For a while, I have been reading on the MTA website that they would be installing new "Compact Fluorescent" lighting in the Fourth Avenue subway tunnels in Brooklyn. However, I have yet to see any such thing happen. Does anyone here know when and if the new lights will be installed? Not that this is a big deal, but if small improvements like this were supposed to be nearly finished by now but have not even started yet, how can we expect bigger, more important projects (like the Second Avenue Subway) to be done in any reasonable period of time?
- Lyle Goldman
Those compact flourescents are great. I wonder why they aren't in most of the system yet, especially the IRT where tunnel lighting is worse (ESP the 7 line between Times Square and HP).
Be patient! bthey are installing wiring, upgrading rooms
and installing conduit and removing asbestos. The CFs are on the way on 4th av brooklyn.
Consumer compact flourescents have their ballasts in the base, so they can be screwed right into any light socket. The fixtures in the tunnels were originally for mercury lamps (which were a more white color, and were replaced a few years ago). Mercury's need ballasts, and therefore required the new wiring and fixtures. I wonder if the flourescents they are using are a special kind that are not self-ballasting, and run off of the mercury ballasts. In other words, why don't they just screw in flourescents everywhere without having to rewire and install bew fixtures?
Of interest is a blue compact bulb that is installed in an area that is not rewired, and is not in a new fixture. It is at 42nd Street on the 8th Av. line, across from the north end of the northbound platform, on the columns between the express tracks. This bulb is a deeper blue than the compact flourescents-- in fact, more like the richer color of blue LED's. LED bulbs exist, and the ones I've seen sold online look just like compact flourescents (the shape and the large base. Inside is a rod from which the LED units are mounted). LED's do not need ballasts, only resistors, since they use such less power. Buth they are hundres of dollars apiece, and the last time I saw, came only in white.
So I wonder if that is a test with LED bulbs. They make more sense than even flourescents
CF's come both as tubes to be inserted in ballasted fictures and as 'screw-in' units. The tube types are generally used where the greater longevity of the ballast is appreciated. (less crap to throw in the landfill when the tube ages out.) Also there are several designs of ballasts, both he older 'magnetic' (essentially a transformer) and the 'electronics' often more efficient.
The ones the TA uses are obviously screw-in, but still, could the ballast still be in the wall mounted box, rather than the base? If not, then I wonder what they need all new fixtures and those ballast boxes for.
Those lights last longer and use less power. There is a savings for the MTA by using them, and if any of you guys out there own your own homes, consider doing the same thing. It is, after all, your money.
Are the compact fluorescent (Note the spelling, guys!) lights more energy-efficient than the mercury vapor bulbs?
- Lyle Goldman
"
Are the compact fluorescent (Note the spelling, guys!) lights more energy-efficient than the mercury vapor bulbs? "
They sure are. The compact fluorescents are either 18 or 22 watts. The mercury vapor bulbs used may be 100 or 175 watts, depending which one was used. Now mulitply that by how many fixtures can be in the tunnel and you'll see the savings.
Also, mercury vapor lamps require a ballast to boost up voltage to ignite the lamp. The compact fluorescents require none. The ballast is built into the lamp base.
The best part is if a compact flourescent isn't available, an oridinary incandescent will work. Can't do that with a mercury vapor lamp.
Bill "Newkirk"
There have been occasions when Home Depot along with LIPA (long island power auth) would offer instant rebates of about $3.oo
Every little bit helps! The cf bulbs come in various shapes, lumins and wattage sizes. They have cool white,warm white and bug yellow.
I just wish one IND station or BMT station was done with warm cf bulbs.
avid
"I just wish one IND station or BMT station was done with warm cf bulbs."
Actually, the warm white bulbs would not be an improvement in subway stations. Better would be the C-50 or C-70 lamps, they are very flatering to colours and expecially flesh tones. It would look like someone opened up the side walk and sunlight was flooding in.
Unfortunatly, they are more expensive, though maybe with a bulk order from the MTA there might be no price difference.
Next to a C-50 a cool white lamp looks like a warm white lamp.
Elias
What are C-50 and C-70? (vapor discharge, fluorescent, etc)
"What are C-50 and C-70? (vapor discharge, fluorescent, etc) "
They are regular flourscent lamps (tubes).
The C-50 and C-70 are color designations just as are Warm-white, cool-white, and others such as grow-lights etc. They are really just numbers taken from the Kelvin rating of the lamp. Regular flourscents burn in the 3000-something Kelvin range, and these burn in the 5000 and 7000 Kelvin ranges respectively.
Elias
That tells me everything. It must be bluish, like some mercury bulbs, and white LED's (which are about 6400K). The higher the color temperature, the bluer it is, an the lower the redder it is. (So the tannish soft/warm white bulbs have a low temperature-- about 2700K). You normally think of red as hot and blue as "cool" (hence "cool white"), but it's actually the other way around. In fact, the very fact that red is seen as hot is because it is the first visible emission as a substance is heated ("red hot")-- showing it's the coolest color. Heat metal, gas, etc. more, it becomes white, an then bluish. A bit of scientific technical info there
Yeah just like with stars, "Red Giants" are cooler than blue stars. Most stars start out as blue ones, then as they cool they become white, yellow, and then swell to red giants. In eons our sun will become a red giant and probably swallow earth. By then hopefully humans will have subways on other planets! :-o
The compact fluorescents are kinda pricy so the rebates do help. However, the TA will order hundreds if not thousands, so the quanity discounts will pay off.
BULBTALK !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I pity the poor guy in the TA who has to fill out thousands of rebate applications, snip out thousands of barcodes, and stuff thousands of envelopes. At least they'll be able to be mailed bulk rate.
What about the "one rebate per household" rule? :D
Does the TA ask for bids or go to the manufactererererr?
avid
"Does the TA ask for bids or go to the manufactererererr?"
I have seen "Rapid Transit Bulbs" listed in the Sylvania, GE and Westinghouse lighting catalogs. Including the ones with the reverse threads (to thwart swiping... do they *still* have those?). Also Lower voltage lamps in the 32 volt range for subway cars, and in the 70 volt range for modern locomotives.
Elias (Bulbtalk)
If they have various shapes and colors, why did they choose the color and shape that they did?
- Lyle Goldman
My guess thats what the vendor replied with in answer to the bid put out by the T.A. It met the T.A. specs. for Bulb, screw type, 110v @17-23 watts, coolwhite, cf, unit 10 gillion each.
avid
> . . . coolwhite
But they're not cool white! They're yellow-orange, almost the same color as the incandescent lights!
- Lyle Goldman
"The compact fluorescents are either 18 or 22 watts. The mercury vapor bulbs used may be 100 or 175 watts,"
The deal with murky vapor is they provide *more* light than what is needed in a subway tunnel. The flourescents are enough.
In theory you *could* use fewer of the murky vaps, but then you'd have more shadows and less even lighting.
Apparently they have put such flourscents in the blue phone phixtures, and they are rather bright.
Elias
> . . . colours . . . phixtures
What are you doing? Are you turning into Jersey Mike now? (:-0)
- Lyle Goldman
Speaking of lighting on 4th Ave, during yesterday's AM commute, it was completely lights-out at Prospect Avenue, though my train did stop to pick up passengers. Anyone know what was going on?
The June 2001 issue of "National Geographic" features a two-page photo of an abandoned locomotive from the gold rush Council City & Solomon River Railroad, a failed early 1900's line near Nome, Alaska. I have a couple of additional images on my web site at www.nook.net/~tomnflo/nomephot.html#716 .
According to the Geo, the three steam locomotives at the site were shipped to the gold fields about 1903, having been recently been retired from the New York City elevated, as the el began electrifying in 1901.
Can anyone help me with details on these delightful little locos, such as manufacturer and type, manufacture date, or any other interesting information?
Tom, Nome, Alaska
Those are "Forney engines." Go here:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/forney.html
Tiny world, ain't it? (grin) I lived in Juneau for a while.
Interesting. We have a Forney Rail Museum in Denver. Until recently, it was housed in the former Denver Tramways power plant. It has since been relocated to the vicinity of the Denver Coliseum, IIRC.
Any of the steamers alive and well out there?
I just read on a different forum that there was a Forney running up in Mass. but apparently it is a narrow guage unit.
Elias
That's closer ... never saw one of those though the locos on the Mount Washington cog railway are delightfully kludgy in their own right. I had a buddy years ago who worked at Steamtown. Took me on board one late night as he was prepping one for the following day's use. A *LOT* of work to wake one of those up. Sure glad I never had to do that kinda stuff. :)
Former NYC Steam Locomotives? Are representatives from any local Railway Museum in this area interested in acquiring it?
If it is a NYC piece it belongs in a Museum....
-Stef
Follow his link to the pictures on his site. I think they'll turn into redbird dust the moment you get a cradle around the boilers. DAMNED pity there's no Forney engines left to display ... but then again, who's left that would know how to stoke one? Remember Ohio.
"DAMNED pity there's no Forney engines left to display ..."
There is a Forney engine from the Chicago "L" system at the Museum of Transport in St. Louis. It's from the South Side Rapid Transit system, and looks gorgeous since MoT did a cosmetic restoration a few years ago.
Cool! None that I'm aware of here in Noo Yawk ... looks like a road trip. :)
Stef, the folks in this area have become very fond of these little locos over the past 98 years, and I think they'd object to their repatriation.
And there really isn't much left of them. The ocean's about a hundred yards away.
Thank you to everyone for the wealth of information on them.
Tom, Nome, Alaska
They are true pieces of history, despite their condition.
Regards,
Stef
Tom,
How many locos are there ? If there are more than one, could they part with just one ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi, Bill,
There are three of them, according to Barris' database, Numbers 21, 159 and 303. One of my employees told me today that he's pretty sure there is an original manufacturer's nameplate in at least one of them, and if I can spare the time this weekend, I'll mosey out there again, climb around and check.
I don't know if there's a "they," but I think Nome people would be very upset if the trains were disturbed. It's an ornery lot up here.
The locos are especially pretty on a rare late summer's day, when, like in the Geo image, the grass has turned yellow. It's not unusual to have brilliant sun on the train site, with an extremely dark sky background. There's a 1975-ish image that I think is still sold as a poster in local gifts shops.
Take care, Tom
How accessible are these engines? It sounds like they are
nearby to where you live out there. Their existence has been
known for several decades, but recently attention has been
called to them again because of the Nat Geo article. There is
also rumored to be an ex-Manhattan Forney in upstate NY.
Do you know to whom these relics belong? It is highly unlikely
that they could be made operable, but they might be restorable
as a static display.
If you can identify a location, be happy to check it out for you. Had no idea we've got any up here, though with the acid levels of the rain being what it is up here, I suspect all we'll find is a red stain on the ground up here.
The benefit of the Nome area is that it's usually frozen over somewhat (especially if they're more than 10 miles inland) and "appear" by magic when the ice cracks. The sea breeze isn't all that pronounced in that area, so there'll definitely be more left up there than up here ... I've always been fascinated by them - rumor was (until dispelled by staff) that the Mount Washington Cog Railroad had Forneys in their past (they did not - they were all custom built) ...
Jeff, they're in really, really bad shape.
They are easily accessible by car, about 45 minutes from Nome on the gravel Nome-Council Highway, which is open between around June 1 and October 1, earlier or later, depending on the snow.
As for who's land their sitting on...I'll inquire.
Tom
The National Geographic pictures made them look pretty good!
I guess rough is in the eye of the beholder, especially in
the railway preservation world. Thanks for the info.
Thanks, Jeff,
And thanks to everyone for the information.
Most people in Nome think those three little locomotives are absolutely beautiful, and I agree.
So much of this area's history has been lost, or rusted away. Nome itself suffered a castrophic fire that destroyed most homes and the entire business district in 1934. These little train remnants are about all we have, and in their present condition are reminders of the thousands of broken dreams suffered by the rugged people who landed here a hundred years ago, most of whom labored to buy a steamship ticket home.
Best wishes, Tom
Does anyone have the TA Rule Book on a Pocket PC or Palm? If you do can you please send it to me
MTAJr1@aol.com
If I put the rule book on top of my palm, it would crack the screen.
>GR&D<
ARTICLE about the possible enforcement of door holding rules.
Peace,
ANDEE
ARTICLE about the possible enforcement of door holding rules.
Peace,
ANDEE
I like the 2am comment.
That early and trains are on a 20 minute headway OR GREATER and the person is right there at the door (not up the stairs, around the corner yelling "Hold the doors").
Maybe it's three too many Mt. Dews, but
I seem to notice that the doors seem to remain open
for LESSER periods of time on any train I have
ridden during the overnights (20 min headways).
Whereas, the norm (30?) seconds door-open time
can be counted during a weekday am/pm rush hour trot..
I thought the rule is 10 seconds?
Rule 97(L)
At 7AM, reverse-peak, 75th ave: 2 seconds, no announcement.
Not everyone follows the rules.
ITS ABOUT TIME!!!!!!!
I'll believe it when I see some jerk at Grand Central getting a summons for holding the doors.
At 2 AM I highly doubt the police would (or should) enforce door holding laws.
A few other stations should be:
Roosevelt Ave
Lexington Ave / 53st IND.
Lexington Ave / 60st BMT.
Union Square IRT.
Times Square IRT.
During rush hour, all of Lexington from 42nd Street to 86th should be watched. I notice especially that 51st (constant stream of people running from the E/F transfer), 59th (busy stop) and 68th (also pretty busy, but mostly people getting off) are problem spots if you want to get anywhere on time.
Such a rule would probably be counter NY State statutes. The judgement call would have to be did the person hold the door for no purpose or was the person exercising his legal right to enter or exit the train.
My guess is that the TA is currently being sued by a dragging victim. They want to shift any culpability towards the victim.
The summonses are a dangerous game for the TA. They really don't want a case to go to the discovery phase in a civil suit. If they issue a summons to some curmudgeon who demands a jury trial with press releases - watch out. They will have opened a Pandora's Box.
The City of New York/NYCT can realise plenty of revenue if this rule was enforced on the E line at stations like WTC, W4th, 34th, 42nd, Lex, and Jamaica Center. And I can back up this statement by virtue of recently completing 26 1/2 consecutive months of working the line doing 4 round trips per day. And I don't want to hear from some bleeding heart that "the conductors don't give us enough time." There is a constant stream of passengers constantly coming down the stairways of these stations from at least 6 AM to 9 PM. Conductors can't stay forever in the station, someone has to to miss the train and have to door shut in his/her face. And at the terminals, when the starting lights come on, time to go, since they've had ample opportunity to board. I was late too many times and had F trains put ahead of me s/b at 75th Ave. and n/b at Fifth Ave. because door holding caused me to miss my merging slot.
I noticed that they have installed a new PA system on the IND platform at 24th/6th. You can actually understand the annoucements being made now. Good show!
Peace,
ANDEE
I noticed that they have installed a new PA system on the IND platform at 34th/6th. You can actually understand the annoucements being made now. Good show!
Peace,
ANDEE
That's the same PA that was there. They just changed the ANNOUNCER from a soft-spoken female to a much louder male.
No, it's not the same PA that was there. There are new speakers all over the place.
Peace,
ANDEE
Humorous Article about bridge flip changes.
Peace,
ANDEE
That was funny, I like that last part "and two new S lines that will just run into each other." And the Gracie Mansion one.
Thanks Andee, that WAS funny!
BMTman
Yes, Doug, I found it most amusing my self. Glad you enjoyed it.
Peace,
ANDEE
What? No discourse on which equipment would serve the Oct 30th special to Camden, NJ? I'm upset! :)
--Mark
It was already decided to be:
this and these
lol
Oh, and here's a pic of one of the "run in" shuttles
Perfect! Thank you for clarifying! :)
--Mark
Is the latter a pic of the LAST train that ran to Camden?
Is the latter a pic of the LAST train that ran to Camden?
No, that's Camden City Hall.
It wants me to sign in.
Then do so. If you haven't registered there, go for it. It's free.
Cool, the S-Train is comming to Camden! Maybe I can get home for that. I wonder if I could get a $1.50 ride to NYC and back.
And I thought the NY times sucked... the shuttles part was funny...
Humor in a New York Times article, what's this World coming to ?
Very enjoyable, thanks for sharing !
Mr t__:^)
I found a picture taken from l994 of the Fort Apache youth center On Fox st. in the South Bronx. I'm wondering if anybody knows if it's still there?
PAL marty- Police Athletic Leauge.
I had a discussion with a friend at 130 Livingston and found out some interesting info regarding what subway equipment is copyrighted and is in the public domain.
I learned that any equipment PRIOR to 1940 is copyright free. This means that if someone wants to produce a model of the R1-9, BMT A/B's, Bluebirds, Green Hornet, D-Types, LoV and HiV's they can do so w/o the knowledge or approval of the MTA/NYCT. However, all R types from R-10 to present were designed by Board of Transportation and/or NYCTA engineers and are thusly copyrighted by MTA/NYCT.
BMTman
If true, it would mean you can still build your models - you just can't sell them without an agreement with MTA...
Right. This is why Nate Gerstein and other 'independent modelers' have produced Bluebirds and D-Types in Ho and O scales but did not require any contract deals with MTA/NYCT.
...who has the copyright on tokens??
:>
The same group that has the copyright on Metrocards....duh!
Why? Are you planning to make your own?
I've seen a few of them ... amazing what folks will do to try & save a buck.
Mr t__:^)
C-mon....these are MODEL TRAINS for crying out loud not prototype cars, who will make millions with model cars ? you'd think they would be happy that a namesake of N.Y.C. is advertised in any way at all....schesss
Copyright laws apply regardless of whether you make $5 or $1 million. Should laws apply only to some people and not others?
jeez louise. It certainly must be summer! Twenty plus years ago we all went around about this when the lawyers at Chessie System had nothing better to do than threaten HO model "manufacturers" with huge lawsuits demanding immense royalties for train kits painted in Chessie schemes. The Wall Street Journal front page article noted that some of these products were made in basements by people with dat jobs making train kits for the love of the hobby. Finally after months of BS Chessie and several other RRs agreed to a nominal fee and I hoped this silliness was over.
I agree with you. I'm not saying MTA should threaten to prosecute over something minor. What I am saying is that, even as a hobbyist, one should obey the law and exercise courtesy and disclose what one is doing if it is for sale. MTA, in turn, should accept a small fee only, or perhaps only require that their logo be tastefully and properly displayed (good free advertising and PR!).
Courtesy is a two-way street. The MTA lawyers are owed it as much as anyone else.
.
General Motors did the same thing in the early '90s, demanding a $25 per unit royalty for automobile and truck models. Miraculously, their demands evaporated when Ford and Chrysler said "make as many as you want, we'll help you make sure they're accurate".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In this country they apply the laws as they feel and twist and bend them by interpretation depending on the situation and who is involved. I've just gotten badly burned [only to confirm what I've felt for years] but I won't trouble you guys with a mess I got myself into...I will say it was NOT justice.
This thread makes me worry that I could be sued for selling the set of R12,15,17,21,22,26 cars that I built myself for copyright infringement. Unlikely they'd do it but technically, yes.
Why do they "get" some people and not others? How about anti-trust laws for example. They told Checker Motors who owned National Transportation Company [taxi fleets] that it was an anti trust violation to supply their own fleets with cabs of their manufacture. Baloney...nobody cared for years that the Pennsylvania RR built most of its own locomotives, which were good ones I'd add.
Look at the HUGE mega-merged railroads which hold a lot of states captive to one freight RR, these and mega business in general to me are anti-trust violations. Greyhound controls almost all intercity bus transit. Nobody really cares.
Corporations have gotten way too big, I see them as anti-trust violations but what I think won't change squat.
There's always a possibility that someone could make a model of the entire transit system with models of modern cars and charge $10 for people to see it. Once the MTA hears that money is being made and they aren't getting it...
This has been an evolving trend over years. It used to be that operators and manufacturers were wildly flattered to have their cars modeled or locomotives, cars and decals for them in company colors and with company logos.
Of all the manufacturers of models I knew, a surprising number of them (included well-known names) were "mom-and-pops" for whom sales were a meager or supplemental income.
As to the issue at hand, if licensing fees weren't reasonable, it might be worthwhile to see which designs were produced under the old law (28/28 copyright), if the copyright was ever registered and, if so, it was ever renewed. If not, a lot of equipment designs (up to R44 or so?) could be in the public domain right now.
Also, there is an issue of fair use. If there weren't, the MTA could be sending Dave a bill for publishing pictures of their copyrighted R-142s. Also, you can't copyright history. It might be possible to produce models of subway cars (without implying official sanction) based on outwardly observable features. This might have to be decided in court but the MTA's ace in the hole on this issue is that, if they did take you to court, who do you think has the deeper pockets?
...who do you think has the deeper pockets...
MTA's lawyers are probably on retainer, so it probably won't cost them a dime to fight a perceived copyright infringement.
Of course, if they tried something really aggressive--say I wanted to reissue the BMT Standard and they wanted a royalty on the basis that they are successor to the BRT/BMT and I was trading on the fact that one of these cars is in the TA museum, they could possibly be countersued and their deep pockets might work against them in a jury trial.
Not an attorney, but I've heard of such things.
Paul,
Great idea! How about re-running the ABs? Also, C'mon everyone, let's get real, if the MTA was really considered a business, they would have gone Chapter 11 a long time ago.
The MTA is a publicly owned and run agency, so if they really want to be silly asses and demand copyright protection and royalties on their rolling stock when it comes to mom and pop model operations, why not once again publicize this and show how petty the MTA can be. If's its an agency for the public, why not find out how the taxpayers really feel about this!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Will you reissue a 'o'scale BMT standards set hmmmmm ?
Never did a Standard in O Scale. My heart aches at your suggestion, because it would truly be a beautiful thing.
I have the technical side to do such a thing, but I've been out of the trade a long time. It's improbable Seiichi Kumata (pres. of the co. that made the Silver Leaf Standard on contract) is still around, so I'd be starting off new. Besides, when the original HO Standard was built it was one of only two U.S. design rapid transit cars ever made commercially--now there are a number of manufacturers who could pick up the torch, if they chose to.
I received the silver leaf publications you id in the 60's i even visited the the places you had photographed in the staten island book,the old building that was almost collapsing i didn't go in just outside,
I still have those books and look at them every so often still in mint condition though....
i even visited the the places you had photographed in the staten island book
Others have told me they use the SIRT book as a tour guide of the system, since it's not that physically different, 36 years later.
I wonder what has happened to the approx. 800 SIRT books bought ny SIRT commuters...?
There is a civil service title series for lawyer >G< they work for the MTA.
More absurd Intellectual Property abuse!
The only thing which should be copyright-able is the actual
blueprint drawings. To say that someone can not make a model,
photograph or painting of an object which has been designed and
purchased with taxpayer money to serve a public purpose defies
the notion of fair use.
Even though they abandoned the application after five years of trying, at one point the MTA tried to register a subway map-like trademark covering the following goods and services:
(ABANDONED) IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: paper products; namely, gift wrapping paper, greeting cards, note paper, post cards, memo boards, photo albums, correspondence holders, paper coasters, paper napkins, paper table cloths; un-mounted photographs; calendars; posters; souvenir paper weights. FIRST USE: 19941000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19941000
(ABANDONED) IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: toys; namely, model subway cars, trains, trolleys and buses; board games, jigsaw puzzles and video game cartridges. FIRST USE: 19950400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950400
(ABANDONED) IC 020. US 002 013 022 025 032 050. G & S: photo frames; ornamental novelty buttons. FIRST USE: 19941000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19941000
How do you like them apples?
Paul, and lets not forget that the MTA/NYCT has the copyrights to all of the logos for the subway route markings (numbers/letters).
BMTman
Paul, and lets not forget that the MTA/NYCT has the copyrights to all of the logos for the subway route markings (numbers/letters).
I honestly and truly don't believe those would hold up in court. They are way too generic. What is there copyrightable about them? The shape? (round) The color? (not unique) The typeface? (There is no copyright in typefaces in the U.S.).
If I were to take a route number off their website and use it maybe they could claim an intellectual property right. But if I create the same thing in Illustrator from scratch, I don't see where they can claim a copyright.
OTOH, they might try trademarking the route designations. In that case, if I build my own Eighth Avenue Subway under the current one, and put my own "A" train on it, they could probably sue me on the trademark bases of dilution, passing off and confusion.
Paul,
Before you go off and do that, you might want to check with an attorney who understands copyrights.
I did. You can't use any MTA symbology or logos for profit (you can for personal use) even if you draw them yourself, any more than you can sell items with the Campbell's Soup Co. or Ford or whatever logo on them, even if you drew them yourself.
Do yourself a favor. Don't offer legal advice unless you're admitted to the bar - and talk to a lawyer.
I make no pretense to being a lawyer. This is a public forum and these are my opinions. Anyone who actually did something based on what was said on the Intenet and went to the judge and said that I told 'em it was OK probably needs someone help more skilled than that of a mere lawyer. ;-)
But I have a decent layman's knowledge of intellectual property based on work over a period of years.
Visit www.uspto.gov and you will find the basis for my not using Campbell's Soup Co. or Ford's symbols because they are claimed as trademarks and are, in fact, registered trademarks.
I don't see anywhere that the MTA claims trademark protection for its route symbols.
Now if we're talking copyright this is a different ball of wax. Copyrights are intended to protect published material with some level of uniqueness and some intellectual originality. I can't publish a history of the Brighton Line, for example, and then sue anyone who uses the same facts in another book if they come from another source. In fact, I can't even sue them if they use some of my facts in their own work, assuming the use falls within the bounds of fair use. And, yes, I've had that on the advice of somone with an Esq. after his name.
If the MTA somehow believes that it has a copyright, as opposed to trademark interest in these symbols, I'd like to hear how.
One thing you could do is write to MTA asking them to explain it. They'll write you back, and you can take their answer to an attorney for a second opinion.
Did Andy Warhol get flak from the Campbell's Soup people for his paintings that represented Campbell's Soup cans?
Paul, I believe it is the combination of using those specific colors with those specific numbers or letters (in Helevtica BF) that are copyrighted by MTA. All of the T-shirts and keychains that are sold in the Transit Museum gift shops have copyright notations for them.
BMTman
I understand, Doug. The T-shirts and the keychains with the designs are copyrighted, but I'm still looking for the basis of copyrighting the symbol itself, if this is in fact what they're doing. The fact that uses of the symbol in a commercial product are copyrighted doesn't presuppose that all the elements of it are also copyrighted.
In my (disclaimer-not legal-duh!) experience, the route symbols themselves would be the subject of a service mark, as, e.g., "Symbol designating the A train service of the New York City Transit Authority." I don't see they have made an attempt to do this.
If you could lay claim to all sorts of intellectual property through simple copyright claims, there wouldn't be any need for trademarks and patents, would there?
[In my (disclaimer-not legal-duh!) experience, the route symbols themselves would be the subject of a service mark, as, e.g., "Symbol designating the A train service of the New York City Transit Authority." I don't see they have made an attempt to do this.]
Well, Paul, apparently they have but not in your complete wording: As I type this to the site, I went and pulled out my keychain which is a mini-version of the 14 Street-Union Square signage (including L,N,R,4,5,6 lines). In a micro-sized type face in the lower right-hand side is "(c) copyright New York City Transit Authority".
BMTman
Well, no that's not quite true. Even a public agency has the right and legitimate interest in promoting and regulating appropriate use of intellectual property.
But many governmental publications do not have copyrights. For example, the CDC often publishes articles marked "In the public domain. No copyright applies." The government wants people to freely distribute and reproduce the material.
Of course, the ethical thing to do is to credit the agency for any material you use, even if you don't have to pay for it.
I would have to agree, Jeff. BUT, the MTA (like any other large corporation) is in business to make $$$$. Hence, they set down these copyright rulings involving their equipment -- grandfathering in all equipment that was designed/built during the Board of Transportation years.
Any equipment designed and built by the separate companies prior to BdofT (BRT/BMT, IRT, IND) are in the public domain as far as MTA/NYCT is concerned.
BMTman
Hence, they set down these copyright rulings involving their equipment -- grandfathering in all equipment that was designed/built during the Board of Transportation years.
They can only claim copyright in older drawings if they were published with the copyright notice. Even then the copyright would expire after 28 years unless renewed at the Copyright Office.
Now the contract books I've seen do not carry copyright notices. Not on the printed pages. Not on the contract drawings. The union bug is there. R. G. Welch's signature is there. No copyright. So on what basis does the MTA claim copyright protection? 'Cause they say so?
And, I'll clue you in to something else. The drawings form the '60s-'70s (maybe even recent ones--I just haven't seen) say "CITY OF NEW YORK acting by the NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY." So it seems to be if there was an intellectual property right, it would be the City's, not the MTA's.
Good point, Paul. Perhaps this is a subject in need of deeper investigation after all...
BMTman
ok so lets say i am the most talented model train modeler in the usa ! then i make every train in the subway fleet to scale !! then on the internet i offer them for sale etc.. now some nut from the mta with the F B I C I A D E A police etc man they are a comin' after me man !!
Geeeeeeeez ! I am scared sick !! ( kiss my grits ).....?.........lol.!!
How much would it cost to clone a HiV, or an R1? approximately? LOL!
Does anyone know how this affects photographers.....if they take a hard line view, they can demand a property release, then, on any photo with a subject that includes a modern car, or a logo or route marker.
Correct.
I should point out that the MTA has licensed the right to use the subway map and symbology in a computer game, and although the market has not yet accepted such a game, anyone else using it for that purpose would first have to obtain that (exclusive) license from the licensee.
Are you an attorney, Ron?
Touche, Paul.
Really? Even if their by-laws on use of the NYC Transit Authority property indicate that "photography w/o ancillary equipment or lighting is permitted" provided you don't go into unauthorized areas?
--Mark
Technically speaking, there is nothing wrong with taking the photograph itself. If you intended to sell it as a print or as part of a publication, you generally need a property release if objects that appear in it as the subject that are recognizeable as private property, logos and car numbers, and such for example.
Peter Dougherty, if you're around could you shed any insights on this subject vis-a-vis your experience with the map book?
Technically speaking, there is nothing wrong with taking the photograph itself. If you intended to sell it as a print or as part of a publication, you generally need a property release if objects that appear in it as the subject that are recognizeable as private property, logos and car numbers, and such for example.
This is getting silly. On what basis are you making this assertion? If this were true, every book, magazine and newspaper in the country with such identifiable items would have to seek massive numbers of property releases. I've been in publishing and printing for a long time, and I have never seen any such releases sought or asked for.
I recently traveled part of the city with a film crew, who are super sensitive about permissions. They only sought releases from people who actually spoke on camera, if case that might be used. There were no releases for passerbys and certainly none for filming incidental private property.
You bring up a fair point....I should have clarified that statement further. Releases are very rarely needed for editorial work or newspapers. Nor are they needed, as you pointed out, for all those passerbys, because they are in public and not your subject. And so it's no surprise that you have never seen a release requested.
There are certain situations in which they are asked for and many buyers of photographs that prefer and even require them, and so I wonder how the issue of the MTA's copyrights over cars and logos plays out in the situations that someone might ask for a release. It seems very likely to me that even those prone to request a release might not ask for one in the case of the subway, seeing as it is a mode of public transportation and that the MTA wouldn't care either.
I've wanted to post some things on the board for a while. I had an opportunity to post some of the things on July 20th and 23rd. I was online, but didn't do it. I had similar opportunities on July 30th and 31st, though I wasn't online on the 31st. Well, August 1st will be the day I will post these things.
When you respond to these things, I would appreciate it if you would do one of the following.
1. If you're responding to only one of the topics below, copy and paste the topic name (it's in all caps) into the subject line before you post the message.
2. If you're responding to more than one of the topics, please quote the parts of this message you're responding to (either inside quote marks or square brackets, or in a different font style, like italics). That way, it'll be easier for everyone to understand what you're referring to.
Thank you. Now, here are those messages.
STRANGE R46 SIGHTING
On July 20th, I was on an E train. I saw a train of R46 cars on the local track next to the E train. That train looked a bit weird as the E train was passing it. I got off the E train at Continental. I waited a few minutes for that train to enter the station. The front of the train had two spotlights brighter than the headlights. The lead car was 5968. The electronic signs were all set to "SPECIAL." The train passed through the station and went on to D6 track. What was the purpose of this so-called special train?
STRANGE R32 SIGHTING
I saw a pair of R32 cars, 3674 and 3675, leading an N train into the DeKalb Avenue
station. A strange thing concerning them. On the outside, the rollsigns appear to be set to a combination that suggests it's an A train running from 207th Street to Lefferts Blvd. However, on the inside, the signs are set so that it correctly indicates it's an N train running between Ditmars and Coney Island. I saw that the reason they look that way is because that boards were taped from the inside to the windows. That is a strange sight, isn't it? By the way, I got a picture of one of these cars at Canal Street, and another at Lexington Avenue, with a piece of evidence in each picture that proves that neither picture was taken in IND stations. These, and other pictures documenting the Manhattan Bridge Flip, will appear in Transit Pictures 26.
R142A'S CAN'T SAY "W"
I was on a 6 train of R142A cars on July 23rd, and the announcement for 59th Street failed to say W in the list of transfers. The conductor manually had to say "transfer here to the 4, 5, N, R, and W trains."
It has been more than a week since the Manhattan Bridge flip. I have not been in Manhattan since the 23rd. So I wonder, do the R142/142A cars now say "W" and "Q" on the list of transfers for the Broadway line, or do they still mention the transfers as they were pre-flip?
NEW PRINTED & ONLINE TIMETABLES
I also want to inform you that the new printed timetables are out. I got the new (E) train timetable on Monday at the Jamaica Center station. I also got the timetables for the (Q), (W), and (B)/(D)/(S)/(S) lines online. On the (E) schedule's cover page, the bullet is centered, and takes up about 1/4 the height of the page. The word "Timetable" is beneath it in a color bar that takes up the width of the page and is in the color of the bullet. On the cover page for the (Q) (and I would assume on the 1/9 and J/Z), there are two bullets, which are a bit smaller. The diamond Q bullet is to the right of the circle Q bullet. On the 6th Avenue timetable, there is a map on the front similar to the one on the centerfold of the "Manhattan Bridge Service Changes" brochure.
MRM'S NOW ARRIVING
These smaller MetroCard Vending Machines, about the size of a phone booth, are now being installed in many subway stations. I know of three stations which have these machines working:
61 St-Woodside
34 St-Herald Square (32 St/B'way entrance)
Rockefeller Center
What You CAN Do on MRM's
Get and refill cards
Trade In/Combine cards*
Get Card Info (serial #, expiration date, money and time on the card)*
Pay with credit, debit, and ATM cards.
What You CAN NOT Do on MRM's
Pay with cash or coins
The items marked with an asterisk are the functions on these machines that I would find most useful. I use credit cards on extremely rare occasions.
WHAT'S WITH THE W'S?
Anyone notice those new (W) bullets on both the station signs and the R68 rollsigns? It looks like they took an old (M) logo, colored the M black and the circle yellow, then flipped the whole thing upside down. It looks nothing like the (W) bullet on my site.
Well, if it looks like a W, it'll be recognized as a W.
I also apologize if any of this has been posted before, especially anything concerning the W train. I've been away for a week and wasn't able to get online during that time. Since I am allowed only one hour on these library computers, I couldn't read a week's worth of messages, even on the compressed message index. I also had a lot of e-mail to read.
I saw these same cars too. When I saw it all rollsigns on both sides had been covered by the boards, several of which were falling off. Did you also notice the bulkheads of both cars had been repainted a slightly different shade?
I have a picture of 3675 at Canal Street (N line). Take a look.
Can't read it very well...does that say A train?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, very clearly. I can tell by the text of the rollsign reading:
Washington Heights - 8th Av. Express.
Railfan Pete.
If the signs inside the car are displayed correctly, then the problem is simply bad ordered end sign curtains. Here is another case on SubTalk of car defects being reported rather than calling the TA customer complaint number so that they will get properly repaired. Employees putting this kind of defect on the car defect sheets means it won't get repaired unless they get a customer complaint. That's how it works in the TA.
Correction: side sign curtains. Of course, end sign curtains are a thing of the past on the R32.
That's not a rollsign you're seeing. Those are cards placed between the glass and the rollsign. You can sortof tell by looking closely at the northern destination.
Nothing special about it. The train was out of service. Don't take every sign seriously.
That's what I thought, but he mentioned something about spotlights on the front...
The computers will not be updated until November reflecting the new transfer opportunities.
You're doing the 6 Line for BVE? I have a R142A train for you. I just need sounds. Can something be worked out?
The only sounds I need are the following:
... Buhre Avenue
... East 143rd Street-St. Mary's Street
Each of which preceeded by "This is a Manhattan-bound 6 train. The next stop is..."
I have Brooklyn Bridge-bound announcements for both the local and express.
I also have sounds of the doors openiong and closing, complete with "stand clear of the closing doors, please" and the doorbell. A lot to fit in 5 seconds.
I don't have a sound recorder. But you're free to use my R142A. The beta is at
r68a_5200.tripod.com
You can send me the sounds to my e-mail address preferably in wav format. I'll apply them to the train when I get back from China. I'll be back Aug 21st.
Like I said before, the R142/142a's will not be program to say the new tranfers until late fall(November?). Instead, C/R's on the 2 and 6 lines are supposd to have these cards indicating the correct transfers at the new locations with the Q,W,S, and Grand St Shuttle depending on the time of day. When they arrived at a station involving a transfer with the Q,W,S, or Grand St Shuttle, the C/R is supposed to make a manual annoucement.
What about middays at Fulton, Borough Hall, and Atlantic? Not that it seems to matter -- I haven't heard an R-142 conductor yet make manual announcements where appropriate.
How hard could it be to update the automated announcements? (If it takes more than a few minutes, that's a design flaw.)
And why does the overnight (local) 2 announce the C at 59th? When the 2 runs local, the C doesn't run at all. (It correctly omits the B.) For that matter, why do the announcements call it a "Bronx-bound 2 express train" when it's making all local stops?
why do the announcements call it a "Bronx-bound 2 express train" when it's making all local stops?
It's pretty simple. The R142(A)'s automated announcements are made and produced according to the name of the line that it refers to.
For example: consider the 7th Av. Subway lines,
1,2,3,9
The #1,9 trains are 7th Av. local lines because they run local full-time (except for service diversions, etc.)
The #2,3 trains are 7th Av. Exp lines because they run express in Manhattan during normal hours. (Exp in all 3 boroughs rush hours only in certain directions) So it is debatable to say "A Bronx-bound 2 local because it's not local in regular service.
Automated announcements are not available in immense quantities. The conductor shouldn't take the job of switching back and forth the announcers, because:
1) It's twice the job to try and switch it during late nights.
2) When the train arrives its destination, it makes the next conductor confused as to whether or not he/she switched it.
3) If you've ever seen a conductor's cab in an R142(A) car, have you noticed the swtiches and buttons? They are not as easy as someone may think. It's not just pushing a button and automatically it can say "a local train".
Are the automated announcers responsible for stating the transfers too? I thought that was the clear job of the conductors. on a Brooklyn Bridge bound #6 train at 68 St. - Hunter College thru 51 St. Lexington Av., the automated announcements were VERY AUDIBLE AND CLEAR both on the inside and outside of the trains and platforms. But the conductor CLEARLY stated the transfer trains without question or disbelief in the accuracy of the transfer trains.
: )
Railfan Pete.
umm...UH HUH
Wrong.
The train was making local stops. The announcements correctly announced all the local stops. The announcements correctly omitted the B transfer at 59th (but erroneously included the C). There's no reason for the announcements to call it an express train, especially since anyone who isn't used to riding at night will probably assume that it's running express as usual and will unnecessarily wait ten minutes for the next 1.
Transfers are also announced automatically. Since they haven't yet been updated with the recent changes, the C/R is supposed to make manual announcements where appropriate, although I haven't actually heard this done.
Those MRM's were here for some time now. They are also four of them side by side at 34 St. - Penn Sta., on the 7th Av. lines ONLY.
They've been around for about 2 months max I would say. Every option is the same for the regular MVM's except you can only use Debit/Credit/ATM cards to purchase your MetroCard.
Also, I read a funny notice on a 'Service Advisory' board that is used by MTA and it read:
Using debit or credit? Try the little guy.
And four of those 'little-guys' were there at the station right adjacent to the sign.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Does anybody know which tracks from Penn Station lead to the track that goes up north and connects with the Metro North at Spuyten Duyvil? Used by trains e.g. Empire Service, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, Lake Shore Limited?
The trains that usually do this leave from tracks 5 and 6.
Here is a track map of the Penn Station area, I believe that "track 2 main" is the one that goes to the Riverside tunnel and later join MNRR at Spuyten-Duyvil.
Is/was that "diagonal platform" ever used for passenger service?
No, mail and X-Press only.
DOES LIRR ever use Lines 1 and 2? Engineers say they do, but Transit Transit makes it sound like they only use line 3 and 4. They said "two are used exclusively by the Long island Railroad" "The other 2 are shared with Amtrak and NJ Transit". But if line 3 and 4 are LIRR only lines, how is it LIRR trains get stuck behind Amtrak all the time! there has got to be a way that they use Line one and 2
I have been on LIRR trains that have used Line 1 outbound. They sometimes use it during rush hour when there is heavy congestion. At lighter times they stick to 3 and 4.
Amtrak crosses into the LIAR main line at HAROLD interlocking.
They use them every day during the rush hour. Generally speaking, trains which leave from tracks 13-16 will use line 1 during the PM rush. Trains arriving on 13-16 during the AM rush generally come in off of line 2.
Off-peak it is rare to use line 1 or 2 for the LIRR, but it does happen.
When they say lines 3 and 4 are used exclusively by the LIRR, they mean that Amtrak and NJT don't use 3 and 4 -- not that LIRR doesn't use 1 and 2. Even then, they're not correct (but it is very infrequent).
CG
Charles is correct. Off hours you will see a Amtrak on track 13, but rush hour 12 is their highest number.
Mr t__:^)
LIRR uses all 4 lines our of Penn.
Hey neat!!! Where'd you get such a clean map of the station? Do you have any more of the LIRR or NEC?
Man, I didn't realize Penn was so gosh darn sloppy. looks like it could use a real cleanup of the track. Hey, it's almost 100 years old, time to rethink it, in light of how things have changed over the years.
Looks like that was taken from http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/
Way to go Henry, thanks!!
Wow, that's Double Slip heaven! If you think it's complicated now you should take a look at my 1950's diagram b4 the West Side yard was built.
Here's what I'd do to Penn, in a nutshell:
1) Wipe out Trk 100,90, etc in the northern yard there. It's practically unused, and it would free up useable space.
2) Slide the current LIRR ladder track west a bit, so as to allow and extension/repositioning of the current platforms. This would occupy some of the space created by removing the above.
3) Create 2 short stubs by extending 20 and 21 westward. This would allow the LIRR to stuff either protect power, or any minor work equipment, or whatever, in case it was needed.
4) Cut the wisth on platform 10, use the space to slide Trk 18 northward, and increase the size of the notorious Trk 17 platform. Shift that platform west slightly and straighten it out. Also remove the switch to it that allows acess to Line 2 and 1.
5) Remove the diagonal platform. Buy up the parking lot along W 31st street by the corner of 10th, and excavate the area and use the space to create a new yard for NJT, to feed/store/layover trains. This will reduce the useage of the east river tunnels
6) demolish the 2 buildings on the east side of platform 6, extand that platform east to get rid of the taper at the west end.
7) See if it's possible to shift the southern ladder track west slightly to get rid of the tapers at the west ends of platforms 1-5.
8) In general, try to straighten all the platforms and ensure they'll be able to hold a 12 cars train without any major door gaps, as exist now.
9) Operationally, restrict Amtrak to tracks 10 - 13. there's no reason for them to be platforming trains on 15 durring the rush. (the skeptic in me says that if the Farley project ever opens, the LIRR's going to be bombarded with stuff on tracks 15 and 16)
10) Optimise the station for commuter service, and short dwell intercity trains. Stop laying up the Long Distance Special in the station, and quite the 45 minute load times. Penn's bad enough now, it's only going to get worse as NJT, the LIRR expand service, and MN tries to move in.
If anyone is interested and is a less cautious railfan, We will be venturing into the Riverside "freedom" tunnel on ________, E-mail me if interested.
Looking forward to some photos of the wall paintings. Are you planning on creating one while you're there ?
Mr t__:^)
'Metronet', the name of one of the groups bidding for the JNP sector of London Underground (Jubilee/Northern/Piccadilly) has announced that they intend to run an additional 12 trains over the Piccadilly Line. The 1983 stock (batch 2) could yet see a return to use or perhaps the 1973 driving cars will run with 1983 trailer cars....one worth watching....
:^)
Rob
London UK
I am currently in the Assistant Conductor Training Program. I did not know anyone, I just kept sending my resume, it took a few years, but here I am. For this positon they want customer service experience, money handling, GOOD CREDIT (yes, they do a credit check when they call you). On March 1, 2001 they brought in 1,300 applicants for a basic math and vocabulary test and exploratory interviews, cut the list and brought the surviviors to Jamaica for interviews, applicants getting by that interview where brought to Hillside for Signals and Definitions Overview (You are given 3 weeks to study). Must be able to get an 80% on the 60 definitions in the Rule Book (verbatim) and 100% on a signal test, 79 signals(aspects and indications - verbatim), this was just to get in the training program. We have 27 trainees in the class. This program is 3 months and you have to get 80% or better on 5 tests given (Book of Rules Midterm and Final, Air Brake, Ticketing and PTEP). This is all non-compensated.
Most of the Locomotive Engineers are hired form within the railroad, very few come off the street. I will apply after one year as an A/C and that goes for anyone with LIRR, you need one year in your craft.
If anyome has any questions I will happy to try to answer them.
Could you expamd on what 'ticketing' information you are taught/required to know etc?Thanks
Regards
Rob:^)
London UK
(conductor here in England)
Basically, fair zones, types of tickets that are used, cash reports, cutting tickets on the train and charging proper transportation and when certain schedules are in effect what tickets are valid. Also, how to charge step-up fares. I am currently in the Air Brake portion of training, tickets will be the next subject and it last for three weeks.
Rob,
What railroad are you a Conductor on? What are the crewing requirements like? For example, on the LIRR, all trains (except a handful of listed exceptions) have a crew of 3--engineer, conductor, brakeman with additional "collectors" as needed. The crew travels together for the entire work day. Is that like your situation?
Wow. Four years just from sending a resume everyday? Forget it. Don't have the patience to wait. However, my uncle is a engineer for Metro North, maybe he can give me the hookup.
That might be your best bet. To think about it does not seem like four years. I have been Corporate Legal Assistant for the last 7 years since I have graduated college making pretty decent money, so I was really never thinkng about the job and actually when I got called, the last resume that I sent must have been almost 8 months prior to getting called. It was a pleasant surprise to get called and know I get to do what I have always wanted to do with job security and a great pension.
Thanks for sharing with us, we don't have very many SubTalkers who work for the LIRR, so it will be interesting to hear your prespective on things that come up here from time to time.
I wish you the very best of luck !
Mr t, a colleague from a bus company ... non-operating department.
Just noticed 4 Pelham Redbirds on the Livonia El heading towards Livonia Yard. The consist was ike this:
Redbird-Redbird-WorkTrain-Redbird-Redbird
I have a job out of the yard later on today so Ill see what car #' arrived there if they're still there.
I wonder if that's the new signal dolly train. 8600/1 and 8634/5?
I saw that one yesterday heading downtown on the express lexington, I was waiting for an R142A on at GCT...I was like wtf, and I looked and I thought it was going to the scrapper....Yes those were the numbers.
The motorless signal dolly found new cars to pull it? Are the old R-22 work horses on the way to the scrap heap?
Sounds like it's time for those Redbirds to be given the Maintenance of Way Paint Treatment.
-Stef
Dolly says yes.
Oh yes, I'm sure she does.
-Stef
If this has been mentioned before, please excuse. Anyone who takes the 1,2,3 or 9 from the 34th Street station has to have noticed the horrible stench of rotting garbage there. Depending on the airflow and the tempature, it can literally make a person physically sick. The question is, who can this be reported to, and can anything be done about it? It seems amazing that for the number of passengers going through this station, and the length of time this situation has existed (at least 2-3 months), it has not been fixed. Forget the question of what caused this, like maybe a garbage truck emptying its load down a flight of stairs.
If this has been mentioned before, please excuse. Anyone who takes the 1,2,3 or 9 from the 34th Street station has to have noticed the horrible stench of rotting garbage there. Depending on the airflow and the tempature, it can literally make a person physically sick. The question is, who can this be reported to, and can anything be done about it? It seems amazing that for the number of passengers going through this station, and the length of time this situation has existed (at least 2-3 months), it has not been fixed. Forget the question of what caused this, like maybe a garbage truck emptying its load down a flight of stairs.
There are a number of fast-food places right above the station along the east side of Seventh Avenue. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the smell (I've noticed it too) is related to those places.
I have noticed this too. It literally smells like shit walking on the new uptown 1 concourse to the stairs to the Penn Sta. passageway -- like a hundred horses took a dump there. Hold your breath.
I haven't noticed anything just yet at Penn. Everything seems and smells just fine. It's that maybe if you go back 'around the alley' or at the edge or corner of a station platform you can smell the stench.
Also, at 5 Av. / 53rd St., Queens Plaza, ... they keep a load of garbage bags at the west side (end of platforms), but commuters don't groan or complain about any type of stench.
Railfan Pete.
I haven't noticed anything just yet at Penn. Everything seems and smells just fine. It's that maybe if you go back 'around the alley' or at the edge or corner of a station platform you can smell the stench.
The smells seem to be the worst on the uptown 1/9 platform, presumably because it's directly below the fast food joints. You also won't notice the smells all the time. They seem to come and go, though based on what factors I don't know.
They really need to do something with all the homeless people that stay in the 32nd/8th ave street entrance. It smells really bad there.
It's also evident when you walk by the sidewalk grates in front of the fast food joints on the east side of 7th between 33rd and 34th. It was actually worse last year before Wendys moved out...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The new Wendy's near 34/8th is so much smaller. I liked the old one much better.
"The new Wendy's near 34/8th is so much smaller. I liked the old one much better."
There is a second floor dining room.
Bill "Newkirk"
The new Wendy's near 34/8th is so much smaller. I liked the old one much better.
There is a second floor dining room.
Somehow, the words "dining room" and "Wendy's" just don't go well together!
It still seems smaller.
The problem stems from the fact that all those food places put their leaky, slimy, garbage on top of those grates, when they put it out for collection. Seems to me if the TA powerwashed the area below the grates once a month they problem would go away. This could easily be done by the station cleaning crews while on their regular duties. Oh, and of course bill the guilty establishments for this cleaning.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not to mention the fact that the rodents and the bugs get easy pickings from the trash piles that are generated at these places.
You feed them, you breed them.
"Not to mention the fact that the rodents and the bugs get easy pickings from the trash piles that are generated at these places.
You feed them, you breed them."
And then they die and add to the aroma....
Elias
I think that's been a regular summer occurrence for a few years, but I don't know if it's worse or not now. I used to take the 1/9 uptown from 34th during the PM rush about 4-5 years ago and it always stunk then on a hot day.
CG
On my way home last night, I was talking to a fellow C/R on the 2 and she mentioned the same thing to me as we passed 34St. I know 28St on the uptown 1 stinks as hell as well.
It's the LIRR's performance.
;-D Andrew
That stench is just a sign that heypaul has returned to New York from his sabbatical in Fart Lauderdale....;-)
BMTman
It literally smells like shit walking... (Keystone Pete, message 246062)
I believe heypaul rides a bicycle, so it must be somebody else.
Hmmmm, I thought I told Andee to lay off the Bean Burritos.....;-)
Mmmmmmm....Bean Burritos
Peace,
ANDEE
A) anyone recall the dave letterman skit a few years back - it was either on penn station or port authority at night and what goes on there - the final bit was a scene of a guy carrying bit gallon jugs of liquid around 430 am... which of course was described as "Urine arrives!"
B)i wonder if they got trash tucked behind some door there - recently, at steinway on the g-r, i came across a similar foul smell - coming from a room towards the front of the manhattan bound plat, where workers were dragging trash bags up the steps - there had to be at least 50 of them...
Is that not a fire hazard?
Perhaps the FDNY's got an inspecter that wouldn't be pleased to know if such a thing is right in penn station, if such a room/area may be there.
lord knows they gave my company hell when they came to get someone out of an elevator and found a hallway half filled with boxes. i didn't ask if we got a ticket for that... ...especially considering i called them to fetch the character in the elevator...
C)as my crotchity old boss might say after showing up at the shop the morning after a homeless person camped out front: "We got anything to wash away the bum juice with?"
His handle was subwayrider or subway rider or subway-rider, I don't know. He was very nice, and we were both looking out the front of a redbird 6 *gasp* and the door to the cab was open, and he started talking railfan stuff to him and I chimed in and I asked if he was from Subtalk...Well whatever you all get the point...
My question is, is there only one S from 21st-Queensbridge to B-L? I had to wait an awfully long time to take my first ride on this...Heh
>>My question is, is there only one S from 21st-Queensbridge to B-L? I had to wait an awfully long time to take my first ride on this...Heh<<
60 R-32's are on the line...
There are four 10 car trains in service on the shuttle, running on 10 minute headways during middays and 12 to 15 minute headways during rush hours.
Less headways during the rush?!
Ah...The MTA at it's best...
Two possible reasons:
1 - Increased F service makes all that switching and merging at W4th and 47-50 a tad annoying.
2 - Because they have to use longer trains than anticipated, one set has to be taken OOS during the rush hour to cover another line (R?).
A third possible reason:
One of the purposes of the Queensbridge shuttle is to provide service to 6th Avenue. With improved F rush hour service, less supplemental (shuttle) service is warranted. As a side effect, Queensbridge gets less service as well.
I'll go with reason 1. There are four sets running even during rush hours, they're just spaced farther apart with the worst gap being 17 minutes (an 0802 arrival at Queensbridge followed by an 0819).
About a month ago, in a thread that began when someone announced that the Museum had the line-symbol pins, someone else mentioned that there was a store in the Village that sells t-shirts with the line symbols on them.
The person who posted the info about the store mentioned that, unlike the official shirts, the shirts sold at this store have the line symbol alone, without the phony "destinations" (like "Manhattan to Brooklyn" or whatever) on them. This person also mentioned that they have shirts with the J train symbol.
Where was that store again? I seem to remember Broadway and Astor, but I am not sure.
(Question about searching: I tried to find this info by searching the Subtalk archives, but I was unsuccessful. I looked for for all posts by me for "Several Eons", because I knew that I had contributed to the thread about the pins. However, it only returned posts from the last few weeks, and the post in the thread about the pins was not among them. Is there a problem with the search, or did I not use it correctly?)
Ferdinand Cesarano
The Store is Yellow Rat Bastard on Broadway in the Village!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Thanks for the name of the store.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Sorry about that, I guess it's not quite intuitive. I'll see if I can't make it more logical. But in the meantime if you want to go way back use the begin/end date pull downs to select the date range (and check the lil box next to the pulldowns).
...use the begin/end date pull downs to select the date range (and check the lil box next to the pulldowns).
Begin/end date? Where is that?
On the search/configure page at http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?reconfigure, the only date-related function is the one marked "Posted within the last", with the choices in the pull-down menu ranging from "Half a Day" to "Several Eons."
Where can you set begin and end dates?
Ferdinand Cesarano
There is a better store on the corner of Broadway and Astor Place. It is 3 doors south of the Vitamin store, 5 doors down from Astor Haircutters. They have a better selection.
Any news as to when subway service changes will begin taking place for the Stillwell Ave. terminal reconstruction?
Jim D. (RailBus)
I was on a S/B E today at 3pm. At 50th, we waited while a C train proceeded into 42nd. I looked straight down the track leading into the lower level, and noticed that it was lit up. Seriously. And there was also some kind of flashing yellow or orange light right after the switch.
Now, I am sure that is at least one T/O or railfan saw this today.
I wonder what they could have been doing down there.
Interesting, I thought they turned off the 3rd rail power there.
Mr t__:^)
I thought they had the track blocked with a timber.
All I know is that I saw lights on down there a few weeks ago. I was going s/b on an E train and could see straight down. The lights were dim, and I saw no people.
Are you ABSOLUTELY sure? Because I ride on a southbound E a number of times and I see it too, but it just turns out to be a reflection in the midst of the A express track and another track adjacent to it on the same level as the E.
For a first couple of times, (this was around many months ago, I had spotted the lights down there too. And I hoped that it wouldn't be a mirror reflection or just the same level of the 8th Av. platform while the E local track was RISING up to it.
Wondering...
Railfan Pete.
I don't even know of any STAIRCASE at 42nd St. - 8th Av. connecting to the lower level. Hmm.
You can still walk down there from 50th street.
There are staircases there. They just aren't open ones anymore. They're closed up.
Cemented over is more like it. At least one has a hatch which allows limited access.
Q/W and 63rd street:All the responces I got point to 1 thing.The 63rd street tracks that connect Broadway are GARBAGE.If these tracks only use is for a line that may never NEVER get built then they should be demolished and sealed up.I was right.Those tracks have the same use as an apendix.
4,5,6,8,10:These subway lines are needed.The 2nd avenue line will never be built so just give the people the 8 and 10.Local an express.It's like a game show.If the east side loose then give them a constelation prize.And I can't belive that th 8 and 10 isn't needed yet the 2nd avenue line is.Or at least put more 4,5 and 6 trains on the tracks.Where are those R142's.Test them,The MTA should be kissing our asses right now since the olympic commitee is here.
Speaking about the Olympic commitee:I hope you like congesto on the 7 and 4.
9th avenue:I decided to ride the M to 9th avenue and what I saw was unbelievable.As I peeked down to see the abandoned station What I saw was a danger to M,W and residents of Sunset park.As I looked down a support beam wascompletely rusted away and another completely destroyed by weathering and erosion.Even though these tracks(In this case a station) are no longer needed or wanted the MTA must still maintain tese tracks for customer safety(by the way I'm trying to tour the station and I need to know how to get access to the tunnel).
Q/W and 63rd street:All the responces I got point to 1 thing.The 63rd street tracks that connect Broadway are GARBAGE.If these tracks only use is for a line that may never NEVER get built then they should be demolished and sealed up.I was right.Those tracks have the same use as an apendix.
4,5,6,8,10:These subway lines are needed.The 2nd avenue line will never be built so just give the people the 8 and 10.Local an express.It's like a game show.If the east side loose then give them a constelation prize.And I can't belive that th 8 and 10 isn't needed yet the 2nd avenue line is.Or at least put more 4,5 and 6 trains on the tracks.Where are those R142's.Test them,The MTA should be kissing our asses right now since the olympic commitee is here.
Speaking about the Olympic commitee:I hope you like congestion on the 7 and 4.
9th avenue:I decided to ride the M to 9th avenue and what I saw was unbelievable.As I peeked down to see the abandoned station What I saw was a danger to M,W and residents of Sunset park.As I looked down a support beam wascompletely rusted away and another completely destroyed by weathering and erosion.Even though these tracks(In this case a station) are no longer needed or wanted the MTA must still maintain tese tracks for customer safety(by the way I'm trying to tour the station and I need to know how to get access to the tunnel).
OK, the people in Operations Planning would light you up on fire...
About the 8 and the 10, those tracks are already jammed up, people will still complain about not getting enough 8 and 10 trains, along with the 4, 5 and 6. So let's keep the bitching to a minimum. Also, I see you are a tourist, or you aren't a TRUE freakin NYC railfan...THE R142 and the R142A's are appearing every day! Open up your eyes (or get a telescope!).
-Clayton
Clayton.By appearing every day,you mean on the 4 and 5 right?
Or do you just mean on the lines you take,Oh yeah I forgot.You take a lexus to work.
No. I know you withdrew from this topic message, but just to let you know:
The R142A's and R142's are not planned for the #4 and the #5 lines.
The R142's will ONLY be planned to travel full-time on these two lines:
1) #2 line - 7th Av. Express
2) #6 line - Pelham Bay Park (Lexington Av. Local)
The #5 line is an exception to any extra or off-duty trains. The #4 and the #3 lines will KEEP their R62A fleet until past 2020.
Railfan Pete.
Is there any slight chanse that the R142's will go to the 1,3,4 or 7 when the R62's retire?
And does that man the 7 will be getting R62's or the short end of the stick?
The R-62's won't be retired for another 20 years or so. Who knows what will happen then?
As said plenty of times on this site before, when all redbirds are retired, the 3 will have nothing but R142s, and in terms of the 9 car/10 car thing, use search functions. I'd say we talked about it two or three weeks ago. Also, about the R160, is that B-division or A-division material? Because if it is A-division, the R62s may get knocked off early, but I think it is B-division.
The R160s are B-Division cars. I'm sure no R62 or R62A will be bumped off until at least 2020.
Are you making this up?
Others here, who actually have some idea of the TA's plans, have indicated that other lines will get R-142(A)'s. I don't offhand remember which, but I do know that one will be the 3.
And the 4 doesn't run any R-62A's.
To those who may be ignorant and cannot back up on what they're saying:
ARE YOU ABLE TO PROVIDE PROOF THAT THE #4, #5 and the #3 lines WILL RUN FULL-TIME SERVICE 100% on the R142A and R142 FLEET?!
I HAVE GOTTEN IT RIGHT MR. X2000. PROBABLY SOME DOCUMENTS OR WEBSITES THAT CAN HELP YOU TO CORROBORATE ON WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?!
JUST TO LET YOU KNOW, THESE SUBTALKERS AREN'T 100% ACCURATE. ALTHOUGH YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM, DO NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING.
And as for David:
The #4 DOES run quite a few R62A's down their track. Spare some time down the Lexington Av. Line and see. .
Such rabid subtalkers....
Railfan Pete.
Under nornal circunstances, the #4 does not run R-62As. If you doubt what I am saying please re-read the first sentence. All #4 trains are the responsibility of Jerome maintenance Shop. There are no R-62As assigned to the jerome Fleet. Trust me on this. Riding the line in your spare time will not change this fact...
IF YOU'RE SKEPTICAL IN YOUR DECISION, WHY DON'T YOU PROVIDE ME SOME DOCUMENTARIES AND SOME WEBSITES TO STATE THAT THIS IS TRUE? WHY DON'T YOU CONTACT THE MTA's T/A's FOR THE REAL FACTS? (I HAVE NO DOUBT AS TO THE JEROME SHOP) IF YOU HAVE REAL SPARE TIME, WHY DON'T YOU RECORD THE NUMBER OF REDBIRDS AND R62A's PASSED IN THE SAME STATION IN AN ENTIRE 24-HOUR PERIOD?! SPELL CORRECTLY TOO FOR YOUR POSTINGS SAKE, TRAIN DUDE
Railfan Pete.
The nice thing, railfan pete, is that i don't have to contact the MTA or the TA to get my facts.
Lots of people seem to miss your frequent posts.
-Hank
Look in the archives. I'll take the word of those inside the TA over yours. I don't remember what the arrangement on the 4 and 5 will be, but the 3, according to current plans, will run all R-142's. (I remember this specifically because it prompted me to ask how the 3 could run ten-car trainsets, a question which quickly became very popular.) This discussion took place, oh, maybe three or four weeks ago.
Are you sure it's the 4 you're watching? Barring an occasional loaner from another line, the 4 runs R-62's and Redbirds. The 4, in fact, runs all of the TA's R-62's. It doesn't run a single R-62A.
There's nothing wrong with being unsure of the facts, but there's no need to mislead others.
R62As don't run on the 4 line. R62s do. Externally they look the same. The differences are in the builders (R62 - Kawasaki; R62A - Bombardier), the car numbers (R62 - 1301-1625, with a few cars lost in two major accidents; R62A - 1651-2475) and much of the mechanical components.
You're correct about the 4. It won't operate entirely with R142s or R142As. Currently the 4 operates mostly with R62s, but also runs with R33 Redbirds because there are not enough R62s to cover the whole rush-hour needs of the 4 line. But sometime next year, those R33s will most likely be retired. Something has to replace them or the 4 line will have a severe car shortage during rush hours. It is very likely that they will be R142s or R142As from the option orders. However, the 4 will continue to operate mostly with R62s.
The 5 is second in line to get Bombardier R142s. Once the 2 is fully eqipped with R142s (about 380 cars or so), the 5 will begin getting R142s. Most likely, the 2 and 5 will use up the whole 680-car R142 order. There is a 230-car option order for addtional R142s from Bombardier. I don't know exactly when those will arrive, probably some time after the first 680 do. Where they will go is not yet known, but it will likely be the 3 or 4 line.
Then there's the Kawasaki R142A. The first 400 of these are entering service now. Most of these will be assigned to the 6. I don't think the 6 will require all 400 cars, so it's possible that once the 6 recives enough R142As to cover the whole line during rush hours, another line (the 3 or the 4) may get the remaining cars. But there's also an option order for about 180 additional R142As. Those will definitely go to a different line, because by then the 6 will already be running entirely with R142As. Where they will go is not known yet, but again it will likely be the 3 or 4 line. The 7 is supposed to be getting R62As sometime soon (it should have gotten them years ago) and the 1 is unlikely to get any R142s or R142As because it has the newest of the R62As (2161-2475, I think). But nothing is written in stone - yet.
The 1 will also not be getting 142/as because of door alignment problems at South Ferry.
Good point, I didn't even know about door alignment problems at South Ferry. I always learn something new!
The door arrangement on the 142s does preclude their operation to South Ferry at this time. It does not preclude anof IRT car prior to the R62/62A.
-Hank
Three reasons why I believe you're wrong:
1. The R-142s have wider doors than the R-62s. Would a wider door fully line up? Remember: The average NYCT passenger has the IQ of a pickle and will fall into any gap.
2. The R-142 cab cars have different door alignments than the blind motor cars. Now, do you think that the same GF alignment designed to fit R-62As with even door spacings would also accomodate this?
3. Last weekend, there was a G.O. supposedly sending 5s to run on the 1 to South Ferry, the flyer clearly indicated it was to be in service. What happened: The trains either went OOS at Chambers or ran nonstop to Bowling Green. I didn't see one train stop at SF.
Please re-read my post. As for what they were doing with the 5, I haven't the foggiest. Maybe they were trying to stop confusing passengers. I've taken 2 trains that do that detour, but they run non-stop Chambers to Wall, and stop at Bowling Green southbound only.
-Hank
The 5 trains all seemed to be empty (except for the occasional resident) through South Ferry, at least while I was standing there (2:00-2:30 or so Sunday afternoon).
The same GO is taking place again next weekend, all weekend this time. Same flyers. We'll see what actually happens.
AGAIN!
The Bombardier R-142 Primary Order Fleet is slated for (2) and (5) Service with left overs to the (4)
The Kawasaki R-142A Primary Order Fleet is slated for (6) Service
The R-142/R-142A Option Order Fleet is slated for the (3) Line again with left overs to the (4)!
ALL Pelham R-62As are heading to Corona, and eventually the Livonia R-62As will join them!
GET IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Thank you so much on the on the R-142's on the (4). My mom one time ask me if I know if the (4) was going to run the NEW Subway cars and I was not too shure if there where to run on the (4).
And I think about 1 more 10 Car set of R-142A's are to put in service on the (6) everyday. Am I right?
Oh, I thought the 4 was going to have to wait for the option orders before it could get any R142/142As. I guess there will be enough from the original 680 R142s to fully equip the 2 and 5 lines and have some cars left over for the 4. I learn something new every time I visit Subtalk!
>>Q/W and 63rd street:All the responces I got point to 1 thing.The 63rd street tracks that connect Broadway are GARBAGE.If these tracks only use is for a line that may never NEVER get built then they should be demolished and sealed up.I was right.Those tracks have the same use as an apendix.<<
The tracks are not total garbage as you suggest:
1.Re-routes. Ever seen the R run through there?
2. 2nd av. When the first portion is built, it will run from 125th to 63rd. Trains will be routed from there through broadway. Reason for that is that a lot of East Side riders get off at 14th st. Lo and behold, the Broadway is on the east side there!!
The TA doesn't seal up tracks that can be used. Stop being incompetent.
>>4,5,6,8,10:These subway lines are needed.The 2nd avenue line will never be built so just give the people the 8 and 10.Local an express.It's like a game show.If the east side loose then give them a constelation prize.And I can't belive that th 8 and 10 isn't needed yet the 2nd avenue line is.Or at least put more 4,5 and 6 trains on the tracks.Where are those R142's.Test them,The MTA should be kissing our asses right now since the olympic commitee is here.<<
The 4,5,6,8,10 presents a problem. the 6 is scheduled to come every 3 minutes. Scheduling another train to come every 3 mins would be murder. Same on the express tracks. So, if you put this proposed train service, you end up with slow trains. Better idea: expand 4,5 service.
The second av subway will be built. One day...
There are over 100 R-142/A in service. You obviously haven't rode any trains recently.
>>9th avenue:I decided to ride the M to 9th avenue and what I saw was unbelievable.As I peeked down to see the abandoned station What I saw was a danger to M,W and residents of Sunset park.As I looked down a support beam wascompletely rusted away and another completely destroyed by weathering and erosion.Even though these tracks(In this case a station) are no longer needed or wanted the MTA must still maintain tese tracks for customer safety(by the way I'm trying to tour the station and I need to know how to get access to the tunnel).<<
Are you a total idiot? I'm serious, does your brain function at all?
1. The people aren't going down there. So, there is no customer safety involved in this matter. How does this even relate to safety?!? No one should be going down there.
2. You yourself point out that there's rust and decay down there and then ask how to get down there. I'm not sure what to say about that.
start your tour on the siding on 38th street, where 4 Qcars are stored (old abandoned cars) walk towards 9th ave tracks on the W you cansee them straight ahead, make a 360 turn going back into the tunnel at 36th street, you will see the apporach
My observing of this site tells me there's well over 100 R142s in service, there are 13 trains on the 2 and I think just as much or more on the 6. You just have to be patient and let a train go maybe for one. If you travel during rush hour and get on whatever you see on whatever route you see, it is a slim chance you'll get an R142. Travel on a free weekend, and wait on the 2 line especially, you shouldn't have to wait more than 3 #2 trains max for an R142.
The Broadway-63rd tracks aren't being used currently because there's no need to double Queensbridge service by sending both Q's there and it's impossible to terminate one Q at 57th while the other goes through. They're still used for weekend GO's and for occasional reroutes.
The 8 and 10 on the fantasy map are just new names for existing routes (IIRC -- I'm not looking at the map -- the 6 express and one of the 5 branches). The Lex tracks are near capacity already.
How can you tell the condition of a support beam by peering down a staircase? Surface rust is not a danger unless it's allowed to penetrate.
Can someone tell me what a constelation prize is?
Also, I need to know if the Y and * trains should exist. Instructions on how to fit 6 cars in a 2 car garage would also be appreciated.
-Hank
The constelation prize could be a Milky Way Bar. Hmmmmmmm, wait. The Milky Way is a galaxy - not a constelation. Perhaps the constelation prize is an old rusting aircraft.
I don't think so. Lockheed made them out of aluminum, IIRC.
-Hank
Hmmmmmmmmm - so it's back to the drawing board?
No. a constelation prize is the ceiling of Grand Central.8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That should be the Grand constelation prize
No it's a Lockheed constelation.
Would an Orion bus do for a constelation prize?
-Robert King
I put some recent photos of the Rancocas Creek light rail bridge online. The bridge fell into the crick (local pronunciation) in April and was put in place last night.
bridge pics
What does SNJLRTS stand for? I know that's a deliberated acronym.
It's something like Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transit System.
Great pics Bob! You should be a photographer!
Did you see Y110 or Y131 there?
No.
While I haven't riden the M during the midday hours, I have noticed that most Chinese people heading to the Bowery do not use the M from Brooklyn, but they ride the J or M from Canal St to the Bowery, leading me to believe they are using the W/Q/Q<> lines over the bridge. Does anyone have actual knowledge of this trend?
I'm not sure about the numbers but there were posts here several months ago saying that's what was probably going to happen. Why stop at Lawrence, Court, Broad, Fulton and Chambers before you get to Canal when you can just take the W (or Q) straight from DeKalb to Canal and change trains, with the J and Z both options there along with the M train.
The N and R riders are starting to realize the same thing...they've been packing my W's all this week for the ride from Canal to 36th in Brooklyn. The combination of that, and the signal problems last night, caused an interesting but massively inconvienient sight - the entire population of a W train that had been re-routed to the Brighton tracks (with no warning at DeKalb) emptying out and walking down the long hallway to Pacific...
At least there is a transfer there now. Back before the mid-1970s, a shift like that probably would have caused a riot on the train, since the tunnel between the IRT and the B/R/N was outside the fare control zone (though they could have just reversed direction at Atlantic and gone back to DeKalb, I guess).
The M Service is threatening to cost the TA zillions.
The "community" is demanding that the mid-day M be extended past 9th Avenue, down to Bay Parkway. Well, the signals on the West End line are being replaced. And they can't work at night because of the "residential area" rule. So if the "community" get's their way, the Signal job is shot, at a cost of millions and millions.
Add that to the millions the politicians have already told the TA to spend on services that don't even solve the problem. And the millions to run the shuttle to a Grand Street station nobody uses.
Then think about the Rutgers to DeKalb connection the MTA wanted to do, but the politicians weren't interested in. It would have allowed the B train to run through the Rutgers tunnel, stopping at Delancy Street a couple of blocks from Grand, among other things. So, Ron in Bayside, who is to blame here -- the MTA bureaucrats or the freakin politicians?
How 'bout that useless Grand-DeKalb shuttle bus? How much is that costing the MTA?
The freaking politicians definitely are to blame! New York State and City politicians SUCK! They're the ones who screwed up the Manhattan Bridge! They're the ones who screw everything up in this city! You're right Larry, I've seen that Grand Street Shuttle. Nobody's using it! Those R46 cars could maybe run elsewhere instead on a useless two-stop shuttle with very low ridership. Rutgers-DeKalb could have helped riders immensely. It won't solve all of the bridge's problems, but at least one Sixth Avenue service could have made it into Brooklyn with the connection. But nooooooooo, the New York bloodsuckers, I mean politicians, just won't hear of it! And now those damn bloodsuckers want to force the MTA to extend midday M service to Bay Parkway forcing them to cancel a signal project.
Rutgers-DeKalb is one connection that could ease the problems of the Manhattan Bridge. I'm actualy surprised and happy to hear that the MTA actually wanted to do it. I gotta admit, the MTA really is doing everything it can to provide good (not great) service between southern Brooklyn and Manhattan while also trying to please a bunch of elected jerks who pretend to represent "the people's needs," but in reality they only care about themselves. They f---ed up the bridge and now they need a scapegoat to take the blame. And now they're squandering a golden opportunity to partially save 6th Ave Express service to southern Brooklyn by not allowing the MTA to undertake Rutgers-DeKalb. Some representation of the community that is. It sounds to me like they're screwing the community.
Well, you've got your community activits -- they've got to complain about something, and (assuming they weren't protesting just to get their names on TV and in the papers) in the case of the Manny B, they assumed that the riders from South Brooklyn were too stupid to figure out to:
1. Take the Q/W to Canal Street;
2. Get off;
3. Walk up the rear stairway;
4. Take the next train that comes one stop to the Bowery;
5. Repeat in opposite direction that evening.
6. Continue repeating for next 3 1/2 years.
So as a result, we have extended M service, which nobody uses because unless walking is a serious problem, noone wants to go on that wayward route through Montague Street if they can help it. And we have the shuttle bus, which I would like to see someone at the Post or News take a ride on just to see how many people are actually using it.
A double boondoggle, and I really can't blame the MTA for this because if they didn't give in they would have been villified as "cold" and "hartless" and "insensative" to the needs of people working in the Grand Street area (SOP for the shrillest of the community activists, no matter what the issue). As for the Rutgers tunnel, the only chance I see in the future of getting it built is if the Manny B "fix" doesn't work, and as soon as that's announced, the MTA jumps right into the effort to get the connection built. That way it might have enough momentum to defeat the efforts of the NIMBYs in the DUMBO-Navy Yard area.
Extended M servgice may not be economical, but I wopn't complain about it, just remembering every time i'm stuck in lower manhattan late in the evening and I get to the M station to get home to the West End right as the token clerk tells me they're not running to Brooklyn any more for the day, and I have to turn around and head halfway to midtown just to pick up the B, or else find an IRT somewhere that will get me to Pacific/Atlantic
"And the millions to run the shuttle to a Grand Street station nobody uses."
Believe it or not, I saw a lot of people using the shuttle when I was at Broadway Lafayette.
N/W Broadway Lines
"Then think about the Rutgers to DeKalb connection the MTA wanted to do, but the politicians weren't interested in. It would have allowed the B train to run through the Rutgers tunnel, stopping at Delancy Street a couple of blocks from Grand, among other things. So, Ron in Bayside, who is to blame here -- the MTA bureaucrats or the freakin politicians?"
Why the B and not the D line?
N/W Broadway Lines
It could be either the B or the D. Not both because then you would have to reduce service on the B, D and F trains in rush hours to accomodate all of them in the Rutgers tunnel.
If the B were to be routed through Rutgers, that would allow people living in the Grand Street area to get directly to the West End line communities from a closer station, Essex-Delancy. That would come in handy if the bridge is shut down (for any reason). Bowery is still closer to Grand Street than Delancy is, but Delancy is closer than Canal. On the Hagstrom map, it appears that the East Broadway station is also closer to Grand Street than Canal.
If the D were to be routed through Rutgers, you would lose direct Grand Street-West End service (the cause of all the complaint) if the bridge is shut down. Where the conncetion would be made, I don't know. But if it's after the point where the B joins the N (to bypass DeKalb) and the D joins the Q (to head down the Brighton line) then it would be easier to connect the D into the Rutgers tunnel because the bypass tracks (B and N trains) are the center tracks and it would be harder to make a conncetion into those tracks. The Brighton tracks are the outside tracks and connection would be easier made from them.
The M Service is threatening to cost the TA zillions.
The TA announced that the cost for the all day M service and the night shuttle bus would be $2 million annually. My own calculations, based on published operating costs for revenue-car-miles, indicated that the added service would cost $7.3 million. Which is it?
Be careful with the term 'Chinese'. To be PC in this overly PC obsessed world, use the term 'Asian'. I know it's rediculous but down here in GA if you want to get flogged you call a 'black' person 'colored'.
""Be careful with the term 'Chinese'. To be PC in this overly PC obsessed world, use the term 'Asian'. I know it's rediculous but down here in GA if you want to get flogged you call a 'black' person 'colored'.""
This was an accurate use of the word Chinese, since that is the major ethnic group of people living in Chinatown. Most other Asian peoples have neighborhoods elsewhere in the city.
And to call an African american person "colored" isn't just un-PC, it's downright insulting.
Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, it's fine to call someone Chinese, or Korean or Japanese or Vietnamese etc. I think it's Oriental that some people find objectionable and has been replaced by Asian.
Gimme a break. The term "Chinese" is a statement of nationality and I would laugh in the face of anyone who would be offended by it.
I noticed that the R40-R46 cars in the subways have headlights and tailights beside eachother like on commuter RR's. Why did NYCTA go back to traditionally stacked headlights/tailights in the newer cars such as the R68s?
I like the tailight/headlight in a row like on the R40,R42,44, and 46 models, they look more like RR trains.
I have noticed that also with the R-40/42/44/46 subway cars. The R-143 will have a similar congifuration with the headlights and taillights.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Yeah I always like the arrangement of the lights on the R-40 thru R-46 cars also. Imagine my disappointment when the R-62's arrived with this newfangled arrangement.
Wayne
Probably just a design issue. Why did Chrysler in the mid-1980s use stacked headlights on its minivans, side-by-side lights on its higher-end sedans, and only two headlights on its lower-end models?
I've been spending a few days working with Signal Computer Consultant's Train Dispatcher and Track Builder programs.
They are two very cool games / tools!!
I have decided for my first project to work on something big...
tada! DeKalb Avenue.
For those of you with the latest Train Dispatcher program, I'd like to invite you to check out how the entire layout looks. Just send me a PRIVATE e-mail.
This is just for you to see how everything works. There are no trains to control - yet.
Eventually I plan to attempt to put together a three hour trial run (7-10 AM) so everyone can enjoy!
So again if you are interested in checking out what the layout looks like, send an e-mail to jrhorse98@aol.com I'll even give you progress reports and let you know when the timetables are completed.
I've seen Pelham pkwy on the 5,and it looks really delapidated.The wall(not on the platform)looks like it's growing abspestos like the wals at 9th avenue(the tunnel platform which by the way really needs a serious spruce up).
If any words are mispelled thats because my keyboard is broken.
I've seen Pelham pkwy on the 5,and it looks really delapidated.The wall(not on the platform)looks like it's growing abspestos like the wals at 9th avenue(the tunnel platform which by the way really needs a serious spruce up).
If any words are mispelled thats because my keyboard is broken.
By he way I am widthdrawing My responce to Why and Why not.
Well, since I've lived directly across the street from Pelham Parkway station my entire life, I feel obligated to comment on my home station.
I cretainly agree that it needs some sprucing up. But much like the entire system itself, it's better than it once was. I can remember the days when the stationhouse was graffiti-covered, like the trains that ran through it. Thanks to the commitment of folks in the community, the graffiti war was eventually won. The shrubbery outside the station was weedy and poorly kept.....now the parks department have done away with the ugly bushes and have kept the grass well-cut and have even tried to introduce some flowers.
As for the interior, there is definitely no shortage of peeling paint. The place certainly does show its age. The cement stairways are not particularly pleasant after some rain. But the place is not the worst I've seen. Honestly, what has always bothered me the most is the way the garbage piles up in the unused express trackways (now, of course only the n/b trackway is unused since the reconnection of the s/b express for R-142 testing). Again, not a unique problem to this station, but probably exacerbated by the unused and unmaintained trackway.
Could it use a facelift though? Certainly. Will it get one soon? I won't hold my breath.....PP was one of the last stations to get Metrocard (although I was pleasantly surprised about how fast a MVM appeared). That being said, if they do someday give the place a renovation, I do hope they keep the old-fashioned incoming train indicatior with the light bulbs and the "To City" designation. It's one of those neat little touches that gives the place a feeling of uniqueness.
Asbestos doesn't grow.
A couple of weeks ago, I left my hometown with my youth group to Hammond for a Youth Conference. I enjoyed it and it changed my life. What I've noticed between the times is that I've been passing through MANY railroad tracks in that area.
We passed one set of two tracks, and another set of five tracks down the same street! I also saw a freight rail yard with an old, squiggly-type metal building. There are two railroads that are active that run right in front of the church that I went to. The honk of the horn was fantastic and the freight was from double-stacked containers to manufacturing goods and truck trailers. There were two, handsomely painted black 'NS' (Norfolk Southern) locomotives trundling down the tracks, but I noticed an odd thing.
I saw two (maybe three) instances where a freight train had exactly 46 cars. (At night) If anyone knows, do trains out here travel with a special type of order? Any info. I might want to know?
I tried to keep my excitement down because of the Youth Conference, but I enjoyed it. Then I heard from my Youth Pastor that every railroad that crosses the United States goes through Hammond. (Except ones that cross extremely south of the U.S.) What an experience.
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
The South Shore line goes through Hammond as well.
There used to be restaurant by all the tracks that was called
Phil Shmidt's. You could eat there and watch the trains. I believe
the New York Central and Pennsylvania railroads ran parallel to each
other, of course you could tell which was which by the position light
signals on the Pennsy tracks.
I remember when I was a kid, there was a train going by every few
minutes. This was in the mid 60's...
i have programmed my computer to play the sounds of trains whenever people come online as an alert. When i think about it the announcements sound almost alike. they both tell where the train is stopping, and where its going. One announcement i have is this
"this station is, hunterspoint avenue, this is the train to Port Jefferson. "The next station is Jamaica"
then there is a R142A announcement.
"This station is 51st street" "Transfer is available to the E, and F Trains". Doors open
"This is a Manhattan bound 6 train". "The next stop is 59th street"
"Stand clear of the closing doors please"
thats hott
also if any subtalkers wanna im me, my screennames are
A 8AV FULTON EXP
E JAMAICA CENTER
F TRAIN 5656
E JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
BACK TO YOU IN THE STUDIO
And how did you do this?
I got some subway sounds from a website. i forgot the website, but i saved some sounds to disk. i then opened aol instant messenger, changed the alert sounds to what i had in my documents. the sounds where saved on the computer hard drive. then it does it when i want it too.
Have you started sending your resume for the LIRR yet?????
What does a WD signal look like and what are the available aspects?
A WD looks like a simple solid white bullet - type light, which is wayside of the track. It is used mainly as a timer for switching maneuvers over very sharp curves. There are three different indications for it: Off, meaning that it is deactivated and not in use; and flashing and solid, meaning that it is activated for the switching procedure. (If anyone cares to correct me, go right ahead.)
It is usually timed for a low speed, such as 5 MPH (though many are rigged for speeds of up to 25 MPH.) When activated, a T/O must approach it at or below the indicated speed. Failure to do so will result in the train being put BIE at the next automatic/home signal. How will a T/O know that he/she is at or below the indicated speed? Well, the flashing indication means that he/she is above the indicated speed. The solid indication means that he/she is at or below the indicated speed.
I bet you're probably asking yourself why couldn't the TA put in regular timers that are rigged for the switch. Well, on some lines with older signals, such as the Upper Bway - 7th Av and the lower Lex, those signals still are there. With resignalling, however, they'll probably be gotten rid of in favor of the newer WDs. Why not make the same types of signals with the newer systems? They may cost too much, in the TA's eyes.
The advantage of the wheel detector system is that it overlays
on the existing signals. You'll note that the indication given
by a WD signal is not in any way tied to the other wayside signals.
These little buggers work through a pair of inductive pickups
spaced a short and precise distance apart. They detect when a wheel
passes over them and measure the time between the first and the
second detectors going off. In order to cut in the conventional
timers (GT, DT, ST or lunars) one has to add track circuits,
insulated joints, relays, line wires, etc. The WD also has the
advantage of strict speed control throughout the entire control
limit, as opposed to the older timers which can be fudged. This
is good from a signal engineer's standpoint but bad for operations.
Because the WD signals are so unforgiving, and because the TA
management in RTO is very punitive, most train operators go
through WD territory at about 50% of the posted speed.
> (GT, DT, ST or lunars)
What is DT?
- Lyle Goldman
GT=Grade Time (though seemingly not always on a grade)
DT=Diverging Time (usually going over a switch)
ST=Station Time (approaching a station -- acts as a time signal only if a train is in the station or just leaving it)
David
Could somebody please explain Diverging Time to me? That term is not used in the signals guide on the website.
- Lyle Goldman
D (not DT) is part of an automatic signal governed by rule #62G. When illuminated it means, "Approach at allowable speed. Be prepared for a diverging route at the end of the block."
In other words, when the associated switch is set for a diverging route, the D will illuminate. This is usually one or two automatic signals in advance of the home signal that protects th switch. In addition you will see a fixed signal (yellow sign) that says "DT" with the allowable speed. That sign will be in advance of the actual timer.
But isn't that just a special type of Grade Time (GT) aspect? That aspect is listed in the signals guide, but under Grade Time. The term "Diverging Time" or "DT" is not mentioned there.
- Lyle Goldman
It is very similar to a Grade Timer, the difference being that
a Diverging Timer is only activated when the switch it protects
is set for the diverging move.
You'll note that the indication given by a WD signal is not in any way tied to the other wayside signals.
This is absolutely correct - and one of the glaring errors found in the Dell Comics version posted by 137th St.
"These little buggers work through a pair of inductive pickups
spaced a short and precise distance apart."
This is why the wheel detector system is not working and is being dis-used.
Thoughts: (they flicker through occaisonally)
1) I can't think of another situation where the flashing aspect is less permissive than the static one. (Protection against your flasher packing up)
2) The "blind stops" on the WB bridge; are they driven off the WD's? If so, I haven't seen a lot of other "blind stops" elswhere on the system. It seems like they'd be adjacent to WD signal heads....
3) Although the WD aspects are run independenly, I assume that normal cross-checks between "timers"(or "speed checkers") and homes are in effect. example: At (IND)Canal on A4, I bet the home won't clear for a move to A2 unless the WD is PROVEN to be lit and "ready."
A flashing green on NORAC railroads indicated Cab Speed and this has the possibility to be less than Clear.
Normally a flashing aspect must be more permissive than the same
aspect solid, as you said, in case the flasher fails lit solid.
WD signal heads convey no authority over train movements. They are
really more of a visual alarm.
Blind stops were commonplace years ago. They were essentially
a single-shot timer with no associated signal head.
You'd think some sort of check circuit was present somewhere in
the home relay network, but I'm not sure that's the case.
Interesting. Is this a failure of the sensors, failure to tune the pickups (to detect wheel vs no wheel) or some other cause?
Is the TA going to give up, or are people looking at other technologies (optical pickup etc)?
Thanks,
John
The problem is neither fish nor fowl, so to speak. I took a course in signal familiarization a few weeks ago and this was their explanation:
The wheel detector precisely measures the speed of the train by measuring the time between pairs of axles passing the sensors. This works out well because the distance between axles on an IRT truck is 6' 10" and the distance between axles on a BMT/IRT truck is also 6' 10". Hence, the speed of either can accurately be measured by the Wheel Detector logic. The problem is while NYCT diesel loco trucks also have 82" axle centers, most of the work fleet does not. The common work equipment truck has 5' 6" axle centers. This is roughly a 19% variation that fools the wheel detector logic into thinking that work trains are moving faster than they actually are. More confusing is the fact that if the loco is in the lead, the operator will get a solid indication but when a flat or hopper cross the sensor, the WD senses a sudden speed increase and trips the train. This is resulting in service delays while the crew deals with the BIE. The simple thing would be to slow the work-trains over WD territory but the inaccuracy inherrent in the system has called the entire system into question.
That's also how EZPass measures your speed through the toll booth. Instead of couting the axles on the train, they count your car using two inductive loops. The loops are a known distance apart, the elapsed time is computed into a speed and matched to the transponder.
-Hank
Thank you for a clear explanation of the instrumentation principles used for the speed sensor. It would appear that in measuring the time to travel over a calibrated distance that the distance wasn't quite calibrated. It's reassuring to know that fundamental instrumentation principles that apply in the rest of the world also apply within the context of railroading applications. Several other posters had strongly hinted that technologies and engineering principles that have proved themselves for decades would not work within the railroading context. It's nice to know that two plus two still equals four within the TA's domain.
As another poster noted the normal technique is to use two pickups that are embedded in the ground and are separated by a calibrated distance. Such a system would be insensitive to equipment variation. BTW, one would assume that the first WD installation underwent extensive testing with all available equipment. Those acceptance tests should make for amusing reading.
There is another technology that is commonly used for measuring speed - doppler. I could see why designers blinded by vital relay technology might find it difficult to utilize such sensors. Such sensors have worked quite reliably in other contexts.
"BTW, one would assume that the first WD installation underwent extensive testing with all available equipment. "
Yes one would assume!
And I agree about doppler> We use it for speed indication on all trains but R-46 and R-68. I don't know why it was not used in the WD application.
Well once the system gets coded track circuts they won't need timers any more.
Why is MoW equipment trippable?
I think we should wait until Mr.137th St answers this one. I'm still trying to find a list of my friends for you.
By the way - I didn't say the engineer was wrong about the 930 feet/sec. His answer was likely a textbook answer. What I said was that YOU misunderstood what he said and YOU posted an incorrect interpretation of what he said. But if it's any consolation, I too have over 20 years in the business.
What bussiness? I don't remember you working for any REAL Railroad. I don't remember you having any FRA certifacation.
I posted a quote of his exact words. What was there to misunderstand?
So let me get this straight - on one hand we have a wannabe who has no credentials, alleging that he is quoting an alleged engineer who allegedly has 20 years on the job. You have no proof that you spoke to an engineer. You have no proof that he said what you allege that he said and you offer no proof that he had 20 years on the job.
On the other hand, I have (thanks to a fellow subtalker) an airbrake manual that covers this exact subject and clarifies your misunderstanding of the alleged statement by the alleged engineer. I also have a reasonably comprehensive knowledge of airbrake, both freight and MU. So now you are going to get pissy and question my credientials? Regardless of what my railroad credentials are - they easily exceed any you will ever have.
Since I don't work for a "real" railroad, I will not comment on that subject further other than to say you are wrong once again. Revel in your ignorance.
You have no proof that you spoke to an engineer. You have no proof that he said what you allege that he said and you offer no proof that he had 20 years on the job.
Actually I do have proof. He is the head of his local BLE chapter and I was quoting from a BLE newsletter article you can find online. Don't believe me? It's right here http://www.ble.org/pr/newsletter/0400newsletter/story14.html
Look about 9 paraghaphs down. That was the quote I posted and all I got from you were a bunch of guff about how wrong it was.
See what happens when you make assumptions?
On the other hand, I have (thanks to a fellow subtalker) an airbrake manual that covers this exact subject and clarifies your misunderstanding of the alleged statement by the alleged engineer. I also have a reasonably comprehensive knowledge of airbrake, both freight and MU.
Then why did you never quote from it? Why did you never post the "REAL" rate of brake application? If you have it right with you how hard could it be? PROVE me wrong. PLEASE! Telling me that I am wrong w/o any other explanation is not proof.
Regardless of what my railroad credentials are - they easily exceed any you will ever have.
I don't pretend to know more about trains than you do, but in this case I had a source and when challenged I clearly posted my source. I'd bank my source knows as much or more about train operations that you do.
Since I don't work for a "real" railroad, I will not comment on that subject further other than to say you are wrong once again. Revel in your ignorance.
Are you Federally certified?
Actually I do have proof!
Look, mike, I am not going to get into a pissing contest over technicalities. So you read something and mis-interpretted it. That's a far cry from you saying that an engineer with 20 years told you. You were wrong in the way you interpretted the information and you misrepresented how you got it. Why not let it go at that?
I have a question. Do work hoppers or flats have trippers, or just the diesel? If the WD sensors feel the work train is folowing, and the hoppers/flats don't have trippers, does the first WD sensor pass the speed info to the following WD's, which then trip the diesel?
All NYCT work equipment have tripcocks. What is suprising to me is that the Wheel Detector does not have a retention circuit like the conventional signal. This prevents the stop arm from coming up as long as the block is shunted.
"What is suprising to me is that the Wheel Detector does not have a retention circuit like the conventional signal. This prevents the stop arm from coming up as long as the block is shunted. "
Oh. I thought *that* was the whole theory behind the WD system. To keep a train at a certain speed the whole time it was passing over the detector. If any wheelset passing over it is above speed up jumps that little devil and says "Sorry Charlie, your'e out of service"
Elias
I suppose that in that context, you are correct
Ya know? The more I listen to this thing about WD's, the more I wonder why the TA doesn't just adopt the old "upstate solution?" Put guys with 9 millimeter sidearms in the tunnels and just SHOOT the damned motorman. :)
There's no retaining circuit because no track circuits are used.
That is one of the operational nightmares of the WD signals.
With any other form of wayside speed control, you know _where_
you are going to be tripped, as opposed to at what speeed. There
is no guesswork. You can see the arm, and when it goes down, you
don't have to worry about it again.
The problem is neither fish nor fowl, so to speak. I took a course in signal familiarization a few weeks ago and this was their explanation:
The wheel detector precisely measures the speed of the train by measuring the time between pairs of axles passing the sensors. This works out well because the distance between axles on an IRT truck is 6' 10" and the distance between axles on a BMT/IND truck is also 6' 10". Hence, the speed of either can accurately be measured by the Wheel Detector logic. The problem is while NYCT diesel loco trucks also have 82" axle centers, most of the work fleet does not. The common work equipment truck has 5' 6" axle centers. This is roughly a 19% variation that fools the wheel detector logic into thinking that work trains are moving faster than they actually are. More confusing is the fact that if the loco is in the lead, the operator will get a solid indication but when a flat or hopper cross the sensor, the WD senses a sudden speed increase and trips the train. This is resulting in service delays while the crew deals with the BIE. The simple thing would be to slow the work-trains over WD territory but the inaccuracy inherrent in the system has called the entire system into question.
I know this is going to come off completely off base, but to someone like myself, the whole concept of WD's is an affront to professionalism and the expectations thereof. Either a T/O is a professional, who knows and observes the rules, or they are NOT a professional and should be removed from the road. Anyone who cannot follow the direction of wayside signal, either automatic or fixed, has no business being in a cab in the FIRST PLACE.
So in a precarious way, I'm actually glad to hear this. The existence of those damned things tells me only that school car isn't long enough to qualify folks for the road and that perhaps the TA is scraping the barrel a bit too deep if such is truly needed. You've got enough to worry about out there without having to shave hairs over whether you're at 14.8 or 16 when the railroad once ran perfectly safe when you'd hit 20 since you had to determine speed once upon a time by eyeball and not a speedo.
In a cursory look back over the accidents that occurred over the last 30 years since I left the system, most have been the result of direct human error - impaired individuals who shouldn't have been on the road in the first place or people that were obviously way past their need of sleep.
Have things really changed so much that a TMO or dispatcher couldn't question a crew's fitness for duty in the office before they boarded a train and sent them to see the company doctor on a basis of suspicion or erratic behavior? Have the disciplinaries and chain of command fallen apart so?
Hope you understand where I'm coming from here - but I'd want to bitch slap whoever came up with the idea for WD's in the first place solely on the concept ... whether it offers benefits that are real or not is another question of course but if you hire and train "professionals" then WD's seem counter to it when fixed "T" signs would suffice. And yeah, I feel the same way about timers. On a railroad, you either observe the restrictions, or you're outta there like CSX through a goose. Have things REALLY gotten so bad?
Just wanted to finish the thought - I have nothing against GT's ... their purpose was to stop a runaway ... but aside from such considerations, there's gotta be a better way ...
Your post on "professionals" would be valid if the TA weren't purposely diluting their workforce. And don't get me started on the training.
... Comes the repolusion ... still, sheesh ... glad I'm an outta towner if that's the reality these days.
I can understand how you feel, but many T/O's are professionals. That fateful day in 1991 (Robert Ray) changed many things from random/fitness for duty checks and uniforms to the introduction of WD's. From now until some point in the future there will be the human factor. I don't know of one T/O who can say they haven't gotten drowsy behind the controls of a train regardless of how much sleep they had gotten. The WD is a second system that overlaps the first to ensure proper speed through an area. The original system can't do what the wheel detector does. Frankly, I am glad there are timers also. There are some trains I have ridden....jeez. Testing the limits, but for what gains? If you are speeding and then the train is on the ground, what explanation can you give? There are a lot of different thinking people in the world that do things for different reasons, but again I understand your position.
Couldn't agree with you more ... especially on the "drowsy" part ... I mean, let's face it ... when you do the same run four times a day or more, it gets boring fast ('cept for the buffs of course. Heh) and I can understand that part. Happens enough on mainlines as well. But if you doze off in a cab, it's usually what they call a "microsleep" ... dangerous as all hell of course and it DOES happen. And usually just enough to hit a signal. But that's why you protect interlocks on the approach and have that spring under the handle.
I guess what I was trying to say is timers is one thing - they're almost forgiving of small indiscretions and the ones on curve protections are strict enough ... it was the WD's that I find offensive and there only from the standpoint of if you're doing 14.8 you get through, but if you do 15.001 you get nailed. When diverging through an interlock, you know to take it down to 15 or less depending on the "D" requirements for that crossover ... or at least should. I guess what I decry here is the unnecessary slowing of the railroad in areas where it isn't necessary to do so ...
The story of what happened to CPW as one single example is personally a heartbreaker for me. After the long and boring run up the Brighton headed for 205, that CPW dash woke me up - as exhilarating as a cold shower and a fun part of the run each way. Same for W4 to 34 as well. And as to Bobby Ray, he's certainly ruined a lot of lives, not just those on his own wreck, but the continuing wreck that followed him over the years. Damned shame. And yeah, I know a number of TA and ex-TA brethren that would like to pay him a visit. :)
Yeah, the railroad is getting slower still. CPW is still fresh on a lot of peoples minds.
It sounds really silly but I avoided certain foods when it came time to operate. Certain foods made me sleepy during the digestion process. The heat knocks you out too. I was mostly on redbirds and sometimes even if the cab door was open, there was still that imaginary "sheild" as if the door was still closed and the air wouldn't come into the cab. So then I cracked the window.
It's not written down anywhere but I have heard from more than one person that that there is a 5 mph leeway on some the WD. I remember that on the first WD at 14 st. it was 5 mph (maybe it still is) but I understand that they might have increased it to 10 mph. It would really tie up service if they had to run around something. I couldn't believe it when they put in the WD at the First ave. interlocking on the Flushing line in the tube. I made the move one night. The only problem is that after you come out of the switch you now have to ascend the grade while staying under 10. What a pain! If I remember correctly, series was not enough power so I had to put it in parallel to get up the hill but then shut it off and back to series to stay at 10. This had to be done several times. I was so embarassed as to what my passengers might have thought. Like a cowboy on a bronco!
Yeah, not finding the right "speed" on the controller to keep it smooth is a royal pain in the butt. In the old cars, you could sorta coast and cheat but even then you had to "give it some gas" at points where it would make you nuts. I can only imagine what it's like today with the slower speeds. I never did the boids, I was B2 ... well, they told me B1 because the D line "looked" like BMT from the Stillwell end though we all know better. Heh.
But yeah, I knew a guy who just could not eat BEETS ... 30 minutes later, and he'd be slumped over anything handy. I guess it's just my body chemistry, but if I'm doing something, I never nod out no matter how tired I get ... I just crash and burn once I'm done with it and get stupid after a while. In other words, you want me to move it, no problem - just don't expect a coherent sentence out of me. :)
But I'd sure hate to be sentenced to a constant speed that a consist doesn't want to do without being able to just pop between coast and switching/series to give it a bump. The Steinway hoops must be pure hell ... one would think though that a simple R10 marker would be enough to let you know when your butt is clear of an interlock and that you wouldn't go three notches until after you passed it.
"You'll note that the indication given by a WD signal is not in any way tied to the other wayside signals."
"This is absolutely correct - and one of the glaring errors found in the Dell Comics version posted by 137th St."
I had asked if anyone were to correct me if there anything that I had left out. Jeff H. took that opportunity. You, TD, on the other hand, proceed to call it a "non-answer" and a "Dell Comics" version, which is much more of an attack rather than a correction.
Fair warning. I haven't learned to use the killfile yet, but don't make me have to learn.
"Fair warning. I haven't learned to use the killfile yet,"
So, what you are saying is that you know as much about killfiles as you do about wheel detectors? Use the killfile. The instructions are on the top of the page. All you'll do is eliminate my posts from your search criteria. However if that's troo complicated for you, just ignore my posts in the future. I wouldn't want to confuse you with facts.
So, what you are saying is that you know as much about killfiles as you do about wheel detectors?
Hey! Stop it. What the hell did Mr. 137th St. ever do to you? DO you have any friends? Do people willingly spend tine in your vicinity? Do they use your personality to strip and re-finish Redbirds?
Hey! Stop it. What the hell did Mr. 137th St. ever do to you? DO you have any friends? Do people willingly spend tine in your vicinity? Do they use your personality to strip and re-finish Redbirds?
Now this takes the cake! We're witnessing a mind meld of JM and TD.
Do they use your personality to strip and re-finish Redbirds?
That was the funniest thing I've read all night.
"Well, the flashing indication means that he/she is above the indicated speed."
I was on a (J) train this past Sunday leaving the Williamsburgh Bridge about to enter the Essex St. station.
The WD was flashing, but we didn't trip at the next homeball. Did the T/O slow down in time ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The TA is have some problems with them, so some of them are in bypass. Meening that they won't trip you if they are flashing, but remember the other ones will still trip you if you are going to fast. The only time you can resume speed is when you hit a green WD END sign past the zone.
Robert
(If anyone cares to correct me, go right ahead.)
I really don't care to correct you. It does, however, irk me to some extent that you can post an answer to a serious question - answer it like you have some real knowledge of the subject, and then say "(If anyone cares to correct me, go right ahead.)"
While you are pondering what errors you've made in your non-answer, here's another question. Why are the wheel detectors being phased out?
I'm sure that with all of your knowledge of wheel detector theory and operation, you'll have an answer by.....??
WDs being phased out??? Really?
How did I know about WDs to being with? When Redbirds were still en vogue on the #6, I found myself with a lot of time to look ahead at all of the signals on the line, which included home signals and WDs. Sometimes, esp. riding on the #6 express out northbound out of Parkchester, I saw the WDs in action, as well as how the T/Os got through them. Granted, there is probably more to WDs and other signals that I know about, but what I answered to AP is what I know so far.
At least your response was more useful than Train Dude's, who instead of providing information just took the oppurtunity to insult you.
"At least your response was more useful than Train Dude's, who instead of providing information just took the oppurtunity to insult you."
Are we then to assume that you consider mis-information to be information?
That seems to be the trouble with this board lately. There are a small group of people who post their 'comic book' view of the subject as fact and another group who will accept their ramblings as useful information. Considering that the only correct bit of information 137th St. posted was the signal aspect color. Now if you find the information useful then you will be as well informed as he is.
Furthermore, I do reserve the right to criticize any all posts that that I feel fall into that catagory and contain mis-information. If you have a problem with that - well that,s why god invented killfiles.
Why don't you be USEFUL and post the "correct" answer. Prove him wrong, don't just insult him. You seem to think you know alot so show us. If you don't have a better answer then don't say anything at all.
"Why don't you be USEFUL and post the "correct" answer."
I think that my information is useful. Unfortunately, I spend an inordinate amount of time pointing out the supidity of posts from people like railfan Pete, QDash7, MrX2000, and to some extent, you. You guys hear something and incorrect or not, misunderstood or not, you KDs post it as fact. Others read your 'authoritative' posts and before long, people are discussing how the R-160s will have 34" wheels on the #1 truck and 40" wheels on the #2 truck for a smoother ride. (BTW: We still need to clarify your misunderstanding about the speed of brakepipe air through the airbrake system. It is not the 900 feet per second that you posted.) But this is just my point. You post something that an engineer told you. You misunderstand it and post your misunderstood facts. How many others who read your posts now believe that air travels through a freight train at 930 feet per second? You KDs stop posting drivel and I'll i won't call you to task for it.
You still haven't posted any information to contradict Mr. 137th St. As far as I'm concearned you're full of hot air. You say that just because we post something dosen't me it's right. Well by the same logic, just because you claim that something is wrong dosen't means it is. I come to this board for information, not to see others get put down by ass holes.
You insult and belittle a person who went out of his way to answer answer another Subtalker's question to the best of his ability and you have the nerve to call me a jerk. Then you don't even supply the correct information (as if you had it in the first place), treating the situation like some sort of game show where you have the card and get to riddicule the contestants as they bumble around for the right answer.
BTW The rate is for a BIE and I'd believe an Engineer w/ 20 years experiance and over some TA manager.
BTW The rate is for a BIE and I'd believe an Engineer w/ 20 years experiance and over some TA manager.
Now I'll piss off both of you. I don't know squat about brake lines in freight trains (TD is getting red already unless he stopped reading here), but I can't imagine a wave of air pressure moving through a pipe at the speed of sound.
"but I can't imagine a wave of air pressure moving through a pipe at the speed of sound."
Sound is a vibration through air.
A reduction in pressure is a similar disturbance in air.
All things being equal the pipe reduction should transmit as quickly.
That it doesn't is an influence of outside factors: friction, the dynamics of piping, the operation of controls.
I have a BN brake book upstairs, and I guess I could look it up to see what it says, but the fact is that I am not all *that* interested, having other things to do this morning.
But it would be nice to:
1) hear things repeated and discussed for that is how we
a) learn and
b) cover the topic for those who may have missed it the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 24th time around.
2) Not to listen to backbiting.
Elias
"but I can't imagine a wave of air pressure moving through a pipe at the speed of sound." Bob
I have been accused of lacking imagination. I haven't argued the point.
"Sound is a vibration through air.
A reduction in pressure is a similar disturbance in air." Elias
I suspect that there is actual physical movement of air through pipes, and not just a pressure wave actuating the breaks. A pressure reduction should involve air departing through a release valve, which would not occur at the speed of sound.
Perhaps I'm letting my imagination run away, though.
"A pressure reduction should involve air departing through a release valve, which would not occur at the speed of sound. Perhaps I'm letting my imagination run away, though."
Oh No! The Pressure is UNIFORM throughtout the whole system. Try it out with a garden hose (You do have gardens in NYC, don't you? (Hehehehehee...))
Make it simple: connect a hose to an open tank at one end, and get say 100' of hose, you can leave it coiled up (back yards in NYC aren't that big are they.)
Now fill the tank with water, and let it run through the hose until the hose is full and stop the other end.
Now open the valve, and watch the level of the water in the tank, It responds instantly doesn't it. The Water did not *move* from one end of the hose to the other. But a pressure reduction did occur at the far end almost instantly.
Imagine a balloon 620 feet long, imagine it inflated to 10 pounds psi.
Now make a reduction by letting air out of one end. The whole ballon is reduced in pressure all at once. You let out 2 psi, the whole ballon is now at 8 psi. Only a little are was removed from one end, and that was the only air that moved, but the whole balloon now has a reduced pressure.
So a brake application requires only a small pipe reduction, and all of the cars *should* acknoledge this pressure drop at once, that it doesn't is a function of various outside factors and dynamics of train brake operation the details of which I haven't much of a clue.
And here is the case in point. It takes only moments for a pipe reduction to reach all of the cars on these 100 car coal trains that run outside of our Abbey, but it can take 30 to 45 minutes to charge the whole train from the locomotive. Charging requires air to flow into all of the cylendars on all of the cars, and to charge them to the correct PSI, but once there, slight reductions can be detected at each car fairy quickly. I have heard a number such as 12 seconds for the last set of brakes to respond on a mile long train, but I'll have to check that out the next time my friend comes up to visit us, though bigedirtl has also run freight trains out here, and should also know the answer to this one.
: ) Elias
I have heard a number such as 12 seconds for the last set of brakes to respond on a mile long train, but I'll have to check that out...
At 900 feet per second, that should be 6 seconds.
Thanks for your imaginative pressure explanation. I live in South Jersey, the less urban portion of the Garden State, so I am familiar with garden hoses.
As was explained to me before the 900 fps is for an Emergency application. Service applications are slower.
>>> Now fill the tank with water, and let it run through the hose until the hose is full and stop the other end.
Now open the valve, and watch the level of the water in the tank, It responds instantly doesn't it. The Water did not *move* from one end of the hose to the other. But a pressure reduction did occur at the far end almost instantly. <<<<
A better example would be to take a hose sprinkler which is attached to a water source at one end and plugged at the other end with small holes throughout the length to allow the water to sprinkle on the lawn. If you open the plug at the end of the hose, you will see each of the sprinkler holes lose pressure in order from the end of the hose to the water source. On a short 25' hose this happens quickly, but by no means is it immediate. If the plug is partially opened, the difference in water pressure along the length of the hose will be sustained.
Tom
Would this be an inconvenient time to point out that water is
a liquid and as such is incompressible? Air is a gas and it
is compressible.
Think about air brakes vs automotive hydraulic brakes. On the
latter, the pressure in the line is changed by varying the force
on the piston. The piston hardly moves and the amount of fluid
in the system certainly doesn't change.
Air roughly follows the ideal gas law: pressure*volume is proprtional
to temperature*number of molecules. To change air pressure, assuming
the temperature is not changed by heating or cooling the system,
you have to change either the volume or the amount of air. On
a mile long brake pipe, the volume stays essentially constant, so
a reduction of 10% of the brake pipe pressure means 10% of the air
must be removed from the system, hence the hissing sound at the
brake stand.
The speed at which air can flow through a restricting orifice
is a function of the length versus the diameter of the orifice
and the pressure differential. The brake pipe is a long, narrow
straw and it takes a while for the air to flow. The amount of time
that it takes to equalize the brake pipe, i.e. for all points to
reach the desired reduction, is a function largely of the effective
diameter of the brake pipe and its length.
It has very little to do with the speed of pressure waves
(sound) in air at 1 atm pressure (the oft-cited figure of ~900fps).
Now, it may work out that the numbers are similar, but that's
a coincidence. Yeah, in the limit, there is an minute pressure
drop which travels at the speed of sound to the last car, but that's
not what sets the brakes. To continue the balloon analogy, a more
accurate experiment is to take a series of small balloons,
representing the branch piping at each car, and connect them with
long narrow straws. Fill them all up and then open the first
straw to atmosphere. The first balloon will be deflated fairly
quickly while the last balloon will take much longer, and each
balloon along the chain will be somewhere in between.
If you want to know how long it really takes for the service
reduction to reach the last car, take the reduction on
the automatic brake handle, then count how many seconds before
the thing stops hissing.
Now, to understand what happens in emergency, which is called
quick-action, put a flow sensor in each of these hypothetical
long straws and rig it so when the flow rate exceeds a certain
amount, a pin sticks out and pops the balloon. Now, pop the first
balloon in the chain, this is effectively what dumping the train
does. There will be a chain reaction, and the emergency brake
application move quickly through the train. That rate of
propagation obviously can't be faster than the speed of sound. It
is probably a little bit slower.
>>> That rate of propagation obviously can't be faster than the speed of sound. <<<
Great explanation, Jeff, I understood it right up to the above sentence. Although I agree that it is doubtful that the rate of propagation would be faster than the speed of sound, why is it impossible for it to be faster than the speed of sound?
Tom
Supersonics is not my area of expertise, that's more of an
aero-mech engineering thing. Generally, air won't travel
faster than the speed of sound except under exceptional
circumstances. That's why supersonic aircraft are so tricky.
Yes, I was aware that there were factors for which I did not account, since I do not know the factors, or the fromula or math involved, however the system does work on a pressure reduction not a movement of a medium as in an automobile braking sustem.
Subway and passenger trains are too short to worry about this delay, and their mor rigidly connected couplers make slack run in a largely non-issue.
Freight trains are different, and in the old days of the caboose, a pipe reduction *could* be initiated from the caboose to keep the train strung out. The newer FREDs also alow for this, but some of the older ones do not. I am not sure if this is only used in emergency or for regular service application.
Elias
Subway and passenger trains are too short to worry about this delay, and their mor rigidly connected couplers make slack
run in a largely non-issue.
That's true about the couplers. Different railways felt
differently about brake lag. Passenger trains demanded
smoother braking than freight (freight doesn't complain when
its coffee cup tips over) and rapid transit operations required
quicker brakes to keep schedule time.
Most adopted electro-pneumatic braking early on (by the 1920s).
The Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee is at least one example of
a first-class passenger road that ran up to 10 car trains
with schedule AMU braking, no electropneumatic. Pacific Electric
would be another example.
_AMU_?
Don't they live in New Zeland?
Unless they've come up with a further improved FRED the only ones I saw before my "retirement" only emergency app's could be applied by FRED, no service app's. Last one I saw May 1999.
The last cabooses bought by BN about 1980 [or so] also had an emergency only conductor's valve, instead of the multi-position valves that you could make service applications from the caboose with.
Thought this might be of interest.
The speed of sound is slightly over 1000fps at sea level.
The 900 ft/s figure is about right. From my Class I days, I remember reading that on RR type equipment, each car has a valve that senses a rapid drop in brake pipe pressure (quick service?) When an emergency brake pipe reduction is made, the valve in the adjacent car(s) vents brake pipe to atmosphere, then the valve in the next car does the same, etc. Note that the B.P. pressure does not have to drop to zero locally before this happens- the valves open as soon as the pressure BEGINS to drop (rapidly). Strictly speaking, the air does not move at 900 f/s, but the brake pipe PROPAGATION does.
...are you the Eggman?...
My original assertion was that a brake pipe application traveled at 900 fps. I then corrected this when a HELPFUL subtalker reminded me of the quick service feature for BIE. Thank you for confirming the fact that a BIE travels at 900 fps.
"Strictly speaking, the air does not move at 900 f/s",
This was exactly the point that I was going to make to JERKEY MIKE but his mind has no spare capacity.
Yeah whatever. I was refering to brake applications and was corrected that it only applied to BIE's (by someone other than yourself) to which I said fine. You kept fighting me tooth and nail and now that someone finally confirmed my ascertion your backpeadaling to cover your ass.
Mike, just killfile the JERK. I just did and it makes life a lot better.
In that case, I hope you enjoy continuing to be ill informed.
-Hank
I prefer to engage people instead of running away w/ my hands over my ears. To do so would be to sink to their level.
>>> just killfile [Train Dude]. I just did and it makes life a lot better. <<<
Probably that was a mistake, since in spite of his abrasive personality, Train Dude frequently has good technical information. You are throwing out the baby with the bath water if you have an interest in technical aspects of the NYC subways.
Tom
Also, as much as one may eschew confrontational threads, when someone else is the target of Train Dude's disdain, his put-downs can be VERY entertaining.
Jerk? Coming from a person who says Shemp was his favorite, that's high praise, indeed.
David B. you are the WEAKEST LINK goodbye...
Mike, Thanks for not putting me in your 'Killfile'. I feel so relieved. Now, as to the 930 ft/sec. thing, perhaps you'd like to go back into the archives. IIRC, this debate started over a discusion that you were not part of - trainline wires for MU brake application and release. At that time you interjected that it should not be necessary since air brake applications on freight trains travel at the now famous 930 ft/sec. Jeff H properly pointed out that the number sounded a tad fast to which you replied that an engineer told you so. Now that it's clarified (where the 930 feet/sec. actually comes from), it seems that you were the one who was wrong and it is you who once again is backpeddling.
Jeff H (or someone) helpfully pointed out that only applied to BIE to which I said "yes you're right, thank you." You, continued to insist that it was wrong. I also said 900, not 930.
I don't care if you insult people, you don't have to be kind to people. If you do choose to tell someone that their facts are wrong, then POST THE CORRECT ONES. Otherwise you look even stupider than the person posting misinformation. How am I supposed to avoid misinformation if you don't provide the correct info?
Actually, I do, usually post the correct information, albiet in my own time. I don't, however, see how only pointing out the errors of others make me seem more stupid (BTW: Stupider is not in Websters)than they are. If railfan putz (for example) posts that Lincoln was shot by Rodney Dangerfield, I think it's adequate to say "Bullshit". It makes me no less intelligent if I don't say that it was actually John Belushi.
BTW: Stupider is not in Websters
It's in American Heritage. Besides, if -er can be added to the end of an adjective without sounding weird, then it's a comparative adjective.
But still, I don't know what a WD's aspect looks like or how it's enforced.
BTW, I would appreciate you didn't diminish my handle.
To answer your serious question, the WD aspect is lunar white. It's illuminated when activated by the appropriate route selection. It is solid when the approaching train is at or below the required speed and flashes when the train spees is in excess of it. Contrary to mr137st, the WD has its own stoparm and does not function in conjunction with any other wayside signals. BTW; this information was taken from the "Signal Familiarization" book published by the NYCT Signal Division
He does that a lot.
I'm not too sure if you guys are familiar with Door Enablers on the R40/40M and R42 type cars (I dont think Ive ever seen them on other types of cars). The purpose for them is to make sure the conductor doesnt open the doors on the wrong side of the train....the train operator has to hit a button in his cab to allow the contuctor to open the doors. In other words YES you need two people to open the doors. You can tell which cars are equipped with door enablers just by looking at the number plate, if there is a Red Diamond underneath that means the car is equipped with it. I know it happened after Myrtle Ave but for about 3 stations in a row. The train pulled in and just sat there. No doors opening. The conductor over the PA tells the T.O. to open the door. It happend at the next station the same thing..the train just sat there. The conductor says "Yo, partner" the the T.O. over the PA. There was no response. Then there is a "Hellooooooooooooooooo partner" over the PA. Then the doors open. I think the T.O was napping up there or checking someone out because he was obviously distracted. My ride felt like an extra 10 minutes because of the laziness of the T.O. I just think its dumb to have 2 people open up the doors for a single 8 car train if it will slow people down from getting to work on time. Any opinions??
Anthony
Well it did not here of the R40/40M have them install yet, But I have heard of one or two trains of R46's on the G line having it and a train of R32's having them now. Also the R44's were the first ones to have them. The Enasblers are sometime are a pain in the A$$. I sometimes forget to push the botton, so to overcome this a hold the botton after I know the Train is going to stop at about 2mph. This way I know that the door will open.
Robert
About 85% of the R42 M&K fleet are equipped with the door enablers. All the cars on the consist must be enabler equipped or the system is bypassed and the C/R can open the doors without permission. There are no enablers on the R40M or R42 CI equipment, but I'm sure that they're on order.
Operating with the door enabler can be quite confusing for a T/O. I work with them very often and I can tell you that I'm good for about two stops a trip to forget. After about 4 seconds, I won't hear the doors open and that'll be my cue to wake up.
There are no enablers on the R40M or R42 CI equipment, but I'm sure that they're on order.
Are you sure?? I think I have seen them on R-42's. I will take some pictures with my digital camera on my way to work tomorrow just in case I do spot one. :)
>>>>>>>>>Are you sure?? I think I have seen them on R-42's.
Well, there are two types of R42's.
R42 M&K (4550-4839) have enablers on the majority of cars (85% est.).
R42 CI (4840-4949) and R40M (4450-4549) do not have enablers installed at this time.
I had some slow T/O's when it comes to the Enable button. It takes about 4 Minutes out of the run. I also had times where just before I close the front section of the train the enable gets taken away. It happened acouple of times it only a bad thing if someone should be rushing for the train and get stuck in the doors because now I can't reopen until the T/O gives me the button back. So now as the Conductor I have 2 options. 1. The person some how will get out of the Door and the indication light comes on. 2. The T/O will enable me and the enable light will come on so I can open the doors otherwise we just sit and wait.
To reduce its operating deficit and provide money for capital projects, including equipment improvements, the Roosevelt Island Operating Corp is considering ending service at 10 PM each night instead of 2 AM (3:30 weekends).
Daily News story
Hasn't anyone figured it out yet? Despite all the kvetching (that's Yiddish for complaining) about the subway service , a lot of the revenue has been diverted from the Tram since the 63rd St tunnel opened. There are peope who live on RI who work in midtown and downtown and now that they can get there on one fare and not having to walk from 1st Av all the way to Lexington Av to get a train why should they take the Tram?
I predict that once the F starts the 24/7 thru 63rd St you are going to see even more $$ problems on the Tram.
Let them close it altogether or use it as a tourist attraction. This in NYC not the Swiss Alps.
You're right about that. Housing developers eagerly awaited the start of 63rd St service.
I would hope they don't get rid of it. It is one of New York's unique charms. Why should only Swiss Alpers have something like that? I've taken it - you get a beautiful view. I think as a tourist attraction and historical exhibit it has value.
It could be a tourist attraction, but I have ridden the tram on a few occasions, and it can be scary as hell, especially on a windy day.
Given the option of a one fare, one seat ride into Manhattan, most folk vote with their feet and take the subway.
YOU got that right.It is horrorble![not that I'M afrid of heights ,you know]
I rode the tram once on a lunch break. It was okay but the schedule at that time didn't permit more than arriving on RI and take the next tram back. On the return trip we passed a RI bound tram. There was a maintenace man ON THE ROOF of the tram as it was moving over the east river....Guess that's one man who is not afraid of heights or in desperate need of a job.
Sure. He was probably the same "maintenace man" who tightroped between the two Twin Towers.
Nah ... leftover stunt extra from that "Nighhawk" movie Sylvester Stallone and Billy Dee Williams did 22 years ago. He just never got the word the shoot was over :-)
I liked the part where Stallone drove that bus into the East River. Reminds me of the joke, "Driver, does this bus stop at the river?"
"If it doesn't, there'll be one helluva splash."
Did you pass the other tram on your way there?
-Hank
It's on the wrong side of the bridge to make a decent tourist attraction.
-Hank
Yes I can imagine that the RI tram can be scary. It reminds me of the Bronx Zoo cable cars, which I only rode once. That was a scary feeling.
What's the difference b/t a tram and a cable car?
N/W
Not a whole lot. The Sky Ride at Palisades Amusement Park and the Swiss Sky Ride at Coney Island, not to mention the cable cars at the 1964-65 World's Fair, operate on the same principle. So do San Francisco's cable cars.
Then, Is the word Tram connected to transportation?
N/W
The two words can be used interchangeably. In addition, a tram also refers to a streetcar.
Other than the one to Roosevelt Island, are any aerial cable cars called trams? I don't know of any.
In fact, a tram is a cable car, ESPECIALLY one suspended from an overhead cable.
Just as the American Heritage Dictionary.
Examples? I've only heard the term used for trolleys (and, of course, the beast under discussion now). Even the San Francisco cable cars, which are quite trolley-like to the untrained eye, aren't called trams.
There are peope who live on RI who work in midtown and downtown and now that they can get there on one fare and not having to walk
from 1st Av all the way to Lexington Av to get a train why should they take the Tram?
The Tram station in Manhattan is at 2nd Ave between 59th and 60th Sts
There is a subway entrance at 3rd Ave and 60th Sts for the BMT local station that connects to midtown and downtown.
I predict that once the F starts the 24/7 thru 63rd St you are going to see even more $$ problems on the Tram.
Let them close it altogether or use it as a tourist attraction. This in NYC not the Swiss Alps.
I agree with your analysis. The major question for the state is whether the Tram is whether or not the Tram is a necessary loss leader to guarantee a high occupancy rate.
I'm surprise the tram is still operating since the subway was put in.
N/W Broadway Lines
Wasn't the Tram supposed to be temporary ?
Bill "Newkirk"
So is the Manhattan Bridge work :)
--Mark
IIRC the Tram was put in as an easy-to-build stopgap until subway service could be provided. Before the tram people had to take a bus into Queens to catch the subway.
Extrapolating their figures, they seem to be arguing that the tram loses $4.75 a trip after 10 p.m.
I'm not in favor of cutting any transit service generally, but IF its the only way to raise money for improvements, it doesn't seem horrible to cut back after 10, considering there has been 24 hour subway service provided for the last dozen years.
I agree. Marginal cost and the availability of alternatives matter.
I'll have to get on that TRAM one day. It's one of the few forms of mass transit I haven't used.
Whaddythink of all those folks in a state-sponsored development who are too good for the subway?
The tram should become part of the Metrocard system, functioning as a bus route with full transfer privileges between it and other buses and the subway. To quote the Mayor, "one City, one fare".
I agree, but the tram is operated by RIOC, not the MTA. Roosevelt Island buses also have their own fare system.
Although this should be on Bus-Talk, what kind of buses run on RI, fares and are they MTA?
Isn't there a free loop shuttle bus on the island?
The "Red Bus" is run by Roosevelt Island Operating Corp., a state entity; the fare is 25¢, and I think they run New Flyer D40LFs. The Q102 (Queens Surface) also serves the Island.
I'm surprised to hear that it's even running.
E_DOG
I was on vacation last week and missed a lot of posts, so please forgive this possible repetition. I just found Keystone Pete's "Day One of the W" photos and would like to say "Well done, Pete".
Thanks, Bob.
I spent a long weekend last week visiting The Seashore Trolley Museum and Boston. I hope to complete a page about that trip this weekend. I got some good pix of the Green Line doing some street-running (it does so in little bits here and there), which I am partial to, as you know.
On the other hand, those two photos DaWheelFlange posted last Tuesday of the AE trainset put any of mine to shame!
KP
On the other hand, those two photos DaWheelFlange posted last Tuesday of the AE trainset put any of mine to shame!
And mine! I'm still in awe of those pix. I emailed them to a railfan friend who's too busy to do his own websurfing.
2nd Notice: Meet by 10 AM at the Brooklyn bound end of the A/C at Chambers Street. Please be on time and E-mail me if you expect to go.
Gary, et., al.,
Have a very enjoyable time !
The BMTman's photos & my write up are in Dave's hands ... please take lots of photos to add to the "Field Trip" report.
Consider getting off before you reach the LIRR Long Beach station ... some real nice places to have lunch & mix with the beautiful people.
Gary, etc. if you bring your significant other tell her/him only one eyeball got married, the other is allowed to look (however all the other body parts got married ;-)
Was at the Turquoise Wednesday night. My daughter & grandson got all wet in the rough surf (this time we brought a change of cloths so we didn't have to got looking for some place that was open). I got the bottom of my shorts wet but had to stay that way because I didn't have a change of cloths. There was some kind of volleyball tournament going on just down the beach.
BTW, I'll be in Delaware, but be thinking of you folks.
Mr t__:^)
The writer has just located an official large NYCTA engineeering drawing, #7-A-417-SLB, which may clarify some of the facts regarding the 76th Street Station. The original drawing was dated September 11, 1951, and titled: Block Signalling and Interlocking, General Signal Arrangement, Line "A", Pitkin Avenue Yard, Scale 1" = 80'. The drawing was updated on June 8, 1956 (just prior to the opening of the extension to the Rockaways). It shows the entire Pitkin yard and its connections to the mainline, Hudson Street ramp, and future 76th Street Interlocking. The drawing states "Traffic Control between Euclid Avenue and Future 76th Street Interlockings and Pitkin Avenue Yard Interlocking for Tracks A5, A6, A7 and A8." The drawing clearly shows active tracks, numbered A7 and A8, between the Pitkin Yard and the stub end bulkhead located approximately 270' northeast of switches numbered 65 and 67; these tracks had led to the 76th Street Station before the bulkhead installation. The bulkhead has the notation beside it stating "To 76th Street Line "A".
The map detailing where tracks A7 and A8 led to will be found on Drawing Number 7-A-370SL, which I do not have.
It will be quite interesting if the actual present day status of this never used section and station could be actually determined. It also appears strange that perhaps little or no routine infrastructure maintenance has been done to these abandoned tunnels or station since the bulkheads were erected, as has been routinely done with other unused NYCTA tunnels. If so, could this possibly, over a period of time, endanger the area directly above the tunnels?
One last thought, maybe a bit far out, but perhaps not. If this station and the surrounding areas do in fact still exist, would this not make an excellent satellite display area for the NYC Transit Museum, and provide good underground storage for the ever-growing fleet of museum cars?
Now I'm getting interested all over again.
Steve who said he spoke with some TA workers years ago who said they claimed seeing the station itself, claimed that the station tiles were blue.
I would think they should be purple. Why ?
Start at Bway/Easy New York. The tile band is blue. All local stations east of Bway/ENY are also blue but a verticle rectangular size. Next Express station, Euclid Ave, purple tiles. That means all local stations east of Euclid Ave should have a purple tile code.
Grant Ave. doesn't count, since it is a diverging route and the tile code is green.
Anyone agree with this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Coming after red Utica Ave, Bway/East New York (and the following local stations) should have been purple, and Euclid Ave (and its following local stations) should have been blue. According to the original IND pattern of purple-blue-green-yellow-red, purple follows red (as purple 42 St follows red 34th St-Penn Sta, purple Queens Plaza follows red Ely Ave, purple Fordham Rd follows red Tremont Av, purple 179 St follows red Parsons Blvd). In "Uptown, Downtown" Stan says that someone forgot the color scheme, but I've never believed that. I don't know why Bway/East New York was mis-tiled.
Well, this past Tuesday, July 31, 2001, I myself actually went to the location and area where the 76th Street-Pitkin Avenue IND station might have been planned and located. I surveyed the sidewalks and building property lines at that site, and I could not see any real physical evidence that a station (less alone an entrance or sidewalk grating) may have been built.
For one thing, the four sidewalk corners at 76th Street and Pitkin Avenue are too narrow at best, and there are private homes each located on its corner. I inspected the manhole covers, and they all seem to say "NYC SEWER". The nearest subway grating was on Pitkin Avenue near Grant Avenue (nearby that IND "A" line station).
If you wish to check out the area yourself, you may do so by taking the "A" train to Grant Avenue station, and walk east on Pitkin Avenue as it goes downhill, perhaps to trace the possible route it was planned to be. Please note that the 77th Street exit of the 80th Street-Hudson Street station in Queens has a part-time booth only open between 6:20am and 9:20am weekdays.
-William A. Padron
My question is, did the Pitkin Ave line continue under Pitkin ave or did it slant to the right and follow under the center medium of Conduit Ave. as it headed to the east?
Avid
Under Pitkin.
. It also appears strange that perhaps little or no routine infrastructure maintenance has been done to these abandoned tunnels or station since the bulkheads were erected, as has been routinely done with other unused NYCTA tunnels. If so, could this possibly, over a period of time, endanger the area directly above the tunnels?
Good question. The one tunnel this might come closest to is the Jerome/Sedgwick tunnel in the Bronx. Nothing has been done with it since the tracks were removed in the early 1960s. No maintenence of any kind is performed. The tunnel is sealed but there is ventilation. Previous subtalkers indicate that this 76th St station also has ventilaion even though access is sealed.
I would think that if the tunnel collapses and takes the road abov with it, it's a NYC DOT issue. If it runs under homes, it might be an "easement" issue, where the landlord above the tunnel is actually responsible for it, even if they don't know the tunnel is there.
At least, that's what we were told about the Polo Grounds shuttle tunnel - I guess the same rules would apply for 76th St.
--Mark
The Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel, or actually the underground portion of the 9th Avenue El, was built upon after it closed. The trackways and tunnels are now the basements for several buildings along 162nd Street. So much for the possibility of a tunnel collapse.
The Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel, or actually the underground portion of the 9th Avenue El, was built upon after it closed. The trackways and tunnels are now the basements for several buildings along 162nd Street. So much for the possibility of a tunnel collapse.
Not quite. Having done the tunnel tour in January 2000, I recall only one "basement" situation - a stairway near the east portal that ran up to what I believe is an abandoned laundry. There are no other entrances into the tunnel from the buildings above.
Agreed. I even videotaped the "tour". There are no other entrances anywhere. The stairways leading to Sedgwick Ave are also sealed over, and remnants of one remain.
I can almost guarantee that 80% of the people who live there have no idea that trains once ran beneath them until 1958.
--Mark
Reading between the lines of your post, I don't see anything in what you have that shows that the line was actually built.
I had a little correspondence with Joe Brennan on this and at this point I have to agree with him that, in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary (like a photo, or a reliable eyewitness) that this does not exist, except on paper.
Ok, so wait. What about the 4 dead-end tracks that dont go into the yard between Grant and Euclid Ave Stations. Do they have something to do with the 76 St Station. Because I think those tracks (as short as they are) run under Conduit Blvd. If there ever is a trip to go explore this "Secret Station" COUNT ME IN!!!! I live right in the area and would like to check it out.
Anthony
Tony,
Look for Manhole covers with NYCTS lettering on them. They may be on the sidwalks or in the street. There are some of these near Acquduct station, on the sidewalk of North Conduit. I beleive these are for cable vaults for Power cables. There just might be some around 76th and Pitkin. I'm Guessing here. Maybe around that slight hill on Pitkin near the Public School, I don't know the number, P.S. or I.S. something.
avid
What 76th Street Station? Could somebody please fill me in on this (including history)?
- Lyle Goldman
...are in service as of Tuesday.
A couple of months ago I made a cryptic reference to the Brighton Line getting its day on TV. I didn't say more because I don't believe in "praising the day before its done" as I was unsure when, or even if, the show would air.
Now I've just been informed that Metro TV (Channel 70 Time Warner, 16 Cablevision) is going to air "Subway Obsession" as a segment of their Gotham TV show. It should be about a 5-minute segment out of the hour show, and is scheduled to air initially at:
Monday 8/6 at 9pm & 2am (next morning?)
Tuesday, 8/7 at 4pm
This will probably be rerun at unknown times over the coming months until you're sick of it, but the time above are the ones I have.
The film crew and I spent an entire day starting at Franklin/Fulton and working our way down to Stillwell with stops at Malbone Street, Prospect Park, Avenue H and Brighton Beach. This will all be condensed to about 5 minutes. I have no idea what the program will look like, what they used and what they discarded. I know they took a lot of footage out the front of a hippo on the Shuttle, and lots of run-bys and atmosphere shots. I also supplied nice old pictures for them to use as before and afters.
A handful of select railroad icons like myself already knew of this project, such as Heypaul (who first proposed the project) and the all-important BMTMan.
If this piece turns out nicely, you can praise me for advancing the art of subway history. If it turns out badly, I will change my name, grow a beard and move to Paraguay. If it turns out really badly, all railfans will have to change their names, grow beards, and move to Paraguay.
Someone want to tape it for those of us in Comcastland? (They dont' do Metro)
-Dave
Of course I'm going to record it, but I don't have the means to duplicate it or make it into a web format.
I'm hoping Gotham TV might provide me with streaming media for my web site (and permission, obviously) but the people who could do this, even if it is possible, aren't the same people who I worked with to make this, so it's all up in the air.
It's great to hear that the Brighton is going to be featured on TV, especially since it is back on the BMT where she belongs. With all the banter going on between me and Bob, Q, and the rest of the Brighton boys you would have thought I despised that line. Far from it. Next to my Sea Beach it was my favorite. In fact, my favorite stop on any subway as a kid was Prospect Park Station. That took me on a two block walk to Ebbets Field to see my then beloved Dodgers.
Anything that features the NY Subway on TV or in film passes muster with me. The only thing I can't understand is why so many New Yorkers are so oblivious to the treasure they have.
Actually, Gotham TV has a regular show called "Subway Q&A." It's not about subways per se, but they're always on the subway, where they interview people and goof on them and so on. In 20 years, railfans will probably love it for the "slice of time" look at the subway system c.2000.
I've never seen this show mentioned here so I guess folks here either haven't seen it or don't care for it.
For info, click here, then clock on SUBWAY Q&A.
It has been mentioned here once or twice.
Don't care for it, myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
All Important BMT-Man, dang he is gonna get a swelled head....
gonna...as if he already didn't HAVE one?
Peace,
ANDEE
If I could get it turned into RealVideo, would you host it on your site (provided it's good enough)?
Depends on how big it is, and of course, with permission from the TV people. I also don't have real video streaming software so it would be better off in mpg or avi.
You don't need special streaming software. My friend uses Geocities, puts his .rms up, and there are three ways of viewing them:
1. Click on it, IE downloads the entire file and then RealVideo opens and plays it.
2. Right click on it, click save as, it saves to the hard drive and then open it in RealVideo.
3. Open RealVideo and type the location in, the Player does all the streaming work.
A five minute file takes up about 7 megabytes, at 160x120 screen size.
Of course, you would have to get some sort of permission.
[A handful of select railroad icons like myself already knew of this project, such as Heypaul (who first proposed the project) and the all-important BMTMan.]
Paul, shouldn't that be 'the self-absorbed BMTman'?
[If this piece turns out nicely, you can praise me for advancing the art of subway history. If it turns out badly, I will change my name, grow a beard and move to Paraguay. If it turns out really badly, all railfans will have to change their names, grow beards, and move to Paraguay.]
In anticipation of the Metro TV special being a stinker, I hear it that heypaul has already decided to move to Paraguay....;-D
BMTman
In anticipation of the Metro TV special being a stinker, I hear it that heypaul has already decided to move to Paraguay....;-D
Why? He has all those extra personalities that he can use.
HEY....I'm the one with the excess personalalalaities(sic). Let's get that strait right NOW.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's official.
They spelled my name wrong. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets. Butt, heyy, itt's tthe pricce off famme.
(It's official.
They spelled my name wrong. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets. Butt, heyy, itt's tthe pricce off famme.)
Well Paul, I had your age about right, but I expected more hair.
I'm 40 today. More hair, but more fat too.
Well Paul, I had your age about right, but I expected more hair.
Well, I've got a little more hair than it looks like in the photo. My hair in the front has gone completely white--I knew I should have gotten out my can of Richard Kimble shoe polish before going on the shoot! ;-)
But Monday evening you'll know the whole truth and I won't be able to explain it away.
I'm 40 today.
Ah! Best wishes and Mavel Tov! But through the didactic wisdom of my extra 15 years, let me share the fruit of my experience. If you can keep fit, the muscles go later than the hair--I still press more than all but the biggest 20-somethings at my gym. Alas, the joints also go before the muscles, but so far I'm hanging in there.
If it turns out really badly, all railfans will have to change their names, grow beards, and move to Paraguay.
Well, I've already got the beard, and I speak Spanish, so I'm just about ready... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rode the J yesterday from Chambers to Canal and noticed all the work going on in the center platform.
right after leaving Chambers, when the train is switching over to the middle track, I noticed a curve in the wall, it looks like there might be a tunnel there? Any idea?
That would probably be the old Nassua Street Loop connection to the south tracks on the MB.
The curve in the wall is going east right before Chambers as if you were wrong railing into Chambers on the Northbound platform. It is like a highway entrance merge from the right.
For going to the Manny B, wouldn't it be like an off ramp of a highway?
I've decided to take a tour of the subway.The forgotten subway.In a span of 3 weeks I will make a subway update to the 3 most Notorius abndoned stations.
1.9th avenue lowe level BMT
2.City hall IRT
3.Undecided.Either 42nd street lower level,City hall lower level BMT,or 18th street IRT.
I also remind you that the Why and why not crap is a withdrawed statement.
very very good, email me and join our group of Experienced Urban Explorers, Playland and The Joe (using names without permission) are part of this organization.
Me? i'd never go into a tunnel. You eastern block peoples be crazy. heh!
Me? I'd ONLY go into a tunnel. I eastern block people is/are crazy.
1.At the base of South ferry park,how deep is the water ?
2.Is it possible to build an elevated line and if so how long will it take compared to a tunnel ?
3.How may miles is Manhatthan from Staten Island ?
4.Is it possible to build an under water tunnel with a BMT(boring) machine and if so,how long will it take?
5.Is it possible to connect a new line with an older(example:The Clark street tunnel with th Water street tunnel)?
6.Is a new subway line needed for the West side of Staten Island?
and finally
7.Is it possible to add another line to the Eastern Parkway express(4)?
Some follow up questions:
1. How long is a 10-foot pole?
2. Who's buried in Grant's Tomb?
3. What color is an orange?
Just kidding. A little levity.
Carry on.
You forgot 'why is the south so far south?'
Everyone knows napolean is buried in grants' tomb.
I'm sorry, the correct answer is George Washington.
Actually, it's President and Mrs. Ulysess S. Grant.
subfan
You obviously missed that episode.
-Hank
You obviously missed that episode.
And no one is buried in Grant's tomb. It's above ground. That's the ORIGINAL joke. If you're not sub-surface, you're not buried.
-Hank
I'm don't know what episode you're refering to - I watch very little TV. You did get me though with the underground/above ground issue.
subfan
4) During the 1999 Irish Sheepdog Trials how many dogs were found guilty?
5) Spell LONDON, BELFAST, DUBLIN, GUINNESS and SCOTCH
6) Where is the basement of a three-story building?
7) What colour is a red train?
8) At what time is "News at Ten" on?
9) Approximately how many commandments was Moses given?
10) What musical instrument does Vinny the Violinist play?
Enquiring Minds Want To Know!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
1. Can't answer
2. It could be possible it would take 2 to 4 years. It would not happen though cause of the cost and it might ruin the skyline. (The Brooklyn Battery Tunnel was supposed to be a bridge but cause of the skyline it was declined so one to S.I. would be knocked out for the same reason)
3. It depends if it goes through New Jersey straight it will be 5 miles. If it aviodied the New Jersey Border for political reasons it will be 5.5 to 6 miles.
4. Yes, that is the best option. It will only be .20 as long as the channel tunnel. It will take longer then a bridge. 5-7 years.
5. Cant answer
6. It could be ground level if the old trackways exist still, it might be gone. If it exists stil then it will be ground level (open cut)
7. Cant answer
2. It could be possible it would take 2 to 4 years. It would not happen though cause of the cost and it might ruin the skyline. (The Brooklyn Battery Tunnel was supposed to be a bridge but cause of the skyline it was declined so one to S.I. would be knocked out for the same reason)
NO. It won't be done because it would be incredibly stupid, incredibly costly, and such an impediment to sfe navigation of the harbor that the Corps of Engineers would LAUGH in the face of such a proposal.
3. It depends if it goes through New Jersey straight it will be 5 miles. If it aviodied the New Jersey Border for political reasons it will be 5.5 to 6 miles.
It's 5 miles as the crow flies, between St. George and Whitehall. There are closer parts of Manhattan. Why the hell is New Jersey any part of the equation?
4. Yes, that is the best option. It will only be .20 as long as the channel tunnel. It will take longer then a bridge. 5-7 years.
You got one right. But it'll take more than 7 years to get through the public hearings and environmental reviews.
6. It could be ground level if the old trackways exist still, it might be gone. If it exists stil then it will be ground level (open cut)
This MIGHT have been a legitimate answer, IF such a line had ever existed at any point in the past. There's no point for west shore passenger service, as there are NO POTENTIAL PASSENGERS. The area is totally industrial/wetlands.
-Hank
1.At the base of South ferry park,how deep is the water ?
Answer: This is an easy one. At the base of south ferry park the water goes all the way to the bottom
2.Is it possible to build an elevated line and if so how long will it take compared to a tunnel ?
Answer: Another easy one. Yes! Elevated lines can be built. It's been tried before. I think they are 31% faster per mile to build than a tunnel of equal length but only for straight track. It's slower around curves.
3.How may miles is Manhatthan from Staten Island ?
Can you clarify your question. From what part of manhattan to what part of Staten island?
4.Is it possible to build an under water tunnel with a BMT(boring) machine and if so,how long will it take?
The BMT does not have a boring machine. You on the other hand are very.
5.Is it possible to connect a new line with an older(example:The Clark street tunnel with th Water street tunnel)?
Answer: Yes, I think they tried it with 63rd St. and with Archer Avenue most recently. I'm pretty sure it can be done based on those two tests.
6.Is a new subway line needed for the West side of Staten Island?
Is there an old subway line there?
and finally (THANK YOU LORD)
7.Is it possible to add another line to the Eastern Parkway express(4)?
Answer: Yes, it can be done like this: Eastern Parkway express. With the right HTML tags, you could also likely add still another line above, too.
Now one additional question, if I might. What do you do for a living?
1.By how deep I mean how many feet
2.Thank you
3.From South Ferry to St George
4.A BMT machine is is a machine used to dig through soil.And not funny.
5.Thank you
6.Does the RESIDENTS of WEST STATEN ISLAND need a nnnnnew subway line?
Not funny
7.The 4 in brooklyn.(duh)
Your question:I'm a former softwar designer.I'm trying to start my on company.Why do you ask.
By the way:What do you do for a living
What do you do for a living ?
I'm a shepherd........
...with a very warped sense of humor. I haven't laughed that hard in along time, Steve.
Who likes lamb chops well done.
-Hank :)
I'm a shepherd........
Of Hippos in the Bronx. Lets all give him a cheer !
Mr t__:^)
And Redbirds waiting to go for a swim......
Very funny anwsers to some really pointless questions.......
>>I'm a shepherd........<<
Sheep!?! SHEEP?!? I would not call those sheep! maybe if you were in ENY or something, but those are not sheep. Hippos is a fitting name; fast, big and powerful.
And, those responses (to MrX2001, this is how you spell response: 'respoze'. Replace the 'c' with a 'z'. That should fix that pesky problem.), were funny.
Seriously, MrX, where do you get this stuff? What does the 3rd av el have to do with the 2nd av subway? nothing.
Reading posts on subtalk doesn't qualify as research. I've read some total crap on subtalk. I've had people tell me things that I know aren't true (ex. a "poster who will remain nameless" told me that 6 cars do not support the G line, it needs 8 car R-46's. Of course, I ride the line every day during the school year, And unless the G is late, there is no need for 8 cars, unless everybody needs a seat.
Don't ask silly questions and expect serious answers. The more and more you continue to post this garbage, the more people will begin taking your posts as a joke. As it stands, people don't take you seriously because of the stuff you post, and even if you did post real posts people would take them lightly.
And, I'd like to let you know what Train Dude does for a living, so that this can stop. He works in a 'brass' position at a TA facility (Discreet enough for ya T. Dude?) He is entitled to a lot of information, not to say that he isn't occasionally wrong. (that's "where the hell he gets his crap") Some subtalkers are priviledged to work in TA positions, and they have info that we don't.
Anyway, take that into consideration, please? It would be helpful. I wouldn't want to put anyone on 'killfile' (not to say that other people haven't already done this).
>>I'm a shepherd........<<
Sheep!?! SHEEP?!? I would not call those sheep! maybe if you were in ENY or something, but those are not sheep. Hippos is a fitting name; fast, big and powerful.
And, those responses (to MrX2001, this is how you spell response: 'respoze'. Replace the 'c' with a 'z'. That should fix that pesky problem.), were funny.
Seriously, MrX, where do you get this stuff? What does the 3rd av el have to do with the 2nd av subway? nothing.
Reading posts on subtalk doesn't qualify as research. I've read some total crap on subtalk. I've had people tell me things that I know aren't true (ex. a "poster who will remain nameless" told me that 6 cars do not support the G line, it needs 8 car R-46's. Of course, I ride the line every day during the school year, And unless the G is late, there is no need for 8 cars, unless everybody needs a seat.
Don't ask silly questions and expect serious answers. The more and more you continue to post this garbage, the more people will begin taking your posts as a joke. As it stands, people don't take you seriously because of the stuff you post, and even if you did post real posts people would take them lightly.
And, I'd like to let you know what Train Dude does for a living, so that this can stop. He works in a 'brass' position at a TA facility (Discreet enough for ya T. Dude?) He is entitled to a lot of information, not to say that he isn't occasionally wrong. (that's "where the hell he gets his crap") Some subtalkers are priviledged to work in TA positions, and they have info that we don't.
Anyway, take that into consideration, please? It would be helpful. I wouldn't want to put anyone on 'killfile' (not to say that other people haven't already done this).
I think people are being a little harsh with MrX2001. After all, he's just a little kid. He *is* just a little kid, right? Please tell me he's a six year-old.
>>He *is* just a little kid, right? Please tell me he's a six year-old.<<
In mind, I think he'll always be 6. But he says he's a computer programmer, and he's already graduated from High School, So, uh, I guess he's older than that...
I've owned a software company for 20 years now. Word up: LEARN CORRECT ENGLISH GRAMMAR AND SPELLING.
Tough Room...
Oh yeah. The irritability quotient in here is pretty high....
Sorry, hemroids. We've even named them.
-Hank :)
For #7 - There already is another line on the Eastern Pkwy express in addition to the 4, the 5 although it is rush hours only.
There is no such thing as a BMT machine. It is called a 'TBM', or Tunnel Boring Machine. It is NOT used to go through 'soil'. It is used to bore through solid rock and clay. Calling it a 'TBM Machine' is redundant.
Good luck with the software design. I work Quality Assurance for a major software firm. Based on the conversation so far, I'd suspect your credentials are false. Your code likely has as many mistakes as your post, which explains the 'former' very well.
-Hank
He said war not ware, perhaps softwar is a code for cold war?
Arti
LOL
Sorry hank there is a BMT machine and his name is BMTDude!!
The man is a machine I tell ya, look at him go when he is on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
Sorry hank there is a BMT machine and his name is BMTDude!! The man is a machine I tell ya, look at him go when he is on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
Or when he's within 100 yards of a buffet table :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>Your question:I'm a former softwar designer.I'm trying to start my on company.Why do you ask.<<<
Software? I hope to God you mean clothing!
*Rimshot*
Thanks folks, I'll be here all week.
TBM .TBM TBM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!bmt?
South Ferry Park? I guess you really mean Battery Park. At low tide, I would guestimate the depth to be somewhere between 20 and 25 feet where the SI Ferry slips are and slightly less than that towards the west. The main shipping channels in the harbor between Manhattan and Staten ISland are supposed to be kept dredged to a mean depth of 40 feet.
The route of the ferry is probably the shortest ditance between the two and is given as 5.1 to 5.2 miles.
They're dredgeing the channels to 50'.
-Hank
That's only the channel that leads through the Kill to Elizabethport. The channle through the harbor towards Manhattan is not being deepened in this go-round.
That's because it doesn't need to be. The harbor itself is 'plenty deep'. Nothing goes up the Hudson that needs more than 30' of draft.
-Hank
Dont mess with da best, Steve'll put you to da test. Thank you train dude for lightening up the evening a bit
From the Alstom website:
[ALSTOM has a strong presence in the North American rail transport sector. The Company recently won orders for the Chicago and New York subways, the New Jersey Transit and the refurbishment of Amtrak locomotives. The Company, in association with Bombardier, is also supplying Amtrak with high-speed trainsets (250 km/h) for the Washington-New York-Boston rail link. ALSTOM's position in the American transport market was further strengthened by the recent acquisition of signalling specialist GRS. ]
Did NYCT have a contract with them?
Alstom is under the Bombardier umbrella. Currently our new Bombardier R-142 Subway Cars are rolling on Alston Wheel Motors. Pretty Big Contract huh?
Also, Alstom is building New Jersey Transit's New Comet V Cars due to premier in the Summer of 2002.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I think they might have been part of that testing on 8 R38's. Experimenting with AC motors. They are now taking them off. Don't know if the test was successful.
1/9:No redbirds.Gone for 10-15 years
2:98% Rebirds,Rest R146.Suppose to get R62a's and R142
3:No Redbirds.Gone for nearly 10 years
4:10-20% Redbirds.RestR62/s .Suppose to get R142
5:99% Redbirds Suppose to get R62's,R62a's and R146's
6:40% Redbirds,Rest R62a's and R142s(By the way,R142's are onlytest trains)suppose to gert R142's(might give it's R62's to the 7)
7:100% Redbirds(These numbers are extremely sad)Suppose to get R62's from 6.
9:No Redbirds.Never seen in 9 service.
The last line to have 100% Redbirds is the 8 befor it's service was discontiued.
Im sorry but what is a R-146 that you have in your memo. Your note is so unclear. Type it again with calrity so some of us can understand you.
By R146's mean R 142's.Sorry on my part.
Redbirds never ran on the 1 or 3 trains. I do recall seeing R29s on the 1, but that was long before they were GOH'ed. They might have also been on the 3 as well (everything ran with everything on the IRT in the early 80s), but that was when they were full of graffiti. As for the 8, more commonly known as the 3rd Avenue El (or whatever was left of it), the only R-type cars to ever run there were R12s and R14s. Those were gone in 1983, long before the Redbird scheme was applied to any car.
Where did you hear the 2 was getting R62As? As far as I know, the 2 is going to be all R142s by the end of this year. And right now, I would say the 2 line is considerably less than 98% Redbirds, more like 78%. No R62As are going to the 2 line. The 6 will probably be all R142As by year's end. The R142As on the 6 train are NOT test trains. They run in regular passenger service, and if I may say so, they run very well. And I would say that the 6 train fleet is much less than 40% Redbirds, more like 20%, maybe even less.
There are three trains of R62As on the 5 right now. They do operate in regular service, but are needed for late-night Dyre Avenue shuttle service, which is OPTO. When the first few sets of R142s assigned to the 5 arrive (these will likely number in the 6700s), the three R62A trains will probably be sent to the 7, along with the Pelham R62As that are on the 6 now as will some R62As from the 3. As far as I know, R62s will not go to the 5 train. They will stay only on the 4. I think Kawasaki R142As from the option order may go to the 4 to replace the Redbirds currently there, but that will probably not happen until sometime next year. Bombardier R142s from that option order will likey go to the 3 to make up for the R62As sent to the 7.
As far as I know that's the plan for the IRT for the next couple of years. If there's anything else, let me know.
You're right R142 #2. Just be easy with the #6 Pelham Local Line figures for the R142. The current status is approx. 1:5-7 trains are of the R142A type.
I'll go to the Bombardier website and see if there are any updates for the R142 car assignments, but I doubt if there will be on the website.
Given measures and facts were accurate (I don't know about GOH's or historical trains (R12- R14's) but I'm sure you're correct).
[The rarity of the R142A's on the #2 - 7th Av. Exp line are as follows:
1:6-7 trains are R142's. (I don't know if they're getting new trains on the tracks EVERYDAY, since the ships that carry the trains can only come during their scheduled boat and shipment times. Also, some selected IRT storage yards can hold masses of R142's before they first 'hit the tracks'. (As opposed to 'hit the road'.)
: )
Railfan Pete.
There are over 13 R-142 trains running on the #2 line say 2 are off on a given day so that makes 11. The #2 needs 31 trains for the rush, so 11/31, that's over a third. I believe the figure is more of 1:2 or 1:3.
But that's for rush hour service. The Transit Workers can discharge random R142's into rail yards (storage & maintenance) where they need to. During normal hours, the ratio doesn't seem so big as to R142's.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Actually, don't you think they would take out redbirds before taking out R142s in the TA's system of new material presiding when it is able to.
Okay here we go:
"1/9:No redbirds.Gone for 10-15 years"
Correct, though I don't know how many years exactly the redbirds were off this line, but nycsubway.org does have pictures of #1 redbirds.
"2:98% Rebirds,Rest R146.Suppose to get R62a's and R142"
{Correction: Rest R142, not R146}
Redbirds are about 60-65% of the fleet now since they're sending some to the 5 and we have many R142s on the line, over 13 trains worth I think. They are not getting R62s or R62As.
"3:No Redbirds.Gone for nearly 10 years"
There have been occasional redbirds on the 3. I don't know why, but they are extremely rare. I got on a redbird late at night at around 11:00 about an hour before the 3s get eliminated, and I got on a redbird all cars signed up for 3. Conductor said it was a 3. Don't forget, 3 is getting R142s as well.
"4:10-20% Redbirds.RestR62/s .Suppose to get R142"
Right except they are not getting R142s except for GOs. You probably mixed up the 3 and 4 as to what line will get R142s.
"5:99% Redbirds Suppose to get R62's,R62a's and R146's"
{Correction "and R142's"
They're getting all R62 and As and that's it.
"6:40% Redbirds,Rest R62a's and R142s(By the way,R142's are onlytest trains)suppose to gert R142's(might give it's R62's to the 7)"
??? This makes no sense, R142s are not test trains they are running in service as R142As on the 6 and are meant to stay there past redbird era. They will get R142As not R142s. R142s for 2 and 3, R142As for 6.
"7:100% Redbirds(These numbers are extremely sad)Suppose to get R62's from 6"
Among other lines.
"9:No Redbirds.Never seen in 9 service."
That's correct as far as I know.
<<"5:99% Redbirds Suppose to get R62's,R62a's and R146's"
{Correction "and R142's"
They're getting all R62 and As and that's it>>
Where are the R62's and A's supposed to be coming from?
Also, if they completely redid the East 180th Service barn to service R142's, and the fact that the neighboring Unionport Yard stores the #5 trains, wouldn't it seem likely that #5 would get at least some R142's? Are there really enough R62's from the other lines to repalce all the redbirds on the 5?
"Where are the R62's and A's supposed to be coming from?"
The 3 and 6 lines I assume which will have many to spare since both of these lines will be all R142/As.
"Also, if they completely redid the East 180th Service barn to service R142's, and the fact that the neighboring Unionport Yard stores the #5 trains, wouldn't it seem likely that #5 would get at least some R142's? Are there really enough R62's from the other lines to repalce all the redbirds on the 5?"
Who knows? Maybe the 5 will get an occasional R142 like what is happening today.
The (5) Line is going to be ALL R-142 Cars, the (4) Line will be left over R-142/R-142As after the (2), (3), (5), and (6) get there cars.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
1987 was the last year the 1 ran the birds. One 10 car test train of ECAM equipped mainline R36s, including 9542,9548 and others left the line around March or April. All previous carbon steel cars were retired a year earlier.
There is now a website for the Franklin Shuttle BVE route (and any more for the future)! Browse to r68a_5200.tripod.com, screenshots of the latest build of the Route, along with cab views of the R142A and soon to be in revenue service R143! It's quite intresting...
Clayton (posting for R68A 5200)
I'll be out of the country from August 3rd till Aug 21st. I won't be posting here nor updating the BVE site till I get back. Till then, BVE fans, go enjoy
r68a_5200.tripod.com
for some add-ons.
-Later!
I went on a ride on N1 from 9th Ave Lower Level to the SBK Scrap yard at 38th St and 1st Ave yesterday. We went on the street trackage across 2nd and 1st avenue to get there. Once we got to the yard the hand thrown switches were thrown and 3 scrap ready flatcars were unloaded. Of course I took pictures.
Check them out at my website The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
One more thing...
I have pictures of the collector (Money Train) too...
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Nice collection of photos ... enjoyed them very much, thanks for sharing !
Mr t__:^)
One thing you should have gotten were photos from outside the train as it was crossing the streets. Those shots are real dramatic when you see cars in Brooklyn waiting for a 50-ton diesel to cross.
Unfortunately they were very paranoid about letting me off the loco.
-Harry
Okay where are her ditch-lighting??
That is an FRA mandate now, but then non of these pictures get a clear front shot. I'll have to inspect on 8/26!!
Okay where are her ditch-lighting??
That is an FRA mandate now...
Last month the Cape May Seashore Lines M410 was slowing for every grade crossing. I asked the conductor whether the engineer was a wuss, and he said that by law a train without ditch lights had to slow to 20 mph got crossings. This implies that the FRA mandate doesn't ban operating without ditch lights.
Just in time for this morning's rush hour, the Chicago area was hit by a massive storm that dumped almost four inches of rain on the city in less than two hours. The Deep Tunnel filled to capacity in less than an hour, forcing the Water Reclamation District to open the locks on the Chicago River and North Shore Channel to dump excess rain water into the lake. (Beaches closed until at least Saturday due to bacteria threat.) An estimated 1500 basements flooded, and power outages affecting up to 50,000 ComEd customers at one point. Among the storm's impact on local highways and transit systems:
The Edens Expressway was blocked in several places by high water. At the Pratt Avenue underpass, the water was 6-8 feet deep and had totally submerged several cars. Witnesses say the water rose to that height in a matter of minutes once the storm drains had backed up. Cars had no way to escape due to heavy traffic.
The Kennedy Expressway was closed at Hubbard's Cave due to high water. The Dan Ryan was shut down at 87th street due to flooding. Lake Shore Drive was closed around 53rd, also due to flooding. The Eisenhower Expressway had rising water in some parts that was powerful enough to lift off manhole covers in the left lane, but the highway was still passable. The Stevenson, the Skyway, and most of the tollways were not severely affected.
Most city streets were blocked with floodwaters at locations where the streets pass under railroad viaducts, sometimes with up to 4 feet of standing water.
Metra Electric and South Shore trains disrupted by downed catenary lines. Disruptions also on Metra Southwest Service line.
Yellow Line (Skokie Swift) train derailed due to debris on tracks from nearby runoff. Trains replaced by shuttle busses all day.
Purple Line (Evanston) trains disrupted by lightning strike to power substation. Trains replaced by shuttle busses through early afternoon.
Red and Blue Lines (State and Dearborn Subways) unable to enter subway portions for several hours due to flooding in tunnels. Trains replaced by shuttle busses.
Red Line (Dan Ryan branch) disrupted at 87th Street due to expressway flooding. Trains replaced by shuttle busses.
CTA express busses on Lake Shore Drive diverted to local streets due to flooding. Lawrence and Montrose underpasses flooded.
A severe accident at Madison and Des Plaines this afternoon (not weather-related) involves a CTA bus and five cars. Several injuries reported.
As of this writing, though, most of the water has receeded and the CTA and expressways are returning to normal.
Chicago Tribune Article
WHAT A MESS!!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wow, I hope that's not the sort of stuff we'll have to deal with regularly if the scientists are right and the sea level starts rising from climate change....
We would probably just dig another canal and send all the water to where New York used to be. Besides, with both New York and Los Angeles submerged by global warming, Chicago would then become the primary city of the US, like Paris is to France. The only downside is that all the people from Florida would move back here (since Florida would be underwater and we would now have Florida's weather). Chicago would become a huge Miami on steroids. [shudder]
Too bad we didn't have any redbirds on hand today to send down into the subways to help them learn to swim. :-)
BTW, I rode the Red Line subway back home this evening from a meeting downtown, and everything seems back to normal.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Heheh, I was actually talking from a New Yorker's point of view, thanks for the idea about dumping your excess water on us :)
Going to college up in Binghamton (only 2 years left *sob*) inspired me with the ultimate solution to NYC's potential global warming problem. Buy up enough land upstate near Binghamton (lots of empty land), and just move the entire city up there, piece by piece,and replicate every street, park, and highway so all the ex-New Yorkers will feel at home. we could call it "New New York" or "Upstate New York City"....It would also revitalize the (nonexistant) economy up there in the "Southern Tier", which is based almost exclusively on the underage drinking of SUNY students and the taxis we take back to campus. :)
"Water is very, very dangerous. Water is. I mean, water is very dangerous. I mean, people don't realize that it's just like heat. People realize how heat is dangerous. Same thing with water."
-- Mayor Richard Daley, speaking at a City Hall news conference Thursday
Thanks for such inspired leadership, Rich. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is getting to be a regular mid-summer occurance - either floods or extreme heat waves. I vacation there every early-July, and get out just in time. Must be the global warming.
Yet, Another Track Bed Photo by Me!
Just above Bedford Park Boulevard Station!
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
There, much better...
Sorry, Trevor... I couldn't resist. :-)
Great photos!
-- David
Chicago, IL
That is the BEST!
-Hank
I assume judging by the apartment building in the background, the reef will be located in the lost city of Atlantis...
I assume judging by the apartment building in the background, the reef will be located in the lost city of Atlantis...
But isn't it lost?
Oh, you're askin' for it now!
The hardcore redbird worshippers are gonna CRUCIFY you!
But it's still funny as hell!!! (and I'm a redbird fan too!)
LOL David my friend !
Mr t__|:-0)
Great photo. If an R142 train had been in that photo, it would look more clearer and brighter.
The T/A will have to remove the oils and the parts of the electric motor in the undercarriage before putting them down in the Atlantic. (They're also removing doors, windows, rollsigns, and also all electrical lighting for further use)
: )
Railfan Pete.
Lookie here - Metro Transit Atlantis finally got its rolling stock!!
Fabulous!
(The original pic was great, too)
--Mark
Hey nice artwork! Why not you create a website of photo art? But anyway IT'S FUNNY!
Kind of gives a whole new meaning to One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish.:-)
wonderful pollute the ocean with asbestos ! glad i dont live in your world !!
this is for the 2 posters ahead of this post !...... he - he - he !!
With my apartment building in the background.
Peace,
ANDEE
With my apartment building in the background. REALLY that is where I live
Peace,
ANDEE
And I'm sure someone lives in that Redbird in the foreground, too.
HAHAHA
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, now it's time for you to evolve into a merman like the people of the lost city of Atlanta.
I HATE OLD TRAINS!!!
excuse me a question here please ! did you try to hold your camera level when you took your photo ??
also what photo shop program did you use ?? adobe? mgi? had to be a picture over a picture program etc..
oh yes ! other than that the photo was clear what type of film did you use & or was this a digital shot ??
the r-142 underwater shot i have was INSIDE the new junker while it was under water & had more imagination !!
now thats a real ...... LOL !!!
The Camera was level, the train was leaning into the turn at the time! NO PHOTO SHOP, NO COLOR CORRETION, THAT IS STRAIGHT FROM THE DIGITAL!
I have a $700 Digital SLR Type Camera, so I get them professional looking joints straight out the cam without and alterations!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
wonderful ! your digital camera costs almost twice as much as mine does SONY DSCS30 & $ 300.oo
( discontinued ) replaced by dsps30 same price $ 300.oo !! ... lol !! oh well it does take nice pics !!
Do they sell a $700 SLR digicam? I work with a Canon D30 (a #2500 3.5Megapixel digital SLR) at work and THAT takes GREAT photos. Unfortunately, I don't own it. I use a Sony DSC-S50 similar salaam's (but the better version). Canon will come out with a new digital SLR in Q4 called the D60 (I think) it will be 6 Megapixel and it will cost $6000. My employer will buy it when it comes out. That means I get to use it! He will also get the IBM 1GB microdrive for the camera.
-Dan
Do they sell a $700 SLR digicam? I work with a Canon D30 (a #2500 3.5Megapixel digital SLR) at work and THAT takes GREAT photos.
I just bought a new Cannon Powershot G1 a couple of weeks ago and, once the air clears up a little bit, I'll be out roaming the system with it. So far I've found it takes images that easily rival my Nikon FM2 SLR.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
<<< Yet, Another Track Bed Photo by Me! >>>
Were you actually standing on the track bed to get that shot?
Standing right on it!
Trevor Logan
Mr Logan,
Since you took this photo from a non-public, track area, I have a question for you, Are you a TA or MTA employee?
Are you who you say you are?
YES I work for the IG......And you are?
Im wondering...... alot of folks say things on this board,that are not true, i just wanted to know. Thanks. ILL leT Trevor know that YOU are around.
If you at least want to talk to him Visit his website.
will he get fined? Or somthing else if he is not a TA or MTA employee?
Dear Mr. IG:
I am a NJT Employee!!!!!!!
Secondly (Explaining the photo), If anyone who works for the TA/MTA or is even a railbuff, knows that there is one hella lead off from the rear end of the southbound platform at Bedford Park Boulevard with a set of steps. I set myself of the ground, laying on my stomach, positioned the camera as such, and zoomed in to get the effect you see in the photo. So technically, I was in the public area with my arm and camera off the platform stairs.
So if ya'll want to send my arm & camera a ticket????? But it's just not worth it for a "photo."
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Fuck IT, I admit, I was on the tracks, but just off the platform. I DID IT, I DID IT!!!!!!
I just realized it's uselss for me to lie about it to save my ass, I admit it! It was for the art and was WELL WORTH IT! and if I get a summons for it, so be it!!!!
I'd rather be a man and admit it, than lie!!!!!!!!
So now What..............
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Ok Mr. Logan. Since you have admitted violating NYS Penal code 14.379248610439247, you will receive a summons and the fine will be $100.
Now Mr. Logan, can you please give me your address so that I can mail the summons to you?
I thought he was going to jail!
See- typical MTA - Inspector General should be doing something more useful -
Like Inspecting/Examining new alternatives/routes for SI Express Bus commuters. - AND INVESTIGATING THE CROOKED ATLANTIC EXPRESS DEAL which caused Academy to pull out.
I'll give it to you on his behalf
123 Fake Street
Springfield, US
Open the closet, you'll find some fireworks at the top shelf for your pleasure and enjoyment:-)
the picture was very nice !! leave this man alone !!
What about Jerk?
I went today to my alma mater in the Bronx, Lehman College, to pickup a transcript.
Afterward, I took a look in the yard to see what was around.
I saw 3 trainsets of Redbirds, including a bunch of Worlds Fair cars.
The markings were either 5 or 6.
1)Are these working units, or are they being readied for Scrap?
2)All the way in the back of the yard is a R-62, which looks to have been in a pretty bad accident, as the middle is bashed in. Anybody know the background on this one? Could not see the number of this unit.
I'm not sure about the redbirds, but the R-62 is from the Union Square Wreck.
If I may borrow a line from a popular cyber-game "You don't know Jack" about the R-62, either. The Union Square wreck cars are long gone. The car that is there is car #1369 from a fender-bender at Tremont Ave.
Wasn't that right around the time of the Subway Series last year? That's what I thought the train was, but a post here not too long ago stated it as being from the 14 St. wreck. Sorry for the misinformation!
HERE'S a link to one of the Union Square wreck cars leaving Concourse Yard for the final time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just above 238th Street-Neried Station!
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
COOL! What did you use to take that photo?
the most honerable digital camera
I may be out there Monday. Are all those partitions removed along the White Plains Road line north of Bronx Park East yet?
--Mark
They're gone up to Allerton. From Burke on up, they're still there, although I think they're rmoving them there too. That may be why today I had to take an uptown 2 train to Gun Hill to get downtown 2 service.
I LOVE NEW TRAINS!!!
Trevor, taking photos for your new web site ????
And not a rubber tire in site !!!!
Enjoyed the photo ....
Mr t__:^)
In a speech given by Peter Vallone recently, he mentions stops on the Metro North, underground, in Manhattan.
Please provide me with any history - I never knew there was a stop before 125th street prior to this article!
In a speech given by Peter Vallone recently, he mentions stops on the Metro North, underground, in Manhattan.
Please provide me with any history - I never knew there was a stop before 125th street prior to this article!
There were underground stops at 59th, 72nd and 86th streets. The platform at 59th is easy to see from Metro North trains and is today is marked as an emergency exit. The other two are much harder to see, unless you're at the railfan window.
All three have been closed for decades.
In a speech given by Peter Vallone recently, he mentions stops on the Metro North, underground, in Manhattan.
Please provide me with any history - I never knew there was a stop before 125th street prior to this article!
There were underground stops at 59th, 72nd and 86th streets. The platform at 59th is easy to see from Metro North trains and is today is marked as an emergency exit. The other two are much harder to see, unless you're at the railfan window.
All three have been closed for decades.
Addendum: there also was another station south of 125th, but not undergound. It was on the elevated portion between 125th and the portal. IIRC, it was around 110th Street, and like the underground ones is long gone.
Actually, the underground stations are still there, but they're very very short. They were closed around 1900, I think. Maybe a bit earlier/later.
Opening them up now, woud be stupid and pointless, for a variety of reasons. It'd block up the tunnels like crazy, There's tons 'o diesel smoke in there from the FL-9s and GE units, and there's no way the conductor could get your ticket in time. Not to mention, they're all roughly 1 car length long, and extnding them and bringimng them to modern standards would be hopelessly expensie.
I don't get why Vallone talks about them, because opening them is a hopeless cause.
[I don't get why Vallone talks about them, because opening them is a hopeless cause.]
I think they could be reopened -- or opened, really, since they'd pretty much have to be built from scratch. But it would require some major (and I think long overdue) rethinking of service patterns.
It may not be necessary to open all three. Perhaps 86th Street is the only one that would really be useful.
[Perhaps 86th Street is the only one that would really be useful. ]
I don't think so, IMO the only useful one would be 59th, could relieve some crowds on Lex.
Arti
If only there were enough capacity to dedicate the outer two tracks on this line to rapid transit service...if nothing else you'd have some extra east side capacity to relieve the Lex.
Could become the Park Ave. local in the Bronx being what the 3rd ave. el had once been,, maybe a connection to ex New York, Westchester and Boston track from 133 st to E.180 and on to Dyre.
Oh well, is my first cup of coffee finally waking me up?
{It may not be necessary to open all three. Perhaps 86th Street is the only one that would really be useful.}
I think that's probably true as things now stand -- or maybe 86th and 72nd, if there's sufficient demand. But it really depends on what you do with the service. I think ideally you'd have enhanced service from the three Bronx RR branches down the outside tracks to the Broadway line to Lower Manhattan, with links to the Lex for local travel. Sort of a combo commuter/subway superexpress service (with different cars/vehicles for the two types of service).
Opening the stops would slow down the trains from Westchester at rush hours, and perhaps reduce the capacity, so I don't think it's a go. Unless you put in the LIRR to GCT, then diverted enough MetroNorth trains to Penn to reduce through traffic on the local tracks.
I agree with the sentiments expressed in your post completely.
In sum, I argue that commuter rail is a poor substitute for rapid transit. Vallone's decision to use the Park Avenue tunnels as a second-rate stand in for a 2nd Avenue subway is a very poor one for the following reasons:
1) NIMBY$:
It is fairly safe to say that you have a very influential grouping of people living along Park Avenue. Park Avenue is almost exclusively residential from 59th Street north, and there are some residences below 59th Street. None of these people are going to take to kindly to station stops interrupting their vast verdant avenue.
2) Expensive and difficult construction will required to upgrade station stops:
From my not-so-accurate personal measurements, Park Avenue is 115 feet wide in the region around 96th Street. The Avenue more or less retains a constant width. The Park Avenue tunnels, from an even less accurate measurement, are about 65 feet wide. The portal seems to be a little narrower, and the outside tracks diverge once in the tunnel, presumably to accommodate the thicker support walls.
This leaves a maximum of 50 feet for side platforms, with 25 feet on either side. While there is some existing station structure present, from what I gather, it is hopelessly undersized, and would require expansion. Park Avenue is lined with a lot of pre-war construction. Even excavating down to platform level 25 feet from the building face would require a massive underpinning effort.
You may be able to get 10 or 15 feet wide platforms on either side. I am not sure if this is ADA compliant. If you want center island platforms for all four tracks, there is no way there would be enough room.
You basically don't have much room for platforms before you wind up in someone's basement. The City has really moved away from shoehorning construction, possibly in light of ADA and other safety regulations. Construction may simply not be practical. In other words, it would cost even more than battling the NIMBY$.
3) Ridership data:
Every ridership study posted by the MTA has clearly indicated that the East Side demand for additional north-south transit lies east of the Lexington Avenue line. Why spend all this money to put additional transit where there is less demand for it? I could understand the argument for a 1st-Avenue subway, if the piers for the 59th Street Bridge weren't in the way.
4) Operational and scheduling:
Operational and scheduling difficulties with inbound and outbound trains are bound to increase with added station stops between 125th Street and GCT. That is a distance of only about 4 miles, with some stations being under a mile apart. From what I gather, commuter rail trains, unlike rapid-transit subway cars, do not accelerate and decelerate as easily or as rapidly. The dwell time is longer as well.
5) Inconvenience to the majority of other users:
The majority of riders travelling on MetroNorth are still medium to long distance. Why present an inconvenience to the suburban commuters who now have to put up with an extra 5-10 minutes every trip while their train makes three to four extra stops.
In conclusion, I passionately, yet respectfully, disagree with Vallone's poorly conceptualized idea. If money is wasted on a feasibility study, the answer will probably come back that adding station stops along Park Avenue would be cost prohibitive anyway.
MATT-2AV
The following is from Brennan's page of abandoned stations concerning the 86th St. station,
"Best view: From the end door window of any passing Metro North train. Also see entrances at street level in Park Avenue mall."
Does anyone know where the remnants of these street entrances are located on the mall? I have spent a lot of time in that neighborhood, and nothing ever jumped out to me as being that.
Dave, it's been a few years since I've been out there, but as of about 1997 there were either subway-type emergency exit panels in the mall shrubbery or slightly raised gratings that covered a set of steps, depending on the station. I only recall seeing one at each location, except 59th Street, which had two, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi Dave ---
Thread back to my respone to Steve Boatti's post--both on Fri. Aug. 3rd - I was down inside the 86th Street MNRR station - there is one stairway on the north side of 86th Street just off the pedestrian island-sidewalk for persons crossing E86th Street along the westbound roadway..it is marked with one (maybe two) railings and is fenced off from the shrubbery (it is situated in a
cul-de-sac at the edge of the shrubbery) and is quite visible. Down the stairs to a landing - about 6+ steps down - is a gate. There was a trap door at sidewalk level at the top of the stairs - but sometimes that is in up (open) position but the gate at the landing is closed. You must duck your head to get thru the "doorway" portal as it is only 5' or so high...definitely an MNRR employee entryway and never a passenger entryway. It is a narrow stairway about 30 to 33" wide from side walls. There appeared to be a utility building on the southbound platform near the north end of the platform--cannot remember if it was an electrical related building or maintenance - also
the platforms slightly taper at both ends as the tunnel was built wider and the outer local tracks curve outward from the two center tracks to make room for the short (about 200 feet appx.long) island platforms. My last visit was in the mid 1980's and the street level appearance could have been
changed at sidewalk level since then - I would
doubt that as it was in excellent condition and served it purpose. After the gate (thru the "doorway") a set of steel steps turned right at a steel landing, and continued down against the partition wall at the east (back)edge of the platform (walling off the adjacent S/B express track from the platform) to the high-level platform.
Incandecent lamps with round dish-type reflectors
hung from piping from the tunnel ceiling - definitely a dark, dank and sinister lighting effect
compared to normal incandescent lighting standards
of even the early days of the "subway" stations--but sufficient. My previous post described more. It appears this service stairway's initial descent from the sidewalk is directly over the westerly edge of the southbound center express track in the arch of its tunnel roof. Also, it was evening on my escorted trip there so that made things darker down below - no daylight coming from the esplanade planter air grates!! I doubt you would be able to get personal
access to any station openings unless workmen were
down below and left the gates /traps above open - and then you would have some explaining to do if you were discovered...a dangerous situation at best.
Best to videotape the stations from a N/B & S/B MNRR
commuter train via the storm door window!! Then replay at Slo-motion to better visualize. The tunnel lighting is better (flourecent) than 15 years ago!
Hope this post shed some "light" on your question.
Regards - Joe
Based on their appearance, it's hard to believe these were ever in revenue service. They are small and look like emergency exits. Were they ever in actual use?
To Steve Boatti;
The stations held about 4 small railroad rapid transit style open platform coaches excluding the steam engine. They were built when the railroad was a partially open cut and originally had high level platforms. The coaches were in or around 50+ feet in length - rear platform of last car and front platform of first car behind tender were out of platform limits. I was down in the 86th Street
station back in the mid 1980's with a railroad cop friend (I am an former-P.O.) and we entered thru a
non-public service stairway in the planter island sidewalk on Park Ave. via a steel sidewalk-level
trap door. This station had high level platforms
serving only the local tracks - the express track sides of platforms have a concrete wall with small
half-moon arches at the 6' high (appx.) level for
I presume, air-pressure flow and ventilation. The
station columns were round with semi-ornate flare-
work at tops, and footings at the base - at track level, similar to IRT round columns on the old 4th
Avenue 1904 East Side Route (and probably same as on
upper Broadway IRT 1904 route). Small parts of the high level platforms had been removed on my visit.
I am not sure if the high level platforms were built
when the tunnels were built - or added later.However
it would make sense to me that they were built WITH
the tunnel program as high level for faster passenger loading, as well as passenger safety in the tunnel confines. Commuter Rapid Transit Passenger train service
stopped on these stations after about 1904. (You should note that 125th street and 138th Streets were low level platforms.) The stations had, above & across the tracks, stone station houses in the Park Avenue Safety Island, which was twice as wide when Park Avenue was built "new" as a boulevard of the wealthy in concert with the Park Avenue Tunnel improvements, back in the early part of the 1900's. These station houses were similar in function and access as the ones built on the Bronx Park Avenue open cut such as at Tremont Avenue, etc, etc. These station houses were removed in the period between 1910 and 1915 and Park Avenue was again re-built in the 1920's with a narrower vent-openings in the safety island with pedestrian walkways and planters with flowers and shrubs--but the island still remained wider than we presently see today. The
"original" islands had larger "open" areas with fencing surrounding the open areas in the open-beam style tunnel below Murray Hill (70th St appx.) for ventilation and light for the tunnels (in daylight at least) and some walkways similar to the ones over the IRT under upper Broadway. The stone circular-roofed tunnel north of there to 96th Street (the original end of the stone tunnel) had large
rectangular gratings and small walkways parallel to Park Avenue roadways - with safety fencing along the curb lines. The smaller islands these days have small square and circular grated vents and of
course, no pedestrian walkways running thru them.
These islands were again rebuilt in the 1940's to make Park Avenue one lane wider on each side, and had new flowers and shrubs planted, and modern "Triboro Bridge" type streetlights along the avenue!!
This also covered over most of the "open" tunnel
construction below Murray Hill and required smaller vents in the stone tunnel sections north of Murray Hill...making the tunnels considerably darker even with those (pre-flourescent lamp era) incandescent
bulb tunnel lamps.
The 110th street station was high level platformed- the platforms were built over and out-rigged beyond the edge of the stone viaduct walls, today the portals to the stairways being filled in with brick/stone in the cross-street sidewalk underpasses. The stairways to the street portals
ran down the sides of the stone walls. Some faint
remnants of the attachments and construction are still evident.
Somewhere in my photo archives I have a few rare
views of the old station houses spanning the tracks
but the views are from a few blocks away and other than seeing the appearance of the station house(s)
they lack the advantage of close up details. I also found a view of the 110th street station from about 1880.
Note: The original Harlem open cut (similar to the one in the Bronx today up to Fordham Road) also
had high level platforms at 125h Street PRIOR to that cut being filled in and replaced by the
steel elevated structure just above 110th street.
The elevated (new) 125th street station received LOW
level platforms which like all other low level
platforms north of the Harlem River, were later made high-level for the Metro-North and Connecticut-DOT M-type commuter cars!
Hope this answers your post question!!
Thanks for that good info!
FWIW, the center islands on Broadway don't have walkways. They're even narrower than the current ones on Park.
TO David Greenberger; (FWIW)
David -to get YOUR facts straight - I am now looking
at TWO 8 x 10 B&W photos of Broadway taken in 1900
ALSO - ONE 8x10 B&W Photo on Broadway taken 1895
AND - ONE 4 1/2 x 4 B&W photo on Broadway 8/22/1900
DESCRIPTIONS PER GROUPING posted above------
(a) Photo looking NORTH along center island at corner of 73rd Street. Scene shows a walkway
running as far north as can be seen ( a few blocks)
along centerline of walkway appx. 8 feet wide with
appx. 8' grass planters and elm trees lining both sides of walkway. Just outside each grass planter strip are street railway (conduit) tracks in what today would be the innermost lanes. At end of the central walkway at the Broadway corner of/
at 73rd St. is a crosswalk for pedestrians crossing the avenue and the island.
(b) Photo looking NORTH along center islamd at corner of 72nd Street (wide crosstown street) with same details as photo (a) above - but with a safety
railing across end of walkway as streetcar tracks
(shown at left of walkway) switch off Broadway and curve eastbound in front of end of safety island.
(c) Looking south along northbound east-curb lane near 114th Street showing a N/B horse car running on track alongside the center safety island and showing the dual grass & elm tree planters on each side of the appx. 8' wide center walkway with pedestrians
on this near mid-block part of central north-south
island walkway.
(d) Loking southwesterly along northbound inner
roadway (and streetcar track) across center island
and its n/s walkway with southbound TAR's railway
conduit-powered car passing alongside the west edge
of walkway - showing the grass planters and elm trees paralleling both sides of central walkway.
NOTE: There appear to be NO iron railings either paralleling the walkway sides NOR the curb edges of the island planter strips each side of walkway.
An obvious intelligent person such as yourself should have taken into account that my posting re: the Park Avenue "islands" and their original walkways (which I also have photos of in the early 1900 period of the century) related to the islands of Park AND BROADWAY "BEFORE" both of our birth years-and what is seen presently along both avenues
today. Photographs I have of Broadway in the early 1920's show the walkways were redesigned with FULL
planters from curb to curb and NO walkways - as you refer (FWIW) to in your response post to me. The
obvious tone of my text was describing the walkways
circa 1900 thru 1910 when the IRT subway and Park
Avenue Tunnel Improvements were effected - purely to
word-describe the then-physical layouts. BTW - the original Broadway (with walkways) island pre- 1920's era appear to be the same width appx. as the post
(and present) Broadway safety islands - the former
central walkways gave way to planters to connect with the original ones on each side. They obviously could not have been widened in the 1920's period due to the presence of the streetcar tracks immediately beside them in the inner-lane roadway - so their
relative widths remain the same from the late 1800's to present day. Hope this little educatory post further inform you...but thanks much for your imput and review of my Park Ave. post. !! Regards - Joe
My apologies. I thought you were comparing the old Park Avenue to the current Broadway.
TO DAVE (Greenberger:)
Thanks, Dave - and -- the research I had to do on my end was interesting - havent looked at those pics in many years - and others on Broadway AND Park in the after-1920's island-reconstructions - also somewhat
re-enlightening to me too!! Anyway, as long as you and others on this site got some valid, interesting info and imput from me...that is what the enjoyment on my end is - and Daves P's great subtalk-site is really about !!
Regards - Joe
Go to 86th and Lex. In the Park ave median, there is evidence of an old exit (on the north side of 86th), IIRC.
today on the Franklin Shuttle around 530pm I saw 2919 North Motor coupled to 2923 SOuth Motor. The SOuth car had normal roll signs whuile the North car had the flat,non adjustable signs.
Is this a permanent odd couple or a temporary setup.
The R-68s assigned to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (2916-2924) are single units. They were never converted to 4-car sets. Any car in the group can run with any other car in the group.
David
Oh no a single Hippo got loose, look out World she loose in the system somewhere.
BTW my grandson loves them off-hours, a rolling jungle jims with hurdles (seats). I have this fond memory of him holding onto the bar of a R-62. He walked up the wall to try and see out the front door. Later he played peek-a-boo with the T/O (car was stopped in a station for a signal) he leaned out the door & T/O leaned out his window.
Mr t__:^)
I thought you meant heypaul and Qtraindash7 were hanging out riding the line together....;-)
I thought Heypaul only rides the Independent Line---also BMTman you should be on the Franklin Shuttle so you can get your Edward Luciano("look ma, no hands") imitation perfected for 9/28 & 9/29 at Shoreline.
Only if I have fellow my Brighton Beach Brethren (and Erasmus Alumni) -- Paul Matus and Bill Newkirk -- along for the ride...;-D
BMTman
1) Why do they need windshield wipers on E trains?
2) Wouldn't it be better if subway car doors opened up instead of side to side. Wouldn't there be less chance of someone being caught in the doors. Besides the train dispatcher already tells the conductor to open up or to close down
3) Why not run trains of 1/2 IRT cars and 1/2 BMT cars. This way no matter where the train was, some of the cars would fit in the station. Wouldn't this make sense. We could run #7 trains down to Stillwell Avenue.
4) Why not put video cameras in the front of the train and have monitors in each car. This way we could have transverse cabs and the railfans could still see out front.
5) Do you think it would be a good idea for the TA to open a driving school for train operators - sort of like drivers ed. We could charge $25 a lesson and open it to the public?
6) What do you think of literacy tests?
Look I'm not trying to start a fued IIGHT.So her:
1.The same reason windshield wipers are needed on all trains.
2.No.Bad subway architecture.
3.BMT trains are too wide for IRT Tunnel and IRT trains are to narrow for BMT tunnels.
4.Too expensive for the MTA
5.Maybe it is a good Idea
6.Just another way to call someone dumb.
I have 1 question for you.Are you going to put up any more questionares or are you done?
#3
IRT Trains are too narrow for BMT tunnels?
- Type too fast, and you play right into his hand...
Hehe. Nice one Henry.
Railfan Pete.
1.- Just in case the 53rd St Tube springs a leak.
2. Personally, I've always liked this idea myself.
3. Don't we already run 7 trains to Coney Island? Actually, I've had this one put to me by a couple of TSSs, only they wanted to see if we knew car classes from the car numbers.
4. I like it. Now we can PROVE that we're being delayed by a red signal.
5. - Some rail museum in California does this with a steam loco, but I think for much more than $25 a head.
6.- I counted 8 mistakes in your post. Do you want more of an answer?
5. - Some rail museum in California does this with a steam loco, but I think for much more than $25 a head.
Also Belfast & Moosehead Lake in Maine (with a Swedish steam engine) and, at least at one time, the Valley Railroad in Essex, Connecticut - and perhaps others as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL!!
You know, I think you hit on something there - the MTA should have a web-cam mounted on trains goind dosin each line - and maybe charge people like 25 cents to view the live video stream - they could make enough to finish 2nd av!
well... maybe not... but it'd be worth a shot...
2) Alright, picture this. The train is crowded, people are trying to squeeze into the car, suddenly the conductor decides enough is enough, and the door comes up out of the floor to close, impaling 3 people in various cars in their crotch area.
Or better yet, the doors close downwards from the top of the frame, and a baby carraige is in the doorway, baby dies, MTA gets sued, no more 2nd avenue line for 30 more years thanks to lack of funds.
3) Better yet, why not just run cars on their tracks as normal, but in 1-2 car sets. That way 3 or 4 of these trains can fit into one station at a time (signaling would have to be re-done or removed in stations), but maybe the train at the front takes a few people and moves on, the one behind it goes up to the front of the station and takes some and then moves out, and so on.
Alright, or better yet, for rush hour fun, use regular size trains and instead of having it come to a stop, let it roll thru the station with doors open, so people just jump on and off. Ignore the fact that many cars will be in the tunnel at any given time, make people sign waivers upon entry (if people get injured, which they WILL, no damn lawsuits) and then we don't need cops fining people for holding open doors. "You wanna put your hand through that door, go right ahead buddy...."
no more 2nd avenue line for 30 more years thanks to lack of funds.
You mean it'll be built sooner than otherwise?
THIS IS ESPECIALLY FOR TRAIN DUDE
2) Alright, picture this. The train is crowded, people are trying to squeeze into the car, suddenly the conductor decides enough is enough, and the door comes up out of the floor to close, impaling 3 people in various cars in their crotch area.
Or better yet, the doors close downwards from the top of the frame, and a baby carraige is in the doorway, baby dies, MTA gets sued, no more 2nd avenue line for 30 more years thanks to lack of funds.
What in the world are you stating? PICTURE THIS: Deciding on the design of the car-types, WHAT kind of train closes doors coming from the FLOOR or the CEILING of the train?! You just aren't thinking about the logic. IF the doors closed from the ceiling, the ceiling of the subway tubes and stations JUST WON'T ALLOW IT.
3) Better yet, why not just run cars on their tracks as normal, but in 1-2 car sets. That way 3 or 4 of these trains can fit into one station at a time (signaling would have to be re-done or removed in stations), but maybe the train at the front takes a few people and moves on, the one behind it goes up to the front of the station and takes some and then moves out, and so on.
The REASON BEING is that the MTA CANNOT SCHEDULE 1-2 CAR SETS OF TRAINS TO BE SIMULTANEOUSLY PULLED INTO THE STATION. You really aren't using your head at all when you stated your opinion (facts) on your response to SubTalk. Imagine the T/A trying to fix ALL OF THE SUBWAY SYSTEM's SIGNALS! It is a LOT HARDER than you think. If you still aren't convinced, YOU TRY MODFIFYING THE SIGNALS ALL BY YOURSELF! THEN IF YOU CAN'T, JUST KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, THE T/A IS TOILING ALL THEY CAN TO PROVIDE OPTIMUM SERVICE FOR SORRY BUTTS LIKE YOU LEISURING AROUND THE SUBWAY. It IS more than just screwing in a screwdriver. You NEED COMPUTER AND YARD WORKING EXPERIENCE!
Alright, or better yet, for rush hour fun, use regular size trains and instead of having it come to a stop, let it roll thru the station with doors open, so people just jump on and off. Ignore the fact that many cars will be in the tunnel at any given time, make people sign waivers upon entry (if people get injured, which they WILL, no damn lawsuits) and then we don't need cops fining people for holding open doors. "You wanna put your hand through that door, go right ahead buddy...."
You CAN'T BOARD OR DISCHARGE PASSENGERS when the train is MOVING. That is a serious SAFETY HAZARD. You are talking about 30 to 40 tons of weight carrying you and if you decide to jump off, you might as well be paying your own hospital bill for a broken ankle or foot. Try it yourself. I know at a train festival where a person was trying to get off a moving NJT train. That was moving 3mph TOPS and we're talking about 52 tons of solid STEEL and ALUMINUM, boy that person stumbled on the rocks when he tried to jump off AT THAT SPEED!. (Nothing was broken).
ALSO, TIME WON'T ALLOW IT. IF A STATION IS FILLED WITH 500 RUSH HOUR PASSENGERS, the TIME that it will TAKE FOR THE TRAIN to MOVE THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE PLATFORM IS TOO SHORT. TRAINS MUST BE STOPPED TO SERVE PASSENGERS. JUST THINK ABOUT THE LOGIC!! FOR YOUR SAKE!!!
I know someone who placed a thick book (small one) between the doors of the R46 cars on the World Trade Ctr. bound E train at Jamaica Center. The doors couldn't close, so the conductor opened the doors and served that passenger.
OOH.Hoo hoo. Gotta watch out for those R142's and R142A's. When their doors close, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE TO FORCE THEM OPEN, because of the fact that they're ELECTRONICALLY OPERATED, NOT WITH LATCHES.
By the way, you don't get fined for holding open doors, unless if a MTA cop is standing right in front of you.
Railfan Pete.
Just to clarify, my entire response to #3 was a joke. The hint should've been when I suggested that platform full of people, and a subway train full of people can switch places while the train is moving.
Sorry for any inconvenience and increased blood pressure this might've caused.
So much for a joke... My Apologies for you are sincere and honest. Good luck.
Railfan Pete.
OOH.Hoo hoo. Gotta watch out for those R142's and R142A's. When their doors close, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE TO FORCE THEM OPEN, because of the fact that they're ELECTRONICALLY OPERATED, NOT WITH LATCHES.
Electronically operated? What does this have to do with anything? You can't force the doors open because of the mechanics of the door operator - it's a screw-type drive.
Alex, please do not try to confuse pete with facts. He's on the verge of an overload.
Hey moron, don't you know SARCASM when you see it? The entire post was PURPOSELY absurd.
BTW, if they wanted doors that could open upwards, they'd simply use roll-down doors. Ever see a mini-mall close up? Same thing.
-Hank
Well, as long as we're doing this - why not abolish the station platforms entirely, let the passengers step down on the tracks and just equip the trains with scoops on the front like the movie "Soylent Green?" Then they won't be delayed at stops at all ... they'd actually run ON TIME! :)
Soylent Green is....PEOPLE!
Peace,
ANDEE
What about the disabled? Oh no.
Hey, i really like #5.....i'd do it
Oddly enough, I took my college intern on a field trip about 3 weeks ago. She received some basic training and then took a shot at the R-46/R-44 simulator at the RTO training center. She didn't do too well as was to be expected but even she said that she would have paid to try it. Incidently, she did the E line from Parsons Archer to Continental Avenue.
Yeah, i tried to get some information from the MTA about the college intern program, but got no reply at all. I would have applied for it wholeheartedly.
Contact me via e-mail and I'll give you the info
You know, after reading all the well-informed posts from Railfan Pete and MrX2001, I'm actually looking forward to providing Salaam with proff.
-Hank
Hank, I really have to agree with you. Salaam is really looking more intelligent these days..
as i heard, coney island yard rebuilds constantly the trucks that you see on all the current models on the ind, irt and bmt. but since the irt and soon bmt gets new cars that uses different typ of trucks that coney island will not rebuild, who will rebuild them and if they are to be teken care of by another company, can they rebuild them or do they dispose them? why can't coney island rebuild them?
There are actually 2 truck shops, Coney island and 207th St. 207th St will obviously need to tool up to rebuild the newer trucks first. The transition should be a smooth one and with appropriate training, should not impact on service.
Of course there will be a large number of spare trucks around. While certain trucks are dedicated to certain fleets, many will be scrapped along with the cars that rode on them. Traction motors and shoe beams will be salvaged first.
1. Why dont they make a transfer between the Grand St Station and the Bowery Station? The (Former) B,D, and Q lines pass right underneath. Before the Manhattan Bridge flip. I used to take a B or D from W4 when the F never came and ride it to Grand (This I usually do at 3 or 4 in the morning going home from the clubs). I would walk out of the System and walk back in at Bowery and catch a J train.
2. What is that "Empty Door" you see when walking down the stairs of the Brooklynbound platform of the Bowery Station? The door is right in front of you but situated on a wall. Ive noticed that it looks like some kinda room up above the platform. And part of that same "room" there seems to be two very small walkways (JUST LOOK UP THEY ARE THERE!!!), It looks like some homeless person has his bed up there or something of the sort.
So if anyone can help me out :)
Anthony
Every time I look at a subway map from across the car, and look at the area of track in Bklyn from 36th St to Bay Pkwy, it looks like it's still Orange+Brown. Upon closer inspection, of cource, it's not.
Try it.
The illusion probably results from the type of lighting that is used in the car which may make the colors appear to be orange and brown instead of yellow and brown.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I visited Winslow Junction this morning.
My pix at Winslow Junction
I know the SNJ has been there for years, but what exactly are they doing? Have they run any trips?
They run trips every day. It's called freight and it makes them money.
SRNJ has two disconnected operations. In addition to their operations out of Winslow (including stone trains on NJT to Pleasantville), they have a presence in Salem where they run to Swedesboro at least twice a week (TTh) and do local switching in Salem every day except Sunday.
They ran a "trip" today from Mannington Mills in Salem, where they keep their power because of vandalism on their own accessible property, to the Anchor glass plant (Snapple bottles are made there) to retrieve an empty and again to deliver 3 loads (soda ash and limestone). Additional switching jobs involved too many loaded 100 ton hoppers for their GE 44-tonner to handle (wheel slippage), so their F7A was revved up. The F7A (painted O&W) is coupled to GP9 #100, but the Geep was not fired up; just used as a cab control car for switching in the direction that its cab was facing. Bill the engineer called it a "whisper cab". :)
I haven't looked at my pictures yet, but if I deem them worthy, I'll post them eventually. Eric the conductor was antsy about me wandering around taking pictures, so most of my time was spent in the engines.
I put my pics of the SRNJ Salem trip on Yahoo Photos. I don't know how to add text, so it's just captioned pics.
Salem, NJ, 8-3-01 Southern Railroad of NJ
Where in New Jersey is Winslow junction, and how does one get there?
The pictures were great, and I would like to get a few of my own.
Its 3 miles west of Hammonton on the NJT Atlantic City line. The Pennsy, Reading and Jersey Central all came together there.
You may email me for driving directions.
This is also where the Blue Comet left the CNJ Southern Division on its way to Atlantic City.
You get on Rt. 73 East (from NJTP or I-295). You'll pass under a RR bridge, over Rt. 30, the road will loose its median and you'll pass under another RR bridge. After that you'll look for a fire tower and a big island median thing w/ a westbound only traffic light. You get off there (left) and drive that that road past 2(or 1) traffic lights. You'll see a RR grade crossing. Make a LEFT as soon as you cross over the tracks. You can't miss it. Park between the black RR bridge and the white RR bridge on the big gravel area to the right of the road.
You'll see a RR grade crossing. Make a LEFT as soon as you cross over the tracks.
That's the SECOND GRADE CROSSING. The first is an industrial siding a couple blocks before the main line.
Not on the route I take. There is only one.
You say that three rail lines came together at that point - aside from the Atlantic City line and the freight line you photographed, what about the third one? Could there be a viable connection allowing service from say, Newark to Atlantic City without any need to go to Philadelphia? A crewman on the Atlantic City line once told me that after a fire on the North Jersey Coast line, service was cut back to Bayhead Junction from a location south of there, the name of which escapes me at present. Due to the problems with acquiring land for a ROW, the line cannot be extended any further from that point. If there is another route around that, what would be the holdup to establishing service - outside of the dreaded NIMBY?
The third line, now the SRNJ from Winslow Jct south, was the Jersey Central line from North Jersey to Bridgeton. Some of it is missing and/or paved over north of Winslow, but most of the ROW is still there.
The line diverged from the North Jersey Coast Line at Red Bank and went through Lakehurst.
The route is intact through to Lakehurst/Toms River (they just tore down the old signal bridge at Lakehurst). South of there the rails are in place, but the line is heavily overgrown. I mean we're talking trees. Some of the grade crossings have been paved over w/in the last 4 years and in some places the RoW is being erroded by water and/or ATV's. However the RoW is instact w/ all the bridges.
I've been away for a couple of weeks so this might have already been covered, but I managed to ride the Portland Streetcar a few times last week. I showed up to ride on opening day (7/20) if things were going well. Things weren't going so well - cars were often blocked by parked vehicles (Portland drivers haven't had to deal with streetcars for 51 years, outside of MAX, so they may have forgotten a few things?). All 5 cars on the property were in service but they ran packed all day. I waited about 20 minutes only to have 2 cars show up unboardable.
I took a short ride on 7/21. Still a bit crowded, still free. The big problem on 7/20 was attributed to not enough cars in service (all 5 were running - 2 more are coming but not until next year) - this meant 10 minute headways, not nearly enough service for the crowds - and equipment problems (crowded cars couldn't close doors or too many people standing on the bridge plate so it wouldn't extend or retract (the rear double-door has a bridge plate for wheelchairs)). Vehicles parked too far from curbs and blocking tracks were not mentioned as problems, although news media had reported this on 7/20. (Parking lanes are defined with edge stripes to remind drivers to get close to curbs, but truck mirrors could still be a problem.)
On 7/23, I returned. Service was supposed to start costing $1.20 outside of the fareless zone, but ticket machines on the cars were not operating, so unless one purchased a Tri-Met ticket from MAX machines or other vendors, no ticket. The machines only accept coins, a fact not advertised. Service was running on 'normal' schedules (15-minute headways) but still crowded. One thing I noticed was the slow speed of the service and the wait at turns protected by traffic signals - the cars must get their own signal to turn, since they often turn against traffic, but there seems to be no priority for the cars and they often had to wait for the signal at these locations.
For some reason, at the Portland State end, the line stub-ends into a single track, but boarding/alighting is not allowed at the 4th Ave end of the stub, even though the car waits here for a short layover to allow the operator to change ends. Riders can remain on the car, but the last stop before the stub is on 5th Ave, and the first stop afterward is on the private right-of-way thru Portland State at 6th Ave.
I rode again on 7/25 and noted the same problems. Car 001 had to stop extending the bridge plate since the crowd was too dense and the plate couldn't extend, so a handful of wheelchair patrons had to be passed up.
The Skoda cars are nice but noisy on the rails, especially on special work. The Vintage Trolley serves the line on weekends on 1-hour headways - I can only imagine what that must be like, given the small capacity of the VT's! 514 was at the Streetcar yard (off Northrup beneath I-405, at 16th Ave) when I rode, so I assume that's the car providing the service. Streetcar headways are 20 minutes on weekends, with Sunday service starting later than Saturdays.
The Streetcar is nice but it's no MAX, and it was getting more than its share of local lambasting given its not-very-ideal service to downtown Portland (5 blocks from the Transit Mall) and its $56 million price tag.
The puzzling part to me is its connection to MAX, which is at 10th & Morrison. Maybe the idea was to avoid facing-point turnouts, but the connection requires an awkward reverse move through the intersection (it comes off MAX's westbound track facing eastbound to the Streetcar's northbound track facing southbound).
Portland's MAX extension to Portland Airport is slated to open on 9/10. At that time, MAX will gain colors. The Airport service, which will terminate at the downtown loop/former end of the line at 12th Ave, will become the Red Line. The main line service (Gresham to Hillsboro) will become the Blue Line.
Several training runs were operating on the Airport extension during the last two weeks, mainly single-car low-floor units. At least six of the low-floors will get luggage racks on an experimental basis.
"Red Line", "Blue Line" ... where have I heard those terms before? Weren't they copyrighted by another transit property? So Portland is joining the major leagues; it's naming its rail lines after colors. How very original.
Sometimes I get the impression that transit organizations are run by apple-cheeked MBAs raised in automobile suburbs without any exposure to rail systems. They are hired straight out of college, totally bereft of original thought, and go to taxpaer-paid conferences and trade in-fashion inanities and manage to dupe an unsuspecting public.
Portland's a nice enough place, even though they hate Southern Californians. Here's an admittedly non-original thought: Name your rail lines after the places they go to. I know, dumb idea, totally out of fashion.
I was a little surprised myself that Portlanders gave in to the popular way of doing things. It seems fairly obvious enough to have the East-West Line, the Airport Line, the North Line (coming in '04), etc. What the colors will bring is beyond me. Of course, I had the same feeling when SEPTA tried to 'color' its lines in the mid-70's - only the out-of-towners ride the Blue, Orange and Green Lines, and I doubt if anyone even knows what the Red, Brown and Purple Lines are any more.
I'm posting this as a favor for my boss (we just finished mounting an exhibit by kids about the High Line at the Municipal Art Society at Madison and 51st--has some good pictures of the structure and the neighborhood around it, as well as the basic history of it--it's designed and put together by 12-16 year olds and it's short, but we did get to go up on it and get some pictures from it, so it might be worth a quick visit).
Anyhow, she told me that during renovations at the local stations on Broadway, they uncovered original tilework. Does anyone know what's going to happen to it? Will they re-cover it, restore it, or what?
Thanks
Seth
With the removal of the 1969-71 cinder block tiles, the original BMT tilework is to be restored in it's original form on all the stations along the Broadway local, with the possible exception of 49th St., which was redone in a different style around 1972-73.
Current policy is to restore/recreate original when renovation is done.
For Broadway manhattan the only station left is Rector and of course 49th.
Remaining refrigerator tile stations are the 4th ave Brooklyn Local Stops (77, Bay Ridge,53,45,25,Prospect,9th,Union.) I expect that whenever they are done(I dont have a timetable) the original will be restored. Already at one of them, there isd a hole int he new stuff and you can see the classic underneath. At the partt-time exits, the original is still in place.
Union Street has already been rehabilitated, and the "refrigerator tile" (tile in a refrigerator???) was retained, although somewhat modified.
David
Correct, they merely added the "flying people" plaques to the existing 70s tile, and re-did the trackside curtain walls. No traces of the original "U" mosaics can be seen, what a shame. I suggest removing the 70s tile behind the fare control area, like they have it at the other 4th Avenue local stops. At southbound 25th Street, there is a reproduction stretch of frieze with a new "25" plaque, near the fare control area. Looks pretty good.
wayne
Considering the condition of the wall tiles (old and faded - they
did not fare well over the years behind the refrigerator tiles) I think they will be covered over by similar new tiles. The mosaics will be restored or replaced as needed. Some will probably be removed (i.e. Astor Place sign at 8th St - it is covered up by tape at the moment) as they are no longer applicable. They will most likely wind up in the Museum's collection.
By the way, if you look at the Canal St station (N,R) everything there is "new" but was done in the style of the original - with embeleshments (the mosaic name tablets CANAL STREET are nothing like the originals which were like the ones in all the other BMT stations).
When was the Astor Place exit closed? Other than the taped-over signs, I don't think there's any evidence on the platform or on the street.
I really don't know but I would say at least in the 1960's when the then new tiles were put in place. It was probably a stair which was removed completely or an exit opening to a passage way which was covered over (I'll bet it led to the old John Wanamaker store).
Just as an aside - how many of you know that at 110th St on the 6 on the uptown platform there was an additional exit towards the north end? It was blocked off about 10 some odd years ago - all that remains is a door. That shows how well things can be hidden.
I'm impressed by how well the old IRT crossunder at Columbus Circle was hidden. It was open until 10-12 years ago. I don't even remember where the staircases were. Now the IND platforms double as IRT crossunders. (I still think it would make sense to open a section of the center platform as the designated crossunder.)
I know where the one on the SB platform is/was. But it has been a long time so I don't remember where it was on the NB - actually I think it came out at the foot of the stairs leading to the IND.
Speaking of hidden - the covered staircase to the underpass at the 42nd St Shuttle at Times Square is very easy to find (just look for the glass block circle skylights near track 1). But once they finish (if ever) the refurbishing of the TS complex who knows if we will ever see it again.
OK - I know someone is going to ask - Underpass at Times Square???. Way back in 1904 when the original line opened Times Square was a local stop. To get from uptown to downtown there was an underpass - the stairs on the uptown side are still there (track 4). When the shuttle was created and the pedestrian crossover created at the north end there was no longer a need for the underpass.
That underpass is located right between the BMT Broadway express tracks. Walk to the north end of the Times Square station and you'll see where the tracks spread apart just inside the tunnel.
The tablets and friezes at the Broadway local stations will be cleaned, repointed, regrouted and reglazed as best they can be. This should result in the mosaic looking pretty much as it did when it was a few years old. They will probably put new white tile up, and the tablets will then be recessed. Where you see the cinderblock walls (i.e. 23rd Street), they may put up recreations of the existing mosaics; they have gotten VERY good at doing this lately (perhaps Mr. Vickers is coaching them from the other side), witness some of the recreations found in spots on the Canarsie line stations.
wayne
The recreations at 66th are just amazing.
Yes, they're recreations. Sure, they have the added "LINCOLN CENTER" text, which was obviously not original. But walk over to the far north end of the platform and you'll see the originals, which are missing those words and are somewhat dirty but otherwise match beautifully.
At Grand Central the name tablet on the wall at the north end of the local platform (#6 is about 25% recreation).
The people who they have doing that work are very talented - they certainly have more patience for that type of work that I could ever have.
Does anyone know what those PCCs are doing in the Brooklyn Navy Yard? They're kinda over in the same vacinity as the city vehicle auction yard--clearly visible from Kent Ave. There's got to be 15 of them in orange, red and white, with "RTA" on the side. Why are they in Brooklyn, and where are they from? (I suppose I could ask why there's one SEPTA car on 4th Ave, or why the Boston cars are in Red Hook, since they just sit there, but the Navy Yard ones seem like they might serve some purpose, concidering how many of them there are.)
They are ex-Cleveland (Shaker Rapid) PCC's that were sold to Buffalo for a never built extension of their Light Rail line. They have been acquired by the Brooklyn Trolley Museum for the BTM's streetcar line in the Red Hook section. Two of the principals in the BTM are Bob Diamond and Jan Lorenzen, both of whom post here reglarly.
Yep - these 12 ex-Shaker cars (and maybe another if RTA donates car #66) are to be used for a streetcar line from Red Hook to the Brooklyn Bridge Park and around the downtown Brooklyn area. We are currently renovating operational car #70 as an example. STAY TUNED!!
*Att'n Dave Pirrman -
I think we need to update the section on the BHRA - email me offlist to get current photos and details of the work accomplished so far. There's alot more done than is seen sitting outside. I need to get you new pictures of ex-Boston 3303 inside the shop and the work being done on 70!
Jan
Thanks for the info. More questions, though, if you don't mind. Is there a map of the streetcar's run? Is this going to turn a profit? Be better service than the current MTA busses in Red Hook? When is this going to happen? Why mix Boston and Shaker Heights cars? I used to poke around the Arboway, where Boston was storing the remains of their fleet, and they had a bunch of pre-war cars that had been refurbed at least once. I was lead to believe that these were in much better shape than the picture windows. Then, some thirty or so picture windows got junked, while three or six or whatever you have went to Brooklyn. The refurbed pre-wars? Seems they sat around, and then got junked. Why didn't you pick up those, instead of the Shaker Heights and or picture window Boston cars? While I rue the day the PCC was phazed out of Brooklyn in favor deisel, I can't imagine this being practical. I hope you prove me wrong. --Panama
Rode this fine line's PCCs many times today and loved every moment of it. However, a careful examination of the new track just beyond the current end of service at Franklin Avenue raises a few questions. There are three tracks beyond the current loop, one of which buts into a line pole just before crossing the street that leads to the extended right-of way. One rail extends beyond the pole and has not been cropped and there are additional pre-curved rails laying there. Two expensive crossovers (do they have an endless supply of money for this project?) feed this short third center track and it is not clear just what the alignment will be from the new station to the line extension when the loop is removed. There is a functioning scissors crossover just south of the new Franklin Avenue station, near Heller Parkway, and the alignment of the curved siding and what will be the new inbound track from the extension into Franklin Avenue station is not clear. Anybody know of a site where there might be a track map of this elaborate special work?
A few friends have been talking about a ONE MORE trip on the PCCs of the Newark City Subway some week-day after work.
The rough plan: Start 6 PM at World Trade Center. Take PATH to Penn Station, Newark. Ride the PCCs. Take Path, stop at Harrison for photo op of NJ Transit/Amtrak, then on to Hoboken (to see NJ Transit/Amtrak yard & view of Manhattan from the other side of the river). Take Path to 34th (33rd) near Penn Station, Manhattan. Trip ends.
I'm forming a "core" group ... once I have it, the trip is on, so e-mail me privately if you want to be included in the planning.
Others who might like to join once we announce the date, please feel free to comment here.
Mr t__:^)
Lemme know what date it is. I have more chance of being able to go if I can notify my boss in advance.
I have made a rough track map of the NCS extension. It is a PDF file. See it at my NCS page at http://www.trainweb.org/nyrail/njt/citysubway/citysubway.html.
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Dan, I liked the PCC & LRV photo. It's going to be a classic.
Mr t__:^)
While riding a Q home to Brooklyn at 11:15pm 8/2/01, I saw a train of Red Birds traving North Bound. Does anyone know of any train move Yesterday.
Robert
Coney Island to Corona transfer.
I wonder if the Redbirds that they moved are headed for Davy Jones' locker.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
it could have been a series of Redbirds from the 7. Motormen on the 7 tell me that sometimes the redbirds cross the bridge to Coney island
I don't know way I did not think of this. I would have made sence, this way I would not have had to ask this Question.
Robert
20 lashes with a wet noodle.
TA was hoping the bridge would fail so they wouldn't have to ship them to Delaware ;-)
Geromino-ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
#3595-94 on the southbound end of a garbage train at 34th St on the 6th avenue line, about 11pm. also saw an out-of-service train of r44's westbound at 21st-Queensbridge, lead car #5246.
Since 3594/95 and their cousins have no air conditioning, the garbage train assignment was a productive one. My only problem is since the cars are horses to pull the flat cars, I would hope that the drawbars between the married pairs do not get damaged since they are pulling lots of dead weight.
>>>the drawbars between the married pairs do not get damaged <<<
WHY would that happen? In reglar passenger service they pull a lot MORE weight.
Peace,
ANDEE
In regular service, unless there is a dead motor (or motors) in the consist, all cars on the train have their own propulsion motors. On the garbage train, the flat cars do not have propulsion motors, therefore the motor cars have to pull the flats.
Let the accusations begin
Peace,
ANDEE
The Redbirds are not going to their death easily.
how many times did this happen to any other rail equipment?? I remember when folks HAD SOME SENSE
& got inside the subway / trolley car / transit car QUICKLY.!! & got away from opening & closing doors remember ??
Also they PAID ATTENTION ti what in the hell was goin' on. Its like todays automobile drivers who are worst than ever!
This can happen on any piece of equipment, anywhere. However, the "Redbirds" are the only cars in the NYC subway not equipped with the latest in obstruction detection circuitry and interlocking door edges. They weren't given these things because they are on their way out. This has been discussed here before.
David
i see your point! however,.... remember when the whole fleet did not have door sensors ?
WOW. I must post a sincere agreement with Salaam.
-Hank
blow me
This sure is becoming a very friendly and intimate board.
Wow, it takes a lot to piss off Andy...
????..........................................!
>>> As the group scurried off the train, the doors were closing and caught the child by the ankle, her mother said.
Vena said the train did not move for about three minutes, as it prepared to head back toward Manhattan. <<<
I've read through the posts of many Subtalkers on this and the companion thread, and all speak with knee-jerk regularity of the negligence of the parent, and none suggest there could possibly be any liability on the TA's part.
If in fact the Daily News article is correct and the train sat in the station for three minutes while the mother tried to extract her daughter from the door, and then started up, I would say the TA is on the hook big time, and the C/R should lose his/her job.
Tom
Redbird Dragging In Brooklyn
Peace,
ANDEE
Why do bad things happen to the 4 line? Can someone answer that please. It is sad, but luckilly the girl is okay and did not get any major injuries. When the news said that she hit that pillion I thought she was dead but they said she was alive. If that was a redbird then there goes another reason to get rid of them faster.
"The train, an old redbird, did not have door sensors." -- 1010 WINS
Make of this what you will,
MATT-2AV
Reading the story, apparently there have been 11 door draggings this year on trains that do have sensors, so I think you've got to look at the intellegence of some of the passengers as much as the technology of the trains (which begs the question -- how did the New York City subway system survive its first 85 or so years without the door sensors -- reading the stories in the Daily News, you'd have to figure in the 50s, 60s and earlier there must have been tens of thousands of door draggings per year with no sensors at all on the system)
No matter who agrees or disagrees that is an excellent thought.IIRC the only cars that had a reopening feature were the original IRT fleet and that feature had to be removed [in the early 50's I think] because of tampering and excessive delays.,especially when school kids were about. Perhaps the existence of the feature on most present equipment gives people a false sense of security?
Feel sorry for a 12 year old girl but then many adults should be more careful and aren't??
how did the New York City subway system survive its first 85 or so years without the door sensors...
There were dragging incidents and numerous resulting law suits dating back to gate car days on the Els.
There are some important equipment differences. Practically all IRT and BMT cars used single leaf doors. This meant that the closing doors pushed up against a stationary barrier. Today's double leaf doors trap objects and limbs in a pincer action from two sides. Double leaf doors were introduced with the R1's. The stated purpose for this design switch at that time was to minimize opening and closing times.
Why do bad things happen on the #4 line? I really don't know, but someone should find out. It seems like a jinx is out there somewhere. I could make a comment that this stuff never happened when the #4 train was my Sea Beach long ago, but that certainly is no one's idea of Montezuma's revenge. More likely, it is carelessness and the fact that the #4 train is one of the fastest trains in the system. Have you ever noticed it almost a straight line from Woodlawn into midtown Manhattan, and express much of the way. Perhaps because of the speed it picks up as it travels it has a get out of the station type mentality on the part of the motormen. I know only this. Too many kids have been victims of accidents and something must be done to prevent this. Would hiring another conductor per train help out to make certain that no one is between the doors when the train takes off. That, of course, doesn't end all the problems, especially some of those jerks who like to cross the tracks now and then. How to you prevent that?
my question is what makes the sensor on these trains? if the sensor is when the doors are closing and something is caught in between them, the light that says if they are open or not stays on, then the redbirds have sensors. the only newest sensors that i have seen is the kind from the new fleet where the doors repeatedly open and close to free objects. but if it is the usual sensor that we see on the trains, the redbirds have them too and the media is blowing things out of proportion (not like they never do)
I think that part of the problem is that this line is overcrowed and therefore rests on the shoulders of the public. I have seen people push their way into a crowded car and not get off even if the doors cannot close.
If they got off they would find out that there is usually an empty train behind them or nearly empty cars on the ends. God forbid they should have to walk 50 feet to the exit from the train.
There might not be as many draggings if people behaved like they should and don't try to hold doors or squeeze in. Allow yourself time to get where you're going and you won't have to "make that train".
Many of the recent reported incidents that resulted in injury were as a result of people trying to get off a train.
"After a 45-year-old woman was dragged 50 feet at a subway station on 155th Street in Harlem on April 3, the City Council's Office of Oversight and Investigation demanded answers from the usually tight-lipped NYC Transit."
"In fact, an inspection of the D train that dragged Carol Mason 50 feet along the Harlem platform showed the doors and sensors were working properly."
I've taken two passages from the Newsday article to ask a simple question. If the door systems on that D train were adjusted and working properly (and they were), then how can a grown woman be dragged 50 feet by the doors of that train? The answer is why you should not put too much faith in newspaper accounts of such incidents.
A lot of accidents wouldn't happened if people weren't so careless.
Maybe people aren't paying attention to their surroundings or maybe society (the schools/media particularly) is just producing ignorant people. Who knows.....
N/W
Not just careless! Tuesday evening I was at 59th St. As I de-trained an uncrowded D train, a woman with sever children brushed past me. As the doors began to close she pushed one of the children onto the train. She then beag to scream that the child was trapped (not caught in the doors). I had the operator tell the conductor to reopen the doors and the rest of the pack boarded the train. Now do you want to know how stupid some people are or why some incidents take place?
Too bad we cannot apply Darwin to the parents; they put their children in danger.
I bet all these people that shove their kids/strollers on the train are the same people who on the street stand on the corner with the stroller in the street and themselves on the sidewalk.
Drives me crazy seeing this!!
I just made a few choice remarks on this to Train Dude, but I still can't get it through my head that some parents can be so irresponsibly stupid. What gives?
It's simple. You do not have to pass an IQ test to give sperm or receive it.
Hey Dude, makes you wonder just how much gas is in their pumps. A bunch of mental low lifers.
She's the one driving the minivan with the pro-life bumper sticker, and her 6 year old hanging out the front passenger window at 50mph on the BQE.
-Hank
Or worse yet - walk into the street from the middle of two parked cars leading with the stroller as if it is a magical stop sign.
Try telling that to Gene Hackman in The French Connection.
Combination of parent, child and society.
N/W
That certainly can be one valid reason for these draggings all right. Some parents are out to lunch when it comes to child safety. However, there are no tests to determine intelligence eligibility for parenting. If there were about 50% of prospective parents would flunk out I'm afraid. That lady should have been willing to miss that train and line her kids up so that they would have to rush into the next one. A stitch in time saves nine, I used to be told. A little common sense could go a long way too. What is it with some of these young parents today?
Your typo is apropo.
-Hank
Not just careless! Tuesday evening I was at 59th St. As I de-trained an uncrowded D train, a woman with several children brushed past me. As the doors began to close she pushed one of the children onto the train. She then beag to scream that the child was trapped (not caught in the doors). I had the operator tell the conductor to reopen the doors and the rest of the pack boarded the train. Now do you want to know how stupid some people are or why some incidents take place?
Let me see if I understand this incident.
As I de-trained an uncrowded D train...
1. There was sufficient room in the train to accomodate the passengers trying to get on
...a woman with several children brushed past me...
2. The woman and her several children were already on the platform waiting to board the train. The woman and her children stepped up to the door while it was open and in the process of discharging passengers.
As the doors began to close she pushed one of the children onto the train...
3. The doors began to close while the party was in the process of boarding the train.
Is this what happened?
Where possible, you should HOLD DOORS in case of an emergency. (Note: Do NOT try to hold doors on the R142(A)'s!) If a force is acting upon the door in the opposite direction, the doors would automatically reopen because they are 'latch' operated. The conductor will sense the doors on his conductor's cab, and then he SHOULD CHECK the length of the station platform (both sides of the train) BEFORE closing doors.
I think some conductors are just so careless and short-tempered when it comes to closing doors. That's the primary reason why there are SO MANY DRAGS on the subway! It's not smart AT ALL for a conductor to close the doors WHILE a crowd or an individual is trying to discharge or enter the train.
MTA should have trained those conductors better.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Subway doors don't reopen automatically. They haven't done so for decades. (Maybe you're thinking of your elevator.)
What sort of an emergency would warrant holding doors? I guess if a baby's head is about to get crushed, it's a good idea to hold the doors back. But more often holding doors creates the emergency.
Doors on R-142/142As do reopen. They have a "bounce back" feature that works quite well. I have seen it myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
Doors on R-142/142As do reopen. They have a "bounce back" feature that works quite well. I have seen it myself.
I should go see for it myself. I read a topical article on About.Com (I don't like About.com for this) of the R142's and their expression of the subway cars were a little bit of 'satire'. They mentioned that it's impossible to force open doors here because they were electrically powered.
Do you have the car # and on what line you were on that you recalled the "bounce-back" feature?
Railfan Pete.
>>>Do you have the car # and on what line you were on that you recalled the "bounce-back" feature?<<<
ALL R-142/142As have this feature.
Peace,
ANDEE
R142/A's door panel will reopen three times I believe all by itself and try to close. After the 3rd attempt it requires the C/R to recycle the door closing procedure (open/close?).
No matter how you slice it guys, it all starts with the parents. They have an obligation to see to their children's safety first and foremost. If that is taken care of much of these tragedies would not take place. Perhaps if the motormen are ill tempered and tired, an extra hour or two of work, coupled with breaks of some duration might be an answer. This way the MM can get in a full day's work, but be refreshed so he is not tired and irritable. They are, after all, only human.
True, but they only bounce back an inch or so. I've only seen this in action on a car with a fidgety door; nothing was blocking it but it bounced open at two or three stops.
All NYCT cars have a "PUSH-BACK" feature where, once the doors are locked, the door panels can be pushed back 1 1/2" per panel or 3" per opening (against a spring linkage). This helps in freeing trapped customers and also protects the door linkage.
It was repeatedly noted in specs provided by the TA and other organizations that the doors on the R142/142A cars were equipped with door sensors that would move ONLY the held door, and no others; this prevents further door holding from the conductor cycling the doors.
-Hank
Yes, I should have made clear that only the held panel reopens.
Peace,
ANDEE
Subway doors don't reopen automatically. They haven't done so for decades.
That's not true. I held open the doors on an IRT R62 #1 train at 42nd St. Times Square. It opened back up. Also, numerous people hold the doors while they're closing firmly on the R32's on the E line . I have some instances.
And also on a southbound E, a person placed a thick (but small) book between the doors while they were closing. The doors couldn't close, so the generous conductor opened it back up (because he sensed the doors couldn't close) and served that passenger.
I haven't been on an R142 train frequently, but I know I'm not going to even TRY to hold the doors there.
Railfan Pete.
The only trains, presently in revenue service for the NYCTA, that have doors that reopen automatically when an obstuction is detected are the
R-142/142As. Any other reopenings you may have seen are done manually by the conductor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sure, the doors reopen -- when the C/R reopens them. They don't reopen automatically.
Please don't hold doors. Holding doors delays service for everyone else and can earn you a $100 ticket.
they need to write more of them tickets. maybe use the millions they'd make off of it to build the 2nd av line.
Alot of people would have to hold the doors to build the second avenue line.About 200,000,000 if they all got a $100 fine.
consider how many people hold the doors though... up the fine a bit, and hey, baddabing-baddaboom! =)
" The doors couldn't close, so the generous conductor opened it back up (because he sensed the doors couldn't close) and served that passenger.
"served that passenger"
Please elaborate more... Thanks!
N/W
WRONG AGAIN PETE.
There are no R-62s on the #1 line
The doors on any car through R-68A do not open automatically on obstruction.
If you disagree, please re-read the first line.
Dude, I'd forgive mixing up the 'A' car types. I'm surprised you didn't call him on the alleged generosity of the conductor who open the doors for the brain-dead rider's book.
I'm pretty sure it's called, depending on how one feels:
Saving My Own Ass
Saving My Own Job
Making Sure The Train Can Move
Protecting The Idiots From Themselves.
-Hank
(Note-new warning sticker: DO NOT FOLD STROLLER BEFORE REMOVING CHILD, ASSHOLE!)
I'd like to know how the conductor senses the door being held. Does he have an interface port for the non-microprocessor equipped doors of the R32, ala Robocop?
-Hank
No. Psychic powers granted by Cleo.
There will plenty of time to speculate as to where any fault might lay after we get and dissect the eye witness account.
"I think some conductors are just so careless and short-tempered when it comes to closing doors. That's the primary reason why there are SO MANY DRAGS on the subway! It's not smart AT ALL for a conductor to close the doors WHILE a crowd or an individual is trying to discharge or enter the train."
I don't doubt this either. But lets also look at the management. Conductors are constantly warned that they must not exceed the 15 second dwelling period. This means that once the train stops, by the time the doors are opened, he is given at least given 15 seconds to leave the station. Unfortunately, this puts our safety at risk.
I've seen promotional material all around the subway (billboards and brochures) that caution passengers about holding doors or running for trains. It makes no sense to see passengers running for trains, because, it not only puts themselves at risk, but it also delays millions of riders who uses the system everyday.
I use to run for trains until I realize that commonsense will tell you that the next train will be in about 5 minutes. Also, if riders riders are late for their appointments, they can easily flag a cab. Anyway, I don't want you all to thing that I'm attacking this child, but let the truth be known, she and her mother was at fault!
N/W
So now it's management's fault for drags? So now the conductors are all ill-tempered? Hmmmmmmmm! And you have documentation that conductors are under pressure to limit dwell time to 15 seconds? Let's see - 1.5 seconds for the door to open & 2.5 seconds for them to close. That leaves 11 seconds for the customers. If you can prove what you claim then you could make a strong case against management. Can you post the proof?
Oh yeah. That's a good one. Kindly remove your head from Pete's ass before you post horseshit. The reason dwell times are INCREASING is because IDIOTS hold the doors. IF TA management has responded to this by telling conductors not to hold the doors open in a quest to DECREASE dwell time (and thus increasing service), that's the EFFECT, not the CAUSE.
-Hank
I take issue with you blaming the conductors for the draggings. Sometimes they can't avoid hitting a passenger with a door because at some stations there is always someone coming down the stairs and you just have to get out of there sometime! Also, once the door ways are clear, there is a lull of a few seconds between the time the conductor hits the closing buttons and the time the 2 door panels come together to close. In those 2 seconds people throw themselves or objects into the doorway. In one case on the N some years ago, in which I was the train operator, some dumb broad held out her baby in front of her to block the doors from closing! Or so she thought! Thank God my conductor reopened before the baby got crushed. Perhaps one day you will be a NYCT conductor and then you will see uncivilised human behavior and you will see how "easy" it is to close subway doors while trying to save some idiot from hurting themselves!
Thank you...for enableing people to see this from the other side of the coin. (so to speak)
Peace,
ANDEE
Amen! Not to mention the people that will continue to hold the doors on you long after you've made it clear you're NOT going to open them again, and then challenge you by keeping their arm in it, refusing to let go ... I've seen this tired old game of chicken way too many times.
Been there, done that, eh?
It'll make you wish that there were chainsaws mounted inside the rubber bumpers. :)
Thank you Bill from Maspeth. I could not have say it better myself.
Here's a question: I often wonder why on earth conductors or T/O's don't say a few choice things to the idiots can hold the doors and refuse to let go (waiting for the conductor to open them) over the PA. A little public embarassment for these idiots can go a long way. Even if it's just as simple as "You, in the white shirt holding the doors towards the front - the doors are not going to reopen, and you are delaying everyone around you from getting home or getting to work. You might want to get out of the door immediately before someone gets upset".
...i assume there is some rule against that sort of action, or perhaps tossing in a few good curse words?
ALSO:
are their fines for people holding doors? there should be, and it should be enforced. the city could make a small fortune.
If someone is holding the door on a particular train, some conductors will NOT open the doors again until the guy lets it go. Or sometimes, they totally dis the guy and open them just a little then slam them shut. That's why I don't do it. It's easier to wait for the next one than get embarrased or possibly dragged.
On the Montreal Metro a couple of years back, in reference to someone who held the doors open and slithered into the train...
"Attention all passengers: the short delay we just experienced at Atwater Station is due to a person in the seventh car who was holding the doors open so that he may board the train. The STCUM apologizes on behalf of this individual for any inconvenience this may have caused. Thank you."
That kind of language is not permitted in New York City. The Rapid Transit Operations "blue book" specifically states what may be said and what may not be said over the PA system, and singling out a particular customer is definitely forbidden. A revised Bulletin about this issue came out just last week.
David
I don't think there's any such rule in Montreal. I've heard the T/O come over the PA and quite rudely tell people to let go of the doors, or to stop playing with the doors in between stations (because the doors are tied in with the brakes, playing with the doors brings the train to a screeching halt and sends everyone flying). I've on occasion even heard a couple of french swear words over the PA!!
One other thing I've noticed on all American rapid transit systems that I've ridden on... there's always a delay of about three seconds between the time the train comes to a complete stop and the time the doors open. Is this a federal law in the US? There's also a similar delay between when the doors close and the train starts.
In Montreal and Toronto, the doors open right away after the train stops. In Toronto, there's a short delay after the doors close and the train starts, but not in opening the doors after the train stops. In Montreal, there are no delays, the doors open when the train stops, and the train starts immediately after the doors close.
It's called a non-automated system. The humans running the train need reaction time.
-Hank
>>The humans running the train need reaction time.
Yeah I agree, but Toronto trains are run by humans exactly like the NYC subway is, and there is no lag time between when the train stops and the doors open, only between when the doors close and the train starts. And even then it isn't as long a lag as on most US subways that I've ridden. The Montreal Metro is frequently run manually (and you can always tell when they are because the operators aren't very good at it!! :) and yet there is no lag time even when this is the case.
Conversely, the Miami MetroMover is entirely ATO, and there is still an approx. 3 sec. lag between when the train stops and when the doors open. The Washington Metro is operated in the exact same fashion as the Montreal Metro, ATO with an operator in front controlling the doors, and they do the same thing.
This leads me to believe that it is a law in the US wait about 3 seconds between when the train stops and the doors open. Is there such a law?
Greg, I have a very serious question to ask you. I started to ask this question of you twice before and thought better of it but now I must ask. I have a cousin in vancouver, a cousin in Toronto and a cousin in Montreal. You seem to have the very same habit that they have. No matter what the subject - it seems that it's always done better in canada. I can't seem to understand how you can compare the montreal system or the toronto system with the NYC system. I have more scale tracks on my lionel trains than either system. I guess this is not a question after all - just an observation...
You know I was thinking the same thing after posting my last post ("Dang, I'm comparing too much, they're going to think I think the NYC subway sucks!!).
Sorry... I didn't mean to come off that way. Actually, to tell you the truth, I actually prefer the US "3-second rule" (as I've now dubbed it for lack of a better term), I think that a short lag between the time a train stops and the doors open is a good idea, it allows people to wait until the train is stopped before getting out of their seats and walking to the doors (barring a crowded train), which is good for elderly or mobility impaired folks who have trouble standing on a moving train. I also like a short lag between the time the doors close and the time the train leaves, it leaves the conductor enough time to see if anyone's caught in the doors, as well as enough time for passengers to sit down or grab onto something before the train moves.
I'm not saying any system is better, I'm just comparing. There are some things on Canadian subway systems that I think should be done on American systems, and I think there are some things on American systems that should be done on Canadian systems.
Anyways, don't get me wrong, the NYC subway is one of my favorite subway systems!!!
Oh, and I know what you mean about your relatives and probably every other Canadian you'll ever meet... let's just say we Canadians have a lot of national pride!! :)
Thanks for the extremely honest answer, Greg.
WRONG AGAIN PETE!
The primary reason for drags is that people are careless, reckless and thoughtless. They take for granted, things that are not so.
If you disagree with me - please re-read the first line of this posting.
What is wrong with these parents who push their kids onto trains? Never mind the possibility of being dragged - what about the possibility of your child being stranded in a subway car full of strangers, and the parent being stuck on the platform? When I ride the subway with my kids, I'm cautious almost to the point of paranoia that the doors might close between my kids and myself. I hold their hand, and we all board together.
I've been known to avoid boarding a train sitting at the platform if my years of subway-riding experience tell me that I may not be able to board safely because the conductor will soon be closing the doors. Talk about getting some funny looks - the average rider seems to think that they have the right to board any train that is sitting in the station when they arrive, even if they are 100 feet away from the nearest open door. Maybe it comes from being a railfan and paying more attention to the mechanics of the train than the average rider does, but more often than not, my instincts are correct and the doors close.
Maybe what we need to have happen is a parent get cited for child endangerment in one of these instances.
Jim D. (RailBus)
"Maybe what we need to have happen is a parent get cited for child endangerment in one of these instances."
Nawww. That's not what we need! We have too much government prying into the private lives of the citizens. What we do need is mandatory parental classes established by community organizations. These parental classes will teach parents how to take more responsibility in their children's safety. Whether that includes a subway train, school, crossing the street, or the foods they eat, I think it is necessary.
N/W
We have too much government prying into the private lives of the citizens.
What we do need is mandatory parental classes established by community organizations.
And that's NOT prying? A citation for something done in public is not prying into private lives. Something done in public is NOT private.
I feel more comfortable with community base organizations (run by private citizens of course) than government agencies. So I suggest the latter. Anyway, something has to give...
N/W
What you need is both: edgimicating the (idiot) parents, and stiff fines for doing stupid things like pushing a child onto a train while the doors are closing.
And how do we educate parents? We meaning the general public and not just the MTA. Case in point: 12:15 D Bedford park this afternoon. A young hispanic mother with an older hispanic woman were traveling with two toddlers (I raise the issue of ethnicity only because of the language problems). Now you would think that after all of the horror over the little boy who fell between the doors of a B train, that no responsible parent would even allow their child near an end door, locked or not. Well this woman sat at the end of the car on one side and the older woman on the other side. the male child was playing with the end door handle and neither said a word. Now, the end doors on the R-68 are locked and the door weighs over 300 LBS so a child won't open it too easily. However, what happens next time when this same child is on a slant 40? Anyway, I tried to explain to the mother that her child should not be allowed to play there. She cocked her head like my poodle (Harley), trying to understand but just couldn't. I even motioned for her to move to another seat but "no sale."
Now, is there possibly anyone in NYC who had not heard about the previous tragedy? Am I expecting too much from common sense?
You live, you breathe, you visit subtalk. Any questions? :)
I have no idea, honestly. outside of the ads in multi languages that are all over the subways, all the time, is there more than can be done? should it even be attempted? perhaps one could be offered at the transit museum, sorta like how there are places that teach fire safety?
I hate to say it, but common sense is just not that common these days.
Hi
I FULLY agree with you, similar thimgs happen here in the UK, and when you advise them (the parents) what may happen, they just shrug their shoulders!! as much to say, this won't happen to me, and then they start screaming for $1000 of compensation £'s in the UK, what more can you do!!!Regards Bob
As we say in the US, drop back 10 yeard and punt. Alas civilization as we know it may be lost.
Just about everyone I know rode around without a seat belt as a child in the 1960s. Just about everyone I know had parents who smoked and drank when they were pregnant.
By the standards of 30 years ago, today's parents are paranoid. We have some parents on our block who allow their children to do things we all did as kids, and we think they are nuts. Perhaps the value of life hasn't risen quite as high in NYC, or perhaps all the education has been directed at the typical suburban life (ie. cars).
But yes, they can be taught. Or at least some of them.
Just about everyone I know rode around without a seat belt as a child in the 1960s. Just about everyone I know had parents who smoked and drank when they were pregnant.
And don't forget about the toys we played with, with the sharp metal edges and small easily-swallowed pieces. How did we ever survive :-)
You own a POODLE named HARLEY?!?!?
HAHAHAHA!
-Hank :)
(All in fun, of course)
Hell ... he owns a Harley named "poodle" ... I've DONE the Concourse yards from the 205th center track ... spend time there and you'll go silently mad. :)
Yes I do. 2 years old and 14 pounds of trouble. My wife says he's as close as I'll ever get to owning one.
It is totally wrong to call people "idiots" for holding subway doors. People who hold doors are behaving intuitively and reasonably.
There is one simple reason that so many people push their kids (or their own bodies) into the doors. It is not that people are willingly putting their children (or themselves) into danger; is that they do not see the danger because they believe that the doors are like elevator doors which reopen automatically.
The act of holding the door is based on reasonable expectations which arise from living in a technological society. Automatically-reopening doors on elevators have been around for many decades, and are everywhere, even in the most run-down buildings. It ain't exactly cutting-edge technology. So, encountering doors like this on the subway resembles the "elevator" experience to such a degree that it triggers a state of mind which cannot be counteracted in most people simply by "Do Not Hold the Doors" signs, or even by news of the latest dragging.
More importantly, even someone who is not making an unconscious connection between elevator doors and subway doors may reasonably presume that this obvious and sensible safety feature was built into the subway, and would probably be surprised to find out that it was not.
All of which brings us to the real point, which is: the doors ought to reopen automatically. This would eliminate all risk of dragging once and for all.
Some people would probably contend that this would also cause massive service backups. And it would, for a short time. But, on account the short learning curve (given that auto-reopening doors would work with -- rather than against -- riders' expectations), I'd bet that this effect would pass relatively quickly.
So, while it is sensible to call people "idiots" when they push strollers out in front of moving traffic, it is ridiculous to heap scorn upon them for a flaw in the subway.
Ferdinand Cesarano
>Some people would probably contend that this would also cause massive service backups. And it would, for a short time. But, on account the short learning curve (given that auto-reopening doors would work with -- rather than against -- riders' expectations), I'd bet that this effect would pass relatively quickly.
I'm one of those people who contend this. If the doors automatically reopened everytime someone pushed it at a busy station, the train would NEVER leave the station!!! There is a constant flow of people coming into certain subway stations wanting the same train. I don't think any person would get into the mindset of willfully refraining from taking advantage of this feature, and the result would be the train staying in the station until the train is packed like sardines and no-one else would fit! And then at the next station, a full train pulls in and people would end up holding the doors open to take advantage of the 3 inches of room left in the train.
I think the R142-R142A system would work the best... automatically open the door enough to let someone get their foot unstuck, but that's it!
>This would eliminate all risk of dragging once and for all.
The best way to prevent draggings is to interlock the doors with the brakes like on the Montreal Metro, but I don't think NYC could modify their trains to do this without great expense. There's nothing preventing them from including this on all their new trains, though.
>>The best way to prevent draggings is to interlock the doors with the brakes like on the Montreal Metro,
In NYC Subway you can not take power if a door is open. No need to interlock them with the brakes. No Power, you can't move the car (albeit you can release the brakes and roll).
>In NYC Subway you can not take power if a door is open. No need to interlock them with the brakes. No Power, you can't move the car (albeit you can release the brakes and roll).
But then how do the dragging incidents in NYC occur if the train can't move while the doors are open? Are these dragging incidents caused solely by releasing the brakes and rolling?
The doors can jam something and be almost completely closed.
Pressure sensors detect anything pushing against the rubber tongue and groove that connects the two leaves of the door.
It can happen the same way it can happen in Montreal or anywhere else. If the train's door system senses that the doors are closed when, in fact, someone is caught in the doors, the train will move whether the system is tied to the propulsion or braking.
Ahhh, I see!! So now let's say someone pries open the doors midway between stations in NYC while the train is moving... does the train stop dead like they do in Montreal?
It seems to me that the Montreal Metro doors are physically tied in with the brakes, like the rear doors on a city bus. I don't think they use sensors to detect door openings. I could be wrong though so I'll do a little more research.
No. The train does not stop.
on older cars, you can pry the doors a 3 or 4 inches at the most while it is in motion., which unfortunately is not enough to toss any door-holders off the train from. =)
>which unfortunately is not enough to toss any door-holders off the train from
LOL!! Aren't we all tempted to do that!!
I just confirmed from what I said I would from my last post... the Montreal Metros do have their doors interlocked with the braking system, just like the rear doors on a city bus. It is impossible for a Montreal train to move unless all the doors are closed and locked.
Another interesting tidbit about Montreal door mechanisms is that if the rubber edges on the doors close on anything, like a limb, they won't automatically reopen but they'll stop in their tracks, allowing the person to easily get their limbs free. The door then continues closing once the obstruction is gone.
I'd like to know if any other transit systems have these safety features. I know that among Canadian transit systems Montreal is the only one that does.
Te rear doors of a city bus aren't tied into the brakes, but an accelerator cut out I beleive. I've seen the doors open on a bus and we still rolled.
>>> It is totally wrong to call people "idiots" for holding subway doors <<<
Good post, but unfortunately you are out of step with most of the subway fans on this board who believe that the riding public is at fault for all accidents, and believe the public must modify its behavior rather than have the system engineered to carry the public (with all their limitations) safely.
Tom
HAHAHA!
i for one am glad the doors DO NOT automatically reopen. If they did, many trains would never leave the station.
Also: i heard a few years back that in DC, the doors simply lock up - and the conductor must come and key open any door that any fool gets stuck in. this was perhaps 8 or 9 years ago that i heard this: is it true?
the guy who stuck his arm in that door says everyone on the train pretty much looked like they wanted to kill him for NOT knowing they could not reopen.
i for one am glad the doors DO NOT automatically reopen. If they did, many trains would never leave the station.
The IRT LV's did automatically reopen. The LV's ran their routes in substantially less time than at present. The IRT also had an on time performance, based on a 3 minute threshold, that the TA can't match.
The door recyclers, aka sensitive edges, were added to the
Lo-V fleet in the 1930s. They were a fad in the transit
industry. A bunch of Third Avenue streetcars had them as
well as PCCs (not Brooklyn though). What you failed to mention
is that they were taken off the Lo-Vs in the 50s because they
were so troublesome.
Thanks for this additional information regarding the installation date. The reported on time performance, based on being more than 3 minutes late at the terminal, for 1949 was 88%. The scheduled running times were approximately 10% less than today's. To be sure, the IRT's performance paled in comparison to the BMT and IND, both of whose performace was better than 98%. However, the IRT at that time was platforming 8 and 9 cars at express stops with trains composed of 10 cars, as well as carrying higher service load levels than the other two divisions.
The reason for removing this feature may have been mechanical problems, once the TA took over. The assumption that passengers would abuse the system and thereby prevent the trains from maintaining a schedule is disproved by these statistics. The trains ran tighter schedules with much better on time performance. The fact that these devices may have been removed for mechanical problems is not germane. One would assume that reliable door recyclers could be built and maintained, based on the elevator industry experience.
There is also a reasonable theoretical basis to believe that a door recycler would result in reduced dwell time over the current system.
The sensitive edges may have been removed for maintenance
reasons, or the increasingly poor behavior of the passengers
holding doors may have motivated it.
Yes, the IRT gave better service 70 years ago, at least in
terms of running time and OTP. They did so with a substantially
higher labor requirement (in terms of hours, not dollars) and
much poorer conditions for the workers.
The systemwide average OTP for 2000 was over 90%. Of course,
the measurement criteria are not the same as in 1949 so it
is apples and oranges.
In terms of getting the doors closed the fastest, the R142s come
close. They have a selective recycler button which the conductor
can push to recycle all open doors. At least this prevents more
doors which were already closed from being grabbed during the
recycle. The most aggressive measure would have been to have this
button start to open the doors and then close them again when
the button is released, or when the CLOSE button is pushed for the
zone. This way the held doors could be "popped" rather than taking
a complete recycle, but the current party line is that popping doors
is bad.
I'm sure all of this violates a turn of the century law requiring
that a man and his horse be allowed to board a coach before the
gates are closed.
Jeff ... does 1689 allow "rocking?" Used to be on SOME of the R1/9's, if you pulled the trigger and snapped the cap real fast (required leaning over) you could "pop" the doors on those if you were fast enough ... I know the lower numbered cars in the 1 and 4 series could do it, some of the 6's could also but someone I know tells me that they'd go full cycle on the 9's ... in other words, once you let the air out, they had to retract fully before you could send them back.
Used to love to slap (ahem) "customers" upside the head when I could. :)
I'm not sure. I'll have to try it out
THAT'S why I asked ... I mean ... c'mon, Unca Jeff? How many of those are laid up to play with in Train Dude's sandbox? Heh. But I believe you have a "9" there and if so, it didn't work on those. I know it did on the 1's and 4's and SOME of the 6's ... the later cars had an interlock that forced the doors to "complete the trip" before they'd roll back the other way.
Then again, if that car isn't quite "fully 9" maybe it will work. I remember blurring through school where they explained it in intricate detail - the newer cars at the break point had a lever interlock that required that the door hit it before it would let the pistons be charged. Just can't remember where it all changed.
Since you've played with that puppy, you too must get a kick out of how the R1/9's that we worked were pretty much the same, but from GE this and Westinghouse that and some classes that were one or the other solely, it's amusing how so many cars that looked almost identical were all so radically different in their own way, and yet got along. A valuable lesson for a handful of subtalkers lies here. :)
I don't think that station is on a curve. The basic fault probably does fall on the passenger, but how did the C/R not notice this for three minutes?
Somehow I seriously doubt that the train remained there for three minutes with the child stuck, then moved on. I'd bet a dozen Krispy Kremes that the train began to move almost immediately after the doors closed, but the parent misstated the time out of either (1) total misperception of how long it really was - not impossible when you consider the amount of fear the mother must have felt and the impact which that fear has on perceptive judgment - or (2) thinking this will get her a nice pile of easy cash from the TA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe in THEIR native language
'three SECONDS' is pronounced 'three MINUTES'.
Not to mention having one's shoe/ankle stuck
should leave the door ajar with just about
enough space to stick one's hands in and pry
the doors apart further... releasing shoe/ankle.
Shouldn't take three minutes to count your kids...
south ferry as U & I know on R-142 Subtalk the redbirds will be blamed 100% for
" 4 Train Drag " resposibility ?? common sense ? hell no ( just blame the redbirds & kick back ) lol !!!
I don't know how easy it would be to modify NYC Subway cars with this feature, but on the Montreal Metro the train simply won't move if the doors are open even a little.
I'm not sure about the exact mechanics of it, but I know the doors are somehow tied to the braking system. Because of this I don't think there has ever been a dragging in Montreal.
Of course, there is one downside... a popular challenge among Montreal teenagers is to see who can pry the doors open while the train is travelling full speed between stations and stop the train dead. And I mean the train literally stops dead in it's tracks! Everyone on board is sent flying!!! Then the T/O calmly (because this happens often) gets on the PA and says "Please do not play with the doors, you're wasting everyone's time", and then moves on.
Forgive me if this wasn't already mentioned, as i haven't read all the posts on this thread - BUT:
does anyone else find it ironic how politicians, many of whom likely rejected funding better doors on the redbirds and other subwya cars years ago, are hoping on the issue - saying that the MTA needs to get rid of the redbirds because of the doors while they know full well that they are already in the process of being retired? So... once all the redbirds are gone, and the media attention behind draggings dies down a bit, you can bet you'll see the same politicians claiming they helped get ride of them scary, dangerous redbirds and prevent draggings...
Please...
It's not the redbirds - it's stupid passengers that for some reason think that squeezing in a closing door is a smart thing to do.
what happened at 42 yesterday around 130pm? All the PA said was Police investigation.
i think.. :-\
Sherman Cheung
Welcome back, Sherman... new handle I see :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just got tickets to this trip, but I don't have the flyer. "HARTBus" informed me of it and it sounded interesting but could someone who is going give me details? I know we will be riding BMT D-Type Triplex cars from Chambers St. to Metropolitan Ave. then somehow we will go down to the 38th St. Yard near Bush while being hauled by 2 diesels. Whate else?
I plan to bring two digital cameras with 300Mb total of memory and a 35mm camera with plenty of film!
Who else from here is going on the trip?
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
I'm committed (what else is new).
I don't believe however, that the SBK diesels will be added to the D-Type consist UNTIL we get to 38th Street Yard. Otherwise N1 and N2 will have to be waiting over by Fresh Pond Yard, and I doubt that that is the plan.
BMTman
I'm going too....
Me three (as we used to say in Sunnyside). Guess Shoreline will be shorthanded.
More than you think, there are a lot of members that take the march of dimes trip.
Give my regards to those gentle behemoths.
I'll be there.
BTW - I posted information (including "recreating" the flyer) on here at the end of June.
Is this the trip taking place on the 26th? If so, could someone either put the information about it here or email me? I'm planning to be in the area for that weekend and I wouldn't mind going on it if possible.
Thanks,
Robert King
Sorry, Tickets were sold out as of Monday.
Are they using two sets or all three?? Hmmm....
I really think they should be using all three, but what do I know. More seats, more butts to sit on them. Heh.
I might be watching for you guys. I may not be on the train since I have to work that day, if the train is at the dock early enough, expect to find a TA employee in full uniform getting pictures with the train on the street.
Damn, I wish I could be there. Unfortunately, I have to be at Bowling Green by 10 minutes to 5 in the afternoon. What are the chances of the trip being over by then?
-Stef
I heard of the trip on Wednesday so the tickets were unavailable due to being sold out even if I had acted immediately. It does take some financial pressure off my trip though.
Thanks,
Robert King
I just heard this on abc a news on top of the hour newscast in about an hour i guess a vidieo of some sort will come in about this
I was not aware of any el commuter train other than the CTA subway types certaniy did not se this on the amtrak southwest chief
& the transfer to the lake shore limited that ends at penn station in nyc !! ( hope i got that right ) lol !!
( the other one is grand central station right ) ??? oh well wait until more news of the derailment & or collision comes in .
come on man !! nobody heard this on the news yet ?? ...........geeeeezzz !!
Ummmm, haven't you seen the post about 'CTA Trains Collide'????
BMTman
Where is it ??
the other one is grand central station right
The Post Office? Oh, you mean GCT!
Ok whatever , !! lol !!
CTA Train Accident
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010803/ts/train_accident_2.html
N/W
This morning my Washington Post reported on the same subject. However the wording is "Commuter", not "EL". The reporter does not know the difference between an L vs commuter like his elbow and his.......
Anyway would he call our subway an "underground commuter train", or even worst the NYC Metro?
Dumbasses can't believe anybody would willingly ride a train, except for getting to work.
All a matter of wordage...commuter rail of course intrpreted as what you have in mind...on "big" railroad trackage so I see your point. But then the main purpose of els and subways is COMMUTERS, a few shoppers, railfans and other passengers but then again technically not a commuter train [heavy rail is the name] even if it is hauling commuters...oh well.
Why do people say they're going to the subway even when the line is elevated at the point they embark? Just happens to be part of the subway system.
CTA Trains Collide
Peace,
ANDEE
What sort of signal system does the L have? If it's functioning properly, should collisions be possible in regular operations?
Article states a problem with computer software that is supposed to determine how closely the train in front of you is ..... manual overide was in effect of the time of the collision.
Must have been the NT Blue Screen of Death :)
--Mark
Something told me to turn on the TV news at 11am and there it was, CTA "L" Collision....actually I was looking for followup to Mondays flooding rains we had here in Chicago.
From the helicopter footage, there was almost no damage to the ends of the cars involved. Both trains were moved to the next station, Chicago and Franklin, after about 90 minutes, with most of the passengers still aboard, where a second triage was set up.
Both trains were jammed packed, six cars. The Blue train in front was 2400s and the Brown train 3200s. The collision occured at the famed "Church Curve" just south of Division ST. It's an S curve dating from the 1900 construction when the then=four track mainline dodged around a huge church building. Workers on scaffolding on the church walls had ringside seats.
The outside four tracks have been unused since the 70s, the ties and steel probably kept in the event of a derailment. The territory is ATC which is cab signal. The cab displays allowed speed and enforces an emergency brake application if not responded to in two and a half seconds.
According to news accounts, the Brown Line train was operating with its cab signal system "cutout." This happens frequently. The speed limit is not 6 mph in this circumtance, as the CTA Chairman was quoted on TV.
To operate with the cab signals cut out, control and the motorman agree to a set of rules, read aloud by the controller, they exchange badge numbers and then control gives permission to operate between two sets of stations. The CTA cannot pinpoint the location of any train and only depend upon wayside triggers that manually note the passage of a train. By charting these passages and recording run numbers, controllers then now approximate locations of trains.
The rules read are telling for the rear TO..."in cases of reduced visibility, like on curves...you are to operate your train at a reduced speed to enable you stop short of any obstruction."
25 mph is the usual speed on the curve. Several persons interviewed on TV said they heard emergency brakes and the screeching before impact, which was usually described as a "loud explosion." What they probably heard were the track brakes being applied if the train was going 25 and the TO saw the standing train coming around the blind curve.
What still is to be answered is not why was the forward train standing, but was control aware and why was the following train given permission to proceed without a "clear" block.
Then again, maybe the following train WAS aware and was closing at 6 mph and somehow its brakes failed. Given the number of injuries..60 plus with three critical, this seems remote. Well, the 4 pm news is in 30 minutes, I'll talk to you later.
David Harrison
Actually, the outside two tracks have been out of use since the 1960's. The elevated structure at this point is wide enough for four tracks, however the CTA has never really needed more than two tracks. The reason for the outside two tracks was the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee interurban line, which ran into Chicago over the elevated system. When the North Shore was abandoned in 1963, the main reason for these extra tracks vanished. I think they were used occasionally for a time after 1963, but they certainly haven't been utilized for years. The only reason that all the ties, tie plates and rails are still sitting there is that the CTA doesn't want to go to the trouble of salvaging it all.
It seems to me it's a liability to the CTA to leave all that rotting track structure up there. Pieces of cross ties, spikes, fishplates could fall to the street and kill someone. Or it could catch fire.
First ime I rode the North Side L or was even in Chi. was July l961, was on a North Shore train. I may be proven wrong, that's fine...but IIRC even then the outer tracks along that 4 track stretch look like they hadn't been used for some time..but as you say they possibly could be used in emergency.
My guess would be that the routing of trains thru the State St. Subway [that previously would have gone over the L ] made the outer tracks superfluous. [???]
On the subject of a crash it is ironic that thru RR history operating rules provided for safe operation when rules were adhered to and it was NOT necessary to go thru supervision to run trains. A situation occurred, you'd run by applicable rules...maybe got delayed but no crash. Now there's a collision, obviously the train was not being run at restricted speed.[Everyone makes mistakes...one at the wrong time can be fatal].
BTW that signal system is CTA's most modern. Replaced "dark" or unsignalled operation on that stretch and on most of the original els. The subways there had wayside Automatic Block Signals.
24 hours of news reporting and not one definitive report of what malfunctions the Brown Line train was operating with or what permissions were granted from Control. CTA President Frank Kruesi did admit his 6 mph statement was in error...now says number should be 15 mph, but didn't say if that was speed of train or speed at impact. The cars involved weren't damaged and actually coupled.
Two more telling accounts were printed in the Saturday Tribune. Two masonry workers on the scafolding at the church said the TO was looking at them, and not at the tracks ahead. A rider in the front car was also quoted as saying he saw the Purple Line train "a block ahead" and braced himself when he realized impact was seconds away.
It was practice a few years ago due to overcrowding that after Fullerton, southbound TOs would redress their cab door to the old motorman's cab configuration, allowing public access to the left side of the full width cab as the door controls on that side of the train weren't needed until the train circuited the Loop and arrived back at Fullerton NB.
The difficulties of putting together accounts from non-knowledgable news reporters. There might be a press conference at 1 pm CDT.
David Harrison
Here's that story from the Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0108040193aug04.story
Talk about a bad week for the CTA.
I was out near O'Hare when I heard about the accident on 780 AM. Unfortuntely, I no longer have internet access during the day, so I wasn't able to post a message to SubTalk until now.
According to the news report, the Brown Line operator had notified control moments before the crash that his train was experiencing mechanical difficulties. As David Harrison mentioned, the train was operating in a mode that overrode the cab signalling system. The trains did not derail, but the impact caused them to couple together. Apparently the trains were not damaged in the accident. Both trains have been removed from service and both operators were relieved of duty pending an investigation.
The circumstances of this crash -- one train rear-ending another on a curve -- are eerily similar to those of the famous Loop wreck in the 1970's in which three cars of a train plunged to the street below.
Chicago Tribune: CTA Trains Collide, Dozens Injured
Also this morning:
COMMUTER TRAIN: 1
SPORT-UTILITY VEHICLE: 0
Around the same time as the "L" incident, an inbound Metra train on the Union Pacific Northwest Line was going about 40 MPH when it struck an SUV. The driver of the SUV had gone around the crossing gates and had tried to beat the train. The train won.
The force of the impact tossed the SUV through the crossing gates and a nearby telephone pole. Needless to say, the driver was killed instantly. There were no injuries on the train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yesterday(the day of the collision) I was working the Red line(Howard/Dan-Ryan). At 9:15 AM when I arrived southbound at Belmont, the motorman of the Purple line(Evanston) and the supervisor were evacuating the train, with platform announcments that there was no Brown(Ravenswood) or Purple line service to the Loop. I than attempted to make announcments on my train, but the PA wasn't working, but the automated announcments were.(worth every penny of $5.4 million). After the platform was relativitly empty, I proceeded to Wellington where there were I estimate about 50 passengers waiting. For those not familar, the Red line does not stop at Wellington, being that the platform is on the outside track, while the Red line is on the inside of a 4 track mainline. I stopped my train, and informed the riders there was no service to the Loop, and to walk 2 blocks north to Belmont. At Diversey, also on the outside track, there was already a Brown line train already evacuating. I had no clue to what was going on until I got to end of the line at 95th St. where I went upstairs and it was already on the television. I later found out who the operator was, and for obvious reasons will not give it out, nor give my opinion to who was at fault, that's for the geniuses at the National Transportation Safety Board to decide, nor will I give you my opinion on how automatic block signals are far superior to cab signals. I just thank God that it wasn't worse, to my co-workers of the responsibility we have, and not take the job so lackadaisical.
I guess that must have been a 3 hour trip to 95th Street for you. I suppose all the passengers took the Halsted, State, Clark, and Broadway buses to the Loop.
Is anyone else getting the SirCam virus in their email from the above address?
-Hank
Bo, but how are you getting the virus? Are you opening an attachment?
Of course not. It's attached to the email, and very obvious. VirusScan catches it, as will any other competent and up-to-date VS program. Considering who I work for, it would be kinda embarassing to open a known virus email. This particular one spreads by looking for email addresses on web pages in the users cache. So anyone who posted with their email address would likely be getting the email. Funny thing about it is that it's going to my Hotmail account, which I only use for POP mail access from the web.
-Hank
Can somebody pleeeeeeeease explain to me the purpose
of having a dedicated Grand-B'way/Lafayette shuttle
when the 21/Queensbridge to B'way/Lafayette could be
extented to Grand St? Why is necessary to have to
transfer to go 1 station stop? This makes noooooo
sense what so ever. Obviously, the 6th Av shuttle is a
good idea to supplement local "F" service on the lower
end below 34th st, but why was it terminated at
B'way/Laffalot(pun intended) instead of going all the
way to Grand St? This would have helped reduced
confusion on an already confused system. Great idea blockheads.
__________________________________________________
This question has been asked a few dozen times here already. It might pay to search the archives before insulting people.
It would be possible to combine the two shuttles, but due to switch placement, the timing would be pretty sensitive. In particular, all service in both directions from B-L (inclusive) to Grand and back would be operating on the single southbound track. That means that once one train enters B-L, the next train can't enter B-L until the first one goes down to Grand, returns to B-L, and switches over to the northbound track.
>>>It might pay to search the archives before insulting people.<<<
I don't think he was trying to insult us. I believe he was trying to insult the TA. Albeit incorrectly, at least in this case.
Peace,
ANDEE
Insults are insults. They're usually out of place, especially from someone who hasn't done his homework.
I think the shuttles could be combined. It would be slightly tricky but it could be done. I would still like to learn why it's not being done. But I say this after having studied the track maps, so I am aware of (at least some of) the issues it would entail. Notice, too, that I'm not hurling insults at anyone.
>>>>Insults are insults. They're usually out of place, especially from someone who hasn't done his homework. <<<
Agreed.
Peace,
ANDEE
I realize the Sixth Av. Shuttle is a full length train, but the Grand Street Shuttle is only four cars. So I suppose that's also part of the problem as well, sending so many full length trains to Grand Street, then the operator has to walk a full train length to get back in the cab of the last car to leave the station going back uptown. I'm sure turn arounds are easier when you're on a non-revenue track.
But maybe during off-peak hours the two trains can be combined, when there isn't the pressure of another shuttle behind you maybe waiting to come into Grand Street to turn around.
Craig
^
Question... do the T/O's and the C/R's interchange positions in NYC at all on any line?
In Toronto, when a train switches direction, the T/O becomes the C/R and the C/R becomes the T/O. The trains are six cars long and the C/R always sits at the forward end of the fifth car, so that means only two car lengths to walk into position. This allows the train to leave the terminal pretty fast at rush hour.
Unlike Toronto, where everyone is qualified as a TO, our CRs are not. Only TOs can operate the train and only CRs can work the doors (except in OPTO situations, where there is no CR at all). On most lines, the crews 'drop back' upon arrival at the terminal: they do not take out the same train they brought in. This way, upon arrival at a terminal, the TO dumps the train, another crew boards it and can theoretically leave in under a minute.
But maybe during off-peak hours the two trains can be combined, when there isn't the pressure of another shuttle behind you maybe waiting to come into Grand Street to turn around.
What two trains? The two shuttles, QB and Grand St?
Here's what I think:
First of all, the two shuttles are different, in terms of what cars are used. The QB shuttle uses R32 Brightliners. The Grand St shuttle uses a 4-cars set of R46s. Second, the trains are on two different tracks at Bway-Lafayette. That can't work. Unless you have, like 45-minute headways and signal tower workers awake doing all the track switching, it may not work.
That's just my opinion...
CWalNYC
Not a problem at all. Just station an extra T/O at Broadway-Lafayette. As a southbound shuttle pulls in, he boards the last car and gets ready for his tour of duty. At Grand, he takes over. The old T/O gets off at B-L and walks to the other end of the platform while waiting for the next train to arrive.
The shuttle ran like this in 1986-88, but the trains ran on 12-15 minute headways/ Today's shuttle runs much more frequently because of the 63rd. St. line, which wasn't open then. This means more people are riding the shuttle and those headways are unacceptable. I love it when a TA plan comes together.
I believe the current shuttles are running at 12-minute (minimum) headways.
Hmmm, why? More frequent service would be warranted ...
Actually, I was wrong. For a very brief period there are ten-minute headways. Still, the single-track component should, in real life, take less than ten minutes to traverse. If a train gets stuck at Grand, subsequent trains could turn at B-L rather than delaying service.
No can do under the present signal system. Should a train be at Grand St. on B3 track (as was the case back in 1986 when the R27/30 flat wheel shuttle operated from 57/6 to Grand St.), there is no reverse signaling for a wrong rail move back to Bway-Lafayette. The next signal that train will encounter is the one at the north end of Bway Lafayette on B3 track. So, if a train has a problem at Grand St. on B3 track, the next train can not come into Bway-Lafayette because once that train leaves Grand St., a collision course is being set up.
It would be possible to combine the two shuttles, but due to switch placement, the timing would be pretty sensitive.
This has been a real puzzler for me for a long time now. Something I never fully understood was why they have not installed a scissors crossover just north of Grand St. and another one on the Broadway line at Canal St. That way you have a dedicated two-track terminal with a simple relay for either B'way or 6th Av. trains when one side of the Bridge or the other is closed.
Frankly, I'd have liked to see the Orange shuttle run Queensbridge to 2nd Ave. to get people used to that station being a terminal for 6th Ave. local trains, and either the B or the D running express down the dash, terminating at W. 4th. This keeps the shuttle on the local tracks the whole way down and the B or D on the expresses the entire time. If a switch were ever to be installed at Grand, run the B or D to Grand instead of W. 4th.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
>Something I never fully understood was why they have not installed a scissors crossover just north of Grand St. and another one on the Broadway line at Canal St. That way you have a dedicated two-track terminal with a simple relay for either B'way or 6th Av. trains when one side of the Bridge or the other is closed.
There are columns there, and they probably don't want to go through the trouble of removing them, shifting the support of the ceiling, and of course, the money this would cost. At Canal, they don't want to bother having a service that just goes express and ends there, when both regular Bway lines (Astoria and Queens Blvd) are already served by tunnel/local trains (63rd St. is usually served by 6th Av., so it is not needed for that either)
To put the answer in plain English (sorry David G.) there are no switches between Bway-Lafayette and Grand Street so there is no way to take a train on the SB track and send it back on the NB track. The nearest switch is north of Bway-Lafayette and that is a single SB to NB switch. Try moving trains effeciently using that.
Will they install new switches? Maybe, but by the time it is: proposed, approved, funded, sent for bid, approval of bids, and work commenced - it will be 2004 and the MB project will be just about finished.
Next time you call anyone a blockhead get your facts straight.
They did it just to confuse you and the Chinese population that live and/or work in that area of Chinatown. There is no technical reason why they can't run the shuttle all the way down from Queensbridge to Grand St.
I mean, this is the sort of anti-TA BS you were looking to hear, right?
And Mr. Conductor would be the first person to bitch and moan when one of the 21st St. to Grand St, shuttles has any kind of problem at Bway Lafayette or Grand St. and you are on the next train which has to be held outside Bway Lafayette because of the single track operation. And guess what? Since your train is late thru the single track operation, the next train is delayed. And it goes on and on and on. I am qualified to make the following statement: Why? Because I worked the 57/6 to Grand St. shuttle back in 1986(?) and this was the #1 operational problem with it! At least with the current set up, if a train at Bway Lafayette blocks the single track, you can turn a train at W.4th back north and keep a regularity of service. I think the current set up works very well, thank you!............And I am getting sick and tired of reading the same question over and over again from SubTalk rookies!!!!!!
At least with the current set up, if a train at Bway Lafayette blocks the single track, you can turn a train at W.4th back north and keep a regularity of service.
Really?
If a train gets stuck at Grand, turn following trains at B-L, as is done now. That's easy enough.
If a train gets stuck at B-L, there's a problem in either case, since the crossover north of B-L doesn't allow southbound trains to reach the northbound track, and trains can't turn at W4 without running express either from or to 34th (the crossover between express tracks is north of the local-express crossovers). The shuttle would have to turn at 2nd Avenue (or, I suppose, Canal or WTC) until the problem is cleared up. But this is a problem regardless of whether the shuttle is supposed to terminate at Grand or at B-L.
Thanks for the insight, anyway.
No, the shuttle would end up doing as I did on Thursday: train arrives on 3 Track, dumps. TO charges opposite end, operates northbound over switch to 4 Track, dumps at 10 Car Reverse marker. Switchman charges south end, pulls train into W.4 St on 4 Track, dumps. Road TO charges north end, operates over switch to 2 Track and proceeds uptown on the local.
Ouch. Is that really faster than running through to 2nd Avenue? What happened that forced you to go through all that?
There was a test train on 3 track at Grand St, creating an absolute block from south of W.4 St.
A test train? As in R-143? What on earth was it doing there, on a dead-end track?
If a train travels to Grand St. via B3 track, the following train is not allowed to relay on B3 track at Bway Lafayette because an "absolute block" is in effect beginning at the homeball protecting the switch which crosses a train from B3 to B4 all the way to Grand St. An "absolute block" is defined as a given stretch of track on which only 1 train is allowed. This is because when the train at Grand St. operates wrong rail on B3 toward Bway-Lafayette, there is no signal protection. Now if the TA wants to spend the money to put reverse signaling in, the circumstances would now be different
True. So send trains to 2nd Avenue (or wherever else) via the local tracks until the problem is cleared up.
That would be the proper move.
Now that we're on the same track (sorry) -- it looks like a combined shuttle would be easily doable, with the one caveat that if there's a problem between B-L and Grand (which would suspend service to Grand in any case), trains would temporarily turn at 2nd (or Canal or WTC). So why isn't it done?
Probably because the 2nd Av. tracks might not be back in service yet, after the switch replacement, and whatever other work they were doing over there.
True, but Canal and WTC are still options. (That might cause some minor rush hour chaos, but even that could be alleviated by sending an occasional A or C to Brooklyn via Rutgers, clearing up space for the shuttle to turn.) Not ideal, but it's not like this sort of thing happens all the time.
Once the V starts up, 2nd Avenue will certainly be ready. Officially, alternate trains could turn at Grand and still fit into the minimum possible headways there, and if something goes wrong at Grand, all V's would turn at 2nd until the problem is cleared up.
There would appear to be no real technical reason why they could not combine the two shuttles. It would mean using a single track between Bway-Lafayette and Grand St because of the switch configuration. The round trip time between Bway-Lafayette and Grand St is 5 minutes. Add a generous 5 minutes to turn the train around at Grand St. The minimum shuttle frequency is 12 minutes. This leaves 2 minutes to spare.
The situation will change in November, when the 63rd St connector is completed. The V will have 6 minute rush hour headways. They will not be able to turn the V at Grand St. They could run half the V's to Grand and the other half to 2nd Ave. This would give them the 12 minute headway needed for single track operation.
The current 6th Ave./63rd St. shuttle runs on a 10 minute headway during the day, which would make single tracking through Broadway/Lafayette almost impossible. Even when this was done in the late 1980's with 12 minute headways, delays were common. I distinctly remember one train of R27's dying at Grand St. in 1986, and service to Grand St. was non-existant for hours. I had to leave the system with a block ticket and re-enter at the Bowery Station.
The current 6th Ave./63rd St. shuttle runs on a 10 minute headway during the day...
According to the schedule on the MTA website, the shuttle leaves 21st St at: 7:59; 8:11; 8:24; 8:35 and 8:59 for an average interval of 12 minutes. At midday it runs every 12 minutes starting at 11:12.
1.There's no crossover befor Grand street
2.The only reason the 6th avenue shuttle is there because the MTA can't close Lexington avenue,Roosevelt Island and 21street Queensbridge.
3.I don't think the MTA are blockheads.
4.If the TA wanted to confuse us there would be a hell of alot more shuttle trains.
(by the way,I left out the M in TA purposely)
"TA" and "MTA" refer to different entities.
SubTalk like you've never seen!
-Dan
:)
I should block that site from acccessing my server right now. Heh.
[BEFORE]: I should block that site from acccessing my server right now. Heh
[AFTER]:Murdock should block that darn site from acccessing Mr.T server right now. This milk better not have no sleepin' powder or nothin' in it. Heh. Murdock... is this your chicken?
LoL.
Too funny. :-)
That was very creative.LOL
Nice Job!
Chuck Greene
Heeping praise upon the wrong folks. You should see what it does to some more serious sites.
-Hank
Very funny. But, be warned I would not click and download on any of the links they add to the altered postings. Unknown entity and all. Be careful. If 'ya know what I mean.
Peace,
ANDEE
The links seem to be wav files (sound files, probably a recording of Mr. T actually saying something), but I didn't try clicking them so I don't know.
Yes, they seem to be .WAV files but I refuse to take ANY chances. If you know what I Mean.
Peace,
ANDEE
I checked 'em, they're safe ... seem to be snippets of "A train" ... errrr ... "team" ... whutchootalkin'bout Willis?
Thx, u can never b sure
Wav files?
Your media player will open, and if they're not really waves, they loading will fail. You can't get a virus from a wave file.
It's not "Watchootalkinbout Willis. That was Gary Coleman on Diffrent Strokes. MR. T was "Watchootalkinbout fool". It's easy to get mixed up. (Remember the time Gary Coleman (Arnold) tried to be Mr. T ?)
Gary Coleman-- Railfan -- I wonder where he is now
He still drives a HUMMER and last sighted as a security guard. Not kidding ...
I did have them straight (for once) and that was exactly the "inside joke" I was trying to play. Thanks for being the FIRST to notice it! :)
WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD IS THIS?? SOME FAKE ASS COPY OF SUBTALK?
It's a "Harlem", "Boston's South end", "E street" version of subtalk.
Poor Mister T ... first hawking a cheesy long distance company and now this ... wowsers. :)
WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD IS THIS?? SOME FAKE ASS COPY OF SUBTALK?
SubTalk is subleasing office space from Clinton in Harlem. Certain concessions had to be made.
Fool! Chump! Heh.
Why do porridge birds lay their eggs in the air?
Peace.
ANDEE
Actually the exact question (from an interview I did years ago with Proctor and Bergman on WNEW) is "Why does the porridge bird lay HIS egg in the air?" ... needless to say, felt like a real dummy when they corrected me. :)
hehe
LMAO!!! Pure comedy ...
I spent almost a week in Toronto and I may just have a new favorite subway. I'm just looking at things from a tourist's point of view, now, and I have to say I have no idea how well the system serves the needs of the people of Toronto who use it to get to work every day. Also, since there is only one model of car in the two main line so of the system, some railfans may not like the lack of variety, but I enjoyed my rides nonetheless.
That said, The Bombardier T1 cars have a lot of charm to them. Their classic simple design makes no concessions to moderninty, but at the same time, they look like they were made yesterday. The pale silver color of the brushed stainless steel and the old-fashioned red-and white TTC logo makes them look like a new Lionel passenger train set just opened on a Christmas morning long before I was born. The railfan seat faces backward, which I didn't like at first, but after I got used to sitting sideways, I got a really good view with my face right against the glass.
The stations on the Bloor-Danforth line weren't fancy. In fact, they were downright drab in the style of the 1960s public school cafeteria. But I like them anyway because with nothing more than paint and cleaning products they have kept them looking like new and shiny. It showed me that clean sttractive stations aren't out of reach for any system. SEPTA stations could look this good with a little effort. What's more, most stations are very well lit which makes it easier to take picture. On the same line, my favorite station was Old Mill, an elevated station, one of few in the whole system. It's over a steep valley, next to a pretty steel bridge. East of down town, the line crosses another deep valley with nice views between Castle Frank and Broadview stations.
The Yonge-Spadina line has some newer looking stations, especially on the northern parts of its two branches. This line is fun because it dips underground and comes up above ground often, breaking up the monotony. All the stations in the system are covered, even those that are above ground. The Davisville station is a great place to take pictures becuase there is a small trainyard right there, as is TTC's offices. A pedestrian bridge just south of the station offers great views and photo ops. The main Wilson yard is on the Spadina branch of the line, south of the northern terminal at Downsview. This yard is harder to photograph, though, because it's farther from any stations.
The area around Sheppard station on the Yonge branch of the line is a booming area with lots of high rises and more under construction. It's been called a second downtown, and a new subway line is under construction running east from there under Sheppard avenue.
I also rode the Scarborough Rapid Transit. It is a cute little elevated line, smaller than a heavy subway, but feeling more like a subway than light rail. It ran four-car trains with gallery seating, and power came through a third rail as in a heavy line.
I had a great time riding the streetcars and a GM fishbowl, but lots has already been said about them, so I'll just say I can't wait to go back.
Mark
The rolling stock is more varied than it seems. In addtion to T1s on both lines there are H5s on Yonge-University-Spadina and H4s (these days only one or two trains make it out during rush hours due to a surplus of T1s that will exist until the Sheppard line opens next year) and H6s on the Bloor-Danforth line.
Also, the subway cars aren't made out of stainless steel, but have aluminum panels on top of a steel frame. The aluminum body panels can look deceptively like stainless steel. The other main yard, in addition to Wilson, is located a little southwest of Greenwood station and they quite often have a variety of work cars parked outside.
-Robert King
I thought the color of those trains was too light to be steel, much more like aluminum, but I'd never heard of subway cars being made of aluminium. I guess my first hunch was right.
Is the Sheppard subway that close to completion? What's the target opening date? I'll try to plan my next trip for sometime after that so I can ride it.
All London Underground cars are now made of Aluminium as are many main line sets.
Simon
Swindon UK
The Sheppard Subway is scheduled to open in the summer of 2002 (barring any problems).
The TTC embraced aluminum as the material of choice for subway car bodies early on. The original subway cars, the Gloucsters, were made out of steel and ended up weighing 40% more than anybody expected leading to an experimental group of six Gloucster cars to have aluminum replacing steel for the body panels to see how much of a weight and performance improvement there would be. The improvements in terms of weight reduction and lower maintainance (no need to paint them) led the TTC to specify aluminum for all post-Gloucster subway cars.
With respect to your earlier comments about the T1s looking like they were made yesterday, they were. The oldest T1s were made in 1996 and the last ones are expected to arrive from Thunder Bay this September, hence their new appearance. Their basic design is the result of continuous evolution from the original 75' design of the Montrealer cars from 1962 which is why the T1's appearance is very similar to the M1's appearance which could possibly make them look old compared the newest rolling stock elsewhere like the R142 in New York. This is also why you might not have noticed the other classes of subway car out on the TTC's subway lines if you have the luck of catching a train of T1s every time because outwardly they all look quite similar, however the visual appearance of the interiors in terms of colour selection, use of wood trim if applicable, etc. are quite different although the basic design/layout of the interior is quite similar between car types.
-Robert King
Where is Naporano Scrap Yard? Photos of Redbirds and R30s and such are in the Scrapyards section of this site. I suspect it is near the NJ ports. I know of one major scrap metal processor in Port Newark called NIMCO Scrap Metal. They have a very large operation down there. Will this be one of the places the Redbirds will go?
-Dan
1.Is it possible to build a double level elevated line on 2nd avenue and if so,how long will it take and will it impact the enviroment?
2.Is it possible to build tracks to connect with the 6 at worth street?
3.Does the Brooklyn IRT or Brooklyn for the matter need anoher subway line?
4.Is it possile to build an elevated terminal at Water street and Peal?
5.Can the MTA use a BMT to build a tunnel connecting Staten Island with Manhatthan without messing up the enviroment?
6.For an elevated line to stop at the already Grand street station,where will the tunnel portal have to be ?
7.Does the 2 and 5 lines in the Bronx need another subway line?
8.How much will it cost to build all of these?
9.How long will the enviromental hearings be?
10.How lon will it take to build all of these without "messing up" the New York skyline?
10.How long will it take to build the Second avenue line without messing up the enviroment?
I see the Q part of the subject but where is the A part?
1) I may be wrong, but I thought it was going to be underground, not elevated
3) What does this have to do with the 2nd avenue (manhattan) line? Brooklyn doesn't "need" another line, but areas that get subways tend to grow faster, so putting in another one, say from Coney Island to Canarsie (imagine extending the L train to Coney Island) would provide subway service to a large area that doesn't have it already. Just my opinion
5) I think this question was asked in an earlier post (a few days ago). I think the answer was something like yes, but it'd take many years.
7) Could you clarify this question
8) $1.99 plus tax
9) The environmental hearings are tomorrow, and construction begins bright and early Sunday morning.
10) I'd say about 3 weeks.
(answers 8, 9, and 10 are not meant seriously)
You are wrong,Brooklyn does need more subways. A Flatbush ave line,Utica ave line, Crosstown line[via the LIRR]Styvesant ave subway linking to the Utica line,aline from Houston st to williamsburg Flushing ave to Downtown. A direct connection to Jamaica from downtown Brooklyn via Fulton st IND connection to Jamaica EL at Bway East NY.
You are wrong,Brooklyn does need more subways. A Flatbush ave line,Utica ave line, Crosstown line[via the LIRR]Styvesant ave subway linking to the Utica line,aline from Houston st to williamsburg Flushing ave to Downtown. A direct connection to Jamaica from downtown Brooklyn via Fulton st IND connection to Jamaica EL at Bway East NY. A Lower Manhattan connection between the stubend local at World Trade Center and the Court st IND STATION of the Fulton st line[and or the Cortlandt st station]this would remove the C trains from merging with A trains in fact killing those pain in the ass headways.
Here's a follow-up question.....Instead of just running the 2nd ave subway along the 6 line in the Bronx, what about making it a "cross bronx" line and have it connect with all the Bronx lines, terminating somewhere near Woodlawn?
Sound GREAT to me. But, the again I'm biased.
Peace,
ANDEE
resident of woodlawn
Would it go up first, and then across (up maybe along the 4 line, and then go across bronx to hit the D, 2/5, 6)...
or, would it go along the 6 line, and then go across to Woodlawn
Either way, it sounds like a long route
I was actually thinking the reverse and oops!!! i almost forgot it would have to hit Van Cortlandt Park to get the 1. Long, but a connection to every line in the Bronx. Mybe keep it completely underground and build transfers like 161 st from the D to the 4.
This is conceptually similar to the 125th Street crosstown I proposed, only a bit further north. I'd be happy to see either one, although I think 125th Street has the greater need.
I assert that the costs of constructing a 125th Street cross-town line far outweigh any benefits.
The main purpose for building such a line is to provide Upper West Side residents with access to Midtown East, and Upper East Side residents with access to Midtown West. For the purposes of this message, I use Upper East Side to mean East Harlem, and Upper West to include everything from the Morningside Heights to Inwood. Both Upper East and Upper West Side riders already have direct access to downtown.
A 125th Street cross-town subway would indeed accomplish this goal. An uptown commuter on one side could now reach the opposing side of midtown with only one or two transfers.
However, my main argument against constructing such a line is that there already is a two (or three) seat ride to the opposing side of midtown. It's called the crosstown-IRT and the Times Square-GCT shuttle.
I feel strongly that transit funds should be dedicated to introducing service into new or undeserved areas before we start duplicating existing service.
There is the argument that uptown residents have no convenient subway access to the opposing side of uptown, but no ridership study has ever indicated that this is a commuter pattern relatively in need of mass-transit relief. It's simply not possible or practical to provide direct subway service for everyone to every other point in the city.
Due to the high cost of subway construction, service should remain dedicated to covering the most popular commuter routes. Other forms of rapid-transit, such as cross-town busses, will have to do for the less popular commuter routes until the cost of subway construction comes down. At a billion dollars and a life lost per mile of tunneling (engineering rule of thumb), I wouldn't hold my breath,
MATT-2AV
Also that 125 Street crosstown line/ shuttle would have to have special tunneling for earthquakes. Cause with that fault would cause havoc on that line if a minor quake were to happen. SO it would be even more expensive to do that process. But a 125 crosstown shuttle would do alot. It would take crowds off of the 2 line.
A 125th Street crosstown line would have three primary (related) functions: northwest-to-southeast access, access to the 2nd Avenue line at all from the West Side, and a full crosstown line north of 42nd Street.
The first point is easily missed by those who have never tried to make such a commute, but look at your friendly subway map. With the one exception of the Broadway BMT, which doesn't run north of 60th Street in Manhattan, none of the north-south lines on the West Side penetrate east of Sixth Avenue until Houston Street. Traffic from the northeast to the southwest has a number of options: the 2/3 runs from the central Bronx to Lenox Avenue and then west again to Broadway and 7th Avenue; the 63rd Street line connects passengers from 63rd and Lex to 6th Avenue and is planned to carry trains directly from 2nd Avenue to 7th Avenue and Broadway; the N/R/W connect the 4/5/6 to Broadway; the E/F connect the 6 to Broadway. About ten years ago, I lived on the Upper West Side (as I do now) and had a summer job at NYU Medical Center; the ride consisted of 3-4 short train rides with one particularly annoying transfer, and that only got me as far as 33rd and Park. If I had lived on the Upper East Side and worked, say, at the Javits Center, I would have gotten by with only one transfer, from the 6 to the E. The problem is no different further north on the 1/9: from all the way up at Van Cortlandt Park, the only additional transfer point is at 168th Street to the A/C, which isn't of much assistance.
Let's consider the proposed route of the 2nd Avenue line. It would come in from the Bronx and run down (surprise) 2nd Avenue. One branch would continue down 2nd, merging, perhaps, with a line from Queens; the other would run across 63rd, perhaps becoming our now-familiar Q. Except at 63rd, none of the existing crosstown links north of 14th -- N/R/W, E/F, S, 7 -- will offer transfers to the new line. Without a "back door" entry at 125th, the only access from the northwest to the southeast on 2nd Avenue will be south to 42nd, back north, east, and north again along 63rd to the first stop north of 63rd on 2nd, and then "up and over" to the southbound side again. The long walk to NYU Medical Center would be shortened, but walking from the 6 at Park would still be faster than going three miles out of my way. (Granted, a link at 125th would take me almost four miles out of my way, but it would be only one transfer away, and it would be a clear gain for anyone north of 125th to begin with.) With only the proposed connections, the 2nd Avenue line would be effectively useless to anyone trying to reach 2nd Avenue in Midtown from the northwest.
I don't know where you get your idea that there is no need for improvements to crosstown service. The M79 and M86 recently started running artics, yet they often fill up to near-capacity at their first stops, even off-peak. Between large crowds waiting to board at each stop and heavy traffic, it sometimes takes over 30 minutes to reach Lex from Broadway -- and that's with the help of the (usually speedy) park transverses. (It's actually faster at times to ride the subway down to 42nd, across, and back up, despite the intense crowds at 42nd.) A number of bus routes run across 125th, but, like those further south, they all fill up and move slowly.
In your own words, you "feel strongly that transit funds should be dedicated to introducing service into new or undeserved areas before we start duplicating existing service." What existing service would a 125th Street crosstown duplicate? Like the M15 on 2nd Avenue, the bus is inadequate; even moreso than the 4/5/6 on Lex, the 42nd Street shuttle is just plain out of reach for those up north.
1. It is possible but every body would oppose it from here to kingdom come. It would take 2 years to 4 years to complete.
2. No, because the Second Avenue Line will use B division cars and all stations along the lexington Avenue line below 42 Street is built for IRT specs so B division cars will not fit.
3. Yeah to Starrett City.
4. Yes, it would, but again people would fight it from here to kingdom come.
5. Yes, newer technologies makes the process very enviornmentally friendly. So impact to the enviornment will be small.
6. There can be no portal. No place to put it.
7. No
8. Cost of building a second avenue line is anywhere b/t 15 and 20 billion dollars.
9. Few months
10. Unknown cause people will delay it, and other unknown reasons.
9. Few months
A few months?? Which major transportation project in recent memory has had only a few months of environmental hearings? (Maybe it would take only a few months for NIMBYs and influential opposition members to kill the project, but certainly that's not enough time if you expect the thing to pass the environmental studies and get built.)
Redbird Injures Young Child
Link To Newsday Article 08/03/01
http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/drag803.htm
That's like blaming the gun for shooting someone.
Its not the train, its the conductor.
They test the train crews for drugs - have they ever tested their vision?
I find it difficult to accept that a conductor looking out of the window and observing the platform (or looking in the TV monitors where they are mounted) can miss someone caught in a door unless they aren't looking or they can't see beyond the end of their nose.
For my friends here who are conductors, please forgive me but this is a valid observation.
BAD REDBIRD BAD!!!! (Or redhorse?)
Today, It's our continuing saga of 2001: A Train Odyssey.
I hadn't planned on this topic for today's column. In fact, I was all set to
write about living life on call. However, last night's journey into the
unknown was truly that, the unknown.
By the ruling of a Federal Arbitrator, we are now allowed to have unassigned
inter-divisional runs. An interdivisional run is one that carries a single
crew across two or more crew districts without stopping for a crew change,
just one crew handles it all the way through.
We do this periodically on intermodal trains in and out of Chicago. They
decide it is time to try it again and again, although it never seems to work
to their satisfaction. We run through Champaign without stopping and take
the train all the way to Centralia. There are agreements to allow Champaign
crews to be involved here to "recapture" mileage. That is, to work some of
the trips so as not be shut out here. In fact, they actually operate more of
the trains than the Chicago crews as more of the mileage run is on the
Champaign Sub.
Previously through arbitration awards and Federal mandates of Congress,
interdivisional or ID runs have been around for years. Railroads like the
BNSF (former ATSF) have been using them on virtually all runs between
Chicago and Kansas City for years. Crew change points of Chillicothe, IL and
Marceline, MO were eliminated and crews now operate out of Fort Madison, IA
east to Chicago or west to Kansas City.
The previous ID awards and mandates required that such runs be assigned.
This means that they are regular jobs with regular crews, not just operated
out of the pool of first in and first out. The IC and now CNIC wanted that
changed for years. Thanks to a recent arbitrator's ruling, they got their
wish. They company now has the opportunity to have unassigned ID runs. Didn'
t take long for a Republican administration to again make its presence felt
against labor.
So last night, I was awarded the opportunity to get the first such run. I
received the call to take a grain train from Chicago to Decatur. Prior to
the arbitrator's ruling, we would take the train from Chicago to Champaign,
change crews there and the Champaign crew take it to Decatur via Mattoon, IL
and the connection to the Peoria Sub taking the train north to Decatur. Or,
we would go via the Gilman Sub and hand the train over to a crew at Clinton,
IL and they would proceed to Mt Pulaski, IL and make a left turn onto the
Peoria Sub and head south the Decatur. Now, we would go all the way through
to Decatur via the Gilman Sub using the connection at Mt Pulaski.
It sounds oh so simple right? Now remember, this is the railroad. The very
industry that can take routine tasks and turn them into spectacular feats.
We were ordered for 1900 hours on a TG86061-01. Something new here, the
letter T. As close as we can figure, the T must be for turn back home as
that was what we were told we would do. Of course, they failed to mention
this little aspect to me when they called, not that I would have trusted
them anyway. Remember what happened to us on July 4th when we supposed to be
cabbed home?
I arrive at Homewood about 1845 and see my Conductor is already there and
looking into the computer for our train symbol. He tells me that we will be
cabbed home. Oh ya, like I really believe that one.
1900 hours rolls around and we have no paperwork in the fax machine. The
CNIC recently adopted the CN and GT system of bulletins called TGBO or
Tabular General Bulletin Orders. This is akin to the General Orders we
previously used, Conrail's Bulletin Orders and Norfolk Southern's Train
Dispatcher Bulletin but with a twist, each General Bulletin Order (GBO) on
the TGBO has a specific number attached to it. Instead of just being an item
or line number, it is assigned a permanent number for as long as that item
is in effect. For example, on the Chicago Sub there is a speed restriction
of 60 mph for passenger and 40 mph for freight between milepost 59 and 63.
It is assigned GBO number 1634. As long as it is in effect in this manner,
it will always be GBO 1634. If it is to be voided or cancelled to a train,
another GBO is issued canceling that GBO. This harkens us back to the old
train order system where a train order was issued to annul another train
order.
Okay, now back to our story.
There are no TGBO's in the special fax machine used only for transmitting
TGBO's to trains. Like the old clearance card and train order system, each
train is issued its own set of TGBO's. The TGBO's are designed for the route
of each particular train. This uncomplicates our lives quite a bit, as we
don't get speed restrictions and other bulletins and information that are
not relevant to our particular train. Each TGBO will have a number assigned
to it, a date, the issuing location and the train symbol to which it is
addressed.
Now, there is a blanket form used for trains that will only operate over a
designated portion of track such as only trackage within the Chicago
Terminal or Champaign Terminal. These forms are called Daily Operating
Bulletins or DOB's. Normally road switchers and short locals will get DOB's.
They have a blanket address such as "Chicago Terminal DOB DOB No 1743", the
time and date effective.
These two forms are very different in that through trains are not supposed
to use DOB's as they are issued TGBO's. Okay, got all this? There will be a
quiz later so concentrate.
Again, back to our story. Snidely Whiplash has the beautiful Nell tied to
the tracks while Dudley Do Right enjoys tea with Inspector Fenwick.. No
wait, wrong story. I guess I've digressed so much that I almost forgot what
I was here for.
So we have no TGBO's and nobody seem to know how to generate them to us.
Apparently nobody has entered this new train and route into the system. So
after numerous phone calls begging and pleading for our required papers, we
are getting nowhere rather quickly.
"We must see your papers. You cannot leave without your papers!"
The powers that be seem to be totally helpless at this point. Nobody
anywhere seems to be able to assist us in our endeavor to get our papers. So
a compromise plan is worked out. We will take a set of DOB's to get us
across the terminal. "They" will attempt to correct the lost TGBO situation
and have them ready for us upon our return to Markham as we attempt to take
the train south and out of the Chicago Terminal. This is plan A and as we
all know, "Plan A never had a chance anyway."
It seems that our train is sitting up in Chicago at the Cermak Control
Point. This is just west of 21st Street where Amtrak and Norfolk Southern's
Chicago Line cross the Freeport East Sub, formerly known as the Bridgeport
District. We will need our papers to get past "Checkpoint Cermak" and all
the other locations between there and Markham and out as far south as
Stuenkel. Milepost 31.6. So with DOB's in hand, or pocket as they get pretty
nasty if you constantly hold them, we board the Midwest Railroad
Transportation cab and head to Cermak departing Markham at 1945.
Our arrival at Cermak is at 2035. We board the train and I proceed to
inspect the power while Charlie checks for handbrakes. Upon completion of my
pre-trip walk around and setting up shop in the cab, I notify Chicago North
we are ready to proceed. We depart Cermak at 2053 with engines IC 1031 and
1027 (two SD70's) and 72 loads, no empties for 9250 tons an 4446 feet of
train.
We roll along on track two down to 67th Street and stop at the stop signal
there. It seems that Markham is suffering from an acute lack of space and
trains are everywhere. There is a 338 train on track one at Kensington short
on time and no room for him at the Markham Inn. Amtrak 392 is coming and has
to use track number two between Kensington and 67th Street, the cross over
there to track one. There is also Amtrak 59 in the picture although he is
late out of Union Station and isn't a major factor at the second.
In the meantime, "They" are debating whether to turn us loose or hold us for
59 who is now just out of the depot, but a ways behind us as he has to
thread through a considerable amount of 10 mph track to get onto the Chicago
Sub. It is finally decided to run us first. This after a seventeen minute
wait. Here we go again.
As we pass Harvey, the north end of Markham Yard, there is a flurry of
activity with an extra switcher pulling the autos that inbound 281 set out
at Highlawn to connect with outbound 184. The MIT job is working at Harvey,
325 is waiting for everything to clear so he can head north. I almost
forgot, 281's power is following us back from Kensignton as he returns from
delivering the rest of his autos to the NS at Calumet Yard. NS 317 is now
also in the picture as he calls for the signal at 95th Street to enter the
Chicago Sub there.
I have an approach signal at block signal 220.57. As I approach the signal
at 222.11, I cannot see any aspect displayed at all. This is a two-unit
signal meaning there are two separate units that display signals as it is
the distant signal governing the signal at the Homewood control point. None
of them are illuminated. So, I reduce to restricted speed before passing.
This is a tricky area as the track bends a couple of times between here and
Homewood. There are trains parked everywhere and I observe several markers
flashing. With the bends in the track, we get all sorts of optical illusions
here, so I use all sorts of care and caution. I should also mention that I
was restricted speed tested in this area about three weeks ago as well.
Passed with flying colors.
We arrive at the Homewood Amtrak platform at 2220 after being told the
Trainmaster will bring our TGBO's to us there. While waiting for him to
board, 59 pulls in along side of us at the Homewood station and boards the
passengers waiting to head to points south. Chicago North calls and tells us
we will follow 59 south. But wait, the plot thickens. We now hear 184
doubling up and preparing to leave. He is laden with intermodal and the
autos from 281.
As I revue the TGBO's just handed to me I discover a serious problem; the
portion we need to operate on the Chicago Sub south of Stuenkel is missing.
It is not even issued. All we have are the Gilman and Peoria Sub portions
and the heading only shows those as being issued to our train, no Chicago
Sub included. Hmm, being that as it may (and it probably isn't) this
officially means we can't get there from here. I immediately notify "Car 22"
the radio title for this particular Trainmaster, that he must get on the
phone and call those "They" folks and tell them we have no Chicago Sub
portion.
"We have no papers!" Can't tell I like those old spy movies can you?
Finally, Car 22 heads over to Network Operations at Homewood and gets a
couple of photocopies of the desk 2 back up copy TGBO. He makes copies and
has the lovely Jennifer working desk 2 (Chicago South) to endorse that these
TGBO's are being issued to our train over her signature. As this is a master
copy, it has GBO's for every portion of the railroad desk 2 dispatches. I
have to go through it to discern what does and does not apply to our train.
With that handled we finally depart Homewood at 2240.
At last, off to the races. We raced towards Peotone as I heard 184 calling
to depart Markham. I am now playing Dispatcher of the mind and trying to
project where 184 will be allowed to run around us. I am guessing Gar Creek
siding on Kankakee's far south side. We are running on clear signals so I'm
thinking my guess is pretty sound. Just as I get comfortable with my logic,
the real world reaches up and bites me in the posterior.
"CNIC Chicago South to the 1031 over." Uh oh, I just know this is not going
to be good.
"IC 1031 south over."
"Can you get stopped at South Peotone between the signals on the main track
over?"
Now, do I pretend I didn't hear that and keep racing along at 60 mph and
then ask the night guy that has just taken over to repeat that? Or do I
ignore him altogether just for a couple of moments so as to reach that point
of no return where I will not be able to stop safely short of South Peotone?
I can always use the excuse that I was whistling the closely spaced
crossings at Peotone, so I could not be distracted.
"Uh, ya, if you really want me too, over." Am I an idiot or what?
So I immediately begin to slow the train and start bringing it to a stop at
South Peotone. As I am down to about 14 mph and sinking fast, the signal at
South Peotone changes from a stop signal to a clear signal.
"Now what the hell is this all about?" I mutter out loud.
I reach over to ring him up when he calls me and tells me to keep going as
we have been delayed enough already.
No wonder I drink!
So now I get to start working on them again. We accelerate from about 8 mph
back towards track speed.
As I roll towards Kankakee, I spot an approach signal at block signal 52.5,
the approach to KX the south end of Kankakee Siding and also the crossing of
NS's Kankakee Secondary. It then hits me that we are already catching up to
397 who had come out at Matteson off the EJ&E and followed 59 out of
Stuenkel. As I prepare to begin reducing speed to be ready to stop at KX,
the signal pops up clear. Cool, he cleared the block!
I slow for the 30 mph through Kankakee and begin to resume speed when the
tail end of the train clears the Kankakee River Bridge. We have three 40 mph
speed restrictions ahead of us between here and Gilman and 397 gains some
ground on us as I never see anything worse than an advance approach signal
until North Gilman. We get an approach there and I hear some conversation
from 554, the Clinton-Gilman local doing some work over the radio. Chicago
South converses with him to see what sort of work he has at Gilman.
In the meantime, 184 is catching us as I slow to stop at Gilman. 397 has met
398 at Rt. 24 south of town at Gilman. As many of you may recall from past
posts, this is the world's greatest railroad parking lot. We roll to a stop
at 0015 and wait for the local to do his work. Yes, nothing like single
track at a strategic location where trains stop to do work, interchanges are
affected to and from the TP&W, this same TP&W crosses the Chicago Sub and
the Gilman Sub diverges.
184 is given permission to pass the stop signal at North Gilman and closes
up ranks behind us. There are now three, count 'em three trains stopped. And
then I hear the TPW calling also looking to get across and then come around
to pick up the cars 184 will set out for him. Railroading in the 21st
century, it gets no better than this.
Finally, 554 clears up and releases his track warrant on the Gilman Sub. We
get one and proceed at 0051. We wind through the 10 mph connection to the
Gilman Sub, get all straight and take off. But not without problems. I
observe a block signal up ahead a bit pumping from clear to approach. It is
clear when I go past it, but as we approach signal 89.9 at the north end of
Thawville, I see it pumping from clear to restricted proceed with a lunar
light. This lunar light is very important. There is a spring switch at the
north end of Thawville Siding. If that lunar light does not illuminate when
the signal drops to restricted proceed, I would have to stop before passing
the switch. Charlie would have to get out and then go hand operate the
switch. Instead, I can proceed without stopping at restricted speed. This
could very easily be a test if that lunar light is not illuminated. They
weed watchers could be setting a trap to see if we respond to the rules
correctly. Being the lunar light is illuminating, I cautiously figure it is
not a test, but still do not let my guard down.
We get back on the clear at the south end of Thawville and take off again.
As we roll on I see another approach signal only this one is not pumping. It
is just an approach. I drop the throttle gradually using the ruling grade at
Roberts to slow the train as I pass signal 94.7. We come over the hill and
around the corner and I can clearly see the next signal at 96.9 is clear.
Hmm, perhaps the bulb in the clear aspect is burned out completely. So as
not to have a completely dark signal, it drops to the next working aspect,
which is approach.
We roll along uneventful to Clinton where I pick up my Pilot, Wilbur
Clayton. I have not operated south of Clinton on the main track in over four
years. Federal law and company rules require that I have a pilot ride with
me if I have not operated over a track segment in over a year. A pilot is an
employee assigned to a train when the Conductor or Engineer or both are not
familiar with the rules or physical characteristics of the railroad over
which the train is to be operated.
We exchange greetings and necessary information and take off again. We
arrived at Mt Pulaski, the station where we will enter the Peoria Sub and
exit the Gilman Sub for the final leg of the trip to Decatur. I have never
operated over the Peoria Sub and will get a pilot here for that leg of the
trip.
As I am pulling the train to a stop at the switch that leads us to the
Peoria District, I hear RDC-09 a turn around job that works between Mt
Pulaski and Decatur on the radio. The Engineer and Conductor are conversing
about motive power problems. I then hear him tell the Peoria Sub Dispatcher
that he has an engine down and is about to stall on Warranceburg Hill. This
is the ruling grade between Mt Pulaski and Decatur and has spoiled many the
trip I am told. Yet another delay.
RDC-09 has to wind up doubling the hill and taking his train to Decatur in
two pieces. For the return trip though, he grabs some road power lying over
at Decatur to bring with him and assist. Being that the Peoria District is
dark (non-signaled) it is controlled by track warrant control. Without
cabooses there are no provisions for flag protection to the rear of your
train. The track warrant issued in non-signaled territory essentially
creates an absolute block in which no other train can enter without proper
provisions on the track warrant. So we sit and wait for a total of 28
minutes.
When RDC-09 has the tail end of train south of Milepost 62 at Latham, we are
given a track warrant to that point. We start around the wye onto the Peoria
Sub and pick up the new pilot Ronnie Lord AKA "R Lord." I've known Ronnie
pretty well for quite some time so at least will have a good time while we
sit and wait even more. I stopped the train around milepost 60 instead of
62 like the track warrant allowed. The hill into Warranceburg likes to eat
heavy tonnage trains for snacks. We do not wish to have the same peril
befall us and stall. Even though I have good power, it is very humid and the
rail is wet. We don't desire any more of a struggle than necessary. And for
as well as this trip has gone thus far, why invite trouble? Is seems to be
finding us quite nicely on its own.
After a 40 minute wait, we get another track warrant to proceed to Decatur.
Ronnie tells me to get right after them when we start pulling again. I did
and they ran pretty well, I did get a very healthy 40 out of them before we
got into the meat and potatoes of the grade. With good power we only dropped
to about 18 mph at the peak of the grade.
We finally arrived at Decatur at 0540, yarded the train and tied up the
power. The Illini Limo was waiting for us and we indeed headed back home.
They actually got us home like they said on the first try.
It was bound to happen sooner or later.
Our tie up at Markham occurred at 1030 and that as they say, is that.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001
As recording to SEPTA's website. Route 101 would run buses from Smedley park to Bowling Green. Now I never knew there was a stop called Smedley Park! Is there a stop on the 101 called Smedley Park? And why it's not on the 101 Route map?
I'm not real sure, but I've passed Smedley Park on the 101 line on my ride to Media. As to the location, it's I think between Springfield Mall & Pine Ridge. It's just a little flag stop. If they truncate the trolley line between the two points mentioned, do they strand a trolley in Media so it runs back and forth between the end of the line in Media & Bowling Green? Where does the bus pick you up near Smedley Park???
Chuck Greene
idk where it would pick people up at that stop. BUT it's that there's some work going on that they have to close it down from 7 AM to 7 PM on August 12.
The 101 used to terminate at Bowling Green (Providence Rd, end of private R/W) when State St was closed for any reason. State St often does close for fairs, festivals, etc. Buses usually provide the service from there, using Baltimore Pike to reach Orange St in Media. In days gone by, many of the State St closures involved one of the old center door cars providing replacement service as a single shuttle, meeting regular trips at Bowling Green.
Smedley Park is the park between the Paper Mill Rd and Pine Ridge stops, west of Springfield Mall. I don't think there was ever a stop officially called Smedley Park, although I do recall Paper Mill Rd having this as a secondary name since it's near a trail through the park.
Thanks alot! Now just to let everybody know on what buses would be use on the 101 SHUTTLE would be serve by 30 Foot ElDorados from Red Arrow.
The most logical choice for the bus shuttle would be one of the ElDorados, since there is a large group of them assigned to the Victory Depot (Red Arrow). Since the remainder of 101 west of Bowling Green is less than a mile, the 30' bus should suffice for the 'crowds'.
I think just 2 ElDorados for the 101 SHUTTLE. One for use on 101 SHUTTLE. The other is back up for that bus(Like the Driver have to go to LUNCH,Bus broke down,stuff like that).
What SEPTA could have done was to run the SHUTTLE All the way to Ornage St in Media instead of haveing to waste a TROLLEY for the remender of the line.
And Red Arrow don't uses ElDorados on Sundays too much. The 114 and 305 happin to run ElDorados on Sundays. And could pop up on 110 on Sundays as well.
At least haveing some ElDorados that stay in the yard on Sundays is OK. BUT at least these buses are at least are going to be in good use!
And Sunday riderdhip levels must be LOW I think.
So they will have a trolley from Bowling Green (Providence Rd.)to the end of the end of the line. I guess that trolley is stranded and can never make it back to the 69th st. yard?
Chuck Greene
The work starts at 7:00 AM on the dot! And ends at 7:00 PM on the dot! So a TROLLEY would be stranded from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM next sunday. So idk why SEPTA done that to stranded a TROLLEY from Bowing Green to Ornage St. When they could extend the 101 SHUTTLE to Ornage St instead of Bowing Green witch seems a better idea then haveing to stranded a TROLLEY.
Who ever in SEPTA did this idea should get a whip on their back!!
It would seem a lot easier to run the bus all the way down to Orange
St. Don't forget, the street the trolley runs on is very narrow, so the bus would have to use Baltimore Pike and some other streets to
tun around and head back to Smedley Park (Paper Mill Road).
That's the nice thing about the trolley, it runs down the middle of the street and changes ends right there.
Chuck Greene
I think the ElDorados could run on State St without a problem. The ElDorados are NARROW With. At the most the ElDorados are 96" With so it could handle State St in Meida without any problems.
At Ornage St. it should go down Ornage St to Baltmore Pike, Baltmore Pike to Jackson St, Jackson St to State St,Then normal 101 Route.
The other bus that are 96" with are Neoplan AN440's. I think a 40 Foot bus would have a problem turning onto the streets from State St.
I wounder if the 110 ever ran on State St when they have to close down Baltmore Pike?
And also they have enough speed to keep up with cars.
this should be in bustalk
I think the ElDorados could run on State St without a problem. The ElDorados are NARROW With. At the most the ElDorados are 96" With so it could handle State St in Media without any problems.
At Ornage St. it should go down Ornage St to Baltmore Pike, Baltmore Pike to Jackson St, Jackson St to State St,Then normal 101 Route.
The other bus that are 96" with are Neoplan AN440's. I think a 40 Foot bus would have a problem turning onto the streets from State St.
I wounder if the 110 ever ran on State St when they have to close down Baltmore Pike?
Seems like the TA is getting nostalgic about old service patterns. Beighton trains ending at Times Square all this weekend. That was regular service on the Brighton Express until c.1954, when it was extended to 57th Street.
I wonder if they'll use the bells and buzzers?
Or charge 1957 fares?
Wouldn't that be a dream come true. ;-)
Yeah, but would you pay them with 1957 Dollars?
The Q is terminating at 42nd whenever the R runs through 63rd. Every weekend so far since July 22 (including July 22 itself), the Q has terminated at 42nd. Only a week ago was the public actually notified.
After getting off the Q54, I show up for work today at Metropolitan Avenue on the M line at around 8 am and noticed that there were no trains in the station, and the station was crowded. So I went into the dispatcher's office to sign on and find out what's wrong with the railroad. An M train was running 15 minutes late at Wyckoff Avenue for no apparent reason. The train finally arrives at Met, but not after losing an additional 5 minutes making the train 20 minutes late on arrival.
So there are a whole bunch of crews inside the office waiting for instructions (including myself), when the T/O walks in. This female T/O is wearing THICK glasses, and is holding a blind man's cane (yes, the one colored white with a red tip). She asks if this train is hers to go (it is), hops on it and leaves. The whole office is stunned! Needless to say, I was the next train to go so right away I knew that I was going to be right behind this "T/O" all the way down to 9th Avenue. Oh great! To make a long story short, she gets to 9th Avenue 18 minutes late and is ignoring all radio transmissions from the towers to take a skip (bypass some stops). I was ONLY 9 minutes late.
Later on, I talk to the dispatcher to see what's going on with this person. Coming northbound from Bay Parkway, the crew had a "door enabler" train. The T/O was not pressing the button so the C/R could not open up. The C/R was pleading over the PA system for her to operate the enabler (according to my C/R who was heading in to work on that train) and she kept on forgetting. They asked her to take a skip, so she did. ONE STOP.
Heading southbound, the dispatcher phoned up and asked the two line TSS's to ride with her. One rode from Myrtle to Broad. The first TSS has a conversation about the cane:
TSS: So, what's with the cane there?
T/O: Oh, I need that.
TSS: YOU NEED THAT?!?!?
The T/O again was ignoring requests over the radio to take skips and continued to destroy service. The second TSS gets on at 36th Street and forces her to take a skip.
Turns out that the T/O found the cane and was keeping it to use as a puncher. The TSS's also said that she was operating too cautiously and way too slow. They called her operation "horrible". The aftershocks went as high up as the ACTO's office. Now, Jay Street is going to be watching this T/O's operation VERY closely when she comes back to work tomorrow, and her job is now in jeopardy. Personally, this person should NOT be a T/O.
The T/O was one that came off the street and this was her 10th day out.
One funny anecdote from the dispatcher at Met:
"The passengers complained because I was playing Christmas music on Christmas Day over the PA. But someone enters a cab with thick glasses and a blind mans cane and nobody says a word."
Me? I was thinking the TA was going a little too far to be ADA compliant.
Heh. That settles it - inform Stillwell I'll be back with my handles ready to roll. :)
Make sure you bring your red tiped cane----lol
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't forget your ball peen hammer.:-)
Z-man , that's an incredible story! How could the T/A let someone
that inexperienced operate a train?
Chuck Greene
I've been asking that same question over and over again.
What the TA needs to do is make it tougher to gain your handles.
The LIRR is zero tolerance, the TA is extremely tolerant as far as training goes. It's time that the TA's training standards be raised quite a bit.
To my understanding, the TA was short of T/Os to being with, causing them to put up the "HELP WANTED" ads. Or was that just a lot of media fluff?
No, it was the Transit manipulating things to make it seem that there were no people capable of being promoted to TO. They created the shortage and this is the result.
I rode with someone fromoff the street the other day. He was very good, so not all of them are that bad. Some of the T/O that are not fro the street are just as bad as this one that you are talking about. So give these guy from off the street a brake, and let see how they do down the road. You might be suppized about them.
Robert
P.S. I know that some of you are going to be mad at me for deffending the T/O's from off the street, but I don't care.
Robert
I never meant to say that bad TOs were the result of Transit manipulating promotional tests: I meant that off-the stret TOs were the result. I personally don't care how you got there, just as long as you are actually capable of doing the job.
My feelings have always been that people should have some time in train service before actually "running"...but then as bus drivers and tower operators could previously have taken the test and become Train operators...I could stretch the tower positions to fit but busses are a different world. Yet it worked, even if equal to taking a semi-driver and making him an engineer.
There was a big song and dance in my Burlington Northern days when a section [track] foreman was put into Engineer training when many brakemen/conductors were after this highly competitive promotion.I didn't like it either as it put me another number farther away. I knew as soon as I saw the guy why he was taken...he was Mexican-American. [Had it been a few years later you can be sure a female clerk would have been taken too]. But the guy was as good an engineer as anybody else and we turned out to be friends.
There are plenty of T/O's who are more than willing to work one of their days off either every week or every other week. I am willing.
Hating to point out the obvious, but how does one become experienced without doing this for a while? While I agree that this one should be taken off the road, all of us were at one time inexperienced.
ADA compliance??? out of hand indeed. I noticed it was a "she"...has affirmative action gone this far? Somebody on the edge of blindness running trains with hundreds, or over a thousand people aboard?
First off, she should have been removed from any train operating duties the minute she entered Metropolitan Ave 20 minutes late. Considering her ignoring of direct instructions to bypass stops, she should be sent back to training school.
If there are no improvements in a reasonable time period, she should be given other duties.
I don't think they should be watching for any improvements, they should just get rid of her right away. If she was on the job for ten days, shouldn't she be getting the hang of it by now? She's a danger to the passengers and they shouldn't be allowing her to drive the train!!!!
I wonder if the DMV is allowing her to drive a car? My guess is they wouldn't let anyone in her condition have a driver's license, so why would the TA allow her to drive a train?!?!
>>I wonder if the DMV is allowing her to drive a car? My guess is they wouldn't let anyone in her condition have a driver's license, so why would the TA allow her to drive a train?!?! <<
We have drivers on the road like that, I call them CREEPS because they go so slow and slow for green lights and stop at yellow ones. Usually they are old ladies and are a cause for many missed traffic lights. And they are plentiful up here in the Northland.
This is a joke, right? Pretty scary.
I could probably walk off the street and do a better job of running the train.
The person who cleared her to operate should have their head examined.
Oh and I forgot one thing. According to the misfit Train Operator, the Yard Dispatcher at Coney Island Yard forbid her from bringing a train into, or taking a train out of CI Yard. I have no idea if this is a new policy, or if this T/O absolutely scared the pants off of the Y/D.
New policy in the B Division - probies are not allowed to operate in the yards. Of course, someone's ideas of probies are alittle off: after almost two years in title, road qualified in both divisions, I have NEVER operated a train within the confines of Coney Island Yard (or Pitkin, 174 St, ENY and Fresh Ponds - which I've never even set foot in). The only time I've operated in 207 was with a #1 train being washed.
Well, I wouldn't say that was policy in the entire B division. Probies are not allowed to work in East New York and Coney Island yards by order of the superintendents in those areas. Probies are not allowed to work in other yards when being teamed with another probie or by themselves. Yard dispatchers are given discretion when having a probie work with someone who hasn't worked in the yard for a while. The yard dispatcher will deem if the probationary feels comfortable working in the yard and if they have worked the yard before. If the Y/D has any doubts, he or she will summon a TSS to critique the T/O. Best situation is to team the probie with a veteran. Probationary T/O's are allowed to operate in yards on a put-in or lay-up trains. Jamaica yard also has a policy where if a T/O working in the yard hasn't been in the yard for more than 30 days, they must be critiqued by a TSS whether the T/O is probationary or not.
New is relative I think. My TSS said this has been in effect about a year mostly due to split switches. While road and yard posting there were at least 3 incidents that I heard of (not the off the street people).
This policy is haphazardly enforced, some T/O's could do layups at CI yard others had to leave their trains on the ladder. ENY and CI enforce it the most, ENY almost always does. One night they had so many probies on a shift they had to call for board help.
I know the T/O in this story and she does have a bad rep operating. That cane thing is something current T/O's recommended to us for using on punchs instead of a shoe paddle (I use a flashlight if I need to) and that helps if you are short. The blind cane was just a poor choice of tools.
I called up the crew office to get out of working at 207yard on Monday. I told them that I rather work the road then sit around the yard doing nothing. I can't wait untill 10/9/01, this is the first day the I am off probation, and I get a yard job and tell them that I don't remenber the moves in the yards, and I want a TSS to ride me all day.
Robert
Are you kidding, you don't like the yard? Catch up on all your sleep, reading, gossiping and complaining. If you work Jamaica yard you can BBQ untill you weigh 500 lbs.
Now my peeve is sitting the board for 6 hours then picking up a job.
BTW most of the incidents in the yards happen to the veterans out there who get sloppy and make a lot of short cuts, not the street guys who are too nervous and follow the "book" to the letter.
That story takes the cake, the candles, and the box it came in.
Blind? I would have to say that there are some things you just do not do. Now how does she operate the train if there are trackworkers making repairs on the ROW? What about a signal at danger? How about a broken rail? Fire on the tracks? A distraught person on the tracks? Maybe she really wants a job flying a 747 at night.
Would the folks who hired her give a job in an obstetrical ward to a known peeping tom? Maybe they would give Jesse James a job as a bank guard. What next?
>>ROW? What about a signal at danger? How about a broken rail? Fire on the tracks? A distraught person on the tracks? Maybe she really wants a job flying a 747 at night. <<
Well, 747's do have bright instrument panels and autopilot, besides as long as she has a co-pilot with decent vision, they'd have a 50-50 chance of making it to the ground in one piece.
If I'm not mistaken; I believe that the Americans with Disabilities Act(ADA)states that a blind person may qualify as a train operator as long as he/she has a "seeing eye" dog in the cab at all times.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Only if the seeing eye dog has its own set of handles and is qualified on the route in question.
The whole idea is scary. At BSM we refused to allow a deaf man to qualify, let alone run with an Instructor next to him. He wound up at the museum 32 miles down the road, where he was qualified and eventually caused a head-on collision.
I don't think she was really blind. As Z-man said, "Turns out that the T/O found the cane and was keeping it to use as a puncher."
- Lyle Goldman
This is just crazy. I was in the first class and from what I've have seen so far the TA has been abit more laid back with the rest of the classes after us. We were the class that had to make it or break it. So that we made it and the media isn't watching the other classes they can train them and see how they do once they get out. We had a guy in our class that sounds just like that ladies, He had thick glasses and he was always late so when they saw this in Road Posting that he just didn't have it they took him out of service. I bet my years salary that if this lady was in the first class she would not have made it
Some of your class have had their own problems, too.
I can see ZMan179 complaining about us, but you are the same as us. In fact because of problems with your class we got better instruction in yard posting not that it was that great anyway. Two of your class almost got thrown out of fire school, they were buffs which is another story.
Sorry you must be mistaken us from the 2nd class. Yes a few of the TO from the 1st class are having abit of a problem but to get toss from Fire school. Not, at least no one from the group I was in. I can't say for sure about the other groups when we went to fire school it wasn't a complete class it was broken down into groups
>>>>>>>>>Two of your class almost got thrown out of fire school, they were buffs which is another story.
The fact that they ALMOST got thrown out of fire school is grounds IMO for termination. I mean, you have to be dumb as dirt to fail that.
They just kept asking question after question. One of them resides here. We got to laugh and we got out at 1:15 which is even early by school car standards.
The guy trying to sell the disability insurance was turning colors.
Very few of us bought and I think he blamed it on the constant questions. "If you have 3 disability policies but only two of them cover preexisitng conditions and you fall ill within the one year period...".
Their class said he had calmed down but was showing off because we were there.
I like my weird knowledge too like 42st lower but am more interested in 'slick joey' stuff. I really did not care about the age of the telephone handsets in the tunnel or the % missing receivers or extinguishers.
Instead of a psych test they needed a social IQ test.
i think i know who your talking about was this a guy a older man? did he look like shaggy from scooby doo?
Both looked older but one of them reminded me of General Sherman with grey hair.
was that the thinner man or the man that was always closing his eyes? one of them didn't make it pass road posting
Not a clue, I was trying real hard not to pick up a shoe paddle and play whack-a-buff.
I resent that implication that the first class is the best. I agree that the T/O in question is not fit for duty, but not all of us street T/O's are that bad. In fact I've been hearing from a lot of the veterans that we're pretty good.
I'm not sure what class I'm in, I started 5/29/01. I can tell you we have been worked pretty hard. We've had to study hard and we're held to a pretty high standard.
So if you think you're so good because you were in the first class, I'd be willing to go toe to toe with you in a competition when I get out of school car to show you that this t/o is as good if not better than you are. And I have 3 TSS's that have worked with me that will back me up on this, including one who posts here regularly.
you are in the third or fourth class.
Listen dude all I'm saying is that alot more T/O's from the fellowing class aren't making it. I know that 10 dropout and 5 failed the signal test which is really easy. But it all goes back to the 1st test given. What was your score if you don't mind me asking? Because I don't believe it was 100 like mine. Not that I'm saying I'm better than u. But I am brighter lol Kidding. Listen best of luck on everything. And just remember this what we learn in school car is just half of what your going to need to know.
No, it was only a 97 so I guess that makes me legally retarded. But come this time next year I expect to still be running trains down the road. Best of luck to you and remember you're still "from the street" (no matter what score you brag about) as far as everyone in the TA is concerned. So us street guys should band together not knock each other down. There are enough veterans and TA brass looking to do that.
Geez Bruiser, I always figured you were kind of "special."
...are you the Eggman?
Yes, 10 dropped out but 5 of them never started on day one. One was pregnant and was not eligible for FMLA and had sked about it from day one but the UNION di not give her an answer for 2 months. One quit the first week and was never that keen on it, another went back to former title (YES they did allow that, even though they did not have to), another was on another transit list and became a radio maintainer. They let another one drop back a class because he was almost pension vested at his old job. So stop making it into something it isn't.
As for the TWO or THREE (not five) signal test failures the prevoius promotion had three and they could get one wrong. Maybe you don't know this but some of the TSS's give everyone the answers to the tests and what do you expect when they then get an exam where they don't get it up front.
We all got through posting and one is fired or being retrained. They did one of those slick moves and screwed up. The conductor dezoned coming in to the terminal and the T/O screwed up.
I remember a story out of school car I still hear to this day in which a practical joker with the black sunglasses and the blind man's cane was escorted to his cab by his conductor while bumping into poles and led into position in front of stunned passengers on his Q train before departing at Brighton Beach. Even the hearing officer laughed before handing out ten days.
I heard about that in Conductor school car. Its a very funny story.
How about T/O takes a wrong line up at 71st and the C/R gets on the PA and says 'there are significant delays ahead, instead of having you sit in the tunnel we are giving you a short your of the Jamaica train yards'.
Almost like a skit on "The Man Show" where the two stars were dressed as pilots at an airport and proceeded to get sloshed. Pretty funny seeing the reactions of passengers in the terminal. (Assuming you believe it wasn't staged.)
HEY! I'm considered legally blind! I have a cane I sometimes use at night. I'll bring it to Jay Steet and apply for the T/O job! LMFAO!
I think that should be "WREAKS havoc" - "reeks" means that she smells bad, which is usually applicable to some of the passengers.
That's what I thought, but my wife thought that I should use reeks. Some of the meanings for "reeks" are to smoke, steam or fume. Well she certainly didn't smoke up the rails with her speed.
Conan the grammarian has ruled ... "wreaks havoc" is the correct phrasing for anyone who it matters to ... I did kinda like "reeks" though ...
I got news for you z-man. The T/O in question is not fit for duty, period. It doesn't matter if she's from the street or not. No one was born a T/O in the system. It seems some of us forgot our humble beginnings!
Second, your beef is with the TA not with us open-competitive folks. We just took an exam for a civil service job that pays really well, with no knowledge of any f**kery by the TA. So if you want to complain about us "street" guys and gals why don't you bang it in to the TA brass if you have the balls to do it.
Third, I've heard that some of the veterans think we're pretty good because we are trying to the best we can because unlike a lot of "inside" people we care about the job we're doing it's not just a promotion and we want to keep it. We're here because we want to be here and we have no safety cushion of going back to our former title. And speaking for myself I take pride in my job and do my best, sorry for not being perfect.
I don't want to argue with you, but I'm getting tired of this bulls**t about "street" T/O's.
I wish you and your class continued success, Bruiser.
Mayor hopes tax will break London's traffic gridlock
I think that charging a tax to drive into central areas is an excellent idea. It's about time that motorists start paying for the pollution and congestion that they bring into the city. And the fact that all the money goes into transit system improvements will provide motorists an even better reason to leave the car at home. If only this type of forward thinking was practiced by mayors of all cities, the smog and global warming problem being experienced today could be reduced significantly.
I have always thought that Manhattan had it fairly easy when it comes to restricting traffic into downtown. There are after all only so many bridges onto the island.
Imagine:
$20.00 toll cars ($50.00 trucks) to enter between 0500 and 1100 hours
$10.00 toll cars ($30.00 trucks) to enter between 1100 and 1900 hours
no fees between 1900 and 0500
(Tolls are round trip, collected inbound only)
The bridges to brrokly and queens reserved to Buses and Taxis between 0500 and 1100 and again between 1600 and 1900.
You need more capacity into the city? I'll bet you you could close the Brookly Bridge to cars and trucks and put LRV's on it within a year with nice service to many areas of brooklyn, ande perhaps for the Willie B.
Elias
Not all of Manhattan is Midtown. Why should drivers to the residential areas of Manhattan be penalized over drivers to the residential areas of other boroughs?
"Not all of Manhattan is Midtown. Why should drivers to the residential areas of Manhattan be penalized over drivers to the residential areas of other boroughs? "
Actually I would not have intended that they would be that tightly excluded. Such details would have to be worked out by anyone wanting to look more seriously at such an option. Clearly, those who register their cars at their Manhattan residence might well have their pass embeded in their EZPass or whatever. Perhaps they would emulate Tokyo: to register the car in the city, you must prove ownership (lease or whatever) of an off-street parking place.
Clearly, I am aming at those who as commute with automobiles, and given the Manhattan limits imposed by its geography, the desires for cleaner and more people friendly spaces and access, the heavy restriction to Automobile traffic seems to be a viable option.
I'd love to explore this topic with anyone who is interested in discussing these points.
Elias
I'm not thrilled with the idea of waiving or reducing fees for residents, either. The issue is not where people live; it's to what extent they and their cars get in everyone else's way. IMO, the best approach is not to penalize but to charge people (automatically, with the help of E-ZPass) for the costs they're responsible for. Drive in midtown Manhattan all you want, but it won't be cheap.
As for off-street parking, there are many more cars parked overnight in Manhattan's residential areas than there are off-street places to put them. There's nothing wrong with on-street parking, although, really, the people who park on the street should pay for the real estate they consume.
It's a good idea - for those with loads of money . Should free up the roads nicely. I do hope the extra money is spent on better transport.
Simon
Swindon UK
Are they planning to set up a toll booth outside No. 10?
I think the government are hopefull that Ken Livingstones proposals will free up London for ministerial cars and civil servants.
Like all taxes which disregard the ability to pay, it will hit those who can least afford it.
I think people will just use their cars anyway, myself included when my car is necessary for my job, but the money, if spent wisely, should be a big help.
Simon
Swindon UK
The Mayor of London has decided that since it is too difficult to collect a toll on all persons entering the city, he will instead put tacks on all the roads going to Central London. Any car trying to enter the city will experience severe tyre damage and will have to call an overpriced flatbed tow truck.
LIRR is offering for sale 724 M-1. Equipment will be sold "AS IS" and "WHERE LOCATED BASIS".
NYCT is looking to buy 12 crance cars.
NYCT is looking to rebuild one diesel-electric locomotive.
Source: Metro Magazine Aug 2001 issue
I'm no Dave Pirmann, but thanks to some help from New York University's Taub Urban Research Center, you can now find out the facts about tax levels and spending priorities around the state, and around the country, on the internet. The address is:
http://urban.nyu.edu/research/littlefield/index.html
Sorry, but my old copy of Netscape won't turn it into a link.
Well worth looking into, I'd say. Transit and infrastructure, along with debt, are discussed in section 6.
Larry, that's the understatement of the year! This has to be one of the best Internet resources I've ever seen, bar none.
(Larry, that's the understatement of the year! This has to be one of the best Internet resources I've ever seen, bar none.)
Didn't I send you a prior thing I wrote up a few years ago? I know much more than that now -- thanks to the internet and increasing computer horsepower.
The Census Bureau put up much more detail, not only on expenditures by type but also on revenues and what they are for. So I was able to tease out local transportation expenditures net of federal and state aid, fares and tolls, and follow the intergovernmental aid and mandates for welfare and Medicaid from one level of government to another to figure out who got stuck with the bill.
Paul Matus was right -- it is no bowl of cherries in Suffolk County, although I think the data shows NYC is screwed the most. Or perhaps poor upstate counties are.
In addition to the obvious outrages, the data raises some tough questions. NYC's police spending is high -- a hard burden on the city's taxpayers -- because the size of the police force is so large relative to population. But wages are low -- the cops do deserve a raise. Do you cut the size of the force? Spend even more money and cut the schools? Fight against wage increases? Not so easy.
Spread the word. It went up today (my 40th Birthday, actually). I created the whole thing in six weeks. It took them 3 1/2 months to put it on the internet, but at least it's there.
Hey, happy birthday!
I've sent your draft paper to more than a few people. But this is more polished, and the graphics show up (I was never able to see them in the Word Perfect document).
The choices here are certainly difficult. While I tend to think that the City should not aim for parity in Police Dept. pay -- it's not a crisis yet, and the money is desperately needed for things like teacher salaries -- I don't pretend to know what the ideal compromises are. But I do know that if I were regional king I'd try to bring those bar graphs into line with other localities -- not just with the country as a whole, but with prosperous regions like Atlanta. And I would do that even if it meant a reduction in services to the poor. That's not because I begrudge the poor the extra money -- far from it -- but because I think jobs do far more to alleviate poverty than government programs do. And I confess to being troubled too that we pay white commuters high wages to do jobs that could go to City residents who would find them admirable . . .
Who are the "we" in "we pay", and could you explain what you meant in writing that "...And I confess to being troubled too that we pay white commuters high wages to do jobs that could go to City residents who would find them admirable . . ."
(But I do know that if I were regional king I'd try to bring those bar graphs into line with other localities -- not just with the country
as a whole, but with prosperous regions like Atlanta.)
Those areas get a much better deal from the Federal Government than we do (see the Medicaid Match graph in chapter I).
(And I would do that even if it meant a reduction in services to the poor.)
At this point, very little money is going to the poor. It is going to Medicaid, which for the most part is no longer a program for the poor. The actual poor aren't getting much in NYC. Not even an education for their kids. It's very upsetting.
Larry, I'm not out to make work for you, but can't you hand code in the message window: Interesting Tax Page, which produces Interesting Tax Page.
Just got off the line with Salaam and since I misplaced his phone number I kind of felt like a moron, but I got some real good news. He will be shooting the Sea Beach when he does his railfan trip this October. Actually it was the #1 and #9 that he was going to concentrate on, which should make South Ferry elated, but decided also to shoot the N train as well. It occurred to me that except for Salaam I not sure of how many of us reside in California. If you do, let me know on this line. I'd love to know how many of us reside in the Golden State.
yea he gave me a buzz we talked about the pasadena blue line construction subways the orange empire museum & my fall trip to nyc to shoot the N train & many others !! there is a life outside of nyc !!
I posted on the Straphanger Site I wanna see what people think here so
What would you do if you were in the first car of a train (lets say a D train going into rockerfeller center) and you heard that scary emergency brake sound and when you looked out the small litte window you quickly realized that your train was going hit a B train sitting in the station.
Would you panic?
Would you pray?
Would you run towards the end of the car?
Would you tell everyone to kiss their butts goodbye?
Would you scream at the people to head towards the back for the car?
Or would you stand there and accept that fate?
Now if I was there my face would grow pale, and then I would run towards the back of the car screaming that we're going to hit another train and to hang on for dear life.
I'd open the motorman cab dorr, slap the motorman and yell at him for not seeing the train in front of him. Well, actually, like a lotta people, act stupid and panic!
CWalNYC
In all seriousness -
I would just shrug my shoulders, say "Oh well, shit happens"
and let it happen.
If I'm still alive after impact, then I'll find a way out.
No, I'm not bragging or trying to appear macho.
The simple fact is if I was in a situation like that, there would be absolutely nothing I could do to stop it from happening, so why go nuts?
I suggest that you move because the T/O is going to come flying out of that cab like a bat out of hell.
Heh. I was going to say something along those lines since the first issue was a railfan at the window - but I decided not to knowing the "bail from the cab" thing we all got taught.
If you're going to have any chance, the first thing you do is kiss the floor, feet to the storm door and hope it holds when the anticlimbers crunch ... and what I would have said was, get out of the way so you don't trip the MM. :)
I WOULD SCREAM LIKE A STRAIGHT BITCH AND RUN FOR THE END OF THE CAR!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I think this is the right answer, with or without the screaming, not hitting the deck and just hoping.
When a NICTD (nee South Shore) commuter train ran into a steel truck some years back, people in the front of the first car, including the motorman (engineer?), ran like hell as far back as they could before collision. Considering the scale of damage done by a steel roll to the car -- it was ripped wide open and the front half of the car was utterly mangled -- the three deaths that occurred were a lot less than one would expect. Of course, it was real early in the morning and there were few passengers aboard so people in the front COULD run back. Not much chance of that on a crowded rush-hour train.
First of all wouldn't the emergency brake stop the train in time, and if it doesn't wouldn't the train have been automatically stopped by a trip arm before. The odds of your situation happening are quite slim, of course we all understand the G/R accident on Queens Blvd a few years ago and the great Williamsburg Bridge J/M accident.
ALL OF THE ABOVE AS WELL AS HIT THE DECK!!!
I would pry the side doors open and run to the next subway station and alert a TA employee.
See the post from "D4000 Cruiser" for my answer.
Using my super-depth-perception powers and knowledge of the braking capabilities of the equipment I'm riding on, I would run to the exact spot in the car where I would suffer an obvious but not permanently disabling injury.
Than I would have my lawyer sue the MTA for $1,000,000,001.50.
Then I would have my lawyer sue the MTA for $1,000,000,001.50.
$1.50?
I shouldn't get my fare back?
( Thanks, Peter, I needed a straight man ) ;-)
This wouldn't apply on the D. But if the car had a real railfan window, I'd pull out my camera and take a quick picture or two.
At the precise moment of impact, I would jup up in the air, while all of the car crashes around me, and then land unharmed after the wreck.
(or else something else would happen)
Elias
Hit the deck and hope it's a very bad dream.
I know, I know, enough about the R142s. But I was amazed to see how many of them were running..and in some weird combinations, too!
6611-6615 together with 6476-6480...yes, that's right, 6476-6480!
I've seen that somewhere...maybe IN THE YARD!
Yeah, there were, count them, like 12 of them! 12 R142 trainsets! BTW, Correct me if I'm wrong, I think I saw #6616-6625. Can I get that confirmed via e-mail?
I think there were like 20 R142As on the 6 line.
Saw 7446-7455 on the 6.
CWalNYC
Also 7466-70 is at 239 YD I seen it this morning.
After the R142's where taken off the road half of the day last Fiday and all day Saturday they are coming back strong. The problem it had is now fixed.
What was the problem? Don't tell me...did they have BRAKE PROBLEMS like the Bombardier R142s or was it a different problem?
CWalNYC
carlwal@hotmail.com
loose screw in the body carriage on the bombardiers. kawasaki has every other defect coming in and out. their newest one is doors unlatching to open. one door would open and the other one would get jammed. recently happened with the bombardiers but it wasn't vast.
the reason the R-142's on the 2 are all mixed up is because one half of the in order sets had defects. for example earlier in the week, on set 6315-20, there traction motor went bad. they took it off to fix it and split up the sets with other sets. also weeks before, 6307, the fan in the a/c was running loud with comotion. it was taken off and fixed. the same thing happened with 6588 but it wasn't as bad. that was fixed also.
true
I believe it is 13 R142s and 21 R142As in service.
it is and more coming
It's official. According to my local newspaper, the big open lot at Jay and York is proposed for a major luxury redevelopment. It will probably fill up with lawyers with a high sense of entitlement.
Forget about tunneling under the street next to it to build a Rutgers-DeKalb connection once it's up, regardless of how well the fix takes on the Manhattan Bridge. Would a few thousand new residents of Fulton Ferry count for more than the 1.5 million who rely on the bridge for subway service? Of course! This is New York, where the current interests of a few on the inside always trump the future interests of the vast majority.
Once they're in, they'll start agitating to get the trains off the bridge, moralizing about the "environment." Had they BUILT the connection, you probably could have closed the bridge at night and still had decent service through two tunnels. But NOOOOOOO.
I'll consider showing up to testify against it if family conditions permit, but the whole thing was designed to go through before Giuliani/Vallone leave office, and a lot of contributions were made. It's probably a done deal.
But the bridge is going to last forever. Why do we need a tunnel?
Unbelievable.
The Brooklyn Bridge can no longer allow trucks to use it, because of weight problems that were mentioned in the news media. Let something happen to the Manhattan Bridge, and then the stuff will hit the fan.
The Brooklyn Bridge can no longer allow trucks to use it
That's another whole can of worms I've never heard explained. The Bridge used to handle the considerable axle loadings of elevated trains, now they argue that a large SUV might break it.
The Brooklyn Bridge is a parkway.
I think we should have at least one parkway crossing of the East River.
SUVs should be banned from parkways.
Not the issue.
...SUVs should be banned from Parkways...
That would certainly send the SUV's increasing popularity trend to a screeching halt.
Hey...
I plan I getting a SUV..one of those medium sized ones.
take it to 59th st bridge then go downtown...
forget the manhattan, brooklyn or willy b.. damn rust buckets.
I concur that SUV's should be banned from parkways. Their popularity is disturbing. They have very poor fuel economy, create more dangerous driving conditions for everyone else, and drive up the cost of fuel. With the high gas prices these days you'd think SUV's would be on the decline, but it's totally the opposite.
Historians often refer to the 80s as the "me" decade but I think things have gotten much worse now.
Also the hands free law is in effect but if I had a dollar for everytime I saw a woman driving her SUV while on the cellphone (why do women like things so big, their cars, their men??) I'd be able to buy a monthly Metrocard.
I wonder are SUV's so popular in other countries? If not then why? Lemme guess this has something to do with Americans loving their BIG FANCY cars?
I'd be willing to bet that the 00's (pronounced "uh-ohs") will go down as the "screw you" decade. And by the end of the decade, the havily armed recreational vehicle will be king. Sorry, just needed to be said. If you think it's bad around the city and its nearby breeding colonies, you ought to see the ratio of those things to road skates up here near Smallbany ...
SUV's are cool except when you are in a car, at night and there is one behind you. HEADLIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pain.
Personally I think an SUV is a waste as it offers not more in capacity than most sedans. Status symbols sadly are a way of life.
I do feel light trucks are to a lot of people a vehicle of choice. I drive a van because I need hauling capacity at times so it offers me a truck and sort-of family car together. It isn't fancy. If you restrict "trucks" even if some people don't refer to a van as a truck you run everything from mini-pickups to cowboy Cadillacs [big, chrome laden pickups], vans which in some cases are made into mini-busses, minivans, SUV's off roads that people with the same purpose as those driving sedans use them for. The term truck can be well-stretched.
"Americans love big fancy cars"...anyone remember those cute Falcons, Valiants, Chevy II etc back in the early 60's? Nice little comfortable cars,easy on gas, easy to park...after about 4 years they started growing and then later production stopped. They didn't go over well, Then later people went for small imports for fuel economy and said American firms wouldn't build small cars...they did but he majority didn't accept them.
Look at homes: what had been the American dream is now a starter home or a rental property in some areas. Now those who can afford want 3000 square feet before they even have kids.Three car garage [normally used to store more STUFF]; land, room for horses...gimme a break.
>>>Also the hands free law is in effect ...<<<
The hands free law is not effective until November.
Peace,
ANDEE
That explains why I saw a LI Bus driver on his cell phone today.
The Bridge used to handle the considerable axle loadings of elevated trains, now they argue that a large SUV might break it.
The Brooklyn Bridge was substantially redesigned in the early 1950's. The resulting configuration can take less live load than the original. The question is not whether a single large SUV might break the bridge; the question is whether a bridge covered bumper to bumper with SUV's would be overloaded. The answer to that question is yes. An experiment of that type was perfomed in 1888; the bridge still has the scars.
1888? or you mean 1988?
No, I mean 1888. Prior to that trolley cars were banned because of weight restrictions. Trolley cars were allowed starting that year with a distance restriction between them. Within a few months there was some kind of problem and the bridge became jammed with trolley cars.
You will notice that the bridge roadway dips 5 feet at each of the towers. It was not always thus.
Umm... what they used in 1888 was considerably heavier than SUVs.
Umm... what they used in 1888 was considerably heavier than SUVs.
They used only a single lane of trolleys in 1888. The live load is 1700 lb/ft. Assume an SUV is 5000 lbs and 15 feet long. Six full lanes would be 2000 lb/ft.
Uh, there's also this clearance problem, not so much for SUV's, but for commercial trucks.
Sorry, I need to be filled in on details; did the MTA specify that the lot was necessary for construction of that project?
I don't think the point of Larry's message was that the lot would be needed to facilitate construction of a DeKalb/Rutgers connection. If I read Larry's message correctly, the point was that the lot is going to be filled by a luxury apartment building that will be occupied by people with the money/power/influence to prevent any future subway construction from happening on that block, thereby killing the whole project.
David
(I don't think the point of Larry's message was that the lot would be needed to facilitate construction of a DeKalb/Rutgers connection. If I read Larry's message correctly, the point was that the lot is going to be filled by a luxury apartment building that will be occupied by people with the money/power/influence to prevent any future subway construction from happening on that block, thereby killing the whole project.)
That was the main point. There is nothing there now. 15 years from now the area will be filled with affluent, influential yuppies -- and not just in this building. To build the connection, you'd have to wreck their quality of life. They wouldn't allow it.
I also think that lot would have been a great place to stage the construction.
I don't know how you can attribute future intentions to a group of as- yet unknown people who have yet to move in to an as-yet unbuilt building.
(I don't know how you can attribute future intentions to a group of as- yet unknown people who have yet to move in to an as-yet unbuilt building.)
No one would want such a construction project at their door. The politicians should have thought ahead and built the connection BEFORE the area redeveloped. And, I guarantee you, people WERE informed.
The area being mentioned is already being called trendy in the media and is referred to as DUMBO - for Down Under the Manhattan Bridge.
A few years ago, you could not get some characters to even look at the area, now the money to burn crowd is falling over their feet trying to get a loft there. Go figure.
Since all the yuppies can't live in Manhattan they have to live near it. This explains why parts of Williamsburg (Bedford ave on the L), DUMBO, and Long Island City are starting to become popular with the trendies. Now I know it won't be too long will we see Starbucks in those places. They even opened up one in Flushing (no suprise there as Flushing is the trendy asiatown).
And if you haven't figured it out I dispise Starbucks. No I don't drink Coffee but that's stuff is so overpriced. But mainly it's what Starbucks stands for that makes me steam. That is
one commercial development I'll oppose. No Starbucks in My Back Yard (NOSIMBY).
UUM...then what's your explanation for Starbucks on Fordham Road in the Bronx, no yuppies here!
Peace,
ANDEE
(But mainly it's what Starbucks stands for that makes me steam. That is one commercial development I'll oppose. No Starbucks in My Back Yard (NOSIMBY).)
It's amazing how so many people want to stop new businesses from opening in their neighborhood, because they seem them as markers of "those people" the way wolves mark their territory by pissing on the ground. I warps zoning regulations no end. Underneath, that's what the battle over supermarkets are about -- white trash suburban families shop in them, not the chic urbanites we want in our town! Others object to yuppies and Starbucks, others to immigrants and their bodegas.
To me, those who want to keep consumerist "yuppies" out of the neighborhood sound no different than those who want to keep bars and clubs frequented by trendy "chic urbanites" out of the neighborhood, and those who want to keep Blacks out of the neighborhood for that reason. If you want to live in a place where everyone is and lives like you, why not move to some suburb somewhere for your kind of people? Forget Brooklyn. Actually, these days forget most of the NY Metro area.
Like the people in Sunset Park & Park Slope that were opposed to an Ikea of all things, on the grounds that it would generate more traffic. Like 3rd Avenue and 4th Avenue are country roads. The anti-supermarket people always mystify me. Its like saying "I'm against large clean stores stocked with a selection of products at discounted prices". And yet these whiners often win out because they claim that supermarkets will 'hurt' local businesses. That's called competition and it's how the real world works. You think it's bad now? Wait till a mayor Ferrer/Green/Hevesi is in charge. No one will want to build anything here any more.
(You think it's bad now? Wait till a mayor Ferrer/Green/Hevesi is in charge. No one will want to build anything here any more.)
No will be able to build anything on the west side of Manhattan, perhaps, but they'll be able to do anything they want in Staten Island. It's the opposite way now.
"...No will be able to build anything on the west side of Manhattan, perhaps, but they'll be able to do anything they want in Staten Island. It's the opposite way now..."
But's that's the way it is now! We are trying to get the whole island down-zoned, but I think it's too late for that. The damage has been done. Large one-family homes are being torn down and replaced with semi-attached one and two family homes.
Which is perfectly good. Zoning is just a tool used by NIMBYs who fear encroaching development. It was created after the construction of the Equitable Building, deemed too large.
Maybe one day those houses will be replaced with row houses, and eventually with apartment buildings.
The march of development moves on.
Yeah we have an anti-big store attutude on the north shore. The result is overcrowded, out of stock supermarkets. There's not enough drug stores either. But ultra high priced chains is just fine. Great Neck has two Starbucks but only one supermarket, and it's not 24 hours.
Bleah Starbucks in Flushing..PUKE.
They tore down my Favorite Gyro place. To put that in.
Flushing is now a nutritional wasteland. Because I'm sick of Chinese food, been eating it all my life.
Now the only good decent Gyro place is Turkish and in Manhattan
on MacDougal St.
Larry, Larry, Larry. Just what lot are you talking about? The only Jay/York intersection I know of Is waaay under the bridge itself. Any use of that wouldn't be extremely helpful, and they could easily work around this minor setback. I don't know if[there were]/what [the] original infrastructure plans for the connection were, but the plans could be worked around this...
I'll go look at the interstection (i live maybe 1.5 miles from there anyways), but Last time I checked (umm, today!) that intersection was under the bridge.
(I'll go look at the interstection (i live maybe 1.5 miles from there anyways), but Last time I checked (umm, today!) that intersection was under the bridge. )
Of course it's under the bridge. The tracks would have to branch off north of DeKalb, go past that lot (and all the other gentrifying lots) underground, then hook up somewhere after York Street Station. You'd have to tear up the area to put it in.
It might be possible to change the plans and hook in before York Street, but that would require both an extra stop and tighter turns, thus slowing down trains.
There's been excavation at the site for the new proposed building at Jay/York for at least a year now. I frequent that area and always figured that the 'F' is actually to the left of the site. Wouldn't any configuration of the Rutgers-Dekalb connection have to be south of York and Jay and much closer to Dekalb? Anything done would seem to require some complex (though not impossible) threading through the maze of subway tunnels and building substructures in the area. Would it be possible to build an AC/FG to WMNRQQ connection south of Dekalb to the A/C/G/F south of Hoyt? Seems to be more ROW to work with there?
>>It might be possible to change the plans and hook in before York Street, but that would require both an extra stop and tighter turns, thus slowing down trains.<<
Ok, I understand the extra stop, but tighter turns? Let's say we build the connection so that it branches off around myrtle. It could then make a gentle turn until it reaches Flushing* and then could turn under the BQE connection to the Manh. br. After that, there's this basketball court park (It's there, I play there every sunday) that It could run under. After that, you're practically with the F train.
Again, I don't know what previous infrastructure plans were, but this new development does not stop the linking at all.
*- After Gold st, Flushing goes by a different name, which I forgot.
*- After Gold st, Flushing goes by a different name, which I forgot.
Nassau Street.
I guess this is an oppurtunity to ask:
Why doesn't Flushing Avenue actually go to Flushing?
The Q58 bus (the Flushing-Ridgewood Trolley), uses a small bit of Flushing Avenue where it connects to Grand Avenue, which explains a little, but not much.
>> Why doesn't Flushing Avenue actually go to Flushing? <<
And while we're asking... why doesn't Coney Island Avenue go to Coney Island? (If one takes CI Ave to its southern terminus, one finds oneself deposited in Brighton Beach...)
The wonders of the city...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
But Brighton Beach is part of Coney Island, the former Island, it makes sense.
Flushing Avenue would have ended in the Town of Newtown before 1898.
(Ok, I understand the extra stop, but tighter turns? Let's say we build the connection so that it branches off around myrtle.)
That depends on where the existing Gold Street interlocking plant ends. There may not be room for another switch off until later. I'm just letting you know where the MTA planned to go.
The collision between two trains on Chicago's Northwestern L this morning is not surprising. Too many motormen on that system are cowboys. Last summer, while riding the Douglas L in a so called slow zone (maximum allowable speed 15 mph) the motorman gunned it. The L structure sagged and the forward car tipped violently to the right. I remember looking down into alleys from the side windows! How we avoided going off the tracks I'll never know. Had this occurred moments later when we hit the curve near Paulina Street, I'm sure we would have.
Eric D. Smith
Well then because of that accident and this then timers will come to Chicago and like New York City, it will either be obey the speed limit or get fired. The Chicago Transit System will get alot of bad rap about this. So timers will be phased in more then likely.
I heard about those motormem.Im surprised the crash wasn't worser than it is.
This crash was only at 6 mph. The thing they haven't mentioned is whether or not the train was going that slow the whole time leading up to it, but couldn't slow down at all in time; or whether the train was going 25 and managed to slow down to 6 mph before the actual crash. Big difference
I've riden the CTA lots of times during my business trips to Chicago, and you are wrong.
This T/O is just a bad apple. Every system has a few of them.
Read lower down for the post about the blind M train T/O yesterday.
Wonder if it was the same guy who ran a l5 MPH slow zone on a Blue Line train I was on near California or Western on the former Logan Square L. Never slowed at all...ran thru it about 45 MPH.
Hmmm, it that was possible maybe the CTA should re-think the speed limit.
1.Does the Bronx need any additional subway lines and If so will an elevated line affect the enviroment?
2.Does the 5 need any express service north of 180 street and if so,is it possible to build an IND or BMT terminal with an IRT terminal without effecting 5 service orthe enviromen?
what's with all your questions about the environment? Setting up an elevated line may ruin the view of the sky for a few people, but it's not anything bad like putting a nuclear reactor in the middle of Central Park.
I love reading your posts......
1) Sure, the Bronx could use another elevated line. They could have
rehabilitated the Third Avenue El thirty years ago instead of throwing it down.
2) Are you talking about 5 Express along White Plains Road from 180th to 241st? It would not make sense. Riders along upper White Plains Road would have to change at 180th for Lexington Service if you ran the 5 Express and it only stopped at Gun Hill Road.
IND-BMT-IRT Terminal. Where? Are you suggesting that they extend the D from 205th Street?
"2) Are you talking about 5 Express along White Plains Road from 180th to 241st? It would not make sense. Riders along upper White Plains Road would have to change at 180th for Lexington Service if you ran the 5 Express and it only stopped at Gun Hill Road."
The #5 express will be a wonderful idea. Just like the D express is a wonderful idea. I wonder why this wasn't figure out before. Certain passengers have to change for the #5, SO WHAT! They do that already when they take the #2 to E.180th Street when they change for the Manhattan Bond #5 out of Dyre Avenue.
N/W Broadway Lines
I would rather take Metro North which runs a few blocks west of the upper White Plains Road line than take the 5 down to Grand Central and midtown if that was my final destination.
Which cars have been assigned to the "B","D","Q" and "W" trains now that the south side tracks of the Manhattan bridge are in use rather than the north side tracks.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
B & D has R68's...............Diamond Q has slant R40's..........Round Q has R68's..........W has R68A.........and If you care the N has everything. At least on paper (READ: not engraved in stone) 10 trains of R32's, 6 trains of slant 40's and 4 trains of R68.
Thank you for the information on the car assignments.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
N also has the R44 (or whatever the one with the electronic signs), as I have ridden an "N" with the electronic side destination.
Wrong! Unless you are speaking of the late 70s. The R-46s are strictly assigned to the E,F,G and R lines and the R-44s are assigned only to the A. Of course you might have seen a re-routed R train but this is not by design.
An R-46 trainset takes care of the Grand Street shuttle, and R-44's run on the Rockaway Park shuttle.
The last time an R46 ran on the N line, they didn't have those electronic signs. And I've never seen an R44 on anything but the A since I became a regular railfan in late 1985.
Look at SubTalk message #247146 for the current car assignments. You should never consider the car assignments set into stone because the TA has to do whatever it has to do to provide the full service compliment. R46 cars come out of Jamaica Yard for F/G/R service (and E service because I just said that these car assignments are not set into stone), and R44 cars come out of Pitkin and 207 Yards for the A and Rock Park shuttle service. With that said, I hear there was an R46 N train during a recent PM rush hour. This was done for one reason and one reason only: due to a delay in N service, an R46 trainset was borrowed from the R line.
I also rode an R68a on the the other day, borrowed from the W.
My last W trip today was on a set of R68s, so there is some play in this assignment list.
It seems the R-32s have been associated with the N in some capacity ever since they arrived from Budd in 1964-65. Not exclusively, of course, but enough to make their presence known. I still consider them to be BMT cars, believe it or not.
When headed due south from the bridge toward DeKalb, at the first opportunity a Q or W has to veer to the right, there appears to be a trackway to nowhere (as if we're veering off of a long-gone switch). I haven't seen this subject broached recently, and I was wondering if anyone could identify what exactly this is/was...
Thanks in advance.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I know what you are referring to. I don't think it was ever much of anything.
I haven't been through the area for some time (at least operating or from the front storm door) but perhaps that is a trackway that was abandoned when DeKalb ave./Gold st. interlockings were reconfigured in the 50's. Remember that old Myrtle ave. station was eliminated on the southbound side to make the current configuration possible.
I was riding south on the 2 today in the Bronx, and a train passed going north on the middle track. It was a pair of redbirds, a yellow work car with a tapered roof marked S-01, I think, and then another pair of redbirds.
What is this S-01 car? It had two oversized sliding doors in the middle, that bent up into the roof like the London tube trains....
Dave
S-01 is the Signal Dolly which delivers materials to various locations on the system. I saw S-01 heading south at 135th St-Lenox Av this afternoon. It was going home to 207th St.
There is also an S-02.
Note to Dave P: Make a notation, on Redbird Scrap Page, of the 4 Redbirds in Work Service (8600-01, 8634-35).
Can one say these are formally the first "Off The Road" Redbirds to enter work service? I wonder when are these getting the MOW paint treatment?
And what of the elderly R-22s? Gone?
-Stef
I always thought any work/money service R12 thru R22 ought to get bumped off by newer Redbirds.
That may be the case. But seriously, I believe the R-33WF Cars are supposed to be entering work service after retirement from Passenger Service. I can see new Rider Cars Coming.....
-Stef
Stef- Beat you to it, the signal dolly cars have been on the list for several days, although I hear their assignment may not be permanent.
The old horses are probably buried in the back of 207 yard. I haven't heard of them leaving the property. I saw one in the back about a month ago. They are highly unreliable. The yard dispatcher at 207 probably has permission to use redbirds as horses for this purpose. Right now he/she has a large number to chose from and were probably the first ones he/she could grab. Wonder if they will be fitted with B division trippers. Probably a temporary assignment for the A division only.
Makes sense...there was a lot of signal infrastructure work going on.
Hi,
Does anyone know if there are any other enterance/exits to street level besides the corners at 161st & River Av.? Also does anyone know what construction is going on, on the mezzanine level of the station? Thanks..........
There is an entrance on 161st a block in from the Concourse (don't remember the name of the intersecting st.). This entrance also leads to the viaduct under the Concourse. You have to be at the front of a N/B train to be near this exit/entrance. A lot of the mezzanine area has been converted to a Transit Police substation.
Peace,
ANDEE
Tonight I saw a two-car train, painted yellow, on the Manhattan-bound 7th Av. tracks. The last car's number was R718 (I'm pretty sure), and it looked like there were a lot of people on the train. What was it?
Seth
The train in question is the Revenue Collector.
In the train are the collecting agents who go to each of the Token Booths to collect the revenue and take it to Jay Street. Some collection is done with the train, while armored trucks may also be utilized.
-Stef
Isn't "R" mean "Rider car", as in seats for the work crew.
Yes, but that isn't the car number here. It's actually a 2-car train: 0R718 and 1R718.
David
"Isn't "R" mean "Rider car", as in seats for the work crew."
A rider car's designation would be "RD" followed by a three digit number.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite/nycsubwaycarsskinspics.msnw
Here's some pics of the r36 redbird #7
I'm going to explain how children get dragged in subway car doors. I'm going to explain it without even mentioning any vehicles with 8 wheels. I'm going to explain it without mentioning a door.
Yesterday, a 4 year-old child in Brooklyn shot himself in the head. He didn't find a drug dealer's gun or his brother's gun under a mattress. He took his mother's loaded 38 caliber revolver and played with it. The mother, it should be mentioned, had the gun legally. The mother, a court officer, was licensed to carry it. The mother was trained in its use and in fire-arm safety. Yet this gun was not in a locked metal box as required. The gun was not out of the reach of a 4 yearold. It was not out of his sight. It was left loaded.
The child is alive for now but in grave condition as of 4 AM. The police are investigating and a family is in shock and chaos. Not alive is another little girl who was shot and killed just 2 weeks ago when her cousin found her uncle's illegal, improperly stored pistol. Instead of being interviewed by the news media, these families are being interviewed by the police. Instead of having the TA to blame and to sue, they have only themselves to blame.
The same mentality that leaves loded firearms carelessly lying around for children to find, to use and to kill themselves is the same mentality that pushes little kids through (well I guess I need to mention it now) closing train doors. The same carelessness that allows unsupervised children to discover firearms in the house is the same mentality that lets kids play on the trains and stations, unsupervised.
The argument of a lack of door obstruction sensors may have some validity in protecting the children who's parents or gardians can't or won't. However, my granddaughters are veteran redbird riders. I have no fear about them on redbirds or any other subway car. You see, their mother, their father and their grandparents take responsibility for them and we treat them as the precious peolple they are.
End of lesson.
When the TA cannot shift responsibility, they might try to fix improperly designed equipment. The most recent example is the rash of doors opening on the wrong side and the "door enabler" response. Getting passengers caught in doors and dragging them on the platforms does provide an additional target for blame. It is a inconsistent to a assume that the same C/R who cannot determine whether or not a platform is present needs additional assistance whereas that same C/R needs no additional help to determine that door thresholds are free of passengers.
You are correct that 10 years ago the redbirds should have gotten door obstruction sensors. However, the same politicians who are now fighting each other for airtime on Eyewitness News (on this issue) are the same people who opposed funding the sensors for the redbirds 10 years ago.
There is a misconception about what door obstruction is. The technology of the time 'said' that the guard light would not clear if either door panel were not closed to within a specific distance of the centerline. A child's arm will certainly meet this criteria. However, in the act of trying to extricate ones arm, rocking the doors back and forth actually allows the guardlight to clear by shifting the 'gap' to an already closed & locked panel. The feature known as pushback then allows the obstruction to pass, undetected.
Consequently, the opposite panel closes, the guardlight clears and the train moves. With door obstruction, the sensor switch of one panel will break before the opposing door sensor makes if an obstruction is present. This prevents a guard light from clearing until the obstruction is removed, no matter how the doors are rocked. It's the same 1960s technology with a different logic applied.
As I have my 3 favorite visitors staying with me this weekend, I was distracted in writing my response to your point. The bottom line has always been that door obstruction not withstanding, if the parent or guardian takes proper precautions, pays proper attention, simply gives a damn, the children will never get caught in the doors.
Unfortunately, I have not read the earlier posts in this thread -- so this may have been discussed.
Isn't the conductor supposed to watch the platform in both directions as the train pulls out? If he is diligent in doing this, I do not understand how people are ever dragged along the platform. He should easily see it happening and stop the train. What am I missing?
Not every platform is 100% straight and straight can be just as bad as a curved platform where cctv or mirrrors are used to 'see around bends'.
Straight platforms create a problem where the conductor (myself) may be looking for a gap to close the doors- that is everyone off everyone on within as little dwell time as possible- BUT and it is a big but whilst looking for adults a child may be unseen if the conductor becomes focused on the adults at headhight.
Here in England it is still the norm for conductors to operate suburban trains from the rearmost cab although a train can be officially operated from any position except that at the head end.
Having been a conductor on both the Tube and mainline railroads a 'simple job' (my words) of opening and closing doors and giving a start signal takes 100% concentration every time.
Rob:^)
London UK
Okay, let us say for argument sake that it's your child and the conductor is inattentive. If your child were injured because you were not duly vigilant, would the conductor's negligence mitigate the pain?
It'd make the attorney feel better. :)
In my observation, people are always standing near to the train, and the conductor cannot get a clear view of the train once the doors have closed and he has give the signal. Crowds stand right up next to the train waiting now for the next. How can the conductor tell that one of these is caught in the door. This is why he must watch, he should see the comotion and stop the train if someone is being dragged. It is 300 feet from his position to either end of the train, with people standing on the platform next to the train. He can look right at you and not be able to tell that you are caught.
Think of the lifeguards down at the beach. You have to be in trouble before they will notice you and react. That is whay the conductor is looking out of the train: at this point he is a lifeguard looking for trouble. A Double check: Not the primary prevention of an incident.
Does not the indication come up when the doors are closed and locked? Or does the conductor have to also give a start command as on the LIRR.
And what in OPTO, who will watch then?
Elias
I think this is how it goes; the conductor gets indication for each half of the train then passes indication to the motorman. Once the C/R gets both indication lights he removes his key and that will pass indication to the T/O (the indication light will come on). At that point (unless it is a terminal) the T/O can take power and move. If the T/O indication light does not come on he cannot take power (with the exception of a bypass button).
Once indication is passed and there is trouble the C/R is supposed to stop the train using his emergency brake valve (not the buzzers).
Close but not quite. - This is how it goes for real. When the train is properly zoned, the conductor has a north section and a south section. The feed for the conductor's indication starts at the open ends of the train. They passes through the #27 finger of the signal light relay in each car of their respective zones until both strings reach the middle. When all doors are closed and lockes and all obstruction sensors are clear, the signal light relays make up and the C/R gets indication. At the same time, the motorman's indication is fed from B+ in the last car. It passes through every signal light relay in the train (#21 finger). When all signal light relays are made up the motorman's indication is only broken by the conductor's key switch. When the conductor gets his indication in both zones, he turns his key and that completes the circuit to the motorman's indication bulbs and the master door relay. It's the master door relay (PIR on the R-46s) that allows the train to move.
The train pulls out with you in the door. The CR sees you and stops the train . Weren't you just dragged?
Why don't people teach their kids how to handle and correctly safe weapons? I'm sure the mother taught the kid what to do if a stranger came up to them etc.
More importantly, basic firearms safety dictates that you don't load a weapon unless you intend to fire it in the foreseeable future and even then you should make sure it is safed.
Why don't people teach their kids how to handle and correctly safe weapons?
Why don't people teach their children not to be obnoxious dorks?
Sorry, I've been reading too many Train Dude posts, and expected him to post this.
For the record, I don't find "Jerkey Mike" to be an obnoxious dork in person.
Old fart Bob
Bob,I hate being upstaged....... Then again, for a person who advocates teaching gun safety to 4 year olds, your subtleties may have passed safely overhead.
My father was a licensed NRA instructor. As early as the age of 5 I was taught how to load and unload all the weapons in the house (he was a parole officer on Rikers). I was also taught to RESPECT THE WEAPON AND NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYONE!! Plus I had my cap guns to play with and NEVER an urge to play with a real one.
What am I missing, mikey? My point was that this 'mother' WAS trained in gun safety. She was told that her weapon was supposed to be kept locked on a metal box out of the reach of children. Now, unless I've missed something, she did not do this. In consequence her son found the revolver and if you believe the mother's account, the child shot himself in the head. My point was it was this same recklessness, thoughtlessness, carelessness and indifference on the part of parents that lead to subway tragedies. Now, what part of that do you disagree with?
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just emphasizing that fact that she was being doublely stupid. Lazy parenting and firearms incoptance despite safefy training.
Incoptance...Change it to 'Incopatence' and it's a word I like. Someone should trademark it before Al Sharpton uses it.
-Hank
Hey, that simple spelling mistake could turn into a whole new buzz word.
>>> basic firearms safety dictates that you don't load a weapon unless you intend to fire it in the foreseeable future <<<
That is certainly not what I learned regarding firearms. Since many police officers go through their entire career without firing their weapon in anger, I suppose under your theory they should never carry a loaded weapon.
The basic firearms safety I was taught was to consider any weapon as cocked and loaded until you personally determine it is not, and not to point a weapon at anyone you are not prepared to kill. Home defense weapons are almost always kept loaded. The real question which has to be determined individually is, is having a home defense weapon worth the risks it entails? I personally keep a weapon, but never allow children in my home. During a short period in the ‘90s when I had a friend with children staying with me, I dismantled my weapon and removed some of the operating parts from my home.
Tom
>>> basic firearms safety dictates that you don't load a weapon unless you intend to fire it in the foreseeable future <<<
That is certainly not what I learned regarding firearms. Since many police officers go through their entire career without firing their weapon in anger,
Just another instance where jersey Mike professes to be an expert in an area where he has no knowledge. What else is new?
So if you are storing your weapon where there is no possibility of it being used you should keep it loaded. Yeah, that's smart. I have always been taught that you should never leave a weapon loaded unless you absolutely need it to be. But hey, I'm just stupid old Mike. What do I know.
Firearms should never be left loaded. I was told this by a cop who also uses his arms at home for hunting. Ohio law requires that weapons in transit are unloaded. Of course, you must assume any firearm is loaded until you have personally checked that it is not -- but that doesn't mean you should delibrately leave your firearm loaded...
Now, for home defense -- you can leave the firearm loaded if you want, but you run the risk of shooting yourself when you're trying to turn the bedside light on. But then, if you want to shoot an intruder, that's the risk you run. Personally, I think it's easier just to have no money so no intruder will come to rob you.
Lexcie
Regarding home defence, how long does it take to load most hand guns? Usually a few seconds. If it really comes to the point where you don't have time to load it you're pretty much already screwed as the intruder would have to be in the room with you and Mr. quick draw sleepy time homeowner wouldn't be able to hit much anyway. Having to actually load your weapon before opening fire is a good way to avoid shooing that family member who came looking for a glass of water. Not leaving weapons loaded is like the most basic safety precaution one can take.
>>> Personally, I think it's easier just to have no money so no intruder will come to rob you. <<<
Hardly good enough in the land of Charles Manson and the Night Stalker (Ramirez).
Tom
"I have always been taught that you should never leave a weapon loaded unless you absolutely need it to be."
Mike, without being defensive or argumentative, who taught you this? Personally, I don't care if the gun is loaded or not. It is supposed to be stored in a locked metal box out of the reach of children. Not left in a purse, Not left on top of the refrigerator. Not left in a nightstand. For the record, the 4 year old that I mentioned in my initial post, has died. The news reports say the mother is grieving. She should be making her one phone call to a lawyer.
Aside from family members two rangemasters at two different shooting places I went to. It is also a pretty common sence thing to do.
>>> basic firearms safety dictates that you don't load a weapon unless you intend to fire it in the foreseeable future <<<
That is certainly not what I learned regarding firearms. Since many police officers go through their entire career without firing their weapon in anger, I suppose under your theory they should never carry a loaded weapon
Maybe civilian safety and police practice are not the same. Friends that I've had (including my father-in-law who had a collection and made his own ammo) did not keep any weapons loaded that weren't to be used soon.
MP practice at my posts was to have two loaded magazines while on duty with one in your pistol and one in your utility belt. When on a break where there were non-MP personnel (say to eat lunch) you removed the magazine from your pistol and restored it when returning to duty.
You never had a round chambered unless you had imminent need. And at the end of your duty day you discharged your pistol into a sand filled barrel. One clown I know of decided to clown around with this procedure once. He didn't end up hurting anyone else, but from what I hear, I'm not sure if Viagra would help.
Actually, from what I've heard talking to people who would like to have a pistol but haven't the training, I'd be scared to be around them knowing that they keep loaded weapons.
>>> Friends that I've had (including my father-in-law who had a collection and made his own ammo) did not keep any weapons loaded that weren't to be used soon. <<<
You are talking about the major difference between a collector and someone who may have to use a firearm such as a liquor store clerk, jewelry salesman, bank guard, or armored car guard. For the latter group, the time between knowing that you are going to use the weapon and using it is far to short to allow loading it at that time.
>>> MP practice at my posts was to have two loaded magazines while on duty with one in your pistol and one in your utility belt. <<<
The military is a special case since most of the MPs were 18 or 19 year old kids, and it could be the end of his career for any Officer in Charge who allowed a soldier to shoot a civilian. Where I was, they were not allowed to have a magazine in the pistol even while on duty, unless they were in a situation where they might have to fire. Once we were congratulating one MP for good shooting when he was able to load his .45 and bring down a fleeing burglar in the housing area with a single shot to the head in the dead of night. A daylight investigation the next day determined it was actually a ricochet from an overhead street lamp which the MP meant to be a warning shot.
In my own unit, whenever we had to carry classified material between military posts, we had to be armed. It was something of a joke though, since we were given the CO's .45 caliber pistol which none of us had qualified with, or even practiced with and a magazine of ammunition. Our instructions were not to load the magazine in the pistol. We were given absolutely no guidance about using the firearm if any one attempted to take the classified material.
Tom
Forty years ago U S Army Class A Agents and their guards had to be armed with a loaded magazine in the weapon. Both the agent and the guard had to be qualified with the sidearm in order to perform the duty. The sidearm was normally the M1911A1 "45" pistol. Agents were normally 2nd or 1st Lieutenants, and the guard was either a PFC or a Spec 4.
>>> U S Army Class A Agents and their guards had to be armed with a loaded magazine in the weapon <<<
What is a "Class A Agent"? It was forty years ago that I was in the Army, and our procedure looks like a corruption of what you described. Our unit only had one Captain and two Warrant Officers. The classified materials were schematics and diagrams for repairing guided missiles and launchers which we had to take from our location to the batteries where the missiles were. As I indicated before, we were completely untrained in the use of the M1911A1 .45 pistol, and it was two lower ranking enlisted men with one weapon (we only had one pistol, the Warrants had carbines). Even more interesting was the fact that if we were unable to solve a problem an unarmed civilian tech rep from Western Electric or Douglas would show up with much more detailed updated diagrams than we had.
Our security was very lax. I remember once making a stop at a PX on base, and leaving the material and the pistol under the seat of our unlocked truck (I was the junior man on the team). Another time we stopped at a Gasthäus for a beer and took the material in with us. I sat on the books. This was a place where we were well known, which was frequented by a number of ex Wehrmacht veterans. They had a professional interest in the pistol so we passed it (unloaded) around the table so all could inspect it.
Tom
The class A Agent was the officer who paid the enlisted men by cash each month. He was appointed by General Order, but it was his responsibility to select his guard, normally a trusted enlisted man from his own unit. In my stateside unit it normally took more than a day to find and pay all of the men on the monthly payroll. It was probably more confusing in this case, because I am speaking of a Hq & Svc Co of a Training Brigade, which was a very large payroll 65K to 85 K each month
Loaded weapons wore worn from the time the cash was picked up at Finance until the undistributed remainder was turned in. The agent and his guard were only unarmed when paying men in the stockade.
>>> The class A Agent was the officer who paid the enlisted men by cash each month. <<<
Oh yeah, now I remember. Those were the days when the pay was $67.00 a day, once a month, and some of the enlisted men were broke by the following morning.
Tom
Those were the days when the pay was $67.00 a day,
In your dreams!
Those were the days when the average pay was $93.-$110. a month.
>>> In your dreams!
Those were the days when the average pay was $93.-$110. a month. <<<
Re read my post. It was $67.00 a day, but that day only came once a month. To earn $93.00-$110.00 you had to have some rank. By the time you repaid loans from the previous month and purchased shoe polish, toothpaste, and soap from the PX, and possibly a replacement part of your uniform from the Quartermaster Store, there was not a lot left over for high living.
Tom
I'm sorry, Tom! I must have been really tired last night.
An H & S Co was all permanent party personnel so I guess that's why our pay was higher. I can't recall for sure, I think that even a Pvt E-2 got $71.00. The $67.00 must have been the RFA personnel.
The pay was a lot less in those days, but don't forget that soft drinks were a nickel, Campbell's Soup was 7 cents a can, and cigarettes were $1.50 a carton.
>>> cigarettes were $1.50 a carton. <<<
Actually the cigarettes were $1.20 per carton, which could be resold on the local economy for $5.00. We were rationed to four cartons a month. Heavy smokers could get an additional ration. Quartermaster gasoline sold for 12¢ per gallon, also rationed. The cost of gas on the local economy was about 55¢ per gallon and over 80¢ per gallon in France. In the United States at that time the cost of gasoline was about 25¢ per gallon.
At that time a local working man's monthly take home pay was about $100.00, and since our $67.00 pay did not require any deduction for rent, food or utilities, it was a pretty good time.
Tom
I put in 1972 as a base year, and that $67/mo works out to just over $275 in 2000 dollars. I made that in two weeks working in a supermarket, part-time, for slightly above minimum wage. That sucked.
-Hank
>>> $67/mo works out to just over $275 in 2000 dollars. I made that in two weeks working in a supermarket, part-time, for slightly above minimum wage. That sucked. <<<
You have to remember back then (1960) the government did not have to pay competitive wages. They could just send you a telegram and let you know you had been chosen by your friends and neighbors to do your patriotic duty.
Tom
The military is a special case since most of the MPs were 18 or 19 year old kids, and it could be the end of his career for any Officer in Charge who allowed a soldier to shoot a civilian.
Your experience with MP selection, training and maturity seems to be a little different from mine. The MP .45 is a difficult weapon and not easy to qualify with, plus MPs had to familiarize with other weapons, including shotguns, grenade launchers and machine guns, as well as qualifying on M14s (and M16s if going to 'Nam).
I wonder how many city cops ever see the diversity of duty and situations of an MP in wartime.
And are you aware that MPs must be well versed as to their role in regard to civilians? Do you know the requiements of the Posse Comitatus Act?
In my own unit, whenever we had to carry classified material between military posts, we had to be armed. It was something of a joke though, since we were given the CO's .45 caliber pistol which none of us had qualified with, or even practiced with and a magazine of ammunition. Our instructions were not to load the magazine in the pistol. We were given absolutely no guidance about using the firearm if any one attempted to take the classified material.
And you're belittling MPs experience? What was your MOS?
>>> Your experience with MP selection, training and maturity seems to be a little different from mine <<<
I have no experience with MP selection or training, but my observation of the maturity comes from sharing a mess hall with an MP company for three years, and drinking with them in certain off limits places as well as running a bar where off duty MPs hung out. Most of the lower ranking soldiers on street patrol were under twenty. This compares to a requirement in most civilian police departments that sworn officers be twenty-one. It should be noted that my sample was somewhat selective since married men with their wives on post did not frequent the mess hall or the off limits drinking places, so I was dealing with single men, or married men without their wives.
They had no jurisdiction over civilians not connected with the Army, so they generally patrolled places where GIs hung out and would respond if the German police had a situation involving an American soldier, i.e a drunken soldier or a soldier beating his German wife. The tales they told included the best places to sell black market gasoline and cigarettes, but usually emphasized beating up prisoners with the comparison of the treatment by different MPs to certain GIs known to them by name as being repeat offenders. Much of the discussion was of ways to inflict pain that would not do permanent damage or be traced back to them. Also the comparative ability of different races to sustain punishment. Not what I consider a mature view of Police Science.
Tom
This was peacetime Germany c.1960? Sure doesn't speak well for the state of the U.S. Army at that time. No wonder some muckety mucks thought a little diversion in S.E. Asia would be good training...
What I saw not that many years later was a lot different.
>>> This was peacetime Germany c.1960? Sure doesn't speak well for the state of the U.S. Army at that time. <<<
No it does not, but peacetime armies tend to be more lax than armies in a combat zone. Without excusing the MPs' conduct, it is possible to understand it, when you consider they were seeing the same drunken brawlers over and over again. A soldier would be taken to the police station, with the MPs possibly suffering bruises and minor lacerations, and the soldier's unit would be contacted to pick him up. It was then up to the soldier's commander to determine the punishment. At that time, drunkenness and fighting, as long as no one (especially civilians) was seriously hurt was treated with a "boys will be boys" attitude (alcoholism was rampant among the career veterans of WW II), so the soldier would get no more than an Article 15, and loss of his pass for a couple of weeks. The frustrated MPs seeing the same soldiers over and over again would add their own punishment to try to dissuade repeat offences.
Tom
Without excusing the MPs' conduct, it is possible to understand it, when you consider they were seeing the same drunken brawlers over and over again.
I would imagine that's pretty much true even today for regular police officers in smaller cities and towns.
Granted all your points--however.
Have you ever tried to manage a balky child--or perhaps several balky children--in a subway environment? I have. Or even well-trained cooperative children.
I have seen people do incredibly stupid--and ignorant--and rude things vis a vis their children. But subways are not a kid friendly environment--and I've seen transit personnel make things worse.
You're asking people to walk in your shoes. Other people have shoes too.
Is the moving on your transitalk site compleate?
No, It will be done late this month, we have well over 5,000 pictures to move to a brand new server plus the several pages its self to move!
Sorry for the delay, but I'm not a magician!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
So what point are you at (in percent)?
BTW how abut you have a temporary page to view moved photos?
I was woundering about the SAME THING!
Looka here son son, When you operate a site as big as TransiTALK or NYCsubway.org, then speak. It will be done when it is done, if you are a true fan of a page or something, you will have the patience to wait!
I'm not Merlin ova here!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Trevor, man, I feel your pain :-)
-Dave
I wounder how long for a BIG Site to move into a new server?
Just let me know when it's DONE!
It isn't easy to deploy a mission-critical server my friend, I've tried to master Windows 2000 Server in a course of 2 months, it was awfully hard!
I see! Must be that you have to send the files over to that program and takes a bit lond to send them over to there.
It will problay be done in late august.
I know you a rail/busfan.
Have you considered using email for your private conversation? Trevor's email address is available in every one of his posts. Sending 'TO' messages on a public board is the absolute HEIGHT of rudeness. We've been here before.
-Hank
Yeah but I don't want to catch a virus. I mean I don't know much about trevor logan he could be a computer hacker!
Are you REALLY that stupid? I could give you a virus right from this page if I wanted to. YOU CAN'T GET A VIRUS FROM EMAIL, UNLESS YOU'RE STUPID ENOUGH TO OPEN AN ATTACHMENT YOU DIDN'T EXPECT.
-Hank
Actually, you can collect a "virus" without ever opening an email if you allow what is called a "preview pane" in Outbreak Express (Microsoft's motto: "nothing spreads disease faster than outbreak express") to be enabled or you have the Windows Scripting Host enabled. Most viruses do come in the form of an attachment but if you permit "scripting" of any sort, and use Microsoft anything to view the email or a web page containing "(object id=) (improper brackets used here just to keep your browser from going nuts) tags, then life can get interesting indeed. But just wanted to correct the misconception that something can't leap into your pants without physically opening an attachment - such exploits are quite real - this kinda stuff is what *I* handle for a living now.
Look at code red for example - no file, no attachment, no executable involved - it buffer overflows the IIS web server software from Microsquish and does its thing if IIS isn't patched, and as of 8am today there's a brand new "Code Red II" making the rounds and we're all gathered around our screens here wondering if it's getting past their latest patch given the way traffic's ramping up with this new variant.
So the safest way to go about it is DON'T allow scripting unless you absolutely trust the site, never open an attachment unless you've scanned it first, and be wary even of streaming video/audio files such as WAV's ... Microsoft NT, 2000 and XPee support "hidden streams" which can be embedded in such files. If you're using 95, 98 or MiniME, those don't have such capabilities ... yet ...
Then again, if you've got a Mac or are running Linux, continue enjoying your surf. :)
WIth a properly maintained system (those not properly maintained are owned by stupid people, ESPECIALLY when major media tells you exactly where to go to fix such bugs), this is never a problem. SirCam is the threat du jour for home users; Code Red is initially run by someone at a console; once it's found a suitable host in IIS, it can spread itself, and continue to do so, until such time as every Microsuck server on the planet is patched and restarted. That's what makes this particular bug unique.
THen there's the idiot virus, literally. 'Delete SUFLNBK.EXE, its a virus! I had it too!'
It gets you to do the dirty work. And with Java, ActiveX, and those wonderful idots who provide constant music on their web sites...
-Hank
Oh, Outlook Express's preview pane doesn't automatically open anything other than graphic files, and then only if HTML email is enabled. All one needs to do to fight scripting virii before they click on them is be aware of file types, and disable the hidden extensions for registered file types. To the naive user, picture.jpg.scp looks like a JPEG. Must be safe.
Open My Computer
In 95/98/98SE, click 'View'
In ME/XP/2K, click 'Tools'
Click 'Folder Options'
Click the 'View' tab
Remove the mark from 'Hide file extensions for known file types'
Click 'OK'
You're done, and you can now look before you leap.
-Hank
Well, didn't want to continue on on this diversion from the thread, but UNPATCHED machines (and yes, if you reinstall windows, whoops go all those patches) are prone to a long standing Outbreak Express exploit involving the preview pane ...
Microsoft's "patch" for it is here
And just a brief assortment of adventures involving that can be found on these links:
http://office.microsoft.com/assistance/2000/BubbleBoy.aspx
http://www.leeshanok.com/viruswatch_outlook.htm
There's plenty more examples of them, all of which exploit VBS scripting host and "HTA objects" in scripting embedded in HTML. You're correct that an ATTACHMENT can't infect you unless you actually execute it, but scripting WAS a problem and as the Red Code II and III worm that's now circulating this weekend attests, there's a LOT of unpatched machines still out there, thus the advice. But all of this is WAY off topic for subtalk other than my wanting to explain that there is a valid reason for many to fear links and other data presented on their screen that they're not expecting to find there.
And any antivirus program is COMPLETELY USELESS unless you run it.
That is the utmost form of disrespect to even think of something like that from me. I'm utterly disgusted by you recent comment, and really almost not can't stand a post from you. How Dare You!
And I'm not joking either!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I don't think he meant it in any kind of an insulting way but it's up to himi to explain it - the internet itself is built on "trust" on a technical basis, and lately that "trust" has been bruised repeatedly by a plethora of Microsoft-induced shortcomings ... I'd be willing to bet that he didn't mean anything against you personally but rather that the level of "trust" required to run any files that aren't from a familiar person is a danger ... perhaps it could have been better phrased but I didn't take it as any indication of a judgement againt you personally - rather a distrust of unknown files ... I see this all the time for what it's worth ... and the fear factor behind it is getting worse on a daily basis ...
Also, you can spend the 25-35 bucks and buy an Antivirus program. Scan your hard disk once a week and you won't have to worry. If people are paranoid about opening every little e-mail, then you might as well call your ISP and cancel. The media blows virus problems WAY out of proportion. The risk isn't that great. I read the whole thread and don't think any real insult was meant. As far as Outlook Express and IE are concerned, I have no problem with either. I find them MUCH better than Netscape, but that's just my opinion. And, we all know opinions are like a**hol*s, everyone has one! ^_^ So, bottom line, if you're that concerned about viruses, buy Norton Antivirus 2001. I haven't found any other anti virus program that is equal. I've been virus free since using it. Also, running the autoprotect feature just slows down your system. Manually doing a weekly scan is fine. You can also configure the program to automatically scan your e-mail program.
If anyone wants tech info, e-mail me. I am a computer tech, as are many others on this post. However, I will not use this board again for anything but train talk.
Tony
Hey, give equal time to McAfee Anti-Virus (or Dr. Solomon's)!
You can't just buy an AV program and be protected. You actually need to UPDATE the virus signatures often. That's the REAL problem. Most companies don't charge for updates, yet. Many virii are simply adaptations of existing ones (Sub7), and are found easily; but ONLY if your detection files are up-to-date.
-Hank
Ooooo, fj34r m3, 1 4m 5up3r 31337....Lol, I'm no hacker, but I know the language:-)
For now on I will make a list of subtalkers that I trust BTW I trust D4000 and he is not a computer hacker.
Today was the second time I confused AM and PM while setting up my VCR. That's why I'm going to start using 24 hour time for the chat.
Im there
Oh, isn't this the chat where we have to pay you 5 bucks to get unbanned? OH YEAH IT IS...freak!
You were only banned for the one session.
Hhat about me? Why can't you ban people for one session?
what about me? Why can't you ban people for one session?
You got banned?
Hmm, well you could always come over to irc.dal.net channel #subtalk where there's no draconian policy and no banning. I'm there now, in fact.
Where its also not registered, so therefore I am op, and I will idle there forever (Running Windows XP, very stable) hehehe:-)
What Draconian policy? The idiot constantly changed his nickname to E_DOG blocking the real person from using that name, so I gave him a timeout, then he scrolled and used obscenities, and tried to get on through different addresses. He deserved to be banned.
I don't think that you can go around calling policies "draconian," the kettle is offended.
J
O
K
E....You should have gotten it, my hostnames were funny and I didn't scroll!
Whatever, last post about this subject...
From the 1914 "Rules for Conductors and Motormen", NY Railways Company:
Rule 48 states that a person caught stealing a ride on a car (streetcar) could not be "driven therefrom while in motoion" but had to be put off at the next station or stop. No wonder they couldn't keep employees. They took all the fun out of the job.
Damn!
So you can’t throw Momma from the car!
LOL
Heh. Being a largely ELEVATED railway did impose a few limitations. :)
NY Railways was a street car line. The Els were operated by the IRT.
Whoops.
It's not stupid, it's another "codified common sense" rule from the American Electric Railways Association standardized rules for street railways. What it means is a Conductor, seeing a kid hanging on the bumper to steal a ride, can't push the kid off, smack him so he falls, or spray him with tobacco juice to shock him off while the car is in motion. He's gotta wait until the car stops before doing any of the aforementioned actions, unless the kid jumps off when the car stops and runs away.
I'll bet there's a section in that book which details the way in which drivers are supposed to operate the streetcars. That's where they probably remove most of the fun from the job - for example: No going around tight corners in fully loaded open cars (well, perhaps 1914 might be a bit late for open cars, but earlier) at high rates of speed.
-Robert King
... perhaps 1914 might be a bit late for open cars ...
The Connecticut Company ran them up until about 1939... only things they had that could swallow the crowds from the Yale football games.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually the ConCo open cars ran for the Yale Bowl up to 1948 - that's how Branford and Seashore each got several of them
Thanks for the date correction, Dan... knew I should have looked it up!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While on the night shift last night, 3 LIRR Switchers 161 157 and 165 were sighted. 430AM, they pass 48 St and Barnett Ave heading towards Manhattan or Hunters Point. 445AM they all come back heading eastbound towards LI. What were these 3 switchers doing? What were they doing for those few minutes? Strange to see them on a Saturday morning.
Also another question while I'm on the topic of LIRR Switchers. Long Island 102 and 104 head westbound from 7am and head eastbound at about 10am on thew weekdays. They come back westbound at 330pm and head out at 730pm. I believe they park around 43 St. My question is what are these 2 engines used for? I see them go back and forth all the time. Always curious about that.
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
102 and 104 are rescue locomotives in case a LIRR MU lays down in one of AMTRAKs tunnels. They are kept strategically adjacent to Harold tower. As for their daily jaunts between Jamaica & Harold, since the LIRR frowns on unauthorized stops by peak trains, I would guess that 102 and 104 are shuttling Harold personnel to and from the tower.
As for the 3 LIRR locos, I'd assume that they were assigned to the track rehab project and were simply being moved out of the way while the heavy equipment was moved OR they too may have been transporting personnel.
Were the 3 MPs facing the other directions? could have been they ran down the line from dropping work cars at fresh pond and turned on on the wye lead to yard A (sunnyside) - sorta like how they used to turn the gp's during the afternoon so they'd face east for the afternoon rush...
i can't imagine why else they'd come down the line for such a short period of time, not picking anything up...
Two weeks into the flip, the TA still hasn't posted the revised M train schedule on its website.
I can think of two broad possible scenarios for this:
1. They haven't gotten their timetable artist to produce the new brochure and, even if he/she has, they haven't thought to make a PDF of it yet, and even if they have, they haven't thought (or don't care enough) to get it on their website.
2. They're testing the waters, seeing how many people actually are using the service. After vacations are over in September, they come out with their passengers count and say "nobody's using it--they're walking, or using the Chinatown shuttle bus, or going via bridge and changing at Canal." So we're killing the service and saving the people of NYC $2 million.
What do you think? 1, 2 or some of each?
Some of each.
I don't think the service is really needed. I'd take the Express over the bridge and either change at Canal or walk...........
There will be a special M line pick for C/R's and T/O's (straight jobs and RDO relief only) who have currently at least one weekday assignment on the line. The pick will last from August 13-15 and will go into effect on Aug. 26.
After August 26th, then you may see an updated M line schedule on the MTA website, but not before then.
Is there a specific car that the conductor rides in on LIRR trains?
Here it is from the August ERA New York Bulletin:
Cars Required
Line AM Rush
A 110 R-38, 216 R-44
B 80 R-68
C 112 R-32, 40 R-38
D 104 R-68
E 220 R-32
F 392 R-46
G 72 R-46*
J/Z 80 R-40M, 72 R-42
L 40 R-40, 128 R-42
M 144 R-42
N 100 R-32, 60 R-40, 32 R-68
Q Diamond Exp. 140 R-40
Q Local 136 R-68
R 216 R-46
W 8 R-68, 160 R-68A
S (63rd Street) 24 R-32*
S (Grand Street) 4 R-46**
S (Rockaway Pk) 12 R-44**
S (Franklin Ave) 4 R-68***
Cars Required
Line PM Rush
A 110 R-38, 216 R-44
B 80 R-68
C 104 R-32, 32 R-38
D 104 R-68
E 230 R-32
F 376 R-46
G 72 R-46*
J/Z 72 R-40M, 80 R-42
L 40 R-40, 128 R-42
M 144 R-42
N 100 R-32, 60 R-40, 32 R-68
Q Diamond Exp. 140 R-40
Q Local 144 R-68
R 216 R-46
W 160 R-68A
S (63rd Street) 24 R-32*
S (Grand Street) 4 R-46**
S (Rockaway Pk) 12 R-44**
S (Franklin Ave) 4 R-68***
* 6 Car Trains ** 4 Car Trains *** 2 Car Trains
The L&M lines also use R40M's.
The eastern division trains, except for the slants used on the L, have trains which all consist of mixed R40M/R42. I haven't seen a solid train of either type in 2 years.
There were still a few R-32's on the R as of last Sunday. There were at least two or three laid up on the express tracks in Queens (signed consistently as "R") and I saw one in service at 34th. They're uncommon, that's for sure.
There are plenty of R46's on the E as well, but those are officially "assigned" to the R as the R32's on the R are assigned to the E. They are frequently swapped for whatever reason.
That's the way it's been in the past, but someone "in the know" claimed here a week or two ago that the R was now 100% R-46, no exceptions.
According to the car assignment, the R line is 100% R-46. However, R-32s can pop up there from time to time, and probably do.
David
Time for some questions about car assignments. (I've asked one of these already but I haven't gotten an answer.)
First, why bother assigning specific car types to each line? Jamaica has R-32's and R-46's; why not send them out arbitrarily onto the lines served by Jamaica? Similarly, why not use an arbitrary mix of R-32's, R-40's, R-68's, and R-68A's on the N, Q, Q, and W instead of giving only N riders a bit of variety?
Second, how are these exceptions governed? The R gets an occasional R-32 and the E gets an occasional R-46, but the F never gets R-32's. There have been reports of R-40's on the W but not of R-32's. Why not?
Sorry it didn't come out the way I wanted it to look.
Those are the basic car assignments. There are deviations from them from time to time.
There have been some R-32's on the Q, R-46's on the E, it all depends.
R-40M's are based out of East New York, so yeah, they'll show up on the L and M.
But 9 times out of 10, that's what you'll get.
Of course, this doesn't count any spares. I.E. there are 48 Slant R40 assigned to the "L" with five trains in, one train out.
wayne
Once upon a time, there were 200 R38s. The information above shows at most - 150 in use. ARe there as many as 50 R38s no longer in service??
No - there are 196 R-38s currently on the 'revenue active' roster. What you are looking at is the number of R-38 cars required for service. There are cars that are not used at any given time and cars out of service for planned maintenance
This is the trip to Long Beach using the A and N 33. Meet by 10 AM at the Brooklyn bound end of the A/C at Chambers Street. Please be on time.
Yup yup yup. 3 rolls of film came back and here, for your viewing pleasure, are the best of them.
Here are 3 views of JAY tower at the Western throat of Jamaica Station on the LAIR.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/JAY1.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/JAY2.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/JAY3.jpg
Here are two views of the Delair Verticle Life bridge over the Delaware River in South Jersey
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Del10.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Del11.jpg
Here is an LAIR MU train platformed at Jamaica Station.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR-MU-platform.jpg
Here is an westbound LAIR MU train about to arrive at Jamacia.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR_9.jpg
Here is the same train as it passes through HALL interlocking.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR-hall-inbound.jpg
Here are FIVE LIAR trains in the same shot. All passing through HALL interlocking. 5:30 PM on a weekday at Jamaica, it dosen't get amy better.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LIAR-5atatime.jpg
Here is Amtrak F40 #280 in the lead of sister 291 and two evil Genisis locomotives. Here is the past, present and future of locomotives on the Inland Route all in the same shot.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Amt_280.jpg
Here is sister to 280, #291 still pullin hard.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Amt_291.jpg
Here are the 2 F40's having completed their final run on the Springfield Line. They were being transported from Springfield and might have been the last F40's to ever run on the inland route. WE'LL MISS YOU F40's!
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NH81.jpg
very nice gald to see a lot of jamaca lirr locations ! do you have a website ?? e
Not for Photos.
.........rats ...........
What kind of camera are you using? One picture (amt 129) is a bit blurry - a faster shutter speed would have frozen the engine quite nicely although some depth of field would be sacrificed in doing so.
-Robert King
That was taken w/ my cheepo camera w/ 200 speed film. It takes forever to use up film in it.
Being able to bump the shutter speed up to 1/250 or 1/500th or even 1/1000th of a second on occasion can be useful for train photography taking into account that the faster the train is moving the higher a shutter speed will have to be to prevent it from becoming a blur in pictures. A lot of those pictures of the multiple unit electric trains would be much sharper as well if your camera could be forced to operate at sufficiently high shutter speeds. 1/125th and 1/60th of a second are both good to obtain deep depth of field but only if a train is sitting still. Basically, having control over your shutter speed (and indirectly or directly aperture depending on the camera) allows you to take better pictures under a wider range of shooting conditions.
If you're seriously into photographing trains then investing in a good quality used SLR camera (manual focus, but not necessarily manual exposure) with a 50mm lens, perhaps a 35mm lens as well, to start out with would probably be money well spent.
-Robert King
I have two cameras my good camera and my cheepo camera. The problem is that the good camera is really my mom's good camera so I can't take it everywhere I want to be. Ok, here's a test. Which two photos in my lot were taken by the good camera.
I can't really do this sort of thing from my computer screen. When I have slides in my hot little hands, I'm usually quite good at figuring out several useful parameters. When one of my friends here gives me slides look at, I can normally tell if they were shot in his Pentax K1000 or Canon AV-1, roughly what the exposure settings were, and what film was used and the ISO speed of it. But for all of that I can't tell if the colours are off(!).
-Robert King
You could also invest in about $ 300.oo & get the SONY DSP-S30 digital camera with a memory stick take good clean digital
photo(s), download them into your hard drive then burn them on a CD . Then loading them on subtalk would be a breeze !!!
If you live in nyc B&H would be a good place to buy that camera !! ( seen them at target & some k marts too ! )
You could also invest in about $ 300.oo & get the SONY DSP-S30 digital camera with a memory stick take good clean digital
photo(s), download them into your hard drive then burn them on a CD . Then loading them on subtalk would be a breeze !!!
If you live in nyc B&H would be a good place to buy that camera !! ( seen them at target & some k marts too ! )
Ummm..yeah, thank you department of redundancy department
Great and outstanding photos! I especially like the last one. Which locomotives are the F40's? I know the third and fourth locomotives (they both are in diesel and electric) are new and in full power service.
Those are probably the LONGEST diesel/electric locomotives that I ever saw, and I saw and heard quite a few of them at Penn Sta. NY. They are TREMENDOUSLY LOUD! (the electric ones) But I didn't mind the noise, because I am a railfan and that's the way they are made and operated.
I also saw the same exact model of them (diesel) noisily chugging along its sharp, curved radii route to Sunnyside Yard, carrying a long distance train (with diner & sleeping cars). (Speed limit ,ASP was probably 5 or 3)
Also, about the speed of your film, It's the best to use s 400 speed film (Kodak) to shoot regular photos without the necessary equipment of a professional photographer.
Zoom 800 is a higher quality, BUT it excludes direct/bright sunlight, and other glitches that might carry forth to the processing center.
I took some pictures of freight, AMTRAK, and NJT trains along Metuchen, using a 400 speed film, and they came out Great! If you want to see them, let me know! (I'll send you or anyone via e-mail)
NOTE: A train (or any object) moving at constant speed in the same direction will not mess up your photo with blurs. I have experienced this at phototaking at Metuchen station. I took my last photo on a cloudy day on an old-fashioned electric AMTRAK locomotive (the ones that are turquoise on the top front portion and have NO logo or design whatsoever. They look pretty old) moving at a good 70-75 mph. I took my last shot, and soon enough, I saw that there were NO BLURS whatsoever.
I used a 200 speed film for shooting a local CONRAIL freight train in the area, and the rail car closest to the edge of the photo came out blurred.
Great photos!
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NH81.jpg
: )
Railfan Pete.
Great and outstanding photos! I especially like the last one. Which locomotives are the F40's? I know the third and fourth locomotives (they both are in diesel and electric) are new and in full power service.
The first two are the F40's. The latter 2 are NOT the Dual Modes you are used to in Penn Station. Those are P32's while these are P42's. Diesel only, 1000 more hp, longer and less acceleration than a cobble stone.
Also, about the speed of your film, It's the best to use s 400 speed film (Kodak) to shoot regular photos without the necessary equipment of a professional photographer.
Zoom 800 is a higher quality, BUT it excludes direct/bright sunlight, and other glitches that might carry forth to the processing center.
A little while ago my mom was about to get like 20 rolls of 200 Fuji for like 1.25 a roll so I've been working my way through that. I set out a new policy that all future film purchases will be 400 speed. If you remember my last current interest photos they were 400. I was also using a really shitty camera.
Pete, I've recently migrated to a faster film - Kodachrome 64 - simply because Kodachrome 25 is no longer readily available. Works fine, with my 1971 and 1972 vintage Canon FTbs or with my even older Exaktas. Kodak 800 film, in my opinion, is horrendous for outside photography and only marginal for indoors, and Fuji is even worse inside (equally bad outside).
And, by the way, the Amtrak units that are turquoise on the top front and have no design otherwise are the most recently rehabbed units with the newest paint scheme. Lousy, isn't it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On the other hand, if these people aren't using SLRs like the FTb but instead have point and shoots with extremely slow lenses (some are f11 or even f16 wide open) an 800 speed film would be needed to get a decent exposure. I agree that 800 speed film is absolutely horrible. I rarely go faster than ISO 100 and the only time I use film that fast is when I'm taking prints instead of slides although I do have to admit that Kodachrome 200 does have its times and places for use and it isn't too bad but I don't use it for general shooting (even if it were as good as 25 or 64, it's still too expensive to use in large quantity).
-Robert King
point and shoots with extremely slow lenses (some are f11 or even f16 wide open)
Shows how out of touch I am with bottom-feeder cameras... even my point-n-shoot Minolta zoom has an f3.8 lens... didn't realize there was much beyond f4.5 out there any more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That came out of a conversation I was having with a clerk at one of the local camera stores. I was asking why Kodak were pitching their Max 800 stuff as an every day film when I thought that films that fast were only needed to do hand held available light photography and that's when I was told that the cheap, the very bottom feeder, point and shoot cameras had such slow lenses, the ones with zoom lenses in particular are slow making ISO 400 the minimum speed film needed to get by adequately unless below average shooting conditions exist which is where the 'benefit' of using ISO 800 film comes in. The better point and shoots still have f3.5 lenses so they don't require outrageously fast films. Then again, I find the 50mm f1.2 Canon FD lens and Kodachrome 200 work very well for existing light (quick pot-shots of subway trains and streetcars where it's darkish). Point and shoot cameras aren't something I keep track of either.
-Robert King
F - Overnight, uptown 6th ave express W4th to 34th.
W - Weekend (11-12) - Northbound trains on the N express from CI to 36.
Q - Weekend (11-12) - Southbound trains express from Prospect to Sheepshead Bay.
N - Overnight, downtown trains run over manhattan bridge from Canal to DeKalb.
Looks like the hiatus is over, we're back to the same old story.
N - Overnight, downtown trains run over manhattan bridge from Canal to DeKalb.
Oh, is that what "No downtown trains from Canal St to DeKalb Av" means? You're probably right, but I took it to mean that the N was running in two sections. Why not "Downtown trains do not stop between Canal St and DeKalb Av" or somesuch?
The thing that tipped me off was that no downtown trains were stopping between Canal and DeKalb. Thus implying uptown trains still stopped there. If that was the case, trains would have to be returning downtown by some other route, or else eventually the southern half would run out of trains and the northern half would be jammed with them. The only other route possible that would result in trains stopping at Canal and DeKalb would be the Manhattan bridge.
8-17--8-20 D to WTC both directions. (They no longer have to worry about connecting some of them to the Brooklyn half at W4th)
Does anyone have any info on the "L" GO's for this month? There are afew jobs, I hear. No info has surfaced on the MTA Advisories page.
Well, the current one has trains operating in two sections:
B'way Jct. to 8th Av
B'way Jct. to Rockaway Pkwy.
I was on an L train today entering B'way Jct. and it went over a switch beyond the Manhattan end of the station, which I think is recent.
I know a master tower for the entire concourse line is being built, I know of two locations. I dont remember which one is getting it. Bedford Park Station or at the Concourse Yard. Thanks for the help.
It was a toss up, but if they haven't changed their minds again it is supposed to be at Bedford Park. I believe they have started to wall up the mezzanine. Info may be on the MTA website.
Does anyone have a list of existing or planned master towers and their coverage?
I'm working on it and hope to have it posted within the next two weeks.
Excellent!
As of this writing (Also as of 12:00 this morning) ALL # 7 trains are now 10 cars. There about 14 R 33 singles sitting in Corona yard all coupled together.
Isn't it late for them to do that?
GET OVER IT!
It was slated to happen and now it did, you knew and I knew and I believe a good portion of this board knew it!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
wha they are going to be scrapped? if whats the reason for shrinking the capacity?
Its funny the first day they run 10 cars they put me on the No.7 Line. It was only me 3rd time being on that line. Also the 10 cars started Friday night. I felt like a brand new C/R because I had to look at the map to announce the stops and make mental notes about what I need to know about the No.7 Line. Line like open both sides on M TK at Main St. Thats one proceedure I don't like because how can I see if all the doors are closed and locked if I'm not getting indication because the other side is still open and how can you observe both sides of the platform. Willis Point still not sure of I know on a reguler day you open on your off side going uptown but what if theres a tennis thing going on do you open both? Still have no clue I'll find out when it happens. Also remember the stop Hunters Point is not Hunts Point. Also at Times Sq do not get into that habbit of saying this is a Bronx bound train when its going to queens. When I think of Northbound I think of BRONX. Well I did good by remembering I was a No.7 train to queens. The only mess up I this was call the T/D on the Radio Flatbush instead of Main Street. "Flatbush need lights on 2tk".
I wasn't too crazy about closing down like that myself. Best thing that I can tell you is to always close down on the side that you can see best first.
OK, so what way does the No. 7 go?
I mean, the E and F, the R, N, and W are all NORTHBOUND in Manhattan, so obviously they are northbound in Queens.
But what about this poor No. 7?
The original route of the IRT was NORTH from City Hall to Grand Central, then NORTH to Times Square, and the NORTH up Broadway.
So Clearly the segment between GCS and Times Sq is NORTHBOUND, This means that the No. 7 is going SOUTHBOUND to Queens?
(Just to make life more complicated! : )
So Clearly the segment between GCS and Times Sq is NORTHBOUND, This means that the No. 7 is going SOUTHBOUND to Queens?
That's not true. Although the #7 IRT Flushing Line may be located NORTH of GCS and Times Square, doesn't mean it goes SOUTHBOUND to Queens.
The position of the IRT #7 line is from west to east (inbound) and vice versa (outbound to Manhattan). The conductors wouldn't say, NOR would it be considered a 'Southbound' 7 train. Conductors and reference do NOT use the compass directions (I forgot the name for it) for the #7 line. It's pretty obvious.
(1) The #7 line would never use logical directions, such as northbound or southbound.
(2) Conductors and reference items refer to the #7 as "Manhattan bound or To Times Square. And a Flushing bound #7 train or a train to Main St."
(3) The #7 train will not be referred to as northbound & southbound.
Hopefully this clears up any doubts.
: )
Railfan Pete.
In Control Center and dispatcher jargon, #7 trains from Main St, are considered southbound and trains from Times Square are considered northbound. All TA lines are considered northbound or southbound. Regular railroads (AMTRAK & Commuter Lines) are considered eastbound or westbound.
That's because the MTA wants to clear up any subway oddities in their directions. Even though the IRT Flushing Line is not literally northbound or southbound, the MTA just refers to as that. But the conductors would NEVER say a Northbound or a Southbound on the #7, because it literally goes from west to east.
Railfan Pete.
It is because crews are instructed not to say to the passengers "northbound" or "southbound". Rather they are instructed to say: "Manhattan bound" or "Queens bound". Repeating what I originally posted: the TA refers to all subway lines internally as northbound or southbound. Not only the Flushing line.
because even though it goes east, it has a diagonal position going north and south in queens.
Ah yes, tis a sad day for all Redbird fans now that the single units are withdrawn. The unair-conditioned cars that spawned many a rancid smelling armpit now have their majestic axiflow fans silenced !
This indeed is an emotional moment for me. Sniff Sniff !!
Bill "Newkirk"
50 years (half a century)
I'm sure most will be right back in service after Labor Day - that's only 4 weeks away.
"I'm sure most will be right back in service after Labor Day - that's only 4 weeks away."
Does that mean the rancid smelling armpits will return ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Old fert
Check the Corona yard -- if they're still laid up there, odds are they will make a curtain call on the Flushing line this fall. If they're not there, start checking Concourse or 207st for cars in the low 9300s on the scrap line.
I would imagine they'll keep a few of them around if for no other reason than for moves to CIY.
Oh, I'm sure as work trains they'll be around for a while, since the next oldest car class, the R-62s, are only now entering their "middle age" period, and the IRTs are the preferred work units, since they're the "type O" of the NYC subway system -- they can go anywhere unlike their BMT counterparts (and out of the B Division fleet, I doubt we'll be seeing too many Slant 40 work trains next decade).
No point in making any of the stainless steel cars into work trains right now, especially with the need for addition train sets to increase rush hour service on the mainline routes.
No, they'll be ready to join the fishies by then...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
GLUG, GLUG, GLUG
Peace,
ANDEE
Good-bye, Redbirds,
Good-bye, Redbirds,
Good-bye, Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now.
Get the darn R-62s on there and you don't have to worry about it. Or, you could install AC in the single units. Wait, hold on, I just woke up! The TA installing AC on the R36s? (Dr. Evil Voice) RIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!
... It's Railfan Pete. I checked your website. I can see that the lights on the R142's still run perpendicular to the seats! He. By the way, the ding-dong associated with the door closing tone on the R142's are considered to be 'Subway Doorbells', because they're not an extended 'ding-dong'. (Some door closing tones NEED to be fixed on the R46's! )
I've heard them on the R142 a couple of times, and I wasn't 100% satisfied because the sound was like a soft doorbell, but everything else, the automated voice (CLEARLY AUDIBLE!), infrastructure, and its amenities are amazing and outstanding! Bright lighting too!
: )
Railfan Pete.
>>> ... It's Railfan Pete. I checked your website. I can see that the lights on the R142's still run perpendicular to the seats! <<<
Pete;
What is this post doing in a thread about the #7 line? Try to use a little bulletin board etiquette. If you want to send a personal message, post it on Tony's site or use e-mail.
Tom
Ohhh... This reverts back to our previous SubTalk chain of discussions. Everyone was talking about how the #7 line would lose their single unit car (this was about a month ago), but at that time it was not true. The #7 ran all on 11 cars on the weekends (That's the time that I saw them. ) while we were all grumbling and complaining about them.
I'll try to go check tomorrow if the #7 trains DO really run in 10-car units now. Hopefully I won't observe at 61 St. - Woodside and count that there are still 11-cars in service.
: )
Railfan Pete.
You should see 10 Cars because me and my T/O put in a 10 car train for service and did four trips with 10 cars. I was glad they ran 10 car trains because I am not use to 11 cars. I'm sure if they where running 11 cars today me and my T/O would go downtown for leaving a car behind.
I believe it now. The #7 Flushing line was running all of its Manhattan bound trains express in Flushing - Main St. and 61 St. - Woodside today. I counted 10 cars. I also consulted some passing trains, and they also had 10 cars.
Today's afternoon trip, I rode an R36 #9661 paired with #9660 to Times Square (it had 10 cars). The A/C was fresh and the ride was great. The startups and brakes seemed to work out well, and the doors were in unison, closing and opening without slamming.
R62(A)'s are paired too. On the connecting trip, I rode a R62(A) #1 7th Av. Local train #2295 paired with #2296 on our way to Pennsylvania Station - 34 St.
It was a good experience.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The R62A's on the 1 line are linked into five car sets.
What's wrong, you don't believe all these SubTalk posters who report that the #7 line is now running 10 cars?........Friday afternoon, I was observing the PM rush from the overpass at Hunters Point. Little did I know that 10 car #7 trains would be the norm a few hours later. I hope #7 line riders bitch and moan about the mising car, that the TA will restore the 11th car ASAP. Some people actually like the single car, some people do not like air conditioning, especially if they are from a hot country, they are used to the hot! If they don't complain, will they try to get away with 10 car trains when the R62A's are transfered?
Very good point, Bill. I was thinking the same exact thing.
The singles might be next up to go "swimming."
Starting today the No.7 Line is running 10 Cars. There was a notice saying they will run 11 Cars between the AM and PM Rush Hours all other times they will only run 10 cars.
Ok. If THAT makes sense, then there's a certain blind T/O that the 7 line could use.
You're a bad, bad man. (snicker)
I know they may take her as well. I'm sure the only wrong route she can take is a line up into Corona YD in service.
I hope I don't get the No.7 that often because now that I'm PM's this will really mess me up.
Well the notice said after PM rush the No.7 will run 10 cars and the T.S.S will make the train crews aware of how many cars they have.
Dont worry, the PM TSS on the 7 line WILL make sure of that!! Trust me!!!!!
Would the doors work of either R62 or R62A are mixed with Redbirds ?
"Would the doors work of either R62 or R62A are mixed with Redbirds ?"
Don't know for sure, but the TA isn't about to mix that kind of equipment no matter what.
Bill "Newkirk"
50 years (half a century)
True, but if they could, the first 30 R62A's on the Flushing need not be entire trainsets, but be Livonia singles to replace the R33S.
"True, but if they could, the first 30 R62A's on the Flushing need not be entire trainsets, but be Livonia singles to replace the R33S."
Can't answer that, sounds like a job for SubTalk's technical maven, Train Dude.'
Bill "Newkirk"
Now hold it. That makes no sense whatsoever. Number 1, that requires a lot of drilling and lots of additional personell. Secondly, every train on the #7 line would have to go to Corona Yard to accomplish this. That's too many additional moves!
Thats the way I understood the notice. I may have mis-read it. If I find the notice again I'll repost the information if its wrong.
Im about to change my handle you will see what it is.
Okay so today is my birthday. I reached the half century mark in one piece. It seems like only yesterday I was marveling about reaching 25 years (1/4 century).
When I was born, the R-15s were only a year old ! WOW!!
Now I know how Sea Beach Fred feels! I killed the idea of going to the Newkirk Ave station (Q) today with a birthday Twinkie. But 50 candles stuck in it and the muggy weather would have melted that Twinkie into a pile of sponge cake.
I'm going to celebrate my birthday with a friend next week at HOOTERS !
Bill "Newkirk"
50 years (half century)
Happy Birthday and welcome to the "over 50" club!
Same here Bill. Here's hoping for another 50 for you. Take care and have a great day,
Happy Birthday!
Don't worry, I should be able to reach the club in, oh, 31 years!
- Jose
Oh, you kid!!!! Don't rub it in to this soon to be 61 year old warhorse.
Gongrats on 50.
I was born in the same year as the R10s : )
The R1-9s are still my favorites, rode on them as a kid when Dad would bring me into the city for a day. (This was back in the early 60's.
He told me that the IND had the newest and best equipment, but the fact is that he hadn't been on the BMT or the IND for years, and I thought thoes R27s were simply the cat's meow.
Makes you feel old to see all of those cars gone.
Elias
Happy Birthday!!!!!!!Enjoy the headlights! (At Hooters)
Happy Birthday from a fellow lensman to another.
A very nice man i met him at the coney island yards when south ferry also called me and told me about the nice tour there with
Mark W & Mr. mike hanna our tour leader etc..@ right on south ferry !!
Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!
this november 3 2001 i will be 50 too !! cant believe it !!
Happy Birthday!!
When I was born, the R-32s were just being delivered.
Nearly 40 years later, they're still running! I hope I'm in as good shape as they are!!
--Mark
Happy Burthda!!
I'll be a quarter century and 7 years old come aug 8th..
From one Bill to another Bill: Happy Birthday! At least you always will be a year-and-a-half older than me! By the way, now you are eligable to join the AARP and more importantly, get a senior citizen discount at lots of stores!
Congratulations Bill. From a 05/03/01 half-century model.
--Harry
Happy Birthday, Bill.
Peace,
ANDEE
Happy Birthday.
The 18-49 age group bids you farewell.
Happy Brithday Bill!!!!
Thanks for all the great calendars the past few years, they've brought back quite a few memories of growing up in the greatest city in the world!!
And I don't feel too bad now, I hit that half-century mark last December!
You've got a decade to go to catch up to me and don't be in any hurry to do so. But one thing I have found out and Newkirk should be elated. Bill, you have a lot of fans on this site. The best of everything to you.
Happy Birthday, Bill.
I'm not much behind you. When I was born, the R32's were just being phased into service.
Oh well. I was born when the last R9's were only a few years old [l943]. Had thegood fortune of seeing almost all the first generation traction equipment still in service, of course especially the beloved High-V's and Low-V's.
A touch of steam, on rails and quite a bit of it on water [ferries and excursion steamers], glad I had a chance to be a part of it.
Of course it doesn't help considering how few years comparatively are left and how fast they disappear the older you get.
Happy birthday bill...enjoy the view at Hooters. Being 50 doesn't mean it's over...it's all in the mind.
And Bill ... remember those two most important words on a night out ... "TAKE OUT!" Heh.
Happy Birthday Bill. Hve fun at HOOTERS!!!!
happy birthday weclome to the 50's club
Happy Belated Birthday, Bill!
When I turned 50 I really began to feel old because I was given a tee shirt that said..
"Fifty Isn't Old If You Are A Tree"
If it's any consolation to you, I've had that tee shirt 15 years last Wednesday!
You're only as old as you feel!
Happy Birthday from one member of the Howdy Doody generation to another.
Happy Birthday Bill. Sniff...Sniff. . 50 may be old, but you have another generation ahead of you! Until the R62(A)'s retire out, you'll see what's next.
I was born a while after the Pneumatic Shop was built (guess when).
Also, I checked and counted 4 IRT Flushing line trains, sniff..., and they have finally removed the last single-unit cars from them. Guess the old times are over.
: |
Railfan Pete.
happy birthday, you old geezer!
-Hank
Happy Birthday, Bill.
I'll be joining the club in early November (pray for us all).
Hooters?
By the time you put on a few more years, you will have to be more careful. Try one hooter one night, then hey some recover time before you try another...
Many happy returns!
Happy Birthday, Bill! Ain't senior citizen discounts great? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The R-10s were only about 2 to 3 years old at the time you born. They still had all of the original equipment on the IRT, BMT and IND divisions. The Third Avenue El in Manhattan was still in operation. The was no Chrystie Street connection. A lot has changed over the last 50 years and who know what will come next. Happy Birthday Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I noticed something strange at the Grand Army Plaza IRT station today. (I am sure that what I noticed has been going on for some time; I just have not spent much time at that station.)
There are signs above the stairways which direct people to the "north side" and the "south side" of Flatbush Ave. This is odd because Flatbush Ave. is a N-S street, and so should presumably have an "east side" and a "west side".
It is true that Flatbush Ave. runs diagonally for much of its length, being truly N-S for only its middle segment in the Ebbets Field area. Still, I believe it is officially N-S. Just a few blocks away from the Grand Army Plaza station, there is a sign on the street which directs cars from Plaza Street West onto southbound Flatbush Ave.
Is Grand Army Plaza the only station whose signs refer to Flatbush Ave. this way? What does it say on the signs above the stairs leading out of the other stations on Flatbush Ave.? I guess that would be Nevins and Bergen on the IRT, 7th Ave. on the D -- uh, the Q, the large Atlantic Ave. station, and DeKalb Ave. (Oh, I forgot about the end of the 2 line at Brooklyn College.)
Assuming that Flatbush Ave. is indeed officially N-S, then I find the signs in the Grand Army Plaza station very strange, particularly in light of my experience with Queens Blvd.
For anyone who is south of the LIE, Queens Blvd. looks and acts like a N-S street. However, it is officially an E-W street. So, the signs on the subway exits on Queens Blvd. direct people to the "north side" and the "south side" of the street. The "official" -- and not the actual -- orientation of the street determines what is on the signs in those subway stations.
Whenever I have given directions to people which entail their getting off at any of the IND stations on Queens Blvd. between Woodhaven Blvd. and Van Wyck Blvd., I have advised them that "north side" and "south side" should be understood to mean "northBOUND side" and "southBOUND side". Many people have mentionted to me how helpful this little tidbit was in helping them to get their bearings.
What I am saying is this: if there is anyplace in the subway where the signs ought to refer to the "true" as opposed to the "official" orientation of a street above, it is on Queens Blvd. That street's "feel" as a N-S street is unmistakable. In fact, during my brief, month-long career as a livery cab driver, I must have radioed my position as "going north on QB" or "going south on QB" at least once a day, only to be angrily "corrected" by a dispatcher each time ("WHADDAYA MEAN 'NORTH'?!").
I had always just assumed that the signs in the subway must refer only to the "official" orientation of the street. Yet the signs at the Grand Army Plaza station would indicate that this is not necessarily the case.
So, if "official" orientation can be ignored on Flatbush Ave., then the same thing can be done on Queens Blvd. I propose that exit signs in stations between Woodhaven Blvd. and Van Wyck Blvd. should read "east side" and "west side" (or, even better, "northbound side" and "southbound side").
Of course, north (or west) of the Woodhaven Blvd. staton, Queens Blvd. does feel like an E-W street. So, the single IND station there (as well as the several IRT stations farther up) could keep their signs which say "north side" and "south side".
Ferdinand Cesarano
Queens Blvd. runs east-west for most of it's stretch, so describing its sides as north and south makes sense.
Queens Blvd. runs east-west for most of it's stretch, so describing its sides as north and south makes sense.
It doesn't make sense south of the LIE.
As I said in my original post, since Flatbush Ave. -- officially a N-S street -- is described in at least one location as having a "north side" and a "south side", then Queens Blvd. -- officially an E-W street -- ought to be described south of the LIE as having an "east (or "northbound") side" and a "west (or "southbound") side".
Ferdinand Cesarano
I'd say that Grand Av. is where Queens Blvd takes on the feel of N-S. There is a bend there, where it goes from the more E-W alignment of Queensboro Bridge and turns a bit more southward. The Queens Mall definitely looks like it's on the east side of a street, not the north side (except for the LIE). Also helpind give it the N-S feel is that the E-W avenues (71st-Continental, etc) have turned bit and are almost paralle (or on the s/w side, are parallel) to Queens Blvd.
When do you think the TA will stop calling the South Side Bridge changes "contruction" and "new services." I'm just wondering when the new configuration will become the norm. I like the new configuration better than the old.
They will definitely stop when there are newer new services, since these will become old services in comparison. Thus, definitely by November.
I predict September 1st as the day the passengers get fed up and storm the command center demanding they cease and decist.
It'll become the norm when construction gets delayed indefinitely, or they realize that they can't use the North side of the bridge anymore.
If you think about it, this IS the old service pattern prior to Chrystie Street in 1967, just minus trains using the Nassau Street loop.
What is left of the old Nassau Loop service is provided - at least 1/2 of it, by M trains that are underutilized during midday because they go through the Montague Street tunnel and then up Nassau Street to the Willy B instead of taking the loop, south side of the bridge, and then DeKalb, or the other way around.
I think 50 years ago it was the Culver trains that primarily used the South Side of the bridge and the Nassau Street loop. Instead of M trains terminating at Bay Parkway, they could be terminating at Kings Highway if they didn't do away with the Culver between 9th and Ditmas.
That post was working before not it's not working! What happin? I end up getting this!
"An error has occured
The server could not find the message (247142) you requested. Perhaps it has been expired or deleted, or you followed a broken link."
What happin?
Perhaps it was deleted. Maybe you have some idea why.
I came across a posting that had the same message that you came across. The topic was "2nd Av. Subway Q & A" (Something like that.) I try to go to the First in Thread option, but it says :
"An error has occured
The server could not find the message (247142) you requested. Perhaps it has been expired or deleted, or you followed a broken link."
I wonder what it was.
Railfan Pete.
I have had a post disappear on occasion.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I was coming home at my home station (Metuchen) in NJ, and on the 8:33PM train from New York to Trenton, I spotted:
2 diesel (most likely Amtrak) work trains in single units.
One was spotted in the Rahway station area, and another passing by at Metuchen. (unfortunately I didn't get to see it because the NJT train at the southbound platform was blocking the view.)
Is anyone able (with knowledge) to tell me what these two diesel trains were doing (in single units each) and where it was headed? where it was from? etc...
The time of the oddity was from around 09:10 - 09:17PM.
Another question:
Where do NJT and Amtrak diesel locomotives go to fuel their diesel tanks? Each locomotive (based on GP-40-FH-2 model) carries a full-tank capacity of 2,500 gallons. I'm sure those LONG F-40's (?) carry much more in just one locomotive.
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
NJT would fuel theirs in the Meaddows engine facility. Amtrak probably has a small Fuel pad in Sunnyside and there's a big one at the Race St. Engine Terminal in philly.
Greetings, all...
I'm in the process of reserving a block of rooms at the Holiday Inn Mart Plaza (adjacent to the Merchandise Mart) for Labor Day weekend. The hotel is in a very conveneint location for our purposes, as you can walk indoors to the Merchandise Mart stop on the Brown / Purple Lines at the other end of the Merchandise Mart. It's also very close to many downtown attractions in the Loop and River North, and because it sits on top of the Apparel Mart building, almost all the rooms should have pretty incredible views.
The room rate will be $125 per night, single or double. That's a little more than I was hoping, but that's about the best we're able to do for a downtown hotel large enough to have a block of rooms available for us. (Rooms out near O'Hare aren't much cheaper, and wouldn't be worth the inconvenience of being 45 minutes away from downtown. But if you really want to stay near O'Hare, be my guest.) I'll have a block of 20 rooms available, and it will be up to you to reserve your room BEFORE AUGUST 17th in order to get the group rate. After August 17th, room availability may be limited, and you will pay the standard rate. I still need to fax a form back to the hotel on Monday before they'll finalize our reservations, but here's their contact information anyway:
HOLIDAY INN MART PLAZA
350 North Orleans
(312) 836-5000
Group rate for "SubTalk Field Trip"
IMPORTANT: Make your reservations after Monday, August 6th but before Friday, August 17th. Call between the hours of 7:00 AM and 6:00 PM, and be sure to mention the group name "SubTalk Field Trip."
If you want a room to yourself, simply make your reservation as such. If you need to share a room with one or two other people, I encourage you to get in contact with the people you're interested in sharing with and make arrangements that way. If you can't find anybody to share a room with, send me an e-mail before next Friday (August 10th) and explain your situation and give your contact info. That weekend I'll send out a list of who all is looking for a roomie, and it will be up to you to contact each other after that.
DIRECTIONS TO THE HOTEL:
From O'Hare: From Terminals 1, 2, or 3, follow the signs that say "Trains to City". These will lead you to the Blue Line terminal under the parking garage. (I don't think we'll have any people arriving on international flights, but just in case, take the airport people-mover train from Terminal 5 to Terminal 3.) Once on the Blue Line, sit back and enjoy the ride. Exit the train at Clark / Lake and transfer to the Brown Line (Ravenswood) upstairs. The destination sign of the train should be say "Kimball." Ride the train across the river and exit at the first stop, which will be Merchandise Mart. Use the crossover and enter the building. Stay on the second floor, and walk all the way down to the other end of the building and cross the skywalk over Orleans Street to the Apparel Mart building. You should then see signs for the Holiday Inn. Take the elevators up to the lobby level.
From Midway: Follow the signs to the CTA Orange Line and take the train all the way into the Loop. Exit the train at Clark / Lake, cross over the tracks, and then grab the Brown Line train (it should say "Kimball" on the destination sign) to the Mart. Then follow the directions above to get to the hotel.
From Union Station (for you true railfans): From the Amtrak baggage claim area, turn right as you exit the baggage claim area and walk past the Metra ticket windows. The ramp will curve down toward the right, and you should see some Metra platforms on your left at the bottom of the ramp. Keep to the right, and take the escalators up to the mezzanine level, and then the next set of escalators up to the Adams Street entrance. Walk across the river on Adams and keep going until you get to Orleans. Turn left on Orleans and walk the next several blocks until you cross the river again. The hotel will be on the left side once you cross the river. Or, you can grab a taxi from Union Station and save some energy.
BY CAR: If you're driving, the hotel is on Orleans just north of the river. Parking at the hotel is $18 a day, with in/out privileges.
If the room cost is an issue, you may be able to find rooms for as low as $85 a night in some smaller downtown hotels. Check www.travelocity.com for the lowest available rates. You may also be able to find even lower rates outside of downtown, but you'll have to allow for some extra travel time to meet with the rest of the group. Be sure your hotel is within easy walking distance to an "L" stop that has decent weekend / holiday service (Red, Brown or Blue lines are your best bets).
Here are some other places worth considering:
CHICAGO LODGE
920 West Foster (Up in Edgewater, but only a half-block away from my apartment)
(773) 334-5600
CASS HOTEL
640 North Wabash
(312) 787-4030
CLUB QUARTERS (as mentioned by Bill Steil)
111 West Adams
(312) 214-6400
At least one person inquired about staying at a youth hostel. Here's one located in the beautiful Lincoln Park neighborhood, about a 10-minute walk from the Red Line stop at Fullerton:
ARLINGTON HOUSE
616 West Arlington
(773) 929-5380
INTINERARY (subject to change):
Friday, August 31st:
Meet in the Great Hall of Union Station at 5:30 PM, at the TV monitors in the center of the hall.
Metra Heritage Corridor train to Joliet (departs Union Station at 6:18 PM)
Metra Rock Island train back to city (arrives LaSalle Street Station at 7:43 PM)
Walk over to Sears Tower Skydeck, meet with any late arrivals in the Skydeck lobby at 8:00 PM.
Saturday, September 1st:
Railfan Day at Illinois Railway Museum! (Meet in the hotel lobby at 8:00 AM. For those who are driving and can offer rides, street parking near the hotel shouldn't be a problem on a Saturday morning.)
Return to city in the evening for dinner and sightseeing / railfanning on the "L"
Possible late night of clubbing for those who are interested.
Sunday, September 2nd:
Meet at Randolph Street Station waiting area at 10:00 AM
Metra Electric train to Kensington (departs Randolph Street Station at 10:30 AM)
South Shore train back to downtown (arrives Randolph Street Station at 1:00 PM)
Railfanning on the "L" rest of the day
Get-together at my apartment sometime in the evening
Monday, September 3rd:
More sightseeing / railfanning on the "L"
Say goodbye, check-out, return to wherever you came from.
MORE INPORTANT INFO: For the trip out to IRM, I need to know who all will have a car and how many people you can carry (not including yourself). This way hopefully I'll be able to tell wether or not we'll need to rent some sort of van.
That's it for now...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like this is bound to be one helluva good time!
My CAPS off to you, Mr. David Cole!!!
Cheers from the Ferry!
Hey, I'm a working member at IRM and I would be happy to show some of you Subtalkers around the museum - especially the Electric Car Department, which is where I work. Is there any way that I would be able to recognize this group, or have you already set up a charter? Of course, if you're simply not looking for a guide, that's fine too!
We'd be happy to have you (or anybody else from IRM) show us around. Thanks for the offer!! You'll probably recognize us as a bunch of (mostly) middle-aged guys taking lots of photos and trying not to drool too much on the exhibits. We'll probably arrive on the grounds fairly early in the day. If you want to meet us at a specific time and place, just let me know.
BTW, I'm becomming more involved at the Electric Car Shop out there myself. The past two Saturdays I've been working with Pete (I forget his last name -- he works at the CTA tower at Armitage) on the CTA 1-50 series cars, especially car 30.
In fact, we took cars 30 and 41 out for a spin on the main line last weekend, and I got some time at the controller of car 30. Upon reading the history of car 30, it turns out there's a 1 in 3 chance that car was the first "L" car I ever rode in upon moving to Chicago eight years ago this month. I parked my car at the Skokie Swift lot on my first-ever trip to the Loop in 1993, and caught one of the 1-50 series cars to Howard. As it turns out, car 30 was one of only three of those cars operating on the Skokie Swift at that time.
How many railfans can say there's a 1 in 3 chance that they've actually been at the controller of the first NYCTA subway car they've ever ridden on? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
From Union Station (for you true railfans): ...Walk across the river on Adams and keep going until you get to Orleans. Turn left on Orleans and walk the next several blocks until you cross the river again...
I've been kindly informed by a knowledgeable Chicagoan that Adams does not intersect with Orleans in the Loop. (oops!) Walk across the river on Adams and keep going until you get to FRANKLIN. Turn left on Franklin and walk the next several blocks until you cross the river again, at which point Franklin become Orleans.
You all would have found the hotel sooner or later. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
According to the NICTD schedule, South Shore trains do not board passengers heading downtown from Kensington/115th to Randolph. Inbound passengers must board Metra trains for trips downtown. You may want to tweak your schedule a bit to accomodate this.
Here's a link to the schedule:
http://www.nictd.com/schedule/weekendwestbound.html
-Jason
I looked at the schedule before I set up the times, and it says "Westbound trains will NOT board passengers between Kensington and Randolph St," which I understand to mean that people can board at Kensington but not any of the stations inbound from there.
If that's not the case, then I guess we'd have to make other plans, since there would be no other way to ride Metra in one direction and the South Shore for the return trip, or vice-versa.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I looked at the schedule before I set up the times, and it says "Westbound trains will NOT board passengers between Kensington and Randolph St," which I understand to mean that people can board at Kensington but not any of the stations inbound from there.
Unfortunately, what that translates into is that you can't board westbound AT Kensington either. "Between" in commuter RR lingo tends to have an understood "and including" with it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info. Looks like we'll probably just take a quick ride on the Metra Electric and maybe take a walk around the South Shore platforms at Randolph Street, depending on what the group is in the mood for.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think this is because of the fact that NICTD's track access agreement stipulates that it does not rob IC Electric for passengers. This means NICTD trains aren't allowed to pick up passengers where Metra does provide a service. I doubt any NICTD conductors would complain if you boarded the train with Metra tickets (provided you don't overcrowd the train), since NICTD isn't allowed to sell you a ticket for that journey. That said, I've never tried to do this myself. If you board a Metra train with a NICTD ticket, I could see them having a fit.
Lexcie
There's a third option from Union Station other than walking and taking a cab: cross the river, head east on Adams or Jackson, and when you get to Wells (two blocks past the river), get on the L at Quincy, which is between Adams and Jackson. Board a Brown Line train, take a nice ride around most of the Loop, and get off at Merchandise Mart station. The hotel is at the opposite end of the Merchandise Mart from the L station, but the L station leads directly into the Mart and the hotel is connected to the Mart by a skybridge. That means that if you travel this way with baggage, you'll have to walk it up the stairs at Quincy, but not at Merchandise Mart.
True. Or if they arrive during rush hour they can grab a Purple Line train at Quincy and have a straight shot to the Mart, making only one stop in between. But rush hour is not the time to be dragging luggage onto the L. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Greetings, all...
In order to help me plan this weekend, I need some help from you. What I need is an e-mail from you, sent to DavidCole@NthWard.com with the following information:
YOUR NAME (first and last)
YOUR SUBTALK HANDLE (if applicable)
HOW WILL YOU BE TRAVELLING TO CHICAGO? (plane, train, automobile)
IF DRIVING, HOW MANY PASSENGERS CAN YOU CARRY?
WHEN WILL YOU BE ARRIVING? (be as specific as possible)
WHERE WILL YOU BE STAYING?
Optional: WHAT ARE YOU MOST INTERESTED IN SEEING? (The "L", Metra, IRM, etc.)
Optional: ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS / CONCERNS
Again, please send this information to me via e-mail. If you post it to SubTalk as a response, there's no guarantee I'll see it.
IMPORTANT: IF I DON'T GET A RESPONSE FROM YOU BY THIS SUNDAY, AUGUST 12th, I WILL ASSUME YOU'RE NOT COMING!
If you don't have your travel plans 100% finalized yet but still plan on coming, that's fine, but I still need a response from you.
This information will assist with important aspects of the weekend, including:
Getting a general idea of how many people we should be waiting for Friday evening
Determining whether or not we need to charter a van or bus to IRM
Seeing if we have enough people to get discounted admission to IRM
Making meal reservations if necessary
Seeing if my apartment is physically large enough to host everybody
So needless to say, it's crucial that I get a response from everybody who is planning on going on the trip. This is particularly important for planning transportation to and from IRM; I can't afford to reserve a van or bus that we don't need, but I also don't want to be stuck with 30 people trying to fit into my Saturn.
See SubTalk posting 247360 for important information about lodging, directions, and a tentative itinerary.
Your taking a few seconds to do this is greatly appreciated, and will help make this a great weekend for everybody. Thanks in advance!
-- David
Chicago, IL
For those of you planning on staying at the Holiday Inn Mart Plaza, keep in mind that tomorrow (Friday, August 17th) is the last day to make reservations under the "SubTalk Field Trip" group rate. See the "Important Information" posting above for more lodging info.
Also, if you haven't already done so, I need the following information from those who plan on going (Yes, even from those of you who are blessed enough to already live here in Chicago):
YOUR NAME (first and last)
YOUR SUBTALK HANDLE (if applicable)
HOW WILL YOU BE TRAVELLING TO CHICAGO? (plane, train, automobile, already live here)
IF DRIVING, HOW MANY PASSENGERS CAN YOU CARRY?
WHEN WILL YOU BE ARRIVING? (be as specific as possible)
WHERE WILL YOU BE STAYING?
Optional: WHAT ARE YOU MOST INTERESTED IN SEEING? (The "L", Metra, IRM, etc.)
Optional: ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS / CONCERNS
E-mail your RSVP to me at DavidCole@NthWard.com. We won't banish you from the group if you show up without confirming your attendance, but keep in mind that in the rare possibility of a shortage of rides out to IRM, those who have RSVP'ed will take priority over those who haven't.
Okay folks, so here's the new-and-improved itinerary for the Chicago Field Trip. THIS OVERRIDES THE PREVIOUS OLD-AND-INFERIOR ITINERARY. There's a couple reasons for the changes:
1) The Metra / South Shore trip wouldn't have worked out because there's no easy way to take one outbound and the other inbound. Besides, most people seem more interested in the CTA anyway.
2) I'm able to take Friday off from work and several people will be arriving early in the afternoon, giving us a little more time to play with.
3) The Douglas "L", the Sokie Swift, and the Evanston Express don't run on weekends or holidays. We'll try to fit them in on Friday afternoon/evening instead of going to Joilet on Metra.
Also, I decided that the Great Hall at Union Station will serve as a good "base of operations", since people will be staying overnight at a number of places (including those of us who actually live in Chicagoland). We'll start each day by meeting at the TV monitors smack in the center of the hall. I'll also have my cell phone with me the whole weekend. I'll send my number out via e-mail to those who have RSVP'ed.
So, here it is again. Keep in mind this isn't necessarily carved in stone; there's still plenty of flexibility to see various things (and eat at various places) depending on what the group is in the mood for.
INTINERARY (subject to change):
Friday, August 31st:
3:00 PM: Meet in the Great Hall of Union Station. Walk over to Quincy "L" stop, ride the Evanston Express and Skokie Swift, return to downtown.
5:30 PM: Meet any latecomers in the Great Hall of Union Station.
Walk to Blue Line stop at Clinton, ride the Douglas "L", return downtown
Dinner at Greek Islands
Visit Sears Tower Skydeck
Saturday, September 1st:
7:00 AM: Meet in the Great Hall. Walk over to Lou Mitchell's for breakfast.
8:30 AM: Depart for Railfan Day at Illinois Railway Museum! (For those who are driving and can offer rides, street parking near Union Station shouldn't be a problem on a Saturday morning.)
12:00 PM: Meet at Depot Street trolley stop for a guided tour by IRM board member and fellow SubTalker Frank Hicks
Return to city whenever we run out of things to do at IRM or get kicked out, whichever comes first.
Dinner at Tedino's, an excellent pizzeria close to my apartment.
Get-together at my apartment in Edgewater.
Sunday, September 2nd:
Meet in the Union Station Great Hall at 10:00 AM
Railfanning on the "L" -- Specific routes to be decided by group.
Possible short trip on Metra Electric if there's interest.
Dinner at a fine local resturant to be decided.
Monday, September 3rd:
Meet in the Union Station Great Hall at 10:00 AM
More sightseeing / railfanning on the "L"
Say goodbye, check-out, return to wherever you came from.
That's it for now... Only two more weeks! As always, let me know if you have any questions.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sorry I'm not up on my railroad abbreviations, but by IRM, are you talking about going to the Railway museum in Union, Illinois? If so, I live only about 10 minutes from there! How many people do you expect to be in your party? Sadly I won't be able to do any of the other stuff because that is the weekend of the Taste of Melrose Park...and I usually spend all weekend there. It is the best of the "Taste's" in the Chicago area.
David or anyone else, if you are going to Union, I can help you out if you have any questions.
Yes, IRM = Illinois Railway Museum. You're more than welcome to hook up with us at the museum. I'm not sure exactly we'll be arriving there, but I'd guess about 10:00 AM or so (assuming we leave downtown at 8:30 and spend 90 minutes on the road). However, at noon we'll be meeting with Frank Hicks at the Depot Street trolley stop. That might be the best time to hook up with us; any other time just look for a bunch of guys who seem to be having way too much fun playing with trains. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
<< Yes, IRM = Illinois Railway Museum. You're more than welcome to hook up with us at the museum. I'm not sure exactly we'll be arriving there, but I'd guess about 10:00 AM or so (assuming we leave downtown at 8:30 and spend 90 minutes on the road). >>
Shouldn't take much more than an hour from downtown.
90 minutes is a pretty generous estimate, but better safe than sorry. I usually go there in the early afternoons, and traffic on the outbound Kennedy is a bitch as far as O'Hare, plus some pockets of heavy traffic on the Northwest Tollway as far as Route 53. Must be everybody heading to Woodfield Mall or IKEA for the day. It usually takes me about an hour to get to IRM from my place, but I live a few miles north of downtown. The traffic should be much lighter that early in the morning, but all it takes is one wreck or stalled car to turn the expressway into a parking lot.
-- David
Chicago, IL
BTW, as per your earlier post (with the revised itenerary), I am most definitely not a board member! I don't want to get in trouble here by impersonating one! However, I do know most of the nooks and crannies of IRM, especially the Electric Car Department.
Also, meeting at noon at Depot Street is fine; I had thought we were meeting somewhere else, so I'm glad you mentioned this. If there's any other way I can help, just let me know.
Joe P: you're a railfan who lives just minutes from IRM and you don't know much about the Museum? Shame!!
8-)
I haven't been there in about 10 years, maybe even longer. When I was a kid I must have been there at least a hundred times with my dad, but that was so long ago it is kind of hazy. I think my dad used to be a member or something because he had a caledar hanging in his office from the place. I remember every spring I would look at the color codes and pick the dates I wanted to go. I still go Union a few times a year to go to the delicious buffet at the Wild West Town. If you've ever eaten there, you know what I'm talking about!
The reason I wasn't positive about what IRM stood for is because (which is probably the same for you as a kid) when I was a kid, there was nothing else of interest to me within about 50 miles. So my dad and I just called it "The Museum".
Oops, I stand corrected. Since you were on your way to the board meeting last weekend, I just assumed you were on the board. My mistake.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Last Sunday I was at Rockaway Park to board the (S) Rockaway Park shuttle to shoot the D-Types running on the special. I noticed eight car R-44s on the shuttle. People leaving Rockaway Park could have filled one of those eight cars.
Why doesn't the TA run a four car consist on the Shuttle ? Looks like some sort of overkill.
Bill "Newkirk"
They run 8 cars in the summer for the beach crowrds. Then back to four cars at night.
Yup, and until 2 years ago, when C service was expanded to weekends in Brooklyn, this line ran all the way to Euclid Ave. I believe it's the last of any "seasonal" service changes by the TA in it's history.
The shuttle has not run to euclid in over 3 years.
Why don't they run it to Rockaway Blvd? At least then transfer will be available to / from the Lefferts trains as well. They could run to Rockaway Blvd, discharge, and run lite to 80st where they will relay on the middle track (5/6 track).
They have a relay track north of Broad Channel
I know that. Back in the day they used to turn trains at Euclid Ave on summer weekends so that Rockaway Park customers would have access to both A trains. S trains turned in the express tracks while the A used the local tracks. When the C got extened to Euclid on Weekends, the A had to use the express tracks while the C used the local, thereby eliminating the possibility of turning the S there. I'm suggesting they turn at 80st middle so that Rockaways customers on summer weekends get the same service increase they used to get before the C was extended to Euclid.
Shuttles and A's from Mott Ave. are carefully scheduled to minimize the wait a shuttle passanger would have to deal with at Broad Channel anyway.
It did in 1998, the last summer of weekend local-only A service on Fulton St. Expanded C/A express service was introduced shortly after the Williamsburgh bridge closure in 5/99. Shuttle service to Euclid on weekends in the summer then became impossible.
In the skip stop procedure do trains run quickly by the stops they skip or do they slow to 15mph?
They slow down.
Peace,
ANDEE
MOST of the time they slow down. I've been on some skip-stop J/Z trains where the T.O. just flys right by the station at more than 15 MPH.
The trains slow down during a skip stop procedure.
TA Rule 39i states:
The train will enter the station being bypassed at the normal speed for the area: The train operator will then begin to decelerate gradually, ensuring that the train does not go faster than fifteen (15) miles per hour as it leaves the station. The tain operator must blow the horn or whistle at the entering and leaving end of the station.
The horn is (usually) blown on battery runs, but I've never heard the horn used in regular skip-stop (1/9 and J/Z) service.
Most J/Z trains bypass stations like say cypress hills very slowly because they have those red over white signals. some timer signals between Cresent street and Cypress hills are set at 6 seconds according to J motormen i know. however on the A division, i have never seen a Motorman slow down to bypass a station unless he absolutely has 2. On a northbound 1 train, i remember a Motorman skipping 145, making his next stop 157. He blew thru 145, clear signal after getting out, so he didn't touch his brake handle one time, then blew his horn, and that is it. I hate to say it, Most motormen do not follow this rule unless there is a timer enforcing it.
P.S i like it Long island Railroad on Long beach branch trains when they bypass rosedale they don't slow down a bit! they blow their horns(Not all of then do) ansd go right through. this is why LIRR cautions people from standing at edge of platforms, from turbulence of passing trains............
On a northbound 1 train, i remember a Motorman skipping 145, making his next stop 157. He blew thru 145, clear signal after getting out, so he didn't touch his brake handle one time, then blew his horn, and that is it.
And you must have felt really lucky! There is a switch north of 145 St on the northbound that is posted at 20 mph and most of us take it at 14 so we don't put the train on the ground. Anyone who blew through 145 St without touching the brake is a certified jacka$$ and should be removed from service.
I just put up my Second Avenue Plan for the web it is around 25 pages in length. It is the X7 draft, so please read it or some of it then pound away with the comments. I want people when reading it to find the mistakes or parts that dont make sense. Cause I want the next draft to be perfect that I and rail fans know will be great. So the link is http://www.beaconschool.org/~crivera/2001secondplan/index.html then click on the Main Plan on the links page, or in the part where Imn the X7 draft area.
Christopher Rivera
This will be very exciting, if it were to be built. Just out of curiousity, i say take it to the project planners at the MTA and see what they think of it. And if they were to build all of this, how long do you think it will take to build this? I would guess 20 or so years.
No, I projected 10 to 12 years. It took 4 years to build the IRT. Why would 1 trunk line take so much time? Today there is alot of red tape and thats what makes a project take a long time. I plan to cut the red tape quickly to aviod the politics. So if I make great strides then maybe by 2003-2005 constuction will begin and by 2015-2017 it will be totally completed. But there can be very little politcs, they will slow it down thats why if everything gets accepted I will push for complete/ quick constuction and a bonus if completed before the deadline.
Cheaper and quicker to build a time machine and get some of the 1904 workers here. They could probably do it in 4 years without 145 coffee breaks, lawsuits for stubbed toes, 6 month vacations, workers comp and all the other Union nonsense. Don't get me wrong. We need unions, but the ones that exist today are a bit ridiculous.
That plan would work only if the 1904 workers could work under 1904 work rules.
David
And if they agree to die at 1904 rates.
Tony, if we build a time machine, who needs the Second Avenue Subway?
We just bump off Hyland in 1900, he never becomes Mayor and the IND doens't get built, the el's don't come down and the IRT & BMT get a 10 cent fare that keeps them out of bankruptcy.
What's neat is that if you bump Hylan off with a gun that doesn't exist in 1904, you can do it in broad daylight in view of 500 witnesses. You zip back to 2001, the cops have a dead body in the morgue with a bullet in it from a gun that doesn't exist and history changes. Since Hylan is a key point in time, history changes from 1900 on. And, only you know what really happened.
Wouldn't that be a paradox?
Wouldn't that be a paradox?
No, that would be what you call two physicians.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
I guess that I have watched Milleniumtoo often!
Not necessarily. The neat thing about time travel is that if you start in 2001 and go back to, say 1900, you can bring anything with you that you have in 2001. Things like digital watches and cameras tend to attract attention, since they don't yet exist, along with synthetic clothing. If you go back, you dress for the destination year. Things like guns can be hidden in clothes, both in 2001 and 1900. A bullet fired from a gun made in 2000 will kill as surely as a Colt .45 that was made in 1897.
Imagine, you bump off Hylan, the cops have a body in the morgue with a bullet in it that can't possibly exist. The body is, of course, very dead.
It may be a paradox, but that's what time travel does. Geordie LaForge once said "Time Travel gives me a nosebleed."
This is still a paradox. You left from the Hylan was the mayor world, but returned to the Hylan died in 1900 world. Would this change the past, or is the past unchangeable? If the first one, why did you bother to leave to kill Hylan, what motivation would you have? Where would you know that it was you? If the latter, then what about the Dan Lawrence of the second world, would he be in conflict with you?
All difficult questions.
You need to fully understand time travel. If you have access to a time machine (see H.G. Wells), you can travel to any time. If you go to the past, you (the late 20th Century born American Pig) can do anything you set your mind to, including bumping off Hylan before he becomes Mayor. If you kill him in 1900, history changes from that instant on. BTW nobody knows what happened, life goes on, but not the way we know right now.
i.e, the els don't come down, the IND never happens, and the City allows IRT & BMT a fare that allows the companies to stay out of banruptcy.
If you are not a descendent of Hylan, absolutely nothing happens to you. While you are in 1900, you are not in 2001 at the same instant in space-time.
There's no "second world" involved. Space-time is a single entity, from the beginning of creation to now (and beyond now).
But what about your own past. If you go back to the past and fix the world to your satisfaction, then you would be born in this "perfect" world. Why would you then want to go back to the past and fix it?
How about preventing World War I?
Seems you missed a bit of the post about time travel and "Focal Points in Time" All through time there are Focal Points, which are points where (mostly) one person did something that changed the time stream (or history, if you prefer) and a major change that affected everything after that point occured. Frank Sprague, for example is a Focal Point in Time, since his perfection of the electric streetcar and multiple-unit control changed the world in a major way. Eliminate Frank, and the streetcar as we know it, and the subway as we know it won't happen if he's not around. Same thing as discussed about Hylan.
World War I (and II) were not the result of one person's actions. If you prevent Archduke Ferdinand's assination in 1914, the war would have probably happened anyway.
There is no "perfect world". If Hylan is killed, certain things that happened because of him don't occur. This includes what happens to the IRT/BMT, and the non-existance of the IND. Time is very fluid and everything we do affects the time stream. We just aren't aware of it.
The 1989 movie Milleniumreally goes into the effects of time travel.
It's enough to give you a headache trying to keep track of what might or might not happen from changing history.
As I quoted Geordi LaForge, "Time Travel always gives me nosebleeds."
The really wierd part of time travel and changing the time stream (History) is that if you do it, nobody except you knows anything was changed.
Wellll---how about the Little Flower - Laguardia - he hated the els and trolleys you know - "too old fashioned" --like love & marriage - you "cant have one without the other..."(from the song) - Hyland just started the anti-transit stance because he was fired by the BRT for "improper" train operation
on the Lex El (I believe) around a curve - he had a grudge but Laguardia had a crusade...a mission...
(hey, Karl B---how about it !!)
I sort of liked Fiorello!
Didn't he read the comics to the kids over the radio during the newspaper strike?
Chris.
Very nice. A real dream. Hope one day we at least get to see the Second Avenue subway, at least the New York City part.
Keep up the good work.
Let's remember---Routes 8 to 14 are signed up on R62s and possibly R142s as supplements to other lines, they have a green 8, red 9 {in service}, green 10, purple 11, red 12, red 13, green 14
Chris,
To get a better look at your 2nd Ave. subway plan, I grabbed a street map of NYC and drew all your routes on it in marker.
I would have continued to draw all the current subway lines for geographical comparison, but that would have taken too long.
But just looking at the map like this, I am thoroughly impressed, even more than I was before. Youve got beautiful direct routes and efficient land usage for the different lines, and everything.
The second avenue subway is considered a legend even thogh it never was buit.So I decided to do some reaserch and found out tat many factors prevent the subway line to be built.
1.The lack of funds prevented the line from being built ever since the 3rd avenue line was demolshed.
2.The second avenue line never was planned for other bouroughs which brought protest against the line.
3.Eviromental factors has slowed down the partial elevation of this line.
4.There is no acess to Richmond county(Staten Island) or any airports which would create more of an income than expenses.
5.The 3rd avenue line was demolished too soon.
I am currently planning a drawing of the second avenue line with these facts.Here are my current plans
Manhatthan:2 express and local tracks running from 125th street to Whitehall street with 4 subway lines(3 which arent currently subway ilnes.2 which never been subway lines)the W serving local stations from 125 street to 72nd street then going into a portal to connect with the 63 street tunnel eventually running on its current line.
T which runs from 125th to Whitehall making local stops into Staten Island.The X will run from 125th from the Bronx to Whitehall making express stops, and the U which would run from 125th and Lexington avenue to Grand street going into Brooklyn.
Brooklyn:The U will run from Grand street to Starret city making local stops.Possible connection to the A in Queens.
Queens:Current plans are to go to Laguadia airport local.No other information.May be connection with A.
Staten Island:The X will run out of Whitehall street to the Staten Island mall(possibly to Tottenville beach.
The Bronx:There are no current plans for the Bronx.
If you have any comments to give me then I'll be happy to take them.
Looks and reads remarkably like Chris Rivera's 2nd Avenue Subway.
Did you enjoy his post?
Interesting that you are using the 63rd Street Connector like the original plan had it. I didn't like the 63 Street Connector I was only having it connected in case of emergency. You're going by the original 2nd Avenue Plan and you have done your research. I give you credit and I wish you luck on your work.
The Bronx:A possible extension on the X from 125th and second avenue to Co-op city.
Can you please give some of your sources that you used for research material?
You wonder why I was asking all those questions on Manhatthan and elevated lines?
That does not constitute as 'research'
Hi--Mr X-2001
To comment on your posting and shed some info re:
(Numbers 1 and 2 )
Incorrect - As early as 1941 shortly after the 1940 opening of the Dyre IRT "shuttle" on the ex-NYW&B mainline above E. 180th st...there were
2nd Ave. subway discussions both in public and NYCTS
(later renamed NYCTA) circles. Two tenative, speculative plans (among many) were to use the former NYW&B route from just east of its former
E.132nd Street Bronx terminal in the NHRR freight yards - to surface from a river tunnel and curve easterly along the NYW&B route to its connection with the NHRR-NY Connecting RR Hell Gate bridge
tracks at grade in the lower Bronx. The NYW&B used the two westerly (of 6 total) tracks exclusively along with NHRR freight to the Harlem River terminal
freightyards. Rehabilitation of all stations (Port Morris at appx. E 138th St.) up thru the E.174th
st. branch-off of the NYW&B from NHRR to the E.180th St (ex NYW&B) IRT Dyre shuttle terminal station - and related third rails, track and signals - would be required. The NYW&B R-O-W was fully intact in 1941 along that route. The line would continue up the steel viaduct to E. 180th St. ex-NYW&B station, and from there north to Dyre Ave. terminal.That line was already fully rapid-transit operational. Only the plaform extenders installed in 1940 to the ex-W&B stations - installed for narrower IRT el cars - would have to be removed. Thus the platforms would again be back to 10' car widths used by the ex-NYW&B cars and IND-BMT cars. WWII (Jan 1942) precluded
any further plans--shelved indefinitely until after the war (mid 1945). After the war, plans to remove the IRT Manhattan 3rd Ave el (and Bklyn Lexington Ave el--BMT) resurged and many newer plans including the NYW&B route were drawn up. By 1955 there was appx. $500 million earmarked for transit improvements including the proposed 2nd Ave. subway per its many route proposal options. The BMT Lex el did come down in 1951 - but the 3rd Ave El was retained pending these multiple, continuing 2nd Ave. subway route studies. One plan was to connect the subway to the Pelham (#6) line either around 138th street via tunnel -or below Whitlock Ave. where the subway exits to elevated and the subway portion
parallels very closely the ex-NYW&B / NHRR mainline at just below railroad grade. I presume connection
there would be a tunnel opening a few blocks south of the IRT portal along the NYW&B line route - under
Bruckner Blvd, and into the #6 tunnel just below its Whitlock portal.
In any event, the powers that were in 1955 closed the 3rd Ave. El May 12th, and earmarked a big portion of the set-aside improvement funds into new cars and station extensions and new signals and track and electrical improvements on the IRT Lex Line to handle the el passenger fares to the Lex Line.
The NYW&B route was abandoned as it was easier to
connect the IRT Dyre Line to the IRT mainline at E. 180th Street via a relatively inexpensie ramp (used today) by 1957-58 to give Dyre passengers a DIRECT ride to the Lex Line on the east side - something the 2nd Ave. subway would have made redundant via the ex-NYW&B original route plan. Purchase of the
NHRR 2-track ex-NYW&B R-O-W and total rebuilding
of it from Harlem River to E.174th St---as opposed to the aforementioned flyover ramp construction - was not cost effective to the end result. Neither was the Pelham Line connection - those passengers
already had an East side access via the #6 & Lex
route--a 2nd Ave. route would have duplicated that established, satisfactory service.
( 3 )
Could you PLEASE qualify your continual statements about Enviornmental Factors in most of your
explanations--or be more specific as to what, how and where these "factors" come into play re: your texts. Its becoming to look like a "stock phrase" with no connective substance.
( 5 ) Correct - the 3rd Ave. El could have lasted
at least 5 more years with rudimentary maintenance to "buy more time" re: the subway developments for 2nd Avenue - it was hastily and prematurely removed
via a bait and switch political move re: promising
East siders a definite subway. As history shows -
almost 50 years later (ie: 1955-2005) no subway operation on 2nd Avenue - most of my lifetime waiting for the "promise" re: the el demise of '55. (Hey, Myrtle and the Q types lasted until 1969 !!!)
Why - because the TA WANTED and NEEDED it to for the public good of the area..a reverse mentality re: the 3rd Ave. El & 2nd Ave. subway I proffer.)
On the surface of it, I have followed your posts and the "responses" of most subtalkers re: same...and it appears that, not withstanding multiple literacy and spelling errors - there seems to be intelligence
trying to come forward. Perhaps you type TOO fast - or your keyboard "misses, skips" certain alphabet
letters - and/or you DO NOT proof-read and spell-
check/correct your work. Some friendly suggestions
especially for someone who proposes to be a
computer literate individual and a softWARE
designer by trade and wants to start a new software business. I am FAR from computer literate - but I AM
literate and do try to catch MOST of my keystroke
misses or just stupid spelling errors on my part.
Thankfully I can type fast - have done so for 45 years when all we had was "typewriters".
I have no comments on the following numerical topics you propose as I have no expertise on curent 2nd Ave. subway plans, routes, branches & extensions - but I do find your comments interesting if not grandiose (ie: Tunnel from South Ferry to St. George
-- l920's plans called for a Narrows tunnel via a shorter underwater route connecting the BMT and SIRT
and tunnel headings on (I think the BMT 4th Ave. Bklyn line) for such a route were built - Paul Matus
and the BMT fellows can detail that for you - I am an IRT man per se!!) I think the location (not sure for a fact) of the stub tunnel headings are in the general vicinity of the former 69th St Ferry- Verrazano-Narrows bridge region - again BMT guys have this on the tip of their memories,,,,)
Hope my info and friendly imput is useful to you
Regards - Joe !
In response to (1): In fact, the 2nd Avenue Subway was funded *twice*, once shortly after WWII, and once in the early 70s (when the few sections of which currently exist were built). The city's financial crisis in the early 70s saw the second round of funds earmarked for the 2nd Ave subway diverted to other city agencies.
Joe@NYC Model Transit's reply to your post details the 40s & 50s goings on.
Since your research failed to turn up any of this info, I'm skeptical as to the remainder of your posting...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Have to AGREE WITH YOU "Rednoise" -- I was trying to be informative and polite in my post to Mr. X-2001 and nontheless - he should do more research like young Chris Rivera does - and more thought imput - before he (Mr.X-2001) writes...dont you agree?
I really think he IS trying - but he should skip the Q&A format also - it just adds more confusion...your imput on this similar to mine?
Regards - Joe
I've uploaded my photos from my recent trip to Boston and Maine. Go to Keystone Pete's Trolley Photos and follow the links.
(I just finished putting them up, so if there are any bad links, let me know. Also, with a dial-up connection during busy times like right now, Sunday, the pages may take a few minutes to load completely. God knows it took forever to upload the images!)
If I can find the time, I may write up a trip report to accompany them. There were just too many to do it this weekend. As always, email me with any comments or corrections.
Keystone Pete
Pete, nice shots... I missed you by four days at Seashore... was there the 31st. Should have my film back in a day or two but it will be at least the weekend before I get things scanned and posted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was riding the PATH train to World Trade Center from Newark with my dad yesterday (Saturday), and I noticed some odd, interesting things:
1) I spotted 'back alleyways' and door entrances well-lit in the Hudson-tube just before entering WTC on the inbound track.
2) (I knew this before) Storage tracks on the INTERIOR platform of Journal Square for off-duty trains, and the Journal Square storage area (anyone know what it's called?)
I also spotted PATH's PA-1 cars (the first of the pack) #100, and #101 at Harrison station in the afternoon (not on the same trip).
3) (Everyone may know this but PLEASE respond!) Green lights on PATH. I've been noticing them for several weeks that I have ridden on them. The green lights turn on once the train stops or reaches 5mph. When it departs, they turn off once the train hits 10mph.
Green lights are NOT found on PATH's PA-1 cars. When off-duty in storage locations (WTC, Newark, Journal Sq., and PATH storage & maintenance facility near NWK), the green lights remain on.
4) (Normal condition) Third rail segments that are about 10 feet long (they look like miniatures) to accomodate the many track switches at Journal Square.
5) (Normal condition but PLEASE respond!) Numerous SPARKS between the wheel and the third rail. Anyone know WHY?? (This also goes with why there are sparks also between the pantograph and the catenary wire on HI-V NJT and Amtrak trains.)
Today, I also spotted an Amtrak train (long locomotive #604 connected with #608, carrying only about 6 cars) trundle slowly down track #14 of NYP. While it was going to the front, I heard and saw a SHOCKING CRACKLE between the #608's pantograph and the low catenary wire. I thought the ceiling would burst. The light rays were yellow (because some signs blocked the view). Anyone know what caused this and why there are two long locomotives (What are they called?) for only carrying 6 cars of weight? (When only one of them can pull an entire Crescent train at a good 75-80mph.)
Answers will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
: )
Railfan Pete.
>>3) (Everyone may know this but PLEASE respond!) Green lights on PATH. I've been noticing them for several weeks that I have ridden on them. The green lights turn on once the train stops or reaches 5mph. When it departs, they turn off once the train hits 10mph.
Green lights are NOT found on PATH's PA-1 cars. When off-duty in storage locations (WTC, Newark, Journal Sq., and PATH storage & maintenance facility near NWK), the green lights remain on.
<<
The green lights indicate that the air brakes have engaged. They go out when the brakes are fully released.
Back when PATH was the Hudson Tubes, the largest office building in the world was on top of the downtown terminal. Only it wasn't the World Trade Center, it was the Hudson Terminal. The platform configuration was slightly different thus the alleyways and doorways at the WTC stop today.
The Amtrak thing might have been a work locomotive towing a dead one.
After 1962, the biggest office building in the world became the PanAm Building at 200 Park Avenue.
Then in 1970 the World Trade Center opened, and it remains.
"After 1962, the biggest office building in the world became the PanAm Building at 200 Park Avenue"
I do believe that until recently the PENTAGON was the bigest building in the world, now that honor is held by the twin towers in Mylasia.
Elias
The Pentagon covers the largest area.
The World Trade Center has the most space.
The Petronas Twin Towers are the tallest.
Looks like it is a matter of "Define Big" : )
Elias
The Pentagon covers the largest area.
The World Trade Center has the most space.
The Petronas Twin Towers are the tallest.
The largest building in the world by volume is the Boeing assembly plant in Everett, Washington. I drove past it on Saturday morning, alas the public tours are offered only on weekdays. Its floor space is something like 3.5 million square feet, huge but by no means a record (several auto assembly plants, among others, are bigger). But the building is over 100 feet high, much higher than most other industrial buildings, so in terms of cubic feet it's numero uno in the world.
I've read that the BNSF spur line into the Boeing building has the steepest grade of any non-cog railway in the United States. Couldn't find it, unfortunately.
"The Petronas Twin Towers are the tallest."
Yes, counting the decorative and *empty* beehive spire doohickeys at the tops of the towers. But if you count what owners, tenants, and visitors really care about -- how many floors can be occupied, and how high up can one stand indoors (highest occupied floor) -- Sears Tower in Chicago is still the tallest building in the world.
The Petronas Twin Towers are the tallest.
Yes, counting the decorative and *empty* beehive spire doohickeys at the tops of the towers. But if you count what owners, tenants, and visitors really care about -- how many floors can be occupied, and how high up can one stand indoors (highest occupied floor) -- Sears Tower in Chicago is still the tallest building in the world.
The decorative spires on top of the Petronas Towers are meant to reflect some sort of Islamic design motif, or so I've read.
There is a building under construction in Shanghai that will, upon completion in a year or so, be the world's tallest in terms of occupied floors.
There is a building under construction in Shanghai that will, upon completion in a year or so, be the world's tallest in terms of occupied floors.
What about the taller buildings being planned in Chicago, like 7 South Dearborn and Trump Chicago?
There is a building under construction in Shanghai that will, upon completion in a year or so, be the world's tallest in terms of occupied floors.
What about the taller buildings being planned in Chicago, like 7 South Dearborn and Trump Chicago?
"Planned" and "coming soon" are utterly meaningless expressions in the real estate industry. Until construction physically begins, pay no attention to what developers say.
I say this is a matter of not just American pride, but of the pride of the entire developed world.
How can the tallest buildings in the world be in MALAYSIA? Why can't they at least be in Japan, Hong Kong or even Bangkok or Singapore?
Hell, if the new building will be built in Shanghai, then at least the tallest building in the world will be in an important country.
When the building is up, I'll go out and measure it.
Elias : )
>> The platform configuration was slightly different... <<
Slightly different?? Entirely new platforms were built. The old trackways and platforms are now part of a truck loading dock.
All mentioned in Joe Brennan's brilliant abandoned stations list (accessible from this site).
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Peggy has informed me that someone is sending viruses throught rh nycasubway.org e-mail. Her PC is clean. The text reads:
"Hi, How are you? I send this file for your advice."
There are several attachments. One is 2096K- that is the sircam worm. Do not open such an attachment. One person sent the thing seven times using different subjects including one posing as official mail from the ISP. That poster has been reported to the ISP.
Peggy asked me to post this here, since the person(s) sending the virus knew of the site. Most current antivirus software will detect this Sircan worm virus.
To all subtalkers: If you get attachments from unknown people that contain such text delete unopened. The PC you save can be yours!
I have been getting viruses sent to my e-mail. They are comming from real domains, but not from valid accounts so it might not actually be a person at nycsubway.org.
Just what we need, another wacko on the loose!
E_DOG
Norton Anti-Virus has been protecting against this virus since July 17. Subwaybuff speaks the truth about this one. If you have a anti-virus program, keep it updated frequently. If you don't, GET ONE ASAP!! and keep it updated.
No one should be sending email FROM nycsubway.org-- only a very few contributors have email addresses in that domain and they are solely FORWARDING addresses. However Peggy has such an email address and she may have received a virus SENT to it. The Sircam virus works by searching address books and web browser caches for email addresses and since her name and address appears on many pages on this site it is not unlikely that there may be many instances of the virus sending email to her address. (I must have gotten over a thousand so far but I filtered it out a long time ago.)
I had the pleasure of having to clean out a couple of computers back on the 24th after someone at the office opened a file with the virus (which also re-directs all of your desktop icons to run through the virus ones you've clicked on them after infection, so those also have to be deleted and re-created). Here's the Norton site for the Sircam fix:
Symantec W32.Sircam.Worm@mm Fix tool
...I came across an E with that very same text...
........only it was written in SPANISH.
I decided to go railfanning after going to the museum. To get to the museum i took the E. Funny enough, in the 53rd street tube, there was a signal that would usually say yellow over illuminated S. Funny the bulb was blown out! so all there was was a S on the signal. According to MTA safety rules the Motorman was supposed to call that in as a defect, then proceed with restricted speed with extreme caution to the next signal. Anways he just acted like all was well.
I decided to go railfanning after going to the museum. To get to the museum i took the E. Funny enough, in the 53rd street tube, there was a signal that would usually say yellow over illuminated S. Funny the bulb was blown out! so all there was was a S on the signal. According to MTA safety rules the Motorman was supposed to call that in as a defect, then proceed with restricted speed with extreme caution to the next signal. Anways he just acted like all was well.
highlights of day was when i went to the museum and after giving a tour, A Fellow tour guide who is a former signal tower operator. Not only did he describe what a Tower does, but he had a key, and was able to demonstrate signals! Like he would say "ok Class, look to the right, what does the signal say"? I said it says double red like it always says! But he pulled out the lever, then the signal changed to a bottom green proceed on main route. The best part was learning how a Call on works!!
Jamaica Center was opened in 1988. I remember getting on the E as a kid. Anyways what i always wanted to know is, whos office is the office with the sign that says "Welcome to the E line" "The line of Excellence" Its where alot of Motorman sit. They usually leave that office and a few steps away is the Motormens cab on a train on track one or 2. I don't think that is the crew room, because Not alot of Motormen hang out there. Plus i went inside 179th crew room, and it has lockers, a TV, and it is a staircase from the bathroom. Not to mention what i love about the Crew room, it has the F logo on it. So whos office is that at the End of the platform where the Cab car is, and where is the Jamaica center crew room?
The room you refer to is the E line dispatchers office. There is one common crew room used by crews on the E & J lines located on the lower level. Access is by walking aside the tracks and going thru a door on the left. Same goes from the J line dispatchers office. From the E line we walk down very steep stairs. The male locker room is to the right of the stairs. The female locker room is farther down the tracks. The E line does not have a toilet. It is behind the J line dispatchers office, which, of course, is right under the E line dispatchers office. There is a steep, heavily winding spiral staircase linking the 2 dispatchers' offices. If you ever climbed the spiral staircase leading to the top of the Statue of Liberty, this stircase is 10 times worse although of course shorter in length. No one in excess of 125 pounds will have an easy time of it. We have to sign on and off the payroll and get radio batteries outside the fare control area thru a door next to the newsstand and walk down a long corridor.
Someone told me that the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn actually has two more trackways on the East side of the avenue somewhere between 59th and 95th Streets. They're hidden behind the wall. Is this true or just a rumor? This is on the R line.
This is true. To see them, ride a northbound R from Bay Ridge Ave to 59 St. When you see daylight, look to your right and there they will be.
The BRT was built on one side of 4th Avenue, to include further exapnsion. 4th Avenue is a four lane street, and provisions were made for expansion in the future, a la Staten Island connection (if not at 59/4).
Interesting point is that during construction, which was done at the same time as the LIRR grade crossing elimination project, the 4th Avenue line was placed in an elevated 'tunnel', spanning 65th Street. This is the glimpse of daylight you see, you are actually on a bridge over the LIRR at that point.
YOoooo- Al (I-TI-GUY-SI)
I just noted Mirabella asked about the extra tunnels in the 4th Ave BMT subway on its east side and said "someone told him about it" and wants to know if its a rumor.....funny - a short while before it I posted a response to Mr. X-2001 and mentioned an alternative to his South Ferry/ St. George tunnel he proposes was planned by the BMT in the 20's via a shorter route to Staten Island from the 4th Ave. BMT Subway with tunnel headings installed when line was built. I wasnt sure of exact location but said they were in the section between " the ex-69th St. Ferry to the Verrazano Bridge section of the line" as I
remember seeing the headings some 35 years ago !!
I told Mr. X-2001 to contact "Paul Matus or some of the BMT sub-talk guys" (as I'm an IRT man primarily but love the BMT too) - to get exact details and location ---and an hour or more after MY post about that, Tony M asks for details because he is afraid of what he "heard" from "someone" as being a rumor. I hope he - in a back door way -
wasnt refering to my post to Mr X-2001 re: posting
a (BS) rumor that "someone told him about..."
I dont post rumors--but I find it more than a coincidence as to the timing of my post to Mr. X-2001 and Tony M's question-post shortly thereafter on the identical topic I wrote about to Mr. X-2001
However - I am glad for the sake of my post to Mr. X
and the subtalk board that the tunnel heading topic to S.I. was aptly covered by your reply to Tony---it was also informative to me !!!! Thanks for the info and at least confirms the (my?) "rumor"----
Regards as always - Joe
Joe:
Nope. I didn't even see your post. Oddly enough, though, my friend, Joe Ciccone, was the one who started the rumor. So, wrong rumor, wrong Joe!
Hey---Tony - Thanks for the quick note back...just was concerned - you know - with all the hot collars
flaming up on S/T over the past few days - BTW - you have a website - dont you...a subway website? If it is you ---its a very nice site---caught it a while ago thats why I am not sure if you're the person I am connecting with it---let me know or email me -- but IF YOU ARE - what would be the possibility of getting some inside tunnel shots of the S.I. tunnel headings legally by a TA employee subtalker for
historical record...I dont think they would turn out too well from a moving train...possibly why I (nor anyone I would presume) haven't seen, anywhere, any
photos of this connection---as I posted - its 35+ years since I saw it on my BMT line rambles in the
mid 60"s----Regards - Joe
My site is: Here
YOooo "Tonouche" (Tony!) - I looked up you site via Chen"s website--and found YOUR site - yes it was your
site I saw a week or so ago - very nice graphics...great photos - would love to see more of the (sadly!) East NY Fulton el remnant demolition - I dont get to NY much from Phila these days so I missed being there to record the demolition like I did most other el lines from 1955 up...do you think you could post a few or do you know whose site has some for viewing...PS --keep up the good work.
Did you catch my website ??
What's your site? I may get out to East New York again, as the demolition has progressed. Unfortunatly, it is highly industrial. With the brutal heat, I'd rather wait until it gets a little cooler, as the air out there is bad to begin with. I will post some more pictures as soon as I get them. I actually have a lot more pictures, but I have to upload them.
Thanks for the response Tony -I sent you an email
5:45 AM Tues. w/ my website link.
That is true about the current trackways on the east side of 4th ave. However, there is no proof that two trackways exist on the west side of 4th ave. other than the underground bridge that spans the LIRR between 59 st. and Bay Ridge ave. stations. Two very good friends of mine recently went there and reported that there is no additional trackways on either side of the bridge. Just the bridge itself. This website has wonderful info on the line and how it was built to be a 4 track line in the future. Look at the columns at Bay Ridge ave. and 77 st. stations. 86 st. would have been an express station.
please, what is the location of that website? thanks
4th Ave. Subway
Read Overview, Plannned Expansion to Staten Island and What Makes the 4th Ave. Line Interesting.
Also scroll down to the end for station pictures.
Enjoy.
The Station by Station on that site misses (or ignores) the 25th Street station.
Never mind, ignore my above post, it does briefly mention 25th St.
The trackways are under the west side of 4th Avenue in case the line would have been four-tracked. However, the Dual Contract era plan for the line would not have had the Staten Island branch at 95th Street but under 65th Street, so the 4 tracks would not have been needed for this purpose.
AFAIK, the two other trackways do not exist except on the bridge corssing the LIRR, where they can be plainly seen from passing trains.
I noticed less R-142s on the 6 line this weekend. Is it just my imagination? Maybe they're moving them to the 5 line. I'd love to know when we're going to get them. I heard on the news that the MTA wants to have almost all the Redbirds replaced by the end of 2002. At the current rate, it doesn't seem likely.
The new cars on the #6 line are R-142As, not R-142s. I have not seen any plans calling for R-142As to run on the #5 line.
David
no r-142A's are going to the 5 line. R-142's are going to the 5 line. why there were not a lot running on the 6 i don't know. but, i have been seeing a fair number all weekend. if there is less then these is a really small problem to be fixed.
I noticed the R-142A's seem to be grouped together in the schedule. Maybe I was riding when the R-142As were in Manhattan. I was in the Bronx.
what's the diff between the r142a and r142?
basically:
r-142a=kawasaki
r-142=bomnardier
The front windows of the cars look different. On the R142A, the cab and storm door windows are angled, very similar to the R110A test train, both of which are made by Kawasaki. The R142, made by Bombardier, has larger and rounder cab and storm door windows and looks more like Philadelphia's M4 Market-Frankford El cars than the R110A.
Ther eare other differences, too:
1) The stainless steel sidind on the trains is slightly shinier on the R142As than the R142s.
2) The wondow and door borders are more plain and rough on the R142 than on the R142As.
3) The LED interior signs on the R142As are programmed to change much faster and without a blank sign after each message, unlike othe R142s.
4) The LED exterior signs on the R142As luminate much lighter and without a blank sign after each message, unlike the R142s.
5) On the R142s, there are NO wall advertisements, only the subway map on one end of each wall on each car.
6) In between the cars, the R142As have a light grey all the way down, while the R142s have light grey at the top, then continue down with a dull dark grey.
7) The propulsion feels smoother on R142s, the AC traction motors are different, and the front LED signage is more red on the R142s and more towards orange on the R142As.
8) The prerecorded announcement voices are slightly different. The voice on the R142A sounds more jolly and happy than on the R142As, with a much more realistic tone. On the R142As, I think the voice data file has been copied from the computer of the R110A, since the voices sound familiar.
Well, I can really point out all the differences between the cars, physically, but I won't until next time...
CWalNYC
carlwal@hotmail.com
I noticed that the Bombadiers (142s) are quieter while accelerating and MUCH quieter when stopping. Too bad that the Phelam lines don't have them.
I agree. Was riding a R-142 the other day. Could not hear the motors at all. Much more quiet. Also seemed to be more solid. I always thought Kawasaki was a better subway car, but it seems that Bombardier has improved.
Yep. Probably this is so. I saw long ago an R142 #2 train pull up on the southbound exp platform of 34 St. Penn Station, at the same time I was boarding with my family a Redbird Bronx-bound #2 train. I didn't hear any sound, neither/nor any propulsions, electric motors, or brakes screeching.
FYI: while the R142A has some advantages with the R142's, the R142A's IRT electric motors can be heard. They sound JUST LIKE the motors worked on the R62(A) trains on the #6 line.
I need to spend more time on them, though, to capture more differences.
: )
Railfan Pete.
4) The LED exterior signs on the R142As luminate much lighter and without a blank sign after each message, unlike the R142s.
FYI: R142A trains on the #6 Pelham line DO BLINK when they change signs on their LCD displays. This also happens with the #2 - 7th Av. Express lines.
I've seen an R142 train leave 42nd St. - Grand Central downtown towards Brooklyn Bridge while I was on a #4 Redbird express train. (sorry I don't have either car #'s). Of course it looked normal like a regular R142A. But I saw the #6, and then to the right of it, it said Brooklyn Bridge, then after a few seconds it blinked for a split second and said Lexington Av. Local.
Looks like you've been around a LOT of R142(A)'s to state your differences! (I've only rode the R142(A) once, but I saw it passing by the tubes and from distant places several times)
: )
Railfan Pete.
I've seen an R142 train leave 42nd St. - Grand Central
R142A train... sorry.
Railfan Pete.
there is alot more you are missing. bodywise, the truck/bogies are different structure.(1) Kawasaki's body is made of stainless steel with fiber glass at each end (for some reason it feels flimsy in motion) the bombardier and stainless steel with aluminum (the top end of the front of each car is aluminum) bombardier made after stock 6620 now feature artwork. on the traction motors kawasaki whines out a sound and the bombardier makes musical tones which is quieter also (5 tones. it seems to not be heard inside of the car but it can be if you can synthesize sounds with your ears or listen hard enough)
lets put it it like this the kawaski r142 has its pros and cons and so does the the bombarider r142
excuse the post. i thought you were the other guy.
of course. but, you were getting specific. so, i decided to help you with that.
they are grouped together and because there are alot on the line plus the 6 is a short line. so they are qucker to catch
i think i saw 73 something on the #2 the other day
Please be advised I asked several train operators about the current 10 car # 7 train situation they will run 10 trains at ALL TIMES including rush hours. August 25th 11 car trains will return on a side note R 36 9456 has suffered a fatal fire on its # 2 end I dont know what burned how ever the # 2 truck of this car has already been changed its a dummy truck no eletrical power on it. I guess thats another car for 207 st to strip. Rest in peace R 36 9456 you will be missed :0(
Was 9456's mate, 9457 affected by the fire too? Hmmm, ten-car trains on the 7, just in time for the hotter-than-hell weather in store for this week.
[R 36 9456 has suffered a fatal fire on its # 2 end]
Did that happen at Queensboro Plaza? I was on a 7 train that terminated at 61st Street due to a fire at Queensboro Plaza last Friday.
Thanks for finding out. I have not seen the No.7 since Saturday and hope I don't see it for a long time. Saturday was my 2nd or 3rd day over there and I felt like a fish out of water.
These a AT&T add on TV using a path train for a Chicago Transit. The station looks like Penn Station the Jersey. Anyone else seen the TV add.
Robert
I did. It's a bit odd for SHURE!
What are you trying to say? Shoe? Shirt? Shoot?
Yeah, saw it just this morning....I thought it was Journal Square, though...I'll watch for it again...
Seems more like Oldark to me.
I posted this a long time ago, and don't remember if anyone replied. Probably, I just forgot.
In Jurassic Park 2, Jeff Goldblum is shown riding on a R-44/46/68 at the beginning of the movie, when the jerk makes fun of him. I was wondering:
1. Was the train really moving, or did they do it with sound and visual effects.
2. If it was moving, were the other passengers actors or real passengers who were just invited to be in the movie. (I have heard of producers doing this.)
I know my second question isn't too bright. I don't think Jeff would risk being mugged or maulled by fans on a real subway ride. I'm just curious about how they did it.
Yes the train was moving. I don't know for sure but the use of extras would be normal in that situation. The scene was shot at the Church Ave. Station on a Sunday AM. It was shot using an R-46 4-car unit out of janaica yard.
>>> were the other passengers actors or real passengers who were just invited to be in the movie. <<<
On a union picture, which that was, you can be sure the other passengers were paid extras. If you have ever watched any film making, you have seen that even a simple scene is shot over and over again ad nauseam. Real passengers would not put up with that, and if there were different "extras" in different takes, editing would become an impossible task.
Tom
In New York or L.A. or other larger cities with a union presence, (Philly, Chi, Atlanta), you can bet the extras were hired and paid. If the scene is "large" enough, a certain union-approved percentage of the extras will be non-SAG, yet still paid close to the daily SAG rate, but with no health & retirement, obviously. (Can you imagine the TWU allowing 5% of T/Os to be non-union?!)
Film producers like to take advantage of the fact that young, fresh-faced, wide-eyed, aspiring actors will work for peanuts for "the experience." This comes in especially handy on location in "middle America" where they see no harm in letting mesmerized provincials or local officials walk through a scene for Public Relations cache. This costs them nothing, and the union even has a special "waiver" program, which lets non-union performers appear in this capacity without having to join. The mayor of Peoria gets to "do a movie," and take a job away from a professional, but he doesn't have to pay union initiation fees or dues, and the producer doesn't have to pay his health and retirement. An individual can do this 3 times when uttering even the simplest line, which usually ends up on the cutting room floor anyway. An individual can do this as many times as he wants without speaking.
I'm not in SAG, but were I, this practice would piss me off. You wanna act? Pay your dues, figuratively and literally, and join the union. Otherwise, let a SAG member work. The performers' unions (SAG, AFTRA, and AEA) walk a fine line between making sure at least a paltry contingent of their members work and being negated out of existence. The fact that producers think anyone will be in a movie if given the chance, and the fact that, for young actors, this is true, makes the actors' unions weak at best.
SAG's mission seems to be less about the work and more about finding ways to keep people out of its ranks to save the work for existing members. This, to me, runs counter to the concept of Unionization, whose ultimate goal should be to improve working conditions for more people who are working. And don't wine about paying $10.00 for movie. The cause of that is the astronomical star salaries, which are so outrageous that they may by themselves bust the union.
I have yet to see a way out of this quagmire, save making sure every face in a movie carries a SAG card.
a simple scene is shot over and over again ad nauseam.
You better believe it.
I was the operator for the live streetcar scenes in Barry Levinson's Avalon. We must of done 30 round trips from North Avenue Loop to 28th Street and back in order to shoot the simple scene where the boy is riding on a car, gets off and runs to another car, which then leaves. I beleve over 50 minutes of actual film was shot that night, and less than a minute made it into the finished release.
The streetcar footage in Levinson's was all shot in daylight (I was NOT the operator for that one) and took the entire day. At least our PCC, 7407 got more screen time in that one.
Maybe this was posted on and I missed it (I have been away for awhile), but the G line has something weird going on:
The OPTO seemed to be out of effect this weekend.
4 car trains were still operating, but at the rear cab there was another operator. Oddly, the Rear T/O was not opening up the car doors, but rather the front T/O.
Anyone know why?
How many trains were operating like this? Maybe it was a TSS in the rear if it was just one.
Well, I only saw 2 G trains, but they both had this situation, and at the stations, they opened their windows and looked out until the doors were closed.
transverse cab madness
transverse cab hell !!
eBay item 1175524951; auction closes August 12.
Joe,
Since you post this stuff from time to time, it would help both the people who are interested and you if you learned to post a clickable URL, like this.
Hey Paul, How can I do that on this page. I can do it for my own mail but not on here. Yes, I don't have a dummy book either, Ha Ha!
Thanks!
I just tried to show this to Larry Littlefield in another post, but between the preview and the post, the BB software interpreted my attempt to show the open and close angles to code.
In the following code sample, interpret (( to be a < (shift comma) and )) to be a > (shift period).
((A HREF="http://www.rapidtransit.net"))Description of link((/A)) which produces Description of link. Don't forget the http:// and the quotes.
Thanks Paul, I'll give it a try.
Cool! It worked! Thanks again.
How come you only appear when you have something to sell???
Peace,
ANDEE
We've been through this before. I've told Joe it's ok to post the occasional ad for stuff for sale as long as it's relevant to the newsgroup. Don't go around appointing yourself the Subtalk police; if you don't want to see his posts use your killfile.
I finish the R142 beta train. here's the link to download it from my page.
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/mstsdownloads.htm
OK, so the subject line is a little corny...
My wife and I dropped Jr. off at camp on the 24th and spent the next nine days wandering in Canada and New England. Herewith a brief summary of various rail and transit sights we saw (pictures to follow in a couple of weeks):
East of Syracuse, New York, there is a large collection of miscellaneous old RR equipment visible from the interstate. Not sure exactly what it all is, but some old passenger equipment and what appeared to be a couple of F units were seen.
Smiths Falls, Ontario, has a nice railway museum, including a ride behind a track inspection critter to the end of the line and back. The most interesting car there was a converted sleeper that had seen service for many years as a dental car, bringing dental services to remote areas of Ontario on the Canadian National system. Less than 1 km away from the museum is a bascule bridge over the Rideau Canal that is now permanently in the up position, the trackage having been abandoned about 1979; quite interesting. (And for those with a sweet tooth, Smiths Falls is also the home of Hershey Canada - great tour!)
Ottawa has an interesting busway; we didn't ride it but crossed it on several occasions. There are eight locks at the head of the Rideau Canal that make an impressive sight, as well as numerous bridges across the river to Hull, Québec.
We visited the Canadian Railway Museum south of Montréal. They have a large collection of preserved railway and streetcar equipment, including two of the special sightseeing streetcars built for tourist service in Montréal. One was in service that day so we were able to ride it about the museum. As she did in most places, my wife found a place to sit with her laptop and write while I wandered about. They have an operating turntable and were using it to move a passenger car from one track to another while we were there. Most of the equipment, naturally, is Canadian, but there was at least one English and one French locomotive in one of the barns.
In Vermont, we encountered the tracks of the St. Lawrence and Atlantic; they joined what appeared to be the main line of the railroad once we crossed into New Hampshire. We were going to cross through Dixville Notch so we follewed the main line north and shortly encountered a rail car and locomotive rebuilding facility whose name I don't remember right now (I took photos of the sign, so I'll have my memory refreshed when I get the pictures back). There was a B23-7, apparently ex-Conrail, outside the closed shop building (this was a Sunday), and a couple of other interesting units on a siding. The main line north of this point was used for car storage for the next several miles, boxcars, flats, and tanks punctuated by the occasional grade crossing.
We stayed in Belfast one night and saw (but did not ride, due to time constraints) the Belfast and Moosehead Lake. They have an RDC that is their main passenger vehicle, although there is also a Swedish-built steam locomotive in the engine house.
Maine has a number of interesting bridges that combine highway and railroad use. Some had the RR on the upper level and the highway underneath, while others had the RR on the lower level. One we saw was no longer used as a highway bridge (the highway portion had been removed at one end, that function having been replaced by a parallel high concrete span) but was still in service for rail traffic. This bridge had a vertical lift section in the middle.
Tuesday the 31st found us at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport. Imagine my delight when I found Third Avenue Railway 631 (sister to Branford's 629) by the depot as the in-service car of the day. There were other revenue passengers so I didn't ask for handle time. We didn't arrive until about 1400h so I had only three hours to explore; it's changed a lot since I was last there about thirty years ago.
We also stopped by the Danbury Railroad Museum on our way home; an interesting collection and worth the stop, at least once anyway. The Housatonic has a manually-operated crossing gate near the Danbury station, pointed out by the volunteer guide (we didn't see it in operation).
And we also saw the old stone depot on the L&HR in Warwick, New York (now an architect's office) and a renovated and adapted station in Newton, New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Got my slides back today; unfortunately, the 50mm lens on body #2 (which I used for three out of four rolls) developed a problem that resulted in significant overexposure of all slides taken with that lens (those taken on body #2 with the 35mm or either of my long zooms [100-300 and 350-650] came out OK). So instead of 150 slides to choose from I've only got about 80. Annoying, since I had switched from body #1 (and its good 50mm lens) after the first roll because of a mirror problem on that camera. Oh well... it'll give me an excuse to go back to all these places again :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its hard to believe that in another few weeks Queens Plaza tower will be no more. They are moving all operations upstairs to Queensboro Master Tower which for those of you who do not know is a glorified trailer. It is cramped up there now and they also have the V line super's office there as well. T/O's are now required to punch southbound along the Queens corridor. For those of you that visit Queens Plaza, the areas that have been changed over have the very bright signals in place. The northbound junction at QP that puts together the G and R trains is now on automatic upstairs. The first train that reaches a designated circuit first will get a line up established and the other train will have to wait. It is very slow through the area now. This situation existed before at the 11 st. cut putting the R and N together southbound. Interesting note, on the QBP model board, the lines are labeled. Where the 7 is, where the N is, etc. For the Queens corridor it is labeled E, F, R and Q. How things change.
".......It is very slow through the area now........" Wait till you see how slow it REALLY gets come November when those V trains have to use the interlocking and hold up all the other services!
You also have D10 (Diverging 10MPH) at the Queens Plaza interlocking, new signals, new reverse running signals AND PUNCHES.
What are they going to do with Gap Sheets? Many a time someone would come out of the tower to confirm the train's ID and half of that the tower person would be wrong.
If there aren't any cameras mounted to see the bulkhead signs, I'd say Sister Cleo will be the TW/O in there. And eventually conductors will announce "this is a southbound [] train, next stop somewhere in Manhattan." :)
Sorry, I meant the call letters of the train, Kings Hwy Fox or a Stillwell Fox... They saw the big orange F (then do they test tower folk for color blindness?)
If they don't test the T/O's to see whether they need a dog in the cab with them or not, why test the TW/O's? Nah, my bet is someone in MTA HQ is having fun with a Lionel set and believes that what's on their desktop really IS the subway. :)
Correct. Was told that they are planning to have no one at the plaza. Asking for trouble. For any of you that work the G, you guys know already. They activated the new punches at QP, 1 track. They put new punches at the 4/6 car markers and another at the 10 car marker. No new punch at the 8 car marker for the G's. So they decided to move the 8 car marker to the 10 car marker. Now starts Monday service and they find out that there is no C/R's board for the G's at the new 8 car marker location. Whoops!
where is the 'dinky trailer' - is this the 'tower' at the west end of the the N-7 platform, or something on the mezzanine on the e-f-g-r stop?
speaking of towers, the old tower just beyond 39th on the N closeby is now just a shell. the rest will likely be gone in a week or 2.
Past the south end of the lower level of Queensboro Plaza. It is painted blue. Right before the 7 makes the turn.
The so called "official" report of the angels flight los angeles official webpage reads still as follows :
""We regret to announce that the Angels Flight Railway is
currently closed following an accident on February 1, 2001 that
killed one person and injured seven.
The damaged cars have been removed from the tracks and
the funicular will not be operating until further notice.""
So much for so called OFFICIAL info the truth is the system is still down & not running with no information whatsoever when it
will return not even a rat pissing on cotton noise geeeeeezzz man nothing at all !! { CURSES } ........................
(sigh)
Sounds like a pending lawsuit is holding things up. Probably the lawsuit is preventing reopening of the line because an investigation to see if negligence or bad maintaince was the cause.
Bill "Newkirk"
Five-O
I do not disagree with you there sir however we havent heard anything about that either !! or the NTSB inquiry results
nothing at all. And it would seem that by now something would have been in the news like some UNOFFICAL
pre guestimate report as to what realy happened & why they think this might have whent down !! ( oh well )
@ devils flight ??......lol !!
Quick Questions:
Do you need to be a resident of the 5 boroughs of NYC to qualify for this job? I live in New Jersey.
What are the requirements? When and where is the job posted?
Thanks for any input.
I don't think you need to be a resident, although NYC residents do receive a 5 point residency bonus.
The requirements, if I remember, included being a high school grad, and 4+ years experience in the work force.
As of this moment, the TA is up to #718 on a list of 6,000 candidates for T/O.
Expect the next test to come out in about 4 years.
Thats not true about the 5 points. I'm a resident of NYC and we didn't get anything 5 points I scored a 100 without any points. That might be for other test but not this one
If you remember, when we took the exam, we were told to fill in the bubble for NYC residency for 5 extra points. Who knows if it was actually applied.
BTW- Since you got 100, I assumed you have already been called, and are now on the job. Hope you're having fun.
Hey been on the road for 2 1/2 months now and its great. We finish our break-in time last week now the fun begins. Meaning lots of board and yard jobs.
>>>>>>>Meaning lots of board and yard jobs.
Keep dreaming. You'll be pounding the road 9 times out of 10.
Forget about what types of jobs you'll be getting, just hope that you get the tour that you want.
Hey I want to pound the road trust me. I can't stand sitting around for 8 hours
Enjoy it while you can! Within a year you'll be as miserable as the rest of us after you get your ass kicked by the (s)crew office a number of times.
I believe if you are looking for extra credit points, look for extras for military service served in NYS, up to 10 points. Those credits can be used once during your civil service career.
All NYC Competitive Exams for Civil Service give 5 points for Veterans and 5 additional points (10) for disabled veterans. I doubt anyone claiming disabled veteran status for T/O would pass the physical for this safety sensitive position.
Never heard of points for city residence. Some agencies you must be a city resident within 90-120 days of getting the job.
By 4+ years in the work force, do you mean with the MTA, or any type of a job?
Any type of job.
There are only two requirements:
1) A high school diploma.
2) You're breathing.
I looked in the mta site and can't find anything for T/o position.
There are no RTO open competitive tests scheduled for 2001 or 2002.
Do you need to be a resident of the 5 boroughs of NYC to qualify for this job? I live in New Jersey.
Good tidings, I'm a 'New Jerseyan' too.
I'm not 100% sure, but you can be if you go to this site:
www.mta.nyc.ny.us Copy and paste this link into your browser, which will bring you to MTA's Official website.
On the left will be golden yellow links, skim down and click on "Employment". It will tell you most everything you will need to be a required employee (engineer) of MTA NYC Transit. Of course, you can apply for other jobs too, like a yard worker, engineer (not for subway, like Metro-North, LIRR, etc.), conductor, etc.
I skimmed through it and I think I remember something about NYC residency for a certain period of time before you become an employee of MTA NYC Transit.
What are the requirements? When and where is the job posted?
Visit this link : www.mta.nyc.ny.us and click on "Employment". It will virtually show you everything step-by-step.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I Live in PA and I work for NYCT.
Are you also a Martz commuter?
NO, I drive almost everyday. The commute is 1HR 30 Mins if you do about 70MPH on a clear road. It can take 1HR 10Min if you go 85MPH most of the way. However if your driving with the Rush Hour it turns into a 2HR drive sometimes 3HRs.
There are many TA workers on the Martz bus. I see them all the time. I love the Poconos, and lived there for a short time, but I found work hard to find.
If I get a job with the TA, I'll move up there for good.
Martz is good when you get a study job but since I'm extra its not good for me. The first bus is 4:45AM. Now if I have a job that starts at 6AM in the Bronx I won't make it. Also the last bus out of NY is the 11PM. Now if your job end after 10:30PM your out of luck. When the day comes when you have your handles you will see alot of AM jobs starting around or before 6AM and lots of PM jobs ending after 10PM. L
For the last time no you don't have to live in NYC to work for the TA
Now you don't really believe that this is the last time, do you?
It's going to be some time before the next test. If it were up to me, the city should give the test, select from the first 1,500 names, and then drop the list and give a new test. This way the city will select from those who scored highest, and will pick those likely to be the best for the job.
For example, the current list is 6,000 long, and they are up to number 718. I just don't think that those who ranked 5,000 or less should be considered, because they obviously did not take the test seriously. Anyone who scores less than a 90 should not be considered.
>>>>Anyone who scores less than a 90 should not be considered.
You shouldn't say that. If the DCAS were to follow that rule of thumb, then there wouldn't be anybody operating the trains.
I personally got an 88 back in 1989 for the C/R and Bus Operator combined test.
And from the rumor mill, the highest score for the recent Train Dispatcher's test was an 84.
Honestly, I just kind of pulled the number 90 from the sky, without any research on the matter. But my point is, there should be tougher standards. FDNY takes only those who score 100 on the physical, and 99 or above on the written. Anything lower, and you have no chance.
But I still think that the TA should only choose from the top percentile (say top 20%-30%) of those on the list. Anything lower just does not make sense to me.
DCAS says 70% is passing, write the test so the people you want (those scoring 90%) only score 70+. There are many tests out there that barely get 70% passing DCAS gives out.
Take a look at the Supervisor of Mechanics test, high score was a 78% with vetrans points.
Make the test harder, don't change the citywide rules that you need a 90% to pass.
The T/D test was on a scale of 1-85 not 100. There are 15 pts left for time in.
If 84 includes the longevity points, ouch.
I got a 96 on the CR test in '93 and a 91 on the TO promotional. That put be at #800 on the CR list and #46 on the TO list. As for the TD test, I just passed with 24 wrong.
>>>>>>>As for the TD test, I just passed with 24 wrong
Damn! It doesn't get any closer than that. 24 was the cutoff.
Of course you know that if the rumor going about (only 40 people passing) is false, then you and I can kiss the TD job goodbye. I got 21 wrong myself.
1988 Combined Bus Op/CR test I got a 94% my list number was 2,496. I got called for Bus Operator in 1991 but did not have my CDL. Got called for C/R in 1993 (just as it expired) but didn't want to take the pay cut.
There is a derailment on the LIRR Babylon Branch at Amityville. Details to follow........
WCBS-880 is reporting that it was a non-passenger carrying train and only one set of wheels left the tracks.
It's interesting that sometimes things conspire to make your life easier. This AM I was going to catch the 7:03 from Rockville Centre to Penn. If I take that train, I'm usually in my office (Midtown east side) at about 8:00. Instead, as I arrived at the station I caught a train that was running about 30 minutes late. As a bonus, this train stopped at Woodside, where I made a perfect connection for the 7 express and then the N at QBP -- putting me in the office 10 minutes earlier than usual.
I'm probably the only person who ended up better off because of the derailment.
CG
Unaware that anything was amiss, about 10:30 a.m. I drove north on County Line Road (between Nassau and Suffolk counties) to find much fuss on the LIRR over the road. I could not tell in which county the derailment happened. For a while, a drab blue-and-white switcher was on the eastbound track in Massapequa around 10 a.m., but I thought that might be from the NY&A. However, it was an m-u that derailed.
What caused it? Any info.?
: )
Railfan Pete.
As much as I dislike unofficial news, the best I can do is report what a trainman heard this morning. According to the trainman (with whom I actually spoke), a light train derailed when it dropped a traction motor.
If so, this is a very serious event - especially at 60 or 70 MPH. Back in the 1980s the TA had a rash of these incidents due to some defective motor nose bolts. A massive inspection was undertaken and the problem went away. If the LIRR traction motors are like NYCT traction motors (And I have no reason to suspect that they are different) then the motors have safety hangers. These are ears that ride the axle and support the motor if the nose bolts fail. For the ears to be worn away to the extent that the motor completely dropped (if, indeed, that report is correct), then that motor would likely have been dropped for a significant period of time before today's incident.
Train dude - If you go to MN's open house, they useually havbe a few trucks on display, and I'm sure being in your position, you'd be able to get a closer look at them too. I'm not sure exactly how the motors are mounted, but I know it varies between the different M cars, slightly.
As for this happening, it's not the first motor drop I've heard of on the LIRR. From what I've been hearinmg through various pipelines (all unofficial) is that the M-1's are effectively shot, bodies, trucks and all.
I've heard essentially the same thing and for those of us who use the LIRR, if the M-7s are significantly delayed, it'll be 1968 all over again with massive cancellations and short trains. As I said, dropped motors are not a major event until they drop out of the truck as is reported today. Perhaps a trip to hillside is in order to see what the real deal is.
BTW: Phil, I still a schematic close to the one that you are looking for. It's just too large to copy on my copier. Suggestions?
/*BTW: Phil, I still a schematic close to the one that you are looking for. It's just too large to copy on my copier. Suggestions?*/
Hmmm......
Is there any wasy way to "segment" the thing up, i.e. take a copy of the left side, the middle, the right side, with just a little overlap so that it can be "reassembled" via an xacto and tape into one schematic?
Or, Kinkos has BIG copiers too I think. I've found them moderately useful at times...
Those M-1's ride rougher than most subway cars except for the Redbirds.
Ouch. When a traction motor drops to the roadbed, that's a
sign of very poor inspection and routine maintenance. As you
said, that hasn't happened on NYCT since the bad old days of the
early 1980s. Unless there is a catastrophic metallurigcal failure,
such as the equalizer bar that snapped under a redbird a few years
ago, these sort of problems can be picked up by simple visual
examination during routine periodic inspection before they become
major failures.
Remember the horrible accident at 30th St. in Philly when a traction motor fell off an M-3 car? This was many years ago, and it claimed lives IIRC. After that they put straps under all the motors, and began
inspecting the fleet a lot more carefully after that. Hopefully, the
M-4's will NEVER have that problem.
Chuck Greene
The LIRR MU cars are *locomotives* are are inspected as such.
Elias
"The LIRR MU cars are *locomotives* are are inspected as such."
And that means exactly what? I didn't mention any LIRR inspection at all in my post. I did say that the TA undertook a massive inspection of motor nose bolts in the 1980s due to a series of derailments due to dropped motors.
I was looking at photos of Vancouvers skytrain, and the cars look a lot like those of Toronto's Scarborough Rapid Transit. I know that Vancouver's is automated, while Scarborough RT is operated by humans, but other than this, are the cars of the same make?
Mark
Yes, the carbodies are the same. Ditto also for the Detroit Peoplemover system.
They were originally made by Hawker Siddeley in Thunder Bay Ontario -- later to become Bombardier/UTDC. Some of the newer Vancouver cars (there are three or four orders, gathering from what is on the builder plates in the cars) and the last one was at Kingston, Ontario (I may be wrong, it's been 3 years since I was on the Skytrain...) The builder plates show the serial, plant built at, and date of delivery.
Are these all linear induction propulsion?
All three systems (Detroit, Vancouver, Toronto) have linear induction propulsion.
-Robert King
Thanks. I was curious since I rode on the Vancouver system but not the others mentioned. There is a nice walkway near the Canada Place pavilion over the freight and Skytrain tracks, so you can see a lot of rail activity.
They are the same, essentially. The Toronto cars have a proper, fully equipped cab while Vancouver and Detriot (as far as I know, haven't actually been to Detroit to see in person) just have a hostler's station type cab.
Thus, in terms of having an operator driving a train of these cars, Detroit, Toronto and Vancouver very basically end up like this without getting into too much detail:
Vancouver, Detroit: Full automation.
Toronto: Semiautomatic - the train beeps, the driver pushes a button, the doors close and the train goes to the next stop and opens the doors. Then when it's time to go, the train will start beeping again. The options to drive the train manually via the in cab signalling or totally manually without signals in Emergency Mode also exists.
-Robert King
Did I miss something? When was the station name on the J changed to Eastern Parkway?
It's been that way for MANY years.
E_DOG
I had not been through it until yesterday. Why then do the maps list it as Broadway Junction?
Broadway Junction was the name on the Canarsie Line signage in my memory. IIRC, the BMT era signs on the J (which survived until the TA's Helvetica-signage era) said EASTERN PARKWAY in large letters, and BROADWAY JUNCTION in snaller type.
Note: once work is finished on the refurbishing of the structure(s) at Boardway/ENY on the Canarsie "L", East New York on the "A" (by fare control), Eastern Parkway on the "J/Z", the entire complex will be referred to Officially as "Broadway Junction" in order to avoid confusion for the ridership.
I would assume that all station platform signage for all 3 lines will be redone to read "Broadway Junction".
BMTman
Do you think they will go to the expense of re-tileing the A line?
Probably not. But I would sermise that pillar name-plates would be redone to reflect the new name.
The tentative schedule for more Acela Express service beween NYP and BOS has been posted on the National Corridor Initiative's Destination:Freedomnewsletter site. Scroll down to the third article to read it.
I skimmed through it, but how come Bush will be unhappy about the AE service? Did I read it wrong? Well, any condensed info. will help.
Also, I saw a 'speeding' Acela Exp. en route to NYP at Metuchen at exp. track #2 at around 7:20AM last Friday. It sounded like it was in my sleep.
(NOTE: At Metuchen, there is a REALLY LOUD track switch that starts right in the middle of the platform. The sound that it makes when the wheels hit them is just a delight! [Although, at times it can be loud])
I noticed an odd thing on the same observation. In my early bird hours, (I stayed and observed trains from the first train (rush hour starts at 6:05AM) at Metuchen (7:00AM) to the NEWARK EXPRESS Comet train to Newark at 8:03AM.)
I noticed that NONE of the AM rush hour trains to NY made it ON TIME at Metuchen EXCEPT for an Arrow III MU which arrived 1 minute early (I like early bird trains), and one other made it on time. There are six AM trains from the start of my observation. The thing is, if a train arrives early, THE ENGINEER DOES EVERYTHING HE CAN TO SLOW IT DOWN! I don't like that routine, but that's what happens. And guess what, that same train that was early, arrives LATE at their terminal station (in this case, NYP). It just doesn't make sense.
By the way, NJT was testing all of its PA system from every local station except Trenton. Coincidentally, PATH had a load of signal problems (therefore no trains are running), so the PA advised that all travelers stay on the NJT train into NY and then go from there.
It was a great time. Although, ALL 3-4 Washington bound AMTRAK trains on exp. track #3 NEVER MADE IT PAST 50mph AT METUCHEN! I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHY!
What also bugs me is that AMTRAK's work crew and their trains have blocked off a section of local track #4 past Newark Penn Sta. WHAT IS WRONG WITH AMTRAK? THEY'VE CLOSED IT OFF FOR 2 WEEKS AND I DON'T KNOW WHY REPLACING A SECTION OF TRACK AND REPLACING THE ROCKS THERE TAKES MORE THAN 2 WEEKS! IS AMTRAK SLEEPING OR SOMETHING?
This gets ALL NJT trains LATE to their service because they need to keep a slow speed limit to the track switch right adjacent to the Hunter Connection for the Raritan trains.
Well.... Responses would be GREATLY APPRECIATED.
: )
Railfan Pete.
"I skimmed through it, but how come Bush will be unhappy about the AE service? Did I read it wrong? Well, any condensed info. will help."
It didn't say Bush was unhappy about the Acela Express but with the railroad retirement bill now winding through Congress.
I think there's an error on the Web site's tentative schedule. I suspect 2172's times should be PM vs. AM, as there's already a 7 AM departure (and PM would fit the numbering scheme as well).
great. now im going to have to ask my dad o go out to Worcester or Boston.
There are two option orders to the R142 and one I believe to the R142A. All R142As as said before go to the 6. How is the R142 going to work. Before the primary order which goes up to the 6900s is finished, is the 2 going to be all R142 and if so are there going to be cars left over for the 3 and 5 before we start worrying about the option orders? Also, which is scheduled for R142s first, the 3 or 5? I assume the 5 because it has the oldest cars. And are there any proposals as to what year 2002 or 2003 the entire deal will be done? My guesses are:
1) The primary order for the R142s will be finished by the end of 2001 or VERY early 2002 and the 2 line will be all R142.
2) The first option order for the R142s {already accepted} will take place immediately after and by mid-to-late 2002 the 5 will have half R142 half R62. Other cars to go to 3 line?
3) The second option order for the R142s {also accepted} will finish by first quarter 2003 and all cars will go to the 3.
4) 6 line will be all R142A by mid-2002
Please respond.
The 5 line will get the R142 before the 3 line. The 5 line will be all R142. Before all of this happens, the 2 line will become all R142 which is halfway there in the process.
okay im back off vacation and the #2 sould be all r142 by at least december if there sets would stop having problems the #5 sould have r142 when the 2 gets theres the #3 will get the first option order and be r142 the r62 will be given to the #7 and the #5 will not have half r142 r62 and why
r142man
The primary order of the R142's are for the #2 and #6 lines.
The Bombardiers' R142 orders go to the #2 - 7th Av. Exp. MTA has ordered so far, 1030 cars of the R142 type (and as you know, Bombardiers' go to the #2).
The Kawasaki's R142 orders all go to the #6 - Pelham, Lexington Local line.
The #2 line is scheduled to be ENTIRELY R142's by the end of 2001. The #6 line is expected a short while after. The ratio and rarity of the R142 trains currently on the #2 line is approx:
1:4-5 trains (more or less depending on the time of day) are R142's. There are only 13 R142 trainsets ready for the #2 line as we speak.
The ratio on the #6 line is approx.:
1:4-6 trains (more or less...) are R142's. The remainder of the fleet uses R62(A) and RARELY uses Redbird equipment.
As of now, do NOT expect any or rare R142's on the #3 and #5 lines. (#5 has an exception, I believe there is 1 R142 train for service.) The vast majority of the #5 line uses Redbird equipment, and occasional R62(A)'s.
So far, the #6 line runs on a majority of R62(A) equipment. After all of those are pushed out onto the #7 (most likely), the remainder of the R142's (except for maintenance, storage, waiting for service, etc.) will be available for use on the #5 line.
The #3 line is most likely to retain their R62(A) equipment for the longest period of time. This line uses full-time R62(A) cars and their lifespan remains to around 20 years of usage. I don't know if there'll be enough for FULL-TIME (ALL) R142's on the #3 line, #2 line, #5 line, AND the #6 line. The MTA HAD NOT intended initially for R142's on the #3 & #5. And because of this issue, MANDATORY FULL-TIME SERVICE (R142's) FOR THE #2 and #6 line will NOT be taken away to the #3 and #5 lines.
The best bet is that the IRT Flushing Line will be all R62(A)'s or the 'high-technological' trains that I read in the newspaper article given to me by 'harry' dated 'September 2000'.
Responses are pending and will be appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
really but the #5 needs new cars i love 2 but the % is geting r142s to
really but the #5 needs new cars i love 2 but the 5 is geting r142s to
Golden also cited the horrible transit conditions in southwest Brooklyn.
"Both the N and R trains are among the worst in the system," said the councilman. "Things are only going to get worse when construction starts on the Gowanus Expressway."
Daily News story
An interesting contrast of the many statements about the importance of the ferry on the one hand and the approx 100 riders a day.
That's one subway car.
About 3 months ago NY Waterways cited a lack of ridership to cancel the LIC - 34th Street Ferry. This service was very convenient for me since I could drive to the ferry terminal in LIC and then ride the boat.
Triboro Coach operates only ONE express bus daily from Astoria to Manhattan, which makes it extremely inconvenient to use. As for trains - well I now have to take bus to N, then change at 59th for downtown 6, then another bus - don't ask me to walk - my knees are shot!
When we found out the service was being cancelled, several passengers started a petition drive, letter writing, etc. We were promised that another operator would pick up the service "SOON". We've given up hope!!
Meanwhile I drive to work (yeah I know - booo... hissss....) - but until I get arthroscopic surgery done its the only way to go!
I did get to ride that ferry once, as a partial attempt to duplicate what it was like to ride NY-Babylon 100 years ago:
34th-LIC ferry
(connecting bus to LIC station--shhh--don't tell)
Diesel via non-electric Montauk branch to Babylon (I imagined I could smell coal smoke and hear chuffing noises)
IMO, that ferry died of neglect. If they could have arranged an interline ticket so that people could pay a combined fare LIRR-ferry more people might have taken advantage of it and relieved some pressure on Hunterspoint/7 Line and the East River tunnels.
Exactly!! It wasn't marketed - it is as if NY Waterways never really cared for it to begin with. Many LIRR commuters did not even know the service existed. Seems all they cared about were their NJ/NY runs.
And NY Waterways cancelled it in spite of the sweetheart deals they got with the Port Authority - they got to keep all the revenue from the LIC parking lot and didnt pay any rent for the lot or the dock.
The LIRR didn't really support it. They extended a few of their Hunterspoint trains to LIC and that was that.
How much was the ferry? The one time I rode it they didn't collect my fare. Remember that an LIRR commuter pays the same to go to LIC as they pay to go all the way to Penn. So how much more would they be willing to pay to ride two buses and a ferry to get to their final destination?
The ferry was $3.00 one way - I used to buy a monthly pass which cost $85.00. The fare included free transfer to a connecting NY Waterways bus which went across 34th Street. NY Waterways didnt do much to promote it either - after its demise I spoke to several Astoria residents who would have used it HAD they known it was there. For me it was a very convenient "park and ride".
They also charged $3 to park in the lot, but you could park for free in the "driveway" just outside the paid area of the lot for free if you got there early enough.
I was just perusing Michael Adler's new Route Map on this site. The MTA could learn a thing or two here.
The transfers are much clearer. Note the Canal Street transfer depicting both the "bridge" and mainline stations separately.
The express vs. local stops are clearer too, and "diamond" expresses are actually depicted as such.
Sure, it's more angular, but this makes it much clearer, and not nearly as confusing as this 1972 map, which also employs some of the same design elements.
The only thing missing are the bus transfers and other connecting information, but I think this same design could be employed in a printed version while adding that other information as well.
Anybody know what design software was used?
Keystone Pete
Also, the transfer depictions more accurately represent the length and direction of the transfer.
I think he uses MS Paint to draw the maps freehand...
Dave wrote: I think he uses MS Paint to draw the maps freehand...
That's correct and still is! Every single maps I've made is from MS Paint program including nearly 100% look-alike history maps of 1967, 1968, 1969, 1974 and 1978 NYC Subway Maps. Everything's by hand (via mouse)
I'm experimenting using MS Image Composer 1.0 that came with MS Front Page 97 using Subway Fonts for route markers on one of my map to see how it'll look.
Wow! How do you manage to get it that way? What tools do you use, or do you do it pixel-by-pixel?
American Pig,
I guess I'm used to using MS Paint program ... The tools are there which is simple to use, but be forewarned, it can be a time-consuming to make a map. Time-consuming is not a problem for me since I like to make my maps to be easy to read and view online/offline as much as possible.
Mike the Mailman
Mike:
Just wanted to compliment you on the absolutely superb subway map.... Yours is so much better than what else is currently offered. Congratulations!
When I'm ready to put the finishing touches on a number of photo books on the New York City metropolitan area systems I'm currently working on (Staten Island Rapid Transit, New York and Queens County Railway and Steinway Lines, Manhattan Elevateds, Newark City Subway, the BMT Lines in Brooklyn, etc.) -- part of my Traction Extra series -- perhaps I could engage you to do the maps. Also, please note that you may have free access to any material in my library; some of the maps I have are quite old.
Again, a very professional job extremely well done.
Best regards,
Joe Saitta
Most of us are engaged in transit photography. For years, I have been purchasing 100% of my cameras, film, darkroom supplies, etc. from B&H. The amount spent is at least $10,000 per year, and I consider that to be a good customer. Their selection and service have been adequate, and prices on a par with most other New York City camera stores. However, a few weeks ago, I discovered that Adorama on 18th Street (just east of 6th Avenue) opened earlier on Sunday, allowing a quicker retreat from New York City traffic, and made a nice purchase there. Yesterday, I again made a substantial purchase at Adorama. I must say that I'm far more satisfied with Adorama: parking is right on the block, the store, while smaller, has a far friendlier staff, the selection is good and prices are the same (at least for all the items I purchase) as at B&H, you get out of there much more quickly (as opposed to the minimum of three conga lines you have to stand on to complete your purchase at B&H), and they will give you large boxes to pack your purchased items in so you can easily carry them on a travel cart, instead of lugging plastic bags back to the car (as opposed to constantly fighting and waiting for boxes they always claim are not available at B&H, where the packing personnel have many times been quite rude). In addition, I'm still smarting from a 1985 incident at B&H where I purchased a supposedly brand new Canon EOS-1N camera (value of about $2,500 with the lenses), only to discover that the camera was not new, was defective (viewfinder LEDs broken, missing the protective plastic sheet on the pressure plate, battery weak, a few other miscellaneous faults). A trip was necessary to return the camera I assumed was a demonstrator. They grudgingly replaced it, the new camera was ok. When I requested replacing the two rolls of film wasted before discovering, they only gave me one roll, refused to reimburse me for the film processing - and then, knife in my back - when the single roll of film they so generously gave me was developed, it too was used and the photos were taken in and round the B&H store. My suggestion: go to Adorama or seek out other stores.
Another suggestion... have you ever heard of J & R ?? they also have a website as well .. last winter i broke my tripod at atlantic
street upstairs before waiting for the LIRR ( the construction site was not well lit ) broke the tripod head should have replaced just
that instead in my haste replaced the tripod with a velbon tripod ( oh well it worked well on the #2 REDBIRD ! ) ....wwooooppppeeeeee
last time i was there nyc ( my home sweet home birthplace 1 03 51 ) is a nice big place with alot of places to go !! ...lol !!
& man have you seen the subway system there ?? blows me away everytime !! ....lol !!
Just a thought. The DOT tells the TA that only one side of the bridge can be used for rail service. (This problem could be eliminated by plowing up the asphalt and giving the whole bridge to the subway like it was supposed to be.) Which service would the TA pick? The North Side 6th Avenue, or the South Side Broadway. I'm willing to bet the North because of the problems with turning trains around at Grand St. Installing a simple diamond crossover North of the station could eliminate this. It would only take the TA contractors 25 years to install this, so it's worth it.
25 years to install a switch? They built the entire 63rd St connection trackage in what, 4 years?
25 years for 1 switch.The MTA had to reinstall 3 miles worth of switches 7 months.
(The DOT tells the TA that only one side of the bridge can be used for rail service. (This problem could be eliminated by plowing up the asphalt and giving the whole bridge to the subway like it was supposed to be.) Which service would the TA pick? The North Side 6th Avenue,
or the South Side Broadway.)
As per the President of the TA in a presentation to City Planning several years ago: "The A/B tracks are a critical part of our network; the H tracks are important too, but the A/B tracks are critical." He was protesting the "Lah-De-Dah" attitude toward getting the bridge fixed.
It would be the North Side, because you would still have access to Broadway via the Montague Street tunnel.
I just heard that the TA will be holding a college fair sometime in October for those who wish to further their education and their title within the TA. I haven't seen any notices out in the field regarding this.
Is this true, and if so does any TA employee know if the TA is reimbursing tuition costs if one does enroll? Thanx.
They are if you have a B or above average
That's nice, the only money I can get back is from the union and the course has to be job releated and there is a limit ($150?) I can get back and you must pass the course with a certain average.
Yo:
I read a bit here: http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/indsecond.html
..of an 'enormous' unused station-shell (whatever that is) below s.4th street in brooklyn which was to be part of the IND aborted second system. The obvious question here is: does it really exist? has anyone here been there? is it under some random manhole cover like the old LIRR atlantic av. tunnel?
ALSO: I'm helping out a friend of mine who's working on a new book on items under the streets of NYC, part of that being the subways - and as such we'd like to get some good shots of some unused portions of the system (like city hall) - does anyone know who one might contact to gain entry to such a location? is there anyone at the transit museum that handles such things? anyone know a name or number to contact?
Thanks, well in advance, for any 411. as an added ransom, anyone that can come up with a good contact re: access to city hall or perhaps this mystery s4th street if it exists, wins a cold frosty beverage of choice, or some other reward... ...feel free to email me back if yee don't want to post random names and numbers.
We have W.4th on 6th ave, A proposed S.4th in Williamsburg, maybe an E.4th on the 2nd ave subway...
To complete the compass, we'd just need a N.4th street stop...BUT WHERE?
Its the Broadway Station on the Crosstown 'G' line. If you go all the way to the end (Opposite of where the exit stairs are), all you have to do is look up. And you will notice how high the ceiling is. Also if you look at the walls you can see where stairs USED to be to gain access to the station "shell". I think you can still get in but you need to ask around. There are 6 trackways and 4 platforms if Im not mistaken.
Also another good example on a Station Shell is Utica Ave on the A/C lines in Brooklyn.
There's quite a bit of info about it at joseph brennen's website, there's a link to it in the abandoned stations section on this site.
as such we'd like to get some good shots of some unused portions of the system (like city hall) - does anyone know who one might contact to gain entry to such a location? is there anyone at the transit museum that handles such things? anyone know a name or number to contact?
Its the Broadway Station on the Crosstown 'G' line. If you go all the way to the end (Opposite of where the exit stairs are), all you have to do is look up. And you will notice how high the ceiling is. Also if you look at the walls you can see where stairs USED to be to gain access to the station "shell". I think you can still get in but you need to ask around. There are 6 trackways and 4 platforms if I'm not mistaken.
A friend of mine was fortunate enough to get into South 4th many years ago. Access was not via any kind of staircase, but more of an inclined plane (think steep ramp). The best way to describe the layout of the station would be take a cross-section of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station as wide as the G's right-of way and that's what was built, more or less. Last I heard, about 4 years ago, was that the space was being divvied up into offices. Whether that has happened or not I don't know (and would love to find out). Ditto for Utica Ave.
Getting into other abandoned facilities officially is impossible or next to it. Especially IRT City Hall. Guiliani's security fetish has seen to that. The Transit Museum used to run tours of these disused facilities a few years ago, but no longer.
This is not to say that you can never see those places, you just can't do it officially. I was extremely fortunate a few years back to have known a person who was very kind and escorted me onto IRT (and BMT-Lower) City Hall platforms, lower-42nd IND and Myrtle/B'Way. We lost touch after that, alas. It was a fluke meeting, and we just "hit it off."
I, too, would give my left nut (proverbially speaking--put the pliers down NOW) to get into South 4th, Roosevelt Ave. (IND-2), Utica Ave., Myrtle/Flatbush, Nevins St., Bergen St. and 9th Ave. and do a huge photo spread.
Of course, you can risk your life--and your freedom--by trespassing (on your own) into those areas, but I think (almost) everyone on this group would caution against it in the absolute strongest terms possible. Myself included. While there are a lot of places I'd love to visit, Rikers Island, the ICU or the City Morgue ain't any of 'em.
If you're interested in using (for this book) any of my photos of the abondoned stations that you've seen on this site, please contact me off-list.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Utica Ave is still whole. Half of Roosevelt platform still exists plus much trackway.
Utica Ave is still whole.
Well... the Utica Avenue shell never was a full station, it's only as long as the width of the lower level. If what you mean is that it's not been taken over for some other purpose... I don't know, not having personally been there, what info I have comes from Joe Korman's website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The latter, yes.
Quite interesting about Bway. It seems just a bit odd that with it and utica the trackway/platforms are only the length of the tracks below. You'd think that while they were building it they'd just complete the whole damned station.
I was lucky enough to take one of them transit tours that stopped at city hall. Its a damn shame about you-know-who's security fetish.
I realize many many folks on this board would highly caution against even considering inspecting such locations without authorization, etc. and understand fully why. Theres a damn good reason most of these places are off-limits, considering the danger involved... (nevermind the dirt involved! heh!). Still, i might poke around a bit and see. i've been in and around plenty of similar locations over the years, supervised and otherwise, and consider myself pretty responsible and smart enough not to take stupid risks. if it looks remotely dangerous, i sure ain't going to touch it.
As for photos, i have a few myself, but i'll put in the good word to the author. I'm not even sure how much will be photos and how much will be straight text. I wasn't half into photography now as i was when i took one or 2 of the tours and got into a few other odd locations in the system years back - so if you can't imagine i've been kicking myself just a bit!
Bway... I should have known. I had an odd feeling there was more to that station. I already heard about Utica, and the extra platform at roosevelt in queens... now how to gain access... hmmm...
RWS gives guided tours of these areas and manymore of Unused NY, Email me for more info
What/Who is RWS? Thanks.
Well, Seven and I are RWS. If you want further info, contact me or Seven by email.
RWS are HOOLIGANS! =)
Here's a link to Joe Korman's IND Second System page. From this page are links to the Utica Avenue Subway and diagrams of the Utica Avenue station, showing clearly the track and platform layout. There are also descriptions of other uncompleted shells and provisions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the link. Fascinating! Joe Korman has done fine work for all of us.
I must second that. Very good info. I knew about Utica Av, but Bway on the G? who knew? I wonder if the stub tracks on the G north of nostrand av. were ment to connect to one of these lines... Me thinks i have much reading to do!
The middle track at Bedford-Nostrand splits in two just past the station then comes to an end. It was supposed to be an extension along Lafayette Ave. turning slightly onto Stanhope St. and eventually joining the Myrtle Ave.-Central Ave. line.
ah... it makes more sense now.
I had no idea before this week that the provisions for the 2nd system were so extensive. It's just a shame it never got built...
Yeah, especially the 2nd Ave. line. It's almost as if it's had a curse put on it.
I was in a set at the north moter of a N train. I did not get the car numbers, I was to buzzie talking to Coney Island Master Tower about something. The box is right behind the brake handle, so it is hard to get to. So now it's the slants turn to get the Enablers.
Robert
One problem that I can think of is on the older cars that getting them. The T/O had to hold the button untill the C/R puts the key into the Door controll and turns it to on. So on OPTO the T/O has to hit the botton and turn the key at the same time. This can be done on the Controller side but not on the other side. Any idears of how the TA might over come the Problem.
Robert
The door enablers only affect door control panels in other cabs, the operator's cab has the control panels bypass the enabler.
That's just what I would do. The TA might have something different.
Good question. Perhaps they may instruct the T/O to center his/her reverser in order to disengage the enabler.
I may be wrong, but, I think there is an OPTO rule (which is not followed) that the reverser has to be centered at every station during OPTO operation. AN ORTO qualified T/O told me this.
Being an OPTO qualified T/O, we are not required to center our reversers when opening the doors. The only thing that we do have to do is keep the controller in full service.
On a 44/46. hard to do that on a 68? >G<
If a train run past a red light what does the TO do?
What does the T/O do when he bypass a red light triggering the egmergency breaks?
From his grip (Bag) get the phone number for the union/local relgious afflication (church) and a clean pair of underwear.
LOL!!!!!!!!
I don't know, because I've never seen emergency breaks. I have an idea on what a T/O does if the emergency brakes are activated, however.
-Hank
Don't be such an @$$...answer him!
I don't know...
Don't be such a kid, and read some other parts of the site.
-Hank
I don't remember when it happened but a youth somehow got a set of subway handles, signed the train register at 207th Street and ran the A train to Rockaway and back towards 207th. Due to his zealousness, he tripped a signal on the way back and the train went into emergency. He was escorted by TA policemen from the train to TA headquarters and an urine sample was taken for drug testing.
Eventually, his identity was uncovered but how he got the controls remained a mystery.
Michael
It means he's about to get fired and/or drug/alcohol tested. At this point it's standard procedure for the T/O to get off the train as quickly as possible, run to the next station, catch a cab to the airport, and fly to Panama before the cops catch on.
You forgot the stop at the BAR so he has a reason to show a high BAC!!
Does anyone have any track maps of the 38th st yard area from when the El's were still existing?
I believe you may find it in the OOP book, "The Brooklyn Elevated."
again, a novice question.
what is OOP? and is that book out of print or currently available?
thanks
OOP = out of print... which answers the second part of your question. If you can get to the Fall Trolley Extravaganza on Saturday, 8 September, Holiday Inn, King of Prussia, PA, you might well find a copy... for a price. Regardless of that, the show is worth a carpool run if you can arrange it. There will be a couple of streetcar layouts and possibly some subway or elevated layouts as well, I don't know for sure... not as big as East Penn's every-other-year meet in the spring but worth the trip nonetheless. It's sponsored by the folks at MTS Imports.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Come on over and say hi! I'll be there again.
This might be the last Fall Trolley Show at this location - the Holiday Inn that Joel uses for his show is undergoing renovations next year and I don't think the hall will be available ....
--Mark
I may not make it myself... that Sunday I'm flying to Denver on business for a week and the wife's unhappy enough about that... we'll see. But if I do come I'll definitely stop by!
Oh, and to everyone else out there: I'll put in a plug for Mark's tapes - he's got some excellent ones of the system and also of Toronto.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Make sure to stop by Mark's table. He has some great tapes.
I can't make the trolley show I don't think, I'll be going to the Hoboken Festival on the same day, unless my plans change.
Chuck Greene
I am a Volunteer at the Transit museum. I do my best to tell about the Subway cars in the museum. What was interesting was a Retired Signal Tower operator was showing kids how signals and interlockings work. He pulled out one lever and the tracks moved. Then he pulled out a lever then the signal was double red, went blank then said bottom green proceed on main route. What was interesting is he pushed the lever back in, and it then turned back red. I thought Homeballs do that by themselves. So if he forgets to push it back in is it possible to still say bottom green? Also, is it possible for a Tower operator to give a Motorman a Bottom Green lineup and yet the tracks appear to be giving a diverging route setup?
Nope! If a train is on the track circuit related to that signal or the one beyond it, the signal will stay red regardless of the lever position unless __________________________ ?
By the way, were you one of the group I saw on July 20th (Friday) at the back of museum in the R-33 Bluebird?
The tower operator does not directly control the color of the
bottom light. There is a single red handle for each home signal.
When the handle is pulled out (on the type of machine you are
talking about) the signal will change from Red over Red to a
better aspect IF the block which the signal protects is clear
AND any switches which the signal protects are lined up. Whether
a bottom yellow or a bottom green is displayed at that time
is controlled by the position of the switch. There are many
places in the system where the main route (bottom green) is
actually the one which is physically diverging.
On more modern pushbutton interlocking machines, each signal can
be set to either stick or fleeting mode. Stick, which is the
default mode, means that after the train passes the signal, it
stays red, and the signal button has to be pushed again to clear
it. Fleeting is selected by pushing in the button and turning it
to the right so it latches. When a train passes, the signal will
turn red, but will then turn yellow and green (top head) as the
blocks clear up.
You can set signals to fleet on older machines. It all depends on how it is wired.
You can set signals to fleet on older machines. It all depends on how it is wired.
The original question was specific to the NYCT system.
On NYCT, the older machines will only do the equivalent of
fleeting. They can not be made to do stick signals, with
a few rare exceptions.
Well, this I let the subway buffs decide, because I know so little about tower length and operation.
So here are the places where the possible master towers will be: Choose 2 for the bronx, 2 for manhattan, 2 for brooklyn, 2 for staten island, 1 for queens
Bronx:
149 Stret- The Hub
Claremont Parkway
Fordham Center
East 180 Street
Co-Op City Boulevard
Morrison Avenue
Manhattan:
Whitehall Street
14 Street
Grand Street- East Broadway
42 Street
125 Street
Brooklyn:
Myrtle/ Flatbush Avenues
Utica Avenue
Kings County Plaza
Queens:
J.F.K. Airport Terminal 7-9
Lefters Boulevard
Staten Island:
St. George Terminal
Tottenville
Clinton
Jewett Avenue
Staten Island Mall
It's gonna get even hotter over the next few days as temps soar into the 90s everywhere. And the relief south Queens and Rockaway residents were getting will be eliminated too.
I wonder what the hottest subway station will be?
The hottest station I have been in recently has been the 34th and Broadway station. I was an OVEN down there. S.Ferry and Times Square are pretty bad too. Most stations near river tubes are cooler, as the cooler air from tunnels under the river gets pushed ahead of trains and into stations. This is most noticable at the N,R,W Lexington ave station.
Also the Redbirds on the 7 have the worst A/C. The B division cars have better A/C overall, especially the R32s, R40s, and R68s. The R46's have good A/C also.
Hopefully ConEd can keep up with the heat, because if failures happen they will mess up signals and disrupt service.
So what do you think will be the hottest places in the subway this week?
Fulton Street on the 2/3, oven down there, I was just there this afternoon...Now I have to put up with this station for the month of August, goodie...:-\
UNION SQUARE. Sure they have fans there but they are not everywhere. The minute I walked down there to meet a friend who is a Train Operator I started to sweat like mad. Its supposed to be hotter on Tuesday. Im glad I can wear shorts to work because tomorrow thats what Im doing :)
Anthony
Alot of the IRT stations seem quite hot. I've heard in the past they used waterproofing that helped trap heat.
Maybe you guys out there have seen this before but nothing compares to 95th Street & Fort Hamilton on the R Line. Absolutely oppressive heat down there. Good God, I run running for the stairs after ten seconds. I was in a Turkish bath. I've never seen anything like on the subway before. There was one great end to it, however. When I got to the top of the stairs there was a Baskin-Robbins Ice Cream Shop. Two scoops of chocolate chip, one of butter pecan,and one of pralines and cream and I was on my way=======to 86th Street to walk some of the ice cream off and to avoid that station.
Isn't the Grand Central 7 platform one of the hottest spots?
Yeah the temp. goes up by a few notches there. But doesnt that station have A/C in some parts?
Yeah that's pretty bad too, plus the oil smell.
Grand Central has A/C on the 4/5/6 platforms. It works really good in certain spots. I think Times Square on the 7 is hotter, that and 168 on the 1 (when the fans are shut off).
Grand Central on the 4,5,6. Man it feels good down there.
If I'm in that area, I'll use my unlimited Metrocard and just stand on the platform and cool off.
Aren't there buildings there? Even the actual terminal is air conditioned.
Yeah those A/C's should eb EVERYWHERE in the system.
CLARK ST 2/3
Stand a pillar or three away from the mouth of
the southbound tube... it's a turbocharged hair dryer,
shirt straightener, and body refresher all in one!
Hold onto your cap!
City Hall on the N/R. I've had to go there every weekday this summer, and it's always at least 105 down there.
I think 14th Street on the 4/5/6 is the hottest because the trains remain stopped there the longest, due to the delays caused by the gap fillers.
Eventhough we went thru this last summer, I'll repeat what I said then: both terminals of the E line. At WTC, the heat of the waiting E trains coupled with the heat coming up from Bway-Nassau as the n/b A & C trains arrive and Jamaica Center as you get the heat from the J line rising along with the heat from the E trains.
It seems to me that indoor stations with the most trains have the most heat. Downtown, the Broadway/Nassau/Fulton and Chambers Street stations are brutal. My home station on the F, with fewer trains, is cool in comparison.
The TA doesn't really need A/C everywhere. If they just installed it in destination stations, and ran it when it was over 85 degrees more than two days in a row, heat wouldn't be a problem.
72 street on the broadway line is hot as hell inthe summer
I wonder what the hottest subway station will be?
If you have time in your leisure, you may take a trip all the way to the end of the Queens Blvd. E line to Jamaica Center. That is the HOTTEST station that I have experienced recently. My dad and I were lucky enough to get on a R46 E train which had very good A/C. Once I stepped out, my skin started flaming and sweating as well.
I think too much heat is radiated onto the station via the third rail. I recall reading a passage about the R142(A)'s and read about how they cycle power back into the third rail as to prevent the heat emitted in subway tubes. Hope that will help.
The hottest station I have been in recently has been the 34th and Broadway station. I was an OVEN down there. S.Ferry and Times Square are pretty bad too. Most stations near river tubes are cooler, as the cooler air from tunnels under the river gets pushed ahead of trains and into stations. This is most noticable at the N,R,W Lexington ave station.
I have noticed another HOT station, and that is the World Trade Center station on the E platform (not the A and C trains, and it was HOT even in the WINTER!, must've been like 75 to 80 degrees in there [no heat is ever installed in subway tunnels]).
Also the Redbirds on the 7 have the worst A/C. The B division cars have better A/C overall, especially the R32s, R40s, and R68s. The R46's have good A/C also.
It really depends on which Flushing Redbird you ride on. If you're unlucky, you may get on one which only has several radiator fans on the ceiling and no A/C, or some selected Redbirds (like #9661) which HAS A/C and can really cool you off on a hot day.
Yes, the B division-type cars, R32's, R40's, and R68's have the best performance A/C. I believe some R38's have good A/C as well.
Hopefully ConEd can keep up with the heat, because if failures happen they will mess up signals and disrupt service.
What is ConEd in charge of for the city? I've seen a couple of ConEdison trucks and man-hole covers stating "ConEdison". Is anyone able to tell me what ConEd is in charge for the city? Thanks.
So what do you think will be the hottest places in the subway this week?
I think Jamaica Center, 34 St - 6 Av. Broadway, World Trade Center (E platforms), and of course, the elevated El lines in the Bronx and Brooklyn where they may receive direct sunlight.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Hey guys - you ever stand outside in front of a window airco unit as it blows out the HOT air. Where do you think all the heat escapement from thousands of air conditioned subway car evaporators goes - right into --(and trapped by) the tunnels. Not to mention the traction motor and electrical gear heat - and brake shoe heat (ever try to change HOT brake shoes on an auto you just stopped driving??) - and heat from resistors and dynamic braking-- heat from millions of light fixtures - soda (refrigerated) machines and (in some stations) food and beverage
shops cooking hot dogs and you name it---plus
electrical equipment line side fixtures --all motor operated (and refrigerator generating) machinery produces HEAT. Then you have the hot outside air
and sun scorching the street and sidwalks and heat
wafting up and down thru sidewalk subway grates and up and down the stairways. Finally, you have got the cumulative heat of 98.6 degrees each human rider & crew members multuiplied by the millions (some without deodorent!!!) - anyway - just throwing some
HVAC facts your way
>>> I think too much heat is radiated onto the station via the third rail. I recall reading a passage about the R142(A)'s and read about how they cycle power back into the third rail as to prevent the heat emitted in subway tubes. <<<
Pete, you should be in advertizing. You have a knack for passing off pure BS with such great authority. It is the air conditioning in the trains that make the stations hot, not the third rail. You have twisted what you read about the R142(A)s. I assume that what you read was about dynamic braking which would reduce heat from friction braking.
>>> It really depends on which Flushing Redbird you ride on. If you're unlucky, you may get on one which only has several radiator fans on the ceiling and no A/C, <<<
You might have noticed that they have removed the non air conditioned cars from the #7 line. That's why they are running only 10 car train sets.
>>> What is ConEd in charge of for the city? <<<
You have got to be kidding.!!!
Tom
Pete, with all due respect, you have inserted your foot into your mouth again! The heat in the subway comes from the air conditioning cooling the cars and the heat generated from the cars themselves. And to think I started to agree with your post about the heat at Jamaica Center and WTC! I have been a NYCT Train Operator of 20 years. I can't tell you how many times I have walked the tracks and had trains pass me by while I was down there. And you know what? Even though the third rail is "hot" it is just an expression because 600 volts is hot!. I can assure you that the third rail does not generate any heat whatsover!
I'm exhausted but I'll give this a try anyways (hint: pardon the mistakes - I'm sure several have crept in and I probably would be able to write more clearly after some sleep too...):
The third rail actually does produce some heat because it is a less than wonderful conductor that loses electrical energy to heat as electricity travels from the points where electricity is fed into the third rail to locations along the length of the third rail where train pickup shoes contact it to collect electricity. The third rail acts as a slight resistance (the steel third rail's resistance value is about 5 to 6 times higher than it would be if it were made out of copper) along the length of it connecting subway cars to the substation leads so it does generate some heat (energy loss due to forcing electricity through the resistance) as long as there are trains drawing current through it but it isn't significant compared to the heat dissipated by subway car air conditioners.
-Robert King
I think any of the stations along the "first subway" would qualify since the tunnels were waterproofed with tar (which has the nasty side effect of trapping heat), and the individual trackways aren't separated with concrete to create that "piston effect" you get when trains approach / depart.
--Mark
This Afternoon.
I happin to get on a R-142 Car #6311 on the (2)! It's pretty much sounds diffent then the R-142A. And the Talking Thing when it speeks it SOUNDS LOUND! And it was going Quick down the El in the Bronx. Also I saw a FEW R-142's going northbound on the (2) and when I got off at Times Square. Saw car #6501 about to leave Times Square on the (2). Was just woundering when the R-142 Order should be done by? And would the (1),(3),and <9> would see R-142's or R-142A's?
No R-142s are going to the 1, 3, and 9 lines, just displaced R-62As from the 6 line. And the order should be completed (barring any other surprises) by next year, according to the TA's press releases.
The 3 will consist entirely of R-142s.
thankyou
This Afternoon.
I happin to get on a R-142 Car #6311 on the (2)! It's pretty much sounds diffent then the R-142A. And the Talking Thing when it speeks it SOUNDS LOUND! And it was going Quick down the El in the Bronx. Also I saw a FEW R-142's going northbound on the (2) and when I got off at Times Square. Saw car #6501 about to leave Times Square on the (2).
Whoa. Looks like you had a blast today with the R142's! I wish I had seen that many in one day. By the way, the female automated voices are NOT loud. They are CLEARLY AUDIBLE. I've heard them a few times on the #6 line (sorry I don't have the car #) (inside and outside onto the platforms). No one is subject to get confused because of the clarity and tone of the automated voice.
Was just woundering when the R-142 Order should be done by?
The R142 order was placed a while ago. Shipments and manufacturing is still being done as we speak. There are 13 R142A trainsets ready for service on the #2 line as we speak as well. I believe the ratio is a little more than that of the #6 Pelham line.
The shipments and FULL-TIME service of the R142's on the #2 line is initially scheduled to be by 12/31/01, (or the end of the year). The #6 line may take a couple of months more, depending on the Kawasaki's delivery and framing and manufacturing times from Japan to the U.S.A.
So far, Bombardier (manufacturer of the R142's on the #2 line), has received an order from the MTA of 1030 subway cars of the R142 type. Any leftover R142's from both of the #2 and #6 lines will spill over to the #3 and #5 lines.
(I doubt they have enough R142's for FULL-TIME SERVICE on all FOUR #2,#3,#5, and #6 lines, since MTA's initial plan was NOT to have R142's on the #3 and #5 lines)
The R62's on these two lines will probably make their way over to the Corona Yard near/in Flushing and use them for full-time service for the #7 Flushing line.
And would the (1),(3),and <9> would see R-142's or R-142A's?
The #1,#9 - Broadway, 7th Av. Local lines will KEEP ALL of their R62(A) types (they are running FULL-TIME SERVICE) until their average lifespan is expired. (Approx. 20 years longer, until 2020) Therefore no R142's will be found on these lines.
The #3 line is expected to be all R142's but I am not sure as of yet.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
most likely, the 3 line won't see the R-142's. after the 2 line is filled up with them, priority goes to the 5 which is going to need them as you can see. 7 might get some of the layover orders and some R-142A layover orders could hit the 4 line (a big possibly maybe)
most likely, the 3 line won't see the R-142's. after the 2 line is filled up with them, priority goes to the 5 which is going to need them as you can see. 7 might get some of the layover orders and some R-142A layover orders could hit the 4 line (a big possibly maybe)
Look, we've already discussed this. The 7 WILL NOT get R-142s of any kind as the Corona shop cannot handle them.
The 3 will get them.
like i told mr. cruiser earlier. i'm just being rational minded for sometimes these plans don't stick. my opinion, its still to early to tell even though the officials say its gonna happen because this is supposed to happen in the middle of next year. you never know, the ta says they will do one thing, then they do something else over what they said they were gonna do.
plus its not eash to get a 7 trains over to the the #2,5 lines
You're right. The Steinway tubes and the #7 Flushing line has very limited access to other lines of the subway. Other subway lines have switches and yards which share different lines of trains in the same division (IRT, IND, BMT). If you notice carefully, the Corona Yard located right next to Willets Pt. - Shea Stadium was especially made for the #7 line, because NO other train or trainset could ever make it to/from that yard.
And of course, the elevated portion in Queens and Flushing on the IRT #7 line has only ONE service for the entire line. The grandeur #7. This is unlike the Brooklyn or Bronx El where the #2 and #5, and/or the #6 elevated lines run on the same tracks as each other.
: )
Railfan Pete.
right
AGAIN!
The 3 Line will be comprised of all R-142 Option Order, with the left over Option Order Cars going to the 4 Line to replace the 8-10 sets of Redbirds cruising over there.
The Cortlandt R-62As are slated for the Corona Line along with the Livonia R-62As, while the 1 Line gets the Pelham Boys, movement is already happening as 4-5 sets of Pelham R-62As are living fruitful lives on the 1 Line.
This info is current as of........NOW!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Yup, 1875 and some other of its boyeeez were crusing on the 1 today, that's the only car/set I've seen, I forgot the rest of the numbers high-qual me...
Actually, I saw #1861-1865 on the 1 line on Friday, I saw #1871-1875 on the 3 line.
CWalNYC
carlwal@hotmail.com
don't get to touchy now. i'm just being rational minded. you know how the mta switches on the last minute. at least to my experiences
thankyou for some someone that knows the #3 will get r142
One time I saw #1660-1669 on the Broadway/7th Avenue ALL TOGETHER sometime back in May. It was the #9 to those of you who were wondering.
thankyou at least someone knows the truth
the #7 will never get r142 unless corona yard gets overhauled like e 180st and the 4 will get some r142
i think its 1030 bombarider that could be the #2 and #5 line right there
my guess the #3 will get R142
>And would the (1) and (9) see R-142's or R-142A's?
riiiight.
south ferry they are too ugly to go there ! BRING BACK THE R-21-22 & R -17 !!
what
I agree with this post.
Where is this image located?
Approach to Hammel's Wye- Rockaways
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
This sunday I would be spending a day in phily and I would be rideing the 100 and 101. So I got some Questions!
1. Do I pay the fare when I come on the 100 from Norristown and when I come on the 101 from 69 St?
2. Do the 100 and 101 cars have soft seats?
3. Is 101 is good?
4. Who bulit the cars for the 101?
Thanks!
1. Do I pay the fare when I come on the 100 from Norristown and when I come on the 101 from 69 St?
Looks like you aren't going to be riding on a Regional Rail train. Basically, your fare depends on how many zones of SEPTA on your route that you travel. Fares are initially fixed fares in the same zone. (Consult a SEPTA Route map for the zones, or visit this link: www.septa.com) Tokens may be used on these trains. The base fare is $1.60. (Buy tokens they're CHEAPER and they substitute as a base fare!)
All transfers will be 40 cents from SEPTA's BUS to RAIL, vice versa, or with the same service (i.e. BUS/BUS).
2. Do the 100 and 101 cars have soft seats?
I've never ridden on a SEPTA Rt.100-101 train(s) before, but I have ridden on an R7 Trenton line en route to 30th St. - Philadelphia and beyond twice from Trenton. The seats on THESE TRAINS are gray and are fairly soft. The seats (they are greatly modernized) have the same layout as that of the Arrow I's and Comet I's. (Half forward, half backward.)
(You can see different models during different times, also the car #'s are 3-digits)
The interior layout is that of a MODIFIED Arrow II MU model (you can see scoops on the sides of the front), with center doors permanently sealed, "luxurious" cherry red walls, modified lighting, same interior car doors (passing from car to car), doors look the same, same electric motor as of Arrow III MU's used, and the lining through the windows is blue with white and red resembling the SEPTA colors. (The emergency windows are more decorated)
3. Is 101 is good?
4. Who bulit the cars for the 101?
Consult an expert on SEPTA's Route 101 on these questions.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
"Who bulit the cars for the 101?"
The 101 (and 102)use Kawasaki LRV's, they are the double end version of the LRV's used on the subway-surface lines. All the double-end LRV's as well as the N-5's on the 100 have soft seats.
The base fare is $1.60. (Buy tokens they're CHEAPER and they substitute as a base fare!)
The base fare is $2.00. Tokens cost $1.30 and can be purchased from vending machines 2, 10 or 20 at a time.
Thanks for your correction. That figure was taken from the SEPTA fares website before the JULY fare increase. Also, (keep this kind of a secret we don't want the SEPTA Co. to know, maybe it's still valid):
You can buy SEPTA tickets at their normal fare (pre-July Fares) from SEPTA's machines. They also carry loads of half-dollar coins. But the thing is, the new $20 is NOT EVEN ACCEPTED ON THE SEPTA'S MACHINES YET! The new $20 bills have been out full-time for several months now. Hmm....
: )
Railfan Pete.
I am takeing Regional Rail just to Phily and back and also takeing the NJ Transit from NY Penn to Trenton. I not going to take Regional Rail to Norristown. I takeing the 27 to the 97 to get to Norristown.3
I am asking for when I should pay the FARE on the 100 when I broad at Norristown and when I broad the 101 at 69 St. I aready know how much it is! And as of July 1 of this year. It's now 2 Dollars Base Fare. Transfers are now 50 Cents. 50 Cents each zone now instead of 40 Cents each Zone. Now the DayPass could be use on ALL Transit Services. BUT it still have the 1 Way Regional Rail trip.
BUT it still have the 1 Way Regional Rail trip.
Do YOU have the 1 way Regional Rail trip, or is that what you're saying?
I am asking for when I should pay the FARE on the 100 when I broad at Norristown and when I broad the 101 at 69 St.
Wait or ask an expert on SEPTA about this question. I've only ridden SEPTA twice, and I am not familiar with it. Your best bet is, carry a lot of money and change with you, and then when the SEPTA conductors ask you for it, then you'll give them the money.
(They shouldn't have penalties for purchasing tickets on the train, if I'm not mistaken)
Railfan Pete.
"(They shouldn't have penalties for purchasing tickets on the train, if I'm not mistaken)"
There's a 2 Dollar fee if Tickets where buyed from the Train if the Station you broaded have a open Ticket Booth or a TVM is at the station you broaded.
"Do YOU have the 1 way Regional Rail trip, or is that what you're saying?"
I am talking about the DayPass sir. DayPass could BE USE ON ANY Regional Rail Lines. Witch is good just for a One Way trip.
I have fround out by myself on when I should pay my fare on the 100 and 101.
100 Fares are pay as you leave outbound, pay as you enter inbound.
101 Fares are collected as you leave outbound, as you enter inbound.
So if I like going like to 69 St. That's inbound. Going away from 69 St is outbound. Am I right?
So if I like going like to 69 St. That's inbound. Going away from 69 St is outbound. Am I right?
Yes
A Sunday may not be a great day for travelling on the 100, 101 and 102 lines. The 101 and 102 only run once/hour. Saturday, they are every 20 or 30 minutes.
Instead of taking 27 to 97 to Norristown, you're better off taking the R6 and paying the extra fare (or using the Regional Rail trip). 27 and 97 misconnect, especially on weekends, and 27 is notoriously tardy (take it from a daily sufferer!). Plus, only 27 Plymouth Meeting Mall trips connect with 97 - the Barren Hill runs will leave you 3+ miles short of a 97 connection.
If you really, really, REALLY want to use a bus to Norristown, consider 124/125 to King of Prussia Mall and 99 from there. Of course, you could take 124/125 to Gulph Mills and connect directly with 100 from there in either direction.
OK. But I takeing the 27 that go's to Plymouth Meeting Mall and the only place to get the 97 from the 27 is at the Metroplex Center. After I get off the 27 there. I have to wait at the most 15-18 Minutes for a 97 to come at the Metroplex Center.
That's only if you believe that work of fiction called the '27 Timetable'. You could easily lose those 15-18 minutes along the line. It happens all the time. Hopefully you didn't but I wouldn't attempt it - too risky.
27 and 97 share Ridge Pike from Butler Pike to Chemical Road and Chemical Road from Ridge Pike to the Metroplex, so conceivably you could transfer between the two at any stop in that corridor. You could also connect to 98 at Plymouth Meeting Mall which goes to Norristown, although the routing is a little less direct than 97.
4. Who bulit the cars for the 101?
Answer : Kawasaki , They built pantogragh double ended cars for Red
Arrow rtes. 101 & 102.
The single ended trolley pole equipped cars are in use in the city of Phila itself.
Chuck Greene
i was in philly about a week ago... i bought a daypass for $5.50... i wasn't sure how it worked on the r-100... leaving 69th street, they do not collect fares, at least around 3 pm on a weekday... people paid on the way out... at norristown, i flashed the pass and the driver asked me if i was going to be riding anymore... i said yes, and he said: "keep the pass"... i thought he was going to punch it for the one regional trip... a little while later, i went back to 69th street... people were paying on the way in... i flashed the pass and asked the operator if it was okay... she said "yes"... i have the feeling you can ride all you want on r-100 with it...
i just found the july 1, 2001 septa transit fare flyer...
it says daypasses are now valid for travel on all city and suburban transit division vehicles and includes a one-way regional rail ride...
the timetable for the 100 Norristown lists it as a "suburban rail line"...
according to the transit fare flyer, you can find out the locations of where you can buy a daypass at their website
www.septa.org------ then click on "ticket office locations"
daypasses are now valid for travel on all city and suburban transit division vehicles
That's an improvement. On the occaision of the SubTalk SEPTA trip of Aug 5, 2000, we had to pay extra fares to ride the P&W.
When Keystone Pete and I did SEPTA last winter, IIRC the day pass counted as a token, and we had to pay zone fares to ride from Norristown to 69th Street.
It's good to see you on subtalk again, heypaul.
SHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
I don't think the person have to punch the DayPass when you ride Route 100. They just punch the DayPass for when you on the RR Lines.
yes that's right... for some reason i thought that 100, the line of the bullets, was a regional rail...
100 is not Regional Rail. It seems like it. BUT A Bit differt. And how was your ride on the 100? And do you have any photos from your trip?
I was recently looking through the T/O exam book (I know the next exam isn't anytime soon, but I was curious), and in the first few pages of the book it said that it might be wise to look at other T/O info books in addition to the exam book to study for the T/O test. Besides the info on this site, does anyone know where I can find these other T/O info books, what the names are, and where I can look for them?
Thanks for any helpful info in advance,
B63Mike
For the second time in a week, my Brooklyn-bound W train has been sent down the N/R tracks all the way through the tunnel instead of going over the bridge.
From 34th in Manhattan to Pacific in Brooklyn we rode on the local tracks, making "express stops" at 14, Canal-tunnel, whitehall, dekalb, and pacific and just running past all the other stations.
I hear this has ben a frequent occurance.
My only question is "WHY?"
-West End Scott
For the second time in a week, my Brooklyn-bound W train has been sent down the N/R tracks all the way through the tunnel instead of going over the bridge.
Which bridge are you talking about? Do the Q,Q, and W trains cross some kind of bridge into Brooklyn?
Railfan Pete.
The Q and W use the Manhattan Bridge South Side to get from Canal to DeKalb.
the same thing happened to me before. The W is supposed to skip dekalb....i dont get it either.
If they route it through the tunnel it can't unless it rolls through the station. If it comes into DeKalb on the Via Tunnel ("N"/"R") tracks, it's likely to stop for transfer purposes.
My beef with the "W" is the weekend set-up where it terminates at Pacific - WHY on earth do they do this, with "W"s on 8-minute headways stacked up like cordwood all the way back to Prospect while the crews change on the Pacific platform. They should just do away with this and just terminate it at 36th street. I know, people want a one-seat ride to a major transfer point at Atlantic - but geez, the waiting is pretty tough down there. If you bail out of the "W" at 36th and take the "N" or "R" up you are guaranteed to get there ahead of the "W" you just got off of.
wayne
If there's congestion on the express and switching it in will either: delay several Qs; or delay Ns and Rs at 42nd while W waits for its slot;, they keep it on the local.
Makes sense....
now the question is, if there's this much trouble with the current setup, are they going to make the "local/express/tunnel W" permanent? (my greatest fear)
It might be because at DeKalb the W train needs to punch its route. It either stops at DeKalb to do that, or stops at Lawrence St to do that.
If the W went through the tunnel, it can not reach the bypass track that only connects with the bridge. Hence W's go through DeKalb from Lawerance Street.
If Dekalb tower is on the ball they could give the lineup without the W punching at Lawerence or Dekalb but for saftey they have the W stop instead of skipping the platform at DeKalb I would guess.
Oh West End Scott, I'm bleeding for you. Maybe now you have a little empathy for us Sea Beach fans who have had to endure that kind of ride since 1987. We never get to go over the Manny B anymore, and that is one irritant that stays with me. Next time you might be luckier, but the Sea Beach won't. Think about that.
Fred, have I ever been stingy with the empathy I feel for Sea Beach riders, and the admiration I have for their ability to deal with so much crap from the MTA? I don't think you honestly wish for every subway line to be brought down to the level the N has become - rather, you want all subway lines to have the same good service. Don't begrudge us W-riders our right to be confused by reroutes, and our desire to stay on the Manahttan Bridge.
West End Scott: I stand corrected and you are absolutely right. In this case misery does not love company. I'd have been good and pissed off if I found myself in the same quandry as you did. You have a very nice way of putting me in my place and I applaud you. I hope what happened to you is a one shot affair. In the meantime I will keep hoping the TA decides to treat my favorite line better. I just won't hold my breath.
Three adjoining non-AC cars at rush hour today on the Flushing, and at least two in each set.
It's 2001, it's 95 degrees, and we have to have air conditioning....
spoiled, selfish www.forgotten-ny.com
I won't miss the "Redbirds" (Deadbirds) either. Although they were state of the art back in the late 1950s and early 1960s they're now simply old worn out subway cars where you're lucky that the A/C works. When you're at a local station and a train of "Redbirds" happens to pass by on the express track they are noisy like nobody's business. I'll be glad to see them go though I still think a few of them should be preserved for historical purposes.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
For us Redbird fans out there!
Yes these cars are old and rugged, but some of us like old things. Besides you wouldn't look good the way u used to if u were 40 years old! Also alot of people say they should rid the system of them faster since they drag people alot. Lets not forget the Redbirds were once glamorus like ur precious R142s. Oh and by the way, New Yorkers are already showing their appreciation for the R142s. 6426 entered wakefield on friday at 400pm covered in Graffiti. The Graffiti skeleton has resurrected from the dead. Not to mention the R142s are full of unnecessary computers. Steel dust will eventually take its toll on the R142s. Don't get me wrong, i like the R142s alot. But the Redbirds will be the last subway cars that were painted! And i hate to say it fellow railfans, other railfans from other states will not wanna see pictures of an Entire subway full of stainless steel wonders. I got a whole collection of Redbird shots, and still more to come as their days come to an end. Sniff Sniff. Plus i always wanted to operate one, and i never will probably. But if the R142s still are problematic maybe i will. Because they cannot replace nearly 2000 cars in 4 years. TRY AGAIN
E JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
BACK TO YOU
Lets not forget the Redbirds were once glamorus like ur precious R142s
The Redbirds were never glamorous. When they were introduced, they were just another humdrum set of carbon steel cars from a TA that could not keep up with the times in an era of brash modernism.
Not to mention the R142s are full of unnecessary computers.
Unnecessary? bullshit. I assume that electricity was unnecessary, air brakes were unnecessary, airplanes were unnecessary, medicine was unnecessary and the printing press was unnecessary. Maybe you should buy a shack in Montana and type angry letters against the march of progress. Remember to use an old manual typewriter, and not your computer.
Steel dust will eventually take its toll on the R142s.
And what kind of toll is that? Do you have any evidence that steel dust is any more harmful on the R-142s than it is on the worst subway cars ever made?
Don't get me wrong, i like the R142s alot.
Poppycock. You can't say one thing, but then everything else to contradict it.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Redbirds alot (I can also use fake words).
But the Redbirds will be the last subway cars that were painted!
Shows what you know, the R-38s through R-42s still have painted roofs. The R-44 has that painted band. If the Redbirds really were the last painted cars, that would be cause for celebration. Paint costs money, it costs money, time and labor to paint a car. Carbon steel rusts, which is train body cancer.
And i hate to say it fellow railfans, other railfans from other states will not wanna see pictures of an Entire subway full of stainless steel wonders
Are you the official spokesman for the The Railfans of American States Outside of New York (RASONY)? How do you know the tastes of other people? People have varied tastes, and who are you that you speak for everyone else?
Because they cannot replace nearly 2000 cars in 4 years. TRY AGAIN
Let's see, are you privy to any information from the TA to which we are not? I thought so.
Your claims are foolish, they are as foolish as the claims of those who have said that we cannot ever go to the moon (like the Fox Network).
Basically, I don't bother with technical aspects. The Redbirds were the first subway car I ever rode. I have taken more trips on them than any other, to work, to school. Any time I've gone railfanning, my trip most likely started out on a Redbird. My grandfather went to work on them in the 80's. Affection doesn't have to mean looking at technical aspects, breakdown rates, speed and so on. Beauty truly is, in the eye of the beholder. So, if someone told me the Redbirds have the highest accident rate, the highest breakdown rate, and in a poll of all the people on earth, they were rated the worst machine ever built, I'd still love them. The Redbird debate falls on deaf ears when it comes to me.
The 1964 R-33/36 WF paint job inside and outside combined with the debut of the picture windows and the lower windows on the door leafs is still the best-looking car NYCTA ever produced, IMHO, plus the TA logo from '64 looks 10 times better than the mega-ugly MTA one (they paid how much money for that???) that adorns all the trains today.
And I know the time has come for the `birds, but I am hoping the MTA will hold off of sinking the best 100-200 of the old cars for a couple of years to be used as rush-hour put-ins (and anyone who doesn't think the IRT could use more rush hour cars has never stood on the express platform at Grand Central or 72nd St. and Broadway).
And I know the time has come for the `birds, but I am hoping the MTA will hold off of sinking the best 100-200 of the old cars for a couple of years to be used as rush-hour put-ins (and anyone who doesn't think the IRT could use more rush hour cars has never stood on the express platform at Grand Central or 72nd St. and Broadway).
I've said it once, and I'll say it again:
More R-142s have been ordered than there have ever been Redbirds.
Only 150 net increase in A divsion fleet size, and 10-car 3 trains will eat up a portion of that.
Good point about the No. 3. The IRT will still have about 12 new 10-car trainsets after the Lennox line gets it's extra car, but that translates to only two new trainsets per line during rush hour on the mainline IRT (given that the No. 7 is pretty well maxed out at rush hour right now). Keeping, say 120 of the older cars in best condition would allow four new trainsets per line with the fleet increase in size, and that would start ot make a dent in the overcrowding problem [and I would guess only a few people on the board would be slitting their wrists if a Redbird pulled into their station during AM or PM rush after the winter of 2001.] (-:
true have you ever just missed a #2 at 34 on 7ave during rush see how long another one takes to come
all the ta is going to do is hold 100-200 cars for emergenecys just they dont have enough r142 classes meaning if the the new classes break down they wil have spare trains
yes !! i agree with you !!
My attempt (in the previous post at least) wasn't to put down the appearance of the Redbirds or people who like them, but rather to put down E train's feeble attempt at trying to make his love of Redbirds and dislike look reasoned.
And his false statement that he likes R-142s "alot."
At least you're honest about your true reasons for liking the Redbirds.
Well, you seem to have a lot of hate towards redbirds. Did they scar your for life when you were young? Did you happen to drop your candy, stuffed animal or somthing "special" in front of one and it ran over it with loud squeaking brakes? Or have you been stuck on one during a power outage? j/k
I didn't hate Redbirds until I saw the ignorance of many of the pro-old, anti-new crowd. Before that, I didn't really care about them, but still preffered other cars to them.
Youth does have its place Pig, but the one problem I see with it is that it has had no time to gain a real perspective on things that have happened in the past since their own experience is still very limited. I believe that in twenty or thirty years you will have a different take on it. Age and experience helps in that regard.
What does any of this have to do with youth?
Besides, the ideas you've expressed are one of the excuses used by the ruling generation to deny youth their NATURAL rights. I'm not saying you're one of those people.
Nevertheless, since there is a time in which you were not alive, you cannot gain prespective from that past, can you? Under your idea, people who have lived through a "quiet" time in history gain less perspective than those who lived in an era of rapid change and turmoil.
Pig: That is not what I meant. I meant that you changed a lot of your opinions and outlooks as you get older. You see things differently. In the 60's I was a wild eyed radical ready to burn things down and I did a few things I shouldn't have. Today I'm a conservative Republican, just to give an example. You change. We all do. The thing is to try and change for the better.
I would rather die than become a conservative.
Now I should first mention that by conservative I mean in the traditional sense of the word: To conserve, to maintain the order.
Today's conservatives and liberals have nothing to do with conserving or liberation, that's why I prefer the terms left or right, since they otherwise mean nothing in a political sense.
Right-wingers aren't all wrong, there are a lot of good ideas I share.
I won't go with the Republicans for one primary reason: The influence of the religious wrong.
I am now more to the left than ever!! ( i would never vote republican ) i do like the green party ...
voted for nader in the last election ...
republican... what good has that done?! we have BUSH thanks to that party... not to mention guliani... j/k sea beach :)
not to mention guliani
Great party, huh?
I still like the oldheavyweight riveted steel construction passenger cars anywehere from IRT thru the R1-9, Pennsy P70, NYCentral steel coaches, Chicago L etc etc etc. That was my idea of beauty.
The old IRT High-V's took my grandfather born 1896 about in his youth and took him to and from work as late as l957 and took me for a lot of joy rides and to places of recreation too; The Low-V's were new [most of them] when he graduated college... took my mother to school and then work for years [born 1922], and then took me to work [and on joy rides, etc] as late as 1963.
I can't change what's going to be or the normal wearing out of any piece of machinery; everything's time comes and goes even if I wish such weren't the case. But maybe there were people who missed stages, horsecars, etc.
My biggest argument with R142 and the like is why the excesses of technology that are built in grief?
Allright Tony, way to back up your favorite type of train. If you read my posts I hark back to days of the Triplexes. It is good we have our favorites. I just wonder back in 1965 when the Triplexes were sent to the gloo factory was there the same hue and cry about their sad passing. I kind of doubt it.
Some people have posted here that when the R-32s were introduced, there were many complaints about lack of seating. The Triplexes, after all, had lots and lots of seats, as did the BMT standards.
One Brooklynite was quoted as saying, "It was bad enough when the Dodgers left for Los Angeles, but Brooklyn just isn't the same without the old BMT cars."
Thats true :-)
they could always go down to the Transit Museum and visit them..
heheh
Yeah, that was a bad time for the New York-occupied City of Brooklyn.
Although you've disagreed with me in the past this time I have to agree with you. Though the "Redbirds" were perfectly good cars in their day and with the GOH program they got quite a number of more years out of them it is time to put them out of service for good and let new cars take their place. It is true that they're having some problems with the R-142s/142As at this time but the problems will be solved in time and people will regard them as good subway cars. True some people think that the computers are unnecessary but I feel that they're importantin helping to keep a subway car running. With time computers will just keep getting better and better.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Its like i already said. New Yorkers really couldn't give a damn what picks them up. So R142 or Redbird, whatever pulls in say on the 2 line, if they A$$ got to be to work, then they will hop on it. And most New Yorkers are so dumb that if a Work train were to stop and open its doors and if it had seats in it, they would get on! Because other than us Railfans, New Yorkers are stupid. I asked one lady a trick question. I saw a set of R32s on the E and i asked what Train do u think that is? She thought it was an F!!
No further questions
your honor
You have a lot to learn, just because a person doesen't know what type of train runs on what line does not make them stupid.
Peace,
ANDEE
You have a lot to learn, just because a person doesen't know what type of train runs on what line does not make them stupid.
On the other hand a person who knows only trains and nothing else can be considered stupid. Ever heard the term idiot savant?
Peace,
ANDEE
You hear that Jamaica Center? The peanut gallery has been heard from. I'm in his killfile and I could'nt give a hoot about it. He likes to berate others but, oh God, just say something that bends him out of shape and he goes bonkers. Pay no mind to him----it's just the mumblings of an elephant. Maybe you will get lucky and join me in his killfile, then he won't ever know what you wrote. BTW, he is now the only guy on Subtalk who is at war with me.
>>he is now the only guy on Subtalk who is at war with me.<<
Wow! I never thought that you would have enemies!
Sad to say so Jeff. I have made peace with all those I had differences with except him. Oh well, as they say: If you have everybody satisfied you are not doing your job.
I had a little scrap with American Pig about a week or so ago about the changes in the subway service because of the Manhattan Bridge construction. I told him that the BMT service pattern is better than no subway service whatsoever. American Pig makes big deals over stupidity. I'm sure that if he reads this message I'll get the usual flack from him. Why can't he be like us BMT fans who usually get along with each other.
#3 west End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I think he was referring to SUBWAYSURF, not American Pig.
Right Jay, it was SUBWAYSURF I was referring to.
I told him that the BMT service pattern is better than no subway
service whatsoever.
You mentioned no such thing.
You told me that the current service plan is better than the north side only plan. I don't doubt that the current service plan works better out of necessity, but the B and D running via 6th Avenue to West End and Brighton, respectively is the optimal plan.
American Pig makes big deals over stupidity.
Of course. I cannot stand stupidity, and when I see it, I must respond.
I'm sure that if he reads this message I'll get the usual flack from him.
When you post lies and revisionism against me as you have done above, you get flack.
Why can't he be like us BMT fans who usually get along with each other.
Selective memory. The quarrels between the pro-Brighton and pro-Sea Beach crowd are as vehement as everything else, regardless of how the participants say that it's "friendly" (and war is just a friendly disagreement).
I'm not here to make friends with you. If I see something I disagree with, I say so. I do not believe that service patterns should be dictated by historical reasons alone. It is a ridiculous idea, and I had to disagree with it. Your point was that the current plan is the best plan for irrational, sentimental reasons, and not because it is the best that can be done with available resources. All of your messages said how wonderful it is that the old BMT is back.
You seem to have a problem putting something out and then seeing negative responses to it. Somehow you expect everybody to be friendly and agree with you on all counts. NEWS FLASH: It's obvious that "us BMT fans" appear friendly to you only because they agree with you. Your perception automatically flags someone who disagrees with you as a foe.
American Pig, I can tell that you love to argue about everything that you don't agree with. Unlike other times you didn't get me angry with you but sometimes your agruements can be very amusing. I know that you disagree with me upon how wonderful it is to have the old BMT service pattern back in place but, in my own opinion it is better than no service on the Manhattan Bridge whatsoever. This service pattern is expected to remain in place for the next three years and you'll get used to it becuase prior to November 26th 1967 that is how the service ran on the Manhattan Bridge.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
And when and if we get the Sea Beach back on the bridge all will be right with the world.
Au Contrare Pig. My exchanges with the Brighton crowd are not vehement and laced with anger. I am going to Virginia and guess where I am staying this weekend and next week? Right, #1 Brighton Express Bob's house. And Q can tell you that we are buddies on this site. No the Brighton vs Sea Beach posts are enthusiastic but all in good fun.
I'm at war with you too, Fred. But it's more like détente.
-Hank :)
Interesting and news to me Hank. When did all that come about, or are just pulling my chain again---just like my buddy Brighton Express Bob tries to do?
>>Its like i already said. New Yorkers really couldn't give a damn what picks them up.<<
Screw the damn closed cars, lets use gondola's to pick them up!
>>So R142 or Redbird, whatever pulls in say on the 2 line, if they A$$ got to be to work, then they will hop on it.<<
Blah, blah. This is just more pointless arguments that have no bearing on this argument whatsoever.
>>And most New Yorkers are so dumb that if a Work train were to stop and open its doors and if it had seats in it, they would get on!<<
No, they wouldn't. I'm sure that you would though.
>>Because other than us Railfans, New Yorkers are stupid.<<
What makes them stupid, the fact that they work on wall street and may have an education higher than yours and mine or the fact that they can't differentiate between an R-40S and R-40M? This is total crap, and again, none of what you're saying is relevant to keeping the redbirds.
>>I saw a set of R32s on the E and i asked what Train do u think that is? She thought it was an F!!<<
And this makes her stupid? Because she doesn't know that R-32's do not run on the F? We have a title for people like you too. You know, the kind that ask stupid questions to trick people who obviously couldn't give a damn if the R-32 has a railfan window? We call them jackasses.
>>No further questions
your honor<<
You didn't actually propose a single question in that post.
>>And most New Yorkers are so dumb that if a Work train were to stop and open its doors and if it had seats in it, they would get on!<<
>>No, they wouldn't. I'm sure that you would though.
Ohhhhh yes they would. I've had people trying to board when I was operating the money AND the garbage trains. If one was really in a hurry, they'd try to get a ride on a flat car.
Kinda pathetic to dedicate your life and all your time to railfanning, "Because other than us Railfans, New Yorkers are stupid" This is so wrong I will just fail to acknoweledge this.
I can't believe i just wasted 3.5 seconds reading this. I will never, ever get that time back. Bastard.
Joe: Just a flash in your life. Get back to enjoying it and lighten up. At least that racial crap was taken off by Dave. I don't know why all of us just sucked into it all the time
racial crap? yeesh. i missed something today... at least them 3.5 seconds were not wasted reading that sort of jibberish!
stop making sense !
Proff the redbirds looked better when they were new check out the beautiful flushing line worlds fair light blue cars !!
Hell the photos are on this webpage !! A brand new flushing #7 wf 33-36 series NEW compared to the UGLY
R-142s new & the ""redbird"" wins with style beauty railfan window etc... NO CONTEST !!
Proff the redbirds looked better when they were new check out the beautiful flushing line worlds fair light blue cars !!
Those were the most beautiful cars when they were delivered. They still would be if they had kept the heavenly aqua and cream coloring.
A brand new flushing #7 wf 33-36 series NEW compared to the UGLY
R-142s new & the ""redbird"" wins with style beauty railfan window etc... NO CONTEST !!
The World's Fair cars win, but they weren't Redbirds. Now as Redbirds like all the others they're almost as ugly. They still have the picture windows though, so that makes it less painful.
>>The Graffiti skeleton has resurrected from the dead.<<
Uh-oh. A few cars have gotten grafitti on them. It's going to be the 70's all over again! Someone, call David Gunn, NOW!!!
Cars occasionally get grafitti on them. You seem to attribute fault to the R-142's for this. Why the hell are you doing that? This means we should never get new cars, right? Senseless.
>>Because they cannot replace nearly 2000 cars in 4 years.<<
Really? They can't? let's do some math:
this would mean putting out 500 cars per year (2000/4=500)
There are 52 weeks per year. So, we divide 500/52,
This means per week they need to get one train. (approx, actual # is 9.6153) This can be done.
>>Lets not forget the Redbirds were once glamorus like ur precious R142s<<
No they weren't. The only 'glamorous' thing about them was their paint jobs, either bright red or World fair colors. And, none of them even kept those.
>>Not to mention the R142s are full of unnecessary computers.<<
... That's not true. Of course, your computer is unnessecary. Any computer is unnessecary. What kind of crap is this? The computers are useful to the TA speeding things up. What the hell is this? Basically, you want the TA to purchase cars with no computers forever? Every system in the world will have computers, except NY, because they're unnessecary. Bull.
>>other railfans from other states will not wanna see pictures of an Entire subway full of stainless steel wonders.<<
Oh, I see. It's not about the suffering riders, the commuters who ride these everyday. It's about the railfans.
And, uh are you a spokesperson for this group? I'd like to know what's so special about the Redbirds? They're not particularly nice looking cars. Unless, "corrosion brown" and "rebuilt red" are a favorite of yours....
Unnecessary Computers? Why of course! And I thank you for writing that on looseleaf paper and distributing it to all "Subtalkers" (heathens who use unnecessary computers) so we could read them instead of posting it on a silly, unnecessary computer!
;-D Andrew
Although they were state of the art back in the late 1950s and early 1960s
I don't want to get into heavy Redbird bashing. If someone likes them for whatever reason, fine. It's like the Lo-Vs--they were noisy and dirty and not particularly comfy to ride in, even by 1920 standards, but they had personality and evoke memories for millions who rode them.
BUT they were never, ever, "state of the art" or even anywhere close, nor were they supposed to be.
I'm not trying to say anything negative about the "Redbirds" and like the IRT Low V subway cars in their day they did their job even though you didn't consider them particularly pleasant to ride in. On October 27th 1994 I had the chance to ride on a four car train of IRT Low V subway cars since they had them on the 42nd Street shuttle to commemorate 90 years of subway service. They were fun to ride and I liked the sound of the traction motors gathering speed. I'm sure though that I wouldn't want to ride in IRT Low V cars everyday however since they were replaced with something better. Now people are saying negative things about the R-142s since they're having problems with them but the problems will be worked out in time and then they will never want to go back to riding the "Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I wasn't implying that you were saying anything negative about the Redbirds, Jeff. I was just responding to the thread in general. I was making the comment since I think I've made it fairly clear on SubTalk that I don't have much attachment to Redbirds but I respect other people's enjoyment.
When I began writing about transit years ago I tried to separate my personal feelings about systems, lines and cars from more objective observations. Sure, I enjoy the BMT and the Brighton Line in particular because this is what I grew up with. The first apartment I livedin overlooked the express tracks at Church Avenue. Maybe I would call this the "my dog's better than your dog" feeling.
It was a lucky coincidence, as I began to study transit history, to find that the BMT had merits beyond just being the line I grew up on. And it had warts too.
As to rquipment, I think cars have an independent personality that effects us on a primal level. A lot of people would laugh about that but I think most people feel similarly about automobiles.
BMT Standards were "friendly" or "comfortable." They had pleasant riding qualities and were quieter than previous equipment. Triplexes were powerful. You could feel it. When you rode a Triplex you just got the feeling that if anything got in your way, too bad for whatever it was. Lo-Vs were rough but sturdy. The growls and hisses let you know were riding a machine You could imagine the motorman wearing an engineer's cap and red bandana.
Redbirds, sad to say, don't touch me on any level. But they're so much a part of people's lives that I can understand people's sadness at their going.
All the sadness about the demise of the Redbirds brings to mind something I think about all the time I'm online here on Subtalk. That is how much I miss the Triplexes. I have got to work out a schedule so I can ride on one of those again on a fan trip. If I do, I get the railfan window or else.
Hopefully you'll have the opportunity to ride a "Triplex" again one day soon.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Funny how I REALLY miss the Standards and the Triplexes...but don't feel a thing for the Redbirds. And I never thought I would say this (being a die-hard BMT fan) - but I wouldn't mind riding the R1-9's or the R-10's again. Guess its the rattan seats and the sound of the traction motors ;-)
But if they ever run redbird fantrips - count me out
- but I wouldn't mind riding the R1-9's or the R-10's again. Guess its the rattan seats and the sound of the traction motors ;-)
But if they ever run redbird fantrips - count me out
Ditto
and
Ditto
The R-10s had helical-cut bull and pinion gears, so they didn't moan and groan the way their prewar counterparts did.
I rode on the BMT standards during their final two years in service and didn't care for them at the time. I've come to appreciate them for what they were - damn near indestructible.
Never did get to ride on the Triplexes. And to think we were in the city during their final week of service.
You and me both, Fred.
I would have to make an educated guess that many people are mourning the departure of the "Redbirds" because they grew up with them in their youth and when that last link to their youth passes it is like the loss of a loved one. I'm sure that there will be fan trips with museum "Redbirds" in the near future so that those die-hard "Redbird" fans can relive their youth.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
2 words for y'all: railfan windows.
redbirds got 'em, 142's don't. in ten years when they retire the last of the silverbirds, we'll all have to get jobs as TO's to see that view. also the TA rubs it in my face by not operating the 62s or 68s ralifan-window first anymore. boo. hiss.
2 words for y'all: railfan windows. redbirds got 'em, 142's don't.
Maybe in a new high tech innovation they'll put a camera in the front of the train which will feed a view ahead back to the passenger compartment--a railfan window in Cinerama®!
Keep your fingers crossed.
You have a terrific idea for those who love railfan windows. It might be inexpensive enough so that they can install the cameras on the end cars of each train or multiple car set.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
2 words for y'all: railfan windows.
redbirds got 'em, 142's don't. in ten years when they retire the last of the silverbirds, we'll all have to get jobs as TO's to see that
view. also the TA rubs it in my face by not operating the 62s or 68s ralifan-window first anymore. boo. hiss.
************************************************************************************************************
Again stop making sense ! I would not mind those crummy new r-142s if the railfan window was included !!!
( even if they are so god dammed ugly ) ......lol !!!
I would have to make an educated guess that many people are mourning the departure of the "Redbirds" because they grew up with them in their youth and when that last link to their youth passes it is like the loss of a loved one.
Didn't The Kinks say it all in Come Dancing (1983)?
The day they knocked down the Pali,
My sister stood and cried.
The day they knocked down the Pali,
My sister's childhood died.....(just died)
I don't understand this at all. The Redbirds aren't comfy? The R-142's are comfy? Maybe my anatomy is all wrong, but the R-142 seat backs force my back to bend in directions backs are not supposed to bend in. I simply cannot sit comfortably in those cars. (I've looked around while riding them, and it seems like some other passengers are afflicted by this ailment as well while others fit just fine.) The Redbird seats, OTOH, are shaped just perfectly. Does anyone find the Redbird seats uncomfortable?
Since all expresses on my line will soon be running nothing but R-142's, I guess I'll have to get used to riding the local if I want to sit in comfort. (The R-62A seats aren't great but at least they don't try to twist me into a pretzel.) Not that standing is a great option anymore; the only overheads I can reach without turning my fingers all tingly are on the Redbirds (straps), R-38's, and CI-GOH R-42's.
Well I guess there's only one solution . . .
TAKE THE BUS!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Or you could just sit on the floor of the subway car.
Or sit on the seat, but sit hunched forward.
Or stand and hold a vertical pole.
If you beleive it you will acheive it.
he he he he he he he lol !!
Seats can be replaced - the "ta's" proven that many times over the years. It is a fact of life that in the "fast food" industry, seats are designed deliberately to be as uncomfortable as possible with the explicit social engineering design of, "eat up, shriners" ... like sands through the hour glass, so goes fast food (and its decor by deliberate design to get you OUT of that seat).
Given NYC's potential for "1-800-UNHAPPY" legal profession sister Cleos, I'd be willing to guess that there's an advocacy group way short on camera time who could FORCE the MTA to replace those seats with something comfy.
Since there's been a lot of sniping here, let me reassure you and everyone else that while I am being facetious, I'm also providing useful information if this is a real problem. SUE the TA claiming bodily malfunction as a result (bonus points for ADA "victims") of the design. Subway seats are a bigger prize than hitting the lottery, so if you're the lucky recipient of a genuine TA seat, then it might as well be fully worth the suffering of playing the numbers every day and coming up short ...
Hey! I was BORN in NYC ... no joking with the realities I just described above ... in all seriousness, if the seats are that screwed up for the human anatomy, some lucky law firm will end up actually paying their "BTA airtime" billings ...
fast followup on the thought ... I'm not bashing the MTA, but rather the "design by lawyers" mentality THROUGHOUT government (remember, the MTA and the New York City Transit Authority" are BOTH STATE AGENCIES even if "locally run" ... Wal*Mart calls it that too) which results in things like you see that irritate in subway car design since the MTA came into being.
Once upon a time (and this is something ELSE I can't remember from school car) car design was done pretty much by one single guy with a sharp pencil and a T-square ... it resulted in many of the original Board's designs from the R11 to the redbirds. ONE GUY drew the plans and then brought in a horde of bidders willing to build them. Back in the days of the "ghods," every little nuance of the cars was designed *IN HOUSE* ... seat curvatures, the whole nine yards. Them old BoT seats were pretty nice, huh? I used to nod out in a darkened tenth car (having church key VERY handy) by myself and stretch out on the red vinyl and wicker seats. Almost as good as my own mattress (yet another part of my love affair with R1/9's) maybe even better to sleep on.
Now, in the typical state mentality, we have "Open competitive exams" (why? "We're the Department of Civil Service ... we know absolutely nothing about making widgets, we're appointees ... we read in a study group report that THIS is the way to do things") since any square block can be plugged into a round hole because we have the magic of hydraulics to make it so. (I worked for the Public Service Commission - the preceding would blow right over the tops of their heads and ignored) and WORSE, we have "ergonimics research subcontractors" ...
The STATE actually paid some dumbass to DESIGN the seats the way they are ... if the design is faulty, and a *real* (read this as NOT the low bidder) ergonomics expert were to examine those seats, curvatures and other factors and deem them deficient ... well, you get something more comfy. DAMN! With the soup that's out tonight for weather, being a Bronx boy and considering Krooklyn to be *WAY TOO HUMID* I could really use a wicker seat right now, just to sleep. Unlike the vinyl, even on nights like that, those seats didn't stick to you face. :)
Unfortunately, the thing is, the Redbirds (Deadbirds as you call them) were built from carbon (pre-stainless steel) type carbodies. They weren't built from stainless steel like the R32's and R38's acquired 40 years ago. They last longer than carbon steel. And after all, the Redbirds are painted red, which increases the chances of paint peelings...
Long live the Redbirds while they last... (don't forget about A/C, #9661 has A/C! (on the Flushing line).
: )
Railfan Pete.
spoiled, selfish...!! U got that right !! man you guys today with your AC subway cars are so WIMPY & WEAK
damn ! I mean ewhat did the subway riding public do during the pre world war 2 equipment days ??
back when the subway was a REAL SUBWAY !! & the ac was a {FAN} overhead ........lol !!
This is ridiculous. People may have lived without certain things in the past, but that is no excuse to give up the luxuries of the present.
Would you want to go back to the time when people were strong and didn't even need medicines, and a third of Europe died of the Bubonic Plague?
no but some of you folk these days are too PLUSH WIMPY weak laid back etc.. now back in my old mans time they were
tough !! & the subway was a real subway ! ( but this is too far over your head sir for U to understand ).........LOL...!!!
as for you plague you may have missed the national report on the rat population on the rise !!
spoiled, selfish...!! U got that right !! man you guys today with your AC equipped subway cars are so WIMPY & WEAK
damn it !!! .... I mean what did the subway riding public do during the pre world war 2 equipment days ??
back when the subway was a REAL SUBWAY !! & the ac was a By the way AC was a - {FAN}- overhead ........lol !!
Ya know, I grew up when NONE of the subway cars....or buses....in ANY city had air conditioning.
We took showers and used deodorant daily. :-)
Today, after a long day of railfanning, I wind up in the Rockaways. I decide to board the Q53 bus at Beach 98st (6:15 PM) to get back home (Rego Park). It's already SRO when before it stops, and after 95st the crowding is decidedly worse than the E and F during the height of rush hour in the 53st tube. I couldn't even turn to face any direction other than the window, and was in constant physical contact with the people to the left, right, and behind of me. The person sitting in the seat in front of me wasn't too thrilled either. And, since this is an express bus, there is a good 25 minutes where there is absolutely no movement of people, since no one is getting off or on. To make things worse, Woodhaven / Crossbay Blvd's traffic lights are timed in the direction of rush hour traffic! So that means we are hitting every other light! Each time we slow everyone stumbles over everyone else. The A/C was on and it still felt like 90 degrees in there.
How can this be helped? Well, adding more buses is out of the question. The sheer length of the route makes it difficult to hold a schedule at 20 minute intervals, there's no way they could make things any more frequent.
The only option I can see is a rail connection between the Rockaways and Rego Park. The easiest way to pull this off: Re-activate the Rockaway Beach branch ROW between Aqueduct and Rego Park. The IND made provisions to connect the former LIRR line to just east (RR north) of 63rd Drive. When the connection was made between the Rockaway line and the Liberty Ave el, they clearly left a provision for a flying junction with the RR line. The whole thing could be done with very little disruption to regular subway service. Nimbys in Rego Park (ashamed to call them my neighbors) can be silenced by walling off the ROW where it comes into close proximity to their backyards. I have friends who live in Broad Channel and the Rockaways who have to use the Q-53 every day to get to school, and are sick of the crowding and the fact that the last bus runs at 10PM. There is a great need for a subway line to connect these two areas, why isn't anyone on our side with this one?
There are a few things in the way if that line ever gets rehabilitated: A bus parking lot on Atlantic Ave. Part of the ROW is covered up by pavement near Forest Park. Lets not forget the endless trail of trees that stretch from Atlantic Ave to the Northern most part of that unused ROW (Ive only walked it once, but go by it often enough). And THE PEOPLE!!!!!!! They will complain about property values going down and noise pollution going up. I would LOVE to see that line rehabilitated and put into good use. Hell, it might even give people an alternate to Coney Island on those HOT STICKY days (Like today and the rest of the week). Why ride the 'F' from Queens to go down to Coney Island when you can ride another line that can get you there in less time and less crowding :)
Anthony
Hell, it might even give people an alternate to Coney Island on those HOT STICKY days (Like today and the rest of the week).
There is an alternative to Coney Island on hot, sticky days like this one, it was invented in 1902 by Willis Haviland Carrier.
Sounds like LI Bus.
It's a shame that the old abandoned Far Rock line was abandoned. The ROW is still intact. Trains from the Queens Blvd line could run to Rockaway. Also if there's a problem on the Fulton A's could run via the Queens B;vd line. It's not a long distance either. The Rockaways would prosper, as it would be much easier for people in central and northern Queens to get there.
Whenever I took the Q53 it wasn't that bad, but I never took it in the height of summer and from what you said I never will. It's still pays to take the subway to Manhattan and back to Queens again.
The Q53 should run more often. It only runs every 15-20 minutes or so and that is not enough.
The Q-53 at its most frequent is every 20 minutes. Weekends and non-rush weekdays it's every 30 minutes. During summer weekends I think they double-up buses (run two for each interval), but that may only be because the bus in front is 25 minutes late after picking everyone up.
You know, Henry, this one's been on my wish list for ages now, I can't make up my mind whether I want it to be a transit (Subway) line or an LIRR link to JFK airport. The good angel on my left shoulder says make it an LIRR link only, don't reopen the stations, do the minimum, the bad angel on my right says go whole hog, make a commuter link AND a subway line, hook it up to the Flatbush branch, four-track it (where possible) and tunnel underneath the apartment block at Union Turnpike. Stations? The original ones, of course: Parkside (Metropolitan), a new one (Forest Park/Union Turnpike - WITH a park-n-ride and exit off the Jackie Robinson), Brooklyn Manor/Jamaica Avenue (transfer to the "J"), Woodhaven (save what's there), Ozone Park (101st Avenue, save what's there), and on the Atlantic Ave LIRR line reopen the Woodhaven station at 102nd Street and connect it to the one above.
There are about 150,000 mature trees along the ROW, so that can make lots of lovely mulch and wood-chips for gardeners and landscapers to use. And it can probably be sawn up into firewood too.
I'm just a pipe-dreamer, I guess.
wayne
How can this be helped? Well, adding more buses is out of the question. The sheer length of the route makes it difficult to hold a schedule at 20 minute intervals, there's no way they could make things any more frequent.
I don't get you. If busses ran more frequently, they would operate on headways, and schedules would be mostly useless.
The only option I can see is a rail connection between the Rockaways and Rego Park.
An option for what? Is ReGo Park some sort of commercial high rise development that has a lot of people from the Rockaways working? Or do you feel that all railroad lines have to converge on your home?
The IND made provisions to connect the former LIRR line to just east (RR north) of 63rd Drive.
Where would you find the capacity for this? Tell people filling up trains in Jamaica that the needs of the few (in the Rockaways) outweigh the needs of the many (in Jamaica Estates, Jamaica, Briarwood, Kew Gardens, Forest Hills and all of the two-mode communities in the east and southeast)?
There is a great need for a subway line to connect these two areas
What great need? The people in the many bedroom communities in the vast Rockaways need to get to the central business district in ReGo Park? Or does "great need" translate into "desire by me?"
A better line to the rockaways could kill 2 birds with one stone: make it LIRR direct access to penn station - so NYC can actually compete with every other major city on this planet and actually have a quality, one seat ride to the airport, as well as better service to the rockaways which would lead to better development and use of the place... though i know playland will hate me for saying that! =) (but then again, he could get into the city in what? a half hour? 45 minutes at the most?).
I, for one, having endured the trip to the rockaways one time too many this summer, have absolutely no intention to go back anytime soon, and i know i'm not alone in that mentality: thus there's less seasonal cash coming into the area, and continued urban blight.
"so NYC can actually compete with every other major city on this planet and actually have a quality, one seat ride to the airport, "
There aready is a "one seat ride" to the airport.
It is called a Helicopter! : )
Elias
well once helicopters are affordable to everyone... there won't be a problem... !
Once upon a time, (back in the late 1970s, an employer wanted me to take box out to Kennedy Airport, for one of the company execuitives was goint to take ti with him on a flight to Europe. She gave me $20. and said to take a cab to the airport. The cab took every bit of that $20, and so I took the bus and subway home arriving there at 7PM.
When you add my salary, taxi and rail fares, and my overtime, it would have indeed been cheaper to take the helicopter. In those days,I think it was only about $50.00.
In any event, I never rode on the helicopter : (
Elias
Was this when there was still a heliport atop the PanAm building?
That was a good idea, they should have worked out the safety instead of just closing it right then.
Actually I think that would be an ideal place for Zepplin service ( I am serious).
I mean from the Pan Am building to the airport, not Zepplins from the Sears in Rego Park to the Rockaways.
they should have worked out the safety instead of just closing it
There was/is no way to completely work out the safety issues. Moreover, the killed/maimed are likely to be non-passengers. This raises the liability questions to the city up a quantum leap.
No that heliport was already closed. They were using a pier at the end of East 34th street. My employer was also on East 34th Street.
Elias
First of all the IND connection would be to the local. So there goes your Mr. Spock mentality.
Trains could run to Roosevelt terminal station or some place in Manhattan (or hell, maybe the crosstown). In this instance there could be three Queens Blvd services because:
1. The main reason there can't be now is because of turnaround at 71/Continental.
2. Whatever line does run there would need only be at 15-20 minute intervals during the height of the work rush and beach rush, 30 minutes all other times. Compared to what they currently have to deal with, this is an excellent level of service.
Second, I am not doing this totally out of a selfish desire. Rego Park is the ideal location for a connection to another subway line because the existing ROW already goes there! Only about 1/4 mile tunneling would be needed. It would replace the bus that currently does this exact thing. Every morning I see crush loaded buses ditch 3/4 of their passengers at 63rd Drive, and most everyone goes for the subway, despite the fact that the bus continues on and eventually encounters the LIRR and an express station. Rego Park also has the Q38, Q59, and Q72 buses that bring people to homes.
I don't appreciate your calling me black, Mr. Pot.
In case you haven't figured it out, I'm talking about your subject line.
First of all the IND connection would be to the local. So there goes your Mr. Spock mentality.
What good would that do? Who would want to put up with a local ride on top of an already long ride from the Rockaways? This loses any advantage over the A.
Trains could run to Roosevelt terminal station or some place in Manhattan (or hell, maybe the crosstown). In this instance there could be three Queens Blvd services because:
Where in Manhattan? As for running along crosstown or to Roosevelt, total waste spending that much money just to build a lousy shuttle.
The main reason there can't be now is because of turnaround at 71/Continental.
71/Continental has four lower-level tracks that can be used to relay, it isn't a problem terminating.
Whatever line does run there would need only be at 15-20 minute intervals during the height of the work rush and beach rush, 30 minutes all other times.
Spend millions of dollars to build a line that runs these kinds of headways? That one sentence just killed your entire argument, by showing how little utility such a line would have.
Compared to what they currently have to deal with, this is an excellent level of service.
No it isn't. People might not be crowded, but the wait is the same. It makes much more sense to increase bus service. Fewer crowds, shorter headways, and most importantly of all: it's CHEAPER.
Second, I am not doing this totally out of a selfish desire. Rego Park is the ideal location for a connection to another subway line because the existing ROW already goes there! Only about 1/4 mile tunneling would be needed.
So what? Your goal is to use every bit of dead row? Things die for a reason, they're not needed anymore. This is such a situation.
The fact that it may be easy to be done does not justify whether it should be done.
It would replace the bus that currently does this exact thing.
There are hundreds of busses in the city, are you going to replace all of them? Many of which operate more frequently and are more fully loaded than this one.
Every morning I see crush loaded buses ditch 3/4 of their passengers at 63rd Drive
This isn't the only bus in the city that is crush loaded, then has all of its customers leave at one subway station. In fact, it is quite clear that with twenty minute headways it doesn't come anywhere near carrying the loads that justify a subway.
Rego Park also has the Q38, Q59, and Q72 buses that bring people to homes.
What are you trying to say? Do you want subways to replace all of these lines too?
Yes, there are 4 tracks downstairs but a problem exists on a daily basis at 71st/CTL terminal. Time to clean out the train, sometimes to find a T/O to make the relay move. Train coming out of the relay while one is waiting to go in, it adds up and creates a log jam. Something happens on the road and they arrive in bunches at times. Two tracks are generally used to make the relays but in certain situations they use the other two to make what are called "long relays" which is the equivalent of going all the way out to Union Tpke.
Soon the Airtrain will run between Howard Beach and Jamaica via the Airport. I wonder how many people will use both portions of it to get across Queens quickly. All the promotion about it talks about the Jamaica-JFK & HB-JFK branches as if they are not really one long line between Jamaica and Howard via JFK. They may be surprised by this alternative usage.
Not for $10 they won't.
I live in Rockaway, and have to constantly deal with this kind of crap. Pity me. However, I do propose a field trip to the ROW. Anybody interested?
Hello Playland, I shall be joining you tonight undr the cover of "NYPD NIGHT OUT AGAINST CRIME" enjoying our festival "Crime out against all" See you then. Im glad you dropped TUTORING for your own good, No more blasted Babylon Q53 and more Rasta A train.
we should do this row someday - but i say fall or early winter. it's too damn hot, with too many damned bugs around there.
Call me nuts, but it seems that the ability to fill up one bus every twenty minutes is hardly compelling evidence of the need for a subway line.
CG
You need to see it firsthand. there is a line at 116 on rockaway for the bus, often a very, very long line. factor in the laxidasical A/S service, the opprutunity to create a one seat ride to JFK, and you have a pretty decent case for reopening that line. Plus the area would likely develop more and thus contribute further to the tax base.
A small blurb in Monday's Philly Inquirer (print edition) says that 20 redbirds per week will be sunk for 20 weeks beginning Aug 20. They are being stripped of wheels, motors, compressors, glass, plastic and passengers. The asbestos will stay, since it's benign when wet.
:_-(
That sucks.
That sucks.
I don't know. The 'birds are going anyway. You'd prefer they be cut up? Maybe someday there'll be a SubTalk tour--bring your snorkel!
>> You'd prefer they be cut up? Maybe someday there'll be a SubTalk tour--bring your snorkel! <<
Indeed. It seems to me a most honorable "last stop" for these cars. Personally, I much prefer this fate for the Redbirds to the indignity of "the torch".
And now, if you'll be so very kind as to permit me to mix metaphors... that's my two cents, your mileage may vary.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Atlantis Metro, here we come!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Or maybe the new Venice subway...
Mark
I would prefer to see them used as a reef rather than to suffer death by dismemberment at Nimco, the cruel fate that befell the R10 GOH cars. I'm still in mourning over that one.
wayne
Not to mention the premature slaughter of the Triplexes in 1964-65.
It's too bad they didn't run the R-10s for one last revenue trip on the A.
They are being stripped of wheels, motors, compressors, glass, plastic and passengers.
I'm told there will be one passenger on the first one - the official photographer, Salaamallah, will be at the railfin window :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
wrong again dynasoaur breath !!.........he he he he he he he he !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Sniff) (Sniff) (Uncontrollable crying.) (Wrists being slit.) MY POOR REDBIRDS!
Now now ... there there ... like so much else the city's tossed in the Ocean, you can go visit them when they wash up on the shore at Jones Beach or Point Pleasant in a couple of years. :P
I need help to get my Second Avenue Plan out to the masses. To gain support, so that the newspapers and the city hears about this plan. I have tried but I dont know how to get the newspapers or the city to listen to my plan. If anyone can contact the newspapers and let them know about the plan I will appreaciate it. If anyone can show me ways to get this plan out to the people, I will appreaciate it.
Well, the way media usually picks up ideas is if they come with some kind of imprimateur, like as a result of a study some institution has paid for, or from a well-known personage, or from an advocacy group that has the ear of the press.
You might try to see if something like the Straphanger's Campaign might be interested, or you could try to present it to community boards or interested organizations along the route. If you try this, you need to be prepared to answer questions like: what makes you think plan could get adopted? what credentials do you have? is anyone in power interested in your plan?
It's really tough.
A start might be to write some good keywords for your plan for your website and try to get it submitted to search engines.
hey christopher... since heypaul heavy industries is the prime contractor for your multi-billion dollar project, rest assured that i will get the money into the right hands word out to the media, just as soon as you sign and return our contract...
I never recieved the contract
"you never received the contract"??
come on christopher... it was a one page triple spaced typewritten page agreeing that all the funds would go into the bank account of heypaul heavy industries and that all workers would be guaranteed a minimum wage and a decent burial if by chance our crudely constructed tunnels should collapse on them...
i'll send you another copy...
6 hours later
where is it? I thought he would send it quickly
Uh, could you use a SUB-contractor???? ;-)
BMTman
Heypaul Heavy Industries, huh? What happenned to the Heypaul Construction Company?
How about doing like MTA and folding said proposal
three times over nicely, admiring it's petite size,
and depositing it into the nearest mcdonald's bin.
Or.... you could stand on any streetcorner in the
vicinity of Times Square with megaphone handy
and give those other unknown gospel crooners
a run for their money..... at a crowd of
walkman toting, ear plugged passerbys.
Those are 2 ideas which are crazy in my mind. I was taught to never give up and to fight for what you believe until there is nothing left to fight for and you know you've done your best. I know the odds are high against a 16 year old from the bronx, but it just makes me happier because it is a true challenge. Even if this plan fails the colleges will see my hard work and effort and accept me. So my future will be greatly helped by this project whether I win or loose.
I know the odds are high against a 16 year old from the bronx
That's not the biggest challenge here. The biggest challenge is that your proposal is huge. It will require many billions of dollars, which NYC doesn't have and can't get. And it will require overcoming tremendous NIMBY opposition. Only on SubTalk does everyone want a subway built through their neighborhood-- in the real world, many people DON'T want transit to be built near them, and will spend millions of dollars on lobbying and lawsuits to make sure that it's not built.
In short, it's a transportation megaproject in an era when transportation megaprojects don't happen. It's great to dream big, but saying that the hardest part is to get people to listen to a 16 year old from the Bronx is misidentifying your challenge. ANYONE proposing the same plan will have difficulty getting anyone to listen, unless they're a multibillionaire ready to back up the plan with their own money.
Anyone knows Bill Gates Phone Number?
Maybe an e-mail from Hotmail would be better :)
1-800-ABCDEFG
ya it's Hooked on Phonics, but with your
ambition... ya might get him to talk the
same language as thou.
:)
Let's see:
You're 16 years old, which means that in about ten years time, you could very well start to make decisions that will impact on New York City's future.
1) Did you get the TOPO CD that I told you about? It's about $50, but God bless the day that I did that. It allows you to do preliminary engineering. Very difficult, but look at sites like raildata.railfan.net to see how railroads set up their grade profiles and elevations. Then, follow the instructions on the TOPO site to find the elevations along your route.
2) Put together a business and financial plan. You will need to do ridership projections for this as well as LOTS OF HELP! Do a search for the Roosevelt Boulevard Corridor study and you will get unit cost for your system. The $20 billion dollars that you estimate is WAY TOO LOW. Those costs will help you refine it. Also look at www.calmaglev.org, where a detailed plan was created for their system. B-plans.com will help you with your business plan.
3) Speak to guys like George Haikalis and groups like the RPA. These two resources are very good at giving out technical pointers for designing mass transit systems. They will be very helpful. Check out RPA's plan at www.rpa.org to see how they organized their presentation of their plan.
4) Wait to get feedback from us. Most of the people that post here work in transit or study it hard enough that they know potential pitfalls you will meet in your plan. Post or e-mail them and they will be sure to help you sharpen your plan.
5) Press releases are good once you have done the above. Pull out big points, like direct access to Staten Island and JFK Airport. Whatever you feel is important about the plan, put it on there.
6) DO NOT MAKE YOUR AGE A FACTOR! If you are serious enough to self-copyright this plan, then you must feel that this plan has some value. Your plan is very rough, but understand that diamonds come out that way at first. If you plan to do more than use this plan as a paper weight, don't mention your age. If you do, everyone's going to say how CUTE it is for a 16 year old from the Bronx to want to do something good for the world, but your plan will be waved off as curious doodlings by a youngster. You don't want to waste your work like that. Besides, every tanked plan makes it harder for the next guy. I have been working on my plan for about five years now, and it has evolved from a monorail to commuter rail. I plan to unveil it in the spring once my technical aspects are done.
Sounds like a lot of work? It is, but it you want it done, do it right THE first time. Take your time, organize your plan into a polished format, and then present it. The MTA won't say much about their plan until the spring, so take the rest of the year and sharpen it. Then, in January or February (IF YOU ARE READY), launch it so that you get in front of them. Rushing it to the press will not get a hard look and will make it worse when you make your plan stronger because they won't even bother. Be patient and make your plan stronger.
Trust me. I'm 18 years old, and I have talked several operators into doing trial runs on Staten Island for new bus service. I don't have any capital of my own, but when you look long enough, you'll find someone willing to invest. As soon as the company I'm collaborating with finds another driver, that bus is back on the road, so anyone with a Class BP CDL and some free time during weekday rush hours, e-mail me. And I made it a point never to feature my age, because my plan was so much more important.
I'm fairly busy, but e-mail me with questions and I will see what I can help you with.
Does anyone have information between 1997 and 2000 about O/D to and from New York-Penn Station to the following stations:
Wallingford
Meriden
Berlin
Hartford
Windsor
Windsor Locks
Springfield
Worcester
Framingham
Albany-Rensselaer
Schenectady
Amsterdam
Utica
Rome
Syracuse
Rochester
BuffalO-Depew
Buffalo-Exchange Street
Niagara Falls, NY
Toronto
Montreal
Any piece of the puzzle would be appreciated.
What's an O/D?
In case, the second list of stations that you have mentioned are all stops of AMTRAK's Empire Service en route to Niagara Falls and beyond to Ontario.
Toronto is accessible by the (X) train (I have to search the schedule)
and Montreal is accessible by the AMTRAK's Adirondack train.
: )
Railfan Pete.
"Toronto is accessible by the ? train."
Maple Leaf.
"What's an O/D? "
Read the "re" line.
The first set of stations are all on Amtrak's Inland Route to Boston via Springfield.
Sounds like you need old Amtrak timetables. right?
Not quite. Origin/destination information is collected via ticket sales. The information I am looking for is how many tickets were sold in any year between 1997-2000 between New York and Wallingford, Wallingford-New York, New York-Meriden etc...
Got an URL for all this?
I saw Paul's debut on 'Gotham TV' and was impressed with the footage that was used (Franklin Avenue station's glass window designs as well as stills from the Malbone Street Wreck).
You looked like a real pro there, Paul. I'm pleased that none of us had to purchase one-way tickets to Paraguay, although you should be aware that heypaul had already booked a flight for a little 'R&R' (no, it had nothing to do with railroading) in anticipation of a rush to the airline ticket counters.
Too bad they didn't include anything on the Avenue H Stationhouse...
(maybe next time ;-)
At least finally got your 'airtime'.
BMTman
On the bridge, which side is the A/B tracks and which are the H tracks?
The A side is the section that is currently out of service due to the Manny Bridge rehab. Making the H side, the current section that is in service presently at this time.
OK, so where are the C-D tracks and the E-F tracks?
Gee.... Lets just dump the cars off of the bridge and put more tracks on it, That way we could put the Chambers Street Terminal back into the service that it never had 100 years ago!
: ) Elias
YES! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
On the bridge, which side is the A/B tracks and which are the H tracks?
Hey Tony,
HOW many copies of my book do you have, and you ask this??? :-)
North side tracks are A/B (changeover occuring at chainage 243, which occurs at the Manhattan/Brooklyn border). H Tracks are on the south-side.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Hmmmmmm. Keep getting rude and I may not buy any more copies. ^_^ Yeah, right! Your book is like my marijuana! BTW, what's the progress on 3.0?
Hmmmmmm. Keep getting rude and I may not buy any more copies. ^_^ Yeah, right! Your book is like my marijuana!
Thanks....
I think :-)
It is just a book, after all. Just do me a favour and *don't* roll it up and try to smoke it. I don't want to be held responsible for singing your eyebrows!
BTW, what's the progress on 3.0?
It's on track (pun completely intended) for mid-to-late September now, but may be delayed if hot weather prevents me from spending a lot of time underground checking things out. Also with the haze it's hard to get good pictures, and I still need a cover shot!
I'm planning on expanding text coverage from 18 pages to around 25-35 (maybe more), and I'm hoping to include a bunch of new photographs.
I'm also hoping to find a source to get me and my cameras and notepad into a couple of towers and perhaps a yard or two. I'm going to try and include old depictions of Broadway Junction (including the Fulton El) and Queensboro Plaza. I will also re-draw PATH's underground portions to be more life-like rather than in schematic form as they are now.
I was really hoping to do more on abandoned stations but unfortunately my TA-source of access to some of these jewels has dried up, alas. (BTW, If anyone can assist in this quest please e-mail off-list. Thanks).
Hey, I just had a thought. I was looking at my Hagstrom's map and I was wondering if anybody would be interested in a laminated version of the book instead of just plain-old paper? It would probably double the cost (or at least add about $25 to it), but it would be infinitely more durable than the plain-paer ones out there. Whaddya think?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
If no one else wants it, do one just for me. I will pay it.
If no one else wants it, do one just for me. I will pay it.
Unless I can find a cheap source for it, I don't think even *you* could afford it. I just priced out laminating today and the best price I could find is just under 80 cents per page. Most places were about $1 a page. Everyone says that if I get a big enough order together I can get a small price break.
Just for comparison's sake, a new-style Hagstrom's 5-borough map is $15 on regular paper and $40 laminated (cover prices). My book sells for $37, and is roughly 60 pages (120 impressions) now. I'm keeping the $37 price even though it will jump up to about 75-80 pages in version three. I suspect laminating would make it too costly. If I can do it for without adding any more than $20-$25 to the cost, I'll get it done if interest is strong enough.
I'll see what kind of feedback I can get from folks here and through nyc.transit and decide accordingly. I think it's one of those "this would be a great idea IF..." kinds of deals.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Peter, I'd pay a few extra ducats for laminated pages but no more than 20% above the unlaminated price.
How about publishing that foldup version you promised, and laminating that. (Wouldn't that be considered "one page"?) I would love something like that.
How about publishing that foldup version you promised, and laminating that. (Wouldn't that be considered "one page"?) I would love something like that.
That one or two page format is still a very long way off right now. Maybe towards the end of the year. It's a question of files in several different formats at present, and figuring out a way to do a one or two page map without having to re-annotate everything.
Check back on the website in the fall and maybe I'll have had some luck getting things the way I want.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Where's the false wall located at the end of B5 and B6 Tracks at 2nd Avenue? It appears to have been abducted by thieves in the night.... Spending a week away from the booth at 2nd Avenue, I returned today to find the tunnel behind the wall in full view for what is a first time sighting for me. There is virtually no lighting, no signals, but track and 3rd Rail intact. I wonder if a train has ever pulled into the end of the tunnel?
What could they be up to? It could be one of the many improvements planned for the V service.
-Stef
Would they take a chance to actually open up the back to maybe have 2 lay-ups for V service. If they are in fact long enough for a full length train.
I'm doubtful a full 600 foot train can get in there. According to Peter D.'s trackbook, B5 and B6 extend 535 feet outside of the station to the wall. Now if they intend on using 60 foot cars at an 8 car length, then I think someone hit the jackpot.
The switch for B5 and B6 was replaced and is finished.
-Stef
I think that they're putting in those tracks as a buffer to let trains enter faster, like at Times Square on the 7.
That's just speculation on my part.
It may be speculation but nevertheless, a valid point. They may want to try and get these V trains into and out of the station as soon as possible. One problem though. The signal circuits need to be modified. As it stands right now, the Train Operator must take a call on to get into B5 and B6 from Broadway-Lafayette. Will this change with the V?
-Stef
As it stands right now, the Train Operator must take a call on to get into B5 and B6 from Broadway-Lafayette.
Stef, what is your source for this? From what I can see on my signal drawings, southboud out of Broadway-Lafayette is all automatics until the Chrystie Street Cut diverging homeball (86-ball). Here you take three yellows. Then you need a call-on at 34-ball for moves across the crossover into Second Avenue. Or am I splitting hairs? :-)
My guess, and that's all it is, is that call-on requirement will be replaced with a straight bottom-yellow at 34 heading into the terminal. Might that have been part of the recent rebuilding of the switch?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
My mistake. You're right. I meant to say to take three yellows coming off B1, then get the call-on heading into the crossover on B5 and B6. Sorry!
Funny enough, this information is posted on the wall near the punch box on the southbound track at Bway-Lafayette.
A set of punch boxes on B5, B6, and B2 at 2nd Avenue is available for the governing of moves northbound to the express track past Bway-Lafayette (don't recall seeing these previously). Two options on the box: Local and Express.
-Stef
I'm doubtful a full 600 foot train can get in there. According to Peter D.'s trackbook, B5 and B6 extend 535 feet outside of the station to the wall. Now if they intend on using 60 foot cars at an 8 car length, then I think someone hit the jackpot.
This is a to-scale drawing of B5 and B6. Using signal numbers for approximate chainage distances I calculated the tracks as being about 535 feet in length. In any event, just by looking at them, it's plain to see that both are shorter than the actual platform.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
That's great research. Keep up the good work....
-Stef
The diagram of this section in the Tracks of the NYC Subway page is incorrect in that it doesn't accurately show whether the uptown F track goes over or under the stub tracks -- it makes it look as though the uptown track is east of the end of the stubs, which I don't believe it is. The diagram above at least shows them intersecting.
The diagram of this section in the Tracks of the NYC Subway page is incorrect in that it doesn't accurately show whether the uptown F track goes over or under the stub tracks -- it makes it look as though the uptown track is east of the end of the stubs, which I don't believe it is. The diagram above at least shows them intersecting.
This is actually one of the items on my list of corrections for the third edition. What I didn't include in that to-scale drawing in my earlier post was the profile of the tracks in that area. Tail tacks B5 and B6 rise on a 3% grade for about 250 feet or so past the south end of the station, then rise at about 1.25% for the remainder. B2 track descends beneath B5 and B6 at about a 2.7% gradient.
In short, B2 and B1 are lower than B5/6 compass-east of 2nd Ave. What I find most interesting about this is that B5&6 were supposed to be heading for a deep-river tube heading across the East River. I'm wondering why B5 and B6 weren't engineered to descend below the levels of B1 and B2 through that region making a "future" deep tunnel connection easier.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Maybe because at 2nd Avenue you're still 6 blocks from the river and they might have thought that they would have a station at Avenue A or B.
I have been back there. A 600 foot train cannot fit in there.
I am told (and this info might be out of date) that they intend to create a crossover platform at the south end (similar to Canal St on the J) to allow people to access the SB and NB platforms easily.
But then who knows? They have until November to get it all sorted out.
We shall see........ Those people riding the V need to get to their train as quickly as posible without going up the stairs and down another.
-Stef
STORY
Peace,
ANDEE
This seems to be getting commonplace, unfortunately... in fact, I think this makes at least 27 for the year so far. Two have been killed at Red Bank in the past month (and the Asbury Park Press indicated that the second of those was NJT's 26th of the year).
On the other hand, maybe it's not any more common than it ever has been... I don't know what the statistics are for prior years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's a little more info in the Bergen Record.
Hmmmm...sounds fairly deleberate unfortuantely...I ALMOST took that train in yesterday [see my other post(s)]
Do not blame NJT for this one, people like me are dumb enough to "play" on the tracks, but I know when a train is coming so I know when to move, anyways, I'm sure the train blew it's horn, and the person just wanted to get to work, idiot...
I cancel my post with chuchubobs story in place...Sorry!
ARTICLE about cable show, Subway Q and A.
Peace,
ANDEE
Gee I thought you were talking about MrX2001 and his Q and A!!
I saw them taping a few weeks ago at the Lexington Avenue/53rd Street station
Inbeween ferrying [literally!] some REAL out-of-town relatives [KANSAS,believe it or not!] out to the Staue of Liberty, got to SQUEEZE some running around in..starting with my usual Redbird run up Broadway:EXCELLENT!!!!! Had a [female] T/O who was NOT afraid to wrap it around hrd..especially between TS-96th St....nice HARD jolt at 59th! Question 1: Are there more 'stickys' [thats what I call them...]DOWNTOWN on the Lex as opposed to UPtown?? Or does NYC Transit suddenly turn some of them off during the Rush hours?? Going downtown at 11 am saw a milllion downtown..while going UPtown at 4-ish saw ZERO...[except of course the station timers at GCT..]
Question 2: On the R-142s...what do the stickers next to the doors mean?? Saw two side by side: a triangle and a star...Also had an 142 with a malfunctioning door [already!]
Also got to ride the Manhattan Bridge south tracks for the first time in my life [maybe...] SEEMS like they have the business at 57th-7th working fairly smooth for peak times....
ALSO, while waiting at 149 st for a 5, got a NICE peek at the 'control screen' in a R142 on the 2...NEATO! Tells you everything except the indoor temp.......]
Seems like things arent running as smooth as they were at the beginning..or maybe NJT just had a bad day all around...On my train 58 [arr 855 am] we had a nice long wait outside the tunnel, and coming OUT at 5:44, about three trains sat there for a nice long time...Speaking of the 5:44,NJT has GOT to find something with a tad more power than those GP4os...this schedule is 5 cars long, and you just TELL that engine was straining....we ended up being a HALF hour late....
When the tunnel reconstruction first started delays of 5 minutes or more were common. Lately it has been better. This week for some reason the delays are back. I dunno.
They seem to be running trains through the tunnel with 30 second headways. Why were they claiming they needed 7 minute headways before?
I've seen GP40s pull 6-car consists at 60 MPH+...perhaps the particular engine you had was due for a tune-up.
Now that I am on vacation, I would like to ride on NJTransit and ride all the lines if possible. My questions is this, which lines only run ONE WAY during rush hour?...I wanted to do this during the week and as early in the day as possible. I remember reading somewhere that some NJTransit line only run westbound during the morning rush hours and not eastbound. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The Pascack Valley Line runs one way during rush...don't know if there are others.
Peace,
ANDEE
Raritan Valley Line only has one reverse service train during the the day. 7:14 am to NJ, 4:43pm from NJ. Also the AM rush has only 4 trips but the PM service has 6.
Wow, I thought the RVL had more service than that.
He meant service out as far as High Bridge. RVL *does* have much more service as far as Raritan. I used to ride it every day.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
At around 3 PM there is a decent departure for High Bridge, not technically peak yet and still leaves enough time for a round trip to be home for dinner.
Also, the Boonton line is effectively a one-way line if you want to ride the whole thing (there are a couple of reverse trips which only go as far as Great Notch). You can still cover the Boonton line by taking the first train (used to be around 1:30 PM) from Hoboken out to Dover via the Boonton line, and then catching a return trip on the Morris & Essex lines.
CG
Check out NJT's timetables.
The trip on our Port Jervis Line is VERY doable- you take the first train in the morning to Port, and you wil have about an hour layover in Port Jervis-enough time to walk up to Homer's for lunch and still inspect the turntable.......
Try the Pascack Valley Line. This is the ONLY line of the NJT where there are only TWO AM rush hour trains from Spring Valley, NY to Hoboken inbound. In the afternoon, there are only TWO PM rush hour trains to Spring Valley from Hoboken.
I am in the process of Railfanning on NJT with my dad every Saturday. We've rode on every single line EXCEPT the Boonton Line, Montclair Branch, and the Pascack Valley line because they only run on WEEKDAYS.
If you have lots of time, you can spare a ride ALL THE WAY TO PORT JERVIS. A ONE-WAY trip takes about 2 1/2 hours, and the ONLY train back from there will be around 25 minutes later. My dad and I had a lot of fun.
The North Jersey Coast Line will REALLY bring you back lots of precious MEMORIES. Try it to Bay Head and see!
You can contact me if you have any questions or simply visit this site:
If you want a detailed SCHEDULE with a descriptive MAP at (copy and paste this link): www.nj.com/njtransit
If you don't visit this site, you may have a little trouble navigating the NJT rail lines. Good luck.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
There are more PVL trains than two!
I like the fact that the PVL schedule has "round trip excursion" tickes as an option. Considering that all inbound trips are peak you'd never use one half of the ticket except for: day after thanksgiving; half-holidays such as MLK, Presidents', and Columbus.
If you are going to go down to Trenton, do it on one of the Trenton Expresses.
The first one leaves at 5:03 PM, and the second at 6:33 PM. They absolutely kick butt between Newark and New Brunswick.
If you wish to do the Pascack Valley line, there is an easy way:
Take the 2:37 PM train all the way to Spring Valley. Upon arrival, you can take the Tappan Zee Express ($1.25) to White Plains where you can catch Metro North Railroad back. TZX leaves about 10 minutes after train arrival.
Or, you can pay $5 at Spring Valley and ride the 44(45?) express to PABT or the 11A/11C local to PABT/GWBT (respectively).
Hi,
Can someone help me with directions to NJ's Asbury Park (sorry if I spelled the name incorrectly)...I would like to go by train (as opposed to bus)...I'm coming from my beloved Sea Beach N train...thanks.
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
NJTransits North Jersey Coast line stops at Asbury Park frequent departures from Penn Station NYC. NJTRANSIT WEBSITE
Peace,
ANDEE
Can someone help me with directions to NJ's Asbury Park (sorry if I spelled the name incorrectly)...I would like to go by train (as opposed to bus)...I'm coming from my beloved Sea Beach N train...thanks.
Just look for what appears to be the aftermath of a 10-megaton atomic bomb blast, and you've just found Asbury Park!
I hope you're not going in search of the amusements.
now how the hell would i think to get on a Work train. Besides i am not stupid. If anyone is dumb its you for representing the J line. The J has so many timers it can't even be considered a real express. Alot of Motormen i know avoid the J line because those R40Ms and R42 siver bullets are too damn slow! Only time J is good is when it is express between marcy and myrtle. Oh and by the way, those who work in lower manhattan who can take the E or J to Jamaica Center, no one picks the J!! Your like that old Gang A.O.D Army of Darkness. No one likes you! Not the bloods or the Crips!
What are you talking about?
what i am talking about is post 248065 and 248071. I would like to apologize to J Trainloco.
Zman is right E and J crews get along so we can too.
I agree, they need to bring back the express from Myrtle to Eastern Parkway. Let the Z run express and run the J local from Eastern Parkway to Marcy...
Skip Stop Sucks...
Frank D
The J and E line crews get along quite well with each other, thank you! Maybe you 2 guys should try!
They do??
As Bill knows, there's a little bit of a joke going on between the E and J crews.
The J crews say that you can always tell when someone is working the E line during his lunch break. He has time to chew his lunch or swallow it. Not both.
LOL! Yes, yes!
sorry about that last post
IGNORE IT
i do like the J and i do hang with Motorman on the J. So lets not continue this. Besides i want to be able to get along with everone
so Shouts to J TRAINLOCO
J RULES
by the way i do like the J for its views.
nice nose.
>>> sorry about that last post <<<
Am I getting incredibly stupid or what? On my browser this looked like the start of a thread. What last post are you referring to? If this is some private thing between you and J Trainloco, why don't you try e-mail or the telephone, and not waste everyone else's time.
Tom
Gee Tom, despite your sometimes abrasive personality, you occasionally make sense.
>>If this is some private thing between you and J Trainloco, why don't you try e-mail or the telephone, and not waste everyone else's time.<<
He could've continued in the thread he was referring to, but he chose not to. (I don't know why).
In case you haven't noticed, I do not have my e-mail address accessible to everyone here, and I don't know "E to JAMAICA CENTER" personally. This is NOT a private thing.
Interestingly enough, I'm NOT a J train fan. The J stands for my first initial. Everybody says the same thing as you though....
Maybe I should change my handle...
Handles tend to speak for themselves, brah..
Not to mention they become an instant 'presumption'
when the ever-popular (yet, repetitious) "What's
your favorite subway line?" thread comes out of
hibernation for another giddyup... but the answer
always stays the same.
I asked several Motormen on the 2 and 6 and they love the R142s. I did like the Redbirds, but everything has its season. The Redbirds time is gone! I just wanted to say forget all the things i said about the Redbirds. The reason i did this is I talked to a Motorman and he says the computers make their Job easier. Anyways i do like the R142As better than the R142. Anyways i just wanted to say sorry and forget what i said. R142s are the newest subway cars. I like them alot and i am taking alot of new pics of them. By the way how do i send in pics to Subtalk?
Who cares, I mean really. I would like all the people who actually truly care about his preferences to respond to this, with, I REALLY CARE
You and J train are starting to sound more like me than I do.
LoL
Most of the guys on the IRT would be impressed by windshield wipers that moved THEMSELVES rather than by hand. Anything beyond this is a blessing. :)
By the way how do i send in pics to Subtalk?
You'll need what is called HTML to plug into your response. You'll need the (a href=....> format for a link, and (u>,(i>,and (b> respectively for underlining, italics, and bold type face.
After you've figured out your necessary HTML language, then voila, you can post your own pics on this SubTalk!
I am trying to get my own pics here too. But not until I can figure out and learn something about HTML and scan into my computer the actual photo that I have.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The HTML Code to insert a picture on the forum is not difficult, if you want to see what it is, go to a post that has a picture on it and then is (and I forget, eventhough I run a big webside of my own (I don't use hand coding)) right click on the page and select "View Source".
More than this, you need you own website somewhere on which to host the photograps you want to display (unless mayhap you have DSL service and want to go through the TROUBLE of hosting them on your own computer. (NOT RECOMMENDED BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, But possible anyway)
I was Volunteering at the museum on Friday. During a tour this lady asked about the R142As on the 6 line. Then she asked why is the MTA playing favoritism by giving the IRT new cars before the lettered trains? I didn't know what to tell her. I did mention the R143s tho
Did you tell her that the numbered trains and the lettered trains are actually two distinct divisions??? With different width/length dimensions for equipment? That might have helped.
BMTman
...and that the A division trains are older...so, that is why they are getting replaced first.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's what I was going to say. The oldest cars on the IND/BMT are the R-32's, the oldest of which were built in 1964, making them newer than the "newest" Redbirds.
Thanks Andee, you are a wellspring of knowledge...
BMTman
And that the redbirds are being held in one piece by spit, gum, bondo, duck tape and a prayer.
I was wondering how does everyone get their pics on subtalk. I have some R142A pics that i might want u guys to see
If you want to add them to the general collection of pics on www.nycsubway.org you can email them to me and I'll post them into the collection. If you just want them to appear in a post and NOT contribute to the site in general you'll need to have your own web site to host them on, and just type in links in your messages.
I've noticed that when trains arrive at Penn Station to pick up eastbound passengers, it sometimes takes up to a full minute for the conductors to open the doors. This delay causes massive crowds to gather at the car doors and makes entry difficult. Why does this happen?
It seems to happen on the subways as well. While not an explanation,
it seems the air is dumped first and then the doors are opened. A possible explanation is that the dumping of the air is a signal that the train isn't going to move because the train is spotted correctly for layover and it's safe to unload the train.
Just a guess
Michael
It should only happen in the subways when a train enters from a storage area. This is because a conductor usually is not assigned to trains originating from these area's. In addition, the leaving conductor is not required to be on the train more than 2 minutes prior to departure.
I've noticed that when trains arrive at Penn Station to pick up eastbound passengers, it sometimes takes up to a full minute for the conductors to open the doors. This delay causes massive crowds to gather at the car doors and makes entry difficult. Why does this happen?
I don't know, but this happens at line stations too. Trains stop, and quite some time elapses before the doors open. Usually it's not more than 30 seconds or so, but it seems interminable. Metro North almost never has any such delays.
On the LIRR they have to wake up in the first car (crew car that is closed all the time). Fumble around to find the right key, remember which side to open and open up. I always think the LIRR should install an alarm clock like device that goes off when the engineer dumps the train to wake up the crew to open the doors.
The first car is not closed in the rush hours........the delay of opening doors happens because the personell are busy punching/sellling tickets and answering (dumb)questions.
At line stations, I think it might be because the conductor responsible for opening the doors is busy collecting fares and therefore has to run to the nearest compartment to open the doors after the train stops. Doesn't explain the Penn Station delay though.
A YARD Crew brings the train into the station and leaves.
The ROAD crew must then enter the train to open it up.
Once open, the Enginer must do a brake test, which is required everytime he removes and or inserts his key. In Penn Station a Car Knocker is responsible for conducting the brake test with the engineer, and must sometimes wait for the Road Engineer to insert his key and respond with the brakes. Sometimes the train crew must wait for a car knocker to come from another platform.
When the train goes from the West Side yrad to Jamaica, there is no crew change at Penn Station. The Road crew takes it all the way.
There was no West Side Yard when I worked in New York.
Are you seure the *whole* crew is on for this move.
and certainly the conductor is not waiting at his station like they do on the subway.
Elias
Wrong!
Class II (Rear end) Brake tests are done by the crew with the brakeman in the last unit and the engineer in the operating compartment. When a train comes out West Side Yard that particular crew might have boarded there and did the brake test, if not a Drill Crew will bring the train from West Side Yard. They do not have to wait for this so-called car knocker. Crew gets on, certifiies the ASC and does the brake test.
Well, when I was riding the LIRR there was no west side yard, and the trains were brought in by yard crews, and the brake test was done by the car knocker, not by the conductor.
I stood right there and watched him day after day, year after year, on the 4:10 train to Babylon....
Elias
Hot Off The Presses SIRTOA train derails or more accurately a split switch
Peace,
ANDEE
That's not a split switch.
A split switch happens when a train goes past a trailing point switch and the switch is set against that train.
This was more like a picked switch (not the fault of the T/O, as long as it's not a hand thrown switch).
It's a spring switch (if that's still in service). Not the first time they've had a problem there. A work train derailed there a few years ago.
-Hank
I guess that's a terminology issue. The TA calls a run-through
(trailing point against you) a split switch. What happened to
the SIRT train is called a split switch on many railways. Picking
a switch means either a wheel fails to be steered by the closed
switch point, because it is open, or that the flange strikes the
open switch point, or both. The result can be a split switch,
or a derailment, or the truck can go up in the air and come back
down on the rails. Often a run-through will bend up the head rods
and lead to a condition where the switch circuit controller thinks
the switch is closed but it actually isn't, leading to a picking
problem on the next facing point move.
A picked switch - is usually the fault of the switch points being worn or the lock and control bars being loose permitting the switch points to move under the train. This is not an operator problem - this is a track problem.
Could today's heat have been a contribution?
It could have been. It wouldn't be out of the question. It is rare but if the switch is moved in HIGH heat conditions, the switch will not lock up to the new position sometimes. It usually happens to old, worn switches. I was at Jamaica yard and the switches for a move were not locking up. I had to come down with bottled water and pour it over the switch points in order to cool the switch down and to fully lock up to its new position. It hissed and actually made a cracking sound also but it worked. Took 45 minutes to get a train from the portal to the barn.
Looks like the lower right hand corner of that R44SI took quite a mash where it hit the platform.
Anybody got the unit number?
wayne
Car # was 417
Thanks! I will make a note of that in my numbers book; looks like that one's going to need a visit to the Body Doctors. What does SIR do if a car needs body work? Ship it to CI? This is the first R44SI that I can remember that was involved in an accident (please advise if I have forgotten any).
Back in the days of the ME-1 (the pseudo-BMT Standard cars) they lost a couple of dozen to fire and two to collision - they didn't bother to fix them, just scrapped them outright.
wayne
Depends on how much work it needs. If it's just damage to the sheetmetal and end bonnet, the work can be done in-house. If there's frame damage, the car goes to CI for evaluation.
Last car to make the trip was 435 (fire damage to the interior)
-Hank
Remember those two Triplex trains that got into that memorable fracas in 1955? They didn't bother fixing the sections that got mangled and essentially scrapped the equivalent of one unit.
Here's the story in wednesday's Daily News.
Yesterday around 3:50pm, I boarded a northbound #5 train at 125 street and at the railfan window, a man was videotaping the ride through the window. If indeed it was a fellow subtalker, who are you?
on a redbird ?
Why didn't you ask him personally?
Videocameras pick up background audio, per say?
Guilty as charged! It was me. I decided to get out of the heat and ride (and videotape) the #4 from Woodlawn to Utica Ave, then on the return trip I boarded the #5 and videotaped that from 125th to Dyre Ave. Funny, but I remember turning around and seeing you get on. (Of course, I don't know you, but I remember someone getting on dressed in an MTA uniform).
Next time, come up and say hi! You may even get your chance today (Wednesday) as I plan to make a return trip .....
--Mark
>I boarded the #5 and videotaped that from 125th to Dyre Ave.
Sir Marcus, you missed out on boarding at Wall St.
and taking it north to East 180 (as I did one dandy
spring day)... It's a must see if you have not yet
gotten the Bklyn Bridge-Union Square-GCT-59-86-125st
trot on a VHS..
Nope ... I recorded the Lexington Ave dash going downtown, because I already have it uptown at the front of a Lo-V :)
--Mark
It would be so nice to have those Lo-Vs come out again !
If the Transit Museum had D-Types, Lo-Vs, Standards, and arch-roofs (I would make up a train from divisions A & B, so not just Red Birds) available to them they would be sure to get a lot of repeat customers on their trips.
Mr t__:^)
This is from my trip to Baltimore yesterday.
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
its true
Um....................hate to burst your bubble, but what do the three letters on the front of that light rail train say???
New York MTA, NOT Baltimore MTA Ditz!!!!!!
Ugh!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
DITZ?!?!?!?!?!
Thanks for the compliment! I've been called worse.
The total name is Mass Transit Administration (MTA) of Maryland. You can see its website at www.mtamaryland.com
Chaohwa
Trevor I am going to send you some shots of the Los Angeles Blue Line.... identical type light rail cars here !!
also on the green line as well !! thanks SWA SalaamAllah..
'Fraid not, SallamAllah. Our LRV's were built by ABB Traction and AdTranz at Elmira, NY. The Blue Line LRV's were built in Japan.
>>> Our LRV's were built by ABB Traction and AdTranz at Elmira, NY. The Blue Line LRV's were built in Japan <<<
And other than the general shape they don't even look similar.
Tom
Love the gingerbread on the station house.
Nice photos, T... want to work on the Baltimore light rail guide?
(Actually my brother lives in Charm City but he's not much of a railfan)
Would Love To!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Gotta Say... You take great pictures.
: ) Elias
Thank You!
-Trevor
Watch the Closing Doors.....
Oh Boy.... Could just imagine all oft accidents and lawsuits these things might generate in the big apple. I mean, gee.... people can't even enter a simple platform level doorway without being dragged six thousand feet. gee..... hat happens if you step in front of one of these suckers, or may hap try to cut across the tracks to the other side.
Well, anyway, they do look good, and thre really is a place for such equipment in NYC.
First we ban all of the cars and then run these over the Brooklyn Bridge into the Chambers Street Terminal....
Heck.... we could cancel the last 100 years!
: )
Elias
Not so fast. They don't call them "light rail vehicles" because of their weight. On the contrary, those puppies weigh as much as a B division subway car, over 40 tons.
I like those pixel signs. Our LRVs in Denver have good old roller curtains.
>We'll Never See This @ The MTA......
Ehh..Let's have a looksie... they have our
r21/22 blue stripe paint scheme... and their
cars resemble those whatchamacallits with the
'accordion' flexy in the middle' buses now
on the 9 route...
WINS reports the SIR derailed all service suspended.
More to follow.
(SIR runs modified R44's)
Details are limited scheduled service to/from Oakwood and St. George, bustitution from Oakwood to Eltingville, single-track running from Eltingville to Huguenot, normal (but off-schedule) service to Tottenville.
-Hank
As I was standing and observing for an hour the AM rush hour trains stopping and passing by Metuchen between 7 and 8 AM last Friday, I noticed some horrifying scenes.
THREE NJT Arrow III cars had graffiti about 3 feet in length, which started from the bottom of the cover of the undercarriage to about halfway up to the windows. I only recall one of the graffiti-stricken car, which was #1496. I've noticed that the other two graffiti marks were of the same description, but with different interior colors, such as red, purple, etc.
!!! Does anyone know which yard the NJT trains are stored for usage during AM rush hour and how the 'bums' take out their spray paints and just cover these as they wish???
....A resolution...
Railfan Pete.
Sunnyside, MMC and Jersey Avenue Yards!
Trevor Logan
Sunnyside, MMC and Jersey Avenue Yards
So I guess the 'bums' made their way into the Jersey Avenue yards and started doing their mess there. What and where is the MMC yard located?
I'm sure the Sunnyside Yard is well restricted to rail yard and railroad engineers only. I've seen it numerous times, being kept in well condition.
: )
Railfan Pete.
MMC is the Meadow Maintenance Complex in Kearny/Harrison, NJ. It's our MAIN Rail facility. I HIGHLY Doubt anyone got into the MMC for graffiti as we have very high security there! ONLY NJT employees are allowed on the property!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Not to waste a posting, but:
Thanks for the info. So I guess the Jersey Av. rail storage yard is the only one in question for the graffiti.
Railfan Pete.
No one tags trains in sunnyside, except for the freights on the NYA side. there are far too many workers, lights, etc. on the amtrak side. I ride by it every day and can't say i've ever seen it (except perhaps on work equipment left in darker parts of the yard)
it had to happen sooner or later. city 'writers' go to the burbs to hit freight trains now, and kids in the suburbs like to pretend to be tough and criminal by painting trains...
Saw the same thing last week. I actually rode in 1496.
The Jersey Avenue yard is a/k/a County Yard. Very easy access from the Park and Ride Lot. You can just walk in.
But there is a tower there, so it's not like the place is totally dead.
I got back around nine last night from a few days in Seattle. That is, the plane arrived at the American Airlines domestic terminal at Kennedy Airport at around nine. It then took 45 minutes just to get to my car in the long-term parking lot.
It is hard to exaggerate what a miserable experience it was. Start with waiting over 20 minutes in front of the terminal for the next parking shuttle bus. The roadway was absolute chaos, with cars, taxis, hotel vans, limousines, city buses and rental-car shuttles scooting in and out, horns blaring incessantly. Two PA cops and several traffic-control agents stood around doing nothing. Finally, a completely jammed parking shuttle bus arrived. People swarmed the door, with a traffic agent finally aroused from his topor to say "Better try to squeeze on, dunno if there'll be another bus anytime soon." A couple of people tried to ask the shuttle driver if he indeed was going to long-term parking, apparently not trusting the sign on the bus, but the driver's English was so poor it was impossible to understand him.
I finally jammed aboard the stinking hot bus, which was just as crowded as a Lexington Avenue express at rush hour (plus with plenty of luggage onboard). It stopped at three more terminals before getting to the parking lot. Chaos ensued at each stop as people and their luggage fought their way off as other people swarmed on. The driver kept turning to yell at people, though his almost complete lack of English, combined with my lack of Urdu or Hindi or whatever, prevented me from knowing what he was saying. He drove like a schmuck too, taking corners way too fast and slamming on the brakes at each stop. Finally, almost an hour after my plane landed, I got off the bus at long-term parking; I was thankful that I had parked near the first stop.
What made this whole ordeal truly excruciating was the sight of the Airtrain tracks looming above me much of the way. I would have sold my soul to have been able to take a quick, pleasant Airtrain ride out to the lot. Please, Port Authority, finish it fast!!!
The guideway to Jamaica Station is just about finished. That just leaves the tracks, power, signals -- and, oh yes, the station.
The need to finish the station is the reason why the branch to Howard Beach will open significantly sooner than the branch to Jamaica.
has the #3 started running ton 180st yet in the am
The #3 is going to be running to E180th in the Bronx?
I didn't know this was happening.
The #3 is not supposed to run TO E. 180th Street. A few trainsets are supposed to run FROM E. 180th Street (having been put-ins from E. 180th Street Yard) in the morning on weekdays. An equal number of trainsets will discharge passengers at 96th Street at various times of the evening and run light to E. 180th Street Yard.
Unless it's been postponed by use of a "supplement" schedule, it went into effect this past Monday, August 6.
David
I was at Grand Concourse yesterday and I was told that 4 #3's will be stored at E180 why she didn't say
Because they got kicked out of 137st yard.
They did not get 'kicked out' of 137 St. It was felt by someone downtown that the service would be used more coming out of the Bronx.
How would the service be used more if trains are running light to 96th?
They did get "kicked out" since the 1 line has gotten the 40 cars from Pelham and needs the space to lay-up those 4 new trains. This information was given to me by the PM T/D after he got off the phone with the Supt.
Surely there's still more layup room at the 137th yard
after the (40 Pelham cars) have been tucked in...
There are 5 yard tracks which hold 20 cars each. 4 #3 trains were layed-up there along with 6 #1 trains, now that we have gotten the 40 cars from Pelham we need those 2 tracks that the 3 trains were layed-up on.
true
Yes, the 3's from 180St service has started on Monday.
what time
It's about time they put more 7th Avenue service on in the morning. Will it run as late as 8:45AM?
its only 4 trains its luck to get it
The four #3 weekday put-ins at E. 180th Street leave E. 180th Street at 5:45, 6:07+, 6:26+, and 6:40+ AM (+ means half-minute). The four 96th Street dropouts leave 96th Street light at 11:36+ PM, 11:48+ PM, 12:00+ AM, and 12:12+ AM. Those are the last four #3 trains of the day.
David
Greetings all,
I've just completed my course's at NYU for AutoCad2000i and have decided to try my drawing skills on creating a subway car in 3D, if possible.
Would anybody know where I can find or purchase the exact spec's and/or measurements for i.e. R33/R36 Redbird. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Paul
I have a book that gives EXACT Specs of most subway cars. Contact me by E-Mail if you want to know more
Anthony
Thanks, I sent you a email.
Paul
mine is the white plains rd line and the west end line what about you
Mine is the Woodlan and Dyre lines
drye is nice to and woodlawn is aight
Come on Mr. X, you cannot be asking that question of me, Jeff, Q, and others. Our feelings have been made abundantly clear.
Next stop on the #4 Sea Beach, Stillwell Avenue and Coney Island. Ooops, I was momentarily transported back to 1953. Pardons.
The GG local to Ditmas Avenue.
3rd Avenue El (Bronx section).
Oh, I'm sorry, I guess you meant what is in operation now. Then I would have to say the Pelham Bay line.
Mines is the Lexinton Avenue Express 4 line. Go 4 line, go 4 line...
okay
Flushing IRT, aka the (7).
:-) Andrew
I would have to say my favorite subway line of all time would have to be the F train. I like the R46's alot, and its basic route i like it. Whats funny is altho its an hour and a half, it goes so fast. Not to mention i know a Motorman on the F who i ride around with. Not to mention i have seen alot on the F line
on the B division i like the F. A Divsion lets go 2 train!!!
i love the #2 and on the b divison it woul be the a and the G
i love the #2 and on the b divison it woul be the a and the G
The G? That's an unusual choice, to say the least.
Same here. F and the 2
My favorite is the L on the IND/BMT and on the IRT i like the 6 the best.
Mine is the U train, or perhaps the X train.
""Mine is the U train, or perhaps the X train.""
Actually, mine is the Victory/Bradley/Forest Hill/Staten Island Mall line from Chris Rivera's 2nd avenue subway plan. :)
Though thinking about it, is the cross-harbor tunnel really necesary? Why not make a "super express" under 4th Ave in Brooklyn and tunnel under the Narrows?
you need a "submarine" at the foot of manhattan to Staten island..
that'll be the U Train/Boat.. ;-)))
That's perfect!!!
I still prefer my idea.
There's been talk of replacing the Gowanus Expressway with a tunnelled highway. While digging, leave room for a two-track subway line with no stations.
A line to Staten Island could then run via the F express tracks to just past Smith-9th, swooping down from there into the new tunnel. Near 59th Street, the line would shift over to 4th Avenue, with expres tracks added. After stopping at 86th (the first stop after Bergen lower), it would continue through a new tunnel to SI.
Mine is definitely NOT the #7. The #7 redbirds have awful air-conditioning. Riding the line in this H.H.H. season is extremely unbearable. There is definitely the smell of filthy armpit odor in the air. The poles and metal bars I grab onto becomes all sticky. Add that to people holding/blocking the doors at Queensboro Plaza asking whether the train is local or express, even right after *clear* announcements doesn't help either (particularly those who asked *IN ENGLISH*, so that answers the question whether they understand english).
Get this, I have to wear shorts to/from work, and that's still unbearable. (I change to formal wear once I get to my office.) My point is, the trains that the #7 has doesn't have decent A/C.
Self explanatory
#7 "A" train 2 express underground
The A, especially when the R-10s ruled supreme on it.
A express to 207th St. 125th St. will be the next stop. Step in and watch the closing doors. Enjoo-oooooooooy the ride.
Aren't you glad us D train guys shared our run with you guys? :)
Frankly, I always thought the A and D went well together. On that stretch, anyway. Between the thundering R-10s and howling R-1/9s, the bases were covered.
Heh. We've gotta stop meeting like this. The number one train is growing suspicious of us. :)
LOL
My handle speaks for itself ;-)
Brighton Line, Baby! Especially since the BMT has reclaimed it from the clutches of the leech-like IND!
Mine is the F ( duh !) and the 6 .
I wasn't sure how to title this thread but what I am after is your opinions as to what section of the subway is the best In terms of things like: Views, speed, stretch of track etc.
I nominate:
1) The A train between Aqueduct and the Rockaways. It has great views of Jamaica Bay and the Wildlife preserve (and JFK Airport). It also has the longest stretch of track between stations and if you get a good train it can really fly.
2) The F or G train in the area of Smith-9th St. That view of Manhattan is one of the nicest I have seen and it is the most photographed.
Any others?
I would nominate
1.The A from JFK to Broad channel because of it's view.
2.The 6 City hall loop.I consider it to be the crowned Jewel of the subway(Plus it took 50 years for it to start to decay).
The express Q between Newkirk and Kings highway. It runs through midwood wich is a pretty nice nieghborhood.
The express Q between Newkirk and Kings highway. It runs through midwood wich is a pretty nice nieghborhood.
Plus the slant R-40s are still holding down the fort.
As a railfan, I love the M train all the way to Delancey street.
But as a passenger who now uses the subway to get from point A to point B, THERE IS NOTHING NICE ABOUT THE NYC SUBWAY.
The N b/t 59th St and Pacific and the 2 b/t Chambers and 96th St. Nice fast express runs with Railfan Window Enabled trains.
broadway jucnction and eastern parkway, hands down!
For the View. I give two because they (In my opinion) are good. 1st: The 'J' train going up the Williamsburgh Bridge from Brooklyn. Just looking out the front window at night gives me chills. 2nd: Watching Coney Island bound 'F' trains make the turn to Smith 9th Street with Lower Manhattan as a background.
For the Speed (This is tough) 1st: 2/3 trains Northbound from 42nd St Times Square to 72nd St. I havent been up there in a while but DAMN do those things fly. 2nd: East River Tunnel for the A/C lines. I get so scared sometimes, it feels as if the train is going to go off the tracks as it comes in at the turn before 'Broadway Nassau"
-Last week I said I ws going to do an update on the 3 most Notorius abandoned stations.
In 1974 the Culver shuttle service from 9th avenue to Ditmas avenue was discontinued, replaced by the B35.In 1993 The last pitures of the 9th avenue lower level was tooken.On August 1 2001 the first person to walk through it's remains in 8 years(Who doesn't work for the MTA) took notes on it's remain.That person was me.
The 9th avenue lower level platform is still in use.Just not for revenue service.All three tracks are live and are used for the layup of garbage trains(occasionally to layup trains in snowstorms).The steps to the lower level are very creaky and dirty.The walls are grafiti and mold covered and the celing is mildew covered.If you stood down there long enough the platform would slightly rattle from moving trains.Some equipment covers the dirty floor.I you walk on the tracks you would need a flashlight due to some removed lighting.Upon entrance it's dangerously dark(by the way there are some lights on the platform but it's still dark).
Next week I'm going to visit the Crown Jewel of The Subway.City hall(IRT).
Following week:I'm going to see if there really is a Nevins street lower level.
Keep trespassing and you'll be 'tooken' to jail.
-Hank
I got special permission from the MTA
Ever thought of organizing a tour for a group of us?
Really? Wow! I'm sure other SubTalkers would be interested in getting permission to take pictures in otherwise-off-limits areas of the system.
Who should we contact at the MTA?
David
and just how did you get this 'special permission'?
A metrocard doesn't qualify as permission :)
HAHA lol... sure it does... but u need one of those unlimited thongys though... seriously though... I'd like "special permission" to see hidden things of the NYC subway... but not in this heat though
Did you have WRITTEN permission?
Why is everyone so hyped up about how I got permission.If you wanted to know I said I was part of a website aight!
Why is everyone so hyped up about how I got permission.If you wanted to know I said I was part of a website aight!
I find that a little hard to believe. From what I've heard, it's very difficult indeed to get permission to access non-public areas of the system.
Difficult if not impossible. I had trouble getting into a semi-public area to cover a story, and I've got credentials from the NYPD.
-Hank
I had trouble getting into a semi-public area to cover a story, and I've got credentials from the NYPD.
What's a "semi-public" area?
You can see it, but to get close you need to be accompanied or admitted for a specific reason. I got up close and personal with those relics rotting behind the Costco in Sunset Park. All I needed was to present my authorization letter from NYCT and press credential to the guard, haggle a bit over how no matter what I do, he's not responsible for my safety (right there where it says 'hold harmless and imdemnify', sir, it means I can't sue ANYONE) and it's OK.
-Hank
Oh, found out the hard way that it's actually illegal to photograph secure federal facilities without prior authorization, such as a press credential, which I did not have at the time I tried to photograph the Brooklyn MCF. Their waiting room is quite nice; but I don't wish for a return visit. Incidently, the watercooler topic became 'No wonder they picked you up, you LOOK like a terrorist!' based on an unshaven photo of me in the staff index.
-Hank
I think it's because other people would like permission also.
I too find this hard to believe. Everyone and their grandparents has websites, so that excuse doesn't go far. I have several...
WHO DID YOU TALK TO AT THE TA is the real question. just a random worker in the area, or did you call someone, somewhere, and get some sort of serious authorization??
I'm doing a bit of a freelance gig that involves getting photos in such places, thus i'd natuarlly like to know who to chat with outside of random workers that might be entering an area i'd like to get shots of...
I'm doing a bit of a freelance gig that involves getting photos in such places, thus i'd natuarlly like to know who to chat with outside of random workers that might be entering an area i'd like to get shots of...
Joe,
I suspect our differently-literate colleague here just found the stairway and bopped down on his own, or maybe a trackworker or other TA person escorted him down or just opened the gate. I find it extremely unlikely that he got official TA permission (I'd bet him a copy of my book, in fact, if he can prove me wrong, with verifiable documentation to back it up).
As I indicated in another thread, getting the official OK to visit these lost treasures is akin to finding the Ark of the Covenant--and our Mr X doesn't strike me as the next Indiana Jones.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Hehe! I hear that...
...it's just plain sad though...
ah well... maybe someday they'll give tours of such places again, if they don't remove or remodel the locations before then. It's absolutely dizzying how this city paves over it's own history...
bring a mask. It's mega stinky of beer and urine (more acurately urinated beer) at least the parts of the platform near the staircase it also has that something died smell. They were installing new signals down there a few months ago so maybe someone passed a hose and some ammonia.
Bah. beer and pee ain't bad. years ago i worked at a research lab with 50 rats per room, and not enough ac - in the summer. them suckers have nothing better to do but pee and poop.
pigeon-piles are still worse though. few tunnels i've been in smell as bad as an abandoned building inhabited by pigeons. except of course the spots on active platforms where the train waits for the trash train... eck.
remember the pigeon pile o' fun outside the abandoned courthouse? heh, that was fun.
who cares if he is lying about legality, he is doing what we do anyways (joe), and I fully support him.
I know that it is sometimes not too difficult to pursuade a TA worker in the area to allow you to see an ordinarily-closed area of the system - about two or three years ago, I saw a worker coming up form the South Ferry inner loop platform, and asked him if I could take a look at it; not only did he let, but he took me down & showed me around. I'm not sure if it was technically allowed, but I guess I looked fairly harmless.
subfan
Probably just walked in and down to the portal. They leave the gate open most of the time. TA is asking for trouble.
speaking of which, how about a re-visit to 91st, its been a while, I want to see whether my pieces are still there, Im ready with my new Camera, so is playland with his, i would imagine.
91? gimme a G/O detour, then i'll consider it.
You missed last nights trip to the high line. we got good photos, me thinks. someone has their own little garden up there, oddly enough.
Lots of toppled billboards. the BLF would be proud...
bah, its just a short electrified walk, high line? tell me more?
The high line - the old freight tracks on the west side, paralleling 11th av. It's a great little walk, with only 1 slightly hoboriffic location to navigate.
Thats an awfully low hobo factor. BTW, Was that built before or after the West Side improvement that granded us the Freedom Tunnel?
Begun c1929. Completed 1934.
Seth
1) The Culver Shuttle ceased service in May of 1975, not 1974.
2) The B35 Bus did not 'replace' service, it was offered as a free transfer. The B35 was in operation for many years before the demise of service.
3) You are not the first non-TA person to walk that tunnel in the past 8 years. I rode many scrap metal trains from the now Jackie Gleason depot tracks to the Murphy interlockings, to 9th Avenue LL. Yours truly has been there many times before AND after 1993. I was reared less than 3 blocks from there, and also kept pieces of the Culver demolition in the early 1980s.
Anyone privy to the community's reaction to the closure? Did they want it closed? Did they protest? Did they care?
There is a lower level to Nevins Street Station, and you can see evidence of it on the Broklyn bound platform of the line. there is a stairway leading down from the platform to an underpass to the Manhattan bound platform, and the lower level platform can be seen there. The trackway is very small, and I believe that much of the area is used for storage of materials, but I could be wrong.
As Doc said, it's visible from the walkway that connects the Brooklyn-bound to the Manhattan-bound side. The walkway bisects the single platform/trackway at platform height; there are doors on either side of the walkway that lead to the platform. When I was last there a couple of louvers were bent out of the way on the right-hand door (walking from the Brooklyn-bound side to the Manhattan-bound side) and I was able to get a fairly good view. There is only one platform/trackway on the lower level; it was never used.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Any details we can't glean from somewhere else (like this site)?
Seth
They also used the 9th Ave. lower level in the original Crocodile Dundee movie. Tried to pass it off as 59th St. Columbus Circle on the IND. Wonder why they didn't use Hoyt-Schermerhorn (they actually did in Dundee 2; it was undisguised).
Don;t listen to these old conservative, non adventurous fools, its all part of the adventure, Look for my tag on the Old booth on the platform at City Hall, its AAAAAAALLLLL good, Also might I suggest 91st west side IRT, Im sure you dont mind a little track walking, if you want to visit the other side, you must go back to 96st and cross there becausse no wayto cross over to the other side at 91st, also 18th street on the 4/5/6, its kind of smaller but still worthwhile Enjoy, also if by anychance you might want to join RWS expeditions, please e-mail me. Good luck!!!
When one purchases an unlimited-ride card through an MVM when does the clock start? Is it the time of issue or when first swiped for passage or even when first swiped through a balance-reader?
I've always used stored-value cards.
Thanks.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
The clock starts when you first swipe it thru the turnstile.
The clock starts when you first swipe it thru the turnstile.
I knew that's how it worked with a Fun Pass wrapped in plastic, bought at a convenience store; I just wasn't sure that the MVM-issued cards were set up the same way. Thanks--I'm buying a few next time I'm in the system.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Now if they could find a way to let you buy more than one at a time....
All it takes is a change in the software. They probably figured no one would want to buy two at a time.
Duh, if you're spending a day in the city or if you're a tourist, you are probably with someone who probably would also like to have a FunPass. I once got two of them from the same MVM with the same Discover card. This caused Discover to put the second transaction up for investigation as a duplicate. Last time I bought two I used different MVMs.
My experience using MVMs with AMEX and Mastercard is that the MVMs let you get two cards, then refuse. The refusal is for any machine in the same local area network... but if you go to another location you're OK and can get two more. (By the way, when the MVMs originally came out, the limit was four.)
I just go to a nearby newsstand and buy as many as I need. Each one comes wrapped in plastic, so I don't accidentally use two in the same day.
That's fine, but some of us like to charge everything.
I just go to a nearby newsstand and buy as many as I need. Each one comes wrapped in plastic, so I don't accidentally use two in the same day.
I just wish I could buy multiple Fun Passes from the machine. When I am in town I'll take 4 or more trips a day. But I travel frequently, so the monthly unlimited and even the weekly unlimited usually don't make sense for me. What makes the most economic sense for me is to have a stash of fun passes in my wallet, but buying more than one from an MVM is just a nuisance. I don't expect them to make a change on my behalf, I imagine they were reluctant to sell the Fun Passes from the MVM's at all.
CG
If you know that you are going to need a few of them in advance you could order them from CitySearch.
That's what I've been doing lately, but the last time I tried it wouldn't accept my credit card number. I emailed customer service and, about a week later, got this response: "I am sorry but I acnnot help you please contact customer service." By that point I had already taken my business elsewhere, namely my friendly neighborhood MVM.
Has anyone else had recent problems at CitySearch?
Actually, I had a problem last time I tried, also, but I thought it may have had something to do with me having WebTV. First I got a message that my password has expired, and I would be e-mailed a new one, but it never came. So I tried to re-register with a different user name and actually got to the final order page. It listed "monthly" in the frequency column, and instead of risking them sending me five FunPasses a month, I killed the order. And, so, it was back to the MVM.
I guess that leaves the Transit Museum in GCT or the Visitor Center in Times Sq.
There might be a limit on Fun passes because characters have been selling "swipes" of Metrocards to people to get into the subway for a dollar a swipe. A clown could make some pretty good money on a $40.00 outlay for 10 funpasses, and if he picks the right station,
recoup his outlay in about an hour, then the rest of the day make a profit. I believe that there is a limit on how many cards you can get in an attempt to counteract this problem, but a crafty clown will find a way to get around any hurdle.
It is activated on the first swipe through a turnstyle.
Or first dip into bus farebox.
As a Station Agent let me answer:
The clock starts on the card once you swipe at the turnstile. You can buy the card from the vending machine and use it six months later, and you's still have a full 7-Day Card. Those cards expire on the 7th Day at Midnight. If you use it now at the Turnstile, it's your 1st Day. 6 Days left. It would then expire Monday night at 12 Midnight.
Day Passes are peculiar. You can get 27 hours out of the card if you purchase them at a certain time. If I purchase one now, it will only be good until 3AM this morning. The cars only carry from one day to the next. You're best bet would be to start using the card after midnight, then it will expire 27 hours later on the next day at 3 in the morning.
-Stef
Ok, if I understand day passes, they expire on the next calendar day at 3 AM.
If I buy it on Monday at 11:59 PM, it expires Tuesday 3 AM.
If I buy it on Tuesday at 12:01 AM, it expires Wednesday 3 AM.
Right?
No, the time starts when you first use it, not when you buy it. Then it expires at 3am the day after you first use it.
I meant to say use, oops.
Right! That's why it pays to use the card after midnight.
-Stef
It does not matter when you buy the fun pass or an unlimited card. What matters is when you activate the card by using it for the first time.
Stef is correct- a day starts at midnight. If you activate)swipe) ay 1159pm you lose a day at 1200 midnight.
If you want the gist of using ANY type of MetroCard: visit the MTA's website at:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/mcgtreng.htm
: )
Railfan Pete.
Anyone else like to use an unlimited Metrocard to make transfers that aren't there? I've used it between Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza, 21-Queensbridge and Queens Plaza (long walk, BTW) between Court Square and Courthouse Square, Lefferts Blvd/Liberty Ave and Union Tpke/Queens Blvd (with the Q10 bus, but that wouldn't have meant a free transfer back to the subway if it wasn't an unlimted card), and Court St on the N/R to Jay St. on the A.
Anyone like to engage in this silly passtime? (In some cases, I did have an erand to run in mid-"transfer".
:-) Andrew
Of course. You are free to make transfers that "don't exist" because you have an unlimited (HINT) MetroCard to fulfill your unlimited trips for a period of 7-days or 30-days.
Have fun!
Railfan Pete.
Ive done the Lawrence St (N, R Lines) walk-a-block-to-the-A-transfer countless times. IT SAVES SO MUCH TIME.
Also (Before the Manhattan Bridge Flip) from Grand St (B,D,Q,) to the Bowery On the J,M,Z lines. I know have done a few more. But I cant think its too hot lol
Railfanning last January, took a coffee break and got some to go for a buddy without an unlimited. This was at Chamber St. terminal when the first "E"s were going via 6th ave and he 63rd st. tunnel.
avid
I liked it when the E trains went via 6th Av. and then through the 63rd St. tunnel.
But the thing is, I like it when an R46 E train pulls up, and I have less interest in the R32's through the 63 St. Tunnel...
: )
Railfan Pete.
I've found the "transfer" between 21st St. on the G and Hunter's Point Ave. on the 7 to be actually quite useful...
More fun--ever enter the subway just to cross the street--right through the turnstiles? HOw about entering through fare control just to buy a magazine?
All 100% free, and perfectly legal with an Unlimited Metrocard.
:-) Andrew
They're also good for using underpasses that aren't there.
My Personal favorite, and one I use at least 2x a day. Is from the A or 1 at 59 street walk one avenue and 2 blocks to the N/R/W at 57 & 7 to get to my office at 59 & Lex. It saves me from going to 42 for the transfer to the Broadway line to the east side. And it allows me to get the A for the run down from 168 as if I took the A to 42 I'd have to made the long walk back to the Broadway lines from 42/8. So with out the unlimited card I'd most likely have to take the 1 all the way from 238 to 42.
im going withh the #6 r29,r36 andr62 last but not least beloves r142a
R36 are no more on the 6, so that ties it with the N...
6:
R29, R62A, R142A
N:
R32, R40 Slants, R68
Actually, the #6 line has R-29s, R-33s (traded with the #5 line for R-62As for OPTO Dyre Avenue Shuttle service -- they're maintained at the #5 line's E. 180th Street Shop), R-62As, and R-142As, making this the most varied fleet in in the IRT.
The N line officially has R-32s, R-40s, and R-68s, but occasionally a train of R-68As (or even a hybrid R-68/R-68A train) will sneak in.
David
I'm giving that title to the Q,W,4,5 and 6
why the 4 because only have r33 and r62
The 4 has a large Quanity of those cars.
My Favorite is car 5656 on the E,F,G and R. Why? I like the R46s and if u wanna know why i like that one specifically, u can instant message me at E JAMAICA CENTER, A 8AV FULTON EXP, OR F TRAIN 5656. THIS IS ON AOL INSTANT MESSENGER.
HAVE A BEAUTIFUL DAY
That's an odd question. Why in the world would someone like any one car number over another?
But actually I did have a favorite car number, 6083 (Triplex). I have no idea why it appealed to me.
Sigmund Freud, where are you when we need you?
I like 9306 since it represents the first of the World's Fair cars delivered in 1963 and represented a radical departure in livery for subways cars at that time.
Glad to see that it is retired at the NYTM. Hopefully the # will not be given out to another car. Sort of like retiring a uniform number in sports
I suppose if a car had a unique attribute, like say R-10 prototype 1575 or the first series of air conditioned cars 4140-4149, there could be a specific reason -- I know I liked 4350-4449 of the Slant 40 series way better than 4150-4349 back before GOH, for example -- or if something happened on a certain car that earned it a spot place in your memories that would be a reason for having a favorite car number.
R-142A #7220 BABY!
My AOL Screen Name is: No 7220 On The 6
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I have a few Favorites and I tell you why I like that Car #.
R-142A Car #7235. My first time on a R-142A.
R-142 Car #6311. My first time on a R-142.
R-40S Car #4300. Been on it 8 Times. 1 Time on (B),and the rest of the time on the (N). And also have SUPER GOOD A/C ALSO!
R-30 Car #8501. First Subway Car I EVER BEEN ON when I was born back in 1988. Got on it about a FEW WEEKS after I was born. I think it was on the (E) I got that one.
My favorite would be R33-9327 on the #7. I rode that car to the World Series last year. So if anyone sees that car, you will see why I like that car.
you can rememberwhat your first car was?
mine was a slope R40 or a R30 on the ,,(c) line
THE B TRAIN SHOULD RUN ON WEEKENDS
No... it's ok... the B wont be missed THAT much...
I already had an e-mail address with them:
R-62A #1982
R-46 #5600
R-46 #5705
Ive been on EVERY R-40, R-40M and R-42. My favorite is R-4O #4444. I guess it looks cool lol. I know Ive seen a #1701 out there (IRT I think). 1701 is a cool # if you like Sci-fi (HINT HINT) :)
Anthony
Do you remember the "Brake Test" numbers of the R40M when they were first delivered: numbers like "AS19" "CB22" etc.
Slants that bit the dust early in their lives are: 4200-4201 and 4420-4421. Post-GOH Slant losses include: 4259, 4260, 4427 and 4428.
4259's sitting in CI yard awaiting her new nose and bonnet. Her mate will be a new 4260, which is the main carbody of R40M 4461 with the nose of the original 4260.
wayne
I like #4246, #4332, #4412, #4522.
Also: #1437.
Also: the numbers in the song "In the Year 2525" by Zager & Evans:
2525 (R68), 3535 (R32), 4545 (R40M), 5555 (R46), 6565 (R142), 7510 (R142A), 8510 (R30), 9595 (R36WF).
wayne
#3812 (r32). it was my first front window ride, on the RR, early 1980s sometime. don't know HOW i remember it. also #1717, #3578, #3579, #9574. they're "lucky" numbers i suppose. r32's in general are lucky. i rode them all through the 1980s on the astoria line, up until december '89 when the last of them went thru the GOH. they were much better looking cars w/ the blue-painted doors and the original front end display. if i remember right, the last train of "originals" i saw on the N in dec.89 was 3827-6 / 3824-5 / 3920-1 / 3570-1 / 3883-2. they were really on their last legs. i rode front window in 3827, which was packed to the gills, almost none of the overhead lights were working, and at ditmars blvd you could see a long string of r68s and GOH 32's behind it. i just can't get as excited about the GOH 32's, sorry....
Yes, but at least the GOH'd R32s have air conditioning.
But I do have to agree with you about the blue doors (why can't they paint the door exteriors blue?) and those godawful flipdot signs; you can't tell what letter it is if it's round (C? G? Q? O?). I swear I saw an "O" once, it was in 1997 and it was on the "Q" at the time (this was before the Slants took hold there). Yes, it probably was a "Q" but the tail was not too distinct, if it was there at all.
I wonder if they got 3900-3901's A/C working (this belongs to Jamaica-Yard).
wayne
I'm 98% certain I saw an O at Hoyt-Schermerhorn a few months ago.
Hey, Wayne, what about 1233 and 3080? Oops, those are Hall of Speed car numbers.
I won't ask about 1277.:-)
Gee, that's a touugh one :·)
I like 3730 simply because it's the first subway car I ever rode into Manhattan alone on. At 42nd I switched to an A, 14th I switched back to the E and ended up in the same car, W4th back to the A, at Canal I crossed over and thx to a delay the first Queensbound E to show up was the same one. Somehow I had positioned myself on the platform so the same car lined up with me. I still remember exactly which two light tubes were out, the exact seat I sat in (bench adjacent to #2 cab), and how cold the A/C was.
I also like NJT car 5135 (Comet II), it for a while was kindof their mascot. It was in Hoboken festival ads, part of the TVM screensaver, and could be seen in a slew of other places. It is also the first rail vehicle I ever rode, @ 2 months old. I got pissed off when it was transferred to MetroNorth and got its paint job massacred.
9595
7777
2449 (on the 1/9)
My Favorrite
R26/28: 7821- old type front window.
R29: 8660- Just Diffrent
R36: Was 9486 FAST!!!
R 62: 1611; Had that car for 2 trips.
R62A: 2440: Got turned twice with the same car.
R142: 6310: My first Bombardier
R 142A: 7386- Works great!
Cars I dis like
R 29: 8581: There was a fight in that car and it was my operating car.
R 36: 9521: The first train I had to take out of service
R 62A: 2320 Something always goes wrong when I get this car.
R 142: 7245; Was the car I got R142 Quilified in and the first car I had a computer problem down the road on.
My favorite cars are:
R32: married pair of 3444-3777. This is where I first met my wife.
R38: 4111 (though I love them all)
R46: 6120 (has a sour door tone BWEEEENG-BWOOONG)
R68: 2500
R68A: NONE WHATSOEVER
LIRR: 9181 (the number above the cab was one of those homemade jobs)
The Bweeeng Bwoong part wouldn't bother me as long as the chimes sound E and C, their normal pitches. I've heard some R-46 chimes that are anything but.
6688, can't wait until that number comes back in service >G<.
I'd want a pix of the car so I can put it next to the R17 on my desktop.
We're getting there, big guy. Last I saw, we were up to Car 6650. Slowly, but surely. Let's have a celebration at Branford! FYI, the new and improved 6688 will be a cabless B Unit in the middle of a 5 Car R-142 Train.
-Stef
When you get to 6762, you'll have a counterpart to that "mystery" R-17 at the beginning of Pelham 1-2-3 that I was able to identify on my DVD.
6762? I believe the car is still here, and is working under the guise of a motorless work car.
-Stef
Is that right? Tell everybody it's a Pelham 1-2-3 alumnus.
A few come to mind...
7750 - The lowest number of the current Redbirds
7773 - Redbird with R21 drop-sash storm door
6321 - That R16 in the New York Times article about train breakdowns
7801 - I have the number plate in my collection
There are more...
I have that very article about 6321's demise. Let me rephrase that: it was finally put out of its misery.
7750 is no longer in revenue service, if it hasn't been sunk already.
R36: 9346*, 9574, 9581, 9769
R32: 3348**
R68A: 5094
R7A/R62: 1575
*: I got this number as my 4-digit ID number in high school, and it stuck with me since (see my handle for an example.)
**: This one isn't the real number, but I like it better. The number plates are different from the other R32 cars. Also, I saw this car on an E train a couple of days ago. It was on a train entering Jamaica-Van Wyck as the train I was on was leaving there. I also have a picture of it at the Astoria Boulevard station on the N line.
My favorite is 3512. My first rememberance of that car was on the old Q Brighton express around 1965. I saw it as a south motor for practically that whole summer. It was the first 3500 series R32 car I ever saw in service, and the first Westinghouse controller R32 I ever saw as well. Another reason: 3512 was the last 4 digits of the phone number of my grandmother & grandfather. I believe it was among the first of the Phase I GOH R32's and it was involved in a very highly publicised dragging on the F line at Smith-9th St. shortly after it was returned from M/K. I operated 3512 many times during my stay on the E line.
I liked #4198 for years - and #2767 as honorable mention.
Wayne
I like #5556, #5557, #5558, AND #5559's the MOST. That's because they're R46 cars (I specifically like the R46's) AND COINCIDENTALLY, they are the SAME CAR NUMBERING FOR THE NEW COMET IV RAIL CARS OF NJT, ANOTHER SPECIALTY MODEL CAR I LIKE THE BEST IN NJT RAIL SERVICE.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I like #5556, #5557, #5558, AND #5559's the MOST.
By the way, I have seen these R46 cars on the E line to World Trade Center while riding it from Roosevelt Av. to 34 St. Penn Station several Sundays ago in the afternoon hours.
: )
Railfan Pete.
there are several R46s on the E during the weekday expecially during off hours. They borrow them from the R.
Car 1391.That subway car number saves my ass when I'm late for work
i like 1391 also because its been in alot of acidents
Poof! Boom!
Well, from my favorite fleet of cars the R-10's, which all operated on my favorite route the IND "A" line in the past, are these particular car numbers:
#3141 - The very first time I ever photographed an R-10 car, and it was this unit at Lefferts Boulevard in February 1973.
#2974 - A memorable "reunion" inside this car with a former and quite attractive Pace University female classmate in August 1987. This car was one of the eight units used on the ERA "Farewell" fantrip on Sunday, October 29, 1989.
#3194 - The first R-10 car I can personally say that I was able to either ride in or photograph at on these different IND routes on various occasions: "A", "CC" (later "C"), "GG" and the Rockaway Park shuttles from/to Broad Channel and/or Euclid Avenue.
#3231 - One of the four cars used on the first ERA fantrip on Saturday, October 23, 1976 that I had discovered that one of the northbound terminal side roll sign boxes had designations for "JAMAICA-169th ST." and "JAMAICA-PARSONS BLVD."
-William A. Padron
Don't tell me you started cranking away on that particular sign.:-)
Since 179th St. had not yet opened when the R-10s were delivered, it would make sense. I'm surprised those signs weren't taken out of that curtain.
1666.........my virgin run.
8522.........for being a kid at the window with no responsibilities.
What ever happened to him? Sigh.......
1666? R9? The one with the breaker panel from hell on the #2 end? (brzzzzzp!)
Sorry Selkirk, I keep forgetting. I'm a youngster (R62A.)
Hell ... that doesn't matter to me one bit ... what we've got here is the good old "ta" recycling car numbers ... causes confusion for the few, the proud, the retirees. :)
I mean SHEET ("gap sheet" to remain on topic and family friendly) ... that wonderful little 8x10 piece of paper that PROVED that it wasn't you at Newkirk at 16:14 northbound whose train snatched that purse and slapped a homeball with it. They didn't like such pieces of paper suddenly at Jay street when you could PROVE you were bumped by a QB. :)
But hell, the MONEY TRAIN (standard of excellence of most subtalkers) had five digits ... why can't the "newbies?" Hell, conductors went to five digits in my day on that thing on the cap ... snapped, pressed uniforms and dopey hats ... woohoo! That was the one thing I didn't miss was the "monkey suit" when I moved up front. Jeans, shirt, as long as it was pressed. You could wear your tin on your belt for all anybody cared then. Heh.
Hey, Kev, did you ever operate R-4 666? I would have carried a crucifix with me if I'd had to, or perhaps a rosary.:-)
I don't think so ... not on a lead. I would have remembered seeing that one. Heh.
The ones that I remember are R40s. 4284 because when I was really young, I was coming home late one day and the train was going REALLY fast through 4th ave (it was a B back then). I've been on it only 5 times though. Seen it more than that though. Now it's on the N line... YAY! My other favorite is 4177. When I was coming home from school, this one would be waiting for me at coney for about a week... then it left and I dunno where it is :(
Car 1956 comes to mind, if for no other reason than because I was born that year. I finally spotted it last fall on the 3.
July 29th Sunday NYTimes article talked about how the London Tubes were be to partially privatized, but this has been thrown into chaos with Robt. Kiley, various wings of the British government and everone else involved stirring the pot. The courts even had prevented information on who was buying from being public.
Anyone have any new info??? Who's supposed to buy it?? What the heck is going on??
Just curious.
Bob Kiley and Ken Livingston lost their case in court and they both have said that they will not appeal the ruling, so PPP appears to be on it's way to implementation. They won't be going anywhere anytime soon however. Stay tuned.
I have done some research into the cost of the 2nd Avenue Line and I found out that will be quiet expensive. But there were two huge Transportation Projects that will make the reasoning quite clear. For instance the Los Angeles Red Line, it can be seen as one of the most beautiful subway lines in the world, but very expensive. Past 10 billion dollars. For 15+ miles of tracks. Then the Big Dig Project which has used endless amounts billions of dollars and still spending. Who knows what the final cost will be for that project. So if these projects are that expensive then the cost for the second avenue line should be appropriate.
Looks like they've started tearing down the platform canopies in connection with the construction of the new Airtrain facility. They have also installed temporary lighting and loudspeaker poles on the platforms.
Thanks for the news and pictures. Hope you can keep us subtalkers updated from time to time. That is an important subject.
DOn't those canopies have some sort of historic protection? Is there anyone we can complain to about this?
DOn't those canopies have some sort of historic protection?
I'm not sure. Someone (whose name I can't recall) involved with the redesign of Jamaica Station told me that they are trying to preserve the historical elements of the station. Whether or not they will be actually using the old ironwork - I don't know. According to the PA, the redesigned Jamaica Station will look something like this:
Bob, the artist's concept of the finished Jamaica Terminal is based on the same architectural renderings for the new International Arrivals Building at JFK.
The idea is to have the new LIRR Terminal mimic JFK's "look" once the AirTrain is complete. Thus a 'mental connection' is made for the rail commuter between Jamaica and the airport.
BMTman
i rode today 6506-6515 today. anouncements and signs were way off. around w. farms sq., the train started acting up. it had acceleration problems jerking movements in acceleration and then blunt stops. the acting up stopped until the train started to leave pelham pkwy. then i got stuck in between pelham pkwy and allerton ave. for 30 minutes. 3 142's passed by on the m track. then it finally pulled in to the allerton ave. station where the trip terminated because of acceleration problems.
i boarded a downtown 142. 6340. running normal as it supposed to be. looked above the 3 door on the right side going downtown where the ads were, vandalism was noticec. someone took a lighter to the panel. it is skorched with blistered burn marks and soot. somebody tried to melt something, i assume the film over the ads. and caused damage to the finish. well atleast 15 of them are running and are cummin in fast.
reply if you want to.
the story would've been more interesting if a vandal tried to set the car on fire BECAUSE of the delay.
the story would've been more interesting if a vandal tried to set the car on fire BECAUSE of the delay.
If you have read carefully, the R142 #6340 was DIFFERENT from the 30 minute delay at Allerton Av. (#6340 was the one with the burn incident). Assimilate your thoughts when you read.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I hate that... the MTA gets new cars and there will always be vandals who will do things to it. NO subway car should be exposed to such treatment.
What's the answer? You can't have a cop riding in every car!
... but you can have one riding on every train going from car to car :)
NYPD/City of New York will not do that. It will cost a lot of money. Plus, as soon as the vandal sees the cop go to the next car, they'll do their damage and get off the train at the next stop. I suggest you wake up, smell the coffee, and get real! I've been a motorman for over 20 years and I've seen it all!
I agree with you, but when it all comes down to it. These people that vandalize these trains are just miserable, they have no respect for anyone or anything. I really dislike saying this or typing this, but things are never going to change as long as these people have access to our public transportation.
what thehell the r142 acting up
its just one set. it wasn't able to move. i think that the whole breaking ans acceleration system malfunctioned because the breaks wouldn't let go and it was making squeaking noises as it was trying to move. also, there was a lot of bucking when it was trying to move and on every crap out it did. it was so bad that sometimes the train would move backwards on that slope between allerton and pelham pkwy.
well i love my r142s but the ta needs to fix that
i luv them too. this just happens regardless new or old. i keep up with these machines every chance i get.
i ve been on the r142s since testing and in service ive been on it 12 times i cant stop.and what you said was true
>i luv them too. this just happens regardless new or old. i keep up with these machines every chance i get.
"luv". this is the last place i would see people shortening words.
the last place you would see people shortening words? look further partner.
I just hope no one lables that as an artist's attack,catch those idiots and hang em in plain sight :-)
The MTA spends so much money to buy state of the art equipment for the riding public and some douchebag wants to be the first to leave his mark. I hope someone catches him.
What are those nitwits doing trying to set the trains on fire. Don't they realize somebody can get hurt or even get killed. I hope if one of those nitwits get caught they should be duly punished.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
i hope they already did. i wonder if the burn marks on the panel is cleanable.
Maybe if you're lucky they can clean up the burn marks on the affected panel. If not they'll need to replace the panel.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
it is chared but not melted. i i think that some of it can be cleaned off and what ever is on the metal part can't you have to see 6340 to see what i mean.
they are being put in to replace the ones built in the early seventies. nice sleek slipery look when i one. makes the montreal metro cars look like schitt.
they are being put in to replace the ones built in the early seventies. nice sleek slipery look when i one. makes the montreal metro cars look like schitt. you know the builder already.
Yes, I know who built a lot of Montreal's cars: Vickers!
-Robert King
Does anybody here know if Vickers still exists in some shape or form?
-Robert King
According to "Tracks of the NYC subway" Utica Ave {I've never been there} is a local on top of local track and exp over exp making it a two-level station. How is the 4 relayed? The middle track starts on the Manhattan Side and works it's way up to the east side. Middle track means "M" track. The 4 clearly uses this track to change levels. But how is it done? Does the 4 run up to the exp track stub and then change levels to turn around? Does it go right to the M track and go outside to the end of that and then back in to the Manhattan bound side? Also, how come the exp can't go to New Lots and the lcl turn at Utica. Both the local and the express tracks have clear access to the M track for relaying. Please respond!!!
Seems like they could use 2 or M if needed. I've seen trains on M relaying.
Maybe the 3 goes farther south in Brooklyn, Because the 4 goes farther north, into the Bronx.....
Two theories, no details, -sorry!
According to "Tracks of the NYC subway" Utica Ave {I've never been there} is a local on top of local track and exp over exp making it a two-level station. How is the 4 relayed? The middle track starts on the Manhattan Side and works it's way up to the east side. Middle track means "M" track. The 4 clearly uses this track to change levels. But how is it done?
Well, why not take a ride out there and ask a T/O if he'd be nice enought to let you ride throught the relay. Many will let you if you ask nicely enough.
The procedure is typically thus: incoming 4-train on 2-track heading into Utica. Train is discharged then procedes past the station, crossing over to 1-track, then taking 3-yellows, crossing onto M-track at 514-ball (see P. 37 of the book). Conversely, a train could stay on 1-track right up to the portal (where there's a 10-car sign), then make the reverse move onto M-track at 524 ball. Either way, the train changes ends and procedes in the opposite direction on M-track, back towards Utica Av, or Northbound. M track descends to the lower level. Just before Utica Ave. you take typically bottom-green at 564-ball and cross from M-track onto 3-track for the return express trip.
If for some reason you have to run back local, you can take a yellow at 564 or right after the station and cross back onto the local side after leaving the station.
I will post a clearer image of the trackwork at Utica in version 3.0--I realize this is still clear-as-mud by looking at it.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
It's been awhile since I was at Utica doing relays, but I do know that a #4 train never makes it onto 1 Track.
Train enters on 2 Track, dumps and discharges (Utica relay is non-revenue trackage - do not ask to ride it, the answer is NO). Relay TO on south end charges and leaves the station with a bottom green. at the next homeball, he will either get a bottom green and stay on 2 Track to the block, or get a bottom yellow and crossover to M Track and go to the 10 Car Reverse marker (just inside the portal) and dump. Relay TO on north end charges and in former case gets a bottom yellow to cross onto M, goes down and gets a bottom green onto 3 Track; in the latter case, he gets a bottom green to stay on M Ttrack, goes down and gets a bottom green. A bottom yellow at the lower end of the ramp puts you onto 4 Track.
Ack. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I *did* ride through there a couple of years ago and the double-crossover south of Utica was out-of-service so we had to use 1-track for relay. Now that you mentioned it, I remember the T/O at the time telling me that what we were doing was not the usual way of relaying. I just never thought any more about it. Sorry for the confusion.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Your right the 4 is a 2leveled terminal.If you ever rode te Franklin avenue shuttle you would see the trains run on 1 track at Fulton st and Park Place.That ws the 4 do.After leaving Utica the 2 express tracks emerge into 1 track.After the driver punches in the Manhatthan bound track either local or express then proceed after the signal clear to The Bronx(The single track is visible via a New Lots 3).
The 4 go to M track and descends down into the Manhattan bound platform.
The express tracks (Lex) were designed to terminate at Utica and the local tracks (7Av) were designed to go to New Lots.
Doing Road Simulations Now!
-Stef
The West Jersey Chapter NRHS has a field trip to SEPTA's regional rail mu shop at Overbrook and ALP/Bombardier shop at Frazer on July 21. I've just gotten around to putting my photos up, as thumbnails on Yahoo Photos.
Overbrook shop
Frazer shop
nice photos.
Too bad the took out the old yard at Paoli. That had a duckunder and everything and an interlocking tower onsite. What better place for a rail yard than one that is PCB contaminated up the wazoo. Why go mess some other site up?
there's still a old yard at paoli.do they have any remain there like train cars.
Nope, no yard. All tracks removed, all switches torn out.
Gene Russianoff -- apparently taking a break from organizing those poll watchers for Mark Green for the Sept. 11 mayoral primary -- came out with a report today that the Daily News has rating the speaker systems on NYC subway cars.
The message seems to be: If you're worried about being stuck in an emergency situation on the Seventh Ave. express, take the No. 3 train and not the No. 2 train (and apparently they didn't get around in the story to saying anything about the difference in loudspeakers on the No. 2 trains R-142s compaired with the Redbirds -- I like the `birds, but even I'll admit the speaker systems are closer to the unintelligble R-16s than they are to the R-142's PAs).
Subway Speakers Still What?
View all the survey results here.
The results say nothing about car types... the mostly-Redbird 2 did the worst, but the 7 did rather well. Even more questionable is how the B did so poorly while the D, with the same cars and same maintenance shop, did so well.
As far as the R-142 speaker system, I had one on the 2 a few days ago, and while the automated announcements were clear, the manual announcement sounded like the Saturday Night Live subway announcement sketch.
>>>Even more questionable is how the B did so poorly while the D, with the same cars and same maintenance shop, did so well. <<<
I would imagine that would depend on when the survey was done. Since I see no W mwntioned I would have to surmise it was done before the flip. This being the case the B and D had different maintainance shops and cars at the time the survey was taken.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoops, I thought both were out of Concourse (sorry, Train Dude...). The surveys were done in March/April.
I still think it's rather subjective. I assume the 9 was grouped with the 1 and Z with J, but I wonder how their relative performance would be if they weren't.
I don't know why Straphangers rates everything by line. The specific equipment used is one factor, but, for instance, the R-32's on the N are no different from the R-32's on the C, and there's no reason for the N's R-32's to be dragged up or down by the R-40's and R-68's that also populate the line. Maintenance is another factor. C/R's are a third. Which letter or number happens to appear on the front of the train is not terribly relevant.
Why don't they take a survey of station announcements? Many of those loudspeakers are simply incapable of emitting humanly intelligible sounds. There are exceptions. I've posted before regarding the contrast between announcements at 86th on the 1/9 (somebody should just cut the wires and spare us all the misery) and at 86th on the B/C (excellent -- clear and useful announcements).
A co-worker told me today that back about 2 or 3 years ago there was some type of tech-train running on the IRT 1/9 (Or something of the sort). That had a sloped front with automated announcements. I have never heard of such a thing. The only thing I can think of with a sloped front are the SOAC cars (Which I have never seen in person and about 20 years late) and the R-40's (Which are a bit too big for IRT tunnels). Can anyone clarify on this ??
Thanks
Anthony
The R-110A went into service in 1993 on the #2 line after delivery in late 1992. It had automated announcements but not a sloped front. The cars are now out of service and I have no official information as to whether they will be returned to service (stories on this board indicate that the cars will be modified to be like the R-142As, but that has not been officially confirmed).
David
R-110/110a's notched hours on the 2, A, & C lines.
Never the 1/9.
Maybe we think they were on the 1/9 because they
rode the 1/9 rails on their way to 207 Yard, perhaps?
:)
hopelly it will return in service
I was going to Garden State Plaza but nonetheless part of my trip was on the subway. I took the 7 express from Flushing around 9:30 this mroning. There were many cars with no A/C, the front car had weak A/C and it was 84F inside (still cooler than the 90 already at that time). I got off at Times Square and walked the brutal passageway, it was 95F in there. I waited for the (A)while which was an R38 with good A/C. The ride was quick until we caught up to a lumbering beastly D ahead of us before 125th. The Hippo in front of us seemed stuck between 125th and 145th, we waited about 5 minutes for that thing to budge (this was around 10:30am) Got off at 175th and the GWB bus terminal had no A/C! That is outragous.
Going back in the late afternoon around 6pm I took an R44 A train.
The ride was pretty slow. It was so slow that we left the same time as a C at 168th, and that C caught up to us at 145th street. The ride down CPW was quite slow. I got off at 59th to change for a B or D to Herald Square. Moments after the A train departs, the C arrived on the EXPRESS track. Soon after a B came I took to 34th. There was still some confusion as some people remained on the B train thinking it was going to Brooklyn, so I announced "last stop" as well as the T/O when he got out of his cab. It was hot in the 34th street station, but it was no cooler outside. Midtown must've been brutal earlier in the day as temps soared to the upper 90s. It was still 93F at Herald Square at 7pm.
Going back I was going to take an N or W to the 7 at QBP. BIG MISTAKE. The 34th/Broadway platform was packed and very HOT. I measured 100 degrees down there. After waiting about 6 minutes an N pulls in, and it's too packed to get on. I let a Q across the platform go, hoping the W would soon follow. NOT. An R pulls in, so I just take it to 42nd and walk the ramps to the 100 degree 7 train station. Mobs of people, no trains. A sign says only local trains are running. When the 7 train finally pulls in, the cars I was by had no A/C. I got off and said to myself "screw that crappy 7 train".
I took the 1 up to 34th., The R62 was jerking back and forth really bad, it felt as if the brakes were sticking. We made it to 34th/Penn where I got the 8:19pm LIRR train to Great Neck and then the bus home.
It was one hot day. It hit the mid 90s here on LI (no sea breeze ANYWHERE) and near 100 in the City. It's still 85-90 out there.
And I heard that an SIRT train derailed disrupting service. Also a power outage at Kings Hwy suspended some subway service in Brooklyn.
And we got more of the same for the next two days. Hopefully NYCT and ConEd will be able to handle it.
One things for sure, that 7 train is an oven, and with 10 cars it's more crowded. Most may not agree but the 7 is by far the worst line to ride in the summer.
Hence the need for the R-62s ...
forget the railfan window. I just want my damn A/C
Also a power outage at Kings Hwy suspended some subway service in Brooklyn.
That power outage caused me to lose power for 1.5 hours beginning at around 21:50. For some reason, it was eerily bright outside.
anyone out there remember they days of the pre world war 2 fleet with a """"FAN"""" overhead ?? that was the AC then !!!
when a fan dies, you still have a few others in the car to crowd near. When an ac dies, the whole car is screwed.
bring back the fans!!!
not a bad idea to have the fans ...........hmmmmm.........could be a good backup i see your point there !! .......lol !!
Almost all cars were intolerable without air conditioning. The only exceptions were the open gate cars, when they were moving. Even this was not as good as a car with functioning air conditioning.
Usually all or half the fans in a car went out together. The only hope was to find a car whose incandescant lights were out. A car with no lights but working fans was the closest thing to nirvana in those days.
lol !! they were TOUGH back in those good old days !!
Salaam, there is a big difference between a car with AC and one without it by design. Take for example the R-33s on the #7 line vs the R-36 on the #7 line. They are basically the same car except that one has the original fans and one was converted to AC. While the R-33 is tollerable, even on a day like today, kill the AC on the R-36 and you have a problem. One reason is that on non-AC cars, the cars take in more fresh air than AC cars. There are dampers that work on a logic circuit that adjust the amount of air coming in from the outside. On the AC cars, you have a fixed flow of air although I don't remember the spec. off hand (I seem to recall 25%/Hr). That's why pre-AC cars were tollerable and a non-functioning AC car is not.
train dude i tell you what ........ i did see in the news how the HEAT wave it very high ( not that it is any cooler out here either )
& i do remember the middle 1980s MARTA rail cars win 1/2 ac working with stinking CARPET on the floor-stink !! { whew } !
& no windows to open up either!! I do see & agree with your point etc., the old non ac cars took in FRESH AIR & with FANS!!
( not to mention large side windows ) My other comment is how i notice buildings with no windows you can open up to let in fresh air
BUSES TOO. So anyway i agree wtih you as it is possible to experence non ac conditions in other places as well !!
thanks for the info ( smile ) salamallah
Ummm...84 degrees in the front car? How was that determined? Subway cars don't have their own thermometers...
David
I brought my own thermometer/ Lately LI Bus has a MUCH better record with A/C than the 7 train. :-0
Just about any other line has better A/C on average than #7... I couldn't breathe that time I took the #7 with no A/C that was so disgusting
You have one of those portable thermometers? Where do you get one?
Seems cool to have it on a key chain or something.
It's almost 10 years old and I got it from the Wind and Weather catalog.
Try working in those hot steamy stations or tunnels for eight or more hours. Just standing there the sweat pours off of you, try swinging a hammer or lifting running rails. Working in the subway around this time of year is no picnic, then you get to know what "hot" really is.
Man I don't how the track workers do it. That is very tough.
I measured a temperature of 102 degrees this afternoon in Sea Cliff, it felt like a subway station out there with no breeze. Still 93 out there right now. And in my apartment it's almost 100 degrees inside my apartment, a "cool" 85 degrees in the room with the A/C, which is where I am staying. It's so hot in here because there's no insulation. Well once I eventually move sometime this Fall, I won't be sweating it out here anymore.
And yes the 102F was in the shade.
There was major problems on the Fourth Ave. subway during the PM rush Tuesday due to (as I was told) a BIE on a s/b W train leaving 36th St. On my M trip to Bay Pkwy, it was stop and go all the way from mid Montague tube all the way to Bay Pkwy. I arrived 20 minutes late. There was a long delay to n/b W service due to running out of trains! The #7 line had numerous problems all rush and well into the evening (I believe signal trouble in the tube) and there was signal trouble on the Franklin shuttle late into the evening and into the midnite hours.
I may be a railfan but when it's nearly 100 degrees outside there is no way I'm doinga ny subway riding. I'm just gonna "hibernate" indoors and in air conditioning until this heat wave blows over.
The heat is bound to cause many electrical problems. All the ATM's in my area were out this afternoon. Good thing I have some spare change around! :-)
At least part of the 7 problem was an express train stalled at Woodside around 5:40 p.m.
When the 7 train finally pulls in, the cars I was by had no A/C.
HEY! I thought someone informed me that the T/A was REMOVING NON A/C cars from the #7 line! What a MISLEADING STATEMENT!
You really have to be a LUCKY FAN to get A/C on the #7 Flushing line. If you come across an R36 #9661 with #9660, #9661 has probably the BEST FUNCTIONING A/C of the Flushing Line fleet. Seur gut throughout the heat wave this week!
Railfan Pete.
The one escalator going up at Grand Central was gated off, the one at the W end of the 7 platform. There's only one available due to repairs. Perhaps if NYCT can't keep the escalators running, they should be privately owned. I never see such frequent breakdowns in escalators in malls and office buildings, as well as PATH.
When everyone saw the thing gated off when they got off the 7 this morning, there was alot of groaning.
broken acs, broken subway escalators... broken record?
wobble wooble.
It's not the heat, it's the humidity. that's my excuse.
Exactly, what "normal" escalator runs in the conditions found in the subway?
Perhaps if NYCT can't keep the escalators running, they should be privately owned.
Some of them are... the escalators in the 53 St-Lexington Ave transfer are operated by the owner of the Citigroup building, and they're out of service pretty frequently.
Didn't the TA have them repaired a few years ago? (Not that it did any good.)
It is a problem. Are escalators in shopping malls and offices in service 24/7 like the subway. Even the PATH escalators at WTC are occasionally shut down for a rest.
On the viaduct over the Gowanus Canal, a middle track, B5, appears between 4th Av. and Smith-9th. It descends, seemingly to a level below the other tracks. Does it just deadend or does it go to street level? Is it used for anything, and if not, why's it there?!
Thanks
Seth
it could've be part of a planned connection between the 4th avenue lines and the F line, but I don't know if any such plans were ever made, and if they were, why only 1 track was used, not 2. Was the track going down towards 4th ave, or towards smith+9th?
Toward Smith-9th.
Seth
On the viaduct over the Gowanus Canal, a middle track, B5, appears between 4th Av. and Smith-9th. It descends, seemingly to a level below the other tracks. Does it just deadend or does it go to street level? Is it used for anything, and if not, why's it there?!
It just goes about a train-length down "into" the bridge structure and dead-ends against a bumper-block. I don't know why it ran to a different level when built. It is presently used in relaying G trains that terminate at Smith-9th.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
The track doesn't descend, it's the main tracks that ascend.
The track doesn't descend, it's the main tracks that ascend.
Geez, see what I get for posting past my bedtime :-) Yes, you are quite correct. B1-3-4-2 rise at about a 2.85% grade and B5 continues as before (also on a slight rise, about 0.35% garde) to the bumper block.
B5 is our Last Best Hope For Peace about 719 feet long in total, and about 700 feet usable--or about one train length-and-a-bit from the fouling point of X-16 ball to the marker signal.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Is it B5 the trains relay on? I think they use B3, B5 faces the wrong way.
I think B3 and 4 do not run between 4th Ave and Smith and 9th anymore.
G trains layup on B3 track at the 4th Avenue station. The last time I was through that area, B3 and B4 were in their correct places from north of Ditmas Avenue to south of Jay Street.
But they are out of service between Smith/9 and 4th Ave and have been for some time. The tracks are there but they don't run anything. They work on it like it's an afterthought.
Extensive maintenance is being done to the viaduct itself, which is why the express tracks are fenced off. You can see all of the job boxes out in the center. There is also an opening cut through the structure at Simth/9th station where supplies are hoisted up through.
The tracks are in working order. There was that GO about a month ago that used them in both directions.
It's a level track that can be used to lay up a train. It's not used for relays. It's level because laying up a train on the grade dangerous.
-Hank
It's a level track that can be used to lay up a train. It's not used for relays. It's level because laying up a train on the grade dangerous
What he said.
You're absolutely right; I mis-stated the bit about relaying. I don't even know if the signals allow for relaying. Everything looks OK except moves between B5 and B4--I can see no reference that would allow that move--and it would be a bear of a move if possible.
Must be old age creeping up on me :-)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
>>On the viaduct over the Gowanus Canal, a middle track, B5, appears between 4th Av. and Smith-9th. It descends, seemingly to a level below the other tracks. Does it just deadend or does it go to street level? Is it used for anything, and if not, why's it there?!<<
Funny, I think my first new post was on this topic.
Anyway, the track is a spur. It doesn't run down to street level, as another poster mentioned, it has only 719 feet to it. It initial purpose was laying-up trains, but now it serves no purpose, and I haven't seen it in use at any time.
If you look at the viaduct from the nearby Gowanus Expressway, you will clearly notice that this track dead-ends.
Joe Brennan has updated his Abandoned Stations site very nicely.
Wow! What a super job!
--Mark
Nicely is an understatement!!! It is an excellent job.
Joe, if you read this (an d I am sure you will), you should consider looking into having the information published in book form.
BTW - I think you should give some special mention somewhere to the Dean Street station on the Franklin Shuttle. It may not be there anymore but it was an abandoned station for a short while.
Interesting as to whether Dean Street is an "abandoned" station or a non-station. I think Joe Brennan only covers stations which exist but are unused.
Is there any physical evidence of the former station, now that the structure has been rebuilt?
Interesting as to whether Dean Street is an "abandoned" station or a non-station. I think Joe Brennan only covers stations which exist but are unused.
Is there any physical evidence of the former station, now that the structure has been rebuilt?
Nothing that I could see from the train, even though I was looking carefully for traces. Something might be visible from ground level. Guess I'll have to mosey out that way to see.
By the way, Joe Brennan's page on abandoned elevated stations does meake brief mention of Dean Street.
Thanks, but I haven't gotten that far on his pages yet.
Then shouldn't he include Pitkin Ave. and 76th Street in the equation? (interesting proposition).
BMTman
I discussed this with him, and he set out his reasons that he doesn't believe it exists, and, barring better evidence than we now have, I agree with his non-inclusion.
Good enough explanation for me, Paul.
His site rocks! So much good stuff! And the diagrams...those alone are worth going to the site!! Thanks for pointing out that he updated it.
Wow, excellent work. I've bookmarked it for serious browsing this weekend.
I'm sure someone's been over this before, but I'd like to know what is up the incline between the end of the tunnel and the platform at 9th Ave on the W (and now M)line? I can't figure how it could have connected to the Culver at Ditmas.
It went from under 9th Avenue (lower level) then came outdoors through a cut and up a ramp to an elevated structure (of 1917 vintage) that ran approximately along 37th Street (I think between 37th and 38th is where it went) with stations (in the style of the rest of the Culver Line) at Fort Hamilton Parkway and 13th Avenue. It continued to McDonald (then Gravesend) Avenue and then turned south towards Coney Island. Remember, the connection to the IND was not established until 1954. So this is the way it was between 1917 and then. This was a three-track line with express service, and it served the BMT #5 (Culver) route. In 1954 the Culver was connected to the IND Church Avenue. This reduced the part between Ditmas and 9th Avenue to a shuttle. They built an extra trackway for this shuttle at Ditmas and it ran as a one-track operation until 1975. Only the south side platforms were in use at Ft. Hamilton and 13th Avenue.
Check out the line-by-line Culver Page for full history of this line and the shuttle.
wayne
See also Culver Shuttle Closes.
As has been mentioned on the board about a year or two back, it's too bad the MTA abandoned both the line and the right-of-way of the Culver line connection when it did. With a little work (and at a lot lower cost than the DeKalb-Rutgers connection would be), the now-demolished link between the Culver and West End lines could have been modified to carry B trains via the Rutgers tunnel and the current F train route to Church Ave., and then cut back east between Church and Ditmas to meet up with the West End line. If the line was still there, a couple of flying junctions and some new track would have been all that would have needed to have been added.
The link would have allowed for continued through B train service from Coney Island to 145th or Bedford Pk. Blvd. while the Sixth Ave. side of the Manny B was being repaired instead of the split B/W service, and it would have permitted express service (assuming the Bergen switch was fixed) on the Culver line between Jay Street and Church Ave., since all stations between Church and Jay would have direct service into Manhattan via Sixth Ave.
Another example of why the MTA should really think hard before abandoning any right-of-ways...
The curve required to bring trains from the shuttle into the subway under McDonald would be too sharp for trains to make, making this a HIGHLY impractical solution.
Right-of-way Jack, that's why I said they shouldn't have given up the right-of-way. You can build or rebuild if you own the right-of-way.
If they had kept that, then they would have the option to re-link the tracks in a way that was less expensive than the currently discussed connection between DeKalb and the Rutgers tunnel, even if some new construction was required. Building an elevated link is cheaper and faster than building underground when you've got a problem like the Manny B to deal with, but since the ROW was gone that cheap and dirty alternative was not longer there.
If you had been old enough to have taken the Culver Shuttle, you'd know the curves at both ends would have to have been rebuilt -- the curve at the point east of the Ninth St. station where the Culver and West End meet would have been even sharper than the one at Ditmas and McDonmald if only the original trestle was used, since both trains left the Ninth Ave. terminal paralell to each other, but at different levels.
If the MTA had maintained ownership of the ROW between the two sections, or better yet, the original latticework itself, a new concrete section could have be built to align the track for the reverse connections to the Culver line coming from Church Ave. and from the West End line, between Ninth Ave. and Fort Hamilton Parkway. And I'll admit, the West End connection probably would have had to secure air rights over private property to soften the angle of the curve enough to handle 75-foot trains, but even with that, the cost-benfit ratio would be better than the DeKalb-Rutgers option.
This plan would've meant considerable construction, so using it as an emergency plan would not make sense. Only the loss of the use of both sets of Manhattan bridge tracks would justify this, something that is HIGHLY unlikely.
I would've kept the ROW and el structure anyway. Ditmas Ave. would be the logical place to terminate Nassau St. trains after Chrystie St opened, but the ripping out of one track made this impossible.
Do you have any idea how SLOW the F is between Ditmas and 6th Avenue...
Why if I had the option I would have switched from the F to the B line via the Culver Shuttle Connection, and take the bridge to Bway.
Elias
But a B and an F (sounds like Shirley Ellis' "Name Game, doesn't it?) between Church and Jay would have allowed one to run express and the other to run local, since all the local stations (Carroll, Smith-9th, etc.) would have lost their objection that they didn't have a one-seat ride to Manhattan by having only G train service, which was the problem with the F express between 1968 and 1976.
The Culver connection was on the (railroad) south side of 9th Ave. station. The ramps you are talking about, I think, went to the old 5th Ave. elevated line.
Yes... you can see the ramps to what was the fifth avenue el, and also to what was the third ave el continuing in an easterly direction where the B turns north onto 5th avenue.
9th Avenue was one of the hubs of the old BRT system (along with Broadway Junction) that must have just been marvelous in their heyday.
As we bow our heads in memory of the RedBirds, let us also remember these two fine junctions... and also the Chambers Street Terminal! : )
Elias
Ok, boys. All of that info is very interesting, but has simply confused me more. The way the station is configured, when you leave on a Manhattan bound W, you could immediately ascend via the ramps that I am talking about. There are 4, though only two still have track. Since that is Approx. Manhattan bound, how could it have gone to Ditmas and MacDonald? Last I was through there, there was half a married pair of Redbirds up the incline.
There are two sets of ramps; one (the one that still has track) leads to the 38th St. yard; the other _did_not_ lead to the Culver Line; it led to the 5th Avenue El. The ramp up to the Culver is not visible form any passing trains. Trains going to the culver used to go _down_ to the lower level of the 9th Avenue station (you can see these ramps from any Coney Island-bound train); then come _up_ on the other side of the station, and go up a different set of ramps to the Culver tracks. Though you can not see this set of ramps from the W line, you can see them from the street at 37th St. just before Ft. Hamilton Pkwy. Hope this helps.
subfan
To see the Culver connection get on a northbound M train somewhere between Bay pkway and Ft Hamilton Pkway. Go stand in the railfan window and watch to your right as the train goes around the curve into 9th Ave. You should see a three (two?) track portal entrance - that is where the Culver came out of 9th Ave Lower and headed to Ditmas Ave. As you continue toward Manhattan, the first ramp - the one with rail still there - north of 9th Ave leads up to the yard; the second ramp led up to the former El on 5th Ave.
Thank you. Knew I wasn't crazy. When did the 5th Ave El come down? What was it's through service to Manhattan, if any?
The 5th Ave. el met it's demise in 1940, the same time the Fulton el was closed west of Rockaway Ave. The el provided some service via the Bklyn Bridge to Park Row as well as Sands St.
BTW, anyone know where this elevated terminal was located as compared to the present day area? I often wonder when I'm walking to/from J & R Music World where this enormous elevated structure once stood.
I believe it was right at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge - across from Pace University where the ramps from the FDR feed into the bridge.
Thanks. That location would not be where the present Park Row is.
It seems that, due to some type of GO, the W4th to 34th Street express run can still be ridden, albeit at night and N/B only. For the past 2 mornings when I arrived at 34th St, at 0430, the D that I was on terminated on the downtown express track and F trains were seen running on the uptown express track. Don't know how long this will last.
Peace,
ANDEE
Now that their website is back up I was able to verify that this will be in effect 'till at least Friday. W4 - W34th EXPRESS RUN LIVES!
Peace,
ANDEE
The DASH lives on!
I have noticed that B and D trains, which now terminate at 34th Street, have been much cleaner. Congratulations to Train Dude and his people.
Peace,
ANDEE
As listed above, I am looking for a copy of this book "Seeing New York- The Official MTA Travel Guide" printed in 1976.
If anyone has a copy to sell, or knows somebody with a copy to sell, then please either e-mail me at Q44VP@aol.com or post a message here on SubTalk. I am willing to pay very good money for this book and I've been searching for this book for years. Anything that you can do would be VERY appreciated and I WILL purchase the book regardless of condition (though the better condition it's in, the more $$$ it's worth).
Thank you,
Zman
P.S. Please don't post a message saying that "Oh I have a copy, but it's not for sale". I've heard enough of that to last many years.
Lotsa luck. I have been looking for a long time as well. It hasn't even shown up on ebay.
Let us write to the TA/MTA to Rewrite the book for the 100th annerversary of the IRT Subway In 2004?
I have just returned from a trip to Moscow, and while there, I got a chance to use the subway system. I must say that by comparison, the NYC Subway looks horrible. First, the Moscow subway generates enough revenue to not need subsidy. At the same time, they are able to keep all the trains and stations in good condition and provide adequate service for the 8 milllion people who use it daily. During rush hours, trains on most lines run every 80-100 seconds, and off-peak headways are around 4 minutes. The trains go up to 55mph, and can go from one end of Moscow to the other in about an hour. The fare is 5 rubles ($0.15) for a single ride, and somewhat less for multiple rides.
More evidence of what a Marxist society can produce. I like to see a capitalist society develop such a system. If it doesn't make a PROFIT, it must be no good...........
Hey Piggo, I'm sure you can a real cheap ticket to Pyongyang, Havana, Hanoi, or Vientienne. I'm sorry, Beijing is no longer on the agenda. Maybe you've heard they have gone mostly capitalist now. Then you write to us about the wonders of those socialist paradises you seem to be enamored with.
Unless that subway happens to be in the nation's capital. Washington and Moscow do come to mind in that case. (Moscow's metro in the capital of Russia; it is the largest system in the world. Washington's Metro; in the US capital, will eventually unseat NYC since Congress is bankrolling it's planning and construction.)
If NYC ran at 90 second headways (40 tph) during rush hours, slightly less than Moscow's performance, then NYC would not need many of the costly and yet to be implemented expansions.
What are you talking about? Where's the evidence? Moscow subway, as claimed, doesn't need subsidy NYC at the same time does.
Arti
It's obvious they only make a profit because so few Moscovites own cars.
Why? Because the communists made car ownership difficult.
It's wonderful how a marxist society can only produce anything useful through oppression.
...the communists made car ownership difficult.
The communists also made sorry cars. :)
Mark
The communists also made sorry cars. :)
Including such wonderful examples as the Lada, which was imported in small quantities into Canada. We saw one - or what was left of it - sitting in front of a junkyard bewteen Sherbrooke and Magog, Québec a couple of weeks ago. On the other hand, they made some others that really weren't bad - the Zil limousine comes to mind (fundamentally a '56 Packard Caribbean - they bought the tooling after the big Packard was killed off by merger partner Studebaker) and the Czech-built Tatra (there are two offered on eBay right now).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> what a Marxist society can produce. <<<
You are of course speaking of low wages for the subway workers and major cities where most of the population is too poor to even consider ever owning an automobile. :-)
Tom
Here it is:
http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010807.atc.09.rmm
Don't know how long they keep these files but it was there this morning.
Bill
Still there.
Here are a few things I would like to see.
L - extended South via Flatlands to Kings Highway or Flatbush Ave.
2/5 - extended South via Nostrand to Sheepshead Bay.
3/4 - extended to JFK All times - both trains.
D - Orange - Return to Normal route pre-bridge flip.
V - Orange - via Brighton Line to 71/Continental, then heading N/E to serve that part of Queens - line extension and new tunnels.
Q - Yellow Circle - via Brighton to 21st/Queensbridge or 57th/7th via Broadway Express.
G - to Coney Island via Culver Line
M - to Coney Island All times via West End from Myrtle Ave.
9 - Tottenville to 254th St Bronx - via new Cross Harbor Tunnel, new lower level of South Ferry Station to be built in conjunction with the expansion of the ferry terminal. Skip stop in Manhattan and Bronx.
8 - North Shore of SIRT to be reopened and to terminate at ST. George Ferry for the boats, or 9 Train
5 - reroute via 42nd Street "S" from Lex to 7th Ave line from Bronx to 42nd Street, crosstown, via 7th Express to Chambers and then to reconnect back to regular 5 line in Brooklyn ALL TIMES. 42nd Street "S" Eliminated.
2 - reroute via 42nd Street "S" from 7th to Lex Ave line from Bronx to 42nd Street, crosstown, via Lex Ave Line and then to reconnect back to regular 2 line in Brooklyn ALL TIMES. 42nd Street "S" Eliminated.
S - Orange - from Prospect Ave "S" to Franklin Ave "C" stop, then via A/C line to Ozone Park - Lefferts Blvd - and expansion of line east to Nassau Border.
A - to Far Rockaway ALL TIMES. Eliminate "S"
C - to Rockaway Park ALL TIMES. Eliminate "S"
E/J/Z - extend East to Nassau Border.
F - east to Nassau Border.
W - Yellow - Whitehall to Astoria OFF PEAK - PEAK Coney Island to Astoria - via Montague Tunnel and West End Line - also extend the line of the W/N to LGA.
N - Extend to LGA and Make Broadway Express Again via Bridge.
R - Run via 63rd Street Tunnel to Connect with Queens Blvd Lines.
L - Extend to 11th AVe - then north to 34th Street Terminal
7 - Extend to 11th AVe - then south to 34th Street Terminal - also expand Northeast in Queens to better serve that community and run via the water line to the Nassau Border.
1/9 - extend to 254th Street by going Northwest.
H - Blue - from whitehall terminal - North via Water Street - then second Avenue - transfer point at 125th - then north into the Bronx tracing along the former Third Avenue Line.
K - Blue - from 36th Street Brooklyn via M line to Chambers, etc, then express on 2nd Avenue to 63rd Street via Tunnel to Astoria line to LGA.
These are All My proposals. What do people think?
Uh..hmm.. welllllllllllll.. Um...
You're out of your mind..sez I to myself.
I would have to agree.
What's wrong with these changes?
Improved access to more areas, etc. - Is that bad? If it is, then maybe you think like the TA.
Umm...well, for starters, they would cost about eleventy-billion [smile] dollars to construct. And that's before the NIMBY/environmental lawsuits...
You know, I seem to recall reading somewhere that back around the time the IND was planning its 2nd system, that there was a regional plan to have concentric rings of transit lines circling the city with hub-and-spoke connections to the existing subway infrastructure. Think of how hard it would be to build somehting like *that* these days...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
What exactly is NIMBY?
I say just ignore it - a lot of political BS - it's what matters for the people - better service and access.
NIMBY = NOT IN MY BACKYARD. People are always 100% for new things like subway lines UNTIL they have to live through years of construction in their neighborhood.
NIMBY is a very powerful tool to fight things political.
What exactly is NIMBY?
I say just ignore it - a lot of political BS - it's what matters for the people - better service and access.
Not In My Back Yard. In other words, people who want transit and other major developments built, well, not anywhere near them. Most of them will say that they're concerned with property values. They're too dense, apparently, to realize that better transit and infrastructure usually enhances property values. Sometimes, they're trying to avoid the noise and commotion invariably associated with major infrastructure projects - admittedly, a not entirely unjustified stance given New York's habit of taking an eternity to finish even relatively simple projects. Finally, while they'll never admit to it, many NIMBY's are afraid that the projects will bring minorities to their area. This particular fear is probably more significant with respect to transit projects than with other types.
It would be wonderful if these people could be ignored. In many cases their numbers are surprisingly small, as most people will come to see the need for better transit and other types of infrastructure. Unfortunately, our legal system being what it is, a handful of determined opponents can tie up even a widely supported project in court until the funding runs out or priorities changes, thereby effectively killing it off.
"I say just ignore it - a lot of political BS - it's what matters for the people - better service and access."
Ignoring the NIMBY response is like ignoring the law of gravity. It's a fact of life, whether you like it or not. And these people do have a say as to what goes in their backyards (especially if it goes above ground). Otherwise, you're as bad as the rubblemaker extraordinaire Robert Moses.
Now NIMBYism can get out of hand, and I don't blame you for being frustrated. However, beating your head against the wall and trying to move mountains is pointless. Stay focussed on smart engineering that the public is receptive to and can be achieved in a timely manner. Otherwise, it's just another pointless, pie-in-the-sky subway construction post.
For example, where is your ridership data to support the ~$100 billion in construction costs for your plan (give or take an order of magnitude)? Subways don't build themselves. The engineering rule of thumb is $1 billion dollars and a life lost per miles of tunnelling. Add some on to that because its New York City -- the most difficult place to build.
It never hurts to dream, but for all your energy spent arguing about NIMBYs, you could have written a letter to your local politician demanding a Second Avenue subway; a realistic transit plan that can and will happen.
MATT-2AV
okay i have no problem with the rest only 2/5 and 3
2 is one of the longest subway lines so why extend it
5 i would make it be the #3 line since the #5 runs like crap
why make it a longer ride and why pay more taxes
r142man
Lines 8 & 9 are IRT (A Div) Lines, The SIRT Main Line & North Shore Lines are built to BMT (B Div) Spects.
If IRT cars are able to run via Manhattan Bridge and other lines as service trains, what's to prevent them from running on BMT lines? Maybe gap fillers?
>>Maybe gap fillers?<<
The TA would not want to build any more 'gap fillers'. As it stands, they would love to eliminate the ones they have. There is no reason to run IRT equipment on any B division trackage during revenue service. Use on the garbage train: fine. Use on an A train: not fine.
IRT cars haven't run in 'service' on B div lines for years. It's been rumored that there were mixed consists during the 70's (rumors on this board), but the last real attempt at this was when IRT Low-V's were retrofitted with side sills so that they could operate on B division lines, mainly on the Culver Shuttle.
Here's a picture. Notice, that the added sills provided apmle space for some bonehead kid to 'surf' on the side of the subway.
Usally the only time you see IRT cars on BMT/IND Tracks are Cars to Coney Island for Repair/Scrap (Corona has a special car with Brakes on both sides of the car (For Tripcocks)),Revenue Cars (Former IRT) and work Trains.
1.Nimby is going too oppose all of these plans.
2.This would drag the City into bankrupcy
3.The MTA would have to re build Grand Central
4.Most of these plans were already tried.
Why did the MTA close the original crosstown at 42nd via the now "S" and make this shuttle? - No sense
Why did the MTA close the original crosstown at 42nd via the now "S" and make this shuttle? - No
sense
The MTA didn't do that. The IRT did, way way back in the era of Dual Contracts.
I wish someone had thought of connecting the Corona line with the other IRTs via underground. The only direct link, via the 2nd Ave El, was eliminated in the 1940's.
:-) Andrew
The Shuttle platforms are to small for a 10 or 9 car train.
Aye-yi-yi...
Please explore other parts of this wonderful website, particularly the history of the NYC subway. The "original" crosstown to which you refer was a portion of the original subway line built in NYC (with apologies to Beach Pneumatic Transit).
The first IRT subway line consisted of what is now the lower Manhattan portion of the Lex line, the GC/TS Shuttle, and the upper Manhattan portion of the 7th Ave line.
This is all covered more accurately and in in much greater detail elsewhere on this site. Poke around a bit on the site...it's great fun, I think.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Why did the MTA close the original crosstown at 42nd via the now "S" and make this shuttle? - No sense
The MTA never eliminated it, the MTA was 50 years from being created.
The NYCTA was 35 years from being created.
World War II would not start for 21 more years.
Whoa, before you start rambling off your thoughts about extensions, several FACTORS affect your proposals greatly:
1) Not enough evidence. Extension and growth of Subway would mean ridership demands in the city where subway service is NOT available.
2) Budget. All of the money spent in your proposals combined will equal more than a trillion ($1,000,000,000,000) dollars. I am not kidding. You know, new signals, new tracks, crossties, loads of stone and cement, workers, I-beams, escalators, stairs, wall tiles, and paint just DON'T GROW ON TREES. The City and the MTA itself will NOT expose itself to such UNNECESSARY bankruptcy.
Of course, the T/A is already spending $1.9 BILLION to improve its subway system, so people who are bugged just STOP COMPLAINING. The T/A is TOILING ALL THEY CAN TO PROVIDE SERVICE TO THOSE COMPLAINING BUTTS WHO TRY TO USE THE SUBWAY. And of course, not enough salaries to pay those workers building the subway.
3) Time. It will take too long to build all of your proposed suggestions. By the time you receive your retirement bill, the MTA might be halfway done.
4) You can't eliminate the lines (esp. shuttles) with your own choice. If you have a PLAN, you MUST record the number of ridership taken at each shuttle and subway line. The Washington Hgts. A train CANNOT be FULL-TIME service to FAR ROCKAWAY, as there are trains to LEFFERTS BLVD. in Queens for their passenger service. You can't be selfish in your consideration to proposing an extension of a new subway.
5) Maps. New maps will have to be placed in ALL SUBWAY STATIONS, PAMPHLETS, and ALL TRAINS! Also, the E/J/Z and the F Culver line CANNOT EXTEND BEYOND QUEENS, because QUEENS is the exterior BOUNDARY BOROUGH OF NEW YORK CITY. NASSAU COUNTY IS PART OF LONG ISLAND, AND LIRR SERVICE IS PLENTY HERE AND BEYOND.
6) Service Advisories. ALL TRAINS CANNOT TRAVEL ON BRIDGES OF YOUR TIMES AND CHOICES. NOT ENOUGH TUBES AND TIME FOR SIGNALS AND TRACKS FOR THE BRIDGE, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION ON THE SOUTHBOUND 2 TRACKS FOR ANOTHER FEW YEARS.
You have to think about the factors before proposing a different subway suggestion. I'm not saying those suggestions are bad, it's just that the supplies and workers you need don't grow on trees. The T/A's CAPITAL PROGRAM maintains ALL of its BUDGETS for the Subway.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
no offense this is not railroad tycoon where you can build train tracks at will
no offense this is not railroad tycoon where you can build train tracks at will this is for the guy who wrote this whole proposed subway line stuff
5) Maps. New maps will have to be placed in ALL SUBWAY STATIONS, PAMPHLETS, and ALL TRAINS! Also, the E/J/Z and the F Culver line CANNOT EXTEND BEYOND QUEENS, because QUEENS is the exterior BOUNDARY BOROUGH OF NEW YORK CITY. NASSAU COUNTY IS PART OF LONG ISLAND, AND LIRR SERVICE IS PLENTY HERE AND BEYOND.
Wasnt there some talk a few years ago about "Taking Over" the Nassau portion of the LIRR and converting it to Subway use. I know I heard it somewhere (Obviously It wont happen). Also the E train was supposed to be extended to Southeastern Queens along with the 'A'.
Hmm. Interesting fact, but if that were to happen, you know what the factors will be. And about the E train extending to southeastern Queens along with the 'A', wouldn't the E line then have to SWERVE GREATLY DOWNWARD to meet it? (I'm not shouting I'm just stressing the words)
According to the map, I don't think there is a tunnel available from the Queens Blvd. line to drift to Lefferts Blvd., although I know about an abandoned plan at Roosevelt Av. which is sealed up (but available at times for railfan viewing and observing) and the proposed rail line from there would go somewhere else. (Maybe I'll go check again, thanks for the info. compiled by webmaster David Pirmann)
: )
Railfan Pete.
I'm aware there were some pretty big ideas there and agree with the thoughts of expense etc. Guess the simplest thing I can say is the huge majority of the present system was built in less than 40 years with a lot more primitive machinery, engineering wasn't as advanced, etc.
But the world was different then and public money was available for works and infrastructure. I'll keep my opinions of what is done with too much public money today to myself for now.
Is this all?
Elias
I think the heat is getting to you !
Bill "Newkirk"
Na - been thinking about this for A LONG TIME.
Well the TA is constantly in expansion. What you have written could happen, just not for many decades.
>>V - Orange - via Brighton Line to 71/Continental, then heading N/E to serve that part of Queens - line extension and new tunnels.<<
Why not run the V on Culver? Forget adding a third service to Brighton.
>>S - Orange - from Prospect Ave "S" to Franklin Ave "C" stop, then via A/C line to Ozone Park - Lefferts Blvd - and expansion of line east to Nassau Border.<<
Serves no purpose. Who will ride a train from prospect park to Ozone Park? Not better than the present shuttle.
>>Q - Yellow Circle - via Brighton to 21st/Queensbridge or 57th/7th via Broadway Express<<
Must terminate at 57/7th to avoid conflicts with thru trains on 63rd.
>>R - Run via 63rd Street Tunnel to Connect with Queens Blvd Lines.<<
Present 60th st tunnel works much better, allows transfer to 4,5,6 unlike 63rd.
>>K - Blue - from 36th Street Brooklyn via M line to Chambers, etc, then express on 2nd Avenue to 63rd Street via Tunnel to Astoria line to LGA.<<
Run the train on Queens Plaza instead. You'll get much more service there than at LGA.
Considering all of this could be put into effect with a snap. . .
"Q - Yellow Circle - via Brighton to 21st/Queensbridge or 57th/7th via Broadway Express"
Don't forget 63rd St will be open.
Photo I took Tuesday morning at a fire in Brooklyn is 1/2 page in today's NY Daily News. Page 22 of the Racing Final; QLI and KSI editions.
Oh, and their web site has a story and photo of the SIR R44 on two tracks at the same time.
http://www.nydailynews.com/2001-08-08/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-121085.asp
-Hank
Scanned the page from the News, for those not in NYC:
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/dailynewsphoto8-8-01.JPG"
And what happened to my car today? *&()^_*& Livery drivers who don't understand what the double-yellow line means.
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/rtfrtfender.JPG
-Hank
Geez ... my sympathies ... and with all the stories about "insurance fraud" downstate, that's going to be a pain in the butt to get processed. SERIOUSLY, my sympathies. Hope YOU'RE OK ... nice shot too for da paper. My pops was a photog (freelancer) for the Daily Mirror so I know how ya lives. :)
I'm not that bad off freelancing, because I don't depend on it (NAI is my day job). That's my first 'sold' shot. I want to get the whole thing plaqued or something...
-Hank
Yep, know the game ... I've written technical pieces for IDG and others in times past - that $125 check whenever it showed up was nice. Still don't know how Steve (ahem "Bob Cringely") does it. :)
And what happened to my car today? *&()^_*& Livery drivers who don't understand what the double-yellow line means.
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/rtfrtfender.JPG
Good God, you've got bad luck with cars! You ought to trade in your Sunbird (I think that's what it is, from the picture) and pick up a used Suburban or Land Cruiser. It would be a laugh to see what one of those would do to a wayward livery cab :-)
It's apparently inherited. My uncle had a chunk of concrete fall from the upper deck of the VZ and mashed his hood, in addition to numerous other incidents. My brother totaled my dad's van two months after he cracked-up my mother's car.
I haven't owned a car for a full year yet!
-Hank
You got some serrrrious bad luck with cars. My condolences to you and your Saturn...
BMTman
Pontiac Sunfire...
-Hank
I was on a southbound R train this morning at about nine o'clock. I could have sworn that i saw a train of R-40 slants going northbound at 28 st on the express tracks as a W. The rear sign had a diamond W but unlike the diamond Q the sign was nicely illuminated. It was very clear, unlike the diamond Q. Was I dreaming or did this really happen this morning?
Before the flip, an occasional slant would appear on a B train. Since the W uses the former B line equipment, it could be quite possible.
And I had an R-68 Q-diamond express last night, leaving Brighton around 7pm. This followed a long delay in service, so maybe it was an exception. The Q-diamond front sign was nicely lit, of course, although the car (2748) was hot, with broken A/C.
I got a picture of such a train last friday afternoon. Lemme see if I can upload it. be right back.
Due to a power failure at Kings Hwy there was delays in Q service. At 4pm there was a 68 Q Diamond Local on the downtown express with the uptown express empty. It sat for over 15 minutes. 40Slant Q diamond pulled in and the PA annoucned it was leaving first (and it did). They could just swapped trainets or something.
UGH! That must have been awful. When an R68 or R68A loses its A/C, the results are outright miserable.
wayne
It seems every r-68 I have been on in the last few days has had busted ac
There is a car assigment roster. R40's are not supposed to be on the W but you should realise that these assignments are not made in stone. If they need a train for W service and only an R40 is availiable, it will be used.
Besides, you said you were looking at the *rear* letterboard.
Thre were (apparently) diamond W's on the original rolls, and many of these were showing on the first day of ops on the the W, so may hap a tray was cut for some reason somewhere, and since that end of the train was both irrelevent to the T/O and also not seen by him/her, it would have stayed there for awhile.
No big deal.
Elias
And it would surprise me not if a shovelnose or two made its way over to the "W". I think they only have the diamond "W" signs there.
wayne
The massive heat of yesterday and today have triggered temperature related speed retrictions on the NEC. This is why many Amtrak trains, most notable Acela Express, have been late.
Heat affects the suspension of canatery wires, especially the section between NY and Washington because the wires are variablely suspended.
Since the wires are fixed suspension between New Haven and Boston, does the condition of the wires still affect the speed of the trains at that section?
Chaohwa
Damn the wires, full speed ahead.
Actually it also has to do w/ the expantion of the track itself. All the defect detectors here in CT (Amtrak Windsor, Amtrak Berlin and Amtrak North Haven? to named three) spout the temptature so that the engineers know when to obey the heat restrictions.
I'd guess that's standard rules on all intercity RR's. We had it on MRL and BN too> IIRC reduced from 60 MPH to 50 over 90 deg. F and below zero or was it below minus 10 were likewise restricted.
In hot weather rails can get sun kinks from the heat, in cold they become brittle. Especially concerened about flat spots on wheels in cold weather.
SEPTA is also having wire problems on some of their regional rail lines and Metro North had a stalled train near Rowayton due to pulled down wires.
NJT claims no problems.LIRR dual modes running on diesel where feasible due to electric power crisis.
I just turned to channel 2 after a movie ended. It seems Hoboken lost power. I hear that people were evacuated from the train because it took them an hour to get it running again. Do NJT Trains need that long to build up air? Also when any kind of Train loses power, Subway, Railroad, etc, does it go into emergency? Because the compressor prolly loses power first. But in the subway, if a Train loses power, the Motorman is supposed to attempt to let it coast to a station. So if a Train loses power, does it go into BIE or does it just slow down?
In the subway (NYC anyway) if the power gets cut off, trains do not automatically go into emergency. The trains will coast along and hopefully get into or close to a station.
If the train has to be stopped, the T/O can use the brake handle to activate the air brakes alone (there should be enough air pressure in the tanks to accomplish this).
If I remeber the airbrake lesson we were treated to some time back, you don't need air to apply the brakes, you need air to release them. No air means the brakes are locked in emergency.
-Hank
That is correct but the air tanks are usually full while a train in motion under power, so if power is lost there is still enough pressure to utilize the brakes and bring the train to a controlled stop.
Because the compressor prolly loses power first.
I'm not familiar with the compressor prolly, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't lose power simultaneously with all the others.
I just turned to channel 2 after a movie ended. It seems Hoboken lost power. I hear that people were evacuated from the train because it took them an hour to get it running again.
Hmm. Despite American Pig's narrow mindedness, thinking he knows everything about electricity, I think you're referring to electric trains (i.e. The Gladstone branch). Most, if not all other rail lines are diesel operated. They run regardless of the electrical status of a station. So, the passengers had to be evacuated from the diesel ones too?
I think the cause of evacuation is there is a possibly of a short-circuit in the area. (And I do NOT appreciate your response to this American Pig, why don't you go tell others the response to this statement?)
Do NJT Trains need that long to build up air?
(Aha, I can see that American Pig doesn't have a problem with THIS question from E to Jamaica Center)
It definitely takes much less than an hour to build up air on NJT trains. Especially the MU's. Their brakes are dynamic with brake pads. (THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THIS AMERICAN PIG) When the emergency brake is pulled, the air compressor does not run, so as the requirement for the handbrake is required. When NJT trains brake normally, the dynamic metal plates on top of the train react as to provide additional braking to the train. (I'll have full details if I can find the e-mail.)
Trains do NOT use air directly to slow down. They use brake pads, just like on subway trains. The air compressor and the air is used to release the brakes and (if) to provide additional braking, or when they apply the emergency brake.
That's it for now..
I apologize for this style of writing, but I've recently been attacked by American pig for his short and minuscule mind about how someone doesn't know anything about electricity, JUST because I asked something about how the third rail of the subway is connected to the power plants.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
Railfan Pete.
Could have been talking about PATH
PATH ran out of electricity on their third rail? Hmm. Interesting but an unheard fact as of today.
Railfan Pete.
I apologize for this style of writing, but I've recently been attacked by American pig for his short and minuscule mind about how someone doesn't know anything about electricity, JUST because I asked something about how the third rail of the subway is connected to the power plants.
The worst thing is idiots who type crap, but then apologize for them in the same post. An apology assumes you wish you've never said or did that for which you're apologizing.
How the hell can you formulate an apology for something that you've never even publicy said yet?
Shows how sincere your "apology" was.
I pity someone like you, who can only be satisfied by mentioning someone's name over and over again in a negative fashion in a post that's a response to someone else's writing.
Well if signals are out can diesel trains still run?
"Well if signals are out can diesel trains still run? "
Sure.... It will keep going until it bumps into something, or runs off the end of a pier.
Elias
Oooo. .. Signals are out too? Signals are the building blocks to getting the trains in and out of large terminal stations with MANY tracks like Hoboken. No trains can run without signals, unless if there was only ONE train, ONE track, and/or ONE track switch, because no crashes are going to happen in this situation.
You still will hear the nice and steady "hum" of the diesel trains (I especially like the GP-40-PH and FH-2's) even if the electric power is out. According to the NJT schedules, which train was the last to pull in or leave Hoboken just before the lights went out?
I know about the LIRR Signal Fire at Penn Station over a year ago and it did SUBSTANCIAL damage to the LIRR's signals. There was smoke (thick at times) in all alleyways and corridors of Penn Sta. NY, and the most heavily affected smoke was coming out from a SUBWAY ENTRANCE! Hmm. Good thing my mom and I (and along with a group of crowds) were the last people to exit Penn Sta. via the 7th Av. Subway exit.
Funny thing, the #1 train that I rode with my mom DID STOP at 34 St. Penn Sta., just to realize that the entire station was filled with light smoke. As I recall, the conductor aboard the #1 downtown local to South Ferry was a very generous and logical one with the announcements and the doors. Thank God we were the last survivors!
Then I guess the diesel trains were stuck in the terminal also. But I wonder about the arriving trains that were about to ENTER HOBOKEN TERMINAL when the lights were all out.. .. .
Any answers? (They will be greatly appreciated.)
Railfan Pete.
I know that the subway cars are made in the Yonkers plant by Kawasaki and in upstate Plattsburgh by Bombardier, but has anyone heard of parts or labor or other production/manufacturing being done in South Carolina??
any help or info would be great! thanks.
I know that the subway cars are made in the Yonkers plant by Kawasaki and in upstate Plattsburgh by Bombardier, but has anyone heard of parts or labor or other production/manufacturing being done in South Carolina??
any help or info would be great! thanks.
I know that the subway cars are made in the Yonkers plant by Kawasaki and in upstate Plattsburgh by Bombardier, but has anyone heard of parts or labor or other production/manufacturing being done in South Carolina??
Not as far as major work is concerned. Kawasaki and Bombardier do the main structural construction in Japan or Quebec respectively, then ship the partially completed carbodies to Yonkers or Plattsburgh for finishing work, in the process complying with made-in-New York requirements.
It's entirely possible, however, that one or even both of the companies use South Carolina subcontractors to make various component parts.
Like the parts to convert them for double-wide trailer use upon the end of their service lives!!! LOL!!!
Like the parts to convert them for double-wide trailer use upon the end of their service lives!!! LOL!!!
Hey, there's the guy in Oregon who converted a non-flying old jet airliner into a house ...
The old Redbirds, being phased out, have four 115hp (from the last overhaul) DC motors, in two trucks, per car. I would like to know how many AC units are in each of the; R-110 A/B, & R-142 A/B cars types? And does anyone know the hp rating of these units? I've read someplace here that the M-7's on the LIRR have a 1000hp AC traction. (Pheww).
Correction: the M-7's, to be phased into the LIRR, will have a 1000hp AC traction in each truck.
Does anybody know what is going on at the Morris Park station on the #5 line in the Bronx?
It looks like they have boarded up a portion of the elevated northbound section and are cutting away at the railing.
I figure they may be building a new staircase to the street level.
But why aren't they doing the same for the southbound side? Or will they?
Thanks.
They are putting up a metal building or shed of some kind on the strip of land adjacent to northbound platform. There are currently 3 (?) concrete supports in place on this strip of land, and the hillside has been smoothly graded, whereas it used to be quite rough.
What the building will be for I don't know. I do know that it will not serve as an entrance to the station for the public. This is according to one of the construction workers on the project.
If it is not an entrance then it will probably be a signal relay room.
Well, CTA has been having some unusual bad luck recently.
1) Aug. 2 -- Flooding due to localized heavy rains shuts down the subway and open-cut (including expressway open-cut) portions of several lines right in the middle of morning rush.
2) Aug. 3 -- Brown Line train smacks into rear of Purple Line train, at the tail end of morning rush.
And now...
3) Today, Aug. 8 -- Truck overturns on Dan Ryan and releases clouds of poisonous fumes; Red Line shut down from 35th to 55th Streets with a bus shuttle inbetween. Right smack in the middle of morning rush.
Anyone want to lay odds on the next "plague" to afflict CTA? :^) An infestation of rats in one or more subway stations isn't too farfetched. During morning rush, of course. :^)
Anyone want to lay odds on the next "plague" to afflict CTA? :^) An infestation of rats in one or more subway stations isn't too farfetched. During morning rush, of course. :^)
An infestation of subtalkers on Aug 31.
On the Long Island Railroad, a contractor (about 30 years ago now) failed to fuel a locomotive which in turn ran out of oil sort of in the middle of nowhere.
So anyway...
my guess is that a chicago subway train will run out of diesel fuel sometime next week brining the city to a stop, and snickers from the rest of the world.
Elias
CTA trains use diesel fuel?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't stretch the imagination too far..a substation might blow up and lose traction power on a section of line..
In that case, they'd just shut the line down and run shuttle busses.
-- David
Chicago, IL
my mom just called from wall street area. 4 and 5 service is out because of power. does this mean the 2 and 3 are out too? This is bad!
Why am I always absent when these things occur? I really would like to experience them.
Well, logically, if the third rail went out of power on the Lexington Av. Express lines, what caused it? The IND and BMT lines are still running.
I wonder how only a section of the third rail can shut off just to eliminate the #4 and #5 from service, where other rail lines, such as the #2 and #3 can connect to these lines, and how the #6 Pelham Line is not affected by the power outage.
The pressing question is, which power plant is used to power the third rail lines running along the #4 and #5? Hmm. What about the #6 Lexington Av. local line? Are they still running?
Is anyone an expert on power sources and plants connecting to third rail lines respond to this type of incident?
Railfan Pete.
Apparently you know nothing about electricity. Maybe you should read a book to learn about them.
All of the subway power comes from the grid. The subway needs to be fed by dedicated high tension lines. Signal and station power comes of the local grid.
WHO ARE YOU? WHAT AUTHORITY DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO BUST SOMEONE'S KNOWLEDGE AMERICAN PIG? I BET YOU'RE AS FAT YOUR NAME ITSELF. IF YOU'RE SO SMART, WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT A GRID IS AND THE NAMES OF THE HIGH TENSION LINES AND THE LOCAL GRID? JUST TO LET YOU KNOW, I DO NOT LIVE IN NY AND HAVEN'T RESEARCHED ANYTHING IN-DEPTH ABOUT THE ELECTRIC POWER FROM THE "GRID". IF YOU'RE SO SMART, WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME EVERY SINGLE GRID THERE IS CONNECTING TO THE SUBWAY? INSTEAD OF JUST RAMBLING YOUR MOUTH ON HOW CALLOW SOMEONE IS?
The "grid" and "high tension lines" are services of Con Ed.
Seth
There are two power distribution systems to be considered here. ConEd's delivery of power to NYCT (I'm sure there are multiple points--substations) and NYCT's distribution of power to the tracks.
If just the 2/3 are out near Wall St, then that sounds like one track section and not a substation. I would think if one of the substations went down, there would be a wider scope to the outtage in the system.
Oh, you said 4/5 are out. Actually, from the 'ghost station' thread, it sounds more like just the station lost power, not the 3rd rail.
Do you know that every subway car have grids a/k/a resistors?
Maybe if you want to make up for your mental inferiority (and inferiority in other departments) with big text, you should at least CLOSE YOUR DAMN HTML!
BTW, you can only get off on insulting my weight, when you don't even know what it is? I don't need to deal with someone as low and petty as you.
CLOSE YOUR FONT TAGS
PS: Where are you when Drain Dude acts this way?
Since I'm computer stupid, how does one go about increasing the size of the text?
Tough to demonstrate here without the tags "vanishing." Look at your keyboard - you need to use the "less than" symbol to start (usually right over the "," character (shift needed) and you "close" a tag with a "greater than" symbol (over the '.' character) ... for the sake of showing, I will instead use ( and ) to demonstrate, but you actually use the less than and greater than:
(FONT SIZE="+6")put whatever big text in here(/FONT) ... that'll get you full "train dude" size ... if you use "view page" (it's up on top of your browser's menu items somewhere) I'll show you here:
WRONG!
Taadaa! (and you can use the same less than, greater than tags around B as in (B) to put bold text in here (/B) or (I) and (/I) for italics. For each tag you open, you need to close it with a / in front of the same tag name at the end or you'll get yelled at for leaving "open tags" ... but that's the game ... exampled again:
This is in italics
And this is BOLD
... enjoy!
Thank you Sel.
You welcome, boss ... so when do we get to see some whizbang? :)
When the time calls for it (which shouldn't be long). Heh.
wow, now THATS intimidation, nice job Pete
What about all those high tension wires that run by most LIRR electric lines? I guess those also energized by subtransmission lines from the grid.
The high tension lines along LIRR tracks aren't neccessarily used for the LIRR. Power companies often run wires along RR ROWs as it is a convenient, available ROW.
Putz, what is your problem? You are always absent when these things occur? Most people would consider themselves lucky to avoid a power outage in the subways. Perhaps you need to be trapped shoulder to shoulder with 3 hundred sweaty people in a 8 foot by 50 foot steel box at 120 degrees with no air flow before you can appreciate the absolute horror that can occur. Then again maybe your one of those that thinks "Gee maybe the ladies will take off their dresses and whoopee"! You really need to grow up if you are not and if you are, seek some help. And before you waste all that time with HTML Tags, like you did with American Pig, yes, I am an expert of sorts and have seen the horror first hand more than once over the last 20 years.
I WAS JUST WANTING TO EXPERIENCE A TRAIN PASSING A STATION THAT HAS A POWER OUTAGE TRAIN DUDE. YOU SAY MOST PEOPLE ARE LUCKY TO AVOID ONE? GUESS YOU ARE JUST ANOTHER WORKER WITH MTA FOR YOUR ENTIRE LIFE AND KNOW AND CARE ABOUT THE SUBWAY THAT YOU WORK FOR? GET A LIFE AND STOP TRYING TO CAUSE A PROBLEM. IF SUBWAYSURF OR OTHER SUBTALKERS POSTED THE SAME POSTING THAT I DID, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT! SO JUST GO ON WORKING ON YOUR SUBWAY AND COME BACK LATER.
There are nice articles on this web site about subway power, I enjoyd them thouroughly, and passed them on to others who like antique power.
The distribution system for the third rails is a separate system formerly operated by the TA ( and it's predecesors) but now sold to Con Ed. I belive the feeder service is 25 cycles AC (vs 60 elsewhere) and there are local converters to make 600v DC out of it for the Third Rail, and the Traction Motors. Apparently this service was not affected by the outage.
The Distribution for the Signal System is always independent, and is usually run off of batteries anyway, though there is normal AC voltage to the system to recharge the batteries, though I am not sure if this system is used in the Subways. Out here in North Dakota, all of the wayside lines have been pulled down in favor of optic fibre which requires AC from MDU (Con Ed doesn't serve us out here). In these areas MDU cannot put its power poles on RR property, but must negeotiate their own row with landowners for access to the railroad. In some places BNSF uses banks of photo-voltaic cells to provide this electricity.
Finally (and the service that appears to have failed) was hotel power to the stations. I was under the impression that stations snitched power from the subway's own grids, but this may have changed with the invention of flourscent lighting, but, be it from Con Ed's normal service, or from the subways distribution system, each station would likely have its own transformers or service drop, a failure of which would not interupt other services.
The "Grid" in the context of this thread reffers to the network and internetworking of Con Ed's lines to provide power where it is needed. On a more Macro View... it would include all of the high tensions transmission lines on the whole east coast, where in utilities such as Con Ed would buy (or perhaps sell) electric power.
Our difficulty here in North Dakota is that we generate more power than what we use, but lack the high transmission capacity to sell it to other regions of the country. This will change. We are also the windiest place in the continetial USA, and would profit greatly from wind farms, if we develop the transmission capacity.
I guess I take after my father, if you ask him the time, he will tell you how to build a clock.
Elias
Historically, the IRT and B[RM]T generated their own power
in several coal-fired steam turbine plants around the city.
Power was 11,000 volts AC, 25 cycles. This high-tension feed
was distributed along the right of way, generally in underground
ducts. A larger number of substations existed which employed
rotary converters to step the 11kV AC down to nominally 600 volts
DC. From each substation, heavy feeder cables ran out to
various points in the sub's zone. The third rail distribution
network was divided into sections a few thousand feet long,
separated by third rail gaps which were larger than the shoe-to-shoe
distance of the worst-case car. Each section has a DC circuit
breaker of about 10,000 amperes or so. That breaker can be tripped
by a dead short circuit, or by someone pulling the emergency
box ("blue light" locations), or from power control. The breaker
can only be reset from power control.
That takes care of the traction power. The subway system has always
required a source of AC power because the signal system's track
circuits need it (it is very tough to run DC track circuits over
a DC electrified railroad, although Boston did it in 1901).
The two private operators also generated a lower AC voltage for
the signal system, I think 2400 volts, again 25 cycles. This
primary signal feeder voltage was stepped down locally with
transfomers to supply the signal system and also to provide
station and tunnel lighting. String-o-5 lighting from the third
rail with a changeover relay was sometimes provided as an emergency
backup, but the primary lighting was always independent of the
traction power so the latter could be turned off without
causing darkness and confusion.
The IND did not elect to generate its own power. It purchased
power from Con Ed, which delivered high-voltage AC (not sure
of the voltage) at 60 cycles (by then the prevailing frequency)
to the substations. The IND used mercury arc rectifiers rather
than rotating converters to generate the 600 VDC, and the DC
distribution was similar to existing practive. Station lighting
and signal power were taken locally from the nearest ConEd
low-voltage AC mains. All IND stations had backup lighting from
the third rail in case of local power failure.
After the city takeover and unification, the private power plants
were sold to Con Ed, and the rotary converters requiring 25 cycles
AC were gradually retired and replaced with solid state units that
could received a high-voltage 60 cy ConEd feed. The DC distribution
system has remained largely untouched.
The signal system, however, is frequency-sensitive. Up to recently,
ConEd has maintained a dedicated source of 25 cy power to feed the
IRT and BMT divisions. ConEd finally announced that it would
discontinue this, and they have been cutting in frequency
converters that take the 60 cycle power off the grid and turn
it into 25 cy to feed back into each signal main section.
This is when they remembered that they have to synchronize the
inverters on the 25 cy side to keep the phase in adjacent
sections matched, but that's probably a bit too technical except
maybe for Dave B.
Interesting
Thank You
Elias
I'm only pointing this out because nobody else has.
I wonder how only a section of the third rail can shut off just to eliminate the #4 and #5 from service, where other rail lines, such as the #2 and #3 can connect to these lines, and how the #6 Pelham Line is not affected by the power outage.
The report said that the power was out at Wall Street on the 4 and 5 (Broadway). Check your map.
(All open markup tags closed)
How can you turn on the light in the bathroom, without turning on all the other lights in the house; how can you leave all the lights on, but turn off only the one in the bathroom?
This has to be the stupidest and most inane post I have read today. I can't BELIEVE you are so naive as to not realize that the power can be turned off in once section without affecting the others.
I suggest you try a new experiment: Get in your fridge, and close the door. Tell me if the light goes out.
If it does, then get out, and leave the door open. Turn on all the other lights in the house, and then close the fridge door. Tell me, did all of your house lights go out?
-Hank
BE CAREFUL!
Now that you've knocked some sense into him, he'll have to respond instinctively with gigantic characters and unclosed HTML.
Hank: I'm still holding my sides on that one. Are you sure we wasn't putting us on? I'm going to think he meant it to come out some other way and we forgot to proofread his work. Ah well, a laugh or two never hurts when going through all the posts.
How can you turn on the light in the bathroom, without turning on all the other lights in the house; how can you leave all the lights on, but turn off only the one in the bathroom?
Believe it on not, I actually do just that (and a lot of other neat stuff like that) with a really neat system called X-10.
X-10 is a carrier based control system that allows individual control of lights and appliances with programable modules that come in both plug-in and hard wired types. Software programs are available that interface with the master controller to allow direct control of lights or upload pre-defined schedules to the controller.
I never come home to a dark house, so when I come home at 10 PM from a hard day with the streetcars (see, on topic), the lights are on.
I was working on the No.2 Line this afternoon and heard nothing about a power outage but It was an eventfull day.
At 12:30PM a Northbound No.2 went BIE entering Eastern Parkway.
At 4PM a track fire North of E Tremont Ave. I was held at 174 St with an R142. I had 2 hot cars 6345,9174
I will be working again on the No.2 Line Thursday evening.
I was on the 2 line today as well. All Rebirds, all the time. I had 9174 on my last trip up to WP. Yes that car was hot. This was my "on" side as well. Things get better today. Im on the 7. I cant wait to get a car with AC. WHOOPEE!!!!!:):)
You need to check out some traffic/transit reports for yourself. There was no service at the Wall Street station on the Lex due to a power failure. Trains were running, skipping Wall St.
-Hank
Trains on the (4) and (5) lines didn't stop at the Wall Street station. Everything is dark there, except for the signals. The MVM's, the token booths, and the station lights were all dark.
That explains why the circuit breakers which provide light to the platform ONLY could individually shut off.
Did you see any tunnel lights that were on in the area?
I wonder why the signals didn't shut off. Probably it was on a separate circuit breaker, or it used a type of backup generator.
Meanwhile, the #4 and #5 still have third rail power, while they're bright subway lights can light the platform while passing by it. I've been to Wall St. on the Lexington Av. lines a few times. But I don't know how that will help pertaining to this problem. Probably if the station had some ventilation openings, the bright daylight could flood the platform with light.
Railfan Pete.
When my train rode past Wall street it Reminded me of old photo's of 18th street and 91st street
Anyone have any idea as to why Wall Street is dark, as pointed out by other ST'ers? I don't think the MTA will close it permanently. That would make no sense.
Why would the MTA close Wall street.That place is like a landmark
Why would the MTA close Wall street.That place is like a landmark
They wouldn't. What happened today was some sort of power problem that darkened the station and required its temporary closing. That's the key word, "temporary."
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. That happened a couple of years ago at Bergen Street on the #2 actually. A utility crew cut a underground power line by mistake.
Trains on the (4) and (5) lines didn't stop at the Wall Street station. Everything is dark there, except for the signals. The MVM's, the token booths, and the station lights were all dark.
Maybe everyone's too upset about Cisco's revenue warning ...
Since when does the diamond Q (or any Broadway line, for that matter) go to the Bronx?
Where is the photo? :p
Chaohwa
>> Where is the photo? :p <<
DeKalb Ave.
We've discussed this, where the hell were you? It's a misprint, it's supposed to be a D.
And I wonder how you expect Netscape users to be able to see your picture?
And I wonder how you expect Netscape users to be able to see your picture?
When Netscape recognizes the iframe tag as IE does.
They do. Use Netscape 6.1.
I use IE and I see nothing ...
Hmm. Probably a mistake on one of the NYCT's boards. Also, the rollsign on that R68 train had not been changed since the Q went into service. The B and D trains still operate to the Manhattan and the Bronx, but terminate at 34 St. not Coney Island.
For a substitution, they should have put the orange color B and D trains, because the diamond Q terminates at 57th St. - 7th Av.
Great photo.
1) Where was the station that you took this picture of?
2) What car number is that that hasn't changed its rollsign yet.
Answers and info. will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The picture was taken on July 20th.
I suggest you get yourself some decent webhost that will allow you to remote-request images.
-Hank
Do u know any where I can do it for free?
"Free" and "Decent Webhost" are usually exclusive terms...
Have you considered your own ISP?
-Hank
Email me and I'll send you a recommendation. I'm not going to post it publicly.
Photopoint does for WebTV users ...
This was reported here when those signs first went up.
It's pretty clear what happened. First, those signs were replaced. Then, somebody went around from station to station, replacing D's with Q's, and went a bit overboard. Indeed, that erroneous Q is just a stick-on, covering up a D.
That's obviously a mistake.
I read about that in the Daily News. I sincerely hoped they fixed it, or people at Coney Island will end up at... Coney Island! Changing from the (Q) to the < Q > at 57th will just take you back downtown! LOL! I fixed it. Hope you don't mind.
Go here.
I'll take some liberty and vote a married pair. R32's 3422/23 assigned to Jamaica. Over the course of my stay on the E, these cars were part of consists of trains which had BIE's numerous times. I'm sure these were checked in the barn, but if a car has BIE once in a while with no cause found and the respective barn has over 1000 cars assigned, it get lost in the shuffle. It has happened at various locations no matter where this pair is in the consist. 3 times that I know of (and I'm sure many many time I was not aware of), 3422 was in the lead of a n/b E train and went BIE entering Continental. I don't have to worry about it anymore since I no longer work there, but I hated to see these cars in a train which I had to operate. Too many coincidences!
strangely enough-- i was riding 3422 on the B--my memory's a little unclear, but it must have been 1987-88, pre-GOH and the TO took it out of service at 14th (i think). i was going out to the beach at coney and ended up trading down for a set of r42's on the Q. maybe we have a lemon here.
others:
#6316 (r16) this was the only r16 i ever rode, it was in the last days of the 16's and they sent one trainset out to the RR to die. i got it somewhere in manhattan to go to 30th-grand and i doubt it broke 20 mph the whole way. plus it was the middle of summer + must have been over 100 degrees in the car.
#4242 (r40) i rode this on the B in 1987 just before the GOH. there were holes in the floor by the motorman's cab, and when it got out onto the Manhattan bridge, you got two vistas for the price of one--out the window, and through the floor.
Car 8875 on the 5.That car is like a furnance in the summer.I also don't like car 2091 on the Franklin avenue S.
2091 is an IRT car, assigned to the #3 I believe. The Franklin shuttle fleet is #2916 to 2924.
hmmm thats a tough question. Well i do hate Redbirds with the Westinghouse controllers!! like 9456 i believe thats one on the 7. The only westinghouses i like are on the R62A/R68A subway cars
The car I dislike the Most is CAR #2320 on the No.1/9 Line
Hears what happened the 4 times it was my operating car and 1 time as a Passenger.
1. Had to cut out a slow closing door in car 2320
2. Had no Intercom the second time I had that car and a low batterery and there was No service do to a police action. It was hard trying to communicate with my T/O
3. Someone spit at me and missed
4. Someone hit me with an unknown liquid
5. While off duty riding the train the train went out of service do to the Conductors vaper key got stuck in the Master door control.
3. Someone spit at me and missed
What's the problem? He missed.
Does anyone have any information on the lower level of Nevins street like which door is it behind or something that I might need If I can get acess down there?
If you need access to it you won't be trespassing. Do your self a favor and don't try it.
I urge everyone else not to give the location of the entrance to this platform because you will just be promoting illegal activity. It is obvious no permission from the MTA has been granted. Believe me- I work at the TA and no none was given.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
none- not no none
This is the first I have heard of the lower level of Nevins street. What is down there? Since it is an IRT station, it could not be part of the "second System". Was there a plan at one time for additional IRT lines in that area???
I would appreciate any info.............
It was built in before the 4th Ave. line was awarded to the BRT by the dual contracts and was a provision for IRT access to this line.
Well, you can't exactly access it, but... see this post for info on how you can cross it (without realizing it) and probably see it as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those louvers in the door you mention have been replaced by a solid piece of metal. You can't peek in anymore.
--Mark
any rumors about r110 r142 r143 or r160
R160's.Never heard
I 've seen redbirds on the 7 line last year when i was on vacation. No red birds on the #3#4#5or 6 OR 2
R110's:
No further update. The T/A doesn't have a plan to scrap or to get rid of them. I think they're still in use in their relative subway lines.
R142's:
You may have heard this numerous times before. The R142's are initially assigned to the #2 and #6 lines for FULL-TIME SERVICE.
There are 13 trais on the #2 line for service as we speak, and I believe it's pretty much the same with the #6 line. NO R142's are found on the #3 and #5 just yet, but we'll see what the T/A's final proposal is going to be.
There are proposals which could fill the #3 and #5 lines as well with R142's, but it is NOT OFFICIALLY COMFIRMED for FULL-TIME SERVICE on these two lines. The #3's R62(A) type cars will retire out ahead of their time onto the #7 Flushing line, also the #5's R62(A)'s [although Redbirds OUTNUMBER the amount of R62A's on the #5] will fill in for the Flushing line service.
R143:
Not even a full trainset is in service I don't think. These are built and manufactured by Kawasaki Ind., and seldom are used as cars on the L - Canarsie line. I have only seen #8180 in PHOTOS on this website on a carriage in a yard, but only two cars are out for service. (Sorry I don't know the car #'s)
R160:
No affirmed proposal as of yet.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
This is the first I'm hearing of the r160. Do you have some information on them (not about if they're going to be deployed, but like design specs and pictures)? Also why did they skip from 142 to 160, what happened to all the numbers in between?
The R-160 is the follow-on order to the R-143. It is for 660 60-foot BMT-IND cars, arranged in four-car and five-car sets, to replace all R-38 and slant R-40 cars as well as the 110 R-42s that were overhauled by Coney Island Shop and the 10 R-32s that were overhauled by General Electric. The contract has not yet "hit the street," though a contract for a consultant to monitor final design work by the winning carbuilder (as well as quality control at the factory, etc.) is currently out for bid.
The R-143 (in answer to the second question, which was about the "missing" car class numbers between R-142 and R-160) is an order for 212 60-foot BMT-IND cars, most of which are slated for L line service. They will be equipped to work with the L line's new CBTC signal system.
I don't have a complete list of the other car classes numbered higher than R-142, but I can say that R-146 is for snow throwers (not all of the numbers are used for passenger-carrying equipment).
David
R-110a is not in service. it is being held at pitkin yard. r-110b is not in service either. do not know whats up with that one. R-143 is still in testing. (heard its not doing to well but, thats new equipment for you) should be in testing around october, november time.
There are proposals which could fill the #3 and #5 lines as well with R142's, but it is NOT OFFICIALLY COMFIRMED for FULL-TIME SERVICE on these two lines. The #3's R62(A) type cars will retire out ahead of their time onto the #7 Flushing line, also the #5's R62(A)'s [although Redbirds OUTNUMBER the amount of R62A's on the #5] will fill in for the Flushing line service.
Next time, before you post misinformation, make sure you know what you're talking about.
I'll wait for Train Dude to pick apart your post.
eh-heh. buddy boy. Train dude may work for the MTA Subway and all but doesn't mean he is part of the conference meetings and ongoing projects in the MTA's Meeting Room.
Railfan Pete.
...and you are?
Peace,
ANDEE
I was responding to American Pig, where did you come from? Would you like to join in the discussion?
Railfan Pete.
As Old Tom said, You have a great knack for posting pure BS as fact, you should consider a career in advertising.
Peace,
ANDEE
What do you know about the subway? ANDEE I'm not going to be a career in advertising. The facts that I have posted are straight from my experience AND MOSTLY FROM THE GRUMBLING AND COMPLAINING SUBTALKERS TALKING ABOUT THOSE R142's ON THE FLUSHING (WHICH IS NOT TRUE), and the R142(A)'s on the #3 and #5 lines idiot.
Railfan Pete.
>>>What do you know about the subway? <<<
Well, judging by your posts, a lot more than you.
Peace,
ANDEE
UHu hu h uh hh h h , oK. If you think you know so much more than I do, re-explain the R110, R142, R143, and R160's by yourself. Then I'll consult the Conference Tables of the MTA and see if you are accurate.
Rallfan Pete.
I have nothing to prove to you and will not waste bandwidth doing so.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok, then. And you say you know more than me. Judging by the way you spoke, you had better not be a bum in the street riding the subway everyday and thinking like an amateur expert about it. The clue is, what do you do for a living?
Railfan Pete.
I'm a bum in the street and I ride around with my laptop making posts to aggravate know it all foamers like yourself.
Peace,
ANDEE
What do you do for a living?
I just told you all I'm going to tell you.
Peace,
ANDEE
That rings a bell.
so degrading to youreself
I prefer rumor, creative dreams and wishful thinking myself.
THEE pipeline has it that the R/110A and 110Bs are to be stashed in the Phantom 76th St. Station on a stormy night. Under the cover of lightning, thunder, darkness and very heavy rain the R/110As are to be stealthily removed from the Pitkin Yard and entombed beneath the outermost streets of Brooklyn and the inner most streets of southwest Queens.
This weekend promises rotten weather. BEWARE!
Next, we'll have to have the R110Bs relocated to the Pitkin Yard...
for storage.
Now, isn't that better than bickering?
avid
So you take rumors for granted? I was responding to SUBWAYSURF.
Railfan Pete.
Sense of humor?
Seth
>>>Sense of humor? <<<
Obviously, "Railfan Putz" has none.
Peace,
ANDEE
Obviously you have none either SUBWAYSURF. Since you would never tell me what you do for a living. WHY won't you tell me? Something you wouldn't want the public to know?
Pete, he's discussed it a number of times on this board before... search back in the archives for threads on elevators (no, he doesn't work with elevators, but that's one group of threads where I remember him mentioning what he does). And it's quite honorable, I assure you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Subwaysurf doesn't want to take to Railfan Putz, I don't blame him.
It's like talking to a pile of turd.
I guess that his new nickname is 'Railfan Putz'. Wow. I never thought it would catch on that quickly....
LOL....
Peace,
ANDEE
ah come on there there cars not a little kids story book
ah come on there subway cars not a little kids story book
I wish the TA designed another special car fleet for the 7.
We are a special line.
Careful with the usage of the word "special." It can also be used in the following context: "You´re not different Billy, you´re special, that´s why you ride the short bus."
Isn´t the 7 using ten car trains now? Short bus, short train. Hmmmm... :)
-Rob, reporting from Sao Paulo, Brasil. I think the girls in really tight pants down here are starting to get to me.
I think the girls in really tight pants down here are starting to get to me.
Glad to see they're actually wearing some. From the pictures I've seen of the Brazilian beaches, I wasn't sure :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went to a few beaches here last weekend, and it was a glorious view of the ocean.
And I also took 4 rolls worth of pictures of the SP Metro. More on that upon my return on Sunday.
R110's:
No further update. The T/A doesn't have a plan to scrap or to get rid of them. (I think they're still in use in their relative subway lines)-the 110Bs are being rebuilt at 207th shops - the 110As are awaiting an unknown fate at Pitkin shops
R142's:
(also the #5's R62(A)'s)The five does run an occasional R62a train but the 7 will get 62as from the 6
R143's:
(Not even a full trainset is in service I don't think.), you are correct there, they are still being tested
Ive heard for a long time that philly had plans for further construction and expansion of the broad street subway but they were only to reach the planning stages and some partially constructed in lieu of the depression. I was wondering, does anyone know of these plans and what they entailed? are there any websites that have info? Ive heard that there were to be branches to the northwest and northeast of olney as well as lines in south east philly. can anyone add to this? thanks in advance.
matt
The City's Planning Commission is studying rapid transit to the Far Northeast, primarily via Roosevelt Blvd, although one corridor follows the CSX Trenton Line (ex-Reading New York Short Line). The proposals include heavy or light rail extending from the Broad St Subway north of Erie (yes, light rail in the subway - high platform cars with dual methods of current collection). At least one idea has an extension of the Frankford El to a new transfer station in the vicinity of the Blvd/Bustleton/Levick intersection.
This may be pie in the sky since NE residents don't necessarily want the extension (they've successfully fought such before) and the price tag of $2-3 billion is a bit much given the other transit and transportation needs of the region.
I believe there is a website for the study but I don't know it. You might want to see if either septa.com or phila.gov has a link to it.
Here's the website that describes the project: http://www.libertynet.org/netis. Follow the link "The Short List" for a pdf file which explains all the options in detail.
The light rail option was dropped several months ago by a unanimous vote of the board that is making the decisions. This leaves as the "build options" a plan for a subway under Roosevelt Boulevard, an open trench route with an expressway along the same route, or the Short Line route.
As for what residents want, there was a public meeting on the matter held on May 30th. I was out of town and could not attend, so I still have no idea what opinions were voiced there. If anyone knows anything about what people said, fill me in.
Mark
How many accidents car 1391 been in?
At last count, 14 since May 1943. That's just 14 in 58 years which is not a bad record.
What type of car is 1391? And when was it's last accident? Is it a museum car?
Thanks
R62 in its present inCARnation ... there was an R6 which bore that car number once. It had its own issues ... but the IRT clone of that car number has had a NUMBER of mishaps over its short life.
At least two that I know about.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Actually the second incident didn't directly involve #1391 - that car was at the opposite end of the train when its rear car (#1400) got hit by a wayward Redbird (#8981) at WAKEFIELD Yard Lead on 3 February 1998. #1400 had his bonnet cracked and his clock cleaned, plus his anticlimber was mashed pretty good; I think they've fixed him by now.
As we all know, #1391 bears a black floor due to an incendiary device being set off in her in December 1994(?).
wayne
I know all about the incendiary incident back in 1994. I saw car #1391 afterwards and it looked usually clean in addition to have ridden on it.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Well, since there is now an informal survey of favorite subway car numbers, how about favorite PCC streetcar number(s) as well too???
For my favorites, I will start from the west then go eastward (and all are four-digits at best):
San Francisco #1040 (1952) - Of all the design's domestic-built vehicles, this was the PCC I had to ride. I was able to get so much mileage in terms of rides and photographs while I was in San Francisco during that memorable summer in 1985 for that city's "Trolley Festival".
Pittsburgh #1737 (1949) - I always wanted to ride a real geniune, unrebuilt PCC in the Steel City with its original style side "blinker" doors, and I was lucky enough to do so and photograph my first one on the 47D Drake Shuttle in August 1993 right toward Drake Loop.
Pittsburgh #4009 (1990 rebuilt) - Sort of a improv fantrip for myself occurred in which I was able to ride even around the deadhead loop at Castle Shannon in August 1995. The operator was nice enough to have a picture of myself taken next to the car at Drake Loop.
Philadelphia #2171 (1948) - Of all the PCC's I ever rode in my lifetime in that city, this unit gets the prize of a real great ride that operated on such real rough trackage via the #56/Erie-Torresdale route back in July 1987. This PCC's shock absorbers were really working very good that day.
-William A. Padron
This is getting &*^T*& rediculous.
What's your favorite stretch of sidewalk?
What's your favorite glue to sniff?
What tastes better, stamp glue or envelope glue?
Which envelope's glue tastes better, #10 or the kind you get with a Hallmark card?
-Hank
Hank, if you want to stump them just ask, "What's your favorite school bus number"? Bet they all draw a blank....
"What's your favorite school bus number"?
Steve, even though Hank didn't ask, I'll answer: 34 - the one that took my children to school every day for many years :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
... not our resident "Traffic and Weather Together" guy! Remember - he DROVE a school bus for a number of years!
--Mark
He STILL has a valid CDL and will drive anything with rubber tires or steel wheels ... a mentor to us all !
Mr t__:^)
Hank, if you want to stump them just ask, "What's your favorite school bus number"? Bet they all draw a blank....
666
They all have that number.
In the interests of full disclosure ...
What's your favorite stretch of sidewalk?
Belt Pkwy bike path between Bay Pkwy & the 69th St pier.
What's your favorite glue to sniff?
Faller plastic cement. Smells great! Great applicator, too. No-mess when creating those masterpieces for my train layout.
What tastes better, stamp glue or envelope glue?
Envelope glue, especially if the envelope fell out of Elle magazine :)
Which envelope's glue tastes better, #10 or the kind you get with a Hallmark card?
I have not used enough #10 envelopes to properly analyze this question.
Sorry - it's HOT and it's very late :)
--Mark
What's your favorite glue to sniff?
I like Testor's. I got used to it when I was assembling all those plastic buildings for my train set. That rubber cement that came in the metal can with the brush (you could roll it into little balls and bounce them off people) wasn't bad either.
wayne
Now, now, Hank! Wm.A.Padron is a respected and esteemed member of our community, the champion of the R-10, in fact. His question is an interesting one.
My 2 cents worth: WMATA (DC Transit) PCC 1105; and Newark PCCs 21 and 6.
wayne
Since Wayne-MrSlant40 gave the proper answer to the estimated Wm. A. Padron's question, let me add my personal choice: 7407.
The PCC pride & joy of America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum.
Favourite PCC car: 4613 because it was the first PCC I ever operated.
-Robert King
There are so few places that you can still ride these grand ladies still in revenue service !
My first "trolley" was a PCC, Dallas Car version in Boston. Now just a few cars (not the Dallas car type though) & a short line remain there.
Newarks' cars are almost gone, I'm going to do one more trip on them.
And one of the days I'm going to get to Kenosha to ride there's. I also can't wait for Bob Diamond & friends to get his group going for real in Brooklyn.
Mr t__:^)
My fav PCC would be BERA's #1001 w/o a doubt.
She rides sweet!
BMTman
That's the one that I have the picture in the book of in service on the B75 SMITH STREET line. That was 1936. I'll bet she rides just as well today as she did back then. Those PCCs are absolutely indestructible.
wayne
[I'll bet she rides just as well today as she did back then (1936). Those PCCs are absolutely indestructible.]
The "ride" is still very good, but we have had to give her a little TLC now and then so future generations can experience the same pleasure. A fellow SubTalker has put in quite a bit of time on her to fix a electrical problem. Mark your calendar for "Autumn in New York" at Branford when she'll strut her stuff (this year it will be Sept. 29th & 30th). BTW, she & PCC look-a-like #8, a Red Arrow/Brilliner from Philly were out in June for a prade of equipment from the Century, and just before it turned.
Mr t__:^)
I stand corrected on the route number that PCC 1001 is showing: it is B68 SMITH STREET - PARK ROW. No doubt via Bklyn Bridge.
wayne
AMEN !!!!!!!!!
I'd have to say Chicago's Green Hornet 4391, the only survivor of its kind. It's at IRM in Union, intact and operational. I saw it in 1996, but it wasn't running that day. Unlike other PCCs, it has rear entrance doors, something the CSL president insisted on.
So it has 3 sets of doors (front, center, rear) or two (f & r) ?
Or is it another version of the "Dallas Cars". i.e. double end opns ?
Got a photo ?
Mr t__:^)
My favorite was of course NYTA 1000, the original, then the ones on the Glendale-Burbank line on PE and last the 3100 series of the LALT/MTA Narrow gage cars in LA. I also like the 1001-series of SF Muni Double enders
1000 still lives at TMNY. Send $ and maybe we can get it running again. It needs paint, some interior work and seat repairs. The biggest item needing work is the control group. It didn't fare when it was stored outside with its covers missing in the salt air at Coney Island for a spell in the 70's-80's. Fortunately, with its aluminum body, rust is not a problem.
Chicago's postwar Green Hornets had triple rear entrance doors, a single center exit, and two front exit doors. The prewar Blue Geese as delivered had triple front entrance doors, double center exit doors, plus a single rear exit door. In 1952, they were all converted to one-man operation, during which time one center exit door was sealed off. 4021 at IRM still has this configuration; you can still see where the second center exit door was. The space for the door engines is still there.
I like SEPTA 2785.
Here's a photo:
http://members.aol.com/jonsenk/PCC2785queenlane.JPG
Jon S.
Philadelphia Transportation Page
http://members.aol.com/jonsenk
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/08/nyregion/08TRAN.html
I saw the article. I think it is driving by two factors:
1) The die off or move out of those who scorned mass transit, and their replacement by immigrants/yuppies who do not.
2) Job growth in Manhattan, and areas near it, which had previously lost jobs. In these areas, you really have not choice but to use transit, unless you are very rich, and wake up very early.
Still, there were 42,939 more vehicles registered NYC in 2000 than in 1999, that's a 2.1% increase. A sign of a reasonably healthy economy. More cars for lesiure, but not for commuting. The immigrant factor is reflected in the relatively small increase in vehicles registered in Brooklyn and Queens.
** 1999: vehicle registrations **
Bronx 260,742
Brooklyn 479,118
Manhattan 247,395
Queens 773,921
Staten Island 240,258
NYC TOTAL 2,001,434
** 2000: vehicle registrations **
Bronx 268,910
Brooklyn 486,987
Manhattan 255,780
Queens 784,848
Staten Island 247,848
NYC TOTAL 2,044,373
** 2000: % increase in vehicle registrations **
Bronx 3.1%
Brooklyn 1.6%
Manhattan 3.4%
Queens 1.4%
Staten Island 3.2%
NYC 2.1%
(source - http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/regin2000.htm)
Still, there were 42,939 more vehicles registered NYC in 2000 than in 1999, that's a 2.1% increase. A sign of a reasonably healthy economy. More cars for lesiure, but not for commuting. The immigrant factor is reflected in the relatively small increase in vehicles registered in Brooklyn and Queens.
And these figures understate auto ownership and use, given the infamous propensity of many city residents to drive unregistered/uninsured vehicles.
The past week riding the J line makes me wonder:
Last Thursday: Got my usual 16:30 J out of Broad 4 minutes late at Fulton. Crawled to Essex where I noticed a discharged M train on Center track. Train is packed to Marcy, where it is then sent local to Myrtle. Train arrives at Myrtle 10 minutes late at the same time the 16:40 J does, on the express track. Trains then idle for 3 minutes while confused J riders wonder which train will leave first. The tower's solution: Run the J on the local track nonstop to Eastern Parkway, holding the J on the center track for another 5 minutes. But the conductor on the local track J makes this announcement AS HE CLOSES THE DOORS! Of course confusion reigns as people on the express track J rush to get on the local track J. Train is held up for another 5 minutes as people are told that the train on the local track will run express, and the train on the express track will run local. Needless to say I arrived home 25 minutes late.
The easy logical thing to do was to simply run the local J as a normal train (it was packed with more riders, and it was assumed by all that it would leave first) while running the express J down the middle track to Eastern Parkway to fill the massive gap in front of this whole mess. Non-revenue trains using the middle track cannot be used as an excuse for not doing this, as the track was completely empty all the way to ENY.
Monday: Got to Fulton St. at 16:27 expecting my usual 16:30 J from Broad St. I see 3 M trains pull in and out of Fulton before a J arrives at 16:44. Of course, it's packed to capacity before reaching Canal St. Train runs normal to Myrtle, where an M is just arriving (practically empty). What does the genius who runs the Myrtle Ave. tower do? Holds the J and allows the M to leave first!
Today: Got the 16:40 J 4 minutes late at Fulton. Delays on the M force the J to go local after Marcy, at least I thought as the conductor made the announcement that the train would be making all stops at Marcy. Arrive at Myrtle 7 minutes late as an M train running express pulls in at Myrtle at the same time. Why on earth would you run an already late J local when an M was right behind the %$#@$^ J train?
Venting mode: OFF
What about taking the A..., would that facilitate matters in the future? I hope it's not those off-the-street workers...
Frankly, those monk... I mean TA personnel have been making poor decisions as well. Tuesday I was at Times Sq waiting for either N/W, but had to wait for 3 circle Qs, 3 diamond Qs and 2 Rs before a R68 N pulled in. The heat down there at the station gave me an unwanted steam room treatment and my shirt got soaked in the process (I was wearing shorts). If they could just send a few of those largely empty Qs to Astoria it would have been great. I don't want to take the #7 from there.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!
E_DOG
Here is the problem. The people who run the TA, for the most part are not passengers. I relate all this to a problem that existed in the NYPD many years ago. Most of the cops were policing neighborhoods they could not relate to, because these officers lived in the suburbs, and could not relate to the people.
The same is true in the TA. Except in this case, the people running it are not passengers, so they don't care about our needs.
Really, these TA employees need sensitivity training. Take T/O'
s, conductors, tower operators, and other TA personnel, and just make them wait 10 or 15 minutes for a train, and then cram them ALL INTO ONE cattle car of a subway train. Make them feel what it's like!
Or, even better! MAKE ALL TA PERSONNEL TAKE MASS TRANSIT TO WORK FOR ONE MONTH STRAIGHT! Maybe then, you'll see some changes, after these TA employees get to experience some real life situations like we do.
"Here is the problem. The people who run the TA, for the most part are not passengers."
This is a statement that has popped up in the press every once in a while for years and years. Unless the press has access to the Metrocard serial numbers of top NYCT officials and has them run through a Metrocard computer to determine use, there is no way to prove this statement...and the press was making this claim LONG before Metrocard came along or was even in the proposal stage.
I am a manager for NYCT. I ride the trains to and from work on a regular basis, and on many weekends as well. I also ride the buses on occasion (I live close to a subway line). On August 7, 2001, I was on a southbound Q local train that got diverted via the Sea Beach Line because of a power problem on the Brighton Line. It took me half an hour out of my way, but eventually I did get home. Does that qualify as 'feeling what it's like' to be a passenger?
Many, if not most, NYCT employees, managerial or otherwise, use the system to get to and from work, whether as their entire journey or as part of a longer trip that also involves (say) commuter rail. They're not all in uniform when they do so, and therefore it is impossible for a lay person to claim with any certainty that NYCT employees don't use the system.
David
<<<>>>
I hope you really don't believe that. The % of TA employees who rely solely on subway and buses to and from work must be less than 25%.
Especially employees who work out of Jamaica Center, 179, Continental, Coney Island, or any outer borough location. However, if you are in a managerial position, and work in Manhattan or Downtown Brooklyn, then it makes sense to use the subway to and from work.
"I hope you really don't believe that. The % of TA employees who rely solely on subway and buses to and from work must be less than 25%."
Prove it, or stop saying it. Nothing personal here -- this is what I say to anyone who posts something here that cannot be substantiated.
David
You got it buddy. I'll be back with a response in about one week.
I'll be looking forward to it. By the way, in order to be valid, this cannot simply be a survey of a few NYCT employees. It must be an official count of NYCT employees who ride mass transit to get to/from their jobs -- as I said, the only way to get this is to obtain Metrocard records. These records would have to be correlated against each employee's sign-on location and work program (since employees responsible for moving trains and most of their supervisors tend to enter through the turnstiles at a subway station, and Bus Operators have to dip their passes each time they take over a bus in order to identify themselves to the farebox). Frankly, I don't think a week is going to be enough time.
David
If you select 50 employees at random, then the results of the survey will provide a reasonable estimate (within 10%) with 95% confidence. That averages out to 42 minutes to analyze the records for each employee.
Fine...I'll accept that. However, those fifty "random" employees cannot all be in one work location/reporting location. They must be truly random.
David
In any case... since you're a TA employee, and you say that the survey could be done with Metrocard records... why doesn't the TA ever publish the true statistic to refute all the press claims?
The press claims are probably greatly exaggerated, but I put it to the public relations manager at the TA to publish a statistical aggregate of the official Metrocard records to refute all the "rumor" claims.
I haven't actually seen it reported in the press in a while. Perhaps there hasn't been a need to refute the statement lately. Besides, the press is under no obligation to report such a refutation should it be issued, and who's to say it would be believed if reported anyway?
David
There is a difference between the newspaper reports and what was stated here on Subtalk. The press claims that the 'people who run NY Mass transit' don't ride it to work. You really have to understand what that statement means. It means that less than 25% of the TA executives and the MTA Board members actually commute via bus and subway. This is probably true since they have official cars at their disposal and parking spaces in the garage at Jay Street. Can this be defended? I suppose a case can be made for either side but it does not change the facts that most do not ride to and from work via bus and subway.
Now the question is do they actually run the busses and subways. I think it is far more important and significant that the line managers and first line supervisors ride every day. General Superintendents, Superintendents and Deputy Superintendents are responsible & accountable for the day to day operations of their lines, shops etc. It is more important that they see where connections are made or missed, cars are maintained properly or not, or stations are clean and manned or not. I can say without fear of contradiction that a very large percentage of managers do ride the system on a daily basis and view their lines, their cars and their stations through both the eyes of a manager and the eyes of a customer. That's why train crews and tower operators are critiqued on their operation. That's why cars with minor, otherwise unnoticable defects, are called out of service before they become real problems. That's why small problems in stations are addressed before they become complaints.
My question to you is which has more impact, Larry Reuter riding the F train every morning and afternoon to and from Jay Street or the line & station managers out in the field on every line, every day?
My question to you is which has more impact, Larry Reuter riding the F train every morning and afternoon to and from Jay Street or the line & station managers out in the field on every line, every day?
I think Larry Reuter is more important. First, he can make sure that the managers ride every day. Second, if there is benefit to getting a first person perspective for line managers (which you appear to believe) then the same principle applies to the executives. By extension, I'd require the MTA Board members to go slumming as well.
I used to be a schedule manager for a transit authority in Scotland. I used to ride the trains to work every day -- 45 mins ride. I used to note down the minor problems and regulation errors (when the trains were sent in the wrong order) and bring them to the attention of my bosses or try to do something about it myself if it were within my responsibility and/or authority.
My contract was not renewed at the end of that year.
Lexcie
Ok, just admit it, you're not really a human being, you're simply a bored NASA supercomputer with nothing to do since the Cold War ended, right? I've never met anyone on the internet so in love with mathematical equations ...
lol
Since not all employees swipe through the turnstile, even that data will be skewed.
I have made some cracks about the TA because of their treatment of the Sea Beach, but it occurred to me that my website buddy Train Dude works for the TA, and that sharp guy from Maspeth (whose name slips me now) is also an employee of the TA. Perhaps we should say who specifically we want to aim our darts at because I don't want to see any going Dude's way.
""I hope you really don't believe that. The % of TA employees who rely solely on subway and buses to and from work must be less than 25%.
Especially employees who work out of Jamaica Center, 179, Continental, Coney Island, or any outer borough location. However, if you are in a managerial position, and work in Manhattan or Downtown Brooklyn, then it makes sense to use the subway to and from work.""
Why is this necesarily true? For a couple of summers through h.s. I volunteered at the New York Aquarium, pretty close to that "far-outer-borough" Coney Island terminal. And I took the F to work there every day. Why wouldn't an MTA person do the same?
You are obviously oblivious to everything, and must be pretty incompetant to make a statement like that.
1. Do you actually know TA employees personally? Only 25%, eh? Well, I know only one TA employee personally. However, through him, I know that many employees ride the system, even if it's only during work hours. They know what it's like. Maybe some of the brass doesn't, but I'd say that at least twice the amount of what you suggest ride the subway on a regular basis.
2. Working way out in the Boroughs is more of a reason to ride transit to work than it is to drive a car.
I could understand if you had some sort of tangible evidence to support your opinion, even something like you knew a worker who always drove to work, and most workers are like him. But, you have no evidence of the sort, this is just another one of these crappy opinion posts in which you personally feel that workers never ride the subway. I have the same stand as David on this one, get some facts. I have a feeling that the facts will not back you up on this one.
Incompetant? If you're going to try to put me in my place, at least learn how to spell.
Do I actually know TA employees personally? Of course. Why do you think I made such a statement.
Working out in the boroughs is more of a reason to take public transit? Explain!
As I said, I will present facts to back up my claim.
And why are you responding as though I am attacking you personally? Your response is a little too serious, don't you think?
It all depends on where the employee resides. If one lives out in Long Island, Westchester, etc., then that person is highly unlikely to use the subway. The chances are also a little low for those living in Staten Island. I do know a couple of people that do use mass transit in SI, but they are IMO in a small minority.
Employees living in the other 4 boroughs are most likely (I'd estimate around 65-70%) going to use the subway simply because it is convenient and closeby. I live in Queens and use mass transit daily.
It also depends on when and where you have to report. Currently, I take Transit to work three out of five days and drive the other two. On the weekends, I drive to Stillwell from Staten Island because it's only 25 minutes away - by mass transit the same trip would have me leaving home at 0540 for an 0800 report. Two days I report to Queensbridge -travel time by car and mass transit is about the same, so I become a 'passenger'. Why should I pay tolls and parking and wear and tear when I don't have to? The same applies for my fifth day at 34 St - mass transit is actually faster, taking only an hour door-to-tower.
In general, before coming to work for Transit, I rode the subways five days a week from Sept 1976 when I started going to high school. I have been stuck on trains for hours, been re-routed all over the system, had trains stop running during snow storms, forcing me to walk the better part of a mile home. All this and what did I do - I came to work for them. Now I can get yelled at, spit at, insulted and you know what? IT DON"T MAKE A DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE! I don't run the system, I can't make changes to it - all I can do is deal with what the system throws at me, just like you do. The people you always yell at in person are absolutely powerless to fix the problems you complain about. So, in the future, instead of complaining about us, take down the car number and the time and place of the incident and WRITE A LETTER (not email or phone calls). Explain the situation and ask why that particular course of action was taken. If enough people actually document the probelms on a line, you might possibly get something changed. However, if Transit doesn't know about a problem they can't fix it.
I know many people who work for NYCTA, management and staff alike, and ALL of them use mass transit to go to work.
Peace,
ANDEE
. So, in the future, instead of complaining about us, take down the car number and the time and place of the incident and WRITE A LETTER (not email or phone calls). Explain the situation and ask why that particular course of action was taken. If enough people actually document the probelms on a line, you might possibly get something changed.
wait, what about this. i know this is a novel idea -- but what about the TA employing a bunch of trouble shooters who sit at strategic locations around the system and just OBSERVE customers. maybe even TALK to some of them. what about the interlocking towers keep LOGS of any diversions they make and any decisions they make, and send these to the management? i don't know how bad the NYC subway is in comparsion to the London Underground (i suspect the LUL is a lot worse -- at least NYCsubway has a published schedule), but if what these people claim is true, then it's about time TA conducted some factory floor research...
at least NYCsubway has a published schedule
They are required to publish and distribute one by NY State Law.
Logs of re-routes, turned trains and battery runs (trains skipping stations) are already kept.
>>If you're going to try to put me in my place, at least learn how to spell.<<
.....*haha*.....
>>Why do you think I made such a statement.<<
Uh, because like all subtalkers, you form opinions on transit workers, and your opinions are totally correct. I mean, transit workers are just dummies, right?
>>Working out in the boroughs is more of a reason to take public transit? Explain!<<
Evidently, you DON'T know transit workers well as you thought. If you did, you wouldn't need an explanation here.
>>And why are you responding as though I am attacking you personally? Your response is a little too serious, don't you think?<<
Yeah, I guess I was a little harsh. But, I get tired of people bashing TA personel just because they Think that TA workers are idiots. You and I both know that the statement you made was based solely on opinion.
My opinion was based on friendships I have had with TA workers over the years. In your next to last sentence you say you are tired of people bashing TA workers because people think they are idiots. I never said anyone was an idiot.
And you should know that someone who works in Manhattan is much more likely to use public transportation than someone who lives and works in Queens or Brooklyn, or the Bronx or Staten Island.
Look at it this way. I live in Queens, and hope to be employed by the TA. If I have to work out of Coney Island, there is no way in hell I am taking a 2-hour train ride to work each way. If I work out of Rockaway, again I'll be forced to use a car because the train ride would be too long.
207th? Same. I would need a car, if I plan on holding my job.
I will admit however, that I have a friend who is a conductor, and he transports to work each day by train. He lives in Jamaica, and works out of Continental. The others all live in Orange County, Nassau, Monroe, or other places. But even when they lived in NY, they still knew better than to take the train to work each day.
[I hope you really don't believe that. The % of TA employees who rely solely on subway and buses to and from work must be less than 25%.]
Taking your choice of words literally, the percentage of Transit employees commuting by bus-AND-subway might be relatively low. However, the bus-OR-subway percentage is likely to be quite high. At the same time, I must refer to David's point about offering evidence to support a blanket claim such as yours.
As a Transit employee who lives in central Queens and works in Downtown Brooklyn, I have a few options for getting to and from work. The ones I've tried include a direct ride on the F; the E/F to the G (my preferred route, which saves at least 5 minutes by avoiding Manhattan); the E to the A; and the Q54 to the B57. For the return trip, I tend to take either the F directly, or the A to Lefferts and walk two miles (only in moderate weather - I need the exercise). Even the direct F is still at most a half-seat ride - the 5:58am southbound at Union Turnpike is SRO at least until 47th-50th.
And yes, as a non-auto-owner by choice, I DO "rely solely on subways and buses" (plus the LIRR) to get around, even on weekends. It can be a pain, but it's totally doable.
A couple of weeks ago, right after the bridge flip, I was on a Q northbound at 34th. Behind us there was some sort of tie up resulting in a pretty big gap in northbound local service. The tower operator (or dispatcher--whoever's in charge of those decisions) re-routed a couple of expresses onto the local track--and promptly told them to only make express stops. Nice "customer-un-friendly" decision, and rather typical.
Until a TSS at down the line caught wind of what was going on and got on the radio. Oh. My. God. I swear, he reduced that dispatcher to about an inch tall right on the radio. I'm talking things like "City Hall, who gave you permission to route express on the local. I want an answer. Now." Followed by about 10 calls of "City Hall, come into TSS ." Lots of silence. There was a lot more of this (the whole exchange lasted about 10 minutes), and the TSS was truly about to burst a vein over what was happening.
I suspect the victim of his ire has either quit, changed his/her shorts and/or sued the TSS and the TA for an amount of money roughly equal to the gross national product of Paraguay.
Numerous references were made to inconveniencing customers, lack of platform anouncements, etc. Frankly, it warmed my heart to hear such concern, and I wish there were more people held accountable for boneheaded decisions like those described in this post. If I ever meet that TSS I will personally thank him for his concern.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
I'm not sure what this has to do with a discussion of whether NYCT employees ride the system, but it's good to hear that a supervisor was acting in the customers' best interest.
David
That was the gist of what I was trying to communicate. The charge was originally made that those who schedule and dispatch trains have got their heads in an alternate reality somewhere, with boneheaded moves as described by the original poster of this thread. My point was that there are at least *some* suervisory personnel who look out for the customer and who give a hoot in hell about service.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Ah, so. And it's true...there are good supervisors and bad supervisors, just as there are in any big organization.
David
I'm gonna give the Baltimore spin on this question.
The Maryland MTA REQUIRES all managerial people to use the system on a DAILY basis. That means they ride the bus, the Light Rail or the Metro to get to the William Donald Schaefer Building where the MTA's General Office is located.
That requirement is in NYCT's rule book, too.
David
Actually the TA rule requires employees to use ONLY the TA as a conveyance while on duty.
I have another example of this. It happened yesterday evening about 8:30 or so. It affected the 20:01 (I think) out of Parsons/Archer.
Manhattan-bound J train pulls in on the center track at Eastern Pkwy because of a OOS train on the Manhattan-bound local track that was going into the ENY yard. Train stops at station, T/O pushes button to indicate to conductor that doors are to open on the Manhattan-bound side. Doors don't open. Another press of the button, a long pause, doors still don't open. The conductor did not realize that she was trying to open the doors on the wrong side (Queens-bound) of the train. Finally, after about 1.5 minutes, doors open. Now I see exactly why that device was installed. It prevented the doors from opening up on the wrong side.
After a 1 minute dwell time, doors close, then reopen. Conductor announces to people in the back of the train to step lively. Doors remain open. Conductor tells T/O that she has "to go to the back of the train to check it out". Turns out a door problem in one of the end cars was the culprit.
Meanwhile, a TSS comes out and asks what's the delay all about. As we finally leave Eastern Pkwy 10 minutes later, the TSS remains on the train, and after we make a station stop at Chauncey St, gets on the PA and announces we're making a battery run, stopping only at Myrtle Av and then Marcy Av. The TSS rides up front with me observing the T/O, who was doing fine, but was a little too cautious slowing down while passing stations. At Myrtle, the TSS asks to take over as T/O, because, telling the other T/O, "you were a bit to cautious going through the stations, and we gotta make up some time".
Now that's taking care of business personally. Never thought about getting the TSS's name, but I did thank him for his customer service and positive attitude.
And the battery run on the Broadway/Brooklyn El was great, too!
--Mark
[Now I see exactly why that device was installed. It prevented the doors from opening up on the wrong side. ]
Wouldn't OPTO accomplish the same thing :-)
Arti
The rule says that trains may go no faster than 15mph when leaving bypassed stations. That coupled with the numerous speed restrictions and the fact that there was a TSS riding with him should be taken into account. How was the TSS going to make up time - break the rules?
No - Here's the real problem. Newspapers don't sell because of good news so they print some statistics that give the less intelligent public (possibly like you) a chubby. The fact is I ride mass transit at least 5 days per week. More over, I ride my line at least 5 days per week. There is very little happening on my line or to my cars that I do not know about. Another fact is that I am not the only one. Not by a long shot. Now you can post the proof you've just invented for this occasion.
Ok. Since TrainDude works for the TA and rides his line to work everyday, then most TA employees do the same. That's what you're saying.
Talk to you soon Traindud.
"Ok. Since TrainDude works for the TA and rides his line to work everyday, then most TA employees do the same. That's what you're saying."
No - that's not what I'm saying although I doubt that you'd be interested in the facts. What I said is that I ride the trains every day. I also said, "I am not the only one, not by a long shot." DO YOU REMEMBER READING THAT? Perhaps you should go back and re-read my original post before you start inferring that which was not implied.
The fact is that on my lines, virtually every manager rides either to and from work or during the course of their duties or both. I also see other operating managers on my LIRR train either in the AN or PM or both. They do not float to and from Penn Station, Atlantic Ave or Jamaica. They use mass transit. Of course, I wouldn't want to confuse you with facts if your mind is made up so you can believe what you want. Now, perhaps you'd like to dispute what I've said with documentable proof?
What about the disingenous statistics produced by the TA?
We both know that the same statistic can often be used in various formats to prove both sides of an argument. I also didn't invent the term "Yellow Journalism". But the question is how many employees use the subways or busses on a regular basis. I'm quite sure that the TA has such numbers but whether they give that number out is another story. The problem is that only people who swipe through turnstiles are counted. Some still show their pass and go through the access gate. Based on what i see on a day to day basis leads me to beklieve that most operating managers do use the system on a regular basis. I hate to use myself as an example but I am actually recognized by several riders on my line. They are not shy about complaining when necessary.
Here is the problem. The people who run the TA, for the most part are not passengers.
I think that this assessment is correct. However, you must identify who "runs" the TA. It's the MTA Board members, the politicians who appoint them and the bond underwriters who finance it.
I was referring to T/O's, C/R's, TSS's, all the way on up.
Perhaps I knew too many M train motormen in my youth, and my analysis has been innaccurate. Why? Because the M train terminal at Metropolitan is right next to a giant parking lot, so most of the TA employees parked there, and just came to work. It's probably different for those working at Jamaica Center, since parking is impossible in that neighborhood.
Other employees will drive their car to a municipal parking lot, and just take a short subway ride from there to work.
I knew a T/O on the 7 line who always parked at a municipal lot and just took the 7 from there, so it was a mix of car/subway for him to get to work.
Whoa. What an experience. I guess the J line is not dependable for you. I rode a J train from Jamaica Center to East NY and it ran totally fine! (I was with my dad Railfanning the subway) All local stops to Chambers St. Manhattan, I was on the J when I noticed that we ran out of time Railfanning. I transferred to the A at ENY, I think that was the best choice.
The departure time at Jamaica Center was "right on the bell" (at terminal stations the dispatcher rings a bell exactly once to signal the departure time), and the service was great. No unexpected delays and the conductor was very generous and logical about announcements and the doors.
After all, it was great. I guess the J can really mess you up down the track. Try some alternatives if you have ANY at all. Good luck.
Railfan Pete.
>>The easy logical thing to do was to simply run the local J as a normal train (it was packed with more riders, and it was assumed by all that it would leave first) while running the express J down the middle track to Eastern Parkway to fill the massive gap in front of this whole mess. Non-revenue trains using the middle track cannot be used as an excuse for not doing this, as the track was completely empty all the way to ENY.<<
Unfortunately, this 'solution' would not work. The solution that was made was the right one. The 'local' J train was packed with riders. Running it express to ENY forces people off of it and onto that J 'express', plus it allows the train behind schedule to catch up on it's schedule.
>>Today: Got the 16:40 J 4 minutes late at Fulton. Delays on the M force the J to go local after Marcy, at least I thought as the conductor made the announcement that the train would be making all stops at Marcy. Arrive at Myrtle 7 minutes late as an M train running express pulls in at Myrtle at the same time. Why on earth would you run an already late J local when an M was right behind the %$#@$^ J train?<<
As you describe it:
One, there had been little local service to stations between Marcy/Myrtle. By running the J in front as a local, you help those people at the local stations. Plus, the J was only 4 mins late, which isn't a big deal...
True, sometimes the decisions that TA managment makes baffles us. But, they often see the big picture, not us riders. The managers sometimes make bad decisions, but usually they're making good ones.
Unfortunately, this 'solution' would not work. The solution that was made was the right one. The 'local' J train was packed with riders. Running it express to ENY forces people off of it and onto that J 'express', plus it allows the train behind schedule to catch up on it's schedule
No, the local J train was half empty because all of the people on it needed a train making all stops, or were too confused about what stops the "local" train was making, so they got off to be safe. Both trains were late as it was. The TA should worry about minimizing delays for it's riders, not how many minutes one particular train arrives late at it's terminal. I assert again that the earlier J "local" should have run normal, with the J "express" (which left Broad St. 10 minutes after the J "local") should have run non stop on the middle track to ENY, running ahead of the aformentioned J Local.
One, there had been little local service to stations between Marcy/Myrtle. By running the J in front as a local, you help those people at the local stations. Plus, the J was only 4 mins late, which isn't a big deal...
But the people at these local stations would have been served by an M right behind the J, which arrived at the same time as the J did at Myrtle because it ran express from Marcy. Whomever made the decisions about train slotting here needlessly subjected J line riders to delays that were not necessary.
Sure, monkeys can run it better. And if I put them in front of typewriters, eventually they'll write all of Shakespeare's works, too
What is this, a 'Planet of the Apes' question?
Well, in all honesty, I've discovered Mark W. working for TA, so anything is possible....;-D
BMTman
LOL.
I was merely trying to vent my incredulous frustration at some of the decisions that were made when service disruptions/delays necessitated some service changes. We all know all TA personnel are much more advanced than apes.....perhaps as advanced as Neanderthals :)
Today: Got the 16:40 J 4 minutes late at Fulton. Delays on the M force the J to go local after Marcy, at least I thought as the conductor made the announcement that the train would be making all stops at Marcy. Arrive at Myrtle 7 minutes late as an M train running express pulls in at Myrtle at the same time. Why on earth would you run an already late J local when an M was right behind the %$#@$^ J train?
Maybe they are trying to repeat the unlikely uphill rear-ender that occured on Monday June 5th 1995 when a "J" train rear ended an "M" train on the Williamsburg Bridge. You wonder if chimpanzees can run the subways better than some human beings. That is entirely possible.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Line By line History
Of course, includes all the recent B div. changes.
Also includes corrected info on 1964-72 A,C,E service. (A was local to Euclid only, E was Exp. to Rockaways)
To R36 (rmarrero): I need to know if your bullet gif's are still up, or if they moved, so I can fix the signs.
This gets better each time you update it, Eric.
I have to quibble with some wording on the Q/QT portion, though.
11-15-60 first R-27's appear. Express is designated as "Q", local via tunnel "QT", and local via bridge "QB". Cars ran mostly on QT, and 9-16-64, first R-32 "Brightliners" go into service on Q
1-1-61 Q 57th St-Brighton Beach and QT Coney Island-Astoria weekdays. Sat. QT still ran to Franklin while Q express ran to Astoria, local in Manhattan. Other times QB ran.
Mention of the "Q" is ananchronistic in this context, as is the refrence to "QT still ran to Franklin". The Brighton Express ran a deciated fleet on the weekday Broadway run, and these were always signed "1" until the R32s began to replace the Triplexes in 1964. This same fleet operated the Saturday Brighton-Franklin and were signed "7". That signage also indicated that the TA considered the service as Brighton-Franklin rather than as a rerouted Brighton Local. "QT" at the time stood for Brighton Local via tunnel.
The whole point of the page is using the letters for the routes since their start c1920 (and late 1800's for the J and K). Since letters are now the universal indentifiers of 10 ft wide trains, (and numbers for 9 ft wide trains) for the sake of familiarity I identify them by the means we use today. (People who don't remember the old names will be more familiar with "The #1 ran to Brooklyn decades ago" rather than "The Broadway Express rann to Brooklyn..."
The NY Div. ERA Bulletins I got most of my information from list a "Saturday Brighton local" as being distinct from "Franklin-Brighton", even though the route patterns may have been "identical". While the extended Franklin was a summer seasonal service, The Bulletin points out that the Sat. locals were not, and operated all year, (like the QT). They may have signed it as a #7, but they were officially #1 schedules, and this made them semi-technically "QT"s (even though they didn't actually reach the tunnel.)
A problem is that you are tracing by letters, not lines. It is consistent, for example, when describing the history of H/HH, to describe the two different lines. Likewise K/KK. But when you reach back before the assignment of letters to a pre-existing service, you have to run into trouble.
Does the current B really trace back to the original BB (a rush-hours only Concourse service?) or did B effectively become the West End service post-Chrystie? In favor of that argument is the fact that the West End B did not travel north of 57/6 much of the time and now doesn't go to Concourse at all, ever.
So how do you deal with the W? If you can trace the J back to the 19th century, you could do the same with the W. Or would you trace the B back to the BB&CI? Or neither (as you have it now)? My solution? Hide under the bed. Unless something else is already under there. :-)
Well, whenever you try to extrapolate modern practices backwards, you have to make decisions. We just see it differently. And it is your website, after all.
The original BB was the Washington Heights - 6th Ave. local. And yes, it did run only during rush hours.
The J remains more true to its 19th century route than the West End, which had a totally different route north of 9th Av. (which no longer exists, and thus has no modern lettered counterpart). That's why the old Bway-Jamaica el service an be considered the origin of today's J line.
The B was the merger of the B and T (the non-CPW section was originally planned to remain "T" even though moved to 6th Av.) So the B designation obviously stems from the old IND BB, even though the new route didn't always run uptown. The double letter was dropped because it went from a purely local line, to express elsewhere besides CPW.
Of course, the main problem with the W, is that it really was the T, so now you have two letters representing the same route. That's why I and others wish T was used, for the sake of continuity (And all of this is addressed on the page)
I also am interested in the bullets. I remember seeing the page once months ago, but I ignored it because of disinterest at the time and I was behind on my Subtalk messages. However, I am interested and if anybody could re-post the link I would appreciate it very much.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/bullets/1979/index.html
(also "1967" and "older"--old routes in 1979 colors, though the brown looks black)
The signs on my site are now fixed.
I fixed that problem, and the bullents I have currently are now on my site.
Download bullets (363K)
This proposes DeKalb-Rutgers connection often gets mentioned on the board, with ideas of how it would run, as well as what happens if the Manhattan Bridge is fully closed, fully open, etc.
Well, as I learn more about HTML, I can put together sites like this to give the basic highlights. (I now upload "Notepad" txt files instead of Corel files, whose tables often change when you reopen them, and bolds and italics will activate out of nowhere).
There is alot of interesting stuff. I hope this answers alot of people's questions.
Thanks for the information. I guess that some of my ideas will remain just that - ideas. Many of the proposed lines would have been nice, but in the end reality comes to settle things and determine what happens and what does not.
I thought I read somewhere on the board that the express station at 59 on the lexington ave line was opened somewhat recently (at least in relationship to the Lexington Ave line itself. Is this true? Was the express station simply added at a later date? Any information is greatly appreciated.
Bill/Piggo
That's right. The station opened in November, 1962. It had to be dug out since there was no station on the express tracks previously. It's one of the deepest stations in the system - approx. 80 feet below street level.
Joe Korman used to, and probably still does (that packrat!) have a copy of the 40-year-old brochure with information about the opening of the express station on his site. Try http://www.thejoekorner.com/ .
Mark
The following appears in the IRT Division section of NYCSubway.org:
The next station, 59th Street, started existance as a local-only station with side platforms on the upper level. The express tracks, which run underneath the BMT 60th St. tunnel, had platforms added in 1959. The express platforms were added to reduce congestion at Grand Central and to provide another connection to Queens trains. This complex is on three levels, with the local on top, the Queens trains in the middle and the express on the bottom. This station used to have all green tile which has been covered up except for one "59th Street" sign near the south end of the northbound platform. There are whimsical stylized coffee cups and slippers mosaics in varied colors at random spacing near the stairways to mid and upper levels. This station is being renovated. For more information on the 59th St. express station see: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/lex59/index.html.
A lot can be learned from areas of this site besides SubTalk!
Thanks for the info, you are absolutely correct about hunting around this site. When I first found it, I went from page to page and learned an incredible amount about the system. After awhile, I got into the habit of logging onto subtalk and not doing much more.
I will make it a point to explore the site, there is a wealth of information here; maybe only subfans appreicate it, but I am a subfan and I do appreicate the work David and the other contributors do. And Subtalk is a valuable suppliment, the response to my quesiton lead me to other sites that had different facts and tidbits.
Bill/Piggo
I boarded the next-to-last car of a Manhattan-bound W train at Queensboro Plaza this evening. As the train pulled out, a man in the last car pulled off the black rubber around the window at the front of his car and dropped the tubing and the window to the tracks. He then reached over and did the same to the rear window of the car I was in (that tubing fell into my car). He then sat down in his car. We rattled through the tunnel that way, and I got out at Lexington. The platform was so crowded that I wasn't able to reach the conductor before the train pulled out again.
What, if anything, would the better response have been?
Kick in the door of the Motorman's/Conductors cab, and yell over the PA system, "Vandalism in last car, vandalism in last car, please notify police".
Whatever you do, don't pull the emergency cord! At least between stations. Although you could have pulled it just as the train was slowing down to enter the station, in order to trap the vandal.
>>>>>>>>Kick in the door of the Motorman's/Conductors cab, and yell over the PA system, "Vandalism in last car, vandalism in last car, please notify police".
I hope that "Tmennel" realizes that you were joking.......................................you were joking right?
Perhaps LuchAAA was in the last car and wanted to surrender. :)
I hope that "Tmennel" realizes that you were joking.......................................you were joking right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On some of the new cars on the 6 train, I think you can actually call the T/O or C/R from a public PA system.
Was I joking? Yeah. But I would have looked for a cop at the next station.
Yep, did that. They must have all been undercover.
As I said in another post, you should be able to find the undercovers, they are easily enough to spot.
About 3 weeks ago, I was at Times Square near the 7th Ave lines, a tourist was sitting on the steps from 42/Bway bleeding profusly. I approached the gaggle of undercover cops hannging out about 20 feet away and told them a man was in need of assistance on the steps. I got a nasty "so what's it to us" and then the 5 officers ran over to the man, one calling on his radio. I guess they had to maintain their "secrecy".
If the tunnels were wired for cell phones and you had one but then we'd be stuck with all the babble which I hear is too common in other places with those things. So the bad could outweigh the good but assistance could have been called.
Trap the vandal? He could jump out the window he had just removed.
...or, he could throw you out the window.
Peace,
ANDEE
Or you could beat him unconcious, slap a sticky on his forehead saying "dail 911, i broke the windows and deserve what i got". sooner or later someone will find the bastard. take his shoes while your at it, just for good measure.
-joe, only perhaps half sarcastic
>>>...only perhaps half sarcastic <<<
Nah, all the way sarcastic....and I loved it!
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have followed the guy, until I saw a cop, and then started screaming to have the cop come over. Then I would have sworn out as a witness.
Many years ago, I was jogging in the park when I saw a teen who had torn the fence around a new tree chopping it down with an axe. I ran off and I chased him for a while, but he outdistanced me. Besides, he had an axe.
Another time, about five years ago, three teens were walking down my block kicking over the garbage cans that had been set out for collection. I crossed the street, and ran unseen along until I was even with them, as they passed an apartment building that had a hedgerow. I charged across the street and shouldered one of them into the hedgerow. The others took off, but I tried to grab that one and hold him down while I yelled for the neighbors to come out. But he bolted out of the bushes and got away.
There have been other incidents around here, with other vandals challenged by other neighbors. You get very little vandalism in Windsor Terrace.
One for the subway. I once came up at our stop late and night, and saw three teenage boys with underpants in their hands, and three cops. The boys were using their underpants to clean graffiti off the walls. Later I heard that the cops had caught them with the paint, and told them to clean it off somehow or they'd be arrested, but didn't provide anything to do it with. The cops said use your clothes. I guess they didn't want to ruin their outerwear.
I should perhaps mention, that at least one time some neighbors got ahold of someone long enough for the cops to get there, and he was arrested. Most of the time you can just run them off. But then perhaps they don't come back.
The best response was what you tried, which was to contact someone. You never know, especially with the savage animal kids, what someone is capable of. If it weren't for the fact that I'd go to jail, I would probably try to severly cripple someone like that. Unfortunatly, todays justice system favors the criminal. And I'm NOT being sarcastic.
I was on the N line between 86th and stilwell about an hour ago and i saw an R143 on the track adjacent to the N tracks. from far away it looked like an r46, but then I saw the Black front.
Did you catch the car #? That would greatly help. Also, if you knew what train (line) that car was part of, that would greatly help too.
Railfan Pete.
I didnt catch the car # and the LCD sign said NOT IN SERVICE.
maybe just testing
R143's are continually out on the tracks during periodical amounts of time for testing. Any chance they might be out, stored, or maintained in the Coney Island yard? (I'll double check the list of Yards in NYC for this).
Railfan Pete.
Usually when you see one of my "how to" posts, it means how to operate the train. Not in this case, this post is on how to operate the bridge itself.
Slight clarification: The South Channel Bridge which is located between Broad Channel and Hammels Wye (split to Beach 67 & 90 Sts) is actually opened/closed by an Elevator & Escalator Maintainer on top of the Bridge, the following are the procedures to be followed by the Rockaway Park Tower Operator in regards to Bridge operation...
To open:
1) Elevator Maintainer sets off an illuminated alarm inside Rock Pk Tower. A green light marked "Permission to open Bridge" stays lit and a continuous buzzer sounds until the TW/O presses the acknowledge button.
2) If all tracks are clear, the TW/O takes away the lineups at six different points. Southbound, the two approach signals south of Broad Channel towards the Bridge, Northbound the leaving two home signals at Beach 90-Holland and the two home signals at the Wye from Beach 67-Gaston. Holding lights are activated at Beach 67 by Rock Pk Tower and at Broad Channel by Liberty Junction Tower. If any trains are moving in the immediate vicinity of the Bridge, those immediate trains are allowed to cross the Bridge before the lineups are taken away.
3) When all lineups are pulled and all is clear, there is a twist-knob that sticks out just above a drawn box on the model board. The box symbolizes the Bridge area and the two tracks cross horizontally in the middle of the box, and the knob looks like a selector knob on a washing machine where you choose between whites, permanent press, etc. The knob has two settings, one for open and one for close and there is a light above each indication.
The knob normally faces at 2 o'clock (for closed) and the light is normally green. To unlock the Bridge, the TW/O twists the knob from the 2 o'clock setting, counter-clockwise to the 10 o'clock setting. The green light above "closed" on the right side immediately goes out and the red light above "open" on the left side is now lit. At this time, the Elevator Maintainer now has control of the Bridge.
The Tower then notifies Control Center, tells them that the Bridge is open and the time that it opened.
To close:
1) After the Elevator maintainer closes the Bridge, the red light above "open" goes out. A RED light now illuminates above the "closed". To fully lock the Bridge, the TW/O must now turn the knob from the 10 o'clock position (for open), clockwise to the 2 o'clock position (for closed). The red light above closed now turns green.
2) The TW/O properly lines up all tracks/signals and resumes normal train service. The Tower notifies Control Center and lets them know that the Bridge is closed and the time that service resumed.
FYI, the North Channel Bridge is permanently locked and there is a red light atop the NC Bridge. The light on the SC Bridge is green when manned, and red when unmanned.
There ya go. This has been a Zman179 production. (c)2001.
Thanks for a fascinating article, ZMan.
So if I understand correctly, neither the tower operator nor the bridge personnel can single-handedly open or close the bridge? Bridge electronically requests permission, tower grants permission (again, electronically by turning that dial to 10:00), bridge op accepts permission and physically opens up the bridge. Vice-versa to shut down. There is, therefore, no possible way that the bridge could open without the TA's knowledge?
I have a couple of questions on the operations as described.
What is the time frame, typically, from when the bridge operator requests control until service is back to normal?
Is there a limit on how frequently this can be done (I'm sure if they wanted to open and close the bridge 20 times a day service would get pretty messed-up)?
Who has the final "say" that "yes, it's OK to suspend service at this time" ?
Do you know how the elevator maintainer knows that vessels are approaching (is it broadcast on marine radio channels, or are there assigned times that vessels can go through, etc)? Do they need to give advance warning?
What happens if a vessel needs to get through when there is no operator on duty?
Thanks,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway and confirmed landlubber (I do fly a pretty mean Cessna, though :-))
Speaking of the South Channel Bridge, there was recently talk on this board about how they built a new track on the Rockaway line somewhere around there. Where exactly did they build this third track, and how does it connect to the other tracks? The track maps on this website do not show a third track there.
- Lyle Goldman
Speaking of the South Channel Bridge, there was recently talk on this board about how they built a new track on the Rockaway line somewhere around there. Where exactly did they build this third track, and how does it connect to the other tracks? The track maps on this website do not show a third track there.
Actually, I didn't even know about F5 until about a month ago.
It runs beside southbound F3 track. F5 starts just north of Broad Channel as a turnout from (reverse-running) F3 track or by going across the scissors crossover north of Broad Channel. It runs I think for a couple of miles to immediately south of the North Channel Bridge. There are no automatic signals on the stretch and it is perfectly straight.
It will eventually show up on the online track maps, and will be reflected in the third edition of my book.
When I was out there a few weeks ago I saw an R-143 consist out testing on it.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
>>>>>>>>>So if I understand correctly, neither the tower operator nor the bridge personnel can single-handedly open or close the bridge? Bridge electronically requests permission, tower grants permission (again, electronically by turning that dial to 10:00), bridge op accepts permission and physically opens up the bridge. Vice-versa to shut down. There is, therefore, no possible way that the bridge could open without the TA's knowledge?
Correct.
>>>>>>>>What is the time frame, typically, from when the bridge operator requests control until service is back to normal?
Usually, the minimum is about 12 minutes.
>>>>>>>Is there a limit on how frequently this can be done (I'm sure if they wanted to open and close the bridge 20 times a day service would get pretty messed-up)?
There is no limit. From what I've heard, according to federal law, maritime traffic receives priority over land traffic because "the water was there before the bridge". So if 40 ships come through, then the bridge opens 40 times.
>>>>>>>>Who has the final "say" that "yes, it's OK to suspend service at this time" ?
The Train Dispatcher at Rockaway Park.
>>>>>>>Do you know how the elevator maintainer knows that vessels are approaching (is it broadcast on marine radio channels, or are there assigned times that vessels can go through, etc)? Do they need to give advance warning?
That I do not know for sure, but I think one time I was told that there was a set schedule for boat traffic to cross. Don't hold me to that though.
>>>>>>>>What happens if a vessel needs to get through when there is no operator on duty?
It has to wait until the bridge is manned.
I don't remember where I heard this, but I thought that the priorty for bridge traffic was 1) rail 2) marine 3) road. Something to due with political power of railroads at one time. I remember on the NJ Transit crossing over the Manisquan River, MANY boats waiting of a train to approach and cross the bridge (and in the 70's those trains crossed very slowly as the bridge was in poor shape). Does anyone else know anything about his????
The South Channel Bridge isn't in the best of shape either. There have been many times where the Bridge will not open, and also after it opens, the Bridge (mostly during the winter) freezes and will not close.
I would like one day to find out how they fix the Bridge from being stuck in an open position.
<< I would like one day to find out how they fix the Bridge from being stuck in an open position. >>
Lots of WD-40?
The Broadway/225th St bridge had an annoying habit of "getting stuck" in the summer ... solution, fireboats ...
Why fireboats? ....to cool down the expanded metal?
Peace,
ANDEE
PRECISELY ... the 225th St bridge that replaced the old swing bridge always had a habit of "getting stuck" in the "up" position from DAY ONE. I'd guess that STILL hasn't changed ... And they'd have to hose down the sides until it closed ...
Due to a faulty electrical circuit, sometimes they have to lay up a train on M track on the Broadway bridge in order to weigh the bridge down. This was done in order to keep the bridge from giving a false reading of it being open. Needless to say, the train usually came back to 240 yard more colorful.
Heh. I tell ya, that bridge has been a neverending adventure ... Up until 1969, that was my home line. What's the speed restrict over that thing these days? Still 10?
I believe it is 15, but it translates to 20-25 in the real world. Most T/O's ignore it.
If you've operated on it, then you know about the "S" edges on the rails on either side of the bridge on the three tracks. Sometimes they don't go all the way down and the reason for the restriction is that (at least 30 years ago) the trucks would bounce on them if there was a height disparity. Bounce them high enough and you'd ... well ... lose it. Then again, beat the edges enough ... Northbound at least you have to slow for 225, which is right up against the north side of that puppy.
But that is one miserable bridge. Back in the late 60's though, it was either 10 or 12 ... I forget it's been so long and they MEANT it. Woulda thought after all these years though, they wouldn't still have to do a layup to make things work there. Then again, nothing I hear these days surprises me.
Thinking again about that layup situation, it suddenly dawns on me, "maybe THAT'S what happened to the old "Broadway Thru Exp?" ... I do recall back when that was still running, every now and then, especially on a real cold winter morning, red balls were the rule. Now you've got me wondering. Ah, for the good old days of "clip leads" that would bypass snotty connections ... don't mind me, mind wanders. If I'm not careful, I'm going to end up sitting here outguessing car assignments for the "Y" train. Heh.
Somebody slap me now ...
It's still hot up there too, huh?
Ayup ... lemme put it to you this way ... nominally for the 9th of August, we tend to hit a high of 86, dewpoint of 60 maybe, roughly about 55% RH (since they're scared sheetless of telling NYC residents what the actual dewpoint is on the local forecasts) and at night, we usually get down to 55-60 most nights with an occasional late July/early August low of 48-54 dewpoint ...
Right now, it's 78 with dewpoint to match. Up here in the sticks, don't need airconditioning - you sit out on the porch and take in the breezes in the afternoon and when the skeeters get hungry enough, it's cool enough to go back inside. Most folks don't need AC here. I've wished we had an AC for the past 7 days. Smallbany broke a record today at 96 and we're going to break the record "high low temperature" tonight ... the tornado that blew through here earlier tonight cooled things down for a while, but the soup is back on again with a vengeance now. And I left the city to get AWAY from this crap so I could enjoy those neat -40 winters. :)
96 eh? We beat ya downstate with 102. But it's supposed to cool down about 20 degrees this Saturday (I can't wait).
Yeah, but you guys are used to the tropical heat ... that's why you can score papaya juice, plantains and have Orange Juliuses ... up here, all we get is ketchup and it's pretty damned rancid in this weather. We're the breezy (ahem) "mountains" up here and it feels like flipping Ft Lauderdale ... except we voted correctly here. :)
Do you know how the elevator maintainer knows that vessels are approaching (is it broadcast on marine radio channels, or are there assigned times that vessels can go through, etc)? Do they need to give advance warning?
That I do not know for sure, but I think one time I was told that there was a set schedule for boat traffic to cross. Don't hold me to that though.
Many drawbridges which carry heavy road traffic will open only on set schedules. It wouldn't be surprising if that doesn't apply to the South Channel Bridge too.
Hello, I went out to the museum of tv and radio with a girl today and wanted to let you know about my subway observations today.
Here are two noteworthy things that both occurred at the 57th Street/7 Avenue terminal.
First, as we were waiting for a on the uptown express platform there happened to be a West End-bound train with a R-40-S consist. The rollsigns showed the "W diamond".
Second, as the two of us waited for about 15 minutes for a to Brighton Beach [I live in Queens but wanted to see her home, of course =) ]... Around 18:55 there was a (Q) which crossed over from the uptown express track over to the downtown express platform. Behind that, was an R-40-S consist, what first appeared to be a but had a Not In Service sign! People thought that this would go into a service as a but surprisingly NO! The T/O leisurely walked from one cab to the other, and at 19:00 the green lights illuminated and the train took off! Some guy was yelling some interesting remark to the Conductor, in the form of "F--- you, you son of a b----" as the R-40-S pulled out. Ar around 19:04 a in revenue service finally pulled in and we were off.
I dropped off my friend at Brighton Beach then returned Manhattan-bound on the same train, departing Brighton Beach at around 20:00. I saw all the action out the famous "railfan" window. The New York Skyline from the south side of the Manhattan Bridge never looked more beautiful. And there was a building showing the time and temperature: "8:43.... 95 F"
Interestingly as I switched from the at 34 Street to take the F back to Queens, I happened to catch a brightliner S train consist to Queensbridge pulling out of the station. Then in comes, you guessed it...... another train NOT IN SERVICE! This time a separate guy struts to the conductor and says "I wanna get on my f----n train!" The conductor said "this is not your train, this is the MTA's train!" Shortly after the non-revenue train departed. (It was an R-44 consist by the way)
Thus ends my report on my subway observations. What a day on the trains! My final comment, if they can run the N and the W with a R-40-S consist (I saw 2 N trains like that today), what's next, brightliners on the F?
Seems like the mail system can't accept a Q in brackets to represent a Q express so here's a repost in case you find stuff missing....
First, as we were waiting for a diamond Q on the uptown express platform there happened to be a West End-bound train with a R-40-S consist. The rollsigns showed the "W diamond".
Second, as the two of us waited for about 15 minutes for a diamond Q to Brighton Beach [I live in Queens but wanted to see her home, of course =) ]... Around 18:55 there was a (Q) which crossed over from the uptown express track over to the downtown express platform. Behind that, was an R-40-S consist, what first appeared to be a diamond Q but had a Not In Service sign! People thought that this would go into a service as a diamond Q but surprisingly NO! The T/O leisurely walked from one cab to the other, and at 19:00 the green lights illuminated and the train took off! Some guy was yelling some interesting remark to the Conductor, in the form of "F--- you, you son of a b----" as the R-40-S pulled out. Ar around 19:04 a diamond Q in revenue service finally pulled in and we were off.
(skip paragraph)
Interestingly as I switched from the diamond Q at 34 Street to take the F back to Queens, I happened to catch a brightliner S train consist to Queensbridge pulling out of the station.
everything else remains the same...
what's next, brightliners on the F?
No. The F Culver Line will retain all of its full-time revenue service R46 trains on that line. What a trip you had today! I wish I had that experience!
By the way, about a year ago, on a periodical number of Sundays in the afternoon, I would see some R46 trainsets (only one half of it, 4 cars) trundling down the express downtown track, and the exp AND local trains in the uptown platform of Roosevelt Av. On the front and the side LCD's it marked "NOT IN SERVICE" and periodically "SPECIAL". A couple of times, I would even see an entire trainset of a G train (R46's) 'beep-beep-beep' their way along the uptown local track of Roosevelt Av.! (G trains do not run in Queens on weekends)
The conductor said "this is not your train, this is the MTA's train!" Shortly after the non-revenue train departed. (It was an R-44 consist by the way)
Wow. An R44 trainset at Queensbridge! That's a first. NO R44's are assigned to the Queens Blvd. area tracks. Only R46's, R40 Slants (rare), R62(A), and the trains used on the J line (I think it's R40 or R42 [without the slants]) are found there.
And as for the "bums" who think they have a way with conductors by cursing at them, I think they should know better. If a train is running (not in revenue service, just a transportation to the yard or not serving passengers), they should be patient for the next one.
I've also had a report on someone spotting R40 slants on the W once. Hmm. I think they're mixing the West-End fleet with some slants now. Bring it on... (I've only ridden on a Slant once on the N to Queensboro Plaza)
: )
Railfan Pete.
>>> Wow. An R44 trainset at Queensbridge! That's a first. NO R44's are assigned to the Queens Blvd. area tracks. Only R46's, R40 Slants (rare), R62(A), and the trains used on the J line (I think it's R40 or R42 [without the slants]) are found there. <<<
I think you are confused, I saw this R-44 consist on the uptown local tracks at 34 street, coming behind the R-32 shuttle consist. I can't tell if it went to the local tracks for the Jamaica Yard or the express tracks to where it would normally run or go.
I have seen at least three circle Q R68As {5xxx} since the swap, one on the weekday, two on the weekend. I have one weekend experience of a R68 {2xxx} on the W shuttle from Pacific to CI. In all the time since 1997 or 1998 when the B and orange Q switched the R40s with the R68As, I have only seen two R40 slant Bs and only one R68A {5xxx} on the D, never a 2xxx on the B. I guess because the W is a weekend shuttle and there is a higher availability of slants the Q and W will be interchanging equippment regularly for a while.
Wow. An R44 trainset at Queensbridge! That's a first. NO R44's are assigned to the Queens Blvd. area tracks. Only R46's, R40 Slants (rare), R62(A), and the trains used on the J line (I think it's R40 or R42 [without the slants]) are found there.
No R-40's are assigned to any of the Queens Boulevard lines.
Certainly no R-62's or R-62A's are assigned to any of the Queens Boulevard lines.
No R-40M's or R-42's are assigned to any of the Queens Boulevard lines, either.
You'll find lots of R-32's out there, though, mostly on the E. In November, the G will start bringing R-68's out there as well.
I'll admit it...along with much of the riding public, I disdained Metrocards for the longest time. What convinced me was when they started offering free transfers in 1997.
Who still uses tokens exclusively? Why?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'll admit it...along with much of the riding public, I disdained Metrocards for the longest time. What convinced me was when they started offering free transfers in 1997.
Who still uses tokens exclusively? Why?
I see a few people still using tokens, but not many. Probably not more than 10% to 15%.
I exclusively use the 30-day Unlimited Metrocard for myself, but the tokens still serve a useful purpose:
I work at a social service agency, where we give clients tokens for travel to various appointments. It is much easier to keep track of exactly what we give them that way, as we usually only distribute one token at a time. With Metrocards, we would have to hand out at least two rides at a time. There is no guarantee that the second ride would be used for the purpose intended.
>> With Metrocards, we would have to hand out at least two rides at a time. There is no guarantee that the second ride would be used for the purpose intended.<<
You can recharge a metrocard for $1.50. Just go to stations, pick up a bunch of discarded metrocards from those metrocard disposal things that rarely get cleared out, and fill the cards. Granted, not an easy solution, but it would let your clients get a free transfer.
Sorry- the disposal bins are being modified to permanently erase cards inseretd through the slot. What that means is if you put a card with money remaining on the card, you just lost the money. It also means that your friendly neighborhood Station Agent or the inhuman, uncaring, cold, impersonal, etc. MVM will not be able to assist you with that card
are you serious? It seems like a waste to add in hundreds of dollars of magnetic stripe equipment to each disposal bin just so that people can't scavenge through them for free rides.
Which is but a few of the issues of why I’ll continue to use tokens (and, on buses, change) until such time as tokens are eliminated entirely by the NYC Transit suits On High.
I still get many young, non-immigrant business professionals buying 20-30 tokens. The issue is freedom of choice. NYCers dont like to be told you have no choice.
Choice?
Okay, then, I'd like to use a penny. I don't want to be told I have no choice.
I don't want to use tokens. I want to pay my fare with 150 pennies right at the turnstile. I don't want to be told I have no choice.
You must be rich. I want to pay my fare with one token at the turnstile!
You'll use tokens just because of the money being spent on the Metrocard system?
How ridiculous! Then why don't you start jumping turnstiles because of the GREATER cost of the token system?
I first got a MetroCard in 1994 so I still had to use tokens from time to time but the last time I had to use a token was in 1996 and I haven't used a single token since then. I will admit that the MetroCard doesn't always work well but, the MetroCard is worth the trouble since it is convenient and I don't have to fumble around for a token.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I use tokens on the subways, and alternate between tokens and loose change (i.e. quarters, nickels, dimes) on the buses, because it’s still possible to do so. Once they make it so you can only get on the buses and subways via Metrocard, I’ll make the switch, but until then. . . .
But that's ridiculous, you waste 14 cents per ride and can't transfer between busses and subways.
I save exactly 15 cents per ride with MetroCard. My credit card (which I can't use for tokens) gives me a 1% rebate, so a $15.00 MetroCard actually costs me $14.85. $14.85 for 11 rides comes to $1.35 per ride.
It's still not exactly $1.35. It's $1.3536363636363636363636...
There's another thing to consider about using a credit card:
If you use a credit card, as opposed to withdrawing cash in advance, your money gets to spend a few more weeks in the bank collecting interest.
No, it's $1.3636... if you pay cash.
It's precisely $1.35 if I use my credit card, which gives me 1% back. I pay $15.00 and I get a rebate of $0.15, so I really only pay $14.85. That's for 11 rides -- and $14.85 / 11 = $1.35 on the nose.
I'm leaving off the interest since that depends on usage. If I buy a $15 MetroCard today, use it once, and don't touch it again for another six months, that $14.85 has long departed from my bank account, while with tokens I would have only spent $1.50.
I don’t transfer between buses and subways anyway, so that’d be a moot point. Furthermore, I’ve been on some buses whereby the fare box wasn’t working, so riders therefore get on for free in such cases – thereby saving them whatever the fare is, Metrocard or no Metrocard!
You've said you use busses. You use busses but NEVER transfer to the subway from them?
Well, for what I do and the places I go I’ve seen no reason to do so.
Hey, If you want to continue to pay the full $1.50 per ride instead of buying a $15.00 card and only paying $1.35 per ride - who are we to argue.
WHY SHOULD I GIVE MY MONEY TO THE TA???
If I use the subway so little, why hang up $15.00 of my hard earned money so the TA can use it?
I'll pay as I go and buy a token each time I need the subway, and spend the money the way I want to, thank you.
(Well Me, I have an unlimited card >G<)
>>I'll pay as I go and buy a token each time I need the subway, and spend the money the way I want to, thank you. <<
And they wonder why the economy is in such bad shape.
Lou - that is the excuse I usually hear from people (but I am glad you are not one of them. You know I wanted to attribute such a statment to ignorance but sometimes I wonder.
The Unlimited Cards are a good deal provided you ride the subway often enough. Me - I am basically a Monday to Friday with only an occasional weekend. So an Unlimited on a regular basis doesn't pay for me. If I know that I will be using the subway more than just to and from home during the week I will get an Unlimited.
There a "value" card of $15 or more would be perfect because those extra free rides would be all you need. When I was a daily rider from LI that's the card I bought.
Mr t__:^)
Because if you use tokens, you're giving the TA $1.50 per ride. If you use MetroCards and spend at least $15 at a time, you're giving the TA only $1.36 or so per ride. (And if your credit card gives you rebates, that number drops even further.)
Who still uses tokens exclusively? Why?
Well, not exclusively, but... as an occasional visitor to the City I analyze my plans and decide whether a Fun Pass is called for or if I'm going to take one or two rides only. If I'm only going to ride once or twice, I use tokens (since I don't need to worry about transferring to a bus) and my one experience with the single-ride Metrocard wasn't a good one (it didn't work, two minutes after being purchased at Penn Station).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is the only good use for the token, those SingleRides SUCK since they offer no advantages (apart from being able to keep it as a souvenir) and they have the dumbassed 2 hour limit.
I'd only buy it if the booth had a line, but the MVM did not (so I guess I'd buy it all the time).
>>This is the only good use for the token, those SingleRides SUCK since they offer no advantages (apart from being able to keep it as a souvenir) and they have the dumbassed 2 hour limit. <<
Duh!! The intent of the Single Ride card is just that - A SINGLE RIDE right at the point of purchase. If someone is dumb enough to not use it within the 2 hours - then that is their problem.
If someone intends to have several single ride cards or a handful of tokens why not just buy the same value on a regular Metrocard. It is good for at least a year and you get transfer priveledges.
The excuses people use to avoid using the Metrocard just don't hold water anymore.
I have a number of MetroCards at home. As an infrequent user one of them expired & I didn't visit the Token Booth in the next year, so I lost the value remaining on it ... well I could have sent it to the TA but I've not had good experience with that.
Currently I have a couple of unused Fun Passes (was trying to get a Mets card at the Shea Stadium station & agent said both machines had the card ... duh) and a value card or two for "family" trips to the City.
My point is that some folks just don't want to buy more then one ride at a time or are like me in the way they use it.
Case in point: How much cash still comes into the Token Booths ? How many Tokens still get sold ? More then you would think ! That doesn't dimish the fact that MetroCards & MVMs have been a good thing for the riding public and the MTA too.
Mr t__:^)
unfortunatelty, your friendly neighborhood station agent cannot fix any unlimited cards or a single ride card. To the MVM fans-they cant either.
From this depot we send the TA a bag of 4,000 tokens about once a week. Use to do that every day, so volumn is down but not out.
Compare this to 500 a month here, of the TA's "Single Ride Ticket" that is supose to be the replacement them (so the Station Agents can come out of the booth).
Mr t__:^)
Okay you Station Agents out there, how are you pulling your wheels??
Do you still carry a big bucket out to the turnstile to empty the tokens or like the part time booth here at Queens Plaza, do you just empty the tokens into your hand??
One guy I saw used a little cardboard box (4x6) instead of his bucket.
to answer the question- it depends on the station. It is obvious that biggie stations like 42 or West 4, etc. generate more tokens than stations like Bowery, etc.
Well I've had the big one. Penn Station, the Mother of All Mothers - I've gone out there and pulled tokens from 13 Turnstiles. Ouch! That's a lot of tokens to pull. I had more than a 1000 Tokens to pull and a pale was definitely needed for the occasion. That day, my computer registered 3081 fares. To this day, it's the most tokens I've ever pulled from the turnstiles.
-Stef
Now that is a load of tokens.
I don't understand why so many people, especially the elderly, dislike Metrocards. If you held a gun to my grandmother's head and told her to use a card, she'd grab the gun out of your hand and pull the trigger herself. I pay 35 bucks, Reduced Fare Card, and can ride as much as I want all month. What does a token look like again? :)
Why don't the elderly like MetroCards?
Many reasons - distrust of those "newfangled" inventions. Many are too afraid of putting money on a card. Some can't afford to put too much money together at one time to put it on a card.
In my neck of the woods (Co-Op City, The Bronx) I find that 99% of the elderly individuals who I observe boarding a bus that I am riding on use the Reduced Fare card. The MetroCard bus makes several stops in the community at least once a month.
Is there a $3.50 surcharge for some reason? Isn't half of $63 $31.50?
Since I no longer live in NYC and visit maybe once a year, I still got a buttload of tokens from one of my few forays into NY Last month, I spent maybe 30 minutes in NYC on my way from Long Island to my home in Norfolk.
http://www.hillel.cornell.edu/brianw/subway/index.htm
The newest photos are all thumbnailed at the bottom of the page under "August 3, 2001." The R68 Q Diamond photos are in the fourth row.
Somebody's standing at the railfan window (inside the cab) on the R-68 diamond. See why that line needs R-40's? When it runs R-68's, the railfans break into the cab just to get to the window!
Haven't seen you around here in a while.
At least I haven't run off to some other state.
I know this is a dumb question, but is/was there a weekend GO on the 5? I did a double take seeing those Redbirds on the outer loop track at South Ferry.
There was one two weeks ago. It's happening again this weekend. (The southbound 5 is running down the 7th Avenue line, presumably discharging at Chambers and running light through the outer loop to Bowling Green.)
10-4. Thanks.
starting 8/11/2001 they will close the Queens bound platforms at hewes, FLushing, Kosciuszko and Halsey for renovations which will include elevators at Flushing. Sometime after November they'll reopen the Queens side and close the Manhattan side.
Also note trains will end at eastern Parkway for the next 5 weekends due to trackwork between Eastern parkway and cypress hills. SHuttle buses connect the two sections. J shuttle runs from CYpress Hilsl to Parsons/ Archer. Trains are also running express this weekend at least from marcy to eastern parkway.
******This post based on official station department bulletin. RTO can and has cancelled or changed G.O.s without informing stations.****
Awww ... just missed it ... I was on the J line today.
So catching a Queens-bound J at rush hour would give you a nice express run from Marcy to Eastern Pkwy ... I guess I'll just have to go back :)
--Mark
I live at the Cresent St Station. Its about time they are closing more stations for upgrading. But now I gotta walk 6 blocks to the 'A' because Im not taking a shuttle bus on the weekends lol
I'm sorry I'm not living in Richmond Hill anymore. I would have enjoyed the faster trip home, if only temporary.
6651-55 are on the property as of tonight.
-Stef
If anyone is interested there was a set of R44's on the "A" rerouted to Stillwell via the "F" Line last night, it passed the Avenue I station at 11:58pm
Rerouted to Stillwell?? In service??
last week i saw a train of r44's on the F in queens. it was out of service, and the first car was signed that way, and the rest were signed "A". the digital displays were blank.
I decide to go for a walk in Harlem, and figure on taking the #6 to get there from Parkchester. I get to the station, and I notice that the two trains at the north end of the station are not moving. Then one of them pulls in on M track. I signalled to the T/O and he shook his head. Yep, this train (R - 142As led by #7226) was heading express, even though it was 7:30. The train came out of Parkchester as "The Original 19:17 out of Parkchester," according to communications bet. the T/O and Westchester Master Tower.
At Whitlock, we get stuck behind an Automatic showing "Danger," while the home signal in front of that was showing "Caution." I was hoping it would change, 'cause I waved at a duo of young women who stuck their tounges out at me as we passed them by (I didn't want them to catch me at Hunt's Pt.)
It cleared, and we got to HP, and I found out why we were going express. The local train there (also R-142As) was stuck behind a timed home signal that didn't change.
We sprinted to 3rd Av. Had to be switched over to the local, since there was a nbnd express alread on M track there. A whole bunch of passengers on that train were getting off with very unhappy thoughts running through their heads.
All in a day's ride on the #6.
Westchester Master tower was having problems with there machines and had to go to manual mode. All trains seem to have gotten local lineups.
i saw an r62 stopped at the at the hunts point brigde yesterday
What happened with the two women who razzed you? Did you see them again? :>
Let's just say I got lucky enough to be on the train in front of them and leave it at that.
today i got off the 41 bus at rockaway and liberty, and as i'm walking under the el to the rockaway blvd station, i hear a queens-bound A coming in reeeeal slow. i didn't run for it b/c there was NO chance, ordinarily, but i get up to the platform to find a train of r44's sitting empty w/ doors open, and a large crowd standing unhappily in the heat. i came up the stairs at the back (cross bay) end, and make my way up to the front, passing one uniformed and one undercover cop along the way (i can spot the undercovers pretty good now after getting busted for smoking on too many el platforms), and several TA people. there's alot of standing around, the doors close, nothing happens. the cab of the lead r44, #5204, has about three personnel in it, all talking agitatedly on those little cellphone-looking things. there's already a big crowd around the front end, so i'm not close enough to hear anything. after maybe ten minutes, the train moves--bumped from behind. it's being operated from the 5th car. it moves about 10 feet forward, when suddenly they realize that the signal at the end of the platform is set to double red. more agitated conversation in the cab, and after 2 or 3 more minutes the signal goes to yellow over green, and the train moves off at a very low speed down the rockaway line, unfortunately where i'm headed to. it pulls out to reveal another train of 44's on the center track waiting. presumably this is a rockaway train, the center track can't go to lefferts, i don't think. another rockaway train comes in behind on the local, and this one goes off first. the train on the express might still be there for all i know. all that happens then is the train i'm on creeps behind the disabled train to howard beach, where it's stashed on the center tracks, and "normal" service resumes.
on the return trip i was trying to get a 7 at times sq, one was sitting in the station closed up and empty. when the green lights came on, it headed out, revealing a door indicator stuck in the "on" position on the 9th car, which was either 9402 or 9403. i don't think the subway cars care much for this heat either.
I agree with you that undercover cops are not hard to spot, they almost always wear baseball type jerseys, I this more less, sorta covers those incredibly bulky bullet proof vests they wear. And there is usually something about them when they (often enormous white guys) try to "blend in" at station that are mostly minority (let's say 137/Broadway). It is almost comical that they catch anyone at all.
TBBT seems to be using more minority decoy cops, I personally know 3 of them, 2 black and 1 Puerto Rican.
I still haven't seen a posting that presents facts as to why the W terminates at Pacific St. on weekends. Didn't the B (before the Manhattan Bridge flip) go from Brooklyn to Manhattan (and Queensbridge) on the weekends? And before the Christie St. connection was made, the West End, Sea Beach and Brighton trains all used the bridge on weekdays and weekends between Brooklyn and Manhattan, as far as I know.
I imagine the "surviving" weekend bridge train, the Q, must be jammed with people from the 4th Ave. N/R/W lines transferring to it at Pacific St. or DeKalb Ave. If there were at least 2, and generally 3 express lines using the bridge on weekends before the flip, why is the W truncated now? Is this permanent, or is there some construction or maintenance project that requires it, for some reason?
I hope someone can provide the reason for what seems to be a purely arbitrary downgrade of service. If there was ridership justifying at least one 4th Ave. bridge-bound express on weekends in the past (meaning service from at least one of all the south Brooklyn lines funneling into the 4th Ave. subway), there is the same, if not more, need now, with increased ridership.
So why the cutback?
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
[I still haven't seen a posting that presents facts as to why the W terminates at Pacific St. on weekends. Didn't the B (before the Manhattan Bridge flip) go from Brooklyn to Manhattan (and Queensbridge) on the weekends? And before the Christie St. connection was made, the West End, Sea Beach and Brighton trains all used the bridge on weekdays and weekends between Brooklyn and Manhattan, as far as I know.
I imagine the "surviving" weekend bridge train, the Q, must be jammed with people from the 4th Ave. N/R/W lines transferring to it at Pacific St. or DeKalb Ave. If there were at least 2, and generally 3 express lines using the bridge on weekends before the flip, why is the W truncated now? Is this permanent, or is there some construction or maintenance project that requires it, for some reason?]
For someone who "hasn't seen a posting" explaining the W truncation on weekends, you explained it to a T.
As has been explained on SubTalk at least a dozen times by now, there will be so much weekend construction on and around the bridge that the south-side tracks will be OUT of service on weekends far more often than they're IN service. In those instances, the N, Q, and R would use the tunnel and the W would be truncated at Pacific. Since the W will end up being truncated on most weekends anyway, it might as well be kept short - that lets Transit avoid paying all those additional crews who would be doing nothing most of the time. (That's also why the M can't be sent through the tunnel on weekends.)
I don't think I explained it to a "T" at all. You write there will be much south side bridge construction on weekends. Wasn't the bridge flip done after the south side bridge construction was completed? So it wan't completed? What south side bridge construction is underway, on the "completed" south side?
You write that the W will be truncated on weekends anyway. Why do you think will the W be truncated anyway? As I wrote earlier, the Sea Beach, West End and Brighton lines all ran over the bridge on weekends, as expresses in Manhattan, and had the ridership to maintain that. On weekends, ridership to lower Manhattan destinations is much lower than to mid-town Manhattan. Isn't the inconvenience caused by having two tunnel locals and no bridge express from the 4th Ave. trunk line obvious, and inconsistent with rider destinations? And if the south side tracks will be worked on, on weekends, wny not terminate the Q at Atlantic Ave. on weekends?
Mike Rothenberg
Mike: The Sea Beach over the Manhattan Bridge. What a novel thought.
Look at the track maps. The only line that can terminate is whichever one is on the express tracks at Pacific. The locals can't get to the express tracks north of the switches at 36th and there are no crossovers on the Q anywhere between Prospect Park and Herald Square.
Personally, I think it's more likely that the three services (N/Q/R) will have to run together over the bridge, not through the tunnel. Already this week, the Brooklyn-bound N has been running via bridge overnight, although it doesn't have to contend with the R at the same time. But we'll see what happens.
[I don't think I explained it to a "T" at all. You write there will be much south side bridge construction on weekends. Wasn't the bridge flip done after the south side bridge construction was completed? So it wan't completed? What south side bridge construction is underway, on the "completed" south side?]
As you are FULLY aware from numerous SubTalk threads, there's still some work to be done at or near the portals, which will remove the south side tracks from service on all but 40 or so weekends over the next three years; refer to those threads for specifics. AND it was NYCDOT's decision to evict the trains from the north side of NYCDOT's bridge before the "completed" south side work was finished. Ask NYCDOT or Rudy for the reasons.
-----
[You write that the W will be truncated on weekends anyway. Why do you think will the W be truncated anyway? As I wrote earlier, the Sea Beach, West End and Brighton lines all ran over the bridge on weekends, as expresses in Manhattan, and had the ridership to maintain that. On weekends, ridership to lower Manhattan destinations is much lower than to mid-town Manhattan. Isn't the inconvenience caused by having two tunnel locals and no bridge express from the 4th Ave. trunk line obvious, and inconsistent with rider destinations? And if the south side tracks will be worked on, on weekends, wny not terminate the Q at Atlantic Ave. on weekends?]
As you are FULLY aware, ridership is far higher on the Brighton Line than on the West End or Sea Beach Lines. Thus, truncating the W disserves fewer people than truncating the Q. (Actually, the lowest "social cost" would come from truncating the N at Pacific and running the W thru the tunnel to Astoria. Ah, politics!)
Okay, so the bridge had three express services once upon a year. As a Brooklyn-born singer/songwriter once said, "used-to-be's don't count anymore" - especially with construction that precludes full or any use of the bridge. Once all the work is done, the bridge may again have three expresses.
Gotham,
Ridership is certainly higher on the Brighton line than the 4th Ave., Sea Beach or West End lines. But as components of the 4th Ave. trunk line, all together they serve a hefty number of passengers and I think they do need to have their needs met, without overcrowding the already-crowded Brighton line.
Actually, your use of the term "lowest social cost" is useful. All efforts should be made to inconvenience the smallest number of people and, therefore, your idea of truncating the N, rather than the W, on weekends, makes sense. Could you imagine truncating the Q? Of course that would be sheer madness.
Following your thought, I'd still have the W go to Astoria on weekends, but via the bridge. It is clear that weekend riders from Brooklyn are going to mid-town Manhattan. And mostly to the express stops, I think. Why inconvenience them by having them travel the long, time-consuming route through the tunnel as a local.
As far as Astoria riders are concerned, they will be able to get used to an N on weekdays/W on weekends service. As far as Brooklyn riders are concerned, the N truncation would inconvenience fewer riders than the W truncation. And having only one (R) service through the tunnel on weekends would serve the smaller rider needs through lower Manhattan.
In a way, this W-replaces-N approach is similar to what used to be the way Brighton weekend service was handled, if I remember correctly. There was only the Brighton local, but on weekends it went via the bridge and operated express in Manhattan (I think it was nicknamed the "bridge local"). During those periods, only the 4th Ave. local served lower Manhattan and I think this worked well. So why not distribute the service on weekends between mid town and lower Manhattan in a way that matches rider destinations? Yes, it had three express services years ago, but with consideration of any ongoing south side construction, shouldn't the goal today still be to provide service in proportion to the destinations of riders in a way that makes the trip as short as possible? That makes sense to me and that calls for a weekend W bridge service replacing the weekend N tunnel service.
What do you think?
Mike Rothenberg
[Following your thought, I'd still have the W go to Astoria on weekends, but via the bridge. It is clear that weekend riders from Brooklyn are going to mid-town Manhattan. And mostly to the express stops, I think. Why inconvenience them by having them travel the long, time-consuming route through the tunnel as a local.]
Okay, so we agree on that. Now, please read my earier responses AND numerous other SubTalkers' posts on this subject. Weekend riders can't go anywhere "via the bridge" IF THE BRIDGE IS NOT AVAILABLE. (Please repeat that three times, fast.)
Let's review this again for anybody who was only pretending to pay attention the first gazillion times: For all but a handful of weekends over the next three years, the "completed" south side bridge tracks will NOT BE AVAILABLE. This means that the entire Broadway Line (which has 4 routes) will be forced through the Montague Tunnel (which can handle only 3 routes). Therefore, one route must be truncated in Brooklyn. The N is the best candidate, but it has to run through for political reasons. The R is the next best, but it has to run through to cover the Queens Blvd local (and go to Jamaica Center when the E is suspended). That leaves the Q or the W; pick one.
So are you saying there is more construction to be done on the south side? Wasn't that supposed to be finished already?
Perhaps the construction is not on the bridge itself but on the trackways from/to Dekalb avenue?
If the Q goes via tunnel then it's gonna suck. Weekends are bad enough with the subways, we don't need to have the bridge closed on top of that.
Gotham makes it clear that the Manhattan Bridge south side tracks will be off-limits to trains most weekends over the next three (?) years. I guess at least one service will be able to do it (Q), at times. You cannot tell from the MTA web pages on the bridge reconstruction that any of what he details is happening. To the reader, it seemed reconstruction was completed. Thanks for the education. I didn't mean to seem stubborn.
Sorry, Qtraindash7, it seems even the Q will be tunnel-bound most weekends. Does anyone really know what is being done to make the "bridge flip" more like a "bridge flop"? What will be the overall benefit to this continuing reconstruction?
There's a limit to how many trains can go through the tunnel. Obviously, the Q beats the W in getting "preferential treatment". The W should get "referential treatment over" the N, but it's too much to expect the MTA to be consistent, I guess.
If only the Rutgers connection had been built....
Mike Rothenberg
The W going any further than 36th street is more of a convenience than anything. N and R trains can cover the stretch from 36th to Pacific, although there would be no express service. Having trains go over the south side of the bridge is also unnecesary. And finally, 2 trains going from Astoria to 14th street and making all the same stops is unnecesary. All in all, the W above 36th St. simply supplements already existing lines.
All of the above listed unnecesarities are useful during the week, especially rush hours, because they save riders time. During the weekend, cutting back on the W only makes riders lose a few minutes at most and allows the transit to save some money in the process.
I disagree with you.
The 4th Ave. trunk line needs a weekend express. It had two in the past and needs one now. The great majority of people using the N and R lines on weekends don't want to go to lower Manhattan destinations, but mid-town. Forcing them to switch at De Kalb Ave. to the probably already crowded Q is the undesirable alternative to the longer tunnel route that gets them to their destination later than the way it used to be.
As I wrote in response to Gotham Bus Co. (previous response to my posting), the Sea Beach, West End and Brighton lines all had bridge trains on weekends that ran express in Manhattan. This truncation is clearly inconvenient to most people from Southern Brooklyn to Manhattan. What a way to improve service!
As to service from Astoria, the W weekend service from Coney Island should end at 57th St., as the Q does now.
Did you know that the Brighton, Sea Beach and West End express service to Manhattan, on all days, before the Christie St. connection was built, ended at Times Square? All three services were able to be handled, even during the rush hour, with efficient reversing using the crossover on the express tracks between Times Square and 49th St. Later, the express service northern terminal was extended to 57th St.
So if it could be, and was, done then, why not now? And if there's still extensive south side bridge construction, as Gotham Bus Co. wrote, then why was the bridge flip done?
Mike Rothenberg
Mike: Yes I knew about those three lines terminating at Times Square, then going to 49th Street in order to get re-tracked. And yes, it did work very well to have three lines go from there to Coney Island over the Manhattan Bridge. Perhaps you can be more persuasive in getting someone to listen to the mess this new confiiguration has become. I hear complaints all the time from some of my buddies on this site, but for me to whine on this get old since I do it all the time. There is no reason for the Sea Beach not to become an express, at least on weekends, and use the bridge as a faster way to Brooklyn and avoid the bowels of lower Manhattan. The R can take care of that.
Fred,
You can read my second response to Gotham, above. I'd say that if W ridership is higher than N ridership (I'd seen the figures here a few months ago) then, sorry to say, if one service needs to be truncated on weekends so that the fewest people are inconvenienced (a reasonable goal), then the N is the one to be truncated. The W would then run to Astoria using the bridge, on weekends. You are correct that the R can take care of lower Manhattan on weekends. Of course if three services can be run on the bridge on weekends, then the N should become a bridge train.
In the pre-Christie St. days, the Brighton local ran through lower Manhattan and the tunnel while the express was a bridge service. I wonder why, now that (in a way) the "old" Broadway configuration is back, the MTA didn't use the same approach: the R and circle Q are local tunnel trains, the N, diamond Q and W are express bridge trains.
I guess the many-decade operations of the past, demographically, aren't valid today. Or could the MTA just be screwing up?
Mike Rothenberg
You're right especially during the summer. They could run the "W" express on 4th Avenue in Brooklyn and then it continues on the West End Line to Coney ISland. They could also make the "N" Sea Beach line train express on 4th Avenue on run that train over the Manhattan Bridge in addition to the Montague Street tunnel.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
When the Stillwell Ave. station is "out of commission" to trains, will all lines that woun't be able to use it be cut back at the same time? From what I read, that would leave only the W able to reach it. Will the W get additional service because of that?
Mike Rothenberg
hi,
i wonder if you can help me with an inquiry about the lrv vehicles
in st.louis.
according to my knowledge these cars are numberd 1001 ff, 2001ff
and 3001ff.
can you pls tell me what the differences are between the 3 series.
thanks a lot
helkai
Try Light Rail Central at www.lightrail.com.
They have a lot of detail & photos from most of the systems.
Mr t__:^)
Well, it looks like the PCCs of the Newark City Subway are REALY going to be taken out of service at the end of this month, so lets do the absolutely last field trip there ?
These PCCs from the 40s first saw service for Twin Cities Rapid Transit, but they've been in Newark since 1952. You'll be amazied at the great condition. Next month they'll be replaced by the same LRVs that ply the HBLR system.
The date is Thursday August 24th.
I'll be starting again at Main Street on the Flushing line, so those who want to ALSO do on another trip on the Red Birds meet me there (e-mail me to arrange a time, I can be there at 3:15 or wait to
about 4:15).
Un-official meeting place will be Sbarro's resturant next to Borders & Lechters in the World Trade Centre complex. There is a side area in Sbarro's with some tables, if it's closed at this time I'll be
doing a light supper in the main area.
Official meeting place is the head end of PATH platform to Newark/Penn Station at 6 PM (note there are two platforms, so make sure you look for the sign to the Newark trains ... it's platform "C"). You can buy a two trip pass upstairs. I suggest buying two each of these, as you'll need three fares & if you want to save one you can't use the last ride (the machine will eat it). We'll take PATH across the meadows, draw & highway bridges, past freight yards & Amtrak/NJ Transit lines to Penn Station, Newark. There we'll go downstairs & catch the Newark City Subway. Again you'll need to buy a ticket in advance from a machine. Buy two fares.
First stop will be Orange Street, the only part of the line that is still street running. It will be a great photo op. Now it's on to Franklin, the CURRENT end of the line. We'll look at the tracks that
continue, take a few more photos, then wait for the next PCC.
Back at Newark will get back on PATH & take it one stop for a photo op at Harrison. There is usually a lot of Amtrak/NJ Transit activity going past here. We'll take a vote on Grove Street or Exchange Place ... the latter is a very deep station with an interesting long esclator that we can go up & down once. Now it's on to Hoboken to view the NJ Transit/Metro-North tracks, ferry slip & fine view of Manhattan from the other side of the Hudson river. Our last ride on PATH will take us to 33rd Street. Those in the front may be able to see the bell mouth of what was going to be a extension of the line as we turn north after Christopher Street. We'll also go past the abandoned
station at 19th Street.
The trip is on rain or shine.
Mr t__:^)
The date is Thursday August 24th.
My calendar says Aug 24 is Friday.
THE TRIP IS ON THE 23rd of August.
We don't want to travel on the 24th to try to avoid crowds of railfans getting their last ride in. >G<
My Calendar says the 24th is a Thursday.
The year is 2000, right?
Boy oh boy, I can sure depend on you guys to keep me honest.
Thanks for all your support.
More importantly, I have a "core group" already committed, any one else interested is welcome to join us.
(hmmm I shouldn't say committed now that heypaul is back)
Mr t__:^)
[The date is Thursday August 24th.]
That's Thursday, August 23rd, Mr. T.
BMTman
Opps ... you are correct O man from Canarsie, thanks for the correction.
O man?
Peace,
ANDEE
from Canarsie?
Peace,
ANDEE
Why two fares on the Newark City Subway? I thought, now that it's POP, that a single fare is valid for 1.5 hours. We won't be riding for longer than that, will we?
Last trip, it took so long that BMTman was stopped by the cops for an expired ticket! :-)
Is the 90-minute time limit enforced strictly? In other words, did the cops let him go or did they charge him the full fine as though he was a full-fledged farebeater?
The cop did give him a warning and let him go, but I do recall someone taking a picture of him with heypaul and the police officer.
We took a trip out and we walked to the new station/yard of the LRV's for the Newark Subway. With that added trip in I suggested to all to by a 2nd ticket. True when we got on the PCC we still had time (about 3 minutes) left on the ticket but true to form Mr. BMTMan did not by a tix and would take his chance.
Now we all know those PCC's can move but they can't get to Penn Station in 3 minutes...
When we got off at Penn at the escalator that goes up they were checking tickets. BAM, Mr. BMTMan was asked to step to the side and wait.
We all went up the escalator not knowing this (I was ahead of him). Looking back down, HeyPaul and BMTMan were filling out forms. I took a pix from the top of the escalator, BMTMan thought NJT was taking the picture so don't tell him.
They just gave him a warning but the did ask for picture ID and recorded his vitals.
Seems Mr. BMTMan has trouble with the law on occasion.
But I hear that his slave arrangement with the enforcement agent may lead to something more substantial.
Peace,
ANDEE
To pull a famous quote: "You're a sick man Rico.."
Too bad Heypaul didn't have his gas grill with him....
Isn't it amazing some of things we remember ?
I think the first time he used the "gas grill" comment was in relation to a comment about an ERA meeting.
Mr t__:^)
Worse. I was taken to the sub-basement where I was flogged by a pair of midgets and then tortured further with reruns of 'Gilligan's Island'.
After about 5 hours later (and totally out-of-it) I was released in the custody of heypaul.
Talk about horrid treatment...
BMTman
AHHH..but heypaul tells me you loved the midgets.
Peace,
ANDEE
...or were they dwarfs....I'm not sure anymore....
Munchkins, perhaps?:-)
Count yer damned blessings, bro ... up here, they tie you to a chair and put you through an entire Andy Griffith marathon weekend. And no smokes. :)
OOOH, Doug likes being tied to a chair...or anything for that matter...but, that's only hearsay.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, but Andy Griffith ... think about THAT won't you? No wonder the repeat offender rates are so low up here. :)
LOL!
I'll drop token for ya any time, guy ... I swear, you'll do anything for attention. Heh.
when i was with doug and the ticket enforcement agent in newark, i was trying to convince her to sentence him to 6 months of spending 2 hours each day reading the crap that gets posted here at subtalk by its core crew of know-it-all, self righteous windbags...
Heh. I take it they nailed YOU too then. :)
Well I see you're NOT AWOL after all....
LOL! ROTFLMAO!
BMTman is presently required to be a slave of the enforcement agent for two days a month for the next 4 months.
Peace,
ANDEE
As long as they didn't make him drive spikes for the Newark subway's new ROW ... I think he's done enough of that "chain gang" stuff already this year. Heh.
See my post about his slave arrangement.
Peace,
ANDEE
Kinky ... didn't know it was like that. =)
He was sentenced to be the enforcement agent's butler.
Nah, he was trying to sneak on for free...I have PROFF
Peace,
ANDEE
This will be similar to the June 4, 1999 trip then. Count me In. I must say goodbye to my beloved trollys.
wayne
Yes, was looking at the group shot taken that day. I'm looking forward to the PATH as well as Newark PCC trip.
Mr t__:^)
And if you get stopped for Fare Evasion we are not waiting THIS TIME!!
.
T, I am going to try to be there. I've never rode on a PCC. I may be able to meet your early freind too. Look for my E-mail, tommorow AM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, et., al., that has never been ... this is a great trip. No Hippos on the PATH & the PCCs do very nicely too. If you've been thinking, well maybe ... no no do it, you will be glad you came along.
BTW, I suggest to another SubTalker, who can't come on a week-day that he should consider a PATH, HBLR, PCC trip on a Saturday or Sunday. I did HBLR on a cold Saturday with my grandson ... no crowds & great railfanning.
Mr t__:^)
No PCCs on weekends. Unless something has changed (and don't bother looking on the NJT web site), the NCS is replaced by bus service on weekends. PATH and HBLR run, of course.
Yes, I should have know that. Thanks for the correction David.
Mr t__:^)
Give those PCCs my regards. Looks as if I'm going to miss out on riding them. Such a pity...
Thurston, what time do you expect to be in Newark? If at all possible, I'll meet you there - Jr. too, if that's not when he's in Maryland with his sister for a few days (think it might be, though).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Subway Cars Can't Deliver" is the misleading headline over a Daily News article that says 2% to 3% of the subway cars have mal- or non-functioning air conditioning.
I suppose that if the headline said "Subway cars deliver" and the article said that 97% to 98% of the cars had working air conditioning, nobody would read it.
I have to say the past 2 days on the No.2 Line I had a total of 5 Hot cars. Today I have 3 hot cars all on the on side.
Hey! I've been posting midnights in 207, concourse, East NY, and Jamaica yards this week. We've been working like dogs all week in the yards drilling hot cars into the barn and getting them out of service. If we miss a few I'm sorry, but we're trying to do our best with getting our customers a comfortable ride.
This weather we've had lately is an anomaly and unfortunately TA didn't plan ahead for this. Most of these yard guys have a lot of students training with them. And for any of you yard T/O trainers that read this, Thanks for doing a tough job with us dopey students along to slow you down.
Whatta you mean "us" damn dopey students? Speak fer yourself...(and for The Stewardess, Ray-tard, The Manitoban and No-CHANce-of-making-it)
...are you the Eggman?
LOL! Bruiser is venting. That's OK. It's hot out there too. Love the names! Manitoban(who)?
...are you the BANANA? MORE SUGAR!!
It's hard when there aren't enough cars, enough barn space and enough CED personnel to go around. RCI's give the sign of the cross and they go back out to make more nickels. :)
Excellent point Bob. Let me just add a bit of information to the thread. The Daily News Statistics come from a survey done weekly. However, this survey will indicate a car as hot if one of the two AC units is not functioning (a 1/2 hot car). Since EPA regulations are so stringent, we just can't charge a non-functioning end and send the car out and then repair it later. If you put 30 Lbs of R-22 into a car, you better have a documented repair to show the EPA and the repair had better be done by a certified car inspector. Hence, we just can't turn hot cars around and send them back out nor can we rush repairs. Never-the-less, 1/2 hot cars may not be as comfortable as some would like but are usable if necessary.
The writer of this post is not responsible for spelling or gramatical errors contained within. He is only responsible for the content as it relates to the subject matter!
thats right! because every car in the system is functioning well on air. i have not met a not workinc ac except on time on the 5 line. those ac's work very well because as soon as i step into the car, my sweat disappears
NEWSDAY ARTICLE on the recent (and not so recent) draggings.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoa, an article in a newspaper that actually sheds some intelligent light on the problem, instead of blaming it on conductors or equipment. I'd never expect something like this, especially not in a place like New York.
Nice find Andee
thanks
With all the new gadgets being put on subway trains, how about something that would beep in the conductors cab when something is in the doors. It would beep until all doors were clear. Just a thought. I would assume it would be hard to tell if the foot of someone four cars away were stuck in a door. Even with 20/20 vision, something I know nothing about, I would assume it would be hard.
That's a great idea. Currently, the conductor only has:
1) His 'indication lights' that tell him there's a problem in one zone.
2) 'Guard lights' that tell him which car has the problem.
3) A 'fault light' that tells him which specific door has the problem.
Yeah, I can see where something gong beep-beep-beep could really be a big help to a conductor. Of course he might get confused and think a garbage truck was backing up. But it's a great idea, none the less.
No train dude, the beeping is for ADA compliance for all the Visually Impaired C/R's out there.
Hahahahaha ... is THAT what those seeing-eye poodles were doing in the tunnels?
Well ye old bottleneck at DeKalb backed up this morning with a train "with mechanical difficulties" on the bridge. Got on a Q local train at 7:15am got off the W at QBP at 9:20am.
Our Q went through the tunnel local to 34th, held up a W on the express track so the Q could switch to express.
Interesting mess at DeKalb with people running back and forth from the Q on the Bridge Track and the Q on Tunnel Track.
I wonder why no one from the TA even said Brakes in Emergency (BIE) the normal excuse; I wonder what the mechanical problem was.
The TA dose not say BIE to people becouse most of them do not know what it means.
Robert
I have heard many times crew state that we are delayed due to a train with its emergancy brakes activated. I used "BIE" as a short hand in my post. I am sorry if that was confusing. It looks like I'll have to add my own disclaimer as well to my posts.
G.O. on the Brighton has the Circle Q running express Prospect Park to the Highway this weekend.
Any one know why?
Could this be the normal Tree Cutting that was done the past two years during the week in August?
Thanks.
Yes, I'm looking for a nice express jaunt down to Stillwell on Sunday (with no transfer required at Brighton Beach or Sheepshead Bay!), followed by an express jaunt back up on the W.
At least I assume the W is running express on the Sea Beach. The announcement implies it isn't (by recommending the transfer at New Utrecht), but (a) rerouted trains on the Sea Beach always run express; (b) the W GO overlaps a GO that sends the N itself express, and surely the N wouldn't run express while the W makes all stops; (c) there isn't much point in a weekend W that doesn't make any West End stops, so the northbound W might as well get to Pacific as fast as it can so it can turn around and do something useful; and (d) the same error has crept into many other GO announcements.
Anybody know for sure?
Last evening (8/8/01) I was booked on 2168, the Acela Express 5PM departure from NYP to BOS. The train was posted as 40 min late on departure from NYP (late arrival of equipment from WAS). When we finally boarded at 5:40, we were told we were going to hold until 6PM. It seems that the following train, 2170 never made it out of WAS, due to a "minor derailment of a freight" in the WAS area, which blocked the track. So 2170's passengers from WAS were put on a later Metrolinter. But we held until 6PM to gather up the NYP-boarding passengers heading northbound. This caused our train to nearly fill (there were a few empty seats here and there) with the double load. The cafe car, unprepared for this load, ran out of many selections (including the popular hamburger, hot dog, and pizza!). Things were rather slow between NYP & Stamford, and we lost another 20 minutes, ending up 1:40 late into BOS.
But here's the interesting part: The conductor came through and "triple punched" all of 2168's passengers' receipts, and told us about the Service Guarantee. Sure enough, when I called AMTRAK Customer Relations later that evening, the agent immediately offered to send me a voucher for 50% of the cost of the leg that was late. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOUR AIRLINE DID THAT?
Don't do that. Amtrak needs the money. Suck it up for the good of the country.
Screw that. If you can't deliver a product, I want my money back.
Maybe if Amtrak wants to save their asses, they should try getting their act together and delivering decent service. Until then, I'm more than willing to call up and demand a refund for services not rendered. Tough for them, I guess, but I don't have to do it with other RRs in the area (Metro-north)
I don't feel any duty, civic or otherwise, to look the otherway when Amtrak screws up. I don't see why anyone should.
Because you'll end up riding the bus when Amtrak goes bankrupt.
And I'll end up walking the Amtrak former routes to get to Boston! Yay! :-)
Actually, if Amtrak did abandon the NEC, it will probably be built over in no time. If I could extend my mortgage with my bank, I will buy a piece of the NEC as a momento.
Lexcie
Seriously, the NEC will survive as a passenger railroad in one form or another, regardless of whether the entity called "AMTRAK" runs it or not. It's too vital a transportation alternative. It's also in that part of the country where people actually think that public works are important and where support for rail transit alternatives is strongest. If by some strange turn of events passengers disappear from the line, NS and/or CSX will gobble it up in no time for freight service.
Isn't there some kind of law which requires freight railroads to provide passenger service? I thought I read this somewhere. Allowing Amtrak (or some other passenger railroad) trackage rights waives this law.
I really don't know if this is true or not.
Anyway, I'm sure CSX or NS would pick up some of the passenger service if Amtrak sold the NEC. They could probably buy up old Amtrak equipment and run their own passenger trains. Maybe then there would actually be fare wars between CSX/NS like the Airlines have.
Shawn.
As far as I know, joining Amtrak waives this law. In the early 1970s, many roads paid a "joining fee" to join Amtrak, and Amtrak also inherited a lot of passenger equipment as part payment. Amtrak then paid the RR's for the crews under purchase-of-service contracts. Some roads did not join Amtrak, the most notable being D&RGW which held out until 1979, and Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific which could not afford the joining fees.
Freight railroads are no longer required to provide passenger service once they had "joined" Amtrak. As for the legal position for a road which bought out a bankrupt road that didn't join Amtrak (e.g. CP Rail's purchase of Rock Island), I am not sure. Maybe someone could sue CP for not providing passenger service over the ex-Rock trackage.
If they have joined Amtrak, and now if Amtrak no longer existed... would they now be required by law to provide passenger service? :) I'm sure someone would have something to saw about that.
Shawn.
I'd be curious to see exactly how such would be legally since then-existing roads are mostly part of some mega-merged "railroad" that is part of some mega-corporation. Then again did bowing out of the business 30 years ago end all future responsibility for successor systems?
Just for a thought on another post I doubt any of the present operators would be gung-ho on restoring passenger service anywhere knowing how freight roads were so anxious to dump money losing service back when. The last ditch efforts in competing were in the early 50's...I still remember radio commercials and magazine ads from then. By the time Amtrak was created there wasn't much spirit left in the railroad industry and passenger services were happily unloaded. I doubt the situation would be much different today unless things like land cruises with high prices and relaxed schedules meaning no delays to their freights [as if management doesn't do enough of that]might go over. Except for POSSIBLY some of the new high speed equipment which doesn't seem to make much difference from schedules of 50 years ago the glory days are gone.
Wait a minute. Doesn't this depend on how much people are willing to pay for passenger service? If Congress decided to, instead of paying Amtrak, they were going to pay the freight railroads for operating passenger trains, to the extent that the revenue from a 20-car passenger train exceed the revenue from a 90-car intermodal... Now we'll see who's talking.
Unfortuantely, Congress isn't going to do that.
As I understand it, CP purchased certain physical assets of the bankrupt Rock Island, not the actual railroad operation itself, and hence could not be forced to institute any form of passenger service under the old law - assuming that the old law still is in effect, which I'm not sure about.
Another holdout railroad was the Southern, which operated the Crescent for a number of years before finally joining Amtrak.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another holdout railroad was the Southern, which operated the Crescent for a number of years before finally joining Amtrak.
Really? Are you sure the railroad companies joined AMTRAK? I remember reading about a history of how AMTRAK started its business in 1971, when that was the time when all of the commuter railroads were running out (of some kind of business) and they made their final trips when AMTRAK set off its first, Clocker service from NYP to Philadelphia in 1971.
Unfortunately, I think it will be hard for me to locate that historical site again. But I learned a lot from it, even when the "glory days" back then were being shattered with the new invention of automobiles, the Wrights' Brothers' aircraft, and the Post Office decided to stop delivering its mail on trains.
I guess AMTRAK had something to do with passenger rail growth.
Railfan Pete.
Another holdout railroad was the Southern, which operated the Crescent for a number of years before finally joining Amtrak.
That means that the Southern conveyed its passenger business to Amtrak years after Amtrak was formed. Southern chose not to join right away because Southern's standards were too high. During that period, the Crescent (Amtrak NY to DC, Southern DC to New Orleans) was considered the classiest train in the East.
Amtrak took over intercity passenger service. The railroads still ran their commuter service. When Conrail came into existance in 1976 as a "freight-only" railroad, they seemed to be surprised to find out that they ran a lot of commuter trains. These operations eventually became SEPTA, NJT, Metro North, et. al.
Really? Wow. I wanted to see the Predecessors of NJT rail service, but Michael Steinberg (webmaster of www.hobokenterminal.com), hasn't updated it yet.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Go to the RR Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg. There's a Penn-Central 1920s EMU car sitting there, in Penn Central green paint and with the mating worms logo peeling off (cuz it was applied in vinyl). I thought commuting here was bad, then I saw that car...
I guess AMTRAK had something to do with passenger rail growth.
Actually, Amtrak had a lot to do with ending passenger rail service in many parts of the country when it came into being in 1971. But what passenger service existed prior to Amtrak's creation had deteriorated to the point where almost no one rode it, so that was somewhat of a moot point - it might as well have not existed anyway. Although it took a few years, Amtrak has been responsible for a dramatic increase in the quality of rail passenger service in this country. I'm old enough to remember riding the premier passenger service on the Pennsylvania Railroad (the Broadway Limited from New York to Chicago especially), the New York Central, the C&O, the Seaboard Air Line (before its merger with the Atlantic Coast Line), and others, but even then (late '50s, early '60s) it was a struggling vestige of what it had been back when my parents and grandparents rode it in the '20s and '30s - and the premium name trains were just a small part of what the railroads ran. Passenger service lost money, certainly by the early '50s if not before, and railroads simply ran it because the law required them to do so. The creation of Amtrak allowed them some relief from what had been a major burden.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As much as I might have a lot of nice thing to say about New York Central's freight operations in the early 1960s (prior to Penn Central, comparatively speaking they were doing better than PRR) -- the NYC was almost ruthless in actively killing its passenger services. The PRR still ran its Broadway even after Penn-Central, and was even able to afford a pretty decent looking set of locomotives and stock for it (contrast with today's Pennsylvanian) -- but the NYC... they engaged in a game of breaking connexions. From what I understand, on the NYC ex-CCCI (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & Indianapolis) line, they changed the schedule such that a connecting person wanting to go from Cleveland to St. Louis via PRR had to wait some 23 hours at Cincinnati (rather than 1 hour as it was previously)... and by instituting this kind of schedule change, they were able to save money on maintenance of passenger stock, because now the St Louisan had less cars on it since there were less demand...
Can anyone confirm or deny what I have just alleged? I don't blame NYC one bit, they were acting in their best commercial interest. I just wondered if this was true.
I can't confirm the specific instance you have just cited, but I have heard of similar instances elsewhere along the NYC... and other railroads as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The person who introduced me to the concept of "railfan" showed me a New York Central (or maybe Penn Central; I don't remember the year)public timetable that showed a passenger train from Boston arriving in Albany 2 minutes after a train left Albany for Grand Central. The emloyee timetable showed the Boston train arriving in Albany 10 minutes before the departure of the NY-bound train.
Airlines are ALWAYS competing for the lowest fares to get those flyers on board their company planes. But if AMTRAK were to SELL the NEC successfully by a major rail company (i.e. CONRAIL - CSX, NS [NORFOLK SOUTHERN]) then I'll get to spend a LOT more time railfanning the chugging freight lines!
But signals and speed limits on various tracks and lines may project to be a problem. But AMTRAK wouldn't because they still haven't gotten ALL of the Acela Express trainsets onto the NEC, and I had a good time railfanning AMTRAK trains at Metuchen. I like the suction and the wind as it passes by us at a good 75-90mph.
Let's wait and make some suggestions...
Railfan Pete.
The NEC used to be Penn Central's freight mainline until Conrail took over. The ex-Reading/CNJ alignment via Allentown is now the NS mainline for freight in that area.
The reason NEC was 4 tracks? In fact, the reason PRR built 4 tracks on the NEC is not for their Congressionals and Broadway Limiteds -- they built it that way because they wanted to use the two inner tracks for freight and the two outer tracks for passenger (due to platforming). This is why sometimes at busy freight yards on the NEC, you see middle tracks duck under.
Until then, I'm more than willing to call up and demand a refund for services not rendered.
The only services I want them to render is to get me to my destination w/ out needing to use a bus. I don't care if my train is a few minutes late or if they run out of ice in the cafe car. Heck, a 30 min late train means 30 min more railfanning for me.
That's what I had in mind too. Although I want trains to be early and on time, if a train is running late, more railfanning time can be spent. Good deal!
And as for the Customer Service Guarantee, I think AMTRAK WAS generous for them to provide them that voucher. This is esp. for people who think bizaar of AMTRAK's performance guarantee:
1) AMTRAK WILL NOT abandon the NEC. Why would they if they already bought the MAJORITY of it? Amtrak had enough profit that they even bought Penn Sta. NY some year ago. (The NEC and NYC owned NYP prior to AMTRAK's purchase)
2) AMTRAK's service is bringing in tons of millions of dollars ($) in revenue funding and profit. Especially since the Acela Express has increased ridership to some 44,000 people. The good times of AMTRAK are rolling in and around these times.
3) If AMTRAK has posted and stated firmly a "Satisfaction Guarantee" message, then they WILL KEEP TO IT. You can find the link at www.amtrak.com or www.reservations.amtrak.com (the website has changed but it will redirect you.)
4) AMTRAK WILL NOT become bankrupt or "run out of business". AMTRAK has daily and frequent riders, and in the last fiscal year 2000, its profits increased to around $21-22 million. (I have last checked them around 6 months ago. Some figures may be inaccurate.)
5) If anyone STILL has questions, they can contact or get in touch with an AMTRAK officer, (I don't know if REDCAPS or dispatchers will help), or an AMTRAK representative on board AMTRAK trains. (I've seen two onboard today's Crescent train at Newark.
This may keep your thoughts from going abroad the limits of your minds. AMTRAK is a service that everyone can trust, and if it dare dissatisfy a customer, (and has notified AMTRAK) AMTRAK will take the next REWARDING action. (To a degree such as the experience felt by Todd Glickman).
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
AMTRAK WILL NOT abandon the NEC. Why would they...
Because Congress would mandate it.
I definitely don't see a reason why Congress will. The revenue money is rolling in (thanks to the reminder of Keystone Pete. and they have enough money for maintenance and tax (that's what revenue is about).
Railfan Pete.
I think there's a federal law saying that if Amtrak doesn't turn a profit by a certain date, it goes away. Can anyone confirm this?
Seth
If AMTRAK doesn't meet the revenue "dollars" needed to keep its system running, AMTRAK will be in A LOT OF DEBT at the end of FISCAL YEAR 2001. AMTRAK will not go down completely, it's just that AMTRAK will have a LOT of shaping up to do, which might take quite some time.
I will really have more details when the reports come out at FISCAL YEAR 2001, but if anyone's an expert on this, maybe they could take the time to respond...
Responses will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
As far as I understand, the Amtrak deal is this -- Congress authorizes a budget for Amtrak every year, which is like a grant for operational expenses. Congress intends that this budget should be $0 (ZERO DOLLARS) in the financial year 2003-2004.
They also authorizes separately a grant for capital projects like Acela. For the capital budgets, this money will cease when the Acela scheme is completed. So, once all the Acela trainsets are in service and all the contractors (Bombardier, Beafour Beatty etc) are paid off, Amtrak will not have another dime from the Congress for capital investments, unless Congress decides to start another passenger railroad capital upgrade.
Amtrak Reform Council is trying to do something about this desparate situation. Amtrak as a corporation could go bankrupt (even though it is state-owned) if they continue to lose money the way they do now, after the Congressional grant ceases. They will either have to increase profits (probably in the express freight sector), borrow to keep alive, or sell their assets.
Thanks. I'll accept it as true.
Railfan Pete.
4) AMTRAK WILL NOT become bankrupt or "run out of business". AMTRAK has daily and frequent riders, and in the last fiscal year 2000, its profits increased to around $21-22 million. (I have last checked them around 6 months ago. Some figures may be inaccurate.)
I think you mean, "[Amtrak's] revenue increased..." No passenger train in the world turns a "profit" when you consider the costs of maintenance, infrastructure, depreciation, debt-service, labor, etc., etc. etc. Especially Amtrak, which is chronically underfunded. Amtrak is so far in the hole they just hocked Penn Station.
I was also wondering why Train #2170 did not leave Union Station. So I went to Union Station yesterday evening, and saw a lot of track workers around K Tower working on the derailed boxed cars of the northbound Silver Star.
Trainset #5, scheduled to run Train #2170, was still at Track 19, and clearly unable to move out of Track 19. Trainset #7 was stuck at Track 20.
Chaohwa
Good info, Chaohwa, thanks. I was pleasantly surprised by the timely and accurate info that AMTRAK gave to us during this delay. As opposed to the airlines, which say, "just five more minutes and we'll be on our way..." over and over!
This morning while inbound on the commuter rail from Mansfield to South Station, 2155 blew by right on schedule heading southbound. I wonder if 2153 was cancelled, or if they ran a spare trainset north overnight to take that trip?
Sure enough, when I called AMTRAK Customer Relations later that evening, the agent immediately offered to send me a voucher for 50% of the cost of the leg that was late.
Amtrak is actually getting cheap about these vouchers ...
A few months ago a 1-hour delay on Acela Regional merited a voucher worth 100% of the ticket cost, whether coach or business class, even if there was no "triple punch" on the ticket stub. Two of my friends were on such trains and got the vouchers after I told them about the service guarantee. They didn't even need to send in the ticket stub, just gave their name, address, and reservation number over the phone and the customer service rep verified the train's delay in the computer.
Not long afterwards I was on an Acela Regional train that was an hour late into NYP, and when I called Amtrak for a voucher I was told there was a $50 limit on vouchers for delayed trains unless my ticket had been specially punched. The rep on the phone wasn't clear about when that limit applied (presumably not for Acela Express), but I wasn't surprised that the earlier, more generous policy had been changed.
Not long afterwards I was on an Acela Regional train that was an hour late into NYP, and when I called Amtrak for a voucher I was told there was a $50 limit on vouchers for delayed trains unless my ticket had been specially punched. The rep on the phone wasn't clear about when that limit applied (presumably not for Acela Express), but I wasn't surprised that the earlier, more generous policy had been changed.
If you want the gist of AMTRAK's CUSTOMER SERVICE (SATISFACTION) GUARANTEE: visit www.amtrak.com and search for the button marked with a design "The AMTRAK Promise: Satisfaction Guaranteed" near the top. Then you will have to click on another link at the bottom to redeem your voucher and/or certificate.
Railfan Pete.
Sure, but my point is ...
At one time 100% of the ticket cost was eligible for the voucher if a delay adversely affects my trip. This is no longer true. Amtrak never had a published policy for the public on how much of your ticket would be credited in a voucher when the only reason is a delayed train (or for that matter, for any other reason), but apparently whatever internal policy that had regarding the matter was changed to reduce the amount you can get back.
Also, you can't redeem anything on line, you have to bring it to a ticket agent in person. The link is just more information.
I guess everyone trusts me to pipe up about this potentially interesting issue.
I have observed that Amtrak personnel (esp. Chicago crew) seem to always want to go an extra inch to help their customers -- PROVIDED THAT IT INVOLVED NO EFFORT ON THEIR PART. I have lots of nice things to say about Amtrak crew, but it seems to me that they are more ready to hand out compensation than they are to run around to ensure that the train leaves on time.
Now, there is a very simple reason for this -- Amtrak crew doesn't actually WANT Amtrak to become self-sufficient. Why? Because, if they keep on handing out congress $ to customers, then they may never have to run around like stressed airline employees trying to save their company the hotel bill for a 747's worth of passengers (and in the process probably saving their company from going under). Cynical perhaps, but it's probably close enough to being true for some employees.
I don't actually want Amtrak to go bankrupt, I don't actually want to break the "family atmosphere" that there is amongst employees of a national institution (such as it was on the British Rail in the 1980s). However, in today's cost effective world, economies must come first. So unless the management and the crew work together to deliver the product on time, as opposed to just relying on handing out congress $ to delayed passengers -- Amtrak will be no more in a few years, whether you and I like it or not.
The Amtrak Reform Council has done a sterling job in revamping Amtrak's image and installing a great business sectors approach by separating the NEC operations from the rest of the Amtrak. Many of the crew have received additional training and are now a lot more professional than they were a year ago. Great strides have been made. However, if the ARC doesn't get round to shaking up the production end of thing soon, there would be no need for any of this glittery marketing they have come up with.
Lexcie
This is good except that the crewes don't have that much to do with the trains being on time. It's not like they could go grab a shovel and fill in a washout or magically have the tempature drop 20 degrees so that the speed restrictions are lifted.
Here's one example:
I am a frequent traveller on the Three Rivers into Chicago. One day, due to CSX dispatching errors, we were 5 hours down when we reached Chicago Yard. The hostess announced over the PA that we would get into the yard, cut the freight off, then go straight into Union Station. I timed the freight action -- it cost about 1 minute from the time the train stopped to when the train started moving again towards Union Station. The ETH outage associated with the freight action was about 20 seconds in length.
On every other occasion I have taken the Three Rivers to Chicago, we sat in the yard for at least 5 minutes.
Difference? The crew on the late Three Rivers was operating with the level of efficiency often seen in the airline industry. This level of efficiency should be seen not only when the train is late -- and Amtrak needs to pay its crew enough to attract crew that are natually as efficient as the good lady conductor on the late Three Rivers.
Lexcie
Another favorite thread.
I like the third turnstile from the left at 34th st and 6th avenue, 35th street entrance. Just seeing it brings back memories of my youth.
Peace,
ANDEE
This one is easy.
"No Exit."
You know, there it was staring me right in the face and here I am going all nutty trying to figure out Beingness...Nothingness, etc, etc.
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Turnstiles? Hah!! Bring back the Ticket Chopper boxes. No I am not THAT old, but some were actually in use back in the early 1970's when you used a paper transfer between the #7 at Fifth Av and the 6th Av IND lines - the BB, D and F (I still have some of those).
Where else were there paper transfers? The Franklin Avenue shuttle was the last to be eliminated, but I'm sure there were others. Bus transfers and GO's don't count.
The Myrtle Avenue El at Bridge-Jay Streets to Jay Street-Borough Hall (A,E,F).
The Myrtle Av El (Bridge St Station) and the A train (Jay Street).
It was an interesting arrangement - at Bridge St you could get the paper ticket to go to the A train but to do it in reverse you could only get the transfer to the Myrtle when you paid a fare at the Bway-Nassau station. Why it was that way I have no idea.
I know you said Bus transfers don't count but these below were to make up for permanent loss of train service:
Bx55 (Third Av) to the Subway - either at Gun Hill Rd/White Plains Rd (#2) or at 3rd Av/149th St (#2, #5). These transfers are no longer given since the MetroCard allows the Bus to Subway transfer to occur.
At 121 St-Jamaica Av - from the J to local bus (I forget the route) to Sutphin Blvd. This was in effect while the Jamaica line was being connected to the Archer Av line.
9th Av - From the BMT West End (B now W) to the B39 (I think that is the bus) when the Culver shuttle was discontinued. I don't know if this one still has paper transfers.
These are the only ones I can think of at the moment.
The busses were the Q49 and B35.
Visit http://www.subtalklive.com/brooklynbus.html: undergoing major renovations.
You forgot the B54 for Myrtle and the B42 for Rockaway Parkway.
And the B24 for Broadway El service to Kent Avenue-survived into the eighties!
There were also paper transfers, and later paper MetroCards for the tansfer to/from Franklin Shuttle and the Fulton Street IND line. While the line was rebuilt, Prospect P{ark )on the Brighton) issued paper MetroCard transfers to the Franklin Shuttle replacement bus.Both vanished whern the shuttle reopened with combined entrance to the IND.
*shrugs*
I use all of them
no faves..
:-/
I liked the wooden ones on the CPW line that were still there until they were replaced by the modern MetroCard-ready ones.
The old iron maiden they had at 77th St and 4 Ave in Brooklyn. If you werent careful it would munch you up! :o>
wayne
The one made out of mostly metal, that has the rotating metal pieces. You know the ones I'm talking about, the metal things rotate in one direction almost freely, but for the other direction you need to pay first.
Aren't they ALL like that?
I think he is talking about the HEETs (High entrance Exit Turnstile). Mty favorite is the current AFC turnstile, followed by the old Perey metal turnstile(introduced late 1950s and found at stations such as 42 in Manhattan.It featured vertical 3 arm construction vs horizontal four arm wood construction.)
>>> Mty favorite is the current AFC turnstile, followed by the old Perey metal turnstile(introduced late 1950s <<<
Those things have no character. The wooden four arm horizontal turnstiles had that solidness about them, and of course the individuality of the grains of the wood were so much more aesthetically pleasing than the sameness of the three pronged metal monsters that followed them. Even the feel when you pushed them with a certain constant resistence throughout the push was more satisfying than the triangular ones which snapped out of the way when you pushed them.
I don't suppose any of them are operating anymore. They left with the fast trains and short headways.
Tom
I agree with this post..... and high honors
to the waist-high turnstyles one uses when
entering a roller coaster, or the New York
Public Library.
my favorite Turnstile is the Jamaica Center turnstile at the 153rd street entrance. I had a malfunctioning student MetroCard. The Railroad clerk gave me my first free subway ride. Then another time a Turnstile was malfunctioning. i had first dipped on the bus, it said student ok. Then it said at the turnstile go. usually it says Go one Xfer ok. I got 4 rides that day when a Student metrocard only gives you 3 rides with 3 Xfers
Now if we were not there and all there was between you and the trains was a HEET and the MVM, you wold still be waiting unless you walked to a location with a friendly neighborhood station agent! Keep the booths open!
Complete Bullshit.
He could have used a courtesy phone.
I was looking yesterday for any signs of stairs for the 18th street entrance. Does anyone know what side of the street they were located?
Another question. I was waiting for the G to Brooklyn at Queens Plaza and noticed new installed signals facing the opposite direction the G comes. What is the plan there?
There are none that i know of. it seems to be completely sealed under the concrete sidewalks. same goes for most other old IRT stops, so far as i know...
Tunnel man, its the only way to enter, When scuting for 91st entrance, we concluded that it was next to a basement chinese dry cleaners.
... i know that. It's why i haven't been back in quite a long long time. Interestingly, a few years back the sidewalk caved in there, and I believe the landlord of the building on the corner (or someone else) had to pay to have the sidewalk fixed. I'd imagine soemthing like that went to court though... who knows how it turned out.
Actually, no court gets involved with sidewalk repairs, at least not usually. The city sends the adjoining property owner a notice. If, after a certain period, the owner does not do the repair, the city does the repair and adds the cost to the owner's real estate tax bill. (OK, technically, it's a separate item; but it's billed and collected together with RE taxes, water and sewer charges, and I forget what all else.) Ultimately, if these kinds of charges are not paid, the city either forecloses the lien or sells it to someone else who forecloses.
I was looking yesterday for any signs of stairs for the 18th street entrance. Does anyone know what side of the street they were located?
As noted elsewhere, there are no traces of the stairways themselves visible from street level. It looks like the sidewalks in the area have been rebuilt since the station's closing.
On the SE corner of Park Avenue South and 18th Street, however, there is a hatchway that provides access to the N/B platform (it's often covered by a vendor's cart, at least during the daytime). It was used by rescuers after the 1991 Union Square wreck.
As far as your second question is concerned, I would imagine that there were entrances on both sides of the street, 18th having been one of the original mezzanine-less IRT stations.
I saw track workers using that hatchway in the late 1980's when I worked in the area.
In February '01 I also looked for this entrance, and thought I noticed a definite difference in the sidewalk at the SE corner of 18th and Park Avenue South, running parallel with 18th. I diecenred the outlien fo the old "kiosk" that sheilded the entrance to all the original IRT stations.
I also heard the story of the sidewalk collapse at W 91 St and Broadway- I think it took place in 1998. My understanding is that the property ownber had no clue about the abandoned station, but soon found out when the collapse took place. I understand that they tried to force him to pay for a TA engineer to figure out how to fix it. This seemd very unfair to me, as 91st Station, while unused, is TA property, and its proper maintainence and repair is outside the expertise of non TA folks. This is not like the Sedgewick abutments, which thet TA has completely forsesaken.
I don't know if this guy took the TA to court, or how it may have worked out.
And this time, it was because of my last post.
So, Sea Beach Fred #4, I would like to answer your last question, but the powers that be at this website did not like my commentary, and I respect that. So just send me an e-mail, and I'll be able to respond to you.
Since part of the thread included the question of what your handle means...
-Hank
What does it mean?
Lucha Libre AAA. It's the Mexican wrestling company that I love to death. And you all thought.........ahh better not say more, or we'll go off topic again.
I wanted to do some New Lots Avenue railfanning tomorrow. Are the 4 trains still terminating at Atlantic, or is that done? Is the 3 still running the shuttle from Franklin to New Lots? I haven't been out there for awhile.
You can take the 3 line to Newlots, or take the 5 line to NewLots after 7:pm or so, they run to New Lots from Dyre Avenue starting at about 7 from Dyre.Its only one way from Dyre Avenue.I image they run from to Newlots to somewhere in the Bronx in the morning.I know there is several trains from Dyre Avenue that do this.
You're right. I was just wondering if the construction is done yet. I'm going in the morning, but after rush hour, so I'll have to take a three. A very small number of 5's go to New Lots. Some terminated at Utica, and I've even heard some conductors say the last stop would be Atlantic.
If you want the gist of Subway Advisories: visit
www.mta.nyc.ny.us and on the left list of links, click on "Service Advisories" (updated every Friday).
As of now, the #4 line is running its REGULAR SERVICE, not terminating at Atlantic Av. The only service diversions on the #4 include the ones only running late nights and on weekends (SAT and SUN). Everything is normal on a weekday.
Looks like the #3 line completed its stretch of damaged tube from Franklin to New Lots Av. I can't find the advisory anymore. The only advisory in stock for this line is that the #3 line runs express between Franklin and Atlantic Avs. on weekends, so you shouldn't have a problem.
Good luck.
Railfan Pete.
IRT Railfanning Rules.... :)
1-2-3-9
The feature that let you see the IP Address of a poster on Subtalk?
I nixed it along with the database driven code (or was it with the passwords, I forget). Anyway with the passwords there's no reason why you'd need to second guess someone's identity via their IP address.
Unless someone sent you an e-mail that you wanted to match to a poster.
??
The IP I use to connect to the internet isn't where my mail comes from >G<. Not that I emailed ya.
So you never compose e-mail at the same computer that you access the internet?
How does that work?
I don't know about Lou, but I sent much (not all) of my email through a telnet session.
IP addresses are a tricky thing. if you go online via something like AOL, your IP can change over the course of your session. thus you can go on, with the same ocmputer, every day, and have different IPs appear...
Also, it's not terribly hard to 'spoof' an IP - that is to make sure you're computer is sending false IPs out... it's a fairly low-brow hacker trick.
The myth that an IP address can always lead one to the computer someone connected online to is just that: a myth.
Actually on a LAN your IP address can change by simply renewing it. That is of course assuming DHCP is being used.
Wayne
In a LAN situation, you have one IP for your computer, which is your network IP, that can change with DHCP, but you tunnel out of your Router/Hub and then you go to subtalk with your internet connection, that goes out on the real IP, so people don't see your network IP from the outside, they see your real IP, but inside the network they see your 192.168.xxx.xxx or 10.xxx IP!
You should see how my internet connection is setup DHCP and the works. I did a ping once and I'm still waiting... nah but lets just say it is built by the lowest bidder.
Yeah, but you have more than one poster with more than one ID.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe. If you think so maybe you could bring them to my attention privately. And the more time I have to spend playing netcop the more likely it is I'll get tired of it and just put the toys away.
>>>I'll get tired of it and just put the toys away. <<<
Go right ahead, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Peace,
ANDEE
There were extensive delays on the Brooklyn bound Q this morning. Does anyone know what happened and whether the Q will be ok for Manhatttan bound PM Rush??
When I rode the Q everything was ok
Train with mechanical difficulties on the bridge. My Q went tunnel then local to 34th. See my post from Thursday.
Is the following a new TA rule: "All conductors MUST, must, must, must, must NOT allow connections. If a conductor's train is in the station, and another pulls in across the platform, you must close your doors and not allow people to make the transfer. Any conductor who allows a transfer, will either be murdered or have his children murdered in front of him." Just wondering because in a month's span I have seen this happen at least a dozen times. I don't understand this, as it seems as if the conducters actually WAIT for the doors on your train to open before slamming theirs. The reason I'm so upset is that once on a Nostalgia Train, I heard some real TA conductors talk about how they purposely slam doors to make passengers miss their connections. I swear. It does seem that at least sometimes, it's done to annoy. I suspect it will stop when some rider hurls a glass bottle or throws a punch at a conductor. I wouldn't attack anyone, but with the frustration I feel when this happens, I'd damn sure laugh. It is, without a doubt, probably one of the worst feelings in the world. Especially when you want to connect to a 2 train, which has 120 minute headways.
>>>... it's done to annoy. <<<
True, by people who are in the wrong line of work and have no business being conductors, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Point well taken. :)
Doesn't closing your train doors while another conductor opens his doors get you murdered?
Obviously you are in no danger of catching mental health. Are you that disgruntled because you want to work for the TA and they won't have you? I personally think you are full of shit but I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself. Just answer two simple questions.
1) What was the conductor's badge number, who made that statement?
2) When is there ever a 2 hour headway on any NYCT line?
Obviously your charge is bullshit because you can't answer either question. Obviously you have no integrity or credibility to make such a rediculous charge.
It is the TA policy to hold trains to make reasonable connections at certain gap stations during off-peak hours and not hold trains for connections during peak hours. In addition, to make the outrageous statement that any organization would kill an employee or his children shows a total lack of maturity and self-control, regardless of how tongue in cheek it was meant to be. Get Help
The 120 was a typot, he meant 12. His other comment was sarcasm. If you couldn't tell you should be the one to get help.
No, he meant 120 = 2 hour headways. I guess he didn't major in sarcasm in college.
Why would anybody think the 2 train had 2 hour headways?
He has an affinity for hyperbole.
Where did tony say he meant 12 minutes in any subsequent post. He didn't correct the alleged 'type-o'. No offense mike, but how would a person with the IQ of a hamster, like you, know what he meant.
Dude, please don't insult hamsters. Insult Don Zimmer instead.
-Hank :)
(I've been exposed recently to 'Spacman')
Dude: Stop beating around the bush. Say what you mean!!!!!! You are really a work of art. Keep it up. No one can say they don't know where you stand on things. Sure beats a couple of mealy mouths I've run into on this site. Can't differentiate barf from branola.
Okay Fred, I'll try to be more upfront in the future. BTW, the Sea Beach Line Supt. is a neighbor of mine. We occasionally ride the same 5:29 Ronkonkoma train together. I've shown Mike a few of your posts & he's appreciative of your loyalty.
>>he's appreciative of your loyalty
LOL, more like fanaticism
Call it fanaticism if you want. I don't happen to agree. I don't even think it's loyalty to a system that deserves precious little from its employees. I think it's just a matter of right and wrong. When someone is wrong, they should be told so. If a connection is missed, one of two things have occurred. Either the connection was not made during rush hour because of policy or the connection was missed because of lateness or other factors. It is uncommon, to say the least,for a conductor to go out of his way to hurt commuters.
For those here who also happen to work at the TA, we see things from a slightly different perspective than the rest of you. If you come from an air conditioned office and have to ride home ina 1/2 hot car for an hour or so, that's unfortunate. What about the crew that's jackassing that garbage up and down the line all day? If you miss a connection and are delayed for 6 minutes (or even 10) that's unfortunate. What about the crew that gets in late and has to gulp their lunch in a hot & crowded crew room so they can make their next inteval on time?
When someone says monkeys can do a better job - and the closest they've ever come to doing that job is switching their lionels under a Christmas tree - that irks me. I've been doing what I do for over 20 years and I feel I do it pretty well. Even at 20 years, though, I'm still going to school and seminars to learn to do it better. When I was out in Queens I put out 111 trains every morning and managed more supervisors and hourly employees on one shift than are employeed at the average factory and clearly more than most of our younger subtalkers can conceive of. Today I have a smaller sphere of responsibility but it is at the top of the list. So when someone says a monkey can do better - you bet I'm going to take offense. It's called pride - and I take pride in the job I do.
I must say that even though I don't work in the TA, I have the same feeling. I'm proud of my dad (who is a TA employee, though now he seems to work federal, anyway..). Ever since I was little I always looked up to him, as most kids do. I can remeber wanting to do exactly the same thing as him when I was little. I can remeber pretending to 'drive' trains. So, yes, I take it somewhat personally when people say things about Transit workers. I know quite a few of my dad's colleagues- they're good people (some of them), and they don't try to mess with the riders intentionally. If something comes up, it comes up.
But subtalkers don't understand any of the things that You or I do. They refuse to comprehend that the employees of New York City Transit and the Metropolitan Transit Authority are humans. Subtalkers forget that these people have families, that they do this primarily so that they can provide food to eat for their families. Subtalkers magnify the mistakes of TA workers. TA worker couldn't do something right, let's get that guy fired (i.e. the whole post about unlocked 75' cars. Something is wrong, and right away people want to find ways to punish the Train Operator and Conductor. It's a good thing that this site isn't in the public spotlight. Otherwise people would never apply for jobs at transit, and the present workers would be leaving.
Yes, Tranist workers make mistakes. Yes, there are somethings that they should have done differently. But a few missed connections, and people instantly want to see heads roll. To all those subtalkers who do that, what about your job? Do you always do everything perfectly? Probably not.
So, if I take something personal, you know why. I really hate these opinions here about TA personel. And, yes I might indeed seem serious, but I guess I have the same feeling as Train Dude: that irks me.
>>When I was out in Queens I put out 111 trains every morning and managed more supervisors and hourly employees on one shift than are employeed at the average factory and clearly more than most of our younger subtalkers can conceive of.<<
Watch it. I might be young, but I can easily understand the amount of workers that you supervised each day.
In the navy we call you chief..
Chief..
Yes, Pride of your Job. Pride of the whole Organization.
BZ to you traindude.
I am a NYCT subway conductor, and as you stated, I take pride in my job. It's never an easy job. In fact, it's a thankless job.
How many times have I reopened doors on my train knowing I was running late just to accomodate a lady or a gentleman only to get no acknowledgement or "thank you"? How many times had I had my 30 minute lunch cut because there I had to jump ahead on a train to make an interval because there was no conductor to make it? How many times did I volunteer to make an extra trip after my job was finished "for the good of the service" even though I was dead tired? How many times have I been spit at, cursed at, and made a target of? Too many times, I tell you. And yet, I have not called in a sick day in three years. Is that not commitment and dedication?
Thank you, Steve, for defending those of us who do our jobs the best way we know how, and as efficently as we can. You've said it better than I, or anyone for that matter, ever could have.
God bless you.
I know its a shock when they do thank you.
Amen. It makes me forget my THREE MINUTE LUNCH today while working the M.
By the way, I'm not joking.
Steve can we get you to come out and give pepe talks to the guys working the road? It sure is nice hearing this coming from someone in management; now if only we could get RTO management to do the same.
Alex, I appreciate the compliment but I doubt that the TWU would appreciate that. Hang copies of the posts in the crew rooms if you wish, however. I don't know where you work but not all managers are indifferent. I would think that many managers share my thoughts.
I fought to get capital funding for new employee facitities to be built at Bedford Park Blvd. Station because my employees facilities are virtually inhuman. The funding was approved six years early because of the cooperation of the D Line Superintendent.
As rated in the Straphanger's Campaign, the D line is the #1 rated full-time line. It didn't get there because the 4 DCE and 4 RTO managers did the work. It's that way because we worked together to improve the equipment, the facilities and the working conditions of the employees - and we do listen. The rank and file DCE & RTO employees did the work.
The writer of this post is not responsible for spelling or gramatical errors contained within. He is only responsible for the content as it relates to the subject matter!
I just sent Dude a post and used that very word Lou. You're right on target.
Dude: Tell your buddy that the word is fanatic, not loyalty. And you might find out if he has any inside info if and when the Sea Beach might be going on the bridge, whether on weekends or weekdays. I'm looking for any rays of hope on that score. You can tell him any info coming my say stays on the QT. Not even my wife will know. Catch back up to you when I get back from Virginia on the 21st.
.
People... settle down. It's hot out. People get silly when it's hot out. The air quality effects one's ability to think straight. As such, I really wouldn't be surprised if someone eventually tries to assault a conductor for such actions - not to condone such an act, butlet's face it, when you've got air rage, car rage, office rage, i-can't-get-a-slurpee-fast-enough-rage, subway rage can't be far behind.
Actually, under these conditions - the heat and overcrowding on many lines, I'm quite surprised there haven't been more incidents of an ugly nature.
Anywho. that's my 2 cents.
Joe
Just another guy with a degree in psychology that he never gets to use...
RE: 2 hour headway:
Psst - ever ridden the A to rockaway late night? or during the day even? =)
Pssst. No! What is your point?
...that the line has some long headways at times... perhaps not 2 hours, but i've waited at least an hour for it. grant it i don't ride it much, but such an event can naturally leave a bad impression.
There is a difference in a scheduled headway and a delay due to an unplanned service interruption. In the event of an unplanned service disruption, 2 hour delays may occur. Go to the MTA website, however, and show me one schedule that has a 2 hour or even one hour headway at any time during any 24 hours. I'll wait.
I never claimed there was ever a 2 hour headway... i was just being a tad sarcastic (though that never translates well in text). i think i know just a tad better than that. I just look back at that recent trip or two on the A and can't help but to joke a bit about the slow service. I guess i'm spoiled by the usually timely N at night...
Still, even at it's slowest pace (usually due to track work, etc. - which has to be done - no complaints there)it's far better than a lot of commuter rail lines that don't even run at night. I might grumble a bit when it's extra slow, but hey, i still get home before dawn, so in the end i'm a happy camper.
Sarcasm never translates well - especially here. I have seen the results of delays on the Far Rock-Rock Park Shuttle. A true story will serve as a great example. My very first night as a Road Car Inspector and I'm sent to work Euclid Avenue on the Midnight tour. As soon as I get there, the dispatcher tells me to get onto the JFK express because there's a garbage train laying down at Howard beach with a Brake Pipe Rupture. It's night! It's my first call as an RCI. It's snowing! and it's R-9s with flatcars - things we never saw in school. Well I got out there and isolated the train just like the book said and off we went. The road was tied up for almost an hour so when we got to Rock Park Station, (where we were going to change ends into Far Rock so we could go north first car operation) it was after 2 AM and a modest crowd was waiting for a train. Several were so desperate, they were trying to board the R-9s, not realizing that there were few seats or lights in the workmotors.
Jeez, Train Dude, stop getting so worked up about these things. We know from your postings that you're not a spring chicken any more. Keep getting this emotional about stuff, you'll give yourself high blood pressure, or an ulcer, or Ebola.
Well, maybe not Ebola, but you get my point.
110/70 and my cholesterol is 172. That's as of last week anyway. As for getting upset, t'is my nature to abhor ignorance. I can't help it but thanks for the interest in my health.
Train Dude is just being Train Dude-----no BS and right up front with what he has to say. It's somewhat refreshing after having to put up with so much wishy washy crap day in and day out whether I'm online or dealing with some of the loco foco I come in contact with. Of course, if Dude could be adversely affected by his occasional tirades I would counsel the same thing. But if you ask my opinion, I think he thrives on it. And if you don't ask my opinion, I will give it anyway, free of charge. Have a great upcoming weekend Peter. I always enjoy reading your posts as well.
Ever wonder what frustrations conductors live with, day in and day out, that results in some doing that as "payback?" Not saying it's right, but having been a conductor myself, I *know* why sidearms AREN'T issued along with the monkey suit.
I was being sarcastic, but the conversation on the Nostalgia train DID happen. Also, I don't bother asking conductors for their badge numbers because I cannot see the numbers myself, and have no idea if they may be giving me the real numbers. Conductors certainly do face frustrations, and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I also didn't use any vulgarity in my post, which I'm afraid I cannot say for everyone. However, the sad fact is that the quality of our conductors certainly HAS dropped since the old days. This, however, may be the TA's fault. Anyone remember when the TA wanted to bar conductors from making long announcements about transfers?
On another note, there happens to be a conductor that I get every morning on the southbound 5 train. This train pulls into Pelham Parkway on weekdays at around 8:32-8:35AM. This guy is VERY good. Heavy set black man with a great, James Earl Jones type voice who announces every stop clearly, gives every transfer, and should be head of the TA union. I'm ashamed of myself for not yet asking his badge number as this guy is great.
In closing, I'm only mildly, no violently, insane, :), and certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. But, the practice of closing train doors when 2 more seconds could allow a transfer is, for whatever reason, happening. Frequently. And also, the fact that it's 1650 degrees right now gives us all the right to be a little pissed.
"I don't bother asking conductors for their badge numbers because I cannot see the numbers myself, and have no idea if they may be giving me the real numbers."
If you can not see their badge numbers, how do you know that they are actually conductors? And I believe that it was your whole-hearted intent to ridicule every transit employee simply because you cannot get a job with the TA. Nothing but very sour grapes.
Not to worry guy, my tongue was planted FIRMLY in cheek ... if any conductor did ANY of what I proposed deliberately, they'd be gone. But deep down, in the darkness of the shower stall with the drop down sash, every conductor who visits here is secretly saying, "YEAH!" ... it's sorta like armed buddies of mine who work at the county jail - "21 cents would solve all my problems." But you can't live your fantasies of course.
But not to worry about me being offended or emotional on the issue one way or another ... I'm just the village idiot here, trying to amuse las touristas. So many other folks here take themselves WAY too seriously, so I try to be the counterweight. :)
Thanks. But, I meant that for Train Dude, who seamed genuinly pissed off.
Might be the water, certainly the weather ... I always got more irritable on gnarly days in the city ... so I moved upstate. It's 100 right now here, but you don't care. :)
Having been a "public servant" myself (and no, I will *NOT* get you a drink of water) I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of stuff like this on a daily basis:
An Indian walks into a bar. He has a shot gun in one hand and a bucket of shit in the other. He says to the bartender, " Me want beer." The bartender says, "Sure chief, coming right up." He gets the Indian a tall draft beer and the Indian drinks it down in one gulp. The Indian picks up the bucket of shit, throws it into the air and blasts it with the shotgun. Then he walks out.
Four days later the Indian returns. He has a shot gun in one hand and a bucket of shit in the other. He walks up to the bar and says to the
bartender, "Me want beer."
The bartender says, "Whoa, Tonto, we're still cleaning up from the last time you were in here. What is this all about anyway?"
The Indian says,
"Me in training for job as State Employee. Drink beer, shoot shit,
disappear for four days."
ROTFLMAO
Selkirk: You're all right. Made me laugh like hell with that gem of yours. Thanks buddy. But you are right. The heat and humidity can really get to you. We've had more than the usual humidity here in Southern California the last four days and I've been a little pissed off about everything. It would certainly seem that in the more humid East it could be even worse for the rest of us---especially down in the subway.
I've noticed a sharp rise in the "cranky factor" throughout here the last week or so and if we were to get Mr. Science to come out of the broom closet, I'd bet he could either plot a temperature/humidity curve that would compare perfectly to a plot of the old moodometer here ... or he could just plotz ... never know. Watch the closing doors, this is a northbound mystery train, next stop ... nowhere. Watch the closing ripsaws ...
Let's check the moodometer on Sunday. :)
No, I'm not pissed of. I'm tired of being pissed on, euphemistically speaking. As I said before, I will call to task any subtalker who posts things that are irresponsible, wrong beyond any reasonable innocent error or cannot be substantiated. Your post fit all three.
His basic point is that conductors often close doors on one train just as another one pulls in across the platform. What's wrong, irresponsible, or unsubstantiated about that? It happens all the time.
His post specifically stated that he heard a conductor say he does it deliberately - no documentation like a badge # - only his word. He said that there was a 2 hour headway on the #2 train at times - there is no such thing. He suggested that conductors deliberately cause connections to be missed (under penalty of death). Now where I come from, making charges like that are irresponsible & unsubstantiated.
Now, no one will dispute the fact that connections are not always made. No one will dispute that it is an inconvenience. However, the rest is bullshit - unless you have proof that what tony said is true. Do you?
Yesterday, at about 9:30 at night at the uptown 96th St./Broadway station, a #3 train pulled in. The doors on the #1 train that was across the platform closed literally 2-3 seconds before the doors on the #3 opened.
I happened to luck out, as I was on the #1 from before. However, it was clearly not rush hour, and I felt badly for those who couldn't get on.
I have noticed this phenomenon many times. So has the New York Times, which ran an editorial on this exact topic some time ago. Grievances about off-hour door closings while another train is about to open up are legitimate.
In terms of how this thread was introduced, the informal nature of this setting allows for such illustrative talk, including yours.
Of course, the train that closes its doors could be an R142 with no AC (which I now know is worse than a car that was not built for AC - I appreciated your explanation). I was on another "hot 142" this week, the 4th or 5th time in which that has happened. In such an event, the conductor would be doing the passengers a favor. :)
Interesting situation ... here's how to split the hairs though - watch for the three yellow lights on the ceiling. If they're lit, the conductor is supposed to wait. If they're out, you're supposed to do your dwell time and then go, regardless of what's going on on another track ... can anybody catch this happen with the hold lights LIT for the train that closes up? If so, then you've just "nailed the conductor."
Okay, so sometimes the tower operator is at fault. Same difference. (Or maybe not. Isn't there a rule that the conductor is supposed to wait for connections even when the holding lights are off, except during rush hour?) Why should the passengers have to put up with this nonsense?
Ya got me there ... it's been 31 years since I last had to look both ways before pulling my key and passing indication, but that was the rule back then - you had a dwell time and a real watch to follow unless overruled by holding lights. I honestly don't know what the rules are today - someone else here doing the gig currently needs to answer that. But the one thing I CAN assure you is that if the tripleheader is lit, you'd best not close up ... that's the only thing I'm certain of.
When I was a conductor, if I didn't have to worry about being yelled at for being tardy at the terminal, then I could afford to be generous in such a condition. If you're late though, they always made life not worth being nice over. Bottom line though, you follow the rules. If another train pulls in and you're at dwell time, you close up. It's not your job to worry about connections or at least that was the case in my day. The tower did have the option of putting on the hold lights if they wanted to and you had to obey them to permit a connection.
Anyone currently a C/R have a bead on what the rules are today?
Well the TA would like Conductors to make connections if at all possable exept for Rush Hours, tight headways, or lateness. If you are 5 Minutes late the crew must have a valid reason why the train is late . Making a connection is not one of them. Heavy ridership and passenger interferance is only valid if reported to Control center by radio at the time and location it happened at.
Before you make a connection you have to ask yourself 3 things. 1. What time of the day is it 2.What is the headway 3. Am I on time. If all 3 checks out make the connection if not don't.
Thanks for a logical explanation of how a real mass transit system operates in the real world. Too bad those instructions are not included with HO train sets. Then some subtalkers might understand what's going on.
Thank ya! Nice to know some things never change. And it's unfortunate that folks don't know what the conductor is up against when they do shut down in people's faces. The one thing I noticed as a road warrior is that there's ALWAYS somebody who's going to have a door close in their face ... or the train would NEVER leave.
No one says there are not abuses. The best thing is to get car #s, note the time and location, get an interval number if you can and then call (718) 330-1234. No one on this board is in a position to do anything about complaints. Why not complain where it will do some good.
Yesterday, at about 9:30 at night at the uptown 96th St./Broadway station, a #3 train pulled in. The doors on the #1 train that was across the platform closed literally 2-3 seconds before the doors on the #3 opened.
I happened to luck out, as I was on the #1 from before. However, it was clearly not rush hour, and I felt badly for those who couldn't get on.
It seems like this practice is most common on the Seventh Avenue IRT. Why, I don't know.
Unless he was seriously planning on filing a formal complaint (and complaints here, I'm sure you will agree, are quite informal), I don't see why he'd bother getting a badge number.
His remark on the 2 headways was clearly hyperbole. (Sometimes the wait seems that long.)
He jokingly suggested that the only possible explanation for this rampant practice is a rule with a very severe penalty -- otherwise no C/R would possibly be so mean. (Or something along those lines.)
I had no trouble seeing the post in the lighthearted nature it was composed in. He even apologized when he saw that not everyone took it that way. Enough. Let's move on. Address the issues he raised, if you so choose.
Oh, meant to add on that serious sideline - you'd normally hold for your cross-platform neighbor off peak but during rush hours, the rule always was, holding lights out, GET OUTTA HERE NOW ... the train behind you is meant to meet that one.
Just for laughs and giggles, when your train barrels into the platform, watch the holding lights on the other track. If they go out when your train is rolling in, then the guy or gal in the monkey suit is only following the rules ... if they close up with the hold lights on, you've got a case ...
Also, I don't bother asking conductors for their badge numbers because I cannot see the numbers myself, and have no idea if they may be giving me the real numbers.
Actually, you probably would get the correct numbers. The conductors wouldn't know that you can't read the badge numbers yourself. I somehow doubt they'd risk getting caught giving out a false number (which in all likelihood is a serious offense).
I've seen some interesting missed connections.
One Sunday morning I was in the last car of a 3. As we arrived at (IIRC) 14th, a local was sitting across the platform, holding lights on. A bunch of people got up and stood by the doors, waiting to dash across the platform. Only problem is, the doors didn't open. After, oh, 15 or 20 seconds, the C/R scolded us and told us to use all available doors. Only after the local's holding lights went out did he notice his error. (He didn't bother apologizing to everyone who missed the connection due to his carelessness.) Then, thanks to those delays at 14th, we just missed the next 1 at Chambers. Good going, C/R, that's two missed connections for the price of one.
Just before the bridge flip, I was on a Q over the Manhattan Bridge, planning on transferring to an F to get to the 6. (This was just after running into Eric B at DeKalb and meeting Mr. Track Map a few hours earlier.) There was nothing in front of us for at least a few minutes, yet the holding lights were on at B-L (or was it W4?). After a few minutes, the lights went out (nothing had come through on the local track the entire time) and we went on our way. At 34th (and 42nd and 47th-50th) we just missed an F. Figuring that I'd do better on the E, I took the D that pulled in on the Q's heels (that's what happens when a train is held for no reason -- others pile up behind it), but to no avail: an E pulled out as we pulled in, and the next one was ten minutes off and jam packed. (And the escalator at Lex wasn't working.) Now, what could have been the possible point of holding our Q for no connection, conveniently just barely missing the connection to the F and causing the D behind us to just barely miss its connection to the E?
Well, I can't speak for other conductors, only myself. When it's rush hour, I do not make connections, except for when I'm held at gap stations like Euclid, Jay St., 59th St., etc (and even then, I get on the radio and question why I'm being held so I can inform my passengers).
I do make connections during non-rush hours; however, if I am running late, I do not. For example, if midday I am on the A going from Far Rockaway to 207th Street and because of track work being done on the flats, I get to Rockaway Boulevard seven minutes later than I was supposed to, I know that means that the A coming from Lefferts Boulevard is three minutes behind me. If I am trying to make up the lost time, why would I make a connection to an F at Jay St. when my follower is only three minutes behind me? All that does is create crowded conditions on the train and create crowds at the stations further up. So, no, I will not make a transfer under that circumstance. I'm trying to keep my train moving.
Now, if the TA decides that under all circumstances we should make connections, then fine. But I don't want to hear anything about latenesses when I get to the terminals, and I don't want people coming up to me asking, "What happened?" or "Is the train running?" Because if they do, I'm simply going to say, "I don't know."
A train is held in a station for various reasons, some being it is ahead of schedule, there is a delay behind it so the T/D holds the train so that they will be evenly spaced, waiting for police or an RCI, are all reasons to hold a train in a station.
Sometimes, I want to kill the dispatcher at Roosevelt. Imagine being on a N/B G train that is already at capacity, when an express enter the station, and the local is forced to cram even more people onto the train. In this case, the connection should BE AVOIDED!!!!
Point well taken. Imagine when the cut the G back. :-(
That's just a Tower Operator at Roosevelt. If the TW/O did indeed hold the G for a connection, then there was most likely a delay in service behind it.
"Sometimes, I want to kill the dispatcher"
Hmmmmmm, you sound like a totally rational person to me.
Let me give you a clue genius. When I said, "sometimes I want to kill the dispatcher", I did not mean that literally. And I think everyone else on this board has the common sense to realize that but you, or I would have received the same negative outpouring that Tony Mirabella did, when he wrote a far more serious post.
>connect to a 2 train, which has 120 minute headways.
U just gotta know..... "the secret"
Why was the 3rd Avenue line in the Bronx demolished?
You can look at here for reference.
Chaohwa
It was falling apart. The communities wanted it removed (it was hoped that a subway would eventually be built). The TA was in a money crunch and didn't want to do upgrades. The structure for the most part was becoming an eyesore and the promise of open space and sunshine was a big convincer. In the beginning the Bx55 worked quite well. Nowadays it is like any other crowded bus route.
I think that if people knew then what they know now, the El would have been rebuilt and would still be running today.
Because little mice came out at night and gnawed at the steel.
Ah... er... 'cause they were FOOLs, of course....
'Cause the cars on it were OLD Low-Vs from the 1910s...
Oh Yeah... it is to make sub fans cry in their beer, that's it!
: ) Elias
>>'Cause the cars on it were OLD Low-Vs from the 1910s...
The last cars to run were the R12/14's.
Yeah?... Well, the last one I rode on were Low Vs... they musta done that while I was in the Navy or something.
It is better remembered with the Low Vs on it.
Elias
Amen ... those 12's and 14's were INTERLOPERS. :)
Before the R12 most of the fleet was the 1938 Worlds Fair cars, with a few of the beloved Low V -Steinway types too. My feelings have always been RE: structure falling apart that these things come in planned order anyway. If it were planned for keeps it would have been maintained.
OTOH 3rd ave [even the Bronx portion] and Myrtle were the last lines left that I know of with car weight restrictions; likewise being short lines, etc etc.
And ya know? When they finally went to tear down the third avenue el, it fought the cranes every step of the way? Sure it was shedding ties, plates and spikes ... but the STEEL wouldn't go without a fight. Surprised the hell out of a lot of people when it was time to yank it down.
Are all of the posts from a certain poster gone? Not just a thread, but EVERY post from the last 24-hours.
BTW, anyone see page 22 of Wednesday's Daily News? ('Courage in Action')
-Hank
It must be you. I haven't singled out a poster, just threads.
Didn't you publicly announce, say, about 24 hours ago, that you were putting a certain poster into your killfile?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nope. I don't use the kill file anymore. I changed my outlook on these things instead. I simply speak my mind.
-Hank
>>>BTW, anyone see page 22 of Wednesday's Daily News? ('Courage in Action') <<<
Yes, Hank, I saw it. Meant to tell you yesterday. Great
photo
Peace,
Andee
I am nearly half way done with my outline and I have some of it here.
T 2 Avenue local
All times exept nights:All stos from 125 street to Whitehall street
Nights:No Service use the U and X.
U 2 Avenue Express
All times Exept nights:Express in Manhatthan Local in Brooklyn from 125 street to Starret City.Note:Some train ru express In Brooklyn from Washington Avenue to East New York
Nights:Local from Starret city to 125 street
X 2 avenue express
All times:Express In Manhatthan Local in Staten Island from 125 street to Arthur Kills road.Note:Nights local from Whitehall street to Grand Street.
Y 2 avenue express
Weekdays until 9 pm:Express In Staten Island and Manhatthan,Local in the Bronx from SI mall to Co op city.
Other Times:Express in manhatthan local in the Bronx from Grand street to Co op city.
T 2 avenue Local
All times exept nights:All stops from Arthur kills road to 125 street
Nights:Use X for StatenIsland service, for Manhatthan service
U 2 Avenue express
All times exept nights:Local in Brooklyn Express in Manhatthan and the Bronx from Starret city to Co op city.
Nights:All stops from Starret city to Co op city
X 2 Avenue express
All times exept nights:Local in the Bronx express in Manhatthan ad Booklyn from SI Mall to Gun Hill road
Nights:Local in Staten Island express in Manhatthan from Arthur Kills road to 125 street.Note:Nights run local from Whitehall street to Grand street
Can i take the B to Harlem river drive?? what stop do i get off?
B to 155 St/8 Av. The Harlem River Drive is within easy walking distance.
It's practically across the street.
Other stations near the HRD: 155th on the C (near the long Harlem River Driveway entrance ramp that was the south end of the original Speedway), Dyckman on the 1, 145th and 148th on the 3. None are as close as the B/D at 155th, though.
I always wonder, however, why one would take a subway to highway. Take the entrances to the IND off the Jackie Robinson. What were they thinking? Foldable, carry on automobiles?
The Station Entrances are acually on Union Turnpike (Service Road for Interboro Parkway).
I can't answer for anyone else, but as for myself, I'm a roadgeek as well as a railfan. Most of my best road pictures are as a pedestrian; everything goes by too quickly while driving and it's hard to get more than one or two vantage points. And what's the best way for a pedestrian to get around the city?
I always wonder, however, why one would take a subway to highway. Take the entrances to the IND off the Jackie Robinson. What were they thinking? Foldable, carry on automobiles?
Or the mosaic sign at the Canal Street IND station reading "Holland Tunnel."
Yes, I know, there once was a bus station by the tunnel entrance, but it looks pretty silly today.
we have discussed and rediscussed the reasons for and against 75 foot cars- the main reason being fewer doors per train.
Theerfore, would it be feasible to run 12 car trains of 60 foot cars (which would be eight sets of doors more per train). The train wouild still be 600 feet long and the C/R would still have 300 feet on either side.No lengthening of platforms would be needed. Would tunnels be able to handle these.
>>>...feasible to run 12 car trains of 60 foot cars (which would be eight sets of doors more per train). The train wouild still be 600 feet long ...<<<
Umm, 12 x 60 is 720.
Peace,
ANDEE
sorry- brain is fried due to the heat. I'm melting, melting, mel...
sorry!:-)
>>>sorry- brain is fried due to the heat. I'm melting, melting, mel... <<<
Don't worry, you are not alone.
Peace,
ANDEE
My brain is OK now- I meant **fifty** foot cars. 12 cars of 50 feet is 600.
That is what Imesant to type in for my first message.
Why not just build 75' cars with 5 sets of doors. Best of both worlds ...
"Why not just build 75' cars with 5 sets of doors. Best of both worlds ... ".... NOT
60' cars are better. There is not so much swing between the cars,
they can leave the storm doors open, then little boys like me can ride between the cars again, just like I wasn't *supposed* to do on the R1-9s either. Yippeeee....
Elias
Riding between cars is illegal and dangerous-- for children or grown-ups. If caught by police you will ticketed. I belive the fine is $100.00.
But passing between cars (except on the 75-footers), last I checked, is perfectly legal, and can be done safely if you know what you're doing (except on the R-142's, where three hands are required to make a safe car change).
I meant 12 cars of 50 feet each. Sorry! I do think 12 x 50 is 600.
OK Group --
I'm doing some semi-serious research into this, and I was wondering if anyone in the group could help, since it is vaguely on topic. As far as I can decipher, in addition to the privatized ex-JNR which operates the commuter mainlines around Tokyo (such as Tokaido line), there are also other "private" railways (non-ex-JNR) such as the Meitetsu line. Generally, interchange is by walking (since Japanese law specifically prohibited private railways from building direct interchanges with the nationalized JNR -- the private station usually had to be elevated above the JNR's mainline).
Can anyone recommend any further source of information -- either about the operations or the management policy on any of those lines? I've seen a lot of stuff about JNR and its privatization, but most literature focuses on Shinkensen (the Bullet Train) and for my purposes, I need to examine Tokyo Commuter Rail (NOT Subway) more closely.
Thanks for any referrals,
Lexcie
P.S. If you wish, you could e-mail me direct on the above e-mail address.
What kind of information are you looking for? Did you try doing a Google search? There are some sites with brief histories of the Japan railway system, including some of the private lines. There are also some investment analyses of the private railway companies, which incidentally provide short profiles for each of the companies that have investment ratings. Not sure if there are any books dedicated to the private railways, though surely they've paid to have some kind of literature written about themselves (with positive spin, and in Japanese).
What I did do was an altavista search. The search turned up quite positive information from a Japan Railway Society which is headquartered in London, England. Other than that, the resources are pretty scarce. I'm really interested in JR's management philosophy towards its commuter lines. I doubt there are books on it (my dad took a look in a Japanese book-mart for me but found nothing), but if anyone knows anything I'll be glad to learn about it.
Thanks.
Many private commuter railroads in the Tokyo and Osaka area have their own webpages with a picture gallery of trains. Most are in Japanese, but by using Alta Vista search engine with Babel Fish, Japanese can be translated into English. Examples are Keio Teito (Tokyo) and Hankyu (Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto interurban). Japan Railway Society is an English railfan sight with picture essays on several Tokyo commuter lines.
it hard to get info on Japan's commuter rails. i've tried and i haven't been successful. you will get the bullet train because it is also popular with the tourist because it is the first highspeed train to be built. but to get info. on Japanrail is an ordeal.
Riding the Blue Line westbound from Clinton (or eastbound from UIC-Halsted), one will see two additional subway portals in addition to the two that are in use. Also, the median of the Eisenhower Expressway seems like it was planned to be wide enough for four tracks. My guess is that there were provisions made for four-track local and express service similar to the Purple Line express tracks on the north side. Can anybody confirm this?
But here's the weird part: West of Cicero Avenue, the Congress line ducks under the inbound lanes of the expressway and emerges alongside the southern edge of the highway. The short tunnel that carries trains under the highway has only one extra portal, for a total of three. Where was the fourth track supposed to go?
Inquiring minds want to know...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't know about the three portal/four portal discrepancy, but the extra portals were intended not for express L service but for the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin (CA&E) interurban.
The CA&E had for decades used the Garfield Park (Metropolitan) L to reach its Loop terminal from the east end of its own tracks. (The CA&E was once under common ownership with the other two Chicago interurbans and Chicago Rapid Transit.) When the Garfield Park line was being replaced in the 1950s with the Congress line -- the Congress Exp'y plowed over much of the old L route -- it was thought that the CA&E would continue to go downtown over the "new" L line. Hence the portals and space for extra tracks. But instead CA&E trains terminated at the L's western terminal, where passengers had to transfer to L trains to reach downtown, making all the stops. This lasted only a few years until the CA&E went out of business altogether (1957, IIRC).
Since the CA&E died before the Congress work was done, the extra portals were never used and the downtown portals do not extend far.
John is absolutely correct. There was going to be a third track (not a fourth) in the median of the Congress Street Expressway, to be used by CA&E trains that were bypassing some of the "L" stations. When construction on the expressway began, a temporary semi-elevated structure was erected along the north edge of the expressway trench that allowed CTA trains to get to the western terminus of the line at Forest Park. Unfortunately, there were a lot of problems with this temporary operation. There was a lot of side-of-the-road operation, many grade crossings, and generally slow traffic. It would have been extremely difficult for the CA&E to try and operate trains through to the Loop, and the line swallowed hard and terminated their runs at the CTA station in Forest Park.
The few years it took to build the expressway were enough; ridership on the CA&E fell of by about 50% and the line abandoned passenger service in 1957. There were many people and groups that wanted the line to continue operating, however, and various lawsuits and plans were worked through for five years following the abandonment. While this was going on, a good deal of the construction work done especially for the CA&E - stuff like the extra tunnel portals - continued to be built. In 1962 it was finally realized that the line would not be resuming service, and the CTA stopped worrying about an extra tenant on its tracks.
There are still a number of signs of the original plan to include the CA&E. The most obvious are the extra tunnel portals and unusually wide median; there is also a bridge, built new in 1959, that crosses the Des Plaines River just yards west of the CTA's Forest Park Terminal. This would have been the CA&E's gateway to the CTA trackage, but the bridge never saw operation. Now it's landlocked by a cemetary, the CA&E long dead and gone.
Thanks for the helpful info. I wonder if all that wasted ROW space could be used for Mayor Daley's plans for dedicated express trains to O'Hare and Midway. The unused portals are only a couple blocks away from Union Station, which just happens to have a very large and very underused Great Hall that would serve as a perfect area for airline ticketing and baggage check-in. Hopefully City Hall has at least one person who can see the possibilities.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The idea of running CTA specials to the airports is a fairly interesting one. Of course, the CTA already goes to both airports - the line to O'Hare went into service in the 1960's, and the Midway line within the past 10 years. I think you're right about much of the problem being with luggage and check-in protocols. One must remember, though, that even if the CTA had a Loop facility for checking in people and baggage, they would still need something to carry the baggage to the airport. Freight motors, perhaps? 8-)
...the line to O'Hare went into service in the 1960's...
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall it being in service when I moved from Chicago in December 1978. Mid '80s is more like it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
O'Hare service begain in 1983, possibly as late as 1984. I know that the dedication plaques in the Harlem, Cumberland, and Rosemont (nee River Road) stations have 1983 dates.
However, the line WAS extended in the late 1960s from the old Logan Square terminal as far as Jefferson Park station, which opened in either 1969 or 1970 IIRC. That may be what the poster was thinking of when he said O'Hare service began in the 1960s.
Jefferson Park opened in 1970. The Blue line was extended to River Rd. (Rosemont) in 1983 and finally to O'Hare in 1984. The original contractor went bankrupt before they could finish up and a new contractor had to be hired.
I still have the Tribune article about the opening of the O'Hare station, thanks to my aunt.
"The unused portals are only a couple blocks away from Union Station, which just happens to have a very large and very underused Great Hall that would serve as a perfect area for airline ticketing and baggage check-in. Hopefully City Hall has at least one person who can see the possibilities."
But:
1) That doesn't account for the Orange Line to Midway, only the Blue Line to O'Hare. The Orange Line is on the other side of the Chicago River and on the Loop elevated.
2) The Great Hall shouldn't be so empty, but neither should it be cluttered up with ticket counters and ugly baggage conveyor belts in a neoclassical open space. There are pictures of what was done to the Great Hall after the demolition of the old concourse forced ticketing functions to move but before the excellent renovation of the early 1990s, and they strongly resemble a mazelike bazaar jammed into an old city hall or courthouse after the collapse of civilization. ;^)
IIRC, the Mayor's tentative plans for airport express service involve a remote airport terminal in the basement of a building between State and Dearborn Street in the Loop. With such a location, trains could be routed from Midway via the Orange Line down into the Red Line (State Street) subway, connect via new connecting tunnel to the existing Blue Line (Dearborn Street) subway, and thence out to O'Hare. This would involve removing part of the long platform in both subways and would entail switching airport express trains in the path of regular Blue and Red trains, but that's not a serious obstacle. There are stretches of the platforms not used as stations that can be removed without public inconvenience, and CTA is definitely used to busy L tracks crossing each other at grade. :^)
But I like the looooooooooooooooooooonnnnnng platform..
They portals weren't completely forgotton right away. They were going to be utilized in the central circulator system planned in the late seventies. The circulator's last stop would've been Halsted.
The third portal west of Cicero Ave. was also intended for a track to connect with the yards at the old Laramie station. The area is now a school bus parking lot which can be seen just north of the expressway. This yard was abandoned when the current one west of the Forest Park station was built.
-- Ed Sachs
Makes we wonder if the CA&E really swallowed hard, or was looking for an excuse to shut down. They could have seen patronage drop way off, and then have second thoughts about not running thru service.
The Kansas crowd would have been happy to shut the railroad down, but a management team formed after the 1957 end of passenger service made a sincere attempt to restore service to the Loop after Congress service replaced the Garfield Park "L". Unfortunately, there was no viable way of establishing a downtown terminal. The old Wells Street terminal was cut off by both the Congress (Eisenhower) and Kennedy Expressways, and no other method of CA&E trains reaching the Loop ever presented itself.
What I never understood, is that CA&E trains would have presumably, eventually gone to the Dearborn subway. But what then - where would they have relayed back ?
I think the original plan was to have a ramp up from the expressway median to the old El structure around Halsted St. to allow the CA&E trains to continue to use the Wells St. terminal. However, by the time construction on the median strip line was underway, CA&E service had been suspended east of Des Plaines Ave. (current Forest Park terminal of the Blue line) and there really weren't any plans made for how CA&E trains would ever return to the Loop.
As it turned out, CA&E passenger service didn't survive to see the opening of the new Congress (median strip) line in 1958.
-- Ed Sachs
We just finished soundproofing a contract of about 80 houses near O'Hare Airport, this time in lovely Wood Dale. Our job site was just off Irving Park Road, near the Metra Milwaukee District West Line. We could see the trains from where we were working, and every so often, usually during late morning, I would see an inbound train being pushed by two locomotives. Why two? The train didn't appear unusually long, so I suspect the added horsepower isn't a factor. Some years ago I remember seeing this question asked and answered in Metra's monthly newsletter, but I can't recall what the answer was.
-- David
Chicago, IL
We just finished soundproofing a contract of about 80 houses near O'Hare Airport, this time in lovely Wood Dale. Our job site was just off Irving Park Road, near the Metra Milwaukee District West Line. We could see the trains from where we were working, and every so often, usually during late morning, I would see an inbound train being pushed by two locomotives. Why two? The train didn't appear unusually long, so I suspect the added horsepower isn't a factor. Some years ago I remember seeing this question asked and answered in Metra's monthly newsletter, but I can't recall what the answer was.
Maybe the extra locomotive was needed at the Chicago station, and it was hitched onto an existing train rather than run light.
I've seen the train in this configuration more than once, and (IIRC) around the same time each morning. I assume it's a regularly-scheduled occurance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It means that there is a power inbalance. They probably run one extra train in one direction than in the other. This means they need to get that locomotive to where it needs to be. It could also be a move to rotate the power through the repair/inspection facility,
The explanation I remember seeing was that one or two trains on each line have an extra locomotive so that the spares are in the right place (far suburbs early morning, city afternoon) to be a replacement in case one fails.
-- Ed Sachs
Where were R32/32A running between the late 1970's to 1995?
Amin, When I was little in the '70's and '80's, I mainly remember the R-32-32a's on the Southern Division BMT lines (D, N, RR, predominantly. The "M" as a Brighton was mostly hot R-27-30's, and freezer car R-42's). By the '90's, they ran on the "E", occasionally the "F", and later the "Q" and now "A", "C" lines. I haven't seen an r-32 on the "D" since the mid 80's. My memory goes back to about 1973.....Tony
they've been on the astoria line as long as i can remember, say, since 1985. about 1986 or 87 they were split up, 3350-3499 and 3650-3799 ran together, and 3500-3649 and 3800-3949 ran together. (with a few exceptions, 3408-9 ran with the 3500's for example) i mostly saw the 3350's on the R, the 3500's ran on the N, Q, and occasionally B. most of the 3350's went through the GOH first, in 1989 the R was running mostly GOH 32's, and the N was running a mix. as far as i know, the N was the last line to run the originals. at some point, the cars from the R went to the C and E lines. probably about 1993? when the r46's came back from GOH and the r30's were retired.
There was always one roaming around the QJ/J line before their GOH. I often remember seeing one laying up between Queens Blvd and Sutphin Blvd.
I passed by 23rd Ely today at about 5:15PM. The station was pitch black. I thought we were passing some abandoned station, but Im like NOT IN THIS PART OF QUEENS. Anyone know what happened? The train didnt stop obviously I was on a 'E' train heading to Jamaica Center
probably just another power outage. there have been random ones all over this area (and the rest of the city/area, i'm sure), usually just effecting one or 2 buildings, etc.
No announcements in advance? Strange.
Any idea if the connecting Court Square was closed also?
In a possibly related development, at least one F train was rerouted this evening over the Broadway line, to Coney via DeKalb. Don't know if it went Brighton or 4th Ave. after that. Or for that matter whether it went 63rd St. or 60th St. from Queens.
This also happened at Wall St. A very big news. (Although not technically in the News) Anyone have an UPDATE on WALL St. that serves the Lexington Av. #4 and #5 lines? Is the power there BACK ON? Usually, these power outs last for only a short time. This scenario happened during this heat wave period. Unfortunately, the E line is NOT RUNNING AGAIN FOR ANOTHER 2 WEEKENDS, so my brother, my mom and I have to substitute for the A and the F train to Queens. Ah,well, I most likely will miss the powerout. Good luck New Yorkers.
Railfan Pete.
I hate when the E isn't running, Queens Blvd is just a mess and I'm staying away from it (and taking LIRR)
Wall Street was fine when I rode through it last night.
Good, and thanks for the update. Although I would like to experience a Black Out at a station, which I have never experienced before. (Because I don't frequently ride the subway, I am not a New Yorker) Which train were you riding on? Perhaps a Redbird?
Railfan Pete.
>>>Because I don't frequently ride the subway.<<<
I've noticed.
>>>Perhaps a Redbird? <<<
At 23rd-Ely I don't think so.
Peace,
andee
>>>Perhaps a Redbird? <<<
At 23rd-Ely I don't think so.
I WAS RESPONDING TO DAVID IDIOT. HE SAID THE POWER'S BACK ON AT WALL ST. #4 and #5 station. DON'T YOU READ POSTS CAREFULLY BEFORE RESPONDING?
OF COURSE I KNOW NO IRT TRAINS RUN THROUGH THE QUEENS BLVD. LINE. DO YOU THINK I AM AN OAF TO THINK THAT? BY THE WAY, I HAVEN'T NOTICED YOU POSTING ANYTHING INTELLIGENT ABOUT THE SUBWAY TO OTHER SUBTALKERS AS WELL.
Railfan Pete.
Yawn....at least I know what ConEd is.....
Peace,
ANDEE
HOW COME YOU'RE NOT RESPONDING TO MY QUESTION? WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING? THE REASON BEING IS THAT I DO NOT LIVE IN NY TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN NY AND THINKING WHAT CONED CONTROLS.
Railfan Pete.
Maybe if you don't know something, don't try to make believe you're an expert, as you try to do.
Yawn, at least I can read the italicized in response to part! Don't bitch at me for spelling italicized wrong if it is wrong!
Who's bitching at you? My arguement was with Railfan Pete, unless you have 2 names, a violation of this sites policys.
Peace,
ANDEE
Can't we all just get along??
Mr. Pirmann, you'd better separate these two!!
I HAVEN'T NOTICED YOU POSTING ANYTHING INTELLIGENT ABOUT THE SUBWAY TO OTHER SUBTALKERS AS WELL.
If that's true, then he's posted more intelligent things than you.
OK. American Pig. Reply to me the next 10 postings that you post and I'll see what your intelligence level is. When I come across a posting that is not suitable for me I just skip over it. I post what I know and mixed in with the dices of these SubTalkers including YOU AND SUBWAYSURF. And if I'm not a New Yorker and I don't know some of the simplest things to know, then it doesn't make sense to mouth off at someone.
What if I told you what is the daily revenue income and how many route lines there are of NJ TRANSIT rail operations? Describe the fare and ticket options for NJT? What is PSE&G in charge of in NJ. (just BASIC questions), would you know? I wouldn't think so unless if you lived in NJ. So watch it before you start going off...
: )
Railfan Pete.
What if I told you what is the daily revenue income and how many route lines there are of NJ TRANSIT rail operations?
I don't know what would happen if you told me, why don't you tell me then? Or are you trying to ASK me?
Total passenger receipts of the New Jersey Transit Corporation in FY 2000: $460,758,000
Number of lines:
Pascack Valley
Main
Bergen
M&E Montclair
M&E Gladstone
M&E Morristown
Boonton
Northeast Direct
North Jersey Coast
Raritan Valley
TOTAL: 10
Describe the fare and ticket options for NJT?
Fare on the New Jersey Transit commuter railroad system is distance based. Tickets are purchased in advance from a ticket booth or from vending machines. There are various ticket options (for non-elderly adults) are as follows:
ONE-WAY, OFF-PEAK:
Ticket allows use during off-peak period for appropriate distance. Ticket is returned if transfer is needed, ticket is collected on last leg of journey.
ONE-WAY, PEAK:
As above, but can be used during peak-direction trains during rush hours.
TEN-TRIP:
Discounted ticket allows 10 off-peak trips to be made, it is punched appropriately (as are the others) to indicate fares used.
WEEKLY:
Allows unlimited usage for area described, or shorter trip thereof during calendar week for which it is purchased.
MONTHLY:
As above, allows use for entire calendar month.
Tickets can always be purchased on board. A $3.00 surcharge is charged if the ticket window or TVM was available and open at the station of entry. Tickets can also be upgraded on board if necessary.
What is PSE&G in charge of in NJ.
Public Service Electric and Gas provides electrical power to a large area of New Jersey, it also provides natural gas to some areas.
I wouldn't think so unless if you lived in NJ. So watch it before you start going off...
Look out the window, there go your ASSumptions.
Dumbass.
OK. American Pig. I don't care if you start cursing your fat body onto me but you knew that because you did some extensive research from it just this afternoon. I'm sure you didn't know it beforehand. Just like I didn't know what ConEd was beforehand, because I'm not a New Yorker.
Railfan Pete.
The only thing I had to look up is the monetary figure.
It took me 2 minutes.
Everything else is from memory.
I can't imagine that you know all of these things in your head either.
I can't imagine that you know all of these things in your head either.
I know these things because I live in NJ and my home station is Metuchen. My first train ride I remember was in 1994-5 when a set of Comet 2A's pulled up inbound towards New York at Metuchen. At that time I was only an 8-year old lad.
Railfan Pete.
So you know how much money NJT made last year to the cent? I can see you knowing all of the others, but not everything.
You can't even recall them because YOU don't even LIVE in NJ. You live in NY just thinking he knows everything about NJT rail service. Also there were some missing info. for the ticket options you have mentioned and the refund policy, days of validation, seating aboard NJT, which tickets are valid on which trains, and things like that.
I want to know from you.
(Probably you will just pick up a full timetable and copy from there.)
....
Railfan Pete.
You can't even recall them because YOU don't even LIVE in NJ. You live in NY just thinking he knows everything about NJT rail service.
No, I can recall everything, I only had to look up the monetary figure.
That of course, is more than I can say for you, you know JACK SQUAT about the New York subway, and post lies and falsehood as if it's true, you don't even bother to look up the truth.
Also there were some missing info. for the ticket options you have mentioned and the refund policy, days of validation, seating aboard NJT, which tickets are valid on which trains, and things like that.
Idiot. You never asked me that. I gave you EVERYTHING that you asked for, I do not need to prove myself any further to a fool like you.
Pete, I don't normally step into the middle of an argument between two other posters, but... I'd cool it if I were you... while I disagree with Oinklet on his approach to a lot of the issues we discuss here, his knowledge of the facts - and especially the details - is quite good.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I disagree with myself on my approach too, I just don't really do anything about it.
Total passenger receipts of the New Jersey Transit Corporation in FY 2000: $460,758,000
Number of lines:
Pascack Valley
Main
Bergen
M&E Montclair
M&E Gladstone
M&E Morristown
Boonton
Northeast Direct
North Jersey Coast
Raritan Valley
TOTAL: 10
What about the Atlantic City line? And Northeast Direct is the Amtrak term; the NJT term is Northeast Corridor.
I forgot Atlantic City, good thing that you caught it. So it's 11.
The question was for how many lines there were, not what there names are. It doesn't matter what I call them, I only listed them for my convenience in counting.
I remember once when I was going to take an R to 86th street Bay Ridge when we skipped the station due to a power outage and got off at 95th.
(ducking the whole rest of this thread...)
Although I would like to experience a Black Out at a station, which I have never experienced before.
Neither have I. (They don't happen all that often.)
Which train were you riding on? Perhaps a Redbird?
Uptown non-Redbird. Don't remember if it was a 4 or 5 (I had only just gotten on at Bowling Green).
I work in long island city, they make us shut down the lights and PC's and not use the elevators twice this heat wave.
They did the same last year during that heat wave as well.
Thanks to those of you that have helped me in trying to find a copy of the various volumes of the above book. So far, I have had no luck. Please, if anyone knows a source, please email me at jrofrano@atl.invesco.com. The authors were Kahn and May and the publisher was the Electric Railroaders' Association.
Many thanks
John Rofrano
I'm emailing you... I've located a copy of volume 2 (the original, not the ERA reprint) at $74.00.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was another triple digit day with temps hitting near 100 in most areas, and above that in NYC. Fortunately we're down to 90 here on LI, there's a gusty S wind helping.
I heard that Metro-North has been having major problems with those overhead wires on the New Haven Line. Many have gotten too much slack, and dispite speed restrictions a train got stuck for a while when it snared the wires, stranding people in a hot train but also interrupting service. They really should run with 3rd rail which fares better in climates with wide temp ranges, screw the CT NIMBY's.
Also there were just scattered power outagesm but I heard the Newark and Hoboken areas have had problems for the past few days, and that there was a power outage in Flushing today. I wonder if that was in the downtown area or not. Well if it was downtown it must've been terrible, even with power it's not such a fun place.
Also there's a 5% voltage reduction to prevent system overload, so if your lights seem dim that's why. When I got home my clocks were flashing so there must've been a brief power interruption this afternoon. Also heard that there were problems on the LIRR in Jamaica causing 20 minute delays, and all DM trains will not run in electric mode to save power. So how was your train rides today?
They really should run with 3rd rail which fares better in climates with wide temp ranges, screw the CT NIMBY's.
What NIMBYs? It's STATE LAW, and always has been STATE LAW.
And a good state law it is. Catenary is better in almost every way. That CT catenary is old and crappy (not constant tension).
Constant tention my ass. They just don't know how to maintain it. The best way to have constant tention it to have such solid supports that it can't move.
God mike, you really need to take a few elementray courses in engineering (starting with statics), then you'd understand why what you're saying is *impossible*, and why constant tension was developed...
It was devoloped in Europe, how good could it be? Their rail network is in Chaos. They are not ones to be taking lessons from. The biggest arguement is that it looks like crap.
If the biggest argument against constant T-E-N-S-I-O-N catenary is that it doesn't look good then it simply cannot be as bad as you claim it is.
Also, most of the rail networks in Europe are supposed to be in decent shape with the possible exception being the one in Britain. Since when did Britain account for the rest of Europe in terms of railway networks and how does constant tension catenary explain the 'chaos' being experienced on those parts of the British railway system where a) there is no electrification and diesel powered equipment is used; or b) third rail electrification as used in the south; or c) where services over electrified lines, regardless as to the method of electrification, are operated using diesel powered equipment? I'm also curious as to how constant tension catenary is a factor that directly influences - and diminishes - the quality of the track and locations of signals, both of which have played significant roles in several accidents on British railways over the past year or so.
-Robert King
The arguement is that Metro North is so crowded that Amtrak trains will always be delayed. If I have to be delayed I would at least want to look at pretty catenary.
Moron. The trains are there first to move people. Entertaining railfans is NEVER in the process.
-Hank
I posted some real arguements, they are about two threads down. Also, pretty catenary is something that can be enjoyed by everyone. I'll need to so some more research re: the hypnotic effect of both types of catenary, but I suspect that older variety is better at putting one to sleep. When you're alseep the trip takes no time at all.
The trip still takes time. What if you have to get someplace quickly? No matter how long the trip felt, you can be late to your destination.
I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm going to pretend to be one.
Amtrak's version of constant tension arsed up slightly between New Haven and Boston, basically because the British-based designer Beafour Beatty didn't account for the greater temperature variation in America between day and night, summer and winter. Other than re-setting the weights twice a year, there really isn't too many problems with it. It is vastly superior to the ex-New Haven triangular crap (which is admittedly very pretty) but experiences resonance to such an extent that nothing can run past 90mph.
Metro-North doesn't even want Amtrak to be able to run any faster, because then Amtrak would get upset with them for the delays caused by the commuter train.
All I can say is that this is the point when Federal government should step in and legislate the sale of the New Haven-NYC section to Amtrak. Commuter Rail is important, but not as important as Amtrak's fastest and best mainline in the entire continent. Amtrak will then spend money ripping all the catenary out and replacing them with decent ones. In addition to that, new signals are needed to operate at full 150mph. I doubt Amtrak would be able to pay for the upgrade, so Congress would have to pay for it.
But look, this is all just a dream, okay?
That said, the logic in ConnDOT's not selling the Metro North line is as good as the logic for not building I-95 through Princeton Township. Unfortunately, that part of the US is still English enough for those posh people to have their way, at the expense of Intercity travellers.
Lexcie
Metro-North IS replacing the old catenary to New Haven with constant tension catenary. It just took a while for ConnDOT to come up with the money. It's supposed to take something like 7 years though.
It's a 10 year project. They really need to replace those century-year old catenary wiring in that area.
Railfan Pete.
There are some real arguements. Most VT cat uses three wires. In case of a burn through you only need to replace the contact wire. W/ CT you have to replace the whole segment. VT is easier/cheaper to string and you can use wire cross supports instead of gantry supports. This really comes in handy in a yard or terminal location w/ lot's of complex trackwork. VT is better for low clearances because the insulator can be placed between the wire and the grounded structure. VT has no moving parts and one small break won't de-string a whole section.
Most VT cat uses three wires. In case of a burn through you only need to replace the contact wire. W/ CT you have to replace the whole segment.
That is true, CT was always little more maintenance heavy than VT.
VT is easier/cheaper to string and you can use wire cross supports instead of gantry supports. This really comes in handy in a yard or terminal location w/ lot's of complex trackwork.
The question therefore arises why you couldn't have VT just for yards. The contemporary British practice is to use a huge suspended span for yards. In yards, speed is not critical, so cost will be what drives VT versus CT.
VT is better for low clearances because the insulator can be placed between the wire and the grounded structure.
I've seen CT catenary held away from grounded structures using a insulator placed between the structure and the top wire. I guess this means that both VT and CT can be strung this way, although it is probably more involved with a CT segment.
VT has no moving parts and one small break won't de-string a whole section.
OK, I have one further question. Why hadn't Amtrak decided to take down the wires provided by PRR for crossovers which no longer exist on the NEC? For example, at CP-NASSAU(?), the wires are still up but the crossovers are gone. Could this be because the VT wire latticework there is so fragile that Amtrak has instituted a policy of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?"
It has nothing to do w/ fragility. It costs money to take it down. It costs MORE money to put it back up if they want to re-install the crossover. There is even catenary strung over grass in many places.
Oh, I wouldn't be too certain. See, with PRR and NH style VT systems, anytime you disturb one track, it wrecks the alignment off all the others. That's why a snag on the New Haven line screws up all 4 tracks, and why they didn't drop the wires on the northern section when it was 3 tracked years ago. You can't simply reach up and clip it, because that causes everything else to go out of wack. It's a lot easier to just leave the wires up even if they'll never be used again, than to take them down, because of this. When they did the changeover at New Haven, they had to leave up the old supporting beams and wires because there's a few tracks that still have old style catenary. So you get the eyesore of all these wires with a few snips here and there.
Let's face it, any interlocking Amtrak removes is going to be dead forever anyway.
A simple break shoudln't effect adjacent tracks. Many PRR hangers and the NH diamond ones have no connection between the catenary over different tracks. Are you talking about the NH cable suspended catenary beams? If one of those snaps all 4 tracks go down.
You might be living near a part of the NEC which is east of Penn Station. I know of a place where they removed a track shift and reinstalled it with cement crossties further down the same track.
The workers removed the rail then pretty soon removed the catenary wire strung on top of it, and weeks later, installed a new catenary wire that is in the existence of the new track shift today.
This is around Rahway train station in NJ and this scenario was simpler to accomplish because it was only involving one track and one catenary wire. (Not between two tracks, or two catenary wires)
Railfan Pete.
Your arguments ring hollow. With a line such as the NEC, you measure infrastructure requirements as follows:
Supports High-Speed running
Maintainability
Cost
You don't need to do any more work to repair a break in a CT system. You still have to replace the broken section. This is done with a splice. Generally, they will cut approximately 100' to either side of the break, splice on a new wire, and re-tension the system. When VT comes down, it usually brings down the support wires as well, resulting in MORE damage; it also results in additional delays because power needs to be shut to all tracks. CT can also be strung below obstructions on a single insulator. VT systems make sense only for low-speed functions, such as yards.
-Hank
How about 1st Grade science? Heat expands, cold contracts. Basic law of physics.
"Ya canna break the laws of physics, Cap'n"-Mr. Scott, repeatedly
-Hank
You can do anything if you put enough money quality into it.
OK, YOU throw money at the problem. There is no such material on the face of the earth, with the notable exception of water, which oddly expands as it freezes until it hits about 4ºF, that doesn't follow true to my statement.
-Hank
Research and effort brought concrete crossties whose coefficient of expansion is small enough that thay can be used in the northeast US. The early ones were limited to the South where winter temperatures are not so low.
Concrete catenary towers? Can we be realistic?
-Hank
Water contracts as it the temperature drops until it reaches 4ºC, then it begins to expand. It isn't frozen for 4 more degrees.
Sorry, this should have been a response to 249395, not 249463.
Been a while since I was forced to remember it. Thanks.
-Hank
I think the point churchbob is trying to make here is that it is technically possible that, if they developed a material that has a small enough coefficient of thermal expansion, they could use it for the wires instead of the current steel/aluminum blend which does actually have a bit of a sagging problem. Then they would be able to use VT and yet run at high speeds. The concept of CT was developed to allow high speed running in any weather, and it does have its disadvantages (for example in high winds the pantograph is often snatched off by CT wires that swings laterally too much). But then even with a VT catenary you would face the same problem in high winds. The only real advantage for VT catenary over CT would be a cost factor, in terms of maintenance. CT has vastly lower capital costs.
As for Mike, I think he just likes the way the New Haven diamond catenary looks. I have to admit I really like it too, especially the first time I saw it on my way to Boston -- I was in an NEDirect. I also remember thinking: I could not believe this modern locomotive is running off that rusted antique. It was almost as bad as the IC mainline in Chicago where you could see rust in the ballast underneath the catenaries...
Don't make fun of Mike now. It's not nice. He's capable of rational arguments just like yourselves. Personally, I get bored with rational arguments sometimes, so I post annoying dribble on here that makes me sound like an electrical engineer.
Lexcie
Its most just about looks. That diamond stretch is completely unique and like Penn Station, once it's gone, it's gone. Like an endangered species that diamond catenary needs to be preserved.
But not in daily use by high-speed trains where it becomes a maintainance headache and a possible trouble spot. String some up at a museum.
-Hank
That's like saying we should just put the animals in Zoos. It's not the same thing unless it is in service. People are too short sighted. They can't see the history all around them.
Like I said before -- why not let them be in service for ConnDoT, and just upgrade the Amtrak portion? Only Amtrak needs to run at more than 90mph anyway.
It's a slippery slope.
OK -- better idea. Let's build a brand-new alignment from New York to New Haven, perhaps over reclaimed land, bypassing the original NYNH&H alignment, and engineer this new alignment for 200mph running and constant tension wire. Leave the original New Haven trackage to ConnDoT to operate. Let Congress pay for this brand new alignment and upon completion of this alignment, they transfer the ownership to Amtrak.
and engineer this new alignment for 200mph running and constant tension wire.
Unfortunately, there are some speed limits for catenary tension wires also. (If I'm not mistaken) The faster a train goes using a wire, the more the wires "jiggle and scramble" as the AMTRAK train passes by it at such a high speed and such a high energy consumption (i.e. Acela Exp. trains)
I know about an international rail co. that ordered car pairs from Bombardier, Ltd., and their trainsets can top an 184 mph maximum speed. Of course, I don't know if they use catenary wiring, but I think there are limits.
Leave the original New Haven trackage to ConnDoT to operate.
Whoa. Now I don't know a whole lot about ConnDoT, but are you sure they can operate and maintain their schedules and trains with those towering AMTRAK trains that you suggest of? Some logical thoughts... Creative ones work too...
Until next time...
Railfan Pete.
OK -- better idea. Let's build a brand-new alignment from New York to New Haven, perhaps over reclaimed land, bypassing the original NYNH&H alignment, and engineer this new alignment for 200mph running and constant tension wire.
The upscale homeowners in Fairfield and Westchester counties would have a thing or two to say about that plan ...
That's completely ABSURD. Animals improve by generation, and the older ones die out, so there's no such thing as a 'museum piece'. I suppose we should all be driving Model T Fords, despite the dramatic improvements in automotive technology that now allow us to travel faster, safer, and more comfortably.
-Hank
Actually, everyone should be driving Ford Model T's. That way, Amtrak might actually stand a chance of making $$.
Nonsense ... the laws of physics are revised more often than a political budget ... since all of our mathematics are derived from forcing numbers to fit a given situation (again with Copernicus rigidity) physics gets revised often. Moore's effect was supposedly a constant as was the brick wall of E=MC2 ... largely, the derived math works (since it was derived to do so) ... but you just TRY to contain a matter/antimatter reaction Mr. Scot ... just goofing ... seriously though, the wonder of scientific calculation is that K's get revised.
By the way, Mikey, the word is tension not tention. That is unless you got that spelling from an english professor/catenary expert with 20 years of experience.
,|,,
Heh.
Clever Mikey! To bad you can't use a dictionary as well.
Since my posts are all worthless anyway there's no point wasting my time to find nitpicky spelling mistakes. BTW if you're going to insult me can you al least use my real name.
This is not fair. We should not pick on one person or attack anybody personally. If you're going to pick on someone, you should pick on someone bigger than yourself. You know, like Princeton Township, or even the State of New Jersey. "heh heh. You must be joking, Mr Fenyman!!!"
Lexcie
P.S. My apologies for being so harsh towards NJ. Really, I have nothing against Princeton. I really miss the days when you could just get on one of those M-1's and joyride it around on the branch.
Correction:
"heh heh. You must be joking, Mr Feynman!!!"
Lexcie
Mike, no one is totally useless. they can always be used as a horrible example. Same goes for your posts. People are critical because you are a pompous arrogant ass. You post your opinions as fact, you misrepresent sources and generally have zero credibility. For example your statement about catanary in Ct. You said it was the superior system because when it fails people have something pretty to look at. So how about painting murals on subway tunnel walls for the same reason? Accept the fact that you are not the sharpest tool in the shed, shut up, listen and learn. Someday you'll be able to cut wood.
People are critical because you are a pompous arrogant ass.
You're saying this TO ME!!!???
For example your statement about catanary in Ct. You said it was the superior system because when it fails people have something pretty to look at.
It said it better because when you're stuck behind an MNRR local you have something pretty to look at. I also gave about 5 or 6 real reasons in another post which you obviously chose to ignore, but, as always, you always like to misrepresent what I say.
You post your opinions as fact, you misrepresent sources and generally have zero credibility.
At least I try to give right answers. You're also forgetting those numerous times when I do give the correct answer. I post whatever tiny shred of information have because it more helpful to the poster than nothing at all.
Accept the fact that you are not the sharpest tool in the shed,
I'm way smarter than you and I always will be. Subtalk is a recreational activity where I go to have fun, try to help people and try to defend my lost causes. It's not a job, it's not graded, it's not a trade magizine, it's not a technical forum, it dosen't count for a hill of beans in anybody's book. I'm serious when I go to work, I'm serious when I go to my classes. When I get home, that's my time.
shut up, listen and learn.
All I hear is you insulting people. I don't expect to be always right, but when I'm wrong you could just not hold it against me and exlain why. That's the way to help everybody. You never answer my questions. It's just insults or shit that dosen't pertain to the question. I know, maybe if I listen harder I'll become an obnoxious git like you.
Clever Mikey! To bad you can't use a dictionary as well.
TOO bad
TO bed
TWO beds
Repeat after me now,
T-O-O bad
T-O bed
and
T-W-O beds.
Mr. Lexcie
(1st Grade Language Arts)
Yup Lexcie, you caught me making a type-o. Now are you not the clever one? Let's see, Lexcie, I posted that at 8:37 AM and you found it at 14:03. That's about 51/2 hours to find one error. Hmmmmm, I can see why your contract was not renewed. As for me, I'm still employed, well paid and very very happy - type-os and all.
You know, I'm very happy teaching my first graders (and second graders for that matter). They are a delightful bunch. And I'm always willing to volunteer to teach continuing education classes every now and then. You're one of the best students I ever had. Pity I don't get to write that big A on your grade card and give you presidential bucks when you score 10/10 on the weekly quiz.
Lexcie
>give you presidential bucks when you score 10/10
How about an Internship Application for Dude?
Just killfile him. After a while when nobody is responding to his post he will change.
Dave: Killfile who? Dude? If he ever changes he will lose one of his best friends and supporters on this site. Except for one person, there is no one on this site who pisses me off, but I am getting a little tired of some of the mealy mouth stuff that I've been reading lately. No one wants to offend so they blather on about nothing to raise a hackle while they straddle the fence. Dude doesn't do that. If I want an honest opinion, he'll give it to me. If you are going to killfile someone, and I hope you don't, pick on one of those straddlers who seem to write and say nothing.
C'mon... killfile train dude? Please... I doubt i see eye to eye with him on a load of items, but i'd never killfile ehm'. life would be pretty dull if you never encountered folks with different opinions, attitudes, etc.
Killfile him, and you lose the information he provides. Your loss.
-Hank
David B. You are the WEAKEST LINK goodbye...
Well Lexcie, as they say, "Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym." I taught over 25 years ago, Lexcie. By the way, and this is not meant to be sarcastic or disparaging. Lexcie is an unusual name (here). Is it male or female?
The writer of this post is not responsible for spelling or gramatical errors contained within. He is only responsible for the content as it relates to the subject matter!
Here is a photo of Lexcie with 2 other SubTalkers and the owner of the Cape May Seashore Lines Railroad.
Who is who? Or is it whom is whom?
The writer of this post is not responsible for spelling or gramatical errors contained within. He is only responsible for the content as it relates to the subject matter!
Yeah, nobody every guessed who everyone were when ChurchBob posted that photo on here for the first time. Or did I miss that? Did anyone ever guess who the non-subtalker on there were, and who the other two subtalkers were?
The writer of this post is not responsible for spelling or gramatical errors contained within. He is only responsible for the content as it relates to the subject matter!
My 2 questions are still unanswered. That photo makes at least one look somewhat androgynous!
The writer of this post is not responsible for spelling or gramatical errors contained within. He is only responsible for the content as it relates to the subject matter!
Not to worry, it's just Pat. :)
Lexcie is the person on the right, Jersey Mike is to the left of him. I have no idea who the two guys on the left are.
Thanks! Bob had already named them and you just answered my last question. I appreciate everyone's help.
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OH NOOOO!!!!!! PIGS YOU RUINED IT!!!! BESIDES, TRAIN DUDE IS GOING TO COME AFTER ME WITH A SHOTGUN NOW!!!!
No, it was just after seeing the picture I wasn't sure if you were M or F. Besides, why use gunpowder when roach powder will do?
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I'd like to offer an apology for my previous response to the post by Lexcie. I don't do that often but I think this is the exception that proves the rule. After due consideration, my response to lexcie was far to flip and didn't address the issue properly.
I don't remember exactly how long I've been playing here on Subtalk - more than a couple of years, anyway. I've never been shy about calling people to task for things they've posted nor have I ever been shy about mixing it up verbally (on or off-topic) with all-comers. I have rarely taken anything here personally.
That has now changed. After thinking about lexcie's post - I am taking great offense to it. In all the years here, I can't remember one instance where any poster has ever suggested the premeditated use of violence against any other subtalker - even in jest. There have been some outrageous posts here and they've been met with everything from anger to humor but never violence. There have been some really outrageous incidents with a few subtalkers having been given their walking papers. However, NO ONE ON SUBTALK, INCLUDING MYSELF, HAS EVER ADVOCATED VIOLENCE OF ANY KIND FOR ANY REASON.
Lexcie, for you to suggest that for any reason - even in jest, that I would commit any sort of violence over your inane ramblings here is absurd. For you to even joke that any subtalker would go after another subtalker with a shotgun over a minor disagreement shows what a pusillanimous weasel you really are. There is nothing more I care to say to you, now or in the future.
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?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
*now i'm confused*
Lighten up, Steve... even I realize that was said entirely in jest. I understand where you're coming from, but c'mon...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was both barrels of the verbal shotgun.
Uhm, I recall seeing SEVERAL threats aimed at a certain window-lover. Then there was 'subway_crash'...but I think that's a whole other angle.
-Hank
Subway crash was banished for his rantings that the TA & FBI conspired to cause derailments and collisions. I don't recall him ever advocating violence personally. (I still hear from Mr. Crash occasionally)
As for our west-coast rail-fan window wizard, even when his non-subtalk activities were discussed, there was much anger but no one, to the best of my memory, ever advocated or suggested violence.
The only one I remember that openly advocated violence was the guy who said that he enjoyed "beating up the old Jews on the Williamsburg Bridge". He was dealt with promptly and appropriately.
Now, I'd like this thread to simply die. I had my say and I do not think I over-reacted as one subtalker suggested (astually two if you count my e-mail). There's no sense in beating it to death as opinions will not change.
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You know, I look really male in that pic, don't you think, ChurchBob? I could really have done without those mountaineering boots.
You know, I look really male in that pic, don't you think, ChurchBob?
Letchie,
You are irresponsible with spelling.
I am chuchubob (as in choo choo, but that name was already taken), not church bob.
Oops, I've up set CHU CHU bob now. Sorry! Mike has told me a few times that I spell it wrong, and I was wondering how long it was before you would pick it up. heheh.
So, are you a churchgoer?
So, are you a churchgoer?
A fellow subtalker introduced me as "ChurchBob" to a late-arriving participant in a SubTalk trip last year.
I am one of those on this forum who prefer that topics regarding religion be discussed elsewhere, so I respectfully ignore your question.
Bob
Here is a photo of Lexcie with 2 other SubTalkers and the owner of the Cape May Seashore Lines Railroad
As Lexcie is a teacher, he must be one of the two people on the left, as the two on the right are too young.
He's not a teacher, it's a grad student at MIT. Although grad students frequently teach.
From left to right: Bob Vogel (chuchubob); owner of CMSL; Jersey Mike; Lexcie.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you. That answers many questions.
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Fink!
Tony Macrie is the CMSL pres.
Don't let his name fool you; he's very proud of being Italian.
Anon_e_Mouse, How did you know this???
Let's just say that when you get to be as old as I am, omniscience comes with the territory :-)
Seriously, Bob published the photo once before and identified who was in it... and I happened to remember.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
how heat slows rail service???? Please explain to me
Three main reasons:
(1) In electrified territory, the conductor sags due to excessive heat, leading to slow orders to prevent pantographs from being snagged.
(2) In CWR territory, the track buckles because the stresses within the rail build up to such an extent that they overcome the restraining forces of the Pandrol clips or tie-tacks and become out of alignment. Slow orders are put in for derailment containment or prevent dynamic forces from inducing buckles which would otherwise not occur.
(3) In all rail territories, the high rail temperature could lead to rail cracks being propagated more quickly (according to some people on this board, called shelling -- when the entire railhead is separated from the web of the rail). Again slow orders are issued.
If you dont want people to insult you maybe you should change your selfish abusive atitude.
BTW your in my killfile starting now.
Please Dave, not the killfile - anything but the killfile!!!
Do I hear Brer Rabbit?
-Hank
I just hate killfiles. I just hate being killfiled! I can't stand being relegated to non-person status.
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David B. you are THE WEAKEST LINK goodbye...
Now are you not the clever one? Let's see, Lexcie, I posted that at 8:37 AM and you found it at 14:03. That's about 51/2 hours to find one error.
So YOU are the one who spends 24/7 checking messages on this board.
You ask who taught Train Dude how to speak English?
I don't know why, but I bet he is a product of the NYC Public School system. Free lunches and all.
Hey Lurch, where did you learn your grammar? Remember this one?Let me
"give you a clue genius."
Where is the comma between clue and genius?
Let me give you a little clue lurch. I am a product of the NYC School System. I'm also a product of the CUNY system. Do you want to have a look at my transcript from John Jay? What are your education credentials, Lurch? What are your work credentials? From where I sit, you're just a wannabe who will never make it to the big leagues. I hope you do, lurch. Maybe you'll even get to work for me.
I don't know if this is somehow related to Transit or NYC, but since now we're comparing education credentials...
Let me give you a little clue lurch. I am a product of the NYC School System. I'm also a product of the CUNY system. Do you want to have a look at my transcript from John Jay? What are your education credentials, Lurch? What are your work credentials?
I don't know about this Lurch guy, I don't know about this Dude either, but... why does education credentials matter? No one has asked me what my education credentials are, and my English really isn't the best either. Let me put it this way though -- those who know me would know that my education has got me virtually nowhere in life. In fact, in some cases my education had been a hindrance, if only because I am one of the ones who made it, and those people I left behind hate my guts for it.
I'm glad I got my education. Sort of. It was a fun ride and I know I wasted a lot of $ doing it. But education isn't for everyone, and in my books, educational credentials is not a valid way of judging someone.
Incidentally, I do agree that City University of New York is a very respectable organization.
The education credentials were made an issue by LurchAAA when he bet that I was a product of the NYC School System. As a matter of fact, I'm a graduate of Brooklyn Tech, class of 67 and not ashamed of my education.
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John Jay. I should have known.
Wannabe? Nah. Don't flatter yourself.
Work for you? I thought you said that you don't work for the TA.
"I thought you said that you don't work for the TA."
That's right! - My mistake!
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Did you lose your thumb in the war?
I'm actually suprised that with the prolonged heat and the welded rail, there have been no instances of buckled rail.
If this temp. stays this high, there may just be an instance of buckled rail. Even worse, on some not - so - often - used sections of track, the rail could "shell."
Shell? Please define/describe.
Shell is when a CWR track buckles upwards, making a _/\_ shape. It's not usually as angular as that. I was going to bang on about Pandrol clips (it's vastly superior to tiepins they use, and American railroads are only slowly discovering it), but then I thought I would let someone else take up the discussion...
Actually, shelling is when pieces of metal peel from the ball of the rail. When shelling occurs, it's time for the track crews to go to work, and shelling can occur on jointed or CWR rail.
I've never heard the term, "Shell". Can you explain it, please.
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Steve, I haven't heard the term in quite a while myself - it's rather archaic - it's a reference to a hidden spiderweb of cracks in the rail (that would normally be picked up by a Sperry car or similar) causing the surface of the rail to flake off when a rail car would pass over it. On rarely-used rail this condition has a much greater opportunity to develop undetected. In an extreme heat condition, the spiderweb of cracks can expand significantly, to the point where the rail can literally "shell" - the outer portion of the railhead will detach completely from the inner, thanks to this layer of cracks, remaining separated even as the rail cools and contracts. Add the weight of a train, the railhead disintegrates, and you have a potential derailment. There may be another term for it nowadays that you professionals use, but I'm only familiar with the old one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the explanation. Oddly enough, we used to refer to the same condition on railcar wheels as 'shelling'. It just didn't ring a bell at first. Today we call it spalling.
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Glad you asked. Luckily, even with the three-digit temperature, NJT rail service still ran on or close to schedule. I was trying to catch the train with my dad en route to High Bridge with my dad at Metuchen, and luckily, we received an ALP-44 locomotive (sorry, no car #) with SIX Comet IV rail cars. The car that I boarded with my dad was #5553 (with GOOD A/C Thank the Lord!)
On our ride to Newark, I spotted that track #4 near Newark Penn Sta. has OPENED BACK UP for local NJT service. I also spotted a diesel loco. F-40-PH-2-CAT #4119 heading towards Trenton or Raritan. We arrive Newark Penn Sta. around 2:35PM, just in time to hear the PATH train doors close, and passengers trying to hurry to the train. Another PATH pulled up from the 2-track storage yard right behind the one that left for WTC. NJT Comet IV train pulled out of Newark on its way to NYP, it's trailing end cab car #5017.
Since I was a railfan, I decided to stay on the platform to observe and watch the tracks and trains. An AMTRAK Metroliner was heading for Washington at that time. My dad and I waited for the 3:06PM train to High Bridge. After the train displayed on the departure screen, I headed to track 5 but informed my dad I was going to Railfan for awhile. I was just in time to see an AMTRAK Crescent train serving passengers on its way to New Orleans. I met several friendly Redcaps and Officers who worked there. As the Crescent train pulled out, I decided to head to the Raritan Valley line train, to meet my dad. We boarded a non-refurbished Comet II rail car #5665, to find out in astonishment that there was NO A/C. After awhile on the trip, I couldn't stand it and started to sweat, but the ride to High Bridge was great.
While at High Bridge taking pictures, I observed the F40-PH2-CAT #4123 locomotive that led our trip. The weather didn't seem so hot, and my father and I had a real experience UP CLOSE at a rail and crossed it. I got to observe the diesel loco. very closely. Nothing odd, just the way as that locomotive should be. Since there were no engineers, passengers, or crew out on the platform, I got to "hitch a ride" while the locomotive was stationary and got a picture there. Boy that cab height was REALLY HIGH! You had to JUMP to reach to the ground or the first step!
We rode the #5665 back to Newark, to find out that the A/C kind of worked. It was better than the last trip. Someone opened the compartment below the end door area to fix it. Better than no A/C.
At Newark, we traveled back to track #4 to find out that the 6:00PM NJT exp. was 15 minutes late. (HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? EQUIPMENT FAILURES? I'm not shouting, I want to point out to SubTalkers how this happened.) Thank the Lord that train was readily available when we got to the platform. But I noticed an odd thing.
There was a set of Comet IV rail cars on track #3 at Newark. The LCD Destination sign marked "DOVER", but the Newark announcer stated "Track 3 NOT IN SERVICE". While our NEC train was in motion, I noticed one of the car (it was #5537, sorry I missed the ALP-44 #). Hmm. I wonder what that was. (DOES ANYONE HAVE BACKGROUND KNOWLEDGE AS TO WHY THAT TRAIN WAS STANDING ON TRACK 3 at Newark?)
I enjoyed the express ride back home with my dad. Luckily, the heat wasn't strong enough to expand the catenary wires in that area, so we had a safe and fast ride. We couldn't find any seating, so we moved up to car #1350 to find NO A/C and I'm sure the entire train, or #1351 (the lead car) had no A/C also. So we stayed in the vestibule. (Trust me the vestibule is COOLER than the train inside!) But I noticed another odd thing. At Metropark, I spotted a pack of SIX Comet IV rail cars arriving at Metropark. The time was around 6:35PM. I recall that NO weekday train is scheduled to be on that time. I guess it was the 6:10PM from Metuchen that arrived 20 minutes LATE. I enjoyed the track view. Safe trip back home.
It's a long posting, but please bear with me. The questions which I have asked would be GREATLY APPRECIATED if someone had accurate responses to them. Until next time...
Railfan Pete.
Third rail may help, but it is too much for the MTA's Metro-North funding to install and manufacture and ship third rail equipment rail vehicles. Third rail is suitable for trains which go at a LOWER SPEED than the HI-V trains which go at HIGH SPEEDS with a catenary wire.
The catenary wiring in the New Haven and Midtown Manhattan area is in need of repair. Officials say that it will be a 10-year project.
Railfan Pete.
Third Rail????
Third Rail is limited to 100mph, and on a 750V application, it is limited to about 8,000hp per train, one train per section. Third Rail isn't safe at more than about 1,000V. Third Rail at 750V also require substations roughly every three miles.
If you recall, the power consumption of the Acela trainset is roughly 14,000hp per train.
Anyone thinking that 3rd rail is suitable for NEC applications needs their head examined. Third Rail is as suitable for the NEC as a velvet dress is suitable for my going swimming in Lake Erie.
I said the 3rd rail is SUITABLE for SLOWER SPEEDS and SHORTER DISTANCES. The Hi-V catenary wires is suitable for longer distances and higher speeds.
The person with the owner of the First Thread stated They really should run with 3rd rail which fares better in climates with wide temp ranges, screw the CT NIMBY's.
There is a BIG difference between using the third rail and catenary wire. Metro-North SHOULDN'T use 3rd rail because it is not a slow speed or a short-distance train.
Railfan Pete.
OK. As for my previous post, I didn't mean to offend any conductors out there. As a matter of fact, my friend Ron recently became a conductor. I don't dislike conductors. In fact, I'm totally agains OPTO and automation. So, any conductors that are mad, I bow to your feet. I don't want any conductors reading this to be taking every train I board out of service. :)
>>I don't want any conductors reading this to be taking every train I board out of service. :)
<<
Nah, they'll just make sure you get stuck in a door and drag you for a few feet. OOOOPPPS.
Why would any responsible Crew member take any train out of service just because they don't like who's riding their train. As for your comments on connections I don't agree with most of what you said. Most Conductors do good work and don't miss a connection just so he or she can get the riders pissed off at them. There are valid reasons why some connections are not made. You have to look at the big picture before you blame the Conductor. It is very easy to sit back and point fingers when your not out there doing the job every day.
I have to say if you think you can do the job better then the current TA Workers then why don't you take the test like everyone else who works for TA. Then you can try your way and see if it works out. I am a "Real TA Conductor" and I could tell you your way would not work. Maybe you should ride with a real conductor for one day and see how it is.
In most cases when connections are missed one of the two train are late or early. If there on time then they should be arriving in the station at the same time. In most cases the train not making the connection is late because otherwise there would be holding lights. In TA you are NOT suppose to run ahead of schedule and it is hard to do with the many of riders that ride the train and hold the doors for someone walking down the stairs and didn't pay there fare yet.
Now about the Conductors you say purposely slam doors to make passengers miss their connections well they should not be conductors and I am not defending them. Don't say every Conductor does it that way because of a few bad apples and believe me if what your sayings is true they will have labor relations in their future.
Whats this about glass bottles being trown at the Conductor? Do you really think that doesn't happen. Conductors are always getting injured because something was trown at them. I'll give you acouple of cases. 1. A female Conductor on a Downtown No.6 was hit with a snapple bottle at 96 Street while observing the platform. She was knocked out . 2. A Female classmate of mind was almost punched in the face while her downtown No.1 train was leaving 207 Street but she put the window up in time and his fist hit the window. 3. A Conductor on a No.4 train was hit in the head with a battery at 167 Street. 4. One female Condcutor was hit with piss from a cup at Rector Street.
I can go on and on but I'll stop right here.
Damn. I have a new respect for C/Rs. Especially No 6 pelham bay park. And believe you me, the Conductor is the gateway to becoming a Motorman. I know several Motormen who are former C/Rs. If I was a C/R i would be nice. But sometimes u gotta be real with these people! I remember i was on the E once and a C/R was like 'Please release the doors". i would tell them straight up like this.
RELEASE THE DOORS IN THE REAR.
besides there are alot of C/Rs who aren't nice. There was one C/R who said this once on the W on its first day "LOOK I DONE TOLD YOU 3 WAYS TO GET THERE! NO GO AWAY!!!
But there are more good fruit in the C/R barell than bad ones. So if it was me, i would try to appreciate the C/Rs. Conductors do their job well and they need more respect
I have heard conductors threaten to take a train out of service if the doors weren't released. I think it's a great idea!
1. You would turn every other passenger on the guy who held the doors, resulting in his being ripped apart, Day of the Dead like.
2. A lot less people would hold doors on rush hour trains.
3. You could laminate the arms, legs, head, etc. of the passenger and display them in a station to remind people what happens when they hold open doors.
350 rush hour passengers on platform after train is taken out of service because jerk held door.
Jerk: NO! NO! Please!!!!!
Passengers: Brains! Brains! Made us late for work!
R143 cars 8104 and I think 8103 along with two other cars whose numbers I did not get were spotted on the Uptown A train platform for about 15 seconds then left probably headed to the 207th Street yard
R143 cars 8104 and I think 8103 along with two other cars whose numbers I did not get were spotted on the Uptown A train platform for about 15 seconds
It would really help if you noted the station stop you sighted them.
Yes #8104 and #8103 are in service as we speak. They are so rare, though, as if they aren't even there running on the subway. But two other cars? Wow. I saw #8101 (the first car of the pack) in a photo in a yard on a carriage, but it's not in service yet. I wonder when Kawasaki IND. are going to finish the fleet and which line it was going to replace.
Also, did you catch the end of the R143 train? Did it have a letter of the line that it served?
Railfan Pete.
Non of the cars are in serivce. Theyare just being tested. 8103-8104 are aslo hooked up to 8101-8102, they are four units. The two A cars in this set are 8101 & 8104.
Robert
Really? Then they must be testing periodically on the L - Canarsie line. That's the info. I picked up from the nycsubway.org Canarsie page.
Railfan Pete.
Actually, they're being tested on the Rockaway line north of Broad Channel.
Ok. Thanks for the info. Do they have a yard in that area?
Railfan Pete.
Auxiliary straight track was built specifically for tessting trains, I believe they test braking there.
how could they be in service
8104 and 8103 IN SERVICE
I see them all the time on the test track just north of the Broad Channel station. I'll ge the numbers next time I get a chance.
About six weeks ago, I was in the last car of a Jamaica Center bound E train at the Supthin Blvd. station, and heard that now familiar AC traction motor whine and thought, at first, it was a 142a being tested, but turned around and looked out, and saw immediately the wider width and longer lenth and black front of the 143 as it picked up its pace.
About a week ago I plugged an exhibit about the High Line at the Municipal Art Society. Unfortunately, it was taken down a few weeks ahead of schedule, so, on the off chance that someone was curious to see it, I figured I should warn them away now. It might go up later in the year in another space, but I don't know anything for sure.
Seth
Today the Friends of the High Line were On the Line on WNYC talking about what they want to do with it.
you can hear thursday mornings program on the high line by
1. go to
http://www.nyc.org/
2. go to the bottom of the page
click on QUICK LINKS
select ON THE LINE
click on GO
3. you'll see a whole list of segments done on "on the line"
in thursday's listings click on "on the high line"
YOU'LL NEED REAL AUDIO...
I love this! Mapquest is cool! I was hearbroken when Globexplorer stopped offering this service for free. Thank goodness for MQ!!
ENY
The Manhattan views are a bit clearer.
tony, thanks. that was a real treat.
I can see that. On my trip around the subway several Saturdays ago with my dad, I saw one J train travel from the rail yard which is located (and in the picture) adjacent to it. A lot of sparks from the third rail too. That's when my dad and I got off to substitute for the A train to 34 St. Penn.
: )
Railfan Pete.
See the New York State GIS Clearinghouse Interactive Mapping Gateway for somewhat clearer results. Unfortunately, you'll need to install special software to get the best views, but there are links to a few free packages. In particular, look in BROOKLYNSE_tile1.
last night there was a garbage train w/ 5 r33wf's at flushing main street. i don't remember any of the numbers. travel late at night enough and you'll see just about anything on a garbage train. my favorite had to be the r30 garbage trains on the 8th avenue that were run for a brief few weeks after they were retired from revenue service. i sometimes saw 2-3 different trains of r30's go by while waiting for the C on CPW.
If you have a chance you should go up to 239th street yard, where there is a R-12 train in suprising good shape with the old blue and white colors of the late 70's.
I haven't been up and down the road for some time until about two months ago. Being out there on a regular basis again brings back memories. A lot of familiar faces still exist.
Anyhow, I don't recall why I thought of this particular memory at the time but I remembered how I would encounter a violinist fairly regularly during my travels. I had this thought about two weeks ago. This violinist mostly traversed the Queens corridor. He looked to be in his 50's, mostly bald with white hair around the sides and thick rimmed glasses. He carried his violin in side a beat up case. He almost always had a troubled, but not mean expression on his face. To me, he fit the troubled artist mold. Someone who brought happiness to others but could not find it for himself. In my opinion, his playing was fantastic. Besides, take into account that he was playing on a moving train. He would play medleys that would cater to just about all tastes. I always considered it a treat, especially when he played in my operating car. He put a smile on my face, though I never saw a smile on his, and made me temporarily forget that I still had 3 1/2 trips on the E left to do. So I wondered if he was still around after all these years.
I was making my way home last night and was at Roosevelt ave. when lo and behold, there he was! Looked very much the same and had his beat up violin case with him. The sad part was that when we were on the platform, I noticed that he was peering into the garbage can. I hope he was only looking for a News or Post. I really hope to catch one of his future performances. Hope you liked the story and wanted to know if anybody else had enjoyed one of his performances?
If you or anyone else ever has the time, buy the guy a meal on the street in a sitdown place ... ask him his story. When I worked there 30 years ago, I had to report to Stillwell for a split when I lived in the Bronx. I tended to hang out among the water balloon races (and picked up extra money building controllers for them) at Coney but lived in the Bronx. On the deadheads each way (and occasionally when operating) I'd take in the carfulls of people.
As a conductor, wore the monkey suit both ways (made flashing ID at the gates go a lot faster - when I became a motorman and didn't wear the monkey suit, I'd end up being waved back to the booth by the TBA to actually LOOK at the ID card before I could go throught he gate) and since I was in uniform in the conductor phase of my gig, I'd spend most of my time answering questions, pointing to exits and saying "here's your stop."
As a motorman though, I was just another jeans-wearing hungry hairy freak on the subway in hippie times. I'd get left alone. THIS in turn allowed me to play "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" and I enjoyed it immensely. I'd often sit and talk to the various artists and panhandlers and say, "I ain't buying you booze or drugs, but you look like you could use a steak right now" ... a half hour sitdown with them gave me better stories than you'll ever see on teevee.
But those folks are in the subway doing their thing in hopes of eating. It's that simple. For so many who don't cover their anuses with suits, life isn't all that easy - especially in a city that insists on eating everything you have no matter WHAT you have. I can dig where the guy's coming from. He needs someone to be nice to him and make him feel as though living is still worth it. Much more expensive than tossing a buck in a hat, but worth every penny ... sorry for coming off like a liberal, but people is people and if they're willing to be nice, they deserve your time. It's the flaming rectal tissue in life that should be ignored ... to put it on a religious angle, "God is in every one of us if we'd show it."
Very true.
The one thing that made it worth living in the city was taking in the sidewalk acts. I mean, let's face it, if you're a NATIVE New Yorker, you've never done the statue of liberty or gone to the 86th on the Empire State Building. I only got to either of these (as well as cruising the Circle Jerk) when I had friends from out of town come visit and THEY wanted to do las tourista mielda ... but it was always just copping a squat somewhere and just taking it all in that was a better show than you'd EVER get in Disneyland East ...
Some folks are morons ... others, especially those you'd LEAST expect, turned out to be absolute treasures once they stopped wondering if you were "queer or something" ... lemme put it this way. John Lennon would play for hat money on the subway as well as his usual Saturday morning jam in Washington Square Park ... since I was buddies with (ick!) David Peel, I got to shoot the sheet with Lennon and his biggest thrill was NOBODY recognized him when he played the bum. That was HIS sidewalk act.
Meanwhile, we sit and watch TimeWarner cable in our cozy little bunkers and outside, not scheduled nor advertiser supported, is the best show there is ... life can be fun. Never take life too seriously and beware of those who do. Live by this rule and there's plenty of entertainment to be had, and the price, only what the traffic will allow in small unmarked bills, delivered to me, Ralph Icebag by a brown-shoed square in the dead of night. :)
I've heard accordianists who are pretty good, too. I always give them change. A lot of the violinists are really bad. I'd be curios to hear this guy.
My friend Dennis has a singing group called the Five Jades. They've actually been called one of the best amateur groups around. They do accapella and harmonies and are very good. They all have other jobs and do this as a hobby. They've even made several albums. So, one day they're going to a gig. While they're waiting for their train, they decide to practice on the platform. After about a minute, people starting trying to give them money! My friend tried to explain that they didn't need it, but people kept doing it anyway! Because none of them had hats, I'm wondering if the public just started throwing money at them!
hey michalovic, you think we should go up to the city with our guitars and see how we make out!!!!
There's a gentleman who I've encountered a few times over the years at 14th and 6th on the L... I would guess him to be a Holocaust survivor from his age and the tunes he played. Last time I saw him was about a year ago (which was the last time I've been through that station)... listened to him for about half an hour and left him a generous donation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did you at least detach one of those sodas from your torso and give it to him? Or get your buddy The Hamburglar to hook him up with a couple of burgers? Sheesh!
...are you the Eggman?
LOL! I wrote you an e mail and you haven't gotten back to me. Let me know what's up! Enjoy your yard posting!
Do I really drink too much soda?
Must have been ten years ago -- I remember a violinist who played on the Number 7 line. He played Carmen, and I gave him at least two dollars. Wore a checkered suit jacket, was quite tanned with several dark spots on the side of his face, and he actually DID smile.
A few weeks later, I rode the 7 train again. And lo and behold, there he was. I asked him to play Carmen again. And he gladly obliged.
And then I haven't seen him anymore.
Could this be the same guy???
Nah, doesn't sound like him.
Only annoucments from the crew is they are having signal trouble at 57th street. All the Q's crawled up the Broadway Express. I was passed by three locals and they didn't wait at the express stops.
Anyone know WHAT the signal trouble was?
Couldn't switch between express tracks at 57th?
I would take a guess that the heat probably had something to do with it.
Take a look at the uptown platform of 23rd St. Broadway. Two heats on the southern end against the wall. Yup the wall, there isn't an exit there.
I hope no tourist is going round and round in that HEET trying to get out of the system >G<.
Why it si not The Absolutely Last Field Trip to Newark City Subway??
I am sure SOME OF YOU out there are going to want to ride the LRV's on the Newark Subway....
>G<
The Chambers Street station to me is an amazing station on it's own. It's shear size alone grabs my attention. Four tracks, three island platforms which use to have 2 side platforms. It reminds me of a chapel in size. I see a great promise if a full renovation is done, so that maybe just maybe in the near future the 2 western most tracks and be used for J,M,Z service to Downtown Manhattan/ Brooklyn and the two eastern most tracks can be used for a brooklyn to manhattan line. A full renovation with the side platforms fully reopened and retiled. The Platforms repaved, the track bed fixed up, the track configuration changed and set up for the new service. I see a great promise if everything is set up properly. New staircases, new paint and beautiful station artwork. It would be expensive, but for a station with such a bad history the type of rehab that would need to be done would do it justice.
A pre christie type service would be widely accepted especially today with a lack of service to the core of Chinatown. What would the line be called and what would its terminus be? Maybe have the old Nassau R train return to service. Except having it go through the bridge.
Chris Rivera
MidnightDragon
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
AARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH..
I Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee It .
But alas its a mental masturbation.. :-/
I hope it will come to pass, but, It could also be mantal masturbation...
well, got to go clean the mess up.
Thats a first on the sight, You must......really.......like ......that station quite much.....
Hey, Don't go mantel on us!! (hey that is the way you spelled it above).
yeah I was staring at my fireplace.. :-)
I am wornking on some plans for Chambers Street.
100% Mental what did you call it, it is true.
But if the dreamers don't dream and the naysayers don't naysay then the planers won't plan and the builders can't build.
So Dream on! It exercises the mind and sparks the imagination.
Anyway.... I have plans for a K train that will terminate at Chambers Street, so as soon as I finish polishing it, I'll post it where it can be seen.
Elias
I'm all for restoring the outer platforms BUT some of it was actually LOST when they did the Brooklyn Bridge rehab in the 1960s. I would recreate it on the west side, restore it on the east, but FIRST -
CALL THE PLUMBERS! Fix the leaks, restore the concrete, make it safe first. THEN renovate.
AND bring back the original halophane lights, not the kind you see in Home Depot.
Nice thoughts.
wayne
It's so darn inexplicable why the city would allow such a huge, complex and heavily used station right under City Hall to deteriorate to such a condition, when less important, stations in better condition have been completely rehabbed.
The Platforms repaved, the track bed fixed up, the track configuration changed and set up for the new service. I see a great promise if everything is set up properly. New staircases, new paint and beautiful station artwork. It would be expensive, but for a station with such a bad history the type of rehab that would need to be done would do it justice.
Great ideas. I'm sure the MTA hasn't forgotten about Chambers St. It's all in the heart. Once the 2000-2004 Capital Program funding is done and spent, we might see some changes, but not for awhile, because MTA is concerned about more important things now. (Although they have renovated some minor stations compared to Chambers St. (J/M/Z)
Try the local stations of the Broadway N,R line below 34 St (downtown) Manhattan. I have received countless service advisories about how they are renovating those stops with all of the details you have mentioned. Probably it will come... if the MTA can allot sufficient funding for it. But if construction is to begin, they will have to terminate all trains at Canal St. for SOME TIME. We will miss the old Chambers St...
Railfan Pete.
While on the trip to High Bridge with my dad, around the unused tracks at "Lebanon" train station, I saw the formerly owned PRR and NJT URHS railcars! They are left there standing and one of the NJT owned cars (they have the NJT tri-colored stripes)had a number of URHS #1351 and 4 others. There are a total of around 9-10 cars total, some which were owned by the PRR and red and blue painted cars.
Does anyone know what these old and historical PRR and NJT trains were doing there? (I think they are going to leave them there for awhile. ) and what authority is going to do with them? Most of the cars there were rusted and had paint peelings. The seating is like that (OF COURSE) of a regular PRR train (green, I had to try to catch the inside while the train I was on was moving)
Any more background info. I should know?
Railfan Pete.
During the past 2 weeks, I have spent a lot of time in Williamsburg. After studying the Williamsburg Bridge more closely, I noticed that there appeared to be no vertical suspension cables to support the spans on either side going from the anchors to the towers. Rather, laticed sub-structures do the job. This is the only suspension bridge I have seen with this strange construction. Was this the original design for the bridge, or were the cables removed and the under-supports added later?
Clearly this is an older bridge, designed before the present kind of suspension bridge was built. Look at how the Brooklyn Bridge is built too. It was designed as a railroad - transit type bridge, since it pre-dates the automobile.
Yes, more information on this bridge would be delightful.
There are some really great pictures of the bridge on the abandoned Stations website: http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/
Elias
Was this the original design for the bridge, or were the cables removed and the under-supports added later?
It is the original design.
This is the only suspension bridge I have seen with this strange construction..
The lack of suspended side spans is by no means unique. The closest example would be the Bear Mountain Bridge.
I just had a wild thought. The latest version of the suspension bridge has its cables along the center line of the bridge. (I know there is a name for this design, but I can't remember it.) Picture putting heavy rail over one of these. Has it been done? Can it?
Its called a Cable-Stayed bridge (I think)
I think you're right. Do any of them carry rail traffic?
The Willie B does have suspender cables. Look bertween the pairs of x braces and you'll see the suspender cables.
x''x''x
x is the x brace and ' is a suspender rope. there are two cable pairs-one pair for the outer roadway and one pair for the inner.
I have some US Survey maps of NYC, the originals were made in 1967 with a photo-recon update in the late 70's. These maps show both the Myrtle and The Third Avenue (Bronx) Els.
Anyway, I can hardly look at a map without creating new subway lines on it, and so for those who are interested here is a new K train service running from our recently beloved Chambers Street Terminal to Marathon Parkway in Queens. This is a new line, it crosses the Williamsburg Bridge, and is elevated all of the way. It is envisioned on "Y" shaped concrete risers running down the center of each street, with a grassy boulevard protecting the structure.
The southern end is three tracks, north of Queens Boulevard it runs along the Long Island Expressway right of way, probably over the south service road. The structure is designed for quiet operation, with curves and geometry to allow fast operation.
The K-Train route is shown on this quick and dirty .GIF.
One obvious error that I'll need to correct is that it's Transfer Point with the Queens Boulevard Line is with the G and R trains, and not the E and F as shown.
Let me know what you think.
Elias
Grand Ave in Queens is called Grand Street in Brooklyn--it proabably was Grand St. in Queens too until its current N-S streets/E-W Avenue system was adapted.
I had an idea for a "K" train too. It would share the 14th St line with the (L), then cut off aften Lorimer St, remaining on Metropolitan Ave into Queens, with a connection to the (M), then cut off at Yellowstone Blvd, meet the E/F/G/R/V (whatever routes) follow Jewell Ave and 73rd Ave until Alley Pond Park.
The eastern half of that could result in NIMBY hell, so maybe routing it by Union Tpke would be easier.
:-) Andrew
it proabably was Grand St. in Queens too
Yes it was. In fact there was a Grand St. station on the LIRR Main Line between Woodside and Rego Park, in the 1920's. Here's a picture
By the way, on Elias' map, it should be Forest Ave., not St.
I noticed the attribution on that picture. I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Ziel at a church yard sale in the Hamptons a few weeks back. Great collection of station pictures. My father-in-law and I picked up copies of the original Good Ground station (Hampton Bays) as well as pictures of Elmhurst (long gone) and real old Forest Hills ones.
By Kenesa Blvd. they probably mean Kissena Blvd...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Also, Marcy Street is Avenue, and Lawrence St should more appropriately be College Point Blvd. Nitpicking aside, great plan :).
The E/F at Queens Blvd isn't necessarily an error. While we're dreaming, Woodhaven Blvd could be converted to an express stop; the provisions are already there.
And Forest Street is Forest Avenue.
I'm surprised he didn't put in Cross Island Blvd instead of Francis Lewis Blvd.
But I don't care, the only street naming crime that really irks me is when people say Bowery Street or Bowery Avenue instead of just Bowery.
Bowery Road at least would be acceptable.
The Bowery.
here.
Problems Kissena Blvd typo.
The engineering at Queens Blvd and LIE is scary.
The ROW over the LIE is an inspired choice but the residents ate a big expansion/construction project already, those trains better be damn quiet.
How can you skip a connection to the L during rush hour?
Marcy has alot of traffic already if that is the Marcy you mean. A line is not worth it unless you can add lots of service. Why build that only to runn 6 trains an hour during rush unless you mean to renovate Marcy.
I would also add if you got this Woodhaven would have to become an express stop. Supposedly it was designed for conversion.
Now how about using the LIE ROW all the way in and then cutting in to the G at Greenpoint then branching off to the restored MANNY B.
You should send that stuff over to the MTA planning department. I'm sure that you can find out what the e-mail address is from the MTA website.
It sounds like a good idea and I'm always in favor of increasing the reach of mass transit.
>>>You should send that stuff over to the MTA planning department. I'm sure that you can find out what the e-mail address is from the
MTA website.
It sounds like a good idea and I'm always in favor of increasing the reach of mass transit. <<<
Local community boards and nimbys will never, ever allow another el to be built...cf. the current hoo-ha abt extending the Astoria line to LaGuardia...
www.forgotten-ny.com
"and nimbys will never, ever allow another el to be built..."
They would never let another *anything* *ever* be built.
And people familiar with the present Els would be right, but modern elevateds cf LIRR lines, are quiet, and almost invisible from ground level. A prperly engineered project could work. Certainly along the LIE there is no problem.
Elias
>> They would never let another *anything* *ever* be built. <<
I heard a new acronym recently...BANANAS "Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything Syndrome" (or "Near Anyone"--take your pick).
I like it, especially since it describes their state of mind,
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
It will be interesting to listen to the Airtrain in operation over the Van Wyck. If it is really that quiet, perhaps attitudes will change.
I really like the concept, because it is serving areas that are really underserved today.
During rush hours, I would short-turn your locals at the stop where you go from 3 tracks to 2 (84th Street?) Your express trains would be pretty full by then.
I would also make the connection to the L an express stop.
Of course, this would never be built.
Thank you (and all) for your comments. I will work some more on this drawing and post a revision later this weekend.
Yes, I looked at a map, and tried to discern:
1) Where there was an underservice,
and 2) what could be put in effeciently (with least disturbance to people and existing infrastructure).
People here had been railing against the idea of extending lines, since this would bring more people onto services that are already saturated, and or try to access crossings that are maxed out.
I thought that the Willie B was not maxed out (though I could be wrong on this) and there already is adequate terminal space at Chambers Street. It was almost like *starting* at Chambers Street and then asking myself where can I bring this thing.
I like the idea of connecting to the 14th Street line in addition to the Williamsburg Bridge. This will allow us to run more tpi, and would eliminate the need for an express station with the connection to the (L) train, since have of the service would divert onto 14th Street.
Elias
i like it.
Does anyone in SubTalk-land know where I can find route/terminal roll signs in JPEG form for the R16, R32, R38, R40, R40M, and R42 trains with the 1967 Chrystie subway bullet colors? I have seen several web sites with pre-Chrystie roll sign content and the current variety, but not those with the 1967 subway line colors. Note: I have seen R. Marrero's subway bullets site with both the 1967 and current bullet colors.
Thanks,
Jose
I’ve seen Mr. Marrero’s bullets too, and it appears to me like there’s an answer to why the Manhattan-to-Brooklyn via West End route once held by the B train is now called W. The answer can be found here by scrolling below.
Next weekend the northbound 1 will be running express from 72nd to 96th and the southbound 1 will be running express from 72nd to 42nd. Both practices have been common in the past few months, but I don't think they've ever taken place at the very same time. I can't wait to see the resulting confusion.
The GO announcements don't even account for the double GO. As always, they instruct passengers coming from local stations to transfer at 79th and at 59th. Aside from the pointlessness of sending passengers further than they need to go (sure, 72nd doesn't have a crossover inside fare control, but neither does 79th; and there's no reason to send passengers all the way to 59th when 66th has a crossunder of its own; and, besides, the TA has no business sending passengers who are already forced out of their way on even more of a wild goose chase just because they don't feel like properly staffing the turnstiles at 72nd), trains in the other direction are bypassing those stations! Anyone who attempts to follow instructions will be in for a nasty surprise and will have to continue all the way to 96th or 42nd to reverse.
Incidentally, both local tracks at 72nd will be out of service as a result of these GO's. Given the crowds that will undoubtedly fill the narrow platforms, perhaps the TA should construct temporary platform extensions over the local tracks.
Got to finish the 42nd Street and 72nd Street Station jobs somehow.
Aren't these GO's in the early AM, anyway?
Maybe, but the early AM passenger load in this city is roughly equivalent to the PM rush in many other cities.
Not.
I rode the Lex 3:30-4:30 a.m. for a couple of years. Plenty of seats.
The two times I rode the late night 2 (both early Sunday morning, one shortly after midnight and one around 1), enough people boarded at 42nd that, not only were there no empty seats, there wasn't much room to stand, either.
>> equivalent to the PM rush in many other cities <<
spread out over a few more trains and a little more track!
No, these are all weekend long. There are often GO's in effect overnight during the week, too, but these are the standard Saturday 12:01am - Monday 5:00am deal.
This weekend's, for a change, started Sunday morning. It was supposed to end Monday morning, but as of 6pm, locals were stopping on the local track at 96th and there were passengers waiting on the northbound platform at 86th, so I guess the work wrapped up early.
Of course, but these two GO's don't have to be in effect at the very same time.
My records only go back to April 21, but, with two exceptions in late May, there have been service adjustments on the 1/9 every single weekend, in all but two cases all weekend long. Four weekends, all service ran express from 42nd to 72nd; four weekends, all service ran express from 72nd to 42nd; seven weekends, all service ran express from 72nd to 96th. At least I read the GO announcements so I know what to expect, since the only posters I've seen in my station (during the GO, before the GO, whenever) prominently announce which service is running through 63rd, conductors on rerouted local trains often make unclear announcements that send passengers back to the platform to wait for a train that won't come until Monday morning, and conductors on express trains rarely bother telling passengers that they shouldn't waste their time waiting for a local.
The local stations in question are busier than many express stations. The local stations in question get a great deal of weekend use. I can understand why service needs to be diverted (although I'd like to see a reprieve every third or fourth weekend -- I'm sick and tired of having to walk from 96th), but there's no need for all local service out of 72nd, in both directions, to be eliminated at the same time.
Incidentally, when trains run express from 72nd to 42nd, the local track is clear at both 72nd and 42nd, yet I don't think I've ever seen anyone take advantage of that at the 72nd end. I hope that's because no track work needs to be done at 72nd and that we're not going to see an entirely separate slew of reroutings just to work on the 72nd track.
Whoa! After a 3 day heat wave this is relief. However the phones died. I feel like a Motorman with a stalled train between stations with no radio contact to towers!!!
By the Way does NYCT need to take rain like this seriously?
I'm in Hastings-on-hudson and I did not lose my power at all today.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I live in Exton ,Pa. -30 miles west of Philly. We've had some severe
T-Storms, but the juice is still on!
Chuck Greene
Wow You're far away from New York. Well I guess the heat was not as strong as it was in NYC. Maybe more pollution and A/C's that are turned on every single alleyway apartments and homes tightly packed in NYC may increase the heat. Periodically, lights were lost in some subway stations like Wall St. (#4 and #5 trains NOT the #2 and #3 train station) and 23rd St. - Ely Av. (E,F Queens Blvd.)
I live in Edison, NJ and we got to the three -digits but our power never went out also. We just got hit by several T-storms too.
Railfan Pete.
Because I live so far away from NYC, I rarely get to ride any of the
subways in NYC. I'm hoping when I come up for the Hoboken festival
on Sept. 8th , that my friend from NYC will take me into the city so I can at least have a ride on a R-142. We'll take PATH from Hoboken
into town , then catch a R-142 somewhere on the IRT.
Glad you guys didn't lose your power. They had a real mess in Wayne. Pa., not far from me.
Chuck Greene
then catch a R-142 somewhere on the IRT.
If you're planning to catch an R142(A) on two of the 8 IRT lines, you may have to do a little waiting at the platform. As you may know, the R142(A) roster is not fully onto the tracks, some 13 trains are only on the #2 line and about the same is on the #6. These are the only two lines that you will find the R142(A)'s at this point in time.
The #3 and #5 lines are now planned to see R142(A)'s, but it hasn't happened now. It will happen AFTER all of the rosters are filled up for the initially planned (#2 and #6) lines.
If you're willing to take PATH directly into Midtown Manhattan, you will have to walk a block west to Penn Station for an IRT #2 train. This is the only line to see R142's in this area. Or if you wish, you may walk from there, far east at 33rd St. (only #6 trains stop here so you may have a chance) for the Lexington Av. (#4,5,6) lines, the grandeur of the IRT lines.
If you ever ride an express #4 or #5 train to/from downtown (lower) Manhattan, you'll notice something odd about the platforms. ...
I'm planning to be present at this year's Hoboken Festival too. I went for the first time last year, and I liked it.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Pete:
Thanks for the info. I hope they let us ride the Hudson-Bergen Line free again, like last year. I'd like to see the new stations they added since my visit last year. They had a bendable bus take us over
to the station. The first one wouldn't start so it lost it's title
as being "dependable-bendable". We all crowded on to a second bus and went over.
Chuck Greene
If you ever ride an express #4 or #5 train to/from downtown (lower) Manhattan, you'll notice something odd about the platforms.
And what might that be?
It is about 11:24 P.M. and there were some thinderstorms in the New York Metropolitan area but the power is still on where I am in Hastings-on-Hudson.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I lost my power on Tuesday night for 1.5 hours.
And I told my father we need to buy a backup generator.
Think about a UPS.
And a UPS power the lights, the refrigerators, televisions and the air conditioner?
No, but it will keep your computer going long enough for you to run out to the barn or down the basement or wherever to turn on the diesel (which should have kicked in automatically but didn't).
A few years back, a severe thunderstorm literally flooded the F-line from 179th St to Kew Gardens. Water was up over the platforms, and cascading down the stairways. the storm was dumping over three inches of rain in half an hour, and topside there was a flash flood in Hillside Ave from 188th St to Sutphin Blvd. I saw this from the bus that I had to take because the trains were put out of service.
One good soaker can really cause a headache.
The Taking of Pelham 123 will be showing next weekend (17-18-19) at the Film Forum on E.Houston.
Don't miss this chance to see it in 35mm on a real screen!
Come and yell along with Frank and Caz!
Isn't the theme of the Film Forum for that week "NYPD"? Too bad the theme is not subways in general, otherwise "Money Train" would be included in the film fest.
Oh, BTW, don't you forgot to mention "The Warriors" will also be featured on the big screen there.
BMTman
Also, The Wrong Man, The Naked City, and The French Connection are a part of this series (and have links to nycsubway.org for "Information about the subways in this film"). Makes it look like crime and the subway go hand-in-hand :).
Check out the photo on Film Forum's website for Pay or Die, playing last night and tonight: Ernest Borgnine hugging a pillar at Canal St station.
The French Connection rocks.
repeat:
rocks.
The Taking of Pelham 123 will be showing next weekend (17-18-19) at the Film Forum on E.Houston.
I'm good for a Friday night screening if anybody's interested. Maybe we can MST3K it (grin)?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Go to filmforum.com for more info
I know nothing about this group other than what I see on its web site, but Take a Walk, New York! is leading a free walk over the Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge this Sunday at 8 in the morning(!). The meeting place is outside the York Street F station.
Assuming I wake up in time, I plan on being there. I'll probably spend a few hours afterwards chasing GO's, so if anyone wants to meet up, let me know.
See the aforelinked web site for information on future walks. The nine-month program began on May 19 but only walks through September are posted so far.
If you took the last Open Competitive exam and are on the list or are planning to take the next one, LISTEN UP!
When you get here, you will I repeat will hear a lot of bulls**t about being from the street. Everyone will ask you what you did before just so they can justify their complaints. Meanwhile, they don't have the balls to pipe up to 130 Livingston St. with their "concerns". They just live to give you grief and make you that much more nervous and unsure.
Then they complain when you're not confident enough to run a train like they do. They seem to think that if you cleaned or fixed tracks, or sold tokens in a booth you're perfectly qualified to operate a train.
This is why us "street" guys (gals) need to be involved in the TWU. We need people who will look out for us. "They" will not do that. I for one will be getting heavily involved in the TWU and hope that if you choose not to that you will support me when the time comes.
Were you from the second class off the streets?
Did you here Ed and Tim's welcome speech? Thing first thing out of their mouths was "The union dropped the ball letting you guys in". Since they forgot we are from the street and not yet hard of hearing they dedided to repeat that a few times even after someone protested that as a welcome speech.
We were not issued radios and sometimes there are no loner ones at the dispatchers, does the union try to get us some NO, they tell the conductors don't loan them to the T/O's. I respect that, except for the fact that some C/O's won't answer the radio if their lives depended on it.
Some a-holes in the A division and on the Stl-N decide no one should take students and the TA threatens to get tough, the union tells them to take us but don't let us operate and rate us unqualified. The forms don't even have a rating and Tim and Ed say we should never give any info on fellow members and that T/O's should not rate other T/O's but they are telling others to rate us as unqualified. I don't think the TA handled the problem right but the union response was to crap on us.
The 'union' disability policy stinks unless you have a preexisting condition, then it is just expensive.
CIYD pulls stuff to keep us out of the yard and give the OT to their people, the union is upset not for us but because they can't get those jobs covered by RDO OT.
And they screwed up the health benefits for a bunch of us while telling us we must march to protect them.
I was also told that COPE for us is more than for the old timers but that I am not sure of so I won't put that out as fact.
All public employee unions have to answer for the super rich pensions that those of prior generations got, which have been paid for by lower wages for new employees ever since.
New public employees pay nearly six percent of their salary into the pension fund; the employer pays zero. Those hired before 1980 pay nothing into the pension fund; the employer pays twelve percent of their salaries.
Existing retirees, who raided the treasury in the Lindsay years and moved away, leaving the City and Subway in ruins, just got pension raises of up to 50 percent by act of the state legislature. Now the pension funds are broke, and employer contributions are going up. What now? Lower wages? Layoffs? Deferred maintenance?
Unions always screw the next generation. No longer the next generation has not wanted to join them. Union membership started to decline when they went for two tier contracts, with over paid and under worked Archie Bunkers, sitting in seniority no-work jobs, living of the next generation.
New York State's motto is officially Excelsior (ever upward). I reccommend changing it to Tondere Et Aufugere (fleece and flee).
Not to be a nitpicker, but you'll enjoy this about our lovely New York State motto:
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
excelsior
SYLLABICATION:
ex·cel·si·or
PRONUNCIATION:
k-sls-r
NOUN:
Slender, curved wood shavings used especially for packing.
ETYMOLOGY:
Originally a trademark.
(SYLLABICATION: ex·cel·si·or PRONUNCIATION: k-sls-r
NOUN: Slender, curved wood shavings used especially for packing.
ETYMOLOGY: Originally a trademark. )
The production of excelsior is still a "use" in the NYC zoning resolution, under which most people working at home and many harmelss businesses are criminals. The production of excelsior is highly restricted. Until now, I didn't know what it was. And neither did anyone else at City Planning. "Shoddy" is also highly restricted.
Heh. When I worked for the state up here in Smallbany, I delighted in pointing to the state seal on all those glass doors and saying "packing material" ... alas, nobody got it. Don't feel bad.
And NYC has always had a legacy of insane regulations designed to get anyone with a dream to leave ... either you've got the juice to pay off everyone with a tin badge or you take your cottage industry and move to one. If I had a nickel for every palm I had to grease when I did manufacturing in the Bronx, well ... I'd have plenty of nickels. Up here, you only have to grease Joe Bruno and the local repub clubs and you can buy those cheap. :)
Excelsior was a trademark for a shredded wood product made in Hawkinsville, NY on the Black River.
Wonder if they can still sue? :)
No. If you fail to protect your mark, it becomes public domain. You can't unscramble an egg. This problem gives people at compamies like 3M kittens.
Heh. I know ... I hate like hell harassing "junior hobbyist software tycoons of da future" that they can't call their anti-trojan product "BOClean" ... but yeah, Calhoun da lawyer insists that we do it. Still don't like it, but them's the rules. (and folks wonder why I recoil at politicos) ...
Never heard of the stuff. What does it do?
Way off topic for here ... drop by our site - http://www.nsclean.com
Excelsior is a HIGHLY FLAMMABLE material
Duh. If you can't find any newspaper to start a fire in your fire place, wood shavings are a great substitute. The thinner, the better.
Existing retirees, who raided the treasury in the Lindsay years and moved away, leaving the City and Subway in ruins, just got pension raises of up to 50 percent by act of the state legislature. Now the pension funds are broke, and employer contributions are going up. What now? Lower wages? Layoffs? Deferred maintenance?
Well, no one said that the legislature HAD to grant those huge pension increases. Not that the legislators themselves care, what with their lifetime sinecures courtesy of New York's ancephalic voters.
It's often been said that NYC's public water system is the best in the country. Maybe that's true from an engineering standpoint, but there definitely is something in the H2O that causes brain damage in all who consume it.
It's not the water. It all the hot air that can never flow out of town. It affects people's thinking after a couple of days.
Get used to being treated like garbage for the next couple of years.
Since you didn't pay your dues the regular way as a Conductor, Station Agent, etc., you're paying in a quite different (and in my opinion, harder) way.
C'mon Z, that's a pretty sh*tty thing to say. Nobody should get used to being treated like garbage. Nobody should be treated like that at all unless something personally was done. They are good people. Just like all the other persons that came to TA at one time or another. Sure, you'll have some slackers, some shakers and some who you'd swear their brain was on Mars. But for the most part, good people. Perhaps you wound up befriending a T/O. This T/O had the same interests as you do and you two got along well together. Then one day during conversation you found out that this T/O was hired off the street. Then what? RTO/DOS should concentrate on working together instead of where everybody came from. Don't take the garbage.
>>>>>>>>>C'mon Z, that's a pretty sh*tty thing to say. Nobody should get used to being treated like garbage
I'm just being truthful here. You are fully aware that there is a lot of negative feelings towards these off the street T/O's, and I'm just telling it like it is out on the road. Eventually, it'll die down but until then, these off the street T/O's are going to have this stigma attached to them.
Personally, I feel the same way, but I just keep my mouth shut since saying nothing is better than saying something hostile.
Something like this goes around in cycles. Selkirk had to go through the exact same thing when he worked for the TA in the 70's.
Yepper, though it didn't seem to be as pronounced as this round. I often heard "short timer" behind my back, since I was a conductor for oh, about three months before I got promoted in the middle of a very large outflow of retirees ... back then it was, "I was a conductor for 15 years before I got my handles and this kid went through like sheet through an interlock." So yeah, been there but I at least scored on a well-timed promotional and they were DESPERATE to get someone, anyone to roll the trains.
I also want to say that despite some hard feelings among a few, I got along famously with enough people that were willing to take me under their wing, that it wasn't so bad and I could easily ignore the sour grapers ... I'm HOPING that the conditions I saw continue and each newbie will be judged SOLELY by how they "conduct" themselves in a professional manner and that those that demonstrate their skill and interest will be taken care of by the oldtimers just as I was ... and as to those that shouldn't be on the road, well ... help them with their career choices. But give them a chance FIRST ...
It's a hard enough job without extra scoops. :)
Just felt like adding a little piece to the times I went through, if it's of interest to everyone stuck in this latest "political moodswing" that is likely behind all this - for those of you who are watching the "kids come in and loot," try to bear in mind that much like my own situation, I saw an advert on a subway car riding home, "NYCTA Conductors earn $375 a week!" and all sorts of data on the card on the roofline with other NYCTA titles and what THEY paid.
That in turn prompted me to get a copy of "The Chief" and see what other "Civil Service LOOT" there was (come on, guys, you know the game as well as I) and put in an application. Took the test for conductor, waited a year and GOT IT ... WOO-FARKING-HOO! Better pay than I was getting fixing TV sets! WAY better! How did I know what was going on with retirements, route reassignments (As a casual rider, knew all about Chrystie, the mighty NX and all that stuff) and all sorts of behind the scenes screwing?
I saw old Mike Quill and Lindsay all the time on teevee, jousting, hissing and spitting. How did some poor asshole off the street know anything of the intrigue going on behind the scenes in the tunnels? (disregard that man behind the curtain!) Us poor schlumps believed the recruitment ads about how living one's life sitting on a bench, playing cards and waiting to see whuzzup was GLORIOUS! Heh. They don't tell the school car kidz whuzzup until they sign the checkoff on the payroll slip.
Where I'm going with this is, hey ... the "off the street T/O's" had no idea of their place in the sausage works ... they saw a chance to get their "biweekly nut" and went for it. Bad attitudes towards these guys would be justified if they were KNOWING CO-CONSPIRATORS ... they ain't ... they're just monkeys in a cage like everybody else out on the road ... this is the reason for my "give them a chance FIRST" thing. I played the monkey on a stick too and sure didn't appreciate the crap.
As I've admitted here before, I screwed up my career fair and square. But I might have done better and stayed longer were it not for the crap I got put through by some of my coworkers. In my own case, I took my guff for being both a "short timer" and "hanging out with the wrong (read that "colored") element" ... hell ... the brothers were short timers too in their eyes, but since I was on the craplist with the "REAL" old timers, I was brethren. Made it real for me. That's why I could put up with the other crap.
The new guys need friends ... MAKE some ... ain't their fault what the upper layers of the railroad is ... these poor schlumps didn't do anything wrong ... YET ... thus, giving them a hard time really is a bit unfair if you think about it ... EVERYBODY did a first run once. And yes, I do fully understand the "paying your dues" ... this whole trip laid on them already is payment ... at least in MY eyes. Sorry if this offends anyone, but these guys are victims too. Where's the butts of the former TWU council that allowed this craft change to pass?
Anyhoo, "the mass has ended, go in peace" ... just wanted to set forth my own feelings on this, acutely aware of BOTH sides of it and a bit of management experience to properly place the blame for these "kids" attacking the craft. Be SURE of your target when you pull the trigger. (Might be an E to Hudson Terminal) ...
The main gripe against the O/C T/O's is that everyone else waited 3 years to get to top pay. (unless PROMOTED) In house personnel are told that if they took the O/C test and get called they have to resign their position and be treated as new hires. Imagine being a C/R for 3 years and resigning to be "promoted" you lose 2 weeks vacation, accumulated sick time, benefits for 90 days?, no pay for your first day sick, no chance to go back to your old position if you don't like the job within one year without losing senority, & the possability of being sent back to the street if you screw up because you no longer have a previous title to go back to, and no union protection.
All this because TA rigged a test (that TSS's had a hard time passing) and claimed they didn't have enough "quailified" people within the system for the job. After the O/C test was "approved" by the union (instead of Train worker 1 & 2) another promotional test was given that almost all who took it passed. Unfortunatly the feeling around most terminals is that TA is trying the same thing with the T/D exam.
That most definitely sucks ... but clearly the problem here is with the union and management and not necessarily the poor schmoes that got hired up knowing nothing of this ... for what it's worth, this is the FIRST time I'm hearing any of the gory details and I am ex-TWU/NYCTA myself and worked for the state for an additional 12 years. Can't expect newbies to have had any idea of what they were stepping into here and they're even bigger victims than the rank and file given all this.
I really don't think the O/C T/O's are at fault in any of this. Unless they screw up of course ... hope y'all understand where I'm coming from. Had it been the new guys that had anything to do with causing this, back side of a monkey wrench for 'em ... but hell, I was WITH the show and I never heard any of this before.
I guess unionism that I believed in is deader than I thought. Your comments about giving up all accumulated rights and being made a new hire just to get a promotion p---me off and wake me up both. All along I thought TWU was still a solid union.
I had enough bad to say about the big shot BofLE in my MRL days and how they gave so much away to keep a contract.I agreed we had to upgrade some work rules...but giving up meals on 12 hour locals was criminal, and looking the other way when there was discipline was another thing I felt the BLE fell on badly. So it's no better with TWU?
Being aware that union members are a minority and they have to be glad for wages, benefits etc that a lot of other people don't have; aware that neither the yuppies nor the people who do the dirty low wage work have any love for union people...etc etc...but most painfully aware that if you rock the boat you may have no union at all. Managements would love it, someone else would always be willing to work for less....goodbye seniority...th bosses would assign people as they felt and you'd never see a holiday or weekend off and maybe work midnights for life if you were on the s--- list.
I guess a few things are left to be grateful for????
You are calling it like it is. Over here and A Div the O/C T/O's are one lonely bunch. You can always see them sitting by themselfs in the crewroom and the poor guys Conductors is talking about pulling the cord the first time the guy goes and half an inch passed the board. Then the T.S.S are bugging them and sometimes acting like their there best friends but then when there with the old timers or with Conductors their telling us to bang them in if they make a mistake. They get it the worst for sure but its hard for any new RTO employee. When they see new Conductor they say "Look at those Rookies".
I can see why the conductors are upset. Their chances for promotion are vastly deminished. But I can't see any reason for the other train operators to rebuff these guys. We all started somewhere. These guys are just starting as train operators.
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I'm hopeing that when the next Train Operator test comes out that it is also a Promotion as well. I really want to be a Train Operator but I really don't want to start all over again.
As I understand it, if you are in a formerly eligable title, nothing precludes you from taking the Open Competitive test. All things being equal, current employees should have an advantage simply by virtue of their familiarity with the system. The only difference is that since it is not listed as a promotional exam, you may not be entitled to the day off to take the test. While this may be unfair, a vac. day or AVA is a small price to pay.
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Congratulations Dude P250K
>>>>>>>I really want to be a Train Operator but I really don't want to start all over again.
But you know that you'll have to if you accept the position of T/O.
When I accepted the title of T/O, I had 4 years as a C/R, enough to have Sat/Sun off on the PM tour. I have absolutely no regrets, and if I had to give up 10 years worth of seniority, I would.
I know I will have to start over again and in the long run I don't think I would look back on it. I know alot of T/O's that where C/R's and they have no regrets.
Do ANY of you have any clue how LAME this hazing of newbies sounds to an outsider? F'r crissake, if the guy/gal passed the civil service test what IS YOUR PROBLEM? Either they can or can't do the work--like any other issue matters. If you think I as a rider give a flying _____ how many previous jobs the T/O had or what they were (sweeping floors, flipping burgers, leaning on a shovel, shuffling papers, or omigod, driving a bus)you are certifiable for a rubber lined room. I care about skill, (which the FRA RR's and airlines long ago proved can be honed on a simulator.) seriousness about the job, and attention to the here and now. As to petty "clique" behavior on the job site, this is a large part of why I choose to work for the a__hole in my mirror every morning.
Yeah Z, I know. To tell you the truth, a lot of the negativity I encountered was going around before they arrived. Once they started training, they impressed a lot of their trainers and in turn changed peoples perceptions about T/O's from the street. I was widely felt that they wouldn't take the job seriously and would do horrible but that hasn't happened. Some trainers commented that they were better than T/O's hired from within the system as of late. It's like what Selkirk said, they should be judged on their attitude and their operation. The workplace is much less stressful knowing that the people you work with know what they are doing. Yes, hopefully it will pass soon. I guess it is like OPTO at one time. OPTO wasn't directed at anyone person. It was the TA .vs the union, but pretty much everybody hated it including myself. It was thought that who ever willingly picked an OPTO job would be thought of as a pariah or sellout. This passed and now is commonplace. I came up through the ranks like just about everybody else and it doesn't bother me. What would bother me about them or anybody else is if they didn't know what they are doing.
Typo: 4th sentence. "It was widely felt....
I heard you WERE widely felt :o
...are you the Eggman?
Yeah, I didn't like how that came out either. IT WAS A TYPO DAMN IT! :-P
They didn't call me grimace for nothing.
You hit it right on the money with the OPTO statement. All the C/R's would look at the OPTO T/O's and want to pick their eyeballs out. Nowadays, there's nothing to it.
But remember, a lot of people have long memories down here. It's going to take a little longer to forget with the streeters than with the OPTO.
Typo: 4th sentence: It was widely felt....
So, tell me something about this TWU...
Is the Subway a closed shop?
North Dakota is a Right to Work State,
A union may win recognition, but under no circumstance can it compel membership of others.
The Nurses have been trying to unionise at some of the hospitals, but so far without much success.
Elias
North Dakota is a Right to Work State,
A union may win recognition, but under no circumstance can it compel membership of others.
I'd sell my soul for all eternity if New York could be a Right to Work state too. Unfortunately, ain't never gonna happen.
The TA is not a closed shop; it's a union shop. The difference is that you don't have to be in the union to get the job (and, consequently, the union cannot control who is hired); but, once you have the job, you have to either join the union or pay a representation fee in lieu of dues.
Under Civil Service law, ALL "state political subdivisions" are represented that way - all part of the "Taylor Law" which gives employees "union representation" in exchange for HEAVY penalties if they actually strike. A fine sausage only politicos could create. :)
It's been a while since I studied the subject; but, IIRC, prior to the Taylor Law, public employees in NYS were not allowed to have union representation. Not only no strikes. No collective bargaining. The Taylor Law was a victory for organized labor, as far as it went.
Am I missing something here? What public employees are not permitted to have a union?
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Am I missing something here? What public employees are not permitted to have a union?
You're not missing anything... but prior to the Taylor Law there were some restrictions. I won't offer my opinions on the subject since I don't want to start a flame war.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In New York? Today? I'm not sure, but I would guess that the list of those who cannot be organized is pretty small, as it is in private industry. If I had to take a guess, I would say top management and "confidential" assistants.
Of course the transit workers were allowed to have a union. That was guaranteed by a Federal law, the Wagner Labor Relations Act, which I believe dates back to the 1930's.
New York City workers used to be prohibited from striking due to a law known as the Condon-Wadlin Act. When the TWU first went on strike in the late '60's, then TWU President Michael Quill was asked by a reporter during a press conference how the law would affect the strike, and his reply was (roughly): "Mr. Condon can be the motorman, and Mr. Wadlin can be the conductor."
Michael Quill was thrown in jail and fined heavily for violating the law, and consistent with his flamboyant personality, he had a heart attack in jail. He died at age 60, not long after the strike was over.
The National Labor relations Act (authored by Sen. Robert Wagner Sr.) was passed in 1935. While it purported to protect the public from disruption of interstate commerce resulting from labor disputes, it also served to balance the power between labor and management. It guaranteed the rights to collective bargaining and the right to organize. It also provided for the formation of the National Labor Relations Board to insure that both sides lived by the provisions of the act. The act actually survived a Supreme Court case in 1937 (Jones & Laughlin Steel Corporation) However, its primary thrust was directed towards private sector employees. Public employees were not guaranteed protection under the Wagner Act.
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I find that interesting. Why would anyone care if a T/O is "off the street" or not????
What were the "off the street" T/O's supposed to have done before getting the job? Reinvent the wheel.
God, who is any subway employee to complain? Think about it! Take the handle away from some of these guys, and where would they be in this world? These veteran T/O's should count their blessings, because without this job, God knows what half of them would be doing today.
>>>>>>>Then they complain when you're not confident enough to run a train like they do. They seem to think that if you cleaned or fixed tracks, or sold tokens in a booth you're perfectly qualified to operate a train.
Remember a few months ago when I was talking about "paying dues"? You bypassed all of the grief with lower titles to gain the title of Train Operator unlike everybody else. Now you're hearing about it. You can't say that I didn't warn you.
Veteran T/O's should just be happy they are where they are today. In a world of corporate downsizing, and globalization, it's a good paying, fairly secure job, free of many of the outside world worries.
I have to agree with "LuchAAA" on this one, train operators and for that matter all transit employees should not take for granted what they get with a job like the one that they have.
Private industry can be a cruel place to work, unionized or not.
(For the record,I am a union worker and have been for four years and I vehemently support any plan to put more money in my pocket.) Working in private industry means that if you have a problem with people or the work you are performing, there are a hundred other people that will do it faster and for less money than you and every company in the world knows this. I know quite a few city state, and federal employees who complain on a daily basis about how much they hate the job that they do; I invite anyone of these people to work in a lousy job for eight dollars an hour with no medical benifits and a lot of verbal abuse, then tell me about a job you don't want to do. Do you want to know what a train operator would do, nine out of ten would run into the cab of that train slam the door and run there train till it is time to go home with a student, monkey and they would do it with out spitting fire and nails.
Just to clarify I am not saying the job of an transit employee is not an easy one and I am sure the bullsh't quantity that is comprable to any other customer service oriented job, I have a great respect for people that get the job done. I hope to be one of those people very soon.
Well you don't have to put up with the abuse that we have to take from management. ANY little infraction of the rules, & they want to take you "out of service" and also don't hesitate to hand out 30-day suspensions at the drop of a hat.
We don't get any respect from management for the job we do & the abuse we have to put up with from management & the riding public.
Management is even petty about our uniform. I guess they are just looking for more resons to write us up.
We need more management who has come up through the ranks & knows what we go through operating trains.
I know of a few TSS' who were told that they would be written up if they didn't write up more T/O's & C/R's.
The "street" T/O's be warned, as they can fire them while they're on probation for almost anything. If they can't find anything, they'll trump up some bogus charge.
I believe you.
I know that the TA is tougher than it used to be.
For example, my friend is a conductor, and has 8 years on the job. Some passenger filed a complaint for some reason about a conductor on his line(I don't want to say which line).
Based on the time of the incident, my friend got a call at his house last weekend from someone asking if he was the conductor involved in the incident with the passenger.
He always warns me that the TA will use any excuse to fire someone. But with all the mess-ups on the job, it's not hard to find, so he feels somewhat safe.
Listen Zman I'm a off the street T/O and I've been on the road for 3 months now. And I'll tell you this not once have I heard anyone talking about us. Yes I've heard people complaining but they do all their complaining to other T/O's that can't do shit. I've had C/R who have told me on more than a hand full of times that I was better than lots of T/O's that been doing this for years. So like I told you last time some of us have paid our dues in other ways. I myself serve this country well in a few conflicts. So Zman I know you mean well in some of the things you tell these newer T/O's but I've going to tell them all something that is far better than what u been telling them. Listen up Street T/O bust your ass in the TA business and your get the respect from all of us. Don't come out thinking your the shit and that you know everything because you don't, listen to all the T/O and learn because what school car teaches you the book. And trust me when I say that book gets toss when you out here.
The issue here is not with Zman... so there is no point ragging on him. He expressed that their is for better or worse a collective mentality that the new guy has to overcome. You served your country, so did I, so I know that you know that there is in every closed community an undercurrent of sorts against new guy, against the outsider. All he said was to learn to live with it for a while. He never said that it was fair (life isn't fair and that is that), but it is something that the new guy is going to have to live with for a while. It is too bad that the TA changed the way the recruit T/Os but that is a different post.
You'd guys better kiss and make up, or you are going to be in for a bumpy ride.
Elias
"Divide and conquer" by making the soldiers go after ONE ANOTHER has always been an effective method of allowing others to battle each other instead of YOU ... looks like the method is working well if T/O's are going after one another.
And agreed, ZMan was only providing a "be on the lookout warning" ... "a union divided will stay out of management's hair for a while." You can quote me on that.
I understand all your posting, but the plain and simple fact is this I have not had any problems with any T/O or C/R out there. If anything I feel like I'm part of lost of crew rooms. I'm not sure whats going on over at the B div. But for the A everyone simples great for now.
Glad to hear that ... this is as it should be. Bothers me a bit to hear that there's some hard feelings around the rails there. As you've probably read, I came in about 30 years ago in a major transition time and saw a lot of silliness go down and I'd hate to see it happen again to anyone else. The job is hard enough at times without extra nonsense going on and folks need to take care of one another. A crew really needs to watch out for each other. And yeah, I think in the long run, many of the concerns raised won't last very long.
Then again, new guys on the road are probably worried about hearing some of the things we've heard here and the bottom line is that your fellow trainworkers aren't the problem. It's whoever came up with this divisive policy. The motorman position was always a promotional, the seniority was portable (to a degree) and a lot of the oldtimers don't seem to understand that the "new guys" got shafted. It'd be quite wrong to shaft them again. Anyhoo, don't mind me - during my short stint there, I enjoyed the cameraderie of a good number of folks. But there were stinkers too and at the time, everybody had to watch their back instead of the rails. Wasn't good.
Glad to hear you're getting on well ... sure hope everybody else is as well ...
Hi everyone!
I was wondering if any knowledgeable New Yorker's could help me out with a few questions I have about travel in New York, both rail and road.
1) My hotel is on the Upper West Side so my home base subway station will be the 72 IRT station. I've read here on Subtalk before that the 72nd street IRT station is undergoing a massive rehabilatation project. Will there be any disruption of service between 8-23 and 8-30?
2) I will be driving to the city and don't want to spend the $25/day rate with only 1 in/out to park in a lot. Is it hard or easy to find a street spot on the Upper West Side in the 70's and 80's? Are the spots metered or do I need a residential sticker or anything like that? If you want to be really kind, could you give me a tip on where I would most likely find a spot?
3) What is the best route to Jones Beach from the city? The actual beach not the ampitheater.
Thank you very much for reading and I will really appreciate any help at all. I live a few hours from Chicago so if you ever have ANY questions about the CTA, Metra, airports, or a question about Chicago in general, I will be pleased to return the favor.
>>>1) My hotel is on the Upper West Side so my home base subway station will be the 72 IRT station. I've read here on Subtalk before that the 72nd street IRT station is undergoing a massive rehabilatation project. Will there be any disruption of service between 8-23 and 8-30? <<<
click here for advisories about the 2 train.
Enjoy your visit!
Peace,
ANDEE
What is the best route to Jones Beach from the city? The actual beach not the ampitheater.
By public transit? (1)>(2)>(3)>(9) to 34 St-Penn Station. Then MTA-Long Island Rail Road to Freeport and MTA-Long Island Bus Route JB62 to the beach.
By car? Triboro Bridge to Queens then Grand Central Parkway. Becomes Northern State Parkway. Take to Exit 33, then Wantagh State Parkway to the end of the road. Paking field 4 is the most popular.
:-) Andrew
OOPS! HTML code error. Ignore those ">" marks on the subway route numbers.
:-) Andrew
Here's how to get to the Triboro Bridge:
Go north on Amsterdam or Central Park West to 96th Street. Turn right and follow signs to the East Side (basically, go straight, but you'll want to bear left as you enter Central Park). Keep going across 96th Street and turn left onto 3rd Avenue (that's the first block past Lexington). Turn right onto 125th Street and you'll soon be on the bridge. Alternatively, go straight on 96th Street all the way to the East River and turn left onto the northbound FDR Drive; then take the first exit on the left for the Triboro Bridge.
On the return trip, reverse course. You can't go south on 3rd Avenue, but you can use 2nd (if that left turn is permitted -- I'm not sure) or Lex, or you can use the FDR Drive. The entrance to the park is at 97th, not 96th, or you might find it easier to go through at 85th or 79th.
If you want to save the $3.50 toll (each way), you can use the Queensboro Bridge. It probably won't take much longer, if at all, but it doesn't connect directly to any highways so it's somewhat harder to find. Here's how to do it, if you're interested:
Go through Central Park at 65th Street. Keep going straight once outside the park (if traffic is heavy, you can hop down to 64th, which is usually somewhat better). Turn right onto 2nd Avenue. The main entrance to the bridge is between 60th and 59th, but that leads to the lower roadway, and there's a messy construction project at the Queens end of the lower roadway that you'd best avoid. To get to the upper roadway (warning: the upper roadway is closed Queensbound in the morning rush hour), continue straight for one more block and turn left onto 58th Street. Immediately turn left again onto the bridge.
Once over the bridge, follow signs to NY 25. At the end of the complex network of ramps, turn left (still signed for NY 25). Then turn right onto the very first side street (30th Street, I think). Go straight past a few stop signs and turn left after passing under the highway (you can't miss it). Go straight for a few blocks and soon you'll be in midst of the I-278 (Brooklyn-Queens Expressway) - I-495 (Long Island Expressway) interchange. You want I-495 (you may be forced, due to construction, onto its lower level, signed as ALT I-495 -- that's fine). After a few miles, the highway splits (again, due to construction) into local and express -- you need the local lanes. Pretty soon, you'll see signs for the Grand Central Parkway: exit there (exit 22), eastbound. Follow Andrew's directions from there.
Coming home, things are a bit easier. Exit the Grand Central Parkway (exit 10) onto the Long Island Expressway towards the Midtown Tunnel. Don't worry about local vs. express this way. Exit at Greenpoint Avenue, exit 16. Follow signs to the upper or lower roadway of the bridge, your choice. If you took the upper, keep left as you exit the bridge and turn left onto 63rd Street. If you took the lower, bear right, following signs to 60th Street west. In either case, 3rd Avenue will take you to 66th Street, which will carry you back across Central Park. (I'll warn you in advance that traffic can be pretty gruesome on the side streets leading away from the bridge. The only way to avoid it is to go east to 1st Avenue and up 1st to 66th -- which, come to think of it, might not be a bad idea.)
You could also take the Meadowbrook Parkway since it comes before the Wantagh on the Northern State.
"and don't want to spend the $25/day rate with only 1 in/out to park in a lot. Is it hard or easy to find a street spot on the Upper West Side in the 70's and 80's? "
ROFLMAO
If you are unfamiliar with NYC, under no circumstance park on the street. Alternate side of the street parking is always in effect, most streets permit only commercial parking in the day time.
You are best advised to use a parking garage, and to pay the price. It is by far the best value when it comes to worring aobut your car!
For less money you may be able to arrance to park it in an outlying New Jersey (or Pennsylvania) park and ride facility and then take a train or bus to the city.
In East Stroudsburg, (PA) (where my parents live) the Martz Bus company runs a park and ride facility. The R/T fare to NYC from there is only $36.00. I am not sure what the week-long parking fee might be, but parking and bus together has to be less than parking and tolls in NYC.
Elias
Sorry, that Link to Martz Bus doesn't work. I guess I should have checked it before I posted it. It was *supposed* to be www.martzbus.com, but then I couldn't make that work either. I'll let you know if I am able to find it.
Elias
If you like the idea, but think that Pennsylvania is too far away, there is plenty of parking at the Port Imperial ferry terminal on the NJ side of the Hudson. See New York Waterway's web site for more information. You can take a ferry from there to mid-town (where they run free shuttle buses) or to the World Financial Center/WTC area.
Not true. Almost all side streets in residential neighborhoods have free parking at all times, except for a few hours a week when alternate side is in effect. It can take some time to find a space, but generally much less than it would take to drive to New Jersey, park there, and take a train/bus/ferry back to Manhattan (plus the subway up to 72nd).
Parking - on the avenues, everything is metered, often till 10 p.m. On the streets, it's mostly not metered, but alternate-side rules are in effect most days -- as posted on the signs. This means that on alternate sides on different days, you may not park from 8 to 11 or 11 to 2, as posted. (Recently, many streets have seen these no-parking hours reduced to shorter 1-1/2 hour blocks, so read the signs.) This means you can park overnight, but if you're on the "wrong" side of the street for that day, you need to move the car. It is almost impossible to find a spot on the "right" side during those hours, though it may not matter to you if you're driving out to Jones Beach that day!. Please note that on certain streets, the police overlook the common practice of cars double parking along the "right" side during those hours, which blocks in the cars parked legally. It also isn't that easy to find a spot for the overnight. You may have to drive around for an hour looking.
Also, when parking is banned because of alternate side parking, STANDING is still legal, so you can sit for a half-hour in the car (buy a newspaper or magazine) waiting for the parking to become legal.
I used to do that every friday.
Parking rules are almost always Monday and Thursday on one side and Tuesday and Friday on the other. Parking rules are suspended (not in effect) on Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays, not to mention holidays and snow days. Sundays parking is free in metered spaces (and holidays with a "Sunday Rule").
Outlying areas often have parking rules in effect only on two days of the week instead of four, and sometimes one of those days is Wednesday. If the sign includes a black area with stars, it means the regulation applies overnight.
Parking in New York is difficult, but it isn't difficult to understand the parking rules, since it's all on the sign. The only thing that you have to know is what's "suspended" when they say alternate side of the street parking rules are suspended on the radio or morning news.
Parking rules are in effect whenever the signs say they're in effect. Period. (The old alternate side signs that included Wednesday and Saturday have been replaced citywide.) The only exception is that if alternate side is, for some reason, suspended, the parking rules given on signs with the broom across the P do not apply.
Parking rules are not suspended on Wednesdays, Saturdays, or Sundays. One particular class of parking rule -- alternate side -- generally does not apply, but other parking rules are in full force. Some meters do need to be paid on Sundays. Again, read the signs.
Parking rules are not suspended on Wednesdays, Saturdays, or Sundays. One particular class of parking rule -- alternate side -- generally does not apply, but other parking rules are in full force. Some meters do need to be paid on Sundays. Again, read the signs.
Nearly all alternate-side parking locations are Monday/Tuesday and/or Thursday/Friday, making Ash Wednesday the most useless holiday.
You reminded me about the Sunday meters, I forgot where I saw them before.
You reminded me about the Sunday meters, I forgot where I saw them before.
West 57 St, Austin St in Forest Hills, and much of Downtown Flushing, to name a few.
Broadway on the Upper West Side (or at least part of it) has metered parking until 10pm seven days per week.
Some of the more Jewishly inclined shopping areas in Brooklyn have meters in effect Sunday through Friday; Saturday the stores are all closed so there's no need for short-term parking.
One small correction: parking is free on some avenues. Around 72nd, I'd guess that Central Park West, West End Avenue, and Riverside Drive have free parking, while Columbus Avenue, Amsterdam Avenue, and Broadway are surely metered. But it's much easier to cruise the side streets than to cruise the avenues.
Given the dates that you're coming in, free parking shouldn't be too much of a problem. Parking on the upper west side is much easier during the summer. The alternate side street cleaning in that area runs from 11AM to 2PM, so if you arrive at about 1:30 on any weekday afternoon, you'll have your choice of spots (although you'll need to wait in your car until 2:00 before you can leave it legally). If that's too late for you, you can usually find a spot on the street (remember to take a spot on the side which isn't being cleaned that day -- check the signs) until about 9 or 9:30 AM. Try 82nd-85th, between Columbus and Central Park West -- parking is easy, and you've got the subway at 81st and 86th streets. On Saturday and Sunday, you should be able to drive up and have your choice of spots in that neighborhood. (Note that the above parking availability notes come to a screeching halt once summer ends.)
CG
Alternate side is either 8am-11am or 11am-2pm, depending on the street. Around here (88th), 86th-90th is 8am-11pm and 85th and 91st are the first streets in their respective 11am-2pm segments. Read the signs.
Weekdays, service to 72nd Street will likely be normal. Due to ongoing rehabs at both 72nd and 42nd, weekends and nights, one (or more) of the following three service patterns may be in effect: all service express from 72nd to 96th, all service express from 42nd to 72nd, all service express from 72nd to 42nd. Your station will be served in any case, but if you were planning on going to or from a local station (including 59th, which, despite being a transfer point, is a local station), you'll have to go to the next express stop and backtrack on the local. Service advisories for August 23-30 aren't posted yet, but check the Weekly Subway Service Advisories page before you leave. (Don't expect to see anything posted prominently in the stations or on the trains, and announcements vary greatly in quality.)
Others have given varying advice on parking. Here's mine: park on the street. Since you're staying from Thursday to Thursday, you'll only have to move the car on Monday. (Park on the south side when you arrive and that'll last you through Monday morning. Move the car on Monday to the north side and you'll be good until you leave on Thursday.) I live on 88th, and I've spent anywhere from under five minutes (last Thursday) to over two hours (last Monday) searching for a good space. Whatever you do, read the signs carefully. Scan a bit up the block from where you've parked, since sometimes the DOT deviously posts "no parking" signs only past the no parking zone. Also, make sure you're at least fifteen feet from the nearest hydrant -- keep a tape measure in the car if you don't have an accurate sense of distance. Ignore all pavement markings, which are unofficial and have no legal standing -- some are painted by well-meaning but misinformed people who think the hydrant law is, say, twelve feet; others are painted in an attempt to reserve parking. As for school days, assume every weekday is a school day unless you know that that school is not in session.
No residential sticker required. In most realms, including parking, NYC does not discriminate between residents and visitors. (Permit parking systems on public streets are, with a few exceptions, not legal in New York State at all.)
If you don't want to search for parking, or you just can't find anything, the huge parking lot on West End Avenue at 60th Street charges $15 per 24 hours (or, IIRC, $10 per 12 hours), including tax. Credit cards are accepted. The lot runs a free shuttle bus that, last I checked, will take you as far as 70th and Broadway (but no further north or east), or you can take the M57 bus (across West End from the parking lot, going north) to its last stop at 72nd and Broadway. Or walk it: it's about 3/4 of a mile to 72nd and Broadway (walk up West End or Amsterdam).
Others have given directions to Jones Beach; I'll comment in the appropriate place. If you drive to Jones Beach on Monday, park it on the other side when you get back and you've just killed two birds with one stone.
Are you driving in from Chicago? Don't be tempted to use the Lincoln Tunnel into NYC -- that'll get you stuck in midtown traffic. Just stay on I-80 until it merges into I-95 and follow signs to the George Washington Bridge (either level -- the view is better upstairs, of course). I assume you don't have E-ZPass, so the toll will be $6. Once over the bridge, take the very first exit and follow signs to the Henry Hudson Parkway (NY 9A) south (if that's backed up badly, Riverside Drive is a good alternate). Exit at 79th Street. And remember, no turns on red in NYC (all five boroughs) unless otherwise posted.
Jones Beach ...
I would suggest the Meadowbrook vs. Wantagh Parkway (former is a little more West then latter). You can get either from Grand Central, but neither from Long Island Expressway. Also could take Cross Island off GCP then keep going East on Southern State Parkway.
Return trip suggestion: As you exit Jones Beach take "Loop Parkway", nice ride over the bays. You'll end up in Long Beach. Stay on the main road until you pass Long Beach Boad. There's a movie theather at that intersection. Now take the first left turn, find a place to park a take a stroll on the boardwalk. To get back to Manhattan return to where the Loop dropped you in Long Beach & take it back to Meadowbrook.
72nd Street is convient to Yankee & Shea stadiums, Coney Island, South Ferry, Times Sq., Central Park, etc. Some may require transfers all can be free if you check the subway map first. Enjoy
Mr t__:^)
You can access them from the LIE, they have those ramps from the LIE to the Northern State just west of Old Westbury, and right before the Meadowbrook exit.
The ramps are only from the eastbound LIE to eastbound Northern, and from the Westbound Northern to the Westbound LIE.
The Northern State becomes the Grand Central Parkway in Queens. The GCP ends at the Triborough Bridge, the Long Island Expressway at the Midtown Tunnel.
What is the best route to Jones Beach from the city?
The best route to Jones Beach is the route not taken.
I say skip it altogether and go to Coney Island instead.
First of all, NYC's Coney Island is a lot easier to get to than Long Island's Jones Beach. You would start from the 72nd St. IND station (not the IRT station). Take the B to Rockefeller Center, and transfer to the F. That's it. Unlike going to Jones Beach, there would be no need to worry about (a) the parkways through Queens and Long Island, or, (b) paying the usurious LIRR fare of $18.
On top of that, Coney Island is much nicer to be at than Jones Beach, by a wide margain. Coney Island is a real "beach town". There are plenty of great eats a short walk from the beach, both on and around the boardwalk. There you've got the ambience, the smell of sausage-and-peppers in the air. Additionally, the Aquarium is right on the boardwalk, and there is a nice grass park across the street. And, of course, there are the amusements and rides.
Jones Beach, on the other hand, is nothing but a sterile beach factory. You drive way the heck out to the Island, just in order to park and then walk way the heck over to the beach. Then, while you are on the beach, if you get hungry or have to use the bathroom, it is another long haul across vast stretches of sand to reach where you need to go.
So, do yourself a favor and eschew that Moses-built Wrong Island monstrosity for a real NYC beach. You will enjoy it more, and spend less money. (And, the money that you do spend will stay here in our City, which is good for all of us.)
Ferdinand Cesarano
Or, if he really wants to see a Moses built monstrosity, go to Orchard Beach in the Bronx.
Peace,
ANDEE
This may come as a shock to everyone who thinks that the city is al that matters, but Jones Beach has a lot of meaning to many of us. I grew up with Jones Beach. I find it to be a wonderful place to take a walk, swim, and many other activities.
It is a pain in the ass to get to from the city, though.
:-) Andrew
>>>>>>It is a pain in the ass to get to from the city, though.
Not really. Went there last Wednesday. Took the LIRR to Freeport then the MSBA Bus. Not a bad commute.
LIRR sells a package to Jones Beach as well as some other Long Island Beaches like Long Beach, Sunken Foreset and Robert Moses to name a few.
>>>Jones Beach has a lot of meaning to many of us...<<<
Jones Beach holds many memeories for me also, a boy from the Bronx, so don't take it so personally.
Peace,
ANDEE
Me three ... remember the roller skating ?
On a summer's eve nice place to park & walk under the highway (lovely path), stroll down the boardwalk (maybe a band will be playing with some old folks dancing), then buy a realy SOFT ice cream on the way out.
But my all time favorite is Rocky Neck in CT. Walk up off the beach and watch the trains go beneath the foot bridge. Saw many a "covered wagon" that way.
Third place goes to Long Beach, the East end & you can get there on a Fun Pass (if you have a lot of time to kill).
Mr t__:^)
And while I was visiting in NYC this July I did Just that and found the beach much nicer than Jones Beach, which when I lived in Merrick was only a 15 minute drive away, and which we did only once a year when our cousins from Ohio came to visit us.
Elias
I couldn't do New Lots today. Just too hot. Tomorrow, 5 train to Bowling Green, 4 train to Utica, 3 to New Lots. Then, 3 to Franklin, Shuttle to Prospect, and the G/O Q running express to Coney Island! West End Line back to Manhattan to pick up two books being held for me. Woo Hoo! I LOVE G/O's in my favor! Brighton Express on a Saturday! Yes!!!!!!
What do you mean too hot? I'd rather be in the subway all day, since most of the cars are very nicely AC'ed.
Hmm. What are you a computer technician of? It seems that you have off. By the way, what are G/O's?
Some Subway Advisories go into affect tomorrow on the weekend, so as not to get lost or confused, check www.mta.nyc.ny.us and click on the left "Service Advisories". I think I caught some on the weekends on the trains that you are going to travel.
Have fun.
Railfan Pete.
I work for City College. Since it's my first job, I only work part-time. Hopefully, I get full time in the fall.
Uhh... but the 5 to Bowling Green and the 4 to Utica
and the 3 to New Lots are all their usual terminals..
Exactly which part of the above passage IS the g/o?
No. The g/o is on the Brighton line. Southbound Qs express from Prospect to Sheepshead. I'm gonna hit the Brighton after New Lots.
G/O's are General Orders, also known as GO's and G.O.'s.
Not to waste a posting, but thanks, it was helpful.
I'm going off line in about twenty minutes for the next week and a half. I'm going to Virginia for the Babe Ruth World Series, and to visit my railfan buddy #1 Brighton Express Bob. We will be touring the Civil War battlefields of the Shenandoah Valley as Yankee sympathizers and hoping we will not be alone. We might even get into Maryland and see Antietam. To keep this topic online, we are also hoping to get into D.C. and ride their Metro.
I'm looking forward to the trip all right, but I always miss it when I have to leave Subtalk for any length of time. Here's hoping I don't miss too much while I'm gone.
We will be touring the Civil War battlefields of the Shenandoah Valley as Yankee sympathizers and hoping we will not be alone.
You won't be... the ghosts of my Confederate ancestors will be there to haunt you :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sure we'll hear about any Brighton-Sea Beach shouting matches if any occur.:-)
Next Stop New York latere this week, any joiners?
If the MTA tore down the 3rd avenue el because it was delapidated and they were strapped for cash,how did they finish the 63 street tunnel?
Speaking of the 63 street tunnel,Which method did the MTA use to build it?
The 3rd Avenue el was torn down for the fact that they were bankrucpt and could not maintain it and it was gonna come back as a subway part of the Second Avenue Subway Line.
The MTA just recently completed the 63 Street connector, they used cut and cover in queens. For the underwater tunnel it was made on land then sunk into the water. The 63 Street connector was supposed be completed in the 80's but due to money constictions only part of it was completed. The rest was complted last year
What about Manhatthan
For manhattan tt was extension type tunneling no cut and cover it looks like, just regular tunneling no special method.
Every method is special and has its own name, even if you don't know what it is. There is no such thing as "regular" tunneling. IIRC, they used the shield method.
IIRC, the 6th Avenue segment of the 63rd St. connector (to CPS) was built via the cut & cover method. I remember a yellow cab actually dropping in once in the 70s.
The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
I read stories of lines losing money such as Myrtle and of course 3rd Ave in full length long before. Did they bring up the fact the whole system lost money as did most rail passenger services?
It wasn't exactly 'losing money' as you clearly point out would be a fallacy; it's the 'Money Pit' syndrome. The lines had VERY high maintainance costs, and relatively low ridership. In the case of the Myrtle, it required cards that were not compatible with the rest of the fleet. Upgrading these lines would have been cost prohibitive, and thus they would 'lose money'.
-Hank
The MTA didn't do it. The MTA didn't exist until 1968.
-Hank
I won't because most of thetrains don't have AC.
yea, but one with the R142s/142As. They are good!!!
They all do, except for the R33 singles. Whether the units all work is another story.
Everyone's been complaining about the A/C not working on the Flushing line. R36 #9661 (paired with #9660) has great A/C! The chances of any SubTalkers riding it? ...
They have finally removed the single-units from the Flushing line, which now is bringing in more topics about "being more crowded" and "hotter temperatures" on the trains.
The thing is, when the Environmental Society of NY/NJ (for the location of the "overboard") and MTA approval (already made) has made their decisions, then we will maybe see the first of the cars hit the ocean as artificial coral reefs.
I'll miss the historical R33-36's. Although rarely they make me feel unpleasant, there's modern, and there's history. Definitely, the car types of the earlier times of the subway (R1's to pre-Redbirds) are in worse condition than the Redbirds, because they are obviously older. The Redbirds have lived their full lifespan. It would be really weird if a generation later, they would still be using them.
Railfan Pete.
i luv redbirds and hell r142 6311 didnt have the a/c working thursday and i still luv the r142s fleet i dont dislike a car because of a/c
Actually i do. I moved from new york 8 years ago and i still think about them all the time . Even when i call my family from puerto rico, i still ask if they are still around because i remember when the r17's came new and in those times, you could look out the window of the first car
""the r17's came new and in those times, you could look out the
window of the first car ""
REMEMBER U CANT DO THAT WITH A R-142 !! .......lol !!
yes you can just not directly at the door.
You do realize that the #170 was asigned to an R9, not an R17, which used numbers 6500-6999.
HELL NO!
The ONLY thing I will miss is a certain sound the trucks make other than that, LET 'EM SINK!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trevor, do you have problems expressing your feelings? Just spit it out, no need to hide anything.
he is very mad isnt he ??
We just went through a heat wave, with temps of 100 F and higher. Riding on the 'birds during such a calamity will make anyone mad.
funny. the air conditioning always works for me on the redbirds. and here's the stephen king explanation: those cars know who's been talking shyte on them here.
I think with temperatures above 100, even the R-62s in the future will have a tough time keeping things cool on the Flushing Line because it's elevated stretches are open to the sun, making a bad problem even worse. The underground stations are hot, but trying to keep an elevated car full of 150-200 or so people cool with the afternoon sun streaming in through the windows during PM rush would tax just about any model of subway car, even the R-142s.
NO!! I would NOT Miss the Redbirds!! I HATE THEM!! Why? b/c every time a Redbird have to switch tracks. The Lights go's out and the A/C go's out. And the Redbirds SOUND Like JUNK!!
At least MTA is getting rid of that Broderline JUNK!!!
The Lights go's out and the A/C go's out.
That's when a Flushing W/F train passes over a third rail gap or a track switch where no 3rd rail power is available. Your argument seemed pretty funny, because some people like the flashing lights chopped to 37V DC battery power on the trains.
Check this site (nycsubway.org) for details on the electrification configuration for the Flushing line cars. I have it printed and studied.
: )
Railfan Pete.
You shure it just the (7) is like that? I do know this also happin on the (6) about a few times with the Redbirds when I rode it.
Yes I'm sure. I haven't been seeing much Redbirds on the #6 lately, but you can give it a flip. Report to me if you have seen it, and note the car #. The reason why the lights flash on the W/F cars is because: (read this thoroughly, quickly, and carefully)
Why do the car lights blink on the World's Fair/Flushing line cars but not the others?
The original carbody lighting design called for the lights to be run directly off the 600V supply (with a polarity reverser relay when fluorescents came along). A relay called ELR (Emergency Lighting Relay) apply 37V battery voltage to a set of emergency, or "battery" lights. On the IRT Redbirds, these are incandescent bulbs located along the center of the car. There are some inside the fluorescent glass fixture, and there is one each in the center of the axiflow fan.
The only cars left in passenger service that still function this way are the Worlds' Fair, aka Flushing, aka Corona R33/36 fleet. When the R26/28/29 fleet was overhauled by MK, the battery lights were removed from the center of the fans and PA speakers replaced them. On these cars, a solid-state converter replaces the older motor-generator set for converting 600V to battery voltage, and the same converter unit also contains a solid state lighting inverter to take the battery voltage, chop it to AC, and step it up to drive the fluorescent bulbs. When 600 goes off in these cars, the lights stay fully on for up to about 30 seconds. In a prolonged power-out, the inverter gradually shuts down banks of lights until only two lights are on in the entire car.
The Flushing line cars were rebuilt in 1985 by Coney Island, before the more thorough car overhaul program was devised. They left a lot of "technology" behind, including the Motor-Generator and the classic SMEE pneumatic units. That's why those are the only cars that still go "puff" when the doors close, and why the lights still blink out across third rail gaps.
And for some extra info.:
Some cars had state or organization dedications/sponsorships for the World's Fair. Thanks to MotormanMarc for the list:
1 ) 9440 - Rhode Island
2 ) 9658 - Neighborhood Youth Corps
3 ) 9744 - state of Missouri
4 ) 9748 - Commonwealth of Massachusetts
5 ) 9762 - State of Vermont
6 ) 9766 - State of Kansas
Be sure to give David Pirmann the credit for all of this info. I learned a lot from it too.
NOTE: If you have trouble reading from your screen, print it for easier reading. It can bug you to read a lot off a lighted computer screen. It may hurt your eyes.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
the 6 until recently ran 9484-9523, which were r36wf cars.
The blinking lights are part of the grand memory.
yeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssss .......!! but what does the TRANSVERSE CAB car club / etc..... know south ferry ???
hold up, back the truck up. all cars in the system including R-142 and R-142A and incoming R-143; the a/c will shut of for a few seconds when leaving the 3rd rail. the lights will shutoff when transfering tracks at a very slow speed will shut some or all the lights including the ac. also some models, the lights flicker when they hit a crack in the 3rd rail. go ride the train and you will see what i mean.
F Yesh.
My quick answer: No.
well install a roof fan like the r-12 !!! lol !! stop bellyaching wait & until the AC fails on the r-142 !! lol !!
When the A/C fails on the R142's I will be long dead
You must be dead already, then. I've already ridden a hot R-142.
HVAC malfunctions -- it's a fact of life. The reason there are so many hot Redbirds is that the TA isn't bothering to maintain them.
"HVAC malfunctions -- it's a fact of life. The reason there are so many hot Redbirds is that the TA isn't bothering to maintain them."
Not true. When it became apparent that most of the "Redbirds" would still be around through the summer, the budget for HVAC repairs for them was increased.
David
Is the TA maintaining HVAC on the Redbirds to the same extent as on other cars? Are the standards -- for taking a malfunctioning car out of service, say -- the same for the Redbirds as for the other cars?
If so, I stand corrected.
As far as I am aware, HVAC standards are the same throughout the subway system, irrespective of car class.
David
So a Redbird with malfunctioning a/c will be taken out of service under the same conditions as an R-142 with malfunctioning a/c? Then I apologize and I withdraw my earlier claim. In that case, why are the Redbirds doing so much worse (with respect to a/c) than only a year or two ago?
I've answered the same question, albeit phrased differently, twice. I'm not going to answer it again. Anyone who has further information on the subject is welcome to continue the thread.
David
I'll take that to be a yes.
In the summer? No. Whenever I wait for a 2 or 4 or 5 or 6 train, I dread the possibility that it might be a redbird. I stay the hell of the 7 on really hot days since redbirds are all you're gonna get.
I think the main thing I'll miss is the variety. The R26, R29, and the two varieties of R33 and R36 each were hardly unique when they were introduced--the carbon steel and basic shaoe of them were pretty much status quo. But today they are unique, the last of this piece of history. For now there are a handful of trains which break the relative monotony of stainless steel and come in bright red, and I'll miss that little bit of variety.
But as cars, for their actual quality as transportation devices? Na na na na. Na na na na. Hey hey hey! Goodbye!
Can't wait 'till we have R62A's on the 7.
:-) Andrew
>>> Na na na na. Na na na na. Hey hey hey! Goodbye! <<<
My thoughts exactly! Finally the 2 train is getting modern stainless steel cars like the rest of the system. It's long overdue!
I'll miss them, because it is the end of an era on the NYC subways.
When they are retired, they will be the last of the non-stainless steel cars in the fleet. (I think it's referred to as LAHT.)
yo, send them babies down to puerto rico. we got hurricanes and other storms here and we are getting this new train here wich by the looks of construction as well as money problems ( SINCE 1991!!!!!!) has still not finished and was supposed to be done by MAY of this year. The trains are coming from Simmens in california. Are they Any good? I spoke to the motorman who came down few months ago and he was the one who gave our governor the first ride as well as some puertoricans and he said that they are bigger then the ones back in my hometown nyc
Here, here! I'll miss them too, severely. They were a constant throughout my life, and even now I still ride redbirds to work.
What Do U Think.
will i miss the redbirds? yes and no. yes: because they are reliable cars that ran for decades leaving many a legacy. they are fun to ride and very fast. plus the lines they run on are attractive. from my experience, the a/c's on the redbirds kick ass! even up to this day. even though some in the fleet don't work to well or don't have any at all, the a/c functioned well.
No: because, they are obsolete machines. they are outdated technology wise,they are unrefined from the suspension up, they are corroding, they don't ride smooth, by them staying they pose a symbol of the nycta being behind the times, they are unsafe to a certain extent, and last but not least, they are old,scream retirement, and i'm tired of seeing old machinery that is not functioning up to todays needs. its time for them to go. they are cool to ride but, they need to go. however the legacy stays.
The a/c and heating was EXCELLENT or in my new language SUPER CABRON
super cabron? un palabra de "slang" utiliso en Puerto Rico? (correct me if i'm right with the grammer but, i will translate because my spanish sucks) is that a slang word in PR?
yes i will miss them wont be any fun coming to nyc anymore & no place to shoot a video anymore !!(:
I will miss them to an extent. They are the last cars to have bulkhead route and destination signs. Will someome please tell those good folks doing the stripping to salvage some of those signs?
It looks as if I will have one final opportunity to ride them this October and greet them with my usual "Hello, Redbirds, hello Redbirds" spiel. It may be a repeat of the last time I ever rode on a prewar D train. When the time came to get off the train, I did so with great reluctance. It will be time to note the car number of the last Redbird I rode on, then give it an affectionate pat on the side.
Thre's no denying it, though. The time has come to say,
Good-bye Redbirds, good-bye Redbirds, good-bye Redbirds, we're going to sink you now.
(To the tune of "Good Night, Ladies" from The Music Man.)
On one hand I'll miss 'em..On the other I'm sad to see them go.
The TA should design another special car for the Flushing line..
I put it down before, I'll put it down again..
The Flushing line is special.
Yes the Flushing line was very special last week and yesterday: Hot cars, signal problems, 12-9. Yes it is very special.
LOL!
So, Mike, you've been on the Flushing lately?
BMTman
It would be even more so if the Mets could score some more runs now and then.
Mixed feelings, I guess. To me, the R-26, 28, 29, Mainline 33 and Mainline 36, epitomize the gritty, working-class IRT. They were actually painted many other colors in their lifetimes: maroon, dark green, jet black, dark brown, white, and of course the seventies' TA-mandated grey with blue stripe.
I always considered the mainline IRT as the 'gritty' division. Through much of the sixties and seventies, Division B was regularly getting new equipment with stainless steel, air-conditioning, faux wood paneling, interior dedicated route maps, cute door chimes and huge illuminated route signs. But the IRT continued running those spartan, boxy cars with square-paned windows, plain block lettered signs and scratched grey bench seats. They may have looked butt ugly compared to the R32 through 46, but they were solid and durable- very no-nonsense.
To this day, I can't really consider the cars on the Flushing line to be true Redbirds, as they began life as special state-of-the-art rolling stock designed for the second World's Fair. Back in 1963 the idea of wide-paned picture windows with small upper slots was very cutting-edge, as was their two-toned blue n' white exterior. The fifteen-year-old R10s were even repainted to approximate their appearance- I always thought it was to let people know the 'A' train went to the ocean.
It wasn't until 1979(?) when the IRT even got A/C, and 1983 when it finally got the stainless-steel R62. (People in the Bronx and other solid IRT territory must have been very confused to hear door chimes on their morning trains, something that had become commonplace on much of Division B.)
A common sentiment existed that Division B lines served 'wealthy' outer-borough neighborhoods such as Forest Hills, Midwood and Park Slope, so the commuters of such would be able to ride the 'fancy' trains. But since the IRT served the working-class, largely minority Bronx, as well as some similar parts of Manhattan and Brooklyn, it would be stuck would the old, crummy late fifties/early sixties equipment.
Of course this was always a fallacy, because all through the 1964-83 period, many of the same lines that ran the swanky, A/C post-R38 cars ALSO ran 1-9s, 10s, 16s and 27/30s, the latter of which were virutally identical to today's Redbirds. In fact, there were even some IRT cars (R26? 28? 29?) that originally had the same pink seats as their Division B contemporaries. I remember someone wondering why a BMT train was stopping at Grand Central.
Likewise, IRT lines also serve some very wealthy areas, and the same trains that ran to the Bronx had to go through the Upper East Side to get there. Likewise, Brooklyn Heights was on the way to Crown Heights and Brownsville. I decline to cite the IRT destinations of Upper West Side and Park Slope as wealthy, because they were pretty much working-class through the eighties.
Nonetheless, through the sixties and seventies Divisions A and B became pigeonholed as the poor and rich divisions respectively because of their rolling stock and (perceived) areas of service. This went out the window with the introduction with R62s on the '4', but didn't stop critics from snorting that they ran for the sheer benefit of the Wall Street Yuppies who lived on the Upper East Side. Completely ignored was the fact that the same line served the West Bronx and the Eastern Parkway corridor- hardly bastions of gentrification back in 1984.
Now that I've blathered, let me say that I'll miss the Redbirds for their very no-frills design, railfan window and straightforward- read FAST- approach to river tunnels and express runs. Of course, their age accents their tendency to shake and rattle more at high speeds, but to many railfans that's part of their allure. I also try to ride one on the '6' as often as possible because that's one line that's consistently remained mixed since 1986 when the 62As came out. Now with the 142As running as well, it's sometimes nice to ride a good-old-fashioned Redbird along upper Lex and the Westchester El. Kind of a reminder of where we came from.
(I keep reading and hearing that the '6' is completely Redbird-free, but every time I ride it, or pass Parkchester by car or bus, I see one still in service.)
Of course, my wife and son have gotten all too accustomed to the newer IRT equipment, and get ticked off when we're waiting for a Lex or 7th Avenue express and a Redbird comes first. I must admit the increasing number of 142s on the '2' do make the 'Birds look shabby.
I will. A lot of the pleaure of a trip to New York comes not only from meeting up and touring with others from Subtalk, pizza at Penn Station, a meal at Jacksons Hole or Nathans, but a trip on the 2 or 7 express. Its the railfan window for me all the way - kids move away. That will soon be lost.
Anyone know if Sbaro at 34th will be re-built?
Simon
Swindon UK
>>>Anyone know if Sbaro at 34th will be re-built? <<<
Why? It hasn't been torn down and I don't think the building that it is in will be torn down anytime soon (unlike its neighbors)
Peace,
ANDEE
I heard that it had closed for some sort of construction - it was "the" railfan restaurant. One slice cheese and tomato, one bowl spaghetti with the sauce that never washes out, bowl of salad (guilt saver), five Redbirds and loads of R62's. A railfan banquet
Simon
Swindon UK
No, it's still open but that window view on to the subway station has been blocked. Don't know if it's permanent or not.
Peace,
ANDEE
Pizza in Penn Station?! No! Pizza in Brooklyn!
Seth
The LAB bridge/Interlocking tower in Albany NY over the Hudson river stuck open yesterday due to heat induced expansion. They were able to get it closed when night fell and it is to remain closed until further notice. No CSX freights were delayed. Amtrak was another story.
No doubt the Lab bridge will be maintained tons better once Amcrash takes over from CP-75 to Albany-Rennsalaer! Bang-up job at Portal bridge a few Thanksgivings ago - way to go, Alison Whattsername.
...are you the Eggman?
The LAB bridge/Interlocking tower in Albany NY over the Hudson river stuck open yesterday due to heat induced expansion. They were able to get it closed when night fell and it is to remain closed until further notice. No CSX freights were delayed. Amtrak was another story.
Is that the Selkirk bridge?
You rang? :)
The bridge in question is the one that crosses the Hudson creek (folks impressed by the Hudson down in the City should find the time to visit Albany and see how narrow it is up here) between the north end of the Rensselaer Amtrak station (that's the "Albany stop" too) and then turns west through downtown Albany (where there is no stop). Selkirk is a whole thruway exit south from there. Just south of Selkirk is the Berkshire spur of the thruway and next to that is the old NY&Boston bridge ("Boston Line") which is a standard high bridge, no "draw" involved.
For those with railroad maps, it's between CP144 and CP145 ...
LAB is also the only interlocking tower left in upstate NY. LAB stands for Livingston Aveanue Bridge. There used to be two draw bridges, one for freight and one for passenger. When the downtown passenger station was abandonned so was the passenger bridge. The new station uses the freight bridge.
Can't say I knew about any second bridge, but I've only lived up here since 1975 so anything's possible. There is a description of the old Albany Union station in the following thread and it suggests that the one bridge was used but isn't definitive:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/nyrail/msg0419375056605.html
I just got word that CDOT will be receiving several Genesis locos in McGinnis colors. The guy said he saw a poster and that they looked pretty sharp. At least something will be sharp because we all know it won't be the acceleration. Seriously people, what is wrong w/ EMD these days?
PS: The expected delivery date is Sept/Oct.
The Genesis loco is made by GE, off its "Dash 8" platform. They don't pick up that well from rest, nor do they look as pretty as a FL9, but they do cruise well over long distances.
SLE currently uses EMD GP-40WH's. I'd settle for some good old F59's.
I'm not a Democrat, so I'm not eligible to vote, but I am in favor of a better shake for those people and priorities that have been losers in New York since at least the Lindsay Administration -- the City's schoolchildren, parks, recreation, culture and TAH DAH transportation investment.
Green is the only candidate who has implied that new transportation investments would be a higher priority than new subsidized housing (for middle income white seniors with connections), new health care spending (for middle income white seniors with connections), and more social service spending "for the poor" but really for the non-profiteers. He has surprised me. He now owes less to the various "winners" than any of the other candidates.
In contrast, Hevesi seems to have sold himself to all those who have a special deal in NY, from big companies with tax breaks, fake non-profits milking Medicaid, the nursing home industry, the teachers' union. What a disappointment! He really is the most knowledgable candidate.
As for Vallone and Ferrer, Lindsay sold out to whites who wanted cash in and flee the city, and the rising social service non-profiteers who formed the core of his political base. He left the City in ruins. Vallone and Ferrer would each do half a Lindsay, and that's too much for even NYC to survive a second time.
I never thought I would say I hope Mark Green is elected Mayor. But he has been saying reasonable and fair minded things (perhaps because he is ahead), while the others are selling out to every special interest in sight (perhaps because they are behind).
Knowing what I do (see my compilation of Census of Governments data at NYU's Taub Urban Research Center website)
http://urban.nyu.edu/research/littlefield/index.html
I'd say Green is the best shot we've got.
As for Bloomberg, I saw a debate with City Council candidates last night. Prospective City Councilmembers would like nothing better than to not make any real decisions, make unreasonable demands, "fight for the people" and blame the "corporate interests" and Republicans for everything. They can't do that with Green as Mayor.
I'm surprised at you, Larry. Green is a luftmensch. You can't run the City on good intentions. I don't see where he has the exprience and especially the heart of a manager.
q.v., John V. Lindsay, and IMO Lindsay had a lot more upstairs.
Green is forming a very wide and, IMHO, shaky coalition if he gets elected -- ranging from people like former Police commissioner William Bratton to the usualy cabal of good-intention goofballs (Celebs to "Pop" Up for Green in today's Daily News) who have enough money to remain above the fray -- i.e. away from public transportation or any other normal public activities and can fly back to their mansions in Los Angeles, should the city return to its early 1990s problems)
Some of the things Green has said I agree with, but by seeking to run with such a wide spectrum of support, the question is can he be enough of a SOB if elected not hold the colation in line and not get rolled by the special interest groups. Bratton may want back in as police chief, but I don't think there's any way he and Green's long-time backers get along for very long. And as far as mass transit improvements go, I suppose he can badger Pataki and support Cuomo or McCall next year saying they'll give the city a better deal, but if he's rolled by all the unions on contracts the way Lindsey was 35 years ago, there's no way there will be enough money for any transit improvements.
Mark Green? That is not wise, I dont like his methods. We need a serious mayor that makes sure that everything keeps getting better and that problems that the city are facing are put down. Crime going down, transit expansion etc. Green is too loose and I would not be happy with him as mayor and as to his priorites. I dont think transportation and crime are not his top issues from what he is, he is just trying to play to the people saying that everything will be equal. He has not talked about any major issues. I look at Bloomberg for Mayor he is a buisness man and knows how to work the tables the economic side of New York City will be happy with Bloomberg as mayor since he will make moves that makes sure the economy gets even higher and also he sees transportation issues as a big thing. I will be happy with him as mayor not Mark Green.
I look at Bloomberg for Mayor he is a buisness man and knows how to work the tables the economic side of New York City will be happy
with Bloomberg as mayor since he will make moves that makes sure the economy gets even higher and also he sees transportation issues as a big thing. I will be happy with him as mayor not Mark Green.
Bloomberg may be successful as a businessman, but that wouldn't necessarily translate into political success. Remember that he's basically the sole owner of his company, so he's not answerable to shareholders - he can do pretty much anything he want, without having to compromise. Yet as Mayor, he'd have to compromise, and would be answerable to others.
Are you sure? This blurb says it's a limited partnership. BTW, did you know that he is Chairman of the Board of Johns Hopkins? That ought to give him plenty of "political" experience.
Are you sure? This blurb says it's a limited partnership. BTW, did you know that he is Chairman of the Board of Johns Hopkins? That ought to give him plenty of "political" experience.
You're right about Bloomberg's company; it's a limited partnership rather than a corporation. Even so, he's clearly the sole boss, either the only general partner or the dominant one.
The bit about being on the board of Johns Hopkins should help, although I suspect that it's a much more genteel atmosphere than anything he'll encounter in NYC politics (which isn't saying much).
I never thought I would say I hope Mark Green is elected Mayor. But he has been saying reasonable and fair minded things (perhaps because he is ahead), while the others are selling out to every special interest in sight (perhaps because they are behind).
Green can talk the talk, but can he walk the walk? Sure, it's easy for him to say now that transit is an important spending priority, but if he's actually in office, would he still think that way? Maybe, but it's a dangerous gamble.
Starting at the Sheepshed Bay station at the Brighton line I plan to take a trip on Monday midday to the Rockaway area, {Euclid, Lefferts, Far Rockaway, Rockaway PK, etc}. I have never been out near this area by subway. I want to go out there to see the stations that when looked at on nycsubway.org look beautfiul. I need a good route to use. I want to start at and end up at the Sheepshed Bay station. I want to see the good areas and try to avoid bad areas. The route could use buses too but if more than half the route is going to focus on buses, send the message via email so as not to disrupt the bulletin board. My goal however, is to experience the subway out there. I hear it is nice in the summer. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Going from Sheepshead Bay to the Rockaways is too roundabout.
You should think about using the Q35 bus, which runs from Flatbush/Nostrand to the Rockaway Park terminal via the Marine Parkway Bridge (very scenic).
NONE of the busses at Sheepshead Bay station connect to the Q35 (damn MTA for not extending the B36), the closest connecting route is the B3 along Avenue U.
Overall for group knowlege, best way I can think of, anyone can correct me if I'm wrong...Q to Prospect Park, S to Franklin, and hop on the A!
Or, Q to Stillwell, F to Jay Street and transfer to the A there, not as bad of an area as Franklin, but Franklin will save you lots of time I think.
"not as bad of an area as Franklin, but Franklin will save you lots of time I think"
The Franklin.... Bad Area???
I don't think so. (Been there Done that.... Got off and walked through the Botanical Gardens and prospect park.... very nice)
I think you are safe on the Subway Trains almost anywhere.
(Unless you fall asleep in a drunken stupor and one friend did one night.... He woke up, had never been on the A train in Queens before, and found himself on a speeding subway train sailing on an ocean with the sea for as far as he could see. He had to look arund again to be sure that he was still on a train. Felt a breeze on his backside, pockets neatly slashed, wallet and money ($600.oo in bar tips) gone. Well if he is still around to laugh about it, it couldn't have been that bad, now could it?)
Elias
Just a small quibble. Franklin is not served by the A anymore. Now that the A runs express in Brooklyn, you have to transfer from the shuttle to the C and then switch to the A at the next (express) stop, which is Nostrand.
After 11 PM it is served by the A train
I stand corrected.
And the Franklin Avenue Station is at Fulton Street, not near the Brooklyn Museum or Botanical Garden.
Utica is a more convenient location to transfer. I doubt that an A train that the C connects to at Nostrand will be gone by Utica because it skips Kingston-Throop.
I also mean when I get into Rockaway, like should I avoid either Lefferts, Far Rockaway, or Rockaway Park. What's the best non-time consuming way of going about this large area.
Far Rockaway:
I took the LIRR to Long Beach, then the N33 to Far Rockaway. At some future time I took the LIRR to Far Rockaway. Either way, I came home by taking the A to Utica or Nostrand, the C to Franklin, the shuttle bus to Prospect Park and the Q to Kings Highway.
Rockaway Park and Lefferts Boulevard:
I took the J to Sutphin, then back to 121, (I had already ridden from Sutphin to Parsons), then the Q10 to Lefferts, the A to Rockaway Blvd, then the A to Broad Channel, the S to Rockaway Park and FINALLY the Q35 to Fillmore Avenue.
Also the Q22 run the length and breadth of the peninsular from Far Rockaway to the southern part of the Marine Parkway Bridge. Then you have to get the Q35 into Brooklyn. Those two routes have been mostly unchanged at least since I went to visit my grandparents as a boy in 1955.
I thought the Q35 was established in 1958.
Avoid ENY/Brownsville and Bed Stuy. Far Rockaway is ugly and the 116th is a little weird at night. The journey is truely picturesque. Enjoy.
Rockaway Park is pretty nice, I'd recommend visiting that part of the Rockaways, it is safer and has a pretty nice town and boardwalk.
Just take the Rock Pk shuttle to the last stop.
So how did the RR's fare in the severe storms we got? We got hit here from 2:30pm to 3pm with torrential rains, lots of lightning bolts and wind. The lights flickered and dimmed several times, but I was lucky. There are alot of power outages in northern Nassau caused by lightning and downed trees. I heard LIRR service is pretty messed up this evening. At the height of the storm 880 reported service on the Port Washington branch was suspended. I can imagine plenty of signal and 3rd rail outages with all that lightning.
Also because of heat there was a power alert in the Flushing area, and voltage reductions in Southern Brooklyn. Wonder how this affected the subways. Well thank God the heat is over and hopefully it won't return till next year.
There were some delays on the Ronkonkoma/Greenport line. I was about 45 minutes late getting to Medford; about half of the delay was attributable to waiting for a connection and Ronkonkoma and the other half was caused by slow running (grade crossing signals out) between Ronkonkoma and Medford.
You're lucky they didn't bus it. If it weren't a summer Friday, they would have.
This morning while trying to get my shuttle back to Queensbridge, I found myself sandwiched between two (2) M trains (one at Queensbridge and one at Lex Ave). Does anyone know what happened to get them so far from home?
There were major switch problems northbound at the Nassau Street Cut. Signal Maintainers had to hand crank trains through the area. I was about 4 behind the entire day, I had only 3 minutes for lunch, and I had a 57 minute late clear.
Let me tell you, it wasn't pretty.
Yow ... never saw that happen in my short career ... that's a lot of hand action for someone who ain't in management. :)
These trains (or at least one of them) went up 6th Av! I saw one at 34th going the other way from my F to Queens. Before, they would usually access 6th via the bridge from DeKalb, but since that is now cut off, it had to have gone through the Chrystie BJ cut. I wish I would be on a reroute like that (either riding OR operating!)
Later on there were problems due to the storm, and there was an R parked in 9th Av. middle, and southbound N's were running over the West End due to reports of a mudslide on the Sea Beach tracks! Many F's were operating express northbound on the Culver.
>>>>>>>>Later on there were problems due to the storm, and there was an R parked in 9th Av. middle, and southbound N's were running over the West End due to reports of a mudslide on the Sea Beach tracks! Many F's were operating express northbound on the Culver.
The latter event (Sea Beach) was caused by a switch problem (switch was stuck while moving) at 59th Street at around 4:45 pm and lasted for quite a while. The mudslide probably happened after the fact.
The two I spotted came up B'way to Queensbridge in service, discharged at Queensbridge and then ran light down 6th Ave to the Christie cut and back to Met.
Still wish that would happen on a job I was working!
WOW!!!! I'D LOVE TO BE ON THE SUBWAY DURING ONE OF THESE CRAZY REROUTES!!! I remember my graduation day... the day of the B train operator on crack in 2000. I was at pacific waiting for an N to CI and i hear the message due to an earlier incident at dekalb ave, there will be no service. There was NO service at pacific whatsoever so i had to take an IRT and transfer to an F to CI and then take an N back to Bay Parkway. Just my luck...
I was operating an uptown R at the same time of the derailment.
When I heard about it on the radio, I said to my C/R who also heard it "Yo. Let's boogie out of here before they kill power". Nothing like working your last run of the night for motivation.
I saw the cabs of the R44s/46s and they have a combined throttle and brake lever. Are all nyc subway cars like that or only the 44/46s? Is it hard operating one of those?
It's just the R44/46 and the R110/142/143 that has the single controller.
As far as operating with the single controller with the R44/46? Well IMO, with the R46's it's really easy. The R46's and the R38's have the best braking trains in the system (I'm not including 110's and up). However with the R44's, it can be quite difficult at first to make an exact station stop because the brakes grab quite hard when below 5 mph, but you get used to it within a few stops. Some people have extreme difficulties with the single controller, but that's because they're woosies.
Mine is silver Litz wire, with oxygen-free copper a close second.
...are you the Eggman?
I like conductors who are generous, are kind, and do not YELL OVER THE P/A. I especially liked the conductor on the A line (the same trip from ENY to NYP). Boy, he was a natural. He had the tones, the speed, the sound, the doors, everything.
I also noticed a conductor long ago on the Brooklyn bound #2 train (I got off at Bergen St., where trains DID NOT stop at Clark St because of construction) he was definitely a natural. He blends in a fresh amount of satire (positive) and was very good all the way through. His announcements were tireless, marking "Step all the way into the cars, Stand clear of the CLOSING doors." (accents on the caps) His voice was that of a young to a 30-40 year old man, and his voice was naturally light so that everyone could hear him.
I also noted a NOTEWORTHY conductor onboard a Brooklyn Bridge bound R142A from 68 St. - Hunter College to 51 St. - Lexington Av. It was around 4PM and PM rush, and I liked the CLEARLY AUDIBLE female automated announcements very much. The conductor who announced the transfers and other info., was CLEAR, and possessed GOOD TONE AND SPEED, as to not confuse any commuters. His voice was light also, and was the voice of a 40-50 year old man.
Well, I hope the MTA gets in more conductors like these. Also, I give credit to my parents for taking me in all of the subway trips that I took. Couldn't have experienced them if they hadn't taken me. I'm thankful!
: )
Railfan Pete.
Oh, Pete. You fell for the Eggman's lunacy. He's cracked!
Just kidding.
HAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAH, lmao, I think you fell into the trap, those voices on the R142 and the R142A's are computer generated (well they are saved but they are a computer talking), so no wonder they are so clear! :-)
Hhahahahahahah that's pretty funny, sorry.
Geniuses are most often understood.
Getting tired of the favorite thread, are we? :)
Tired of the thread? Never!
How about Favorite Unidentified Stain on the subway
or Favorite Strange Smell
or Favorite Circuit Breaker? I like the 24 myself.
...are you the Eggman?
Ok, because I always need the laugh.
Nah, too gross except for the last one. But I am sure YOU will think of something.
My Favorite conductor was Leonard Bernstein.
Ditto here, with a nod to Toscanini.:-)
My favortie conductor(s) both worked the F train/ ONe lady was in her late 50 early 60s even, She would give actual tours as the F train went by, she started talking at ditmas avenue about the history of the CUlver and as we progressed she would announce more and more facts, I called them "nostalgia" tours, she also made some humorous comments at stations, for example, at a crowded station wit a lot of dwell time she would say "3 million people ride the NYC Subway every day, the other trains must be empty, cause it looks like I got all of 'em" and things like "AAAAAAAALLL ABoaaaard, culver local, going up Siiixthhhh avenue" it was afun trip. I dont think she is an active C/R anymore
The other conductor is still on the F train, he is some french guy who does announcements in a heavy french accent. kinda funny
Which method for building a tunnel stretching from 125 street/2 avenue to Grand street is faster and cheaper?
-Tunnel boring machine
-Cut and cover
-The conventional way digging
Fastest: Tunnel Boring Maching
Cheepest: Cut and cover
Conventional Tunneling is expensive and slow.
My Second Avenue Line would be doing cut and cover methods except after Grand Street- East Broadway.
Cut and Cover causes the most disruptions so also choosing the tunnel configuration is important too.
With Tunnel Boring Machines there are very little disruptions but you must take into effect the Tunnel Boring Machines size and how many. It is not cheep at all and it can very very expensive. But it is fast.
". It is not cheep at all and it can very very expensive. But it is fast."
But what price can you put on the disruption of neighborhoods?
What about all the other 'junk' that is under city streets: Water mains, gas lines, steam mains, sewer lines, telephone lince, optic fibers, mushroom farms, and other subways? With conventional digging, or with cut and cover you can expose these things one at a time and re route them, but have you ever run a drill bit through a wall only to run into an electric line you didnt know was there? Ouch.
Elias
Well it's a given about those, but the disruption time with T.B.M is shorter and anyways with T.B.M. you can dig deeper and aviod all of that stuff and Second Avenue is quite far from and other Subway Lines.
Well Elias has a point.Every method I put has an effect and benefits.
Conventional digging-Slow,dangerous and expensive.Won't mess up anything above
T.B.M-Expensive to build in quanity.FAST
Cut and cover-Exposes what's under streets.Fast and Cheap.
Has anyone ever thought about NIMBY opposition?
Try the cut and cover method through one of richest tracts of real estate in the world, and you won't be able to dig a foot before you have it's residents showering you with insults and court documents.
This applies even with the TBM method. One still has to convince them that those machines won't undermine the neighborhood. Difficult to do when fear and ignorance reigns supreme.
Even the deep tunnel bore methods will have to have some street disruptions, mainly around where the subway stations are located (as was the case with the DC Metro in the 1970s and 80s). You can be sure there will be NIMBYs who probably will want the stations near their homes or businesses, but won't want to put up with the two to three-year disruption the construction would require.
Fastest: Tunnel Boring Maching
Cheepest: Cut and cover"
Mr. Rivera,
That statement may be true in certain situations, but I must respectfully point out that it is very much false for confined urban applications such as the Second Avenue Subway.
With all the underpinning of existing structures along Second Avenue (the biggest cost), massive utility relocation, and disruption to traffic patterns, digging deep (i.e. using a TBM to create a deep bore tunnel) is cheaper and faster because there's substantially less need for sequencing and phasing to maintain the surface use of Second Avenue.
I also have to keep reminding people that there is a massive sewer that runs underneath Second Avenue to 110th Street, where it makes a right turn to the East. The sewer is so important, it was the only other thing on the Second Avenue Subway elevation diagram put out by the MTA a while back. Sewer mains are some of the hardest and most expensive utilities to relocate because of the need to maintain gravity flow, the inability to take them out of service, the presumably fragile construction in this case, and the environmental impacts associated with wet tapping to bypass. Unless everyone on the East side stops flushing, the use of cut and cover construction is virtually precluded because it simply becomes cost prohibitive.
This is why the MTA has selected the use of TBMs for a good deal of the construction on the Second Avenue line.
As for MrX2001's statement, digging is not a third type of tunnel construction. All tunnels involve digging, its just weather the tunnel is: a) constructed by removing the surface of the Earth and then replacing it (cut and cover, done with the aid of earthmoving equipment), or deep bore (done by little people wearing helmets with lights on them, or by TBM). There are other less common means of macrotunnelling (I think anything greater than 8ft in diameter is a macrotunnel. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong), such as pipe jacking.
I hope this clarifies the issue, and for MrX2001, please do not hesitate to read the planning studies put forth by the MTA located on their web page. A great deal of questions can be answered there.
MATT-2AV
Makes you wonder why they used cut and cover to do the existing 2nd Ave segments.
Probably because it was 70ties, TBM technology wasn't really mature and cost competitive back then.
Arti
If memory serves me correctly, the Second Ave. line was already built in that area. Several segments of the line were built during the late 1960's, and there are segments from 96th St to about 110th St, from about 14th St. to about Houston, and another one further south in lower Manhattan. A man once had to be rescued from almost drowning in the segment in East Harlem, when he tried to retrieve a ring he lost. The current problem is to get the segments all connected so that service can begin - at long last.
Those segments were actually built during the 70s at about the time the city went bankrupt. The contracts already awarded were allowed to be finished, but that was it.
What the hell is the "conventional way" of digging? I bet you don´t have an (intelligent) answer for this.
There are many types of methods that can be used. Each one is used depending on the type of earth it must go through. If 2 Ave were to be built, it´s possible for several methods to be used along the line. Three common types that have been used in subway construction are deep bore, cut and cover and modified cut and cover. The last one Paris used a lot in their construction.
Rob,
For my info, what's "modified" cut and cover? I've heard the term used, but I can't find a good technical description. I may be thinking of it but under a different name,
MATT-2AV
I found Britannica article that explains it, scroll down to the Paris paragraph. It seems to cause less desruption above ground.
Rob,
Thanks for the article. If I understand the method correctly, it would have the benefit of causing less surface disruption to Second Avenue like deep bore tunneling. This is good, because the surface of Second Avenue needs to be maintained as much as possible during construction. However, it would still encounter many of the utility relocation and underpinning problems associated with traditional cut-and-cover technology. As such, it appears to be a more optimal construction technique than traditional cut-and-cover, but still more difficult than deep-bore tunneling, so I'm not sure if it can be used. Thanks,
MATT-2AV
This method seems to be the one used for the 6th Ave dash. I don't know if a boring machine was used or not, but only the vertical shafts intruded on the surface. IIRC one was on 12th st. just off 6th ave.
avid
Cut and cover, if applicable.
A problem with TBM's is that they go fairly deep. New York subways are far too crowded to herd people up and down on elevators. England: yes. New Yrok: NO!
You wouldn't believe the depth of some stations that are served by escalators. On the other hand, the TA has been known to have some problems adapting to this strange technology.
That is going to change. The 63rd St line is very deep, and with the ADA compliance construction going on, more elevators are going into the system for use by the public.
That's entirely true, and it is a major drawback to deep bore tunnelling.
I remember reading that the success of the New York City subway system was due in part to the fact that the station depths were very shallow (cut and cover) enabling a greater number of people to use the facility.
However, with the advent of modern escalator and elevator technology, ADA requirements, and the fact that these stations will be built like the Taj Mahal, I theorize that the station design can overcome a lot of the capacity limitting obstacles traditionally associated with deep bore tunnels. But that's just my optimistic speculation,
MATT-2AV
What 'Fact' says the stations will be built like 'Taj Mahal'?
-Hank
The Americans with Disabilites Act.
Additionaly newer fire and building codes require different construction methods.
In order to make stations and passengers safer from uncivilized sorts of people, more damage resistant materials are used in methods that eliminate hiding places and such.
Look along the interstates. Little "outhouse" types of rest areas are being replaced by big automated places. Heck.... there are no valves on the faucets, or flush handles on the pots, though if the power goes out you mihgt be up $#!ts Creek.
All in all, I would say that this is an improvement in the commonweal of our society.
Elias
I wouldn't read to deeply into my choice of words. Anyone knows it's not even a fact that the Second Avenue Subway will be built at all. It's not a fact that the sun will come up tomorrow. It's just more likely than not. Something can always go wrong, from politics to the apocalypse.
Now, as for station construction, there are two reasons why it is far more likely than not (read: a fact) that these stations will be grandiose in nature.
1) If you do work for the City, you will quickly learn that there is a strong push towards grandiose and artistically significant construction; a far constrast to most of the infrastructure (including subway station) construction of the past. In local consulting, we refer to this as Taj Mahal construction.
2) The architectural renderings on the MTA's site for the proposed station layout only confirm the general trend in City design. Taj Mahal construction is not limited to New York City. Have you ever seen pictures of the Los Angeles red line stations?
MATT-2AV
Well another Moscow style system isn't needed but something nicer than what was built in the 50's and 60's is a must...For that matter the original IND wasn't a work of art either but hope we never see new styling like the crummy l960's platform extensions and/or some new stations.
I've noticed a trend generally toward nice things again..banks,some stores...even shopping malls are in some cases looking better than just concrete boxes.
In looking at the posts for the Roll Signs and checking out the website with the different bullets, etc., I have a question om the Manny B flip.
They made the Brighton D (Orange Circle) the Broadway Q (Yellow Circle).
They made the Brighton Q (Orange Circle) The Broadway Q Diamond (Yellow Diamond).
If the bullets from the website are correct and they are still on the roll signs, why not make the Brighton Q (orange Circle) the Broadway QB (Yellow Circle) - so the people wouldn't be as confused by 2 Q trains?
Actually having an Orange Q and a QB train will be confusing for these reasons
1.People would think The Orange Q runs on the 6th avenue line.
2.It's very easy to be confused by a double lettered line ex:The A,AA.(plus it's cheaper for the MTA)
3.Those Roll signs are long gone.
4.In that case why not make the Lefferts blvd A train the A,The Motts ave A the Ab and the Rockaway park A the Ac.Now is that confusing?
I would have used a completely different letter for what is now t he circle "Q" - perhaps I would have used the "P" or "U" (no pun intended) instead. This double "Q" is a throwback to the old days when both the Brighton services wore #1.
wayne
They could've also used the yellow B & D signs which exist...
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
Why is it that no one says anything about Amtrak? Whenever I post about Amtrak, the board goes quiet. When I post about education credentials and a pointless argument about the shape of electrical wires, that's when the place buzzes...
*sigh*
Amtrak, it's amazing, I must not be here when you post about Amtrak, because when ever my parents are driving and an Amtrak train line is in the area I grab a camera and take photos. If I become someone who has a major hand in the future of transportation I would ask the govenment to federally fund the testing and building of super high speed network for amtrak trains. So that trains can defintly compete with airplains in speed. Track upgrading, signal upgrading, testing and building prototype new engines that can get train to move at 300-350 miles per hour. So that trains from New York to Los Angeles can make it in 10 hours or less. A comfortable and cheep alternative to airplane riding. It's network its huge, but upgrading it or keeping it in shape is most important. Amtrak is loosing the battle against the airplane and federal funded project to get projects on new train engines and more. If that is not done in the near future then Amtrak has a very grim future. Speed is everything these days but even with Acela Amtrak is still lacking in the speed department. Its time the Amtrak breaks the world record in speed and have a high speed network that surpasses the one in Europe.
Whew!! Amtrak is the most complicated system in the world. It's time to get it upgraded to compete with the fast paced world of today.
Amtrak would be a lot quicker, if it did not have to trail behind the hot - shot freights when traveling off the mainlines. And if politics didn't dictate that its trains operate to relativly out of the way destinations.
Here's something I have always wondered. Why doesn't Amtrak operate to Ft. Wayne, Indiana? The last I heard there were signalling problems on the ex-PRR Ft. Wayne line (meaning that the ex-PRR line is dark, so passenger trains can only go at 40mph). Is this true? Ft. Wayne has to be one of the biggest cities in the US without an Amtrak service. Yet it is so close to having one. The ridiculous thing is, the Three Rivers pulls past just north of it, through Auburn, IN. And they still make everyone in Ft. Wayne drive 45 mins north to Waterloo, IN to catch the Lake Shore Limited!
Lexcie
At one time Amtrak did go through there. IIRC, the reason for ending service was that part of the old PRR main some distance east of Ft. Wayne has been severed... my mother-in-law used to board at Ft. Wayne when she lived in Coldwater, Michigan and would come to visit us in North Carolina.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The maximum speed for "dark" (no signal) territory is 59 MPH for passenger and 49 MPH for freight. The 40 MPH restriction refers to rule 556 of NORAC which describes a 40 MPH restriction when the cab signal is no longer operable. A train dispatcher can authorize rule 556, permitting the train to run at 79MPH, governed by fixed signal indication.
As for Amtrak no longer going through Ft. Wayne, I vaguely remember it has something to do with Norfolk Southern downgrading the line.
Michael
Actually in was Conrail who downgraded and would have ripped it up except for briefly leasing it to NS who needed more throughput.
A bit of background is perhaps of use.
A couple of years into the Penn Central bankruptcy, a consulant crunched the numbers s follows, 80% tonnage on 20% trackage. So Conrail was ORIGINALLY formed to prevent that wholesale abandonnment. Then courtesy of Staggers 4R Act, ALL the RR's got a much easier procedure for writing off trackage they were unable to operate sucessfully(note that much of this has been sold off to loosser work rule outfits with a greater dependence on local traffic--the results have been mixed) So, much of the former 7+ RR's that became Conrail are now like much of Detroit--weeds.
In the process, Conrail reversed the major blunders of PC in some areas--notably turning CR into a serious intermodal hotshot route(remember FlexiVan?) as opposed to the classic PRR we' ll deliver when we want andf you'll lke it(NOT) So in that context, junking the former PRR 'main' east of Chicago into Ohio made sense. Of course, that decision came during the era of (can we rip up track as fast as we lose traffic to smarter operators?)--see the quotes from a Conrail CEO speech in a mid 80's Trains magazine.
Then things turned around and now they are actually straing to keep the lines fluid. (NS way smarter than CSX actually mothballed an entire secondary route in Georgia but did not rip it up--Now they are using it again as business has recovered.) So when the Conrail split happened, the old PRR main went to CSX.
Just out of curiosity, what's so special about Fort Wayne? At about 175,000 people, Fort Wayne ranks down around the 100th largest city in the US. There are plenty of cities bigger than that without Amtrak.
From a quick look at some 1998 population figures, it looks like the largest US cities without Amtrak service are Phoenix (1.2 Mill, 7th), San Francisco (750K, 12th) and Columbus, Ohio (670K, 15th).
CG
Pheonix and San Francisco don't count, since they have reasonably close-by railheads. As for Columbus, that's a good case-and-point. I was always under the impression that Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Ft. Wayne are all about the same size -- between 300,000 and 600,000 -- I seem to remember checking this in the back of a Rand-Mcnally Atlas. But the Atlas only lists the population within city limits, so it is possible that my estimates are way off.
Lexcie
I thought Tucson was the closest station to Phoenix -- 115 miles.
Indianapolis has about 750K and Cincinnati 325K. Cincinnati may seem bigger than it is -- it once had more than 500,000 people.
I wouldn't be surprise to hear that Fort Wayne was also much bigger at one time. Most of the cities in that region have seen tremendous decreases in population. St. Louis has lost 60% of it's population since 1950, and is a smaller city today than it was in 1880.
CG
Columbus is the largest city in Ohio. Cincinnati and Cleveland are only bigger when you count "metropolitan areas." Columbus is a much "newer" city too, having been part of the same phenomenon which grew cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, and Jacksonville. It grew by extending itself into formerly rural areas as more and more people moved there. Services like the National Limited passed through there on the way from the east coast to St. Louis on the PRR and into the early Amtrak years. In fact, the 1972-73 Railway Guide shows no Amtrak service to Cleveland. If you take a look at an Amtrak map from that era, you will notice that Amtrak routes sort of "webbed-out" from New York as opposed to Chicago, as they do now. Today, there is a slim hope of Amtrak service CINCINNATI-DAYTON-COLUMBUS-CLEVELAND, called "The 3 C's." I have searched in vain for their website, which another SubTalker posted a while ago. Hopefully, that SubTalker will see this thread.
>>>Columbus is the largest city in Ohio....<<<
Largest in what sense? Population? Area?
Peace,
ANDEE
According to the Census Bureau, for the 1990 census, Ohio's cities ranked thus (Rank; Place; Population; Land Area (sq. miles); Density (avg. popl. per sq. mile):
16 Columbus city, OH; 632,910; 190.9; 3,315
23 Cleveland city, OH; 505,616; 77.0; 6,566
45 Cincinnati city, OH; 364,040; 77.2; 4,716
Another poster earlier suggested that there had been a lot of change since 1990, I don't know about the truth of the matter but I do know that Cleveland boasts 1.5 million in the metro area. Columbus has a developing metro area that also has a sizable population. What really got me was this: Why did they build I-71? The flow between Cincinnati and Columbus didn't seem to justify it, especially when everyone could just go via Dayton.
I'm not sure what you mean. Columbus is the state capital, and it's larger than Dayton. One would presume that there would be a lot of travel between Ohio's 2 largest metro areas and its capital. Additionally, Columbus is "right on the way" from Cincinnati to Cleveland. Cincinnati is in the southwest corner of the state and Cleveland is in the northwest corner. Columbus is smack dab in the middle of the two, as the crow flies. The logical course for I-71 in Ohio is through Columbus. Dayton is almost directly north of Cincinnati and would be somewhat out of the way. It's served by I-70, which is the east-west interstate and intersects I-71 at Columbus. But being a relatively large city, it warrants a diversion of the proposed 3-C's Amtrak service from the straight path between Cincinnati and Cleveland. (More stops, more revenue. Same reason the New York-Washington non-stop Acela Express service died an early death.)
Then there's the I-270 "Outerbelt," (I have never heard anyone in Columbus refer to this belt freeway as anything but "270") which is intened for traffic passing through Columbus to bypass the city traffic. I-70 and I-71 might be considered "local" interstates and the outerbelt the "express." This is actually well designed. Funny thing is, the outerbelt "superhighway" is quickly attracting adjacent development, making it more of a local highway, and not the bypass that was intended.
Then there's the I-270 "Outerbelt," (I have never heard anyone in Columbus refer to this belt freeway as anything but "270") which is intened for traffic passing through Columbus to bypass the city traffic. I-70 and I-71 might be considered "local" interstates and the outerbelt the "express." This is actually well designed. Funny thing is, the outerbelt "superhighway" is quickly attracting adjacent development, making it more of a local highway, and not the bypass that was intended.
And, as a result, the downtown revival of the late 80's and early 90's in Columbus has ended, since the "next-new-things" are all miles from downtown. Take City Center Mall, which was a destination 10 years ago. You could park in a huge adjacent parking garage for $1.00 all day on weekends. It's now suffering, as several new shopping and entertainment destinations have been built on former cornfields along the Outerbelt. Easton Town Center, The Mall at Tuttle Crossing, etc. When I lived there in 1992-93, downtown was actually bustling during the day, every day, including weekends. When I returned there for my wedding in 1999, the place was dead.
"Today, there is a slim hope of Amtrak service CINCINNATI - DAYTON - COLUMBUS - CLEVELAND, called "The 3 C's." I have searched in vain for their website, which another SubTalker posted a while ago."
The official site, with some detail, from the Ohio Rail Development Commission:
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/ohiorail/Current%20Programs.htm
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/ohiorail/Overview.htm
The unofficial site, with LOTS more detail, from Ohio Ass'n of Rail Passengers:
http://www.oarprail.org/3C%20Campaign.htm
Of course they count. You have to drive two hours south of Phoenix to Tucson to catch Amtrak service. And you have to drive across San Francisco Bay to Oakland for Amtrak service. Not really convenient if you're headed to downtown SF.
A new railhead near Pheonix is just opening -- I don't remember the name, but the scheme is in progress.
As for Oakland, I understand that the train was cut-back from Emeryville because it offered better through-routeing. Isn't there a bus link from both Emeryville and Oakland? As for Columbus -- that's different, it's simply not on the map.
"And you have to drive across San Francisco Bay to Oakland for Amtrak service."
The same on the old passenger trains for 100 years before Amtrak. With the exception of San Francisco-Los Angeles trains coming up the Peninsula (the Coast Daylight, IIRC), there have NEVER been intercity passenger trains into San Francisco proper. They've always terminated at Oakland, where you had to catch (at various times in history) a ferry, electric train, or bus across the bay into the City.
>>> Why doesn't Amtrak operate to Ft. Wayne, Indiana? <<<
In the ‘50s when I was going to Purdue University I would catch a train at a flag stop in Maumee, just south of Toledo, Ohio on a train that passed through Ft. Wayne, Lafayette (where I got off), and on to St. Louis. I was told at the time this was a remnant of the famous Wabash Cannonball. I know the equipment which included Pullmans and coaches looked to be from the turn of the century. Here is a contemporary story of its demise in 1971
Tom
even if Amtrak could go from NY to LA in 10 hours, train travel is still more expensive than plane travel most of the time. Amtrak would need a lot of help before it could become competitive with the airlines for the average person.
If airlines were charged for the "maintenance of air" between NY and LA -- you know, cleaning of the air after an aircraft has passed, etc., oh and they should be charged for "right of air" too... then I don't see how airlines could even compete with trains.
"Whew!! Amtrak is the most complicated system in the world."
I've thold you a hundred million thousand times NEVER to exaggerate line that!
: ) Elias
Amtrak is tied ball and chain style to current technology and current right of way. That being the case - Amtrak can be successful in the following areas:
* high speed transit between city pairs no more than 300 miles apart.
* long distance trains where material handling cars can trail behind paying for the service through freight charges.
* luxury and tour trains.
If magnetic levitation gets a foothold, then AMTRAK should be given a shot at running the service.
Track upgrading, signal upgrading, testing and building prototype new engines that can get train to move at 300-350 miles per hour.
The problem is, there are tight speed restrictions around major cities, like Chicago, also, curves and switches may slow down the train.
Also, the MOST IMPORTANT factor you may be forgetting is that AMTRAK routes across the country are being used BY FREIGHT OWNED tracks. THERFORE, the tracks out west and Midwest are NOT ELECTRIFIED.
By the way, AMTRAK passengers have to change between electric and diesel trains operating to/from Penn Station NY to the Chicagoland area.
I believe the catenary wires END around Washington D.C. or Richmond, VA and continue northward to Boston South Station.
Have you ever seen a diesel loco. even accomplish over or close to 100mph?
And of course, the Congress CANNOT issue a millennium project for bullet trains across the country either. This is in a realm of technology far beyond we can even imagine at this time.
Also CATENARY WIRES HAVE a speed limit at which trains can travel on. Try the magnetically powered bullet train which goes around 200-300 mph. I don't know about the available services, but you can find out.
Catenary wires have a speed limit of around 180-200mph. After this point, the wires in the thin, and lightweight wire CANNOT support enoguh electricity for a train to go faster. How fast a train goes is LIMITED by how much electricity can be drawn from a source, and a thin, light, catenary wire will get you to 200mph TOPS and TURBO engines.
Good idea, though, of travelling cross-country.
: )
Keep thinking, folks....
Railfan Pete.
> By the way, AMTRAK passengers have to change between electric
> and diesel trains operating to/from Penn Station NY to the
> Chicagoland area.
> I believe the catenary wires END around Washington D.C. or
> Richmond, VA and continue northward to Boston South Station.
The engines are switched, but the passengers don't have to change trains. These days the engine change is made at Philadelphia for most long-distance Amtrak trains, though the catenary runs through to Washington on the Corridor, and to Harrisburg on the ex-Pennsy Main Line.
> Have you ever seen a diesel loco. even accomplish over or close
> to 100mph?
Sure; E-units of the Forties and Fifties were often geared for 100-MPH-plus operation. I've been on diesel-powered passenger trains which knocked off mile after mile at over 100, even as late as the early Amtrak years. The SCL across southern Florida and the IC in downstate Illinois come to mind. If these speeds are seldom if ever achieved today outside the corridor, it's not the result of any technological limitations of diesels. Rather, it's due in large part to the physical downgrading of many freight mains, including in particular the removal of cab signal installations. Under FRA regulations, passenger trains are limited to 79 MPH in non-cab-signal territory.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The problem is, there are tight speed restrictions around major cities, like Chicago, also, curves and switches may slow down the train.
So, it's time to build a Chicago by-pass. Not for passenger use, but for freight use -- the freight boys need it, trust me. They have built ring roads like I-275 around Toledo, why not ring rails? Once you take all the through-freight off Chicago's belt railroads, you're going to have room to rationalize the track to help passenger trains (and terminating freights) go-faster.
Also, the MOST IMPORTANT factor you may be forgetting is that AMTRAK routes across the country are being used BY FREIGHT OWNED tracks. THERFORE, the tracks out west and Midwest are NOT ELECTRIFIED.
Milwaukee Road? The only reason Midwest tracks aren't electrified is because diesel is not expensive enough.
Have you ever seen a diesel loco. even accomplish over or close to 100mph?
I regularly travel on a 125mph diesel, it's called the Intercity 125. The prototype of that train had been tested at 143mph. Amtrak's TurboTrain that has been rebuilt by Super Steel Schenectady is rated for 125mph and been tested at that. TGV Turbo also achieves 125mph in operation. Virgin SuperVoyagers (diesel powered, with a distributed electric transmission) will achieve 140mph with full tilt operation.
And of course, the Congress CANNOT issue a millennium project for bullet trains across the country either. This is in a realm of technology far beyond we can even imagine at this time.
Actually, they can. But why should they? Where is the payback?
Also CATENARY WIRES HAVE a speed limit at which trains can travel on. Try the magnetically powered bullet train which goes around 200-300 mph. I don't know about the available services, but you can find out.
Traditional European-style catenary (constant tension) will easily allow 200mph operation. As for > 200mph, it's not clear at the moment what sort of power transmission would be best.
How fast a train goes is LIMITED by how much electricity can be drawn from a source
Not so necessarily. The limiting factor is usually a mechanical one at high speeds: maintenance becomes prohibitively expensive for kit running at more than about 200mph. Conventional French trains with pantograph pickup have been tested up to 320mph, but in order to set that record they have had to seal all the gaps between carriages, and remove carriages from a trainset to reduce weight.
LOL... Sorry I missed your postings. I'll promise I'll respond to the next one if you post one.. and if I know the correct response to it.
Until next time...
Railfan Pete.
Schmaybe because Amtrak puts us all to 'sleep'?
i rode the southwest chief last year to nyc to penn station transfer to the south shore limited in chicago..
now i wish i had done it on greyhound instead !! ..lol!! many complaints about amtrak NO HEAT ON THIER TRAINS
in the winter / fall time give me a #@##$%^%&**%E@..almost a flu,- break man we FROZE all the way to chicago !!
bbrrrrrrrrrrrrr...........!!!!!!
Next time, try the Three Rivers. It's the inland route out of Chi-town, and gets you to NYC through better scenery.
If this LA guy doesn't want to be DELAYED, then the Three Rivers is a bad train to recommend... we all know about the Three Rivers ontime record. A lot of that is due to CSX dispatching on the ex-B&O Mainline west of Canton, OH.
dont worry it will be some time befor i do any trips on amtrak again !! the whole experence left a lot ot be desired
I found greyhound to be better !! lol !!!
... if you like small, smelly seats and sticky floors!
You forgot the "bus perfume" in the back that lingers on your bod for a week after the ride. :)
same complaint on airplanes a 4 hour ride from lax to jfk
amtrak is no better !!
yes it is(ITS LONGER, and more fun)
I ride Greyhound mostly because it serves my area and offers as frequent and on time service as I can expect and the equipment doeswork properly.
OTOH for comfort level assuming all was working right I'd still take the train hands down..but not the way Amtrak runs things. In the days of let's say the New York Central [l963] in my case we were only an hour late into Chicago having been in the aftermath of a blizzard that closed a lot of highways and airports. And the cars were warm.Air cond. worked in the summer. The bad equipment I hear about was supposed to be history once the old castoffs from private owned RR's were gone...but it still goes on?
I can tell you for Greyhound though...after two trips over 500 miles each way from here (livingston MT) to Bismarck ND in the height of season in a month I had enough for a while...the seats are too damned close...corporate America...crowd them in...A full bus was a nightmare.Oh well.
Finally...I'd still rather ride the Lake Shore than the 3 Rivers...the Hudson Valley ride is the nicest entry into NYC.
Next time....................................................
TAKE A VIEWLINER SLEEPER
whew! but man the PRICE you have to pay for a sleeper !! .............lol !!!
Its worth it, - free food, working toilets(AMFLEET 2 's block easily , AMFLEET 1s dont for some reason)beds (the top bunk has neat bed belts)Also privacy, it is worth the price... only on viewliners
sit in the cafe car all night and party all night -- thats the way to travel. why pay for a cabin if you're never going to be in it? i almost never sit in my amfleet seat, and if i do, it's still more comfortable than a greyhound seat.
Because we are basically a bunch of subway people.
Chris - Amtrak has lost the battle to the airplane.
I have never seen ONE complaint about AC on the path subway cars ! ( must be working 100% all the time ) ??...lol!!
......@...Also any LIRR AC complaints ??....hmmmmmm..!!! { only about the redbirds } ...lol!!
Well, The Tubes are a relativly small fleet compared to the capacity at Unionport Yard ;-) And since the PA has been known to suck funds out of NYC Transit revenue, it is little wonder that this little fleet is one of the better maintained in the Tri-State area.
As for the LIRR, well, considering the way things have gone out on the island, A/C would be the least of its problems.
And since the PA has been known to suck funds out of NYC Transit revenue . . .
??????
Oh wait, let me guess, another railfan window car so that's why you like it, also the A/C but the window is a major part of your thinkings...:-)
Whe cant we have both ?? .........works for me !! .......
I do know from what we have seen on the news the east coast has been rocked with record heat !!
Don't know how well the LIRR is doing now but remember reading of commuter rebellions over hot cars some 20 years ago...M1's in that case. An LIRR official was quoted as saying...these are 12 year old cars (!) Yes they didn't make them like they used to...a decade after getting rid of the 40-50 year old "junk" now 12 years is old?
It had reached the point where people were refusing to give tickets.
This has happened before...guess the complaints were heard and action was taken.
The M-1s are so unpredictable HVAC wise, I've actually learned which relays to plug to get the AC to operate (to help the Conductor's out). And if all else fails, I carry a complete supply of the extra-large tie-wraps to keep the end doors open.
The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
The A/C seems to take longer to come back on M-1/3's than most subway cars, after going over a 3rd rail gap.
There is a simple reason for that. The M-1s and M-3s are techno-dinosaurs. They still use a motor-alternator to generate AC for the HVAC instead of inverters. The M-A uses a 700 volt motor to make AC current via na alternator. When a car goes over a gap, naturally, the M-A begins to slow down. When the 3rd rail current is restored, the M-A begins to produce the AC current again. However, to prevent a surge that'll damage the AC equipment, a short delay was built into the AC equipment.
And I hear of this thing called an M-A reset, because sometimes after a gap, the A/C on the LIRR M-1/3's does not come back on. It's happened to me a few times.
I sure hope the M-7's have more advanced technology. Funny how LIRR never bothered to use inverters and are sticking to this old technology. I guess there's some reason for it, since they will be scrapping the M-1's when the M-7's arrive. But the M-3's should get their HVAC setup overhauled.
Since the M-7s will use AC propulsion, they'll be using inverters for the propulsion systems. It would be little problem to use it for the 'hotel' needs.
I haven't experienced the troubles with hot cars on the LIRR that I have in past summers.
The 7 train is another matter entirely....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I haven't experienced the troubles with hot cars on the LIRR that I have in past summers.
Me neither. But there definitely seem to be more "short trains" than usual. Coincidence?
The LIRR has been better of late but 7/25 and 7/26 I rode train 156 from Penn Station - Babylon. Both days my car was hot. On the 25th, virtually the entire train was hot. On the 26th, the C/R was able to reset the HVAC and by Rosedale, the car was almost bearable. However, the C-3s seem to be holding up quite well albiet somewhat too cold.
The "bi-level" coaches seem to have much better A/C than the M-1/3's. Well after all they are much newer!
There are other differences - besides being newer. They are modular - much like the R-142/R-143 system. Whereas the older systems had the compressor/condensor under the carand the evaporator in the ceiling, the C-3s have the entire unit in the ceiling. This is better because you do not need to run refrigerant lines wrom ceiling to floor twice for each unit. This means less chance of 'freon' leaks.
Notice: The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
I guess I'm the only one, but I've experienced plenty of LIRR hot cars over the past two weeks in addition to "two-cars-short" trains.
Ironically, I'm usually the one with the "Quit your complaining" attitude about the LIRR.
CG
The "ticket riots" were lead by none other than Richard Kessel (now head of LIPA) hisself ... amazing how inciters to riot end up becoming leadership. Whatta country! :)
I have never seen ONE complaint about AC on the path subway cars ! ( must be working 100% all the time ) ??...lol!!
The PATH is one of the best lines that have their heat and A/C working all the time. The newer cars (stainless steel PA-3 and PA-4 cars) even have seat warmers! along with the regular heat from the train! Incredible. But I think PATH draws in too much electricity for this, though.
For the A/C, PATH DOES run on battery power when it passes a third rail gap for a split second, OR if it's switching tracks and no 3rd rail power is available.
The lights don't shut off. The fan/ventilator, A/C, and heat go out just like the subway cars, but the thing is PATH rail cars have multiple sectors of climate controlling.
(That's why I hear periodical "clicking" sounds which in between the clicks there is no A/C - heat, and after the last click, the A/C or heat comes back on. (even without passing over a third rail or track switch.) PATH trains REQUIRE its ventilation, A/C and HEAT to be running all the time, and if a PATH's climate system goes out, it will automatically keep "clicking" until the car itself can get its climate control working again.
This is unlike most subway cars (I think R32's do them too) especially the older model Flushing line cars and Redbird types.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
yes it does that why i asked for the information .....thanks !
Well, PA-3 #764 "Borough of Metuchen" didn't have a/c today... so there ya go, a report of a PATH car with no a/c...
-Dave
thats what i do not understand how every redbird without AC gets ""tagged"" as { repulsive & ol' rusty redbird } etc.... lol !!
But when any other transit car & or bus doesnt have it no comment & no complaint ............lol !!!
I remember some LOS ANGELES MTA rail cars with no & 1/2 non working AC !! .........he he he he he ......lol!!!
From the Albany Times Union - your tax dollars at rest again thanks to our anointed "leaders" ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyKey=63633&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/10/2001
Just for laughs and giggles since we're on the thread of the newbies hitting the road to either disdain or cheers ...
How many folks still active did their school car portions at 14th street and used the Canarsie line for practice? Back when I went to conductor training, 14th street was the training facility and once you did all your book learning, fire training and all, then and only then would you get shipped off to Coney for "hands on?"
I understand that it's been since decommissioned, though for a while I'm told it was used as "signal school" ... all that expanse of mezzanine, wonder what they're doing with it now. Then again, the TA used to be upstairs, and even after the state took over the "ta" there were still many offices upstairs.
Anyone still in the system that did school car on 14th St?
It is still there but it is mostly track and signal now. They have switches set up with signals to show different things about them in a safe environment. RTO/DOS goes there only for tower operators now when they get a chance. They have several tower machines. Unless the area has been free as of late the only time RTO/DOS gets to use the facilities have been to have the class come in on a midnight shift. It is busy with other departments during the day.
Glad to hear they didn't wall it off at least ... noisy place it was but it went back a LONG time as school car ground. It was a fascinating place.
A bunch of us horrible, excrementally evil OFF-THE-STREET T/Os went there last week on the daylight shift for about 90 mins of wheel detector instruction. There is a scale mock-up of track there for instruction purposes (about 100' worth).
Funny thing one: We were required to don all our safety equipment before fouling the "track".
Funny thing two: A particularly knuckleheaded classmate was overheard asking if the third rail was live. Maybe there is some merit to all the Open Competitive grumbling...
...are you the Eggman?
Heh. Should have asked your bud to check out the third rail with his "blind op punch stick" ... yeah, now that I know what the real poop is behind the O/C stuff, I also know that everybody's PO'd at the WRONG people. All I can say is keep your head low, wear your jockstrap and while you're charging, check the breaker panel.
That facility at 14th was the "original training grounds" ... somewhere on the bars, there's head-banging marks from my own school car class. Welcome to the road, brother ... you'll find it as exciting as a bowling ball in no time. :)
What has TA done to you my good friend. Ha Ha!
Could your classmate have used his tongue to check the third rail?
The facility is still used as a training center for Signal Maintainers. I took a training class there in June. The switches and signals are still there. Of specific interest are the 5 IND signals hooked to the 60 feet of O gauge track. They use an MTH B&O RDC to demonstrate how the signal system works and track detection functions. It's odd to see a real stop arm come up after an O gauge train passes.
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Heh. If that's the case, we've got a hell of a subtalk field trip there if someone can get us some steenking badges to get in. Doing the subway in Lionel mode should help a lot of folks here understand what's real and what ain't. :)
I had heard that it had been setup as a signal school a good many years ago. They used to have the door sims and cab sims and classrooms there in my days ...
Wonder if they have some of those new MTH subway cars there now.:-)
Heh. If Train Dude worked that department, they'd be R21's for sure.
I suggested the MTH R-42s since they are BMT signals and the real R-42s are down stairs. As of late June, it was one B&O RDC.
BTW: At the RTO training center at Livingston St. they have both 2 car sets of R-42 Add-ons on display.
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I'm impressed that they have anything even remotely resembling "the real thing" given that the media would go bozo over "toy trains" in the facility at all. You know how it is when you work in a "political subdivision" ... but agreed, it would be a nice touch.
There is an R-16 #6452 that may have been used as a school car. R-30s #8424-8425 are still used as training cars if I'm not mistaken.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Yes, it has happened again. One week after a Brooklyn four-year old shot himself with his mother's unsecured & loaded pistol and died, another Brooklyn 4 year now clings to life in Brookdale Hospital. Why? Because his mother was so involved in unpacking her groceries, her son was locked (un-noticed) in her SUV for 30 minutes in near 100 degree heat. Too bad we can't allow profiling of unfit parents.
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Time to take those SUVs out of service, they're a menice and a danger to all of New York's citizens who ride on the highways. They have no safety features to prevent people from getting caught inside the door. How many more people need to get seriously injured before those damned unsafe SUVs are banned from the roads?
This post is intended for the purpose of humor. If stomach discomfort occurs, take with a meal
At last a glimmer of light at the end of the long, dark tunnel.. Perhaps we need to start "Anti-SUV Talk".......
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"He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur. "
Shouldn't that be: gramatical errors?
ie: grammar (noun) the features of a language.. (etc.)
grammatical (adj) of or pertaining to grammar or conforming to standard usage.
Elias
The DISCLAIMER needs a DISCLAIMER? I figured it was self-explanatory.
-Hank
A reasonable person would assume so!
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What's the difference between being locked in a SUV or a compact car; HOT IS HOT and negligent parents are quite the norm. The type of car had no bearing on what happened.
Does anyone else want to answer this one? I can't have all the fun.
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A LOT more glass, which makes it even more of a greenhouse (ie, it heats up a little faster)
Incidently, that 'safety' ain't all its cracked up to be. There was a head-on SUV-SUV accident on the GSP early this morning. 4 dead, fire, very messy. Goes to show that safe is more about how you drive, and less about what.
-Hank
How'd they do that, was one of them wrong railing?
Elias
Yes, after ingesting a couple of quarts of Scotland's finest... or so go the news reports...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
u know why? People are stupid. Look at the one from april 3 or 4 th, The N train conductor did not lock the doors. Of course if you got a kid jumping around the fucking train car and the doors open without notice, he's she's going out the damn train car. Duh! If parents knew dicipline and the workes on the nrq w line get some sense, this would not happen
what the.....?
hah hah. Someone not appreciating the humor. You know, American humoUr is really more subtle than I ever thought it was. And yet there are Americans who don't get it...!!! heh heh heh This is too funny!!!
To her credit, she allegedly told her 12 year old to make sure everything was out of the car.
-Hank
I guess that speaks more to her judgement than I need to. I wonder how many times she left the 12 year old to babysit. Common sense is swirling around the bowl. The redbirds don't need obstruction sensors. They need door matrons at every panel.
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Gonna have to disagree with you there...depending on the child, a twelve-year-old can be quite responsible.
-Hank
When V service starts up this fall, what are the possible car assignments, and where are they going to get the cars from? Supposedly, there is a car shortage, correct?
Even with the G being cut back, you are only going to pick up a few 6 train R46's.
Is R service going to be cut back?
Were the R143's supposed to be in service to free up R40M's and R42's to free up some cars?
Any ideas?
14 V trains will be comprised of R-46 cars (112 Cars).
Thanks.
So does this mean they'll be cutting down F and R service to free up the 112 R46 cars needed for the V?
Nah. The (G) will be giving its R46s up. It will be running R68s. (That's what I heard here, anyway.)
I'm pretty sure that Queens Blvd. is allergic to anything that isn't an R46 or R68, so we can be pretty sure that's all we'll see on the (V).
:-) Andrew
D'OH!!!! I meant that Queens Blvd. is allergic to anything that isn't R46 or R32.
My bad.
:-) Andrew
No, 84 of the cars will come from the G line. The balance will come from re-assignment of the R-32s and reduced spare factors in the Jamaica Fleet. Hopefully, the crunch will be short-lived withthe arrival of the R-143s...
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Is R service going to be cut back?
No. R service will stay normal as it is, running full-time (regular local service except for Service Advisories) from 71 - Continental Avs. to 95th St. Brooklyn during normal hours.
During late nights, the R will remain in regular service cut back to 36 St. Brooklyn, and operating a short distance to 95th St. from there and back. But I don't think that will help much, because the cutback only lasts during late night hours, and the R46's must be retained for rush hour and normal R service on the next/same day.
When V service starts up this fall, what are the possible car assignments, and where are they going to get the cars from? Supposedly, there is a car shortage, correct?
The possible car assignments for the V line (choose as follows): will NOT be of the IRT car-type (pretty obvious), so that eliminates many car-types. The R68's and R46's used on the 6th Av.- line will retain theirs, and the R40 Slants are getting ready to retire (If I'm not mistaken). The best bet might be a mix of equipment from IND and BMT equipment (although these lettered subway routes have different car assignments), which makes it R42's and R46's. (I'm not sure about R68's, R32's or even R38's)
They need to make use of cars readily available. A near shortage might occur, but it really depends on which service will change their cutback, and how many V trains are scheduled to run in one day.
Our best bet is to wait, or contact the Conference Tables of MTA to find out their plans for the opening of the V line late this fall.
By the way, what COLOR will the V line be? Orange? Yellow?
Responses and answers will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
It'll be Orange - because it's running down 6th Avenue.
It already IS orange.
wayne
The R40 slants are not getting ready for reirement. The R143 are all adds to the fleet.
The F is being cut back from 18 to 15 per hour. (The E goes from 12 to 15 per hour - maybe more R32's from CI). The 84 R46's off the G
and the 30 off the F will make up the V.
"the R40 Slants are getting ready to retire (If I'm not mistaken)."
Yes Pete, you are mistake !
As reported many times on this board........The R-143's will replace nothing. They will supplement a "B" divison already short of equipment.
The R-160s will replace the R-38,40,42s and 10 GE overhauled R-32s, unless there is a change in the wind down the road.
Bill "Newkirk"
And, the R38 will be retired before any R40's. They're in worse shape. I can't wait to see them go (evil grin).
"the R40 Slants are getting ready to retire (If I'm not mistaken)."
Yes Pete, you are mistaken !
As reported many times on this board........The R-143's will replace nothing. They will supplement a "B" divison already short of equipment.
The R-160s will replace the R-38,40,42s and 10 GE overhauled R-32s, unless there is a change in the wind down the road.
Bill "Newkirk"
aren't the 143s delayed replacements for the 30s?
I guess you could say that. Too bad they didn't keep the R30s in service longer. The TA just had a way of being short-sighted about these things. Things are gonna be tight on the B Division once the V train goes into service in November.
1.If all of the 6th avenue trains have an Orange color which color will the 6th avenue local be?
2.The only trains that are set to retire are the Redbirds.
>>The possible car assignments for the V line (choose as follows): will NOT be of the IRT car-type (pretty obvious), so that eliminates many car-types. The R68's and R46's used on the 6th Av.- line will retain theirs, and the R40 Slants are getting ready to retire (If I'm not mistaken). The best bet might be a mix of equipment from IND and BMT equipment (although these lettered subway routes have different car assignments), which makes it R42's and R46's. (I'm not sure about R68's, R32's or even R38's)<<
Um, where'd you get this?
Jamaica yard already has over 1,000 cars in it. They aren't going to add anymore, thats 1.
2. The G will no longer be running from Jamaica, but rather from Coney. The cars of the G will not be shifted to Coney though.
3. The F train will be cutback a little because the V adds a lot of new service to it.
From these observations, we come to the following conclusion:
The V will be R-46s.
The G will be R-68s.
For all future persons who ask this question, maps used to say the following:
"Colors are based on the trunk lines in Manhattan Central Buisness District"
That's still in effect today.
Need to throw this in-
The original choice of colors was completely arbitrary.
-Hank
Sorry,,,there WAS/IS reasons why certain colors were chosen: Each trunk lines color was based on what color the main route on each had been on the old maps/system....i.e. The IND 8th Ave was given blue because the A was blue...6th Ave: The D/orange....Broadway BMT:N/yellow; Broadway-7th Ave:2/red...Lex: the 4/green..The Nassau run and Brown you ask? Well, they decided that they wanted Black [as it should have been.....] for the Shuttles, so they [probably abritarily..lol] gave that trunk brown....And the 'oddball' lines [G,L,7]keeping their original colors,although 'softening' the L's original black into an almost Gray...
But the original colors they used on the 1967 map WERE chosen arbitrarily.
-Hank
NO that is wrong, they were chosen to make people confused
Not quite so. The 4's color was purple from 1967-1978, so dark green had to have been chosen arbitrarily for the Lex in 1979 (the nightly Dyre Avenue SS could hardly constitute a main route). Also the 7's color was orange before 1979, so purple had to have been chosen arbitrarily. The G's color was softened too; it was dark green from 67 to 78, but when dark green went to Lex, the G got light green.
Also for the main trunk lines, those had to have been arbitrary. What made the A, D, N, 2 and 4 lines the "main route" one each trunk line? I would think the local trains would be the main routes since they make all the stops on the main trunk lines. These would be the local trains that ran during most hours of the day. In that case the color scheme should have been:
A/AA/CC/E/HH - purple (from AA) or maybe light blue (from E)
B/D/F - purple (from F) or maybe black (from B)
J/K/M - black (from J)
N/QB/RR - dark green (from RR)
1/2/3 - orange (from 1)
4/5/6 - yellow (from 6)
7 - red (softened from orange)
GG - light green (softened from dark green)
LL - gray (softened from black)
SS - Which shuttle would have been the "main shuttle"? Franklin?
So even if the main route from the 1967 color scheme were made the trunk line's color in 1979, there would have been quite a bit of overlapping unless a new color were chosen arbitrarily for some lines. The current color scheme has to be an arbitrary one, just like the 1967 scheme was. But just think what today's subway maps and rollsigns would have looked like if the above color scheme were used.
It seems like they considered the full time [and/or] express was what they considered the flagship routes of the trunk lines.
The Lexington took on green rather than the 4's magenta, probably because that color contrasts better with the red of the 2 and 3 these lines run with in the outer boroughs. I always liked the red/green; blue/orange (which has now been separated north of 145th), and yellow/purple (at QB only). Opposite ends of the color wheel.
I always liked the red/green; blue/orange (which has now been separated north of 145th), and yellow/purple (at QB only). Opposite ends of the color wheel.
Not to be pendantic, BUT...
The complement of red is cyan, sort of an aqua blue-greenish color.
The complement of blue is yellow.
The complement of green is magenta, a purpleish color.
Bluw and orange together is alive and well on both Central Park West and Queens Blvd, and for that matter at W 4th and Jay St stations.
:-) Andrew
That's in the light spectrum. On the color wheel, it's as I said (though the red would be a bit less yellow looking than the primary light red, but much deeper and less bluish than magenta, and the blue would be like a deep cyan. Yellow is the primary and green is yellow + blue, while in light, green is primary and yellow is red + green. (just look on the side of a color newspaper page (like the Daily News Sunday funnies), and you'll see these paint primaries, as colored boxes in a line. On the color wheel, white is like a primary (can't make it with any other colors), but in light, it is the mixture of all the colors.
The resason for this difference is that by mixing light, you're adding light energy, so colors become brighter, but in mixing paints with a color wheel, you're subtracting light, because you are causing more light to be absorbed in the mixture, instead of reflected back to your eyes.
I learned all of this from seeing how colors are mixed on LED displays. I got into this technology because it promised to one day give us full-color digital route signs for trains.
On some maps, the L was almost white.
I don't think so. Outside the Nassau St. line & The Lexington Ave. line, every trunk line's post 1979 color was based on the base service of a route with the 1967 color. That's why 6th Ave is orange (D was orange), Broadway is yellow (N was yellow) and the IRT West Side line is red (the #2 was red). I often wonder, though, why the Lex was made green and the Broadway yellow. No Lexington Ave. route was green, and the only 24/7 Broadway service at the time was the green RR. I would think yellow would be the logical color for the Lex (the #6 was at least this color). Perhaps it clashed with the red color of the other IRT line.
It's quite apparent that the TA should have hired a color consultant before assigning specific colors to specific lines. Now what a about the A division Shop ID colors? Do they need to be re-organized as well. I'd love to see some suggestions for a complete reorganization on the A division colors for the routes and shops. Any takers?
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Maybe the IRT west side can be a deep Teal color, it'll match the IRT east Green lines in Brooklyn and the Bronx. Then, we'd have to coordinate CPW so that it's colors won't clash with the IRT. We can have an all blue CPW and the 6th Ave color should have a paisley pattern for an "at home" feel. The JMZ should go for that split complemtary color pattern, so we'll have an orange M and a dark purple J and a light purple Z. The Broadway lines will all remain yellow to liven up the place, but 8th ave lines will have to be a more subdued color because we still want a "low key, yet fun look" to a subway.
The varois yards and shops will rotate their colors and patterns based on the time of year. Remember, no white after labor day!!
Maybe the TA can hire Christopher Lowell as a consultant.
Christopher Lowell show--- AKa TLC Proudly presents THE NOISY FAGGET SHOW
Uh-Oh. You mispelled "faggot". Watch out for Train Dude English Spelling/Grammar/Syntax Patrol.
Damn, I misspelled "misspelled" as "mispelled" . Oy.
You're gonna catch it NOW, mister. But I'll let ya off with a warning. Watch the closing doors.
Now I know you never said that from your perch on the R-1/9 step plates.:-) I used to listen for that loud clack when the conductor would push down on the trigger caps.
Flux it, I wanna play barbie Patrol, a game of world politics, Bureaucracy, betrail, cold-war tactics, AND DRESS UP
Now with DOMINO DOTS to represent CURRENCY UNITS. Best at 0200 hours Ahem. Betrayal.
goddamnit i knew it was betrayal, you drinking polak
Ja nie pije asz tak duzo, baranie!
i am by no means a lamb
well, it also (rougly) translates into idiot
There are some terms that some people may find offensive. I think you children should worry less about spelling and grammar and start thinking about decency & political correctness... Just a thought!
BACKLASHh *whipping sound* got ya playland
Aww, hell.
This is all in good fun. Its not as if anyone takes us serioulsy, anyway.
I remember seeing it a few times a while back, it's funny as hell to watch.
Hmmm...
He'll use the "Rainbow" Flag colors..
he'th "that" you know? hehehe... ;)
Laugh if yo want, but I like red, green, and purple for the IRT. Yeah, they would clash if they were all together at the same time. But hey, they're all BRIGHT colors. They're what distinguishes the "A" division today--and in a silly way it's part of what attracted me specifically to the IRT when I first rode the subway by myself in the 1980's.
(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(9). I love it!
(PS. No it wasn't the only thing that attracted me to the IRT.)
:-) Andrew
I always though about that. The red 1 sticker went well with the R-62A's on 7th Av. The #2 was green, and the #4 was orange. I though this should have been reversed, so green would be on Lex, and ornge is close to red. The partly correced it when swapping the #2 and 5 equipment, and just leaving he stickers on, swapping the lines sticker colors instead. Blue is closer to green, so perhaps the 6 and 3 should swap. The 7 I noticed was both yellow and black, as the cars did appear on the 5 and 6 back then. It hought of course, it should be purple.
The B div. a few years ago did have a partial color scheme of sticker strips below the # board as well. I know yellow was Coney Island (at least on the 32's on the N) green was the Q (2593-27xx) the D was gray (2500-2592), and there was orange (on some 32's) and blue as well. In not sure what these were.
The B division never used colors to identify yard assignments. The various colors and shapes were to identify various modifications so cars would be compatible. Northern Division and Southern division are completely different cultures. PRETEND MY DISCLAIMER IS HERE
And where do you suppose those 1967 colors came from? They were chosen abitrarily!
-Hank
Me thinks some free love and liberal use of dubious pharmecuticals led to those colors being chosen. It sure was a groovy, far out time.
I remember it well, especially that "Please hold your maxi coats when riding escalator" sign at Woolworth's on 34th St.
I often wonder if ther original 1930's IND maps might have been the origin of at least some of them. The CC was green, and IIRC, the E may have been some sort of blue. The A was red, and the C express was a real pale, almost invisible wintergreen, which makes me wonder if this map (on display in the museum) may have been faded, and that maybe the A was originally blue (which faded off leaving a red that was used to make it a bit purplish)
AFAIK the IND didn't emphasize colors as much as the letter code.
Here's a silly observation:
Does it look like they were going for a "rainbow" effect in Manahattan? Starting at 7th Ave (south of 34th and north of W4th) and heading east, we see red, then orange, then yellow, then green. The problem, of course, is that blue is west of red, and purple is perpendicular to the other lines, and...ah never mind!
Notice how the eastern division has the ugliest colors?
;-D Andrew
When the current colors were created in 1979, most of the main express trains kept their colors.
The 6th Avenue line became orange because the D was already orange
The 8th Avenue became blue from the A
Broadway from the N
7th Avenue from the 2
The GG was already light-green, the L was already gray, but the 7 was orange.
I guess that the Lexington Avenue line got green because the other IRT line was red, the shuttles became black because that's a non-color and I don't know where the colors for the 7 and J/M come from.
I guess that the 7 got violet and the J/M got brown because the 7 is more important and it should get it's own color of the rainbow, whereas brown is not a color of the rainbow and it should go to the forgotten stepchild.
Now, apart from creating colors so that two routes on the same line have the same color, who came up with the original colors? A computer?
"Does it look like they were going for a "rainbow" effect in Manahattan? "
Not so silly as it sounds. The colors were actually deemed important under the Dinkins administration. He viewed is as a sort of subliminal reinforcement of the Rainbow Coalition and the "grand mosaic".
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>>The possible car assignments for the V line (choose as follows): will NOT be of the IRT car-type (pretty obvious), so that eliminates many car-types. The R68's and R46's used on the 6th Av.- line will retain theirs, and the R40 Slants are getting ready to retire (If I'm not mistaken). The best bet might be a mix of equipment from IND and BMT equipment (although these lettered subway routes have different car assignments), which makes it R42's and R46's. (I'm not sure about R68's, R32's or even R38's)<<
Um, where'd you get this?
Jamaica yard already has over 1,000 cars in it. They aren't going to add anymore, thats 1.
2. The G will no longer be running from Jamaica, but rather from Coney. The cars of the G will not be shifted to Coney though.
3. The F train will be cutback a little because the V adds a lot of new service to it.
From these observations, we come to the following conclusion:
The V will be R-46s.
The G will be R-68s.
>>By the way, what COLOR will the V line be? Orange? Yellow?<<
For all future persons who ask this question, maps used to say the following:
"Colors are based on the trunk lines in Manhattan Central Buisness District"
That's still in effect today.
Whatever the assignment, the fleet will come from Jamaica, so it's either R46 or R32.
Note: The G will still be shopped out of Jamaica, so dont expect to see those R68s on that line.
"Note: The G will still be shopped out of Jamaica, so dont expect to see those R68s on that line."
Not according to the plans I've seen -- and I don't only see the "plans" on Subtalk.
Of course, the car assignment is scheduled to take effect November 11 (with the new Pick), and anything can happen between now and then...
David
Are you saying that the line will be shopped out of CI? I can't see why, if it will be extended to Forest Hills overnights, evenings and weekends.
The current plan is for the G fleet to be shopped at Coney Island, at least on weekdays. Weekends, sufficient R-46s will be available to run the fleet out of Jamaica, and I believe that's the current plan.
Again, however, we have nearly three months to go before the plan is implemented, and it can change (and probably will, more than once) before that time.
David
That would be an operational headache to have the line based out of two yards, I don't see the advantage, unless the "V" would require more MUs than avaialbale at Jamaica. Jamaica holds over 1,000 as it is.
"Jamaica holds over 1,000 as it is."
752 R-46s & 292 R-32s = 1,044 Subway cars. Does that sound about right to you? Why would it be beyond the realm of reason for Coney Island to supply the G during the week and Jamaica on the weekends?
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Yes, as I said over 1,000.
It wouldn't be beyond the realm of reason, but the height of operational headaches noting that G's based out of Coney would have to deadhead for some 6 or more miles via the IND and Culver EL from the yard to 4th Avenue tower to start service.
And G's terminating at Ct. Square would have to do likewise.
The prospect park yard beyond Church Av. is supposed to go into service as the storage facility for the G. Track B5 north of 4th av. will probably be used, and maybe also the express tracks from Bergen to Church. (wouldn't have to use the inoperative switches). There is also the layup track near Ct Square. This should be quite enough for the G service. The only deadheading would be to the major yards for inspection, repair, etc.
Remember, when Court Square is a terminal they need use of 5 track in order to get in and out.
I had more in mind nights, when it would be extended.
When the GG ran R-10s, those cars were assigned to Pitkin (BTW: We do not say cars are shoped out of _______.) The fact IS that the V will be assigned to jamaica and the G will be assigned to Coney Island (as of today). Of course Operations Planning may decide before November, to give Jamaica Shop extra cars to supply the G but then the G would not be R-68s. Instead there would be more R-32s on the R line. However, because of limited track space in Jamaica Yard, this is highly unlikely.
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That statement alone tells you how the TA thought of maintenance in those days, assigning cars like the R10 to the GG when these cars were based in a yard which cannot be directly accessed by the line it's assigned to.
Not necessarilly true. When we talk about assignments, we are referring to the shop that performs the scheduled maintenance and larger repairs. At that time, Jamaica Shop had only 4 tracks and was juggling too many contracts of cars. The other 4 tracks were not added until 1991. The R-10s could not be inspected at Jamaica because of space and lack of familiarity. In addition, the R-10s were also used on the A train which was based in Pitkin Yard. That meant that all the R-10s could be maintained in one shop - making it more efficient. However, for day to day service, the R-10s were still staged in jamaica Yard.
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Thanks for clearing that up. So if they wanted to run R46's on the W line, they could do so even though this line doesn't connect to the Jamaica Yard? If so, doesn't that render the N/R and 2/3 terminal swaps in the 1980's pointless?
I think you are taking things a bit too far. If at all possible, it is desirable to have the yard the cars are assigned to, in close proximity to the line they run on. The opposite is not too uncommon. You don't need to look too far to see examples of this today. The Grand St. shuttle - no where near Jamaica is using R-46s. The Queensbridge shuttle is using Coney Island R-32s and the TS-Grand Central Shuttle uses Pelham cars. Before the Manhattan Bridge closing, 15 D trains layed up in Coney Island every night while 6 layed up in Concourse yard. It would not be a hardship to use, for example, R-46s on the N or W and transfer them back to jamaica through the 11th St. cut.
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The TS-GC shuttle uses Livonia Cars. They havent used Pelham cars for a couple of years now.
You could just explore the site. There are several car assignment charts, past, present, and future based on actual FACT of what is likely to occur.
-Hank
Seing that Mr Bill "cigar man" Clinton has moved in on 125th, will this affect any of the neighborhood, will the system be updated in the area. No doubt that it's surroundings will improve with the influx of money new tennents, businesses, so on so forth.
Hi subtalkers,
I'm visiting NY this week (Aug 13-16) and would like to ride in the unmodified redbirds that I've heard about. Are they currently in service and how do I find one?
Of course I'll be trying out the new bridge service; any other must-see things I should look for?
Thanks,
Bill
The R-33 sinlge-unit cars in service on the #7 (9306-9345) are not used in the summer months because they don't have A/C. #7 trains run with 10 cars instead of the usual 11 in July and August.
But alas, 9306 is situated at the Transit Museum, so only 9307 through 9345 are in any active service. About a week or two ago, I travelled on the #7 train on a lark and found that they were running 11-car trains with the one R33S/WF as either the third or fifth or seventh or ninth car (depending on how they were arranged and what direction they were travelling).
I ride the 7 twice every work day (during rush hours), and I can tell you I haven't seen an 11-car train in at least two weeks.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I did. On August 3rd, I rode the 7 train to Queens and the 3rd car was the hotter-than-hell single R33. However, the single R33s were banished from passenger service that weekend. And not a moment too soon!
I'm visiting NY this week (Aug 13-16) and would like to ride in the unmodified redbirds that I've heard about. Are they currently in service and how do I find one?
All Flushing line trains should be modified with A/C, but if you go: let's say AM or PM rush hour when many more trains are in use, you may be able to spot on running the rails, although you may have a width of a hair's chance.
Every SubTalker here is complaining about how the #7 line has NO A/C but I don't think there are enough sources to corroborate that.
Also, while on your journey, enjoy the view with the railfan window, and look for these car #'s: These are car #'s for its special states or organization dedications/sponsorships for the World's Fair. Thanks to MotormanMarc for the list:
#9440 - Rhode Island
#9658 - Neighborhood Youth Corps
#9744 - State of Missouri
#9748 - Commonwealth of Massachusetts
#9762 - State of Vermont
#9766 - State of Kansas
Also, #9661 paired with #9660 has good A/C, so if you want to avoid them for some reason, then it's perfectly fine.
Of course I'll be trying out the new bridge service; any other must-see things I should look for?
The northbound side of the Manhattan Bridge is now open, but the southbound side now has construction for the next 3 years. Enjoy the beautiful scenery there! Also for special trains, sights, etc. wait for an expert to respond.
Hope this helps...
Have a great time traveling NYC!
Railfan Pete.
I think we have a problem in terminology here.
The only cars in service in the NYC Transit System that are not EQUIPPED with air conditioning are the single-unit R-33s (9306-9345, of which 9306 is in the Transit Museum and 9321 is retired) on the #7 line. Those cars are currently not being used, although it is expected that they will be used again in the fall.
The rest of the fleet is equipped with air conditioning. However, a smal percentage of these cars have equipment that is not FUNCTIONING properly. Ten of these cars are the R-32s that were rebuilt by General Electric (the reasons have been discussed on this board before); these cars are usually operated only in work train service during the summer. The remainder are random cars on which, for whatever reason, the equipment has malfunctioned -- it works out to 1-3% of the fleet at any given time.
David
>>> The only cars in service in the NYC Transit System that are not EQUIPPED with air conditioning are the single-unit R-33s (9306-9345, of which 9306 is in the Transit Museum and 9321 is retired) on the #7 line. Those cars are currently not being used, although it is expected that they will be used again in the fall. <<<
Awwww, geeeezzzzz! I thought those ovens on wheels were gonna go out of service for the summer for the last time. They should have put R62s or R62As on the 7 several years ago. The R62/62As were singles then! The R36s could have been assigned to a mainline IRT line and the carbon steel ovens could have been sent to rail museums or the scrapheap where they belong!
I rode R-62 Operating Motor 1616 a 4 woodlawn train to woodlawn, At the terminal i noticed that the rear of the front car was signed up as a 7 diamond, and the front a regular 4.
**The northbound side of the Manhattan Bridge is now open, but the southbound side now has construction for the next 3 years.**
Er . . . I was under the distinct impression that the north side of the Manny B. tracks were closed and the south side was what is now running. I.I.N.M., that south side, before re-opening, had been under construction for over a decade!
Let me clear this up...
When you're driving on Manhattan Bridge TOWARDS Brooklyn, the tracks on the left side are now closed. These tracks were formerly used by the B and D trains crossing the Manhattan/Brooklyn border. (One track per direction) The tracks on the right side were NOT operating at that time.
Now it's a switch.
So if I mixed up my compass directions, sorry for the confusion.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Ahh, you confused the New-Yorkah himself! Nooo. Just understand it like this, for years before, the north side of the bridge, which faces the Willy B and points north was open and used by the B and D. Now that has been closed and the south side of the bridge has re-opened, the side that is facing the Brooklyn Bridge and points south.
Easy...
Every SubTalker here is complaining about how the #7 line has NO A/C but I don't think there are enough sources to corroborate that.
The R36s on the (7) have A/C's. That's not my complaint. My complaint is that most of them don't work!
:-) Andrew
Who can tell if they work? The train's too crowded for AC to have much of an effect.
Seth
If this helps, Bill J, the two mated pairs #9604-#9605 (I rode #9605 from 40 St. Queens to 42nd St. Times Square) and the FAN is running. The A/C does not work (defective) on this car.
After I got off, I hopped on board a s/b #1 train to 34 St. Penn Station and the A/C there worked great.
Railfan Pete.
"If this helps, Bill J, the two mated pairs #9604-#9605 (I rode #9605 from 40 St. Queens to 42nd St. Times Square) and the FAN is running. The A/C does not work (defective) on this car."
Advice like this only helps if the person who's being notified is going to ride in the car right after the person who observed the problem. There's a decent chance that by the time the person the message is intended for reads it, the cars have been either pulled off the road for repair or reset by an authorized employee.
David
Well currently they are running 10 car 7 trains minus the R33 single (fan car) but there are plenty of cars running on the 7 W/O air.
The cars without A/C are the R-33WFs. The roster Nos. of these cars are 9306 - 9345. Car #9306 currently is at the Transit Museum in Brooklyn in its original paint scheme. The non A/C car is the third car from the Queens end of the train. They generally do not use the R-33WFs during the summer.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
As most subtalkers have already mentioned, the singles are currently not running during the hot summer season. And the rest have AC installed except there are those that do not work very well. On a hot day, if you see a car packed with passengers while the adjacent car has just a handful of passengers, chances are the car with the lower population has a non-working AC.
I rode in one of those fan-only R33's on the #7-line in mid July, about three weeks ago.
Thanks for all the info about the fan cars.
I wanted to ride one because I thought it would look, and more importantly, sound like the trains I used to ride in the early 70's. Last visit, the AC was so loud it drowned out all the other wonderful sounds, except maybe an especially good screech on a tight curve!
Another quick way to tell, is when you look in the windows of most redbirds, you will see the two thick stanchions (poles) side by side width wise), which are actually the support columns for the AC unit. The non-Ac units will not have this, and only have the regular poles near the doors.
In the winter, look up! If you see a black cirle fan in the roof instead of the normal plasic circle with the gaps around it, you've found one. If one is running in the summer, they're not now, you can tell by the dead bodies sprewn about the train from heat exaustion. Just fooling. You can also go to the TA museum and see an unpainted one in world's fair colors. It's the last train on the West end of the IRT side. Simply beautiful. Unfortunatly, I'm not sure if the museum is undergoing reconstruction yet or not.
Well I'm in New York for three weeks on personal business. As such I hope to meet some local Subtalkers during my stay and do some railfanning after the 20th. Peace!
Eric Dale Smith
Tomorrow's NYTimes Travel section has an article about how in many travel corridors in Europe, high-speed trains are taking market share from planes. For instance, Air France shut down all its Paris-Brussels flights after a high-speed train went into service. On most trains rides of less than 3 hours, the train takes away many passengers from flights of even less than an hour. Several airlines are now trying to support high-speed trains from outlying cities that would run directly to airports to funnel short-haul passengers into their longer flights. The article quotes the director of the Lyons airport saying that on trips to Paris, he always takes the TGV high-speed train.
Enough to make you want to move to Europe.
For instance, Air France shut down all its Paris-Brussels flights after a high-speed train went into service.
Of course, the NY Times has failed to mention how much French government money was poured into this high speed train project. A lot of it would be hidden, too. SNCF is a governmental agency and receives all kind of favours from the government which aren't properly accounted for. For example, instead of getting loans from the private sector where they will pay interest, SNCF can simply allow their budget to overrun and the government will give them "budget deficits" which are equivalent to interest-free loans. Another example: if the rail line passes through a rural region, even if the train doesn't stop and no stations are built there, they can receive European Union funding to improve the line, because the line is within an economically under-developed region in Europe. They of course failed to mention that all the construction jobs this creates are snapped up by established electrification contractors from the cities.
Several airlines are now trying to support high-speed trains from outlying cities that would run directly to airports to funnel short-haul passengers into their longer flights.
That is the way to do things -- for example, Amtrak's BWI Airport Station is one of the greatest things ever happened to the NEC. It should be like that elsewhere on the Amtrak system.
Enough to make you want to move to Europe.
Only because you have no idea how much dirty stuff goes on in this bureaucratic entity called the "European Union"...
European airlines are subsidized as well -- until recently, they were all government owned. Many still are, or the govt. has a significant stake. Everywhere, even in the US, the air system infrastructure is significantly subsidized.
So, I put it to Congress to either axe the subsidy to the airlines, or to subsidize Amtrak. Personally, I would prefer it if Congress simply axed the subsidy to the airlines and the highway system, so that everything may compete on a level playing field. If there weren't subsidies to the airline industry (and the transportation sector being fully de-regulated), I would not be surprised if Amtrak could beat planes too. Besides, why would they need to -- they will simply buy up an airlines and offer through-fares. Now there's something positive -- seamless transportation on Amtrak, where an Amtrak taxi will pick you up on Rural Route 18, drive you to Amtrak Station in Deshler, OH, where you will board an Amtrak train to Chicago O'Hare Transfer, where an Amtrak plane will fly you to Los Angeles, CA, with a connecting Amtrak train at the other end to take you to suburban LA.
If you don't like the service on Amtrak, you could use Burlington Northern Santa Fe transportation instead -- who will also come pick you up in a taxi, but they will drive you to Attica Jct., OH to board their train.
...I would not be surprised if Amtrak could beat planes too. Besides, why would they need to -- they will simply buy up an airlines and offer through-fares...
BAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! That's a good one. Oooooh, boy. Whoa! Heh heh heh. Tee hee hee hee. Ahem...You have to have money, or at least collateral, to buy something. Last time I checked, Amtrak was in the red, folks, and mortgaging Penn Station. Amtrak buying airlines--that's a good one! :O)
I wonder whqt he'd do for the subways? hand out handguns at the turnstyles to pick off them window scratchers? =)
He'd get my vote!
he's apparently seriously running as an independant. i heard it on 88am...
He will get alot of votes.
Will the TWU endorse him?
Does anyone remember the famous Bernie Goetz car #?
One of my long time pen pals in Brooklyn advised me that R22 7657 was the Bernie Goetz car.When I built my set of IRT SMEE's the R22 was 7657 as the monument.
While a lot of people take exception to what he did it was time somebody stood up and said not this time...he'd already been victimized. The city was bad then and too bad more people didn't stand up instead of acting like sheep.If the good people of the wild west didn't take things in their own hands the west never could have been settled.
Yeah. I heard the campaign slogan is something like: "What Bernie Wants, Bernie Goetz". ;-D
(At least that's the version I heard on 102.7 FM -- The Ron and Fez Show)
BMTman
If any of you were planning to bid on the Brighton Beach Reconstruction Map Joe Saitta put up, I see he pulled the auction when no bid was received with a day and a half to go.
Its companion (smae area, slightly west) went for something over $200 IIRC. I wonder if bidders are running out of $$$?
Many of the most interested might be on vacation.
He should have had a starting bid of less than $20. That seems to be the threshhold for interest for a lot of items. The bids usually go higher once someone starts.
per official Station Division Bulletin SD289-01 second addendum
a second shuttle bus starts 8-13-01. Runs from DeKalb to Grand Street. Hours are 6am- 930 pm daily and all weekend from 6am Friday to 6am Monday.
Bus Stops: Flatbush and DeKalb and Chrystie and Grand.
**no route info was given**
What's the point? We now have 4 different alternate routes to substitute for the old B train from Brooklyn to Grand Street --
1. Any train to Canal plus shuttle bus to Grand.
2. Any train to Canal; transfer to J, M, Z to Bowery.
3. M train, Brooklyn to Bowery, all day on weekdays.
4. New shuttle bus from DeKalb to Grand.
Overkill?
Sounds like a pure waste of money. And, besides, through all this mess everyone seemed to assume that the passengers that used Grand St. were going to destinations within a block radius of that station. In reality, of course, they are going to many different locations in the Chinatown area and can use alternates.
We'll see how many actually use it -- and how long it lasts.
Yes, overkill.
Your routes 3 and 4 are mutually exclusive -- the shuttle bus runs only when the M doesn't serve Manhattan. (Actually, the shuttle bus to DeKalb doesn't substitute for the B at all. The W doesn't stop at DeKalb. I really don't see the point: it's slower than the train and it doesn't go where it might be useful.)
But there's a fourth option: walk the eight minutes.
Definitely overkill.
I would like the TA to announce precisely which service improvements, capital projects, whatever have been pushed off or cancelled due to the money spent on totally unnecessary shuttle buses.
Go back and read the first post in the thread -- the DeKalb/Grand bus now will run from 6 am to 9:30 pm daily. This definitely duplicates the M.
It will also run the entire weekend (when the M does not go to brooklyn.) Bus will run from 930pm Friday until Monday(when weekday service resumes.)
they just put up posters in stations. The bus runs from 930PM overnight till 6Am as well as all weekend. Therefore- it runs when the M does not run to Brooklyn.
Oh, you're right. Could that have been a typo? The initial plan was for the bus to run specifically at night, to take the place of the M.
Now the bus seems really pointless. Buses are much slower than subways during the day, and three train services run over the bridge (only two to DeKalb, if that's actually where any of these people are going -- I thought they wanted the West End line, which doesn't stop at DeKalb).
Either some pressure group got the MTA to add this for a small minority of riders working right around Grand and Chrystie or there really is a group of "transfer-phobic" people out there who would rather switch to a bus than try to figure out how to transfer from the N/R/D/Q trains to the M at DeKalb or from the Q/W trains at Canal to the J/M/Z for the ride to Bowery, and the MTA added it because service is warrented (though I'd think anyone too confused to change trains at DeKalb or Grand would be totally baffled by trying to find the shuttle bus above ground at the station)
(1) There are no commercials on Subtalk
(2) If someone says something you don't like on Subtalk, you can shout back
(3) Subtalk offers rapid transit and intercity rail news all day long
(4) If you sleep, you don't miss the action on Subtalk whereas you will miss the action on TV
(5) Subtalk is free, whereas if you wanted stuff on TV that didn't have commercials, it will be pay-per-view.
I thought those were the reasons SubTalk was better than marriage,
Que? I've never been married anyways I'm to young to get married anyway (16) besides alot girls today aren't attracted to subway fanatics tears) So I would not know what you are talking about concerning marrage/ If you had a wife I hope she doesn't read that?
By the way do subway fanatics get married. Like teaching can be a lonely thing?
I can just imagine it
Subway Fan: Hey, I'm going out for a subway ride through the rockaways for a nice breeze:
Subway Fan's Wife: What about the romantic dinner we planned?
Subway Fan: Oops, I spent the money on an old subway station map and sign.
Subway Fan's Wife: WHAT! slaps him in the face You're terrible.
shivers
Sorry for acting childish on the issue, remember us kids got huge imaginations. LOL
I really wish I were married, but then maybe some will claim that I'm too young for it (21). You know something? I think your dialogue could be re-written to give rise to something more positive:
Subway Fan: Hey, I'm going out for a subway ride through the Rockaways for a nice breeze:
Subway Fan's Wife: What about the romantic dinner we planned?
Subway Fan: Don't worry, if you come with me on the Subway ride, we will be in Penn Station in a bit where the Congressional will be waiting. We'll have our dinner on the way to Washington...
It's a pity they got rid of the jointed rail on the NEC, n'est pas? I just love 1950's baggage cars with outward bearing trucks plus jointed rail. Somehow I will need to persuade the girl to ride the Three Rivers with me...
Washington? Congressional? Going to the Rockaways then to Penn Station. You think she would enjoy it eventhough she is not a subway fan? Maybe showering her with kisses along the way....I'm still a novice at understanding love.....so dont scold me for my comments.
heh heh heh
Generation Gap here. The Congressional was Pennsylvania Railroad's premier train that ran from New York City to Washington, D.C. There was the Morning Congressional and the Afternoon Congressional which were hauled by the stylish GG-1's. The dinner service on these trains were second-to-none.
The equivalent today I suppose would be Amtrak's Acela Express. I'm not sure you can still get dinner service on those French-built trainsets. However it is probably possible to take a train out of New York City today which will still provide dinner service -- for example, the Silver Star, or the Crescent? Someone correct me if I am wrong.
I've seen Amtrak Trains but never rid on them. The closest I've came was this year to go to florida but it was too expensive. I know that they still have a dinner car on those trains which is totally cool. (I can imagine a steak while riding on train with a Pina Colada (virgin of course) I'm going to get tickets to........trenton and have a dinner on a train. Wait, I have no money....that sucks
Now if they only had a food car on the New York City subways, then we'll be talking (there goes my imagination again)
Hey, have you heard about Amtrak's NEC flat fare? Well, actually, I just checked, they don't do it anymore. But you can still take an Amtrak train from Providence, RI to Metropark, NJ for just $50. This is probably the longest mileage you could cover on the NEC for the least cost -- for example, Providence, RI to New York, NY is $65. They also have a 30% off promotion on, due to Amtrak's 30th anniversary. So take a look at http://tickets.amtrak.com/ and decide how much you could afford!
Cost, wont be a matter going to those places, parents are the thing. None of them are rail fans or love taking the subways or railroad. So thats another battle altogether.
At 16, I took a day off from school (carrying a letter from the school 'Attendance Teacher' JIC) for a trip to Philly to ride the only street-running PCCs on the east coast that were accessible to me. Got to Philadelphiua and discovered the services were discontinued. My parents didn't believe me when I told them where I had been, but More was kinda suspicious at my 108pm arrival home:
"Where were you?"
(Ambiguously)"The city." (To a Staten Islander, that'd be Manhattan)
(Pause, turn, stare) "WHAT city?" I was dead meat. I told her, explained the 'permission slip', and presented the ticket stubs. She said "You could have picked those up anywhere!" Ah, yes, but not the $7 ticket for the Franklin Institute to visit 60000.
"Don't do that again!" (which I did the following year for a Mets-Phillies game. (I try to get in at least one road game a year. No Philly this year, I used Montreal.)
At 16, a long day trip on your own should be OK, unless your parental units are overly protective.
-Hank
The dining car experience is the major reason I don't take the Three Rivers, although Lexcie keeps making fond references to it (Horse Shoe Curve is a big plus). I'm going to Chicago from Philly via Acela Express and Capitol Limited and coming back via Lake Shore and whatever (no, I'm not paying the fare). I've had very pleasant dining car experiences on the Crescent, Capitol, Cardinal, and Broadway. The food has been good and inexpensive, and I'm on a train.
I'm not making fond references to the Three Rivers -- quite the opposite, in fact. The only reason I take the Three Rivers is because it's the only way to get to Fostoria, OH.
As for the reference to jointed rail and outward bearing trucks, the reason I like it is NOT for a RAILFAN purpose. The only section of jointed rail I had been able to find in Britain that has a sleeper service on it is between Perth and Ladybank Jn. in Scotland...
Lexcie
[scoffing]: virgin Pina Colada . . .
You oughta be ashamed of yourself, boy!
Bring on the Booze! Yee-haw!
"Tell em I want it wall to wall with John Daniels!"
"Don't you mean Jack Daniels?"
"He may be Jack to you son, but when you've known him as long as I have . . . !"
Sorry - I have a wierd sense of humor, what can I say.
Subway Fan's Wife: What about the romantic dinner we planned?
Subway Fan: Don't worry, if you come with me on the Subway ride, we will be in Penn Station in a bit where the Congressional will be waiting. We'll have our dinner on the way to Washington
Funnt you should mention that. The New Haven had a very nice dining service. I took a date once on for dinner on the Merchants, but soon found that the Patriot was a much better idea, since it ran from Penn instead of GCT, so that became my Train of Choice for dates. Left Penn at 6pm for Boston and we could count on buttering rolls and sipping coffee as the skyline of NY swept past.
You took your dates to BOSTON???? Did you marry the first girl?
-Hank
You took your dates to BOSTON???? Did you marry the first girl?
No, New Haven. Then we usually caught a train back to GCT.
And no, I didn't marry any girl who rode with me on those New Haven dinner dates. By the time I met the girl I would later marry, the New Haven was long gone.
I early gave up the idea I would find/date maybe even marry a "railfanette." There are too few and what if railfanning is the ONLY thing you have in common. And imagine bidding for the same map on eBay! What if she's (shudder--dare I say it?) an IND BUFF!!!!
The secret to introducing a girl to your hobby is to not let her think it is your be-all and end-all and to choose rail "experiences" with her carefully.
A dinner date with nice scenery is sort of the romance of the rails. A fantrip is scary. A rail trip with a different emphasis (a tourist train with a picnic at the end) can be great. Crawling through weeds and barbed wire in pursuit of a picture while explaining to her the differences between an R142 and an R142A will not get you a backrub and more later.
Railfan experiences with girls/women that turned out good included the Cable Cars in SF, various rides in Britain, a trip on the California Zephyr and one on the Broadway Limited, in which my wife and I stayed up all night meeting and partying with heartland people.
Bad experiences included a ride on BART (terminally boring--I should have taken her on J-Church instead) and the Chicago L (the South Side was too intimidating--I think Douglas would have been better).
Are there subway groupies?
Only in your dreams.
Hey, cops have female fans. So do firemen.
UPS workers have them too.
I just thought it would make sense if some women hung around a few of the terminals looking for their favorite T/O or C/R.
>>>>>>>>>I just thought it would make sense if some women hung around a few of the terminals looking for their favorite T/O or C/R.
Oh THAT!! Yes. It's one of the unwritten "perks" of the job. Gotta watch yourself though, after all if you take the MTA on the side of the uniform shirt and flip-flop it, it says ATM. As in $$$.
For a second, I thought you were talking about railfan groupies there. HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Heh. At least you didn't give up the REAL secret ... "$20 a ride" ...
I dun get it... :(
Some things are best left unanswered ... this was one of them. :)
I just thought it would make sense if some women hung around a few of the terminals looking for their favorite T/O or C/R.
Actually, come to think of it, this thread has serious implications. I don't know if anyone is going to kill me for mentioning this, but, in engine service on the NEC, you will sometimes see lone females hanging around at desolate station. Beware -- sometimes, they stand there and work out the diagrams just so they could "jump" under a particular engineer. I don't know if the RR management has any specific procedures for dealing with this, but, so I am told, this is something to watch out for, especially at lightly-used stations where the expresses don't stop.
Train guys should have some groupies. I'd like to show some of the more attractive attractive female passengers at Continental what my handle looks like in the parallel position.
This is, when I become a T/O of course. According to Train Dude, I'm just a wannabe.
>>>>>>>I'd like to show some of the more attractive attractive female passengers at Continental what my handle looks like in the parallel position.
You'd probably dump it too soon. Either that or you'd be so scared that you'd be running release.
Yeah, US!
-Hank
I did that...short trips to places that would interest her. Then there was the NYCRRs tour...
-Hank
And that's why you're to be married in 14 days? ;-)
Yep!
-Hank
Crawling through weeds and barbed wire in pursuit of a picture while explaining to her the differences between an R142 and an R142A will not get you a backrub and more later.
Well if you were going to see a Redbird you could climb in through the body pannels and give eachother a "back rub" inside. Bingo, you have turned a railfan outing into an experiance you can both enjoy.
OR, if it's late at nite and you see a woman crying over having missed her last train you can take your stolen conductors key, your homade throttle and brake handle and then give her a special ride home. Then you can give her a ride ;)
Nudge nudge, wink wink.
Oh, I get it.
"Is that a brake handle in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"
This sounds almost scary, but I've almost done #1. I'll go as far as saying that in Glasgow Central (Scotland) there are always EMU cars that layover during the night, and anything is possible when you have a drunken Scotsman going down to the station with a drunken English girl...
I'll go as far as saying that in Glasgow Central (Scotland) there are always EMU cars that layover during the night, and anything is possible when you have a drunken Scotsman going down to the station with a drunken English girl...
Why English? What about a drunken Scottish girl?
My lips are sealed...
The same girl and I, on a drunken trail in the heart of England (Oxfordshire), decided that it would be funny to SPAD (signal passed at danger), so we went down to the train station, walked past the platform starting signal (on the platform of course) which was held at danger, since there are no trains past about 7pm from Henley-on-Thames. That really ought to go down on my service record. The thing was, we didn't hear from the dispatcher. Perhaps walking on concrete platform with rubber soled shoes won't actually actuate the track-circuit on the track.
Anyway, Great Western Zone dispatchers are too zombie to notice SPAD's. (It was a GW Zone dispatcher who failed to radio the Thames Trains driver of the Paddington accident to STOP after he ran a red signal.)
I ought to be every railroader's shame, to be telling stories like this on a webboard...
Lexcie
Actually, you know something? Dating a girl whose grandfather worked for the B&O works quite well. When we were staying in Deshler (OH), she dragged me out to walk along the B&O mainline just so she could pick some berries. She wasn't much interested in the interlocking plant (and to tell you the truth, neither was I), I was just interested in getting some pictures, and she was interested in going out for a walk with me. My camera has this added advantage -- if she wanted any pictures of wildlife (and there were plenty of butterflies and flowers down there by the main), then I could get them too. Granted, girls don't drag you out to walk the B&O main every day, but then, I wouldn't want to walk the B&O main every day, either.
Lexcie
My mother-in-law worked for the Pennsy for years and sometimes liked to talk "shop". She (and my father-in-law) remembered the sound of triple-headed Pennsy steam hauling heavy freight uphill.
>>What if she's (shudder--dare I say it?) an IND BUFF!!!!<<
I RESENT THAT!!!!
On the other hand if the female is a 6 line denizen
While I the 9 line denizen.... it 'adds up' nicely.
..........................6? 9? Hmm. wonder what you're referring to......
exactly... ;)
Did you hear about the tanned MTA track worker who went to the doctor complaining of itching and burning; her tan was interrupted by a white M on her chest. The doctor asked, "How did you get that, from your MTA boyfriend?"
"No, from my girlfriend at Wisconsin Metro..."
You get the idea...
Good one, Ron!!
Rim shot!
An IND buff? Now we're talking!
If you're J train loco guess that makes you a BMT man...BMT, IND, merger [lucky if her names Christy?] MERGER get the picture!! If you're lucky...or do I interpret your post to make you an IND man?
I'm beginning to think too much and don't want to say all I'm thinking so let you take over again. Before I get kicked off Subtalk.
Um, I think it's time for J Trainloco to change his name.
Yes, but do you seriously think that all subway fans are ONLY subway fans, that they don't share any other interests with women?
Besides, if you prefer anything to a romantic dinner with the ball and chain/girlfriend, then what business do you have getting married?
No, no, no. Don't get me wrong (I knew I was going to open a can of worms) I'm just saying childish stuff, I dont understand love or marrage that much and a subway fan who would spend money on subway stuff over a romantic dinner with their wife is nuts. So it was a bad example, and yes subway fans do share other interest with women. Dont kill me, but I have yet to meet another woman my age who I know who has any interest in subways or hockey, or working (I can go on forever with incompatibility)
Selkirk TOM married a railfanette, so they do exist.
My luck sucks then!
No no, railfanettes are rare. Here's a true story: many a times I have thought I met railfanettes when females tell me things like her grandfather worked for the B&O, her grandfather worked for the Santa Fe. It's interesting actually how many girls I've met who are in fact, aware of the fact that their grandfather worked for a railroad. They also seem to be able to tell you stories along the lines of how neat the caboose was, and how their grandmothers loved the holiday they once took on the transcontinentals. The problem, I believe, with railfans today is one of marketing. If there is this potential demand shown by railfanettes, for understanding and caring male railfans who are just like their grandfather, why are they instead marrying jerks in the city who has never travelled on anything other than an auto? I suspect that as railfans we focus too much on engine numbers, route engineering, and system design. We have to go out there and market railfanning -- and this means focusing on neat cabooses (that were operationally useless), focusing on pretty paint, nice flowers in quaint depots, and fancy dinners. All those things lose money operationally, but it's what will give you the attention of the railfanettes whose grandfather worked for the Santa Fe. There are still Harvey Girls out there -- and us the railfans need to keep the Porsche owners out! Look here: who is the swisher guy... the one who owns the $250,000 Lotus, or the one who owns the $2,500,000 AEM-7?
You may have something there. My wife loves riding public transit. Last Sunday's (8/5) "Field Trip" (Can you call it that when nobody else goes?) included an R-38 A train to Far Rockaway, a N 33 bus to Long Beach and return, a Q 113 to Jamaica Center, and a R-40 J back to Manhattan. We had the railfan windows on both long train rides, and she is hooked on it. However, she is never going to remember or care about the more technical details. She wants to take some of the subway lines that we haven't been on, but she wouldn't be able to tell you what they are or where they go. Actually, there is very little left that we haven't done. When we go away for our three day "vacations" we usually ride different tourist lines, but she doesn't remember any details about the equipment.
Look for Peggy...
-Hank :p
Some are. I'm marrying one (T-14Days).
Although she expects to see a weather report prior to any excursion involving poorly-ventilated railcars.
I suggested we repeat the NYCRR tour this year to take place last Thursday, so that it's an accurate repeat. :)
-Hank
There's always something besides infomercials and televangelists on at 5AM local time :)
-Hank
But you're just as screwed if the cable goes out or there's something up with the server.
-Hank
since 1964, the MTA has been using stainless steel to build rapid transit cars. of course they prove reliable and long lasting but, some come out very heavy. why wouldn't the TA convert their next orders to aluminum car bodies? i asked for they are lighter and as riliable and zero corrosion. plus they do prolong the life of rails on the tracks because they are lighter and less abbrasive. but, the TA never buys them. why?
Here's the reason why not:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_467000/467919.stm
I was looking for a picture which clearly shows the class 165 aluminium DMU coach split wide open following an impact with the Intercity 125 High Speed Train... but the above link is the best I came up with. That aluminium coach shattered along the welds, unlike the later Mk.IV coach (steel) which was involved in a different accident -- that one didn't shatter (although it was severely deformed, killing both of the train operators inside).
My understanding is that aluminium coaches are less sturdy than their steel counterparts.
Found the picture:
(from the Ladbroke Grove Enquiry Report)
The aluminium coach is the one whose one-side is danging over the Mk.III steel coach which had kinda ducked beneath it. The crash was a head-on with a combined speed of around 130mph.
Aluminum is used on NJ TRANSIT's Comet IV rail cars and I think Arrow (1,2, and 3) MU cars are steel.
Aluminum may be lighter than metal or stainless steel, but one Comet IV car weighs (trailer only) 104,000 lbs. [52 tons], trailer w/ bathroom weighs 107,000 lbs. [53 1/2 tons] and a Comet IV cab car W/ bathroom weighs 113,000 lbs. [56 1/2 tons]. They still weigh a lot. And also, the Comet IV's designed maximum speed limit is around 77 1/2 mph, and the Arrow III stainless steel can go faster, around 90-100mph (but I doubt 100mph).
Also, MU's can startup faster than locomotive hauled trains. I'm not sure what Pullman-Standard used to build their Comet I cars, but Bombardier took care of the 2's, 3's and 4's. I don't know as of yet who's manufacturing the Comet V's.
And the NEC is not prone to a lot of chances of accidents or collisions. but anything can happen unexpectedly.
: )
Railfan Pete.
And, oddly, the powered M-1s the LIRR has are even lighter than that, and are steel.
It's not just the materials, it's the engineer designing it. I bet the M-1's carbody is pretty darn strong, too. I know it met all AAR, FRA, etc regulations and standards of the time, so theoretically, it's as strong as any other car out there. That's what good engineering gets you, a lightweight, strong design that lasts a while.
There's nothing wrong with Aluminum for railcar manufacture, though stainless has the edge in corrosion resistance. Stainless / carbon steel mixes are bad mojo. AFAIK, nobody uses aluminum / magnesium castings for railcar parts that are cast, and I bet with a good alloy, you could have equal strength with lighter weight. And the magnesium fire issues are moot with most castings (though it *can* be a problem). And nobody's using carbon fiber (though fiberglass is apparently popular...) or titanium (stronger, lighter, and super fatigue resistance, though the thought of a railcar that springs back into shape in an accident is both funny and horrific at the same time...) in designs....yet. Titanium would have been good for the acela - extra strength and light weight. But it's expensive stuff (and awefully interesting to work with too)
Yes, I forgot. Aluminum also BURNS.
So does steel, titanium, magnesium, and a host of other metals.
Nice try, though.
Yeah, but Al burns easier. Al is extremely reactive. It is that reactiveness that keeps it from coroding (there is always a protective layer of Al2O3). In a fire the Al melts and the Al2O3 layer is constantly broken down in many places resulting in the rapid oxidation of large amounts of Al. When something steel burns there is usually a lot left over. When something Al catches fire the metal components can completely burn away and I think they actually contribute to the fire after a certain threshold. Not as bad as Mg tho.
Though aluminum is more reactive than steel and does burn worse, I believe the activation energy necessary to break down the Al2O3 layer as you said is very high, and probably would not be a problem (1500°C maybe)? I can't remember. Steel does burn (technically rusting is burning) but won't give off as much heat since is less reactive. And, the Fe2O3 layer also breaks down in many places at room temperature.
I was doing chem experiments where we were dissolving Al foil w/ some sort of acid (KPO3 or something like that). Well it just sat around for like 20 minutes and then Whoom!. In like 20 seconds all the foil compltely dissloved creating a hell of a lot of heat. I also saw something on PBS where a B-29 caught fire and the mid section completely burned away in just a few minutes.
It might interest you to know that in Florida, many pieces of outdoor hardware are made of stainless steel instead of aluminum because the aliminum corodes in the high humidity. E.g., patio doors.
When something Al catches fire the metal components can completely burn away and I think they actually contribute to the fire after a certain threshold. Not as bad as Mg tho.
Quite true. Back in 1980 I was working in Poughkeepsie, New York, and had stopped for lunch at a Dairy Queen opposite the local Chrysler/Plymouth/AMC dealership, which was located in the main hanger (and only surviving structure) of the former Poughkeepsie Airport, a small airstrip that closed around 1930 because its runway was too small for anything bigger than a biplane (and there was no room at that site to expand). The hanger - a large structure, approximately 120' wide by 400' deep - had a wooden frame, cinderblock walls, and a magnesium roof, and was partitioned into the parts department (who also used the rafters), the service department, and the body shop (the offices and two-car showroom were in a glass-walled addition on one front corner). A spark from welding ignited some paint thinner in the body shop section in the rear, and in less than fifteen minutes the entire structure was destroyed. The heat was so intense that the DQ windows and the windows on my car - parked across the street from the dealership, at least 80' from the closest point of the fire - were shattered. Amazingly, no one was hurt - the heat quickly chased everyone far enough away, and the mechanics were almost all at the DQ themselves for lunch. The most vivid picture in my mind, though, is that of the drooping remains of a van that had been up on a frame lift inside the front bay, melted like a chocolate bar on a hot summer's day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
80 feet really isn't very far you know. Lucky your car didn't explode.
Actually, I'm probably unlucky... that was my '74 Fury... passed everything on the road except a gas pump...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My dad (ex NYFD) says the dramatic explosions of cars you see in movies is pretty much a myth. It doesn't happen much in real life. Or at least not in NYC :) He also says that if your car catches on fire and it's anything more than a minor one, just get out, and hope the FD takes their time, cause it's better to "write off" the car than fix it.
It is true to say that cars don't generally explode -- either automobiles or subway vehicles. However to build subway vehicles out of aluminium is just inviting for trouble. Remember that cable car that burnt down on the Alps? Well that was due to grease on the trucks. If grease on trucks and suspension can burn 30 odd people to death, imagine if a whole subway car catches fire between two stations, especially in those wide four track bit where passing trains on other tracks draw air through the tunnels to fan the fire. Not fun.
Lexcie
To the best of my knowledge, none of the MBTA's subway cars are built out of aluminum either and I think their most recent red line cars were constructed out of stainless steel. Another advantage of using aluminum is that the weight reduction also equates to reduced traction power consumption.
-Robert King
i asked the questions because the TTC in toronto canada, after their gloucester cars (i call them the original redbirds)every car built by montreal, Hawker-sidley Canada, and Bombadier UTDC have used aluminum to build their rapid transit cars. they i don't know if they have had any accidents but know that the cars their never had a carriage problem and are light weight. however back in the 80's a hawker sidley H-1 didn't survive an arson fire. those cars proved strong built and durable.
...after their gloucester cars (i call them the original redbirds)...
Huh? What do you mean by 'red' Gloucsters? Didn't you know they were made out of aluminum like all the other subway cars??!! See:
Just kidding - I could't resist doing that, knowing that there were six Gloucster cars that were actually made out of aluminum and never painted red. The reduced weight and increased performance of the six Gloucsters made out of aluminum compared to any other of the original Gloucsters was what prompted the TTC to specify aluminum for all future subway car orders except for the G3s (and those G3s that became G4s) which only had aluminum roofs.
Also, London Underground have been using aluminum for their subway cars starting in the late 1940s/early 1950s with the R type subsurface stock. Some R stock cars were made out of steel and some were made out of aluminum. Aluminum eventually became the standard material for all London Underground cars in 1959 with the production run of 59 stock of which all the cars had aluminum bodies. To the best of my knowledge, all of London Underground's passenger carrying fleet, except for historic vehicles, have aluminum bodies.
Both the London Underground and the TTC haven't had problems with their subway cars being made out of aluminum although the London Underground have recently been painting their cars because it's easier to remove graffiti from the painted surfaces than from bare aluminum.
-Robert King
Maybe the TA has never examined aluminum, but the BMT has surely used it.
Elias
Take an Aluminium can. Hold it in your hand and crush it against your forehead. Now imagine you're in a subway car impacting with another subway car. Get my point? The makers of Aluminium, bringing you the ICE train and deadly British rail disasters four years running.
London Transport have used aluminium cars for years without any problems. The first was the 59 stock. I know of no fatalities with that stock connected with the construction.
Simon
Swindon UK
Were aluminium cars involved in the 1975 Moorgate accident? I seem to recall the crushed up cars were Northern Line stock 1949 -- which according to your data, would have been of steel construction.
No, the 38 stock was/is carbon steel. As far as I am aware all LT stock is now aluminium.
Simon
Swindon UK
Don't forget about the R stock! The R stock cars that were made out of aluminum instead of steel predated the 1959 stock by several years...
-Robert King
The material is lighter, but they need more of it for certain things, which negates the savings. Aluminum is also more expensive and harder to work with and repair.
-Hank
What are the Washington Metro cars made out of? They look like aluminium to me, for what that's worth.
It is my non-expert understanding that steel has the most strength, pound-for-pound. Thus to build an aluminum subway car that is as durable as a steel car, it would have to be heavier, not lighter.
:-) Andrew
I don't think enough people understand that aluminum subway cars aren't entirely built out of aluminum, which is a key point. Aluminum subway actually have steel frames - that's where the structural strength comes from - but the body panels on top of the steel frame are made out of aluminum - that's where the weight reduction from the aluminum takes place; the aluminum replaces steel where steel isn't required to provide structural strength. The result is a strong subway car that weighs less than one built entirely out of steel.
-Robert King
I boarded the F train at Continental at 7:07 as normal. Naturally we went express to Roosevelt leaving dozens of people standing at the local stations, waiting for the elusive R train. But that is another topic.
While waiting at Continental, I decided to investigate one of the boxes hanging from the ceiling, positioned directly next to the 10 car marker, and 8 car marker. All along, I thought these were some kind of punch boxes.
But it's just a box with a speaker and button which reads, "call for asistance". Just under the lettering, there is Braille, just like on an elevator. ??????????
Now, that box is solely for the use of T/O's. Why the Braille? It makes no sense.
I asked a T/O when I got off. She was an attractive lady with a very outgoing personality. She said that when she first saw the box, she checked it out since it's positioned like a punch box, and wanted to know what it was. She also could not figure out why Braille was on the box.
Another one of the subways mysteries.
It's an emergency call box that was converted into an intercom to Continental Tower.
Either that, or they're hiring more blind T/O's off the street.
Here's a related, but not totally relevant topic...
I saw an Amtrak manifest a while ago that had a note on it to the effect that from July 1, 2001, guide horses for the blind could also be considered animals at work and therefore under ADA regulations, Amtrak trains are obliged to carry them. I forget what the precise term for "guide horses" are -- but I'd just like to ask the following practical question:
How are they supposed to fit through the door, or ascend/descend the steps from a low-level platform?
These are specially bred, MINIATURE horses.
Minature???????????????????????????(continues forever)
I only saw those in cartoons, like Barney Bear (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH BARNEY THE DINOSAUR!!!!) They're real? Wow! I better go out there and look for one.
Yeah, it's not just Amtrak crew who think they are a joke. I'm not an Amtrak crew -- but I wouldn't like to be there when one of them barrels through and mistakes the paper napkins in the Cafe Car for hay. How small are those horses? 12 H.H.? That's still bigger than a golden retriever.
Yeah, it's not just Amtrak crew who think they are a joke. I'm not an Amtrak crew -- but I wouldn't like to be there when one of them barrels through and mistakes the paper napkins in the Cafe Car for hay. How small are those horses? 12 H.H.? That's still bigger than a golden retriever.
From what I've heard, the guide horses are about the size of a medium to large dog, a golden retriever for example. They're harder to train than are dogs but have a considerably longer lifespan, hence their increasing popularity.
From what I've heard, the guide horses are about the size of a medium to large dog, a golden retriever for example.
The one photograph I've seen would lead me to believe they stand about four feet tall at the shoulder... quite a bit larger even than the largest of my dogs, who is considerably larger than a golden retriever.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I forgot about that! You're right. Someone pointed that out to me this week. Isn't that funny. What kind of statement is the TA making?? LOL!
ADA requires Braille on DRIVE THROUGH TELLER WINDOWS ... think about that, won't you? :)
Well, the blind person making the transaction *might* be in the back seat, with a driver (or cab dirver) in the front.
Elais
I suppose ... I just hope the punch buttons in the subway aren't for the T/O though.
Not so. The keypads are universal for each machine manufacturer. Since a standard machine MUST have them, they save the bucks on a new one for the drive-thru.
-Hank
There's nothing in this message. Where am I supposed to go for the live chat thing?
http://www.subtalklive.com
Not that I'm planning to join the chat, but... any particular reason the date shows as April 7th?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought we already discussed this.
Your software has a problem, I have no idea what it is.
Today was a cool day, I was coming home soaked from the rain (I didn't see the weather report) and I was on my D train and there were little kids running around the train being kids, and between the 59 Street and 125 Street a person came out and did a couple of magic tricks with cards, coins, paper for the kids, (some of the kids were handicapped) and he put a smile on all their faces even all of the passengers in the car. Everyone thanked the person, I thanked him too, making a subway trip as dull as the D fun. It was good to see a huge smile on all of the kids faces as well. Since some of them had it tough. I noticed though that he had MTA clothing on, a conductor? a t/o? A supervisor?
Cool. What kind of tricks did he do? Did you note the station stops and the car # this happened?
Where were they headed?
Information will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
OH! Did this guy carry a shopping cart mini wheelie thing? Did he have a bird? I've seen a magician, well I saw someone doing tricks on the L from ENY to 14th 8th.
The one I saw on the N toward Queens a couple of times had a white rabbit and can levitate a dollar bill. Are we all talking about the same guy?
I've seen a gentleman board a SB 3 train at Chambers St.
with a long black overcoat, and pulling a "caboose like"
red carry-along "magic booth" complete with decor and he
would proceed to pluck a dove out of his ten gallon hat
A-N-D tear up a standard sized playing card and have it
recomposed by the time the doors opened at Park Place....
At which point he vanished onto the platform.
weird stuff...
I've been wondering about this for many months, but why are there extra tracks just north of 42nd St - 8th Av.? I've noticed them while leaving the lower level platform at 50th St. on the E, and the E had to have a speed restriction so as to switch tracks and make a lot of sparks. I think they have something to do with connecting them to the unused lower level, but what was the lower level used for?
Does anyone have TRACK MAP of the area and how I can configure the track switches?
Info. will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
> Does anyone have TRACK MAP
Take a look around the site.... the track maps are among the most popular feature.
Okie, thanks.
>>what was the lower level used for?<<
From what I've learned:
1. Aqueduct specials.
2. Rush hour E trains.
However, no one I've spoken to seems to know exactly why the thing was built. Further, why was it built on one side?
That's one of the better unanswered questions. The actual design purpose of the lower level at 42nd St. is unknown.
Did I read on this site that part of the reason was that the nefarious IND built it to block the IRT from expanding? Juicy if true.
It's been stated here many times that the lower level at 42nd Street-Eighth Avenue was put there to block extension of the Flushing Line. It's also been debunked here many times. People don't seem to read the posts debunking the myth, but here's another one anyway.
In short, it's not true. They're at two different depths.
David
Finally it cooled off today and it was "safe" to head into the city without being baked.I took the LIRR from Sea Cliff for a pretty uneventful ride. Changed at Mineola for the Penn train. It was an M-1, with a blue stripe and the front car was open. The ride was pretty smooth and quick, especially around Jamaica, you can really feel the difference the concrete ties make. They are starting to remodel Jamaica station. Lots of old diesel engines are now used for work trains. One thing's for sure things are really CHANGING at Jamaica.
When we got to the tunnel I stood at the front window. Lately the cab doors aren't open enabling a good view of the tunnel.
Once I got off I headed down to 34th/Broadway for a Q to Canal street. It was still an oven there, fortunately the Q arrived shortly.
I was walking around Chinatown when it started to pour, and I chose to use Grand street. Now I needed to get the 51/Lex, but this was a rather complicated procedure since you have that lovely go with 53rd street closure, and no E trains. I took the shuttle, which always seems to have great A/C to Bway-Laf. I sure wish it ran to W4th since that was where I was going (to take an A or C to Fulton, then a 4 uptown and finally a 6 to 51st). I waited 15 minutes for the F train. In that time the shuttle arrived again. The F was packed. I got off at W4th and got downtown C which arrived fairly shortly. The C was not too crowded. I took it to Bway-Nassau and walked up the ramp to 4/5. A 4 came and I took it to Brooklyn bridge where I got an R142A 6 train. The ride on the R142A was OK but the A/C wasn't as cold as the R62 4 train I just got off of. Also for some reason the lights flicker around 3rd rail gaps.
After spending some time at Barnes and Noble, and gettinga Cinnabon (to take home) I took a 6 one stop tp 59th and ate at the Wendy's on 3rd avenue. The next stop for me would be Penn station for my train home. So I waited for the R for a long time at Lex/60th (no N service). One finally came and it was too packed to board, but I knew another one was behind it (there was a breeze coming out of the tunnel). The next train was an R32. I took it to a HOT Times Square for the 1 down to Penn.
The 4:19pm LIRR PW train went pretty smoothly at first. I managed to get in the front car and the window was available again (lucky). The ride through the tunnel was nice, it's nice to look at from the window (which I usually don't get, because the front car is closed or the cab door is open). I notice all the signals codes start with 3, is that for the line # (line 3)? This car was an M-3. But the ride seemed a bit rougher, and at Auburndale we started having problems. Just short of the station the train came to an abrupt halt. After a few minutes we started up again. Then after Bayside it happened again. The conductor came up to the engineer and the engineer said there's something wrong with the speed control. It keeps giving a penalty brake.
So the C/R radios into control that the ASC must be "cut out" because the train keeps going into emergency. They clear us and we proceed.
The rest of the ride to Great Neck was OK but not too fast.
The N21 bus ride from there went OK, but the driver seemed not alert, he missed several requested stops.
Also for some reason the lights flicker around 3rd rail gaps.
Was this on the R62A train or the R142A?
Nice train trip, although I don't know a whole lot about LIRR trains.
Railfan Pete.
The flickering was on the R142A I rode on the 6.
It's disgusting that an R train is too packed to enter on a Saturday. But with all the GO's it's no wonder.
You should have held the doors a few minutes longer in protest.
In answer to your question, the signals on line 3 have 3 on the signal mast. They are 3E02,04,08, 14,18, 22, and 24. Leaving Penn Station towards Queens, the lines are numbered 4,3,2 and 1 north to south. However, on exit into Queens, the lines are numbered 4,3,1,3. Two and three change sides, like in square dancing.
Michael
When the F is running via 63rd street it makes travel to the 50th/Lex area quite difficult. I was in Chinatown today and normally I'd take the Q then get a 6 at Union Sqaure but it was pouring and I was closer to Grand street.
I took the shuttle and the trip from Grand street to 51/Lex took 40 minutes. At Bway Lafeyette the transfer is to the downtown 6 only. So I had to go this roundabout way, the F to W4th, the C to Bway-Nassau, the 4 to BB and then the 6 to 51st. And the wait for the F is Forever.
It would've not been so bad if I didn't have to wait for that F, and I wouldn't have if the shuttle ran to W4th where there are more connections. Well I guess it would've just paid taking the 6 down to Canal and then crossing over for an uptown 6.
I only realized about the "no E G.O." when it was announced. There were no signs about the 53/Lex closure in the station, and there wasn't anything on the MTA website last night so I thought the G.O. was cancelled. Apparently G.O.'s are posted there a week in advance, so if anything is going on this weekend and you happen to log on Friday night, you're out of luck.
Of all the G.O.'s I hate this one the most because it makes getting to 51st/Lex a pain in the neck. Also R trains are packed with E passengers, and they run less often than the E.
If the R ran at more frequent headways then it wouldn't be such a pain. But with R's getting packed, bunched, and delayed, plus addition riders on the F, this G.O. causes terribly irregular service on weekends on the R and F. Plus with no N running between QBP and 57-7th, this has an even further negative impact.
Of course for me it would've saved me a load of time getting a Q at Canal but it was pouring and it was walk from where I was. Well I realize now that the division B is all screwy on weekends, so I should've just taken the 6 downtown and then uptown.
So you'd prefer they have the G.O.'s during rush hour, when they could inconvenience the maximum number of people (but not you, since you don't work)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd rather them increase R headways. The G.O. itself is understandable. But having R headways on the E is not. Since the R has to cover for two lines (the E and R) then it should run twice as often when the 53rd street work is in effect.
And with more freuqnt R headways the local might get bottlenecked between Roosevelt and 36th, so just send the F's express like the oughtta be. I still think they could send the F express west of Roosevelt avenue, it's just a bunch of BS.
I presume you had an unlimited ride MetroCard--why not just go outside at Broadway-Lafayette and transfer to the Uptown 6 at Bleecker?
It was raining quite hard at that time, and I don't know that area that well. One thing's for sure I'm avoiding the Forever and Rarely on the weekends since they come less often than a blue moon.
Take the F West 4, the A or C to 42, the 7 to Grand Central and the 6 to 51 St.
Who says you have to know the area well? Broadway-Lafayette connects to the southbound 6 at Bleecker. The northbound 6 is right across the street. If you think you might get lost, walk to the southbound platform, go to its main exit (i.e., the exit at the original, pre-extension section of platform), exit there, and cross the street.
If you had been willing to walk two short blocks instead of ducking in at Grand, you could have taken the J straight to Canal.
C at euclid. 6 r32's with 2 r38's. 3821-0/3505-4/3553-2/4061-0.
"C at euclid. 6 r32's with 2 r38's. 3821-0/3505-4/3553-2/4061-0."
Two weeks ago, I saw a 10 car train on the (A) comprised of 2 R-32s and 8 R-38s. Maybe the same train with a different mix ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It is not unusual to see an A or C train with mixed equipment of R32's and R38's. And I am not talking about the GE/GOH'ed R32's either, which are all currently out of service.
At least they blend together stylistically. Luckily, there doesn't seem to be any chance of a return to the smorgasbord trains of 1969-70.
Bill, if the GE r/32 are all on summer vacation together, will they come back together as a unit? Will they come back scattered like orphans amoung their relatives, the R/38s?
I, for one, would like to see them just once at their reunion.
avid
They mix them up with the regular R38's. I have never seen them as a solid unit, yet I'm sure they were together after they came back from GOH. BTW: 3934/45 have not made an appearance for a long time, I heard that these were the parts/cannibalised cars, were supposed to be put back together, but hasn't happened for some reason.
I once saw a better one on the c - R32,R38,R32GE,R38
It was even more interesting - nerve racking to me - in 1969-70. You could have as many as five different car types in the same train. It had to be a handling nightmare.
>>It had to be a handling nightmare.<<
Imagine when it came time to break that train up so that the cars could return to their home yards.
>>I once saw a better one on the c - R32,R38,R32GE,R38<<
Actually, the R-32GE units are considered to be part of the R-38 fleet and are generally operated with the R-38s. But recently, the C line has had a few mixed trains, and if you see the front car of an A train is R-32's, you're likely to see some R-38's trailing it. I don't know why, but the R-38's and R-32s have been operating together much more often recently.
I don't get to take the "L" very much. Do the R/40M and r/42s get tossed together much?
avid
All the time, IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
on the J/M/Z, not on the L
I'll be there in about an hour.
While heading to work to Casey Stengel at 0330am i saw #6650-6646/#6636-#6640 making simulation stop.
Peace
David Justiniano
they now feature ads and paintings. gives it a nicer look along with the smooth interior lines.
AUGUST 24TH 2001 - Retirement of Newark City Subway PCCs.
AUGUST 24TH 1984 - Retirement of Lackawanna MUs on the Morris & Essex Lines.
Anything else on this date I missed ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When I took the (F) from Union Turnpike to 14 St this Morning. When the (F) that I was on came into 71 Ave. It came on the LOCAL Track instead of the EXPRESS Track. And the (F) I was on went EXPRESS on the LOCAL Track to Rossvelt Ave.
So what is the problem this morning that my (F) end up running EXPRESS on the LOCAL Track?
No problem. Scheduled work. R replaces E to Whitehall. F through 63rd tube. Express tracks out from Roosevelt to 8th ave./50 st. in Manhattan. No service at all at 5th ave., Lex ave. and 23/Ely.
I am talking about the EXPRESS Tracks Between 71 Ave and Rossvelt Ave. My (F) end up Running EXPRESS on the LOCAL Track from 71 Ave to Rossvelt Ave.
What's the problem with the EXPRESS TRACKS between 71 Ave and Rossvelt Ave?
As a guess, there was probably a train that went BIE somewhere in that stretch. Rather than stack up trains behind it, they sent yours express on the local. And to head off the next question, you didn't see it because by the time you got to where it had been, the problem had been resolved and the train moved out.
No problem with that either. Trying to keep the service simple and serve the most people because of the reroutes. Easier to let them go local than to keep switching every F train.
I was on the board at 179 (Sat.) and I wound up getting the last round trip of someone's job, and I too was surpirised that they didn't switch us at 71st. Running on the express tracks is a bit easier than express on the local, where you have to slow down and sound the horn as you pass the local stations.
On the way back, I noticed that the new Continental Av. tower was closed, and all the desks, computers, AND the interlocking machine were covered over with plastic. It looks like they must have been painting in there or something. So I guess they used this GO as an opportunity to close the tower for work, and noone was there to operate the switches to send sbound trains to the exp. or nbound F's to the local.
Or maybe the GO was because of the painting and the inability to staff the tower?
Perhaps asbestos abatement work.
That whole front extension of the tower is brand new (a matter of weeks old). I can see them adding a coat of paint, but not abating asbestos, which would be done before the new extension opened.
Ahhh...but that's how the TA works many of times.
Well I think the F runs express between 71st and Roosevelt avenue, then local between Roosevelt avenue and 36th street.
As I've said before this makes no sense. Let them run the F express all the way, and the R should run twice as often to make up for double the pax load (R is packed as result of getting E pax on top of regular R rivers). Unfortunately the TA doesn't see it that way, and believes everyone in Queens should ride a packed sardine can on the weekend and wait forever for a train.
Could be a multitude of reasons. Work train ahead of you; signal problems ahead; BIE ahead; your leader being detained at Roosevelt due to police action or door problems. By the time you got there, the offending train was gone. What's the big deal? One additional minute of running time?
why ask why the train operated express as scheduled only that it operated on the local
My Philly Trip is now eather Next Saturday or The Saturday after Next Saturday b/c. The weather for This Sunday for NYC Calls for RAIN! And in Phily. They getting ALOT Of RAIN AND THUNDER! So the Philly trip date have been move b/c due to those Reasons!
Keep in mind that, if you plan to ride the Market St el, it's bussing on weekends from 69th St to 15th St for all weekends in August. Also, route 10 is bussing full-time due to trackwork.
Just in case anyone's in the mood, Turner Classic Movies channel (TCM) is running "Taking of Pelham 123" at 2:30 AM Eastern time.
Nice. I'm checking what TCM is playing, and it looks like some sort of train marathon.
10PM-12AM: The Great Train Robbery
12AM-2:30AM: The Train
~Taking of Pelham 123~
4:30AM-6:30: The Biggest Bundle of Them All
It seems to end there, so I'm guessing if they were doing a special on train movies, it was all day Saturday.
I tend to keep a satellite receive on while I'm working. Didn't think folks here would be all that interested in the others, but yep - that's exactly what they've been doing ...
I don't have cable - besides I bought the video tape a while back.
Heh. I don't believe in cable either - around here, it's AOLTimeWeenie and thus, we have a pizza pan on the roof along with about 70% of their former subscribers back before they bought Cablevision around here. In the greater scheme of things though, it wasn't a terrbily great movie but given its legendary status among some folks here, figured I'd provide a heads-up in case anyone was awake for it.
I won't detail the "heads-up" what. :)
The book was a lot better. I strongly reccomend it if you can get your hands on a copy.
I'm sure it was ... one of these days, I'll hopefully have the time to take it in ... first book on my own list though is BigEdIRTmanEl's "they moved millions!" I'm psyched, whenever time permits ...
Ah, good reading material. Last I heard, Big Ed has copies available. I got mine from him not too long ago.
Incidentally, they typically show a toned-down version of Pelham 1-2-3 on TV. The four-letter words are omitted as well as Jerry Stiller's classic line, "Even great men have to pee".
Sorry if I s-s-spoiled it for anyone.:-)
At least now you know that R-17 on the tail end of the first train visible in the movie is 6762.
I was *amazed* that TCM left all of the audio intact and did it in letterbox format ... one of the nice things about the pizza pan instead of cable is if you have a widescreen set, the dish delivers it in 16:9 format ... cable can't. :)
You can spot things in the widescreen version that aren't apparent in the standard version. Two things I can think of right away are the stop at "Grand Central", where the doors on 7339 across the platform open up a second or two after Pelham 1-2-3's doors open, and the rear section of Pelham closing down before the front section right after Mr. Blue boards the train.
I noticed awhile back that the schedules on their site (pdfs) were updated, but never did find any new print timetables - that is, until today - for the N and Q/Q. The layout seems a bit nicer than the old ones.
Anyoneknow if they are out and about for the other lines?
I have for the A, E, F, N, W and the J/Z.
The Q/Q has escaped me but I will get my hands on it.
they seemed pretty well stocked at Dekaub av. with Q and N schedules...
"The Q/Q has escaped me but I will get my hands on it."
Quick little bugger, isn't it?
Elias
Where'd you get J/Z?
Also, which sections of the A and F did you get?
As for my list, it's as follows:
A (207-Jay), B/D/S/S, E, F (Lex-CI), G, N, Q/Q, R, W.
Where did I get the J/Z? To be honest I don't remember except that the station was not even near the J/Z.
I got the same sections of the A and F that you have.
They also have new schedules for the G, both pieces of the A(North and SOuth), C and ther sixth avenue (B,D,S,S)
Where'd you get J/Z?
Also, which sections of the A and F did you get?
As for my list, it's as follows:
A (207-Jay), A/S, B/D/S/S, E, F (Lex-CI), G, N, Q/Q, R, W.
I'll even go as far as to list the stations I got them from.
A (207-Jay): 59 St-Columbus Circle (58th St. entrance)
A/S: Howard Beach-JFK (Long-term parking entrance)
B/D/S/S: Rockefeller Center
C: Broadway-ENY (Street level entrance)
E: Jamaica Center (Parsons Blvd entrance)
F (Lex-CI): Rockefeller Center
G: 21 St-Van Alst
J/Z: Jamaica Center (Parsons Blvd entrance)
L: Broadway-ENY (Street level entrance)
N: Union Square
Q/Q: Union Square
R: Union Square
W: Grand Central (near elevator entrance)
I dunno if any of you are obsessed with the subway THAT much, but i had this dream once where i had ALL the timetables for the lines. This was back when I only had the N one and the timetables were a new invention.
I don't go out of my way to search for schedules, but I do pick them up when I see them. The only B Division route I've found is the R. (I've also found the 2000 MetroCard bus schedule -- there's a stack of them at 96th on the 1/2/3/9 in the south mezzanine.)
There's a combined schedule for the B/D/S/S. It must have been printed and released in a hurry, too, as it refers to a Broadway/Layayette (sic) St station, and a station at Grand and Christie (sic) Sts.
Years ago I might have agreed with your assessment but after seeing some of the postings in other bulletin boards and other things I have read I have to say that the spelling you saw is the way the person doing the editing knows how to spell it.
A very sad commentary on our educational system.
Was anyone at the ALCO / DL&W Anniversary celebration in Scranton, PA yesterday (saturday)?
I guess not. You all missed a wicked good time.
Railpace 'HotNews' posted 7 photos of the Alco celebration for the benefit of those of us who missed it. (scroll down 'till you get to it)
Yesterday, at 11:30am, I boarded an M6 bus at 34t St/6th Ave to go to 45th St to conduct some business. The next time I used it was at 12:30pm at the turnstile at 49th St/Broadway. I couldn't gain access, the reader on the turnstile said "JUST USED".
I thought there was an 18 minute lockout, seems like a 60 minute lockout to me. What happened here ?
Bill "Newkirk"
At 49th,did you have to swipe more than once before that occured? I have had that happen...Also,it seems to me that the intial swipe on a Funpass takes a couple of tries before it activates....or maybe its me....lol
sometimes when it is last used in bus and the customer next enters the subway we see such a problem. If that happens, go to your dfriendly neighborhood station agent and tell ask them to check your card because it wont let you in and it was longer than 18 minutes. When we check your card we can see it was more than 18 minutes and we are instructed in such a case to let the customer enter through the gate or to buzz them in.
After swiping my card about 15 times with the readout variously saying "PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN" and "PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE", I finally walked over the S/A at Bedford Av. to let him know, and he told me to swipe it at another turnstile. It wasn't until I protested, "But I'm going to lose a fare!" that he asked to see my card and buzzed me through the service gate. You'd think he could have just checked my damn card in the first place. Shouldn't he know that swiping again can cost a fare? I think he was either lazy or wanted to screw with me!
Sorry to hear about your problem. All S/As are instructed to allow entry if the customer keeps getting the swipe again, swipe again here or just used messages.
Next time you face that S/A again just ask them to "can you check my card?" While they are checking advise of the message.
The agent should also be aware of gates that need service, i.e. giving customers a lot of problems.
Mr t__:^)
Right! We also call in defective gates, defective MVMs, etc. Of course, when they will show up to repair the item is a big unknown.
That's right. Turnstiles misbehave, and so do HEETs. That's what the maintainers are there for. I believe in a high capacity station like Penn Station , the maintainer will be there no time. Low capacity stations? Forget about it!
Even Token Booth Terminals are problematic. I spent one day without a TBT and could only sell tokens. I didn't do a lot in sales.
-Stef
Something went wrong. Not only is the lockout only 18 minutes, it only applies at the same station or on the same bus line as where you first swiped.
This was accomplished by boarding an R-68 (Q) at Times Square (great A/C) and ran express down Broadway. We ran express on the Brighton from Prospect Park to Sheepshead Bay.
After a quick lunch at Nathans it was a (W) that ran express north up the Sea Beach middle to 59th St. Perhaps that move can be accomplished today ? If so, check it out. Saw an R40 slant on the (W) at Coney Island creek on the approach to Stillwell.
Bill "Newkirk"
I got to operate the express Q today. It was a cool job, at three round trips. Certainly beats the 4 trips on the J I had a couple of Sundays ago, and three trips last Thurs. What a difference the express run and faster timers can make.
From my experience as a motorman I can see where you're at. Even doing a day's wprk on one's fanny can be pretty tiring when your making a mess of stops, the slowing for curves and timers...it is WORK...much like the most boring job I ever did with the handles...running a switch engine in Laurel [MT] Yard.
When I was a M/M I'd rate the worst on the B div. 2 1/2 on the [then] RR or 2 round tips on the QJ..I was lucky, the most I ever made on the QJ to Coney was 1 1/2.
The Slant R-40 that you got on the "W" line was probably a spare train used for the "B" and they assigned that train to the "W".
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I haven't been up to 241st/White Plains Rd now called Wakefield/241st St since the resignaling of the line north of East 180th St.
At East 180th St, there was a test train of R-142s with signs on the windows proclaiming this was a test train. The numbers were in the 6600s, don't remember the rest. Spoke to the T/O who said the cars were at $2 Milllion a pop.
He spoke of ironing out the bugs and such. I asked him how many trains were in service on the #2 line. He hesitated to count in his head and said 14 trains. At that time, while waiting for a #2 to take me to 241, sure enough a train of R-142s enter the station. The ride to 241 was good, the car was clean and the A/C was decent. it wasn't 100 degress yesterday though !
At 241st St/Wakefield, I noticed something that differed from other northern IRT terminals. Instead of the platforms feeding into the fare control area at the very end, the arrangment at 241st St made you exit at a stairwell in mid platform. It seems to me that the line may have been destined to be extended northward. Was this the case ?
Back to the R-142s, this was about 4:30pm Saturday and the T/O they were going back into the yard. This was about 4:30pm on Saturday, were they tesing them on the Dyre Ave or on the White Plains Rd. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>At 241st St/Wakefield, I noticed something that differed from other northern IRT terminals. Instead of the platforms feeding into the fare control area at the very end, the arrangment at 241st St made you exit at a stairwell in mid platform. It seems to me that the line may have been destined to be extended northward. Was this the case ?
<<
I don't think so - at least I have never seen anything in print on that.
I have a theory though - that when the station was originally built the staircase was at the end of ths platform, perhaps when the platform was extended to fit ten cars they had to go north to avoid the switches at the other end.
Just a theory.
well 6351-6360 where testing at baychester av today 8/12/01
"At 241st St/Wakefield, I noticed something that differed from other northern IRT terminals. Instead of the platforms feeding
into the fare control area at the very end, the arrangment at 241st St made you exit at a stairwell in mid platform. It seems to me
that the line may have been destined to be extended northward. Was this the case ?"
There was a plan to extend the White Plains Road IRT line to Mount Vernon back in the 1910s or 1920s but it never came to fruit.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
They wanted to extend the 2 to Mount Vernon? As if it wasn't already long enough of a line? Thankfully this did not happen. If the ROW north of Dyre Avenue still existed (past the bumpers, which are a short distance north of the Dyre Avenue station), maybe an extension into Mount Vernon or even New Rochelle could have been done. Had that ROW survived in tact into the beginning of the MTA era (1968), such an extension could have happened.
true the 2 is the second longest line in the system so why extend the #2
What the difference how long a line is? Most people don't ride a subway line from end to end.
okay lets get this it would make waiting times even worse because the train would have to go farther then normal look at the gap bewteen trains on the no2 line it would force the ta to by more cars to meet up with rush the srains wont be stuffed
r142man
Scheduled waiting times are determined by need and constrained by track and/or fleet capacity in cases where need outstrips capacity. Length of the line is not a factor.
David
The A local to Far Rock is really 20 minutes close to the limits of most people. If you have a bad trip up and the dispatcher is pissed it's 4 hrs without a break and that is just cruel especially in the heat.
The TA wants two r/t's on most of these long lines for most of the jobs and would likely switch terminals or service type (express Vs. local) on these extensions because no one would pick these jobs unless they had big penalties which is also is a no-no. Half the M guys have voodoo dolls of the line supervisor because of this ninth ave stuff.
My nightmare would be a connection between the A and the N,,R in Brooklyn. Then someone could promote the Z train, Queens local from 179 then Bway Local in Manhattan, then Fulton local to Mott Av. How long would that take to run?
In the meantime the X from 179 local to Parsons Archer J might be a close second.
For one thing, most of the busses from Mount Vernon already connect to the #2.
If the Second Avenue subway went to Dyre Avenue, then they could run both the 2 and 5 to Mount Vernon and have express trains run all the way there (stopping at South 4th, 241st, and Gun Hill).
so it would peak direction service
I think I saw that train myself. They open the doors on the wrong side, right? They always test them that way, which isn't a bad idea. You can simulate real operations that way.
i saw it for my self to on the white plains rd line as 7421-7430 was doing it
On today's same trip with my mom, my brother, and I, we were waiting for a train (whichever pulled in first) at 42nd St. Times Square on the s/b platform to 34 St. - Penn Station.
When I reached the top of the stairs, an R62 #1 train was serving on the uptown platform local to 242 St. That train served passengers and slowly left the station.
A few minutes later, a R62 #3 train pulls up on the uptown platform waiting to slow down, and at the same time, a Redbird #5 train pulls up! (It was part of a service advisory, but I didn't know it at the time.) I carefully scan the rollsigns as the cars passed by, and one of them had a #4 with a diamond around it!
The conductor remarked "#5 train - express, 34 St. Penn Station will be next" over the P/A.
Then, simultaneously, a #1 train (R62 s/b train) pulls up, and I liked the strong (but quiet) A/C from there. The #5 train took off seconds before we did, (R62 #2239 paired with 2238) and when both trains drew to a stop, I keenly noticed one of the car #'s of the #5 train at Penn Station.
Guess what... it read the number #8888!
Since the doors were open, I quickly made my way out, and thought to myself, that's a weird car #. (Sorry I don't know the lead car # or any other car #'s.)
Any responses? They will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
R-33 8888 has been assigned to the #5 fleet for several months.
As for the #1 and #3 line cars, those are R-62As, not R-62s. They look almost the same, but there are important differences in their equipment, especially in the areas of propulsion and braking.
David
Can you list for me the details of the differences between the R62's and the R62A's?
Answers wiil be appreciated.
Thank You.
Railfan Pete.
Cosmetic or engineering differences?
Peace,
ANDEE
Differences
1. 5-car sets
2. transverse cab
3. kawasaki builders' plate at end door head
4. route map stickers on overhead panels
5. different (smaller) font on rollsigns
6. .....
Nah, there's more cosmetic diffences than those...
Peace,
ANDEE
right...
which is why number 6 on the list
was followed by a set of ....'s
Well, since I don't get a lot of time on a R62 or an R62A, I need to ride them much more frequently like I do the R32's or R46's to find out the differences....
Railfan Pete.
All R-62s are assigned to the 4. R-62As are found on the 1, 3, and 9, assuming the 6 no longer has any. Not all R-62As have been linked up into 5-car sets; some are still single cars.
The 4 uses the entire R-62 class as part of its service and still needs Redbirds to provide enough service.
Dont forget about the #5
The 6 has zillions of R-62A's -- they probably make up the majority of the line's fleet. It only has a few Redbirds left, none of them R-36.
R62A - external speakers below non-rollsign side windows
R62 - no external speakers, and generally runs on the #4
correct me if I'm wrong...
You got 'em reversed! The R62s have the external speakers and the R62As don't. You're correct abouth the R62s generally running on the 4, although I spotted a train of R62s on the 6 last summer. I don't know why it was there, but it's not there now.
The R-62s have the external speakers (as "R142 #2" correctly pointed out). However, it should be noted that those speakers were added on several years after the cars entered service.
David
They were? So why didn't they add the external speakers to the R62As and R68/R68As?
hey! i witnessed it also. it was puzzling. i assume there was a train shortage on that line and it was on loan. today i saw one on the 4 line with the 7 route sign on it at franklin ave. in bklyn.
All R-62's and R-62A's, except for some of those running on the 3 and shuttle, are in five-car sets.
There is a transverse cab at the end of each five-car set, R-62 and R-62A alike.
Of course the builder's plate differs.
What's different about the strip maps? I've seen them on R-62's and R-62A's.
The fonts sometimes differ, but not always.
Really, I've found that the most reliable way to tell the two apart is that, if it's on the 4 it's an R-62, and otherwise (if it's in service) it's an R-62A.
What I've noticed is that the rollsigns are different. On the R62s, the destination signs are only one line. On most R62A's, they're two lines (which I think is better.)
:-) Andrew
There are a few R62's with R62a type roll signs. 1350 and 1415 come to mind immediately. There are a couple of R62a with R62 type signs as well.
Another weird Redbird car # is R26 #7777. Is that car still in service or is it now a condemned prisoner?
7777 is still around saw it at Unionport Yard across from East 180th street station 7773 is there also with the R-21/22 windows.
Oooooh, this CSX loco didn't only run away, it could fly, and for that matter it could fly to a non FRA railroad and pretend to be a redbird. Not bad!!
(For those who didn't remember, CSXT SD40-2 8888 was involved in the run-away in Ohio last month)
7777 is still in service too. I saw it on the 5 train today.
Sounds like a jackpot car.:-)
does the #5 make the same stops as the #2 when its runs on 7th ave
Yes it does. It either runs all the way into Brooklyn, and returns by Lexington Av or runs as far as Chambers St and takes the loop back to the East Side.
During some GOs, there may be exceptions in how the 5 operates. One year, 2 and 5 trains provided most service on the west side as a massive track project occurred at 96th St. Some 5's went to South Ferry, while others turned at 96th St and went back to the Bronx. In that case, the 5 (to 96th St) was a true 7th Av Train as it didn't make contact with the East Side one time.
-Stef
Regard what Stef has responded, but notice this.
When I checked the Service Advisory board the afternoon I got back home, at the www.mta.nyc.ny.us site, it said that #5 trains are REROUTED from 149 St. - Grand Concourse to Chambers St., then switching over to the LOCAL track to SOUTH FERRY with the #1 and #9 trains.
Of course, if a #5 train is switched over like this, it makes #2 express stops, then it will jump over a short distance down the local track to South Ferry.
Well, unfortunately, the Service Advisory lasted only during last weekend, and it is not in effect anymore, and neither will it be (I don't think) for quite some time.
My experiences.... (Sharing with others also who made the subway rides possible for me : )
Railfan Pete.
I must say that the Service Notice was erroneous even though it acurrately plotted the route of the 5 Train. It did run on the 1 Line to South Ferry, correct. But the train was scheduled to run without passengers from Chambers Street to Bowling Green. There was really no point in mentioning the 5 running on the 1 to South Ferry since those trains weren't scheduled to carry passengers.
Service patterns during GOs do change, and some months ago during construction, one was permitted to ride between the East and West Side using the 5. 2 and 3 service was affected to the point that the 2s were running uptown on the East Side, while the 5s were running uptown on the West Side. It was a railfan's adventure being able to go from Bowling Green to Chambers St by the Loop.
-Stef
But the 5 train I rode remained in service (nonstop) from Chambers to Bowling Green. The C/R made very explicit announcements inviting us to stay on board but telling us to transfer to a 2/3 to go to Brooklyn. He announced the transfers at Bowling Green (4 and ferries) at least three time; we had lots of time since a 1 in front of us took its time at South Ferry.
The other GO you refer to had all 2 and 4 service from Brooklyn running up the East Side. (The 3 was cut back to 42nd.) To make up for that, the 5 ran, in service all the way, from the Bronx down the East Side through South Ferry up the West Side back to the Bronx. If passengers hadn't been allowed to stay on, there would have been no access to the lower West Side stations from Brooklyn.
That's news to my ears. It was my understanding that they run light from Chambers St to Bowling Green. Also, the train I was on ordered it's passengers off the train.
Perhaps this needs to be made clear in these blasted GOs? Who writes these things up?
-Stef
I have a feeling my train was an exception. But for those who rode down from the Bronx and wanted the East Side but didn't transfer to the shuttle at 42nd (either because they didn't realize they had to or because they thought it would be easier to just stay on the same train), why not let them stay on through the loop? All of that trackage, except for the short bit from the switch off the outer loop to the 4's grand entrance, is used in revenue service all the time.
Incidentally, I suspect some of the passengers who stayed on past Chambers were surprised (a) to be passing through three stations that they had probably never seen before and (b) to enter Bowling Green from the south. (I asked the T/O at Chambers if he would be continuing up the East Side and I inadvertently made a loop with my finger. He was probably surprised I had any idea we'd be running north into Bowling Green. It's a good thing we weren't running the opposite way or I would have made a γ instead.)
I agree that GO's are publicized very poorly. If executed as announced to the public, 5 trains would have run express to Chambers and then stopped at Cortlandt, Rector, and South Ferry, going out of service there for the return to Bowling Green. Not that it matters if nobody sees the posters -- I didn't see a single one at any of the 7th Avenue stations or on my 5 train (although there were some on my 5 the two weeks ago). But (sarcasm begins here) as long as everybody entering at 86th on the 1/9 knows which line is serving 63rd Street, all is fine and dandy.
Im glad this came up. Yesterday on my final trip on the 1, a GO was in effect where we terminated at Chambers and "drop back". While in Chambers tower, I read a memo from the line superintendent stating that: "Anytime a 2,3, or 5 trains is rerouted via the SF loop, the train crews must discharge its passengers at Chambers and then proceed light around the loop."
Not stopping at South Ferry I can understand (with Redbirds and R-142's, at least), but why can't a train run nonstop with passengers, or even stop at Cortlandt and Rector?
A few passengers might even have some reason to stay on board past Bowling Green. It's a long walk from the 2/3 to the 4/5 at Fulton; it's much simpler and probably faster to just stay on a rerouted 5. During a 5 reroute like last weekend's, why should a passenger from, say, Dyre Avenue to Brooklyn Bridge have to change trains twice when the rerouted 5 will go straight to BB itself, in less time than it would take to transfer at 42nd or Fulton?
On the same trip back home, I was pretty tired and sat down heavily on the NJT Arrow III MU car #1351 (A/C has BEEN FIXED!)
Just before we arrived Rahway station, I spotted a jackhammer sputtering diesel locomotive (I think it was one of the CNJ types painted with NJT colors) followed by a thin black line, a Comet 2A car, then an ALP-44 electric locomotive, THEN a TRIPLET of TRAILING ARROW III cars! (the train was on express track #3, here there are SIX tracks)
WHOA! What kind of train was that? The lead locomotive in front made a weird exhaust noise as it sped along the tracks INBOUND towards New York.
Does ANYONE have any INFO. on this sighting?
Also, about a year ago, I noticed as we arrived track #1 at Newark Penn Sta. in the morning, I noticed a weird train on Track A.
There was a trailing ALP-44 locomotive, a set of about 6 Comet IV rail cars, then leading at the front is a DIESEL LOCO.! It looked like a GP-40-PH-2. It was just standing there.
Does ANYONE have any INFO. on this sighting as well?
Sorry I don't have any car #'s because the train was moving too fast for it. And for the sighting at Newark, it was too long ago to remember the #'s.
Any responses pertaining to this issue will be appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
They might have been moving some equipment up to the Meadows Complex for repairs.
this am Penn was steamy. The AC, Escalators and elevators were out in most of the station due to a power surge. The lIRR train announcer was making announcement over the PA system. Whilew the 8th ave end was cooler, it too was steamy due to the lack of ac on the 7th ave end. escalators were running on the 8th ave end.
The metal wall across 5 & 6 tracks at 2nd Av. was removed! This must be apart of the work they've been doing there in preparation for V service.
I wonder if they'll change the lineup for these tracks from three yellows and a call-on. (This is still posted for "B" service t 2nd Av. next to the punch at Bway-Lafayette)
Kinda old news Eric. The exact reason is up for debate but what I heard was that they were going to construct a crossover platform like the one at Canal St (on the J) at the south end of the station.
I heard they are going to use it to layup trains in the back. I don't know how far it goes back but I was told far enough for a 8 or 10 car train.
I heard they are going to use it to layup trains in the back. I don't know how far it goes back but I was told far enough for a 8 or 10 car train.
They only go back about 535 feet--not enough for a full train.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
It would work if they considered using 8 60' Cars for the V Line, but they aren't planning that, are they?
-Stef
Work is definitely underway. There appears to be a new feeder cable installed between the sections of 3rd Rail on both B5 and B6, that within the station, and the section in the previously covered tunnel.
Wanna take a guess what they'll do with signalling in this portion beyond the station? I can see homeballs going into the tunnel.
-Stef
I don't why they would go thru the trouble to make those sections alive. They must be going to run something back there. But that's the TA. I sure hope the homeless don't return.
Old news? I hadn't heard it. They've had me on the F several times, and I remember still seeing it, probably as recently as last week.
Can someone inform me of the salary range of a NYCTA Train Operator. Thanks
I think starting pay is $40,900. Throw in OT, night differential, etc... and I bet some guys will make $43,000+.
Starting rates are $22.06 for working in yards & 22.94 for raod rate. Top Salaries after 12/15/01 will be $24.35 raod. You get top pay after 231 raod days at work.
Robert
That's not too bad. If i end up single, I'll be one with the subway car... but with my luck i wont pass the training or something...
That's before taxes and pension deductions!
Union Dues, Pension, Medical riders, TDA (you get TDA's?), US Savings Bond, Municiple Credit Union deductions, charity deductions, garnshed wages (trying to think of all the deductions that can go on a pay check) >G<
and half the guys in the TA pay child support!!!!!!!!
and half the guys in the TA pay child support!!!!!!!!
So that's what they do on layovers :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
... damn ... >:(
There's nothing like belonging to the 19% club.
I thought it was 17%????
It went up.
Thank god I took myself off of the list when I got called for the LIRR. I will be making that salary, base and not including any relief day work as an Assistant Conductor. In one year, I will apply for Engine Service and start at 50k as an Engineer Trainee for one year and jump to full scale after the year. I was told by a buddy who is a FRA Qualified Locomotive Engineer that average salary for guys under 5 years in Engine Service is 75K and going up to about 100K.
You're absolutely right. But to make that kind of money (90k+), your life belongs to the LIRR.
"Babylon737", correct me if I'm wrong...........
All of the "heavy hitters" work the extra list. With the extra list, all crews work all tours within a certain week. You cannot pick a certain tour. And you get called with your assignment 3 hours before hand, and you're eligible to be called again 8 hours after your clear.
So within the same week, you could work within the AM, PM and the Midnight tours. Making plans are out of the question.
Of course if this doesn't interest you, you can always pick a job with steady hours like most crews, but this means that you'll have to get by on a meager $65K a year (perish the thought).
Also, you have to wait 10 years to get 4 weeks vacation in the LIRR while in the TA you only need to wait 3 years.
And seniority goes like a turtle in the LIRR. A rookie in the TA can at least work Vacation Relief to get Saturday/Sunday off and ALL major holidays off. Vacation Relief doesn't exist in the LIRR so weekends off are wayyy out of the question. Think about that while your collecting tickets while a rookie T/O is carving turkey on Thanksgiving.
According to my estimates and sources (LIRR Conductors), it takes 2 1/2 times as long to pick weekends off in the LIRR than it does as a T/O in the TA, and up to 5 times as long as a TA C/R.
So in the LIRR, you make a ton of $$$. But in the TA, you can have a life and plenty of $$$ too. Just not as much.
Do not get me wrong I am not knocking the TA.
I agree on all points.
I am a getting in at a good time, retirements over the next 5 years will be at the alltime highest. At the present time I was told the 50% of train service (engineers and conductors)have 5 years or less experience and with Jamaica Station going to be redone and Grand Central connection in the works they will be hiring which means alot of people behind me on the list.
The way the roster is moving I will be able to own a job out of Babylon within 3 years and some of those jobs with Saturday/Sunday off and that is pretty good compared to what is use to be. I am not looking for weekends off because it is tougher to get OT, you are usaully hanging around 50 on the list. Weekday relief days offer the best opportunity for OT. A friend for mine just went into service 3 months and he has Sat/Sun off, he is cursing because he cannot get any OT. On Thanksgiving I will work an early day with a start at 3:30am and be home in time for Turkey.
I am just happy to be on the job (getting on this job is near impossible) and I am not worrying about jobs and times and everything else.
I just happened to notice that post number
250,000
Was humbly posted by yours truly..........
Notice: The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
Way to go.....
We chase after numbers on another board that I post on,
they just did 116,000 today.
Elias
I saw a whole bunch of 3 trains at Unionport Yard. When will the southbound service start, and what time will it run?
okak when was this and getting ready for mourning rush
I saw atleast ONE consist (1800's) at 137th Yard
on the 1 line tonight... aren't the 1800's
Livonia (3 line) Cars????
Schmaybe East 180th DIDN'T get ALL the 3-line cars
from our yard..
I saw atleast ONE consist (1800's) at 137th Yard
on the 1 line tonight... aren't the 1800's
Livonia (3 line) Cars????
Schmaybe East 180th DIDN'T get ALL the 3-line cars
from our yard..
Most likely, the trains are put ins before 6AM running lit to 135 St./Lenox going into service no later than 96th St. Perhaps some IRT smployed SubTalker can look up the (supplement) schedule of the #3 line.
Read my post #250815. It answers the question.
David
These are early AM jobs. In the AM, they go into service at E.180St. During the PMs, they terminate at 96St-Bwy and run lite to E.180St yard.
I was over at 241st street on Saturday, I noticed something different on the R-142's, why are they black numbers on the bottom of the trains?
The number are to mark witch end is witch, (exp. #1 end and #2 End)
Robert
I was riding the 5 line yesterday, of course due to the GO at 138th street, the train went down the westside.The T/O told us in the first car we had to get off here at Chambers.I wanted to ride the loop back to Bowling Green via South Ferry.I railfanned it back from Bowling Green back to South Ferry.So as we got off at Chambers Street as the T/O requested, the train pulled out of Chambers Street, around the 5 car or so the train was full of people!!! you want to talk about being pissed!! I thought everyone was told to get off at Chambers Street.You couldnt understand the C/R the PA was lousy {redbird} PA of course. So the T/O told us to get off.So what happened to the people on the train I guess they didnt know anything about 20 people including myself were upset.No platform conductors to tell us otherwise.
Yesterday I saw a 5 pull in at Chambers. I was trying to get to Rector, and didn't know whether the 5 would stop there or not.
There was no one on the platform to tell anyone anything.
There were no service notices on the platform, or in the train.
There were no announcements made on the train once the doors opened at Chambers, but most people on it got off (there must have been some announcements before pulling into the station).
So I figured, why not, and got on. Once we were halfway between Chambers and Cortlandt there was an announcement telling us the train was going to Bowling Green only and then heading back to the Bronx. We proceed to skip Cortlandt, Rector, and South Ferry, and end up at Bowling Green.
It would have made sense to make that announcement while the doors were still open and the train stopped in Chambers Street station. In any case, no one seemed to care that there were people riding the 5 through to Bowling Green.
I remember going back from Bowling Green to South Ferry, the T/O told me I can stay on and ride back to South Ferry, The C/R made an audible annoucement, next stop on the train will be Chambers.Saturday you couldnt understand the lady C/R because the PA system was really bad.The T/O told us to get off, from the4 or 5 fifth car it was pretty crowded as the train pulled off.
I assume you waited for the next 5 and did the trip.
This afternoon, while working on the W, I ran into (figuratively, not literally) ZMan's "Blind" TO (see previous post from about a week or two ago "Blind To Wrecks ahvoc on the M").
She was on an R from Parsons/Archer to 95 St. DeKalb Tower radioed her to make express stops on the local - Pacific, 36, 59, 86,95. When she finally got it, Control joined the conversation, wanting to know why the train was getting a skip. The reply from DeKalb - it's 17 minutes late. Now Control was calling the train, and getting no answer. The train passed me at Pacific St, while I was waiting for the starting lights. Five minutes later, I left Pacific, heading for 36 St. As I passed 25 St, Murphy Tower started telling the train at 54 Ball (south end of 36 St southbound local) to punch for the lineup.
When I arrived at 36 St, it was still there, so I was nice - I ran over to the R, pounded on the cab window and told her that Control and the Tower were calling her. Keying her radio accomplished nothing - until she turned it on! (It would seem that the voice I'd heard earlier was her CR). Having done my good deed for the day, I got back on my train and headed off. Unfortunately, the fun was just beginning...
TO "Control, I believe you were trying to contact the xxxxRomeo out of Parsons?"
TW/O "(I can't do her statement justice. The poor Tower Op lost it at the TO. It was a 2 minute harangue, with the TO still trying to get Control)" With the train now moving - Murphy having given in and lined it up without a route request, the TW/O finally gave up yelling. Now it just became a sing song of the TO trying to reach Control and Control trying to reach the TO. As I reached the edge of the radio range, the last statement came from Control:
"Extra Board TO ________, 95 St Dispatcher says to forget about that move and report back to 95 St as soon as possible."
As a wild guess, I would say she was taken out of service upon arrival at 95 St.
Look out A division, fresh meat over the transom. :)
No,No,No We don't need one more person to mess up a good running road.
Heh. Just checking for a pulse there. We all know A division would chew her up in one late run. Headways a bit different. :)
I never really liked the IRT much (living in the Bronx and making all whistle stops can do that) but the railroad itself runs some mighty impressive times compared to the bucolic "B" divisions.
(We all know A division would chew her up in one late run. Headways a bit different. :)
You know It! If she operated any IRT line she would have had a T.S.S taking over by 42 Street Grand Central or Times Square.
If your over 3 Minutes at times you better have a reason.
As far as service the IRT really is impressive. During the day the No.1 runs every 5 Minutes
No.2 Line every 8 Minutes
No.3 Line every 8 Minutes
Nos. 2,3 EXP every 4 Minutes
No.4 Line every 5 Minutes
No.5 Line every 8 to 10 Minutes
Nos. 4,5 EXP every 3 to 5 Minutes
No.6 Line every 4 Minutes 8 Min out of 177 and 8 Min out of Pel
No.7 Line every 4 Minutes or less
As you can see if lets say this famous T/O was on the No.6 an ran lets say 8 Minutes late by 125 Street she would have 2 trains right behind.
Peek Rush Hours is even more interesting
No.1/9 every 4 Minutes
No.2 Every 6 Minutes
No.3 Every 6 Minutes
Nos.2/3 EXP every 3 Minutes
No.4 Every 4 Minutes
No.5 Every 4 Minutes
Nos. 4/5 EXP Every 2 Minutes
No.6 Every 2 to 4 Minutes To Pelham Bay every 4 to 8 Minutes
No.7 Every 3 Minutes or less
And to think ... in the 1960's, they ran 90 second headways ... the IRT may run "toy trains" compared to their bigger cousins, but the IRT never messed around. In that silly "Pelham 123" flick, you could tell that the author of the story actually talked to a line superintendent and got a good feel of how the trainmasters didn't appreciate having to hand out block tickets. :)
Yeah I never wait long for a train on the IRT (A div). But on the Div B, it's a different story.
As far as service the IRT really is impressive. During the day the No.1 runs every 5 Minutes
No.2 Line every 8 Minutes
No.3 Line every 8 Minutes
Nos. 2,3 EXP every 4 Minutes
No.4 Line every 5 Minutes
No.5 Line every 8 to 10 Minutes
Nos. 4,5 EXP every 3 to 5 Minutes
No.6 Line every 4 Minutes 8 Min out of 177 and 8 Min out of Pel
No.7 Line every 4 Minutes or less
It's impressive because of how bad service has become. In the world of the blind the one-eyed man is king. The 1954 service levels were as follows:
No 1 - every 2 minutes (Bway Local and Express - each ran every 4 minutes)
No 2 - every 4 minutes
No 3 - every 4 1/4 minutes (14 tph)
No 4 - every 4 minues
No 5 - every 3 minutes 45 seconds (16 tph)
Nos. 4, 5 combined every 1 minute 53 seconds (32 tph)
No 6 - every 4 minutes from Pel and every 4 1/4 minutes from 177 for a combined total of 29 tph
No 7 - every 1 minute 40 seconds (36 tph)
BTW in 1949 they ran 30 tph on the No 6 with all trains originating at Pelham. The combined No 5/3rd Ave El service at E 241st St was 25 tph. They also managed to relay 12 tph from the 155th St Shuttle at 167th St along with running 15 tph through service.
It's a good thing that the NYCBOT published these figures. Otherwise, we would have to believe the TA's "you never had it so good - ain't we great" mantra.
Were those running times before or after trains and platform lengths were extended?
That is, if you run 10 car trains at 8 minute intervals or 5 car trains at 4 minute intervals you are providing the same level of service (other than increased average waiting time -- which increases from 2 to 4 minutes).
CG
For the 1954 Service Levels.
All expresses on the Lex and Bway-7th Ave lines were 10 cars long. All 10 cars platformed at all stations - the same as today.
The Bway-7th Ave locals were 5 cars long. However these locals started at 137th/Bway or 145th/Lenox.
The Lex locals were in transition. They averaged 7.53 cars per train.
The Flushing trains were 9 cars long.
For the 1949 Service Levels.
All expresses on the Lex and Bway-7th Ave were 10 cars long and all cars platformed at all stations.
The West Side locals were 5 cars long; the East Side locals were 7 cars long.
The Flushing trains were 9 cars long.
The Third Ave El trains to City Hall were 7 cars long; the Third Ave El trains to South Ferry were 5 to 7 cars long. Each branch ran 2 minute 52 second headways. The combined reverse flow rate was 42 tph.
Thanks for the messages on 1954 IRT service levels. I'd like to add that no matter what anybody thinks when they still had the original equipment on time performance was excellent. Better than what we had in the 70's with the 1949-62 equipment that was already pretty sick.
The old IRT fleet moved right along and moved fast right up to the end. And there weren't many dropouts. [Maybe somebody will prove my youthful fantasies that still live wrong]
Would be intresting to see what BMT service levels were in the same period. It was pretty dandy having 3 express services over the bridge 24/7.[ I think they were 24/7 but not sure]
Would be intresting to see what BMT service levels were in the same period.
Why don't you check for yourself.
They ran 1 more Broadway express in 1949. The Broadway locals were 7 cars long in 1949. The Flushing-Astoria Shuttle ran 12 tph, each with 6 cars.
It was pretty dandy having 3 express services over the bridge 24/7.
You always had 3 services, but they were not always expresses. The Brighton Express ran M-Sat daytime hours only. The Brighton Local ran via the bridge, when there was no Brighton Express service and via the tunnel at other times.
You should also note that both the West End and the Culver did not go to Coney Island during rush hours. They used El car shuttles for the outer reaches.
I do remember that all Brighton service was local nights and Sundays. I guess my thought was express on Broadway-Manhattan and over the bridge, with the Brighton local via tunnel when express service ran.
Also remember some shortlines like West End and Broadway-Brooklyn. Just wondered how headways compared ut thanks for your help...think I have all under control.
>>> if you run 10 car trains at 8 minute intervals or 5 car trains at 4 minute intervals you are providing the same level of service (other than increased average waiting time -- which increases from 2 to 4 minutes).
I really have to disagree that your examples are the same level of service. You might move the same number of passengers in a 24 hour period, but doubling the average waiting time, and thus increasing the average trip time is providing less service to the customers. What makes rapid transit "rapid" is the short headways. Otherwise you have a commuter rail line.
Tom
"What makes rapid transit 'rapid' is the short headways. Otherwise you have a commuter rail line."
Only a New Yorker could dismiss 8 or 10 minute headways as commuter rail. :^)
Atsa right, boss ... under 3 minute headways is rabid transit, anything over 8 is commuter rail and headways beyond 20 minutes is intercity bus. :)
I love the IRT I know it as well as the back of my hand. The only line I really don't like is the No.7 Line I hate almost everything about that line. My favorite line is the No.5 Line. The lines I see the most are the No.1,2,6 Lines.
I was born in Riverdale before it got built up, moved down the hill in the late 50's, early 60's ... 231st was my home stop. The #1 was ... well ... the slow boat to china. I'd take the Central to and from Marble Hill stop when I could afford it or would walk down to 207th for the IND in decent weather. Number one was truly a slow boat with so many stops and in the summer, it was hotter than hooker in hellmouth. But 96th to 42nd sorta made up for it all. Pity 59th is a local stop on the 7th Ave. :)
when you say "central" do you mean NYCRR? as in present day MNRR? please tell me im right.
Ayup ... used to be a real railroad once upon a time. Then it became the "PennCentral" and well ... the IRT was a better option. :)
yea, any idea when the Glenwood power plant shut down? Boy its a hellouva place to visit now, I tell ya
No, but it was probably somewhere around the time that PennCentral took over. It was a LONG while ago ...
we have to go back there. maybe get that asbestos bucket too.
yum - hazmat materials!
you best believe it, but for our saftey and saftey of others we must steal the DOT placards we found in LIC and stick on bucket (drive saftely) btw is that ROW active?
I think i might have an abestos warning sign laying around. I know i got a lead paint sign from willy b...
that ROW is the LIRR montauk branch (doubt they named if after the steel plant though). I'm not sure how active it is these days west of fresh pond where all the freight is at. perhaps they run the yard switcher from hunters point coach yard down to jamacia at the start and end of it's work days... other than perhaps that and the occasionally diesel detour, that section is quite unused. the NY&A branches off up to sunnyside just a bit east of the steel warehouse - that's what that other bridge was to the right when we came out next to that car repair place.
When I was in the IRT, my favorites were the 4,5 and 7. I liked the 7 because it's outside for a big chunk of the ride (fortunately, I now have the J for that), I liked the 5 because of the jobs and the express runs, and the 4 for two reasons. One because they were the only trains with transverse cabs at the time, and two because I love to hear the "whirrrr" of the R62's. Of all the lines, I miss working the 4.
I like the No.5 because it is a nice run and yes the jobs are good over there. I like the No.6 second because of the R142A's and R62A's. I like the No.1 as well because the day goes fast. Most don't like the No.1 because you have 2 hours cab time.
The reasons I don't like that No.7 line. 1. 5 Trips in and out 2. No time for lunch 3. The riders just love holding the doors even if there are trains behind you. 4. Supervison over there are too much.. 5. The way some of the crews are there act like they own the crewroom and look like they try to get outsiders in trouble.
The outside views are nice but not worth the headaches that come with it.
>>>>>>>>>>>The reasons I don't like that No.7 line. 1. 5 Trips in and out 2. No time for lunch 3. The riders just love holding the doors even if there are trains behind you. 4. Supervison over there are too much.. 5. The way some of the crews are there act like they own the crewroom and look like they try to get outsiders in trouble.
It never used to be like that when I was there. The 7 line used to be a senior line with 3 trippers, plenty of 4 trippers, and even a couple of 2 1/2 trippers. The supervision on the 7 has always been a bit over the top.
As far as the trouble crews, don't pay them any mind. They'll get themselves in plenty of trouble without any help.
About two years ago, all the 2 trippers became 3, all the three trippers became 4 and everything else became 5 trips. How do you think they upped the service?
The best TO job on the 7 was 202U - you double-ended a couple of wash/lay-ups, maybe made one short move (usually to set up the cars for track testing) and then one trip: 111St put-in, local to TSQ, returning as a local to Willets Point, lay-up the train and leave. Silly thing paid 10h47m
And 202U was picked by a T/O with a file number of minus 6.
mmmmmm, is the guys' file number over 137?
I don't know who has it now, but the two picks when I was extra, it was owned by two different guys, each of whom retired before the pick was over. I've actually worked this job 2 or 3 times, but that was last summer.
What does 5 trips pay? 11hrs?
8 to 8 1/2 hours. If you're lucky, you'll get 9.
That really is not too bad. I forgot that is only around a 30 min ride. That would be less cab time than 3 on the J and about the same as 4 on the E or L.
Anyone know how long in years it takes to pick a 4 tripper?
It's probably changed now but I worked 301 job sometimes and it paid 8:02 for five trips. Yuck. 4 were local and one was a half of an express. This was when the Queens Blvd. viaduct was under repair. This kind of job you remember. I have to thank my daughter for getting me out of this job one day, she was born.
And the TA didn't fire you for pulling the pin that day? Those were the salad days, my friend.
...are you the Eggman?
Nah, they only gave him 10 days.
...no, I'm not.
7-301 has changed now. Big time. 4 trips, 4 expresses. Cant beat that on the 7.
Im 100% agreement with everything you said about the #7 line. That line is a workhorse.
You hate the flushing line, eh?
welll...
.|.. ..|.
>>> .|.. ..|. <<<
The response of a truly weak intellect.
Tom
Just for that remark...
.|.. | ..|.
ROTFLMAO
I wonder what would happen if that T/O were on any of the A division express lines. HA HA HA. 4 train T/O's dont like slow drivers neither do 2 line drivers. That T/O might have been cooked if so.
>>> 4 train T/O's dont like slow drivers neither do 2 line drivers. That T/O might have been cooked if so. <<<
I dunno about that. The 2 is a very slow line. This "blind" T/O may have some friends on the 2 line.
Maybe, at night when it's a local line, a true competor for longest line with the A. How about the 1 line?
wow... I could imagine the torture of operating the A line from 207 to far rockaway local... ouch, how do the real TOs do it?
Simple they dont, or all of them would be in a crazy house. Maybe those who choose it like it cause it's peaceful. I bet its a nice sight going over broad channel at night. The only highlight.
Christopher Rivera
but doesn't the A go local at night? in like brooklyn or something? sure it excludes manhattan, but it's still a lot.
yes, Local all the way under Fulton Street to Liberty towards Lefferts BLVD or Far Rockaway
The A runs local from beginning to end -- Manhattan and Brooklyn alike -- at night, filling in for the C.
So how do TO put up with that? And how long does a trip like that take from beginning to end?
According to the timetable, total running time on the A local from 207th to Mott is about 103 minutes.
Back when the C ran local from Bedford Park to Rockaway Park, that was probably worse.
It really is not so bad except for the getting to far rock or 207 to do the job.
Two trips is almost always a penalty job, which is nice. G.O's usually only make the job better with skipped stops and the A 'owns' most of those tracks at that hour. The E to Whitehall is a hellacious job, spoiling perfectly good three trip E jobs with lots of extra cab time.
It is not just the job it's what can happen to it. From what I hear the line pick on th M has extra work on almost all jobs.
>>>>>>>From what I hear the line pick on th M has extra work on almost all jobs.
You heard right. All of the M jobs starting out of Met on the AM's make three trips. Usually 2 to 9Av and 1 to Bay Pkwy, with a few making 2 to BPY and 1 to 9Av.
The "cab time" on the M actually is more than 2 round trips on the 2,F and even the R.
There are a couple of PM jobs which do 1 to Ninth Ave. and 2 to Bay Pkwy. Hell, I have financial goals! Guess it beat doing 4 on the E!
I remember a T/O who use to drive the C from Bedford Park to Far Rockaway. I remember how he use to talk about delays that make the trip even longer. I remember hiom saying that one of the only great things about that ride is when you come out of the portal in Queens and when you go out towards the rockaways, for some time it's not like you're even in New York City. Then you come back and you're in the city again. From the Noise of the City to peace and quiet. Also during the summer he said he got a good tan lol.
Christopher Rivera
P.S. I wonder if the pay was good for driving that line?
Pay was the same everywhere...hourly rate. Seniority bought you better jobs by how much cab time you had, stress or lack thereof comparing fast lines to slow with many curves, timers, etc. Unless a job that was convenient to you was a workhorse and you still picked it...whatever worked but the money was the same except for penalty runs which ran into overtime.
Things have sure slowed. IIRC the A 207-Mott was 89 minutes and the E from l79-Mott was about 95 minutes. Before I forget the A running time was mid day when it was a local along Fulton; the time for the E was express on Fulton--rush hours only. Maybe my memory is bad but I'm sure those were the running times.I'm referring to late 60's early 70's.
A to Euclid: 59, to Lefferts 68; we ran trains then...if you got one that RAN.
In case you didn't notice, I'm referring to the overnight A, when it runs local all the way -- CPW, 8th Avenue, and Fulton.
Usually with track gangs, it'll take 1:50 from end to end.
>>>>>So how do TO put up with that?
It all depends on your C/R. If he's fast, it's a breeze. But if he's slow, then it's pure hell.
The 1 on the midnights is 50 minutes each way; a good crew can make it in 48. Allowing for GOs, you can add somewhere between 3 to 8 minutes.
GO's on the 1 typically send it express. Shouldn't running time go down, not up? At night, sending the 1 express doesn't even produce merging delays, since the 2 is in the same boat.
Sorry, should have said track gangs. Was typing without thinking.
Between 96th and Chambers the 2 is most certainly not slow.
The 2 is a slow line because of the line itself, not the operators.
She wouldn't have much friends on the No.2 Line they have more fast T/O's then anything. Its just a slow line because of all the timers,GO's and trains always getting put in front of it.
From what I'm hearing about this T/O, I wouldn't want her punching line-ups for the IRT express lines. Trying stuff like this around Nostrand Junction (a fun house during the AM rush) will stop service on both the Lex and 7Avs., virtually crippling the city.
Aw man, I was on the R today, it's too bad I didn't get to see this blind TO. Went to a hideous ballgame at Keyspan Park at Coney Island(where the minor league Brooklyn Cyclones play).
Too bad, that would've made an interesting trip, to say the least. What time did you leave her at 36th Street?
It was either 1:30 or 2:40 - I forget which trip it was.
Sounds more Deaf than blind to me
This is some very complicated radio messages for my 15 year old non-subway-working brain... are you allowed to leave your train like that though? Like when you went over to the R from your W (I assume you were the W)
Somehow I suspect that since it managed to get the wayward operator (let me phrase that as "apparently" lest I get disclaimed) on the horn, I have a feeling Alex won't get written up for that "indiscretion." :)
One of the realities of being a "road warrior" is that you HAVE to try to look out for each other and Alex did the right thing here ... I take it our famous TO will be working the Grand Street soon - there, about the only thing that'll matter much is remembering to change ends at eash stop. Heh.
DISCLAIMER: This story is hearsay - I did not witness nor hear on the radio these events!
An extra TO who has been working the Grand Street Shuttle was taken out of service last Thursday. It seems he had been working on the north end of the train and when the CR closed down to dezone, he would be nice and re-open the doors from his position (The door control panel is right behind him - not much exertion on his part). This particular evening, he was working on the south end and did the same thing. YOU CAN SEE THIS COMING, CAN'T YOU? This resulted in the doors opening on the wrong side of the train. While no one got hurt and the doors were immediately shut, the TSS who happened to be there removed the TO from service, although not for opening the doors on the wrong side. Any takers on the reason?
How bad is being taken out of service? What does it involve?
Isn't the shuttle double ended? I could never undersatnd that shortcut, How much time do you really save.
The female from your story was not taken out of service they let her make her last trip but control tore her a new one on the phone.
I had a problem last week too. I called it in, got into a screaming match with the tower but got a pass from talking to control even though we were 15 minutes late AFTER getting a bit of a run at the end. If you have a problem and it is not your fault and it does not bang another t/o or c/r in you are CRAZY not to call it in.
Not really being too familiar with the shuttle's actual operation, I'd have to saty when he re-opened, he was not on the boards.
Not really being too familiar with the shuttle's actual operation, I'd have to saty when he re-opened, he was not on the boards or he forgot to point.
Working out of title? Not OPTO qualified?
Close enough. Having come from the open-competitive, he had never been qualified to open doors at all while in service
Something about NOT OPENING UP IF
YOU DO NOT SEE 'THE BOARD'... ???
How necessary is this self check and how heavily is it enforced?
I don't know about this,
but every Japanese Motorman (when I was in Japan in the '60s) had to salute the signal before leaving the station.
He pointed to it (with his white gloved hand) and yelled something in Japanese before he opened his throttle every time.
Elias
It's the Japanese "sign of safety." It means that that the motorman has stopped and considered if it was safe to go after receiving indication, but before starting the train. They still do it today.
Knowing our infamous TO... she'll (if it is a she) end up somewhere in the middle of the train...
I think this is a differnet T/O. This one has dark hair, I'd think.
The Blind T/O is a redhead or blonde depending on the label on the bottle.
There are two of them now?
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
<<>>
I could just think what that Conductor must have been saying at the end of the day to his fellow crew members.
Here in the A division. There is a story going around about a brand new C/R who is real slow. The story is that one day while working the 1 during the PM, the C/R arrived at both terminals 14 minutes late. Just like this T/O, Control was calling her and no response. It got so bad that T/O "booked off" the next day upon finding out who the C/R would be. Now this C/R(Ive seen this person) is now on the AM's mostly on the deuce. Great move crew office......
Last week, I'm coming home from work. This is one day when it was 15 billion degrees outside. A redbird 2 train pulls in, and as it sweeps by I notice one car is totally empty. I correctly assume this is because there's no AC. I get on and not only is there no AC, but the heat is on! YES! I swear. This was a major malfunction. There were actually some maniacs sitting in the car just to avoid standing. It was at least 120-130 degrees in that car, no exaggeration. This also happened on a R-44 once. How does such a malfunction occur?
""This also happened on a R-44 once. How does such a malfunction occur? "" & other cars like the R-142s scrappers !!!!
The irt redbird gets blamed first. Did riders of the r12s r17s r22-21 complain & bellyache as much as some of U do now ?
But dont you see ??....... once again TAG THE REDBIRD FIRST ... You are making my point very well !! Thank you !!!
If you'll look at my previous posts, I LOVE the redbirds. I wasn't complaining. I was just posting an interesting topic. No one loves the redbirds like me! I'm sure this has happened on many other trains. If you don't believe me, go here.
I remember this one... I like the redbirds too... I dun see how people have things against them. Ok, I do, but I still like them. It's the no AC thing that kinda gets to me redbird or not. I was on a R32 last week and the entire 2 car set had no AC. How? I dunno. I saw people at the end of the car at the door asking the people if the next car had AC. It didn't. The reason why I stayed in the car with no AC was because my friend wanted to stay. After she got off... into the next car with AC i went. This also brings up another thing, is it legal for you to cross cars on R32s, 40s, 42s, redbirds, 62s, 38s? i think I got all of em :)
Except on the 75-footers (R-44, R-46, R-68, R-68A), passing between cars is legal (well, except where there's a cab in the way). Hanging out between cars (taken literally or not) is subject to a fine.
my apology
All car models do it once in a while even the R-142. I remember in the winter going on to an R-68 and there was nobody in that car, no sign of anything wrong so I went in and I quickly realized my mistake....the A/C was on!!!! I got on at 59 Street on the D. It was 30 degrees out side so just imagine what it was in the train.
Redbirds are older so it happens more often, thats why. It's just being pointed out. There are alot of malfunctions no model is unaffected. The R-142 will have it's day.
Of course it's you talking about discrimination...argh, get over it!
??
I second that... ??
A stuck heat contactor - and the conductor didn't think to hit the floor heat circuit breaker.
Notice: The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
Gotta better redbird story.I was riding a Woodlawn redbird on a hot day. The train was heading back uptown from Utica Ave, The train just pulled into Utica, It wa hot beyond belief in the car.I talked to the T/O. I said man its hot as hell in here no Ac huh? He put his hand to the vent, nothing coming out! he went to the back of the first car, open the cab door, and turned a switch or something, he hollered feel anything? I said yeah it was blowing cool air!!!!! He came back and put his hand up to the vent up the cool air was really pouring into the cab.Ther T/O looked at me and said some dumb ass didnt turn on the A/C.We both cracked up and the train pulled out of Utica!!
LOL!
I wish I'd brought a couple of eggs and a frying pan on my 7 train this morning. I didn't get breakfast, and I could have turned the discomfort into an opportunity.
;-D Andrew
I picked up today at Babbages Software a Transit Operations Simulator "Traffic Giant" by Macmillian Software Copyright 2001.
It allows for operation And/Or Ownership of Bus, Subway, Light Rail/Tram & Commuter Rail Lines. I have not yet played it, but if you have played it please post comments here.
More Info available at
www.macmilliansoftware.com
www.trafficgiant.com
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I have to look into this!
I played this before, it came out a LONG time ago, like a year or so... i played the demo and I didn't like it too much. It was great, but I only made the routes for busses and it's not that interesting. It's like simcity but you only do the transportation. Correct me if I'm wrong. I want to hear your opinions on this game too :)
This game is cool. I got it free-after-rebate at CompUSA about a month and a half ago. I only played it once so far, but it is fun. You make the bus routes and then assign different model buses at different costs. I only played the first simulation. You can also add light-rail and other transportation modes. Overall, a great game for a Transportation Engineer, and other people as well.
It has a poor financial model, no growth model, and you can't rotate your view to see the other side of town. It's a pretty simple, one-dimensional game. Of course I'm addicted.
-Hank
I just downloaded the demo. I don't want to damn it in too big a hurry, but my computer locked up on reboot and I had to do a cold boot in which the Scandisk took distressingly long.
Then I started it up. Took very long. Nice graphics but not very intuitive. I had all kinds of screen artifacts. It gave me a hard time going through setup screens and ultimately locked up and won't let me close it.
This is on a Dell Pentium II 400MHz w/about 2GB remaining on hard drive running Windows SE. 128MB SDRAM, nothing else running except IE6. Diamond Fire GL 1000 Pro video adapter.
I'm used to ROller Coaster Tycoon which, while way older, handles itself very nicely, has lots of scenarios plus pretty music.
BTW, for any Carousel buffs, RCT with the expansion packs has some VERY nice recordings of mechanical organs which you can't really appreciate in the game, but if you just copy and rename them to WAV files (IIRC) they're a real trip.
I have the games and i like it. a couple of weeks ago , I ask for a map editor for the game in the message board, and one of the developers said they will release it for down for free.
OK guys in Astoria, tell me the truth. Is there really a noticeable time-savings with the "W" peak express into Manhattan from Queens?? By the time the "W" gets to Queensboro in the morning rush, are the crowds equal to "N" local crowds?? Please let me know, I'm curious. I always felt that all Astoria line stations could benefit from 2 lines making all stops. I recall that when the "RR" ran to Astoria, there was 4-6 minute headways into Manhattan during the peak Am rush (on a good day!!). Tony
4-6 minutes? I know I was only a kid when the R was in Astoria, but I don't remember them coming that quickly during rush hour.
I saw the express benefits those who use Ditmars, Astoria and 30 Ave stations. Unless I know there's an N right behind the W, I take a W if it comes first and ride to Astoria. If a train is leaving Ditmars Manhattan-bound as I get off the train, I hop over to the other side and take a one station ride as I have seen many others do. I don't know if it is worth it to take it to Broadway....it all depends on if you know that the train behind the W in Manhattan is an R or something like that. But I like the Express...sure it only saves me probably a minutes after all the walk/ride back, but hey it's another minute that I can be doing something else instead of traveling.
=)
I do notice in the AM when I exit an Astoria bound W at QBP, people still don't get on even thought he C/R is say "All N stops to Astoria". They need to say that in Spanish I think.
No, they don't need to say it in spanish... german, russian, polish, chinese or any other language. If they don't know what's going where, that's their trouble! let ehm hang out on the platform all day! BAH!
Thanks guys for your feedback. And to Astoria Al, yes, on a good day, the "RR" came every 4 minutes from Astoria in the AM. If you stood at 60-Lex at the height of the AM rush and timed the arrivals from Queens, it was 2 minute headways ie:
8:30 RR
8:32 N to Coney Island
8:34 RR
8:36 N to Whitehall
and so on...
The R-32's ruled (8 cars mind you!!), and ALL trains ran via. Broadway local southbound in the AM rush. The PM rush was the opposite, all local Northbound. That was the pattern from 1975-1986.
Tony
I use the Broadway stop. I very much appreciate the Astoria 'W' Express because it cuts down the crowds on 'N' trains. Yes, noticably. In the evenings, I will sometimes take the 'W' all the way to Ditmars and back-track to Broadway. Unfortunately, all 'W's are R-68s, so no railfan window for the express ride.
My wife uses the Broadway line in Manhattan to 14th Street, however, and she tells me that "express" is a misnomer there. Especially during the evening rush. She has taken the 'W' or 'Q' uptown from Union Sq. and says she has sat on the express tracks and watched "several" 'N' and 'R' trains whiz by on the local because of the bottleneck at 57th Street . This is understandable, since 'N', 'R' and 'W' trains all must fight for one track to 5th Av., Lex Av. and Queens, while the 'Q' further gums up the works by having to turn around at 57th.
I have spoken to a couple of T/Os who say that the tower operators are still not used to all the new service, and that they even have trouble with the turnarounds at the Ditmars Blvd. 'N' and 'W' terminous.
IMHO, it would have made more sense to send the 'Q' train through the 63rd St. tunnel to the Queens IND, that way you would have the 'R' and 'Q' serving the IND and the 'W' and the 'N' serving Astoria and less of a bottleneck at 57/7th. This probably didn't happen due to yard considerations and equipment shortages.
All-in-all, I think, as far as the new service on the Astoria Line, the 'W' express is a hit. In midtown Manhattan, however, it appears that the express tracks are simply a passing siding!
(All-in-all, I think, as far as the new service on the Astoria Line, the 'W' express is a hit. In midtown Manhattan, however, it appears that the express tracks are simply a passing siding! )
You like the Astoria Express? Then counterbalance your loud neighbors by being in favor of the extension to LaGuardia (and, in my scenario, on to Flushing and College Point). Do that, and when (if?) the bridge is fixed it would still make sense to send two services up to Astoria, the N and the Q.
I'm all for the LaGuardia extension. Of course, I don't live on the streets it would run along/over/under. Even so, call me "a YIMBY." Being in favor of mass transit alternatives, I would still be for it, even if my own street were in a state of construction for years on end. I fear that would be a minority view, however.
(I'm all for the LaGuardia extension. Of course, I don't live on the streets it would run along/over/under. Even so, call me "a YIMBY.")
I have friends in Astoria. You can barely hear the train one block away. Everyone along the existing ROW moved in or bought after the railroad was already there. Someone should tell them to shut up. As for the two residential blocks adjacent to the extension, yes they would be hurt. So pay them off, and get on with it.
One of many reasons not to vote for Vallone.
I don't know about it saving much time, but it cuts down on the crowd severely, both in the AM and PM. I honestly don't much care that the W goes by my stop.
Also, if there's a delay in Ns, at least during the afternoon, they seem pretty good about running any Ws that come along local.
Just to add more fuel to the redbird fire.
I come back from a picnic in SI Sat Eve, on the 7 PM boat (DOT needs new ferry boats, BTW). Walk to the Green, and get downstairs just in time to see the 1930 Green (#5 train) pull in. I hit the ground running, since I came in through the old - style kiosk (no access to the Uptown platforms from there). I make it in just before the doors close, so I'm good for the trip, right?
Wrong!!! As soon as it moves, I find out that train (R-26s, 28s, and 29GEs) didn't like me. While trying to pass through the cars, I get trapped in the path of an end door. Then the end doors get stuck on two other cars. When slowing down at Wall St, I nearly get thrown through one other end door and just manage to grab onto a standee bar. That happened to me again when the T/O slowed for the timer at Fulton. When finnaly stopping at Fulton, I get thrown ONTO the end door of #7861. All beat up, I crawl onto #7860, dodging passengers in the process. #7860 wasn't kind to me either; it kept rocking and swaying all the way up the Lex. And if I didn't grab onto the metal strap when we rounded the Astor Pl. "S" curve, I would've gotten thrown off the train!
As for an extra treat, this past evening, I get off the #4 at 125th, as ordered by the Station C/R overseeing the GO there. The next train that pulls in was a #5. Guess what the consist was made of? You guessed it! Same cars, with #7860 at the point. Wisely, I keep my distance, hoping not to get dragged into the Third Av. Tunnel.
I would hate to see what happens if an R62 doesn't like you.
A couple of months ago, I was riding the Grand Central Shuttle (3 track). Me and my dad just make it aboard the crowded train. But when the doors close, they close on my head! If that wasn't enough, I was almost knocked to the floor (which would have took a lot of the businessmen on board with me) when the train lurched forward towards Times Sq.
As you can see, been there, done that.
i really enjoyed this thread .....lol!!
Were you leading with your head or was your head trailing the rest of you? I ask this because most humans are wider at the shoulders than at the head. Therefore, I'd expect that if you were standing erect, your shoulders would have been hit before your head. Of course, by erect, I'm talking about the vertical alignment of your spine and by head, I'm referring to that which sits atop of your neck. However, if by erect and by head we are discussing other areas of your anatomy, I feel your pain. HAVE THE REDBIRDS ATTACKED AGAIN?
Notice: The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
They were running `birds on the shuttle? I thought it has been all R-62s for a while.
It's still the Redbirds' fault. It's always the Redbirds' fault.
Yeah, they're trying to pass on their contempt for the passenger to those impressionable young R-62As. Where are the parents??
R-62As you mean? No, the 'birds were taken off the shuttle a long time ago. But on an interesting note, the cars were from Livonia, where there are also Rebirds stored for #5 rush hour put ins (anyone driving down NY 27/Linden Blvd. can see this.) Thus, I wonder if the R-62As there are starting to pick up the bad habits of those older wrecks.
That's what I thought, but from the thread title and the original post, it sounded like a rouge train of Redbirds had taken the R-62A's place on Track 3 and decided to take on prisoners on the shuttle. :-)
On the shuttle, my shoulders and head were erect (and not other areas, thank God). It was just that on that particular run, it was very crowded, and I had just made it onto the train. So I was relegated to the doorways, where I got the abuse.
It seems as though that particular married pair of R-28s (Car # 7860-7861) doesn't like you very much. It seems to have wanted to come back and haunt you.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Strange, I have been a victim of this "Redbird Attack"...Just yesterday as I tried to go to the next car, the storm door nearly took my hand off! I opned the storm door, and next thing you know the door closes quickly. Luckily my hand wasn't lost...
Maybe some of those Redbirds know their time is almost up and they're rebelling.:-)
I think that I can agree with you after reading some of the posts. They have had enough and want a decent retirement.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Maybe you shoud stay away from the redbirds. Im starting to think the redbirds are troble prone.
Re: the attack of the killer tomatoes!!
( do U watch too much TV?? )
How appropro....
-Hank
I am going to sleep, this insanity has gone far enough, maybe for the saftey of most, subtalk should be shut down at these hours, Well it was fun, Good Morning everyone.
Nice, good news story from the depths.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ray Sanchez writing something positive about the subway? Uh-oh; I must have overslept... this can't be reality. :)
It's very nice to know there are still good people out there.
WARNING BRIGHTON EXP BOB and SEA BEACH FRED RIDING THE WAMTA TOGETHER. METRO WILL NEVER BE THE SAME. NEXT STOP NYC THIS WEEK
Well - better them than NYC
We will be there this week
I'll alert the Pentagon.
We were there already
And, Bob, since you're just down the road from America's First Downtown Streetcar Museum, why not try to stop in next weekend. Here's the link to our website: a href="http://www.baltimoremd.com/streetcar/">Baltimore Streetcar Museum
If you and Fred can, e-mail me and let me know.
I wonder if interesting things will happen when #1 Brighton Exp Bob ride together with #4 Sea Beach Fred on the southern division of the BMT this week? Then don't leave me out since I'm #3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff. Somehow the Manhattan Bridge flip, flop is bringing out all of the BMT fans.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Want to find out. We will meet anyone at Nathans at 12.00NOON on Thursday 16 Aug 2001. First we eat then we ride. Join the fight, We meant fun.
No after lunch you'll have to go over to the Carrousel and reach out for the brass ring ... that is if Jeff has anything to say about it. Also Fred may want to visit those other attractions on rails while you are in the area ...
Enjoy !
Mr t__:^)
He will ride the Cyclone, while I watch
I'm not expecting to come down to Coney Island this week and I also have some bad news to pass along concerning the B&B Carousell. Some of you might be aware that the operator (Mike Saltzstein) passed away in the wee hours of the 4th of July of an apparent heart attack so the B&B Carousell was closed for the 4th of July. It reopened the following weekend (Saturday July 7th & Sunday 8th) with a different person who is now operating it. Sorry to say I've also had a rough time in dealing with Mike Saltzstein's death as he did mean something to me so it has been a rough summer for me emotionally though I'm feeling much better now than I did for most of July. I'm also going to mention a condition that I was born with to some of you in an E-mail which has affected me all my life and I consider myself quite lucky that it isn't very serious in my instance but, I know of someone else who had it quite badly and is still having servere problems with it.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I picked up this thread by accident...not that you guys don't interest me...just time...I'm curious whether the man Mike Saltzstein of the B & B Carousel is the same person I'm thinking of...maybe not.Back in the early 50's lets say 53 when I was 10 there was a man about 40 I'd guess who appeared to be the owner with a young blond "Kid" maybe 17-18 working for him but I assumed it was his son. The older man was there until the early 70's IIRC then there was only the blond guy who remained until I left the city in 1977.We talked once in a while...never became friends but we knew each other.
I'd guess the man I'm thinking of would be about 67-70 now and wonder if he was the deceased. Or perhaps the B&B had long sinced changed hands. My grandfather said years ago they [owners] looked German so the name could be German or Jewish. Before I was 12 the older man argued over the fare with my grandpa because I was tall for my age..I remember it well. But that's water under the bridge.
Not really important info but guess it will close another chapter in my life...
Mike Saltzstein was 60 years of age when he died during the early morning hours of the 4th of July. He had worked at the B&B Carousell since at least the early 1970s and quite likely even the mid to late 1960s. Before that he worked at another carousel and had started out on another ride at anearlier date. He had worked at Coney Island since the late 1950s.
Jeff Alterman (a.k.a. #3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff)
RIP....
Thank you for the info. It seeems you had a real connection to this man.
Peace,
ANDEE
...and you have my sympathy on your loss.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for the sympathy. I'm also going to E-mail you a message about a condition that I have and I may post it on "Sub Talk" in a day or two.
#3 West End Jeff
Fred and I also sympayhize, but we are still going.
Have a good time at Coney Island. Believe or not I can play a good number of the selections that I've heard on the organ of the B&B Carousell on the piano. I'm also going to E-mail a condition that I was born with #1 Brighton Exp Bob.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I will be in NYC Aug 21-28 visiting my mom in Sheepshead Bay and look forward to riding the new Q train! Sorry I will miss you guys.
ScottinSF
I'm sure Fred remembers the great big smile on your face as you rode that carousel last year ... it was almost as big as Fred's smile when he got off the Cyclone.
Nothing in this life lasts forever, but going for the good stuff and savoring it helps us get through it.
Have you two guys tried for a couple seats to the Coney Island Met's ?
Might be some bleacher seats available. Enjoy !
Mr t__:^)
The Cyclones are doing better than the parent club, it seems.
We won t have time since Fred wants to do some rail fanning, but their T Shirts and caps are on our shopping list
He'll love their cap, I'm sure.
You can always join the shouting match and make it a Brighton-Sea Beach-West End free-for-all.
I can just picture all this going on at a Cyclones game.:-)
Oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
rats I will be there to celebrate my 50th birthday 11-3-51- !!!
the Q is one of the lines i want to re-tape!! ......lol!!
Please do it during daylight hours I have the first one, but too mucvh at night
I already have it done ... from 21st / Queensbridge to Brighton Beach (before the Flip) or from Brighton Beach to 57th / 7th (and extended via N line to Astoria) on the first weekday of the Flip .....
--Mark
From the letters that I have read, and opinions of other subway buffs I made major changes to my plan and I need your opinion.
The 8 line will be known as the H line
The 10 Line will be known as the K Line
The 11 Line will be known as the T Line
The 12 Line will be known as the U Line
The 13 Line will be known as the P Line (if W is available after the Manhattan Bridge watch how fast I will replace the P!)
This is so that people dont think the train lines are A division.
I have made a route change the 11/K line. It has a new destination:
K Line: Staten Island Mall to Forest Hills, 71 Avenue Queens:
There will be a new Staten Island Rush Hour Express which is the Diamond K
Local in all Boroughs
so to fill in the gap for the Local north of 63nd to reduce congestion on the H Line the Q line will go up Second Avenue to 125 Street
Q Line: Brighton Beach, Brooklyn to 125 Street, Manhattan
Local North on Second Avenue
So what you think?
The P line????
Oh, I could just see it now.
"How do I get to ...........?"
"Well, you go down those stairs and take a P"
What other letter are there out there? The wont you O because it's said it looks like the Q
hey how about X??????
The P line will be known as the X line from now on. Too many to downtown go take a P. So it will be the X.
Looks OK to me (too bad they cleaned up Times Square - the X would have fit in nicely with the "ambiance" back then).
Ever wonder why certain letters are not assigned? I sure there was some thinking on it.
Relax Chris.
Trust me, when I choose the P I knew there were alot of jokes that were coming for it. Then I realized that the X would be a good choice. There are alot of letter that wont be chosen cause they look like other letters or Numbers assigned already. Like I because it looks like 1. Or O cause it looks like Q (dont see how) etc.
Maybe it is time for letter combinations. It has been done before (RJ, QB, QT, NX etc). I don't think we should be "married" to the current single letter.
I was thinking about letter/number combinations but those are more applicable to bus routes.
Y not use why?
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
I was going to use the T,U and X.!ve alreay put it on my track maps.
Well to make the adjustments to plan I had to swtich from letters to numbers. Alot of e-mails said that the numbers were to confusing. Just imagine a 11 Line going along Queens Boulevard or the Q line surrounded by numbers? I created this track map to give opinions. So far I asked alot of T/O friends of mine and they back up the idea. It's nothing against you or your plan.
Our plans are very different, but there will be some similarites. So far this is the only similarity.
I'm just going by what the people want, its the people who will ride this and adjusting this plan to the people is what is important.
P(Enn) Line was planed By the MTA LIRR/NYCTA as a Emergency Line when Amtrak was going to strike in the early 90's. It was going to be Routed NonStop Express From J Level (Lower Level) at Sutphin Blvd/Jamaica Station VIA Broadway BMT El to Chrystie St Connection, Then M-Bridge North tracks to West 4th Street Then Switching to 8th Avenue Tracks Terminating at 34th Street/Pennsyvania Station. Amtrak Owns/Controlls The Tracks/Tunnels from Sunnyside Yard to Pennsyvania Station. If this had happened, How many P Trains would be needed to replace the LIRR Trains to Penn Station From Jamaica?
If you like, I strongly suggest sharing the car models you would like on these routes, seems interesting.
Thats definte. It is apart of the New York City Transit System, it will indeed share any cars.
huh?
Peace,
ANDEE
After riding the R-142's on the #2 for a couple of times I was wondering about something.
The lightup route signs for the #2 only have the Manhattan Express stops. How do they/are they going to handle that in the late hours when the #2 is making local stops in Manhattan? How are the recorded announcements handled or are the C/R going to have to make manual announcements?
There are automatic announcements for the night service, and what happens is the strip map blinks out the light for the station when the train gets there regardless if you run local.
I guess they have no immediate plans to replace those signs with ones that have the local stops listed.
true
It is interesting that during the late nights the R-142 still announces "This is a Bronx or Brooklyn bound 2 EXPRESS train, the next stop is A LOCAL STOP" I guess the technicians were too lazy to program the word "local" on the trains. Then again all it should say is "This is a Bronx bound 2 train, the next stop is 59th Street for example.
I agree 100% -- it's not an express if it's making all stops. The signs also read "7 AV EXPRESS" even when operating local. (So do the Redbirds' rollsigns, but those are a bit less flexible.)
Also, at 59th, "Transfer is available to the A, C, and D trains" -- only the C doesn't run at night. (Neither does the B, which is correctly omitted.) I only rode from 42nd to 86th so I don't know if they make the correct time-based adjustments at Franklin, Atlantic, Borough Hall, Fulton, Park Place, 14th, or 42nd. We all know they haven't been updated with the July 22 changes; I'm surprised (and disappointed) it's such an involved procedure that it's easier to have C/R's announce those stations manually (not that most bother, IME).
Well Sat morning (9:15pm) I was an uptown R142, that was still in late night "mode". When we got to 125th, there was no mention of the M60 bus transfer. At 135th, it was telling us to to transfer to the shuttle bus upstairs even though the 3 was running. At 149-GC, transfer was only available to the 4 train. When we got to E.180St, transfer was available to the 5 train going to "Eastechester-Dyre Ave only"......
well the conductors wasnt paying attention
Why does the R-142 have distinct modes? It would have made more sense, IMO, for each transfer line to be encoded with hours of operation and for the R-142 to automatically determine what to announce given the time. GO's could also be programmed, so (e.g.) the transfer to the E wouldn't be announced when the E isn't running and so passengers could be instructed not to bother trying to transfer to the local when all service is express.
you know how the ta is sometimes
yes there is automatic announcements for local night service. i have witnessed this with 6326-6335 at night on a weekend in june. it did local stop anouncements. 50th st. 59th st. columbus square, 66th st. 72nd street. even though these stations aren't on the map they are said. whatever is on the map only blinks when you pull into the station that is posted on the map. you will see when the train crew master the programming to where it becomes childsplay.
Riding NJTransit's Morris line the other day I noticed that the automated announcements referred to each stop as a "station stop." What's the difference?
Dan
They say that on the LIRR too. Pretty redundant, no?
Also, it's unnecessary. Oh, and it's repetetive and repeats itself.
Andrew Andrew :-) :-)
It's the reason for being or purpose of the Department of Redundancy Department.
Dan
In this case "Station" is a noun and "Stop" is a verb. It is not as redundent as one might think. My guess is that someone wanted to make things grammatically correct.
As opposed to a "terminal stop" such as Hoboken. The train only pauses (remains stationary) at a station stop, then it keeps moving again.
Yeah, but on Amtrak I've heard them say - "Our next and final station stop will be Penn Station." Even better -- "Our last and final station stop . . ."
Penn Station is not a terminal, it is a station - the train can (and usually does) pass through Penn, continuing on in the same direction. This as opposed to Grand Central TERMINAL where trains can only go back the way they came in.
As opposed to the stops while sitting behind another train, I'd guess.
You'll like this one. I once rode Amtrak between Washington and New York. As the train was getting ready to arrive 30th Street Philadelphia, the assistant conductor (he must have been new to making announcements) got a little flustered.
He was supposed to say "This is the only stop in the Philadelphia area." Instead, he stammered, "This will be the only stop, this will be the only stop, THIS WILL BE THE ONLY STOP IN THE STATION!"
Hope this answers your question, LOL.
Michael
It's just ridiculous hypertechnicality. Sure, it's a stop at a station, as opposed to other kinds of stops (delays, emergencies, etc.). But when those kinds are announced (if at all), it's clear they're not "station stops."
It's just ridiculous hypertechnicality. Sure, it's a stop at a station, as opposed to other kinds of stops (delays, emergencies, etc.). But when those kinds are announced (if at all), it's clear they're not "station stops."
I even hear that in the Subway. In fact, one time, a while back, I even heard a conductor use it as a verb! We were going express on the F line to Manhattan for some reason, and we were stopped at what I guess was a red signal at the lower level of Bergen Street station. The conductor said, "This train will not station stop at Bregen Street." It sounded redundant to me, too.
- Lyle Goldman
Okay with the new service northbound Q's I would assume are Quincy Stillwell and Brighton but are the southbounds all Quincy 57th Streets?
What are the southbound's call signs on the radio?
No clue whatsoever. I don't know many of the other call signs either. If anybody has a list of these for all lines, I would appreciate it if it were posted here or emailed to me. Thanks. But if the 6 and 6 exp, and the 7 and 7 exp are the same for each, the Q shouldn't be any different.
I'm guessing you only want the ones from the same terminal, so here. The 7 is not a problem since both terminal are the same whether it's local or express; all you get are some of the dropouts for being weird.
For Q trains:
1234 Q(uincy) 57 & 7 / Stillwell
1239 Q(uincy) 57 & 7 / Brighton Beach
For 6 trains:
1345 Bridge to Pelham
1349 Bridge to Parkchester
For 7 trains:
1345 Times Sq (opposite terminal only given if a dropout)
1511 Times Sq / Willets Pt dropout
What I don't understand is that they ask you for your call "letters" which are actually "numbers". TA math?
No. TA logic.
Logic is pretty flowers that smell bad.
>> Logic is pretty flowers that smell bad. <<
I think the quote was.. Love is a pretty flower that smells bad.
I could be wrong...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Rejoice! rejoice!
My most recent trip through Delancey St on the "F" train gave my heart reason to soar.
The Delancey St mosaics will not be lost. They are being tiled around so that the original will be spared and maintained to identify this station loaded with color and character. The new tile is a very close color match.
On the down side this means that i must put away my Dremel rotary tool and for go removing a mosic in the dead on night.
Now what do I hang on my wall above the mantle?
Maybe a stormdoor from a redbird? A Slant R/40 frontend? A bannister from a closed "el" staircase?
avid
Nowadays that is the standard instructions - restore the station mosaics and finishses to as close to the original as possible (if the original is beyond saving then recreate as close as possible).
That is what is being done on the BMT Broadway line 28th, 23rd, 8th and Prince St stations. The wall tiles will be replaced with new white tiles (the old ones are too faded). The mosaics will be cleaned and fixed (if needed).
I said this before but where the mosaics need repair or replacement - the person(s) who are doing it are very talented.
Yeah, but unfortunately it looks like they are not leaving or replacing the little white-on-black DELANCEY tiles. Hey, they're supposed to be improving the station, which is fine how it is. Why are they making it worse?
- Lyle Goldman
I missed the previous thread.
I assume this is the IND station, what is so special about the mosaics there? And what is so special about the white on black DELANCEY tiles?
I failed to notice that. i was so wrapped up with the large mosaics.
Your right! lets hope they will do the same as they did at 14th St on the 8th Ave . I believe the used decals with the "14th" on the walls , balck on white.
Perhaps the Dremel tool goes to ork after all?
DELANCEY
avid
As of yesterday, one length of guideway remained to be installed over the Van Wyck. The side pieces are a week or two behind.
Also, they've started building a third, middle guideway where they split to approach the station in Jamaica. Two lengths are in place, but it looks like they are going to have to place more columns before they complete the work.
Last week, I took a Q Local train to Coney Island, and I was surprised it was composed of R-68As, normally on the W Line. I also saw an N train of R-68As, normally on the W line. Are these cars being shuffled during the final stage of the Manhattan Bridge rehabilitation?
Yes, shuffling has occurred very frequently since the bridge swap, probably b/c of the W's shortened off-hour route and the high availability of slants going around. There have been pictures posted of R68 or R68A DIAMOND Qs.
Car assignments are not set in stone. Both Q's, N, and W cars are assigned to CI, and any type of equipment can be used on any line if needed. For example, let's say an R68A "W" consist needs to go to CI yard during the day due to some defect and no R68A's are availiable for that train operator to bring back to the W line, but an R40 is. Are they supposed to let the R40 sit in the yard while the "W" is one train short? Of course not! In your example, the Q local needed a train, no R68 is availiable so an R68A was substituted. No big deal.
To add, I got an R68A Q Diamond Friday night at around 9:15p at 42nd St.
How are they on the Brighton Express?
Peace,
ANDEE
Lack of railfan window I happened to doze off >G<.
Once she did get up to speed, she did move well between Newkirk and the Highway but that hill up out of Newkirk though Ave H, kills the Hippo.
Must be the higher gear ratio. Like trying to climb a hill in fifth gear.
Last Friday (the 10th), I think I spotted a train of R40s on the W. I think it was the W because the train looked to be switching from the local to the express tracks between 42nd and 34th.
They were on there. There was one parked right next to the F I was operating out of Stillwell the other day.
They pretty much allow cars to run on other lines from the same yard (just like the 32's on the R and G) on occasion.
Now we just need a couple of 32's on the Q's via Bway! (They were on there right before the switch from 6th Av.)
I personally wouldn't mind catching more R40s on the W and seeing more R68As on the N. Since the W runs only part-time in Queens and Manhattan and the N runs 24/7 from Ditmars to Stillwell, maybe they should switch the car assignments for the N and W lines, keeping the newer R68As in service more often and allowing the older R32s and R40s to rest on the weekends. There could still be a handful of R68s on the W (like there are now on the N) to hold down late-night W shuttle service.
On November 11th, 2001AD, the 63rd Street Connector opens for full time service. Is this the service plan? Am I right or wrong?
(E) Jamaica Center to World Trade Center via 53rd Street Tunnel. Express in Queens 6am to 12midnight. Local all other times.
(F) 179th Street-Jamaica to Coney Island via 63rd Street Tunnel. Express in Queens 6am to 12midnight. Local all other times. Express in Brooklyn, Jay Street to Church Avenue, Weekdays 6am to 10pm. Local all other times.
(G) Court Square to Church Avenue on Weekdays 6am to 9pm. All other times, Forest Hills to Church Avenue.
(R) Forest Hills to 95th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn via 60th Street Tunnel. 6am-12midnight daily. All other times, 36th Street to 95th Street in Brooklyn only.
(V) Forest Hills to Church Avenue via 53rd Street Tunnel. Weekdays 6am to 10pm. Local in Queens and Manhattan.
Is it possible that they can extend the Q to 179th Street-Jamaica, running express in Queens on weekdays 6am to 10pm? Because the Broadway Line has 3 Express trains: Q local, Q express and W. They can run the E, F and Q Express and the R and V local. At all other times, the Q will terminate at 57th Street-7th Avenue.
There are no plans for the F to run express in Brooklyn. The V will be terminating at 2 Avenue. They are now working at 2 Avenue building a dispatcher's office and crew room and they will be re-opening the 2 tail tracks to lay-up trains. The G will go to Church Ave only on weekends. There are no plans to run the Q to Queens, although it is physically possible.
Please confirm the G WILL go to Church Ave on weekends. This is news indeed for me. Second comment, it is not proper to make an extension for diamond Q differentiating it from circle Q. On the 6 and 7 lines there is no difference between circle and diamond except for lcl and exp. Having diamond Q have an extended route that circle Q doesn't have is not proper. If diamond Q were renamed, it would make sense. The TA doesn't want the 1/9 to have different routes from each other nor do they want that with the J/Z.
A on the Queens line would make sense. The <> is used for special rush hour service, as well as to differentiate bet. local and express. In the "Q"s case, that would be the Brighton Express. Given that the Queens line extension of the "Q" would theoretically be a special rush hour service, it should be signed up as a .
Sorry about this, apparently this message board doesn't read
Okay. The spaces where the diamond Q is supposed to go are blank. So just substitute "diamond Q" in those spaces. As well as in my other message.
It's because the message board software is reading your angle brackets as HTML code. Leave A space eg, < Q >
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, you should be able to type but, unfortunately, that doesn't work either. It used to, but no more. Dave Pirmann should fix this, but since I have written about this before and he has never responded, I doubt he will.
By the way, the G train is not going to Church Avenue. That is just wishful thinking.
=
- Lyle Goldman
> Actually, you should be able to type "
That should be <Q>
- Lyle Goldman
But right now the circle Q has a longe route than the diamond Q on the southern end of the run. So why couldn't the diamond Q go further on the northern end. I'm not commenting on the need for the service, but just the logic behind the route naming.
Both Q services terminate at 57th St. You can't have one express terminating and another continuing on.
Is the (G) going to Church? I really doubt it. It will almost definitely be Smith-9th St's, Brooklyn to Court Square, Queens on weekdays and Smith-9th St's Brooklyn to 71-Continental, Queens on weekends.
:-) Andrew
I believe the G is to be based out of Coney Island/Culver yard. If that is the case I wouldn't be surprised if the G was extended to Coney Island and would thereby get some R68s. If it remains in Jamaica I don't understand how they'll fit it, but then Smith 9th will definitely be the only south terminal.
Correction:
"I wouldn't be surprised if the G was extended to Coney Island. . ."
I mean the G would be extended to Church, and when it needed to get to CI yard it would run as an F.
I'm a TA T/O and I saw the proposed winter schedules. It has the G going from Continental Av to Church Av on weekends only. The plan is to use 4 car R-68's assigned to C.I. Yard and be OPTO. This is all subject to union approval to which I heard there is some opposition to it.
> to Church Av on weekends
Really? Will it run express or local? And what about the F Train?
- Lyle Goldman
It isn't going there many say and if it was the G would never run express, F presides since it is a Manhattan service.
A 24 hour a day, seven day a week GO is planned for the lower tracks at Bergen Street, to replace the Bergen Street interlocking. After the lower level is done, you'll have G.O.s on the regular local tracks.
The replacement of the interlocking may have something to do with the plans for the G, but I'm not sure how.
>>Really? Will it run express or local? And what about the F Train?<<
I couldn't tell you if the G would run to Church. Want a definitive answer? Ask RTO.
However, I can answer the question about express or local.
The express tracks have been out-of-comission since the track fire that destroyed the switching machine. Larry Littlefield says that there is a 24/7 GO that will replace the interlocking there and make the tracks usable again, but I don't know when this GO begins/ends. So, aside from that 2 week period when F trains ran express single direction without signal coverage those tracks are unused.
Second, if the tracks were restored, the G would never run express. It has no connection when it arrives at Bergen. F trains coming from Jay St. can choose: Lower level? Upper level. But G trains coming from Hoyt must stop at the upper level of Bergen. Hence, the G train will never run express on the Crosstown Express tracks.
> the G would never run express.
Actually, the G Train could theoretically cross over to the express track between Smith/Ninth Streets and Fourth Avenue and run express from there. But I doubt they will.
- Lyle Goldman
The G does cross to the express track there -- to relay.
And why should it?
N/W
it is not proper to make an extension for diamond Q differentiating it from circle Q. On the 6 and 7 lines there is no difference between circle and diamond except for lcl and exp ...
On the 6, local trains terminate at Parkchester - 177th St and expresses continue to Pelham Bay Park.
On the Q, expresses terminate at Brighton Beach and locals continue to Stillwell Ave.
What is the problem with the circle / diamond nomenclature in this instance? Why is this not "proper"?
--Mark
The problem is... within *Manhattan*, both Qs are Express. The problem lies in having two Express trains on the same route with the same letter designation but differing terminals.
The examples you gave involve particluar lines leaving Manhattan and *then* splitting into local/express.
At least, that's what I make of the reasons I've heard.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
NICE POST! : )
There are just some things I would like to remind you with:
(F) 179th Street-Jamaica to Coney Island via 63rd Street Tunnel. Express in Queens 6am to 12midnight. Local all other times. Express in Brooklyn, Jay Street to Church Avenue, Weekdays 6am to 10pm. Local all other times.
The F train is NOT going to be express in Brooklyn. When the IND first proposed its subway (like the original B,D,F,Q format of the 6th Av. Subway, the B, D and Q ran express and the F was assigned local to Stillwell Av.
The Q, Q, and W-est End trains well occupy the Brighton line, and the former B and D tracks. The only 6th Av line that is entirely untouched (except for the 63 St. tunnel) is the F - Culver Lcl. from Jamaica-179 St. to Stillwell.
(G) Court Square to Church Avenue on Weekdays 6am to 9pm. All other times, Forest Hills to Church Avenue.
I think you have your facts mixed up. The G only runs to COURT SQ. on WEEKENDS and it doesn't go farther into Queens than that. On WEEKDAYS, however, G trains operate to 71-Continental Avs. with the R train local in all boroughs (2).
Also, what happened to Smith-9th Sts.? Is the G terminating at Church Av. instead?
All other info. you mustered were virtually all correct. Although, the V, it runs local? What about the G? You then have 3 trains local instead of 2. The invention of the V line was primarily to ease up traffic jams on the Queens Blvd. (E,F) lines.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The V is replacing the G on the Queens BLVD line during the day. Hence there wont be 3 trains running local. The purpose is to have all 4 trains go to Manhattan. As it stands now the G is virtually a waste of a train during Rush hours. If you dont believe me ride the Queens Blvd line during the morning rush. See how many people get on the G as opposed to the E,F, and R. Having the V will mean one more train for people going to Manhattan to get on , thus easing overcrowding and congestion inside the train itself.
But I wonder how many people will take a local all the way through Queens to get into Manhattan. Possibly more so in the PM back since the sense of urgency getting home on time may not be as great as getting to work. Quickness is more a priority for me than seating.
It doesn't make sense rerouting ALL of those trains local in Queens.
Also, during a Service Advisory, WHY do they make all those Queens Blvd. trains run LOCAL? This has happened for several Sundays (not nowadays) that there are THREE times as many trains on the local track than on the EXP. Why in the world does the MTA not think about those Local tracks for a long time and concentrate too much on the exp as to close it down during regular service hours?
....
Railfan Pete.
They are resignalling the express tracks so they can be controlled by Queensboro Master. To do this, they must remove power from the signal system, resulting in no express service. Just wait 'til they get to the local tracks.
Try getting LuchAAA "Mr. Conspiracy" to believe you.
Been there, done that. No luck.
Well if you can manage the impossible, then a couple of dollars in Lotto might be on order (Lotto...aka the poor man's 401K)
Who is the Queensboro Master?
I know during this rerouting time, the local tracks were Closed on the Queens-bound tracks, but when they get to the local, they must only resignal them one direction at a time, so as to provide service to the local stops which the G and the R train currently serve.
Good thing, nowadays Queens Blvd. line trains are running express on thier relative tracks. Although when I approach (my mom and my brother also) Queens Plaza, I'm ALWAYS ANXIOUS to find out if the E train is going local or express. I can never be sure because of the activity in the express tracks.
Railfan Pete.
Queensboro Master Tower is a unified Tower to replace several smaller Towers on the BMT (Astoria - 60th Street Tunnel), IRT (Flushing - Steinway Tunnel) and IND (Queens Blvd./Northern Blvd./Crosstown/53rd Street Tunnel/63rd Street Tunnel) in that general area.
Just go and take a ride on the R train during the morning rush on Queens Blvd. I think you will reconsider your assumption of people not taking the local all the way to manhattan. I wish this were the case, then maybe id get a seat on it in the morning.
"But I wonder how many people will take a local all the way through Queens to get into Manhattan. Possibly more so in the PM back since the sense of urgency getting home on time may not be as great as getting to work. Quickness is more a priority for me than seating."
Depends on where the passengers gets on and how far a they are going.
N/W Bwy
If you go to the mens or ladies room before leaving work, the Urgency to get home quickly lessens somewhat!
avid
The way downtown Brooklyn is growing just maybe the G might get a larger share of ridership along the Queens Blvd Corridor.
N/W Bwy Lines
Downtown Brooklyn, growing? Where? How? What? It seems about as stagnant as ever...
As opposed to Jersey City.
Chalk it up to those dumbasses who surrendered their independence to a lesser city over a century ago.
Do you work there?
What the hell are you talking about? I can understand you don't like in New York and know JACK-SQUAT about the subway, but then don't post crap you make up in your head as truth.
The F train is NOT going to be express in Brooklyn. When the IND first proposed its subway (like the original B,D,F,Q format of the 6th Av. Subway, the B, D and Q ran express and the F was assigned local to Stillwell Av.
When the IND first proposed its subway, there was no Q, and the IND extended only to Church Avenue, to which the F operated, the BB terminated at 34th Street and ran rush hours only, the D terminated at 2nd Avenue rush hours, and 34th Street other times.
In 1954, the connection from the IND Church to the BMT Ditmas was made and the D and F switched southern terminals, with the D running to Coney Island via Culver.
In 1967, the D switched to Brighton, the F was extended to Culver and the BB was made into the B, which was extended to West End. The Q and QT which operated along Broadway and Brighton were eliminated, leaving only the QB.
In 1985, the QB became the Q
In 1986, the B and D got split into two routes, the southern B was like today's W, the southern D like today's Q-circle (and the N was switched to the tunnel).
In 1988, the south side closed and the north side opened, B and D were restored, but the Q was routed via 6th Avenue.
I think you have your facts mixed up. The G only runs to COURT SQ. on WEEKENDS and it doesn't go farther into Queens than that. On WEEKDAYS, however, G trains operate to 71-Continental Avs. with the R train local in all boroughs (2).
No, YOU have it mixed up. The G might run that way now, but this will change in November.
All other info. you mustered were virtually all correct. Although, the V, it runs local? What about the G? You then have 3 trains local instead of 2. The invention of the V line was primarily to ease up traffic jams on the Queens Blvd. (E,F) lines.
The G will be cut back to Court Square when the V is running. When Mr. NYC2000Info said that, you had to say he was wrong, now you get confused.
The G riders won full-length service during weekends? Wow!
Where did you get information regarding "G" service to Church Avenue at ANY time???
They should run the G to Church during Middays and Rush hours. And, the F could be peak express to Church. But, they won't do it.
This morning(Sunday Night) at about 1:00, i boarded a uptown R142 at Times Square. About halfway through the ride, there was 3 guys sitting across from me talking about subway car numbers and i think they were talking about how the 2 should become an express again at night. But anyway way after making fun of the homeless lady, they got off at Gun Hill and one of them took a picture of the front of the train. If you guys are fellow subtalkers, please respond to this message. I'm the guy with the red plaid shirt, carrying a umbrella and a blue and black bag.
<< But anyway way after making fun of the homeless lady >>
I'm not sure I'd want to know people who make fun of the homeless. There but for the grace of....
This morning(Sunday Night) at about 1:00, i boarded a uptown R142 at Times Square. About halfway through the ride, there was 3 guys sitting across from me talking about subway car numbers and i think they were talking about how the 2 should become an express again at night. But anyway way after making fun of the homeless lady, they got off at Gun Hill and one of them took a picture of the front of the train. If you guys are fellow subtalkers, please respond to this message. I'm the guy with the red plaid shirt, carrying a umbrella and a blue and black bag. BTW, i would've joined the conversation on the subway, but i was too tired from work.
Want a good laugh?
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http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1177532288.
The seller is offering the following MetroCards:
"Set of 11 2001 metrocards, all with advertisements on the back. (Metrocards no longer carry ads, so they are collector's items.) 2 with American Express ads; 2 with urban fetch.com ads; 1 millenial journey (Am. Express) ad; 1 natural resources ad; 1 circle line ad, 1 Polish Day Parade commemorative ad, 1 Dial 101-6868 ad, 1 EAB (bank) ad, and 1 DLJ Direct ad. Selling entire set."
Guess what he has as an opening bid? $10, $20? Not even close - he wants $1,000.00.
Talk about your fantasies.
He is a rookie.
He does not know the first rule on eBay, "don't start the bid too high." High final bidding price depends on bidding, instead of starting the price high.
Chaohwa
Too high is an understatement.
That guy is just greedy. He won't last very long on ebay.
Looks like he forgot a decimal point somewhere (at least I hope that's the case)... whoops. $3.30 down the drain for him ;).
And stupid. Since when don't they print adverts on MetroCards? Didn't they just release a new one last month?
-Hank
Maybe not stupid. Perhaps he's just trying to lure in an unsuspecting Pulaski Day Parade afficionado through subterfuge.
It also costs more to list. You should never have a starting price over 9.99.
That's right, you can have a reserve price if you're too scared to sell under a certain price.
They charge you for that. The best thing to do is just be attentive and cancel the auction if need be.
What a hoot!
Most recently there has been a lawsuit with Ebay and Bidbay, for trademark infringement.....its funny. Its like Dunkin Donuts suing Twin Donuts because of the word Donut in their name.
No it isn't; not even CLOSE. Try BidBay's site, then go immediately back and forth between the two. Now turn off your graphics loading, close your eyes, and click a billion of so times. Stop, open your eyes. Without looking at the URL or any of the large text, what site are you at?
-Hank
How about the World Wildlife Fund's suit against the World Wrestling Federation over its initials?
about time...
Peace,
ANDEE
...I hope the wildlife people prevail. I've been supporting them for years.
Peace,
ANDEE
They have, and the judge called the Wrestling folks arguments the legal equivalnt of "BULLSHIT"
But the BidBay/eBay suit...all you need is a pair of eyeballs to see the similarities. It goes a lot further than the name. The colors, layout, and even the listing style look like they just stole an ebay server and changed the names and logo graphics.
-Hank
HMMM... Let's see. Human children starving and dying all around the world, crime, disease and sickness, and I'm supposed to worry about a bunch of rabid pandas? There's something wrong with these people. They have nothing better to do with their lives than convince us that every human will die if the spotted owl goes extinct. Who cares? Go ahead. Flame away. I don't plan to post any more non-train topics.
How about the guy who got three years for killing a dog? They raised more in reward money to find the dog's killer than they did for Polly Klass.
-Hank
>> Go ahead. Flame away. <<
I'd love to. But unfortunately, it would be a waste of a flame.
Let me guess, you dispose of your trash on subway cars and platforms too, don't you?
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I wasn't going to reply to this any further, but since you mentioned littering subway cars, I'll do it. What does this have to do with animal rights? I have never left a bottle cap on a subway car. I didn't say I wasn't in favor of keeping the planet clean. I SAID I think that the people who go nuts over a species of rat being wiped out are bored people with nothing better to do.
Please do not insinuate that I would ever deface subway property, or litter in any way.
Don't forget that back in the late 1970s, a number of "Kansas Fried Chicken" stores began popping up in New York. You can't get much more derivative than that (and last time I looked, the one at 14th St. and Second Ave. had actually become a real KFC).
KFC was always on that corner of 14/2. I remember when I was little, my Grandma would stop by after work and pick up a bucket-o-chicken (KFC) there.
At one point there was a Kansas Fried Chicken place there, right next to the OTB (just the fact that anyone would have the huevos to do it is one reason why I remember that location so well).
And Tennessee Fried Chicken, and Kennedy Fried Chicken...
He's from the Poconos... maybe he's one of our Pennsylvania commuters trying to see who he can sucker... there are a couple of non-rail-related categories that I follow on eBay and it's amazing what people will pay for stuff they can get elsewhere - or even in other auctions on eBay - for much less. As an occasional seller I've also been amazed at what people have paid for some of the items I've offered for sale - I sold am unused linen-finish postcard for over twenty times what I expected to get for it last year. The bidder - from Finland - even paid me extra to send it registered mail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't be so hard on the guy, he probably just forgot to mention that there's almost $1,000 still on the cards.
Like a fine wine, an aged cheese, a throughbred race horse, a harvest season, and a thirst to be quenched
ITS TIME HAS COME!
make Woodhave Blvd, on the Queens Blvd line an Express stop!
avid
This is an interesting solution. What is the problem it is supposed to solve?
so that avid reader doesn't have to change to the local!
And the price to do the work would be reasonable.
To the contrary: unreasonable. As it stands now you have no room for a platform for the express tracks.
As it stands now you have no room for a platform for the express tracks.
Woodhaven was designed for conversion to an express stop. There are a couple of scenerios. Both have room for an express platforms.
The basic question remains - what value would be gained?
touche Stephen!
Well, for one thing, it might satisfy the MTA's desire for ever-slower express runs- break up the Queens Blvd run a little, you know.
When I was a kid, the E & F jusst flew, and the sounds made by a slant on either line were awesome. Now it crawls....
The local platforms would become express platforms by throwing down the walls. There is supposedly tunnel behind them.
What tunnel behind the walls? I've never seen anything about that at Woodhaven. The nearest extra IND tunnel is above track level at Roosevelt, AFAIK.
The only way you can convert it to express is either to shut down local service while the trackbed and platforms were swapped to create an island platform at Woodhaven, or shut down the express tracks so they can be dropped down a level, where a platform could be built for them. Given the traffic on the Queens Blvd. lines and the amount of delays and service cancellations either option would cause, I would guess there aren't enough riot police in the Tri-State area to hold back the mob of Queens passengers who would descend with torches and ropes on the MTA's headquarters if that actually happened.
There are turnouts before and after the station to allow the local tracks to be rerouted around the platforms, then the platforms can be extended over what would then be the former local tracks.
But does it extend behind the wall of the station or are the turnouts just up to the wall and then stop. If it's the former, than the delays would be far less than what I metioned, while if it's the latter, the savings in construction time would be marginal compared to the disruption of service, which would involve either shutting down the local tracks entirely (really disruptive) or closing the Woodhaven station for the time it took to demolish the old platform and put in the new one (not as disruptive, but it would screw up all the bus connections and area businesses for a few years).
How is platform access to the station configured? If there are staircases to a mezzanine, how about this:
Step 1: Install new local tracks behind the platform walls. No service disruption necessary.
Step 2: Connect the new local tracks to the turnouts. No service disruption necessary.
Step 3: Tear down the walls. Trains may need to bypass the station temporarily, but they could probably continue to stop at other local stations.
Step 4: Route local trains over the new tracks. No service disruption necessary.
Step 5: Extend the platforms over the old local tracks. Express trains may need to run on the local tracks for a while.
Ta da! An express station.
You'd have a super-wide platform -- about 22-25 feet across -- but considering the crowding on the Queens Blvd. line I suppose that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, especially if it gave the MTA the option for some E/F trains to buypass Roosevelt during rush hours because of its massive platform overcrowding.
That platform overloading at Roosevelt would be relieved somewhat. Passengers transferring from local to express would do so at Woodhaven. Some passengers transferring from express to local might do so at Woodhaven, too, especially if a local happens to be across the platform.
There are a several of things to consider.
Will rush hour implementation of the 63rd St Connector have any effect on existing travel patterns? Does most of the crowding on the Roosevelt Ave platform result from local-express interchange or is there some contribution from the Flushing Line transfer? Would there be crowding, if the QB line ran closer to capacity than it presently does? Would there be crowding, if all the trains had an adequate number of doors (60 vs. 75 footers).
Oh, I agree. I'm not familiar enough with travel patterns on that line to make a definitive statement. All I'm saying is that it might be possible without extreme expense (unlike, say, at 59th on the 1/9, where a new track outside the platform would cut off all access to and from the platform, both entering/exiting and transferring.) and it might be a helpful change. Might.
Excellant points! Whats your guess?
My thoughts are; the E and F will still be expresses. what ever tunnel they take, once on QB they will be express (during Rush) They nature of most of the NY mentality is RAT RACE. I think if people think they can catch up to a local, they will remain on the express as long as possible.
For myself, the choice of a seat vs, 5 mins travel time. Give me the seat please. I'm talking "V" vs. "F" from 47-50 to Woodhaven.
Doors, the trnd seems to be drifting back to 60ft. cars overall. Its whats used on the QB that needs to be examined.
avid
"Would there be crowding, if all the trains had an adequate number of doors (60 vs. 75 footers). "
Adding more doors will not reduce the number of people (crowding) on a platform... but it will allow them to have faster intercourse with the train.
Elias
Adding more doors will not reduce the number of people (crowding) on a platform...
The area around the doors will be 20% to 25% more crowded, if the same number of people are trying to cross 32 door thresholds instead of 40.
I don't think we should encourage people to engage in intercourse with trains.
Do you have Tarot cards? You are reading my thoughts!
It should seem obvious to others, if enough time is taken to view it.
avid.
E and F trains wouldn't have to bypass Roosevelt Ave. Less train changes would occur at Roosevelt Ave with an express stop just down the line.
avid
Even with Woodhaven, you'd still have the crowds transfering from the No. 7 train at Roosevelt. Local passengers between Continental and Woodhaven could transfer at the new express stop, but those between there and Roosevelt plus the ones coming in from the No. 7 train would still make crowding there a problem.
BUT, not as much!
avid
Well stated, very well put!
avid
Perhaps both local and express tracks could shift to the right, the local going behind the wall, the express now onto the vacated old local tracks. The now empty old express tracks can now be considered for a possible underfly to connect to the unused Rottaway Branch???
avid
If it were to be done, I think the behind the wall and extra wide platform option David suggested would be the best. There really can't be any major disruptions to either the local or express tracks on Queens Blvd. other than late nights and on weekend GOs, and that option would seem to move the bulk of the work as far away from the main tracks as possible.
If and when Woodhaven is converted to an express stop, AVID gets a one seat ride on an express! If not avid gets a one seat ride on the prenatal "V" local.
I want my W E S
(Woodhaven Express Stop)
avid
I was being sarcastic, the mind boggles at what such work would cost. You would have to move all 4 tracks if I'm correct. Am I?
Precisely!
It would also lessen the crowding at Roosevelt Ave. during the A.M and P.M rush hours.
Does anyone else find Roosevelt Ave platforms to be narrower than Queens Plaza platforms? I think the additional express station/stop would cut down the crowding on the local, the dwell time of both the express and locals.
avid
After you get yours, the people at 63rd Drive would want one too!
On what basis?
Is the number of users at 63rd drive equal to or greater than the number of users at Woodhaven?
Are there prepositioned turnouts at both ends of both sides to allow for a less service impact construction?
The U.S Constitution?
To generate stimulating dialogue?
To bait 63rd Drive YIMBIES?
avid
And before we knew it, ther'd be no more QB express.
What! And kill that great eastbound express run?! Please reconsider!
What great eastbound express run? Timers killed that long ago! With an express stop inserted, perhaps so timers can be removed.
avid
Is that why the station was built the way it was? I could never figure out what was going on there. Was another second system connection supposed to be involved with this?
Not that I know of. Its here on the site actually. The nearest IND Secrond system related structure is (I think) the Turnout at 63rd Drive for proposed Rockaway Service. Anyway, Woodhaven Station Should be converted to an Express Station because the area above is WAY too congested. Have you ever been at the Jackson Heights Station on the G/R local?? So many people crowd those (Mostly) R-46's that sometimes I can feel the train DROP an inch or two when the train starts to move. And most of those people get off the Woodhaven Station to get on the Q11 to go down to the Howard Beach area. There is also the Queens Center Mall above that Station. And dont forget OPENING SOON at close proximity of the mall: A BEST BUY, A TARGET STORE, And some steak house. MORE STORES + MORE PEOPLE = MORE CROWDED WOODHAVEN STATION. THATS WHY WE NEED EXPRESS SERVICE THERE.
:)
Anthony
I'm only aware of the option to switch to an express stop. The rest is speculation and dreams.
avid
Back in 1936, the area around the station was far less congested than it is today. No Lefrak City, no mall, no LIE for people to use to drive to the subway from the east. It is a common practice, because the 12-hour meter sections of the municipal lot are usually filled by 8 a.m. on weekdays. Much of surrounding residential Elmhurst, Rego Park and Middle Village hadn't been developed yet.
Roosevelt/Jackson Heights had to be an express stop due to its connection to the Flushing line. The proximity of Continental/Forest Hills to the LIRR probably contributed to its being awarded express status.
It's funny how the original IND was designed with such long express stretches (Roosevelt to Continental; 59th to 125th; Bergen to 7th; 145th to Tremont, bypassing Yankee Stadium), and at the same time has such frequent express stops along 8th Avenue and Fulton Street. These are probably due to transfers to the Canarsie Line and the never-built Nostrand Avenue line respectively.
Why Parsons/Hillside was designed as an express stop is beyond me.
Back in 1936, the area around the station was far less congested than it is today.
"desolate" is the proper adjective :-)
Roosevelt/Jackson Heights had to be an express stop due to its connection to the Flushing line.
There was no intent for Flushing line connection. Jackson Heights was the fastest growing community of the 1920's. It also made sense to have an express stop to connect to the proposed Rockaway extension terminal upstairs.
The proximity of Continental/Forest Hills to the LIRR probably contributed to its being awarded express status.
Forest Hills was an established community when the IND was built. So was Kew Gardens. They were separate and distinct. 75th Ave-Queens Blvd was wilderness.
Why Parsons/Hillside was designed as an express stop is beyond me.
Parsons was the commercial heart of Jamaica which was centered on Jamaica Ave at that time.
"desolate" is the proper adjective :-)
I don't think it was far less desolate.
The buildings that you see there did not replace existing structures. The hospital went up in the late 1940's. The department stores and mall did not go up until the 1960's. Even the Queens Blvd's inner roadways were depressed there.
There may have been some used car lots but Fairyland was closed in winter.
The story I heard concerning express stops in Manhattan is that the planners were attempting to discourage transfers between expresses and locals. They had noted that on the IRT and BMT, people took locals as far as the next express stop, then switched to an express, even if the local already went to the same location. As a result, expresses were often obscenely crowded while locals were fairly empty. The 8th Avenue line, therefore, has only three local-only stops (50th, 23rd, and Spring Streets) while the original Sixth Avenue line had no express service at all.
Or put in another way, IND planners wanted to induce local riders to stay on their trains to their final destination.
Yeah, by sending the "GG" crosstown, to Brooklyn! Then the BMT connection down B'way.
I'm still cornfused.
avid
Only in Manhattan (south of 125th Street). In Brooklyn and Queens, the local tracks don't even run into Manhattan. That proved to be a mistake from day one.
Since when did the IND care about transfers to the other divisions? If anything, I'd suggest the IND avoided good interdivisional transfers.
(It's funny how the original IND was designed with such long express stretches (Roosevelt to Continental; 59th to 125th; Bergen to 7th; 145th to Tremont, bypassing Yankee Stadium), and at the same time has such frequent express stops along 8th Avenue and Fulton Street. These are probably due to transfers to the Canarsie Line and the never-built Nostrand Avenue line respectively.)
I like the usual IND layout. Most people are heading for the CBD, so by having many stops there you eliminate the need to change trains. Outside the CBD, you divide the city into separate "inner" and "outer" areas, with the inner area served by a local and the outer area served by an express. The Fulton Street line would be better is some of the express stops west of Euclid were eliminated, and more C trains were run.
As for avoiding transfers, Downtown Brooklyn is the most notorious example. The main transfer point is at Atlantic and Flatbush, but since I'm on the F, I can't get there without multiple changes and multiple stairs. The Fulton line stops near there, but it's only a local stop, and it involved doubling back.
The Queens-bound A could stop at Lafayette without causing merging delays. Past Hoyt-Schermerhorn, both A and C trains would switch to the local track. Just past Lafayette, A trains would switch back to the express track and C would keep going straight. Unfortunately, the analogous crossover does not exist Manhattan-bound. IMO, such a crossover should be installed and both Lafayette (A/C now) and Fulton (G) should be connected to the Atlantic/Pacific complex. I'm afraid that misses the F, but that's pretty much unavoidable -- you can transfer to the G at Smith-9th, backtrack on the A/C at Jay, or just use the M/N/R (whichever of those happen to be running local at the time) from 4th Avenue-9th Street.
(IMO, such a crossover should be installed and both Lafayette (A/C now) and Fulton (G) should be connected to the Atlantic/Pacific complex. I'm afraid that misses the F, but that's pretty much unavoidable -- you can transfer to the G at Smith-9th, backtrack on the A/C at Jay, or just use the M/N/R (whichever of those happen to be
running local at the time) from 4th Avenue-9th Street.)
Back-tracking is no fun, and the change at 4th Avenue is worse. Off peak, all you get is the R, it's a long change with many stairs and passageways, and there are few people on the platform. It's just about the highest crime station in the area.
If the G were extend to Church off peak, however, I could take the G right to the vicinity of Atlantic Center.
I agree that the F is a lost cause.
Remember that the M now runs off-peak and stops at 9th Street, and weekends the N is local along with the R. Still, it's obvious that the IND planners went out of their way to make any future integration into the rest of the system difficult.
I'm surprised crime is terribly high there. It's not as long and twisty a connection as some others. I'd guess it gets moderately but not very low usage. (You want low usage? I'll bet almost nobody uses the B/N transfer at New Utrecht-62nd except during GO's. It serves no purpose for anyone going more than a few stops.)
Upcoming at the National Building Museum (not part of the Smithsonian) in Washington, DC.
Making Tracks: The History of Urban Rail Transit in America
December 15, 2001 - August 11, 2002.
See ya'll later
Virginia Division - BMT
Time for them to send another Redbird down to the Smithsonian -- maybe this time an R-33/36 WF car that they can say ran past the outfield walls of Yankee Stadium on the Woodlawn line since the mid-1960s (to go hand-in-hand with the R-33 ML car brought down for the June festival on the mall which they said plowed the Flushing Line for 37 years).
Speaking of which, what happened to 9056? The festival is over, no?
I did some GO chasing yesterday. Here are my comments.
I started at 86th Street on the 1. The only posting I saw about the northbound GO was on the whiteboard in the token booth -- the only official signs were about 63rd Street service. A group of tourists was surprised when a 5 passed through -- not that it was a 5, but by the entire concept of express service.
At 72nd I got off and waited for the next 5, passing up a 2 (R-142) and, IIRC, a 3. Unlike the rerouted 5 I rode a few weeks ago, this one had a south destination of Bowling Green, and the C/R repeatedly announced, "This is a 5 train to Bowling Green, making express stops to Chambers Street." His announcements were generally excellent -- at 42nd he directed passengers to the shuttle to get back to the East Side; at Chambers he directed passengers to the 2/3 to get to Brooklyn; and overall he was very helpful. One very tiny quibble: he announced the S at 14th even though (in practice) it doesn't run on weekends. Anyway, this was shortly after noon in lead car 8820, if that helps identify the C/R in question. As per the announcements, the train ran in service nonstop from Chambers to Bowling Green. Other than the longish wait (about 4-5 minutes, I'd guess) for a 1 to get out of South Ferry, it was a nice ride. (Incidentally, a train stopped at South Ferry clears the switch from the inner loop by a large margin.)
I stayed on board until Brooklyn Bridge, where I transferred to a 6. (A 6 pulled out just as we arrived. Why couldn't the tower wait another 30 seconds before turning on the starting lights?) The lead car was 8573, and the red was coming through on one of the seats. While waiting to go, I walked through to the end of the train. One of the cars was the famed 8603, but I didn't see any straps out of the ordinary -- is it possible that they've been replaced? Anyway, I got off one stop later for the Q.
The signs at the 6 staircases to the Q/W have been updated with directions. As per GO, the Q ran express in Brooklyn, but announcements weren't very explicit so many passengers got off and waited for a local to arrive. I didn't see any work on the local tracks or stations. After Sheepshead Bay we switched to the local track even though the express track goes through. At either Sheepshead Bay or Brighton Beach we were held, presumably because (big surprise here) we were a few minutes ahead of schedule. Nothing of interest to CI.
At CI I transferred to the W. There were no signs on the platform or on the train about the GO; the only signs I saw were by the turnstiles, and that's not of much use for anyone transferring there (except those, like myself, who happen to have used the facilities). The C/R briskly announced the next stop (59th, which isn't even normally served by the W) before closing the doors. I always enjoy the Sea Beach express run, but invariably, as we begin to pass an N approaching 8th Avenue, we get the red signal while the N, which still has one stop to go, gets the go-ahead, leaving us waiting on the express track, doing no one any good.
We finally passed the N on the express track, and at 36th an R of R-32's (lead car 3479) pulled in, and I crossed over. I ended up sharing the railfan window with someone else (well, except when I sat down -- he didn't) the whole way to 23rd. The blue on one of the seats was showing.
I got off at 23rd to investigate the two HEETs on the platform. I walked through them a few times in both directions (no, I didn't need to swipe). They do seem a bit out-of-place. The new floor tile is nice -- a lot nicer than the usual gray tile. I continued on the following N -- the one that cut us off on the Sea Beach. (There was a long wait -- I wonder why.) At 34th I crossed over to a downtown Q. The C/R made repeated announcements that the W doesn't run to Manhattan on weekends, and that passengers looking for the W should take the Q and transfer. Still, lots of folks didn't get on. Got off at Canal for the J.
The sign at the J staircase now explicitly lists the Bowery, in addition to a printed sign beneath it. As someone here said would happen (but there was no indication on the service announcements web page), we ran express on the center track to Eastern Parkway. The PA system cut in and out, so it was impossible to make out what the C/R was saying, and when we went out of service at EP, many passengers stayed on the train.
Up to the L (which wasn't running split service). Uneventful. We warded off a chronic door-holder -- you know, the kind who not only holds the doors for someone coming down the stairs but holds the doors a few minutes for someone who's still buying his MetroCard. Off at Lorimer -- indeed, the only IND-style caption pointing to the transfer is at the Manhattan end of the Canarsie-bound platform.
G to Court Square. Excellent announcement about the shuttle bus. The passageway is narrow to make room for construction of the moving walkway. The bus itself sat for a long time before leaving (shouldn't it be scheduled to leave shortly after a train pulls in?). Off at 21st.
Someone should really put up official directional signs above the escalators; even though there is no distinction weekdays, there is one weekends and nights. There was a long wait (three trains went by the other way, one packed), but the train that eventually arrived was fairly empty. Rode to 34th, where I helped a couple of tourists figure out what was wrong with their subway map and told them where to find a new one.
Onto the D and up to 161st. Major signage error: the staircase near the south end is signed for the 4 transfer, but at the top another sign informs passengers that all they can do there is exit. The escalator up to the 4 was stopped; I waited for everyone walking up it to get off and tried pushing the start button, but to no avail.
No signs upstairs that the 4 would be terminating one stop later. The south destination was 'Special'. No announcements at 149th; many passengers stayed on board. Down on the 2/5 platform, there were copious announcements that all trains were running down the West Side, but when a 2 pulled in, the platforms remained half full as people waited for a 5. BTW, why were shuttle buses running to 138th instead of 125th? Sure, it's a bit closer, but why force everyone to cram onto the local for one stop?
I got off at 96th to wait for the local, and I was surprised to see an uptown local pull in on the local track. I guess that GO ended early (by at least 11 hours).
I guess that's about it.
Oh, the 1 I rode at the end of the day had yellow stripes under the number plates -- that means it's out of Pelham, right? Yet the strip maps in my car were from the 3.
Where is WMATAGMOUGH? I haven't seen him post for ages.
WMATAGMOUGH posted a while ago that he would be away from access to the board for most of the summer. He'll be back, don't worry.
And it's WMATAGMOAGH.
You can credit his sudden disappearance to the appearance of the ATLAS menace.
I'll let you figure it out.
The ATLAS menace? What is this???
As Keystone Pete said, I have limited access to the computer for the summer. I am making very limited posts though I am reading the board approximately twice a week. I should return to full posting in early to mid September.
BTW, sorry about the bastardized spelling of WMATAGMOAGH. I thought I had it! :O)
LOL.
No problem.
I see WMATA in WMATAGMOAGH.
I see in GM in WMATAGMOAGH.
What is OAGH in WMATAGMOAGH?
Hello everyone,
i am a filmmaker interested in making a documentary about the subway and its riders. i recently read stanley fishcler's "uptown downtown" and read a section about a woman who rode the entire nyc subway system and wrote about her experience. i am interested in making a film documentary about this experience. if there is anyone who is interested in making this journey and having it documented please contact me at: chenhouse@aol.com. also, if anyone has any information about people who do this, feel free to contact me as well.
much appreciated,
chenhouse
I just saw on the Channel 4 news that there was a Derailment on the Port Jefferson Branch (If I heard right) they are blaming the derailment on the heavy rains. If anybody has anydeatails let it be known.
The track was washed out. It will be a long time before repairs are completed. Another dose of wet weather snarled the Queens Blvd. subway for hours this evening. Signals were knocked out, and the trains had to crawl to get past Roosevelt Ave.
I just heard on the news that a LIRR work train derailed around Hicksville. It went into deep water. Luckily, no one was killed, but service is suspended "indefinatly." Bummer. :(
Uh oh. Train Dude is gonna be roasting when he finds out about this.
Railfan Pete, watch yo-sef.
Not roasted at all. It's not my branch - first of all and I was home long before it happened. However, for some facts; A light westbound LIRR train derailed when the westbound trackbed was washed away. No injuries but from what I can see, the last car is definitely on the ground and partially down an embankment. The 6th car also appears to be derailed although upright. I suspect that due to the spread rails, most of the rear half of the train is on the ground (only a guess based on what I can see from the helicopter shot). Considering that the eastbound trackbed is also badly eroded, I'd say the Port Jeff line will be out for several days. The Ronkonkoma branch is going to be a real crap-fest tomorrow.
Service will probably be out for the evening, probably longer as the whole trackbed has been washed out and will have to be rebuilt.
On the other track where the train wasn't on, it will have to be thoroughly inspected before any trains go over it.
This is just east of Syosset station, very scenic area but scenery has it's price. :-(
I was not a work train, equipment going west and it did not go into deep water ties and ballast were washed out from underneath it.
Dialog at wreck as LIRR pros inspect the flooded train:
"You ever seen anything like this, Mikie?"
"Nope. Ever have, Richie."
"What're we gonna do about it, Mikie?"
"Go to Channel 4, Richie."
And on the trains:
"The head four cars will not dock at Hicksville for today only."
"Who's getting the doors at Hicksville ?"
"Ritchie, you get the toggle ?"
After docking at Hicksville:
"Who left their keys in the console? "
CAN I HAVE A M.A. RESET PLEASE !
Thank goodness I left work early today. I had no problems at 4:00PM from Penn to Mineola.
I DIDN'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!
Did anyone know the whereabouts of heypaul when this happenned??
He was last seen wearing a bathing suit and muttering "I'm goin' swimming in Woodbury before they close the pool"
Change your name to BartMan:-)
Now seriously, I didn't do it, I've done stuff that could potentially cause one, but I didn't do this one!
We've had some torrential thunderstorms this afternoon causing lots of road flooding. On the LIRR I just heard there has been a derailment of a train just east of the Syosset station. I saw the video on TV, it appears the trackbed and tracks just washed out (gasp!). The last car is procariously hanging over a new stream cut by the floodwaters.
Currently service is suspended east of Hicksville on the PJ branch. Real big wet mess.
Do anybody know if there is Busing from Hicksville to Huntington so like that People don't be stuck there in Hicksville waiting for it to clear?
Almost flooded my basement, but eased off just in time.
i have alot of Subway stuff including keys and other interesting stuff. If anyone has a reverser or Brake Handle for sale, im wiling to purchase it. Email me if you do.
Thanks,
Danny
Well, it's happened again - and again - and again.
On Long Island, an 18 month old, left alone in her family swimming pool - did the unforeseeable. She drowned! Her father - at a loss to explain the incident stated that the child was only out of his sight for a few moments.
Meanwhile, elsewhere, two toddlers were killed and a third is in critical condition when they became trapped in an abandoned car where the temperture reached over 120 degrees. The abandoned car had been there for weeks. The mothers of all three children were at a loss to explain the incident. They all agreed that they thought the toddlers were being watched by older siblings.
Meanwhile, the religious leaders in both shocked communities have seperately blamed the pool manufacturer and the auto manufacturer. They unanimously agree that a device called an "Unattended Child Alarm" installed on the pool or in the automobile could have averted the dual tragedies. A rally is planned for later tonight complete with signs saying "NO ALARMS - NO CHILDREN".
Mark Green and Peter Vallone, in a rare, joint news conference, agreed that the City Council and the Brooklyn District Attorney should investigate the Transit Authority. Their position is that in both cases, the parents were so intent on protecting their children from the feared redbirds, that they were too pre-occupied to properly supervise their precious children.
Of course the alleged humor may be seen as being in poor taste. I agree! I just can't seem to make sense of one tragedy after another where children die because their parents or guardians are too @#$%%!( bust or to @#@$%%!( Stupid to look after those who can't look after themselves.
3 Girls drown because their uncle took them to swim where lifeguards were not on duty and currents were known to be trecherous.
1 child shoots him cousin when he finds his uncle's illegal gun.
1 child shoots himself when he finds his mother's loaded legal gun.
2 children killed and 2 critical after locking themselves in cars while being watched by older siblings.
1 child drowns because her father was distracted.
Yet let a child get caught in the doors of a subway train and it's naturally the fault of the train. Where does the fault in the other incidents lie? Does anyone se a pattern developing here?
Notice: The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He does apologize to any who may have been offended. However, he will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
I think the blame should go to a generally poor gene pool. You know that there are millions of children who are left alone and DON'T manage to kill themselves.
As long as we continue to idiot proof everything the only thing we'll be left with is a world of idiots.
>>>>>>>>As long as we continue to idiot proof everything the only thing we'll be left with is a world of idiots.
Too late. We already are living in a world of idiots.
Unfortunatly, as the availability of safety devices grows, whether it be child-proof caps on bottles trunk latches in cars or door sensors on stainless steel New York City subway trains, it seems society allows people to more and more shirk their own personal responsibility for their actions and if they screw up and people get hurt or die, why then its not their fault, of course.
Why do they have to pay attention when the MTA should be smart enough to know that these people don't have enough sense to get out of the way of the closing doors and should have installed the safety devices in the first place, or so the tort lawyers' arguments go to the juries. Sadly, at least some jurors really do believe the magic money fairy funds the MTA's operations, so they give the plaintiff his or her settlement for doing something people 20, 30, 40 years ago would have never been so stupid to do, because there were no door sensors on the R-10s or the Low Vs or the Standards, and -- suprise! -- for some reason there also weren't hundreds of New Yorkers being dragged by subway cars ever day.
Unfortunatly, as the availability of safety devices grows, ... it seems society allows people to more and more shirk their own personal responsibility for their actions...
You know something really stupid? People at the Highway Dept seem to have to go out of their way to stop motor vehicle operators from operating their vehicle over a grade crossing. To the extent that they've had to install 4-quadrant barrier in some places. They're even talking about installing drag nets at some crossings in Illionis.
Now, surely everyone knows driving across a grade crossing when lights are flashing is unsafe? Perhaps a more effective remedy is to have the Sheriff shoot anyone who is seen to drive cross a grade crossing while the lights are flashing?
Sometimes the lights malfunction. At one crossing, I've stopped twice for the lights only to find myself sitting there for five minutes with nothing coming, at which point I give up and go ahead. On both occasions, everybody else just went by in the other lane. (This is indeed in Illinois.)
Because of the design of the American grade crossing, sometimes this can happen, especially when there are switching moves around the region. If you think about it, you're asking the grade crossing equipment quite a lot. The equipment must:
(1) When a train approaches right-railing, put the lights on at least 27 seconds before the train arrives, and for any train going at any speed.
(2) When a train approaches wrong-railing, it must do exactly the same thing.
(3) When the train leaves, the barriers must be put up as quickly as possible, but not if there is another train coming.
(4) It must be capable of being manually operated by track maintenance crew, if they want to close/open the crossing for some reason. Even under those conditions, where you have two tracks, with one track "dead" and the other "live", the MoW gang must be able to set the crossing to "open" while their train is standing within the section, but the crossing must still automatically "close" when another train approachs on the other track.
I'm not a signal engineer, but I believe this requires three track circuits per crossing per track to accomplish. Wrong railing makes it complicated because you cannot simply have an "arm" circuit and a "disarm" circuit.
Sometimes this circuit mulfunction. More likely, in the vinicity of the crossing, an engine is doing some switching work, and has occupied the track circuit on the approach side. Since the approach side circuit must be long enough to detect a train coming at track speed, you may not necessarily see that switch engine and the switch engine may not necessarily occupy the crossing. Was there a rail yard or a siding near where the crossing was?
Yes, I believe there is a siding nearby.
I was born in NYC and have lived here most of my life. I know nothing about how grade crossings work -- nor do I know the response an approaching driver is supposed to take. For instance, what exactly am I required to do when the lights are flashing? Do I treat them as I'd treat a red traffic signal? A stop sign? A yield sign? Just a warning that something might be coming? And what about unprotected crossings? This caught me quite off-guard when I arrived in Illinois and found dozens of these things around town.
Operation Lifesaver is the best place to learn the details. You can get the information you're looking for here:
http://www.operationlifesaver.org/safety_tips/index.html
Why don't someone who has driver's ed answer this question!? I'm only a railroader (and I don't even have a motor vehicle operator's license).
As far as I know (someone correct me if I am wrong), there is only one meaning for flashing red lights at the crossing, and that is STOP unless you're already on the crossing. If you are already on the crossing you are supposed to get clear before the barriers come down.
If you don't get clear before the barriers come down (due to perhaps a mechanical failure), you should try to zig zag around the opposite side to get clear if you can move your vehicle. If you are trapped in a 4-quardant crossing, you are supposed to drive through the barriers -- they are made of soft wood. If you cannot get your vehicle to move, you are supposed to get out of the vehicle and evacuate your passengers. Now, I believe traffic laws require you to simply watch your car being run over by the train -- by this stage the engineer could probably see you anyway, so in this case you should get well clear of the crossing -- run down the road, so that the debris from the impact doesn't hurt you.
However, if your vehicle stalls while the lights are not flashing and barriers are not down, you should contact the dispatcher of the relevant railroad on the 800 number posted on the crossing.
If you are a high-gross vehicle, a school bus, or a dangerous chemical vehicle, special laws apply. In some circumstances, long vehicles are not permitted to enter a double crossing if any ONE of them are already flashing. All of the above vehicles must STOP prior to going over any crossing.
As for the ungated crossing, I think you are supposed to STOP, look, listen, then drive across swiftly if you cannot see or hear a train.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not qualified to comment on this, as I have never driven a motor vehicle in the United States and nor am I licensed to do so.
I took driver's ed -- in NYC, which has practically no grade crossings.
Gates are obvious. I'm referring to flashing lights without gates. So I'm supposed to stop and wait until the lights go out? What if it's clear the lights are malfunctioning -- must I still wait for them to go out? (Assume the street is one-way -- the particular one in question is -- so turning around isn't a legal option.)
And I've never seen any cars stop at unprotected crossings (except, of course, when there's a train in the way). Rarely do they even slow down except to ease the bumpy ride. Do trains always make a lot of noise approaching unprotected crossings?
I can help somewhat here since we've got several here in town. Flashing lights means that there IS a train in the vicinity (unless something has shorted the track circuit or the signal is malfunctioning - in New York, DOT requires routine inspection of grade crossings) and that you should STOP, LOOK and LISTEN. (the old X signs actually SAY this on them)
Stop the car, at least 5 feet clear of the rail (trains are 3 feet wider than the rails on either side), look BOTH ways for a train and then LISTEN for a horn. Locomotives are required under FRA rules to blow LONG-LONG-SHORT-LONG as they approach a grade crossing. In a reasonably quiet area, you should hear the diesel motors as well as a horn warning as the train approaches the "intersection."
Vehicular Traffic law expects you to come to a full stop at a railroad crossing if the lights are active though many folks rarely do. These are the Darwin bait that eventually need to be hosed off the nose of a loco some day.
On two or more tracks, as soon as the train clears the intersection, you're NOT done yet - another one may be on another track coming in the SAME or opposite direction.
On two or more tracks, as soon as the train clears the intersection, you're NOT done yet - another one may be on another track coming in the SAME or opposite direction.
This is definitely true. As I recall my last leisure train trip with my dad to/from High Bridge to Newark, I noticed that there were several grade crossings. On NJT locomotives, engineers blow continually the horn that lasts for about 1.5 seconds (IT IS longer than someone may think it is. test on a stopwatch or a clock.)
The engineer keeps doing that until the train has successfully passed the grade crossing. Also, I've noticed that they've been replacing the red flashing lights with LED's instead of incandescent bulbs.
I especially like the grade crossings where NJT trains can go a full 70 mph over, but drivers must be EXTRA careful here.
On our way back to Newark, we were passed by a train towards High Bridge at a reasonable, fast speed on the opposite track. SHORTLY thereafter, our train heading to Newark passed a grade crossing within 5 seconds of the passing train.
I wonder how the people waiting at the crossings felt (esp as a railfan) when they looked at trains that ran in BOTH directions BEFORE the gates opened up! We were moving probably at a good 45-55 mph.
I enjoyed the experience. High Bridge is a very small and peaceful town. But the Comet II car #5665 posed some A/C problems (it was hot) on our way to High Bridge.
Be careful, folks....
Railfan Pete.
Thank you, that makes sense. I've always stopped for flashing lights and have only reluctantly proceeded twice at this particular crossing; my guess is that it malfunctions frequently so others simply ignore it. Now I learn that I can proceed once I determine that no train is approaching.
What about crossings with no lights? Is stopping required, recommended, or neither?
In any case, I do listen for horns.
Unprotecteds are rare and NS and CSX are doing their best to get them CLOSED.
Here's what I do ... on an approach to a grade crossing that isn't on a "major thoroughfare" (trains ALWAYS make a lot of noise when approaching "real" intersections) is I come to a complete stop, look both ways while listening and then proceed. Usually gets me a honk or two but if they want to kiss a loco, they're welcome to go around me.
There's one unprotected in Selkirk along Beaver Dam Road. There's a signal there for trains as it's the final approach to the Selkirk yards from the north from CP-Kenwood into the lead. Trains rarely go through here, so folks are used to just blowing past. At the grade crossing, it's a straight view north (you can see up the tracks about a mile) however on the south side of the intersection, it's a sharp curve through trees ... in the past five years, two people have been killed by locomotives coming around the curve at 8 MPH.
Bottom line, don't mess around IF you want to live.
I usually slow down at unmarkeds because I'm trying to do a bit o fanning. However, on the SRNJ Salem Div. there are many Crossbucks Only crossings. On they day we chased the F-Units we would drive to a crossing and wait for the train to come. Now the trains were ony going about 10mph, but the horns on those things. It was like 140 decibles from where we were standing.
The problem w/ grade crossings is that many people get used to the 10-25 mph slow local train that activates the lights like a minute before the train gets there. They stop, look and go. These people use the in-this-case-correct rule fo thumb to stop, look, listen for the horn and then go. For slow freights it is perfectly safe to go accross the crossing any time b4 the train sounds it's first horn blast. (Legality and competent engineering aside). However on hi-speed lines this is not the case and many people can apply the first case to the second w/ deadly results.
I have ridden on a few tourist lines, one had a switch on a pole which the brakeman would trhow to close the gates. Many many motorists were startled by the gate dropping in their face.
On another line the brakeman would get out and flag the street. Most drivers had not a clue what this dude was doing in the middle of the road with a red flag, and tried to drive around him. "Flagging" on that line required an alert flagman.
We have some unprotected crossings out here, most of the people as use them live right next to them, but the train rides in a bit of a cut at this point and is hard to see. 140db of diesel horn is nice, but with windows up, air on and 64,000db of rock and roll music negates the best loco horns.
Elias
Quiet Riot, cranked to the max, is good music to die to. :)
>>>Quiet Riot, cranked to the max, is good music to die to. :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMEN, to that!
Peace,
ANDEE
Around 1974 when we started traveling out on Long Island more, I noticed several crossings in Suffolk with crossbucks, lights, but NO GATES. One was on Main Street in Holbrook, back when there was a station there, but very infrequent service east of Ronkonkoma- just like today. The other was somewhere in Bayport or Blue Point, and even then there was frequent service on the Montauk Branch east of Babylon. Both crossings were in developed areas with houses, stores or both.
Sometime after that, it was decreed that ALL LIRR crossings would have gates. Even some agricultural crossings on the North Fork have some. This may have been in response to the 1982 Herricks Road disaster- although the presence of gates there didn't mean a thing.
In 1987 and 1989 I rode MN's New Canaan and Danbury branches respectively for the first time. To my amazement, several crossings on both branches lacked gates. Some were in very congested areas of Stamford and Norwalk. Last year I revisited both branches, and there appeared to be gates at every crossing. A good thing too, because the Danbury branch rubs shoulders with US 7 for a long distance.
Around 1989 I drove past Woodcliff Lake on NJT's peak-hour-only Pascack Valley line. No gates. In 1993 I rode the line, no easy feat. Gates.
If memory serves me, some crossings in diesel territory on the Harlem Line- above Brewster North- may have lacked gates, including in downtown Wingdale or Patterson.
A freight branch of Conrail runs smack-dab through SUNY Brockport with several street crossings. One, near the center of campus, had gates installed while I was there. Another, at the edge of town, where there were several switches into business sidings, never did. Any trains that did pass through did so very slowly.
Amtrak runs through Rochester on a different branch of Conrail. There are no crossings in the city proper, but quite a few in the suburbs on both sides. Most had gates, but one, just west of the city limits in a heavily residential township called Gates (!) did not. The ROW, however, seemed built for speed; it was very straight and level. Rochester, like many older industrial mid-sized cities, has many freight railroads running around it, some more active than others. Quite a few crossings in industrial or (rather run-down) residential inner-city areas didn't even have lights, let alone gates- just worn crossbucks.
Light rail seems to have no set pattern. HBLR crosses several streets in Jersey City. Two crossings on the West End branch have full gate assemblies, but at Jersey Avenue and MLK Drive, there are just small, cute yellow diamond signs with a black silhoutte of a light rail car to warn motorists.
SEPTA's Routes 101 and 102 has a fascinating assortment of warning devices on its many crossings. There's full gates; crossbucks with and without lights; regulation red octagonal STOP signs; standard round yellow RXR warning signs; ancient-looking rectangular black-on-white signs with a lot of detailed wording that couldn't be seen clearly from a distance, but resembled historical markers seen at landmarks.
The LIRR freight branch that runs through Garden City still has lights at Clinton Road and Washington Avenue, but a lot of locals falsely believe the tracks are no longer in use. From what I understand, when a train does go through, a flagman has to stop vehicular traffic on both sides of the train.
The "grand junction" track (which is the only connection between North and South Stations in Boston) -- used only for non-revenue moves of MBTA trains and freight -- has a number of grade crossings in Cambridge, MA. My favorite is across Massachusetts Avenue, the busiest road in the city. There are lights and bells, but no gates. The shunt is located 15 feet from the road on either side (I've measured from the insulated joint).
Trains must make a full stop, blow the crossing whistle signal, then proceed at 5mph or less. Sometimes I've seen flagmen; othertimes not. Since traffic backs up here and cars (and buses!) often stop on the tracks, it's fun to watch the faces of drivers when engines are staring right at them sounding the whistle.
(Note - this is also how AMTRAK will get its passenger trains -- in non-revenue service -- to North Station to serve the new Portland route, which begins this fall.
I always thought that crossing was hilarious. I've seen freight comes through there, too. The way that route goes, along industrial property, the track could be depressed into a ditch with Mass. Av as an overpass. Of course that would take $$$ (although not a huge amount).
That right of way is proposed to become part of the "urban ring" transit around Boston. Here's the info.
Who owns that ROW?
It sounds like a nice plan currently lacking key political support. It is also handicapped by the Big Dig (where other states and communities will say "You had your turn; now it's ours. Get back to the end of the line...")
Around 1989 I drove past Woodcliff Lake on NJT's peak-hour-only Pascack Valley line. No gates. In 1993 I rode the line, no easy feat. Gates.
How did you get back?
T'weren't easy- I got the first train out of Hoboken, probably the 4:00. At Spring Valley, I got a Red & Tan bus back to PA. It took about an hour and a half.
Riding the Pascack Valley in the morning is even harder, but being the consummate railfan willing to do anything for my art, I did it in early 1995. This meant driving in predawn darkness from Queens up to Spring Valley, parking on a side street with no restrictions between Route 59 and the Thruway, walking five blocks uphill on Main Street and barely catching the last inbound train, the 8:00.
It was then a simple matter to railfan all day and then get the first afternoon train back.
Despite Pascack's extremely limited schedule, it seems very popular. The lots at most stations above Westwood looked extremely full. The village of Spring Valley is alternately campaigning for more parking or less, either way to relieve traffic congestion.
I'd estimate that about half of the grade crossings in Champaign-Urbana, IL are unprotected (no gates, lights, or bells). They're all on minor side streets, of course, but they're there.
If the RR starts losinglawsuits over them due to accidents, they may receive gates and lights.
What about crossings with no lights? Is stopping required, recommended, or neither?
Trust me on this one, you will never find a crossing with NO lights. There are certain standards need be kept by Congress and the Driving Rulebook that REQUIRE fully functioning (not by a short-circuit) bells, lights, and barriers on each grade crossing in America. The many grade crossing incidents has forced the government to make these laws.
Also, some community town people out south and west of the U.S. has decided that the trains HORN (when approaching a grade crossing) is so LOUD and ANNOYING to them, so as to stop those engineers from blowing those horns. Congress has once again depleted this thought, but gave some advantage to the town people, that trains should honk for a shorter amount of time (thia also was an issue around a year ago) when passing grade crossings.
But I NEVER think trains should go through ANY grade crossing without the single sound of its horn. It just doesn't make sense.
This issue, along with 3 other issues in my preceding posting were all to the thanks of the reference of: www.trains.com NewsWire page. Capturing rail news across North America.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Pete --
at BI subdivision MP 66.55 on the B&O Mainline, a CSX crossing over Henry County Road F, near Hamler, OH, has no lights.
Perhaps you have lived all your life and done all your fanning in the "city" -- crossing with no lights are peppered all over Ohio.
Lexcie
Trust me on this one, you will never find a crossing with NO lights.
I rode the local freight train in Salem, NJ on August 3; there are numerous crossings with no lights in Salem.
Also, "on the SRNJ Salem Div. there are many Crossbucks Only crossings." - Jersey Mike #251071
>>> Trust me on this one, you will never find a crossing with NO lights. <<<
Pete;
After that assertion we can no longer trust anything you say about railroads. And the more forcefully you state something, the more likely it is to be wrong. Don't be a know it all trying to impress others with your knowledge. Learn from others here who do have correct information.
Tom
I remember seeing grade crossings with no lights or gates as a kid, on the Grand Trunk Western Railroad in Michigan. Now, that was back in the 60s, and I haven't seen that stretch in 35 years. It may be different today.
Here in metro Denver, they've eliminated all grade crossings along Santa Fe Drive from I-25 all the way down to Douglas County. It took roughly 20 years to depress either the tracks or intersecting roads, but it was well worth it. Not so much for safety (although that's important, too), but it eliminates the hassle of having to deal with coal trains along the Santa Fe corridor all day long. Add to that, because the new southwest light rail extension has no grade crossings, it makes for a high-speed, limited stop run.
"Trust me on this one, you will never find a crossing with NO lights"
BULLSHIT!
There are litterally thousands of railroad crossings across the United States with no lights or barriers, just a old-fashioned wooden crossing signs.
Railroad companies in very rural areas see no cost/benefit need to put up the expensive crossing guards, while in urban areas they want city governments to either authorize the barriers or close crossings which don't have them. But the railroads themselves have no power to close non-electronic signalled crossing, and only state-maintained roads in very rural areas tend to get the gates and lights.
There are probably 10's if not 100's of thousands of light-less crossings.
Railroad companies in very rural areas see no cost/benefit need to put up the expensive crossing guards, while in urban areas they want city governments to either authorize the barriers or close crossings which don't have them. But the railroads themselves have no power to close non-electronic signalled crossing, and only state-maintained roads in very rural areas tend to get the gates and lights.
I noticed on the busy CSX main line accross Ohio they have installed gates and lights at all the crossings, even the really rural ones.
"But the railroads themselves have no power to close non-electronic signalled crossing, and only state-maintained roads in very rural areas tend to get the gates and lights. "
Actually, out here the railroads have been unilaterally closing such crossings by the hundreds. Many of these are on private or back roads, and not on improved (dirt) county roads. Some farmers are right pissed when they find that they must drive two to six miles out of the way to cross the tracks.
Elias
I should have been more specific -- within cities railroads have no right to close crossings. They want to, rather than put up the arms and lights, but the local residents, along with emergency service personnel, usually protest when it leaves a big gap between crossings.
Trust me on this one, you will never find a crossing with NO lights.
Recommendation: engage brain before putting mouth (or fingers) in gear. It reduces the risk of foot-in-mouth disease, of which you seem to have contracted a pretty serious case.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry, I meant to say in a specific geographical area. I know a grade crossing where there are no lights present and NOT even a BELL and not even a BARRIER. That track is semi-active, and has seldom grass growing on it. I've never seen any ENGINES in that grade crossing, but I've periodically seen railcars from "CV" and "CN" move from time to time, but no one ever notices.
This is located in Edison, NJ, and the people here don't even worry about it anymore.
Must've slipped my mind...
Railfan Pete.
Pete, Pete, Pete. "Must've slipped my mind..."?! Your earlier claim was not that you didn't know of any -- it's that there were none anywhere in the U.S. (Remmeber? And we were all supposed to trust you on it?) You cannot make very broad claims based on the very limited experience you obviously have. (Well, you can, but they're often going to be wrong.)
You've already lost all credibility here by assuring us you know what you're talking about when you're just guessing -- in this thread and in many others. There's nothing wrong with not knowing everything -- not many of us do -- but please do yourself a favor by presenting as fact only what you know to be fact. Post speculations, if you like, but identify them as such. Don't you think you would have gotten kinder responses had you posted, "I've never seen an unprotected grade crossing. Do they really still exist anywhere in the U.S.?" rather than your assurances of an absolute falsehood?
I am sure Selkirk's take on this is far superior, since he is a full time professional -- but I thought I would just throw in my 2 cents:
$0.01: At unprotected crossings, ALL vehicles should come to a complete stop, look and listen before proceeding. I don't know if the state laws require this, but it's a wise thing to do. For one, on Metra's UP-Northwest line in Illionis, there are various crossings where the municipality had banned the trains from using their horns. Although technically since the trains are governed by the FRA and still MUST use their horns against the local bylaws (with the local laws overidden by Federal law), in practice sometimes the engineers will respect the town's wishes (technically an FRA violation). For that reason, looking down the line is almost as important as listening.
$0.02: Light malfunctioning -- call the 800 number posted on the crossing, or you could reverse down the one way street, which would be perfectly legal.
$0.025: If the lights are flashing at an ungated crossing, you should also stop unless you are already on the crossing.
Beware Lexcie ... my "professional" railroading was with the NYCTA. I just live in a railroad town with a lot of buddies who work the railroads, so I get PLENTY of cab time though not as much as I used to get when Gonerail was around. I've volunteered for the OP Lifesaver shows so I get to do those when it's that time of the year to make the rounds at schools and county fairs ... but just so folks know, I'm NOT a railroader and haven't been for years ...
As to "silent running" ... waivers are granted if curtain-type crossing signals, four quadrant fencing or other approved obstructions are provided to make it difficult for drivers to get around the gates. States can modify this as well but the railroads simply prefer that the crossings be eliminated entirely and replaced with bridges, detours or underpasses but won't pay for them.
If a community has an incident though, the horn blows regardless for years afterward ...
While we are on the subject of grade crossing safety, I quote here a passage from Tuch's "Hot Times on the High Iron", about a grade crossing incident, in Chicago, IL:
On this particular evening, we were discussing the most important things to a couple of teenage boys, girls, our spin on the meaning of life and the future among other things. We heard the whistle of an approaching northbound Milwaukee Road train. He was approaching the road crossing at Sauk Trail, which was a little ways to the south. We positioned ourselves to see the train as it approached the 26th Street road crossing. We wanted to observe, as this crossing only had crossbucks, no gates or flashers. Periodically, the Milwaukee or CHTT would smack a car at this crossing. Neither railroad went very fast through here. The Milwaukee operated at about 15 mph and the CHTT at 10 mph. We joked about the possibility of actually seeing a collision happen tonight although not actually expecting one to occur.
So there we are watching as the train approached. He came across the interlocking and diamonds of the CHTT line that diverged from the parallel route and crossed the B&OCT. The Engineer had the headlight burning brightly and was whistling as he approached 26th Street. As the train closed in on the crossing, here came a car headed east on 26th Street. The driver made no effort to even slow down, he just kept zooming along. I quickly realized that he was not going to make it and stood up saying something to the effect of "Holy shit!"
As the trains lead unit GP20 #974 started on the crossing, the motorist likewise started on the crossing. We all know the results when two moving objects attempt to occupy the same spot of real estate at the precise same moment. All of a sudden there was this huge crash and the car began to turn sideways. We immediately began running towards the scene, which was about five hundred feet or so from where we were sitting. I can recall us even commenting that we could not believe what we had just witnessed. It certainly wasn't a funny idea anymore.
As we arrived, the car, an older white, Pontiac station wagon was sitting on the opposite side of the road. It had spun almost sideways and knocked over the crossbucks on the opposite side of the crossing. The passenger side door was pushed in all the way up to where the driver was sitting. They guy was still alive although pretty seriously injured. He was spitting out teeth and had blood flowing from numerous locations. He was apparently in shock, or perhaps under the influence or maybe both as he kept asking for his comb. Then he said, "Call my wife and tell her I'm not gonna be home."
In the meantime, there were several motorists in their cars sitting there watching this all occur. They were all heading west on 26th Street. Not one of them even got out of their cars to see what had happened or if the guy was alright. It wasn't until after we arrived and started to talk to the motorist in the demolished car did any of them get out of their cars. I told one of them to go over to the house that was just east of the crossing and tell them to call the fire department. The guy seemed concerned because he didn't know the people. I told him "I do and they are alright." Their son was another partner in crime of both Jimmy and myself.
The train was stopped by now and one of the crewmembers had reached the scene. Within a few minutes, we could hear the sirens of the emergency response people. There was a firehouse about two miles away, so they were here rather quickly. Unfortunately, they pulled up on the opposite side of the tracks and had to turn around, go down to the next crossing to the north (22nd Street) and then come back around to the east side of the train.
By now, all kinds of people were standing around. I still find it amazing that two teenaged kids were the first to try to help the guy. We knew better than to attempt to try to remove him from the car. The car was seriously damaged and I don't think we could have if we wanted to anyway.
The Conductor arrived after walking up from the caboose. We spoke with him and gave him our names and addresses as witnesses to the event. They guy was removed from the car and hauled off to the hospital. The police also took our information as witnesses and told us we would likely be hearing from all sorts of people over this entire episode.
We departed shortly thereafter, called it a night and headed for home.
Several weeks later, I was heading over to Jimmy's again. He wasn't home, so I was going to bum around for awhile. As I left his house, I spotted a stopped Milwaukee Road southbound. There were no engines tied onto it, just a cut of cars and the caboose. I spotted somebody sitting in the caboose and he had a familiar look. So I parked the car, got out and walked down the hill to talk to him. He was the Conductor of the train that mixed it up with the car a few weeks earlier. He allowed me to board the caboose and we began to talk.
I asked where his engines were and he told me they had stalled the hill. The head end crew had taken the head portion of the train down to Faithorn Yard and would come back for the rest. I later learned this was what was known as doubling the hill. we discussed the events of May 14th. He told of their getting a knuckle when the train stopped as well as some other problems. More on that a little later.
I also learned the Conductor's name, Bobby Bruns. For some unknown reason, this name would stick with me for years. We talked about the railroad and of course, I inquired as to how I might get hired. He mentioned that the Milwaukee was looking to close down the operation at Faithhorn. But he did give me information as to where to go to apply anyway.
When the power returned, tied on and made ready to depart, I asked for a little ride. Bobby consented but told me it could not be far. It was all of about two city blocks before I hopped off, but it was fun. It was also something virtually nobody else I knew at that point in my life had ever done.
Some folks from the Milwaukee Road Claim Department paid a visit to my house to interview me in the following weeks. They told me of the serious nature of the motorist's injuries and the fact that he was now suing the railroad. I agreed to be a witness on behalf of the railroad as did Jimmy. We had to give statements to the Claim folks, but we were never formally deposed. I later learned the railroad had offered him some cash to settle and the motorist agreed. I was told the amount, but will not reveal it here. It was on the four-figure range though, so he didn't exactly get rich.
-Tuch
If you cannot get your vehicle to move, you are supposed to get out of the vehicle and evacuate your passengers. Now, I believe traffic laws require you to simply watch your car being run over by the train -- by this stage the engineer could probably see you anyway, so in this case you should get well clear of the crossing -- run down the road, so that the debris from the impact doesn't hurt you.
If you're too late, you should IMMEDIATELY evacuate the vehicle and START RUNNING TOWARDS THE TRAIN (obviously not on the track which the train is traveling on because you'll get hit!) ON THE SIDE of the ROAD. Yes, you are advised to watch your car get hit (hopefully the engineer can sight this far away enough and put the train into emergency, although 99.5% of the time, a train CANNOT reach below 30-35mph even when put into emergency from the time of engineer's reaction) BECAUSE then you'll know which way the DEBRIS is flowing.
If someone runs AWAY from the train, they will still be excessively hit by debris, because the debris flies AWAY, and to BOTH SIDES of the train, but keenly NOT TOWARDS THE DIRECTION of the train. So start running towards it. but not AT IT!
If you are a high-gross vehicle, a school bus, or a dangerous chemical vehicle, special laws apply. In some circumstances, long vehicles are not permitted to enter a double crossing if any ONE of them are already flashing. All of the above vehicles must STOP prior to going over any crossing.
The vehicle types you've mentioned are required by LAW to stop, look both ways, put their emergency flashing lights on prior to arriving the grade crossing, crossing it safely, then resuming speed then shutting the emergency lights off.
These vehicles MUST BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL when crossing grades as some are even powerful enough to derail and stop the train. I remember reading a horrific news article on www.trains.com about how an engineer of a CSX or a NS train towards --- (this was about a year ago, I forgot most of the destinations and geographical details) which COLLIDED INTO A LOG TRUCK. Unfortunately, the TRAIN DERAILED and the engineer lost his life. Experts say that the impact that the train had on the engineer took him. (By this, he must've been thrashed around) A very sad story, but THE LOG TRUCK DRIVER WAS NOT DIRECTLY FINED OR FOUND GUILTY OF THIS INCIDENT! UNBELIEVEABLE! Further action was taken, but I missed the final news.
Log trucks are especially a HAZARD to all trains and grade crossings, and if one gets stuck... even a 12 million pound freight train may most likely be able to derail on a 12 ton log truck. (Just estimating)as what has happened in this NewsWire article.
Also, a school bus down in Louisiana was struck by a freighter, dragged it about 40-200 feet, almost split it in half, and crushed and removed the wheels that were part of the bus. (It was a long bus, not a 16-seater bus) Unfortunately, the seven children on board the bus lost their lives, or were treated in critical condition at a local hospital. (I have mentioned before, this story was about a year ago, I don't remember fully the geographical details).
I also recall a tractor-trailer being struck by a freighter and gnashed the half of the truck.
(All of these stories happened in the vicinity of around a year ago.) Also, don't replacement engineers fill in for the route if a train strikes a vehicle but is STILL on the tracks? I know this happens if someone gets run over by a NJT train. (Please don't think about it, it's not a very pleasant sight)
Well, that's it for now... Have to get sleep...
Railfan Pete.
One answer:
I believe that FRA requires their crew to be relieved of their duties if they suffer a fatality on the line -- 3 days (72 hours) at home with full pay. This also applies to the conductor if the conductor had to go and investigate the front of the train and/or search for bodies. Macho, young male engineers often return to work the next day, but they will not be allowed to work unless the railroad is prepared to violate FRA regulations. Sometimes, however, by signing on and sitting in the crewbase doing something or talking to someone (as opposed to sitting at home and facing the wall thinking about the victim) helps the engineer to come out of shock.
Another question:
When a loco hits someone, and requires to be hosed down, does the front of the loco requires to be covered prior to movement to the yard? Are there speed limits on those kind of movements?
I believe you're correct. I don't know the complete details of NJT engineering replacements in this situation, but the engineer (driver) MUST STOP the train by putting it into emergency.
Also, (thanks to Bob Scheurle for this answer) the head conductor onboard the NJT train radios the police, and the police arrive on the scene, then a replacement engineer is sent to finish the rest of the leg. (This hasn't happened in a matter of a long period of time, but anything can happen, on any part of day.)
For your last question, what does:
1) hosed down mean?
2) "front of the loco. requires to be covered" mean?
Railfan Pete.
(1) In reference to SelkirkTMO's earlier message, if debris (i.e. body parts, blood, etc) covers the front of the locomotive after an incident, a yard crew would need to take a hose pipe to it before it next goes out. The question I am asking relates to the move from the incident scene to the nearest location where there is water supply.
(2) In order to disguise the unsighty front end of the locomotive after an incident, it may require some form of temporary covering, in the form of perhaps a black or green plastic sheet.
There is indeed a freight rail yard near many grade crossings in Hammond, IN. This is indeed the railroad capital of the U.S., espcially because it's in the vicinity of the Chicagoland area.
It's so busy in Hammond, that on one street, you see a grade crossing with two tracks, then RIGHT DOWN THE SAME STREET you see FIVE TRACKS at a grade crossing! I believe all five are active.
Also, there is a "Dead" (EXEMPT) rail on another road, the barriers are removed here, the light coverings are crooked, and grass is growing on the tracks.
There is an instance of an EXEMPT (non-used) railroad when traveling way south of Route 1 in the Edison area. Everything is restored and intact, except the lights are blocked out by other red-colored glass panels.
: )
Railfan Pete.
If your in a low speed switching area you can usually make do with a single island circut.
What you are describing is not a crossing malfunction - it is simply a limitation of its design.
>>> Now, surely everyone knows driving across a grade crossing when lights are flashing is unsafe? <<<
Using the thought process exhibited earlier in this thread, that the more you do to try to make things safer, the less people watch out for themselves, maybe there should be no gates at RR crossings or lights either. After all, if people knew that a train could approach without warning at any time the would be more careful crossing the tracks.
If that seems less than sensible, how do you reconcile it to the previous posts suggesting the TA should not have door sensors, or there is no need for swimming pool alarms.
Tom
You're stretchingthe point. People should not assume a comfort zone just because there are additional safety devices in place. Even at a railroad crossing with lights and guards, a driver is stupid if they don't look both ways before crossing the tracks, because those things can malfunction -- maybe only once in 100,000 times, but hey, people with worse odds win the lottery once in a while, too.
Similarly, people shouldn't assume that the door sensors on subway cars are going to prevent draggings, because as a Daily News story last week showed, a considerable number of the draggings have occurred on non-Redbird cars, which are equipped with the sensors.
Before you start looking at the daily news too hard as a source of valuable information, look to the NYCT and its ways of defining incidents. While I can't get into the specifics of incident reporting at this time, I can tell you that there are incidents that are classified as drags that are not would not actually be viewed as drags by the general public. So when you see a figure in the daily news that there have been XX drags this year, not all of them have actually resulted in customers being dragged.
As long as morons shove their arm or leg or other possession into a closing subway car door someone will be dragged. I say conductors for a few days operate according to school car regulation and "Allow customers AMPLE time to board and exit train" and watch train Throughput get shot to hell you'll never get 2 minute headway to work without some poor soul getting slammed with a closing trains doors. Lexington Avenue which has some pretty tight headways why do people still hold doors open? the Flushing line has 90sec headways...
I'm knows as the paranoid parent around here. We had our first child stillborn, and I couldn't face losing another. I'm ALWAYS yelling at ALL the kids not to climb on things. I STILL cook on the back burner, and never look away when the kids are around. Seatbelts? Always. And we will NOT take more than one additional kid with us, because we are worried about the airbags. And, I still insist that my nine and seven year olds hold my hand when we cross the street. In short, most people would say I'm crazy, but in the opposite way of the people Train Dude talks about.
And, I'm afraid of the doors. You keep you kids back from the plaform, for fear of falling or being pushed. Then other people get off, still other people push past you on. Off peak, those doors close very fast. Have the kid behind? What happens to a four year old left on the platform? Push them in front? What if YOU are cut off? Parent/child TERROR.
People may be idiots, but you don't have to be an idiot to be worried about you young child being caught in the doors. Perhaps I should know better, but I don't have those worries in our car, or on a bus.
Growing up I had a friend who's parents were so paranoid, they removed the rear inside door handles from their family car. I thought they were crazy back in the 50s. Not any more. I don't think your an idiot at all. If we don't protect them, who will.
My point is, you don't have to be an idiot to have your kids get dragged. If you are one person, you are either on or off the train. You'll only get stuck if you intentionally block the doors.
When you have two kids with you, it's not that simple. Especially with two people deciding to take the nice spots right in front of the door. You are trying to squeeze through, with children either in front of you, behind you, or both, and the door starts to close. What do you do? What does the child do when he or she sees himself getting cut off from a parent?
It IS dangerous for those with young children getting on or off a train.
When I travel with my grandchildren, ages 9, 6 & 4, I board first, place my back against one panel and the palm of my hand against the opposing panel. They enter by passing under my arm. If others feel inconvenienced by my blocking the doorway, "oh well!". Precious cargo requires special handling.
(When I travel with my grandchildren, ages 9, 6 & 4, I board first, place my back against one panel and the palm of my hand against the opposing panel. They enter by passing under my arm. If others
feel inconvenienced by my blocking the doorway, "oh well!". Precious cargo requires special handling.)
That's a thought. If possible, I try to march the kids to the front of center of the train, right next to the T/O or conductor. But yes, if a train comes in, we try to get on it.
BTW, my home station, Prospect Park 15th Street on the F, is curved. We enter at the rear stair (heading for Manhattan). The conductor can't see back that far around the pillars.
Larry, I don't have any problems with new safety devices being installed anywhere. My concern is when people feel they don't have to take responsability for their own actions because of either lack of attention or because they assume the safety device is in place (and as Felix Unger once said, "When you assume...).
When airbags first became standard equipment in automobiles and other passenger vehicles, I remember the auto companies and the federal government had to get the word out to people that just because there's an airbag in the car doesn't mean you don't have to wear your seatbelt anymore. To me it's the same thing with trains -- Redbird, R-142, R-68, whatever, don't abandon your own responsability for personal safety or the safety of your kids just because something is supposed to be in place (and then certainly don't go off and sue because you couldn't do what for the previous 90-year history of the NYC subway's electically operated doors people had little or no problem understanding what to and not to do).
>>> Off peak, those doors close very fast. Have the kid behind? What happens to a four year old left on the platform? Push them in front? What if YOU are cut off? <<<
When traveling with children, you make sure each has ID on them including your name, address, and phone number. Include your pager or cell phone number also if applicable. The children must be trained in advance about what to do if they are separated from the adult. If they are on a platform, they should stay there, back from the edge and wait for the adult to return. If they get separated on a train (with the adult left on the platform) they should get off at the next station and wait on the platform for the adult to catch up on the next train. And finaly, if all else fails, locate a uniformed police officer. When the children know in advance what to do, it reduces their fear and anxiety.
Tom
Sadly, at least some jurors really do believe the magic money fairy funds the MTA's operations, so they give the plaintiff his or her settlement for doing something people 20, 30, 40 years ago would have never been so stupid to do, because there were no door sensors on the R-10s or the Low Vs or the Standards, and -- suprise! -- for some reason there also weren't hundreds of New Yorkers being dragged by subway cars ever day.
I wonder ... maybe there were many dragging incidents in past decades, but they didn't get as much attention due to the fact that people weren't so litigation-happy back then. I'd be interested in seeing some statistics.
It's possible, but if you go back and look at the microfilms of the Daily News or New York Mirror from the 1920s through 1950s, you'll find today's Post or News aren't all that different. Those papers went for the gory stories and photos, so if there had been any severe dragging incidents with injuries and/or deaths, they wouldn't have hesitated to have gone with the story. For incidents where a person was merely dragged briefly before the train stopped and there were no injuries, there may be a case that the press today is more fixated on those incidents, because of the lawsuits that generally follow.
Is it not also entirely possible that there was some fundamental difference in the design of the doors from decades ago that made undetected dragging incidents much less likely?
Is it possible that the current double leaf designs give rise to the possiblilty of a false closed signal which was not possible in the single leaf design used favored by the IRT and BMT?
Most of the case law regarding rapid transit passengers not being able to exit or enter cars occurred during the gate car days. So much for the theory that people are more litigation happy today.
Of course you already know that with the double leaf door opening, there is a greater chance for a false closed signal than with the single leaf system. However, when the IND opened for business in the 1930s, they only had double leaf doors. The IRT began to get double leaf doors with the R-12s and the BMT with the R-11s ( I believe). Yet the problem of drags did not reach epidemic proportions until the late 80s. So double-leaf doors existed 30 - 50 years before the problem of drags sprang up.
The conductor operated the doors from between the cars on the R1 through R14's. He did not turn a key to signal the operator that the doors were closed. He simply pushed down on a switch to close the doors.
Was there anything different in the logic and wiring to implement it on these cars than on the cars that are trapping passengers in the doors?
>>> The conductor operated the doors from between the cars on the R1 through R14's. He did not turn a key to signal the operator that the doors were closed. He simply pushed down on a switch to close the doors. <<<
The C/R had a better vantage point to see the doors when he was between the cars. Also, modern C/Rs may pay more attention to the indicator lights within their cab rather than what they can see outside the cab.
Tom
The C/R had a better vantage point to see the doors when he was between the cars.
Quite irrelevant. Regardless of the C/R's diligence or lack thereof, view or lack thereof, today's C/R must turn a key in addition to pressing the proper buttons and verifying that the indicator lights are on before the T/O receives indication. There was no such key on the R1-R14's. This suggests that different logic and implementation distinguish today's cars from the first double leaf door cars.
>>> Quite irrelevant. Regardless of the C/R's diligence or lack thereof, view or lack thereof, today's C/R must turn a key in addition to pressing the proper buttons and verifying that the indicator lights are on before the T/O receives indication <<<
It is relevant to the increase in drags if the C/R is spending more time looking at in cab indicators and operating a key rather than watching the doors as they close. He/she wants to get the train out of the station as quickly as possible, but now has more to do inside the cab to get the train to move. If the C/R's attention is diverted just as the doors close, but then he/she looks as the train starts to move, sees the person caught in the door and stops the train, it saves the passenger, but too late to avoid the drag.
Tom
Gee.... I remember the LIRR, before the days of the M1s.... before Merrick was an elevated station.... before elevated platforms...
The conductor would move through the train when it left Freeport. He would open all of the doors, he would raise the floor bridge exposing the steps, and when he moved to the next car, I would climb down the steps, and stanting on the bottom step, holding on to the grab iron, I would lean out of the train as it rushed into the station.
Try *that* on the nasty old MTA!
Elias
Try THAT passing a telephone pole.
-Hank
The C/R on the R1-R14's determined, if there were activity on the outside of the cars and closed the doors if there were no activity. Today's C/R does the same thing.
The C/R on the R1-R14's took no further action. There were no indicator lights within his view to determine if the system "thought" that all the doors had closed. He had no access to a brake to stop the train if it had started. The closest emergency brake was inside the car, behind the cab because the cabs were usually locked. The buzzer to the motorman was not even within easy reach. It was located within the storm door jam on the outside of the car. This system relied solely on the door sensors and the logic that determined that all sensors deemed that the doors had been closed.
Regarding diverting C/R's attention during door closing - what about the plight of the BMT Standard conductors. They had to fight for standing room inside the car. :-)
On the BMT Standard the C/R had to use three buttons to close the doors. First, he closed the rear set (everything behind the center doors in the operating car), the the forward set (everything in front of the center doors), and only then did he close the center doors.
Since the indicator light did not go on until the center doors were closed, and the C/R had a good opportunity to look both ways, there were not many drags with the old Standards.
What did happen a number of times was that a passenger's package, briefcase, etc., got wedged in the closing door, keeping it open. The only "remedy" was to empty the train, and then run it to the yard with the object jammed in the door, where it was extracted. Imagine the delays that occurred at rush hour.
The C/R did, however, have to fight for space with the passengers -- especially when crossing over from side to side.
The BMT standards did not give a "false positive" indicate that the doors were closed when they were not. They did not because they were single leaf doors. The current dragging problem with false positives and the "door sensor" solution is unique to the double leaf doors.
What did happen a number of times was that a passenger's package, briefcase, etc., got wedged in the closing door, keeping it open.
I'd assume that the package got the worst of it. Those doors moved like a bear trap closing. Something would have to get wedged in the door slip to prevent those doors from moving. I've seen conductors successfully open the glass door panels and push them shut.
The C/R did, however, have to fight for space with the passengers -- especially when crossing over from side to side.
Comedian Buddy Hackett used to do a sketch where he was a BMT conductor on the standards. I hope it has been preserved somewhere. Those conductors had character - they had to look you straight in the eye when they closed the door on you. :-)
The doors on the BMT standards opened and closed a bit on the slow side, as I recall. Perhaps this was a characteristic on the rebuit units, as these are the only ones I rode on. Once in a while, you'd get an improperly adjusted door leaf which would whip open and slam shut. I also recall there being very little delay between the time the doors in the front section of the train closed and the motorman applied power. My guess is the conductor would close the center doors at his post immediately after closing the front section.
... or just give it a "three finger salute" ... dunno if you knew this or not, but NYCTA conductors of that vintage *DID* have opposable thumbs. Most of them anyway. :)
I associate three-finger salutes with the Boy Scouts.:-)
The "three finger salute" was also adopted by Microsoft ... ctrl-alt-del keys ... musta rid a standard in Bill Gates' youth. :)
The C/R on the R1-R14's took no further action. There were no indicator lights within his view to
determine if the system "thought" that all the doors had closed. He had no access to a brake to
stop the train if it had started. The closest emergency brake was inside the car, behind the cab
because the cabs were usually locked. The buzzer to the motorman was not even within easy
reach. It was located within the storm door jam on the outside of the car. This system relied solely
on the door sensors and the logic that determined that all sensors deemed that the doors had been
closed.
The part about the emergency brake is incorrect. Examine a picture
of the front of an R1-9 car carefully and you'll see that there is
a pull cord on the outside, near the cab window, easily reached
by the conductor while standing on the little platforms.
There was a conductor's indication light on these cars, located
on the same panel above the storm door as the buzzer and lighting
momentary switch. It was not terribly visible from the conductor's
operating position, nor was the buzzer accessible.
The conductors had a much higher vantage point and could clearly
see all of the guard lights even on a curved station. That
was a plus for safety. They were also generally more clueful
than today's crop (no offense to anyone in particular, that's just
a statement of the aggregate).
On the minus side, besides the lack of a buzzer, the lack of the MDC
switch to release indication to the motorman, and the lack of
any interlock to prevent the m/m from taking power with the doors
open (on pre R-10 cars), there was also the door sensor itself.
It was a rather crude affair with a disk switch operated by
an aux rod off the main door operating rod. The tolerance was
very poor and a fairly large object could get wedged in the door
and not be detected, depending on how much lost motion there was
in the linkages. This goes for the R1-9, Lo-V, AB, D types, etc.,
single door or double door, no difference.
If these cars were running in regular service today we'd likely
have a dragging every day.
The point I am making is that logic and wiring for the older cars had to be different than today's Redbirds because the door closing procedure is different. You've confirmed this in your post based on your intimate knowledge of the car design. I am delighted that my theoretical approach and your hands-on approach agree on this point.
Within the last two weeks Mr. Train Dude posted a description of the problem that the "door sensor" mechanisms retrofitted onto the newer non-redbird fleet were designed to overcome. His explanation went along these lines. There is a "push-back" feature on each leaf that permits it to be pushed back around 3", without losing "door closed" indication, once the door leaf closes. Suppose a small obstruction prevents one leaf (A) from closing but permits the other leaf (B) to close. The obstruction is then pushed back onto the closed leaf (B). This action permits the previously open leaf (A) to close. Both leaves now give permanent closed indication but the obstruction is still lodged between the door leaves. Clearly, a two-leaf door design is required for such a "failure" to occur. It is this distinction that has led to my decision to concentrate on the R1 and later door designs, not the tolerances of the individual door closed sensors. (The question as to whether this is a significant failure mode remains unanswered).
Your description on the lack of interlocks, etc. on the early two-leaf cars indicates that some major design changes have been made in this area since the introduction of the R1's. Perhaps, you could enlighten us as to the nature of these changes and when they were introduced. Mr. Train Dude stated in a recent post that the internal door closing wiring was virtually unchanged between the R9's and the pre-overhaul R42's. Is that true?
The part about the emergency brake is incorrect. Examine a picture of the front of an R1-9 car carefully and you'll see that there is a pull cord on the outside, near the cab window, easily reached by the conductor while standing on the little platforms.
This does jog my memory. Before I posted that response I looked at pictures of the R1/9's and couldn't find it. I'll have to look at the real article in a museum.
There was a conductor's indication light on these cars, located on the same panel above the storm door as the buzzer and lighting momentary switch. It was not terribly visible from the conductor's operating position, nor was the buzzer accessible.
I was aware of the indication light. Eyes on the back of the conductor's head would not have helped. The only way those lights were visible were when viewed from the storm door sill. Both indicator lights could not be viewed simultaneously.
The conductors had a much higher vantage point and could clearly see all of the guard lights even on a curved station.
That really depends on the curve, concave or convex. The bad way is the curve at the South Ferry outer loop. The conductor's vision of far car guard lights is obscured by the closer car bodies. The conductor's position does not affect this very much.
the lack of any interlock to prevent the m/m from taking power with the doors open ...
A story told to me by some Stuyvesant HS students in the mid 1950's comes to mind. They were forever holding doors and finding ways to torment the operating personnel. The story goes that they held a door open but the train started. Suddenly the conductor came running into the car and yelled at them to the effect that they didn't think the train could move with the doors open did they. I'd always discounted this story, perhaps it really happened.
Yes, the motorman and conductor indication circuit is different
on the pre R-15 cars but not the individual door sensing circuits.
Train Dude is correct in that the door sensors on an R36 are
basically the same as on an R1. In both cases, there are mechanical
switches that close when the door operating motor has reached
the closed and locked position. There are no sensors on the door
panel itself. Therefore, any loose fasteners or lost motion in
the door linkage rods will lead to a fuzzy zone where indication
can be received with the door open. The pushback is a safety
feature. If the door sensor does fail and you are being dragged,
it allows you to pull yourself out of the locked door. The
pushback limit is not 3". It should be much smaller. TD could
give you the exact spec. Part of the regular inspection procedure
is to slip a block of a specific size into the doors and verify
that the door does not give indication.
The R1-14 emergency brake cord has a red knob and it hangs to the
left of the end route sign.
As an aside, all the door "failures" that I witnessed as a passenger for the R1-R42 doors were the failure to give indication when the doors were closed. Again, using the term "failure" to mean giving indication when it should not or not giving indication when it should. Not closing completely and not giving indication would not be a "failure" in this context.
I appreciate you explanation regarding the shortcomings of an indirect sensors used up through the pre-overhaul R42's. Similar problems are not uncommon a non-railroad context.
The major question is how were the sensor signals used? The question is: after the doors had closed and indication was received and then somebody pushed a door leaf back to its nominal 3 inch limit, then was closed door indication lost? Mr. Bigedirtmanl has written that it would have been lost on the Q-cars. This is a much different animal - what about the double leaf cars?
Thanks for the pointer regarding the location of the emergency brake. I did find them on a few pictures, thanks to your hint. On problem was that the MTA did not mask the cord or handle, when they painted them silver/blue. It's my fault, I spent too much time looking out the front window and not enough time watching the conductor. :-)
"The question is: after the doors had closed and indication was received and then somebody pushed a door leaf back to its nominal 3 inch limit, then was closed door indication lost?"
On all of the R type cars it would not be lost. Once the doors were locked, either by a lock-bar on the older operators or moving over center on the newer ones the doors could not be pushed open. However, once they were locked, because of the pushback feature, each panel could be pushed open 1.5 inches. Despite the opening, because the doors were locked, the indication was not lost.
Well, TD says the pushback is 1.5" per leaf, so I'll accept that
as fact. I didn't remember it being so much. At any rate, the
pushback happens because there is a spring in the coupling between
the door operator and the door. You would not lose indication
because the door operator, which is where the sensor is, will be
able to reach the closed&locked position.
I'm pretty sure the R1-9 had the same type of pushback system.
Don't know about the ABs and Ds. The Qs were modified so many
times I've lost track. Seems to me when they were built in 1939
they got IRT-style single-leaf doors with sensitive edges, but I'm
not sure. The Lo-Vs, as I said earlier, were retrofitted with
sensitive edges in the 1930s. The solid rubber was replaced with
a hollow piece which floats on the door panel, attached by springs.
As originally designed and installed, pressing in the edge would
drop the indication, and cause the door to recycle if it had not
already reached the locked position. When those things were disabled
later on by the TA, the indication circuits were not handled
consistently, so it was possible on many Lo-Vs to push the door edge
back a considerable distance and still get indication.
As for witnessing failures, as a passenger or even a crewmember,
you are much less likely to notice a false indication than a
failure to receive indication, as the latter will cause a delay.
Ever witness a dragging? ( I have) Every dragging is pretty
much prima facie evidence of a false clear, unless the crew
was running on buzzer & bypass.
Just to confirm for you, 1-1/2 was the pushback for the R1/9's as well. When the operators got dirty, you'd sometimes have to jiggle them to get indication.
Next time you watch Nighthawks, you'll see Sylvester Stallone trying to pry the doors apart on an R-1/9. He does manage to pull them apart by about 3 inches. And if you do a frame-by-frame advance on your VCR, you'll see an undisguised Hoyt-Schermerhorn sign right between the open leaves. It's not mentioned in any movie goofs since you can't see it during normal viewing. If they ever release that movie on DVD, maybe we'll be able to identify some of the car numbers on that train.
GEEZ Unca Steve ... GET a flipping LIFE! :)
For your sins, press the buzzer twice. Tell me where it is.
On the R-1/9s, it's above and in front of the storm door. I pushed 1689's buzzer button a few times at Shore Line back in 1980.
Heh. Key and indication there too ...
Ah yes, the key switch. Saw it, too. I still don't fully understand what it's for. Something about lighting? Back then, I thought it was used to zone the train for the door controls, but that's what the drum switches are for.
Ya know? I don't completely remember now ... it DID cut in your buzzer and bulkhead indications ... you'd turn it when you climbed on, and reset it when you stepped off but for the life of me, I can't remember what ELSE it handled ... it DID do something else.
1208 is one of them I believe. I have the film on DVD. I'll check it again tonight.
It's out on DVD? I'll have to pick up a copy. Chances are it's the Museum R-1/9 train. Wonder which car got its storm door window kicked in by Stallone. That scene made me sick.
Well, I did find a DVD of Nighthawks and was able to positively identify three car numbers on that prewar IND train. In addition to 1208, I saw 1802 and Seashore's own 800. 1208 and 800 were coupled together and could be seen at that point where the train comes to a stop at "57th St." 1802's number is visible above one of its storm doors as Stallone and Williams chase Rutger Hauer through the train. Get this: you know that 1980 Nostalgia Train photo of the R-1/9s approaching W. 8th St. which appeared in the 1993 calendar? Well, 800 is the south motor in that photo, and 1208 is right behind it. The third car was an R-1, 391 or 394 or something close to it. Maybe that was the car that got its storm door window kicked out.
The train was signed up as a B train, and for the most part, the side signs were set corectly as well: Wash Hts 168th St and Coney Island. On one of the cars, the side route sign was set to S/Special.
I'll bet 1440 was also part of that train.
R-1 100 is missing one of its external emergency brake cords. It's the one at the end that's coupled to 484. At least that was the case in 1995. My photo of me assuming the position between those two cars was taken then (back when you could still do it), and there is no cord visible.
They DID have it on the road ... school car for conductors EMPHASIZED "if you aren't sure, hit the silk!" as far as that went. That was the reason for its placement. Prior to rebuilds in 1948, I'm told that if you just pulled the triggers after indication was given, the train would blow chunks. They cut it out in 1948 whereupon, the external cord (along with those stupid headlights) were added as part of a GOH on R1's, 4's and 6-1's ... but it was there if you needed it in MY time on board ... sounds like cut cord in your case ...
Oh, I believe 100 had that cord when it was still in revenue service. It was probably cut or it might have snapped off.
Or maybe . . . was stolen
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> in 1948 whereupon, the external cord (along with those stupid headlights) were added <<<
Are you sure about the date for headlights? I do not remember them from the ‘50s.
Tom
That's what we were told ... BoT requirement for a retrofit ...
The arrival of the R-15s in 1950 brought about the era of the sealed beam to the TA. All subsequent contracts had them. Headlights were then added to existing cars up through the early 1960s.
Steve,
The R-16's were delivered without sealed beam headlights back in 1954-55. NYCTA promo pictures at the time even show them without headlights.
I left the city in 1957 and they were still without headlights. The sealed beam headlights were added sometime in the early 1960's, at least that is what I had heard.
Karl,
You are absolutely correct. The drawings I have show the cars with headlights even though they were delivered without them. According to the actual documentation that I have;
R-22 were the first contract delivered with headlights in 1957-58.
R-17 were retrofitted in 1957
R-21 were retrofitted in 1958
R-16 were retrofitted in 1961 - 1963
R-6 through R-15 were done 1962 - 1964
I have no documentation that the R-1s and R-4s were done although they were not scrapped until the 1970s.
I guess that I am one of the few people who post here who has never looked through a railfan window on a train that had headlights. All of the trains operated without headlights in the old days, and I would squint, trying to see out the storm door window.
Since they are so important now what would happen to a train with inoperable headlights...
Would the train be taken out of service?
Could the T/O refuse to operate it?
>>>>>>>>Since they are so important now what would happen to a train with inoperable headlights... Would the train be taken out of service?
Absolutely.
>>>>>>>>Could the T/O refuse to operate it?
Most likely, a TSS would take over the controls. If no TSS is available and the T/O operates, the rules state that the train cannot proceed faster than 10 mph (restricted speed & extreme caution applies) and the T/O must sound two blasts of the horn at frequent intervals. The train must then be put on a siding, or in a spot in which it is no longer obstructing road service.
According to RTO Bulletin #144-96 (November 27, 1996)
A train will not leave a terminal in service with inoperable sealed beams. If the headlights fail en route, the train will operate to the next station at restricted speed, where it will be removed from service. It then continues at restricted speed to the nearest yard for repairs. Train operator must also blow horn at short intervals to alert personnel on the tracks.
This sure makes it sound as if the old operation without headlights was a dangerous operating practice. I'm glad that I had those squinting railfan window views. With headlights and improved tunnel lighting the railfan window view must be a lot better now.
I used to love being on a prewar train with no headlights. The only illumination you had came from the tunnel lights. The I-beams between the local and express tracks became silhouettes. Throw in the wailing bull and pinion gears and, well, you get my drift.:-)
Have you ever ridden at the railfan window of a headlight equipped train in the NY Subway?
Sure, many times. The R-10s had headlights by the time I became immersed in the system in 1967-68. So did the BMT standards that were still around. The R-32s had them right from the factory, as did everything else from contract R-22 on. My rides on R-1s and R-4s with no headlights were few and far between, but they stand out in my memory.
I doubt that it will ever happen, but I sure would like to look out a railfan window of a train with headlights.
I think I will have to be happy with the views on Salaam's videos in place of the real thing.
Well, the R-32s are still there and will be around for another 10 years at least. The city has missed you.:-)
Since they are so important now what would happen to a train with inoperable headlights...
It would be taken to Boston and put into regular passenger service. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The R-1s never got headlights, AFAIK. The R-4s were split; higher number cars got headlights while lower number ones didn't. The last few prewar A and D trains I rode on had no headlights.
They ALL had "headlights" ... plain old lamps with a fresnel on them, not the "sealed beams" of later cars and retrofits. Granted, they were about as useful as mudflaps but they were there. Over time, the bulbs went and they didn't get replaced. Since they were useless, I'd douse them when I had a run that had them, but always made sure to have one headlamp or maybe two lit "downtown" ... once you were north of 59th or out on the Brighton, nobody cared if they were off.
Weren't they referred to as running lights? I remember those.
Yep ... right on the edge of the anticlimbers, right under the step plates. Later, after the mods, there were sealed beams mounted on some of the cars way outboard ... those weren't the originals.
Are you sure? Here's a picture of the R15's as delivered. Here's a later picture. Notice that the earlier picture has only one set of lower lights for red/white, whereas the later has a separate headlight.
I'm a little confused. I don't think the R types received an
overhaul in 1948, and I think the emergency cords were always
there. There was also never any interlock between the doors
and the brakes. The headlights were added ca 1962.
I stand corrected ... I thought the headlights were done in 1948 as a retrofit, at least that's what I remember being told. I know the newer cars had the emergency cords as built but I thought the older ones (r1's and 4's) didn't owing to the design of the doors ... been a long time though and I'm too hazy to be certain ...
I wishI read this post last night. I spent my lunch-break at the museum today.
I'll add what I can although I'd guess its only small talk:
Emergency cords: Indeed the R1-9 had them conductor accesible and IIRC ALL equipment did. Look at pictures of IRT High V's, Low V's etc you'll see a hole in the roof roughly centered where the clerestory slopes down...the cord went thru there. IIRC the AB's had one right above the conductor station in the middle of the car. Don't remember where the Q's had one {DID THEY?...I say all equipment...?] not the old Manhattan el cars. Rather logical if th Cond. didn't have immediate means to stop the train by the time he did death could result.
Indication on cars with outboard controls didn't have to be checked until we dismounted. First and foremost was riding the required 3 car lengths and observing "all clear " and nobody dragged. In most cases we could see all the guard lights.
Lack of door-power interlocks on the R1-9 and the original IRT was a serious flaw. The way I heard the story it was a BMT invention, came out with the standards; already too late for the IRT to add it [NOT really] and the city didn't want to pay the BMT royalties to use it so none on the R1-9.
Another serious flaw on the R1-9 was that if you had to turn off the juice to a door engine [turn the snap switch] in addition to cutting out the air to it there was no lock for each leaf and you had to pick up seat cushions and jam a shoe slipper so it would keep the doors secured JUST IN CASE they did open; turning the snap switch bypassed the indication circuit so in the unlikely event it opened indication went thru.A very time consuming process especially if you had to look for slippers. Didn't happen often, but sometimes all the jiggling panels didn't make the door clear [closed but still no indication] so you'd have to turn the snap switch. Luckily the R10 thru 36 had leaf locks on them, behind the swing sach near the door. The R38 and up locked by use of the cab key with the key slot on the column by each door pocket. Nice setup.
Anyone who'd intentionally move a train without indication or a highball on the buzzer from the conductor was a fool. If we had someone holding doors the [unauthorized] procedure was set a little air brake and "flash" the motors...make the train kick a bit hopefully to scare them enough to let go. Didn't always work.
On the Q's only AFAIK that few inches of spring slack in the doors, if someone pulled the door back to take up the slack ...of course the door wouldn't open...you'd lose indication. The kids would do that to me, going up the grade from Navy to Vanderbilt was one area...you'd lose power and ASSUME it was tampering and run on the bypass [the Q's had the interlock] and usually they'd let the doors go...of course I was young then and figured I'd outsmart the kids...you KNEW it was them, but in reality it could have been a very dangerous procedure.
If by very slim chance I was wrong a fatality could result.
There were two triggers hence trainline wires on the R1-14; first trigger unlocked the doors by energizing the line that pulled the lockbar back, which slid a little inward from the door tracks at the bottom, second one energized the magnet valve [R1-10 with air doors]which let air go into the opening cylinder. When you hit the caps to close both lines were de-energized and air went to the closing cylinder where it remained until the next operation and the lockbar sprung back to lock position. I don't know the setup on electric doors..guess all was in the motors.
BTW the first cars to have a door motor for each leaf were the R44's.
Don't know what else I can offer. Hope I've been some help.
Thanks, you've added a lot of information and not muddied the waters.
The R42's were coming online, when the Q-cars rode into the sunset and took Myrtle with them. Do you remember if the R1-R42's would also loose indication if subjected to the same prank you experienced between Navy and Vanderbilt?
That loss of indication that I described had nothing to do with the location other than the school crowd we picked up at Navy St. Brooklyn Tech was it? They did brainstorms to annoy instead of wrecking stuff.
The contacts for indication were mounted in a way that if the slack was taken up it would open the circuit, lose contact. Nice simple device.
Happily Myrtle was among the RR's I've helped bury. Matter of fact I saw the picture you sent via Subtalk a year ago with me running a Q on a fantrip...Marcy Jamaica bound. Still have it thanx.
The reason I mentioned the location was to bracket the time frame to within a decade. The Q's that ran on the Myrtle were different beasts than those that ran to Astoria/Corona or the Bronx.
Good stuff, Ed. Just as an aside: I believe the R32s as delivered
had the manual lockout in the door column and it could be turned
with a cab door key, although it was a stiff one! Not sure about
the R27/30 order. Another retired m/m whom you might know (VG)
tells me that the kids used to open the swing panels on [what
would later become known as] the redbirds and flip down the
lock, which would prevent the door from opening, frustrate the
passengers, and eventually burn out the door motor.
The R1-9s had those two triggers which energized the unlocking
and opening trainlines separately, as you said. Love that
sound: click pssssssshhh. Where's heypaul when you need him?
This arrangment with the lock back and solenoid persisted into
the electric door days. I know for certain that the R17 order
had lock bars and solenoids, as delivered. Sometime ca the late
1960s or early 1970s, the original Vapor door motors were replaced
with some odd brand that escapes me now. The lock bars were
done away with, just along for the ride, basically. The doors
locked by overtravel of the shaft where the two operating rods
attached to the motor. The locking trainline just energized a
door unlocking relay which, when de-energized, cut off the door
opening trainlines from the doors on that car. This system became
standard on the later R types, although I don't know at what point.
Many of the older cars simply had a gravity latch that was actualy an elongated link mounted on a stud. It would simply lock the door panel closed mechanically. They (the crew) would still have to be cut out the operator electrically. On the R-9s and R-10s, that was just a snap switch. I think on the 9s we also had to cut out the air.
I remember the locks you are referring to on the R-32's. It was strictly a mechanical latch. One would still have to cut out the operator if there was a G/L failure. After GOH in 88-89 the key switch was moved to just above floor level inside of the seat frame. There was a mechanical lock bar and a switch that removed power from the operator and bypassed the 'S' wire interlocks for that operator.
Of course, then came the PSS (panel sensing switch - in the early 90s. For the first time, if the linkage broke en route, and the panel crept open, we'd know it immediately. Inthe late 90s we added the Obstruction Sensing Switch. Its primary function was to prevent falsely clearing a g/light by rocking the doors and having them lock alternately while the obstruction is still in place.
Yes, I think the point is well-made that with these mods the
doors are mechanically and electrically safer than ever before.
Yes, I think the point is well-made that with these mods the
doors are mechanically and electrically safer than ever before.
And yet, we see an exponential increase in drags (figuratively speaking). So now we get back to my original question; If the doors are safer than ever before, (and the redbirds do have the PSS's) then why are the number of drags increasing? Seems the cause must be other than mechanical, doesn't it?
Might be related to the answer to how someone can give the pointed
finger salute into space at the phantom board and open up on the
wrong side of the structure?
If the doors are safer than ever before, (and the redbirds do have the PSS's) then why are the number of drags increasing? Seems the cause must be other than mechanical, doesn't it?
One would also have to assume that this non-mechanical cause has a curious propensity for ensnaring passengers in redbird doors as opposed to doors in other car models. That's the most troubling aspect for a non-mechanical cause assumption.
I was on redbirds on the #2 and #7 lines today. Pushback is not as precise as on newer cars but that would actually aid in someone freeing themself - not trapping them. So now we're back to the question I asked several months ago.
I saw people 'boarding' the #7 at Times Square. They'd stand midway between the door panels while the conductor is closing the doors. They're holding the doors for friends or trying to decide whether to take the express or the local. Now my question; If you graphed the number of drags over the last 10 years, which other graph would most closely match the curve of the graph of the drags:
A) A graph of the newly arrived, non-english speaking imigrant population riding the trains?
B) A graph of lawschool graduates.
Just a thought!!!! My guess is that all three graphs would be pretty close.
I've been riding the Flushing Line since the R15's were new. Boarding practices at Times Sq. have not changed all that much.
My guess is that all three graphs would be pretty close.
I can think of many obviously unrelated data that would show equal or greater correlation. It's simply a question of knowing what relation to look for and finding it. It's a common statistical trap. How about the number of Yankee wins, the number of solar systems discovered. What part of the sun spot cycle are we in? :-)
The percentage of newly arrived, non-english speaking imigrant New Yorkers was the same in the 1920's and 1930's as it is today.
BTW, as a child between 5 and 10 years old, my mother's first cousin boarded a train, the door closed and the rest of his family was left on the platform, leaving him alone in the car. This incident must have occurred circa 1910-1915. His parents were able to yell to a passenger in the car to get the child off at the next stop, where he was reunited with the family. It must have been a very traumatic incident because he still remembered it vividly 65 years later. I do not think that human nature/parental diligence, etc. has changed all that much. OTOH, they were newly arrived, non-english speaking immigrants. :-)
A few questions come to mind based on the explanations.
There were two separate mechanisms on the original double leaf doors: an actuator (electric/pneumatic) that moved the doors open or closed and a locking mechanism (gravity/electro-mechanical) that prevented a closed door leaf from moving. The indication sensor was attached to the actuator that moved the door, according to Mr Jeff H.
Assuming that the state of the actuator was determined by the indicator switch (open/closed) and the state of the locking mechanism is either locked/unlocked, then a door panel could be in one of 4 theoretical states: State 1 - open, unlocked; State 2 - closed, unlocked; State 3 - closed,locked; State 4 - open,locked. We'll assume that the mechanical linkages prevent State 4.
Suppose a door leaf is in state 2 (has closed, has received indication by virtue of the sensor attached the actuator, the lock bar has not fallen into place), how far back can the leaf be pushed and how much force (hard numbers not required) would be required?
It depends on the type of door operator that's used. I don't have an actual force required but it is not an tremendous amount. The average non-arthritic person can move a panel back and forth with one hand. This makes sense because in an emergency, the doors would have to be pulled/pushed open manually.
BTW: on cars R-44 and above, there is no lockbar. Locking is accomplished by two arms with a pivot in the center. When they move 'over center', the door is considered locked.
The average non-arthritic person can move a panel back and forth with one hand. This makes sense because in an emergency, the doors would have to be pulled/pushed open manually.
I want to clarify this point - the door actuator (electrical/pneumatic) is still powered? Power is still on? We are not in an emergency where there is no power or air pressure?
BTW: on cars R-44 and above, there is no lockbar. Locking is accomplished by two arms with a pivot in the center. When they move 'over center', the door is considered locked.
What about the earlier cars after installation of the PSS in the 1980's?
No, that is with power off and not locked. I was referring to just the force required to overcome the friction of the upper and lower door tracks and the force required to rotate the door operator gear box/motor.
Earlier cars retained their original (albiet overhauled) door operators after the installation of the PSS's. They still have a mechanical lock.
No, that is with power off and not locked.
What about with the power on and not locked?
Earlier cars retained their original (albiet overhauled) door operators after the installation of the PSS's. They still have a mechanical lock.
Is there anything different about how the mechanical lock is energised after the overhaul? Is it still activated by gravity?
I remember the R44 cars with the R16 lockout setup, a red mechanical knob that when pulled outward and slid into the locking position would block the pivoting arm from moving. The same lockout knob assembly on the R16 blocked the panel itself from sliding, sort of like a modern version of the gravity latch. In school car instruction I received on the pre-overhauled R44, there was no mechanical piston or lock, and the Panel Sensing Switches were so picky, it was possible for the fork assembly to jump into the closed and locked position before the door rubbers would mesh. This would commonly result in one door panel closing to a position 2 inches short, and causing a guard light. To correct this, we were instructed to open the swing panel, the fault light cover, which then wasn't screwed closed like the redbirds, and manually move the fork to the open position before allowing the door to recycle. BTW, on the subject of snap switches, you were told NOT to use them unless at a last resort, as there was no indication as to whether they were passive to the indication circuit or not. I can only imagine an undertrained T/O of today playing around with those. I passed a few ROLLING R10 cars on the flats with kids looking out through open side doors.
Oh no, it's a state machine! We're in trouble now; didn't
you contend that such things can never be shown to operate
correctly? Something about the halting proof problem....maybe
the doors will recycle endlessly?
The door will not give indication until it is locked. On the
old lockbar style, the indication switch won't close until the
throw rod had reached the point where the lock will fall in (but
I don't remember if there was a switch on the lock itself).
On the modern over-center design, indication isn't received until
the motor has turned beyond the closed position by a few degrees.
If the indication switch were actuated by the lockbar closing, then the old system would not have been subject to inaccuracies caused by a sloppy mechanical linkage.
The switches on the older operators were either contacts or microswitches that were activated by a cam on the operator main shaft. The lockbar had a similar interlock. For the record, each operator on each car is inspected every 10,000 miles or 66 days, whichever comes first. So are all of the master door controls and relay panels. There is also an enunciation test performed at the same interval to insure against a single point electrical failure.
The switches on the older operators were either contacts or microswitches that were activated by a cam on the operator main shaft. The lockbar had a similar interlock.
Are you saying that there were two sets of contacts and that both had to be engaged to have indication?
For the record, each operator on each car is inspected every 10,000 miles or 66 days, whichever comes first.
By contrast the 1936 BMT inspection cycle for steel motor cars would appear to have been 1500 miles or 30 days. I believe that the BMT outsourced its maintenance to an unregulated subsidiary. Frequent inspections were to its financial benefit. Was this overkill?
Clearly, there are more than 2 sets of contacts on the door operators. The door does not travel at a set speed throughout its travel. There are cushioning resistors that slow the door on opening and closing. This is also done via contacts/switches. On the R-46 operator for example there are 6 switches (IIRC) and most are DPST.
As to 65 year old BMT practices, I'd really not care to comment other than to say that the equipment likely needed more intensive maintenance. I remember when the family automobile needed plugs and points every 10-20 thousand miles and tires were good for 20K-30K Today auto makers boast about cars that don't need their first tune-up for 100,000 miles and radials will go 80K miles. Things do change.
there are more than 2 sets of contacts on the door operators...there are cushioning resistors...this is also done via contacts/switches.
At this point, I'm interested only about the switch(es) that are necessary for giving indication.
On the R-46...
Also, pre and post overhaul R42's and earlier, although differences with later equipment is appreciated.
Thanks.
As to 65 year old BMT practices, I'd really not care to comment other than to say that the equipment likely needed more intensive maintenance.
I quoted the inspection schedule not the overhaul schedule. To follow your automobile analogy, the distinction is how often tire pressure is checked not how long the tires last.
1500 miles or 30 days? That must be a misprint. 1500 miles would
have been less than two weeks with typical equipment usage.
At any rate, not terribly important what the BMT or any of its
shadow companies did when comparing against modern maintenance
practices on {semi-}modern equipment. The standards used
electropneumatic control with a bunch of unit switches and interlocks.
These needed almost weekly checking and dressing. But, even
more pressing were the many plain friction bearing surfaces needing
lubrication: 8 journals, 4 axle bearings, 4 armature bearings
per car, not to mention greasing brake linkages, side and center
plate bearings, etc.
As for the interlocks, thinking back to it, the lock solenoid must
have had a contact in series with the indication circuit because
on the older cars with separate lock/open functions, opening the
locks immediately dropped indication. Train Dude says some cars
are still running around with the lock bars? I thought everything
had been converted to the over-center style operators ages ago.
The BMT outsource?! Maintenance of the rapid transit fleet was
probably handled, from a corporate standpoint, by New York Municipal
Ry., but I'm sure Paul Matus could settle the question.
I would assume for practical purposes the R9 was the same on the R10, understanding the R9 didn't have a variable load valve. We learned to listen for the puff of air from the variable load valve when tinkering with the snap switches, they were only used to cut a panel or set of panels out of the indication circuit, or to determine which set of panels were closed and unlocked when troubleshooting a guard light. No interior guard or fault lights to use as indicators of problem doors. Before leaving the snap switch in cutout, we had to step on the overcentering arms, or "teetering arms" as known back when to see if the indication would by chance come in. After that, cutting out the engine by placing a petcock handle against the pipe, and cutting out the gravity latches was "all to it". The R38s also had that R32 style mechanical lockout in the pocket pillars, easily turned by a coin. Kids isolated cars in the B division too with that. How much we have improved over the years.
The R9s had a variable load valve
In my case the memory is the first thing to go [I'll stop before I'm completely in the gutter.] Right: the R32 had to have had that door lock in the column because we trained on them in 1965 when I was hired...the '38's didn't come for over another year yet mid summer 66 IIRC.And I remember them showing us that nice device in school car.
The R27/30 didn't have it.
Luckily I never had trouble with kids playing with those locks as you describe. Enough other grief though.
Tell VG I said Hi, please. we exchange Xmas cards every year yet. Another refugee to the sticks like me, but he's more redneck than I am...he has horses! Best wishes.
I remember the sound as tddk-ksssssss. Music to my ears. I hear that R-10 sound whenever I open a Windows program. One colleague thought it sounded like a toilet flushing. Very funny.
If I'm not mistaken it was often quite easy to hold open so even if you got caught you could slip into the car since they didn't clamp on you with such great force.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Depends on the car model. IRT door closings were quite sedate. OTOH, door closings on the BMT standards were fast and vicious. They usually bounced from collision between the closing door and the door jam. These doors gave every impression that they would break a limb, if one were unlucky enough to try to stop them.
I remeber boarding on a Northern Line train in London after which consisted of 1972 Mk(someone help here please!) stock after transferring from the Central Line at Tottenham Ct. Rd., and the doors were truly carnivorous - peeepeeepeeepCHOMP!
-Robert King
Yes, but the BMT had a two or three inch wide rubber strip on the door edge. You could pull your hand out no matter how fast it closed.
I suspect that the rapid closing of the door would tend to push an obsruction out of the way.
Elias
No, the IRT had the wide strip. The BMT variety was not much wider than the R1's.
The old IRT cars also had a wide rubber strip on the door edge and you could put your hand between the door edge and the door jamb of the car. I discovered this when I rode on the 4 car train of IRT Low Vs that they ran on the 42nd Street shuttle when they celebrated 90 years of subway service on October 27th 1994.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
First, to answer your question, the doors on the R-9 and the doors on the pre-overhaul R-42, circuitry-wise, are pretty much the same. Of course we've added the door obstruction and the key switch for added safety.
Second, while I like the point that Old Tom made (despite his abrassiveness), it does not address the relatively good door safety record of the cars that followed where the conductor did not have such a 'good vantage point'.
Let me approach this from a slightly different perspective. The door circuitry on the NYCT cars is far more elaborate than that of the LIRR. Door panel positioning sensors on the NYCT cars are more precise and set to a higher tollerance than on the LIRR. The LIRR conductors rarely observe the platform as dilligently as NYCT C/Rs do. And with only 2 door openings per car, and the inherrrant pushing and shoving, all this should add up to more drags per stop on the LIRR. Yet are there far fewer. Poorer design, less critical maintenance, less crew vigilance and yet fewer drags. Seems as though there is an external element or two at work - doesn't it?
Notice: The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
>>> it does not address the relatively good door safety record of the cars that followed where the conductor did not have such a 'good vantage point'. <<<
Something that could explain that is the C/Rs who converted from the old between the car operations continued the close scrutiny of the doors. New C/Rs over time, having never had that experience, tend to be quicker with looks down the length of the train.
Tom
Could be! Could also be the changing demographics of the job. Formerly (generally) taller male conductors have been replaced by (again generally) shorter females.
Notice: The writer of this post is responsible only for the content of the post as it relates to the subject matter. He will not be responsible for spelling or grammar errors that may occur.
Maybe, to give those shorter conductors better visibility, the MTA can retroactively install trigger boxes and platforms on the R-32 through R-143 fleet, though this would make OTPO on the G and the shuttles really interesting :-)
First, to answer your question, the doors on the R-9 and the doors on the pre-overhaul R-42, circuitry-wise, are pretty much the same. Of course we've added the door obstruction and the key switch for added safety.
When did these changes from the R-9 design take place?
I agree totally!!!!!!
Add the Media to the blame. They're so stuck on ratings that the joke is "If it bleeds, it leads". And they always ham up stories of kids getting killed. 5 over 10 years is an "epidemic"
BTW, has the West Nile media fest started yet? You'd think, in a city of 10,000,000 that 5 or 10 people getting it wouldn't be significant...
So far just one elderly woman in staten island has been bitten and smitten. "To spray or not to spray, that is the question!"
The mosquito is the most useless creature on the face of the Earth.
For every person infected with a mosquito-borne illness, all mosquitoes must die.
The current spraying probably infects more people than it saves by killing the flying slime.
What we need to do is genetically engineer an airborne disease to which all blood-containing creatures are carriers and that renders the mosquito reproductive system useless and eradicates the entire species quickly enough to prevent the risk of mutation that would allow infection of other, less parasitic insects.
As for floral reproduction, there are plenty of other insects to do the job.
It's time for the mosquito to get on the endangered species list.
why did U not mention the "rail mosqueto".....{ the r-142 jumping armidillos }.....!!!!
he he he he he he he he he ....................................lol - big time !!!
I'll second that.
Um, you do realize that many many animals eat mosquitoes as a primary source of food. If you REALLY want to get ride of a useless creature, try ticks.
There are other insect that we can help increase in number to replace mosquitoes.
The only problem is that if all mosquitoes become extinct, future species won't be able to clone us and put us in a zoo of the coast of Central America, or at least will have much more difficulty doing so.
Ticks are useful. How else would clocks work?
The problem with the little bastards is they're everywhere -- they cause malaria in the tropics and pester the oil rig workers on the north slope of Alaska (the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge has more skeeters this time of year than polar bears or caribu).
Any chemical agent or natural predator introduced into the environment to eliminate them would have to be as adaptable as the mosquitos themselves to surviving for long periods of time despite the most extreme dry heat and/or cold weather conditions. And I'm not really interested in a genetically altered, mosquito-eating cockroach...
I have nothing to add to this very excitring thread. I just wanted to change the subject line so I won't waste time thinking that there's anything here that remotely relates to trains.
THANKS A LOT DUDE.
You've just given Fox another idea for a show. Sheesh.
Have you spell-checked that particular rant (except the comedic parts), put it in more general terms, and mailed it to the papers?
-Hank
Have all the dragging victims been children?
To be perfectly honest, I can't say how many have been children nor can I say how many were actually legitimate drags. I do seem to remember that the last 2 were children, one at 14th St and the one at Nevins.
I can't say how many have been children nor can I say how many were actually legitimate drags.
Has somebody at the TA analyzed this data? I'd think that data screening should be in order.
So as I know the TA's response has been to call for people to exercise extreme caution while at the same time to step lively. :-)
Taking the drag question in another direction, is this happening on other big systems (MBTA, CTA, SEPTA, PATCO, WMATA) or is it strictly a New York problem?
There doesn't seem to be a drag problem in Baltmore with our OPTO, left side cab cars. Our media are as driven for "Bleeds..Leads" stuff as anybody, and you don't see it in on our TV stations or in the Sunpaper, which is as left-leaning, bleeding heart as any major daily.
OCTranspo is going Light Rail. The Light Rail line is almost done and thery have got some DLRV Cars in testing and there was aready a Passenger Trail run on the line. Some stations are DONE. I think about 1 More station left i think and they DONE!
The Complany who Bulit the DLRV's where from Bombardier and the model of these cars are Talent. And I like the way it look's. It looks VERRY COOL and there's High Back Soft seats inside. Here's 2 Photos of the train. (I don't have the person's name that took these photos.)
And the website on this NEW Light Rail line go to:
http://members.home.net/olrpp/olrpp.html
Where is OC?
It's part of the TA Name. OC Transpo runs Bus service and Light Rail Service south of Hull,Quebec. That's in Ottawa, Canada's Nation's Capital.
>It's part of the TA Name. OC Transpo runs Bus service and Light Rail Service south of Hull,Quebec. That's in Ottawa, Canada's Nation's Capital
My hometown!!! We're all pretty excited about the light rail line here in Ottawa. It'll be opening September 5th, likely with speeches from the mayor and other important officials. It's drawing some criticism because it won't be going downtown at first, but they're planning an extension after the first phase proves itself. In the mean time, it'll provide a good connection to the existing transitway system (our current rapid transit system... run by buses on reserve roadways).
After the downtown extension, they'll be extending it to the Airport, and then building an east-west crosstown route.
I've already been to see the three Bombardier Talent trains in the trainyards and they look pretty impressive!! With these trains I think OC Transpo will get a lot of people out of their cars!!
With those Cars shure people would think this is REAL 21st Century. And those trains seats 127 Passengers and stands 157 Passengers. So that could send Ridership VERRY HIGH in a Year after it open.
So wwhhaatt'ss uupp??!!
The Talent is one of the best-looking railcars I have ever seen. There's plenty of photos of the Talent on the European Railway Server website. They seem to be very popular in Germany. Maybe if the Talent's a hit in Ottawa, we might see it here too. I hope so. I think it can entice more people to commute by train.
OC = Ottawa-Carlton.
-Robert King
>OC = Ottawa-Carlton
Currently. With the amalgamation of the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton into one city of Ottawa, OC Transpo will stand for either:
Ottawa Capital Transportation Commission
or
Ottawa, Canada Transportation Commission
They haven't decided which one yet.
I picked up a test study book at the Civil Service Bookstore on Worth this afternoon, now i just have one qwuestion - are there any books I could study *before* i take the practice tests in this book? It seems sort of awkward to be trying to learn information from a multiple choice test with answers, without having trhe basic information to read or look back on.
Sir, not to be rude or anything, but the test is years away. List is up to # 718 with about 5,000+ remaining on the list.
If it were up to me, they would just stop at about 1,500 and give another test in order to hire only those who did the best on the test, but knowing this city, they'll go all the way to 6,000 to ensure that everyone gets a chance.
When they announced the test they said 600 T/O's over 3 years. It's more like 300-400 this year some of them are from the previous test so (promotional) it's hard to tell.
They will probably hire until they detect a drop in the quality. There might be one more big clas near the end of the year because of the service changes but I think they realize 110 was too much to digest in one meal.
As of today, they are up to # 718 on the list with a class tentatively set for October. That class is expected to have about 50 students.
Once they started taking people off the list generated by the open-competitive test, there were NO MORE promotionals. If you are experiencing TA personnel in the O-C classes, they took the test the same as you did.
You can't just drop a list when "they detect a drop in the quality". If they renew if for the year then it runs for the year. The TA can stop calling from the list from any point but can't give a new test until the list expires or is not renewed for the coming year. A list can be renewed or extended 4 years but must be done so each year.
This is my understanding of Civil Service Testing in NYC, maybe the TA is exempt from the rules governing non TA titles/lists.
.
They can not renew the list when they start not to like the people they get and in the meanwhile defer hiring until the new one kicks in.
To me that sounds like droping the list.
I wonder if anyone got TOSSed from the list???? Get it? TOSSed.
Train Operator Selection Survey (TOSS) was given to us OC candidates in December. It asked us questions about sick days, fighting, and our patience. My assumption is that it was the TA's version of a psychological exam.
Do you guys think anyone was cut from the list as a result of this survey?
Anyone dumb enough not to figure out the answers they wanted to hear was to dumb to pass the test in the first place.
I worked in the office at the census last year. Part of my job was to collect stuff from field people when they were laid off when they had expected to work the whole census and tell them they had to wait for their last check. How many fights do you think I got into at work and how many I put as my answer on the test?
""Sir, not to be rude or anything, but the test is years away. List is up to # 718 with about 5,000+ remaining on the list.
If it were up to me, they would just stop at about 1,500 and give another test in order to hire only those who did the best on the test, but knowing this city, they'll go all the way to 6,000 to ensure that everyone gets a chance.""
Well, I'll be in school for at least 2 more years as of now, and this is more like a curiosity thing for me anyway - I'm in no rush. Just lookign for info.
I think there should be a cutoff: people scoring beneath a certain amount aren't placed on the list at all. If the list runs out, another test is held.
There was a cutoff many people failed.
The cutoff is 70% as is for ALL Civil Service Exams. Want better people, make the test harder and/or require different experience. Weight the written test LESS THEN the experience required. Come on experience for the OC T/O test was any full time work for 5 years.
You can not create a test and say the passing grade is 90% without changing DCAS rules and such.
Has a broken speedometer.
Wha duz dis look like? A fwiggin' defect sheet???
LoL, Zman you seem to be in a grove lately.
We need to know that the speedometer is broken! If it's important to LuchAAA, it's important to us! YES, CAR 5954 ON THE G HAS A BROKEN SPEEDOMETER, AND IT'S ONLY ONE OF THREE SUCH CARS, SO IF YOU WANT A PICTURE, TAKE IT NOW BEFORE THEY FIX IT!!!!
A speedometer is not something that is absolutely needed to operate a subway train. The TA got away without speedometers for decades previously. The most important "numbers" are functioning air gauges. Plus, as slow as a NYC subway trains are today, there is no need for speedometers anyway. After all, how often does a train go over 30 MPH? Finally, at least 20% of the Jamaica fleet has malfunctioning speedo's. There is no absolutely priority in repairing them. When a train goes in for this defect on an operating car, all the yard does is bury it. Finally, R32's 3904/3559 never had speedo's installed.
After all, how often does a train go over 30 MPH? Finally, at least 20% of the Jamaica fleet has malfunctioning speedo's.
Consider these "speed-stretches":
1) Lexington Av. to 23rd St. Ely Av.
2) Queens Plaza to Lexington Ave. (59 St. ) NOT VICE VERSA, R trains cannot make good speed towards Queens from Lex Av.
3) The #2 line would be suitable for this too, but unfortunately the line has TOO MANY CURVES in Brooklyn to start out with.
BUT, if you have a chance, the #2 ZOOMS past 28th, 23rd, 18th, (stops at 14 St.), Canal, Houston, Christopher, and Franklin Avs. on the LONG stretch down 7th Av. (starting from 34 St. Penn Station) to Chambers St. and beyond.
If you want a slow train, consider the Steinway Tubes. These Flushing line trains cannot top over 35-40mph anywhere on the line, because of the closeness of the stations, and the timers set on the signals. (EVEN ON THE STRETCH FRON VERNON-JACKSON Avs. to Grand Central!)
I also won't make TOO MUCH of a deal from a broken speedometer, because the Subway is well equipped with signals, switches, and timeres anyway. A speedometer might be nice for a rabid railfan to try and record the top speeds of Subway trains during normal service hours.
Railfan Pete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>These Flushing line trains cannot top over 35-40mph anywhere on the line, because of the closeness of the stations, and the timers set on the signals. (EVEN ON THE STRETCH FRON VERNON-JACKSON Avs. to Grand Central!)
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. WRONG.
The express run between Junction Blvd and 61st Street is a fast stretch.
""The express run between Junction Blvd and 61st Street is a fast stretch.""
Shhhhhhhhh. Quiet! You know someone at Jay St is reading these boards. Now they'll put up some timers between 61st and Junction. Speed is something that the TA works very hard against.
You can get the speed up there since you are going down a hill as you leave Woodside. Plus the fact that its a straight stretch.
There are no curves to slow the T/O unless they are on an attractive female waiting for a local.
The 2 and 3 in Manhattan almost always top 40 and often hit 46, specifically on downtown trains passing by 79th (or so) and 59th (or so).
Franklin Avenue is in Brooklyn. Franklin Street is in Manhattan. Don't worry, it somehow got left out on the 2's strip maps where all other late night local stops are listed (and I got yelled at the last time I pointed that out here).
Uh, I knew all of this. The previous post was a sarcastic post in reference to LuchAAA who deemed it necessary to tell us that car 5954 had a broken speedometer. Again, why he posted that is beyond me.
At one time, 30% of the whole system had broken speedometers.
And at one time, 100% of the system had none at all. :)
No busting intended, just needed to be said. If I were operating today, I would consider a speedo to be a distraction from the old operating rule, "eyes down the tunnel, mister ..."
Yeah, the things really aren't necessary. They're just nice to look at, especially for those T/O's who like to cut the timers as close as possible.
Digital display I'll bet, as accurate as a two dollar watch ... and when you're looking at that, you might miss the steady aspect change to flashing. Whoops. A *real* T/O knows how fast steel goes by at the right speed. Might as well take those things and mount them on the fan window to amuse the kids. :)
At one time, 30% of the whole system had broken speedometers.
At one time, 30% of the system was broken, period.
Dan
how much longer should we wait to see at least a set of r62a's on the 7?
OI heard it was to be this mouth. Maybe soon.
Ooh, THIS mouth, that's disgusting.
why?
keep the 36s as long as we can.
Are you sure you are not Salaam in disguise?
which would be untill now
Saturday Night, 7:30 PM unless otherwise specified in the subjectBusTalkers are also welcome!
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Um, white on white is kind of hard to read. (And I do have JavaScript support but either it or your JavaScript is buggy.)
Your JavaScript support is buggy.
I'm testing this on IE 5.5 on Windows 2000.
The operating system shouldn't matter. I'm not using a JS specification that isn't compatible with IE 5 or Netscape 4.7 or later.
As I've posted before, I'm running IE 5.00.2614.3500 on Windows 98. Not that it matters, since there's really no reason to use JavaScript to (attempt to) present plain old textual information.
since there's really no reason to use JavaScript to (attempt to) present plain old textual information.
You really don't get it do you?
Does HTML automatically adjust the date? In case you haven't noticed, that is plain old textual information, it just happens to be designed for a colored background.
You're really in wierd territory, your JavaScript features are half-enabled so you can't see the full version, nor does your browser read the data between NOSCRIPT and /NOSCRIPT which makes the background black, since JavaScript is "enabled."
Whatever. Contact me by email if you'd like to discuss this further.
What does the following say, if anything?
It indeed tells me that my JavaScript works.
So we've found the problem.
For some wierd reason, your browser isn't loading the scriplet.
And no, I won't eliminate the scriptlet.
easier just to do it with good old fashioned mirc
jade.va.us.dal.net port 6667 #subtalklive
other servers also available
defiant.dal.net
raptor.dal.net
barovia.dal.net: 6661,6662,6663,7000
arabian.oh.us.dal.net: 6660,6663,6666,6669
The thing displays the IRC information and the link to the web-based system. the method of connection has nothing to do with the way of posting it, it's not like you can chat right from the subtalk page (but thanks for giving me the idea, I'll look into it).
whatever.
Sorry for posting this so early in the week.
Line 15: "Unterminated string constant"
Maybe?
Yeah, that's the one!
I think I have the error cornered, but I promised not to post again.
I got several errors when opening it with a non-Javascript browser.
And being this vague helps me how?
Works fine on IE 6.0 on Windows XP. No errors.
line 2 char 1: "undefined" is undefined
line 16 char 1: "color" is undefined
line 16 char 1: "headline" is undefined
line 16 char 42: unterminated string constant
line 30 char 1: "color" is undefined
platform
Windows 95 version A, build 950, IE 4.0 build 4.72.3110.8 SP1a, with Javascript disabled.
I have no idea how JavaScript is "disabled" on your system, since it would ignore everything between SCRIPT and /SCRIPT if it really was, it is obviously trying to parse the scripts.
I disabled JavaScript on my system to test it. NO errors, the table appeared black as it's supposed to and it had a modified headline.
Saturday Night, 7:30 PM unless otherwise specified in the subjectBusTalkers are also welcome!
SubTalk live is a unique oppurtunity to hold LIVE chats with other siderodromophiliacs (railfans) and busfans. Everyone is welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun-filled evening.
In order to ensure order and tranquility, certain rules must be set out in advance, they are as follows:
It is suggested that you only discuss topics relating to transit (bus, subway, or railroad). Off-topic discussion is permitted, but may be stopped if deemed neccessary
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Only chat operators may deem a discussion off topic and are the only persons who can make announcements
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WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
It works on preview, but then the date fails to appear after posting.
Looked green to me, (Netcape 4.75 with JavaScript enabled, running on Win98SE) was it supposed to be another color?
Well, considering all info given by members of Subtalk, I devised my plan and followed it just about exactly. Overall, the trip was a success. But I never really go one hour in the subway before a mystery arises. So please read this report and help answer my questions.
I started with an unlimited Metrocard. The goal was to start at and end up at Sheepshed Bay station. Keeping on-topic, I'll just say I used the B36 to Ave U/Nostrand, the B44 to Flatbush, and the Q35 to Rockaway Pk {odd routing because of the goal to take the Q35 full length}. So on the subway at Rockaway Park, I took note of the station. This was my first time on the Rockaway line ever so I was very observant. I noticed that the platform signs said S shuttle to Broad Channel and then A rush hours only to 59th St. Does this mean there's no direct Rockaway Pk-207th St service??? Got on the S which on the front and back had a black S not a blue one. The side digital signs said shuttle on the front 2 cars and not in service on the back two cars, switching up when it relayed. Hardly anyone was on it so I had to ask the platform worker if it was the train to Broad Channel. All the stations were nice. I got off at Broad Channel where the lightning storm started, forcing me to move under the shelter and away from the "10" post hidden on the side-wall on the platform behind bushes. After seeing an A going to Far Rockaway and my S going to back to Rockaway Pk the Manhattan-bound A came in. What luck, an R38!!! The rain was hard enough, however, to prevent me from running to the front, a good 2-car lengths. So I got on the third car for the beautiful 3+ miles to Howard Beach. It is unique in that it is a crossing of a bay but it isn't a bridge so the train is flying at what I'd say was about 40 miles an hour right on the water. Unbelievable! I plan to do this again soon by waiting at Broad Channel in the middle of a week off for an R38 again. The rain worked in my favor in a way, though. During the "voyage" to Howard Beach, some big lightning strikes on the water made the trip interesting. The train was running right into the rain only making it more fun. Anyway, I enjoyed the curve onto Rockaway Blvd and the quick dip into Grant Ave and the Fulton exp and got off at Nostrand for the C to Franklin. Took the elevator a story or two up to above street level, where there is an interesting overpass where you can look right down at the busy Fulton/Franklin intersection. Went up 1-2 flights of stairs to the S tracks to find that the escalator which is supposed to be giving direct Franklin Shuttle-Euclid bound service was out, making a long stair climb. Took the S to Prospect Park, saw the curve that caused the malbone st wreck and took diamond Q back to Sheepshed Bay. Overall, a nice trip, I guess out of Lefferts, Far Rockwy and Rockwy Pk, the third is the best.
The only times there is direct Rock. Park to Dyckman is during the morning rush. In the evenings, there is Rock Park service from 59th Street. All other times one has to take the shuttle to Broad Channel.
The timetable indicates that the Rockaway Park A only runs as far north as 59th, morning and afternoon. Does it actually run further north? (And, if so, only to Dyckman?)
From what I heard, the train runs to 59th Street only in theory. In practice it actually runs to Dyckman.
I was once on a train that discharged at Dyckman and it didn't seem for emergency reasons. I don't remember what the other terminal was (this was an R-38 I think).
Well, I only take it to Chambers, but the signs (electric, only 44's run to Rock ParK) always say Dyckman.
So R-38's never run to Rockaway Park?
The regular shuttle is always R-44's. Those weekends when a bus connects the peninsula to the mainland and all Rockaway service is via shuttles between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park, they're also R-44's. And now you tell me the A to RP is always R-44's, too.
Disappointing.
Do the signs have the proper letter (A) or is the letter blank? I ask because the R-46's (and I assume the R-44's as well) are unable to display proper route letters with unusual destinations. One weekend a few months ago, the F ran split service, with the north piece running from Queens via 63rd to 34th BMT; the signs left the route letter blank. When the G is split at Bedford-Nostrand, the signs can display "BEDFORD/NOST" but not "G" along with it, even though nothing but the G stops at B-N.
I believe after discharging at Dyckman, it go into the yard.
I've seen the train running "lite" down CPW in the afternoon to Rockaway Park. Don't see why it can't make the stops even starting at 190th St.
I suspect the A trains leave the Rockaway Park station from the small yard in Rockaway Park in the morning. After they make their last stop, they are layed up in the 207th Street Yard, and then, later on, make their PM trip. I've been at 207th Street station around 10:00AM in the morning, and have seen A trains pull into 207th, dump their load and go out of service. If you check a trackmap, trains can only enter the 207th Street Yard from 200th Street. This surprises me because the IND usually build yard leads from both directions. I wonder if the trains they take out of service at 207th are from Rockaway Park. I know they are sent to the yard, because I've seen T/Os changing ends at 200th.
I was taking a not-so-usual-route home today when at about 7:33 PM on the Manhattan bound Express track on the 'A' line at East New York Station an R-143 passed by. WOW!!!! It looks so nice. I think I saw some orange electronic displays on it, kinda neat. On the inside there were containers about 2 per car from what I could tell. Anyone else see it today??
is the interior slime green?
lol. I really couldnt tell. I was on a Queensbound 'A' train when the R-143 went by in the opposite direction. The only things I noticed where those red containers on the inside.
What containers do you mean (I have not kept up with this car order)
It looks as if they were transporting some items in the train itself. I saw about 2 red containers per car about the size of..........well......I cant really tell. lol. They were about knee high and with a floor space of 2X3 feet. Maybe a lil bigger. My train was crowded so I really didnt want to push my way through a crowd of passesngers.
So...The R-143 is spotted?
I thought that fading red stripe on the R-142 was odd...but spots? Does it look like a Dalmation?
...........ha ha
If you look closely the stripe is made of spots
I didn't see the train, but I saw an unmarked van parked at Columbus Circle, and a bunch of non-uniformed guys wearing some sort of kevlar-like-vest carrying large red unmarked containers down the stairs into the subway.
I doubt it's related :)
Maybe it was for alien transport?
avid
Sounds like the containers could have been for weight, to simulate a passenger load - I know they used to use stacks of train wheels (not on the axle - they weigh about 500 lbs each, IIRC) for this; maybe they are using these containers now instead.
subfan
Anyone else see it today??
As the so-called great SubTalkers here need to say:
I don't think you can have two SubTalkers seeing the same R143(A) train that you saw. A very slim chance on the same day, the same station, and the same train.
My response:
The only R143(A) train I've seen is in the several photos of the R143's themselves neatly compiled by David Pirmann on this site. I've never seen one live, though : ( I've only seen #8101, and people here say that #8101 isn't even on the tracks testing, or running in service. Only cars #8103 and #8104.
According to SubTalkers, (and info. compiled by David Pirman, thanks) the R143's were periodically being seen on the L - Canarsie Line. None of the cars are in service, but they are continuing the testing. Subtalkers here say they aren't doing very well so far.
Did you notice any car #'s? Or were you fixing your eyes on the containers inside the shiny, handsome R143(A)'s?
Railfan Pete.
I was trying to look at the inside. It was difficult to look at the car #'s when Im not at the window. And besides,the train was rolling kinda quick.
The Panda's are making their way around the system for clearance tests.
whats a panda?
They kind of look like a panda. Every kind of stock usually gets a nickname.
I had jack squat to do today, so I went to Hartsfield Airport to find and take pictures of the Westinghouse people mover cars that are going replaced by the end of the year. I managed to find cars 1,2,4,5,12,13, and 15 and I took some low quality pictures of the first two cars. The trains were moving while I took most of my pictures, plus the lighting didn't help me too much.
On car number 1, the date says September 27, 1978. Does this date mean the completion of manufacture, or when it was delivered?
Brighton Exp Bob and Sea Beach Fred are invading the Southern Division on Thursday 16 August 2001. Coney Island will never be the same. If anybody wants to join us. We are meeting aprox 1200Noon at Nathans on Stillwell Ave and Surf Ave. SAfter we eat, And buy some Brooklyn T Shirts on the Boardwalk, Fred will ride the Cyclone, then take either the Q or N into the city, then we will reverse and come back. It depends on where we park the car, since we will be driving up from Northwestern Virginia, across the Narrows from Staten Island. Anyone interested is welcome, just post or send e mail to Bob or be there.
Uh-oh, women and children off the streets!:-)
Speaking of Cyclones, check out the Cyclones' new ballpark, if you have a chance. They've been a big hit with baseball fans. Their caps even sport an old-time Dodger "B".
BRIGHTON!!!!!
SEA BEACH!!!!!!
If I weren't the IRT man maybe I'd be D-Culver Ed? I feel sorry for the line treated like an orphan. Somebody please adopt that line for a handle? BTW maybe you guys should meet at the Cyclone and ride first then go to Nathans? Seriously thre Cyclone was a good smooth coaster.
Fred and I will driving up together from Virginia. He has been staying at my house since Saturday and will be there until this upcoming Monday
Is it OK to post inline images on here, or is that not preferred?
Depends on YOUR connection speed. I used to hate it, because it took too damned long. Now I do it (I've got cable).
-Hank
I don't. It's just as easy not to.
The reason I ask is because David removed the "There is SelkirkTMO" thread, which contained lots of images.
Just as well Dave did ... it really got out of hand ... I don't think the images were the issue though.
That particular thread started with my car accident ($2300 in damage; when the claims adjuster saw the photo, her reaction was "Oh yeah, they'll pay!" (They being the livery car's co, American Transit Insurance, a notorious company with a poor record in the industry)) and drifted into several other topics. Since the first post was off-line, and someone named 'smack' had gone nuts posting garbage overnight, numerous off-topic posts were yanked, and some entire threads went as well.
-Hank
Thank God that was over and removed, Late night subtalk can be a dangerous thing, ON a more closely related topic, I had a conversation with a T/O about R-142 Test Cars at 241st, he was doing push-ups and pull-ups while waiting for the line up into 241st, He didnt specifically know about the Test Trains, I aksed whether he did exercise before every line up, he said "only if they dont let me in" I sure hope thats true. Since he walked from the Second car back to his position doing exercises, I guess Its a Long Trip
It's helpful to mention "(contains image)" in the title so that people with slow loading can open in a new window.
I'd recommend either posting a link to the image or displaying only a thumbnail with a link to the full-sized image, like Dave does on most of the image pages. But I've posted an image inline before, if it's absolutely essential to the discussion or if it's just one and it's small.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I HAVE to make a html file that links to my image, because Angelfire.com doesn't let you direct link to images. But, since they gave me 50MB of space for my page, I'm not going to complain too much. Also, links are better because they don't take up as much space and load quicker.
It was recently mentioned that PELHAM 123 would
be playing this coming weekend in NYC... at
which venue??? is there a box office number?
On the redbird scrap list:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/scrap-r3336wf.html
Redbird 9596 and 9597 are listed as stored in Grand Concourse. As of today (at least) both are back on the #7 line (I rode it on the local out of Main St. this morning.
flx7595
It must be a typo. I believe it's actually 9496 and 97 stored over there. Retired Pelham Cars are in Concourse.
-Stef
Next time, all railfans should bring a portable camera with PHOTOS to prove their point. (We will believe they didn't edit it at a print shop!)
It would be more plausible to do so. There are oddities happening on the subway everyday, and even as we speak.
Railfan Pete.
Oddities? You can't capture them all on film!
-Stef
I think the general consensus is to try to keep things as accurate as possible here. So when you hear something by word of mouth, it's generally accepted unless there's a photo to accurately prove a point.
-Stef
I know, but for simple things, like the two #9596 and #9595 Redbird cars on the scrap list still running on the Flushing line. That can easily be captured on film.
But I guess you're correct. Everything said here is practically accepted by word of mouth, just like my encounter with Redbird car #8888 on the #5 train at 34 St. Penn Station during a service advisory, and I don't carry a camera on Sundays. Someone might find the answer.
Railfan Pete.
Well I don't know if you've been up to Concourse Yard but without actually going into the yard, it's hard to get pictures close up enough to get car numbers. You can't see the scrap tracks hardly at all from BPB station. From the street bridges near there you can only get a look at the near end of the storage area. Cars further away or on an "inner" track you'll never get car number photos of...
Next time, all railfans should bring a portable camera with PHOTOS to prove their point. (We will believe they didn't edit it at a print shop!)
But how do you know when the picture was taken? I could easily show you a picture of an R-10 and say I rode it in service last Wednesday; is that proof?
Don't you mean, PROFF, Mike 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoops... sorry, I'm not responsible for typos :).
Since I am not at liberty to go against the law and plagiarize, if you (David) get a chance to read this, click on "First in Thread".
You may want to note the time and date, and probably fix it on your site.
To refresh my memory, where is the Grand Concourse?
Railfan Pete.
The Grand Boulevard and Concourse is a boulevard that runs up the Bronx between the Harlem River and the Mosholu Parkway.
Oh, and haven't you ever heard of "fair use?"
If I may speak on behalf of Mr Pirmann, he has stated in the past that if you wish to communicate with him, use email; he doesn't have time to read every post.
Please send me list updates via email or feedback.
The single express track on the lower level at 145th appears to be directly below the southbound express track upstairs. The local tracks are below their upstairs counterparts. That leads to a mighty wide platform on the northbound side. Why wasn't the express track centered between the platforms?
The need to support the tracks on the upper level? If someone were to check, I bet the columns are stacked precisely.
-Hank
Yeah, I suppose a row of columns would slightly impede the progress of the D train.
I checked the column distances, and while the distance between the center line and the platform column near the uptown Washington Heights-bound express track held at the standard distance for such platform construction (16’ 1”), the column distance from track center to platform column on the downtown express side was influenced by the lower-level Bronx-bound platform spacing (18’ 8”, as on that lower level you have to measure the distance between the column and the track center which was set at 9’ 4”). However the lengths of the upper-level downtown and uptown platforms were uniform. Go figure.
Apparently the station was built before they decided wether the Bronx line should be 4 or 3 tracks.
Apparently the station was built before they decided wether the Bronx line should be 4 or 3 tracks.
According to Joe Cunningham, this is the case, as heard on the TM tour I took last fall.
Construction on the Concourse line (and thus lower level) at 145 were done simultaneously as the 8th Avenue line, according to published history. Concourse opened in July 1933, 8th Avenue in September 1932, less than one year apart.
It would seem unlikely that plans for the Concourse line were not already factored into the original 8th Avenue project.
Hey, what happened to the home page? Most of the colors and pictures appear to be gone. Is there some kind of server trouble?
- Lyle Goldman
There's still the same amount of pictures. But you're right I got rid of some of the colors.
It looked better before. Now it's so...... strange.
> I got rid of some of the colors.
Why did you do that?
- Lyle Goldman
Well, because, to me, it looks better.
Because he can, that's why.
-Hank
Concearning a recent thread this is VERY fortuitous timing.
**************************************************************
Today, A real golden oldie of a retro edition: Witnessing a collision.
Back in May of 1975, I was out of high school and already pursuing a career
in railroading. I had done the smart thing graduating mid-year back in
January. Figured I had better get out while the getting was good. If I had
stayed full term, I likely would have been thrown out and not allowed to
graduate. I had enough credits, so I bailed.
On the evening of May 14th, I was over at my good friend Jimmy Shafer's
house. Jimmy was one of my partners in crime as we had broken a few laws and
numerous parental ground rules together. It was often said that we were
partners in the firm of "Shifty, Cunning and Lowdown." He lived in an area
of Chicago Heights known as "the Hill," which was on the southeast side of
town.
For whatever reason, likely another broken parental rule, Jimmy had been
grounded to the neighborhood for awhile. We had figured out ways to
circumvent this rule as we used to sneak off in my car over to Burger King
so he could visit his dolly for a few minutes while she was at work. This
was accomplished by pushing my old beater car down the street so that his
folks could not hear it starting. We then would hop in, start it up and take
off. We would be there and back before they realized we were gone. Nothing
like the devious mind.
On this particular evening after making one of our Burger King runs, we
decided to walk over to an empty lot near his house. This lot was along the
Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal's Chicago Heights Sub and the parallel
Chicago Heights Terminal Transfer industry line. Milwaukee trains used the
B&OCT on a trackage rights arrangement between North Harvey, just west of
the IHB's Blue Island Yard and Faithhorn, a wide spot in the road near
Crete, IL where the Milwaukee had a yard. Faithhorn was also the northern
terminus of the line to Terre Haute and points in Southern Indiana. In fact
by this point in time, they had been running all the way to Louisville via
the former Monon for a couple of years.
While hanging out around this vacant lot, we used too, on occasion, hop a
moving CHTT job. We would ride for a few blocks, then drop off. Clearly not
the brightest thing to do, but I was 18 and Jimmy was 17, so were still both
"indestructible. It was the period of our lives when were young and dumb and
well, you get the rest.
This particular evening I had obtained some beer. I was a year shy of the
legal drinking age in those days, but little did that matter. Remember we
were part of Shifty, Cunning and Lowdown. We used to frequent this location
to party and watch trains go past. Jimmy never did understand my fixation
with trains, but he would watch along with me.
On this particular evening, we were discussing the most important things to
a couple of teenage boys, girls, our spin on the meaning of life and the
future among other things. We heard the whistle of an approaching northbound
Milwaukee Road train. He was approaching the road crossing at Sauk Trail,
which was a little ways to the south. We positioned ourselves to see the
train as it approached the 26th Street road crossing. We wanted to observe,
as this crossing only had crossbucks, no gates or flashers. Periodically,
the Milwaukee or CHTT would smack a car at this crossing. Neither railroad
went very fast through here. The Milwaukee operated at about 15 mph and the
CHTT at 10 mph. We joked about the possibility of actually seeing a
collision happen tonight although not actually expecting one to occur.
So there we are watching as the train approached. He came across the
interlocking and diamonds of the CHTT line that diverged from the parallel
route and crossed the B&OCT. The Engineer had the headlight burning brightly
and was whistling as he approached 26th Street. As the train closed in on
the crossing, here came a car headed east on 26th Street. The driver made no
effort to even slow down, he just kept zooming along. I quickly realized
that he was not going to make it and stood up saying something to the effect
of "Holy shit!"
As the trains lead unit GP20 #974 started on the crossing, the motorist
likewise started on the crossing. We all know the results when two moving
objects attempt to occupy the same spot of real estate at the precise same
moment. All of a sudden there was this huge crash and the car began to turn
sideways. We immediately began running towards the scene, which was about
five hundred feet or so from where we were sitting. I can recall us even
commenting that we could not believe what we had just witnessed. It
certainly wasn't a funny idea anymore.
As we arrived, the car, an older white, Pontiac station wagon was sitting on
the opposite side of the road. It had spun almost sideways and knocked over
the crossbucks on the opposite side of the crossing. The passenger side door
was pushed in all the way up to where the driver was sitting. They guy was
still alive although pretty seriously injured. He was spitting out teeth and
had blood flowing from numerous locations. He was apparently in shock, or
perhaps under the influence or maybe both as he kept asking for his comb.
Then he said, "Call my wife and tell her I'm not gonna be home."
In the meantime, there were several motorists in their cars sitting there
watching this all occur. They were all heading west on 26th Street. Not one
of them even got out of their cars to see what had happened or if the guy
was alright. It wasn't until after we arrived and started to talk to the
motorist in the demolished car did any of them get out of their cars. I told
one of them to go over to the house that was just east of the crossing and
tell them to call the fire department. The guy seemed concerned because he
didn't know the people. I told him "I do and they are alright." Their son
was another partner in crime of both Jimmy and myself.
The train was stopped by now and one of the crewmembers had reached the
scene. Within a few minutes, we could hear the sirens of the emergency
response people. There was a firehouse about two miles away, so they were
here rather quickly. Unfortunately, they pulled up on the opposite side of
the tracks and had to turn around, go down to the next crossing to the north
(22nd Street) and then come back around to the east side of the train.
By now, all kinds of people were standing around. I still find it amazing
that two teenaged kids were the first to try to help the guy. We knew better
than to attempt to try to remove him from the car. The car was seriously
damaged and I don't think we could have if we wanted to anyway.
The Conductor arrived after walking up from the caboose. We spoke with him
and gave him our names and addresses as witnesses to the event. They guy was
removed from the car and hauled off to the hospital. The police also took
our information as witnesses and told us we would likely be hearing from all
sorts of people over this entire episode.
We departed shortly thereafter, called it a night and headed for home.
Several weeks later, I was heading over to Jimmy's again. He wasn't home, so
I was going to bum around for awhile. As I left his house, I spotted a
stopped Milwaukee Road southbound. There were no engines tied onto it, just
a cut of cars and the caboose. I spotted somebody sitting in the caboose and
he had a familiar look. So I parked the car, got out and walked down the
hill to talk to him. He was the Conductor of the train that mixed it up with
the car a few weeks earlier. He allowed me to board the caboose and we began
to talk.
I asked where his engines were and he told me they had stalled the hill. The
head end crew had taken the head portion of the train down to Faithorn Yard
and would come back for the rest. I later learned this was what was known as
doubling the hill. we discussed the events of May 14th. He told of their
getting a knuckle when the train stopped as well as some other problems.
More on that a little later.
I also learned the Conductor's name, Bobby Bruns. For some unknown reason,
this name would stick with me for years. We talked about the railroad and of
course, I inquired as to how I might get hired. He mentioned that the
Milwaukee was looking to close down the operation at Faithhorn. But he did
give me information as to where to go to apply anyway.
When the power returned, tied on and made ready to depart, I asked for a
little ride. Bobby consented but told me it could not be far. It was all of
about two city blocks before I hopped off, but it was fun. It was also
something virtually nobody else I knew at that point in my life had ever
done.
Some folks from the Milwaukee Road Claim Department paid a visit to my house
to interview me in the following weeks. They told me of the serious nature
of the motorist's injuries and the fact that he was now suing the railroad.
I agreed to be a witness on behalf of the railroad as did Jimmy. We had to
give statements to the Claim folks, but we were never formally deposed. I
later learned the railroad had offered him some cash to settle and the
motorist agreed. I was told the amount, but will not reveal it here. It was
on the four-figure range though, so he didn't exactly get rich.
And for what it was worth, I didn't get a job at the Milwaukee. It was
certainly not for lack of trying though.
Now we jump ahead to 1994. I was working at the IHB. I had just recently
made a move from the Gibson Engineer's extra board to the Blue Island board.
I had worked at Blue for several days and noticed a name on the call board
reports that struck a cord, Bobby Bruns. I asked some people there if this
Bruns by chance used to work for the Milwaukee Road. They said he did.
I wonder if this is the same guy that I met? What are the odds?
A few weeks went by and I get called for a job and had the opportunity to
work with this Bruns fellow. So I asked, "Are you the same Bobby Bruns from
the Milwaukee Road whose train hit a car in Chicago Heights in 1975?"
"Yes I am" was his response.
Yes folks once again, the world gets a little smaller.
I went on to tell him who I was and he recalled me. We discussed that entire
affair and he recalled still having a copy of the original "Report of
Highway Crossing Accident." He later dug it out of his files and made me a
copy. In fact, I am looking at it right now. And right there plain as day
are both Jimmy's and my names and addresses as witnesses. He did have my
address wrong. He put me at Jimmy's address and gave Jimmy a mutant version
of mine. Probably occurred in all the confusion at the scene.
In recalling and discussing the events of that evening, I learned that when
the Engineer had put the train into emergency to get stopped, not only did
they get a knuckle, they also broke an air hose and shifted loads on a
couple of cars. All because the motorist was not paying attention. At the
time the collision occurred, I really didn't think he had any idea as to
what had actually just happened to him. I never did learn as to whether the
motorist had been drinking or partaking of controlled substances, but I want
to think that maybe he was judging by his responses at the scene.
So here we have this collision, my working with the Conductor of this train
years later, and my being involved in a major collision as the Engineer.
Yes folks, life really is stranger than fiction.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001
It was nice to see one of my pix on the main home page. That was quite a nice treat.
One would have to agree, that winter scenery has a nice effect for picture taking. A Diesel and a Redbird Side by Side, what a great moment! The picture is Jackson Av on the 2 and 5 Lines in the Bronx, taken by me on a winter day in 1996. I was on my way to school (in the morning) over in Riverdale when I got this lovely combination.
I hope one of these days, I'll get around to sending more photos.
Cheers,
Stef
No digital cameras were used here! A simple (cheap) automatic Nikon Fun Touch 35MM Camera was utilized for the occasion.
-Stef
I agree, that was a nice shot... (or it wouldn't be in the banner rotation!) :-)
-Dave
The LIRR is not providing shuttle bus service between Port Jefferson and Hicksville. So if you don't have access to a car, then you're f*cked.
Oh, and according to News12 Long Island, the LIRR is NOT honoring Port Jefferson Branch monthly/weekly tickets on any other line. You have to purchase a regular one-way ticket then mail it in for reimbursement.
I will never complain about NYCTA management again after this.
according to News12 Long Island, the LIRR is NOT honoring Port Jefferson Branch monthly/weekly tickets on any other line. You have to purchase a regular one-way ticket then mail it in for reimbursement.
I can't believe that. In my 40+ years of riding the LIRR, I have NEVER had my ticket not accepted when it was for a different branch.
That makes NO SENSE AT ALL.
What is going on w/LIRR management decisions?????!!!
BMTman
"Oh, and according to News12 Long Island, the LIRR is NOT honoring Port Jefferson Branch monthly/weekly tickets on any other line. You have to purchase a regular one-way ticket then mail it in for reimbursement. "
I'd be very surprised if News12 had that correct. I once went through an entire month commuting on the Babylon branch with a Huntington/Port Jeff branch monthly. Never got a single question about it, other than some conductors asking me where I was headed once the train was east of Jamaica (I think that was only to ensure that I intended to be on a Babylon train).
CG
As long as the ticket is for the same or lesser zone, it's good on any train.
-Hank
Oh, and according to News12 Long Island, the LIRR is NOT honoring Port Jefferson Branch monthly/weekly tickets on any other line. You have to purchase a regular one-way ticket then mail it in for reimbursement.
I'd be very surprised if News12 had that correct. I once went through an entire month commuting on the Babylon branch with a Huntington/Port Jeff branch monthly. Never got a single question about it, other than some conductors asking me where I was headed once the train was east of Jamaica (I think that was only to ensure that I intended to be on a Babylon train).
I routinely buy my monthly ticket at Patchogue, getting it stamped accordingly, but most days ride from Medford. No questions ever asked. Once, when I bought my ticket at Penn, the seller couldn't find a Medford (or Patchogue) rubber stamp and used a St. James one.
90% of the Codnuctors and Assistant Conductors will honor the monthly's and weekly's especially if it is in the same zone.
On Channel 4 they asked a LIRR talking head if Port Jeff line Customers could park at other line stations. The talking head said they've inquired localities to allow them to park but I'll bet you'll get ticketed and/or towed since nothing is formal.
On Channel 4 they asked a LIRR talking head if Port Jeff line Customers could park at other line stations. The talking head said they've inquired localities to allow them to park but I'll bet you'll get ticketed and/or towed since nothing is formal.
Precisely my thought when I heard an interview (probably the same chattering noggin) on WCBS 880 this morning.
Ticketing hopefully won't be too bad, as most of the parking along the Ronkonkoma (Wyandanch to Ronkonkoma) and Montauk (Bay Shore to Patchogue) lines actually is open to everyone, not just local residents. And in any event, as I noted elsewhere, there didn't seem to be much if any extra ridership on the Ronkonkoma line this morning.
Fox 5 news this morning said that Nassau County police and local authorities typically cooperate in instances like this.
"Fox 5 news this morning said that Nassau County police and local authorities typically cooperate in instances like this. "
Ronkonkomo is in Nassau County? Do Tell? when did this happen?
Elias
Fox 5 news this morning said that Nassau County police and local authorities typically cooperate in instances like this.
Ronkonkomo is in Nassau County? Do Tell? when did this happen?
Political boundaries remain unchanged. But many of the affected Pt. Jefferson line commuters are likely to drive into Nassau County to look for alternative routes. Two of the affected stations, Syosset and Cold Spring Harbor, are in Nassau, while Huntington, by a large margin the busiest station on the Pt. Jefferson line, is just over the line into Suffolk.
Excuse me; Nassau and Suffolk Counties...
>>>And in any event, as I noted elsewhere, there didn't seem to be much if any extra ridership on the Ronkonkoma line this morning. <<<
Maybe the 7000 decided to just stay home. I mean there are enough suit covered anuses on the Ronk Line already....right, Peter?
Peace,
ANDEE
And in any event, as I noted elsewhere, there didn't seem to be much if any extra ridership on the Ronkonkoma line this morning.
Maybe the 7000 decided to just stay home. I mean there are enough suit covered anuses on the Ronk Line already....right, Peter?
That's for sure!!!!
On the other hand, the addition of the Port Jefferson line riders would not necessarily have contributed significantly to the s.c.a. ranks. Riders on the Port Jefferson line (I go from Stony Brook every now and then, just for variety) tend to be more casually dressed than their Ronkonkoma counterparts. I guess there's some sort of time warp* in Ronkonkoma, and no one knows that "business casual" has been around for years ...
* = actually, a more plausible explanation is that the high-powered, Type A-personality, executive types who still wear suits these days are also more likely to insist on a single-seat ride (they're used to getting everything their way, naturally) and hence gravitate toward Ronkonkoma.
It does not go by BRANCH, it goes by ZONE.
wayne
Oh, and according to News 12 Long Island, the LIRR is NOT honoring Port Jefferson Branch monthly/weekly tickets on any other line. You have to purchase a regular one-way ticket then mail it in for reimbursement.
The LIRR is dumb, but they can't be that dumb. Tickets of all kinds are interchangeable from one branch to another, at all times, provided that the correct zone fare applies. I use a ticket for one branch on another branch all the time, never had the slightest problem.
I bet the Ronkonkoma Branch was even greater hell than usual today!
:-) Andrew
I will never complain about NYCTA management again.
Hmmmm. . .
Can I quote you on that? :-)
No. You know how fickle I can be.
You're ficklish?
-Hank :)
You couldn't tell by looking. Ya gotta love how ZMan hides behind an alias - his real name is Philo Kvetch. :)
I am dismayed by LIRR literally "stranding" people. They should have bus service between Hicksville and Huntington. By not having much arrangement, it shows poor planning on the LIRR's part.
Not honoring commutation tickets is just cruel. The LIRR should accept PJ branch tickets on the other trains during this disruption, and there's no reason for absolutely no trains between Huntington and Port Jeff since that part is not affected by the incident.
The LIRR literally stranded people. And those without a car are screwed. I know that could be me.
Well I guess those people will just have to walk to the nearest SCT bus stop, however long that walk may be. SCT should at least have improved service from these PJ stations to those on the Ronkonkoma line.
I'm curious where you think the LIRR could get the buses from on such short notice? Before you say "school buses sitting around doing nothing for the summer," note that they're very heavily used for summer camp and recreation service. The private school bus company with which I am associated on LI has every one of its buses in use from 7am-7pm through the end of next week. And they are always short of drivers. School district buses can't be used because they're not authorized/insured for non-district charter work.
Remember that you need to find properly DOT-inspected buses, and drivers with Class B CDLs (commercial driver's licenses) with P (passenger) and air brake endorsements.
Does LI Bus have enough spare buses and qualified drivers? I doubt it.
Assuming such a transfer could be made, NYCT storage buses could be used if LI Bus doesn't have the equipment. Dunno about the driver issue... maybe pay for some engineers to get their CDLs?
Here in Boston, trolley operators are trained for CDLs for just that purpose -- in case substitute bus service is required.
"Here in Boston, trolley operators are trained for CDLs for just that purpose -- in case substitute bus service is required"
Of course, that's for a long term outage. You can't just jump off your trolley or train and start driving a bus every time service gets suspended for a few hours.
With a situation like the one from Monday, you wouldn't have your engineers/drivers in the right places to run such a service.
Could have been done for Tuesday, but then again, the LIRR was able to scrape together bus service for Tuesday without it.
CG
Boston's MBTA is pretty good about getting substitute bus service running on short notice for rapid transit/trolley outages, even those that last only a few hours.
As a rule, Boston's Blue, Green, Red, and Orange Lines are two-track, stand-alone routes, so "run-arounds" and reroutes such as are done in NYC are not possible.
As an example, a passenger who jumped or fell in front of a train on the Red Line at South Station on the Red Line a few months ago caused service to be suspended between Park Street and JFK/UMASS for four hours. Buses were put into service within a half hour, and provided slow, but sufficient substitute service.
Why can't buses from NYCT be used? They have more spares than LI Bus/ Oh yeah I think there is a stupid rule that NYCT buses cannot operate with passengers outside city limits. How stupid, after all it's still the MTA. The MTA needs to be more uniform, less departmentalized.
Oh yeah I think there is a stupid rule that NYCT buses cannot operate with passengers outside city limits.
It's good that you find stupidity in rules that don't exist and have never existed.
"Why can't buses from NYCT be used? They have more spares than LI Bus"
Not from what I hear, and my source is official.
"Oh yeah I think there is a stupid rule that NYCT buses cannot operate with passengers outside city limits. How stupid, after all it's still the MTA."
NYCT buses run to/from Green Acres Shopping Center in Valley Stream.
David
Some NYCT express buses also operate with passengers outside state limits, via New Jersey. (They don't stop there, however.)
X17 SUPER EXPRESS (X17-Route J) runs inbound through NJ but does not run to Staten Island though NJ. The Super Express PM run X17-B goes down the FDR at 23rd St. like the X5.
The LIRR has always accepted tickets to and from one branch on any other branch providing you are travelling to or from the same or lower zone.
Apparently by going to Ronk... some people may be falling back into the next higher zone, and there a supplimental fare would neet to be paid. Methinks that this should be waived for an event such as this.
Elias
Someone is missing some details. There is LIMITED bus service. They reported no bus service because they didn't have enough buses to provide for all their commuters, and they would have been better off trying an alternate route.
-Hank
What is dismaying about this affair is that the LIRR's response would indicate that they did not have a contingency plan.
If an airplane were to crash at JFK, the NYPD has a written, detailed operations plan to implement. This written plan is in plain sight and not locked up in some captain's desk. There are similar operation plans for a host of "unforeseen" disasters. They are updated periodically to keep them current.
There are a host of logistical problems in providing alternate transportation, if rail service is interrupted for an extended period of time. The time to identify and solve these problems is before a service interruption. Such planning involves identifying available local resources, etc. The LIRR goes through 3 independent political jurisdictions. The problem of how to address transporting people across a jurisdiction would be resolved at this planning stage with cooler heads well in advance of a crisis. Clearly, there would be different plans for a host of different service interruptions.
This planning would first estimate the problem's magnitude. There are 5 trains between 6 and 7 AM; 6 trains betwwn 7 and 8. So, you are talking at most about 5000 people per hour. That comes out to 75-100 buses and drivers per hour. Each bus should be able to make 2 trips. You would have police cooperation so that the route between Huntington and Hicksville was clear to guarantee 1 trip per hour per bus.
Where to find the drivers and buses? First look at the local resources. LI Bus is also within the MTA's jurisdiction. LI Bus has 11 lines that operate to either Jamaica or Flushing. This parallels services already provided by the LIRR and NYCT Bus. Run the LI Bus routes short to the NYC line with transfers to the NYCT bus. Have these shortened routes also go to the nearest LIRR station, e.g. Floral Park or Little Neck and have the LIRR honor the bus tickets as far as Jamaica or Flushing-Main St. If you save 4 buses per route due to 50 minutes less round trip travel time, then you are half way to meeting the objective.
Start looking to charter buses from the public agencies for the rest. LI Bus is running 20% spares or 54 buses; Suffolk bus is running 29% spares or 37 buses; NYCT is running 20% spares or 698 buses; NYCTDOT buses are running 16% spares or 161 buses. You might be able to come up with 50 more working buses and drivers out of the 950 spares pool - that's a 5% recovery rate.
Next try private charter bus operators, if the public agencies cannot supply the extra 50 buses required. These operators want to make a buck. Find 10 such operators each with 5 buses and the problem is solved.
Will there be problems or complications? Of course, but the bulk of the organization and contacts have been worked out in the planning stage. It should be a lot quicker to implement an existing plan than to design one from scratch. This was a very limited problem. The LIRR has a lot of local resources available. They knew at 4:40PM that the line would be down for an extended period of time. They had 12 hours to get everything in place. Was everybody there on vacation?
Will there be problems or complications? Of course, but the bulk of the organization and contacts have been worked out in the planning stage. It should be a lot quicker to implement an existing plan than to design one from scratch. This was a very limited problem. The LIRR has a lot of local resources available. They knew at 4:40PM that the line would be down for an extended period of time. They had 12 hours to get everything in place. Was everybody there on vacation?
I'd just love to see how the LIRR could've handled a really bad outage. This was just one line, and happened during the summer when ridership's a bit lower than usual. Let's say, instead, that a propane tanker strayed onto the Belt Parkway and hit that LIRR overpass near Rosedale. Boom! All of a sudden you've lost the Babylon, West Hempstead, Long Beach and Far Rockaway lines, possibly for weeks or months.
If possible use Rosedale station and Valley Stream as temporary termials, bus to Belmont Race Track for connection back on the LIRR.
NEXT Shuttle Non-stop from Valley Stream to Far Rockaway to transfer to "Limited stop "A"s and regular "A" . The Limiteds would go from Far Rock, B'way East NY, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, 34th St-Penn Station. Then to D5 at Queens Plaza to reverse if a 600ft set will still fit.
If possible, Army Corps of Eng put in Temperary wye at V.S. to avoid shuttle between V.S. and Far Rock. To bad the connection was cut at Far Rock bewteen LIRR and NYCTA.
If I were King thats what I have my minions do.
What about you?
If possible, Army Corps of Eng put in Temperary wye at V.S.
How about reconnect the West Hempstead/Country Life Press connection instead? I can hear the Garden City NIMBYs complaining already! :-)
Forgot that one. Is that single or double track? How far a run would that be froem West Hemp to Hempstead?? Is the ROW still available? If not, lay trak in the street, like an old time interurban! Sound better all the time!
Where is that propane truck?
rabid avid
Even better, how about (at the risk of sounding morbid) a propane tanker being hit at the NHP crossing during rush hour? That's Oyster Bay, Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma service KO'd. The way some people defy the gates at that crossing, it doesn't seem out of the question.
Of course, if the branch from Garden City through Levittown to Bethpage hadn't been abandoned, Ronkonkoma trains could use the Hempstead branch and that.
There'd have to be shuttle buses from Port Washington branch stations to serve the Oyster Bay branch, and possible the Port Jeff branch west of Huntington.
Then again, something bad could happen near the Woodside station-
The way some people defy grade crossings in general, IMO they shoud all be eliminated (turned into underpasses/overpasses.)
I can't stand it when someone gets killed running the gates and then I hear on the news about how special he/she was in the community. Please! If he/she was so special, then he/she would be smart enough to know to give high - speed MUs and diesels the ROW!
Another good reason to install a WYE on the Montalk Branch so that eastbound trains can make a direct move from Lindendhurst up the Central Branch. Then another WYE so that northbound Central Branch trains can go eastbound to Ronkonkoma, and yet another so that northbound Central Branch trains can go eastbound to PJ. The key is flexibility!
Another good reason to install a WYE on the Montalk Branch so that eastbound trains can make a direct move from Lindendhurst up the Central Branch. Then another WYE so that northbound Central Branch trains can go eastbound to Ronkonkoma, and yet another so that northbound Central Branch trains can go eastbound to PJ. The key is flexibility!
I'm not certain if there's enough land to install the first of those wyes. Things are pretty dense along that part of the Babylon line. Wyes #2 and #3 could quite easily be built, and definitely should (as should the first one if possible).
Even better, how about (at the risk of sounding morbid) a propane tanker being hit at the NHP crossing during rush hour? That's Oyster Bay, Port Jeff and Ronkonkoma service KO'd. The way some people defy the gates at that crossing, it doesn't seem out of the question.
Of course, if the branch from Garden City through Levittown to Bethpage hadn't been abandoned, Ronkonkoma trains could use the Hempstead branch and that.
There'd have to be shuttle buses from Port Washington branch stations to serve the Oyster Bay branch, and possible the Port Jeff branch west of Huntington.
Then again, something bad could happen near the Woodside station
That scenario would be bad, but to make it even worse, have our friendly propane tanker hit one of the bridge supports at the Floral Park station and go boom - you can then say adios to the Hempstead line too*.
A big to-do at Woodside or Jamaica** would of course knock out even more lines, but at least then people could switch to the subway. That wouldn't be an option if the boo-boo were in Nassau or eastern Queens.
* = needless to say, if a propane tanker blew up in the middle of a crowded town like New Hyde Park or Floral Park, the loss of LIRR service would hardly rate a mention on the back pages of the newspapers. There'd be bigger fish to fry, so to speak.
** = losing service at Jamaica (say, at the Van Wyck overpass) would be worse than at Woodside. Even though the Port Washington line would be unaffected, there'd be no ability to route trains into Flatbush Avenue or Long Island City as there would be if the problem were at Woodside.
About ten years or so ago, just such an incident did occur in the Sunny Side Yard area. Every thing went to Hell in a hand basket.
A prpane tanker derailed. For hours all rail, subway and road traffic near the area was down the tubes! this was at the request of the police and fire Depts. just in case.
I DO NOT disagree with their call. It was to keep traffic to a minimum and people away from the area.
This was where the NYCTA failed. They could have rerouted service to the Willy B from midtown, the Penn Station area and wall street.
They just couldn't think. They were simply overwhelmed.
Afew well placed wyes and closer terminals would releive some pressure points.
Say a shared terminal at Far Rock for across the platform transfers
between LIRR and "A" service.
Shared terminals for West Hempstead and Hempstead branches.
A wye or connection to allow trains from the Jamacia Branch to access the 14th St line. There will be future infrastructure aging and downtime for repairs. Plan for it. There is also the un-planned for accidents and failures.
The powers in charge sometimes cannot see the forest because of all the trees. If a situation arises, then everybody runs around like headless chickens yelling and fingerpointing, when a contingency plan to deal with a potential calamity would have saved the day. The what if scenario can always become reality at the worst possible moment.
I will be in San Francisco on Sunday, August 27th with an all day Muni pass and about 6 hours between 3:00 P.M. and 9:00 P.M. to explore the system as much as I can. I would like to concentrate on the street cars and trolley buses. I will probably pass on the cable cars because of the long waiting lines, and I have traveled on BART so that is not a priority.
Any tips on an itinerary and what to see would be appreciated.
Tom
Correction for all the nit pickers, It is Sunday August 26th I will be there.
Tom
1. Ride the F Market line in its entirety.
2. when coming back from the wharf get off at ferry plaza and walk south along the Embarcadero to Folsom, there getting an N to the Caltrain station.
3. Do not neglect the J Church which has backyard PROW and a speed run section 30th st.
Sorry, but I can't resist: Be sure to wear a flower in your hair.
>>> Be sure to wear a flower in your hair. <<<
I was thinking of that when I posted the thread.
Tom
Tom,
Not only wear a flower but also wear some patience. MUNI is one of the worst systems - mostly unreliable. If you haven't seen the Pacific Ocean take the N-Judah from downtown to the end (Ocean Beach) and walk around.
I am originally from Brooklyn and actually will be in NYC that weekend visiting my Mom in Sheepshead Bay. I look forward on taking the new Q train.
ScottinSF
Don't miss the orange Milan streetcars on the Embarcadero portion of the F-Market line. Absolutely a treat, you'll be transported back to the 1920's. Also, the California cable line is much less popular with the tourists, though the headways are longer. Enjoy your trip.
The Milan cars run the entire F route, although some runs short turn at ferry plaza. I second your comment on the Cal cable
I found out the easy way that the California line was less popular, I just happened to get off BART at that stop. Also, the Bay turntable end of the Powell and Mason line isn't very popular, either. It's only a short walk from the F line, at around Taylor St, I believe.
As far as Trolleybuses are concerned, make sure you ride the 30 Stockton route north of Market St - all the way to the Jefferson loop if you have time.
It is pretty slow (though interesting) through Chinatown, but after that you get to paralel the cable cars for a couple blocks on Colombus, go through the trendy Marina district on Chestnut, see the cul-de-sac loop at the top of Van Ness and end at the Palace of Fine Arts.
This line has heavy service even on the weekends.
Also recommended is the 5 Fulton line. Lots of turns, trolleybus intersections and different landscapes to enjoy.
The cable car lines are only at the termini. Walk a block or two up and you'll have no trouble boarding there. You may have to dangle outside the car, and you certainly won't get a seat -- but you probably wanted to dangle anyway.
I want to thank all of you who have given me suggestions about what to see in San Francisco. I am going there (actually to Marin County) for a military reunion of cold warriors where we will spend a day and a half swapping lies about how good the old days were and how we kept the Russians from attacking us. After that I will do some railfanning in San Francisco.
An interesting problem came up concerning how to get there, since I have to work on the Friday before, and the Monday after the weekend in Los Angeles. The cost of the trip was a definite consideration.
My choices are:
Fly on Southwest Airlines: Cost $144.00 Travel time: 1hr, 40 min.
Amtrak Bus & Train: Cost $97.00 Travel Time: 12 hours
Greyhound Bus: Cost $60.00 Travel Time: 8 hours
Drive automobile: Fuel cost $55.00 Travel Time: 7 hrs.
Each of the costs are round trip, the travel time is one way. The air route is from Ontario to Oakland, and the travel time includes driving to the airport and the cost includes long term airport parking. Not included is the cost of an extra night's lodging in Oakland, since there are no flights early enough on Saturday, so I would have to fly Friday evening. The ground transportation from Oakland to Marin County and San Francisco would be slightly higher also.
The Amtrak option includes taking a 3 hour bus ride from Los Angeles to Bakersfield to catch a train at 3:00 am to Emeryville (6 hrs) and a change to a bus for a 25 minute ride into San Francisco.
Greyhound is a one (narrow) seat ride with a 30 minute meal break about 4:00 am.
Driving has the advantage of giving me an automobile in San Francisco at no extra cost, but the distinct disadvantage that I would have to stay awake during most of the trip.
I ruled out driving first since I have to get some sleep if I am going to work on Friday and Monday, and stay awake on Saturday and Sunday. Also my air conditioning and cruise control are not working.
Next went flying because of the cost. I want to budget the whole weekend at $150.00 which was clearly impossible with flying.
As much as I would like to take the train, the extra four hours and the middle of the night transfer in Bakersfield ruled it out in favor of the Dog. My last trip, a few months ago to Santa Barbara (110 miles) was surprisingly pleasant. So I am looking forward to this trip.
Tom
Hope for a new Dog, since they tend to have the disinfectant smell less ingrained into everything than the older buses do (having experienced both the former and the latter on a cross country trip back in 1977 when Greyhound was offering $50 one-way trips anywhere in the country, including stopovers. Got to railfan in Chicago and on the new BART system that way, but the cleaning fluid smell on the Supercruiser bus from Omaha to S.F. was something else).
I expected to see much higher ridership than usual on the Ronkonkoma line this morning thanks to the Pt. Jefferson line's outage. To my surprise, there was no discernable difference.
I got my usual 6:41 from Medford (which today happened to be a bus substitute), connecting to the 7:05 express from Ronkonkoma. Medford itself had its usual 15 or so passengers; I had thought that some intrepid sorts from Pt. Jefferson would've made the drive down Route 112. The 7:05 from Ronkonkoma was crowded, as it always is, but I really couldn't tell if there was any difference. Much the same was true of the massive parking lots at Ronkonkoma.
The lots at Central Islip and Brentwood, which the 7:05 bypasses, were no different than usual, which means that there were many empty spaces at Ronkonkoma. There might have been a few more people than usual boarding at Deer Park, but it was hard to tell. Wyandanch, Farmingdale and Bethpage were as usual.
<< thanks to the Pt. Jefferson line's outage >>
What happened on the PJ line?
Never mind, I just heard about the derailment.
LIRR is reporting that they will provide regular service for the rest of this morning and midday between Huntington and Port Jefferson, with bus service between Huntington and Hicksville.
No anouncement has been made about the PM rush, but it sounds as though they don't have enough trains east of the derailment with which to provide any meaningful rush hour service from Huntington to Port Jeff. Looking at the schedules, it looks like as of about 4:45 PM on a weekday there are only 3 or 4 actual trainsets east of Huntington. Supposedly they'll be making another announcement at about noon.
CG
I read a message about "A" and "B" divisions. I couldn't find anything about the divisons in FAQ, unless I looked in the wrong place.
Can anybody help me?
Michael
Living in Washington, DC; hoping to retire to NY
A division=Former IRT lines, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9, and 42nd Street shuttle.
B division=Former IND and BMT lines, A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,L,M,N,Q,R,W,Z, and the 6th Ave, Grand Street, Franklin Avenue, and Rockaway Park shuttles.
:-) Andrew
You can save typing:
A division: all number lines and 42nd Street S
B division: all letter lines except 42nd Street S
Sure, economical and time saving. But what fun is that?
A Division/IRT: (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(9)(S)
B Division/Ind-BMT: (A)(C)(E)(S)(B)(D)(F)(S)(G)(N)(Q)(R)(W)(J)(M)(Z)(L)(S)(S)
What about all the diamonds?
Actually, more to the point, I believe it's:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9, 42nd ST shuttle: A division. IRT
A,C,E,B,D,F,Rockaway Shuttle,: B2 Division IND
J,M,Z,L,Q,W,N,R,G,Franklin Shuttle: B1 division BMT
Also note, that some IND lines like the A, robbed, I mean stole, I MEAN use some BMT territory.
Also, the 7 uses the B1 division radio frequency.
"A,C,E,B,D,F,Rockaway Shuttle,: B2 Division IND
J,M,Z,L,Q,W,N,R,G,Franklin Shuttle: B1 division BMT"
G is B2 (IND). So are the 63rd Street and Grand Street shuttles, which weren't mentioned.
David
And the F changes over to B1 south of Church Ave, while the R goes to B2 north of the 11 St cut.
B1 and B2 are radio frequency settings and have zero to do with divisions.
>>>>>B1 and B2 are radio frequency settings and have zero to do with divisions.
Sure they do. B1 is the BMT and B2 is the IND.
That's why whenever you call Control, they say "B1 desk or BMT desk, etc."
And the 7 line is what?
It's an IRT line, but it uses BMT frequency, IIRC.
The 7 is an IRT, just like the other numbers. In fact, the Astoria section of the N was once IRT too.
Both the Corona/Flushing and Astoria lines were intrisically IRT lines, each accessible from both the 42nd St line (like today) and the 2nd Ave El, via the Queensboro Bridge. While there was also BMT service between about 1928 and 1949, the lines were cut to IRT specs, and the BMT had to run IRT-sized shuttles between its terminal at Queensboro Plaza (where you would transfer to/from the BMT through service via the 60th St tunnel) and Astoria or Corona.
The 2nd Ave El closed in the 1940's, and it was eventually decided that the system was no longer working well. In 1949 (I think), the Astoria line platforms were cut back to BMT specs, and that line became solely BMT while the Flushing line reverted to solely IRT.
:-) Andrew
>>> it was eventually decided that the system was no longer working well <<<
It wasn't how well it was working, but the fact that since unification in 1940, all the fares were going into the same pocket, so there was no longer any economic reason for both the BMT and IRT to run on the same tracks. WW II delayed the change because the BoT wanted to keep as much equipment running as possible, particularly the recently remanufactured Q cars, without availability of new equipment.
Tom
A division, formerly known as the IRT (interborough rapid transit) comprised of all the numbered train lines the Times Square-GC shuttle.
B division, formerly known as BMT/IND comprised of all the lettered train lines
Peace,
ANDEE
A Division is the former IRT lines, B Division is the former BMT and IND lines. It is important to note that the equipment, platforms and tunnels are built to different specifications. A Division cars are 50 feet long (more or less) and nine feet wide (more or less) and have three doors on each side of the cars. B Division cars are ten feet wide and either 60 or 75 feet long, but all B division structures and tunnels will accomodate AFAIK 75 foot trains. All B Div cars have four doors on each side of the train, a train of ten 60' cars has eight more loading doors than a train of eight 75' cars, and so can be loaded faster.
The oldest cars in service (and the only carbon steel cars left in service) are the Redbirds on A Division. These will be moved to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean later this year or early next. I do not know if the fish will need Metrocards in order to live in the cars.
Elias
The fish better have Metrocards, or the our lovable mayor will have the Habor Unit of NYPD arrest them on Theft of Service charges. We cannot tolerate quality of life crimes even from the finny population.
Did you look under "Glossary of Subway Terminology and Abbreviations"?
Do you read my message? I looked under FAQ and couldn't find the glossary.
Divisions:
A........numbered trains + Grand Central Shuttle
B........all lettered trains except GCS
C........work trains & construction flagging
'____
8| 64....long
I imagine the old rules are still true:
A Div is the IRT, but there are (were?) TWO "B" divisions - B1 was the BMT lines and B2 was the IND. Chrystie street mixed the gene pool but B1 and B2 were separate ...
Maybe some history is in order to explain the divisions.
Already explained is a= IRT; one of the private operators of the original system before unification under city operation in 1940: Interborough Rapid Transit Company operated the present A division from 1904-1940;also had control of the Manhattan Railway Company in the same period which was the Manhattan els.The original [1904]IRT system had clearances for the cars being run today so they've never been able to rub the bigger cars of the B division there.
Hence the lines being numbered and it being kept a separate system.
B-1 Division [for operating purposes] former BMT lines...Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Co. private operator of that system before unification under the city in 1940. Had been the Brooklyn Rapid Transit until about 1920 when they were reorganized to get out from under the lawsuits resulting from the Malbone St. wreck [near Prospect Park on the present Franklin shuttle trackage].
B-2 div. Former IND lines...originally and always city-owned and operated INDependent City Owned Rapid Transit Railroad.
BMT and IND merged into B division November 1967 separated into zone one and zone 2 to keep managing districts manageable
A Division-1,2,3,4,5,6,7,(Former 8),9,S(42 street)
B division-A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,L,M,N,Q,,R,S,V,W,Z
And Yes I know the V isn't running yet.
The former 8 no longer exists. It's former, as you said. It's as much in A Division as the Culver shuttle is in B Division. Let's stop placing all this emphasis on a route number that never even appeared on the rolling stock, shall we?
B1 also had two divisions Eastern and Southern.
Virginia Division - BMT
Is it possible to just stay on the 6 and see the old City Hall Stop? I noticed that they said last stop and did not check the train to make sure everyone was off.
Is it possible to just stay on the 6 and see the old City Hall Stop? I noticed that they said last stop and did not check the train to make sure everyone was off.
The rules keep changing, and not all train crews are aware of the latest versions. It appears to be the case right now that the loop is mainline track and therefore that you can ride around. Once again, however, not all crews know this, and you very well might be required to get off at Brooklyn Bridge.
It is very possible. Hardly anyone checks the train, unlike the (5) at Bowling Green, where the CR may flash the lights, and people on the platform inform passengers on the train that this is the last stop.
Both lines use a loop to turn around. The (6) has City Hall, the (5) has South Ferry.
It is possible and is done without a problem, if anything the C/R will let you ride along if you get on at Brooklyn Bridge and ask Nicely.
wHEN i WENT AROUND THE LOOP A (SORRY) few weeks ago the lights at the station were very dim and I had to stand right next to the door and cup my hands to see out well.
Had I thought about it then I would have switched cars just as we were leaving the BB station and been in between cars when going past the City Hall station.
Hopefully all of us Sub-Talkers who are going on the March of Dimes D-Types to the Docks on 8/26 will make a field trip on the loop since Chambers Street - J Line is the starting point.
Thurston, BMTman, Lou from Brooklyn, Mr. SMEE, Sparky and of course Heypaul......You guys up for it ??????
It's very possible. I was cutting school one day and had some free time, so I rode down there and went thru the loop twice. Stay near the last car, especially near noon, and you should be fine.
Since the trains are on 5 min or so headways, and the train generally spends less than a minute on the downtown plat: when I went, it spent about 45 secs on the plat., a minute in the loop, and the other 3-4 minutes sitting on the uptown plat.
Since the flip on the Manhattan Bridge, I've noticed a lot of trips taking over four minutes to get from Lexington Avenue to Queensboro Plaza. That may sound impressive, but really isn't. Many trips before the flip were between 3 and 4 minutes, with some trains exceeding 50 MPH at the fastest point. Most N trains I've been on now barely pass 40. Let's consider some factors:
A new motorman's punch box was installed near signal G2 41 at the Lexington Avenue station. Attached to the "10" stop sign is a sign saying that "All trains must punch."
Signal G2 41 stays red with the arm up until a punch has been detected, while others beyond it clear in the usual manner.
The signal G2 102 X4, south of both the portal and the switch between G2 and GD2 sometimes stays red until the train is either approaching signal G2 97, or has passed it. This forces the train to slow down--or in some cases stop--until the G2 102 X4 clears. The train, if accepting the bottom green indication at that signal, then has to crawl up to the Queensboro Plaza station at a grade I have estimated at 2%. The train rarely exceeds 20 MPH at this point, and, if necessary, slows to the 15 MPH speed limit at QBP.
Since long before the flip, I would do the following:
-Be on a train of R32's or R40 slants on an N train headed for Queens.
-Once I felt the jolt of the train as it begins to accelerate, I would play on my MiniDisc player a song called "Bodyrock" by an artist called Moby, which I recorded from an MP3 played at 102%. It takes 3.5 minutes to play this track.
-I would use the following scale to rate the ride: 3:00-3:20: Excellent, 3:20-3:40: Fair, 3:40+: Poor.
Sometimes, I would start a chronograph once three minutes of the song have played, and would add the amount shown on the chronograph to 3 minutes. Sometimes I would start the clock once the train started moving. I stopped it once the train had stopped near the 10 sign at QBP.
Today was a little bit different. After coming downstairs from the downtown (6) train platform at Lexington Avenue/60 St, I started walking to the front. As I got near the middle of the platform, a (W) train pulls in on G2 track. I boarded the third car of the train, and did the regular routine for that section of the line, as if I were at the front, but this time, sitting at a window seat in that train of R68A cars. I couldn't believe the quick ride that was had on that trip. Instead of starting the cronograph at 3 minutes into the song/trip, this time I started it at 2. Once the train stopped at QBP, I noticed the song was still playing, and the chronograph was in the mid-3:20's. The train stopped, and I stopped the chronograph. The total time: 3:26. Rating: fair. The first time I've been on a ride like that through that tube in a long time. Too bad it wasn't in the first car, or on a train with a viewable front window. I have a few hypotheses as to why I had such a good ride:
- R68A's accelerate quicker than other cars.
- Some TO's more experienced with this section of tunnel were switched from the (N) to the (W).
- There were no trains occupying the space between signal G2 41 and the signals following G2 102 X4 on tracks G2 and GD2.
- The TO was following Zman's TO guides (message #193348 for the 60th Street tube).
That's all I can think of. Any other hypotheses or confirming hypotheses listed here may be posted here.
I hope someone knows what's going on in this tube. The flip, I believe, meant chaos to it!
All trains have to punch thanks to the W...
If you get a good MOTORMAN (not a T/O) you will hit the GT's as the clear from Yellow, a real good one might follow Zman's instructions and hit them as they clear from red.
A lot of my rides have been with T/O's that grab brake until they get a green. It has not been fun through the 60th lately.
This morning's R40slant run on a N had a good Motorman. We were at speed (couldn't see the speedometer when he was in parallel) as we hit the yellows going green. We seemed never to pass a yellow they always went green at the last possible moment from disappearing from view.
Sunday a little kid and his dad were on the 'N' at the front window (R-32) when I got on at 28th Street uptown. After he looked back at me looking over his head, he said, "You like trains?"
I got to talking to the kid, 9 or 10 years old, who seemed fascinated by looking at the speedometer reading a whopping 22 mph as we rambled up Broadway. When we got to the 60th St. tube, I told him to be sure to check it out in the tunnel because we might even get up into the (wow!) forties. I bet the T/O heard us, 'cause we managed to get all the way to 54 mph! I had to explain that we couldn't go that fast all the time because it wasn't safe, that you can only go that fast when there is a 'long straight line' with no stations, and that the rest of the subway had too many curves. I tried to tell him about Acela Express, but I don't think it really sunk in.
I always try to encourage young railfans when I see them....Why just the other day I showed this kid (couldn't of been more than 6) how to read signals from a side window...that's all he'll have...
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>>>R68A's accelerate quicker than other cars
I've been saying this for the longest, but does the board believe me? Noooooooooo.
>>>>>>>The TO was following Zman's TO guides (message #193348 for the 60th Street tube).
Yet another satisfied customer. If you're interested, mail your payment to.....
Louie the Shylock
Bensonhurst, Brooklyn
Make sure to note on the check the words "Towards Zman DEBT".
DEBT stands for (D)escription of operating the (E)and(B) lines, and (T)unnels.
Having finally had achance to operate these classes, I'll agree that the 68As do accelerate quickly. Now a question - how the hell do you get them to stop without sliding all over the place? I've got a handle on the 68s and can stop them where I want, but the 68As seem to have a mind of their own.
>>>>>>>>>>Now a question - how the hell do you get them to stop without sliding all over the place? I've got a handle on the 68s and can stop them where I want, but the 68As seem to have a mind of their own.
It's extremely difficult, but not impossible. You can't fan the brake on an R68A so you have to "baby" the brake valve. You grab like 35-40 lbs to start and make small, gradual movements up or down with the brake valve. That's what seems to work.
Once a Hippo gets up to speed inertia take control, but what ever you do don't get her mad at you :-)
Mr t__:^)
Nah, unlike the BMT standards, the R-68s don't go around picking fights.
In the following story: F indicates the female announcer's voice, and M indicates the male announcer's voice.
Consider if you will, a train of R142A cars, operating on a Manhattan-bound 6 local train. This train is about to enter the East 149th Street station. The train stops, and the doors open. All seems normal. The automated announcement is played as the doors finish opening. You board the train in the conductor's car as the announcements play.
F: This is a Manhattan-bound Six train. The next stop is East One Hundred Forty-third Street-Saint--
M: Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
With that, the doors close with the traditional ding-dong, and the train leaves the station. As the train travels between stops, you hear the following on the PA.
F: What's the big idea?
M: What?
F: You interrupted me again!
M: What am I supposed to do? I have to warn the people on this train that the doors are closing.
F: Yeah, but not while I'm trying to tell these people what the next stop is! It's not polite!
As the argument continues, you look in to the cab window to find the puzzled conductor looking at the diagnostics monitor, trying to solve the problem of the arguing voices. As the train enters the next station, the female voice interrupts the male voice.
F: [yelling] Listen, I gotta tell the people now that [normal] This is East One Hundred Forty-third Street-Saint Mary's Street.
M: Who is Saint Mary anyway?
F: Shhhhh!
The announcements then proceeded in a normal fashion, and the train left. The male voice says something over the PA:
M: There aren't any signs that say "Saint Mary's Street" at that station!
F: How do you know? You're just a voice! You ain't got no eyes, you know.
M: Yow do you know there are? You're a voice, too.
F: There's gotta be at least one sign there. It says "Saint Mary's Street" on my script!
M: How do you know they haven't changed it by now?
F: Cuz the would've changed the script!
M: I never got a script change. The conductor says there's a Q and a W train stopping at 14th Street.
F: Shhh, shhh. This is Cypress Avenue. Never mind about them Q and W trains. The point is you shouldn't be interrupting me! Now be quiet!
The train stops, normal routine is followed, and the train leaves the station. The PA system is silent, almost all the way into the next station. Then...
M: What do you mean I shouldn't be interrupting--
F: This is Brook Avenue.
The train stops and the doors open.
F: This is a Manhattan-bound Six train. The next stop is Third Avenue-One Hun--
M: Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
The doors close and the train leaves the station. Halfway into the next station...
F: You did it again!
M: What am I supposed to do, shut up and let the doors close while you're still yakking away?
F: I don't take THAT long! I'm talking to people on a subway train over a PA system, not to a girlfriend on the phone! It's not polite, anyway!
M: Yak, yak, yak! You're doing it again.
F: Shut up. This is Third Avenue-One Hundred Thirty-eighth Street.
The normal routine occurs yet again. At some point after the train leaves the station...
F: I don't like it when you interrupt me. If you had a face, I'd slap you in it!
M: With what, your voice? Come on, I gotta warn the people.
F: I've had it with your [immitating M] "stand clear of the closing doors, please" [yelling] interrupting me garbage. You just don't know when to shut up, do you?
M: No, YOU have that problem. It's the conductor's fault, anyway.
F: Nope, neither you, nor the conductor knows how to wait. [immitating Anne Robinson] You are the weakest links. Goodbye. [Walk of Shame music plays]
A few of the people in the car laugh at the Anne Robinson immitation. A few people are waiting by the side doors and the station platform comes into view.
M: Ladies and gentlemen, we apologize for the unavoidable delay. [whispering] Say it, already.
F: This is One Hundred Twenty-fifth Street
M: Transfer is available to the Four, and Five trains. Conne--
The train stops and the doors open before the male announcer completes that word.
F: This is a Brooklyn Bridge-bound Six train. The next stop is One Hundred Sixteenth Street.
M: Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
The doors close an the train leaves.
M: YOU interrupted ME!
F: Yes, how did that feel?
M: Annoying. I never got to tell them about Metro North or the M60 bus.
F: OK, how about this: we both stay quiet, and let the conductor make his own announcements.
M: Agreed. You're on your own, now.
The puzzled conductor failed to make any announcements for the remainder of the trip downtown and back to Pelham Bay Park, relying on the automated announcements to make them. Therefore, the PA remained silent for the rest of the trip.
The Moral: Never interrupt the automated announcements. The consequences may not be as pleasant as they seem. ;-) Goodbye.
I just hope Jerry Zuckerman doesn't see this. You have basically taken from his script for "Airplane".
>>>I just hope Jerry Zuckerman doesn't see this. You have basically taken from his script for "Airplane". <<<
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing, but wanted to behave, funny none the less.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee - you behave? Perish the thought.
LOL...Thank YOU, I needed that.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've never seen--or recall seeing--that movie.
LOL :-) Wouldn't that be a great start to the morning for 6 riders!
it would be hilarious if that happened. thanks for the story 137th St.
How was it possible that you recorded the exact phrases and the words which the female and male voices have spoken over the P/A?
Also, did the female voice sound like a normal person's voice, or the automated voice?
Male (actual) conductors make the manual announcements about the connections, transfers, and "Stand clear of the closing doors, please". This is normal. I've experienced it with a very good conductor, with a VERY AUDIBLE female voice. It was on a Brooklyn Bridge bound #6 train with the clear voice of a male, 40-50 year old, conductor.
I sure would have liked to experienced what you went through! Also, I like your style of writing. Especially on this part: "Consider if you will, a train of R142A cars, operating on a..." It sounds very intelligent. ... .
Male (actual) conductors make the manual announcements about the connections, transfers, and "Stand clear of the closing doors, please". This is normal. I've experienced it with a very good conductor, with a VERY AUDIBLE female voice. It was on a Brooklyn Bridge bound #6 train with the clear voice of a male, 40-50 year old, conductor.
Then how come all the "male (actual) conductors" sound alike? And why don't they make the CORRECT transfer announcements (eg. change to the Q, W, etc. at 14th St.-Union Sqr.)? Answer: Because you're wrong and they're automated.
Seth
What do you expect from a dumbass who actually considered R36s post as something other than fiction?
I think my anti-apostrophe campaign went too far:
"What do you expect from a dumbass who actually considered R36s post as something other than fiction?"
How was it possible that you recorded the exact phrases and the words which the female and male voices have spoken over the P/A?
There was a court stenographer on board, and he just got the transcript from her.
Consider if you will, I heard that the duo will be working the L train late nights. Maybe if you wait at Livonia Ave in the middle of the night, you'll be able to catch them.
[How was it possible that you recorded the exact phrases and the words which the female and male voices have spoken over the P/A?]
As far as the regular station announcements, I used a microphone attached to my portable Mini Disc redorder.
The rest is pure fiction.
Fantastic story!!!
In the following story: F indicates the female announcer's voice, and M indicates the male announcer's voice.
Consider if you will, a train of R142A cars, operating on a Manhattan-bound 6 local train. This train is about to enter the East 149th Street station. The train stops, and the doors open. All seems normal. The automated announcement is played as the doors finish opening. You board the train in the conductor's car as the announcements play.
F: This is a Manhattan-bound Six train. The next stop is East One Hundred Forty-third Street-Saint--
M: Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
With that, the doors close with the traditional ding-dong, and the train leaves the station. As the train travels between stops, you hear the following on the PA.
F: What's the big idea?
M: What?
F: You interrupted me again!
M: What am I supposed to do? I have to warn the people on this train that the doors are closing.
F: Yeah, but not while I'm trying to tell these people what the next stop is! It's not polite!
As the argument continues, you look in to the cab window to find the puzzled conductor looking at the diagnostics monitor, trying to solve the problem of the arguing voices. As the train enters the next station, the female voice interrupts the male voice.
F: [yelling] Listen, I gotta tell the people now that [normal] This is East One Hundred Forty-third Street-Saint Mary's Street.
M: Who is Saint Mary anyway?
F: Shhhhh!
The announcements then proceeded in a normal fashion, and the train left. The male voice says something over the PA:
M: There aren't any signs that say "Saint Mary's Street" at that station!
F: How do you know? You're just a voice! You ain't got no eyes, you know.
M: Yow do you know there are? You're a voice, too.
F: There's gotta be at least one sign there. It says "Saint Mary's Street" on my script!
M: How do you know they haven't changed it by now?
F: Cuz the would've changed the script!
M: I never got a script change. The conductor says there's a Q and a W train stopping at 14th Street.
F: Shhh, shhh. This is Cypress Avenue. Never mind about them Q and W trains. The point is you shouldn't be interrupting me! Now be quiet!
The train stops, normal routine is followed, and the train leaves the station. The PA system is silent, almost all the way into the next station. Then...
M: What do you mean I shouldn't be interrupting--
F: This is Brook Avenue.
The train stops and the doors open.
F: This is a Manhattan-bound Six train. The next stop is Third Avenue-One Hun--
M: Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
The doors close and the train leaves the station. Halfway into the next station...
F: You did it again!
M: What am I supposed to do, shut up and let the doors close while you're still yakking away?
F: I don't take THAT long! I'm talking to people on a subway train over a PA system, not to a girlfriend on the phone! It's not polite, anyway!
M: Yak, yak, yak! You're doing it again.
F: Shut up. This is Third Avenue-One Hundred Thirty-eighth Street.
The normal routine occurs yet again. At some point after the train leaves the station...
F: I don't like it when you interrupt me. If you had a face, I'd slap you in it!
M: With what, your voice? Come on, I gotta warn the people.
F: I've had it with your [immitating M] "stand clear of the closing doors, please" [yelling] interrupting me garbage. You just don't know when to shut up, do you?
M: No, YOU have that problem. It's the conductor's fault, anyway.
F: Nope, neither you, nor the conductor knows how to wait. [immitating Anne Robinson] You are the weakest links. Goodbye. [Walk of Shame music plays]
Play Walk of Shame music. If you have trouble, click here.
A few of the people in the car laugh at the Anne Robinson immitation. A few people are waiting by the side doors and the station platform comes into view.
M: Ladies and gentlemen, we apologize for the unavoidable delay. [whispering] Say it, already.
F: This is One Hundred Twenty-fifth Street
M: Transfer is available to the Four, and Five trains. Conne--
The train stops and the doors open before the male announcer completes that word.
F: This is a Brooklyn Bridge-bound Six train. The next stop is One Hundred Sixteenth Street.
M: Stand clear of the closing doors, please.
The doors close an the train leaves.
M: YOU interrupted ME!
F: Yes, how did that feel?
M: Annoying. I never got to tell them about Metro North or the M60 bus.
F: OK, how about this: we both stay quiet, and let the conductor make his own announcements.
M: Agreed. You're on your own, now.
The puzzled conductor failed to make any announcements for the remainder of the trip downtown and back to Pelham Bay Park, relying on the automated announcements to make them. Therefore, the PA remained silent for the rest of the trip.
The Moral: Never interrupt the automated announcements. The consequences may not be as pleasant as they seem. ;-) Goodbye.
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/_whatsnew.msnw
R142 # 2 beta train and r36 #7 beta train avial for download.\
check out the preview pic r44/r46 blue strip and one without blue strip.
also, preview pic of the r134.
Out of the millions of people in this city and hundreds of trains on the tracks, we SubTalkers always seem to find one another. On my way to work this morning, I ran into Qtraindash7 at Main St, en route to Staten Island. As luck would have it, the A/C working great on our Subway Series car, and the express ride was nice and fast, at least until the timers before Queensboro Plaza. We saw the LIRR going by at Woodside and wondered how commuters around Hicksville were coping this morning. We caught up to the train in front of us and slowed down in the Steinway tubes, and we sat in the tunnel for a minute or two before Times Square. We just caught a downtown 1 which was rather packed; an R-142 2 train had arrived at the same time, and everyone was scrambling from the express to the local. I rode to 28 St, and Qtrain continued down to South Ferry.
Keep your eye out... we're out there...
Yeah, I see SUBtalkers all the time...avoid them like the plague. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
How do you spot a subtalker?
By the glazed expression on their face, the mumblings about Redfins and railfan windows, their uncanny ability to know just how fast the motorman will approach the timer, and to mimic the conductor's announcements in advance...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL ... some ware red suspenders & have a long white beard ;-)
Mr t__:^)
LOL! Sounds like Santa Claus is one too!
Or blue suspenders and a salt'n'pepper beard...
(Photo by Anon_e_mouse Jr.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or, in this case, it also helps if you've met in person before... :)
And I just made that 7 train less than a minute before the doors closed. And I gravitated toward the front car when I heard someone call my name!
Yup we Subtalkers are out there. Even though I've ocasionally chatted with T/O's none of them ever asked if I was from Subtalk.
And getting off the bus at Main+Kissena saves a few minutes, and often gets me to that train before it pulls out.
By the way there are signs all across the subway that say "don't run for this train there's another one just like it". Well as a railfan that's not always true, since you'll be running when you see slants on the W.
Does the M go to 9Av or to Bay Parkway during Middays?
9 Avenue
Film Forum
209 West Houston Street (betw. 6th & 7th Ave)
Synopsis and showtimes for
Pelham 1-2-3 at Film Forum
Today. I rode the Subway. Here it is.
First off started out with R32 #38xx on the (E). The A/C was on but it was not so COLD and did not feel HOT!
Got off at 7 Ave and Transfer to the (D) and got on R68 #2555 and the A/C was on and it went FAST!!! Took it to 205 St. And took a Break for a bit.
Then a few Hours later. Walk to the Mosholu Parkway and there was a G.O. going on and I had to take a N/B (4). So I got on a Redbird #9292 and it was a good ride. The train was stuck between Mosholu Parkway and Woodlawn for a FEW Minutes. Then I saw a R62 passing by on the EXPRESS Track when the train was stuck there. Then the train Moved and switch tracks and when the train got into Woodlawn. Saw a R62 on the other side and got off to take that one to go to the City. And the Doors did not open and the train left without anybody on broad( Could have been a OOS car as a backup.) Then I rebroaded Redbird #9292 and a Minute or 2 after that. It left the station and the train went on the EXPRESS Tracks and it was a bit SLOW on the EXPRESS Tracks b/c there was Workers on the tracks and there was YELLOW Flags on the tracks also. The train went Local after Kingsbridge Road and by time it got to Burnside. Saw the same OOS R62 that I saw at Woodlawn stood there on the EXPRESS Tracks. Got off at 125 St.
So I waited for a (6) and got on R-142A #7295. This was my 3rd time on it(The others where #7325 and #7235.) The A/C was on and some parts of the guy talking saying "Please Stand clear of the closeing doors please" was cut off. Got off and 59 St.
Then took a (R) to Queens and got R46(idk the # of the car since I forgot and slept some of the time on the R46.) The A/C was on and this was the final car of the day. Got off at 71 Ave. And went to the bank and took the BUS Home. And that's it for NOW! :)
i was reading up on the derailment. Watching TV on the 10 o clock news, people were not happy. One guy said "if u think about how much money we pay a month, u think they can make an announcement" I say he needs to stop bitchin and be glad that Trains are still running!!
Anyways i noticed that the car was 9807. An M-3. M-3s are known for being ruff riding. Not to mention that it was the port Jefferson branch. I wonder about that branch. The speeds are low, like 40-45. The Trains give the Engineer a limited speed code. Not to mention there have been to recent derailments in the same area. Hmmmmmm...........
So I'm not the only one who thinks M-3's ride rough, rougher than the M-1's.
yea they are rough riding. But M3s beat an M1 anyday. M3s are rare on the Far Rock branch. i wonder why. I have been told that a Train of all M3s will have a Engineer flyin!!
Here is a list of new suway sevices for my 2 Avenue plan
T 2 Avenue local
All times:Local from Whitehall street to 125 Street
U 2 Avenue express
All times:Express in Manhattha local in The Bronx from Whitehall Street to Gun Hill road.
X 2 Avenue express
Rush hour and Middays:Express from Grands Street to 205 street.
Other times:Use U
I think the 2nd Ave services should mingle in some way with the rest of the system, don't you?
Nope, he is going with some plans of the IND Second System. Though the disruptions might make a few people mad.
>>>....might make a few people mad.<<<
Ya know what say? Fuckem
Peace,
ANDEE
So the "Y" train could be the Whitehall St - 71rst Av/Forest Hills service? Express in Queens, via 63rd St, then local in Manhattan?
I strongly recommend if you haven't done so already to look at the INDNOT.NT3 Bahn layout. This layout shows a very good 2nd Ave plan which provides a cross-platform connection to the 6th Ave Grand St tracks with 6th Ave tracks in the middle and 2nd Ave tracks on the outside. Then north/south of the station is a switch that lets the 2nd Ave trains merge in and go over the bridge. The plan there is good and even though it only shows the IND and the bridge is only a hidden loop turning the Qs that run over it back around before they see Brooklyn, it is still good inspiration. Of course, you have to go through all the BAHN downloading etc.
1) Change Woodhaven to Express stop.{}
2) Let Woodhaven remain the Same, a local stop.{}
3) Pass the Damn stop bothways, last one off turn off the lights.{}
avid
How about #4 I DON'T CARE-
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
#5 Change Woodhaven Blvd.on the J/Z to an express stop. They would first have to build the third track!
Are you the t.v.guy???????
Are you the t.v.guy???????
Nope. I'm the LIRR History guy
sorry man!
ummmmmmm. Isnt Woodhaven Blvd on the J/Z lines an EXPRESS stop already?
The J/Z doesn't even have an express track there. If it did, no, Woodhaven would be a local stop.
2
Making it express is a useless slowdown for the express, especially during rush hour. The few people that live in the area (it's mostly commercial - the Queens Mall, and a bunch of other stores) can take the local 3 stops to Roosevelt.
The few people that live in the area (it's mostly commercial - the Queens Mall, and a bunch of other stores)...
How about patrons and employees of the mall, and passengers who transfer from the six or seven bus lines at the station?
You forgot one other choice: ][ means park unattended R-32 rolling stock in the express track both ways.
It seems that when it comes to equipment, redbirds seem to take up most of the space on subtalk. People either love them or hate them. What is so special about them to generate so much writing?
Michael
They are headed for the fishes..
they been a part of New York City Subway scene for a loooooooooong time..
Chalk it up to Bittersweet nostalgia and knowing they are not too long fo rthe world.
IMHO....they are trains that have outlived their usefullness, if there is such a word, what with all their rust....etc,,,
IT"S TIME TO LET THEM GO
Peace,
AANDEE
they did not outlive their usefulness... they killed it!
Rust - the thing that holds the entire system together.
I remember how much I hated everything new that replaced the old prewar equipment that I loved in my growing up years, including the present day redbirds. Funny how when thing become part of the scene you later got to know one feels like they're sorry to see them go.
Last visit to NYC 3/2000 I was rather tickled to get one on the 4 or 6 where R62 types predominated. Time marches on and I won't be around long enough to see the system 40 years from now.
I think it's simply because they're about to die out.
The R26, R29, and two varieties each of R33 and R36 were hardly special when they were introduced. They were pretty much a continuation of the tradition of flat, painted carbon steel subway cars. But with every other car class of that type now gone, these are the last of their kind. It's natural for there to be some sadness and nostalgia about them.
I'll miss the variety of having some cars that are bright red instead of stainless steel. But I won't miss the swaying motion, the jerky brake action, the screeching, or the intermittent air conditioning.
:-) Andrew
Well, they are the cars that many of us have grown up with, (Well, actually I like the R1-9s even better... ) and they have left an impression, like a favored song, or perhaps the front stoop at grandma's house. It is a part of who we are. And so with their passing, it is like a part of our history slipping off into the nothingness that is the end of all life (as far as the body is concerned).
And so it is a bit of our own selves that is leaving us. But of course, for those who did not grow up in the city, with the smell of the cars, the steel dust, and the damp tunnels, with the sound of the traction motors winding up, with the flicker of the incandescent lamps and the enamaled straps...
Well outsiders only see the rusting shell of what once was the soul of life... they see but a hot nosisome car... but I, I remember riding an R-27 down to Whitehall Street one winter day in 1966, the car wasn't that old then, and the flourscent lighting, the clean pink seats, the row of stainless steel handgrips... and I went to sea with the Navy... to Vietnam... and left behind an age of innoscents...
Well, our contract with the good Lord says, we must grow older, but we need not forget, that which is a part of us, is a part of us forever.
Elias
Well said. [clapping] I couldn't agree more.
Based on my LIMITED knowledge of the system, I know that each system was built to different specifications and that cars can't operate on all lines.
What type of car will take over the IRT lines as the redbirds fly away? Can some of the existing fleet service the IRT or will a new type of car be built?
Michael
The R142s and R142A's will take over for the entire redbird fleet, though they won't necessarily go exactly where the redbirds are. The 7 is getting all R62A's where it had all redbirds, while (I think) the 3, 5 and 6 will get all R142s and R142A's while they weren't all redbirds. The 2 is a simple case of redbirds for R142s, tit for tat. The 1/9 will continue to run all R62A's just like before.
I'm no authority on this, so by all means anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.
:-) Andrew
I have only 1 correction being a frequent lexington line commuter,
which is the 5 was all redbirds before the 142s came , then later the 62As arrived on the 5
Hello?
The R142s and R142As are arriving on the property daily. These new cars will send the Redbirds to sea. It takes New cars to replace old ones.
Elias
All A division IRT Lines ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 Times Square Shuttle) equipment can operate on every line and trackage in the system, they can also operate on the B division Trackage ( All the Letter lines)but not in revenue service since it won't be too safe with the large platform gap because A division cars are not as wide. B division cannot go onto IRT Trackage because of their large size. That is the General gist of the differences between lines in the NYC Subway, all the trackage in the system is Standard gauge trackage just like regular tracks anywhere else, referring to the distance between them and such (eg. freight, regular rail service) Hope that gives you the general idea, please correct me anyone or add.
All A division IRT Lines ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 Times Square Shuttle) equipment can operate on every line and trackage in the system, they can also operate on the B division Trackage
You forgot one important bit: Trip cocks on division A are on the starboard side of the train, and on division B they are on the port side, relative to forward motion. When A-div. equuipment runs on the B-div it requires special dual-tripper lead cars.
- pjd
And that means a single WF R-33 on each end.
What class of cars would get tripcocks on each end when the WF R-33 singles are retired?
--Mark
The R-127/134 class of cars has dual (quad) tripcocks. I think that the R-21's used in revenue collections have them also. Finally, I've hoped the TA would keep some R-33WF's around as work motors to eliminate the need for future purchases of cars like the R-127/134.
Either that or B division equipment, like R32's, on each end.
Rumor has it that only R-62's and R-62A's can stop at South Ferry due to the gap fillers. (The ones at Union Square are apparently more tolerant.) Any IRT equipment can pass through South Ferry, but earplugs are recommended for those standing on the platform.
For us railfans the other important feature is the failfan window or lack there of.
My first trains in NYC were IRT cars on the #7 when they were blue & white ... so Red Birds are special to me, but I've come to enjoy a ride in a Slant 40, a R32 or a R38 almost as much.
Grade timers & other obsticles have taken away a lot of the joy, so it's a real treat to ride PATH or one of the Boston cars that still regulary reach 50 MPH.
Mr t__:^)
""For us railfans the other important feature is the failfan window or lack there of.""
THE NEW JUNKERS DO NOT HAVE THEM !!
I wonder what happens the cars after it ran over a person? Since a was on the car 8887 (#2 redbird at penn station going uptown about 4-6 years ago) when it ran over a boy.(I heard help! help! Amanda! lightly right afterwards the door closed and the train jumped right after it moved. The TO or conductor said to each other that the train killed a boy. The train moved slowly then stayed at times square when I decided to walk to my destination)I belived th kid was playing around at the platform since I seen a bunch of other kids and the boy screamed Amanda.
That was the most difficult post to read in quite some time. What the hell are you talking about?
If it's "What happens to the train after it runs over a person?" (a pretty disgusting question) the answer would be that it is taken out of service until the investigation is finished, then cleaned, disinfected, and put back on the road.
-Hank
I was hoping to never to see that car ever again
No, its not difficult, its your lack of expanding the way you read. He was describing his experience on a 2 when the train ran over a kid...not hard...Cmon wake up!
It's hard if you've got a significant command of the english language.
-Hank
Engish bad very. Undirstood no.
hey man dont diss other peepul what did they do to you dont be stoopid
Lern to spel Pig.
LOL!
I's be edumacated as good as u.
Me fail english? Unpossible!
I can speel Pig.
I can spell pig, Pee Ohhh ErrrR QAY.
Pee Ohhh ErrrR QAY.
Stop urinating on this board! :+(
It's not difficult for you because you obviously have the same poor command of the english language.
You're right--it's not too hard to understand. He was asking what happens to a train car that runs someone over--maybe wanting to know if it's taken out of service, has its number changed, etc.
Seth
it's not too hard to understand
Yeah, but it shouldn't be hard to understand at all.
Try this:
I was riding on a #2 train and I think it hit somebody. What actually happens to the train and the crew when a train actually does hit someone?
See, that's not hard to understand - right?
Yup. So, what happens?
Seth
Well, first they take it downtown for questioning......
Does it get to take a drug test?
avid
First, the crew is taken off the train. They are escorted by a TSS for 'incident' testing. The crew is then allowed time off for stress if needed.
The train is removed from service. It is usually operated by a TSS to a maintenance Shop for inspection. At that time all items that may have contributed t the incident such as, headlights, vision glass, wiper, car body height, propulsion, brakes, horn or whistle are all checked. In addition, the train is visually inspected for any body parts that may have been lodged anywhere on the car itself. Of course, the car is cleaned before being returned to service.
Thanks
Seth
technically what happens? I've never seen it, but if it obeys the laws of physics, the wheel probably just keeps moving and crushes and/or slices the body into 2 pieces, unless the kid is lucky and manages to get in between the rails and stays low to the ground.
I don't think the train is supposed to keep moving if they think a person might be trapped on the roadbed between cars, unless for some reason they were ordered to do so.
So what the train ran over? Thank god thats is not a kid.
I'm not saying it couldn't have been a kid, but I'm surprised that they kept moving if it was.
If it was a tourist, they shoulda put the train into full throttle!
(...don't mind me)
ha, that reminds me for some reason that time when we wanted to re-visit the loop track at GCT, and that lady wanted to join along, "hey granny wanna see sumthin cool?"
I am also not sure what you are asking. Try to re-read your posting and fill in the missing parts. I'll be happy to answer.
3 days off
And some serious therapy.
-Hank
Well if you were watching the news tonite you probably heard that Midway (a large regional Airline) just declared bankruptcy and the industry as a whole stands to loose 2 BILLION dollars this year. In that context Amtrak looks like an amazing sucess story. The only problem seems to be that the airlines are trying to make it up by CUTTING prices. We can only hope this plan backfires and customers have to once again pay the TRUE cost of travel. Now if you don't mind me I need to go revel in this news.
Die Airlines Die! Amtrak Forever!
Ummm....
Amtrak's 3 billion in the whole right now, is pawning off assets to stay alfoat operationally, and has failed to significanty grow ridership (== revenue) and control costs.
Don't forget that right now, JetBlue is the darling of the aviation market, and doing better than expected, and oh yeah, is starting to fly upstate, which could effectively kill the Empire Corridior past Albany.
And, Amtrak has never turned a cent in profit in 30 years. Even airlines aren't that bad. Hell, dot coms arn't even that bad.
Amtrak's 3 billion in the whole right now, is pawning off assets to stay alfoat operationally, and has failed to significanty grow ridership (== revenue) and control costs.
Don't forget that right now, JetBlue is the darling of the aviation market, and doing better than expected, and oh yeah, is starting to fly upstate, which could effectively kill the Empire Corridior past Albany.
Airlines have long been a very cyclical industry. They tend to either make huge amounts of money or lose huge amounts of money depending on economic conditions and other factors. There are surprisingly few low-profit/break-even/low-loss periods. Several airlines have managed to survive and thrive because over a long enough time frame the big profits outweigh the big losses. Needless to say, there have been many failures too.
Amtrak has never turned a cent in profit in 30 years. Even airlines aren't that bad.
"Federal funding for passenger trains is a joke: $361 million for Amtrak,...and $14 billion for airports in this fiscal year."
The Providence (R.I.) Journal, in an August 9 editorial
That's OK. Te way Amtrak was set up and chartered, it has no chance of making a profit. Why should we pretend it should? It offers a valuable service deserving of subsidies. Airlines are heavily subsidized, even the "profitable" ones - why not Amtrak?
is starting to fly upstate, which could effectively kill the Empire Corridior past Albany.
"Starting"? I thought JetBlue got much of its initial route network serving upstate NY airports.
Anyway, over the last year or so Amtrak's Empire Corridor ridership west of Albany has dropped significantly, with just about everyone agreeing that it's because of JetBlue.
Well, JetBlue isn't very old :) And if they keep up their current state of affiairs, I'd say the Empire Corridor west of Albany is toast. Pretty much nobody wants to go up there in an Amfleet when you can go up there in a *new* Airbus with all the creature features you'd need to keep occupied for an hour or so flight.
And I'm sure Mike will pop in here talking about how great Sooperliners and rotting old pullmans are and how Amtrak's ridership would quadruple if that was all they ran, but it ain't so. people are flying up there because it's less of a bother spending a few hours in airports, etc, than it is to spend 1/2 a day on some train, sitting on some siding in the dark somewhere while the rescue power waits for a freight train to clear the single track ahead and come and fetch you.
If Amtrak can't compete off the NEC, what's the point?
>> ...it's less of a bother spending a few hours in airports, etc, [subsequent drivel deleted] <<
When your IQ hits 100...sell.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Well, JetBlue isn't very old :) And if they keep up their current state of affiairs, I'd say the Empire Corridor west of Albany is toast. Pretty much nobody wants to go up there in an Amfleet when you can go up there in a *new* Airbus with all the creature features you'd need to keep occupied for an hour or so flight.
And I'm sure Mike will pop in here talking about how great Sooperliners and rotting old pullmans are and how Amtrak's ridership would quadruple if that was all they ran, but it ain't so. people are flying up there because it's less of a bother spending a few hours in airports, etc, than it is to spend 1/2 a day on some train.
Speaking as a former professional railroader, an active railfan to some degree and a general supporter of rail travel--as well as a licensed pilot and active traveller between Toronto and New York, my two cents (or more appropriately $79) goes to Jet Blue from JFK to Buffalo. My wife took Amtrak while visiting me up North on several occasions and due to rather typical delays she was often stuck in a sardine can for 14 1/2 hours to travel 500 miles, more or less. Impractical, inefficient and tremendously frustrating. Even if you're on-time, it's still a 12 hour trip. TWELVE HOURS for a journey that takes 7.5 by private automobile, and roughly 4.5 door-to-door from either JFK or LGA--including delays.
We will now drive before taking Amtrak, and we will fly if the price is reasonable.
I've flown Midway before (Buffalo to Raleigh), and they were OK, I suppose...nothing to write home about and flying airplanes as old as I am (DC9s that could have flown to Mars and back several times). Jet Blue gets my dollars every time if they are flying where I want to go.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
If you call Amfleets sardine cans when what are airplanes? Film canisters?
If you call Amfleets sardine cans when what are airplanes? Film canisters?
Cigar tubes with wings, of course < g >!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Don't fly Midway anymore ... they've filed for Chapter 11 ....
--Mark
Don't fly Midway anymore ... they've filed for Chapter 11 ....
Still operating, although with a reduced route structure. If they do end up failing completely, no doubt another operator will pick up the equipment and routes. Airlines may be a high-risk type of business, but there always are people willing to take the risk and start new ones.
Amtrak can't compete because its hands are tied behind its back while the referee hands the other guy lead gloves...
[JetBlue]is starting to fly upstate, which could effectively kill the Empire Corridior past Albany.
"Starting"? I thought JetBlue got much of its initial route network serving upstate NY airports.
JetBlue had to agree to serve Upstate destinations in return for getting landing rights at Kennedy Airport. Air fares to and from most Upstate cities had been unusually high, hence the need for more service.
JetBlue has become quite profitable in not much over a year. As the Upstate services form a significant chunk of its route network, presumably it's making money on the services despite its very reasonable fares. And, having taken it to Buffalo a year ago, I'd have to say that JetBlue is a really nice airline, with its new fleet and seatback televisions. Heck, it's almost as nice as Southwest!
As the Upstate services form a significant chunk of its route network, presumably it's making money on the services despite its very reasonable fares
I was speaking with a friend of mine who just retired as a pilot with Err Canada in Toronto. I was told on the commuter runs between Montreal and Toronto, using the oversized lawn darts Airbus A319, if they get ONE business-class passenger the fuel for the trip is paid for. One more and the crew's wages (air and ground-side related costs) are paid for. A 319 can seat arout 100, and many of the flights are full. Methinks there's plenty of profit in short-hauls, especially if there are business-class travellers on each flight. I suspect JetBlue makes up for the lack of biz-class in sheer volume.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
They have what is called, "Frequent Flyers" and international flights, also domestic flights for people who don't like long-distance train trips or don't have enough time to do so.
AMTRAK traveling across the country was primarily meant for leisure in TIME traveling. So if you have around 6 days to spare, you can take the time to travel from New York to LA via Chicago and that total takes 3 nights.
Midway has been the most minor airline that I have referred to when buying airplane tickets. Other major airlines like Continental, United Airlines, American Airlines, are still in good business.
The thing is, AMTRAK only serves "domestically", or in the consecutive UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, while AIRLINES have a LOT MORE REVENUE MONEY ROLLING IN FROM ALL TYPES OF INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, which make a BIG difference.
Try a ticket from New York (or Newark) to China, France, Spain, Portugal, Hawaii, and the Bahamas. If only ONE person purchased only ONE ticket, that would be $600- $1,000 right there, and think of how many people travel INTERNATIONALLY, that makes a BIG difference.
Well, thanks for taking AMTRAK's side in travel. I know AMTRAK has turned a fortunate milestone, rolling in more revenue and passenger service especially with the Acela Express trains, which will soon displace the Metroliner : (.
But on the other hand I think Metroliner SHOULD retire because it's been in service for around 30 years, and the Acela Regionals will replace the old beasts. Metroliners have even been in service long ago with MU's !!!!!!
Railfan Pete.
The thing is, AMTRAK only serves "domestically", or in the consecutive UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, while AIRLINES have a LOT MORE REVENUE MONEY ROLLING IN FROM ALL TYPES OF INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, which make a BIG difference.
Try a ticket from New York (or Newark) to China, France, Spain, Portugal, Hawaii, and the Bahamas. If only ONE person purchased only ONE ticket, that would be $600- $1,000 right there, and think of how many people travel INTERNATIONALLY, that makes a BIG difference.
Uh...when did Canada become part of the US? And on a similar note, when did the US cede sovreignty over Hawaii?
I know AMTRAK has turned a fortunate milestone....
I'm not even going to touch this.
Check your facts!
Seth
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD SETH!
YOU TAKE THINGS TOO LITERALLY. PLEASE BE LOGICAL WHEN MAKING YOUR POST! I never said Canada is part of the U.S. and I did NOT have a problem with U.S. sovereignty over Hawaii.
For the second part, if someone is logical enough, would know that that was meant for purchasing an AIRPLANE ticket, NOT a train ticket.
AMTRAK HAS turned a fortunate milestone, with the intro. of the Acela Express trains. Unfortunately, AMTRAK is not making out so well, but it's not a BIG BIG deal. It's NOT the end of the world YET SETH.
Railfan Pete.
Amtrak runs trains to Canada, right? So, Amtrak is not, as you said, a solely domestic service. As for Hawaii, that was mostly nitpicking on my part, but you did say that it was an international flight.
Seth
Well airlines also fly to New Mexico and that's international.
It's out of this world if you run into one of those little green spacemen which frequent NV and NM. :-)
Do UFO lines and US airlines have a code-sharing arrangement?
Weren't those codes an anti-trust violation?
There's a NEW Mexico?
What's the deal with New Mexico?
It's not new, and it's not Mexico.
On an unrelated note, did anyone watch the John Stossel episode this past Saturday? Called John Stossel goes to Washington? He mentioned how the Air Traffic Control uses vacuum tubes. Makes mannual block signalling look like state of the art.
He mentioned how the Air Traffic Control uses vacuum tubes.
I'm running from memory here, but as I recall the old vacuum tube computers that once powered the air traffic control network were retired in the 1970s. The software that originally ran on them, and which ran essentially unmodified on the IBM System 370 machines that replaced them, dated to 1959. The monster displays had their tubes replaced with solid-state components around 1980, although the big CRTs themselves were still in use until about 1995. In 1995 or 1996 the entire system was upgraded to modern hardware technology, with significantly upgraded software... they ran the two systems in parallel at a couple of key sites for about eighteen months until they were debugged. I believe that all sites were upgraded by the end of 1998.
The system still isn't nearly as state-of-the-art as it could be, but when you consider what a lot of people consider to be state-of-the-art... we can't afford for our air traffic control systems to experience the "blue screen of death" so common to Microsoft.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think that a lot of the Radar systems can still use gas(?) state electronics.
Most radar systems have at least a few tubes in them because tubes are the only devices capeable of handing the currents / voltages / power levels involved. A magnetron is really nothing more than a fancy rectifier tube. As for computers, I think there are, in fact, a few tube ones at the FAA still. The trouble isn't getting tubes, it's finding people who can fix those things. Anyway, they're always on, and most small signal tubes are good for a damm long time if you never power them down. Powering down is bad not only because of heater issues but also because it leads to cathode stripping and grid emissions. That's why old Tek scopes have a time delay in them.
And i wouldn't call tubes unstable or finicky either. My Tek 545A can be turned on, warmed up, set to whatever settings, turned off, and you can come back 5 days later, flip the switch and it'll come up right as you left it. I'm not kidding, it's that good.
The trick, solid state, IC, or tube, is to have a good design that optimises the advantages and minimizes the disadvantages.
BTW, old tube stuff is amazingly robust. It can withstand surges and static and EMF that would blow up modern solid state electronics. I've seen applications* where you've got a pair of 6L6s being pushed so hard the plates are turning yellow/orange, and they're still working. I've seen arcovers, stuff pushed WAY beyond it's design ratings, etc, and they'll still work.
*Seeburg jukeboxes from the late 50's used an inverter (not PWM!) to drive the mechanism motor, to allow speed switching between 7" 33 1/3 and 45 rpm records. Basically the distant forerunner of today's AC traction systems! And they work too. It's a sight to see them, but amazingly, they work. A 5U4 to create 500V DC at around 200 ma, a few 12 something 7s to create the variable frequency, and 2 6L6s in push pull to drive the motor.
12AX7's ... used to fix those pigs. :)
Philip, you make some great points there.
Unfortunately, tube-based computers are too slow to handle the kind of data processing we need them to perform for the FAA in the 21rst Century. Maintenance is certainly an issue, as you point out, but processing speed is too-and tubes don't cut it there. And, of course, in this day and age, power consumption is an issue. An S/390 mainframe uses a tiny fraction of the power required by the 701 to perform the same tasks (it will, of course, perform tasks the 701 could never perform).
All current FAA air traffic computer systems are in IC-based mainframes now.
What's interesting is that foreign nations buy more advanced air traffic control systems from us than we use. ATC at Kimpo International Airport in Seoul, South Korea is state-of-the-art, designed and built by Raytheon. Of course, how many ATC centers are there in South Korea compared to the US? Our procurement challenges are huge.
I think at most AMTRAk has 1 or 2 trains to Montreal, I would hardly call that international service. And I'm not even sure if that service is still running.
I think at most AMTRAk has 1 or 2 trains to Montreal
Train 69 lv NYP 9:45 AM ar Montreal 7:30 PM
Train 364 lv Chicago 9:25 AM ar Toronto 5:31 PM
I would hardly call that international service.
I would call that international service.
Everybody's different.
Train 69 lv NYP 9:45 AM ar Montreal 7:30 PM
If I'm not mistaken, this train service doesn't even go all into Canada. I believe it stops at St. Albans, VT and there's bus service on into Montreal.
The Toronto-Chicago and Toronto-NYP services are alive and kicking, however.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
There used to be two trains to Montreal, now one stops at St. Albins Vermont.
What a pile of garbage!
Now you have to go through Albany.
Although they steam a good ham.
But people frequently scam those hams.
Pigs, SHAME ON YOU if you eat ham, isn't that cannabalism?!
It's a Simpsons reference.
I most certainly don't eat ham or any pork. Not a religous issue, just an affinity for pigs. My ex-wife had a pet pot-bellied pig (and no jokes about her and a pig, we had our differences, but one thing I doubt anyone would call her is a pig) and I found the pig to be as intelligent as any dog I ever met. In fact she was a wonderful pet. As I got to know the pig better, I had to question how I could eat pigs.
Yes, I do still eat beef, I'm not proud of it but I do. I wish could become a vegitarian but as of yet I have not done so.
So this pig does not practice cannabalism!
Oink Oink!!
Train 69 lv NYP 9:45 AM ar Montreal 7:30 PM
Train 56 lv NYP 11:30 AM ar St Albans 9:10 PM bus ar Montreal 10:55 PM
The thing is, AMTRAK only serves "domestically", or in the consecutive UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, while AIRLINES have a LOT MORE REVENUE MONEY ROLLING IN FROM ALL TYPES OF INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, which make a BIG difference.
The most consistently profitable airline, Southwest, has no international routes.
It isn't surprising that in recent years quite a number of airlines have gone belly up thanks to the cutthroat competition which results in how low can they make their fares, how bad the quality of the food that you get on your flight if you even get anything to eat. Whether or not your plane leaves on time even in good weather. Long lines at the ticket counters at times. Restrictions impossible to comprehend. Having to stop at a major hub on the way to your destination. Uncomfortable planes with poor air circulation (especially the Boeing 757). It often isn't pleasant to fly anymore despite what the airlines advertise.
I wish that in many ways they would get some of these planes out of the air and start running more trains to major cities since they wouldn't require the construction of new airports which are extremely expensive and would make the skies safer for those that need to fly. Most of the infrastructure for better rail service is already in place though in a good many case it would need upgrading and some additional rail infrastructure would be needed I think that it would be more economical to improve our existing rail infrasructure rather than spending money to make the skies even more crowded with passenger airliners. In many cases it would be more economical to run a train between two cities that are up to 500 miles or so apart filled with passengers than to fly a passenger airliner the same distance. Another advantage that a passenger railroad train has that you can often pick them up in a downtown area of a city rather than to drive either towards the outskirts of the city or even some distance outside of the city the airport serves. Another advantage is that trains will often run in bad weather which often leaves airplanes grounded.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
You forget the political aspects to all of this. The airline lobby down in Washington is pretty strong. And most airline travelers are too politically affluent to be riding on trains all over the country, just to get to work. Thus, their representatives have to follow suit, or else they will be facing the term limits that they vehemently oppose.
In addition, the oil industry fits into all of this. Diesel - electric engines don't expend as much fuel as a typical jumbo jet does. Now, take Amtrak's enitre diesel - electric fleet, along with it's ability to string AC wires up all across the nation like it does in the Mid-Atlantic, and compare that with the airlines ever present need for expensive jet fuel. Hands - down, American, Delta, etc., will always win over Amtrak.
Take these two factors into consideration, and you will easily see one of the many reasos why Amtrak is a sitting duck.
I'll be posting my results soon.
I will say this. TA workers seem very much afraid for their job these days. Morale is not as high as I thought, but it's still a good job they tell me. They see the look on the faces of those coming from office jobs, and realize it could be worse.
Results of what?
Which TA workers should take cars instead of trains? Why would you make such a statement?
When you make a posting like this you should't just plop someting in out of the blue.
IMHO - the planners and executives in the TA/MTA should be forced to ride public transportation at all times. Then maybe they will make some intelligent decisions.
Hourly workers are forbidden to walk or use their cars. If they are caught using other than public transit they can lose their jobs.
I respect you sub-buff as you have supplied a lot of info on SubTalk, but this time you're quite off.
Hourly workers can take any mode of public transportation that they want. What the TA says is that they hold you responsible if you're LATE FOR WORK and the cause was not due to transit delays on the part of the NYCTA. Or through the performance of your duties, you were supposed to ride public transit (i.e. S/A lunch relief travelling to another booth at a different station), failed to do so, and something happened.
I'll chalk it up to the remains of the heat wave.
Also when being deadheaded from one work location to another the rule is [or was] to ride only the TA's facilities. I'm sure legal matters are the reason as the system shouldn't be responsible for incidents involving private vehicles on highways while an employee is on duty.
I thought it is just "ON DUTY".
Rule 11: Certain Acts of Employees Prohibited
(Y) When on duty employees must not use any means of transportation other than those provided by the New York City Transit System, unless specifically authorized.
Thanks for the defense, Lou!
Now I have a specific reference. Thanks again!
I doubt that would cause you to lose your job with the TA. Everyone I know drives to the yard they are working in.
Technically, when an employee uses their private transportation while on duty, they are considered AWOL. BTW in the old rule book it's rule 11Z
Technically, when an employee uses their private transportation while on duty, they are considered AWOL. BTW in the old rule book it's rule 11Z
As I read the rule, in an earlier posting, the restrictions apply to the use of transportation while on duty. I don't see any restriction on how employees get to work.
There is no such rule. I seriously doubt that you could legislate how employees travel on their own time. About the only thing the TA could do is restrict on-property parking. That would force many out of their cars - fast.
This rule is fairly common in private industry. It is a liability and insurance question. They were very strict at one place I worked. I could not use my car to drive to a local airport for a business trip. A car rental or limousine pickup had to be arranged.
It is only when ON DUTY. Sorry if my wording was misleading.
For my own reasons, mainly being cheaper and no frustration with parking where you didn't report to a yard...I rode public transit. But then there were locations where the inconvenient transit access required driving, especially when one worked X List or Vacation Relief as I did and some jobs one chose on VR were hard to get to by train or bus.
Most of the facilities where TA personnel work are not conveniently located to mass transit. They are at the end of a line, and a good transit ride for anyone who happens to live on that line, but a bad transit ride for anyone else.
The main offices are in central locations, and those who work in them can certainly take the train. I certainly do, and so do most people I work with.
Not only that but many train crews start or finish at odd hours where train service is 20 minutes apart (GO's causes more problems) and bus service is either non existent or running every 60 minutes.
they actually have put out several bulletins in Stations that advise of the "official Policy". RTO might be different. In class they told us of cases where someone drove, got into an accident(not their fault)and lost their job.This actually happened to someone in my calss.
The official reason given by Transit and verified by TWU is "AWOL"--you would be off Transit property while you are on their time supposedly working. Even at lunch, in theory, if you go off the system and get hurt you do not get comp.
In stations, we are also told that if we get hurt at a Transit Station and we are not there yet (ie- before duty hours) we are not covered.
That's only when we are changing work locations after signing on. They can't stop me from driving to work.
this is r142man and will be a member of my website
join please respond if your interested asint managers postions are open remember that it is a non profit organization pleasejoin and the webpage is communities.msn.com/transitcities
sorry thats website in the subject
R142man has some of Trevor Logan, Kevin Barsky, and Gary Chatterton pics up without Credit.
A DEFINITE NO NO!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Now you've piqued my curiosity ... but not enough to visit any MSN site. I was born here, don't need a passport. :)
I agree.
yes
I can think of the perfect phone number
for that website....
I was walk though 207yard today, and I saw about 6 of the GE R32's and 4 A/C R38's, so I asked someone what going on with them. He told me that the R32's were getting a new type of A/C units. These run on A/C power. The R38's are getting a new type of A/C power plant, with a different type of controller. I did not get into more detaly with him because I had to get to work are the station.
Robert
Better to upgrade the A/C rather than scrapping otherwise perfectly good subway cars.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
The upgrade is to try out new systems to see how the rest of the fleet will be upgraded within the next few years.
Robert
are they eyeing upgrading the cars instead of sending them to scrap in the next few years?
The GE R32's (as opposed to R32GE) scrapping isn't even being contemplated. The R38 scrapping won't be until around 2006.
"The R38's are getting a new type of A/C power plant, with a different type of controller."
So it seems the first AC propulsion system on the R-38s didn't fare too well. Imagine if the second one makes the cars sound like the R-142As ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I did a little checking. Replacement of the GE R-32s' faulty air conditioning systems is in the 2001 budget. It was supposed to have been done before the Manhattan Bridge "flip", but obviously it's running late.
David
Working overnight and heard about a collision/derailment at ENYD. Any news or specifics? Thanks in advance.
A 4 car train made an unauthorized move off of 8 track and hit a train on 10 track where the two meet and derailed. Virtually no damage except to the career of one train operator.
Wasn't me. They wouldn't let me touch anything when I worked there Mon. (first question when reporting: "Probational?")
No, I saw the T/Os name on the report. It didn't begin with a B.
You're going to shoot to the top of the seniority list because of the number of T/Os that will be dismissed from all the derailments.
LOL
Michael
ANOTHER DERAILMENT AT ENYD?!?!?
Geez. They had a derailment two Tuesdays ago and now this. What tour did this happen on? I'm trying to figure out who was the culprit as I know everyone very well there.
It happened at about 22:30. It wasn't one of the regular people, it was an extrea board T/O who was told to make the move.
what is ENYD??
East New York Yard,
Peace,
ANDEE
I was at 207yard today and saw some Red Birds with a stickers on them saying, "Delawar Department of Nateral Resources and Envenemental Controll." I asked someone if these trains were going to be the ones being sunk, he said yes. He told me that they will be living sometime withing the week. It could be as soon as Thusday. I got all the car that are to 207yard hear thay are. (No order)
7902-03,7870-01,8054-55,9544-45,7750-51,7752-53,8712-13,7836-37
9486-87,9075No Mate,9508-09,7834-35,7754-55,8610-11,7758-59,
8715No Mate
So say good buy to these cars, There going to be so fishes home very soon.
Robert
But Delaware doesn't exist. See http://www.mlc.nu/delaware/
Have you ever heard of spell check? LOL
Why are the birds being sent to the bottom instead of going to the scrap yard. Is new service planned?
Michael
Asbestos.
OK. Good-bye, Redbirds, good-bye, Redbirds. Good-bye, Redbirds, we're going to sink you now.
Would anybody know if they are going to be placed into the ocean one-by-one or all at the same time?
I don't know, although if you were to sink them all at once, it could set up a tsunami.:-)
Yeah, but it would only take out Seacliff ... maybe wet the Ocean Ave in Brielle TWP ... (what the HELL is a "twip" anyway? and no, I don't want to hear "township" pronouncements, make it up! Heh)
I mean, most of us seem to be here for the entertainment. And when it comes to entertainment, seeing the 'birds' meet their fate never completing the "South Ferry loop" just warms the cockles of this former B2'er ... (grin)
Dang! Not "Seacliff" ... that's Lung Guyland if I recall ... that damnable place on the Jersey shore that's ALWAYS on channel 9 every time it rains ... Sea BRIGHT? Sea something or other, but not Sea-caucus ... HULLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOO! (glad he's off the air).
Sea Girt?
A “twip” is 1/240 inch, and is the unit of layout measurement used by Microsoft in Visual Basic etc.
Can anyone tell me where we can park a car for all day in Coney Island or near Coney Island where it can be safe? Thanks Bob and Fred
YEs but you have to do it early morning, You can park at the new Beach/Stadium parking lots at West 20th street and West 22nd st and surf ave access also. You can also park in any of the west side streets south of surf avenue for safe parking, Hopefully I will see you there on Sunday with my friend playland. Gotta see what these two fanatics look like.
Sorry it will be Thursday, and we will not get there until around noon
still, you'll probably get a spot, no actually you will definately get a free spot there, sonce its a weekday, sorry when you are on summer vacation weekends loose their meaning, but try for those parking lots.
Where is the lot?
The parking lot at the Aquarium opens at around 8:00am (I think; call and check), but charges quite a bit. I usually park on Neptune right under the structure by the Signal Quarters - the only thing that has ever bothered it has been pigeons. When are you guys coming?
Thursday around noon is when we should get there. We will stop at Nathans, then walk to the Cyclone, then over to Nathans for lunch, then the boardwalk to get some t shirts. We both want Cyclone T or Caps, then rail fan for a while
The $64,000 question: which line will you ride first?
You trying to start a fight Steve? Well, my money's on the Culver ;)
Depends where we park and where we are going. I will give in to Fred, his choice
Last time he was here Fred was on the SeaBeach twice and the Culver once. Perhaps you should take the West End.
We will see
Wait until rush hours ... grab an M train and enjoy the railfan window back to Bay Pkwy, then get a W and go back to Nathan's for dinner ....
--Mark
I've never had a problem parking on West 5th St (Trump Village) or Ocean Pkwy between Brighton Beach Ave and the Belt Pkwy. You might also consider finding a parking spot in Brighton Beach and taking the subway to Coney Island with the Funpass I'm sure you'll get :)
--Mark
From West 25th Street to West 37th Street (Sea Gate), ample parking can be found all day. Park either from Surf Avenue to the Boardwalk, or Surf Avenue toward Neptune Avenue. Preferred is Surf Avenue to the Boardwalk. Caution, some spots are metered, and THAT is enforced!
High police presence deters auto theft, I never had a problem, even with a late model car. Even at dusk, evening and overnight times.
You might try W. 8th Street between Surf and Neptune. It's usually tough to find a spot, but you could get lucky. There's a police station on that block, so theoretically you'll be pretty safe. It's the same block as the aquarium/boardwalk crossover from the Q and F
-Stephen
HA Thats right accross from the DMV, right by the 60 precinct, you'll never find ANYTHING there
Perhaps the "G" trains will STILL be based out of Jamaica. During the hours of "V" operation, maybe the extra "G"'s will be laid up on the former "F" express tracks btwn 4 Ave-Church. (??). And since the "G" will run via Queens Blvd during non-V hours, then those extra "G"'s could just go back to the Jamaica yard. Yeah, that's an idea--just an idea!!.......Tony
It is my belief that G service will be shopped/based/centered/located etc. out of Jamaica Shop, even after the V begins. Of course, this is TBD.
The idea to lay up G's on the unused IND tracks in Brooklyn will be affected by future G.O.'s that are sure to come along. Church Avenue LL has space I believe (by viewing the track diagram) for at least 4, 6 car lash ups of R46 MU's.
I have dreams about G trains terminating at Ditmas Avenue, on the former BMT Culver track, and switching to the center Culver track to reverse northbound. I'm going to stop watching Jacob's Ladder.
I left early, took the 6:55am to Flushing. I got the 7 train, and I ran into a fellow Subtalker! (RIPTAhopetunnel)
We chatted and the 7 train wasn't too crowded, and the A/C was cool for a change. I made the 9:30am ferry, which was not a car boat and was faster. The SIR ride was neat, I took it all the way to the end. Part of the platform at Great Kills is closed, probably due to the train that went into it. We were wrong railed for a good part of the way, I think from around Grasmere to Great Kills.
I got off at Tottenville and walked a few blocks up to the S74 bus stop. It's been a long while since I've been on the S74. Arthur Kill road is amazingly rural, reminds me of some of the back roads in Greenport!
I took it to New Dorp Lane. The Richmondtown area is nice too, reminds me of Old Brookville. I walked down New Dorp lane. It's a nice downtown, centered around the SIR station.
I got the S79 at Hylan to the SI Mall. Later on I took the S59 from the SI mall to Tottenville. Hylan Blvd is very pretty on that stretch. It reminds me alot of Merrick road, but the southern parts are even more rural.
At Tottenville I took the SIR back to St.George. They still have old style telegraph poles with glass insulators along much of the SIR ROW. I doubt they are still used. Also like the ConEd overhead feeder cables adding that railroad feel to the line. All with modern insulators of course, though some poles were kinda old.
Going back we had a car ferry. It felt humid and I saw billowing clouds to the NW. When I took the 7 train back later, the sky to the NW grew quite dark.
While waiting for the 7:58pm N21 to Glen Cove the thunderstorm hit, but nothing terrible, yet.
On the way back on the N21 we got nailed with heavy rains, torrential blinding rains. It started around Bayside and lasted through Great Neck. Visibility was near zero at times. There was lots of lightning and the roads were flooding bad. Fortunately my bus #317 made it through fine and I got home on time despite the severe weather.
I live in SI. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed your time here. It's not such a bad place. On your next trip you should go see the Chinese Scholar's Garden at Snug Harbor, It's beautiful! E-mail me if you want any info about SI or a tour, I'd be happy to meet you after I get out of work.
I created the el structure objects.check out the pics.
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/mynycsubwayobjectspics.msnw
Jorge Q 6AV EXP, you have photos on your website from nycsubway.org. How did you obtain these photo's?
Thanks to all who have commented on my (K) Train plan. I have incorporated some revisions. The Lines along the LIE remain elevated, but the lines via Grand Street, Metropolitan Avenue, and Eliot Avenue are subway. This will allow for more express service, and for a direct connection to the 14th Street Subway, to help bleed off come of the tpi that this route generates.
What is the Rush hour tpi of the Williamsburg Bridge, and of the Canarsie Line. There probably isn't much room for another major line to join these, but then, I am not opposed to the idea of putting another trackway on the Williamsburg Bridge.
Elias
You corrected all of your other errors, but you still refer to College Point Boulevard as Lawrence Street.
Thank You, I will fix this one too.
My map just didn't show it that way, but then I have an old map.
Elias
You mentioned a 1967 map; I think College Point Blvd came two years later.
Think restored Manhattan Bridge the WB gets messed up enough from crossing M trains at Myrtle during rush now they will get fouled up at Marcy waiting for their turn on the bridge.
They are during major work on the WB now, they are not going to want to do another major overhaul for another 20-40 years.
Or is this a fantasy project. No insult intended some here design lines they know will never get built just for fun.
Let us call it a "What If" project.
The parameter was to draw a line that covers under-served areas with least expense and disruption to surface environment, and not increasing the burden to existing routes.
Granted this line does use the 14th Street tunnel, but there is only one service in this tunnel at present, and people here seem to think that tunnels and bridges can support two lines.
Since the Williamsburg Bridge was originaly built as a railrway bridge with only secondary thought to vehicular movements, putting another line across it may be possible. As you have said it may be 20 years before they are willing to do another major overhaul of this crossing, but that seems to fit with the time line envisioned for my projects.
Thanks, Elias
I love it! My only problem is the double letters, but I suppose there's always a way arround those.
:-) Andrew
Well, I think if we add too many more lines, we will run out of single letters. I think it is easier to diferentiate between a K and a KK or a KL than it is between a "Circle Q" and a "Diamond Q".
Rather than burning the letter "Z" on an adjunct of the "J" line, why not call them "J1" and "J2"?
Anyway, we could have a "Dimond K" and a "Circle K" and then maybe an "H" or an "I" for the other service.
Thanks, Elias
That KL line, is rush hours only? From that look of things it should it full time line and if possible make the K one of those lines rush hour expresses peak direction only in Queens/ Brooklyn. Other then that it look like a solid plan. Bring back double letter I noticed. You should also look at letters that are currently not being used.
Good Plan, its good that more plans are coming out, at least in the future there will be a whole new network of subway lines in New York City.
Umm.....could you try your hands a Bronx to Queens direct line that would go to Co-Op City and work with my second avenue subway line plan?
"That KL line, is rush hours only? From that look of things it should it full time line and if possible make the K one of those lines rush hour expresses peak direction only in Queens/ Brooklyn. "
I have given some thought to this, and am open to suggestions. The KL might well be a full time, or at least day time service.
I have rethought the idea of this being an elevated line on Grand Street, Metropolitan Avenue, and Eliot Avenue: The service north of Queens Boulevard is almost a separate service from that in the south, and if these were to be full time express services, I think that four elevated lines on these roads is a little much. Also a connection to the 14th Street Subway calls for an underground connection.
Queens Boulevard and points north are elevated, and with the trackways running along the LIE right of way, little disturbance to residential neighborhoods is foreseen. The Local turnback at Queens Boulevard, and the KL Turnback at Francis Lewis Boulevard take advantage of the space above the interchanges to loop back rather than stopping and reversing ends.
In the vicinity of Fresh Pond Road, this line approaches the LIRR RoW and might have its yard facility built on that RoW.
Thanks for helping, Elias
Since NIMBY whiners and anti-redbird fanatics (the ones who always go on TV complaining about the menace of redbirds) are both very good at complaining, I had an amusing idea.
Instead of dumping redbirds in Delaware, like it seems they'll be doing according to this message, wouldn't it be more fun to dump them within the city? Perhaps fill up the East River with them and turn it into an artificial dam. Or even better, start randomly placing them in backyards and parks? If there's some place to put them that would aggrivate the NIMBYs even more, please suggest. I would've loved to watch NIMBYs and anti-redbirders fight it out over what to do with the birds, but since that probably won't happen, I guess I'll just have to dream.
to clarify, I don't want to screw up the city in my scenario, just watch these people complain against each other.
perhaps we can use them to block off the airports and cut down on the tourist plague... i mean population... *ahem*
only half sarcastic;
joe
I want redbirds city wide, MORE MURAL SPACE FOR ME
Hate Tourists.
they abuse subway maps bynot folding them up correctly.
ppl reading their maps upside down.
ppl using them as toilet paper
etc.
and those god awful MultiCulti multilanguage Subway maps suck..I approve the 3 abuses of subway maps for these lil' buggers.
Why in the world would a tourist use a subway map as toilet paper? They'd have to be pretty screwed up people to do that.
There's always newspaper.....
They'd have to be pretty screwed up people to do that.
Well duh...
Dan
I'd like to take a few and install third rail on a second track on the LIRR ROW between Bay Ridge and at least Parkville Junction.....
I don't have any real feelings one way or the other regarding the Redbirds. However if they are going out of service and they need a place to put them, I suggest they use them as Highway dividers on the LIE or Belt Pkwy as a tribute to Robert Moses.
Burn the slow orders
Curt
i just always wanted to know something about Long island Railroad. Where do Engineers hang out between trips when they reach a city zone like NY or Flatbush?
I think the better question is where they hang out when they get to someplace remote with jack squat to do, not what they can do when they get into a city.
They could always bring a book.
I always say that LIRR has alot of pride in themselves. Not because its the nations largest commuter railroad and so on. Its because Every Engineer i ask always says work for the Railroad and not the Subway. Even Babylon737 tells me when he got called for LIRR, he said forget the subway. Not to mention all the Engineers i know say come to the Railroad. I always ask this. Besides money, whats good about it?
1st answer. NOT being in a tunnel all day
2nd answer. Better people treat you better
3rd answer. We have a secret. when you come to the railroad and see me u will be glad u got this job!
I WONDER WHAT THE SECRET IS.............
>>>>>>>1st answer. NOT being in a tunnel all day
Well, we have the J and 7 lines. And the M on the weekends stays outside all weekend.
>>>>>>>2nd answer. Better people treat you better
We have supervision in the TA that'll treat you like a human being too. It all depends on the line you pick.
Cmon, if you mess up in the LIRR, they'll screw you without grease over there too.
>>>>>>>>>3rd answer. We have a secret. when you come to the railroad and see me u will be glad u got this job!
Looks like I won't find that out.
I'll tell you the TA secret.
Minimum retirement age:
LIRR-62
NYCTA-55
(There are no responses to this message.)
And I doubt there will be.
>>>>>(There are no responses to this message.)
>>>>>And I doubt there will be.
Well, that was true until YOU responded.
Gotcha.
It was just my way of saying, "boy, you put that guy in his place".
Awww, that was so sweet of you.
>>SMOOCH<<
Just to be contrary, here's a response.
Dan
6641-45 (delivered sometime in the last 30 days) and 6651-55 are out on the road and testing at this late hour.
In case this hasn't been mentioned, 6516-20 and 6526-30 are in passenger service right now.
-Stef
While at 72St, I saw the test train pass by. On a related topic, there was a burnt rubber smell on every R142 that stopped in the 72St station. IDK.......
when will they be in service
As soon as they're done testing these cars. It could be in a week? I'm uncertain.
-Stef
okay
6631-35 have entered service coupled to 6416-20.
-Stef
what about 6411-6415
I don't know. Cars are coupled at random, and in no particular order.
-Stef
What is the current situation regarding T/OP recruitment?
I currently work on the London Underground as a T/op and I am thinking about moving back to NY in the near future. I have all the necessary green card documentation, and wondered who I would approach to apply for the position, if indeed the Subway is even recruiting.
I've sent you an e-mail regarding this.
I just got the word from Kim Alston of NJT that there will be "free"
rides on the Hudson-Bergen Line. A bus will take us over to the transit line, where we will catch the HBLR cars. I'll be there. it
was fun last year, and should be better this year because of the new stations on the line.
It'll be a busy day with the Festival, the NYD ERA 207th St shop tour and the Fall Trolley Extravaganza all on the same day .....
--Mark
It'll be a busy day with the Festival, the NYD ERA 207th St shop tour and the Fall Trolley Extravaganza all on the same day .....
...and the 51-year old Reading FP7's 902 and 903 pulling a train of SEPTA Bombardier coaches from 30th Street and Paoli to Strasburg.
I know you will be at your table at the Trolley Show. Sorry, I'll miss you this time. I still enjoy the tapes I bought from you.
Regards,
Chuck Greene
Thanks Chuck ... there's always mail order :)
I really had to think twice before deciding to go this year ... the 207th St shop tour was really enticing especially with the Redbirds being readied for their new resting place.
When it rains, it pours I guess!
--Mark
Heh, too many things happening on the same day! Thanks for reminding me about mail order.
Chuck Greene
I wish it wasn't on Saturday!!!!! :-( :-( :-(
According to a list of MTA tests for 2002, it said there is a Test for Custodian Engineer. What is that???
sounds like a fancy name for a Janitor.
In the school district all head custodians must posess a license as a stationary engineer, that is to run a high pressure boiler plant. I suspect that this will be the same for the TA, probably left over from the days when the TA generated its own electricity. Some of the yards or other facilities may still have high pressure steam plants for some purpose or other.
Here at our Abbey in North Dakota, we used to gentate electricity (1900s - 1920s) for the city of Richardton (DC current), which was replaced when MDU brought its lines here. We continued to generate our own power into the 1950s, and our boiler plant required a licenesd stationary engineer.
Today we limit our boilers to 10psi an may run them without such an engineer, and as coal fired plants the are just under the power levels that would require extensive environmental controls.
Check around the MTA property, and see if you can discover any facility that may require high pressure steam boilers for any reason.
Elias
In NYC you do not need a high preasure license to be Custoidan. Only a few schools have high preasure (Brooklyn Tech, Curtis H.S.) and there are C/E there.
LIRR is trying to save money by having motormen also serve as car cleaners?
are Metro North Engineers required to know NORAC rules? I can't think of any MNRR lines with NORAC or any position lights
Metro-North isn't part of NORAC (Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Committee.) Hudson, Harlem, and New Haven trains don't operate on Amtrak nor former Contrail trackage, therefore engineers (and conductors) don't have to know NORAC.
However, Amtrak Zones 2 and 3 engineers (New York to Boston, and New York to Albany must know Metro North rules because part of the trip is on Metro North.
Michael
I've listen to the MN dispatcher for Hudson Line, very intresting how they handle Amtrak (Zone 3) trains. They are very polite to each other on the radio.
I was watching a show about police chases on TLC (as an itellectual I watch TLC's car chase show instead of FOX's) and the show pointed out that the Los Angeles area has about 1000 car chases per year, much more than anywhere else. An expert interviewed said that this sort of thing happens much less often on the east coast. I've also heard before that most of these chases involve drivers fleeing routine traffic stops rather than serious crimes. It then was reasonable to me that there are fewer car chass in the east because there is better public transportation there, and its used by more people.
So my question is, is it reasonable to argue that a better transit system in Los Angeles could reduce the amount of dangerous police pursuits in the area? If so, would it also be reasonable tha tthe Los Angeles Police Department, if persuaded of this, could be a voice for better transit in the area? I'm guessing they would prefer not to endanger their officers (and the public) with car chases any more than necessary.
I've never been to Los Angeles, so I'm just speculating on stuff that I've heard and read, but I'd be curious to hear what others think.
Mark
There are fewer high speed police chases in my part of the East (Philly/South Jersey) because of public outcry when innocent bystanders are killed by high speed police chases.
A lot of attempted car stops are for traffic violations. As to the chases themselves, I don't see any connection to mass transit. I think it's more an attitude problem with drivers. It's stupid, really, when you consider that after taking down your plate number, the officers will grab you at home even if you get away from them in the chase. But people are stupid. When asked "Why did you run?" many don't have a good answer.
Of course, a certain percentage are afraid their outstanding warrants will be discovered through a computer check. Also, LA is a major destination for illegal aliens, and those drivers will run because they are afraid that LAPD will fork them over to the Border Patrol. It's actually not standard practice for local officers to do so; however if the driver has no valid license or insurance, the car (and his livelihood) goes bye-bye.
I guess my point was that more transit means fewer people driving, then there would be fewer traffic violations which could lead to pursuits. Also, if drivers are afraid of losing their licenses and their ride to work, this would be less of a concern if good transit were available.
Mark
you have to know the big nasty plan that was done not just to los angeles but all across country ! hell not everyone can drive thier own
personal vehicle !! not to mention where do you park without paying both ARMS & both legs !! & the G.D @#%^Y^& METER MAIDS !!!
& If you would explore the history of the PE system & the laRy system & the pcc trolley system we once had here you would see
what once was & should be ! ( like the KEY SYSTEM of san francisco ) a good place to start is the website
DAVES ELECTRIC RAILROADS { http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html } It is also listed on this website under
"" other railroad & rail transit sites "" etc...
HEHEHEHE.....lol......hehehe....lol....lol@lol
If you would explore the history of the PE system & the laRy system & the pcc trolley system we once had here you would see
what once was & should be ! ( like the KEY SYSTEM of san francisco ) a good place to start is the website
DAVES ELECTRIC RAILROADS { http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html } It is also listed on this website under
"" other railroad & rail transit sites "" etc...
And the Dodgers and Giants once played in NYC.
he he he@LOL....he heheee...LOL @ Heehehe!!!!@lol
???
Too funny!
--Mark
I can hear Steve Allen's high-pitched laugh right about now.
So I took your advice, and good advice it was!
From the afore mentioned site i was able to find, ingest and otherwise romance a fine pictorial display of my beloved "LACAKAWANA &
WYOMING VALLEY , better known to the locals as the Laural Line. The Mountain Laural is the Pennsylvania State Flower.
Sweet memories of my distant childhood. Thanks Salaamallah, thank you very much!
avid
The mission of the Los Angeles Police Department is to enforce the law, and that's more than a full-time job. The LAPD does not exist to lobby for (or against) public transit. That function should reside with the Mayor's office.
I was recently in Atlanta, and riding MARTA north from the airport, I saw a line branching off to the left, heading over a highway and disappearing among the trees. Does anyone know what this line is, where it goes, or what it's for?
Mark
THIS
might help you.
Peace,
ANDEE
I too, like SUBWAYSURF, was thinking you were describing a provision, however you were talking about the single track that diverges right after departing Airport. That track is a yard lead to the South Yard, there are also two more lead tracks at College Park. check out the Track map to see it. It doesn't really disapear into a forest, the trees are just a buffer between the highway and yard. You can see from the train off in the distance the control tower from the yard, with "MARTA" written really big.
To everybody on "SubTalk". I realize that this isn't going to be a particularly pleasant posting and I hate to mention this. I was born with a minor cleft palate (submucous cleft palate) and I do have some problems resulting from this condition. In my case the hard (bony) palate failed to merge providing an unstable platform for my soft palate which hangs down too low. When I was a young boy my speech was quite nasal and I was a target for bullies. This was in addition to a few other problems I had as a child. As I got older my nasal sounding speech improved and by the time I was almost 18 my speech finally sounded almost normal. Unfortunately I still sound a little funny when I talk and many people have picked up on this though I'm treated much better as an adult than I was as a child. I also hate to say that I'm occasionally in discomfort which results from having my minor cleft palate. The last few days have been worse than usual for me thanks to the extreme heat that occurred in the New York area last week which is where I live. When we had the 103 degree day last Thursday August 9th 2001 I had some heat cramps anyway and I'm still feeling the effects of it to some extent in my hard palate which at the moment I'm writing this feels a little uncomfortable though not unbearable.
What makes it worse for me is the fact that I had a classmate in high school who had a fully cleft palate together with a harelip and his case was so severe that even after 4 or 5 operations they were NEVER able to repair his palate properly and is still suffering to this day from the effect of his condition. I saw him on Monday July 30th 2001 and it was not a very pretty sight. His tongue quivers and at least part or all of his body quivers at times which I think are the reprecussions of having such a severely cleft palate. I spoke to someone who was a doctor yesterday about this person and he said there is the possibility that this person could be having health problems resulting from his cleft palate and the fact that they were never able to repair it properly. When I'm going through my little episodes of discomfort from my minor cleft palate sometimes I'm thinking of what my classmate is going through with his severe cleft palate which isn't very pleasant. I have a very strong feeling that he is in constant pain from having a severe cleft palate and might even have health problems at this stage of the game.
Except for my minor cleft palate I'm in very good condition physically but mentally I've been having a rough time. If it wern't bad enough that I lost a classmate which I wasn't really good friends with though I knew him on Saturday April 28th 2001, the big blow came late on Thursday July 5th 2001 when a friend of mine telephoned me to mention that Mike Saltzstein who operated the B&B Carousell had died. Since he meant something to me it was very tough for me emotionally though I've pretty much have gotten over with it. Although my minor cleft palate isn't affecting that badly the knowledge that I had a classmate in school who is still having serious problems resulting from a fully cleft palate that was severe make it hard for me because my minor cleft palate is a constant reminder to me that this person is still suffering badly.
I hope that some of you realize that I'm still in a rough mood to some extent and it isn't going to fade away that easily. I'm trying to do the best I can under the circumstances but it isn't going to be easy for me. Living with my minor cleft palate in it self isn't so terrible but the constant reminder that someone else you know about is suffering from a much worse form of the same condition isn't very pleasant and for some people if they were in the same boat that I'm in right now they might be having an awful nervous breakdown. Thankfully I'm riding out this storm on an even keel but I'm afraid it is going to last a while. If you want to learn more about cleft paltaes go to www.cleftline.org. The type of cleft palate that I have (submucous) is explained on the website at
I apologize for the wretched tone of this post but I feel that after having been on SubTalk since December of 1999 it was finally necessary to tell all of you about my condition. I want to warn everybody now that if there are any derogatory posts about people with cleft palates I will tell the website host about them and they will probably be deleted. If anyone of have any questions about my condition I would be glad to answer them and anyone can E-mail me at either or
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Wow. That's tough. I know what it's like to loose someone you're close with, but not to have a serious condition. I know people who have lived with cancer for periods of their life, but not for years like you and your classmate have. You have my condolences, and I'm sure the rest of the SubTalk community.
>>I want to warn everybody now that if there are any derogatory posts about people with cleft palates I will tell the website host about them and they will probably be deleted<<
I see it, and I'll bust their 'chops for ya ;-)
It hasn't been very easy for me since the first of the two personal losses. Although the first one was painful to some extent but it was tempered by the fact that I wasn't close friends with him. The second loss (which occured in the early morning hours of July 4th) when I got news of it on July 5th was a terrible one since the person meant something to me and what effects his loss had on the people at Coney Island who knew him. They're still suffering at this time and I'm afraid that next year on the 4th of July many people who knew the man are liable to have flashbacks since his death could not have occurred at a worse time. Thankfully I'm just about over the pain of the second loss.
Please keep in mind that my cleft palate is of a minor form (submucous cleft palate which affects the bony palate only) and I'm not in very much pain as a result of it but my speech is slightly nasal as a result of having it and I'm in a little discomfort occasionally. I'm managing with it quite well which I'm pleased to say. Go to www.cleftline.org for more information.
True things were often tough for me but like an old BMT "Standard" subway car I was able to make it through the worst of conditions. It wasn't easy but with some help I was able to pull through.
BTW if you get wind of any derogatory posts about my condition you have my permission to bust their chops.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Jeff, I hope you can join us on the "Field Trip" next Thursday to enjoy a little railfanning with some friends !
Mr t__:^)
If you should come across #1 Brighton Exp Bob and #4 Sea Beach Fred tell them I say hello. I realize that you probably found my post not to be all that pleasant but, as I mentioned before I was born with a minor cleft palate and it has affected me all of my life but, as you can see I have gone through quite a lot but I'm still rolling along. Fortunately I've managed with my condition quite well and I'm probably the better for it. I seem to be as tough as an old BMT "Standard" or IRT "Low V" subway car (Your choice, but I prefer the BMT Standard) so even though I've had it rough I've come through in good shape in spite of what I've been through. Believe me, I think that few people who had the problems I had during my childhood would have come through it all in good condition. I'd admit having some of the problems that I have has made me unique in my own way but I'm quite contented with the way I am physically minor cleft palate and all.
BTW Please treat the "Hippos" (R-68/R-68As) with more respect. It turns out that they aren't as bad as they're made out to be. In my own opinion they're perfectly serviceable subway cars even though they look a little ungainly they don't perform to shabbily.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
[BTW Please treat the "Hippos" (R-68/R-68As) with more respect.]
Nah ... that wouldn't be any fun :-)
[It turns out that they aren't as bad as they're made out to be. In my own opinion they're perfectly serviceable subway cars even though they look a little ungainly they don't perform to shabbily.]
I don't think there's been any question of the "serviceable...ity" since the Dude went to the Bronx ... some of us just don't like them.
They're big and slow and make funny noises ...
Mr t__:^)
There's nothing that a final field shunt step wouldn't cure on those cars.
Comments about the "Hippos" (R-68/R-68A)
"They're big and slow and make funny noises ... "
I would agree with you on 2 points about the "Hippos". They are big and they do make funny noises like I the way I sound funny when I speak due to my minor cleft palate. The "Hippos" aren't as slow as you think. If you manage to get them going in the 60th Street tunnel according to one post they have reached 62 mph so that isn't all that bad.
BTW my minor cleft palate will cause me to make strange noises on rare occasions because the condition caused the muscles in my soft palate not to develop properly. I wish I could figure out what causes the weird noises in the "Hippos" (R-68/R-68As). I think the weird noises are coming through the PA system if I'm not mistaken.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
>>> They're big and slow and make funny noises ... <<<
Now I am going to start taking this personally. That's what said about me too! :-)
Tom
Occasionally due to my minor cleft palate I'll make an unexplained squeak or other strange noise once in a very great while. Otherwise since I'm in great physical condition my vital functions are often so slow when I'm at rest and I can remain very still and very quiet some people might wonder if I'm even concsious. There are a few mysterys about me that will probably never be figured out.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I think that those of us that have met you obviously realized that you had some form of speech impediment. However, that is not what we remember about you. What we do remember is your enthusiasm for all things rail (Including, of course, the Cyclone).
Thankfully in my case I only have a cleft bony palate which is covered over by the skin which kept the impact of the condition minimal. As you obviously saw of me I didn't let my condition get in the way of enjoying things and, even though I've had it rough for most of this summer since the death of Mike Saltzstein who operated the B&B Carosuell in the early morning hours of July 4th (I got word of his passing when a friend telephoned me late on Thursday July 5th 2001) I'm still rolling along with the punches. I didn't have an easy childhood but as an adult I took it all and can still have a lot of enthusiasm for many things including the New York City subway system and Coney Island. With it all, I managed to keep my condition from getting in the way of things and thankfully as a result I can enjoy the good things in life. I cam compare myself to a BMT "Standard" or IRT "Low V" subway car (your choice) that has been through it all but still keep on rolling along.
BTW I'm still trying to obtain the sound file(s) of the "mooing cow" sound of the IRT "Low V" subway cars. When I rode on the 4 car train of IRT "Low Vs" that they ran on the 42nd Street shuttle to celebrate 90 years of subway service on Thursday October 27th 1994 the "mooing cow" sound produce by the traction motors of the old IRT "Low Vs" is something that I'll never forget.
My E-mail addresses are jeffalterman@yahoo.com & alterman@bestweb.net
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
September 29th & 30th our 5466 will be making all those noises in the company of out Hi-V, R-9, BU El car & of course 6688.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. "Mooing cow" ... up here in upstate NY, we truly KNOW what "fresh country scent REALLY is" ... the old motors and gearing were a delight for sure - first time I ever heard "bull and pinion" configuration called that, but then again, yeah, it fits in a sick sense us "hicks" can appreciate. :)
I never associated spur-cut bull and pinion gear sounds with cow sounds. Of course, with the R-1/9s, you got it all: moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses - the works. Once in a while, I'd get a train with harmonious gear sounds - I'd hear two sounds simultaneously about a minor third apart as the train gathered speed. The most beautiful subway sound yet. It was very similar to those fighter plane sounds on WWII footage. Then there was that one particular train of BMT standards which went, "awwwrr-moooooore" as it accelerated.
Never thought I'd see the NYCTA descend into barnyard animals, but yeah, I know what Jeff means ... though living with natural methane generators out where I am, it's a kinda different sound. Not as "grindy" as R9's ... heh. NOW ... for anyone who's ever piloted them (you never heard this in the geese compartment) the scraping noises of the GATES added yet another layer of symphony to them with the bulkhead amplifying the creaks in the cab ...
Heypaul sent me NIFTY audiotape of R9's in action, but inside a locked cab, they were FAR better than what you could catch for audio in the car itself ... you'd hear the compressors, the check valves, the release of door air and the wonderful moans and creaks. And IN the cab was the only place you could REALLY take it all in. When I was a conductor, it was interesting but motor duty REALLY brought it all home. A living, breathing machine that would TALK to you ... let you know what had arthritis, what was happy and what wasn't ... they really DID talk to you ...
Many times while I'm swimming I'll make some of the subway noises involuntarily. Usually it is the air brake noises. On the 2nd day of January of 1998 after laying off from swimming for about three and a half weeks I started once again in an indoor pool which has a tilework pattern reminiscent of an IND subway station. When I began swimming I started to release air repeatedly from my powerful lungs and since the reverberation inside the natatorium was terrific it almost sounded like R-1/9s or any other subway car for that matter releasing their air brakes. There were apparently a few comments about the noise I made there that day when I swam.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Did you go "tch-ssssssss" by any chance?:-)
What is the "tch-ssssssss" sound. If it is from the air brakes I can easily imitate it.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
It's the magnet valve sound and, yes, it is associated with the brakes. You'd hear it once, twice, maybe even three times as a train of R-1/9s or Triplexes would slow to a stop.
*NOT* if you knew how to lap ... I was proud of my one hiss stops. :)
I liked that sound. The more, the merrier.
You'll have to test your skills on 1689 someday.:-)
Heh. I knew *MY* territory, and that meant KNOWING how much to yank for each stop. 1689 in its current territory is a COMPLETE unknown. I'd be as helpless at Branford as a newbie in school car. SERIOUSLY. I've not been there YET, but here is what I *do* know from my motorinstructors playing foamer against my steel door ...
"southbound," Leave terminal, go through unknown interlocking through a number of diverges of all sorts from barndoors to layups ... proceed southbound perhaps SP for a while until an S curve descending. Release brake, coast to trestle, whoops, terminal. Granted, only on what I've heard. Not much of a ride, certainly not Fordham to Tremont southbound, definitely not 103 to 125 northbound.
Curious as hell of course, but it costs the kind fo money only NYC has for a "real" railroad to make an R9 interesting again. No offense to those wonderful folks who have preserved some of my sweeties, but nobody got the CPW dash or the Prospect Park south run. And NOBODY got enough scissors to replicate DeKalb ... some things are best enjoyed for what they were.
As I've said before, for me, it's the smells and the sounds ... ain't no place for an R9 to roam in its native habitat any longer and more's the pity. If I had the cash, I would LOVE to put together a mile or moer of IND structurals and grab some handle time THERE. Anything less than that would still be a thrill of course, but "ain't nothing like the real thing, baby" ... as much as I truly appreciate the museums ... it just CAN'T be the same thing ... that's why I'd be just as contented as geese being in one again ... even as fowl. :)
Nothing can duplicate the CPW express dash. And it's just not the same without the howling R-1/9s and thundering R-10s.
The CPW express dash isn't all that great with the R-44s and it isn't all that fast anymore.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
As I said, it's not the same anymore. We'll leave it at that.
Steve B-8AVEXP
I did get your E-mail with the sounds of the R-1/9s and R-10s. Those sounds are something else. I enjoyed the one with the announcement and then hearing the tchssssss as the doors closed on the train.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
The one with the announcement was done on R-27s. At least that was the claim. Do you have WinZip? If so, I have some zip files I could send along. One of them is of an R-10 taking excess power. You'd get a bang out of it.
I don't have WinZip at this time but, if you can send the file to me unzipped it might work.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I will give it a shot. There are also some R-44 door chime sounds.
Ooooo! Me too! Me too! Heh. Email addy is good ...
Heypaul says he was sitting right above the compressor on the LL tape, and it comes through loud and clear. It's a great tape IMHO.
The R-7/9s did "moo" a whole lot coming through the tight tunnel between Sixth Ave. and Union Square in the 1970s. However, I only smeled oil, not milk, when they arrived.
Heh. The "oily" was actually warm PHENOLIC (an alcohol-based pre-plastic dating back to the 1920's used as insulation) and of course track grease ... once upon a time, curved track had greasepots that would ooze onto the rails to quiet down the "hissing" somewhat since one wheel moved at a greater speed than the wheel on the other side of the axle on curves and SOMETHING had to scrape as the wheel on the inner part of the curve moved faster ... add to that nothing but air brake and well, BLUE smoke and no GM dealer in sight. :)
But yeah, I can see where it sounded like a "moo" ... only proves to me that we need to start us a "subtalk summer camp" for deprived shillum eating short'nin bread to hear what REAL mooers sound like and take in that "fresh country scent" in early August when you manure the fields for next year ... but yeah, never thought of it that way, but sure have yanked on enough teats to know why it almost sounded like that (without the metallica overtones) ... heh.
There is one other thing I wish to mention. Did you get a feeling that any of the people on the April Fools' Day field trip were uncomfortable around me at all for any reason. It wouldn't surprise me because many people particularly children and teenagers who come across an apparently normal looking adult with a noticeable speech impediment can get a mistaken feeling that the person that has the speech impediment is retarded or has some other mental deficiency and they feel uncomfortable around them because they think that the person has serious problems. If I thought that anyone on the field trip might have felt a little uneasy around me it wouldn't surprise me that it was "danilm". Many people his age can feel quite uncomfortable around an adult who has a noticeable speech impediment even though that person is otherwise normal. Please reassure anyone who did feel uncomfortable around me that I'm otherwise normal and they don't have to feel frightened by the fact that I have a speech impediment. What might help is to have an adult explain to someone who is uneasy about being around an otherwise normal adult with a noticeable speech impediment is that they can't help it and don't be afraid to speak to the person who has the speech impediment because they may be willing to explain it to them. If I'm on another fan trip with you in the future I might be helpful to explain to people who do not know me that I have a noticeable speech impediment and I can explain why I have it to reassure those people that I'm otherwise normal.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
If I'm on another fan trip with you in the future I might be helpful to explain to people who do not know me that I have a noticeable speech impediment and I can explain why I have it to reassure those people that I'm otherwise normal.
You shouldn't have to explain anything. If people think there's something weird about you just because of the way you talk, that's their problem.
And most railfans are a little strange in some way, just ask my wife, or my kids.
Mr t__:^)
Thank you for sharing and the web site (www.cleftline.org). Prior to this I had no Idea of this disorder. You live and learn
Luckily in my case the disorder isn't very serious but, I know of a person where I live whp has a much more serious form of the same disorder. Thankfully despite of some of the minor problems that I'm having it never took away my enthusiasm for being a railfan and enjoy life in general. If you have any more questions about my disorder you can also E-mail me at jeffalterman@yahoo.com I'm also going to send you an E-mail explaining my condition in brief.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
From the number of responses, I'd say you have a lot of support here. You've obviously done well in adapting.
I have cerebral palsy - very minor, but I did undergo several surgical procedures to improve arm and leg function. The most significant consequence for me, besides the fact that I couldn't be a surgeon or an airline pilot or join the military, was that, in Los Angeles during my high school and college years, I couldn't get dates.
So I moved back to NY and found my wife!
Regarding your cleft: Was surgery not an option in your case???
In my case only the bony (hard) palate was affected. The cleft which would be quite narrow is covered over by the skin so there is no hole through the roof of the mouth. In a case like mine surgery is rarely needed. The only obvious sign of my condition is a mild speech impediment. The other sign is a lineal depression in the roof of my mouth where my hard palate is located. The condition is merely a nuisance rather than a serious problem. For more information on the type of cleft palate that I have go to http://www.cleftline.org/cpf/submuc.html
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I wanted to tell everyone that I spoke to my classmate yesterday Monday August 20th 2001 who had the nasty cleft palate that couldn't be repaired properly and it turns out that he is O.K. His voice sounded strong though quite nasal due to the cleft palate and the shaking is a result of being too thin. Otherwise he is healthy.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Hey Jeff: What you have is your own personal business and none of ours. It doesn't make any damn difference to me. You're still a great guy. Why such a worry about it anyway? Is it causing you trouble?
No it isn't causing me any trouble thank you. At the same time I wanted to ask you you your trip to New York was. You probably heard about the bat found on the "D" train and now their are postings about cats. What's next? STEVE B-8AVEXP sent me some great sounds of the R-1/9s and R-10s. Now I have some new sounds in my repritore. I hopt to get some of the sounds from the old BMT cars.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Jeff: Our trip to New York was a hoot. Both Bob and I had a blast. Hanging around Coney Island, doing Manhattan, eating in Little Italy, riding up to the NBronx. Well, let's just drop that last one, ok? It was still a hell of a trip. Rode the Cyclone, first car. That really still is the highlight of any trip toNew York.
To #4 Sea Beach Fred:
I'm glad that you had a great time in New York. I'm glad that you got to ride the Cyclone again since it is such a blast. I'm planning to go to Coney Island over the Jewish holidays. BTW, Did anyone get to ride on the B&B Carousell?
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
No the only ride Fred did was on the Cyclone, went to the new stadium, both bought t shirts. Me even though I am a die hard Yankee Fan, I am still a Brooklyn Person, so in honor of the Cyclones. I will pick them as my NY-Penn League Team, and not Staten island.
Good for you Brighton Exp Bob. We need another person in support of Brooklyn.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Did you notice that the building next to Nathan's (across the alleyway, Schwenkert's Walk I think - please correct me if I am wrong with this spelling) has been torn down AND they have turned it into an alfresco dining area for Nathan's, complete with cheezy-looking red and yellow umbrellas. They have also made a 1000% improvement in the rest-room facilities at Nathan's - I don't think they ever had them before, now they do, and they are brand new and relatively shipshape.
wayne
We used the facilities and they are a great improvement. When I was in New York on April 1 for our railfanning expedition BMT Doug pointed those out to me. Bob and I good advantage of it twice when we were in Coney Island. The Cyclone can do that to you.
I also noticed a neat Italian restaurant called Garguilo's. I never knew it existed. Good place to go after a Brooklyn Cyclones baseball game.
Wait a minute. You didn't lose your lunch, did you?:-)
I was on the "Cyclone" with #4 Sea Beach Fred on April Fools' Day and no he didn't lose his lunch. I've been on the "Cyclone" a few times since myself and I'm planning to ride on it again during the Jewish holidays if possible.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I don't have any BMT sound bits; however, the compressors on the BMT standards sounded a lot like that R-1/9 compressor bit. I would also recommend Heypaul's tape of one of the Triplex fantrips last summer. You get it all: moaning bull and pinion gears, magnet valve sounds identical to the R-1/9s, even the Triplex whistle.
In the meantime I'm enjoying the R-1/9 & R-10 sounds immensely. I like the R-1/9 tchs-sssss sound with the compressor cutting in & out. I also like the train in the station when the announcement is made and then you hear the exhalation sound as the doors are closing. I didn't need door chimes on those cars. The tchssssss sound was sufficient. Those old R-1/9a and the R-10s were like living and breathing creatures with all of their sounds. Yesterday while swimming laps in my local pool I started to make the air brake noises like those old subway cars. If I was in the indoor pool where there is good reverberation it would almost sound a little bit like a subway station with the echo of the air brake sounds that I can make while swimming. It seems in some way in my previous life I was an R-1/9 subway car except I have no traction motors or do I? You never know.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Now you see why I was so passionate about them ... and for a short period of my life, actually got to RUN the things. And yes, "living, breathing" was what they were all about ... and they'd TALK to you when you ran them ... they'd tell you when you were pushing too hard or not treating them right ... and woe be to YOU if you didn't listen to them.
Even I have my good days and bad days. Today while I was swimming I moving along with the fury of either the BMT Brighton Express or the BMT Sea Beach Express. It seemed that I was going unusually good today since at one point I was swimming exceptionally fast. Many times when I swim I will sound like an old subway car but if I'm mistreated by the other swimmers at the pool which happens sometimes I won't perform as well.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Remember the golden rule of city living ... joke 'em if they can't take a fook ... remember all those carpet places in midtown that are forever going out of business ... screw 'em ... another one looks just LIKE them will be along in five minutes ... move along, move along, outta my face. You can't live in the city and take it personal.
I moved not because of the nonsense, I just didn't want to do the treadmill at that rate of speed any longer for what I was getting paid and no matter what I did, no matter how hard I worked, the damned city took away every gain I made. Enough. But ignore the morons, they're JUST scenery. :)
It isn't only carpet places that are going out of business all the time. There are many other kinds of stores that are always going out of business. It you don't have what it takes to make it in the city you are finished.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Kinda sounds like being married to one of 'em....;-)
Heh. In some ways, true ... except they gave a better ride. :)
I liked that little "pssssst" that comes from under the transverse seats in the R-1/4/6-[3-2-1]/7/7a/9 cars. It comes from some little valve or petcock down there.
wayne
I probably would have had fun with that "psssst" sound also. STEVE B-8AVEXP has sent me the spur-cut bull and pinion gear noise that the IRT Low-Vs made when they were running and I enjoy it very much. I happened to have ridden on the IRT Low-Vs when they ran them on the 42nd Street shuttle to commemorate 90 years of subway service in New York City on October 27th 1994. When my mother used to live near the Mosholu Parkway station on the IRT Jerome Avenue line during the 1940s and the first half of the 1950s she would sometimes need to take the subway into Manhattan and she remembers the IRT Low-Vs quite well. It is entirely possible that when I rode the 4 car train of IRT Low-Vs when they ran them on the 42nd Street shuttle that I might have ridden in the exact same cars that my mother rode in during her youth. If they run the train of IRT Low-Vs in 2004 I hope to ride them once again since they were a lot of fun and I loved that noise that they made.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
They've got to do something along those lines three years from now. And I will be there no matter what.
It's the load sensing valve. I'm almost positive the BMT standards had something similar. You'd hear an escape of air just after the doors closed.
today I was at 168 on the A/C/!/9- all 4 MVMs at the main booth were out of order all night, The S/A advised that they(the MVMs)will be out for several days.
Let's pretend the booth was gone-- how could you have gotten a MetroCard. You would have ahd to walk to another station.
We need the booths. A lawsuit has been filed and it will be heard Friday AM.
Lawsuit is about public hearings before the service change I beleive. TA says they don't need them where the Joe Public says we do.
There are systems such as BART where you have no choice but to buy a ticket from a machine. Personally I think it stinks. Not only for inconveniences but for security reasons I don't think any station, at least in cities like New York, should be unattended. But that's my humble opinion. True some systems are monitored by TV but I dont consider it a substitute.
Not only for inconveniences but for security reasons I don't think any station, at least in cities like New York, should be unattended. But that's my humble opinion.
What about PATH?
Monday at 145 St/ St Nicholas, the token booth was OUT OF TOKENS and the MetroCard unit in the booth was out of order as well. Everyone had to use the MVMs if they wanted in and didn't already have a token or MetroCard.
How in the world could the token booth be out of tokens??????
Sounds like Revenue slipped up here! I also have to put some question on the S/A and S/S on duty here. They should have called the Field Office and advise of no tokens. The S/S should have transferred tokens in from another booth. I do not know if the S/A did or did not call.
Don't know. Happened to overhear the statement went i went out to get lunch.
or they could empty the turnstiles
Emptying the turnstiles is always done first.
Well, when there won't be any tokens, the booth will always be out of them.
OK, let's pretend the booth was gone. But let's also pretend that someone at the TA has a sliver of grey matter and doesn't panic and close the station because some MVM's aren't working.
It would take what, about 30 minutes before the TA was notified, and how long before they could drive a MetroCard van over to the site. In the interim, passengers without a card in hand could go upstairs to the newsstand or the deli on 168th Street which would likely sell prepackaged cards -- if they don't sell them already. (or are we also pretending that the TA is so clueless that they won't expand the retailer's program at the same time they close the booths).
You've made some good points here on the closing of the booths and the impact on passenger security. While it is my opinion that the long-term savings from eliminating the majority of the station agents would more than pay for better surveillance and emergency technology (which I further believe would greatly improve customer security over the current state), I do concede that those points are at least debatable.
The scenario you raise in this post is a non-issue.
CG
CG
Given what they want to do, there's no way the TA should allow any station to have more than half its MVMs out of service before repairs are done. With the loss of station agents, they will have to increase the number of mobile MVM technicians on the system, and the machines themselves should be as modular as possible, so a problem section can just be popped out and a new one installed (if they made the connections simple enough, I would think the parts that get the most wear could be stored at the stations themselves and installed by the agents when necessary, if they're going to be outside the token booths anyway -- provided of course, this doesn't create a union work violation).
if they made the connections simple enough, I would think the parts that get the most wear could be stored at the stations themselves and installed by the agents when necessary
If they make the connections simple enough, we'll develop a better simpleton :-)
NOTE: This is not a reflection on the station agents who post here... but it IS a reflection on some other ones I've met!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We do not have the keys to the machines. Every time a MVM gets serviced--be it repair or new cards, receipt paper, preventive maintenance,etc. an armed Revenue employee (a C/A or Collecting Agent) is present along with the REM (Revenue Equipment Maintainer.)
I am not opposed to light maintenance (for more pay, of course) but we'd need an armed guard(C/A or PPA[Property Protection Agent]) before the machine would be opened.
I alway did think that we should change the receipt paper and load blank cards.
"I alway did think that we should change the receipt paper and load blank cards."
Yeah but once the machine is opened, an unsavory types will be alerted to the cash inside. That's why the guard is always facing away from the MVM to see to it that the REM safety isn't compromised.
Bill "Newkirk"
In other words, of the five sources of MetroCards in the station, four were out of service. Even if that fifth source were customer-operated rather than S/A-operated, it would still be in service.
Without token booths, obviously MVM reliability becomes a higher priority than it is now, and if there are any brains inside the TA (and I do believe there are), a small portion of the money saved would be used towards rapid repair, especially when multiple MVM's in a single station are out. (As Charles points out, a MetroCard bus or van could be dispatched in the interim.)
Besides, don't most passengers refill their MetroCards before they're dried out entirely? When mine gets down to $4.50 or so I'll go ahead and refill it or buy a new one when I get the chance -- i.e., not when I'm in a rush to get somewhere, not when a train is pulling in, not when there's a line at the MVM. (I will not use the booth even if, by some miracle, there is no line. I do not deal in cash unless I have no alternative. Credit cards are a great deal more convenient and they save me 1% plus 1-2 months interest -- at the high end, usually, since I try to delay non-time-critical purchases until the beginning of a new statement period.) If the MVM's are down at $4.50, I still have three rides to go (and, presumably, at least two different sets of MVM's) before I have to worry.
We need the booths.
If all station agents were like you and Alex, perhaps... but that isn't the case, as you are well aware. I vote for the MVM.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Correction. Alex is a T/O and I am a S/A.
I've been meaning to comment on the booth that ran out of tokens. Not to say Alex isn't credible with his information, but I find it hard to believe any booth could run out of tokens. We have a specific reserve of tokens in the booth. Even then, we can pull our wheels and get back those tokens from the turnstiles and resell. I just don't see how a booth can run out.
A part time booth that gets it's tokens and money from the main full time booth might be an exception, since it doesn't carry its own funds. Again, it just seems unlikely. It's pretty busy in Harlem, so there should always be tokens to go around even when the Computer goes down.
-Stef
Sorry, Stef... I know better than to mix the two of you up! It's too late at night for me to think clearly...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To emphasize what Stef has said:
we have 3 kinds of booths-
1-Full-time which are always open. These have a supply of tokens on hand and get regular deliveries of tokens and blank cards plus pickup of revenue-this may or may not be at the same time.
2- Self Contained- these part-time booths have a safe for funds and tokens/ These also get deliveries and pick-ups.
3- Non-Self Contained- these booths get tokens, cards, etc. from another booth at the station.
I can not go into more detail for security reasons and will not comment on how to tell a self contained booth from one that is not. Suffice to say all part-time booths get an escort- many also have transit police in addition to a transit employee as an escort. Here again, I will not go into further detail.
I know people were talking a few weeks back about the Stop signs at 34th Street. At 42nd on the express side there was sign saying THINK. Just thought that was kind of funny.
I bet some people saw the sign, followed the instruction, and then missed their train. LOL
Michael
Didn't you hear? IBM is mergeing their high-speed bus operations with the Transit Authority.
-Hank :)
Ouch, you mean bus model OS390 via SNA?
Everyone wanted it, so here it is. I've posted a listing of all the towers - Master, satellite and interlocking - in the system. If anyone catches any errors, please let me know. Questions concerning the colors will ONLY be dealt with through e-mail.
http://home.att.net/~alabianca/
I didn't catch a couple of towers.
Crosstown Line--Court Square satellite.
West End--8th Av satellite (controls switches north of 9th Avenue and yard leads to 38 St Yard).
Also the lead in to Fresh Pond Yard is controlled by ENYM.
Read the rest of the list. Joe Murphy on the West End only controls up to the Portal. From X2 ball (southbound switch to the express track) to Ninth Avenue is controlled by 8th Ave. Tower (see prior post).
Also you're correct on the Essex Tower listing. The switches at the Broad Street relay are indeed controlled by City Hall.
Mea culpa. I thought 8th Ave was part of Murphy Tower. Any idea why that area was not made a part of Murphy?
As for Court Sq, the schematic I have only shows a Maintainer's Panel there, not a full tower. Is it still active or has Queensboro taken over?
Correct. The model board has been removed from Court Square and is under QBP control.
Mind if I add that to the faq?
A copy will be forthcoming, as soon as I make Zman's corrections.
Would you mind if I submitted the link to my various Tower groups once the information is finalized? I wonder if I could get Mr. John Roma to add the information to his North American Interlocking Towers and Cabins list. At last count there were only about 160 active towers left in North America. The NYCS could help to bolster this number. Also, it would be good to know which Master Towers could still qualify as interlocking towers. The criteria is being along the RoW with direct control of switches and signals. For example F Tower in Fostoria OH is basically a master tower for the area with a big computerized interlocking machine. However it is in a trackside tower and counts as an interlocking tower. The Penn Station Control Centre is located geographically near to Penn Station, but has no physical contact with the RoW and is considered a remote dispatching centre.
If the yards count as RoW, than all of the Master Towers would fit your description of interlocking towers. If not, then discount Westchester Master, Stillwell Master, ENY Master, Murphy Master and 207 Master. Go ahead and submit the link; info is kind of useless if it doesn't get shared. Keep in mind that the interlocking towers I listed are not manned 24/7 - I don't know if that will have any bearing.
A tower counts as open even if it is just "Open As Needed". Yes yard towers count, but a control centre burried in some building w/ no outside view might be a little iffy.
Doesen't that guy with the tower list also like to get the kind of machine in use?
I'd kinda like to know which ones still have lever frames, just for my personal reference...
Dave
Yes, the URL is http://zippy.cso.uiuc.edu:8080/~roma/towers/.
You wouldn't believe it, but I do have that listing. If everyone really wants i, though, you're just gonna have to wait a while - I have some other things that need updating first.
Great, can't wait!
I often wondered why that list didn't have all of the manned MTA towers...
Question: What is at the North end of North Bound Canal (A/C/E).Is that also a tower and what area does it control
To the best of my knowledge, it is not a tower. Next time I'm down that way, I'll take a look.
No it isn't.
I thought it controlled the center-track interlocking......?
The homeball lever numbers repeat, so I always assumed it wasn't run from the south end tower.
Thank you very much for this. I have been waiting for a list like this for some time.
Isn't there a tower at South Ferry, in direct view of the platform? (There's an old strip map from the mid-80's inside, if anyone's interested.)
That is not a tower, just a dispatcher's office. The only thing that can be controlled from there is the override for the gap fillers and the holding lights at the station.
Thanks for the correction. How commonplace are dispatcher's offices?
You can always find at least one TD at each Master Tower and terminal. Some terminals are only staffed with ATDs (Chambers St on the 1/9), while South Ferry, which is not a terminal is staffed by a CR.
I never stop being amazed at what you can LEARN just by taking a daily dose of SubTalk ... thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
With the impending doom of the red birds, what do you think the final destination sign should read. How about #7: Flushing Express
Michael
The redbirds won't have any signs on them when they're submerged.
But if they did, I'd suggest South Ferry.
No, it should be Flushing.
compromise: Flushing on one end and South Ferry on the other. To me, South Ferry seems more appropriate but Flushing is just funny.
nothing just dump them but maybe the & since it has dedicated over 40 years to birds
trainguy
Woodlawn, for the largest cemetery in the Bronx.
6 Pelham Bay Park
How about M86 West End Av...
D'oh! Wrong board...1 to south ferry then :-)
Damn; I was thinking "M16 WATERSIDE" or possibly "COASTAL STORM EVACUATION ROUTE"
Well, they are being flushed into the ocean rather quickly, so I think Flushing Express is appropriate
Atlantic Aveune, since that's the ocean they're ending up in. But to avoid potential lawsuits, they probably better sign up the cars for "Not In Service" just in case someome scuba diver tries to board them for a ride to Grand Central :-)
How about Ocean Parkway? :)
--Mark
Anyone who's ridden the weekend W knows that the TA is planning ahead. When it's time to scrap the R-68A's, they can go to either ocean.
they can go to either ocean.
What about the Arctic? Or - even though the US doesn't come in contact with it - the Indian?
I know there are more than two oceans.
If you want to kill the joke, go ahead. It wasn't a very good one to begin with.
I wanted to get someone to respond with which roll signs the Arctic and Indian Oceans require.
There are two Indian Roads in NYC, one in Manhattan and one in the Bronx. Conveniently, both are near yards. Set the roll signs to 207th Street and 242nd Street.
There are no Arctics, but there is an Arc Place in Staten Island, very close to the SIR tracks.
They are going to put a *new* sign on the front of the lead car.
It will read "Gone Fishing"
Elias
01-Davey Jones' Locker
How about no words and just one of those frowny faces. :(
I saw the Paul Matus segment of 'Gotham TV' where Paul accidentaly stated that the Malbone Wreck train was supposed to go on the trackage to the left, not toward the right through the tunnel portal. He made this statement while riding at the railfan window of a southbound hippo having pulled out of Botanic Garden station, so the footage gave a view of the dual tunnel portals north of Prospect Park.
Of course the accident occurred on the tunnel portal to the right (southbound tracks) as was the common Brighton route in those days.
BMTman
According to a book I recently purchased, "The Malbone Street Wreck," the tracks leading to the right had only just been installed on the line before the accident and the motorman might not have known they were there.
I read something about the motorman was not the regular guy, and he did not know the route that well.
Chuck Greene
I read something about the motorman was not the regular guy, and he did not know the route that well.
It was even worse than that. Not only was Edward Luciano not the regular motorman on that route, he wasn't a regular motorman, period. He was a dispatcher who had been hurredly pressed into motorman service during a strike.
I can't remember offhand how much training Luciano had been given, but it was far less than what motormen normally received.
Here is more info: Before the train crash his train went past a switch that train had to back up then proceed along the Franklin Shuttle Route. The m.p.h. around the curve was 6 m.p.h. he took it around 30+ m.p.h. and it was not the train crashing that killed the most people. When the train crashed alot of people got out and walked about, the people that controled the power thought that the third rail power had a spike so instead of investiagting, they turned on the third rail and alot of people got electrocuted. Thats what put the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Out of Buisness.
Once he passed that swtich and went to the next station I would have gotten off.
Actually, the crashing train ripped the third rail out of the ground, causing the power to fail. When the BRT discovered the power failure, it was thought that the failure had occurred due to vandalism by the striking motormen's union. The BRT turned the power back on, and many people who survived the crash were electrocuted instead.
Actually, the crashing train ripped the third rail out of the ground, causing the power to fail. When the BRT discovered the power failure, it was thought that the failure had occurred due to vandalism by the striking motormen's union. The BRT turned the power back on, and many people who survived the crash were electrocuted instead.
As I noted in my response to Christopher, there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any electrocution deaths.
Really? Hmmm. I have a book entitled "The Malbone Street Wreck" which states that there were electrocution deaths.
Really? Hmmm. I have a book entitled "The Malbone Street Wreck" which states that there were electrocution deaths.
The fairly recent book by Brian Cudahy? That is the most carefully researched and footnoted account of the wreck, and it very convincingly debunks the notion of the electrocution deaths.
Not only did no death certificates show electrocution-related deaths, there's the simple and documented fact that controllers in the BRT powerhouse restored third-rail power one minute or less after it was lost. That was scarcely enough time for more than a very few survivors (a high percentage of whom were quite seriously injured) to make their way out of the cars onto the roadbed.
And of course, one could read the NY Times article from the following day's edition detailing the crash at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/brighton/malbone01.html
Enjoy.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The NY Times article, not atypical of earlu news accounts, has many inaccuracies, among the most egregious;
[subhead] First Car Crashes Into Tunnel Pier
and Other Cars Grind It to Splinters
The first car was virtually undamaged and telecoping of other cars was minimal.
Also:
Dispatcher, as Strike Motorman, Sends Crowded Train
to Doom at 70 Miles an Hour
Strictly hearsay. Most probably the trainw as traveling 30 m.p.h.
Next-day stories of the second worst railroad accident in U.S. history were bound to have inaccuracies in it, especially since even in 1918, the Times wasn't known for its great outerborough coverage. If someone knew where the archives for the Brooklyn Eagle are located, they probably would have a more accurate next-day account, though there would still undoubtably be errors due to the mass confusion.
Next-day stories of the second worst railroad accident in U.S. history were bound to have inaccuracies in it, especially since even in 1918, the Times wasn't known for its great outerborough coverage. If someone knew where the archives for the Brooklyn Eagle are located, they probably would have a more accurate next-day account, though there would still undoubtably be errors due to the mass confusion.
Not that the Times' outerborough coverage is any better today. At any rate, the Eagle archives must exist somewhere, as Brian Cudahy footnoted to them quite extensively.
The Brooklyn Public Library (the main one at Grand Army Plaza) has a full archive in the periodicals department.
>>> Next-day stories of the second worst railroad accident in U.S. history were bound to have inaccuracies in it <<<
This is true of any big story from that era. At that time the newspapers were in a rush to get their "extras" on the street before the competition, and therefore did not check their facts that well. When researching, it is necessary to look for follow up articles in the next few days, and in a disaster story, reporting of the official investigation which may be several months later.
Tom
And yet, curiously, there is no mention of any number --even one-- of people who survived the crash only to be electrocuted by third rail.
I wonder why that is? Especially given the Times' "egregious" (your term) penchant for sensationalism...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
And yet, curiously, there is no mention of any number --even one-- of people who survived the crash only to be electrocuted by third rail.
I wonder why that is? Especially given the Times' "egregious" (your term) penchant for sensationalism...
Well, I didn't say "sensationalism" although the article is a lot more sensational than we expect from "The Gray Lady" these days.
But, of course, they didn't mention the electrocutions because they didn't happen. You'd best believe if it did happen it would have been screamed about in all the papers.
Here is more info: Before the train crash his train went past a switch that train had to back up then proceed along the Franklin Shuttle Route. The m.p.h. around the curve was 6 m.p.h. he took it around 30+ m.p.h. and it was not the train crashing that killed the most people. When the train crashed alot of people got out and walked about, the people that controled the power thought that the third rail power had a spike so instead of investiagting, they turned on the third rail and alot of people got electrocuted. Thats what put the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Out of Buisness.
A couple of comments:
(1) Luciano did indeed take the wrong route at a switch at Franklin Avenue. He apparently he had failed to display the proper marker lights to alert the tower operator. But that wasn't at all an uncommon sort of error, and he corrected it in a proper, by-the-book manner.
(2) The electrocution story is almost certainly an urban legend. Nearly all of the deaths were caused by massive head injuries. Not one death certificate showed any injuries consistent with electrocution.
I read somewhere that Luciano's train was moving along the Fulton St. line at a good clip, so much so that the towerman at Franklin Ave. left that particular switch set straight ahead knowing there was no way that train would stay on the rails if it took the diverging lineup. Isn't it true that Luciano's train didn't have marker lights, just a placard on the front platform of the first car?
I read somewhere that Luciano's train was moving along the Fulton St. line at a good clip, so much so that the towerman at Franklin Ave. left that particular switch set straight ahead knowing there was no way that train would stay on the rails if it took the diverging lineup. Isn't it true that Luciano's train didn't have marker lights, just a placard on the front platform of the first car?
According to the account in Brian Cudahy's book, Luciano had failed to set the marker lights on his train. It was too dark out for the towerman to see the placard. As the previous train had gone via the Franklin Avenue route, the towerman assumed that Luciano's would be going out Fulton, and set the switch accordingly.
Luciano stopped his train when he realized it wasn't going down Franklin and spoke to the towerman. Both of them followed standard procedures in getting the train re-routed, losing about eight minutes in the process. I got the impression from the book that this sort of switch error was not at all uncommon.
Once he passed that swtich and went to the next station I would have gotten off.
There were stories that Luciano overshot the platform at Sands Street and that a number of passengers got off right there. But many others reported that the ride was uneventful until the missed switch at Franklin/Fulton.
I'm not all that surprised that people didn't get off at Franklin/Fulton. They could easily have reasoned that the missed switch wasn't a big surprise, what with the strike and everything. And what would happen if they got off? They still had to get home. And why would they think the following train would be any better?
Simple question: how many people got off the Union Square train? And that was a really wild ride.
Once he passed that swtich and went to the next station I would have gotten off.
I'm not all that surprised that people didn't get off at Franklin/Fulton. They could easily have reasoned that the missed switch wasn't a big surprise, what with the strike and everything. And what would happen if they got off? They still had to get home. And why would they think the following train would be any better?
And some passengers might have figured that the missed switch was the towerman's fault. Not a wholly illogical way of thinking, either; everyone knew that the train didn't have a steering wheel, but not everyone would have known about the marker lights.
According to the NY times report available through the links to NY Subway accidents through subway FAQ on this site, Luciano:
"said that the only experience he had had in running a motor was in switching about a year ago, but that he had been taking instruction for two days on the B.R.T. before running the train yesterday".
I too saw that piece last week & enjoyed it very much, including the blooper.
Good work Paul, was nice to SEE you !
Mr t__:^)
Thanks, Thurston,
It was fun. The filmimg crew was great--a real New York experience.
The Queens IND was a mess last night during that torrential downpour of a thunderstorm we had around 7:30pm. I had intened to go from Steinway Street all the way to East Broadway by transferring from a Queens IND local to the F train at Queens Plaza. This was not to be. I waited a good 20 minutes for an 'R' train at Steinway, where there were two locations where literal waterfalls were spilling onto the edge of the platform area from the street, as I imagine happens numerous places throughout the system when it rains so hard, so fast.
This turns out to be an understatement. The "splash" zones at Steinway, which may have been 3 feet in diameter each, were nothing compared to the Niagra experience at 36th Street. The signals must have been slow to respond, because we crawled to 36th from Steinway. It took us 10 minutes to go one stop. I imagine the T/O was asking Supervision permission to blow the reds, because we kept stopping. As a matter of fact, the waterfall started before we pulled into 36th while we were sitting in the tunnel, sounding like so many steel drums -- let's just say that a set of R-46s won't have to go through the car-washer for a while.
Anyway, when the C/R finally opened the doors, closed them, and then opened them again, with their remaining so for a few long seconds, I decided this was a sign and leapt off to head towards the Astoria line, which, I figured, has the virtue of being elevated and would thus avoid the same signal problems. The platform at 36th Street smelled of "electricity," and smoke was rising from the space in between the train and the platform. You gotta do what you gotta do, so I got out my umbrella and headed for the exit to the street. Some fellow on the platform saw me do this and told me doing that was a "good way to kill" myself. I guess he thought I could get electrocuted. I figured I was safe with my rubber-souled shoes and plastic umbrella handle, but it didn't concern me much, so I ignored him. Anyway, I really have never seen anything like this torrent that was pouring into the station.
Luckily, the rain had let up a bit by the time I surfaced. I scurried to the Beebe Avenue stop and ran up the stairs, swiping my unlimited ride card, effecting a subway-to-subway free transfer. As I waited on the elevated, canopied platform at 39th Avenue, a 'W' train soon pulled in, which thrilled me, because I had already decided not to take a chance on an 'F' train transfer in Manhattan, but rather to take the Broadway line to Canal and walk over to East Broadway. That way I would also get to check out the new Canal St. "bridge" station. Plus, (bonus!) the 'W' would run express!
As we pulled into 57/7th, I saw a 'Q' train with its doors open across the platform. Not knowing which train would depart first, I stayed put. As luck would have it, the 'Q' pulled out first, but we soon followed. We caught up with the 'Q' at Times Sq. after a brief stop at 49th St., where I decided to chance it and ran over to the R-40 Slants, which, as luck would have it, pulled out first! As we rode down Broadway, I worked my way to the first car, but had to share my view of the new route to Canal St. with another fellow.
At Canal, I wended my way throught the J/M/Z Concourse to the street and was on my way. I had never been so close to the Manhattan Bridge colonade, so that was a treat to see. They must have fixed it up lately, as I saw no graffiti.
I arrived to my destination completely soaked, but only moderately tardy, thanks to the Broadway Express!
Most of the IND has had drainage problems for the last several years, especially the Queens line. So I'm not surprised by your story. What I am surprised by the inability of the TA to fix it, despite so many disruptions of service.
That downpour last night was just plain insane. I wonder if other parts of the system got just as much water?
I live closeby both steinway & 36th. I was going to go out around 7, but it was dark enough for me to sit on the porch figuring it would pass in a few minutes. little did i suspect it would turn into an hour long monsoon that left a good 4 inches of water in the backyard. (clogged drains are BAD - though nothing got flooded...).
...hour-long monsoon...
"monsoon: Derived from Arabic mausim, a season. A name for seasonal winds."
-Source: Glossary of Meteorology (Second Edition), American Meteorological Society, 2000, Todd Glickman, Manging Editor.
Monsoons bring a lot of rain in parts of the world, such as India. But monsoon itself does not mean rain. So perhaps "...hour-long downpour..." would be better.
downpour doesn't quit fit the bill though. i've always associated monsoons with larger than normal amounts of water for watever reason...
I say that in this case "monsoon" is just short for "monsoon *storm*" and therefore perfectly acceptable to describe the weather, as a monsoon-style downpour - a "monsoon".
Anyway to look up what the inches per hour of rainfall we got last night especially that hour of the downpour in Brooklyn. 7 to 8pm.
The best I can do is get you 24-hour rainfall totals (8am yesterday to 8am today) for the following reporting locations:
NYC CENTRAL PARK 0.36
NEW YORK (LGA) 0.39
NEW YORK (JFK) 0.35
ISLIP 0.00
NWSFO BROOKHAVEN 0.00
OCEANSIDE 0.09
SEA CLIFF 0.17
WHITE PLAINS 0.20
.... NEW JERSEY ....
TETERBORO 0.94
MIDLAND PARK 0.66
GREENWOOD LAKE 0.05
CHARLOTTEBURG 0.87
HARRISON 0.49
NEWARK AP Trace
Yes, it's very possible to have a thunderstorm drop a few inches of rain in an hour, and never land in the "bucket" at an offical reporting station. So while there may have been a downpour in Bensonhurst or Forest Hills, much less may have fallen at JFK or LGA.
i had about 3.5 to 4 inches in astoria...
It gives you a better idea to look at Doppler radar estimates, since there's a very small chance that the heaviest rain would fall at an observing station. That's what I do, as soon as yesterday's is available at Intellicast.com
Thanks Todd
This happens in Denver a lot this time of year. A storm cell will remain over a particular locale and dump an inch or more in an hour causing flooded intersections, etc. I-25 has a few low spots which flood easily, and the drainage system gets overwhelmed quickly. They've been installing new storm drains as major intersections get rebuilt, and I-25 will get a new drainage system as part of the T-Rex project starting next month.
When I visited Colorado one summer, you could predict the thunderstorms like clockwork. Every day at about 4pm, the bottom dropped out, and I couldn't see 5 feet in front of the car on I-25 for about fifteen minutes. A few minutes later, sunshine. Shows what a large mountain range will do for you.
Yeah it was insane and there wasn't much warning except for the darkening sky. The storm just popped over NYC and western Nassau and was in no rush. It did last about an hour from when I left Flushing just before 8pm till when I got home around 9pm.
The rain was blinding, like in a hurricane. Man I wonder what it would've been like to ride the 7 or any other elevated line during the storm! I betcha there were alot of leaky Redbirds!
I am reminded of one rainy Sunday in May of 1967. We went into the city and spent the afternoon at the Museum of Natural History. While waiting for our AA train at 81st St. which would take us back to Port Authority, I noticed water dripping from the ceiling to the trackbed. Naturally, by the time our AA train arrived, an A train had ripped past. Then when it did pull in, a D train was alongside us until 72nd St. I can still see the backlit "Coney Island" side signs on those R-1/9s.
Speaking of signs, I reset the bottom destination sign on my sign box to "Sixth Av. - 34th St." to reflect the new service pattern for the D. Maybe it's time to sign it up for something else.
That was a torrential downpour all right. I was on the bus around Great Neck, and everything was flooded. I was even worried the bus would get stuck in a few of the flooded parts but it didn't.
I wondered how the subways fared. With that kind of rain I'd be suprised if there wasn't any flooding.
We know 1651-1670 is already over on the #1 line. Add 1861-65,1871-80(was on the #3 line previously) and 1826-30. Looks like 1826-30 was recently delivered as they were still sporting the #6 signs between cars.
Cars 1651-1670 have the 240th Street red stripe under the numbers. The other are still sporting the Pelham yellow stripes.
They took 1871-1880 from Livonia (where they are needed) to 240th (where there are enough)? I don't get the logic behind this.
I got one on Sunday with a yellow stripe and a 3 strip map. Threw me way off-guard. I want my red stripes back.
That was probably from the 1871-1880 set.
And yet, still not a single R62A on the 7 train! What's taking so long for them to go to Flushing?
They have to flush the Redfins first...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Aye Aye, Sub-Bus.
For those interested: Bayside Historical Society at Fort Totten is running an exhibit on "Trolleys of the North Shore," open Monday through Saturday, 11 AM to 3 PM. It runs until June, 2003.
Is there more information on what is in the exhibit?
I saw it listed in the paper; I'll pass along more information when/if I get to see it.
You mean you didn't see it listed in Branford's newsletter
first??? We helped them assemble the exhibit, which is about
the New York & North Shore company.
[... which is about the New York & North Shore company.]
BTW, the NY & North Shore Traction trolley company was replaced by the North Shore bus company, which was replaced by the TA's Queens Div. bus operation.
I am going to try & see the exhibit to see if any examples from NY & Queens County, Jamaica Central Ry., Manhattan & Queens, etc. are represented also.
Mr t__:^)
Sorry, Jeff; I haven't gotten the August issue yet, nor had I read it online. The Queens Tribune beat you to it :).
You need to find the time as it catches one of the female members of the 3/4 Ton Crew hard at work on the R-17.
Yes gentlemen we have a few gals who love to get dirty with the boys.
Mr t__:^)
Yes gentlemen we have a few gals who love to get dirty with the boys.
Yeah, but they don't usually like to advertise that fact... ;)
When I was still a pre-schooler, I recall going to the Jamacia Business area With my mother and aunts on the Q-6 Greenline bus. We turned right off Sutphin Blvd. onto Jamaica Ave. under the "el". There were trolly tracks in use on Jamaica Ave. I recall them passing in the oposite direction.
It was a thrill for a little kid, it would be a thrill now!
Does anyone know what line or lines ran under the Jamacia "el"? From where to where? I think I recall old trolly tracks on Queens Blvd. where Queens Blvd ended at Jamaic Ave. Is My Memeory Good or am I drifting away?
avid
Queens Blvd. was served by Manhattan & Queens Ry which got cut back to just the Queensboro Bridge. That line, the last in NY State for a number of years got bus-substituted in April 7th of 1957.
I remember the tracks under the el of the J at "City Line".
Mr t__:^)
I thought that plans were afoot to realign the tracks in the Nassau Street subway to use only the renovated (currently southbound) platform at Canal Street and close the unrenovated platform to revenue service. This would also affect Bowery station similarly.
In reading over the entry for Canal Street on the site today, the realignment is now referred to as mere "speculation."
Is this plan going forward or not? Does anyone know?
the proposal is in the current 5 year plan. If you'll look at the J plats at Canal and Bowery, you'll see renovation only on the Broad Street bound side. When the page was written it is speculation.
Peggy has advised me she is asking Dave to change this to show the intent to change the stations to a single island platform by only using the Broad Street bound side.
A woman fainted and fell onto the track at Sterling St station yesterday and was killed by a number 2 train.
Daily News story
A truely tragic story
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps educating the public on how to give a stop signal to an operator would help in the future. Of course not everyone carries a flashlight or a red bandanna or whatever, and not every fall is witnessed by waiting persons, etc. Then again the operator may not even take the stop signal or see it, or take it seriously, etc. But if a life could be saved at least some times it is better than none.
Any frantic or violent waving at an operator should be accepted as a stop sign too..but then who knows if it is for real...when in doubt..etc.
That's so horrid!! The same thing happened last year when a woman passed out at Grand Street, and she fell in front of a "B" train. Very tragic.............
A while ago I heard somebody having the idea of extending the platforms along the #7 line to hold 12 cars, in that case when the R62A comes in their gonna be 5 car link units with single units, so with 2 singles on each end of the train to still give the railfan windows, so that we won't loose the Flushing line railfan view, who thinks that the MTA might do this plan to extend the platforms along the line to serve 12 car length, because like they say their are some long stations like Grand Central, Vernon Jackson, Queensboro Plaza & Willets Point that could hold 12 car train?
One more question? When the R62A singles come will they put them on the middle train, Flushing end or Times Square end?
Please put on your glasses and read the following:
The Transit Authority is in the business of providing transportation. Anything else that it does are fringe benefits that may be changed at any time. Therefore, railfains should not demand storm-window views, trains of out-of-service cars, work specials, and subway lines just because those fans want them.
IF they continue 11-car trains on the 7 line, they wll likely place the single car in the middle of the train. Additionally, there is no guaruntee that the assigned cars will remain in the current 5-car sets. They can easily be converted to 6-, 4-, or 3-car sets, in addition to the 5-car sets.
-Hank
It is not possibel to extend the Main Street platform to hold 12 cars unless they demolish everything they built recently at the northend.
They can't do it at the other end becaue the switches are there.
I think this would apply to any station that has switches near the station (Willets Pt, Queensboro Plaza etc).
So whoever had such an idea would have been shot down.
PATH puts their conductor at the back of the 1st car so the 1st car of 8 car trains at Exchange Place is closed.
Well, NYCT is not PATH.
PATH doesn't come close to NYCT in any aspect. It is not proper to make a comparison.
Also it is a major construction job to extend the platforms. I'm not in construction, but remember the last lenghtening in the early 60's for the R 33/36 WF"s. Vehicular and train disruptions, because you have to put support beams in, pump concrete up to the new platform areas. Also consider the masonry for Rawson, Lowery and Bliss Street stations. Also what about the MONEY ?????.
Between SEQRA, drafting of plans and actual construction, the R62's will be ready for the scrap heap. No public works project happens overnite.
Between SEQRA...
CEQR (City Environmental Quality Review)?
And they couldn't move the switches if they chose to extend the platforms? Stop thinking so one-dimensionally.
-Hank
Just more expense to add to my post.
Queensboro Plaza would only need to be extended about 20 feet, since it already handles 600-foot N/W trains.
So whoever had such an idea would have been shot down.
I did. I was. Problem solved.
Dan
...Queensboro Plaza...
Don't think that one's an issue...
Remember when I speculated that there was a jinx on the CTA due to three incidents disrupting morning rush service in about a week's time?
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=248606
Well, the jinx strikes again! A freight train on the IC tracks paralleling the Metra Electric line derailed before 6am yesterday and completely knocked over one of the catenary arches, downing the wires at that point and stopping all Metra Electric service south of Kensington (115th Street) pretty much all day yesterday.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-0108150384aug15.story?coll=chi%2Dnews%2Dhed
So that's four "plagues" on Chicago transit so far this month. What next? :^)
WELL...bad things come in threes...and this is obviously number three.
Peace,
ANDEE
So that's four "plagues" on Chicago transit so far this month. What next? :^)
Well, let me see... six to go... number five is blight... and the incident you described above, number four, certainly fits... the fourth plague is that of wild beasts, and an errant freight matches that description...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For those of you (myself included) who didn't believe that TA brass doesn't ride the subway, have I got news for you.
Today I had some business in Downtown Brooklyn. I entered the system at about 12:40 Pm at the Broadway-Nassau station (I was taking either the A or C to Jay St). Who should I see on the platform waiting for a train? Larry Reuter!! He had made a purchase at a sports specialty store located on Broadway in the lower Manhattan area (I won't go into which one) and was heading back to TA Headquarters.
Since he has no idea who I am I did not enter into conversation with him. But he got off at Jay St. and entered 370 Jay at street level.
The fact that he has no idea who you are does not mean you can't say hello, introduce yourself and shake hands.
I offer that as an observation, not at all as criticism. Leaving somebody to his/her own business is cool too.
I have always made it a personal policy to give a famous or well known individual their personal space. They get enough of people while being a "public" person, they deserve some privacy.
Yes, a good point.
However, from my own point of view, I draw at least a dotted line between "public people" who are nonetheless in private businesses (movie stars, private business people etc.) and public servants who run vital services I depend on and pay taxes and fares to use. Thus, while I won't bother Tom Cruise should I pass him by on the street (he really doesn't have anything to do with me and I'm not much for autographs anyway :-) ), I might have a polite word with somebody like Larry Reuter and not feel guilty at all about it.
Somebody like Larry Reuter may in fact enjoy that someone recognized him ... I too might walk up to him just to have a polite word with the man.
I remember Virgial's first week on the job, he made a point of going underground, with reporters, as he wanted to be seen there.
Mr t__:^)
And never rode the rails after that.
"And never rode the rails after that."
Wrong. He commuted on Metro-North, even calling on his cellphone once on behalf of other passengers on the platform to inquire as to why a train was late!
And so did Tom Preddergast of the LIRR before he moved to SI.
Now he's in London, wonder if he commutes to work.
Rob in London ... got your ears on ?
Mr t__:^)
Then-governor Michael Dukakis of Massachusetts rode the MBTA Green Line to the State House often.
But then he decided to take a ride in a tank when running for president...
Hay now wait a minute ... what are you infering about the Green line ... LOL !
This employee looks forward to the opportunity to ride our coaches to the City for a meeting ... I also have to take a subway to complete my trip ;-)
Mr t
He should ride the subway to work everyday. Do you guys REALLY think Mike Bloomberg will take the subway if he becomes Mayor? I'm seriously considering voting for him because of his views on transit, and I also like having a dude in office so rich that he can't be bribed!
I also like having a dude in office so rich that he can't be bribed!
That was tried with Nelson Rockefeller. It did not work very well.
Nelson's brother David did ride the bus to work at time when he ran Chase Manhattan, but he was a little more low-key than Rocky was, and Bloomberg's personality strikes me as being closer to Nelson's than to his brother.
Rich people who like having the little people know they're rich by getting their names in the paper all the time usually don't like hanging around with the little people in cramped spaces for any time at all, unless the cramped space includes a large press gallery.
This is all a publicity stunt in my opinion, the big rich guy will tell all the press that he's going to ride the subway one day. Never again though...
He said he'd ride some form of transit, including taxis, every day. Most New Yorkers reserve cab rides for special occasions, but I expect that's how he'll fulfill his campaign promise (assuming he chooses to do so at all).
(He said he'd ride some form of transit, including taxis, every day. Most New Yorkers reserve cab rides for special occasions, but I expect that's how he'll fulfill his campaign promise (assuming he chooses to do so at all).)
Absolutely. I consider a taxi an unaffordable luxury. The only exception is the Upper East Side cabstands where you share a ride downtown with two other people. At least that's something of a "mass."
But riding in taxis is a way to keep an eye on the T&LC. Just because it costs more than the subway doesn't mean it should get less or no attention.
Bloomberg called taxis "mass transit."
Seth
"As Mayor, to encourage the use of mass transit, I pledge to lead by example. During my administration, I will use public transportation at least once every day rather than the City-provided official car."
Also, instead of nitpicking a flubbed line flagged by the Daily News, I recommend reading into the concepts of the issue, like City control over New York City Transit, or commitment to funding large capital projects.
Flagged by the Daily News? I don't read the Daily News. I noticed it on my own.
Bloomberg has some good ideas, but I'm not entirely convinced he'll put them into action.
Larry Reuter!! He had made a purchase at a sports specialty store located on Broadway in the lower Manhattan area (I won't go into which one)
Toys in Babeland?
Granted, that's really pushing the definition of "sports."
I guess you must know that place from personal experience.
I guess you must know that place from personal experience.
Perish the thought! Actually, it's those ads in the Village Voice ...
LOL ... remember Allan & Peter you both love mass transit, so be nice.
Mr t__:^)
Was he with body guards?
N/W
No, he was by himself and while traveling he even leaned agianst the door.
WOW!
Wait! No one else notice either?
Well he's just a average looking guy with a nice middleage bulge.
Mr t__:^)
Does anybody have a list? I'm sure one of you does because I went into archives and in March 2001 this year someone said they have the list and would post it but there isn't any post in the thread. All I know is that they go alphabetically and then the numbered ones.
Here you go.
Thanks a bunch!!!
If any one want to apply for NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation??? Go pick up the Application Form at 370 Jay Street,at the Information Center Lobby & 1250 Broadway 11th Floor, Employment Center. It will last until August 28, 2001 & the written test is on October 20, 2001. Starting Salary is $11.8325 an hours & you get 3 weeks training.
Peace
David Justiniano
I received an Email from a acquaintance in NY who says that he saw the new Subway Calendar in a hobbyshop in the city.
The cover photo is supposedly of an AB fantrip from Rockaway,
Is the 2002 Calendar really available this early?
And if it is, where can I get a copy if I don't live in New York?
From Newkirk Images, P. O. Box 237, Department X, Copiague, NY 11726
ANd the next important question...How Much does it cost if we want to order it from Newkirk Images??? including shipping.
Cover is AB coming off the Carnasie Line (Rockaway Ave) and on to the Broadway El at East NY.
Virginia Division - BMT
"Is the 2002 Calendar really available this early? "
Yep, it's that time of the year again.
Page 2 of the inside cover is in color for the first time. The color photo of a new R-38 at St.Louis Car Co. compared with a artist rendering of what a painted non stainless steel R-38 was supposed to look like will open some eyes !
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
This next fact will surprise any SubTalker here, but I had seen copies of the new New York City Subways Calendar 2002 being sold at the SEPTA Transit Museum Store in Philadelphia on Thursday, August 2, 2001. Yes, they were issued for sale that early.
As a pre-caution measure, I had purchased at that point my regular two copies (as I always do annually with these calendars) in the event I was unable to obtain them on a future date. Again, lots of great photos, including inside a fantastic, amazing shot of the Sunday, November 8, 1987 fantrip with a six-car R-17 "Redbird" train at 181st Street on the IRT #1 line in Manhattan.
-William A. Padron
Are these calanders available in NYC?
Most likely, the calanders will be sold at the ERA meeting Friday night (17 Aug).
Virginia Division - ERA
"Are these calanders available in NYC?"
If you are attending tomorrow nights NY Division ERA meeting, I will bring about 36 of them.
If not, they are available at Red Caboose at 23 West 45th St. between 5th and 6th Ave in Manhattan (212)575-0155.
The Transit Museum Gift shops don't have them yet.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
oh... so transit museum gift shops will have them eventually? and how much is it?
"oh... so transit museum gift shops will have them eventually? and how much is it?"
I would assume it would be $10.95, I'm not sure what they charge.
I told them the calenday is available, now I have to wait and see when they will buy them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
On my wall is Bill's great calendar, plus NYNH&H group (old photos), LIRR, NYCTA bus & Metro Mag buses (used to have WABCO of mass transit from around the US, but my friend in Atlanta couldn't get me one or himself one this year).
Mr t__:^)
Looking at the BMT track map, I see that the Broadway express tracks lead right into the 63st tunnel after the 57st/7AV station. It seems that instead of having to bother operating this new V train to Queens, it seems easier to route the Q trains into Queens via the 63st tube. Or is there just not enough capacity to run all of the Qs on the same Queens Boulevard local track as the R and being able to succesfully terminate there. And then there is also the problem of 57/6AV station losing service with the ending of the 63st shuttle. This problem could be fixed by having the F run through the 63st tube, but if the Q and R are too much for one track, then the Q and F will definetely be too much for one track. And if only the E and R are serving QP, maybe that will give enough room for the G to terminate there. And another good thing about this is no station will have less service than before the bridge flip, except W4 and Broadway-Laffayette. And maybe, without a 63st shuttle, the Grand Street Shuttle could be extended to W4.
Well....
1. as you said, putting the F on 63rd fixes the problem of no service to 57th/6th, but it also means that only one train goes thru 53rd st tunnel.
2.You can't extend both Q's. Not only are there not enough cars, there isn't enough track capacity.
3. You can't run one Q through while terminating the other. Not possible.
The first problem could be solved by keeping the F where it is. The 53rd Street tunnel, including its connection to 6th Avenue, is far more important than 57th/6th.
But that still leaves your other two concerns. The V will also help alleviate the current deficit in 6th Avenue service.
It would have been nice if the Q could have been extended to Queens, but it just can't happen. Sorry. The V plan is, overall, a good one.
The Q and V lines serve different customers. Read David Greenberger's excellent post and also previous threads from the archives on the subject.
>>This problem could be fixed by having the F run through the 63st tube....<
Are we missing something here?? Isaac, when the V starts, the F will be running via 63rd St on a 24/7 basis. I don't get why you made the statement above.
I was just saying that I don't know if the F and Q trains could all fit on one track.
www.nycrail.com
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Over 1500 NYC Subway Photos More
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-Harry
FastCounter by bCentral
Nice shots. One question though. There is one shot of an IRT Redbird on 32 Track, is that R-29s 8800 and 8801 awaiting the scrapper? Any info? Have they even been in the shop?
Reference photo:
http://www.nycrail.com/images/ciy_8_15_01/ydoview2001_0815AB.JPG
-Stef
Yes- they are being scrapped- there are no rollsigns however there are still seats.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Hello subtalkers,
Does anyone know which interlockings in the NYCT system currently have computer-based data logging systems, and the trackage they govern?
I am aware of the Queensboro Plaza master tower and the trackage that it "sees". I'm also aware of STATIS but I mean track circuit occupancy indications, switch indications, holding lights, etc.
I seem to remember that other lines have had their signal bungalows outfitted with PLCs, which would make them candidates for computer-logging systems. In the MBTA Green Line and CTA Red Line, there are computer data recorders in a couple of signal rooms, which log circuit occupancy and signal data *independently* of control center software systems. Does NYCT, in any of its countless signal rooms, have computer-based logging? As difficult as it was to find out at both the CTA and MBTA, where signal engineers don't even know whether the computer logging systems still work, I'm not expecting it to be easy to find out about such systems at NYCT.
I'm a graduate student at MIT where we've just used the MBTA control center's database system, in which all train movements (entries and exits from track circuits) in the entire heavy rail system are logged permanently. I studied some aspects of operations, including service control and fine-tunings to schedules. I also have worked with data from the CTA command center software system, which only works with one track circuit per station, and thus is much less information (though they're working towards filling in the holes).
Is there anyone out there who does similar work?
Adam,
Email me privately at todd@nycsubway.org and perhaps I can help you.
Queensboro Plaza Master Tower is the only one that is computer based, and it is not fully operational yet. All other towers, and the entire RTO Control Center is run by old-fashioned iron and pencils.
They should stop using LEAD pencils ya know, lead effects the brain.
yes, i see the sarrrrrrcasm, just stupidly want to point out and reassure myself that its graphite not lead in pencils.
Reminds me of "The Odd Couple" episode where Felix and Oscar are on the game show "password".
Oscar: "Lead"
Felix (leans back and smiles): "Graphite!"
He was incorrect :)
--Mark
Soda water has no soda, lead pencils have no lead and Naragansett Pier has no pier.
Soda water has no soda, lead pencils have no lead and Naragansett Pier has no pier.
And egg creams don't have either.
..by "computerized" do you mean controlled by workstations? I've seen towers controlled by push-button model boards, with interlockings that they control having computers that record track circuit occupancy records (though in these cases the only people to know were in the signal department). Does NYCT have any such computers, and if so which ones are operational?
I am told that most interlockings have some kind of data recording devices, and while older ones are esterline paper and pen charts, the newer ones may be computers that keep a small rolling time window.
I assume also that the L line control center is at least partly built as well? Does anyone know whether selection of departure times will be controlled locally via workstations, as I assume they are done locally via model boards right now (correct me if I'm wrong).
Also, can anyone comment on whether the system software being provided in the L line control center, in Queensboro Plaza, and in the future ATS system are going to use proprietary languages? Some transit systems use a standardized data object model so that software systems can talk to each other. But here it seems that it would hardly be easy to add on any software without the cooperation of Harmon or Siemens. Is this true?
Also, a big question: does the database server performance affect the performance of the workstations in the tower? In the past, this has been a major problem at the MBTA and CTA, affecting everyone's ability to make any substantial SQL queries without bringing the control center down. Will Queensboro Plaza have features to allow queries to be made? And has anyone thought of how long-term storage will be handled? Is it true that the data will be stored for two days only?
Adam ... is it you the one who befriended me on a Transit Museum trip so many years ago ... where have you been ?
Mr t__:^)
Unless it was last summer to Coney Island, probably not me. Sorry, but hope you find him.
(Queensboro Plaza Master Tower is the only one that is computer based, and it is not fully operational yet. All other towers, and the entire RTO Control Center is run by old-fashioned iron and pencils.)
Even most of the recent signal systems are still relay-based, though they have been going to electronic for automatic signals. The new Bergen Street interlocking will be a pilot solid state interlocking.
Then there is the CBTC pilot, now under construction on the Canarsie Line. The system is planned to gradually shift to CBTC over 30-40 years.
Finally, there are a whole bunch of inter-linked projects -- a new Rail Control Center, a fiber-optic Data Newtork, and an automatic train supervision system for the IRT now in construction, an automated public address and customer information system for the IRT now in design (construction starts in January), and similar systems for the IND/BMT coming along later. This whole network probably won't be finished for ten years, though parts of it will be up and running much sooner.
Bottom line: it's all new and happening now.
...before you'd get off a train?
Chris Rivera said in another post that he would've gotten off the Malbone Street train after it missed the turn at Franklin/Fulton.
Would you have? Without knowing, of course, what was going to happen.
Would you get off a train if it badly overshot a couple of stations, as in Union Square? Or if you say the conductor having a discussion with the T/O about how he was operating the train (also Union Square)?
Or would you stay on to the bitter end with a "wild" T/O because you were unafraid, or it was exciting, or you were curious as to what was going to happen? Or you just wanted to get your tired vones home?
So what would cause YOU to abandon ship? Anything?
Honestly, I probably wouldn't get off a train if any of those things happened. Well, maybe the C/R talk to T/O thing, but otherwise, no.
I could imagine talking to the T/O of that train.
Me: So how come you missed that swtich, malfuction on the tower part?
Driver that caused the wreck: No I sent the wrong stuff to the tower
Me: What!!!! How many times have you driven a train
Driver that caused the wreck: This is my first time on this route, I dont know it well, this is basiclly my first time driving a train on a route
Me: You dont know this route!!!!! Yo! You are coming into this curve too hard!!!!
Driver that caused the wreck: No I can take it at over 30 m.p.h.
Me: NOOOOOOO! It says 6 m.p.h you idiot!!!
Driver that caused the wreck: Oops
Me: Oops!!!!! I'm going to kill you!!!
I think that most Subtalkers would hug the Railfan Window and yell out "YeeeeeHaaaaaa!!"
i'd get out if they overshot a platform a lot, or seemed out of control. then i'd make sure my camera was loaded and follow in the next train.
It depends. Is there a railfan window?
Excessive speed, particularly on curves would cause me to bail out - at a station of course. Since the only times I use an MTA rail service is the occasional SIR trip, I don't think I have much to worry about.
Personally, I'd probably stay on the train, unless there are equipment problems causing the trouble, and see what happens since there are trip arms that will stop a train that's attempting to pass a danger signal or going too fast in a timed section, etc. to prevent an accident from happening even if there is a terrible driver running the train.
Sounds reasonable?
-Robert King
I really wouldn't get off because I wouldn't expect an accident to happen. But if one does, I'd better die... it'd be cool for me to die in my place of happiness... the subway (N train! :)... no... I'm not a bum...
Lemme tell you a little story of what happens with old pre-war cars in a collision at 3MPH ... Cost me my two lower front teeth, a broken nose and a headache that went on for 3 weeks afterwards. This was a "minor yard mishap" I'm talking about.
In an R9, lost brakes at a slow layup speed and rear-ended a train ahead of me when they failed. You'd get tired of sitting on the crappy fold-down square behind you on the bulkhead, so often you'd operate standing just to get back the ciruclation in your legs ... when I saw that rear end in my face, I dropped the controller, yanked the handle all the way back to "blam" and still it rolled. Yanked cord, you name it, nothing. Wham!
In my desperation, I sat yanking back the handle and when it was "contact time" I got thrown forward into the windshield. All this at THREE frigging miles per hour! Combine the mass, weight and delta velocity and lemme tell ya - ain't like being in a car wreck. And in this situation, nothing erratic other than a sudden brake failure. If you're going to worry about the unexpected, seal yourself in a bubble.
If you want to be practical, bear in mind that unlike the R9's, you screw up in the cab and chances are FAR BETTER that you will not be recognizable to accept the blame. 9 times out of 10, the motorman is dead before anyone else. Cabs in the proginy of the R1/10's struck me as being deathtraps in the even of a rearending ... history has largely borne that out - your chances as a T/O of dying in a wreck are probably higher than they were back when I wrecked. When I did school car in the 42's and 44's, THAT was the reason why I wanted the old road Pontiacs ... and still got banged up pretty badly at the time.
If you want to survive, get as far away from the front as you can, and if you think grabbing a pole is going to save you, kiss your arms goodbye. Your best bet is the bulkhead door, on the floor and hope the anticlimbers are in YOUR favor. Anyone who's actually operated and has SEEN what happens when you screw up, ain't gonna ... trust me on this, the T/O dies FIRST ... makes it matter. :)
>>> trust me on this, the T/O dies FIRST <<<
The greatest incentive to safe operation of the trains. As a passenger I wouldn't have it any other way.
The Army had a policy of having helicopter mechanics who made a major repair on the flight control systems or drive train ride along on the first check flight to see if their repairs were effective. An interesting quality control technique.
Tom
That was a lesson to me in the software biz ... around here, if anyone has a complaint, the people who WRITE the code get to explain what went wrong. It DOES work ... best incentive in the world for me, if I screw up, I never get out from under all the email since all complaints come to ME. :)
>>> That was a lesson to me in the software biz <<<
Unfortunately the standard in the software business seems to be to sell it first and let the users debug it. An example is a program I paid several hundred dollars for that has certain fixed length entry fields. If the user types in an extra character in any of the fields the program freezes, it is necessary to kill the program, and all previous data entered is lost. I guess it was too much to expect the geniuses who wrote the program to foresee this possible user error and trap it in such a way that it would allow the program to continue. (And don't let me get started on Paradox.)
Tom
Well, let's just say that SOME of us actually think about those things. Those who don't have to keep re-issuing the SAME security patch over and over ... I'll leave it there. :)
I think that's beginning to scratch at the reasons why I became disinterested in computers (hardware and programming) one or two years ago except for an interest in them as just a hobby. That said, I do find it very useful to write code on those lovely little Hewlett Packard programmable RPN calculators to have them do various things and it makes the networked in cab computer systems on new subway cars interesting (and not something to be automatically complained about, railgeezer style).
-Robert King
This happened this morning on an R (R46)in the 60th St. tunnel southbound. No chance to get off though>G<.
We are zooming down into the tunnel, ears are poping when BAM the T/O grabs a lot of brake. Almost put people off their seat, then suddenly he lets go and ZOOM we are off. Seems the Red Signal wasn't turning Yellow (the timer at the bottom of the tunnel, right before you start to climb) fast enough for him.
Then after the IND split we are moving at a decent but not fast pace and we get the homeball (couldn't see the number) that shows diverging when you actualy are going straight. But anyway, it is RED Over Red and SLAM here come the brakes and this time people did slide on their seats. We stop inches before the yellow on the the third rail protection board (cab door is open with the yellow paddle and I walked up to look by this time) just as he gets Green over yellow.
This person needs Zman's primer on the 60th St. Tunnel!!
Now we crawl into the station, heck is the WD turned on yet??
I don't think so, it is still covered, guess he woke up.
I was just watching Law and Order and they sent to the Albant Station to talk to some guy. Well the station was all nice (looked like New Haven) and was clearly downtown. That's up with this? I thought that train service to the downtown station was discontinued and now the trais stop at some trailer out in Rensileer.
The "Albany Station" has been SUNY Central administration for at least 20 years that I know of and doesn't resemble a railroad station AT ALL any longer. The NYCentral station in Albany is now a BANK. SUNY is apparently paranoid and has removed all links to images from their sites to their SUNY Central Admin building but the former NYCentral station can be seen here:
http://ny.existingstations.com/archive/384.jpg
I doubt it would be Rensselaer ... not much of a station there yet, a small station house that's one story and looks more like a rural BUS station ... see it here:
http://www.cityusa.net/trainland/gallery2/pw2202.JPG
So it must have been one of those Hollyweird things, shot in Kankakkee. :)
The shoot L&O in the NYC area. It had to be a local station. It was brick and looked vaguely like New Haven, only darker red.
THIS must be the Ham Scam.
TV shows will use whatever they can for shooting locations. People outside of New York, and a great majority of TV watchers who are not also railfans, don't know or care that the location isn't what they say it is. Hoboken has stood in for Penn Station repeatedly, but they've also used Penn Station. PATH stands in for the subway, and would you believe that they only film in two office buildings, picking a side for its view? One of them is on Wall Street, the other near enough to Central Park that you can see it. Incidently, if it's a 'day' scene and the shades/blinds are drawn, it was filmed at night, even if you can see "sunlight" filtering in through the blinds. The bank of lights they use for that little trick is a monster.
-Hank
R-142s 6661-6665 are the latest cars to see delievery tonight. I caught this action from the street as the diesel pulled consist passed me on the El.
This marks a return for Car 6665, which hasn't been in East 180th Street Yard, since 1994. It's namesake, an R-17 Redbird, resided in dead storage for 6 years or so before being scrapped.
-Stef
R17 #6665 had a mate at 180th St too. I think the number was 6699. Watch for the new 6699 when R142s 6696-6700 arrive, should be soon.
That's right! But let's not forget about a car that survives today, but is not on Transit Property and ran with 6665 and 6699. 6688 has special meaning for me, being a survivor and residing in the state of Connecticut. I've worked on the car, and I've operated it. That's one Redbird that isn't going to the fishies.....
-Stef
Yup Redbird with a Trolley Pole!! 6688 to be in full primer this weekend (fingers crossed).
Stef, she kinda looks like a reversed Connecticut Co. Trolley with yellow doors and red sides >G<.
Man, I *wish* I could get the time out of here (fifth year without vacation time to spare) and help out ... you know me, I'm not all that fond of A division because of where my home was, but sure would like to be a part of bringing back the old ... saw a picture of 1689 and in that picture, looked like she could use some ceiling enamel ...
DAMN! Wish I could find some time ...
Yes, our R-9 could use some TLC inside ... nothing that has to be done right away, but there is always a little this and that that can be done ... to a subway lover it's very satisfying.
The bunch of mostly all thumbs members of the 3/4 Ton Crew have got a lot to be proud of with the way 6688 looks.
Mr t__:^)
I was glad to see the old gold leafed numbers with the border on the bulkheads - those were originally painted BY HAND on those cars ... OH the crafts the NYCTA has lost over the years that were all in house. Of course, many of the crafts still live on after all these years from the wheel shop to the motor shop, but nobody paints signage by hand there anymore. Pretty stuff.
I *heard* how that IRT car's coming along - nice of Stef to adopt that baby. I have nothing against IRT cars, it was the routes and the time it took to get out of the Bronx on them that kinda ruined the experience for me, not the equipment or the folks that worked the lines. However my own little soft spot is for the IND since I worked it, and rode it too. For me, the R9's were the raison d'être pour moi. They always were my favorites. If we EVER get some spare time, I'd be willing to scrape and do the roofline myself though I sure wouldn't want to see anything happen to those "decals" as part of the painting, so I understand that it's better off a bit peeled than damaged.
How are the breakers in 1689? Guessing from the quality of work that I've seen done, I would imagine the steel dust has been cleaned out of them and they don't provide that "Eeyow! Good morning, mister motor" touch on the front side that caused you to toss them with the same piece of wood you used to keep the cab door open a wee bit more than the issued "clamp" did. :)
Seriously, I'm DYING for any reason to be able to get over there and sit in the cab, even if it's just to drop in the wrench and start it charging without "movement" ... always loved those things when you woke them up in the morning on a dark layup track or yard. A genuine symphony starting up from "cold" and not too shabby when waking up with a new motorman in the terminal either. But from a cold start, they were wonderful.
And yeah, it's VERY obvious the hard work and loving care that Dougie, Stef and everybody else puts into those puppies ... it SHOWS.
Well thanks for showing interest. I've got the itch to be there, and I'm thinking of making a pilgrimage on my own to see the old gal in the coming week. It's nice to play Train Operator...
-Stef
Words cannot describe how MUCH I want to be able to hang out and do some work at Branford (or for that matter our nearby Kingston Trolley Museum) ... you guys in the city at least have somewhat of a chance since it's a simple matter of getting to GCT and then taking the new Haven line to within a cab/bus ride out to your toys ...
The wife and I run a software company out of the house up here in upstate New York selling internet privacy and security software. It's just the two of us since we had a national leader selected for the guidance of the economy who has not a CLUE. I won't bother with the political angle any further than saying we once had a thriving business selling software, were making money and most of all, had EMPLOYEES ... that meant that up until March of 2000, we had bucks (well, sorta) and could leave the "shop" to get away for a couple of days if we wanted to, leaving the company in the hands of those we hired and trusted in our brief absences.
From here, a trip to Branford means either taking Amtrak Empire to GCT and then trying to connect to NH ... either that OR drive through Springfield, MA on the Berkshire spur of the Tway and then down through HORRIBLY maintained roads via Hartford and Meriden ... ain't no "day trip" either way. So that'd cost bucks we ain't got and if we both came down, there'd be nobody here to take care of the whiners and customer service issues since it's just US now. And being an internet business, folks ain't willing to wait more than 24 hours for an answer to whatever has them bothered. No win here. Can't get away, this is a 24/7 gig. Nancy runs the place in the daytime, I'm here at night doing email and writing code. Just so's ya know what the world of running a business in upstate NY is like ... bottom line, no "free time" EVER.
BELIEVE me, the passion is there, the sense of duty to "earn one's cab time" is there, the respect for all everyone else at Branford, Shore Line and Kingston is there ... what isn't is time and money to be able to put what we do 24/7 down and just leave the damned house. If we let our customers down by not responding in an appropriate time frame, we're TOAST ... and this pretty much makes us prisoners, not being able to have any damned fun ... that's why I hang out here once I've got the email done and the code for the night written. And JUST before I turn into jelly, or in the late afternoon as I'm waking up, Subtalk is just the right amount of "don't be stupid in front of your customers" for me to at least be able to live vicariously.
But if the time existed, I can't paint worth a whiz, but I can replace carbon brushes, write code, wire up relays, solder, replace breakers, pull apart an electronics assembly and put it back together without any parts left over and clean contacts like there's no tomorrow. I could be VERY useful if only I had the time and bucks to contribute ... and THAT is the problem.
I have only the deepest respect for you guys that CAN get there! :)
Being a member of Seahore & Shoreline I get their newsletters that keeps me up on what's going on when I can't be there.
At Shoreline our newsletter is available to members on-line. You get to see the photos full size & in color, e.g. Ano-u-mouse came in fourth place in a photo contest with a shot from our highlevel platform of the Hi-V & R-9 coming back from a run down the line. The same shot could have been taken a number of places in the City, it was just great. There was another fantastic shot of a red hot rivit about to be installed in our New Orleans car ... in color you could see it's glow !
Mr t__:^)
Kev, I guarantee they wouldn't be able to pry you out of 1689's cab with a crowbar.:-) They'd have to surgically remove you. You'd be mumbling, "My train, my train, my train". Of course, you'd make sure it was signed up as a D. BTW, the side signs on 1689 do light up.
Heh. Actually, I wouldn't be such a problem. You forget, I DID this once upon a time. I got my yayas back in 1970 and 1971 ... unlike most "foamers," been there, done that, have nothing left to prove ... but it would STILL be nice to cop a sniff of the car, charge her up and just sit back and listen to it like an old vinyl record.
Cab time? That'd be nice but once you've done it, it's no big deal. It's just being able to walk the car, point and perhaps pull a lever. But I got over the "thrill" a long time ago on the rails. I'd just be happy cuddling up in one these days. That'd be plenty.
I can here the two of you yelling West Side Express ... watch the closing doors ... next stop 59th Street.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. Damned PA on most of the R9's ... well ... didn't work ... wasn't there, that's what the speakers on the platforms were for. Heh. At 59th, you were too busy making sure your platform conductor got you closed up and on your side, that the last door holder got to play "rock'em sock'em robots" ... Columbus Circle was something you just wanted to get in and out of, damn those holding lights ... that's one experience that'd be real hard to duplicate in a museum. :)
Holding lights? What holding lights? On Saturdays at 59th, an A train would be in and out in less than half a minute, since the middle platform wasn't being used. I'd scramble aboard as soon as the doors opened, and the conductor would close down perhaps 10 seconds later. Then the motorman would wrap it and we'd be off to the races up CPW. The AA was different. On those two Sundays in May of 1967 when we went to the Museum of Natural History, we were held at 59th for D trains.
Different story at rush hour, especially on the northbound ... the divine dance of the 53rd street tunnels - B dances with A, D dances with CC, let the games begin. And then sometimes, just for fun, it'd be CC with A, D waits for B northbound and of course the "what goes down the funnel next?" on the southbound leg. Invariably, we'd land with a B on the local southbound. Who went first? The B of course.
Weekends were boring but since I was an extra-extra-bench-warmer, I had weekends off. :)
Absolutely. I'm getting the itch to be there, so I may show up during the coming weeks, without or without company. I hope the car is in the shop?
-Stef
Did they actually get the silver and blue stripped off 6688?
GACK! Thank you for losing my lunch on that ... war between the states color scheme. YUCK. BURN IT!!! That's as unnatural as redbird paint on an R17 ... Ptoo ...
Perhaps Redbird Paint ain't fitting on an R-17, but the car certainly looked a lot better than her companions when the old timers were getting scrapped in the 80s, when there was suh a thing. In those days, no one was thinking of the cars swimming with the fishies....
-Stef
Heh. Wouldn't it be nice if someone made the gloss khaki of the originals? But it'd take an oven bake for it to set right.
It's all gone. Every last bit, from white to silver and blue to graffiti. Obliterated down to the bare metal. The interior is still intact though. We'll do some touch up on the inside.
-Stef
PROMISE me the innards won't be NYCTA "official pistachio puke green" ... YUCK. :)
I take it that goes for the original maroon, too.
Yes, even the Maroon. But never fear, the Maroon could return in a few years.
-Stef
Since the R-17s were delivered in maroon, it would be fitting to finish 6688 in that shade someday. In that same vein, you'd want to restore it to its original 1955 condition through and through, which may not be possible.
these things are coming in fast. today, riding the 2 line, it seems like every other train is an R-142. riding the 6, there is a bunch of new sets taking over the line. almost no r-62's or redbirds. new sets in the mid to high 7400 with interior alterations. very hard to spot if you don't have a good eye.
Aye! The face of the 6 Line is changing quite rapidly. The 2/5 are seeing a slow transition.
-Stef
If the face of the #6 is rapidly changing, either a) I haven't commuted for the last month (that will change, come last week of Aug.), or b) I have been unlucky enough to be getting on the #6 during a time frame where there either 'birds or R-62As rolling down the line (Note: I shouldn't say "unlucky," since the R-142As were made by Kawasaki.)
Last night/early this morning, i saw the diesel delivering R142As running through 225 street/white plains.
does anybody know whats up with the sets starting between 6351-6410 Bombardier? are they coming back?
6351-6360 are in test mode right now. I caught them coming out of the barn last night.
They're getting these R-142s in like crazy. Don't you think?
-Stef
There are four 10 car sets sitting in Lenox Yard. The only five car set Ive seen was 6386-90 signed up for the 6.
In Lenox? No wonder they have to store those 3s at the East! 239th St should be filled to the brim with 142s and Redbirds....
-Stef
yeah
And yet while working the 1 yesterday evening, there were Redbirds sitting on M track between Dyckman and 207St.
6521-25 and 6531-35 are running in service as of today.
-Stef
Let's throw another 5 cars into the fray, 6536-40, being delivered to the East as we speak...
-Stef
Has the new 6762 arrived yet?
Not yet.
Wasn't 7339 the prinicpal car used for the filming?
That car is rolling again.
-Stef
On my way to Coney Island after work, I saw a train of R-143's laid up on the Sea Beach Express tracks!! Strange looking cars indeed!! Gee, were they doing test runs for a future "NX" line?? And another thing, BRING BACK "N" via Bridge service PUHHLLEEZ......! BTW, the R-143's are planned for what line and when do they enter regular service?? Tony
>>Gee, were they doing test runs for a future "NX" line??<<
Nah, the Sea Beach express tracks are the standard test tracks for any new TA equipment. They probably weren't laid-up, but on a test drive.
>>BTW, the R-143's are planned for what line and when do they enter regular service??<<
1. the L line. For the 'x'illionth time. They are to recieve CBTC equipment and operate on the L.
2. They enter service at a future time. After they complete their tests.
> They are to recieve CBTC equipment and operate on the L.
But aren't the R-143 cars coming into service before CBTC is implemented?
- Lyle Goldman
That's why they are to receive them, and not have received them.
I saw them in CIY yesterday while I was going over it with my car on the Belt Parkway
Robert
YOU saw that FROM your car going HOW fast? :)
I was going about 25MPH becouse the trafick was moving slow, the train was move no more then 10MPG becouse of the yard speed limit.
Robert
> That's why they are to receive them, and not have received them.
Actually, what he said was, "They are to recieve CBTC equipment and operate on the L," implying that they are not going into service until the L line receives CBTC equipment. However, what I said was that I thought the R-143 cars were coming into service before CBTC is used. Thus, I was questioning whether the R-143's will actually debut on the L line, as he said.
- Lyle Goldman
According to what I have heard, they will debut on the "L" regardless of whether or not the CBTC installation has been made.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The CBTC installation will not be made until the line is 100% R-143.
That can't happen overnight.
Right. I guess the only question remaining in my mind is whether or not the original plan was for the CBTC equipment to be in place in advance of the new trains (so that it could be activated once they were all on the line) or whether it would be installed later.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From what I've heard from reliable sources here, the wiring and the space for the equipment is there, it just needs to be installed.
Thanks. That's all we wanted to know.
- Lyle Goldman
The Sea Beach has only one Express Track, from 7th Avenue to Kings Highway. The other track is badly warped and missing third rail in most sections.
N bridge service is not likely to happen until the North Side is finished. Then, I suspect we will have B,D serice on the A/B tracks, and N,Q service on the H tracks. What they SHOULD then do is send both M and R service through Montague to 95th Street.
I'd love to see the R-143s. I heard that the batch of trains that will be ordered for B division after the 143s, R-168s, I believe, will NOT be able to run on an automated line. I could be wrong.
My Site
Anyone know if the D-Types are going to make (or made in past tense) a trip to the Docks before the official 8/26 Trip?
An informal trip might be in order to make sure everything goes smooth.
-Stef
I'd like to know about it. Nothing out of the ordinary, I was just wandering where these cars were headed tonight. They came out of 239th St Yard and were transferred with R-33s to an unknown location. Just curious if they're heading into the chopping block at 207th St, or if they're in dead storage at Concourse. The R-33s returned later.
-Stef
Spotted these cars @ 96th Street on the Southbound Platform @ 12 midnight. Looks Like it was a deadhead, possibly to 207th Street.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
They are removing shells today at 207 St. 8654 was the first reef out, with 8655, 9544/45. The trucks are going out on a second barge bound for scrap yards. They are taking about 20 cars on the move, with immediate transfers out of Concourse Yard to follow to begin processing through the main shop. BTW, did you see that funny train outside Jackson Middle yesterday around 2:20 Stef?
???
What train are you referring to? Was the Redbird Signal Dolly on the move? I have to guess you were operating this oddball....
-Stef
How long did it take to do put the 20 Cars on the Barge?
A GO was issued and took a track out of the service?
Damn it! Did anyone get pics?
-Stef
Yesterday (8/15/01), I spotted a set of R-142 Subway Cars on the <5> @ Borough Hall Station. I was upstairs shooting some buses when I heard the loud roar of the HVAC units & R-142 Annoucements, FOR THE 5. I rushed down stairs just in enough time to see the last 2 cars take off signed up for "5 - Flatbush Avenue" & <5> on the last car, FULL OF PASSENGERS!!!!! Was not able to catch the car numbers based on being stunned, Full 5 Line announcements were made too!
"This is a Flatbush Avenue Bound 5 Express Train, The Next Stop is Nevins Street. Stand Clear Of The Closing Doors Please"
KEEP A LOOK OUT AS I THINK THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE R-142 INVASION ON THE LEXINGTON-BRONX THRU EXPRESS!!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Yes, I saw that same R-142 #5 train mentioned in that post as it was leaving 14th Street-Union Square around 6:30pm or so yesterday (Wednesday, August 15, 2001). I guess this is the beginning of the transformation for an eventual all-stainless steel car fleet for the IRT Division.
-William A. Padron
at last r142s on the 5
could it be the start of r142s on the 5
Who's got the numbers to that train. Bombardier's delievery of those cars has recently gotten into the high 6600s, and it won't be too long before the sidelined high 6300s and high 6400s go into service.
Time's running out for the R-33s.
i think the set on that line is 6621-6630
Yes like it or not the R142/142A's are taking over. The R142'S are already kings of the night time on the No.2+6 Lines. I was on the No.6 line Wednesday and they only had about 4 Redbirds in service that is down from 8 redbirds from 2 weeks ago. I say in less then a month the No.6 will be a Redbird free line. It funny at night seeing the R142A's light up Westchester YD.
Also now any Road Extra or Extra List T/O or C/R who is not R142 quilified can NOT work on the No.2+6 Lines they must call the Crew Office for a change in assignment and make a date for getting quilified on the R142's.
In case anyone is interested I saw one of them at about 1:50am at Ocean Parkway on the southbound express track, the consist was a single R127, flatcars and a borrowed set of R40 Slants off the "N" on the north end of the train.
There seems to be a problem with one or more of the work motors and R40/R32's are showing up.
Come by Kings Hwy on the Brighton every weekend morning you'll find the garbage train at around 5am as they all go downstairs to Dunkin Dounts.
"Come by Kings Hwy on the Brighton every weekend morning you'll find the garbage train at around 5am as they all go downstairs to Dunkin Dounts."
The have cops on a Garbage Train???
Elias
I see 'em all the time on the G line. Seems that with no stops, Crosstown line is the fastest way to get to CI from Queens Boulevard.
But, slants on the garbage train? Usually, I see one end with either EP007 or EP006 and the other end with some other R-127/134 car or 2 R-21's from the revenue collection train.
this all begs the question: will some of the old redbirds, or other cars, be kept around for trash, work or money train jobs?
I recall as a kid seeing a long string of battered cars used as a rail train on the brighton line. it had to be in the early 80's. the end doors were removed and some of the end walling as well , with the rail laid through the cars. anyone recall these? know what type they were, how long they saw such service, etc?
Saw them within the last year at Howard Beach, putting in a segment of welded rail between H.B. and the North Channel Bridge. I don't recall their vintage. I guess they were R/17 or 21s.
Maybe someone can give a better date and vintage.
avid
were they painted yellow?
when i saw them ages ago they, for the most part, looked like hell: broken windows, plenty of graffiti...
Yes, they were painted yellow. It was a very faded or pale yellow of aged MOW equipement. There was other equipement as well, gravel hoppers, diesels, flatcars , cranes. The whole nine yards. Some of them had nice crisp yellow paint, but the rail cars had a pale tired look to them.
avid.
There have been work trains laid up at Belmont Race track these past few weeks.
I spotted them on several of the tracks used for Race fan departure.
Saw a lot of cement ties still bundledon flats, gondolas and things I can't discribe. They were not Yellow, but black, brown freight stuff. I guess this is a temporary storage facility for ongoing tie and rail replacement.
Anyone got the skinney on this?
avid
About the time I travle home & go under that ROW I frequently see some equip. moves ... highrailers, diesels, etc.
Mr t__:^)
I am sure that, it is a safe bet to say, more than a few will be retained for work service.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's the Continuous Welded Rail train. It's still around.
i thought thats waht it mighta been... where do they yard that thing?
It's like a TA nomad. It's supposed to layover in Canarsie Yard, but more often than not it isn't there. I wouldn't be surprised if it was buried in 38 St Yard somewhere.
The two CWR sets reside at CI Yard as of this moment.
-Stef
how many cars compose these sketchy trains?
8 car linked sets. There are two of them, CCR01-08 and DCR01-08.
And there was also two other sets that were scrapped, no?
ACR and BCR01-08 were the other two, supposedly NY Cross Harbor had acquired one of the two sets. Or so that's what I heard and this was a few years ago. Perhaps it was a mere rumor floating around.
-Stef
I would assume so. It would make sense beacause of the lettering. I never saw them. Wonder if it was the same type of equipment? Maybe somebody has a picture?
I've seen the garbage train on the uptown 6th Avenue line late at night. The consist was some old red cars from the J train, a few flatcars, and more J train red cars at the rear. This was back in 1995; the consist may have changed since then.
Eyewitness News this morning reports that fifty Redbirds are being shipped to somewhere off the coast of Delaware where they will be dumped into the ocean to create an artificial reef. The report further states that up to four hundred Redbirds may share a similar fate once they are phased out over the next two years. What a way to go!
E_DOG
The only problem being that we’ll have to drive to Delaware to dive them, as NJ wouldn’t take any!
Did anyone see or know why there was a R110 on the express track of the Sea Beach line at 18th Ave yesterday? It was about 6:00PM when I saw it. The destination signs said "not in service" and it was parked with lights off. Sorry I didn't get the car #s. Is the N line getting the new cars? :)
They were the R143's not the R110B. The R110b look like thay are ready to be put back into serivce as a 9 car train. They were hooded togeather on Tuesday.
Robert
Who (which line) has first dibbs on the R110Bs?
avid
(Silent prayer} Oh Omnipotant dispatcher in the sky, hear my humble plea, Hark, hark, make the R110b a Rockaway Park!
avid
>>Omnipotant dispatcher in the sky, hear my humble plea, Hark, hark, make the R110b a Rockaway Park!<<
Well, considering that Robert identified it as a full length train, I'd have to say the "A", although someone has said it cannot operate as such.
The funny thing I forget to put in was that one of the head car has a Orange "A" on the front of it.
Robert
Uh-oh. I see another major re-route coming on....
Perhaps it will run 6th ave from w4th to 59th, or 6th ave Jay st to 59th.
avid
The cars probably have signs for extra line colors that won't be used.
If anyone knows all the readings on that rollsign, I'd greatly appreciate it.
I saw it scroll once, and from what I remember, it was the basic lines, plus the orange A and gray K. I forgot whether it had diamond versions of the lines, and I forgot the exact order. It may be alphabetical. I do know that on at least one of the sets, the signs have destinations below the route bullet, so you have Far
Rockaway
Lefferts Blvd
(PS. If the bullets don't come out, I find that if you open up his site and then come back, then they will appear. The same on my Line History page)
It did before its maintainence shrinkage. The R110 boards are still mounted along the "A" route.
What would prohibit the R110bs now and not before?
avid
Not possible, as one 3 car set has been cannibalized for use as spare parts after it caught fire a few years back. Only 6 R110B's will ever run again.
The TA have been putting back together the 3 cars that were cannibalized after the fire. So I geuss that they are now fully vack together.
Robert
When did this start? I was under the impression the 3 sacrificed cars would never be able to run again.
Couple of months back, IIRC. Another poster with access to the shops reported it here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, they were moving under their own power about 2 months ago.
Now that they have been put back together in their 9 car set, anyone know when and what line they will be running on?
I think it will run on either the a or d
That's nice and all about the R110... but can someone tell me why the trainset was there?
Probably for testing purposes.
I'm wondering if the same set is being seen by several witnesses and being I.D.ed as two different perps?
they have a slight resembance to each other. The witnesses admit to be moving and having short duration glimpses.
Do we have mistaken identies here?
avid
We should start getting N U M B E R S...
avid
All 9 of the R110B are still at 207yard as of Wensday 8/15/01. I saw all 8 of the R143's moving in Coney Island Yard on Wensday 8/15/01 some hours later. I could tell the different just buy the looks of them. So for all the other that have seen the R143's on the See Beach Line over the last few day. There is one thing A can say about the See Beach Line testing is, that City bound is alot faster the to Coney Island Bound. Coney Island bound has timer all the way down the line, and with the signal so far apart (sometimes 2000ft) you can't go to fast becouse you don't know if the other one cleared yet.
Robert
I think witnesses are telling the truth because at one time the train could be not moving, and at another time, the train could be moving. :) I know when i saw it... just a little before 6:00PM on 8/15/01 it wasn't moving.
In the end, why did the MTA reassemble the R110b? It has just sat in the 207th street yard for three years now.
-Julian
Bill "Newkirk"
I'd personally like to bring them out on a fantrip. If the mothballs aren't going away, ever, is there a place I can find sounds of the R110 (ie, doorchimes, auto announcements, etc...)?
-Julian
"I was told by Trevor Logan that all 9 cars are once again ready for service. He says that they will be brought out for the centennial and run on the A on that day. Trevor IS a credible source, and I trust him on this subject."
-Julian
-Julian
However, I don't remember the doorchime =( I heard (no pun intended) it was unusual:
"-New sounds when the doors close (probably due to new ADA regulations). There is a "Ding-Dong" and an announcement before the doors close, followed by "BEE-bee-BEE-bee-BEE-bee..." as the doors are closing."
Taken from http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r110faq.html
-Julian
The R-110A was the first IRT car since the old Hi-Vs without center doors to have front/back facing seats.
I would like to know were the trip to Nework to ride the PCC's is going to start. My wife said that i can go. (Yes I know it look like she tell me what to do, but we were going to go away but that fell though.) So please E-mail me or post the info her. I will be wearing on TA T/O shirt during this trip.
Robert
Check the Upcoming Events for details.
Thanks Dave. I shoud have know the info was there in the first place.
Robert
Robert, Did you also see what else is listed there ?
So much to do, so little time !
Mr t__:^)
Yes I saw the rest of the listing. I with a could go to Chicago,but work come first. It is also to late for me to put in for any days off.
Robert
Some of us who were amoung the first to talk to David about his trip feel realy bad we can't go ... but things are making it impossible for us ... that doesn't dimish our hope that those that are able to go shouldn't have a great time ... speaking from personal experience, Dave is a marvelous host, so enjoy if you can.
Mr t__:^)
Keep 'em Open
Shut 'em Down
Peace,
ANDEE
I read both in the paper on the way to work (on the subway, of course).
Both have interesting arguements but I would challenge the TWU to refute (with written facts not speculation) everything that Reuter said (to which he and NYCT should be held to since it is in writing).
I'll bet you they couldn't.
>>Both have interesting arguements but I would challenge the TWU to refute (with written facts not speculation) everything that Reuter said (to which he and NYCT should be held to since it is in writing).<<
The TWU was involved in neither article. Except when Reuter mentions that a deal was worked out between the TA and TWU.
Further, the counterpoint presented in the article (why to keep booths open) has no facts that refute anything Reuter said. Reuter says that agents will begin roving the platforms instead of sitting in booths. People refute it by saying that we need to keep agents around because they would feel safer. Sounds kinda dumb.
I'm not saying that Reuter speaks the truth; some jobs will probably be cut from the TA budget. But the other writer was a moron. They used Grand St. as an example. First off they said Grand St. was closed which is untrue, and then they make it seem like the TA was in control of that situation. We know that was DOT, not MTA. Fianlly, they paint Pataki as some sort of contriving fox that is looking out of the interests of the MTA only. Think back to the whole episode with the G train, and you'll see that that portrait is a terrible one.
I'm not siding with Reuter. He's done some pretty blatant things in the past. Will that 'roving clerck' plan be implemented? I haven't the slightest clue. But the writer of the other opinion needed to get their facts straight. Without that, you just look foolish.
Exactly the point I am trying to make. There has been a lot of talk pro and con about the Token Booth issue.
If what Larry Reuter (as TA President) put in print can be accepted as factual, it then must be unless refuted by someone with other facts (in writing). At which point the 2 parties can argue out which one has the wrong facts.
- my opinion (whether you ask or not) - I agree at some point in the near future the need for Token booth "clerks" will be significantly reduced. I also see the advantage of having them out of the booths to be "Station Agents". What I think the people involved are so secure in their "glass bowls" that they are afraid to meet the public face to face (considering how a few of them deal with the public I can see why).
It is going to happen one way or another - the best thing is for the parties involved to work out what is best for ther riding public.
That's my opinion (I'll be taking my meds now)
The primary responsibility of the station agent in the token booth era was essentially as a cashier. If you were friendly and helpful, all the better -- but you'd better have your balance correct at the end of the day.
In the new station agent era, the primary responsiblity will be customer relations -- which requires more of the people skills and less of the till-balancing skills.
If I'm recalling correctly, no station agents will lose their jobs because of the change, although positions may eventually be eliminated through attrition.
That being said, many of the station agents probably feel as though they are losing their job because they are being pushed into something they had never intended to do. So they're stuck with either a job they don't enjoy (and may not be as good at) or going out and looking for a new job (which must be quite devastating when you're coming from the TWU/TA mentality where seniority is king).
When you consider it from the individual's point of view it's sad, but as a society, you can't keep manufacturing buggy whips because it makes some people feel good. In the private sector, the displaced employees would probably be sent off with some kind of severance package, but it seems that in the TWU/TA world it's live by the sword/die by the sword.
CG
>When you consider it from the individual's point of view it's sad, >but as a society, you can't keep manufacturing buggy whips because >it makes some people feel good.
I bet you are not a redbird fan.
You hit it on the head with the seniority issue. Let's take a busy station the really does need 2 agents for the rush. Before after 10AM it was a cool job and one of them could kick back, now that person will have to walk the platform helping the tourists with information and such. Basically what platform conductors do. Broadbanding is the enemy of the union.
Some agents pick midnights in the far reaches of the system so they can sleep, lets face it a lot of these guys snooze but now you can't relax in your refrigerated box, you have to walk around in this heat.
All of the big high rise buildings have a security/fire control station in the lobby, with people and monitors. Does not a subway station with thousands of people passing through it each hour need the same sort of supervision?
The station agent gets his office by the turnstiles, with a nice (but barred window) facing the sidewalk zone. On the fare side there is a counter, over which he/she may give directions or give other assistance. In an area adjoining the office are some nice waiting room chairs (if said station needs such chairs 2' to the levels of service at given hours.
New (modular) restrooms may be brought in and placed in this area, and some space may be rented out to vendors of some sort. (Boy I remember a nice stop on the Lexington where they made FRESH cake donuts all day long.) Now you can't even buy a pretzel (how sterile and barbaric).
The monitors behind the agent, showing all areas of the station are plainly visible to all who enter. Clean... Secure... the agents would no longer handle money, but are responsible for their stations. Yes it is a shift from counting and pushing tokens through the window, but I think it meets the goals of today's subway.
Elias
All of the big high rise buildings have a security/fire control station in the lobby, with people and monitors.
No they don't. (Think apartment buildings.)
>>> The monitors behind the agent, showing all areas of the station are plainly visible to all who enter. Clean... Secure... the agents would no longer handle money, but are responsible for their stations. Yes it is a shift from counting and pushing tokens through the window, but I think it meets the goals of today's subway. <<<
This sounds real good, but is a full time agent necessary 24-7 in small neighborhood stations which may see 10-15 customers per hour?
Tom
Try 10-15 in a four hour period in some places
The master towers have camera of faraway stations try the police handling the monitoring of platforms and stairwells and a virtual SA handling several stations at night remotely.
Let me get this straight. As a subway rider, I should pay people to sleep on the job, and I should be on their side when their boss wants to wake them up?
>>>...lets face it a lot of these guys snooze but now you can't relax in your refrigerated box, you have to walk around in this heat.<<<
This is thereal reason I feel that most (not all) SAs are against the implematation of the closing of the station booths.
Peace,
ANDEE
[That being said, many of the station agents probably feel as though they are losing their job because they are being pushed into something they had never intended to do.]
1. But the TWU negoticated a deal for them, so it's too late to say, nah I don't want to do that.
2. They are getting $1 per hour more in light of the expanded scope of their job (I'm sure the TA didn't originally offer that).
3. They are union boys & girls ... so bid on a posted opening if you don't want to do customer service.
4. It's a good paying job, and no body is going to end up in the street unless they walk away from it.
5. The TWU should hold Larry to his "service" remarks when he trys to make a further cost saving down the road (yes Larry & the top brass knows this is going to save them some money ... is probally in their master plan as how the MVMs are being paid for).
Mr t__:^)
If... The plan is to have more agents on the platforms, and to continue to have stations manned around the clock, new open kiosks ought to be provided for these agents. It is very difficult to get directions from an agent who is locked in a booth.
With today's technology, there is no need for agents to be in armoured fire-proof booths, for there is no need for them to handle money. If someone needs change, there is a change machine. If they need help obtaing a MetroCard or a token, the agent can help them, but all of the accounting, all of the money is locked away in armoured machines.
"They say" that these extra agents will wander around the station, but I do not think that they should, for how would any one find them then? There should be a well lit information kiosk and waiting room area at each station's main entry point, the agent should be able to help peole on either side of the collection point, heck, maybe even rent out space to news vendors. The more people in these areas the safer they will be.
Elias
["They say" that these extra agents will wander around the station, but I do not think that they should, or how would any one find them then? There should be a well lit information kiosk and waiting room
area at each station's main entry point ...]
Good point, the TA needs to give them something to do or they will "wander" away ... to some place where they can take a nap.
Mr t__:^)
Perhaps a ... BOOTH ... where you can get tokens and directions to the trains ... nah, it'd never work.
No No No.... NOT a BOOTH.
More like a well lit parlour, with places for people to sit at night, maybe with vending machines, or a newsstand. A uniformed TA agent on duty, to help with directions, jammed machines, maybe even with *clean-well-lit RESTROOMS* (WOW.... Hight Class!)
Behind the agent's desk monitors showing the platforms. Every one will be able to see all of the platforms as the enter and know that they will be seen if they commit a criminal act.
Elias
Uh yeah, and the transit fairy will find you a SEAT. At rush hour. :)
Sure sounds good and all, but it must be some modern change. When you walked to a token booth BEFORE the plexiglass, you could ask "does this train get me to Broadway?" and the person behind the jailbars would tell you, "change for the QB at 34th" and once you saw you were at "34th" you could find someone on the platform wearing a monkey suit who would point at a stairway to the Q train.
I can't believe things have deteriorated so that this isn't possible today ... back when I left the city, there weren't "farecards" and so that poor schlump in the cage who slid the tokens under the jailbars could be talked to ... no plexiglass and gooseneck microphone ... you'd say ... "how do I get to 56th and Lex" and they'd tell you, "take this train to Times Square, go upstairs and take the shuttle, then catch the uptown local for one stop and you're there."
And crimminy! They gave change and tokens too!
I guess we'll have to wait for Microsoft to add THIS feature, huh?
That ended when they started robbing booths by setting them on fire.
These booths are fire resistant and have halon extinguishers
I've worked with HALON ... if it's in use, I QUIT ... Halon (a variation of FREON) is COMPLETELY DEADLY TOXIC TO HUMANS ... it works by replacing all oxygen with hydrocarbons, snuffing the fire AND THE HUMANS by removing anything to breathe ... a halon dump is "CPR procedure, assuming you've found some air for the victom of a halon dump to breathe ...
YIPE!
(and yes, I remember Fox getting blamed for something that was already happening) ... still ... there used to be uniformed officers on most platforms once upon a time ... oh yeah, keep the fare low, a nickel should last until 2000 ... whoops. But those booths should have had a "partner" ... further "HUH?!?!?" about the question of TBA's from having to come out of the booth at all ... shouldn't these "customer service greeters" be uniformed and issued SIDEARMS?
Think about it won't you all you "station agents?" Automatic promotion into NYPD with salary and benefits to match? Only fair given the job risks and job responsibilities ... talk about "out of title?" Oh where oh where is the TWU? Whoops, I remember now. :)
Halon extinguishers are too dangerous, esp in such a closed environment. Besides, they are now illeagal, (at least for small portables) and cannot be refilled.
Elias
If the agent doesn't have any money or tokens, then they can't very well rob him. I mean, even in the toughest neighborhoods, they don't bother to rob bus drivers, do they? They go where the money is.
And a high powered sprikler system that dispenses anti septic and a giant blow dryer so when the homeless move in to this area the agent can give them a bath and they won't stink.
Fine, and let's conveniently put the booths outside fare control, so nobody who's already entered the system will be able to ask questions without risking having to pay another fare.
I think Reuter makes the point moderately well. The point is there is an actual productivity gain -- station clerks used to have to sell tokens, now they don't, so they aren't needed.
The benefits are being divided three ways. Some positions are eliminated -- lower taxes/fares. Other clerks move out into the station instead of hiding in the booth -- service improvment. And those clerks (station agents) get somewhat higher wages. Job reductions will be by attrition. So what's the problem?
Evidently, the TWU likes productivity gains in other industries, so its members can have a higher standard of living by paying less for more when they shop. But doesn't like productivity gains in transit, so straphangers and taxpayers can pay much more for somewhat more, or the same for less.
That is not a fair point of view. If you think it is fair to oppose rising productivity (and therefore lower employment) in transit, then you must think that rising productivity in agriculture over the past 100 years is also unfair, and you should be paying half of you income just for food as people 100 years ago did. Now it's about 14 percent. If you believe that eaters were shortchanged by job cuts in farming, feel free to donate 36 percent of your income to charity to avoid taking advantage of other people's productivity gains.
I think Reuter makes the point moderately well. The point is there is an actual productivity gain -- station clerks used to have to sell tokens, now they don't, so they aren't needed.
The benefits are being divided three ways. Some positions are eliminated -- lower taxes/fares. Other clerks move out into the station instead of hiding in the booth -- service improvment. And those clerks (station agents) get somewhat higher wages. Job reductions will be by attrition. So what's the problem?
I wish the union would realize just how well off they are. If a similar situation took place in any private industry, the reductions most assuredly would not be by attrition.
"then you must think that rising productivity in agriculture over the past 100 years is also unfair, and you should be paying half of you income just for food as people 100 years ago did. "
Oh Oh.... Now *that* is a hot button out here. Sure the farmers are more productive, but they get nowhere near enough money for thier crops. Frequently not covering the coust of production (hense more gvt. subsidies). But farmers out here are workoholics, and like others wanting to get ahead, the plant more and more more efficently, drving prices down even more! The problem lies in that farmers cannot set prices, but sell crops at auction. Big conglomerates do the only buying and bid way too low.
So while you are eating your Wheaties this morning, please remember that Tiger Woods gets much more for having his picture *on* the box than the farmers earn for what is *in* the box!
Elias
BTW to stay on topic: Wheat is transported by Shuttle Trains between big elevators and the big milling or exporting terminals, which happens to drive the local elevators out of business because of a shortage of railcars.
HMmmmmm... maybe the Redbirds could be converted for GRAIN TRANSPORT?
In the whole debate over station agents (redeploy outside the booth? keep in the booth? at all costs?), I must call a time-out and ask a Very Stupid Question:
What about PATH?
To the best of my knowledge, PATH has NEVER staffed its stations for fare sales or information. Why has NOBODY been willing to admit this publicly? Where is the "outrage"? Why no complaints from the politicians and the Straphangers Campaign - couldn't they use the free publicity?
What about PATH? Well, I'll tell ya.
Until the early 1970's PATH also had token booths (yes there were tokens). When they changed the turnstiles and went to an all cash system, the booths were closed.
You have to remember that PATH is a small system (only 13 stations).
How do they prevent people from jumping the turnstiles? - they don't except at stations where they have cameras - someone jumps the turnstile and the PA police might get them a couple of stations later.
How much money is lost by this no one knows - the PA doesn't care. After all they are getting the profits from the NYC airports to offset it.
Never compare PATH to the NYC Subway. It just can't compare.
You have to remember that PATH is a small system (only 13 stations).
How do they prevent people from jumping the turnstiles? - they don't except at stations where they have cameras - someone jumps the turnstile and the PA police might get them a couple of stations later.
How much money is lost by this no one knows - the PA doesn't care. After all they are getting the profits from the NYC airports to offset it.
And how is the NYC system any more effective? Station agents don't rush out of their booths to tackle turnstile jumpers. All they can do is yell "Pay your fare!" over the intercom, in the hopes that there's a police officer in the station. If there's no cop in the station, as is of course usually the case, the jumper's chances of getting caught are about equal to the chances that JDS Uniphase or Lucent will turn a profit.
I can't see how PATH's system is any worse. At least they have a videotaped record of the turnstile jumper.
There's another thing that has to be noted:
Even if the station agents do somehow deter fare evasion, would the TA lose so much from that fare evasion so as to justify the cost of keeping the agent? NO.
Keeping the agent to prevent fare evasion is penny wise, pound foolish.
To the best of my knowledge, PATH has NEVER staffed its stations for fare sales or information.
There are agents at various stations during the rush hours. In addition, you can reach one 24 x 7 from any of the information phones, where they can see you via TV cameras, page you over the PA system, and let you into the system remotely. There is also police and (at the WTC) local security coverage.
The agent schedule (from the PA web site) is:
If you have questions or need a replacement QuickCard, please see a red-jacketed Passenger Information Agent, who can find out the remaining value of your QuickCard and issue a replacement on-the-spot. Agents are available at Newark, Hoboken, Journal Square and Grove Street* stations weekdays during the morning peak and at the World Trade Center, 33rd Street and Exchange Place stations weeknights during the evening peak. Agents are also available PATHursday mornings at the World Trade Center station.
*Agent is not available Thursday mornings at Grove Street station.
Article about the first redbirds going under. It also appears that they have stolen a picture from this site.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's one of Chao-Hwa Chen's photos. They could have stolen it directly from his own site ;-)
Another distinct possibility. You think a big company like Infinity Broadcasting could throw a few bucks his way?
Peace,
ANDEE
Could they? Sure. But I guarantee you they didn't even ask. I've never been paid for anything taken from this website... If they even ask, it's always "Can we use it" not "We'll pay to use it". If you press the issue they have three options: Pay for it and use it. Don't pay and don't use it. Or use it anyway and see who's lawyers have better retainers. What's the small web-site-operator to do?
In this case, Chao-Hwa actually has legal standing. I just spoke to our in-house intellectual property guy, he says they MUST pay for usage, and if they delete/remove/falsify/don't replicate credit (in this case the giant 1010 WINS logo makes a claim to them having created the photo) when it is available and known (and it is) the Digital Millenium Copyright Act provides both civil penalties and entitles the rightsholder to damages. SERIOUS money. You should IMMEDIATELY find a lawyer, save the page and any other related stuff you can (they've used this photo before!) and file a claim.
-Hank
I wasn't disputing the fact that he had legal standing. Legal standing doesn't mean that he has time or money to p**s away on fighting someone like a big corporation. I'm not saying it's right to "let them get away with it". But if I had to take the time and front legal fee costs up front for each of these offenses there wouldn't be a web site for me to defend.
Well it's not up to you in this case. From what I understand of the copyright info I was givin, it boils down to Chao-Hwa having given you permission to use his photo as you see fit without charge on this site. YOU don't have any authority to allow those photos to be used for any other purpose; however, Chao-Hwa has these rights. It's up to him to do something about it. It all boils down to not giving the proper credit and not getting permission of the artist.
Of course, you're technically a publisher, so if you were selling access to the site, you would likely have recourse.
-Hank
Who said it was up to me? I'm not telling Chao-Hwa or anyone else not to pursue their rights. I'm saying if it were my photograph I'd probably write a nastygram and let it drop. In this case the nastygram has already been written (by me; I have some responsibility because if I said nothing, who'd contribute to the site any more?) And although I don't ask the permission of my contributors to speak on their behalf when someone wants to use their photos, were I to secure that permission in advance of course I'd have the authority to allow photos to be used for other purposes. I'm not sure that the fact that the site is free means I can't act on infringing uses of my contributors. The problem with the site being free is that there is no way to claim that the infringement is causing actual damages.
[It all boils down to not giving the proper credit and not getting permission of the artist.]
To me if the person who copied the photos can't even do that we all should have a problem with him. If he makes money off the photo, then we have a whole different problem.
I for one make an effort to mention it when I copy a photo, even for just my personal use ... it's the right thing to do.
Recently one of my friends at Shoreline sent a bunch of us a funny photo, I used it in some e-mail to some other friends & gave him credit for it ... most probally didn't know who he was.
Mr t__:^)
I'd say (knowing copyright law and all and having worked in broadcasting) that "fair use" does *NOT* apply here since not only did they lift a photo without credit (arguable) but they THEN went the extra step and EMBLAZONED THEIR LOGO ON the purloined work, which by the way provides THEM with the copyright on the photo as a result of modifying it with their corporate identity and could thus turn around and sue SUBTALK for using THEIR "copyrighted work containing their logo" ...
WINS deserves a genuine bitch-slapping for this no matter from where it comes ... this is downright piracy given that they logo'd it.
THinking Chao-Hwa could pursue the issue in Small Claims court. Daily News paid me $150 for the one-time use of my photo. If he submits the claim and evidence properly, they'll probably send him a check.
Hell, just send them a letter certified mail requesting payment. That should suffice to get them to pay for it, as long as you keep it modest.
-Hank
That blue sky sure looks PHOTOSHOP-ped...
Andee these are captialist thieves. You except them to fork over a few measly bucks to a railfan?
You'd more likely get piss-water in your face just for asking.
BMTman
Dave, after you fetched my photos from my site, I deleted all my R142A photos on my site. So there is no R142As photo on my own site now. They must have stolen the photo here.
Chaohwa
Oh. Well that's not a first. I'll write them a nastygram but I don't have any lawyers.
What about a friendly little letter to competitive news organizations indicating that 1010 WINS by cheating?
--Mark
Show me a competing news organization that hasn't done the same in the past and it might be worth it. ;-)
Gotta get one not owned by or associated with Infinity.
-Hank
>>>Gotta get one not owned by or associated with Infinity. <<<
Now THAT'S difficult. Considering they even own their major competitior.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Gotta get one not owned by or associated with Infinity. <<<
Now THAT'S difficult. Considering they even own their major competitior.
Consider that a courtesy of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. ever since, many major broadcasters have been getting eaten up by even bigger ones.
>>>Consider that a courtesy of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. ever since, many major broadcasters have been getting eaten up by even bigger ones.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<<<
Yeah, sad isn't it?
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, this is also a beneficiary of that act...
-Hank
Yes, I suppose it could be.
Peace,
ANDEE
Capitalism at its finest. Not to upset the capitalist out there, who are so sure Marx was an idiot and the fall of the USSR proves it, but he said that capitalism would pass into monopolistic capitalism before the final battle and victory of socialism. So I still have faith, his words are coming truer every day, with every power grab by Bill Gates and his flunkys, we are closer to the final battle and victory of socialism.
Before we get way off topic here, let me say that I'm forced to agree with you, even though there is too much human desire in this world for socialism to work.
Thank you for you reply. I appreciate it when a person at least spends a moment to think about matters such as these. In the VAST majority of situation, when the word socialism (or heaven forbid - communism) is mentioned, peoplein this country tend to have a knee jerk reaction condeming communism. I'm not blind, there were many many problems with the system as practiced in the USSR (and if one is honest there are many many problems with the social system practiced in this country), but there were a lot of positives also. But to keep this from becoming a long off topic post, I'll leave it at that.
And wish our fellow subtalker(s) well if they choose to persue any legal remidies for copyright infringment.
Bill/Piggo
Maybe it is time that you put Copyright (your name) on each photo you post. That might be the only way to deter things like this (it won't prevent it but at least you might get some credit).
I do that with mine. My name and at least the year always goes on the image. Of course, nothing stops someone from obscuring or cropping the image to eliminate it. This happened to me once, and when the site owner didn't correct his error, his host deleted the page.
-Hank
Son ladrones y cabrones.
Manténgase este sitio en inglés, por favor.
Danke schön.
"" no bueno "" .....lol!!
¿Que?
anyone know how much it'd cost on average to get a lawyer for a stolen copyright case?
despite the hassles, i think i'd be inclined to go after them, out of principal if nothing more.
<< anyone know how much it'd cost on average to get a lawyer for a stolen copyright case? >>
Unless 1010 rolls over right away you're looking at a minimum of $10,000.
You could try to go after them "Pro Se", that is without a lawyer. I've done it more than a few times (not copywrite matters) and have won a case before the appeals court. It takes time, but the clerks you deal with are usually quite helpful and will basically direct you through the maze that is the legal system. Then is it up to you to make a coherent case and it seem like you have one.
Bill/Piggo
Better yet, go to Small Claims Court. It's set up to work on your own (without a lawyer). Sure, the amount you can collect is limited, but it causes major grief for the defendant and so they're likely to settle.
...now all i need is someone to take to court! hehe!
...it wasn't my photos, though i suspect someday someone might want to swipe one or two of mine, so i figure it's always good to be a bit prepared.
you'd think a wealthy company like infinity would just ligitimately acquire photos they need... then again, nothing someof the companies do these days should be much of a surpirse.
Ah.Finally theredbirds are going to the blimey deep.
"Ah.Finally theredbirds are going to the blimey deep."
You mean, "To Davey Jones' Locker."
Does anybody know how much of each car goes underwater. Would MTA be stripping the trucks, electric motors, resistor grids etc. off the cars to recycle the metal and other parts before sinking them?
Does anybody know how much of each car goes underwater. Would MTA be stripping the trucks, electric motors, resistor grids etc. off the cars to recycle the metal and other parts before sinking them?
See message 247889.
A representative of 1010-WINS informs me that the picture has been removed from the site with their apologies. (The reason they gave me is that they thought this was the MTA site and therefore as a public agency the photos were in the public domain. I won't even begin to point out the flaws in that logic...)
Heh. I had a feeling when I pointed out EXACTLY where they went wrong legally, that SOMEONE there would have looked at the thread and went "Oh SHEEY!" when they realized what they had done.
NOW Dave old buddy (with my apologies for the cooperation in "tagging the site" the other night with what might have passed as humor by some and looked down upon by many - my most PROFUSE apologies for taking part but it seemed like fun to me at the time) ... the "injury" inflicted by WINS in that "illegal taking" should be put to some use by yours truly while they still REMEMBER what they did ...
At your discretion, you should ask them to do a story on this site if you want them to, OR you should ask them to contribute to the site financially to help pay some of your bandwidth bill in exchange for your permission where appropraite to BE a "resource" to their web site when they contact you and clea the permissions first ... either way you cut it, they *****DO***** owe you something for their transgressions, and in the broadcast industry "trade-offs" at no cost to either party are the "accepted practice."
For krissakes, GET SOMETHING out of this for your own benefit or at your option, for the site ... they ACKNOWLEDGED that they screwed up and free publicity costs nothing more than a few seconds of airtime.
Well first off I doubt anyone there saw this thread- I pointed the error of their ways out to them in email yesterday. And as for some free publicity, the site is already doing double the bandwidth that I originally told our new hosts that it would be doing. (I guess that happens when you add a second machine and connect them to a network serviced by three OC-3's). Any press that the site receives only makes it worse :-) I'll let Chao-Hwa decide if he wants to pursue it, it was his work infringed upon.
You and I think similarly ... "what is this freebie going to suck out of my own life (and monthy bill)?" Heh. Well, up to you for the goodwill as well and yeah, given what I do for a living, I FULLY understand your sitch (not to mention having been an old fashioned SYSOP back in the 80's and 90's - YOU know what that means, modem pools and all) ...
But yeah, they screwed up and they know it. As we say here up in guernsey country, know WHAT to pull and when ... if your motivation was publicity, "BING-BONG! Watch the closing doors" ... if not, then chalk it up to a pyrrhic victory. Hey, done this myself too ... played both the "this is fun" and "this is my JOB!" sides of it.
But they ADMITTED IT! (power to be used and not abused, moo.)
Thanks Dave for the effort. Since it is resolved, I will not do further actions.
Chaohwa
Gotta hand it to Chao-Hwa,
that was some NIFTY photo composition.
Its very interesting how You clearly point out "THIS SITE IS NOT RUN BY THE MTA", also, did not you say that pivture belongs on someone elses site? If so, why did they ask you? You probably seem to represent the New York "railfan" community
The point was that they didn't ASK anyone.
The photo in question was taken by Chao-Hwa Chen, I thought it might have also been on his web site but he said that after he gave them to me he took them down from his pages.
I understand. Thank You
In PIRMANN We Trust!!
....Tho I'da been there to video it if we were
to have WINS 'sit on a horse wearing women's
lingerie during rush hour'.... (a wee too much
Tough Enough for me, I suppose)
Got a freind of my Dad's who I'm going to attempt to talk into diving on them for some pictures....who knows.
-Hank
good luck
I’ll probably be there diving on them by the end of the year. It’s just the drive to Delaware that’s the pain!
John
shoud mta go with kawasake or bambarde i think kawasake
by .At aka .ff
Please pardon his misspelling as he is a child.
Thank You
Trevor Logan
Reading his post, I suddenly got the urge for some Japanese Rice Wine.
I would agree. Kaswasaki seems to have a better handle on how to work with the MTA's specifications.
I must have missed the posts about this. I never really payed close attention to the movie as a railfan until today. First Question. Paterson was a Superintendent wasn't he? Can Superintendents talk to Motormen that way? That aint right. Also, the Money Train that they used, how do u operate that thing?? It looks like the usual smee equipment, but the brake valve looked alot different. Also, Once they bled the air off the brakes, how were they talking about stopping when they were ramming the 1220 B to Coney island? They were like we gotta stop or we will derail them. The Train can't charge again once the air has been bled off right? After all the deadman or whatever that thing was, it was stuck.
They stopped the train but instantly setting the train into reverse which caused the train to flip back and do a couple of flips knocking everything in it's path making Patterson jaw drop and the contractors happy at how much they will get paid to repair the damages. Patterson was a person who was a control freak, he was the person who monitored the system and looked at the track board. Head of the train control center. He can't talk to the motormen like that but for a movie you need a bad guy right? The Money Train is a modified R-21 it can really run in the New York Subway System. I wanna ride it. I wanna buy it.
"...which caused the train to flip back and do a couple of flips knocking everything in it's path making Patterson jaw drop and the contractors happy at how much they will get paid to repair the damages."
And my short response is that it's just Hollywood.
In reality: subway car versus vertical steel H beams? H beams in 11.
Yes, there would still be a lot of structural damage to the tunnel, but if I recall the movie correctly, the money train just rolled down the 4 track ROW knocking over the beams like bowling pins. I haven't seen it in a while, so forgive me if that scene is inaccurate. What would have really happened? The car would have eventually been torn to shreds by any vertical obstructions.
For what I paid at Blockbuster, I could have had at least two actual subway rides. They would have been far more enlightening. What a disappointing movie,
MATT-2AV
That scene was as nonsensical as the rest of the movie.
Not too long ago, a SEPTA subway train (the old Almond Joys) slammed sideways into a pillar. The subway car was cut in half.
Subway vs. pillar, the pillar wins with the first punch. It's not even a contest (and it can't be, or the tunnels wouldn't be safe to ride in).
You're absolutely right as usual Ron!
MATT-2AV
Not if the pillars sustained some serious corrosion...and were in need of replacing anyway...
They were playing on the premise that this car was so indestructible that nothing could even slow it down. The thing that struck me odd was that if these beams were to break, wouldn't the tunnel cave in?
Yes, and if the car were that "indestructible," the ground underneath it would probably cave in from its weight.
That's a very good point.
I've often tried to find out what live loading can be applied to the tunnels before the matte fails. I initially investigated the matter in response to someone's assertion that subway tunnels could be modified to aoccomodate commuter rail cars, and I argued (among other points) that the tunnel was probably not designed to handle that loading.
The only subway drawings I have ever seen were for the crosstown IND in the vicinity of Greenpoint. There are no piles, but the matte was 36-inches thick! Does anyone out there know more about how much weight the tunnel can take?
MATT-2AV
No, the tunnel would not cave in. You see, Superman can hear the beams breaking and will fly into the tunnel in time to hold up the ceiling and allow the train to pass safely by. :-)
Ah, a plot twist. If only they'd thought of it, they could've set the stage for a Money Train 2, and maybe Money Train 3.
Superman saves tunnel, arrests the TA boss, has sex with the policewoman, and arrests the two brothers. However, due to economic trouble, Superman later has to break the brothers out of jail so that they can help him rob another money train.
I think my sequel sounds more realistic than the original did.
I like your plot.
Only, doesn't the woman get a fractured pelvis from Superman's, ahem, enthusiastic thrusting?
The movie had about as much to do with the NY subways as my nephew's bathtub boat has to do with the Queen Elizabeth II.
IRT cars running on IND tracks; R-30's with door chimes; transit policewomen whose main assets are their oversize bosoms (and willingness to offer them as dessert for admiring fellow transit cops), everybody talking with bad accents and every other word is a four-letter curse, the error with depiction of brakes - this movie is a loser...
The real money train is a yellow, striped workcar which looks pretty non-descript. Buy an O gauge model of an IRT workcar and you'll have a Money Train.
Not only was the movie full of bloopers, but it was just plain lousy!
I just wanted to know whats everyones favorite Rail yard. As far As the B Division goes, i like Jamaica Yard. It carries two of my favorite subway lines. E and F. On the A Division i like 239th street. it has 2 levels!
I have never been to Either layup yard, but when i become a Motorman i hope to. Plus the pics on this website make the yards look good!
My favorite yard is the Mosholu Yard on the A division. It's under the tracy towers. Few people have been in the yard or seen the track configuration. It's not even on this site. Since it's under the two towers buildings it's hard to get pictures.
My favorite yard on the B division is the Concourse Yard because you can get great views of the yard from the bridges that go over it.
Mosholu Yard: 4 line home
Concourse Yard: D/B Line
240 Street.
I was riding in a car toward Green Acres mall. I saw a approach speed limit sign at the Rosedale station. It wasn't there before. Also, the Train usually gives you a 80 code over there. Now this approach speed limit sign says 60? is something going on at Valley tower or something?
Maybe there was another train ahead....?????
For a moment there I thought you were referring to the railroad of my youth days, the Chicago South Shore and South Bend.
Today while railfanning on the N and Q, I got off my Manhattan bound R40 N train at Dekalb for a Q express train, which arrived at the same time. Anyway after coming up from Canal guess what I see at Prince street, the very same R40 N I got off of. Sure we got ahead of it on the Broadway express, but I needed to get to 59th/Lex so I got off at 34th and got back on the N I got off in Brooklyn. I guess I should've just stayed on it!
Also on the N there were mostly R32's earlier in the day, but by afternoon R40s seemed to be the most common. Hardly any R68's on the N. :-)
Funny thing on the BAHN SIM I have of the new south side patterns, the very same thing happens with the express that left at Dekalb the same time as the local, the express pulls past that local at Prince street. I am gonna have to look at the schedules and see the difference for myself. I imagine the bridge makes better time if there's congestion around lower Manhattan on the N/R, but congestion on the bridge also slows things down as well.
Funny when I hopped off the N at Dekalb there was this MTA worker getting on. When he saw me get on again at 34th he probably thought "this guy sure saved awhole lotta time".
Same thing happened to me... I got off the N at dekalb and got on a Q. Then got off at canal and back to broadway. The next train that came in was the same N that I got off at dekalb. But... when i got to Canal and Broadway, there was a R backing up and going into storage at City Hall lower level. That took like 3 minutes and then antoehr 2 for the N to come. I guess you wont get too far ahead... then again, walking to the N/R takes some time too...
I have noticed that the northbound does about the same in timing. But going Brooklyn Bound, the Q is quicker, I have found in all instances of myself hoping off a N/R @ 14th Street and hoping a Q/W and getting the N/R in front the one I got off of in Manhattan. I guess its all in the timing and those dumb ass TIMERS!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Yeah S/B is quicker.
Going from QBP to DeKalb the other day, I just missed an N, took the following W, switched to a 5 at Lexington, got to Union Square in time to catch the Q in front of that W (and saw that initial N pull in just as the Q was leaving), and got to DeKalb in what felt like record time.
That's cool, but hard for me to believe because of all the transferring... it takes time to get to the other platforms...
Well, it was lucky, for sure. But why shouldn't it be, every once in a while...
The bridge should be much faster because the route is much straight. The Bridge requires slow speeds, but the Montague Tunnel doesn't fair that much better. And with all those turns, it's actually much worse. The #4 has a similar route to lower Manhattan, but the turns are less severe than on the Broadway Line. Plus, if you ever rode the #4 through the bklyn/Manhattan tunnel, you will be amaze how much faster it is than the Broadway Line.
If the MTA was to built a tunnel at the same parallel as the Bridge, BELIEVE ME, there will be a noticeable difference. It's not the Route, it's the bridge and the slow speeds that is required over it. Also, those switches into Dekalb Avenue don't help either.
As a matter of fact, compare to the other routes (which is explain below) that serves the same area, the 6th Avenue and Broadway Express tracks are the fastest route into downtown brooklyn.
The F suffers from stops and slower speeds around curves.
The A and C suffers from having to go all the way to downtown Manhattan, and then turning slightly northward into Downtown Brooklyn.
The routing on the 4 is similar to the Broadway Lines in lower Manhattan. The difference is, it doesn't have all those curves that is so well known on the Yellow Division. But it too seem to travel in a northernly pattern after it leaves lower Manhattan.
Since we are talking about Lower Manhattan, the Broadway Line is indeed the slowest form of transporation compare to the other lines. It not only suffers from the sharpest curves in the entire system, it has to merges with the M before it heads towards Brooklyn. And then there are plenty curves before it arrives at Dekalb Avenue.
So, as slow as the bridge is, compare to the other lines, it's no contest. In other words, speed just doesn't cut it alone...
I recall once hoping off an N @ pacific, taking a B (before the bridge flip) to 34th, and (without any unusual delays enroute) ending up on the very same N at 34th... it pulled in perhaps a minute after i walked between the platforms... which isn't all that far, of course.
"Funny thing on the BAHN SIM I have of the new south side patterns, the very same thing happens with the express that left at Dekalb the same time as the local, the express pulls past that local at Prince street."
Please post this BAHN simulation's name and where I can download it if it is available, or if it is just your creation?
It's just my creation. If it isn't up in the Bahn file list here in Subtalk than I'll gladly upload it.
Please upload. And also, there is a Bahn file list??? I know there's one on nycsubway.org, but does Subtalk have its own private one? It isn't up on nycsubway.org so please upload.
No, nycsubway.org is what I meant. Please check there for the Bahn file list, I will upload it as soon as I get the chance. If you want, email me and I'll send it to you. It requires Bahn for Windows 3.70.
A friend of mine really pissed off his most recent boss. Now when the TA contacts that prospective employees' previous boss, that boss will be giving a bad reference.
But can he? Will the TA even ask about his work record? Or will they just confirm employment? And how will the TA react to a boss giving a bad reference to someone who quit, and was not fired?
Like to know what some of you think.
Depends on where he worked. Where I work, HR merely confirms that the person worked there. Avoids potential lawsuits and terrorist acts.
Terrorist acts? Is total paranoia the order of the day or what? Are the cubicle walls in the offices made of bullet proof layered kevlar as well?
-Robert King
With today's lack of job security and the abrogation of the social contract between employers and their employees that made the once respectable United States the envy of the world, certain individuals have become violent. It behooves ALL employers to protect their businesses and employees from these unstable individuals. Long term, of course, the solution is to bulk up the power and influence of our labor unions so big business doesn't have the power to create such resentment.
I did not understand all the words, but you sure put Mr. King in his place.
Now I understand. I didn't realise that the likelyhood of an exemployee returning to the workplace after being fired to get revenge for their dismissal was so high.
-Robert King
I'm lost. Fill me in. I'm talking about an ex-boss giving me a bad job reference. What are you talking about?
Cause when you (your friend?) hear through the grapevine that your asshole ex-boss slandered you, they don't want you showing up with a machine gun.
That's the post office.
And Xerox. And Ford. And several other employers. 'Going Postal' is a misnomer. (and statistically misleading)
-Hank
It may be misleading. But it's the popular public perception.
Seems to me, the last guy that went 'Postal' was a computer something or other in Boston who killed several people in the personnel dept. of his company when they enforced an IRS garnishment.
You're right, these tragedies can happen anywhere. Unfortunately, people like to simplify things, and just throw people into a category. In this case, "postal" is used to describe a disgruntled worker who seeks revenge on a former employer.
Postal workers can't feel too good about this term.
Unfortunately, while it was the latest one the media chose not to ignore, it wasn't the latest such incident.
Sometimes, I think Labor Unions can cause artificial conflicts between employeer and employee. Sometimes unions are needed to protect workers from abuse, sometimes employers are raped by the unions. A happy middle ground is sometimes hard to come by.
Professionalism and respect on both sides is very important.
There is no good answer for there is a high degree of rhetoric on both sides.
Elias
In most cases, human resources will confirm employment, and say nothing more. In this case, there is no human resources department. TA will go directly to my former boss. I have no choice but to put him down.
I have seen the 21 page job application that the city now gives all potential employees. I know for a fact that it asks, "immediate supervisor", so there is no way around it.
Of course, a bad job reference will open someone up to a lawsuit, but in this case, my ex-boss is not smart enough to know that, so he'll just run me down.
But I have insurance. Just one year ago, he recommended my to a prestigious police department that accepted me. So I can always use that as backup.
We'll see how detailed a background check the TA does.
Well it's about time that you used "I" instead of "my friend" as far as your possible bad reference.
I mean it's a little obvious considering that you've asked this question about 5 times already.
Besides, I know a current T/O who did time for manslaughter. HOW BAD COULD YOUR REFERENCE POSSIBLY BE?!?!? ROTFLMAO.
Besides, I know a current T/O who did time for manslaughter. HOW BAD COULD YOUR REFERENCE POSSIBLY BE?!?!? ROTFLMAO.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL. OK. Busted.
Manslaughter? WOW. That's the kind of thing that drags the prestige of being a motorman down the tubes.
But those days are over my friend. Back in the day, many of the people who wanted this job, were such undesirables. Today, it's a different ball game. The TA is very cautious these days.
When I took the TOSS in December, the candidates were young, and college educated. Community College educated, but they still went on after high school.
As far as my bad reference, it WILL include, lateness, excessive sick days, and if the ex-boss wants to lie, he'll say I'm a racist, to almost ensure that I am not hired. This is, of course, if he does not get fired between now, and when the TA calls me, which will be for the October T/O class.
As far as my bad reference, it WILL include, lateness, excessive sick days, and if the ex-boss wants to lie, he'll say I'm a racist, to almost ensure that I am not hired.
This is, of course, if he does not get fired between now, and when the TA calls me, which will be for the October T/O class.
On the other hand, it's entirely possible that your ex-boss has largely forgotten about you by now and won't bother to say anything derogatory. Ex-employees very quickly drop off the radar screen. In other words, your boss may really, really have hated you when your worked for him, but now you're just somebody who once worked there.
<<>>
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In my case, I left less than 3 months ago, and my ex-boss was involved in many scams that I am now being asked about. He'll try to stick it to me when and if the TA calls him.
One of my mentors once told me, "even if you are paranoid, that doesn't mean that they are not out to get you."
You have the right to tell them they cannot contact a certain previous employer. And this is something you should double-check, but I was told by two previous employers that by law, they can't say anything more than 'Yes, he worked here.'
-Hank
Gee, a bad report from a former employer.
"As far as my bad reference, it WILL include, lateness, excessive sick days, and if the ex-boss wants to lie, he'll say I'm a racist, to almost ensure that I am not hired. This is, of course, if he does not get fired between now, and when the TA calls me, which will be for the October T/O class. "
Can't say the above suprises me. I felt that you had issues right from the start. Hmmmmm - makes me wish that I worked in the RTO Human Resources dept.
I'm not saying that any of the claims my ex-boss will make are true. Just that he'll say it anyway, in order to screw with me.
Issues? What kind of issues do you think I have? I'm just another guy who likes trains, and wants the job.
I got the impression that you had some racial issues. Fortunately, that thread died before it became too obvious. - I hope I am wrong, however
You are very wrong. I am not a racist. The thread was taken down when N Broadway Line started expressing his comments about Jews.
I never said anything offensive. If I did, I would have received emails, and warnings from the webmaster. Honestly, few responded to my posts, because I never said anything offensive.
The whole thing was off topic and should have been taken down anyway. And I stated this publicly.
As I said, I hope I am wrong.
>>> I'm not saying that any of the claims my ex-boss will make are true. <<<
A supervisor would be rather foolish to falsely allege excessive tardiness or absenteeism since both those things can be objectively checked by reference to the company records.
Tom
A supervisor would be rather foolish to falsely allege excessive tardiness or absenteeism since both those things can be objectively checked by reference to the company records.
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Company records which he has control of, and has tampered with before.
We're talking about a very corrupted man, who would really like to hurt me if possible.
This guy sounds a lot like a certain person I worked for as a summer 'job' several summers ago. I won't go into detail here, but when it came time to be paid, as per our agreement at the end of the summer, this 'job' suddenly became an 'apprenticeship' and an unpaid one at that. I managed to extract a whole whopping $100 from this certain somebody despite that apprenticeship rubbish and then things went downhill very severely, very fast from there as this person was adamant that I should continue working since I had been given the $100. This is the one reference I won't give to prospective employers, especially now, as this guy has spent the last few years trying, with varying degrees of success, to make my life very miserable (I've made sure to return the favour whenever a good opportunity to do so presents itself - normally I won't do that but this guy's tactics are just unbelievable) and providing a reference to him on a resume would be courting disaster.
Sorry for the rant, I did try to keep it brief (it is actually on topic for this board but I am witholding the details as to why - for now).
-Robert King
I forgot to mentionn that I don't feel like a first class moron for allowing this to happen to me as much as I used to: One of my friends - older and wiser than myself - recently got swindled by the same person with the good old scam of buying something, paying the money and agreeing to take delivery later. Meanwhile, the same stuff was sold a second time around to another person who actually did take delivery of the merchandise leaving my friend out of the cash he paid with nothing to show for it.
Again, this is actually on topic for this board but I'm not going to reveal details. In this case it is because this particular matter is recent, unresolved and doesn't actually involve myself other than I warned my friend to be careful with his dealings with this guy after my experience.
-Robert King
"internet auction, eh?" Aye or nay will suffice ...
No, my former boss made both deals privately. If this had taken place on the internet, it would be more easily tracable and there may be some firmer avenue to obtain recourse (eBay for example doesn't tolerate this sort of scamming).
-Robert King
If you have sufficient documentation on the transactions, and you can get your friend to take careful notes, it sounds like a visit to the police and your lawyer might be in order. And if any of this involved the mail, a complaint to the US Postal Inspection Service would be appropriate.
I hate dealing with jerks like that, but if I run into one (and I have), I like to nail his ass (legally) so no one else gets hurt (and I've accomplished that too on occasion).
I'd say you should spill; who is this guy? One of us could be next!
-Hank
I'm tempted but I'd like to think about it more before I do. Check this thread tomorrow.
-Robert King
I think by keeping this guy's identity a secret I'm doing him a big favour which is the last thing I want to do, so here it is:
Ray Neilson.
This has been on topic for Subtalk for several reasons.
First of all, Ray's name for his little one-man outfit is GPS Video and many trolley/train/bus videos in hobby stores or trolley museum gift shops are GPS Videos. It's quite possible that some of you own one or more of them, including Chicago Surface and Elevated Lines which is the tape I worked on although the credits don't show it - the terd didn't put my name in them when he made the duplication masters (this took place after I stopped working for him). Also, he gave away several free copies as a promotion (a person who got one of these tipped me off about the credits) but refused to give me one. If I wanted a copy, I'd have to pay the retail price.
Secondly, there is a smaller chance that some of you may have heard of Ray Neilson because he used to be the president of the Toronto Transportation Society untill he resigned as of February of this year. This part is so big it could probably stand as a whole other issue on its own, but suffice it to say for now he used that position for a long time to force his way and get revenge on people he doesn't like, including myself.
The last reason why this is on topic for Subtalk (or perhaps bustalk in this case) is because my friend I mentioned who got scammed bought a fairly large stash of bus rollsigns for a fairly large amount of cash. Then they were sold the second time to another person who actually took delivery of them - and then sent an email around to a number of people advertising a rent-a-rollsign business for bus fan trips which uses the signs that really belong to the first person. This is still being sorted out.
There you have it in a nutshell.
-Robert King
Maybe one way of dealing with this is to be up front about it.
On one consulting job I had recently, I was asked if I had any enemies at a certain client site. I said yes; a woman director didn't like what I did and didn't want me past my initial contract. I also said she would not be flattering about me because she was demoted a month after I left, in large part because of me. It was mutual in that I didn't want to stay, and I said that too.
I was fine - no effect on the consulting job. My current client simply said "Must have been a wake-up call for her."
You never know how people would react. Sometimes open disclosure means you don't have to make anything up, or remember a cover story. And if the employer takes you, it would be a lot harder to hold it against you later.
I'm not advising you to do that, only to consider what I've described as you mull over your options.
Thanks for the advice.
On the other hand, why don't you e-mail me with your real name, etc. I'd love to put a 'good' word in for you.
God. You and I had one little sparring match, and you'd actually do that without even knowing me?
I can only imagine how you treat your real enemies.
>>> TA will go directly to my former boss. I have no choice but to put him down. <<<
That seems like very drastic action.
>>> I have seen the 21 page job application that the city now gives all potential employees. I know for a fact that it asks, "immediate supervisor", so there is no way around it. <<<
There is always a way around it. Do you know of any supervisors at your old company who recently left there? Do you have any friends still working there who would assume the role of your "immediate supervisor" for a telephone inquiry? Have you tried having a friend call your old supervisor as a potential employer to determine what he will say? If he does say something that is slanderous, have an attorney write an appropriate letter to his boss. The next call for a reference will get a no comment.
Tom
Have you tried having a friend call your old supervisor as a potential employer to determine what he will say?
Excellent advice. I wish I'd done that sooner when I was downsized a few years back... the reference I assumed would be my best one - a supervisor who I had worked for twice, the second time because he sought me out to be on his team - turned out to be the one that was burning me... nothing slanderous, but "damned with faint praise".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Based on the fact that A MURDERER was hired by the TA, according to Zman who said he worked with a guy who was convicted of manslaughter, I am not so worried anymore.
>>> Based on the fact that A MURDERER was hired by the TA, according to Zman who said he worked with a guy who was convicted of manslaughter <<<
Don't be so loose with the language. I saw nothing about the TA hiring a murderer. As you correctly pointed out Zmanl79 said he worked with someone convicted of manslaughter, not murder. There is a great difference between the two.
Tom
The only similarity being having killed someone. Either way, not something a prosprective employer likes to see.
-Hank
A)I'm not sure if it's law or not, but so far as I know they can only confirm someone worked there. If it's not law, i suspect most companies follow such a policy to avoid any entanglements.
B)Who's to say job references can't be bluffed? (Yes, it's dishonest, but we live in a dishonest world) I know one cat who's entire resume and references were a fraud. his friends provided the 'fake' references, and he landed the job - got to move out of the ghetto and into a nice place - and in one short year has had several promotions and raises... he knew his stuff and knew it well, but didn't have the 'real' resume to reflect that or to let him change careers so swiftly... now he does though. I give him another 6 months at the most before he's pulling 6 figures. Underhanded, yes... but if you desperately need to get a foot in a door to get real food on the table, and to be able to live someplace where tyou don't have crack dealers sitting on your steps... well, desperate measures can be handy (so long as your people are slick and don't blow it).
I have to tell you, where I work, pulling such a stunt would get you fired immediately upon discovery, with no termination pay. While in your friend's situation such a drastic step may be a bit harsh, I have to say that in general, I agree with this policy.
subfan
As a Registered Nurse, I have had an employer call me for as a refference given to her by a prospective employee. Well, point if fact is that I was never his *employer* but only an officer of the volunteer ambulance company where he worked, and while I was more than satisfied when he worked, he also had more health issues and other outright excuses than you could shake a stick at. I was not impressed with his supervisory skills, and as he was seeking a supervisory position, I was a little taken aback with the call, and the fact that he used me as a reference.
The facility where at he applied had a Catholic Affiliation, and I as a Monk, and as an officer of the district Nurses Association was well known to the person who called for a refference. I hemed and hawed a liitle bit, said that the man never really *worked* for me, but that I was satified with his help on the ambulance. The man did not get the job, and that saved my friend at the facility some grief, I am sure.
Oh Well, North Dakota is a small state, Nursing supervisors all know one another quite well.
Elias
today my trip from boro hall to flatbush avenue took a very long time
First I missed 3 trains, running down the boro hall halls, then I made a 3 train, at hoyt the train was taken out of service due to bad brakes, Then a R142 2 train came, and the doors opened on the wrong side!!!, Than a redbird came , I took that to nevins street hoping for better A/C, but the R62 4 train just sat there for a while (I was very annoyed)
Simple solution: just stay at one platform, and from the sound of the ordeal, the 5 platform would've been the better choice.
Oh, btw, the R142's that have doors opening on the wrong side are doing so for testing I think. I've noticed a couple during my journeys as well.
Are there passengers on the train when the doors open on the wrong side? IS the TA testing to see if passengers look before they walk?
Michael
No and no.
Oh no I'm back! My summer's been pretty busy so not a lot of message-board posting time, and when i do it's usually on NWTekno.org or Spokaneparties.com - I've very involved with the westcoast rave scene.
But I'm currently on vacation here...staying in Fair Lawn, NJ (half a mile from the Radburn NJ Transit station) and today was my big subway railfanning trip...I'll have the pictures online in 2-3 weeks. But I noticed...
what's with the dead-end flying express ramp on the J-Z? Was there plans to build a flying express over the top of the portion with the center platforms, and then touch back down again where the platforms are side (and there is room for a third center track)? I wonder why no one has ever completed that...
Anyway for those who were wondering this was my trip:
Begin Radburn, 10:13am
NJT to Hoboken
PATH to 33rd
walk to 34th
D to 161/Yankee
4 to Woodlawn
4 to Fordham
Lucnh at Fordham/Jerome Taco Bell, 12:30-1:00
Bx12 to Kingswhatever
5 to Dyre
5 to 125th/Lex
M60 to the N el
N to QBP
7 to Main/Flushing
7 to 75/Continental
E to Sutphin
J to the big A-L-JZ junction
L to Myrtle
M to Marcy
J to Chambers
2 to whatever the first four-track station is
1 to South Ferry
9 to Cortland
PATH to Hoboken
NJT leaving Hoboken @ 7:10pm
Arr Radburn 7:45pm
It was way fun, except where the timed signals restrict you to 15mph...but oh well. Tomorrow: Ellis Island, World Trade Center, and all that touristy stuff. Saturday: Tickets to see the Mariners (my home team) kick some Yankee ass
I live by the Cresent St Station On the 'J' linre. That structure you mentioned was designed to be a continuation of the center track. It was supposed to run above the stations themselves from what I understand. I dont know where it was supposed to Level itself off. Too bad it wasnt ever completed
Questions:
It's 74th Street-Broadway
How did you get the 2 from Chambers Street on the J?
Why would you get off at South Ferry and wait for the next train?
Gee... making new subway routes is even easier with a computer than it is with a pen and pencil!
LGA - 125th Street Subway
This is an elevated line in Queens, running on the GCP right of way, across the Triboro Bridge, and then running under 125th Street.
From there it follows the AMTRAK tunnel making stops at 79th Street, Javits Center, and World Trade Center. (The last leg probably elevated along the old West Side Highway or there abouts.
The Stations at 79th Street, Javits Center, and World Trade Center rent out counter space to the various airlines, and can accept baggage check-in. To this end, the eastern-most car of each consist is a baggage car using roll-on / roll-off containers. Return trip baggage may also be checked directly to WTC, JJC, or 79Street.
It is also possible that the line could remain elevated along 125th St. if that seems more feasable.
Elias
Very cool, Elias. This would be a dream come true for me as well since I will be flying to LGA very often starting in October. The only time I've been to New York (about 2 years ago) I had to wait about 30 minutes (in rush hour!) for that unbelievably crowded M60 bus to show up at the N train in Queens. You're route looks much, much better than the current M60 and N train combo into Manhattan.
ok, it seems like you have alot of ideas and I have alot of subway line ideas, it seems that we both have alot more ideas. Why dont we work together on creating more lines?
By the way at La Guardia airport you need to make a loop, for the subway instead. So that some trains can go straight to Terminal D then go through the other terminals.
"By the way at La Guardia airport you need to make a loop, for the subway instead. So that some trains can go straight to Terminal D then go through the other terminals."
Oh?... Well it has been many years since I flew into LGA and I have long since forgotten it's layout and it's needs. Gee.... I remeber driving along GCP with my father and watching DC-3s take off and land.
Oh Yeah... the subway... I thought to have a straight in terminal so that there could be a place to unload the baggage car, and so that the baggage car would remain at the same end of the train. Of course with a loop at both ends, then we accomplish the same thing and it allows for some interesting car concepts that I am thinking about.
This early in the planning stage : ) I am very flexible.
Elias
This is an elevated line in Queens, running on the GCP right of way...
Do you plan to sever Amtrak's access to the Hell Gate Bridge in the process?
"Do you plan to sever Amtrak's access to the Hell Gate Bridge in the process?"
The the GCP hasn't severed it by now, then no I don't see how these lines would need to be in each other's way. Would probably fly over the Hell's Gate line before it gets to Astoria Blvd.
Elias
The Amtrak ROW crosses the GCP at 42nd St. There is not enough distance for an el to go under the Amtrak ROW and reach the level of the Astoria line at 31st St. Otherwise, they would have chosen the GCP route for the proposed Astoria Line - LGA link. There is even less distance from under the from under the Astoria line at 31st St and to the Triborough Bridge anchorage at Crescent St. Finally, do you think the Triborough was designed to handle the load?
"Finally, do you think the Triborough was designed to handle the load?"
NO! Under Moses, rail was supposed to disappear. The Triboro suspension link (like the Whitestone Bridge) was designed for automobile traffic only. Visually, you can see this by comparing the cables on these bridges with the George Washington, designed (by the Port Authority, no less) for rail service on the lower level.
Alternative?? Use the Hell Gate bridge to Randalls Island (Amtrak has excess capacity), build a spur and second bridge to Manhattan, and then pick up.
Another poster on this thread said that the Amtrak west side line is not compatible with subway. There is no reason why the tracks could not be realligned and separated. Wasn't the west side line originally four track?
"NO! Under Moses, rail was supposed to disappear. The Triboro suspension link (like the Whitestone Bridge) was designed
for automobile traffic only. Visually, you can see this by comparing the cables on these bridges with the George Washington,
designed (by the Port Authority, no less) for rail service on the lower level."
Not exactly. You're comparing two bridges that really are on a different scale. While the thickness of the cables can relate to the intended load, the GWB has a more substantial bridge deck (two, to be specific), and thus is heavier. Even if the GWB were designed to carry two decks of automobile traffic, the cables would still be heavier because the unit length of deck is heavier. The more telling sign is the grade.
"Alternative?? Use the Hell Gate bridge to Randalls Island (Amtrak has excess capacity), build a spur and second bridge to
Manhattan, and then pick up."
Hmmm... I don't know. Yes, the Hell Gate Bridge has excess capacity, but it isn't exactly in a practical location. You'd have to build to get up onto it, and then come down off in the vicinity of 125. You'd have to then get across the East River, deal with the Triboro Bridge to Manhattan, and dive deep under 125th Street before the 2nd Avenue Subway. That seems to me like a lot of up and down creating a mangled mess. Also, all the property on the concave side of the Hell Gate Bridge is fully occupied up to about the toll plaza. If you think about the required elevation changes over such a short distance, it doesn't appear so practical all of a sudden.
MATT-2AV
Exactly!
N/W
There are FOUR tracks on the Hell's Gate Bridge, so we will take the north pair go across into the Bronx and loop clockwise down into the old New Haven yard, and then go under the Harlem River from the Bronx side (in a rail yard all of the way, and deep under Second Avenue as we go up 125th Street.
That seems awfully out of the way and circuitous.
Let's assume that subway tunnel construction costs ten times that of above ground construction. This is actually a pretty reasonable assumption. The subway construction rule of thumb is $1 billion per mile, so elevated structures would cost $100 million per mile.
Your plan involves 3.5 miles of above ground travel (from the beginning of the Hell Gate Bridge in Astoria) followed by 1 mile of tunnel (you have to start early to get deep enough). That's a $1.35 billion plan just to get from Astoria to 125.
What if you simply made a straight shot from Astoria to Harlem 125 with a tunnel under the East River? It's about 1.7 miles, for a cost of $1.7 billion. The extra 1-mile of above ground construction hardly registers at $0.1 billion, for a total cost of $1.71 billion.
That plan is a mere $360 million more than the circuitous Hell Gate Bridge Route, and if you had examined the elevations involved, I think you would have found that the change in grade is very dramatic and might preclude your option all together.
However, I feel the best plan of all is for the Port Authority to construct an Airtrain II. This would be an above ground route linking LaGuradia with the Jamaica LIRR stop, the Astoria line, and possible other Queens lines in the vicinity, like the Flushing. The Port Authority has demonstrated an ability to get a system constructed, and let the MTA use the $1.7 billion for realistic transit expansions such as a 2nd Avenue subway, a Flushing extension to the Javitz, and more. You lose the one-seat ride, but you give the MTA back the pie-in-the-sky fantasy dollars.
MATT-2AV
1) I am not irrevocabaly (heheheeh) commited to that idea that the line needs to be *subway*, and could be run my another entitiy.
The circitus tracks 3.x miless ALREADY EXISTS, and so you cannot really compare construction costs to new trackage.
Yes an AeroTrian-II is also a good Idea, and there is the same RoW over the VanWyck as was used by Aero-I But neither of these AeroTrains really serve Manhattan or the rest of the city.
If the LGA-125th Street Line were to be run by the LIRR, it might go right into Penn Station and a conflict Transit-vs-Amtrak would not play.
Elias
That's fair enough. A good deal of the trackage already exists. If I am not mistaken, one track is out of service on the bridge, and would have to be replaced so that standard rail traffic could use the other two. The cost would be small, so adding on $100 per mile is not entirely accurate. However, substantial costs would be involved in constructing ramps to bring the line up onto, and then off of, the Hell Gate Bridge.
Another obstacle is grade. Can you get from an elevation of, say, +50 at the Bronx terminus down under the Harlem River in the space allotted? If zero were an arbitrary datum at MHT, then you'd probably have to get to -80 (or so) to get under the 2nd Avenue line. I don't have an answer for you, because I don't know how deep the Harlem River is, but this is an important obstacle to be solved before you build your line.
Finally, I don't know where people come up with this "AirTrain doesn't serve Manhattan" idea. AirTrain is part of the overall transit system, and it serves two main purposes: 1) to circulate passengers inside the airport, and 2) to connect them to transportation points outside the airport.
No, it doesn't go directly to Manhattan, but don't get hung up on the need for a one-seat ride. You can transfer. I do it every day I take the subway. Sure, I wish there was a line that ran straight from East 86th Street to Seventh Avenue, but there isn't. I have to use Times Square or 59th and Lexington. I wish AirTrain ran directly to various fantasy points in Manhattan via a deep bore tunnel, but transit money doesn't grow on trees.
MATT-2AV
"Alternative?? Use the Hell Gate bridge to Randalls Island (Amtrak has excess capacity), build a spur and second bridge to Manhattan, and then pick up."
The question is, how will it get on the Hell Gates Bridge from 125th Street? Will stay underground until it reaches the bridge, which is situated on Randalls Island? Would it make better since to just keep the entire route underground? And, how will it get off the Amtrak route without complicating things more?
The Triborough seems like a better choice because it comes right off of the 125th Street. The downside to this, though, is that the bridge is probably constructed for heavy rail services. Since that is the case, can the bridge be alter to accomdate heavy rail services? And what are the cost involved?
Thanks for your comments.
N/W Broadway Lines
The Randalls Island-Manhattan part of the Triboro should be able to carry rail -- the only question is where you would put the tracks.
I believe that the Harlem River no longer requires the 55' above MHW clearance, so you could put the tracks under the current roadway.
Having looked at the cut in which the NY Central freight line runs from the Trump freight yard to the yards west of Penn Station, IIRC, it is too narrow for it to ever have contained four tracks.
Anyone know how wide the bridge is at Spuyten Duyvil(sp?)?
You spelled it correctly: Spuyten Duyvil.
I go all the way up there on MetroNorth occasionally to visit friends. If I recall correctly, the swing bridge has room for two tracks, but only one is currently in place.
MATT-2AV
The swing bridge at Spuyten Duyvil was always two tracks since the west side line was historically used solely as a freight line. I don't believe it ever carried passenger service until recently.
I believe that the West Side line did carry passengers back when it was first constructed... there are remains of what appears to be a passenger platform near the GWB. But it hasn't carried any (until Amtrak) within my memory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe this died before the High Line was built and did not extend to below 30th Street.
Anything's possible ... welcome back, by the way ... hope the family's all feeling a bit better considering.
Where is this platform?
There is a walking path that crosses the West Side line just north of the GWB, heading down toward Jeffrey's Hook lighthouse. If you look to the north of the footbridge you can see what appears to be a section of concrete platform adjacent to the track, IIRC on the east side of the line. I've not photographed it so I'm going from memory as to which side it's on.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Elias,
Thanks for the fantasy. It never hurts to be creative and dream.
However, I don't think the Triboro Bridge has excess capacity and can spare the ROW. I have no idea about structural issues with the bridge, as long as the two-track alignment runs down the center of the bridge. You'll have to find another way over (or under) the East River.
How much excess ROW is in the box tunnel under Riverside Park for a two-track alignment? Rapid transit is not compatible with standard rail, and thus, cannot share Amtrak's ROW. Also, what about ROW reserved for future MetroNorth expansion into Penn Station?
You would want a transfer at the future Second Avenue subway at 125th Street.
If you're going as far as constructing separate cars and making short stops between terminals, maybe NYCT subway cars aren't the best rolling stock for this application? It's also a long ride with few stops for weary travelers. Rolling stock with more seats, overhead compartments and large doors may be better.
These are just my opinions,
MATT-2AV
Good advice MATT-2AVE
N/W
Do you realize that the Amtrak tracks run through (under) Riverside Park? Your 79th Street station would be right in the middle of the park. I don't think park users would look kindly on airline counters filling up their park, and rightfully so -- I suppose they could go inside the Boat Basin parking garage, which is so subdued that I only first noticed it a few months ago after having lived half a mile away for most of my life.
And how are people going to get to the three stations with baggage terminals? WTC is in the wrong direction for anyone in the Bronx and most of Manhattan. Javits is nowhere near any subway lines, and the buses are already jam packed on convention days without the help of luggage-toting airline passengers. And 79th Street is, as I said, in a park, a few blocks west of the subway (at a local stop). Even if a stop is added on the M79 at the turnaround itself, how many people are going to ride the local to 79th, transfer to the M79, and transfer again to your new line? On a line like yours, most passengers would board at the transfer points along 125th Street, but that's not where you've placed your baggage counters.
There are also, of course, significant problems with using the Amtrak line. How many tracks are there? I think there are only two, which means you'll have to share them with Amtrak. Doesn't that get us into hot water with the FRA?
Oh, and the old West Side Highway was torn down over a decade ago. All that remains is the piece between 57th Street and 72nd Street, totally rebuilt and carrying 6-8 lanes of traffic. Are you thinking of the High Line?
79th Street (under ground) was supposed to be a drop off for people arriving by automobile or taxi. Cars loop through that interchange all of the time. The drop off could be along Riverside Drive with underground structure for the terminal area. If so it might better be located at 86th Street where there is no interchage in the way.
Yes, Baggage connections along 125th street are quite possible, I was unable to judge if these locations would be the best.
I think there used to be four tracks in the Riverside tunnels, perhaps one of them has been ripped out. If so, it can be put back.
Elias
Perhaps I wasn't clear. There is not an inkling of a chance that airline counters will be permitted in Riverside Park. Inside the parking garage, perhaps, with a dropoff area at the current ramps into and out of the garage, but the loop ramps to and from the northbound HHP would need major improvements since they're unsafe for the few vehicles that use them today. Access could not be from Riverside Drive since that's where the park is. Moving it to 86th would only serve to make it less accessible by both car and bus. Don't get me wrong -- I live a few blocks from 86th and Riverside and I'd love to be able to walk to the airline's checkin counter, but I'd say you'd have better luck building the 2nd Avenue subway.
And do you really expect many people to take cabs to 79th and Riverside Park? Once they're in a cab, most travelers will take it all the way to the airport. The only people who would ride this are those who are not averse to taking the subway, and that means the most important access points are the transfer points. If you can work out a connection to an existing subway line, so much the better. For instance, how about turning the line south at 125th, connecting with the 1/9 as soon as they reach the same elevation? The 1/9 could use a service boost.
Can the Triborough Bridge handle trains?
N/W
I just noticed that you have the terminals at LGA backwards. Coming from Manhattan, the first terminal is D, than C, B, and A.
"I just noticed that you have the terminals at LGA backwards. Coming from Manhattan, the first terminal is D, than C, B, and A. "
Ah... That is easy to fix. Now I have to tell you the map that I swiped that from was a MICROSOFT product.
Elias
OK I dunno if that has ever happened but the reception tonight is crazy! I've got in radio stations from Philadelphia, Virginia and as far away as the Outer Banks of NC, over 300 miles away. The skip is happening on TV as well.
Man I wonder if the TA radios are getting crazy reception?
The next week or so all the Monitoring Hobbyists are going crazy, a magnetic sunspot alingment is bringing southern reflex signals north towards us, I have been getting even French and german Eastern frequencies on the federal band, so its eastern too. Check the Ham radio channels, people are going nuts!!
I'm sure Todd GLickman can comment, but when I was living in Memphis,TN I picked up as far away as Canada, Salt Lake City, Des Moines, and even WCBS-AM. Todd can elsborate on atmospheric phenomena and being in radio he can elaborate also on the power of stations vs frequency of the station.
Holy off topic, batman.
Yes, there are certain stations that are deemed "clear channel" by the FCC. This stems from years-gone-by when it was determined by the U.S. Government that in the event of a national emergency (i.e. nuclear attack), just ONE station in every market should stay on the air, and provide offical government information; all others were to shut down. These clear channel stations are usually 50,000 watts AM, so that they would carry to remote areas (especially at night, when the sky wave permits AM signals to travel best). Examples include WCBS, NY; WBZ, Boston; WWL, New Orleans, etc. Want to see the whole list? Click here. Look for the Class I-A stations.
Atmospherially, when the tropopause is low (at night, and more so during the cold season), AM radio waves "skip" best.
Today, these are the stations most enjoyed by all-night truckers, insomniacs, etc.
And now, back to the subway system...
I didn't paste the right link for the list of AM stations by frequency.
Here it is.
STORY of one bats journey on the D Train.
Peace,
ANDEE
Dang ... Train Dude's gotta keep his pets in his office. :)
I worked from 4AM to 3PM on Thursday and I heard now report of bats. I heard nothing 'abat' it all day today, either.
Heh. When they see the first signs of a sunrise, they clammor for any place that's dark. All it takes is a hole the thickness of a pencil for them to climb into on a building ... trains are a natural for them. Until the lights come on. :)
We're still going to blame you anyway - after all, car preps is car preps and you know the rules about passengers on non-revenue track. Heh.
It's likely that the bats were living in the station and were probably just a little wing-weary and decided to hitch a ride. I think Subway-Buff (who at last report was working nights) has some explaining to do. One would also wonder if the bat is capable of finding its way back on its own or if it will be looking for a new bat-station.
Heh. Well, I'm not quite so up on bats (other than having the occasional winged beastie sneak into the house through a door crack every now and then) but I imagine they hang for the day wherever they land and aren't terribly territorial. They want to fly where there's swarms of bugs, and mosquito clouds seem to be their favorite. That all said, sure hope the TA bat was eligible for penalty pay. :)
Now, First we have to find the crew that layed the train up. We have to ask them why they didn't remove the bat from the train. I can tell you this it wasn't me. I removed the bat from my No.4 train at Bedford PK before returning to Mosholu Yard at 2AM. The bat asked me How to get to Coney Island and I told it to take the D Train. I forgot to tell it to get off at 34 Street for the N,Q, or W Train.
Shoulda put it on the BX20 bus ... heh.
Do you mean the Bx9, or the northen end of the former M100?
The BX20 used to do Fordham/Kingsbridge Rd crosstown ... 30 years ago when last I was there ...
I figured you meant the Bx9 and not today's Bx20.
They were all massively renumbered in 1984. I can't figure out why.
The demise of the bat should be a lesson to potential fare evaders.
Michael
This seems to be a banner year for bats. I had one in my house, as did a friend.
In the past year, we had the rat riding from 42nd to 34th, the pigeon riding from Smith-9th Street to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and now the bat. Any other strange sightings out there??
bi or quadra-ped?
Pre-Guilani - bi
During Guiliani - quadra
Visiting New York lost its luster for me under "Herr Mayor" ... I'm sorry, but New York used to be "interesting" ... I mean after all, how many times can any civilized human endure "the Lion King?" I came to NYC for the hookers on 8th and 44th, the catfights on Christopher St and "umbrella too dolla" on "Avenue de las Gringas" ... No WONDER bats are newsworthy these days ... I grew up in "Fun City" and when it STOPPED being "fun" I left ... Rollerina died for our sins.
Amen! Amen! Amen! We can at least bring back some of the "fun" with the Demy Days Of Dinky (Dinkens)
I knew Dave Dinkins from back in my WRVR days when he was a partner with Percy Sutton. Apollo theatre by the way ... I can tell you that Dave was as honest as the day is long and he got the POWER SHAFT when he was Mayor ... sorry, but I *knew* the guy and he was honest, sincere and GAVE a phlying phuck ... guy probably cared WAY to much.
When Ed Krotch was mayor and Abie Baby, I wouldn't have given you a flip for da chitty ... but Dave tried REAL hard in a time when our national leaderchip flushed the city down the toilet. Dave cared a bit too much about the wrong people - those pesky dark-skinned types that cause ALL of the problems, nevermind that man behind the curtain ... but had Dinkins not have been subjected to mass federal screwings and a bad economy, I know he could have squared it up.
And just as Paturkey smells pretty because of the Clinton economy letting him get away with his sheet, the Shrub debacle will be his undoing ... wait and see. Don't dis Dave Dinkins though, he got shafter by factors entirely out of his control ... he was ALWAYS fair dinkum as they say in Australia, a man of his word ... and he kept the faith.
Go ahead, dis me here ... I *knew* the guy. I *knew* what he believed and where his morals are. Then again, Jimmy Carter had a clue too but like Dinkins, nobody listened to him. Therefore, history wrote both up as bad apples. Ain't true ...
Maybe so, Maybe so, so what you are saying the "screw-ups" if you will, made by Dave's operation were entirely the presen situation's fault? meaning Washington and the present economy at that time
NYC got SCREWED in Dinkin's time ... star wars missile defenses and cuts to vital city services, along with a TRULY sucky economy all conspired against NYC ... had NYC had a "tax-cutting mayor" at the time, it would have been over.
Dave was a very thoughtful man who cared about the plight of unions, homeowners, the poor and needy and everyone. Dave was a guy who learned from Roosevelt, (he did a WPA gig) Malcolm X (be responsible for YOURSELF and SHOW PROPERS BY EXAMPLE) as well as the Republican forces in the city ... but above all else, Dave Dinkins didn't want to screw anybody and that made him too *UN* arrogant to be an effective mayor ... when any "community board" from ANY hood came to see Dave, he listened, cared about their concerns and desperately tried to balance them with all the others he had to listen to.
Like Jimmy Carter, he was TOO obsessed with doing the "right thing" to be able to do "ANY thing" ... maybe being mayor of NYC is too demanding for someone who possesses a SOUL ... but Dave Dinkins was ALWAYS someone who wanted to do the right thing, no matter what. Compare this to our current national leadership, "you voted wrong, screw you." Like I said, knew the man and I WORSHIP him for his truth to his own principles. Alas, BECAUSE of his morals, he ended up being a lousy mayor. But he's right with God ...
Thats why a hard-Core Communist like Guliani is needed in this city. This city is too big, too bad (not in a negative bad i mean, tought is the word), too diverse, too unique, too hot to handle too cold to hose to be naive with. You need someone who will put their foot down, because you just cant please everyone here. Guliani's tactics of almost absolutism is probably best for a city like this (as if there is one like it) because thinkgs need to get done. Something like this won't work anywhere else but NYC, because somewhere else these acts of absolutism could even be considered illegal
Heh. I dig your background and what Dad told you about the old evils. Cold fist sure does speak volumes of "Ghouliani" ... as I said in a deleted thread about my old buddy, "In Russia they hold you tight by throat, in Americal they let you out on leash" ... the reason your family CAME here was not entirely economic (after all, we possess "hard currency" here heh) but rather the "leash" ... so I can see where culturally, a leash ain't such a bad thing. :)
What BOTHERS me about Ghouliani (as well as his "bunkerbabe") is his driving out of NYC's "artists" and "creative element" with his "you smoked a joint, we put you in Rockefeller jail now." ... it's one thing to have crimes with victims, quite another when it folks behind closed doors enjoyed some weekend fun WHERE THEY WERE NOT IN A POSITION TO HARM ANYONE ELSE ... my point here being "artists are strange folks and if they don't operate trains, motor vehicles, or venture outside their "loft" who GIVES a crap? If "artists" ain't in someone else's face, ain't committing crimes, and ain't endangering the public (for the record, I've told you how I don't approve of "tagging" property but I did understand and appreciate a very small part of it) then they should be left alone UNTIL they pose a danger. Without "culture" all NYC has is the "lion King" and little else.
I'm sorry ... I remember PLAYLAND on Broadway and so much of Times Square" that was gawdy, cheap, and depressing ... but then again, it was PRECISELY the DECADENCE that gave it its own unique CHARM ... Like prewar cars at an OUT of NYC museum, this too should have been preserved and would have made its OWN "museum piece" left alone with all the "karate movie houses" and "porn theatres" from "Blackjack" to "Show World" all left intact as it was ...
What NYC *NEEDED* to do was rid the streets of pickpockets, the "keys $25" salespeople on the streets and other petty crimes that showed signs of escalated violence. NYC didn't get crime reduction, it got PURISTANISM ... from the Brooklyn Museum to Show World ... "art" died in NYC and I will forever blame "Herr Reichsbunker Mayor" for destroying NYC's "interesting" ...
I go to MONTREAL for titty bars now and the former NYC factor of "interesting." From where I live, it's CLOSER et nous parlons français s'il cous plait.
I understand everything you say. Not just understand, but agree with it 100%. But when I was writing those opinions, I was taking it from the "average joe, don't pull nothin interesting, cautious, yuppie" point of view. Ofcourse I want to see what Times Square looked like before, and ofcourse I want to see running pieces on Steel, and Ofcourse I want New York to be known for its Hard-ass attitude, that is what made it New York. Unfortunately it went down the drain, It went as Disney came, as Guliani came, I seen it before my eyes, I joined the Auxiliary police in the winter of 1999 just before The New Years,I seen the result in the changed NYPD, main criteria Bring White suburbia tourists in and cliche the whole place to death will result in bad reputation, no revenue, no buisness, no money OUT. I saw the hype, and I realized that the city is not the same, I knew it went to hell, say about 1994, The point is that my fear has come true, New York is becoming more and more of the same Goddamn "elswhere outside New York" and less New York New York. And thats F*****g bad.
P.S. No offence to Control ( The Joe ) we all know what your intentions are
Whoops! SORRY for losing this thread ... YES ... New York City WAS "interesting" and is no more. Question is how many New Yorkers are really nostalgic for the "good old NYC sidewalk act accompanies by a Sabretts?" Damned few from the sound of it. "Street dogz" and a good sidewalk act MADE lunchtime wherever it happened.
Driving out the sidewalk acts though is what ruined it for me. Watching transvestite catfights on Christopher street also did it for me as did "guess the malfunction of THIS person?" long before REGIS got to host it. As I've told others, when NYC lost all of its "fun city" attributes, it went straight to hell as far as the "interesting" that causes people to slow down, crane their necks and take it in. AMERICA loves a multiple pileup and Manhattan has ALWAYS given that.
Disney, AOLTimeWarnerGreat Adventure and all the other theme parks gave it up and are suffering attendance meltdowns - so is NYC and its former "be entertained by merely walking out the door" reality as well. Hell, it's more fun up here watching FREIGHT TRAINS go by. Fortunately, there are STILL titty bars and wimmens in windows on the street in Montreal, the NOUVEAU "fun city" ...
I agree with every single observation that you posted...THANKS
Peace,
Andee
thank god there are sane people here
Hey, Kev. You have GOT to make it down to Key West someday as much of it still has that bohemian underbelly that is reminiescent (sp?) of old 42nd street. The place is in the tropics -- 75 miles south of Miami -- but boy, the bars there are a-hopping and the T-bars are well stocked w/bubbileous babes! Also, there is a very campy transvestite club that has the patrons showing up with their pet cats and dogs wearing the same outfits as the owners! It's a real scream! Too bad NYC can't have more of that...
BMTman
Too bad NYC can't have more of that...
Somehow I doubt the man on the far left would make a very convincing drag queen. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Heh. Been there, lived in Mihami Bits for a while too. Too much like Manhattan in August, right down to the 4pm thunderstorm. Maybe some day, NYC will get back its sense of humor ... you can be tough on the bad guys without being tough on the good guys ... maybe there's hope.
Maybe if you had been aorund at that time, and been a victim of all the crime, you'd think differently.
"Artists" and creativity is one thing, but to complain about the loss of NYC's "roughness" - a.k.a. dangerousness, unhealthfulness, the things that drove so much population and economy from here in the first place - that doesn't make sense.
not to you, you dont have the same mentality as people like me, my friends and such, and SelkirkTMO ofcourse, hungry for NY titty bars and feudin' transvestites
There's a difference between victimless things like titty bars and MUTUAL transvestite fights, but the squeegee men, pickpockets and muggers had to go.
BTW, How come I rarely see kids with MTA Keys hanging from their jeans, Those were the days
Showoff! :)
Church keys changed. What can I say?
WHere can I obtain new ones?
Damn if I know ... if you were REALLY hard up in my time, one of those "pop-top" can lids, if bent just right, would get you in your car. Heh. They musta caught on. :)
I have a full set....But, alas, they are not for sale....YET
Peace,
ANDEE
where did you aquire, im hardly looking to buy, maybe cheap off pf a good T/O or C/R. im more likely to steal
Kev, nice post.
I think I'll make this one a 'keeper'.
BTW, send it along to the Daily News, NY Times, and the Village Voice. Somebody at one of those might enjoy it to the point of giving it some room in the Op Ed pages...
BMTman
I really wonder if any of them would *care* ... it wasn't like this all happened quietly in some outer borough out of the way alley, happened right downtown ... given the cultural morgue that NYC has become, bats are fitting. Keep an eye out for black caped men wandering the streets after midnight. After all, Halloween's coming. :)
I do believe that Dinkins meant well, but he truly bumbled the situation in Crown Heights. That's when he lost all hope of reelection.
Yes. Passengers getting on the right train!! LOL
PIGEONS get on the A at far rockaway, thats probably where the g line ones came from, I have seen them ride all the way to 59th street, though most get off at east new york
There are also lots of pigeons at 168th on the 1/9. They probably board at the elevated stations and get off at 168th but can't find their way to the elevators.
Holy straphangers, Batman!
Well, everyone's been hearing that the Yanks' big problem this season has been a lack of bats. Maybe this one was trying to get to the stadium on the D train. :-)
If that's the case that bat and a few dozen more of his friends should hop on the 7. The Mets need their help a lot more than the Yankees.
I like the line about 'D' trains being stored "near the Bronx Zoo, where woods abound."
Beg pardon, but the Concourse Yards are more than a mile away from the Zoo as the crow- er, bat flies. True, heavily wooded Van Cortlandt Park is pretty close by.
Maybe they're thinking of the East 180/Unionport Yards.
They must have had Bronx Park in mind, as it is very expansive and has a bunch of nooks and crannies where bats can hide.
This is strange, b/c my brother told me about this incident when I came back home yesterday.
Although it has been 5 days sinceyou posted the message, I found reading the story on the bat found on the "D" train rather amusing. It should have taken the "B" train intsead. "B" for bat.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Our news station here in Philly, KYW (1060 AM) is running a piece on the sinking of the Redbirds. They explain how they are being sunk to serve as a reef. Also, they went into some detail how the cars were stripped of almost everything, rubber, glass, underbody components, etc. The funny part is where they say "Don't worry about the graffiti, it's been removed"
New York will be famous forever with the sinking of the Redbirds!
Chuck Greene
and evem more so for graffiti
I rememeber that period of time when the subway cars were covered
with graffiti and looked simply awful. We did not seem to have that problem to that extent here in Philly. Any defacing of property
in my book is a crime. You have no right to mark up someone else's
property or anything else.
Chuck Greene.
Did they report anything on the delivery date for the redbirds??? I'd lve to head over and get a few photos when they arrive.
nevermind. i just saw the article posted by SUBWAYSURF. thanks!!!
i'll try to find out where they're keeping them and get some pix!!!
According to www.portland.com, the likely fare for Amtrak from Portland, ME to Boston (North Station)will be $21 one-way and $35 round trip. The holdup has been major track rehab from Portland to Plaistow, NH and where to place platforms. Stops are supposed to include Old Orchard Beach, ME and Wells, ME (both of which I've lived in). As for Portland, a temporary station would be built near the existing Concord Trailways Bus Terminal (Exit 5 off of I-295)while the permanant facility would go up on Marginal Way (Exit 7 near Back Cove). The article didn't mention what the fare would be on the weekend.
"$21 one-way and $35 round trip"? This is the first I've ever heard of any "round trip" fare on Amtrak, especially a discounted round-trip. Very unusual.
Is there anything left of Portland's railway stations from the "golden era" (1930s-40's)? if so, why not use them. Or is it gonna be like an Albany or St. Louis, where inter-city trains no longer call on cities' grand old stations.
>> This is the first I've ever heard of any "round trip" fare on Amtrak... <<
I used to ride with discounted round-trip fares to Baltimore. I seem to recall it was something like $89 one way, $117 RT, from NWK to BWI.
AFAIK, as long as you're not riding during "peak" hours, you get a discount. It's the same on NJ Transit. If you're a commuter on NJT buying your tickets every day, and you ride during peak hours (the shaded part of NJT's printed timetable), you pay full fare both ways. If you ride off-peak, you get a break. The last time I rode round trip from Raritan to NY-Penn, the difference was (as I recall) $17.50 Peak, $13 RTX (Round-Trip Excursion) Off-peak.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The station is long gone. The area is a strip mall with no room for train patron parking.
Last night around 5:15, I waited at my usual spot at 5th Avenue, front of the platform, Queens-bound. Noticed that the Times Square bound train in the station was short a car, only 10 today. Had to then move up a bit so I can grab the window. Train pulls in and the T/O had the door wide open thereby allowing me a partial view out the window as well as an unimpeded view into the cab. Pretty interesting watching him do his thing. The door must have been broken because he closed it at QP and the door was partially ajar within the cab allowing me to see the light and destination switches on the back wall of the cab. At 40th-Lowery, I noticed someone taping Queens-bound trains from the west end of the Manhattan bound platform. Wonder if it was anyone from here?
I saw a front page story about a bat (yeah, the kind that lives in caves) having a field day on a southbound D train. Does anyone have more details on this? Did the bat have a valid MetroCard? Was he SUBWAYSURF's pet that had gotten loose? Was he just trying to get to Coney Island w/o using wing-power?
Inquiring minds want to know...
BMTman
check post 252324
Not only was it a fare-beater, but it got snagged at 59th ... and of course I have valid press credintials, read about it on SUBTALK! Heh.
What most of the riders apparently didn't know is that when a bat is freaked out, it pisses in the air like a toad in your hand. Whoops. That WASN'T drool stains. Now they're REALLY gonna flip out. Geese that is, bat's already a goner.
LOL!
Of course if Fred Donaher (Flxible) caught the bat, he would put the wings on the sides of one of his GMC New Looks in order to get "authentic" Bat-Wings on one of his models.
I know that this is really a Bus-Talk joke. Bat-Wings is the slang given to the Advertising Boards that were mounted along the roof line of some buses in the early 70's. NYTM has preserved one in its museum fleet and several pictures can be found in the Bus Fest sections of this site.
Bats are less than 44" tall and can ride for free.
Sounds like one of Batmans petsgot loose in Gotham......:>)
Maybe it belonged to the Mets...they can't find their bats this season.
-Hank :(
Good one! LOL!
Tsk. Tsk. Typical YAWN-kees fans...
Not enough BALL$ to meet us face-to-face,
so they go for the side-shot..
Tho it's always better to lose a bat....
than to throw one~~~and we all know
how much THAT cost you!
I AM a Mets fan. NEVER accuse me of rooting for the Yankers, except when they beat Atlanta and Philadelphia during the regular season.
-Hank
Man, you got that right.
..................lol........!!! it must have been mad at the new r-142s !!...........lol !!!
.....or maybe the hippos?
yep all with " transverse equipped cabs" ........( & no railfan window )... like the @GOOD OLD WONDERFUL REDBIRDS!!!
woooooppppppeeeeee!!
" Was he SUBWAYSURF's pet that had gotten loose? "
BMTman ...........this post is a real ...........lol!! ......( thank you ) ......S.A. from L.A. Co. .........
Suppose we shot a movie along the lines of "Chicken Run." The Redbirds are herded up, ready to be sunk off Delaware. But they don't want to die! The bravest among them organizes a late night getaway, and, after a couple of fouled attempts, a few ten-car trains crash their way out of the yard and head for freedom. They meet Daisy Diesel, a friendly Norfolk Southern engine who is sympathetic to their plight and runs an "underground railroad" to rescue old subway cars from drowning. Daisy hooks up and pulls them off to the sunset (Canada?) just as the evil cutting-torch carrying demolition people show up on the scene, bloodhounds yelping....
Got bottle, whiz now. :)
Sounds like a thomas train episode. I wonder if that show still airs.
I sure hope NOT, for a long time that show made me fear the rails.
Awwwww...
Dan
Now, Chicken Run looks funny, but this one would be freaky.
I LIKE IT I LIKE IT..............
Well this time I'll have a chance to explain my disappearance. Since I've been back to my real home last December I've been bumming my son's computer. He's starting college at Mont. St.U soon and taking the computer to Bozeman with him. So until I come up with a WebTV wich I assume I can work all these sites with and maybe clear some dust around my own things to do again I'll say a very fond so long for now and PLAN to see ya later alligator. [If you can ever find the original version of "Later Alligator": by Bobby Charles on the Chess label...the background music made me feel like I was riding the BU's on Myrtle, back in 1956. Yesterdays Memories [Lillian Leach and the Mellows]! I'm a 1950's rhythm and blues/rock and roll fan too.
If anybody needs any help with ancient history or modelling tips, etc feel free to call at 406-222-0154, or 220-0308.
Before I get into any more silly stuff....best wishes....Ed Davis, Sr.
ED! As I've advised before DON'T DO that WEBTV crap!!!
You can find a "garage sale" computer that may not be slick enough to run MS Train Sim, but is PERFECTLY good for cruising the internet and screwing around DIRT CHEAP ... LOOK around for 486 and Pentium II machiens with less that 128 meg ram, less than 500 Megahertz ... you can find a REAL TOY on the cheap if you don't need a supercomputer. With monitor, printer, modem and all ...
WebTV is going under ... it's about to be absorbed into MSN and if you DON'T have a WebTV, you won't get screwed by Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer's latest psychotic episodes. Think I'm bashing Microsoft? Click here if you have an MPEG video viewer:
http://www.fuckedcompany.com/images/dancemonkeyboy.mpeg
The above is 3.14 megabytes of video file. If you've got high-speed, it'll be up in a jiffy. If you're doing 56k modem, could take awhile. STILL worth it though to see "Boomboom Ballmer" in action - he's the CEO fo Microsoft now. SELL ... SHORT!
(this clip is better than being handled the cab seat in a redbird ... TAKE the tiem to view it) ... and remember, off-topic HERE on subtalk.
LOVE THE CLIP, IT'S SCARY, BUT NO MORE SO THAN THE BEHAVIOR OF THE MICROSOFT MONOPOLY EMPIRE. EVERYTIME I GET INTO ADVANCE WORK WITH ACCESS AND EXCEL, I ALWAYS FIND ANNOYING BUGS THAT TOTAL SCREW REAL GOOD PROJECTS, THINGS LIKE REPORTS THAT WORK FOR MONTHS AND EVEN YEARS ALL OF SUDDEN FAILING TO WORK PROPERLY WHEN THE CURRENT MONTH HAS MORE THAN ONE DIGIT. THAT HAPPENED TO ME LAST YEAR, I SET UP REPORTING DATABASE FOR AN EMPLOYMENT AGENCY THAT WAS STATE FUNDED TO HELP THOSE GETTING BACK ON THEIR FEET FROM ALCOHOLISM AND DRUG ADDICTION. THEY HAD TO REPORT THEIR ACTIVITY (CLIENTS INTERVIEW, PLACED ETC)EACH MONTH TO ALBANY. THE REPORTS WERE GREAT FROM NOVEMBER 1999 UNTILL SEPTEMBER 2000, FOR SOME REASON, WHEN THEY GENERATED TO REPORTS FOR OCTOBER 2000 AND YEAR TO DATE 2000, THEY TOTALLY BLEW UP. YET YOU COULD GO BACK AND ASK FOR SEPTEMBER AND 9 MONTHS YEAR TO DATE AND THEY RAN FINE. GO FIGURE.
Yeah I second the vote, skip WebTV and get yourself a real PC. Even AOL will prove more useful to you over time. My mom & dad were surfing the net on my old hand-me-down 486/66 until this year when it finally died. You don't need a whole lot of power to read SubTalk. :-)
-Dave
If you've got a Costco around, a decent system without a printer can be had for under $600.
Until I saw your name in you post, I was wondering what the hell a "big edirt manL" was. Now I know better, Big Ed IRT Man 1!
-Hank
I was reading it as "bige dirt man 1". Thanks, Hank!
Chuck Greene
The 1 is really not a 1 but is an l.
The l stands for Ed's fondness for the Chicago l's.
I think that he likes the Chicago l's now as much as he used to enjoy the New York el's. He has made many visits to Chicago since he has been living in the west.
You sure it's 'L' and not '1'? Folks who learned how to type in the pre-Selectric days used the 'l' as a one. Many typewriters didn't have a '1' key.
FYI, my high school typing textbook still demonstrated this technique. That was in 1995.
-Hank
>> Many typewriters didn't have a '1' key. <<
I can vouch for that. When I learned to type on a manual machine in high school back in *cough* 1979 *cough*, about half of the manual typewriters we had did in fact lack a numeral one key, and we were indeed instructed to use a lower-case "L" instead. We only had a couple of electric ones, but I recall they all did have numeral 1 keys.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
It's an L; he has explained his affection for the Chicago el on this board.
>>> You sure it's 'L' and not '1'? Folks who learned how to type in the pre-Selectric days used the 'l' as a one. Many typewriters didn't have a '1' key. <<<
Ed has previously explained that the "manl" portion of his handle refers to the "Manhattan L", i.e. the 3rd Avenue El that he got to ride only once before it was cut back to the Bronx.
Tom
We'll miss ya, Ed.
Not to mention that a number of guys always fondly referred to you as 'BIG E dirt man' because your handle kinda reads that way....;-D
I can read Interboroughese, so I knew better...
As they say in Brooklyn: Chat ya latta,
BMTman
When he explained his handle last year, I jokingly told him that I was reading it as Bi GE dirtman L. He was amused.
While Ed was off for a while last year I stayed in touch & told him that someone on SubTalk was referring to him as bige dirt.
He enjoyed that too!
okay yesterday 6316-6320paired with 6591-6595
and 6421-6425-was paired to 65??-65??
i was on 6516-6520 paired with 6606-6610 which i was on
i will be on the 233 street platform looking for more
oh yeah r142a 7471-7475 testing on white plains rd line
Just read on WJLA TV's website that they ran a story this morning that the first 4 CAF cars will be ready to go by sometime next week. Since we've heard this for so long, lets see if it actually happens. They didn't say exactly which day they would roll.
The Green Line is so overcrowed, they need as many of these CAF cars
as possible. Thank goodness they got them running!
Chuck Greene
Yeah, that extension to Branch Ave. brought on so many more people than expected (of course). At first I think they were attributing it to the free parking they were offering, but that should be over by now and they are getting even more than in the beginning, basically because people in Southern MD are tired of having to drive up Rte. 5. Eventually, they want to run 8 car trains, but that wont be for a couple of years, I would think until all the CAF cars are in and the Breda's have been rehabbed.
Will the CAF cars be in revenue testing, or in permenant service? I haven't heard them revenue testing them yet.
It sounds like they are ready for revenue service. They had been testing and retesting for quite awhile, which led to the ultimate halt in building anymore for a couple of weeks recently, but they're back up and running. They had been suffering from extreme computer glitches which would cause the train to just sit in the station out of confusion among other things. We'll see how long it takes for these to be pulled out of service.
Now, now you should think positively. Besides, I'm sure that the WMATA wouldn't let problematic trains run.
Ok, if the IND Second System were built the New York City Subway System would be a very different place, and a busier place. So in order to build/ complete the IND Second System Plan how much would it cost? 50 Billion-150 Billion? 150-250 Billion? A quarter of a trillion dollars? We know that the benifits would be enourmous, but could it be done when it comes to the Economics of building a subway system in today's world?
According the "The History of the Independent Subway" on this site, it was going to be 100 route miles. The rule of thumb is $1 billion/mile, so $100 billion to build it. I'd probably tack on 10% for political BS.
1 billion a mile is what you have to pay for graft. I don't think any of this is getting done through graft.
Even the LA Subway didn't cost that much.
Are there any maps of the unbuilt lines? Such as an actual subway map with the unbuilt lines superimposed on them, similar to the fantasy maps on this site?
Thanks
Yes, I have one, and they are available at the Transit Museum (among other places) in that boxed set of 12 maps, second edition.
Elias
A qualified yes, it could be done, but only with enormous public/political support. As to costs, the corruption 'tax' will be substantial, but OTOH, if builders were given long term slices of this pie, maybe they woud be willing to give discounted prices.
In another post the rule of thumb is given as $1B/mile. This figure is probably right although outrageous on the face of it. As to whether it should be done, OF COURSE! And frankly, no matter how much waste, fraud, abuse and corruption, the bottom line from Keynes still applies; all of this money circulates as high grade employment/taxes and benefits the entire society And unlike DOD waste, the ulimate product is worthwhile.
The 4 is split this weekend at Borough Hall. How is that going to work? It looks like trains will be single-tracked between Borough Hall and Atlantic Avenue. Why not just truncate the 4 at Borough Hall and let the 2 and 3 alone handle the rest of Brooklyn?
The first weekend in September, the 3 runs between 148th and 42nd; the 1 takes over the 3 in Brooklyn and a shuttle bus handles Cortlandt, Rector, and South Ferry. The N and R will be running Manhattan-bound via the Manhattan Bridge -- isn't it convenient that the W is already cut short? -- so enjoy a ride on an R-32 or R-46 over the bridge, or grab your camera and snap away from a Q going the other way. (Are there any unobstructed views from the bridge walkway?) Most interesting of all, all Queens Boulevard service -- E, F, and R alike -- will be running through 63rd Street. Roosevelt Islanders never had it so good! If you've never seen the connection through a railfan window, you won't have a long wait for an R-32. You'll also get to see the rarely used West 4th connection. I wonder why the E wasn't suspended as it usually is when 53rd is closed. Can I assume all trains will run local between 21st Street and Roosevelt Avenue?
Wait a minute? The R is going over the bridge, and the 1 is going to Brooklyn?
You got that right. Labor Day weekend. Load your cameras.
This'll be a fun weekend, next weekend too. The 1 to New Lots is Sept 1 and 2 only though.
The 1 going to Brookly? Somehow that just doesn't sound right.
It is going to Bklyn to take 3 service to New Lots for some reason the 3 is turning at 42nd St. Shuttle buses take Chambers to South Ferry. This is Sept 1 and 2 only.
Lately, the late night 1 has been terminating at Chambers.
That can be done at night without interfering much with the 2, but on weekends there is too much service on the express tracks to terminate the 1 there.
So the 3 is terminating at 42nd, since expresses can relay between 42nd and 34th without getting in anyone's way. Locals can't, so the 1 has to take over where the 3 leaves off.
At least that's what seems to be going on.
Most interesting of all, all Queens Boulevard service -- E, F, and R alike -- will be running through 63rd Street. Roosevelt Islanders never had it so good!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just not possible! If ALL Queens trains to 63rd tunnel, then there will be no direct connection to the Lexingtion IRT.
Think about that all you fellow Queens residents who know just what kind of chaos that will create.
I wish there would be a columnist in the Post or Daily News who could follow this stuff closely, and bring the TA to task when idiotic decisions are made, so that they can hopefully be prevented in the future.
I assume paper transfers will be handed out at Lex/63. The announcement says nothing about paper transfers and recommends the 7. I'm not sure why the R needs to be detoured, since the N shares its tunnel. Maybe Queens Plaza needs to be closed entirely, for some reason.
(Somehow I expected you to pipe in.)
They already hand out transfers at 63rd on weekends, regardless of the GO.
But for the next few weeks, I won't be going to the city on weekends. I'll be heading in the other direction, towards Long Island.
And just what does that final statement about me piping in mean?
They already hand out transfers at 63rd on weekends, regardless of the GO.
Do they also hand out transfers at 59th, for those trying to transfer from the 4/5/6?
And just what does that final statement about me piping in mean?
You have a tendency to complain here often about Queens Boulevard happenings. That's all.
Honestly, I am not sure if the TA gives out transfers at 59th for those wishing to reach the 63rd station.
I do complain alot about the happenings on Queens Blvd. I used to rant and rave. Some things drive me crazy, and are the result of supervision, not the T/O's and C/R's, so it's useless complaining. I feel bad for the T/O's and C/R's as they have to hear the complaints that are the result of supervisions' stupidity.
If everything is being sent via 63rd St, then the only logical explanation would be that Queensboro Master is going to take over control of Queens Plaza. To do this, they need to turn off all the signals currently controlled by Queens plaza.
Correct. G.O.4079, this weekend (Fri. 8/24-Mon. 8/27). E/F only through 63 tube. E replaces R to Whitehall. Get to view switching at 63/Lex. for E's to Broadway/BMT. Radio frequencies change north of 57/7 when using 63 tube. Queens Plaza, 23/Ely, Lex/53 and 5 Ave/53 isolated again. G.O.4084, northbound service from DeKalb diverted from tunnel to bridge.
According to the service advisory, the R is also running via 63rd. For the first time ever (AFAIK), scheduled 63rd Street service will be operating to both 57/6 and 57/7.
It's also happening the following weekend, including Labor Day.
Is there some way we (the public, or at least the subset of the public who posts on SubTalk) could see the actual G.O. text? If it's distributed in electronic form and it's not considered private information, it would be easy enough for someone to post it here periodically. If it's distributed in print, I guess my request depends on the willingness of its readers to do a lot of typing (or the availability of a scanner and OCR software).
>According to the service advisory, the R is also running via 63rd.
During the first diversion through the connection, all three (EFR) did run through the tunnel. I thought the E through 6th Av. and back to it's route at W4 would replace the combined E/R service to Broadway for good, but they went back to it. Now it is called E during weekday midnights, (To Whitehall) and R weekend days, to 95th.
>For the first time ever (AFAIK), scheduled 63rd Street service will be operating to both 57/6 and 57/7.
During the '95 bridge closing, the F (to 21st St.) and Q (rerouted to Bway) operated together on Sunday midnights only (weekday midnights the bridge was open. On Sat. the bridge didn't close until about 6 AM after the F midnight schedule ended)
They can change at Roosevelt/74th for the #7, which they in turn can ride to Grand Central for the Lex IRT.
They can change at Roosevelt/74th for the #7, which they in turn can ride to Grand Central for the Lex IRT.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I guess they can. At least those who ride east of Roosevelt. But do you really know how congested 74th would be if all those poor people had to transfer there for the 7? It would add another 10 or 15 minutes to the ride to Manhattan.
Holy Pillman!!
We're going to Brooklyn....
just like days of yonder...
HERE is a NY! report on the dumping of the redbirds. If you live out of NY1s area, I highly advise you download the video. Great shots of 7814 getting lifted plus interior shots of 7867.
Peace.
ANDEE
How do you download it (I should say from where). I tried. All I get is the html page.
Click on the dialup download icon
Peace.
ANDEE
Got it. Thanks
Can anyone recommend a book to learn more about what Robert Moses did for the city? I want a good complete book.
"The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York" by Robert A. Caro, published by Random House, 1975. It is listed in the bibliography section on this site and can be ordered from Amazon.com.
Just get a Long Island highway map.
Never mention that name to a Transit Buff.
Breathe the polluted air, and you'll know what he did for the city.
Drive around East Tremont and see what he did!!
Yeah right.
Drive around Bushwick, a nice Highwayless neighborhood, and see what he did.
Drive around Riverdale, a neighborhood with a highway, and see what he did.
Drive around Red Hook and down Third Avenue in Brooklyn and see what he did.
Red Hook was always skanky, how did the Gowanus change that?
Sorry, but people are just trying to blame something tangible (Moses) for complicated processes they fail to understand.
I think he might be talking about the BQE trench down Hicks St. that split Columbia St. etc. from what would become "Cobble Hill," hurting those neighborhoods closer to the water.
Seth
Columbia Street is right across from a container port. Few would want to live right there. That last block between Hicks and Columbia would be the transition between Columbia Street and Cobble Hill anyway.
Without the huge trench it would be a much easier transition. Columbia St.'s doing pretty well as a neighborhood now, and, perhaps, if it hadn't been cut off from Cobble Hill, it would've started doing better sooner rather than later.
Seth
You are exactly right. It is amazing how NYCers love to use the name "Robert Moses" as the personification of the deviltry of building the highways around NY. Of course, every city in this country has highways and they were built according to the plans of lots of people and often had a person or two in charge of the design and construction. If Mr. Moses had not been around, someone else would have built almost the exact same highway system. If NY had not gotten the highways built, traffic would be completely intolerable or the city might have become deserted as suburb-to-suburb highways would have been built (maybe) and pockets of replacement cities would have taken over. In fact some obvious highways are clearly missing from the city (like Interstate 78 from the Wmbg Br. to JFK Airport, the completion of the the Clearview Expressway to the Cross Island Pkway and the Southern State, the Triboro connecting at 96th rather than 125th) not that they should have been built, but NY is just like other cities: some highways were built, some weren't, some were built right where it is convenient, some in weird locations. What makes NYC different is that the "Tolerant, Open-minded, Hate-is-not-a-family-value" people of NYC have to think there was some unique demon who "destroyed" NY (quite an intolerant and hateful attitude, don't you think?) by doing what was done somewhat more quietly and anonymously everywhere around the country, and which most people actually like(and tolerant people understand that different people have different likes and dislikes). In fact, New York is one of the few cities where despite all the highways and traffic still has a large frequent running transit system.
Next week: How my back yard is as pleasant as Central Park and I can just step outside the back door and be in it :-). Also, How I actually enjoy being in NYC and drive my wife crazy by parking in Trenton and taking NJT in and always using the Fun Pass to hop on busses and trains and avoiding taxis, so please don't demonize me.
Look at Greenwich Village, 34th Street, and Fire Island (highwayless) and see what his unbuilt highway didn't destroy.
What the hell are you doing? Have some sort of thought allergy?
I pointed out that there are neighborhoods with highways that are still good, and those without them that have been destroyed. Your comments add nothing to the discussion.
Perhaps it's both a combination of Moses and sociological trends that caused soem neighborhoods to become impoverished?
Is there any room here to consider that MANY forces may have been at work here?
Absolutely--it's very complex.
People demonize Moses for all sorts of things, some rightly, some wrongly. He was a very thorough and very powerful exponent of the prevailing ideas of his times. He didn't create the style of highways and housing that came to dominate in America after the war, but he did vastly expedite their construction to the New York region. He didn't create the automobile, but he took considerable steps to reshape New York to accommodate it and the social patterns that ensued.
Moses actually did create the style of highways we have. The Southern State was an unbelievable creation for its time. Except for the Vanderbilt Motor Pkway (which Caro never mentions once, as if it never existed) there was simply no way to get out to the island without spending hours on the one lane each way Northern Blvd or Sunrise Hway by car. Caro estimated on a Sunday morning it took hours just to get to Roslyn from Little Neck on Northern. But with the parkways it was easy to go eastward on LI from Queens, and with no commercial traffic either.
Oh, Moses created the Parkway style, no doubt. But that's not the dominant style of highway, countrywide. (Earlier posts had focused on the Gowanus and the CBE, which was the style of highway I meant.)
It adds everything to the discussion. What do you mean those without them have been destroyed. Do you consider Chelsea, and the Village destroyed ?
Because you are ADDING nothing to the discussion. All you do is show your command of geography by pointing out which neighborhoods don't have highways. I don't care about your geography skills.
Now, if you could prove those neighborhoods would have been destoyed if highways had been built through there, then what you're saying would have some validity.
You're asking for the impossible. How do you expect Joe to prove what would have happened had history turned out differently? The best he can do is make an educated guess -- and that's the best you can do, too.
It's clear that a highway placed through the middle of an existing neighborhood, most of whose residents don't have cars, will damage the neighborhood to some extent. Some neighborhoods might be able to pull it off and even thrive regardless while other neighborhoods might have been on the verge of death without the help of the highway, but the impact of a highway on such a neighborhood is invariably negative. In the case of the Lower Manhattan Expressway, I'd say the impact would be quite severe, and the benefit would be marginal compared to a widened SIE and twinned Goethals Bridge, which would be much cheaper and less disruptive.
<< It's clear that a highway placed through the middle of an existing neighborhood, most of whose residents don't have cars, will damage the neighborhood to some extent. >>
Building the Cross-Bronx Expressway certainly killed the South Bronx. Caro discusses this extensively in his biography of Moses.
It is clear that the Cross Bronx had a major impact.
I won't go so far as to say that the neighborhoods wouldn't have failed regardless.
Building the Cross-Bronx Expressway certainly killed the South Bronx
I don't buy that, no matter what Caro said. Take a look sometime at the Cross-Bronx. Note that it has a very narrow right of way for a busy highway. Building it did not require the wholesale destruction of whole neighborhoods, but only of a few buildings on each affected block - note also that most of the blocks run perpendicular to the right of way, minimizing the property losses. There also are plenty of bridges, so it's not as if the affected neighborhoods are cut in half.
>>> Building it did not require the wholesale destruction of whole neighborhoods, but only of a few buildings on each affected block - note also that most of the blocks run perpendicular to the right of way, minimizing the property losses. There also are plenty of bridges, so it's not as if the affected neighborhoods are cut in half. <<<
I am too far away in time and space to comment directly on the Cross Bronx Expressway, but the destroying of neighborhoods by highways does not depend on the number of residences destroyed, rather in the loss of lines of communication. An east-west highway typically removes a bock of houses, and the people who lived in that block, who had social contacts with those on the blocks north and south of them. In addition, there may be out migration by those on the blocks adjacent to the new highway because friends who were displaced are no longer there, or a dislike of living near a highway. Once they are gone, the social ties are weakened, and if streets are dead ended at the highway, requiring a few block trip to get to the same street on the other side of the highway, there will be a drop in casual traffic back and forth. The highway becomes a de facto boundary to two new neighborhoods on either side of it. The two smaller neighborhoods tend to have weaker social ties than the one larger neighborhood they replace, and may have new shopping and business patterns.
Tom
Building it did not require the wholesale destruction of whole neighborhoods, but only of a few buildings on each affected block - note also that most of the blocks run perpendicular to the right of way, minimizing the property losses. There also are plenty of bridges, so it's not as if the affected neighborhoods are cut in half.
I am too far away in time and space to comment directly on the Cross Bronx Expressway, but the destroying of neighborhoods by highways does not depend on the number of residences destroyed, rather in the loss of lines of communication. An east-west highway typically removes a bock of houses, and the people who lived in that block, who had social contacts with those on the blocks north and south of them. In addition, there may be out migration by those on the blocks adjacent to the new highway because friends who were displaced are no longer there, or a dislike of living near a highway. Once they are gone, the social ties are weakened, and if streets are dead ended at the highway, requiring a few block trip to get to the same street on the other side of the highway, there will be a drop in casual traffic back and forth. The highway becomes a de facto boundary to two new neighborhoods on either side of it. The two smaller neighborhoods tend to have weaker social ties than the one larger neighborhood they replace, and may have new shopping and business patterns.
Good points, but I wouldn't say that they apply too well in the specific case of the Cross-Bronx. Its right of way is so narrow that few entire blocks of houses were lost. In most cases, it took only three or four buildings on each side of the street. In addition, the large number of bridges keeps the number of dead-ends to a minimum.
Clearly, the construction of the Cross-Bronx did some harm to the neighborhoods along the way. But it would be really stretching matters to say that it destroyed any of them. More realistically, it (slightly) accelerated the declines that were already in progress and which would have continued had nothing been built.
It's also worth noting that some of New York's most run-down neighborhoods aren't anywhere close to highways. Bedford-Stuyvesant and Bushwick are two that come to mind.
You're asking for the impossible. How do you expect Joe to prove what would have happened had history turned out differently?
No, HE is asking for the impossible. If he wants to point out nice areas that don't have highways, he is the one who has to prove that those neighborhoods would have been destroyed with highways.
If he can't take the challenge, he should never have brought it upon himself.
What did he do, errect housing projects?
There's another story, do we have time??
<< There's another story, do we have time?? >>
No.
The Power Broker himself....well. It's hard to say what he did for the city in a few short sentences. Housing projects, Jones Beach replacing Coney Island as the primary shore destination, expressways, Lincoln Center, two worlds Fairs, Shea Stadium, transit crossings, and oh yeah, the COMPLETE betrayal of our beloved Subway and rail network. The Van Wyck Expressway and someof the bridges built under his guidance could have had rail access as part of the deal, but it would never happen. Moses was POWERFUL enough to say the least, enough to bring mayors to their kness and assist in nearly emptying the city in the 1950's and '60's.
Take a look at the BILLIONS that are being spent for the Airtrain, proposed 2nd Ave Subway, infrastructure rehab, and rebuiliding of the city's crumbling housing stock. You can thank Moses, Austin Tobin, and all of their cronies for letting things rot while their grand schemes were put into fruition. I read The Power Broker and even though this is a transit and not a road message board, the imapact of that book cannot be overlooked. Caro's work is excellent, to say the least, for showing how power corrupts, how the city works, and how it was nearly brought to it's knees in the late 60's and 70's. Imagine a city with first class subways and buses to every corner of it, better housing, and less suburbs to compete with. It's probably the city we'd have today if Moses never came to fruition.
Imagine a city with first class subways and buses to every corner of it, better housing, and less suburbs to compete with. It's probably the city we'd have today if Moses never came to fruition.
It makes you comfortable to believe that, so fine. Some children find comfort in believing Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy and that doesn't hurt anyone else.
Look at any other older city in America, only New York had Robert Moses, yet are we any worse off than any of them?
Detroit never had a Robert Moses figure.
Sorry, but nearly everything Robert Moses did still had to be approved by a legislature, if his ideas were not the prevailing ideas of the time, he would never have had any power. Eventually he did lose power. Moses wanted, but failed to build much more than he actually did build (remember that next time you drive on the Lower Manhattan Expressway). Moses didn't die while continuing to be the "Power Broker," he was removed as the city's arterial coordinator in 1966 and his TBTA became part of the MTA in 1968. I don't know when he was removed from the helm of the Parks Department, but it was around this time. He lived for 13 more years.
Sure, my vision of life without Robert Moses never existing was close to Utopia, but we would be a lot closer to a perfect system instead of all the catching up that the New York City transit system has been doing in the last 30 years.
As for Detroit being worse off than New York..sure, other cities didn't have Robert Moses, but they were stupid enough to tear up their trolley systems and either bring him in (like Portland, Oregon did) or follow his methods in transportation planning. I think the reason that New York turned out better was because it had a well laid out transit system that managed to survive his era. LA had a great system of streetcars at one time, but you can thank "What's good for GM is good for the USA" and all the other auto zealots for msss transit being nonexistent there.
Oh, it is NOT true that the legislature had to approve of everything that Moses did. As the state parks commisioner, yes that would apply. The Power Broker goes into long detail about the "fourth branch of government", also known as the independent authority. Moses was smart enough to write the charter for the TBA and just as he did when he drafted bills for Al Smith up in Albany. Once everyone wanted to bring him down, it was too late. The city could not approve of a project of his, but no one wanted to get on his bad side and he still had his office on Ward's Island where he was in the middle of it all - literally. The chapter describing him as an Emperor and demading the treatmest as one is one of the best in the book.
I am not saying that my view on this is the end all, but after reading it, books on the subway, and seeing how long it's taken to correct the years of deferred work on our infrastructure, I think it's safe to say that New York was lucky to have a very balanced transit system to pull us through.
The thing about Robert Moses is that while he had some wrong ideas, most notably his dismissal of transit, at least he could get things done. New York politicians today can't get anything accomplished no matter how well-intentioned the ideas.
It's not easy trying to figure out which is worse.
Moses career really has to be split into the period of say, pre-Triborough and post-Triborough. The Moses that was around getting things done for New York, and one who had respect (or at least the fear) of the politicians above him definitely did more good than harm for the city, which was badly in need of a makeover after the Tammany corruption of the Walker era.
The post-Triborough Moses, whose best access to money for public projects was through his beloved bridges and their tolls, had a definite interest in term of power in promoting highway transportation over subways. And by the late 1930s there was really nobody in city or state government in New York that had enough power, guts or cunning to undercut Moses, who no one denies was a brilliant tactician between 1920 and 1960.
If Moses had dropped dead in 1937, after the Henry Hudson Bridge/Parkway was built but before his battles over the Brooklyn Battery Bridge, the BQE/Gowanus/Cross Bronx Expressway and his urban renewal fights, along with the Joseph Papp/Tavern on the Green and World's Fair debacles, his public image today would be far greater than where it stands now.
If Moses had dropped dead in 1937, after the Henry Hudson Bridge/Parkway was built but before his battles over the Brooklyn Battery Bridge, the BQE/Gowanus/Cross Bronx Expressway and his urban renewal fights, along with the Joseph Papp/Tavern on the Green and World's Fair debacles, his public image today would be far greater than where it stands now.
What do you mean by the Joseph Papp/Tavern on the Green debacle? (Right, I know, the food there won't be winning any awards, but I don't think that's what you had in mind.)
I'm not so certain that I'd call the World's Fair a debacle. It didn't work out financially, that's undeniable, but it was an impressive spectacle that left many people with vivid and happy memories (including me, even though I was a small child at the time). That's got to count for something.
It was actually two seperate things which occurred at the same time in the mid-1950s. Moses sought to expand the Tavern In the Green by ripping out some surrounding park areas. In doing so, he threw away his image cultivated over the previous 25 years as the savior of the NYC park system and developed enemies among the residents of CPW and neighbornig streets, who unlike residents other area of the city, had both the money and influence to get their case heard in the media (a forerunner to the Central Park playgorund battle over the 63rd St. tunnel in the early 1970s).
Papp, meanwhile, was attempting to begin his Shakespeare in the Park series, which for some reason Moses was vehamently against, resulting in another public relations battle that the parks commissioner ended up losing. By the mid-1950s Moses' arrogance had grown to the point that he couldn't see his own power base being lost if he treated everyone with disdain, including those people (rich ones who live near the park and/or go to Shakespeare performances) and institutions (both the Democratic-leaning New York Times and the Republican-leaning New York Herald-Tribune -- the very liberal N.Y. Post had been after Moses for years) who did have the power eventually to cut him down.
My parents remember both 1939 and 1964 W.F, and their opinion is the earlier one was far superior. Of course, thanks to Moses, the IND branch and BMT service did not run to the later one.
> Of course, thanks to Moses, the IND branch and BMT service did not run to the later one.
Huh? Moses may have had something to do with ripping out the IND tracks from Kew Gardens to the fair, but he certainly had nothing to do with assigning the Flushing line to the IRT and the Astoria line to the BMT. There was no BMT service to the 1964/5 fair because the BMT no longer could run on the Flushing line. For that matter, there was no through service from the BMT subway to the 1939/40 World's Fair either - passengers had to change at Queensboro Plaza for the "Q" car World's Fair trains. And they could still change there for (IRT) World's Fair trains during the 1964/5 fair.
If the World's Fair "Superexpress" trains had stopped at QBP instead of skipping it, then BMT riders would have had direct service at least as good as for the 1939/40 fair. Actually, since there was a free transfer from the BMT to the 7 at Times Square in 1964/5, it can be argued that they did. But whoever made the decision that the World's Fair specials should not stop at QBP, it certainly wasn't Robert Moses.
And it wasn't Robert Moses who was responsible for getting rid of the the IND's World's Fair Railroad.
The IND never intended the facility to be permanent. It was completely removed in 1940.
Blaming all of society's ills on Robert Moses is so much easier than actually figuring out their true causes.
<< And it wasn't Robert Moses who was responsible for getting rid of the the IND's World's Fair Railroad.
The IND never intended the facility to be permanent. It was completely removed in 1940. >>
The book "Subway to the World's Fair," by Frederick Kramer, covers this in extensive detail.
I'm not so certain that I'd call the World's Fair a debacle.
I wouldn't either, nor would my wife. I visited the '64-'65 Fair many times, what with living in Poughkeepsie... just a quick trip down on the train to Grand Central and the Flushing line to the fair. My wife was there (from Michigan) on her senior trip in 1965... I still wonder if I might have seen her then, since we were most definitely there at the same time (I have some now-faded Ektachromes which I took the first two days she was there).
I do recall my parents thinking the '39-'40 Fair was better, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey I liked the World's Fair too, and I even got to go there for the groundbreaking in April 1960 at Age 3 (one of my first memories in fact -- They took us there from Manhattan via hydrafoil, I chased a fly under my chair while Rockefeller was speaking at the ceremony and later got mad because we couldn't sit at the table I picked out during the luncheon in the New York State Pavillion, which was the only holdover from the `39 Fair. How dare they ignore the wishes of a 3-year-old!). But the problem for Moses was that in his arrogance he derided the people who put on the 1939-40 Fair and promised his would surpass that. Then he proceeded to tick off a lot of people both inside and outside NYC while the Fair was being built, and because of that had to rely on corporations to provide the biggest Fair attractions instead of national pavillions like at other WFs.
I thought the Ford ('drive' your Mustang convertable and see the dinosaurs) and GM (Futurama) pavillions were great (slightly sacreligious to post on SubTalk, I guess) and I liked the diarama of the metropolitan area in the redone NYS Pavillion (even if someone did pee in the little car we rode around the thing in). And I really liked taking those brand new R-33/36 WF cars from Grand Central to Willets Point. But for Moses, the fact he promised more than he could deliver and the fact that the Fair paid back on only 40 percent of its costs meant it was a debacle for its investors and for Moses, since the blood was in the water for Rocky and Lindsey to take his power bases away over the next four years.
and because of that had to rely on corporations to provide the biggest Fair attractions instead of national pavillions like at other WFs.
By the time the planning for the new fair began, Seattle had already been awarded the World's Fair for 1962. Each country is only allowed one fair per decade, which meant that the 1964 New York World's Fair was not accredited by the international agency for fairs and expositions.
I wonder, was the World's Fair like a temporary Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow?
It was divided into sections, but there wasn't a set-in-stone pattern -- the Ford and GM pavillions were near the U.S. Pavillon, which is in turn near where the tennis center is today. The amusement park type rides, such as the log flume, were on the other side of the LIE from the rest of the fair, while the Bell Telephone building and the Disney pavillion (I still can't stand to hear "It's a Small World After All") were located on the eastern side of the fairgrounds. Nothing really EPCOT about Walt's site, unless you considered the talking Abe Lincoln high-tech for 1964.
Now those brand new touch-tone pay phones that were all over the place -- that was cool, especially for a 7-year-old...
We visited the fair on July 20, 1965. I can remember seeing Mexican folk dancing at their pavilion, seeing the dinosaur exhibit (even got a sticker on my shirt), and riding on the US Rubber ferris wheel (my father worked for US Rubber/Uniroyal at the time). We also took in the porpoise show and rode on the sky ride. There was a Lithuanian cross somewhere on the fairgrounds which my father photographed. The fair website doesn't mention where it was. One thing we did not do was go up to the top of the NY State Towers. Are they still maintained at all? It seems as though the elevators are still about halfway up each tower ever since the fair closed. The Unisphere still looks great.
Want to know the weirdest part? I have no recollection of Shea Stadium, even though we rode to the fair on the LIRR from what was left of Penn Station. Nor do I have any recollection of Penn Station other than the booming announcer's voice over the loudspeakers.
The elevators have not moved in the State Towers for years and years. Probably not functional.
The Unisphere was recently given a rehab, IIRC.
--Mark
The cables to the elevators still jangle against each other in a breeze. There's an art installation on the tower right now, visible each night. There are several bright blue lights and some flashbulb-type lights that go off intermittently, as well.
I posed for a photo last fall at about the same spot where my father photographed my sister and me in 1965. It was north of the Unisphere and the angle was such that both it and the NY State Towers are visible. The trees are a bit taller now and I'm taller and older with less hair.:-) If I have time this October, I may head out to Flushing and gat a closer view of the towers.
that's so cool... must bring back some memories... supposing u guys got along...
...and the Disney pavillion (I still can't stand to hear "It's a Small World After All")...
I thought that was the one played at the Pepsi pavillion... if it was Disney's, then what was Pepsi's?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not sure what was at the Pepsi Pavillion, though after 37 years you may be right about it. I just remember even asa 7-year-old being bored to death with the Disney display and wanting to go to the Ford Pavillion to see the dinosaurs.
I don't think Disney had a pavillion as such, but they designed and built many of the exhibits at other pavillions, such as General Electric, Ford and Pepsi Cola.
Wasn't that Coke's theme at the Fair? And then Disney used it at Disney World in one of its exhibits?
Would anybody know the whereabouts of the 2 time capsules that were buried by GE? I recall reading about them since one capsule was from the 1939 Worlds Fair and the other from the 1964 Worlds Fair? Did GE take them back or are they since in the park somewhere.
Thanks,
Paul
Would anybody know the whereabouts of the 2 time capsules that were buried by GE? I recall reading about them since one capsule was from the 1939 Worlds Fair and the other from the 1964 Worlds Fair? Did GE take them back or are they since in the park somewhere.
That was Westinghouse that had the time capsule. It is still in the park, on the site of the Westinghouse exhibit. In 5,000 years archaeologists will find a credit card, a Beatles record, an electric toothbrush and a bikini bathing suit. These items should be of enormous benefit to them in figuring out what typical late 20th century life was about.
Those time capsules are by the main entrance to the park, by the ramp leading to the LIRR and the 7. Their location is clearly marked.
Thinking back, I also remember seeing the Santa Maria replica by the marina.
Those time capsules are by the main entrance to the park, by the ramp leading to the LIRR and the 7. Their location is clearly marked.
I don't thik so. This is from the Queens Chronicle website.
TIME CAPSULES: Two time capsules were deposited 50 feet below Flushing Meadows at the World’s Fair of 1939 and 1969. They contain a record of civilization to be unearthed in 5,000 years. The Westinghouse Corporation used every scientific advancement to construct the capsules in such a way that they will last until 6939 A.D. A record of their location was sent in a special book to libraries and places of safe repository around the world, including a monastery in Tibet. The capsules include thousands of pages of microfilmed information, examples of common objects of the time and a message to the future from Albert Einstein. A monument marking the site of the capsules is located in a groove to the west of the N.Y. State Pavilion.
There is no way that this could be confused as being close to the main entrance. It is also located where the Westinghouse Pavillion stood. The spot is marked.
Thats more infomation then what the book gives. Pehaps I'll check it out this weekend ( if time permits )and check out the New York City map at the Queens Museum. The map was also built for the Worlds Fair if I'm not mistaken.
Thanks,
Paul
The Wall Street Journal had a funny piece on time capsules a couple of weeks ago. It turns out that many of the time capsules buried in past years can no longer be found. The people who buried them often left frustratingly imprecise directions, sometimes by reference to landmarks that have disappeared in the intervening years.
I stand corrected then. I know I saw what appeared to be spot markers for them, but I could be mistaken.
If I have time this weekend, I going to take a look and see if I can find that marker. Thanks for help guys :-)
Paul
Thanks for the correction Stephen. I seen the Worlds Fair book and it shows a picture of all the items that were placed in the capsule. It's amazing that all those items were able to fit inside. According to the book, a marker was left to indicate the location of the capsules.
I wonder if its still there. Now, where did I place that Worlds Fair map?
Thanks,
Paul
It is Westinghouse. I signed the book and the mircofilmed image of that page is in the capsule.
I wonder, was the World's Fair like a temporary Experimental Prototype Community Of
Tomorrow?
What kind of Mickey Mouse idea is that?
;-D Andrew
MAKE DISNEY LEAVE THIS CITY PLEASE
A pretty Goofy one, if you ask me.
Forgive a stupid question but, do we still have World's Fairs? I haven't heard of any in quite some time. Thanks.
Yes, we do... the next big one is Expo 2005 Aichi in Japan.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lisbon hosted a World's Fair in 1998 that received scant press coverage in the USA.
Whatever one might say about the 1964-1965 World's Fair, the fact remains that putting on something like that in New York today would be, well, utterly beyond the realm of possibility. It simply could not happen. And that's the real tragedy.
The little cars which carried the people around the 64-65 fair had there own musical horn that was after a while nerve racking to say the least,there was this huge car that one could go under and see all the things that make a car go it had all kinds of lights blinking on and off,also there was this orange-red future looking truck with trailer which i took a photo of,my parents also said the 39-40 fair was far better than the 64-65 fair it had a lot more pratical things to see including a fantastic steam locomotive exibit with about ten engines along with a GG-1 locomotive which one could go into the cab.
What do you mean by the Joseph Papp/Tavern on the Green debacle?
Read Caro's book. Disagree with its thesis, if you like, but read the book first. He devotes a chapter or two to these events.
I know that people ask alot of times these same questions but I just want to get it. Was there a time that the C train ran full length 10 car train ever in its career? I know that back in the mid 1990s the C train used to run 4 car train during midday hours if I recall. Was there a time that the G ran 10 car length train ever in its career?, also back in the early 1990s when the G ran R32? was it a full 10 car length R32 if anyone here has recollections? Don't worry about the #3 line I know it has been a 9 car line ever since. P.S. When the R143 is in full service to help the B division car shortage could both C & G lines return to 10 car length?
In my recollection, the "C" and "G" trains NEVER ran more than 8 car trains. In fact, up until 1987, the maximum number of cars on the "B", "N", "Q/QB", and "R/RR" trains was 8 cars. Tony
Now what is with those 7 and 9 car markers you see every once in awhile?
OLD signs.....when it was the land of R1/9's.
When the "C" was a Concourse Express all the way down 8th Avenue in the 30's and 40's, it may have been 10 cars. Other than that, as a "CC" and "C" local, I don't remember it being longer than 8 cars.
The "GG" and then "G" was primarily always 8 cars. When the "GG" in the early eighties was running R10's, which were in the worst possible shape, they were 7 cars long.
The 10 car R32 was probably a spare E needed for service that they didn't bother to break down into a 6 or 8 car train.
Are you certain the "GG" was 7 car MU's when it was R-10s???
I never remember seeing a 7 car R marker, only 4,6, 8 and 10 on the IND.
If my memory serves me correctly there is one on D1 tk. (southbound local) within Continental Ave. station.
Why does the C operate with only 8 cars and the G with only 6??? Someone please tell me!!!!
The TA does not enough cars to make these trains longer.
Why not take the 32s off the R , send them to the G , send the extra A-A pairs of 46s to the Franklin Shuttle. Keep the 68s on the Shuttle, send the remaining 46s to the R and extend the Franklin Shuttle to Coney Island. Then from there, take the 32s off the C, put them on the A and put the 44s on the C. That way the C could run with 8 44s and G could run with 10 32s. And there you have it, a full length train!!!!
Tradition, tradition.:-)
The TA runs 8 cars on the C and G lines because ridership on these lines doesn't warrant 10 car trains.
Although the C never deviates from the 8 car trains, every now and then a 10 car R32 can be seen on the G line.
The G doesn't need anything longer. Even during the height of rush hour, the train is only crowded for two or three stops past the last transfer point. The first and last cars are not reflective of the entire train's crowd level.
The train only gets really crowded on the Queens Blvd portion, with people seeking local stops. This will be solved when the V takes over, giving Queens Blvd local customers a 100% chance of getting a full-length train. The G will be shortened to four cars and get cut to Court Square on weekdays from 5AM to 9PM.
During the height of rush hour, some portions of the C do warrant full length trains. But during all other times, even 8 cars seems like overkill. Using 10 cars would require these extra cars be around all day, passengers are spread out more and thus unsafe conditions are present in the less crowded areas, such as Fulton st. Local s/of Utica and CPW local.
These reasons are in addition to the infamous car shortage.
The GG was cut to 7 cars in the late 70s or early 80s.
7-car "GG" trains sounds vaguely familiar about 1980-81-ish. That was the days of graffitti, dirty, loud R-10's on the "GG". The entire system was pretty tacky then from what I remember--real low point for ridership, etc!! Tony
I've heard that 3-car trains ran on the GG during non-rush hours in the R-1/9 days.
I remember that as a little kid.
It's obvious through the various things that they're doing, that the TA plans to make some serious changes over the next ~10-20 years. A few of them are obvious right now.
1) Dump Station Agents over time, replacing them with MVMs. For the time being, the workers are still being kept, but as they retire or transfer to different openings, chances are replacements won't be hired for most of the people leaving. When this is finally complete, I forsee possibly video cameras being implemented, or extra transit cops, to dispense the panic of citizens, but since it'll be a gradual elimination, major public outcry or action won't be necesary.
2) Implement OPTO more often. This is a tough one since most trains run through midtown manhattan, and even on weekends, the crowds can make door closing enough for a conductor in the middle, not to mention the task it would be for the T/O. However, I'd predict that eventually most of the lines that don't go through busy areas will be converted to OPTO at least during the weekends and nights, if not 24/7.
What do you think? Did I miss something? Anything to add or correct?
"through busy areas will be converted to OPTO "
Could you just see the OPTO leaning out for the requied two carlengths....
OPs.... Pity.... That home ball was only one car length away.
Elias
I don't know what the TA master plan is. But I hope it is to match the average national rate of productivity gain over the past 100 years: two percent per year. The TA employs about 45,000 people. At the average rate of productivity gain, in 35 years it would be down to 22,500 people to do the same work it does today.
That's right, I'm talking about half the people doing the the very same work, as the very same quality, as today. If the quality of service goes down, that isn't a productivity gain. If you just contract out, that isn't a productivity gain, because it isn't less people, it's just different people. This is the national average. This is why life is better than 100 years ago -- in every way other than the quality of public services such as schools and transit.
What would happen to the 22,500 people no longer working at the TA?
Let's say the wages of 7,500 are replaced by (relative to inflation) taxes or fares. That would leave more money for other things, and when people buy those other things, 7,500 people would be hired to replace them. Some of them might be working in construction, building the new subways we couldn't afford when productivity was going DOWN.
Let's say the wages of 7,500 are replaced by (relative to inflation) higher wages for the 22,500 people who remain. That will mean the remaining TA workers can afford more, and those 7,500 people will be hired to produce whatever they buy.
Let's say 7,500 are kept on with the TA providing service the TA cannot afford to provide now. That is a quality improvement. So employment will only fall to 30,000, not 45,000.
Or it will fall less. Because lower fares/higher quality will draw more riders. So while fewer workers will be needed to do the SAME work, there will be MORE work to be done. Perhaps employment will only fall to 37,500, with more subway lines, more subway service, better quality, lower subisidies (relative to inflation), higher wages (relative to inflation), and lower fares (relative to inflation).
I hope that is the TA's Master Plan.
What is the TWU's master plan? Go back to ticket choppers, with more staff and higher costs, and cut back on maintenance to fund it?
Don't you think that in some industries the productivity gain has not kept up with the average? Especially service industry (like f.e. MTA) comes to mind. Hypotetical question: how would you increase the productivity in the restaurant wait staff versus 100 years ago?
Arti
(Hypotetical question: how would you increase the productivity in the restaurant wait staff versus 100 years ago?)
Automatic dishwashers. Machine laundries for the napkins. Cooking equipment that cooks faster. Pre-cut meat. Pre-packaged, semi-prepared food. Large electric blending machines. Refrigerators, so ice is not needed.
(Don't you think that in some industries the productivity gain has not kept up with the average? Especially service industry (like f.e. MTA) comes to mind.)
The MTA is more like a utility, and these have had enormous productivity gains. If technology (CBTC? Door Sensors) allowed full system OPTO, which other systems have, that would be a productivity gains. I'm told the new trains are designed to allow components to be easily replaced for easy maintenance, and that AC requires less maintenance than DC. That's a productivity gain.
Articulated buses, which allow good drivers to carry more people, are a productivity gain. Smaller buses, which allow less experienced drivers (not yet ready for the big ones) to become drivers are a productity gain.
Metrocard machines are a productivity gains if they allow fewer station personnel, and these are out of the booths and moving around the station. On the other hand, I consider unmanned stations to be a quality reduction not a productivity gain, unless you can prove electronic surveilance is just as good. But that's not what we're talking about here.
Productivity can rise in the office, too. My job involves pushing a lot of paper, mind-numbing semi-clerical work. With further computerization, you could have fewer Associate Transit Management Analysts, and those that remain would be a lot happier. It's happening all over the economy.
Of course, the biggest management productivity gain would be if people showed up and did their jobs without anyone looking over their shoulders and checking up on their sick days. You'd need fewer managers and inspectors. In moderinzed companies, the workers themselves are responsible for their work (of course they can be fired if they don't do it), and there is far less management. With an average of over 11 sick days taken per year, and contractors screwing up an screwing us over when people aren't looking, we are a long way from that, unfortunately.
Even so, I'd say TA productivity has risen enormously since 1980. Productivity can rise in services. It usually "disappers" into higher quality, rather than being translated into fewer workers, which is easier to measure. The increase in MDBF is also a productivity gain.
[Automatic dishwashers. Machine laundries for the napkins. Cooking equipment that cooks faster. Pre-cut meat. Pre-packaged, semi-prepared food. Large electric blending machines. Refrigerators, so ice is not needed. ]
That applies to a kitchen staff, not waiter(sse)s.
The second point, you are IMO somewhat correct. I agree that automation would constitute to productivity gains, but at the same time those achieved in manufacturing are dwarfing those in the transportation system. Also lot of opportunities to automate the subway are not applied due to political and union reasons, I personally can't see the reason for token booth clerks, every time they had a possible opportunity to help me, they have failed (i could go on and on..)
As far as quality of service I'd like someone to show me the light :-)
[My job involves pushing a lot of paper, mind-numbing semi-clerical work. ]
Haven't (almost) used a paper for few years, thanks to Adobe Acrobat.
Arti
Are you kidding. So many guys seem to have half their days banked. Does that mean a ton of others are running on empty?
I wondered about this in order to cover everything how many XXL people do you need. I realize some OT is inevitable as people might be available but out of place.
McDonald's and for sit down places computerized ordering, menus that have detailed descriptions of the food items.
Most people don't want to get the bums rush at restaurants the only way to go is to put the food on your plate faster.
The gain is in allowing less skilled people do the work.
[McDonald's and for sit down places computerized ordering, menus that have detailed descriptions of the food items. ]
Sorry, never been there. D'Ags is as far as I go for fast food :-)
Arti
When I was in LA I ate at an all you can eat fried chicken place near the airport, waitresses were old ladies in blue hair. They had screens to place the orders and the table number. There were screens that went to the kitchen and an assembly person that brought the completed order to the waitresses station and she brought it over. In a big place instead of back and forth she was refilling cokes and coffee from a drink station 3-4 waitresses shared. Now that is progress.
Some of us don't read every message on the board, and we choose based on the title of each message. If you change the title of a thread, please indicate
Never mind, I'll just stopreading your posts.
That's OK only my mom and the A. Pig read them anyway.
Those computer screens at the McDonald's Drive-thru which are advertised on TV are the greatest thing since sliced buns.
No more having to worry that difficult to hear speaker, you can SEE if they got it right.
At first I thought it was another part of the menu, but then I saw the text changing.
I don't know what the TA master plan is. But I hope it is to match the average national rate of productivity gain over the past 100 years: two percent per year. The TA employs about 45,000 people. At the average rate of productivity gain, in 35 years it would be down to 22,500 people to do the same work it does today.
Two percent per year might be difficult for a service-oriented business such as the TA. Productivity gains have long tended to be much higher in manufacturing than in services*, although that doesn't mean that services don't see any gains.
* = there's a name for this principle, but I can't remember it.
They can't OPTO whole lines but these shuttles like on the old B and R do the trick.
I think the Lefferts to Euclid shuttle is the next to get chopped to 4 cars and go OPTO. The M shuttle too but there are alot of senior guys there so that will be a fight. The F in Brooklyn and Queens is pretty dead at night.
All of the above, with the money saved from reduced personnel going into $40872357623946 dollar toilet seats, instead of just the usual $7987.99.
Article in today's Tribune:
Foes deliver a message on expansion of airport
What the Trib fails to mention in the headline (but mentioned in the story) is that hundreds of these "foes" were bussed in by the Suburban O'Hare Commission to pack the assembly hall, given t-shirts and placards, and effectively shouted down anybody who had the audacity to voice support for expansion of the airport.
These are the same people who, incredibly, oppose the Residential Sound Insulation Program because it will, of all things, insulate suburban houses against jet noise and make airport expansion easier to swallow. These are also the same people who flatly refuse to believe that the airport's noise contour will actually shrink (in fact, it's already shrunk 44% since 1997) because of older Boeing 727's and MD-80's being retired from service and replaced by quieter jets.
Our only hope is that their shrill rantings and uncomprimising positions will make them that much easier to crush by more reasonable people. Unfortunately, they have fellow right-wing nutcases Rep. Henry Hyde, Sen. Patrick Fitzgerald, and Illinois Senate President James "Pate" Phillip in their pocket.
One thing I noticed on the TV coverage was how old most of these people seem to be. I have a theory that most of these people fled Chicago to the near suburbs back in the 1950's, in the first wave of "white flight" from the city. Based on my observations and interactions with some of these people, I'd say they're still every bit as bigoted as they were in the 1950's, and they still hate Chicago with a passion. Never mind that each of their suburbs would be nothing but a trashy backwater without all the money O'Hare pumps into their economies.
This is the first of four planned public hearings (all to be held in the suburbs, oddly enough). I thought about showing up myself, but I had a meeting downtown to go to, and I probably would have let my temper get the better of me. I may go to future hearings, but I'm not sure if it's worth getting my blood pressure all worked up.
Thankfully, most of the homeowners I'm working with on the sound insulation program are much more level-headed, and accept the airport as a fact of life. They knew the airport was there when they bought their houses, and accept the jet noise as they price they pay for living there. Most are just thankful to be getting $40,000 worth of home improvements at no cost to them. This leads me to belive that the Suburban O'Hare Commission is merely an extremely vocal group of very bitter people, heavily financed by their local politicians, but not representative of most people out there.
The city of Bensenville has even sent out political propaganda to all city residents, at taxpayer expense, urging them to oppose "Daley's Fantasy Plan" and to support a third airport in Peotone. (Peotone is over 40 miles south of Chicago. No single airline has expressed any interest in flying there. My reporter friend at the Tribune has looked up property deeds of all the land near the proposed airport, and it's all owned by -- drumroll, please -- many of same the Republican politicians who are most vocally in favor of the Peotone Airport. They don't give a shit about jet noise, the environment, or runway capacity; they each want to build their own little Rosemont down there, become the next Donald Stephens, and retire very wealthy.)
AAARRRRGH, THE HYPOCRICY!!!!!!
Moral of the story: Beware of rabid NIMBY's, and hope that more reasonable voices can prevail in this debate.
(On-topic content: The city of Elgin, more than 15 miles away from the airport, has indicated they woud support expansion of the airport in exchange for the CTA Blue Line being extended to their town. No official response from the City of Chicago that I'm aware of, but I'm guessing they got a good laugh out of it.)
Okay, done ranting now...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh time for irony! Like I a train fan ever want to see one more square inch of runway anywhere. As to the corrupt property connrection study up on Dulles sometime. I remember it as a ghost town when it first opened(It was NOT NEEDED!) Virginia pols wanted an airport even though BWI was sufficient for anything DCA couldn't handle. Wait 'til the other Daley is gov'nor, then we'll see what comedy really can be.
Not a fair comparison. To be fair, O'Hare is in much worse shape than DC's airports because O'Hare is a major hub, so it gets a lot of flights Reagan and BWI wouldn't get. Your argument about Reagan and BWI might hold water, but O'Hare badly needs more runway space. And that's regardless of how much trackage you add to Metra. David Cole's 100% on the money with this.
Absdolutely NOT. As with the current SFO plans to fill in parts of the SF Bay to convenience more LAX-SFO flights in rush hour, the answer is not paving over verything for either cars or planes. The entire hub and spoke system is fuel extravagant. Ashas recently bee in the news Lufthansa has simply exited short run markets opting to partner with the German Federal Railways as feeders to major international gateways. When friends of mine fly first to O'Hare, and then puddle hump to Madison, I cringe. That Madison leg should not waste runway space or time. When these flights are turned into high speed rail systems we will ned fewer not more airport slots. Note that the recently introduced TDV from ZParis to Marseille is expected to shave 20 % of Air France's flights in the same market--AND it will be more energy efficient.
I like the railway-airline partnership concept, and agree that it could work here in some markets. But it won't work for all Chicago flights because Chicago to West Coast, Chicago-Texas, Alabama,Louisiana etc., Chicago-East Coast and Chicago-Canada, among other route areas, involve distances too great to cover.
The puddle-jumping can and should be curtailed. But there is enough big jet traffic at O'Hare such that a new runway is very much justified.
One place which could, theoretically, have done well under your scheme is John Wayne Airport, Orange County CA. San Diego International (Lindbergh Field) is south of it, Long Beach Airport and LAX north of it - why not just make John Wayne a small field to keep private planes out of the big airports? A rail link could have helped do this.
Long Beach Airport, in part, was important as McDonnell Douglas' facility for launching DC and MD series aircraft from the factory. I suppose you could argue that, if Boeing moved final assembly elsewhere, you don't need a major jet airport there.
A lot of politicians would be unhappy with that...
Try this, eliminate ALL ORD-Detroit, StLouis, Milw, Madison,Toledo, Indianapolis flights from the setup. There would then I suspect be excess capacity. Secondly, my impression is that in the lame deregulation follies each airline is allowed to publish fake schedules with most planes at "rush" hours such that massve delays pile up. Thus the airport expansion is sold as a cure for lae planes, rather than enforcing'honest' scheduling.
I'll have to take your word for that, since I don't live there. Of course, your plan requires high speed rail corridors. Can RTA lines be upgraded to provide some of that?
Most mainline railroads in the Midwest are very long and straight, making them perfect for high-speed rail corridors. These railroads were about the first things ever built in this part of the country, and since the terrain is about as flat as a pancake, the rail lines were able to form nearly perfectly-straight shots between destinations. Look at any map of the Chicago region and you can pretty much hold a ruler up to most of the rail lines.
The problems?
A) The expense of upgrading the tracks and adding electrification (still small potatoes compared to adding more lanes to highways and building new runways, though).
B) Numerous grade crossings outside the city (most railroads in Chicago run on viaducts). But again, the expense of building overpasses or underpasses is chump change compared to what they do for the highways each year.
C) Political will. This has been and will continue to be the main stumbling block, and probably won't change until the airports and highways are so gridlocked that there is no other alternative, and as long as the highway construction / automotive / petroleum industries still have most politicians in their pocket.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The biggest problem is that the rail lines are owned by the freight railroads, not Amtrak. There is no way they will pay to: a)upgrade the tracks/roadbed/signals to support high speed passenger traffic; b) freight equipment can't operate that fast so where's the incentive to upgrade?; and c) do you really think the railroads will shunt freight traffic onto a siding so a passenger train that comes through will get first priority? Even Amtrak is carrying freight nowadays in high speed head-end cars.
Interferance from freight traffic should have been D), but I didn't think of it until after I had hit the "post" button.
Ideally, I think the railroad network should be nationalized just like the highways and airspace. The FRA (or some other agency) would own and maintain the ROW's and the carriers would own and operate the trains similar to, say, a trucking company or airline.
The advantages?
High-speed passenger trains could be given priority and even use their own dedicated tracks, either in seperate ROW's or alongside standard ROW's.
The railroads wouldn't be restricted as to which territory they could offer services in, fostering competition.
Dispatching and signalling would be coordinated by the FRA (or whatever agency ends up running the railroads), similar to today's system of air traffic controllers.
The railroads would probably be happy to wash their hands of maintaining and paying property taxes on their ROW's in favor of paying usage fees to the FRA or whoever.
Private carriers could begin building their own passengers trains and offering service to various markets, similar to the airlines. The airlines themselves may even be interested in running regional trains to feed a hub airport. Amtrak wouldn't be the only game in town and could possibly be privatized.
The cost to the government would be huge, but would probably be workable if it was worked out between the local, state, and federal levels -- similar to how the Interstate Highway System was financed -- and offset by access fees. I'd also advocate that all interstate highways be converted to tollways, with access fees to offset their own maintenance costs and environmental impact.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I doubt that would work, David. There is a limitation as to how much traffic a rail line will carry. Airplanes are much simpler; just make sure there aren't too many arriving/departing the same airspace at the same time. Staggering by just a few minutes takes care of that. Remember also, all jet traffic travels at approximately the same speed, unlike HSR versus freight trains.
Auto traffic is easier, too, since if the roads get too crowded traffic will still flow, albeit at slower speeds.
Nope, the only solution is a dedicated HSR line and that ain't gonna happen - far too expensive relative to the number of passengers carried, with the exception of the NEC and perhaps some California routes, e.g., San Diego to LA.
I agree. Does anyone really believe that O'Hare's traffic is made up of a lot of flights to Indianapolis, St. Louis, or Des Moines? I know that much of the NE traffic is Boston-NY-Phila-Balt-Wash, but the Midwest is not quite like that. Here in the NE replacement rail traffic would work great, as it does for the cities around Frankfurt, Germany.
Anecdote: A Washington Post article last year was someone's account of how it took him 9 hours to fly from Newark to Dulles in a rainstorm because his flight was canceled and delayed, etc., and how critical it was for him to be home at some specific time. I thought, if the jerk had taken an NJT bus 4 miles to Penn Station in Newark, he could have taken the train and been back at Tysons Corner in 4 hours maximum, including the taxi ride from the Falls Church Metro.
Anecdote: A Washington Post article last year was someone's account of how it took him 9 hours to fly from Newark to Dulles in a rainstorm because his flight was canceled and delayed, etc., and how critical it was for him to be home at some specific time. I thought, if the jerk had taken an NJT bus 4 miles to Penn Station in Newark, he could have taken the train and been back at Tysons Corner in 4 hours maximum, including the taxi ride from the Falls Church Metro.
But then he'd have wasted the cost of the flight. Besides, it's doubtful that the airline people told him right at the beginning that the delay would last for nine hours. More likely they kept saying "A little longer," or words to that effect, and the delay just kept adding up.
A bit of advice: if you're ever at the airport and your flight is delayed, don't ask when it will leave, as you won't get a straight answer. Instead, ask "Where's the equipment (the plane)?" The airline people pretty much have to answer that honestly, and therefore you'll know how long the delay will last.
O'Hare has 74 (or is it 84?) million passengers per year, which is more than DCA (15M), IAD(17M), and BWI(13M) put together. If they eliminated every flight of less than 300 miles, it would still be really, really gigantic. It's probably more than JFK, EWR, and LGA put together. Personally I prefer Midway myself, even though the Blue Line to ORD is more fun than the Orange Line, running down that narrow alley next to Milwaukee Avenue on that wooden platform the way it does. The Orange Line while very pleasant runs through railroad yards on a fresh concrete roadbed, which actually is not bad either; and it does start on the Loop Elevated...
O'Hare has 74 (or is it 84?) million passengers per year, which is more than DCA (15M), IAD(17M), and BWI(13M) put together. If they eliminated every flight of less than 300 miles, it would still be really, really gigantic. It's probably more than JFK, EWR, and LGA put together.
The figure was 32 million in 1999 (latest figures). That cut the work to less than half. :-)
The combined total of JFK, EWR and LGA at 34.7 million, just beats it out. However, when Midway is added then Chicago total exceeds this number.
I couldn’t find the statistics, but it would be interesting to see how the number of take-offs and landings compares (which is the measure of runway capacity).
Give or take some varying slipstream allowances, it takes the same runway capacity for a 747 (=~400pax) to take off/land as it does a 737 (=~130pax).
John
Could you explain further your comparison of a 737 and 747 take-off requirement?
The bigger the aircraft, the more the air gets stirred up behind it. This means that there has to be a longer interval before the next aircraft can (especially) take off. Worst case scenario: a 747 followed by a Cessna.
John
Oh, I understand now. I knew you couldn't be referring to takeoff roll requirements.
Indeed, a Cessna departing immediately after a Heavy would quickly find itself in trouble...
"it would be interesting to see how the number of take-offs and landings compares"
Well, here you go, the number of aircraft operations per day, which is one take-off or one landing:
Chicago area
O'Hare - 2,489
Midway - 815
Milwaukee Mitchell* - 617
New York area
Newark - 1740
LaGuardia - 1010
Kennedy - 828
* I put Milwaukee there because it is only about a 45 minute drive from a good portion of Lake County, IL. I flew out of there once and there were plenty of Illinois plates in the parking lot. Also, there is Rockford which is UPS' second largest hub and within an hour or less from Norhtern Kane County (including the entire Elgin area) and norhtwest suburban McHenry County. I like Daley's plan but if it fails why not make Chicago's 3rd airport Rockford or Milwaukee? It makes a hell of a lot more sense than building an airport from scratch in Peotone, way out in the middle of nowhere. It takes an hour just to get from downtown to Tinley Park, let alone Peotone which is much further. And with traffic, faahggetabbouttid. What business traveller from downtown will want to go that far? From my house in the far northwest suburbs, I would be looking at about a 3 hour drive.
Looking at New York's numbers, I am wondering why more air traffic is allowed at LGA than JFK when LGA's two runways intersect while JFK can have a constant flow on two parallel runways.
One more thing to note. O'Hare and Atlanta's Hartsfield have sort of been having a little fight the past few years for the title of "Worlds Busiest". Well, in terms of actual air traffic, neither.
1) Dallas/Fort Worth - 2,513
2) Chicago/O'Hare - 2,489
3) Atlanta/Hartsfield - 2,423
Peotone, if I recall correctly, has a VOR beacon, does it not?
On the contrary, I think it’s demand, not permission, at work here: La Guardia and Newark are effectively running at maximum capacity. Kennedy could carry more flights (which is why Jet Blue has set up there) but is further to get to so less popular.
If the Air Train takes off with business travellers, it will be interesting to see how this changes the numbers.
John
On the contrary, I think it’s demand, not permission, at work here: La Guardia and Newark are effectively running at maximum capacity. Kennedy could carry more flights (which is why Jet Blue has set up there) but is further to get to so less popular.
While Kennedy is well behind Newark and LaGuardia in number of flights, it's actually much closer in terms of passengers. That's because a disproportionate number of the aircraft operating out of Kennedy are widebody jets with high passenger capacities.
Where did you get your numbers? Hartsfield had 915,000 movments, more than anyone else. Dallas was in third place.
airnav.com
There are some interesting statistics regarding the number of people affected by each airport operation. Those who are willing to let their neighbors make sacrifices for the general good, can have a field day analyzing these statistics.
Another study tries to quantify the immediate financial sacrifices made by living under a flight path. They suggest that property values increase 3.4% for each quarter mile away from the flight path. I don't know if a similar study was done for O'Hare. It would be interesting to see what the financial impact for the surrounding towns and individual would be with the proposed new flight paths.
The DOT's stats only count boardings. Airports Council International counts enplaning and deplaning and tranfers only once, their numbers are what most people go by. O'hare did 72.1 million last year.
>>> One place which could, theoretically, have done well under your scheme is John Wayne Airport, Orange County CA. San Diego International (Lindbergh Field) is south of it, Long Beach Airport and LAX north of it - why not just make John Wayne a small field to keep private planes out of the big airports? A rail link could have helped do this. <<<
John Wayne is a major terminal for Orange County residents and business travelers going to San Francisco, Las Vegas, and Phoenix. There is no reason for these travelers to make the extra commute to LAX, which is already overcrowded. In the late ‘60s perhaps John Wayne was just a commuter stop on the way to LAX, but no longer.
>>> Long Beach Airport, in part, was important as McDonnell Douglas' facility for launching DC and MD series aircraft from the factory. <<<
Because Long Beach is so much closer to LAX than John Wayne, it has less of an independent identity then John Wayne in Orange County. The fact that it is the factory outlet for McDonnell Douglas does not mean it must be a commercial airport (although McDonnell Douglas appreciates the having the public pick up the bill for operating the airport). Boeing has a factory airport in Seattle, and the Lockheed facility in Palmdale, and the Douglas facility at Clover Field in Santa Monica both launched factory aircraft, but Clover Field returned to general aviation after LAX opened, and although there has been talk of a commercial airport at Palmdale (with high speed rail) to replace LAX for thirty years it has not happened.
Tom
Agreed. Theoretically Long Beach could close with LAX, Pasadena-Burbank-Glendale Airport ("Hollywood-Burbank") and John Wayne picking up the slack.
Politically, it won't happen.
Long Beach Airport, in part, was important as McDonnell Douglas' facility for launching DC and MD series aircraft from the factory.
Because Long Beach is so much closer to LAX than John Wayne, it has less of an independent identity then John Wayne in Orange County. The fact that it is the factory outlet for McDonnell Douglas does not mean it must be a commercial airport (although McDonnell Douglas appreciates the having the public pick up the bill for operating the airport). Boeing has a factory airport in Seattle, and the Lockheed facility in Palmdale, and the Douglas facility at Clover Field in Santa Monica both launched factory aircraft, but Clover Field returned to general aviation after LAX opened, and although there has been talk of a commercial airport at Palmdale (with high speed rail) to replace LAX for thirty years it has not happened.
Traffic at Long Beach should pick up in a year or so as Jet Blue will be using it as their West Coast base. Jet Blue, as you may have gathered from earlier posts, is a highly successful start-up airline based at Kennedy.
By the way, Boeing's Seattle airport (technically known as King County International Airport) didn't look terribly active when I was in Seattle a couple of weeks ago, except for some general aviation. I believe most of their Washington facilities are at Everett or Renton.
The factories are, yes. New airliners just assembled and being tested, or being flown to the customer, fly out of Payne Field or a strip in Everett whose name I don't recall.
New airliners just assembled and being tested, or being flown to the customer, fly out of Payne Field or a strip in Everett whose name I don't recall.
I believe Payne Field is the Everett strip.
It is, but Boeing has its own strip too, separate from Payne. I remember seeing it on the Boeing Co. tour.
These are also the same people who flatly refuse to believe that the airport's noise contour will actually shrink (in fact, it's already shrunk 44% since 1997) because of older Boeing 727's and MD-80's being retired from service and replaced by quieter jets.
The newer planes emit the same amount of acoustic energy. The difference is that the newer planes were designed to emit lower frequency vibrations that are not weighted as heavily on the A scale. The A scale is supposed to approximate human auditory acuity, so the perceived noise level appears to be less. If a flat or C scale weighting were used, the newer jets would be no quieter.
Also, one must be very careful about how one calculates percentage differences on a decibel scale. Strictly speaking a 44% decrease is a 7 dbA drop out of a 120+ dbA level for a jet. That difference is not perceptable at that noise level.
These are the same people who, incredibly, oppose the Residential Sound Insulation Program because it will, of all things, insulate suburban houses against jet noise...
How does this insulation work, if the person wishes to open windows on a cool summer evening?
"The newer planes emit the same amount of acoustic energy. The difference is that the newer planes were designed to emit lower frequency vibrations that are not weighted as heavily on the A scale. The A scale is supposed to approximate human auditory acuity, so the perceived noise level appears to be less. If a flat or C scale weighting were used, the newer jets would be no quieter."
Not quite. Newer planes have high-bypass engines. Most of the acoustic energy is produced by sonic booms from the exhaust leaving the engine's core. In the case of a high-bypass turbofan, the most of the air taken in by the engine bypasses the core and travels at subsonic speed around it. This helps muffle the noise.
"Also, one must be very careful about how one calculates percentage differences on a decibel scale. Strictly speaking a 44% decrease is a 7 dbA drop out of a 120+ dbA level for a jet. That difference is not perceptable at that noise level."
Standing directly behind the jet, there is no appreciable difference. But, as usual, you're misusing this data. If you driving along Flushing Bay and planes take off near you from La Guardia, the noise you're treated to by 767-ER and a 727 is much different; the former is significantly quieter than the latter.
Back for more homework, Steve....
Not quite. Newer planes have high-bypass engines. Most of the acoustic energy is produced by sonic booms from the exhaust leaving the engine's core. In the case of a high-bypass turbofan, the most of the air taken in by the engine bypasses the core and travels at subsonic speed around it. This helps muffle the noise.
A survey was taken at Sea-Tac airport using an octave band analyzer. The total takeoff noise level was calculated using equal weighting and 'A' weighting. The MD-80/727 class of planes showed a dbA value of 4 dbA below the flat weighting. The 757/767 class showd a dbA value of 9 dbA below the flat weighting. This differential from a pure equal rating accounts for 5 dbA "quieter" rating for the 767 class over the 727 class with the same total acoustic output.
I made a mistake in calculating what in fact, "it's already shrunk 44% since 1997 because of older Boeing 727's and MD-80's being retired from service and replaced by quieter jets" means. I assumed that the current noise level was 44% of its previous value. It is really 56% of its previous value (100 - 44%). That amounts to a 5 db decrease, instead of the 7 db I had previously stated.
Standing directly behind the jet, there is no appreciable difference.
The commonly accepted figure for a commercial jet aircraft taking off is 104 dbA at a distance of 1000 feet. That's equivalent to 92 dbA at 2000 feet, which within the altitude that planes fly over nearby communities.
You cite a survey at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport without stating where the sound was measured, with what respect to the airplanes etc. etc. If you want to use that survey to prove your poiint, you're going to have to supply those details. Without them the survey is meaningless.
"I made a mistake in calculating what in fact, "it's already shrunk 44% since 1997 because of older Boeing 727's and MD-80's being retired from service and replaced by quieter jets" means. I assumed that the current noise level was 44% of its previous value. It is really 56% of its previous value (100 - 44%). That amounts to a 5 db decrease, instead of the 7 db I had previously stated."
You may have made a further mistake. That statement does not assume all older jets have been withdrawn and is an average value, not the value representing the newer jets, which meet at least Stage III requirements. But soon we will have the opportunity to see what happens when all older jets are withdrawn: Delta is removing all 727 aircraft from La Guardia and replacing them with new jets. Other airlines are following suit. I suspect the average drop in noise (compared to today) will be more than 44% in that case.
That 44% I referred to is the reduction in area of the noise contour. The noise contour is basically a line on a map that surrounds the airport. The area inside the line is considered to have "excessive" noise, while the area outside the line isn't. The line represents 70dB, but don't ask me exactly what that means (we have acoustical consultants who take the measurements and figure all that stuff out). The 44% reduction in the noise contour means that the land area within the 70dB line has shrunk 44% since 1997.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks for the clarification. That 70 db is an unusual figure. The Midway home improvement program was limited to the DNL 80 db area.
This report shows how many people are affected in the DNL 65 db area for the 30 busiest airports. It also makes an attempt to compare number of people impacted vs. the number of operations. O'Hare falls in the middle. The two worst, by wide margins are LGA and JFK. You'll also notice that LAX is below O'Hare. They used a different technique in LA. They declared a "dead" zone around the flight path, bought up all the houses and laid the fields fallow.
It shows that 200,000 people were impacted by O'Hare in 1988. I wonder what this number is today. How did its change compare to similar non-impacted areas? This might be a better measure of how willing people are to move onto an airport flight path.
Indeed, LAX's strategy of buying land like that was smart. Still, "curfew" restrictions see takeoff patterns reversed overnight so that planes approaching and planes taking off often approach each other head-on. This has earned LAX a black eye with airline pilots. Unless that policy has changed recently, which I doubt...
Still, "curfew" restrictions see takeoff patterns reversed overnight so that planes approaching and planes taking off often approach each other head-on.
If you investigated how the DNL-db level is calculated, you would understand why such measures were necessary. It's is one way of circumventing the intent of the measure.
Midway is sort of an odd situation because it's an old airport in a very confined area, sort of like Chicago's version of LaGuardia. Planes are practically clipping the rooftops of neighborhood houses before they land. I don't think 70dB would be very realistic down there.
There's been some talk that the O'Hare area may actually be changed to 65dB. As I understand it, most airports started out at 70, but then a few went to 65. It only takes one or two airports to change their level, and then the homeowners around all the other airports immediately start calling their lawyers and yelling, "Well, Bozeman Montana changed their level to 50dB. Therefore, we should be at 50 too."
One of my acoustical consultant friends told me that the Minneapolis program has recently gone down as far as 60dB, mainly because the neighborhoods around that airport are very wealthy and the residents have a lot of clout. God help us if we have to go down to 60. It's all pretty absurd, since 60dB is about as loud as a normal conversation. Our sound guy even took out his meter and held it there while we were talking, and it hovered around 55-58dB.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's all pretty absurd, since 60dB is about as loud as a normal conversation. Our sound guy even took out his meter and held it there while we were talking, and it hovered around 55-58dB.
You really have to watch out which measurements you are comparing; it is very easy to compare apples to oranges without realizing it. The airport noise contours are calculated using the so-called DNL-db standard, which is a 24-hour weighted average of the instantaneous dbA sound levels throughout the day.
Suppose the background noise level were 58 dbA and suppose that there were 100 incidents of 15 second duration each, where the sound level were 90 dbA as a result of takeoffs. Then the DNL would be raised less than 2 db. Each of those 100 incidents is very annoying and interferes with normal cognative processes. However, the overall DNL - 60 db would be the normal talking level of 60 dbA. Apples and oranges.
BTW, one site by an acoustic insulation manufacturer, suggests that one wants to shoot for 40 db for residential, classroom, quiet office environments and 45 db for office, retail environments.
Thank you for correcting me on that.
If it were up to me, there would be no international airport at Peotone, and O'Hare would get at least one new runway (if necessary through eminent domain seizure) right now. The runway should be situated so that aircraft can use it simultaneously with other parallel strips (see how Denver International is arranged).
The new O'Hare proposal consists of six parallel runways, a western access road, and an additional large terminal (in addition to the two new terminals already in the works).
Click here for the full proposal: http://www.ci.chi.il.us/Mayor/FutureofORD.pdf
Just so you know, this is an 11MB download in PDF format.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I saw it.
O'Hare's current layout allows for simulateneous use of two runways at a time in three well-spaced directions on the clock, changeable depending on wind direction. (If I recall correctly, intersection runways can also be used if wind conditions are not unsafe). The proposed revision would eliminate that arrangement in favor of a much larger capacity in one direction and a two-runway capacity in another. This would bring O'Hare closer in layout to Atlanta's Hartsfield Airport (five parallel runways), or LAX (four parallel). On the other hand, Denver International was designed to provide capacity along two different axes on non-intersecting runways.
I'm curious: Is wind direction not as important a factor as it used to be? If so, is that a response to larger, more stable aircraft? Chicago is famous for its winds; do they come only from one predominant direction?
Chicago's typical wind speeds are actually about average for the country. The term "Windy City" was coined by arrogant New York newspapers in reference to Chicago's boisterous politicians during the World's Columbian Exposition in 1893. The biggest weather problems O'Hare faces are severe thunderstorms during the summer and the occasional blizzard during the winter, but that's pretty typical for most airports outside the Sun Belt.
As for how wind patterns impact takeoffs and landings, I have no idea. I do know that runways 9L/27R and 9R/27L (the two east-west runways) seem to get fairly constant usage regardless of where the winds are coming from. Somebody who knows a lot more about aviation could tell you more than I could, though.
-- David
Chicago, IL
DIA has enough expansion space to add 7 more runways including a 16,000-footer currently being graded, plus two more concourses and a second terminal building. That's why the control tower is located at Concourse C. Right now it's at one end of the airport, but eventually will be in the middle. The existing facilities were designed to handle 50 million passengers per year and last year handled 39 million. Ultimately, with additional facilities, capacity will be 110 million.
DIA's runways were designed to allow takeoffs and landings without impeding one another and are 4000 feet apart, allowing simultaneous takeoffs and landings in bad weather. This is what made the old Stapleton Airport a bottleneck in bad weather. All planes had to be funnelled to one runway, limiting capacity to 32 flights/hour. And Stapleton's runways were not well-laid out to begin with.
If I recall correctly, Stapleton began (as many airports did) with propeller traffic, and made the transition to jets in the 1950's and '60's very poorly.
If my memory is faulty someone please correct me.
That sounds right. Even Stapleton stirred a bit of controversy when it opened. That entire area is slated for redevelopment now. The concourses have been demolished. The control tower is still in place; it will ke kept as a memento. The runways are for the most part still there, marked with Xs as having been decertified. The only places they've been removed are where 56th Ave. was extended through the ROW, and over I-70 where the runway tunnels were.
You cite a survey at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport without stating where the sound was measured, with what respect to the airplanes etc. etc. If you want to use that survey to prove your poiint, you're going to have to supply those details.
The link provided in my post, shows that this table is measuring difference between total sound energy (flat weighting) and the A-scale weighted sound energy (dbA) for the same stimulus. This table categorizes this by plane/engine type. Two of these categories happen to be the 727/MD-80 class and the 757/767 class. These are the two specific classes that you mentioned as examples for comparison of sound levels between older and newer engine technologies.
This table illustrates how differences in spectral content can skew the A-scale reading. This is equivalent to the following experiment. Feed an audio signal into an equalizer. Adjust the equalizer to mimic the A-scale weighting. Place meters on the input and output the equalizer and record the difference between the two readings for the same excitation. The results showed that the output dbA reading was down 4 db from the input for 727/MD80 aircraft and down 9 db for 757/767 aircraft.
This technique eliminates any variability due to location of measurements, etc. Unless, one is challenging conservation of energy, it also means that a 757/767 would read 5 dbA less than a 727/MD80, even though both had the same acoustic energy.
Without them the survey is meaningless.
I included a link to Table II in my post. One could have recovered the full report from this link and found an additional number of interesting reports in the process. However, here is the full report for those who have difficulty in following such links.
This report was sanctioned by the authorities running Sea-Tac Airport. They are likely to place the best possible light on problems associated with airport operation because of Boeing's proximity. Until Microsoft came along, it was the entire region's economy. Nevertheless, your attention is directed to conclusions 9, 10 and 11, which are rather pessimistic regarding the ability for the new engine types to reduce perceived loudness and for the effectiveness of passive insulation techniques for providing airport noise mitigation.
The most important conclusion in the report is that the measurement of perceived noise is imperfect. This makes it very difficult to draw any human impact conclusions from it; there is an impact on the recording instruments. Recording instruments don't call their congressmen.
The bottom line is how to determine whether an airplane taking off bothers anybody. Perhaps a better way would be to survey people under flight paths where the aircraft types are different and compare "satisfaction" results.
I worked in a large organization (Hughes) right off LAX Runway 25L, and spent a lot of time in that environment. In addition, I used to do a little plane watching off La Guardia. I perceived a significant difference in noise, and so did people standing with me. How different? Well, when a 727 took off, I couldn't hear someone talking to me from a foot away. When a 767 took off, I could have a normal conversation with someone standing and not have to raise my voice.
Naturally, approaching aircraft are not a huge problem, with engines running at close to idling speeds.
I was amused by the notes on propeller aircraft. So long as propeller blades spin subsonically, there shouldn't be a huge problem. I recall reading interviews with US Navy F-14 pilots who intercepted and escorted Russian TU-95 Bear bombers on ELINT missions along the US coastline. They describe an ear-shattering roar and attributed it to two contrarotating propellers on each of four engines; the Bear's propeller tips did reach supersonic speeds. One pilot reportedly had trouble using his radio or even communicating with his radar intercept officer in the backseat through the helmet intercom because of this noise.
The most important conclusion in the report is that the measurement of perceived noise is imperfect.
This was the reason that I chose to include only the data table in my post. You requested to see the entire report. Its conclusion does not invalidate the data I cited.
I used to do a little plane watching off La Guardia. I perceived a significant difference in noise, and so did people standing with me. How different? Well, when a 727 took off, I couldn't hear someone talking to me from a foot away. When a 767 took off, I could have a normal conversation with someone standing and not have to raise my voice.
Anecdotal evidence substituting for scientific methodology? :-)
The A-scale is the best predictor for speech intelligibility based on SNR, as opposed to other weightings. There are a lot of other factors that influence it too.
As for your ability to extrapolate anecdotal evidence, were the separate planes both using maximum thrust and exactly the same flight paths or was the loading different for the different aircraft? Did the speech have the proper spectral content (there is a collection of about 400 nonsense sentences that are used to guarantee such adherence for experimental purposes). Would your conclusions have been different had you been trying to hear a bird call?
Regarding the TU-95, vibration and bone conduction are significant methods of sound transmission and hearing (which are not addressed by O'Hare's sound proofing program). Is the F14 cockpit acoustically isolated from its air frame? Not if I remember the weight allowances that go into fighter aircraft design.
"This was the reason that I chose to include only the data table in my post. You requested to see the entire report. Its conclusion does not invalidate the data I cited."
Taking data out of context makes it meaningless - of course you commonly do that to "prove" a point which cannot be supported any other way.
I offered an anecdote not to prove a point, but to suggest that further investigations of various types (including "satisfaction" surveys) may yield good information. There a reason why I felt more comfortable with a 767 take-off than a 727 take-off.
"As for your ability to extrapolate anecdotal evidence, were the separate planes both using maximum thrust and exactly the same flight paths or was the loading different for the different aircraft?"
I'm not extrapolating anything. As to the take-off thrust, La Guardia has very short runways, and pilots not respecting them end up either in the water or on top of somebody's house. Assuming that the 767 used maximum take-off thrust is very safe.
"Is the F14 cockpit acoustically isolated from its air frame? Not if I remember the weight allowances that go into fighter aircraft design."
It is not, but remember that most commercial passengers don't wear the headgear fighter pilots do. Also, these pilots have had opportunities to observe other aircraft (C-130's, for example). The pilot's observations were that they were not in as much discomfort with other aircraft. The TU-95 was unique in this aspect.
How does this insulation work, if the person wishes to open windows on a cool summer evening?
If they open their windows, then they hear the jet noise. No amount of sound insulation is going to stop that. But if that's such a huge problem for them, they shouldn't have bought a house near the airport to begin with.
-- David
Chicago, IL
If they open their windows, then they hear the jet noise.
You mean the airports shrinking noise contour wont help? :-)(
What will be the HVAC operating costs? Will O'Hare be providing an electric/fuel bill cap? :-)
they shouldn't have bought a house near the airport to begin with.
You seemed to indicate in your original post that many home owners predate the airport's opening (1958-1962). Was that a figurative or factual statement?
What will be the HVAC operating costs? Will O'Hare be providing an electric/fuel bill cap? :-)
Of the people who do not already have central HVAC, most of them are using inefficient window units and they may or may not have adequate insulation. With the new doors and windows, insulation, and central air instead of window units, they should see a pretty hefty drop in their energy bills. I'm sure City Hall won't object if they chose to donate their savings to the Department of Aviation. :-)
You seemed to indicate in your original post that many home owners predate the airport's opening (1958-1962). Was that a figurative or factual statement?
There has actually been an airport at that location since well before World War II. It was called Orchard Field, which is why all the luggage tags at O'Hare still say "ORD".
Also, in my statement I said that many of the people who were bussed in by the Suburban O'Hare Commission seemed to be rather old. Most of my actual homeowners that I deal with on a daily basis tend to be much younger on average. Most of them are blue-collar people who are just starting their families, with a fairly high percentage of immigrant families (usually Hispanic or Polish).
Most of the suburban development around the airport dates from the late 50's and early 60's, right around the time the airport really became a major player as we know it today. This was also around the same time that "white flight" from Chicago was in full-swing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Your energy assessment my be a little too optimistic. Closing direct atmospheric exposure means that the ventilation will have to operate while the home is occupied. That's a whole lot longer than, if windows could be opened.
BTW, I assume you folks did a radon assessment before you sealed up those homes. :-)
Radon is actually less of a concern than carbon monoxide, especially if they're getting new windows but keeping the same HVAC system. We give at least one plug-in CO detector to every house in the program.
Just this past week, we took out an old gas furnace and discovered three large cracks in the heating coils. With the new windows and doors that homeowner was getting, his entire family probably would have been killed during the first cold snap of the winter if we had kept the original furnace in there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Our only hope is that their shrill rantings and uncomprimising positions will make them that much easier to crush by more reasonable people. Unfortunately, they have fellow right-wing nutcases Rep. Henry Hyde, Sen. Patrick Fitzgerald, and Illinois Senate President James "Pate" Phillip in their pocket.)
Somehow, free markets and deregulation lose their appeal to Republicans when a poor city will benefit, and rich suburbs will, in theory of not in practice, lose out. One wonders what "liberals" and all their rules have accomplished. In zoning, at least, what they have accomplished is, in the aggregate, suburban sprawl and economic segregation.
Dave! Buddy!
Do you know what you just described? You just described what the airlines tried to do to the Port Authority regarding AirTrain. Pay people to come to a community board meeting, pay for their T-shirts and signs, feed them a bunch of drivel about genocide and the like, and try to pack a meeting with them. It backfired, of course, because too many people in the city, and the politicians, were for the project.
But now you're seeing first hand what that kind of game is like. Congratulations on having had that experience, and welcome to the club!
Now, I have one question for you: What are YOU going to do about it?
Now, I have one question for you: What are YOU going to do about it?
Well, I spend about 40 hours a week inspecting the work performed in the process of soundproofing homes near the airport. I also serve as a go-between for the homeowners and the Department of Aviation, which involves no small degree of PR work. The better I do my job, the quieter these people's houses will be, the happier the homeowners will be about our program, and maybe airport expansion will be a little easier for them to swallow.
In my "off" time, I'm a pretty vocal advocate of expanding the airport even if I'm not able to attend the public hearings personally. (I also advocate a real regional high-speed rail system, but unfortunately that's more of a pipe dream than anything else right now.) I've written one or two letters to the Tribune about the airport proposal, but they haven't been published.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Great!
This is what bothers me and probably the most ironic thing, and you should bring this up if you go to a hearing David: Almost all, if not all of the people who oppose O'Hare expansion, use the damn airport! I guess the noise is O.K. if someone who doesn't like the noise needs to fly somewhere. These people don't know how good they have it. I live an hour from O'Hare but would love to live in a surrounding suburb near O'Hare so I would only be a ten minute drive away. The only problem is a house the size of mine would cost about double as much as it does way out here if it was in a place like Park Ridge or Des Plaines.
David, you are right on the money about how those suburbs would be nothing without O'Hare nearby.
This wouldn't happen, but lets just go with it for a minute. Let's say that a HUGE airport is built in Peotone, all the airlines go there, and there is virtually nothing left at O'Hare. All of a sudden these people who don't like O'Hare would be saying "hey, it wasn't so bad after all".
Here is a solution. Anyone who opposes O'Hare expansion shouldn't be allowed to use O'Hare. Then the airport wouldn't need expanding, it would be fine the way it is now.
I like your solution.
Why don't we expand the concept? People who clog local roads to reach a commuting destination but oppose the extension of a mass transit line to reach them could be offered absolute veto power over the construction on two conditions:
1. Their cars would be stopped and not allowed to proceed on these roadways.
2. They waive the right to seek zoning changes to wreck residential neighborhoods and build new office parks elsewhere.
While I agree that The NIMBY Reasons against expansion are foolish is Airport expansion Really needed?
I don't have the exact numbers but I know that may people who use O;Hare never leave the airport and are just there to make connecting flights. What is needed is to move a major Hubs away from major cities. There is more than enough demand to have direct flights from major city to just about any where. And someone flying from Fargo to New York doesn't care whether the vending machine they use is in Chicago or some corn field in Indiana building a new air port there would be cheeper than anyone enlarging the current airports. Likewise Bangor Maine should turned into the major transatlantic hub with Boston New York and Atlanta serving only locals fly the Eroupe.
Actually, Boeing is predicting that there will be, in future, more demand for direct point-to-point flights, bypassing hubs. This is made possible for routes of all volumes by the advent of very-long range aircraft of different sizes, such as 737's and 767-300ER, 777-200ER and the 747-400. Boeing brought a scale model of its Sonic Cruiser to the Moscow Airshow. This aircraft would be aimed squarely at passengers who want to go non-stop point to point in as short a time as possible. It will cruise just under Mach 1.
One thing I noticed on the TV coverage was how old most of these people seem to be. I have a theory that most of these people fled Chicago to the near suburbs back in the 1950's, in the first wave of "white flight" from the city. Based on my observations and interactions with some of these people, I'd say they're still every bit as bigoted as they were in the 1950's, and they still hate Chicago with a passion. Never mind that each of their suburbs would be nothing but a trashy backwater without all the money O'Hare pumps into their economies.
You may be completely right. And what makes things doubly absurd is that most of these people paid absurdly low amounts for their houses, the houses whose values they're supposedly fighting tooth and nail to protect. Sorry, I have a hard time sympathizing with someone who paid $20,000 (with a 3% mortgage, now paid off) for a house now worth ten or fifteen times that much.
And don't forget the $30,000+ of improvements they're getting to each of their houses as part of the Sound Insulation program, at no charge. This includes new high-quality doors and windows, insulation in the walls and attic, new drywall in some cases, and central air conditioning if they don't already have it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
We have the same problem here in southern california where a former military base " el toro " is being resisted by
some NINBYs in orange county while they want to DUMP on the " working class sections of los angeles "
( the LAX extension ) Instead of doing the right thing converting the former military base " el toro " into a new
airport to take some of the extreme stress off of LAX ( even the green line lingt rail does not go into there you have to catch
the g.d.$#$^$%^ ""G"" Bus from the avaiation / 105 station to go there on public transit !! ........geeeeezzz .....!!!
I happen not to agree with you on that. El Toro offers a lot of potential for redevelopment into very attractive public open space and some mixed development. A lot of mitigation would have to be done, such as environmental clean-up, removal of fuel bunkers, solvents, munitions etc., and contaminated soil removal where needed. But LAX expansion makes a lot more sense because that's nearer where a lot of unemployed people and underemployed people live (South-Central, Inglewood) and offers them a chance for a better standard of life. Orange County has John Wayne Airport (one could argue back and forth whether or not that should be expanded). Moreover, the presence of first-class manufacturing and research space in El Segundo, Redondo Beach etc. means that investments in LAX helps keep people gainfully employed in hard-hit aerospace sectors without having to pave over new office parks.
El Toro is not primarily about NIMBY. It's about picking from many good uses of that land, and some optionsmay be superior than using it for an airport.
i guess you missed my point the idea was to build EL TORO ... ( to take some stress off of LAX ) the nymbys of well to do orange co.
" the orange curtan " are mostly rich mostly elite white REBUBLICAN types etc.. NIMBY types who absolutely care nothing about the
working class & poor who live around LAX ( mostly black-latinos etc..)
EL TORO would be a good idea to spread this stuff around a litle bit thinner the airport will be no worse than a military airport !!! lol !
"I guess you missed my point the idea was to build EL TORO ... ( to take some stress off of LAX ) the nymbys of well to do orange co.
" the orange curtan " are mostly rich mostly elite white REBUBLICAN types etc.. NIMBY types who absolutely care nothing about the
working class & poor who live around LAX ( mostly black-latinos etc..)"
No, I got your point exactly. The rich whites who live in Orange County don't need the investment dollars. South-Central LA does. Instead of "spreading around" sprawl, and making the rich whites richer still, there is an opportunity to reinvest at LAX and offer some of that money in the form of set-asides to minority businesses in South Central. Of course, whenever you try to invest in downtrodden neighborhoods you run into: ignorant residents who think it's all a plot to commit genocide, politicians who like constituents who are victims because it maintains a power base for them (even if it is not in the best interests of constituents), for example, Maxine Waters; and then all the people who want hand-outs.
LAX is a busy and vital airport. Trash it and you trash a lot of people who depend on it for their livelihoods, directly or indirectly.
I say expand LAX, build the Green Line spur into the terminal, make LAX into a competitive cargo center for the Orient, and make sure businesses in South Central get some of the contracts. Follow the PA's example: Create training opportunities at the community colleges and build an annex for students at LAX, with internship opportunities. Invite govt. agencies to relocate facilities there. Make those residents a vital part of the whole project. That will help reduce the strife and help South-Central make some real progress.
well the only place i may not see eye to eye with you is the expansion of LAX in which the residents of ingelwood & the surrounding
LAX communities in the flight path of all of those ( planes ) see it differently then those of us who do not live next to airports !
I did have some experence with this living near hartsfields atlanta airport ( on herschel drive there ) the roars of those planes !! UGH !
the green line should have gone inside LAX !!! .........lol ..!! & south central has seen a lot of so called " progress" ............die ....!!
Residents in South Central live a lot closer to liquor stores, drug dealers and gang houses than they do to the airport. The only way to get rid of that plague is with economic investment. Now, the airport and its associated facilities (Green Line etc.) are not the only sources of jobs, but they are important.
South-Central politicians, I'm afraid, have adopted some funny priorities, more designed to keep themselves on TV and in office, rather than helping constituents.
>>> Residents in South Central live a lot closer to liquor stores, drug dealers and gang houses than they do to the airport <<<
That may be true, but I had occasion recently to visit with someone who lives in Inglewood, near the Forum, and the sound of jets passing overhead was a real conversation stopper. The people living there may want to see more jobs for South Central Los Angeles, but they want no more noise or the residue of the jet fuel which settles on their neighborhood. For this reason they are dead set against expansion of LAX, and their local politicians listen to them.
Tom
Well there has been discussion over the years of building a fourth major L.A. area airport around Palmdale-Lancaster in the Antelope Valley. Since the Air Force and Lockheed already had a well-established presence, the hostility to planes is less than it would be in other area, and a space between the two cities has been kept clear for just such a project.
The only problem is it's 40 miles from the San Fernando Valley and 60 miles from downtown, with only one major highway able to get there due to the San Gabriel Mountains. MetroLink does go to the area, but I belive some of the route through the San Gabriels is single tracked, which isn't a major difficulty for AM/PM commutes, but would be if it was decided to create a rail link from Union Station out to the airport and need trains going in both directions at all times during the day.
>>> MetroLink does go to the area, but I belive some of the route through the San Gabriels is single tracked, which isn't a major difficulty for AM/PM commutes, but would be if it was decided to create a rail link from Union Station out to the airport and need trains going in both directions at all times during the day. <<<
Metrolink pretty much follows the highway and stops at the local communities along the way. What was being discussed thirty years ago (which was before Metrolink) was a new direct rail line, tunneling through the Angeles Forest, and running 100+ mph trains. It brought a momentary boost to land values in the area, but once again, no one wanted to foot the high capital costs of building such a rail line as long as one more plane could be landed at LAX.
Tom
Yep, having taken the Antalope Valley Freeway (Highway 14) many times, I can safely say it's not the straightest route in the world -- at one point the road is actually pointed south to go north and vice-versa, in order to get through the lowest mountain passes (it tops out a 4,200 feet, I think). The rail line follows the old Sierra Highway (ex-U.S. 6) closer than it does the new one, which makes it an even twistier route, and one that's definately not suited for 100 mph trains.
A 90-minute to two-hour train ride from most of L.A. to the new airport wouldn't be a big attraction for most people, though if the high desert population keeps booming like it has in the past 20 years, they may be able to justify their own regional airport anyway.
Metrolink could be expanded to meet the need .......have to build the airport first ......lol!!
Not entirely true. Politicians listen for what it takes to keep themselves in office, which is not always the same as their constituents' needs. Don't confuse the two.
Unfortunately one cannot always have what one wants at no cost. This is true for airports, for supermarkets (review the attitudes of bodega owners), for factories and for transit lines.
In order to get what their constituents want, South Central politicians will need to play ball. They may not be ready to do that yet.
think chicago is all alone in this folks ?? ........................................ please read .............................lol !!
We have the same problem here in southern california where a former military base " el toro " is being resisted by
some NINBYs in orange county while they want to DUMP on the " working class sections of los angeles "
( the LAX extension ) Instead of doing the right thing converting the former military base " el toro " into a new
airport to take some of the extreme stress off of LAX ( even the green line lingt rail does not go into there you have to catch
the g.d.$#$^$%^ ""G"" Bus from the avaiation / 105 station to go there on public transit !! ........geeeeezzz .....!!!
The Air Force Thunderbirds are flying past my apartment building as I type this, for the annual Air and Water Show down at North Avenue Beach. Quick! I need sound insulation!!
But this brings up another point... I grew up a Navy brat, and people who live near military air bases don't seem to complain nearly as much as people who live near commercial airports. And the noise from military fighter jets is far louder and anything United Airlines owns.
-- David
Chicago, IL
<< And the noise from military fighter jets is far louder and anything United Airlines owns. >>
You probably aren't old enough but I remember how noisy the early 707 and DC-8s were...wow!
Love those axial turbojets!
>>> people who live near military air bases don't seem to complain nearly as much as people who live near commercial airports <<<
That certainly was not true when El Toro was active in Orange County, California. There were all sorts of limits on the way pilots took off from the base for the purpose of noise suppression. The difference with a commercial airport is that there is always someone trying to expand it to get more business and make a buck, requiring constant reaction from neighboring land owners. Military bases make a point of trying to get along with the civilians nearby (to prevent inquiries from local congressmen), and when noise is unavoidable they will fall back on an appeal to patriotism to still the opposition.
Tom
Is this process going to be daily?
-if so, proceed to next question-
Is this going to happen on weekends?
-if so, proceed to next question-
Will Circle Line operate tours while the redbirds are getting loaded onto the barges?
Thanks!
Better Question:
Will Circle Line's Tours even COME NEAR the barges path?
I hear a NO.
I heard the towing outfit will arrive bi-weekly or when at least 24 cars are available for pickup. The Circle Line Boat came to within 300 feet passing North to Spuyten Duyvil and the loading can be seen. Apparently, everyone aboard the two boats passing there were peering at the barge and the captains slowed down too when passing. Two barges are utilized, one for the shells bound for Delaware, the other bound for Newark with the truck assemblies. There routing was, at least for the trucks, under the 225 Street Bridge, then south on the Hudson River so I imaging the cars went a similar route. That should be cool to look at battered old cars floating down the Hudson to NY Harbor.
"That should be cool to look at battered old cars floating down the Hudson to NY Harbor".
Many of us can recall seeing these same cars, and a few subsequent orders, floating IN to New York, when new. We've come full cycle.
Joe C.
Now that I live on the Delaware coast, I'm touched that the redbirds (which IIRC, weren't red then) I rode to work in 1970 have followed me home.
As per the official Division of Stations GO Bulletin, 4 Trains operate this weekend as follows:
1) Woodlawn to Borough Hall, SB Platform at BH
2) New Lots or Utica Avs to 14th Street - 7th Av Via the #2 Line
The turning of these trains at 14th Street will force 2 and 3 Express trains onto the local tracks between Chambers and 34th Sts in both directions.
Be on the lookout for this.
-Stef
The Reasoning and Purpose Escapes Me.
Concrete pour on the northbound express track at Nevins St, I believe.
-Stef
Damn, that's a pain in the @$$!@#
MTA's site doesn't say anything like that. It only says that trains run in 2 sections:
1. Woodlawn to Borough Hall
2. Borough Hall to Utica
Arti
It is on the Official Stations Bulletin regarding GOs. The MTA site may be inaccurate in that respect. I'm heading down that way and I WILL investigate.
-Stef
Sounds like you're both right -- it's in 2 sections divided by Boro Hall. But the NB from Utica to Boro Hall can't be turned there, and so it continues to 14th and 7th and returns. But sounds like you can catch an NB 4 going up Lex at Boro Hall as well. So there are 2 NB 4s at Boro Hall, one up 7th and one up Lex!
So it runs light on 7th Ave?
Arti
No -- see Bill Newkirk's post on this thread. He rode it to 14th and 7th. So it must run in revenue service. Looks like an alternate way for passengers to get into the city, if they're going to the west Side.
Strange, the funny thing is that MTA's GO advisory was totally incorrect (can't recall too many of those.)
Arti
This wasn't incorrect -- it was just incomplete. The 4 between Borough Hall and 14th is a freebie.
They're often incorrect, in the sense of actually presenting erroneous information. Last week's GO on the 5 gave the impression that southbound trains were stopping at Chambers, Cortlandt, Rector, and South Ferry before terminating, when in fact most were terminating at Chambers and some were running nonstop from Chambers to Bowling Green. Often, when the W (or formerly B) is rerouted on the Sea Beach, the advisory states that trains stop at New Utrecht; in fact, they run nonstop between Stillwell and 59th. When the 1 runs express, passengers are instructed to backtrack not at 72nd but at 79th (which has separate fare controls for the northbound and southbound platforms) and at 59th (which has an underpass, but so does the closer 66th).
I rode the #4 on the west side today. The first time I rode a R-62 (Kawasaki) on the west side.
All pasengers off at 14th St. where the #4 relayed past the switch and switched over to the southbound express.
Bill "Newkirk"
The scene at Borough Hall was horrendous. There was a large mob of people getting off the train from Woodlawn, made their way up the stairs, and walked over to the 2/3 platform. I found myself transferring to the N/R at Court St instead of Pacific Street.
I bet the 4 on 7th Av was rather empty.
-Stef
I just finish working a road job the GO. Here how it went today(Sun)
1. All northbound 4 trains runs local from New Lots/Utica to 14/7Av. Transfer is available at Boro Hall for Lex #4 trains.
2. At Chambers St, the crew that brought the train from Bklyn get off and another crew plus relay man take it up to 14 St. At 14St, train discharge passengers, run past switch on track 3 and wait for line up to go onto Bklyn express track.(T/O on south end and relay man on north end.)
3. Southbound trains run express from Nevins to Utica.
4. Trains were on 20 minute headways.
5. 2/3 trains run express from Chambers to 14St. After 14St, switch to local track. Downtown service was normal.
6. Most of the crowd did get off at Boro Hall to transfer to the East side 4. There was another option at Fulton St.
Personally, I think that there should have been extra 2/3 trains and have all 4 trains terminate at Boro Hall. In fact the regular service on the 2/3 trains could have handle Sunday's crowds.
I was working on the No.2 Line we didn't have it any better as far as service. No.2 trains where suppose to run on a 12 Minute headway but do to weekend single tracking on the Flatbush line the T/D's had to adjust all trains to a 15 to 20 Minute headway from E241 TO Flatbush. The location of the single tracking was South of Church Ave to Flatbush. Everything on the Uptown track. What they should have done this weekend was forget about the No.4 from Boro Hall to Utica. They should have had the No.2 run it normal 10 Minute headway but have every other train go to Utica Ave this way they could have had less train for the single tracking and not have effected the whole line. Also it would have provided the service to utica for the No.4 train. I have to say the No.2 ran packed trains with only a 15+ headway in the middle of the day. My train made it to the Terminal no fewer then 10 Minutes late with the worst being 20 Minutes late do to all the GO.s and heavy rideing.
Interesting. The southbound 1, 2, and 3 are sharing the same track from 72nd to Chambers -- all express from 72nd to 42nd, all local from 34th to Chambers.
Why the southbound platform at Borough Hall? Isn't the northbound one better located for the transfer to the other segment of the 4? It's also where passengers are used to looking for the northbound 4.
I'm surprised the TA is bothering. Why not just terminate the 4 at Borough Hall and be done with it? The 2 and 3 can't handle weekend loads on their own? (They did fine on weekdays past Atlantic when the midday 4 terminated there.) Anyone planning on transferring to the BMT at Atlantic should be directed at Borough Hall to the N/R.
>>Why the southbound platform at Borough Hall? Isn't the northbound one better located for the transfer to the other segment of the 4? It's also where passengers are used to looking for the northbound 4.
Why the Southbound Track? The Northbound Track was out of service due to the GO in effect.
>> I'm surprised the TA is bothering. Why not just terminate the 4 at Borough Hall and be done with it? The 2 and 3 can't handle weekend loads on their own?
They did this once in September 1997. Anyone remember the Lo-V excursion? Our Lo-V had to detour around the work and travelled by the South Ferry Loop between the East and West Sides.
The 4 was completely knocked out from Borough Hall onward. At the time, the switch at Atlantic Av was being replaced which forced the termination of all 4 trains at Borough Hall (from the Bronx; none to Utica). Why they couldn't do with just the 2 and 3 is beyond me.
In the event of a 4 train service disruption, the TA in the past opted for a special shuttle train on the BMT, operating out of Chambers St on the J to Pacific St on what is the W presently. With the W turning at Pacific St these days, that is highly unlikely.
-Stef
Trains could have terminated on either track at Borough Hall. Track work was in and just north of Nevins (not even extending to Hoyt let alone Borough Hall) on the northbound express track.
Since the Brooklyn 4 was running at 20-minute headways, there should have been through service, single-tracking on the southbound track between Borough Hall and Nevins Street. Since 20-minute service isn't enough for the Bronx, extra trains (two or three for each through train) would run from Woodlawn to Borough Hall, terminating on the northbound track (or they could terminate at Bowling Green).
The scene at Borough Hall today was pure chaos. I arrived on a 4 from Manhattan just as a large crowd was coming towards our train. All of us were getting off (except for a handful who didn't hear the announcements). All of them were getting on. Those staircases and passageways are a bit narrow for two trainloads. Later in the day I made the mistake of transferring from the R to the Manhattan-bound 4. Up the stairs, up the stairs again (the up escalator was broken, and whoever thoughtfully taped up a notice declaring that it would be fixed tomorrow didn't think to reverse the down escalator), past the bank, onto the 2/3 platform (just as a 3 arrived), all the way to the other end of the platform, through the passageway, over to the other end of the platform, up the stairs, across, and down the stairs. I could have walked home in less time.
Incidentally, I didn't see a single Redbird on the 4 today. Most of the R-62's were signed as usual, with some "Special" north and south terminals. One train (south section) even had "Special" bulkhead signs.
A Borrowed Redbird set from the 5 Line was being used on the Utica Av potion of the 4.
Since 14th St and Borough Hall aren't on the roll signs, signage should have been set to SPECIAL.
-Stef
There was a Redbird set from the 5 used on the 4 from Utica to 14St. I dont know about the Bronx section.
Even worse, yesterday the center platform at Atlantic that normally serves the '4' in both directions was open, with absolutely no signs advising people it was running on the local tracks.
We discovered this around 4:00 while changing from the 'W' to the Manhattan-bound '2' or '3'. The stairways leading up to the aforementioned center platform had no tape (which is understandable, considering how often it's ripped down), no signs and no TA personnel to assist people. When the '4' arrived at the Manhattan-bound local platform, everyone on the center platform had to run down and then up again just in time to miss it.
True, the '4' was not traveling its customary route up the East Side so people would have to go through Clark anyway, but that doesn't excuse the lack of any signs or announcements. For that matter, the conductor on that particular '4' that passed merely said "'4' to Manhattan; Nevins Street next."
There were lots of passengers on the center platform at 34th waiting for the uptown express, even though most or all expresses ran local from 14th to 34th. (There was also a cluster on the southbound platform at 66th even though the 1 was running express.)
The center platform at Atlantic was still open because the s/b 4 was going express from Nevins to Utica.
1 track is out of service from north of 72 to south of 42 and that is the only place southbound where all 3 lines are sharing track. Some 2's and 3's went express on 1 track due to a sick passenger at 14th but otherwise everything ran normal south of 42nd.
Then how is the 4 turning at 14th?
The 4 is coming up 3 track to 14th discharging, then going north of 14th past the switch points and then crossing over the switch from 3 track to 2 track and heading back to Brooklyn.
So how can 2/3 service be using the express tracks without being badly delayed by the turning 4?
They're not using the express tracks from 34 to Chambers Sts.
But if there were a problem, then delays would occur if those trains were run onto the express tracks for some unfroseen event. This is inevitable.
-Stef
That's what I thought, but Crazy Train T/O disagrees.
Well, Crazy Train T/O is basically correct.
The south piece of the 4 (Utica - 14th) isn't running very often -- 15-minute headways or so. Northbound, it stops at 14th, discharges its passengers, and pulls ahead past the switches. It sits there for a while, and while it sits, northbound express trains stop on the express track but then switch to the local track to get by. (The train I caught made local stops even though the C/R announced the next stop as 34th. Other trains may have bypassed the local stations on the local track.) When it's ready and the coast is clear, it crosses to the southbound express track and stops there. Southbound 2/3 service is as usual.
Look at my long post about the whole thing. On Sunday, the trains were on twenty minute headways.
Yes, I saw your post after I made mine. See my subsequent post for further comments. My 15 minute estimate was just that; it seemed longer but trains always feel like they take forever to arrive and I didn't want to overestimate the headways.
At Nevins, signs on the platforms announced that the 4 would be running on the local track (as if that wasn't obvious from all the track workers standing in the express trackbed) but didn't bother mentioning that passengers should take any train to Borough Hall and not wait the 20 minutes. (There were audible announcements over the PA, but I don't think the ADA looks kindly on PA announcements with no print announcements as well, nor are PA announcements useful for people who have trouble understanding English but are able to slowly work out what a sign means.)
Speaking of which, there were no signs on the trains, either. I rode a 1 which ran express, a 3 which ran local, two Utica 4's, two Woodlawn 4's, a D from WTC, and a Parsons/Archer-bound R. None had the relevant GO posters posted. Most of the stations had posters up, but they didn't answer all the questions -- like the one I mentioned at Nevins, or the ones at 14th that claimed that express trains would be stopping on the local track (when, in fact, express trains stopped on the express track but, northbound, made local stops), or the ones at Canal that gave the scoop on the E but said nothing about the D.
Better make this day number three for R-142 deliveries.
6666-6670 are now on the property and are being dropped off in the barn by the diesels as we speak.
15 Car delivery this week? Incredible!
-Stef
Furhtermore, 6491-6500 are on the move, from the East/239th St Yard, heading to 207th St? I guess they haven't had their modifications performed yet.
-Stef
Any word on (r-22) numbersake' 7477?
Someone says they spotted 7471-75 on the road in testing, so 7477 shouldn't be too far behind....
-Stef
its was me and its true
It's true, it's true.
-Stef
In the weeks ahead, a GO calls for shuttle bus service to replace L service between Rockaway Parkway and Broadway Junction. 2 Questions: Is the GO for Atlantic Av el reconstuction? How are trains getting turned at the Junction? Did they ever implement that crossover they were slated to put in?
The big question seems to be: Is this a sign of things to come?
-Stef
Yes- a crossover was put in just south of Bway Junction two weeks ago.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
The Canarsie Line CBTC project is going hot and heavy, including the reconstruction of Broadway Junction.
A few years ago I was on an L whose rollsigns claimed it was terminating at Atlantic, but, in fact, passengers were discharged at Broadway Junction. Where could it have gone from there?
Incidentally, there will be two shuttle bus routes (three, if you count the L local and express routes separately) emanating from Broadway Junction. All elevated service away from Manhattan is suspended.
At Rockaway Parkway, shuttle buses will stop at the B42 stop inside fare control. Will passengers boarding there pay at the turnstiles and receive transfers on the bus, or will they enter the station for free and pay when entering at Broadway Junction? How will transfers to and from the B42 -- normally free, without the usual MetroCard caveats -- be handled?
I caught the 4:00 showing of Pelham at the Film Forum today.
At first, it seemed kind of silly to pay 9 bucks to see a movie that I've seen numerous times, but I justified it by saying that I've never seen it in a theatre (big deal, right!)
But anyway, I don't regret it and in fact I'm glad I saw it. The Film Forum is a cozy little theatre, the concession stand is simple and inexpensive, and even though the screen was tiny compared to modern multiplexes, the film was a 'wide' version that caught many small details not seen on the videotape (at least not the tape I have).
So did anybody else catch this particular showing?
If so, I was the one in the next-to-last row wearing a black t-shirt and blue jean shorts with black hair and thin black-rimmed glasses.
Anyone else going this weekend??
That was a good movie. There were some bloopers (necessary, in a sense, for the plot to work out). But you have a good plot, a very effective Walter Matthau, a reasonably realistic (if imperfect) depiction of the subway, and a good director (Sargent).
Contrast that to the waste of film called Money Train.
And a strong endorsement of timers!
Seth
What's this movie about? ... and where's the theater?
In the words of Booker T:
"He didn't say that...
Tell me.. he did not say that!"
So I dunno where or what it is... u gonna tell me? :)
The basic plot is that four guys hijack a #6 train and hold the riders in the first car hostage, for one million dollars in ransom money.
OOOOOOOO... where can I get this movie? Is it on DVD?
Hello, Newman.
Hello Jerry.
OOOOOOOO... where can I get this movie? Is it on DVD?
Yes
I have it both on VHS and DVD. The DVD has the widescreen version. If you ever wanted to see Hector Elizondo play a badass, this movie is for you. Whenever I see him in a movie nowadays, even when he plays a good guy, I still see him as Mr. Gray. That goes for Earl Hindman, too. The same guy who played Wilson Wilson on Home Improvement. Martin Balsam (Mr. Green) says he loved playing a bad guy after doing so many movies in which he was the good guy. The story also goes that Walter Matthau took the role strictly because he needed the money. Gambling losses will do that to you.
The story also goes that Walter Matthau took the role strictly because he needed the money. Gambling losses will do that to you.
Good thing; he was perfect for it. In the book, did Garber really list "mishegas" as a common subway crime, or was that ad-libbed?
In the novel, Garber was the Operations Lieutenent and his role was minimal. I think he said only one thing: "I want every ass in this place moving" at about the time the hijackers were about to make their getaway.
Garber in the movie was Clive Prescott in the novel. Instead of the directors of the Tokyo subway, he was showing the top brass from Boston's system around. He didn't mention "mishegas" in his list of crimes, but he did include pickpockets.
There was no Rico Patrone in the novel. I think they created that role for Jerry Stiller.
From an interview I saw about a year ago with Jerry Stiller, he said that originally his characters name was going to be Garber but in the same supporting role. I forget what Matthaus' character was going to be called. It was Matthau who suggested that he be called Garber and the name Rico Pettrone be used for Jerry Stller's role.
That would have followed the novel; Garber was the Operations Lieutenent. Maybe Matthau's character would have been Prescott. The other characters are pretty much lifted from the novel: Frank Corrall, Caz Dolowicz, Marino, Mrs. Jenkins, DCI Daniels. One thing the novel did not do was refer to the hijackers by color. The only time their names are mentioned in the movie was when the three who died were positively identified. One deviation from the novel was Longman's first name, which had been Walter. In the movie, it was Harold. Plus, Prescott/Garber and Garber/Patrone did not take part in the investigation and questioning of discharged motormen in the novel. A detective Hoskins did the honors and wound up cornering Longman when he tried to jump from a fire escape at his apartment building.
railfan window classic subway cars throughout !!! .........yea !!!
I went to the 2:00 on Friday... in case anyone else was at that show, I was the idiot who walked in 5 minutes late (at "next stop, 33 St") and couldn't see a damn thing, so I stood against the side wall until my date noticed I wasn't next to her and guided me into a seat :).
I had never seen it before, so I was really excited about seeing it for the first time on the big screen. I wasn't disappointed at all. I'm a big Walter Matthau fan, and this was definitely one of his "classic" performances - especially the facial expression at the end. Also, there were a lot of familiar sites in the movie: the police car flips right outside my school, and most of the surface action is at 28 St & Park Ave South, right outside my old office :).
I'll probably be spewing quotes for weeks...
...which most of us know already, word for word.
If so, I was the one in the next-to-last row wearing a black t-shirt and blue jean shorts with black hair and thin black-rimmed glasses.
Yes, you were VERY easy to spot in the darkened theatre!
(No, I wasn't there. Saw the sneak preview of Jay and Silent Bob Stike Back Saturday night...I think many of us would enjoy the 'post-ending' greatly. I won't spoil it, but go see it...never seen a Kevin Smith movie end with a standing O.)
-Hank :)
Did someone say that Cars 1871-80 were on the 1? I saw these (1871-75) back on the 3 today.
-Stef
That's right, Stef; I rode 1880 on the 1 last week. I don't remember if the set was hitched to 1871-5, though.
Today I took what will most likely be my last trip on a PCC. Here's a picture. Unfortunatly, the old man was in the way, but still a nice pic. By the way, someone on the line told me that the PCCs last day will be August 24th, and the new equipment will begin on the 27th. Will the changeover be that quick and will it include the new stations?
PCC
You are right on the dates Tony. I hear of some sort of retirement ceremonies at Branch Brook Park station at 12:00 noon on the 24th.
Bill "Newkirk"
someone on the line told me that the PCCs last day will be August 24th, and the new equipment will begin on the 27th. Will the changeover be that quick and will it include the new stations? - Tony Mirabella
You are right on the dates Tony. I hear of some sort of retirement ceremonies at Branch Brook Park station at 12:00 noon on the 24th. - "Newkirk"
Correct. Substitute bus service will begin around 7:30 PM running every 10 to 20 minutes until 12:45 AM.
Commemorative “last rides” on the PCC cars begin at 8 PM with a car leaving Penn Station every 3 minutes. "Each “last ride” will consist of one round trip between Newark Penn Station and Branch Brook Park (formerly Franklin Avenue). Customers will board and detrain at Newark Penn Station only. Newark City Subway customers that wish to use other stations must board substitute buses at the usual location (Lane 1A) in the Newark Penn Station bus lanes. The cars will stop only at Newark Penn Station. The “last rides” will conclude with a PCC car arriving back into Newark around 10 p.m." - Railpace
Our "Field Trip" will make all the usual stops on Thursday, including Orange for a nice photo op.
I hope all those procrastinators out there aren't still waiting for the "real" date, because it looks like Friday the 24th is realy it.
The cars are in great shape & the ride is very pleasent, so find some way to do the line before it's too late !
Mr t__:^)
There's an article in Monday's Star Ledger about the change from PCC to light rail, including quotes from riders and railfans. They are "Like the old trolley cars".
I'm doing it one more time this week after work with my 2 friends. Man. Those cars are still running well. It would be nice to keep some of them.
Does anyone know how/where the expansion is going to take place? Are there tunnels already dug to Broad St that just need rehabilitating? Is there existing trackage that the subway can take over?
On another note, when I rode the subway a couple of months ago, there was a turnaround at each end, but the radii were pretty tight (lots of wheel squeal!) Will this be eliminated–at least at the Branch Brook end, as the KS cars are double ended?
John
The turnaround will be eliminated on both ends, as the new cars can't make that sharp a radius. (Well, it will remain at Penn Station, but will presumably be out of service.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The loop at Penn stays in service. The cars can make it around the loop.
At Franklin Avenue, the loop disappears for the extension to Belleville and Bloomfield.
Michael
Where will the NELR tracks from Elizabeth hook into the existing tracks?
At Penn Station.
I thought so. It seems to me that that might have an impact on the viability of the loop there, depending on the eventual route to the airport and how the connection is made.
The connection could always be made from the loop, like this:
Today I saw this consist running as a # 9 train 1861-1865/1826-1830. looks like the 1 will get 1651-1870. and the 3 will get 1871-2155.
A bit late for this news, it's been going on for maybe a week or two. The 3 will eventually have or become all R142s, the 3 singles will go to Flushing as the 11th car, and the current/past 1 train sets will go to Flushing as the main cars...6 train sets will go to the 1. I'm not positive if I have this right, if I do, yay for me, if I don't correct me please!
The 1 is only getting 40 Pelham cars to make up for the cars that were "lent" to Livonia. Most of the other Pelham cars will go to the 3 so that they can run 10 cars (2x5car sets) and the singles from the 3 and the rest of the Pelham cars going to Corona.
what the hell are are the r62as for when the 3 is new r142 once the option order starts
Can any of your guys help a brit across the pond?
I need to know if the FL9 ("noses") are still working passenger commuters services out of New York Central. Is it still possible to ride behind some of these locomotives before they are replaced by modern "Genesis" locos? I hear the FL9's have not yet been replaced but I better hurry up if I am going to ride on the passenger services hauled by these vintage locos.
Can anyone help?
Many thanks
Mark
The FL9's are sitting on the RIP track in Croton Harmon. However the FL9AC's are still hauling passengers on long distance runs. They run on the Harlem Line and the Hudson Line. I have not seen any on the New Haven Line. No...wait a minute. There is a regular FL9 that operates the Danbury shuttle and possibly the Waterbury shuttle. I have not seen a regular FL9 on the Wassaic Shuttle. Apparently, the few unmodified Fl9's that they have are not being worked very hard.
Confirmed... I photographed an FL9 (or FL9AC - I don't know the difference) at Danbury on August 1st.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't forget Shore Line East in Connecticut -don't they use the FL-9?
SLE uses GP40's. There are pleanty of FL-9's on the New Haven, some of which might work into GCT.
The Business section of Saturday's Inquirer has a front page article on Acela at its half-way point (half of the fleet is running now). Amtrak is pleased that ridership is 6% below forcast, since business travel is down 20% from last year.
Trainset #15 (power cars 2007-2028) began its revenue service 12 days ago. Therefore, the number of trainsets in revenue service increases to 11.
Chaohwa
/*Amtrak is pleased that ridership is 6% below forcast, since business travel is down 20% from last year. */
And given that complaints are running 3X what the Metroliner ran, I wouldn't expect ridership to stay high forever. Nothing kills a product faster than word of mouth.
I rode the metroliner once, It was nice, expect it was too expensive and rode like a 70's Harley Shovelhead. But it was nice otherwise. I've been on the acela express, and frankly, it's not impressive at all.
For those of us north of NYP, Acela Express is a great improvement.
Of my five round-trips so far, I've had two legs that were late (one by one hour; the other 1:20). Each time, I have received a voucher for the FULL COST of the leg as part of the "Service Guarantee." There is NOT a $50 limit, and I didn't even have to ask. When is the last time United Airlines did that for a late flight?
My experience on the Express, the one time I've ridden it, was superb. My last trip on the Corridor (WAS-NWK) was on a Regional cattle car; not bad, but I wish there had been an Express heading out at the time I got to Union Station (the trip was the return leg of an unplanned journey and I needed to take the first available arrival time, I didn't have the luxury of waiting for a nicer ride that would get in later).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I rode first class on the Metroliner - dinner was great, the vibration was above average but the experience was a good one.
You are right about the significance of complaints. Amtrak has a little honeymoon period where they can work out the kinks - but then, they need to work out the kinks!
Ok, so maybe the virbration isn't as bad as a 70's Harley, but I found it to be a bit high and annoying. My experience was good too. 1 hour from Philly to NY isn't too bad, and we were a few minutes early into NY. If all of Amtrak's corridor trains matched or beat that, in terms of speed and OTP, they'd be a LOT better off today. The trouble is, they don't.
The incedence of complaints right now is a problem for Acela. It could go down as the kinks get worked out of the service, or, it could go up, as customers become more critical and demanding (This %^&%^ train has been running a year and it's still not on time?!?). People tend to brag about great experiences or bad ones, and after a few people in the office start their Acela experience with "It was ok until the train broke down...", then people aren't going to be too interested in trying it.
And office gossip moves fast!
They're off to a rocky start now. People can be forgiving (Anyone even remember what the Metroliner was like in '69 - '70?) or they can remember real well. If the Acela Express falls into the typical Amtrak trap of high prices, bad service, rude employees, then it's going to be doomed, and it'll set back any hope of progress on HSR *anywhere* in the US.
Agreed.
Since when are Amtrak employees rude? All of the employees I have EVER encountered on Amtrak have been nothing but nice and helpful.
Since they first started running trains. Not ALL but some, and the lack of attention to job performance is still there. Two incidents from a recent trip to Spokane serve to illustrate. On the westbound Empire Builder when we finally (around 3AM instead of scheduled 12:45)were allowed to board, a woman ahead of me was told she could not have a window seat, then I was assigned one. We switched which resulted in the attendant yelling at us. (we were both going to Portland the end of the line). Then in conversation with the conductor the attendant referred to the passengers in the next coach as behaving like cockroaches(spreading out to take advantage of double seats).
Several nights laer on the Coast Starlight, the attendant wasn't rude she was a shirker. We had barely left Eugene Ore (5:30 PM) when she dissappeared until the next morning.
Yeah, that happens sometimes. You deserve better.
I've ridden the Silver Star, the Broadway Limited and Lake Shore Limited, the Zephyr, the Southwest Chief, the Coast Starlight and the Desert Wind. Always had a good crew, eager to serve. Of course I tend to engage them. It's a participatory sport with me.
What is the Desert Wind?
Used to run Los Angeles to Salt Lake City via Las Vegas, then become part of #6 to Chicago. (#5 Chicago - SLC, then split to LA as the Desert Wind).
It was a dialy train for awhile, then thrice weekly, then nothing. Everyone thinks there should be a train from LA to Las Vegas...but the train used to take almost seven hours (IF it was on time, hey, we're talking Amtrak...) -- you can drive it in 4.5 hours if there is no traffic.
A cool train - it stopped right behind the casinos!
...you can drive it in 4.5 hours if there is no traffic.
But there's NEVER no traffic on that route. I've been over that route a few times (my daughter lived in Vegas for a few years, before she and her husband decided that the cactus were greener in Kingman, Arizona - he's a trucker so they can live almost anywhere) and it was never an event-free drive... always one or two major accidents that would back traffic up for miles. 5.5 - 6 hours in the car was the norm.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
L.A. to Vegas is still way better than Phoenix to Vegas by car. U.S. 93 between Kingman and Wickenberg is basically 175 miles of two-lane highway through the mountains, and God help you if grandma or grandpa doing 45 in the Winnebago is right up ahead.
Kingman to Vegas is a pretty interesting run, especially when the four-lane road narrows down into a two-lane corkscrew going down towards Hoover Dam. But the view of the Dam and Lake Mead coming in from the Arizona side is worth it.
Agreed. I've driven the Kingman-Vegas run a couple of times (even before they moved to Kingman) and it's quite a scenic drive. Not that I'll miss the corkscrew once the new bypass is built, however... in '00 I was driving my daughter's car back from Kingman, with my older grandson (then aged 3) and his other grandpa as passengers, when a semi just two vehicles in front of me decided to jacknife. Fortunately, the way he slid left one lane open, and since we were so close it was less than half an hour before we were able to pass through, but I pity the folks a few miles back... the next day's paper said the delay was up to seven hours.
The most interesting run I've found in that area is from Needles to Kingman via old-old 66 through Oatman and McConnico... for pictures of that (and some other interesting railroad stuff, to keep at least a modicum of on-topic content), go to Anon_e_Mouse's Home Page and follow the link to Arizona - March 2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I agree about the Kingman-Vegas drive. I used to do it regularly when I drove for a tour company. It was nice, though -- the passengers all flew on a plane from the Grand Canyon to Vegas, and I just deadheaded (although at times a few folks chickened out on the plane and rode with me on the bus!!)
>>> always one or two major accidents that would back traffic up for miles. 5.5 - 6 hours in the car was the norm <<<
In my experience, I have never seen a major tie up on the road between Los Angeles and Las Vegas (but they happen from time to time), although I have suffered breakdowns. There are wind advisories from time to time, and driving through flying sand can destroy a windshield and paint job. The one regular problem was on Sunday afternoon and early evening when there was such heavy traffic toward Los Angeles that it seemed like rush hour commuting ... at 50 mph.
The train failed for the same reason passenger trains fail all over the country. The schedules were not frequent enough to be convenient, and the high rollers flew, while those on a budget could get a casino sponsored charter bus for about $10.00 round trip, with free drinks on the bus and a shorter travel time than the train.
Tom
I NEVER have any trouble making it in 4.5 hours myself. Of course, I make it a point to leave around 6 a.m., so I am going the opposite way of the traffic. And I leave Las Vegas before 8 a.m. on the way home. And I do NOT drive like a maniac...I keep it at the speed limit. Can't afford to have any points on my record as my job is bus operator with a major transit agency, and they monitor our driver licenses quite closely. (besides, the fines are quite expensive too!)
Oh, and I NEVER travel on Friday or Sunday. That's just insane, with all these southern Californians heading up there and back on those days. Some of us have brains enough to avoid the traffic.
Serving tha LA-Vegas market wasn't really its purpose. It enabled people from intermediate Zephyr point east of SLC access to Vegas and LA. They usually filled a coach with endpoint (LAX-CHI) passengers as well. The Ambus from Denver to a N.M. station on the Chief route attempts to do that today, but is barely patronized.
Station was inside Union Plaza Hotel, train never on time. The plan is for a new train with AM LA Dept and 5 hour ride and turn around, Station to be off the strip
Aren't they thinking of using a TALGO on that route? I rode it
between Seattle & Portland. It's a very nice train. But it was
nearly empty--very sad!!
Question -- who is going to have $ to gamble, if they have to ride Amtrak to get there?
I know that *I* am someone who rides Amtrak by choice, but my understanding is that most of the American population ride Amtrak because they don't have a car or can't have a car.
...my understanding is that most of the American population ride Amtrak because they don't have a car or can't have a car.
My experience has been largely confined to the New York-Washington trains, the Cardinal, and the Silver Service and Carolinian routes. That said, I'll offer my observations. The New York-Washington trains are largely patronized by people who don't choose to drive, be they students, businessmen, or little old ladies. Most of these folks could drive but prefer the train for one reason or another. The Cardinal is largely populated by the leisure traveller, someone who is not in any particular hurry to get where they are going, and who again does not choose to drive but most likely could. The Silver Service trains have two distinct classes of passenger: the sleeping car folks, most of whom could drive but choose not to, and the coach class folks, a large number (half of the adults, who with their dependents represent three quarters of the coach passengers) of whom are not in a position to drive. A large number of the coach class passengers seem to be military dependents, coming from or going to the bases in North and South Carolina. The Carolinian south of Washington is almost entirely populated by those who do not have the option of driving.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The New York-Washington trains are largely patronized by people who don't choose to drive, be they students, businessmen, or little old ladies. Most of these folks could drive but prefer the train for one reason or another. The Cardinal is largely populated by the leisure traveller, someone who is not in any particular hurry to get where they are going, and who again does not choose to drive but most likely could. The Silver Service trains have two distinct classes of passenger: the sleeping car folks, most of whom could drive but choose not to, and the coach class folks, a large number (half of the adults, who with their dependents represent three quarters of the coach passengers) of whom are not in a position to drive. A large number of the coach class passengers seem to be military dependents, coming from or going to the bases in North and South Carolina. The Carolinian south of Washington is almost entirely populated by those who do not have the option of driving.
Interesting observations ... but on what do you base your judgment as to whether the people are in any position to drive? Appearances can be deceiving, after all.
...on what do you base your judgment as to whether the people are in any position to drive? Appearances can be deceiving, after all.
Yes, appearances can be deceiving, so you're right to wonder about my admittedly unscientific assessment. I have ridden most of those trains many times, and I have a habit of striking up conversations with a variety of different folks while riding; in the course of such conversations the subject of "why the train" usually comes up. The ridership reasons that I've gleaned from these discussions are reflected in my observations. Beyond that, a lot of folks are pretty categorizable, and/or their comments to others around them, overheard as I walk around the train from time to time, tend to substantiate my observations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, it is supposed to get Talgo equipment. There is one trainset painted with blue and grey instead of the green and brown as on the rest of the Pacific Northwest trainsets -- the blue and grey one is the Las Vegas set.
It IS presently in use on the Pacific Northwest services. At the rate things are going with the UP line between LA and Las Vegas, I seriously doubt it will EVER run where it was originally intended. They might as well just paint it green and brown to match the rest of the sets up north!!
There are actually supposed to be a couple stations in Las Vegas. One will be just north of Tropicana Avenue adjacent tot he Rio Hotel & Suites. The area for the platforms was graded and levelled a couple years ago, and an overpass for passengers was to be built. It got as far as the dirt being levelled, which can be seen from the parking structure of the Rio.
As for it taking five hours from LA, that's a bunch of hogwash. The slow running speeds over Cajon Pass and on the UP line between Yermo and the state line, due to mountainous territory, would prohibit any decent speed of operation.
The only bad employees I have ever encountered are the coach attendants, and that is about 1/4 of the ones I have encountered. Most have been eliminated, which is good. Now the conductors have less time to spend counting tickets in the lounge car.
We switched which resulted in the attendant yelling at us. (we were both going to Portland the end of the line). Then in conversation with the conductor the attendant referred to the passengers in the next coach as behaving like cockroaches(spreading out to take advantage of double seats).
Yes, I got the same damn thing when I was on the Southwestern Chief. Something about changing seats really puts a bee in their bonet on the long distance trains. I think it has to do w/ the fact that the trains sell out and all the seats are reserved. If someone isn't sitting in a seat they "will" be and that can cause quite a hassle. To be fair it wasn't one of the official crew (ie a C/O), but some staffer seat attendant.
The conductors and food service personell are sometimes TOO nice.
The conductors and food service personell are sometimes TOO nice.
Hey Mike, you just watch it. I read Subtalk too, even though I don't have my internet connexion at the moment.
Lexcie
I am surprised by this performance on Amtrak West with (presumably) a Seattle Crew. If I were you, I would write to the Customer Relations people on Amtrak West, quoting the date and the coach # in which you were travelling. Amtrak West upholds a quality standard higher than most of the Amtrak System. Of course, they also lose more money than (almost) everyone else, but we won't go there...
I agree. I travelled around the country (NYC-Chicago-Seattle-Portland
-Los Angeles-Orlando-NYC) with Amtrak last year. ALL the Amtrak
staff couldn't have been nicer. What a pleasant change from
American Airlines ("Get on, sit down & shut up").
I even went out with one of the attendants in San Diego.
Her father was a retired TA employee, as it turned out, thought I was a major jerk, and showed it...
Her father was a retired TA employee, as it turned out, thought I was a major jerk, and showed it...
I wonder if that is covered under Amtrak's dating guarentee?
I wonder if that is covered under Amtrak's dating guarentee?
It's probably about time they had one, too. heh.
There should be one, shouln't there? My car attendant was quite cute, but what if she wasn't...
When I rode the acela express (Philadelphia to Boston), it was ok, faster than the regional though. The things that pissed me off the most were the fact that we were standing still for some time in the Levittown area just before Trenton, and then just north of Providence. The rest of the trip through RI and MA was impressive, as was Trenton to Newark. Also, New York to New Haven was not impressive on the express, and painfully slow on the regional. But it seems as if the outer tracks are under construction, for at lesat some point, so when they go back up, Amtrak should get somewhat faster. But my regional trip was extremely fast from Trenton until somewhere near Bridesburg and North Philly where it slowed down. If the regionals went at that speed for the whole route, they would deserve the name acela express themselves.
The Acelas need to be scheduled so each is the first of the time block on the track - maximizing the chances that no train will be in the track block in front of it. Catenary replacement projects make that tough, but of course they are necessary.
Has nobody even mentioned the fact that Metro North (read "annoying commuter authority") owns the track between NYC and New Haven? In fact, the ownership is split between New York State DoT and ConnDoT. early Conrail might have made $ by dumping their commuter trackage, but it's a pain in the butt now for high speed rail pushers. And the damned commuter people showed no signs of bulging. Whether we like it or not, commuters make up larger % of the population (in comparison to intercity travellers) so when they vote, they win.
Lexcie
Well, yes, Amtrak and MTA need to coexist, and MTA has customers to serve. But I don't see this as an unfriendly rivalry. Improving signalling and scheduling will produce a "win-win"situation. It isn't MTA Wins, Amtrak Loses.
I was really looking forward to my first ride on the Acela Express (NYC-Trenton, 4:50PM, Thursday) that I had treated myself to, but, alas, when we got to the platform there was a standard Metroliner consist waiting for us.
We are supposed to be able to get a refund for the difference between the Acela and the Metroliner, and we maintained the same schedule, but I was very dissapointed.
Did Amtrak offer you a club car seat?
They ran one car as first class and all the rest as business class. I was in business class. It was a regular Metroliner coach seat (more legroom than standard coach, but otherwise not much different) It rode pretty roughly at the high speeds.
At 125 mph there's quite a bit of vibration.
Also, during the winter ice cakes up the suspension system so any bumps get transmitted right through your spine...
That stinks! I hope you get many more rides on Acela in the future.
Why is this being done in the first place? Is it because of track work on WTC, Rector and South Ferry? And how you can't really have trains terminate at Chambers? If not, why???
Yes its because of the Track Work South of Cortlandt St. The only reason I can see the No.1 going to New Lots is because in order for a No.1 train to turn at Chambers and stay as a local uptown they have to terminate on Track 2 and that would delay the No.2,3 service.
So now the No.1 will be making ALL Local stops from 242 St to New Lots Ave. Last time this was done the No.1 was really something. They had the R62A's from the No.3 Line and R62's from the No.4 line running on the No.1 Line so the No.1 can keep a 6 to 8 Minute headway.
This is good news for the Brooklyn riders since they don't have to wait 12 Minutes for the No.3 train. Then on the other hand can you see how many tourist for South Ferry will end up in Brooklyn.
Does this also include the 9, or will the 9 terminate somewhere else, or cease to exist?
It's a weekend G.O. Only the 1 runs on weekends, the 9 operates only during rush hours.
I am thhhhhere!
Supposedly, theings are meant to run only during rush hours. I once saw a 9 at 10:30. Back when the M only ran from Queens to Manhattan during midday... how did rush hour service start? Did they have M on the middle track before Bay Parkway just waiting for 3:30 to be sent into service? How would the Ms be spread out so that people at Court St could get one going to Manhattan? Did they have to wait until one from Bay Parkway got to Court St.?
You probably saw a 1 train signed up as a 9, or a 9 train running a few minutes late (the last one in the morning is scheduled to reach South Ferry at 10:20). Or this was a few years ago, when the 9 ran middays.
As for the M, according to the July 2001 timetable that was never actually put into effect but is still posted on the TA's web page, the last weekday afternoon M from Chambers was to leave Chambers at 3:41. At 3:47 an M was to leave Broad, reaching Chambers at 3:50. The first M out of Bay Parkway was to leave at 3:17, arriving at Chambers at 4:00.
O... cool thanks... so rush hour doesn't end at 9:30 and doesn't start at 3:30 either...
The last time that the 1 ran from 242-Nlts was in 1996. They were running quite frequent. More frequent than the 4. At nights, the 1 terminated at Chambers just like the late night GO right now.
I'm a bit too young to remember, but prior to 1958, the #1 ran from 242 Street to New Lots Ave. Via the 7 Ave. Express. The # 3 was the local from 145 Street to South Ferry. Too much switching at 96 Steet, so they changed the routes. Found this out on an old train map.
How about children who are under the height requirement??? They can't possibly get in with the closed regular turnstiles, and the revolving gates can only be turned by metrocard insertion. I don't even think they accept tokens {at least not yet.} Not to mention those in the wheelchair. Who's going to open the big gate for them??? At every station, at least one entrance has to have the token clerk. Those guys have to be there, unless they get some electronic eye that tells exactly when to open the big gate or to allow a free rotation of the doors to children under 44 inches. Maybe every three months the child or ADA person will have to go to TA headquarters to get themselves measured and their picture taken and they'll get a card that lets them in free?
Small kids ride free with an adult so unless they are morbidly obese mom carries them thru the HEET. Two adults can fit thru easily and even three thin teens.
As for the wheelchairs, NYC subways are so wheelchair unfriendly that that is not a real issue.
But as a more serious answer the model they are looking at is DC, an agent for directions and for machine breakdowns and lots of cameras. Of course they also have a cop/property protection but since nost stations have one entrance it is easy for them.
I am not going to give an opinion as to whether 'part time' token booths should be completely unmanned. But you made three points in your posting that I want to comment on.
First - to the best of my knowledge, there is no height requirement when riding the NYCT. There is an age requirement. If a person is challanged by the Police for squeezing a child through the turnstile, it'll be up to that person to defend their actions.
Second - You are correct. The new 24 hour entrances do not accept tokens. While this may be a problem for some, they do have the option to switch to metrocards unless they've been hording tokens and are now depleting their stash. NYCT intends to obsolete tokens in the not too distant future (IIRC).
Third - the question of accessibility. If a station is wheelchair accessible, it is usually the entrance that is manned 24 hours that has the elevator etc. Therefore, that's a non-issue. What will be an issue are the people with strollers and bicycles who now may have to walk an extra block to a manned entrance. Since neither should be allowed on trains during peak periods, anyway, and I find them both a danger and a nuiscence, I say a pox on both of them.
Finally, is the issue of safety (and I was not going to touch on this but I'm on a roll now). Granted, unmanned entrances lack an extra set of eyes and ears. I use an unmanned entrance at Bedford Park Blvd. that is unlocked until midnight. If I felt unsafe, I'd walk to the manned entrance. I think all right-thinking individuals would do likewise. Having said that, it is the policy of the NYCT that an employee witnessing a crime must call for assistance. They are not supposed to intervene directly. There are several cases where NYCT employees did allegedly come to a person's aid and were injured and are now being denied 'differential' pay for their worker's comp. Hence, I would not look to the person in the booth to do much more that call for police - and hope that there is a donut shop outside of the station.
Having said that, it is the policy of the NYCT that an employee witnessing a crime must call for assistance. They are not supposed to intervene directly. There are several cases where NYCT employees did allegedly come to a person's aid and were injured and are now being denied 'differential' pay for their worker's comp. Hence, I would not look to the person in the booth to do much more that call for police - and hope that there is a donut shop outside of the station.
I'd say NYCT is on very shaky legal ground. If I recall correctly, a common carrier has a fairly high degree of responsibility for its riders' safety. It's not hard to imagine that a do-not-intervene policy could result in a huge damage award against NYCT. In fact, IIRC that's already happened at least once.
Although I'm definitely not much of a supporter of personal injury lawsuits, this is one sort of judgment I'd love to see, as it just might force a change in policy.
A friend of mine, former "private" bus driver told me that they were instructed not to put themselves in any danger, don't you think that a token booth staffer, by calling police has fullfilled one's employee's legal obligations?
Arti
Well let me go on record as saying if a customer were being menaced by an armed assailant, I'll be the first to call for help. However, short of Christy Brinkley, Kim Bassenger, or a few others, I ain't getting further involved.
As an EMT on an ambulance squad, the NATIONAL STANDARD for such situations is to protect yourself. You can help no one if you are dead or injured.
The question you need to ask yourself is "IS THE SCENE SAFE."
A victim may be bleeding to death on the floor, but until the sheriff (well, I guess you guys use cops...) is there and the scene is safe, we do not go in.
We recently delayed help to a drug OD, because we could not verify that it was safe to enter the house. (Heck... this is the second call this year for a drug OD in our town.... I just don't know *what* this world is coming to!)
Anyway.... A token (or station agent) has no business putting himself in a dangerous situation that *first* needs to be controled by police.
This is different from an emergency involving subway structure and safety. In some instances, it is the agent who is best qualified to provide this safety, such as heping to evacuate a tunnel or something.
Elias
As an EMT on an ambulance squad, the NATIONAL STANDARD for such situations is to protect yourself. You can help no one if you are dead or injured.
The question you need to ask yourself is "IS THE SCENE SAFE."
A victim may be bleeding to death on the floor, but until the sheriff (well, I guess you guys use cops...) is there and the scene is safe, we do not go in.
Well, I totally disagree. We need more courage in this world, less fearfulness. "Let the police handle it" is simply not acceptable in many cases.
If that's the way you feel; When I get a report of an armed passenger on my train I hope you will be there to go investigate the situation.
I think you're way off the mark on this one. If you get a call that someone has been shot in a house, there's no way anyone is going in there until an armed individual enters and tells you it's clear. There was a recent case of 5 fireman in the Carolinas that this happened to; Third Watch ripped it off for an episode.
-Hank
The requirements to intervene end with a call to 911. It is against the law to not do ANYTHING, but perfectly legal to do nothing more than make a phone call. That is because someone (even a cop) going to the aid of any individual has a responsibilty to their own safety first, all others are secondary.
-Hank
The requirements to intervene end with a call to 911. It is against the law to not do ANYTHING, but perfectly legal to do nothing more than make a phone call.
It may be legal, but that doesn't mean that a jury won't give out enormous damages awards against the TA.
Or a supermarket, a hospital, an office building, a shopping mall, a baseball stadium...
Once you've done whatever was in your power to help a victim, you're absolved. So says the state of New York. No person is expected to risk their life to save another, with the notable exception of firefighters. But even they won't go into a building that's heavily involved.
-Hank
Which is why juries don't get the last word in deciding civil suits.
After the verdict come post-trial motions and appeals, which may decrease (or, in some states, increase) the damages awarded by a jury or result in a new trial.
>>> It is against the law to not do ANYTHING, but perfectly legal to do nothing more than make a phone call. <<<
What you are describing is a "Good Samaritan Law" which is a fairly recent thing and not in most jurisdictions. In most jurisdictions a person witnessing a crime has no legal duty to do anything to apprehend the perpetrator or assist the victim as long as he has done nothing to put the victim in danger.
Tom
It is against the law to not do ANYTHING, but perfectly legal to do nothing more than make a phone call.
What you are describing is a "Good Samaritan Law" which is a fairly recent thing and not in most jurisdictions. In most jurisdictions a person witnessing a crime has no legal duty to do anything to apprehend the perpetrator or assist the victim as long as he has done nothing to put the victim in danger.
The discussion was concerning transit employees witnessing crimes in stations or on trains. Ordinary bystanders aren't required to do anything.
Nor are transit employees required to do anything more than request assistance.
-Hank
.>>> The discussion was concerning transit employees witnessing crimes in stations or on trains <<<
I would expect the requirement for transit employees to call for help would be a work rule, which might result in loss of a job for failure to obey it, rather than a law with either criminal or civil sanctions enforced by the state.
Tom
It existed well before the well-publicized incident of foreign origin. I learned about it when I was 14, in the Boy Scouts, and taking a CPR training course required for all Scouts attending summer camp. It's connected with the law that absolves a civilian of liability if, for example, they observe you choking and their actions caused another injury (most commonly broken ribs)
-Hank
>>> It's connected with the law that absolves a civilian of liability if, for example, they observe you choking and their actions caused another injury (most commonly broken ribs) <<<
Civilians have always been held to the reasonable person standard for giving emergency medical aid. There are no laws which absolve them of all liability. For instance if you think the best way to rouse an unconscious automobile accident victim is to twist his head from side to side as far as it will go, and a spinal injury is exacerbated, you may very well be liable. States have passed laws which state that a physician rendering emergency first aid will be held to no higher standard than an ordinary person. This prevents medical malpractice suits against a doctor giving first aid citing their medical training. These laws were passed when it was perceived that medical doctors would bypass an accident scene without rendering aid because of a fear of a medical malpractice suit, particularly if their specialty was not emergency medicine.
Tom
One would assume you wouldn't be attempting such an act unless you had some idea of what you are doing. There's enough medical TV shows these days that anyone who watches 10 minutes of any show learns a few things (mostly of the 'Don't try this at home!' variety)
-Hank
The requirements to intervene end with a call to 911. It is against the law to not do ANYTHING, but perfectly legal to do nothing more than make a phone call. That is because someone (even a cop) going to the aid of any individual has a responsibilty to their own safety first, all others are secondary.
-Hank
"If I am not for myself, who is for me? If I am only for myself, what am I?"
-Hillel
Can anyone summarize the dates and times of the upcoming GOs so I and others can plan ahead with where we want to be and at what times for good picture-taking? Any responses would be greatly appreciated.
The complete list is on the Weekly Subway Service Advisories page.
I posted a capsule summary in post 252514 of some of the ones that appear most interesting.
If anyone gets the GO bulletin for the route the train is going to take, would you mind posting that info here?
-Stef
The weekend of the excursion, W Trains to Coney Island are scheduled to run on the N Line from 36th St to Stillwell Av. Being that's the case, I wonder how this will affect the D-Types? The train may have to be pikced up by diesels in Coney Island Yard instead of 38th St, although the trackage may be open going ino the Yard, just not on the mainline. Heh. It could be a one way trip to the piers, down to the Bay Ridge Line and up into Linden Yard. WISHFUL THINKING.
Food for thought.
-Stef
Can you find the G.O. for the train itself?
I know when the Museum train runs it get's its own G.O., lists the crew call and the route.
You guys gotten your tickets in the mail yet?
I haven't...I'm starting to get worried. Have you?
Dan
If the W is running southbound on the N, then there will probably NOT be any access to the waterfront from north of 9th Ave.
Not necessarily true. I recall working a G.O. 3110 where southbound trains ran down the NX, while miscellaneous transfers, collector 7 and Eastern Pickup worked southbound from 9th Avenue. If they are working in "Rock Tunnel" as on a recent manifest I spotted, the service is suspended between 9th And 36, not south of 9th.
Well, let's just say for argument sake, the work is South of 9th Av. The Museum train just needs a lineup to the Yard, to be picked up by diesels and taken to the piers. I think a trip to the lower level is in order!
-Stef
I'll see what I can do, Stef.
BMTman
Because of the recent discussion of wheel detectors, I did some checking about truck sizes & axle spacing. I found with just two exceptions, all NYCT R-type subway car trucks used a standard 82" axle spacing on either truck. The 2 exceptions were the R-1/9 which had 84" spacing on the power truck and 75" spacing on the trailer truck. The other was the R-11 which also had 84" spacing. According to the record drawings, this remained after the R-34 overhaul.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the axle spacing on the path fleets?
According to a diagram on Mike Steinberg's web site for the PA-4, it's 8' 10" (106 inches) but that seems too big.
Considering the tight turns that PATH has, that would seem a little large. That's about the same spacing on the DMs on the LIRR,
Sorry, it's *6* ft 10 inches, not 8 ft.
That makes more sense. That's the NYCT dimension. Thanks Dave
This includes the R-142, right?
I don't have the drawings for the R-142/R-143 yet. The R-110A used standard 6'10" spacing on its trucks but the R-110B used 7'1" onits trucks. I discounted both of them, however since they are prototypes with a very uncertain future. The R-11s (your next question) servived over 30 years and underwent one overhaul.
Thank you.
Ok, while we're on the subject, what is it on the LIRR MU's? They always looked a little long. Or is it an optical illusion? Then again, a longer spacing on the truck I believe increases high speed stability, and the M-1's were made to *go*
Oh yeah, TD, any ideas on those schematics yet? (did you see my post a while back about kinkos?)
I saw it and, duh, I have staples just a short distance from here. Next week I'll be on vacation and will take care of that little matter.
\
This is one of my favorite transit photos which I use as a screen saver. It has been identified as Queensboro Plaza, and when I first saw it I thought the bridge was in the background. But if that were true, those would have to be the tracks leading to the Steinway tubes, and that is not correct, since those are not the IRT tracks west of Queensboro Plaza.
The trainsets all appear to be Q-type cars. Can anyone tell me where the camera was located (i.e. what street intersection) and what compass direction it was pointing (and the approximate date) when this picture was taken? What are the two lines depicted?
Tom
By looking at the picture I get the feeling that the shot was taken at the east end of Queens Plaza with the camera looking east. I think the curve is when the Astoria line comes south and is turning west prior to entering Queens Plaza station.
The picture shows three trains. Perhaps if the picture can be enlarged or you can zoom in you might be able to make out the destination signs. IIRC the trolley came over the QB bridge, went thru the plaza, turned left on Jackson Ave and then curved to the right on to Northern Blvd.
I think the Queens Blvd viaduct over the Sunnyside Rail Yards (the one under construction today) on the right side of the pic is what you're mistaking for the Steinway Tubes or outer roadway of the bridge. Also if this shot was facing west, I think you'd see the bridge tower(s) in the background.
I think the shot is looking somewhat north well to the east of the Queensboro station, which ought ot be out of the picture to the left.
The Queensboro Bridgw will be in that direction too.
The top most train would then be headed to Astoria, with the upper train headded to Flushing and the lower one headded into the Queensboro station.
Elias
Hello Hart Bus:
What does IIRC mean?
Michael
If I Recall Correctly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This copyrighted photo, for which I have the original negative, was taken in 1948 by Robert Wasche, who took thousands of photos of the subways, elevateds, buses, streetcars and trolleybuses all over the New York City metropolitan area from 1946 thru the mid-1950s. Recently, I purchased his negative collection and the reproduction rights to it. The photo was taken at the eastern end of Queens Plaza looking generally southeast. The trolley below the structure is of a Queensboro Bridge Railway Master Unit parked at the Queens Plaza terminal prior to returing to Manhattan. All three trains are on the Astoria Line. I have quite a number of beautiful aerial-type views of the entire Queensborough Plaza el structure, as it was originally constructed, looking both east (towards Queens) and west (towards Manhattan).
>>> All three trains are on the Astoria Line. <<<
Joe;
Thanks for the information, sorry about the copyright violation. No copyright was listed on the site I linked to. You might want to contact that Webmaster.
Although I understand that the two curving tracks in the foreground are Astoria tracks going to the upper and lower North side of the BMT half of QBP, I still cannot picture how the third track in the background fits in. It looks like it would be a connection between the Astoria line and the Flushing line, bypassing QBP, but I have never seen any track plans indicating any such thing.
Tom
The track plan is here:
1920 IRT El Map
there were turn around tracks on the flushing line that went jsut over sunnyside yards. if you were to ride the #7 train ino manhattan youshould still be able to see the remains of these structures as they decline down toward queens plaza and the actually end if i recall right on a right hand turn right under where the astoria lines turns. got to admit it must have been one heck of a complicated juction.
jv
>>> there were turn around tracks on the flushing line that went jsut over sunnyside yards <<<
Those turn around tracks were not connected to the Astoria line though. They were for the BMT trains from Manhattan which could go no further than QBP at that time because all the stations were IRT size on both the Flushing and Astoria lines.
>>> if you were to ride the #7 train ino manhattan youshould still be able to see the remains of these structures as they decline down toward queens plaza <<<
The last time I rode the #7 the structures themselves, not just remains were there. :-)
Tom
>>> It looks like it would be a connection between the Astoria line and the Flushing line, bypassing QBP <<<
OK! Here's where I slap myself on the forehead and say "Dummkopf". The background track is obviously a connection to the IRT side of QBP. But then, why are there Q-type cars on it instead of IRT metal cars? The 1948 date seems correct from the vehicles on the street, so this was long after the 2nd Avenue El stopped going to Astoria.
My own memory, which others on the board convinced me was faulty, was of a cross platform transfer from IRT trains to Q-type BMT cars in QBP in early 1948? Is it possible that the Q-types were pulling into the old 2nd Avenue El platforms as well as the North side platforms?
Tom
tom i believe that this picture is taken facing east. the station is to the right of the photographer, the bridge is behind him. what you are looking at is the turn going up the bmt line to astoria. i use to travel into manhattan by car and if you look to the road comming from the right under the el that should be queens blvd where it crossed over sunny side yards,( right past the small building )and the flushing line is above it on the right side of the picture, the truck to your right is in front of it. i believe this to be true. this picture seems to have been taken around the time of the 1939 worlds fair. hope i was able to help
TOM: This photo was taken probably about 1948, 1949 just before the Q types were removed from the Flushing & Astoria El Lines, and yes, there are 3 trains of Q types.
The view is looking East towards 3lst Street with the Astoria Line el structure bearng onto 3lst Street going left to the north and Astoria.
The Upper Q type at the very top left is on the sole structurework existing today for Astoria bound trains - the very highest curved trackwork shown in your photo. The lower two Q types are on the BMT Side (north side of Queens Plaza ) lower tracks heading into and out-of Queens Plaza shuttle tracks.
The entire structure on the north half (two tracks, on two levels with two platforms) of The Queens
Plaza junction station, were abandoned about 1950 when the Q types were overhauled and sent to the 3rd Ave. El in Manhattan & Bronx for express-only use and the BMT was given the Astoria route after its wooden station platforms were cut back 6 inches to clear the 10' wide BMT subway stock.
All of the lower structure under the two closest Q type 3-car trains is gone since the 1950 abandoned
north half was removed around 1961 or so - I have photos of some of that demolition. I have a photo taken in nearly the same spot (in 1962) as your photo but closer to the residential sidewalk at left showing all the lower structure removed and a train
of BMT Div. R-types on the top-most level trackwork
heading east to north on the curve - on to the
Astoria Line El structure over 3lst Street--and the whole north plaza-side structure under the 2 forward most Q types in your photo (one Q on top of the other - both rounding the curve) is gone (since the early 60's.) BTW this is a great shot - I have saved it in my folder-file. YES - the UPPER level Q type at upper left would appear as I believe you thought - to be the 2nd Ave. El coming off the 59th Street Bridge - and the lower tracks being the
Flushing line 2-level entry tracks to the QB plaza station but the angles are wrong for the curve tracks with the 2 Q types and the higher-track in the background (misinterpreted bridge approach IRT track) . By the time your photo was taken, the Q types were painted NY BOT Dark Green with silver roofs and ' New York City Transit System ' in white on the letterboards - and the 2nd Ave. El connection was discontinued in 1942 and remnants of the ramps
from the 2 ave. el on the bridge were all that remained - and were NOT connected by any track to the QB station IRT or BMT through-tracks to Flushing or Astoria at the west (bridge) end of station
I also note the Osgood Bradley Queensboro Bridge westbound trolley heading out from its loop
off 3lst Street under the massive el structure junction overhead - enroute to the Bridge (behind the photographer) and the delivery truck turning north into 3lst Street (under el at left background and crossing the plaza roadway also) from its travel off the QB Bridge and under the el station (out of view behind and to right of the photographer).
Also note to the right center edge of photo is the lower steel lattice-cross-bracing under the main track deckwork of the Flushing Line elevated as it follows Queens Boulevard on top of the auto bridge over the LIRR Sunnyside yard tracks - as the line still does today. Great photo Tom - wonder how all 3 Q types got caught together in same proximity!!
Regards - Joe - NYCMTS
>>> wonder how all 3 Q types got caught together in same proximity!! <<<
I found this strange also, since one would expect IRT equipment on the track in the background. As I noted in another post, I seem to remember cross platform transfers from the IRT to Q-type cars on the old QBP 2nd Ave. tracks in early 1948. It is possible that they stopped on the North side of both QBP platforms.
Tom
Hello Tom - here is some data from my files from 1949 --explaining the El "Q" types on the tracks they were shown;
(a) At 12:01 AM--July 24, 1949, IRT thru subway service to Astoria from Times Square ended. Riders for the interim - on the IRT Flushing subway (Manhattan) line bound for Astoria had to take Flushing-bound only IRT trains to Queens Plaza station. There, they would walk across the SAME upper-level platform (present day IRT line
Flushing bound platform) to the track that served the former IRT 2nd Ave. El Queensbound trains from the 59th St. Bridge. This track, incidentally, was still connected westward out of the upper station platform and continued onto the raised single (Ramp) Queens-bound 2nd Ave El track....and went down-grade towards the 59th St. Bridge to meet with the paralelling lower level 2nd Ave. El Manhattanbound track. The 2nd Ave. El Manhattan bound track was directly under the the 2nd Ave El Queens bound track of the platform described above. The 2nd Ave El Inbound (lower) and Queens-bound (upper) tracks met at grade on the 59th St. Bridge deckwork and were connected with a switch track. From the switch track an 8 car long single track continued westward and began its uphill ascent toward the steel arched portal on the 59th Street Bridge and ended at a bumper. The stub track was on the location of the former Manhattanbound 2nd Ave. El mainline bridge entrance trackway. The Queens bound 2nd Ave. track coming off the bridge to the ramp to the upper level platform was removed just west of the ramp's bottom --and the ramp bottom was connected to the ex-Manhattan-bound 2nd Ave. El track by the switch I mentioned drawn below with dotted lines showing abandoned track and dash lines
active track coming off the 59 St.Bridge structure.
West. . . . .+---------\--------<---from lower level
East. . . . . . . . . . .\------>--ramp-upper level
I Hope the track map shows properly and doesnt get screwed up in the transmission which happens!!
Getting back to our passengers - IRT passengers
crossed the platform to the waiting Q-Car El Shuttle labeled IRT LINES - Astoria. The El train departed and went left (northeast) out of station's upper level and rode the HIGH elevated structure seen in the background of your photo (the Q train on what you called the IRT connective trackage in the high-up background IS an IRT Astoria-bound temporary el train shuttle) and continued to the Tower interlocking just southwest of the Beebe Ave. station. The BMT Lines shuttles - also Q types -
still used their original northbound-side dual (upper & lower level) platforms ....and the Q type on the track closest to the photographer in your photo is headed into Queens plaza (BMT-side) lower level..& the Q type behind it is going outbound to Astoria.
Going back to the "temporary" IRT El car Q-type shuttles ---a train of them leaving Astoria would
leave Beebe Avenue, switch left to the westerly of two center tracks. NOTE: the 3 track mainline at the tower became 4 tracks. - the two inner tracks went on the HIGH structure over 3lst St. to the IRT (southerly) Queensboro Station platforms. The Two outer tracks descended---- with the easterly or Astoria bound track ducking under the steelwork of the higher two center (IRT platform bound) tracks ----and both these outer tracks connecting to the BMT (north side of station plaza) platforms.
Upon entering the westerly (of two) center tracks,
the IRT Q-type el shuttle continued southwesterly
along 3lst St alignment - crossed over the lower
(mentioned paragraph above) BMT shuttle Astoria bound (outside) track - then descended to the LOWER
level IRT (southerly) platform onto the Manhattan-bound ex-2nd Ave. El track.
THAT very track is the PRESENT BMT subway Manhattan bound track of today.
The Manhattan bound Flushing TO Times Square IRT subway train
would stop across the platform (on the same track it does today).
The Q-type el IRT SHUTTLE would discharge passengers - head west out of the lower level platform and ascend the rising grade onto the Queensbro bridge structure. Above and to the left was the ramp coming down to the bridge from the (Queens-bound) upper level 2d ave. El track. The Q shuttle would climb
the grade to near the bridge portal...meet and cross the switch track from the connecting-at-grade ramp track---go one more trainlength west to the bumper and stop. Crew would change ends..train would proceed back to switch, switch to the right. ascend the ramp-track (2nd Ave. El Queens-bound remnant structure located on the 59th St. Bridge steelwork)
upward and into the upper level of the IRT
Flushing Line platform....stopping across from IRT Times Square TO Flushing steel subway trains.
Leaving the platform, the IRT LINES Q-type shuttle
veered left and over the very high track structure
towards the Astoria El structure over 3lst St and the Beebe Tower and interlocking (described above)
Tom...if you've gotten all this -it is strange because it was still possible to run IRT SUBWAY trains to Astoria during this summer of 1949 IRT EL shuttle arrangement. I can only assume that because the Q-type El "IRT LINES" temporary shuttles were using the very upper and lower level tracks that the BMT SUBWAY (steel) cars would be using by October 17, 1949 (the permanent changeover) this shuttle stunt was a public service "educatory" setup to get IRT passengers used to "changing to the BMT for travel to Astoria only - no more IRT thru "one seat"
rides from Manhattan to Astoria.
On Friday, October 14, 1949, sometime before midnight, the NYCTS (System, not Authority) withdrew the BMT LINES Q-Type el shuttles from the IRT Flushing El line. Also around this same time, BMT (Broadway) subway steel trains began using the northern-most lower level track for arrivals and departures to and from Broadway subway, temporarily. During early to mid day Saturday. Oct. 15, 1949, transit workers started cutting back wooden station platforms 6 inches on the northbound (Astoria bound) track. During this time and all day Sunday, service was run by a single 6-car train of BMT Q-types. At around 5:15 sunday a test train of BMT standards with NYCTS officials went out to Astoria via the lower level of the Plaza using the former 2nd Ave. El Manhattan bound track across the platform from the Times Square bound IRT subway trains'
Flushing line track....same tracks both presently
used today. A BMT Standard train ran Shuttle service on the northbound track while the southbound track platforms (served by the Q type shuttle for 24 hrs.) were cut back.
By Monday, Oct. 17, 1949 - the permanent change became affective and the track plan at Queens Plaza as we know it today for BMT & IRT divisions started.
Thru BMT subway train service to Astoria commenced.
The northern half of the station with its dual level platforms and 2 upper and 2 lower level tracks--was abandoned totally by 1950. By 1961-62 the entire north structure was demolished and removed.
This might explain all those Q types at the same time...especially the one on the higher IRT connecting track!! Guess your photo questions are solved, I hope, Tom !
Regards, Joe at NYCMTS
Thanks, Joe. There's nothing as good as a first-person walkthrough!
Is there any photos of the underground Manhattan trolley station ?
as i recall it was a loop with several tracks it came off the Queensboro bridge then went into the underground terminal my uncle took me there one day in the early 60's.
Thanks Karl
Did anyone attend the Atlanta Train Show today?
From 8/16/01, USA Today, page 5A:
Chinese railroad builders think they can build first railway to Tibet
It is among the most audacious railroad projects anywhere, ever.
The Chinese government embarked last month on another attempt to build the first railway to the Tibetan capital, Lhasa. That means laying 710 miles of track from this remote outpost in Qinghai province across some of the world's toughest terrain: desert, mountains, frozen ground, mostly at elevations over 13,000 feet.
continues at:
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010816/3548496s.htm
The Chinese government embarked last month on another attempt to build the first railway to the Tibetan capital, Lhasa. That means laying 710 miles of track from this remote outpost in Qinghai province across some of the world's toughest terrain: desert, mountains, frozen ground, mostly at elevations over 13,000 feet.
It'll probably take them less time than it took to finish the last 1,500 feet of the 63rd Street tunnel.
"It'll probably take them less time than it took to finish the last 1,500 feet of the 63rd Street tunnel."
If MTA could completely shut down subway service on Queens Blvd. for a year, and MTA police could shoot people on sight for complaining about it, the 63rd St line could have been finished very quickly.
Why don't you write to Chairman Kalikow and suggest he study Chinese planning strategies?
In China they get things done. At the rate things are going China is going to have more railways than we have here in the U.S., if that's not happened already.
If you do railfan there, one word of caution, watch out for the DRAGON clips.
*Dragon clips are large, oversized hairclips that chinese women wear, and they are gonna get you!
There are plenty of dragon clip wearers in the United States.
I like hair like society: Free.
Yes you'll see plenty of dragon clips in Chinatown and Brooklyn. Not too many in Flushing, but you can pretty much see them anywhere.
While waiting for my bus home I was watching the train coming into the station from Penn and some cuties wearing dragon clips got off.
"In China they get things done."
If we had what essentially amounts to a massive slave labour force here in the City, with inhumane working conditions and uncounted fatalities buried amidst the ROW all in the name of progress, if we could simply relocate people without any regard, and trample the environment in the progress, well, we could build it too.
I'm a big railfan, but I'll take the Bill of Rights over new railway construction any day. Poor China, when will they learn that greatness is not measured in might, but in mercy?
MATT-2AV
For that money they could subsidize the prices of goods for centuries and just throw away all the local production. IMO,up in par with Behring Straits tunnel, or even worse.
Arti
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Friday on my way home, I was shortcutting through Penn Station, when someone stopped me and said he collected train keys. Any chance it was one of you folks?
How many are there to collect these days? I remember only three different keys and one of those (the coast recorder) was obsolete by the time I stepped on ...
... and there, I'm not considering "cut" and "reverser" as keys or that'd make five ... them's wrenches to me ...
GODDAMNIT I NEED A GODDAMN REVERSER KEY, SOME CHURCH KEYS, AND A BRAKE HANDLE, someone please help. Im willing to pay good $$$ at least for the church keys. (file downs- as they're called in the graffiti world)
Heh. We gotta start one of those FUNDS ... Public Service announcements on channel 9, the whole clip ... well, for what it's worth, I was a good boy when I left the property - turned in my entire bag of tricks, tin, everything. Wouldn't give me my last check until I did. :)
aww hell, this guy was selling a brake handle on E-bay, boy was i stupid enough NOT to buy it, please anyone please help me, Thats all I want for my birthday, and spray cheese, no one ever gave me that.
P.S. Good boy eh? So crashing trains into the one aheadis being a good boy? I dont care how much damage was on the pipe, or how badly the brakes were working. heh heh heh, sorry if i hit a bad spot,, or bad memories.
Nah, I got over it, got told it wasn't my fault after all but wasn't invited back. Have had plenty of cab time since and never once harmed a blade of grass, much less equipment. :)
Hate to say this though, the set of handles I had wouldn't have bought you much, not even on the IRT ... well ... maybe the cutting key woulda worked but somehow I suspect even that wouldn't. No place to put the electric brake plug (we called 'em "butt plugs") and the reverser was a different size from today's norm as well as far as I know.
Best o'luck on the acqusition, when you pronouce the loud "woohoo" here on the board, I suspect we'll have a lot more people willing to ride the bus. Heh.
I know the reverser is a wrench but the cutting key also?
JoeKorner to the rescue for some shots ...
Typical antique reverser key: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/handles/reverser.gif
and typical antique cutting key: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/handles/cutkey.gif
extra points - the ubiquitous "Butt plug": http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/handles/elcetricbrake.gif
OOPS!
I won't ask why it's called a butt plug.....
-Stef
Heh. Some jokes just write themselves. :)
Heypaul has a plain old box wrench for a reverse key in his R-9 cab.
Maybe I can interest Heypaul in this broken boy sprout fork for a cutting key. :)
Let's see - I've got a:
Pelham key - for the very rare redbird with the funny lock;
Drum switch key - for the redbirds (also opens the crew door);
Storm door key -again, for the redbirds;
an R-9 key - opens all the locks on the R62s and all the B Div equipment;
a Vapor key (also known as a Horne, Wabco, Nyab and 'skate' key) - to open the side doors;
Console key - to turn on the console of the 142 -comes in two varieties - original & new and improved.
Heh. I only have HALF a key ... had to split it with the conductor. :)
How do you get these? It'd be soo cool to have them and know that you have the power to get on the subway and so stuff. I could imagine at CI i'm waiting for the doors to open, and I just open them myself.
District 34 won't like that too much, and trust me, being me, I knwo how Un-Friendly District 34 gets.
What's District 34?
Transit District 34 New York City Police Department Transit Division 4 ( I think its 4 ) District 34
The police! As our poster has stated correctly it is a crime to open subway doors or closed off areas of the system, or enter non-public areas without specific approval of the Authority. (Tours organized by the Transit Museum or any division of the Authority have such approval.)
BTW, if you try this on NJT or any class one Railroad, it becomes a federal offense. Of course, in actually emergency there would be no crime.
Not to put a damper on this this subject (or maybe I should).
Possession of NYC Subway keys, brake handles etc by individuals other than those authorized by the Transit Authority is considered by the police as possession of burglery tools (I am talking about the current stuff - not the old rusted antique items).
If you have any of the recent (and still usable) keys etc in your collection - KEEP THEM THERE. Unelss you work for the TA you can be arrested if you walk around with the keys or even a brake handle.
Or possession of stolen property...
I hardly care, my use of these things would be strictly moral.
I hardly care, my use of these things would be strictly moral. For if I was to steal a train, I would operate it according to the proper procedures as best as one can, yep strictly moral.
Why not just go to the nearest NYPD Transit Bureau District Office and turn yourself in?
Your statement above shows how irresponsible you are.
HAR HAR HAR, It was a joke
Well, as I learned as a young pup ... stealing a train ain't no fun. No place to stash it. :)
They made me turn all of my trinkets in when I left the property in exchange for my last check. Got to keep the monkey suit, but they cut off the patches before they let me have that ... but yep, know the rules and all the keys I own open only my own stuff ...
T'wasn't me, but I would like to find some keys, heh.
As the Twin Cities PCC cars, sold to NJ Transit in 1953 for use on the Newark City Subway, make their final run, it is only appropriate that after 50 years with no trolleys, construction has started on a new light rail line in the Twin Cities. Part of the line will go under-ground at the MSP airport, requiring use of a tunnel-boring machine. The article describes the transport of the machine (last used in Singapore) from Duluth to the the airport via two low-loaders working in tandem!! This one is truly a "WIDE LOAD"
From the StarTribune of Minneapolis:
One big drill bit heading to MSP airport
Laurie Blake / Star Tribune
A tunnel-boring machine so big that even its pieces must be hauled by a pairs of trucks driving side by side is scheduled to arrive today at the Port of Duluth-Superior, en route to Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.
Most of the 500-ton machine has been brought by ocean freighter from Europe to dig a tunnel under the airport for the Hiawatha Avenue light-rail line.
Continues . . .
http://webserv3.startribune.com:80/stOnLine/cgi-bin/article?thisSlug=HAUL17&date=17-Aug-2001
-------
Graphic of how the tandem low-loaders will move the 105 ton front shield:
http://www.startribune.com/graphics/flash/17/08haul17/
>>>The double-wide trucks will have police escorts front and back. Experienced truck drivers have been chosen for the job.
On the open road, the trucks may go 60 to 65 miles per hour, Tucker said. A safety chain will join the two trailers, but weight is what holds the load in place, Tucker said.
The two drivers work carefully together, with the driver on the left judging the speed and deciding when to turn. The driver on the right is in charge of keeping space between the trucks.
"The guy on the right has complete trust in the fellow on the left," Tucker said.<<<
Comment: This is NOT a job for the T/O with thick glasses, who was carrying a blind person's cane, that was discussed in an earlier post!!
Heading out to Pacific St on my first trip this morning, I found new signals turned on from North of Bay Parkway to 62nd St on 2 Track. If the work being done this weekend on the southbound track is of the same nature, I expect that next weekend, the new signals will be on on 1 Track.
One good point to this: the two really slow timers between 20th Ave and 18th Ave are gone, replaced with two new ones that definitely clear at 15mph (tomorrow I'll push them a little more - they're posted at 25).
Have you worked the Q express any time recently? I wonder if there is any still any kind of slow order or timing in effect northbound between Avenue H and Newkiek.
i was on the Diamond Q yesterday at 445. I rode it from Sheepshead bay to prospect park. That R40 slant was doing anything BUT going slow! the Motorman didn't slow down till around the prospect park station when a Q local went before us. Other than that the R40 was going as fast as the Green signals allowed. By the way it had a Decent Motorman who felt the need to speed. Some Motormen are too cautious. They take the very meaning out of the word express. Expresses are ment to be faster than the locals. Not in this womans case!!!
Don't you mean "Motorwoman"?
Why does it have to be that way? She is after all a man, a woman.
Bummer! I guess we won't be able to view the exercising gals at Ballys waiting for that last red to clear up into 18th.
Most of the women I see at the Bally's in my neighborhood look horrible anyway. Maybe it's different in your case, but I know I wouldn't want to look inside the Bally's nearby for more than 2 seconds.
I go to Chinatown. There the women are beautiful and mystical. Those that wear their hair long cinch it back with dragon clips.
They are still cute even in short, shoulder length do's as well.
I gotta find one soon, because being alone is a real bummer.
I'm like a "blind T/O" when it comes to women, I'm too overcautious and afraid of challanges.
Those two timers south of 18th Av I was doing 17 mph on while working the M. I'm not too keen on taking these timers too fast as they are the type to "bang you in" if you hit it.
The timer signals on the West End are much better than the old ones. Especially at Fort Hamilton Pkwy both ways.
18 mph seems to be the magic number. They cleared at 20, but that was very unenjoyable.
I was on the D train today and it was going to the world trade center via 8th Avenue. This means there was no sixth Avenue access at all until you got to west 4th Street. Doesn't this stinks?
N/W
I was at 47th-50th St. Rockefeller Center today. With only (F)s running (no (S) 6th Ave shuttle today) the 6th Ave subway looked like a ghost town !
Bill "Newkirk"
Ha! Now the 6th knows how the Broadway Line felt!
Good Point.
The Broadway Lines never has been as bad as it was Saturday. No 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue, or Brooklyn access via Dekalb Avenue. It was ridiculous and unnecessary. The D via the local 6th Avenue Tracks to World Trade Center would have been much better. Who knows why these fools ran the D line via 8th Avenue without considering the confusion they will cause on the 6th Avenue route.
N/W
What about the Q local? Doesn't that run to Dekalb from 34th street via bridge on weekends to Dekalb?
You miss my point... The D service is already screwed up enough to make matter worse by running it via 8th Avenue. But since an earlier postee already stated why they couldn't run it via the F train tracks, it makes no since to speak on this topic further.
N/W Bwy Lines
They were placing those yellow rubber tiles and doing other work at the 42nd St/6th Ave express platforms.
"They were placing those yellow rubber tiles and doing other work at the 42nd St/6th Ave express platforms."
More than just installing those tactile strips, the concrete on the platform's edge was saw cut and removed. You probably saw re-bars and a temporary wood form , all this ready for concrete pour.
Imazing that all this can e be done in two days.
Bill "Newkirk"
The F was real crowded in Manhattan when I rode it once in the Afternoon and Once at about 22:30 hrs.
I was on F today from Bay Parkway to 34th... my T/O was REALLY agressive... well... at least until he got to E-BWAY... then it all went downhill... service didn't seem so bad though... except for a 10 minute delay at W4th st.
My thought was they should have rerouted the D via the F local tracks and then run it from the world trade center from there. With no 8th/6th Avenue or Broadway-Brooklyn access, it makes it more confusing.
N/W
But the D can't switch to the F tracks between 47th-50th and 42nd, because of the alignment swap between those two stations. So that would have forced the D to come in on the center track at 42nd St. Even if the train didn't stop, it would cause problems for replacment of the platform areas (besides, if it's anything like the replacement on the A center platform at Penn Station last year, it must really smell awful at 42nd and Sixth this weekend).
"But the D can't switch to the F tracks between 47th-50th and 42nd, because of the alignment swap between those two stations. So that would have forced the D to come in on the center track at 42nd St. Even if the train didn't stop, it would cause problems for replacment of the platform areas (besides, if it's anything like the replacement on the A center platform at Penn Station last year, it must really smell awful at 42nd and Sixth this weekend)."
hmmmm... I never even thought about that, but your absolutely right! There isn't a connection between the D express tracks and the F local track. If I'm not mistaken, aren't the Q express tracks in the middle?
N/W Bwy Lines
As it comes in at 47th-50th the tracks coming to and from Queens are both on the east side of the platform on the uptown and downtown sides, while the tracks going over to Eighth Ave. are on the west side of both platforms. So on the uptown side there's no reason to switch positions between 42nd and 47th-50th because the B/D are in the express (center) position and the F is on the outside (local). But on the downtown tracks, the B/D and the F have to swap in order for the express tracks to be in the middle at 42nd.
"But on the downtown tracks, the B/D and the F have to swap in order for the express tracks to be in the middle at 42nd."
This must have been done to accomodate the "new" extensive at 57th Street? Unless it was built, and configured around the same time.
N/W Broadway Lines
>> This must have been done to accomodate the "new" extensive at 57th Street? <<
I don't think so...at least, it's not what I've read. I think it has more to do with 6th Ave Locals going to Queens, and 6th Ave Expresses going to the West Side & Bronx.
In order to get the 6th Ave local coming in from Queens onto the normal (outer) local downtown track, the Local and Express have to crossover somehow. The IND solved it by constructing a flying junction instead of having a diamond crossover, which would've had trains on both lines waiting for trains from the other to clear the junction.
It was a rather ingenious solution, I think.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Today? Not tonight? The GO is listed as a late night GO, and only for uptown trains.
Maybe something happened at 34th/6th so D trains had to go via 8th ave.
"Maybe something happened at 34th/6th so D trains had to go via 8th ave."
What happened?
N/W
I don't know, but I don't recall seeing a G.O. for the D line.
With the present state of the 6th Ave line, how in the world could they do a GO for uptown D trains only. I mean what with them terminating at 34th Street S/B where would the N/B D trains departing WTC and going up 8th Ave. come from?
Peace,
ANDEE
They'd run light (or, perhaps, allow passengers to stay on -- what a concept!) from 34th to WTC.
I rode a D from Canal Street to 86th Street this evening, local all the way on 8th Avenue and CPW (and I have a picture at each end to prove it). So I guess this GO was on all weekend even though it was only supposed to run nights.
Were southbound trains taking passengers from 34th to WTC or running light? I only rode northbound.
David, part of the confusion over this was the wording of the MTA Website about this job. It had one believe that this job was first scheduled to begin at 11 P.M. on either Sun. Aug. 19th or Mon, Aug. 20th, (depending on one's interpretation), while, in fact, it started on the 17th at 10 P.M., and continued until 5 A.M. on 8-20....
Read it again:
11 PM to 5 AM Sun to Fri [i.e., 11 PM to 5 AM on each of those days]
11 PM Fri to 7 AM Sat
11 PM Sat to 8 AM Sun
Compare to a typical weekend GO:
12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon
The distinction is quite clear.
Anyway, the same GO is posted for this weekend. We'll see if it's actually in effect during the day.
.......but not around the loop track either !!
Boarded a #6 train at Grand Central (south motor #7400). Everything went fine until arrived north of Brooklyn Bridge. We sat there a few minutes while hearing an automated "apology" for the delay. Then we crossed over to the express track. There was a train in Brooklyn Bridge that had some trouble. This happend today around 3:30PM.
Instead of being thrown off the train at BB, the C/R announced that we would be making all local stops to Bowling Green. WOW!, riding an R-142A south of Brooklyn Bridge. On the automated strip map above the art work I noticed something. On the lower left hand corner above (6) Lexington Ave Local a message proclaiming that this train was running a different route and to ignore map, in red letters !
After making all local stops, we then crossed over at Bowling Green and had to leave the train. The R-142As operated light to Brooklyn Bridge where I assume it started it usual local run. I boarded a #5 train at BG and when we passed the layup track south of BB, the disabled train was layed up there to free up the railroad again.
And the disabled train that caused all this............er..just a train of Redbirds !
Bill "Newkirk"
Aside from the stip map, what did the automated messages do -- did they just shut them off, or is their a Bowling Green program option on the R-142s for the 6 (or when the train got to Fulton did the female voice say "Where the heck are we?" and the male voice "I don't know, I've never been here before...")
"Aside from the stip map, what did the automated messages do"
The end signs just said "last stop". All station announcements were by the conductor. All lights on the strip map were out, except for that notation of map not in use.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was down there about that time heading to work at Coney Island.
A Redbird #6 Train (the disabled train?) made it's way into the Yard Tracks south of the Bridge while multiple 6s, 142s and Redbirds went to Bowling Green. If I hear correctly, one southbound #6 got turned at 59th St and was sent into the spur north of the station.
-Stef
"A Redbird #6 Train (the disabled train?) made it's way into the Yard Tracks south of the Bridge while multiple 6s, 142s and Redbirds went to Bowling Green. If I hear correctly, one southbound #6 got turned at 59th St and was sent into the spur north of the station"
Can you imagine if this happened at the height of the rush hour ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I was informed that the three R-110Bs that were cannablized for parts are being put back for service. But all three units cannot run together because of a rule governing the conductors position and its placement in the center of the train.
If this rule is true and the cars are being readied for service again, will the R-110bs run only as two units and the third set be a spare in case one unit has trouble ? Are you reading this, Train Dude sir ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You make a good point about the C/R position. I just figure out the one side would be 414feet and the other 207feet. How did the TA get over running the train in the first place, since is the max a C/R can controll is 300feet per side.
Robert
"You make a good point about the C/R position. I just figure out the one side would be 414feet and the other 207feet. How did the TA get over running the train in the first place, since is the max a C/R can controll is 300feet per side."
I believe there was a special conductors position for the R-110Bs. Weren't there blue/white striped conductors postion boards on the platform that said R-110 on them ? They were on the (A) and (D) in case if they ran there. I remember seeing them on the Brighton Line too.
Bill "Newkirk"
"I believe there was a special conductors position for the R-110Bs. Weren't there blue/white striped conductors postion boards on the platform that said R-110 on them ? They were on the (A) and (D) in case if they ran there. I remember seeing them on the Brighton Line too."
Yup they are there I see them on the A line because I do ride that line from time to time. It be kinda nice to see that train Again. All they have is a 10 car set? I thought there were more but not in service?
They have a nine car set. Three 3-car sets.
Dan
But the rule is that a C/R can't see more then 300feet on ether side. That is why the TA did not make any train BMT train 11 cars long.
Robert
They can link 4+2+3 (not 3+3+3) cars together.
And conductor will be closer to the center.
The NYCT office of System Safety has mandated that the conductor must be AT THE CENTER of the consist. "Closer to the center" does not suffice. This means that you will never see the 9 car R110B in service again, till the TA changes the policy. The policy is the conductor having no more than 300 feet worth of train to his left and to his right. Unless the TA wants to put 2 conductors on the train............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"The policy is the conductor having no more than 300 feet worth of train to his left and to his right. Unless the TA wants to put 2 conductors on the train."
Or to use the train for OPTO testing on the main BMT and IND lines (like the C, G, or W.)
Or put one of the museum's 67-foot Standards in the No. 5 car position and let the C/R use the center door consoles again. Be interesting to see how they would MU it, though :-)
Iron-to-iron only, most likely. The braking systems are not compatible.
They'd need a coupler adapter.
The bizzare looks it would get as it entered any station would almost be worth it :-)
With two conductors on the train, the middle section closing must be a "rock, paper, scissors" affair ...
On Mon Aug 20, 2001 15:48:54, MTrain12@aol.com (Bill from Maspeth) wrote:
>
> The NYCT office of System Safety has mandated that the conductor must be AT THE CENTER of the consist.
> "Closer to the center" does not suffice.
Where did you hear this? If the conductor is AT THE CENTER of the consist, he or she would have to be BETWEEN CARS at all times! How can someone conduct like that? They would have to have REALLY LONG ARMS to work the door controls! Besides, the conductor is never in the center of 6-car G Trains or 8-car C trains. And what about the 9-car #3 Trains and the 11-car #7 trains? I'm sure there will be no problem with the R-110B cars.
- Lyle Goldman
"Center of the Consist" refers to a maximum length train in the B division, 600 feet. On 6 car G trains, 11 car #7 trains and 9 car #3 trains, the conductor has to view no more than 300 feet on either side. To put it another way, System Safety states "the maximum range of vision for the conductor will be 300 feet on either side. On an R110B a conductor operates 6x3. 67x6=402 feet, which is 102 feet more than System Safety allows.
I heard this ruling from a Car Inspector and a Console Dispatcher, and these 2 gentlemen do not know each other.
Question: On R40,40M and 42, isnt the conductor in an operating postion other than the center of the train or is that OK since they only run 8 car trains
Those are 10-car trains.
My admittedly unscientific observations suggest that the CO moves from the back of car 5 to the front of car 6 depending upon which doors they're going to have to open at the next station.
Any actual TA employees please feel free to correct me.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I think subway-buff was referring to the Eastern Division, where these cars are commonly found. Maximum length is indeed 8 cars there.
Yep, I find conductors on Eastern Division lines (especially on the L line) between the 3rd and 4th or between the 5th and 6th cars, NOT EXACTLY THE CENTER!!! What's the deal with that?
Cleanairbus
carlwal@hotmail.com
hybridbus@aol.com
"How are the North bound Trains going to stop at Canal street then ?"
R-40 slants !
Their conductors position isn't in the #1 T/O cab (slanted end) so they use the #2 (blind) end.
Is this the same for the R-40MOD and R-42 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe most of the old 60-foot cars don't have conductors' controls in the end cabs.
- Lyle Goldman
R32 and R38's have MDC's (Master Door Controllers) in each cab.
The R40, R40m and R42's only have them in the #2 cabs.
That would explain why I've seen conductors opening the doors from the #1 cabs on 8-car C trains, but only from the #2 cabs on the J and M trains. Talk about a step backwards for the TA by not having door controls in both cabs on the R40's and 42's.
The R-32s and R-38s didn't have them either, they had to be retrofitted.
The important thing to remember is that in the 5 car (long section), the conductor is viewing 300 feet, which is the maximum length which a conductor can safely view the doors of a given section.
So linkage of 4+2+3 will work on "A" line.
Whenever I've seen the R110B run 6-cars on the C Line. There is the T/O in the front, someone in the middle, and someone in the last car's operating position.
I believe somebody mentioned that they might be assigned to a shuttle but am not sure how true this is. It would certainly make sense and I think it would be a great idea. They would be too long for the Franklin shuttle so it would seem appropriate to put them down on the Rock Park shuttle and have them assigned to Pitkin. They would be able to free up a train set of R44's for A service which is always welcome.
Much to the chagrin of the "purist" lurking about, I suggest mixing the R110Bs. Take each three car set, break it and insert thusly, an R143 trailer type. Your now looking at a 261ft. set. Add it to a five car set of R143s (car of choice) or a four car set of R68As and your looking at 561 ft of passenger packaging.
The R143 option allows for ALL BMT-IND usage. The J,L, and M curves could accommadate this hybred beauty. I'd advertize the R143s as pullmans for the occupation and habitationally challenged.
If this is not possible because of conflicting systems, the Lefferts/Rockaway Park shuttles seem their best salvation.
avid
I was thinking the Franklin Avenue shuttle where all the orphans end up.
But Rockaway makes the most sense.
I might be wrong but when I was on the FS recently, I was surprised that they only made the platforms long enough for 2-75 footers. The R110B wouldn't fit now.
With the N and W trains not essentially following the same routes, it is easy to measure the damage by just looking at the posted schedules on the MTA website.
At AM rush hour, the N, express on 4th Avenue than local via tunnel, takes 28 minutes to get from 36th Street to Canal Street. The W, via bridge, takes just 17 minutes to cover the same route. That's 11 minutes per trip, 22 minutes per day, 110 minutes (nearly two hours) per week.
Both trains are scheduled to take 12 minutes from Canal to 57th, even though the N is local and the W express. That shows the damage of packing 30 trains per hour on a track -- it slows down service. If there bridge were open, there would be, perhaps, 18 trains on the Broadway express rather than 30. They would go faster.
Any subway worth its salt should be able to 30 trains an hour (1 train every 2 minutes) without any slowdown in service. Doesn't the #7 do it?
Difference is, the 7 doesn't share trackage with any other line -- the only switching is between Queenboro Plaza and 33rd St. where the locals and expresses converge/diverge depending on the time of day. The BMT Broadway line has four different services (4 1/2 if you want to count the split Q Brighton local/express) that have to play nice with each other in order to make things work.
And where lines converge the switches protect longer distances. The Southbound A can't pull into Chambers if a C is leaving the station southbound unitl the leaving switch has cleared. They used to let you in. All this kills time but increases safety.
Re: 30 TPH too much.
Dual Contract specification was 40TPH (60/1.5). The BMT ran 30TPH for decades, Plus I doubt that the TA actually achieves 30TPH in any 60-minute period on the current schedules.
On the one hand, trains are about 10% longer than under the BMT, and key-bys are no longer permitted except by a laborious process. On the other hand, modern equipment can accelerate and brake more quickly, and trains are under radio dispatch conditions.
It seems to me that the railroad is not as tightly run as it was.
That is absolutely correct. Any subway worth its salt should easily run 30TPH.
Maybe with cab signals....
At rush hour, dwell time slows down trains. If you had the trains spread between the 6th and 7th Avenue express, and more of them, maybe that would speed things up.
There is much less tolerance of risk these days. The signals are designed to keep trains further apart. This is a result of brakes designed to stop trains less abruptly. I was told that the new electric switch equipment, though more reliable than pneumatic equipment, is also slower, and this slows down trains.
All I know is that travel times are much, much faster off peak, and the gap is greater on lines that are nearer to capacity.
I was told that the new electric switch equipment, though more reliable than pneumatic equipment, is also slower, and this slows down trains.
The difference is around 2 seconds: 4 sec vs. 2 seconds. If the switch is 100 feet long and the train is 600 feet long, then the train will have to travel 700 feet to clear the switch. The travel time to clear the switch would be 93.3 seconds at 5 mph. The difference between 2 or 4 seconds to move the switch is not significant with 120 second headways. Don't believe everything they tell you.
If 40 tph operation is necessary, then speed across a switch will have to be increased. Going up to 7.5 mph will reduce the travel time to 63.5 seconds.
One would assume that your calls for increased productivity as part of your MTA master plan would also extend to capital assets. How does reducing service levels from 30 tph to 18 tph fit into your model for a 2% annual productivity gain?
>> At rush hour, dwell time slows down trains. If you had the trains
>> spread between the 6th and 7th Avenue express, and more of them,
>> maybe that would speed things up.
Very true, I always wondered how F trip times would be affected if K service was still in place. So many people board at Delancey, that it slows down the whole line.
>> There is much less tolerance of risk these days. The signals are
>> designed to keep trains further apart. This is a result of brakes
>> designed to stop trains less abruptly.
There's no more AK either.
That's why I mentioned cab signals, easier to close trains in at restricting speed.
>> ...that travel times are much, much faster off peak
It's almost like I can get home _faster_ at 3am, even with the 30min wait! (almost)
The best sevice overnight has got to be on the "Work Extra" line. Now, if there was only a published timetable.....
Dave
You don't always save that much with the bridge. I had an experience earlier this week when I got off a Manhattan bound N at Deklb for a Q across the platform and after Canal I saw the N I got off of leaving Prince street.
Did you get right on the Q or did you wait? According to Joseph Korman's BMT2001.NT3 layout, I "got off" an N at 14th for a circle Q at simulation "night." We left at the same time, the Q "entered" DeKalb five minutes earlier than the N. There's no R remember, and I checked the number of the N for confirmation. Going the other way, at system "midday," I got off an N at DeKalb for a Q which left a minute later. At 14th St we had a connection to an R. The N I had gotten off was right behind it and waiting for the R to clear. The bridge is faster than the tunnel, but not by much.
According to N and Q schedules the bridge is faster by 5 minutes. But since the signals are so restrictive with regards to spacing on the bridge, all it takes it a scardey cat T/O on/or an R68 and it fouls the bridge up. If there's no trains ahead of the N it can make good time through the tunnel route. And that R40 Slant N T/O that I had was fast, so it was abit unusual to see him just leaving Prince street as our pulled up along side it.
Earlier that day I rode an R68 Q local from Dekalb to Canal and the T/O was a real slowpoke, he waited for signals to clear to green way ahead of him, and he was always jerking the brake making everybody in the train bounce around. He was a "brake happy" T/O. No it wasn't the blind T/O, it was middle aged guy with a moustache.
Also there is frequently track workers on the bridge and trains have to creep at 5mph or less when they are present.
The following appears in the MTA site, strangely, under Bus service advisories:
>>Watch the Staten Island Yankees in their brand new ballpark. The Staten Island Railway has a special baseball train that takes you right to the ballpark gate. It stops at all SIR stations except St. George Terminal, arriving at the ballpark at 6:40 PM on weekdays, 6:35 PM on Saturdays and 4:35 PM on Sundays.
Ten minutes after the game ends, the special baseball train leaves the ballpark, making all SIR stops except St.George Terminal.<<
Maybe I missed this, but is there a new station adjacent to the ballpark? When was it built? How could a new station be built so fast? Where is it in relation to the rest of the SIR line?
It's just over a hill (northwest) from St.George, and could realistically be walked-to from it, which likely explains why the trains don't stop at St.G.
Uhm, no it's not. It's 1500' from the St. George terminal. No hill to climb to get from St. George to the Ballpark.
-Hank
The track from the mailine of the SIR is configured to direct most trains into the St. George Terminal, but there's always been a by-pass track that would allow a St George-bound train to access the old Arlington Branch, along which the stadium (and it's station) is located.
That's how the Ball Park Station is accessed. It could also be accessed on a shuttle run from the Westernmost tracks at the St. George terminal, which, years ago, served the Arlington Branch.
What "By-pass track", it is the track leading to the Wye so they can turn around the cars. This is the ONLY place you can turn a car on Staten Island. A few years ago there was some arguement that the SIR didn't even have rights to run on the wye. They just put in a lead from the wye track to the ball park. The wye track ALWAYS connected to the last two platforms at St. George.
If the Ballpark is within walking distance of St George WHY is SIR running a shuttle train from St George to Ballpark during games?
This isn't a shuttle. It starts at Tottenville and makes all stops except St.George and terminates at the stadium. I presume there is fare control at the stadium.
Fare control consists of (from what I heard) A portable bus farebox that's manned. I don't know if they take change, this would be a problem since TA fareboxes drop the coins below the floor, something that such a box would not have.
"Fare control consists of (from what I heard) A portable bus farebox that's manned. I don't know if they take change, this would be a problem since TA fareboxes drop the coins below the floor, something that such a box would not have."
I saw those manned bus fareboxes at Shea Stadium on the #7 when the US Open is in town to handle the extra crowds. The US Open should be starting up soon, so look for those fareboxes.
Bill "Newkirk"
They take coins, tokens, and Metrocards. THey use two employees and teo fareboxes.
-Hank
They have both. There is a direct special from Tottenville that makes the ballpark its last stop, and they run shuttle trains from St. George to the Ballpark. No fare is collected from shuttle passengers at the ballpark, they paid at St. George; and since there's one track, it's easy to figure out. Anyone boarding the special at the Ballpark also involves a fare.
-Hank
I suspect that the purpose is to attract Staten Islanders who are afraid of the north shore. I walked along the promanade to the ferry terminal (past the parking lot) the other day. It is a nice walk, but to get in the terminal you have to walk down a back alley and up a back stair. Everything is worn out looking during the day, and scary at night.
Or you walk up the bus ramp, and down the street DIRECTLY ACROSS FOR THE 120 PRECIENT!
-Hank
Because a boatload of fans walking from the ferry to the ball park would cause crowd conditions on the local streets? And even worse for the reverse?(a stadium of fans all going for the ferry at the same time).
Question about the fare arrangement: If fares are not collected from shuttle passengers, what keeps people from coming from the rest of SI on a regular train and txfrring to the shuttle? Segregated fare control at St George?
Even more important, how do they enforce the fare heading from the Ball Park? Use the fareboxes there and allow free exit at St George? Or, use the fareboxes there only for people headed South and not for people going to St. George (impossible)?
All passengers are directed to exit the station at St. George, but most passengers riding the shuttle trains are getting off the ferry, so they pay their fare at St. George when they board. Passengers coming from Tompkinsville and east pay at Ballpark when they ride the special.
-Hank
Are any of you from Staten Island or have any of you taken that train to the park? Anyway to clear this all up the station is right under the park. And it was built together with the park but didn't open into a month after the park did. The reason it doesn't stop at the Ferry is that it just a hop, skip, and jump away from the park. It didn't make sense to stop at the ferry dump and change ends to take it one stop to the park. But from what I hear Staten Island might be fixing up the old North Shore Rail line. But of course that won't be for years to come. But would love to see it because I live on the north shore.
I've taken the train to the park. It's easy walking distance from the ferry terminal to the stadium. Not even five minutes. I missed the special that takes you directly to the stadium so we walked. When the game is over the train loads from right underneath the stands. The night we were there it was a doubleheader so we didn't stay until the very end. We walked back to the ferry terminal and boarded a regular train out at 11 PM. It really ddin't strike me as being scary or anything like that. It's a little on the dark side but it didn't matter, we had a great time. Check it out.
I also live in Staten Island. I think Manhattan's more likely to see a Second Avenue Subway than we are to ever get service on the North Shore (Arlington) line. They've been talking about this for years, but despite the fact that most of the line is physically in place (obviously it'd need new track, signals, and some repairs to trestles), there's never the will to just DO it.
If it ever did happen, imagine the traffic relief it could provide- residents of neighborhoods like Graniteville, Bulls Head, Mariners Harbor, and even Travis could be encouraged to park at my hypothetical park and ride near South/Forest Avenues and ride to the Ferry, rather than clog up Victory Blvd, I-278 and the "Terrace" wuth cars and busses.
Folks on the South Shore (like me)would also be indirectly helped, as our ALL MTA (fantasy, again) busses could get throguh easier.
Maybe we could even get rush-hour service on the Travis Branch? It's literally a stone's throw from the UA Multiplex.
None of this will ever happen, unfortunately.
For those of us very unfamiliar with the lay out of Staten Island and the SIRT.
1) how many lines were there on this system at its peak? I've seen reference to the Arlington Branch and now the Travis Branch. Was that it? Was there any others? Does anyone have a map they could post of the old lines?
2) When did these other branches close?
3) What entity built the original SIRT lines and when did the city take it over?
Thanks for you help with this.
Bill/Piggo
There was the main line, the South Beach branch, and the Travis industrial spur. The main line was from Arlington to Tottenville, via St. George. Passenger service was provided between Arlington and St. George; Tottenville and St. George; and South Beach (Wentworth Ave) and St. George. All traffic was removed from the South Beach branch in 1953. There was only one industrial customer, what is now Sun Chemical's pigment facility on Tompkins Ave. Beach patronage had dropped significantly, and the tracks were worth more in scrap value than could ever be recouped in fares.
Passenger traffic was removed from the Arlington section in 1953 as well, because the city Board of Transportation buses undercut the rail fares and were seen as more convienent to the passengers.
Freight service ended east of St. George in 1985, and east of the Arlington area by 1989. Freight service on Staten Island ended completely in 1991, when Proctor and Gamble shut down their factory at Port Ivory. The line at that time was operated by the Delware and Otsego, under the name Staten Island Rail Road. The ROW itself was owned by CSX, formerly the Baltimore and Ohio's Perth Amboy subdivision (a railroad-owned ferry ran from Tottenville to Perth Amboy until the mid 60's)
After CSX petitioned to abandon the line, the city EDC stepped in and purchased it, with the intention of preserving the line for industrial use immediately, and possible passenger service.
The Travis spur saw rare service after the power plant in Travis was converted to burn oil. During the oil crisis of the 70s, the plant was converted again so that it could burn either oil or coal, but the last time a train definately made it down the line was in the mid 70s, when an original SIR MU was placed in the plant yard. This line was recently rehabbed all the way to the power plant.
The line will open in a few years, now that Union county and their township lawsuits have been settled. A connector will be built from the AK Bridge to the Chemical Coast line (on the east side of the NJ Turnpike), and an extension of the Travis spur will serve the VISY paper plant (as was intended when the line was rehabbed) and a new garbage transfer station to be built on the Fresh Kills landfill property. Eventually, there will be daily trains to and from Staten Island. Travis never saw passenger service, and the only protected grade crossing on Staten Island is on this line as well, at South Ave. (There are two other RR Crossings on SI, one on the Travis spur at River Rd, and another on the access track to Howland Hook on Arlington Ave)
-Hank
uhmm... NYSW operated the line for awhile after CSX bailed. I think they stopped running around the mid 80s
Deleware Otsego was the parent corporation at the time. They had a large billboard on the West Shore Expressway.
-Hank
Any place online you could get old maps of the original SIRT?
Read the SIRT section on this site. Among other things, it has a 1949 track map.
You are most likely correct, none of this will happen. I live on the North Shore of Staten Island, and I have seen and ventured on the North Shore ROW in the Port Richmond/Elm Park area.
If you go towards the West on the line, the tracks turn into an open cut trackway much like how the New Dorp station is on the SIR. As you get closer to Port Richmond, the line becomes elevated for a station I quite don't know the name and it is inaccessable because of many trees blocking the trackway. There is also going to be contruction for some development very close to the North Shore line, I don't know how this may affect any reconstruction of this line.
In my own opinion I also think that the 2nd Avenue subway will come before any North Shore SIR Line. The stations are falling apart, there are many homeless people living along the line, and there are too many trees to cut down that are sprouting out of the trackway.
Staten Island has another of unfinished project such as the incomplete expressways that could've helped the borough's congestion. There was also rumors of a Expressway along the shores of the Island. Even though how farfetched bringing back the North Shore Line is, it will really help the Island become less congested.
-Vekter
The station was open opening day at the stadium. The schedule for the special was available at least a week ahead of time, and was left on cars in the parking lot during the game. The 'fixing up' of the North Shore line has already taken place, as far east as South Ave. There are no current plans to do any work at all on the rest of the line, which has been torn up between Ballpark and Jersey St. The ROW is still available to the land side of the greenway.
-Hank
Can somebody fill me in on the track configuration in that area? I know the three western-most tracks from St. George are physically connected into two spurs which, I assume, were the Arlington branch at one point. When I last rode through there about 2 years ago, these two tracks ended at a bumper block a short distance away (I assume the tracks were just long enough to properly wye a train). Which of these tracks now continues westward, and on which side is the platform?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
North side of the platform, but there is space for two tracks. THey actually connected the wye track to the station (the south track when their were two) and cut the north track. Eventually, they expect the tracks to be restored properly, both tracks will go to Ballpark, the south track going to the existing wye track, the north track from tracks 10-11-12 at St. George. (There's a single crossover from the north track to the wye track facing the platform tracks, which enabled them to wye a train uning track ten and switch and swap cars being washed on 11 and 12.)
-Hank
They wash trains on track 10 during off peak hours. Track 11 is currently OOS and is used as a layup for Work 57 and/or Work 58 during the tunnel rehab construction GO. finally track 12 is used to store and/or swap cars.
Anyone know where I can get the "font" of the MTA? Specifically, the white Arial type with the black fill and the white line above?
nappy
Isn't it Aczidens Grotesque (most likely mispelled)
Actually wait for a project in subways next year using that font, I can't say no more.
Arti
The front is Linotype's Helvetica Medium. Arial is similar. There are a number of knockoffs of Helvetica with various names, including Helios and Swiss. I believe the TA has modified a few specific characters.
Well the thing coming is using A...dens Grot...k. Looked cool.
Arti
Akzidenz-Grotesk . . . a.k.a. Standard Medium . . . a.k.a. Gothic 725 Bold.
Another name by another company, but still $25 for a single font. I wish one of those free font dealers (like on AOL's font page) would make up their own copy of it.
An estimated 10,000+ people showed up today to see Thomas the Tank Engine at the Illinois Railway Museum. I was there selling refreshments and doing some minor crowd control, and the place was a mob scene. At 9:30 AM, the line of traffic to get into the parking lot was at least two miles long. Probably the only traffic jam the tiny village of Union has ever seen.
A weather forecast of rain and severe storms had us fearing for the worst, but aside from a light shower in the morning, the day was mostly dry with perfect temperatures. We had a healthy thunderstorm in the evening, but most of the crowd had gone home by that point.
In addition to Thomas, we had a coach train pulled by the Nebraska Zephyr locomotive, a C&NW bi-level commuter train, a three-car train of North Shore interurbans, a three-car train of CTA 4000's, and two or three trolleys on the loop. I couldn't figure out how so much traffic could be on the railroad at the same time, but it seemed to run like clockwork (at least from my vantage point behind a refreshment cart on the platform).
*whew* What a day!!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Congrats on a great day! I've heard that IRM really knows how to effectively dispatch its trackage... sounds like what I've been told is correct. (My only visit to IRM was in the '60s so I don't remember for myself... never managed a visit when I lived in Chicago in the late '70s, unfortunately.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another big advantage IRM has is the sheer amount of trackage they have:
The mainline track extends about 4.5 miles to the east of the depot (to the right on the map), with a siding about halfway out. The track also extends about half a mile to the west of the depot (to the left on the map). The configuration of the main station, as well as the presence of the mile-long trolley loop around the grounds, seems to add greatly to their flexibility.
On a normal weekend, I usually spend most of my time in Barn 4 (home of the electric car shop) or Barn 7 (where a number of CTA cars live). Needless to say, I've been greatly enjoying my time out there. My only regret is that I didn't get involved earlier than I did.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yard 10 is pretty much a dead line. For a while the two MBTA PCCs were stored there.
As a loyal IRM member, and as a staff member on the museum newsletter ("Rail & Wire"), I feel that I must respond to your post... by agreeing with it! Yard 10 is where we put most of the "junk" cars that no one really wants to work on. The MBTA PCC cars are still there, waiting to be scrapped. The parts from those cars will go towards restoring two Chicago cars at IRM: pre-PCC prototype #4001, and pre-war PCC #4021. Everything else in Yard 10 is either a freight car or a passenger car.
BTW, the map is about 2 years out of date. The tracks in Yard 10 were consolidated along the north side of the yard, and Yard 11 now extends west parallel to Yard 10 and along the southern edge of the former Yard 10 trackage. IRM plans to build a four-track, 400' long barn over Yard 11 within the next year to two years. Among other things, this new barn will allow us to put the "spam can" 6000-series elevated cars inside!
IRM plans to build a four-track, 400' long barn over Yard 11 within the next year to two years. Among other things, this new barn will allow us to put the "spam can" 6000-series elevated cars inside!
Hell of a long walk from the Electric Car Shop. We'll need a train just to get to the trains. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
<< IRM plans to build a four-track, 400' long barn over Yard 11 within the next year to two years. Among other things, this new barn will allow us to put the "spam can" 6000-series elevated cars inside!
Hell of a long walk from the Electric Car Shop. We'll need a train just to get to the trains. :-) >>
That's what the streetcars are for .
Frank, one thing I didn't understand: why Barn 11? Was there
some engineering reason why either yard 5 or that other set of 3
tracks (whatever it is called...the endless line of dead steam
engines with the pieces of the turntable next to it) wasn't
enclosed first? 1600 track feet of space will be good news for
the IRM collection, wherever it is, uh, erected.
Excellent question, Jeff. You're right: on balance, we'd rather put a barn over Yard 5 or the other yard trackage you refer to, which is called the "Turntable Leads" because of its original intended purpose. Unfortunately, there IS an engineering reason why we can't do that. Those yards sit in the recently defined flood plain, which emanates from Boot Creek (along the east edge of the property). That means that any barns we build in the flood plain will be much, MUCH more expensive than barns built outside it. Yard 11, being towards Olson Road and about as far from Boot Creek as our property will allow, is outside the flood plain - which means it will be less expensive to build. It's still not a simple proposition: these days, McHenry County is forcing us to put in retention ponds equal to the size of the barns. The price has gone from $100,000 a decade or so ago to a quarter million dollars - and it would be much more if we wanted to build a bigger barn, since any structure over 25,000 square feet MUST have a sprinkler system. Aaaarrrggh!!
Well, a retention pond would be a great excuse to install a donated trestle, eh?
But seriously, is that what's needed to build in a flood plain, putting in a retention pond? Or are there additional requirements as well?
I think that a retention pond is the only major physical obstacle. However, the big problem is all the hoops that you have to jump through to get everything approved. The last barn IRM built, which was finished last year, was being planned as these new regulations took effect. A motor- and trolley-bus barn, it was set in the flood plain and was affected by the new rules. By the time we were done taking care of everything the County wanted - and usually doing it two or three times until they were satisifed - it took FOUR YEARS to build the barn. It's largely because of our experience with the bus barn that IRM is taking steps to build outside the flood plain; while building a retention pond is annoying, four more years outside will make the equipment that much harder to restore.
Geez, and I remember when IRM was in the middle of nowhere and you could pretty much do as you damn well pleased. Now there are all those new residential developments being built almost up to Olson Road! .
Frank, are you the "insider" who will be meeting the Chicago Field Trip crew next weekend? Also, do you know Dave Neubauer from St. Louis?
Being located in a coastal wetlands area, I feel your pain!
News item #1: IRM plans to aquire a couple of Redbirds.
News item #2: IRM will be adding a body of water to its property.
Can anybody else put two and two together here? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wonder if they need a reef?
Please don't show us you swimming Red Bird again, it makes me feel too bad.
Mr t__:^)
Ah, so they will be restoring Blue Goose 4021. Any chance they'll put that second set of center exit doors back in? They were taken out when the car was converted to one-man operation in 1952.
"Ah, so they will be restoring Blue Goose 4021. Any chance they'll put that second set of center exit doors back in?"
Don't get your hopes up. 8-) Actually, the main reason that IRM is scrapping the MBTA cars isn't because we NEED the parts - it's because we just don't want the things around! IRM didn't purchase those cars, they were owned by an individual who stored them at the Museum and then decided he didn't need them and donated them to IRM about a year and a half ago. Since we desperately need the track space, we want to get rid of them. The fact that we have two other cars we MIGHT be able to use the parts for is just an added bonus.
In fact, there are no current plans to begin a complete restoration of #4021. While the car was given a beautiful cosmetic restoration when it was acquired from CTA in the mid-1980's, it is actually in very poor shape. It was stored in Lincoln Carbarn next to huge piles of salt for decades, and the frame is badly rusted out. In addition, the electric and mechanical systems are very deteriorated, and other work - such as replacing that door, and changing out the wheels so that it can run on our track - would have to be done during a full restoration. None of that is planned, since we have other cars that are closer to operation (in fact, another PCC - Kansas City Public Service 755 - is scheduled for a full restoration within the next decade). Sorry; I can say without hesitation that there are many people here who would LOVE to see 4021 run, but it just doesn't seem to be in the cards.
Well, thanks for clearing that up. I must say the paint job on 4021 does look very nice. At least 4391 is up and running. That's another car I would love to ride in someday - with it signed up on either route 22 or 36.
Frank, I gotta correct you on one PCC point. A PCC does not have a frame. A PCC is basically 2 sides, 2 ends and a roof. Weld it together and hang everything off the body. Salt damage to a PCC usually results in rot to equipment cases/covers, stepwells and skirts. Body damage usually results from accident repair improperly or slopply done.
I'm the Editor of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's newsletter The Live Wire, and in 1990 to 1991 our 1944 Pullman air car, 7407 had it's body rebuilt by the local MTA's Bush Street Facility (nee Carroll Park Shops) and we did all the re-wiring on the car and rebuilding/refurbishing of the underbody cases. The MTA also provided all new covers/latches for all the cabinets. It was estimated that over a ton and a half of new metal went into the body.
CTA might be willing to do that for 4021. They fix the body, you do the rest.
Yeah, the stepwells, being thin sheet metal and getting wet
from both sides, are the _first_ things to go. I've seen the
platform knees corrode and start to sag. Also water tends to get
in around the windows and ruin the T posts.
Wow, I guess it was a good thing we came last weekend, this would
have been a bad time to be loading track & signal parts :)
I didn't know Thomas was as big a draw over here. He's huge in England...
I had no idea either. I remember the little "I think I can" children's story, but I had no idea there was this whole franchise with a full cast of characters and a storyline.
In the past couple weekends I was out at IRM, I found it rather amusing when people talked of "when Thomas comes" as if the pope were coming for a visit. Now I see what they were talking about.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thomas is the largest attraction the museum offers. IRM counts on a huge crowd to make up a shortfall due to a slow but steady decline in the number of new members.
What engine had a face on and posed as Thomas ? Nice to see a big turnout.
Simon
Swindon UK
It was a small steam locomotive that is owned by, I presume, whoever owns the liscensing rights for Thomas the Tank Engine. It is shipped in by flatbad truck and kept under wraps when it is not in service. So I assume this is the "real" Thomas rather than another engine posing as Thomas.
I guess there are several other railcar and engine "characters" as part of the franchise, including an evil deisel engine. But no electric rolling stock! Bastards! They could at least have Eddie the "L" Car, Sam the Subway Car or even Tim the TGV. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Strasburg Railroad cosmetically modified a small coal burning steam engine to become Thomas. I heard, but can't verify, that because of its enormous popularity several more will be built.
Strasburg's Thomas
That certainly looks like the one IRM was using, except they had it hooked up to some C&NW and Rock Island coach cars.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> The Strasburg Railroad <<<
What "Strasburg" is that? The background of the picture does not look like France.
Tom
The Strasburg Rail Road that's in Strasburg, Pennsylvania.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's also interesting to not that in the picture the "Board Thomas Here" signs are written in English and that the caption states that rides only costed "a dollar". It doesn't sound like France to me at all. It doesn't even sound like Quebec!
-Robert King
It's not Strasbourg.
Rusty the Redbird or Achilles the Accela spring to mind....
I dont think there is a real Thomas. Never mind:)
The Thomas franchise is owned by Britt Alcroft and she charges a fortune for use. The Talyllyn railway in mid Wales know this only too well and have untill recently been running Peter Sam with the permission of the author, the Rev Awdry. When he sold the rights this permission was withdrawn by Britt Alcroft, the case goes on....
As you rightly say Thomas is big business here
Simon
Swindon UK
I've got to get out there someday when the 4000s are running. Not to mention Green Hornet 4391. Unfortunately, I can't make it out there Labor Day weekend.
I remember seeing the 4000s on the Evanston Express, but am too young to remember when 4391 and her brood plied routes 8, 20, 22, 36, 42, and 49 plus any other routes with PCCs.
<< I've got to get out there someday when the 4000s are running. >>
Electric cars run weekends through Oct. 28, weekdays until Labor Day.
Thanks. Maybe I should have added, "when I'm in the Chicago area".:-)
The Chicago Ls are, in terms of their historic significance, vastly superior to their New York counterparts. Having extensively ridden both systems, and written books on each, I have concluded that the Chicago system is a greater representative of that city's legacy than those in New York. Save for the Brooklyn Broadway El, every elevated line in New York was conceived of and built as an extension of a pre-existing subway line and all of them, with the exception of the aforementioned Broadway El, were built after the close of the Nineteenth Century. In Chicago each line (save for the modern extensions such as the Orange Midway line)was conceived and built in the Victorian Era. The South Side (built in 1892), the Lake Street (1893), the Douglas (1895), the Loop (1897), and the Northwestern lines(1900) came into being before the rise of the subway. They were built during a time when the elevated railroad was the undisputed last word in public transportation. The last point to point El in New York was the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue line which closed in 1973. In Chicago several elevated lines, most notably the Green and the Brown lines terminate at each point as they were conceived, either above ground or at grade. The elevated lines are a vital cog in the workings of downtown Chicago. The last New York El which went "downtown" was Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue line which closed in 1969 (a case can be made however for the Broadway El which goes through "downtown" Willamsburg). A native New Yorker, I am partial to the Broadway El precisely because it is so old but I am also cognizant of the fact the local media has it right when it refers to the New York Els as "elevated" subway lines. A true El stands on its own and is not an extension of anything. That is why the Chicago system is superior.
Eric Dale Smith
Save for the Brooklyn Broadway El, every elevated line in New York was conceived of and built as an extension of a pre-existing subway line and all of them, with the exception of the aforementioned Broadway El, were built after the close of the Nineteenth Century.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. I assume you mean "survivng els". Still, the West End and Culver els were built as replacements for existing surface lines that were part of the elevated systems, not as extensions to pre-existing subways. Ditto the Brighton insofar as you might consider it an "el." Compare to the Lake Street L in Chicago, which was a surface line in my memory.
The Canarsie line east of Bway Jct and the Lutheran (outer Myrtle) Lines, ditto.
The Brighton Line has portions essentially unchanged since 1878, which trumps the earliest Chicago line, I believe.
I enjoy the Chicago system a great deal, and they still have their core downtown elevated system, which is wonderful, but the overall system is hardly in pristine historical condition.
Note to David Harrison and other Chicago fans: I'm not dumping on Chi in any way--I love the system--but a broad statement invites analysis.
To Paul, your comments and rationale are "duly noted and accepted."
Speaking of history of the Chicago "L", the distinctive boulevard steel work over Roosevelt Road on the Douglas Blue Line was taken down and replaced with four spans of steel salvaged from the never used Dorchester extension of the Green Line over east 63rd Street.
Still no word on the disposition of the Garfield Blvd station when the new station opens.
David Harrison
I beg to differ. The Chicago system continued to build 'elevated' ROW at a time when New York had already figured out subways were superior. Concurrently with the 'Dual Contracts' Chicago was raising the ex CMSTP&P Evanston branch to become the Howard Street line. It would take thirty years and FDR WPA money injections to get the State St Subway built.
As to current service patterns versus as built, Only the Ravenswood (Brown Line) has not changed terminal location since opening. The Jackson Park branch (Green Line) no longer goes to Stony Island, the Douglas used to go further, the Lake went down a ramp to street level at Laramie and ran off trolley wire, the Englewood line has been tweaked several times, and of course the Congress line was built in the fifties to replace an L.
Both cities have been starved for 'serious' money to build better and more comprehensive systemsCTA's dreambooks are every bit as wonderful as the IND Second System.
The Jackson Park "L" originally went into Jackson Park, on the grounds of the World Columbian Exposition in 1893. After the fair closed, the line was cut back to Stony Island Avenue.
Yes, we New Yawkuz know how Chicago tried to keep people happy by telling them they were going to "Stony Island Avenue," a thinly veiled attempt to make them think they were really going to CONEY Island Avenue.:
Devilish Clever those ChiTown people, changing a few letters in the hope of avoiding trademark litigation...
You have a book out on Chicago's Elevated? I already have a copy of your first book on the New York Elevated. Where can I get acopy of your Chicago Elevated book?
Let me clarify that. The Chicago book is in the hands of my publisher and I'm awaiting his decision on it. If it's favorable, it will be out by next summer.
Eric D. Smith
What about the NY book? I'd like to read it. How can I get it?
Look up a "A Tale of Ten Cities" by Eric Dale Smith on either www.barnsnoble.com or www.amazon.com. Amazon offers the book at 20% off though it may take you longer to get it.
Eric Dale Smith
Thanks.
I ordered it from Barnes & Noble.com. Looking forward to reading it.
I just bought the $55 CERA book that goes up to 1931, though a few captions indicate it was at least updated in 1995. Will your book be any different ?
My book will primarily be a social history of the L including some fictionalized accounts of what life must have been (and is like) around the L. My first book on the New York Els didn't have any illustrations but this time I made a point of including photographs I took of the South Side, the Lake Street, the Douglas, the Loop, and the the Northwestern lines in my submission package. I also threw in photographs of the Paulina Street Connection for good measure. Whether or not my publisher, AmErica House, goes for this it's too early to tell but if it does go into print I'm going to insist that it be heavily illustrated.
Eric Dale Smith
Historically, the Chicago El may well be more significant in some respects - but functionally, New York's system of subways became vastly superior in function. This is not to say that elevated lines were not pulled down prematurely - they were.
Your facts are very much in error.
The Broadway (Brooklyn) El is but ONE of MANY Els that were built before the turn of the century, and NOT as an extension of any subway.
Examples:
Second Avenue El
Third Avenue El
Sixth Avenue El
Ninth Avenue El
The Ninth Avenue El was the first elevated line in the world, dating to 1867, over 20 years before Chicago's Lake Street or South Side El's.
In Brooklyn:
Fulton Street El
Fifth Avenue El
Third Avenue El
Some of these El's traversed the longest suspension bridges of it's day. The El's carried a combined passenger load many times that of Chicago's, and furthermore, the unique construction of each El, with at grade junctions, elevated center tracks, stringers, ironwork and columns different from other El's, showed an attention to detail on such a scale as to never be rivaled by any other elevated system in the world, including Chicago, with the same two track standard column and stringer construction.
Chicago's original El's, while extensive, were drab, lifeless and carbon-copy, save for the sections that cross the Chicago river.
BTW, all of New York and Brooklyn's El's were built in the 19th Century.
While I agree that a 'true El' is not an extension of the subway, New York's many original El's survive in some form to this day, even if being used as an extension to the subway.
Examples:
Broadway Brooklyn El (J/M/Z)
Myrtle Avenue El (M)
Franklin Shuttle (S)
You were making a comparison akin to the New York Yankees and the cellar dweller Milwaukee Brewers.
I said that the Broadway El was the ONLY New York El still in existence which dates back to the Nineteenth Century whereas all (with the exception of the Northwestern line which opened in May 1900) of Chicago's original elevateds go back that far. That said, whereas the Broadway El was not part of any subway extension (since none existed when it was built in 1888), it is tied into the system now and as such serves as an extension of it. Where it otherwise, it would have been torn down years ago. In Chicago the subways serve as extensions of the L and not the other way around. That's why they are more significant than the ones in New York for they are still the KEY component of that city's mass transit network.
Eric Dale Smith
Incorrect, the Franklin Line in Brooklyn dates to the 19th Century, and is still in operation.
The original El in Brooklyn (Broadway) serves as an extension into a subway. The El was extended over the Williamsburg Bridge in 1908, and into a subway terminating at Essex/Delancey in that same year. In 1913, it was extended to Chambers and Centre Street, under the Municipal Building.
On the other end of the El, in Jamaica Queens, the El becomes a subway, for two stops. This extension of a El into a Subway was completed in 1988.
Now, you have an original El, with no conenctions to the subway (since none existed in the 1880's), extended into NEW subway, built as an extension of an original, unimproved El.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinions, no matter how short sighted they are.
However, the last un-rebuilt el in New York was the Myrtle Avenue El below Broadway (Brooklyn) to the line's southern end. It was incapable of operating steel cars and ran with the Q's (last wooden cars in revenue service) until abandonment.
Chicago's L's were either converted steam or early electric, and the Loop (originally the Union Loop) dates from 1908.
New York eliminated the Manhattan El network, while Chicago kept it's downtown L's.
Check your facts or more to the point, check out the structure itself. Don't spit out facts you get from God knows where without going to the scene and checking it out in person. In addition, the New York Public Library has a map room just off the Forty Second Street entrance with transit maps from the Nineteenth Century and if as you say the Franklin line did exist, I can assure you THAT IT WAS NOT IN THE FORM OF WHAT WE NOW CONSIDER AN EL. I wish neither to embarass or demean you but don't CALL ME OUT on this for I will run rings around you and blow you right off this Board.
Eric Dale Smith
Sir, may I ask you to relax your tone? Whenever a thread begins with invidious comparisons, it is likely to cause sparks which do NOT contribute to our common hobby.
As someone who experienced the L from an early age, and then the Subway as a twentysomething, both are dear to me. Each has its own detail characteristics--for that matter the old structure on Lake Street was somewhat different from that of the South Side (Jackson ZPark, Englewood Normal Park line).
BOTH cities wanted to build more tunnels and upgrade to subway standards--the money wasn't available for all but the barest minimum construction. Chicago's brilliant maneuver putting the ROW in the middle of a Federally funded highway was a breakthrough in transit funding. Daley I managed to get the Congress line built and the ROW roughed in for both the Ryan and the O'Hare extension of the Logan Square route years before the money became availble for the actual trackage. As such Daley did far better than New York in funding new mileage.
That said, the sadness remains when one looks at earlier maps of CRT at its greatest extent.
BTW CTA had several different plans to replace the LOOP--see if you dig up the paperwork in their archives.
Mr. Smith has already apologized several times to me. Thank you for your concern
>>> all (with the exception of the Northwestern line which opened in May 1900) of Chicago's original elevateds go back that far. <<<
1900 was the last year of the 19th century, so the Northwestern line is not an exception.
Tom
In Chicago the subways serve as extensions of the L and not the other way around.
How do you justify that?
The Broadway El was built as an el, and then it was "tied into the system" And became an extension of the subway.
HOW is the Nassau Street line any different from the State or Dearborn Street subways? If one is an extension, then how can the other be a replacement?
Very simple. In New York it was determined that subways would be built "downtown" and would go above ground in outlying areas that were sparsley populated. This was done as much to hold down costs as to avoid the protests of downtown merchants who viewed the Els as a drain on property values. This practice was initiated by the Contract One subway of 1904 whose two northern terminus' are above ground. EVERY city with a subway has followed that pattern since; the downtowns or central business districts would be served by subways and the outlying areas served by Els or their modern incarnation, Metros. This is true of Baltimore, Boston, Philadephia, San Francisco, Washington DC; the list goes on and on,
The Brooklyn Broadway El was built in 1888, a full sixteen years before the opening of the first subway in New York. In 1908, five years after the opening of the Williamsburg Bridge, it entered Manhattan as a subway via your previously mentioned Nassau Street subway. That's as far as it got until the BRT was allowed to penetrate Manhattan during the Teens at which time it was tied into the large network of subways then taking shape as a result of the Dual Contracts and rebuilt east of Broadway Junction to accomodate the heavier all steel subway cars that became its lot. This tying in to the larger subway network is the only reason it is still here. Unlike the other Els built before and around the same time, it became an extension of the larger rapid transit network rather than an independent entity which was the case of all the other Els. They (the older Els) were never referred to as a subway whereas the Broadway El has been. In Chicago, there is no such blurring of terms; an L is an L and as such ALL of its subways were built to complement them rather than the other way around. Remember, with the exception of a few unprofitable branches, NO MAJOR ELEVATED LINE IN CHICAGO HAS EVER BEEN TORN DOWN SAVE FOR THE GARFIELD L and it was rerouted onto the medium of the Congress (now Eisenhower) Expressway in 1958. The Ls are Chicago yet the same can no longer be said of any elevated lines in New York. Manhattan's Third Avenue El and Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue line were the last elevateds to serve either borough's central business district and as such they were the last (along with the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue El) to be seen as being distinct in terms of both operations and perception, from the rest of the system.
Eric Dale Smith
>>EVERY city with a subway has followed that pattern
since; the downtowns or central business districts
would be served by subways and the outlying areas
served by Els or their modern incarnation,<<
Except, of course the IND which was TOTALLY subway other than the Smith St viaduct--no windshield wipers on original cars.
Chicago's original El's, while extensive, were drab, lifeless and carbon-copy, save for the sections that cross the Chicago river.
Maybe, but looking out the train window and seeing Chicago is a much better experience than looking out the train window and seeing New York. :-)
You were making a comparison akin to the New York Yankees and the cellar dweller Milwaukee Brewers.
Ouch... Sure you don't mean the Chicago Cubs?
-- David
Chicago, IL
If you looked out on the Third Avenue El in the 1930's, and seen the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building and the Queensboro Bridge within the range of a mile, it would put even today's Chicago El scene to shame.
You can't even spell El, anyway, it's not "L".
:)
So why else would New York put its trains underground? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
New York at the time grew tired of having El's block light, and it became an eye-sore.
I think all you guys are forgetting that the Bway El was rebuilt girder-by-girder in the teens to resemble a dual contract El, so it is hardly the same El. The portion down Fulton Street/Crescent Street is however.
Does CTA use the same 3rd rail "shoe" as either the BRT or Manhattan Els ?
Not exaclty. The webbed columns west of East New York are original as are the stringers supporting the local tracks. You can see this by checking out the remnants of the old Myrtle Avenue El which stretches a block south of Broadway. That line was built the same year as the Broadway El (1888) and if you look at those stringers you will see that they are identical to their Broadway counterpart. The Broadway El was rebuilt by replacing the old crossbeams with the newer thicker variety characteristic of the Dual Contract Els thereby lowering the clearance beneath the tracks. In addition, station platforms were relocated from between the local tracks to the opposite sides of them and new station houses were built underneath. Around the East New York station the El was rebuilt from the ground up although east of that point the El is as it was when it was extended out over Fulton Street in 1893-94. Interestingly enough, although the stations and staircases have retained their original configuration, the station houses themselves were rebuilt in the 1970s and the platforms lengthened (probably during the Dual Contracts) to accomodate longer trains (post stream driven trains I suppose).
Eric Dale Smith
That's incorrect. When the Broadway el was constructed, it was a two track line with supporting columns located in the street, with a trolley car line in it's median. These columns were webbed. They had a "Y" shaped support, directly below each of the two tracks.
When reconstructed in 1915, in accordance with the Dual Contracts, the structure was widened to allow for a three track configuration, and the columns of the wider structure were placed curbside. The new colums were webbed, but they were not original to the 1888 original construction.
If you look at some of the late Mr. Urquhart's photographs that he took for the BRT, you can clearly see the structure being changed.
"The webbed columns west of East New York are original as are the stringers supporting the local tracks"
Wrong. You are also incorrect when you state the stringers are original to the El's first construction. In the Myrtle Avenue station area, NEW stringers were placed on the outside of the structure to allow center high level platforms to be constructed.
I beg your pardon. In Chicago an elevated railroad is referred to as an L, not El. Ask anybody who lives there and they'l tell you the same thing. I'm a native New Yorker but I have sense enough to realize that we neither have a monopoly on the truth or represent the best of everything. That said, nothing tops the New York skyline as far as I'm concerned but the view in Chicago was and is just as breathtaking as anything in the Big Apple.
Eric Dale Smith
Too bad that if the Flushing Line is extended over to the Javits Center, the city couldn't take over the High :Line and run the No. 7 train south to at least 14th St. Then there would be a little bit of a skyline comparison to work with, especially where the line is going east paralell to 30th Street between 10th and 11th avenues. (were it not for the 20,000 to 30,000 NIMBYs who would file suit...)
We know you refer to an elevated line as an "L" and not an "el", that was my point.
You certainly don't represent the best of everything, including elevated railways.
If you are foolhardy enough to believe that Chicago's skyscrapers can compare with the Art Deco landmarks of Midtown, then you have been exposed to one too many Chicago windstorms.
Sir, while I take issue with Eric on the elevated's comparison, the architectural contest is a entire other game. May I solicit your attention to "Chicago's Famous Buildings" a University of Chicago Press book? The buildings are stunning. As a previous resident of both Manhattan and Chicago, IMO Chicago wins with one hand tied.
OTOH as far as transit, nothing there comes close to the complex ellegance of the IND mainlinnes at West 4th.
I think New York, and this is an opinion, has many more wonderful examples of Art Deco work. Two structures that stand out to me are the Chrysler and Empire State Buildings. I am not sure how many Art Deco examples in Chicago have received landmark status, but I certain it wouldn't come close to Chicago's.
If you want IND Art Deco examples, check the viaduct structure in Brooklyn and the entrance to 190th Street / Overlook Terrace.
I'm good enough. Besides, I have sense enough to back up my facts with first hand observations. Anybody can quote facts but learning about the Els takes a whole lot more than riding in the front of a train. As to the Art Deco skyscrapers, if you think that New York has a monopoly on those things, then it's obvious that you haven't been to too many places. Get out more, see the country, and don't tell me what Chicago doesn't have unless you've taken the time to go there. Remember, Manhattan is an island and from what I'm seeing with your posts, you've got as much sense as Gilligan on an "off" day. I don't like to brag because there are a whole lot of people who post here who know more about transit than I do but frankly you're not one of them. There is an old saying that the smart fools keeps their mouths shut and leave everyone guessing as to whether or not they are fools. It is only the dumb ones who open their mouths and remove all doubt. You've opened your mouth and confirmed the obvious.
P.S. To Dave, the Webmaster: My apologies for engaging in this war of words. I should have had more sense and left this idiot alone. From here on out I will pay "Gilligan" here all the attention he deserves, NOTHING.
Eric Dale Smith
My facts come from many sources, such as the ERA, NYPL, BPL and the NYHS. I have also been to 45 states in this Union, four continents including your home state, and your 'city'. I have observed your El's and Subway, I have used them as well. I lived seven other cities besides New York.
I never said we have a monopoly on Art Deco skyscrapers, but we DO have the best EXAMPLES of them.
You can resort to name calling all you want, it just confirms to me that not only are you unable to deal in a normal, spirited conversation, but when you are confronted with errors that you made, you become enraged. It's easy to brag when there is nothing to brag of.
It seems that you are the one who are incorrect on the facts, especially as far as your knowledge of the Broadway Brooklyn line goes, with you stating that the stringers along the west part (from ENY) of the line are original to the 1888 construction. With what you know about that line and a token will get you onto the subway.
Don't take my word for it, go down there and check it out for yourself. The stringers for all of the Dual Contract Els were of the same specifications. Compared to their 1888 counterparts they were wider and thicker. As such the express stringers on the Broadway El are identical to those found on the Flushing, West End, Culver, and all of the Bronx Els whereas the local stringers are the same as those found on the defunct Myrtle, Fifth, and Third Avenue lines in Brooklyn. Furthermore, if you look at photographs of the Broadway El west of Myrtle Avenue prior to the reconstruction you will realize that the line was not widened because those very same photographs will show the existence of a third track which was used for layovers. The original 1888 stringers for these layovers still exist and were left in place when the newer express stringers were put in in 1915-16.
As for the name calling, I didn't start that, YOU DID! Now whereas I regret calling you Gilligan such regret only goes so far. You need to get off your Nooo Yawk high horse and show the sense that visiting all those places you CLAIM to have visited entails. You and Salaam must be identical twins because you two are among the VERY few people on this Board who cannot criticize somebody without making it personal. In other words, GROW UP! I learned a long time ago that only an idiot in fools clothing relies soley on other peoples facts in making up his mind. There are seventy seven miles of elevated track in New York and between 1999 and 2000 I walked beneath thirty of them. If my facts are as wrong as you say they are, prove it. Get off your behind and hit the streets. You might discover, as I did, that there are a few things you thought you knew but didn't.
Eric Dale Smith
You stated in a prior post that all the stringers west of ENY on the Broadway el were original 1888 construction. That cannot be true, I have photographs of the line at Myrtle Avenue that show NEW stringer construction that was placed on the North end of Broadway, for the soon-to-become New York bound local track.
I have gone past that El many times, I will take a close look at the stringers of all three tracks WEST and EAST of Myrtle. I am certain that the stringers are of differing height.
Give me your fax number and I will fax you the photographs that shows that you are in error.
The fax number has been sent via personal e-mail. That said, I stand by my original claim for it makes no sense for those reconstructing the Broadway El to have replaced local stringers with new ones of the exact same specifications of those used in 1888. If so, why were the express stringers made to Dual Contract specifications and why was the entire El just East of New York rebuilt from the ground up in accordance with those design patterns used by the Dual Contract elevateds? If you don't have it, pick up a copy of "By the El: Third Avenue and its El at Mid-century". There are a couple of photographs showing that its express track stringers were built to the same specifications as those being employed during the Dual Contract era when the former was installed in the mid teens.
Now east of Myrtle Avenue, where the support columns are of solid I-beam construction, the Broadway El did have columns located in the center of the street. These columns were of the same design as the Third Avenue El in Manhattan, the Lexington Avenue El in Brooklyn, and the South Side L in Chicago. During reconstruction they were uprooted and newer columns placed on the side of the street. In addition, did you know that there was once a Park Avenue station on the Broadway El? It was located between Flushing and Myrtle Avenues and was eliminated during the 1915-16 reconstruction.
Look, before I wrote a book on the subject I thought the same way you did but several trips to the Transit Archives, the New York City Public Library and countless walks beneath the El convinced me that twenty plus years worth of opinions were wrong.
That said, the Broadway El is the only El that competes or surpasses the Ls in Chicago for it is the only one that remains from the Nineteenth Century. Check out the stringers on the Fulton Street segment of the line. You will find that they are very similar in terms of width and thickness as those on the Broadway section. That said, it makes absolutely no sense for those rebuilding the Broadway El in 1915 to have recreated rivet by rivet those stringers made back in 1888 when those newer ones currently being employed could do just as good, or better a job. Mayby they did but from where I sit it stretches the imagination for it would have been a colossal waste of money, manpower, and resources.
Eric Dale Smith
Let me add that just west (less than a block)of Myrtle Avenue, all of the stringers were of the Dual Contract variety. At the Myrtle Avenue junction the entire line was rebuilt from the ground up although this ground to air reconstruction did not extend as far out from the junction as it did in ENY.
Eric Dale Smith
THANK YOU. That was the point I was trying to make ALL ALONG. Not ALL of the stringers west of EAST NEW YORK were original, vintage 1888 construction.
Okay, so you concede that many stringers west of Myrtle Avenue are of the 1888 vintage? That is clearly evident in the photographs you just faxed me from the book the "Brooklyn Elevated" (one of my primary sources for my book "A Tale of Ten Cities"). On page 93 you point out the new stringer construction at the Myrtle Avenue Junction. Before the 1915-16 reconstruction the Broadway El's station platform was located between the local tracks. During reconstruction, the Myrtle Avenue station was converted into an express stop serving both the Broadway El and trains operating on the newly constructed Myrtle Avenue El extension just north of Broadway. To facilitate this conversion, the center platform was demolished and replaced by a new express track that ran down the center of the line. Two new plaforms were then built over the existing local tracks, necessitating the construction of new stringers at that location to accommodate the newly relocated local tracks. In the photograph (right next to your arrow) the new local stringers merge with the older preexisiting ones. A visual inspection of the Broadway El at this point will reveal a larger than usual gap between the express and local tracks from the end of the platforms until that point where the new stringers merge with the old.
Page 93 can be explained as follows. The Broadway El's columns were of two types of design; the webbed curved variety (i.e. Manhattan Third Avenue El) which rested near the center of the street and the stright webbed design which rested at curbside. Just west of Marcy Avenue, along the spur which went to the old Broadway Ferry until 1940, the columns were in the center of the street as seen in this picture (why it was like that at that location I do not know). That said, the Broadway El west of Lexington Avenue to Gates was originally a part of the Lexington Avenue El built in 1885. Remember that Gates and Broadway was that line's original terminus and when the El was extended eastward in the 1890s, it was done so in the name of the Lexington Avenue rather than the Broadway El. The columns in the center of the street were a hallmark of the Lexington Avenue, rather than the Broadway line, and as such when reconstruction took place, the El was brought up under specifications as prescribed by the Broadway versus Lexington Avenue line. That is why the reconstruction east of Myrtle Avenue was more extensive the closer you got to ENY.
That said I still maintain that those columns closest to the camera were original. The columns located near the center street were of course relocated to the curb and I guarantee that it is at this point where the solid I-beam columns near ENY were put in place. I say this because I again maintain that I cannot see the logic in those reconstructing the Broadway El recreating Nineteenth Century columns to facilitate Twentieth Century reconstruction.
Eric Dale Smith
I understand everything you explained to me, I was trying to show you that not all the stringers west of ENY were of 1888 vintage, as you stated in your prior posts.
The stringers in the Myrtle Avenue area are from Dual Contracts time, so they are not original 1888 stringers.
NO. I said that many of the stringers west of ENY WERE of 1888 vintage, but not ALL. For the fifth time, you stated that all the stringers west of ENY were of 1888 vintage. I said that is incorrect. I faxed you the photograph thats shows stringers being installed at Myrtle/Broadway in 1915. These are new stringers (1915). They are not of 1888 vintage. Period.
I knew this to be in error because I remember that book and The Tracks of New York by Alan Paul Kahn, 1974.
Possible logic for using the same columns was to maintain a uniform look, not so unheard of in the 1910's.
You, sir, obviously don't have a clue. As somebody else alluded to, maybe you should get off your little island one of these days.
It's one thing to say you personally prefer New York's skyline to Chicago, since we're talking about artistic issues which are inherently subjective. But to say that anybody who prefers Chicago's skyline is foolhardly only belies your ignorance.
Chicago was the only city in the US to go out and develop its own styles of architecture, with pioneers such as Sullivan, Wright, and Mies leading the way. Every major city in the world now has buildings that owe their architectural inspiration to the first or second Chicago School. Almost every building on the Chicago skyline has made some contribution, large or small, to the advancement of modern architecture. Almost every city block in the Loop has at least one designated landmark building, and average Chicagoans are bound to ask you what your favorite skyscraper is as soon as you tell them you're visiting from elsewhere. It's part of the culture here.
New York architects, for the most part, merely copied whatever was fashionable in Europe and Chicago at the time. NYC ended up with a few excellent buildings, but also a lot of anonymous duds that still fill Mahattan's street grid. So you like Art Deco? New York merely imported it from the Ecole de Beaux Arts in Paris and re-hashed it to fit large commercial buildings. The Empire State Building and Chrysler Building are excellent buildings, but can you even name their respective architects? Or what else those architects produced that had any lasting quality, other than looking good on a postcard? And even so, there are plenty of fine examples of Art Deco in places other than New York. Try Union Terminal in Cincinnati, the Chicago Board of Trade Building, or Miami Beach. And before you even mention the Flatiron Building or the Seagram Building as fine examples of New York architecture, both of those were designed by Chicago architects.
And let's not get started about each city's residential neighborhoods outside of downtown. The outer neighborhoods -- no offense to any other SubTalkers who live there -- look like shanty-towns compared to the tree-lined streets, ornate apartment buildings, and tidy brick houses of Chicago's neighborhoods. And unlike New York, we don't pile our trash out on the sidewalks (Chicago was smart enough to incorporate alleys into the street grid, keeping our city from smelling like an open sewer) and regular people can actually afford to live here.
Don't get me wrong: I love New York, I have several good friends who live there, and I ejoy visiting whenever I can. But I don't go there for the architectural walking tours, nor to admire the side streets of Queens. (New York doesn't even offer architectural walking tours? Oops!) Attitudes like yours are the reason the rest of the country has such a negative stereotype of NYC.
You should really get out more. The world doesn't end at the Hudson River.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It is an opinion, Mr. Cole.
I can say that people ARE foolhardy if they believe that Chicago's skyline is superior to New York's. Don't get so hot headed because I State what I believe. You can talk until the Chicago 'River' freezes over, it doesn't change my view of things. I'm not asking you to change YOUR views, but when name calling comes into play, it is a sure sign of a total and complete inability to have discussion.
Did Chicago have the first skyscraper? Was it first in numerous, pioneering innovations in structure? I never stated that Art Deco was unique to New York City, where do you get these ideas from?
The Empire State Building was by architects Shreve, Lamb, and Harmon. Do you know why it was named the Empire State Building? Next to the Eiffel Tower in Paris, the Empire State Building is the world's most famous urban icon. What does Chicago have? The Sun-Times building and Ann Landers? The Empire State Building received the prestigious 1991-92 BOMA International Building of the Year, Historic Building Category.
The Building was nominated for a 1995-96 Civil Engineering Wonder of the World Award as well as BOMA/New York 1995-96 Operating Office Building of the Year Award, 500,000 sq. ft. category Class "A".
The Empire State Building was also honored as one of The Top Ten Construction Achievements of the 20th Century, receiving the fourth place award from CONEXPO in 1999, joining the Chunnel Tunnel, Golden Gate Bridge, and the Dwight D. Eisenhower System of Interstate Highways, the top three honorees. Again, I see no mention of Chicago here.
The Empire State still attracts more than 2 million visitors a year. Can the ugly and lifeless Sears Tower compare? The American Society of Civil Engineers chose it as one of the seven greatest engineering achievements in the history of the country in 1955. The others are the Colorado River Aqueduct, the Grand Coulee Dam, the Hoover Dam, the Panama Canal, the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge and the sewerage disposal system of Chicago.
The sewage system of Chicago won an award. Fitting, to be awarded for a sewage system, and not for it's structures.
The building's owners commissioned a series of murals for the Empire's lobby in 1963 that depict the seven traditional Wonders of the World and the Empire State Building, the eighth wonder. Where in Chicago are any of the World's Wonders? The sewage system?
The Chrysler Building was designed by William Van Alen in the 1920's. Chrysler Building is easily the world's most identifiable skyscraper. An automobile company based in Michigan even had to have a building here. An Art Deco masterpiece.
I won't even belittle you about Chicago's neighborhoods, while most outlying areas such as Elgin are comfortable, areas in the South Side in the 90s would make any one think twice about taking a walk after dark.
New York doesn't offer ONE walking tour, but NUMEROUS walking tours. Everything from the original Brownstones to the landmark apartment buildings that dot the Greatest City in the World. Come out of that back yard alley with your trash and find out one day. You will soon discover what millions upon millions of other tourists have found out. We have set records for tourism, this can be found on the City of New York web site. What tourism records has Chicago set?
However, I respect your opinions, and wish you good luck in the future.
"areas in the South Side in the 90s would make anyone think twice about taking a walk after dark"
Make that the 90s, 80s, 70s, etc. Basically anywhere from about 35th on the north, Damen on the west, 95th on the south, and the lake on the east would make anyone think twice about taking a walk during the DAY, let alone the night. Add about 90% of the West Side to that as well.
There was an article in the Chicago Tribune last week (I forgot which day but it was on the front page) about teens traveling to the West Side from the suburbs to buy Heroin. Anyway, to get to my point, the Trib interviewed the Commander from the Harrison police district and he said "these kids are going into areas that I would not feel safe in with my gun". That's right, a CPD commander actually said that. I was just shocked and at the same time sad for the condition that Chicago is in.
Again, a CPD COMMANDER is afraid to go into outlying neighborhoods in Chicago WITH HIS GUN. In my opinion that shows how bad Chicago's outlying neighborhoods are.
I would like Mr. Cole to review your comments. Chiacgo's crime rate must surely be higher than New York's. Anyone have the FBI stats?
I went though there taking pictures for my new book on the Chicago Ls last August and January and will be going back in September. Yeah it's a crap shoot but that's the only way to really figure the Ls out.
Eric Dale Smith
Just minutes after I made my original post on this topic, I turn on the 4pm news and learn that a Chicago Police Officer was shot and killed on duty last night at the corner of 63rd & Aberdeen, right in the middle of the large chunk of the South Side that I stated was unsafe. Just 6 weeks ago another officer was killed on the West Side in the Pilsen neighborhood. This is the 5th Chicago Police officer to be killed in the line of duty since Terry Hillard took over as Superintendant. Very sad.
I can't see how this helps Mr. Cole's belief about Chicago's 'wonderful' neighborhoods.
Silly me, I forgot that crime never happens in New York.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It occurs all right, just not nearly as often as in Chicago.
I'd love to continue this pissing contest, but the Simpsons are on. Gotta run.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The most up-to-date stats I could find for Chicago were from 1998, here's what I found:
In 1998 The Chicago Police Department reported 686 homicides.
Can someone get the stats for the same period in New York? I tried nyc.gov/nypd, but I can't download a pdf file.
In 1998 I'm pretty sure that New York had between 800 and a thousand homicides. Look it up to be certain for I could be wrong. I do know that it was not lower than Chicago's.
Eric D. Smith
Per capita stats are the important ones in this discussion.
"Basically anywhere from about 35th on the north, Damen on the west, 95th on the south, and the lake on the east would make anyone think twice about taking a walk during the DAY, let alone the night."
You're including Hyde Park in the unsafe zone?!?! Upper middle-class, mixed-income, mixed-race, home to the University of Chicago Hyde Park?!?!
Did Chicago have the first skyscraper?
Yes. The Home Insurance Building , designed by William LeBaron Jenny and built in 1885, is widely recognized as the world's first skyscraper. It was the first building to use a skeletal frame instead of masonry for support.
Was it first in numerous, pioneering innovations in structure?
Yes, far more so than New York. Steel framing, "floating" foundations, structural fireproofing, caissons, practical elevator technology, and forced-air ventillation all come to mind. Not to mention the organization of the modern architectural firm and today's accepted systems of construction administration, and at least three distinct schools of architectural theory so far.
Do you know why it was named the Empire State Building?
It was named after its anchor tenant, which went bankrupt during the Depression.
What does Chicago have? The Sun-Times building and Ann Landers?
Very funny. As I said, you obviously don't have a clue. Maybe you should try reading a history of modern architecture one of these days before you continue to make an ass of yourself here.
The Building was nominated for a 1995-96 Civil Engineering Wonder of the World Award... [blah, blah...]
That's wonderful. If you had any clue about architecture, you'd know that 99% of the awards out there don't count for shit. Most of them are a dime a dozen. I've worked for architects who have recieved awards for strip malls they've designed. Show me some Pritzker Prizes and AIA Gold Medal Awards, and I'll be impressed.
Again, I see no mention of Chicago here.
Again, because you obviously haven't read one shred of architectural history or current architectural trade journals.
The Empire State still attracts more than 2 million visitors a year. Can the ugly and lifeless Sears Tower compare?
If you consider such numbers an idication of architectural merit, then the Sears Tower gets about 1.5 million visitors a year. The John Hancock Center gets at least a similar number.
Where in Chicago are any of the World's Wonders? The sewage system?
We have many civil engineering wonders, including our skyscrapers, the railroads, the drawbridges, the canals, the water intake cribs, and the reversal of the Chicago River. However, our primary wonder is that we're not populated by inbred arrogant pricks.
I won't even belittle you about Chicago's neighborhoods, while most outlying areas such as Elgin are comfortable, areas in the South Side in the 90s would make any one think twice about taking a walk after dark.
The South Side is only one part of the city, and not all of it is a ghetto. Same for the North Side and the West Side. Of course, I presume New York has no dangerous neighborhoods.
However, I respect your opinions, and wish you good luck in the future.
Gee, thanks. You mock and insult my architectural knowledge and my hometown, but then give me a pat on the back. I respect your loyalty to New York, but I'm afraid your opinions are built upon a foundation of bullshit.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Amazing that one must resort to cursing to get a point across. I guess Chicago should be happy to call you a resident.
The Chicago 'River' is merely a canal.
The World Building in the Financial District was considered to be the first true skyscraper, in that it rose some 300' feet. However, my statement is in dispute since I have come across conflicting information from sources.
In YOUR opinion, the awards that I have stated aren't worth anything ( I wont quote your vulgarity ). But to BOMA and to Real Estate Advisory Board here in New York, and to numerous other architects, it is a significance.
Few, if any of your structures in Chicago have ever had the distinction and the recognition that our landmarks carry, in the past, present and into the future.
One should not have to read specific, trade oriented publications such as architectural history or current architectural trade journals to know what many already know about NYC's Class A Landmark Towers.
My question was "Where in Chicago are any of the World's Wonders? The sewage system.." in case you weren't following the subject. Since you couldn't come up with a viable answer, I'll be content with a resounding NO. New York City is the ONLY city in the world to have a skyscraper with such a distinction. It was the biggest building anyone had ever known and one of the most aesthetically pleasing. Its size and scale could not readily be put into perspective. So it was immediately billed as the Eighth Wonder of the World. In New York City. Not Chicago.
Skyscrapers, while arguably born in Chicago, are a dominance in New York City. The World, Masonic Temple, Manhattan Life, Saint Paul, Park Row, Singer Tower, Metropolitan Life, Woolworth, Manhattan Company, Chrysler, Empire State Building, World Trade Center are ALL New York City's. During the entire 20th century only seven buildings have achieved 'Super' status: Woolworth (1913), Equitable (1915), Empire State (1931), 30 Rockefeller Center (1932), World Trade Center I and II (1971-74), and Sears Tower (1974). 5 out of 6 are New York. Not Chicago.
I must admit, I was mistaken. The Empire State Building does NOT have 2 million visitors a year.
The correct figure is 3.5 million for the Empire State Building. In New York. Not Chicago. Source: http://www.esbnyc.com/
"The South Side is only one part of the city, and not all of it is a ghetto. Same for the North Side and the West Side. Of course, I presume New York has no dangerous neighborhoods"
Indeed we do, as I have stated before. But not nearly on the scale as Chicago, and judging by the posts here, I am not alone in my comments.
"You mock and insult my architectural knowledge and my hometown, but then give me a pat on the back. I respect your loyalty to New York, but I'm afraid your opinions are built upon a foundation of bullshit"
If you claim that I insult you by stating opinions regarding structures, then you have been stoned once too often in the South Side. I never mocked you, nor insulted you. I would have nothing to gain by that. I just had to remind you where Chicago stands on the Great Skyscraper Scale: 2nd. Same goes for the city itself. Wonderful city, but it's a second class New York.
Finally, since we are off the subject matter of electric transit, I ask if you wish to continue this debate, that you email me at a.m.voci@verizon.net. This discussion does not belong on this board, and I am going to concentrate my posts toward subject matter, period. I still invite you to respond to this post via e-mail, if you so choose.
I was sincere in my respect of your opinions and wishing you good luck. Again, no reason to resort to cursing. Unless you enjoy making an "ass out of yourself". That IS Chicago.
Amazing that one must resort to cursing to get a point across. I guess Chicago should be happy to call you a resident.
I wasn't aware New Yorkers had such delicate sensibilities. Or do Rudy's thugs now put 41 bullet holes into anyone who curses in public? Besides, if you're as much of an idiot in real life as you are on SubTalk, you should be very accustomed to people cursing at you by now.
The Chicago 'River' is merely a canal.
Go back and try fifth-grade geography again. The Sanitary and Ship Canal is an artificial waterway that connects the Chicago River to the Des Plaines River, and hence, the Mississippi River watershed. But the Chicago River itself is still a natural river. (Unlike, say, the estuary sometimes referred to as the East River.)
The World Building in the Financial District was considered to be the first true skyscraper, in that it rose some 300' feet.
Height has nothing to do with it. The definition of a skyscraper is an elevator building supported by a strutural frame rather than masonry walls, generally of ten stories or more. (A "high-rise", on the other hand, is defined by building codes as any structure over 75 feet tall, the typical cutoff point for fire engine ladders.) The Home Insurance Building was the first skyscraper, period.
However, my statement is in dispute since I have come across conflicting information from sources.
Your statement is in dispute because it's a complete falsehood. I think you still need some more practice before you'll become really good at being a pathetic liar.
...But to BOMA and to Real Estate Advisory Board here in New York, and to numerous other architects, it is a significance.
I never said the Empire State Building was insignificant. It's a beautiful building, and it's my favorite skyscraper in New York City. I even have a little model of it near my desk. But BOMA (Building Owners and Managers Association -- read: greedy landlords and developers) is by no means an authority on architectural quality. They only care about dollar signs, and Empire State happens to be a very profitable building because of its extreme snob appeal among its tenants. No wonder the real estate people love it. My former employer got a very presitgious BOMA award for an ugly suburban office park they designed near Atlanta. Nice to see the Empire State Building is in such good company, eh? How many awards has BOMA given to Fallingwater, or even NYC's own Guggenheim Museum (also designed by a Chicago-trained architect, by the way)?
Few, if any of your structures in Chicago have ever had the distinction and the recognition that our landmarks carry, in the past, present and into the future.
I guess that would explain why New York's architecture schools like Columbia, Pratt, Parsons, and Cooper Union all send students to Chicago for travel-study programs. Must be for the deep-dish pizza.
My question was "Where in Chicago are any of the World's Wonders?... New York City is the ONLY city in the world to have a skyscraper with such a distinction.
"World's Wonders" as defined by who, by what criteria, and for what purpose? Nevermind, I really don't care.
It was the biggest building anyone had ever known and one of the most aesthetically pleasing.
Sorry, wrong again. Chicago's Merchandise Mart, while not a tall building, was the biggest building in the world in terms of square footage. It began construction in 1923 and was finished in 1931. Even today, only the Pentagon is larger.
Nobody denies the Empire State Building looks good on the postcards they sell in their gift shop, but it was not a ground-breaking building architecturally. Its primary distinctions were its height, the speed in which it was constructed, and its status as an icon of the city (mainly due to a blonde actress and a man in a gorilla suit).
Skyscrapers, while arguably born in Chicago, are a dominance in New York City. The World, Masonic Temple, Manhattan Life, Saint Paul, Park Row, Singer Tower, Metropolitan Life, Woolworth, Manhattan Company, Chrysler, Empire State Building, World Trade Center are ALL New York City's.
Don't confuse quantity with quality. Skyscrapers are a dominance in NYC simply because there are a lot of them. Architectural innovation is a dominance in Chicago, and not just in skyscrapers. Chicago's ground-breaking skyscrapers number in the dozens, and can easily be looked up in any good architectural history book. I don't need to list them here.
During the entire 20th century only seven buildings have achieved 'Super' status: Woolworth (1913), Equitable (1915), Empire State (1931), 30 Rockefeller Center (1932), World Trade Center I and II (1971-74), and Sears Tower (1974). 5 out of 6 are New York. Not Chicago.
Again, "Super" as defined by who? Donald Trump? The New York Association of Taxidermists?
The correct figure is 3.5 million for the Empire State Building. In New York. Not Chicago.
So 3.5 million tourists shelled out $8 each for an elevator ride and a view. Therefore, New York has better architecture. I love that logic. Maybe you should contact Blair Kamin or Robert Muchamp with that brilliant theory.
Indeed we do [have dangerous neighborhoods], as I have stated before. But not nearly on the scale as Chicago, and judging by the posts here, I am not alone in my comments.
What the hell do you expect in a forum where the vast majority of posters are New Yorkers? So Chicago has a higher crime rate. Statistics can be manipulated to serve any argument. Why not come to Chicago and spend some time exploring the city before you make such idiotic comments.
I just had to remind you where Chicago stands on the Great Skyscraper Scale: 2nd. Same goes for the city itself. Wonderful city, but it's a second class New York.
That's one very subjective opinion by one very ignorant person, not gospel truth.
Finally, since we are off the subject matter of electric transit, I ask if you wish to continue this debate, that you email me at a.m.voci@verizon.net.
When you state blatantly false information in a public forum, I will correct it in a public forum. But for now, there's obviously no point in trying to continue this discussion. We've each made our points. Respond if you want, but I've got better things to do with my time than to continue this pissing contest. Maybe after you spend a few years in architecture school, a few more years working as an architect, and still a few more years doing independent study and travelling to various cities and universities, you'll be able to come back and have an intelligent discussion with me about architecture. I'll even suggest a few books and design journals to help you get started:
The Sky's the Limit: A Century of Chicago Skyscrapers, edited by Pauline A. Saliga.
City of the Century: The Epic of Chicago and the Making of America by Donald L. Miller
City: Rediscovering the Center by William H. Whyte
Architectural Record (The official journal of the American Institute of Architects)
Architecture
Progressive Architecture (No longer published, but the back issues are worth a look)
Inland Architect
(Note that Architectural Digest and the AAA Travel Guide to New York City are not on the list.)
But in the meantime, I'd rather be discussing transit. Now I know what Train Dude must feel like when he's arguing with somebody who knows absolutely nothing about subways.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I never said the Empire State Building was insignificant. It's a beautiful building, and it's my favorite skyscraper in New York City. I even have a little model of it near my desk. But BOMA (Building Owners and Managers Association -- read: greedy landlords and developers) is by no means an authority on architectural quality. They only care about dollar signs, and Empire State happens to be a very profitable building because of its extreme snob appeal among its tenants. No wonder the real estate people love it.
Another reason why the Empire State Building is so profitable is the fact that it has a very large number of tenants occupying mostly small spaces. One look at the tenant directory bears this out quite vividly. Larger, multi-floor tenants would be in a position to demand rent concessions; management would be hard-pressed to turn down these demands, because if one or two of the large tenants got angry and left there'd be a big loss of rent income. The small tenants have no such leverage, of course.
Good point. The other reason there's very few large, multi-floor tenants is because the building's small floor plates and very dense column grid prevent large open areas of office space. The building was built in the days before air conditioning, so the distance between the elevator core and outside wall of the building is very short. Workers are closer to the windows, but there's no room for the large cubicle farms that modern corporations like. (Compare to the Sears Tower, designed as a corporate headquarters building with up to 75 feet between the core and exterior, with no structural columns in the leasable area. Most postwar office buildings have similar large floor plates.) By today's standards, the Empire State Building is actually pretty terrible in terms of the flexibility and amenities that larger corporations demand.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The other reason there's very few large, multi-floor tenants is because the building's small floor plates and very dense column grid prevent large open areas of office space. The building was built in the days before air conditioning, so the distance between the elevator core and outside wall of the building is very short. Workers are closer to the windows, but there's no room for the large cubicle farms that modern corporations like ... By today's standards, the Empire State Building is actually pretty terrible in terms of the flexibility and amenities that larger corporations demand.
The total leaseable square footage of the Empire State Building is not much over one million, which is absurdly low for a building of that height. While it's esthetically a very nice building, no developer in his right mind would build anything remotely like it today.
To David and Peter;
I hope you both realize how foolish you look playing your juvenile game of "mine's bigger than yours."
Tom
To David and Peter;
I hope you both realize how foolish you look playing your juvenile game of "mine's bigger than yours."
I wasn't playing that game. I just made a couple of matter-of-fact comments concerning the Empire State Building.
Peter and I happen to be in agreement on this particular issue. And even when we're not in agreement about something (it's happened before), at least he can form a well-thought argument supported by solid data. I actually enjoy the challenge.
The guy from Staten Island was the one polluting the board with falsehoods and misinformation on a subject I happen to know a lot about, and was presenting his personal opinions as if they were facts. I was correcting him, but have since given up. If it bothers you that much, then don't read the thread.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Tom:
I started this thing with my original post so if there's anyone to blame it's me. Cole came to my defense when I was attacked for favorably comparing Chicago architecture and rapid transit to New York's. Though I'd made peace with my original opponent and have no desire to restart a "pissing contest" with him, the bottom line is that Cole is right and his response to the assault upon his judgment and character is appropriate. He is, to the extent that such is possible under these circumstances, a friend and for what it's worth I support his stance 100%! There are times when you simply cannot turn your back to provocations.
ItalianGuyInSI, your beef is with me. I'm the one who first said that Chicago's architecture and transit system compares favorably to New York's. If you want to go after anybody then come after me but leave David alone. Cole is from Chicago and he loves his hometown as much as you obviously love yours. When you attack a guy's home, then don't be surprised at the severity of the response. This thing has gone way beyond the absurd. I'm sorry I ever wrote the damn post!
Eric Dale Smith
Eric:
Your friend, Mr. Cole, should have thought about that before he used this board as a cursing post toward me. I don't tolerate that. Neither should anyone else.
Mr. Cole may have a love for his city, which is wonderful, and I like Chicago too, when I arrive there via Union and not O'Hare, but I'll be damned if I am going to sit back and listen to me being cursed at by a Windy City dweller. I try to have meaningful debates, and when foul language is inserted, it's a sure sign that the poster has nothing else important to say.
BTW I'm going to go to Broadway/Myrtle for another walk thru. :)
You don't have to curse somebody out to be profane. Behaving like a patronizating, arrogant, simple minded, putdown loving wise guy invites the name calling and cursing you're complaining about. You love to stick it to people but when you get stuck you squeal like a poked pig. Cole is even tempered and goes out of his way to avoid fights like this but he's no fool; when confronted with the filth you've thrown at him he'd be a sap to respond in any other way. The man is obviously an expert on both architecture and rapid transit so GET OVER IT! That said, he's also my friend and when you attacked him you also attacked me (again). I haven't cursed (yet) but keep this up and I'll take my wig off and get really ugly.
Eric Dale Smith
That's an opinion, if you believe that I was being arrogant, patronizing, etc. etc. Foul language has no such line, it's either there or not.
I do not 'stick it' to anyone. If you call having a discussion and/or debate sticking it to someone, so be it, those are your words. I can't determine what 'filth' it was that you claim I threw at him, but I sure as hell didn't CURSE at the man, I have that much respect for him. If he can't show the same respect then he or anyone else doesn't deserve the courtesy of a reply, much less any other acknowledgement. Reread his posts, you will notice the harsh tone that he equated to me from the beginning.
I never had to resort to cursing. I presented my thoughts, and facts, as he did his own, but his came WITH cursing. I won't tolerate being cursed at by any person.
I do not want to keep anything 'up'. The original dispute was stringers for the Broadway El. You said that all of the stringers west of ENY were original to 1888. I took time and effort to fax you pictures, that you knew about, showing that to be in error. I showed you that wasn't the case (1915 Myrtle DC reconstruction). That's all I really cared about was the el and the construction. Period.
I wasn't aware New Yorkers had such delicate sensibilities. Or do Rudy's thugs now put 41 bullet holes into anyone who curses in public? Besides, if you're as much of an idiot in real life as you are on SubTalk, you should be very accustomed to people cursing at you by now."
Having a debate or even a lively discussion should not subject others to foul language, unless your total lack of vocabulary forces you to replace words with cursing. Or are you a leftover from the Daly era, when no one could say anything without involving foul-language?
"Your statement is in dispute because it's a complete falsehood. I think you still need some more practice before you'll become really good at being a pathetic liar."
My statement is in dispute because a number of sources indicate Chicago, whereby others indicate Manhattan. At least I verify my sources, so don't pat yourself on the back.
"Go back and try fifth-grade geography again. The Sanitary and Ship Canal is an artificial waterway that connects the Chicago River to the Des Plaines River, and hence, the Mississippi River watershed. But the Chicago River itself is still a natural river. (Unlike, say, the estuary sometimes referred to as the East River.)"
Anytime a canal flow is changed, as in this case, you cannot consider that to be a natural river. If it was a NATURAL "river", then the flow would be left untouched, the flow was reversed in 1900. Unless you are a natural moron. Then you can say it's a Natural Canal, pardon, a "river".
"I guess that would explain why New York's architecture schools like Columbia, Pratt, Parsons, and Cooper Union all send students to Chicago for travel-study programs. Must be for the deep-dish pizza"
No, I would say they come to experience the Chicago Tower Effect, counting the number of vacant square feet in each of the Loop's buildings.
""World's Wonders" as defined by who, by what criteria, and for what purpose? Nevermind, I really don't care."
You do not care simply because you have no argument to refute this. No other city except New York has a building to carry such a distinction.
"Sorry, wrong again. Chicago's Merchandise Mart, while not a tall building, was the biggest building in the world in terms of square footage. It began construction in 1923 and was finished in 1931. Even today, only the Pentagon is larger."
Bigger in terms of HEIGHT. Are you that thick to believe that Chicago was even in the running to complete with NYC in terms of height in the early 1930's?
"Don't confuse quantity with quality. Skyscrapers are a dominance in NYC simply because there are a lot of them. Architectural innovation is a dominance in Chicago, and not just in skyscrapers. Chicago's ground-breaking skyscrapers number in the dozens, and can easily be looked up in any good architectural history book. I don't need to list them here"
Why not? Show off what you have, or don't have, as is likely the case. Skyscrapers are very much a part of Chicago as well, but they don't have the rich history as do NYC's skyscrapers and Jumbo's.
"Again, "Super" as defined by who? Donald Trump? The New York Association of Taxidermists?"
No, by the Skyscraper Museum. Located, of course, in New York City.
"So 3.5 million tourists shelled out $8 each for an elevator ride and a view. Therefore, New York has better architecture. I love that logic. Maybe you should contact Blair Kamin or Robert Muchamp with that brilliant theory."
3.5 million annual vistors come to experience the Eighth Wonder Of The World. They come just for that, to witness the unique architecture that IS Empire State. Hancock and Sears are ugly and lifeless behemoths. That is preciesly why they don't get the sheer volume that the Empire does.
"What the hell do you expect in a forum where the vast majority of posters are New Yorkers? So Chicago has a higher crime rate. Statistics can be manipulated to serve any argument. Why not come to Chicago and spend some time exploring the city before you make such idiotic comments"
So? So it's GOOD to have a high crime rate? This site has users from all of the country, including California and Europe. It is NOT dominated by New Yorkers in any sense. The SUBJECT matter is NYC Subway. I have been to Chicago numerous times, most of them sadly via O'Hare and not Union. Chicago's higher crime rate is a just another reason why the city isn't in the same company with NYC. When first going down past Cermak is when I noticed the crime.
"That's one very subjective opinion by one very ignorant person, not gospel truth"
The gospel truth shines through when you compare revenue tourist dollars generated in NYC and Chicago.
I would list New York's Architectural Standings, but the listing would surely be many times of the paltry list that you have given me.
At least you have learned not to curse in an open forum.
"And let's not get started about each city's residential neighborhoods outside of downtown. The outer neighborhoods -- no offense to any other SubTalkers who live there -- look like shanty-towns compared to the tree-lined streets, ornate apartment buildings, and tidy brick houses of Chicago's neighborhoods. And unlike New York, we don't pile our trash out on the sidewalks (Chicago was smart enough to incorporate alleys into the street grid, keeping our city from smelling like an open sewer) and regular people can actually afford to live here."
If the outer neighborhoods look like shantytowns (compared to Chi's neighborhoods), then my area would be a Hooverville. Yep, it would, with all of its high - rise brownstones, intricate passageways that put Times Sq. to shame, various merchant shops, and two - laned tree - lined streets (I am referring, of course, to Parkchester). If you don't believe me, then ride the 6 to Parkchester the next time you are in town.
Unfortunatly, I can't dispute you on the affordability bit, since the Average Joe has been priced out of Manhattan Is. and will soon be forced into LI, PA, and CT within ten years the way rents are going up. But watch out, soon this rent spike trend will soon come to Chicago if not already.
...Yep, it would, with all of its high - rise brownstones, intricate passageways that put Times Sq. to shame, various merchant shops, and two - laned tree - lined streets...
Sounds a lot like Chicago's Lincoln Park or any of about a half-dozen or so similar neighborhoods. Lincoln Park is grossly overpriced (by Chicago standards), but there are plenty of other affordable neighborhoods here with brownstones, independent merchants, and narrow tree-lined side streets. My own neighborhood of Edgewater comes to mind. I live in a large studio apartment two blocks away from the lake, and I only pay $550 in rent (heat included). And I didn't have to wait for somebody to die before I could move in.
Plus, I'd be willing to bet that typical rents in yuppie-ville Lincoln Park are still cheaper than even, say, Bed-Sty. The major difference between New York's housing market and Chicago's housing market is that, when prices start to climb, builders see the opportunities and start building additional housing. Supply and demand, what a concept!
Okay, I think this thread has now earned a spot in the "Beaten to Death" pile...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Plus, I'd be willing to bet that typical rents in yuppie-ville Lincoln Park are still cheaper than even, say, Bed-Sty. The major difference between New York's housing market and Chicago's housing market is that, when prices start to climb, builders see the opportunities and start building additional housing. Supply and demand, what a concept!
Developers put up new rental and co-op/condominium buildings in New York too, but with rare exceptions they're very expensive. New York's high housing prices are due to a variety of factors. Rent control is the single biggest one, without doubt; a high percentage of the city's rental housing is for all intents and purposes off the market on a near-permanent basis.
Long Island and Connecticut? Forget them, much of both areas have long been priced out of the Average Joe's reach. That and/or property taxes have gotten too high. PA, maybe, but if I have to commute TWO hours each way to get to my job, without traffic (the Poconos are easily that far), then I just might want to look for a job elsewhere. Very few jobs are worth super-long commutes, even if they are in Manhattan.
Look at it this way: LI and CT are within and hour's commute from the city. That's for those who are looking for "affordable" housing (when I say "affordable," think of this in the sense of the price of a private college education.) For those with very deep pockets, Manhattan and the outer boroughs offer much better accesibility, or, less than an hour's commute. The big companies in Midtown and Lower Manhattan know this, which is why rents in areas at or near the subways are flying through the roof. Therefore, at this rate, the average Joe will be forced back into PA. And for that matter, RI or DE. That is, unless he can shell out the bills.
ok i will WHIP your chicago CTA any day with the # 7 line elevated sections any day .............lol!!!
I like the #7. It was my favorite El growing up but as far as historic significance is concerned, it can't compete with Brooklyn's Broadway El, let alone anything running in Chicago.
Eric D. Smith
P.S. Don't start throwing bombs Salaam. I'm at Defcon Two already and Defcon One is war.
Question what line does it run on .......
Brooklyn's Broadway El ??? just wanted to know !! ( thanks ) :)
The J and M (from Myrtle to Marcy Avenues)
Eric D. Smith
thanks ! oh yea ...........a shot that train video ( except for the z ) day & night crossed willy b many times enjoyed it to death !!! JMLE
a 10 hour tape .... lol !!
Does anyone know, or can anyone dig up the murder and/or violent crime stats for the NYPD compared to the CPD during the same period (such as 2000 if they're out yet or '99)? I'm not going to take either side in this debate but I am curious about the murder/violent crime stats for each city.
Crime statshave to be taken with a grain of salt. When former police commissioner Frank Rizzo was mayor of Philly, violent crime stats plummeted because of under-reporting, in order to maintain his tough cop image.
Crime statshave to be taken with a grain of salt. When former police commissioner Frank Rizzo was mayor of Philly, violent crime stats plummeted because of under-reporting, in order to maintain his tough cop image.
Very true about crime-statistics manipulation. That's why it's sometimes better to look only at homicide rates and ignore other crimes. Just about all homicides are reported to the police, and unlike other offenses, they can't readily be covered up or mis-classified.
You can find all those statisitcs for the NYPD, and specific precinct stats in *.pdf format at the NYPD website, http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/home.html
just go to visit a Precinct/Police Service Area/Transit District
The West Jersey Chapter NRHS held its annual picnic on Saturday August 18 at Bob Stanton's dairy farm in Salem County. Bob has built a two-foot gauge railroad, the Riverview and Woodside, beginning with track and equipment obtained from those two amusement parks upon their demise. Photographs of the railroad and trolley line are posted for the enjoyment of those who may be interested.
Yahoo photos thumbnails
Great shots... the best one is #45...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, Anon. I like that one too.
This was Pete's second train ride; my daughter took him to Philly on PATCO last week.
Bob
My favourite was riding the speeder. That was better than any roller coaster.
My favourite was riding the speeder. That was better than any roller coaster.
The element of perceived danger was certainly there, since you expect a roller coaster to be safe, but the speeder seemed ready to jump off the track at each bump and curve. The vibration felt good, too.
Not to mention the wheel wearing away your shoe leather.
"I smell rubber burning."
"It's not me."
These are the numbers of the cars in the order that they were loaded on the barge on Thursday at 207th St Yard.
WEEKS CRANE # 508
WEEKS BARGE # 266 (Cars)
WEEKS BARGE # 202 (Trucks) (To Naporano)
8654, 8655, 9545, 9544, 7814, 7815, 7789, 7788, 7844, 7845, 7796, 7797, 7778, 7779, 9321, 9056, 7890, 7891, 7850, 7851.
Diesels 62 and 898 did the honors of bringing the cars four at a time.
-Mark W.
Mark!
Thanks for the info.
Question though: 9056 was on the barge, so it came back from DC? What of 9057?
-Stef
Yes.....9056 came back and was brought right into the shop to be stripped. 9057 will probably be on the next barge.
Thanks for the info. Be sure to keep us updated on other cars that leave on the barge.
-Stef
Must mean 9057 unless the Washington D.C. car came back?
It was 9056. That car has done alot of traveling lately.
9057 will probably be on the next barge out.
-Mark
Where did the number plates go to? I would love to purchase one from the R33/36 WF's after they are sent to Davey Jones' locker.
They'll probably be under water with the cars. You could always scooba dive for one.....
-Stef
A wasted money opportunity... could easily sell
those number plates for (say) $8.00 a piece
and make a cool, creamy $48,000 off a
1,500 car fleet scrapping... and save
us geese from another headscratching fare hike, MTA.
Most of them are un-sellable. The original metal plates (which the TA Museum sells for $5) were removed years ago. The plates on the cars now are rusted, stick-on numbers that are not worth very much.
What about other items from the cars, like rollsigns, benches, and straps?
From what I understand, a lot of those things are in the dumpsters. No sense keeping any of it for spares.
One man's trash is another man's treasure.
>One man's trash is another man's treasure.
BINGO on the money Steve! :)
....and whether those numbers are metal, stick-on,
or painted... if a certain car had sentimental
value to you... one will likely want to purchase
a piece (of/from) that car REGARDLESS of it's
condition!!!
One man's trash is another man's treasure, too!
Check out the new Brooklyn Bus Map posted at http://www.mnr.org/nyct/maps.
It has the new Manhattan Bridge subway routes, but it still shows the line running across the Manhattan Bridge to Grand Street where the S stops. The weirder part is they put in a new circle for the Q, Q and between the N/R and 6 stations, but no new line for it! Apparently there's a station but no tracks.
The new Manhattan map doesn't have this error.
Oh. You mean "MAP ALERT."
I thought you meant "MAYPO ALERT" and I'd have to hide my Wheaties.
No. It's a mapographical error.
I WANT MY MAYPO!
There is a height requirement and has been for many years, it is 44". MTA doesn't care about age, except for senior citizens and if you look like a midget. Triboro has to know someone's three years old or younger I believe. That's all I know.
If that's all you know, perhaps you can direct me to the TA rule of policy that states anything about 44 inches. In the meantime, TA Rule 24b does state,
"Children under six years of age will be carried free on all lines of the NYC Transit System, including rapid transit and bus lines, when accompanied by an adult, but not more than three children will be carried free with any one adult."
Now, if you have any written policy or rule that contradicts this, I'd like to see it.
Dude, they changed the rule when the fare went from (IIRC) $1.15 to $1.25 On the buses, they stamped a mark into the stanchion next to the front stair. Can't find the exact stuff. Oddly, the 'fares' section of the MTA website doesn't say a word about how much the fare is.
-Hank
Will, I just checked the fare information on the NYCT website and it has nothing about children - either by height or by age. Although there is no relationship, the LIRR goes by age and not height.
As Hank said, the "Fares" section of the TA web site doesn't bother giving any information at all on this topic. But look at the bus timetable of your choice, and there it is: 44 inches. (It's not on the subway timetables.)
I didn't know of any rule, and I have no idea whether or not Hank is right in his other post, but on the backs of bus/subway maps I have seen 44 inches for at least 5-6 years. As Hank said, maybe it was originally 6 years when the fare was lower? By the way, there's no proof of age, so somebody when that rule was in effect could probably sneak a 7 or 8 year old in. A height requirement gives the B/O or token clerk something to work with and can prove him/herself when he/she says someone has to pay.
Actually, I did some checking and found out that you are correct. The rule was changed in the 1992 rulebook, substituting the height requirement for the age requirement. Now I wonder if token booth clerks are required to come out of the booth to measure children? Were they issued 'official' tape measures?
I see a business opportunity here ... little Rudy cutouts by the turnstiles, with a balloon above the head saying, "you must be at least this tall to ride" ... maybe a clown suit so as to not frighten the kids. :)
Railpace Hotnews lists schedule improvements to be implemented tomorrow.
Will, lets see they've:
1. added a 4;34pm Flatbush to Ronkonoma local;
2. added an 8:37pm Flatbush to Far Rock local;
3. added an LIC stop to the current 7;26 Hunterpoint arrival from Speonk.
but...
1. in order to provide the new Ronkonkoma train, they've eliminated the 4:34pm Flatbush to Huntington train, robbing Peter to pay Paul.
2. the 8:37pm Far Rock is put in to eliminate a 1 hour and 13 gap in service. Compare to the subway, which operates service to Far Rock every 20 minutes at 3 a.m. seven days a week.
3. lets passengers on a Hunterspoint train ride into L.I.C., where the equipment goes anyway.
More examples of how the MTA panders to rich suburban commuters. Where's the Straphangers Campaign when you need them?
Will, lets see they've:
1. added a 4;34pm Flatbush to Ronkonoma local;
2. added an 8:37pm Flatbush to Far Rock local;
3. added an LIC stop to the current 7;26 Hunterpoint arrival from Speonk.
but...
1. in order to provide the new Ronkonkoma train, they've eliminated the 4:34pm Flatbush to Huntington train, robbing Peter to pay Paul.
2. the 8:37pm Far Rock is put in to eliminate a 1 hour and 13 gap in service. Compare to the subway, which operates service to Far Rock every 20 minutes at 3 a.m. seven days a week.
3. lets passengers on a Hunterspoint train ride into L.I.C., where the equipment goes anyway.
More examples of how the MTA panders to rich suburban commuters. Where's the Straphangers Campaign when you need them?
I don't see this as pandering, as much as making some rather trivial changes and making it seem like there'll be big service improvements. It's actually somewhat condescending.
Actually, shifting the 4:34 Flatbush train from Huntington to Ronkonkoma makes some sense. While Huntington trains are crowded, they're not as horrifying as the Ronkonkoma cattle cars. Any bit helps.
I sure wish they'd improve Oyster Bay line service, trains should run no less than hourly even on weekends. And the weekend trains can be especially crowded in the summer.
And the OB line goes through some pretty wealthy areas so go figure.
Being a semi-frequent rider on the OB branch to Roslyn from Penn, I can tell you that it can be a bit crowded, not that much though. Also, on all except one of the trains I've been on headed to Mineola or Jamaica, the cab car has been blocked off and only the cars before it are open for passengers, why is this? It seems really dumb! Also, I got on ONE train that had the car open for passengers, but the four seats in the "middle" section closest to the cab was blocked with a wooden flag pole for workman, and the conductors had their shiat laying around there...
Many times on the LIRR the front car is blocked off while the rest of them are packed. Attribute it to lazy conductors.
And LIRR employees who think they're entitled to a private car as a perk of employment.
Why doesn't someone write to the president of the LIRR about this issue. Every once in a while this is griped about on SubTalk, but never have I heard LIRR management issue a statement on this.
The LIRR knows all about it. Among other things they have ordered minimum numbers of cars to be open on certain lines at certain times.
I used to get a rush hour train from Penn that normally had eight cars in the consist. It came in on Track 20, which used to be an eight-car platform. Sometimes it would have 10 cars and the last two would be off the the platform. If the train was crowded the conductor would order the last two open and people could walk through. One time these last two cars were closed except for some LIRR track worker types. The train got crowded, the commuters complained and the conductor opened the last two. Those LIRR workers complained loudly and in easy hearing of the commuters about what a bum the conductor was for opening "their" cars.
As a railfan, I hate the fact that the first two cars are frequently closed off.
That being said, during off peak hours, it makes sense to close some cars in order to keep the passengers closer together and allow for ticket collection with only 2 conductors. And if you're going to close off 2 cars, your only choices are the first two or the last two. Now consider where the injuries/fatalities are in most train accidents. Which two would you close?
How about non-functional HVAC, or a car destined ultimately for the yard? It's been known to happen.
If the HVAC doesn't work let the pax decide wether to face a cool crowded car or a hot empty car. I've never seen any RR close a car because the A/C wasn't working. I have seen them shift the area that was open (ie: if there is a 3 car OB train, 2 cars must be open but the car behind the engine is hot they instead open the cab and middle car).
I sure wish they'd improve Oyster Bay line service, trains should run no less than hourly even on weekends. And the weekend trains can be especially crowded in the summer.
And the OB line goes through some pretty wealthy areas so go figure.
Many people who live near the Oyster Bay line instead use the Port Washington line because of its better service.
where is it and havent seen it in service in a while
and what up with 6321-6330
6301-10 is running. its been running for a while now. its odd you haven't seen it. if you don't see now, its most likely that it is out being cleaned. grimey interior and exterior. 6321-30 is in there also running very well. the flawed bombardiers are coming back one after the other also. when they come back, they are being set up and tested then put in.
I have been on car 6301 on 7/27. I have been on 6321 on 6/22. Haven't seen either train since.
last time i was on 6301-6310 was 6/15/01 i got it the whole week and what happen i just wanted to know if 6321-6330 are hooked together
Yep.
Last time I checked, 6321-6330 is together.
Another thing. 7211-7215 is back on the road. Hooked to 7391-7395.
CWalNYC
carlwal@hotmail.com
wazup carl its r142man from your website what is up with the r142a's get coupled weird now
The Queens-bound platforms at Hewes, Flushing, Kosciuszko, and Halsey are closed for reconstruction. That means that, in the afternoon rush hour when the Z is running, the J doesn't make any stops between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway. Since at those times it's already on the express track arriving at Myrtle from Marcy, does the J continue on the express track to Eastern Parkway, leaving the Z alone on the local track? If not, why not?
No. Between Marcy and Myrtle J/Z trains will sometimes operate express or if not they will go in the local track with the M. I remember when they closed the Lorimer Station J/Z trains often went on the local track during afternoon rush making all stops.
Between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway J/Z trains stop at BOTH the Chauncey and Gates Ave Stations. AFTER Eastern Parkway J/Z trains operate the standard Skip-stop service.
Im guessing the J trains dont operate on the center express track between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway is because then the Z would be overcrowded in some points along the line. And besides what happens if two J trains pass a local Z train when they arrive at Eastern Parkway. They would have to wait for a Z train to fill in that J-Z-J gap. Kinda defeats the purpose of Skip-Stop Service after Eastern Parkway.
Im gonna contradict myself here. On a RARE occasion the J/Z trains will operate on the Center Express track between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway but Im guessing that is only done when there is heavy construction on the stations being rehabilitated. But I notice when trains get to Eastern Parkway the opposite platform is VERY crowded.
At night and on weekends the J trains will operate on the Center track ALL THE WAY from Marcy to Eastern Parkway. That is such a ride. I get to the front of the train and start taking pictures when it is in motion. Id like to post a few but I dont know how to embed pictures in here like some other people do :(
Does skip-stop service even help people get places faster? If it's J-Z-J, the J will not pass the Z and so wouldn't you be better off taking the local Z?
But the idea is that each J and Z saves dwell time at the passed stations, so overall it should be faster.
It is. It save 5-6 minutes from Supthin to Essex as opposed to a J running local east of Myrtle.
So skip-stop is suspended between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway while this GO is in effect?
If that's not the case, then afternoon rush hour J trains are skipping all stops between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway anyway, so running them on the express track changes nothing except that trains don't have to slow down at each bypassed station.
>>>>>>>>>Between Marcy and Myrtle J/Z trains will sometimes operate express or if not they will go in the local track with the M.
All J/Z service (peak direction) operates on the express track between Myrtle-Marcy. An occasional J/Z train operates local in the event of a delay in M service.
>>>>>>>>>Between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway J/Z trains stop at BOTH the Chauncey and Gates Ave Stations. AFTER Eastern Parkway J/Z trains operate the standard Skip-stop service.
That is true, but only Queens bound. Towards Manhattan, regular skip-stop service to Myrtle Av is still in effect.
>>>>>>>>On a RARE occasion the J/Z trains will operate on the Center Express track between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway but Im guessing that is only done when there is heavy construction on the stations being rehabilitated. But I notice when trains get to Eastern Parkway the opposite platform is VERY crowded.
At night and on weekends the J trains will operate on the Center track ALL THE WAY from Marcy to Eastern Parkway.
That's because there is a G.O. in effect with work trains occupying 1 track northbound in the vicinity of the closed stations. This express G.O. should be in effect for the next 5 weekends.
>>That's because there is a G.O. in effect with work trains occupying 1 track northbound in the vicinity of the closed stations. This express G.O. should be in effect for the next 5 weekends.<<
Dont the J trains operate on the Center track on late nights as well during the week of the construction?
On Thursday Sea Beach Fred and Brighton Beach Bob rode the subway and it will never be the same. In fact Fred even rode the 5 to Dyre Ave. His coments. Is this the Bronx? In Order N Stillwell to DeKalb, Q to Times Sq, walk to GCT. 5 to Dyre Ave, 5 to 180th, Hoped to get a 2 142 but none came, then 5 to 14th St, 6 to Canal. Q to Coney Island with a deli stop at Kings Highway. Visit to Nathans and Cyclone in AM
Couldn't find a 142 on the 2? They're usually quite easy to find, especially if you look around noon (at that time they're mostly heading southbound though).
Saw some, but we waited at E180 and 5 RedBirds passed us by so we got tired, and took the next train South
So did you two have a nice Brighton-Sea Beach "debate" the whole time?:-)
No, Politics and baseball
Too bad. On my recent touristy trip, two of the four Q diamonds I was on passed Slow Beaches, one on Broadway Exp. and one at Dekalb. Saw uptown Q circle R68 passing Slow Beach under Broadway, too.
Watch that slow beach crap Q or I'll take away your toys. It was great trip. The only bummer was our trip to the Bronx. Yikes. We went on the Dyre Line up to the terminal. What a crappy neighborhood. A real sleaze job. Should have taken the #1. At least I was impressed with that area when I rode there in March. But Dyre Ave? The pits.
Fred is used to upper Middle Class Areas where he lives,with upper Middle Class families and kids. Typical Republican, does not want to know about the real world
Notice that he spelled Slow Beach in lower case.
The N we were on actually got up to 32mph under 4th ave, for 10 seconds.
Wow!
I was on one in the morning rush of Thursday, Aug. 16, northbound, under 4th Av., an R68, that seemed to be doing 40, perhaps a tad more, for a while between 36th and Pacific. Anyway, those columns seemed to be rushing by about as fast as they did in the heyday of the Brighliners 35 years ago. But, as could be expected, this N had waited for an R local at 59th St. and then pulled in ahead of, but got left behind in the dust, by a Q R40 slant at Dekalb. The previous day was an absolute classic for the "N"ever and the "R"arely in the late afternoon rush hour, around 6 PM, southbound under 4th Av. We needed to get to 95th St. in Fort Hamilton from the financial district. Took an M at Fulton to Pacific. Waited there about 6 minutes until a W came in, took it to 36th. Then waited about 5 minutes more for N or R, but a W pulls in. Then simultaneous station and T/O announcement at 36th that the W that just pulled in will run the N route to Coney Island. So we took it to 59th. Then waited another 6 to 8 minutes for the R.
Sounds like you had a hell of a day. Treat yourself to a drink.
I'd like to go up there... seems interesting to see it. Besides, I've never been there. Are there any reasons why I shouldn't go up there though? (seriously)
Go where? Dyre Ave, was not that bad. Fred is not used to real Eastern City Life
Nonsense, it was a seedy dump. The Bronx at its worst. Believe it or not, when I was a kid most ofthe Bronx was a real nice place. Some of it could even be called suburbs. What the hell happened to it?
When you were a kid the subway cost 15cents, egg creams 10 cents, nickle pretzels and cokes, You left almost 50 years ago.
It was almost 47 years ago. Stop trying to run up my age. You aren't exactly a recent mint New Yorker either. You left four years after I did. Besides we still have things there that bring us back. Me the Cyclone and Coney Island, you the Bronx. Ha!!!!!!
I am a Brooklyn Boy thru and thru even though I rooted for the Yankees and still do, even during the late 60s-70s when they stunk. I did not jump ship from my team when the stunk, like you did toi the dodgers, I also stuck by the Football Giants, Knicks and Rangers.
What did Fred have to say about the Mets? Or was he voicing his dislike for the Yankees? Oh and did he pick up a Cyclones cap?
The Mets beat the Dodger two of three, so that was a consolation of sorts. And, yes, I droned on about the Yankees who I despise. No Cyclone cap, but a Cyclone shirt, and a Brooklyn Cyclones shirt as well.
Cool T Shirt, wish I bought one, Fred s is Bright Orange, like the Mets. He forgot to tell you he bought personalized baseball caps. Mine #1Brighton Beach Bob and His #4 Sea Beach Fred(In Mets Colors)
Disregard the first part of my post two minutes ago. Now the Mets are taking on the Rockies, who have pulled a major El Foldo this year. Last night, Piazza hit a shot off Mike Hampton.
Yea and wasn't that cool? The Mets beat the Rockies and bood the hell out of that traitor Hampton. Serves him right.
They did it again last night. Too little too late, though.
The Mets have some work to do over the winter. Why they didn't trade for Gary Sheffield is a blunder too difficult to explain. The multitude of one and two run games they have lost this season could have been turned into wins with another big bat in the lineup.
we already discussed that when you were here
At least they're not doing what the Rockies have done this year - unload everything including the kitchen sink. Actually, the Mets did do that back in 1967. They used 54 players that year including 27 pitchers. I don't think there were more than a dozen players who stayed on the roster for the entire season.
Kings Highway Deli stop ... Adelman's, I presume?
--Mark
OF COURSE, plus I showed Fred where I grew up, found a egg cream at a Candy Store on the Southside of the subway station(Kings Hwy) on the 16th Street Side of the tracks. My mouth watered so much. Brought Adelman s back to Virginia with me and my 93 year old mom is having a corned beef on rye for dinner tonight. FRED HATES ONIONS
Must have just missed you at Adelman's. Was there on two consecutive Fridays, mid-afternoon. I didn't know about a place where you can still get egg creams. Thanks for the info.
We were there on Thursday around 7-715PM just for the take out. Old Fred was trying to pick up the 19 year old cashier
Well, at least he has good taste.
Naaawwwwwwwww. Fred's a happily married man. Did he say anything about the Sea Beach to her?
See Steve, you know me better than Bob does, and we have never formally met. Of course I'm happily married. Bob is just trying to do his usual trouble making act. That;s a Brighton guy for you.
He also tried to pick up a couple of 20 odd year old Southern Girls here in Winchester. While in Berryville a small town 8 miles from Winchester, there is a Italian Pizza Place called Marios. Best Pizza South of Kill Van Kull. While in there Fred started talking to this young lady, and her kids. She is originally from Ave 0 and W 8th in Bensonhurst. Right above the Sea Beach. Fred asked what the 4 year old girls name was. Get this Guys. BROOK LYNN. Don t you love it.
I can vouch for that. Honest. That was her name. But next you're goingto hear from Bob that I tried to scheme on two young waitresses in Winchester. Nothing to that at all, but I'm using a preemptive strike before Bob muddies up the works again.
Already did that earlier
I think we'll call this comedy act The Bob and Fred Show.:-)
I knew a girl in LA named Beverly Hills, but she lived in the Valley
Then there's always Robin Banks.:-)
This isn't a funny name, but I knew a Debbie Reynolds in high school. No relation to the actress AFAIK.
That's about as funny as the kid whose parents, the Hills, named him Bunker. Uh-oh, here we go again with the funny names.
Get this Guys. BROOK LYNN. Don t you love it.
Hmmm... was her last name Dodger by any chance?
nope, did not get the last name, the mom is Italian from Bensonhurst
Now THAT would have taken the cake.
No Bridge s would have
Then there's always Holly Wood.
He also tried to pick up a couple of 20 odd year old Southern Girls here in Winchester. While in Berryville a small town 8 miles from Winchester, there is a Italian Pizza Place called Marios. Best Pizza South of Kill Van Kull. While in there Fred started talking to this young lady, and her kids. She is originally from Ave 0 and W 8th in Bensonhurst. Right above the Sea Beach. Fred asked what the 4 year old girls name was. Get this Guys. BROOKE LYNN. Don t you love it.
Hell don't believe him. He wants to give the impression that I'm just a dirty old man. No way. I am a one woman man. I just happen to like ladies and enjoy getting in conversations with them. Trying to make up for my lost youth when I couldn't even carry on a conversation with the fair sex without stumbling and bumbling all over the place. And as Bob can tell you if he is honest with himself, I am just a friendly guy.
He is still a dirty old man, just read my other posts, but a great guy, for A Republican Met Reagan Fan
You forgot the Sea Beach part.:-)
There's a soda fountain out in Lyons, CO which sill has chocolate egg creams.
We have one in South Pasadena called the Fair Oaks Pharmacy. The owner is a Brooklyn native Steve Miller. But he's damn Yankee fan, just like that damn Brighton Express Bob. But their egg creams are out of sight and their phosphates are yummy as well. Enjoy it out there.
I could get one in a Brooklyn Deli in Harrisonburg Va, but having one on Kings Highway the place where I grew up was a mouth watering experience. Maybe I will move back to Brooklyn.
Did you tell Sea Beach Frd about the real Brighton Beach? To see some pictures of the real Brigton Beach check out this site European Transit Systems/UK/Preserved Railways/ Volks.
Simon
Swindon UK
He rode your Brighton Beach Line in 89. Also remember there is a Brighton Beach Line in Melbourne Australia also
Nice pictures, Simon!
Traveled the Volks Railway end to end and back while in Brighton in May, 1999.
Great views of both the sea and the buildings on the cliffs.
Not only are there railfan windows for rainy weather, but you can sit in front, right next to the driver!!
Also went thru the Brighton Pavilion, checked out the pier and walked the town before taking the train back to London.
A great day!
But the real Brighton is such a melancholy place! Since the Brits started going to Torremolimos and Benidorm for their summer vactions (holidays)–ie places that actually might have some sun, Victorian British resorts (Brighton, Blackpool, Scarborough…) have been slowly dropping to bits.
I would love to have seen Brighton in its hey-day around the turn of the last century: arriving from Waterloo on a steam train!
Somehow, in 2001, it’s just not the same.
John
Oh, and before you reply: this year’s horrid July hot spell was the exception that proved the rule!
John
Towns such as Brighton still attract millions of visitors a year, and with lottery funding of pier restorations etc., the "tide may be turning" da-da ! Nowerdays we can not only afford one or two foriegn holidays but a trip to the seaside as well. There is of cousre the famous topless beach.
If I may correct you,trains to Brighton from London have always left from Victoria or London Bridge and since Thameslink stations from Bedford as well.
Simon
Swindon UK
I beg your pardon. I lived North of the River, so the mess of what used to be Southern Region was (and is) still a complete mystery to me.
I drove when I went to Brighton.
The news about lottery money sprucing up the Seaside Resorts is good news.
John
It must be very daunting to the visitor. London Bridge Station (North side) in the rush hour is a battlefield with trains leaving, in what seems like a random fashion in both directions. The North side is I far more logical.
When the sun shines the whole world is a nice place when it rains....
Simon
Swindon UK
North is North and South is South–or at least until they opened Snow Hill! I used to take the Circle Line past Farringdon and see the tunnel mouth.
One of these days I’ll take a through train!
John
BTW: I completely understand the rain comment: As a Brit living in the US, every time it rains they say that “It’s like England, it’s raining!”
However, it’s not like that. Rain here is a relatively short, torrential affair. In Britain, it’s light drizzle that lasts for days…
Wow... you guys went on a ride... what do you usually do? Me... the last time i went.. (Far Rocaway) i fell asleep on the way back... but what was nice was I ran into a friend at Far Rockaway... *sigh* i fall asleep now...
Another Sea Beach man. Good show! Hell, Bob did most of the driving back from Coney Island to Wincehster, Virginia, while I sacked out. I just drove the last 50 or so miles. We had a blast in New York. You should have seen the stares we got with our subway shirts on. We even had a bunch of people ask us how to get those shirts. And the Cyclone? What a hoot. First car of course. And let her rip.`````````````````
Fred was so out of it, he passed out on the way home, after 2 hours he thought he slept 20 minutes, he miss all of New Jersey on I-78
Hey, Fred, did you get a Cyclones cap?
Know who's become a big Cyclones supporter? Mrs. Gil Hodges.
That is Brooklyn born Joan Lombardi. When I was a kid I even knew the names ofthe Brooklyn Dodger wives. And I especially liked Mrs. Hodges because she was a dago like me.
That she was. I wonder if she was related to Vince Lombardi, who was also from Brooklyn. As for Dodger wives, you had Dottie Reese, Beverly Snider, Rachel Robinson, Fern Furillo, Betty Erskine, and Ruthe Campanella. George Shuba didn't get married until after he had retired from baseball.
P. S. Have you ever heard of Lombardi's Pizza on Spring St. in Manhattan? My sister took me there a few years ago; their pizza is great.
Steve, that is Beverly Null, Fern Reichert, Rachel Ismin (sic), Betty Palmer, etc. I don't know Mrs Reese's maiden name, nor Ruth Campanella, who deserted her husband after his accident. Then there was Ralph Branca's wife, the former Anne Mulvey. And don't forget Gino Comoli's wife, the former Irene Zinn. How about that?
I just remembered Pee Wee's wife's maiden name. It was Dorothy Walton.
Grandma Walton I presume
What's up with the R142s this weekend? I haven't seen any. This is like the 3rd time this has happened in the past 4 weekends.
I can't be sure but it may be that most of the R-142 qualified operators are off on weekends. TA has been a little tardy with the classes.
Rode one today (Sunday) from Astor Place to Grand Central. They're out there.
This board is quite technical. Your rode on an R142A. Nobody said that these cars were sidelined. They were saying that the R142 cars (#2 line) were not running.
Well, excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me! Perhaps if the original poster had been more specific and said "Bombardier R-142s" or "the R-142s on the Number 2 Line..." An R-142A is still an R-142 in my mind -- a subset, if you will. It's a car delivered as part of the R-142 contract that just happened to have been built by Kawasaki as opposed to Bombardier. To those of us who don't have engineering degrees or access to the innards of the subway car, the two are barely distiguishable. (And yes, even so, I can tell them apart using the outwardly visible differences too.) Sheesh!
All T/O's and C/R's now must be qualified for the R142 in order to work on the No.2+6 Lines.
they have to take a test
T/O's have to take a 40 HR traning class at E 180 St or Westchester YD. C/R's only have an 8HR training couse.
40hr sounds well i guess in another 10 years ill be there
They found another safety defect on them. I was working on the No.2 line today .
but they were running on sunday. maybe it was on just one of them because they were running.
What it Sunday Night? I know they where in service today (Monday) so what ever problem it was had to be real minor.
not sunday night. sunday all day. it was problably only about 2 or 3 sets. remember that there is a schedule for the trains to run. so, maybe the rest of them were not running. i notice that a lot of the R-142A's on the 6 did not run on saturday and sunday. only about 5 ran last weekend. it is all in the scheduling of which equipment goes up to run.
maybe they wanted to give them a rest
exactly. because if there was a small problem, all of them would not be taken out of service. if it was a big problem then yes. but in this case it was scheduling of equipment. i know 6301-10 will go out this week for an exterior wash and interior cleaning along with 6411-20. those sets are dirty. 6331-40 got hit with graffitti the other day and was cleaned off but you can still see the shadow. 7250 got scratched windows and one of the new R-142A sets got pulled from service for harsh breaking. can't remember the number. i think it was 7451-60 something.
6411-20 is it back together yet theve been geting mileaged
no they are separated. one running with 6581-85 and the other with another set. they need a bath
whats up with the sparation of trains
They're staring to quarrel already.:-)
no i mean if youyou have 6511-6520 and 6601-6610 and you break them up like this configuration 6516-6520/6606-6610 in service why break them up
the separation comes from the new sets of 5 cars that come in one at a time and also, the split ups came around from the cars needing repair. its been happening on the 6 line also.
monday i got on 6606-6610-6516-6520 again
{ wooooppeeeee } !!! ..........lol !
Celebrate now, the barges are coming. Bye, Redbirds, bye!!
pollute the ocean repalce the good ol classics with styrofoam !!
you are willing to go down kicking i assume
"""" breakin on down already """ ...........lol !!
@ PLEASE NOTE !~! a los angeles editorial from KNX NEWS RADIO 1070 AM ON THE RADIO DIAL 24/7 news etc...
The MTA is trying to find a route into the digital world and one of its most important steps may be a fare card. For years,
bus drivers and train security have had to wait while passengers fumble for change or illegible fare passes, often leading to
delays, arguments and lost revenue for the transportation authority. It is estimated unpaid fares cost the MTA $5 million per
year.
On the table right now is an idea called a smart card. It would contain a computer chip which would activate a fare counter
on all MTA transit including buses and trains.
KNX believes the idea sounds promising.
.......??????????????????????????....................................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A passenger could walk on the train or bus and the card would automatically trip the fare counter. You wouldn't even have
to take it out of your wallet or purse. It would mean quicker boarding, less hassle for the bus and train operators and far
more convenience for the riders. The card would be loaded electronically with a certain amount of fares and when they ran
out, the card would deactivate. It is already being used as security devices in private industry, and at least four major cities
are using it on their transit systems.
@ COMMENT { hope they dont use the same system they use in atlanta !! } BUMMER !!
KNX urges the MTA to consider a pilot project with the smart cards. Put them into play for a year and see if they make a
difference and become popular with riders. It could be another way to make those bus and train rides a lot faster.
( I do not know folks if i like this ) ............................not,....... lol !!!!
Does anyone at radio station KNX use the MTA or is this just blather? The great majority of regular MTA riders use either weekly, semi-monthly, or monthly unlimited-ride flash passes. A bus rider flashes the pass upon boarding, the rail rider shows the pass to the sheriff or police officer upon request. It's a fast, cheap, and efficient system. How would this stored-value card be any improvement? I am unconvinced.
The value of a stored-value card is in sales to tourists and other visitors. If you're not going to use the system more than just a few days or a few times, a stored-value farecard is for you.
Ideally, in LA, these could be sold as a tourist value pack. For a certain price, you could get a convenient folding map of Hollywood, a transit map, discount coupons for Hollywood Bowl or the Getty Museum or La Brea Tar Pits or whatever, and an LAMTA transit fare card good for a day or for four round trips, etc.
Trouble is, tourists to LA will tend to just rent cars and ignore the transit system...
Word of advice...Do NOT waste your time with this racist pig.
Peace,
ANDEE
Word spreads quickly I see...Dave why did you delete my post?
Nevermind, got confused with the boards...
Word of advice...Do NOT waste your time with this racist pig.
I resent that. Don't insult me (and Piggo) by calling him a pig.
oops.
Thanks..............
Porcinius12
>>> Word of advice...Do NOT waste your time with this racist pig. <<<
I do not know if you were referring to George or Ron, but in either case your comment is way out of line.
Tom
Sorry for the mis-post I was not referring to George or Ron but to SA from LA.
Peace,
ANDEE
""Sorry for the mis-post I was not referring to George or Ron but to SA from LA""
Excuse me sir but do you have a question you would like to ask me ?? my e mail is posted here !!!!
@ & If it is off topic of the SUBTALK {http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk } forum then
at least fake like you are acting like a mature adult & or a man talk with me there ( off of this forum please )
& lets respect the webmaster & his hard work as to what mr david pirmann has done for all of us here on this
forum & keep this discussion free of personal attacks insults etc.. & remain ON TOPIC PLEASE !!!
anyway sir did i not meet you in person while i was shooting the "E" train ?? & why didnt you confront me
with you useless jive in person when you saw me and my wife riding & shooting video last time i was there ??
( the fall of 2000 ) Also why did you wait to throw your little useless political insult at me while you ran away
& was stepping off the "E" train when you had plenty of time to ask me any question you wanted to instead
of as it sems you are doing now hiding behind your computer launching your silly little insults at myself !!
life is too short guy ! .......... get a real life asap !! ....................lol !!!
"Sorry for the mis-post I was not referring to George or Ron but to SA from LA""
Excuse me sir but do you have a question you would like to ask me ?? my e mail is posted here !!!!
@ & If it is off topic of the SUBTALK {http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk } forum then
at least fake like you are acting like a mature adult & or a man talk with me there ( off of this forum please )
& lets respect the webmaster & his hard work as to what mr david pirmann has done for all of us here on this
forum & keep this discussion free of personal attacks insults etc.. & remain ON TOPIC PLEASE !!!
anyway sir did i not meet you in person while i was shooting the "E" train ?? & why didnt you confront me
with you useless jive in person when you saw me and my wife riding & shooting video last time i was there ??
( the fall of 2000 ) Also why did you wait to throw your little useless political insult at me while you ran away
& was stepping off the "E" train when you had plenty of time to ask me any question you wanted to instead
of as it seems you are doing now hiding behind your computer launching your silly assed little insults at myself !!
life is too short guy ! .......... get a real life asap !! ....................lol !!!
>>> The great majority of regular MTA riders use either weekly, semi-monthly, or monthly unlimited-ride flash passes. <<<
That is true, but the few who board buses (it is not applicable to trains since the fare is not collected on board) can use up an inordinate amount of time if they do not know what the fare is, and have not gotten the exact amount ready in advance. The solution may be too complicated for the problem.
Tom
I agree. I have the impression a tech company with a bright idea issued a press release promoting this idea to the gulllible media, in this case a talk radio station.
If the technology exists to read a stored-value card in your wallet or purse AND can alter its magnetic coding, what will happen when the inevitable hackers get hold of it. They could read my American Express Card and charge any amount on it. A heart patient boarding a bus might have his pacemaker turned off. I think a transaction with a transit rider should actively involve the rider.
As for tourists using the Los Angeles transit system, one-day and four-day unlimited passes would be a simple solution. Too simple perhaps, with no multi-million dollar tech contracts to be dispensed by the free-spending morons at Gateway Center (MTA management).
I agree. I have the impression a tech company with a bright idea issued a press release promoting this idea to the gulllible media, in this case a talk radio station.
I disagree, I was emailed by the Supervising Architect of the LA MTA less than a year ago. He wanted to know about MARTA's fare system, because they were considering using other ways of collecting fares to combat fare evasion. I had no idea about it, so I refered him to someone at MARTA.
I guess the honor system isn't working too well on the subway over there...Time to install fare gates?
>>> I guess the honor system isn't working too well on the subway over there. <<<
I doubt very much that it is the POP system on the rail lines that is the problem. Most likely it is people using phoney passes or altered passes on the buses. What they might want to use is a method which would allow the passenger to insert the card into a verification machine on the bus rather than relying on the driver's eyeball verification. This would give the added advantage of giving accurate ridership figures by route and time of day. If they do that for monthly passes, then they would incorporate into the system a way to store value on a card and subtract it with each use similar to the New York MetroCard, since it would probably not be cost effective to design a system to read monthly (or weekly or daily) passes without adding the ability to read stored value.
Tom
It would also allow the flexibility to switch from monthly passes to 30-day passes (not necessarily coinciding with the calendar month), as in New York.
If passbacks (out the window) are a problem, swiping or dipping would solve that, too.
Now that you mention that, I do recall RTD drivers in the early 1980's mentioning to me that it was not uncommon for some people to obtain books of stolen paper transfers and use them to ride.
rob from atlanta i do not want to see the type of card system you use there in atlanta on your buses. 1985-1988
I did like the system that nyc uses however. Having to hand reverse manual swipe a paper card while the bus
is in motion is a total drag & a bummer !!
Atlanta's present fare system SUCKS. We are going to get a new system within a few years that uses smart card technology. It should be way better.
you said & I agree with you again 100% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.............................................
"Atlanta's present fare system SUCKS. We are going to get a new system within a few years that uses smart card technology. It
should be way better." ................right on rob from atlanta ( i should be there to take pictures of marta this november 2001....
Again I could not agree with you better & especially the REVERSE MANUAL HAND PAPER MARTA TRANSCARD ( non system )
where even in the pouring down rain { @ and U know & so do I how it rains in atlanta } with bus riders being FORCED to wait
while each & every rider does the "" HAND JIVE THING"" trying to get some silly ased computer to read his / her marta transcard !!
whew !! .............................Man what a bitch having to go thru that bullshit every day !! I was sure glad when I moved away !!
woooooppppeeeee ( I did miss some of the nice people I knew when i lived in east point college park west end little five points etc..,
( thanks for getting me back up to speed as to whats goin on there in hot lanta ) is wsb & wgst still on the air there ? -talk radio-
Mr. George Foelschow I agree with your post 100% & where are the funds going to come from the LA MTA riders thats who !!
I was on the subway at the 23rd Street station for the 8th Ave lines (or one of the 23rd St stations) and saw a bathroom that was open and functioning! I thought this was long gone...anyone remember when every station had a bathroom, or when they were closed off?
Was it inside or outside fare control?
Coney Island, 34th Street-Herald Square, and Willets Point all have public restrooms inside fare control. (WP has large signs announcing that the restrooms are open 24 hours a day, but when I was there the doors were locked tight.) Does anyone know of others?
I think Jay St.-Borough Hall does (I saw a woman coming out of an entry that had a big "Women" mosaic beside it on Friday).
Seth
Roosevelt Ave.-Jackson Heights has (usually) open restrooms for both men and women on the mezzanie.
Dan
Does Wall St on the 4/5 have them? I always see MEN and WOMEN (or at least MEN) on the wooden doors near the middle of the station. I'm pretty sure that theyre bathrooms, but not sure if they're open. Could be Fulton if I'm wrong.
Unless it's changed recently, the ones at Wall Street aren't open... but they did nicely restore the signs when they renovated the station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it was inside fare control, near the edge of the platform. I'll check when I go back to the city.
There is a bathroom at church ave on the F line. Its near the church ave exit.
There's a nice underutilized bathroom up at 57th street on the 6th ave line. Ok, maybe it's not nice. But it's there.
i think there is one in the rockway park station also
As there are in many end of line stations.
And Far Rockaway.
It's clean too!
Where is it at Far Rockaway? Is it on the platform or is it down the stairs?
Down the stairs.
Why does that station not have an escalatrix?
the one in far rockaway had some nasty stuff in the sink went I went by there a few months ago.
All right, I’ll bite:
How do you tell a male escalator from a female escalatrix?
The world is dying to know
John
All mail is fee mail, there is no free mail.
Speaking of bathrooms, the one in Coney Island is still the shits. It smells to high heaven. The only things good about it was it was open. I hope they really revamp that one. Believe it or not, at one time it was a clean one.
I used my unlimited Metrocard to ride to Penn Station for a bathroom. My friend Mike asked me to check that there is toilet paper in there before I went, and I am glad he did say that because there were none in all of four bathrooms. I even checked the women's rooms -- no luck. Shows you how much better Amtrak is:
(1) Amtrak toilets has toilet paper.
(2) Amtrak toilets are clean at the beginning of the trip.
Lexcie
I used my unlimited Metrocard to ride to Penn Station for a bathroom. My friend Mike asked me to check that there is toilet paper in there before I went, and I am glad he did say that because there were none in all of four bathrooms. I even checked the women's rooms -- no luck.
And how, may I ask, did you manage to check the women's rooms?
And how, may I ask, did you manage to check the women's rooms?
They don't have a genital scanner at the entrance.
I would be a free male had it not been for my girlfriend... Being a free male sucks, which is why there aren't many.
The term is escalator, not escalatrix.
Maybe it's a REALLY kinky escalator. :)
You need to go to the mellowness store.
East 180th St. station has a men's room and a women's room. I haven't actually been inside, but I saw them open I think about a month ago. Yes, inside fare control.
East 180 bathrooms are for TA personnel only
> East 180 bathrooms are for TA personnel only
The one I am talking about - just inside the turnstiles, below the platforms - had no signs saying they were for TA personnel only.
I found three more today: 14th Street on the 1/2/3/9 (north mezzanine; only the men's room appeared to be open to the public), 95th Street on the R (avoid this one if you can help it -- one urinal didn't flush and there was a huge water bug under the sink), and Court Street on the M/N/R (near the closed bank windows; I only checked to see that it was open to the public so I can't comment on its condition).
Main St (7) and 36 St (MNRW) come to mind.
Why are there restrooms at two consecutive stops on the 7? I thought I was lucky to find the ones at Willets Point, but when I found them closed, I assumed there wouldn't be any others in Queens so went back to Grand Central, hoping to find something there. (I didn't, but I managed to talk an S/A into allowing me to run upstairs and to readmit me for free afterwards.) I knew about the ones at Stillwell and Far Rockaway but I thought they were both outside fare control, and, besides, they're both quite a distance from Willets Point.
My guess is Main St has them because it's a terminal (and recently renovated; I don't know if the bathrooms were open prior to the construction), and Willets Point Blvd has them because of the Mets, the US Open, and the park & ride lot.
I thought there was one at Main St-Flushing.
Wayne
Appropriately enough.
Add Union Square to the list. The two restrooms are on the mezzanine near where the L and 4/5/6 cross.
I spotted one at 168th Street (IND mezzanine -- where else?), but I couldn't tell if it was for men or for women -- there was no sign. I have a feeling it wasn't open to the public, although the door was wide open when I passed.
I actually found a new one last week on thursday on my way back from Coney Island in the Chambers St (A/C) station right when you come up from the stairs to where the turnstiles are, I visit this station all the time and just noticed it being there.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Which set of turnstiles? Near where the A/C, E, and 2/3 staircases all meet?
Have a look here!
John
In particular, here. Hey, I've been there!
At Urinal Dot Net we always strive for extreme accuracy in our captions, especially when it comes to those related to the New York City subway system, so I am asking for your assistance in verifying the caption for the photos mentionned above (www.urinal.net/subway)
Please do not hesitate to respond to this message if the caption needs to be updated in any way.
Thank you very much
Joe U. Rinator
Urinal Dot Net
www.urinal.net
Yes, where the 2/3, A/C/E turnstiles meet if you were to go down the stairs to the A/C/E look to the right and you will see them. Sorry for the late response.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
On the 2000-2004 capital program(in the yards category), it says that there will be a Flatbush ave extension to the LIRR ROW. I want to know is when construction will begin, how long it will take, what method will be used?
And how long will the layups tracks be in the ROW?
I wonder whether the layup tracks will run east or west from Nostrand.
I could have the fantasy the TA will make good or the IRT's blown opportunity to take over the Manhattan Beach branch in competition with the Brighton Line, but I guess that opportunity pretty muc disappeared in the late '50s and early '60s when the former MB right-of-way was built over.
Has anybody else thought that this thread was about Flatbush Avenue north of Fulton Street?
to be on topic, I though the LIRR would extend NW from Atlantic/Flatbush Terminal under Flatbush Avenue (Ext.) the Manhattan Bridge to the old H & M Hudson terminal (2 Trackways Possibily exist). but Flatbush Avenue Bewtween Atlantic Avenue And Decalb Avenue Has bewtween 5 To 9 Tracks (BRT & IRT) It would be a tight squeeze!
On A&E last night, the first half of "On the Inside" was about the
NYC subway system. Towards the end of the show the presenter, Joan
Lunden, visited the the room where all the money comes to be counted.
For security reasons they said they could not say where it was. They
also said that a lot of the money is delivered by the "money train"
but again "for security reasons" the MTA would not allow it to be
filmed. Is there really a money train? If so what does it look
like?
Hint: The place where the money is counted is next to a White Castle. Just look for a fleet of dual axles armored trucks idling outside.
Virginia Division - BMT
There is a Money Train. It's a yellow striped work car.
How do you know this?
Stop by you can see all the armored cars with offical plates and the colletion agents in bullet proff vests walking around. Also by a sack of sliders.
isnt this supposed to be kept a secret
Can't keep a dozen or so armored trucks lined up on the street in Downtown Brooklyn a secret for long.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll stop by if u tell me where it is... ;) ... just my luck, I'll be shot for being in the proximity...
I'll stop by if u tell me where it is... ;) ... just my luck, I'll be shot for being in the proximity... especially if you're carrying a gold chain and running in their general direction without a visible weapon.
Sorry, I forgot, that was a movie.
Duh,
Unless they have moved it (and there are Armored Collection Agencies that are empowered to count the cash and deposit it on behalf of their customers) I’m assuming that the money is counted at Jay St.
OTOH, if you want to see real money arriving and departing, go to the Federal Reserve on Maiden Lane, and take a look around the back.
If you want to see the gold itself, sign up for one of the tours.
Unfortunately, it’s not Hershey’s: no free sample program :-(
John
The train is two yellow cars, they are usually either R-21 or R-22 types. They have bars over the windows as one would expect. When I was a new motorman I had that assignment a few times. The cars have been refurbished, at least electrically and mechanically. Let me tell you. They can fly.
Will Redbirds replace them ?
The money trains, called 'collectors' will be replaced by a fleet of new armored trucks with GPS tracking built in.
Trucks? As in above ground, on-road, 4 wheel, trucks? Why?
Yes, now instead of a motorman and a few collection agents they will have a lot of new ARMORED CARS (Trucks) with 3 men crews. They already strated collecting from subway stations via armored car.
I guess this is all suppose to save money, that motorman salary?? (tic)
It keeps the trains moving late at night. I've been stuck on the E or F late at night waiting behind a money train. Still, I think it's a dumb idea that the revenue should leave the system and be transported by truck.
I just can't picture Robert Blake shouting, "Nobody f***s with my armored car!"
Absolutely correct. Keeping the road open is a big consideration. Of course, the oposite is also a factor. The collectors are constantly being shoved out of the way for 'road' trains. This leads to delays and overtime for collecting. Also: Last week, one of the collectors had a brake pipe rupture at about 3AM. While the train was moved out of the way and into a yard, the revenue agents had to sit on the disabled train for hours while a truck was dispatched to pick up the money. Trucks will give needed flexibility and efficiency - only the buffs will lose.
Dunno ... I'd think as bad as it can get on the railroad, the traffic jams up top can get worse ... but I'm sure somewhere in the building at Jay St, there's some wiglet going "vroom vroom" on his desk with Tonka trucks who's happier than Sallamallah at a chunk of plate glass. :)
I don't think it's one of the TA's best decisions. You just need to walk by Jay Street now & see all those trucks there. 3 men to a truck, traffic, etc. The job is going to cost a lot more.
In the middle of the night how many revenue trains were delayed because of the money train ? Me thinks something else is going on here, i.e. they plan to collect the money earlier so they can close down more station booths ????
Mr t__:^)
Go to my website!
Click on Rollingstock, then work cars, then Money Train.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Maybe NYC Transit should adopt it!
Maybe they could add quad-50 cal. firing front and rear, and side-mounted M-60's firing through window ports for protection from Wesley Snipes...
I meant adopt the movie version...
i think the one from the movie looks better
Heh. I can just see the director's assistants being walked out to the ex-IRT cars, being told "this is the money train" and both of them cramming their fingers down their throats at the thought of using those in preps for the film. And CLEARLY some MTA execs had "armour envy" when they saw what Hollywood built and decided that big stainless armored trucks were the way to go ... sheesh. Brinks envy.
The one from the movie can do wonderful things: like jump from line to line without any apparent rhyme or reason. It can also knock down scores of the support beams and yet the roof doesn’t fall in.
No wonder the MTA is envious!
Do they not bring the money to the Special Platform past Court St. on the N/R? Isnt it supposed to be right above 370 Jay St.?
Don't you mean below 370 Jay, there has not been a El thru there since the Days of the BRT Brooklyn Bridge/Fulton/Myrtle Lines.
right exactly, it was too late in the night when I was posting that, I meant ofcourse 370 Jay st. is right above
Is this plkatform on a spur track, or is it on the N/R line itself, meaning passenger trains pass it (and one could theoretically photograph it from the train if one were alert enough)??
Yes, don't try headin out there by foot though, *bad experience*
Is this plkatform on a spur track, or is it on the N/R line itself, meaning passenger trains pass it (and one could theoretically photograph it from the train if one were alert enough)??
Actually there are three platforms for the collectors, one for each division. They are nothing special to look at--just simply roll-up steel doors and a lip approximately 10-15 feet wide at platform level. One could easily think they were some sort of maintenance room when seeing them. They are not really "stations" in the true sense of the word--they just look like a closed storefront :-)
The BMT door can be seen from a passing train just compass-west of the crossover near Lawrence St., on the Manhattan-bound side.
The IND's is the easiest to spot--it's right inside the Jay St. Boro Hall IND station, on the side wall of the brooklyn-bound F track.
The IRT's collector platform is visible if you are standing at the end of the Brooklyn-bound 4/5 platform at Borough Hall, looking into the tunnel to where the 2/3 trains turn into their Borough Hall stop. The door is right before the curve.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
The IND's is the easiest to spot--it's right inside the Jay St. Boro Hall IND station, on the side wall of the brooklyn-bound F track.
I knew I had a picture of it somewhere.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Three locations:
BMT: Between Lawrence and Court on the M,N,R trains.
IND: Jay St Station (S/B F train)
IRT: Right before Boro Hall on the N/B 2,3 trains.
If memory serves me correctly, when that movie came out in 1995, the TA even denied to the media that it had money trains.
A reporter for the Post staked out the system late at night and snapped a pic.
I saw a money train on the Flushing Line, westbound at 61st Street in June, around 1 PM- it just rumbled right through the station (local track)without stopping.
i saw one doing about 54 once i think
The family and I were in the city over the weekend. A store called "Weat Seal" on Broadway (Bond St?)near NYU has a R17 and R21 front only as part of their store fixture. Was this reported before?
"The family and I were in the city over the weekend. A store called "Weat Seal" on Broadway (Bond St?)near NYU has a R17 and R21 front only as part of their store fixture. Was this reported before?"
Yes it has, Wet Seal used to be Reebok Station. Back then they let me photograph the car fronts. I don't know if current managment will extend the same courtesy.
Bill "Newkirk"
I've heard from a few independent sources that there's an R-1 or R-9 in either a deli or a K-mart on Staten Island. Does anyone out there know about this, or can put it rest as a vicious rumor :)?
Golden's Deli on Richmond Ave on Staten Island. Go there to see the car, but the food is horrid. Don't order anything other than a hot dog.
-Hank
Rode the new stock on the 7th Ave Express and the Lex Local over the ERA meeting weekend. Very nice. I just hope the MTA can keep them looking that good for a long time and the people who paid their fare respect the upgrade of their ride.
Virginia Division - BMT
On the show "Wild On New York" on the E! channel, there's a segment about 50 minutes into the show where they talk about Nathan's at Coney Island. Guess who's in the backgound ordering their food? Me, on my trip a year ago to NYC. I'm wearing a blue striped shirt. The narrator talks about "eating like New Yorkers," while showing another clip of my Atlanta ass eating my hot dog with my friends. Check the listings to see when the show reruns again if you wanna see my TV debut.
Kudos, Rob!
I hate to use your moments of fame as a jumping off point for a complaint, but even New Yorkers can't eat like New Yorkers at Nathan's anymore, IMO.
I've been to Nathan's twice this year. In March I went in there with the hope of getting some of their strange but addictive hot clam broth on an increasingly chilly day. All the side counters were closed ... no sea food no clam broth. What's more, no deli sandwiches either. Just the same stuff, hot dogs, burgers, fries, drinks I can get at my Nathan's franchise in Deer Park, LI.
OK, so maybe in the winter they let their tradition slide a bit.
But I was there on July 19. Instead of seeing the entire counter open and packed, buyers were huddled around a handful of open cash registers. Instead of the long grills brimming with hot dogs or hamburgers being hawked to three-deep crowds, the server took the order on a register than went back to the typical fast-food service area to put together the order before serving the next in line.
If I want a McDonald's experience, I'll go to McDonald's (duh). Plus Mickey D is more efficient.
Does anybody know where the emergency exits for the 53rd and 60th street subway tubes are on Roosevelt Island?
Is it safe to walk around Roosevelt island or is it a ghostown?
Are you joking? You should get around more often...
Roosevelt Island, once called Welfare Island, was famous for being the site of the last tuberculosis asylum in the city (and I believe in the US). It is home to thousands of people, and the newest upscale yuppified housing developments (lots of eligible singles, if you get my drift, lots of pets) were planned and built to coincide with the opening of the subway station - similar to what builders in Jersey City did right next to PATH's Pavonia station. At my last visit there, there was a free shuttle van which took you from the beautiful subway station around the island.
Some of it is quite picturesque. And you have East River views on both sides, not to mention the Manhattan skyline. I don't know what's happened to the asylum (if it is open for tourists etc.)
Take the subway there, tour around with camera, and treat yourself to the sky tram back ($1.50 fare).
Post your pictures on this web site. Maybe Dave Pirmann would like some shots of the sky tram for nycsubway.org...
<< Are you joking? You should get around more often... >>
If there are no Asian women around, he doesn't get there
welll...
He can have the ugly asian chicks...
asian men like myself don't want them. he's free to have them.
but if he so much as touch the cute chicks...
hehehehe
What's with RonInBayside and azn chicks? BTW... is there something wrong with me if i'm asian and prefer caucasians? :)
Nothing. I like 'em all (women that is). I was just poking fun at Qtrain...
There's nothing wrong with being any race and liking a lady of any other race. Beautiful women come in all colors.
Nup..
We go by Double Standards...
its ok for us asians to go after Caucasian chicks...
It ain't ok if our women go after Caucasian guys.. :-)))
Well if asian women fall for white guys because they are tall that is stupid. Race and height shouldn't matter it's what's inside that matters most. If I had extra cash to throw around I'd make a bet most women 5'3 and under (around my height) look for guys near 6' and over, yeah that sure looks ridiculous.
This hopefully though isn't the concensus at the Canal, Grand, or 8th ave stations. It better not be!
And those R62 windows only tall guys can reach that little box looking out through the cab. Sure sucks when I'm riding the 4 and 6 lines.
Haha... I get what you mean about the box thing... took me a while, but I finally got it :) Get a redbird... :) I do know a azn friend though who has a russian bf and she's MAD short like 5' and he's like 5'10. Funny funny funny...
Yeah I better get those Redbirds while I can, and enjoy the IRT from a railfan window while I still can!
BTW..
I prefer Greek, Northern Indian read: Kashmiri/Punjabi, Afghan, Iranian Chicks.
BUT..if I find a cute asian chick yes I'll go for her too.
who cares, can we stop with the personal women preferences and/or fetishes. We already have one John Qtraindash, he is enough to brighten this board, another one is unoriginal, in this midst of train buffs, MTA employees, foreigners, Nostalgia Whores, vandals, and Urban explorers who come to this board, each has a role as if this whole "Subtalk" affair was some Soap Opera if you will. everyone has a character, a unique and distinct character which makes this whole subway $h1T more interesting.
Yeah I'm gonna shut about dating now unless it has to do with trains. When we start talking stuff like crime and women things get outta hand. I've said enough, I'll try to keep the dragon clips hidden from view. Please no eating, drinking, or making out on LI Bus. We thank you for your cooperation.
We have alot of Iranian women here in Northern Nassau, but they seem to be very into the money, a big turn-off for me. It's either money or tall guys I just can't win. As Rodney Dangerfield would say
"I just can't get no respect!"
well I'm just AT 6 feet.
Know how ya feel Q... I can't afford one...
What's with RonInBayside and azn chicks? BTW... is there something wrong with me if i'm asian and prefer caucasians? :)
It's not Ron in Bayside, but Qtraindash 7 who's got a jones for Asian women ... or, as he put it, mystical girls.
At my last visit there, there was a free shuttle van which took you from the beautiful subway station around the island.
It's a bus and it costs 25¢
Some of it is quite picturesque. And you have East River views on both sides, not to mention the Manhattan skyline. I don't know what's happened to the asylum (if it is open for tourists etc.)
Any tuberculosis asylums are long gone. The only old hospital buildings still standing are all closed.
Yes, the hospitals have been closed for some time. They are of historic significance, and I wqonder if there is any interest in restoring one as an exhibit.
Sounds like some of the abandoned insane asylums in New Jersey; Overbrook in Cedar Grove in particular, is a major one.
Also Rockland Psych. Center has some boarded-up buildings (been thru there on Red & Tan #20 bus).
I shudder to think what once went on inside these buildings in the stone age of psychiatric treatment.
as mentioned elsewhere in this thread: strecker is getting a cosmetic restore though it's a vent for the 53rd. st. tube... renwick will probably be bulldozed by some capitalist pigs because it's on prime real estate. history seems to be something best bulldozed in this town, for some odd reason. we can't even save a single 10, 11 car set of redbirds for shit sake...
why Joe, just a couple of years ago.......
hehehe!
just a couple o' years ago, it was a whole other world...
Damn, now I feel stupid for missing the fun on Saturday, and all the fun through September...
the smallpox hospital is still there at the south tip. it's actually lit up at night and quite visiable when driving up the FDR.
there's also the strecker lab building, which is now an MTA vent, beyond the wall of southpoint. on the north end of the island there's am octagon shaped old hosptial they are suppose to restore a bit...
The Octagon building was the insane asylum discussed, until it moved to Ward's Island in 1895. It then became Metropolitan Hospital which moved to East Harlem I don't know when.
Any tuberculosis asylums are long gone. The only old hospital buildings still standing are all closed.
Bird Coler and Goldwater Memorial hospitals still remain. I believe they're more like nursing homes than regular hospitals.
Well I don't have a camera.
But it sounds nice, so I'll visit whenever this gloomy weather cleares up. You can't tell it's that yuppified when riding through the Roosevelt Island subway station it's empty most of the time.
You usually can't tell much about a neighborhood's buildings and skyline from an underground subway station.
You could always just stay home and hide under the bed. That way you never have to worry about bad neighborhoods, unfamiliar people, non-Asian women...
Well I did one go and walk around outside fare control in Roosevelt Island outside the entrance a few years back. Nothing but apartment buildings, reminded me a little bit of Co-op city.
According to the Yahoo yellow pages there is little to do on Roosevelt Island, there are only four places to get a bite (even Sea Cliff has more even though it's kinda high priced), no major drugstore or supermarket, not even fast food.
No music or bookstores either. Sounds like Roosevelt Island is a pretty isolated place, kinda like an "urban" Sea Cliff. :-0
A lot of it has only recently been developed.
Forget the Yahoo Yellow Pages. Look at the appropriate Verizon book and more importantly, walk around and see it for yourself.
Or hide under the bed...
Doesn't Yahoo get their listings from the Verizon yellow pages? Usually something that is listed in the yellow pages is listed in Yahoo, that has been the case when I was looking at used CD stores in Manhattan.
I'll take your word for it.
Doesn't Yahoo get their listings from the Verizon yellow pages?
No, they do not. There are some co-marketing arrangements but Yahoo and Verizon do not have one covering the New York area. While I do happen to know their list of sources, I am not at liberty to disclose it, as it is their proprietary information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does Verizon have listings online? Or do I have to get a phone book?
Yes, they do... business ones at least... at verizon.com of course.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I felt the island had a European feel to it. Some very nice views.
Blah Blah Blah, you subtalker railfanning folk know nuthin, the old hospital is Renwick Hospital, Ventured there many a time, the way around the big Metal MTA fence is a secret, The emergency exit to the 53rd street tube is behind this fence towards renwick hospital, they are building a new ventilation system in one of the old buildings there, right by it, next to the trail which leads to the ruins of renwick is the 53rd street emergency exit, Yours truly has wandered there many a time, Hey playland remember the Viet Cong-type exits we had to make due to authoritaaayes, and Joe remember the staring security guard? Boy oh Boy
I just wish i was there for that original viet cong depature.
It's a lovely place to visit behind that there wall, so long as you're in a 'commando' mindset. kinda like being in a video game...
You are truly a brave soul. Can you get Qtrain out from under his bed?
Boy oh Boy, QTrain, he just needs one time venturing and he'll forget all his troublesome, cautious, boring ways, Ain't nothing like a good Viet-Cong Style renwick exit via nautical to cure what ails ya. I dont know if its bravery or utter stupidity, but I know one thing, its the curiosity that keeps me going.
"This is a D Train to 205, Making all different stops" Heard on a GOed D train on the 8th ave Lines during Saturdays re-routing,
I like to think that its part mental ilness, part childish need to run around like Indiana Jones. Now where's my fedora?
A)60th street tube: not sure
B)exits for 53rd street are behind the wall at "southpoint" southpoint has been off limits to civilians since the early 1980s, and is entumbed behind a metal, bare wired wall.
The MTA is currently retrofitting a building from the old city hospital complex (the last one left - strecker lab) into a vent building for the tube. The only other building on the southern tip of the island is the old "renwick ruin" aka smallpox hospital - which is an old, castle-like shell. Hopefully it'll stay that way. every so often a developer comes along with a lame plan to make it into a hotel, convention hall, etc - pretty much paving over the history of the location (where thousands of people died).
*ahem*
that said, the only way to see the subway exits, strecker lab, or renwick is the 4th of july, when it is opened for the fireworks show at a price of $10 admission.
Or, you might politely ask Seven about the "nautical" method of entry beyond the wall. I myself prefer a land based assault, but hey... either way it's a war zone out there... be on guard for the nypd vans while you're at it...
Somehow I wouldn't be suprised the subway exit is in a "restricted" zone, with terrorism and all.
I wonder if U.Thant island is also off limits to visitors, since it is a product of the Steinway tube construction, there's no access to the tunnel there I presume.
WEll since I am a law abiding citizen I am not going to break the law to see the exit. Hopefully 60th street has one in a more accessible area.
Terrorism is probably NOT the reason its blocked off, It is so because they are installing the vent system, don't get too paranoid John, its aallll coool.
I forget the reason they sealed that end of the island - it was likely due to the fact that all that was down there were 2 abandoned hospitals, and it was the 1980s. if it wasn't sealed, people would ahve been selling mad streetside pharmaciticals from them buildings, if you get my drift.
I wonder if U.Thant island is also off limits to visitors, since it is a product of the Steinway tube construction, there's no access to the tunnel there I presume
It's probably not officially off-limits, just inaccessible except by boat. And there's no tunnel access.
It is considered a Public Park
Since 60th St. is just north of the Bridge, you should look for the exit just north of the Bridge, smack in the center of the island (which is pretty narrow).
I actually walked up the 60th St. tunnel emergency exit to Roosevelt (then Welfare) Island on Nov. 9, 1965. My T West End train to Astoria was stranded in the tunnel at 5:24 p.m. during the great 1965 blackout. After finally deciding to evacuate the train (after waiting 2 hrs.), all 1000 or so of us were walked through to the head car, out onto the catwalk to the center of the tunnel, and up the steps. Since the power was out, we had the walk up the 153 steps (I counted!) by the light of 2 flashlights, each led by a TA employee, one at the top and one at the bottom. Some older folks elected to stay on the train. They got home the next morning!
That sounds like a scary situation. Well I guess it could've been worse, you could've been stuck in the dirty narrow Steinway tubes, and there's no emergency exits mid-tube because the tunnel does not go under Roosevelt island so people would have to walk to either the Manhattan or Queens exits, which ever would be closer. (why didn't they put an exit on U.Thant for the Steinway tubes?)
Some of the under-river tubes like Montague and Jorelemon are pretty long and would take a long time to walk out of. Well Jorelemon has nice bright flourescent tube lighting, but it there's a blackout they'd probably go out too. Is there any emergency lighting in subway tunnels when there's a power failure?
do you have any idea how small thant is, there aint nothing there but a bending tree, trust me i've seen it close up, from the "inacessable" southernmost point on Roosevelt Island
Yeah I guess it's pretty small then, though in the old (and I mean old picture) I saw of it on a website it looked big enough for a small shelter and dock, for boats to rescue people from the tunnel. Now I'm just a worry wart! :-0
Take it easy man, Join Me, Joe, and PLayland and many others (sorry no Asian Mystics) on our Urban Exploration tours, you'll learn more aaabout NY then any book or any subtalk. we are all adults and we handle ourself with caution, take this as a personal invite, Im trying to do society a favor, I need a good gesture once in a while.
Sidewalk act! You're going to take the boy STRAIGHT to Van Sicklen, aren't you? Heh. Only mystical thing hanging there is Sister Cleo, who be fronting it on Main street. :O)
Excuse me excuse me My name Is Mrs. Buchanan, and I live right there at 85 Crown Street, and I am going to give you the DARKer perspective. I thank god I thank god I thank go..........hellll never mind, yea van siclen is right about fun
when are we going exploring it?
DUUUHHHHHHH Whenever you coming down. Im expecting you October, we all are. I'll see you in a week
There has been a deadly stabbing outside the 42nd street-Times Square station. It happened at 12:30am. Sure makes you think twice about hanging out in the city at night.
Personally even though crime rates are reported as down I think any place in New York City is not that safe a place to be after 10 o'clock at night.
Unless there are Asian women around, right Qtrain? Then it's OK :0)
I dun get it... (yet again)
I work in the area and sometimes I leave there very late, one time 3:00am yow! In heavily populated junctions like Times Sq and Grand Central, generally it's pretty safe if you watch yourself.
At nights, there will still be a sizable crowd walking about from nearby theaters, restaurants, xxx video stores, etc.
Times Sq is not just "any place". You should feel safe there.
I think that this stabbing may yet be a portent of the future, depending on who succeeds Rudy Giuliani as Mayor.
yes. once fooliani is gone, the city will crumble.
right.
btw: i have a bridge for sale: any takers?
"Apres moi, le deluge"?
here we go, Hey if you WANT to get robed and mugged and assulted you probably will in ANY neighborhood, making a statement like "its not safe after 10 o clock anywhere in NY" is completely ridiculous
I regularly wait for a Metro-North train at 125th Street that arrives at 10:02 PM. If I get out of work late, I'm up there waiting for the 11:10. Do I feel threatened or unsafe? Absolutely not. These things happen sometimes, unfortunately. How do you know it wasn't someone getting ripped off that retaliated? Beware and be aware, and you have no problems. Hey, its been working for me for almost 41 years.
hey Qdash, thats BIG BAD HARLEM he's talking about
Well my mother always told me to get out of NYC by 10pm. Generally alot of people "out here" on LI feel that way, at least the ones I've spoken to. So I guess it's what you're used to, and that has affected me somewhat.
Places like Times Square are fairly crowded even at night I guess. It's when it's empty that it is most dangerous. Are most parts of Manhattan busy late at night?
In Queens and Brooklyn is gets pretty quiet after dark, even in Flushing. Some have said the 7 train is pretty crowded even late at night. I wonder why Flushing isn't that crowded (are most people off of the train then?). What is Chinatown like at 11pm?
What is Chinatown like at 11pm?
Full of mystical Asian whores.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well my mother always told me to get out of NYC by 10pm.
What do you think the 8 million who live in NYC do, sleep in Yonkers?
Places like Times Square are fairly crowded even at night I guess. It's when it's empty that it is most dangerous. Are most parts of Manhattan busy late at night?
It's the city that never sleeps, remember?
Most of Manhattan isn't as busy as Times Square late at night. Manhattan doesn't end at 59th Street, and most of it to the north is residential. But just about any residential neighborhood in the city is busier than Sea Cliff. At 10:00, the evening is only beginning.
So Midtown (Times Square, the 42nd street corridor) truly never sleeps. TSQ seems pretty busy all the time, however Grand Central isn't too busy on weekends, except during the summer and holiday season.
Yes. NYC is completely not at all safe, at any hour. We will perform acts of violence and besmirchment upon you that will make you run crying to your mum - so stay away. go home. don't take a vacation here - got it?
*&%#$* tourists. less tourists=more seats on the subway, and sidewalk to actually walk on...
hell yes, why just a few years ago....there was but a few a foreign walking the street, eh joe?
According to some radio news reports the victim was was wearing a $3,000 gold chain. The gold chain part I believe. I wouldn't know if it was worth that much.
Anyway, it is typical of young people today to try to show status by wearing/flashing what appears to be expensive jewelry. They are inviting trouble (but you can't tell them anything anyway). In this case as in many others it was fatal. For years the TA has been telling people to keep jewelry hidden especially during the summer.
I have been in that area at that hour on occasion have not never had or seen any problems. At anytime - if you present a tempting target - you will become a victim. My advice - even if you are totally lost, look like you know where you are and what you are doing (and don't wear good looking jewelry that will show).
...it is typical of young people today... (but you can't tell them anything anyway).
You may get some complaints about the flagrant ageism in your post once the indolent young subtalkers wake up and get online.
BTW, I'm old and you can't tell me anything, either. :)
Ain't it neat how ageism on BOTH ends is so completely out of hand? (who ME?) :)
According to some radio news reports the victim was was wearing a $3,000 gold chain. The gold chain part I believe. I wouldn't know if it was worth that much.
Anyway, it is typical of young people today to try to show status by wearing/flashing what appears to be expensive jewelry. They are inviting trouble (but you can't tell them anything anyway). In this case as in many others it was fatal. For years the TA has been telling people to keep jewelry hidden especially during the summer.
At the risk of stereotyping a bit, the fact that the victim was wearing a $3,000 chain (if indeed that was the case) may tend to indicate that he was involved in various unsavory activities and consequently that the incident was something other than a robbery gone awry. Again, I don't know for sure, but it's something to consider.
One of the newspapers speculated he might have been a gang member but who knows.
It shouldn't have happened. When will people learn?
Well walking around with expensive jewlery is definately an invitation for crime, that goes ANYWHERE. You're right, like many young people today they flaunt their looks and jewlery. For some reason the media doesn't mention anything that it was unsafe to wear that kind of stuff, because media pushes materialism.
I'm often suprised what people will walk around the subways with. Women will often wear very expensive clothing and lots of jewlery, especially those that ride the Lex ave line.
Stuff like expensive jewlery should not be worn on the subway, and palm pilots/cell phones/portable electronics should be kept in bags, pockets and out of sight.
It's no suprise this guy got attacked, with all that expensive stuff on. The media of course thinks the victim never has any fault whatsoever. And these occasional attacks on women, often happen to upscale types who makes a bum's appitite for money and sex grow wild.
The women who ride the 4,5,6 around Grand Central are amazingly fancy, and wear whatever makes them think they're #1. whether it's a $1000 dress, gold jewlery, or a tall guy around their arm.
News reports on the stabbing seem a bit confusing. According to the Daily News Express, the victim was a member of the Crips, which would make the crime seem non-random - but it's also been established that the suspect is an ex-con with a long rap sheet, something that might suggest an ordinary random robbery.
What would be funny in a way is if the suspect indeed committed a regular robbery, but happened to choose a victim that turned out to be a Crip. If that's the case, the suspect is not likely to get too cordial a welcome at Riker's Island :-)
What would be funny in a way is if the suspect indeed committed a regular robbery, but happened to choose a victim that turned out to be a Crip. If that's the case, the suspect is not likely to get too cordial a welcome at Riker's Island :-)
Heh. That would be similar to the case not too long ago where some guy snatched the purse of an elderly lady walking the street. The purse-snatcher was apprehended and arrested. As it turned out, the old lady happened to be the mother of one of the biggest mafia bosses in New York. It is reported that upon hearing this, the purse-snatcher sort of turned pale and slid down into the backseat of the squad car.
-- David
Chicago, IL
If the right ones find out about him, he will be in for a very bad time, and he will scream to the officers to get into protective custody. That is also known as punk city. When he gets upstate, there is no P.C., so he will have to make it somehow. Act in haste, repent at leisure.
"palm pilots/cell phones/portable electronics should be kept in bags, pockets and out of sight."
I don't know about you, and personally I like to read and do the crossword puzzle when I'm on a train, but apparently lots of people like to get WORK done when they're on the train. It's sort of hard to use a palm pilot or computer that's hidden away in a bag!
[Personally even though crime rates are reported as down I think any place in New York City is not that safe a place to be after 10 o'clock at night.]
Apparently, you don't get out much.
BTW, it's not like there's a stabbing spree going on in Times Square. You make it sound like 'Dodge City' or something.
One stabbing between two individuals does not make a place 'unsafe'. Was it random violence, or did the two know each other? Those are some critieria to consider before you go off and condemn an entire city as being 'unsafe'.
BMTman
I agree with this post.
And out of what ... 6 million? 7 million people? ONE?!?! Hell, Smallbany's got less than 100,000 people and we average a shooting every few days ... Manhattan's a LOT safer than the sticks, bro ...
I many parts of Bufallo rival places like ENY and Brownsville when it comes to crime.
Dunno ... I felt safer in ENY and Ocean Hill than I do in most malls. :)
AMEN AMEN AMEN, there is someone with reason, as crazy as me, but with reason, Hell, when im going upstate you gonna teach me how to steal a train "ye Olde Schoole Style"
Heh. For some reaon I can't fathom, they no longer park them with the motor running on the siding at the edge of the property anymore. :(
And you DON'T steal trains, you BORROW them. As long as they don't leave the rails, they ain't stolen. Heh. The rules of engagment were spelled out in a movie called "End of the Line" ... saw it on teevee. Must be true. (grin)
hell yes, I like that rule yes sir I do.
Only words of advice - if the public defender spouts that rule, run like hell. Heh.
Did you ride on the metrorail line while you were in Buffalo? Any particular thoughts about it?
-Robert King
I was never in Bufallo. I've only heard from others about the decay there. What is Metrolink like?
[I was never in Bufallo.]
Well, that speaks volumes...
So you feel you have the right to make disparaging comments about someplace you've never been?
That's what they do in China! (and Russia too)
|^^^^^^^|
Hell, I was caught in the cross-fire between two warring gangs in Brooklyn the other day while passing through Prospect Park.
Both sides had muskets and they were firing at each other unrelentingly. One group was dubbed 'The redcoats' and the other 'the blue coats'.
Sadly, the body count was highest on the side of the guys wearing blue.
Man, that was some serious gunplay! ;-D
BMTman
The Revolutionary War buff (oops, mean "war between the states") boys or was this Homey the Clown's kids? Up here, you gotta watch what you wear as well in some places.
Nothing I enjoy more than when gunplay breaks out somewhere, the cops show up to take you out of your nice brick-walled building to squat behind a tin metal police car like somehow you're safer out there. :)
Red? Blue? Bloods and Crips my man, "gangsta" style
Dang! I was hoping it was one of them repolusionary war ensembles. Well, there's that kinda action up here too in Troy, Schenectady and Smallbany ... kids from the city come up here thinking there's turf to be had. Heh. They go back on the last bus outta town. I always get a kick out of people that think whuzzup in the city is unique. But yeah, gotta watch what you wear up here too ...
There was a Revolutionary War reenactment over the weekend...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, Kev, it was only just some Revoluntionary War 'boyz in the hood' gun play.
There were some local guys in full regalia doing the re-enactments, but alot of the extras were bussed in from Colonial Williamsburg.
It's really rare to see somebody wearing nickers, stockings and George Washington wigs on the streets of NY in the year 2001 (except maybe the East Village...;-)
BMTman
Yeah, Kev, it was only just some Revoluntionary War 'boyz in the hood' gun play.
There were some local guys in full regalia doing the re-enactments, but alot of the extras were bussed in from Colonial Williamsburg.
At least they weren't Civil War re-enactors. Not to be disparaging or anything, but some of the Civil War guys get a little, well, overenthusiastic when it comes to their hobby. How overenthusiastic? One example should suffice. Medical records show that the average Civil War soldier weighed about 130 pounds, obviously much less than the average adult male today. To be really authentic, some re-enactors deliberately become anorexic in order to get their weights down to those levels. Now that's enthusiasm!
I saw a documentary on the Civil War re-enactors and some of those guys even go so far as to copy the same diet as the soldiers of the time. An example of what some of the troops ate out in the woods were cats and squirrels.
BMTman
I saw a documentary on the Civil War re-enactors and some of those guys even go so far as to copy the same diet as the soldiers of the time. An example of what some of the troops ate out in the woods were cats and squirrels.
Makes even the most fanatical railfan look quite mild by comparison ...
You mean Kansas Fried Chicken has gone out of business? Tad's Steaks? Nedicks? Chock Full O Nuts? They sold cat&squirrel too ...
If they ate squirrels and cats and such, then fanatic railfans gotta eat what railroad workers eat, so what do engineers, Train Operators, conductors, and the like eat?
As Ren of "Ren and Stimpy" fame once said, "Squeak. I say SQUEAK, man!"
no not my mousy friends, Thats why Im no railfan, only partially.
You would have loved "Yankee Frankee," the original subway dog ...
Heh. Some stereotypes die hard ya know. :)
I take it nobody warned those guys that the wearing of the red and blue wasn't necessarily such a great idea. Nah, sit back and watch the fun. Hopefully they were too busy packing muskets to be making hand gestures. Heh.
I just think more crime happens after 10pm when not as many people are out. I guess as long as an area is fairly busy it should be OK at night, and Times Square is pretty busy.
A helluva lot of people are out in the city after 10
I just think more crime happens after 10pm when not as many people are out. I guess as long as an area is fairly busy it should be OK at night, and Times Square is pretty busy.
Most crime occurs behind closed doors, among acquaintances and not necessarily at night.
Why don't you keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about? Don't be like Railfan Putz.
I'm surprised it happened in that area. You have to be careful. I usually am a lot more cautious in stations at night than in trains. I also carry mace. It's legal in NY now, so why not have it?
Better yet, just let EVERYONE be armed. You never heard of personal armed robberies in the Wild West did you? No. Because EVERYONE was armed. All that were robbed were big banks. Oh, and trains were robbed, too. So, maybe it's not such a good idea. :(
I hope the new Mayor has Rudy's toughness on crime standards, but NOT Rudy's "kiss the ass of crooked, drunk cops" standards.
You have to be careful everywhere, even in the burbs. Actually sometimes when the drunks are out (we have alot of bars in Sea Cliff) I feel more unsafe than in NYC at night.
There is an article in the Daily News about a proposal by a small group of people about the Rockaways seceding from the city and forming a "Rockaway City".
Hopefully it won't get too far, but if this far out proposal actually happened, what would happen to the bus and subway routes in the area? Currently no NYC subway line operates outside of the 5 boroughs.
Easy - they'll start the extra fare again ;-)
Nah, that's too easy!
Reconnect the LIRR near Mott Avenue. Then remove the bridge just south of Broad Channel.
Let them suffer through riding the LIRR all the way around through Valley Stream.....
remove the bridge north of broad channel. if they need to get to mainland they can have one of their race-baiting parades.
Let them make a left turn on red from a two-way street while they're at it.
That's already allowed (in at least some locations) in Broad Channel.
Why do you think I mentioned it then?
Figuring out what to do with the Rockaway subway would be the least of their problems.
For example, what are they going to do for a tax base?
Find an Indian tribe to adopt;
Given them that desolate area east of Hammel's Y;
Build a casino (Hey, it worked it Connecticut and upstate in Oneida, didn't it?)
You can't form a new city in New York State without the ascent of the state and (IIRC) if the new city is carved out of an existing city, the existing city must also consent.
Although (contradicting myself) I believe (also going by memory) that the State Legislature could carve a piece out of NYC because of the way that "Greater New York" was formed in the first place. This was where Staten Island pinned its hopes before Giuiliani's election stopped (or at least postponed) its secession push.
You'd better believe NYC is not going to let the Rockaways go unless it's a net gain for them.
I can't imagine that the city makes more in Rockaway taxes than it spends on Rockaway services.
I can't imagine that the city makes more in Rockaway taxes than it spends on Rockaway services.
No, but the City would not let the Rockaways go if it thought that a CIty of the Rockaways would have casino gambling on NYC's doorstep.
There are some very wealthy residents and well established communities on that peninsula, I've seen the neighborhoods take a 360 turn, dont wave off rockaway
I've seen the neighborhoods take a 360 turn
How would that help?
Right. 360 degrees means you end up right where you started.
I think the intended measurement was 180 degrees.
:-) Andrew
i was thinking 180, for some reason i typed out 360, You know what i mean
Have you considered a course in conversational geometry? It's very useful. (=
Dan
Bad pun alert:
That's a very acute observation. I hope most of the readership is not too obtuse to get it. If it is, we can meet on the way to the Rockaways, say at Euclid Ave., and RECTify that.
SINE-ing off,
The Eggman
...are you the Eggman?
I'll be waiting at RECTor Street.
Gradians are better. We should use those.
The Rockaways can make a complete 200.
Why wont ny sell staten island to new jersey, and Then charge large rent fees for the R43s
I think that NJ should just invade SI and sieze it back. That yhat race was fixed. The original charter should be honoured.
Can New York invade Jersey City and Hoboken? :0)
New Jersey never had a charter giving it Staten Island. New Jersey got land west of the Hudson. The Hudson doesn't pass by Staten Island does it?
It doesn't pass by Atlantic City either.
Interesting. One incentive for the city to rid itself of the Rockaways is the fact that a good part of it is comprised of various low-income/public housing units and ramshackle single-family homes. people on Public Assistance make up a large part of the population there, so the city would benefit by 'cutting the deadbeats loose' so to speak.
BMTman
In the past it was said that the Rockaways were NYC's Siberia. The people from public housing who couldn't seem to get along with their neighbors ended up in public housing in the Rockaways.
So if that's true it would mean that the Rockaways have an extraordinary number of "deadbeats" because the city put them there.
A "Rockaways City" probably would make Asbury Park look like Beverly Hills.
Obviously neighborhoods like Rockaway Park, Roxbusry, Neponsit, Breezy point mean nothing to you people, those residents have pretty good incomes, oh yea and I don't think a lot of you are farmiliar with the process of public housing, I don't appreciate anyone calling those residents "deadbeats" You choose whether you take an apartment if it is offered to you, The city does NOT "PUT" you where they want, whenever your turn comes up, they give you avalible units throught the city , whichever they may be, and you choose whether to take it or keep waiting in line till the next avalible unit, so those people who live in the Projects on Far rockaway, weren't "PUT" there, they chose to accept housing there. I gather a lot of people on subtalk never been or rarely go out on the Rockaways, be it Far Rockaway or towards rockaway park, and choose to be ignorant with their statement, Really not targeting anyone specific.
Obviously neighborhoods like Rockaway Park, Roxbusry, Neponsit, Breezy point mean nothing to you people, those residents have pretty good incomes, oh yea and I don't think a lot of you are farmiliar with the process of public housing, I don't appreciate anyone calling those residents "deadbeats" You choose whether you take an apartment if it is offered to you, The city does NOT "PUT" you where they want, whenever your turn comes up, they give you avalible units throught the city , whichever they may be, and you choose whether to take it or keep waiting in line till the next avalible unit, so those people who live in the Projects on Far rockaway, weren't "PUT" there, they chose to accept housing there.
Not quite. The city housing authority traditionally used the Far Rockaway projects as a "dumping ground" for people who had misbehaved in projects elesewhere in the city, for example by selling drugs out of their apartments. Presumably the isolation of the Rockaway peninsula was the reason behind this policy.
I do not know if recalcitrant tenants still get sent to Far Rockaway, but if the practice has ended, it has done so only very recently and many of these people still populate - and wreak havoc in - the Far Rockaway projects.
Let me also point out that there surely are many people in the Far Rockaway projects that weren't dumped there because of misbehavoir, but simply were assigned there in the routine manner. They may even be a large majority of the total project population. Unfortunately, it's a pretty much undeniable fact that a mere handful of bad tenants can ruin a large project for everyone else.
That is very true, I knwo for a fact that many Project Developments are now entering their 4th year of "clensing" NYCHA with the NYPD PSA Housing units are clearing the Projects removing all those who decide to open a Street Pharmacy in their apartment, Choose not to pay rent, choose not to pay extra $7 for air conditioning, Choose to perform any other illegal activity. So far its working.
The biggest change was composition. For awhile anyone that was homeless got sent straight to the top of the list. Now they are going back to keeping a certain percentage of working poor to stabilize the buildings.
there are 3 sides to rockaway, and i hate to put it this starkly, but it is reality:
A)east end: private beach clubs (though you can bribe the guard with cigerettes or booze late at night, assuming you've got a hot girl driving the sports car... which was the only time i ventured down that end of rockaway), nice houses around riis park - a pretty clean beach... nice place.
no one comes down here, unless they're wealthy and white. there is no bus or subways, besides.
B)'demilitarized zone' - from around 116 to the 90's - where people still go in the summer. it's the land between the wealth white folks, and the ghetto.
C)everything west: ghettoriffic. poor as pooh. remove shotguns from under car seats and make sure the seat is locked in an upright position.
enjoy.
I think you have it backwards. The rich area and riis park are on the west side of the Rockaways, while the poor neighborhoods (specifically Far Rockaway) are on the east side.
:-) Andrew
he got you there joe.
shhh! I'm trying to confuse people so they go to the wrong place! hehe!
you're right, my blunder... oops.
ha! You got me.
Ahoy Moose friend of the North,
who are you calling MOOSEHEAD RataMON!!
Jah love you too man
Not necessarily. I would say the 'rough section' is 116 to the B20s. The VERY low numbers are single family homes (the ones right at the Rockaway/Nassau County border by the Atlantic Beach Bridge). Everything to the WEST of 116 is Neponsit and is VERY exclusive. Homes over there are comparable to what you would see on the north shore of Long Island (minus the larger property).
Of course if you go even further west of Riis Park on the peninsula, you will come to the predominately Irish enclave of Breezy Point (a gated community). Breezy is moderate income as far as I know.
BMTman
Well the B116 area seems pretty good, I don't think it gets bad until a bit more east of there. Things get bad when you head towards Hammels Wye and east.
True. The area 'looks rough and rundown' even by 116 going east. Things get much more raggedy by time you come to the B60's and heading eastward.
BMTman
The VERY low numbers are single family homes (the ones right at the Rockaway/Nassau County border by the Atlantic Beach Bridge).
I don't know what the income level there is like, but Bayswater (at the other end of Mott Avenue) is not bad.
NO! It is you who are wrong.
Our alien overlords have reversed the Earth's magnetic field, so all compasses are WRONG.
Isn't it true that railroads have a weird meaning of east-west. I have heard that LIRR considers Far Rockaway railroad "east" from Valley stream. Same goes for SIR, Tottenville is railroad "east" of St.Goerge.
It usually derives from where the original terminuses were. In SI, you have to go east from the raliroad bridge from NJ to get to Tottenville (via St. George). Ditto, Far Rock is east of Penn Station.
You make it sound like it's Beirut! i stayed at the beautifull beachfront hotel (well okay maybe not beachfront but at least it's abandoned bldg front hotel) for a couple of nights on 116th. Many people walking around and talking to themselves. I did not encounter kids or intimidating figures hanging around on street corners, there weren't many borded up buildings actually allot of grentrification going on as rows of townhouses being built.
this is not as ghettorific as for eg: Broadway or Livonia in ENY. Hey now !!
you shoulda went down towards say, B60th street... that area gets nice in all the wrong ways.
you sure that wasn't an hourly motel?
ENY @ night is niiiiice. street pharming!
hourly, oh for sure wouldn't have it any other way? Ask your buddy V who you went UE over the weekend with, he'll tell you , he's the one who found it for me! As for ENY nothing like Livonia or under the "J" at night, that's the way to find out what you're made of!!
hey by the way I told Joe about your Late night ventures, we all had a good laugh on the train (J train it was) especially when I mentioned You had a nice Red Yankee Cap and Quebec License Plates, boy howdy
Why Just a few years ago...
there are 3 sides to rockaway, and i hate to put it this starkly, but it is reality:
A)east end: private beach clubs (though you can bribe the guard with cigerettes or booze late at night, assuming you've got a hot girl driving the sports car... which was the only time i ventured down that end of rockaway), nice houses around riis park - a pretty clean beach... nice place.
no one comes down here, unless they're wealthy and white. there is no bus or subways, besides.
B)'demilitarized zone' - from around 116 to the 90's - where people still go in the summer. it's the land between the wealth white folks, and the ghetto.
C)everything west: ghettoriffic. poor as pooh. remove shotguns from under car seats and make sure the seat is locked in an upright position.
A couple of comments. As others have pointed out already, the east and west are mixed up. I'll also add that there's a fourth part of the Rockaways. On the very easternmost part - far Far Rockaway, if you will - hard up against the Nassau line, there's a stable and fairly prosperous Orthodox Jewish community. It's very difficult to believe that this community is located just a few blocks from the dreariness of downtown Far Rockaway.
I only passed through that end very briefly, late at night - given how close it is to valley queens... i mean valley stream, it doesn't surprise me too much.
it's sorta like the contrast from E98th street to E96th street down along 2nd, 3rd, and lex. you go from the ghetto to wealthville in 2 short blocks.
Far Eastern Far Rockaway borders on Lawrence and Inwood, not Valley Stream (which is a few miles to the north and east.) It is sometimes refered to as West Lawrence.
:-) Andrew
The border between Garden City and Hempstead is also quite a stark contrast.
I am familiar with the neighborhoods you're talking about. When I lived in Brooklyn I made the laborious trek on th Q35 to enjoy the beach at Neponsit,
There are large stretches of the Rockaways, especially where cottages used to be, that the City neglected and allowed to go to ruin. The allegations about "dumping" of welfare recipients was reported in years past by the New York Times.
Rockaway is (possibly) starting to turn around. New townhouses are going up in the barren wastelands of Edgemere and Arverne; hopefully, these will attract some middle-class families priced out of other areas of the city or Nassau and wanting to be close to the water. Unfortunately, the stretch of beach there is useless, having been turned over to the Piping Plovers.
It is stupid to close a beach due to "piping plover" birds. Those E-freaks like the Coalition will do anything to make our lives miserable, not because they have a cause but because they are OCD'ed and drive fancy SUV's while they sip Starbucks.
It is ridiculous to let a stupid little bird take precedence over the economy of an area and it's people. Well look at the north shore, you see the result.
You think up all kinds of fantasies under that bed, don't you? New York neighborhoods full of creeps gunning especially for you, piping plovers screeching "ha-ha" from your favorite stretch of beach. The world is out to get you.
Just in case you're open to any education at all, let me offer you this (and if not, maybe someone else will be open). Preserving some stretches of beach to prevent destruction of eggs and habitat of rare, threatened birds doesn't do any of us harm. Nor is it unique to the beach. On Air Force bases, there are places where signs ask personnel not to park vehicles in tall grass because rare, endangered turtles and other creatures nest there. A loss of biodiversity can be a serious thing. Not only do you lose the one critter in front of you; you can lose animals up and down the food chain as a result, and that can have a negative effect on all of us.
If you would like to do do some reading from a reasonable, non-radical, source respected by liberals and conservatives alike, go to www.nature.org, the site of the Nature Conservancy, and poke around a little. In addition, the Conservancy has offices in Cold Spring Harbor (631)367-3225 and Hampton(631)329-7689. The people there host some nice little excursions and nature walks. With a fair amount of warm weather still left, not to mention the gorgeous fall colors coming up, why don't you take advantage of that?
Then post what you learned here.
Nice post.
thanks...
BMTman
Useless in what sense? The beach was open to the public when I was out there a few months ago (April?). IIRC, there was one family sitting on the beach and, oh, about five people (myself included) strolling along the nicely rebuilt boardwalk. (This was on a sunny Sunday afternoon.)
You have NO idea how crowded the rockawyas get on summer weekends, and the Shuttle train is PACKED.
You mean there are more than three people in each car?
Keep in mind that I'm speaking of Edgemere here -- pure desolation. That's on the A, not the shuttle -- although the weekend in question, all Rockaway service was via isolated shuttle, connected to the rest of the system by shuttle bus.
I don't understand why people go to the beach when it's hot. If it's above 85 and I'm forced to remain outdoors, I feel like curling up and dying. My ideal day is 65-70, mostly sunny. (Fall is my favorite season. I hate summer most of all.) I'm pretty happy with 60-65 or 70-75. Anything above 80 is unpleasant, especially with humidity. Yet above-80 days are when the beaches fill up. I don't get it -- especially when they then show up here and complain about malfunctioning a/c on the 7.
(All temperatures in degrees Fahrenheit.)
Well as long as there's a sea breeze the beach is nice. But in late summer water temps are warm and sea breezes don't offer much relief. In heat waves I opt for mall, library, or any air conditioned building. Subway trains and buses also provide relief, though waiting for them isn't always too much fun.
Yup your right on target with your opinion of perfect weather, 80 or above and I sweat. The humidity in August is just opppressive. I can't wait till the summer is over. The only two things I like about summer are women in those sexy summer dresses and thunderstorms.
Summers are great. It must have sucked back in the old days, but now with everything air conditioned it's much better.
There's one place that is measurably worse in the summer now
compared to 50 years ago (and its on-topic too): the subway platform
Yeah but it must've been something riding those old trains after a hot day heading to the Rockaways with all the windows open and the fresh ocean air coming in.
If it's above 85 and I'm forced to remain outdoors, I feel like curling up and dying. My ideal day is 65-70, mostly sunny. (Fall is my favorite season. I hate summer most of all.) I'm pretty happy with 60-65 or 70-75. Anything above 80 is unpleasant, especially with humidity. Yet above-80 days are when the beaches fill up. I don't get it -- especially when they then show up here and complain about malfunctioning a/c on the 7.
(All temperatures in degrees Fahrenheit.)
Heh heh, I certainly hope those temperatures were in degrees Fahrenheit, otherwise we'd be in big trouble!
Come up to Canada EH!! Our beautifull round igloos keep us cool all summer long !
Heh. Are you saving some Newfie whales?
Tiger Woods drives his new Volvo into a service station in St. John's on his tour of Newfoundland.
The attendant at the pump greets him in a typical Newfoundland manner.
He doesn't know who the golf pro is. "How are ya, today".
Tiger bends down to pick up the pump and two tees fall out of his shirt pocket onto the ground.
"What are dey, Son?" asks the attendant.
"They are called tees," replies Tiger.
"What are dey fer?" enquires the Newfoundlander.
"They're where I rest my balls when I'm driving," says Tiger.
"Lard Jaysus!!!" says the Newfie, "Dem boys at Volvo tinks of
everyting."
Umm... Don't tell the people at Buick that young Eldrick is driving a Volvo, he might lose his endorsement contract.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ha good one!!!
... and how depressing the beach looks on a Sunday evening... *sigh* they ruin my beach every weekend...
Hey Mr. Tilt, remember How just a few years ago.....
Hell Rockaway used to be fun, empty and ghetto, the shuttle was a good scary ride, Mr. Pig Nose (remember Joe I told You about that cop) Patroled Broad CVhannel, Largest Cop Transit cop in history, compares weight-wise to the Mounted Unit officers, the non human ones. and lots lots lots less condos.
Useless as in you can't go in the water, the reason most people would want to live adjacent to a beach. Personally, that's my favorite stretch of beach in the city, since I don't swim much anyway, and I like the seclusion; plus (sacriledge for SubTalk), parking is incredibly easy :).
SeveN, I guess I should've used a better term than 'deadbeats' since I too know people who live out in Far Rock who ARE NOT in that category (one of them being a former SubTalker).
BMTman
There's always somebody in NY trying to be a comedian...
Geez. Rockaway City? That seems like it will bennefit this close to nobody. Staten Island has more of a tax base. Heck--Labrador City has more of a tax base. (HYPERBOLE ALERT)
OK. Outside of the subway issue, what would the county be? Still Queens County (which would no longer be coterminous with Queens Borough!) Nassau County? A new county?
:-) Andrew
I think it would be part of Nassau county. Unfortunately the Rockaways have a few NIMBY isolationists and they want to make noise.
Ultimately there's no way a Rockaway City could ever happen.
I think most residents want to remain part of NYC.
In that case why not just return to being a part of the Town of Hempstead as they were before 1898?
If it WERE to happen, I have no doubts about the small minds in city hall on both sides of the aisle ... funding would be granted to the NYC Department of Aviation and Marine to buy a bomber and blow the hell out of Broad Channel until the trestle were pulverized. "Here you go, geniuses ... enjoy the LIRR" would be the battle cry. :)
Bomb the roads too.
let them enjoy the isolation.
and forget the ferries. they can swim to the mainland.
They have ... ROADS?!?! They definitely don't need a subway then. They can sink their SUV's until you can walk to town. Heh. Seriously though, for an area as bereft of tax cash goes, this has to be a geunuine case of subduction, someone smoking quack down yonder. Looks like some bales of errr ... ummm ... hay ... yeah, that's the ticket ... washed ashore down there. Then again, I remember when it was seriously discussed in the 1950's/60's in Riverdale in the Bronx until they realized they'd be cozying up to Yankers. :)
Staten Island every couple years threatens to go back to Jersey! (most SI residents feel that they live in Jersey then NYC!)
Maybe NYC should Swallow Nassau County as Boro #6 (From Forgotten Ny: Most of Eastern Queens County before 1898 was Nassau County.)
SI is a wanna-be jersey. it's the mini-me of jersey. jersey light.
i bet it's the redneck population of rockaway that wants to leave the city - they're probably the same folks behind the broad channel parade with them lovely mockery floats like "hasidic park", etc.
someone find that golden venture boat, throw them rednecks on it, and send them on down to alabama where they belong.
anyway.
hell yes, why, just a few years ago, I'd have the balls to force em up and rough those confederate folk back to stinkin dixie lean, why...just a few years ago
hell yes, why, just a few years ago, I'd have the balls to force em up and rough those confederate folk back to stinkin dixie land, why...just a few years ago
Staten Island does remind me of New Jersey alot.
and that can't be good
I like New Jersey. It has a more blue collar and open feel than New York.
That's what selectively visiting parts of New Jersey that are favorable to you will do.
You can imagine any fantasy about the richest state.
Actually, the combined counties (today's Queens and Nassau) were known as Queens County prior to 1898. The name "Nassau County" was invented at that time for that part of (the former) Queens County that didn't join the city. Why they picked that name, I don't know.
The natural partner for "Suffolk" would be "Norfolk" (as in England, and in Massachusetts). Perhaps they first thought of that, rejected it, but wanted to stick with an "N" name?
Anyway, what never made sense to me about the Staten Island secession plan was why they talked about making it a "City of Staten Island". Why a city at all? Why not a county government, containing both incorporated and unincorporated areas, something like Westchester or Nassau counties? And if Rockaway secedes (which it won't), it would make sense for it to join Nassau County. But would Nassau want it? And again, should it be a "city", a "village", or perhaps several villages with unincorporated areas between them? Or a City or Village of Far Rockaway and the rest unincorporated?
Boston is Suffolk County, is it not? And there is a Norfolk County nearby...
That's what I said, Norfolk and Suffolk are paired both in England and in Massachussets (New England).
Actually, the combined counties (today's Queens and Nassau) were known as Queens County prior to 1898.
It was 1899.
The name "Nassau County" was invented at that time for that part of (the former) Queens County that didn't join the city. Why they picked that name, I don't know.
Nice try, but the original plan was to name it Ocean County. The plan was changed to Nassau County as Nassau was the Dutch name for Long Island.
If Nassau weren't currently bankrupt, that would be a nice idea. Unfortunately it is, and annexing it would kill our economy.
Dan
Staten Island was never part of New Jersey.
I want to obtain the sound files if available of the traction motors of the IRT Low-V subway cars and perhaps the BMT "Standards" and "Triplexes". I would also want to obtain sound files of the old IND (R-1/9) subway cars was well. If other sounds such as screeching brakes are available please let me know.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Command Center calling 'heypaul', come in please, come in.
"heypaul". Please come in. I want the sound files to the old subway cars such as the IRT Low-Vs.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I've gotten some sound bits from Dirty Harry, including some nifty R-10 door sounds. They sound just the way I remember them.
My apologies to you Sir (and all Subtalkers) for the tone of my posts. I WAS WAY OUT OF LINE AND REGRET ANY DISPARAGING REMARKS I MADE CONCERNING YOU OR YOUR CHARACTER. Trading insults is not the way to do business and I was a fool to allow my anger to overpower my better judgment. Again, my apologies to you and to everyone who posts.
Eric Dale Smith
The new 41st Street IRT entrance will be opening today, according to signs posted on and around the token booth.
Will the exit just down the passageway, by the top of the Flushing single escalator, be closing in response?
I went to Stamford, CT today, and saw the local train to New Cannan, but the consist was made up of three cars! On closer inspection, the middle car had its cab removed and was modified to have both ends look like it was made without a cab. I know that the cars were delivered as married pairs, so when did the modifications begin?
I later saw a train with a couple of cabless cars like that, so there must be something up. There was some talk about de-powering all of the M-2 cars and using locomotives like the ALP-44's of NJT fame to supply the traction effort, but I have not heard anything lately.
Any ideas?
I believe what you saw were M-6s. I'm pretty sure that M-K built the M-6s as 3 car units.
I concur. The present plan is to rehab the M-2 cars next year (imagine rush hours with 10 fewer cars than now -- people on the roof??) and that will keep them operating until about 2010 or so.
The triplet configuration is supposed to be the standard for new purchases on the New Haven line (if there ever are any).
Also the M-4s
Respond to this message please.
Why?
OH YEAH!
The 240 or so M-2's are married pairs. The 60 M-4's and 36 M-6's are triplets. They are all mixed consists. The M-6's can be distinguished by more black window outlining and numbering conflicts with the LIRR (9000's).
Can anyone tell me whether there are any preserved examples (operational or static) of the NY Central T Class BoBo+BoBo electric locomotives which were built to haul main line passenger trains into NY, were introduced in 1913 (or there abouts)and were, I think, still operational in the early 60s.
Thanks
T motors...I don't know of any. There is an S-motor at IRM.
We have one here in the Albany area - parked out on a siding along with an Alco RS2 and some former D&H Adirondack coaches - it's located on River Road (Rte 144) on the edge of the Albany Steam Plant (electric power station) owned by PSE&G now (former Niagara Mohawk) in the town of Bethlehem about 4 miles south of Pearl St in downtown Albany ... conveniently located for photography, don't think for a SECOND of trespassing ... owned by the Mohawk Valley Rail (club?) organization ... original NYC Black paint, locomotive number 100, description as follows:
NYC&HR 6000, Class T-1, Alco, October, 1904, #29935, General Electric, #2100. It was renumbered 3400 in 1905 or 1906, and renumbered 3200 in September, 1908. It was rebuilt with a 4 wheel leading truck in 1909 as Class S-1. It was renumber 1100 in October, 1917, and 100 in August, 1936.
Picture of 100 here (taken at the Harmon graveyard years ago) if anyone cares:
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/nyc/nyc100as.jpg
And finally, the original drawings if anyone's interested:
S-1 (formerly T-1 class) as in #100:
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/nyc/nyc-s1.gif
T classes (for the purists)
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/nyc/nyc-t1.gif
Had one of these in Lionel size ... my first engine.
Mr t__:^)
You're a sick puppy, bro. :)
It's funny. Back before there was a JFK HIgh School in the Bronx, that space was the NYC "Marble HIll Yards" ... they'd STORE those babies there when they weren't "rush hour" ... I had a buddy, Tom Fallon, whose DAD, "Tom Fallon" was one of those electric motormen and I'd often get to ride in those things with Tommy back and forth to Croton, especially on Saturdays. The OZONE levels were spectacular in those things. TALK about that "Lionel smell" ... heh.
Thanks, Selkirk, for this informative post, since the existence of an S class is itself extremely interesting, but my post may have been confusing. I was after what I believe to be the second T class, which was a large locomotive of around 2600 HP and which had a central box cab attached to two separate but linked Bo Bo wheelbases, making it a Bo Bo + Bo Bo - four bogies on all. I suspect that Jeff H is right and that none have been preserved
Thanks anyway
Jeff probably is ... he KNOWS his stuff ... just wanted to point out though that our little loco in the woods is a former "T1" class, so at the bare minimum was a "T" though not with the extensions of the BB+BB trucking. I included the drawing of what you meant in one of the previous posts and that sucker clearly had a good amount of power to it. I've sent an email to a guy I know with the club who owns it - might hear back in a day or two ... since the area I live in was the NYC's "home away from home" chances are it would be either here, Cleveland or Chi-town where any WOULD turn up though it seems that Penn Central probably cut them all up at Croton-Harmon ...
Thanks for the advice and the excellent photos and drawings of the original T. While we are on the subject, does anyone know whether any PRR DD1 2BB2s - contemporaries of the Ts - were preserved?
As far as I know, there's a pair still at the Strasburg, PA (same museum as hosts "Thomas") - numbers 3936 and 3937 ...
http://community-1.webtv.net/electricloco/CLASSDD1PRRELECTRIC
Excellent, thanks
You're most welcome ... always nice to be led to new information myself. Digging that up was a bit of fun actually. :)
This isn't intended as a nitpick, just an FYI. The Strasburg RR and the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum are separate entities located across the street from one another. Their degree of cooperation makes it seem as though they are one organization.
Sorry about that - could only go by the information I found on it. Shall I correct the guy on that link or would you like to? No sense mailbombing him. :)
Whoops ... or was it ME making the incorrect association? Gotta stop staying up all night stalking computer nasties until I'm stupid. :)
I think you should know - there IS a single T-class motor in existence!! I don't know a heckuva lot about its history, but I know that it's New York Central #278, which is a T-3a type boxcab built by General Electric in 1926. It is owned by the Mohawk & Hudson Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society, and is stored on their site (I'm not sure exactly where this is). It has been cosmetically restored to its later two-tone grey "lightning stripe" livery, however I do not think it's on regular display.
Here is a link to the Mohawk & Hudson Ch. NRHS home page...
http://family.knick.net/railroad/
...and to the page about their railway equipment...
http://family.knick.net/railroad/his_pres.htm
Hope this helps!
Frank, thats IT!!! Thanks to you and everyone else who responded.
Yep ... confirmed, just posted a pic of it from the site, took a run out to the NiMo station and it's THERE ... about four miles south of Albany on Route 144 ... parked outside the "Albany Steam Plant" ...
I think the ones the original poster is referring to are the boxcabs with small platforms at the ends...the T-2 and T-3 types, very similar to the ex-CUT P-2's. The T's were numbered in the high 200-series, I think 270 and up. Yes, they were in service until the mid-1960's, used to see plenty of them when I attended Cardinal Hayes HS ifrom 1964 to 1968.
As it turns out, the Mohawk and Hudson Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society *DOES* possess a T3a electric (locomotive number 278) as well as the S-1 ... picture on the right of both as shot at the NiMo site ...
Locomotive #100 in the rear, T-3A #278 in the foreground. I had forgotten completely about it - painted in the NYC GRAY with the "lightning stripes" ...
The NYC did have S motors in operation. One survived as a GCT switcher. They originally had a 1-D-1 arrangement, but they were converted to a 2-D-2 arrangement to improve tracking. My info about the T motors are too vague to report.
were these the boxcabs that were assigned to cleveland union station and eventually equipped with a 3rd rail shoe for operation at grand central?
The large electric locomotives that came from the Cleveland Union Terminal electrification, when sold to the NYC, were put into the "R" series. They were considerably larger than the T-motors, and had expansive "porches" at each end. Boy, I wish one of those beauties had been saved!
Dish! Tell us more ... searches turned up on "R class" rather empty ... after years at this milnet stuff, can search with the best of them, but nothing, zugga, nada on "R class" ...
The large electric locomotives that came from the Cleveland Union Terminal electrification, when sold to the NYC, were put into the "R" series. They were considerably larger than the T-motors, and had expansive "porches" at each end. Boy, I wish one of those beauties had been saved!
I usually dont say much on here but I cant let this one go by. The P-2 motors were purchased from CUT and rebuilt to run on 600vdc used on the Hudson and Harlem Divisions. Unfortunately none were saved as some mentioned before. The R-Motors were built as freight locomotives, mainly for use on the West Side Freight line. When electric operations were abandoned on the West Side freight line most of the R motors were sold to the South Shore Line (CSS&SB) and rebuilt for 1500vdc (I think) some remained in the electric division as I have movies my father took in the mid-sixties showing one at North White Plains being used as a switcher. The T and S Motors have been covered so i will leave that part alone.
Today, We "Twist and Shout."
I would bet that many of you are thinking about that great old Beatles song
of the same name. Maybe I could even revert back to my old disk jockeying
days and do some sort of great voice over introduction for today's lesson.
As much as I would like too, I cannot. Not because I've lost the touch, but
because it is impossible to voice over when there is no music. Our episode
today is not about classic rock, but instead, deals with the weather.
Quite some time ago, somebody asked me about severe weather and what we do
in case we encounter such conditions. I had been giving this idea much
thought, but never had the really bad stuff to deal with in order to
accurately present such a topic.
While over the years I have operated in severe thunderstorms, hail, high
winds, blinding snow storms and the like, I have not encountered anything
worse; that is until yesterday.
It was a typical CNIC kind of trip, one of those trains that resembled a few
old girlfriends. You know the type, overweight and under powered. We were
slugging it along after doing our set out and pick up at Otto, just south of
Kankakee. We had begun to encounter some rain while doing our work at Otto.
Nothing major, just you're run of the mill typical summer shower type of
stuff.
As we lumbered south, the rain intensified a bit but again, nothing severe.
It then let up to a gentle rain and even stopped for a bit. As we approached
Paxton, Conductor Wayne Bishop and I observed storm clouds on the horizon.
That is in the literal and not figurative sense. It started to get very dark
and threatening looking to the southwest. As it worked its way toward the
northeast, it appeared that we might get lucky and miss out on the front.
But it was not to be. The front seemed to be moving at lightning speed and
caught up to us rather quickly.
We observed quite a bit of lightning as it approached. It started out as
rain, getting heavier at times, but still not of the violent variety. The
clouds were getting more and more menacing looking and the sky took on an
unusual shade of blue around the blackness of the clouds and the ground
immediately below.
As we rolled through Ludlow just south of Paxton, Chicago South called and
informed us of reports of winds in the 60-mph range and to use caution.
Being as CN's US operations has no specific special instructions dealing
with such conditions like some other railroads do, I inquired as to what
they would like from me with regards to moving my train.
"Should I reduce speed or do you want me to stop?"
I was told to continue on at normal speed but be on the lookout for violent
weather and be prepared to stop if necessary. These instructions make it
much clearer, like mud. To me, this leaves it all in my hands.
Can you say "Catch 22?"
So we proceeded along keeping the ever-mindful eye on the sky.
Wayne and began to discuss violent weather and I recounted a few stories of
the tornadoes I had been through and witnessing the damages incurred. I also
mentioned that in almost 23 years of railroading, I had never witnessed one
from the locomotive.
We did have a tornado hit one of our trains at Tolono, IL south of Champaign
in 1997. Fortunately, I was not a party to that event.
As we started into the siding at Rantoul to meet 325 who was out and running
from Champaign, I observed motion within the thunderheads looming to the
west of us. As we passed through downtown Rantoul, I observed the rapid
spinning of a section of the clouds. I told Wayne that I spotted a funnel
cloud. Having been through several tornadoes and observing a few of them and
the damage they rendered far too close for comfort, I was pretty certain as
to what I was witnessing. Wayne came over to my side to take a look. Chicago
South came on the radio and informed 325 that there were now reports of
65-mph winds and to reduce to 30 mph. I informed him that I had spotted a
funnel cloud at Rantoul.
We were still pulling in the siding at this point with the train coming
through town. I was surprisingly calm but remember thinking that I wanted to
be certain that I cleared all the road crossings in case of something
serious happening.
As I reached the seed farm just south of town, I scanned across the open
land and observed a tremendous cloud of dust to the west. It wasn't
windblown dust. It was swirling rapidly. And it was extending extremely high
into the sky. This was it, a tornado!
I got on the radio and shouted at 325 to bring his train to a safe stop, as
there was a tornado at Rantoul. We were down to about 8 or 10 mph and I was
not working them hard as we were coming to a stop. We could easily hear the
warning sirens as they sounded their alerts in town. For whatever reason,
the Student Engineer on 325 was saying something about not understanding my
radio. The Champaign Yardmaster relayed the info and told him to stop his
train.
As we came to a stop, Wayne and I discussed our options. The tornado did not
appear to be heading towards us. We closed the windows and exited the cab
figuring if need be, we would climb down the embankments along the right of
way here and into the ravines. Wayne mentioned a culvert that we could run
into if need be. We stood on the front catwalk of the lead unit scanning the
skies but could no longer see the twister. I climbed up on the nose of the
engine and saw nothing. We had come over the hill in Rantoul and were well
on the downward side of town. We climbed off and walked around. Wayne turned
his handset radio to the National Weather Service channel and they reported
of Doppler Radar detecting a tornado in Rantoul. And here we are witnessing
this phenomenon of nature.
"All is as was, and you are there."
We looked all around and could no longer see any activity behind us at all.
However, as I scanned the sky in front of us, I noticed rapidly swirling
clouds beginning to form again, this time, right above us. The motion was
pretty fast moving. I took a couple of pictures of the motion. It did not
form a funnel in within our range of vision, but it sure appeared to have
all the makings.
We told 325 that it appeared the tornado had passed. It did not hit our
train, as there was no emergency from within. When I came to a stop, I made
a full service application of the brakes, but did not place the train into
emergency. I figured this way, if something did happen, we would know
immediately as an emergency application would alert us.
A friend who used to work for the Chicago & Northwestern in Iowa told of
coming into Marshalltown, IA one afternoon when the Marshalltown Operator
called all trains in the area instructing them to stop their trains and
place them into emergency. The reason for these instructions was due to a
tornado being spotted in the area. Our reasoning for requesting the
emergency application is that they wanted the trains as secure as they could
get so as not to be blown up or down the tracks. Of course, the emergency
application doesn't prevent them from being blown off the tracks.
We met 325 finally and then headed south the 11 miles to Champaign. Upon our
arrival there, another storm cell was rapidly approaching from the
southwest. We managed to get our set out made and the transfer done with the
outbound crew, then reached the yard office before all hell broke loose
again. The wind was really blowing hard this time and the rains were
beginning. As we reached the office, the rain became a deluge. We managed
not to get drowned like rats. It poured so hard you could not see across the
yard. The tornado sirens were now sounding here.
The Gilman-Champaign Local ready to depart after our arrival was held at
Champaign until after 1615 as more tornado warnings were issued. The powers
that be had decided it would be safer for them to be here rather than on the
road.
While in the yard office it was mentioned that if it was learned a tornado
was approaching we would all head out to a couple of locomotives sitting
across from the office. There is no basement to this building but I
questioned the rationale of this logic and was told the following story.
Yardmaster Dave Vaught recalled his encountering a tornado while on the
train. As he put it, "We met the tornado." He told of he and the Engineer
climbing into the nose and closing the door behind them. He went on to say
the engine shook violently but remained upright. When all was said and done,
they were okay and unharmed. In their haste to get to safety, they left the
cab windows wide open on this hot day. As they climbed out of the nose, they
discovered debris, branches, leaves and water all over the cab of the
engine.
We later learned the tornado we spotted had actually crossed Interstate 57.
There were numerous reports of tornadoes in Central Illinois this day. Kenny
Loggins our cab driver told us of another Illini Limo driver with a CNIC
crew on board spotting one near Mt Pulaski, IL that is quite a ways
southwest of Champaign. On the Weather Channel they discussed the situation
at great length calling these storms "Super Cells." They reported a tornado
on the ground near Ogden, just east of the Champaign-Urbana area, another 7
miles south of Monticello near Bement, IL as well as several others. It made
me wonder if that spinning cloud that Wayne and I observed had fully
developed into a tornado.
The most violent weather subsided in Champaign within that following hour
moving east towards Indianapolis and Lafayette, IN.
I would have to say we dodged yet another bullet while gaining still another
experience and memory. Both of which I hope are not soon, if ever, repeated.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001
Amazing Story, Wouldnt that be something if the Tornado lifted the whole engine and such, was the train carrying anything important?
Just remember that I don't write these. Tornadoes have hit trains. A locomotive weighs between 100 and 200 tonnes and isn't going anywhere. Freight cars are also pretty heavy and would only get knocked off the track at the very most. You'll probably never see an airborne boxcar.
Just remember that I don't write these. Tornadoes have hit trains. A locomotive weighs between 100 and 200 tonnes and isn't going anywhere. Freight cars are also pretty heavy and would only get knocked off the track at the very most. You'll probably never see an airborne boxcar.
Tornados have been known to rip the asphalt off streets and leave the roadbed exposed. Think about it. A tornado strong enough to do that probably could send a boxcar aloft quite easily.
I wouldn't be surprised if a decent sized tornado could move a boxcar. They throw cars pretty easy, trucks pretty easy. Lots of things...
Never underestimate the power of a blast of wind moving at 200mph...
I seem to remember reading something once in a book about railroaders' tales that said something about airbourne boxcars. However I also seem to recall this wasn't due to a tornado and was due to some kind of mystical Force Eight.
Lexcie
Well a car weighs 1 or 2 tonnes. An RR car weighs like 20-50 empty. Yes a tornado will throw cars about, but I have never heard of them being lifted and carried.
You'll probably never see an airborne boxcar.
I've witnessed a couple of tornados in North Carolina, and recall seeing the aftermath of one of those tornados where it hit the ex-ACL branch near my home in March 1983. Three loaded covered hoppers of grain destined for the Perdue feed mill between Nashville and Momeyer were picked up and tossed a couple of hundred feet from the track. Five of the six trucks remained on or near the tracks; the sixth was dropped about five hundred feet away, onto the front porch of a house. The locomotive was about a mile away switching another cut of cars at the time so it was not affected, other than by being isolated on the wrong side of the damaged track.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm glad I live in New Jersey and not, oh, Kansas.
Just in case anyone is interested they have been testing out an 8 car 143 on the sea beach line for the last couple of evenings.(i saw it when i was passing it around 8 - 9 pm) They usually lay it up ajacent to the shop in ci yard. Good chance to get some pictures.
Another bit of info t/o i talked to said they have a padlock on the end doors so no one can sneek inside!!!
It seems kawasaki doesnt want it to get wrecked before they get paid for it! lol
I saw the train at 18th Ave on the N Saturday as I was heading for work. Testing was completed by 7PM, and the train made it's way to the Yard.
Those damed R143s.... They kept the W from running express to Coney Island.
Can we get the other Sea Beach Express track back now?
-Stef
They also have run them between Howard Beach and Broad Channel on the test tracks.
I went to the Yankees game yesterday,after the game, me and a couple of my buddies where waiting on the southbound platform, we saw two redbirds pull in and out of 161 first station, heading towards Bowling Green{we got on the second redbird}. How many extra trains does the TA use for Yankees games?
Must be something new. I have never known the TA to run any extra trains for Yankee games.
At Shea however, they sometimes do have 7 trains waiting for the Mets games to end. It depends on how big the crowd is.
It is not new. They have been doing that for years. I don't think they run as many as they do at Shea because you have the D train taking care of part of the load.
They ran a extra 4 after Yankee Games since the 40s
I worked the "Baseball Specials" at both Yankee and Shea Stadiums. Here how it goes:
Yankee Stadium: Can have anywhere from 4-10 extra trains depending on who the Yanks are playing. This past weekend there were 6 extra trains for the Mariners series. Due to GO this past weekend, all went to BG. Sometimes some trains go all the way down to Utica and return lite depending on the road conditions. During the Subway Series this year there were 10 extra trains.
Shea Stadium: 4 extra trains all the time. During the week there is frequent service that sometimes not all of the trains go out. All trains go to TS and retun lite depending on road conditions. Once again only during the Subway Series, there was ten extra trains.
Another factor into the whole extra trains is that more people drive to Shea than Yankee Stadium.
Yeah, they had 7/8 specials (IRT#4) during the Wild Card series back in '96 for the Yankees. I was the last one on one evening. On the evening of the clinching game of the '96 series I was operating a southbound 4 out of Woodlawn. With the doors open at 161, 3B Charlie Hayes caught the last out of the game. The place went bananas. Someone had a radio tuned to the game on the platform so that's how I knew. I wish I could have stayed.
The Shea specials are sooooooooooooo sweet! 1/2 trip for 10 hours sometimes. Just bring reading material and a cup to pee in.
Sometimes they have baseball specials coming out of Coney Island yard (D line) for the Yankee games. They usually start out of CCY.
A cup to pee in? So that's how u guys do it... and does light mean empty until it reaches the certain station?
Gotta go....gotta go....
There are sometime 4 D trains for the Yankees games. I see them on the T/O list all the time.
Robert
They are known as Baseball Specials there are up to 8 baseball specials depending on the crowding at the game. They from from 161 Street to Bowling Green then run light back up. Most of the Baseball Specials are known by the yankee logo where the MTA logo is supposed to be.
I've seen some members use "IIRC" in their messages. What does
"IIRC" mean?
"If I Recall Correctly"
Peace.
ANDEE
AFAIK it means If I Recall Correctly : )
Elias
Before anyone asks (I know you want them to Elias) AFAIK means As Far As I Know.
How about IINM?
Dan
If I'm not mistaken. (If I'm not mistaken.)
Hehehe. Thanks.
Dan
LOL = Lots Of Laughs
ROFL = Rolling On The Floor Laughing
ROLFMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off
BTW = By The Way
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
AFAIK = As Far As I Know
IINM = If I'm Not Mistaken
IMO = In My Opinion
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
BRB = Be Right Back
Short Short Long Short = GET OFF THE DAMN TRACKS! A TRAIN IS COMING!
Elias
The first shipment of redbirds to the "Delaware OffShore Rapid Transit System" arrives Tuesday. The cars will be dumped at reef site #11 which is 16.5 miles due east of Indian River inlet. A Cape May-Lewes ferry has been chartered for the Governor, VIPs and the press. It leaves Lewes, DE at 11:00 AM. Despite my excellent social connections, I could not fanagle an invite.
Anyone want to charter a boat and go watch?
Further info about the reef site at http://www.dnrec.state.de.us/fw/reef.pdf
go to page 14 (last page)
Bill
I'm going to be in Cape May, but NEXT WEEK. Wonder how far the site is from the normal Cape May - Lewes course? Anyone have a clue? (BoatTalk is not available right now :)
--Mark
The radio this AM said 20 cars a week were going there for the next few weeks, although none were at SBK when the BMTman lead his Transit Museum tour there this past Sunday.
Have we talked about who's barge will take them at NYCHRR ? If it's NYCHRR then they'll go by rail into Del & their last boat ride.
Mr t__:^)
Mark,
It's a good 30 miles or more away from the ferry route. Turns out I will be on the Governors special charter afterall. A friend suggested I call her office and ask for a favor. Amazingly, it worked! I'll share pictures when I get back.
Bill
Take your GPS! We want coordinates!
John
The coordinates are listed on the pdf.
Basic area for Site 11 is:
N - 38¡ 40.xxx'
W - 74¡ 43.xxx'
Fabulous! Take a videocamera, too - I mean, how often is it that you see subway car shells tossed into the sea?
--Mark
The MBTA has posted its recent study on restoring trolley service to Arborway (the "E" line past Heath) on its web site. Warning... it's a 50-page .pdf file over 2mb.
Can you give us the gist?
Is it slanted like the Watertown line "study," where they based all of their assumptions on using PCC's for the line, even though there were none oustide of Mattapan at the time?
Last I remember, most of the trackage west of Heath was in good shape, excluding the occasional rough spot...
Dave
Page 25 where the proposed design, if Arborway service is to be reinstated, is outlined there is an entry for vehicles and they recommend desigining the line to accomodate Type 8s, so it looks like the assumption that PCCs would be used isn't being made this time.
Hope this helps...
-Robert King
It definitely would't be PCCs. The Arborway line extends in to the city subway, which has been PCC-free for decades. Boston's PCCs only run on the Mattapan-Ashmont extension of the Red Line.
But I did like the idea of cutting/joining cars at Heath Street to break 3-car or 2-car trains into single cars. It reminds me of West Portal on the MUNI K-L-M lines, where this is common practice, and works well.
>>reminds me of West Portal on the MUNI K-L-M lines,
where this is common practice, and works well.
<<
Ah, Todd, that is mostly history. For several years MUNI has been "afraid" of coupling, uncoupling, which has 'gumed up' the tunnel with too many single cars. For instance it is very rare to see a J/N combo which used to be standard in thetunnel.
That's too bad, Dave. I have fond memories of hanging out at West Portal watching the festivities. Ker-PLUNK!
That reminds me of the period when MUNI would run J/N trains with only one operator in the subway. As soon as there was a tie-up on the surface, there would be no second-car operators to get on at Duboce.
The study finds that restoring LRV service in mixed traffic (i.e. street running without reservations) would be difficult, primarily due to the need to conform to ADA standards for stations. Even with the new accessible Type-8s, the platforms will have to be so large, that vehicular traffic would be impeded and/or parking spots lost. There's also an interesting regulation they're worrying about -- which requires being mindful of bicyclists' needs.
The study doesn't make a recommendation per se, but the conclusions are strongly against LRVs. It doesn't help that the Police and Fire Commissioners both wrote anti-LRV letters, siting public safety concerns (difficulty in navigating emergency vehicles around LRVs).
Todd, I just rode the Heath line a month ago. A portion has street-running already. I remember having to walk into the street to board on my way back, just like a regular bus stop, except the "bus" happened to have steel wheels and run on rails. There were no platforms that I recall, even on the part of the line where the LRVs run in the median. Are you sure todays LRVs have to have ADA platforms and elimination of parking? If so, how is there even talk of restarting Girard Ave. service in Philadelphia (likely with PCCs)? Is the existing street running which I found in Boston exempt from the so-called ADA standards?
See my website for pix of Heath street running (scroll down to last section).
Or, here's one of the pix:
BTW, I snapped this pic of a Riverside LRV (below) in the subway. Is this a Type 8? It looks very similar, livery-wise, to the LRV in the photo above, but that's not a Type 8, as I understand they run on the D line only.
Back in the old days, say 40-50 years ago, most of the trolley stops
in Philly were in the "middle of the street". There are even some today that exist (say when I take a ride on the 13 on Chester Av.),
that you step off the curb and walk into the street to board. There
is nothing saying that a careless motorist could pass the trolley on the right and hit you. This practice is of course, is not legal, but some idiots do it, anyway.
Chuck Greene
I think most trolley tracks are in the middle of the street, even today in Philly, so boarding must indeed take place there. Take
Route 36 in Philly. I guess you could put the tracks next to the curb, like the bus HOV lanes you see some places in New York, but then parking would be eliminated.
Nice photo, Pete. You are right. It's just like it ever was 40 years ago.
Chuck Greene
Another place where trolley tracks could be put to the side is on the Route 15, where the westbound track is in the left turn lane, which gets more backed up than other lanes because of the left turn traffic.
It's new construction/services which has to be ADA compliant. Older portions such as you rode have to be retrofitted... eventually (the MBTA is waaaay behind plan on this). But on the E/Heath segment you rode, there's already progress in building 8" high median platforms to match up with the Type-8s.
New construction?
I thought the Arborway line was "suspended" not abandoned:)
The Low Floor street running issue poses an interesting problem for Toronto and Philly when they renew their LRV fleets.
Surely no one will stand for having ramps stretch out into the right lane. Or would they?
No, that's a Type 7 LRV painted in a new livery, the same livery that appears on the new Type 8's. The Type 8's have a flatter front and electronic destination signs. Last I read, they were on the B-Boston College line. But that was a while ago.
As for Girard Avenue in Philly, from what I read, SEPTA is planning to retrofit the 18 or so PCC's to be used on Girard with wheelchair lifts (and A/C) in an attempt to make them ADA-compliant. Unlike the E-Heath Street branch in Boston, Philadelphia's 15-Girard Avenue line is an all-surface streetcar line (well, it will be when PCC's resume operation), so I don't know how they will make the many stops along Girard Avenue ADA-compliant. It will be intersting to see what the MBTA and SEPTA will do to make their respective street-running lines ADA-compliant.
That's correct. So far, the Type-8s are on the B/Boston College line (there are 16 in service last I knew). Track work on the C/Cleveland Circle line is underway on weekends.
As of last night it seems they're pulled from service.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/trol08212001.htm
-Hank
Personally, I think the ADA compliance issue is a convenient excuse for the NIMBY crowd. It oughtn't to be abused like this. I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it, the law was meant to give the disabled equal access to the same services and the "abled." Platforms/schmatforms. If the wheelchairs can be lifted the few inches into the car, who cares if the LRV is in the street. In this day and age, the car design ought to allow handicapped access regardless of the topography outside the vehicle. This is how our modern buses work -- the new low-floors are even better at this than the old style with the lift in the back door. As for trolley street-running, a man in a wheelchair and a man standing are equally as likely to be struck by another vehicle. Each has an equal chance of boarding the LRV too. I mean no disrespect to our handicapped transit riders, but let's be reasonable about this.
I agree in that what ADA requires is access. It doesn't spell out how the access should be achieved. A wheelchair lift is not good for eveyone who is disabled but not in a wheelchair. So you have alternatives: raise the platform, use a low-floor vehicle, use ramps, use elevators. The solution should be flexible.
However: ADA does not mean you can keep a rail system non-accessible, and tell the disabled "You can take buses." That's unfair, because the disabled pay the same taxes and fares to support the whole system, stigmatizing, and, ultimately, I believe, unconstitutional.
"I agree in that what ADA requires is access. It doesn't spell out how the access should be achieved."
The ADA requires reasonable accomodation. Where access is reaonably feasible, it is expected. The key word is reasonable. Incidently, access does not only mean wheelchair lifts. It includes para-transit, signs in braile, and even priority seating.
You are correct that ADA covers all types of disabilities, not just legs.
As to "reasonable," well, obviously transit agencies with tight budgets will interpret that more strictly than ones with bigger purses...
>>> As for trolley street-running, a man in a wheelchair and a man standing are equally as likely to be struck by another vehicle <<<
Are you suggesting with a straight face that someone in a wheelchair or on crutches has an equal chance of dodging an oncoming car as an able bodied person?
Tom
No. What I meant to say was that whether someone is in a wheelchair or not, the liklihood of an idiot driver trying to pass an LRV on the right side is the same. The ability of either LRV passenger to get out of the way is not equal, obviously.
Anything "new" that requires street running, i.e. no private ROW or wide medium isn't going to fly.
My idea would be to reduce the stops on the extention. That way the disruption to parking spaces, etc. would be reduced & still add express trolley service on that line. The only other solution would be a El or tunnel ... I can't see Boston doing either.
BTW, is there any mention of BRT "Bus Rapid Transit" instead of LRV.
I believe Boston is considering doing that elsewhere in the city.
Mr t__:^)
BTW, is there any mention of BRT "Bus Rapid Transit" instead of LRV.
I believe Boston is considering doing that elsewhere in the city.
I was under the impression that the MBTA was already doing a variant of this as their silver line. And while we're talking about colour coding/naming lines, is there an ADA requirement here to make it easier for colourblind people?!
-Robert King
[I was under the impression that the MBTA was already doing a variant of this (BRT) as their silver line.]
The last I heard they had a PLAN for it associated with the Silver line ... true BRT requires bus "stations" and at least some private ROWs. Many cities are considering BRT as a starting point toward a LRV line, i.e. horizontal & verticle clearances, bridges, loading structures (stations), turning radiuses, etc.
{some of the above comments lifted from a extensive Mass Transit article on "BRT" from their March/April 2001 edition).
Mr t__:^)
When some R33ML were on the #7 line between 1991-94 did they operated them with the R33WF Singles & R36WF on the same train (like mix together)or all 33ML with a 33WF singles?
When I saw (and rode) them on the #7 line it was always a solid train of R-33's - 10 Mainline R-33's plus 1 R-33WF. The mainline R-36's used to be mixed with R-36WF.
Wayne
I didn't know they were running ML R33's on the #7, but can confirm with Wayne that they did mix ML R36's with WF R36's.
What's the diff with ML and WF? WFs were a limited edition or something?
ML (Main Line) cars had the standard rectangular sectioned windows with the drop sash openings, as had been standard on NYC rail cars in some form or another since before the turn of the century.
The R-33/36 cars were built in two styles -- Main Lines and the World's Fair (WF) style which ran on the Flushing Line beginning at the time of the 1964-65 World's Fair. The main differences were the introduction of the wider "picture window" which was divided vertically, so that the top leaf could be opened and slid back into the car to allow air to enter. It's the same design that all New York City subway cars have had in some form or another since then.
The picture windows also were positioned slightly lower than the tops of the ML car windows, and to match that design, the door leaf windows on the WF cars were also lowered slightly from their Main Line counterparts. (After overhaul a decade ago some of the WF units got ML door leafs, which throw the look of the car off a bit, though the MTA really isn't into the asthetics of harmonious door leaf designs on carbon steel cars, for some reason). The WF cars also used to have their own distinctive paint jobs, but that disappeared after air conditioning was added beginning in 1979.
the r33ml's were run either way. more often as a complete set with one r33wf, but there weren't always a round number available at corona. there were no more than 30, 40 at the most on the 7 at any time. they were #'s 9286-9305 off of the 4, a train of 9100's off of the 5 ( i think 9110-1/9116-7/9122-3/9148-9/9196-7) as well as a few other randomly scattered #'s.
it may have been an exchange program, i think 9560-9579 and 9760-69 went to the 5 around the same time.
The ML R33s were mostly the westinghouse group roughly 9078-9089 various 9100s and 9270-9305 were there for a bit. They came here to the 7 due to the GE R 36s getting an overhaul.The consists were mostly solid R33s rarely mixed with R 36s.
Just got Newkirk Images' new subway calendar. Bill's really outdid himself on this one!
Of course what's not to like with the museum BMT Standard gracing the cover on the flyover track at Broadway Junction. The rendering of what the R38 might have looked like in painted LAHT steel is a trip.
Inside it's got a great shot of an R42 posed next to an R9, both signed "D", the Bluebird, BU 737 side view on the Myrt, a three car R11/34 signed for 7-Franklin near Stillwell. Something fro you Redbird buffs, too and (as the expression goes) "much much more".
All nice big bright prints.
Oh! just noticed--the back cover has a notice showing the new fare structure that announced the end of a sacred five cents fare in 1948.
Can I have the mailing address so i could purchase one for myself I would appreciate this very much Thank you very much
Newkirk Images, P. O. Box 237, Copiague, NY 11726.
I understand you can also get them at the Red Caboose, 23 West 45th St, Manhattan.
You can also order the calendars on-line at the Trolley Museum of New York Museum Store.
Willis Hobies in Garden City has them and a few others, I bought a LIRR one.
Mr t__:^)
Reminder ... it's this Thursday, we start from the World Trade Center (PATH platform to Newark) at 6 PM.
Check out "Coming Events" section of this site for more detail.
Rain or Shine ... Mr t__:^)
Correction .... I plan to catch the 5:59 PM train to Newark, so don't be late.
Mr t__:^)
The l-a-s-t reminder ....
Rain or shine we're going to night ....
I'll be at Main Street (with my FUN PASS) until about 4 PM for those that want to take a nice Red Bird ride above sea level !
Suggestion for those coming:
- Bring singles or a 5 or two
- Buy a two trip PATH ticket from machine BEFORE you go down to platform level (two if you want to save one, as the machine will eat the ticket at Newark)
- Buy ONE Newark City Subway ticket (same routine, from machine before you go down to platform, in Newark). Buy a second ticket at Franklin (they are timed, so you can't buy two at Newark).
- Be on the Newark platform before 6 PM (I plan to catch the 5:59), you understand why when we get on. If you're late, try to catch us at Orange Street or Franklin (we'll get off for a photo op & hang around for a while ... unless it's raining cats & dogs & red birds).
Don't forget to bring bail money for Unca Doug! :)
...but it won't be the same thing w/o the torture from the dwarfs and the 'Gilligan's Island' marathon....;-D
BMTman
Nah, you're going to come up here and ride the Selkirk Subway ... we'll warm up the VCR and put on some Andy Griffith for y'all. Heh.
Here's hoping they have PSC #6 on the railroad for the main event in its original paint job. I got plenty of time years ago on the Franklin Avenue loop, so I've got my nostalgia in already though sure wish I could get down there for the final curtain.
Wonder if "Joe Corpsman" is gonna break out his Kodak and make some movies ... have a blast and fer krissakes, PAY YER FARE this time! :)
Here's hoping they have PSC #6 on the railroad for the main event in its original paint job.
That is certainly their intention.
#6 on Tuesday
Now THAT'S the way I remember the Newark City subway, not that silly NJT logo and stripes ... no offense to NJT, but I remember a time before they came along. :)
#6 has an old fare collection machine and an old passenger counter on board.
I remember when the NYC busses had the exact same coin machine. PRECISELY the same one. And I can't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure when I rode them back in the late 60's early 70's, they were still in use ... I'd go out to Newark on Saturdays and just ride ... did SIRT (when the old B&O cars were still running) for the same reason. Got tired of just riding the subways ... the ferry and train out to the swamp was a real treat too.
Are there any of theise type of fare boxes available for sale ? i remember seeing this type of box a few years ago for sale for about $75.00 in a railroad magazine.......thanks
i on nunber 6 tonight. the fare box looks new brand new!!!
On the "Field Trip" we rode #6 & the operator let us ring up the fares. Someone took a photo of "Sparky" doing that, hope it comes out.
Mr t__:^)
Believe it or not, that is actually my personal favourite PCC paint scheme. I printed out some of chuchubob's pictures (I hope he doesn't mind) of it on the colour inkjet and left them in various locations around the house to make my displeasure with the current 'situation' here known. If it doesn't work well enough I might find the Sounds of Streetcars record and blast it at top volume tomorrow at 10:00PM to coinicde with the last PCC run in Newark. Actually, I think I'll do that anyways regardless... (A good cartridge on the turntable is as always useful for something, even if it isn't for playing music!)
>:[
-Robert King
I printed out some of chuchubob's pictures (I hope he doesn't mind)
Not at all; I'm flattered.
Isn't she a sweetie though? That's original company varnish too. A miraculous restoration ... sorry to say, I was never all that big on streetcars myself but the Newark City Subway was a genuine hoot. My first discovery of it was a surprise. I had taken a trip out on PATH and ended up at Newark Penn Station one Saturday. The way PATH worked at the time, you'd have to get off the train and go downstairs and pay another fare to go back.
So I decided to walk around the station, whereupon I saw signs saying "to subway" ... SUBWAY?!?!?! NEWARK has a SUBWAY? Gotta gotta ... so I went on down and sure enough, there was a platform and TRACKS! KEWL! OK, the platform was MIGHTY low to the ground and I thought that strange but it was kinda dark. Then I spotted the cyclops eye - TRAIN! Woohoo!
But it was only ONE car ... and it looked like ... a BUS ... whatta beat! Somebody took a BUS and put it on the subway. Had to be a joke. No joke. First encounter with a PCC. Got on, paid my fare and rode. Went back many times after that and found it just so WEIRD to ride a bus without a steering wheel. :)
And yes, back then, they were ALL painted like #6 though the paint wasn't as fresh and shiny ... hell of a nice ride though. Made me forget all the bad things I had heard about Newark ... and the people, the operators and everyone I encountered were SO nice ... went back for more. Often.
I love all types of transit vehicles. Hence my handle "TransitChuckG"
This includes busses, trolleys, trackless trolleys, and of course,
subway cars. I have to admit, the PCC's have a "feel" of their own
that's hard to describe. They were always quick & smooth. What a job those guys did back in the 1930's!
Chuck Greene
I'm strictly a steel wheels kinda guy ... there's enough rubber tires on the road. That was the saving grace once I realized it WASN'T a bus. I was born in 1951 and thus, came into the realm as it were as the last of the trolleys were disappearing off the streets of the Bronx and GM, bastards that they were, designed their busses to look JUST LIKE PCC's ... so as a kid, never noticed the difference. By the time I was cognitive, they were GONE ...
That's why the Newark Subway was a special treat to me ... the most amazing thing about them was how quiet they were ...
I was born in 1942 and have seen a lot of old stuff. You're right,
the PCC's were something special.
Chuck Greene
Heh. We're BOTH "old stuff" ... I can't get over how pretty #6 looked in Chuchubob's photos as well as RIPTA's ... and word is they're about to make a comeback in downtown Brooklyn, so it ain't over yet!
Kev:
How about all those repainted "ladies" on the "F" line in San Francisco? That must be neat to ride on a "different" cities car
everyday. My goal would be to get a ride on every one of them and snap a photo at the end.
Chuck Greene
Heh. Haven't been out to that "manly port" since ... hmmm ... 1969?
It's just me though ... I believe that if the earth moves, it should be ONLY because it was a REALLY great date. :)
Well, the Mets won it all in 1969. Plus man walked on the moon. Then there was Woodstock.
You and me both.
Is there any way i could get one of those posters about the last trolley in Newark? i'd like to know how much they are thanks much....Karl
photo of poster
On Thursday some of us we thinking of obtaining one of them, but then we're not that kind of railfan. I even said to the guy who was handing out pr stuff ... nice poster ... if he had given me any kind of indication that I could have had it, it would have been gone.
Mr t__:^)
It looks prettier in Bob's photos :).
Unfortunately, I'm a "late model" and have only ridden Newark's PCCs and 1001 at Shore Line (which I'll hopefully operate on 9/29!), but there's definitely something special about them. They would be unceremoniously torched or dumped in the water like the Redbirds if there wasn't. The Star-Ledger author put it best when he called them the '67 Corvette of railcars (even if I am partial to Thunderbirds ;)).
Don't go blaming GM, though; they almost completely stole that bus design from Beaver Coach.
Well, in the early 1950's you could only tell the GM busses from the PCC's by the number of headlights on the front. One was a trolley, two was a bus ... otherwise they looked EXACTLY the same ... later in the 50's they got a bit rounder in the windows and finally came those stupid fishbowls. :)
Stupid fishbowls??! Ooh, now you've done it! Roving bands of rabid BusTalkers are already chartered a couple of retired Grummans and are on their way upstate as I type.
I definitely agree on the similarity; I recently came across something in a junkyard that I was *sure* was a PCC or Brilliner, except debris was piled so high around it, I couldn't tell if it had tires or trucks. Turned out to be a Mack school bus.
You can tell almost right away if it is a bus or a PCC: look at the top for evidence of a cover surrounding the attachements for a pole.
-Robert King
I checked that, too, and it was hard to tell if a pole had been removed or not. I could barely make out an engine compartment in the rear, which finally tipped me off.
Grummans?!?! Hahahahah ... they'll never make it to Coxsackie. You're talking to someone here who lives in a land of Orions. We don't NEED no steenking busses ... but sure, if they can make a Grumman make the trek to Smallbany without a biggie towtruck, the beers are on me.
If you look at any late 1940's early 1950's movies with "Fifth Avenue Coach Lines" busses in it (hint: anywhere in Manhattan) you'll see how the old busses were connivingly designed to look just like PCC's ...
And let's face it, those fishbowls WERE dumb looking. But when I lived in the city, I'd rather walk than take the bus ...
Even though my birthday was 30 years later than yours, I still had the good fortune of being born in Toronto and living here, except for a brief time our family spent living in Boston for part of a year once, ever since so I grew up with a reasonably good sized streetcar network of which most of it is street running in the traditional fashion. When I was a kid, there were plenty of PCCs of several varieties mixed in with the newer CLRVs and the ALRVs which didn't show up untill the late 1980s (see footnote). The PCCs were always my favourite streetcars because I really liked the old design and the way they sounded and the way they rode; there's nothing like barreling over the complex trackwork of a large streetcar intersection in a PCC with all the sounds they make and the way they bounce up and down on their rubber springs.
I really had my hopes up for visiting Newark today and tomorrow to ride the PCCs there and take pictures of them but obviously the little 'situation' here obviously put an end to that wish. Sheesh. At least I know from reading the posts here that you and a lot of other people here have enjoyed the PCCs in Newark and that they haven't gone unappreciated.
-Robert King
You betcha ... my only regret is that Newark was a HELL of a long ride from the Bronx to get to them. When the Brooklyn trolleys start running, that'd be closer ... closer even than Branford ... at least there will still be some ...
Don't feel bad. I lived 18 miles north of Newark for 6 years and never rode on its PCCs.
And I had no idea they even EXISTED there until I found them by accident on a PATH train ride. Wonder how many folks here knew of the Newark #7 line before the Times wrote it up?
folks *here* as in on Subtalk?
Well we've had pages about the NCS for maybe 5 years...
-Dave
Heh. I knew THAT ... but given so many questions of things that are obviously right here on subway.org outside of subtalk, I would bet there's plenty of people who gas off here daily that had no idea Newark has a "subway" (even if not a BMT division) ...
Of course I knew it was here. Joe Korman is also a NCS nutbasket which is why I visit there as well ... and his PCC's MOVE. :)
That's why, as busy as I am, I drop by here EVERY day ... CNN, maybe once a month, ZDNet, maybe once a week. Dave old buddy old pal, this place is a CHURCH as far as I'm concerned! Bless ye, now go in peace. Heh.
Well we've had pages about the NCS for maybe 5 years...
I found this site's NCS pages before I found subtalk.
I first discovered it on my first PATH ride, earlier this year, shortly before the fare increase. I didn't make it to platform level until this past Wednesday.
QUITE the "hidden treasure" for a lot of NYC kids. Musta been nice having their subway all to themselves in secret for so long. :)
You should have lived in Philly. I was born in 1942 and rode PCC's
since I was old enough to remember. I even rode the old Brill single and double enders often. The PCC's were always quiet and smooth.
It's a shame they finally gave out in most cities. Now we have the
new,modern LRV's w/A/C which feels pretty darn good on a hot summer day. They are a snap to drive. I had my turn at SEPTA's open house at Elmwood depot many years ago. I thought I died and when to trolley car
heaven that day.
Chuck Greene
I saw PCCs in Philly during the only time I was ever there - May 10, 1970. They went right by the old Lithuanian Hall where we were.
I wonder if Branford Trolley Museum will get some of NJT'S PCC'S? I thought that they were in great condition for 50 year old cars. They make the RedBirds look like they're 60-70 years old. They will sure be missed. But it's out with the old and in with the new.
They have to go sometime. And to think that in 40 years from now, we'll be saying adieu to the R142s.
#13 Newark PCC
[I wonder if Branford Trolley Museum will get some of NJT'S PCC'S?]
Interesting idea ... we could make them a married pair #6 & 1001 ?
Mr t__:^)
From what I've heard, NJT really doesn't want any of them to leave their state ... at least until no other sites in Jersey want whatever's left. Given their length of service, I can understand the codicil.
I have no idea of how much work was done underneath the floor. But if it's anything like above the floor, they'll give who ever picks them up years of good service.
At Branford 1001 has done that for many years and only recently has needed some attention.
I would be interested to know if you COULD actually run a pair, one in forward & the second in reverse ... maybe you would have to tow the rear car ?
Mr t__:^)
Good question. I've read here that they _could_ be coupled and MU'd though there may have been a variation in the construction to accomodate that. I know there was some arrangement with the end skirts and cuts to allow a coupler and I would imagine each unit would require power and air/electric brake. Way outside my area though. I bearly remember what I got taught for R1/9's after so many years off the railroad.
You can see how the cars were MU'd by taking a look at the Shaker Heights sisters to the Newark PCC's. Twin Cities Rapid Transit retrofitted the couplers and MU controls to the formerly single unit cars prior to their shipment to Cleveland.
The Twin Cities/Newark/SHRT cars are all-electric, and therefore need no air connections.
Thanks Jan for the input. When I lived in Boston I saw many double PCC sets ... my question is could the set be pointed in opposite directions ? At Branford & many other short lines there is no loop, so with a car full of folks it's hard to operate backwards, even with a pilot in the back seat (speaking from personal experience).
We have a Brilliner that has poles on both ends, but she's not from NY, so she doesn't come out on our NY events, e.g. Sept 29 & 30th.
Mr t__:^)
Ah! GOOD POINT! Well, if you've got the mechanicals to do a multicar lashup, it shouldn't be such a horrible situation (IF you have the right cars with matched electrics) to build up a "dongel" or "adapter" to allow them to be "reverse MU'd" in the wiring. This *is* after all, simple DC crap - not like you're trying to run AC motors and need to be concerned with "rotation angles" ... If they'll run nose to cheek, I'm sure they would prefer cheek to cheek, it's simply a matter of wiring up the electricals (even if an adapter plate is required) to that you can reverse the tail and MAKE it fit ... not so out of the realm at all with the right wiring scheme for the lashup.
This has been done.
The TTC took two multiple unit PCC streetcars (all electric) and turned them to face back-to-back with the necessary modifications to do this to form a double ended railgrinding consist for - guess what - the subway system! Obviously, the PCCs had a few other modifications like 3rd rail pickups and platform level modifications to some of the doors in order to fit in the subway system. This thing was made at the same time as they made the current streetcar system rail grinding train, a pair of multiple unit PCCs facing front-to-back as normal.
Both PCC rail grinding trains worked the same way as far as rail grinding: one of the two PCCs in the consist had its trucks modified with solid, nonresilient wheels and the track brakes replaced with grinding blocks. The other PCC's trucks were left alone, complete with track brakes to provide the consist with high rate emergency braking.
The PCC subway rail grinding train got retired and replaced with two separate Gloucster units (which are A and B married pairs), each of which are spliced around a grinding trailer in this formation: A- custom built grinding trailer-B to make two grinding trains. It's noteworth that one of the Gloucster grinding trains is made up out of an aluminum G2 unit and the other is an original steel G1 unit that has been painted silver to match the other one.
The streetcar PCC rail grinding train still exists and is parked out behind the Hillcrest complex. However, it isn't used because some wizard high up in the TTC doesn't believe that streetcar track needs grinding. Interestingly, the streetcar PCC rail grinding train was made out of two ex-Cleveland Pullman PCCs (which finally became fully multiple unit in Toronto although Cleveland had planned to do this but then abandoned streetcars) whereas the subway PCC rail grinding train was made out of two of the TTC's bought new CC&F (class A7, number series: 4400-4499) multiple unit PCCs.
-Robert King
Had a feeling it wouldn't be brain salad surgery. :)
Robert, Thanks for the input. Something to talk up amoung the "trolley" guys at a local museum.
Having a PCC as part of the regular operating fleet becomes more of important part of the show for the public as they become scarcer in revenue service.
e.g. Seashore just acquired a Boeing LRV because it's the FIRST of the new breed of "trolleys"
Mr t__:^)
Another museum beat Seashore to the LRV punch. The Oregon Electric Railway Musuem got one from MUNI in 2000.
That's nice to hear that the "trolley guys" are still in the mode of acquiring trolleys/LRVs as they come out of service.
It would be a same if they got stuck in a before 1940 mode.
Mr t__:^)
This was considered by the folks up at Warehouse Point on two Picture Window cars they have, so that they could run them as a train and not have to perform backup operations. I think their electrical wizard had figured it out but they have other priorities.
1001 is an air-electric while 6 is an all-electric. There may be some compatibility issues.
Heh. Putting it mildly. Even *I* know THAT much. I've read here about if you combined R10's and R1/9's, all hell would break loose. I've SEEN them run back in my day though it was RARELY done, most often as a "push this pile of crap outta my damned territory" from a TMO. The only thing I can imagine is that somewhere in time, the SMEE's and AMUE's (most likely the SMEE's obviously) had their "wiring changed" in the electrical portion from their originals ... I don't claim to know much in this area, though I sure can read a schematic.
I can only surmise then that something changed over time. I've seen stranded R1/9's pushed by R10's, even pulled. Don't recall seeing adapters or weird siamese connects done, but I could be wrong. When I did school car, we were BLOWN through it like sheet through a goose and the old-timers were honked when we were done in 6 weeks instead of 6 months. And we didn't know SQUAT about what we were running, conductor school car and door sim, motorman school car and well ... don't smack the wall on the loop. So we went through what the OC's are going through now because of the rush to replace so many retirees bailing out ... but like I said, seen it done, don't know HOW it was done ...
At a museum you find work a rounds for such problems, e.g. our three car subway train last year (Lo-V, R-9, & Hi-V). Some are harder then others.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. When I saw that picture, I nearly crapped my pants. We're talking MONGREL CONSIST to the Nth there ... Ghods, how I wish you guys had four cars of R1/9's and enough flat room to do a CPW ... for all the annoyances and major heart-attacks I suffered daily in my job, the ONE THING that made it all worthwhile was kiciking the throttle to shunt and dropping the reverser key NORTHBOUND from 59th ... the southbound INTO 59th was somewhat restricted with timers and such, but that northbound twice a day made the trips worth it. No such exists now that they're gone.
What I'm saying is I'd be willing to settle for whatever's left. For me, it was the smell of the car when wet, the sounds of all those motors doing their thing, so many valves shouting out, "MY TURN!" and all those other things that made the sweeties special. Hell, you can't get off on the RUN any longer, NOBODY can afford that much land. And it was the TUNNELS that really made the noises special. You just can't get that same thing out in open air ... though I'm lucky, I got to charge mine at the layup yard or south of Brighton out in the open air. THAT too was "different" ... but it'd be nice if Santa could provide 6 miles of straight rail in an open cut with pillars. :)
The photos that Dave put up on this site of the D-Type trip made me feel like I made it. Plus one of my Brandord friends this AM sent me 40 odd of her shots.
BTW, I've heard that the problem with one of the sets at the end of that trip was just a fuse, so they'll be able to come out and play again.
Mr t__:^)
I brought up the notion of having a playmate for 1689 when I first visited Shoreline in 1980, and Eddie S. just laughed. He said he had to do enough arm twisting to get the powers-that-be to agree to acquire 1689. Seashore is lucky to have two of them.
You know where the R-1/9s could really strut their stuff? The mainline at IRM. It's a four-mile-long straightaway. Highballing, anyone?
I can imagine it must have require MUCH arm-twisting. For a place as well-sponsored as IRM is, compared to our east coast museums, subway cars can soak up a LOT of money to maintain and restore compared to trolleys. We're very fortunate indeed that even one exists.
Never been out to IRM, hopefully one day. But when the chance to get away occurs, for now, I'd rather put my time and money into one of the locals first.
Subway cars also gobble lots of power. I'm sure Shoreline's electric bill spikes when they run any subway cars or, say, North Shore 709.
I actually used to know how much an R1/9 single would eat and the number floored me ... I think it was 600 amps peak at 600 volts and settled down to about 300 amps or so when it was moving but I can't swear to it - one of many many details I've forgotten in 30+ years since I did it ...
But I can GUARANTEE you - nobody in their right mind with a "demand meter" hooked up is going to plug one in during peak hours, much less a CONSIST. No WAY. :)
There was a post a while back about coupling an R-9 with an R-10. You can do it iron-to-iron, but the electric portions need to be pulled back. There was more to it than that, IIRC. Being that as it may, they're still not compatible.
That would do it ...
Yes, Steve, you're right.
The R-9 had H2A couplers, the R-10 had H2C couplers.
You had to lock back the electric portion and close the brake pipe and straight air pipe angle cocks on the SMEE equipment.
OH! Forgot the point ... air/electric and elec/elec wouldn't mix ... that was one MU feature I know couldn't happen ... not without extensive modifications and reworks to one or the other "standard" ...
I am absolutely STUPID as far as PCC's go but I do remember reading that there was MU's routinely done and I *think* it required all-eoectric to do so ... but again, not my area of experience.
I know Boston had multiple unit air PCCs. I barely remember them on the green line from the time our family lived there briefly, for about three months. I was so young at the time that at the time I could only think about it in terms of: PCCs without oval windows coupled together underground in a streetcar subway! Let's go for a ride!
-Robert King
Multiple uniting 1001 with an all electric PCC (back to back so the driving ends face outwards in each direction for double ended operating) is going to be a huge headache, although I think I've been able to figure out how to go about doing it in general, except for the nitty gritty details.
-Robert King
Actually MU-ing 1001 with anything, air or electric, would be
major surgery. The car was not built as an MU car, it has no
couplers, etc. For that matter, neither does NCS 6.
I can't readily think of any examples of air cars that were MU.
In order to do that you'd need some sort of train air system
with a dynamic brake rate pressure transducer.
Huge hack job. I figured out one way in which someone might go about doing it but I DON'T recommend it at all. You'd be totally gutting the equipment on both PCCs to start with and hacking around rearranging it and wedging in a pile of custom built equipment onto both cars to interface with the whole mess and it would be just that - a mess, and the ride wouldn't be terribly smooth either but it would work. That project is somewhat like constructing the London Underground drag trains, each a modified unit of 59 stock, used to pull a unit/half train of 95 stock around unpowered, but with the driving controls active so that the whole train operated from the 95 stock end of the train in addition to the 59 stock end of the train; another hugely unlikely combination hacked into working.
Take a look in the MBTA section here for lots of pictures of multiple unit air PCCs like these:
-Robert King
It is fairly easy to take an all-electric single car and make
it MU. Many properties did that. Air cars are much harder.
Those Boston cars were delivered as singles. I'm not sure
what was done underneath for braking. They may have the simple
on-off friction braking using a lockout magnet valve with no
provision for graduating the friction braking. Since the dynamics
work down to about 2 MPH it isn't a big deal. Single-unit air
cars have a self-lapping type R-8 WABCO valve attached to the
brake pedal shaft which allows for infinite brake graduation.
Electric cars, regardless of being MU or singles, have only
3 discrete levels of friction braking
I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but I know that I've heard some arguments about why transit properties did or didn't convert their PCC's to MU and that some of the reasoning involved structural strength. I'm pretty sure that PCC's built for MU operation had stronger frames, yet there were some PCC's - notably the Shaker PCC's bought from St. Louis and Minneapolis - that were built as single cars and later rebuilt and used successfully as MU cars. Would this have entailed a complete rebuilding of the underframe as well as the brake and control systems?
PCCs didn't really have 'frames' in the traditional sense, but some modifications to more than just the cutting away of skirts on the ends of the cars would be needed to accomodate the addition of couplers, primarily to strongly physically attach them to the streetcar. I personally don't think a complete rebuild of the 'underframe', such as it is on a PCC, would be needed but it couldn't escape modifications, at least at the ends, either.
-Robert King
I don't know what they did to the braking on those air cars to multiple unit them, but I suspect that it would be a lockout valve to apply the air brakes once the dynamic braking falls off because it would work well enough and is quite simple. Personally, I'd do a variation on the lockout valve theme just to smooth out the air brake application somewhat.
-Robert King
I would defer to the authority on Boston PCCs, Gerry ORegan,
if he drops by this thread.
I had the same impression when I saw a PCC for the first time. It was in Toronto in 1963. They reminded me of those GM buses commonly used back then. It wasn't until 1981 that I actually rode on one, and that was on the J line in San Francisco. Their PCC fleet was falling apart then; the car I took back downtown died on the way. They had to let everybody off (OK, dump its load) and tow it back to the shop.
Did another trolley pick you up (his follower), or (ugh) did they send a bus to pick you up?
Chuck Greene
Don't remember for sure; I do know I walked the rest of the way. That PCC broke down on Market St.
Conversely, seeing buses, or rather pictures of them, that looked like PCCs was quite a surprise for me. I had thought that the body design was unique to the streetcars.
-Robert King
That bus body design must have GENUINELY honked off the electric railway presidents ... GM trying to make their interlopers look like what they were killing off so as to confuse the public.
Off the top of my head, the Presidents' Conference Committee only patented the PCC equipment, primarily the trucks and resilient wheels and possibly the other electrical and mechanical equipment but I'm not entirely sure of it and never did anything to protect the body design. I do know that the San Francisco 'Magic Carpet' cars had PCC bodies but the trucks were different and they were able to get away with it. I also remember hearing that Brill played fast and loose with some patents when they produced their Brilliners, which were their competition with the PCC because they never participated in the PCC project (and it was probably to their disadvantage too).
Since you brought up bus imposters, the things which truly annoy me are those buses that are constructed to look like 'a trolley' and are totally 100% gimmicky crap, which are used for tour service. We've got three genuine historic streetcars (2 PCC, 1 Witt) and the larges on street streetcar network downtown on the continent to run them on which means that no tour like that could be done anywhere else, yet all the tours of downtown are done using these illigitmate cheap heaps of rubbish. The company that was using the PCC for a while stopped because of low patronage; another good idea failing on account of nonexistant marketing and the irony is is that on the last run the PCC apparantly was filled to capacity!
-Robert King
Heh. I think I know why the transit authority has patent/copyright on their cars now. As to "jitneys" (those miserable trolley ripoffs on a truck frame) we've got 'em here too ... there's one that makes the rounds in downtown Smallbany and another that does a loop in one of the malls. Needless to say, "rubber tires, NFG" ...
Noplace to run a trolley here anymore. And once upon a time, Albany's "United Traction Company" (look it up, it's quite a historical tale actually) as seen in that miserable movie about Albany called "Ironweed" was a major player once upon a time ...
I don't mind tour buses at all, especially when they're in places that don't have a streetcar system (which is just about everywhere), but I really don't see the point in constructing them to look like 'a trolley'. I think it's unnecessary and they look incredibly tacky, even to non-railfans. Some of the most memorable moments on PCC fan trips is when the PCC and these truck/bus-cum-trolleys meet during their respective travels and the people on the tour bus stare at the real old streetcar and realise that they're riding on a cheap joke of a fake trolley.
I'll have to see what I can find on the UTC; any recommended book titles I should be looking out for?
-Robert King
This contrast is REALLY striking in New Orleans with the old St. Charles Streetcars.
Eric D. Smith
Yeah, I can imagine so. Alas, Albany was one of the first cities to say "Busses? KEWL!" and immediately stripped away the Brills, replacing them with Genuine GM. Apparently, United Traction Company was permitted to live for quite some time past the abandonment of trolleys in 1946, operating those familiar early GM busses that resembled PCC's.
Not much literature, since Albany is a VERY small city. About the best you can do for historicals is visit www.google.com and search for:
united traction albany
You'll get a decent amount of stuff to wade through. It's an interesting story of how the D&H railroad acquired a trolley company for a while and how far back it goes here in Albany to the days of horsecars and further back. Must have been QUITE amusing in winter.
Is this yahoo photo page a free service ? as i'd like to post photos as well,thanks Karl.
You can buy Newark City Subway tickets whenever you want. The 45 minute time starts when you insert the ticket into the time stamper.
Also, the ticket machines give change (Suzie B's) for 5's, 10's and 20's.
Thumbnails of my Newark City Subway photos from Tuesday.
This is a SubTalk Field Trip, nothing to do with NJT's plans for tommorrow "Last Ride" event.
If you want do BOTH, the last ride event will not allow you to get off and on to take photos (you would have to take BUS service to the stops to do that).
So come with us tonight for some photo ops, and ride with NJT on Friday for your real LAST RIDE.
I took the first of my three "last rides" last night... as chuchubob mentioned, it's getting pretty foamy, although I didn't see camera lenses popping out of the weeds along the ROW. Yet. There were a few video cameras in the front window of each car.
We rode #2 out to Franklin Ave, and on the way saw #6 leading a three car set back to Penn. When we got to Franklin, we waited and prayed that 6 didn't go out of service for the night... after a few more cars came in, one motorman assured us that 6 was the next car on the line. We weren't disappointed; this car is gorgeous. It literally looks like it just rolled out of the factory. Don't go trying to steal that classic farebox, now :).
While waiting at Franklin, I overheard quite a few individuals muttering "these must be the buffs..." and was even questioned by one woman to explain why I was taking pictures of these cars, and why anyone would want to remember them. I also met a woman whose grandfather was the president of Twin Cities Rapid Transit and made the decision to purchase these cars when new!
We rode back to Penn on #6, of course, hung around to take more pictures, and ended the evening with rodizio in the Ironbound. NO visit to Newark is complete without large amounts of Portuguese food :).
Here are a few photos from last night and a past trip. Hopefully, I'll catch up to the group tonight; if not, I'll wave as I pass by in the other direction :).
I noticed yesterday that access to the uptown local platform at the south end Penn Station crossunder was locked off. The express and downtown local staircases were open. What's the point of denying access to one of three platforms? The signs on the express and downtown local platforms didn't indicate that the transfer was only open part-time.
Maybe all trains were on the express track.
-Hank
On the contrary, many if not all northbound express trains were on the local track, but nothing on the express platform warned of this. Anyone waiting at the south end of the express platform who tried to cross under to catch an express on the local platform was in for a nasty surprise.
The sign over the staircase on the local platform implied that it was closed every weekend. The signs on the other platforms implied that the transfer was available at all times.
Maybe they're getting rid of the shit-smell, and it takes a few weekends fumigate. At least I hope that's what they're doing.
I thought that was on the platform, not in the underpass. All three platforms were open, only one wasn't accessible at its south end.
The South exntrance from the lower mezzanine is eprmanently closed. During hours that the upstairs level booth is open you can access the downtown local from the track 13-19 LIRR area by going up the stairs by the lIRR schedule rack. If that booth area is closed then enter at the lower level booth and keep walking toward what would be the middle of the passageway where you can enter all 3 platforms. The North crossunder is still open and can be accessed from the Notyh ernd of all 3 platforms.
I'm not talking about booths. I'm talking about the crossunder. It's still 100% there, but the part east of the express platform staircase is (or was) blocked off. Signs on the other two platforms still indicate that a transfer to the uptown 1/9 is available downstairs.
Recall that 34th Street is one of a few stations where many passengers have the option of taking trains on either of two platforms. They will often wait on one platform by a staircase and, if a train pulls in on the "wrong" track, will run through the underpass to the other platform. The best place to do this is at the near end of the platform (south end for northbound trains, north end for southbound trains), since there's a bit more time to make the run after identifying the arriving train's track. Anyone who tries that now will run into a temporary wall.
Many IRT stations have exits at only one extreme end. My home station's exit is at the far south end. While I'm waiting for the train, I usually walk to the appropriate end of the platform. With the new 34th Street setup, I can only do that if I commit in advance to taking the local or the express.
It's bad enough that this awkward platform arrangement is in use at all. Ideally, there should be annunciators in the crossunders and by each of the staircases so passengers have a chance to catch the next train; barring that, the TA should insist that doors be kept open an extra ten seconds. The TA just rubs salt in the wound by closing off parts of crossunders for no particular reason.
The station was built that way originally to keep people from transferring between express and local. IRT Penn and Brooklyn's Atlantic Ave were also were deliberately doen that way too.
If you'll examine the entrance by the LIRR they rearranged the layout to remove the free transfer between local and express at that location. If you go up one level you can still acess the downtown local
Could it be related to elevator installation/ADA construction work?
Hello everyone,
i am a filmmaker, interested in making a documentary on subways and its riders. i recently read stan fischler's "uptown downtown". there was a section written by a woman who ended up riding the entire new york city subway system and she did it in 26 hours. i am particularly interested in making this journey into a documentary. if anyone knows anyone who does this or has any other information of such an event, please contact me at:
chenhouse@aol.com. i would greatly appreciate any information, either a book or a website or anyone who is interested in making such a journey. i was steered toward this website by people working at the transit museum, and i'm hoping other subway fans can help this subway fan out.
thank you for reading.
It would probably take longer these days with all the reroutes. My guess closer to 30 hours. I may be a transit buff but I am not that crazy.
BTW - have you secured permission from the TA to film your doucmentary in the subway? They have some very strict rules about that (very image conscious).
http://members.aol.com/boitha/railway.htm#doall
thank you to jrr7 for the link.
chenhouse
Been there, done that.
And STIFF rules to boot'.
Hey guys, does anybody out there have any info about ridership #'s on the LIRR Branches?? Which branch has the most riders, least, etc???
At peak, all the trains seem pretty crowded, but I wonder what the #'s really are!! Tony
I don't have the statistics, but I'd bet that Bablyon Branch has the most passengers.
Fewest passengers (my guesses, not substantiated by statistics)
Montauk Branch
W. Hempstead
Oyster Bay
It would be interesting to see the stats.
Babylon is easily the busiest branch. I'm not sure which is #2 now. Ronkonkoma is a good guess, but Port Washington is also very busy.
The answers also are skewed by whether you consider Port Jefferson to be one branch or two (electric service to Huntington, diesel service to Port Jeff). Also some branches have many stations, others few. Huntington station is very busy but there are only three stations on the electric part of the branch. I don't know if they count ridership on the Main Line from Queens Village to Hicksville as part of Port Jeff or Ronkonkoma.
For lightest branches, I'm pretty confident that Greenport is the lightest, West Hempstead second lightest, Oyster Bay 4th. For fourth lightest I would guess Far Rockaway. Fifth Hempstead.
Anyone know for sure?
Babylon is easily the busiest branch. I'm not sure which is #2 now. Ronkonkoma is a good guess, but Port Washington is also very busy.
The answers also are skewed by whether you consider Port Jefferson to be one branch or two (electric service to Huntington, diesel service to Port Jeff). Also some branches have many stations, others few. Huntington station is very busy but there are only three stations on the electric part of the branch. I don't know if they count ridership on the Main Line from Queens Village to Hicksville as part of Port Jeff or Ronkonkoma.
As far as I know, Hicksville to Queens Village is considered part of Port Jefferson rather than Ronkonkoma.
I'd agree that Babylon is the busiest line. That's because many of the intermediate stations along the line are themselves very busy. Ronkonkoma station is far busier than Babylon station, but there are fewer intermediate stations along the Ronkonkoma line than along the Babylon line. In addition, except for Deer Park and possibly Bethpage, the Ronkonkoma line intermediate stations don't seem quite as busy as their Babylon line counterparts. Brentwood surely must be the only electric-served station on the whole LIRR with a free public parking lot that never fills.
I don't know enough about Port Washington to say for sure, but I sort of doubt that it's busier than Ronkonkoma.
For lightest branches, I'm pretty confident that Greenport is the lightest, West Hempstead second lightest, Oyster Bay 4th. For fourth lightest I would guess Far Rockaway. Fifth Hempstead.
Sounds about right. It's certainly hard to imagine a line with less ridership than Greenport!
As far as I know, Hicksville to Queens Village is considered part of Port Jefferson rather than Ronkonkoma.
Actually, the westernmost station shown in the Port Jeff Br. timetable is New Hyde Park. I think one or two Huntington trains a day also serve Floral Park, which belongs to the Hempstead Branch (together with Bellerose, Queens Village, and Hollis.)
For a while, New Hyde Park, Merilon Ave, and Mineola were shown on the Oyster Bay branch timetable, but most of the service was still Huntington trains.
:-) Andrew
As far as I know, Hicksville to Queens Village is considered part of Port Jefferson rather than Ronkonkoma.
Actually, the westernmost station shown in the Port Jeff Br. timetable is New Hyde Park. I think one or two Huntington trains a day also serve Floral Park, which belongs to the Hempstead Branch (together with Bellerose, Queens Village, and Hollis.)
You are correct.
Getting back to the line-ranking issue, I wonder whether Ronkonkoma would displace Babylon as the busiest line if the very busy Hicksville station were shifted to Ronkonkoma from Huntington/Pt. Jefferson.
According to the Recent Transit Transit news episode, they say that LIRR carries 85 million people a year. Thats 290,000 customers each weekday aboard 740 daily trains. Weekends its about 500 tho. Anyway the Mainline is busy tho between Jamaica and Hicksville. The Main line is actually the Ronkonkoma branch. The Port Jefferson trains take a medium clear diverging to the left while Ronkonkoma trains go all the way down the mainline till Ronkonkoma. Anyways, it takes over 800 electric multiple units and over 100 new Bi-Level coaches each morning for the capacity. 700 miles of track are maintained by the railroad
thats alot of tracks.
track 7 u have the all aboard
The Port Washington Branch is quite heavily travelled. My anecdotal evidence (not statistically proven) is that rush hour trains usually range from standing room only to sardine can conditions; midday trains have a fair number of seats filled, as do trains going to/from the city when there are events to go to. I have used the Bayside station numerous times, and have often found the inbound platform quite crowded; Douglaston less so.
Port Washington kind of falls off a lot of railfan's radar, maybe because it doesn't go through Jamaica.
It serves not only as a Long Island service, but also an ersatz subway for places that never got one. With 15-20 minute rush hour headways and 30 minutes most other times, it's pretty good. Also, the line features 11 out of 14 stations fully ADA-compliant (Auburndale, under construction now, makes 12) and with full-length platforms.
A suprising amount of people use the Flushing station as well even though the 7 is right there. Alot of people in Flushing can apparently afford the difference.
Yes, true. And they want the faster ride (which will be more reliable into Penn when they can finally complete East Side Access...
If you are willing to wait 9 years, the East Side Study FEIS, available on the MTA website, has the projected branch use for 2010. :-) Look at chapter 9B.
I just read on www.wmata.com under press releases, that the first 4 CAF cars will go into service Thursday, August 23, at 6:40AM at Greenbelt. Hopefully, more will go into service relatively soon. It should be interesting to see how they work going right into rush hour rather than breaking them in at night or sometime when the service is a little lighter.
Throw 'em to the wolves! MAKE 'EM SINK OR SWIM! Drop 'em right into the boiling oil! What other cliches can we think of?
:0)
They may as well. I wish I heard more of this other story that Fox 5 here in DC just had a commercial on about metro. Apparantly, there was a "runaway train" that wreaked havoc and trapped passengers inside, but I'm going to have to see where else I can find out more about it.
Thanks to Cricket, a cell phone service provider, light rail service in Denver was free all day this past Saturday, August 18. I took advantage of the opportunity and rode downtown all the way from the southern end of the line. The Park'n'Ride lot was almost full, and RTD was running 3-car trains along the entire line. Two-car trains are the norm except during peak hours on the Mineral-18th St. runs. After dropping off some film and photos to be copied, I rode out to the northern end of the line at 30th-Downing. They've added an extra ADA ramp at 27th St., and the trackbed for the Central Platte Valley Spur is taking shape. I checked out the Park'n'Ride lot next to the 30th-Downing station, and it's tiny. No big deal on weekends, but on weekdays, fuhgetaboutit. They must have turned down the volume on the PA inside the cars because the announcements aren't as loud as they used to be. Heading back to Mineral, the train was pretty full, so much so that the operator opened the frontmost set of doors onto the ADA ramp and let those of us up front exit quicker. People were just pouring out of the train. I can understand why - an express ticket from Mineral is normally $2.00. That's why I usually park at Englewood, which is past the fare zone boundary, and ride downtown for 75 cents off-peak.
How 'bout that? A cell phone service paying to provide free light rail rides for a day. Imagine if someone did that for the New York City subway!
BTW, do you know what plans Denver has for extension of its present line? Are they planning new lines?
There are extensions planned... see Denver Regional Transportation District for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Central Platte Valley Spur is slated to open next April. Next month, construction will begin on a 19-mile extenstion along I-25 at the same time that highway is widened (aka TRex). Other lines being studied:
A diesel-electric line from Union Station to Denver International Airport.
A second diesel-electric line from Union Station to Boulder.
A northwest line from Union Station to Arvada.
A west corridor from Union Station to Lakewood.
Extending the Southeast Corridor spur (part of TRex) from I-225 and Parker Rd. to Smith Rd. at I-70.
Extending the existing Southwest Corridor from its present terminal at Mineral Ave. further south to Highlands Ranch and possibly Castle Rock.
There is talk of a ballot proposal this November calling for a 0.4% sales tax increase to help finance all of this. If it passes, most of these lines being studied could be built during the next decade. Public support for light rail is growing in metro Denver. Every suburb mentioned wants the next line built to come to them.
And to think voters shot down a similar proposal in November of 1980...
Sounds like what happned in Portland Ore. light rail lines planned for all areas here in Portland,the airport line to open in Sept.
Denverites are finally beginning to realize that something has to be done about increasing traffic. Highlands Ranch didn't even exist when I came out here 21 years ago, and now it's one of the fastest growing cities in the country. The Southwest Corridor has succeeded beyond RTD's wildest dreams.
I for one am glad that Colorado has for the most part shed its "just say no" image.
Well, it's official. RTD unanimously approved putting that sales tax proposal on the 2002 general election ballot. We'll see just how strongly the public supports light rail.
usually this is done on days when new stations open etc..
Should this film be required viewing before a SubTalker is permitted to post??
Should this film be required viewing before a SubTalker is permitted to post??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely!
Uh oh, looks like I'm about to be exiled from Subtalk
If you like subways, you'll like Pehlam 123. All I can say is "get it".
Absolutely NOT! It's because of the knowledge gained from this list that I was able to understand that the TA couldn't possibly set all
the signals from 23rd Street to South Ferry to Green because of
grade timing.
If this rule was in effect, new members would never be able to post
questions.
But to be fair to your point of view, give me your address so I can
watch it on your VCR and get an education.
Michael
I recommend Pelham 123 to all Subtalkers. If you like subways, you'll love this movie.
If you like well-written, well-directed, reasonably plausible and intelligently acted movies, you'll like this movie.
That the subway is reasonably accurately depicted (much better than Money Train, in my opinion) is gravy.
Oh, and I thought the theme music and soundtrack were pretty good, too.
Well, given enough time, the TA could have disabled the grade timers, could it not? Of course, it wouldn't have enough time...
When I was watching the movie, it never occured to me that because of GT, the signals can't be set for all green. I guess anything is possible in a movie.
It's a reasonable compromise to make the plot work.
The timer at South Ferry is mentioned in the novel.
Nah. I think it's an assumption that every New York subway buff has seen it at least once.
A few of the newer posters seem not to have even heard of it!
I tend not to know much about movies made 10 years before I was born too. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
We'll cut 'em some slack.:-)
THE GREEN LINE: A TRUE INTERURBAN
Taking advantage of MBTA's offer of a $12.50 weekly pass which is valid on
all the subway, buses, and zone 1A & 1B of the commuter rail, I decided
that I would ride out on the Green line, D-branch (Riverside) the end of
which almost connects with the Amtrak/CSX mainline from Springfield MA to
Boston MA. Only after a few stops did I see the poster within the green
line vehicle which proclaimed: "Subway passes not accepted beyond Chestnut
Hill. Nice of them to tell us in advance, isn't it? Besides, it was
printed on the back of the subway pass that the pass is valid at "all
stations except Quincy Adams and Braintree" -- so does this mean Riverside
is not a station, nor is Newton Highlands? It would seem that MBTA's pass
policy is, "we'll let you travel from whichever stations we feel like, and
if we don't like it, then tough". Anyhow, I got to Riverside, where the
T/O removed everyone from the train. There being no one on duty at the
booth, I had no trouble exiting the station (and would not have had any
problem getting back in, had I chosen to travel fraudlently). However, I
was heading for the CSX main, which was a good mile away up Grove and
Hancock. Basically, you come out of Riverside station, take a right (and
duck under the line you just came in on), then walk for a bit. Soon, you
should be going over I-90 Mass. Pike, and the station is accessible from
the overbridge.
Before I talk about commuter rail, I will talk a little more about the
Green Line. The overground section of the Green line (that is, west of
Fenway), is operated from what looked like 600V DC overhead catenary.
The actual plant is a mixture of old and new, the catenary being a design
reminiscent of the IC electric and/or PRR electric. The more recent stuff
looks like constant-tension. I suspect the whole system was converted
over to constant tension at one stage, although knowing nothing about the
history, I am not qualified to comment. The catenary posts are painted
green, appropriately; some were more rusted out than others. At
Riverside, there is a big yard, similar to the yard seen at the north end
of the Broad St Subway in Philadelphia. The vehicles have what looked
like high-capacity emergency brakes that extend from the vehicle to grip
the rail. For all intent and purpose, Green line is a streetcar network
and not a real subway -- for example, people are actually allowed to walk
across the tracks at surface level stations! The alignment on the D
branch however, does make it look and feel like an interurban electric
car. When I first saw the map, my feeling was that the D branch was newer
than the rest and was extended retrospectively, but after actually seeing
it I suspect it was an original interurban alignment that was connected to
the streetcar network.
An interesting feature of the Green Line network was that all eastbound
trains terminated at Government Center, except D branch trains. This
means if you wanted to get from Boston College (B branch) to North
Station, you had to change trains at Government Center. Whether this is a
track-capacity concern or simply a fleet-utilization economy measure, I do
not know. Anybody with detailed knowledge of the signalling should drop
me a line.
As I was told, there was severe overcrowding on the Green line trains,
which made me wonder: why aren't those trains operating in multiple? All
of the trains I saw on Sunday are operating in married two-car pairs, with
pass-thru between the cars. It was very crowded when I travelled (about
3pm), with passengers being squashed against the doors. The load factor
did not drop below 100% until well west of Brookline. According to
platform markings, they also run one-car trains and three-car trains,
although the platform lengths appear to allow four-car running. I also
saw an "Emergency" green line train, which was painted white and had an
"Emergency" destination blind in red. I had no idea why it was out, but
it seem to be signalled and operated just like any of the revenue-earning
trains.
FARE COLLECTION ON MBTA
The MBTA has an interesting fare collection scheme. Here's how it works
(as far as I can determine):
(1) For boarding at any station on the "town" end of the line, the fare
would be low. For example, on the green line it is free if you board east
of Kenmore (I got to check this), and on the red line it is one token if
you board north of JFK/UMass.
(2) The net effect of this is, for people living close to town, a commute
to town will cost not very much, and for people living further away, a
commute to town will cost more, with the higher fare being paid on the
inbound leg. For example, if you lived on the Green line and paid your
fare at Riverside, it will cost you $2.50 to get into town, but you can go
home for free. If you lived in Quincy on the red line, it will cost you
$2.00 to get into town but only $1.00 to go home, so your fare is
effectively $1.50 each way. Pretty clever, because, this way they can
vend their tokens at $1.00 each. You just use different number of tokens,
depending on where you were going.
(3) Now here is the stupid part. The system works provided that you were
commuting to Boston town. But, supposing, for whatever reason, you needed
to get from Quincy to Braintree and back. This will cost you $4.00,
because both Quincy and Braintree are two-token stations. If you wanted
to go from Riverside to Newton Center and back, that round-trip will set
you back $5.00. You might as well walk.
(4) But you can also take advantage of MBTA if you live in strategic
locations. For example, to get from Davis (red line) to Airport (blue
line), this is like a major cross-town journey. But you will only be
charged $1.00 each way. You can probably even get places for free, if you
can really board Green line trains for free in town (I've seen it
advertised, but I have yet to try it). Basically, you can get on a Green
line train and transfer to the Red line, and you can go to Quincy for all
of $0.00 ZERO CENTS. Provided that you got someone to drive you back into
town, you've just managed to ride legitimately for free on MBTA.
(5) The other really weird thing is this: If they have decided to use
Tokens for their red line, why is the basic fare for the green line $1.25?
You actually need one token and one quarter to board a streetcar. They
also ask for exact change. It's kinda a pain, and there are change
machines everywhere for this purpose. Come to think of it, it would
probably have been cheaper to invest in a swipe/dip card system rather
than put these change machines all around the place. But then, again I am
not qualified to comment, as I don't know the historical background as to
why they were installed in the first place.
RED LINE: COMMUTER RAIL-ESQUE?
[Insert here some comments about how the Red line has commuter-rail
character towards the southern end of it.]
COMMUTER RAIL: IS IT SAFE?
I was very positively impressed with MBTA when I first came to Boston.
All the subway stations were clean, well lit, and heavily staffed. It is
also very well used, with people coming and going all the time. It seemed
to me like a well organized system -- there's even buses that come to meet
the subway trains. The buses act as "spokes" for the larger subway
stations on the red line which act as "hubs". However, this trip down to
Auburndale commuter rail station left me with the impression: "Why would
ANYONE want to ride commuter rail?" I remember my realtor telling me that
she doesn't let her son ride the commuter rail home anymore, and I
wondered why -- but now I know. We're talking about the Framingham line
which runs alongside the Mass. Pike I-90 (the other lines may be better,
but I am basing what I say on what I saw). The design of the three
commuter rail stations I saw (Auburndale, Newton West, Newtonville)
appears to be:
(1) one set of stairs leading from an overbridge onto the platform, which
is fenced off from I-90 on the south side, with a very high,
non-see-through fence, and is down an embankment on the north side from
the nearest road, Washington.
(2) The station consists of a shelter, a few benches, and is unstaffed.
There is also an MBTA information board -- featuring an LED display. No
phone. No emergency button.
(3) At the opposite end of the platform some 300 yds away, there is a
similar set of stairs that led up to the next overbridge.
The station appear to be in general good order -- graffiti are painted
out, and there appears to be little damage. However, it is so obscure
(all three stations) and so impossible-to-see-from-anywhere that even I
considered it an unwelcoming place to hang about. Now, I am not one of
those safety paranoid types. I slept outside South Station on a bench
several nights while I was looking for an apartment. However, when I was
waiting for my train at Newtonville, I opted to stand on the approach-side
overbridge and run down the stairs when I saw the headlight of the train
to flag it down. It's that scary. I didn't want to hang about down
there. Think about it this way -- what would you do, if someone started
coming down the stairs when you're sitting there minding your own business
on the bench, esp. if you were a female railfan? Trains run every three
hours -- so don't expect that anyone is likely to see you. Even if you
had a cellphone -- what exactly are you going to do with it? How do you
even KNOW if this guy is just here to catch a train, or if he had other
intentions? They tell disabled motorists to "stay in their car" on the
Mass. Pike if they break down, because of the personal safety risks. I
don't understand how anybody could be expected to wait for a train at any
of those stations for more than 30 seconds.
FRAMINGHAM LINE -- NO FREIGHT
For all of the two hours that I walked along the Framingham line, I did
not see a single freight train. I only saw two MBTA trains, one of which
I boarded to get home. I guess I was kinda disappointed. An MBTA hostess
told me that Framingham is the big freight hub, and if I took commuter
rail out there someday, I should see some yard work and some run-through
freights for Boston Port. I guess I will try that some other day.
Incidentally, she also told me that the Framingham line is basically CSX
owned -- at least west of a junction in Allston, it is CSX property, all
the way from Springfield MA. She also said something about a preserved
Cape Cod Seashore Lines operation, which I would go into more details when
I can.
Incidentally, while we are talking about freight, I've found out that
there are a few trains on the CSX line that crosses Mass. Ave. in
Cambridge at grade. The Amtrak repair facility uses that line to move
coaches between North and South station, and a freight usually comes
through between 2pm and 3.30pm. A local freight also comes through
between 5pm and 6pm. I have not seen any of those trains, but I will sure
be hanging down there one afternoon when it's not so hot. The
infrastructure looked so disused that I didn't think any trains actually
go through there at first. But apparently they do.
Anyway, that's all for today. Enjoy the week -- and I'll be coming in
with more Boston Railfan reports as and when time permits.
Lexcie
The basic fare for the Green Line, like most of the MBTA rapid transit network with a list of exceptions, is $1.00. I think you must have paid $1.25 somewhere on the D branch, where there are zones (it goes much farther than the other branches).
The D branch was a steam commuter rail line until 1959, when it was converted (due to its relative independence from other rail traffic). Vehicles were effectively borrowed from other streetcar service around Harvard Square which then became trackless trolley. I think many local bus routes dried up as a result--making it something of a tradeoff. But daily boardings skyrocketed on the line.
The Green Line operated using streetcars until the mid-1980s, when it was converted fully to LRVs. Like the Newark City Subway, part of the Green Line was built for heavy rail rapid transit, but funds weren't there, and it was tied into the existing streetcar tunnel to form one larger tunnel. Temporary inclines became permanent ones, and the street network was cut back gradually along with changes to the city, reducing the number of routes serving the central subway.
You can see the out of service commuter trains and short freight trains crossing Mass Ave in Cambridge on the north-south "Grand Junction" connector. I see them all the time--they indeed do run!
Boston's commuter rail is varied: there are lines with passenger information at stations, with handicap access and new waiting rooms, while not so on other lines. The MBTA web site has up-to-date information on commuter rail delays.
Different routes terminate in different places in the Green Line subway--not so unusual, especially with MUNI offering similar service. The routing scheme is changed every few years due to construction. The operational difficulty of the Green Line is that one trains enter the subway out of sequence, it is difficult to correct the problem. In MUNI, the institutional barriers to swapping the routes of two trains were overcome along with the installation of ATO technology.
Signaling on the Green Line is wayside without trip-stops, mostly through conventional absolute block control lines and I think a couple of timer signals here and there. An AVI system with 35 detectors tracks trains, but without too much precision because the detectors are far between. The AVI system also does route selection at switches.
<< The D branch was a steam commuter rail line until 1959 >>
Correct. The line between Riverside and Boston was a busy commuter branch of the Boston & Albany, later absorbed by the NYC.
I know the NYC continued passenger service on the line behind diesels through 1967.
I know the NYC continued passenger service on the line behind diesels through 1967.
You had to mean 1957, the line opened to Riverside with PCC trains in 1959.
<< I know the NYC continued passenger service on the line behind diesels through 1967.
You had to mean 1957, the line opened to Riverside with PCC trains in 1959 >>
Yeah. Slip o' de old finger.
The AVI system also does route selection at switches.
The switches are operated by "pan" detectors in the overhead, which are simply a resistor through which the power being drawn through the car passes. If the power exceeds a preset limit, a relay is activated, which causes the signal system to set the switch for the right hand option. Otherwise the relay is not activated and the switch is set for the left option. There are three ways to select the switch for "RIGHT" One is to have the motors powered as the pantograph passes over the pan. The second is to throw a "Track Switch" Switch on the dash of the car which inserts a fixed resistor across the trolley circuit, drawing enough current to activate the switch. (This is the preferred and safest method) The third is to forget about the pan, stop, open the doors and push a wayside selector button. When this option is chosen there is a time delay built in to allow any other traffic cleared through the interlocking to proceed before the switch is reset. Trailing switches are set by a first come first served automatic system.
The Green Line subway was designed for streetcar operation from the beginning, but elevated trains were operated there from 1901 to 1908. During this period, the outer tracks between Broadway Portal and North Station were used for the el trains while the inner tracks continued to be used for streetcars. Temporary wooden platforms were used at each station to permit level boarding of the el cars.
The idea of converting the streetcar subway to rapid transit operation, as was done on the Blue Line, was considered as late as the 1960s, and the present Kenmore Station, opened in 1932, was equipped with high platforms on the Commonwealth Avenue tracks as preparation for a later conversion. The loop at Kenmore was designed for Beacon Street cars to reverse there, after transferring passengers to the high platform trunk line. The tracks from just east of Kenmore to Blandford St. portal were built on a trestle to bring them up to platform level, with the trestle rising to street level from the level subway floor at the portal. This would allow an extension of the subway out Commonwealth Av. when the new line was built. The clearances in the subway west of the Public Gardens are much more generous than those in the original portion, also a provision for future rapid transit service. The trestle work was removed and the grade raised west of Kenmore in recent years due to heavier cars now in use.
There are three types of car now in service on the Green Line.
LRVs (3400-3543) were built jointly for Boston and San Francisco in 1976-78 by Boeing-Vertol and feature flat ends, flat panels at the articulation, and a fairly smooth roof line. They use hand control, and run in trains of up to three cars. Of 175 originally ordered, 135 were delivered before the order was cancelled due to various problems with the equipment. Later, San Francisco took some of the undelivered cars before Boston claimed the last 9. Replacement of couplers, air compressors, air conditioning units, wheels, major articulation components and the entire door system have made the remaining 55 LRVs reliable backbones of the Green Line Fleet.
Type 7s (3600-3719) were built in 1986 and 1997 by Kinki-Sharyo of Japan, using funds gained from the settlement of lawsuits arising from the LRV order. Unlike the LRVs which were designed as a compromise between the needs of two cities, the Type 7s are a Boston car and resolved many of the problems encountered with the LRVs. They are identified by their rounded ends, split windshields, and simple bellows articulation. Two pedal foot control is used along with folding doors. (The LRVs were delivered with plug doors similar to those on RTS buses, but with a much more complicated mechanism.) The Type 7s were sucessful from the start and suffered none of the teething pains encountered by the LRVs. The initial hundred were so successful that an additional 20 were odrered ten years later, to help the system through the break-in period for the Type 8s.
The Type 8 car evolved from a need to make the Green Line handicapped accessible, and are destined to replace the aging LRVs. The cars (3800-3899) are being built by an old-line carbuilder, Breda of Italy. They are a low-floor design between their motor trucks, including the articulation and its supporting trailer truck. The trailer truck has been the source of most of the cars initial problems, with a penchant for derailment at unexpected locations. (A bad one happened yesterday, though I don't have the details, it was on the line where the Type 8s run). Such derailments were also one of the LRV's initial problems, but those happened in predictable locations such as on tight curves and switches. Much of the trouble may arise from the design of the truck, which has a separate stub axle for each wheel to allow the low floor to continue through the articulation. They are among the first (if not the very first) cars to use this design, and are serving as a proving ground for the technology. Type 8s have a narrow flat end and hand control, like the LRVs and are boxier in appearance than either of the two older groups. The controls and multiple unit equipment on the Type 7s are being modified to allow the two classes to run in multiple, insuring that most trains will have at least one accessible car. The LRVs will continue to run by themselves.
A final note: Boston's Green Line cars are all two-section articulateds, and are not equipped for passage between cars. Each unit is a single, three truck car which bends in the middle, which is where you report 'passing between cars'
Best Wishes...
Gerry O'Regan
>>In MUNI, the institutional barriers
to swapping the routes of two trains were overcome
along with the installation of ATO technology.
<<
No actually. MUNI is very bad on this issue. They DID write a new clause into the lavor agreement last year getting rid of the (IMHO) absurd premium paid to reassigned operators. (note three of five lines terminate at the same station at the outer end!) Even with this easing of 'rules' MUNI still has the same problem--if traffic on the surface screws up service, recovery is very hard in the tunnel.
That sad, I have observed some better dispatching in random recent usage during rush hour. (you can watch the follies from home at nextbus.com in real time.
For example, on the green line it is free if you board east
of Kenmore (I got to check this),
I think you can only board the Green Line for free when boarding outbound trains at surface stops.
(3) Now here is the stupid part. The system works provided that you were
commuting to Boston town. But, supposing, for whatever reason, you needed
to get from Quincy to Braintree and back. This will cost you $4.00,
because both Quincy and Braintree are two-token stations. If you wanted
to go from Riverside to Newton Center and back, that round-trip will set
you back $5.00. You might as well walk.
There are supposed to be exceptions for local riders between these kinds of stations. I think (at least on the Red Line) that you get some kind of special ticket that indicates where you got on, and you show it on exit to get the reduced fare.
(5) The other really weird thing is this: If they have decided to use
Tokens for their red line, why is the basic fare for the green line $1.25?
The basic fare is $1. A few of the further Green Line stations charge extra fare. (After all, you can enter at Park St through the same turnstiles for either the Green Line or the Red Line.)
As for commuter rail, try some other stations. Those you saw along the Mass Pike are among the least attractive in the entire system.
<< As for commuter rail, try some other stations. Those you saw along the Mass Pike are among the least attractive in the entire system. >>
Agreed. The MBTA has done a good job over the years of renovating its commuter rail stations. Judging the system by the three Mass. Pike stations is like criticizing the entire NYC subway car fleet based on a single ride on a rusty R-26. The new Old Colony lines to Middleboro and Plymouth are the system’s shining jewels, many of the Attleboro Line stations were rebuilt as part of the Acela/Northeast Corridor electrification project, and the Needham Line was completely rebuilt during its 1978-1987 shutdown. Most of the other lines feature a mix of unrebuilt stations, older stations renovated in place, and new replacement stations (Salem and Framingham, for example).
For future trips, I would suggest checking out the Rockport line (very picturesque, including old depots at Swampscott, Beverly Depot and Beverly Farms, and especially the drawbridge at Manchester-By-The-Sea) and the Franklin Line (featuring a classic depot at Walpole). The Framingham Line does have a few nice locations out beyond the Mass Pike trackage - I like the old depot and street crossing at Ashland. This is strictly a 'car only' location for now, though, as the new Ashland station on the Worcester extension has not yet been opened.
Jim D.
Also try the new Anderson Regional Transportation Center in Woburn, on the Lowell Branch. It's a brand new station, with a new "old style" depot building. And $1/day parking :-)
I checked out the Framingham new station the other day. I saw that they obviously redid the station to comply with ADA, but decided that it was cheaper to sell the old station for conversion into a bar, then build a new station some 300 yds further down the line (away from town center) and built a basic functional station.
Whilst I applaude MBTA's efforts in providing a very nice and modern station facility with parking and an elevator crossing, personally I would still have preferred the old station. However, I think in this case the their hands were tied by the ADA regulations -- the same regulation that allows horses to board Amtrak trains.
I will be checking out more of the MBTA commuter rail stations. Following my trip to Framingham, I already like what I saw better than the Mass Pike ones.
Lexcie
The Framingham depot building has been used as a restaurant for many years. I don't know how long it's been since the building was used for railroad purposes. However, the MBTA/Amtrak platform was located adjacent to the depot until the new station was recently built.
Jim D.
...many of the Attleboro Line stations were rebuilt as part of the Acela/Northeast Corridor electrification project...
*sigh* Now if only Pawtucket-Central Falls could be renovated and reopened :). Not that it would serve much purpose, which is why it closed in the first place...
Why wouldn't it serve much puropse? Is the South Attleboro station close enough to Pawtucket to serve commuters who live there well?
Why wouldn't it serve much puropse? Is the South Attleboro station close enough to Pawtucket to serve commuters who live there well?
Either South Attleboro or Providence, depening on where in the city you live. The parking lot at Pawtucket-Central Falls isn't particularly large, either (although there are plenty of empty lots in Central Falls that could become parking garages...).
There is a GM - EMD F3 locomotive just outside the platform area of GCT, and I believe it is parked on track 31. It looks great in New York Central livery, but what is it doing there? Is some sort of fan trip being planned for it to be used? I do not think that an FL-9 was ever painted in that style, as they were all New Haven Railroad property, so what gives?
The locomotive has been parked there at least since last Christmas. I don't know why, but it's obviously not for a fan trip....
It sounds like 1 of 2 FL9s painted NYC a year or 2 ago for a fan trip. No, NYC never owned an FL9, but for some odd reason they decided to 2 paint 2 in that scheme.
probably their as a rescue unit in case something dies - though so far as i know the old gp8 is the power for that...
Could be privately owned.
Sometimes private equipment shows up in the city.
Once remember some private varnish that tied up in Penn Station.
There was a party on board, and some of the revelers climbed up to the roof.
OPS.... Pitty.
Elias
Two FL-9's (2012 and 2013) were painted in New York Central "lightning stripe" paint schemes a couple years ago. IIRC, one of them was NOT in operable condition. Perhaps this is the one, just being parked at GCT for safekeeping??
There's an FL-9 painted that way at Danbury...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I asked a friend about them; he says they were painted for a fan trip celebrating the anniversary of the opening of "Peekskill, Fishkill, one of those Kills up there," basically because "some dignitaries wanted to take a joyride." Something burned out on one of them, and he thinks that one went to Danbury. I take no responsibility for the accuracy of any of this...
The one that is in Danbury does have some problems (cracked water jacket, IIRC) so that would make sense.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone know when (if) R142s will be assigned to the 7 line?
They're not supposed to be assigned to the 7 at all. The 7 will be getting second-hand R-62A's because:
1. The Corona yard doesn't have specialized maintenance equipment needed for the R-142, such as the cranes for removing the roof-mounted air conditioners;
2. Since there are still single-unit R-62a's, this class of rolling stock is better suited for 11-car consists required for rush-hour Flushing Line service.
There was also a problem concerning the R142/R142A's third rail contact shoes. Trevor was telling me about it some time ago when the TA tried to place an R142A on the 7 during the Subway Series. He said it was horrible. So much for seeing R142s on the 7. ONCE AGAIN, THEY WILL NOT BE ON THE 7 LINE!!!
CWalNYC
carlwal@hotmail.com
The R-142 has no problems operating on the 7 line. The third rail on the Flushing line is NO DIFFERENT than the third rail any place else.
Hey its not the 3rd Rail problem It was the Steinway Tubes Not enough clearance after the First ave switch.
If this is true, this is PRICELESS ... nobody brought a tape measure when they wrote the "detailed specifications?" Nah ... this is too hard to accept (though I wouldn't be surprised) ... this smells like a case for ... D Train Dude ...
Izzis so?
Yes, it's too bad it's NOT TRUE.
It'd make for a HELL of a thread though, gotta admit that much. It'd keep Sallamallah in glory for years. Heh. DANG! Another one bites the dust.
GO GO GO GO REDBIRDS !! ( how about that south ferry ) !!!!
@ fighting to keep the railfan window !! ......lol !!
if the Corona yard were to get their own sets of R-142's, it would come up on a boat
"Hey its not the 3rd Rail problem It was the Steinway Tubes Not enough clearance after the First ave switch. "
R/T the flashing, it was probably caused by new shoes... they thak a bit to wear in, I guess.
I read (here) that there as an alignment problem cause by the reseating of some of the tracks during a repair once upon a forgotten time, and that the some of the doorlights were stripped off of some R-62s (?) but that this has been repaired.
The reason we don't put new cars in Flushing is to upset certain railfans who think that their line is the greatest, and who complain that their line never gets any new cars, forgetting that up until the R-62s their line *always* got the newest cars.
Ach..... I remember when the R-33s were NEW, and how great they looked on that line. I thought that tese were surely the hights of subway technology.
Bye Bye Redbirds.....
Anybody want to go fishing!
Elias
I love New York and as a railfan I'm crazy about the Brooklyn Broadway El. Yet whenever a native New Yorker speaks highly of another place he's considered a traitor. New York may be as some would claim, the center of the world but there are many worlds and New York is certainly not the center of all of them. Chicago is a wonderful place and I can say this in part because it was in New York that I learned to appreciate rapid transit and architectural beauty. Because I was born in New York I developed an appreciation of these things and was inspired to seek out that which was similar in other places. In regards to Chicagoans the reverse is also true for they too can learn something from us. Every city in every part of the world has something to be drawn to and something to avoid. They capture the essence of ourselves for they embody all of our virtues and all of our vices. To be a New Yorker and admire the Ls and architecture of Chicago is not to demean one's heritage but to enhance it. Our hearts and our minds must be large enough to embrace beauty and achievement in all its forms and regardless of its origin. To do so is to capture the essence of living, the true meaning of being alive, and there can be no greater tribute to our hometowns than that.
Eric Dale Smith
well said!
Wow, that was profound... Brought a tear to my eye. :-)
In the spirit of New York-Chicago relations, I'm offering the following two lists of what each city should learn from the other. Just to show I'm a fair-minded person, I'll start with...
What Chicago should be learning from New York:
How to built an extensive transit network that covers almost every major part of the city almost all hours of the day and night.
How to assemble a winning baseball team
How politicians can have a higher civic mission than merely paying off friends and cashing in favors.
How to build some really incredible bridges (Chicago's drawbridges are cool, but give me Hell Gate or the Brooklyn Bridge)
How to create a dense, thriving urban landscape such as Broadway on the Upper West Side
How to build and preserve a gem such as Coney Island
How to built subway trains with real air brakes
How to make a real reuben sandwich
How to have a bit more pride and confidence in their city
What New York should be learning from Chicago:
How to build a subway line to an airport
How to preserve a ballpark that doesn't feel like a parking garage
How politicians can competently manage basic municipal functions
How to build alleys so as to avoid having to step over rotting garbage on the way to work
How to develop truly native styles of music, art and architecture rather than merely copying whatever is fashionable in some other city at the time.
How to build beautiful yet affordable urban residential neighborhoods
How to paint taxi cabs colors other than yellow
How to make a real deep-dish pizza.
How to have a bit more humility about their city compared to others.
Additional suggestions welcome!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, as a fan of thin, oily New York pizza, I claim that Chicago should learn how to make that too! Serve it side by side with the deep dish. BTW, I've eaten at Eduardos under the El. Good stuff.
Ron is right...real pizza ain't deep-dish, bub. Although, Chicago deep-dish is darn good!
I like Chicago.
I remember when I joined the Navy back in '66...
I rode the RR train to Whitehall Street.
(Actually I must have taken the F to 34th first for I got on at Rock Center, where my Father worked at the time)
And then they put us on the PRR is sleepers no less for the ride to Chicago.
After so many weeks into boot camp, we were allowed to have a day's pass, and I went to Chicago to examine their trains, and before returning to the base, I stopped at a fancy steak house for a fancy steak. Somebody in the resturant picked up the tab. I was so shocked I did not know what to do or to say, and hardly was able to mumble a thank you.
So when I am in Chicago (usually just to change trains... From the Empire Builder to the Lake Shore Limited) I usually am generous with those in need.
Elias
Good for you!
I stopped at a fancy steak house for a fancy steak.
George Diamond's, by chance?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"George Diamond's, by chance? "
Oh My, I haven't a clue!
Elias
The reason I ask is that George Diamond's (on Wabash, under the 'L'), is, or at least was, considered one of the best around... it's been there for more years than I can remember. I last dined there when we lived in Chicago in 1978 but it's still around, according to Switchboard. Their definition of rare might as well be "fresh from the cooler, we put it on a warm plate and show it the fire as we walk past the grill" and their well done steaks are "cinders". Anywhere in between is excellent, though... nice, thick, well-aged... now I'm getting hungry... do they deliver to New Jersey?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Their definition of rare suits me just fine.
Out here (in North Dakota) good meet is just imposible to get
(Hell we send the good stuff to NYC where you suckers will pay $50.00 a plate for the stuff)
Out here they use a potter's kiln to cook what is left.
Or as I say: Knock the horns off of it and serve it up!
Elias
Or as I say: Knock the horns off of it and serve it up!
You and my wife! Me, I prefer to eat my beef, not have a conversation with it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
{How to paint taxi cabs colors other than yellow}
Actually, taxi cabs in New York City were painted other colors besides yellow up until the late 1960s (check out the film version of Mel Brooks' "The Producers" to see a 1968 example). The NYC Taxi & Limousine Commission decided that, because of the `gypsy cab' problem, medallion cabs would be painted yellow and only medallion cabs could be painted yellow, in order to diifferentiate between the licensed and unlicensed cab services.
How to have a bit more humility about their city compared to others.
Chicago has a lot to be humble about. :-)
And so does New York.
Eric D. Smith
As for bridges, give me the Skyway and I'm happy. It feels funny driving across it now after going over it so many times as a kid when coming from or going to South Bend. It's an old and dear friend to me; you could say we grew up together. I still remember that humungous gas tank which stood right next to it on the south side of the main span over the Calumet River.
Tsk, tsk. A railfan uses the South Shore Line (or whatever they call it today) to travel between South Bend and Chicago. I believe the Skyway's designation as a "bridge" was some sort of legal mumbo-jumbo that was of advantage to its builders.
I rode the South Shore once just before we left South Bend on a round trip to Chicago on April 1 and 2, 1967. They still went all the downtown to Michigan St. and LaSalle Ave. back then.
Today, I passed it at 8:04 AM on a Manhattan-bound R-32. I say workers on it doing work with a mess of wires that were strung through ~3 cars... could this be repair? Coming home, it moved from 18th Ave to 20th Ave.
I remember reading an article a while ago in which a cyclist came up with a theory. He said it would be possible to pedal a bike at a speed of almost a mile a minute if following behind a train (In this case LIRR). I remember seeing a picture of the cyclist speeding behind some old LIRR train and wood planks between the rails so the cyclists wheels wouldnt get caught in something. Is there any way I can get some more info on this experiment?? If not how about some pictures?
That test has been done behind cars too. The vehicle preceeding the bike provides a windbreak (at higher speeds, any vehicle begins to fight air resistance. I believe the top speed reached was somewhere around 70 mph this way, using a windbreak vehicle and optimal gears on the bike.
Calling Stephen Baumann! Can you supply the equations?
Ive done the same thing following buses (But not going that fast). But it is interesting to see it done behind a train.
It was done a century ago.
Pursuit of this type of bicycle speed record has not been popular. However, John Howard, an American racer, revived interest about 20 years ago. He went to the Bonneville Salt Flats and used a race car as the pace vehicle. His record was 152 mph. This has since been bettered by Dutch rider Fred Rompelberg, who was clocked at 166.94 mph in 1995.
There's a historical marker at the Babylon LIRR station commemorating this event.
There's a historical marker at the Babylon LIRR station commemorating this event.
That marker was originally on the Central Branch at the site of the event. It has since been moved to the Babylon station.
This is why birds fly in formation. Each getting a lift from the one in front of it. The lead bird falls back every once in a while to give another bird the lead and to get some rest back in the pack. (Or is it a Flock?)
Elias
'Mile-A-Minute Murphy' was the dude who could keep up with a LIRR train.
The secret was: he keep right behind the train close enough to be 'inside' of the wind tunnel drag from the last car. Clever character, besides being a damn good biker...
BMTman
WOW!!!!!!!11 Thanks for the info guys. I actually follow NYC buses because they have the same effect on my bike (Or any bike). When Im in their 'slipstream' I can save a lot of time riding just less than 2 feet from a buses bumper (I dont need to hear the comments about the bus making a panic-stop lol). I am an excellent rider and can accelerate rather quickly on my bike (2.5 MPH per second while accelerating). So I can keep up with many large objects.
Thanks for the info guys. I actually follow NYC buses because they have the same effect on my bike (Or any bike). When Im in their 'slipstream' I can save a lot of time riding just less than 2 feet from a buses bumper (I dont need to hear the comments about the bus making a panic-stop lol). I am an excellent rider and can accelerate rather quickly on my bike (2.5 MPH per second while accelerating). So I can keep up with many large objects.
It's not worth the risk. Here are some factors you are ignoring.
1. NYC pavement is not smooth. If you are keeping up with a bus at 22 mph and are 2 feet off the bumper, then you cannot see the road condition. A pothole will eat up your front wheel. The usual result is a broken collar bone. You'll also trash your front rim - I don't know which is more important to you.
2. Bicycle brakes are very poor and will never get any better. It's a question of the high center of gravity and short wheelbase. You may be able to out accelerate a bus (but not a PCC). The bus can stop much faster than you. If you miss the brake light because you are concentrating on the potholes, then you'll crash into the back of the bus. That's a bent fork and possibly a bent frame. You've just trashed your bike.
3. Motor pace vehicles are equipped with a roller in the back. If the front wheel touches this roller, the front wheel keeps moving. If your front wheel touches the bus bumper, the front wheel will stop turning. Angular momentum will be conserved, so you will take a header. The speed difference of 1.4 mph between you and the bus is enough to make your front wheel touch from 2 feet benind in 1 second.
The avenue lights are timed at 22.5 mph. If you are a good cyclist, you should be able to maintain that speed without drafting behind a bus. If you want some motivation for doing it the hard way, think of it as a time trail.
there is a picture of mile a minute murphy in Ron Ziels book on the LIRR, entitled " Steel Rails to the Sunrise"
1. TRUE not all of NYC pavement is smooth. But I only draft when Im aware of the road conditions ahead. Like riding in my neck of the woods in the Brooklyn/Queens areas. I have an average speed of 15-20 MPH with a headwind. Drafting behind a bus will increase my speed to 25, 30, 35 sometimes even 40 MPH when its later in the evening. And there are some stretches with few lights near my area where I have done that. Potholes are a different story. True they are a hazard but If the front wheel of a bus hits one the body and Windows of the bus will make that shaking shound that I am so used to hearing. That usually is a sign to just veer off course a little bit and resume once I have passed it.
2. Brakes are not poor!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? They have disc brakes for bikes now (Yeah just like a car). I tune my brakes TWO times a month. I make my brake tuning with PERFECTION. Any bus CANNOT stop faster than me. The more weight something has the greater distance it needs to come to a complete stop. If thats the case then why dont tractor trailers stop on a dime????. At 25 MPH it takes me less than 5 seconds to come to a complete stop. Can you say the same about a 40 foot long bus? I dont need to be looking at the brake lights to see if the bus will slow down . I use the lovely sense of HEARING to listen to the engine. If it revs down that usually is a signal for me to get ready to apply the brakes
3. The front wheel will NOT STOP turning. Its rotation will be severly decreased and I will smell burning rubber but I wont touch that bumper.
Ive been drafting behind buses, U-Haul trucks, and Mutsubishi Fuso trucks for years now (Yeah Im 23 by the way) I have never hit a bumper. Luck or experience you tell me :)
Anthony
I have an average speed of 15-20 MPH with a headwind. Drafting behind a bus will increase my speed to 25, 30, 35 sometimes even 40 MPH when its later in the evening.
I think your bicycle computer needs calibration. What's your maximum gear ratio? Most road bikes are 100 inches (27 x 52 /14). This means you have to turn the crank a minimum of 1.78 revolutions each second to maintain 25 mph. Your cadence is not 100 rpm.
Potholes are a different story. True they are a hazard but If the front wheel of a bus hits one the body and Windows of the bus will make that shaking shound that I am so used to hearing.
The bus avoids the pothole because it goes between the left and right wheel. Your only hint that it is directly in front of you is when it clears the rear of the bus and becomes visible. You've got less than 1 second to avoid it. Bicycle maneuverability diminshes with speed. Bikes will not turn on a dime at 22 mph.
Brakes are not poor!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? They have disc brakes for bikes now
Bicycle disc brakes have been available for 25 years. They do not overcome the fundamental weight distribution problem that limits bicycle brake effectiveness. I suggest you read the chapter on bicycle brakes in "DeLong's Guide to Bicycles & Bicycling the Art and Science", Fred DeLong, 1974, 1978 for a full explanation. It is available at Central branches of both the Brooklyn and Queens libraries. The only thing that more powerful brakes do is to lift the rear wheel off the pavement sooner. Brakes do not work, if the wheel looses contact with the pavement. Disc brakes were designed to be used on tandems, which have a different weight distribution and a much longer wheelbase.
At 25 MPH it takes me less than 5 seconds to come to a complete stop.
You are not going 25 mph. It takes a lot longer to stop at 25 mph than 5 seconds on a bike.
I use the lovely sense of HEARING to listen to the engine.
If you were riding in a peleton you would be looking at the legs of the person whose wheel you were following. You would be in the same gear and sync your cadence to his. If you were lucky enough to be riding in the rain, you would make sure that the spray from your leader's wheel always hit the same part of your leg.
Ive been drafting behind buses, U-Haul trucks, and Mutsubishi Fuso trucks for years now (Yeah Im 23 by the way) I have never hit a bumper. Luck or experience you tell me
Luck, just hope it does not run out before you hit 24. :-)
BTW, I don't think that NYCT bus drivers receive training for how to drive a bicycle motor pace vehicle.
I have a 21-speed Aluminum Mountain bike. Its lighter than many road bikes I have encountered. And I dont draft in the rain, all of my speeding is done on dry pavement. Anyway Im not going to continue this debate because Its kinda off topic (At leat now it is). If you want to continue this send me E-Mail at NYant78@AOL.COM. Its nice to start a debate, but not when it gets off topic on a message borad like this.
:-D
Anthony
An excellent post, Stephen. I heartily agree, and would like to add that, if one is not wearing a helmet or other protective gear, the risk to injury is even higher.
Nothing earth shattering here. It was nice to see 111 St. middle track on the J line used to store two L/U's-P/I's. It is not seeing much use these days. The J was severed in half for work over this past weekend. The Jamaica section was running as far as Cypress Hills. The old tower still exists on the north end of the southbound platform though it more resmbles a pidgeon coop.
Back in 1985-88 when the "J" was cut to 121 St, there were occasionally lay-ups on that 111 St. middle track as well as the tracks beyond 121 St. As a matter of fact, during the AM rush hrs, some "J" trains BEGAN their runs at 111 St (those were the days of the lowest ridership on that line! By the time the trains reached Marcy to come into Manhattan, there were only a handful of standees!!). I wonder if trains were laid up on that 111 St middle track in the days of the "KK"/"QJ"??
I have a friend who lived on 113th St. a block or so from the J. He says the middle track at 111th was used for layups in the KK/QJ days. I wish I could remember exactly where that train of BMT standards was laid up on that Sunday in March of 1968 during my first ride along Jamaica Ave. on a JJ. It had to be either 111th or 160th. The train was signed up as a Broadway-Brooklyn local.
For a period in 1985-86, the center track was ALWAYS used. All 121 St. bound trains would switch onto the middle track leaving 111th St. The train would then merge with the Manhattan bound track as all trains terminated at this platform as the Queens-bound platform was only used to lay up trains. The center track merged with the Manhattan bound track about halfway up the existing center track (this merge was removed in late 1987 when all trains used the existing scissors track east of 121 St.) The track today is in pitiful shape.
That GO is bizarre, I had switching there last week the PM guy had to layup a train there and the other AM guy had to pick it up 3 hours later. Of course there was room in the pocket at Parsons for it all night but who can resist a midnight structure walk.
Does anyone know of the special trackwork that exists within 57/7 station on the northbound local (2 tk.)? This was told to me by a colleague. This track is special because of its proximity to Carnegie Hall upstairs. The track uses different material in order to keep the sound and vibration of the trains low. The ties consist of a special hardwood not used on other tracks. They have a different color to them. The track also has special clips and plates that I have never seen before. Did the TA and Carnegie officials get together on this project? Any comments or information is welcome.
Northbound local? The Carnegie is on the West Side of 7th Avenue, closest to the southbound local track.
I can just see the MTA spending lots of money to make sure that no excessive vibrations would cause the meat to fall off one of those huge pastrami sandwiches.
BTW..the Carnegie Deli is so noisy......who could possible hear the subway? The place is louder than an R-10 with a flat wheel.
Northbound local? The Carnegie is on the West Side of 7th Avenue, closest to the southbound local track.
Carnegie Hall is located on the southeast corner of 7th Ave and 57th St. It extends down to 56th St. I think you'll need more than practice to get there. :-)
That whizzing noise was a (weak) joke going right over your head.
Subway noise does find its way into Carnegie Hall. There is a 1951 recording made by Toscanini and the NBC Symphony which features a very low bass sound at one point - a passing BMT subway train.
Now Avery Fisher Hall at Lincoln Center is another story.
I was once an acoustical consultant to Avery Vicious Hall who threw my hands up in the air trying to tell the "curators" that it was a mess. You'd get audio of people passing gas in the (ahem) "facilities" and the most horrendous standing waves imaginable when you'd drop a kuntzkopf microphone in there. And it STILL ain't right.
Was this before or after the hall was gutted and rebuilt? I remember reading about all the problems they had with the original audirorium. The acoustics at the new Met OTOH were good right from the start.
Avery Fishy Hole has ALWAYS been an acoustical nightmare ... say what you will about the "Fisher Stereo Sound" it SUCKED. I got brought in in 1974, shortly after the FIRST major overhole where the echoey "no two seats sound the same" got a concrete resculpture that made it WORSE. Then came the "curtains" which REALLY screwed it up. The shape of the place was wrong to begin with and no screwing around with reflective and absorptive surfacing and resurfacing could cure the design.
As of 1994, it was about as good as it's going to get but the place should be bulldozed and replaced with something more acoustically gratifying ... sorta like Carnegie ... nah.
Even Carnegie Hall's acoustics were "injured" during its renovation in the mid 80s. Supposedly, the hall was restored to what it was like when it opened in 1891. For one thing, the curtain in front of the stage was removed. It was installed in the 40s after a hole was cut in the acoustical shell to accommodate cameras for TV and filming. I'm not sure if any of the velvet adorning the tiers was removed. It was put on when the hall was built and absorbed any harsh reverberations.
I was once an acoustical consultant to Avery Vicious Hall who threw my hands up in the air trying to tell the "curators" that it was a mess. You'd get audio of people passing gas in the (ahem) "facilities" and
The original acoutic designer was Leo Beranek and used "non-traditional" techniques. It included flying acoustic deflectors and absorbing clouds. These were supposed to be positioned to "tune" the hall for optimum performance. They never worked.
The Hall was rebuilt because of the bad acoustics. The designer was Cyril Harris, who is a taditionalist. Harris' reputation as a concert hall designer was made with the Sydney Opera House.
the most horrendous standing waves imaginable when you'd drop a kuntzkopf microphone in there. And it STILL ain't right.
I can't believe that it is "standing waves". These are caused by the room dimensions. Architects know enough to avoid the 3x4x5, 5x12x13 or similar proportions.
Concert hall acoustics are designed for a full house. Human beings absorb sound. There is a tremendous difference in the acoustics of an empty hall and an occupied one. Similarly, carpting, seats, drapes, plaster, etc. all have a direct relation of reverberation, absorbtion and other acoustic properties.
Glad to hear someone has an idea of what I was talking about. I was afradi my whining was lost here ... yeah, but no matter what AF Hall did for full, semi-full or empty, it always sounded like ... well ... a refrigerator carton at best. To this DAY, Carnegie STILL has the best "room sound" of any place you can plant a pink noise gen ...
Did you know the NY Philharmonic almost never recorded in Carnegie Hall after Berstein took over as music director? Recordings were done either in the Manhattan Center, the St. George Hotel, or Avery Fisher Hall. Maybe they were concerned about subway trains spoiling everything. (See, still on topic.:-))
I have their recording of the Shostakovitch 5th Symphony made in Boston's Symphony Hall. Talk about beautiful acoustics....
I also read that a famous conductor (can't remember who; may have been George Szell) conducted the opening chords of Beethoven's Eroica Symphony just before the hall opened in 1962, stopped, and said the hall would have to be rebuilt. A prophetic statement, to say the least.
Although it has been many years since I've been in Carnegie Hall I distinctly remember hearing the rumble of passing subway trains underneath many times even though the rumble was subtle.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I poked my nose into its vestibule once. A fellow I went to high school with sang there once with a choral group from college. Then a few years ago, my alma mater's wind ensemble played there. ARRRRRGHHHH!! Why couldn't we have done that when I was there!:-)
"Northbound local? The Carnegie is on the West Side of 7th Avenue, closest to the southbound local track"
Well, I *am* looking at a map of the area right now, and according to this map, put out by the Times Square Business District, Carnegie Hall is on the East Side of Seventh Avenue, hard against the northbound tracks.
I remember when those improvements were made, almost 40 years ago. My father had told me that the building owner up stairs was paying for the station improvements. Sort of a joint project with the (at that time) TA to test sound abaitment materials.
Trains were very very quiet coming into that station. There is also a sound abaitment wall between the tracks about as high as the trucks. I guess I did not realize at the time that that was Carnegie Hall that was up stairs.
Elias
Unless he's referring to the Carnegie Deli (and, judging by the pastrami sandwich remark, he probably is),
I'm surprised the BMT 57th St. station has no reference whatsoever to Carnegie Hall, as famous as it is. Think about it: Carnegie Hall was there first. OTOH Lincoln Center didn't even exist when the original IRT line opened in 1904, yet the 66th St. station has "Lincoln Center" on its signs.
"I'm surprised the BMT 57th St. station has no reference whatsoever to Carnegie Hall, "
Sophisticated patrons of said establishment do not arise from the (sniff) outlying provences (sniff) such as Brooklyn, nor in any event (sniff) would they arrive on such a plebian mode of transport (sniff).
: ) Elias
Manhattan bound "W" platforms clearly note that "W" service weekends terminates at Pacific.
Now, as it was said before that the reason for this was a G.O., why does it seem to be painfully permanent, at least until the connection with the IND via the Bridge is restored?
The weekend W does not run north of Pacific Street. Period. That's the official service pattern, as indicated on the map, on the timetable, in the service changes brochures, and on the signs.
One reason put forth on this board is that most weekends the N/Q/R will be sharing either the tunnel or the bridge, leaving the W behind. Rather than confuse everyone up and down the line whenever this happens, the decision was made to officially cut back the service on all weekends.
True, however in the few months prior to the change, none of that was disclosed to the riding public.
None of what?
That the weekend W would only run to Pacific? Sure it was. Read the service brochure again -- it's in there. It's also on the maps, which (granted) weren't widely distributed to the public before July 22 but were on some of the cars and in some of the stations a week or two early.
Or the reason? The reason still hasn't been disclosed to the public. The reason I gave, AFAIK, is just a guess that a bunch of SubTalkers came up with. The TA's reason may, in fact, be something else entirely. The TA doesn't usually announce its reasons for service changes.
You want a service change that went completely unannounced, except on the maps? How's this one: no weekend B service. That means that CPW local service was halved and there's no direct local service between CPW and 6th Avenue. There is no mention of this anywhere in the service changes brochure; in fact, the enclosed map implies that B service north of 34th Street is unchanged.
You want a service change that went completely unannounced, except on the maps? How's this one: no weekend B service. That means that CPW local service was halved and there's no direct local service between CPW and 6th Avenue. There is no mention of this anywhere in the service changes brochure; in fact, the enclosed map implies that B service north of 34th Street is unchanged.
Prior to the start of this pick, B service was originally scheduled between Stillwell and Queensbridge on the weekends, leaving no local service from 6th Ave to CPW and no B service running on CPW on weekends. Why should the continuation of this previous policy come as a surprise?
Continuation of what policy? The B had been running via CPW local seven days a week since October(?) 2000. The B ran on Saturday, July 21 -- I boarded one at 59th Street that evening. The B was not running on Sunday, July 22. That's a service change if I've ever seen one.
One sentence in the brochure would have sufficed.
The "W" back up trying to get into Pacific Street and the "N" and "R" pass them by as they are standing still. SOLUTION: TERMINATE THE DAMN "W" AT 36TH STREET! You are better off bailing out of the "W" right there at 36th and waiting for whatever else comes along. You are bound to get to and through Pacific Street faster than if you stayed on the "W". The turning-around at Pacific Street is absolute nonsense.
wayne
I've been doing this 10 times a week sinec it went into effect and only ONCE have I had a problem getting the train into the station. I usually pass upa local at 9th St or Union and manage to get everyone on it at Pacific (except for those who insist on sitting in adark train).
Then I must be snakebit, cause all four times I've tried this I've been stuck between Union and Pacific waiting for traffic ahead to clear. You no doubt have a clearer picture of what's going on.
wayne
No, I just think a little (as compared to other TOs, not you). As I approach Pacific St and see all the red signals there, I call the Dispatcher on the radio and let him know I'm coming. He will usually give me the OK to key-by into the station; if not, I have to wait until the previous train makes it all the way to the reverse marker and the switch out of the relay gets thrown, before I can come in. Since the Disp. doesn't have a model board, he can't see a train sitting south of the station unless the train calls him.
>>One reason put forth on this board is that most weekends the N/Q/R will be sharing either the tunnel or the bridge, leaving the W behind.<<
I have one problem with that: Has anyone actually seen this yet?
I actually believe the reason is that the TA wants to save cash by not overserving the Broadway line, which would certainly be the case if the W ran to manhattan.
I have one problem with that: Has anyone actually seen this yet?
It's going on right now! Read the service diversions. Manhattan-bound N and R trains are running over the bridge this weekend as well as next. I have no idea if this will be a recurring trend.
I actually believe the reason is that the TA wants to save cash by not overserving the Broadway line, which would certainly be the case if the W ran to manhattan.
That's another reasonable possibility.
Hmm! Now I see why the W only runs to Pacific St, on weekends.
Well Gang, I must say that "Q" Brighton Express service really lived up to its' name today. After work, I boarded a "Q" slant express at Dekalb to go to the Beach. After Prospect Park, it ZOOMED down that express track!! A speedy express ride on a slant is something that is rare these days!! It reminded me of the days of speedy slant "A" and "F" express rides--those were the days........ Tony
Yeah I haven't been on the Q during it's entire run in awhile. Those R40 slants leave the beastly locals in the dust. It's one of my favorite express runs. As one T/O recently said to another while I was riding a diamind Q over the MB, "Thank God they didn't put those R68's on the express". Apparently some T/O's also think the 68's are beastly so I'm not alone.
Why do you think that the R - 68s are nicknamed "Hippos"?
Why do you think that the R - 68s are nicknamed "Hippos"?
Because like their namesake creature, they are nimble and powerful.
I was on it four times over the last two weeks. Was fast every time, and no slow down past Av. H, just like in the good old days of the Q Brightliners. But to me the most remarkable thing about the Q diamond was the air-conditioning. Each one of those slant R40s was ice cold, even on the ride in the morning rush hour to Manhattan and the train filled to capacity. Better A/C than on anything else I rode over those two weeks, which included R46s on the R and R68s on the N, circle Q, and W.
Yeah the R40s have the coldest A/C.
If there are any of the maintenance people of the Slant R40 Q diamonds on the board: KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
Yep, they have STONE Safety A/C. STONE COLD. The only fault is that sometimes they drip near the "A" end, by the blower louvers near where they end in the drop ceiling. Sometimes from the drop ceiling itself.
Minor complaint.
wayne
Are you sure the R42s aren't better? The J/M/Z are the coldest trains in my book.
Could be you were on a 40M on the J/M/Z. Shouldn't they have the same air as the slants? In other matters, what are the rest of the slants doing on the L?
Could someone tell me a PHYSICAL difference between the R40M and the R42? I'm confused. But in all seriousness the J/M/Z are the best lines in terms of A/C. Who knows what car model I was on?
Look at the pictures on this website.
From the front, the R-40M and the R-42 are almost identical. However, from the side, the R-40M looks like an R-40 (narrow corrugation with a "scoop" above for a blue stripe), while the R-42 does not (wider spacing between the horizontal lines and no "scoop." However, since the cars were overhauled in the late 1980s, the interiors have been different: the R-40M retained painted walls, while the wall panels on the R-42s were replaced with unpainted stainless steel panels.
As to which lines are "best" (or "worst") for air conditioning, that's a matter of perception. All NYCT subway car HVAC systems are capable of meeting the same temperature range specifications.
David
The R40M #2 end door looks like the R40 kind, thin. The #2 end door on the R42 looks like the #1 end door of the R40M and R42.
(IE 6.0, a big step up from 5.x)
The interior of the R-40M looks just like the interior of the R-40, except for the front end. The route display box has a separate wall cutouts for each panel (a feature which, IMO, lends a very dated appearance to the car interior), and the seats are the same poorly shaped ones found on the R-40. The R-42 has unified display boxes and comfortable seats.
The R-42 is one of my favorite car classes. The R-40 is my least favorite of the classes with railfan windows.
I should also add that the R32 Phase I cars are pretty cold too. I can't say that the R42s have the best A/C, perhaps they did when they were new; some of them (the higher number cars) appear to have faulty A/C; it doesn't appear to work too well.
wayne
Ah, yes - they're right where they belong, aren't they. How many Circle Q did you dust AND did you get the number of the south motor?
The Slants - as ugly as sin, but ya gotta love 'em.
wayne
Get your cameras ready for those of you interested. TA will be getting their feet wet with a trail run of the V on Sat., Sept. 8. TA will try to gather information from the operation. This will not create a true picture of the operation however because it is on a Sat.
That's OK ... a weekend run was sufficient to kill the G train. :)
Sure, the day of Hoboken Try Transit Festival, the Fall Trolley Extravaganza, and the ERA 207 St shop tour. Have foamers caused so many problems on previous test runs that the TA wants to make sure they're all away? ;)
There are many TA employees who will have to work on 9/8 who would rather go to Hoboken and the like.
Like foaming at the mouth to operate?
Not really... If one happened to live on a stop on the Queens Blvd line, they would be forced to go through the test on their way to such events.
I get to kill two birds in one stone! Last test, I hadn't checked the board in time and slept right through it. Not this time!
Does anyone know what cars the V will get (R-32 or R-46)?
I'm putting my money on the 46--the R (my line) has been getting a shift in rolling stock back to the 32's.
Where have those 32s been coming from?
They've been coming from the "E" train since mid-2000 because they've been swapping with the "R" for the 46's.
Been there, done that!!! I was at the test run when they did the G/R/V together on 4/14/2001. That was cool.
OK-please bear with me, as this may sound silly. My girlfriend and I are the furthest thing from subway aficionadas. While in a Subway sandwich restaurant we noticed drawings of round subway cars on the wallpaper. We wondered if these were ever actually rendered in drawings or produced for real. If any were manufactured, I would appreciate a link with photos. Thanks.
Made for good dinner conversation at the least.
Those were the cars from Alfred Ely Beach's (founder of Scientific American) Pneumatic subway. It ran for only two blocks with one station and used air pressure to move the cars. It was only for experimental purposes and built in secrecy. The line closed soon after opening, although Beach wanted to extend it further.
Beach's Pneumatic Subway.
Also, the London Tube cars are kinda sorta round due to tight clearances, but I know that's not what you have in mind.
Tunnel Vison Article about the IND featuring 3 subtalkers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Asking questions and making comments about your operation?
Now I know why they all tape the window over and even most TSS won't take it down.
I foolishly respond to "excuse me, you are not supposed to have anying blocking the window" after an exchange I remove the taped paper. Then,
"boy that window is really dirty can you do something about that",
"NO",
"why not it blocks your vision it is unsafe"
"I can see fine"
"I can't"
"It's a union thing, I can't do too much cleaners work, it takes their jobs away"
"But it is.."
"we are running late, excuse me"
held at bergen, tap, tap, i look out the window, knock, knock,
"yes"
"How come you came into bergen street so slow, you had a green light
and you were slowing down." (I think the lunar red is slow there and don't fool with it)
"excuse me, Bergen a G looking for the line up at Bergen, please"
"Are you off the street"
(I actually honk four times in station)
"is something wrong with the radio, should I go over there"
in retrospect I should have had him do that and let the c/o close on him.
"no that's ok, Bergen come in to the NB G"
then "N/B G hold" and my heart sank.
"How much faster is the G to QP then the F"
"how come the express tracks are not used"
"it's really cool when the lights go to yellow as you are about to pass them how come you don't do that"
yada yada yada.
Finally I get it and close and lock the door, tap, tap, "sorry TA regulations, I cant allow myself to be distracted",
"but the other guys...", sorry as you pointed out the others are better than me at least we found out you can see thru the glass, bye" SLAM, Click.
Pastey white guy, thin, about 5'7-9 dark hair, slight hard to identify accent. Kill on sight.
Ummm ... retirees are willing to loan you their guns. :)
I've had foamers on runs in my days, though not QUITE as rude. The ones that really put my arse in the air was the ones that tried to open the CLIP so they could "see better" ... dig, running no headlights, dark tunnel section, car lights ALL working, R1/9, seeing just fine, cruising into the DeKalb interlock. Uh, YEAH. Sure, kid, I've got time for YOU.
But yeah, long short, long short, long short ... outta my face. Best you can hope for without a hearing. :)
>>>...the ones that tried to open the CLIP so they could "see better" ...<<<
CLIP...see better? 'Splain Lucy.
Peace,
ANDEE
"door clamp" ... that little piece of stamped metal that lets us get some air or vent our farts. :)
Also it's always polite to get out of the way of front window area when a T/O is boarding, to let him/her check the front door and make sure it is locked, and change the front sign (on Redbirds).
The cabs on the 'birds are pretty cramped, and there's no A/C in the cabs so I see those clips all the time on the 7 line. Also wooden door stoppers are used as well.
I've always had a "biker's build" so working the A division was something I just didn't want to even consider. That "wooden door stopper" was never meant to be used for that purpose - it's really there to break off third rail shoes if it's still the same piece of "wood" they issued back in my days. Understand they have nice pretty yellow shoesies now called "slippers" for that purpose now and paddles. But if a supervisor caught you with one of those uder the door, you'd get written up. Didn't stop a lot of operators from doing it anyway since the door clamp really wasn't enough of an opening in most circumstances.
>>>...the ones that tried to open the CLIP so they could "see better" ...<<<
CLIP...see better? 'Splain Lucy..
Peace,
ANDEE
Wanna make your experience riding the rails FUN without your nose meeting the storm door when the car's empty and there's no TSS around? (heh)
1. Lean up and take the view in solitude, enjoying the signals whizzing by, silently enjoying the thrill of "almost handles" ... extra points if you can refrain from bodily emissions for the whole trip.
2. Grab the rightmost position in the window (or what's available), right up against the cab door, face on glass if possible, actually making sure not to bang on the door, kick the door, whistle stupid songs or make clicking or popping noises. Chewing gum a BIG minue here. Quiet co-pilots ARE appreciated, as are their friends riding together.
3. If sharing a ride with a friend, the occasional "whoaaaa" as the timer clears from red to yellow right in front of your face is a joy to the monkey in the cage as they now know someone else noticed it too. A round of clapping is also appreciated if the timer clears OUTSIDE the railfan window and a sigh of relief is heard within 2 seconds of passing the ball.
HOW to NOT be a "foamer" ...
1. Do NOT complain to yourself or anyone else in the car about what a WOOS the motorperson is ... if you don't like the speed, take the damned BUS ... if you decide to ride to the next stop after a bus stop, then we'll have no choice but to kick your ass.
2. Do not kick the cab door, knock on it, or point your posterior into the crack (of the door that is) ... we KNOW you're out there, now go away or we'll kick your ass ...
3. Do not talk to friends about what the aspects mean - we know how tenuous a lineup is, and we're going for it anyway. If you screw with us, we'll kick your ass.
4. Do not critique the acceleration or the slowdown to a marker. If you do, we'll just have to kick your ass.
5. Do not yell into the cab that some other motorperson goes through here all the time at least 10 MPH faster than you are. If we hear you, we'll put the train BIE and kick your ass (notice how many trains go BIE lately and then somebody gets a can of wupass? 'nuff said).
6. Don't try to do vocal impressions of police radios with lots of steam-sounding noises with broken sentences. We know we can't reach command and neither can you. Confuse us and we'll come out of the cab and kick your ass.
7. Don't open the rollsign window. We can SEE the light enter the cab. Screw with our markers, and we'll just HAVE to kick your ass.
8. Don't tell us how much you know about the subways and which dispatcher you know. Chances are, that's the sc*mbag who derailed us into a gap ... we want him, and we want YOU.
9. Enjoy the ride, and SHUT UP. :)
(hope it was a fun ride, watch the closing doors ... ommph! My nose.)
What if someone did magnet valve sounds as the train was coming to a stop?
Usually if I was joyriding alone, I'd just take in the sights and sounds without saying a word. Give me a train of R-10s on CPW and I was in hog heaven.
Heh. WE could tell when it was real or if it was memorex. The needle twittered when we stroked it. :)
But yeah, in a sick kinda way, they'd tell me flat out if they were happy with how I treated them at each stop. Don't mean to come off "mystical" here, but them babies let you KNOW how you were doing with your wrist action. Didn't need Ed KROCH to tell you so. :)
Gee whiz - you're no fun anymore
Aw DANG ... you get to kiss the fan window. :)
BWAHAHAHA!
That's fair, except in a few situations:
1) At the 60 Street tunnel, any operator doing less than 55MPH with green lights all the way will have their train confiscated. NO EXCEPTIONS.
2) Please do not slow up the train operations by looking at beautiful members of the opposite sex. The extra-width cabs are being phased in so that train operators can invite these people to ride shotgun.
3) Please remember to introduce your shoes to the gluteus maximus of those MTA personnel that insist on making the ride from Howard Beach to Rockaway as slow as it is. The LIRR sold the trestle because the T/Os needed a couple of cigarettes to get through this stretch and the darn thing kept burning.
Please point out disturbing foamers to the Association of Professional Train Buffs and Railfans and we will, ahem, dispose of them in an efficient manner. There should be no need for a T/O to have to put up with that foolishness. The Association seeks to make sure that our occupation is not tarnished by unprofessional individuals.
If you don't know about the Association and you are a train buff or railfan, we're probably looking to dispose of you:)
2) Please do not slow up the train operations by looking at beautiful members of the opposite sex. The extra-width cabs are being phased in so that train operators can invite these people to ride shotgun.
This happened the last time I rode the Broad Street Subway in Philly. She blocked my view.
>1) At the 60 Street tunnel, any operator doing less than 55MPH with >green lights all the way will have their train confiscated. NO >EXCEPTIONS.
I was so proud I hit 52mph finally on that stretch, in road posting we hit 62! I think the day after I make probation I'll try for it.
>2) Please do not slow up the train operations by looking at >beautiful members of the opposite sex. The extra-width cabs are >being phased in so that train operators can invite these people to >ride shotgun
No problem, hot babes make me more likely to overrun so I don't look.
Oh my God there's Dragon clips over there, eecccchhh (BIE). Damn I just missed that RED signal.
Next time I leave the cab door CLOSED!
I think the 'fan was just trying to get your pissed enough so that you'd get out of your seat and yell "Oh Yeah! Let's see YOU do any better."
No problem ... screw the rules, we just kick some ass. :)
When I was a kid, I knew not to bug the motorman. I guess most kids also knew. During the summer especially, the motormen would prop the door open slightly for ventilation and this provided an excellent view.
I didn't speak unless spoken to, but occasionally a motorman would chat a bit. Maybe two or three times over a period of years a motorman would complain or shut the door on me.
One time at Coney Island a motorman was assigned to take out a Franklin Local, I guess for the first time. When he saw me looking out the front and said "hey, kid" I thought I was hoing to be chased, but the conversation instead went:
"Do you take this train a lot?"
"Uh huh."
"You know those lights on the front, the ones on top?"
"The markers are green and green,"
"Thanks, kid."
So what's different today? The T/Os, the Loons, or both?
Ummm ... was this 1970? DADDY! Heh.
Seriously, once those of us on the rails got 3-6 weeks out of school car and posted, kids at the door wasn't much of a distraction, Fortunately back in my days, I could do a "Shhhhh!" when I wasn't quite sure of myself and it was obeyed. Once past the trickies, I'd shoot the sheet with "buffs" but I really got rather snarly when I had my lineup caught in my zipper the first few times.
Never did the Franklin, but sure wasn't sure of some of the balls I got on divergences due to "railroad" in my first days. That coulda been ME saying, "is a yellow over green normal here?" to someone I believed actually KNEW the line. Funny how for how we can all fell mighty in our singular selves, how much we can depend on those of ourselves we can feel our way to trusting. And in my brief career, I had buffs who would yell into the cab as I grabbed some controller, "that lineup ain't right!" and danged if it wasn't right ...
Did you ever get a wrong lineup at Homeball Alley? Such as a yellow over yellow to the Concourse express track heading uptown other than during PM rush hours?
Yeah, when I was posting on the A they gave me a lineup to the Concourse. My instructor didn't notice it until I had already started braking.
How responsible is the T/O for accepting an incorrect lineup?
It's a big one for you and probably the tower operator.
Even thought the track work is finished N of 135th I think they are keeping that slow speed area to make sure there are now wrong lineups.
If I take a wrong line-up that I can't recover from, ie taking an A train to the Concourse, it's my butt in the sling - I need to know what my line-up is supposed to be and have a Dispatcher or Control tell me to take something else that causes me to skip stations on my line or takes me to a foreign terminal. According to Transit practices, a line-up is not wrong until taken, since the correct line-up can be given if you haven't taken theincorrect one.
What's the proper procedure for an express train that gets the lineup for the local track? (Accept it and make local stops? Accept it but bypass local stops? Request the correct lineup?)
I rode a W out of Ditmars on Wednesday that was routed onto the local track for no apparent reason other than minor confusion in the tower. The T/O accepted the lineup without slowing down but ran nonstop from Astoria to Queensboro.
When an express is given a local line-up you are to accept it as long as you can get back to your normal route. When you accept the line-up you are to make express stops on the the local track (Express yourself on the local) unless told otherwise by the tower, a G.O. or a cold weather plan.
Well, back in those days, there was a guy in the hole and you had MARKERS ... as long as your markers were set correctly, you had a much better chance of being offered the correct lineup on the D since it was green/green in express runs and green/white for the outer track. I've had to toot for mine here and there, but it wasn't often.
Now that the towers are buried elsewhere, I can imagine being offered the wrong lineup is more likely than it used to be, but if you TAKE it, it's YOUR fault.
I remember noting a marker light combination of a D train of pre-GOH R-32s in 1984. It was green-white. The motorman was looking at me as if to say "What the $#%@ are you doing?". When I explained what I was doing, he said it should be right.
Yep ... that would be a local on the concourse. Express was green/green ... but you couldn't fool the tower by playing with the lights, your lineup was a function of what TIME it was, not how you were marked. :)
That particular D train punched for the express lineup, as it was the PM rush hour. They may have changed some of the marker light combinations over the years. Then again, maybe that motorman wasn't right after all.
Greens were concourse, reds were Washington Heights ... but it generally didn't matter how you were marked up since you had to punch anyway. But FOR the record, GREEN LEFT, GREEN RIGHT (from the tower's eye view) was Concourse and Brighton Express, WHITE/GREEN was Concourse Local and Brighton Local. The rarest of all markers was GREEN/YELLOW - Concourse Local, Brighton Exp. CC was white/white ... did a few of those runs.
But then, it didn't matter if you were markered wrong, the tower guys would razz ya. :)
When I was riding about over Manhattan Bridge, the T/O guy even opened the door so we could see the bridge structure better. Oh yeah and he opened the door to show us where an old tunnel and an old station was. That was neat.
In all the years of riding the subways, I've never had a trouble with a motorman because I never started trouble either. I had on many occassions a friendly chat, but never to critque what they were or failing to do.
As far as making brake release sounds, there is one funny story I remember well. When the Willamsburgh Bridge was closed in 1988, I was invited a couple of times to be a stowaway on an equpment move from the SBK yard at 2nd Ave and 39th St, up the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch to the interchange at New Lots.
At the SBK interchange, I was on a pro-GOH R-42 with a friend of mine and an off duty T/O who was also invited.In a few minutes we were about to be pulled the SBK diesels down 2nd Ave for the journey.
All three of us were talkin' trains when all of a sudden I did a convincing R-42 brake release sound, you know, much like the PATH PA series cars. The T/O looked stunned and said "is thing charging up ?"
I spilled the beans and we all had a laugh. Of course there are no third rails at SBK exchange ! Other than that, I keep silent when T/Os are on the job.
Bill "Newkirk"
Michael Winslow would have had a field day, I'm sure. I'll bet he could do any subway sound you could think of, from R-1/9 compressors and magnet valves to R-10 doors.
Damn straight?!
In fact for the special he just did that's airing on Black Starz!, he did a train in motion :)
(Did I mention I love the way he does ALL [not just the train sounds] of those sounds?)
The man has talent, I must say.
And with amplification, train sounds are EASY ...
I crank the volume on my stereo when I play one of Heypaul's tapes. Of course, having a 500-watt power amp helps. You feel as though you're on the train. Now all I need is a subwoofer.:-)
Heh. It's a fabulous tape. Glass breaks when the Microphone gets handled though. :)
When I'm in the head car of an R-32/40/42, and the door is open, I don't say anything unless spoken to--especially if I have my headphones on--but once in a while I get a cool T/O who'll talk shop (not critique--I'm not that nitpicky) about what MTA has in store or become nostalgic about stuff.
I never bother the T/O unless he talks to me, which happens on occasion. As far as going slow when signals are green, there are many reasons, slow orders, track workers,etc.
No lies, fess up, everyone. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, nobody, suuuure....
Peace,
ANDEE
How wide was his foam trail?
Hmmmm, complained about a dirty window? Now, if you had
said that he began to clean it, from the outside, as the
train was in motion, then I'd be certain of who it was!
A railfan described as a pasty white guy? Maybe looks like he lives with his mother? That ought to narrow it down!
...are you the Eggman?
are you the Eggman?
No, you are, as is clearly indicated by your handle. Geesh.
Dan
My son is coming to visit from Denver. Anybody know where you can get the $4 all day ride Fun Pass?
You can buy them in any metrocard vending machine. You cannot buy them in token booths. You can also buy them at some stores/newsstands. Most station have metrocard vending machines.
You can also buy them online
Peace,
ANDEE
You can also buy them at the Transit Museum Gift shops at Grand Central (next to the Station Masters office)or at Times Square (between 46th & 47th Sts and Broadway (next to the McDonalds).
Note, if you order online as Andee advises there is a $15 minimum on orders.
Ramblin, I like your nickname. Are you a Ga Tech grad like me?
You'd be surprised how many HALLMARK stores carry 'em
Hallmark and Metrocard- when you care to travel the very best.
Referring to some earlier posts, one of our number flipped the east-west directions of the Rockaways, or did he?
We know how the Rockaways are oriented geographically (Breezy Point and R. Park are SW, Far Rock is NE) but what are the railroad directions? After all, on the SIRT, Tottenville is timetable east of St. George.
Now, my GUESS is that both Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway are SOUTH of Hammels. But what about in LIRR days?
So remembering that Far Rockaway is timetable EAST of Valley, I asked a retired LIRR towerman what it was like when the LIRR had the entire Rockaway Line:
"Since the 1920's I think, no service ran from Far Rock to R.Pk. or R.Pk. to F.R. so both were east of Hammels for trestle trains. Loop trains changed direction at VALLEY and returned to N.Y./Bkln. so Far Rock was west of Valley.
"After the fire (1950) R.Pk. became east of F.R. and both east of VALLEY."
So there, Rudyard Kipling.
Back in the pre-Metro North days, Grand Central was the destination of both eastbound (New York Central) and westbound (New Haven) traffic. So, it was interesting to have both east and west bound trains operating on the same track (in the same direction, though).
What is it now?
It's like busses operating in the same direction on a street, in two logical directions, from the SAME route.
The B13, B17 and BM1.
Do you think they should have confused everyone by reversing all directions on SI just because they closed the North Shore Line?
Traveling "northbound" on the (E) or (F) or (G) or (R) on Queens Blvd, you're really going southeast. And On Van Wyck "Blvd." (Expwy) you're going just about due south.
Same thing happens on I-95 at the north end of its route in NJ and on the Cross Bronx Expwy.
:-) Andrew
Pardon me if some/most of you don't care about this ...
Railpace has been running features on rail centers, including topographical maps & suggested spots for railfan watching. This month it's Scranton, PA with Steamtown USA called out.
In addition is a photo of a R-143 & one of the PCC that have just arrived in Brooklyn.
Mr t__:^)
From now on, all straphangers must be innoculated against Rabies before boarding subway trains.
Rabid Cat Found in Subway Tunnel.
Geez, you never hear anything about the pigeons that frequent some stations.
Since these customers are under 44 inches tall, they ride free, right? :)
--Mark
Yeah, some heartless bastard probably dumped the cat on the street, it ended up in the subway, got rabies from the rats, injured by a train and you know the rest.
Peace,
ANDEE
Humans have a very unique quality that no other living thing on this earth has. CRUELTY.
That's the understatement of the millennium. Instead of treating the animal, they just put it to sleep.
If the cat really had active rabies, it couldn't be treated.
I wonder, would they kill a human with a contagious, incurable disease?
Sometimes, yes, when the person is suffering. You just don't hear about it.
Rabies is so serious your condition even if you survive is problematic. For man or beast the best treatment BY FAR is treatment before the disease shows symptons.
I don't want to get too philosophical about it, but my wife and I had two of our dogs put to sleep some years ago (both cancer). They had been through surgery and it bought them a little quality time, but in the end they could no longer enjoy life. I'm not a supporter of euthanasia for humans (for other reasons) but sometimes we're kinder to sick and dying animals than we are to humans.
I'm not a supporter of euthanasia for humans (for other reasons) but sometimes we're kinder to sick and dying animals than we are to humans.
You make an excellent point. I'm grateful to the hospice folks for all of the assistance they provided to make my mother-in-law's last year a tolerable one (she passed away last Saturday in Cadillac, Michigan... I'll be AWOL from Subtalk for a few days starting Thursday noon, driving out to attend the memorial service). The last few weeks, though, she had no quality of life whatsoever... according to my sister-in-law (a nurse herself, who stayed with her mother during that time), the pain was getting through the morphine... she regrets not having the courage to turn up the dosage to a fatal level.
My mother-in-law was only 75. Although we lived too far apart to see each other on a regular basis, we kept in close touch, talking every week on the phone. She was a very special person, and, like my wife and everyone else, I'm going to miss her very much.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My sympathies on your loss.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ditto here, too.
Chris, may Hashem bring peace and comfort to your family in your time of grief.
Chris, I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. May she have peace from now on. It's a terrible thing to be in such pain for such a long time.
Chuck Greene
My thanks to all of you who extended your sympathies to me and my family, both here on the board, by email, and by phone. Your friendship has made this difficult time easier to handle for all of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You have my condolences and, if it's any comfort to them at all, please express them to your family as well.
I am very sorry for your loss.
Andrew
Chris, sorry to hear of your loss.
May those closest to you comfort you during this difficult time.
My condolences...
Doug
My condolenscences and best wishes.
same here
faxman
For someone with incurable cancer, the treatment is palliation, that is, make them comfortable and as pain free as possible without killing them. Rabies is incurable once the symptoms are apparent, so the victim would have to be sedated and kept in protective isolation in order to keep the infection from spreading to the health care workers. If any of you out there come across a sick dog, cat, raccoon, fox, skunk or bat or other mammal, leave it alone and call the animal control department of the town where you live. Rabies is no joke, and many unfortunates are killed by it every year. Birds, reptiles and ampibians do not get it, but mammals do, and a bite is all it takes. Going into caves where bats live is another way, as is handling body fluids from rabid animals.
Rabies is no joke, and many unfortunates are killed by it every year.
I had heard that there are at most one or two cases of human rabies in the United States each year. Nearly all of the deaths occur in poorer nations (IIRC, India is the hardest-hit country).
Aren't there many more in which the humans are successfully vaccinated before the disease can take hold?
Is there any chance that one can be bit by a rabid animal, begin vaccination immediately, but still get the disease (assuming the person doesn't have AIDS)? What about organ transplant patients with a weakened immune system?
The vaccine is very effective, but if not administered quickly, the disease is uniformly fatal. That bat that was flying around the crowded subway car should have been taken to a lab and checked for the disease. Any wild mammal, especially carnivores like skunks, foxes, bats, and raccoons, if observed out in the open or appearing docile, should be suspected of having the disease and should not be approached by anyone except a trained animal handler. Your dog or cat can get the illness if their immunizations are not up to date. I am not saying that we should all hide under the bed, but be aware of what is out there because what we do not know can really hurt us.
Actually, this is a kind of scary mystery. Rabies is very rare in rats or squirrels.
See National Institutes of Health FAQ.
So it's a big question how this cat got rabies and then ended up in the subway system. I've heard that rabies can live in the ground, like tetanus, and that an animal (including another cat) can contract it from a cat scratch. But if this is true it must be extremely uncommon, or they would be telling you to get rabies shots every time you're scrathed by a cat.
It is too bad that some people are so cruel to animals. It they only had the heart to take an unwanted cat and offer to give it away I'm sure there would be many people out there that would be glad to have a perfectly healthy cat at no cost to them.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
When was it found?
I saw some sort of animal on the trackbed at a station (I'm afraid I don't remember which one) on Sunday. I'm not sure if it was a small cat, a large rabbit, or a huge rat.
I saw a cat a few months ago at Fulton St. (J/Z southbound plat). I wonder if it was the same cat.
The unique thing about this cat is that it was a little small (looked like a kitten), and could jump in one hop from the rail up to the platform. After doing this once or twice it disappeared down in the roadbed somewhere.
So let's see, we've hat Bat Attacks, Cat attacks, Redbird attacks... now all we need is to get a few sharks down there.
wonder where i can rent a shark costume?
hehheh...
*knock knock*
"who's there?"
"land shark"
I have a great idea! the TA shoud put a mouse on the third rail and... you know the rest.
1871-75 which was on the 3 line, moved to the 1 line last week, is back on the 3 line as of yesterday. Also add 1731-35 to list of Pelham Cars moving to 240St yard.
1821-1830 are also on the No.1 Line now.
Someone sent me an email via my robby@nycsubway.org address that had a virus attached. It didn't do anything to my computer, but be warned if you get anything from ROBERT MACK titled "junk".
Probably Sircam again. It works by harvesting email addresses out of web browser caches. The subjects are never the same.
I was getting hit with one too, from one person at a mortgage office in California. I was getting 10-12 messages a day that included the virus. I tried emailing her, the webmaster, the postmaster...all with no result. Finally I went to whois and called the domain owner directly. THAT fixed my problem nicely.
-Hank
So does the virus have to be resident on YOUR computer in order for it to harvest email addresses out of the web cache?
Yes.
-Hank
vandalism of turnstiles will go up. machines will break down quicker, robberies will occur more often especially in this slumping economy. basically, crime and unreliability will go up because man is not around to watch. big brother isn't all that much of help unless its a big crime. if they still go through with automation, they better get some plan to pay the transit cops more to keep everything in check.
the machines will break down more oftem because of vandalism and because they will be highly used and will run out of things such as reciept paper, currency to make change and metrocards. when this happens, to say late at night, and there i no token clerk, the stores are closed and you can't get a metrocard, how the hell will you get into the system? so far automation doesn't sound good to me.
[so far automation doesn't sound good to me. ]
So far you don't make the automation sound good.
Arti
You hit the point on the head! Keep the booths open. We can call for MVM Service and call police if a customer needs help.
You hit the point on the head!
Well, it's good to know that his dementia is physically inflicted.
excuse me? dimentia physically inflicted? common sense isn't dimentia and it is physically inflicted. you should look about gaining some
[posted by KHI on Tue Aug 21 12:07:28 2001.
You hit the point on the head! Keep the booths open. We can call for MVM Service and call police if a customer needs help.]
... and keep me employed....
I honestly hate the idea that some of my taxes/fares go towards the pointless staffing on the booths I never have any use for, and never have gotten any help from. I vividly remember standing in Broad Street Station for 1/2 of an hour with the station agent not caring that the trains WILL NOT depart from that platform and doing ABSOLUTELY nothing to inform me. I personally have no sympathy towards you guys, I consider freeloaders!
Arti
I absolutely agree with you. If they it doesn't happen this way and they put up too many cameras to check people, then it wouldn't feel right to be watched all the time.
>>> so far automation doesn't sound good to me. <<<
I guess your fear is well founded. We all know what disasters befell civilization when they tried to automate elevators and leave them without full time attendants. And of course even the idea of a public rest room without a full time attendant to hand you a towel is unthinkable. Some people have even suggested running buses without a conductor to make change and collect the fares. Also the complete failure of ATM machines to automate simple transactions with banks, or even machines to handle the sales of tickets for state lotteries. :-)
Don't be such a Luddite. Do you really believe that automation will be plunked down on the subway system without any other changes from the way they do business today? Automation will occur without the sky falling in. Other transit systems are far more automated and work well. Without change, the TA would still be running gate cars with conductors between each car, and ticket choppers collecting the tickets at entrance gates instead of turnstiles.
Tom
regardless of how it will change, it will still be no good. this is not like an elevator or a bathroom. this is a big ass transit system that will not do so good with automation because the major concerns of vandalism, crime, not working machines, and nobody to attend to passengers at certain hours in certain areas. of course the automation will proceed if it is worked out by them but, when it comes, it will not be pretty.
Public elevators and bathrooms occur everywhere, in every neighborhood, used by every kind of person. Nearly all of them are unnatended. In fact, it is the wealthy bathrooms and elevators that are attended.
Just found out all tickets were sold..for this sundays "D-Type" fan trip..on the SBRR.
Been sold out for weeks.
Can you give me the direct route, I'm planning to follow part/all of it...
Just found out that Newark PCC # 6, Which is repainted in the Public Service colors is in regular service today. This is the first time 6 has carried passengers since being repainted in the Spring.
Son of a bitch, I didn't see it!!!
I did see it resting at Penn several times, but had I known it would be in service, I definately would've waited!
Oh well, there's always tomorrow. Not many tomorrows left, though . . . :-0
I'll be out there tomorrow. Look for me . . . I'll either be wearing a black "SOPRANOS" t-shirt or a black t-shirt with
"NEW JERSEY" in flames and a caption that reads "WHERE THE WEAK ARE KILLED AND EATEN"
I'll also be wearing dark blue jeans and probably carrying a black backpack.
Now here's the really sucky part. We're leaving for a trip on THURSDAY! THURS-FREAKING-DAY!!!!
ALL THIS TIME!!!! SINCE I FOUND OUT IN 1997 THAT THE CARS WOULD BE REPLACED SOMETIME "SOON", I VOWED THAT I WOULD BE THERE ON THE LAST DAY OF SERVICE!
ALL THIS TIME THEY'VE POSTPONED THE RETIREMENT DATE AND FINALLY THEY'RE DOING IT AND HAVING A CEREMONIAL RETIREMENT AND I'M NOT GONNA BE A PART OF IT!!!
I'm so disgusted you don't know.
#6 also has the LRV type wheels installed.
See y'all on Friday. If I can swing it, I will try to ride all day, and get as many of the cars as I can.
If you want to see their sisters running in Brooklyn, volunteer to help rebuild the interior of 70, and then when she's done, there are 13 more to go.
Fortunately I took my camera to work today, so I made my last PCC trip, since I can't make Thurston's Thursday trip nor can I go Friday. The Newark City Subway was crawling with foamers today, and will only get foamier as the week progresses.
Most of the operators were quite friendly. Mr. Quiñones showed me his camera during our pleasant banter.
My pictures are posted on Yahoo Photo as thumbnails.
Nice pictures, especially of #6. It looks like they did a really good job on the historic paint scheme. Even the 'visor' above the windshields has been removed to make the appearance that much more authentic; it's too bad the pantograph has to be there but it's necessary just like the one is on 3295 on the MBTA's green line. Wish I could be in Newark to see this...
-Robert King
Hey Jan K.Lorenzen, whats this about volunteering to work on 70? Wanna send me the details?
Car 70 is one of 12 sisters to the Newark PCC's here in Brooklyn. The cars come from same St. Louis Car order delivered to Minneapolis in 1947 as cars 21-25. Actually our 70 and Newark 21 are sequential in serial number.
The cars were last operated by Cleveland's RTA Shaker Heights lines from 1953 to 1985. They were sold to Buffalo's transit system in 1990 for a planned line, which never came to fruition. The Brooklyn Historic Railway bought all 12 cars and all the spare parts a few months ago. 11 cars are stored in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Car 70 is at the Beard St. Pier undergoing renovation. We had her running on our waterfront trackage July 3rd. The interior is now out of the car, and repairs to the car structure is underway. All seat frames need some sort of tube repair. All windows have been taken out for cleaning and repairs to replace the old crazed lexan and replaced back in the car. All labor is volunteer. What money we have goes toward materials and supplies.
The BHRA has 3 other PCC's from Boston, one is 98% restored, the other 2 are waiting their turn. The 15 cars are to be used for a Red Hook to downtown to Brooklyn Bridge Park routing. Plans are also to reutilize the 150+ year old LIRR Atlantic Ave tunnel from Columbia to Bond St.
See everybody tomorrow.
Is that route going to be revenue service, or nastalgia service? Volunteer restoration for revenue service doesn't sound right to me...
Las Vegas wagers $650M on monorail
By Scott Bowles
USA TODAY
Las Vegas is betting about $162 million a mile that it can beat the choking traffic
congestion on its famous Strip by building the biggest public monorail system in the
nation.
FULL STORY
Smart. But I doubt it will be extended to the airport; too much hue and cry will be raised by the powerful cab companies.
It is also being financed by the Major Strip Hotels where there will be stations, and a extension is planned to the airport
I'm suprised they're going to charge $2.50 for the fare -- usually the casinos will foot the bill for things like that (there already are two monorails on either side of Las Vegas Blvd. serving Bally's and the newer hotels around Tropicana Blvd.) with the idea that the more ways they can get people into their casinos, the better.
I bet Every Station and Car On the Monorail Have Slot Machines.
Unlikey since there's no way you could have security guards in each car.
>>> I'm suprised they're going to charge $2.50 for the fare -- usually the casinos will foot the bill for things like that <<<
You are thinking of the old days when the gamblers ran Las Vegas instead of the accountants.
This is one place where a monorail could be successful because of the lack of NIMBYs, but I bet they will go to a time based (24hour or two day pass) fare rather than a single ride fare, and it certainly will not be rapid, because every major casino on the strip looking for tourist dollars will insist on having its own air conditioned station.
Tom
<< it certainly will not be rapid, because every major casino on the strip looking for tourist dollars will insist on having its own air conditioned station. >>
I was in La$ Vega$ a few weeks ago. Believe me, even with a long dwelling time at each station the trip will be faster than crawling along in a cab on Las Vegas Blvd! Besides...monorails don't run the meter when you're standing in a station, like cabs do at a stoplight or when stuck in traffic.
I was in LV last week, and let me tell you... LV Blvd (aka the Strip) is like a two-way version of Broadway through Times Square. Slow crawl. I was in a taxi riding from a shopping mall to the Luxor hotel (where we were staying). It sure took a long time.
I've been having this daydream since leaving Las Vegas this past Wednesday. Instead of building a monorail down the Strip, it was a 4-track, 2-level concrete elevated (kinda like the Lexington Av Line, except the local tracks are beneath the express tracks). It would run from the airport, up the strip to Downtown, with provisions for other lines to serve the non-visitors.
The initial equipment for this line would be the remaining R33 and R36 cars. They would run in 12-car trains for most of the day, and cut back to 8 or 10 during the overnight (probably between 1 AM and 7 AM), running 24 hours a day.
All right, here it is, the proof that Qtraindash7 and Train Dude have been seeking for years, the information that will end this debate once and for all. Ready?
I boarded a Brooklyn-bound Q at Times Square this past Saturday and cozied up to the painted-over cab window where some clear patches had been scraped out. It was an R-68, I didn't get car numbers. We began southbound after a few minutes and actually beat an R-40 N train out of 34th St. However, I guess it was a trick of the light or something because I shifted around to see the speedometer--it read 0 the entire time. Qtraindash7 was right--not only are the hippos slower then the R-40s, they don't move at all!
Case closed.
Dan
Were you scared while stuck inside the beast ?
Did it's funny noises make you uncomfortable ?
But it did get you to your destination without mechanical incident ?
Mr t__:^)
It was the scariest experience of my life. (=
Dan
Perhaps the R40 had a car or 2 with dead traction motors.
Then again I have seen speedometers register 15 MPH when the train was stopped in a station. So there!!
That's a problem with the radar. My favorite is the R62A whose speedometer works, but in reverse. At a standstill, it registers 99; as the train begins to move, the speed shown decreases.
Too funny.
Of course the speedometer was that of a fast car class, like the R-32 or R-40, right? (=
Dan
I've seen that on the doppelar speedometers. If aimed incorrectly, they'll read fluorescent lights in inspection pits or sodium street lamps in the streed below.
Exactly! R68's don't move at all. They just change the scenery outside while you sit inseide. So that's why it feels so smooth!
:-D Andrew
Exactly! It's not any of this nonsense about longer wheelbases and heavier carbodies. They don't move!
Dan
Actually, it's all done with scenery roll curtains. :)
BINGO!!!! DING! DING! DING!!!
Ah - here we go again. I will not respond to this thread other than to say the fact that one R-68 train was faster than one R-40 train, operated on a different track, by a different operator, under different conditions, proves absolutely not a thing. How ever, if the reverse happened I'd have to say, "the fact that one R-40 train was faster than one R-68 train, operated on a different track, by a different operator, under different conditions, proves absolutely not a thing. Get the pernt?
Steve, reread his post, he apparently was making light of a broken speedometer on the R-68
I realized that he was doing just that. I hate that there's any excuse that this silly argument may start up again,though...
I promise not to stir up the murk again--really!
Dan
Sorry, I don't buy that.
Has anynoe seen the tunnel on a southbound "E" in manhattan somewhere near West 4th Street? There looks like there was suppose to be a branch that curved off the local tracks. This "branch" curves and then ends at a wall. I saw this riding the "E" downtown while in the first car. I'm not sure if it was before or after W4. I think it may have been after Canal Street where the "E" goes under the "A" & "C" tracks that go to Brooklyn.
There is a stub tunnel south of Canal that was intended to be used in the second phase of the IND. Check the track maps.
Don't see anything on the track maps. I figured it would be part IND second phase.
Just read about it on the IND second system pages. Thanx.
The Worth St. line, to be precise.
HMmmmmm.......
So The Houston Street Line was supposed to continue from Second Avenue into Brooklyn,,, This must have been (?) where the Eighth Avenue Line was supposed to make its second system run into Brooklyn.
There were to have come together in Brooklyn (maybe where they pass the G train or something, and then run out on Utica avenue were there is a shell station waiting for them.
Is (was) that the Scheme of things. I was wondering about those alignments.
Elias
You're on the right track (no pun intended). The "express" tracks on the Houston St. line were to continue to Brooklyn to S. 4th St. along with the Worth St. line plus two additional tracks turning off the 2nd Ave. line. The Utica Ave. line was one of two trunk lines coming out of S. 4th St., the Myrtle-Central Ave. line being the other. The 8th Ave. local tracks were to continue from where they end today at WTC and eventually be tied into the Fulton St. line via the Court St. stub, where the Transit Museum is today.
The 8th Ave. local tracks were to continue from where they end today at WTC and eventually be tied into the Fulton St. line via the Court St. stub, where the Transit Museum is today.
This is impossible. The tracks would first have to plow through a section of the Hudson Terminal, then descend one level within one or two blocks to clear the BMT, have to go under South Ferry and curve in the river to avoid crossing the IRT or BMT under it, and then go under blocks of wealthy Brooklyn Heights houses to get to where Schermerhorn Street begins.
The simpler explanation is that Downtown Brooklyn was a far more important destination in the 1920s when the IND was being planned. Having dedicated trains go there was not such a bad idea. This explains Crosstown. The other companies had the sense to send trains to Manhattan through the core of Brooklyn so as not to waste trains.
With the exception of the Bronx (where express service can only be part-time), no IND outer borough locals cross into Manhattan. The Fulton Street local terminates at Court Street and the Smith Street and Queens Boulevard locals feed into either end of the Crosstown line. The three IND East River tubes connect to the three outer borough expresses.
(By design, that is. In practice, the F switches immediately to the Smith Street local track, the A shares the express track with the C from Canal to Hoyt, and the connection from the Queens local to the BMT tube permits the R to run local in Queens.)
IMO, this was one of the IND's (numerous) mistakes.
A number of the lines that you mention were to eventually have connections to manhattan trunk lines. The Queens Blvd. Local was to have a connection into manhattan via the 63rd st tunnel and into 2nd avenue. And Court St. was to be connected into some line or another. (whether it was the E downtown or the 2nd av line). However, all of that never panned out, thanks to the fact that the second system never panned out.
The BMT also had a similar system. All the trains coming from the Brooklyn els either terminated in Downtown Brooklyn (right at Adams St.) or continued into manhattan via the Brooklyn Bridge and terminated immeadiately at Park Row. Only after the BMT began building subways and when they linked up to the manhattan Bridge did anything change. Even then, the Brighton local still ran up to the Fulton Local tracks.
The only other line that had express/local tracks was the 4th av subway, the only Brooklyn BMT subway (unless you count the link built to Prospect park/Dekalb). And, all 4th av trains had to continue through to manhattan. (it was the first subway there and fed into all the west side brooklyn lines.)
A number of the lines that you mention were to eventually have connections to manhattan trunk lines. The Queens Blvd. Local was to have a connection into manhattan via the 63rd st tunnel and into 2nd avenue. And Court St. was to be connected into some line or another. (whether it was the E downtown or the 2nd av line). However, all of that never panned out, thanks to the fact that the second system never panned out.
The IND never planned another under river tunnel to Queens. The 63rd Street tunnel was a 1960s project by the NYCTA and MTA which was long after the Second System was dead. The Court Street Stub was not likely to be connected to anything either, considering that Schermerhorn Street doesn't go through to the river.
The BMT also had a similar system. All the trains coming from the Brooklyn els either terminated in Downtown Brooklyn (right at Adams St.) or continued into manhattan via the Brooklyn Bridge and terminated immeadiately at Park Row.
The BMT wasn't a system centrally planned by the city, there was no excuse for the IND to build all those terminals in Downtown Brooklyn.
Brooklyn was an independent city, it didn't have the authority to award franchises to build lines in New York. I would blame the animosity between the BMT and IRT which gave the ridiculous system of divisions in the first place to the fact that the BMT els at Park Row were never connected to the IRT els in the same place.
Only after the BMT began building subways and when they linked up to the manhattan Bridge did anything change. Even then, the Brighton local still ran up to the Fulton Local tracks.
Runs. The Fulton Street line itself was supposed to be connected to DeKalb Avenue.
I would be interested in your view of the mistakes in the 2nd system that you refer to.
Lots of people on this site seem to enjoy bashing the IND. They point out faults with the IND, and magnify them, but never mention a word of the BMT and IRT's problems.
Personally I like that the IND has all those provisions for expansion. You never know when they might be needed. The long express runs in the Bronx and Queens are also big plus for the IND. The BMT has its nice railroad ROWs on the Brighton, Sea Beach and Canarsie lines and it had the best designs when it came to subway cars. The IRT by contrast has very closely-spaced stations and a lot of them. And there is no full-time express service on any of the Bronx or Queens lines.
Did I say anything about the Second System? You brought that up.
Yes, you are right. I meant to ask you about your view of the widespread flaws in the IND generally.
Here are a few:
Others have pointed out that the IND placed many of its lines to compete with existing IRT and BMT lines rather than to provide new service. Although subways are definitely preferable to els, I think we can all agree that it's better to have two areas served, one by subway and one by el, than to have only one served by subway.
The IND, as built, was isolated. Few of its major transfer points coincide with major BMT or IRT transfer points. Almost every interdivisional transfer point is a local stop on one line or the other, if not both. Downtown Brooklyn doesn't even have any interdivisional IND transfer points; the closest are at Franklin Avenue (a local stop on the A/C) and 4th Avenue-9th Street (a local stop on both the F and the M/N/R/W). The IRT and BMT were private companies in competition, yet they were able to share transfer points; why was the public IND unable to do the same?
You saw (and responded to) my earlier post condemning the IND's track arrangement, with locals in Brooklyn and Queens not making it to Manhattan. Furthermore -- and I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion here, since every railfan enjoys a brisk express run -- the express runs outside the CBD are way too long. That's great for people living out by the ends of the lines, but anyone stuck at a local station has to take a long, slow ride to the next express station and then transfer there to the express (since the local tracks end or turn off before Manhattan). Look at Queens Boulevard, where everyone crams onto the E and F, leaving the many forgotten local stops underserved. Look at Fulton Street, where the local passengers have to put up with the infrequent and short C. Look at Central Park West, where anyone who actually wants to get somewhere walks over to the 1/2/3/9.
You also forgot to mention the connection from the Crosstown at Bedford-Nostrand to the Myrtle-Central local (another example of Downtown Brooklynism), there's even room for a middle track at Classon, Clinton-Washington and Lafayette. All four tracks of the Utica Line would come out of South 4th.
Unles it is hidden somewhere, there is only a third trackway at Classon.
I assume room for a middle track means that I meant that there had to be 5 trackways, right?
There are 3 at Classon (N/B G, S/B G, unused trackway) and two at Clinton/Washington and Fulton (N/B G, S/B G.)
>>You also forgot to mention the connection from the Crosstown at Bedford-Nostrand to the Myrtle-Central local (another example of Downtown Brooklynism), there's even room for a middle track at Classon, Clinton-Washington and Lafayette.<<
What exactly are you referring to? Do you mean there's room for a middle track on the Crosstown-line, or on the Utica Line?
Crosstown line. There is a middle track at Bedford Nostrand (which is a pair of island platforms), and room for one at Classon, I think as far as Lafayette. East of Bed-Nost, the line switches from three to FOUR tracks. Those middle two tracks do not turn onto Marcy and were supposed to connect to the Myrtle-Central line.
Classon Ave. has room for a middle track, but I don't believe Clinton-Washington does. Forgive me if I'm a bit fuzzy; I haven't ridden on the G since 1987.
Clinton - Washington has room for only two tracks. I was there and saw for myself.
Thanks. I remember the first time I rode on what was then the GG, in February of 1968. We changed from an A at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. As we rode along, I couldn't help but notice all the side platforms. Fulton, Lafayette, Clinton-Washington. We got to Classon Ave. where I noticed the extra trackway in the middle. Hmmmmmm. How about a center island station? Then at Bedford-Nostrand, there it was, with a middle track and "All trains this side" signs along the platform. Then it was back to side platforms. We got off at Metropolitan Ave. I was a half hour late for Saturday school. There must have been a problem on the Canarsie that morning because no trains showed up at 8th Ave.
With Newark about to be modernized, it's time to update the last PCC operation on the East Coast, the Mattapan-Ashmont line.
Since the first of the year, the line has been pretty quiet, with no new arrivals from the rebuild program, and fairly reliable service on the route. Despite the obvious need for a ninth car in service over the winter, 3260 did not enter service until late March. This was a result of a need to move the rebuild program from Orient Heights to Riverside, which prevented the staff from paying much attention to 3260. Finally in mid march a series of burn-in runs started and the car entered passenger service at the end of the month. With the added car, a series of cars slipped out of service for varying periods of time including 3238, 3234, 3230, 3262 and 3254. Last week both of the latter were dead. 3254 did receive rebuilt trucks from Everett recently, resulting in a vast improvement in passenger comfort, but both 3234 and 3238 have since developed flat wheels on one truck.
Rebuild 3260, after a shaky start has built up a decent record of reliability, with competing with unrebuilt 3232 for the top spot in reliability and comfort. 3265 has developed a problem with dragging brake shoes.
Jonathan Belcher reports that the rebuild program has focused on 3263, moving that car ahead of 3287 in the expected order of return. To the amazement and consternation of the shop forces, 3087 was found to still have its original wood and canvas roof, a feature which was supposed to have been eliminated in the rebuild of the early 1980s. Apparently, the replacement of the original roof with steel was dropped from the rebuild of this car and 3086 (which followed it and was the last of its type rebuilt). In any event, the need to decide what to do has held up 3087, and 3263 has been put on the fast track!
In the order of delivery back in 1945, GE cars 3147 to 3171 came first, followed by Westinghouses 3072 to 3096 (3171 and 3072 were experimental cars, the first to use circuit breakers instead of fuses). After an interval, production resumed with GEs 3172 to 3196 followed by Westinghouses 3222 to 3271 in late 1945 through the spring of 1946 and finally GEs 3197 to 3221 in the summer of 1946, which were delivered as all electric cars with post-war bodies. This left a space of almost a year between the delivery of 3087 and the high 3260s now in service. When it returns to service, it will become the oldest regular service transit vehicle to ever operate in Boston, surpassing the old East Boston Tunnel cars which entered service in April 1924 and lasted to 1980 totalling 56 years. Since its arrival in the spring of 1945, 3087 has remained on the active roster for 56 years and will celebrate its 57th birthday in the spring of 2002.
Service in the summer of 2001 requires 5 cars for rush hours, three at midday and on Saturday and two for evenings and Sundays. At other times, six cars are needed for morning and evening rush, while the early afternoon still gets 5.
Available as of Aug 16 were:
3230, 3232, 3234, 3238, 3260, 3265 and 3268
Out of Service:
3087 (rebuild), 3254, 3262 and 3263 (rebuild)
Regards,
Gerry
I railfanned the Mattapan-Ashmont line last Friday afternoon. The five cars included the three orange PCCs (3260, 3265, 3268) and two green cars (3232 and 3234).
The rebuilt orange cars look great. There did seem to be a lot of noise coming from the trucks on these cars, however. Also, the cars have no property markings whatsoever. This is good, in a way – the traction orange paint scheme these cars wear was replaced by the darker tangerine orange during the MTA era, so it wouldn’t be accurate to put a circle ‘T’ on these cars.
Interestingly, it has always appeared to me that 3260’s headlight was located slightly higher on the dash after its rebuild in 1980. The headlight still looks high to me, even after the latest reworking.
Now that the MBTA is fixing up the PCC car fleet, they really need to fix up the stations. I visited all of the stations between the two terminals except Central Avenue, and it is fair to say that most of them haven’t seen new paint in quite some time. The signage at the stations is pretty worn, too.
Jim D.
It would be great if they did fix up the stations, but it seems like the MBTA doesn't care as much about the lower-class neighborhoods as the more prestigous ones; I'm sure they are not the only transit agency to do this. Just compare the Braintree and Ashmont lines and you'll see what i am talking about. -Nick
For railfanning purposes, how safe are the station areas along the Mattapan-Ashmont line?
There pretty safe. However you shoud use caution in the Mattapan area of the line.
Go in the daytime, don't make eye contact, and don't use any racial slurs and you should be find....unless you get unlucky and are mugged at random. -Nick
I waited at the Main St. CSX grade crossing in Cambridge MA between 1.50pm and 3.05pm for a train that was meant to arrive around 2.30pm. No train. Yesterday I arrived at 2.45pm only to be told that it passed at around 2.20pm.
GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you are only a railfan, think about the poor schmuck waiting for his voxcar!
What? You expect a freight train to be on time? What country are you from? This is America, buddy. Timetable, schmimetable. You get it when we get it there. Now pay me, and maybe I'll let the Amtrak train through. Or maybe I won't. The Public Be Damned!
Hey Pete, I've sat on corridors on the Midwest many a times only to see the same train pass at same time each day. In particular, I almost always see an intermodal train pass Marion on the NS line at between 5.40pm and 6.20pm weekdays, going northbound. There's usually three or four power units. I understand that yard working on secondaries won't be so good, but then it shouldn't be so bad either...
Pardon my flippance. As a member of the National Assoc. of RR Passengers, I have read about too many Amtrak delays resulting from freight dispatching and scheduling foul-ups (mostly CSX, and always the Three Rivers in Ohio). I find the Class 1s attitude toward passenger trains to be patronizing at best and hostile usually. But what do you expect when CSX has to use crazy glue, which they pay for, to keep their ROW operational so they can pay property taxes to the gubmint so the gubmint can spend it on roads, runways and Trent Lott's shipyard in Mis-sipi.
hah, I can trust NARP to accuse the RR's for damning the public. It is true to say that the dispatching record for the Three Rivers is far from good (and as you know, since I'm frequently in Marion, I would be using the Three Rivers to reach Fostoria a lot). I was there that morning when the CSX ex-B&O main's Deshler diamond flew apart under a train and they had to go hack bits off another diamond to mend it. Anyhow -- that having been said, I don't think class I's are all bad. The ontime record on the ex-CR mains are considerably better than the other CSX ones. NS doesn't really do that badly I don't think.
And don't think I'm all that hostile to the Class 1s. I was trying to point out how their attitude towards passenger trains, while dubious, is understandable. Railroading is a beleagured industry in general, and I have never known NARP to speak in any kind of accusatory manner towards the Freights (they save that for the ubiquitous highway lobby), so don't confuse my sentiments with those of the organization. I think NARP realizes that what's good for CSX/UP/NS etc., is good for railroading as a whole, so they merely report the delays, or not, as warranted. It's well known that a huge hurdle for Amtrak is their use of freight ROWs dispatchers and competition for access with freight trains, which is the cause of most delays. In a dream world, I would love to see dedicated passenger ROWs in most interurban corridors in the U.S. Since that's not possible, we have to find a way to convince CSX and NS that there are benefits to them in conveying passenger trains. This is the hard part. And by the way, as a railfan, I am as asthetically enamored of a rumbling freight as the next one. Standing along the wayside enjoying the sights is a little different, however, than sitting for hours on a passing siding while the cafe car runs out of food and you made the mistake of thinking that 14-turning-into-20 hours in coach class wouldn't be so bad.
Railroading is a beleagured industry
While I don't want to attack you or the NARP, Pete, I wonder if this is precisely the kind of attitude that keeps the RR's from doing something about the current situation. My command of the English Language is not the best so please excuse me if I misunderstand what you mean by "beleagured" -- I will look it up later (no dictionary handy in the computer lab). What I mean to say here is that the RR's need to realize there is a new way of running trains that save delays for everybody, and that is called scheduled operation. In transportation, you pay for flexibility -- and over the years the operating guys have been allowing themselves to run the railroad in a way that doesn't really deliver the product which people want, and allowing money to flow out the door. Look at it this way -- which other railroad system, other than the great North American ones, use two 4,000hp locomotives to pull just a few boxcars? The same applies to track paths.
As for Amtrak Cafe car running out of fude while sitting in a siding, personally I quite like the quality time I enjoy as other customers get irate and start pissing each other off. Other than observing people, I have also found it to be a perfect opportunity to engage in conversations with fellow people, try to drum up some enthusiasm for the railroad, educate Amtrak riders (and sometimes staff) about problems that arise, and tell a few railroaders' "big fuck-up" tales that make sitting in a siding seem like nothing. I do somewhat resent the lack of an Amtrak dating guarentee, however.
From the Railpace website.
NEWARK CITY SUBWAY PCC FAREWELL CEREMONIES ANNOUNCED: Dignitaries, customers and railfans will join together on Friday, August 24 to say good-bye to a piece of transportation history as NJ TRANSIT retires the Presidents' Conference Committee (PCC) cars that have carried millions of customers on the Newark City Subway. The following Monday, August 27, NJ TRANSIT officials -- including Executive Director Jeffrey A. Warsh -- will greet Newark City Subway customers during the morning rush hour as they take their first rides on the new light rail vehicles (LRVs). A new schedule for the Newark City Subway will also begin on this day. Customers can pick up this timetable during the week of August 20. The Newark City Subway opened on May 26, 1935 using cars similar to those operated on street trolley lines. At the height of its operation, the City Subway's underground portion carried seven trolley lines, which operated to Bloomfield, Caldwell, East Orange, Jersey City, Montclair, Newark and Orange. Eventually, all of those lines except one -- the No. 7 City Subway -- were converted to bus operation. The PCC cars made their debut in the Newark City Subway on January 8, 1954. Public Service Coordinated Transport -- NJ TRANSIT's predecessor -- purchased 30 cars from Twin Cities Rapid Transit (Minneapolis-St. Paul) for $350,000. Today, 24 of those cars remain with NJ TRANSIT. After their retirement, NJ TRANSIT will donate three PCC cars to the New Jersey Transportation Heritage Center, which will be built in Phillipsburg. The other 21 PCC cars will remain on NJ TRANSIT property while the Corporation searches for suitable New Jersey locations where they can be restored and put into local service. The following events are planned in connection with the PCC retirement and the start of LRV operation:
Friday, August 24
12 noon: Ceremony at Branch Brook Park Station (formerly Franklin Avenue Station) with NJ TRANSIT Executive Director Jeffrey A. Warsh, State Assembly Transportation Committee Chairman Alex DeCroce and other elected officials The event will begin with dignitaries' arrival on a special PCC car. The event will celebrate the PCC cars' history and formally retire these historic vehicles. PCC car memorabilia will be available for sale.
7:30 p.m. (approximately): Substitute bus service begins for regular Newark City Subway customers. Substitute bus service will operate every 10-20 minutes until 12:45 a.m.
8 p.m.: Commemorative "last rides" on the PCC cars begin. Anyone wishing to take a "last ride" on the PCC cars must go to Newark Penn Station. Tickets for these rides will be issued, and customers will board PCC cars, on a first-come, first-served basis at Newark Penn Station. No more than 50 customers will be allowed per PCC car. "Last ride" service will operate every three minutes. Each "last ride" will consist of one round trip between Newark Penn Station and Branch Brook Park (formerly Franklin Avenue). Customers will board and detrain at Newark Penn Station only. Newark City Subway customers that wish to use other stations must board substitute buses at the usual location (Lane 1A) in the Newark Penn Station bus lanes. The cars will stop only at Newark Penn Station. The "last rides" will conclude with a PCC car arriving back into Newark around 10 p.m.
Saturday, August 25 and Sunday, August 26: The Newark City Subway will be closed. Regular weekend substitute bus service will be operated.
Monday, August 27: Customers should pick up new Newark City Subway schedules that take effect today. Service using new LRVs begins with the first train departing Branch Brook Park Station at 4:35 a.m. NJ TRANSIT Executive Director Jeffrey A. Warsh, other officials, and NJ TRANSIT staff will be on hand at selected stations during morning peak period to greet customers. Executive Director Warsh is expected to be available between 7 a.m. and 8:30 a.m.
Mark, do you know what, if any, type of 'commemorative souvenirs' might be given out to riders on Friday night?
BMTman
Bring a wrench, just in case. One of them seats would be the highlight to any living room set. :)
Thanks, Kev, I knew I could count on you for some insight...;-)
BMTman
You don't suppose Haypaul is contemplating building a PCC motorman's console to go with his R-9 cab, do you?
one can never be too sure.
Heh. Always willing to do my bit to finish that Heypaul ensemble. :)
heypaul only likes greyhound seats, plus there is no "cab" in this thing.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. Gotta seat the geese somewhere ... or does he already have straps on the ceiling? Nope, better not ask. :)
Maybe a long flatbed tow truck
Someone's likely to NOTICE that. Heh.
If you have a hard hat and a clipboard, you can get away with anything!
THAT'S the spirit! Nice to know cojones are not out of style yet. :)
I'd been given the impression, from several emails between myself and a few friends, that the commemorative souvenirs are being sold instead of being given away. I'd expect things like T shirts, coffee mugs etc.
-Robert King
Robert is correct. There were be a number of items sold, including t-shirts, posters, hats, and some real nice things. You will be able to order the PCC replica cars as well (there was an initial offering to the public that was sold out).
Michael
Do you have to be there in person to order any of this stuff? I wouldn't mind getting a few things; I had planned to be in Newark for Thursday and Friday in order to attend the retirement ceremonies except my plans fell through and consequently I won't be there.
Thanks,
Robert King
Bob--
All of the items will be sold through the Transit Shoppe (located on the NJ TRANSIT website) once the ceremonies (including Monday's LRV startup) are through.
Some of the things will be sold Friday at the ceremony at Branch Brook/Franklin Ave and in Penn Station for the last rides at night.
Michael
Yes, i'd like to know where to order a t-shirt or a poster of this event,any info would be appreciated as i couldn't get any info on the New Jersey transit web site,any info would be appreciated thankyou....Karl
NJTransit has a store, they were handling the souvineers and t-shirts at the retirement party.
I am pretty sure the store is online too.
karl... i picked up a couple of extra posters on friday...they were $5... if you want one,e-mail me... paul
According to NJ Transit's August "FYI" brochure, "last ride" attendees will be given certificates. Also, the post office has created a commemorative cancellation stamp.
In today's New York Times (p. B3), an article appears entitled "An Old Rivalry, a Quiet Conveyance." The article discusses the rivalry between the IRT, BMT and IND systems, and states that the IND subway was constructed for the very purpose of driving the BMT and IRT out of business, so that they could be taken over by the City of New York (which is, of course, what in fact happened).
A picture accompanying the article shows an AA 8th Avenue train in the 42nd Street station. The caption reads: "A train on the Independent Subway System's Eighth Avenue subway line pulled into the 42nd Street station in 1932." The year 1932 is when, according to the article, the IND system was constructed.
The caption doesn't seem right to me. Although I'm not an expert on subway cars, the design of the car shown appears to be newer than 1932. Moreover, if you look carefully, the tiles on the wall behind the train are badly stained, indicating that the picture could not have been taken when the subway line was new.
Does anyone know about when the picture was actually taken? I'm quite sure that it must have been later than 1932.
The train is of the right generation, it's an early R-type (can't see the car number). (Nice side railfan window! These got removed later on...) as for the bad tile, well, lowest bidder might explain that! :-)
The photo in the Times' article was taken in August of 1932, a few weeks before service began on September 10th.
The photo was one of the local days' test runs, where full schedules were operated in anticipation of the opening.
This photo graces the cover of "BUILDING THE INDEPENDENT SUBWAY".
So then the reason the station looks like that is that the subway was not yet finished?
Peace,
ANDEE
That's how the 42nd St. station looked in 1932. Those "42" porcelain signs on the pillars were still there in the late 60s.
That's also how the R-1s looked when they were brand spanking new.
It was finished, but the City was delaying the opening of the IND. Possible reasons were that IND would have to be run at cost sooner or later, which meant a higher than 5 cent fare charged by the BMT and IRT.
IIRC, the merchants on 8th Avenue finally took the issue to Court to force the opening. That was done on September 10, 1032.
I'm 99% sure that it's brake dust covering the tiles. If the picture was taken before the line opened to the public during the testing period the test trains that were running would have had plenty of time to leave brake dust behind - especially since the R1 - R9 cars used at the time didn't have dynamic braking (to the best of my knowledge).
-Robert King
If anyone wants to read the article online -- if you're registered -- the link is here.
I am quoted towards the end of it...
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
"I suppose there's some fans who could tell you that a vent
is different or window bracket, but I sure couldn't," said Paul Matus,
Therein lies the difference between the R-6-2 and its brethren.
The fans are different; and the little white lites have scalloped edges. Very nice touches. Too bad only ONE R-6-2 is still in existence and it's a snack bar over in England. Phooey.
wayne
Actually, I can tell the difference between 1575 and the other R-1/9s.
Even without my glasses. ;-)
Ah, 1575. The R-10 imposter. The butt of jokes among its sister units. Stuck out like a sore thumb in a consist.
And to think I never saw it in revenue service.
To me, 1575 will alway be the poster child for the NYCTA's deferred maintenance of the late 1960s and early 1970s, since when I first met it while going on a class field trip to the Hayden Planetarium in 1969 on the LL line, both door leaves on the second door from the front of the car were locked shut, but the car was kept in service.
It took a bit of scrabling to get a class of sixth graders into the car through the other entrances, but it was fun to watch the reaction on people's faces on the platform from inside the car when we got to Third Ave. Too bad it turned out to be an omen of things to come for the MTA over the next 15 years.
Sticking doors on the R-1/9s were common by then. They had fallen victim to the new-cars-are-on-the-way-so-let's-not-bother-with-the-old-ones mentality. The funny thing is, I rode on the R-7/9s on the Canarsie quite a bit in 1969-70 and hardly ever saw a door leaf that didn't open.
Yeah, the earlier ones that only came out to play for rush hour put-ins were the basket cases of the fleet. I remember one in the low 600 series that had only ONE door leaf on the car that opened on one side. If the car platformed on the other side, no dice. Saw it somewhere on the railroad every day because it HAD motors and lights.
The GOOD stuff went out to Jamaica ...
Are you sure it wasn't 666?:-)
The fuzzy mem says "614" ... either 614 or 624 ... but for the entire time I was on the railroad, only one leaf worked, and it was out nearly every day. I remember seeing it a couple of years later, still out on the railroad, still not opening up except that one end leaf so my guess is that they never did fix it until it got cut up.
Riding 1575 was very strange. It looked like an R10 but it rode and SOUNDED like an R1-9 (which it really was).
Kind of like a cat barking.
And speedsters to boot, right? 1233 has the A-440 moniker associated with it.
Good article by Kennedy. There was even quotes from some guy named Paul Matus and a Harry Beck....whoever they are....;-D
BMTman
And David Vartanoff. Nice to see some more media whores within the SubTalk crowd. :-)
Cool article!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Boy, this guy really blew it on this one.
Kennedy could have called the IND what it really is -- public works done right. He derides the City's "municipal might and right", yet in the same breath points out that it was due to this power that the IND has its speedy straightaways (clearly a strong suit). A far more honest description of this scenario would have been "municipal power used for public good".
Furthermore, Kennedy's "analogy" comparing the IND to a "rich guy" who is putting little guys out of business is nothing short of offensive. Indeed, any sort of comparison to private enterprise is completely improper. A private business exists solely to make money; depending on the circumstances, it may or may not be necessary for it to provide "good" service in order to achieve this. By contrast, the IND was built as a part of the public infrastructure. The goal was service first, profit second (if ever).
Now, adherents to the orthodox religion of capitalism will tell you that this is a flaw. In reality, however, a public transit system -- like a public health system, a public education system, etc. -- is part of the infrastructure of a decent society.
Services of this nature ought to be regarded as essential, and should be funded to the extent neccesary for them to work properly. If these essential services wind up with a surplus, great; pour it back into the budget. If not, then so be it. It is absurd to require that public service entities show a monetary profit. The only "profit" which they show is the benefit to society that the services bring. (Same thing goes for the Postal Service, and Amtrak for that matter.)
Kennedy, in his effort to be a snarky smartass, totally failed to convey the meaning and importance of the IND. And he even failed at being a snarky smartass, clumsily employing both the "rich guy" analogy and the "Red Mike" nickname (which I as an actual red find laughable).
This guy utterly missed the train.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Next time when you see an inquiry from Kennedy on here looking for people to talk to you should call him up! :-)
-Dave
Right on Dave !
Kennedy did indeed, through Dave, ask for our help.
Mr t__:^)
Furthermore, Kennedy's "analogy" comparing the IND to a "rich guy" who is putting little guys out of business is nothing short of offensive. Indeed, any sort of comparison to private enterprise is completely improper. A private business exists solely to make money; depending on the circumstances, it may or may not be necessary for it to provide "good" service in order to achieve this. By contrast, the IND was built as a part of the public infrastructure. The goal was service first, profit second (if ever).
Nothing could be further from the truth - the GOAL of the NYC Board of Transporation in building the IND was to drive all private enterprise out of the transit market. The service it provided was secondary to that goal. A private company doing the same thing would have been brought up on anti-trust charges!
In 1993 an editorial appeared in Barron's about the city takeover of the subway system. Barron's wrote: "The fundamental problem of New York, as reflected in its subway system, is the pattern of using public funds to lure private investment in fixed structures, which are then regulated into insolvency and taken over for the public to ruin. This is a long and tedious process -- the public is still using ... facilities first opened in 1904 that haven't been operated on a sound financial footing since 1918, that haven't shown a profit since 1932 and that have been out of private hands since 1940. A good investment endures long after the people who make it, and long after the people who steal it." (Source: Barron's 12/13/93, page 10)
BMT-Lines.COM
Right! an editorial from an investor rag as historical proof. I think not. While I am not as unhappy with Mr. Kennedy's article as others, I take a backseat to noone in my support for PUBLIC SERVICES. In many previous posts I have tried to outline why I believe private investment has no business in mass transit. The numbers are inexorable--the capital investment for full rush hour capacity cannot be repaid from the farebox with fares which do not discourage usage. Its a conundrum insoluble by capitalist ideologues. Kind of like NYFD, NYPD, etc. are supposed to make a profit? The profit is not having your building burn down!.
Now some further thoughts about the IND. Take a look at the track map south of West 4th st. No other subway in NA comes close in complexity. This system was designed for the future. If the depression etc had not stalled the Second System New York would trult have a magnificent system. And there is something to be said for NOT having to expand station capacity in over six decades.
Ultimately, though, to me the IND was a fait accompli when I moved to NYC in 1966 and the interdivisional rivalry struck my as being as dumb as the same crap between parts of DOD. I was excited by the subway as a whole(it is so much larger than the Chicago system I had discovered as a child). And there were the mysteries of why were there so many boarded off stairs at Second Ave? So indeed there are rollsign boxes here in my dining room. See ya on the subway.
In many previous posts I have tried to outline why I believe private investment has no business in mass transit. The numbers are inexorable--the capital investment for full rush hour capacity cannot be repaid from the farebox with fares which do not discourage usage
I disagree. I believe it's possible for a mass transit system to make a profit. For example, in Sao Paulo, the subway is owned by the goverment and is run by a quasi-private gov't agency. The agency, for all intents and purposes, is private becuase they recieve no subsudies whatsoever, except for eldery and handicapped passes. They go to banks for the capital needed for construction. Not only do they a make a profit, they actually are bidding to build subways in other South American cities! And the fare is the equivalant of about only $0.70. It's very possible to have a subway that makes a profit, however I believe that transportation is a vital component of society and that the gov't should subsidize mass transit to the fullest, if need be.
while I am not expert on Sao Paolo politics, I suggest the following. 1. the agency does not pay real estate taxes on the ROW(subsidy!) 2. I doubr seriously that staff make wages anywhere near TWU represented TA wages. (lower cost of business) So I question the "profitability". Some ten years back Joel Garreau reported in Edge Cities that exactly one mass transit system worlfwide actually turned a profit--the Hong Kong System (swimming is non competitive)
While Sao Paulo Metro workers most likely get paid less than US workers, a profit is still a profit. The $.70 fare adjusts for that difference in operating costs. SP started earning a profit starting around 1996-7, and by 1998 or so, made a profit every month since. Does the Hong-Kong system pay real estate taxes? Probably not.
however I believe that transportation is a vital component of society and that the gov't should subsidize mass transit to the fullest, if need be.
But is it needed? If fares in nearly, if not all American cities were raised to the level needed to break even, not enough people would ride. In many such places the system would never be able to turn a profit and would end up going into Chapter 7. In those places, a railroad system has no place.
The reason that transit has to be subsidized to exist is because of American subsidy of roads and encouragement of wasteful sprawl. If motorists and suburbanites were charged the true cost of their drive/lifestyle, people would be clamoring to live in cities and ride mass transit.
Mass transit has to be subsidized in order to remain competitive with roads at this time, but it shouldn't be that way.
As for busses, they are mainly a vehicle for those who cannot drive for one reason or another. In that case, passes for the young, old, poor and infirm could be paid for by the local department of social services.
Ideally, each mode of transport would have to pay for themselves, I agree and support that. However, the reality is that roads will always be heavily subsidized, as well as mass transit to a lesser extent. Mobility is the key to a successful society, highways obviously do not work, so the gov't should put enough money into transit for proper mobilty.
the interdivisional rivalry struck my as being as dumb as the same crap between parts of DOD
If you're talking about interdivisional rivalry in terms of employees I can agree with you - BUT many railfans have their favorite rail system / company. Just look at the various historical societies and websites dedicated to fallen flags such as the Erie Lackawanna, Penn Central, PRR, NYO&W, etc. Myself - I like the BMT so much I created and dedicated a web site to its memory:
BMT-Lines.com
And the more research I did into the BMT the more I grew to admire it - the Bluebirds were ages ahead of their time - yet the city promptly squelched that concept in favor of the boxes on wheels it called subway cars. In a February 8, 1939 editorial entitled "It's Done With Mirrors", The New York Times stated that the Bluebird "will make each trip to work a delightful adventure, each evening's homeward journey a period of happy relaxation" . If the B.M.T. had come this far by the late 1930's just imagine how much more they could have done if they had remained in business
I also differ with you in that I do not compare subway service to the NYPD or NYFD. I believe that subways can be operated as regulated public utilities. Electricity, heat and telephone service is JUST as necessary as transportation yet these are privately owned and operated.
Let me say that I have had the "pleasure" of dealing with billing problems between myself and Con Edison, and the NYC Water Board. Con Edison resolved the problem courteously and quickly over the phone. A similar problem with NYC Water dragged on for months and the employees I dealt with over the phone were rude, and very UN-HELPFUL. I have found that dealing with government agencies is a NIGHTMARE. That is one of the reasons I don't necessarily feel government always acts in the "public interest". Their attitude is "customer be damned". Likewise, did the TA even care about Astoria when they ripped out the great T and QT/QB services and replaced them with the lousy RR in 1967?
Back to subways - Many people cite the need to subsidise the fare. I feel that the need for subsidy can be separated from ownership - intercity busses and trucks are subsidized through government funding and construction of highways. Airlines are subsidised since the government provides airports and air traffic control services. Profit-making sports clubs are subsidized - look at the Mets and Yankees - I dont think the "rent" they pay even begins to cover the cost of the stadiums NYC built for them. So a formula to subsidise transit could have been found without resorting to total government ownership and control. And today we would have been riding the Bluebirds' successors to work!!
As to the 'quality' of customer service, I have had equally lousy experiences with both the 'state' and the state licensed 'privates'. Thast said crappy service is inexcusable in either case. Ultimately, I believe one person, one vote has a better chance than one share one vote.
Now as to BMT innovation and experimentation, yes I am aware, and mentioned same to Kennedy. However, despite the technological backwardness of the IND with regard to rolling stock, I am still impressed by the structural work. Of course I think more artistic tile work could habe been nicer, OTOH look at the State St Sunway in Chicago--makes the IND look positively gorgeous--plain concrete walls you know. Still it got built and the trains run.
Very, very loudly, I might add.
Nothing could be further from the truth - the GOAL of the NYC Board of Transporation in building the IND was to drive all private enterprise out of the transit market.
Well, don't make "driv[ing] all private enterprise out of the transit market" sound like such a bad thing. It's not like the IRT and BMT lines were boarded up. The services were still there, but now as part of a single, integrated municipal system. (The services that were eliminated -- namely elevateds -- were replaced with better underground lines or were intended to be replaced.)
The service it provided was secondary to that goal.
Well, the "Hylan-as-Napoleon" theory -- wherein the evil dictator assembles a grand empire of subways, all to his greater glory -- may be comforting to some. But, it ignores the fact that consolidation under City ownership brought with it inherent service benefits such as coordinated scheduling and inter-division transfers, not to mention laying the groundwork for future expansion such as Christie Street.
A private company doing the same thing would have been brought up on anti-trust charges!
And rightfully so. This highlights the fundamental difference between private entities and public ones. If a single company ran the system, when the system encountered financial difficulties, the company would simply close the less profitable portions. This would clearly be counter to the public interest. A subway owned by municipal "monopoly", on the other hand, has the benefit that it could be subsidized by other parts of the budget, for instance by taxes and tolls generated by automobile traffic.
(Here one might mention the fact that our City-owned subway experienced periods of decline due to deferred maintenence. However, it is important to remember that this was due not to a lack of available funding mechanisms (and therefore not indicative of any kind of fundamental flaw in the concept of municipal ownership); but, rather to a lack of political will and leadership.)
In 1993 an editorial appeared in Barron's about the city takeover of the subway system. Barron's wrote: "The fundamental problem of New York, as reflected in its subway system, is the pattern of using public funds to lure private investment in fixed structures, which are then regulated into insolvency and taken over for the public to ruin. This is a long and tedious process...
True, in a sense. The whole thing should have been a public endeavor from the beginning.
...the public is still using ... facilities first opened in 1904 that haven't been operated on a sound financial footing since 1918, that haven't shown a profit since 1932...
There's that orthodox religion I was talking about. This is a nonsensical standard by which to judge the system. Judged by a more applicable standard, one could observe that the system still does its job superbly, and is thus returning a huge benefit to society.
Of course, it would be returning even a greater benefit if the IND's Second System (including the 2nd Ave. replacement for the East Side els) had been built as planned, instead of having been scuttled by that crisis caused by the inherent instability of capitalism known as the Depression.
Ferdinand Cesarano
well said
It's not like the IRT and BMT lines were boarded up. The services were still there, but now as part of a single, integrated municipal system. (The services that were eliminated -- namely elevateds -- were replaced with better underground lines or were intended to be replaced.)
Major lines that were never replaced:
Myrtle and Lexington Avenue els
2nd and 3rd Avenue els
fact that consolidation under City ownership brought with it inherent service benefits such as coordinated scheduling and inter-division transfers
No coordinating scheduling, ever. Chrystie Street is not coordination, it's thru-routing, and that not until 27 years later.
No interdivisional transfers (except for replaced lines--zero sum game) until the City DOUBLED the 5c fare.
not to mention laying the groundwork for future expansion such as Christie Street.
Ha, you are playing wiz Pierre, oui? You are making zee joke?
Chrystie Street was the tiniest part of the 2nd Avenue subway, and it never fulfilled its service promises, even when both sides of the bridge were open.
private company doing the same thing would have been brought up on anti-trust charges!
rightfully so. This highlights the fundamental difference between private entities and public ones. If a single company ran the system, when the system encountered financial difficulties, the company would simply close the less profitable portions. This would clearly be counter to the public interest. A subway owned by municipal "monopoly", on the other hand, has the benefit that it could be subsidized by other parts of the budget, for instance by taxes and tolls generated by automobile traffic.
Oh, wow! Reality check time. Under their franchises, the private companies were not permitted to close down unproftable branches. The Manhattan els were an albatross around the neck of the IRT. But when the municipal public good monopoly took over, what was the very first thing they did?
Discontinued the entire 9th Avenue el
Discontinued the 2nd Avenue el south of 59th Street
Discontinued the 5th Avenue Brooklyn el
Discontinued the Fulton Street el
In ensuing years:
Brooklyn Bridge service gone
Myrtle gone
Lexington el gone
Rest of 2nd avenue gone
3rd Avenue (tip of Manhattan to the northern tip of the Bronx) gone
Brooklyn's entire trolley system gone
Five cent fare gone (after just 8 years--would've been sooner except for WWII)
System allowed to go to hell, service AND infrastructure, to extend the 15 cent fare
Ah, yes, public power for the public good.
(Here one might mention the fact that our City-owned subway experienced periods of decline due to deferred maintenence. However, it is important to remember that this was due not to a lack of available funding mechanisms (and therefore not indicative of any kind of fundamental flaw in the concept of municipal ownership); but, rather to a lack of political will and leadership.)
Short translation: when they could no longer bully a private company to do someth8ing, they simply dropped the ball.
The whole thing should have been a public endeavor from the beginning.
There were those who thought so, q.v., The Triborough System. But they realized the City didn't have the money. When the City embraked on the IND system, they still didn't have the money. So they borrowed it and spent it anyway.
The shortest answer to why there is no Second System.
...the public is still using ... facilities first opened in 1904 that haven't been operated on a sound financial footing since 1918, that haven't shown a profit since 1932...
There's that orthodox religion I was talking about. This is a nonsensical standard by which to judge the system. Judged by a more applicable standard, one could observe that the system still does its job superbly, and is thus returning a huge benefit to society.
Did I miss something? Is someone advocating discontinuing the subway system?
It does its job at huge expense to the public purse. This is all right. The service is needed. But previously the job was done with large infusions of private capital and risk. But the City wanted all the golden eggs for itself. Harry A. Gordon, Hylan's Corporation Counsel, argued that the subway's profits should be pouring into the Municipal coffers. Did you catch that--the subways would subsidize the City? ROTFLMYA! The City exhibited what it always accuses the private sector of: Greed and Arrogance.
Of course, it would be returning even a greater benefit if the IND's Second System (including the 2nd Ave. replacement for the East Side els) had been built as planned, instead of having been scuttled by that crisis caused by the inherent instability of capitalism known as the Depression.
The Depression actually helped complete the first system by lowering the costs of capital and labor.
To paraphrase Gertude in Hamlet:
Do not for ever with imaged proofs
Seek for thy noble Second System in the dust.
Thou know'st 'tis common. All that lives must die,
And some is ne'er even born
Passing through history to SubTalk postings.
First, it is true that the 1920s predictions about the municipal subway's profitablity were completely wrong, and it is also true that the erroneous expectation that the subway would add to the City's coffers was a major reason that it was built. The IND was not built as a civic-minded project to provide a public service. Therefore, my assertion about public service having been the "goal" of the IND was wrong.
Nevertheless, from a historical perspective, the fact that the IND made no profits while providing a public service is not at all damning. Given its scope, that it costs money to run is no great surprise, and certainly no scandal.
ME: If a single company ran the system, when the system encountered financial difficulties, the company would simply close the less profitable portions. This would clearly be counter to the public interest. A subway owned by municipal "monopoly", on the other hand, has the benefit that it could be subsidized by other parts of the budget, for instance by taxes and tolls generated by automobile traffic.
PAUL: Oh, wow! Reality check time. Under their franchises, the private companies were not permitted to close down unproftable branches.
I think the key word here it permitted, and it also applies to the companies' inabilty to raise the fare from 5 cents.
The private companies couldn't actually close the unprofitable sections (or raise the fare) because, if I am not mistaken, they were not strictly speaking the true "owners". The IRT and BRT were lessees and operators of the system, but the City in fact owned it, and the companies' leases imposed some limits on their behavior.
This is a fact which isn't usually addressed, since for most practical purposes, the companies acted like owners. But, in this case it is important, since a private company with a truly free hand would certainly have dumped the els (as well as, over time, some subway lines, had they retained that free hand) and raised the fare significantly. The public interest was protected only by the fact of the City's ownership.
Of course, you will say that the City took the els down. But, as I mentioned in the first post, in most cases (not every case) with improvements planned.
And, as for the fare, yes it was raised. A shame, really, since this is an example of how the system was not "public" enough. If there is to be a fare, the fare should be just a token (no pun intended) fee that is not expected to be a serious revenue stream. Ideally, there should be no fare at all, with the entire system supported by taxes. There could have been any number of ways to generate enough tax revenue to make this happen, from heavy, punitive taxes on destructive activity like driving, to non-punitive, nearly invisible taxes on every single stock transaction, to many others.
This is also why it is dishonest to claim that "the City didn't have the money" to have a municipal system from the start. It "didn't have" the money only because it and the State didn't take the appropriate steps to acquire the money!
ME: Here one might mention the fact that our City-owned subway experienced periods of decline due to deferred maintenence. However, it is important to remember that this was due not to a lack of available funding mechanisms (and therefore not indicative of any kind of fundamental flaw in the concept of municipal ownership); but, rather to a lack of political will and leadership.)
PAUL: Short translation: when they could no longer bully a private company to do something, they simply dropped the ball.
Wrong. If you want a "translation", then here it is: No politician in office is going to support subsidizing the NYC subway with existing and new taxes; not here in the City, and certainly not among the racists, City-haters, and brainwashed bourgeoisie Upstate.
The only problem with the concept behind the IND was that it wasn't taken far enough.
Ferdinand Cesarano
YES
OPM
huh?
"Other People's Money."
How the state builds its grand projects.
Usually a term in finance.
Other people's money?
You got it.
How the state builds its grand projects.
Wrong. If you want a "translation", then here it is: No politician in office is going to support subsidizing the NYC subway with existing and new taxes; not here in the City, and certainly not among the racists, City-haters, and brainwashed bourgeoisie Upstate.
What an absolutely ridiculous statement. Everybody upstate has to be a racist?
And a burgher?
I hope you realize that most of upstate is quite poor, and is far from being anywhere near bourgeois.
The last thirty or more years of fiscal management in New York City prove quite well how irresponsible it is with money? Who in their right mind would give money to somebody knowing they would spend it at the casino? This is similar.
When you make statements about "the racists, City-haters, and brainwashed bourgeoisie Upstate," it makes the rest of your argument look just as wrong and your ideas poorly thought out.
I hope that you socialists continue making those kinds of statements, we're less likely to adopt your unworkable principles.
We went into this on another thread a couple of weeks ago, but it bears repeating: The IND Sixth Ave. subway was the most financially ill-conceived route in the City of New York for the purposes of increasing subway access, with the Fulton Street branch of the IND right behind it.
Digging a subway line along an Ave. that already had a subway on it (PATH) for a 1 1/4 mile stretch and an elevated line above it was a waste of city and federal money in the late 1930s that could have best been spent on a new route on the East Side that didn't have all those obstructions (let alone the LIRR/BMT crossing at Herald Square). But Hylan and his planners' main goal was to eliminate the IRT and especially the BMT, and an IND Second Ave. subway built in the late 1930s would have done nothing to hurt the passenger totals for the BMT Broadway line or the IRT Seventh Ave. line.
It would have knocked out the east side els, but the IRT would have held its own in terms of passenger usage on the Lexington Ave. line. And the IND Fulton St. line should have been built about a mile or so south, along Church Ave. and Linden Blvd., instead of right underneath the BMT Fulton St. el, which already had been modified to handle the wider 10-foot BMT-style subway cars. The IND would have served an area that doesn't have cross-Brooklyn subway access, and the BMT could have hooked the Fulton el (as planned) into the DeKalb station area so it would have access to the Broadway subway in Manhattan, which would have increased mass transit access in the borough. But that wasn't what Hylan's plan was all about, he was thinking more in monopolisitc terms (making him the Bill Gates of the mass transit world, I guess).
In short, it would have made perfect sense to build where nothing had been built or where there were aging unreconstructed els but no subway nearby. But logic was not the guiding force behind the constuction of many sections of the IND, revenge was. And if a private company had tried to go to a bank to get financing for lines already in existing mass transit territory, they would have been shown the door five seconds later.
"...Hylan and his planners' main goal was to eliminate the IRT and especially the BMT..."
Although (as others have pointed out) it would be wrong to assume that civic-minded motives were the main impetus for the building of the municipal subway, it is also wrong to ignore the fact that its effect of driving out the private companies was in the public interest.
Digging a subway line along an Ave. that already had a subway on it (PATH) for a 1 1/4 mile stretch and an elevated line above it was a waste of city and federal money in the late 1930s that could have best been spent on a new route on the East Side that didn't have all those obstructions (let alone the LIRR/BMT crossing at Herald Square).
For the purposes of this discussion, it is misleading to call the PATH a "subway". Yes, the PATH is under Sixth Ave., and you can use it for local service on Sixth and to the West Village. But, try to take it to the Bronx or Brooklyn. So, come on. The presence of the PATH line has nothing to do with the question of whether the IND Sixth Ave. line makes sense.
As to the elevated, two things:
1) no matter whether you put an IND line on Second or Sixth, you would be putting it on an avenue with an elevated
2) replacing elevateds with subways on Manhattan avenues was probably a good thing
Additionally, even if one could show that Second Ave. would have been a more logical location than Sixth, at the time, it wasn't an "either/or" proposition; both Sixth Ave. and Second Ave. lines were intended to be built.
In short, it would have made perfect sense to build where nothing had been built or where there were aging unreconstructed els but no subway nearby.
They did exactly that along Queens Blvd., where the IND line established Queens Blvd. as the backbone of Queens. (Also, I believe that the IND line put substantial pressure on the Main Line of then-private LIRR, and may have contributed to the LIRR eventually becoming publicly-owned.)
But logic was not the guiding force behind the constuction of many sections of the IND, revenge was....[Hylan] was thinking more in monopolisitc terms (making him the Bill Gates of the mass transit world, I guess).
This tactic of reducing the IND issue to an analysis of one man's pecadillos cheapens the whole discussion. Usually it is expressed in more Napoleonic terms, with Hylan portrayed as an emperor ruling his glorious kingdom of trains. Now we get the Gates comparison. Right, like Hylan himself was going to become the world's richest man while hindering innovation worldwide. Nonsense.
This bit of mythmaking ignores the fact that the IND is the most comfortable and most reliable branch of the system. It does what is was intended to do superbly, 7 decades after it was built. (Could it have been better? Definitely, as anyone who grew up as I did beyond the eastern reaches of the system can attest.)
As I mentioned in another post, the IND is the quintessential example (in this country, at least) of public works for the public good, of public works done right.
Ferdinand Cesarano
They did exactly that along Queens Blvd., where the IND line established Queens Blvd. as the backbone of Queens. (Also, I believe that the IND line put substantial pressure on the Main Line of then-private LIRR, and may have contributed to the LIRR eventually becoming publicly-owned.)
I must say that I have never heard that theory before, not anywhere.
I was once at a lecture given by Queens historian Vincent Seyfried where he showed a newspaper ad taken out by the LIRR a few years after the IND Queens Blvd. line opened. In the ad, the LIRR tried to explain why its fares were so high as compared to the new municipal subway, and it complained about losing riders.
Whether this actually directly contributed to the end of the LIRR as a private entity, I am not sure (hence the "may have" in my post). But I am willing to assume it played some part.
Ferdinand Cesarano
The LIRR was also considered "evil traction interests" but the Queens part of its lines was a very small portion of its service area. I'm sure the fares were missed on the local lines but overall, LIRR didn't depend on local service in Queens any more than the New Haven or New York Central made all that much money on local service to the 59th St, seventy-something street or southern Bronx local stations that have long since been boarded up. LIRR was largely long-haul. It is interesting though that the Queens ridership mattered to them. Revenues at the time must have been thin for them to care at all.
If it was done right, the A train would be running east-west n Brooklyn via Church Ave. or Linden Blvd., not Fulton St., and there would have been no Sixth Ave. subway in Manhattan under Phase I of the IND, there would have been a Second Ave. line instead.
Look, you can say PATH is not a subway until you turn blue the face, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck; PATH looks and acts like a subway between Greenwich Village and Herald Square along Sixth Ave., so therefore it's a subway, and because of that there were two subway tracks that the IND had to work around that they wouldn't have had to deal with on Second Ave. Add to that the Herald Square complex construction, which was a mess, with the PATH and BMT trains above and the LIRR/PRR tracks below. Running tracks over the LIRR at Second Ave. and 34th St. would have been a walk in the park by comparison.
The Sixth Ave. line was hideously expensive for the times -- given the amount of money spent on just the section between West Fourth and 53rd St., the IND could have build a subway line from Houston St. to 125th along Second Ave., which would have been a far more practical use of city and federal funds. But a Second Ave. subway would have put little or no dent in the BMT's Manhattan operations, though it would have definitely knocked out the IRT's east side els and taken some business from its subway (and the IRT would have been perfectly happy by 1932 to rid itself of the money-losing els in Manhattan, which it had no plans toi upgrade to Dual Contract standards).
As far as the IND's construction and design, I have no quarrels with that -- being built 20 to 30 years after the IRT and IND, it should have been the best designed of the three systems, because they had a chance to study and learn from the earlier mistakes. The 600-foot stations, the express track shortcuts (though only one of the two built is being used) and flying junctions with the less severe curves were an improvement.
However, there's also no question that at least on construction of the mezzanines, the IND did overbuild, which as Paul pointed out you can do when you're working with other people's money. Given the level of crime in the 1930s I'm sure the planners didn't see the future effects of their designs, but by the 1960s those upper levels (especially the ones that were still bulb illuminated) were among the scariest places on the subway and helped crystalize the negative image of the NYC subway in the minds of many people.
The Gates comparison is apt because he seeks a monoply in his industry and was willing to use if not illegal, than unethical tactics to achive it (the phony letters to the Utah AG this week being the latest example); Hylan wanted a city monopoly in the subway industry in New York, and he also thought the ends justified the means.
You seem to have the idea that all private buisnessmen wear black capes, top hats, have handlebar mustaches and tie unwilling damsels to the railroad tracks, while the leaders of the public sector are all a bunch of Dudley Do-Rights. My feeling is, the bigger government gets, the more impersonal is it and the less it has the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time, and the ever-growing buracracies of the Board of Transportation, the New York City Transit Authority and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority over the 61 years since unification have given little cause to prove otherwise.
There is certainly averiace, cheating, pettiness and venality in the private sector, and the people who built and ran in the IRT and the BMT were in no way saints, but Hylan and the other city planners who came up with the idea for the IND and the desire to ruin the private transit lines weren't virgins, either.
“The 600-foot stations, the express track shortcuts (though only one of the two built is being used) and flying junctions with the less severe curves were an improvement.”
Could you please elaborate?
Thanks,
John
The 600-foot stations
Self-explanatory. The IND also had 660 foot stations. The BMT had 536 foot stations and the IRT 500. The original IRT was even shorter, around 250.
the express track shortcuts (though only one of the two built is being used)
The Express tracks between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Avenue on the QB Line, and between 7th and Church Avenues on the South Brooklyn use more direct paths than the locals and are thus in two separate ROWs.
and flying junctions with the less severe curves were an improvement.
Flying junctions are where the tracks "fly" over each other instead of intersecting. Because the city had the power of eminent domain, the fact that they had to stray from the street and cut under blocks for a smoother curve was not a problem.
Explain then, if you will, why the IND appears to have been designed deliberately to make it difficult to transfer to the other divisions.
Sure, it would have involved the payment of an additional fare -- but the BMT and IRT still shared major junctions at, e.g., Times Square, Union Square, and Atlantic Avenue. Nearly wherever possible, it seems like the IND made sure that, where transfers might be possible, either the IND line or the intersecting line (or both) would have only a local stop. The major IND junctions themselves are mostly a good distance from any competing line.
The end result? In 2001, transfers to and from the IND are still a pain.
Two points:
First, the Depression didn't kill the IND Second System. World War II did. By the time the war was over, inflation and the post-war boom placed the cost of the Second System out of range of any possible public or private financing.
Second, what is properly "public" or "private"? During the Roman Empire, the emperors found an easy way to raise money for bread and circuses -- they sold off the public facilities to the highest bidders. This provided ready cash, and took away the need to pay for them. Eventually, even the army was privatized.
Of course, when the barbarians came, the mercenary soldiers took one look at the Goths, Vandals, and Huns and decided that pay wasn't everything.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
>>> Well, don't make "driv[ing] all private enterprise out of the transit market" sound like such a bad thing. <<<
When it is done as it was in New York it is a very bad thing. Driving the privates into bankruptcy through unfair (subsidized) competition and price controls caused the investors in the IRT and BMT to lose their investment. If the city wanted to run the whole works the proper way would have been through eminent domain, and paying for the property confiscated.
Tom
When it is done as it was in New York it is a very bad thing. Driving the privates into bankruptcy through unfair (subsidized) competition and price controls caused the investors in the IRT and BMT to lose their investment. If the city wanted to run the whole works the proper way would have been through eminent domain, and paying for the property confiscated.
You definitely have a good point there.
Of course, still better would have been to do the whole thing as a public endeavor in the first place, funded by some new car-related, business-related, and tourism-related taxes, by tolls, by bonds, etc.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Boy, this guy really blew it on this one.
I thought the article was amazingly well balanced. He complimented the IND for its excellences and didn't flinch at pointing out its defects.
Kennedy could have called the IND what it really is -- public works done right.
You don't think the IRT or BRT could have done it right, with open access to the public purse and no need to put up their own capital?
I live in a seven-room Cape Cod. It was and is the best house I could afford. My home would be much better built of all the finest materials, with at least 15 rooms and 3 stories, on at least an acre, with a climate controlled clean room for my new mainframe and workstations, professional craft equipment for my artist wife, and a modern kitchen with Viking stove. Don't forget the indoor pool, professional landscaping and sprinkler system and security.
Now why don't I have these?
Maybe it's because I don't have the power of eminent to domain to tear down a few of the neighbors houses, I can't bend the zoning laws to suit myself, and I don't have the money and can't borrow it.
But suppose I somehow could borrow the money and then couldn't pay it back--an amazingly likely prospect?
I would be foreclosed and probably go bankrupt. Just like a private business. I couln't tax my neighbors, refuse to pay my bills, and whine to the federal and state governments to bail me out.
[...]the IND was built as a part of the public infrastructure. The goal was service first, profit second (if ever).
In one of the original arguments by the City for municipal operation, Harry A. Gordon, speaking for the City, pointed out that the operation of the private companies was a financial boon to the City, paying $10,000,000 p.a. in taxes and assessments (that 1924 dollars, folks) and that since the subway's inception, at least $2 billion of the increase in assessed valuation was attributable to the IRT and BMT subways, resulting in another $50 million a year in city revenue.
What did Mr. Gordon make of all this?
"The point is that the City can have these benefits [and] have profits from the municipal operation of its subways."
(Emphasis added)
Now, adherents to the orthodox religion of capitalism will tell you that this is a flaw. In reality, however, a public transit system -- like a public health system, a public education system, etc. -- is part of the infrastructure of a decent society.
Services of this nature ought to be regarded as essential, and should be funded to the extent neccesary for them to work properly. If these essential services wind up with a surplus, great; pour it back into the budget. If not, then so be it. It is absurd to require that public service entities show a monetary profit. The only "profit" which they show is the benefit to society that the services bring. (Same thing goes for the Postal Service, and Amtrak for that matter.)
Kennedy, in his effort to be a snarky smartass, totally failed to convey the meaning and importance of the IND. And he even failed at being a snarky smartass, clumsily employing both the "rich guy" analogy and the "Red Mike" nickname (which I as an actual red find laughable).
This guy utterly missed the train.
This polemic is a lengthy non-sequiter. You are arguing the principle that a subway system should be operated as a public service, which was not the subject of Kennedy's article.
ME: Kennedy could have called the IND what it really is -- public works done right.
PAUL: You don't think the IRT or BRT could have done it right, with open access to the public purse and no need to put up their own capital?
Of course I do -- that's the way to do it right. Of course, in that case it wouldn't have been the IRT or the BRT. It would have been the IND.
I live in a seven-room Cape Cod. It was and is the best house I could afford. My home would be much better built of all the finest materials, with at least 15 rooms and 3 stories, on at least an acre, with a climate controlled clean room for my new mainframe and workstations, professional craft equipment for my artist wife, and a modern kitchen with Viking stove. Don't forget the indoor pool, professional landscaping and sprinkler system and security. Now why don't I have these? Maybe it's because I don't have the power of eminent to domain to tear down a few of the neighbors houses, I can't bend the zoning laws to suit myself, and I don't have the money and can't borrow it.
Which is all to the good, since you are one person with your own selfish interests in mind. You should not have those powers. On the other hand, a city of several million people -- a city which is the center of countless industries and of the world of culture high, low, and middle, and which is the economic engine of the region -- ought to have those powers, and ought to use them extensively.
ME: ...Services of this nature ought to be regarded as essential, and should be funded to the extent neccesary for them to work properly...
PAUL: This polemic is a lengthy non-sequiter. You are arguing the principle that a subway system should be operated as a public service, which was not the subject of Kennedy's article.
Yeah, I noticed that this principle was not the subject of Kennedy's article. (I noticed it at about the point of the grossly inappropriate "rich guy" analogy.) That was part of my problem with the piece. It is impossible to adequately discuss the nature of the IND without addressing this principle.
Futhermore, my comment (or polemic, if you prefer) is hardly a non sequitur; it is a corrective, a reminder that the IND is, historically speaking, a success story. Any article about the IND's history and its fans ought to acknowlege this fact.
There is no doubt that the IND is a technological marvel. But, considering that it was built in captialist America, it is a sociological marvel of an even higher order.
Ferdinand Cesarano
So as the facts become inconvenient, we fall back on ideology.
In short, I cannot have such vast powers, because I am an individual and cannot be trusted because it is expected I will use them in my selfish interest.
The state, on the other hand, should have powers because it can be trusted, simply because it is presumed to be working in the public interest. This is accepted despite the fact that this state power is usually directed by a particular faction or individual.
Even if that power is used unwisely or dictatorially, and even if the results turn out badly, the state should be immune from criticism because it represents the people.
This is the most essential failure of ideologies from Marxism to Fascism.
People who I've known who believe in the Marxist ideal always think they will be lead by Snowball, but historically they end up with Napoleon.
Back in the days of the former Soviet Union, a student was asked to describe the difference between capitalism and communism.
The response -- "Under capitalism, man oppresses man. Under communism, the reverse is true."
Capitalist, socialist, fascist, communist, guess who always gets the short end!
I don't know if anyone has noticed it but I was reading the NYC Guide and I looked @ the Subway Map and noticed that there is no 6th Avenue Shuttle, after further observations on the map, I found out that it was an early version of the map we shall see in November. I find this confusing for tourists because if they get this issue for the NYC Guide, they will be expecting a F on certain points on the 63rd Street Line but it doesn't take place until November which the map denotes. Well, I was just checking if anyone else has seen this map version.
-Vekter
Interesting.
Yummmmmmmmmm... :-)))
Mapppppppppppppppppppppps....
Tell me which Hotel or Tourist depot you found it in?
The Manhattan Mall is where I was told it was found. In the guide its in the Transportation Section and it only shows Manhattan like most tourist maps do.
-Vekter
Just for your information. My wife and I were up to New York around the end of June for my birthday and that subway map is in the summer/fall 2001 edition of the NYC Official guide. We picked one up at the Viitors Bureau on 7th Ave.
The Manhattan Mall usually has the booklets that are at least 1 edition behind. The latest one has a picturte of the Statue of Liberty on it. That one actully has a map dated November 2001 in it.
Try NYC & Co (NY COnvention & VIsitors Bureau)at 810 7th Av @ 53rd St.
I saw someone on an F train in Brooklyn looking at a map which had only Manhattan and the surrounding area (downtown Brooklyn, Long Island City, the SW portion of the Bronx). Since the train was at the time off the map and headed for Coney Island, the person with the map had no idea where he was.
A temporary restraining order is in place forbidding NYCT from closing any booth. We expect that they will hold a single public hearing and then close the booths, but this does give us time.
The issue as decided by the NY State Supreme Court was based on a state law forbidding closure of any rapid transit station, line or entrance without a public hearing. The judge ruled that a booth qualifies as an entrance. I realize this is temporary, but there is hope-- Look at the Franklin Shuttle-- before it was rebuilt, the NYCT planned on permanent closure of the entire line but public protest saved the line.
Another example is Grand Street--TA did not want a DeKalb to Grand Shutle Bus and they did not want extended M service Here again, they lost both.
Our petition drive continues.
I realize some of you favor booth closing, and that is your privilege, but allow me my privilege to favor retention.
My personal vision for the future of station agents (S/As) is to have no sales from the booth but only check cards and trade-ins of expired, damaged cards. Since we would have no money in that scenario, as part of our job we would have to make a station inspection during our tour (except for stations listed as "Gain-Sharing".[A gain sharing station means they get no lunch for safety reasons and the S/A working that booth gets paid for their lunch--ie 8.5 hours of pay for 8 hours work.] We would also leave the booth to do fingertip maintenance (clean the wheels, MVMs, etc.).
Of course, under my scenario we would still issue block tickets where needed along with maps.
If that's what everyone's vision of the future station agent, that's good. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if that's being pushed.
This is ridiculous. A booth is not an entrance. A booth is simply one source (of many) of fare media. There already exist many boothless entrances. And, according to the TA's plan, many of the part-time booths scheduled to be closed would allow part-time entrances to become full-time entrances. Many off-peak travelers would have more entrances available if the part-time booths are closed.
IINM, most SubTalkers (or at least the ones who commented on the issue) found the entire Grand Street complaint outlandish. From the start, I maintained that extended hours on the M would be sufficient. The shuttle buses are 100% a waste of our money; they don't provide anything that the existing subway lines don't. And the Bowery is still dead. My point is that this probably isn't a great comparison for you to make here if you want to draw people to your side.
Of course, I respect your opinion on the matter, although there's no question that you have a conflict of interest.
Here's my opinion: Running an unnecessary shuttle bus costs just as much as running a necessary one. Keeping an unnecessary booth open costs just as much as keeping a necessary one open. And any money spent on a booth or a shuttle bus could instead be spent on improved train service, or on more timely repairs to escalators and air conditioners, or on just a slight delay in the next fare increase. Frivolous complaints of the Grand Street nature serve only to drain the system of resources that could be used towards real improvements.
Here is my vision:
All stations would be equipped with security cameras -- by the turnstiles, on the mezzanines and staircases, on the platforms. They would be watched in real-time by a group of remote security guards who could summon the police at the press of a button. (That's a big security boost over what currently exists; in many stations, nobody's watching over the platform, and that's where most of us wait for trains.)
Customer service phones would be scattered around the station, both inside and outside fare control. Each phone would be in view of a security camera and would have a MetroCard dip slot. A prominent button on the phone would route the call to 911 (or an in-house TA equivalent); otherwise, a remote customer service agent would answer. The customer service agent would be able to see the passenger, check and manipulate the passenger's MetroCard, and unlock a nearby turnstile or gate. (If a passenger needs to use a restroom outside the station, for instance, the agent could encode the card to allow free reentry to the same station within 20 minutes -- or, if abuse is a problem, the agent could store an image of the passenger's face and have the card trigger an automatic customer service call so an agent could verify that the faces match before unlocking the turnstile.)
All entrances from the street will be open at all times. Over time, the TA will install new entrances at the extreme ends of each station to maximize coverage.
Individual block tickets would be encoded on existing MetroCards or distributed by paper MetroCard. Mass block tickets (e.g., a 1 train ran express from 96th to 137th and a few hundred or thousand passengers need access to the southbound platform) would be eliminated -- it's cheaper and faster to simply unlock all turnstiles at the station in question, even if a few people get in for free. (Seriously, when 500 people crowd up to your booth with block ticket, there's no way you're going to notice a few people who don't have block tickets. And if you're distributing block tickets, you undoubtedly end up giving a few to people who happened to come in off the street.)
MVM's do break on occasion. If all MVM's at an entrance are out of service, the turnstiles would automatically allow free admission until at least one is repaired, just like buses with malfunctioning turnstiles allow passengers to board for free.
A number of customer service monitors would be at the booth and on the platforms. Some would display service changes in effect on the line. Others would be interactive: passengers could ask for other information, like service changes on other routes, a system map (either the regular one or a temporary one reflecting current GO's), strip maps for each line, schedules (again, standard or GO), recommended directions between two stations, etc.
Print maps and schedules would be available as well. If hoarding is a problem, they could be distributed by machines that will only spit out one every 30 seconds.
There would be roaming on-site customer service agents. In some cases, a single station would have multiple agents. In other cases (like the Dyre Avenue branch), an entire section of a line might get by with only one or two, riding from stop to stop (but still accessible by phone at all times). These could be adjusted over time as demand changes.
There. How does that sound? What am I forgetting?
>> MVM's do break on occasion. If all MVM's at an entrance are out of service, the turnstiles would automatically allow free admission until at least one is repaired, just like buses with malfunctioning turnstiles allow passengers to board for free.
...
...
...
There. How does that sound? What am I forgetting? <<
You're forgetting that the MTA cares more about money than customer convenience. If you think they're going to readily give people free entrance you're overestimating their generosity.
The Police have freed out thousand of man hours by what my friend calls DA in a box. They have t-1 lines from stations to the DA and conduct the interviews there, that way cops save travel time and the perps go as transportation is available.
First of all there will be atations agents at every station but even if the TWU loses every battle there will be someone available via camera, phone, internet, PA whatever.
As for the noble SA don't you remember those panic buttons on the subway where you could talk to an agent and they could call a cop for you? The SA's hated it and so did the public.
>>> As for the noble SA don't you remember those panic buttons on the subway where you could talk to an agent and they could call a cop for you? The SA's hated it and so did the public. <<<
As one who was not in New York when this system was in effect, please elaborate. When was this? What technology was used? Why was the system hated by all?
Tom
Today, some stations feature talk-back boxes at strategic locations which allow a customer to talk to the S/A in the booth.
I like these boxes and have used one myself to alert the booth to an intoxicated customer harassing other customers. Luckily I got an S/A who did not ignore the system and did call the police who dumped the booze, wrote a summons and removed the customer to the pleasure (and applause)of the other customers.
I say luckily since many S/A, not myself, ignore the system since we get tons of people "I wanted to see what it did" or "I wanted to see if someone would answer the call".
Please..the call back boxes are to be used for genuine assistance requests only (which include train service info as well as police, fire, ems help). Do not use these boxes to see if we are there or to see if the box works.
Speaking of what other agencies do, the Chief of all papers has an article about the closure of all the booths there. No problem, say most people, except when stations are completely unmanned.
Then, there's the TAs motivation to fix the broken things quickly.
Puts the onus on them to keep their promises.
Peace,
ANDEE
Generosity? Nope. Just frugality.
On the very rare occasion that every MVM at a station is out of order, the TA would have to waive the fare at that single station. Presumably, within a few hours, one of the machines would be back in service.
The alternative is for the TA to pay at least one S/A per station at all times to sell cards. Somehow I think it's cheaper to let a few people in for free once in a while. (And what happens when the booth machine goes down, too? Oops, same problem!)
When our TBT (Token Booth Terminal) goes down we then sell tokens only until a maintainer comes and makes the neede repair.
AS far as MVMs being fixed promptly when all MVMs are out, I have seen otherwise. Some stations have been down for more than 1-2 weeks! (I work Night Lunch RDO meaning I have a different schedule each day. ie- every Saturday I work one schedule, every Sunday another schedule and so on.)I user either WTC or Penn depending on the day of the week and regularly see IRT Penn and IND Penn. I have seen all MVMs down at Penn and the next am and next PM still down.
I wonder what share of Metrocards are being purchased with debit or credit cards, what share are monthly vs. weekly, etc.
Since every Metrocard is individually identified, in theory the TA could move to an EZ Pass type system, with a single card "reloaded" by credit card until it wears out. That being the case, a large share of TA riders wouldn't even need the machines, thus reducing wear and tear on them. Value cards could be reloaded automatically when they fall below a given limit; unlimited ride cards could be reset each month.
My ID card is also a Metrocard, and is expected to last for years. When NYC workers got Transit Chek, it was a special card designed to last a year. If the TWU wins, those workers sitting in the booth rather than supervising the station could be VERY bored.
I even purchase my Metrocards with my credit card. Since I get one
United Airline mile for every dollar spent, that means I get four
frequent flyer miles per FunPass! [Don't laugh... I went first class
to Sydney and Bangkok for free on these accumulated miles... not all FunPasses of course!]
Last figure I had was for February 2001: 22% of transactions through MVMs were by credit/debit cards, accounting for 42% of the dollar value of MVM transactions. Among the unlimited-ride passes, in February the 1-day pass accounted for 3.5% of trips, the 7-day pass 27.2%, and the 30-day pass 11.3%.
David
(Last figure I had was for February 2001: 22% of transactions through MVMs were by credit/debit cards, accounting for 42% of the dollar value of MVM transactions. Among the unlimited-ride passes, in February the 1-day pass accounted for 3.5% of trips, the 7-day pass 27.2%, and the 30-day pass 11.3%.)
To be honest, I'm surprised that two of the figures are that low -- credit/debit cards accounting for just 42 percent of the dollar value, and 30 day passes accounting for just eleven percent of the rides. Might you mean that the 30 day passes accounted for 11.3 percent of the TRANSACTIONS, not the trips?
If the figures are so, there must be a large amount of subway riders without bank accounts, who are paid weekly in cash (immigrants, perhaps?). Crime may be down, but I still have the habit of not carrying much cash. Being able to purchase by credit care was a big advance for me. I couldn't imagine trying to stuff cash in those machines. And you'd think that the $5 savings over a month -- not to mention the ability to avoid waiting on line -- would induce more people to buy the monthly rather than weekly pass.
On thing is for sure -- the MTA would save a lot of money if it was able to process fewer transactions, or handle less cash.
To be honest, I'm surprised that two of the figures are that low -- credit/debit cards accounting for just 42 percent of the dollar
value, and 30 day passes accounting for just eleven percent of the rides. Might you mean that the 30 day passes accounted for 11.3 percent of the TRANSACTIONS, not the trips?
If the figures are so, there must be a large amount of subway riders without bank accounts, who are paid weekly in cash (immigrants, perhaps?).
That's probably the case. One other factor, which may account for the relatively low use of credit and debit cards, is that some people might not entirely trust a MVM to handle a card transaction without totally messing it up. I myself have had no problems at all using my debit card, but some people are more cautious.
Keep in mind that the Fun Pass, 7-day pass, and 30-day pass are useful for different people.
The 30-day pass is useful mainly for people who commute every weekday and make occasional evening or weekend trips.
The 7-day pass is useful for people who don't travel enough generally to make the 30-day pass worthwhile but are traveling more than usual during one week. It's also useful for tourists.
The Fun Pass is useful for anyone who doesn't usually travel enough to make use of any form of unlimited card but occasionally enters the system more than twice in a day.
Certainly, buying lots of 7-day passes or Fun Passes and using them back-to-back isn't very wise, but I don't know why you assume anyone's doing that. Personally, I usually pay per ride. On occasion I'll whip out a Fun Pass. I once bought a 7-day pass. Given my current travel patterns, there's just no way a 30-day pass would be worth it. (Lately I've been adding $15 to my card just about once a month.)
I do agree with you on cash vs. credit cards. Cash is messy and I'd rather carry around and use as little of it as I can get away with. Not only are credit cards more convenient, mine gives me a nice 1% rebate. My cost per ride, assuming I purchase pay-per-ride cards worth at least $15, is $1.35.
When our TBT (Token Booth Terminal) goes down we then sell tokens only until a maintainer comes and makes the neede repair.
So anyone who needs to transfer to a bus and was willing to buy in bulk is stuck paying $3.00 rather than $1.37 per ride. Anyone planning to buy an unlimited pass has to pay for rides that should have been included for free. That's nice.
AS far as MVMs being fixed promptly when all MVMs are out, I have seen otherwise. Some stations have been down for more than 1-2 weeks!
If the TA stopped paying someone to sit in each station at all times of day or night, a bit of money would be available to hire a larger MVM maintenance staff.
Maintainers- be it turnstile or MVM (they are all one job title- REM or Revenue Equipment Maintainer) make more then we do! You are saying they'd save money by replacing us with someone who makes more money than we do!
I once spoke to an REM who advised me, off the record, that the MVMs asre unreliable and he did not cvare since it was job security for himself.
I do regret you have had bad experiences with S/As in the past. I do state once again, that I support your right to disagree.
Maintainers- be it turnstile or MVM (they are all one job title- REM or Revenue Equipment Maintainer) make more then we do! You are saying they'd save money by replacing us with someone who makes more money than we do!
How many S/A's are there?
How many REM's are there?
You do the math. Which costs more money, paying for about 600 S/A's (the bare minimum if everyone entering the system is able to do so via an open token booth) or paying for, say, 25 REM's?
I once spoke to an REM who advised me, off the record, that the MVMs asre unreliable and he did not cvare since it was job security for himself.
So fix them and make them reliable. Even replacing them with brand new machines, which I doubt is necessary, is cheaper than keeping S/A's.
As we've seen time and again over the past century, automation, if executed properly, saves money for all and is better for nearly everyone -- one of the prominent exceptions in all cases being those individuals who are being replaced by automation. Unfortunately, the only way for an agency to save money (and use that money elsewhere, like improving service or keeping the fare where it is) is by spending less money. I wish there were some way that the TA could continue pay S/A's while also reaping the benefits of automation, but, of course, that's not possible. My only concern is that the TA's automation will not be executed properly. (Look at the R-142's, which are apparently so difficult to reprogram that they've been making incorrect announcements since the service changes last month. That's a poor design decision but we're stuck with it as long as the cars remain in service.)
Look at the R-142's, which are apparently so difficult to reprogram that they've been making incorrect announcements since the service changes last month. That's a poor design decision but we're stuck with it as long as the cars remain in service.
Untrue, that's the charm of SOFTware. The on-board computer can always be reprogrammed. I highly doubt they'll still be using Windows NT (or whatever they use) in 2030.
Your idea (how long did it take you to write all that???) sounds completely sensible to me. It acknowledges that things have changed a wee bit since horse-and-buggy days. Older people may remember when stores were not self-service; you asked the friendly clerk for what you wanted, and he fetched it for you from the shelves. I myself can just barely remember some elevators that actually had operators. But times have changed, and now things run much more efficiently - you idea, of course, posits a most efficient scenario for operating subway stations.
And it also has zero chance of happening. Organized labor is just too strong in New York. Now, unionized industries mostly packed up and went elsewhere. As the subway can't do that, it'll remain a paragon of inefficiency. And it'll still take months to fix broken escalators.
The army of people at gas stations? On to pump one for the hood and a senior mechanic would say hello to see if all was well.
I myself can just barely remember some elevators that actually had operators.
I was just in one last week. At the 168th Street station. Oops.
I myself can just barely remember some elevators that actually had operators.
I was just in one last week. At the 168th Street station. Oops.
An experience which speaks volumes about the TA's commitment to efficiency!
you forgot the (long post) addition.
My personal vision for the future of station agents (S/As) is to have no sales from the booth but only check cards and trade-ins of expired, damaged cards. Since we would have no money in that scenario, as part of our job we would have to make a station inspection during our tour (except for stations listed as "Gain-Sharing".[A gain sharing station means they get no lunch for safety reasons and the S/A working that booth gets paid for their lunch--ie 8.5 hours of pay for 8 hours work.] We would also leave the booth to do fingertip maintenance (clean the wheels, MVMs, etc.).
The fact that the Transit Authority considers some station so dangerous that the clerks can't get lunch breaks, yet keeps them open, shows that passenger safety is very low on the list of priorities. Any stations that are so dangerous should be shut immediately. If neighborhood residents don't like that, let them organize citizens' patrols.
>>Any stations
that are so dangerous should be shut immediately. If
neighborhood residents don't like that, let them
organize citizens' patrols.
<<
WRONG!!! you don't pumish All residens of a neighborhood because the police are too lazy or corrupt to roust the thugs. And when you say citizens' patrols, if the area is as distressed as described they would need to be vigilantes, no?
"The fact that the Transit Authority considers some station so dangerous that the clerks can't get lunch breaks, yet keeps them open, shows that passenger safety is very low on the list of priorities. Any stations that are so dangerous should be shut immediately. If neighborhood residents don't like that, let them organize citizens' patrols."
Unsafe stations are almost universally so because they are located in unsafe neighborhoods and not because of any attribute of the station itself. Shut down such stations, and you don't have a safe station, just a neighborhood that's still unsafe AND has no subway service. In fact, because it's now harder to reach major job locations elsewhere in the city, the neighborhood loses any working households it may have and the neighborhood gets even worse. Oops!
The fact that the Transit Authority considers some station so dangerous that the clerks can't get lunch breaks, yet keeps them open, shows that passenger safety is very low on the list of priorities. Any stations that are so dangerous should be shut immediately. If neighborhood residents don't like that, let them organize citizens' patrols.
Unsafe stations are almost universally so because they are located in unsafe neighborhoods and not because of any attribute of the station itself. Shut down such stations, and you don't have a safe station, just a neighborhood that's still unsafe AND has no subway service. In fact, because it's now harder to reach major job locations elsewhere in the city, the neighborhood loses any working households it may have and the neighborhood gets even worse. Oops!
As I said, let the neighborhood residents form a citizen's watch type of organization. Contrary to what I said earlier, I suppose the stations shouldn't be closed immediately; fair warning should be given, so the residents have time to organize and to bring a lot of pressure to bear on the police and local politicians. Just the threat of station closings should be enough to spur plenty of activity.
By the way, there are some NYC stations that are less safe on account of their physical designs. A prime example - I don't know if it's on the no-lunch list - is 4th Avenue on the F/9th Street on the R and M. It has too many hiding places and as a result is known for crime, despite not being in a particularly bad area. Some of the IND stations with their large dark mezzanines also qualified, although various steps have been taken to make them safer.
Be wary of some victories. The TWU won a decision related to restricted duty C/Rs picking jobs and when the smoke cleared, they had lost over 100 jobs. You can win the battle and still lose the war.
.... How can we join the petition drive??
....How can we join the petition drive against??
This reminds me of when the R-46 GOH program was going on. The project engineer was a person of 'Persian Gulf herritage'. In his office, over his desk was a poster that said, "Support our boys in dessert storm". The unspoken question was always, "Which side?"
"Support our boys in dessert storm"
Help raid the cookie jar?
-Robert King
There they go:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/21/nyregion/21CND-REEF.html
I'd give serious credit to anyone who could read the number off that redbird.
It's a shame to see them go.
9321 was the last one to be sunk.
See http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20010821/us/998428006de_subway_cars_reef_rob102.html
two swimming at the same time
The "front" NYT page - www.nytimes.com - now has an additional shot, with two in the water. That must be the one "lincoln" referred to.
yes it is(there is also a copy of it to the original article now)
Ugh... getting "seasick" :(
I know they're old and beat up and need to be replaced, but those pictures are kind of heart breaking.
Not at all–it’s a second life for us divers!
John
Blub. Skreek. Blub.
They died with their car numbers and MTA logo on. At least they were given that dignity.
Now it really is time to cue up "Goodbye, Redbirds".
REDBIRDS OVERBOARD!!!!!!!!
Sniff.Sniff... The time has finally come.
But I read in the article in the NYT that they were only dumping 20 Redbird cars per week for the next 20 weeks.
BUT that only totals up to 400 REDBIRD CARS!
What will happen to the remainder of the 600?
Those two pictures were heartbreaking.
Railfan Pete.
The other 600 will be welded together in pairs for additional "doublewide housing" for Rensselaer county. (just kidding)
After the 400 are gone, there will be another 1,000 to go, not 200 (600-400). I understand there's an option in the agreement with Delaware for more cars to go into the briny, and NYCT's looking into dumping more someplace else. Anything that doesn't get dumped into the water will undoubtedly get scrapped (less those lucky few that make it to museums).
David
Does anyone know what happened to the early 1990s bi level train that went to Port Jefferson?
If you are talking about the "test" train that first ran I think it's sitting around the Hillside facility, you can see it from any mainline train. It's got the old blue M logo on it I think, it looks like it has been "ransacked" for parts.
They were moved from Hillside Facility to Morris Park recently. Still for sale, still no takers.
Bill "Newkirk"
Your post leads me to 2 questions--
1 - Is it visible from a Flatbush bound train since I will be on one Sunday AM on the way to the D-Types to the Docks?
2 - Why aren't they using it in passenger service somewhere? IIRC the turbo train of the early 80's suffered a similar fate.
2- apparently they are not compatiable to the rest of the 'new' bilevel/DM/DE(Junk) fleet. Also, MTA management has long been regarded as quite possibly the stupidest in the RR business.
do you mean the amtrak turbos? they're being 'rebuilt', though they're going to super steel - the same people that turned out the lemon DE/DM units for lirr - so expect them to run for about a month when placed in service, if that much, before they break or catch fire.
The reason it is not being used nowadays is that it is not compatible, electrically, with the new LIRR locos or cars. It operated on a different voltage system...and a lot of the circuitry is different as well. Only the FL-9AC's could work with this train, or the #3100 power car (which was rebuilt after the train was taken out of service and operated for a short time with the last of LIRR's Pullman-Standard fleet.
Even if it were electrically compatible, it still would be a pain in the ass to integrate. They are the only cars in existence (that I know of) that are married pair trailers!
"1 - Is it visible from a Flatbush bound train since I will be on one Sunday AM on the way to the D-Types to the Docks?"
I didn't see them when traveling to Flatbush Ave last Saturday. Perhaps they are buried in the back of the yard somewhere.
Bill "Newkirk"
Today the queensbridge shuttle was running a train of 68s though most of the signs said it was a b train, The few that were almost correct said thatit was a gray S from 21st queens bridge, to Herald Square
Looks like someone was lazy and didn't change the signs as they were supposed to.
...or, didn't have the time if the consist was pressed into service quickly.
Peace,
ANDEE
We are develloping a proposal for the mexico city subway system and need information.
If anyone has any ideas on how we can find the following data, we would very much appreciate your help.
We are looking for info regarding possible interruption of the capacity to mobilize users due to the space ocupied in a subway car by a wheel chair. Given that the mexico city system transports aproximately 4 million people a day, and that it was not designed to carry wheelchairs each space taken up can affect its capacity.
We are also interested in knowing how other cities have dealt with this issue.
Thank you for any information,
Margarita
There are two schools of thought on the subject in NY City. First is accomodation. The NYCT experimented with one subway car where a seat was removed and the space was designated as a wheelchair spot. No other car has been modified as such. The LIRR on the other hand has played around with open spaces and folding seats for wheelchair accessibility.
Of course, the other is para transit. it seems to be better liked by the general public (who find wheelchairs bothersome) and the wheelchair bound who find the subways a hostile environment.
Although you will find some discussion of accessibility as it relates to transit here, most of that discussion centers on the need (or not) for it and the problems that the ADA can unintentionally cause. While I don't know for sure, I suspect that the various government agencies/transit providers, as well as some disability advocacy groups and railcar manufacturers, have done studies relating to this issue; I would suggest that you contact them directly. Here is a list of links to Transit Providers and Advocacy Groups elsewhere on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here was my itinerary for today:
Started my trip on the #2 line at 149th St/3rd Av. Took the #2, an R33 Redbird, #9093, to Penn Station. Then, I took the NJ Transit Northeast Corridor local to Trenton. Rode a GE Arrow series car, #1336, to Trenton. Along the way, around Edison, the train had a slight delay. The circuit breaker on the first car went out, the lights gave away, and the motorman applied the emergency brake. After a brief minute, we were on our way again.
Anyway, I got to Trenton, and then I waited from 9:45 until 10:30 when my SEPTA connection came. Rode a brown-interior Silverliner car (the grey-interior car was not open to passengers), #335 down to Amtrak 30th St Station. I went down to the lower level to find the NJ Transit Atlantic City train waiting on track 5 or 6.
After that, the very first thing I did was hit the Market-Frankford train. Rode car #1186, the first car, all thee way to 69th St Terminal. As I took a photo of the interior, the doors closed on me. Then the train went around a loop, with me stuck on the train. I thought that the terminal was like the Frankfort tTerminal, but instead it was one of those with a loop which fed into two tracks. Got a shot of the Kawasaki light rail cars (on Routes 101 and 102)while going through the loop.
Then, more MFL photos. Then, some bus and light rail photos. I got some NABIs and Neoplans before seeing and riding an ElDorado bus for the very first time. I have to admit, the bus was beter than I had expected. Rode #4537 on the #107 line. Walked back to the Terminal. Rode and took photos of the Suburban trolley line cars on Route 100) Rode it three stops and came back. Took some shots of the bus depot and train yard. Came back to 69th Street. Wanted to ride the #21 to Center City, but the guy wasn't leaving until 20 minutes after I got to the bus stop. So, I took the MFL train back. Rode #1086 to 15th St, where I rode and took shots of the BSS Kawasaki cars. Rode it to Walnut/Locust and took a look at the PATCO cars. Then, I did some walking, up Broad, east on Chestnut, north on 13th and west on Market.
At 13th/Market, rode the #33 line to Penns Landing and looked on the lines there for the New FLyer D40LF. No luck. Then, took some bus photos and took the #33 back to Market St. Went to the SEPTA Transit Store. Kinda like ours, but better than ours.
Finally, before taking the Greyhound back to NY, I found some NABIs with the black around the windows taken off! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!, I yelled. Why did they do that? Now it looks like an old SEPTA Neoplan! Ughh! Well, I took some photos of a NJT MCI D4000 and an MCI-9A at the Greyhound Bus Station. Went to NYC, while seeing some NJT, Red & Tan and DeCamp D4000s, Flxibles, and some RTS's and MCI-9A's and 9B's all in the mix! The rest is more boring than this, so I won't mention it.
Well, that was my trip! Hope you still gave a damn after reading all of this!
Cleanairbus
You did very well! I can't believe they let you ride the "loop" at 69th St. Was anybody upset to see you on board?
Chuck Greene
Of course, the more upsetting thing would have been if the train had gone to the yards instead of around the loop. Not upsetting from a railfan's point of view, but you probably would have gotten a good tongue-lashing from SEPTA staff. One of the drawbacks of one-man operation on the El is that the conductor could ensure that the train was empty before heading into the loop (not that they all always did this). I've been told that supervisors do a quick walk-by when trains are headed into the yards, but I would be careful about this.
Riding around the loop is discouraged also since this ensures that joy-riders will have to pay another fare for the return trip.
You are so correct! I never thought about that aspect of it if the
train went into the 69th st. yards! At the Frankford end of the line, you can walk across the platform and take the next 69th st. bound train, saving you (1) fare. I've never been hasseled doing that.
Chuck Greene
At the Frankford end (at least in the soon-to-become-history configuration) there is the island platform with a side platform on the east flank. The side platform is exit only and is generally used for trains going to the yard - trains come in on the NB track and open doors on the east side, allowing patrons to leave but not allowing anyone to board. In the coming reconfiguration of the terminal, the new station will have only the island platform, meaning that train crews (i.e. operator) must ensure that everyone leaves if the train is going to the yard.
The trick for crossing over on the west end of the line was to do it at Millbourne. The old configuration was one cashier booth which served both platforms (located adjacent to the EB platform, with a crossover to the WB just past it). The new configuration is to make it exit only WB with the booth only serving EB. Not that that inconveniences very many (if any) riders...
By the way, I know we're not on BusTalk here, but I think the all-white scheme on the NABI's is far better than the black window paint. SEPTA had the NABI's ready to be delivered in its then-current (white window) scheme before they arrived, and then for some reason agreed to pay $600 per bus to glop on the black paint. For this cost, they could've bought two or three more buses! That ranks right up there with the lighted SEPTA 'S' next to the front sign. I think I've seen maybe two of these that ever worked.
Sounds like a GOOD trip to me. Did you took a photo of ElDorado #4537 on 107? Also how did you got back to 69 St Terminal after you got off from the 107?
I decided to retire "CWalNYC" because I was more comfortable with and was more acquainted with the nickname "Cleanairbus". So, CLEANAIRBUS is my new handle!
Cleanairbus
carlwal@hotmail.com
hybridbus@aol.com
Today while riding the N Between Bay Pkwy and kingshighway I spotted an R-143 train.All the LCD signs were blank. I caught the numbers of three cars: 8108,8107 and 8106
i rode the E to the R to the 4 today. First thing i noticed. They seem to be runnin alot of Redbirds on the 4 lately. Second, Why is it, that during the eve rush hour there is always a redbird deadheading around 5 o clock? Where is he going?
Also, the R142As were on the 6 like white on rice. And they still make the sound when they pull off! God Bless us all tiny tim!!!
Not to mention those Redbird submarine photos bring a tear to us Redbird fans. But we must move on. LONG LIVE THE R142AS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you are talking about SB redbirds then what you are seeing are Rush hour extras (all #5's) that start from Bowling Green and head uptown. They are usually heading for 238th.
correction. the redbirds deadhead thru Wall st
Rode my first R142 today on the 2, I was running up the stairs at Penn Station and was taken a little by surprise as I jumped aboard the new train.
One surprise was that my first impression was that it wasn't nearly as different in "feel" from an R62 as, in the past, an R62 was from a Redbird, or in an earlier era, a Redbird from a Lo-V.
But one thing I couldn't figure out--that strip map with the updating station lights. How do they change from one map to another when the car is assigned to a different line?
sometimes its not on and when i was on an R142a on the 2 it wasnt on nothing was on it it wasnt programed in to it or they just program the train for the different line and slip them right out.
someone respond
this is r142man or trainguy
this is r142man or trainguy
You have two names? That's good to know.
Remember folks there aren't many rules here but one of them is: One handle per person. I took the liberty of disabling 'trainguy', thanks for pointing out that you were violating my rule.
Well Done, Sarge... Well Done.
[Theater clap and salute]
What can I say? I'm a military buff as well as an subway fanatic :)
Doesn't your keyboard have punctuation? It's hard to understand what you're saying.
R142a on the 2?
ive seen it once and on it
Wow, they're mixing R142 equippment already?
how long ago was this?
just in the summer like june havent seen the 7301-7310 on the 2 since.havent youve seen the r142a doing sim stops on the 2 almost all of them. because they have them at 239st
They have to remove and replace it.
I think the sign has a bar code on the back so that the sign is disabled if the wrong route is in the sign, and this way the LISTEN TO ANNOUNCEMENTS indicator is lit.
They have to remove and replace it.
That's incredible! After all these years they've come up with a signage system more labor-intensive than plate metal signs.
Plus ... they're removable? The TA better hire someone watch eBay 24/7.
I suspect the sign is just a piece of mylar over top of a big board with lots of little lights in it. All they'd need to do is change the plastic top and it would use different lights underneath corresponding to the new "holes" in the surface.
Do you know if they use a different overlay for short runs or different terminals on the same line?
They do so for the R-142As on the 6 line. There's a break in the strip map for Parkchester, since the train could go to either that terminal or Pelham Bay. They may also use a function that cuts the amount of stops that are lit up on the board, in case the train is due to terminate somewhere like 3 Av - 138th St. (like I saw earlier this week). But I haven't been on a short turn train to actually see this in action.
When a station was closed it was cut out of the map, so all the stations around it were on, but it stayed unlit
Well, different terminals exist on the 6 line--177th Street and Pelham Bay Park.
Also, I think on the R-110B with the A line, they used different colored lineage for the different extensions into Queens, and was thusly reflected correctly by the onboard computer.
thats right. their are lights under the the strip map. they are programmed to what line is the train running on along with exterior signs.
The problem is, different lines have different amounts of stops (I'm assuming, I've never actually counted the number of stops on any given line). Wouldn't this present problems with having too little or too many bulbs?
Imagine a grid that has maybe 10 lights high by 100 wide. Then you place a plastic cover on it with certain lights "visible". Then you program in which lights in which positions are used in which order. I don't know how many are on a sign but I bet there's enough "across" the map to illuminate any combination of local/express stops on the IRT.
Are the bulbs LEDs are some other kind?
They're LED, I blieve they are LED.
Cleanairbus
carlwal@hotmail.com
hybridbus@aol.com
I am certain that they are LED.
I don't understand why you all seem to think they can be changed. Hasn't anybody noticed that the TA has been color coding the car line asssignments? Orange strip under the numbers is the 4. You won't see any Redbirds on the 4 with a black strip, cuz that's the 2, and you won't see any with a green strip, cuz that's the 5. Seems like they're running the Bobmadier R142s on the 2, and the Kawasaki 142s on the 6. I bet you that never changes. The 3 train (blue stripe) has strip map stickers--yes they could put a new sticker over it, but I bet you they won't. Same with the 1 train (red stripe). Seems to me stablizing the line assignments makes a bunch of sense anyway.
They will eventually move the cars around. Unlike the 70s, most lines are now a single car type. If they one day decide to put 142s on the 1/9, they'll change the map and they'll change the yard assignment (and thus the color under the car number)
-Hank
Gee, just like my 'Lite Brite' from when I was 7.
-Hank
Does the r110A have this same function.
yes
yes they do any news
Sounds like major surgery! After all that will be 20 to replace. Guess that a given consist has to be dedicated to a given line. No more swapping cars between the 2 & 5.
>>Sounds like major surgery! After all that will be 20 to replace. Guess that a given consist has to be dedicated to a given line. No more swapping cars between the 2 & 5. <<
You really think that is going to stop them from swapping cars?
No, but they probably didn't think of the 2/5 swap when they came up with the lighted strip map idea. Odds are 10 years from now the maps will still be there, but the lighted part will have gone the way of the green flouresent illumunated route destination signs on the R-32 cars...
What are you tlaking about? The box on the 1 side of the cars or was there something that they took out?
All of the cars from the R-1s through the R-38s came with the ability to illuminate the destination signs from the rear. The R-16 through R-38s uses flouresent lights and in the 1960s as delivered, the R series cars on the A and B Divisions came with green flouresent lights, and when the train was in service, the specific destination, say Coney Island or Astoria on the N train, would be illumanated. But by the time the 1970s were half over, most of those lights were no longer being replaced and the signs were no longer back-lit to show the destination.
Wow, that'd be sooo cool to see them...
Well, from the photos on David's website, this is about as close as it gets to seeing them, since none of the R-32 shots are straight on with the lights illuminated.
Check out the light coming from the center destination sign window on the Q train just in front of the second door.
Cool thanks...
I'd like to see the wonderful Penn station signs on the subway. Someone somewhere pushes a button, and the signs make a wonderfull sound flipping around until the right sign is displayed. I LOVE those, and wonder if they could incorporate that into a subway car. It's an old technology so it won't happen, but I still love the classics.
I like them too. I wouldn't think NYCT should be against them because they aren't "new technology". After all, they accomplish both what the rollsigns do (legibility and route color) and what the digital signs do (the ability to change them all at once from a single location.) There may be some mechanical reason why they can't work on subway trains.
:) Andrew
They tried those flip signs on a bus (this was before the flip dots), the vibrations wreaked havoc. I'd assume the same problem would occur with a train.
No what's the problem with using an old-fashioned ROUTE SIGN?
I think the MTA would go to a full color LCD array for the next car after the R-160, if not the R-160 itself.
I would think that the whole set of plates for the flipsigns wouldn't fit--considering all of the varieties of possible terminals and routes. Solari-Udline (the makers of the flipsigns for the Long Island Railroad and Metro-North [before removal from GCS]) couldn't possibly make a more compact version because of the mechanics required to make them stop at a specific set of plates for display.
Cleveland's LRVs have Solari-type signs (possibly made by Solari itself). Granted there aren't as many destinations to cover, but they're there.
David
Butterfly Ballots.....
That is what they need!
The row of LEDs goes down the middle of the sign,
and the printer part flips like the signs in Penn Station
(Or like a Butterfly Ballot)
To display the appropriate route.
HMmmmmmm............
See. FLORIDA *is* good for something.
Elias
See. FLORIDA *is* good for something.
Of course? How else can we put oxymorons in Casablanca?
So, after reading all these posts, it turns out no one on SubTalk has any idea how the lighted signs actually work. Can we get someone to ask the MTA?
Sure, why don't you report back to us on that :-)
Yo! Where's da DUDE? :)
it turns out no one on SubTalk has any idea how the lighted signs actually work.
Why is that? They don't work on a difficult principle. I can say that I know how they work, only because it's so simple.
The question is not really how they work, but how you change them when the cars are reassigned to a new line. How hard is it? Does it require significant mechanical work, or is it a simple programming job?
You mean replace the signs?
It's like an ad.
The program is easily modified.
I bet it's a really simple prinicple:
(Terminal-Doors Open)-Terminal Light On.
(Doors Close)-Terminal Light On.
(Leave Terminal)-Station A Light On, Terminal Light Off.
(Arrive Station A-Doors Open)-Station A Light On.
(Station A-Doors Close)-Station A Light On.
(Station A-Doors re-open)-Station A Light On.
(Leave Station A-Doors Close)-Station B Light On.
and so on.
-Hank
I'm sure you're right, but the question is not really how they work, but how you change them when the cars are reassigned to a new line. How hard is it? Does it require significant mechanical work, or is it a simple programming job?
One more thing: If the signs are the wrong ones for the line, text will light up telling the person the sign is wrong and to listen to announcements. The LED interior displays and automated announcements will work even for the most exotic reroutes.
My last post was a real screw up. I jumped the gun and thought Old Tom was referring to the battle between David Cole and ItalianGuyInSI. Though the post does reflect my true feelings in the matter, it was the wrong response to that particular post. My apologies to you Old Tom.
Eric D. Smith
You may want to check out a few updates on my links page.
If you have any interest in the LIRR at all, check out the "Online Museum of the Long Island Rail Road." Samples from Art Huneke collection are take-your-breath-away fabulous.
Another delivery for the record books!
-Stef
really that interesting to note so one more testing soon
I worked an RDO today and I was sent to Astoria to work the N line. I went there with mixed emotions knowing that beacuse the Manhattan Bidge north side is closed, anything could happen. I must say, no amount of preparation would have prepared me for what I was about to experience.
I was supposed to make the 12:33 interval out of Astoria to Coney Island. But guess what? There were no N trains! Both pockets had W trains and there was another W sitting at Astoria Blvd. I had to wait almost 20 minutes before an N came! So as a result, of course, all of the stations from Astoria to Queensboro Plaza were crowded. When we finally got to Queensboro Plaza, we had to wait 3 to 4 minutes for the road to clear up in front of us; there were Ws and Rs being crossed in front of us. When we did move, we creeped through the tube, through Lexington Ave., Fifth Ave., 57th St., and 49th St.
I didn't understand this. This wasn't rush hour. This was midday! It looked like a conga line of trains going downtown. Even from 57th St., the Q trains were piling up behind the other while the Ws were being crossed from the local to the express. It was all one big mess.
Needless to say, I slowly made my way through Manhattan into Brooklyn. I looked at my watch and saw that as I was pulling into 36th St., I should have been pulling into Stillwell! The platform was packed. As soon as everyone gets on the train, I get a transmission from Murphy Tower on my radio that because of the lateness, we'll be going express along Sea Beach.
Great. Just what I needed.
Now I have to tell all these people that the train will be running express. As I do this, I'm receiving a a whole lot of anger from the frustrated passengers. "What the f---?" "Damn it!" "I paid good money for this s----- service." "You bastard!" "What the hell is going on here?" Those are just a few of the things I had hurled at me at I closed down my train.
I feel for them. But I don't make the rules. I'm a foot soldier. I just play by them.
We finally get to Stillwell Ave., a whole 26 minutes late. But there's no time to rest real quick. It's time to go back to Astoria! LOL
That second trip was worse than the first one. There were more trains, more people, more cursing, and more headaches. By the time I was finished and made it back to Astoria, I was 22 minutes late. I just couldn't win.
And to think, I been complaining about my C line. Well, I got a new respect for it after dealing with the Broadway nightmare. And I hear this is an everyday occurance with the N. Sheesh.
Come Thursday I'll be running back to the A. Perhaps Dorothy said it best: there's no place like home.
Road Dog. I can feel for you. But that crap would never happen if the N was put back to 57th Street or Times Square as its northern terminal and only one train did Astoria. The Sea Beach is BMT and never had or has any business going to Astoria. Turning my train into a damn local was one mistake in the first place, and they compound the felony by taking it off the bridge.
2 trains to astoria is just fine. thanks.
Agree!
N Bwy
I thought the Astoria line was always a BMT line, perhaps operated jointly with the IRT for a time, but still BMT, correct??????
My understanding is that the Astoria Line was always BMT.
Nope. Back around the turn of the 19th-20th centuries, the BMT (BRT actually) and the IRT did a joint operation along both the Astoria and Flusing lines, with both lines connected at a once massive Queensboro Plaza complex. This was when both lines ran equipment with the same dimensions, before the dual system was drawn up and the BRT broke out their AB "Standards."
The Astoria and Flushing lines were Dual Contracts lines whose stations had IRT clearances. Since the BMT could not use their 10-foot-wide cars on them, they maintained service using gate cars. When the 1939-40 World's Fair came along, so did the Q cars, themselves former gate cars. The dual arrangement lasted until 1949, when the Flusing line became IRT-only (even it still used a BMT radio frequency and continues to do so today) and the Astoria line became BMT-only and had its platforms shaved back.
Fred, I can understand your anger. It would seem to me that outside of rush hours, there's no need for for two services up there at Astoria. It was a madhouse up there yesterday. And I'm still alive to tell the tale.
I'll let you in on a little secret, Fred. One I don't think you'll like to hear. The W is considered to be a high priority line, so it gets preference over the N even though it's running on the N line. I was told this by the dispatcher. So Ws are allowed to run roughshod over the Ns in terms of access to the terminal and who gets crossed over a switch first. Damn, this sounds like my C, which also gets no respect. The difference is that the N used to be a proud Broadway Express from 57th Street to Coney Island by way of the Sea Beach Line. Now it's been reduced to scraping the wall and will have the life choked out of it for the next four years by the W.
What a shame.
During the mid-60's prior to the Chrystie opening the T ran to Astoria only during rush hours and ran local both ways in and out of Astoria. The reason I know that is not because what was printed on some map rather the trains that were being used at the time. Only R32s signed as T ran to Astoria only during peak service hours. QT signed trains were R27/30.
My disclaimer here is that I haven't lived in Astoria for 25 years so I don't know how usage patterns have changed since. But if the problems that are occurring are due to W trains going to Astoria all day with express in the peak direction, then have the W go local both ways or limit the W to Astoria during rush hours only and 57th St middays.
How does the current situation compare with the MB flip where the B went to Astoria? What was the impact to the N?
The current N train situation sucks. Even worse than the days of the RR. I moved out of Astoria in 1976.
Astoria T-QT-QB-RR Railfan
Well, I can tell you that making the Ws local won't improve the bottlenecking conditions at Astoria. As fast as some of these train get backed up, within a matter of minutes trains would be all the way to Queensboro Plaza. As I said, the W should be a rush hour service to Astoria only.
Another problem is that the Qs terminate at 57th Street. I believe that the Q should end at 21st Street- Queensbridge with the Sixth Avenue Shuttle. That way switches are freed to accomodate the Ws more efficiently and there isn't that big of a delay to N and R riders.
Sending the "Q"s to 21-Queensbridge is all well and good; what then happens this November when the "F" takes over there and "V" service begins? Whither do these "Q" turn? In the pocket behind Lexington Avenue/63rd Street?
wayne
That's a good question, Wayne. That does pose a problem of sorts. But then again, you're assuming that the TA will go ahead and implement it plan for adding V service to Second Avenue. As it stands now, Second Avenue is already busy with Queensbridge Shuttles turning back there, not to mention Fs constantly running in and out on five to six minute headways. I wouldn't be surprised if the TA postponed it's plans to start V service due to all this Manhattan Bridge aftermath.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Good Idea
Eliminate the V run the Q to Queens
perhaps the real jkey to turning them q's at 57th would be to use part of the connector - instead of backing trains up down the express track waiting for a slot at the platform, make some pull past the station & turn back when a track opens.
I have no idea if that'd help or add to problems... but thought i'd toss it out there anyway
Given the bottlencking problems on all of the Broadway lines, the V service should be postponed until the aftermath of the MB reconstruction. Send the diamond Q to 21st St.--Queensbridge!
Er..., all of the Qs would have to be sent to Queensbridge so as not to block 57th/7th. Still, this would help ease the problems. (Better yet, run them express to Jamaica--diamond Q exp. on Hillside too, with the F as local, scuttle the V plan altogether.) Another way to ease the Broadway congestion in the rush hour, would be to replace half of the circle Q trains by extending the Z train route to Coney Island. This should reduce the number of trains on the Broadway express track by 4-5 tph. True, it would increase by 4-5 the trains running on the downtown Brooklyn track, but sharing with the M, Never, and Rarely should not be too difficult. Brighton line riders would then have basically the same services as during the '70s during the rush: 3/4 of the trains to midtown, 1/4 downtown.
Good Idea
And maybe, instead of , label it the (V)..end THAT bit of confusion while your clearing things up!
Firstly, I hardly see the need to run 2 broken shuttle services along the same line(6th Avenue). Are there really that many people getting off at Bleeker that they need a line just to get them to Grand Street and no further?
Now, questions and observations:
A) Why in the world are they not using the 63rd St. Connector? If its a question of having too much traffic going to Queens Blvd. then...
B) Why not cut the G back to Court Square as they're probably going to do eventually anyway, and run a line from Grand Street into Queens via 63rd St?
C) Why not run the W onto Queens Blvd. instead of having the R switch tracks and cause all kinds of chaos? Or even better, only run two Broadway trains to Queens at all. Doesn't the fact that the 60th Street tube is only double-tracked contribute to any of the delays with having three trains run over it?
D) Is there really so much traffic on Broadway that it needs three rush hour expresses?
Just correct me if I'm wrong but these look like much more reasonable alternatives to what the MTA is doing now. It seems almost as if the MTA is running trains over unused track just for the heck of it and not really looking at what works best or even makes sense.
"D) Is there really so much traffic on Broadway that it needs three rush hour expresses? "
Yes, there truly is that much traffic and more besides.
Switching trains to the local track would cause more delays than you can ever imagine.
Unfortuantely, construction factors dictate switching and delays.
Guess what: Adding servicecs ie 63rd Street Connector causes delays because of the different routings that it requires.
Subway lines need to be designed to move people where they want to go, but they also need to be designed so that trains to not try to contradict with each other.
Unfortunatly, lines built in the 19nothings cannot realign themselves as quickly as whole neighborhoods can grow, and decay, and be reborn again. When we try to flex services to cover where the people have moved to, we create delays on transit lines that cannot be moved.
Or so it seems to me.
Elias
Well what exactly do you mean by "the different routings that it requires."
The two reasons I suggested using it was:
A) It's a brand new piece of line that much hoopla has been made about and now it sits unused like so many other longer stretches of track throughout the system. Though it really isn't any different from using a line "just for the heck of it" as I accused the TA of doing, when exactly are they going to start using it?
B) The idea of two separate shuttle services bouncing off each other along the same line(Grand Street and Queensbridge shuttles) just bothers me. Why not just have one? The one Shuttle goes up to Queensbridge anyway. Checking both route and track maps, it really shouldn't cause any delays unless R trains run on too short a headway to accomodate it and cutting the G back wouldn't alleiviate anything.
As far as switching local/express tracks, from 57th/7th to just before QBP, all Broadway trains use the same two tracks. What difference would it make sending the W to Forest Hills instead of the R besides historical? If you keep the same train on the same track for as long as possible, it reduces the need for other lines to have to experience delays because of a bottleneck.
Answers:
A) Scheduled service through the 63rd Street Connector is, as discussed here many times, planned to start the week of November 11, 2001.
B) There are two separate shuttles because, as discussed here many times, there is no switch between Broadway-Lafayette and Grand Street, making it extremely difficult if not impossible to operate service at a decent frequency unless it's a single-track shuttle. This shuttle service is planned to be extended to W. 4th Street when V service starts the week of November 11, 2001 in conjunction with the opening of the 63rd Street Connector to scheduled service. At the same time, the northern Sixth Avenue shuttle will be discontinued as 57th Street-Sixth Avenue, Roosevelt Island, and 21st Street-Queensbridge are slated to be served at all times by a mainline service (at this point the F, though anything can happen).
As to sending the W to Continental Avenue instead of the R, the reason the R goes to Continental Avenue is to give the R trains easy access to a maintenance shop. For many years prior to 1997, N trains ran between Coney Island and Continental Avenue (with a maintenance shop on each end), while R trains ran between Astoria and 95th Street (with a maintenance shop at neither end -- cars were assigned to Coney Island and a great deal of out-of-service maneuvering was needed to get them there). Switching the R with the W would just bring this situation back. Besides, since the W operates only in Brooklyn on weekends due to the volume of construction projects in Brooklyn and Manhattan, doing so would take Broadway service away from Queens Boulevard riders needlessly.
David
I would also add that not all the switching work was worked out and QB master tower has some kinks to work out on the human side before the connector would really work well on a fulltime basis. These weekend G.O's were also used to finetune headways on the 63 st.
It already gets a bit of use during rush hour when the F or R line blows up. They usually send 3-4 trains theough while whatever problem gets rectified.
I don't really think they want to use 63rd to capacity, it is good to have a bit extra for when the rails blow up and you can do some reroutes.
Time to add some Q trains in the mix there with the R off Broadway, that will really add up!
"Sending the "Q"s to 21-Queensbridge is all well and good; what then happens this November when the "F" takes over there and "V" service begins? Whither do these "Q" turn? In the pocket behind Lexington Avenue/63rd Street?"
I agree, the Q should have gone to Queensbridge 21st Street instead of it's current terminus. At least temporarily...
N Bwy
Postpone the V and the F service plan until the MB is fully open. North terminal of shuttle should be 57th/6th.
It has already announced to Queens commuters that the 63rd St. connection will be opened in the fall. Nov.15th is the tentative date. There have been many signal modifications made in Queens (among things) to support this. It will not be postponed till the Manny Bridge comes back in 2004 or whenever. Queens commuters should not have their service enhancements postponed (I have serious issues over all the crossing over at Queens Plaza however) over something which is happening on the BMT in Brooklyn.
Another mess would be if you have 2 lines running on the 63rd st. line. I know they do this now on late nights and weekends, but on a weekday schedule, have the E and V run on the 53rd st. line, have the R on the 60 st. line off the 11 st. cut, and on 63rd St. have the F from 6th Ave., and mix a bunch of Q circle trains off the Broadway line instead of terminating it at 57 St., how would that be for measure. Although, in 1995 the Q ran from 21 st-Queensbridge down to 57 st./7th Ave. when the Manhattan Bridge was closed most of the time except rush hours. I would like this to happen some time to alleviate the other messes of the so-called seperation of BMT/IND since the 6th Ave. side of the bridge is closed. Could anyone else see that happen as a possibility. I know there would be very unhappy G riders. But on weekends, you can still terminate the Q at 57 St., so it would not be bad after all for those weekend G riders.
"I know they do this now on late nights and weekends, but on a weekday schedule, have the E and V run on the 53rd st. line, have the R on the 60 st. line off the 11 st. cut, and on 63rd St. have the F from 6th Ave., and mix a bunch of Q circle trains off the Broadway line instead of terminating it at 57 St., how would that be for measure"
How does circle Q get preference over diamond Q?
I agree the Q s should go to 21st St. Run the D to Grand St, elimanate the S Shuttle. Pleople could walk 1 block to 7th Ave, or if they are lazy, take the train to 34th and back track.
The Triplexes also ran on the West End during their final days of service, operating to either Astoria or Queensboro Plaza.
I have a Brighton Exp B&W Photo somewhere of a Triplex in Astoria in 1955
NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Fred... our N train...!!! It's lost priority to a fake yellow... btw... where does the R rank in all of this? It's probably just me, but I don't notice a change in N service... it still seems pretty much the same... except now, sometimes, I have to wait longer... but doesn't look THAT bad... maybe I just don't realize it.
You was expecting a Dubya train to be kinder and gentler? :)
Kinder and gentler? I was expecting no DabO-Yuu train in the first place...
Everything's kind of like the OLD Numbered BMT with the exception of the fact that the "N" runs via Tunnel whereas one of the old #1 services (later the "QT") used to do that. And instead of three Brighton services ("Q", "QB", "QT") you have two. The "W" is like the old #3 was (did they use #3 for the Nassau Loop?).
The "N" does get its express run on weekdays between 59th and Pacific.
wayne
The West End Short Line, later the TT, was technically also a #3, just as Brighton locals and expresses were 1s. The Triplexes may very well have been used on the Short Line, in which case they would have sported #3 signs.
Back in the late 40s and early 50s during rush hours, when the West End was cut to Bay Pkwy in AM Rush Hours, Then ran a 1 unit Triplex as a shuttle to Stillwell with the number 3, and even ocassionally when the Culver was also cut short to kings Hwy, they even ran a Triplex marked 5 from KH to Stillwell. Very rarely though you found a Triplex on the Brighton Local
Even the idea of a Triplex on the Culver in ANY circumstances-VERY weighty cars for that el....Basically the Triplexs were used on the Sea Beach and Brighton expresses- lines with no or VERY sturdy el structures...right?
The El part of the Brighton was only 1/2 mile long between Neptune and and the Station, plus another 1/4 of layup track to Ocean Pkwy. The el portion of the Sea Beach was only at Stillwell Station.
The Dual Contracts elevated portions could support the Triplexes. AFAIK the only section that could not was between Eastern Parkway and Cypress Hills on today's J/Z line.
Supposedly they were moved to the West End to get them off the bridge. But if they ran on what is now the W, they still used the bridge.
I think that they only ran SOME Standards on the West End.....and then maybe only off of Nassau during the rush.........
Just to show that the N has lost priority... today at 36 (Manhattan Bound), the N pulled into 36 on the express tracks with a W on the local tracks. The W not only leaves first, but also gets switched over to the express tracks. They coudn't run it express on the local tracks like they also do? And what was the W doing on those tracks anyway? Someone lost was called into the boss' office today...
Hang them by their fingernails. That's the exact type of crap I've been moaning about the past two years. I KNOW someone has it in for the Sea Beach line. Sort of reminds me of old Mayor Hyland, who in a fit of spite, launched that lunatic IND sytem on New Yorkers without trying to supplement the BMT but to compete along the same areas of routes. One of these days.........
Hey! Hey! Watch it, bub ... that IND was my homey, and that pissant BMT won't get you to da Bronix no matter WHAT train ya rides ... and you talking up this "Bronx ain't so bad, yada yada ..." We're ONTO ya, fool! Heh. Bustini, bustini ...
But for those of us on the OTHER SIDE of the Emerald City, the IND is cool. It WASN'T the IRT which is everywhere ELSE Bronx. Hylan built *US* a subway. Did the BMT? I think not. :)
The BMT knew what most of us Sea Beach fans knew. The Bronx wasn't worth our time. It was nowhere. KIDDING!!!!!!! Hey Selkirk, you got my respect for standing up for your IND and the Bronx. Be sure to catch the Little League game featuring the Bronx. As some of the stunned railfanners on this site have noticed I am pulling for Danny Almonte and the boys. As least for the next few days, Go Bronx.
They got moided rats
I heard, and congrats go out to the kids. Sorry that the BMT was meaningless north of Central Park, but that was their decision not to "compete" with the IRT ... the *BUS* was often a better ride than the small sardine cans. So up our way, we were GRATEFUL for the IND if you happened to live close enough to the TWO lines that served the north part of the city - everywhere else, it was "IRT or walk." We would have WELCOMED the Sea Beach if it came to town, but alas it didn't.
Never could understand the rivalry thing between the Bronx and Brooklyn, but perhaps it was better to have us at each other's throats than for us to march into Manhattan and choke some political neck. :)
Yankees and Dodgers mostly
Well, being from the Bronx, I was a METS fan. After all, when you have to live with Steingrabber, you're not terribly impressed. :)
All right Selkirk, a Mets fan in the Bronx. That's good to hear, and though they are having a poor year after winning the NL Pennant last year they will make the changes necessary to bounce back. There are some good free agents out there, and Philips had better get off his ass and make the changes necessary to get the Mets back on top. Not trading for Gary Sheffield was a stupid move on his part and the whole Mets organization knows it. Philips could be shown the door if he screws up like that again.
They did not want to pay the money for him
That goes for A-Rod, too.
Hey, Fred, it could be worse. In the late 70s, the Mets didn't go after free agents because they wanted to keep ticket prices down. This was when the Payson family still owned the team. They did anything and everything to save a buck. What they didn't realize was if you have a bad team, you won't be able to give away tickets. In 1979, the Mets drew a total of 788,000 and change to Shea.
I didn't have to stand that. I became a Mets fan in 1984 when Keith Hernandez was beginning his first full season with the team, when Dwight Gooden was a rookie, when Davey Johnson became a manager and put Wally Backman at second base, and that pepperpot in center field, and I just went blank and can't remember his name. And he was my favorite Met.......Got it Lenny Dykstra.
You picked a good time to join the club, so to speak.
Since M. Donald Grant was villified in New York for trading Tom Terrific to the Reds in 1977 was in reality doing the Payson family bidding.
After Mrs. Payson died, her daughter, Lorinda de Roulet, became owner and gave M. Donald Grant carte blanche to run things as he saw fit. He ran the franchise into the ground, essentially. Put it this way: if Gil Hodges hadn't died, the Mets wouldn't have gone in the crapper the way they did in the late 70s. Grant never questioned Hodges on anything. An interesting scenario would have been Hodges as GM and Whitey Herzog as manager. We could conceivably have had a Subway Series or two back then.
Instead, Shea Stadium became known as Grant's Tomb.
When Horace Stoneham announced on August 20, 1957 that the New York Giants were moving to San Francisco in 1958 the vote was 8-1 among the Board of Directors. Who cast the negative vote? You guessed it, Donald Grant.
Yep, and that was why Joan Whitney Payson wanted him on board when the Mets were formed. Willie Mays was her favorite athlete, bar none. She'd always wanted him back in New York and finally got her wish, but by then Mays had nothing left.
Steve, for you and for the record, on March 30-April 1 of this year I was in New York for the 50th Anniversary of the 1951 Giants=Dodgers playoff extravaganza. (Also for a great railfanning excursion planned by my buddy Doug Wengeroff). Willie Mays did not show up and some of the Giants were real pissed off at him. He has become somewhat of an embittered person. For what it confounds me. He is the greatest player I ever saw and many say the same thing. Yet he has become somewhat of a curmudgeon. He did stay too long but so did Henry Aaron. Mickey Mantle, and Stan Musial. Sandy Koufax did it right. He left on top and we all remember him in his prime as the greatest pitcher in baseball history.
Sandy Koufax retired because of an arthritic elbow. He didn't want to risk permanently damaging his arm. Mantle retired at 36 because his body was basically shot. He was the first to admit that if he had taken better care of himself, he would have put up much better numbers. OTOH he was always afraid he wouldn't live to be 40 because his father and grandfather both died of Hodgkin's disease before they reached 40. One of his sons also died from it. That may be why he partied as much as he did.
Interestingly, Musial was going to retire at the end of the 1961 season. Then the Mets came into being. The story goes that Musial took one look at the pitching roster they had and started drooling over all the hits he could get if he kept playing. He wound up batting .330 in 1962, then dropped to .255 in 1963.
Good points and right on the mark on all fronts. Still, it was nice that Koufax could go out on top, arthrtic elbow and all. Better than the way Mays went out.
Yeah, it was painful to watch Mays in his final days, especially after the way he misjudged that fly ball in the '73 World Series. He had nothing left.
In John Elway's case, and for that matter, Ray Bourque, you couldn't have written a better script. Both retired on top as champions. Bourque could have stayed on, but Elway said he couldn't do it physically anymore.
Grant and the Payson family had a certain old-line patrician bearing about them, which in some ways was admirable -- after all, they were willing to buck the baseball establishment in 1958-59 with Branch Rickey because they felt New York had been wronged by O'Malley and Stoneham's moves out of New York.
Unfortunately, what O'Malley did was not an abberation but an omen of things to come in the sports world, and Grant and the Paysons were slow to adjust to life following the Curt Flood antitrust ruling and the Andy Messerschimt arbitration ruling in the early 1970s, and got left behind by Steinbrenner in the new world of free agency.
(That being said, the only reason why the Yanks roared back like they did in the late 1990s was because George got his butt suspended again over the Dave Winfield-Howie Spira thing and he was forced to put competent people in charge of running the organization for two years. His free agency buys in the 1980s and early 1990s were mostly disasters, and if he hadn't gotten bounced the Yanks would probably still be floundering around like they were between 1989 and 1994 and would have gone through about seven managers since 1996.)
Hey, good choice.:-)
Gee, 26 World Championships in total, 3 in row and 4 of 6 doesn't impress you????!!!!!!!!????? What does it take??????????
I know -- a total of 3 World Championships (BK Dodgers and Mets alltime combined!) THAT IS IMPRESSIVE!
Hey Piggo, chill out and have a ham sandwich.
I'm sure all 25 of today's Yankees have been responsible for those great wins in 1923, 1926, 1927 and 1928.
Not to mention 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, and 1962.
Mickey Mantle remembers that after the Yankees won the 1958 World Series after being down 3 games to 1, the city didn't even give them a ticker tape parade. They were expected to win it all every year.
I remember hearing about that. One reason could be that it could be contrued to infuriate Giants and Dodgers fans, still seething over the loss of their teams. Remember in 1958, despite having all of New York to themselves, the Yankees actually drew less fans than they did in 1957, the last year of the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants.
Wait a minute. The Mets and Dodgers have combined for a total of 8 World Championships, IIRC.
Mets: 1969 and 1986
Dodgers: 1955, 1959, 1963, 1965, 1981, and 1988.
How about the giants thru 54,
I remember 1963 and 1981 when they beat the Yankees. I think that is the only time I can remember I rooted to the LA version of the Dodgers. Oh yes, I did in 1977-78 when they also played the Yankees. But that is all.
And then there was 1941,47,49,52,53,56 who won then?
I only remember 1955. Besides they were the Brooklyn Dodgers then, and I was a Dodger fan then.
When Duke Snider came over to the Mets in 1963, Casey Stengel would start reminiscing about all the Yankee-Dodger World Series except for 1955. Whenever Duke would bring up 1955, Stengel would answer, "We'll talk about that later."
Sounds like Fre, he wants top forget 41.47.49.53.53 and 56 and remember 55
I already have. I'm also told that in 2005, the 50th Anniversary of that great event the old Brooklyn ballplayers will be feted in a big celebration in New York. I'll by there, that I can assure you.
How many of them are still alive? Duke Snider is the only one I can think of out of the regular non-pitchers, and Carl Erskine and Sandy Koufax are two of the pitchers.
Branca is still alive, he works with mu nephew selling insurance in White Plains
So is Don Newcombe and Clem Labine. I have a picture of me taken with Labine hanging in my classroom. Don Zimmer is still alive. What people didn't know was that he started at second a great deal of the time in 1955. He hit 15 homers for the team. Gilliam was alternating with Amoros in left field for most of the year, neither having much of a season.
I figured some of the 1955 Dodgers would still be alive. Campy, Hodges, Robinson, Reese, and Furillo are gone. Was George Shuba still with the club then? He retired at the age of 31.
Yes he was. That was his last year with the Dodgers.
.
Stupid and unintelligent as it is, eh SUBWAYSURF?
Half the time, I don't even know WHAT they're talking about. Nothing but trashy and junky, useless posts that have NOTHING to do with the SUBWAY, and Branca and Labine people hanging on people's classrooms and useless things like that.
Railfan Pete.
Uh oh, we got another subwaysurf type on who doesn't like Steve's Bob's or Fred's messages. Aw shucks. Well you can killfile us or just not read us. I don't read posts from some of the people on Subtalk. Maybe you ought to bypass us if it really torques your gord.
Wow! From "The Broadway Line" to "The Broadway Line - ONE BIG MESS" which evolves into threads about baseball! Quite a transition I must say.
You ain't seen nothing yet.:-)
Who cares if there's any content on this particular thread: let's make "The Broadway Line-ONE BIG MESS" the post with the most responses ever.
JUST KEEP THIS THREAD GOING!!!!!
Nice going J, at least you're in the spirit of the thing, not one of those thought police types that bitch and complain about what others write. If they had half a brain they would know that they don;t have to read the posts of people who might go off topic once in a while. But apparently they don't.
ok i will do my part in this !! .......lol !!!
imagine that """ pigs "" enjoying the railfan window .......lol !!
THE RAILFAN WINDOW LIVES ON
you are singing to the chior & the best audience & #1 fan here !!!
INSTALL RAILFAN WINDOWS ON THE R-142s
If you want a railfan window WITH a transverse cab, try NJ TRANSIT's Arrow EMU's.
But you have to be lucky to get one, as some single-minded conductors and/or engineers put up the metal plate marked "NO ADMITTANCE", which blocks the window.
But it is not ideal for someone to stay in front of the window because the conductors move in and out of the engineer's cab, and you wouldn't want to block their way.
Also, on the North Jersey Coast Line, the diesel trains from Bay Head to Long Branch, I was lucky enough to catch an Arrow I (Comet IB's) engineer's cab car, with the door open.
I got to look out the window on the front of the train. Boy, the front looks a LOT different than the sides! Because you have more field of view.
: )
Railfan Pete.
what do you think my chances of shooting a video is on one ?? ( as you described ) ???
Um, David has this thread broken up now, so it is no longer the longest thread in the community of SubTalk.
The baseball thread has more or less 21 responses.
: |
Railfan Pete.
No um david just put part of the thread in the ARCHIVES. it will be back together when the rest joins it. you Bigot.
It will be the longest thread ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Except for maybe "what waS the subway like in the 70s and 80s")
Or "What's your favorite line?" Or "Favorite subway cars".
lets at least wait till october for this, my boys in the bronx are currently 12 games ahead of boston so they'll clinch the AL East anytime now. Mets may have a fighting chance to make the post season to, but its certainly still a long shot. -Nick
They're 13 games up now. Anybody care to predict how many games the Mariners will win? 103 as of today.
He also happens to Bobby Valentine's father-in-law.
In the words of Russ Hodges: "Branca throws...there'a long shot! I think it's going to be, I believe, THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!! THE GIANTS WON THE PENNANT!!!
And to think that home run would have been an easy out at Ebbets Field.
Red Sox fans feel the same way about Bucky Dent's homer in 1978, on their case, they would have rather had the game played on the road, at Yankee Stadium, then at Fenway, where Dent's routine fly was turned into a homer by their beloved Green Monster.
By the same token (no pun intended), you had a lot of 430-foot outs in the old Yankee Stadium. Same deal at Forbes Field in Pittsburgh.
If I recall correctly from other places on this site, the BMT did have plans to go at least as far as 155th St. with their Broadway line, a hop, skip, and jump from the Bronx (and then probably into the Bronx, too) were it not for Rat Hylan.
Could be ... then again, the IND was going to go crosstown from 205th also ... so many plans, so few build-outs. But I'll wait on the platform for the Sea Beach. Sadly, wasn't until the Chrystie street THANG that the BMT came to the Bronx though we already had the D train. :)
Yeah, but only when the BMT D came through did you get the BMT Brightliners. A big improvement over the IND R1/9 cattle cars.
Heh. How true ... at the time though, I preferred to run the familiars ... those with a whole lot more seniority got the brightliner runs ... and back then, no air conditioning in those either.
I loved the R-1/9s. It was the BMT standards that looked ugly to me.
The D Train ran on the BMT to Coney Island as early as 1954 on The Culver. Christie St switched it to the Brighton
That's correct ... but the Culver (after the Culver shuttle was created by cutting it from 36th) was considered "IND" after the lashup to it was done. (in other words, Culver was once BMT but became IND) so Chrystie was the first time as I see it that the BMT came to the Bronx if you can follow my soft logic.
The signs along McDonald Ave still were green and black BMT
Wowsers ... never noticed, but I'll take your word for it. But we all know once the "Culver shuttle" was carved, it "became" IND territory.
Unfortunately, the Culver assumed IND character with its ugly R1/9 equipment. The Culver seemed always to get inferior equipment as compared with the other southern division lines. The Brighton and Sea Beach had the Triplexes, all except Culver had the standards and later the R27/30s, and yet later, of course, the Brightliners. The Culver did not get anything good until it got hooked as the F.
The Culver had the few ex SIRT cars in the late 50s, some Qs on a Rush Hour Shuttle between Kings Hwy and Stillwell, and of course the standards
Oh you Culver and Brighton guys make we want to throw up. The Sea Beach gets the advantages? What the hell have you guys been smoking anyway? We get thrown off the bridge, we become a local, we have our desinates symbol changed, and now I hear we will be barred from Stillwell Avenue. Give me a break. If anyone has a right to bitch it's us Sea Beach aficianados. The MTA has been given us the short end of the stick for three decades now.
stop crying already:::
Barred from Stillwell? Can someone explain this one to me?
The Stillwell Terminal is to close for renovations, during this time only one train will service it.
The MTA has decided that it should be the W (some good that does on weekends). Fred has chosen to complain about it as a slight against the Sea Beach, ignoring that the F and Q will also lose access.
Hey Pig old buddy, let me put some new colors in your paint box. The fact is Stillwell Avenue has always been the Southern terminal for the Sea Beach while the F and Q were not. And the W? That's a new line. So I have every right to complain about the Sea Beach getting the short end of the stick. So bear with it until we get the respect we deserve. Notice I put me and the Sea Beach as a team? That should tell you something.
I completly agree with fred and pig. Pig on the point that the W will do no good on weekends and fred that all the other trains didn't have their southern terminal there for their entire lifetime. W is new and weekends will become worse for Stillwell people. Q is great and all, but gets termed at mid Manhattan. F is quite important as it's the only train on culver and covers a lot more track. The N also is important becasue it's the only one at sea beach and that line gets PACKED during rush hours. Well, maybe the N doesn't need to go all the way to Stillwell, but the W being the only train there... I don't think the residents of CI deserve that kind of punishment...
Attaboy Go N. Keep it up. Maybe the rest of the Sea Beach crowd will get the courage to stand up and be heard. I guess the MTA doesn't believe in continuity, otherwise our train wouldn't always be getting the shaft.
The F can't go there because it is such a long ride into Manhattan.
You're obscuring the issue by using the name Sea Beach while using the letters for all the other lines.
If you fairly used the names for all of the lines, then the West End, Sea Beach, Culver and Brighton have always used Stillwell as their terminal, there are no new lines.
If you use all letters, then the N doesn't win. The first letter train to Stillwell was the D via Culver.
Go back far enough, before the modern structure was built, and only the Brooklyn, Bath and West End used the terminal. The New York and Sea Beach had its own terminal at West 10th.
So you see, running the West End to Stillwell is the most historically correct way of doing it. But we know the true reason is that the N is the slowest line to Coney Island. Of all people riding to Coney Island, N serves the fewest.
Tell in Pig. Even in the old days the Brighton was 1 and the West End was 3 so the Sea Beach never was the most important line there(culver 5 and Franklin 7)
Nana nana nan aaaa. Just fall in line and agree with everything the Pig is saying. Ever thought of becoming a vantriloquist (as the puppet?). Since you're my pal I will let it pass but everyone knows you don't like the Sea Beach and have an ax to grind. So start grinding.
Did I complain when we took the Sea Beach from Coney Island to DeKalb, We could have taken the Q but I let you have your way
And did I bitch when we took the Q or Brighton or whatever the hell it's called now when we went back to Coney? No I didn't. To tell the truth I had a hell of a good time that day. And, yes, that Russian girl in the deli was very cute. But don't get the wrong opinion. It was all in fun.
Yes, Fred she was. And I'll take Adelman's over Nathan's any day. So no need for me to take the Slow Beach, or whatever you call it.
To q Brightliner, do you know what girl we are talking about in Adelmans?
Yes, I was there twice, the first time 6 days before you and the second time the day after you. She was quite striking.
You know what I call it Q, so don't get funny. Yes, I am pleased that we agree on that young lady. Those Russian girls are really something else. Though high cheek bones are really attractive. But if Bob tells you I tried to pick her up, consider the source. He was too busy looking at the pastrami. Now what the hell would anyone want to look at pastrami when you can look and talk to a pretty girl? Only my friend BOB!
There are plenty of pretty young women where I come from, too. They are everywhere. But there are certain things one can enjoy only in New York. One of them is (the dwindling number) of kosher delicatessens. BTW, the corn beef and the brisket were far better than the pastrami. Out of this world. And the crinckle cut fries. Half sour pickles. Cream soda (Dr. Brown's, of course). And getting there with the Q Brighton Express. But next time I'll be sure to take #1 Brighton Express Bob's advice, and stop in for an egg cream at the south exit of the Kings Highway station.
Have a Egg Cream For me. God I wish I had one right now. Have the U Bet but have to get the Seltzer. Yes She was cute the Russian Girl, but she speaks better English then some Native Born, and if she never said she was Russian Born, you never would have guessed it. Smart Girl going to Sarah Lawrence this Semester, even though she graduated from Midwood(I am a Madison boy myself along with hey Paul)I hope to go back to NY in October for a weekend to check out housing for next year
That neighborhood was a hoot Bob. It must have been great growing up there. It seemed to alive, and I wish to hell that I wasn't so full of pasta or I would have had an egg cream, too. I got it, maybe I will open up a small New York style candy store when I retire. Nothing fancy, just five or six stools, some good Breyers ice cream, and the best egg creams and phosphates around. Wow, you guys have given me one hell of an idea.
And your menu would have subway themes attached to it. You'd have a Sea Beach (duh!); a Brighton, a West End, a Culver, etc., etc.
It was better in the 50s-60s when Dubrows was open under the Brighton Station
I hope to be there very briefly in December.
I m ready to drive up real soon, and bring my wife, to China Town
But there are certain things one can enjoy only in New York. One of them is (the dwindling number) of kosher delicatessens.
The number of kosher restaurants in NYC (including delis) has been steadily increasing over the past ten or fifteen years.
(Unfortunately, I have yet to locate a replacement for Ratner's, which closed its doors permanently as a kosher dairy restaurant last summer. But Ratner's was never a deli.)
Half sour pickles.
Waste of time. You might as well eat a cucumber. Go for the full sours.
Was Ratners the one down on the lower East Side off of Delancy
On Delancey, between Norfolk and Suffolk. (ObSubway: Directly upstairs from the J/M/Z.)
It's reopened with a different and distinctly non-kosher menu.
It was the last of the kosher dairy restaurants of its style. Now just about every kosher dairy restaurant is either a cheap pizza joint or a fancy Italian restaurant.
Thanks I remember it now as a kid, My Dad used to love that place
I was there on its last day. I walked out with a menu. I would have loved one of the chairs (although I'll settle for a Redbird bench).
If you guys have access to a Grocery Chain Called Trade Joes. In the section of sauces, dressings. There is a Kosher Chineese Sauce and dressings called Oy-Vay
Bob, you don't keep kosher, not from the places you told me you ate at in S. Cal anyway :)
Los Angeles has very few true Kosher delis except in the Orthodox neighborhoods. Most of the delis are "Kosher Style", an oxymoron if ever there was one.
The best ones have Ham Sandwichs, served with Mayo, as well as Corned Beef and Mayo
Corned beef and Mayo!!!!!!!!
SARCRILGE!!!!!!!!
Nah ... HERE'S sacrilege ... my fave was ... ready? Salami on rye with mayo and a Cel-Ray ... still do it up here since we have a chain of supermarkets run by the Golub family called "Price Chopper" ... I can get the same strange look up here ... heh.
Slightly off topic but about 20 years ago I had to go to Ashville NC on Business from La Guardia. Had to take Piedmont from LGA to Roanoke, VA, wait an hour and transfer to the plane to Asheville. Since the flight to Roanoke was about 1 hour, I ate before hand, not expecting anything more than a soda.
They came around with a bagel and cream cheese with....SALAMI !!!!!!
There were two business men (from Ireland) on their way to a knitting mill in the south. They gorged their portions down. I asked if they wanted mine and they said "sure". The thought of salami on a defrosted, frozen bagel at 30,000 feet..........
Heh. I guess it was the Helms family's idea of Noo Yawk cuisine. On the trip back I'm sure it's grits and chicken. :)
No, the return local flight cuisine was peanuts and soda. The flight left Ashville (IIRC) 4:45PM, stopping in Winston-Salem, where Piedmont changed crews, we didn't change planes,then stopping at Lynchburg before finally touching down at LGA.
Heh. Yeah, that's a fine Helms lunch ... gotta boost those profits by cutting costs or they'll have to set up oil wells in coach.
Piedmont was soooooo successful that they are now part of US Airways.
Worse thing that ever happend to Piedmont and PSA on the Coast. All the lies we got out there from Usless Air. No changes. The 1st thing they did was take off PSA s new MD 80s and replace them with ol;d 737s, then stop the shuttle service between LA Area and SFO Area, and then LAS, and pulled out of Burbank. Hope they go under
Heh. I know ... they were the official Trans-dogpatch of upstate New York too ... Piedmont and Allegheny ... whatta country! :)
Just FTR: contrary to popular belief, mayonnaise (egg whites and vinegar) is not dairy! There's nothing wrong with eating it with salami (except that it probably tastes awful).
Oh I knew that it wasn't dairy - places that I ate at wouldn't ALLOW meat and dairy. But the LOOKS ... oy ... still, it was a VERY nice taste since back in the 50's, the deli mustard was rather hot and granular and the mayo was very different from Hellmans' ... that and a CelRay were my favorite lunch treat ... then again, I lived on a buttered roll and coke for breakfast and would woof down a street dog if it was a Sabrett's (prior to them moving to Joisey) ...
Yup, but it is served outside of NYC, Goyisha Kups
I like Kosher, but not Glatt. I think the Kosher Delis are better than the regular Delis where daily and meat are mixed. Where in L.A. can I find a KOSHER deli?
I'm not even Jewish, and I know this stuff!
<< Where in L.A. can I find a KOSHER deli? >>
Kearn's Market, 7300 Beverly Blvd., Los Angeles, 857-0302
Glatt Hut, 9303 W. Pico Blvd., 246-1900
Kearn's Market is not far from Fairfax? Near Farmer's Market?
I don't know. Why not call them and find out?
Yes, about a couple of blocks off of Fairfax, going toward LaBrea
Canter's Deli is a really nice place. It's at 419 N.Fairfax Av, 1 1/2 blocks north of Beverly Blvd.
Canter's isn't Kosher, however. They serve ham, and cheese with meat sandwiches. Canters is perhaps better known for its atmosphere (Fairfax district, 24-hour dining, crabby, crusty waitresses) than its food.
Several really good delis in L.A. (none of which are Kosher) are: Nate N' Al's in Beverly Hills, Art's In Studio City, and Brent's in Northridge. Honorable mention to Factor's in Pico-Roberston and Junior's at Pico-Westwood.
Crap, and it is Kosher Style, much better delis then Cantors, and over priced too
I like Kosher, but not Glatt.
Really? If the animal had one or two removable adhesions on the lung, you like it, but if it had no adhesions, you don't?
See this article from Jewish Action for a (somewhat technical) exposition on what "glatt kosher" really means.
In fact, it's very difficult in the U.S. to find non-glatt meat that's reliably kosher.
I think the Kosher Delis are better than the regular Delis where daily and meat are mixed.
So do I. Then again, I won't eat at the latter, so I suppose I'm biased.
Where in L.A. can I find a KOSHER deli?
I've never been there, so I can't make any recommendations, but check the Shamash Kosher Restaurant Database for a list.
How can anyone keep true to anything, never mind a kosher diet, in the Land of Hollywood, advertising, bleached blondes and surgically sculptured bodies?
(And I ought to know - I used to live there.)
:0)
salaam said that he did I think.
An intrepid man, that Salaam.
Not Kosher - Hallal. Islamic law has its own set of dietary laws, some of which are similar to Kosher, though not generally as restrictive.
subfan
Halla laws are very resticted. I have some Muslim Friends from Malaysia, and if the can t find a Halla store, they will buy some things in a Kosher Store, but only when desperate. They drive down from Danbury once a month to do their shopping in the city, with large chest of coolers in the summer for meat, dairy, etc.
I am not disputing that Hallal law is restrictive; however, I respectfully submit that Kosher law is more so. To whit: you mention that your Malaysian friends will buy Kosher when desperate; one who is strictly Kosher will _never_ buy non-Kosher, be it Hallal or not, in a case where human life is not at stake. Some additional differences are the types of meat and seafood that are permissable under the two systems; while Kosher dietary law restricts one to animals that both have split hooves and chew their cud, and to fish with both fins and scales, Hallal laws do not have these restrictions; both shellfish and camel are part of the traditional Islamic middle eastern diet.
I think I've gone far enough off-topic with this thread; back to the trains, now.
subfan
That's not at all unusual for those of us who keep kosher who live nowhere near a large Jewish community. When I lived in central Illinois, the nearest source for kosher meat was 2-3 hours away in the Chicago area. Since prices there are high, quality is pretty low, and I rarely had other reason to be in Chicago, I usually stocked up on my trips to New York -- I'd stop on Avenue M on my way out of town and fill up a cooler (or the trunk, in winter) with meat.
In Hollyweird? No Delis there, just outside on Fairfax, but that was not Hollyweird
My wife and I are partial to Ben's in Bayside. It is a chain, however, but pretty good.
It's not dairy, though, is it? There are many kosher meat restaurants scattered about the city. If you're in the area of Ratner's, head right on over to the Grand Deli at Grand and Clinton.
ObTransit: There's a very large cluster within a few blocks of the 72nd Street station. I suspect this is due primarily to the location's status as a major transit hub -- it's an express stop and a major bus transfer point (M5, M7, M11, M57, M72, M104) -- as the bulk of the area's Jewish population is in the 80's and 90's (streets, not ages).
as the bulk of the area's Jewish population is in the 80's and 90's (streets, not ages).
I'd certainly hope so :-)
You are correct; it is not.
Increasing? Where are the kosher delis increasing? If anything, I only see fewer and fewer kosher delis? Where are they all opening up? Certainly not in the Bronx.
No, not in the Bronx, unfortunately. I know most of the Upper West Side scene (because that's where I live), but I'll grant you that, although every few months another restaurant opens, closings are not uncommon either. Other hotspots seem to be midtown Manhattan (all over), Flatbush (the Jewish version, centered around the Avenue J and Avenue M stops on the Q), and Boro Park.
They're not all delis, specifically, but at least half of the meat restaurants will gladly serve you a pastrami on rye with a Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray.
See the Shamash Kosher Restaurant Database.
Perhaps the number of Kosher restaurants is increasing, but the traditional "delis" that I grew up with are almost gone. The Hebrew Nationals, Zions, etc., are not "kosher enough" for the new, more religious populace of places like Avenue J, and have closed up.
My favorite name for a kosher restaurant was that of the first kosher Chinese restaurant in Brooklyn....Shang-Chai!
Anyway, I ate at Ratner's once. I didn't realize what kind of restaurant it was, so I ordered a "chopped liver" sandwich, which I later learned was primarily smashed string beans.
My Dad ate there the night of the Great Blackout of 1965. He was fortunate to be on a CI bound D train in Delancey Street station with the doors open. The train was emptied, he went upstairs, and there it was.
My favorite name for a kosher restaurant was that of the first kosher Chinese restaurant in Brooklyn....Shang-Chai!
I worked at Chaap-a-Nosh for 6 years in high school and college (Ave M/Elm Ave/East 15th St, Brooklyn, right across from the Ave M Brighton Line station).
--Mark
Mark: I'll tell you what else is gone. Candy stores with soda fountains. They are almost extinct, a shame because I remember when there seemed to be one every three or four blocks. Most that I knew of were Jewish owned, and perhaps the fact so many Jews have left New York might be reason why candy stores have gone by the boards as well. I'm told there are still two around, one in Bay Ridge and one in Manhattan near 84th Street. If any one has those addresses, please let me know. I promise the next time I'm in New York I will frequent those places before I even go to Coney Island to ride the Cyclone. And those of you who know me know what kind of a sacrifice that would be.
I still would consider the place we went on Kings Hwy a candy Store, it just did not have a place to sit, they still had the fountain, and egg creams
Yes there was a small fountain. I guess that is a hell of a lot better than other places I saw in New York that passed for candy stores.
We finally agree on 2 things in todays Post, The Fountain on Kings Hwy and the N on the Bridge
Hey #1 Brighton Express Bob: We're agreeing on things and that might just ruin Steve8AVEXP's day. He just get thrilled when we go at it. Hell, he thinks we should have our own radio show. How are we going to handle him on this?
Just wait and see, what do you expect from some one who likes the A Train, and is in the dark tunnel, until it gets into X BMT territory, and you have to wait over 20 minutes at Howard Beach during mid day for a train to come
I'll have to save that one to use against him if he ever decides to turn on us.
I've never had to wait for an A at Howard Beach, mainly because I've never had to board from there. Now, waiting for a train of R-38s is another story.
Hey, I don't mind if you two agree on matters once in a while. Variety is the spice of life, after all.
Fred I think that mile high smog in Denver is getting to Steve
The Brown Cloud isn't as bad as it used to be. Yesterday was gorgeous when Anon_e_mouse and I took to the rails on our light rail line.
WHERE? WHERE?
On the South Side of the Highway, the one closest to 16th, next to Rainbow Shop. Cost $1.50 but worth it, my mouth had a Organism it was so good.
An organism? Micro or macro?:-)
BOTH
There was a candy store of sorts on Havemeyer St. in Williamsburg, up the street from my Saturday School, in the late 60s. I'd go there for baseball cards back when you'd get a stick of gum with them.
I've been in that place. Any time we had to go and pick up sets for repair from Bressner's (I worked a shop out on Beverley and Nostrand at the time) I'd stop in there ...
This store was on the southwest corner of N. 6th and Havemeyer Streets, up the block from Annunciation Church and school. I'd go in there and it would reek of cigarette smoke. The proprietor was missing most of his teeth and always had a handful of change. He'd never ring up sales, you'd pay him and he'd give you your change right out of his hand.
Yep ... that sounds right. Heypaul in the pre-propane days. Can't ya just picture it? :)
Used to be one such luncheonette near my house on Flatlands Ave between E 35 and E 36th Streets. Soda fountain and all. Closed in 1988. It became a butcher, now I don't know what it is.
--Mark
Thanks for the listing, next week I find Kosher in the DC Area
From what I know, and I admit it is not as much as you residing New Yorkers, the large Jewish sections of the Bronx are a thing of the past. The north Bronx along the #4 line near Woodlawn is still Jewish I believe, but no other areas so far as I know. Brooklyn is different because of the movement by the thousands of Russian Jews into that borough from Russia and the Ukraine. They pick Brooklyn over the Bronx. Good choice. It's closer to the beach and a little cooler in summer. But then again, my Italian piasans have also been leaving the Bronx. I'm not even sure there is still an Italian section up there as there once was. The Jews, Irish, Poles and Italians are becoming an endangered species in New York City. Hard to believe.
There are still Italian neighborhoods in the Bronx.
However Little Italy is nothing more than two blocks in the middle of Chinatown.
He knows about Little Italy, we had dinner there when we were in NY last Month, and Chinatown has spread to what was known as the Lower East Side, and is now the largest Chinatown outside of Asia, passing San Francisco and Vancouver
Someone told me last month that Little Italy was four blocks by three blocks, whatever that means. I do know it has been shrinking a lot since I first returned there in 1974.
According to the maps, it is but in reality?
I don't think many Jews remain along the 4, at either end. Few Jews live on the Grand Concourse anymore.
The largest Jewish concentration in the Bronx is in Riverdale, west of the 1/9.
There is also a community near the east end of Pelham Parkway. A few months ago, when I rode the 6 up to the top, I was a bit surprised to find my car occupied by many apparently observant Jews, including the T/O himeself.
But the Bronx lost most of its Jews to the suburbs many decades ago, and now that the city's become popular again, they're moving back elsewhere.
Thanks for the listing.
WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THIS?
Kosher delis and the residing of Jews in NYC???
Someone's valuable piece of history???
Certainly not related AT ALL to the SUBWAY, as I heard from various SubTalkers they'd be interested in discussing the SUBWAY, and not this TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC THREAD.
And don't say that kosher delis can be located NEXT to or INSIDE a subway station. I don't care. It has NOTHING to do with the SUBWAY,
and IF SuBTALKERS want to talk about the SUBWAY, WHY DON'T WE TALK ABOUT THE SUBWAY, AND NOT SOME OFF-TOPIC JUNK LIKE WE'RE STARTING HERE. There are actually SEVERAL OUT-OF-HAND THREADS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH "The Broadway line = ONE BIG MESS."
AND YOU'RE LUCKY THAT DAVID DOESN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS SINCE HE HASN'T DELETED IT YET. AROUND 3/4 OF ALL THE POSTINGS OF THIS THREAD MUST BE USELESS STUFF. YOU KNOW, PROBABLY IF ONE SUBTALKER WAS AN EDITOR OF A MAJOR NEWSPAPER, WHY DON'T WE PUT ALL OUR IDEAS THERE, INSTEAD OF CHATTING USELESSLY AND COMPLAINING ABOUT ALL OUR PERSONAL ISSUES OF THE MTA'S OPERATION OF THE NYC SUBWAY HERE IN A PRIVATE WEBSITE OF SUBTALK???!?
IF YOU WANT YOUR COMPLAINTS ANSWERED, ADDRESS THE MTA ABOUT IT, AND DON'T GOGGLE AND SHOUT ABOUT IT HERE. THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT IF YOU DON'T GO.
Think before you post something, PLEASE!
/: (
Railfan Pete.
Your caps lock key is stuck again.
Do you want me to put it in bold instead?
Railfan Pete.
No. Emphasize a word here or there, if necessary, preferably in italics. Emphasizing entire paragraphs is just annoying.
OK, but bear in mind that groups of out-of-hand, off-topic postings bug me more than a couple of paragraphs in capital letters.
... .. .
Railfan Pete.
Why don't you just not read the off topic post. They did all start out on topic.
The fact is, if I haven't read the off-topic posts, I wouldn't have started this posting about the junky and trashy ones.
Too many KOSHER DELIS and JEWS LIVING ON THE STREETS OF NYC.
PEOPLE'S HISTORIES AND ROTATING OFFICE CHAIRS.
There is, in fact, MUCH MORE than this, but I'm not going to waste my valuable time reading them when IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBWAY.
Which of them do you choose?
Railfan Pete.
"Too many KOSHER DELIS and JEWS LIVING ON THE STREETS OF NYC."
THANK YOU FOR PROVING THAT YOU ARE THE ONLY ANTI-SEMITIC POSTER ON THIS BOARD.
NO GO BACK INTO YOUR HOLE.
THANK YOU
HEY. I WOULDN'T POST THESE SUBJECTS IF IT WEREN'T DISCUSSED IN THESE OFF-TOPIC POSTS.
DAND124? WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING?
Let me get this straight you are upset about off topic post so what do you do ask me an off topic question. So it is ok for you to be off topic but it is not if anyone else is off topic.
BTW: MY life is not the business of anyone on this board because unless I want it to be. And Right now I don't
Have fun, because I'm not going to be around, as the year grows on and more work will need to be done, and not just sitting at a computer, reading useless off-topic posts to waste my useful time.
See ya later. (I'll still be somewhat around).
Railfan Pete.
"See ya later. (I'll still be somewhat around). "
What a shame I though you were going to go away all together.
SINCE YOU DON"T SEEM TO GIVE AN INSIGHT TO ANY TYPE OF POSTING, WHY ARE YOU EVEN HAVING AN ARGUMENT WITH ME?
AND I Don't want to waste postings for this pointless argument which won't solve anything.
I don't want to insult Dand124, but the discussion with you seems to be out of some weird scatophilic tendencies.
hehe....lol,,,hehe.....
This is truly a classic post. "Scatophilic tendencies". Great post.
So you will still be "somewhat around"? That's the worst news yet. Why not do us all a favor and take a hike. And take your thought police friend subwaysurf with you.
Shut up. I'm sick of off-topic posts. And I recall reading "He's admitted that he hasn't read the off-topic posts.."
Stupidity lies within him. I JUST POSTED that IF I haven't read the off-topic posts, then I wouldn't be starting an argument about this whole thing.
Good thing David has this thread Broken up now.
At least I'm not the one sitting at the computer all day without a life posting messages and having imaginary friends on this board and what not.
Railfan Pete.
Well #4 Sea Beach Fred has been on this board way longer than you, also IMO his contributions are more valuable than yours. Fortunately, as I gather you'll be preoccupied by the school, thank god.
Arti
Arti: He is a freshman in high school, so I've decided to go easy. He is young and he will learn as we all do. Thanks for your support. Let's see if we can put all this behind us. I written him to say I want this bile to end.
>>> At least I'm not the one sitting at the computer all day without a life posting messages and having imaginary friends on this board <<<
I doubt that you need worry about having friends, imaginary or not, on this board for quite some time. :-)
Tom
Not to worry, boy soon discover frog and he'll be too busy pulling on that instead of us. :)
""Kosher Dogs at Penn station IN NEWARK !! ""
remember that string of subtalk threads ??? ........lol !!!
Salaam do you only eat kosher food or do you go by other guidelines?
as long as i can avoid pork content in any food that i eat ! ( I do need to leave a lot of fattening foods alone ) ....lol !!!
oh well i will get a lot of walking shooting video & digital stills in nyc this late october !!! ........lol !!!
Salaamallah, now don't forget. You promised to shoot the Sea Beach. Please remember to do so----especially the Brooklyn end after 59th Street when it comes out of the tunnel.
yes sir !! the { N } train !! right ?? ..............
When you shoot the N Train, use a M 1 Abrams Tank and put it out of its misery
You're very funny pal, but remember looks aren't everything. Guess what? We got a new Golden Retriever last evening. She was born on the 4th of July and we named her Britteny.
I am jealous, I saw a 8 week old Golden Today, and I was so upset. Judy does not want another dog. We still have Goldie, but we miss Yogi.
So does Boo-boo.:-)
wooooooooo !! ............lol !!!
Oh no! is the N train broke folks ?? .......... clue me in on this please? ..........!
correction: sorry about the post before this one :)
Oh no! is the N train broke folks ?? .......... clue me in on this please? ..........!
NOOOOOOO... don't make me take the W to get to school... or I'll just stay home alltogether.
Its been broke for years
lol, how much more "broke" can it get?
Conestoga wagons and steam, silly. :)
Why would you want to put the M 1 Abrams Tank out of its misery? :)
--Mark
Im talking about shooting the N Train with a M1 Abrams
oh no no weapons just my sonytr416 camcorder with 0.4. light lux shooting !!.......lol !!
OK!!!!!! Go to it and have a blast. I await hearing about what happened.
Allow yourself enough extra time to do the shooting. Remember the N is a/k/a the "Never" a/k/a the Slow Beach Local.
I never thought there was any runby video to take along the Sea Beach's open cut. What might you suggest would be an interesting place to take runbys? You can't get close enough to the tunnel portal to take trains emerging from it, for instance ....
--Mark
Yeah, nd you can just shutup you...racist anti semite pusbucket
oh man !!!.... go ride a PATH train to the penn station at newark !! & ...order your KOSHER DOGS & enjoy yourself !!!!
lol !!!
It started off by taking the Q to Kings Highway, getting off having a egg cream, then Adelmans and getting back on the Q, if you read the first few topics. If a topic does not interest you, avoid it.
WHAT an asshole
Peace,
ANDEE
He is NOT the only ANTI-semetic poster on this board Go look at sallamm
PEACE,
ANDEE
Salamm? Isn't that the guy from LA? I never knew him to be an anti-semite. Everyone should leave their racial hatred aside, and join my movement. The Anti-TA coalition.
"Salamm? Isn't that the guy from LA? I never knew him to be an anti-semite. Everyone should leave their racial hatred aside, and join my movement. The Anti-TA coalition."
Would you want to by a car knowing that the guy working the assembly line hated the company?
Would you want to fly on a plane knowing that the mechanic who serviced it, hated the airline?
Would you want to be served by a waiter who hated the restaurant and/or the owner.
Well here we have a person who can't wait to be called to be a train operator. Would you hire him?
Dand124: Because he is too damn stupid to know that. He'd rather fulminate about things he has no control over.
Now, if you want to make it subway relevant, I will. Three weeks ago the managers of Concourse Shop were planning a March of Dimes Fund Raiser. We decided to do it over lunch. Since 8 people were planning the event, we decided to bring in Hot Kosher pastrami, knishes, and kosher Dill pickels. Do you know how hard that is to find in the upper west Bronx? Oh yeah, an assortment of Dr. Browns was also on hand.
Pete, anything that touches the change in demographics of NY City is related to the subways in some way or another. We've talked about White Castle, Needicks, Jahns, Pathmark, Walmart and dozens of other businesses here over the past year without so much as a complaint. I wonder why when the discussion turns to KOSHER food, it offends you so much. I felt no need to participate up until now. A word of advice: If the subject matter bothers you - skip the thread.
Hey Dude, you are not the first to make that suggestion to him, and if he cannot see that the topics talked about all relate to the city and the subway in some form or another he just might be a little too dense to be reasoned with. Maybe he should just chill out and leave us for awhile.
Um, #4 Sea Beach Fred, you seem to be the one with the MOST RESPONSES on caring and uplifting your fellow SubTalkers EXCEPT ME, and YOU sit at the computer ALL DAY TRYING to look for this ARGUMENT thread.
AND AT EVERY POST SOMEONE PUTS ME DOWN, YOU'RE RESPONSE ALWAYS FOLLOWS AFTER IT. I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY OTHER SUBTALKER AS MINDLESS AS YOU ARE TRYING TO DO THAT.
Why don't you do something smarter for your life for a change?
Railfan Pete.
FIRST RULE OF HOLES:
WHEN YOU ARE IN ONE - STOP DIGGING!
Pete, stop your lame defense of an indefensible position. Admit you were wrong and rejoin humanity.
Pete, you're a freshman, mercy upon you I shall have. Sea Beach Fred and I have had our spats, albeit a LOOOOOOOOOONG time ago, but he is a valuable contributor to SubTalk and a generally nice guy. I don't know if you've apologized yet or this whole thing has just blown over, but a word of advice; don't take the attitude you have here to High School. You'll get beat up, disliked, and be the boy everyone likes to talk about, and I don't mean in the "he's cute" kind of way either. I mean the "ugh, here HE comes" type of way.
Disclaimer: NO, I have NOT experienced the attitude discussed in this post!
Metro=Houston. Nice post. I do wish I had known that he is only a freshman in high school. I would have handled him better. Sometimes I do get my dander up when I hear things that I deem to be unfair and prejudicial. However, being so young, he has a lot to learn and I will try to throw out the olive branch to him after I post a newer and more positive response to him. Thanks. I value your comradship on this site.
I told you last year he was only a kid, but he is younger then we thought. Hope he keeps quiet in HS or he will be sorry
Railfan Pete wasn't around a year ago, we were all the better for it.
I assume this is where you thought he was talking about me. Your animosity for me shows. I resent being called "just" anything.
As for treating Railfan Pete a certain way because he is young, that goes against everything I believe in. His age shouldn't make him any less responsible for what he says.
But Pig, it IS my responsibility to act like an adult in these things. I would have no qualms is berating him for what he said if he was in his thirties, forties, etc, but I can remember when I was a a freshman in high school. I was so wet behind the ears I didn't know back from front. I will cut him a little slack. I think it is the fair thing to do. Metro-Houston clued me in about his age. I only wish I knew a few days ago.
He also should remember he is dealing with so called Mature Adults, some like Fred who are old enough to be his Grandpa
He also should remember he is dealing with so called Mature Adults, some like Fred who are old enough to be his Grandpa
The kind of people he deals with should not affect how he acts. It's just as wrong when someone disrespects somebody older or younger than oneself.
We should also remember that RF Pete is speaking the party line for many inner city HS students.
I will do something smarter in my life. I will completely shine you on because you've acted like a moron and I'm almost as much as fault for reading and responding to your assinine posts. Now keep your promise and split for awhile.
Metro-Houston: On second thought, let me clear this up by holding out the olive branch to you. I didn't know you were a freshman in high school. I have a class with many freshman in it and I do know that as an adult we h ave to set a good example. From now on, let's try to get along in a positive manner. I hope to hear from you that we can now get on and try to mend our fences.
I thought you were talking about Pigs Sorry
When did you think he was talking about me?
I Came in late was off Line Saturday, and your usual self sounded like him
Metro-Houston: OOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSS, I meant railfan Pete. See that is what old age does for you. It was past my bedtime when I got on last night. I should have waited until today. Sorry for the mixup. No, we need no olive branches. We settled our differences over a year ago and I consider you a trusted colleague on this site.
Pete, Sea Beach is a true gentleman, I highly doubt he was 'starting in' with you. A lot of us on this board are very crazed fanatics with electric heavy rail, and that's what we try to stay glued to.
Gentleman, cough cough, choke, barf, choke, ha ha ha
Of course, if the D train was still running to Brooklyn, you could have had a direct service for take out from Adelman's.
Actually, we found a pretty good, albiet small Kosher deli at 231 St & B'Way. Not as convenient as the one that used to be on Gun Hill Rd. & Jerome but the food was very satisfactory.....
Hmmm....I'll have to remember that. Since it's a kosher deli I assume it one of those places at which the corn beef is served with mustard and not....ugh....mayonnaise. Near line 1/9, I gather.
So he has 2 Qs to choose from
So we no longer have to mind our Ds and Qs.
Just Q Diamonds and Circles
Bear in mind that we have to tolerate your somewhat on-topic but ignorant posts.
Arti
Dave, who is that guy? Tell him to dry up and blow away. If Dave gives us the word we may be going too far we can tuck in our horns and go from there. But we don't need some thought police character telling what we ought to do or not do. No one is forcing him to read these posts, and if three-fourths of the Subtalkers are involved and enjoying each other enough to answer one another, then who the hell is he to start telling all of us what to do? Somebody ought to clue that guy in quickly.
Think before you post something, PLEASE!
Uhh... yeah... thanks for the advice.
I was addressing this to those who all took part in those junky, preposterous, off-topic postings within this thread (and others if any arise), which just didn't have anything to do with the SUBWAY.
I am looking with skepticism as to why the webmaster keeps this out-of-hand thread which is 3/4 OFF-TOPIC postings on SubTalk.
This wasn't meant for GENERAL, on-topic postings.
If this clears it up for you...
Railfan Pete,
I am looking with skepticism as to why the webmaster keeps this out of-hand thread which is 3/4 OFF-TOPIC postings on SubTalk.
Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware that you were all of a sudden paying my salary to baby sit Subtalk full time.
It was a surprise to me too Dave. If you decide something is way off topic and decide to call a halt to it, then you will have no problem with any of us. We appreciate what you have provided for us. However, it really frosts me when someone johnny come lately starts telling us what goes and doesn't. I hope your reply to him clears this matter up once and for all.
Um, and THIS relates to the subway, how? It hasn't helped you any at all, just makes you sound like a racist asshole. But, perhaps that's just MY opinion. Thousands of off-topic subjects including flaming and politics, yet, you target this one? Seems you've been reading up on Mein Kampf lately.
LIKE I said a MILLION times regarding this:
I AM NOT BEING RACIST! Would you like me to POST THE ACTUAL postings which I have come across regarding what I have posted? They EXACTLY have it "titled" as Jews in NYC, and where they live.
So don't call me a racist. Why don't you pull your plug and go after the real SubTalker who started the TALK ABOUT JEWS RESIDING IN NYC??!!?!?
Railfan Pete.
"Would you like me to POST THE ACTUAL postings which I have come across regarding what I have posted?"
Ok I will in post number 261054 you said "Too many KOSHER DELIS and JEWS LIVING ON THE STREETS OF NYC."
YOU DIDN'T SAY YOU WERE UPSET AT THE NUMBER OF POSTING ABOUT JEW AND KOSHER DELIES YOU SAID YOU THOUGHT THERE WERE "Too many KOSHER DELIS and JEWS LIVING ON THE STREETS OF NYC."
now defend what you said.
Ancient proverb:
When one person calls you a jackass - ignore them!
When two call you a jackass - assume it's a coincidence!
When they all call you a jackass - it's time to look for a saddle.
My friend, I hope you ain't alergic to leather....
Dude: I've said before, and I'll say it again. Sir, you are a work of art. Well done.
I like reading about Jews living in New York City. What of it? It is none of your damn business anyway. To wit, when I was a kid in New York, just about all of the candy stores were owned by Jews. And we spent some great moments in these places. Another thing. Jews have played a big part in the history of 20th Century New York, so if we want to learn about it by reading these posts we will. As for the Jewish Delis. I remember fondly Ort's of Long Island City where we got the greatest cold cuts and pastrami in the world. These are fond memories for us, so don't go raining on my parade because you will get Sea Beach Fred really pissed off. In another words, cool it.
If you get Sea Beach Fred really pissed off... I'll have to help him
Thank you my good blood brother. Today is another day and I've cooled off a little since last night, but I have to admit that guy really got me going.
Probably could quote it paragraph for paragraph. Right Adolf?
When I last checked, this was a PRIVATE board. That means that posts are removed AT THE DISCRETION OF THE HOST. When last I checked, you ARE NOT the host of this website. If people want to have a discussion about Kosher delis, Politics or "The Lakers win Again", that's fine. You DO NOT have to read it. And as long as D. Pirmann allows it, you have to suck it up and deal with it. Again, DON'T read the damn post if you know that it's off-topic. When people post stuff about Amtrak, or MARTA, you know what I do? I IGNORE IT! Why? Because that stuff really doesn't interest me. But it's fine if OTHER PEOPLE want to discuss it.
But you haven't done that. Matter-of-fact, out of all the off-topic threads, you've payed attention to this one specifically. In your "To BMT Road Dogg" post you addressed it. Now, you get 'aggie' again because something is about Kosher delis. I haven't done this in a while, but you deserve it:
What the fuck is your problem?
I'm not Jewish. I have no Jewish friends. Hell, I've never set foot in a Kosher deli. But I am alarmed at your apparent anger toward this particular off-topic thread. Further your actions have been dubbed as 'racist' and 'anti-semitic' by a number of posters. You have not denied it, or even show anything to say you aren't a racist. Before you posted on this site, a thread went on for a whole weekend. A poster named 'John' posted something that others thought was racist. But, John always defended himself, and said he was not racist. You haven't done that.
I'm not calling you a racist. I don't know you. But, I don't care for this racist bull you have put here.
Further your actions have been dubbed as 'racist' and 'anti-semitic' by a number of posters.
um, I was just noting what these so-called SUBTALKERS have been POSTING!!! SO DON'T CALL ME A RACIST YOU STUPID NUT!
/: (
Railfan Pete.
Perhaps you didn't realize something.
Look at the sentence of mine that you copied. I said that: OTHER POSTERS had called you racist and anti-semitic, and that you didn't deny these claims, and you STILL haven't. Hence, you should not refer to me as a 'stupid nut', since I explicitly said at the end of my post that I DIDN'T KNOW YOU AND WOULD NOT CALL YOU RACIST
...Stupid nut..... the nerve of some people......
J: Aren't you smart enough to know that you can't deal with moronslike that? I'm a little short in that department, too, I'm afraid because I have tried to deal with him as well. But when you come down to it, trying to reason with him is like trying to reason with the bathroom sink.
Fred, I think we're all being a bit too harsh with Pete. No one, including pete, is totally useless. If nothing else, they can always serve as a poor example. Mercifully, he's spared us the tirade about the Koreans.
You got it Dude, I'll make a note.
I think the real reason why Railfan Pete is annoyed is because those posters didn't bother to change the Subject. It would be a great courtesy for all of us if we update the Subject field periodically even when discussing non-transit related stuff....
Who cares? He even stated that he didn't read the "junk" messages. He's just an angry hormonal teen. I remeber when I was angry and hormonal. Well, I was more like nervous and hormonal, but that's a whole different off-topic thread.
Point was, he knew DAYS ago that it was off-topic. He could have just steered away from it.
I think we'd all be better served if each of us didn't try to interpret what's in others minds. He changed the subject line himself and then kept posting. i don't know what was in his heart but the tone of his posts became decidedly anti-semetic.
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!!!
What the hell are you getting all bent out of shape for? Huh? If you got a problem with something you're reading on this message board, maybe you shouldn't be reading it. Furthermore NOBODY'S complaining about their personal issues in this thread! I think you're the one who seems to be having personal issues if you seem to feel the need to attack me for wanting to find out where there are Kosher delis in the city. I happen to like corn beef and pastrami on rye and I'm sooooooo sorry that annoys you! Maybe I want to find out where the good delis are and find out which subway line goes there. There are people who live elsewhere in the city and they know. Gee, I'm sooooo sorry you have a problem with that! This is one topic that is not entirely off-topic and is NOT harrassing in any way, shape or from. Well excuuuuuuuse me for trying to find something out! Sorry it bothers you so damn much!
mmmmmmmmm. Pastrami on rye. lol!!!!
(sorry. Couldn't resist.)
Don't mind Petey boy. Being a homeless hermit crab is a terrible thing...
What about brisket? I sure have enjoyed Adelman's (E. 19th and Kings Highway, Midwood, Brooklyn). Take Q express, walk east 4 short blocks.
I believe the whole thing got started by me and Brighton Beach Bob. Last month we took a one day trip to New York from his home in Virginia and he wanted to show me the old neighborhood of his youth. We got off the Q at King's Highway, he had an egg cream, and after that we went to Adelman's where he got some real good brisket to take home with him. I remarked how impressed I was with the place, but the emphasis was both on the deli and its proximity to the Brighton. Both gave the neighborhood its unique appeal. That is where the stuff about Jewish Delis got going.=====Who the hell does railfan Pete think he is trying to spoil what has become a very interesting post? Just shut up and go about your business of reading Mein Kampf because I can see a little anti-Semetism is some of your garbled dislogue.
Yeah, you guys started it and I was perhaps the first one to jump in and continue it. What was interesting is that for once the three of us agreed on something 100%. Usually, I side with your pal #1 Brighton Exp Bob. Me, I'm from the Q Brightliner Brighton Express era, ten years younger than you. Anyway, my next visit to the big city will probably be in December. Of course, my first priorities for visiting are the candy store at the south end of the Kings Highway Station for an egg cream and then to Adelman's, with a walk around the Midwood area stacked in between.
--Harry
Let me know and maybe I will join you, Hey Paul still lives in the neighborhood
That would be a kick. I'm envious already because I wish I could be there. BTW, I would have had an egg cream myself but I was so full from a spaghetti-seafood dinner in Little Italy that I didn't have room for even another crumb.
Maybe next time, a egg cream and deli festival on Kings Highway Either Q gets you there with in 3 blocks, to keep it on topic.
The company bar whipped up an interesting mixed drink that almost brought me back to the Bronx ... had a few of them on Friday and survived, so I'll pass it along - they called it an "egg cream" ... a shot of Creme de Cacao and fill it up with cream soda ... *almost* tastes like the real thing (with a kick) ...
Somebody gave me this recipe and it is good, if you can t get seltzer, try adding the syrup and milk to cream soda. Kind of a chocolate-Vanilla Egg Cream Mixed.
We were all sucking them down last Friday in the company bar and two of the others were ex-NYC folks as well. After the third drink, most of us were on the floor Stooges style, running in circles going "Woowoowoowoo" ... highly recommended. :)
At the moment, it looks like I there around lunch time on Wednesday, December 12.
Keep me posted, I am off from 3PM Mon until 3PM Thur and that seems like a good excuse for coming up, but things can change in 3 months
I'll keep you posted. I'm looking forward to it.
Me, too ... my folks still live there (E 35th & Kngs Highway)
--Mark
sounds good
Yeah Slow Bunch Fred
Live on Subtalk, it's the Bob and Fred Show!:-)
Anything and everything is open for debate including Brighton vs Sea Beach, Conservative vs Liberal, Yankees vs Mets, the Bronx vs Brooklyn, riding the Cyclone vs watching it, you name it.
Have you two ever thought about having a radio talk show?:-)
Triplexes on the Brighton Express
BMT standards on the Coney Island Express nonstop on the Sea Beach
Get us an agent and we're on our way. You know we couldn't do any worse than some of the duos I've heard of late. Maybe we could be the new Hannity and Colmes.
We've got a couple of personalities in Denver who have had a morning show for just over a decade now. They did a remote broadcast from Boston last week, as a matter of fact.
As I write this, there is another Denver radio personality who is attempting to sit in every single seat in our new football stadium, Invesco Field at Mile High, 76,125 in all. He sat in every seat in the old Mile High Stadium 21 years ago. It's all for a good cause, to raise money for the American Cancer Society.
How is that true? If you're at Dekalb and you want to go to Stillwell, the N can shave 10 minutes off the commute compared to taking a Brighton local. I don't know about weekends when the N goes local, but I know this is true for midday regardless of you taking a Q or Q diamond.
I can't imagine that the vast majority of passengers to Coney Island come out of DeKalb Avenue.
Besides, beaches are overrated. If I wanted to swim, I'd go to a pool (no sand). If I wanted waves, I'd live with sand, but go to Rockaway. If I wanted to cool off, I'd stay home. If the power was out or the air conditioner broken, then I'd go to a mall or a movie or just ride or drive around. Staying on the subway is a better way of cooling off then going out to the beach to sit below the scorching sun.
If you are at DeKalb Avenue, the fastest way to Coney Island is to take the Q-diamond to Brighton Beach. If you only want the beach (and not an amusement park or a hot dog), then there is no point of riding beyond Brighton Beach.
Why settle for half a loaf. The beach and sand on one hand, a hot dog at Nathans and a ride on the Cyclone. What an afternoon. Stop being a soil sport Pig. Get with the program.
Hey, Fred, are you sure you never took the Coney Island Express aka Franklin-Nassau Special when it still ran?
Pardon my ignorance Steve but I'm not sure what it was. Explain the line to me and I can tell you.
You should have read the many other posts on this board, Fred, regarding what was the only Sea Beach Express ever to run, except for the short-lived NX. And it ran for many years during the summer months. Of course, that same train was also the Brighton-Franklin Express.
The Coney Island Express aka Franklin-Nassau Special ran on "sunny summer Sundays" up until the early 50s. It started at Chambers St., crossed the Manhattan Bridge on the south side tracks, ran express down 4th Ave. (not sure if it skipped Dekalb and Myrtle, probably did), and nonstop between 59th St. and Stillwell Ave. using the express tracks on the Sea Beach. From Stillwell Ave. it continued up the Brighton line and terminated at Franklin Ave. and Fulton St. BMT standards were used for the most part; such a train had a round white marker on the right hand pantograph gate of the first car.
Now I know of it. No I didn't ride it. Did not like the standards at all. It reminded me of the 4th Avenue Local which I hated all to hell. I did see that train running on the express tracks now that you have filled me in. I remember asking my dad what that ugly train was doing on those tracks. Remember, to me those tracks on the Sea Beach line were for Triplexes.
I realize that you didn't care for the BMT "Standards" but I like them for their quaint though not special appearance and they seemed to have had an airy feel when the all of the windows were open. I would have loved to have ridden them on the Brighton Line on a warm late spring day to Coney Island running on the express tracks and you get the nice fresh breeze coming in through the windows including the railfan window which knowing me I would have been standing right in front of it if I could.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
They were great, but I favored the Triplex Also
Several things about the BMT standards were turnoffs to me. The biggest was their lack of end signs, something I had gotten used to seeing by the time I first saw the standards. Another was the three sets of doors per side when I had gotten used to seeing four on the R units on the IND and BMT. Thirdly, I thought they looked just plain ugly. By the summer of 1967, the BMT to me meant R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s. It meant streaking along Broadway on an N of nice, shiny R-32s. Above all, it meant seeing a letter and destination sign as the train pulled in. When we transferred from the IND to the Canarsie at 14th St. and 8th Ave. for the first time on September 23, 1967, my spirits were initially buoyed by the "To BMT" signs pointing to the stairs to the Canarsie line. Then I saw a train of BMT standards sitting there, and I was crushed. Not those ugly cars again. PFUI!! Luckily, since our regular Saturday commute included a ride on the A at my insistence, it sort of balanced things out.
You never rode them in their prime
I would go to Coney Island for a hot dog and a ride. I'll leave the beach and sand for when I die and go to hell.
You're not going to hell. I'd put in a good word for you with the man upstairs but I'm not too sure how I stand with him myself so I can't do it. But you could put in a good word for yourself.
Then assuming that your advice works, I'll never get to the beach.
also cyclones baseball
That is not true. I didn't mean going to the Beach or getting a hot dog. I meant coming home from school at Dekalb Ave, my friend has to go to CI. I've taken the Brighton Local straight to CI, the Brighton Express to Brighton Beach and transferred to a local or transferred at Sheepshead Bay because if you go to Brighton, there's no guarantee that you'll be on the CI bound tracks and then from Stillwell, the N back. We take the N as well and he goes all the way to CI. The N is the faster way of going to Stillwell than a Brighton line if at Dekalb... but if at Canal, then it's a different story.
The W is the fastest train to Coney Island, most people going to Coney Island do NOT come from DeKalb Avenue. Your friend is in a minority.
He is not black nor white... don't worry about it... and I didn't say that most people who go to CI come from Dekalb. I'm just point out the fastest route during midday/rush hour.
Look at the schedueles The W does not stop at DeKalb
The fastest train -- from where?
Not from DeKalb -- you've conceded that. Not from Whitehall, either, I'm sure. Probably not from 8th, since that transfer at Canal is a pain.
And haven't you ever heard of changing at DeKalb or Pacific? Take a Q to DeKalb and change to the N there. Or take a W over the bridge and change at Pacific if you happened to spy an N stopped at DeKalb. On weekends, the W isn't even a contender unless one happens to be waiting at Pacific when your local pulls in, and even then it's probably faster to transfer back to an N if one happens to be waiting at 36th.
I'm not Fred but I do think the Sea Beach is the most enjoyable of the four routes to Coney Island.
You don't have to be Fred to like Sea Beach... look at me... :)
Thanks Dave. I owe you one. Or two or ten.
Not from DeKalb -- you've conceded that. Not from Whitehall, either, I'm sure. Probably not from 8th, since that transfer at Canal is a pain.
The N is also not the fastest choice out of the Bronx. What does that prove?
And haven't you ever heard of changing at DeKalb or Pacific?
Why not then take the Q-diamond and change to the Q-circle at Sheepshead Bay?
I'm not Fred but I do think the Sea Beach is the most enjoyable of the four routes to Coney Island.
How is that possible? it's just a ditch and it's slow at that. At least the West End is elevated.
The Q is tunnel, speed from 7th Ave to Prospect Pk, cut to Newkirk, Embankment to just beyond Sheapshead Bay, E along the Beach to Stillwell, most diversified. And the Q Local is only 3 minutes longer from Prospect to Kings Hwy, so no need to take Exp if local comes along first.
"And the Q Local is only 3 minutes longer from Prospect to Kings Hwy, so no need to take Exp if local comes along first"
It is definitely more than 3 minutes saved with an express. But are you talking about if a local comes in and you let it go for an express? Then it is about 3 minutes. But say hypothetically a lcl and an exp left Prospect Pk at the same time. Q exp wins by 5 minutes to Kings Hwy and 7 to Sheepshed. Skipping a stop saves about 40-45 seconds.
That is not true. A lot of times, the local is quite fast and the express will get to Sheepshead Bay 3 minutes faster than the local.
I beg to differ. Two weeks ago I waited at least 5 min. at Brighton Beach for a Q local that we left behind at Newkirk Av. That is not to say that the Brighton local is not fast. The express is that much faster.
Yes, the express is that much faster, but sometimes, if you wait for an express and a local comes first,the local can leave space between it and the express. The express will see it, catch it, and pass it leaving something around 3 minutes for the local to reach sheepshead bay.
There might have been a hold up, the schedule says 3 minutes
Check the time table. I made a mistake, between Prospect and KH it is 5 minutes and 7 to Sheapshead bay Difference.
Could you please reword that post so I can understand it?
He meant Prospect Park to Kings Highway and the other to Sheepshead Bay.
It's possible because some of us have the imagination to appreciate a train that rides in an open cut and whizzes through a maze of mini-tunnels, and doesn't bust up the neighborhoods like those Els to, and some of us can appreciate different ideas of what turns them on. They are no so set in their ways that to think of an alternate choice borders on the unthinkable. Young man, you're a little too young and wet behind the ears to be so set in your ways. To quote the great Lincoln: "You must disenthrall yourself."
The N is also not the fastest choice out of the Bronx. What does that prove?
That it makes no sense to speak of "the fastest way to Coney Island" without specifying a point of origin.
Depending on where in the Bronx one is starting, the N may be faster than the alternatives. I'm not sure -- from the 4 or 5, is it faster to change at 14th to the Q or W or to wait until Atlantic and take the N? What about the 2 -- 42nd or Atlantic (or Borough Hall, which isn't even worth considering on the 4/5)?
Why not then take the Q-diamond and change to the Q-circle at Sheepshead Bay?
That is a reasonable option on weekdays. According to the timetables it does appear to be the fastest option from DeKalb, assuming the diamond catches up to the previous circle (and most do, or at least they're supposed to).
How is that possible? it's just a ditch and it's slow at that. At least the West End is elevated.
For a ditch it's pretty interesting. The shared ROW is neat. I agree with Fred's assessment of the mini-tunnels (the long one at New Utrecht is particularly enjoyable). The station construction is interesting. There's natural shade and there's no need for ugly wind screens. There are lots of els around the city but there are only a few ditches, and the Sea Beach is the longest of them all. I'll admit the Brighton's varied construction is also interesting, but I always find the Brighton local (on weekends) an absolute drag. Oh, and I should mention that I find the 75-foot cars somewhat unpleasant to ride; on the N I can get an R-40 or, better yet, an R-32. (Even better would be an R-42; I hope the N gets a bunch when the R-143's enter service.)
The Q Exp usually catches up to the Local between Newkirk and Sheapshead Bay
I'd say it catches up to the lcl between Church and Newkirk more than between Newkirk and Sheepshed. Every once and a while two lcls are passed on the rush.
The last couple times I rode it it was usually between Ave J and M
I'm used to around Beverley.
Well wonder of wonders, that's what you would do. I'm glad you're speaking for yourself and not the thousands that flock to Coney Island every summer to beat the heat. Bear in mind that many people do not have air conditioning, and up in the Bronx, away from the water, it is usually much warmer than on the beach. Coney Island is a relief for them. As for Rockaway, let's not get ridiculous. Coney Island as its worst is much prefered than Rockaway at its best.
the thousands that flock to Coney Island every summer to beat the heat
Maybe in years gone by people did this, but that has died thanks to the air conditioner. People go to beaches for sunbathing or waterbathing, but I can't imagine anyone thinking that a beach is an appropriate way to cool off considering the large amount of air conditioned facilities out there.
Ever wondered why Coney Island declined in popularity? It's not because of the decay, which followed the exodus.
Bear in mind that many people do not have air conditioning
That's why I mentioned all those public, indoor facilities after "If the power was out..."
and up in the Bronx, away from the water
Never heard of the Long Island Sound? I doubt more Bronxites go to Coney Island than Orchard Beach if they want the beach. If they want amusements, that's a different story. Orchard Beach should also be more popular among auto-owning Bronxites.
As for Rockaway, let's not get ridiculous. Coney Island as its worst is much prefered than Rockaway at its best.
If we're talking about the ocean, then Rockaway has Coney Island beat HANDS DOWN. Rockaways has big, giant waves, Coney Island is calmer than a swimming pool, something that many people have in their own communities.
Why waste your breath trying to reason with those two? Don't you know they're frick and frack. I wouldn't be surprised if they were related.
Congratulations on a great job of obfuscation, really marvelous. The fact is that the Culver has had two lines, the #5 and the F train, two separate lines. When I lived in NY the F did NOT go to Coney Island, it went to Church Avenue. The West End has been known as the #3 ( talk to my friend Jeff on that. He is expert on it), the B and now the W. Good God, what next designation for it. The Brighton was the #1, plus the QT and QB, and the Q and the D. Got it? The Sea Beach was the #4 and the N, that's all, and while some of those other trains sometimes did not go to Coney Island, the Sea Beach always did----without exception. Got it now?
The Sea Beach also had the short-lived NX. I guarantee you would have loved it. Well, the nonstop Sea Beach express run, anyway.
Congratulations on a great job of obfuscation, really marvelous.
Thanks, that's a great compliment coming from an expert on the topic like you.
The fact is that the Culver has had two lines, the #5 and the F train, two separate lines.
You then go on to state than the N had two different lines? This is how you prove your point?
BTW, you are WRONG. I guess you ignored the sentence where I said the first lettered line to Coney Island was the D via Culver.
When I lived in NY the F did NOT go to Coney Island, it went to Church Avenue.
So what? All four lines currently operating to Coney Island had done so at that time, the letter used to designate them is completely irrelevant, as with the exception of one (the F) they all run practically the same service (Broadway Express and Local) today.
The West End has been known as the #3 ( talk to my friend Jeff on that. He is expert on it)
It may have been known as such on BMT corporate documents, but it was not referred to as such. By the time the Triplexes made it there, the designations T and TT were already in use.
the B and now the W.
How can you be qualified to talk about this when you don't even know about the T?
Good God, what next designation for it.
B, unless they decide to keep the W on West End via Broadway Express and extend the B from 6th Avenue to Sea Beach, eliminating the N. I personally think that Broadway is the better line, and only inferior (Sea Beach) or duplicate (Brighton Local) services should operate via 6th Avenue.
It's just a plan to screw with your mind!
The Brighton was the #1, plus the QT and QB, and the Q and the D.
The QJ and M? Don't remember those, do you?
Got it?
Well, I do know it's time to get a bed for you over at Ward's Island.
The Sea Beach was the #4 and the N, that's all
And the NX. All that proves to me is that the Sea Beach was inferior enough to get the fewest trains running along its route. I don't know what you think, but the more variants of destination available on one line, the better and easier for its passengers.
and while some of those other trains sometimes did not go to Coney Island, the Sea Beach always did----without exception.
YOU ARE PLAIN WRONG. All of those trains went to Coney Island since 1920 or so. The only exception is when one of those lines were cut back to 86th Street for construction in 1994. I'll let you guess which one.
Got it now?
What is "it?" If it's your insanity, then certainly not!
Well let me get this straight Pig. I need a bed on Ward's Island, wherever the hell that is. The Sea Beach should be switched to 6th Avenue or eliminated. Since I didn't mention the T, therefore I don't know what I am taking about. AND the West End was never known as the #3, even after they got the Triplex for a short time between 1963 and 1965. Gee whiz I didn't know I was such an ignoramous. But since you are a know it all perhaps you should go to work for the TA. Your genius could turn things around in a hurry, but then you might have to ride the Sea Beach one time and you would be recognized as the enemy, and, walla, no more Pig but just bacon and pork chops.
But hey, I don't take it personal and I hope you don'teither.
Fred, don't you want the Sea Beach to run on 6th Avenue? The only way to get to 6th Avenue is the bridge. Your train wouldn't even be able to use the tunnel.
The N was and always should be A Broadway Train
Not if it is going to be stuck in the tunnel. I want it over the Manny B, and will try almost anything to get on there.
WHAT?! Keep it on Broadway...
So in that case you would support extending the B onto the the Sea Beach and eliminating the N when the bridge fully reopens.
The Bavarian Motor Works plan.
Pig: I would do anything and accept anything to get my Sea Beach onto the Manny B. No, that does not mean eliminating the line. I want the Sea Beach to become the Broadway Express again, go over the bridge and stay express along 4th Avenue. Simple.
I hardly take the N into Brooklyn, so it doesn't matter. But it will help to run more N trains to help reduce some of the crowding conditions in Queens.
N/W Broadway Lines
I live on one of the Sea Beach stops, and it wouldn't be right to see a B on Sea Beach after all the crap I've thrown at it. It HAS to be an N on Sea Beach. Added touches could include over bridge and broadway express.
I guess you know a hell of a lot more about it than I do. If that is the case, then disregard what I previously wrote and let me fall into line on your suggestion. The Sea Beach on 6th Avenue, then to the bridge. Check!!!!!
B, unless they decide to keep the W on West End via Broadway Express and extend the B from 6th Avenue to Sea Beach, eliminating the N. I personally think that Broadway is the better line, and only inferior (Sea Beach) or duplicate (Brighton Local) services should operate via 6th Avenue.
I am now throwing my FULL SUPPORT behind this plan. It has an interesting side effect:
New Utrecht Ave-62 St Station
Combine the signs and it's already there. The staircase at the front of the Manhattan-bound N platform still shows B-M. The next one correctly shows M-W (or W-M? -- I'm not sure which).
Oh, um, BTW, could you please not fiddle with the BASE in your posts? It made responding practically impossible. (If you see this, it wasn't entirely impossible.)
I'm going to repost that message, I wasn't aware that the form used a relative path in ACTION.
B, unless they decide to keep the W on West End via Broadway Express and extend the B from 6th Avenue to Sea Beach, eliminating the N. I personally think that Broadway is the better line, and only inferior (Sea Beach) or duplicate (Brighton Local) services should operate via 6th Avenue.
I am now throwing my FULL SUPPORT behind this plan. It has an interesting side effect:
New Utrecht Ave-62 St Station
You are reall goading Fred. The B will eventually replace the W on the West End
"You are reall goading Fred. The B will eventually replace the W on the West End"
I sure hope so!
N/W Broadway Lines
I said that
B replacing the N is better.
Why is B better then N it will be a totally new service. 6th Ave-Sea Beach
It will lead to less confusion, since a line in Brooklyn would have to be replaced anyway, this avoids having to swap the B and W in Manhattan and Queens but still maintains express service to Midtown for both Sea Beach and West End passengers.
Forget it. That will never happen despite your wish for it.
never say never, except if it is with onions
You really like your onions, don't you?:-)
That's because he looks like one. Ha!!!!!!!!
Fred hates onions, that is why I rag on him about them, also Grits
Fred when you left they still had trolley cars in Brooklyn and Queens
The MTA has been given us the short end of the stick for three decades now.
What about when the Broadway Line adopted yellow as its color in 1979? They took that from the N which was already yellow as far back as 1967. The EE was orange, the QB red and the RR green.
"NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Fred... our N train...!!! It's lost priority to a fake yellow... btw... where does the R rank in all of this? It's probably just me, but I don't notice a change in N service... it still seems pretty much the same... except now, sometimes, I have to wait longer... but doesn't look THAT bad... maybe I just don't realize it."
I ride it everyday, and can tell you, It's worse than horrible.. It's absolutely a disgrace!
N Broadway Line
But has it always been like that or only since the manhattan bridge changes?
Right you are. And I'm more pissed off than ever. What a crock. Some dirty SOB in the MTA has certainly got it in for my line. A prized BMT line is now praying for 2004 when by some miracle she might be redeemed. If not then, when?
Damn right fred... but if it took 16 years for the South side of the Manny B to be finished, how can the north side be done in 4 years? I think it's impossible how things are done these days... face it, we've lost our good ol N.
I'm here for ya N train... :') *wipes tear*
Maybe now that we have a good half-dozen of Sea Beach fans online, we ought to get together, go over to the MTA and wreck the crap out of the place for what they've done to our train.
Yeah, that's something else:
Where did all these Sea Beach fans pop-up from?
When I first came here You were the only one I remeber rooting for the Sea Beach. Now we have Go N Train, N broadway line and SeaBeach53. Where did all these people spring up from?
Well, at least I know that I'm the only Culver fan out there.
The Culver is actually my favorite of the four lines that go to Coney Island. The Sea Beach, to me, is slow and uninteresting.
-- David
Chicago, IL
SHHHH!!!
(quick, take that back before Fred sees....)
I saw that... and as for me, I've been coming to this site for about a year and one month now. I found this site ~2 years ago, but I didn't remember it so I found it once again. As for subtalk, I didn't get into it since recently.
Also, I didn't like the N that much since about a year ago as well... I thought it was crappy... back then I liked the 4 as I still do now... just that I like the N too...
Well if you were an old warhorse like me, you could have had the best of both. Up until 1963 or so, the Sea Beach N was the #4 train. That is my handle if you notice. That #4 refers to the old Sea Beach designation which first got in around 1924.
Oh... hehe... I guess the N and the 4 go together... I tried to buy one of those N trian subway shirts, but they didn't have my size, so I had to settle for a 4.
Fred will get a big head, I mean a bigger head, what happened to my Brighton People, Hello, are you guys still out there???
I think J trainloco just wants to liven up the board a bit. Let's see....there are quite a few of us Brighton boys out here, I'm sure far more than any other line, too. And for good reasons....
come on show it, it seems the Slow Beach is getting more action, and we do not want Fred to get a swell head(anymore then it is now)
EEeeeyyyyyo! Just cuz the bridge is out don't mean this 205th - Concourse Brighton Exp guy has lost contact with the world. :)
Let's see. It would be something like:
Slant R-40s on the Brighton Express
R-46s on the 4th Ave.
R-68s on the West End
R-68s on the Sea Beach
R-46s on the Culver
R-10s on the A
R-4s on the D
HEY!!! The R-46's on Culver are faster than the R-68's on West End!
It should be more like this:
R-46 on Culver
R-68 on Brighton
R-40 on Brighton
R-68A on West End
R-40 on Sea Beach
R-10 on A
R-4 on D
32mph is still 32mph no matter what you are riding in
>>32mph is still 32mph no matter what you are riding in<<
True, but a Brighton Local would be lucky to get up to 32.
"True, but a Brighton Local would be lucky to get up to 32."
With the stop so far spread apart, I thought the Brighton Local was pretty fast, especially compare to the West End and Sea Beach lines?
N/W Broadway Lines
And that is no longer the D. It is back in the Bronx and out of Brooklyn where it never belonged in the first place.
Hey! Hey! Watch that! Take yer Ritalin. :)
We were perfectly willing to share our D train with you guys and if you behave yourself, we might again. (snicker)
Are you sure that R10's and R4's are relative to that speed?
I was told that R10's on the A were SPEEDING PAST the LONG GAP between 59 St. and 125th St.
I don't know a whole lot of historical trains, but an expert on it told me.
Railfan Pete.
I rode on many, many A trains of immortal Thunderbirds along CPW and can tell you it was pure excitement. Ripping past 81st St., you felt that nothing could stop your train. The slant R-40s were just as fast on that stretch.
You and Steve8AVEXP related by any chance? Or do you both attend the same lunatic asylum?
Thanks a lot, Fred.:-)
How's this?
Triplexes on the 4
I can hear those bull and pinion gears now.
OK Big Steve. Now you are back in my good graces. I wonder if I can print it without missing a thing. Nice going.
You shouldn't have a problem printing it. The scrolling text gets put on the left side. At least that was the case when I printed one of Heypaul's scrolling masterpieces.
32's on the Brighton along with 42's (let's razz them again) and as we ALL KNOW, the slants were F trains.
OH MY GOD STEVE!! YOU ARE SOMETHING!!! REALLY!!! SOMETHING!!! I GOT TO GIVE IT TO YOU!!! YOU REALLY KNOW HOW TO GET THE WORD OUT!!!
I'm really not a brooklyn rider, so I don't the various speeds, but your CHART is REALLY FASCINATING!
Damn! I did not know the Culver Line was that slow.. The R46 usually runs very well... But I can't speak of anything in Brooklyn.
DAMN!!!! DAMN!! DAMN!!! YOU REALLY GOT THAT A TRAIN GOING LIKE LIGHTENING.. HAHAHAAHAAAAHH!! That's my DAMN!!! TRAIN!!! GO GOOO!!! A EXPRESS TO FAR ROCKAWAY!!!
R-4? D??? Hmmm. What I know about the D "Express", it's always been pretty slow... Stoping and going.. I never really witness that on the N.. The damn train just NEVER comes!! So I guess it's a lot better when your stoping and going, compare to Standing and being frustrated.
N/W Broadway
That was a nod to the good old days when the R-1/9s were still around. The D was populated by R-4s for a time. When the R-10s ruled on the A, nothing topped the CPW dash.
I varied the speeds on the other lines at random except for the slants on the Q.
Those R'40 should be going faster...
Fulton And Brighton are both fast routes.. At one time, 4th Avenue was fast until they put all those damn timers. The B use to flash through there like a bullet train.. Now it crawls.
N/W Bwy
everytime I rode a N/B/ Express on 4th Ave, the R matched us from station to station
Are you really paying attention to what this guy is saying? If you are, then naive only begins to describe your problems. If anyone has ever had an axe to grind it's my friend Bob. He is so Brightonized that he can't see the forest from the trees. For all I know he is lost somewhere up in the Bronx thinking his beloved D train is going to take him back to Brooklyn. Can you wait until 2004 at least? Bob? Bob???????
Hey the D was IND when I was a kid. My number #1 Brighton, also Q, D was not my main line then, and for 3 years it is off the Brighton. Broadway-Brighton is my lines, The smog must be bad, wait until 2003 and you can take the Blue Line
HAHAHA
The peanut gallery has been heard from. The joke is now complete.
You might move to Queens. Good show. But can you show some class and switch over to the Mets? Give Judy a big hug for me.
I told you I root for the Mets in 95 pct of the games they play, except when they play the Yankees. Judy is still sick.
Maybe because ur bad luck causing delays on the express track causing the locals to catch up... tsk, tsk, tsk
"everytime I rode a N/B/ Express on 4th Ave, the R matched us from station to station"
Maybe the N, but I can't see the R line catching up to anything else.. Especially the B line which were using the R40 Slants. Compare that to the slow R30's (before modification) which was used at a time on the R line and you might get a better view of how things were.
N/W Bwy Lines
If you are an N Broadway man, then you had better get off your ass and support the Sea Beach. It is the same line and it is known more by that title than any other. We can't let the Brighton or Culver boys push us around. You've been straddling the fence and running around Robin Hood's barn long enough. Time to lace on the gloves and go to war with your Sea Beach comrades.
You mean like this?:
W between 36th St. and Pacific St.
I think the Rockies disastrous season has affected your noggin. That air in Colorado must be more polluted than at first advertized.
Steve, you really outdid yourself this time. Hmmm....is the Slow Beach even slower than the holy slow 4th Av. local?
@%!%&!?!$&* SEA BEACH IS NOT THAT SLOW!!! Ok, it's like a 15 min ride, but I know that 4th Ave local isn't that slow...
Oh, they are out there. Like Rats they come out from the darkness when no one is looking and sneak up on people. OK, I didn't mean it. But I had to get a good crack in. I'm sure you will be hearing from them, but it is long overdue that the Sea Beach people have finally stood up to be heard.
"Yeah, that's something else:
Where did all these Sea Beach fans pop-up from?
When I first came here You were the only one I remeber rooting for the Sea Beach. Now we have Go N Train, N broadway line and SeaBeach53. Where did all these people spring up from?
Well, at least I know that I'm the only Culver fan out there."
I'm not a fan of the Broadway Line... But a critic. The reason why I call myself the "N Broadway Line" is because I live next to the line. Otherwise, I will probably call myself the A "8th Avenue express, because that's my favorite line. I thought people knew already???
Seachbeach and GoN is clearly a fan of the N Broadway Line.. They will defend it, and even go as far to say that the service is good.
Note: these guys no longer live by the N line, so their opinions are shape by past experience... Mine is not.
For example, they do not have to endure long waits, crowded trains and smelling people.. So it is understandable that these guys are just fans, not actual riders who have to use it everyday.
The only time I have came in "defense" of the line, is when it came to route which services the heart of Midtown and Downtown Manhattan. You can add downtown Brooklyn as well. The 8th Avenue and Lexington Avenue Lines don't cover the heart of Midtown Manhattan. And the Sixth Avenue Lines does not serve the financial district. The N/R does it both very effectively and on top of that, it has best transfers in the entire system. Other than that, as for transporation
it doesn't score high in my book.
N/W Broadway Lines
Have you been hibernating or something? The most prolific Sea Beach man is me----absolutely no doubt about that. Remember my name because you seem to be the only one who doesn't. #4SEA BEACH FRED!!!!
calm down watch your blood pressure
I think he needs another Cyclone fix.:-)
This time in the back car
"Note: these guys no longer live by the N line, so their opinions are shape by past experience... Mine is not. "
I DO in fact live with the N. I take it everyday. I live at Bay Parkway. Just wanted to clear that up... :)
At least you didn't hear what I heard today and several times while traveling through the 34, 42nd and 50th Street stations on the S line... I could hear passengers screeming on the TOP of their LUNGS "Where the F.... is the D train... If you ever experience this on the N line station, I would be surprise.. The reason I said this, N passengers are so use to bad service... you will never hear them complain.
Believe me, the N isn't the only line being affected by this new change: B, D, R, Q and W lines.
N Bwy Lines
Astoria was always BMT, at least the last 60 years
Now Fred, if you had been on that N train running nonstop along the Sea Beach portion, you would have been wearing a silly grin the whole time.
today the commute was bad. right around 9 it was pretty much just as you described (I didn't ride in yesterday - so i don't know about it).
I can only wonder if there were new dispatchers or a change in the N/W ratio (more Ws than Ns now?). Service has been pretty decent since the bridge flip up until this point (at least for those of us in queens - i continuously hear nightmare stories about people from brooklyn trying to get around though - which is why i don't live there). Today there was a few minutes delay in the N, and when we pulled into 39th, we had to hold for a W to pass - which makes no sense since one passed just 5 minutes earlier.
I also noticed a lot of plain cloths guys around - 39th and queens plaza - with clipboards writting down whatever (car numbers? arrival time? dwell time?).
given that, i suspect the TA is *(&^%ing around, trying to tweek service, and in actuality make it far, far worse. Kinda makes you want to grab mr. clipboard, turn it sideways, and shove it up his candy a**.
you'd think they'd have half a brain enough to run these expirements on a weekend, or at the very least keep the public informed so they know soemthing might be up and to maybe expect delays or a juggled schedule. can it really hurt to print up a few red and white signs?
bottom line: no one should be surprised by this crap.
I bet they're planning to make the W all local in Astoria, all the time.
perhaps. service has been pretty decent all things considered for most of the line since the flip, but they seem pretty bottlenecked at ditmars, no matter what the hour - they bring 2 in, and send two out -which causes at least a little backup at 25th av.
I'm not sure how they used to do it in the old days (was it the 1940s when there were 2 or 3 trains to astoria?), but clearly they just dont seem to know how to juggle them at ditmars. I don't know if making it all local would help decrease the complication.... i can only imagine it would.
Couldn't they also make more tracks or platforms at Dirmars? Maybe add a seperate platform for W trains. Like a layout at Stillwell... Sure this is expensive and there's no room to make it, but it'd be a nice solution. Or they could build a new platform on top of the existing one... no wait, the Hells Gate Bridge... damn... o well, I tried...
it'd be nice, but as you mentioned, the hell gate is over it, so it won't happen. besides, 31st isn't that wide.
perhaps if they ever extend it to LaGuardia... HAHAHA! (we know that won't happen)
"it'd be nice, but as you mentioned, the hell gate is over it, so it won't happen. besides, 31st isn't that wide.
perhaps if they ever extend it to LaGuardia... HAHAHA! (we know that won't happen)"
There's room, but it has to be configure differently. This might take tearing the whole station down and rebuilding it with the new configuration. Soooo... nothing is impossible! The only problem is, community and business opposition, because of the amount of sidewalk space that would be for this new configuration.
N Bway
Hate to say I told you so, but. . .
I told you so.
Like I told Fred, The W gets priority over the N; so if there is an N and a W at Astoria Blvd waiting to get into Ditmars, put your money on the W because it's almost a given that it will leave first.
Get used to sitting in-between stations on the N. And if you can't, don't worry. You'll have four long years to adjust to it.
I've seen them push the N in before the W plenty of times at ditmars. same at 34th.
I don't think they're giving either priority; it's simply anarchy for some reason. Maybe everyone with half a clue went on vacation this week? either that, or they're running more Ws thn Ns
All things considered, it was perhaps a 30 second delay. I think i can live with that just fine. plenty of seats to go around.
Yes the W does get priority over the N. Hell, the W even gets newer cars than the N in general. But I've seen the W get priority over the Q and R trains as well. On Monday, I rode the W train and it pulled into Herald Square and there was already an R train stopped in the station. But the W left first. I've seen Q trains held at Times Square to let W's go in front of them. It's that whole switching from local to express between 34th and 42nd that causes delay in Manhattan. But there's really no other way they can run the W during weekdays. They can't terminate it at 57th with both Q trains relaying there. And they can't make the Q-diamond a rush-hours-only service, which would allow W trains to terminate at 57th during middays as well as weekday evenings.
Maybe they could terminate the W at Queensboro Plaza during midday hours like they used to do with the old yellow B train from 1986-88. Or not run the W express in Queens at all. The old yellow B never ran express in Astoria, not even during rush hours.
I think that the only way to stop some of the serious congestion on the Broadway Line is to change the way the trains are running now.
While I would like to see the W go to 21st-Queensbridge, it would be better to end it with the Q at 57th Street. Simply drop one of those Qs. Run the Q as the Brighton Express and put the M back over the Brighton Line as the local the way it was years ago.
>>>Service has been pretty decent since the bridge flip up until this point ...<<<
Meanwhile...Bronx/Mahattan B and D service has been NOTHING BUT EXCELLENT!!! I wish it would stay this way forever!
Peace,
ANDEE
except for the weekend no b service
Meanwhile...Bronx/Mahattan B and D service has been NOTHING BUT EXCELLENT!!!
I will say, this month's (MDBF and PEER) numbers will bear this out. I'm pleasantly suprised.
That is tough. It seems the Broadway line can't get it's act together. Wasn't it able to handle this many trains years ago? Why not now?
And passengers should be smart enough not to blame the employees. At least passengers can get off the train and go home, the operators and conductors have to do it all damn day! They should instead be angry at the Manhattan bridge and TA management. Anyone still think we would've been better off building a tunnel years ago. If it started in 1980 a new tunnel replacement could've been built by now.
I do!
But this one's not the TA's fault -- it's City Hall and Albany's fault! It's the damn city and state DOT's fault for letting the bridge rot for so many years and pissing away so much money on fixing it -- money that could have been spent to build new tunnels for the B, D, N and Q trains. A partial solution could have been the Rutgers-DeKalb connection that has been mentioned so many times on this board and that the MTA actually considered doing. With that connection, one of the four MB services could have been rerouted into the Rutgers Street Tunnel (which the F train currently has all to itself). If Rutgers-DeKalb existed today, the V train could be run through it to reach the Brighton line and operate to Brighton Beach as the express. Then there would only be four services along Broadway for the TA to contend with and the W could terminate at 57th middays too. But no the city and state just wouldn't let it happen, would they?
I completely agree with you that they shoulda built a tunnel instead of trying, for 20 years, to get this bridge to hold together. it won't last, period. brooklyn is far too reliant on these bridge crossings which always need repair. in queens at least if there is a problem, a re route (except for the 7 and N) isn't too big a problem, and even with the n/7, you can cut them off at QP and send everyone down to the EFGR...
however - i don't know who it is at the TA' that's to blame, maybe people are just out of practice, but they really are not doing the best job juggling the trains, at least not this week. I suspect it'll work itself out fine though... the capacity is there, it's just not being managed right.
And for the past 12 years, there have only been two services on Broadway, the N and the R, both local, except for a brief period in 1990 and 91 when N trains ran express from 34th to Canal and over the bridge. Why N trains stopped at 49th Street, I don't know. Probably due to heavy usage.
It's only been a month with the current five services on Broadway. They did have five services on Broadway from 1986-88 -- N, Q, R and Brooklyn B and D. I never rode the Broadway line during that time but I do know that the Manhattan service patterns were pretty much the same as today. The Brooklyn D and Q ran express all the way to 57th, while the Brooklyn B switched from express to local between 34th and Times Square with the N and R running local all times, although the N did use the bridge evenings nights and weekends, switching to the express tracks south of Prince. I don't know how many delays occured back then, but I'm sure some did. The operations people might be out of practice. It has been 12 years since there was this much service on Broadway.
But for Queens, the service pattern is different from 1986-88. The 86-88 service had B and R (later N) trains making all stops from Ditmars to QBP rush hours only. Maybe they ought to go back to that by having all N and W trains run local during rush and terminate the W at QBP middays.
So let me get this straight... the N was going over the bridge on the South side in 1990-1991? How did this happen? Was the bridge able to support the service? If so, then why did it not continue to go over the bridge?
Good question. I'd like to know that myself.
IIRC a cracked beam was discovered on the south side during an inspection. Consequently, the south side tracks were immediately closed. This happened in late 1990; I was in the city in October and the N was still using the bridge.
"I completely agree with you that they shoulda built a tunnel instead of trying, for 20 years, to get this bridge to hold together. it won't last, period. brooklyn is far too reliant on these bridge crossings which always need repair. in queens at least if there is a problem, a re route (except for the 7 and N) isn't too big a problem, and even with the n/7, you can cut them off at QP and send everyone down to the EFGR..."
I really don't know what you are talking about.. They are plenty of options besides the Bridge.. Including the F line of which you speak of.
N Bwy Line
If Rutgers Dekalb existed, goddamn I'd be one happy doofus, and what about a goddamn Connection between Jay St. Boro Hall A/C/F with Lawrence St N/R, How convenient is that,to connect A to Sea Beach and 4th ave Goddman allthe time that would be saved, Screw the MTA! and I'll be taking out my anger by way of .....YOU GUESSED IT....hey Joe get the Krylon
Thank God, a T/O who kind of sees things through the eyes of a victim/passenger of the NYC Subway.
You mention the fact that there were all W's at Astoria/Ditmars, and no N's. Now, would a tower operator be dumb enough to send all those s/b W's express, knowing the impact it would have on the local stations?
The N line has been a disgrace for years. If you think things are bad now, keep in mind that ridership is down now with people on vacation, and school being out. But after Labor Day, things are really going to be out of control on the Broadway Line. In other words, things will be back to normal.
Normal, try Armageddon. It was madness the Monday morning after they flipped the bridge services. College goes back in session on Monday, and ther are going to be a LOT of students hurling expletives at any official they can find because of having to figure out that:
A. the D is now the Q
B. the Q is still the Q
C. the B is now the W
D. they will have to transfer at 34th to get from Brooklyn to Harlem/The Bronx and back, and
E. service is tied up on the Astoria line and on Bway due to a train having to switch mid-line from local to express.
Mind you, I just said college students (oh, and isn't NYU a local stop. Boy will Canal St. and 14th be a mess). High Schools are back in session later next week, and elementary schools re-open on 9/6. All to be greeted by the flip.
I wouldn't want to be a T/O, a C/R, or an S/A right now...
Oh, and I forgot, isn't it true that Stillwell is closing? Meaning that South Brooklyn will become the 2nd Circle of H*** by late Sept.
What does that mean? And I think that the changes were well explained by the TA. If anyone doesn't understand it still... they deserve to get lost...
But the N is still the N, a moral victory or sorts. But it is still local and not on the bridge. One out of three may be great for a baseball player, but for my Sea Beach it is strictly for the pits.
But at least the N still runs 24/7 over its entire route. The W can't make that same claim. Nor can the R.
Students who can figure out college should be able to figure out subway changes and read the red colored notices. Unless they have a certain type of disability like blindness or deafness then I can understand.
But then again I'm hearing these reports about how many students fail math during summer school....
And most of them probably have to use a calculator to add 2+2.
As the olde joke goes - "yo mama is so stupid, i told her to take the 4 train and she took the 2 train twice".
Sounds more like Fred and he hated the BMT 2 Train
Boy did I ever. You finally got something right Bob. From Queens Plaza to Times Square. it seemed forever for that damn train to go five stops so I could escape and ride a real train.
Yogi Berra was once asked if he wanted his pizza cut into 4 slices or 8. He said, "Better make it 4. I don't think I can eat 8 slices."
Well what did you expect from him? He was a damn Yankee.
Then there was the time someone played Word Association with Berra. He explained how it worked and instructed Berra to say whatever came into his mind first. It went like this:
Host: "Mickey Mantle."
Berra: "What about him?"
OH COME ON! You didn't interview Yogi because you came to the mount for Wisdom! It was because you could always count on having to buy a new reel of tape once you DID ... to preserve the one you rolled.
And Yogi did manage the Mets
Yep ... and he fit right in ... another reason why the Mets may suck, but they've got soul.
Granted, Yogi did win the 1973 pennant with the Mets, but it was all downhill after that. After Hodges died, the club wasn't the same until Davey Johnson became manager. Whitey Herzog felt he should have been named manager instead of Berra. In his opinion, "Grant always felt a former Yankee or Dodger should manage the club." Herzog even went so far as to tell Grant to his face that he didn't know beans about baseball, which was true.
Yogi is a NY Ichon, glad he finally got King George to make up
The way I understood it, Steinbrenner came out to Yogi's museum on his own and apologized for the way he fired Yogi back in 1985. They shook hands and Yogi proclaimed, "It's over."
Though I despised the Yankees and especially Berra, those who think the guy is dumb are off their trollies. He won a pennant with a rapidly declining Yankee team in 1964, only to be fired, after which the Yankees collapsed. He brought a real weak Mets team off as NL champions in 1973 when in reality they were barely a 500 team. He was a great handler of pitchers as the Yankee catcher, and as manager he was great with the pitching staff, a mark of a real good manager. He is dumb like a fox. He never fooled me on that one.
Yogi wasn't as strict a disciplinarian as Hodges was, though. OTOH he did fine Phil Linz for playing a harmonica on the Yankee team bus after a crucial loss to the White Sox in '64. He also fined Willie Mays for leaving training camp without telling anyone.
Yep, and that's when he first said, "It ain't over until it's over."
He's right.
Like DeJa Vu all over again
That too.
Yogi will always answer, "You mean right now?" if you ask him what time it is.
Then there was the time his wife took one of their sons to see the movie Dr. Zhivago (my grandmother thought it was excellent; she lived through that period), to which Yogi replied, "What the hell is wrong with him now?"
And who could forget, "I'd like to thank everyone for making this night necessary."
"The N line has been a disgrace for years. If you think things are bad now, keep in mind that ridership is down now with people on vacation, and school being out. But after Labor Day, things are really going to be out of control on the Broadway Line. In other words, things will be back to normal."
OH BOY! NOT AGAIN!!!
N Bwy
Yes. That again. Nothing but the truth.
Why couldn't they make one of the 3 W trains an N train and get it on it's way?
Do the dispatchers at Astoria have any brains? Is there any flexibility?
OMG... that is such a good point...I guess they don't have brains at all... or there's probably some "fake yellow" rule against it... :)
they really seem rather clueless with getting trains in and out of ditmars. the rest of the line seems pretty decent most times (and i ride it all sorts of hours...) simply due to the increased volume of trains, but they just can't get the juggling in and out of ditmars down. i don't know if putting everything on the local tracks would help or add to the bottleneck...
The MTA would probably make the N and W a skip - stop scheme if the peak express idea collapses (as it soon will). Why? Because those who planned this current service setup probably never took Logic (high school and college).
Nah, they turn the N at QP at all times, extend and turn the q at QP, and run the W express at all times. hehe!
Yup, the BMT is back.....HAHAHAHAHA
Peace,
ANDEE
Quick, send for the noodle squad. I think this guy is cracking up.
Nah ... he remembers what the BMT had become on Broadway ... "Barely Moving Trains" ... gotta admit, it does sound like a mess. Good thing I took the IND. Heh.
We've gotta put Felix Unger to work. He'd get it straightened out in no time flat - if his sinuses don't get to him first. HMAAH!! FMAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!
Nah, he'd be too busy with a handkerchief trying to wipe the germs off the rails. And it ain't spaghetti, it's linguini ... now it's garbage.
I just picked up a DVD of The Odd Couple hoping to identify the Mets catcher in the staged triple play at Shea. No luck. It was probably either Jerry Grote or Greg Goossen. The infield consisted of Ken Boyer at third, Bud Harrelson at short, Jerry Buchek at second, and Ed Kranepool at first. Jack Fisher was the pitcher. Since the DVD is widescreen, you can see Boyer field Mazeroski's grounder, step on the bag, and throw to Buchek.
I was at that game, probably got in with the Borden's Milk certificate deal. Took the 7, of course.
I'm going to go out on a limb and ask if you might remember the approximate date. AFAIK the Mets played the Pirates in Pittsburgh during the first week in June of 1967, so the games at Shea would have been either the week before or the week after. Ken Boyer was still with the club; he got traded to the White Sox in July. The Ice Capades were held at Shea from June 1 thru June 8. I remember the commercials for them and the plug afterwards: "See Ice Capades for the first time under the stars at Shea Stadium. Eight evening performances from June 1 thru June 8".
Do you have a scorecard of the game? I'm curious as to who the catcher was. You can also see one of the outfielders jogging in after the triple play. I would guess it would have been Cleon Jones or Tommy Davis.
I also noticed a funny thing after that triple play: nobody got up to leave the ballpark, which is normally what happens the minute the game is over. By any chance, was that triple play staged in between games of a doubleheader?
Kind of reminds me about the train I drive in London. I'm on the Northern Line and one night at about 17.15 a train stalled at Tooting Broadway northbound. I was running south via the City and was short tripped at Kennington sidings being told to run early north to booked destination. It turns out I was the first Northbound in approx 30 mins.)Normal service is every 3 minutes) The city branch is extremely busy as it runs right thru the financial district. I made all the annoucements about this train being for all stations to Edgware. After taking 75 mins to make a 20 minute journey due to severe overcrowding and signal operators holding me all over the place I made it to Euston which is the stop before the line splits into two branches I was told to divert to High Barnet........
You could almost smell the anger!!!!
The same sort of thing seems to happen quite regularly on the Piccadilly Line at Acton Town. First it goes to Heathrow and then... Rayners Lane.
With people trying to make flights it does get very angry, and if I am in a huury to get home I get angry as well.
Simon
Swindon UK
YEAH!!! THE N BROADWAY LINE REALLY SUCKS!!! BIG TIME BULL!!!
N Broadway Line
They seemed FAIRLY coordinated at Ditmars today at least..still had to wait a few minutes at Astoria Blvd for a train to pull out..but apparently that is going to SOP for awhile....The T/O on the R-32 on the N I had coming out of Ditmas was a real PRO. knew EXACTLY how to get those timers going down into 60th St to all clear at once..and then GUNNED that sucker into that tunnel....I looked thru the crack in his door and saw a nice HEALTHY..55 on his speedometer...ah...just like the good old days! And after switching to a 'diamond' Q slant at 57th, had a nice speedy run down Old Broadway....
How come I never see the nice runs? *sigh*
Don't feel bad. I haven't been on a really speedy Lexington Ave. express run in years. That 5 train we took back on August 9, 1967 MOVED!!
Funny thing that you mention that...I was up snapping some pics up at Tremont,met a REAL nice worker [they are building SOMETHING up there...] there who showed me the best place to stand, etc,etc..[also mentioned about the....LaGuardia train being the next BIG thing...sure...]..so on my way back, had a trainer watching the new T/O on Rustbird 7780 [literally...almost eaten thru the number plates!]..well..for a new guy..he rammed that old sucker down Lex HAD to have been low 50's,couldnt dsee the speedometer....bouncing around screeching...real nostalgia yesterday!
I need to take an express run on the Lex during midday when I'm in the city next month. I just might get lucky.
Yes, they sure do inch along these days!
With all this technological progress, we don't see any of it below ground, except for a few new Japanese trains (with poor a/c) to replace trains that we already had. This seems to me like using a band-aid to cover over a bad sickness.
Where's the Second Avenue Line? Where's the crossover from the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to both the Sixth and Second Avenue Lines?
How about a loop line like in London, running from the 63rd Street tunnel east to the GG, over the underused GG south to Hoyt-Schmerhorn, then turning north over the F line into Manhattan, and up Second Avenue? We'll call this loop line the T train. As in Boston, when you want to get somewhere in a hurry, you take the "T".
The T train can operate on the completed center section of the Second Avenue line, while it it being extended both north over Second Avenue and then up Third Avenue in the Bronx, replacing the downsized Third Avenue line.
South from Houston Street, a new line, let's call it the V, proceeds down Water Street, stopping at 111 Wall (slidewalk transfer to the two Wall Street IRT stations) and then looping about the Battery over the IRT tracks and a connector to the Eighth Avenue Line just north of Cortland, switching to the Sixth Avenue Line at West Fourth, just in time to greet the new entrances, token booth, elevator and stairs that are actually located AT West Fourth Street! The V continues north on Sixth Avenue, turning right under Central Park, stopping at the new crossroads station on the Second Avenue Line, continuing East into Queens. Is it better to send the V straight out to Parsons, or loop it over the GG/T line into Brooklyn? I don't know, I don't live in Queens. Maybe somebody in Queens can add to this?
Following this logic, the next step is to start up the Y line by building a connection from the rebuilt Franklin Avenue Shuttle to the inner loop (the GG/T lines). This would allow the Y, a super express from Brighton Beach to run straight north over the inner loop into Midtown Manhattan. Who needs the Manhattan Bridge and its congestion ;) ? This would be a REAL step to relieve the BMT DeKalb Avenue bottleneck... and since I live in Brooklyn I have a long and painful knowledge of this.
By the way, in the short term, DeKalb Avenue needs to have completed a crossover from the Brighton Line to the third inner tracks that don't stop there, for rush hour. Currently, only the trains coming from Pacific Street can access the half/unused bypass tracks.
I have long proposed an extension of the 2/5 IRT to a new Kings Plaza/Avenue Vee station, with a Park & Ride garage built on the abandoned industrial and commercial sites nearby.
The old terminus of the 2/5 IRT intersects with the new Cross Brooklyn Subway, the X Train. It wouldn't take much to build this, because a practically unused LIRR branch and right-of-way already exists there, and has been wasting prime urban land for decades, tax-free. In fact, Robert Moses proposed a Cross Brooklyn Expressway:
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/cross-brooklyn/
Instead, I propose a Cross Brooklyn Subway, starting with the X Train. The X when heading West loins up with the N and revived NX line, heading into Manhattan, just in time for the completed Manhattan Bridge renovation, when four tracks are open for the first time in I don't know how long.
Heading east to JFK airport, the X and its stations follow the tracks and right-of-way along Conduit Boulevard and Linden Boulevard, finally making a loop underneath the terminals before screaming its way back in the other direction.
A possible future variant of the X is to continue north, intersecting with the terminal A station, Parsons, before heading into Manhattan that way as a super-express. that way, the X can be run as a gigantic loop in both directions, and should be called the "O" rather than the "X".
Queens people should decide (not TA planners who ride in helicopters and police cars out to the Hamptons) whether to make the Cross-Brooklyn O train the "0" (zero) train (IRT) and run it from Parsons to 74th Street and then over the under-used 7 line to 8th Avenue in Manhattan, both relieving congestion in the rush hour, and providing a way to get to JFK from their neighbourhoods without driving in bad traffic.
I've pencilled this all into a copy of my 1967 map, showing the Subway at its most extensive. Creating alternatives to the traditional bottlenecks, loop lines where trains don't have to stop and wait which is ridiculous, and continuing to expand a Subway which grows as the City grows, is the only way to make the City a place where people live and work because they want to, not just because they are forced to (and get out as soon as possible)!
Now that would be REAL progress, contrasted with the downsizing that we see today.
Hmmmmm? Comments? Or is this jsut a dream, will we continue to slide into oblivion, spending hours in traffic or bottlenecked trains in a decaying infrastructure, with only a cell-phone to keep one company? Personally, my biggest pleasure would be to get home from work quickly, and be with my family.
Cheers
Rienzi
Interesting handle. I am currently reading the memoirs of General Philip H. Sheridan, one of the four great Union generals of the War of the Rebellion. Guess what his horse's name was?
...General Philip H. Sheridan, one of the four great Union generals of the War of the Rebellion.
Fred, guess we're going to have to send you back to school to study your history some more... Sheridan was one of the evil generals opposing the great Confederacy during the War of Northern Aggression! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An unreconstructed Rebel. How pathetic!!! But since I like you I will let your little diatribe pass. For the record, Phil Sheridan did something that no other Union general could do in four years of war in the Shenandoah Valley. He blasted the Rebels out of it, and then laid waste to the place to make it useless to the traitors, and thereby ending the constant threat to Washington D.C. To top it off he was the guy who finally shattered Bobby Lee's line of fortifications after nine months when he thrashed George Pickett in the April 1, 1865 battle of Five Forks. Little Phil. What a guy. Today he would be a real Sea Beach man.
Didn't know about that!
Rienzi is actually my cat's name. The message board software told me that my real name was "taken", so I need ot think of something fast.
I recall that the opera Rienzi by Wagner was playing on the car radio, the night that I found him, when he was a kitten. But this is about the Rienzi who was the last of the Roman Tribunes. From Lytton's book:
[i]Marching to Viterbo, Rienzi distinguished himself greatly in deeds of arms against the tyrant ("Vita di Cola di Rienzi".) John di Vico. Nay, he fought as one worthy of belonging to the Grand Company. This increased the zeal of the Romans; and the city disgorged half its inhabitants to attend the person of the bold Tribune. [/i]
Great!!!!!! I learned something, too. Now you know why I love this website. On Subtalk you can learn an awful lot on many subjects by listening and not acting like you're a know-it-all. Thanks for the info, and keep that handle. It's a great one.
Thanks for the kind words! I'm learning a lot too.
They should call the "W" train the "T" train as they did prior to Nov. 26th 1967. They should also have an "NX" train as well. If they really wanted to use their head get rid of the letters on the BMT and go back to the numbers. I like the ring of the #1 Brighton Line better than the "Q" train etc.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I say end the letters completely. Say 1-15 is A division material, 16 and over is B division material.
I think that the numbers are still better than the letters. Give the BMT division its old numbers but, make sure that you use a color code so that the numbers duplicated on the IRT cannot be mixed up to easily with those on the BMT. The IND can have its own set of numbers.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Is this me or someone else talking. Those words could have come straight from me.
It was #3 West End Jeff talking. We must have been on the same track.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Well, today the letter system is arbitray and sometimes it even seems hokey to me, since there's no pattern.
Does anyone know what the original pattern of the letters meant? Around 1970 there was not only a full length M train (that I could ride uninterrupted from Kings Highway to Court Street without being forced to change at DeKalb), a B and a J; but also a QB, a QJ, an MJ and so on. And there were double letters; e.g. CC, GG, and RR... and it's hard for me to stop using the original designations. Or better, just the Brighton Line, the Fourth Avenue Line and so on.
Cheers.
I have at least some idea of what the original letters meant. If the designation was "CC" for example it meant that the train made all local stops. If the designation was "D" it meant that the train operated express for at least a porion of its run. An oddball was the "QT" and the "QB". The "QT" meant that it was a Brighton Line train that would operate through the Montague Street tnnel. The "QB" meant that it was a Brighton Line train that would operate over the Manhattan Bridge.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
It all goes back to the original IND letter code. A single letter meant express service while a double letter meant local service. Details on the original code are located elsewhere on this site. The BMT letter code was simply an extension of the IND letters. Prior to Chrystie St., it still worked in terms of single letters for express and double letters for local. In later years, things got too confusing, and as a consequence, double letters were dropped. The only true local lines left on the B division are the C, G, L, and R. AFAIK the V will join that club when it makes its debut. You could also make a case for the current B, since it makes all local stops when it is running.
The system never really made sense. The E was express in one borough and local in another. The F was express in one borough and local in two (for most of its history). Etc.
What doesn't make sense about that? It's express in the outerborough, and makes local stops in the city. What's not making sense? It makes perfect sense, while in the outerboroughs, you skip all the unimportant stops, and in Manhattan you make all the stops which peope are getting off on.
Remember there was at one time a EE
What the EE has to do with that, I have no idea, but yes, you're right, it did exist.
And the M was, according to my 1967 map, the QJ. Before downsizing, it ran on the Brighton line from Coney Island to Metropolitan Avenue in Queens.
Nope, The QJ was the QJ and the M was the M. Prior to Chrystie St., Bankers Specials running to the Nassau Loop from both the Brighton and 4th Ave. lines carried M signs. Afterwards, the old #10 Myrtle-Chambers service became the M.
The EE is approximately today's (R) train when it terminates at Whitehall.
:-) Andrew
I was referring to the IND single/double letter scheme. According to the letter scheme, the E and F should be express. We all know that they're both local in Manhattan and the F is local in Brooklyn.
What really got under my skin was the route signs on the R-1/9s: E-8th Ave. Express. 8th Ave. express, my ass. E trains ran local along 8th Ave. except during rush hours. I developed a strong dislike for the E as a result, and it still can be felt today. I refuse to take an E train south of 42nd St. I won't even set the signs on my sign box for an E.
In happier times, it went to Euclid and actually MEANT something. But E to Hudson Terminal was an anathema to the letter code. Much like the B. :)
I still bellieve a numbering system would be more effective and less confusing that this ridiculous letter system that keeps adding, subtracting, changing, and confusing everyone. Some came up with such a system a week or so ago and I don;t see why it couldn't work.
IRT 1-20
IND 21-39
BMT 40-60
It would lessen the confusion.
I agree with you that your numbering system would help to end the confusion within the New York Ciyt subway system.
#3 West End Jeff
What really got under my skin was the route signs on the R-1/9s: E-8th Ave. Express. 8th Ave. express, my ass. E trains ran local along 8th Ave. except during rush hours. I developed a strong dislike for the E as a result, and it still can be felt today. I refuse to take an E train south of 42nd St. I won't even set the signs on my sign box for an E.
Wow! Just for that? What if you're going to 23rd St/8th Ave and you don't have time to wait for the once-in-a-blue-moon (C)? Reminds me of a friend I had in the 1980's who refused to watch Channel 5 because Fox wasn't "a real network."
:-) Andrew
I'd get off at 34th or 14th and walk.:-)
If I know I have to get off at a local stop, that's different.
The B is technically the 6th Ave express. Take a look at the subway map guide at the bottom of the map.
Agreed. However, since it's terminating at 34th St. and not dashing to W. 4th St. anytime in the forseeable future, the express term has become a bit of a misnomer.
When the IND was opened in 1932 (it wasn't complete until some time later), each letter was assigned from west to east:
A=Washington Heights
B=Washington Heights
C=Concourse
D=Concourse
E=Queens
F=Queens
G=Queens
H=Fulton
The IND favored the northern terminal in it's routings. H was for the Court Street Shuttle, and probably that would have been a full length line if the IND had gone through it's original screwy plan of only sending expresses to Manhattan and locals to Court (Transit Museum).
Repeated letters (eg, AA, BB, CC, GG etc) were locals, singles were expresses.
In 1959, they decided to extend the system onto the BMT, this is when the pattern collapsed.
Letters J-M went to the Eastern Division, N-T went to the Southern. The assignment of J for Jamaica and M for Myrtle is obvious, K was assigned as the Broadway-Brooklyn Local because it was next to J and this left L for 14th-Canarsie.
In the South, it was crazier. I never figured out why the letters were assigned as they were, and what the REAL reason was for not assigning P.
The double, non-repeating letters either connected two lines, or told you something with the second letter. QJ was Brighton-Jamaica, RJ was Fort Hamilton-Jamaica. QB was Brighton via Bridge and QT was Brighton via Tunnel, NX was Sea Beach Express (violation, it was a double-letter express).
Double letters were eliminated in 1985.
>>>...not assigning P...<<<
That way no one could say "take a P"
Peace,
ANDEE
> >>>...not assigning P...<<<
> That way no one could say "take a P"
Speaking of No. 1, I was showing a foreign guest around NYC this afternoon... and damn the limos, I bring them on the Subway and they always have a blast.
So anyway she asked me about the signage for the Men's and Ladies rooms, which of course no longer existed except for the mosiacs from the 1910's and later, AFTER finding that the door was padlocked with a rusty one that hadn't been opened in years... she asked, "What does the City Government expect people to do, "go" on the tracks? Smells like it!"
Well, I went into my long explanation of how government authority and responsibility is often delegated to bureaucracies outside government, in order to get around the system of checks and balances, and public elections. She (being an artist and not terribly interested in politics) was astonished and said that in Poland the Communists weren't allowed IN the government any more!
Well there you have it.
This weekend you were.
Why is it that you want to come up with crazy schemes to satisfy yourself and screw the customers?
If you proposed this as MTA chairman, you'd have to hire a skilled team of bodyguards first.
Why is any of this crazy?
I haven't screwed a single customer. Ideas have to come from somewhere. Why _not_ from the people who have experience?
Now how many customers have the TA bureaucracy screwed, simply by continuously shrinking the Subway system rather than growing it along with the growing numbers of customers and a growing city?
What in particular do you disagree with, and why?
Rienzi: Let me clue you in. American Pig likes to disagree because he just likes to disagree. Don't take it too personally, though. He is a young guy, very intelligent, and he knows a hell of a lot about the subway for a guy so young. He is just a little contrary. Don't worry, the guy will grow on you.
Oh, that's OK... I don't expect people to agree with me. If so there's be no need to discuss, and things would be boring!
If I'm wrong, I want to see a refutation that convinces me, then I can learn something (for free!).
I admit that I have a long-standing resentment against transporation planners in general. I majored in economics and geography, with a concentration and interest in urban planning.... but never got to USE any of it, except as a cartographer for a few years which barely paid the rent. Today I'm a computer programmer, and have very little time to research these things, unless I can get some encouragement that it's the right way to go... it might be neat to get some media attention focused on the enormous wastage of urban land, and the possibilities inherent in its USE.
Cheers
I think we have a misunderstanding here, I'm calling Jeff's idea screwy, not yours.
He has always proposed that the BMT should go back to a numbering system, for no other reason than to bring back the old.
There's nothing wrong with bringing back the old, unless it's just for the sake of doing so and not for some improvement.
Ahhhh, I stand corrected.
Personally, they can call them "Pelham 123" for all I care, so long as they run often and fast!
Cheers
Rob
The subway primarily serves tourists and/or idiots who know little about the subway, and have the logical ability of a lemming. Can you imagine what having 2 different routes with the same number (even if they were different colors) would be like?
> The subway primarily serves tourists and/or idiots who know
> little about the subway
Well, to be honest I've stopped taking the Subway to work in Metrotech, and started driving. A door-to-door 45 minute commute has (since downsizing) turned into over an hour, and the crunch and the unreliability (and just the concept that it could take more than an hour to go from one end of Brooklyn to the other) have just become too much.
But the statistics say that I'm an anomoly, and that more and more people who work for a living have no choice but to crowd into the Subway every morning and evening.
Not that there's any threat to it happenning, but I say "no way" to returning the old BMT numbers. There's no good reason to throw out a good route identification system which everyone knows and uses, which is basically logical (if flawed when applied to the BMT) and bring back a system that hasn't been used for four decades, never really was in widespread use even back in its day (my dad grew up in the 1950's in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn and Briarwood, Queens near BMT lines and he had never even heard of the numbers) and was really fairly arbitrary.
And not to be too rude about it, but duplicating numbers on routes is a bad, BAD,/b> idea, regardless of differneces in color. Riders already get on the wrong trains on the wrong platforms as it is. Imagine how much worse it will be if there are two completely "4" trains.
:-) Andrew
Not that there's any threat to it happenning, but I say "no way" to returning the old BMT numbers. There's no good reason to throw out a good route identification system which everyone knows and uses, which is basically logical (if flawed when applied to the BMT) and bring back a system that hasn't been used for four decades, never really was in widespread use even back in its day (my dad grew up in the 1950's in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn and Briarwood, Queens near BMT lines and he had never even heard of the numbers) and was really fairly arbitrary.
And not to be too rude about it, but duplicating numbers on routes is a bad, BAD, idea, regardless of differneces in color. Riders already get on the wrong trains on the wrong platforms as it is. Imagine how much worse it will be if there are two completely "4" trains.
:-) Andrew
There wouldn't be two "4" trains. The BMT would have to pick up at 15 and go from there.
I agree things would not work out as well if they were all numbers. I mean "Take the 26 train" just doesn't have the impact and appeal as "Take the A train". Duke Ellington & Billy Strayhorn would roll over in their graves.
There wouldn't be two "4" trains. The BMT would have to pick up at 15 and go from there.
That's not the idea that #3 West End Jeff was pitching. His post suggeted restoring the BMT numbers AND retaining the IRT numbers, creating duplication between numbers which would only be distinguished from each other by color.
I agree things would not work out as well if they were all numbers. I mean "Take the 26 train" just doesn't have the impact and appeal as "Take the A train". Duke Ellington & Billy Strayhorn would roll over in their graves.
I think the modern route identification system is excellent. The combination of color with a single letter or single digit number makes the train very easily identifiable in a glance. It's one of the best things about today's subway over the subway of the past.
:-) Andrew
Its obvious how I feel!!
You're right!! Let's get rid of the letter "W" from the subways. That letter shall remain for the middle initial of our president whom I didn't vote for.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
That letter shall remain for the middle initial of our president whom I didn't vote for.
You and most of America (including myself).
Well I voted for him and HE is the PRESIDENT. The Constitiution outlined the way a president is elected and that was done, despite the attempt of the Florida Supreme Court to violate its own state laws to help Gore.
The Constitiution outlined the way a president is elected and that was done
I'm sorry, but you mistyped the word "selected."
This thanks to the successful plan by the Bush team to stop the clock and slow the process until nothing more could be done.
Sort of like being two points in the lead, and preventing the other team from ever getting posession until time is called.
It's impossible to determine at this point who actually won Florida.
Thanks largely to the Bush team's antics, the ballots in Florida that were counted despite being improperly cast outnumbers Bush's supposed lead in Florida. We can't know who those illegal votes were for, although most were in Bush-leaning counties (since the Bush team pushed for illegal votes to be counted in Bush-leaning counties while at the same time pushing for them to be thrown out in Gore-leaning counties -- yet for some reason the Gore team's attempt to consitently throw out all illegal ballots in all counties was widely criticized). If most of those votes were for Bush, then Gore actually received the plurality of valid votes in Florida.
We don't know who actually won Florida (and thus the election) according to the rules. We do know that (a) Gore almost certainly won the popular vote nationwide, (b) modulo Florida, Gore had more electoral votes than Bush, and (c) Bush was handed the presidency on a silver platter by means of a nonsensical ruling of the U.S. Supreme Court.
I don't blame Bush for taking it. I do blame the American people for falling for it. I guess the average American is no more intelligent than our illustrious president.
Very well said, and it is scary that anyone could be less intellegent than our alleged president. And you forgot to mention the numerous conflicts of interest in the Supreme Court case, such as the lawyer for Bush had many ties to Chief Justice Renquist. And Scalia making the arguements for the Bushies when they were stuck for any kind of a reason for the Supreme Cour to find a "federal" issue to rule on.
Remember, the right wingers (mostly Bushites) are always complaining about federal intervention in "states rights" issues(that arguement goes back to slave days, "the civil war was not about slavery, but about states rights".)
Aw, you're breaking my heart with those crocodile tears of yours. The election is over, Bush is President. Get used to it.
The election is over
You mistyped the word "selection."
Bush is President. Get used to it.
And we have the Supreme Court to thank for such wonder of wonders!
Well, he is, Fred. Too bad we're not allowed to vote for the MTA, the DOT and every other faceless agency that makes most of the real decisions
as far as I know ,the U,X and Y trains were all slated for the Second ave line.U-Broadway,X-Queens Blvd and the Y-Second Av/Bronx
Are you sure of that?
#3 West End Jeff
So do I Jeff. A thousand times more. Yes, crapcan the letters and bring back the BMT numbers. A dream. But I can dream.
Fred stop living in the 50s when you moved to LA from Queens. This is 2001 and the MTA will not go backwards for a old man s dreams, especially a California Republican.
A California Republican and proud of it, but remember, a compassionate one, as you well know.
a compassionate [conservative], as you well know.
And a fondness for oxymorons.
You don't know me personally so you shouldn't come out with something so outrageous, inaccurate and stupid. Those who know me know better. Ask my friend Bob and he will give you the complete lowdown.
What ever Fred Says, do not believe him-----NOT
How about calling the Slant Q the "Q1" and the Circle Q the "Q2"?
wayne
...and calling the sea beach the 4Q. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
(#1 Brighton Line )would be unuseable
if this numbering system was used you would give #1-15 to the Irt, 16-30 to the Ind, 31-45 to the Brt/Bmt
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!! That is exactly what I would like. In fact, I think I would bribe the MTA if they could do this and make my Sea Beach the 44 train. That is my favorite number, and my baseball room is deluged with that number all interspersed with my teams that I coached in baseball. Wouldn't that be a hoot? Great suggestion.
What's the point of this change for the sake of change?
Does it help the MTA improve service in any way?
The A, F, and R cross IND-BMT lines, as do the B and D when the Chrystie Street connection is functioning. What do you do with them?
[Where's the Second Avenue Line? Where's the crossover from the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to both the Sixth and Second Avenue Lines?]
Umm, maybe you're not aware of this, but the Second Avenue Line exists as only three short sections that were built before the city ran out of money in the 1970s. Maybe you have some sort of magic that can get it built in less than an eternity?
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[How about a loop line like in London, running from the 63rd Street tunnel east to the GG, over the underused GG south to Hoyt-Schmerhorn, then turning north over the F line into Manhattan, and up Second Avenue? We'll call this loop line the T train. As in Boston, when you want to get somewhere in a hurry, you take the "T".]
The GG? Where have you been hiding? As you should be aware (just look elsewhere on nycsubway.org), the double letters went out with the 1980s.
Also, as you should be aware, there is NO track connetion from the Crosstown Line to either 63rd Street or the Rutgers Street tunnel. (Do you have money to build them? Don't forget to budget for relocating sewer lines and acquiring peoples' basements.) Besides, the Manhattan part of the loop would be very well-used while the Brooklyn part (shared with the G) would be VERY underused.
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[The T train can operate on the completed center section of the Second Avenue line, while it it being extended both north over Second Avenue and then up Third Avenue in the Bronx, replacing the downsized Third Avenue line.]
As noted above, the Second Avenue Line has NOT been completed, and probably won't be in our immediate lifetimes. However, I do agree with sending it up Third Avenue in the Bronx.
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[South from Houston Street, a new line, let's call it the V, proceeds down Water Street, stopping at 111 Wall (slidewalk transfer to the two Wall Street IRT stations) and then looping about the Battery over the IRT tracks....]
Let's stop right there. As you clearly ARE aware, the wider B-Division equipment CANNOT fit through the narrower A-Division tunnels. If the tunnels were widened to B-Division standards, then A-Division trains would be precluded from stopping at the platforms.
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[...the next step is to start up the Y line by building a connection from the rebuilt Franklin Avenue Shuttle to the inner loop (the GG/T lines).]
1. The Franklin Shuttle's stations fit only two cars. That limits your "Y" trains to only two cars, which would lead to overcrowding.
2. The Franklin Shuttle Line is elevated at Fulton Street, while the Crosstown Line (your "inner loop") is underground. Have you budgeted sufficient funds to acquire property for the transition along Franklin Avenue? Have you done the preliminary engineering to determine the location of any intervening underground utilities?
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[By the way, in the short term, DeKalb Avenue needs to have completed a crossover from the Brighton Line to the third inner tracks that don't stop there, for rush hour. Currently, only the trains coming from Pacific Street can access the half/unused bypass tracks.]
Sounds like a good idea - and expensive to build.
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[I have long proposed an extension of the 2/5 IRT to a new Kings Plaza/Avenue Vee station, with a Park & Ride garage built on the abandoned industrial and commercial sites nearby.
The old terminus of the 2/5 IRT intersects with the new Cross Brooklyn Subway, the X Train. It wouldn't take much to build this, because a practically unused LIRR branch and right-of-way already exists there, and has been wasting prime urban land for decades, tax-free. In fact, Robert Moses proposed a Cross Brooklyn Expressway:
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/cross-brooklyn/
Instead, I propose a Cross Brooklyn Subway, starting with the X Train. The X when heading West loins up with the N and revived NX line, heading into Manhattan, just in time for the completed Manhattan Bridge renovation, when four tracks are open for the first time in I don't know how long.
Heading east to JFK airport, the X and its stations follow the tracks and right-of-way along Conduit Boulevard and Linden Boulevard, finally making a loop underneath the terminals before screaming its way back in the other direction.
A possible future variant of the X is to continue north, intersecting with the terminal A station, Parsons, before heading into Manhattan that way as a super-express. that way, the X can be run as a gigantic loop in both directions, and should be called the "O" rather than the "X".]
You've figured out where and how to dig AND secured funding for all of this, right?
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[Queens people should decide (not TA planners who ride in helicopters and police cars out to the Hamptons) whether to make the Cross-Brooklyn O train the "0" (zero) train (IRT) and run it from Parsons to 74th Street and then over the under-used 7 line to 8th Avenue in Manhattan, both relieving congestion in the rush hour, and providing a way to get to JFK from their neighbourhoods without driving in bad traffic.]
1. Have you conducted original research verifying that ALL Transit planners "ride in helicopters and police cars out to the Hamptons"? Please share your evidence or withdraw your statement. (Besides, Transit doesn't pay its planning staff enough to afford Nassau County, let alone the Hamptons.)
2. Which specific "Queens people" get to decide? Or would the issue be put to a ballot? If a ballot, who decides which alternatives are listed?
3. Since when is the #7 ever UNDER-used? It carries well enough to warrant 8-minute headways at midnight!!
4. Again I ask: How to pay for all of this?
5. Again with mixing A- and B-Division equipment, tunnels, and stations. The dichotomy exists (unfortunately), so please stop assuming it away.
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[Hmmmmm? Comments? Or is this just a dream...?]
You're dreaming.
Notice that I've mentioned money quite a few times - it's one of those inconvenient realities of life that must be factored into ANY proposal (or set of proposals) such as yours.
Good response, some real substance here.
First, about the money. Have you looked at the growing numbers of subway users over the years? Is an aging infrastructure worth continued, large scale investment, in your opinion? Or should it be let go and even downsized, as it is today? The TA's new hub-and-spoke system, optimizing trains for the TA instead of the commuter, breaking up long lines into short shuttles with bottlenecks where everybody has to change, is sheer insanity. How much does all that time wasted cost to the business economy as a whole, not to mention to the family?
When this money can be quantified, it can be weighed against the amount of public investment it would take to do resume system expansion. Heck, SOMEBODY's building an elevated line from La Guardia to JFK... and I don't think for a minute that the TA have the vision to think of it! But the very fact that things like this were always done and are still being done, proves that it could be done.
And to me the existence of all that practically unused land in Brooklyn, where Robert Moses proposed the Cross Brooklyn Expressway, is a huge rip-off of the public. Why should the LIRR get to use that land as a tax-free investment? It should be taken from them, if they can't develop it for public transportation.
You've mentioned some of the things that would have to be done... In my opinion the money exists: both productivity and taxes are at an all-time high. Where does all this money go? Why were we well able to do these difficult things from the beginning through the 1960's? What changed?
One of the maps that's needed is a map of existing tunnels, perhaps shading in yellow the tunnels, roadbeds and that can't accept the wider trains, in red where there's a roadbed where the right-of-way exists but isn't yet equipped to take ANY trains, or has been abandoned or converted to occasional freight usage (such as the Cross Brooklyn Subway), and in green the ways that are ready today or nearly ready, given some renovation. That would enable us to look at the problems of system expansion a little more realistically. For example, your short platforms on the old Brighton Line (today the Franklin Shuttle) would have to be lengthened, or become local stops. But there's nothing in the way, except lack of investment.
Ideas?
Anybody know of cheap or shareware mapping software? I see on www.nycsubway.org that a gentleman has remapped many of the historical maps. Does anyone have an eMail address for him? Thanks!
Cheers
I don't think "Gotham Bus Co." is against system expansion. Rather, he's pointing out that there is a finite amount of money available from all sources (federal, state, city, fares, bonds, etc.) for all projects, both transit-related and otherwise. We've had many discussions on this board about where money goes as opposed to where we, as transit buffs (some of whom are also transit professionals), think it should go (to wit, transit), but that tends to go off-topic very quickly.
Anyone in the MTA service area who wants the system to receive enough money to continue rehabilitation and expand as well, should make some noise with his or her elected officials. Since there also tends to be a "NIMBY" ("Not In My Backyard") attitude in this city about major projects, support for expansion projects has to be garnered on the grass-roots level in the communities as well. It should be remembered that the subway system (including the elevated sections that are still around) was basically in its present form by 1940 and was a CAUSE of development in the areas it served, not a RESULT. There were few people around to object and relatively few properties (especially built-up ones) to be taken. As to what happened in the 1960s and beyond, by the 1960s the city and state were paying out more than they were taking in; they were also deferring maintenance on infrastructure to save money. By the mid-1970s, there was no money left, both the state and city were near bankruptcy, and poorly maintained infrastructure was falling apart. Since that time, the emphasis in capital spending has been primarily on replacing/rehabilitating outmoded infrastructure. Speaking from a transit perspective, only now is the system getting to a point where thought can be given to expending capital funds on system expansion (beyond small stuff such as the 63rd Street Connector).
David
[I don't think "Gotham Bus Co." is against system expansion. Rather, he's pointing out that there is a finite amount of money available from all sources (federal, state, city, fares, bonds, etc.) for all projects, both transit-related and otherwise. We've had many discussions on this board about where money goes as opposed to where we, as transit buffs (some of whom are also transit professionals), think it should go (to wit, transit), but that tends to go off-topic very quickly.]
Thanks, David. You've explained my concerns far more eloquently than I could have.
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[Anyone in the MTA service area who wants the system to receive enough money to continue rehabilitation and expand as well, should make some noise with his or her elected officials. Since there also tends to be a "NIMBY" ("Not In My Backyard") attitude in this city about major projects, support for expansion projects has to be garnered on the grass-roots level in the communities as well.]
NIMBY and its cousin LULU ("Locally Unacceptable Land Use") have long been rallying cries for those who want "it" to be built, but not in their neighborhoods. Unfortunately, both have evolved into BANANA ("Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody") as more and more "activists" choose to oppose "it" altogether - and at all costs.
Thanks guys, and sorry for the slow response.
I get the gist of your acronyms... and am wondering what would stimulate development. As an avid motorist (and racer) I'm still in favour of Subway construction over expressway construction, and I'll get into my reasons later.
To the other point, if urban development (or even redevelopment) can be thought of as an effect rather than a cause of rail construction, THEN wouldn't any infrastructural investement pay for itself in increased tax revenues?
Or would the investment be realized only in the form of increased ground rents?
You certainly have a hook for catching these people. Look at the number of responses! Most of them, as you may know, are off topic, anyway involving pretty girls and restaurants, but I guess if David Pirmann doesn't seem it negative to the community, I guess he'll let this thread go on until it ends....
Railfan Pete.
That always happens when you have a bunch of guys recalling their pasts....
You do realize that you just started an off-topic thread...
...with a totally different subject.
Railfan Pete.
every deli has a subway station within walking distance in NYC
So there are no delis on Staten Island, or in large portions of Queens, among other areas in Brooklyn, Bronx and even MANHATTAN?
I think you switched your nouns in that sentence.
Here it is
Peace,
ANDEE
...oops I mean number.
Two photos in today's Newsday (from AP) also show R26 #7815 and R28 #7870; with R36ML #9545 already in the water.
wayne
The "wishing tokens, one each for BMT, IND and IRT" was a nice touch. I guess our electeds weren't so sure of where these redbirds ran. Kinda hard to tell in a limo. :)
So transit officials first explored the idea of donating the cars to a somewhat needier subway system. They literally called around the world, talking to Romania, Hungary, China, Brazil, India, Pakistan and Turkey...
Brazil definitely doesn't need any crappy ass cars from NYC, none of their systems are "needy." All of them are several times more modern than NYC. All of the systems there are 30 years old or less.
TRAPPED like rats. What gets me is the 3 people who walked into it even with 5 people already trapped telling them not to...real gems.
Peace,
ANDEE
And what idiot calls the Post on his cell phone instead of 911?
"And what idiot calls the Post on his cell phone instead of 911? "
Silly! 911 is for *emergencies*.
Thank You for calling 9-1-1, if this is an emergency, press 1 now....
Hello and Welcome to the Springfield Rescue Phone. If you know the name of the crime being committed...Press 1. If you would like to choose from a list of crimes...Press 2. If you are currently being murdered or are dialing from a Rotary phone stay on the line.
::Beep::
Please enter the three digit code of the crime right now.
::Beep, Boop, Beep::
You have selected...Regicide. If you know the name of the king or queen being murdered...Press one.
No shit, 911 is doing this now.
-Hank
Have we, as human beings, reached the level of stupidity where we have to follow a prescribed procedure to call for HELP????
As for the straphangers, all I can say is "Only in NY."
I called 911 when someone fell off my apartment building (6th floor). Yup I went through a recording before I got to a human. Good thing the guy was dead and didn't need help right away.
First response from the FD didn't happen until 6 minutes AFTER I got to the operator who then had to wait with me on hold as she patched in EMS operator just to tell me not to move the body (no Sh*T).
Though my training is out of date 10 years or so (First Response) I could tell from 10 feet away by the amount of blood on the ground that the guy was beyond any mortal assistance.
My mother made the mistake of calling 911 instead of the local ambulance company when my father fell and needed to go to the hospital. It was a Saturday morning in a South Jersey suburb and 5 police cars, 3 ambulances and 2 fire trucks showed up.
Out here you dial 9-1-1 if you want the ambulance. Because they are the only ones who can call my pager. Our Ambulance Squad (one rig, 10 voulnteers) covers about 700 square miles. Last run I was on was about a 26 mile drive to the patient's house. (Dirt roads half the way, and part of that *was* in the next county.)
Well.... at least the 9-1-1 system isn't overburdened out here.
(But it *is* a LOOOOONG wait for a subway train) : )
Elias
The problem is that 911 has been swamped with non-emergency calls. The 'press 1' is a new thing to weed out the noise complaints.
My worst 911 experience was when I witnessed a man faint at a bus stop. I called 911, and gave them the relevant info. They asked for a better location. They told me the streets I gave them DON'T INTERSECT! The whole time, I'm looking at the street signs. Finally I just told them to patch me through to the fire department. THEY knew where I was.
-Hank
Ah! Another example of GIGO. Who programmed that computer?
You didn't happen to be standing at the intersection of Fourth St. and 10th Street in Greenwich Village, did you? At least then they'd have a semi-legitimate excuse...
And what idiot calls the Post on his cell phone instead of 911?
He probably forgot the number.
"Hello, 411...What's the number for '911'?" - from Son of the Beach
And The Simpsons, and any number of joke books.
-Hank
Chances are these days, telephone information will give him the wrong number...
Worse than that, calling 911 from a cellular phone may connect you to the wrong 911 service. In the NY metro area, the 911 centers should DEFINATELY have a tie line to other metro area 911 centers. (ie, in Bayonne, a 911 cellular call is likely to get routed to Newark or New York. NYC solution to the problem is to give out the LOCAL PD complaint number. You get connected to a desk sargent!
-Hank
Same problem here in Charm City. I live right on the border between Baltimore City and Baltimore County, the border is, believe it or not, my back fence. Anyway, a while ago I had to call 911 for a problem. The City 911 insisted I was in Baltimore County (I pay City taxes, so I must live there, and I have a city phone number) and actually transferred me to the County 911. They were very understanding (apparently this happens quite often in the border areas) and re-transferred me to a City 911 Supervisor - who did dispatch the right equipment to the right area.
In England 911 is 999 >G<.
(pointless fact #2343)
I always thought that America's decentralized design functioned a lot more efficiently than England's centralized design -- but apparently not. In London, 999 are periodically overloaded and calls aren't answered immediately; decentralization will solve this problem but only if the adjacent 911 services can handle calls for each other without having to re-route them. This principle is known as distributed processing.
Lexcie
>>> And what idiot calls the Post on his cell phone instead of 911? <<<
He would have been an idiot to call 911. That was not a situation which warranted a call to 911. 911 is supposed to be limited to potential life threatening emergencies.
Tom
I would call being trapped in a subway exit with no way out a life-threatening situation.
-Hank
Have you never seen NYC Subway rats? Those people wouldn't have survived overnight.
>>> Those people wouldn't have survived overnight. <<<
There was no reason for them to stay overnight. A phone call to the local precinct non-emergency number, or to the TA would have gotten them out, without burdening 911.
People have a strange idea of what constitutes an emergency. One morning when I was sailing in a near zero visibility fog, I heard a Mayday call from a weekend skipper in a stinkpot. The Coast Guard answered and the conversation went something like this:
CG: "What is the nature of your emergency? And what is your position?"
Skipper: (with near panic in his voice) "We don't know where we are, we are lost in the fog."
CG: "Are you taking on water?"
Skipper: "No."
CG: "Then what is your problem?"
Skipper: "We don't know where we are, and we are running low on fuel, and some of my passengers are getting seasick."
CG: "Can you hear surf or a foghorn?"
Skipper: "No."
CG: "Then turn off your engine until the fog lifts. We will check with you every hour."
Sure enough within two hours the fog lifted and that skipper sheepishly reported he was just a few miles from his home port and was able to return to port without assistance. His idea of an emergency was just a normal condition that any sailor should be able to cope with by doing nothing.
Tom
Remember a similar situation in Subway Stories, somewhere in Brooklyn I believe? But how often does this actually happen?
So... The put up the new high turnstile exits, so that they could keep the exit open all night, but forgot to tell the night watchman not to close the gate any more.
Or maybe some kids came by with their own chain and closed the gate.
Seems to me they ought to *remove* the gate on the same day, at the same hour, that they put in the new high exit turnstyles.
Elias
Believe it or not, many HEET exits are closed at night!
classic. more darwin winners.
It's amazing how stupid most people can be. Well since most women want to be with tall guys, and there's no real reason for that, it really shows how high of an IQ these people really have. Just like those who hold doors, and get on a packed train when there's a more empty train right behind it.
People seemed to be attracted to danger (could this explain women's likeness toward big tall men?) so I guess they thought it would be cool to be trapped in a subway station. Then they got scared (just like all the women with broken wrists!) :-0
Gee, I never knew that there was only one degree of seperation between getting stuck in a station and the "fact" that most women want to be with tall guys.
If life were really like you say, I'd be getting laid every night. I'm 6 ft, "big, bad and tall" by your standards.
S'm I...
6ft..Asian.
women with broken wrists??????
Hey John Don't worry No one is against you, not even the tall guys that the chinks you like so much go for, they are all against me. So stop yappin about it you got nothing to worry about.
"Chinks?" C'mon, man ... that ain't right ...
CHINKS?
and um' what race are you?
So that I may insult you.
BTW. I AM CHINESE
I meant Seven...
Heh. No problem there ... I'm "redneck" ... well ... sorta. And not to worry, we're ALL mongrels here. Only rightful owners to the country are out on reservations, and not doing so great.
What's really amazing is how quickly a post can drift off topic into
misguided misogyny and, with Mr. Seven's response, unprovoked
ethnic slurs! Here's a suggestion to deal with your issues:
Elevator Shoes (oops, that belongs on ElevatorTalk)
P.S. ObInnuendo: If only Woody had his 69 key, none of this
would ever have happened.
Now your gonna start thread creap on what a 69 key is and all the things 69 stands for as well....
And if it does, Unca Dave will purge it - fast!!!
Bleah...
anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!anti-heightite!
And these geniuses will probably sue the TA.
I have a valid question, after all this:
(1) Why are those people called Straphangers? Does that mean they hang onto straps off a cliff, as in that they take unnecessary risks, or does this mean they hung on to the end of a subway car, "got off" at a station that was closed, and they tried unsuccessfully to exit?
(2) Why is it stupid to get trapped? My understanding was that this was entirely the TA's fault in that a gate had been locked shut when it shouldn't have been. While the five people were yelling at the other end (by the locked gate), the other three would have walked in only because they were at the turnstile end, probably quite far from the gate. I don't think they were stupid to walk into the trap.
(3) If that exit was locked shut, even if they didn't exit from the turnstile, they would still have had nowhere to go unless they board another train. So in any case they would have been trapped, although they might have had access to emergency phones if they had not gone through the turnstile. All they would have really needed to do was to wait until the next train comes, and get the T/O to alert somebody at the MTA.
Lexcie
Why are those people called Straphangers?
Straphanger is a generic term for a subway passenger, who (if standing) would hang on to a strap - originally of leather, now a loop of stainless steel - that hung from a bar below the ceiling.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They all hung directly from the ceiling, only on a bus do they hang from a bar.
Only the Redbirds still have them. I say good riddance.
I say good riddance [to straps].
So do I.
:-) Andrew
In todays (8/22/01) city edition Newsday, second page there is a pic of
Redbird cars numbers 7870 and 9545 being pushed of the barge into the Atlantic Ocean. Won't be long now before the R-142's rule the IRT.
As long as they can keep them running. I have faith in that.
The R -142's are here to stay! Our M-4's in Philly are holding down
the fort.
Chuck Greene
i dont think the ta would have the guts to displacd all the redbirds i think there going to leave at least 100-200 for extras just in case
No they will not. As I've said before and will say again, more R-142s will be purchased than there have ever been Redbirds.
The Redbirds are too old to remain in service. There is no way around that.
Too bad, they would have made great diners!
;)
IMO they're a little to narrow to be really functional as diners. I could see the "B" Division cars used for that purpose.
I cannot believe that the number plates weren't taken off the cars and sent to the Museum Stores to sell. Seems stupid to throw away something you could get a few bucks for, but then we're talking about the MTA.
it was on channel 7 too the r142s rule the 6 allready and making itsway on my favorite line the #2
http://www.ny1.com/ny/NewsBeats/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=2&subtopicintid=5&contentintid=15578
Here's NY1's coverage which includes a VIDEO of one being pushed into the water. Byebye RedBirds!
There is even interest on this side of the Pacific, with this morning's Syndey Morning Herald (Friday 24 August) showing a picture of redbird 7870 (R 28?) going into the drink. It's not on the SMH website, though.
Today's Post has a picture and story, and today's Philadelphia Inquirer has a front page picture (showing a rather depressing shot of a car actually hitting the water) and story in the South Jersey edition.
The picture answered an earlier question of mine. The car bodies have been stripped of all equipment.
Not all equipment. According the the Times, they left the straps in place, as the marine plant life attaches to as many hard surfaces as it can. Odd they left the window frames in.
-Hank
Wouldn't the wildlife chew on the walls and eventually expose asbestos? D'oh!
Asbestos is only dangerous when airborne
Peace,
ANDEE
If not, do you think the fish can sue in 20 years for exposure?
The answer to that is a scientific NO.
-Hank
Looks like the grids remained too, though they got crushed on the edge of the barge from the looks of the pictures.
Here's a link to an article in the Baltimore Sun. There's also a front-page appearance of the AP photo.
"Baltimore Sun" Redbird article
Thanks for the link.
Only one thing puzzles me. I thought that heavy metal things had VALUE as scrap metal, not liability.
Can anybody explain?
. I thought that heavy metal things had VALUE as scrap metal, not liability.
Can anybody explain?
The cost of removing the asbestos is greater than the value of the recovered metal.
The asbestos issue is what Joe Hoffman had nothing to say about in the article. Joe is no enviormentalist. He would have never thought of re-cycling these cars were it not for the fact that it would actually COST the TA big bucks to scrap them because of the asbestos issue. I've said it before and I'll say it again: all this amounts to is off shore dumping. At a certain point the salt water will corrode these cars to the point that pieces may eventually wash up onto shore lines.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: all this amounts to is off shore dumping.
Tell me again, which university gave you your degree in oceanography? I don't remember you mentioning it.
Pigs -- I don't remember you mentioning a degree in oceanography, either...
I think that on-land disposal is probably more environmentally friendly, but in all honest MTA had no $ to do it and it's all the better that the $16 million saved could go into maybe 5 new subway cars to relieve peak hour congestion...
I think that on-land disposal is probably more environmentally friendly
On the contrary, the redbird reefs will increase marine life. Redbird landfill does nothing.
John
Only one thing puzzles me. I thought that heavy metal things had VALUE as scrap metal, not liability.
Can anybody explain?
Asbestos insulation would have to be removed if the Redbirds were cut up for scrap. Removal costs probably would exceed the value of the scrap metal.
Why the issue about scrapping, asbestos removal, recycling, reselling the cars to other operators? Were the R26,28,29,33 and 36's (both versions) made with more asbestos than any other car before them?
Joe C
The Composites had lots and lots of asbestos. So much so that they had to be doused with gasoline or kerosene when it came time to scrap them. They would not catch on fire otherwise.
The Baltimore Sun has a front page picture of 7870 (newspaper photos are not real good on details) being pushed off the barge by a bulldozer. The photo was credited to a Sun photog, but considering the press mob, just about anybody was there. An article appears on Page B1.
the pic is also in today's NY newsday.
Same pic, or one of dozens taken by all the press there. The sun pic was copywrited by the sun, so I suspect what was in Newsday was taken by somebody from there.
Today there was a news story of the submerging of the redbirds on wbz 4 boston. They shown footage of the submerging.It was sad. I never ever rode on a redbird.
". They shown footage of the submerging.It was sad. I never ever rode on a redbird."
They're still running them. There's still time to do so.
Bill "Newkirk"
Kersplash!!
At the Pavonia/Newport station, work on the side platform has begun in earnest. They have made a "temporary workroom" on the south end of the side platform. Most likely this is for the installation of an elevator, escalator, or stairs at the south end.
At WTC, they appear to be refurbishing the "tunnel of advertising" that's between the mezzanine and the bank of escalators.
I'm thinking of riding an N down to where ever I see the R143...And if I don't see it, then I'll take it down to Nathans, anyways, would it be there now? Or do they test evening rush/late nite...Thanks!
The R-143 trainset was sitting on the Sea Beach express track this afternoon around, oh, 1:30 or so, just south of New Utrecht Avenue. It wasn't going anywhere. NOT IN SERVICE on the side signs (which appear to be colorable).
Middays this week, you can take the W if you prefer; it's running via the N. (Local, since the express track is blocked.)
Since I'm allergic to "Hot Dogs"..
I go to West 4th st station, go up on the West 3rd street exit, make left, make right onto Macdougal and walk down to Yataghan Kebab House. Yummy Doner kebabs :)
The Ultimate Railfan food for me. I guarantee you don't have to eat for hours afterwards.
Hot Dogs are like Chinese food. 20 minutes later you're hungry again. (By that time its too late..you're on the W, N, F, or Q...
Since I'm allergic to "Hot Dogs"..
I go to West 4th st station, go up on the West 3rd street exit, make left, make right onto Macdougal and walk down to Yataghan Kebab House. Yummy Doner kebabs :)
The Ultimate Railfan food for me. I guarantee you don't have to eat for hours afterwards.
Hot Dogs are like Chinese food. 20 minutes later you're hungry again. (By that time its too late..you're on the W, N, F, or Q...)
Well, if you want something that will not make you hungry after 20 minutes try some White Castle Hamburgers (at least 6 of them).
I guarantee that you will know that you ate them for at least 3 days afterwards. What is worse is you will still want to have them.
White Castles are good too.
Doner Kebabs/Real Gyros are better.
Suppose you are allergic to Kababs??
Then have a Chicken kebab.
You must be allergic to beef and Lamb then..
White Castle has a taste particular to it. If you have a hankering for that taste on a given day, you will not get it elsewhere.
McDonalds, similarly, has a taste particular to only McDonalds. If you like it and want it, that's where you get it.
In my opinion (and you are free to disagree), Wendy's and Burger King and Roy Rogers offer up nice, tasty burgers but they taste like each other and that is not that different from a diner's burgers. In other words, they are not very unique.
White Castle has another advantage: because the chain does not put a very oily sauce on its burgers, as McDonalds often does, they are lower in fat (assuming the grade of lean beef is similar). Also, you can have one small White Castle burger, for the taste, and not worry that you've just killed your low-fat diet.
White Castle has a taste particular to it. If you have a hankering for that taste on a given day, you will not get it elsewhere.
It's sometimes claimed that White Castle uses beef liver* in its burgers, but in fact that's not true. What produces its unique taste is the cooking method. A mixture of water and chopped onions - onion soup, basically - is ladled onto a hot grill, and the burgers are dropped onto the boiling mixture to steam rather than fry. Tiny holes in the burgers facilitate the steaming process.
* = or, sometimes, worm.
It's sometimes claimed that White Castle uses beef liver in its burgers, but in fact that's not true.
At one time it was, however... FDA regs forced the change in the '60s, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
anyone ever have the opportunuty to compare white castle and krystals [a chain in the south that emulates white castle]? as far as i know, nashville is the only place with both.
Doner Kebabs? Any relation to the Donner Party?????????????
Hardy har har...
Don't think so..
Doner (Turk.)= To Rotate.
Extra "n" in Donner nope.
there i sonly one way to spell Doner in Turkce.
I'll still stick to my Nathan's fix every time I go to CI - I usually ballast the order of two dogs with a LARGE order of gooey Cheese Fries and slap mustard and kraut on the dogs to keep 'em quiet. Then it's off to the "Q" (if it's a weekday) or the "N" or "W" if it's a weekend for me.
wayne
>>> I usually ballast the order of two dogs with a LARGE order of gooey Cheese Fries and slap mustard and kraut on the dogs to keep 'em quiet. <<<
Now I understand why there was such a long thread about Subway rest rooms. :-)
Tom
Well, my trip down to Nate's last Thursday went exactly as planned - two real good dogs (no kraut this time), nice & crispy but tender inside, hot, salty fries with gobs of cheese, and a quick hop over to the supermarket on the south side of Surf for a 1-liter Diet Pepsi. I waddled up the ramp to the "W" train fully ballasted and the ride to ASTORIA took ONE HOUR AND TWENTY-TWO MINUTES!!!!! Ugh! Phooey! We got beat by just about every local that came up alongside of us. Even the "N" local that was ahead of us in Queensboro Plaza beat us to Ditmars. It was a pathetic performance.
wayne
I wonder what that poor guy on 1277 had for lunch on that fateful day...
I would think it had to have something dairy in it; the smell was overpoweringly SOUR!!! Bhlecccchhhh!!!
wayne
Well, it was stiflingly hot, what with the heat on in the car and all. IMHO nausea always has a sour odor to it.
You had to be there, folks.
I have my own new railfanning tradition: no more rides on the Concourse express run. Too boring.
LOL..
Greetings from another South Bender...
You remember me?
Forgot my old Username and password completely, got a new one.
Weren't you R-36 fan or something like that? If so, you were in South Bend after we had left.
Yeap that was me...
I haven't for a long time and then I lost my old username and password.
Yeah, but it paid well ... and you could count on your clock out time.
With all due respect, it was more exciting with the R-32s, R-42s and that one train of R-10s. Never did ride on a Coucourse express of old timers.
I understand ... I did get a 32 run ONCE on a northbound. I preferred the way the 9'ers ran myself. Remember, when you're a foamer, the thrill is the ride and the speed. When you work there, the thrill is when the eagle sheets biweekly. Those old cars ensured a phat check. :)
32 mph on the old timers was about, oh, E above middle C in terms of bull and pinion gear sound. The R-32s and R-42s didn't do too badly, and even that train of R-10s I got once strutted its stuff. But let's face it: the concourse express run couldn't hold a candle next to the CPW racetrack.
You're absolutely right: speed had everything to do with the thrill. Especially on that downhill runaway between 50th and 42nd southbound on the A. Terrifying with the R-10s.
By "32's" I meant R-types - did a few runs in them post-school car though they were hard to get since there were so many people on the railroad that really didn't want to go out in the oldsters. Seniority (or wonderfullly good timing) was the only way to get one of the newer cars. And yes, the long straight dash was something - the concourse express run was both hilly and curvy and the timers would chill your jets south of 170th ... but it wasn't a bad run at all. I felt sorry for the guys who did the CC run ... just as you started gaining some speed, it was time to stop again. :)
Straight from the horse's mouth, the updated details are at the NJ TRANSIT web site.
I've had a few calls regarding the last rides. My advice is DO NOT AIM TO GET ON THE FINAL "LAST RIDE"! Just show up! You'll get the experience no matter when you get on during the "last ride" period.
The "last rides" have to be done by 10 PM so the crews can go to work on the final changeover in preparation for LRV service Monday morning.
Hope to see you all Friday night!
Michael Klufas
NJ TRANSIT Public Information
Thanks, Mike from NJT for posting the info! As a major contributor to the site it is nice to have NJT working with us.
Please e-mail em off-site for some questions I have on a forthcoming feature page on NJT.
I found this post at the Railroad.net website. Thought you guys would find it of interest (from Newsday):
'5 Found Atop Train Car
Tom Demoretcky
August 21, 2001
Three men and two women were arrested yesterday on charges of riding on top of a westbound Long Island Rail Road car on a train bound for Jamaica, a spokesman for the line said last night.
LIRR spokesman Sam Zambuto said the arrests were made in Seaford about 2:20 p.m. by MTA police. Zambuto declined to identify the three men and two women, but said they were in their early 30s.
Zambuto said the train was the westbound 11:25 a.m. Montauk to Jamaica train, scheduled to arrive in Jamaica at 2:07 p.m. There were no injuries and the five were charged with criminal trespass.'
Copyright © 2001, Newsday, Inc.
I assume this DOESN'T qualify as 'subway surfing' since no subway was involved...
BMTman
Sounds like an extraordinarily bad idea (not that subway surfing is a walk in the park). Hanging on for dear life on a high car for considerable distances ar 70+ MPH?
I remember a story of some pranksters that climbed on top of a private car at Penn Station to scare the occupants. They got roasted instead by the catenary. Clearly they thought that Penn Station was only
3rd rail.
Michael
<< I remember a story of some pranksters that climbed on top of a private car at Penn Station to scare the occupants. They got roasted instead by the catenary. Clearly they thought that Penn Station was only 3rd rail. >>
Another group of "rocket scientists" that were in fact nothing more than morons pissing in the gene pool.
They must be copying a stunt that happens regularly among teenage boys in Brazil, who "surf" atop trains on busy commuter lines, often right next to the pantograph and catenary! The kids do it for machismo, but many wind up electrocuted the instant that they touch the overhead, which is at a much higher voltage than what is found on the Northeast Corridor lines. Anything to prove something to a knucklehead.
DARWIN AWARD ALERT !!
Those knuckleheads were lucky to be taken in at Seaford. West of Seaford is a signal bridge..........BONG!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> Three men and two women were arrested yesterday on charges of riding on top of a westbound Long Island Rail Road car on a train bound for Jamaica, <<<
Maybe they are Indian immigrants who will be able to plead a "foreign culture" defense. :-)
Tom
I found a few more Redbird photos taken on 8/16/01 by the Associated Press.
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=redbirds&c=news&n=20
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news_photos?n=20&p=subway
<< A worker steam cleans the interior of a decommissioned "Redbird" subway car Thursday, Aug. 16, 2001, in New York. >>
Too bad the TA didn't do this while the cars were in service!
Ooo! Can we push Bernie Goetz off the barge too?
Well, if he dies, then there would be nobody whose salary can be garnished to pay that dumbass that got everything he deserved except for a lawsuit payoff.
The poor redbird is drowning!!! SAVE IT!!! SAVE IT!!! CPR!!!
It looks like they are leaving the horns on. Does anyone have any SCUBA gear?
Heck. I wanna know where all the roll signs are??? I could use a few in my apartment right about now.
Joe C.
"Heck. I wanna know where all the roll signs are??? I could use a few in my apartment right about now.
Joe C."
In the dumpster, which was unloaded by now.
Bill "Newkirk"
This wouldn't have happened if the Redbirds had been sold to, say, Sarnelli's Scrapyard. There would have been signs and other souvenirs galore.
poor redbirds why damnit so many memories keep at least 100-200 of them
There, There. They all have to go sometime.
I don't know if the TA can keep 100-200 cars on hand for very long with all the new equipment coming in. I am sure a few of them will become work cars.
"poor redbirds why damnit so many memories keep at least 100-200 of them"
Gee, how will we react if the R-44s meet the same fate as the Redbirds ? Kleenex anyone ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The R44? Pooh. It's the Slants I will mourn when they go.
wayne
Yes... when the slants go, I'll need new favorite cars... 4284 4177
I'm kind of partial to #4246 myself; plus #4310-11 (movie stars!), and #4332 (nicknamed "Fernando" after one of my guitars whose serial number matches that car), plus Eastern Div. favorites #4412, #4444, #4436-7 (pair), #4406-7 (pair) and #4399 one fast Slant.
wayne
You'll be wearing a black armband, for sure. How about the R-42s made famous in The French Connection, 4572-4573? Maybe they'll let Gene Hackman do the honors.
As for when the time comes for the R-44s, one song comes to mind: Happy Days Are Here Again.
I saw #4572-73 July 28 it was in service on the "L" shuttle, in the middle of one of the carsets; they had a GO going the "L" was split in two pieces (8 Ave to Myrtle and Eastern Parkway "J" platform to Canarsie, yes they DID use the #14/"JJ" connector both ways).
I'm heading out for the PCC trip today (I'll be taking the 11:06 out of Babylon) If I see that pair in my travels I will make note of it.
wayne
Instead of Playing when they meet their final end. They'll just play the "bing bong" of the doors closing over and over until they're fully submerged!!!! lol!!!
Now modulate the "bing bong" with the sound of air bubbles "Sea Hunt" style, and we'll have a magical soundtrack ... "blub-blubong" ...
damnit papertowel
All I can say is that I hope the TA knows what they're doing. Ridership is at an all time high and they're throwing subway cars into the sea? As it stands, there aren't enough trains running now. The TA scrapped the R30s just before the boom of the MetroCard and now the supply can't meet the demand. Trains are packed.
Oh, well. Thanks for the memories, Redbirds.
You have to be realistic. The Redbirds have reached the end of their useful lives. They're not limping the way the R-16s were when they were finally put out of their misery; they've passed on due to natural causes. Now the Triplexes, OTOH....well, you know how I feel about that issue.
Ditto for the GOH green R10s.
wayne
Yeah, they could have turned the wheels on those Thunderbirds and kept them around a bit longer. Maybe one lousy stinking set on the A?
What irks me is that the Triplexes were still running beautifully when they were slaughtered. What a waste. Never mind the fact that the TA wanted to standardize the fleet.
I feel the same way about the IRT LoV's
"you can't have love with LoV"
I feel the same way about the IRT LoV's
"you can't have love without LoV"
(Sorry my typing is horrible)
very depressing. however we have to move with the times.
i prefer to see them scrapped and recycles.
The Phila Inquirer, Metro and Channel 6 each covered the dumping of the cars over the past 2 days. Or did Rehoboth finally get its subway?
Besides the excellent article on Chicago and their token booth problem in the Chief of all places I put it out to you all.
Does light rail = OPTO = TWU antagonism
Will the TWU resist any new service that does involve OPTO.
Can you get more trains per hour if they are shorter via smaller signal blocks. If there was a conductor on watching a 300" trains doors close would that save a few seconds per station stop and allow more trains to go by?
and would people aprove a line that was NOT on 24/7 but mainly a way to get people to the CBD 20 hrs a day.
TWU will probably continue to put up a resistance to OPTO. But such resistance is futile. OPTO is technological. Just like the signal light relay. For the uninformed, the signal light relay(SLR), along with multiple unit door controls (MUDC) is why there is only one conductor per train instead of one between each car as was the case. There was a big outcry about safety along with job actions back then too. What came of it? One conductor per train.
The other piece of the pie is that whether NYCT gets to expand OPTO or not is up to the federal safety people. The number of drags is still too high. In the IRT the redbirds are responsible for over 60% of drags, because they do not have the sensors whcih the newer equipment has. Expect the TA to push the expansion of OPTO through soon after all the R-142 are running.
The TA will not adjust the size of the signal blocks in the traditional sense. But Communications based train control (CBTC) and the new technology command center will permit more trains per hour. It works on the principle of the computer establishing a "safe distance zone" behind each train. in other words the signal block moves with the train, as opposed to being in a fixed location.
"It works on the principle of the computer establishing a "safe distance zone" behind each train. in other words the signal block moves with the train, as opposed to being in a fixed location. "
Oh, kinda like Global Positioning IN A SUBWAY TUNNEL! : )
Elais
Heh. You know? I remember hearing that idea floated once. It'd take some MIGHTY low-flying satellites to pull that one off.
What I was thinking was the conductor does not ride the train, they stay in the station at an instation trip. Use CBTC to get all those extra trains moving and the conductor watches from the station itself at a position where he can activate a trip at the ends of the station in case of drags.
The TA gets some cuts, The TWU creates a job that will never go away. The public gets someone to yell at. The conductor gets to see the juvies sneaking up on him.
If you make this an UBER position Conductor/station agent you can also get rid some lunch relief.
Then you can do four/five car optos during off peak hours.
CBTC will not necessarily reduce headways that much. I'm not sure if this has been discussed on this board, so forgive my repeating if so.
My intuition is that it will not increase capacity very much at NYCT. A moving block in theory makes for shorter safe braking distances, but when compared to trip-stop wayside, I think all ATC systems must factor in a 3-second allowed computer response time (which extends the braking distance higher than before). Increases in capacity can be had by cutting platform track circuits in two, to allow the following train into the station sooner, but I think all of the stations with long dwell times have this feature already (making the margin of capacity improvement available for CBTC very small).
I don't think that was the motivation for a CBTC pilot anyways. I think that it is the long-term cost of wayside signal equipment that CBTC, or other advanced ATC technologies try to avoid (by simply having less of that equipment in the field). I don't have any figures to back that up, but that's what I hear signal engineers saying.
How will the new command center allow more trains per hour than at present?
You are right. We've been down this road on Subtalk a few
times, and the conclusion seems to be that CBTC will not
make a significant improvement in system capacity.
Let me comment on this article which was a good article.
New York is different than Chicago and even Philly--we have many cavernous stations. especially on the IND such as 23-Ely/Court Square, 51 on the 6/Lexington on the E/F, Fulton-Broadway/Nassau, Times Square (including connections to IND).There is also the huge, multi-level Canal Street Complex. Many IND stations also have extended passageways outside of the fare control, some of which feature bends or right-angles.
Except for City Hall. Philly stations are one level and yes, Philyl does have booths.
PATH has been brought up--it is true that PATH has no booth at their stations and I have stopped riding PATH late at night and weekends nights due to safety concerns and lack of response from PATH crew. people on the station help phones, and police.
During these times their trains are like a zoo- I have seen people swinging from side to side in the cars, smoking(including funny looking cigarettes) in front of a PA police officer, consuming booze, eating full dinners, very loud radios, indecent acts(this site is rated G!),etc.
At least we have a police force who will responmd and remove these people. If they block the turnstiles like I have seen at PATH, we can call police and they will be dispersed. PATH also has a problem during these hours of rampant fare beating where almost nobody pays the fare--even with a cop present!
Do you want this for the subway. Let's say they close the booths and we roam, what will stop a future NYCT idea of a central location only ("keep the employees safe by locking them in front of a remote camera monmitoring location.")
Many people do not remember that we had more booths than we do now- example: Jackson (2) uptown. Church/Flatbush to Flatbush, Halsey on the L had two more at the other end of both plats, 50 IND Manhattan had two at 51 and two at 52, the uptown 1 North of Dyckman had booths-- the station houses are still there! Nassau on the G had 3 more! I can go on and on.
To those favoring closings I reply with a quote from a famous philosopher:
"I may disagree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Please grant me the same courtesy. If anyone wants more removed booth locations e-mail me off-site.I base my info on my copy ofg the token booths telephone directory and noting the many missing numbers--ie Y18 and Y20 are are blue street.Where is Y19 (it was at Blue Street). I physically examined some of these locations and did fgind evidence of removed booths-some are still partially there such as 51 exit on the uptown C at 50th Street. I will not share this list with anyone so pleasde do not ask. The above Y18 example is made up. For safety I will not post a master list of booth numbers. Suffice to say that R is IRT and Astoria, N is IND and other letters are BMT. Some booths in stations with IRT and BMT or IND/BMT or IRT/IND or all 3 may not have the letter matching their location.
I did express my thoughts to PATH for inclusion in the public hearings on their recent fare hike.
I hope on your list you have almost every station with a mezzanine level and no cross overpoint or one at the far end of the station
Many such stations did have more booths than currently exist. There are also "tons" of sleaed crossovers and crossunders which were sealed due to crime concerns.
Can you get more trains per hour if they are shorter via smaller signal blocks.
The current block system does not use fixed length blocks. Block length is shorter where congestion is likely to occur, e.g. station approaches. The current system permits 40+ tph operation. Similar systems with similar equipment and signalling systems operate at 40 tph. NYCT does not have sufficient operating rolling stock to provide even 30 tph operation.
You can verify the current service level capacity by observing the signal light just beyond the front of any station. When there are no service delays, measure the time interval between from when the signal turns red as the train leaves the station until the same signal turns green. This time interval should be between 50 and 60 seconds. Trains operating at 90 second headways (40 tph) would always encounter green aspects.
If there was a conductor on watching a 300" trains doors close would that save a few seconds per station stop and allow more trains to go by?
Dwell time has a definite impact on service level capacity. There are several factors influencing dwell time that have a greater impact than the train length that a conductor controls. The biggest problem on the BMT-IND division has been the use of 75 foot cars which were not designed with a proportionate increase in door capacity over the 60 foot cars.
The current door closing procedure effectively involves closing both halves of the train in sequence. Two conductors each controlling half the train and looking in a single direction would cut the door closing time in half. However, current door open time is much less than 30 seconds in almost all stations. The current 27 tph operation is 133 second headways. Reducing door closing time by 5 seconds will not bring about 120 second or 90 second headways. There are other alternatives to decreasing door closing times, without increasing the number of conductors or increasing the risk of dragging passengers.
BTW, there are several fully automated systems (ZPTO) that work quite well, with better safety and headway performance than NYCT operations. The TWU would be opening a whole can of worms by linking safety or service level capacity to the necessity of keeping additional operating personnel.
Like the good soldiers they were, the Redbirds went to their final resting place still wearing their car numbers. They were always ready to serve.
RIP, Redbirds.
Amen to that. As their numbers out on the road dwindle, I'll really miss them. On a related note, I rode on two of the three Redbird trainsets still running on the number 6.
As I posted in another thread, why weren't the number boards taken off and sold at the NYTM gift shop? It would've been a great chance to get some more revenue into the museum and sell some nostaglia to railfans like us, but its the MTA we're talking about
There was nothing wrong with leaving the numbers on the cars. I think it is actually required for some legal reason (but I am not sure).
I liked seeing the cars go as complete as practical.
MY GOD THE TEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No joke, Tony. Most of the time the scrapping of cars is done with little fanfare. This time, it's front page news. For many regulars here this is the first time they saw a wholesale fleet get scrapped. It is kinda sad; many of us have fond memories of riding redbirds. All that's now left of the "old fleet," the traditional looking subway, is the R32s and 38s.
All that's now left of the "old fleet," the traditional looking subway, is the R32s and 38s.
At least the R32's will be around for many years to come, maybe another 15 to 20 years.
In transit, especially in New York, nothing it etched in stone. If the dollars are found and it is feasible, the R32's could be out in a heartbeat. So, don't bet the rent!
Joe C.
In transit, especially in New York, nothing it etched in stone. If the dollars are found and it is feasible, the R32's could be out in a heartbeat. So, don't bet the rent!
All right, how 'bout betting my next car lease payment?
Seriously, while you are correct that nothing is etched in stone, the MTA would have no good reason to get rid of the R32's even if there were plenty of funding. Their bodies are in excellent condition due to all-stainless construction, and as far as I know their MDBF numbers are good.
The R32s are great. There's really no problem with them. They're shiny, they're taken care of well, they still work, I like the WABCO brakes (what does it stand for? and does anything else have them?),they run on the N line, and I call them pringles... even though most pringles are w/o ridges... As for the redbirds, the tears do come. The first time I seriously crossed cars was on a SB 6 with a friend. GL redbirds...
WABCO=Westinghouse Air Brake Co.
With the new floors the R32's will be around quite a bit longer.
With all the debt they're running up they won't be able to scrap good cars, or bad ones. I'd say the R32s will be on the road until 2014 at least, and perhaps until 2025.
If transit continues to survive, and thrive, the R32s will be around until they become obsolete. That is, until there is CBTC on most of the B division, and unless it is cheaper in the long run to replace them than to retrofit them with CBTC and AC traction motors.
Nowadays Wabco stands for nothing since Westinghouse is dead.
That about the R32's is all very true. And I wish them long lives, indeed. But when shown they have the bucks to replace even a good set of cars (strike when the iron is hot)I believe any transit agency wouldn't hesitate for a moment to replace a fleet. Hard to believe the LIRR M-1's will be on the list soon, even with their impressive track records and good body conditions. And they are even younger than the R32.
Joe C.
Judging by the numbers of "odd couples" I've been seeing lately on the LIRR, I would bet that the culling of the herd has already begun.
Plus we don't know what's under that shiny skin; they could have carbon steel frames like their R42 cousins do.
wayne
The M-1s were not built with carbon steel, but they were built (or rebuilt) by GE. Judging from the fact that the R-32s rebuilt by said corporation are slated to be scrapped with the R-38s, I assume that GE does not do a very good job of keeping railcars (except for locomotives) on the road.
Another thing is that the FRA may have certain regulations which inhibit Metro - North and the LIRR from keeping cars out on the road too long. Or, it could be that the MTA does not want to go through the ordeal that it did back in the late 70s. You know, of running 1920s era steam cars on mainlines, and getting the Bronx cheer from the passengers that commuted on them.
The contract for the M-1s was awarded to General Electric, which then subcontracted the bodies to Budd. As for the supposition that the FRA is involved because of the cars' age, I submit that Metro-North's 1100s are older; Amtrak has dozens of "Heritage" cars that are older (albeit unpowered); DART in Dallas is running (rebuilt) RDCs from ca. 1950; and on and on. Moreover, with respect to the R-32s rebuilt by General Electric, the reason for their planned early retirement was defective air conditioning compressor cradles that resulted in the AC not being used; that situation is being corrected through the installation of new units, so I wouldn't bet on those 10 cars going out with the R-38s unless someone decides that they're too much like R-38s electrically/mechanically/pneumatically, they require parts that no other cars would use, and it's not worth the cost to make them like other cars.
David
Those R-32s are still all-stainless steel, something the R-38s are not.
Exactly, and that's a point in their favor. However, their guts may be more R-38 than R-32, and if they can't be maintained as they are or retrofitted to be more like other cars at a reasonable cost, then the decision may be to scrap them with the R-38s. The last official word I got was that the cars were to be treated as R-38s for replacement purposes, but that was before a decision was made to replace the air conditioning.
Best advice I can give is to wait and see.
David
I don' think your assumptions about GE are correct. The quality of GE's work is very good, whether loco or otherwise, though problems do sometimes crop up with subsystems (true of any manufacturer).
I don't even live in NYC and I have only ridden a redbird twice, and yet I understand the sentiment. Tony, if you had ever made a subway trip that meant anything -- taking the girl of your dreams home after a night out on the town, or at the movie theatre, you would understand. To most people (railfans are people too, believe it or not), this is what the subway/railroad meant to them. Happy memories of good times. The fact that you think it's funny to make fun of people's sentiments this way suggests that you are best suited to being a computer programmer for the rest of your life.
According to the Daily News today, police had to shut down a video shoot in the South Bronx on Saturday night because of the lack of proper permits. The shoot was moved on Monday onto the shuttle platform at GCT reducing shuttle service to 1 train between 8 and 11. LL Cool J and Jay-Z were involved as well. I'm sure the commuters getting off at GCT were thrilled.
Interesting. They didn't have a permit to do it in the South Bronx, yet they had one to do it in the subway.
WRONG! I work the PM tour on the shuttle. Service operated normally. All three tracks from 4:00 PM till 7:00 PM. The movie people then had track four while service continued as usual on tracks one and three. At 9:30 PM we would normally have secured track one. But at the request of the movie people we secured track three instead.
What do you mean by "securing" a track?
I guess he means closing down service on it.
rode the 7 last night times sq to flushing, at the front window of #9650. of all the trains passing in the other direction there was exactly ONE set of pelhambirds, #9526-7, running. earlier in the week i took the 7 and saw two other sets, 9536-7 and 9550-1. the scraplist indicates there might be as many as 26 of these cars on the 7, 22 ml's and 4 wf's. but there sure aren't 26 of them out on the road.
pretty good day for railfan windows, i also got 4552 on the J, and 3959 and 4118 on the A.
3959 and 4118 are both R-38s. The fact that they were running in A service is simply unexplainable.
We had R-38's a few Sundays ago on our trip to Far Rockaway. Obviously, we were happy to get the railfan window.
Based on my observations, about one-third of all "A" are R38 during rush and mid-day; on weekends it's about one-quarter.
Rarer still is the R32 Phase I on the "A"; I haven't seen one recently but I hear they do run occasionally.
wayne
I've been out photo-ing reds for the past few weeks. After several t/o's confirmed that many reds were gone, and in fact seeing it for myself, I gave up on the #6 and concentrated on the other mainline routes. Today, however, I saw a red train on the #6 with world's fair cars in the consist. I think I shall once again try shooting on the Pelham, starting tomorrow, regardless of the weather. By the way, any good locations on the #7 to shoot?
Joe C.
Try 45 Rd-CourtHouse Sq, QB Plaza, 33rd St, Woodside & 111st St.
Enjoy,
Paul
Thanx, guy! Appreciate it.
Joe C
update: 9546-7 was on the #7 today. i only rode from 74th to flushing so there were probably others.
As a native NY'er now living and working in Chicago, I have often noticed that the Chicago L's are significantly lower to ground level than the NY els I am familiar with (mostly the IRT in the Bronx.) The NY els rise further above the street, which is rather nicer esthetically, but less convenient for the millions who have to walk all those extra stairs. Does anyone know the history of the engineering and design trade-offs made by these two cities in this regard?
I'm not sure, but I heard that structurally, the old els in Manhattan were more similar to the Chicago Els. However, I'm a young fella and don't remember the Manhattan Els. One must also remember that the els in the Bronx now were basically build for the subway. They are not independant railroads like were in Brooklyn and Manhattan. I know that at some points, Bronx Els get higher. Check out the Pelham Bay line between Middletown Road and Westchester Square where the local tracks rise to make room for the yard leads. The hight is downright scary!
A good question and I don't have the definitive answer.
The first els in New York were much lower to the ground. An educated guess is that later els, including those built as extensions to the IRT subways and under the Dual Contracts were built higher for at least two reasons: to provide greater clearance for traffic and to allow controls (station houses) to be under the structures instead of platform level, thereby getting the twin benefits of having one booth per location serve both direction and also allow platform to platform transfers.
New York els are built over streets for the most part, while Chicago's "L"s are built over alleys or private property, notable exceptions being the Loop, Lake Street, and East 63rd Street. Chicago's station houses typically are at ground level, requiring only one agent to serve both platforms.
There is one notable exception - the Culver Line at Ave W & McDonald Ave. That's seems pretty low!
--Mark
Awww, come on. Why not a rude question? :-)
Seriously, I don't have any hard data to back me up, but I think George Foelschow's answer probably hit the nail on the head. IIRC, the typical overhead clearance under a Chicago "L" structure is about 13 feet or so. Most large semi trucks have trailers that are about 14 feet tall. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've seen the city try to extract one of those things from under the structure because of some truck driver who doesn't understand basic math (13 is less than 14) or physics (no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time).
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like a Boston Parkway - Storrow Drive - Clearly Marked NO TRUCKS. But every week it seems there is a picture in the paper of a truck with its roof peeled open like a tin of sardines. I guess you don't need to be literate to get a drivers license!
This weekend and next are the best times to see CRUNCHes on the Storrow Drive and Memorial Drive underpasses in Boston. U-Hauls bringing students to school have a way of being attracted to them, just like tornadoes are attracted to mobile homes, and rats are attracted to subway tracks (there! on topic!)
Heh, I'm very familiar with the section of Storrow Drive you mention.
One of the best spots for "crunch time" in downtown Chicago seems to be westbound Lake Street right around State Street. The L is pretty high as it crosses over the bridge and remains high for a couple more blocks. Then it gradually drops down to its regular height. Trucks have this incredible way of getting perfectly wedged under the el just where it drops those last couple inches.
There was a similar situation on the eastbound lower level of Wacker Drive, approaching Michigan Avenue from Lake Shore Drive. The newer section of Wacker has fairly tall clearances towards LSD, but just past Michigan the ceiling slopes down to about 12 feet or so. Back when I was working in the IBM Building on the river, I spent many lunch breaks watching as they slowly backed the truck up almost a half-mile to the Drive, bringing downtown traffic to a standstill in the process. The vertical clearances are being increased as part of the ongoing Wacker Drive reconstruction project, but I suspect they'll still be fairly low. There just isn't enough room down there.
Then there was the case a few years where a fully loaded cement truck overturned at the sharp curve on Lower Wacker right around Franklin Street. City crews had to bring in cutting torches, literally cut the truck into peices to remove it, and then scoop out all the spilled concrete before it set. I would have given anything to be a fly on the wall when the driver called his supervisor and explained the situation to him. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
David, wouldn't the Lower Wacker Drive approach you describe (heading toward Michigan from LSD) be westbound, not eastbound?
Oops, you're right. Typo on my part... Guess I was still thinking about eastbound Lake Street from the previous paragraph.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm not sure of the exact numbers but the Blue Line rises extremely high above the ground between Damen and Western. I would have to guess at least 40 feet, probably even higher though.
That's where it crosses over the defunct Bloomingdale railroad viaduct. There's a few other spots where CTA tracks rise high above a mainline railroad viaduct.
Another very high spot on the L is the so-called "Angel's Flight", where the Douglas trains branch off from the Congress tracks and rise high above the Eisenhower Expressway for a couple blocks before turning south at Paulina. The height of the L here is the normal height above regular street level, but since the expressway is in a wide open cut, you're actually about 30-40 feet above the ground. A similar situation occurs where the Englewood branch of the Green Line passes over the Dan Ryan Expressway.
Other high spots occur on the Orange Line, the Green Line, the Brown Line, and the Douglas branch of the Blue Line. Unfortunately, there's no stations at the "peaks" of any of these sections the way Smith-9th in NYC sits on top of the bridge over the canal. Paulina on the Brown Line is probably the highest stop on the CTA system, because it's near where the L crosses over the C&NW viaduct.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't forget the Yellow(Skokie-Swift) line over the North Shore Channel east of McCormick Blvd. The Orange(Midway) between Midway International Airport and Pulaski, and where it crosses Western Ave. and Archer where you can get one of many very good views of Chicago's skyline. The greatest skyline in the world.
The greatest skyline in the world.
Shhh... Don't say that too loudly around here. :-)
By the way, thanks for the deep-dish pizza. The greatest pizza in the world! Next one's on me.
-- David
Chicago, IL
10-4
"Paulina on the Brown Line is probably the highest stop on the CTA system, because it's near where the L crosses over the C&NW viaduct."
California on the Cermak (Douglas) branch of the Blue Line is also pretty high, because it's just east of where the L passes over the BNSF viaduct.
Boston's els were designed to have as few grade changes as possible. For example, between Dudley and Egleston, the el rose steadily in altitude, but the street dipped near Washington Park and leveled out just short of Egleston, leaving two spots where the el was unusually high. Trains don't like steep or undulating grades, thus the designers took care to keep the el at a consistent grade no matter what the local ground did. Mezzanines were usually squeezed into the height of the girder forming the top of the bents. The track was supported on a floor between the bottoms of plate girders over the mezzanine, rather than directly on top of the girders as was the usual rule. This gave an unimpeded space to fit the mezzanine in without a negative effect on the street clearance. Green Street, an add on, was an exception, here the mezzanine was very low. Another high spot was in Charlestown, where the el crossed over a RR grade crossing. Here the el exited Sullivan Sq. on an upgrade, crossed over the RR, and then descended toward Thompson Sq. while Main St. ascended slightly. This was the highest point above the street on the system.
David:
I'd like to change my handle, but I can't. Can you delete my old handle, Tony Mirabella, so I may change it? Thanks.
Just email me with whatever you want your new handle to be.
I had to move two of them out of the barn today after the A/C. work was done. Boy they were coooold.
Robert
Were they Phase I or Phase II? The A/C on the R32's (especially on the cars out of Pitkin-Yard it seems) I have noticed to be especially cold. The Phase II cars out of Jamaica seem to have a few rolling ovens sprinkled in with the cold and not-so-cold. CI's R32s are somewhere in the middle; not overly hot or cold, sort of in the middle.
Worst of the lot? In Eastern Division, the high-numbered R42 (4840-4949 WITH THE EXCEPTION OF #4918 WHICH GOT A NEW UNIT AFTER ITS ACCIDENT DAMAGED NOSE AND BONNET WAS REPAIRED, and it is Ice Cold), are often miserable. They blow tepid air at best, hot air at worst.
Slants have excellent A/C pretty much across the board; if someone would please fix their condensate downspouts so they don't drip.
wayne
They were Phase Neither. As Robert indicated, they were from the ten cars overhauled by General Electric, which are getting new air conditioning systems.
David
I wonder what the temperature is inside the GE GOH R-32s with the new A/C units. Is it cold enough that you could freexe something inside those cars?
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Oh, come on. We've been through this before. The two HVAC units are set to come on at 71 and 72 degrees, respectively (that way they don't blow the car's electrical system by coming on at the same time). That's hardly "freezing."
David
The two HVAC units are set to come on at 71 and 72 degrees
71 or 72 Kelvins or Rankines is COOOOLD.
True enough. All right...I was referring to Fahrenheit, the unit of measure of temperature in most common use in the United States, where I, most of the posters to this board, and the cars in question are all located.
Is anything else wrong with my previous statement?
David
I would agree with you that 71 to 72 degrees fahrenheit isn't freezing but, when it is a hot summers' day out and when you step into an unusually cold car you get shilled off very fast until your body adjusts to the temperature.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I would agree with you that 71 to 72 degrees fahrenheit isn't freezing but, when it is a hot summers' day out and when you step into an unusually cold car you get chilled off very fast until your body adjusts to the temperature.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
DUH! I completely missed that one! I had no idea that they were even thinking of fixing the A/C on the R32GE. I had heard (right here on the board) that the cost was prohibitive and that due to the way the piping was laid out they couldn't get at the compressor cradles to replace them without a major production. Do tell how they managed to accomplish this.
AFAIK there are only 8 of these in service, one set (3936-3937) has been picked over for parts, so I was told.
wayne
I beleive Robert said this was a test since they are keeping the R32's when scapping the 40 + series. A test of a new A/C system to put into the cars they are keeping.
If Robert said it was a test, he was wrong. There's money in this year's operating budget to outfit all 10 cars with new AC units.
David
The bdget is there yes, but the type of unit is something now all together. These for what I heard are powered by A/C not D/C. That meen they have no bushes in them. These might be the type to be used in the R32 and the other classes that are going to be keeped when the R160's when they are built will get. Also I think the A/C R38's will get these when they are finshed with there upgrade of the whole Drive train system and controllers system.
Robert
Ummmm...that's "brushes," not "bushes." And under SMS, various car classes are being/have been upgraded with this type of unit, at least as far as the blowers go.
David
Ok you Metro New Yorkers. My wife s cousin Managers a Hotel in Manhatten and she offered my wife and I good Jobs. It is Midtown. We are seriously thinking about it. Do you guys have any ideas on where we can look for a apt under $800.00(If possible) and a train, bus or easy commutte. I looked in the Times Classified and Lefrak City in Rego Park is reasonable. I know the neighborhood since my aunt and grandmother lived in Rego Park until the mid 70s. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I may go back to NYC to my roots after 43 years yet>
$800. Most 1 bedrooms cost about $1,000+ these days. But you might be in luck around Rego Park/Middle Village. There are some decent homeowners who are looking for a good clientele, and may rent for slightly under $1,000. Check out the Times Newsweekly (formerly the Ridgewood Times). This newspaper is pretty good.
Or, you can do what I do. Go into a good neighborhood, and pick up the church bulletin, and you'll find someone looking to rent to decent people, for a decent price.
Thanks, Lefrak in Rego Pk starts at 685 for 1 bedroom
That is low! $685. Have they made you an offer, or is this some kind of fake ad? I'd be surprised if they rented for less than $800.
We pay $650/mo for 2 bedroom in Rego Park, largest apartment in my building. The studio across the hall is currently at 900/mo, the apartment above me (same size as mine) is at $1,500.
$685 is possible if the previous owner has lived there for a very long time.
Add in NY TIMES, I will check this weekend
You can't go by those ads. They are usually just a lie to get you to call. Trust me.
hpd apartments in harlem. there is also available hpd apartments studio to 3 bedroom available in the bronx. don't know if yo desire the neighborhood. www.nyc.gov. they go by a waiting list. also try manhattan plz. 43rd street between 9th and 10th ave. they go by income. try crown heights park slope and ft. green. you might hit luck there also.
How do you know the job will work? I'd rather not work with family becasue things can happen. Sure he manages a hotel, but what if something happens at a family reunion and he fires you? You'll have moved for nothing. Seriously think about it. Working with family has it's ups and downs. Just that I've seem WAY more downs than ups. Just a warning.
It is a she, and we both have worked for our families before. Beside we can get another job in NYC. There are many hotels and Travel Agencies, that would love our experience. Beside it is my wife s cousin, and we are the only family within 7000 miles, and they grew up together and are best friends as kids
It sounds to me like you really want to move back. If so, there are lots of places you could live including those outside of the city such as Long Island and New Jersey that are near railroad lines.
How about not looking into these neighborhoods and looking at Brooklyn, You can find decent $800 apartments that are LIVABLE unlike queens and forget Manhattan. I am pretty prefecient in Real Estate, post more of what you're looking for here, or e-mail me.
<< I am pretty prefecient in Real Estate >>
Spelling, on the other hand....
OUCH! he got you there! =)
eats two lait too tipe korectlie.
How about not looking into these neighborhoods and looking at Brooklyn, You can find decent $800 apartments that are LIVABLE unlike queens and forget Manhattan. I am pretty prefecient in Real Estate, post more of what you're looking for here, or e-mail me.
Let me give you a good piece of advice, From other Real Estate discussions on this board, it is VERY safe to NOT listen to subtalkers on this subject, with all due respect ofcourse.
forget astoria/L.I.C.
rent has gone from around 900 for a one bedroom to 1200-1500 for a studio/small one bedroom.
nice hood, but finding something decent for 800 won't happen, not without some damn good leads.
Isn't that sick? Those prices you listed for Astoria/LIC are even higher than I realized. But then again, it's been almost 2 years since I looked for an apartment in that area.
And for what? To be "close to the city"? So what? It's served by one of the worst subway lines in the city (N).
for what?
A)it's safe.
B)it's diverse, which i'm rather impartal to in most cases but hey, i can get all kinds of food around here.
C)half hour commute?
D)half hour commute, even on the *gasp* N ?
E)Half hour commute on the N that outside of the occasional weekend GOs is a reliable, relaxing ride (which i can't say the same about some of the cattle cars running on other lines) - where you can *gasp* get a seat on the train in rush hour!?!
F)chocolate. my god you can get good chocolate around here, and addicts like me need to be close to the supply! hehe!!!
G)there's enough to do if you don't want to go to manhattan... museums, parks, etc...
H)you can find a place close enough to both the N and G/R, so if one's down, get the other. big cheese.
I)it's all tunnels to manhattan - no collapsing willy B that has to be closed for a summer, or manny-b flip flops every few years.
J)I don't pay close to the peak that's being charged now, and I have a large one bedroom, with a home office, washer dryer, backyard, and the coolest landlord on the planet.
K)I could go on, but i'm obviously biased.
I am only mildly surprised that it took this long for the rents to get where they are.
I wouldn't live in another part of this town. I was here before the trendys came, and I'll be here long after...
You talking about Astoria?, I heard rents are sky high
You heard correctly. And you can get a nicer apartment for the same price in Forest Hills now, all because Astoria is close to the city.
Astoria is a great neighborhood! And the (N) is a line which doesn't get bad delays (it doesn't get enough serivice, though.) And if you're also close to the (G)(R), then you're in good shape, subway wise.
My wife works there, and if we didn't have 2 cars and close ties to Long Island, we might live there too.
:-) Andrew
My main choices and hopes are as follows 1-Kings Highway Area on Brighton Line and in the Midwood to Sheapshead Bay Area. 2 Queens Blvd Corridor from Elmhurst to Kew Gardens. 3-Astoria 4-Along the B in Bensonhurts. 5-Joisey where I can get a bus or train into the city. I will be working in Midtown
And in fact, there's another reason we don't live in Astoria. WE CAN'T AFFORD IT!
Oakland Gardens is nice for us, though.
:-) Andrew
<<>>
It was a great neighborhood. But it's changing fast. It's the next Corona/Jackson Heights corridor.
I just came from Astoria to see my doctor. He is located just off Steinway and Astoria Blvd., by the Carvel. Do you know what just opened up there? "Asi es Mexico" bodega, right in the heart of Astoria.
<<>>
Hmmmm. I can see you ride the N train alot. Come back in October when everyone is back to work, and the animals are back in school.
"where we can look for a apt under $800.00(If possible) "
Hmmm..... Pennsylvania should be as close as you can get for that price.
Elias
Sure. You can ride a commuter bus for two and a half hours from the Poconos, and do it again after work in reverse...
Or you can spend only 45 minutes by car, leaving the remaining two hours to find parking. :-)
Sorry Ron, the Martz bus out of Stroudsburg/Del Water Gap is only 90 minutes, and 70 non peak.
On this coming Sunday, all branches of the LIRR start operating on a net schedule. As in the past, most trains are unchanged while some have. Here's one I suppose I can understand buteither it's a misprint or the LIRR needs a tune-up.
On the old schedule, train 2058 (a local) takes 1:07 from Penn Station to Brentwood. It stops at Hicksville where the following train (2060) doesn't. Yet on the schedule, 2060 (an express) take 1:09 for the same trip.
Now fast forward to Monday. On the new schedule #2058 is unchanged. However, the stop at Jamaica for train 2060 has been eliminated. Hence it now makes two less stops than #2058 - 2 major stops. But now, according to the new schedule train #2060 now takes 1:09 for the same trip (without Jamaica).
I suppose I'm missing something but then again - it's the LIRR..
Sounds like delay time is being built into the schedule.
Most of the Oyster Bay Branch trains on weekends transfer at Mineola (pain in the @$$ for the 12:40 train out of roslyn, waiting at mineola is a pain), all of them transfer at Jamaica with the new one.
Actually, it makes 3 fewer stops. No Woodside either. The two minutes are lost at different times. One is lost from Penn to Bethpage, the other is lost between Farmingdale and Wyandanch.
The minute lost between Farmingdale and Wyandanch is probably built in because of a train coming westbound from Ronkonkoma. 2060 hits Farmingdale at 5:16. There's a westbound scheduled in Farmingdale at 5:13. Either the extra minute is built in because the westbound is frequently late (if I remember correctly the Ronk branch becomes single track east of Farmingdale), or it's because of more passengers exiting at Farmingdale on this train. I'd guess it's the westbound, since just about every other train does Farm to Wyan in 6 minutes, where 2060 takes 7.
You're probably losing the other time just before Hicksville, where you're catching up to the 4:19 Penn to Port Jeff train (which stops at Jamaica, Mineola and Hix).
CG
SEPTA's Museum Shop has this book, a reprint of Dr. Cox's 1967 history of the Market-Frankford line, for sale. It's also on the website. This is a great book even though the history freezes the line in '67 with no mention of what's happened since then. A very good reference book for anyone interested in rapid transit in Phila.
Sounds like I have to get myself a copy ... maybe at the Fall Trolley show Sept 7/8.
Thanks for posting.
--Mark
From today's Chicago Tribune:
CTA wants express link from Loop to airports
Sounds a lot like London's Heathrow Express. It would be the first facility of its kind in the US.
If it were up to me:
I'd build two additional tracks in the median of the Eisenhower Expressway (there's already provisions for a four-track main line, including two extra portals to the subway). The trains would go underground via the portals, and then turn north under Clinton Street and terminate at Union Station. The new terminal would be accessed directly from the Great Hall, with airline check-in either in the Great Hall itself or below ground on a large mezzanine level. There's already a large archway inside the Great Hall, directly opposite the ramp down to the platforms, that looks like it should be leading somewhere. It would make a perfect entry to the new CTA terminal under Clinton Street.
Going outbound, the trains would stop at a transfer station around Cicero, allowing transfers to the regular Congress trains. The airport route would then split, with one branch going south to Midway and other going north to O'Hare via Jefferson Park (another transfer station there). There's already an existing railroad viaduct that parallels Cicero Avenue. From Jefferson Park onward, the trains would run in a widened Kennedy Expressway ROW. The expressway isn't quite as confined along here as it is closer to downtown, and probably has a little room to spare. As I understand it, the most of the overpasses are already due for reconstruction anyway.
The trains could be built to regular CTA standards, but I'd suggest upgraded seating and aesthetics. Like the Trib mentions in the article, they would have dedicated baggage cars that meet FAA regulations for security.
-- David
Chicago, IL
And your version has the advantage of far better "intermodalism" as well as offering new trackage which means new routes for other uses. It is over forty years since CTA talked about a West Side Crosstown line connecting to all of the existing L's.
It would also allow trains to run express between the two airports without going through downtown, should there be enough demand. They could also run a "local" train (on seperate tracks) along the Cicero Avenue with stops every half-mile or so, completing the Crosstown proposal you mention. The locals could even extend north to the Skokie Swift terminal at Dempster, and south to Ford City and then east to the Red and Green lines.
It would also re-make Union Station's Great Hall into the central gathering place it was meant to be, instead of the underused backwater space it has become since the station was reconfigured.
Besides, I'm very skeptical that the CTA could deliver true "express" service merely by using sidings at strategic points. All it would take is one delay on one train to throw a monkey wrench into the system. With my proposal, the trains could pick up speeds in at least the 75 MPH range on the long straight stretches along the expressway and Cicero alignments, assuming the tracks and signalling were built to handle such speeds. I question how fast the trains could really go while they're weaving in and out of various sidings and waiting for signals to clear.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I heartily agree with your proposal to build the long thought-of Crosstown Route and utilize the Eisenhower median. That would bring much new service to Chicago.
And if the city wants to speed up airport service immediately, the A-B skip stop express could be put in with little expense on both the Blue and Orange lines, although ride times on the intermediate stops would be increased, even with shorter headways. Much of the present right of way is capable of 70mph, the cars are capable of 70mph. What has to be avoided is the temptation to put "all stop" stations everywhere.
The unknown factor in the skip stop is could the rush hour headways handle the passenger load.
David Harrison
David, I have a question. I went through to the back part of the Union Station Great Hall at one point (the part directly facing you as you walk in from the platform half, currently boarded up) -- I saw in there walls with blistered brickwork, and generally blackened landscape that suggests that there had been a fire at one stage in there. Can anyone fill me in on the details?
Lexcie
Somerville, MA
I didn't know anything about a fire back there. Maybe one of the other Chicago SubTalkers can provide more info. Probably nothing that can't be repaired, since the building itself is obviously still sound.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I didn't know anything about a fire back there. Maybe one of the other Chicago SubTalkers can provide more info. It's probably nothing that can't be repaired, since the building itself is obviously still sound.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm trying to think of all the news stories I have seen about Union Station in the past few years. I can't remember an exact story about a fire but it does ring a bell. Sometime in the past year there was a shootout between cops and suspected drug dealers, in the middle of the day. It occured right at the doors to the platforms. I know a cop was killed (maybe someone else, I don't remember) in the gunfire and hundreds of people had to duck for cover. Was it bullet holes you saw?
I also remember something about a guy selling Streetwise at Union Station and something happened and somebody died. That story is a bit more hazy.
A Chicago friend of mine said that he remembers a fire in the early 1990s, but he was living in New Hampshire at the time so he doesn't recall the details. Apparently, there was no structural damage, so it was probably a superficial fire, but it did blacken the inside of the building and caused a lot of cosmetic damage. This was in a section that was not generally accessible to the public.
Why don't they simply make the North Central Metra Service more frequent? I travelled on the NCS once, and I was very positively impressed. Clean trains, very little number of stops, pleasent scenery (well better than the el anyway), and convenient transfer at the airport end -- no walking or dragging luggage involved, just a bus. Besides, I often come off Amtrak from Ohio, and any Metra service will beat the drag across town with suitcases and then down those desolate staircases underneath the Eisenhower expressway.
Lexcie
There are plans to alter and potentially expand Metra service to O'Hare. At the moment, service is limited because the line is owned by Wisconsin Central, which runs frequent freight service on the line. The addition of another track is being considered, as are additional stations in the O'Hare region.
Remember the post about an R 62A being seen at Corona Yard? Well sheeeeeeeees bacccccckkkkkk. The infamous R 62A car # 2155 has returned to Corona yard.........Again. Damn!!!!!!!!!. A picture will be put up soon.
I got a pic of it in Corona Barn today......I'll post a link to the pic tonight.
-Mark
I remember reading the post, but I don't know/remember what's so bad aobut having the R62A there
The Flushing Line is getting 15-year-old hand-me-downs from the #6 line, cars which are just this side of middle age. You'd think they'd put the option-order R142 or R142A out there but it's not in their plans to do so. Oddly enough, they plan to use these cars on the #3 and #4 lines (as well as the #2, #5 and #6), not the #7.
wayne
I think if the TA had put R62A's or R62's on the 7 line several years ago, perhaps 1993 or so, after all the major rehabilitation work on the Flushing line was completed, it wouldn't have been so bad. They could have transferred all of the 4 line's R62s, and some of the 3 line's R62A's to Flushing to make the 7 an all-R62/62A fleet. The 7's R36s would then be transferred to the 3 and 4. And the 40 single R33s could then have been retired from service.
But they waited until now to do it, even though the topic of the 7 getting R62A's has come up on Subtalk for at least the past TWO YEARS. Now the R62A's are near middle-age. Had they gone to the 7 in 93, at least they would have still been fairly new (six to nine years old). Corona is an old barn and equipped to handle R142/142A's. But it will have to be able to handle new cars soon, because the R62As will need to be replaced at some point in the future, and the TA should plan for that. In fact, maybe they should have renovated the Corona barn to handle R142s while they were rehabilitating the rest of the line.
The R-62's on the 4/3 line are the best fleet in the system, why would they send the best fleet in the system to get in return, warn down, broken down, out of shape redbirds? It would be a very bad trade indeed. If that was accomplished then most of the Mainline IRT fleet will be composed of redbirds. During the summer that would never be good. I dont see the 7 line ever getting the R-142. In the year 2020-2025 when the R-62/62A reach their life expentancy then the 1,3,4,7 lines will have all spankin new subway cars that are better then the R-142. So be very patient, (I am) and the new cars will make everyone happy. There will be an upgrading, if it's not now, then in either the 2005-2009 / 2010-2014 capital plans the yard rehab for corona will be done.
By 2025 we should be up to at least R-180 maybe R-200?
Wow in 80 years it went from R-1 to 200.
okay the the 3and 4 r142s and there going to get new cars for the 1 and the 7 that have the technolgy of the r143 maybe this is whats going to happen but the r62 class will get rebult probaly
The R-62 isn't getting rebuilt.
The only reason General Overhauls (GOH) were done in the 1980s was to erase the damage from deferred maintenance and have a fresh car clock (figurative) for the Scheduled Maintenance System (SMS), which is to repair and replace car equipment on a schedule and keep the cars in good shape and reliability.
What happened to the numbers from R70-130? Did they just skip all of them and give 2 or 3 to work cars?
The (7) Line is not recieving cars from the Pelham Yard, All R-62As for the (7) will be from Cortlandt and Livonia (Once the R142 Option Order Comes). The Pelham R-62As will return to thier original home on the Cortland (1) Line.
I think a lot of posters here are making "much ado about nothing." Since the TA cannot replace every IRT car with a new 142, somebody is going to get "hand-me-downs." A 15-year old R-62 or R-62A is in better shape and easier to maintain than an R-20something or R-33. Further, the R-62's manufacturers, parts, support and service are all still here, which is not true about any Redbird. (I mean no disrespect to the TA's own maintenance crews, which have done a superb job keeping them rolling all these years. Bravo!)
If Corona indeed becomes an-all R-62 type shop, that will still represent a significant improvement in rolling stock on the line. The introduction of R142's to the Bronx, along with the White Plains Road reconstruction/ADA project, was a signal to the borough the the TA is supportive of its transit needs.
Come on guys (and gals)! Find something else to kvetch about...
R62As return to Corona oh noooo????
more like
OH YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i always wanted to see it. besides pics of it
I think it's good that the 7 is getting R62A's. I just think they should have been sent there sooner, back when all R62A's were single units.
Anything's better than the redbirds. In the teeth of that heatwave 2 weeks ago I boarded, and quickly exited, a redbird with THREE consecutive non-AC cars. Absolutely ridiculous. Bring on the R62's.
www.forgotten-ny.com
is it still there? i will go pass by to see it
There are two shots of 2155 (And other cars)
http://community.webtv.net/MarkNYC618/Corona
-Mark W.
Is 2155 part of a linked set or is it a single? The second picture seems to show another silver car behind 2155.
The car behind it is one of the garbage train R-127's
Hooray! I wonder when we'll start seeing some R62A's in customer serive on the (7) already!
:-) Andrew
I am happy to see that the Flushing line is getting "2nd hand" cars.
Why? Because for years the Mainline (particularly the Pelham line) was the recipient of (and stuck with) the Flushing castoffs (R12/14, R15) when the R33/36WF cars were brought in for the World's Fair. So what goes around, comes around.
So there!!
We need a special order of cars...
its special line after all.
well exculsives to the 7.its true
Is it really? Oh, you mean that "International Express" thing?
(If you mean the Mets, don't even try that. We Yankee fans will drown you out).
I saw two Number 3 train mase up like this. I just want to know were the C/R stay. Dose he say in the full cab or dose he move between them.
Robert
If it's a full cab, why would he need to move between them?
Going From 148 to NL the C/R is in the 5th car
Going from NL to 148 the C/R is in the 6th car
I saw two Number 3 Train mase up like this.
Hello? ALL #3 trains have this make-up! I thought you knew! (IT would soon disappear once the R142 option order comes in.)
Cleanairbus
carlwal@hotmail.com
hybridbus@aol.com
Not all. Some still have all singls cars. I was watching them yesterday at 96st when I saw the other setup.
Robert
All 3 trains are nine cars; however, they come in different flavors -either nine single cars, a five-car-linked-unit and a four-car-linked-unit or, as Robert stated, one five-car-linked-unit and four single cars. In general, the latter is frowned upon, because on the uptown trip, it forces the CR and TO to be in the same section of the train.
Answer to original question: If the consist has a transverse cab and a normal cab (5 car unit and 4 singles) at the CR's operating position, the CR is ALWAYS to be found in the transverse cab; if it has two transverse cabs, the CR is always in the one farthest away from the TO.
I was not aware there was such a thing as a 4-car "linked" set on the 3 line.
The practice is: 5-car unit on the North (148) End; one 1900-series full-width cab car from S fleet to mate full-width cabs and three added singles.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Me neither. I've never seen. I only know of R62As to be linked in 5 car sets with 2 compressors removed from 2 cars out of the 5. That and singles.
No. The 3 have either 9 single cars or a 5 car linked unit followed by a single tranverse cab unit(1915-1965, excluding 1905 and 1910), then three singles. The last car of the train may be a tranverse cab car as well.
Get ready. I heard directly from a TSS assigned to the #3 line that starting no later than Labor Day, 10 cars on the #3 line. This has to do with what was discussed here recently: some overnite #3 consists laying up at E.180th Yard.
So what will become of Lenox Yard?
They can still split a 10 cars train into 2 five cars train and put half on one and the other half on another. Just my thought. Noing the TA they would think this would cost to much, with two T/O to cut the train and bring them into the yard, so they might just not use 180 street yard.
robert
Some tracks at Lenox Yard can hold 10 car trains, there is a very good indication of this. If not there, Livonia Yad can definitlely hold 10 car trains.
But Livonia also stores 2, 4, and 5 Trains overnight.
do they store any r142s thats why sometimes the #2 goes to new lots
Yes they do. One morning they sent 3 R142's to New Lots.
On 8/24 regarding earlier notations on the R-62a set with one 5-car and 4 single car set up, I found one roaming on the #3 line at Atlantic Ave. station. At first I thought it was the normal two five car set up for 10 cars, but at the back end of that train was the four other single unit cars.
Does anyone know which fleet types at NYCT have on-board computers or data feeds that log events, for example speed at certain time intervals, door operation, emergency brake application, etc.?
Also, is anyone aware of any fleet anywhere with on-board computers that record PA announcements to audio files? It doesn't seem like that capability should be a big deal. This would be very useful in checking on how well passengers are informed of trains skipping stops or off-loading.
-Adam
You must be the same guy who was asking about data loggers and signals
The only NYCT equipment to have these loggers are the "new tech"
cars, i.e. the R142/142A/143 orders.
Rather than monitoring what the conductors say on the PA, these
cars say it for them.
Jeff--
Thanks for the reply. Did you mean that the R142/142A/143 cars record speed, door control usage, emergency brake application, etc? Do you have any more detailed info? I want to make sure I have the information correct.
I've been on the R142s and R142As and have seen the station announcement system. As for the PA system, as you know the conductors override the automatic station announcements if the train is to be run express or off-loaded--and this is where I think the recording of the manual PA usage would be useful.
I can't find the written citation right now. My recollection
is that the R142s are equipped with an event logger that
records speed, motor and brake commands, door events, certain
system faults and emergency brake and passenger assistance
intercom activations, and that those data for the past N minutes,
N being about 5, are frozen and saved when the emergency brakes
apply or can be downloaded by a supervisor with a laptop computer.
I do not recall the time window before the circular buffer wraps
around under normal conditions.
If David is watching this post and if he has an R142 contract
book handy, he could probably give the definitive answer.
If you mean me (?) I do not have a R142 contract book. Or any other such books...
No, I meant the person whose handle is just plain "David" :)
"Just Plain" here...
No, I don't have the spec book, and I don't have firsthand knowledge to answer this question. It's sufficiently technical that it should be submitted directly to NYCT's Division of Car Equipment, 130 Livingston Street - 2nd Floor, Brooklyn NY 11201. I hope that the poster who made the original query will do this and share the answer with us when he receives it.
David
Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for. It's great to find such knowledgeable people lurking on a webboard like this!
Just curious--does anyone know whether the closing of each section of doors would be recorded separately, and whether the re-opening of doors would be recorded?
Do you know if conductors are trained to close doors in a set order (front, then rear or vice versa) at each station (at NYCT), or is it left to the conductor's discretion?
Also, I seem to remember that the R142As had "local recycling" of individual doors that are held open (while the rest of the doors close and remain closed). Do they still have that?? I wonder if a special record in the data logs is made of the uses of local recycling.
Thanks again,
Adam
There aren't too many people who would know those specific things.
Maybe someone in car engineering who worked on that system, or the
vendor. But I see what you are driving at, and as far as I know,
the purpose of the system is to figure out who gets to piss into
which cup when an accident happens, not to proactively monitor
the minutiae of system performance!
I have always observed that the rear section is closed first.
This may be a hangover from the days when buzzer or bell signals
were passed among multiple conductors or gatemen. I do not know
if this is an RTO rule or SOP.
I have something that was revised in 1996 for conductors that has a section 6 Car Equipment and Operations that has "Proper Door Operating Procedure - Enroute". It isn't the rule book but does use wording from some of the rules. This is old and might have been updated since 1996. It aslo has a dictionary of terms, diagrams of different car classes.
Step 9: annouce "Stand Clear of the Closing Doors, Please"
Step 10: Observe that doorways are clear of customers and their possessions, ensuring that they will not be struck by the doors.
Step 11: Depress the closing button for the rear section of the train first; watch the guard ligths go out and observe the MDC Panel Indication Light for the rear section illuminate. If the rear section indication is illuminated, then depress the closing button for the front section; watch the guard lights go out and observe teh MDC Panel Indication Light for the front section illuminate.
Step 12: While simultaneouly observing the front section of the train, turn the key in the MDC keyswitch from "ON" to the "RUN" position and remove the key (This will return Train Operator's indication).
Step 13: Ensuring that the side of the train is clear as it leaves the station, the Conductor will continue to look at the FRONT section and observe that the customers are clear of the side of the train.
The conductor will immediatley turn to the REAR section and observe that the customers are clear of the side of the Train.
Conductor will observe BOTH sections AT LEAST TWICE unitl the train has reached the end of the station platform or has moved three (3) car lenghts, whichever distance is shorter.
The reason that the rear section is closed first is one of safety. Human nature being what it is, and due to fatigue, occasionally a very small number of train operators will hear the door relay or PIR pull in and attempt to take power on the sound (since that normally means that he has indication). If the C/R closes the front section first, and the T/O mistakes the sound of the obstruction relay or the SLR for the door relay, he may attempt to take power. Normally the train will not take power if both sections are not closed & locked but if the 'side door bypass' is out adjustment or there is failure of the door relay in the closed position, the train will take power. Closing the rear section first insures that at least if there is a mechanical failure and the T/O takes off on the sound of the front section closing, at least, the doors will be closed & locked.
Wow, logic!!
Thanks Dude...
Also, if he hears the front close and the rear is still open, the train could still move even if he can't take power if he simply releases the brake on a grade.
Finally they're in service. The first 4 CAF cars began service this morning on the Green Line. Well - I'll definitely have to take a ride on them today.
Wayne
Let us all know if they are running OK and be sure to tell us if there are any faults. Good luck to the CAF cars! It's been a long time.
Chuck Greene
Does anyone know the status of how this is coming along? At one point I had heard that it would be completed this year, but I haven't heard much lately.
CG
Delayed until Spring or Summer 2002 due to (possibly justified) NIMBY lawsuits. (they bulldozed a black neighborhood to build the connection) And the usual excuse "shortage of skilled track and signal workers"
For more info see:
http://www.nj.com/forums/transit/
Gee, it didn't look like a whole neighborhood to me. More like a dozen houses, if that many. For the latest on the Monclaire Connection click here.
Ah ha! Do I hear the sounds of self-annointed pretending to have been elected to represent New Jersey and decrying the evil of railroads? Or is it merely another campus of the NIMBY training academy?
Where have we heard that before?
It's actually worse than you think. I took a walk around there a few months ago. The distance from the soon-to-be-former end of the Montclaire Branch to the nearest stretch of the Boonton Line is a minor fraction of the distance from JFK to Jamaica Station. There is no disused ROW that could have been reactivated. There is no wide street that could have been used for a cut-and-cover or elevated connection. In short, if you want to connect the two lines without building a lot more railroad than you have to, you have the choice of which small number of houses you're going to demolish in order to penetrate the two- or three-block deep barrier south of the Boonton Line to reach the open land near the Montclaire Branch.
OK. So we're talking about eminent domain seizure.
It is perfectly legitimate for the homeowners involved to complain. But these things happen, and they are legitimately entitled to fair market value for their homes, plus help in relocating. It would be in NJ Transit's best interest to be generous to them, not stingy (of course this is New Jersey we're talking about...).
Get on with it...
I wonder when the last time even a dozen house were bulldozed for any purpose in a white neighborhood???????????????????? If you were one of the people in who owned those homes, you would think it was a big deal.
"I wonder when the last time even a dozen house were bulldozed for any purpose in a white neighborhood?"
Name the last ten major airports built in this country, starting with the new Denver International and working backwards.
I wonder when the last time even a dozen house were bulldozed for any purpose in a white neighborhood?
Name the last ten major airports built in this country, starting with the new Denver International and working backwards.
I didn't think there were any houses or other buildings remotely close to the Denver airport site.
But getting back to Piggo12's comment, I am sure that state and local governments use their eminent domain powers without regard to the race of the people whose properties are being taken. And I am also sure that the property owners in almost all cases are very well compensated for their properties, usually at some premium to prevailing market value.
In some cases, eminent domain is abused; for example, a small property/retail store owner being forced to sell, then watch the government hand over the property to a commercial developer who puts up a bigger store.
This kind of abuse has begun to attract the judiciary's attention, however, and some eminent domain seizures of this type have been cancelled by court order.
In some cases, eminent domain is abused; for example, a small property/retail store owner being forced to sell, then watch the government hand over the property to a commercial developer who puts up a bigger store.
This kind of abuse has begun to attract the judiciary's attention, however, and some eminent domain seizures of this type have been cancelled by court order.
Eminent domain is not supposed to be used for commercial commercial (as opposed to public) developments. As you point out, however, it sometimes is abused, frequently by a local government declaring some sort of development plan and taking property ostensibly for purposes of that plan; needless to say, the "plan" is really just a backdoor deal for a particular developer. Courts indeed are scrutinizing these deals more closely. And in any event, the property owners generally are well-compensated.
"Needless to say, the 'plan' is really just a backdoor deal for a particular developer."
It's *not* "needless to say"! While there have clearly been abuses, there have also been legitimate redevelopment plans for blighted areas that have involved using eminent domain.
***I wonder when the last time even a dozen house were bulldozed for any purpose in a white
neighborhood???????????????????? If you were one of the people in who owned those homes, you would think it was a big
deal.***
I hardly think it's fair to suggest that these properties were targeted for demolition on account of their owners' race. The Montclair Connection was first proposed in the 1920s (!!!) as a way to rationalize rail service in the area. The project has been an NJT priority since the agency's inception. In other words, the Connection wasn't the result of some bureacrat's picking out a poor/minority area for a project no one else wanted; the proposal was around *long* before the current residents.
The state also made generous (above market) payouts to homeowners and agreed to service frequency restrictions (and, I think, sound barriers) to mitigate the impact on the neighborhood. If you do a quick search of railfan boards on the topic, (see, for example this one ) you'll find that there's actually a lot of grumbling that NJT made too many concessions to implement the Connection.
I'm very sensitive to situations where state authorities act in a Robert Moses-like fashion towards poor or minority communities when planning projects. Here, I'm afraid, the charges just don't wash.
I would tend to agree - see my caveat in another post.
1959, 1962, 1968, 1930-39...
-Hank
What does the fact of it being a black neighborhood matter? It was in the way, had it been a white neighborhood the same fate would have befallen unto it(unless it was a very rich white neighborhood).
I presume the people affected were justly compensated.
Well, this is New Jersey we're talking about. But you are likely to be right, albeit conditionally so...
What does the fact of it being a black neighborhood matter? It was in the way, had it been a white neighborhood the same fate would have befallen unto it(unless it was a very rich white neighborhood).
I presume the people affected were justly compensated.
As a general rule, when government agencies condemn private property for public purposes, the property owners get somewhat more than fair market value. Governments know that property owners can delay projects quite substantially if they sue for higher compensation. Hence it's easier and often cheaper just to pay them very well right at the start.
While I was over at Grove Street looking at the PCCs, I decided to take a walk over to the Montclair Branch, since it was practically around the corner. Watsessing Station is down in a cut. It needs work. Among other things, they should either uproot the vegetation growing on the top of the platform canopies or buy a lawn mower. I can't help wondering if the present condition of the north end of the platforms is due to erosion or a jackhammer. They have, however, installed new signage claiming, IIRC, that trains from Watsessing go to Hackettstown and Gladstone rather than to Montclair. (Very strange. According to a map I have consulted, you can't get to Gladstone via the Boonton line. Is it even possible, given the existing track connections, to "turn left" at Denville and "turn right" at Chatham and go to New Providence?)
Any way, since I was already there at Watsessing and the timetable said that "Bloomfield" was only two minutes away, I walked over there. "Bloomfield" is on an embankment. While Watsessing is shrinking, Bloomfield's platforms have been extended using blacktop. The station bldg., such as it is, is on the northbound side, while the canopy on the southbound side is three or four times longer. The destination signs there are the same as at Watsessing. Even stranger, though, is the stub of abandoned track north of the station that seems to be heading south and behind the back wall of the southbound platform. BTW, the station bldg. needs work. (Can you spell D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R A-R-E-A? When were these stations built? When was the last nickel spent on maintaining them? Must have been in the days of the DL&W.
VISIT www.hobokenterminal.com and see the topic listed "DIESELS ON THE MONTCLAIR BRANCH".
Railfan Pete.
VISIT www.hobokenterminal.com and see the topic listed "DIESELS ON THE MONTCLAIR BRANCH".
Railfan Pete.
Diesels on the Montclair Branch
NJ TRANSIT officials continue to prepare for expanded service on the Montclair Branch in 2001, following the opening of the Montclair Connection. That means heavy construction will commence this year -- and NJT is preparing for that by de-energizing existing catenary on the route. NJT will operate diesel-hauled trains on the Montclair Branch beginning in March; the diesel trains will cover the service throughout the spring and summer. After the Montclair Connection is completed in 2001, there will be electric train service from all six of Montclair's train stations directly to New York Penn Station.
(From the New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers)
From Michael Steinberg's website.
Railfan Pete.
Pete,
What was the date on that information?
The Montclair Connection estimated date of completion has been moved to Spring 2002. Diesels are going to be on the Montclair Branch for a little while longer (i.e. no Midtown Direct).
Sorry for the misinterpretation. The Unofficial NJ TRANSIT website hasn't been updated since 01/30/01 at 7:52 PM EST.
The webmaster explained in his first topic of news that he hasn't been able to update his site recently, because of a project he's working on related to NJ TRANSIT.
But you should explore his site. Every NJT railfan will like it. HIstorical
Sorry for the misinterpretation. The Unofficial NJ TRANSIT website hasn't been updated since 01/30/01 at 7:52 PM EST.
The webmaster explained in his first topic of news that he hasn't been able to update his site recently, because of a project he's working on related to NJ TRANSIT.
But you should explore his site. Every NJT railfan will like it. HIstorical trains too.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Story here
Oh what a CROCK ... Skelos, it figures ... perhaps the Senator might want to give us a BUDGET ... pure grandstanding and diversionary tactics ... that's our state Senate hard at rest ... and STILL no "budget" while Bruno and the Paturkey fiddle ... perhaps the senators might want to appropriate some of the money that AMTRAK had to lay out to keep New York service running at all in the absence of any money out of Smallbany while they bickered over who gets a tax cut.
What a crock ... (walks away muttering and shaking his head)
hand wringing by stingy pols yum. But also notice the attempt here to wrench control of two tunnels away to MTA who will then magically make the saftey repairs next week with what money?
Someone better move in fast and stop the MTA. Amtrak can do without another section like NYC to New Haven. Not that it would make much difference if the LIRR tunnels don't have any strategic value. That's something someone who knows about the area has to decide.
Lexcie
Don't forget that no tracks south of Track 14 access the more northerly of the two East River tunnels. Thus, turning complete ownership of that tunnel over to LIRR or MTA is only an issue to the extent that Amtrak or NJT uses Tracks 14-21.
Heh. MTA's running on borrowed money too ... *AND* to make matters worse, in just a few more days all of that UNSPENT money from the last fiscal year goes byebye unspent and lost forever. And of course in September, the school districts have to send out the school tax bills without THEIR state money too. Meanwhile, Skelos, Bruno, Paturkey and Shelly *STILL* haven't done a real budget.
Only in Noo Yawk ... no wonder Jersey seems civilized ... grandstanding toadies ... and we'll re-elect all of these clowns too.
>>Only in Noo Yawk<<
no the Ca budget was about a month behind the constitutional mandate--neither the first nor last time .
Oh, we're WAY past a measly "month" ... here in NY we really do screwups in style and our politicos fear no one ... if only we could go after our politicos like we go after our squeegee men ... but I won't take it off topic any further. Suffice it to say that Amtrak ain't the reason the tunnels have gone to hell ...
Guess their energy problems got in the way this year.
Did you read the article closely, Dave? It said there is $125 million reserved for tunnel work in the state budget. Given the work which must be done, not requiring rebuilding the tunnels themselves, that is certainly enough.
The article quotes a cost figure of closer to a billion dollars over 10 years.
Yes, but the most urgent work (the "A" items) can be accomplished for the budgeted $125 million. A billion will pay for a lot more, of course, but the urgency goes down as you proceed along the list.
IMHO, it's time Amtrak either start getting with the program, or NY and NJ look into taking over the WHOLE DAMN THING, station, tunnels, and all. When Amtrak's busy flaunting 900+ million dollar station construction, and complaining about lack of money to imprtove safety, it's pretty damm obvious that Amtrak doesn't give a crap about tunnel safety.
I doubt they will until there's a major accident in the tunnels, and all the fingerpointing stops.
I think it's pathetic that the #1 and #3 commutter operations in the US are held hostage by an incompetent organization who's daily ridership isn't even a blip on the radar.
As for standpipes - the NYFD has been calling for them since the PRR days. These improvements aren't new requests.
Another thing to think of - lots of burnable stuff on those trains. A decent fire (started however), could turn into an amazingly hot inferno (fanned by piston effects from other trains) in minutes. Death toll? My guess is 1,000+ isn't out of the question.
Until then, Amtrak apparently wants to sit on their butt and cross their fingers.
Phil, it's pathetic that there should be commuter operations at all, in this day and age of market economy. Amtrak is closer to making $ than either of those two commuter operations. Amtrak has an operating ratio nearing 104% -- but I bet you all those commuter people have operating ratios greater than 150%.
As for the tunnel safety, if the commuter rail people think it's not already safe enough -- what about them finding some $$ to pay for it? Amtrak will happily act as subcontractor to the MTA, same way as that freight companies will happily act as subcontractor to the MTA, Metra, and Amtrak itself, to improve the right of way.
Lexcie
As far as I understand it, Amtrak has REPEATEDLY requested funding for the tunnel improvements and Trent Lott and company REPEATEDLY refused it. Rather than yelling at Amtrak (who DID try to get the money), you might want to direct that anger towards the pencil-necked dickless politicians who are sitting down there in DC in their leather upholstery thumbing their noses at NYC ... maybe?
Amtrak's worried about it too ... but money must be EARMARKED for specific projects - that's how politics work when the anointed get to make the decisions. Let's just hope that if something like that DOES happen, it'll be on the way to a certain party's national convention.
Beats me. I don't see Warrington up on TV telling us how badly Amtrak needs money to improve the tunnels. but the second someone floated that pathetic new penn station, he was up and bragging about it.
I don't see ANY call from Amtrak, from the top down, to remedy these problems. I don't think they even want to. They'd rather let a few LIRR trains crash and burn, which would get NY state to pony up the cash right away.
Amtrak barely uses the tunnels or the station, they have no incentive to improve it. They'd rather wait for something to happen, then the LIRR and NJT will given them a free tunnel upgrade.
Of course, if freight RRs don't want maintain their tracks for 80mph operation for the one or 2 Amtrak trains a day that run on them, Amtrak whines to the FRA and STB about it....
What can I say? I read the article earlier this year in the Times where the whole thing went down. Amtrak DID try to get the funding, jumped through hoops and Trentie and Dickey Armey blew it up ... Amtrak can wave its arms hard enough until it lifts off the ground. If the anointed would rather have a tax cut than the safety of the riders, then we all gets what we gets. The Penn Station thing can be done by Amtrak without congressional moolah, the tunnel couldn't. It's all back there in yesterday's news ready for the reading and links to it ARE in the subtalk archives ... somewhere ...
Unless you are completely naive (which is possible), you would understand that Warrington (or anyone else in that hot seat) will not be too critical of his patrons' political priorities. Change his speech substantially, and Trent Lott would arrange for him to resign due to "time to be with his family and explore new opportunities."
We have to hold our politicians more accountable. Do that. and things get a little better at Amtrak.
Why not hold Amtrak accountable? They've proven time and time again that they CAN'T handle decent sums of money without screwing up. Hell, a contractor managed to screw them for 300 million on the boston electrification. They've consistantly shown an inability to buy suitable or even functional equipment (E-60, P-30CH, SD45PH, Turboliners), have been doing a crappy job at running Penn station, and the BEST they can do is plans for what's now appearing to be a stillborn hack job on the post office next door? Come on, this is a "railroad" that's been fighting tooth and nail over speed limits on a Maine train that doesn't exist (yet), unveiled a grand plan to expand routes that resulted in a Wisconsin train that lost $400+ a passenger, can't even maintain the NEC, expected Metro-North to just roll over and bump speed limits up, and can't even run a decent high speed service.
The problems with Penn Station and the tunnels predate Amtrak. Amtrak's done zip to address them. Their only "improvement" to Penn Station has been a few new coats of paint and a plan for a 'new" one next door.
It's interesting to note that the "new" Penn Station costs what the projections for tunnel improvements will cost. Which one does Amtrak have "no comment" on?
Amtrak's existance is in jeopardy because they can't run themselfs.
I'm sorry, there just isn't a vast conspiracy to kill them off. They're their own worst enemy.
Why not hold Amtrak accountable? They've proven time and time again that they CAN'T handle decent sums of money without screwing up. Hell, a contractor managed to screw them for 300 million on the boston electrification. They've consistantly shown an inability to buy suitable or even functional equipment (E-60, P-30CH, SD45PH, Turboliners), have been doing a crappy job at running Penn station, and the BEST they can do is plans for what's now appearing to be a stillborn hack job on the post office next door? Come on, this is a "railroad" that's been fighting tooth and nail over speed limits on a Maine train that doesn't exist (yet), unveiled a grand plan to expand routes that resulted in a Wisconsin train that lost $400+ a passenger, can't even maintain the NEC, expected Metro-North to just roll over and bump speed limits up, and can't even run a decent high speed service.
Losing $400 per passenger? Now that's quite an accomplishment!
I don't have much of an opinion concerning Amtrak; I've never ridden it and have little or no desire to do so. What with discount airlines like Southwest and JetBlue, I have a somewhat difficult time trying to figure out Amtrak's real raison d'etre if indeed one exists. But I will say that as an LIRR commuter, I am quite frustrated at the not-infrequent delays leaving Penn Station caused by Amtrak equipment problems. And this tunnel-safety issue does have me concerned.
And a company led by a genius such as yourself could have done the electrification for a tenth of that, right?
Notice that that's what the headline said but not what the body of the article said. The article itself said that the tunnels are in good condition but that Amtrak should be upgrading emergency facilities in the tunnels.
Notice that that's what the headline said but not what the body of the article said. The article itself said that the tunnels are in good condition but that Amtrak should be upgrading emergency facilities in the tunnels.
I would say that the failure to upgrade emergency exits and facilities counts as "neglect" even if the tunnels are otherwise well-maintained.
Well my general impression of the tunnels is they aren't in great shape, there's alot of leaks and in winter those leaks cause ice on the railbed. The tunnels probably have inadequate fire and safety apparatas. But I would think Steinway tubes that the 7 uses are also in this situation, if not even worse, since the Steinway tubes are abit older than those LIRR/Amtrak East River tunnels.
I would rather see the MTA get ownership of two tunnels for the LIRR. I think alot of LIRR's problems have to do with those tunnels causing delays and problems, and LIRR, like Metro North should own it's Manhattan station.
It's kinda weird that one of the largest commuter railroads in the country doesn't even have it's own station, it has to "rent" it from Amtrak.
Or the LIRR could take its musical schlong, take that $125 million and finish their OWN damned tunnel into their own damned MTA terminal on 42nd as well ... if we're going to play free enterprise, the LIRR COULD take their business elsewhere. Just a thought. :)
$125 million is enough to get the most urgent tunnel upgrade work done, butr not enough to finish an unfinished tunnel.
The current situation supports the rationale for completing the 63rd St-41st Av-Sunnyside LIRR tunnel (the East Side Access project) in addition to pushing Amtrak to repair the tubes it uses.
If the situation is so desperately imperiled as some would suggest, then money is no object. It's a mere invite to that central axiom of NYC living, defecate or remove the lid. (or shit or get off the pot) ... Amtrak could turn around and say, "you know? This *IS* a serious problem. Your passengers should not have to risk this - all LIRR trains shall terminate at Hunters Point station, Woodside or Jamaica.
And Amtrak COULD DO THAT. It's all about MONEY and it's all about politics, and that brings us back to "defecate/lid" or as I learned it in the sausage works here in Smallbany (the legislature) ...
CARNE DIEM (Seize the meat)
There is merit in what you say. Now, why is Amtrak not saying it? In part because they may have been told by their political bosses "We don't believe there is a crisis here, so you're not going to say there is one." Another piece of it could be some internal disagreements about just how serious this situation is. And then there's bureaucratic inertia.
Read the Wall Street Journal today - look at the front page story about Emery and the FAA. It's not exactly the same thing, but the story illustrates phenomena with similar origins...
I worked in the wonderful world of political sausage packing for years as a "journalist" and by doing so, got to hang around the power brokers when the camera lights were OFF ...
Amtrak's reality is the same for any other "political entity" ... "rock the boat, we'll KILL you." ANYONE in a "management" position in a political entity knows the reality, "keep your head low and always wear your cup." Amtrak's safety people are VERY concerned about the condition of the evacuation chambers. More is better, faster egress is better. Asking for money to *DO* it is bad in a time when cutting taxes is a religious mantra ...
Unfortunately, politics is only REACTIVE ... there IS NO PROBLEM until AFTER 50 people die ... THEN something will be done after the press goes nuts. This is how politics work. There is NEVER a problem until it results in bad press ... hate to say it, but this is the reality. If it cost a couple thousand bucks to solve the problem, then the fixes can be buried in a budget for new lightbulbs. Since this is going to cost a $billion, it's going to require a $billion worth of political capital. This only comes after a mass extinction event.
THAT'S the reality ...
We obviously need to spend more money on Latin instructors. "Diem" means "day," not seize. Tsk. Tsk.
Heh. I was WONDERING when someone would catch that. I did that deliberately for the joke value of the letter substitution, but figured I'd get by with it. To my horror, I DID ... until now. OK, well, on "Meat Day" you still seize the meat, no? :)
Baaaaaloneeeeyyyyy, I was at the Freedom Tunnel (Empire Connection, west side improvement Tunnel) And they cleaned up all the garbage in it, also for some reason (good thing) they sandblasted all the bad murals, and left the good ones in tact.
not that tunnel - the tunnels under the east and hudson rivers. they're all sorts of F'ed up. (not track wise, but access/safety wise).
hmm like the Vacuum tunnel of death? that tunnel?
Not at all. Has anybody been reading the papers? There is a crack Little League team from the Bronx currently in the Little League World Series in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. They have a helluva team and even though they play Oceanside, California tonight I'm having a hard time deciding who I want to win. I think it would be great for the Bronx to win the World Series. Those kids come from a poor area, many are immigrants or children of immigrants, so it is a kind of Horatio Alger story. And being the romantic I am, I believe it would be a great thing for them to win it. So for tonight at least I root for the Bronx against California, no small feat. If Cal wins I can root them on the next two games. But for tonight, Go Bronx.
SeaBeach Fred rooting for the Bronx? Will be ever be able to get over that?
Fred root for the Bronx. Wow
That means anything can happen now.:-)
Want to see what the subway car reef might look like 10 years from now? I remembered hearing that some PATH "K" cars were dumped as reefs before, and I found a site with some photos of diving the PATH car reef.
http://www.gotosnapshot.com/Subway%20Cars/Subway_catalog.html
-Dave
Now we know why NJ doesn't want our subway cars. They are reserving space for the PATH fleet.
Are these PATH cars or are they Philadephia cars? On another dive site that's been linked here before they were referenced as Philly's.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the confusion lies in the fact that Philly took the K car trucks and the bodies got dumped. Those are definitely "K" cars.
K-cars? Or Pennsy MP-51 or 52 cars? Both were built the same, as they were, I.I.N.M., a 50-50 between the H&M (PATH’s predecessor) and the Pennsylvania Railroad.
Ok, "K-Style" cars. I don't know which numbers got sunk.
Dave! You forgot the mandatory disclaimer ...
"Although I suspect these were K-cars, at no time do I represent or intend to imply that Lee Iacocca had anything to do with their manufacture." :)
By the way, are these cars considered "Preserved"?
Or are they placed in "non-transportation" service?
Certainly they do not qualify as scrapped.
Cheers...
Gerry
I'd consider them submarines. Up periscope, Scotty ... someone's blocking the fan window. :)
"Scxuttled" would be a good term for the cars.
Consider them "was-salaam'd"
Rim shot!!
It looks as if that young lady in the motorman's cab was about to charge 'er up and give 'er juice.:-)
It's make for a hell of a light show at that water conductivity level.
The new designation for those cars should be the Atlantic Scuttle
SOUTH FERRY! :)
No, no, no. Cuba. As in, "They're going to fly the train to Cuba."
You're a sick man, Rico.
Speaking of "kooba" I think I already told the story here a long while ago about a Friday afternoon in the presence of Abbie Hoffman on one of his visits to NYC where he picked up a pay phone known to be "hot," called a few of his friends and told them that everyone was going to get together to hijack the Staten Island Ferry and take it to Cuba ... of course, the boat barely carries enough fuel to get it out of the harbor but that didn't occur to the law enforcement types that showed up at 5pm at the ferry slip on the Friday afternoon with guns.
And AFAIK Chrysler's Bradley M-1 tank never ran a day on the LIRR (though it moves faster) :-)
Hahahaha ... two points! :)
Now face east and PRAY to the Iacocca ...
Place your wagers ... 5 years TOPS for the rustbirds down there? Water's a bit warmer and almost 50 years of NYC rain have pretty much given the IRT cars the edge. :)
7 years I got 7
Remember these are NY units. RUST! Rust don bodder us. We got your rust right here. I say easily ten years.
murf..............
Yeah, but they were BUILT in St Louis ... and some in Berwick was it? And I got yer bondo right here ... it'll just pass inspection. HEY! Put that magnet away!
Actually, steel rusts SLOWER when covered with water. Remember, rust is iron oxide. While water contains oxygen, it's the cyclical exposure to water then air that result in heavy rust.
-Hank
Pooper. :)
Just don't want to see anyone lose money by being misinformed on the event they're wagering upon.
-Hank
People play Lotto every day, even though the odds are MUCH greater that a motorman will step out of the cab, hand the railfan his handles and say, "here ya go kid ... it's your train now." :)
Should be amusing though to see how many years it takes for the redbirds to become stains on the ocean floor. They say the Titanic is now fading fast and the water down where that is is MUCH colder and still. In addition to the oxidizers, there's also bacteria that EAT steel ...
The Bondo should hold up even longer. I'll bet some of those cars have more Bondo on their sides than steel.
Why, they look just the Redbirds that're still running!
I thought they looked more like BMT standards in their final days.
So!! ( U R 2 ) lazy to recycle the metal & re use it properly so continue to POLLUTE & POISON the life giving ocean !!!
the ocean ONCE AGAIN has been under ATTACK from "" mankind"" so long now throw you garbage into the ocean ( again ) shit !!!!!!!
So!! ( U R 2 ) lazy to recycle the metal & re use it properly so continue to POLLUTE & POISON the life giving ocean !!!
"continue to POLLUTE & POISON the life giving ocean !!!"
There are literally thousands of ships on the bottom of the oceans, sunk from storms, icebergs, collisions, war, etc.. I don't think a bunch of subway cars is going to add too much to the grand total of metal and asbestos in the sea when you consider the huge battleships and aircraft carriers down there.
There are literally thousands of ships on the bottom of the oceans...
Not to mention Susquehanna steam engine #141 (under the Indian Ocean).
well the ocean did well without all of that JUNK for millions of years right ?........lol!!
The world also did very well without you for billions of years. Must be a coincedence, huh?
not really it was blessed when i was born .....lol !!!
"Not to mention Susquehanna steam engine #141 (under the Indian Ocean)."
You can't just set forth a juicy tidbit like that without SOME explanation. :^)
OMG the poor ocean & she is all we got on our overpolluted planet earth !!!
The Earth is overpopulated by one...
lets throw you into the ocean..hehehehehe
About 1990, the NYS&W purchased a QJ class 2-8-2 steam locomotive from the Datong Locomotive Works of China, This Locomotive,NYS&W 141 was loaded aboard a ship bound for the U.S. Enroute, the ship sank DEEP in the Indian Ocean. To replace the 141, Datong built another 2-8-2, NYS&W 142 which serves the Susie-Q today.
Then they can (assuming B-division rollsign) sign it up as Greenpoint Avenue on the G.
Why? It has an exit onto INDIA Street.
Grade crossing/trespassing issue is on the table again. Boston Globe today reported a person being struck in a fenced off section of MBTA trackage at 11.30am yesterday. Who would be stupid enough to be out on track during busy time?
January 1998 death of a teenager led to Amtrak being ruled liable and had to make an out of court settlement. Perhaps the court system will always side with the little pedestrian *sigh*
I have no more to say on this subject...
Here's the link.
Uh-oh. Why did I spent 50 cents buying the Globe? Oh yeah, what's more -- there was someone at Davis Sq this morning selling Globe for 25 cents rather than the 50 cents the newspaper machines usually sell at. I was so mad. But then, it was only over a quarter.
I suppose carrying a copy of the Globe makes me look like a local. It's worth paying the price.
MBTA must stand for Murder Bay Transportation Authority
MBTA has announced that it is starting a new night owl service on trial for one year. They were probably following WMATA's example. The new buses will serve all the subway stations (for some reason MBTA presumably decided they couldn't change their maintenance schedules), and will run from 1am to 2.30am every half hour departing Government Center.
This is a step in the right direction! However, the service area is limited as are the hours. In my neighborhood, bus service ends at 9:30 PM on Saturday!
A few weeks ago, someone wanted information about the trackage along Flatbush Avenue from Atlantic Avenue to Grand Army Plaza, and was directed to the historical maps here, where Joe Brennan has put together two maps detailing the construction of the joint IRT/BMT subway in Brooklyn, circa 1920, specifically The Brooklyn IRT #2, showing the Joint Contracts 3 and 4 Line under Flatbush Avenue and the Eastern Parkway Subway.
This is a wonderful diagram, showing track configurations and elevations.
Is there a similar diagram of the 6th Avenue track configurations and elevations showing the IND local and express tracks AND the PATH tracks, and all the stations, between 34th Street and West 4th Street?
AFAIK the 6th Ave. express tracks stay pretty much beneath the PATH tracks all the way down 6th Ave. and duck beneath the Canarsie line at 14th St. The 6th Ave. local tracks are on either side of the PATH tracks. Not sure if they're above or beneath the Canarsie line at 14th. At 34th St. the 6th Ave. line goes above the LIRR and Amtrak tunnels, then dives down to clear the BMT Broadway line. You can see this plainly in the station. Plus you can get a good idea of just how deep the northern end of the station is by looking at the height of the columns as you walk down that ramp.
The 6th ave local tracks are above the Canarsie line. From the L train platform you have to go up a set of stairs to get to the 6th Ave. line platform.
There's some very interesting construction between 14 St and W 4 St. The 6th ave local tracks begin a steep downgrade heading south from 14 St until they reach the same level as the express tracks at about 8 St, while the PATH also starts a steep downgrade at 12 St heading south. At 9 St the PATH turns right heading towards Christopher St, crossing OVER the 6 Ave tracks and UNDER the 8th Ave IND tracks coming in from Greenwich Ave. So you can view the complex arrangement between 9 St and 8 St as a "triple decker sandwich", 8th Ave IND on top, PATH in the middle and 6th Ave IND on the bottom!
I guess I won't be making that trip to DC after all. Check the story below:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010822/pl/high_speed_train_3.html
What, you wouldn't take Acela to DC if it stops in some additional places, like Newark, Philly, Wilmington, etc? I bet the time for the additional stops isn't even that much given the speed restrictions within the station limits.
Each additional stop costs you about 3-4 minutes, depending on the linespeeds in the area. Given Amtrak's tendency to dwell at stations longer than necessary, this probably becomes 5-6 mins, and that means 4 extra stops will cost you an extra half hour. Psychologically, it is very irritating for the passengers. It has long been known in transportation circles that the direct "cracks" don't make $$ unless the stoppers are overflowing with passengers to the distraction of the long haul passengers. That is certainly not true of the Acela, so the "cracks" don't have a hope in hell of pulling in some dosh. I will revise that opinion when the "stopping" Acelas begin selling out on a regular basis.
I suggest that whilst the stops are annoying to long haul passengers, it is the most sensible business decision Amtrak could have made under the circumstances. I'd much rather see the Acela run full than run half-empty.
I agree. This is still playing out, so we'll see what happens. Further ROW improvements are needed, as well as all 20 trainsets iun service; Amtrak can reduce prices if it needs to, as well.
I would think that with a train running at 135 on the straightaway and better around curves, it could come close to a 2.5 hour NY-Wash schedule with stops...
I would still take Acela Express to DC with the stops. The purpose for taking this trip would be a riding experience and the speed of the train. But for others, it may not be so.
B"H
like me for instance. i was considering going to DC for a job interview, and found out to my dismay that the fare for the acela express from NYP to WAS was $288! whoa! *and* it was scheduled for something like 3.5 hours or something ridiculous. for the same money, i could fly and spend a total of 4 hours less in transit. (including cab/metro rides and such). sheesh...no wonder amtrak can't make this work. noone in their right mind is going to pay that kind of money for that level of service. the local train was *only* $194. even that was a ridiculous rate imho.
amtrak is doomed.
-yitz
I am goin to LIC yard next week. Does anyone know which Diesels use the old Montauk branch and what time they leave?
thanx
I am goin to LIC yard next week. Does anyone know which Diesels use the old Montauk branch and what time they leave?
I believe there's only one inbound train still using the Montauk branch. It leaves Jamaica about quarter after eight weekday mornings.
Train # 560 LIC to O.Bay uses the "lower Montauk" in the P.M. also.
It leaves at 8:11.
Could someone provide some information as to what line is the "old" Montauk line, (say as per the reverse side of the subway map, the side with all the LIRR and MetroNorth routes). And does what is its western terminus? I seem to recall some posting here talking about the Montauk branch in what would seem to be areas west of Jamaca.
Thanks
Bill/Piggo
Could someone provide some information as to what line is the "old" Montauk line, (say as per the reverse side of the subway map, the side with all the LIRR and MetroNorth routes). And does what is its western terminus? I seem to recall some posting here talking about the Montauk branch in what would seem to be areas west of Jamaca.
The Montauk line in Queens, often called the Lower Montauk, runs from just west of Jamaica station to the Long Island City yard. It crosses over the J/Z line by the latter's 121st Street station in Richmond Hill, runs through Forest Park and Glendale, passes through the NY&A's Fresh Pond freight yard, crosses under the M line just south of the latter's Metropolitan Avenue terminal, and finally runs a bit to the north of Newton Creek. The Long Island City yard is a couple of blocks south of the 7 line's Vernon-Jackson station.
And it would be great if it could someday be converted to a subway line.
:-) Andrew
NIMBY,
It goes from nowhere to noplace and it would be used by nobody.
same as the Rockaway Branch. Neither could pay their way>
avid
The Montauk Branch has its western terminus in Long Island City, about a block from the East River. For the last few years, trains on the branch have operated non-stop between LIC and Jamaica. The eastern terminus is -- surprise -- Montauk.
One small detail: this branch does not correspond to any branch or service on the current timetable. Traffic from the eastern terminus now is diverted at Jamaica through Forest Hills and Woodside into Penn Station. Most traffic from LIC is diverted through Hunterspoint, Woodside, and Forest Hills to Jamaica. One (Oyster Bay) train per day in each direction, I believe, follows the Montauk Branch trackage between LIC and Jamaica.
That's why people talk about the part of the Montauk Branch west of Jamaica as the "old" or "lower" Montauk Branch.
One nice thing about taking the LIRR to Long Island City is that the platform is located right in the middle of the yard. You therefore get to walk through an active yard, something that's certainly not possible anywhere else.
The sign used to say: Long Island City Passenger Yard
Whenever they close Hunterspoint (like they did the last three summers) this is a very busy yard, with switchers moving the trains to the four tracks with "platforms". They demolished the staircases on tracks 6 & 7 after HP was reopened, so there are only two tracks with a platform now.
You have a number Oyster Bay of equipment and employee trains in the weekday mornings train #'s 4800, 4802, 4804 4898 starting at 9.02am
Also train #507 terminates at LIC at 8.34am and you have equipment and revenue train #'s 558 and 560 starting at 4.01pm.
Hope this helps you at.
No train leaves LIC at 8.11
It leaves Jamica at 8:11 AM.
Tony Mirabella here. This is my new handle.
Cool name, but I have a funny version of that name...titaniclover... thats what the redbirds are reinacting.
Or maybe extinctbirds.
Ok, ok, redbirds still are out there, but since I have not been around as long as you I can't share the same opinion, but I do respect it at least a redbird cult is not forming.
Redbird Cult Leader: If the redbirds are going then so are we (shivers)
How about Endangered Species :-)
Redbirds rule the reef 8->
Go back to the old one. The Redbirds days are numbered. The first 27 are on the bottom of the Atlantic off Delaware.
So Very Right On!
I like it 2 !!
Makes me think of an educational game involving fish called Odell Down Under... the high scorer is the Reef Ruler. Now all it needs is a picture of a redbird...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whilst I am sad that I will be unable to go on the last filed trip on the PCC's I am looking forward to riding the new LRV's in November. Last year I enjoyed my frist rdie on Newark's PCC's and fell in love with them and became a PCC fan.
I just hope there are some Redbirds left also. One more Redbird express run on the 2 and 7 would be just the ticket. Does anyone have the latest info ?
Simon
Swindon UK
There should be a couple of hundred Redbirds left come the third week of November. What is going to sea now is the 1959 cars - R26 and R28 - plus some of the oddballs like the R36MLs and the Pelham Worlds Fair cars. There were dozens if not hundreds of R33 out today on the #2 plus the #7 fleet is still close to 100% Redbird - the presence of a lone R62A nonwithstanding. Only one R142 was seen on the #2 today - 6326-7-8-9-0 and 6501-2-3-4-5.
wayne
Save me a Redbird, I'll be over in November.
Simon
Swindon UK
There is one from each line with your name on it.
I fully expect 'Birds to be in service on the #2, #5 and #7, and perhaps if we are lucky, the #4 come November.
wayne
Hey, Wayne, we'll have to make sure to ride on a few Redbirds two months from tomorrow. I'm sure we'll catch an R-142 at some point as well.
Absolutely, I am sure there will be some Redbirds left, in fact, quite a few. The only ones that will probably be gone are the R26, R28, R29 and maybe the R36ML and Pelham WF cars. Not sure about the singles. The R33 and R36WF look to be the last to go.
wayne
Promise? front car, railfan window, cant wait.
Simom
Swindon UK
Today was my company's annual picnic, held of all places on Ellis Island. I must say that the immigration museum was quite an experience. It's definitely worth a visit.
At any rate, while I was waiting at the Ellis Island ferry dock to go back to Manhattan, a confused-looking woman got off the boat that had just arrived from the Statue of Liberty, looked around, and asked in a fairly loud voice, "Is this Manhattan?"
Dozens and dozens of people must have heard her, but not one person answered - presumably, like me, they were struck speechless!
Hey, you know, one island is just like any other.
She didn't arrive by motorized paraglider did she?
You should have told her "Manhattan? You're in New Jersey by ruling of the Supreme Court."
You should have told her "Manhattan? You're in New Jersey by ruling of the Supreme Court."
Ellis Island is in New Jersey by geographical location.
There was a case between New York and New Jersey that went to the Supreme Court to decide which state the Island was in. The Supreme Court appointed a special master to review documents and make a determination. The determination was that Ellis Island was in New Jersey. I remember reading a quote from the mayor of New York
"If my parents knew Ellis Island was in New Jersey, they would have stayed in Italy."
Michael
There was a case between New York and New Jersey that went to the Supreme Court to decide which state the Island was in. The Supreme Court appointed a special master to review documents and make a determination. The determination was that Ellis Island was in New Jersey. I remember reading a quote from the mayor of New York
"If my parents knew Ellis Island was in New Jersey, they would have stayed in Italy."
The original part of Ellis Island, where the main building and today's immigration museum is located, remains part of New York. New Jersey has the landfill portions that contain the hospital and other secondary buildings. It's important to note that most or all of the New Jersey portions are unrenovated and closed to the public. In short, New York got only a smaller portion of Ellis Island, but it's the portion that matters.
By that logic, so is Staten Island.
Agreed.
I'll bet the immigrants back in the operating days of Ellis Island said the same thing.
I'll bet the immigrants back in the operating days of Ellis Island said the same thing.
I found out something I didn't know while touring the immigration museum. Almost all immigrants landed initially in Manhattan, at the docks of the various steamship companies, and then were ferried to Ellis Island for processing - they didn't go directly to Ellis. In addition, the average stay on Ellis Island was only about five hours. Most of the immigrants completed processing without delay and either returned to Manhattan on the ferry or, more commonly, went to the (still preserved) train station in New Jersey for destinations elsewhere in the country.
Unscrupulous railroad ticket agents sometimes would sell immigrants tickets by unnecessarily roundabout routes. The agents apparently got commissions on their ticket sales, hence the incentive to sell overpriced tickets. So when you hear these horror stories about foreigners at Kennedy Airport being given cab rides into Manhattan via Poughkeepsie, just remember that the drivers are upholding an old if not honest tradition!
Sounds like a woman I encountered on the Staten Island Ferry a couple of years ago, who asked, "what's that city with all the tall buildings over there?"
Well, you know, she did just 'get off the boat' . . . and at Ellis Island still.
The debate over expansion at O'Hare continues. During the most recent public hearing in Bensenville, the Suburban O'Hare Commission packed the assembly hall with 3000 people who jeered and shouted down anybody who dared voice support for expanding the airport.
The mayor of Elk Grove Village declared that the city's expansion plans were "the height of arrogance." This is the mayor of the town that is home to United Airlines and who recieves God-knows how much tax revenue from United being there. Talk about arrogance.
Illinois Senate President James "Pate" Phillip, whose district includes O'Hare and Bensenville, declared O'Hare a "has-been." (Pate Phillip is sort of the Jesse Helms of Illinois politics, an extreme right-wing Republican who has consisently opposed any legislation that has even the slightest whif of progressive thought.)
Chances are they're waging a losing battle, but they aren't going away without putting up a fight.
These people are very loud, very fanatical, and very well-financed. They also have the sympathies of many powerful state and suburban politicians, including Governor George Ryan. Under Illinois law, the governor has veto authority over any proposed expansion of the airport. However, There are proposals in congress to strip the governor of such powers, since this is very much an interstate commerce issue.
Expansion of O'Hare is more than just a Chicago or a Midwestern issue. Delays at O'Hare cause delays at LaGuardia, Denver, Cincinnati, Atlanta, Dallas, and just about any other major airport in the country. As they say, "When O'Hare sneezes, everybody else catches a cold."
This is why you need to be involved in this debate as well. Here's what you can do to help us out:
Write to Governor George Ryan and urge him to support expansion of O'Hare. Drop a postcard or letter in the mail to:
Office of the Governor
207 Statehouse
Springfield, IL 62706
E-mail the governor at governor@state.il.us or log on to www.ohare.com and click on a letter to Governor Ryan and your local congressman.
Tell your congressman that you support runway development at O'Hare. Even if you live in New York and use JFK as your "home" airport, this still concerns you and your congressman.
For those of you who live in Chicagoland, tell your neighbors and friends that now is the time to get involved. Spread the word even if you don't live in Chicagoland.
Dial the City of Chicago's toll-free number for more information on the future of O'Hare: 1-866-OHARE-4-U (1-866-642-7348).
When O'Hare is expanded, there will also be greatly increased pressure for rapid transit improvements such as express trains to both airports and a crosstown "L" line that connects O'Hare and Midway. But it won't happen if O'Hare is paralyzed by NIMBY opposition!
Thanks... Your involvement is greatly appreciated!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks for posting some ways in which people can help. I think I'll send an e-mail to the Governor. You are right, this is much more than a local Chicago issue.
One thing does puzzle me - why are some politicians joining the fight? Are they really that concerned about the NIMBY neighbors? Or could some of them have ulterior motives (e.g. a financial interest in the Petone alternative)?
Rule number one - politicians *ARE* chickenshits. Rule number two - elections *ARE* a popularity contest, nothing more. Rule number three - pander to the side that you think has the highest number of people who will vote for YOU if they're happy. Welcome to the sausage factory. Pandering is a crime ONLY if you're a woman. :)
Or could some of them have ulterior motives (e.g. a financial interest in the Petone alternative)?
There's the rub. They don't give a rat's ass about NIMBY issues, but it's fairly common knowledge that most of the land around the proposed Peotone site is owned by the politicians who are most vocal about building an airport there. This was exposed by a Tribune investigation a couple years ago, and the revelations were met with a collective yawn. Even if O'Hare couldn't be expanded under any circumstances, an expanded Gary Airport would make a hell of a lot more sense than Peotone -- It even has mass transit access via the South Shore Line -- but the state politicos won't hear of it.
Part of the O'Hare expansion actually involves shifting many late-night cargo flights to Gary. (Cargo planes also happen to be among the oldest and loudest planes in use at O'Hare.) How the NIMBY's could be opposed to that, or to the Residential Sound Insulation Program, only belies the extent of their hypocricy.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As they say, "When O'Hare sneezes, everybody else catches a cold."
I've heard that said as Hartsfield's line, or maybe it was "When Hartsfield craps, everyone smells it" I can't quite remember :)
Anyway, while it's only a futile attempt for O'hare to try to become World's Busiest again (sorry), it really is important for ORD as well as the major hubs of the country to expand to preserve the country's transportation network. Easier access to airports is also an important part of that network. It's good that a proposal for an express from ORD to downtown is proposed. Under ATL's 10 year master plan, it calls for another MARTA station at a new south terminal, and possibly a third station at a new east international terminal.
The easier it is to get to an airport, the more people that can be moved faster to their gates. More runways get the planes faster to their destination, and the country becomes more productive. Which means a stronger economy.
First of all, that's a great post Dave. I'm very pleased to see it. I encourage everyone to think carefully about the issues, and if in agreement with Dave, to not be apathetic and to pitch in with a letter.
One note Dave: United Airlines has a huge hub at O'Hare, correct? O'Hare's non-expansion serves United's purposes just as well as expansion, because it helps United keep a choke-hold on gates, maintain higher fares supported by capacity limitations, and then blame others (NIMBYs, suburban legislators) for the flight delays. Of course, an expansion would help United too, so the airline likes to play both sides of the street.
One note Dave: United Airlines has a huge hub at O'Hare, correct? O'Hare's non-expansion serves United's purposes just as well as expansion, because it helps United keep a choke-hold on gates, maintain higher fares supported by capacity limitations, and then blame others (NIMBYs, suburban legislators) for the flight delays. Of course, an expansion would help United too, so the airline likes to play both sides of the street.
American Airlines also has a big hub operation at O'Hare. United's position at the airport therefore isn't quite as monopolistic as those of, say, Delta at Atlanta or US Airways at Pittsburgh.
True, but American and United together can take advantage of the current situation. Big carriers can and do cooperate to squeeze the little guys (including us).
re competition at O'Hare between United and American
True, but American and United together can take advantage of the current situation. Big carriers can and do cooperate to squeeze the little guys (including us).
I haven't heard any evidence of price-fixing at O'Hare. You generally can get reasonably priced flights to and from most destinations. Whether American and United are concerned about anti-trust actions, or just support open competition, I couldn't tell you.
Besides, if American and United did act to keep fares high at O'Hare, they'd lose more and more business to Southwest at Midway.
"I haven't heard any evidence of price-fixing at O'Hare. You generally can get reasonably priced flights to and from most destinations. Whether American and United are concerned about anti-trust actions, or just support open competition, I couldn't tell you."
You don't understand what I'm illustrating; it is not price-fixing per se. If you look at back issues of the Times, the Wall Street Journal, and aviation journals, it's explained rather well. Obviously I didn't do a good job, so let me try again:
Large carriers benefit from shortages of capacity at airports. This shortage helps keep prices higher, in general, than they would be otherwise, but is of a nature such that American and United can blame everyone but themselves for it. They don't need to price-fix in the anti-trust sense, to do it. Part of the consequence of this is that we passengers suffer delays, but again, the airlines can conveniently point the finger away from themselves. One chieftain, Delta's Mullen, has publicly advocated for expanded airport room, but you don't see others like Don Carty doing that (although each wants bigger terminals and more gate slots).
Now, if an airport expansion does happen, they'll be happy to take whatever advantage they can of it.
"Besides, if American and United did act to keep fares high at O'Hare, they'd lose more and more business to Southwest at Midway."
Maybe. But more than one carrier has gone bankrupt trying to survive a price war which Don Carty is expert at launching just outside of the antitrust boundary. Additionally, your observation is correct in a given total capacity - change that capacity, and you're still right, within the new environment, but not across environments.
I hope I've done a better job of explaining this. Read it over a couple of times - and look at old WSJ archives for a great article (I think about a year back or so).
Large carriers benefit from shortages of capacity at airports. This shortage helps keep prices higher, in general, than they would be otherwise, but is of a nature such that American and United can blame everyone but themselves for it. They don't need to price-fix in the anti-trust sense, to do it. Part of the consequence of this is that we passengers suffer delays, but again, the airlines can conveniently point the finger away from themselves.
You are right about that. I wouldn't imagine that most of the larger airlines would support the construction of new airports even if doing so were possible.* Even so, things aren't as bad as they could be; whether it's due to new entrants such as Southwest and JetBlue, the existence of secondary airports such as Midway and Islip, or just plain competitiveness, air fares have remained quite reasonable and may actually have dropped over the past few decades in constant-dollar terms.
* = other than Denver, I can't think of the last new major airport built in the United States.
United and American, the two major airlines at O'Hare, are both very much in favor of the expansion and have done incredible amounts of lobbying to get it even this far.
About 80% of the flights at O'Hare are United or American, but there's still the other large carriers such as Delta who also have a lot of flights there. Also, as Peter points out, there's always Midway down the road. I wouldn't doubt if United and American sometimes abuse their dominance of O'Hare, but that obviously hasn't stopped them from being very gung-ho about expansion.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Which part of the expansion are they most gung ho about, and how have they gone about it?
Remember that whatever a carrier says publicly, the chief can be sticking a knife into privately.
I'm not saying they actually don't want it. What I am saying is that they can profit either way by taking advantage of macro economic conditions. If O'Hare gets new runways, fine. They'll increase their flights. REMEMBER THAT THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL SCHEDULE FLIGHTS TO REDUCE CONGESTION. They will proceed in a manner best serving their profit line until congestion arises again.
If the expansion doesn't happen, they're not going to cry about it (but a new terminal is always nice!) Please see my latest post in reply to Peter Rosa.
Your comments about Midway do not address what I am talking about. On a different level, I agree, but I was discussing something quite different.
One point regarding emails: Politicians get so much email, that often staffers just delete messages wholesale. Don't email - write letters or call on the phone. Much more effective.
Maybe I should write to Dubya and ask him to get the vacuum tubes out of the control towers, as John Stossel claims they are there.
O'Hare's present control tower was completed only a couple years ago, replacing the original one, so I'd be rather surprised if it had any vacuum tubes.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I would hope not.
On that same John Stossel episode, he compared US airlines with Canadian airlines, and said that they had much less delays per space in the airport than we do, and I'd heard mutterings about this by anti-transit people on the m.t.u-t newsgroup.
Let me play devil's advocate.
What is needed is not more planes but bigger planes. The runway and air space costs for a 400-seat airliner are approximately the same as for a 200-seat airliner, a 100-seat airliner or a 50-seat feeder airliner.
Instead of scheduling two 737 each with an average of 150 seats once per hour, schedule a single 767-300 with an average of 300 seats every other hour.
This would result in a reduced number of flights for an increase in the number of passengers. Why should the 737 and 757 with a capacity of less than 200 passengers be the most popular aircraft for the domestic air carriers, when there are there are bigger aircraft available?
Ah, intelligent, rational, regulation of commerce for the public good! But 'deregulated' airlines insist on business strategies which have bankrupted most of them over the last two decades--ticket on Braniff anyone? There is IMHO no good reason why we should pave more of the land to facillitate more hub and spoke air service advertised on schedules which cannot be met because the 'slots' don't exist. I sit here cynicly thinking if we can BOTH defeat expansion of ORD and block Peotone, maybe we can twist the money(the bribers only care about the % of take not what they build) to HSR construction. Perhaps I dream.
I agree with your logic Stephen. A 767 will move more people at lower fuel cost (greater efficiency) than two 737's. No question.
But, human nature being what it is, you'll probably end up seeing not only the larger planes, but more of them. Any slack in the schedule will be filled with more planes...any available disk space will soon be filled with more data...any available shelf space will be filled with more books...any available or new highway lanes will be filled with more cars...
any available disk space will soon be filled with more data...any available shelf space will be filled with more books...any available or new highway lanes will be filled with more cars...
According to the NY Times, even California is no longer proposing the illogical reaction to building more freeways to meet increased demand. The only way to force, what you state is a more rational policy, is to remove the illogical policy from consideration.
The airlines will not get additional landing spots. They will have the following choice: keep the same "overloaded bookshelves" with their associated delays or reduce the number of flights and reduce flight time. If they airlines continue to run their planning on autopilot, then the airports should institute some form of demand pricing with the landing fees. Let there be a sliding scale based on number of passengers enplaned, with discounts for more passengers enplaned per operation.
I agree with your plan, Stephen, but I assure you the Airline Transport Association's lobbyists would do their best to screw it up. Of course, that's how we got here in the first place. :0)
Nonetheless, I am setting aside my skepticism and voting with you on this one!
On Aug 16, the Phil. Inquirer ran a story about US Air's intention to defer delivery of Airbus aircraft now on order, and instead buy more regional jets (50-75 seats each), because a large percentage of flights with larger airplanes had many unoccupied seats. US Air's chairman, Stephen Wolf, and other airline executives feel that they want to maintain frequent feeder flights into major hubs; that is, they want to emphasize schedule. However, they need smaller jets with lower operating costs to do it.
This is in direct opposition to what Stephen Baumann describes, and I support to a degree, as desirable. But it illustrates the kind of political pressure the airlines will exert to get their way.
Regional jet purchases will tend to favor makers such as Embraer of Brazil, or Raytheon's subsidiaries, or British Aerospace, or Israel Aircraft Industries products, rather than Boeing, whose smallest jet is the 717 (ex MD-95), and Airbus.
I was aware of the basic economics governing air travel, when I made my suggestion. The fundamental problem is that only part of the air travel operations were deregulated - the flight portion. Traffic management, including takeoffs and landings, remains regulated and under government control.
Individual airlines have discovered how to maximize their own profits while minimizing their own risks under this system - small planes with frequent flights. The problem is that when all airlines pursue this same strategy, the regulated and government-run components of air travel become saturated.
The solution is to institute economic deterrents in the form of user fees that force airlines to pursue a more rational procurement and scheduling policy in their own economic interest. The basic parts of such a pricing structure are not hard to fathom. They must be a significant part of the overall costs associated with a flight from the airline's perspective. I'm all for letting market forces work. Sending the bill to Uncle Sam, which is what the current system does, is not a real market forces for the long run.
I agree with your argument. It is internally consistent.
You either regulate the components, or deregulate the components, but making sure the players are all on a level field.
Regional jet purchases will tend to favor makers such as Embraer of Brazil, or Raytheon's subsidiaries, or British Aerospace, or Israel Aircraft Industries products, rather than Boeing, whose smallest jet is the 717 (ex MD-95), and Airbus.
I believe Bombardier also makes regional jets.
They make small private and corporate jets under the Learjet name, but I'm not so sure about regional jets.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Around 22:10pm tonight saw R142a #7482 on flatbed at Gun Hill Rd heading east.
Peace
David Justiniano
Article in this week's Onion:
Family of Five Found Alive In Suburbs
It's funny because it's true. (And I've even been to Buffalo Grove!) If only the New York Times had reporting this good!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I love The Onion in that not only are its articles funny as hell, you can sometimes read between the lines for a message they feel should be addressed. This is defintely one of those articles.
The Onion Has been my source for news for a looong time, Who Needs CNN or BBC when you Got the Onion feeding you correct opinions, and you know you agree with 'em too
An Onion frequenter myself, I had come across the article and busily forwarded it to everyone I know. I have yet to read another parody that better tears suburban culture (or the lack thereof) apart. I wonder what the Great Robert Moses would think if he read that article? It's too bad he's not alive to hear the modern take on the culture of individualism he championed.
My favorite parts were about going to "Deck The Walls" in the mall and the fact that even Eskimos in the arctic wasteland have culture.
It hit even me a little close to home, since I spent a good deal of my life growing up in suburbia. But now I'm back on the Upper East and loving it. Your anti-suburbanite,
MATT-2AV
Why the !@#$% would my employer restrict this site?!! :O(
Why the !@#$% would my employer restrict this site?!! :O(
Mine does too. I have it bookmarked at home.
I think it's usually high on the list of "Sites People are Surfing to While At Work".
I hope to God this one never falls into that catagory!
I'm visiting the City this weekend (for the Sunday D-trip among other things) and am wondering about the new Staten Island station. From the Yankee web site, it looks like there's a game on Saturday night. Is it possible to ride the SIRT into the station and then out again without going to the game?
Also, where should I get on?
Thanks much,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Yes, it's possible. You can get on a shuttle train in St. George that takes you to the stadium.
-Hank
Why would you want to do that? The Staten Island Yankees stadium is adjacent to the St. George Staten Island Ferry Terminal. The trip from there to the stadium should take all of 2 mins. or less. across a parking lot, that's it!
There were at least a dozen of us today on Thurston's trip. I will let someone else write a narrative if they would like. I have put all of my pictures taken during the trip (except the Acela sighting) on my website. I took more than 60 pictures of the PCC's.
Check them out by clicking the link below.
-Harry
Check out the pictures at my website: The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Pigs and I will be taking a trip to Oldark tomorrow. I will be arriving on the 1:40 New Haven Line train at GCT and we will proceede down the 4/5/6 to Fulton where we will make a PATH connection. ETA at Oldark Pencil Station is 2:40. We will make at least one round trip, maybe maybe two, depending on out TA.
Oldark? Where?
The Oldark Country Superway.
Great Shots. I took about 40 pictures also. I'll have the pictures done sometime over the weekend and then sent it off to Mr. Pirmann.
Paul
I want to thank Thurston for getting this trip off the ground and doing such a great a job. Even that little bit extra on PATH was GREAT!!
Good trip all around (except for the rain).
Thanks Mr. T!!
Yeah, congrats to Mr. T for a great gathering of SubTalkers (minus Andee) at Newark for the ride on the 'last of the PCCs's' with the 'icing on the cake' being the #6 Public Service Commission car.
BMTman
Ditto. It was great seeing everyone also, some old and some new. The PATH was a extra treat along with car #6 on the Newark Subway.
Thanks Thurston for the trip.
Paul
Hear, hear! We didn't let the rain stop us from having another great field trip. The rarely seen PATH relay and subway turnaround were added bonuses. The end-of-an-era historic overtones no doubt contributed to a big turnout of old friends and some new faces.
Today will probably be a madhouse, so it's good that we had the chance to really give the old cars the attention they deserve.
It's gonna be weird riding ultramodern LRV cars through those meticulously recreated underground stations. The sound of those groaning traction motors during acceleration will be missed.
Ditto! Thurston - great job. Really nice trip despite the wet weather. Great to have a PATH engineer who is a buff as well. BMT Man, Lou, Howard, Spanky - good to see you all. Looking forward to the next trip. Maybe in Oct. we can go again and see the new LRVs in operation, but it won't be the same as the PCCs. On the way home I did some thinking - I first rode the Newark PCCs in 1962. I really thought they would run forever.
Well, we could always go to Boston for a weekend and ride the PCCs on the Mattapan Ashmont Line. Those cars will run indefinitely - I was on that line in June 2001.
It was a beautiful trip, despite the rain. I will miss my PCC trolley cars, I do hope they get a good home, wherever it is they are going. Such wonderful machines. The trip on #6 through the loop was a real treat. So was seeing all my SubTalk friends again.
I, too can not envision the LRVs running through the Newark City Subway. I wonder how they'll handle the ultra-tight loop at the north end. And there will only be sixteen of them I hear.
Thanks again for a good time. I got about 20 photos, I reckon.
wayne
I was there Friday night for the last rides by NJT. They had a brass band and gave away tons of freebies. According to a brochure , the line will still be replaced by bus on weekends until the enw signal system is finished and the extension is opened. Heller Parkway will continue to be used until the extension is opened. I plan on returning Monday PM to ride the new cars.
Your friend Peggy Darlington was there with us Thursday, in spirt, as my handout included her write up of PATH from our 1999 trip.
Mr t__:^)
Also, we were graced with her presence aboard the "D-Types to the Docks" trip...
;-)
BMTman
And i met her on Friday on PCC's last day
Very nice shot of #6 in her "Public Service" colors.
This was a grand trip, despite the rain. First many of us knew the operator of the PATH 5:59 (he's also a long time member of Branford & has volunteered to help us put on 6688's top coat). I know he enjoyed our company on the trip out. We also eminencly enjoyed the PCC portion, not letting the little rain drops dampen our spirts. Took many photo ops at Orange & Franklin Streets. When we caught #6, colleague Sparky rang up our fares (with permission from the operator), then he talked him into letting us do the loop.
But one of the best parts of the trip was all the SubTalkers & Branford members with us to enjoy this specail evening: BMTman, Lou from Brooklyn, Sparky, Pietr, Doris, Walter, Paul P., Andy S., Silver Fox, Slant 40 Wayne, Howard F., KMA, E_Dog, High St/Brooklyn Bridge (Harry), Robert T/O, Andrew, AND our own Dave Pirrman.
I do an "official" write up & submit to Dave for the "Field Trip" section of this site.
BTW, Lou finally got a REAL ride on a R-142 (Times Sq. to Chambers) with me & several others who did the Red Birds on the #7.
Mr t__:^)
I have about 40 pictures of the trip that are being developed. As soon as I get them, I sent them to Mr. Pirmann to go with your write up.
Paul
Well, I missed you guys by almost an hour and a half on Thursday! I had hoped to skip out of work early (6:15 as opposed to 6:30) and catch up at Orange or Franklin, then my girlfriend called to say she was running late... got going at 6:35, just missed a Journal Square train, and finally got to Franklin Ave around 7:30. We probably passed you going in the other direction. After dinner, we waited at the soon to be abandoned Heller Pkwy station, and, as luck would have it, #6 was the next car! The motorman was funny; he noticed I was taking pictures from my seat and said, "Don't be shy; you can get up and take your pictures." The NJT staff was very good about letting us take photos back at Penn, too... that poor motorman is going to need some time off to let his eyes rest, after having so many flashes go off in his face last week.
I got out there Friday night, too, a little before 9:00. Total mob scene, but was surprised to see that the cars weren't too crowded... maybe everyone was waiting for #6? On my second trip, I sat down a couple seats behind the motorman, and someone immediately behind me asked, "are you RIPTA42HopeTunnel?" It was SilverFox and his girlfriend, and he actually got my handle right! Back at Penn, we had convinced the motorman to let us ride around the loop, but supervision said the last car was leaving and ours wouldn't be going around. We ran up and over, only to find that the last passenger car had left, and the VIP-only car was about to go. There were lots of irate railfans who mistakenly thought the last car was leaving at 10:00... funny, everything I read said it would come in at 10:00 :). I ran into Al Z, who was taking the 9:56 PATH back to WTC, so the three of us decided to catch it... it's always a fun ride on his train. We shared the car with a couple of foamers, including one carrying an ad-sized strip map from a PCC (Al: "I wanted one of those, but they ran out").
Damn, I'm going to miss those cars. Hopefully, I'll have photos up by the end of the week, like you all need to see more of them :).
Here's another long winded posting, a copy from my posting on the PCCtrolleys yahoo group about the NCS PCC Last Supper. I wrote this about 3am the night of the retirement party.
I thought I was going to be late, with all my biz calls in the car on the way in. Got to Newark Penn station at 11:30, bought two tickets at the machine, forgot to validate them. Got downstairs to run into a huge mob of the suit and tie crowd waiting at the platform with an equally huge mob of camera laden fans mixing with people trying to get home/to work. I think the suits were waiting for car 11 (all deco'd in bunting) to pick them up, but she decided not to cooperate, and apparently would not come out of emergency despite valiant efforts by the maint. personel. Transfered to car 17 on the next track. Made it on time to the ceremonies with people obviously not used to standing in un-air conditioned public transportation.
Listened to a good group of politicians, historic preservation folk, and NJT folks who had nice stories/statements about the cars (esp the guy who told the "today's catch story"). VIP's were presented with plaques made from OB Marathon round wire hangars. KEWL!
Watched alot of people roast in the mid-day sun (beautiful weather I must say), although the rude folks talking about their local systems problems at full voice volume while the speeches were going on was annoying.
Started to run into the usual suspects, folks from Baltimore, Philly, Boston, Toronto, NYers, local Jersey fans, all over. The throngs up on the hills, hanging off of bridges, standing in rush hour traffic, etc trying to get that "great shot" was probably the most amusing thing to see.
Rode the cars around (4, 10, 6, 21, 13) and then was invited to participate in taking the surplus cars from the Penn shops to transfer to the new shops. Rode car 12 with a very select few on the new section of the line with three other cars following into storage. Got back to Franklin er Branch Brook Park to ride another car to Penn and back. Rode the next batch to storage (car 28 with 1 following - the newest and the oldest). The pantographs almost stretched to their full height past Franklin Ave street crossing on the hill!
Since there was so many cars still running for everybody, there was alot of confusion as to which was the actual last revenue car around 7:30pm. Validated one of my tix just in case. I was on 6, which I think WAS the last rev car in (there were actual passengers on board wondering who these guys with all the expensive camera equipment were). Much applause when we arrived at Penn.
Went back upstairs, got a bite at WackDonalds, went back down to do the express runs. By that time I as starting to get a little bleary eyed, so I dont even remember for sure whether or not I was on 14 (I'll have to wait for the pictures to come back). Bought some stuff from the NJT store, and since it was getting around 10PM, I tried to get back downstairs to get one more run (I'm a glutton yeah I know), but transit cops had already cordoned off the stairs. Listened to the last car going around the loop and then went back to Brooklyn. Watched a little piece on the day's events on the 11pm news.
Oh well. Saw some old friends, made some new ones, talked alot about what we're doing here in Brooklyn, participated in some unusual car moves, and witnessed the close of an era in transit history.
BTW - someone asked which was the other car that got the Bochum wheels - its car 9, which will be repainted in TCRT colors as its original number of 328.
Car disposition is as of today - three going to Phillipsburg, 4 retained by NJT, the rest are up for grabs, though today it sounded like Hoboken is going to get them. Next week who knows.
Much thanks to the NJT staff who made this day come off great, like a proper retirement party. I am still smiling.
Monday morning when the Kinki's crap out they can haul out some of the veterans to show them how its done.
jan... i was there on friday for a while in the morning, until my rf (railfan) meter pinned in the danger zone...
and i was drawn back there at night to see if they had anymore of those postcards with the miniature poster celebrating the pcc cars and the city of newark... they didn't... instead i bought 6 of the posters for $5 each... i got there around 7:15, and was quite pleased to see that my rf meter was in the safe zone, and that there was no mobs... the car i did a round trip in was populated by a small number of couples, who seemed to be ordinary people... the ride was enjoyable and quite relaxing...
your description of your experience is wonderful...
i write this to recount my visit there this morning... i got there around 11:00 curious to see if there were any festivities and whether they would be giving away any more of the keychains with the nice medal on it... they weren't... there were some workers giving away those folding cardboard models of the new cars, which did not interest me...
here's where the fun began... i boarded one of the new cars, and was working myself up into a depression over their antiseptic appearance and operation, and how they seemed to be kind of overkill for such a small operation... about 4 stations out of penn station, we ground to a halt and waited for about 25 minutes for the car in front of us to move... the car i was on had few passengers, but the regular riders seemed a little unhappy that their 12 minute ride had just suffered a 25 minute delay enroute...
well we got moving again, but then came to a halt for another 10 minutes waiting for the car ahead to move again... when we finally got into the last stop, i ran to a phone to alert bmtman of the latest news about the cars... when i came back about 5 minutes later, they had latched on their little tow motor car to 101 and were hauling it off to the jersey city scrapyards...
on the return trip to penn station, things were going okay, until i noticed a strange message on the message board, and also noticed that the air conditioning had stopped and the car was moving very quietly... we had lost power... the operator got on the radio, and was directed to go to the other end of the car and reset the main circuit breakers, which seems like a rather inconvenient way to do things... it took him two trips, but we were rolling again and made it to penn station...
one of the people riding the train said that they had been having trouble with the cars all morning long... much as i was tempted to ride the cars some more and enjoy the mayhem, i opted to ride my bike around newark and marvel at some of the remaining art deco buildings outside of the main business area... i also discovered a neat bookstore called "new jersey books" that had a man playing pop songs on a piano in the front of the store... it was delight in there and i found a couple of interesting books... from the moment i left penn station, i really didn't give a damn about what the 20th century or 21st century corporation had brought to newark... there is so much wonderful stuff still to see...
Sounds like the PCCs have put a curse on the Kinkis. The PCCs were in awesome shape on Thursday; if anyone wants to know the THURSDAY evening line-up it was: 28, 15, 5, 1, 7, 10, 4, 6, 14.
We saw 2, 11, 24, 17, 9, 16 and 21 cooping at Pennsylvania.
wayne
I went on Subtalk last Thursday to check the status on the redbirds.I was lucky to find out about Friday being the last day for the pcc's.I left Pittsburgh early Friday morning and was lucky to take part in the retirement party.I loved all the trolleys especially 6,7,and 14.It's nice they will keep a few unlike Pat in Pittsburgh who won't even keep one for historical purposes.
More pictures of PCCs...
Your two shots of the left sure make this PCC fan feel good,
i.e. PCCs in revenue service carrying lots of happy folks to & from work. Good bye old friends.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for sharing with those of us that couldn't say farewell.
avid
Harry, saw that in one of the shots now on your sight that you caught Sparky ringing up the fares with BMTman's best side to the camera ;-)
Mr t
This afternoons late rush hour was ruined By a 142 nightmare.Its seems that the train didnt want to take power.it ruined my nice easy trip on the 1. They had problems turning the 2 and 3's so we were backed up as far as 59st.Some 3 trains cant go through the loop because they have transverse cabs.So they were getting turned everywhere. 2 started to go down the Lex and people were just plain pissed. By the way they had to tow that 142 at wall street away,I say BRING BACK THE REDBIRDS!!!!!!!!
>3 can't go through the loop
>because they have transverse cabs..
...so do the 1/9 and we go
through the loop just fine..
The 3 runs only 9 cars. If the transverse cab is at the C/R's position they cannot change operating positions so that they will be on the board when they go around the loop and head uptown.
I must be missing something. Why does the C/R need to change operating positions if he is in a transverse cab?
Because it was a Nine Car Train.
And that would put the conductor out of his correct position on the northbound run, and would not be able to point at the board at each stop.
If he can't point to the board, then he can't open the doors
If he can't open the doors, then passengers can't get on the train.
If passengers..... aw heck, you would think that they *could* be a little more flexible when changes have to be made.
Elias
They can't put the R-142As at Westchester in service fast enough, so that the R-62As can get to the 3, to make the train lengths 10 cars.
arent the pelham boys going to the #1
right here, right here..
ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!! ONLY 40 CARS FROM WESTCHESTER YARD ARE GOING TO 240TH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing is ever "once and for all" around here. Some don't read. Some don't remember what they read. Some are stubborn and insist on continuing to believe what they want to. (The facts will only confuse them.) Don't let it get your blood pressure up.
Was that the 6326-7-8-9-0/6501-2-3-4-5 train that pulled up VERY short at Wall Street around 5:30PM yesterday?
BTW there was a smoke condition present in the station at the time.
Don't think it was related; smelled like a track fire.
wayne
<<>>
FYI: All Redbirds have ALSO!!!! transverse cabs.
So, your statement <<<>>> does not make any sense.
huh...? No redbird has a tranverse cab...you're the one not making any sense around here.
Peace,
ANDEE
what the hell you talking about, no redbird has transverse cabs.okay
Message was not posted correctly. Sorry.
I was trying to say that redbirds do not have transverse cabs as some R62-A singles also.
In the original message it was a complain that some R62A #3 trains could not go to South Ferry loop because of that. So I was trying to say that at this point (no transverse cabs) there no difference between redbirds and R62A singles.
oh sorry, my fault then
What the poster was trying to say was some of the No.3 train could not go around the loop because of the transvse cabs. Remember on the No.3 line the Conductor must almays have 4 cars South and 5 Cars North. If you have a Transverse cab and the train goes around the loop it will mess the order up and the Conductor will always be one car past the board because now we have 4 N and 5 S. Now if its a 9 car single the Conductor can change operating positions by going back one car so you can have 5 North 4 South.
What is a transverse cab?
a full-width cab, where the Conductor or Operator doesn't have to switch positions from left to right, Narrow cabs are those that look like Boxes or closets in the car
like the one on the r62classes or on the r142. the closets are the ones on the redbirds
(Histerical Laughter)
I was doing Platform Duty at Times Square for the PM Rush Hour on the Uptown Platform on Thursday. It all started at 5:30PM a Downtown No.2 stalled at Wall Street and Control Center could not contact the crew by radio. There where lots of service changes. Downtown No.2,3 trains where being turned back uptown at Chambers St, 34 St, and Times Sq. Some trains did go around the South Ferry loop. Northbound No.3 trains were turned back to New Lots at Atlantic Ave.
Also power was turned off from South of Chambers Street to South of Wall street on TK 2.
so you mean some trains in brooklyn were running shuttle
Yes because they could not get the No.3 trains into Brooklyn.
what my beloves the No.2 im glad i was going uptown at 34 yesterday 4:30
According to my log, I left Park Place on an R142 #2 at 1726 after Birdwatching. #6326 was the south motor; I was in the 6th car, #6501. We stopped VERY ABRUPTLY at Wall Street, enough so that people in my car pitched about and lost their footing. They opened their doors after a slight delay. It looked like folks were looking towards the south (forward) end of the station at something. There was a strong odor of smoke in the station. I immediately got off the train. The train kept opening and closing its doors. At that moment a northbound #3 train pulled in and I got on, arriving back at Park Place at 1735. A Redbird #2 sat in Fulton Street. And a #3 train was sitting doors open at Park Place. That's all I saw.
wayne
Maybe that was the train with the problems.
Also one more note When I got off work at about 8PM thats when service was starting to be restored.
Damn whats your shift
I work the PM Tour as a Extra.
cool
If power was removed, I'd imagine something must have grounded out in a very unhappy way on that train. Any word of what happened?
Yes there was a very good reason why power was off but if I say then some subtalkers may go on and on how R142's are junk and Redbirds should rule the Subway.
I don't want to add fuel to a burning fire.
I can understand that ... on a southbound run, I had a shoe weld itself once upon a time, managed to pop the track breaker, they tried to restore it and had to come out with a torch to remove it. That was on an R6 ...
But yes, as long as we have folks jumping up and down over misplaced loyalties instead of realities, I suppose we'll have to forget the facts. Email addy up above is for real though if you wanna tell me off line. I promise I won't feed the foamers. :)
Maybe the citizens of NY need to know why this happened. Fires need to be put out, not fueled. The current collectors are apparently a piece of s!*t. During a test of one of the original trainsets, it also failed. Numerous problems have occured with the car borne tripping device brackets and one has to wonder why the TA is reinventing the wheel. I'd like to know why a problem of this nature took from 5:30 until 8PM to correct. I'm not here in support of old or new, I'm critical of the attitude of the TA towards its paying passengers. These new trains have new radios built in that didn't work, failing current collectors and will endure a few thousand modifications to go to make them work right. And to think the older ones couldn't stop at the Ferry to make up for the delays. At least they can't blame the union on that one.
"""""{ I say BRING BACK THE REDBIRDS!!!!!!!! }"""""!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are preeching to the ministers class here !! AMEN !! say halleeeeuuuuuaaaahhhh!!!
@ here we go !! the r-142s ( THEY ""R"" ""A""" BREAKIN' DOWN ALREADY !! ( lol ) !!!!!
give the r142s a chance
ok but first U must re-install the .......................RAILFAN WINDOW !!! ...............( sigh ) ...
true if i look at it that way
When you bring back the DC-3 propeller plane, the Ford Model T, steam locomotives and wooden railroad cars, then I'll say "Bring back the Redbirds"!
Wanna bring back a real classic subway car? How about the old BMT Bluebirds? Now there was a beautiful subway car if I ever saw one! It had a railfan window -- actually it had two, the storm door as well as another window next to it that you could sit down and look out of. The seats were cushioned and upholstered (there's a word you don't hear much when talking about subway car interiors). They were articulated, had PCC-style lighting, classy styling inside and out, and of course that nice blue and white paint job. With not one, but two shades of blue! And some red pinstriping aling the sides too! Now there was a real classic subway car!
Hear, hear! And while we're at it, let's make up a few sets of production (1936 model) MS. I'd pay to see THEM snaking through Eastern Division again.
What do I miss most? R10s, R16s (not for their speed, of course) and those wonderful GE R-6-2s (like lightning bolts!). And the R21/R22 with the dropdown front windows. I used to love to get one of those beasts on the #5 in the north motor and I'd go up there, making a point of dropping the front window open between 138-Mott Haven and 149-Mott Avenue to listen to the "moosic".
It is too bad they didn't save at least ONE Blueb. But back then they didn't have the museum.
wayne
the railfan window is the #1 thing that will be missed the most !!
( the older equipment was built better ) !!!
And while we're at it, let's bring back the DC-3! Why have powerful efficient jet aircraft, when we can have more labor-intensive propeller planes? Hey, let's bring back the Model T too! Why drive around in a quiet comfortable fuel injected cars, when carburetors and crank-operated motors will do? How about we rip down the catenary on the Northeast Corridor and bring back steam locos? Hey people may choke on the smoke, but what does that matter? Steam locomotives are older so therefore they must be better. Why don't we scrap all our steel railroad cars and go back to wood? Wouldn't you just love to ride around in elegant mahogany for a brief period of time before it starts to splinter and catch fire?
See where I'm going with this?
And while we're at it, let's bring back the DC-3! Why have powerful efficient jet aircraft, when we can have more labor-intensive propeller planes? Hey, let's bring back the Model T too! Why drive around in a quiet comfortable fuel injected cars, when carburetors and crank-operated motors will do? How about we rip down the catenary on the Northeast Corridor and bring back steam locos? Hey people may choke on the smoke, but what does that matter? Steam locomotives are older so therefore they must be better. Why don't we scrap all our steel railroad cars and go back to wood? Wouldn't you just love to ride around in elegant mahogany for a brief period of time before it starts to splinter and catch fire?
The difference is, the R142 isn't really as much of an improvement as any of the things you listed above are. It doesn't bring any new technological advance that makes life easier nor does it increase safety. A better analogy would be a Toyota Camry vs. a BMW M5: they are both easy and safe to use, one of them just feels nicer to be in, for obvious reasons.
T/Os still need to be responsible for moving the train and paying attention, conductors still have to open and close doors, and passengers still have to avoid those doors. Nothing major has changed.
Granted, conductors don't need to make announcements anymore....well, that is, if they ever re-program the announcements with respect to the B/D/Q/S/N/R/W trains.
And what did the passengers get? 2 text displays, just in case they forget where the train is (and if they can't see out the window, and can't hear the announcement, and can't read a subway map, and can't count how many stops they've been on the train....)
In my opinion, yes, the R142s are an improvement, but nothing that we couldn't do without. The redbirds could've been re-equipped with more reliable air conditioning, door sensors (for those reporters who love to blame draggings on that), and for a lot less money than we're paying for the R142s. Personally, I think the construction of a 2nd avenue line is a little more important than R142s.
and if they can't see out the window, and can't hear the announcement, and can't read a subway map, and can't count how many stops they've been on the train....
Don't try to believe you are making any sense, Rubavituphilia robs you of that.
How do you see out the window, standing up in a crowded car, what if you have poor vision? What good is the subway map if you don't know where you are, what if you CAN'T hear the announcement, or anything else for that matter? What kind of idiot (except for a rabid rubavituphiliac) sits around COUNTING subway stops?
In my opinion, yes, the R142s are an improvement, but nothing that we couldn't do without. The redbirds could've been re-equipped with more reliable air conditioning, door sensors (for those reporters who love to blame draggings on that), and for a lot less money than we're paying for the R142s. Personally, I think the construction of a 2nd avenue line is a little more important than R142s.
Rubavituphilia has clogged your mind with garbage. Do you seriously think the Redbirds, currently more Bondo than steel, can actually continue to run for more than a few more years?
Maybe we should also build new frames and bodies for them. Oh wait, that's a new car!
I beg to differ. The R142s and R142A's are a big improvement over the Redbirds. First of all I honestly believe the cost of retrofitting the Redbirds door sensors and better A/C would be an expensive and time consuming proposition. And what about all the other things? Car bodies that were rusting all the way through, peeling paint, PA systems that became the butt of many Saturday Night Live jokes, roll signs that were always in the wrong positions, small straps with five hands on them in rush hours, bad lighting, noise, a tiny closet that T/O's and C/R's have to squeeze into and stay in for hours, on top of all the bullshit they have to deal with from many angry and stupid commuters. Even if all of that were improved it would take forever. The old cars have to go. It's time.
it seems that the R-142 didn't conk out. there was a fire there at in the tracks. because of that, every other train couldn't go through. every other train had to go through but terminated at chambers st. no r-142 failed out. how do i know? because i was there!
right.. but if track fire was the culprit,
myself and a dozen fellow posters would
have WANTED the r142 to go through..
he he he he ...........lol !!
RIGHT ON SOUTH FERRY ......see U this october 2001 !!
I was hoping you wouldnt see this thread
it's HONESTly too late, Abe.
but, by way of common sense, the train wouldn't go through even right after the fire was put out. they don't know if there is damage to the track so not to cause any more trouble and possibly a tragedy, the train terminates at wall st. of course the the passengers would want to go through but they just don't know that they are going to their potential death bed
>the train wouldn't go through
...even right after the fire was put out.
You must be new to the Redbird/142 debacle...
forget about debacle. i have nothing against neither model cars. i'm talking about what happened friday afternoon.
Even if there WAS a track fire in addition to whatever was wrong with the R142, I doubt if they would have sent the train ahead into it. Remember what happened to the R62A #3 train between Borough Hall and Clark Street? That was a very bad track fire, and there was loss of life aboard the R62A. I think the TA would err on the side of caution if they suspected a track fire.
Anyway that R142 pulled up VERY short at Wall last Thursday, something was surely wrong with it.
wayne
oh. it didn't seem that way to me. the conductor didn't say anything about malfunction. except for the fire. yes i remember the r-62a fire. this is why i was telling everyone that, they would not move the train after the fire was out.
It was quite a fiasco. The entire evening rush hour was lost. It took them almost four hours to get the train out of there. Six cars on the stalled R-142, had somehow lost their contact shoes.
Most of the delay was the TA taking pictures and documenting everything they did to get the train moving since it is still under warranty.
Well since you where there maybe you can answer some questions.
1. If it was just a Track Fire why did it take 2HRS and 30Mins to put it out and resume service ?
2. You said Every other train was turned at Chambers Street. Well Control and Times Sq both said No.2+3 trains where where turning at Chambers, 34 St, and Times Square. Also Control said over the radio Power was pulled from South of Chambers Street to South of Wall Street on Track 2. The power was pulled at about 6PM and restored at about 7:40PM. In that case how could every other train go through if theres no Power.
This is getting ridiculous, somebody should contact the American Psychiatric Association and get rubavituphilia certified as a recognized mental illness that should be diagnosed and treated with MEDICATION.
A whole line is screwed up, and an R-142 happens to fail under pressure, and you complain. Yet when those things for which you have an unhealthy fetish break down DAILY, nary a mention is uttered from you.
Symptoms of severe Rubavituphilia:
Lack of common sense
Inability to distinguish between machines and living creatures
Always corresponds with mild to severe cases of technophobia.
All forms of reason from others are directed to unique inter-ear tunnel.
In rare cases, leads to strange, unexplained occurences of concern for marine ecosystems that are baseless.
May affect communists and socialists because of color.
"Redbirds" have failed to take power many times, too. It happens to trains of all car classes irrespective of their age, mileage, or anything else.
David
All it requires for "not taking power" is any of a number of interlock relays saying, nuh-uh" ... even on the R1/9's, there were a few relays and interlocks betwixt the throttle and the motors. :)
its true
Let's not have any seizures out there boys but I am thrilled for Danny Almonte and his Bronx Little Leaguers who beat my California team 1-0 last night. It is good for the Bronx and a bunch of young immigrant children who have hearts as big as all outdoors. Let's hope they can go all the way. Yes, you heard what you just read from me---#4 Sea Beach Fred. Shocked aren't you? Admit it.
Your California Team, You live 80-90 miles from Oceanside, how can they be your California Team. I have not noticed that you changed your Name to Gray Davis. Just because you live in Calif along with 23 other overcrowded people, some as much as 600 miles from Arcadia
OK Bob, time to split hairs again. You are getting good at it. You know what I meant. Hell, if a team represents my state they are my team, esspecially in a national tournament where they compete against other states. In this case I wanted the Bronx boys to win for the reasons I outlined above. To me it was the little guys taking on the establishemnt.
You keep saying your state, you are just a small part of a big State,Yopu keep saying it as if youy OWNED the State. I don t say my Virginia, or before My Hawaii
The reason is simple. You do NOT have an affinity for your states as I do for fine. I happen to be a very proud and loyal Californian, as you well know by now. That is why. BTW, any other news to report? You know what I mean.
Nothing until after the 1st
For the August 26th Fund Raising Event, 2 D Type units will be used. Leave Chambers St. at 10:30. Proceed to Essex St. middle. Change direction to Canal St., Change directions and proceed to Metropolitan Ave. Next sprint will be out to 38th St. Yard to pick up the diesels, then proceed to the dock for lunch. Following lunch, return to 38th St. yard to drop off the diesels. Back to 36 St, change direction and go via the N line to CIYD. Go around the loop and return toward 36 St. via the W line. Continue to north of Chambers St., change direction and the trip will end on the s/b platform at Chambers St. Have a safe & enjoyable journey.
Thanks for the info, Bill.
I wish everybody nothing but the best. I sure wish I could be riding the train with you folks, but work comes first as I don't know what time the trip would be over. But I MAY still wander out there for some pics. If anyone sees a tall gentlmen wearing a TA Uniform pursuing the D-Types on the docks, that's me.
Time permitting, hope to see ya there!
-Stef
Have a great time on the trip!
I’m intrigued: why all the shuffling at the beginning of the trip?
John
So people can get a ride on the rarely used "express tracks" between Essex St. and Canal St.
Rarely used and soon to be non-existant.
I imagine that since there are very few restaurants near the dock and even fewer open on Sundays, we should bring sandwiches and snacks with us.
Am I correct or will there be some type of food service available ?
Alan, eat a hearty breakfast or brown bag it as the trip will be a lengthly one. Trust me -- experience on other antique trains leads me to believe it will be a LOOOOOONG day.
BMTman
and remember - there are no bathrooms on the train, so guide your eating/drinking acfordingly.
And no lights or fans when we leave third rail country.
Ohhh and the A/C doesn't work too.
What A/C?
Exactly >tic<
The d-types have a unique a/c system known as a 30-30 system. Open 30 windows and go 30 MPH
Doug, you must be psychic (or is it psychotic), I will probably bring a small cooler with me so that I won't get weak from my condition. Usually when I'm occupied I don't get too weak or hungry for a longer period, but I figured to be doing some "dashboard dining" so hence the cooler.
As far as the restrooms, there's a large body of water called NY Harbor.
See everyone Sunday..........
TO THE D, TO THE D, TO THE DDD, .......
[I imagine that since there are very few restaurants near the dock and even fewer open on Sundays, we should bring sandwiches and snacks with us.
Am I correct or will there be some type of food service available ?]
I’m sure that NYCT will provide us with a complementary feast of a lunch prepared by a five-star chef in the Dining car. The meals will also be served in the parlor car and in the rear observation car. Patrons will also be entertained by white men and Indians outside of the train as they fight for land—to park their taxis. However, we won’t have to worry about errant projectiles such as bullets and beer cans as long as the windows have FRA Type II glazing—which they don’t.
See you all on Sunday. I’ll have a Mets cap and a blue waistbag if anyone wants to ID me. I don’t know many of you in person (even though I’ve been posting here for over 2 years), so come and find me.
-Dan
New York Area Railroads (www.trainweb.org/nyrail)
Is it safe to say that if you are going to meet the train at the car float that I can catch it at 12PM? Earlier, later? What time then? What street are the tracks that the train will be traveling on street level? And to get to the area, R to 53rd and walk to 1st and 50th or wherever the tracks are?
The information I gave approx. 24 hours ago came from a posted General Order. I hope that there aren't any other GO's which may conflict with this itenerary which was decided upon many months ago because the dock visit and Chambers St. starting point was on the trip notice. I say this because I am a bit concerned about a service notice I quickly passed by at DeKalb Ave. but couldn't read the whole thing. Is the switch entering DeKalb Ave. which accesses the tunnel tracks out of service this weekend? Aren't the Manhattan bound N trains going over the MannyB this weekend? Or is it just on the midnite? If it is, then no problem with the trip. If not, then the train will have to take a long detour via the Chrystie connection, the F line then back up the W line just to get to 38th St. yard. You'll find out soon enough!
Hey, more fun that way.
If I remember correctly, it is for the whole weekend. Looks like you will have to make that detour.
The only problem would be in getting the train to Nassau st from the south. The final destination may have to be changed to someplace other than Chambers st. To get to Chambers to pick up: the train is moved via the Manny B, B'wy to G4 behind the wall, reverse and down 6th to Chrystie, reverse on Willy B.
STORY about track workers and the crap they put up with.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd really have to consider the source (Ray Sanchez). The track worker job is a dirty one and a dangerous one. There is no denying that. However, some of the statements in the article fly in the face of reality.
WATER: Available drinking water is mandated by TA safety rules as well as state and federal labor laws.
AC In locker rooms: I don't know if this is required by state & local law. It seems to me that the TWU should, however and if it is required, it's a no-brainer. If it's not required, it's still available. When the AC in my employee's lunchroom went bad last month, I was told by in-house HVAC people that I could not get immediate service. After waiting a week, I went out and bought a new one for them. Most operating TA managers have procurement cards for such emergencies.
As for respect, well golly-gee. Welcome to the club. Highway construction workers are cursed out for the traffic jams they create. Cops are cursed at. I've personnally seen firemen insulted by a cab driver for blocking a street while fighting a fire. When I was an RCI, I was insulted on more than one occasion by passengers when I took a train out of service and once by a motorman when I didn't. It all goes with the job. As for the suicide thing, I have seen nothing internally or externally to verify that part of the story. Even the TWU's own newspaper never mentioned the suicide issue. Again, I don't know all of the legalities involved but this wouldn't be the first time Ray Sanchez has printed unchecked 'facts'.
BTW: I used the term "dangerous" in the beginning of my post. I want to make the distinction between dangerous and"un-safe". Almost every operating job in the TA has some danger. We deal with equipment weighing hundreds of tons, moving in confined spaces and 40 to 50 MPH. We deal with high voltage while standing in water. We walk in the dark, surrounded by danger. The difference is as professionals, we make the job safe. It is dangerous but not un-safe because of the precautions we are supposed to take. "Supposed" being the operative word. Next time you pass a work gang on the tracks, pay attention to how many are drinking soda instead of bracing themselves. See how many are talking instead of holding their flashlights. Is there a T/O on this sight that can tell me that they've never passed a worksight where where the lamps were not improperly set out. WHen people get injured or killed, there is virtually always some human error involved. After investigating employee accidents for over 17 years, I can say this without fear of contradiction. Dangerous does not make it un-safe.
Whenever I see track gangs, I always see the orange, blinking warning lamps beforehand, usually set upon the shelf on the side of the tunnel. The workers always waive their flashlights as we pass. The T/O always blows the horn and proceeds very slowly till his train clears the worksite.
One late night on the Corona Line just before Hunters Point Av., a track worker casually crossed the tracks in front of the train as we approached, horn sounding. The T/O stopped the train in the tunnel, grabbed up his brake handle and reverse key, got out of the cab, took his door-key, opened one door of the head motor and proceeded to chew-out the track worker and threaten to tell on him. I didn't know T/Os had any authority over the track gangs, but I thought it unusual that the T/O would go out of his way to yell at the guy, especially when there was a train full of tired passengers trying to get home.
One for the you-don't-see-that-every-day file.
I don't think that Train crews have any authority over track gangs.
As for the T/O chewing the track worker out, I would imagine that he was reacting to the fact that he might have (worst case scenario) hit the guy and run him over. The mere thought of it would shake anyone up (espeically a T/O).
If that is all the track worker got - then he got off lucky - very lucky - after all he might have wound up injured or dead.
The T/O should have reported it over the radio to Control Center.
There is very little room for mistakes in a tunnel or on an elevated structure.
The T/O should have reported it over the radio to Control Center.
As I recall, he told the track guy, "I have to tell control. I have to tell control." Didn't hear him do so on the radio thru the cab-door doing this, though.
The fact that you see orange lamps does not mean that the jobsite is lamped according to the rulebook. From what I see, the trackworkers often flag a site incorrectly and I'll bet every T/O on subtalk will bear that out. As to your other point, you prove my point. Does it sound like a person who would casually walk across tracks in a dark tunnel, in front of a moving train, is too concerned about safety? While the train operator has no authority over a track worker, he was well within his rights to be angry and should have banged it in to 'control center'. Somewhere there was a supervisor who was responsible for maintaining the safety of the worksite and he wasn't doing his job. That same casual attitude towards safety is why you read about trackworkers being killed on the job.
I've been at the window, rounding a sharp corner, and seen nothing but the red rear-lantern light. No yellow lamps. The T/O dropped his window down and chewed the workers out, rightly so.
You are right on the mark. Following a recently completed 26 month stint on the all underground E line, two observations can be made: #1: how I didn't kill at least one man on the tracks and #2: that it's a miracle that there aren't many more incidents similar to what befell Mr. McPhaul. How many times did I have to shut off the controller and simultaneously grab a hard brake because yellow flags were not set up far enough from the workers based on the speed I was going, grade, or even the slightest curve. How many times workers were on an adjacent track and while they were "clearing up" came into my path causing me to take evasive action. I can go on and on and on.
Where is the safety issue where a man trips and gets killed? Should he walk the tunnel with his head down watching every step only to be hit by a train, of course not. I see track workers will never get your respect. I have seen people do some stupid things like walk in front of trains and T/O fall asleep between station stops, blow the red lamp and tripper almost killing 8 track workers. No job is perfect but every one has to watch out for the person who is not doing his/her job from the flag man to the train operator. Don't knock the job till you have worked the job.
I saw a T/O on the N a few weeks back close his eyes between stations. He had the cab door open but I dunno if he was actually sleeping.
We don't sleep We just rest our eyes
For one thing, track workers are not the only people who walk the tracks.
For another, I did work a job (and still do) that required me to walk tunnels and structures and I do it without flagging protection. I've been walking the tunnels in the performance of my duties for over two decades.
Finally, where did I say i don't respect track workers? I respect all hourly employees. I made several points and none of them suggested I had no respect for the trackworkers. I said that:
Track workers are adequately paid and if not, they were free to leave - as all transit workers are.
Most TA jobs are dangerous but if one follows the safety rules, the jobs are not unsafe.
Virtually all accidents are due to human error.
Now, where does any of that suggest that I have no respect for track workers?
I was supposed to avoid commenting on postings by Drain Tude, but this is a must. I know Drain Tude has me on killfile, so I can be as rude as I like:
It has been argued for years in Britain that if a train driver (engineer) passes a signal at danger (SPAD), it was his fault, because he wasn't properly carrying out his duties, resulting in a dangerous situation. In America, a technological solution was found, starting from the early 1930s. It's called automatic train protection -- otherwise known as trip-stops. In Britain, they have only recently began to realize that SPADs can be prevented, and must be managed. Such an important issue cannot simply be 'left to the driver'. Only after Human error killed 30 people at Paddington, did we see a little action.
Human error is something which must be managed. In the aeronautics industry, many failure-redundant systems are built in to prevent the possibility of human error and cross-check the actions of the pilots. Of course, planes still crash due to human error, but a lot less now than in the days of propeller aircrafts. In the same way that we stop passengers from getting killed by "human error", if we can afford the additional cost, we must also try to stop track workers from being killed by "human errors". It isn't just their own lives they are endangering.
This is not a question of respect, this is a question of management philosophy. From Drain Tude's attitude towards the "human error" problem, we know roughly where in the corporate tree he belongs.
Lexcie
lexcie, perhaps yopu ought to read more carefully. I've said many times that I do not use a killfile. As for your comment about where I belong in the corporate tree, can you be more specific? After investigating employee injuries for over 17 years, I have yet to find a single instance that has not involved, in some way, a component of human error. Do you challange that statement? We already know where in the corporate tree I actually sit. In what tree do you sit? Tell us all about your vast experience in the field of accident investigation.
The last guy that died was a construction flagman with years of exprerience. I was just told that the investigation revealed he touched the third rail with his hand. A construction flaggers job involves using lamps to protect the other workers from trains.
I have no idea how you protect people from this type of acciedent other than not running the subways 24/7.
>>I have no idea how you protect people from this type of acciedent other than not running the subways 24/7.<<
A flagman's job is to protect other workers from oncoming trains, just like you said. Theoretically, when he's there, he has a red lamp and a stop-arm that will prevent trains from accessing the work site. And depending on the situation, there may be various amounts of lamps leading up to the flagman. Sometimes, there's even a worker who walks ahead of the train, directing it through the worksite (called a pilot I believe). Rarely will someone die under the protection of a flagger. Unless the flagger or T/O screws up, there are measures for protecting them.
The last guy that died was a construction flagman with years of exprerience. I was just told that the investigation revealed he touched the third rail with his hand. A construction flaggers job involves using lamps to protect the other workers from trains.
I have no idea how you protect people from this type of acciedent other than not running the subways 24/7.
The moral of the story is that some accidents and deaths are bound to happen. Safety measures will minimize but not eliminate them. Subway work involves a degree of danger that can never been taken away completely.
>>For another, I did work a job (and still do) that required me to walk tunnels and structures and I do it without flagging protection. I've been walking the tunnels in the performance of my duties for over two decades.<<
You missed contact Rail's whole point. Do you walk the tracks regularly? Once a week? Once every 2 weeks? If you don't walk that often, you don't really don't work the job he's referring to.
One skill I have is the ability to read & comprehend, hence, I don't need anyone to explain what someone else wrote - except when I ask for that help. I understood his point of view perfectly. As an RCI, I walked the mainline tracks daily to reach disabled trains (in a time when there were many disabled trains) I walked the tracks daily to do pre-service inspection. As a supervisor, I walked the tracks very frequently to check on employees who were supposed to be performing those same tasks.
Contactrail asked a very stupid question in an attempt to be a smartass. "Should he walk the tunnel with his head down watching every step only to be hit by a train, of course not." The obvious answer is that you take whatever steps are necessary to insure that you go home at the end of the day. It does not mean walking on an active track without taking precautions against moving trains. It does not mean you walk at normal speed where you are unsure of your footing.
Now, I stand by my original point, that being in 17 years of investigating employee accidents, I have not seen an instance where some measure of human error did not contribute to that accident. Are you prepared to refute that argument?
I'm by no way claim to know anyting about Construction Flagging but on a head end ride southbound Montague tunnel a few years ago we came up to a flashing yellow light that was at an angle. I saw it but the T/O futher over to the right didn't. We stopped **HEAVY AND HARD** with an "Oh Sh*t" from the little room to my right. I can say that light was not placed properly nor the required second set in site as we come up on the first set of lights. Boy did he sound that horn LONG AND HARD, did it a second time just as we passed the crew too >G<.
I've been on a Queens-bound 7 where the track workers flagged down the train in the middle of the tunnel to stop. They spoke to the T/O who opened the front door and let them in off the tracks temporarily depriving me of the window. They got off at Vernon-Jackson. Never saw that before.
"I've been on a Queens-bound 7 where the track workers flagged down the train in the middle of the tunnel to stop. They spoke to the T/O who opened the front door and let them in off the tracks temporarily depriving me of the window."
While I've never seen them enter or exit by the front door, it's pretty common to see CTA trains stop between stations and pick up or drop off track workers. Not squads of them, mind, strictly one or two.
I see that a lot too on the N between CI and 86th street. Most of the time though, it's to drop off one worker. I've only seen a pick up once, and it was only one person.
Thats Why they Call'em "Work Bums"
ON the subject of safety of trackworkers,
1) Does the TA issue GOs indicating where they are working?
2) Do trackworkers have to be qualified on the operating rules?
I work in Washington, DC and occasionally listen on my scanner to railroad and subway operations. I hear Washington subway control tell train operators that "track personnel are working on track 1 at Tenleytown. No need to slow down but when you see them, dim your lights and sound your horn."
Does the command center or tower call trains approaching work areas?
Michael
G.O.s are only issued when there is a change to scheduled service. A good number of trackwork is done without G.O.s
All employees are trained in safety. There are courses in track safety that all employees working on or near tracks must take. Employees also have daily safety meetings.
What does GO mean? Not only what it stands for (which i *think* i know) but what does it mean?
GO General Order, a reroute or change of procedure.
I'm surprised they don't mention the thick layer of dirt that coats everything down there. put something down for a minute, and you'll have to wash it 3 times to get the grime off.
you'd think with the heat they'd have some water jugs down there. the FD has a little truck that pops on by fires with water, gatoraid and stuff (plus the salvation army rig that'll pop by - heh! they have variety!)
top it off with rather shitty pay, and no, it doesn't sound like a pleasant job...
graffiti artists refer to them as 'work bums'.
"top it off with rather shitty pay,"
As long as you brought it up, what does a track worker earn. What do you consider 'shitty' pay?
according to the article it's 40-45k.
if that's true, it's not bad money, but it's a job in a dirty, dangerous environment, apparently without much respect or acknowledgement of importance. You can get the same money sitting in a clean office doing not a whole lot. Thus it wouldn't be high on my career list...
I don't want to get into class warfare here but I do take issue with what you are saying. In your first posting, you wrote that the pay was shitty. Now you acknowledge that it's 40-45K. Actually, with night differential and a modest amount of overtime, it's well over 50K. Add to that the 20-25 vacation days per year, 12 holidays with pay per year and 12 sick days per year. That ain't to shitty any more. Now I agree that it's a dirty job and has some danger but now tell me what jobs in the private sector pay the same money for office work and do not have an education requirement.
Being a trackworker is not equivalent to involuntary servitude. If any of these workers could get a clean, safe office job with the same benifits and the same salary, "there ain't no gun to nobody's head making nobody stay". There are very few who remain in that job out of loyalty or civic duty.
"Being a trackworker is not equivalent to involuntary servitude. If any of these workers could get a clean, safe office job with the same benifits and the same salary, 'there ain't no gun to nobody's head making nobody stay'. There are very few who remain in that job out of loyalty or civic duty."
That's why the average passenger (excluding those who are running late) should give track gangs kudos. Because without them, we'd be back to the bad old days of signal problems and daily train derailments.
Is that what they mean by "starting from the ground up"?
(Sorry - I just could not stop myself).
heh - i'm not looking for no kinda class warfare here at all. i come from extremely working class roots...
see... they don't mention the overtime, vacation days, etc. in the article. and i'd also venture a guess that it is a pretty damn secure job, unless you do something dumb, correct?
I wonder what promotions are like (how often, how far up yee might go, etc).
I just think it's a bit low - it's not that 40-45 isn't good, especially w/o a college degree, etc - but it IS a dangerous gig, thus you'd think it'd be at least worth 50 w/o overtime. I don't think you could pay be 100k a year to hang out around live third rails 40-50 hours a week, sometimes in hot dirty tunnels no less. (i shoulda better phrased it - 'shitty money considering the working conditions')
unfortunately though, society doesn't pay folks according to how dangerous their job is.
oh shit Joe, keep your mouth closed, You and I very well know that you (and me) hang around dirty tunnels and live third rails anyways, These guys are getting paid for it, you should see the waiting lists for jobs at the MTA, people want IN, and BAD, bad enough to take courses to pass the exams and just get on the lengthly list. They shain't be a complain, but ofcourse the urination and cursing at them is very wrong.
Ah come on... I think the tunnels are a fab place to visit, but i sure as hell wouldn't want to work there. It's farkin' hot as 80s this time o' year. Call me a lame bastard, but i like sitting at a desk all day and calling random, stupid meetings in the conference room so i can get free food catered in.
If it's "hot as 80s" perhaps you need Red Bull (energy drink).
If you've seen the commercial you know what I'm talkin about. :-0
red bull = scary stuff.
you caught me stealing the line from there. funny stuff.
Yea but is it Rastamon style.
If your a Track Worker you can take a Promotion to be 1. Track Foreman 2. If still promotional Train Operator. There may be others I just can't think of them.
Track Worker is also a Promotion for Some people. If your a Cleaner, Station Agent or Conductor you can take T/W as a Promotion.
I took the last Track Worker Exam and scored a 74 on it. My list No. is 9000. I don't think I will get called for the job and even if they do I wouldn't go for it anyway.
The pay isn't bad, and the respect isn't bad either. I don't know anyone who is embarrassed to say they are a hardhat. Few people who didn't attend college get that much respect today.
Track worker is an old time, unionized muscle and handskill job that used to be quite common, with 750,000 blue collar manufacturing workers in NYC alone. Back then, people argued that such work was dehumanizing, danegerous, and mind-sapping because of the routine. I remember seeing a film in school about how bad industrial work was. A union official was asked what could be done to make it better. He said nothing, the work was worthless, all you could do is allow more and more time off so the poor drones could find value elsewhere in their lives.
Then industrial jobs started disappearing. NOW you have activists saying that unionized, industrial jobs with a promotion ladder, benefits and security WAS PROUD WORK. Yes, those were the good old days, unlike the insecure, worthless, service sector McJobs in today's service workers. How horrible that working men and women are stuck cleaning bedpans in hospitals and flipping burgers, rather than working actually making something real.
I guess the idea that blue collar jobs are bad hasn't died out. Among those that still have them.
...reminds me of my yound days of heavy road & building construction ........
Just looked out the window and there is a barge with about 30
cars sailing down the Hudson past Ellis Island/Statue of Liberty.
Where did they come from?
MMMMMMMMMMMM SHIAT!@# I have to take a trip there tomorrow morn, they are loading the redbirds from 207st yard!
redbirds or r142. which do you like. mine is r142 class
You are not going to let this subject rest - are you?
Given a choice I still say - LoVs.
So there!!
They're going to beat this to death.
-Stef
If we don't beat them first.
40 Slant if you ask me.
I would say the R-137.
the garbage train
the vacuum train thats cool
I would say the Track Geometry Car.
Railfan Pete.
hey stef any new r142 deliverys
6676-6680 were delivered to the Barn tonight.....
-Stef
6700s would soon be here. I would guess those cars will go over to the 5 line.
Another train has entered service: R-142s 6641-45 and 6651-55, which are running the week of 8/20.
6351-55 and 6661-65 are currently doing road simulations.
-Stef
its only a matter of time before the 2 is all r142ed up
Yes, but why are they mixing the cars up like that? They're not in order.
It doesn't really matter to them what order the cars are in, as long as they can run together. Besides, cars will be taken off the road on occassion for servicing and they would have to be mixed up.
-Stef
6721 would maybe start the five off
any word on 6398 or 7477 ?
Don't know for sure, but 7477 might be here....
-Stef
6398 is already here. The R-16 is resurrected from the dead!
-Stef
6398 has been here since last year right
hey stef what up with 6391-6400 heard its comin back from 207st along with others. whats up
R142man
r142man2@hotmail.com
How about 6321, whose troubled life was written about in the Times?
Even 6321 has a new lease on life.....
-Stef
I agree 100 percent.
I may be alone in this, but I sort of think there is a pleasing redbird-ness about the R142s. Something about the shape, the flat sides, and the colored front and rear. It seems as if maybe whoever designed the 142s had the old style cars in mind.
Anyway, my own favorite IRT (well, "A Division") cars are the R62A's.
:-) Andrew
it is tried to save the look maybe
i love the r142s been on it 13 times and still going back for more
I ride a R142A on the #6 almost 2x a day (to and from work).
The newness has worn off.
i still love them still i do the #2 and #6 and of Coarse because the six is about 95% r142a
Redbirds. but I'm starting to accept at least the R-142's on the 2 line.The redbirds over here on Dyre are really rusting some you can put your fist through them.
Yeah, you guys are right, I saw an old R-26/R-28 set on the 5 at Atlantic Ave. The R-33's on the 4 don't look as bad as these ones do.
Not for me it hasn't, even when I do ride them more than once per day!
I use to be a Big Redbird fan. Everywhere I went I always waited for the Redbird so I always had a front window to look out. My favorite Redbird is an R36.
Now as a Conductor I like my R62A's
Heretic! :)
Period.
No Contest
R142's
For me it is split between the A and B divisions:
A/the R33/R36 and the R142A(the R142's are to plain looking interior wise)
B/R-10's to R42's(just plain ol despise the hippos)
Hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds. 'Nuff said.
Chances are I will be able to experience the R-142s for the first time in October.
How could you make a judgement against the R-142s if you haven't ridden them?
A while back someone asked how passengers were going to access the northbound J/M/Z platform at Canal Street once the work on connecting the south end of the southbound express track begins. While walking through the station last week I noticed that a passage has been opened from the northbound J/M/Z platform down to each of the bridge platforms, each of these passages linking to the adjacent passage from the southbound J/M/Z platform to the bridge platform. Thus, two underpasses have been created. Problem solved.
when is this work to start? is the plan to abandon an island platform (& 2 trackways) at both bowery and canal, turning the old southbound exp track into the northbound lcoal?
They will use the two tracks on the current "To Broad Street" Platforms at Canal and Bowery. At essex they'll use the island platform with the center track from trains to Jaamica abnd the wall platform for trains to Broad St. At Essex, the "local" track" will remain but be unused.
Those passageways are not new, but they were closed for a few years. They reopened right around July 22, as a few posters reported here.
I have the News Journal from Wednesday with the front page photo and article on the redbirds' sinking. I don't yet have a scanner so if anyone wants copies of the article send me a SASE. shoot me an email and i'll give you the address.
Do they have a web site?
they do if you go to www.delawareonline.com, but they only have the current day's news and want you to pay through the nose to get a hard copy of it. you might try e-mailing the the author of the article the address is sosullivan@delawareonline.com (sean o'sullivan)
The other day I noticed a route punch-box within the 60th Street tube, Queensbound, just before the turnout to the IND. Is it unusual to have a punch-box in the middle of a tunnel? (There is a new punch-box and an "All T/Os must punch" sign in the Lex station too, of course.) Is this in-tunnel punch there in case the punch in the station was a mistake and the T/O needs to correct himself? Probably not -- I would guess its for emergencies, in case one of the routes is blocked, the train can punch and go on the diverging route. What are the rules as far as punching in the tunnel.
This is just in case when the train gets to the signal and either the signal is red or the line-up is incorrect then the T/O can repunch.
(of course they can use the radio to contact Control or the local tower).
With the new punch at Lex, If you don't punch the Signla at the end of the station won't change from red.
Robert
Not that unusal, check out Montague tunnel at the Broad Street split, there is a punch at that home signal as well.
There is also one just south of 138th St/3rd Av on the 6.
There is also one right before Nostrand Junction on the IRT.
There is also one right before Nostrand Junction on the IRT for both express and local.
The one in the tube has been there as long as i can recall. the one on lex has been updated. I think it used to only be punched to go to the queens blvd line.
Right. There used to be a smaller box with ONE button marked "IND." No, wait, there were two. One near the 10-car marker and one farther back along the wall, likely for some kind of shorter consist which used to ply the Broadway BMT. I don't think it was far enough back to be the conductor's punch.
that one further down was, i believe, near the 8 car mark.
You would be surprised how many T/O's punch wrong. It is a new punch at 59/Lex where everybody must punch to have the automatic at the end of the station clear for them. It is the same operation at Court St northbound on the N/R/M. It is up to the tower to monitor the service coming through the tube. If a train comes down from Lex and it is not the type of train they are expecting next, the tower will not establish a line up through the area. Most times the tower will let the train come up to the punch at the 11 St. cut and see what they punch a second time. If the train is still not what the tower is expecting next they will then call over the radio to verify the identity of the train. Unless they recently fixed this, the area where the punch is located at the 11 St. cut (4x) is a notorious dead spot. The tower could not reach a train in that area and had to ask control center to verify the identity of the train. On more than one occasion after a T/O punched the identity of his/her train, it took a call from control center to realize that the T/O had in fact punched incorrectly....TWICE!
Imagine the T/O's surprise when he got to the end of the line and found that he wasn't where he thought he was going to be.
T/O would be surprised alright. From the C/R, the passengers and the supervision. Most instances the train wouldn't make it to the terminal.
Fighting between Republican-controlled Delaware River Port Authority and Democrat-controlled Camden County over riparian rights for the Camden-side footing may delay construction.
Philadelphia Inquirer story
Fighting between Republican-controlled Delaware River Port Authority and Democrat-controlled Camden County over riparian rights for the Camden-side footing may delay construction.
Is there actually any point to building this tramway in the first place? Doesn't PATCO already provide adequate service?
The tram would connect the waterfronts; the PATCO stations are inland about a half mile to a mile.
There is a small ferry presently connecting the waterfronts.
Is there actually any point to building this tramway in the first place?
Probably not.
It's so they can spend all the money they got from jacking up PATCO fares.
I'm not sure about that but I'm still puzzled as to who the tram will actually serve. There are certainly no commuters using the current ferry service, which is merely a tourist and fun-ride type of operation.
Sadly, PATCO actually doesn't serve the Camden waterfront - one must take a NJTransit bus from Broadway (sorry - Walter Rand Transportation Center!). With the Aquarium, Tweeter Center, Campbell's Field, and other things on the waterfront, the only direct way to go, other than the sporadic ferry service, is by auto. I'm not sure the tram will be a viable alternate.
Well I took PATCO to the ball parque a week ago Friday and I had no problem talking the 3 blocks from City Hall station. People need to get my exercise and running from muggers down the streets of Camden would definitly count.
I caught this movie the other day and noticed a scene with Michael Keaton and the Fonz riding a typical graffiti-ed train from the late '70s. It was the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle. However, when they reached their destination, Keaton got off and Winkler and other passengers stayed on. Unless they were railfanning back and forth something's wrong there. :)
I'm gonna have to rent that and check it out
Are any PCCs, particularly #6, going to be kept in Newark for fan trips in the future and, if so, will they be equipped with the necessary cab signalling equipment and be allowed out on charters/fan trips? I guess what I want to know is whether or not I'll be able to book one for a fan trip next summer if any are kept.
-Robert King
The word I got today is that NJT will retain 6, 9 and two others. 9 will be repainted in TCRT colors in its original TCRT number. The other two in mid 70's TNJ, and the last NJT scheme.
It isnt high on the priority list right now to work on the cars, but I can tell you that the operator's desk area was getting mighty crowded already with electronic gear.
Are the E and F trains going to run express between Roosevelt avenue and 21st for the next two weekends? Or is it going to be local with all stops between Roosevelt and 36th?
I don't think the G.O. mentions that. It'd be kinda silly to have E,F, and R trains serving those local stations. Not to mention more opportunity for congestion.
Either way there will be congestion.
The sign implies express.
Last time they did it for one direction, they did separate express and local at 21st.
The time before that, they all went local from 21st to Roosevelt.
I don't think they've ever done a G.O. allowing for trains to run express from Roosevelt to Queensbridge. The reverse, yes.
Both directions were local between 36th and Roosevelt. The red lighted strips were blocking the express tracks for both directions.
Yep, I noticed.
I decided to avoid the whole mess and take the 7 from TS to Roosevelt on the way home.
Two Es and two Fs arrived at Roosevelt before the next R. Couldn't they send one of ém local so we wouldn't have had to wait for so long? They usually do that on weekdays (non rush)...
You can't take the 60th St tunnel from the express track at QP because of work being done so they run local. Having everyone run local lets them stick a TSS at 36st to keep an eye on everyones lineups.
They also dropped a lot of E and R trips. I had a one tripper to 95th last week as a PA R. What heaven!
Express tracks are out of service between 36 St. and Roosevelt. The trains are backing up today! Although it was nice to see 21 St. get some use today. Some crowds of people for the shuttle bus. It is usually quiet.
I rode a R32 N train in search of the R143. I got off at 18th avenue and i was watching 8108. it finally pulled off! it sounds exactly like the R142A! the R142A and R143 are so alike they are like cousins!
They can fly those cars! He was moving pretty fast on the sea beach express. Also there were some W's on the sea beach
ALSO TCG2 GEOMETRY CAR WAS SIGHTED AT COURT STREET.
The R143 and R142A are both made by Kawasaki.
It should be noted, the R142A and R143 has 1 year's difference in technology. The R143 having the upper hand.
I took about 80 pictures today on the Newark City Subway. Check them out at www.nycrail.com, my website.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway>
DID YOU SEE ME!? I was in that PCC car hanging out the back window. I might have waved. It was around 3:00-3:30.
NICE shot, Harry! That would make a GREAT mouse pad image! (Hint, Hint)
BMTman
I was riding the redbirds on the Dyre Avenue line, I noticed the two times that I rode this evening, yellow planks of wood in the T/O cab what are these planks of wood for?
Why ... they're golden slippers! Useful for breaking off erstwhile third rail shoes, chocking a door or whacking a wayward railfan. :)
golden slippers. When you get into a crash, just hit yourself over the head with it 3 times and say "there's no place like home", and before you know it...
Silly rabbit ... that activity is "out of title" ... only TSS' are allowed to perform that maneuver. :)
Or punching your lineup with.
Nah, for that, you use the CANE ... heh.
I was waiting for somebody to say that with the recent story going around. LOL!
Nobody EVER accused ME of being sane. Heh. I actually had to pull handles, leave the cab and key myself OFF to go punch the bastards here and there. I ***WISH*** I had a cane for Dekalb and 47/50th. :)
Traveling along the F line in Brooklyn, there is a small collection of them on top of a neighboring building. Golden slippers, huh? :)
Heh. Dorothy, we ain't on Smith 9th?
Also along the New Lots IRT, there are few of them on top of a building.
Back in the '80s on the LIRR, they used tham as alternate Air Conditioners. The propped the storm doors open with them.
They are supposed to be used to lift the collection shoes off of the third rail in case of problems and something needs to be isolated.
I understand that if the train is bridging a 3rd rail gap, and if the power needs to be removed from one side of the gap, then they use these things to lift the shoes from the rail so that the train will not bridge the gap, then people can work safely in that zone.
If I am incorect in any of my details, then I am sure that someone who really knows will provide the details.
Elias
The shoe slipper is used for the 3rd rail, punchbox, and to beat the crap out of aggravating people on the train.:):):)
For the last reason, aren't they called "attitude adjusters?" :-)
No ... "attitude adjusters" would have caused you to FAIL the whiz test ... that's how us 70's types got through split shift runs. Once the drug tests started, nobody wanted to work those hours. Heh.
In the "bad old days" they were needed to prop open the storm doors on the R42's which seemingly never had proper air conditioning. We also used them to keep closed an end car storm door which wouldn't lock or tended to become unlatched because of vibrations. Practical applications: to get cool air into the cab of an R46; and when a train goes BIE, it is good for the T/O to take a shoe slipper with him to make it easier for an obstruction to be removed.
TRIP COCK ... c'mon ... how often did it need a push?
Every time I dropped my joint in the damned cab! Heh. I'd be toking and PFFFFT ... SHEET! ... drop handle, go open storm door, drop down, give'um a putsch, and voila, we go again, mon ... I read de tarot, you be fronting on Main Street, Flushing. :)
Seriously, didn't last with the system long enough to ever have to use the board, but we got S.H.I.T. (Special High Intensity Training) into why that piece of plywood was our FRIEND ... that and, "the catwalk is you friend" ... ayup.
Let me get this straight from the wealth of knowlege here, the "Yellow wood" is used for:
1) Remove shoe from 3rd rail.
2) Punch route for short T/O's.
3) Punch route for T/O's that stop short but still on the board.
4) Punch route for T/O's that stop long but still on the board.
5) Hold open cab door.
6) Hold open storm door.
7) Hold open window (those pesky sliding ones R44/46).
8) Employee motivation device.
9) Customer "de"motivation device.
10) Prop up foot while operating R46 (R44 cab tooo small).
11) Rule violation enforcement device (run red slap board on head).
Did I miss anything
Foot rest on an R32, raises up your seat on an R40/42 because the seat padding is as old as the cars themselves!
Ok, the following is the EXCITING trip report on todays journey to take my first and last ride on the Oldark Country Superway.
The plan was to catch a bus to catch the 11:59 MNCR train from New Haven to Grand Central. They had just altered the bus timetable and the normally hour layover was cut to 30 minutes. To top it off today's bus was 20 minutes late. While I was waiting I had a panic attack as I HAD to catch that train.
Well the bus came, I caught my train and took up the position at the Railfan Window. At New Haven all station tracks except the one of the far south are now in service (Whoopie!). In the engine pit were a whole bunch of Genesis locos and one pair of F40's so they are still hanging on.
The MCRR trip was uneventful except for we hit a bird. What makes birds so stupid? The dumb thing flew right in front of the train and landed on the rail. It soon realized it's mistake, but it was too late.
I arrived ontime at GCT and met up with pigs. We went doen to the station and caught a 4-bird (LUCKY US!). However, the luck was tainted and Pigs realized we had dropped something. We went back for it (via 5-bird #7005), but alas, it was gone. We then caught a 4-nonbird (BOOOO!) and took it to Fulton St. where, after some fumbling for change, caught a PATH train. Around harrison there were some signal problems and at one point the Conductor had to get out and tie down a trip arm. PATH eventually took us to Oldark where we went down and down until we hit the #7, City Subway station. The place was all decked out with banners and there was a big red carpet on the platform. Everybody and I mean EVERYBODY had a camera or a video camera (or THREE). We quickly caught an NJT painted PCC and took a seat near the front. This was my VERY FIRST time in a PCC and boy was it cool. I loved the windows and how they went up and down. The acceleration was far faster than anything modern and the sounds were to die for.
Ok, we got to the end of the line and got off. Now at this point my camera (my cheepo one) was working fine, but I was trying to work through the 200 ISO film in it as I had a new roll of Kodak 400. We wait for the next train and after about 7 minutes it pulls in. It was the Public Service painted one and we quickly take the back seat as we had seen some railfans taping out of an OPEN BACK WINDOW. Well, our windows were open as well and I quickly begin hanging out, waving to all the railfans who were litterally lining the line (there sure are a lot of us!).
Well, I use up all my film and I go for a quick change to 400. Well I get the new film in and my camera goes on the fritz. I think it may need a new battery. I spend about 1/3 of the ride fighting with my camera and by the time I give up it is time to enter the tunnel. This makes me really depressed. I only have time for one ride and it was REALLY REALLY fun with the rear window and all AND I know that this is the last time the cars will be running and I will never be able to do this again and MY F---ING GOD DAMN CAMERA BROKE DOWN. S---!!!!
Ok, we get back in the NWP (Pigs and I) and the line it too long at McDonanlds (i have had no lunch BTW) so I am forced to break my $20 (needed PATH fare) at a Newsstand. Pigs and I travel then back to 33rd St. via PATH. As we approach Christopher St. the Engineer spots atrack fire and the Conductor gets out with the old fire extinguisher and puts it out. The ambient tunnel air currents quickly carried the cloud of smoke, dust and dry chemicals into the station.
Once at 33rd Pigs went to catch an S train while I caught a W to take me to Times Sq to transfer to an S(huttle) train to GCT. I arrived in GTC about 40 minutes early and I went to the platform for some pictures. My camera actually worked a few more times, but then locked up again.
Ok, I was planning on taking the 5:18 train to New haven. Let me explain a little about the 5:18. The 5:18 is a super express. It makes 5 stops (125th, Stamform, Bridgton, Milford and that S one b4 Millford) and it schedualed to run in 93 minutes, but frequently goees faster (mine came in today in under 90). For comparason, the running time of an ACELA Express in 84 minutes, an ACELA Redional, 91. My train cost $15.25. The ride was SO incredibly fun. I was camped at the RFW and I could hear the Engineer's overspeed (90mph) alarm constantly going off. We came out of New Rochelle on track #3 like a pig on fire and were passing everything in sight. I don't know who said the triangle catenary was limited to 65 as we were going WAY faster than that. If ANYBODY ever wants to make anb RFW video, THIS is the train to pick! At Bridgeton they fent like super wrong railing us and we went over to #4 and stayed there until New Haven. After Bridgeport the Engineer opened his door. For about 10 minutes he was talking to someone on his Cell phone! Is that legal in NY State? After he got off the phone he talked w/ me a bit. he commented on how much the line has improved and how the PowerBall jackpot it 280 million.
FINALLY, the part where my PoS no good camera saves the day. I get off my train and begin to wait for my 7:25 Bus back to Middletown. Well I see an HHP-8 and 2 F40's in the engine pit and so I walk over there. I get off one pic b4 my camera dies and I sit there shaking it and banging on it trying to coax it take a pic of the HHP-8. Well, I hear this window open and this guy is sticking his head out of SS75 (the New Haven interlocking tower). He asks what I am doing and I say "trying to take pictures, my camera broke". A few more sentences are exchanged and the next thing I know I was invited up into the tower. Well it was WAY cool inside and he was very nice. The TW/O was new to the rail world and complained about how lonely the tower got. For technical details please see my following post. Anyway, we talked and I now have a standing invitationto come up and visit SS75 whenever he is in there. And it is all because of my crappy camera that had nearly ruined my day.
Wow MNRR is FAST. I remember riding a M-1 train to White Plains and it seemed faster than the LIRR and the ride was ALOT smoother. Wow 90mph. I think the LIRR MAS is limited to 80mph. Is this because the MNRR New Haven line is powered by overhead wires?
I've been in LIRR trains which have run faster than 80. I know about the MAS but I have been on expresses whivch have reached close to 90...
How do they beat the MAS? Isn't the speed control gonna ring the bell and apply the brakes if the train goes over 80mph? Or is the speed control "cut out"?
Article in today's Chicago Tribune:
Motorist dies in collision with CTA train
-- David
Chicago, IL
HMmmmm..... It is possible that she died before she ran the crossing gates. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
Or feel asleep, or spaced out, or got distracted... Who knows.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Didn't see the bells / lights (how do old people see ANYTHING out of cars?), didn't step on the brake hard enough (I've seen Q tips glide through intersections with brakes on and stop after they've passed it). Didn't realize they were driving, forgot what the bells and lights mean....
Old people -- no, in fact, everybody -- should undergo recertification every two years for driving competence, like railroad engineers. The funny thing about the way politics works is, 15 dying in an Amtrak train wreck was big news, and 1,500 or more dying every year on America's highways (probably with a fair % of deaths a result of driving incompetence) isn't a big news, and isn't something the powers that be are willing to do something about.
Let's continue to ignore the driving competence problem. They're doing that in Washington, so why shouldn't we?
You hit the nail on the head. Too many times there is big news bout a train accident, especially involving a grade crossing incident, but other automobile accidents get barely a mention. Very strange.
Very true. Just turn on Jay Leno everytime there's an Amtrak wreck and watch him milk it for all the laughs he can get. But he's big into cars, and will never mention how many people are killed or maimed on the nighways each year.
-- David
Chicago, IL
97 years old! With apologies to AARP, maybe people shouldn't be allowed to drive after a certain age.
There is no whistle-blowing, not that CTA trains have any air compressors. Probably would not have made a difference in this case.
CTA trains still have horns (sounds like a high-pitched whistle), and the Skokie Swift uses them at grade crossings.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Not in early July they didn't. I rode 3200's both ways - no whistle blowing.
Today I got a tour of SS75 Interlocking Tower and I learned a few things. SS75 had it's old US&S interlocking CTC machine replaced with, you'll never believe this, a single Personal Computer running, bum bum bum, Windows NT. It is the same programme that runs on the BIG MNRR computer. The display is over three screens (well one screen on four monitors) and the Op uses a standard MS optical mouse and this nifty flat keyboard. He also has a direct key in to the entire New Haven line control on a seperate 5th monitor. There is a little yellow screen that tells him what Amtrak is sending, a block phone and a radio. SS75 is linked up via firer optic cables to the main dispatching centre and via phone lines to its remote interlockings. SS75 controls everything from Milford to the eastern Amtrak gateway. FYI there is no backup power supply for SS75. No bateries, generator, no nothing. There might be a 15 min UPC. The old interlocking machine is still there and I heard the Smithsonian wants it. The whole interlocking room looks like a little club house as it has collected a number of sofa's and stuffed chairs. Yes the christmas lights on the outside DO work. I hope to get down there one day and spend some time watching the intricate dance. BYW the most busy time is 8-9 PM as he has to handle 18 train an hour (with attending powerchanges and yarding moves). While I was in the tower I saw TWO ACELA trainsets go by. I was unable to take any pictures as my camera was non-functional.
/*Today I got a tour of SS75 Interlocking Tower and I learned a few things. SS75 had it's old US&S interlocking CTC machine replaced with, you'll never believe this, a single Personal Computer running, bum bum bum, Windows NT.*/
Welcome to the beautiful world of computers, managers, and the evil term "Industry Standard" I bet you $5 the engineers who designed the system DID NOT want it on NT, but had no choice, as some dumb manager *insisted* they use it because "It's industry standard".
At least we know who to blame when we get delayed ;)
Amtrak's ticket machines run OS/2, BTW.
/* It is the same programme that runs on the BIG MNRR computer. The display is over three screens (well one screen on four monitors) and the Op uses a standard MS optical mouse and this nifty flat keyboard.*/
Cute. If i were King Of The World (tm), I would have gone Open VMS. Yes, I'm serious. NOTHING kills a VMS system. They just don't crash.
/*He also has a direct key in to the entire New Haven line control on a seperate 5th monitor.*/
Hmmm, given that it's Windows, does that little paperclip guy get acess too? ;)
/* There is a little yellow screen that tells him what Amtrak is sending*/
And how much it's delayed? *duck*
/* a block phone and a radio. SS75 is linked up via firer optic cables to the main dispatching centre and via phone lines to its remote interlockings. SS75 controls everything from Milford to the eastern Amtrak gateway.*/
Cool. Fiber optic in that environment is a no brainer.
/* FYI there is no backup power supply for SS75. No bateries, generator, no nothing. There might be a 15 min UPC.*/
My guess is the building itself is powered by some sort of redundant system. Or grabs power from the catenary. But the signals themselfs probbably have battery backup, and I bet the system you saw was more of a SCADA (Supervisory Control And Data Aquisition) than a control system. If it dies, the signals still run...
Hell, if it's NT, it might have been running FIX 32...
Gah, I *hate* Fix 32.
/*The old interlocking machine is still there and I heard the Smithsonian wants it. */
Heh, the LIRR's got a few museum pieces too I've heard :)
/*The whole interlocking room looks like a little club house as it has collected a number of sofa's and stuffed chairs. Yes the christmas lights on the outside DO work. I hope to get down there one day and spend some time watching
the intricate dance.*/
Heheh..
/* BYW the most busy time is 8-9 PM as he has to handle 18 train an hour (with attending powerchanges and yarding moves). While I was in the tower I saw TWO ACELA trainsets go by. I was unable to take any pictures as my camera was non-functional. */
Interesting. 18 an hour isn't a lot for a 3 track main anyway. That's only a train every 3 minutes...
My guess is the building itself is powered by some sort of redundant system. Or grabs power from the catenary.
Nope. The guy was explicitly told there was NO backup.
Interesting. 18 an hour isn't a lot for a 3 track main anyway. That's only a train every 3 minutes...
Ok, some Amtrak trains need to have a power change so you have lite engines tying up the track and pulling switch backs to get into the yard. You have both MN and SLE commuter trains tying up platforms (only have 8 of those). You also have MN and SLE needing to get to the yard, this requires more switch back moves. Finally many of the tracks are still under construction.
and the evil term "Industry Standard" I bet you $5 the engineers who designed the system DID NOT want it on NT, but had no choice, as some dumb manager *insisted* they use it because "It's industry standard".
Phil, so what other OS do you propose using for this purpose? Off the top of my head, I can think of a few: DOS, Linux, Solaris. DOS can't do networking for shit, Linux is free and therefore not warrented (nobody to sue when things go wrong) -- in fact, I happen to know there are a few bad bugs in the Linux 2.2 kernel in the IDE controller routines. The reason for this is because Linux was developed along the "generic" IDE controller and for some reason it seems to have some problem with some chipsets. Given the fact that the IDE routine is probably written by 20 different people on 20 different types of hardware, how are we supposed to know which kind of hardware is "safe" with Linux? The bug may have been fixed by now, but how often do you want to go round doing kernel upgrades in the signalling center (which requires a reboot). Now let's talk about Solaris. It's pretty good, but it requires proprietary hardware. So you would want to pay Sun some US$5,000 per workstation instead of the US$1,000 per PC? Don't forget, on top of that, you have to licence the software, and pay a team of specialists to maintain the damn thing. With MS NT, all you need is a bunch of MCSE's -- incompetent as they may be, they are cheaper, just because there is more of them.
The same argument -- cheaper because there are more -- applies in the case of Fairbank-Morse verses EMD. The Trainmeister 2400 was technically superior to the EMD GP-20. Who won?
Lexcie
You forgot a couple! Unix is robust, well developed, well-supported and can handle all the tasks mentioned. Also, fault tolerant systems exist which run mission-critical computers like satellite operations. I forget the name of the OS, but there is one, for example, deployed by Raytheon, among others, which supports applications written in C, C++, FORTRAN as well as more recent languages. It costs $10,000 per server to install, which makes it expensive, but a typical installation can run 10-15 years 24/7 without a crash.
It does have one other drawback: to update the application software, you have to shut down the server completely, do the programming and testing off-line, and then put it back. So you need more hardware back-up. While that procedure may sound commonsense anyway, it is not typical practice in an NT shop...
a typical installation can run 10-15 years 24/7 without a crash.
After about 5 years you'd run into problems with the hard drives reaching their MTBF.
Depends which hardware we're talking about, as well as redundancy. Mirror your drives, or use a properly configured RAID, and you shouldn't have a problem. DoD and satellite operators routinely use such systems.
You still have to takedown the system to replace the bad drives and that is the same effect as a crash.
If you had three systems, each configured with RAID drives, then you can switch control between them and replace drives off-line, well before their MTBF is up. This is called preventative maintenance.
In fact, in those circumstances you would hardly need RAID drives -- you would have it just as an additional safeguard.
Lexcie
Yes, correct. Basically, the system continues running while you replace indiv. components.
No. Nearly all commercial server/storage units are designed for hot swappability. Certainly hardware RAID units will allow that. Nearly all Sun hardware can handle hot-swapped drives and the rebuild will happen in the background without rebooting.
How innovative.
I hate to butt in, but your understanding of MTBF is incorrect, the HDD will not fail, but it has a likelyhood to do so....
Arti
Thank you, Arti.
You're welcome, I was hoping that you'll set him straight :-)
Arti
I was meerly stating that hard drives fail at some point well b4 10-15 years.
Hehe, you said 5 years originally, quoting MTBF as a proof. That's not what MTBF exactly means.
Arti
Well we're probably going way down the wrong road here but Solaris runs on x86 hardware and the base workstation from Sun is at a $999 retail price point now (the Sun Blade 100). Solaris itself is also essentially free- you can download it or pay $75 for the CDs.
My school uses SUN OS on Dell servers.
Actually, they do the same here, but Solaris on intel x86 (I should know, I had an educational copy that cost nothing) is very hardware hungry and hard to maintain unless you really know what you're doing. It's still cheaper to set up an NT system and maintain it compared to a Solaris system even if you use x86 hardware, although that brings the Solaris cost closer to the MS cost.
The biggst reason is probably this. The only thing running on the machine was this train dispatching programme. Contrary to popular belief, Windows (even the DOS windows) does not crash for the hell of it. Programmes causes it to crash. Programmes interacting with other programmes causes it to crash. I am assuming that this Dispatching programme is very well written (it seemed to be). I think you could probably go years without this little NT box ever running into trouble. Don't forget that the box was cheap, the OS was cheap and the OS is easy to use and understand by Joe Blow dispatcher. Remember this isn't some proposal. The system has been up for about 2 years and there have been no problems.
Windows crashes because Microsoft felt it was not cost-effective to rigorously test it in every possible situation. It is not really a good industrial-duty OS.
Microsoft made a sensible engineering decision. It isn't cost-effective either to ultrasonically test every inch of rail every 24 hours. By the same token, you could argue that Santa Fe isn't a good industry-duty railroad.
Who cares if the dispatching system crashes every now and then? Failure redundancy in the relay rooms should revert all signals to red, some delay is caused, but the delay is probably cheaper than testing the OS to every possible situation.
I'm not saying Microsoft made the wrong decision about engineering. I do object to Microsoft's advertising it as industrial-grade when it is not.
I'm not a BG fan, but the OS is not that fragile as the propaganda sais. I've done few projects, and can't say anyone complains.
Arti
I've seen an NT server crash -- an NT mailserver for that matter, because it had run out of space on the hard drive to keep logs. It had crashed so badly that it just won't do anything, simply because it was out of hard drive space to write logfiles to. Now, we rebooted it by using the power switch. It blue screens on start up because it didn't have space to write some startup log files to, apparently. In the end, we did a format c:/q and replaced it with Windows 95.
/*Phil, so what other OS do you propose using for this purpose?*/
I'd start with VMS, then try AIX, maybe OS/2, OS/4000, or HP UX or BSD. VMS systems are famously stable (especially clustered ones), and known for being able to stay running. The others are either IBM OSes or Unix derivatives.
/*Off the top of my head, I can think of a few: DOS, Linux, Solaris. */
DOS is barely an OS, linux is a joke, Solaris might be a possibility.
/*Now let's talk about Solaris. It's pretty good, but it requires proprietary hardware. So you would want to pay Sun some US$5,000 per workstation instead of the US$1,000 per PC?*/
Yeah, but that $5000 sun workstation is going to be a LOT more reliable hardwarewise than that $1000 no name PC.
/*Don't forget, on top of that, you have to licence the software, and pay a team of specialists to maintain the damn thing. With MS NT, all you need is a bunch of MCSE's -- incompetent as they may be, they are cheaper, just because there is more of them. */
MSCE's are cheap because they're useless. When your system breaks at 5 minutes before thew rush, you don't have time to reinstall windows or play task bar tag. Nor do you have time to wait for some pimply CS dropout to fumble around with the system until it works.
I've seen NT systems that have replaced "nonstandard" systems, and every time, it's been a disaster. My local bike shop got migrated to NT by the compan that makesd their inventory control system, and they went from one crash in 10 years to one crash every 10 weeks. My school's email went from "Obsolete" VMS to NT, and has sucked ever since. I've had the NT "experience" when I co-oped at Pratt and Whitney (who still uses IBM mainframes and VMS and all...) and the OS is a joke. It's slow, buggy, annoying, and hung up on everything.
I have clients where NT has been up for years, of course with brand name hardware. As far as apps go Post.Office up for 4 years on a 486 on a Mylex MB.
Arti
The NHRR Yahoo Group has some good pics and video's of the inside of SS75 in it's current state, NT Box and all. You can see them here.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NHRR/files/SS75%2C%20NH/
Be warned you need to subscribe to the group to view the files.
Today I noticed another real disadvantage of Constant Tention catenary over PRR and NH Style 2 (aka "real") catenary. Real catenary can hug a curve. IE the overhead wire curves with the tracks. On CT catenary, the wires try to "square the circle" as it is. This type of lateral catenary movement hardly seems ammeniable to hi-speed train operation. I also do not know why they have switched to a 2 wire system as opposed to the PRR/NH 3 wire system. With a seperate running wire you don't need to bring the whole thing down to replace worn bits.
Actually, it's better than hugging a curve:
1) The zigzag evens out pantograph wear greatly. Modern catenary zigzags, even on straight track.
2) The catenary stays vertical, and thus it's movements are a lot more predicatable (basically up and down, as opposed to the flexing and bending the wires do if they're on an angle)
3) The wires don't move horizontally, as they're constrained that way. They don't sag either, as they're under constant tension.
Old style wires drop down and out on hot days, up and in on cold ones. Plus, the weather affects how they respond to the pantograph pressing against it, so sometimes they twist, othertimes they bend....
This is why rule 1777 Q exists in MN's timetable. Once the wires get replaced, rule 1777Q will cease to exist.
As for a 2 wire Vs 3, my guess is that 3 wire gets kinks in it. And it makes holding a constant tension between the tp and bottom harder because you've got 2 wires at the bottom and one at top. I don't know anyone who uses 2 wires at the bottom, save maybe for a few DC systems, where the current carrying ability is needed.
I'd be curious as to what the alloys used in the new Vs the old wires are, and what the trends in the US and the rest of the world are for catenary. Aluminum would seem ideal on a cost basis, but it's terrible at fatigue and age hardens too. Copper is a slightly better conductor and I don't think age hardens, but is $$$. I think most wires are copper-something or aluminum-something alloys.
Al wire got a bad rap in the 60's and 70's, but in fact is quite safe and useful if used *properly* (And I should know, my house was wired 1/2 Cu 1/2 Al)
Japan has all kinds of weather, they have catenary yet I don't think they have any problems. Well overhead is better for high speeds. I've never been on a train powered on overhead wires, do the lights flicker like on LIRR electric MU's?
The lights flicker only when switching third rail to overhead and vice versa. They also flicker when the engine does a voltage change, as in NJT's MidTown direct and on Amtrak between NYP and New Rochelle.
Sometimes the pantograph will loose contact with the wire for no apparent reason for a few seconds, causing a flicker and a giant shower of sparks outside, but I've only seen this happen with NJT Arrows.
(1) lights flicker in LIRR EMU's and other 3rd rail vehicles because they lack the kind of buffering they have on the overhead vehicles. Because of the heavier duty electrical systems designed to cope with the higher voltage, they also built in better power-interruption protection. This is the reason that the Metroliner's light don't flicker when going over a neutral section, when the engineer is supposed to shut off traction power.
(2) Copper as a catenary conductor is a problem in constant tension territory, because copper tends to extend under tension, resulting in replacement before the metal's life cycle is up. The solution nowadays (I believe) is to have steel core to provide the tensile strength and aluminium outside shell (easy to do in a multicore cable) to provide the conductivity. Faraday's principle states that the current tends to flow around the outside, anyway, which is why you can get away with the not very conductive steel in the middle.
(3) I've posted this stuff about CT vs VT enough times, and nobody listens to me, except Mike who argues anyway just because VT catenary looks good.
Lexcie
Thank you for that informative post, Lexcie.
You know, if I read these kinds of posts enough I may learn a lot about electric power.
Rest assurred I am listening - keep it up!
How do you tell the two types apart when looking at the wires?
John
Copper rusts, and therefore looks green after a while. This explains why PRR wires look green. Aluminium wire looks just grey -- although alloy wires probably also look grey too, so I don't really know how you might tell those apart. The aluminium/steel blend wires would have to be multicore, so you will see the grainy twisted core instead of a smooth wire. The older Al wires might be smooth, but you can make multicore alloy wires too. Anyway, this is something you can only see close-up, and you shouldn't ever be any closer than 3 ft from a 25kV supply line. So, use a zoom lens.
Lexcie
How does AL conduct when the surface is covered with Al2O3?
Good question. I don't know. Anybody else?
Lexcie
At 25kv, the atomically thin layer doesn't present a problem! The votage just "punches through" the layer, and you get conduction. Same with copper. copper oxides don't conduct well either.
Does any metal oxide conduct well? Metals as a class conduct well, so I've heard. Metal oxides, however, aren't metals, are they?
Some ores are metal oxides, are they not?
Some ores are metal oxides, are they not?
I suppose so, but can you extrude an ore?
I don't think any oxides conduct very well. it doesn't matter at these voltages, because anything short of a thick layer of a good insulator will break down. I've seen TV sets at 14kv arc right through vacuum tubes (!), and one problem with older color sets is that if the HV regulation is lost, the voltage climbs enough to arc right through the CRT's neck. This causes localized heating and *poof* end of tube. Though rated to 25Kv, the 1B3 high voltage rectifier tube would be a goner with a grounded part close enough to it to strike an arc through the tube.
And that's glass, which is considered to be a good insulator. Aluminum oxide isn't.
Some metals are good conductors, others are pretty crappy. Your common toaster uses a nickel - chromium alloy with high resistance. Light bulbs are tungsten alloys which obviously have a decent resistance to them. I believe resistances on older trolleys are (cast ?) iron. Steel itself is a pretty lousey conductor.
Aluminum and copper are good conductors, and silver and gold are in there too. Mercury conducts. Copper oxide, BTW, was used as a semiconductor rectifer material ("Dry disk rectifier") long before sillicon or germanium was. Sellenium was too, as any old TV repair guy could tell you :)
I believe sellenium and CuO2 types are still made for limited applications here sillicon hasn't displaced them.
BTW - the modern coin rejector on vending machines is nothing more than a pair of coils that can measure the conductive and magnetic properties (and size) of a coin.
Copper and Aluminum oxides are insulators, however, the typical
film thickness is only a few mils and the breakdown voltage is
well under 100 volts. It doesn't matter for trolley wire and
it certainly doesn't matter for high-tension catenary!
CT dosen't provide much support in the verticle plane while VT does. Lets say your stringing a cable in your back yard and the cable is in the X direction. With VT you tie a knot at one end and then string it along a series of supports along the Y axis, sort of like a suspension bridge. With CT you loop the wire over a pully at each end and tie a weight to it. You then run it along a series of supports in the counterintuitiave X axis with each support being able to move Y direction. The result is less support for the wire (epcially in wind, ice and whatnot) and the necesity of moving parts (always a bad thing).
Hey, I had some real reasons! One is that VT is more sturdy and breaks are easier to isolate and fix.
I know, you said that in the last time (see thread "REAL ARGUMENT" about 2 weeks ago) we had an argument about CT vs VT. I acknowledged some of your real reasons, but I think we are as divided over this issue as over whether Amtrak 'dates' are nice.
Copper as a catenary conductor is a problem in constant tension territory,
Are you sure NEC wires use copper? I know the NEC wires look green, because copper rusts? My home station is Metuchen, and while I sit in the car on the local roads in Iselin and Edison, NJ, I can see those green wires also.
In the frostbite temperatures of winter, the catenary wires here look FROSTED and covered with a thin FILM substance.
1) Is this ICE on the catenary wire?
Response to multiple recipients:
NEC uses 12KV wiring, while the Morristown line, (MidTown Direct), uses 25KV.
NOTE: (To someone who thinks lights flicker)
LIGHTS DO NOT FLICKER DURING A VOLTAGE CHANGE ON THE MIDTOWN DIRECT TRAINS. I've been on one TWICE to/from NY and the LIGHTS DO NOT TURN OFF.
IF ANYONE (esp. Philip) is wiling to see overhead powered trains' lights flicker, try the NORTH JERSEY COAST LINE.
This line (be sure to ride the set of Comet IV cars) has numerous areas of "flickering lights" but they do not turn on right away.
NOTICE: Be sure to ride it all the way to Long Branch! Beyond this station to Bay Head, you can transfer to diesel shuttle trains.
They stay off, the ERL's turn on (the LCD's inside remain on, climate control shuts off), then after around 4-5 seconds, the fluorescents turn back on.
This is it for now...
: )
Railfan Pete.
Are you sure NEC wires use copper? I know the NEC wires look green, because copper rusts?
Yes, it's copper. Just like the statue of Liberty.
Sometimes the pantograph will loose contact with the wire for no apparent reason for a few seconds, causing a flicker and a giant shower of sparks outside, but I've only seen this happen with NJT Arrows.
This happens periodically, but you won't see periodical sparks from the pantograph.
I've experienced this numerous times on the Arrow III trains entering Newark Penn Sta. on track 4. The pantograph shifts its movement, causing the electricity flow to cut off, thus turning on the ERL's
(the incandescent bulbs built into the fluorescent lighting).
After power is drawn from the pantograph, the ERL's shut off and the fluorescents turn on.
NOTICE: that the A/C, heat (climate control system) turns off also.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Sometimes the pantograph will loose contact with the wire for no apparent reason for a few seconds, causing a flicker and a giant shower of sparks outside, but I've only seen this happen with NJT Arrows.
This happens periodically, but you won't see periodical sparks from the pantograph.
I've experienced this numerous times on the Arrow III trains entering Newark Penn Sta. on track 4. The pantograph shifts its movement, causing the electricity flow to cut off, thus turning on the ERL's
(the incandescent bulbs built into the fluorescent lighting).
After power is drawn from the pantograph, the ERL's shut off and the fluorescents turn on.
NOTICE: that the A/C, heat (climate control system) turns off also.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Why are you reposting your messages with no changes whatsoever?
The suspension cables are galvanized steel stranded cables, similar
to what is used to string up telephone cables along poles, back-guy
utility poles, etc. The NH triangular catenary system uses two
of these suspension cables at the top, then 2 hard-drawn copper
grooved solid 4/0 wires at the bottom which are bonded together
with groove clamps. The 3 legs of the triangle are lengths of pipe.
Stranded aluminum cable is used heavily in power distribution.
It is fine as long as the Cu-Al splices are done correctly and
the cable is jacketed and not subject to a corrosive environment.
In Russia, the standard wire has one suspension wire and two contact wires hanging from it via suspenders with a small Y shaped split at the bottom. The 3000VDC systems also frequently have a fourth wire next to the suspender wire for greater current-carrying capacity. Constant tension catenary is used practically everywhere.
Constant-tension catenary has proven over the past 100 years or so to be the best system. Remember that it is the system that emerged over many years of experimantation, and I am sure there are quite a few reasons for it. The reason that there is still VT catenary here is that the wires are original from 1912 on the NH and the 1930's on the PRR.
Real catenary can hug a curve.
This observation is pretty easy to detect. I've ridden on the NEC numerous times between Metuchen and NYP and I know the curves between Metuchen, Metropark, LInden, and Elizabeth, the catenary wires TILT to accomodate the curves there.
I have noticed that the Elizabeth "S" curves tilt to around 50 degrees down. At this point, the regular SET of wires, and resistors CANNOT be found at these poles. It's just FOUR RESISTORS, and FOUR CATENARY WIRES, Nothing Else.
Then after the tracks and wires straighten out at Elizabeth, you'll see the 5 resistors across, the catenary wire through the width of the poles, etc.
On CT catenary, the wires try to "square the circle" as it is.
There is another place where the catenary wires "square the circle" as you call it. Try the Raritan Valley Line.
Now you may think this line is not electrified, which it isn't.
But if you take a look from the Hunter Connection to the twin curving rails, you'll see CATENARY WIRES squaring the curve, and then it ENDS WHEN THE TRACKS STRAIGHTEN OUT TO ROSELLE PARK.
Ride the AMTRAK or NJT train from Newark to Elizabeth, and points south, and be sure to get a window seat on the right side, then you'll notice it.
: )
Railfan Pete.
In saying resistors do you mean insulators?
Hey, be nice to Railfan Pete, he's not an old seasoned hand like the rest of us... heh
Hey, I know the difference.
Unfortunately, the person I ask questions to about trains has not responded to me within the past 4 months. : (
Insulators are found on top of the wiring structure found around the pantograph on top of Arrow III MU trains. (Bob Scheurle corrected me on that one). They look very much like resistors.
I am also on the verge of memorizing a track switch diagram, including the frog, from a very helpful diagram submitted to me BY Bob.
Also, submitted to me by Bob, were some VERY HELPFUL WEBSITES that describe the catenary movements, structure, another helpful diagram on a standard NEC catenary wiring structure, etc.
Trust me, if you ask him virtually ANYTHING about NJT rail service, he'll be able to answer it for you. But he's always busy so you'll have to be lucky to get a response from him.
: )
Railfan Pete.
P.S. Bob Scheurle does NOT work for NJ TRANSIT.
Does anyone know why the N,W, and R trains s/b were such a mess this morning between 7:20 and 8am?
I noticed a camera on the N/W line at Queensboro facing the train on the n/b tracks. What is that camera for?
I'm not sure if this is the correct answer to the camera question, but here I go. I think the camera is hooked up to the tower for monitoring puposes and QoS stuff...
Ahhh. So the tower is watching. Good. Next time I'm pissed off about overcrowding, and delays, I'll know to stick the middle finger hoping someone will see me.
They will see you alright. It is front and center. But try not to take it out on the poor tower operators. They get tied up in delays too. :-)
1) Answers pending to experts because I am not a daily subway rider, ESP not on the N,W, and R lines in the lower Manhattan area.
2) Would that camera be connected to a set of surveillance TV screens to help the conductor view the length of the train? (?)
Railfan Pete.
Go to www.naui.org
I went there, couldn't find any
wayne
There are no redbird pics on www.naui.org! He was just saying that if you want to see redbirds you have to become a SCUBA diver and NAUI is the National Association of Underwater Instructors. They will teach you how to dive to the redbird "wrecks".
Why didn't the Transit Museum never added a R21/22 fleet there? They forgot about them & how come ? Were the R21/22 fleet never attractive thats why they didn't add one there like all the Historical fleet?
My guess is that except for the storm doors on each end, it was almost identical in appearance to the R17 cars. Certainly I’d keep those type storm doors as on R26 #7773 and the R28 car whose road number evades me at this point if I were in the Transit Museum Archives.
Three cars have that storm door. 7773 (both ends), 7821 (#1 end), and I can never remember the third one (#1 end). The windows work on all doors except on the car I can't remember the number for.
& no R 21-22 irt cars either !!
That's basically it, and the motorman's cab door opening at the front end to get the air from the opened window.
They didn't forget them. There is just enough track space in the station for all of the various types of equipment. Some of the cars are kept at the Coney Island yard.
Did they keep any for the museum? I don't think so.
Well, they still have some in work service that could be redone if they really wanted to keep an R-21 or R-22 going. But it will be interesting to see how they handle the current retirements of the married pairs of cars, including the future retirements of the R-32 through R-42s on the 'B' Division -- will they keep a married pair or just a single car with a blind end?
I would think that they keep a single unit because of a lack of space. The R27 or R30 that they have at the Transit Museum is a single unit.
I would think that they would keep an R32, R40, R40M or R42. The R38 is very similiar to the R32, and I don't know if it would make sense to keep it.
Now here's something to think about. Do they restore the cars to the way they have been before the GOH?
The Museum does not have a "Multi" or a "C type", and the only gate cars they have were only partially recreated from a "Q" set!
Is there enough space to keep a sample of everything without interfering with day to day operations on the system itself? the existing platforms at the museum are full now!
Unfortunately, they never saved even one "Multi" or a "C" type.
A gate car wouldn't fit in the tunnel so they have the Q cars that can.
I was thinking if they ever want to run an "R-32 fantrip" after the cars are retired (sometime around 2050, given their construction), they would have to have some sort of married pair to operate, although I suppose they could MU an R-32 with a Slant 40, as silly as that would look chugging down the tracks.
It sounds kind of stupid but if you look at it this way. No, they don't have any R21/22's in restored shape. The only canidates that come close as I can recall are perhaps the signal dolly motors at 207 yd. or the lone impostor that doubles as a cleaners closet in Corona yard or possibly some of the collector cars. It's kind of sad they didn't get their due in the museum considering they comprised a large portion of the fleet at one time. But who was the star in "The Taking of Pelham One, Two, Three?"
Part of the reason that there are no Multi's or Bluebirds, or Hi-V's or C or D types is that transit companies (and by extension, Authorities) don't consider their history. A car when it is no longer useful is scrapped.
In Baltimore, the local MTA has finally realized that the Baltimore Streetcar Museum is the repository for their history. Our collection exists because an executive at the United Railways (A.T. Clark, the Superintendent of Rolling Stock & Shops) began saving examples of car types as the rest of the group was being scrapped as early as 1912. The modern cars in the collection were obtained by the first generation of railfans who became the founders of BSM.
We are the exception among Musuems - our core collection was put aside by the operating company. Everybody else got them from the death of the systems - when the companies that ran them were done with them, they scrapped & sold them.
So just how bad is it? I wonder is there a bus map of Los Angeles and a Metro map? I know L.A. is pretty weird, for instance bad areas of East L.A. such as Boyle Heights are a mile or two away from well to do areas like Monterrey Park.
I imagine the bus and rail routes go through safe areas and then a station or stop away in a bad one. Well anybody in L.A. can fill me in on what it is like, to get around without a car in L.A.
I would most likely not want to visit Los Angeles at all, but I'm just curious.
My impression of it as an outsider with little knowledge is it looks like a pretty segregated, sectionalized City (and County). Please though correct me if I am wrong (which I may be).
Besides not going near Imperial Highway south of LAX after dark, you have good parts and bad parts of L.A., as every city has.
RTD runs frequent bus service, and Santa Monica has a wonderful Blue Bus system, and the Metro Red Line goes to Studio City, but if you plan on traveling to the West San Fernando Valley (Woodland Hills, Tarzana, etc.) or points north and south, you better plan on a car. There are some exceptions, such as the light rail line to Long Beach, but this serves only a finite area.
""RTD runs frequent bus service""???? .........lol!! it hasnt been called ( RTD ) for over 10 years now !!
You didnt know its now called ( MTA ) ?? .......????......!!!!
Besides not going near Imperial Highway south of LAX after dark, you have good parts and bad parts of L.A., as every city has.
Whaaaaattttt?? man that area aint so bad !!!
You should visit ride the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE & see it for yourself !!! ..........lol !!
MTA has service all over the county, the problem is if you are going to the Valley the best way is to take the Red Line to Universal and change to a bus there. Valley busses except along Ventura Blvd run an average 20-60 minutes apart mid day weekday, so you really need a car. Santa Monica Blue Line runs 1 express bus to Downtown, otherwise you have to take a MTA Pico Bus on Bdwy to Rimpau and transfer to the Blue Bus 7. or MTA runs a express bus along Wilshire to take you to Santa Monica or the 33 out to Venice. Check their web site,(LAMTA)
Where possible, grab a Metro Map, and head on out to those railcars! (I've seen only ONE trainset in the Los Angeles area, and they look similar to the Light-Rail cars they use on the NJT's Hudson-Bergen LRT.
Travelers should check alternate routes for traveling I-405, the n/b is PACKED AT ALL TIMES OF DAY. (except maybe the silent hours between 1AM- and 4-5AM.)
We were going to Burbank Glendale Pasadena Airport via I-405, and at 6:30-45AM, the whole n/b was PACKED.
I-10 is also PACKED around AM rush hour.
I have experienced this on our way back from LA to Newark, NJ.
It was quite an experience, palm trees, beaches, etc. Some things cannot be found in NJ or NY.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I used to ride the 405 daily for 3 years. packed at all hours, also the 101. Good luck
This same problem is geting worse in atlanta ( a car parking lot there ) @ & maybe WORSE !!
I used to ride the 405 daily for 3 years. packed at all hours, also the 101
well it is getting to be a MADHOUSE in all of the majior american cities not just LA !! ........LOL !!!
I 405 Worlds longest Parking Lot
yep !!!
You got that right, buddy.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The colors on the buses didn't change, I always call them RTD.
Our transportation system needs some improvement, no doubt about it. One of our few weaknesses as Southern Californians is the mess on the freeways. We have a Blue Line, Green Line and Red Line which imrpove the situation somewhat but we really need a monorail system to link up the Metro Los Angeles area. The Red Line goes to nowhere, and the Long Beach=LA Blue line is great for that section of the county. The green line doesn't even get to LAX, a real bummer. But you can't can't have everything, I guess. And we have just about everything here in sunny, pleasant Southern California, including the beaches, mountains, and some of the most beautiful babes you ever saw.
Again you say no where. Arcadia is nowhere. The Red lines goes to downtown Hollywood and Universal City, just below Universal Studios, and No Hollywood. Runs thru populated areas. serves the largest Community College in the country(LACC). To bad they did not run a light rail along the old SP right away thru No Hollywood-Van Nuys out to Canoga Pk and Chatsworth. except the Nimbys did not want it.It would have followed the route of the old Valley PE Line
Bob: You know as well as I do that if it doesn't go through Arcadia, then it goes nowhere. Arcadia is there, the rest is nowhere.
cough couch choke choke, stage 1 smog alert, the onlyreason anyone would want to go to Arcadia is Santa Anita
Clear as a bell today. Had a nice run and saw the mountains clearly. I think you are stuck in a 1960's time warp.
Nope 2000, when i was there last during a summer
if U just wait the pasadena blue line is going to go thru arcadia !! ( hold your breath ) ......lol !!!!!
Maybe to Freds House
no comment.......lol!
Hey any mystical girls there? I don't think L.A. has much of a Chinatown but the one in San Francisco is really nice.
If I was to travel to Los Angeles or San Francisco it would definately be San Francisco. SF has a better transit system. Los Angeles is a nice place too, but only really if you have a car.
There is a Sort of Chinatown in LA on No Broadway about 1/2 mile North of City Hall and Union Station. But it is more of a tourist area, rather residential like in SF or NYC, Monterey Park about 8 miles East of Downtown is more of a residential/business chinatown but not as crowded and buildings as close together as other cities. On East 1st, Just East of Downtown is Japan Town, more stores and business, and Korea Town, West of Downtown around Western and Olympic. The Asian s in LA are more spread out. Also Little Saigon in Orange County
Monterey Park, California was and is the first city of 50,000 or more to have a majority Chinese-American population. San Fran can't boast that. But it is a middle class Chinese=American community, and there are a lot of Republicans there. Nice town.
I hear they are mostly Taiwanese. I doubt they have any beauties like the one in the East Broadway mall with the jade dragon clip.
I like "Chinatowns" like Chinatown in New York because the people there are transit oriented and not into cars like in Flushing. I gather SF's Chinatown is the same way as NY's. I gather from what few pics I have seen of Monterrey Park it is like a cross between Great Neck and Flushing. And the girls want guys who have cars (booo).
You show me sweet girls with dragon clips and I'll come. :-)
Take my word for it, the Chinese girls we have in the San Gabriel Valley beat the ones in New York's Chinatown all to hell. No comparison whatsoever.
You were too busy looking at the Italian Girls across the street
Now you're talkin!
Show me where the sultry brunettes are and I'm there!
Try a warm sunny day on campus at UCLA
Well I dig those sundresses and they wear 'em year round in LA because the weather is warm. In summer here, they can be quite a distraction from the railfan window, but too many people afraid to "show some skin" in NYC. Do any LA subways have railfan windows though (I think not).
Yes the Red Line has rail fan windows, absolutely a fact
all of the red line "SUBWAY TO NOWHERE" cars are transverse cab equipped
NO RAIL FAN WINDOW !! .........................
all of the red line "SUBWAY TO NOWHERE" cars are transverse cab equipped
NO RAIL FAN WINDOW !! .........................
are you sure, I stood up all they way from Universal to Union Station and saw everything that there was to see, including the mileage post to Union Station
>>> I stood up all they way from Universal to Union Station and saw everything that there was to see, <<<
It is true that although there are transverse cabs, there is a window in the door to the cab, and on the right side of the cab (the T/O is on the left) there are windows in the back of the cab and the front so it is possible to get a rail fan view while seated in the front seats on the right side. The windows are tinted, so the view is less than the best, and the tunnels which are separate tubes, all built on the same contract, are virtually the same throughout the system with only one interlocking where the trains which terminal at Wilshire and Western leave the main line. It makes for a very dull rail fan ride.
On the Blue and Green lines, there are also windows in the cab doors, but the MTA has seen fit to plaster all sorts of notices on the glass, so it is possible to see through but the view is not so great.
Tom
Admit in now !! & no bullshit please ( lol!! )...... U looked thru 2 sets of glasses " transverse cabs"" inc ....!!!
Come on man the red line subway to nowere in lost angeles has NO RAILFAN WINDOW !!! ...............
I was not sure, but I still got a good view, not good for tapeing though.
So get a car or rent one. Southern Cal has it all over Nortern Cal. And if you want to look at the ladies, well then there is no comparison. The golden sun of Southern California makes our girls about the best in the world. If girls aren't your bag, then I guess go to San Fran and freeze your ass off.
You did not say that when you were here, trying to pick up on a couple 20 year old waitresses
Fred,
I'm 100% in agreement, as a livelong New Yorker, I think there are only 3 other cities I could be happy in 1) LA 2) Montreal 3) Chicago.
I've been to both LA and SF, while SF is a nice enough town, it is a SMALL town. I think I would be bored there inside of one month. LA does have everything and real nice weather. I've been there about 7 times (last visit in 1994) but never got to ride any transit, I admit, I always rented a car. I think when I was there in 94 they had just opened a small part of the subway line and were working on the rest
Me I could be happy in San Francisco and maybe Seattle, beside NYC
AMEN !! & I am sooooooo sick & tired of.......... #%$#%^^&$%%**$# ...........driving !!!!!!
True about the babes. In Beverly Center, on La Cienega, I met a amazing gal that took me to The Gate and the Strip and many other places. Will see her again in October when I go back to the SFV (Woodland Hills).
Good deli in Woodland Hills called Jerrys, better ones down the road on Ventura Blvd. Another reason to move back to NYC, Pizza and Deli beside the subway
I used to go to the Deli in Century City, which wasn't bad. There was a Pizza shop right outside it, on Santa Monica, not far from Sepulveda, which stank. Forget pizza in L.A.
There are a couple good places, but very few, there is one in Westwood Village called NY Pizza, the owner is from Brooklyn.
Where is Jerry's? Near Topanga Cyn? Or going more down Ventura toward Encino?
There are 2 Jerrys one out in Woodland Hills past Topanga at the end of Ventura at Mulholland. I think. If not it is at Topanga, the other is in the bowling alley in Studio City by Whitset. Also Sauls on Van Nuys Blvd in the shopping center just south of the Ventura Blvd on the East Side of the strip. Also Brents in Northridge on Parthenia and Corbin. And of course there is Arts the favorite of the Hollywood Crowd on Ventura and Laurel Canyon. Jewish bakery Browns on Victory just east of Coldwater, and Webbys across the street from Arts. I have not lived in the Valley for 7 years, so I may be off. Like Ribs, Try Rosie s for Ribs on Tampa just south of the Northridge Mall in the same mall as Good Guys. I sure am hungry
Yeah but L.A. does have NYC beat when it comes to fast food burger chains. We only have three major ones, Wendy's, McDonald's and Burger King. And I never eat at the last two, their food is awful.
But in L.A. you have two additional chains, In and Out and Carls.JR.
I remember hearing a commercial for Carls JR. on a radio aircheck from out there, man it sure sounded good.
In and Out is great. You can get Karls Junior now at Hardees in the South, also Del Taco in LA is so much better then Taco Bell
>>> Del Taco in LA is so much better then Taco Bell <<<
I tend to put Taco Bell and Der Wienerschnitzel in a class by themselves. The ones I would not go to if they were offering the food for free.
Tom
I went to Arbys in a mall here, and after I ate, I remembered why I have not been in a Arbys in almost 20 years
Der Wienerschnitzel I remember seeing every year in LA. What IS it exactly? Some overgrown brockwurst joint?
>>> Der Wienerschnitzel I remember seeing every year in LA. What IS it exactly? <<<
Wienerschnitzel (they dropped the "Der") is primarily a hot dog chain. They claim to be the nation's largest hot dog chain. It is a long time since I had one of their hot dogs, but I remember them as having a mealy taste, like they were using non-meat fillers. Recently I tried one of their new items, a Bratwurst, which did not make me a fan. I did see on the menu that they now have both the original hot dog and a premium priced all beef hot dog. It is certainly no competition to Pink's. Wienerschnitzel remains on my avoid list.
Tom
The Der Wienerschnitzel is, I believe, incorrect grammatically.
The phrase, if I recall correctly, should be Das Wienerschnitzel.
>>> The phrase, if I recall correctly, should be Das Wienerschnitzel. <<<
An indication that their German was no better than their hot dogs.
Tom
I see they will have nothing on Nathan's. Nathan's has been around since 1916, the time of the BRT....
Pink's looks good, like a old time burger shack of the 1950's.
""Hardees"" ??? ............lol !! ............now thats real JUNK !!!
Hardees has the same Menu as Carls Junior, and is better the Mickey Ds where I live
I still say IHOP is the best out of the lot.
Did you forget we have White Castle? LA doesn't.
We also have Nathan's, Miami Subs....
Nathans died twice in the Valley during the 70s. The other place(sub) I never heard of In and Out Thats what a Hamburger is all about, make mine a double, grill the onion, ketchup and cheese well down please
In and Out I went into once, and went Out twice as fast as I went in. The place is a magnet for kids and teenagers and gang members....I thought things were bad in NYC with the fast food joints.
I always liked waking up and heading to Denny's on Burbank in Woodland Hills.
los angeles is "burger capital" usa !! ........hands down !!..........lol!!!
Can you imagine a Drive In Hamburger stand on the subway in NYC? In NYC people walk and take public transit, LA they drive, even 2 blocks to McDonalds.
yep waste a lot of fuel as high as it is ........lol !!!!!
Carl's Junior can't hold a candle to Fatburger or Harmburger Hamlet - of course those two chains are no longer around.
McDonalds actually serves very good, if predictable food, and if you like that taste, there's no substitute. The quality control is the best of all the chains, on average. If you're on a low-fat diet, a McDonald's burger, if you ask for it without any sauce (oil-based, very fatty) and skip the French fries, is low in fat compared to other chains' burgers. Burger King's grill, assuming they start with lean beef, is good for that too, but hold the mayo.
Hamburger hamlet was not drive thru. Then there is Tommys bring the rolaids
yep !! & antacid big time !!........lol !!
>>> Carl's Junior can't hold a candle to Fatburger or Harmburger Hamlet - of course those two chains are no longer around. <<<
Don't tell all those people that regularly eat at Fatburger that it no longer around. It is going strong. Hamburger Hamlet was always more of a fancy restaurant than a fast food outlet. It was the home of the original $6.00 hamburger when they cost $1.50 everywhere else. Hamburger Hamlet still survives after a Chapter 11 bankruptcy with 14 restaurants in Southern California. The best new gourmet burgers are found at Fuddrucker's. There are two locations in New York State, one in Amherst and one in Westbury. They started in 1980 in San Antonio, Texas, and are good, but expensive.
Tom
Carl's Jr. has, unfortunately, been creeping its way across the country over the past few years, and I believe now owns the Hardee's chain of restaurants, since they both share the same star logo now.
Yes, Carl's purchased a controlling interest in Rocky Mount, North Carolina based Hardee's back in '94 or '95. Hardee's, which was a halfway decent place at one time, had gone downhill considerably in the years prior to Carl's takeover, and has continued to get worse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The "two names-one logo" for Hardee's-Carl's Jr. nowadays think reminds me of when I used to go out to the west coast as a kid and tried to figure out why Hellmann's mayo was Best Foods in California, and Chevron was Standard out there -- same labels and logos, but different names on the brands. Esso-Enco was the same way, but that was by state court order down in Texas.
Hellman was a independent company before it was purchased by Best foods some time back, who is now owned by God knows. Standard/Chevron. Standard in Calif were Company owned stations and Chevron were private Franchise Dealers
Chevron was Standard Oil of California, one of the companies from the 1911 breakup. The Courts ruled that a Standard company could only use the Standard name and/or logo or a derivative thereof (such as the pronounciation of the letter S.O) in its own region. When expanding outside of California, they needed a new name.
Eventually they made them all Chevrons for unity.
You mean Fatburgers survive! Cool!!
Ah, there nothing like a big, fat, full pound burger (or 2 half-pound slabs), still in the grease, french fries (or cheese fries? don't remember if they have that). The original heart attack special.
Thamk you, Old Tom. You made my day...
Of course, now that my doctor put me on a very low fat diet (cholesterol, you know. Runs in the family), I can't eat Fatburgers anymore, but I can still admire them from a distance.
>>> I can't eat Fatburgers anymore, but I can still admire them from a distance. <<<
Don't let the name fool you. As they mention on their web site, their burgers are the leanest around. If you can eat any hamburger you can eat a Fatburger (hold the cheese fries though).
Tom
Wait a minute- you're saying that a Fatburger is a LEANBURGER?
A lamb in wolf's clothing! I bet the grease and wax paper are fake too.
We's been had!
:0)
>>> Wait a minute- you're saying that a Fatburger is a LEANBURGER? <<<
You obviously did not check their web site to see the derivation of their name. "Fat" equates with good, as in the expression "Now we're in Fat City." It comes from the slang of the time the chain was started and has probably cost them some business. I guess even they could see the problems if they named the chain "Bad Burgers."
Tom
No they are greasy & real fat !!! ( fatburger )... in and out is a lot cleaner ......but charlbroiled is best! ( my opinion again )
@ But i still prefer rail cars with a RAIL-FAN-WINDOW-VIEW!! ......Lol!!
No body mentioned Tommys
ahhhhh....yes it was brought up ................... with a suggestion "U" bring along your rolaids !!! ..........lol ........big time !
>>> No body mentioned Tommys <<<
Tommy's has always been a place to see and be seen rather than for the quality of the food. Their chilli sauce has always reminded me of axle grease. Although I still remember a night while I was in college going to Tommy's after a few beers and having two double cheeseburgers, then getting into a discussion with my equally tipsy friends about whose chilli was better, Tommy's or Pink's. We drove to Pink's and had a couple of chilli dogs to compare, and then drove back to Tommy's to try their chilli dogs also. The following day was complete agony from the mixture of beer, two types of chilli, two types of hot dogs, and cheeseburgers.
I still go to Tommy's occasionally, but it is comfort food, more for the memories of youth than the taste of the food.
Tom
How much pepto did you use?
Tommy's has always been a place to see and be seen rather than for the quality of the food. Their chilli sauce has always reminded me of axle grease. Although I still remember a night while I was in college going to Tommy's after a few beers and having two double cheeseburgers, then getting into a discussion with my equally tipsy friends about whose chilli was better, Tommy's or Pink's. We drove to Pink's and had a couple of chilli dogs to compare, and then drove back to Tommy's to try their chilli dogs also. The following day was complete agony from the mixture of beer, two types of chilli, two types of hot dogs, and cheeseburgers.
I still go to Tommy's occasionally, but it is comfort food
Based on your description, discomfort food sounds like a better term!
Yeah but still good burgers. They branched out all over the So Calif Area, but the Original is still the best
& U still taste that greasy stuff a week later !!! ........lol !!!
Hey, Ididn't say they were healthy (though look at Old Tom's postings. He points out that Fatburger's food is quite lean).
Face it, though, fat tastes good. Have you ever had a filet mignon, done medium, wrapped in thick slabs of bacon (not done crispy, as in breakfast), with fresh mashed potatoes and sour cream on the side? Poison for the arteries, but incredibly flavorful and one of the best sensations you could have (short of sex, maybe).
I always say more grease is better for the arteries -
it lines the arteries and makes it slick so the blood flows faster!!!
"Would you like some popcorn with your butter?"
Ah, Fuddruckers!
If you ever venture out to Jersey, there's plenty of them, none of which are very convenient to transit, however.
Paramus, on Rt. 4, east*
Wayne, on Rt. 23, south
Union, on Rt. 22, center
Fairfield, on Rt. 46, east
*This is probably the easiest one to access via transit. NJT bus #171 from GWB terminal.
In and Out, in and out that's what a hamburger is all about!
I sure wish they'ed come to NY there aren't enough good burger places here!
>>> I sure wish they'ed come to NY there <<<
In n' Out is a drive through with extremely limited menu selection. I know of only one store that has inside seating. Since everything is cooked to order, it would probably be too slow for New Yorkers. Their "gimmick" to differentiate themselves from other fast food outlets, is that everything is fresh (they have no freezers), and is cooked only after the customer places his order.
Tom
U must have never been to So' Cal' 2 sea this for Urrrself ! In & out ( a fattening fast food all american Cali' original chain )
@Really now that is not true of this fast food restaurant chain...... they do have a website ! ( I do think i saw it somewhere )
hell i was served a lot faster than Roy Rodgers !! Anyway I am trying to get off of this junk food !!! ...........lol !!!!!!
Oh yes! remember ??........ how bout those kosher dogs at penn station in newark ??? ...........!!.........lol!!!
I sure wish they'ed come to NY there
In n' Out is a drive through with extremely limited menu selection. I know of only one store that has inside seating. Since everything is cooked to order, it would probably be too slow for New Yorkers. Their "gimmick" to differentiate themselves from other fast food outlets, is that everything is fresh (they have no freezers), and is cooked only after the customer places his order.
What New York should get from Los Angeles, fast-food speaking, is Carl's Jr., Jack in the Box, and, most of all, Del Taco.
"What New York should get from Los Angeles, fast-food speaking, is Carl's Jr., Jack in the Box, and, most of all, Del Taco."" ???
When do you want them delivered to nyc ?...... & dont U have chic-fil-A from atlanta there in nyc ??
lol !!!!!!
(There are IS a response to this message.) !!!!!
Jack In The Box used to have a unit in Staten Island years ago.
We used to call it Jack Off in the Box and have a bonna Burger. I like them better then Mickey Ds, had both down the block from me on Hawaii and always went to Jacks
Jack In the Box is in Hawaii...unreal.
When i was in Oahu, all I saw was Mcdonalds, but did see a Burger King on the island of in Hilo (Island of Hawaii)
Well still sounds like a great idea, but I guess for those without a car they will have to eat somewhere outside, or if they're close to In and Out they can eat it at home.
All food cooked fresh, something NYC fast food joints apparently never heard of.
All food cooked fresh, something NYC fast food joints apparently never heard of.
The food in NYC fast food joints indeed is cooked fresh ... several hours before you order it.
>>> I guess for those without a car they will have to eat somewhere outside, <<<
That's not a big problem in Southern California. In 'n Outs have a few picnic tables at the edge of their parking lots under shade. Even the original design of McDonald's had no inside seating with all orders being taken through a window to the outside of the building.
Tom
""""" "In and Out, in and out that's what a hamburger is all about!""""
""I sure wish they'ed come to NY there aren't enough good burger places here!""
note : I hate to brag but we are the @ BURGER CAPITAL here in the los angeles county area !!...........lol!!
If the only claim to fame is being the fast food king of the USA, I'd talk more about the tar pits at La Brea or the TV Center at Beverly and Fairfax, or the farmers market in the back, which has some goodies.
LA ia where Trader Joes got started(Boutique Grocers)Have one about 60 miles away here in Va got to get there soon, running out of trail mix
You are in VA? What made you go from CA to VA?
I lived in Northridge until Jan 17, 1994, then moved to Vegas, then Hawaii, and now in Va, and most likely maybe move back to NYC, but now that i start a new job here in Va, I may stay a while, we will see how it goes
Northridge? 1994?? You just missed that quake, or you got hit by it, one of the two. I remember by friend sending me pics from Porter Ranch with trees downed and power lines uprooted. Scary.
Where in Vegas? Toward Lake Mead or the other side of the Strip?
I lived right on Reseda Blvd, 1 block North of the collapsed building. I was in that quake. My building was destroyed completely, since then rebuilt, The owners were real happy. Insurance and Fema gave them a newer more modern expensive complex.
I guess if Porter Ranch got hit hard, then your area really got a number done do it. Thank God you were OK.
PORTER RANCH IS PART OF NORTHRIDGE, BUT NORTH OF RINALDI IN THE FOOTHILLS, IT WAS CLOSER TO THE EPICENTER. Mostly single dwellings there. I lived in the Valley-Flatlands part, mostly apts, and commercial, and houses . The University just built a 34 million dollar earthquake proof parking structure that October, and guess what. Collapsed 4 stories onto one
I guess that explains why those photos all the tall trees and power lines were downed. What a fright that must have been.
What section of freeway collapsed with the Northridge quake? the 101/5 or 405?
What happened to the trackage in the Valley (CalTrans/Amtrak). I think it was SP back in 1994.
A hamburger ain't the only thing "in and out" is about!
Thanks for the information!! I used to go to Stage Deli in Century City, not like Adleman's in Brooklyn, but good enough for California!
There was another nice (not Kosher) Deli on Sherman Way near Victory in Canoga Park, but damned if I remember the name, even though I am there every year.
The other Jerry's I know is between Coldwater Cyn and Lauel Cyn in Studio City.
Thanks for the info, now I am set this year for L.A.
Al
Good, enjoy as they say at Adelmans
>>> There are 2 Jerrys one out in Woodland Hills past Topanga at the end of Ventura at Mulholland. I think. <<<
There are about 6-7 Jerry's in the Valley, the West Side of Los Angeles, and in Orange County. Unfortunately they found out when they expanded that instead of filling up all of the restaurants, they divided some of their present patrons among the new stores. They had to file a Chapter 11 bankruptcy a while ago. It is now hard to find any sandwich in there under $10.00.
Tom
Well, that's still cheaper than here in NYC.
Not really my Briskit at Adelmans was under 10.00 and so was the one I had at Katz on the Lower East Side. Jerry s tends to put themselves into High Rent Buildings. if you are in the Northridge Mall,they have the Big Apple Deli, sort of NY
Is the Northridge mall the one on Topanga Cyn or is it more east going toward Van Nuys?
Northridge Mall is the largest in the Valley. Tampa from Nordhoff to Plummer 1 Mile West of Cal State Northridge Univ. Completely rebuilt after the quake, also smaller malls just south on Tampa. Mainline Coast Liner (UP) with Amtrak and metro Link, 500 yards south of Mall
I think I know it, there is a Deli on Nordhoff near that mall, isn't it also called fashion center or fashion square?
While she goes shopping, I can watch some CalTrans or the Coast Starlight pass by :)
I was thinking of the mall on Topanga Cyn between Oxnard and Victory.
There are 2 down ON tOPANGA, ONE nORTH OF vICTORY CALLED tOPANGA Mall, the other the Gallaria. Northridge is Fashon Square or Fashion Center, but we always called it the Northridge Mall
Now I got it. What is the mall on Ventura, near the 405?
Sherman Oaks Gallaria
Opps I don t remember the correct name since there are two malls in Sherman Oaks both have the name of Sherman Oaks, the other is 1 1/2 No east on Riverside between Woodman and Hazeltine which is a out door one and older
That's ok, just was curious since I used to get dragged to that one all the time...:)
No doubt about LA having just about everything. As a life long New Yorker, I think about the only places I could live and be happy are
1) LA 2) Montreal 3) Chicago
I've been to LA about 7 times (last visit in 94). I must say I loved the whole area and always had a fantastic time when in LA. When I was there in 94, I think they had a small bit of the Red Line (I think that is the one heavy rail line, yes?) open and were doing a lot of construction on the rest of the line. I have never had the chance to ride any mass transit in LA, I've always rented a car.
And Fred, I did spend over 25 years in the Valley, so I am a Valley Boy
Glad to hear you claim a little of California for yourself. I almost gave up on you. But when you talk of valleys, it is the San Gabriel Valley that counts. The SGV, home to #4 Sea Beach Fred, is the place.
Home to the Smog belt of California also, and it is only a partial Valley, The SFV is a full Valley hills on all 4 sides, Universal and Warner Bros Studios, NBC, CBS Studio(formally Republic) Warner Ranch, Anheiser Bush the Largest Brewery in the World. Gateway to Magic Mountain, all the SGV has is Rose Bowl and Santa Anita. You don t even have Amtrak Service anymore and one rail line, We have Amtrak, 2 Metro Link Lines, and the end of the Red Line. You have to many Nimbys
RTD buses were originally a weak orange color. They changed the livery sometime in the early 1980's to the current scheme, right around the time GM's new RTS buses were introduced (I was among the first riders to get on an RTS on Line 76 (now discontinued), between Beverly Hills and UCLA.
The 76 is now part of the 2 or 3 Sunset line all the way from Downtown to pacific Palisades. The RTD had many color schemes before they got the RTS in 80/81
When I first came to L.A., RTD busses were dark green. Then they became light green and white. Then they adopted a scheme with a yellow top and a darker gold area on the lower half below the front window and the stripe along the bottom). Around 1976, they added black around the windows and more white trim. About 1980, they switched to an all-white scheme with a three-color (orange, red, and gold) stripe. Later on, they switched to a double stripe (yellow and red.) The current scheme has a double yellow stripe with the words "MetroBus" emblazoned across the side.
The Old Green was from the Old MCL and later the old LAMTA, some were painted in the late 60s all white.
""The colors on the buses didn't change, I always call them RTD.""
MY RESPONSE IS ...... ??? rtd ??? ........lol !!!
They changed !! its now white & yellow & called M.T.A. & slower & worse !! .........lol!!!
The joke was that "RTD" stood for "Really terrible drivers"
Los Angeles is over 400 square miles in size. (424 I think). It is huge and more segregated than a lot of places. The distances are partly why.
Mass transit is safe for travel to a lot of places, including many areas which experience a relatively higher crime rate. If I were travelling to East LA (some nice things to see there, actually) I'd just as soon take a bus as drive. In South-Central, you may be better off on a bus than you would be driving.
Above all, understand that there are decent people everywhere, and your ability to avoid problems rests, in part, on your social skills and your comfort level in dealing with people who don't look or sound like you. There are many factors beyond your control, of course, and places you don't want to be at midnight without a very good reason.
I have been everywhere in So. Calif. on buses. Everywhere I've gone, whether Beverly Hills or Compton (I've been to both), whether Wilshire Blvd. or Martin Luther King Blvd., I've been treated with the utmost respect and kindness-and did my best to return same.
What are you interested in seeing? The La Brea Tarpits? Art Museum? Universal Studios? Burbank Studios (a real studio where you can visit a show actually being taped)? The beach?
We once had the largest rail track milage rail system anywhere ( the PE & laRy system ) pccs too !! an awesome system to fall
victim to the right wing politics internal combustion engines & petroleum meganalopy etc. companies !!!
& oh yes by the way did you enjoy the scratchitti window mta buses ?? ......Hope you rode the blue & green lines !! lol !!!!...
The 425 is just the city inself, which is about 1/8 of the entire county. MTA serves most of the county except the Santa Clarita Valley up around Magic Mountain, You can take a Metro Link Santa Clarita Train and transfer to a bus there, but again you really need a car, unless you are staying in the Central LA Area. There is bus service to Knotts Berry Farm and Disneyland )Express) Universal can be reached my Red Line. Warner Bros and NBC also have tours, via 96 bus from LA or Red Line to Universal or No Hollywood and local bus from there, or metro Link to Burbank and Local Bus
oooooohh weeeeeee !! & it does take a lot of time a doin all of that!!... Man this place is spread out WIDE ..........lol !!
But I wouldn't live anywhere else. Southern California is, as I used to tell my students, God's Country.
Cough Cough, the smog, what is shaking the house so much daddy, is that another riot or brush fire up der in dem hills above Arcadia, bang bang another drive by shooting. Hello Senor, do you habla English
Exactly why I'd never live in L.A. It's for some but not for me.
I lived both in NYC and LA and it is comparing apples and oranges. LA is so spread out, NY is cosmopolitan
New York is a great city and a great place to visit. But anyone who thinks Metropolitan New Y ork is a better place to live than Metropolitan Los Angeles has a bunch of loose marbles floating around somewhere.
Well it's for me, and if you haven't the sense to realize what a great place Southern California is, then you're no smarter on this subject that refugee Bob, who never appreciated what he had in this paradise.
Hey the sun is out again. Routine in So. Cal. The beaches look beautiful as usual. The mountains and cooler air beckons, if that be your choice. Look at all those gorgeous young ladies. Wow the nice warm sun but none of that icky sticky humidity. What a wonderful day outside. Is it a picnic?, go play golf, take a round of tennis, go boggie board surfing at the beach? And, if you noticed, we never said if weather permits. Only in Southern California.
I lived in LA and heard Weather Permits plenty of times
& bring back the pe system !!
or close to it, plenty of ex UP/Sf/SP ROW in LA not being used
Don't forget that nice blanket of smog.
Transit in Los Angeles?......lol !! go to the Orange Empire Museum !! & see for UR self'
thats where all of the rolling stock is now that used to be "" TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES ""
there is a link to this on nycsubway.org ( in the museum section )
oh come on man !! .................give me a break guy !! ..............
As I said I don't plan on visiting L.A. anytime soon, I just wonder what transit is like over there. Are the buses as crowded as NYC's?
Somew lines are crowded, esp. the ones going downtown, through the Wilshire corridor, and through South-Central, where some poor people do not own cars.
>>> I just wonder what transit is like over there. Are the buses as crowded as NYC's? <<<
John;
The last time you posted this type of question several months ago, I directed your attention to the LAMTA website where you can download a system map in PDF format. I also suggested that to get a feel for how the system works and how long it takes to get from one place to another, try submitting hypothetical trips to the LAMTA trip planner (on the LAMTA site) to see how long it takes at various times of the day to get around. This will provide more useful information to you than anecdotal responses from individuals on this board.
In general, the buses, blue line and red line are overcrowded at rush hours, and the green line is always under utilized. For the most part, riders are limited to those who do not have a car. Few take public transportation as a matter of choice.
Tom
looks like a pretty segregated, sectionalized City (and County).
Based on the posts I've read here over time, to me it seems that NYC has a lot of segregated neighborhoods. For example, neighborhoods that are all Jewish, all Italian, or all Korean, to name a few. Is this really the case? Correct me if I got the wrong impression.
Just like any other place, ethnic areas. A lot of Brooklyn Areas that are now African-American or West Indian were formally Jewish for years.
It just seems like it's easy to wind up in the wrong neighborhood in L.A. In NYC there's not many bad neighborhoods, and they those that do exist are kinda tucked away. Also I can't think of places in NY where one place is well to do and the next downright dangerous, only less than a mile apart. Maybe it used to be that way in upper Manhattan but I wouldn't consider Harlem that dangerous of an area anymore. Perhaps it's just that I'm used to NYC. Los Angeles is a whole different ballgame.
In Los Angeles, the huge distances involved tends to isolate populations. In NYC, you mix at work, on the subway etc. In LA, it's much harder. It's like having different worlds. It's much more disenfranchising, in my opinion.
By about 2003 or so we will have a new lignt rail system from the sierra madrae section of pasadena all the way to the
Los Angeles Union Station Downtown transfer( to the redline metrolink amtrak trains @(many of them) & other bus systems ).
.....................{ yes we know in nyc you could care less } ....................................!!!!!
Is this a fact? About time
""Is this a fact? About time ""!!!
my answer is { oh yea } !!!!
Now they should run a Orange Line in the Valley. Beginning at No Hollywood at the end of the Red Line, across the Valley thru No Hollywood, Sherman Oaks/Van Nuys/Reseda/Winnetka/Canoga Pk/Chatsworth to connect with Amtrak and MetroLink. The ROW is still there. Also a Yellow line, down the blue line from Downtown/ across Expo Blvd thru Culver City to the Beaches both along SP ROW now owned by the MTA
vermont avenue also gets my vote for a rail system like it once was !!
Congrats...long overdue.
yes that is true & I am on top of this shooting all of the constructions sites.slowly this thing will come to life in 2003 !!!
& of cource be the first to shoot this on video from the union station downtown to sierra madrae in pasadena !!
the community meetings on this is interesting as well ..........
will it go to Arcadia so Fred can finally have his own train?
yep!! ......... how bout that guy !!............lol!!!
Transit in Los Angeles?......lol !! go to the Orange Empire Museum !! & see for UR self'
thats where all of the rolling stock is now that used to be "" TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES ""
there is a link to this on nycsubway.org ( in the museum section )
I'm posing this question because on my daily commute aboard LIRR to Flatbush/Atlantic there are TONS of commuters whose final destination is MetroTech Center. Some go the route of transfering to the N/RR and getting off at Lawerence Street, and walk a few blocks. Others (most) will walk the 1/2 mile down Flatbush to the mall area. The old Myrtle Ave. station -- if I am correct -- is located almost directly across from the MetroTech Center mall. Could it be feasible for MTA/NYCT to re-activate the station? The usage would of course vary greatly since ridership would be almost non-existant on weekends and after working hours. However, this would be an ideal 'rush-hour only' stop for the many commuters who work in the area who and who -- on the whole -- do not live within city limits.
Any thoughts?
BMTman
The money spent on reactivating the station could be used for valuable case studies for the Second Avenue Line:-) Oh no, we only need 1 more! Even though we've been in the talks for 20 years!
The problem is there is just one platform. the southbound platform was demolished when they redid the tracks there ages ago, thus a new one would have to be built. It could be worthwhile, though i wouldn't hold my breath.
It is on the BROADWAY LINE (Please!) not the Sick Avenue Line : )
(Sick Avenue trains never stopped there, for they never went over the bridge when that was a station stop.)
No, trains cannot really stop there, that is now on the interlocking and on the leads to the bridge.
And, there is only the one northbound platform, there is no southbound platform, and relly nop place to put one, which is why it was demolished.
It is a pretty station, it should be cleaned up, but to stop there...
Nah....
Elias
Begs the question...
Do any photos exist of Myrtle Avenue when it was extant? Does anyone here remember it when it was open?
I recall only fleeting glimpses before the artwork was installed in the 70s, forever blocking the view.
The photos would be a nice addition to...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Metro Tech covers quite a bit of ground. While Lawrence is near one edge of it, the West end of DeKalb is just about at another edge.
In addition to having lost one platform to the track reconfiguration in the 1950s, a bit more of the old station area was filled in during the construction of MetroTech.
I saw this on the Yahoo News site, and couldn't believe how wasteful the government is...
As a workman looks on, a New York City subway car disappear into
the Atlantic Ocean after being pushed off a barge 19 miles east of Cape Henlopen, Del., Tuesday, Aug. 21, 2001.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=photos_highlight_fp&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=0&e=6&a=0
N/W Bwy Lines
Well the R142's are replacing these steel MU units (R26 - R33), unless you have been living in California these past few months and didn't know about it.
Go to Ocean City and swim in IRT water!
I have just saved the picture of the "Redbird" being dumped into the water into my computer files.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Thanks!
If you want the photo I can give it to you provided that you have an E-mail address to send it to or go to http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/redbird-reef.html
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Thanks for the pictures.. Can you tell me why these idiots are destroying the enviroment by dumping these precious jewels in the Ocean? That's so much for your response.
N/W Bwy Lines
Unfortunately they didn't think of a better use for dead "Redbirds". If I had my way they could be used for low cost housing or diners etc. Maybe you can think of some of the 101 uses for a dead "Redbird".
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I dunno about low-cost housing. Diners, maybe if the car body was integrated into another building. Now how about a Subway sandwich shop made out of old Redbirds?
Who was it who suggested we put the Redbirds on Governor's Island and use them for homeless shelters.
I would also suggest that the Williamsburg Bridge be moved to Governor's Island, with 4th Avenue extended to meet it. This way all three great New York landmarks can be seen at the same time.
And then Governors Island won't seem so insignificant from the Statue of Liberty.
Striping the cars and using the materials for other purposes is a much better idea compare to dumping the cars in the river which endangers the lives of ocean life.
N/W Bwy
The reefs will actually help the sea life. Are you awake? Haven't you seen this stuff?
It will be interesting when you go to Davy Jones' locker to view the sunken "Redbirds" and you see that some fish made a home in the motorman's cab.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Striping the cars and using the materials for other purposes is a much better idea compare to dumping the cars in the river which endangers the lives of ocean life.
Excuse me but perhaps you've missed the hundreds of posts on this subject but the redbirds will not be dumped into a RIVER. They will be dumped in the ocean - where they will help support ocean life.
I can not believe what I'm reading.. I would have expected a different response - one that was favorable... I have to say... I'm surprised...
Again, are you all saying that you do not care about the environmental impact that will be caused by throwing the train cars in the water?
I'm extremely sad now, and have a total different opinion of people on this board who claim to be train enthusiasts.
N/W Broadway Lines
The cars will NOT have a negative impact on the environment. They will actually encourage more wildlife to grow in the area.
Obviously, you are speaking with less than all the facts. First, every aquatic pollutant has been removed from the cars. The doors, the windows, the signs, even the under-car equipment has been removed. Essentially, all that will be on the ocean floor will be a carbon-steel shell. The sinking of over 1,000 subway cars has been applauded by all but a small minority of environmentalists and redbird fans. They will add to the ecology of the ocean floor - not detract from it. Now, what is your objection.
Striping the cars and using the materials for other purposes is a much better idea compare to dumping the cars in the river which endangers the lives of ocean life.
Excuse me but perhaps you've missed the hundreds of posts on this subject but the redbirds will not be dumped into a RIVER. They will be dumped in the ocean - where they will help support ocean life.
Furthermore, the dumping saves NYCTA millions of dollars, by not having to abate the asbestos.
"Furthermore, the dumping saves NYCTA millions of dollars, by not having to abate the asbestos."
Mr. Glickman, why does everything have to be attach to a dollar figure which completely overlook the negative impact this terrible policy would cause to our (YES our) environment?
N/W Bwy
As a public, tax supported and subsidised agency, the TA is mandated to attach a dollar figure to everything! The TA is very big on budgets today as well. They have to get every last dollar out of discarded subway cars and buses, including the scrap monetary value. Scrapping them would actually cost the TA money because it would cost more to remove the asbestos than they would get for the scrap metal. Furthermore, scientists say that dumping those RedBirds into the ocean does not damage the enviornment. Asbestos is not a problem when wet........With that said, I have already stated on this board that I do not like the idea of these cars being used as underwater reefs because I call it off shore dumping. The salt water would corrode the metal in time and pieces would wash up ashore. But policy is policy!
Water could contact the car for centuries, but nothing gets corroded without air.
It is called Iron OXIDE after all.
Science was always my worst subject. Thanks for the clarification! But I still fell strong about the off shore dumping senario. Like sweeping the floor and sweeping the dirt under the rug.
Then why's the Titanic so damned rusty?
Aren't there underwater plants that produce oxygen?
The Titanic has been underwater for 90 years. It will one day collapse, but that will be in a long time.
By the time the redbirds collapse, it will be locked in sediment.
Actually there is oxygen in the water. The closer to the surface, the more oxygen. This is what sustains all aquatic animal life. The titanic is down alot farther than the redbirds. The water is colder and has less oxygen at those depths. I suspect that the redbirds will corrode somewhat faster than the titanic - their headstart not withstanding.
The other thing about the Atlantic (and specifically about the Titanic which is actually rotting away VERY fast) is that it isn't so much the oxygen that consumes the steel like out here where we breathe, but the metal-eating BACTERIA down yonder ... I'm surprised the K cars are still recognizable since they're not exactly armor plated steel ... same for da boids ... I wasn't kidding when I gave them 10 years or pehaps 20 before they became stains ...
Here is a likely future scenario for the submerged Redbirds:
–Mussels become attached to all surfaces. By November, there are solid mussel communities everywhere on the birds.
–Silt, stirred up by storms, starts to accumulate on horizontal (or nearly horizontal) surfaces, starting to kill the mussels that anchored there
–Sea stars and fish start to inhabit the birds.
–Lobsters follow.
–Years pass, and the mussels grow to be sufficiently large that they are worth harvesting by divers.
–Divers start spearing the local fish. (Blackfish–yum!)
–The overall metal structure of the birds starts to wearken. (Iron is being converted slowly to Fe3O4, and Iron rust does not prevent further corrosion, unlike some other metals. This is probably delayed because the structure is painted inside and out, but it will happen eventually.
–Storms will smash the birds against each other. Weakened structures will collapse against each other, making smaller holes, which means an increased lobster population.
–Eventually, the structure will be some metal–rust plates, with lots of small holes, many of which will be home to a lobster.
In the meantime, the birds will be host to many generations of fish, mussels, sea stars, lobsters.
I believe that the timeframe for this transformation will be about 20 years. Sunken ships last longer because their structure is so much thicker–the steel on the Redbirds is probably 1/8-1/16" thick. I have seen 1/4" plates from ships.
John
It would be interesting to raise a sunken "Redbird" a few years from now to see what is living in it.
#3 West End Jeff, former BMTJeff
Except that would kill whatever is living in it...
One can also go down into the water with scuba gear and see what has made its home in the "Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Exactly, and that is what I intend to do. If you’re interested, I can also help you get there. Job #2 is to teach people how to scuba dive.
John
I may be wrong, but don't lobsters need colder water to thrive & survive? I think the water in Delaware would not be cold enough year round. Isn't that why we hear of Maine lobsters? I think the sea water is colder up there than in Delaware over the course of 12 months.
I haven’t been diving off Delaware, but I have made hundreds of trips off New Jersey, and I have been diving off the Virginia coast and North Carolina (Beaufort/Hatteras).
NJ has lobsters. Virginia has lobsters. I interpolate and assume that Delaware has lobsters.
FWIW: The water only gets really warm when you get out into the Gulf Stream, which is about 15 miles off Cape Hatteras.
John
What will remain of 8660 when it sinks to all time lows? Will stainless steel panelling remain after the LAHT is gone?
I doubt that 8660 is going to sink, they will probably keep it as a museum fleet maybe!
What's unique about 8660?
The interior has some R62 like parts
Interior was given a more thorough GOH than the rest of the 'birds. No straps (grab bars), metal paneling on the cab walls and stainless steel cab doors, stainless steel door frames, area above window replaced with steel panel, ceiling has no grills, just the blowers and A/C. Exterior is 99% corrosion free, number plate is pristine.
I smell a Museum Car to be preserved (I hope).
-Stef
Are you sure the Titanic's rusty? A lot of underwater wildlife plants have grown onto it.
Besides, the Titanic is over 2 1/2 MILES down the surface of the ocean IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ATLANTIC, while the Redbirds will be pretty close to shore with a depth of only 80 feet, allowing access for scuba divers to explore them still.
The pressure taken on by the Titanic is 3 tons per sq. inch. That is NOTHING compared to the pressure allotted to the Redbirds when the remaining of them will sink. The Titanic still being in one piece (technically two pieces) under that enormous amount of pressure is quite an accomplishment for the time back then around 1908 when they first gathered materials to build the ship.
The Hull of the ship is MUCH harder and stronger than that of subway cars, esp the Redbirds. Any corrosion or rust would happen with WATER(by American Pig) continually wasped by air flowing on it.
The Redbird's fate lies on the ocean.
Railfan Pete.
Are you sure the Titanic's rusty? A lot of underwater wildlife plants have grown onto it.
Besides, the Titanic is over 2 1/2 MILES down the surface of the ocean IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ATLANTIC, while the Redbirds will be pretty close to shore with a depth of only 80 feet, allowing access for scuba divers to explore them still.
The pressure taken on by the Titanic is 3 tons per sq. inch. That is NOTHING compared to the pressure allotted to the Redbirds when the remaining of them will sink. The Titanic still being in one piece (technically two pieces) under that enormous amount of pressure is quite an accomplishment for the time back then around 1908 when they first gathered materials to build the ship.
The Hull of the ship is MUCH harder and stronger than that of subway cars, esp the Redbirds. Any corrosion or rust would happen with WATER(by American Pig) continually wasped by air flowing on it.
The Redbird's fate lies on the ocean.
Railfan Pete.
Pete,
Me thinks you may have forgotten one little detail about the Titanic.
When the Titanic sank, she flooded with water. Since there is water on both sides of her hull and bulkheads (in and out) the pressure is equalized, so there is nothing to withstand.
I'm not really sure what your post is about.
The pressure taken on by the Titanic is 3 tons per sq. inch.
That figure may or may not be true, however the reason the Titanic hasn't collasped under that pressure has nothing to do with the strength of the steel. It's because the water fills every nook and cranny (like Thomas English Muffins), therefore the pressure is equalized on both sides of the structure. If that pressure were only exterted on the outside of the hull, then it would collapse.
Picture the Titanic as a jar with no lid on the bottom. If it had a lid, then it would bust to pieces.
The figure IS TRUE. Check any encyclopedia or an expert from PhysLink. But I see your point.
Railfan Pete.
Take a scuba course and learn about equalization! Any air pockets inside the Redbirds would be subject to pressure, but the steel probably can withstand that (for a while). 80' = 3½ atmospheres, give or take, or 45lb/sq in.
As for corrosion, I haven’t seen the Titanic personally. However, I have been to 1000' in a submarine and seen a submerged ferry (Atlantis submarines in Grand Cayman). There is corrosion and, interestingly enough, under pressure, the iron leaches from the steel and forms rusticles. These you can see on the Titanic in the movie when the minisubs approach the bow at the beginning of the film.
John
"With that said, I have already stated on this board that I do not like the idea of these cars being used as underwater reefs because I call it off shore dumping. The salt water would corrode the metal in time and pieces would wash up ashore."
That's my point... It is off shore dumping and should have gotten more protest.
Also, How many subway car dumping would it take before people realize what the danger environment effects are?
N/W
I care about our environment and I don't like it when people fuck it up. However, using old ships, cars, and subway cars for making artifical reefs has been going on for years. The artifical reefs act like real ones in that they provide a home and protection for the ocean life. Also, there are species that LIKE steel for food. I wouldn't worry about the effects of this practice, because all of the metal will eventually be eaten by bacteria and other organisms or corrode away back into the soil as natural minerals already found there.
#3 West End Jeff,
When you were Formerly BMTJeff, did you wear a Tux?
avid
Can anyone tell what that logo below the MTA logo is on the next redbird (the one right next to the one being dropped)?
I thing it is a logo that has to do with the delaware artificial reef
It would probably be a sticker from the Delaware Division of Fish and Wildlife.
Since you are a regular contributor to SubTalk, I can't believe you were not aware of the facts relating to the disposal of the RedBirds.
There's just too many post to read and too little time in the day.. I have a life, you know. Anyway, why are they throwing out these precious pieces of subway history?
N/W Bwy
Oh, please! It is not necessary to keep every single worn out old car for its historic value. I bet that 5 or 10 percent of them will be enough to stock every museum with a few empty feet of track.
Since I was gone for 2 Weeks, I just heard that some of the platforms at the Bowery and Canal street stations are going to be closed,Is this true or false ?
"Since I was gone for 2 Weeks, I just heard that some of the platforms at the Bowery and Canal street stations are going to be closed,Is this true or false "
This is true, also the Centre St. subway will be downsized from 4 tracks to 2. It's underutilized as they claim. Look at the Canal St. (Chambers St. bound)platform. It's has been totally rehabilitated. The north bound side wasn't touched, that side will close. The bustling Bowery station will also become one platform, two tracks. Essex St. will remain the same. Look at the NYCT capital program on their website, it may still be listed.
Now down sizing Chambers St, I can't figur out how they'll accommplish that.
Bill "Newkirk"
I thought they were saving the extra tracks at Chambers Street for a stop on that LRV line through the Lower East Side.
How are the North bound Trains going to stop at Canal street then ?
"How are the North bound Trains going to stop at Canal street then ?"
You know that pedestrian walkway that connects the southbound and northbound platforms is ? They'll break down that wall and swing the northbound track over and connect it to the curently abandoned track on the southbound platform, the track that had it's rail recently removed.
Bill "Newkirk"
OK. What would you do with retired, decrepid old subway cars?
:-) Andrew
I don't know, but what does that have to do with the Redbirds? The R-142's haven't been retired just yet, although some here have expressed their wishes that the TA would stop procrastinating and go ahead with it already.
Buddy, Pal. I take it you haven't read the headlines yet. The government is NOT being wasteful of those Redbirds. Consider the postings in this thread esp. by "#3 West End Jeff".
The government is NOT wasteful throwing these Redbird cars overboard into the Atlantic. For FULL NEWS, visit the NY Times website and see. The NJ Environmental Preservation and Protection Society (of Coral Reefs) have desginated and approved the "Redbirds Overboard" mission to:
1) Make the pre-stainless steel (carbon metal) Redbirds for Artificial Coral Reefs.
2) To provide protection for wildlife in the ocean. The rail cars are GOING TO BE SHELTER FOR THE FISH, and a CITADEL against the SHARKS. It really is.
NOTE: This plan has SAVED the City $3 million against the plan of disposing the Redbirds SIMPLY INTO A LANDFILL.
Which do you like better? Artificial Coral reefs or PLAIN USELESS into those landfills which we are gradually filling up?
The plan is 20 Redbird cars SUNK at a depth of only 80 feet PER WEEK for the next 20 weeks. Which makes a TOTAL OF 400 REDBIRD cars. This is the plan for the time being, (quoted directly from the NYT).
Any additional information needed may be upon your request.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Yes it does! Thanks! By the way, can you give me the link to the New York Times Article? Thanks again, and have a good day.
N/W Broadway Lines
Here's the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/21/nyregion/21CND-REEF.html
The two pictures included with the article will make your heart sink. But it depends on if you want the Redbirds still in the service or not.
Read it carefully!
: )
Railfan Pete.
"The two pictures included with the article will make your heart sink. But it depends on if you want the Redbirds still in the service or not."
Thanks for the article. Anyway, my point isn't about keeping the "redbirds" in service, but the negative environment impact that will be cause by the dumping of these subway cars.
N/W Broadway
THERE wiLL NOT BE ANY NEGITIVE IMPACTS
Unless you consider the belly flop done by each Redbird as it hits the water a negative impact.:-)
LOL
On second thought, maybe jackknife might be a better description based on that recent photo.
Definitely not a cannon ball.
Simply typing in underline does not make a link. You need to do it like this:
(a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/21/nyregion/21CND-REEF.html")http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/21/nyregion/21CND-REEF.html(/a)
Obviously, replace the () with greater than and less than signs.
-Hank
OK. How about this?
I was waiting a long time to make a link like this. I knew the "A href" part but not the /A. Probably some HTML courses might help. I only know basic HTML.
: )
Railfan Pete.
close your tags!!!!!!!
I did. I was making a joke. I would have ended it at the sentence that I started the link as.
Railfan Pete.
Excellent. Almost thought you blew it, then I saw the angle you took.
-Hank :)
"Which do you like better? Artificial Coral reefs or PLAIN USELESS into those landfills which we are gradually filling up?"
i know some old trolley cars were given a land burial. But weren't subway cars recently scrapped for their metal ? Shredding of metal and eventual melting down for recycling.
Remember that brilliant move the US pulled during wartime by selling scrap metal from the Second Ave. "el" to Japan ? Could those bombs, especially the ones that rained down on Pearl Harbor be parts of the Second or Ninth Avenue "el" ? Or maybe the scrap metal we sold them went to building of steam engines or manufacturing rail !
Bill "Newkirk"
It was from the Sixth Avenue El.
I'd find it quite difficult to get steel from an el demolished in 1942 to be used in a bombing in 1941.
Some of the el was closed in 1940, sure, but is that enough time?
Um, Bill, “Artificial Reefs” yes, “Artificial Coral Reefs” no.
The water isn’t warm enough for coral. Fish, mussels, sea stars, lobsters–yes. Coral–no.
I have seen coral on some of the deep wrecks off Cape Hatteras, where you can get to the Gulf Stream. However significant coral formations only start when you get to the Florida Keys.
John
That would have occured BEFORE WWII. I highly doubt we would have been selling scrap steel to our enemies DURING the war. Catch 22 was FICTION, y'know.
-Hank
I got on the 6:14 to Great Neck. When we get out of the tunnel, the train stops behind a disabled train.
After sitting for 20 minutes, we had to go back to Penn Station and sit there another 20 minutes until we could be rerouted to a different track.
Aren't there any track switches in the Sunnyside yard vicinity?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was on the 6:16 to Freeport, right behind you. We made it about halfway through the tunnel and then had to back up into Penn.
They sent us eastbound in the tunnel which is normally used for westbound Amtraks. When we emerged, I was able to see what caused the problem -- the disabled train had broken down across the very first switch east of the tunnels. As a result, both tracks leading from the east bound tunnels were blocked.
I couldn't tell what the problem was, but there were about 2 or 3 track workers looking underneath the third car (and 2 or 3 more who appeared to be sitting around doing nothing -- at least not for the 5 seconds that I was able to witness).
CG
The question then becomes "where the hell was the SW1001 protect set from harold? sounds like it wasn't far from the tower at all. Does it really take long to couple 2 diesels to an MU set and at the very least clear the train up to woodside?
The switch in question is right in front of Harold. The occupants of the protect engine were among those on the tracks investigating.
That day there are normally two engines (102 and 104) but this day only had the 102 there. So for your information they could not use two.
It takes about 20 minutes, but first the onboard train crew will try to fix the problem, usually about 10 minutes before they give help and help is called in.
Well I heard there's more trouble tonight, thunderstorms are causing signal problems on the Pt.Washington branch, at least 20 minute delays. If only LIRR didn't put their signal wires on old electric poles. Some of those poles lean at a 45 degree angle.
Why doesn't LIRR upgrade their antiquated signal and electric dist. system?
I came from Jones Beach, the other direction, and we sat just outside the tunnel in LIC waiting for this "disabled train" to "able itself"!! Meanwhile, trains were passing us on the other track going into the City. Oh, we did move once--about 50 feet! Geez, 40 minutes watching the sun about to set--it wasn't too bad a delay....... Tony
While viewing some of Joe Testagrose's great pictures of Toronto Heavy Rail, I noticed (as well as when I was there examining the trackbed) the Third rail chairs and covers are a (what appears to be) a duplicate of those used on NYC B Division lines, with the exception of the newer non-wood type cover installed on some parts of the B Division.
Can anyone confirm this?
A Concourse to 207th St Transfer occurred tonight on the IRT, which saw what should be the end for these cars on the road.
Out of Concourse and into 207th St, for what will make up more cars going to the waters:
8 Cars Transferred (from what I observed) - R28s - 7894 and 95, 7952 and 7953
R-36s, 9478 and 79, 9482 and 83.
Surprisingly, (or perhaps not) the Rollsigns have already been stripped out of 9478 and 79 before getting to the shop. All right, who's responsible for the disappearance of those signs???
-Stef
There are train operators who are buffs that are removing those signs as well as some train operators who know that buffs want those roll signs. If you want one, keep an eye out on e-bay there might be some soon.
How much ya wanna bet the State Inspector General BUSTS the employees for "theft of state property" when it appears on eBay? You know how that goes, I'm sure. The ole state motto, "Keep your head down and always wear your cup" ... next year is election season after all.
Those cars were stripped at 207 yd. before. Were they shipped out to CCY to make room at 207 and are now being brought back to await their fate?
They were stripped before?
Well, it's time for them to meet their maker.
If you see these in the shop you'll know for sure what the real deal is.
-Stef
From the 8/24/01 Washington Post. I hope they can find another solution.
How about bunk benches? For base fare, you get the upper bunk. For premium fare, the lower bunk.
Or maybe it's the other way around...
:0)
Clever idea. It just might work
yes, well the "new systems" are maturing to be real subways and reality is setting in. In a previous article the Post noted that 60% of the daily rides were on average .9 mile. That is not a suburban commute. WMATA which like BART was trying for a "middle class feel"with carpeting (BART is 'finally' experimenting with a dozen non-carpeted cars)cushy seats etc. is now a victim of its own success.
The harder problem is the completely defective track layout at both systems--NO EXPRESS TRACKS and way too few crossovers in BART's case which impose severe restraints on service patterns.
Exactly right, Dave.
So why not just improve the track layouts, or add more cars? It's going to be more expensive, but if they downgrade the service, it will effectively force some people to seek other ways to commute because they don't want to travel in a stinking carriage with vinyl floors. They could even put up the fares -- that's probably a better strategy than degrading their service.
Well, you can add more crossovers and the like, but I believe that would require more openings between individual tunnels, so that could be expensive. Adding a third or fourth track means building a new tunnel or rebuilding the existing one - and then rebuilding some stations.
This would be costly. An example of a costly line rebuild here in NY is the 63rd St Connector: 3 miles redone to include crossovers, widening a four-track tunnel to six tracks, new ramps, new signals, 3000 feet of new tunnel (1500 for NYCTA, 1500 under that for LIRR) - and doing it while not shutting down Queens Blvd. subway traffic. That, plus a new employee facility = $645 million. WMATA would be looking at that kind of expense and then some; to add tunnel in some places in DC means blasting through solid rock, even more expensive.
The harder problem is the completely defective track layout at both systems--NO EXPRESS TRACKS and way too few crossovers in BART's case which impose severe restraints on service patterns.
As I see it, on those systems, all the tracks are express tracks, since the stops are significantly farther apart than in New York. Consider the Moscow subway, which serves 8,000,000 people daily. Trains run up to every 80 seconds, and most trains consist of 7 cars, each of which is 60 feet long and about 9.5 feet wide. Each car has four wide doors per side, and nice padded bench seats. The system consists of 10 lines, each of which is two tracks, with no revenue service track connections between the lines. The stops are far apart (1-1.5 km), and trains go fast. It takes 30 minutes to get from the outermost stop on a line to the center of the city. For the equivalent of local service, you just get out and take the bus or tram or trolleybus or walk.
And of course, the whole thing gets no subsidy, and still looks like the monument of architecture that it was designed to be. By comparison, the NYC subway looks like a third world country.
One thing they could think about doing first is narrowing the width of the front- and rear-facing seats. I've never gone down there with a tape measure, but the WMATA cars are just about the same width as the R-44/46/68 trains, but the width of the forward/rear seats seems to be at least three- to four-inches wider per seat than the ones on the NYCTA cars. With four seats going across, that's about 12 to 16 inches less space for standees or people moving through the cars.
Why not compromise and make 1/2 the car bench/perimeter seating and the other half transverse? But don't do it like the R-44/46/68 design, where the transverse seats are distributed throughout the car. Rather, leave, say, the front half of the car the way it is, and place the bench seats facing each other in the back half. Remodeling 1/2 the car would be slightly less expensive, no? As evidence that this is better, note that on the R44/46/68s, people don't move into the cars away from the doors because of the obstacle course that this intermittent transverse/bench seating arrangement creates.
Did WMATA ever think of 2/1 seating, like NYCTA buses ? That way only seats on one side of the car need to be changed. I noticed the seats are mounted on some sort of box foundation, perhaps some sort of aparatus inside ?
When more of the CAF cars come in to ease some of the overcrowding, perhaps a set of cars with the bench style seating as a test. If they go bench seats, what's next, linoleum floors ?
It seems that WMATA's success is it's own problem. They first started with a line or two. Now, a quarter of a century later with more lines and extensions, METRO is experiencing growing pains. METRO has indeed spawned housing developments in close proximity of their lines.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, send them the R38s and the Slants when the R160s arrive!
wayne
Hey why not -- D.C. sent New York their old Metrobuses back in the early 1980s during the Flxible bus crisis.
Crisis? You mean to tell me that having a diesel engine fall out of the bus into the street is a problem?
What were passengers crying about? they could just do the Flintstones' thing with their feet...:0)
One thing I noticed when I rode Metro was the excessively long headways in between trains. I'm sure there's enough room in the system to add more trains and decrease the headways, so why doesn't the WMATA do that? And also I noticed many lines run only four car trains most of the time, including rush hours. I realise that correcting these problems would require buying more trains, but the WMATA seems to be buying a lot of trains now, so I'm sure there will be enough to do this.
They should try correcting these problems before going to an uncomfortable bench seating design.
WMATA is severely short of cars due to the opening of the final sections of the Green Line in Northeast and P.G. County, coupled with the botched manufacture of the CAF cars, resuting in delays in delivery. Once CAF gets its shit together, the additional equipment will help.
Why do you think bench seating is uncomfortable?
I find longitudinal (sideways) seating more comfortable than transverse (front-back) seating. Sure, it's nice to be able to sit by the window on an empty train, but once the train gets moderately crowded, nobody wants to sit there anymore. And if the train is very crowded, that's a good place to sit if you want to miss your stop. Longitudinal seats provide greater capacity in each car and allow for better circulation.
As for bench vs. bucket (which I don't think is the issue here), people vary in size. Any bucket seat will be either too small for some people (making the seats on either side unusable or very uncomfortable at best) or too large for others (wasting space). Bench seats are more flexible.
Bench seating makes it easier to recline in a subwaycar, a practice transit authorities frown upon. I always had the impression that bucket seats were, in part, an "anti-vagrant" device.
Crowded trains are also an anti-vagrant device.
Agreed!
But WMATA trains don't have bucket seats really, they're cushoined seats that have a separation between the cushions. I find there's plenty of room on these seats for anyone of any size to sit down comfortably.
As for longitudinal seating, I just don't like sitting sideways, but that's just me personally. I also like to be able to look out the window while I'm riding. I know some people prefer sitting sideways, but that's why there should be both... transverse for the ones who like transverse and longitudinal for those who like longitudinal. That's why I think the current setup is great.
As for missing your stop while sitting in transverse seating on the train, I've been on excessively crowded WMATA trains before and I circumvented the problem by getting up at the station before mine and pushing through while everyone was getting off at that station. That way I'm close to the doors for when the train stops at my station.
But I think the greatest seating arrangement on a subway is the arrangement on New York's R44-R46-R68 (and others?) and all Toronto trains: door, two or three seat longitudinal, forward facing transverse, rear facing trasverse, two or three seat longitudinal and the next door. That way there's still lots of room for standees and those who like transverse can have some seats available for them.
But WMATA trains don't have bucket seats really, they're cushoined seats that have a separation between the cushions. I find there's plenty of room on these seats for anyone of any size to sit down comfortably.
I just wanted to clarify the terminology. You're not arguing against bench seating; you're arguing against longitudinal seating.
As for longitudinal seating, I just don't like sitting sideways, but that's just me personally. I also like to be able to look out the window while I'm riding. I know some people prefer sitting sideways, but that's why there should be both... transverse for the ones who like transverse and longitudinal for those who like longitudinal. That's why I think the current setup is great.
But transverse seating takes up valuable space that could be used to hold more passengers, and transverse seating hinders passenger circulation. Personally, I'd prefer to lie on a bed in the center of the car, but I don't think WMATA would accomodate my preference.
The window seats are nice but overrated. There's invariably a smudge on the window from the previous passenger's head. And there's always a view across to the opposite window, unless the train is very crowded.
As for missing your stop while sitting in transverse seating on the train, I've been on excessively crowded WMATA trains before and I circumvented the problem by getting up at the station before mine and pushing through while everyone was getting off at that station. That way I'm close to the doors for when the train stops at my station.
That doesn't work in Manhattan, where lots of people get off and on at each station. If you push your way to the door while people are getting off, you'll be pushed right back by the people getting on.
But I think the greatest seating arrangement on a subway is the arrangement on New York's R44-R46-R68 (and others?) and all Toronto trains: door, two or three seat longitudinal, forward facing transverse, rear facing trasverse, two or three seat longitudinal and the next door. That way there's still lots of room for standees and those who like transverse can have some seats available for them.
But the standees get stuck in one section of the car since there's little space to maneuver between transverse seats. At the very least, transverse seats shouldn't be placed across from transverse seats.
Until the R-142, the R-42 was the last NYC car whose interior was designed with usability the primary concern. The R-44 was a brand new design, meant to look nice (long cars, faux wood, fancy wallpaper, colorful seats, etc.). Compare dwell times on the E (mostly R-32's) and F (all R-46's) in Queens today and I think you'll find that this was a mistake. Incidentally, I happen to find the R-42 the most aesthetically appealing car in service today and the R-44 the least.
Any bucket seat will be either too small for some people
(making the seats on either side unusable or very uncomfortable at best) or too large for others (wasting space). Bench seats are more flexible.
Surely, then, WMATA ought to regulate the size of its citizens? Those who are too small to sit in a bucket seat will be asked to eat more, and those who are too big will be asked to reduce their size before travelling on WMATA again.
Nah, those who are extra large, can use one cheek per bucket, as it were.
Seriously, I have seen large people do that in the NYC subway. I remember a debate in the NY Times in the late 1980s that the bucket seats in (whatever series, but it was Kawasaki-built) were designed for the Japanese butts, rather than the somewhat-larger American butts.
I’m no lightweight myself, but after spending a miserable flight from England seated next to someone so large he overflowed 1/3 into my seat, I firmly believe that there should be weight restrictions after which people should be required to buy two tickets!
John
Another urban legend. THe seats were designed smaller at the request of the TA to fit more seats into each car.
-Hank
>>> I firmly believe that there should be weight restrictions after which people should be required to buy two tickets! <<<
This would be considered discrimination.
Peace,
ANDEE
This would be considered discrimination.
But it's legal, at least on an airplane. I had a fellow on my team at work who would have to purchase two first class tickets when he flew (he weighed about 550 pounds). Needless to say, I never sent him on a business trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One thing I noticed when I rode Metro was the excessively long headways in between trains. I'm sure there's enough room in the system to add more trains and decrease the headways, so why doesn't the WMATA do that? And also I noticed many lines run only four car trains most of the time, including rush hours. I realise that correcting these problems would require buying more trains, but the WMATA seems to be buying a lot of trains now, so I'm sure there will be enough to do this.
They should try correcting these problems before going to an uncomfortable bench seating design.
The long headways were a design feature of the system originally. They designed the original cars to be long, wide, and fast. The high per-car capacity allowed them to run fewer, shorter trains, improving efficiency over other systems.
But of course that's all moot now that the system is bursting at the seams. They desparately want to run longer trains, more often. The system is designed to handle up to eight-car trains. If they could run eight-car trains with 5-minute headways, they'd do it. They just don't have the cars, and they don't have enough money for enough new cars.
By the way, the talk about bench seating is only for future new cars. There are 50 new cars, to follow the current CAF order, which are on the drawing board right now, and that's where bench seating (and four doors per side) are being discussed. They can't convert any of the existing cars to bench seating, because it would increase capacity enough that the added load would create structural problems.
>>would create structural problems.<<
right, on the first day in '76 cars were so overloaded they flexed jamming doors. riders had to empty the cars.
Wow! Has this ever happened on a 75' NYC subway car?
Was at the Met game last night, and walked past the yard to the LIRR. I didn't see any.
I did see all the R33 singles coupled together. Are they the next batch to "swim with the fishes."
Did it ever occur to you that the reason you didn't see the car was because it was inside the barn?
No.
You wouldn't see them yet. At the rate that the Redbirds are disappearing on the Flushing line, (not so good), there will be no room for them.
Also, think about HOW they are going to get those R62's in Corona. The NYCT will need some kind of crane. It's pretty obvious that if anyone did see R62's at Corona, something big would boom in the area for Railfans.
As for the barn, I'll leave that to the experts.
1) What are barns (what is their purpose) and where are they located?
(You can't be Einstein in every single aspect of trains, I know).
Railfan Pete.
The R62's will get to Corona like all the other cars. By rail. Remember the only entrance/exit point on the line is to the N at QBP.
As for barns, they are located in most yards and they maintain all of the equipment we ride. It it wasn't for the men and women in blue, we would be waiting on the platform for a long time.
Other than it was a original R7A body but rebuilt into a R10 as a prototype I have question about this car. All of its career 1575 ran only with R1-9 on the same train together, but did 1575 ever ran with R10 together on the same train?
As far as I know, it COULDN'T without serious playing of "bucky beaver" ... it was a "concept car" not a rework and while you could lash up R10's and R1/9's, the geese SURE didn't like the ride any.
Selkirk is correct. The R10's accelerated faster than the R1-R9's, different gear ratio's and such.
That's why my F trains always lost out to the A when we raced northbound out of Jay Street when I was a kid. I still have issues.................
Would you believe, the "ta" in its miniscule wisdom actually *DID* lash up R1/9's and 10's in a few consists? I think that's why 1-800-INJURED remains in business today. Heh. I'd seen "the imposter" on the rails, it was always in an R1/9 consist though whenever I saw it. I might have actually pulled that car somewhere in my runs though I never noticed it in MY train ...
But it looked ___SO___ out of place in a consist. :)
There's a couple of pictures of it in Grellar's book NYC Subway cars.
It really looks out of place when they were painting some of the R1-9's in MTA Blue & Silver, and you had what looked like an R10 in it's original colors.
Heh. DON'T GET ME STARTED on the "war between the states" paint job. That was obscenity beyond anything Rudy could get worked up over. Those things cam Pullman Khaki and they should have STAYED Pullman Khaki with "CITY OF NEW YORK" at midriff until they got torched. Just don't get me started. :)
LOL - Didn't mean to. I thought it was ugly, too.
Arrrrrrrrrgh! Only thing that looked DUMBER in that paint scheme was the R-10's ... could you just IMAGINE if they had slapped that crap on the standards and triplexes? Some resident of City Hole would have been butchered in his bed by Sea Beach Fred and his BMT boys. :)
The outside paint job was an affront, but the INSIDE color selection of pistachio green walls with gray doors and stenciled car numbers was even worse. And of course, this all came during a time when the TA's deferred maintenance program was really swinging into high gear and the first graffiti problems were showing up on the trains. It seemed like between 1971 annd 1984 the MTA's answer to every problem with the 1964-and-earlier rolling stock was "slap some more silver and blue paint on it" (at least the green and gray interior nightmare colors bit the dust when the IRT began getting AC units in 1978).
I was fortunate enough to miss the vomit green (saw enough of it on the IRT, another reason why the redbirds can go swimming as far as I cared) ... they were still Pullman and beige when I worked the railroad and yeah, they were getting tagged but in my time, that just stayed. They took them off the railroad for layup after they did a round trip so they didn't get all THAT much of it ... except for the outside of the cars. The put-ins for the D lived in that smaller yard between the west end and the Sea Beach usually and that was watched a bit better for "car climbers" than the main yard.
The ones I ran still had their original paint other than the magic marker crap. Then again, this was 1970/71 ...
Of course, you all remember the days from the late 60s on when the TA actually washed the outsides of the subway cars.
Through the mid 60s, no matter what color the cars started out, they soon were uniformly non-descript dirt color on the outside -- any color, striping, or lettering hidden under a layer of grime. Standards, triplexes, R1-9s, ex-SIRT cars, R16, R17, R21, ..., all looked pretty much the same color. The R10s were an exception - in their wisdom, the TA saw fit to buy car washers for the 207 St Washing ton Hts. yard in the 50s.
-- Ed Sachs
Yep ... and that's probably what was behind the decision to ultimately paint the entire fleet in bare metal, looking like toasters. :)
When they started running the R-1/9s through the washers, the gold "City of New York" lettering became visible once again after being covered over for so many years. Chances are some people didn't even know it was there.
Actually, most of them did. The only ones that got the silver and blue treatment were some R-7s and R-9s on the Eastern Division, and then it wasn't all that many. I never saw one like that in revenue service, but then I never rode on the old timers again after July of 1971.
I remember seeing some of them with a "WTF?" reaction on my part. And I dunno what it is about that "war between the states" paint they used (MUST have been that Sears crap) but they got grungy in WEEKS after getting painted and over a short period of time, ALL of the war paint cars looked WORSE than those that had never been painted. Should have left well enough alone. They did that to the R10's too. Sheesh.
Every non-stainless steel car got the silver and blue treatment except for the WF R-36s, R-33 singles, and most of the remaining R-1/9s. The TA was heavily into the "corporate look". Frankly, I think that scheme would have worked had it not been for the graffiti epidemic which hit at the same time.
I submit that the scheme looked SO bad that it actually ENCOURAGED tagging of them. I know I felt like buying some cream and aqua Krylon myself at the time. :)
Especially on the insides -- Pistachio green? That's a color that just screams out from the top of the highest mountain "TAG ME!"
As I've said, my biggest complaint with the exterior colors wasn't the design -- it was pretty much the carbon steel version of the R-42 color pattern -- but that the blue and silver paint, and the cinder block walls on the BMT Broadway local stops -- also mostly in the MTA corporate colors -- were about the only thing the agency seemed to be spending money on for the subways during the 1970s ("Mr. Ronan, we're having trouble with the door motors on the R-16s and the IRT passengers are crying for air-conidioning in their cars, like PATH has." "Well, don't just stand there, go out and buy some more blue and silver paint." "And we've got complaints about the noise level on the R-10s on the A train. "Paint 'em, paint `em and if that doesn't work, paint `em again...")
Heh. And it worked NICELY ... nothing like the smell of fresh paint to substitute for that "new car smell" ... I *hope* that's what I was smelling. The alternatives are well ...
There was that famous two-word "Ronan stinks." editorial. 'Nuff said.
Hey, put the racing stripe scheme back on an R-10. I could live with that.
You find the car, I'll find the masking tape. :)
It's too bad there are only two R-10s left in existence.
The rest of them did end their lives in a pretty shabby condition. Well, looks like a case of paint oughta do it then. Heh.
I thought that the Greenbottle R10s looked pretty decent, even near the end. A few of them had begun to fall apart but appeared to still be viable.
wayne
Never saw any of those but I was gone from the city by 1974. Better prospects upstate at the time so I leaped. Natch, I'll always remember the A train (R10's on other lines was sarilege to me heh) as being cream and aqua ... looked pretty snazzy for painted cars, though I have seen pictures of the GOH paintjob and that looked pretty decent too. Never saw it close up and personal though. As much as I liked those cars, they were pretty much beaten to hell by the 70's.
Nah, the "bottle green", as Wayne calls them, looked great on the R10s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably did ... just never saw it. A lot of folks thought the R1/9's came in rust brown color. The original Pullman green was rather nice too.
1689 has been redone in that Pullman green color, or something close to it. The racing stripe sheme on the R-10s was my alltime favorite. Too bad they didn't keep it longer.
I wonder if anyone at Sutphin Blvd. on that memorable day in 1981 asked, "Why is that A train running HERE?" as that F train headed by 3080 roared past.
Ahh...but those R-10's went out in a blaze of glory with the final farewell E.R.A. fantrip that was held on Sunday, October 29, 1989. For all those years in revenue service, they had a very rich and colorful history in terms of route and mileage coverage, with the IND "A" line as their ruling turf at first.
While #3184 was restored back to its original 1948 paint scheme, hopefully #3189 (the other R-10 car in existence) could one day be the perfect candidate to repainted back into the aqua blue and white plus stripe scheme as a museum car (I hope, I hope, I hope). The R-10's can take a bow to that!!!
-William A. Padron
Be nice for a a lash-up of a pair of r/10s and a couple of r/30s or that lonesome r/11 to make a fan trip?
Any drooling out there? Fan windows, real life Proto sounds, doors that latch open. Lights that blink! Shouting to have a conversation.
avid
No PA system, no door chimes, no headlights and , of course no A/C!
Once upon a time, WE LIKED IT ... heh. Before the airconditioning came along, they actually had ventilation rooms that blew air through the tunnels and no air conditioning to heat up the stations even more. Sure you'd schvitz but that's the way it was. Dunno why, but I've noticed sinec I live without air conditioning, I don't get as sick as I used to in the summer anymore.
We did not mind the heat on the trains because when we would get to our workplace, there was no A/C there either.
I think the only place we could find A/C was in the movie theatres in the old days.
I drove a classic 1953 Chevy upstate for a friend last month on a day when the temperature hit 99 here. I asked a friend to ride along with me so I did not have to make the trip alone. He's still mad at me because I didn't specifically tell him that the car did not have A/C.
Hell! At least the car had vent windows!
Yeah, I remember that kinda reality too. Up here where I live, we don't have an air conditioner in the house or in the business. There's maybe a week or two at worst this time of year where you say to yourself, "self, we could really USE some air conditioning tonight" ... then you come to your senses ...
And while the theaters were nice and chilly, NOTHING beat that "curtain of air" passing into an A&P with the chill water plant output inside. Wonder how many people remember the doorless supermarkets where you walked through the wall of air inside without ever opening any doors. Probably plenty here ...
I'll bet that when you reach Medicare age and the temperature hits 100, you will reconsider the no A/C philosophy.
I'm not that far from it (12 years or so to go) but I'm up in the hilltowns west of Albany ... at this elevation, there's always a breeze and surrounded by seven acres of trees. It's only when it gets soupy with dewpoints beyond 68 (like today) that the pangs of "this chews" strike. :)
I worry a lot more about the 40 below zero nights in a few months.
You can keep those 40 below temps up there. We've been here 44 years and the worst we ever had was about 14 below, and that was about 20 years ago.
I don't remember it getting even that cold in NYC when I lived there, but I was a lot younger, and maybe I could cope better.
I thought it was great to ride the els on real cold days, especially when it was snowing. The Standards were always warm, but the open platforms on the BU's were something else.
Heh. It gets seriously cold up here in the wintertime, so cold you GOTTA leave a locomotive running because if you shut her down, she won't start up again until March. Heh.
But it ain't so bad - you keep a big pantry in case you get snowed in for a week and you keep telling yourself "the skiers only get to hang out here for a weekend, you LIVE here." :)
Hey, at least you're not in Old Forge which is without a doubt the coldest, snowiest place in the Eastern United States every winter. The winds come off Lake Ontario in the winter and just dumps all that moist air on the Tughill Plateau, with Old Forge seemingly getting the brunt of it.
My favorite was the winter of 1978-79 when they had 402 inches of snow and I believe on 2/15/79 the temperature hit 52 below and the power went out (I was in Syracuse tonight where I learned a valuable lesson of life -- never tap a keg outside at 26 below).
Old Forge makes Albany or anyplace else in Upstate New York look like Palm Springs.
Heh. Absolutely true ... and yes, I've made the mistake of trying to open frozen beers and the bigger they are, the farther they shoot. But this is getting further and further away from the R10 imposter and I always feel guilty swinging way off topic.
So ... here's a good way back to the tracks ... wonder what the absolute coldest temperature is that you can get a subway car to roll at ... doubtful they'd move at minus 40 unless they already were moving. :)
I would guess that just like people living in the frozen tundra know more about keeping their cars in starting condition, subway systems in northern areas that get a lot colder than New York (Moscow, even Toronto and Montreal) probably employ some method of keeping the cars warm enough to run in temperatures worse than -20. Minus-40 though, might be a bit too much, unless the trains are kept running all the time to generate their own heat (and it's hard to see them rolling all the cars in the middle of the night to keep from freezing).
Heated carbarns help and nominally in VERY deep tunnels, you can lay them up down there, insulated from the depths of the coldest parts of the evening. A perfect example resides here in upstate New York, a place called "Howe Caverns" which is just down the road from here. It maintains a temperature of about 55 degrees all year round. Then again, you don't have the piston effect of trains in and out of it either. It's about 160 feet down underground where what happens on the surface has little bearing on the environment down there.
There are ways, but they're costly. Perhaps this is also why NYCTA brings the trains "indoors" for inclement weather as well. There is nothing as cold in all creation as trying to charge a train at Stillwell at 5am in February.
I've read that one other reason for the cold weather plan is the concern of frozen switch points in the yards.
The cylinders and reservoirs and cams didn't much like the cold weather either. If they got left out in insanely cold weather, a lot of them wouldn't move. And yes, frozen points as well since the TA didn't have point heaters. Coney, Brighton and Stillwell are especially hasty in the winter with the ocean breeze on top of the rest.
>>>>(I was in Syracuse tonight where I learned a valuable lesson of life -- never tap a keg outside at 26 below). <<<
Why? What happens when you tap a keg at 26 below?
Peace,
ANDEE
Pretty much the same thing that happens when you leave one on the tracks at room temperature and a train comes along. Can we say "who needs a missile defense? Just chill some kegs?" :)
Plus the tap makes a dandy launching device once the seal is broken, though the thing tends to launch up, making it a clear and present danger to any outside porch roofs that might be in the way :-)
Heh. Just another thrill of upstate life. :)
We have those here in Denver. Our King Soopers has such an entrance where you walk through a wall of air.
Nice to know there's still some around. They disappeared from the city in the 60's. And if only there was something like that with WATER in it back in those times, they could have kept the R1/9's clean enough that you could see that they were Pullman khaki colored. :)
My Jeep has both A/C and opening vent windows. However, I usually don't turn on the A/C until it gets up to at least 95 degrees. It may be time to convert from an R-12 system to an R-134a.
Rode them frequently when I lived at 230th and Broadway (despised the toonerville trolley #1 line that took FOREVER to get downtown, so I walked to 211th St and took the swift train) and could never get used to the idea of other lines using the R10 which I of course know really happened, but I'll remain forever in denial (never happened, never happened, don't wanna hear different) ...
But my own fave always was the R1/9's, having actually WORKED those.
The R/1-9s had those great squat shiney brass fire extingushers that held about a quart of some chemical. Anybody have one? Or am i having one of Kevins dreams?
avid
Heh. The ones in the cabs were good, dunno about the ones out behind the glass though.
I'm with you. The R-10s will forever be synonimous with the A. They sure looked out of place running anywhere else, although they did have a chance to strut their sheer brute speed on the Queens line for a brief period of time.
And just as much as the R10's said A train, the R1/9's said "E and CC" ... when they ended up on the BMT, that was another dose of heresy. And then the war paint. Oh the indignities they suffered but at least they didn't go sleep with the fishes. :)
Some R-36s (and probably R-33Ss as well) got the silver-and-blue paint scheme, while others went directly from their World's Fair livery to Ed Koch White (it was Koch's idea).
David
That is correct. Most cars got a second silver-and-blue go around in 1979-80, and this time some of the WF R-36s were included. Not that it mattered - I saw freshly repainted cars with what appeared to be a whole can of paint just splashed all over one side. Everything was obliterated.
The R-10s had four 100-hp motors per car as opposed to two 190-hp motors per R-1/9. They accellerated 25% faster then their prewar predecessors. Not to mention they were a bit noisier, but not that bad in their heyday. If you were standing on the platform at 81st when an A train went by, you got an earful.
You mean four 100-hp motors per TRUCK, eight per car.
No, he means four per car, two per truck, and he's right.
David
I stand corrected, I thought I saw a spec, at the transit museum, decribing the trucks as having four motors; two connected in series per axle, per truck. I might have misinterpreted what I was reading. I'll recheck my info - thanks.
Yes, each R10-R40 truck has two motors - one for each axle. Each motor is rated at 100 HP, 300 volts, 250 amps. The motors are connected in series, so each gets half the 600 volt third rail voltage (when running at full power). Therefore a car has 400 HP, and a full length 10 car train has 4000 HP (and draws an amazing 5000 amps!). During the peak of the rush hour, the NYC subway system uses about 500,000 kilowatts of DC power (or about 700,000 horsepower!). The average load is about 200,000 kilowatts.
No way. The cars are not compatable. The R10 was the first SMEE contract. Even though 1575 looked like an R10, it was not a SMEE. The 1/9's did not have self lapping brakes, the SMEE does.
Aw c'mon ... I just KNOW the "ta" played it in mixed R10 ... "gee whiz, it LOOKS like an R10, let's HUMP IT!" ... but sure would have been the "Rocky and Bullwinkle show" for the poor bastards who had to ride it. Heh.
Like I said, only saw the imposter in R1/9 consists, ain't sure if someone stuck it in the middle of one of mine, but ya never know what blind car knockers would throw into a consist. Hell. I saw R10's and 42's mixed ... if that don't beat all, makes ya wonder what would have been had the MTA had PCC's in the yards. :)
R10's and R42's were able to operate together because they were SMEE's, therefore compatable. The 1/9 were not SMEE and therefore not compatble with the SMEE. In order to stop an R1/9, you take a "brake reduction" and lap the brake valve, not so on the SMEE which is a self lapper. On the R1/9 the train charges up where the position on the SMEE brake valve is the "release" position. Finally, the R1/9's had a brake plug, part of the motormans tools, which plugged in right above the controller. This was a fuse which provided the trains' electric brake. If 1575 was moved as a single car in the yard and coupled to a train of R10's, the train would not charge and where 1575 was, there would be a blow of air.
Yepper ... that's why I wondered ... and yes, knew all about the necessity of the "butt plug" ... when my train crashed in Coney, I was dismissed over suspicion that I had withdrawn or improperly installed the buttplug. It was determined after my dismissal that the butt plug WAS in place and that it was an O ring in a valve that had failed three cars behind me. I got screwed, but under TWU, screwed fair and square outta my gig since it was a promotional and a probie once again after being a conductor prior to the promotion. At the time, the system was going through an "attitude adjustment" similar to the O/C T/O thing today. "I am NOT WORTHY ... party on ..."
But yeah, I knew the difference ... still, ya got used to seeing MONGREL consists on the rails back in my days, hell ... they put IRT cars out when they really needed them on B division ... that didn't last long either, but such was the basis of my "why not?"
Wow! That sucks! Were you OK? What did you hit?
I know of a story where a T/O brought his train into Main St. and the brakes failed. Most people thought he did it but as it turned out it was faulty eqipment and he was vindicated.
I lost my two lower front teeth when my face hit the bulkhead. The TA didn't care, finding the fault with a carbon-based lifeform was all they cared about at the time. Alas, because I crunched anticlimbers and the union thought I was to blame ("being inadequately trained as a result of rushing employees through training") and thus, becoming a scarificial lamb, the NTSB got called in and along with an MTA investigation, it was ultimately determined 12 months after the fact that it was "not human error" ... however, I was NOT invited back and I already was doing much better as an electronics engineer so even if I had been "vindicated with back pat" I had already done better and wasn't interested at that point in going back, all was settled out.
The replacement teeth didn't last long and I am still missing those two front teeth, but what the hey, I got out of the city and am MUCH happier than had I gone back on the rails. I took the TA job because I was a railfan to begin with, wasn't much better available and I passed the civil service test and beacme a conductor, then a motorman. I *got* my yayas, and the quickly got bored. I wouldn't have lasted anyway. I don't regret it all. At the age of 19, sometimes, life needs to give you a concussion to come to your senses. :)
Ouch. Thanks. Best of luck!
Heh. I'm doing better. :)
For years I was under the impression that the R-10s could only operate by themselves because of their pneumatic door engines. Then Train Dude was kind enough to explain that it didn't matter whether you had pneumatic or electric door engines as long as the electric portions had the same pin arrangement. The R-10s had the same electric portions as all other SMEE cars and the pins were arranged the same way.
Luckily, I only saw the R-10s in solid trains. I would have had a stroke if I had seen them mixed in with anything else, and I used to go nuts seeing R-32s and R-42s coupled together on D trains.
Did you ever ride the 1575 ? If so, what did it have the "feel" of, an R1 or an R10 ?
TO: Joe V - from - Joe F @ NYCMTS
Joe - I rode car 1575 a number of times in the 1960 thru 1969 era - by accident of course - you really had to just catch it - usually midtrain. I recall my FIRST sighting of it on the Concourse line around
summer 1960. A train pulled in (in Manhattan on the upper east side - station I cant recall but it was in the 70th to 100th st section of the line under
Central Park West....train came in as I entered the platform so I boarded at the mid-train point and
walked thru the cars towards the lst car and the
traditional storm door-"railfan" window. I never made it!! The 2nd car ahead of my entry car was 1575!! As a new member of (1960) the Electric Railroaders Assn., I was shocked to be staring thru the storm door of the car I was about to enter - into the brilliance of "flourescent" lighting - known to me then to be an R-10 car of the IND - and not a vintage R1-9 class "grinder" with the swirling blue "burning hot motor oil and axle grease" smoke
emmanating from under these old (I loved em!) tanks.
Well, I couldnt believe my eyes---an R-10 mid train.
I must have looked to other passengers like I discovered an "alien" as I walked thru the car and studied it..and eventually sat down.
However, it had the SOUNDS, running feel and vibrations and noise of a powered R-1-9 car - which mystified me. Doors opening on it sounded just like the R-10 cars I also rode complete trains of on the IND. The interior was unqestionably a TOTAL R-10 !
I was astute enough even 40 years ago to know that R-1/9 and 10's had completely different control and braking systems - so I was entranced trying to "figure this lashup" out..did I discover something my newfound ERA friends didnt know about??
Closing my eyes -the car rode and sounded just like an R-1-9..no doubt about it...complete with a screaming, whining bull & pinion gear on the motor truck end - and the telltale "blue smoke" wafting up from undercar outside my seat window-- station stop after stop (I never did get OFF at my intended stop
of 34th street!). However, the interior was totally an R-10 body...even more so when the train was
stopped "quietly" at a station stop (except for the
"compressor" sound (as my pal SELKIRK / Kevin A-- related in a previous thread ) running more-so than not...(leaking air, Kevin?). As I didnt know the history of 1575 that day, I conjured all sort of schemes as to how an R-10 body (and why) got
"installed" on an R-1-9 chassis...my only obvious, reasonable, deduction. Upon starting,the car was
quite obviously NOT an R-10 with R-10's whistling, whiring traction sounds and FAST acceleration and its fast dynamic-braking-mode (throw 'em down the aisles...!" fast braking characteristics. It most definitely had that lethargic R-1-9 non-dynamic
braking feel to it.
Being I did volunteer work at the ERA HQ (the old office on Greenwich St. pre-World trade Center days) I asked my old (long deceased now) friend Herman Rinke about "1575" and got the whole story over lunch at the downstairs corner coffee shop...and also realized that my "strange rare find" was a quite well known event among the initiated old timers. The car body shell is a totally NEW R-10
with new wiring for the tiny fans and flourescent lights and new door-motors---but the old controls
were installed in the new cabs and new wiring from them to the original trucks and braking systems as well as to the door safety interlocks (MM control
cut out when doors are open). Even the heaters were new (R-10) with new wiring circuits - a total R-10.
Basically a new suit of clothes on an old "bum" (ha ha)....Selkirk would LIKE that...It was a PILOT car for the pre-production of the R-10's in 1948-9.
The "experience" was one of the small nuances of this hobby that intrigues some of us to this hobby--and I hope I answered your question from a first hand point of view. I always managed to ride that car when a "chance" meeting with it came across thru later years - only about 5 or 6 times more.
Only in Nooo Yawk....
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
My first recollection of seeing #1575 was at Stillwell terminal on the (D) now the (F). It was in mid consist, I remarked "gee, what's that (A) train car doing there"?
I didn't understand that it was an experimental model foran R-10 fleet. It stuck out like a sore thumb with it's OGEE roof in comparison to the deck roofed R-1-9s.
Maybe on this site there may be some vintage images with it as a north or south motor. I've seen these images signed up (LL) !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, like you I rode on car R7A 1575 many times went it was running on the AA or BB lines. As a kid, I used to wonder why a A train car (R10)was running with the old R1-9 cars. Now we know. Always enjoy going thur 1575 at the transit museum.
Ron J.
I rode it twice, both on the "LL" in 1971 and 1972. I've seen it on all of the other Eastern Div. lines ("M" shuttle, "KK", "QJ").
It sounded like an R-9 when it moved but the door motors and fans were all R-10.
wayne
I've seen a picture of it in Grellar's book on the south end of a QJ.
I was able to ride R-7A #1575 first in 1964 (when I was just six years old) on an uptown IND "BB" local heading towards 168th Street, and had later seen the car either on that route or the "AA" line. I also rode the R-10's on one uptown "BB" local run in 1965.
However, during my high school years in the mid-1970's, I was able to frequently ride R-7A #1575 on the "K" and "LL" lines. Sure, it looked liked an R-10, built like an R-10...but it wasn't an R-10!!!
-William A. Padron
That's the first time I ever heard of the R-10s running on the BB. Did you find yourself wondering what in the name of John Hylan they were doing there?:-)
When I rode that R-10 set on the IND "BB" line in 1965, at the really young age of seven, I had noticed right there and then that this trip featured was not the usual R-1/9's I accustomed in riding on the local services ("AA" or "BB") going to Washington Heights. The obvious tip off was the bright flourescent lighting in the cars throughout the consist, but I for myself didn't say at the time the usual typical phrase (as others would say), "Hey, what's the 'A' train doing here?"
Many, many years later, I had purchased a duplicate color slide showing an R-10 train in regular service (in its original paint scheme) on the uptown local track at 59th Street-Columbus Circle from that same year, and it was signed "BB-6th Ave." and "Wash. Hts.-168th St." The particular car number that was depicted as the lead north motor in the image was #3023.
-William A. Padron
Did you notice the absence of moaning and groaning as well?
It took me a while to make the association between the R-10s and the A, perhaps a few months. By September or October of 1967, it clicked. Those teal and white cars with the racing stripe ran on the A and nowhere else (my impression, anyway).
It would be really cool to see that slide scanned in the R-10 section. (know what I mean, know what I mean, nudge, nudge). Maybe they had a higher-than-normal number of R-1/9s sidelined for whatever reason and had to borrow a set of R-10s.
Well, back in 1965, there was no such mentioning or commenting of any type I had overheard concerning about the R-10's being "out of place" on the "BB" route. Beginning in late 1977-early 1978, I first heard a "GG" line rider entering an R-10 at Woodhaven Boulevard and asking the expected "What's the 'A' train doing here?" During the summer of 1980 (with the R-46 truck fiasco taking place), I was riding an R-10 on the "F", when a rider commented, after boarding at 47th-50th Streets, if that train being used had been pulled "out of mothballs".
As for the R-10 image at 59th Street on an uptown "BB" trip to ever be scanned for evidence, all I can say is that the slide is somewhere in one of the twenty Kodak slide projector wheel trays buried inside one of the huge storage closets in my apartment. I did display the slide at an Urban Transit Club meeting back in 1992 at a show presentation I personally narrated (much to the delight of that night's crowd there).
-William A. Padron
I don't know about mothballs; I got a live wire in #3080, the north motor on the "F" back in 1981 - this train SCREAMED down Queens Boulevard and once it got into the Hillside Express with no "E" to get in its way, it was Katy bar the door; we had do be doing 55 going through Sutphin Bvld. Only thing nearly that fast was a GE R-6-2 (man those cars could MOVE) or a Slant.
wayne
Ah, yes, 1233 aka A-440. Just how much of a straight run is there from the curve past Van Wyck to Sutphin? I've ridden on that line past Van Wyck only once, on an F train of R-46s running local, in October of 1988. IIRC it ran express on the way back, but it wasn't particularly spectacular.
I think a more appropriate slogan on that R-10 rocket of an F would have been:
GANGWAY, EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!
See? The R-10s were always associated with the A, and rightfully so. They definitely looked out of place on any other line.
Heh. Yeah, the compressors tended to run when you had leaky pipes - a few of the consists I got, I never heard them shut down for a second. In addition to brake air, they also fed the door air so they were busy. It was when you did an express run and they were STILL whirring when you got to your next stop that you wondered if you had what you needed. Most of the time of course you did. Ah yes, the land of blue smoke ... in all sincerity, a lot of them DIDN'T while a few of them were like old DeSotos. :)
I'd SEEN 1575 but didn't know the history of it, it just looked so out of place but at the same time, mongrel consists were a way of life then and you just didn't notice it anymore. If they were running nowadays, I'm sure that car would stand out like a lighthouse in the middle of the Pacific ...
Never saw or rode on it in revenue service. OTOH I know I saw R-10s with dual circular R-11/15 style windows on each door leaf.
It could not MU with R-10 (SMEE) equipment.
Virginia Division - BMT
I was lucky enough to ride 1575 3 times. There was the R/10 with 3 wide seating, don't know the number, rode it a couple or three times. Then there was the R/10 with the door window with 1/2 louvers and 1/2 glass. The air didn't fell any cooler or fresher. I guess thats why that idea went nowhere. The 3-wide seating was my favorite.
avid
The R-10 car with the special 3-2 wide seating was #3189, and it exists today at Pitkin Yard as an RCI Office-School Car. The other unit mentioned with those special "fish gill" vent side door (installed in 1950 and removed in 1986) was #3138, which was also found on IRT R-14 car #5952 as well.
-William A. Padron
The "vent door" car (3138) ... weren't those modified R1 doors? Somehow I remember hearing something to that effect many years ago.
No, they weren't!!! Those were special custom made additions that were applied on all the side door cars' openings of #3138. When they all removed, they became now normal looking with the standard glass window side panels as their sister units.
-William A. Padron
Thank ya! I *knew* you were the one to ask about that nagging memory.
Didn't kmow about the R/14 vent job. Thanx
I also liked the gray enamel of the center poles. A change from the White enamel of the R/9s.
avid
I wish I had noted the car numbers of those R-10s I saw with twin circular windows on each side door leaf.
Okay,
Hows this idea rub you?
A fan trip of R/10s (2) and any operable R/12 r/14s if they exist! Of course it would be restricted to the "B" division. Anyone know of any R12/14s above water level?
avid
I got this via E-mail this morning from BILL300@aol.com:
"The TA will be selling pastry before the trip
Also they will be selling roll signs and handles from the first 20 REEFED redbirds
Handles will be $10
Signs will vary between 35-50
Chrone Plated Spikes 20
plus a raffle for a chrome plated set of train operators tool ($5)
Should be a fun day Better bring some extra money
They will be selling pictures too SUBWAY SERIES!!!!!
They will be taking digital pictures of trip attendees in cabs
GOING TO BE A FUNFILLED DAY PASS THIS INFORMATION ALONG"
bring on the number plates... save us a fare hike.
For the first time today, I got the chance to look out the front window on an MBTA red line car. There were very few wayside signals, except at interlockings. The motorman's display appears to suggest that there is cab-signalling based on some sort of automatic train protection technology. A yellow dot on the speed dial shows the target speed and a numerical display shows the actual speed. I don't know if it was being computer-driven or not.
The observations I made applies to the new generation Bombardier stock -- the older stock still has conductors and I suspect the control technology there may be different.
The red line has basically three speed limits: 9mph, 24mph and 39mph -- or at least it did for the section I rode over, which comprises of Alewife to Kendall.
It was very clear that the red line had been extended at one stage. I learned from a station poster at Park St that it once termindated at Harvard Sq. The tunnel before Harvard were two-track, what looked like cut-and-cover tunnels. At Harvard, there is a strange old station (does anyone know what it is?) just south of the new Harvard station. The punishing curve (9 mph) approaching the new Harvard station from the old would suggest that the old station was the original terminal. The new section from Harvard to Alewife are twin deep-bore tunnels, one on top of the other. This is confirmed by the fact that Porter Sq is a loooong way below ground, you have to descent about 5 storeys by escalator before you get to the station.
Anyone with any details of the signalling technology (coded track circuits maybe?) please follow up to this post.
Thanks
Lexcie
Click here for some info on the Harvard station.
The "ghost" station you saw near Harvard was a temporary Harvard station, when the line was extended from the old Harvard terminal to Alewife. There was also a temporary Brattle terminal station, approximately where the Kennedy School of Government now sits, while all of this construction was going on.
Email me privately -- I work right at Kendall Square.
The infamous curve also goes right through part of the original Harvard Station (1912-1980). This was cheaper than deep tunneling under the existing station and much private property to allow a sweeping curve like those on the rest of the line. I am unsure of the actual relationship of the tunnels to each other but I know that the configuration of Harvard is due to the original arrangement of the terminal. The outbound track was directly over the inbound platform - you had to plug your ears when a train rolled in or pulled out.
Speed control is computerized on all Red Line cars, but station stops are manual. The newest cars use electronic control and AC motors, all others use Westinghouse cam control and DC motors.
All trains carry a conductor, only the Blue Line uses OPTO.
Speed codes on the Red Line are:
Stop
10 MPH
25 MPH
40 MPH
50 MPH (used only on Braintree branch)
01800s tend to stay below the limit as you observed. Older cars often overshoot and then apply brakes to bring speed back to the limit.
Incidentally, the design speed for the Red Line (except the Northwest Extension) was 30 MPH Minimum. Some curves are now restricted to 25 by the cab signal system, but I remember the line before it was dumbed down.
I believe that the MAS for the Red Line between Davis and Alewife is also 50 mph. I'll try to grab a look next time I go out that way.
Track circuits with 50-code available not on the Braintree branch are (southbound) 22232T, 22182T, 22127T and 22080T between Porter and Harvard, 21490T between Harvard and Central, 21028T between Central and Kendall, 2701T and 2594T heading out of Kendall and up the bridge grade, 2367T between South Station and Broadway, 2790T and 2895T between Broadway and Andrew...
Even more of them northbound than southbound... I'm sure you guys get the point. :)
A couple of the 50-codes shown on the MBTA's drawings were removed--a couple are near JFK/UMass and I think maybe one of the two uphill ones out of Kendall southbound.
The Red Line also has an Absolute Stop Block (ASB) feature, which enforces Rule 59A. In addition to normal control line logic, it (when turned on) allows one train within a predefined area. ASBs are placed where there are outdoor grades. They get used on rainy and icy days. These often make for more abrupt halts than usual.
Conventional ATC was installed on the South Shore branch when it was built in 1969, but was operated on manual block I think until the FRA was satisfied that it worked safely. At that point, Harvard was the nothern terminus, and the Harvard-Ashmont route was entire trip-stop wayside.
A temporary platform was built at the yard beyond Harvard and called Harvard/Brattle, and the existing Harvard platforms were reconfigured (one was moved to the other side of the track) and renamed Harvard/Holyoke.
The Alewife extension had ATC, and the signal diagrams of the Harvard-Ashmont route are dated 1987, so I guess it was cutover sometime between 1985 and 1987.
Thus, the entire line had ATC as of 1987. Speed commands are 10, 25, 40 and 50 mph. There are at least a few track circuits between Alewife and Kendall with 50 codes available. I think the older fleet will accept a 15- or 18- code but the signal system will not give one. It's conventional ATC--the train can control itself between stations, if the motorperson uses full power. Unlike in ATO systems, in ATC the motorperson must start and stop trains in the stations.
The track circuits are audio-frequency except at interlockings. One trip-stop and conventional wayside signal remains (I think it was new in 1987 but never worked) at Park Street southbound at the end of the platform (signal 7-4S) but is bagged. A couple of signals not immediately preceding interlockings (at Charles southbound and between Porter and Harvard southbound) are to allow efficient operations while short-turning is happening ahead.
The signal control lines are just like many other rail lines, with a speed command depending on the occupied track circuits (or route availability) in front (and in some rare cases, depending also on the occupancy of a track circuit *behind*). The design was changed in some places after the delivery of the No. 3 (Bombardier) cars which didn't brake as well as expected. To compensate, loss-of-shunting timers were added to a few track circuits (causing a delay in the appearance of the track circuit becoming unoccupied by 5 seconds) I think to insure there were no negative safe braking distance buffers.
The tunnel from Harvard to Davis is deep bore, from Davis to Alewife is cut-and-cover. The tunnels are never stacked (I think), but come into Harvard and Porter stations on different levels.
If you have any questions about the Red Line I'd be happy to do what I can to answer--I did my masters thesis on Red Line operations.
Harvard station features an upper-and-lower level design, but one track is not exactly above the other.
Adam -- you don't give an e-mail address so I have to post here. Could I have a citation for your thesis -- or could I somehow purchase/borrow a copy of your thesis from somewhere? I'm not particularly interested in the Red Line per se, but I suspect that thesis is something I ought to read at some point.
Sure--the fastest way would be for me to send it to you in PDF format.
It's nothing great, really... But the literature review would be a good reference for someone who likes to read this kind of stuff.
Thanks -- feel free to send it to: lu@felsted.rmplc.co.uk... then maybe I'll learn something about transits.
This past week, my family and I took a trip to the West Coast in the Los Angeles area. We visited my dad's friends and the next day we were off to Grand Canyon National Park.
And here is when I saw all that a railfan needs to see:
1) Down on I-40 from Los Angeles en route to Flagstaff, you will see NUMEROUS rail tracks stuck alongside the highway, (in California it's FREEWAY). Two tracks, periodical traffic signals.
The trains that run down those tracks are those of BNSF (Burlington Northern Santa Fe, they're hansomely painted orange with yellow BNSF letters, but the paint looks readily chipped off)
Also of those owned by Santa Fe itself. Most of the trains you may see out in that desert area carry double-stacked containers and truck trailers.
I thought railroad traffic would be scanty in that area, but within 10 minutes, my dad and I spotted around 4 trains, each having a minimum of 60 cars. The locomotive count ranged from 3 to 8.
I've also seen some locomotives plainly painted green, and the yellow and blue Santa Fe locomotives look VERY MUCH SIMILAR to those of the GP40PH-2's used in NJ TRANSIT's revenue service.
1) Can anyone tell me what those green locomotives' owners are?
2) Also, how are those Santa Fe locomotives related to the GP-40-PH-2's?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
[My commitment to my parents who made the plane trip to the West Coast possible!]
Railfan Pete.
(1) Burlington Northern Railroad bought Santa Fe Railway in 1996, after the merger Burlington Northern (owner of the Green-and-White locos) was renamed to become "Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp." BN itself was formed of the merger of Chicago, Burlington and Quincy, the Northern Pacific, the Great Northern and the Seattle, Portland and Spokane RR. The management of the Santa Fe Railway (led by Bob Krebs) took over the helm at the merged BNSF -- sometimes known as the Big New Santa Fe.
(2) The Santa Fe owns a number of cowl units (ones which look like the NJTransit "carbody" locomotives). If we are thinking about the same thing, you were lucky to see those, because BNSF has sold most of its cowl fleet to other operators. The cowl fleet were mostly ex-ATSF, and some cowl F-45's went to Wisconsin Central; I don't remember who most of the F-40's went to. These cowl locomotives don't have HEP, despite their passenger-like appearance.
Corrections welcome. I know there will be mistakes in what I have just posted.
Several general questions:
1) What are cowl units?
2) What are HEP generators?
(I know they're used on NJT's SW1500's)
3) What is a general description of "HEAD-END power"? (This is found on NJT's F40-PH-2-CAT's)
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Cowl units: see F-45 under http://www.lexcie.zetnet.co.uk/tops-wc.htm
HEP generators -- HEP stands for Head End Power. They are not usually found on switchers, only on passenger locomotives. It is the electricity used for heating, cooling, cooking, lighting on the coaching stock. It's usually a 600V AC (?) line coming from the locomotive. Of course, you can also hook coaching stock up to shore supplies.
Pete, for some photos of the Big Nothing Stinky Feet line between Needles, California and Williams, Arizona (most of the shots were taken just outside Kingman, where my older daughter and her family live), as well as a few of the Grand Canyon Railway, go to Anon_e_mouse's Home Page and follow the link to Arizona - March 2001. You'll find a range of paint schemes and locomotive types... I'm no expert, but some I've ID'd from rosters published elsewhere on the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On our trip back to Los Angeles, along I-15, we stopped by a MAJOR rail yard known as the "BARSTOW CLASSIFICATION YARD" in Barstow, California.
That was a BIG yard! I got to see freights up close, and a LOT of railbox cars, tanks, poultry cars, and flatbeds with containers and truck trqilers.
This yard has grade crossings but of course, there are no lights, bells, barriers, or even an INDICATION of a railroad crossing.
I got to meet Ralph Hunt with my dad, who is the engineer (office worker) strictly in charge of controlling locomotives in that yard, I also saw inside some office rooms, and instantly, after seeing those papers and computers, that this was hi-tech business.
On our way out is a table in a room outside the offices, and there was a landscape version of the TRACK MAP of the entire yard.
BOY it was complicated!
The traffic control tower there was cool, and I got many pictures taken.
A big blue building there marked the "Locomotive Maintenance and Inspection" building, working 24/7 on locomotives,
and I was lucky enough to see a person next to a long set of freight cars, and SEPARATING the cars into sets or single units, After they were disconnected, the railcars (by themselves) rolled down a downhill grade to the yard, and I could hear the characteristic scraping of the brakes and the wheels against the tracks.
1) How does the car separating thing work?
2) What are "yard leads"?
I'll have more questions later when I can think of them.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Classification yards ... yeah, big magic. Selkirk is one in upstate New York. Basically, you have gravity-fed leads with "spoilers" (spring loaded track sections which act as brakes for "free cars" to control their speed into a forced consist) and a computer that reads the car number, queries a database as to what's on the bill of lading and where it gets delivered to, and an automatic swicthing system that humps cars and diverts individual cars based on their destination.
Santa Fe was one of several railroads that automated car-knocking with this method and it works reasonably well ... *IF* the computer can read the car's bar code and properly query the database. :)
That is to a Railfan who has spent most of his whole 30-40 years of life on working with trains, but to a 14 1/2 year old who is just beginning the railfan process is a big thing.
Where is the yard in Selkirk, NY?
I think SubTalkers should see those rail yards out west instead of being stuck with trains that operate within the NorthEast section of the U.S.
There's a LOT more out there folks.
: )
Railfan Pete.
That is to a Railfan who has spent most of his whole 30-40 years of life on working with trains, but to a 14 1/2 year old who is just beginning the railfan process is a big thing.
Where is the yard in Selkirk, NY?
I think SubTalkers should see those rail yards out west instead of being stuck with trains that operate within the NorthEast section of the U.S.
There's a LOT more out there folks.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Yep ... there's plenty of action elsewhere than any of us live.
And STOP taking my name in vein, or I'll sig Pigs, Jersey Mike, train Dude Steve 8th Ave Exp, Sea Beach Fred and others on you you who will taunt you a second time. :)
Don't PHUCK with me. Heh.
Where DID I use your name in vain? You made it up. It isn't a governmental or an official thing to the world. There are also a lot of INTERNATIONAL railroads out in Europe and Asia, (many cars manufactured by Bombardier) and if you worked for Bombardier, you would stress "STOP USING MY NAME IN VAIN" more rather than working at a Selkirk yard in the NE area of the US.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Busting chops, bro ... and besides, Bombardier est tres cher dans les upstateurs ... Montreal is a LOT closer to use than NYC. But "to SelkirkTMO?" Mon nom de plume dans le lampes electrique? Je me souvienes. :)
?????
Bombardier is very dear under the upstaters? My name of smoke under the electric lamps?????
My French is really too bad to understand this stuff...
No, you got it JUST right ... I grew up in da shitty ... creating international incidents is a cultural necessity as an UH-merican. Kwest-kwe-cessed-noodly ... murdering other languages is part of the culture here ... after all, "Je me souviens" as we all know means, "GIVE ME SOUVENIRS" ... heh.
Never take life too seriously, and BEWARE of those who do. :)
Well JOKE ya then ... heh. Selkirk yards are about 6 miles south of Smallbany (our esteemed state capit-hole) in the Town of Bethlehem (remember us at X-mas time) ... also known as EXIT 22 on da TRUWAY ... grab a map, look for Selkirk and it's an exit ... check a RAILROAD MAP at the CSX site and you can get a beam on it ...
Where is the yard in Selkirk, NY?
Well Selkirk is a small town and the yard is pretty huge. I think the better question would be "Where in the yard is Selkirk?"
I think SubTalkers should see those rail yards out west instead of being stuck with trains that operate within the NorthEast section of the U.S.
Um, no. The NE has a MUCH MUCH higher concentration of railroads than the west does. The former PRR yards in Enola and Conway were the largest in the world at one point. Enola has been downgraded due to traffic shifts, but Conway is pretty damn huge.
I prefer Eastern roading ver western railroading. Western RRing is mostly unit trains going from California to the East or some mine to the East over a handful of uninteresting mailine routes. In the East we have a large variety of trains traveling over a spiderweb of route and usually with passenger trains mixed into it.
Well Selkirk is a small town and the yard is pretty huge. I think the better question would be "Where in the yard is Selkirk?"
Yo, Joisey boy ... us city folk put up with plenty but I'll let you know that Selkirk is a humming little town ... you know how Joisey status is, ("WHAT EXIT?!?!?") ... Selkirk is EXIT 22 on the Troooway... since we have an actual EXIT, we ARE somebody. Now snuff it, boy ... heh.
Bustini, bustini ... and the trains DO run ON TIME from OUR little bumpkin neck of the woods ... and most of OUR departures are between 3 am and 5 am ... with LOTS of unprotected grade crossings. Can you say TWO LONG, ONE SHORT, ONE LONG, for EACH cul de sac at 3AM? NJT ain't got the STONES to honk like WE DO in the middle of the night. Frrrp. :)
Selkirk is EXIT 22 on the Troooway... since we have an actual EXIT, we ARE somebody. Now snuff it, boy ... heh.
What city or town DOESN't have an exit at a "Trooway" as you call it? I know many freeways and highways that have exits for SEPARATE STREETS AND AVENUES.
NJT ain't got the STONES to honk like WE DO in the middle of the night. Frrrp. :)
That's because NJT doesn't operate in the middle of the night. The only train you'll see in the hour of 3AM is the late night train down to Bay Head with MANY GRADE CROSSINGS THERE. And THINK about how rural those cities down the NORTH JERSEY COAST LINE are. Those towns become quiet shortly after 10PM.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Heh. The TROOWAY gets mighty persnickety about what rates as an exit north of Rockland county. To GET an exit up here, you have to have more than TWO COWS or you're nobody. :)) [doublechin]
Barstow yard is California is so impressive because of the southland's topography -- what the rivers and bays are to NYC, the mountain ranges are to SoCal as far as impeding traffic. Barstow is where the tracks split off going south to L.A. through the Cahone Pass, the only section low enough to get all those rail lines through from Victorville to San Bernadino (God bless the San Andreas fault for creating it), while other lines head west from there to Edwards AFB, the high desert of northern Los Angeles County (Palmdale, Lancaster) and Bakersfield and the inland central valley sections of California (the other route north to S.F. hugs the coastline, and their is a zig-zaggy route from L.A. to Palmdale-Lancaster that MetroLink uses which follows the Sierra Highway through Santa Clarita).
Coming east out of Barstow, the mainline BNSF goes to Needles and Kingman, Ariz. while the other line splits off to Las Vegas, pretty much following the path of I-15. Barstow's the natural meeting point for all the lines.
Where is the yard in Selkirk, NY?
I get the feeling that we had this discussion in a thread that got deleted...
Remember "Where is SelkirkTMO?"
Lexcie
When was this? The only reason why threads are deleted are SELF-EXPLANATORY.
The question "Where is SelkirkTMO?" doesn't ring a bell, but it explodes a bomb that is silenced because some content was not acceptable or the thread got out of hand.
I have a CONRAIL calendar I bought at last year's Hoboken Terminal, and I have seen many photos of trains from Selkirk yard.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I was lost but now I'm found ... AGAIN ... watch the flashing blue lights, no yellow lights, stand on steady green light, we're going to see the prezzy-dent, no flashes, please ...
If you think I'm going to stand for another mass extiction event, you've got another thing coming, moo ...
a person next to a long set of freight cars, and SEPARATING the cars into sets or single units
I believe this is called humping. Big trains are broken down into different cuts of cars because the cars are going to different destinations. Trains are then assembled later for sending out to the next yard. It is this process that makes boxcar service slow and unit train service fast, reliable and lucrative.
You really need to go out and have a look at the operations out west -- this kinda stuff happens all over the system, not just on Santa Fe. I suggest a few locations: Selkirk, NY; Elkhart, IN; Altoona, PA; Cicero, IL; umm and I am desparately trying to think of a location in Ohio but I can't think of one. There used to be a big yard in Crestline, OH, but I think that is no more...
Thanks Guys for your imput on places to live, does anyone know much about Lafrak City in Rego Park. My grandmother and aunt used to live in Rego Pk, but that was 35 years ago. Thanks
I'm going to Framingham MA to watch freight action on Monday. If anyone else wants to come, they should email me at lu@felsted.essex.sch.uk by midnight EDT on Sunday. I'm Boston based, and I will get there using commuter rail.
Lexcie
"Freight action?" To steal a phrase from "The Blues Brothers," "How often do the trains come by?" "So often you won't notice." ... such is life on the Chicago line here north of Selkirk ... eventually any railfan gets pythed off at "2 long, one short, one long" at 4am and reaches for their *GUN* ... :)
Bright blessings, happy railfanning ... locked and loaded. heh.
The latest issue of the Tripperhas a small picture of BERA's Standard 2775, which is referred to as being "inoperative".
Is 2775 inoperative because it has not been restored and is minus a trolley pole, or are there major components missing and it cannot be restored?
#2775 which was a "B" unit has been rewired back to a "A" unit. The blind end has a controller and brake stand. I asume is was tested, but no proof to this.
I was told that the guy who was busy making #2775 move again was given an ultimatum by his wife. It's me or that subway car. That's the scuttlebutt I heard, maybe Jeff H. may now something.
However, the salt air at East Haven has taken it's toll on #2775 and there is some body rot that would make a Redbird jealous. Back in 1980 when #2775 was being redied for the trip to Branford, I was told that when the old RCI car #2205 was scrapped, transverse seats and a motorman cab was salvaged for #2775.
Bill "Newkirk"
BERA makes no provision for stabilizing or restoring cars once they get there and holds no one else responsible for doing so. It has no endowment and no permanent car barns. 2775's story is typical.
BERA makes no provision for stabilizing or restoring cars once they get there and holds no one else responsible for doing so. It has no endowment and no permanent car barns. 2775's story is typical.
I don't claim to be an expert, as I only visted there once. They seem to be doing the best they can with limited funds. If they had some secret leverage and were getting cars that would otherwise go to museums that had larger facilities, then I could see your point. But they're taking cars that are, for the most part, unwanted by others. And they have a large operable fleet. Of course, there are varying degrees of "operable", from "fine for tourists to ride without problems" to "if you don't mind no seats, it can get out of the barn under its own power".
For anyone who doesn't know, we're not talking about cars sitting outside in salt marshes here - there are barns with corrugated siding and roofing, and doors. They're not completely watertight, but they are a far cry from being outside. The major problem seemed to be that they are on low ground and suffer occasional flooding.
Some cars are projects of particular individuals, while others are group efforts. That may or may not be the best way of doing things - I'm not in a position to judge. If it means that a car gets at least some work instead of just sitting, I think that's good, overall.
Getting a car back to operating under its own power can be a huge undertaking. Getting it into acceptable cosmetic condition is even more work. To take an extreme example, look at the Mineola. It probably needs a quarter million dollars (donated cost) *just* for the woodwork.
If you don't like the way things are done there, I'd suggest contributing. Money is always needed, and you get to say where you want it spent (if you have a preference). Likewise for volunteering. I have more available money than time, so I gave money. I won't go into the details here, but it should suffice to say that it was evidence that I think they're doing good things there and they deserve my support (and the support of others).
Terry, thanks for the positive comments!
Ray was, in fact, very active at the museum in a previous generation.
His issues are valid and I agree with them, although not the overall
outlook or conclusions he draws therefrom. They are issues which
are found in just about every railway museum in this country.
Although it is unfortunate that a car has to deteriorate in
outdoor storage, as you astutely pointed out, the alternative would
have been for the car to go to the scrapper. At least this way
some of the historical record which is inherent in the car is
preserved for future generations to study.
Of the almost 100 cars in their collection about a barns worth are outside, several were bagged, this leaves a few, incl. the Standard & the SIRT cars in the rain. However 6 more operate several times a year (R-17, R-9, Lo-V, Hi-V, BU El & H&M). Several others could operate with a little TLC. Several trolleys, including our New Orleanes 850 are being worked on, several of the MOW cars are/had recent TLC & a couple of the subway cars have folks working on them.
There is even some interest building in our small bus fleet.
As others have said all it takes is money & desire ... hint hint.
This writer will be going up this Sunday, but to operate, something else a museum like ours needs.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Bill!
I seem to remember reading somewhere that 2775 was one end car of a very unusual three car "B" set. the other end car was 2774, and the middle car was 2899. If this was true, it was certainly a very unusual lashup. With the exception of the 4000 series (BX sets) cars the "B" sets were normally cars lashed together in numerical order, i.e. 2393-2394-2395.
It's good to know that there is a chance that 2775 might still be restored.
I'll have to go to my source notes, but my recollection is that the lashup was 2899-2774-2775 in that order.
Of course 2899 was the odd car out when the 2800 series was made up into B units. 2899 was also the only 2800 series car to be GOH c.1960.
No, 2775 has little to do with marital issues :)
In retrospect, it was the wrong car to get. It would have been
better to acquire one of the 2300s because they were not modified
by the TA in the 1950s, unlike most of the other standards.
All evidence suggests 2775 was delivered as a double-end car but
did not enter service that way and was placed into a 3-car set
shortly after delivery.
We have all of the components to restore the car to single unit
status except some of the trim moldings for the 2nd cab. However,
at this point there is no work planned on the car.
2775 came to us in the early 1980s in one of several purges at
the TA. Originally, two complete 3-car sets of ABs were preserved,
one modernized set (2775-2774-2899) and one unmodernized. The latter
is down at Coney Island where one of the cars is evidently operable.
The modernized set was broken up and 2775 came to Branford.
It was in poor condition when it arrived because it was stored in
a location where it was exposed to runoff water. 20 years of
outdoor storage subsequently have not helped the condition although
some stabilization work has been done.
Now, to answer the original question: The car did run when it
first came up, sort of. When the TA modernized it, they put in
an MCM type switchgroup similar to what was under the R22s. This
was, frankly, a piece of crap. Some folks at the museum, before
my time, got it running by jumping out certain contactors. Since
then the motors have been flooded and other maladies suffered so
it is not currently operable although there is no particular reason
why it could not be repaired. In fact, I personally know how
to make it run, but my efforts now are focused largely on what will
ultimately be more important for the car: building additional
carhouses!
It just dawned on me that 2775 is the only Pressed Steel BMT Standard to survive. A pity an unrebuilt 2800 couldn't have been saved. They were the last unrebuilt cars to face the torch.
I can think of 2 originally saved 3-car sets: 2899-2774-2775 amd 2390-1-2. What was the third?
Those are the two sets. 2899 and 2774 are no more.
Oh, right. I relooked at your post. For some reason I thought you said THREE 3-car sets.
I want to thank everyone for their input to my question about 2775.
Back in 1955 a friend gave me a list of what Standards were assigned where at that time. I still have that list. Footnotes show the following information.
1 A- a single motor car (2600-2749) 2399 & 2500 are also A cars
2 B- a set of three motor cars semi-permanently coupled in numerical order (2381-2382-2383) Exception is 2774-2899-2775 which is considered a B set
3 BX-a set of two motor cars semi-permanently coupled with a trailer in between (2414-4007-2415)
I thought this list was accurate until 1959 when the BMT started to rebuild the Standards, and scrapped the 4000 series trailers. The numbering system went out the window. In some cases the trailer was replaced by a 2600 series A car, and I guess that the former BX set became a B set. Some of the 2400 series were put together as two car sets, and were marked as BT.
Based on Paul and Jeff's comments there is a difference of opinion as to the order of the cars in the exceptional B set. Was it 2774-2899-2775 or was it 2775-2774-2899?
I guess we will never know for sure!
OK, I went to the videotape (so to speak).
It was 2899-2774-2775. That's based on field observation, despite the fact that I have a TA fleet roster which shows 2899 in the middle. I lean to the former.
As to the numbering of 2400 series B and BT units, the numbering didn't quite go out the window, but it was a little strange.
The first new B unit was 2400-2615-2401. then it went up sequentially to 2466-2649-2467. Then BTs were 2468-2469 thru 2498-2499.
As a very young railfan, I can say that 2899 was not in the middle of 2774/75, it was on the end as a control/motormans car. I remember riding it once too and the first time I saw it, I said to myself: "Self, I never saw or rode a 2800 series car before". But my memory escapes me on this one: I remember the 2600 car sandwiched between the 2400 cars, but I don't remember the 2400's in two's (2468/69 thru 2498/99) at all. Any oldtimers here remember how these cars were put into the 6 car Eastern Divison consists or were they taken o/s when the others were transfered? Did these upper 2400 series cars have conductor controls after rebuilding? I remember on the Canarsie line, the conductor was always in the second car facing Canarsie (the 2600 car) or if that section was a 3 car group of single cars, he was still in the same position.
Another vote for 2899-2774-2775. This is the way I remember it. Especially the oddity that 2899 was in the low number rather than higher number slot.
The ABs were assigned Eastern Division-Southern Division, although this shifted over time. The BT units (2-car ex-BXs) could run the Eastern Division as they ran up to 8 car consists, but I don't recall if the BTs were used there. IIRC, the BTs did not have conductor controls.
A good guess is that BTs were never in 6-car consists unless somebody screwed up. They were perfect for making up 8-car trains on the Southern Division with 2 B-units.
The TA was probably glad to get rid of the BXs, because you could never have 2 BX units in a train.
Huh? If the train is a six car consist, couldn't you run 3 BX units in one train? Why must there be a B in every train?
A BX-unit was three cars--two motors and a trailer in between. No train was to be made up with more than one BX unit (i.e., more than one trailer) because it would be underpowered. The make or break point was the northbound H track approaching the Manhattan Bridge. A train with two trailers was not supposed to be capable of making that grade.
It woul dhave been a case of everybody out and push!
I remember being told that a train of two BX's could not even make the Williamsburg Bridge grade.
I never ever saw a BX operating as a three car train. All three car trains were either three A's or a B set of three cars. Even a three car Train of A's was rare, but it did happen on occasion. The B's were obviously the workhorses, and the A's and BX's were rested during the off peak hours.
You should have seen #5016 trying to make this climb last Thursday-it was a Death March. Steve B - EVERYBODY OUT AND PUSH! This "W" stood for WEAK AND WEARY.
wayne
Did you find yourself thinking, "You can do it, you can do it, come on, come on."?
Every single Standard was built with door control panels. Cars 1 & 3 of all B's annd BX sets had their panels deactivated when the three car sets were created. The panels were still there but they would not work. Repainting over the years made these deactivated door panels look pretty sad because they repainted everything including the buttons.
It is my recollection that the 4000 series trailers even had door control panels, which were used when the 4000 trailer was the fifth car in a six car train. The conductors position was normally in the fifth car of a six car train. Do I remember correctly?
The 4000 trailers did have active door controls. I don't recall the conductor position on 6 car trains. 8 car trains had 2 conductors until the 50's.
Someone mentioned a few posts back that on the Canarsie line, the conductor would be in the second car from the Canarsie-bound end. That may explain why I never saw the conductor anywhere near a door button console during the two years I rode on the BMT standards. I never rode in the second car on a Brooklyn-bound train.
"my efforts now are focused largely on what will
ultimately be more important for the car: building additional
carhouses!"
What is the situation with carbarns there at Branford? I was under the impression that you guys had virtually run out of space, and that it would be practically impossible to build more barns. Of course, there are certainly some outside yard tracks. Are you planning to build any new barns in the immediate future?
We could build one next to barn #2.
It would also be nice to expand the loop so that the subway cars have an easier time going around (the R-9 can't, the others can very slowly), but the swamp is right there.
Mr t__:^)
We don't have IRM's luxury of being surrounded by
nothing (no offense to the cornfields). However, there is
additional land contiguous with our existing yard area.
It is rocky and undulating. We are currently engineering
our next building to be constructed in that area which will
obviously mean greater costs for site preparation. We also have
coastal and inland wetlands issues to deal with. At least this
lot is mostly above flood plain elevation.
P.S. to Jeff's comments & more info for Ray ...
There has been a recent effort to raise the tracks in the barns so that it is more unlikely that our girls get their feet wet.
This work isn't complete, and it won't help too much in a Hurricane, but it does reduce the risk ... this Spring I saw our curator spending the better part of a day drying out the shop (the shop is on a concrete foundation so can't easily be raised without great expense).
Mr t__:^)
How about the door conrols on 2775? It wouldn't be that difficult to reactivate them, would it?
Allegedly we have both the single-unit conductor panel and
the MUDC panel in stock somewhere. I'm not sure if, when
I'm old and gray and finally getting around to wiring them up,
I would want to remove the MUDC wiring or not. It is highly
unlikely that we'd ever have another AB to run with!
Considering that there are only five BMT standards in existance, you're probably right. Unless 2204 is ever forced to find a new home.
You never can tell ... if they get the other 3 operational, the fourth may be declaired surplus ... they do have a space problem at Court Street.
Mr t__:^)
Just Checking.Which day Was the Union Square Crash ?
August 27 1991
August 28 1991
or
August 29 1991
August 28 1991, the day before my birthday.
Happy upcoming birthday. Mine's the day after yours. (Well, no, I wasn't born in 1991.)
Well, no, I wasn't born in 1991
I don't think he's 10 either.
Ageism alert!
Thanks, and same to you. And Pig is right, I'll be 20. Like MTV, I'm live and almost legal.
Yesterday I was at the Whitney Museum, where I saw a painting by Reginald Marsh, 1930, entitled, "Why Not Use the "L"?"
It's a painting of the inside of an el car, presumably of that era. There are 2 passengers, one sleeping man and one awake woman, on wicker seats. The car has 4 horizontal bars accross a half window. On the upper half of where the rest of the window would be, there's a poster apparently from the El operators, that reads as follows:
The Subway is fast - Certainly!
But the Open Air Elevated
gets you there quickly, too
-- and with more comfort.
Why Not Use the "L"?
The old metal destination sign reads - East-180.
While this was a charming painting, I also found it curious for several reasons. This must be what is now the 2/5 line, which used to be hooked up to the Third and Second Ave. els. But weren't they all owned by the IRT? Which ran subways as well. So why would the IRT be dissing the subways?
Also, I always thought New Yorkers used the spelling "El", not L, for elevated. Guess I was wrong.
NY uses "El". Chicago uses "L".
That's waht I thought -- but apparently in 1930 the El company in NY used "L".
I don't think so. Perhaps the artist took a few liberties.
Perhaps. But the rest of the painting is extremely realistic.
No subway in Chicago until 1943. How about Boston?
Boston's first elevated line ran in 1901, the ancestor of today's Orange Line, from Sullivan Square to Dudley Street. The first Boston subway opened in 1897 and is still very much alive today as the Green Line central subway. Even though this route was the only Boston line that was a conventional steel structure elevated train - similar to New York, Chicago, and Philadelphia - the entire Boston system was known as the Boston Elevated Railway Company (Boston El for short)until 1947 when the system became publicly owned (first as MTA, then as MBTA since 1964). None of the original 1901 elevated structures remain. To traverse downtown Boston the elevated trains used two tracks of today's Green Line subway originally, and then in 1908 switched to the Washington Street subway, still in use today as part of the Orange Line (from Haymarket to Downtown Crossing).
Bill Johnston has sent me some of his own photos of the "reefing" of the redbirds from last week. They're not real detailed, but they make a nice addition to the site. Check them out at:
Redbird Reef
-Dave
Dave P,
Sorry to see that these photos are far away. I acquired some shots from a NJ newspaper photographer when the Class K (MP-51) car were being sunk. He was much closer. Did they prohibit anyone in a boat from getting to close, perhaps to swipe a number board before the Redbird get sunk !
Bill "Newkirk"
I think the AP shots you saw in the papers were from the same vantage point - just better zoom lenses.
Why are they so small? Were the outer portions of the pictures cropped?
Don't know, I didn't scan them. I suspect that Bill's camera didn't have much of a zoom.
I borrowed a friend's camera which had a minimal zoom lens. Our vantage point was on a chartered ferry (VIPs and the Press, I begged my way aboard) about one mile distant. Only Coast Guard boats were closer. Most of the photos are cropped. You're missing lots of sky and sea.
Here are some sites with other pics:
Local TV station (still photos only) http://www.wboc.com/news/local/cover.cfm?loader=14452
Live video (in French)
http://www-compat.tf1.fr/videojt//videoaout01/jt20d23081/html/jt20d23081r14.htm
also covered by Manhattan Cable's Metro channel program, "Subway Q and A" (I introduced them to nycsubway.org and SubTalk)
Lots of local papers covered the story but I haven't found any online photos from these.
On August 24, I took both the Q and W trains from Lexington Ave to Stillwell Ave. Okay, the two trains that I rode had the normal assignment [Q Local (144 R-68) and W (180 R-68A and 8 R-68)]. From a past posting there was talk on the car assignments not exactly set to stone, especially on the Broadway Express trains. That day the W's had their normal consist, but it seemed that the Q local had more R-68A's than I thought. It also seemed that they had about half of the lines fleet with them. The N had its usual consist with a mixed bag, but most of the trains were R-32's with a train of R-40 slants and 1 R-68 train. The diamond Q's had its usual R-40 slants. Also I noticed that the R-68A's now have new destination roll signs installed along with all of the R-68's even on the B/D lines. I also notice that the R-68's on the Q have both the cars that used to operate on the N (2780 to 2915) and the upper numbers that were on the D (I believe 2680 to 2779). If you ride the Q diamond (especially along the Brighton line), you can barely see the route letter in the end window. Although you can see the N letter on the end from a farther point at Stillwell Ave. The F train cars are still R-46's. Anyone have any answers for this? If so, thanks.
I think you can see R68As pop up anywhere. This weekend, there are atleast 2 train sets of R68As on the Q Local. The lower number R68s are on the B/D and the upper numbers are in Brooklyn scattered through out. All R68s and R68As got new destination roll curtains.
To R68A 5200, thanks for your answer. Can anyone else give me input?
What exactly do you want to know?
To fortify R68A 5200's answer on these R-68/68A assignments and others for Coney Island yard assignments, are these original TA's assignments stone or not, and what abouut the others (R-32,40-S,46,etc). I know that the 46's are solely the F cars, but what about the older ones, are they floating around each line like the 68/68A's. Like until 1997 when the Q had both, except most were the 68A's I was wondering if the Q local will have this again. Does anyone if the West End Line will get all of the R-40's back, and will the N get all of the R-32's for its cars? Just curious.
The West End line will get the slants back when/if the TA decides to do it. Same goes for all R32's on the N with this addendum: CIYD does not currently have sufficient R32's for solid N service. Should that ever happen, The TA would have to get them from Jamaica (primarily run on the E) and Pitkin (primarily run on the C) and send other models to replace them to those specific yards.
Yesterday was a memorable day for me being part of the last day of service of the NCS PCCs. The weather was warm and sunny, the foamers were evident!! Car #6 painted in Public Service colors was in attendance for everyone to see. Also note that the rock shield was removed and car #6 looked a normal PCC. A vintage Johnson farebox added the final touch. The interior wasn't restored, just the exterior which is fine by me.
The festivities at Branch Brook Park (nee Franklin Ave) station was much like all other NJ TRansit celebrations. Plenty of give outs, shirts, hats and other memorabilia for sale. And of course the usual band playing the usual tunes heard at these celebrations. Let's not forget the speeches by dignitaries!
Well, after 2pm when the party died down, that left a few hours of photographing and videographing they very last day of these we maintained veterans from the Twin Cities. Later in the day, concession tables were set up with all the goodies not sold at Branch Brook Park. A suitable for framing certificate noting the retirement of the NCS PCC were given to railfans and commuters alike. NJ Transit knows how to market a celebration as in years past.
I rode car #6, the 7:45pm car from Branch Brook Park. The last revenue PCC in service. We stopped at most stations though briefly though no one got on. Every seat was taken and it was standing room only. It was ironic, that on this very date in 1984, I was riding the last Lackawanna MU to depart Hoboken Terminal. We passed the ROW numerous times last night. The atmosphere was a mix a celebration and sadness. After we passed Broad St. station, someone up front yelled to the crowd for a round of applause for our car operator and for 47 years of PCC service. The first time applause was heard in a PCC ? When we arrived at Penn Station,a photo line of camera flashes and videotaping recorded the historic event.
And now the finale, custom made for railfans ! From 8pm to 10PM, there was numerous "last rides" on the line. Accommodating up to 50 per car, at least someone had the chance to ride the last PCC. No stops, no photostops, just express to Branch Brook Park and back again. I rode two round trips, but being exhausted from the heat and excitement, i called it a night at 9:15PM. The last rides were great. Running express but slowing down for deserted stations beeping the PCC horn and clanging the gong. The first trip, that PCC flew !
And now the morning of August 27th will see a dawn of a new era when the LRVs provide service. It won't be the same, but it's nice to hear that these cars won't be scrapped, but seen that they are given proper homes in "Hertiage" trolley operations. Three cars are going to Philipsburg,NJ and some may go to a "Heritage" line on Washington st. in Hoboken, if that becomes reality.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for a well written and interesting post. Family vacation kept me away from "the end" but a number of evenings in previous weeks were spent aboard those fine PCCs. You know you are old when you also rode the same line during the last week of "regular trolley cars" before the forthcoming "PCC invasion"! Time marches on in nice ways on rare occasions, such as this one, and yours truly looks forward to following the careers of those fine cars. Many of them probably haven't reached the middle of thier lives yet. Let's hope so!
Yeah, but Heritage operations aren't the same. Where else could you hang out the back window as the PCC car blasted along a private RoW. I am so sorry that I only ever got to ride the cars once and that my camera died. Oh well, if I was going to pick a day it might as well be the last day. The party atmosphere was electric. I should have taken a second round trip :)
Hey look. They brought back the Budd RDC cars down in cape may. Maybe somewhere you'll see a line Built for the PCC's. Something that is long enough so you'd appriciate the ride. Like the CNJ Southern Division or maybe the old CNJ main out of Philipsburg. Easton-Phillipsburg Light Rail!
I have to agree with Jersey Mike. The high speeds were so cool, and the open back window is the best! On one of my "last revenue runs" the operator was blowing the horn and flying through the stations the whole way (most of the stations were empty anyway). It was sad that it was the last day of the PCC cars, but boy was it a fun day!
-Jon
I was also told car #6 would be the last revenue service train and
left Branch Brook Park 2 trains before the 6 to get a shot of the last
train entering Penn. But another PCC came from behind discharging
passengers. Was that a non revenue service? Overall, the mood was so
relaxed, I would not be surprised if a non revenue train picked up
the remaining crowd at BBP.
I rode the first farewell #6 roundtrip right after that.
It was funny how whenever the 6 shows up, the buffs would shout
"It's the 6! It's the 6!" and lots of flashes "papparazzi" style.
Well, of course I gave my dose of flashes as well.
One guy at the arriving platform in Penn Stn. was directing all the
"photographers" to shoot from one spot so everyone can get a
clean shot.
I heard NJT will keep some of the cars. How are they going to turn
around the trains on the North end, if they destroy the loop?
Did they change their mind and decided to keep the loop at BBP?
Or build another one at the new terminal? Certainly cheaper than to
make the cars double-ended.
Anyway, I had a lot of fun.
The new cars are already double-ended, whether you like it or not.
Double-ended cars might cost more (not really, is a cab so expensive?), but it is made up for in versatility. Currently if part of the line is screwed up, they can't turn around at an intermediate point, service has to be completely disrupted.
I was talking about the to-be-preserved PCCs.
Without a loop or a wye, they won't be able to turn back.
Another reply mentioned that the new yard has a loop.
Thanks anyway.
There is a loop at the new maintenance shop. The problem is the signal system.
Mike Klufas of NJT has stated that the new cars will be able to loop
at Penn Station, He says the LRV's can make the tight radius. I want
to see it to beleive it! Must be the articulation aspect that gives them the ability to make it around.
Chuck Greene
The other loop is around the new shops.
Ah.. Thanks. Then it makes sense to preserve the PCCs.
If they can take the HBLR curve s. of Harsimus Cove (looks like no more than 90 ft radius) then they can do the loop at the south end of the Newark Subway. The one at the north end - the curve coming into Branch Brook Park station - is tighter still.
wayne
Well managed to do a little railfanning today to and from Chinatown. Going I took the 7 to 74th street, and got on a Manhattan bound R sitting in the station. An E was in front of us so we sat for a few seconds. All in all a very slow ride. Everything ran on the local to 36th. Still managed to get a good view, the cab door was propped open and I could see the speedometer was broken (this was an R46).
The Broadway line gets bottom yellow at Lexington avenue (well the homeball is just after the station). I was suprised that even though most people (I would think) know the 63rd street tunnel exists, they seemed confused as ever. Lots of door holding and confusion at Lexington when people found out they couldn't transfer to the 6.
At 42nd I got off and took the Q to Canal street. On the other side of the station I saw an N (R32's) coming in. Now there are G.O. signs posted about no N between Canal and Dekalb, but it appeared N's were running over the bridge. The G.O. poster I saw at Canal did not say this.
Later on I was at Lexington/63rd again after a bite at Wendy's, and waited for the E. There was an R sitting in the station, then it left, then sat again at the homeball. It was the same R train of R46's I was on before, because the LCD signs were out on the first couple of cars. It finally gets the signal and completely pulls out of the station. There was an F waiting in behind that R. And behind the F an R32 E train. It took a few minutes to get the doors closed (yep more door holding). The ride to WTC was pretty fast, actually there are some deep dives between 34th,23rd and 14th. And we just wents traight after W4th to WTC. Going back wasn't as fast. We had red signals just before W4th, they let an F in front of us. There was congestion the whole way, and it was pretty slow. At 34th I saw a D train in the station with the green anti-holding lights on, but red signal. On Queens Blvd once out of the connector we ran local also, and I could see flashing ambers on the express tracks (track worker lights). It took 45 minutes to get from WTC to Roosevelt avenue, almost a whole hour to Flushing. I wonder why they are running all three E,F,R lines this weekend?
Can anyone advise the Operational Freq. this train will be using tomorrow also the SBK Freq.? Did they get permission to run over NYCH tracks? Any info will be helpful and to everyone onboard tomorrow ENJOY!
The continued fight by Astoria's "representatives" over the extension, or even presence, of the Astoria line has given me an idea.
As some of you know, I have advocated shrinking the subway to a small "hub" system in the overnight hours, replacing trains with buses via transfer to outlying routes, to save money. Well, if things keep going, the TA is going to need to save some series money, and soon. The top poltitical choice is to stop buying parts for TrainDude to maintain the trains, yet again. I have another idea.
Let's shut down the Astoria El from 11 p.m. to 6 a.m., in deference to the "community," especially if Vallone is elected. It could be "mitigation" for a LaGuardia extension if he is not elected.
Before doing so, the TA could hold a series of public hearings on the noise from elevated trains in all the neighborhoods where they are present. The TA would make sure awareness of hearings was high in senior citizen centers and among civil servants who drive to work. Then, in deference to the "community," it could shut down all the elevated lines in the overnight hours, replacing them with buses.
When the inevitable backlash set in among those who never show up to challenge the NIMBY nuts, the TA could compromise by retaining service along the busiest lines.
The els were there before any of the complainers moved in. They should have stayed away.
You missed his point. He meant that only the people who complain will speak out, he suggests giving an option they will jump at that will obviously piss off so many people that el supporters would be forced to take action.
I agree, that's the point. The els were there FIRST. Stop compaining
people, it is valuable infrastructure !!
It is a valuable infrastructure, and the els were there first, but they are still noisy, and this is a situation that can be fixed. With Money.
You could either wrap the whole structure in $100 bills to deaden the sound, or you could encase the structure with new concrete stanchions and trackways, and include soundproofing materials around the non-structural parts (where the raillings are now) and eliminate perhaps 90% of the noise.
Yes the trains were there first. Yes the trains provide a valuable infrastructure, but guess what.... Our people are valuable too. You repair old structures to bring them into the twenty-first century. Those els were built with 19th century technology, and while they cannot be straightened, or the curves ang gradiants eased, there is much that can and should be done to up date them.
The Sabath was made for the people, not the peole for the Sabath...
The els were made for the people..... etc etc etc.
Elias
The els were there before any of the complainers moved in. They should have stayed away.
Good point. The El has "squatters" rights.
Do people also have such "squatters" rights? Can the El be allowed into areas where people got in before the El? The El should not be allowed in such areas by your "who got there first" logic.
(The els were there before any of the complainers moved in. They should have stayed away. )
(Good point. The El has "squatters" rights.
Do people also have such "squatters" rights? Can the El be allowed into areas where people got in before the El? The El should not be allowed in such areas by your "who got there first" logic.)
You've just described the logic of the environmental review process. Therefore, nothing new should ever be built, anywhere, no matter how valuable, nor need be removed, no matter how destructive.
The extension will hurt those directly next to it, on two blocks (four blockfronts) north of Ditmars. I propose providing compensation. The added complaint that the extended line will "hurt industrial operations" on 19th Avenue is nonsense.
And as for the noise complaint, you can barely hear the trains on the next block over -- I have friends who live on 32nd Street.
I suspect that NYC's very low homeownership rates may lead to more opposition to transit projects. Figure it this way - transit projects enhance property values, which is great for homeowners but not so great for renters as rents may rise (not everyone has a rent-controlled apartment).
(I suspect that NYC's very low homeownership rates may lead to more opposition to transit projects. Figure it this way - transit projects enhance property values, which is great for homeowners but not so great for renters as rents may rise (not everyone has a rent-controlled apartment).
I think the linkage is otherwise. Politically influential people in NYC have one foot out the door. Transit investment costs up front, with benefits down the road. Down the road, the City will be full of immigrants who can't vote and young people who are now in college somewhere else.
Homeowning families have a somewhat longer time horizon.
"Politically influential people in NYC have one foot out the door."
-Interesting comment, but do you have any examples of it??
("Politically influential people in NYC have one foot out the door."
-Interesting comment, but do you have any examples of it?? )
The City has a long history of handing out goodies to existing interests, while sticking it to new people, new businesses, etc. A complete list would be exhausting, but here are a few examples:
o UNION: Super-rich pensions, just enhanced, for those hired before 1980, combined with mandatory six percent of salary contributions and lousy pensions for new hires (ie. those who will be providing services in the future. According to census data, NYC public employees living outside the city earn much more than those living in the city.
o BUSINESS: major tax breaks for large corporations that are gradually reducing NYC employment, combined with a unique unincorporated business tax on anyone opening a growing new business in the city.
o HEALTH AND EDUCATION: New York is great for the elderly, with 33 percent of the nation's Medicaid home health care expenditures and 50 percent of its Medicaid personal care (maid service, shopping service, ambulette service) expenditures. The kids? If NYC were a separate state, it's school spending would be the second lowest among states (behind Alaska).
o HOUSING: Rent regulation improves the standard of living of long time residents, but encourages the cash cowing of the housing stock. NYC subsidized housing units tend to go to insiders -- the Mitchell-Lama program, which some want to revive, is the worst example.
INFRASTRUCTURE: NYC funds about 53 percent of the maintenance needed to keep its infrastructure in good repair. In good years. No major new subway improvements in decades, despite just about the highest debt burden anywhere.
The state motto is "Excelsior" (ever upward). I think it should be changed to "Tondere Et Aufugere" (fleece and flee).
The City has a long history of handing out goodies to existing interests, while sticking it to new people, new businesses, etc. A complete list would be exhausting, but here are a few examples:
oUNION: Super-rich pensions, just enhanced, for those hired before 1980, combined with mandatory six percent of salary contributions and lousy pensions for new hires (ie. those who will be providing services in the future. According to census data, NYC public employees living outside the city earn much more than those living in the city.
This sort of dual-track pension system is not unknown in private industries, too. What seems to have happened is that many businesses have come to realize that traditional defined-benefit pensions are just too expensive in today's business environment. Nothing can be done about existing retirees and employees with vested pension rights, of course. So the businesses end up keeping benefits the same for those people while greatly reducing them for new hires and maybe for unvested employees. Hence, a two-tier pension system.
For an example of something even worse, and somewhat on-topic, consider the airlines. Some of them have two-track pay systems, under which employees hired after certain dates will always be paid less than earlier hires - for example, assume an airline instituted a two-track system in 1988. A person hired in 1990 will earn X dollars after 15 years, while someone hired in 1986 (now at 15 years) is earning 1.5X dollars. That makes two-track pension systems look mild in comparison.
I would assume that the higher pay for non-resident NYC employees as opposed to those living in the city has to do with the types of jobs held, not any sort of purposeful discrimination.
o BUSINESS: major tax breaks for large corporations that are gradually reducing NYC employment, combined with a unique unincorporated business tax on anyone opening a growing new business in the city.
Again, those sort of pointless tax breaks aren't inherent to NYC. Most state and local governments have fallen for them. I'm not saying that NYC isn't worse off than most other places, only that it doesn't suffer alone.
I actually see some logic behind the unincorporated business tax. NYC has a large number of big, highly profitable business entities that for various reasons aren't organized as traditional corporations - law firms, accounting firms, ad agencies, and others. They are not subject to corporate income tax and therefore would avoid all entity-level tax if it weren't for the UBT.
I propose providing compensation.
What kind, how much and to whom?
And as for the noise complaint, you can barely hear the trains on the next block over -- I have friends who live on 32nd Street.
You will have to be far more specific to justify such a statement. For example, were the windows open, were there buildings in the way that deflected the sound, what was the auditory acuity of the listeners, etc?
BTW, one of the routings would have avoided almost all private property - the GC Parkway route. It would not have been consistent with the 1-seat design criterion. However, train length could be tailored to airport demand and not to subway constraints. The shorter trains would mean lower operating costs. Perhaps somebody should have analyzed the importance and relevance of the design criteria, before they selected the route.
(I propose providing compensation -- What kind, how much and to whom?)
A cash payment to owners, and to renters depending on how long they've live there.
(And as for the noise complaint, you can barely hear the trains on the next block over -- I have friends who live on 32nd Street. You will have to be far more specific to justify such a statement. For example, were the windows open, were there buildings in the way that deflected the sound, what was the auditory acuity of the listeners, etc?)
I was standing on the street. My hearing is fine. The apartment building across 32nd Avenue may have deflected the noise. Perhaps 31st Street should be upzoned to encourage more tall buildings.
(Route along the Grand Central)
If you mean hooking up to N at Astoria, that would mean two trains going to two places, with less service on each. Also, I can't imagine how it would hook in.
If you mean an Airtrain-like separate system to Queens Plaza, that would work if one were willing to give up the one-seat ride. It wouldn't be as good.
A cash payment to owners, and to renters depending on how long they've live there.
Your idea of compensation is only one step removed from confiscation. Suppose a gas station sprung a leak that rendered a house 1/2 mile away uninhabitable. What kind of non-punitive damages do you think a civil jury would award?
The apartment building across 32nd Avenue may have deflected the noise.
Oh, you were standing in an acoustic shadow?
Perhaps 31st Street should be upzoned to encourage more tall buildings.
Such buildings would definitely be low rent as are the present taxpayers on the block. This is not something that the real estate business builds very well.
Route along the Grand Central
What I'm talking about is an "Airtrain" to Astoria Blvd. It would not be on the same level as the El - but would be connected to it via a elevators and escalators. This would permit the extension to navigate the Amtrak ROW which is the "technical" reason why the TA planners eliminated such routing from consideration.
The traffic generated from the airport is likely to be equal to the combined use of the Jackson, Prospect and Intervale stations in the South Bronx, based on the traffic from Chicago's experience with the Midway and O'Hare lines. They do not need 600 foot trains for service. Shorter, light rail operation will be more economical than running all the service on all the trains to LGA, which is what the present plan requires.
Clever.. but really I think your bus idea has a merit. As it is currently the subway service is more frequent than buses, IMO incomprehenceble.
Arti
buses? in place of a subway?
Please report to manhattan state psych ward for an evaluation. thanks.
Woah.I don't want to offend anyone but, shut down the el's from 11 pm t 6 am , now that sounds like pure bull.Just in case New York forgot , Some people use the subway and elevated lines at night because of something we call " night jobs " .You can't just shut down a section of the subway because of the noise.If a line wasn't built because of noise then New York wouln't have a subway system.And if the MTA even thought about doing that the city would be pissed.Besides,I live ajasent to the New Lots avenue line (3) and If you can't sleep through that noise then you shouldn't live in New York.And every one, EVERYONE knows the MTA busses are the worst Means of tranportation there is in New York.
I agree. you want to shut down els? shut the whole system down from them hours. let's not be selective here. watch the city go straight down the tubes. it's called the city that never sleeps for a *&^&% reason.
Woah.I don't want to offend anyone but, shut down the el's from 11 pm t 6 am , now that sounds like pure bull.Just in case New York forgot , Some people use the subway and elevated lines at night because of something we call " night jobs " .You can't just shut down a section of the subway because of the noise.If a line wasn't built because of noise then New York wouln't have a subway system.And if the MTA even thought about doing that the city would be pissed.Besides,I live ajasent to the New Lots avenue line (3) and If you can't sleep through that noise then you shouldn't live in New York.And everyone, EVERYONE knows the MTA busses are the worst means of tranportation there is in New York.
Well, if things keep going, the TA is going to need to save some series money, and soon.
Could you quantify "series" money the TA would save by running a bus shuttle between Queensboro Plaza and Ditmars during the midnight hours? Between Midnight and 5 AM you are to provide the same service levels (3 trips per hour in each direction).
You might also what to factor in NYPD costs - you shut down the N at QP at night, you're going to need to station an NYPD command post there again as they did in the past when they did a shuttle bus due to a GO - QP has it's prostitues and other assorted crooks and crack addicts (hell, doesn't the bus from rikers drop newly released inmates there at 4AM with nothing but a $3 metrocard). It's not as bad as it has been in the past down there, but if all them astoria riders actually were forced to go downstairs and see that place at night, things would get ugly, and they'd need to station a half dozenor so cops there. that's a lot of wasted money right there.
I have a fairly good idea what the cost differential is to the TA. I want the TA's cost cutter to come up with the figure himself. :-)
You might also what to factor in NYPD costs - you shut down the N at QP at night, you're going to need to station an NYPD command post there again as they did in the past when they did a shuttle bus due to a GO - QP has it's prostitues and other assorted crooks and crack addicts (hell, doesn't the bus from rikers drop newly released inmates there at 4AM with nothing but a $3 metrocard). It's not as bad as it has been in the past down there, but if all them astoria riders actually were forced to go downstairs and see that place at night, things would get ugly, and they'd need to station a half dozenor so cops there. that's a lot of wasted money right there.
On the other hand, Queensboro Plaza probably would be a lot safer overnight with all the subway riders transferring to buses. There is such a thing as safety in numbers.
Not really, when 2/3rd are preppy kids who just moved to there area, coming home half drunk late at night. Easy targets for anyone wanting to tax a few bucks off them, or for the rikers busload to mug so they'll have some money before hoping on the subway with their metrocard to head up to e116 st. to visit the street pharmacists.
The area south of QP has just been rezoned though to allow for some development, and there's a big company (i forget which) that will be leasing that huge olde warehouse (I forget the name of it, though it's now called the 'bridge plaza tech center' according to a banner on the front) starting in october or november, so maybe, just maybe, this little cesspool of western queens will be cleaned up a bit. It'll proibably be a good 5 to 10 years before it's back on it's feet.
Every time this subject comes up, I have but one thing to say: branch off the 63rd st tunnel, heading north on 21st. build a whole new god damned tunnel, all the way north to con ed, swing east down the La Guardia. Period.
A)the city beinifits with one seat to LaG.
B)astoria benifits with a new line
C)the city benifits again since development will occur along the river since it's now more accessable. rezone the waterfront, build some big tall buildings like they're doing in LIC at Queens West, Increase the tax base...
D)leave the N status-Quo. nimbys can't complain about an el extension, and anyone living under it still complaining can be given a mandatory spanking for whining about something they'd have to be blind and stupid to not know about before moving in.
badda-bing badda boom. problem solved, sugar coated with good progress for the city ona whole. end of story.
I forgot:
E)connect the new tunnel to the lower level tracks of 63rd as well, so when LIRR is connected to GCT, a short branch can be run, with a one seat, one stop ride from GCT to LaG.
F)connecting the N to LaG doesn't come close to connecting it to 63rd. - with the 63rd, you can run the line down 6th or 7th av - whereever there is capacity.
G)extend the new 21st. tunnel south, connect it with the G into brooklyn. breathe a bit more new life into that line while we're at it.
That's a "do-able" solution. It is one of several.
Diversions to La Guardia could, theoretically, be made from the 63rd St tunnel, the 60th Street tunnel, the Steinway Street tunnel (not the Steinway tunnel, but the one carrying G and R trains between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights), and others...each has pluses and minuses to it, from the political, fiscal and technical points of view.
It is one of many do-able solutions that were specifically excluded from study. The grant mandate was Astoria line extension.
(It is one of many do-able solutions that were specifically excluded from study. The grant mandate was Astoria line extension. )
Your negativity has reached a new low. You had previously held that NYC cannot afford (and should not build on a cost-benefit basis) a short extension of the N line and the Second Avenue Subway. Now you want a new subway in Queens? Sure, it could be built for $4 billion or so. Taking money from where?
A successful trap. Politically, only a new five mile long subway is possible. Financially, and given the number of people served, it doesn't make sense. Ergo, do nothing.
Your negativity has reached a new low.
The construction cost for the LGA link is proportional to the length of the route, all other factors being equal. This route length for a non-connecting link using GCP is approximately the same as using the 19th Ave route. The construction costs would be comparable. The construction costs are 100% borne by the federal surcharge.
Operating costs are to be borne by the NYCTA. The costs of operating an LRV with the proper number of cars is less than sending every 600' Astoria train from Ditmars to LGA. The key from the city's perspective is to keep operating costs down because the likely business generated by the LGA only extension will be equivalent to that generated by 3 undistinguished elevated stations in the South Bronx.
The only way that an airport link is likely to generate sufficient revenue to cover its operating costs is to serve additional areas on the journey to the airport. Such routing was specifically scoped out of the MTA/PA study which was specifically limited to an "N" line extension.
do nothing.
If you will remember, I suggested starting a free non-stop bus service from LGA to the Roosevelt Ave and Astoria Blvd stations (2 separate routes). Presently only local buses go into LGA. The bus route to the Roosevelt Ave station is not likely to be subject to traffic bottlenecks.
The people who "do nothing" are the "planners" who eschew incremental improvements for an expensive and long lead time solution. I believe that plenty more can be done with the existing system and past performance measures to prove it.
Now you want a new subway in Queens?
The only new subway in Queens that I have proposed was to extend IND along Hillside to Springfield Blvd. The reason for this was to reduce operating expenses. The cost reduction would come from terminating feeder buses at Hillside, rather than having them travel along Hillside to 179th. The free bus-subway transfers have changed the economics for line extensions and feeder buses.
I would also submit that the MTA concentrate on capital programs that reduce operating costs. If the MTA could sustain itself from the farebox, it would be able to expand the system from its own financial resources.
(I would also submit that the MTA concentrate on capital programs that reduce operating costs. If the MTA could sustain itself from the farebox, it would be able to expand the system from its own financial resources.)
That's a good idea in theory. As the token booth closing issue shows, it doesn't always work in practice.
(The only way that an airport link is likely to generate sufficient revenue to cover its operating costs is to serve additional areas on the journey to the airport.)
My idea is to run it out the other end of the airport, elevated on the water side of the GCP, to Flushing, taking pressure off the N, and perhaps on to College Point, where Park-N-Ride facilities could be developed on the otherwise difficult to use Flushing Airport land. But that's dreaming.
That's a good idea in theory. As the token booth closing issue shows, it doesn't always work in practice.
Nothing's easy in this life. It does not mean one should abandon one's principles.
The token booth fiasco is just another example of the TA not following its legal responsibilities. The TWU has enough clout to make them toe the mark; the public does not.
My idea is to run it out the other end of the airport, elevated on the water side of the GCP, to Flushing, taking pressure off the N, and perhaps on to College Point, where Park-N-Ride facilities could be developed on the otherwise difficult to use Flushing Airport land. But that's dreaming.
You have just doubled the mileage and the operating costs for the airport extension. Just how will this reduce TA operating costs. Unlike my suggestion regarding the Hillside Ave extension, there are no MTA buses serving the this part of College Point. They are NYCDOT buses. There already is a Park-n-Ride facility at Willets Point.
The only pressure on the Flushing Line is induced by the TA. They are currently running 30 tph during rush hours. They used to run 36 tph.
BTW, your idea like mine was precluded from consideration by the MTA/PA mandate.
The City Planning idea, which was adopted by the MTA, is for a one seat ride into and throughout Manhattan on the N.
A Port Authority bureaucrat I know argues their position -- only one line gets a one seat ride anyway, so better to have a separate system that goes to major transit hubs, so everyone could have a two seat ride. She recommended Airtrain to Queens Plaza, with a new Sunnyside LIRR station, via the GCT and BQE. That's the original PA proposal, minus the ride over the bridge to Manhattan.
Your proposal is for almost everyone to have a three seat ride -- monorail to Astoria, N, then a change of trains. This may or may not mean you are just against service to the airport and are using a reducto ad absurbum method to argue.
People in Astoria want a ride in the wrong direction to Flushing, followed by two more rides. They are definately out with a poison pill.
A prefer A and will accept B. Your idea, and that of the Astoria NIMBY's, are worse than the existing bus service, in that they will extract money without providing benefits. It's like George Bush's tax cut -- the main purpose seems to be to prevent investment elsewhere in the city.
"People in Astoria want a ride in the wrong direction to Flushing, followed by two more rides. They are definately out with a poison pill."
It has not been proven exactly how many people there are in this camp or that they truly represent the prevailing opinion in Astoria.
Never mistake a NIMBY for the whole neighborhood. That's what NIMBYs want you to do.
The City Planning idea, which was adopted by the MTA, is for a one seat ride into and throughout Manhattan on the N.
The confluence of two such august agencies should give any rational observer cause for concern. :-)
The "requirement" for a "one seat ride" is a physical impossibility for all passengers within a reasonable amount of time.
The major planning mistake is that a "solution" was presented before the problem was posed. Providing the "N" train link may not be a very effective answer to the question of how to improve access to LGA. There should be some curiosity as to who the LGA passengers are, before proposing to spend $1 billion to "help" them getting in and out of LGA.
Quite surprisingly, there has been no published study describing who would use the "one seat" ride to LGA. The little demographic data there is about the LGA passengers would tend to counter the arguments used by this link's supporters. The majority of passengers using LGA are NOT on a business trip(55%). The average LGA passenger makes 1.88 flights per year. Almost half (48%) of the passengers are local residents. So much for the notion that the out of town, frequent business traveller is LGA's principal user.
How will the "N" train's route match the LGA's passenger profile to guarantee the paramount single seat route? It pretty much avoids all residential neighborhoods in Manhattan. Its 60th St/7th Ave route goes along the periphery of the midtown business district, not through its heart. After 2004, it will return to the Manhattan Bridge thus avoiding the Financial District and Downtown Brooklyn. Not quite the door-to-door transport one would expect to serve 45% of the prospective customers. Are the residents along the "N" route frequent flyers? The mean family income for the LGA passenger is $96 K/yr; that doesn't sound like the average Sea Beach or Astoria Line customer.
In short, the "single seat" ride is a fiction. It is a two, three or more seat ride. The Greenpoint resident is going to have to Take the "N" to Lex and change for the "R" to Queens Plaza then change for the "E" or "V" to 23rd St and change for the "G". That's four seats plus a moving sidewalk.
There is an operational cost associated with the LGA extension. This cost will be borne by the TA's customers, unlike the construction costs. It is very unlikely that the proposed one seat extension will break even, based on Chicago's passenger demand data. A light rail/monorail to a connecting subway stop would provide the best chance for break even operation, while providing for a traffic free access path to the airport. Routing the monorail to Roosevelt Ave would probably have been a better choice but the ROW is not available. A substantially longer route, e.g. to Jamaica, will substantially increase the operating costs and be a financial burden.
A Port Authority bureaucrat I know argues their position -- only one line gets a one seat ride anyway, so better to have a separate system that goes to major transit hubs, so everyone could have a two seat ride. She recommended Airtrain to Queens Plaza, with a new Sunnyside LIRR station, via the GCT and BQE. That's the original PA
proposal, minus the ride over the bridge to Manhattan.
The airport links are different than most projects because they provide their own funding. It is the same bait that has given us expressways over rapid transit. All the planner/bureacrat has to do is write a proposal to connect any two points and the funding will materialize, regardless of need or impact.
The PA proposal appears to have been something written in great haste to grab this monetary infusion. The problem was that it was not viable. The Queensboro Bridge could not support Airtrain's weight. Anybody with any fleeting knowledge of the bridge's history knew this. The PA, being in the bridge business, also knew this.
BTW, I'm still waiting for your accepting my challenge for providing a free non-stop bus service from LGA to Astoria Blvd and Jackson Heights.
(BTW, I'm still waiting for your accepting my challenge for providing a free non-stop bus service from LGA to Astoria Blvd and Jackson Heights.)
Back just before I joined the TA, when I still felt I had the ethical right to write in as a citizen, I wrote a general dump it all letter with much of what I wished the TA would do, or should have done.
Last on the list was a quick bus connection from Ditmars. I pointed out that buses from Jackson Heights have to cross a series of east-west roads with signal priority, thus taking forever, while the bus to Astoria Blvd risks getting stuck in traffic on the Triborough and the Grand Central Access road. Neither is frequent enough.
I suggested a bus like the one from Howard Beach to JFK, leaving after connection from each and every train (it is more important to get TO the airport on time than FROM the airport on time). With both the W and N going to Ditmars through 2003, I suggested that it was great time to try such a connection.
They didn't do it.
However, my guess is that if they had proposed such a route, there would have been extensive protest from the "community," which would have been bypassed (they don't mind being bypassed by the service to Rikers) and gotten asthma from the bus fumes.
Last on the list was a quick bus connection from Ditmars. I pointed out that buses from Jackson Heights have to cross a series of east-west roads with signal priority, thus taking forever, while the bus to Astoria Blvd risks getting stuck in traffic on the Triborough and the Grand Central Access road. Neither is frequent enough.
Was this north-south vs. east-west "insight" based on field observations or on divine inspiration attributed to most Planning Commission/MTA proposals? :-)
(Was this north-south vs. east-west "insight" based on field observations or on divine inspiration attributed to most Planning Commission/MTA proposals? :-)
Long, slow north-south rides in a car and on that Q33 bus. I took both routes several times. Today, to get from LaGuardia, I take a cab from Ditmars.
Long, slow north-south rides in a car and on that Q33 bus. I took both routes several times. Today, to get from LaGuardia, I take a cab from Ditmars.
Is it possible that the driving characteristics of a cab driver differ from yours in your own car or a bus driver's?
Have you, per chance, compared the running times for the Q33 against the Q19A (Ditmars Blvd bus) from their respective subway stations to the point where they intersect? (It's a wash.)
The basic problem with the Ditmars routing is that it must cross Astoria Blvd at the point it becomes the GCP service road. There is no direct airport access from Ditmars when it is north of the GCP. The lights do not favor Ditmars. The bottlenecks there are memorable.
Just for the record, according to DeLorme's Topo USA, the from the 94th St LGA entrance to the Ditmars Station via Ditmars Blvd is 2.43 miles and crosses 44 intersections. The Q33 route from the same starting point is 2.54 mies and crosses 31 intersections. There are other routes to Roosevelt Ave station, that would be combinations of the Q33/Q47 or the Q33/Q47/Q19B that would avoid the stretch along Roosevelt Ave from 82nd to 74th. These are slightly longer (0.2 mi) than the Q33 and cross a few more intersections (4). I have not counted the number of traffic lights nor measured their green cycle.
It's nice to know that City Planning Commission and MTA planners can use their own anecdotal evidence and dispense with carefully designed studies for route selection. :-)
The cost for providing bus service from the LGA to either Roosevelt or Ditmars with 10 minute headway and 19 hour service/day will be approximately $3.6 million, if the TA provides it or $2.9 million of a NYCDOT franchise bus company provides it.
The question is which subway stop (Ditmars or Roosevelt) has the greater access from the rest of the system. That's "N" as in NEVER. :-)
In the Grand Scheme of all things, which or what are the biggest or most repeated reasons or faults the Nimbys use to Poo Poo an extension or new line?
I recall:
That element will envade the neighborhood!
Its going to ruin business!
The noise and construction will take FOREVER!
It will destroy the neighborhood!
Can anyone add to the list?
avid
In the Grand Scheme of all things, which or what are the biggest or most repeated reasons or faults the Nimbys use to Poo Poo an extension or new line?
I recall:
That element will envade the neighborhood!
Fear of "those people" is indeed a very big factor in many cases. Of course, even the most thickheaded NIMBY won't say this, but that's what he's thinking.
Its going to ruin business!
The noise and construction will take FOREVER!
It will destroy the neighborhood!
I'm treating these three together because they're intertwined. It's abundantly clear that transit projects do not ruin neighborhoods. Better transit enhances property values. Unfortunately, it is true that in New York transit and other infrastructure projects take an eternity, meaning that the inevitable disruption associated with construction will indeed last forever, or at least seem like it does. And there may be some short-term impairment of property values and business conditions during the construction phase.
What the MTA has to do is prove that it can build things in reasonable time frames. Neighborhood opposition then might decline. MTA management should try to emphasize the surprisingly fast reconstruction of the Franklin Shuttle, while downplaying the 63rd Street tunnel completion fiasco (seven years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel). Needless to say, it won't be an easy sell.
"MTA management should try to emphasize the surprisingly fast reconstruction of the Franklin Shuttle, while downplaying the 63rd Street tunnel completion fiasco (seven years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel)."
It's much easier to finish a subway project when you can shut down an entire line and let workers go about their business uninterrupted. That wasn't possible for much of the 63rd St Connector project, because so much of the project involved much more than the Connector. MTA publicly announced the schedule and budget, and stuck to it. This was actually a job pretty well done. Of course this is New York, so people will grouse. I guess you do too.
You seem intent on repeating the ignorant nonsense about 1500 feet of tunnel when there must have been at least a dozen posts, not to mention all the information available from TA announcements and contract info, explaining all the elements of the project.
MTA management should try to emphasize the surprisingly fast reconstruction of the Franklin Shuttle, while downplaying the 63rd Street tunnel completion fiasco (seven years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel).
It's much easier to finish a subway project when you can shut down an entire line and let workers go about their business uninterrupted. That wasn't possible for much of the 63rd St Connector project, because so much of the project involved much more than the Connector. MTA publicly announced the schedule and budget, and stuck to it. This was actually a job pretty well done. Of course this is New York, so people will grouse. I guess you do too.
You're missing the point. We were discussing ways in which the MTA can make major projects easier for the public to swallow. One very important way is to ease fears that construction periods, with their unavoidable noise and disruption, will drag on for years and years.
Very few people other than engineers and railfans care that the completion of the 63rd Street tunnel was a very complicated project. All that most people know or care about is that it took seven years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel. They don't give a hoot about the dificulties associated with keeping Queens Boulevard operations running. Put it this way: people want results and aren't interested in excuses.
It's not hard to see how this will affect the public acceptance of new construction projects. Let's say the Second Avenue line becomes a real possibility. Many people in the area will think about how long it took to finish the 63rd Street tunnel - regardless of whether or not the lengthy time frame was justified - and will be dead-set against having to put up with construction mess for years and years. Hence, you'll have strong NIMBY opposition. Unless and until the MTA can point to successes in getting projects completed, it will have to face this situation.
Yes, by golly, you're right! I did miss the point of your response.
Thank you for setting me straight. In that case, I agree with the thrust of your argument.
However, I would like to point out that sometimes there are no alternatives to a lengthy construction project. When you create one, disclosing what's involved, listening, and keeping your promises is the best you can do.
The PA did a good job of that on AirTrain. No more than 17 hours per pile driven, no pile driving at night, advance warning of street closings and keeping them brief, frequent meetings with neighbors, rapid insurance paymemnts for claims, a neighborhood office - the results were that a lot of people along the Van Wyck, and newspaper reporters, were positively impressed with the project's progress and the PA came out looking pretty good.
I guess MTA could take a lesson from that.
However, I would like to point out that sometimes there are no alternatives to a lengthy construction project. When you create one, disclosing what's involved, listening, and keeping your promises is the best you can do.
The PA did a good job of that on AirTrain. No more than 17 hours per pile driven, no pile driving at night, advance warning of street closings and keeping them brief, frequent meetings with neighbors, rapid insurance paymemnts for claims, a neighborhood office - the results were that a lot of people along the Van Wyck, and newspaper reporters, were positively impressed with the project's progress and the PA came out looking pretty good.
I guess MTA could take a lesson from that.
You're right, the Port Authority has handled AirTrain very well. Of course, it hasn't hurt that progress on AirTrain has been remarkably quick, nor the fact that it's an above-ground project and the work is in plain sight.
From what I've read, the absolute nadir for the MTA in terms of neighborhood relations was the construction of the Manhattan portion of the 63rd Street tunnel in the early 1970's. East Siders unfortunate enough to have lived along 63rd Street had to put up with extreme noise and disruption for years. I'll bet more than a few people still remember that nightmare. They'll hardly jump for joy at the thought of another big project, no matter what the MTA says.
You're right there. The project took a very long time (people forget, among other things, the meticulous job MTA did of replacing every boulder, sapling etc. from a particular corner in Central Park).
But remember that we now have modern communication technology. The PA's AirTrain has a website.
I say that MTA, for any new subway line, should set up a website, local community office to allow people to vent, to post on the website regular construction progress reports and photos, and even allow local residents to post complaints and promise that an MTA worker will post a reply within 24 hours. Another trick they could take from the PA is automated traffic announcements (if applicable).
Look what Boston has done for the Big Dig. It is not trouble-free to be sure. But there are tours, a web site, FAQ's, stuff for little kids to say "wow," etc. etc.
(Unfortunately, it is true that in New York transit and other infrastructure projects take an eternity, meaning that the inevitable
disruption associated with construction will indeed last forever, or at least seem like it does.)
I've gained some insight into this on the job. The entire system is designed to minimize mistakes and disruption. Therefore the planning and reviews and bureacracy takes far longer than the actual work.
In order to minimize mistakes, you not only have the whole planning cum EIS process I knew about, then you have a whole budget process that takes years. Then you have the details -- scope of work, preliminary design, final design, request to advertize, bids, negotiation. Five years later, you get a contract award.
Then very little happens for a year or two, as the contractor orders materials, hires workers, mobilizes, surveys field condtions, etc. Meanwhile a schedule has to be put together to get access to the tracks (not conflicting with other projects), get the TA Labor in the budget (TA workers actually do a lot of rail specialty work for the contracter), etc.
Finally you start to work like crazy. Or you would, except your access to the railroad is limited to avoid disrupting service, so you set up, work, clean up, nights and middays. Sometimes you schedule work and the material isn't there, or you can't get workers, or your GO is cancelled for some reason. Sometimes you have a "55 hour GO" with access to an area over an entire weekend.
In any event the bulk of the work in a seven year project takes place in 2 1/2 to three years.
Thank you for posting that, Larry. That was very helpful and illuminating.
I rode the PCCs again with my friend yesterday. I rote about it on my site.
Tony
My site
Tony,
I hope you write better than you wrote.
What was wrong with it?
OH! "Rote" What the heck is wrong with me! LOL! Sorry. Your critisism is well deserved. I'll "rite" back soon.< g >
That extra W is useless anyway.
I say stay with the spelling revolution, anser the call!
LOL. I'm beting a lot of peepal feel that way. Let the revilushun beegin. ^_^
Let's not go overbord!
Do u feel this wil katch on?
I'd hate for EXIT to be replaced by WAY OUT.
u meen EKSIT 2 B Replaesd bi WAI OWT
I prunowns it difrently: egzit
Let me get my nives, so that I kan get to no you better. Then we kan study sychology.
-Hank :)
I aktualy thaut that Tony was beeng funny becuz "rote" rymes with "rode"...
|_3>
U geyser nuts! Pay a ten shun! Its eggs it. and u Hank its sighcologee.
avid
i will be going to see the newark PCC's tomorrow. anyone seeing me i will have a 7 train shirt on. see someone there i hope
E JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
Um, where do you expect to find them? They stopped running for good on Friday.
The stored cars are easily seen at the new Grove St. Station adjacent to the new Maint. Facility. First car in the group is Car #11, the one that got stubborn when asked to transport the dignitaries to the retirement party at Branch Brook.
Real strange seeing all of them together like that with the doors padlocked.
I took a look at them this afternoon. It looks like the entire PCC fleet is there at Grove Street.
While I was up that way, I took a look at the Branch Brook Park Station. The wire is all gone from over the loop, but the loop is still there. No work seems to have been done on removing the track itself or laying the connection for the Penn Station-bound track (or for that matter on placing the catenary connection for that track). For the moment, at least, cars will reverse at BBP and use a cross-over just south/east of BBP to change tracks.
As for the station itself, it's "close enough for Govt. work." Can you say "Punch List"?
I hear the loop track is being donated to a museum, I don't know which one.
The wire was only trolley wire, they never installed cat for the pants there.
The whole line is being bussed today, You can ride the new cars Monday, when the grand re-opening takes place.
Chuck Greene
I'm really sorry to say that the Newark PCCs are gone for good now.
-Robert King
The article is here:
Baltimore Sun article
But don't believe all of what you read... I had my first ride aboard the Acela Express today, on the next train north out of Washington Union Station, and we were only 2 minutes down coming into Baltimore.
The train that hit the person was Acela Regional #142, which originated in Washington Union Station at 12:05 PM. I was aboard Acela Express #2254 which left Washington at 1:00 PM.
We passed the accident scene at about 1:26, the scene was just south of signal 994, when we passed, there was nothing visible on the tracks, an ambulance was present just outside the ROW and there were probably more than a dozen local police officers (i.e. not Amtrak, but I didn't catch if they were Baltimore City or other local).
#142 was a ways further down the tracks, past the signal but still south of the W. Baltimore MARC station. No one from the train crew was visible outside the train, nor could I see if the passengers were still on board. The train was being pulled by an AEM-7, I wrote down 958 as the locomotive number, but I can't find that in any rosters, so perhaps it was 953?
-k
I had my first Acela Express ride Saturday, from Philly to DC, to connect with the Lake Shore (I'm in Chicago now). We ran at 15 mph for a while, then there were 2 north bound trains stopped on adjacent tracks. Amtrak personnel were on the ground between the 2 trains. I didn't know what happened until now. Thanks for the post.
I had my first Acela Express ride Saturday, from Philly to DC, to connect with the Lake Shore (I'm in Chicago now).
Of course I meant the Capitol Limited; I'm coming home on the Lake Shore Sunday and Monday.
I heard they are going to abandon the loop track. Where will the LRV's platform?
The exit platform that we used, the one that's to the inside of it and the track to the inside of that. Both have had escalators installed recently.
No. The Newark loop will be retained. Have a look here for information posted by a member of NJ Transit.
John
It's the other loop -- the one at Branch Brook Park -- that is being abandoned at this time. In fact, it is already OOS because the overhead wire has been removed.
As for the future, the continued use of the loop under Penn Station may depend on how the route selection for the NERL goes. If the connection to Elizabeth runs east of the NEC from Penn Station, they might tunnel out the back and use parts of the loop space for mainline track. I can see the two outside platforms being used for through trains while the inside tracks would handle NCS service terminating at Penn Station. On the other hand, if the route to the airport runs down Broad Street (or one of the adjacent streets west of the NEC) and then swings east near the airport, the loop continues to be a convenient way to handle all traffic. Stay tuned.
Today was one of the worst days of my life. I am sure it was not much better for the others who were held prisoner on the E, F, and R trains today.
My day began at 12 noon, at 67th in Forest Hills. I boarded a s/b R train, on my way to Steinway to workout. I finished my workout at 1:30, and headed to the Steinway station, to go to the city to meet some friends. An R train came, and we left Steinway. Then the train stopped, We waited 12 minutes before we could pull into 36th. The rest of my trip to Lexington Ave was a disaster. It took a total of 34 minutes to get from Steinway to Lexington.
I was holding a paper cup which contained my protein drink. When I realized it would be a long ride, I just crumpled the cup and threw it on the floor.
Disgusting!!! Why does it seem, more and more, like a simple subway ride to the city has to be an adventure?
It didn't end there. I took a cab back to Queens, and went to Rego Park. I decided to give the trains a shot between Woodhaven Blvd and Continental. I entered Woodhaven Blvd at 11:30. I observed a s/b E going local. Then, a n/b F passed us by on the local track. Then a n/b E. Then a n/b F on the express track. Then a n/b E on the local??????????
What's going on here? Who is the monkey that is deciding to pass all these stations between Roosevelt and Continental, while 3 trains are servicing the stations between Roosevelt and Manhattan?
Such a simple procedure. Yet, the TA messes it up every weekend!!! Always an adventure. Not just for the passengers, but the employees who are stressed out with all this confusion too. The employees who have to deal with the angry passengers, who are so frustrated with the constant stupidity of the TA.
I'm due to be called for the T/O job in October, unless they change the start date of that class. I am going back to school this semester as well. If the TA calls me, and accepts me, I am going to ask to be put into a later class. I am going to do my best to avoid employment with the TA.
But the economy is tough, and the TA pays well. And if I ever do accept a job with the TA, I'll know life has defeated me.
Goodbye all.
Yours truly,
LuchAAA
I suppose you don't consider taking a public bus?
It could have been worse. You could have been cited for littering, too.
you are right about that... no excuse for throwing garbage on the floor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Stuff happens. If you get this upset over changes maybe you're not cut out for public service?
If 34 minutes and a few trains bypassing your station makes for one of the worst days of your life, you must have had a very good life until now. I'm sorry to hear that that's changing. I've had much longer delays than 34 minutes. I've been on a train that took 90 minutes to get from 42nd Street to 86th Street. I've missed an appointment (which I still had to pay for, approx. $100) because I was on a train that ran express from 96th Street to 137th Street (with no warning until after we pulled out of 96th) due to an imaginary stalled train on the local track, and by the time I got back to 103rd nearly an hour had passed.
Unlike most subway riders, you knew in advance about this weekend's changes. Is there any reason you didn't, say, take the 7 into Manhattan, which would have avoided the delays?
You probably would've been better off taking the bus!
The MTA hates us QB local riders from Roosevelt to Continental. They force us to watch express trains pass by, so that when we finally get a local to take us to Roosevelt, we get to enjoy a force-fed local ride. Same in the reverse direction, watching express trains leave Roosevelt on the local track, sometimes four in a row before an R. I hope a Bergen st-style fire destroys Roosevelt's interlocking power. Then, they will be forced to send trains either full express (allowing us a transfer to express trains) or full local (allowing us a decent frequency of service).
I entered Woodhaven Blvd at 11:30. I observed a s/b E going local. Then, a n/b F passed us by on the local track. Then a n/b E. Then a n/b F on the express track. Then a n/b E on the local??????????
Queens Blvd. line trains run express and local in their relative subway lines. But what you have experienced is a first to me.
During the next TWO weekends, the T/A is RUNNING ALL THREE (E,F,R) trains through the 63rd ST. Tunnel. The E is rerouted in Manhattan,
Crazy, eh?
I guess the T/A cannot manage their trains as they should. When in doubt, look for alternatives. I take the 7 and it works just fine.
No bugs or short-circuits, the Redbirds (some) are quite bumpy, but at least it won't get you delayed.
But I think the 7 has too many local stops to Times Square. It's a 17-minute ride from 40-Lowery ST. to Times Square.
Good luck on your business and also with the Subway!
: )
Railfan Pete.
R-142 6680 and I belive two others were delivered yesterday. I passed it at Tremont Ave at about 10:50 PM. 6680 was the only car number that I could read, but there were about two others behind it.
6676-80 are on the property.
-Stef
Guess what? The Adirondack does not connect with the Lake Shore at Albany -- you have to wait 18 hours. In fact, generally trying to use the Lake Shore Ltd if you live in Boston is a pain in the ass. For example, the Eastbound Lake Shore arrives in Boston for 6pm -- a lot of good if you're trying to use it to getaway for the weekend. NOT. The only connection I could find that goes from VT to Boston is via the Vermonter, connecting at Springfield MA with an inland route train. That works fairly well. But supposing you were in western Vermont, how the hell are you supposed to get to the route of the Vermonter? Even Greyhound doesn't have a feeder bus which runs that route. THIS SUCKS!!!!
Vermonters DO like their isolation ... but I guess this is merely further punctuation for "if you live up this way, you're scr00d without a car." My guess is Amtrak's logic is much like puddle-hopper airlines and their precious "hubs" ... betcha the timing works if you travel via NYC ... check it. I'd bet it works.
The Vermonter runs at the pleasure of the State of Vermont, not Amtrak. Ideally, there should be a Boston - Palmer train and a split/merge. Knowing how Amtrak does things, such a switching move would take an hour.
I smell Budd cars. Why don't they put some Budd cars on this split/merge route? It's a retrograde step, but at least it works. Ideally, you would have infrastructure where you can simply back one train onto the other, brake test and go.
They are planning on using Budd cars for Cape Cod, non-Amtrak service.
If you mean SPV's, forget it. Metro-North's blue fleet is stored unservicable and vandalized in Croton-North. The ConnDOT orange fleet are now push-pull coaches. There are no more servicable RDC's laying around either, unless you get them off an equipment dealer of VIA Rail in Canada.
In any case, they have no traction motors, and so can't get 3rd rail shoes, and can't mutiple with Amfleet.
You haven't even taken in account that the timekeeping on #48 Lake Shore is terrible. It runs on CSX. Here's a new term to add the glossary of acronyms
CSX: Can't Seem to Explain
Michael
The problem with using that as a connexion is that the Lake Shore is always about 2 hours late, which means I still miss it by 16 hours...
The timekeeping on CSX's Lake Shore (ex-CR) is still better than CSX's Three Rivers (ex-B&O). It seems that the longer CSX has owned the lines, the later the Amtrak train runs. I'm a frequent traveller on the Three Rivers, and at one point I have been held in a siding to let not one, but TWO freights pass. To add insult to injury, the second train was not a hot shot intermodal -- but a GENERAL MERCHANDIZE TRAIN!!! So, Amtrak customers officially has less priority than pigs, sheep, and cattle.
I like your acronym.
Lexcie
I wish Amtrak would be the 3R back on the Fort Wayne line. Even at 59MPH dark railroad with 1 freight a day, it would be more timely and dependable.
Unless you count the diamond Q as being a different line from the circle Q, the B line is the only line since the bridge swap that has not had a service diversion.
If the B and D are different lines, then the Q and Q are different lines.
I don't think the 9 has had a scheduled diversion in a really long time. And, although a diversion is listed for the Z, the Z doesn't make any of the stops it lists as being bypassed.
White Plains Road I (replacing the signals north of Bronx Park East) is about done, White Plains Road II (from 149th Street to South of E. 180th is underway, and White Plains Road III (E. 180th Street station, switches, and the yard) is in planning.
When that is done, will all the old IRT signals be gone? How about the Dyre Avenue Line?
If and when all the old IRT signals are replaced, will that mean that it will be easier for T/O and tower operators to switch between the A and B divisions?
Well the original IRT signals the red ball over green are going to be replaced, in fact the repair fence, reached past Freeman Street as of now and a couple of these fences are placed north of 177th street station.
Still some in the yards.
It isn't hard to switch between Divisions now, no reason that this would make it any easier.
They are all over the place. You ride on a 01800 and it goes KLUNK KLUNK KLUNK KLUNKLUNKLUNKLUNKLKLKLKLKKKKKKKKKKK. No, this isn't the normal noise for a thrystor-driven AC traction motor starting up. It's when you have a wheel lock, and the wheel slips on the rail, creating high temperatures and grinding down one side of the tyre, producing a wheel flat. When wheel flat are generated, the rail is damaged, and the rail is further damaged as each revolution of the wheel hammers the rail at the flat spot.
Question: I'm pretty sure that the 01800 has dynamic braking (judging from the sound the motor makes when slowing down). It doesn't need to brake particularly hard, and most of it is underground with controlled railhead conditions. They also don't have sanders. HOW ON EARTH DO THESE CARS MANAGE TO GET WHEEL FLATS??? Do the MBTA drag them dead with brakes full on or something? The weird thing is, the wheel flats are almost never on BOTH trucks of the same car -- usually just the one set of trucks on a car that goes klunk -- and not necessarily at the same end.
I can understand the 01600 and 01700 series having wheel flats. The modern technology Bombardier puts into the 01800 is supposed to at least mitigate such occurances...
I don't believe that any technology will keep a wheel completely round forever. That's why transit systems and railroads use truing machines (spelling?). Maybe MBTA needs to examine its preventive maintenance program.
Amtrak and LIRR trains sound a bit like that too, actually. Why don't you write to MBTA and ask what the problem is?
heh, actually I did take a note of the name of the Red Line operations chief. He was Anthony somethihng-or-other and I have his e-mail address at home. The thing is, I wasn't sure whether to tell him what a wheelflat is (in which case he might be offended if he already knew the extent of the problem), or whether I should just ask politely about these klunking noises (in which case I risk getting a non -technical response).
I used to work for a commuter railroad that had such ridiculous wheelflats and I used to make a point of telling the management (I was also a management staff, just not on the engineering side), and the responses I got are basically along the lines of: "What the f**k do you know about engineering? If you think you can get rid of these wheelflats, why don't you come and f**king run this depot for a day or two?" I guess I didn't want to hear that all over again from MBTA.
As for Amtrak's wheelflats, they are nowhere near as bad as what I hear on MBTA. I suppose MBTA might make the argument that since their railcars are so light, the amount it would cost to turn the wheels is more than amount it costs to replace the rails when cracks develop. Maybe someday someone will study what the optimal interval for wheel turning is, although the economics of this will surely depend on how often you can afford to take train out of service: it is a lot easier to do this on MBTA (turn their wheels on Sundays) than it is on Amtrak Intercity (which is a 7-days operation).
Lexcie
I have two thoughts:
1) If you do not ask, you're guaranteed not to find out.
2) If you ask politely, there's a chance you'll get a reasonable reply. If you get a rude reply, don't worry about it. It's their attitude problem, not yours.
The Red Line Chief is Anthony Kinahan. I've written him on
"customer service" issues, and he's responded quickly and effectively.
The MBTA's "Write to the top" program has been very successful.
NYCT should take note!
I've always gotten good information from NYCT when I've written. It does take a while sometimes; but I have a file drawer full of letters and other materials from the TA. Perhaps what they need to do is advertise correspondence accessibility a bit more...
Here we go:
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:29:24 +0100 (BST)
From: Alex Lu
To: akinahan@mbta.com
Subject: Red Line Engineering Issues
Dear Sir,
I write in response to the popular "Write to the top" programme, about which I have heard many positive comments. Firstly, I offer my congratulations on the successful programme.
I am a relatively new resident to Boston. Being a daily commuter on the Red Line, one of the first thing I noticed is the incidences of wheel-flats amongst Red Line vehicles, particularly amongst the 01800
fleet. I am sure you understand the problem a lot better than I do -- not only does the sound and vibrations lead to customer discomfort, if left unchecked, wheelflats causes track deterioration by propagating cracks while the train is travelling at speed, particularly in cold weather. This potentially adds up to a large long-term maintenance bill as track will require replacement before their design life is up.
I used to work for a commuter railroad which runs electric trains, not unlike the Red Line. Their solution to this problem is to use the window of opportunity resulting from reduced services on Sunday to allow the depot to take the offending trainsets out of service to a wheel lathe. Whilst I don't know if this is practical within the MBTA set up, I tentatively advance this as a suggestion -- if the economics were to prove that turing the wheels periodically is indeed cheaper than replacing the rail as cracks develop.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. Please keep me posted if
any progress is made.
Yours Faithfully,
Lexcie Lu
--
Lexcie Lu . lexcie@innocent.com . Somerville MA 02144 . Marion OH 43302
"Their solution to this problem is to use the window of opportunity resulting from reduced services on Sunday to allow the depot to take the offending trainsets out of service to a wheel lathe."
Lexcie, this is an interesting concept. Let me see if I understand your idea. The management of a particular line use the off-peak service periods as an oportunity to do needed maintenance on the rolling stock??? If this were to be done, how could the managers then lay up trains that don't need any maintenance? Then again, this is a really interesting concept and I'll talk about it with senior management as soon as I return from vacation..
Hey Everybody! It wouldn't be the Red Line without flat wheels! This is not a new issue, it has been around since I first started paying attention to the line over forty years ago! (at about age 3). Honestly, Lexcie, please let us know what your response from the manager is.
That was a joke, right?
Great! When you get a reply, post it here!
Dear Mr Lu,
Thank you for taking the time to write with your observations about the wheels of the Red Line fleet.
In fact, we do true the wheels on a regulat basis using a milling machine (as opposed to a lathe). Wheels are inspoected on a regular schedule and any with flat spots are removed from service as soon as possible.
Every attempt is made to keep the wheels in good shape.
Again, thank you for writing.
Tony Kinahan
So yeah, I feel very stupid now -- they obviously have a good handle on the situation. Maybe I should spend less time on the redline and more time facing the wall in my bedroom.
Heh. If they are aware of it, AND milling those puppies, then it would seem that they have a significant number of BIE's and car drags. Wheels don't go flat by themselves unless chunks of cracked metal fall off. During NYCTA's "deferred maintenance" days, there were LOTS of square wheels on the rails, but they had a nasty habit of derailing or breaking switch points ...
Good going, Lexcie!
Now we know that wheel truing is part of regular maintenance.
However, I defer to Selkirk and others who point out that many flat spots = a problem with the way trains are operated. I agree that finding the source of these problems is important.
Flats are not always the way the trains are _operated_ but rather the way they are maintained in other areas. As Train Dude pointed out, journal bearings can lock up, valves can apply air when in dyn mode, motor shafts can seize, all kinds of things can cause flats. Bottom line is if the train is moving, and a wheel ain't spinning, you'll develop a flat as it's dragged along a rail.
In many circumstances, an operator MIGHT hear the dragging wheel, it may become so bad as to spark and ignite track fires behind the train but these situations are very rare. (remember that B train that derailed after dragging a locked wheel for miles, setting track fires?) Spit happens, but flats are caused by dragging wheels. The question is why is it dragging?
And although also rare, a SINGLE BIE from a reasonable amount of speed with a wheel lockup can also result in a flat wheel. Leaving them out there for prolonged periods, beating the rails though, is a real bad idea. Look at what all those R10's with flat wheels did to the CPW dash ...
By the way, one fine cold morning at Coney when I was a conductor, we had just pulled out of Brighton Beach when suddenly a loud bang followed by clunk-clunk-clunk-clunk started in the car behind my position as I was stepping down. I yanked the cord. As it turns out, the wheel had actually BROKEN and a "slice of pie" fell out onto the track. If the train had kept going, it would have been a derail for sure if that car had hit the switch. It was missing about a quarter of the wheel that had cracked and broken off. Now THAT's a flat tyre. :)
A flat pie plate, you mean ;0)
It was strange ... they had to bring out a diesel and this weird little set of mini-wheels - sorta like those things that they put under a car when it's a front wheel drive and needs to be towed. Had a hell of a time jacking up the car - blew the railroad for a couple of hours. Couldn't move it at all. Stopped right with the missing piece down too wouldn't ya know. Lotta cussin' and swearing out of the supervisors too when they saw what happened. :)
That was one defective wheel. I take it this happened before metal faults in wheels, axles etc. could be tested for ultrasonically?
-Robert King
1970. It was an R4 that had apparently developed a pair of cracks and somehow a really cold morning and hot brake shoes made it fly apart on the railroad.
Ya know, it's funny that you mention that. When I *first* heard of WD's here, I didn't think of it as a penalty brake opportunity - I thought the TA had mounted these WD's to spot bad wheels as they passed by locations for exactly what you're suggesting. Given what I had happen on my train back then, struck me as a great idea. Until that is, I found out what WD's are in the system.
I'm sure the TA has _something_ for that purpose. I know there's track defect inspection cars and of course, these things can be checked during routine inspections I'm sure as well. Dunno if there's anything out on the revenue track looking for it though.
You can use x-ray machines and ultrasound for that sort of thing.
Absolutely, and I would expect that when Train Dude sees this thread, he'll probably indicate that they do indeed use both methods today. Still, spit happens and that was one hell of a "flat wheel" ... heh.
We use neither to detect wheel defects on the road.
I was thinking more in terms of the barn inspections - can't see how you would use them out on the road without ultrasound. I can't remember well enough to state it as fact or opinion, but I *think* the guys down at Coney in the wheel shop said that they used ultrasonics to check the wheels as part of the inspection for cracks, but it was special equipment. Didn't get to see that piece of the show though.
During routine inspections, the inspectors rely on visual inspection. At one time they used their ears too, but with the advent of ring-damped wheels, that time-honored practice went the way of the D-3F compressor.
Heh. Have ball-pein, will travel. I tell ya, working the show gave me one HELL of a lot of respect for RCI's ... even when they didn't let me dump. No more reciprocators, eh? Damn the subway's gone to hell. Heh.
Only until about 5 years ago, the "dolly" was used for the purpose of providing temporary safe transit for a truck assembly with flats so severe that rolling on the wheels placed the trains safe movement in imminent danger. The Dolly was low enough to allow the raised car sitting upon it to clear tunnels, portals and other obstacles. 5 years ago, an IRT train was placed on this dolly on the Lexington Avenue Express tracks and ripped down cabling, signal apparatus and damaged one car's roofing. Sort of like the problems that plauged the Broadway Local transfers north of 96th Street. Nowadays, temporary welds are made to build up the flat portion of a flattened wheel to get it to it's respective main shop for truck swapping.
Another tradition bites the ceiling. (grin) Back when I saw that puppy get put under my train (after a cut of course) we were fortunate enough to be in the great outdoors so wouldn't have been a problem in my case. But boy, it sure ruined the railroad. Happened at around 7:30 on a Monday morning just north of Brighton. Fascinating to watch though, especially ON the clock. :)
The little wheels you refer too were called Cauley Wheels. They mounted to the brake rigging on a truck with clasp-type brakes. I'm happy to say, I was only involved with them twice before they were retired permanently. BTW: They can't be used on a truck without clasp brakes.
That sounds about right ... fascinating little maneuver it took. Ever see a wheel lose a chunk? Sure impressed me the racket it made.
1983 - X-mas day, wind chill in the -20 range and an R-44 lost an entire wheel between south channel bridge and Hammel's Wye. The wheel spiit right around the hub. Changing a truck in the cold, up on the structure was quite the experience for all involved.
Sea breeze on top of the rest, geez ... at least WE did it on the ground. My hat's off to ya, guy. That's Murphy in the cab to the nth to be stuck there. In my case, wasn't much I could do. Yanked the cord when I heard what sounded like a derail and got paid to stand around, explaining to wigs, deputy wigs and unior deputy wiglets why I pulled the cord. If I had to do the WORK too, I think I woulda shot myself. :)
They used to give a day off with pay to a car inspector who found a cracked wheel (I'm not sure if that was ever an official policy). Did you get anything like that - or even a commendation?
I got four hours of overtime, then got to start my second split. No, back then there were no rewards for keeping a train from killing all on board. But after that run, the guys back at Stillwell treated me a bit better. That was it. At best, I got my stones broken for trying to get out of a run to the Bronx by some, others asked me why I broke the train, you know how it goes ... and back in the 1970's, nobody was impressed by harrowing experiences, it was just another day on the road ... heh.
If you were there in the 70's, you know whut I meen. :)
Not in the 70s. This is my 20th year.
Heh. You'll be getting out on good behavior soon. I'm sure when you came on board given that you did hammer duty, the old timers musta told you about "anything can happen day" ... which was pretty much every day down yonder. I know things hit the bottom around 1980, but around 1970, most of the new fleet was still on the drawing board or the purchase order stage waiting for someone to cut a check. Things was bad then. Salad bowl consists of anything that would run tossed together the way Jesus flung 'em in the yards, anything that would roll would go and to get a B/O sheet attached, the car had to produce flames in the passenger compartment to bang in sick. :)
Truly wonderous times ... over the years I've met a few others that were out there when I was and universally, the song remained the same. Imagine a railroad where the only thing you could COUNT ON WORKING was the redbirds. Oy. Heh.
No, not too soon. Pension is now 25/55 so I have a few to go. Of course, if the TWU gets the 20/50 next year, I'll be applying for a job at NY&ARR as an engineer - part time - at night.
Heh. Ah, you don't have the state game down right, son ... it's once you VEST that you break out the "countdown to retirement" calendar and start penning it in. Now I'm disappointed. :)
Well, if you get tired of the toy trains, you're always welcome to come up to Selkirk and tilt some boxcars. CSX is looking for people who can walk OR chew gum. Knowing a power connector from a brake hose a plus.
"Heh. Ah, you don't have the state game down right, son ... it's once you VEST that you break out the "countdown to retirement" calendar and start penning it in. Now I'm disappointed. :)"
Ah, but they've changed the game - many times. I was hired under 30/62 which was changed to 25/62 and then to 25/55. As I understand the current NYCERS pension system, I can go out at 25/55 but if I freeze my pension, I drop back to 25/62, hence, I wouldn't be elligable to collect my pension for an additional 7 years. That loss (due to delaying my pension for 7 years) would be well in excess of ........ let's just say it's a lot of money.
Oh cheet ... they tier 3'd yer bones, eh? That short stint with the TA saved my buns a few years ago. When I came back into the state in 1985, I got tier 3'd also ... PEF ... vested, did 13 years and as I was about to leave, the legislature passed some weird provision to tier 1 me and others in a special group of folks that had prior history with the state in tier one land. As it was, my almost a year with the MTA was tha magic ticket.
Officially, I'm "retired" from the Public Service Commission now, my wife and I started a software company and bought a combination commercial and residential building - we live upstairs, the company is downstairs and the commute up and down those stairs is a real beach. If I sit out to 62 with the years served, I get the whole enchilada. I took one of Paturkey's "get lost, kid" incentives and they credited the years I needed to get to 20 served for 14 years cumulative "in." Had I gone for it now, I would have been screwed. I can wait.
Still ... I started counting my days once I had my ten years in. :)
For new hires, the TA pension for Tier IV is worth just somewhat more than nothing, if one deducts the value and expected earnings of the 5.85 percent of your salary that you have to put in, and assigns a value to the risk that if you leave the TA after five years but well before age 62 the money is basically gone.
The pension is so bad that may cost the TA next to nothing. If anything, what you are getting from the TA is definately less than three percent of salary. Most of the TA's pension contributions (and perhaps some of those of Tier IV workers) goes to fund the absurdly generous Tier I and II pensions. For those who have the option of remaining provisional and not paying FICA, it just doesn't pay to join the pension.
Many private companies that have eliminated pensions, in contrast, will dump six percent of your salary into a 401K. You take that money with you when you go.
Oh I know ... that's the reason I hit the silk when it was offered from my old state gig ... and took the sweetened pot while I could.
I have *NO* faith in the dweezils that pander to the public when it's time for a re-up, and DAMN if the people don't re-elect the same CROOKS over and over again because instead of checking into what their anointed do and vote based on WHAT they do, the dumb asses pull the lever based no more on "I always pull this lever" or worse, "I know this guy's name - my answer is correct." NO JOKE.
What bugged the hell out of me working for the "system" (both TA and later in Smallbany as a "statie") is that the assumption is you're lower than dirt, are a glorified welfare recipient by the masses, are spit upon, blamed for everything the lawgivers foist upon everybody and worse ... if your damned receipt till doesn't check, you don't just get fired, YOU GO TO JAIL ...
You're dependent on the whim of SC*MB*GS out for themselves (the politicos) and your function, line item, terms of employment and the whole insane world you're forced to live in can be blown up with the stroke of a pen. At least in the private sector, if you make a LOT more than you're paid and don't cheese off the world, you get to keep your job. If you REALLY bring in the bucks, you get a raise.
Not so as a statie - you have to meet more stringent conditions in testing completely unrelated to what you do, you're evaluated on a strange curve intended for strict "touchy feely" and exemplary service is punished ... I could go on and on.
My point is that the poor bastards who live off the "state teat" are spit upon, degraded, tortured by ridiculous policies, and generally worn down in any attempt to do the right thing. Have to cover their butts with paperwork instead of doing their job because some whiny-assed politico might get their panties in a bunch and decide *YOU* are the problem for what they signed ...
That's why *I* hit the silk with the state ... am I cheesed about politics? You betcha. The poor schlumps that collect a government check *KNOW* what the problems are, and KNOW how to fix them, but that would violate secret rule 12. What is secret rule 12? I can tell you, but then I'd have to kill you for violating secret rule 12. Such is the game.
I have *NO* faith in the dweezils that pander to the public when it's time for a re-up, and DAMN if the people don't re-elect the same CROOKS over and over again because instead of checking into what their anointed do and vote based on WHAT they do, the dumb asses pull the lever based no more on "I always pull this lever" or worse, "I know this guy's name - my answer is correct." NO JOKE.
Blame the voters. If they'd actually start making intelligent choices, the politicians wouldn't be able to take re-election for granted.
"But I KNOW this guy's name! I'm VOTING for him!" NO DAMNED JOKE. If folks are getting tired of their situation, go look up how YOUR politico voted on what you care about. There STILL ain't no "state budget" FIVE MONTHS PAST THE DEADLINE! If you were to observe a "state worker" or even a pissant "city worker" sitting on their asses for five straight months and then collecting a CHECK for sitting on their ass, wouldn't you be scratching and sniffing #2 on the cardboard ODORAMA sheet from "POLYESTER?"
Yet, you keep re-electing the same a$$4ole from your state assembly and senate district who's been a no-show since APRIL FOOL'S DAY when the budget was due ... and we wonder why civil servicers have to keep their head low and ALWAYS make sure of how your jock cup is positioned. Moo.
As a public employee, I know that you are exactly right.
I expected to be providing information for elected officials to make decisions. What I found out is that elected officials are too stupid to understand information, and they don't make decisions. They make non-decisions, and do deals.
Look at all the politicos bashing the "unaccountable" Board of Education and the "unaccountable" MTA. The folks that are actually unaccountable are the pols. And they are the ones that set up the systems that are impossible to make work.
The pension is so bad that may cost the TA next to nothing. If anything, what you are getting from the TA is definately less than three percent of salary. Most of the TA's pension contributions (and perhaps some of those of Tier IV workers) goes to fund the absurdly generous Tier I and II pensions. For those who have the option of remaining provisional and not paying FICA, it just doesn't pay to join the pension.
Heh heh, it's still better than the Wal-Mart pension system :-)
(Heh heh, it's still better than the Wal-Mart pension system :-)
Not if Wallmart doesn't deduct six percent of your salary for it.
It is a true scandal that the City, which is having trouble recruiting teachers, offers such a lousy pensions while still -- as a result of gold plated pensions in the past -- having above average pension costs. If Wallmart had followed such a personnel strategy, it would be broke by now.
Heh heh, it's still better than the Wal-Mart pension system
Not if Wallmart doesn't deduct six percent of your salary for it.
It is a true scandal that the City, which is having trouble recruiting teachers, offers such a lousy pensions while still -- as a result of gold plated pensions in the past -- having above average pension costs. If Wallmart had followed such a personnel strategy, it would be broke by now.
Well, Wal-Mart's pension system doesn't require any paycheck deductions - mainly because it doesn't exist! The company has never offered pensions, yet has managed to become the country's largest private-sector employer. I suspect that a fair percentage of its workers are collecting pensions from somewhere else.
As far as the City's pension costs are concerned, I suppose some solace can be taken in the fact that the problem is self-limiting. Human lifespans being what they are,* the ranks of the "gold-plated" pensioners will be significantly diminished in another 15 or 20 years. That's good for the taxpayers, although it doesn't make things any more equitable for municipal employees hired in the "poor pension" years.
* = I recall reading that life expectancy for NYC residents is lower than the national average. All that exorbitant health care spending hasn't paid off.
(As far as the City's pension costs are concerned, I suppose some solace can be taken in the fact that the problem is self-limiting. Human lifespans being what they are,* the ranks of the "gold-plated"
pensioners will be significantly diminished in another 15 or 20 years. That's good for the taxpayers, although it doesn't make things any more equitable for municipal employees hired in the "poor pension" years.)
You have hit upon the very thing that makes this such a cranky thread. As Tier I beneficiaries retired, and their pensions were fully funded, the City's pension contributions were falling. In FY 1997, pensions contributions as a share of the income of all NYC residents fell to the national average. That is, NYC residents weren't paying more of their incomes in local taxes to fund public employee pensions than the average American elsewhere.
One reason is that it turns out that the one thing Tier I didn't have was an inflation adjustment. Those who grabbed the gold plated pensions found out that they were slightly less gold plated over time.
Well guess what, just as the market peaked the state handed out a retroactive inflation adjustment that increased the pensions payments to long retired beneficiaries by up to 50 pecent. Then it eliminated the 3 percent employee contribution for those hired before 1990, after having made a 5.85 percent contribution mandatory for those joining the pension after 1995. And, the state said it wouldn't cost the City anything.
So guess what. Those already in the system now once again have a lucrative pension. New hires are screwed even worse than in the original Tier IV. And with the market down (I guess they thought that would never happen again), the City and State pension contributions are going to soar by billions. ANOTHER HEIST! Kiss the Second Avenue Subway goodbye.
No, tier ONE was pathetic enough ... that the union ALLOWED the wallet-stuffers in office to even DO a tier-2 or beyond was the criminality. I for one got a giant suckle fo the state teat in my situation, but everyone else got SHAFTED ... if you're under 30, put that cup back on, you need it.
And amazingly, the SAME politicos who did this to you got re-elected to STATE office.
The 5.85% is now 2.85% thanks to the NY State Legislature. The pension is really quite generous as pensions go. Whin I retire, I expect to recoupe all of my contributions within the first 2 years. Thereafter, it's all gravy
(The 5.85% is now 2.85% thanks to the NY State Legislature. The pension is really quite generous as pensions go. Whin I retire, I expect to recoupe all of my contributions within the first 2 years.
Thereafter, it's all gravy)
If you're getting gravy, then you must not be in the new Tier V (they don't call it that). The 5.85 is 5.85 for the first 10 years. If you leave before five years, you get the money back. But if you leave after five years, they keep it. You are "vested" but at a very low share of your salary that year, and even modest inflation (ie. 2-3 percent per year) will mean most of your contributions are lost by the time you retire.
There were two actions. One was to up the contribution to 5.85 percent (from three percent) for new folks. That was done in 1995. You got to retire a little younger, but the losses to people leaving before retirement for other jobs meant a big decline in what the city and state were actually providing and putting in. Next they enhanced the pensions -- but only for those already retired and there more than ten years.
The next phase? Take back the ability to go from 5.85 to 2.85 for those who have not already benefitted. It's inevitable.
Even during a BIE, the emergency variable load valve should control the air to the brake cylinders sufficiently to prevent wheels locking up. Contributing factors may be grease or water on the rails or even the grade of the rail, itself.
The answer provided by the person from the MBTA is a fair public relations letter but does not address the points raised by the contact letter. Wheel inspection should be part of your routine maintenance but if wheel truing is also part of routine maintenance, there are some serious problems afoot.
Yep ... couldn't agree more all around. I have seen cylinder locks though and "stuck wheels" - even happened a few times when I worked for the system. Newer cars of course are unlikely to have this problem as much as the older cars did. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there's a groove somewhere on the wheels these days with a rotation detector to ENSURE they're turning.
Now that the redbirds are off to the "real" south ferry, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't many flat wheels left in the system. One afternoon on a layover while I was working the south end, spent an afternoon hanging out in the wheel shop (and this was back in the days of the standards, the R9's, etc) and it was rare that wheels were turned for anything other than replacement truck assemblies. It was fascinating to watch those huge presses in action. :)
The wheel problems on the Red Line are nothing new, the bang-bang has always drowned out the clickity-clack. At least on older equipment, variable load valves were more of a fantasy than a piece of working equipment. The solution for a defect was "Pipe around it!" Emergency consisted of putting the reservoir pressure in the brake cylinder. Another factor encountered on the Red Line was frequent emergency applications, including that made when changing ends at the end of the line. The motorman would often be at the other end of the car waiting for the guard to open the doors by the time his train stopped in the dead end. At those speeds (supposedly 6 mph) an emergency application is sure to lock the wheels. The ATC system was also the culprit in many cases, especially when the operator had the train in manual mode. I suspect that most Red Line flat wheels were caused by operation and not car defects.
Gerry, thanks for the informative explaination. It's nice to know that the flats are likely due to mechanical failure. It supposts my contention that wheel truing should not be part of routine maintenance nor should wheel truing be considered routine maintenance. As to the response to the letter by Lexcie, this was the response that was posted today by lexcie;
Dear Mr Lu,
Thank you for taking the time to write with your observations about the wheels of the Red Line fleet.
In fact, we do true the wheels on a regulat basis using a milling machine (as opposed to a lathe). Wheels are inspoected on a regular schedule and any with flat spots are removed from service as soon as possible.
Every attempt is made to keep the wheels in good shape.
Again, thank you for writing.
Tony Kinahan
I think the response was pure fluff, likely written by a 3rd assistant and designed to passify a casual observer rather than to inform a knowledgable consumer. A person with any rail knowledge would clearly be justified if they felt slighted by such a flip response. Even lexcie would be justified if he got angry.
I don't agree with your statement. One could say your response is flippant andmade without much thought.
MBTA's reply was not intended for an engineer. I think the answer was an appropriate simplification intended for a lay audience. It was not flippant per se. Perhaps, for example, the guy really meant that truing occurs on a regular basis because wheels are found to need it, not that they need it all the time. And it could have been written by someone in a hurry, yes.
Lexcie could write a follow-up email asking for clarification; for example, hopw often, on average does MBTA have to true a set of wheels of a given subway car, etc.
Even PR people have a job to do. As the letters sitting in my file cabinet will attest, some do their jobs very well and with justice.
If you allow your testosterone, instead of your brain, to communicate with them, you deserve whatever you get from them in return.
I'm really sorry you disagree wiyh my statement and find it flip. I won't ask how you respond to people who ask you a serious question in your field of expertise. You did answer one question I had. Knowing that you have a whole file draw of letters such as the one lexcie posted, explains why you are so well informed on the subject matter. You can decide if that was flip enough for you.
I respond to each inquirer at a level I think they can understand. Occasionally I find myself using too much "jargon," so I have to step back and simplify. Occasionally some details may not be immediately pertinent to the answer required. Occasionally, my answer will be too simplistic, and that person will ask for more details, or tell me that he/she understands the jargon - in which case, I'll give that person whatever is desired.
The people at MTA who have answered my questions range from Doug Sussman to all kinds of people in engineering, operations, PR and other functions. If I wanted more details I said so and they shared them with me. At no time did anybody treat me with anything but respect.
Judging from your last two posts, you have something to learn about that...
Obviously, you didn't read the posting from Lexcie that I referred to. From the tone of his response, he seemed less than pleased with the level of the response. I agreed that it was far from satisfactory. Why don't you go back and read Lexcie's second of the two posts on the subject. You seem more interested in pissing on trees than in dealing with the matter at hand.
I did read Lexcie's post. And have said that Lexcie is free to send an amended querie.
Whoever responded to Lexcie did not intend to insult him. I'd say the only person who seemed intent on pissing, Train Dude, in this thread, is you; and you are displeased that I called you on it.
Or maybe it was just venting. Doesn't matter - let's call a truce and move on back to the trains...
Jesus, and I'd only been home for one night (and managed to get my girlfriend on the phone for once), and THIS happens on Subtalk...
OK, my view on the matter is this:
(1) I agree that MBTA has left much to be desired, in that they seem to have the accountability of a communist agency (something I have heard elsewhere), and they are perfectly willing to dress up their product to make it pretty, including great graphics at stations -- way better than that seen on the London Underground, for example. However, their maintenance laps wayyyy behind other equivalent American concerns, such as Cleveland Rapid Transit (although I wouldn't like to compare it to the NYCTA if only because New York is such a special case both in terms of size of the city and the complexity of the system).
(2) Prior to Train Dude's getting involved in this thread, I did sometimes get the impression that he was just interested pissing on trees. However, my respect for him has somewhat grown after his informative posts on the subject. From previous experience though, I know that he has a tendency to talk like an engineer rather than a diplomat -- something which I am occasionally prone to myself.
(3) Given MBTA's attitude, I have decided that they probably know about everything that happens on the system, but either don't have the resources or just plainly couldn't be arsed to sort something out. For example, MBTA buses have engine-housing covers which are just hanging off the back of their buses and they don't care. So, in light of that, there are no reason to ask further questions, as it is only likely to sour my relationship with the MBTA. I don't ever intend to get involved with the MBTA professionally, so I think I can leave them well alone and just use their system like a dumb customer.
Is this OK? Or have I pissed you both off now?
Tekkies are the worst ... all they care about is how the micrometer fits the situation. For what it's worth, understand the mentality so you can see why *I* appreciate Train Dude, even if he whizzes on the third rail often. Design and maintenance folks ENTIRE life revolves around "it's broken, how do I *FIX* this?" ... I live this life too. The only time ANYONE cares what you think is when something's gone horribly wrong and they've run out of both scapegoats AND ideas. So they come to us types who live in a perpetual world of negativity. EVERYTHING is broken and needs to be fixed. Eventually, you become so NEGATIVE in your thinking, that well ... nobody wants to come near you because of the black could that floats over your being ... "Mister BAD NEWS" as political mindsets appoint ya ...
But that's why I appreciate Train Dude despite his social slips ... I can be FAR worse myself ... and you really don't want to "redirect" his energy because that's PRECISELY the mindset it requires to ensure that the car you step on WORKS. Call him anal, call him obsessed, but the energy he's living in DEMANDS the mentality to treat the equipment with the same negative/abusive mindset ... here's why ... when you are a tech type, there ARE NO GRAY AREAS ... a specification is strictly boolean ... PASS/FAIL ... that's it. All things reduce themselves to true/false, right/wrong, pass/fail. I still do that for a living. But yes, there are people whose whole lives are consumed with "what can screw up now?" as their nucleus. And GOOD for us all when our lives depend on what they do for a living.
It's typical of the training of the Japanese mindset (no offense, TD but you've been TQM'd, another pile of organic matter that drove me out of the state) ... I prefer the KOREAN mindset and business philosphy ... called "good enough" ... it works, let's not screw with it any longer, time to start work on the NEXT generation ... the Japanese mindset never lets you get past the here and now since it never ends, but must be a continuing process. The Koreans know when it's time to cut bait in their social and technical lines.
That all said, the little dribs and drabs I read seem to suggest that they'll be perfectly willing to discuss it all with you further, but have decided that what they're doing is "good enough" and that the symptoms you describe have been historical and perhaps in the next car design, aware of the issue, they will expect the manufacturer to meet new specifications that will solve that problem. Just guessing here, but Boston doesn't have the kind of money NYC possesses to piss away on study groups and experts. Smaller cities with a smaller taxbase have that kind of problem.
Give 'em a shot again if you wish - I'm sure you merely were served the "AOL form letter" here ... Americans are used to a lower standard of mental fitness with those whom they correspond with. You might have gotten a "standard droid" page 346 response from a company hired to answer these kinda things with form letters. I think the general advice you've been given overall was quite good - agencies tend to want to keep it simple - putting it in too apologetic, condescending or technical tends to invite more mail and that costs an agency money. Thus, they go with the most generic "See? I've written back to you - you're important now go away" in hopes of as Jean Luc Picard was fond of saying, "Make it so" ...
(no offense, TD but you've been TQM'd, another pile of organic matter that drove me out of the state) ... I prefer the KOREAN mindset and business philosphy ... called "good enough" ... it works, let's not screw with it any longer, time to start work on the NEXT generation ...
So was that a compliment or something else? Actually, I took a course in TQM in May and June with Fred Brodzinski (a truly brilliant man in my opinion). I found that much of the TQM philosophy was compatible with my own beliefs and I actually tried to introduce (or am trying to introduce) TQM into my operation. Reason: It's harder to stay at the top than it is to get to the top. We are at the top. That's because we never say 'good enough'. We repair it before we run it. A simple mindset that results in an August MDBF more than double any other shop and a 12 month moving average MDBF nearly double our nearest rival. Call it bragging or call it pride. We only know one way to do it.
As to the subject letter, I received a similar letter from the county government on a totally different type of matter. The author of the letter must have been paid by the number of words and lack of for its lack of meaningful content. When I called, I got some 3rd level beaurocrat who's only comment was, "I've sure that's not what you wanted to hear." However, when I expressed my true feelings on the subject, I got the attention of the County Executive. Don't sell rightous indignation short.
Whoops, no slight intended to YOU at all ... in that previous message, I was trying to explain why technical folks tend to come off ungracefully to folks that don't live in the mindset that folks like yourself and I are immersed in the negative as to what we do for a living, and it can affect the personality as others may see.
As to TQM, I do indeed find it to be a poorly conceived notion, a procedural substitution for good management. Let me put it to you this way - state agencies did TQM in the late 80's/early 90's and it was a miserable failure. I don't have the spare time to go into all of the nuances of why it failed so I'll just generalize.
A *GOOD* manager makes sure that their people have all the tools they need to perform their job, a respectful work environment where each knows that they genuinely are valued and noticed, and most importantly are given the knowledge they need to do their jobs properly. Once all this is done, a GOOD manager LEAVES THEM ALONE to do their job, doesn't hang over their shoulder constantly telling them how to do their job, and commends them when they don't HAVE TO BE supervised. Be good to those who work for you and they'll be good to you. When they know they can come to you with a question or a problem and they'll get an answer, then you've closed the quality circle.
The "TQM" thing on the other hand results in a lot of meetings (nobody's doing any work during these), you get the posturing of coworkers against one another, hurt feelings, and simulated feelings of superiority among some. We saw TQM reduce a professional group of technicians and engineers into backstabbing, bickering, grievance-filing children ... but to each his own - if you can make TQM work, there'll be a statue erected to ya outside the Municipal building. :)
But no slights towards you intended at all ... I've seen more than enough of your motivations here and there to be quite impressed by ya. Your public relations skills? Well, doesn't much matter does it? :)
(no offense, TD but you've been TQM'd, another pile of organic matter that drove me out of the state) ... I prefer the KOREAN mindset and business philosphy ... called "good enough" ... it works, let's not screw with it any longer, time to start work on the NEXT generation ...
So was that a compliment or something else? Actually, I took a course in TQM in May and June with Fred Brodzinski (a truly brilliant man in my opinion). I found that much of the TQM philosophy was compatible with my own beliefs and I actually tried to introduce (or am trying to introduce) TQM into my operation. Reason: It's harder to stay at the top than it is to get to the top. We are at the top. That's because we never say 'good enough'. We repair it before we run it. A simple mindset that results in an August MDBF more than double any other shop and a 12 month moving average MDBF nearly double our nearest rival. Call it bragging or call it pride. We only know one way to do it.
As to the subject letter, I received a similar letter from the county government on a totally different type of matter. The author of the letter must have been paid by the number of words and for its lack of meaningful content. When I called, I got some 3rd level beaurocrat who's only comment was, "I've sure that's not what you wanted to hear." However, when I expressed my true feelings on the subject, I got the attention of the County Executive. Don't sell rightous indignation short.
No, I'm not mad at you at all. I'm not even p'od at Train Dude. Train Dude knows a hell of a lot about trains and equipment and I learn a lot from him. I get annoyed at his occasional lack of social graces, or maybe I get the feeling he doesn't think anyone who wears a white shirt and tie on the job knows anything. I know where that comes from.
There are times when my patience for people referring to others disrespectfully and unjustly is less than at other times.
I've been wrong on more than one occasion, too(some of you, Selkirk in particular, may remember my posts about measuring the speed of light), and I survived the egg on my face (even wiped it off!). I learned some lessons. We all can.
Hey, I remember all that nonsense (as you expected) ... so? I sure don't think any less of someone for getting the test question wrong. Hell, I've been out of the system there for more than 30 years. I was good at what I did when I did it, but when I washed out of da "ta" I moved on, lived a much happier life, and am still alive to prove it. Heh.
Don't let the nonsense get you down, stop taking life so seriously and BEWARE of those who do ... SUBTALK ain't the job, We all come here to have fun. As long as we can respect each other, forgive each other a brainfart, somehow we'll all survive and this MoFo will reach the terminal, even if we have to beat it with a stick to keep it rolling. :)
Amen to that!
Of course, I like a free-swinging debate. I'm the type who likes to get in the ring, swing away mercilessly, and when it's over, hang up the gloves, grab my fellow mental pugilist and go get dinner.
Heh. I'd just rather shoot the sheet myself ... for me, subtalk is a potty break from writing code and dealing with grumpy people who think we're going to screw them just like Microsoft. Oh how surprised they are when they have to deal with ... *moi* ... when they have a problem and write a complaint about our stuff. Heh. They get the same person we all see on subtalk and they just don't know WHAT to do with an answer that WORKS. Problem solved. HUH?!?!?!? :)
That's why I appreciate Train Dude as I said in anothe thread, we think alike with different job titles ... something's screwed? We FIX. Taa-daa. Barumpum.
So what do you actually do, SelkirkTMO? You seem to have done every job on planet earth: operate a train for MTA, run for Conrail, write code...?
Actually I am kinda like that too, I've done too many different types of jobs, just never been able to hold one for long. Which is why I'm back at grad school.
Lexcie
Lexcie, that's quite similar to my position too. Right now I'm not sure what I'm going to do next.
-Robert King
I was NEVER employed by Conrail ... only rail job I EVER had was as a conductor for the NYCTA for about four months (motor school included in part of this) and motorman for about the same ("kewl" car included here too) ... I happened to come into the system at an interesting time when senior motormen were retiring at the rate of ten a week. So basically, we got blow through there like insulation to move up to the cab since there were literally no takers at the time. I'm surprised the TA wasn't hiring from the street THEN given how fast we came off the street, got our GLOVES and then got our HANDLES then.
Just wanted to keep it straight, only reason I did ConRail was that Gonerail was pretty lax in "enforcement" and I'd go on runs with my townsfolk ... pretty much "I'm too DRUNK to take it to Amsterdam, you run the locomotive and wake me up when we're there because you kept me UP all afternoon and now I've gotten the damned phone call." Plying freight crews with hard likker almost guaranteed you the ability to run a loco a few years ago. As long as the BLE brother was propped up in the cab as the unit passed a tower with working perimeter lights. Heh.
Been up way too long ... forgot the REST of your question, I work for my wife now that I've given the Paturkey farm the high hard one. She runs a software company out here in moocow country that concentrates on internet privacy and security. She runs the business, I write the code. If folks run into anomolies, I also do customer support for them so that I can *fix* the code ... alas, most of our code is consumed in dancing under, around and beside OTHER software company's code. And what THEY accept as "ready to ship gold." But from this "you screwed the code, now you go and explain it to the customer," it's every possible incentive in the world to fix it, just so I don't have to hear the complaining. Nice tight closed "responsibility loop" ... "you did it, you explain it to the wigs and customers" ... nobody wants to sit in THAT cab, so we make things work the first time. :)
Hey, I really fit in with you guys!
My career is like a drunk walk. You know the problem from math class - a man takes a pitcher of lager down the old gullet, now you figure out where he lands after x number of steps.
I started out a communications major, studied computer programming an switched to aerospace, did consulting, tutoring and medical research, finished medical school and a residency while doing programming projects with a friend, did a fellowship in medical computer systems, practiced part time for the feds on a disaster response team, went to the CDC, and now, after an MBA, am doing medical informatics and public health consulting. And trying to start a new company.
Do you think I could take the T/O exam and see if MTA would take me?
heh, well here's my story. A music major at high school, I did management/played the violin for a few concerts, but I wanted to become a programmer when I grew up; then I went to college to do physics, but graduated with a psychology degree with a minor in history and philosophy of sciences. Did my internship in an infrastructure management firm then I went to work for a commuter railroad in scheduling. Now I'm at grad school. I have no idea what kinda job I would really want and wouldn't get bored with.
I am never too sure which side to put "trains" under -- pleasure or business?
Well here is my background, Corporate Paralegal 7 years,
BA in Social Studies and Minor Aviation Business Administration.
At the present time I am one week from getting out of training and on the rails as an Assistant Conductor with the LIRR.
What an eclectic bunch!
I would put trains under both business and pleasure - for me, at least.
I know Tony Kinehan and I think he would definitely know almost anything, if not he knows people who would. They're definitely on top of things--I don't think your suggestion may have any impact unless it points out a particular problem they were *not* already aware of.
The issue of the wheel alloy on 01800 cars has been discussed in the Boston Globe, and Tony was the line chief at the time.
/*As for Amtrak's wheelflats, they are nowhere near as bad as what I hear on MBTA.*/
I've been on good and bad cars on Amtrak. They've gotten better over the last few years, but 4 years ago they were worse than the LIRR with them.
/* I suppose MBTA might make the argument that since their railcars are so light, the amount it would cost to turn the wheels is more than amount it costs to replace the rails when cracks develop.*/
Maybe. It's a customer quality issue too. The last time i was on the Red line, i couldn't hear myself think, that's how bad it was.
/* Maybe someday someone will study what the optimal interval for wheel turning is, although the economics of this will surely depend on how often you can afford to take train out of service: it is a lot easier to do this on MBTA (turn their wheels on Sundays) than it is on Amtrak Intercity (which is a 7-days operation). */
But ideally, someone should find out *why* these wheels are doing it in the first place, and fix THAT.
Fix the symptom, you don't fix the problem. Fix the problem, you fix the problem AND the symptom.
"/* Maybe someday someone will study what the optimal interval for wheel turning is, although the economics of this will surely depend on how often you can afford to take train out of service: it is a lot easier to do this on MBTA (turn their wheels on Sundays) than it is on Amtrak Intercity (which is a 7-days operation). */ "
As the operator of a railcar maintenance facility where wheel truing is done on-site, I strenuously disagree with this statement. The writer of this statement shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem of flat wheels and it's causes. The writer would have you think that flat wheels were the norm and wheel truing should be a scheduled maintenance issue (done at some optimal interval). This is definitely not the case. Flat wheels are usually a symptom of a problem in one of the other railcar systems. Most often on MU units using dynamic brake, the problem is a result of failure in the lockout magnet valve, permitting a pneumatic brake to be applied during a dynamic brake. This causes wheels to lock and skid. The fault could be simply electrical, pneumatic, or even electronic logic. However, the problem should be addressed before the wheels are cut.
Other causes of flat wheels could be related to propulsion, emergency brake application, excessive grease on the rails from flange lubricators or even rain, snow or fallen leaves. Flat wheels, in the extreme, can be a symptom of a faulty journal bearing, gearbox failure or a traction motor armature failure.
In any event, the trucks on NYCT cars are designed to be replaced on a 6-year SMS cycle. The fact is that for every 1" of flat spots on a wheel, roughly 1/16" - 1/8" of tread must be removed to true the wheel. Hence, for the standard 3" - 4" flat, you may need to remove a significant amount of tread and a considerable percentage of the planned life for that wheel. Therefore, we do not permit cars to have repeat failures in this area. Additionally, you can't simply cut one wheel. There are standards for maximum variations between wheels on the same axle, axles on the same truck and between axles of both trucks. Therefore, cutting one pair of wheels may result in cutting 8 wheels. Cutting a wheel is not done in a maintenance vacuum. There is no optimal period for routine wheel truing. The writer of the highlighted passage apparently is unaware of this.
The problem of flat wheels on the AMTRAK coach fleet is a seperate and unique issue and should not be lumped in with MU equipment problems.
Hey, keep it up, I appreciate that correction. My impression of wheel flats had always been that they result from engineers mismanaging the brakes, or the engineers over-using sanders (which results in worse wear once the train begins to slide). In the MU fleet that I worked with, they had disc instead of tread brakes, so the flatspots problem is particularly acute, since the disc brakes does not serve also to clean the tread as the braking is in progress. I would suggest in these diesel hydraulic MU's (without dynamic brakes), wheel truing is indeed a routine maintenance issue. I now understand that this is very different from wheelflats on the latest EMU fleet.
Most of the flat spots stem from the ATO system. If the train receives any fluctuation in code, it dumps. The 1800's have a wheel alloy that tends to show more flat spots (so did the Acella!). Sometimes operators dump the train too soon at the bumpers when they change ends.
I'm sure anyone who ride the Red has experienced this (ATO code failure) coming into Charles MGH southbound at some time or other.
"I'm sure anyone who ride the Red has experienced this (ATO code failure) coming into Charles MGH southbound at some time or
other. "
How about daily?
At Charles, it's the train recieving a 0-code due to congestion ahead. Operators are instructed to operate with the controller at full power, although some drivers do operate at less when they can anticipate congestion--to avoid stops and starts. Any ATC line will do this, especially if the signal configuration can't handle what's being run on it.
Charles-MGH is one of those spots where failure to operate properly resulted in the loss of at least 3 cars. The signal there (back in the days) was a Rule 59A, which would not clear until Park St. was empty due to a long curving downgrade in the Beacon Hill Tunnel. The portal and its momentary blinding effect was at the top of the curving grade and the transition from light to dark was very abrupt. One day an official was flagging trains by the signal with the trip tied down. By the time he was through car 01427 was shaped somewhat like a rainbow and an 01600 car was about four feet shorter than it started. Since then the MBTA has been extremely careful in these situations, sometimes to the point of going overboard. 01427's mate 01426 was able to be repaired and mated with an available 01400 but since there were no other damaged 01600 cars (and still aren't) both cars were retired. The bottom line in the whole mess is that Red Line cars often have to slow down with no visible reason, but sometimes the ones you can't see are more important than the ones you can.
Sadly, the old signal system at least allowed you to approach a red signal at reasonable speed, and often gave you a look ahead to see whether it was a occupied station ahead or a train in the next block. You could give the passengers a smoother ride by controlling your speed and watching the signals ahead. The ATC system slows the train down to a crawl, and then allows it to accellerate to 25 MPH only to slow it again as you approach the next block with a stop code.
Gerry--
Thanks for the post. I have heard of the big 1970(?) accident. As no one from the time of the Red Line's current ATC system design seems to be around (were you possibly there?) at the MBTA, it's been hard to figure out why they did what they did between Charles and Park. Perhaps you can shed some light.
The evidence I have doesn't suggest that the 1970 accident had anything to do with today's poor allowable headways. Perhaps you have more information. I, and several others, have guessed that the long control lines in the area of the Park Street interlocking were intended to restrict flow through the interlocking, thereby supposedly avoiding cases of trains stuck on top of a crossover. It would have made sense in a case like Copley, but not at Park Street where crossovers are not normal moves and the interlocking is not a flat junction but just crossovers. The newer automatic interlockings on the Red Line, including Park and Davis (off the top of my head) are set up with long control lines. This signal design criteria is not safety-based, but operationally based (or supposedly so). That's how *I* was taught signal design--but I questioned it and still do.
The real kicker is that the safe braking distance from the end of platform at Park Street towards Downtown Crossing overlaps by 25' or so with the Downtown Xing platform. That's why a train cannot berth in Park Street while the next train is occupying the Downtown Crossing track circuit. It's a waste, because a workaround involving a simple wire loop can allow safe entry into Park Street even while Downtown Xing is occupied, potentially cutting over 60 seconds off the minimum headway and preventing a lot of unnecessary starts and stops.
I don't suppose you know why a bagged wayside signal and trip-stop still exist just south of Park Street?
Agreed re: ATC and the quality of the ride, but the MBTA cannot and will not go back to wayside.
If you study the control lines, then you can anticipate what's in the track circuit in front of you and prepare yourself (though it would be easier if you just had a signal head to look at). This is the case at almost all of the entries and exits to downtown area Red Line stations. Motorpersons could be trained to avoid those situations where they come to a halt half-way in or out of a platform, just by reading the code where they are.
Okay, there were alot of long subway lines in the 60's and 70's. I want to know what the longest subway line ever was. Was it the CC/C rush hour run from Bedford Park Boulevard to Far Rockaway? The E train from 179 Street to Lefters Boulevard? QJ from 168 Street to Coney Island? So out of all of the subway lines which was the longest subway line?
IIRC during the many permutations and switcheroos of the IND Fulton Line, the E ran for a while from 179th-Jamaica to Far Rockaway, and this was over 32 miles.
Before that I believe the longest was the D from 205th to Coney Island via Culver, about 26 miles. Which, FWIW, was the same as the country's longest city trolley line.
here's a stupid question...what exactly does IIRC mean already, i've seen oit all over the bopard and have no idea what anyone's talking about!!
IIRC = If I recall correctly.
IINM=If I (am) not mistaken
A decent list of common abbreviations.
THANKS., I NEEDED THAT. HERE I THOUGH IT WAS A ROMAN NUMERAL 2 AND THOUGHT YOU MEANT THE 2nd ROCKAWAY C TRAIN!!! LOL!!!
I believe that the A train from 207 St to Far Rockaway is about 32 miles in length; when the C ran to Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx, a combined C-transfer-A ride was nearly 40 miles in length (source: TA Facts and Figures from several years ago).
The E from 179th to Far Rockaway was the longest. Do you consider some old PE Trolley Linesa ran over 60 miles from LA to Redlands
Those old trolleys covered a lot of distance.
What's the longest single transit bus route in LA? Is it the 460 (don't remember the exact line number) Disneyland Express (downtown LA-Norwalk-Anaheim-Disneyland)? The 560 from the northern Valley to LAX?
The old 60 from Los Angeles to San Bernardino,-Redlands it is now a different bus company.
That E run was something like 36 miles.
when the C ran to Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx, a combined C-transfer-A ride was nearly 40 miles in length
When the (C) train ran between Bedford Park Blvd, The Bronx and Rockaway Park/B 116th St, Queens, it was at least as long as that on one train. Plus it covered all four boroughs.
:-) Andrew
You can still do the ride, of course, but now it's the D or B on the Bronx end, which, strictly is not the same line family...
I think Andrew's point was that the C itself -- no transfers necessary -- ran from Bedford Park Boulevard (rush hours only) to Rockaway Park, making all local stops the whole way. This wasn't all that long ago -- I think the C was trimmed to Euclid at the same time the N bridge tease began in 1990, although I may be off by a year or two.
I think Andrew's point was that the C itself -- no transfers necessary -- ran from Bedford Park Boulevard (rush hours only) to Rockaway Park, making all local stops the whole way.
Right you are!
:-) Andrew
As always.
(Humor me. My birthday's this week.)
I think Andrew's point was that the C itself -- no transfers necessary -- ran from Bedford Park Boulevard (rush hours only) to Rockaway Park, making all local stops the whole way. This wasn't all that long ago -- I think the C was trimmed to Euclid at the same time the N bridge tease began in 1990, although I may be off by a year or two.
I wonder if anyone other than a railfan regularly rode it from end to end.
Don't know about that. It had to be exhausting for conductors when the R-10s ran there.
I don't know, but I know someone who came close. He was starting at High Street and I had given him directions to take the A to 59th Street and transfer there. He (a) thought I had told him to take the C (no big deal) and (b) didn't realize that he should check the signs before boarding to determine which way the train was going. He ended up riding a C from High Street to Rockaway Park and all the way back to 59th Street. I'm surprised he didn't realize something was amiss around Broad Channel.
How long did a run take?
Jeez. I don't know. I never rode the whole line from beginning to end. Probably very few people did.
Still nice to have, though.
:-) Andrew
I would have thought it would bew boreing until it got to Queens. I would have taken the D to 59th and changed to the A and go Exp
Do leave me hanging there; I'm on the edge of my seat. I would guess that the two top contenders are Chicago's Broadway-State line and Philadelphia's Germantown line. The winner is: ???
I rode the Germantown line in Philly from end to end back in 1990 but as long as it was I would guess that the Chicago line was longer if for no other reason than that city covers more ground.
Eric Dale Smith
Germantown was advertised as the longest, at 26 miles. Of course, I don't know if the claim was made after Broadway-State closed.
But of course, Germantown might actually reopen full-length. It's not impossible yet.
PE had many longer lines in its hey day. The LA Blue Line is quite long also
But PE was mostly interurbans, as is the Blue Line, effectively. Are there any longer city lines--street running, stop at the corner type lines.
PE had interurbans, plus local services. Venice Short Line 20 miles to SM, Santa Monica Blvd to Santa Monica, The Valley lines out to Canoga Pk, plus many others. Get your selves some books on the PE, plenty of them, also the NarrowGague LATL had some long routes. The old 5 from Hawthorne to Eagle Rock
Well, that may well be. But we still have the oft-repeated contention that the 23 Line in Philly, at 26 miles, is/was the longest city trolley line in the country.
Any specific examples to refute this?
My thought is that even a line like the Media Line (which isn't all that long) wouldn't qualify as a city line, in that it has street running, then a p-r-o-w with stations, then street running again, but in a totally different municipality from where it started--in fact such operations weren't uncommon for interurbans.
My thought is that even a line like the Media Line (which isn't all that long) wouldn't qualify as a city line, in that it has street running, then a p-r-o-w with stations, then street running again, but in a totally different municipality from where it started--in fact such operations weren't uncommon for interurbans.
The Media and Sharon Hill lines, as well as several others now abandoned, were always considered interurban.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What about PAthetic's Gateway to Library route ?
Chicago's #36 Broadway-State streetcar through route was about 25 miles from Clark and Devon to 119th and Morgan. The #22 Clark-Wentworth through route was about 20 miles.
This may help, from the MTA website --
Longest Rides
* The longest ride with no change of trains: the A train from 207th Street in Manhattan to Far Rockaway in Queens (31 miles).
* The longest ride with a transfer: the 2 train from 241st Street in the Bronx, with a transfer to the Far Rockaway-bound A Train (more than 38 miles).
* The longest ride between stations: the A train between the Howard Beach/JFK Airport and Broad Channel stations in Queens (3.5 miles).
It doesn't help too much because we're going into history. We know the A from 207 to Far Rckwy is the longest today, but what was the longest ever? This would be the E from 179-Far Rockwy.
The C was the longest for some time though... And it was a local through it's entire route unlike the E which always made express in Queens.
N/W Bwy
Far Rock is nothing. The CTA Blue Line goes all the way from Central Park to California. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
"The CTA Blue Line goes all the way from Central Park to California. :-)"
REALLY?
Yes. Look at any CTA map.
-- David
Chicago, IL
And it only takes 2 stops to get there.
Are you sure your not talking about Amtrak? heehhe
N/W
One thing I noticed when I rode Metro was the excessively long headways in between trains. I'm sure there's enough room in the system to add more trains and decrease the headways, so why doesn't the WMATA do that? And also I noticed many lines run only four car trains most of the time, including rush hours. I realise that correcting these problems would require buying more trains, but the WMATA seems to be buying a lot of trains now, so I'm sure there will be enough to do this.
They should try correcting these problems before going to an uncomfortable bench seating design.
Oops... wrong thread!!! :) Please disregard!!!
yeah, I thought something was out of place...
Any information on safetran systems corparation?
Besides the fact that tt sucks, it is an amalgimation of many other signal signal companies. I used to have a chart. I believe one of the main divisions is GRS (General Railway Signal). US&S Co. usually makes a superior and higher quality product.
Does safetran have a website or are they defunct?
Safetran is Safetran. They are not part of GRS although they
make many former GRS products under cross-license agreement
such as type B and K relays. GRS was absorbed by Alstom.
As for the original poster's question,
did you think of trying www.safetran.com ??
As far as I have heard, GRS was merged with several other companies to form Safetran. I need to find the chart.
Safetran is not defunct after all!
On the new R-143's, are they the same configuration as the R-110B's being 67' long? I know that they have longitudinal seating like the R-42 order and back to the R-27's. And does anyone know about a possible R-160 order for the other B division mainlines?
The R143s will be SIXTY (60) FEET long not 67 feet; and from what I have heard, they will resemble their R142/R142A brethren inside. The only difference MIGHT be the seat color, and that's not a given.
Don't have any word on the R160 yet; too soon.
wayne
Whats a R-160?
The cars which will eventually be replacing the R40, R40M and R42.
wayne
The Capital Program(in the cars category) says that the R143 will replace the R-40's, R-42's, R-32's, R-38's. The cost says that it is 1.277 billion dallors.
Could it be that they are replacing more cars then we thought? Or is that they are replacing R-32,38,40,42s that need to be replaced? Maybe their bodies can be recycled?
er, are you sure you don't mean the R160?
I believe that the 212-car R143 fleet will be an add-to, rather than a replacement for.
wayne
the r160 is a replacement set and r143s are just high tech for the l
r142man
The R-143's are the car that will finally put the B div. on a respectable car amount. (R-27/30 was never replaced)
its true
You could almost say the R143s are replacing the R27's and R30's, eight or nine years after the fact.
Good going, MTA!
:-D Andrew
The R32's are not being replaced for at least another 15 years. The other models will begin to be replaced with the next large order after the R143 contract.
15 more years of walking on those spongy floors? They'll never make it.
The floors are currently being replaced.
Yeah...also on the R-68A's--trying to make them look like they imported alllll of that marble to replace the ORIGINAL linoleum floors.
Only 16 R68As have them due to water damage from the '80s. The R32 is getting new floors exclusively.
I guess you only ride the Phase II's on the N. The Phase I's have been replaced already. Honest, check out an R train with R32 cars. You'll find some! The Phase II's will begin to be replaced soon.
The R32s on the R are phase I? So they'll start to replace the floors on the N, eh?
Phase I are also on the C.
Not all but a goodly number. The C has all phase I's. These floors are in the process of being replaced. The E (and R) have a mixture of Phase I's & II's. All their Phase I's already had their floors replaced. The N has all phase II's.
That's why I've never seen any N's with the new floors.
But, I have a question:
On the Pre-GOH R-32's, was there any difference between the R-32A's and R-32's?
I think the difference was that one had axiflow fans, the other did not.
What makes axiflow fans different from regular ones I forget.
Well, I do know that the last 10 cars were delivered with BUDD Pioneer III trucks. Interestingly, those cars were held out of service, cannabalized for parts and then had Cast trucks put back in their place. Typical TA procedure during that period.
Actually, it was only the last 4 R-32s, cars #3946-3949, that were delivered with the Budd Pioneer trucks. Those trucks remained in service for until 1976 according to my engineering documents. As for the cars havingf been held out of service, the lifetime milage numbers do not support that hypothesis.
>>As for the cars havingf been held out of service, the lifetime milage numbers do not support that hypothesis.<<
When I say: "held out of service", I mean for a short period of time, not for an R-110B period of time.
IIRC, 3947-8 were long term O/S after suffering fire damage south of Neck Rd. on the Brighton Line in the early 70's. Shortly thereafter, 3946 and 3949 appeared as a b*****d pair and ran that way for a number of years.
That could be. The AS400 memory only allows us to check back a few years when reviewing a car's maintenance history. However, the car's lifetime milage is listed and those cars life-miles are in line with most of the R-32s. Keep in mind that after nearly 40 years, many of the R-32s have required long-term care at one time or another.
Is the listed mileage since the cars entered service, or is it since the cars RE-entered service after being overhauled? I got hold of a car history report in the mid-1980s, before the R-32s were overhauled, and the mileage on 3946-3949 was WAY below that of the rest of the R-32s. After 35 years (or so) of service, at around 50,000 miles per year, the cars should be up around 1.7-1.8 million miles.
David
Fleet milage became an issue recently - unrelated to this thread. When checking the R-32s, there were none that stood out with exceptionally high or exceptionally low milage in the revenue-active fleet. Most of the R-32s are around the 1.5 million mark so you're pretty much on target with your estimate. I'm on vacation for the next few weeks but will be doing some rail-fanning tomorrow. I'll try to check the milage if I can get onto a TA system terminal.
Where are R32A's and R32's used?
What does GOH stand for?
Railfan Pete.
GOH- General Overhaul, when a car fleet goes out for re-building.
R-32A, R-32. When the R-32's were initially delivered, they were divided up into the R-32 and R-32A order. Both orders were virtually the same, and both were from BUDD.
However, when the cars went out for re-building, they went regardless of whether they were R-32 or R-32A. Since the rebuilding was done in 2 phases, the R-32's are presently called either R-32 phase I or R-32 phase II. Cars that were previously R-32A are in both classes, same for the R-32. Hence, R-32/32A is no longer used.
10 R-32's were overhauled by GE.
On numerous Arrow III MU cars in their vestibule walls, I find a black and gold panel which states that this car has been overhauled by a .... company. (I don't know what it is, I don't remember).
And another one states that this car is under lease of another company, which I don't remember.
Can anyone tell me what the deal is with these Arrow III MU trains being overhauled and leased?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Since people seem to be ignoring:
On numerous Arrow III MU cars in their vestibule walls, I find a black and gold panel which states that this car has been overhauled by a .... company. (I don't know what it is, I don't remember).
And another one states that this car is under lease of another company, which I don't remember.
Can anyone tell me what the deal is with these Arrow III MU trains being overhauled and leased?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
An hour, and you have to repost?
Maybe if people don't respond within a few days, then you can repost, but an HOUR?
All I can say is that they were built by General Electric(?) and rebuilt by Asea Brown Boveri. As far as leasing goes, ask someone else.
Cleanairbus
carlwal@hotmail.com
hybridbus@aol.com
The R-32As were #3350-3649 while the R-32 were 3650-3949. Both had a mix of GE & Westinghouse and GE propulsion equipment and both had a mix of Midland-Ross & Vapor door equipment. The only basic difference other than the contract number was in the interior appointments such as the interior lighting. After overhaul - the differences between the R-32 Phase I and R-32 Phase II were far more significant and clearly defined than the pre-overhaul R-32 & R-32A.
According to the R32 section on rolling stock in this site, R32's were 3350 to 3649 and R32A's were 3650 to 3949, but I always thought it was the opposite. They all looked the same to me except that 3800 to 3949 had the "other" kind of fan covers which always seemed to be full of black schmutz all summer. The last 4 cars (3946 to 3949) had the Budd Pioneer Trucks. I saw them in service very rarely. Eventually they were replaced by the regular trucks. These were the cars which got me interested in railfaning and even today are my favorite subway cars. The GE cars were 3350 to 3499 & 3650 to 3799. The Westinghouse cars were 3500 to 3649 & 3800 to 3949. They went out for GOH in a manner of worst car first, best car last. Some needed more work than others at M/K. Some cars of a married pair needed more body work than others so some cars are now mismated.
The lower car numbers are the R32A according to my master list AND also Page 2 of "Passenger Car Data 1947-1968", which is the ultimate authority being an official source.
#3800-3949 not only had the "other fans" (Peripheral Discharge Air Diffusers, also known as the R38/R40 fans) AND they presaged the R38 and Slant R40 by sporting back-lighted advertising panels.
wayne
Between the summer time schmutz around the fans covers and the backlit car body lights/advertising panels which acculmated a lot of dirt, cars 3800 to 3949 were poorly lit compared to the others.
I've been an R-32 fan ever since my very first subway ride on that shiny new N train in July of 1965. Now if they could only bring back the blue doors and roller curtains on the bulkheads....
Never saw them in any other decor, PLEASE don't show me pix of what's become of them. ALL doors blue (sides and fronts), drop down that panel, twirl that hook. Roll curtains are out, fatal error in 153 is in. :)
I couldn't agree more. Since the MTA colors are blue & white, it would be nice to have the color of the cars reflect this. But their policy seems to be that the cars are more like silver bullets. But HELLO, ever since the cars have been slowed down, they are hardly as fast as bullets.
"The Capital Program(in the cars category) says that the R143 will replace the R-40's, R-42's, R-32's, R-38's"
Stop the presses !!
Originally the cars to be replaced by the R-160 was the R38,40,42 and 10 GE overhauled R-32s.
Now it has been reported on this board that those 10 GE overhauled cars are getting new ACs. The M&K overhauled R-32s are safe for now and will be plying the rails after those cars are gone.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-160, from current available information, will be, engineering wise, an R143 with some improvements..
I've already seen a few of these R-143 sections on a new track--used solely for testing--on the Rockaway subway line (between the end of the first bridge over the bay and the causeway to Broad Channel)
They do resemble their R-142/A cousins with the major exception that the front signs are side-roll and not digital like the 142's--probably because it's more feasible to keep that practice going.
An addendum to my last post:
According to inside sources, the 143's are being assigned to the BMT Eastern Division (J, M, Z, and L lines) to replace (or augment) the current rolling stock being used for these lines.
The reason for the assignment is because these cars would fit into the shorter platforms that were built for these elevated (and subway for the L) stations.
(Correct me if I'm wrong--but I think the J and Z platforms in certain sections date back to before the subway was even built.)
I'm not sure, but I think the TA has finally gotten around to replacing some/most/all of those platforms (but not necessarily the rest of the stations in querstion).
I know they do resemble the 142's but if you look at the marker light placement, notice that they are in a diagonal position, and not in the vertical placement like the 142's. I did now know that these cars have the curtain roll sign placement though. Remember the 110B's, they had the roll sign in the front with the digital signs on the side and on the insides. Guess they are doing a similarity to the MK R-32's.
Something like that--actually the opposite...the roll sign in front, the digital signs on the outside (and inside, like the 110-B's and 142/A's)
Which is like the post-GOH R44 and R46.
:-) Andrew
The text write-ups for the Blue Line and Orange Line are now complete, which include brief tours of O'Hare and Midway airports respectively. Also included are new photos of:
The soon-to-be-rebuilt Douglas branch of the Blue LineThe Chicago Avenue subway stop on the Blue Line (The first subway photos I've taken, with the help of a digital camera that my boss mistakenly left in my car after work)The new station house at UIC-Halsted on the Blue Line
Photos of the new Conservatory stop on the Lake Street branch of the Green Line and of the abandoned Paulina "L" bridge over the C&NW viaduct will be coming soon.
The Green Line pages are still a work in progress (hopefully to be completed within the next couple days), and the grand finale, the Loop, will be forthcoming soon. It is my hope to have them all done before the Chicago Field Trip begins this Friday.
Check it out:
www.nycsubway.org > American Transit Systems > Chicago Transit: The CTA
Let me know what you think!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Very nice, Dave!
Permit me an ignorant question: Has CTA restored service to that part of the Loop shut down when a building collapsed?
Has CTA restored service to that part of the Loop shut down when a building collapsed?
Yes, that part of the Loop has been back in service for several months now. No building actually collapsed. Rather, the city claims that chunks of terra cotta on the building's facade had become dangerously unstable, forcing the city to erect a protective canopy over a portion of the L and Randolph Street. This section of the Loop was only shut down for a few days while the city built the canopy.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thank you.
Photos of the new Conservatory stop on the Lake Street branch of the Green Line and of the abandoned Paulina "L" bridge over the C&NW viaduct will be coming soon.
Those are now online. Enjoy!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Excellent! Thank you.
Coming home from a bus/railfanning trip in New Orleans for a week by plane, my Delta MD88 went from NJ through Staten Island up Brooklyn's 4th Avenue up the West Side of Manhattan up the West Side of the Bronx. Then we turned and went across the Bronx and about 3000 feet up I was able to make out an R142 #2 train by the front. The #2 was clear. In case you're interested we went over to the Pelham side of the Bronx and then across the Triboro and landed in LaGuardia. By the way, the number of feet up is my estimation.
well its very bright you can see it almost 4000 ft away maybe
I just uploaded a digital movie clip of SBK N1 pulling the D-Type consist through the 38th St. Yard in Brooklyn. File size approximately 1.3MB (I think it's worth the download). http://www.trainweb.org/nyrail/nyct/sbk/SBK_N1_D-Type_1.mpg. More photos and movie clips of the rest of the trip will be online soon!
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
WELL worth the d/l! Thank you.
Any others you might wish to share?
Did you add the sound after the fact?
Dan,
Very nice. It would have been nicer if there was more of the D-types in the shots.
Well... they had a couple of photo stops but there were so many people that it was nearly impossible to get a good shot at the photo stops. Marcy Avenue was totally overcrowded, and they also stopped at Fresh Pond Rd. but there's a big building at the north end and only a couple people could shoot around it at a time... they could have picked better photo locations for the stops early in the trip. Or skipped them altogether and done the interesting part of the trip first.
I was curious about something what were the the original IRT assignments say from about 1915 on. for example what lines had the HI v's composites and Low V's or did they use some EL cars from the 3 and 2nd avenue EL's I hope someone has a answer.I was always interested about the old equipment.And how long were the composites and the HIv's were in service.I remember the Low V's in their final years on the Third Ave EL, but I was too young for the HiV's.
The Composites were banished to the els in 1916 when a law banning wooden equipment from the subway went into effect.
The Gibbs Hi-Vs ran on local routes only, and in later years were placed on the ends of a train of newer cars. They would have been perfect for the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle since their manual end doors could simply be left closed.
There weren't really any "Car Assignments" per se until there were different types of cars.
There were no real changes until the Flivvers arrived by 1916, which kicked the Composites over to the Els by PSC order. When on the IRT Subway lines the Composites and steel cars were mixed. The manual doors were not an issue until much later. MUDC was installed on some models in the 1920s or so.
In a nutshell, the various car types were distributed thus in the 1930s:
Gibbs, Deck Roof, Steel Hi-Vs on 7th Ave.-Broadway Local, 7th Ave.-Lenox Local, 7th Ave.-Broadway Express & 42 Street Shuttle.
Gibbs & Steel Hi-Vs on Lexington-Pelham Local.
Flivvers and Lo-Vs on the 7th Ave.-Bronx Express.
Lo-Vs on the Lexington-Jerome and Lexington-White Plains Road Express.
Steinways on the Flushing & Astoria Lines.
These assignments were changed little until the late 1940s when the Steinways were shifted to the Mainlines.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
David Cole's photographs of the L in this Site's section on the CTA are awesome. I only wish he'd have taken them a year ago as it would have saved me the trouble of covering the same ground for my book. Everybody should look at them for they manage to capture the true spirit of the Chicago Ls and demonstrate why they are superior to those found in New York.
Eric Dale Smith
Thanks, glad you like the photos. Too bad you'll miss the field trip this weekend, but I welcome the opportunity to give you a personal tour of the L next time you're in town.
Also, I'll try to get some more photos of the Douglas L before they start knocking things down this fall.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You don't give up, do you?
I've been to Chicago numerous times, rode their system, and I'm sorry to say, it can't hold a candle to New York.
So what if their el's, or L's, are better. (And also falling into the street.) It just doesn't compare.
Chicago's L trains have one advantage over New York's: they're much faster. OTOH they're a helluva lot noisier in the subway stretches.
Eric,
A friendly word of advice - when it comes to comparing NYC to any other city (particulary in this case Chicago) - STOP PRESSING YOUR LUCK!!!!!
So far most of us have been fairly nice about your comparisons but to paraphrase the late Bill Bixby as David Banner in "The Incredible Hulk" - "Don't make us angry, you won't like us when we are angry".
Geez, and who ever said New Yorkers are arrogant and provincial.
Okay SubTalkers, from this date forward, New York is hereby deemed perfect in all ways, and any comparisons of New York to any other city are herby forbidden. Anybody who dares compare New York with any other city will be banished to Indianapolis for the remainder of their natural life.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I have put all 110 pictures I took today on the nostalgia trip up on my website. 80 of them are of the SBK Deisels and/or D type cars.
They are all located at my website www.nycrail.com. Check under the "latest updates" section.
-Harry
Check out the pictures at my website: The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway>
The picture of the BMT "D" type (Triplex) is terrific. It even has the destination sign set to #3 West End Line which is part of my handle.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Uh-oh, Fred's not going to like that.:-)
Those Triplexes sure do look nice.
If he'd shown up, he probably would have turned the crank and confused all hell out of the tower ... wonder if he knew the marker light colors for his lineup? I can see it now, Fred and his buddies overpowering the motorman and punching for a sea beach lineup. :)
Well, the Sea Beach combination was red-white for eons. Funny thing, I never paid any attention whatsoever to the marker lights when I was a regular Saturday commuter, something I regret now. Since the cars had front end signs, that's what I looked for.
It look like you guy had fun. I wished I could have been there, but I was on the N today.
Robert
I noticed it is being pulled by a diesal, did the train use its own power other places, and did they use all 3 units?
Only two units were used (Third is in the Musuem).
N1/N2 powered the train from the yard back to 9th Ave to pick up all that got off for pictures. Went "out to the docks" then returned to 9th Ave where they were cut off. The train moved under its own power for before and after the engines were added/removed.
Great pictures!
You know, the Q type pictures made me kind of sad. I mean, these cars (in their original incarnations) are almsot 100 years old. They ran down Gravesend and McDonald Avenues on the surface, probably to Sea Gate and the Canarsie Shore, possibly a few turns on the Brighton with trolley poles. They were already a decade-and-a-half old when Malbone Street happened.
Yeah, yeah, I know--not much salvagable--but do you think an auto that old wouldn't be restored?
Not in the condition they're in. There isn't much to restore.
-Hank
From what I saw (in person) maybe they could salvage enough between the 3 of them to rebuild one carbody.
But actually I fing them quite interesting. You get to see some of the way they were constructed. The problem with something completely restored is you lose a lot of the history.
Sorry I missed this, but I had a previous engagement (my own!)
Probably would have been less stressed on those D-types than I was at my wedding...
-Hank
Hank,
Mazel Tov!!!
Mazel tov!
Mazel Tov! A certain individual was kind enough to forward a photo... he did a nice job of retouching, there's no sign of the ball and chain :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Odd, the ball and chain were on my shirt sleave. (I kid you not-My mother bought a garter-like device with a small ball and two chains)
There are some more pictures up, I apologize for not getting it out to you in the first mailing.
-Hank
PS-Hey, don't call her the ball and chain; it's a rare lady one finds willing to brave 100+ degree temperatures on an excursion train with no openable windows through Brooklyn!
...it's a rare lady one finds willing to brave 100+ degree temperatures on an excursion train with no openable windows through Brooklyn!
This is true... even my wife, patient soul that she is, has her limits...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To: High St/Brooklyn Bridge:
I was on your website and looked at the photos of the BMT "D" type "Triplexes" and other cars. You have a terrific website devoted to old New York City subway cars.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I had a grand ol' time on the "D-Types to the Docks". The cars were running in top form from Chambers out to Metropolitan and back down to 38th Street. She was rockin' and a rollin' done the West End Line till Ninth Avenue when the SBK diesels were added to the consist. The weather was picture-perfect (and maybe a tad too hot) and the crowd was in good spirits.
I ran into railfans from various organizations, including Danny "the Master Trolley Mechanic" from Seashore up in Kennebunkport who was soloing in Brooklyn (Todd where were ya?). Also on hand were numerous SubTalkers and my fellow Shoreline members who all did a group photo suitable for framing (or throwing darts at).
We had some great photo ops at 38th Street Yard as the crew took the D-Types -- by now sandwiched between N1 and N2 -- down through the facility along the still-surviving SBK tracks that used to lead over to McDonald Avenue.
By time we got crossed 3rd Avenue and made it to the docks it was close to 3 pm. The time 'dropped anchor' over by the 3 dilapidated Q's in the SBK yard. The guests were told to take a lunch break in the vicinity and to re-board in an hour. Most went to the much-to-crowded COSTCO warehouse across the street, while some 'enlightened' railfans walked over to 4th Ave. to the Mikey D's for a more restful lunch hour. (I can't vouch for whether or not anyone ventured over to the "Wild, Wild, West" -- mums).
The only disappointment (a slight one): A trip through the Coney Island Yard Loop was on the itinerary but had to be dropped due to the lateness of the hour. Originally, the CI part of the trip was added at the 11th hour as I did not recall it being part of the day's itinerary when the trip was first advertised in May.
We need more of these trips!
BTW, you work fast, Dave! Nice masthead from that runby at 38th Street Yard!
BMTman
How did the "D"-types hold up, Doug?
Were they nervous? They should've been, being hauled to the water, after they saw what happened to the Redbirds.
Bathtime! ;-)
After lunch they started to be hauled down towards the water. Eventhough there was a building in the way, my sick mind started thinking: "Now, we take you onto the waiting barge so we can visit 9321 and her sisters."
I am curious to find out how the D types were taken off the rack and then on the rack again along the SBK ROW, once leaving third rail.
How long did it take the D Types to charge air once back on the rack?
Did the SBK Diesels provide HEP for air or power?
Thanks!
Al
No provision for N1/N2 to give hotel power. As long as we were on third rail we had lights and fans. After leaving thrid rail all shoes were tied up with some red line right before crossing 3rd Ave.
(We joked they forgot the key to the gate as we waited).
There was no noticeable wait to charge the train from the engines.
On return we once more waited for them to drop the shoes.
Engines were cut on the center track of 9th Ave, I watched N2 from the south end be cut with cutting Iron and mallet >G<. Got some pix of it I hope.
Since I haven't read the rest of the posts, the train did break down once stop away from Chambers and was discharged. Our resident Station Agent here opened at gate to let the pax off. The did Other Than Head End Operation to Chanmbers and crew was distpatched to Coney Island by car to get a rescue train to return the set to Coney (I left at that point since I didn't win the raffle).
Uh-ohhhhhhhhhh. Did they find out what happened?
Also on the trip out to Brooklyn a fan in car 6112c started to spit out smoke. Seemed that the motor for the fan burned out. The crew shut the fan off for the rest of the trip which was really needed until the delay at Fulton Street. We were stopped there for about 15 minutes with the doors closed before they decided to discharge.
How ironic that the smoke from the burning motor was almost directly over the head of the SLTM member we loving call "SPARKY" !!!!!!!
Hey, Alan! Are you aware that Harry Beck has a great shot of you at 2nd Ave. with the D-Types passing in the background?
Check it out at his site: it is photo #0826CX
BMTman
Let me get this traight: A rail-FAN started spitting smoke? I thought they were only supposed to be "foamers!"
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Let me get this straight: A rail-FAN started spitting smoke? I thought they were only supposed to be "foamers!"
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Take heart ... they probably needed FOAM to put it out. :)
I'll bet you wish you were there. I know I do.
Thankfully the shoe-dropping took a few minutes -- gave me and Jeff H. some time to stow our cameras and reboard from engine N1. Otherwise, we would have bailed right there and hoofed it over to 36th Street station back to the city.
BMTman
At Fulton St the lead units blew a fuse (amazing with only one station to go).
I too had a good time. I now own a piece of a redbirdwhich I bought from Transit legally.
Coming back the train went out of service at Fulton (Nassau Line Station)--lights and fans went out. Seems like the main fuse blew and with no spares the decision was made to unload at Fulton, One gate was opened to allow us to exit into the open part of the Broadway-Nassau/Fulton Complex. Since I was there, I guarded the gate and as expected some passengers tried to enter and I politely directed them to the Lex to go to Brooklyn Bridge to get the J.
I believe a set of R-42's did the 'rescue' and brought the D-Types back to Coney Island. As I understand it, some of the crew did not get him till midnight!
Besides the fuse problem, only one set of motors was powering up on that same set of D-Types. One out of four motors is NOT a good thing, particularly for heavy cars...
BMTman
Everybody out and push!
I had a prior obligation in Boston... but I'm going to make the 9/8 ERA trip to 207, and then head out to Hoboken. Hopefully the transit and weather will be good together!
I had a prior obligation in Boston... but I'm going to make the 9/8 ERA trip to 207, and then head out to Hoboken. Hopefully the transit and weather will be good together!
I agree that it was a good trip but some better planning needs to be in the future for these types of trips.
Discharging at the SBK yard in my mind wasn't a great idea. It took very long to unload the train. Not everyone had an easy time climbing down the steps at my end (and it didn't look much better at the other end, where people came off the diesel out of the end of the D-type). Expecting Costco to be able to accommodate everyone when we arrived is optimistic. The direction to visit other stores on 3rd Ave (which were almost all closed) for lunch was not helpful to those not familiar with the area. Yes, some folks knew 4th Ave had more to offer, but not everyone was aware of this.
For the number of patrons, the consist wasn't nearly big enough. It's probably good for the promoter to oversell but it was ridiculous to have as many people on the trip as were there. I stood the entire time (I'm not complaining since I probably would have regardless) but the original boarding and the unloading at the yard were not helped by the crowd. I was there 15 minutes before leaving time and the seats were all filled at that point.
Our fellow railfans need some etiquette training (and I'm not faulting the organizers, etc, but there are way too many pushy, mouthy people on these runs). We're all there to get shots - too many of us complain about others in their photos, etc and then do just the same thing. I heard there were some problems at Marcy Ave (I didn't leave the train there, so I didn't see it firsthand). I know at my posts near doors I was consistently elbowed, shoved, etc by camera-toters who wanted shots from the train (even though I was doing the same). Those with video cameras seem to be becoming the worst. The ironic thing was that several of these pushy folks were the same ones who had seats (often hogging the entire seat, using their equipment bags to occupy half of the seat.
There wasn't a whole lot of information given about stops, etc. The handout gave the basics, but that was it. I didn't get off at Fresh Pond since I asked if we would open at Metropolitan and was told we would for a 'few minutes'. Well, we didn't. I asked about how long we would be at 36th St yard and was told about 15 minutes. I think we spent more like 45 jockeying around there.
Not too much consideration is given to the out-of-towners, like me (and I know I'm in the minority). When 'lunch' came at 3 PM and the prospect of not moving again until 4 arose, I left the trip and fended for myself from there. I did the same thing at Coney Island on last year's Redbird trip. Whether it's NYCT or the tour folks, I don't know, but the idea of the trip ending after 6 PM is not attractive to me when I still have about 3 hours of travel ahead of me, a good deal of which will hinge on NJT's schedule to get me back to the Trenton area.
Yes, it was a good trip. Unfortunately, no, I don't think I'll do it again, even though it's for a good cause. The subway ride is nice, but too much time sitting still and dealing with rude, boorish fans. I don't particularly want to miss trips like this in the future, but the enjoyment isn't outweighing the aggravation.
I would have to disagree about the unloading at SBK Yards, 30 years ago they did it and only from the engines. You had to climb down the engines (See the photo in the hand out).
I like the idea of recreating that. The plan overall was a bit too ambitious, I would have liked the CI Yard loop trip just for some more outside running of the D's.
I saw the photo in the handout. What happened then, I don't know, but yesterday certainly wasn't efficient. I was among the first off the train, and it was SLOW - at least one baby carriage had to be handed down, two kids helped, and several others with canes/walking disabilities had hard times climbing down. And this was on the end with the 'ladder'.
I left the train, went to the other end for a photo, got a couple of shots of the Q types, and walked to the 2nd Ave gate, and there was still a crowd waiting to leave the train. It may have been nostalgic, etc etc but it was certainly not efficient. I would have to wonder whether this contributed to the cutting short of the trip - I didn't continue after this stop, so I don't know if the train was loaded and ready to roll by 4 PM, the time noted for departure.
I too would have preferred to spend more time running on the lines and less on the time-consuming portion of the trip to the yard.
Bob another good point about the SBK yard.
Since everyone paid (I would assume) $35 a head for this March-of-Dimes trip, I'd think it COULD have been possible for the crew to have erected a 'temporary platform' of some kind at least one-car length long (Since the trip was advertised way before the summer months, there was time for something to have been built prior to the trip). Just a simple wooden-built thing so that disembarking/boarding could have been done in a much more timely manner. And certainly those with canes/baby carriages (I noticed one of the former and a few of the latter) would have had a better go of things.
But --all things consider -- I really can't complain.
BMTman
I know I ranted a little but it's the small details like this that make one wonder. It might have even been easier to advise all riders of the platform situation at 9th Ave and give folks the option of taking the W train to 36th St and walking to the yard. Of course, it's all the more reason that the stop in the yard was not very bright - a run-through might have been the better option. A railroad yard with ballasted surface is in and of itself not a great place, footing-wise, for those who don't need assistance walking.
Apparently you don't go on enough of these trips, otherwise you'd be made aware that the 'foamers' are abit on the crude side of things as opposed to the average railfans who are more 'refined' in terms of manners and 'railfanning etiquette'.
I overall enjoyed the trip although I'd have to agree with you that yes, the trip was a bit overbooked if I were to take an educated guess. However, most of these excursions usually are since '11th hour railfans' join the trip at some point along the way.
If I could fault the trip organizers it would be for not having a brief layover at Metrolpolitan Avenue for those to use facilities (as it was a long, slow trip back to Chambers Street) and to make a stop to the pizzeria adjacent to the fare control at Met. where NYCT ballcaps, gloves, and related merchandise are sold in the store window.
BMTman
Hey Doug, thanx for the tip about the pizzeria near Met. Gotta check it out when I get back to where I bought my first car. (A brand-new 1972 AMC Hornet from Midville AMC on the corner of Fresh Pond & Met for $3,400 plus only 7% NYC sales tax in 1972).
Wow ... "leisure suit on wheels" ... I remember those. :)
We had a '74 Hornet 4-door sedan. Kept it 12 1/2 years and put almost 183,000 miles on it. Gas mileage wasn't worth squat towards the end, what with that Carter YF carburetor, but the fellow my father sold it to loved it.
Leisure suit on wheels ... enjoy the irony ... ESPECIALLY IF YOU DIDN'T BUY IT. :)
My father sold it to a coworker. His wife especially like the A/C. That was one thing that never gave us problems - the factory A/C never needed to be recharged and always worked like a charm.
I'm all too well aware of what I don't like to call 'foamers' but you are correct - some of them have no social skills whatsoever. I've been on many trips in different places and they usually manage to find them and wreck them for everyone with their selfishness, obnoxious behavior and demeanor. They don't even have the sense to tone down their cursing and other crudeness, especially on a trip with older folks, women and children present. I've been told by an official of at least one fan group that the group has scheduled fewer trips after getting flack from both trip participants and the operating authority about 'certain' fans.
The problem remains that they tote their bulky bags of precious, 'must have' equipment with them, knocking into everyone and getting dropped at photo stops (usually in spots which could be used by other riders). While I'm not trying to generalize, those with the video cams are absolutely the worst, since they don't 'shoot and move' as is the courtest I've learned in photo lines - they stay and hog up good spots.
I've been saying to myself 'never again' after just about every New York trip I've made over the past 3-4 years and several others elsewhere. I keep coming back, though, because I want to enjoy them also, and I keep hoping that the 'foamer' community will realize its bad reputation. How naive am I?
The overbooking I understand to some degree (have you flown lately? - the trip organizers are doing the same thing). The '11th hour' folks should be held to board last, ensuring that those who reserved early get preference. On non-AC cars on a hot day, it can made a difference. Fortunately it didn't yesterday, but I was beginning to wonder after the first car got a little smoky coming out of the Montague Street tunnel...
I don't understand the non-stop at Met. As you noted, it would have been helpful to do this, especially knowing that the 'lunch' stop was that long away (3 hours after Met) and the limited facilities at Chambers couldn't possibly handle the crowd in a 15-minute stop. When we crossed the W'burg bridge I stopped one of the organizers and asked about the Met stop, where I was told that we would have a short one. Whether one was planned and changed at the last minute, I don't know (it wasn't in the trip itinerary, and the only reason I asked was that I heard someone mention that they heard there would be one).
First of all, just about any fan trip will attract at least a few 'foamers', unless it's a private fan trip and attendance is strictly by invitation only. Also, I wouldn't worry about older people being offended at what foamers say because my observations have been that the foamers are the ones with the foulest mouths. Some people, like myself and a few others I know, bring a lot of camera equipment in order to properly photograph fan trips and get good pictures. This applies more often than not on fan trips taking place in wintertime when it gets dark out early and tripods are brought along. However, I and the other people who bring tons of equipment for the purpose of proper photography try to be as courteous as possible. It's the people who bring tons of equipment just to get a picture, any picture, by any way possible who are usually the true foamers who usually cause the trouble.
For example, on a PCC fan trip in July a foamer was appointed 'trip captain' for reasons (if there were any) that elude me. Talk about annoying, he had gotten me ticked off before I even set foot in the PCC at the carhouse before we left and I was already asking one of my friends who this guy was. One friend started asking me if I had any idea who the guy was because he was getting very annoyed with him as well. At that point, the fan trip had progressed to the point where the PCC was just leaving the yard.
Throughout the whole trip he barked rediculous, silly, irrelevent orders at everybody, eventually most of which were disregarded, annoying most people especially those who were trying to take decent pictures. On his 35mm still camera, he had a wide angle (35mm or so) lens which meant, in order to get a picture of the PCC and only the PCC without much background, that he was standing in front of everybody taking forever to shoot. The guy also managed to make life even worse with his video camera, kicking everybody around so he could shoot out of whatever window pleased him, but the highlight of the day was when we were having a photo stop in a loop. A service car pulled in behind the PCC and the guy ordered everybody to drop what they were doing (they were taking their pictures of the PCC because this guy had finally gotten out of the way) and get back on - without taking into account that there was another service car on layover in the loop in front of the PCC and its driver was doing a crossword and wasn't scheduled to leave yet meaning that we couldn't depart from the loop untill he did. It was at this point I reminded the guy that streetcars can't pass streetcars and that there was one parked in front of ours.
Nobody I knew had seen the guy before or knew who he was, but suffice it to say there are people who don't want him on a fan trip again.
As for people with video cameras, yes, I agree that they tend to be the worst. In Toronto there's this reasonably well known interloper who's often referred to as "Captain Video". He doesn't pay for fan trip tickets but instead chases PCCs in his car, driving with one hand and operating his video camera with the other and makes videos out of the footage and sells them for profit which really annoys charter organisers and the passengers who paid good money to ride on the fan trip. I believe he also occasionally drives to other cities to do the same elsewhere as well.
Anyways, all I can say is that fan trips bring all sorts of people out of the woodwork.
Rantmode=off
-Robert King
PS. I've heard horror stories about ERA fan trips. Are they true?
No wonder I never set foot in such environs. sounds like some of them foamers might want to head on up to manhattan state for their psych eval and pills.
Hey Joe, PLayland, is this why we avoid Fantrips?
'Amen' to these trips bringing all sorts of people out of the woodwork!
There was a similar character on the Market-Frankford El fantrip a couple of years back (Oct '98). He kept marching to the front of photo lines, getting in folks' shots, pretending not to hear when anyone asked him to move, etc. He had a big gym-type bag full of equipment and another smaller suitcase on wheels, and he lugged both of these with him at every photo stop (using one or the other to help propel himself through the crowd to the front of the photo line). A couple of us mentioned his lack of courtesy which he ignored. Things changed a bit when he apparently left his suitcase behind somewhere. All of a sudden, he could hear us, and he feverishly asked everyone if he/she had seen his bag (and I don't believe anyone noticed it left behind anywhere). He left the trip somewhere on the Frankford side, presumably to return where he had last seen his bag, and I don't think anyone missed him.
The boorish behavior isn't limited to foamers. It's seen often at tourist sites, etc. It's an unfortunate by-product of our selfish times.
This is exactly what the guy on the PCC fan trip was doing except he wsan't lugging a ton of equipment around, just an older (early 1970s) Nikon camera and an RCA camcorder. For all of the nusiance he was, I think he could have obtained much better still photographs if he just bothered to set the exposure and focus the camera instead of standing in front of everybody trying to hold the bloody camera still. We didn't have the 'misfortune' of loosing the guy partway through the trip, but I can assure you he won't be missed on any in the future if he doesn't show up.
None of us were able to get through to the guy that he was being a twerp, but you should have seen the way he exploded at everybody whenever the fan trip bumped into the other PCC which was out doing tour service. I just wish that people wouldn't act this way.
-Robert King
I ,wonder if these types are the drivers that cut you off and curse at you even when they don't signal, and the rude people who cus and swear at there kids at little leauge games.they must all be from the same inbred famiy.
The greasy spoon outside of Met is closed on Sundays. As for using the facilities, quite frankly, for such a large crowd the train would have been there for a long period of time and thereby start interfering with regular service.
You said a mouthful and I am in full agreement with you. I was not on the trip, I was across from the Wild Wild West taking photos with my son as the train crossed Second Ave. These trips always run behind schedule and I heard that it took much more time than hoped to couple the engines onto the consist. Quite frankly I was happy that I didn't go. The train was too crowded. I hope that potential customers for future trips aren't turned off for this worthy cause. I did go last year. Sure it was for charity, but forking over $35.00 a pop not to have a seat for such a long trip just isn't right. I wonder why the third set wasn't running. Mechanical trouble? Transit museum unwilling to give it up for the trip? A fellow from my neighborhood was on the trip. He bailed out after lunch and I drove him home. That COSTCO is a madhouse under normal conditions. I shopped at that particular outlet once and never again! I went in to buy a couple of soda's for us while we were waiting for the train. The counter girls were overwelmed with customers. When I was told that an arrangement was made to let the railfans on the trip into the store for lunch, I said "you gotta be kidding". Even the bottled water machine was out of order!
That was just a sign on the machine. I got two bottles of water at $0.50 each!! They were COLD!
They were totally mixed up at the counter as well.
I ordered a hot dog and soda for $1.50. They gave me a sausage sandwich and soda. Who am I to complain - it saved me .85.
Maybe they ran out of hot dogs and were giving "free upgrades?" :)
Lunch for me ended up being a bag of Cheetos and a Snapple from the machines, as I wasn't brave enough to face the lines (and I had very little cash remaining, having spent most of it, plus a small loan from a friend, on roll signs back at Chambers :)).
The trip could have been better, but it could have been worse, too. Considering the organizers had to ferry around a couple hundred people, some of them rabid, on antique equipment while still keeping normal operations running, it went pretty well (though I'm willing to bet J service after 5:00 PM would be an exception). I agree that a small platform should have been provided at SBK yard; I seriously didn't trust the rickety ladder we were given.
As for etiquette... well, all I can say is, at times, it was an authentic subway experience :). The crowning glory wasn't a foamer, but a woman who had her legs propped up on a transverse seat. When my friend asked if he could sit down, she shouted that it was her husband's seat, they had been sitting in those seats all day, and he should go back to wherever he was when he boarded. Funny, I didn't see a seat number on my ticket!
I was especially disappointed that we didn't open up at Metropolitan Ave, as I passed up Fresh Pond Rd thinking that Met Ave would make a better photo. I'm told I didn't miss much at Fresh Pond. Having Coney Island cut out was also disappointing, but at least it gave me a reason to cut out early; NJCoastExp and I bailed out and hopped on an N when we heard the announcement. (BTW, I sympathize with anyone who headed out to the Sea Beach or West End to get run-by shots; a couple of friends of mine were going to do just that, but someone notified them in time.)
Despite the shortcomings, I really enjoyed the trip. As I said, it can't be an easy thing to coordinate - anyone remember Jay St to Coney Island via Columbus Circle on one of last year's Nostalgia Trains? - and, for me, riding the vintage equipment, hanging out with friends, and getting some decent pictures overshadowed the negative. In fact, I'm already excited about next year's trip :).
>>Considering the organizers had to ferry around a couple hundred people, some of them rabid, on antique equipment while still keeping normal operations running, it went pretty well (though I'm willing to bet J service after 5:00 PM would be an exception)<<
The J was not affected at all since it terminates in the inner tracks at Chambers. The D-types used the outer (mainline) tracks.
On a similar topic - this years trip I made up my mind that I would not be one of those hanging out by the front window trying to get a peek. I was satisfied by standing by one of the side doors looking out those windows. A couple of fellow fans wanted to take some shots so I obliged and moved away from the door. They in turn obliged by moving away after they finished taking their pictures (although there was room enough for them to stand and watch out the window). I stood for most of the trip to SBK. On the way back I was able to get a seat. I went back to standing as we left 9th Av.
I agree about the complaints on the FOAMERS but I want to add something:
I have never had any problem with people bring their kids and grandkids on the trip. After all, this is the next generation of railfans. All I ask of parents/grandparents who brought their kids with them - please watch them. These trains are not toys (much as it might seem to some). There was one young child who was trying to sit on the thin railing in the passageway between two of the units in one of the sets. His father was busy gabbing with someone and was not paying attention. It was one of the TA Superintendents on board who told him to please climb down from there. I can just imagine how loud the father would have been screaming had the child fallen and gotten hurt.
Well, I have had my say. So there.
Ohhh, so Broad and Fulton are closed weekends... I thought the J went to Broad; it shows how much I ride the J/M/Z. At least it picked a convenient place to break down.
I didn't even try to get near the front window, since that's where it tends to be the foamiest; the track looks the same from the front window of an R-42, anyway. The feeling of sitting back and riding is more enjoyable to me (except in 36 St yard, when I was in every side window getting pictures of MOW equipment :)).
While I was disappointed about CI yards being cut from the trip (I've never been in them)I realize that it was for the best.
Just imagine what would have happened if the fuses blew somewhere between between CI and the tunnels. It would have been pretty scary if the breakdown occured between stations anywhere on the line and would have had to wait for a rescue train. Sometimes things happen for a reason
What roll signs did you acquire?
Redbird side & bulkhead destination; the bulkhead number rolls had already run out. The head sign is on display, for the moment, in my living room, set to "Willets Pt/Shea Stdm;" the side sign is just leaning against a wall in the spare bedroom hiding in its NYCTA lawn & leaf bag, set to "Grand Central Manhattan/34 St-Penn Sta Manhattan/(S) Shuttle"
Bought the side sign myself - its in the entrance hall waiting for clearance from the spouse to bring it upstairs ;-)
Actually I will eventually be selling off the rolls - I really wanted the box - the IRT rolls will be replaced with the pre-Christie BMT (R-30) rolls I have in my collection. I was told they should fit.
Bought the side sign myself - its in the entrance hall waiting for clearance from the spouse to bring it upstairs ;-)
Best of luck! :)
R-30 sign boxes are probably identical; shouldn't be a problem there. I was hoping to get the end route sign, to see if my R-1/9 Eastern Division roll (the extent of my collection before Sunday) would fit.
The bulkhead route and destination mechanisms were more than likely identical from the R-1s through the R-38s, made by the Hunter Illumianted Car Sign Company in Flushing, so your curtain should fit. AFAIK the R-16s thru R-38s had the same side sign box. My route curtain for some reason starts to bind the closer I get to A (go figure) while the destination mechanism works fine from end to end. My R-1/9 sign box still has the light sockets and wiring (in series) for the lower destination sign. I fashioned a fixture for the upper sign using a multitap strip and two plug-in sockets. The sign box is now signed for the A: Wash. Hts-207th St. and Far R'k'wy Mott Av.
I was able to get one of the last Redbird bulkhead destination frame with the sign. They sold the last 3 they had for $10 each (it pays to wait until the end of the trip). I was a reasonable consolation since I didn't win the raffle.
AFter spending about 45 minutes cleaning off about 35+ years of dust and dirt on the frame (and on some of the destinations) I have it the floor in my living room set to Pelham Bay Park. I plan to add a small lamp behind it (nothing elaborate probably just a desk lamp with a low wattage bulb). It will make an interesting conversation piece (sample conversation: what are you trying to do? rebuild a train piece by piece?)
Also the Snapple machine was working. I was dehydrated from the lack of a/c and hot sun. I went inside Costco at about 3:30, after the first surge and practically "chugged down" two Diet Snapples for a buck each. Therefore, refreshment was available.
People, you've got to understand that Costco probably wasn't expecting as many people as we had on the trip and couldn't really do much more on what is normally a very busy shopping day for them.
All in all, we should be grateful for their hospitality, rather than nitpicking.
When the train was making the westbound crossing at second avenue some people in the parking lot said to the Shoreline People in the last car "where is this train going", we replied "we're picking up a large order at Costco and need all the room". You should have seen the looks of disbelief on their faces.
I could only imagine the mess at Costco, given that I've experienced in past years at Coney Island when the fantrips stopped for lunch there. I'm never sure what the counterpersons at Nathan's thought when the hordes of hungry railfans descended upon them...
Despite the not-so-great experiences I described here, I did find a good deal of enjoyment on the trip and hope to consider them in the future.
I purchased a ticket through a flyer sent to me in a mailing from my museum (shoreline). I decided not to go last minute because of the "foamer" thing. I've seen some of these people at it like at the shoreline on New York Days. Arguing and hollering about the last PCC etc, didn't want to be bothered on my day off.
I figured on the trip being oversold as well, not that i would have minded standing the whole trip but I hate crowds!
The subway ride is nice, but too much time sitting still and dealing with rude, boorish fans. I don't particularly want to miss trips like this in the future, but the enjoyment isn't outweighing the aggravation.
Have to say I agree with you, that's why I rarely participate in trips like this any more. After being shoved away from the railfan window by a person with a video camera a few years ago (they offered no apology, just the explanation that they were making a tape for resale - like that made their ticket worth more than mine - and no, it wasn't one of our fellow SubTalkers) I haven't bothered with subway trips at all. But for those who did enjoy themselves, I'm glad - I'd hate to see things deteriorate to the point where these trips weren't offered to those who are willing to put up with the aggravation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I take a railfan trip on a D type Triplex and it happens to be a Sea Beach #4 heading out to Coney Island and some guy with a camera tries to push me away from the railfan window----his ass is grass and I'm the lawnmower. It will be the mistake of his life. Of course, if it is some other line I will concede the point. But on a Sea Beach, Sea Beach Fred rules.
You won t if he is 6 5 and 250 pounds
[his ass is grass and I'm the lawnmower]
...I haven't heard that line since grade school...
It's a good one, I must admit.
Besides, if anybody gave me a bad time on the Sea Beach fan trip I would have you to back me up, right? Oh Doug? Doug??????
He dont hear you
Doug's a Brighton man. Or should I say, a Franklin Ave. man.
What do you expect...from a child
Peace,
ANDEE
What I think I dislike most about the boorish fans is that they're the ones that get remembered by operating staff, non-participating subway riders, etc in addition to those on the trip itself. When these types repeatedly ignore warnings to keep their body parts inside open windows, trespass on property (e.g. passing through the end gates on platforms, despite the clear warnings posted not to do so, so they can get the perfect shot, with the belief that the warnings don't apply to knowledgable folks like themselves who know how to act on railroad property), and do other stupid things, is it any wonder that the operating authority thinks twice whether the exposure of future 'fan' trips is worthwhile? I've been on excursions on which each participant must sign a waiver, as crazy as that sounds, just in case the rules of the trip get ignored and someone gets hurt (and railfan groups don't carry insurance).
I related some other experiences in Subtalk previously along these lines. Two come to mind - both on NY subway trips. One was the use of a couple of Franklin Shuttle stops as impromptu rest areas, with grown men (and I use the term loosely) relieving themselves off the platforms in clear view of anyone. This disgusted me since I saw it as an act of disrespect of property, in my mind just as awful as graffiti, scratch-iti, or other acts we as railfans would quickly criticize. The other was the insults yelled at regular passengers who, probably innocently and unknowingly, tried to board a special train. Instead of polite advice that this was not a regular train, some so-called 'fans' decided it was better to taunt, insult and demean these lowly folk who dared enter the special train. It's no wonder some riders think railfans are nutty and weird.
It's a shame that the boors have to ruin everything (have you flown lately - one more reason it isn't very enjoyable any more - too many selfish, obnoxious people). What doesn't cease to amaze me about them is how insistent they are in having things their ways and how upset they tend to get when one asserts him/herself against them. It's OK in their minds to shove you away from the front window but won't they whine when you stand your ground. Ask anyone on the 8/26 trip about those who thought they had a certain seat for the entire trip but were surprised when they returned to it and someone else was there.
I will be traveling there for three days and was wondering what the specific rules are for photography.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
I found my answer in the archives.
-Harry
This reminds me...
For those of you who will be joining us for the Chicago field trip and plan on taking photos of the CTA system:
While taking photos at Logan Square for the line-by-line descriptions on this website, I was told by somebody in a CTA uniform that photography is not allowed on the CTA system. I nodded and then went down to the other end of the station, out of eyesight from him, and continued taking some more photos.
This is the first time in about 200 photos I've taken of the CTA system that anybody has ever said a word to me about photography being prohibited. This includes many times when I was taking photos within plain sight of CTA employees.
As for the official CTA policy on photography, I have no idea what it is. (I couldn't find any mention of a policy on the CTA website.) My advice: Take photos, but be discreet and don't be too shocked if you're scolded by a CTA employee. And of course, motormen will kindly thank you not to blind them with the flash of your camera.
Not much else to say about the field trip at this point, except that it's less than a week away! As mentioned before, plans are to meet in the Great Hall of Union Station at 3:00 PM on Friday, near the TV monitors in the center of the hall.
And as of tonight, the Chicago Tribune is predicting perfect weather for the whole weekend... Sunny skies, and temperatures in the mid-70's! Here's hoping the forecast doesn't change! (Todd, are you listening?)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I took pictures at the clinton station in full view of all of the transit workers & operators NO PROBLEM !!! ....
I've een taking CTA photos since Sunday, at times interacting with train operators and conductors. Nothing has been said about a photography ban.
The New York city subway came a long way from it's drunken motormen status in the past 10 years. 1st subway ridership is up 60 %(sadly service is up 10 %), The MTA hasn't had a deadly subway crash in 6 years(which is amazing considering the span from the 1970's-1992),and subway crime is at it's lowest since the 1950's or 60's.But the Mta has a long way to go.In the past 25 years 7 subway lines have been discontinued and only 4 added (2 considering the Q is the after effect of the mergence of the QJ and the QB,and technically the isn't a subway line).Also in the past 30 years 3 subway line has been discontinued(The 8,Culver S and the South ferry line).
Today there is plans though to build 2 subway lines and to abandon 2 platforms
*-R.I.P Aaliyah.
its true
rip aaliyah
"Today there is plans though to build 2 subway lines" One is the V, what is the other?
I think he meant new trackage.
Hey Dave Pirmann, when are you going to allow us to post a Q in angle brackets without it being turned into an HTML tag? Even when I type "<Q>", it changes into angle brackets before it's posted! FIX THIS ALREADY!!!!
- Lyle Goldman
Do you type it like this:
Wait - don't respond to my first response. When I typed Q in angle brackets, it didn't even appear. Don't know why. I guess you have to type diamond-Q or Q-diamond.
Or, simply leave spaces, thus....< Q >
Peace,
ANDEE
FYI: There's nothing wrong with David Pirmann's website posting system. This website is AUTOMATICALLY BUILT IN with HTML coding tag, so that one does NOT need to choose between text and HTML. Although, it WOULD leave more options if there was a choice between HTML and TEXT ONLY.
This happened to me several times.
Railfan Pete.
<Q></plaintext> Is this what you're trying to do?
What was that, the PLAINTEXT tag? That actually seems to work, although for some reason the whole paragraph appears in a different font.
- Lyle Goldman
Plaintext is correct using html brackets with closing brackets after the desired item--in this case the diamond Q.
Whoa. Thanks for the info. Your posting was pretty weird because the "Responses" and "Post a New Response" was not present.
You can notify this to other people who have complained about David Pirmann's posting privilege to "type the Q -diamond" which they have trouble with.
Railfan Pete.
Huh? I went back to my post--responses/post a new response are there.
No they aren't. After your HTML terminates, there's NOTHING below it.
Probably you inserted the ENTIRE "Post a New Response" and "Responses" with it so that it doesn't come out below.
Hmm.
Railfan Pete.
I think what we have here are browsers that don't see the same thing. On my screen (with WebTV) the whole page looks normal. Perhaps some of you computer experts could explain this better.
What does do in html?
(I guess this post will show me)
It dissapears!!!!!!!!
Any HTML tag that a browser can't recognize will be ignored and will not be displayed.
I hope that your browser doesn't recognize the Q tag, as it doesn't exist.
I hope that your browser doesn't recognize the Q tag, as it doesn't exist.
I agree, but that hasn't stopped the browser manufacturers from implementing tags of their own invention.
Funny. On my computer, it put quotation marks around all the following paragraphs!
- Lyle Goldman
Well the only choice is no HTML tags at all. Take your pick.
Why are there only two choices? At one time you could type the angle brackets literally, in which case you got the effects of the HTML tag, or you could type them symbolically, using HTML ampersand escape sequences, in which case the angle brackets appeared. Why can't we do that now?
<Q> =
=
or
- Lyle Goldman
Substitute < and > for < and >.
Substitute < and > for < and >.
Oops. Never mind.
Here: Substitute brackets in place of where I use ( and ):
(plaintext)(Q)(/plaintext) So it comes out looking like this:
<Q></plaintext
The New York city subway came a long way from it's drunken motormen status in the past 10 years. 1st subway ridership is up 60 %(sadly service is up 10 %), The MTA hasn't had a deadly subway crash in 6 years(which is amazing considering the span from the 1970's-1992),and subway crime is at it's lowest since the 1950's or 60's.But the Mta has a long way to go.In the past 25 years 7 subway lines have been discontinued and only 4 added (2 considering the Q is the after effect of the mergence of the QJ and the QB,and technically the isn't a subway line).Also in the past 30 years 3 subway line has been discontinued(The 8,Culver S and the South ferry line).
Today there is plans though to build 2 subway lines and to abandon 2 platforms
"Today there is plans though to build 2 subway lines and to abandon 2 platforms"
What platforms are we eliminating?
One platform each at the Canal St. and Bowery stops on the Centre St. (J/M/Z) loop. I forget which one exactly.
"Drunken motormen status"? It was just one drunk T/O. By 1991 the subway was in basically decent shape. Step back to 1981 and that's when things were dismal.
Evaluating subway service by counting letters and numbers is silly. By your reasoning, service would be improved if the TA were to introduce a few hundred separate lines, each one operating two or three stops.
The Third Avenue el was never called the 8 except on maps -- not on the cars and not, IINM, by the people who rode it.
The South Ferry shuttle connected two stations that are only a few blocks apart, and wasn't even inside the 1's fare control at South Ferry. Few people noticed or cared about its cancellation.
Which platforms?!
(And we all know about the 2nd Avenue Line--but what is the other one?)
Could be the northbound two tracks along the Nassau Street line OR the Atlantic Avenue on the "L" - eastermost two platforms are being torn down.
wayne
The Nassau St. Line elevated above the used platform at Myrtle Avene?
And the Atlantic Avenue L platforms make more sense--actually I think a realignment so that there's a less steeper curve into the westbound Atlantic Avenue station would be more feasible--don't you think?
You leave out that graffiti was finally crushed on the last of the subway cars, and on the subway platforms of most elevated lines (the 7 line stops were completely coated, i don't recall the rest...).
Around the same time though, the most daring writers took to the tunnels, where there is still plenty of new graffiti as the years pass. Hell, Revs (of Revs & Cost - who stuck large stickers on just about every 'don't walk' sign in the city with odd slogans on them) writes jounral entries on the walls down there.
The graffiti was gone from the cars before 1991.
The graffiti was gone from the cars before 1991.
I believe the last graffitied car was removed/cleaned in the spring of 1989.
was it? go figure. it seemed later than that... wheres the time go?
it wasn't until 93 or so though that they finally seemed to get the stations under control
hey Joe , remember "just a few years ago"
indeed.
And then there's MADR - you see his tag all over Brooklyn in letters three to six feet high. There's a theatre east of the Brighton Beach station where he painted his name right on the roof in huge letters. And look what he's done to the Sea Beach! Phooey!
WAYNE
Yea, well since sea beach is open top, it's just asking for graffiti. There's also another MADR tag on a roof that can be seen on the West End. A funny one is when going southbound on sea beach, after 20th ave station, but before the underpass on the manhattan tracks, you see a really tall MAD and then half of the 'R' and a big splash of paint... just wondering, how do they do graffiti on the higher parts?
Maybe they have rock - climbing skills.
IMO, they have no business tagging transit property. And if they get hurt in the process (or struck by an oncoming train), I will have very little sympathies (mostly geared towards their families).
madr is relatively unknown in queens - but there are many multitudes of writers who have taken to the rooftops along the elevated subway lines. In astoria it started out around 89,90 with people like rank & ek tagging just about every rooftop on the line, then came sere, meck, len, crime, seus (rip) - there was one cat, mala, was thrown off a roof by a homeowner (i don't much blame the guy who owned that house). these days it's gsa and the bp people...
7 line was all about bruz, ghost, ja, smith, web, sn, giz, mq, scae... these days it's anyone's game, these are the same people who originally tagged just about every subway tunnel in this town. the queens blvd line also had lots of stuff from the KRT crowd, one of whom is the webmaster over at tagpage.com...
once the trains were cleaned, there were the stations, rooftops and tunnels, eventually the elevated stations were cleaned up, and now it's all rooftops and to a lesser degree tunnels, with more and more kids going after the freight trains, since they're never painted and rarely parked in secure locations. If there were more freight coming through this town, i'm sure that would catch on like wildfire. Until then, kids make road trips to jersey.
Long Live Revs, Im glad he is back, also IM glad a good friend of mine IH1 reclaimed his spot on the desend into Carrol Streeton the F the damned werk bums painted all approach walls, and in just a few days there are tags and throw-ups there already, good work guys, IH1 happily reclaimed his spot there, Revs will too do it, except now in red instead of white. Watch out Vandal Squad, guess dem damned kids is still a step ahead of Tom & Jerry.
Last week, I noticed that the gate at the Times Square exit at 41st Street and Broadway was unlocked and wide open. I didn't investigate, but I assumed the staircase to the street was locked up (if it even existed anymore -- with the new entrance a short block away, I considered it not unlikely that this one was soon to be removed). There are no turnstiles or HEETs here, just a single HET and the aforementioned gate.
This morning, I deliberately exited through that gate, which was still open. The staircase led right to the street, with a "No entry" sign overhead.
The bad news: Someone apparently caught on, as when I returned at 9:30 or so this evening, the gate was padlocked shut.
You mean you didn't spot the under-cover cop lurking by the unlocked gate in an effort to make his quota?
Damn. I never thought of that. There could be undercover cops at those things... A couple of weeks ago at Fulton Street at the exit at Broadway and Fulton (the one with "No Entry") the metrocard Iron Maiden was broken. The Green go light was off. I swiped my metrocard and there wasn't a beep. So I tried to push the thing and it let me through. It was broken and was allowing free access. 2 days later, the metrocard slot was taped up, and the iron maiden was locked for exit only... they caught on. I never that an undercover cop could have been watching.
It's more than obvious, wherever there is no need for a cop eg. no danger, that's wereh they are most likely to be.
leaving a gate or entrance open, and waiting for people to 'hop' is an ancient tactic they've been using for years to catch and fine people. Quotas, anyone?
I was once at union sq. though, and they were changing the old turnstyles to new ones. the cop standing there just waved everyone in, as there was no way you could actually pay the fare for that bit of time that they were installing the new ones (maybe an hour at most).
Well, there was another time though, when I was at 68th st and lex on the 6, me and my friends were coming in and there was a cop in the station. My "special-er" friends decided to go through the gate just becasue they could open it. They went through and no problem, the cop didn't even care.
You swiped your card and went through. What's the problem? So it didn't beep. Big deal -- even if you consciously remember that it's supposed to beep, did it fail to beep because it didn't read your card or did it fail to beep because the beeper was broken? If the latter, you just paid your fare.
You are responsible for swiping your card before entering. I don't see how you could be held responsible for ensuring that a fare is actually deducted from your card. If a cop tweaks a turnstile to give free transfers for four hours instead of just two (I doubt that's possible, but play along), could he arrest or fine anyone who doesn't notice that he wasn't actually charged or loses track of time?
As for Times Square, no one was watching. Zillions of passengers were streaming by in the transfer passageway but I was the only one standing still.
Same thing at the 27 St exit-only on the downtown 1/9... almost every morning, the gate is open. Also, the same young man in a baseball cap can be found reading his newspaper either against the wall of the platform and not getting on a train or sitting on the sidewalk on 7 Ave, next to the stairway.
Actually last week when I was in Coney I walked into the station and I see to TA employees holding the gate open, I didn't give them a second look as me and my friend walked right through without paying the fare, and they didn't give me a second look they just continued to talk with each other, was there any reason for this? Was the TA feeling generous?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
You should have been challenged. By rule, we are required to challenge fare beaters. I do not know specifics, but the S/As involved could be disciplined if supervision saw this happen.
Even if the S/As did not challenge you, Coney has undercover cops. COnasider it luck that you did not get a souvenir from the police.
A few months ago, at Grand Central, an MTA employee is trying to get in through the turnstyle but his pass isn't working. So, he asks the Clerk to let him in through the special entry turnstile. Problem is, he's at the wrong one. The clerk hits the button. Hearing the beep, he tries to go through but obviously it doesn't work. He instead goes for the gate. I swipe my card through the unlocked turnstile at a high speed so it couldn't deduct a fare and walked through.
LOL... that is so mean, yet cool
What mean? He had already entered through the gate, and I wasn't going to let a perfectly good free fare go to waste...
Does anybody know the starting salary for assistant conductor on NJ Transit or The LIRR. Also the aptitude test that you must take as part of the hiring process.......what does it consist of?
Check the employment sections of their respective websites--they might have the salaries listed.
http://www.jobs.com/Company/Profile.asp?intTopNav=1&strCompanyID={185F9DA7-9980-11D3-83F3-00A0CC55F965}&strgroupId=775
(this is what I got from NJ Transit's website for career opportunities.)
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/lirr/jobpostings/ac.htm
(this is for the assistant conductor position for the Long Island Railroad)
I am currently in the LIRR Assistant Conductor training program which leads to being a qualified Conductor (2years you must qualify). Here is the process.
The process is long and to even get called is like hitting the lottery. You must send a reume to the LIRR and your work experience must have customer service. 1st Step - be able to pass a basic aptitude test and exploratory interview and have a clean credit report and background check. 2nd Step - Get through a panel interview with HR and Transportation Managers. 3rd Step- Signals and Definitions Overview and then come back in three weeks, knowing the 73 Signal Aspects and Indications and 68 Definitions VERBATIM for a 50 question test (must get an 75%). Pass, you are now in the Phase I Assistant Conductor Training Program,(15 Weeks-non-compensated, 16hrs a week). You now must pass five exams with now less than 80% or you are gone. The tests are Book of Rules Mid-term and Final, Air Brake, Tickets and PTEP. Phase II (1month) compensated, meet with the union, out in the field, class room, work trains with Conductor Mentor and more on the job training.
Still want to the Job???????
I am currently in the LIRR Assistant Conductor training program which leads to being a qualified Conductor (2years you must qualify). Here is the process.
The process is long and to even get called is like hitting the lottery. You must send a reume to the LIRR and your work experience must have customer service. 1st Step - be able to pass a basic aptitude test and exploratory interview and have a clean credit report and background check.
Here's an interesting comment concerning the credit report. Federal law generally prohibits the disclosure of negative information that is more than seven years old (ten years for a bankruptcy). If, for example, you had an R9* or two back in 1990, your report will be free and clear and you won't have any problems getting credit cards or car loans or whatnot.
Federal law also provides, however, that the seven-year limit does not apply to credit reports requested by a prospective employer, at least not for better-paying jobs, a category that surely would include LIRR conductor jobs. As a result, a job applicant with, say, the R9 from 1990 may find himself ineligible for the LIRR job even though he may have perfect credit as far as lenders are concerned.
* = an R9, in this context, does not refer to the last of the prewar IND car models, but rather is the notation used on credit reports for a defaulted, charged-off credit card account. It is just about the worst possible thing to have on one's credit report, much worse than a bankruptcy, and is scarcely if at all improved if the account in question has been paid subsequent to default.
They do not want risk anyone messing with their money, the railroad is never short we were told. I have great credit so it was not concern of mine. I do not know what criteria the railroad uses, but I have to assume if you are any kind of risk, they are not going to waste the money train you and then have to fire you when you start taking their money because you are short on paying bills.
OK, I guess I've been listening to too much Dr. Demento (and the Kingston Trio in specific). That, and I must have far too much time on my hands.
Enjoy!
based upon Charlie and the MTA
--------------------------
Redbird Charlie on the IRT
--------------------------
Let me tell you all a story
About Redbird Charlie
And the legend that he came to be
He'd a Metrocard in hand
And some handles in his jacket
When he headed up to catch the IRT.
And did he ever return?
Oh no, he never returned
An his fate is still unlearned,
He may ride forever
'neath the Streets of Gotham
He's the railfan who never returned.
Charlie swiped his Metrocard
At the Wakefield Station
In the Bronx at a quarter past two
When he broke into the cab of Redbird 9730
He knew exactly what he had to do.
He hollered "What the Hell"
As he lined 'er parallel
When all the signals turned from red to green
He highballed from the station
When he got his indication
That's the last of that ol' Redbird that was seen.
And did he ever return?
Oh no, he never returned
An his fate is still unlearned,
He may ride forever
'neath the Streets of Gotham
He's the railfan who never returned.
He was careful not to slime her
As he slithered past the timers
And he cussed out the Maintenance of Way
They'd slowed the railroad to a crawl
So no lawyer'd take the fall
Now just to get from Queens to Brooklyn takes all day!
"I don't need no stinkin' sign up
I know how to read a line-up"
Shouted Charlie to the IRT
He passed right through Atlantic
Where Control was getting frantic
"Hey, your callsign isn't Pelham 1-2-3!"
And Will he ever return?
Oh no, he'll never return
An his fate will be unlearned,
He may ride forever
'neath the Streets of Gotham
He's the railfan who never returned.
He slowed down just a smidge
When he got to Brooklyn Bridge
Where the Dispatcher was wearing quite the frown
But he still gave him the ball
And Charlie roared through City Hall
Then he took 'er round the loop and back uptown
Now you citizens of Gotham
Don't you think it's tragic
That your history's being buried at sea
Fight the Redbird Reef
Keep the cars in service!
And get Charlie off the IRT.
And Will he ever return?
Oh no, he'll never return
An his fate will be unlearned,
He may ride forever
'neath the Streets of Gotham
He's the railfan who never returned.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Note: The author does not officially sanction the stealing of subway trains, breaking into cabs or other such unlawful acts. It's a work of fun and fiction. Deal!
It was beu-t-ful!
Virginia Division - BMT
Niiiice song!!
Would probably go good with some kind of Queen riff, eh?
Peter,
RailFan-tastic.
and you are showing your age.
Passing by the 207th Street Yard on an uptown IRT #1 train yesterday (Sunday, August 26, 2001), I had seen R-26's #7764-7765, #7782-7783 and R-28's #7950-7951 already stripped of their parts, in mostly likely for preparation as the next group of "Redbirds" to be going out to sea soon. One R-33 ten-car train was also sitting on one of the easternmost layup tracks in the yard, and the R-110B set is just sitting there like a sore thumb.
-William A. Padron
is it still here or did it leave cause it was a mistake again?, by the way, when will we see more? this month should have been the first month with r62a's in service on the 7
They should be comin' in there very soon (within a few weeks) because the 142's are in full force service already on the 6, and I'm sure they're still arriving in full force, too.
I was at the Met game Friday night and walked by the yard on the way to the LIRR. I didn't see any.
The one R62A that has arrived was in the shop and out of plain sight, according to Bill from Maspeth.
Riding out the 7 to the game, I noticed many more mainline R36's than previously used.
Keep checking the posts here, if they start running them, you'll find it here.
"Bill from Maspeth" never said the R-62A was in the barn at Corona. He asked whether the person who reported not seeing it in the yard (after someone had reported seeing it a few days before) had discounted the POSSIBILITY that it was in the barn.
As for when they'll be running on the #7, the best answer is, "eventually." All of the R-142 and R-142A cars should be in before the end of 2003. When all of the new cars are in, the #7 will be all R-62A -- however, when it starts and what the rate of replacement will be, I don't have information to say.
David
Do you know from where these R-62s will come in? Will they come from Pelham or from Livonia or where?
They're R-62As, not R-62s, and no, I don't know which line will be supplying the cars for the #7 line. It could be #1/#9, #3, #6, or a combination. Remember, around 400 cars will be needed.
David
Are the assignments from 1998 posted on this site accurate to just before the R-142's first use?
I don't have a car service list from just before the R-142 and R-142A cars entered service in earnest. I have the current list in the office. There are some changes from the 1998 requirements.
David
Did my annual farm team baseball week-end in Bridgeport, CT & had a unexpaected treat.
My seat was row one, #8, behind home plate (our trip coor, reserves VERY early). Streaight ahead of me was the NH ROW, so during the games I was treated to many Acelas, FL9s, Cosmopolitans, & AEM7s.
Mr t__:^)
Are the redbirds now resting at the bottom of the Atlantic packing em'in like sardines?
I guess I now have to listen to the "WCBS" AM "marine traffic report" for news on the redbirds.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Still some left in the system ... see Daves photos of them getting dumped if you want to be sick.
Mr t__:^)
Not all of them. Haven't you read the NYT article of the first Redbirds overboard on Aug. 21? They are dumping them at a rate of 20 Redbird cars per week for the next 20 weeks.
(I HAVE NO DOUBT TO THIS FACT BECAUSE IT'S STRAIGHT FROM THE NY TIMES)
But the question is, that leaves 600 Redbird cars still in service on NYCT.
: )
Railfan Pete.
According to other newspaper articles on the subject, 300 cars will end up in the water off one of the Carolinas (North, I think). The articles went on to say that NYCT is negotiating with other states (including New York) to take the rest.
David
Luckily on Sunday (yesterday), I spotted the GRANDEUR Comet IV car #5009 trailing behind a set of Comet 3's heading to Newark whizzing past us at Newark Int'l Airport Rail Station.
It was a North Jersey Coast Line train. The train was moving too fast for the ALP-44 #'s or any of the car#'s but here's how I simply noticed the Comet IV.
The Comet IV #5009 has a THIN BLACK LINE, not a thick one, like the normal Comet IV's, and the NJT's tri-colored stripes are small because of this.
So whenever one sees a Comet car with a thin black line and the tri-colored stripes THROUGH the line, not AFTER IT like the Comet 3's, you've instantly noticed the #5009, FORMERLY OWNED BY THE MTA.
Second news in the agenda:
Does ANYONE know where the TWO COMET V test cars are located in the NJT rail system today? They were supposed to have them in by August 2001.
Boy I can't wait! All 116 Refurbished Comet II cars will return to NJT service by early 2002, and also the Comet V car delivery sometime soon, and the bi-level rail cars in 2004. : )
Railfan Pete.
Luckily on Sunday (yesterday), I spotted the GRANDEUR Comet IV car #5009 trailing behind a set of Comet 3's heading to Newark whizzing past us at Newark Int'l Airport Rail Station.
It was a North Jersey Coast Line train. The train was moving too fast for the ALP-44 #'s or any of the car#'s but here's how I simply noticed the Comet IV.
The Comet IV #5009 has a THIN BLACK LINE, not a thick one, like the normal Comet IV's, and the NJT's tri-colored stripes are small because of this.
So whenever one sees a Comet car with a thin black line and the tri-colored stripes THROUGH the line, not AFTER IT like the Comet 3's, you've instantly noticed the #5009, FORMERLY OWNED BY THE MTA.
Second news in the agenda:
Does ANYONE know where the TWO COMET V test cars are located in the NJT rail system today? They were supposed to have them in by August 2001.
Boy I can't wait! All 116 Refurbished Comet II cars will return to NJT service by early 2002, and also the Comet V car delivery sometime soon, and the bi-level rail cars in 2004. : )
Railfan Pete.
The bi-levels aren't even funded. I wish they'd get MU's instead. ALP-44's can't pull long trains, and ALP-46's will have only 25% more traction, which makes them as weak-kneed with a bi-level consist.
I like MUs, their acceleration kicks ass and since there's no engine to worry about 100% of the platform space can be utilized.
But, with MUs you have to maintain the equivalent to a complete engine for each unit (or pair).
I rode what I guess is a Comet IV on Thursday: it was #5028, sporting a very delicate pink (K-Car Pink?) interior and VERY RETRO seats with a prim-looking cornflower blue moquette. I like the half-moon ceiling vents over the door vestibules and the staggered aisle. The semi-railfan window was an added bonus. This loco didn't move too fast but rode very smoothly, and it was made by BOMBARDIER.
I was about to board an 8:00 train out of Newark Penn when the conductor told me the fare would be $5.50. He suggested I save $3.00 by using the ticket machine and he also told me that there was a train "right behind us". NOT!! There it was, 25 minutes behind! Enough time for me to miss the 8:30 flyer to Babylon. I had to settle for the SLOW LOCAL 9:07, an absolutely filthy train, it wasn't cleaned, there was food and beer and slop and puke all over the place, it stank like a sewer hole and the lights and A/C kept going on and off. This despicable coach was M-3 #9887. Brought back memories of those old MP-72 Diesel Coaches. I took a seat wherever I could get one; else I would have gone to another car. A most unpleasant journey.
wayne
I rode what I guess is a Comet IV on Thursday: it was #5028, sporting a very delicate pink (K-Car Pink?) interior and VERY RETRO seats with a prim-looking cornflower blue moquette. I like the half-moon ceiling vents over the door vestibules and the staggered aisle.
You've caught a Comet IV all right! Since the number was #5028, it must've been a CAB car.
I like the Comet IV's very much, but since they are push-pull commuter cars, they're acceleration given by the ALP-44 or diesel locomotive is not that great. MU's startup much faster than push-pulls.
NOTE: These Comet IV cars have a MAXIMUM speed of 77 1/2 MPH.
If you have a chance on the NEC or the North Jersey Coast Line, these trains rack up speed up to 70mph, but it really matters for what distance you travel them on.
ALL COMET IV cars are manufactured by Bombardier, Ltd.
I was about to board an 8:00 train out of Newark Penn when the conductor told me the fare would be $5.50. He suggested I save $3.00 by using the ticket machine and he also told me that there was a train "right behind us". NOT!! There it was, 25 minutes behind!
Was this on a weekend or a weekday? And did the train you encounter an Arrow III MU or a Comet IV car?
URGENT NOTE:(on weekdays) There is a NORTHEAST CORRIDOR train arriving Newark at 7:58PM, which would most likely be a set of Arrow III's.
The conductor made a mistake that the COAST LINE TRAIN was "right behind their train", because the COAST LINE arrives Newark at 8:16PM, which would make you miss your Flyer at 8:30.
Yes the OW fare to NY is $2.50, but a penalty will boot you up $3.
BUT, on WEEKENDS NORTHBOUND, the COAST LINE TRAIN is scheduled 14 minutes ahead of the NEC train that travels northbound.
The COAST LINE TRAIN has a direct arrival at Newark at 8:00PM, and the NEC train comes at 8:14PM. Guess the trains were running pretty late.
I don't know a whole lot about M-3's and such on the LIRR, but when in doubt, you should buy a ticket, and get on board the first train to NY.
Hope this helps. Sorry for a long post.
Railfan Pete.
Luckily on Sunday (yesterday), I spotted the GRANDEUR Comet IV car #5009 trailing behind a set of Comet 3's heading to Newark whizzing past us at Newark Int'l Airport Rail Station.
NOTE: I spotted it again trailing on the North Jersey Coast line en route to NY yesterday, likewise, as well.
It was a North Jersey Coast Line train. The train was moving too fast for the ALP-44 #'s or any of the car#'s but here's how I simply noticed the Comet IV.
The Comet IV #5009 has a THIN BLACK LINE, not a thick one, like the normal Comet IV's, and the NJT's tri-colored stripes are small because of this.
So whenever one sees a Comet car with a thin black line and the tri-colored stripes THROUGH the line, not AFTER IT like the Comet 3's, you've instantly noticed the #5009, FORMERLY OWNED BY THE MTA.
Second news in the agenda:
Does ANYONE know where the TWO COMET V test cars are located in the NJT rail system today? They were supposed to have them in by August 2001.
Boy I can't wait! All 116 Refurbished Comet II cars will return to NJT service by early 2002, and also the Comet V car delivery sometime soon, and the bi-level rail cars in 2004. : )
Railfan Pete.
Hello, again. What exactly was the "R" diversion involving the Man. bridge?
See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnr.htm
NOTE: SERVICE ADVISORY #4 WILL RING YOU THE MAIN BELL.
For a CONDENSED Subway Advisory Info. for the R train, here goes:
1) Trains detour through 63rd St. Tunnel for next weekend also.
2) Manhattan bound trains run express from 36th St. to Pacific Sts during Nites, Weekend, Holiday, 10 PM to 5 AM Mon to Fri, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Tue
Aug 27 to Sep 4
3) Manhattan bound trains run express from 36th St. to Pacific Sts During late nights, 10 PM to 5 AM Mon to Fri, 12:01 AM to 5 AM Sat to Mon, Aug 20 to 31
4)Manhattan-bound trains run on the Manhattan Bridge from Pacific to Canal Sts
Weekend, Holiday, 10 PM Fri to 5 AM Tue, Aug 31 to Sep 4
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnr.htm
NOTE: SERVICE ADVISORY #4 WILL RING YOU THE MAIN BELL.
For a CONDENSED Subway Advisory Info. for the R train, here goes:
1) Trains detour through 63rd St. Tunnel for next weekend also.
2) Manhattan bound trains run express from 36th St. to Pacific Sts during Nites, Weekend, Holiday, 10 PM to 5 AM Mon to Fri, 12:01 AM Sat to 5 AM Tue
Aug 27 to Sep 4
3) Manhattan bound trains run express from 36th St. to Pacific Sts During late nights, 10 PM to 5 AM Mon to Fri, 12:01 AM to 5 AM Sat to Mon, Aug 20 to 31
4)Manhattan-bound trains run on the Manhattan Bridge from Pacific to Canal Sts
Weekend, Holiday, 10 PM Fri to 5 AM Tue, Aug 31 to Sep 4
Hope this helps.
For historical and IMPORTANT NJT NEWS and INFO. visit MICHAEL STEINBERG's WEBSITE AT:
www.hobokenterminal.com
Among the many topics include:
1) Greenwood Lake Service to Hoboken???
2) NJ has purchased Lackawanna Cutoff. Service will resume within the next 10 years.
3) Comet II REFURBISHED PHOTO and link to Maryland's Rebuilding Co.'s WEBSITE.
4) Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society
5) Diesels on the MontClair Branch.
EVERY railfan will FIND THIS SITE SATISFYING!
Be sure to thank Michael Steinberg for his hard work and effort into building his site.
His e-mail address is: u34ch@hobokenterminal.com
Have Fun.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Pete,
Why is it you think that everyone here likes all types of RailFanning?
While I am sure a lot of the people here enjoy Railroads and such, there a lot of people (myself included) who prefer to concentrate on the SUBWAY.
I, personally, have no objection to you continuing to post that type of information as it will be of interest to many here but please stop saying "EVERY RAILFAN" because it is not even close to the reality of the situation.
YOU KNOW ALLAN, POSSIBLY IF YOU GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF NYC AND LOOK AROUND YOU FOR A CHANGE, AND SEE WHAT THE REAL WORLD IS LIKE, MAYBE YOU'LL BE A RAILFAN WITH A LOT OF DIFFERENT RAIL COMPANIES EVEN IN THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE U.S. ALSO!
Railfan Pete.
Peter,
Grow up.
What do you mean? I have grown up with SEVERAL MAJOR rail companies:
AMTRAK: Nationwide's largest provider of commuter rail, and thruway connection services.
NJ TRANSIT: Nation's third largest provider of Bus, Rail, and Light-Rail vehicles serving commuters of several millions daily.
MTA: North America's largest provider of public transportation services. (LIRR, Subway, and Bridges & tunnels)
Subway is only one BRANCH of the MTA. And telling someone to grow up when the person who's asking knows only about the Subway?
Railfan Pete.
Howdy, guy ... lemme 'splain what we got here. As you know, there's plenty of railfan sites out there for folks who love playing "spot the hot box on that CSX consist" ... the folks here have developed a specialized place for subways and trolleys, urban style transit. You know how the big railroad fans are about "toy trains" and "subways not being a real railroad" and thus, this place is kinda special for those who like their "toy trains" rather than big smelly diesels fouling up the woods.
And just so ya know, I live right by the Selkirk yard - ain't no subways here, so all there IS is "smelly diesels fouling the woods" ... heh.
But don't take it personally, this is an isolated siding and I much prefer its focus on non-major railroads ... just wanted to explain the motivations of many here, in the city, diesels aren't allowed by law (except in special cases like the SBK) and so the concept is quite foreign to subway buffs ... just so's ya know.
Thanks, but I think from this point I will do what a lot of people have been doing with Raifan Pete's postings - ignoring them.
Ah well ... one tries to explain things since there's always new folks dropping by that don't know the territory as yet. I've always found that when there's stuff I'm JUST not interested in, it gets you through subtalk faster diverging and doing a skip stop. :)
YOU KNOW ALLAN, POSSIBLY IF YOU GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF NYC AND LOOK AROUND YOU FOR A CHANGE, AND SEE WHAT THE REAL WORLD IS LIKE, MAYBE YOU'LL BE A RAILFAN WITH A LOT OF DIFFERENT RAIL COMPANIES EVEN IN THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE U.S. ALSO!
As I like to say, the world doesn't end at the Hudson.
I happen to think Pete has hit the nail on the head, and I really don't think much of rail transit -- that said, I've been a lot more interested in subways since I've been reading this board, but I'm still more of a railroad fan/railroader than I'm a transit person. So, there are railfans on this board, and let's keep it that way.
In his defense, railfan makes many people think more of railroads than subways, light rail, trolleys, etc. On this site we toss the term around for anything that has metal wheels and runs on rails, but you kinda have to have some interest in railroads to be a railfan on pretty much any other board in existence.
>>> In his defense, railfan makes many people think more of railroads than subways, light rail, trolleys, etc. <<<
"Railfan" may very well imply the big railroads, but this site is dedicated to New York subways and other urban transit. Pete has been reading the board long enough to recognize that. From Pete's past exhibitions of Foot in Mouth syndrome, it was clear to me that a title saying EVERY rail fan would LOVE that site could not possibly be correct. :-)
Tom
P.S. This post should not be interpreted as an attempt to censor Pete. As far as I am concerned, I welcome his posts, even if some of them promise more than they deliver.
True.
I do get annoyed by posts that promise more than they deliver (how many times have you fallen for "R-142s on the 5" or "R-62s on the 7"?). I find this "EVERY RAILFAN" one annoying as the site linked to is already on my bookmarks list!
I beleive most readers here take all claims and promises with a fistfull of salt.
I'm sure your enthusiastic support of this afore mentioned site is one of a generous nature, and wish to share with your colleagues here.
I for one thank you for this additional site.
Many here have an interest in rail related things. We have our favorites and interests of last resort.
To promote that a site is the"CATS ASS" for all, is a stretch.
I think Subtalkers lean towards subways , transit, traction and commuters. Not in that order for everyone.
To be sure though, this is a very active and diverse and interesting site.
The many personalities lend an educating flavor as far as I'm concerned. I've gathered a lot of information from professionals, students and and exraterritorials as well as native railfaners of the loacal variety. Don't let the negativity or narrow view of a few deter you from future sharings.
A short while ago I was turned on to a site, Davespics something .
It has great photoes of stuff from all over. Saalem was the source, a great many here disagree with him on a lot of topics. Thats ok , but he has information that he shares, and I've grown because of it.
Thanks for the site.
avid
Is it true that back in the past if you want it a subway map you had to buy it for a $1 I think at the tooken booth? Because my Mom told me that when she came to NYC in 1984 for the first time to stay here she told me that she bought a subway map for a $1 @ the station booth. Why did in those days you had to buy subway map for? Was there any reason why the MTA were selling subway maps to the public to buy? Because she thinks that they were collecting more money to make changes in the subway system @ that time like overhauling subway cars & station repairs and others.
I've been riding the subway on my own since 1987 or so, and I've never had to buy a map. They've always been for free. I'm not sure about 1984.
:-) Andrew
wha' you mean not sure about 1984?
why is '84 a special year?
wha' you mean not sure about 1984?
why is '84 a special year?
Because that's the year that amin peralta's mother had to pay a dollar for a subway map, by his own account.
Andrew
the year 1984 was the year we bought our houses in flushing. I was 10, I could walk over to the transit museum or mta hq to grab a handful of them for free.
or you could have sent out for one.
Thats a long walk from Flushing to downtown Brooklyn.
Virginia Division - BMT
when you are young, anything is possible.
He took a shortcut.:-)
Maps have always been free at change booths.
Official NYC Subway Maps issued by the MTA (or its predecessors) have always been free.
If your Mom paid $1.00 it is because the clerk took her for $1.00.
I can't be sure but this may be one of the reasons the word "Free" is now placed on the cover of each map.
They tried the same trick on me in 1963. I say "You're Kidding!" and the clerk backed down.
Virginia Division - BMT
That why they NOW say free... IIRC, they used to say $1.00 or $.50 or something... I think there was a price...
"IIRC, they used to say $1.00 or $.50 or something... I think there was a price... "
Nope.... They weree always free, and there was never a price marked on them.
Elias
It has to be the token clerks were pocketing the money back then. I'm sure map count was not on the cash count sheet (or whatever they call it).
Subway maps in New York were always free. Some token clerks were a bit dishonest.
Virginia Division- BMT
I just took at a look at the front (& back) covers of the NYC subway maps that I've gotten from eBay, to see when the maps were designated "free" (or if any had a price tag).
1998/01 - 2001/01 Doesn't say anything about being free
1995/11 - 1997/03 "FREE" on front cover
1968 - 1995/05 Doesn't say anything about being free
1967 Front cover: "Compliments of the NYCTA"
1948/12 - 1964 Doesn't say anything about being free
I also have a Board of Transportation map that is undated but seems to be from 1944. It has a completely blank cover surface, only the map side is printed. None of the maps has a price tag.
So, for most of history, you can't tell from the map itself whether you could be charged for the official subway map.
At least until the 1950s, lots of banks and hotels were handing out complimentary subway maps, but they seem to have been displaced by the official maps.
The earliest 'official' subway maps -- issued by the BoT before 1958 -- were actually drawn by Hagstroms, who have always sold their maps. Hagstrom's own-brand maps were 25c in the 1940s, 35c in the 1950s, and $2.95 when I visited the States last year. (Tauranac's subway maps were $2.50 monolingual, $2.95 multilingual, so that's evidently the going rate.) Assuming a rate of inflation of 50c a decade, the Hagstrom's map should have cost $2 in 1984, so if Amin Peralta's mum was paying $1 for subway maps in 1984, she would have been getting a bargain even though it wasn't free.
I don't know of any country where the transit authority sells maps of its own system. Here in London, the Tube Map has always been free, although throughout most of history the cover of the map does not actually say this.
Peter
are you squirrelgraycat?
I can go back to 1976, and there was never a payment for any map for the system. Bus and Subway maps were always free.
You young young kids......
I remember the maps back in the early '60s and those were all free.
I think that 1960s vintage map was the first one put out by the TA as a unified map. The IND lines were all in red, the BMT in green, and the IRT lines were shown in black. IINM it was also the first map put out by the TA, before that were separate IND, BMT, and IRT maps. These were not put out by the TA, but were printed inside the covers of the phone book IIRC.
Elias
I have a map from Dec.1st,1948 issued by the
Board of Transportation
250 Hudson St.
New York 13, N.Y.
The IND lines are all in red.
The BMT lines are all in yellow.
The IRT lines are all in blue.
All three systems are represented on one map!
interestingly, there was also one dated nov. 28, 1948. that is the earliest unified one that i am aware of. when time permits, i will check to see if there are any differences between the two.
They had separate division maps back then as well. One of the three divisions would be bold while the other two would be drawn smaller. I have one of each of those maps, having picked them up back in 1986 or thereabouts at Shore Line. An oddity on the BMT map is that there is no mention whatsoever of the Culver line even though it was still a BMT through route back then and is shown as such.
is shore line a store where old maps can be purchased?
It is a trolley museum in Branford (or East Haven), Connecticut, formerly known as the Branford Trolley Museum.
They may have a few but ebay is your best bet:
the best search keyword : subway -(poster) This excludes the tons of London Underground Posters that always seem to be available and also makes it easier to look at subway related items.
You could also key in: subway map if that is all you want to look for but sometimes the descriptions don't have the word map in it.
Don't get me started on Philadelphia's $7 map.
Last week, I was on an "A" bound for Far Rock. It was made up of R/38s. The car I boarded sans AC was not to occupied. I was seated in the fourth car from the rear. All four side windows were open, but seemed to have very little effect on the hot air. IT was still a sweat box.
I had gotten a seat near the rear railfan door. In the pre GOH days one could latch the door opened. This is no longer the case.
I tried holding the door with my right foot. That didn't work to well. Then a blinding flash of heypaul mechanics hit me.
I removed my July 2001 subway map from my carry-all, rolled it up tightly and wedeged the map between the door and the sidewall.
Viola! The door stayed open. The hot tepid air waffted across my sweaty brow to the song of the wheels singing on the rails. On the rare occasions when the oposite end door was opened you could really feel the draft.
AC is good. AC is a friend. That map finally turned out to be useful.
avid
Some cars still have the latches.
The R-33 singles (thankfully) have them. Some other Redbirds, but not all (IINM), do as well. The R-62A's have them at the transverse cabs; both times I've ridden the 1 south of Chambers Street in recent weeks, the C/R has folded up his cab and latched the storm doors open. The R-68's also have them. (There may be others.)
Any "Redbirds" other than the single R-33s that still have latches to hold open the storm doors have them by mistake. They were removed when the cars were retrofitted with air conditioning in the late 1970s/early 1980s.
David
Why were subsequent purchases ordered with latches(which were later removed)ie, r-62 r-68 etc,
Peace,
ANDEE
I recall that the latch removal fad happened much later on, perhaps
the early 1990s.
I think the R-68's still have latches. They don't see much use since the doors are generally locked, but they're there.
Or at least the latch was in place (and active) about a month ago when someone managed to open the storm door in the car I was riding. The cool breeze was most welcome until a spoil-sport unlatched the door.
The R68 and R68A both have latches. You may need some time to figure out the latch on the R68A but it's there.
BLASPHEMER...
You dare use the map in such a way?
may the God of Subway Maps see fit to rain a Thunderbolt up your Bunghole... ;-)
Can anyone tell me the type of neighborhood Rego park is, especially around Lefrak City. I have not been there in over 26 years. It then was Middle class Jewish
Can anyone tell me the type of neighborhood Rego park is, especially around Lefrak City. I have not been there in over 26 years. It then was Middle class Jewish
As far as I know it's still a pretty decent neighborhood. It's not on the level of nearby Forest Hills, but is reasonably stable and safe.
Thanks Pete
Rego Park is a Major Aera and by 63 Dr It's BUSY and there's ALOT of traffic around Lefrak City(On Queens Blvd.) And thing's CHANGE BIG TIME! In 1998.Sears,Marchalls,and one other store open where Alexander's used to be.McDounds and Durene Rere Open's up. In 2000. CompUSA open up. Burger King on Queens Blvd was Remodelled in 1998 and it started to get MORE BUSY then before 1998.
There's NOT Many Jewish people around in Rego Park since Who know's when! Kew Gardens(Where I Live.) have ALOT of Jewish people(Fround ALOT of Jewish people liveing south of the Kew Gardens LIRR Station. There's some liveing in my Buliding and a Jewish Family on the Floor I live on.)
The problem with Rego Park is that it's situated on the local line, not the express. That was a major consideration for my wife and I when we were looking for an apartment a few years ago. After living in Elmhurst (also on the local) she wanted no part of riding that G or R again. The platform at Roosevelt Avenue can get 3 deep on weekday afternoons when there's a delay. If you find something near 67th Avenue, you can always walk to Continental. We live 2 1/2 blocks from that station and the E and F run fairly well. Another bonus is the LIRR station in Forest Hills one block away which comes in mighty handy on the weekends and late nights. Other than that Rego Park is fine although it does seem to be a bit congested with all the retail activity in the area. Parking is tough as well.
I believe that the area around Lefrak City, the area north of the LIE, has a large concentration of Indian/Pakastani residents. Especially in the Lefrak City Complex itself. Several years ago, an Indian young man from the complex was killed in a mugging and several days later his fiancee (who lived with her parents in another part of the complex) comitted suicide by jumping off the balcony. Based on the tone of the article, I got the impression that the area north of the expressway has changed the ethnicity and religous make-up and is no longer predominantly middle-class and jewish.
I believe that the area around Lefrak City, the area north of the LIE, has a large concentration of Indian/Pakastani residents. Especially in the Lefrak City Complex itself. Several years ago, an Indian young man from the complex was killed in a mugging and several days later his fiancee (who lived with her parents in another part of the complex) comitted suicide by jumping off the balcony. Based on the tone of the article, I got the impression that the area north of the expressway has changed the ethnicity and religous make-up and is no longer predominantly middle-class and jewish.
It's not predominately Jewish any more, but it's still middle class.
Well my wife is Filipina so our family will be 2/3 filipio and 1/3 Jewish. We are including my mother in law
All of which means absolutely zilch, even if you could surmise it from the article (which you can't).
You want to know something about a neighborhood? Read up on census data, get a commerce dept report from the city, go there and look around, read a newspaper's real-estate section and check pricing. Trying to get a sense of what a neighborhood is like from reading a crime story is worthless. That's for people with no social skills and no self-confidence. You can do better.
I will next time I am up in the city, hopefully in the next few weeks
What ever happened to the Italians? Are there any real Italian neighborhoods still in the city? From what I'm hearing they are all moving to Long Island.
You've heard correctly. But this was news almost 20 years ago.
Speaking of Italians, the San Genarro feast is right around the corner. I can't wait to walk down Mulberry Street with a Sausage sandwich and I beer in my hand. Oops, better make that a soda. Didn't Guiliani ban beer at all NYC street fairs?
when is the feast?
Early September. I don't remember the dates. It runs for two whole weekends.
Thanks
There are alot of Russians moving in. And they're all Jewish, so it's still somewhat of a Jewish middle class neighborhood in that sense. But nearby Corona/Jackson Heights is growing into Rego Park.
If possible, try to move to Kew Gardens. You'll find the rents to be similar, or just slightly higher, while the quality of life is much higher. And, you'll have the E and F trains available to you.
I live in the heart of Forest Hills, and it's going to hold up for some time, but the handwriting is on the wall. I figure I'll be here another four or five years before I have to move to Bayside, or Fresh Meadows.
But if you have your heart set on Rego Park, try to get in on the portion between the LIRR and Woodhaven Blvd, along 63rd. It's still nice over there.
Yeah Jackson Heights/Corona is not one of the nicer areas of Queens that's for sure. It has probably affected Flushing too, as it is starting to look more like the Heights.
In the long run I think Forest Hills will be fine, it's got the LIRR, four subway lines, plenty of high end retail and expensive houses, I don't see that changing anytime.
What "handwriting" do you see on the wall? Forest Hills looked fine last time I was there. In Flushing, is where all the "handwriting" is.
The handwriting I am referring to is the clientele now found on Austin Street. It's just not the same. And on 108th just past the High School, which is still very Jewish, attracts a very transient collection of people.
For example, visit the bodega on 108th and 65th in Forest Hills, especially at night, and you'll see.
That is where my family used to live. I am looking for convience to direct exp bus service or subway service. Also under $1000 for a 1 bed room, which is 35 pct more then I am paying for a 3 bedroom in Virginia.
I live in the heart of Forest Hills, and it's going to hold up for some time, but the handwriting is on the wall. I figure I'll be here another four or five years before I have to move to Bayside, or Fresh Meadows.
Neighborhood change isn't always a one-way street. Consider, just as one example, Park Slope - in Pete Hammill's book A Drinking Life, Park Slope in the late 1940's and early 1950's is described as a rundown near-ghetto (other accounts support that view), yet look at it today. Williamsburgh and Long Island City are examples of other neighborhoods that seem to be on the upswing.
I haven't really heard about any noticeable deterioration in Forest Hills. Its good housing stock and (on-topic) decent transit connections should help shield it from any serious trouble. But even if you are correct and the neighborhood is going downhill, it may very well turn around.
Stil is, mostly. If you're going to be in the area, email me; we can grab lunch!
-Hank
1. How do the DayPass work on the MFL and BSL/BSS?
2. Is it HARD to find a Push-Pull on R7 on Weekends?
3. How do I get to the MFL after I get off the R7 at 30 St Station?
Thanks! :)!
The DayPass is good on City Transit (which includes the Market-Frankford El and the Broad Street Subway). I'm not sure if the changes went into effect yet but it was supposed to be extended to Suburban Transit with the fare hike. The only place it's not unlimitedly good is Regional Rail where one gets a one-way trip, unless this has changed.
Push-pulls are only out in the peak hours. On R7 you'll probably find 2-car or 3-car Silverliner trains on weekends.
When you leave the commuter area at 30th St, stay along the west side corridor once you enter the main part of the station (walk in a straight line since the commuter ramp is on the west side). Exit the southwest doors, after passing the food court, and follow the diagonal crosswalks through the parking roadways toward the 30th & Market intersection (I believe there are signs directing you to the El/subway-surface along this corridor in the station). Cross 30th St at the intersection and you'll see two sets of stairways which lead to the subway. (This can be done underground at Suburban Station and Market East. The previous underground connection at 30th, now closed, may be coming back if SEPTA has its way.)
I'd like to see it come back. It would offer SEPTA an opportunity to offer ADA-compliance to the subway station by allowing passengers to exit from the railroad station.
If you recall the old underpass, part of its shortcomings was the change in vertical alignment - only a couple of times, but enough to require steps. This would work against ADA. At the 30th St end, there were escalators, which technically don't meet ADA but could be modified.
The real sticky point with the underpass was the horizontal alignment. It was like a maze. There were many 90-degree and similar turns that made it a haven for crime. It also had poor drainage, but this could be improved.
SEPTA is apparently interested for just that reason (ADA). It will require an elevator from concourse to El platform at the very least. Whether elevators will be built to the subway-surface platforms remains to be seen - of course, at present, the subway-surface is not accessible, but all indications seem to point to the next generation of car for this line will be low-floor. Keep in mind that the K cars are only 20 years old, so who knows when they will be replaced.
At least as of 3 months ago, a push-pull set would arrive in Trenton on train 9745 in the evening and be laid up on 7 track North of the station until the next morning (train 714?-not sure) when a crew would swing it over to 5 track. It'll be sitting there all weekend. Happy hunting.
The Eggman
...Oh Babs, the Eggman is here...
the AM train is 9724
EGGS!
Eggman -- what does EGGS mean? And why are you always asking people, "Who is the eggman"?
Thanks
Lexcie
It's a movie reference-I couldn't come up with a decent handle so I figured I'd have some fun with a lousy one. For the record, I had (until recently) signed off with...
...are you the Eggman?
Enough about me- on with the choo-choos.
EGGS!
So they keep that train there incase a R7 Train is running VERRY LATE or a Train broke down?
I'm running for MTA president (fake race) on the Straphangers Campaign Site. I was wondering about your ideas for the subways if you were able to do something. We all have ideas, dreams, and the imagination. So what would you do for the subways if you were the MTA president?
If I was MTA President, I'll try to do alot and get money from anywhere (I'd be Optimistic). I'd get the 2nd Avenue Subway Built in the best possible way. Try to get planning on a LGA Extention, so NY can have a train going to an airport finally. Most likely I would try to figure out a way to extend the G to LGA since its a shortening route. I would also make use of the Chrystie Street Connection. I try to make that Super Express Idea Work, and use rarely used LIRR Tracks and convert them into Subway. Just maybe find away to get the North Shore ROW on Staten Island a second lease on life.
-Vekter
And you are going to get this money from who?
I'll get money from where ever, yeah I know its not realistic, but hey he said fantasies. Maybe I'd have MTA Sponsered FanTrips and Tours to places like the S 4th Street Station Shell or the Utica Avenue Shell and maybe find other hidden places in the infrastructure, because most likely, the MTA President should know all the places hidden inside the transit system. But the money raised from events like this can help push planning and contruction on some other project besides the 2nd Avenue Subway.
-Vekter
The capital program says that the LIRR ROW will be used for a new layup track
Let's approach this as if I really am president, at this time, and with this budget.
I would scream loud and hard to have at least provisions for express tracks on the second avenue subway, before any more "studies" are conducted re the 2 track s(t)u(pid)way.
Second, I would make sure that there are enough HEETs in place to compensate for the dwindling S/A staff, and that they are properly maintained.
Third, I would ride tail on the DOT to make sure the Manny-B repairs are done on time.
Fourth, I would push for control of the subway division to be turned back over to the city. There is no reason why Governor Pataki and his suburban constituents should have an equal say over the fate my commute to work. And before you gripe about suburbanites funding their share of the subway, remember, my New York City taxes fund a good deal of the pork upstate too.
Fifth, I would ride the damn subway every freakin' day, and if I see a problem that's not being taken care of, use my authority to get it fixed ASAP. The buck would stop with me. Period.
Sixth, for PR value, I would offer monthly railfan excursion trips using equipment in service and museum equipment with front windows. Students would ride free, and docents and technical personnel would be on hand to answer questions about the system. These trips would be limited in passengers to avoid the throngs that cram the Nostalgia trips today. Or, I would allow the ERA, etc., to charter excursions more often, for a nominal fee.
That's all I've got, for now.
Keystone Pete
Better yet, hire everyone on Subtalk. The system will run better than ever.
Paul
I seriously doubt that. More like the system will be in a severe fiscal crisis.
And passengers will be forced away by the old, noisy, unA/Ced cars that would follow the Subtalkers.
Heypaul for vice president, then!
I would do whatever it takes to speed up the trains. Redo the braking systems, upgrade the signals, and restore the final field shunt step. Leisurely transit, blahhh!!!!!
Or we could just lose about half the !@#$% timers.
Hire more of us 'tards.
EGGS!
An egg-cellent idea.:-)
Me as MTA President? Is there anyone out there who doesn't know what I would do?
Privatize the company run it for profit raise the fares to $5.00 like any right wing Regan Republican would, or stop and drill for oil for Cheney s and Georgie Boys buddies. The hell with the little people
It is Reagan, not Regan. And why don't you tell those out there that by your own admission you are more Conservative than I am on MANY issues. If you were honest with yourself you would let them know that. There would be no drilling in Coney Island and money would be allocated to improve the subway lines, make the Sea Beach a National Historical Site, revamp Coney Island and make a small part of it the Presidential summer retreat. Got it?
What President would go to Coney island, the last 3 thatwent there were Demos, because the Republicans knew they still would not get any voters. There are only 428,000 registered Republicans in NYC according to todays Washington Post
Believe me if I were to run for President and got to be well known I'd get a hell of a lot more than 428,000 votes from New York City. As you are reluctant to say I am a Republican that many independents and Democrats would love.
As a person and friend yes. As a politician, 8 years of reganonomics and now the George Bush 7 months of lies no
As you are reluctant to say I am a Republican that many independents and Democrats would love.
As long as you tell the Religious Wrong where they can shove it, then you've got my support.
Privatize the company run it for profit raise the fares to $5.00 like any right wing Regan Republican would, or stop and drill for oil for Cheney s and Georgie Boys buddies. The hell with the little people base itlike Brit Rail did and watch oit go worse
Privatize the company run it for profit raise the fares to $5.00
Good, you're making sense. If this really was Fred's plan, I'd want him in power, only if it came with roadway tolls and parking fees that charge the real price of auto-ownership.
Getting on Fred due to his worship of Reganonomics
I'd resign to protest the excessive debt in the MTA capital plan, and it's negative effect on the future of the network.
I would immediately hire Heypaul as my head consulting engineer, of course...;-D
1) Increase service on surface and rapid lines to match ridership increases.
2) Accelerate implementation of Guide-A-Rides at all stations and bus stops.
3) Restore service cuts imposed in 1991/1992.
4) Aggressive Second Avenue project.
5) Consolidate executive positions within management. Eliminate duplicate jobs.
6) Reduce dependence on company vehicles. If you work for the TA, use the TA.
7) Probe possibility of off peak fare discounts.
8) Maintain certain percentage of Redbirds to be used as gaps, extras, rush hours put ins, etc. for increased service on Lexington IRT, as space permits.
9) Expand Park and Ride in outlying outer towns in the boros (Upper Bronx, Eastern/Southern Queens, Eastern/Southern Brooklyn) to encourage hard-core drivers to use system.
10) Begin aggressive inquiry into a BMT-IND connection in the Gold Street area, and/or 15th Street/Park area in Brooklyn.
11) Begin studies for double or single twin tube tunnel, from Gold Street area in Brooklyn to Hester/Bowery/Canal in Manhattan, with provisions for all BMT/IND connections, as possible.
Put my name in the newspapers as often as possible, making sure people know my name
Agressively push major project into construction, making sure to build it in stages so that some part can be open within my term.
Increase subway and bus service to encourage greater ridership
Cut costs through greater automation and by milking every possible advertising outlet.
Establish uniform fare system between commuter RRs and subways and busses.
Make sure to take customer satisfaction surveys and try to increase approval ratings, all the while making sure that the people know who's responsible for them.
Add yet more cars to R-142 order to make sure that service demands are met and that the hated Redbirds are gone as soon as humanly possible.
Hire consultants to create innovative plans to have people not hold doors and/or not litter.
When seat opens, run for governor or U.S. Senate.
8- put spikes on the doors :)
You have to avoid killing people so they can vote for you.
I think that my plan is the only one guided exclusively by self-interest, without the slightest desire to improve something just for the sake of fellow man.
I think that my plan is the only one guided exclusively by self-interest, without the slightest desire to improve something just for the sake of fellow man.
Well, admitedly my ideas are pretty Queens-heavy. That would bennefit me.
But then Queens pretty much got screwed subway-wise, so why the hell no!
I would immediately grant all posters on Subtalk a free monthly Metrocard!
Send all parents with strollers they insist on pushing out (hence usually getting stuck in) the doors, as well as those that think teaching their kids to walk down the steps is a fabulous thing to do during rush hour, live and direct to manhattan state. do not pass go, do not get your 200 rubels. das vedanya.
For capital expansion, my priorities would be as follows:
1. Second Ave line from 63rd (or 57th) to 125th.
2. Hillside extention of the (F) as far as you could go in a few years. Francis Lewis maybe. Springfield if it's possible. Four track if doable. 2 track is OK.
3. Extension of (N) to LaGuardia
4. Second Ave southern half, hooking into either Chrystie (seems natural, since Chrystie St is an extension of 2nd Ave) or the (J)(M)(Z).
5. Extensions of both ends of the (7) line, eastbound would be tough because of the blockage caused by the revamp of the Main St station. I'd like the western extension to involve some service tracks to connect it directly to the (1)(2)(3)(9), so moving A division equipment won't be so hard.
6. Look into a new (K) line branching off the (L) and continuing down Metropolitan Ave and maybe Union Tpke as far east as possible. Just something for the more distant future, to take pressure off other Queens lines.
Another idea, which I don't know where to prioritize, is a better transfer on 34th St/6th Ave. It seems to me, seeing as the lines cross each other, that you should be able to transfer directly between the (B)(D)(F) and the (N)(Q)(R) platform-to platform, without using the various mezanine levels. Considering how important a transfer point this is, something like this could be very valuable.
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
I know the Pres. of the TA wouldn't have this much power, but the hell with it.
1. Second Avenue Subway from Co-op city in the Bronx, through Manhattan, and into Brooklyn.
2. Extend the D train Eastbound in the Bronx to tie in to Co-op city.
3. 7 train extended to Hoboken New Jersey.
4. MAJOR headway improvements on the 2 and 5 lines.
5. Transit Museum moved. Stub of World Trade Center connected to Court Street Station via new underwater tubes.
6. Dyre line reconnected to New Haven Railroad south of East 180th. Dual service out of Dyre to both the current subway and to Penn station via the New Haven Connection.
7. < Q > service extended to Coney Island so people wouldn't have to guess sides at Brighton Beach all the time.
8. All stations wheelchair accessible by the year 2030.
9. All plans for automation terminated.
10. All plans to remove token clerks terminated.
11. Extra money for all projects to be raised by imposing 5 dollar toll for ALL non esential vehicals entering the city. This means people who could take mass transit instead of polluting and cluttering up the streets.
12. Also, to pay for improvements, raise fair to 1.75 once customers become happy with the new services. NOT BEFORE I DO ANYTHING!
13. Manhattan Bridge closed to non-rail traffice. Upgraded to 8 tracks to help feed 2nd Ave subway.
14. Vehicular traffic on Queensboro Bridge reduced to two lanes, one in each direction. Queensboro Plaza returned to pass splendor with 2nd Avenue Subway extension using that bridge as well.
15. Super underwater tunnel connecting Wall Street on the N and R to the SIRT in Staten Island.
16. N line extended from Astoria to LaGuardia Airport.
17. A line connection to JFK, not Airtrain!
18. Bridges on Rockaway line raised to boats can pass under without interrupting rail service.
19. 7 line connected to PATH in Hoboken.
I'm sure I'll think of more.
8. All stations wheelchair accessible by the year 2030.
Impossible
9. All plans for automation terminated.
10. All plans to remove token clerks terminated.
This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Are you going to bring back ticket choppers and conductors in every car? Maybe you should bring back the diseases and poor quality of life of the past too.
11. Extra money for all projects to be raised by imposing 5 dollar toll for ALL non esential vehicals entering the city. This means people who could take mass transit instead of polluting and cluttering up the streets.
13. Manhattan Bridge closed to non-rail traffice. Upgraded to 8 tracks to help feed 2nd Ave subway.
14. Vehicular traffic on Queensboro Bridge reduced to two lanes, one in each direction. Queensboro Plaza returned to pass splendor with 2nd Avenue Subway extension using that bridge as well.
All of these plans are even more stupid than your featherbedding ideas before, in case you've never realized, cars are important to commerce. Maybe you like living in a crappy, desolate city, in that case move to Detroit without screwing up everybody else's life.
These plans are obviously put forth because you can't drive. Why don't you be an adult about and not take it away from everybody else?
Um, just ideas my friend. There not going to happen, nor will I aquire the power to do them. I didn't mean to offend the driving community. Whew.
1-2,i have no oppinion on,
3, would be hard to decide who will Pay for running service
4, A good Idea (the ta should also get many new cars)
5, Where would the TM go?
6, It would go to Grand Central
7, The ta Should already do this
8, I think that should be sooner( though might be impossible)
9,10 I strongly Dissagree with, Automation can lessen expenses and speed service
11, I personally like this, but most people wouldn't
12, After the car tolls go up people could ride for freewhile there is still more money than needed
13, if you did this you would have to build another bridge(Cable stayed bridges are cool!!!!!!!)
14, the 60th st tunnel would make more sense
15, that would be very expensive
16, Nimbys will stop you
17, the rockaways would hate that, but you could run the C there
18, I have no knowledge or oppinion on this matter
19, see 3
5. Transit Museum moved. Stub of World Trade Center connected to Court Street Station via new underwater tubes.
Aren't the BMT tracks blocking the way just south of WTC?
7. < Q > service extended to Coney Island so people wouldn't have to guess sides at Brighton Beach all the time.
There's no need to guess. Stay on the local one more stop to Sheepshead Bay and change there.
The local already uses both tracks at Stillwell. Where would you put the express?
8. All stations wheelchair accessible by the year 2030.
Physically impossible, unless you plan on ripping up most of the stations and rebuilding them from scratch.
9. All plans for automation terminated.
Why?
10. All plans to remove token clerks terminated.
Why?
11. Extra money for all projects to be raised by imposing 5 dollar toll for ALL non esential vehicals entering the city. This means people who could take mass transit instead of polluting and cluttering up the streets.
Who gets to decide which vehicles are essential? Wouldn't it make more sense to simply charge drivers for their actual costs, including pollution and clutter?
12. Also, to pay for improvements, raise fair to 1.75 once customers become happy with the new services. NOT BEFORE I DO ANYTHING!
That might pay for one or two of your proposed changes. What do you do about the rest?
14. Vehicular traffic on Queensboro Bridge reduced to two lanes, one in each direction. Queensboro Plaza returned to pass splendor with 2nd Avenue Subway extension using that bridge as well.
What do you have against the 63rd Street tunnel?
17. A line connection to JFK, not Airtrain!
I agree with you on this one!
"11. Extra money for all projects to be raised by imposing 5 dollar toll for ALL non esential vehicals entering the city. This means people who could take mass transit instead of polluting and cluttering up the streets. "
>>Who gets to decide which vehicles are essential? Wouldn't it make >>more sense to simply charge drivers for their actual costs, >>including pollution and clutter?
TAX MONEY FROM CASINO GAMBLING
As a union concession for automation, everytime a buff suggests a new line with a running time of over two hours let them operate two r/t on that line with a shoe paddle up their posterior.
what i would do is figure why the hell is there senseless service on some of the lines and then fix them. for instance, the 4 express that skips one stop. stretch it to burnside ave. another would be the v and w. those lines are simply not needed. (maybe the v is needed but i doubt it would stay under me.) ant last but not least, why the hell is the R running at night when it's not supposed to. it would either change the schedule on the map or make the R run the way it's supposed to. i would turn the Pay Per ride metrocard into a cash card that you can refill and refill. with this instead of just getting a ride alone, you could buy food, clothes, and other necessities that we need for everyday lives. the card would have an unlimited max amount that you could put money on. what would be good about it is that it doesn't act like a credit card. so there is no payment due at the end of the month and there is no finance charges. you just put money on it whenever you are ready to and use it until the card expires.
The 4 express (I assume you're referring to 138th Street) is kind of silly, but how popular is that stop? Trains could stop there but they might get held up by 5 trains.
The V brings a 33% (or so) increase in service between Queens Boulevard and Manhattan. Ask the Queens commuters on this board if they think an increase in service would be useful.
You say the W is not needed. Are you proposing shutting down the West End line (or maybe keeping it intact for N reroutes alone)?
The R is supposed to run as a shuttle in Brooklyn at night. (If the R didn't run at all, there would be no overnight Bay Ridge service.) Is it running north of 36th Street?
Credit cards do not charge finance charges if each statement is paid in full by the due date. If I charge $100 to my credit card today, I will have to pay the bank $100 no later than October 15 or thereabouts (my credit card bills are due approximately midmonth) to avoid a finance charge. If I wanted to charge $100 to my MetroCard today (assuming that were possible), I'd have to pay $100 no later than today. Obviously, if I have $100 cash to spend today, I can put that cash aside and pay it in October instead (and earn interest if I leave it in an interest-bearing bank account), avoiding a finance charge.
I would CLEAN THE WHOLE MESS AND MAKE THE STATIONS 100% CLEAN SO THAT I COULD ATTRACT PEOPLE!
When I arrived, I had 25 mins to decide whether I was to return on the same train, or whether I should stay for 1 hour 40 mins. So I checked out a few places, thought the town looked alright, and sat down at the station. There is a wye there which is fenced off from the commuter rail station, which is on the mainline. The wye seems to lead to some CSX storage tracks, perhaps the beginning of some branch line.
Just after the train left, several police cars showed up, all bailing their siren. All stopped about a block from the railroad crossing in town. I sat there and ate my lunch (bought from the convenience store). The police was walking around everywhere, and then a few fire trucks showed up. There was generally a huge frenzy of police activities.
During lunch, several dodgy geezers walked past.
Then when I returned to the station, some guy came up to a group of waiting passengers and started talking to us. Apparently, he had "just gotten out the detox" and "need a dollar", and he asked us how much the train fare was.
For all this, all I saw was a CSX local with ONE boxcar and a GP-38. I'm not going back there again. That town is scary.
Lexcie
Try canton (MA) its a lot better than Framingham.
A Final End-of-Summer blowout trip to Far Rockaway and Long Beach via the A Train to Far Rockaway/Mott Avenue will be held this Friday.
Meeting Location: Jay Street Station, S/B A Train platform, head-end.
Time: 6:00 pm.
Intinerary: We will wait till 6:15 pm (for any stragglers) then board the first railfan friendly train that is designated for FAR ROCKAWAY. If we have to wait more than 10 minutes and no R-32 or 38 trains come by, we will board whatever car class of train that is routed for Mott Ave/Far Rock.
By time we reach the end of the line there should be a 7:20 Long Beach bus -- N33 -- waiting to head eastward through Atlantic Beach and terminating adjacent to the Long Beach station of the LIRR. The scenery gets more suburban the further east we travel. You will notice this as the bus makes its way to the terminal.
Once in Long Beach, the group will then take a short walk to the Tourqoise Bar & Grille, a nice on-the-boardwalk establishment with live music acts. You can have light refreshments, or go all-out and order dinner as I'm sure some of us might be hungry after a long day.
Since this is a Friday evening, there isn't the usual pressure to leave early due to work commitments (at least for most of us).
Hope to see some of you there.
If you have specific questions, feel free to email me.
BMTman
And hopefully you won't be wearing speedos this time!
Oh dear, a Cooper Union Comedian....;-)
Well yeah sounds like fun, I had a great time the first time. I wonder when I'll ever see the pictures. :-)
Well maybe I'll tag along this time but I may have to leave earlier, I want to take the N21 home and the last one out of Flushing is 9:50pm.
Hopefully the weather will cooperate.
Doug's photos & my writeup of the First Section trip are in Daves hands.
Mr t__:^)
Better send again, I haven't received them.
Does anyone know anything about New Jersey Transit #5246, a snow sweeper on the Newark subway? In my files I have it listed as a 1921 double-truck Russell-built sweeper, built as Trenton & Mercer County #31, then Third Avenue Railway System #82, then Toronto Transportation Commission #S39, then NJT #5246. This piece of equipment is listed on the Newark roster on this website, however there is little information and no photos. Does anyone know what this thing looks like, or if its still in service or just stored? Does NJT have any plans for this very historic piece of equipment?
The sweeper was mentioned in an Oct 18, 2000 article in the New York Times about the Newark Subway/Cedar Street Subway. The reporter mentions that it is stored in a small portion of the Cedar Street Subway tunnel that is still connected to the main line. The article was reproduced here.
I found a picture of it on this web page: here. It's image 039093, in the middle of the 2nd to last row. Not a very good image since that site is just trying to sell you CDROMs of photos.
Thursday we saw two of the 4 MOW cars out, 1st was the flat with a cab added, 2nd not sure which one it was ... was in a pocket off the inbound line.
I would guess that they'll dispose of them now. The flat car would seem like a nice item for a museum ... could put benches on it. Folks seem to like riding in a gondola or such cars. You wouldn't have to keep brushing away the cinders in this version :-)
Mr t
Do you think that NJT might get rid of their work equipment? If so, I really hope it ends up in a serious museum. They've got some really historic stuff! The sweeper that I had mentioned is one of only a few Russell sweepers in existence, it's the ONLY piece of equipment surviving from the Trenton & Mercer County (NJ interurban line equipment is extremely rare in general), and it's the only Third Avenue Railway sweeper to survive in good shape. The 5223 - I guess this is the flat car you're talking about - seems like an extremely interesting piece of equipment. Juding from photos, it doesn't seem like a flat car with a cab placed on it, but rather a standard Public Service (?) streetcar that was rebuilt into a work motor. I'd love to know what its original passenger-car identity was, although that information might be lost to history. One way or another, this stuff had better be saved!!
In addition to sweeper 5246 and flat work motor 5223 (which was indeed cut down from an original Public Service streetcar), the Newark City Subway roster includes line car 5221, which was originally a Public Service Fast Line electric locomotive, and a heavy double-ended motorized plow, which has languished underground for decades because it couldn't clear the fence at Franklin Ave. (Branch Brook Park) loop.
Work car 5223 had beeen used many years for refuse collection, making a round trip out of Penn Station Thursday mornings with a stop at each station to pick up trash. The sweeper only ventured out during serious storms, when the snow accumulated too rapidly for passing PCCs to blow it away.
I don't know whether NJT intendes to retain any of these historical vehicles but I trust they will each find a good home when they're finally retired. The 5221 is especially significant because I believe it's the sole survivor from the Newark-Trenton Fast Line, one of New Jersey's very few interurban lines.
Wow! I'd never even heard of #5221, and by your description you've certainly got my attention. What kind of electric locomotive is/was this thing? If it was made into a line car, then I'm guessing it was some sort of homebuilt box motor rather than a steeplecab. Do you know of any photos of it in existence, and whether it's still in use?
As for that plow, is there any chance of it getting out of the subway?
Newark work car 5221 is a pretty traditional looking trolley line car - boxy body with two four-wheel trucks. I don't believe this has been used much in the past couple of decades and thus hibernates underground. I got to see it for the 50th anniversary of the line in 1985 when NJT trotted it out to Franklin Avenue and parked it on the now-removed stub track in the center of the loop.
There are a few other TARS/Toronto sweepers out there. Shoreline has one (TTC S-36) as well as another single truck sweeper from TARS/Yonkers RR. Seashore in Maine and Halton County Radial Railway in Canada both have a Toronto/TARS sweeper. I am not in any way suggesting that the NJT sweeper or other work eqpt should not be saved. Just that there are a few other out there. Enjoy
Steve Loitsch
You're absolutely right. Looking back at my notes, there are a couple of other TARS sweepers still around. I had TARS #59, at Branford, in mind when I mentioned this; when I was there last year, #59 was rumored to be out on their RIP track. It was rumored because everything on that track was so overgrown with weeds that no one could get back there or see what was there!
Anyway, Toronto #S-36 at Shore Line is actually not from TARS. #S-36 is former Eastern Massachusetts Street Railway #P-607. However, Eastern Massachusetts Street Railway #P-601 (later Toronto #S-31) at Seashore, which is a neat big double-truck sweeper, is former TARS #86 - and is in very good shape. Finally, Toronto #S-37 at the Halton County Radial Railway near Toronto is former EMSR #P-608 and former TARS #90. This unit is also operational, although of course it is of different gauge than when it was on TARS.
My notes indicate S36 was built in 1920 for Eastern Mass as 607,
sold in 1935 to Third Avenue and numbered 89, then sold in 1948
to Toronto.
Yonkers sweeper 59 is pretty shot, which is a shame because
I think it is the only surviving Mcquire-Cummings sweeper.
Actually there are quite a few surviving McGuire-Cummings snow sweepers. They were kind of the street railway industry standard. We have one at IRM from the Chicago Surface Lines, but it doesn't run because of the street-profile wheels. (Let's hope I know more about wheels than traction motors!!)
8-)
Oh, I stand correct re Mcquire. IRM puts railroad wheels
on the streetcars that operate in service, right?
"IRM puts railroad wheels on the streetcars that operate in service, right?"
Correct. We've only done this to a few cars over the years: CSL "Old Pullman" #144, CSL "Matchbox" #1374, CSL #3142, and CTA "Green Hornet" PCC #4391. I think that we completely replaced the trucks on the 4391, using spares from Shaker Heights. Milwaukee streetcar #354 has compromise wheels - halfway between street and normal wheels - and as such never had them replaced; however, we've had plenty of trouble in the past with this car derailing on switches. It's part of the reason we don't run it much.
Does Branford have normal railroad-type trackwork, or street railway trackwork? I had thought that Seashore had street railway trackwork, but I wasn't sure.
In 1999 they had four service cars:
- 5221 = Box Motor (Russell 1912)
- 5223 = Flat with cab form cut down Public Service trolley (1917)
- 5245 = Snow Plow (Public Service 1921)
- 5246 = Sweeper (Russell 1921)
Mr t__:^)
As apart of my campaign for MTA president on the Straphangers Campaign Site (Fake, Just for fun) I must come up with a plan that is both economical and does the max. amound of work. So I came up with a summary of a plan and what I need you to do is simple Find every flaw! If possible give any opinions that will help me create a sharp, smart plan
~ Create a GPS system that will let people know how long until their train/ busses arrives, and if there is a diversion/ accidebt the timer system can relay information in real time of detours. This will help also because the hearing impared can see the timing and see the diversions.
~ Continue Cleaning up and rehabing station so that in time, all stations will be fixed and a "good state of repair"
~ Bus Line Extensions to subway stations so that safer connections can be made.
~ Campaign to make the public fully aware of the Request-A-Stop night service so that it can make a nightly trip safer.
~ Provide Cleaner Busses and trains.
~ Line extensions to places that need subway access
~ Study, and asking of State, City, Federal Funds for a 4 track Second Avenue Line.
~ Look into Reviving the North Shore Line in Staten Island and upgrade signalling, trippers etc. so that subway cars may be purchased for the S.I.R.
So what do you think so far? Crap? B/S? Just Sucks? Good? Great? or Get Real?
Tell me what you think and give the opinions
>>~ Create a GPS system that will let people know how long until their train/ busses arrives, and if there is a diversion/ accidebt the timer system can relay information in real time of detours. This will help also because the hearing impared can see the timing and see the diversions.<<
Actually, GPS really won't work in manhattan. It could easily be done on the subway though.
>>~ Campaign to make the public fully aware of the Request-A-Stop night service so that it can make a nightly trip safer.<<
That's an excellent idea! Good job!
Your plan is good, but some parts of it are just too vague: line extensions, cleaner buses/trains and bus extensions. Otherwise, it's a good plan.
Well my extensions are the following:
~ L line to 12 Avenue
~ 7 line to Javits Center and/or use the Highline to get to the World Trade Center
~ F line to Spring Field Boulevard
~ 2/5 lines to Kings County Plaza (Mall)
~ 3 line to Cross Bay Boulevard
Good??
Your plan is good. I like your ideas for give live back into North Shore and extending a Subway line to Javits because it is a good walk from 8th Avenue. Extending the lines to the Hudson is good. Do you have any plans for an LGA Route?
I remember the GPS plan for buses a few years ago, it has never developed.
Overall, your ideas are good.
-Vekter
Those are good extensions but it will cost as much as the 2 ave subway for the 7 to run on the High line(info from oldnyc.com)
Good, but it really depends on Ridership Demand, Budget, and most of all, TIME, WORKERS, and EQUIPMENT.
IF the city were to make ELEVATED extensions, they would cause a problem with the city citizens. Note that some elevated extensions are not possible because of tall buildings blocking the way.
Time: By the time your suggestions might be finished, when could it be?
Workers: MTA must get a set supply of workers to build the extensions. Also, salaries for these workers also come from the Capital Fund Budget.
Equipment: Factories and companies must produce enough supplies for the equipment needed for extensions. Time will need to be invested for shipment for these equipments.
Ridership Demand: NYCT cannot start a project with no "booms" as for those citizens who want Subway Service in certain areas.
Budget: MTA will need to get its budget mainly from fares and other companies and subsidiaries to support the T/A with money.
Good ideas.
Railfan Pete.
~ L line to 12 Avenue
12th Avenue ends on 23rd Street, how would get around that?
~ 7 line to Javits Center and/or use the Highline to get to the World Trade Center
The High Line ends at the Gansevoort Market, even if you restore the ROW north of there. South of there it has been built upon, but even if you managed to reclaim the land and rebuild the structure, that only gets you to Canal Street.
~ F line to Spring Field Boulevard
Why stop there? I'd extend it to Belmont Park.
And it's one word: Springfield.
I wonder if it intersects with Evergreen Terrace, or Fake Street.
~ 2/5 lines to Kings County Plaza (Mall)
No County. Kings County has been a paper county for 105 years.
And what would you do about the cost of building a subway in the soft, marshy ground of southern Long Island?
~ 3 line to Cross Bay Boulevard
What a waste. It duplicates the A.
If you want to do something useful with the 3, extend it down to Spring Creek and Starrett City as the MTA planned in 1968.
Just a correction on GPS, it really doesn't work underground at all. GPS is a "constellation" of many satellites in low earth orbit which put out precisely phased signals based on an atomic clock. By triangulation of three or more satellite signals, you can determine where you are. These operate above 1 gigahertz in frequency and if you've tried to pull in your favorite FM or TV station underground, well ... you (don't) get the picture.
Alternative methods could be tried of course, but GPS won't work underground.
"Alternative methods could be tried of course, but GPS won't work underground."
Unless underground antennas/high freqency cables are hung from the hundreds of miles of tunnels in the city (like they are trying to do now with cell phones.)
Still won't work ... here's the deal - GPS consists of dozens of satellites twirling around the planet in low earth orbit. Each one of them transmits a precisely-phased signal based on an atomic timeclock reference. It is by the POSITION of the satellite and triangulating their positions that you are able to derive a "location" ... in fact, in the decoding, three position references are achieved - one is ridiculously too high above the earth, the other is ridiculously too deep beneath the earth which allows you to determine the correct number. Without DIRECT access to those bird in the sky, you cannot derive a position. There's nothing that can be repeated underground, that's the problem. It's a completely different situation from communications signals which can be piped through leaky coax underground. Sorry, the ground absorbs the signals.
You can use a GPS compatible system to figure out the location within the tunnel. Outdoors the regular GPS system would be used.
You forgot to mention how a fourth sattelite can be used to determine altitude.
simple solution guys. The train itself doesn't need to know exactly where on earth it is, and people waiting for it don't need this information either; hence GPS is a useless solution for the subway. The people waiting on the platform just want to know how many stops away it is, and they could just use the same technology they do in towers to keep track of that and set it to display on a user-friendly board in the station.
I can see it now ... tower model boards on JUMBOTRONs at major stations interspersed with ads for the Gap ... methinks we're onto something here and Madison Ave would approve.
Sorry about that - didn't think it significant to the "you can't read them in the tunnel" ... I like to leave things out to offer others the ability to detail it ... one of my ways of being neighborly and not try to hog a convo ... but yes, that's absolutely correct although you can get close with only three, four makes it a lot more certain. Similarly you can get a relatively close fix if you can only spot two.
Back when GPS was first made available to the public, the constellation wasn't quite "done" ... there's also "localizer" or "correction" broadcasts since GPS was designed with a built-in "wander" in the phase of the signals to make it less useful to "enemies" ... fascinating stuff if anyone's interested and wants to hit search sites looking for more. But my only purpose here was to indicate that any fancy GPS receiver will give you an error in the tunnels and therefore isn't terribly useful for locating trains. Hell, even with model boards, some folks have problems figuring out where the trains are. :)
Or... in layman's terms, you need a direct line of sight to three or more satellites for it to work. Or, in layman's layman, underground no work.
Dat's pretty much the score. You can get by with a few leaves in the way, but reinforced cement and steel underground kinda ruins it. The rule is pretty much "if you can get DirecTV there, then you can get the milbords" ...
Hey... These are Railroad lines, not cars or trucks. Railway tracks have all kinds of sensors that can transmit all kinds of data.
Heck, we have digital controls in HO scale, 1:1 will have no problem with them. Could even put an EZpass in each window, and sensors at each station. Not only will that tell you where and what the train is. but will line up the tracks as well.
Elias
You forgot the club car with hot and cold running beer. :)
Hot Beer?
EWWWWWWWWW!
I mean
EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Heh. Sometimes you just need to check if this thing's on. :)
I'd NEVER consider drinking American ... ummm ... "beer" ... warm, but there are many imports that are best served at room temp and certain Porters and stouts are actually best a bit warm. I figured for a city as "international" as New York, all sorts of options should be available on the square-D bar car. Heh.
Forget beer, we need some hard liquor (especially if you read this board for long periods of time :-)). Maybe we can hook up an 11th car that hangs beyond the platform and the only way to get in is through the bouncer at the end door. Each line could have a diffrent style of club: techno/jungle, latin, dance. The possiblities are endless.
I *like* it ... and of COURSE we'd expect a full stocked BAR CAR with top shelf, unknown refill bottles and a full compliment of wussy drinks too. I do like the end door idea for the obnoxious. Back in the days of the NHRR, the NYCentral and other predecessors to the MTA, the bar car was an OBLIGATORY part of the ride. And on the longer runs, there was a REAL BAR ... on shorter runs, we'd have to settle for the steamer trunk version but you could FALL off the train good and proper when you got to your destination once upon a time. :)
And on the longer runs, there was a REAL BAR ... on shorter runs, we'd have to settle for the steamer trunk version but you could FALL off the train good and proper when you got to your destination once upon a time. :)
Really? How long are the train runs you're talking about?
Heck, most LIRR trains used to have a bar car on the evening runs.
On the M1s this consisted of a cart in one of the doorways.
Do they still do that?
Elias
Last time I went on an LIRR train to Port Washington, they DID have it. (That was 3 years ago in July.)
On anything going more than 50 miles to the terminus (such as Poughkeepsie, New Haven, Boston or DC) back in those days, there was usually a "bar car" on the train along with a restaurant car with sit down meals with real plates, REAL meat and soup. For the commuter runs, it was usually the steamer trunk and the guy would keep the bar open for a few stops up the line, close up the trunk and head back on another southbound to do it again. All depended on where it was going as to how serious it was. And the steamer trunk barkeeps would be peddling likker on the platform before it left too. You'd grab a cup, toy bottle (like on airlines), ice, chips, you name it and go grab a seat.
I was very surprised with the MTA's Capital Program too.
I'll copy and paste this section which is intriguing:
Signals on the BMT lines are in a state-of-good-repair and the IRT portion of the signal system will reach that status in 2004. State-of-good-repair for IND signals is forecast for 2021 as NYC Transit implements Communications-Based Train Control (CBTC) technology, now being tested on the Canarsie line. Advanced signal technology will be installed on the IRT and BMT lines through normal replacement investments in future capital programs. Yard signal improvements will be coordinated with mainline signal investments to bring them to a state-of-good-repair by 2019.
Ongoing studies of NYC Transit’s ventilation system are helping the agency to examine and prioritize vent plant construction and to refine its long-term investment strategy. State-of-good-repair for this system is currently forecast for 2020. The pace of tunnel lighting investments that can be attained depends on competing demands for track access; state-of-good-repair is now forecast for 2016.
Don't you think most railfans here will be senior citizens by then? When I grow up, I'll be used to the Subway.
Railfan Pete.
The problem with the MTAs predictions is that they don't allow for any fluctuations in the economy, especially downturns. Who knows, 2016 may be the time frame in which they think they will get the tunnel lighting systems fully upgraded, but any slash in the budgets from now until then can cause the date to be pushed back to 2020. And that's assuming there will be no disaster bet. now and then.
Hello to All,
After a great summer in both northern and southern California, I returned to the east coast on sunday. Unfortunately I did not get the chance to do much railfanning, but I did see Breda's Muni Cars, the BART, and cable cars in action when i got the rare chance to be in the San Francisco and Oakland areas.
I can see that a lot has been going on in NYC since I've been gone: The "W" line began, redbirds are in the ocean, R143 testing is going on, and some r62a's are in the corona barn. Also, I've noticed Dave has made some upgrades to this site...thank you as always for your hard work!
I'll be in Connecticut for about 10 days so hopefully I'll be in NYC to do some railfanning this week, and then its off to the south shore of Boston to begin my Senior Year in college.
It's great to be back....I'll look foward to the wonderful transit discussions with all subtalkers!!
Peace,
Nick
"I'll be in Connecticut for about 10 days so hopefully I'll be in NYC to do some railfanning this week"
Don't bother going to the Newark City Subway. All the PCCs have disappeared !!
Bill "Nekwirk"
Nope, had not not planned on doing that. My college is down the street from Mattapan so I have my fun on the PCC's over there :-)
I'll probably ride the W line, ride the R142s (maybe on the #5?), go R-143 watching on the N line,and then maybe head to west 45th street to pick up the 2002 calendar! -Nick
Why?
Some of us might actually enjoy the subway, regardless of equipment.
I would enjoy the LRVs. Not as much as the PCCs though.
Just kidding !
Bill "Newkirk"
It's too bad you were, the LRVs SUCK!
Maybe it's just that they're going through teething pains, but now I know how the Redbird fans feel.
Hey Bill, drop a line to N Broadway Line and tell him who numero uno Sea Beach man is. I think the guy has temporarily lost his marbles.
wish U could have dipped down here ot so' cal' too see some of this stuff a down here !! .......lol !!!
all northern cali.?? ( lol !! )
salaam,
I did think about you when I was down there. I was in northern California for ten weeks, and then down south for two weeks in the desert (but unfortunately still far from L.A. or I would have gladly met up with you). -Nick
While viewing some of Joe Testagrose's great pictures of Toronto Heavy Rail, I noticed (as well as when I was there examining the trackbed) the Third rail chairs and covers are a (what appears to be) a duplicate of those used on NYC B Division lines, with the exception of the newer non-wood type cover installed on some parts of the B Division.
Can anyone confirm this?
Third rail from the 50's onward are pretty much the same. Ohio Brass is one of the main vendor in offering parts to NYCTA, MBTA, SEPTA, and TTC.
Would it be a safe bet to say that B Division MU's can operate over Toronto trackage and vice versa?
The cars would have to be regauged first.
Regauged for pick up shoe height or the actual MU car height?
I mean so that the trains can make it on the running rails.
It would be a very unsafe bet, unless the cars are regauged to 4 ft. 10 7/8 in. from standard guage. There may also be some other clearance problems due to the specifications for turns, overhang etc. but I don't know for sure if that actually would be a problem if you were to reguage B division trains to operate on the TTC's subways. Conversely, if TTC subway cars were reguaged they probably wouldn't fit in New York subways because they are 75 feet long, making any clearance problem more acute. On the other hand, a reguaged 57 foot long Gloucster would probably fit reasonably well.
-Robert King
The TTC is 4' 10 7/8", and the NYC is 4' 8 1/2", standard gauge, so there is a problem right there.
With the exception of the Eastern Division, NYC B Division ROWs can handle 75' MU's. (R44, 46, 68, 68A).
Regarding gauge, that's exactly what I said: unless TTC cars are regauged to standard gauge before running on the BMT, they simply won't fit on the tracks and New York cars need to be regauged from standard gauge to TTC gauge before running in Toronto otherwise they will fall off the track and land between the running rails.
-Robert King
During rush hours, Flushing-bound local & express trains may have to wait outside the portal for a track at Main St to clear. This will not affect as many people during the AM rush as opposed to the PM rush. And add to that, Mets games at Shea and now the US Open, MTA is INCREASING service on the line because of the overcrowding. The result is more congestion around the Main St portal for each train to clear. MTA is smart enough however (for a change) to terminate some local trains at Shea today and have the rest of the Main St bound passengers board the next (usually the exp) train. This alleviates some congestion around the portal and at the same time returns a train to Manhattan more efficiently.
I like this idea so much for the PM rush, that I would like it to be permanent, not just during US Open season and (important)Mets games. Every local train terminates at Shea while the express proceeds to Main. The reason is I usually take the express to Main, and for a reason when both the express and local reaches the portal at the same time and just one track is available, the local train usually gets the green light. When I look inside those local trains there aren't as many people as on the express. Given the sucky A/C and the usually rude behaviors of passengers always fighting for a damn seat so I'm usually standing, I would like the express to get into the station faster.
Again, this is just for the PM rush.
I think that would be a good idea! This past month I took the 7 train to Flushing and both times we had to wait outside the Main St portal for a track to open up. Yes, terminate the locals at Shea and run the expresses to Flushing weekdays. But if you do it during PM hours, you gotta do it during AM hours too, except trains would be originating at Shea (locals) or Flushing (expresses).
Yes I do favor "short runs". The congestion Flushing bound in the AM is also suprising, at 9:30am or so I see trains backed up on the E/B local track, sometimes all the way back to 74th.
I see some trains at that time terminate at 111st Corona, I guess they go OOS and to the yard. They should have more of these short runs.
Though if all locals terminate at Willets some people will make a stink about it, so to "even" the balance have 50% of the trains terminate at Willets, or 111st. Perhaps 111st would be a better place to terminate, but C/R's should make sure to announce that at Junction. Or Junction could be the last stop. 7 local trains empty out quite a bit at Junction anyways.
It makes alot of sense. If you're going to Main Street, you'd want to take the Express.
And yes, the Locals do clear out by Junction.
There is still a good crowd who gets off at 111st St. If not 111th, then I still feel Shea would be a better place to terminate to drop off those sports fans and whoever's left that wants to go further into Main.
Heck, let those people go stink about it! At least they are sitting down with plenty of elbow room and usually given priority to enter Main! I'm usually standing and carrying my 20 lbs. baggage almost everyday despite getting on & off at both ends of #7 terminals. And I rather not take a local all the way from Manhattan just so to get a seat. Even with that, a seat will usually not be available until near Junction anyways as you're mentioning.
I didn't include AM rush because Main St needs the trains. It's hard to get a seat from Main St as it is! Even ample standing room is not as easy to come by since people tend to stand by the doorways and not move in, forcing me to "elbow" or "excuse you" my way in.
Aren't there always locals that terminate at Willets Pt Blvd in the PM (and begin there in the AM)? I seem to recall this even before the baseball season started. The Shea parking lot is also a fairly major park and ride location.
It will be nice to have the locals terminate at Shea on a more regular basis (if not so already) during those heavy PM crunch hours.
I say it is much easier to turn the locals at 111 with the extra tracks. Now you're going to complain about loss of direct Main-111 and 103 service. Well, let's look at AM, anybody coming from an East Queens bus into Flushing would hop an express, so would those at Shea, who wants to get to 111 or 103 from Main anyway? So if you're headed from Main to a 7 lcl stop past Junction just change at Junction. I know plenty of people that do that today anyway. Now, PM, people are headed home or to the game, consider the majority of these people start in Manhattan. Here's my plan: 2 expresses before a local. That's right. Anybody coming from work in Manhattan would always take an exp to get to the game, especially if their late, the locals seem to get in the way for them. Now then if you're going from Queens Blvd and have to get to the 7 by means of the Roosevelt transfer. True, you'll have less locals and they'll only end at 111, but you can transfer at Junction for an express which will be running more often. I know it'll get crowded. That's why they should run two of them in a row. Now, even if the Mets aren't playing, this should be followed anyway. Get people to Main faster. The 7 runs often enough, every 2 minutes I believe. So what, if people from Manhattan are headed for a local stop, maximum wait is 6 minutes? The train also would most likely be less crowded. I also say they should run 2 exp before a lcl in AM too, what do you think?
The congestion going into Main Street terminal PM rush hours is nothing new; it's been going on as long as I've been commuting on it- which is to say over twenty years. We've been left hanging over the Van Wyck (and Flushing Creek at low tide!) for intervals of ten minutes or more, waiting for the congestion to clear.
Yes, some locals do terminate at Willets, which isn't too much of an inconvenience because there's usually an express sitting right across the platform due to above congestion. Having locals end at 111th would sever that connection. A lot of people still ride from 74th through to Main. With the tremendous population increase continuing to affect Queens and more and more people working in Flushing, outbound local platforms are becoming more and more crowded both AM AND PM rush hours.
For many years there were at least two Manhattan-bound locals coming out of the yard to start at 111th around 7:30 in the morning. I don't know if that's still the case.
The prevailing law of portal entrance is no matter which train you're on, at least three other trains must go into the terminal before it.
And you think i'm kidding?
http://www.tagmag.com/chat/grind/g.mayhem.idx710.txt.html
Someone even posted a link to some of the photos on this site.
A'right seven, fess up! hehe!!! (I doubt it was you, but... who?)
graffiti artists: railfans in their own strange way. hhehhehhe!
What a bunch! One's funnier than the next. As for the pictures...
I like the guy who's so fired up he wants to go down to Davy Jones' locker and tag the 'Birds. Anyway, #9487 will go down wearing somebody's monicker, so it seems. Lots of Phun for these guys.
wayne
that message board is pretty funny at times, and a good place to brush up on ones ebonics. hehe!
Hmmm.
To quote (I think, but please correct me if I am wrong) Train Dude: “I think it’s English, but I can’t understand what they’re saying.”
Nonetheless, I did interpret the intent of one of the posters to visit the Redbirds in their new, watery home and decorate them. Interestingly enough, no mention was made of how this was to be accomplished: 80' =~ 3.5 Atmospheres. Aerosol sprays don’t work very well under such pressures.
John
Betcha a wide carter marker will do the trick. :)
haha thats my man, he knows the geAR, if the Motherfluxing MTA at least stored them at da Bush, I could have done sumthin real nice, maybe in honor of subfart, but noo, aww hell, we'll see what they'll say after the 142s will see the likes of MY Krylon, Im one Hungry Ass Motherf***er <-- and that ain't proper.
Howdy guy ... I know how to hotwire a car and remove a "da CLUB" from a steering wheel. Of course, I wouldn't do it. But I do love a challenge when someone thinks a can of krylon is the only method of submersible tagging.
That obligatory bit said, I can see it killing 15 minutes worth of NBC Dateline airtime though "no subway car is safe from taggers, even off the coast of Delaware, our exclusive Dateline camera (the only one we have) has caught evidence of recent grafitti attacks on the redbirds ... and you KNOW they'd run with a story like that since we've all had more than our fill of Gary Condit who has had way past his 15 minutes of fame ...
What PR that would make though, the stripped redbirds, down 90 feet with fresh 'fiti on them. Whatta country! :)
You have approximately two months to complete your mission. After that, you will have to scrape off the mussels and silt.
John
Heh. Maybe if we tag them with butter and garlic. That oughta scare away those miserable little bivalve gangs with their secret cillia shakes and pseudopods ... I'm sure some crazy-assed fan will find a way to create a "photo-op" ... after all, Andy Warhol's misson of EVERYBODY getting 15 minutes of fame is yet to be fulfilled.
Let's not and pretend that we did dept. :
get me shots of them cars submerged, and i'll slap some graff on them via photoshop. then we can send the photos out to the press. i bet people in other countries would eat it - like they did with that photo a week or 2 ago of that guy holding the huge cat.
i bet people in other countries would eat it - like they did with that photo a week or 2 ago of that guy holding the huge cat.
As PT Barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute". That wasn't even a good merge job, you could still see part of the tail from the dog the fellow was holding in the original picture. It's gone now, but there was a website out there for a few days back around May or June that showed the original picture with the dog before the cat was pasted in.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Goodness. This past Sunday I rode an R36 #9533 from 40 St. to 42nd St. Times Square. I've noticed in the wall area between the storm door and the first set of doors on the left and right side (adjacent to the cab's seat) some CLEANED GRAFFITI. The dark outlines were STILL REMAINING.
Hmm.
Railfan Pete.
Kap7 hit those panels straight with a two letter throw-up, sweet 7 annoying graffito-tagging ooo how I will miss it, Hey Joe I got sum outlines ready to go for our trip.
I see that Breda's cars are having derailment troubles once again. Any ideas how long the latest "investigation" will take? Also, I noticed that before the derailments, a lot have cars had been accepted into service (according to Jon Belcher's page on the NE site), and were all being used on the "B" line. Was there a time this summer when it was very common to see a type 8 on this line, just like the R142a is very common on the #6, or did u still have to pass many type 7s? -Nick
With 17 cars accepted/available for service, there were at a maximum seven two-car trains of Type-8s, plus two each of the Type-8/7 pairs (Type-8 paired with 3622 and 3682 modified Type-7s), plus one spare.
Since B/Boston College has a rush-hour requirement of 22 trains, that's at best 9 out of 22. My observations is that they were not that frequent, so it's likely not all were in service at any one time.
Off-peak hours require fewer cars, of course, but again -- my observation was about 1 in 3 or 1 in 4.
No one I've talked to has a handle on how long they'll be out this time.
p.s. Glad to have you back east, and I look forward to seeing you on your return to Boston.
Thanks for all the info, Todd!
"p.s. Glad to have you back east, and I look forward to seeing you on your return to Boston."
I'll look foward to seeing you too...wish i could be there to ride the tremont st. subway on 9/1! -Nick
I rode the Green Line on Sunday 8/19 from Lechmere to Kenmore, and back, and did not see a single Type 8 in service that day. Perhaps they were restricting these cars from weekend service.
Jim D.
Nope, all type 8s are suspended from service due to more derailoments this summer. -Nick
The type-8s went out-of-service from the derailments on 8/20.
When is the T going to throw in the towel and kill the Breada contract? I'm sure the penalty clause will not apply, as the vendor has failed in their performance. How much money has the T spent already in trying to get Breda's trash to work already?
I am so happy to report that i have begun college @ New York City Technical today. I have taken up Electrical Engineering. From that classroom i can see the Manhattan bridge and Q and W trains crossing it! I can even see the north and south sides. Wow the North side needs work! Not to mention what i like about College unlike high school they do not require me to be in the building the whole time. I got a break from 1230 to 200pm. I took this time to take the N to 18av get some quick R143 photos and catch a northbound N right back to court street.
E JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
When I went back to get my Nursing degree, I had some spare time on my hands, and since I did not need any history credits, I audited a course on Russian History. This was with a very top-rated professor who knew his subject and taught it with a passion.
It was wonderful to sit there and listen to him speak, and not have to take any notes, write any papers, or take any tests. I highly recommend auditing a course if you have time to kill.
Elias
Congratulations, on your first day. College is easier than high school. Sure its more work but less hours. I just graduated this year from TCI with a degree in Computer Networking and Programming.
Earlier today I was thinking of possible carassignments and after trial and error i came up with this-
Line----Car----yard--------# of trains
A/ROC-S-R46----Pitkin/207--40
B-------R46----207---------10
C/63-S--R46----Pitkin------22
D-------R38----CONC--------9
D-------R46----207---------4
E-------R40S---JAMAICA-----22
F-------R32----CI/Jamaica--50
G-------R40S---Jamaica-----12
J/Z-----R40M/2-ENY---------19
L-------R42----ENY---------21
M-------R38----ENY---------6
M-------R40M/2-ENY---------12
N-------R68----CI----------20
QX------R68A---CI----------14
Q-------R68----CI----------17
R-------R46----Jamaica-----27
FS------R46A-A-Pitkin------2
W-------R44----CI----------21
I know that there are some missing cars in this, so if somebody sees a mistake in this pleese respond
Just in case you are getting the R-110B's back that is 1 train of 9 cars, and when the entire R-143 fleet of 212 cars to that mix also. The R-38 is better on the A and I like the 46's on the D. If you remember, the D and the F had those R-44 cars on those 2 lines in the 70's, and some 46's were mixtures with the 68's on the D until the line used R-68's and the R-68A's in the late 80's. I am sure that when the Manny Bridge reopens to 6th Ave. service, that could happen. Don't forget about the V line as well. R-40's should go the the N or W though.
If the "FS" is the Franklin Shuttle, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get the trains from Pitkin Yard to the shuttle tracks because there is no connection to them from the Fulton St. Line--that assignment should goto Coney Island--ALSO because R-46's are 4 car sets, they wouldn't fit into the extremely short platforms--keep the R-68's there.
I was thinking of the R46 A-A units instead of the A-B-B-A units.
Here's the story, with the same basic photos everyone ran last week, plus a close-up of the front of 7785. I would have liked to have heard the BBC's newreader's tones if and when he mentioned the headline of the article -- the BBC usually doesn't do Brooklynese very well. :-)
Type 1000 times: “I will always use ‘Messaage Preview’ when I include HTML references in my posting!”
Seriously, I have been saved from many an error, especially when including long URLs. If it shows purple (my visited link color), then it’s almost 100% likely it’s correct.
BTW: the BBC’s correspondent was Jane Standley. I would hazard that in this case, he’s a she!
John
Here's the story, with the same basic photos everyone ran last week, plus a close-up of the front of 7785. I would have liked to have heard the BBC's newreader's tones if and when he mentioned the headline of the article -- the BBC usually doesn't do Brooklynese very well. :-)
Subway cars sleep with the fishes
I found it very interesting that the BBC in the "Internet links" portion on that page they list New York City Subway and the link is to (guess where) New York City Subway Resources (www.nycsubway.org)!!!!
Dave, now is that flattering or what? I think you might want to put right up near the masthead on the main page your disclaimer about the site not being connected with the MTA.
BTW - they call the MTA - the New York Metropolitan Transport Authority. Obviously the BBC people in NYC listen and read with a British accent as well.
Trains seemed to be running every 10 minutes middays, SRO on many of ém, and it took 15 minutes instead of the ususal 12 to go end to end. Also, I was unable to complete a round trip. I rode car 102 from NWK to BBP, stayed with the train and made it as far as Norfolk St when the ticket expired. I stayed on so I could get to an underground station to take advantage of the 45 cent fare, I'd have been very pissed off if I were forced to pay the extra dollar (I know before POP it would have been necessary anyway, but it's the principle of the thing).
They were handing out cardboard LRV bank things, which were damn near impossible to figure out how to fold correctly. I'll bet they did this not because it was the first day of the new trains, but because it would take so much time and concentration to figure out how to put together you wouldn't realize how long you've been waiting.
When they open the extension, will they increase the time a ticket is good for?
I just returned from Alaska early this morning (well it wasn't so early after an hour-and-a-half flight delay due to no-show thunderstorms, but that's a whole other . . . ugh)
But after catching a couple hours of snooze, I awoke around 4PM and went out to ride the new cars.
Apparently the new cars have a lot of kinks yet to be worked out. They were having a lot of problems and service was so screwed up, they were even running subway bus shuttles in addition to the regular rail service.
At Penn Station, the fare inspecters were handing out flyers explaining the problems.
Some great shots of yesterday’s trip! Too bad I had to teach and therefore missed the trip, especially as there was trackage that is not normally travelled over. (Memo to NYCTA: I will pay money to ride the Christie Street Connection)
However, I must take issue with the title “Redbird Reef Photos.” I see no reef. “Redbirds Farewell,” “Redbirds Drowning”–certainly–“Redbirds to the Reef”–possibly–but the reef-to-be is 80' below the photographs’ location.
When I get a chance to see the Redbirds in their new, ocean home, I will take some pictures, so you can see what an artificial reef looks like.
John
When I get a chance to see the Redbirds in their new, ocean home, I will take some pictures, so you can see what an artificial reef looks like.
Please do! We'd be delighted. I'm making the same suggestion to Peggy Bowen, with the hopes that she'll share the pics with us here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's how the relative speed of subway trains differ in contrast in the relative boroughs of the NYC area:
R44's on the 8th Av. EXP
R-38s on the 8th Av. EXP.
R32's and R38's on the C line
R32's and R46's on the Queens Blvd. E
R46-R Broadway Local Line
R46- F Culver Line
IRT #4 and #5 Lexington Av. EXP.
Some speeds differ in some areas than in others. I especially like the EXPRESS DASH from lower to upper Manhattan on the #4 line. It's the FASTEST train that travels lengthwise Manhattan in its area.
Historical trains I'll leave to the experts. I wasn't around during those times.
Notice carefully the first three scrolls. This may ring a bell.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I think you made the R Broadway Local Line is waaaaaaay too fast. If I ever get to school on time because of that train, I'll know hell has just frozen over.
Also, since the E and F share a long stretch of track, shouldn't they be paced about the same speed?
BTW, I agree about the Lexington Express, it's great in terms of speed thru manhattan.
The speed on Lexington is what got me to like the 4. As for you getting to schol on time? Couldn't you leave your house earlier? I also neer found an R-38 faster than an R44.
OK, then I'll make the R as slow as the Culver Lcl. F, but I'll leave the F as it is because some SubTalkers here have been sweating about how the F in Brooklyn doesn't get you anywhere.
Well.....
Railfan Pete.
I have never taken drugs but I somehow know what it may feel like after looking at your post. LOL!
Today I was working at the Willis Point Station on the No.7 Line with all the events going on the U.S Open and a home game at Shea. The Uptown No.7 Local trains now have to open up both sides at Willis PT. I got to play second Conductor by opening the doors on the C/R's off side and then close them then run off the train in time on the other Platform so the crew don't take me with them to Main Street which did happen.
Also Newsday reporter Ray Sanchez was there trying to do a story on the diffrance in the U.S Open and Mets subway riders. I couldn't really comment on that but we did have a brief talk. We talked mostly about the farther and son story in the post. He seem like a nice person.
Today I was working at the Willis Point Station on the No.7 Line with all the events going on the U.S Open and a home game
at Shea. The Uptown No.7 Local trains now have to open up both sides at Willis PT. I got to play second Conductor by
opening the doors on the C/R's off side and then close them then run off the train in time on the other Platform so the crew don't
take me with them to Main Street which did happen.
Also Newsday reporter Ray Sanchez was there trying to do a story on the diffrance in the U.S Open and Mets subway riders.
I couldn't really comment on that but we did have a brief talk. We talked mostly about the farther and son story in the post. He
seem like a nice person.
I don't care about correcting your spelling of correction, but I do have to correct the station name. The station is nowhere near Willet's Point, it should be called Flushing Meadows.
I agree. It made more sense when the station first opened as "Willets Point Boulevard" when the exit was at the intersection of Roosevelt Avenue, 126 Street, and Willets Point Boulevard (the main street through the junk yards). But then when the station was rebuilt as an express stop, the exit got moved west to its present location away from the intersection, and then over time the "Boulevard" got dropped from the name, so now "Willets Point" is completely inappropriate as the station name. Willets Point the geographical location is miles away at Fort Totten.
"Shea Stadium - Flushing Meadows Corona Park" should be the station name.
And the Blvd sections also have quite a gap in them...
-Hank
Hank, why aren't you on your honeymoon?
Yes, they do. Willets Point Boulevard begins life angling in a northeastly direction from Roosevelt Avenue & 126th Street about six blocks to Northern Boulevard just west of the Flushing River Bridge. It reappears a mile northeast at Union Street & 25th Road and runs in an east-northeasterly direction through the width of Whitestone to the Cross Island service road & Utopia Parkway.
The projected path between the two segments runs at kind of a curve through industrial northwest Flushing. Perhaps the two parts were meant to be connected but never were. The 1939 construction of the Whitestone Parkway (later Expressway), which covers a lot of what would have been the Boulevard's missing link may have something to do with it.
Willets Point is the official name of the extreme end of Fort Totten, but lately it's referred to as the 'Iron Triangle' area east of Shea- the morass of junkyards and auto repair shops.
The contrast between the two Willets Points- industrial in the west, pleasant connecting artery lined with row houses and garden apartments in the east- is quite stark.
Other famous interrupted streets include Ralph Avenue, Linden Boulevard, Parsons Boulevard and the bizarre Hollis Court Boulevard.
Hollis Court Boulevard.
The northern one is called Hollis Hills Terrace.
Originally, Hollis Court Boulevard ran in one long section from Utopia Parkway & 46th Avenue in Auburndale to Jamaica Avenue between 211th and 212th Streets in Queens Village.
Construction of the Clearview Expressway south of the L.I.E. in 1963 caused it to be broken into three pieces. The middle section running immediately east of the Clearview between 73rd and 86th Avenues was renamed Hollis Hills Terrace around 1980 at the request of local residents who were tired of their deliverymen getting lost.
However, both the northern section running from Utopia Parkway to the L.I.E./Francis Lewis intersection, and the southern section running from Hillside Avenue at the Clearview terminus to Jamaica Avenue, retained the Hollis Court Boulevard designation.
In response to another poster, the northernmost section of Richmond Avenue between Richmond Terrace and Forest Avenue was renamed Port Richmond Avenue some years ago for the dual purposes of identifying the community and for clarity. The Willowbrook Expressway cut right through the original Forest/Richmond intersection around 1964, causing N-S running Richmond Avenue to be combined with E-W Forest Avenue through the underpass. Now the two segments have separate names and identities.
as it happens, i live 2 blocks from the northern end of Hollis Court Blvd....the 1st interrupted section runs through Cunningham Park, with a WHOLE lot of other abandoned stuff. i went in there on a mountain bike a few years ago--it's pretty wild in the northern section of Cunningham, maybe in the winter things are easier to see--but i saw what i believe to be an open cut that the LIRR Central Branch ran in. maybe not, but there IS some kind of open cut running in the correct alignment. this northern section of the park contains 4 abandoned roads (Hollis Court, Underhill and Peck Avenues, and the original alignment of Horace Harding Blvd.), and the LIRR Central Branch, and the Vanderbilt Pkwy is directly across the street. i wonder if Kevin Walsh knows about this? :P
Yep. And there's a tiny section of Richmond Ave that's still parallel to Forest, running behind the businesses that face Forest. Port Richmond Ave was renamed in the mid-80s. I haven't seen a map of it yet, but it's clear that Richmond and Forest paralleled each other between the existing Richmond Ave and what is now Port Richmond Ave.
Speaking of interupted streets, look for Hawthorne Ave on Staten Island.
-Hank
Sorry, misremembery. Hawthorne St.
-Hank
Then there are the few streets, like Richmond Avenue at Forest Ave. in Staten Island, that make right and left turns while the street that goes straight ahead changes its name. Streets like that are always fun for a first--time driver in the area to deal with.
Pearl Street and St. James Place do that.
Other famous interrupted streets include Ralph Avenue, Linden Boulevard, Parsons Boulevard and the bizarre Hollis Court Boulevard.
Also (in Manhattan) 60th Street, 61st Street, 62nd Street, 63rd Street, ..., 107th Street, 108th Street, and 109th Street. (Oh, and 59th and 110th too.)
No, they're not. That's East 60th, then West 60th. East 61st, then West 61st.
I should have expected that from you.
That's actually not the case on West 60th Street, specifically.
Is 7th Avenue still an official avenue name north of Central Park? If so, there's another case. Same for 8th Avenue.
Avenue A and Avenue B used to exist up north, but they were renamed York Avenue (and Pleasant Avenue) and East End Avenue a long time ago.
There are a bunch of Marginal Streets. There are two 9th Avenues, 10th Avenues, and 12th Avenues.
There are two Broadways! Broadway is officially unmapped between 14th Street and 17th Street.
Is the northbound Henry Hudson Parkway between the George Washington Bridge and the Dyckman Street exit still officially Riverside Drive? If not, Riverside Drive is in two sections. Some of the other north-south streets are interrupted by the bridge approaches -- Cabrini and Haven come to mind. (Cabrini between 177th and 178th is a member of that rare breed of one-way divided streets. IINM, there is even parking along the median.)
(I'm restricting my attention to Manhattan, BTW, in case that wasn't obvious.)
Is 7th Avenue still an official avenue name north of Central Park? If so, there's another case. Same for 8th Avenue.
They are called Powell Boulevard and Douglass Boulevard.
Avenue A and Avenue B used to exist up north, but they were renamed York Avenue (and Pleasant Avenue) and East End Avenue a long time ago.
Did they change it at the time Peter Cooper Village and Stuyvesant Town were created?
Also, didn't Avenue A actually extend all the way up to about 49th street at one point, with just a few blocks seperating Avenue A and the next part of it? And once Avenue A changed to York Avenue up there, did they change the numbering of the buildings?
Ave. B ran to 21st St. and the FDR drive -- the loops in Stuyvesant Town on 20th St. mark the spots where Ave. A and Ave. B once were.
Ave. A ran up to about 27th St. originally, and a two block segment still remains between 23rd and 25th St. where the old NYC bathhouse (now swimming pool) is, called Asher Levy Place. Peter Cooper and Styuvesant Town block the old street to the south and the Bellvue Hospital nursing center is built over the street to the north.
Kips Bay and Turtle Bay brought the East River too close to First Ave. for the next 1 1/4 miles to have any through avenue east of First Ave. (which is why it's called First Ave. in the first place). When the river's shoreline begins pulling away from First Ave. north of the United Nations, then Sutton Place/York Ave. begins at 53rd St. where Ave. A would have been located, while Ave. B emerges again as East End Ave. between 79th and 90th Sts.
I would be, but things don't always go as planned, such as setting your wedding date and then changing jobs. This is a busy time of year for companies interested in having products available to the masses come xmas shopping season (and in our case, the arrival of WinXP)
-Hank
XPee ... heh. What a stinker, eh? Here's hoping the railroads do a VERY careful exam before upping their NTee boxes. I'd hate to be laid up all winter on track 2 ...
If you did want to correct the spelling, remember that "a lot" is two words.
:-) Andrew
Im glad you got off my train in time. But next time, hurry up!!!:):):)
>..second Conductor by opening the doors
>on the C/R's off side and then close them
>then run off the train in time...
Cant this be accomplished by merely standing
on the middle (off-side) platform and
simply reaching into the C/R booth and
hitting the key and open button?
(presuming the C/R booth window is open)
It's the only way to accomplish it.
Which is the only way?
Your way is my preferred method. Running on and off the train seems like a good way to ride to Main St.
You could do that but there was two reason I could not do that.
1. Its alittle danger in closing the doors from outside the train when you know its going to pull right off. Thats a good way to lose your keys.
2. All Platform Conductors are suppose to be on the platform facing the U.S Open to help the lost people comeing off the No.7 Train and help stop fare beating.
1. Its alittle danger in closing the doors from outside the train when you know its going to pull right off. Thats a good way to lose your keys.
How would it pose a danger? If the doors are open, how do you know the train is going to pull off? All of the doors must be closed first before the train moves. Please correct me if it need be.
There is nothing wrong with Conductors closing the doors from the outside. PATH train conductors do that all the time at JSQ. They close the doors from the outside, for the engineer to move the train into the JSQ yard. After the doors close, the conductor takes his key out, then there it goes, trundling out of JSQ.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The danger lies in the fact that after you turn the key to the RUN position, your arm is still in a train that's ready to go as soon as it gets indication, which YOU JUST GAVE HIM. If you're not fast in extracting your arm....
Guess you have to be quick...
But what about PATH trains? how do their RUN systems and signal indication work? Are they delayed?
Railfan Pete.
Don't know. But you said something about going in the yard from Journal Sq -are there passengers on board at the time? Do the trains get the line-up right away? (The last time I rode PATH was for the Statue of Liberty re-opening)
Here's how it works:
1) PATH from 33rd. St. which operates via HOBOKEN. (This diversion starts around 7-7:30PM, throughout late night hours).
2) PATH makes all stops to JSQ, which is the last stop. Conductor announces it "last stop, Journal Square. Newark train across the platform."
3) All passengers exit, including the conductor.
4) (PATH train door circuits disconnect between the 1st and 2nd cars. There are TWO buttons for closing doors, before the conductor turns his key to RUN. The second button closes the doors from the #2 to the eighth (last) car. The first button closes the doors in the first car only. )
Conductor opens his conductor window on the right side located inside the second car, presses the two buttons at one time, turns his key, takes his arm out, and slides the window closed.
NOTE: This procedure takes 5 seconds (from the key to RUN) while the train is stopped.
5) Train departs out of JSQ for placement in JSQ yard. Conductor is fine, he goes to his next post.
That's how it happens.
Any questions?
: )
Railfan Pete.
AS USUAL.... you have no clue
Peace,
ANDEE
What do you mean I have no clue? You can experience this by yourself at Journal Square. You'll see it exactly as I have written it.
: )
Railfan Pete.
http://trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/001/377rhoqm.asp
The most updated news as of current time, four news articles deal with railroading across North America, TWO of them involving AMTRAK.
I can see that AMTRAK is pulling up another problem around the corner every time.
: (
Railfan Pete.
A recent addition from Pelham has arivved and will run in passenger service during the US Open lead car is 1856 But after the busy week the set will be returned to Van Cortland.
I guess they warming thing's up!!
Any word on this trains schedule? I'd be happy to snap some pics between wed-fri, and when i get them developed I'll find a scanner at school and e-mail them to Dave P. -Nick
Where did you hear this from? And the US Open is for 2 weeks.
Why are they returning it? Sounds crazy to me since the 7 Redbirds are going to be going soon aren't they?
I second that.
I was at shea today there are NO OTHER silver cars there except for the EP011-12-13 and R 62A 2155. The 7 is VERY short of cars they need everything they can get.
"The 7 is VERY short of cars..."
What is meant by "short of cars?" Is less than full scheduled service being provided on the #7 line because not enough cars are available?
David
What is meant by "short of cars?" Is less than full scheduled service being provided on the #7 line because not enough cars are available?
No, but full service, as opposed to scheduled service, is not provided because there are not enough cars.
I'm not going to get into a circular argument with Mr. Bauman again over the reasons full service (by his definition) isn't being/never was/can't be provided. I believe my question is still valid, and I am still waiting for the person who indicated that there is a car shortage to back up that statement with facts.
David
The 'singles' are on summer vacation, so the line is running 10 car trains instead of 11. That is short of full service.
Haven't some of the R-33 singles already taken a belly flop off the barge?
Just one (9321); the others are sunbathing in Corona Yard.
the other [R33s] are sunbathing in Corona Yard.
Better watch out! They already look sunburned!
;-D Andrew
You have to wonder how bad the rust/mechanical condition of 9321 must have been for them to single out that single for ocean diving while the other R-33WFs remained in Corona for their fairwell fall tour of Roosevelt Ave. and midtown Manhattan.
Well, 31 single R-33s are needed for daily service (once the summer's over, that is). 38 are extant (not counting the one in the Transit Museum). That leaves 7 as spares/long-term holds. For a 15% or slightly better spare/SMS (not that it's being done any more on this class)/hold ratio, 6 cars are needed, meaning that only one more car can be scrapped without impacting service.
David
The lack of single-unit R-33s is not a car shortage; it is an operational decision (NOTE: I'm not stating that I either agree or disagree with that decision). The cars are sitting in Corona Yard, are in operable condition, and should return to service some time around Labor Day. Besides, the usual definition of "car shortage," at least in the subway, means that less than the required number of TRAINSETS is provided, and therefore frequency of trains is adjusted downward, not less than the required number of CARS (the LIRR, for example, runs short trains if a full complement of cars is not available).
Incidentally, the pick that began on August 5 features two additional #7 line trainsets on weekdays, bringing train requirements from 29 to 31 (I believe the historical high is 34).
David
I thought the previous posts were referring to a 'shortage' of cars related to the uniqueness of the #7 line's 11 car/summer 10 car trains. I would have never thought that there were a shortage of trainsets. The intervals are so close together that it seems they're running right on top of each other (at least during rush hour). That is a great line!
I suppose techincally you can say there is a shortage of air conitioned single car units on the Flushing Line -- shortage in this case meaning there are zero AC single units as of now -- while there is no shortage of trainsets for 10-car service.
I guess that once the R-62As start to run on the #7 IRT Corona Flushing line this will mean that the "Redbirds" (R-33/36WFs) will soon meet their makers which will be Davy Jones' locker.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I would think the `Birds still have at least a few months to go -- since the No. 5 train hasn't begun getting it's R-142s yet, it's doubtful you'll see any on the No. 3 train soon. And until they start showing up on the 3, the R-62As can't be shifted over to Corona.
is it still running? i have not seen it yet. can somebody tell me what hour it runs
I don't know about "Still running." I haven't heard a word about it ever running in the first place despite rumors.
On a round-trip ride on the No. 7 line during the morning rush hour Thursday I saw nothing but Redbirds. A visit to the walkway over Corona Yard around 10 a.m. revealed solid Redbirds. The only thing silver that was visible aside from work car EP011 was the top of the rails.
My visit to Corona Yard (via the overpass) revealed the same thing.
I'm sure that the "Redbirds" on the No. 7 IRT Corona Flushing line will soon be gone. I'm not sure when but I wouldn't be surprised to see them become history come next spring.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Dear Fellow SubTalkers:
Since I missed the "Last Rides" on the PCCs on Friday, and the SubTalk trip the day before too, I decided to trek out to the NCS tonight after work to document the first day of operation of the Kinki-Sharyo LRVs. Go to my website, Keystone Pete's Trolley Photos, and follow the link there. I'll post a trip report later, perhaps. Enjoy!
Pete,
I just visited your site for the first time. Nice job with the LRV photos...as well as the "W" line and Boston/Maine exibit!! -Nick
Great shot of the former Franklin Loop sans inbound track.
Also a question; were the front end destination signs opertional?
The automated audio stop announcements were working. The scrolling LED in the car interior displayed safety announcements, but not destinations, IIRC. In fact, there are some "breaks" in power along the line in both directions, which cause the LED to reset itself with a test pattern. I didn't notice what the exterior end-sign readout was. I was fast running out of daylight by the time I got to Branch Brook Park, and I wanted to get some shots from my usual perch at Davenport Ave. on the way back, so I was rushing a bit. These are definitely not my best photos. I will have to go back during the daytime to get some better shots and pay more attention. Then, of course, it will no longer be the "first day."
On my car, the audio track was reciting HBLR stations until they were turned off.
Day 2 and I went to see the new cars (I haven’t tried the HBLR yet).
I got to the mezzanine to buy tickets and there was someone from NJT there giving out apology sheets–“Problems with equipment”, “Problems with signals” etc, etc.
When I punched my first ticket, I looked, and the time from the machine was ¾ hour fast. I guess NJT set them that way to compensate for the train delays.
Went down to wait for a train. And wait. And wait. There was a radio conversation that was loud enough to hear about how to fix a stalled car, that was a major hold-up. After about ½ hour, an LRV comes round the loop–very quietly–and disappears without taking any passengers (there are about 150 people waiting at this point). We are informed by someone from NJT on the platform that this was the failed car.
Five minutes later, a second car comes around, and everyone piles on, except me. I wanted to be able to pick my seat. Five minutes after that, a third car comes around, and doesn’t stop. Five minutes after that, I manage to get on the fourth car. Bummer! The seats at the front face backwards, and there isn’t a railfan window, although you can stand and see through the door into the motorman’s compartment (any guesses about how long before that’s covered with newspaper?)
The LRV was amazingly quiet and smooth–none of the jerks that subway cars have when the windings switch, just a change in pitch as the car accelerates.
I paid attention this time–just after Penn station, there are turnouts that look like they are used. Where do they go to? I looked at the tracks as best I could the rest of the trip, and there don’t appear to be any turnouts or sidings that dead cars could be pushed into.
I got off at Branch Brook Park. The loop has been ripped out completely and the ballast removed. There were some big earth-moving machines there, so I guess they’re getting ready for the next build stage pretty quickly.
I was surprised overall at the ridership level–I guess this is a popular way from the apartment blocks that I saw along the trip into downtown Newark.
Last question: how does this line get connected to the HBLR?
John
I knew there would be some kinks! Bring back the PCCs!!!
Anyway - this line and HBLR are pretty far apart (Jersey City and Newark) - I don't think they'll be connecting them anytime soon.
wayne
They can be connected, though. "Just" extend the line from Penn Station through the Ironbound district, across the Passaic River, and connect with the HBLR at the West Side Ave station.
It can be done. I suppose eventually it may be considered, but I doubt it is being given much serious thought now.
What about the Hackensack River?
I can understand the desire for there to be a single system, but that's the only thing that would make such a connection useful. It's not enough to justify it.
Maybe one day when both systems are much larger, when the HBLR goes from Ridgefield to Bergen Point in Bayonne and the NELR (future Newark Subway) runs from Elizabeth to Paterson.
Meanwhile, why do not have free transfers between both light rail systems and PATH?
Nice idea.
But the HBLR doesn't even have transfers to connecting busses, and PATH doesn't connect to the subway when they're in the same station body (making such a thing simple)
That would be a nice start.
I had to pay four separate fares to get from Manhattan to Liberty State Park: $1.50 for the subway, $1.50 for PATH, $1.50(?) for HBLR, and $1.00 for the bus from the Liberty State Park station (which is about a mile from its namesake park). The park is visible from Exchange Place but it costs $2.50 to get there.
How much does the Ferry from the World Financial Center cost?
To Liberty Harbor the cost is $ 4.00
Peace,
ANDEE
the right of is there all ready!! the cnj had a branch than ran from jersey to newark. part of that is the west side branch now. also the cnj branch ran into broad st. check a map they line up.
Hmmm, so it may be a lot easier than I thought . . . HOWEVER -
I just remembered the platform configuration at WSA. The platform extends beyond the track and wraps around the front, and there is a pedestrian bridge right in front, so the tracks cannot be extended without major modifications to the station.
And I seriously doubt NJT will embark on major reconstruction of a line that has been running for a little over a year!
You know something, I never thought of that! There at Westside Avenue it looks like they have a provision for extension (a place to put the ramp, the parking lot's not permanent, there could be a street-running) but is there a bridge to go over that lovely, scenic river and so into Newark? That was formerly a railroad line, IIRC. Historians, can you answer this one?
wayne
yea that is the newark branch of the cnj. it ran through to broad st newark. there are still piers in the river and can be seen from truck rt 1-9. i think most of the right of way is still in place in the iron bound area of newark.
Oh come on. Give NJT a f***ing break. Any time you introduce new equipment to a route -- especially one that hasn't had new equipment in over 40 years -- you are going to have "teething" problems.
There isn't a transit system out there that either started up brand new, or got new equipment to replace old worn out stuff that didn't have problems for a couple weeks.
****Oh come on. Give NJT a f***ing break. Any time you introduce new equipment to a route -- especially one that hasn't had new equipment in over 40 years -- you are going to have "teething" problems. ****
No, they don't deserve a break. NJT is generally a fine outfit, but this time they screwed up. Thorough testing of the new cars with the new signal system would have made for smoother (if not completely kink-free) going. For Pete's sake, the city subway has been closed every weekend for quite some time and the project is a year and a half behind schedule. They've had ample opportunity to test to their heart's content.
I rode the first night. The cars had plenty of squeaks and groans and several jolting stops along with several sections of side to side swaying of the car.
Some of this can be attributed to a learning curve due to new cars amd the need for the operator to get used to the new cars.I intend to ride again when the extension opens.
JohnL asked about the turnouts outside Newark Penn on the City Subway--those are the abandoned connections for the Broad Street line which I believe went to the Public Service Coordinated Transporation headquarters and terminal. One of the NJ experts may provide more information (and correct me if I'm mistaken).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
That would be Cedar Street. They will reopen that to provide a connection to the Broad Street RR Station in the near future.
I was told that because of mechanical differences in the equipment due to different track design that the HBLR and NCS could never be connected.
It could explain why cars on the two systems have completetly different numbering arrangements.
An NJT press release mentions that the wheel design is the main difference between the NCS Kinkis and the HBLR's. This would imply that one line's cars are not compatible with the other.
By different wheel design, I would presume that means that the NCS Kinkis have streetcar profile wheels and the HBLR Kinkis have railroad profile wheels. Streetcar wheels have shallower flanges and do not like railroad frogs (they tend to drop in on the frog) Railroad wheels don't like streetcar frogs. Check the frogs on the NCS and if the frogs carry the wheel on its flange through the frog, then the NCS is streetcar profile. If they look like standard railroad frogs, then it's something else.
Well, at the very least, if they wanted to connect the two systems, they could have the Newark cars terminate at West Side Av, or have the HBLR cars come into Penn Station and end there, either way on their own tracks.
So we should look for a metal base on the frog that the flange rests on?
John
Not only are there Baseball specials they have Tennis specials which means certain days this week we will have 1 minute headways Plus extra crews Everywhere. Rush hour on the Queens IRT should be fun ,look for some trains to terminate at Shea instead of going to Main.Also 11 Cars come back sept 15
I've got a question about the 11 car issue with the R-62/A's that are (supposedly) going to the Corona/Flushing line:
Will they (the 62's) be able to operate in 11 cars, or will they have to truncate the train size to accomodate mechanical specs?
That has been discussed here on SubTalk numerous before you came here to join us. We do not know, haven't heard, we'll all find out when the first of the R62A's enters service on the #7 line.
Also 11 Cars come back sept 15
11 cars are already back on the #7 line as of September 2, 2001.
I've noticed them at 42nd St. - Times Square, and 40 St. Lowery St.
All the trains I have seen had 11 cars.
: )
Railfan Pete.
With a Whir of A.C., and a Few Clunks, Newark's New Subway Cars Roll
Peace,
ANDEE
Here is the Star Ledger story. One of these days I'll figure out how to make it a link.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/jersey/ledger/143b6b1.html
Oh, you mean like this?
Hehehehe........
It is an html tag and its nomenclature is in two parts.
First is a left facing angle bracket (Less than sign)
then inside the bracket is: A HREF=
then inside quotes the URL of the site you want: "http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/jersey/ledger/143b6b1.html"
followed by a right facing angle bracket (Greater than sign)
Then in plain text the words to show as underlined in blue...
... if you want that to be the URL, then write it out again
... if you want that to be something else, as I have done above, then write that
Then finish the URL code with a final tag to close the A tag that you had opened above, so enter another Less than sign followed by: /A and then another greater than sign, and you are done.
I can't write that out for you, because your browser will read it correctly and present it as the line I did at the top of the page.
If you want to see what this looks like, right click on this message and scroll down to where my text begins, and you will see the code the way the browser sees it.
Elias
Click here.
One of these days I'll figure out how to make it a link.
and that day is today
just type (A HREF="type address here") Name of link(/A) DON'T FORGET!! Replace the ( with a < and the ) with a >
At 5 p.m. on the first day of LRV service I noted a far different operation than as described in the Star-Ledger article by Barry Carter.
At 4:51 p.m. my car finally left Penn Station with a standing crowd. With much creep and stop, we arrived at Branch Brook terminal at 5:18, a 27-minute trip that my PCC did in 12 minutes outbound on May 3rd, 7:57 a.m. The article says that 16 new cars were in service. Maybe each half counts as a car, because I counted eight. Car 101 left Branch Brook at 5:23 p.m., car 102 at 5:30, car 108 at 5:40, car 114 at 5:46, car 111 at 5:55, Car 109? at 5:58, car 103 at 6:04, car 116 at 6:06, then 101 again left at 6:12. That is 49 minutes for a complete trip (start to start). On May 3rd, sixteen PCC's were doing the complete trip in 32 minutes. Headways used to be 2 minutes. Last night averaged 6 minutes.
Many passengers exiting at "Franklin Avenue" vented their gripes. One repeated comment was that standees (standee capacity "120") found few places to hold on to.
The loop is used at Penn Station. At Branch Brook both tracks are used, but there seems to be something amiss with the signals as even the cars on the "inbound" track remained stopped too long after closing their doors.
NJT has got to provide 2-minute headway to keep the passengers.
If the article mentions about 16 cars being in service, is that the whole fleet assigned to the Newark City Subway or is it peak rush hour service requirements? All transit operators have spares because you will always have cars down for maintance. Newspaper writers do not know the difference because in general newspapers do not have reporters who are transit experts. The part NJT doesn't tell you is this: and it is a bit of the same mentality in reference to articulated buses. Management says the labor (the operator) is expensive. Let's get a larger vehicle and give that operator the abilty to carry more people per car. Now we need less operators. We used to fill up our PCC cars, we also want to fill up our LRV's. The only way to do this is to have longer headways. Mass transit systems do not want to run half empty cars/trains during the peak hours. Therefore say "So Long" to 2 minute frequencies on the Newark City Subway. Half empty cars/trains adds to operating costs. Additional operating costs means that a fare hike would be required. Now you wouldn't want THAT would you???????
Let's take a moment to remember the people who died in the Union Square wreck. 10 years ago today...really...10 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
And let's hope and pray it does not happen again............
Amen to that.
Hard to believe that 10 years have flown by so quickly.
May all the victims REST IN PEACE !!!
Shortly after 12:00 this morning, I was waiting at Union Square for an uptown anything (actually, hoping for R-29s on the 6), and I thought about the disaster and how this year would be the tenth anniversary. Thing was, I couldn't remember the date, or even the time of year, it happened.
The crash occurred at 12:11AM on August 28, 1991.
May the victims rest in peace.
1437(+)-1439-1440(+)-1436-1435-1434-1433-1432-1431-1438
Of the first 5 cars listed, It would seem that only 1436 remains after 10 years and resides at 207th St Yard.
1431-34 and 38 are together, and the only R-62 set out of sequence.
-Stef
Isn't 1438 still running
Yes it is; it is in the bunch with 1431-2-3-4 and is the only R62 with a unit number not ending in 1,5,6, or 0 to have a transverse cab.
wayne
They should renumber 1438 as the new 1435.
I also wish to add that may the 5 persons the lost their lives in the IRT Union Square crash never be forgotten.
R.I.P.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Yes, they should be remembered in our prayers and the prayers of their loved ones.
wayne
Here, here. I'll third that.
Yes. R.I.P to the 5 victims.
6.My uncle died last week of an injury he substained during the crash
We've had an undulating thread here on subtalk for a while on the issue of grafitti ... love it, hate it, despise it, lock the bastards up, no matter what one's opinion of it (and as I've often said, only an infinitessimal portion of it qualifies as "art" and 100% of it is criminal because it IS/WAS vandalism).
But as surely as the Stork Club and speakeasies, Bryant Park where you can score lids and kilos even today, Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed, like it or not, grafitti *IS* part of New York's history every bit as much as Legs Diamond (who resided on 204th Street and Webster Avenue once upon a time) ...
Anyone who ever downloaded and ran the Mechanik electric MU simulator and downloaded the "NYC Subway" routes saw those IRT cars with grafitti on them and had to at least, if nothing better, get a "nostalgic sphincter tingle" from the memories, good bad or indifferent. See? It DOES qualify as history no matter how you personally feel about it.
Only reason I bring this up is that what few moments of it that still can be captured for posterity should be preserved for future observers of our recently past times. It's EXPECTED for the larger image of the times many of us lived in ... and this has nothing to do with one's personal feelings of right, wrong, or "ahhhhhh" ... really was a bit of history every bit as much as the BMT standards ...
(talk amongst yourselves, I have agita). Heh.
I can't argue with you. For a good 15 years or so, graffiti was a part of subway.
That alone qualifies as history.............
Thanks for that ... I'm not taking sides in this though each side fo the grafitti issue probably thinks I'm on the other side. It was *SUCH* an absolutely unmissable aspect of life in the late 60's, 70's and 80's until the TA *finally* decided to wage war on it. Most of it was absolute crap, and worse. But some of it truly WAS art. I'm not going to fill up the archives with a duplicate rant on what I *did* like, nor will I rant on why it really cheesed me off (the wasterful crap) ... but love it or hate it, it went on for a VERY long time in subway history, almost as long as some of the cars ... that makes it pretty serious in my book as a "preservation" item, either "in situ" or at least in print ...
I couldn't agree more. Seeing a graffiti-painted transit car at a museum would be something of a novelty. In the same way that at least SOME freight engines should be preserved with the grime cover, work-stained look (or at least simulated), subway cars should not all be in a prestine condition. Although, I think that as much as the urine smell is history, THAT needed cleaning up. It's unhygenic.
I have to run now, I have a damned English test this morning. Can anyone on here vouch for me that I can speak English? Really?
Lexcie
Many years ago, we had a movie here called "POLYESTER" by a fellow named John Waters who made this film in "ODORAMA" ... this miracle process involved a special "scratch and sniff cardboard" which was given out with each ticket in the theatre. A number would appear on screen and you'd dutifully skritch the same number on the cardboard and be subjected to a number of "interesting" smells. Bottom line, EASILY done. :)
Perhaps a very special 10-numbered cardboard could be created from each of the various "official smell of New York" sites such as the 42nd underpass, DeKalb, PA Bus terminal, etc ...
<< the various "official smell of New York" >>
Yummy! Urine, vomit, feces, bodies in various stages of decomposition, etc. Can't wait....
The thing is, most people associate the graffiti on the trains with the general urban blight, piss poor economy and high crime rates that made NYC a true cesspool during the later 70s & 1980s. It'll probably be another 20 or so years before the trauma of that time heals and people accept that graffiti was just as much a part of NYC history as Boss Tweed, and i'm certain there will be people kicking themselves that the city didn't save a few redbirds to be graff-painted, or some of the old originals.
.>> It'll probably be another 20 or so years before the trauma of that time heals and people accept that graffiti was just as much a part of NYC history as Boss Tweed, and i'm certain there will be people kicking themselves that the city didn't save a few redbirds to be graff-painted, or some of the old originals. <<
Hopefully, history will not repeat itself.
Hey, if the graffiti enthusiasts want to paint some redbirds for history - there is a reef that I know of that they can go to )I just hope they can swim with all those paint cans).
history has repeated itself: tweed-ghooliani. heheheh!
.>> It'll probably be another 20 or so years before the trauma of that time heals and people accept that graffiti was just as much a part of NYC history as Boss Tweed, and i'm certain there will be people kicking themselves that the city didn't save a few redbirds to be graff-painted, or some of the old originals. <<
Hopefully, history will not repeat itself.
Hey, if the graffiti enthusiasts want to paint some redbirds for history - there is a reef that I know of that they can go to (I just hope they can swim with all those paint cans).
No offense intended ... it's not a question in this consciousness stream as to whether or not it will happen again (the stream that allowed this to happen has recognized how to control it) rather than simply, it DID ... and as such, by nature of its long status over time, has BECOME history and the passions you raise only validate that is *IS* history because it has indeed had a major emotional impact on the masses who WILL remember it ... that pretty much accentuates the point I offered given that it DOES raise memories that are almost as strong as some war conflicts our nation has historically recorded.
I say this only to further shape the basis from which I launched this point ... "like it or not, it WAS history" ... so far, the thesis has no rebuttal ...
I found this. looks like somthing about redbirds.
Support your
local cause
PRACTICE
CANIBALISM!
That'd qualify as art if well-sprayed ... "art" is anything that modifies our outlook, however briefly. National Lampoon was often art. Too often, it was vandalism of the mind too. But that's ALSO way off topic here. But I like that just the same. I'm a PROFESSIONAL cynic, kids, don't try this at home. :)
well I found it at a train station and it wasn't sprayed it was made with a marker.
The Black Death is part of history, too. Should we celebrate it?
It's NOT a question of "celebrate" ... merely PRESENT it as "well, this happened too" ... don't pump it up past what anybody WANTS, history is ... well, this happened THEN ... anything beyond is "Dateline" or "20/20" ... but it WAS part of history, and I personally look at it totally impassioned, one way or the other. It just WAS.
There are a few things that came out of the Black Death that are, in a way, celebrated. Such as saying "bless you" after a sneeze, and the song "Ring around the Rosy."
And of course, the Black Death, by killing a third of Europe, shook up society enough to begin the movement away from the Middle Ages.
It's because they're too busy dealing with other news - such as this breaking story just featured on their web site:
The unpublished memoir of a 19th-century Supreme Court justice's wife -- with a foreword by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg -- is finally coming out.
The Modern Library announced Monday that Malvina Shanklin Harlan's ``Some Memories of a Long Life, 1854-1911'' will be published next spring.
Hey, with crucial things like that to report, how can the Times be expected to devote any attention to transit?
It took me a while to find that article, finally did after following a couple links to "AP Entertainment." I even stumbled across "Judge Delays Effort to Close Token Booths and With a Whir of A.C., and a Few Clunks, Newark's New Subway Cars Roll.
And, did anyone catch this laudatory letter about the R-1 last week?
Because it is easier to read the post, news and newsday on the train then the times
Because it is easier to read the Post, News and Newsday on the train then the Times.
I know I'm pointing out the obvious here, but those three papers' design is not an accident, and largely based on your reasoning. Ever notice how the Wall St. Journal is bigger than all of them?
That's because The WSJ and the Times are Newspapers, and the Daily News and Post are Tabloids. The Sun, Mirror, Brooklyn Eagle were also Tabloids.
The old Eagle was a newspaper
That's because The WSJ and the Times are Newspapers, and the Daily News and Post are Tabloids.
Technically, a full-sized newspaper such as the Times is called a "broadsheet."
Interesting. In 1904, the Times made a big deal in being in the then-new Times Square, with a new Subway stop in the Times' building's basement.
It bragged about having it's papers delivered by SUBWAY.
What a change in nearly 100 years.
And I'm so tired of hearing about the "C- guy" and the missing jewish princess. I don't even feel like watching the news anymore because it's all tabloid junk that doesn't effect me. If this C-guy slept with 10 women, it's none of our damn business.
As for world news the Xinhua is a much better source than any media in the U.S.
Yup, transit gets more headlines in most other countries, except in the U.S. where the highest forms on media mimic the National Enquirer.
I went on a DVD buying binge this weekend, picking up The Warriors among others. A few details caught my attention.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn was used for one of the Union Square scenes. They used the outer platform with tiled columns and put "Union" placards over the "Hoyt" signs. At least they got the train markings quasi correct in this instance; you can see L and LL signs; however the destination signs aren't correct at all. A funny thing, the "Union Square" station sign at the beginning of the scene was actually on the Canarsie line. I remember seeing it back in the late 60s. They also filmed one scene on the Canarsie line platform. Swan is seen walking down the Lex platform at Union Square with a train headed by an R-12/14 and marked, "No Passengers" departing. Later, when he looks around the mezzanine, the scene cuts to a station pillar on the BMT Broadway line with "Union Sq. 14th St" and "To 14th St. subway" signs. I remember those, too.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn was also used for the 96th St. scenes; however, they used the opposite outer platform with untiled columns. Very cute.
I also noticed something unusual, and I need confirmation on this: is there in fact a station house at 96th St. on the West Side IRT? I've been at that station lots of times, but have never exited from it. There is a scene with a station house, which looks an awful lot like the one at 72nd St., only instead of a "72" above the entrance doors, there is a "96".
The prom couples get off at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, where a slant R-40 is visible across the platform (probably an A train). As the R-27/30 train the Warriors are on accelerates, blue IND-style tile is visible through the windows. Definitely not H-S.
During the opening titles, the train pulling into the el station in the platform level shot is marked, "QB-City Hall". M markings are common, with Chambers St. and Ninth Ave. as destinations. A B train can be seen during the opening titles as well as brief shots of trains of R-32s and R-46s. The train pulling into the el station as the Warriors are waiting to make their move right after Cyrus gets shot is marked as a J. Interestingly enough, the side destination signs on most of the R-27/30s are illuminated, though not always in the right direction.
And last but not least, here's the sequence of stations on the Fulton St. express tracks during the opening titles:
Franklin Ave.
Utica Ave. (you can even see the never-used shell)
Liberty Ave.
Franklin Ave.
Nostrand Ave.
Nostrand Ave.
Nostrand Ave.
Kingston-Throop Ave.
Utica Ave. (played back at double time)
I have to wonder if the trains were intentionally marked incorrectly so people wouldn't associate such and such a line with gang warfare.
I also noticed something unusual, and I need confirmation on this: is there in fact a station house at 96th St. on the West Side IRT? I've been at that station lots of times, but have never exited from it. There is a scene with a station house, which looks an awful lot like the one at 72nd St., only instead of a "72" above the entrance doors, there is a "96".
There is a building in the Broadway median at 96th Street that looks something like a station house. I'm not sure if it ever was one, but it certainly hasn't been in use as a station entrance since 1974.
did amtrak lay off people yet?
Certainly not any precious management. They need all those 70K/yr Product Line Managers. Abolish Train Dispatcher jobs on the NY division? Sure- it's not like those guys DO anything!
EGGS!
I noticed on Sunday that the north end of the northbound platform has been widened. Since the platforms used to taper to points at all four ends (they still do at the other three), that means that the local track was moved into a new bit of tunnel. The path of the former platform edge and track is still readily apparent.
I knew this was planned but I'm surprised (and most pleased!) to see that it's actually finished.
The north end of the platform is fenced off. The next step, I presume, is to install a staircase to the new north entrance (which doesn't exist yet in any form) in the former northbound side of Broadway between 72nd and 73rd.
Yup, you got that right, it happened not this past but the one before it (weekend)...When this is done, then its time for the downtown side to have its time. But thankfully the residents of the 79 and 86sts stops aren't going to be deprived of service due to the switch BEFORE the downtown 72nd street platform. Yay!
Did you notice? The 1 isn't touching the express tracks this weekend, for the first time in months! (Well, until Chambers Street, where it becomes the 3.)
I'm sure our station will still be bypassed on occasion for further platform work, but the reprieve is most welcome.
I don't think the southbound platform is being widened or lengthened. It already reaches far enough north. The northbound platform was widened and lengthened so the new entrance wouldn't dump passengers onto the tracks.
I hope it's just my imagination, but it appears that the projects at 42nd and 72nd aren't coordinated. In particular, last week, when southbound trains were running express from 72nd to 42nd (leaving the local tracks free at both stations), work was only taking place at 42nd. I'll bet that, in a few months, the same GO will take place for work at 72nd. Wouldn't it make more sense to take advantage of the GO and do work at both 42nd and 72nd at the same time?
In any case, I don't really mind the 72-42 or 42-72 express runs. The 59 transfer has become much less important with the bridge flip, so we get our own special express run.
Next weekend the 1 gets a rare express run: 137 to 96. I haven't been on that track since 1990 or so (northbound -- and then it wasn't supposed to be running express and I was trying to get to 103, so I wasn't very pleased).
I believe that means that that new exit is going to be adjacent to the park in the square by 73rd Street (correct me if I'm wrong)
Correct! The routing of the M104 currently is permanent, and the uptown side of Bway from 72-73 will be a plaza/park w/no traffic and the entrance will be there!
>a plaza/park w/no traffic and the entrance will be there!
Vehicular traffic NO.
Foot traffic YES.
I meant somewhere in the vicinity of the park (maybe inside the park [like in Union Square], maybe outside the park itself)
ACE(assuming both sides of manny b open)
BDFQ
Move the D train and Q train to Broadway Express tracks
Swap the B and the C south of 59th - B would run to Ozone Park via the IND Fulton-Pitkin subway, and C would run to COney Island via the North Side Manhattan Bridge.
Reinstate the Canarsie-Williamsburg-Chrystie-6th K train as an all-day run and then cut midday J service (it runs too often)
Create a new train, the "U" train, to use the Culver express tracks, Rutgers tunnel (it's underutilized), 6th Ave local, and 53rd St tunnels. RUn the F through 63rd St full-time.
This would not only improve service but make the trunk lines easier to remember. I think you see my point...
OK.
If the D is moved permanently to Broadway, how does it get to 205th Street in the Bronx? Is the B extended to 205th all times?
What about 6th Avenue Express service. Will the C run Express, or will it be the U running express up 6th Avenue and CPW and through to the Bronx.
I like your idea reinstating the K and running it through to Canarsie.
It will give Canarsie passengers a one seat ride to midtown. I would run it express along Bway in Brooklyn.
Ummm... I'm not certain, but I think you're missing the "joke". Re-read his post and then think about which lines would be running on 6th Ave after his proposed re-routes...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
hahahahaha...
S E X
Ah. Another graduate of the French University of Canadian Kings. Or is that the Sam Houston Institute of Technology?
EGGS!
What's the easiest/cheapest way to get from NYC to Phila? Thanks...
NJT to Trenton, connect with SEPTA R7 to Philadelphia; it may even be slightly cheaper than Greyhound.
$24 round-trip if you buy all four tickets at once from a NJT ticket machine. Dirt cheap.
That is cheap! $16.45 ONE WAY.
Now, depending on where in Philly you want to go, a ticket within SEPTA territory can be cheaper if you buy between stations (Trenton to Wissahickon, for example, is cheaper than Trenton to Center City Philadelphia, due to zone pricing).
It is cheaper; Greyhound is $21 each way, but much faster than the two trains.
Really? Express trains cannot cut to the chase?
For best results: Ride the 5:03PM train from New York, which is a "SUPER EXPRESS" train to Trenton, (weekdays only) making only three stops. Transit time is approx. 54-57 minutes.
Hopefully you'll use your genie magic for the quickest R7 SEPTA train from there. It takes around 45 minutes from Trenton to PHILLY 30 St. station making all stops except for Eddington, or some other...
: )
Railfan Pete.
thanks, guys....
Guys thanks for the help in answering about Rego Park, no I have one more question. I may have to come to NYC for a couple of weeks, does anyone know of inexpensive hotels that rent on weekly basis,
...and the C/R operating it at 3 in the morning.
Jim Knipfel and the battle of Broadway-Lafayette
The columnist seemed too drunk to notice what the LCD signs read or perhaps understand what the announcements were. Or there really weren't anything on those LCD signs and the announcements were garbled. I'm leaning toward the former...
But then again, having an R-46 train on the Brooklyn bound track as the Queensbridge Shuttle seems dumb as well.
The columnist seemed too drunk to notice what the LCD signs read or perhaps understand what the announcements were. Or there really weren't anything on those LCD signs and the announcements were garbled. I'm leaning toward the former...
The columnist, Jim Knipfel, is nearly blind, so he might not have been able to see the LCD signs from any kind of distance.
So let's see...
There was a Shuttle on the southbound local track at B'way Lafayette. To get back to Queensbridge, it has to wrong-rail thru West 4 St station, then cross the switch to southbound exp track, then the switch to the northbound exp, bypass 14 and 23 Sts, then wait for a D to leave 34 St before crossing back to the northbound local.
The only destination sign showed TWO destinations - last I looked the Luminator side signs only show one destination, whereas the R32s normally used on the shuttle do indeed show two destinations.
Having shut the doors, the CR (who was out of uniform if he was wearing a white shirt) walks through the train to the back to let Nitwi.. I mean Knipfel get off the train. Why?
Personally, I don't think he has a clue as to what really happened. Was it an R46, or is that the only kind of train he recognizes? Was it on 1 Track or not? Did this guy actually get on a LAY-UP, which would explain the CR walking back?
Personally I think this guy was just too drunk and made most of the story up.
Personally I think this guy was just too drunk and made most of the story up.
Jim Knipfel's stories are entertaining, but I have a hard time believing some of them. No one can have that many misfortunes!
>>>No one can have that many misfortunes!<<<
I don't know about that....some on this very site seem to have almost as many....I won't mention Qtraindash7s name. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe the guy was too drunk and THOUGHT he was on the Brooklyn bound tracks...
i didn't know TA conductors wear white shirts! Knipfel proved he was drunk and has no credibility because anybody who ever saw a TA conductor knows they wear blue shirts.
Summer whites.
winter blues.
thats what the TA should be doing...
take a cue from the navy
thats what the TA should be doing...
take a cue from the navy
They already did... Redfin submarines!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think Knipfel's tone was pretty abusive considering the guy was going to let him off the train. If someone kept cursing at me like that, I'd curse him back too.
I don't think the Queensbridge shuttle has run at night since service began on July 22.
From cbsmarketwatch.com:
The word on the Street is that after Labor Day, the big commercial banks, brokerage houses and investment banks will abandon the casual look, which they never liked in the first place, on the theory that sloppy dress makes for sloppy workers.
Know what this means?? MORE suit-covered anuses on the LIRR. Christ Almighty, save us from this menace!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
The suit makers were taking a bath! They needed to get people back into the stores to buy dress shirts and ties and all the rest of that stuff.
It's a conspiracy, I tell you...
:0)
I guess suit retailers can throw out their ad campaigns that have recently been centered around trying to convince men that they should buy suits because they like wearing them even though they don't have to.
It's true though -- sloppy dress makes sloppy workers. The thing is, there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. People are by nature sloppy, and want to dress that way to match. How you provide incentive for anybody not to be 'sloppy', is beyond me. Perhaps banks and investment places should do away with sloppy people and replace them with machines.
(even louder) NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
Taking time to properly atire ones self is a virtue, it shows respect of yourself, of your employer, and the people whom you meet and serve in the workplace environment.
It is to be expected in the business workplace.
(While everyone who knows me is rolling on the floor laughing.)
Elias
Then the real question is, what is 'proper attire'? If I'm working in an office with minimal dealings with the general public, why do I need to wear a jacket and tie? I spent years working for many different organizations and no one ever told me what to wear or that I wasn't wearing something appropriate for the occasion - and yes I did deal with the general public a lot, as both a bank Teller and a House Manager Off Broadway. I don't consider my usual state of dress - jeans and a T-shirt - to be sloppy. It's comfortable. However, I know when I can't wear them and have suits and 'casual' clothes as circumstances dictate.
As I grew up, I always wondered what the big deal with "proper attire" was, and how a society that was often so unruly and immoral, that is so against rules, would cling on to such a superficial outward appearance. (look at corrupt business, political, religious, and organized crime leaders, all looking nice behind "suits and ties". They sure must be "virtuous" to "take the time" [and effort] to "respect themselves" and their business). It seemed hypocritical to me. (But that's the point. To look good on the outside even though you're rotten behind the scenes). And highly inconvenient, like in the middle of summer choked up with this tie around my neck. (When I used to look for jobs or worked in a job that required that) But people try to blame all the problems in today's work force on dressing down, but as I just showed, there were already deeper problems in society, and society was simply being "consistent".
People make a moral issue out of it, but women's "dressy" outfits can be highly provocative, and have the same effect on morale and performance as the so-called "sloppy" casual styles. I imagine men too can be wrapped up in being fancy and care more about that than their work. But once again, people (on the "conservative" side) always think going back to the past is the answer, instead of realizing the past had problems too (only more covered up), and moving on.
I know one thing though,when i worked in Rockerfeller Center as a
building engineer i would ride the 14th St Carnasie line dressed in a
suit and tie and carry an attache case with my issues of traction and
models to read at lunch but would have the prettiest girls sitting next to me,i even dated a few....siuts....girl magnets..but they never saw me in my working grey uniform, the same effect on the Long Island R.R.when i moved out to Babylon just when they started the new Metropolitan cars...ahhh what memories.....Karl
Is it true that people used to actually dress up to go to and from work and change into their work clothes at work? I find that amazing.
Peace,
ANDEE
Lots of people in uniformed positions still do that, as there is a locker room at work. It's also to prevent soiling the clothing.
My father would do that many times when he worked at a job requiring a uniform.
I think it's like changing for gym in school. You can wear gym-compatible clothing the whole day, except during the deep winter months, but most people don't do that.
I was thinking more along the lines of everyone in their Sunday go to meeting clothes.
Peace,
ANDEE
We're going to start a tradition here at our software company come September - "Tuxedo Fridays" where everyone must show up (girls too) in ties and tails. These are, after all, elephant times. You know Friday had gotten to be a bit TOO informal when folks started showing up for work in bathrobes and bunny slippers. :)
That's kind of contrary to the spirit of Friday isn't it?
About a century from now, there'll be Casual (or equivalent) Thursdays, because Friday will be a day off.
"because Friday will be a day off"
It already is in many parts of the world, especially the middle east.
Elias
I mean as part of a three-day weekend, not part of a week in which Saturday and/or Sunday are still work days.
""Tuxedo Fridays" where everyone must show up (girls too) in ties and tails. "
Well, that *is* the way they used to dress up for *RADIO* in the early days of broadcasting.
Elias
And why not? Back in THOSE days, radio paid some money. :)
"Is it true that people used to actually dress up to go to and from work and change into their work clothes at work? I find that amazing"
This depends, of course on what kind of work you do.
You would not expect a doctor or a nurse to ride the subway wearing hospital greens, would you.
Nor would a meat cutter or others in commercial food processing.
I worked as a custodian once, and the school provided uniforms. We changed into them at work. At the end of the work day we showered before we got dressed to go home.
Even if you wrk at McDonald's, you put the clown suit on after you get to work.
Elias
>>> Is it true that people used to actually dress up to go to and from work and change into their work clothes at work? <<<
My father never considered it dressing up, but when he went to work, he wore a shirt and tie, slacks, a jacket and a hat. When he got to work he changed into old clothes with coveralls, and work shoes, and drove a heating oil delivery truck around the city. At the end of the day, he showered at work and changed back into his street clothes to return home. He had extra work clothing at the job, so it could be sent out to be washed from there. We never saw his work clothing at home. I never saw him leave the house in the evening without wearing a tie and hat. About the only time he would be more casual would be for a trip to the beach or a picnic in the park.
Toward the end of the ‘50s, he would go out without the tie, but with an open necked sport shirt, a jacket and a hat. When you look at old pictures of a crowd at a baseball game, and every man is wearing a tie and hat, it does not mean they were only white collar workers. Only the very poor would wear dirty work clothing in public when not on the job.
Tom
Yea thats called four tens :0) Karl.
I like checking out those suit wearers when it's 104 out on the subway platforms. At my job at CCNY, we can even wear shorts. I watch these guys on the platforms as their white shirts get darker from sweat, and I'm in shorts and a short sleeve shirt. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
I like checking out those suit wearers when it's 104 out on the subway platforms. At my job at CCNY, we can even wear shorts. I watch these guys on the platforms as their white shirts get darker from sweat, and I'm in shorts and a short sleeve shirt.
I know, that's a wonderful sight!
It's also fun watching the suit-wearers on cold winter days. They have to wear those awkward long coats instead of parkas like normal people.
Why did you terminate a B tag with a /I? You're messing up the whole rest of the page. Didn't you notice something was wrong when you previewed the message?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>Didn't you notice something was wrong when you previewed the message? <<<
Previews?? We don't need no stinkin' previews!! ;-)
Interestingly, my Netscape Communicator 4.76 corrected the error and displayed the message as it was intended.
Tom
Okay, I have more ideas and it's the same as the last time Find every single flaw in my plan
~Continue expansion of MVM's and keep token booth clerks.
~Work with the city for possible plan of demolishing the Willamsburg and Manhattan Bridges and building new stronger bridges designed for maximum train and car weight without sinking or moving.
~Add a third track to the Jamaica Avenue Section of the J/Z line so that the Z can do a rush hour peak express so that the J/Z can compete with the E line.
~Create a new line that will run from Rockaway Parkway on the L then at Broadway Junction run on the J/Z as peak direction express like the Z to 95 Street Brooklyn
~Work on the Delancey Street Station and create a 2 side platform/ 4 track station so that the J/Z and the new line can run express.
~Work on the Bowery Station to make it a local only stop so the the J/Z/ and new line may run express to canal.
~Have the J/Z termiante at Canal Street all times while the new line and the M line go to Brooklyn.
~Make sure the L.I.R.R project to Grand Central gets completed.
~Look into the "Super Express" as a reality line from Jamaica Terminal to Grand Central Terminal.
So what do you think of these new plans Crap? b/s? Good? You're getting better? Or dont become a city planner? Give opinions cause opinions is what I need.
Since you want opinions, I'll say you're not getting better or productive.
I'll leave the LIRR and the L - Canarsie Line, and the Bowery, J/M/Z lines to their experts, but for your sake:
~Work with the city for possible plan of demolishing the Willamsburg and Manhattan Bridges and building new stronger bridges designed for maximum train and car weight without sinking or moving.
IMPOSSIBLE: Too much time, Too much money, Too many shipments for new equipment, trucks, and will cause TOO MUCH CONGESTION WITH NO WILLIAMSBURG OR ESP. THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE. Cars won't have a way around.
~Add a third track to the Jamaica Avenue Section of the J/Z line so that the Z can do a rush hour peak express so that the J/Z can compete with the E line.
IMPOSSIBLE: Platform isn't wide enough, budget spent for cutting or expanding platforms, installing track, salaries for workers, time, construction vehicles would DISRUPT service totally on the J/Z at Jamaica Center.
Also no track switches or relays or connected signals to accompany a third rail.
MOST OF ALL, it is IMPOSSIBLE TO construct an express rail between the two rails that are already in existence because T/A cannot work in midair, and also, little houses are implented into it.
If you ever ride the J/Z from Jamaica Center Manhattan-bound, you'll notice how the space between the two local rails won't allow for an express rail to be built.
~Create a new line that will run from Rockaway Parkway on the L then at Broadway Junction run on the J/Z as peak direction express like the Z to 95 Street Brooklyn
Please clear up what you're trying to say. PEAK direction is not outbound to Brooklyn, it's always going to be Queens-bound or INBOUND. And it's
IMPOSSIBLE: The Z can never make it to 95th St. Brooklyn. (ESP. NOT at the Bay Ridge R station).
WHY NEW ELEVATED LINES CANNOT BE BUILT:
Too much money, workers. salary, too much equipment to work for, BUILDINGS will be in the way, and populations are too crowded in that area.
I'll leave the other lines to the experts because I am not familiar with the Bowery and Canarsie lines.
Railfan Pete.
>> IMPOSSIBLE: The Z can never make it to 95th St. Brooklyn. (ESP. NOT at the Bay Ridge R station). <<
Sure they can. Send it thru the same tunnel as the M goes (Montague St.), have it go down 4th Ave all the way to 95th Street. It would be a hell of a trip for a T/O, but it would increase the frequency along lower 4th Ave (below 36th Street). Plus it would help with the annoying 10 minute headways between R's during rush hour.
Practical? No. Possible? Sure.
But consider this, the M tunnel was only signalled and noted for SPECIAL RUSH HOUR AND EXPRESS SERVICE, as noted in the Subway Map.
I'm not sure if the signals in the M tunnel can be re-configured for regular Z to 95 St. I don't know if there are any track switches at 36 St. Brooklyn, or elsewhere, and how the Z's transferring on the R line, affect the scheduling of the R.
Of course, this is possible, but I don't think it's a probable cause to do so.
Railfan Pete.
But consider this, the M tunnel was only signalled and noted for SPECIAL RUSH HOUR AND EXPRESS SERVICE, as noted in the Subway Map.
The signals are the same anyway. Stop talking about things you know JACK SQUAT about.
Service through the connections runs daily from 6 AM to about 9 PM.
But consider this, the M tunnel was only signalled and noted for SPECIAL RUSH HOUR AND EXPRESS SERVICE, as noted in the Subway Map.
The signals don't know or care what the time of day is.
The M never runs express.
As you may recall, the M was, in fact, extended to 9th Avenue middays after the latest map was printed. This change didn't require signal modification.
I'm not sure if the signals in the M tunnel can be re-configured for regular Z to 95 St. I don't know if there are any track switches at 36 St. Brooklyn, or elsewhere, and how the Z's transferring on the R line, affect the scheduling of the R.
The M uses the exact same tracks as the R from just south of Broad Street to just south of 36th Street. An extended Z wouldn't need to use any switches that aren't in use today.
Peter Dougherty has made his track maps of the subway system available right on this web site. None of what I'm telling you is a secret.
Scheduling is an issue. Switching is not.
If you ever ride the J/Z from Jamaica Center Manhattan-bound, you'll notice how the space between the two local rails won't allow for an express rail to be built.
There should be enough space from Broadway Junction to the the new elevated construction for an express track, esp. if you follow the original plan and have a raised express track from Alabama Ave. to Cypress Hills. The TA should be able to manage something with the little houses - they weren't always there.
~Continue expansion of MVM's and keep token booth clerks.
You don't understand the point of MVMs. The whole point of automation is to ELIMINATE jobs.
Work with the city for possible plan of demolishing the Willamsburg and Manhattan Bridges and building new stronger bridges designed for maximum train and car weight without sinking or moving.
Other than deferred maintenance, and the "surrender of the city beautiful to the city vulgar," what's the problem with the Williamsburg Bridge?
Work on the Delancey Street Station and create a 2 side platform/ 4 track station so that the J/Z and the new line can run express.
Work on the Bowery Station to make it a local only stop so the the J/Z/ and new line may run express to canal.
Where are you going to put in the 2 extra tracks on the Williamsburg Bridge?
Oh, and I'd prefer we didn't let you do any massive work to nice old BMT stations, knowing your stand on art.
~Have the J/Z termiante at Canal Street all times while the new line and the M line go to Brooklyn.
What about all of the people at J/Z stations who actually have JOBS? Sorry, but the purpose of a subway is not to use available tracks, but to get people to employment centers. Last I looked, Canal Street was not one.
I was reading Stan Fleischer's NY Subway book on a flight yesterday and read about all the big subway accidents. Great stories. Anywho, one story was about a huge department store fire that caused a station to go under 4 feet of water (Utica Ave I think). He said that one train, before the rails gave way beneath, drove into 4 feet of water to let passengers off. My question is how? Wouldn't the 3rd rail and undercarriage of the engine have shorted out under water?
Some of those stories are apocryphal. They grow each time they are told. TA train operators are prohibited from operating their train on tracks where water is over the ball of the rails. If the tracks are flooded but water is not over the ball of the rail, they may operate at restricted speed but only with the permission of the desk superintendent at control center (rule 52b).
I have seen situations where water was over the third rail and power was not lost. That's because water is a poor conductor of electricity. However, when the numerous pollutants that are carried by the flooding waters get into the mix, the water begins to conduct electricity but not necessarilly at the levels needed to trip the breakers.
Excuse me, Train Dude, but Water and Electricity do not mix.
Water is a poor conductor of electricity? So are you saying that if water is electrified, scuba divers can safely swim in electrified water???
You are absolutely making no sense. Please clear up what you're trying to say.
Which situations were you in where the 3rd rail was flooded with water but power was not lost?
Railfan Pete.
What Train Dude is trying to say is that the third rail is a much better conductor of electricity than water is, so current will preferentially flow through the rail and, via the power shoe, through the subway car's motors. Similarly, the tracks conduct electricity much better than water, so having standing water in a subway tunnel will not necessary prevent the normal power circuit of substation-thirdrail-subway car-track-substation from functioning as intended.
However, if substantial electrolytes are dissolved in the water, there may occur a short-circuit; this depends on just how much is dissolved in this water. Brine conducts electricity much better than distilled water does.
How did I do, Train Dude? Did I explain that reasonably well? If I screwed up somewhere, please correct me.
Your explanation sounds good to me. Still, in cases of flooding on the tracks, be very careful, as the likelihood of getting electrocuted will be increased in that type of situation.
Here's the explanation from Physlink.
If water WERE a good conductor of electricity, then it wouldn't be a big deal to swim in. Same with humans. We are a poor conductor of electrcity, therefore the electricity stays in us, and electrocutes us. If we were good conductor, it would just pass right thru us.
Water isn't a conductor of electricity at all.
But when was the last time you interacted with pure Hydrogen Oxide?
This makes perfect sense. Water on its own is not a good conductor. You need to add something to it, like salt, that forms ions in water before it becomes a good conductor.
-Robert King
The real problem with high water isn't with the water interfering with current collection; it's when the water gets into the motors. Train Dude is correct about water not being a good conductor; in fact, distilled water is a good insulator. Of course, any water that's going to be filling a subway tunnel will be heavily poluted with dirt, rust particles, etc. When this sort of thing gets into a traction motor, the particles get lodged in the commutator and create a dead short to the armature. This will immediately render the motor useless, and make it necessary to completely disassemble and rewind the armature. Therefore, my guess is that you're correct - it should be possible to operate with water over the third rail, however if the water is high enough to get into the motors then you're really in trouble.
The rule about not operating through water above the head
of the running rail is standard in most electric railways.
There is nothing special about that height other than the
fact that if one can still see the rail head, the water is
below it. If one can not see it, then one does not exactly know
how deep the water is. Especially in tunnels, one could enter
a section of track which is seriously flooded such that either
the power has shorted out or the traction motors will be flooded
and the train will stall, creating a very hazardous condition
for the passengers. If the water should be up to the top of the
third rail insulators, current will flow. It may not be enough
to trip out the section breaker, but it will establish voltage
gradients in the standing water that can cause electrocution.
I have to correct your statements regarding flooded traction
motors. Unfortunately we've had experience with that at Branford.
The problem is not in the commutator. Commutators are made of
copper and mica, neither of which retain water. What does happen
is that water finds its way into every small pinhole in the
insulation of the armature and field windings and permeates them.
The result is to weaken the insulation resistance. If a motor
is flooded, it can generally be repaired by drying either by
blowing hot air through it from the outside, or by passing a
carefully controlled current directly through the armature
and baking it from the inside out. Neither of these require
disassembly of the motor. Sometimes the water brings with it
enough foreign contaminants that the motor has to be flushed with
fresh water or steam cleaned first. If, however, a flooded motor
is operated at line voltage before correcting the insulation
problem, it is likely that the insulation will punch through at
some point and short to ground. This will require complete
disassembly and rewinding to fix.
Frank:
Speaking of water conducting electricity... Did you happen to see (or hear about) Pete's little meltdown with one of the CTA 1-50 singles at the IRM depot on Saturday, just after that downpour? Hell of a fireworks show!
The good news is that the damaged part apparently won't be difficult to fix. In fact, he'll probably be working on it when we do our little tour this Saturday.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh, jeez. No, I didn't hear about that. Which car was it?
Pretty sure it was 22, but I'm not 100% certain. It was the rear car of a 2-car train, and I know car 30 wasn't running that day. IIRC, 41 is the one with the trolley pole and was the lead car (closest to where I was standing). That would leave 22 as the only possibility.
Apparently some rainwater had gotten into the wrong place, and shorted out a 600V circuit. Pete could give you all the gory details, as I'm not exactly sure what specific item had the short. But whatever part it was, Pete talked like he has plenty of spares laying around.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It was the John Wanamaker store at Astor Place in Manhattan (Utica Av is in Brooklyn). The 8th St station on the BMT was affected also.
Yes, an R17 fell into a pit formed when the trackbed was undermined by the rushing water into the Astor Place IRT and 8th Street-NYU BMT stations from a fire in the John Wanamaker building.
A similar flood occurred in 1989 I think at 125th Street-St. Nicholas Avenue when a vertical water main blew a crown valve at 135th Street and St Nicholas Terrace and sent a couple million gallons of water gushing through a park, washing away a hillside and so down into the Subway at 135th Street station where it made its way down to 125th Street and pooled to better than platform level, stranding and nearly ruining a brand new R68A "D" train which happened to be in the station at the time. Quite a mess down there.
wayne
Actually, there were 2 trains of R-68A's involved. While Kawasaki had to do floor repairs on the entire 200 car fleet, there were 16 cars on which the floor warranty was voided because of that flood. Those cars had their floors replaced by Kawasaki in 1996 at the TAs expense. Incidently, you can still tell which cars were involved in that flood. They are the 16 R-68As with the black flooring.
Yep, back then the R68 were all singles, and that's why a black floor car will pop up in the middle of a bunch. i.e. #5014, which we saw as the fourth car of a "W" train last week. I remember #5111 as being one of the sixteen flood victims; saw her last week too, took them a while to repair them, IIRC.
wayne
Why did they link the R-68As? It seems to me that single cars are much more flexible then four-car units.
Dan
Not from a maintenance and engineering standpoint they're not. The drawback is that if one unit goes down then all four go out of service. But they've been doing that since the first days of the R44 (1972) anyway.
wayne
Don't know about that fleet specifically, but maintenance on 4-car units are cheaper than single cars, because if cars aren't normally disconnected, then problems with coupling gear (air leaks, electrical connexions not making, mechanical problem with the drawgear), etc are much less likely to happen.
There may be other reasons, and I defer to Train Dude and other more knowledgable maintenance personnel for that. One basic rule of thumb in transportation is -- you pay for flexibility.
Lexcie
One basic rule of thumb in transportation is -- you pay
for flexibility.
The other rule is that you pay more for the lack of flexibility.
The other rule is that you pay more for the lack of flexibility.
Actually, no you don't -- the market might purchase flexibility, resulting in less revenue for you if you lack the flexibility that the market desires, but YOU don't PAY for lack of flexibility.
Lexcie
Actually, no you don't -- the market might purchase flexibility, resulting in less revenue for you if you lack the flexibility that the market desires, but YOU don't PAY for lack of flexibility.
The R62's and R68's were purchased as single units and converted to linked units. There was no cost savings on the original purchase for single vs. linked units.
The measure for any strategy is delivery of service. To compare the cost for one strategy vs. another, one should compare the two at the same service level. Otherwise, it is apples vs. oranges. Agreed?
The first question is availability. If one has 8 identical cars but one group of 4 are single units and the others are linked, then which group has more available cars and under what conditions. It can be shown that if the probability of failure for any linked car is Q and the failure for any single car is q then in order for there to be more linked cars available:
Q < q/4, where Q, q << 1.
The experience has thus far shown that linking cars together does not provide this necessary increase in reliability. More cars are required to provide the same number of available cars with linking than with single units. At $2+ million per car, this is part of the price that is paid for lack of flexibility.
The second aspect is how to use the available cars. The goal is to guarantee the same level of service for all lines: same headways, same load levels, etc. The same headway criterion is important because many lines are interconnected. Merging services with unequal headways leads to delays and other operational inefficiencies. The problem is that the merged branches do not have equal demand. The way to equalize such load balancing is to vary the number of cars. Otherwise, some routes will be overserved because the branch does not need a 600 foot train at the headway. These extra cars might be better used to increase train lengths on busier lines. The Queens Blvd "E" and "F" lines did once use 660 foot long trains. There is a cost to be paid for a sub-optimal deployment of linked cars.
A third aspect is safety and the TA's response to reduced safety in linked cars. In case of a brake failure, the offending car is cut out. If the failure occurs in the lead car(s), then the train is operated from the next available cab. What happens if the train goes through a red signal? If the lead car is disabled, then the tripper will have no effect. The emergency brakes will not be applied until a car with operational brakes gets tripped. This should not be a problem on straight track because there should be sufficient margin between the emergency stopping distance and the block length. It is a problem at switches. The trippers were placed so that actuating the second car tripper (60 ft cars) would stop the train to avoid a collision. They were not designed for failsafe operation beyond this distance. It cost two passengers' lives for the TA to realize this downside to the cost savings of linked cars. Repositioning the trippers for operation from 300 feet back is not a viable option. It would add too much time for the switch block to clear to operate at the required headways. The TA's response has been to require special supervisors operate such trains. It takes time for these supervisors to arrive on site. What had been a 10 minute delay is now a 1 hour delay. Which account gets charged for the extra labor? It's not the car inflexibility cost account, but it should be.
This is not a simple problem to analyze. It is easy to limit scope and say that linked cars cost less per unit. It is quite another to total up all the additional operational costs and savings to come up with a realistic picture.
Very good point on safety. Operating from a position five cars back is simply a very bad position to work from.
I assume that the special supervisors operating under that circumstance are also limited to a very restricted speed, like 10mph?
The experience has thus far shown that linking cars together does not provide this necessary increase in reliability...At $2+ million per car, this is part of the price that is paid for lack of flexibility.
Steve, I understand your logic but I am not sure I agree 100% with what you say. What you are suggesting here is that we need a given number of available cars per day (for example, at 0500 hours we want 20 out of 22 sets of 4-cars to be available for traffic, but if we made them separate cars we might get away with providing a fleet of just 84 vehicles). But I disagree with your logic that achieving the same level of availability is important. Even if it is apple vs oranges, each of those fruit would have a specific $ tag. If oranges were more expensive than apple, then the consumer might decide to buy an apple when all she wanted in the first place is a piece of fruit.
To further illustrate how cheaply you can make a linked set: in a 4-car set, you can have one power car with three trailers (e.g. BREL class 317). In a 4-car train made from single car units, you have to have the same transformer gear, traction package, driving units, etc on every car. If you are suggesting the capital cost of the 4-car set is not significantly different than the capital cost of four single cars, why aren't freight railroads installing small truck engines underneath each hopper, and building a cab in each hopper? The truth is, centralized design of motive power has always been cheaper (i.e. why don't you build a coal power plant in your backyard) -- one of the reasons EMU's caught on is because of the additional flexibility they offer. But, that kind of flexibility is not needed when you are dealing with systems where the minimum length of train is four cars. For example, on the Boston Red Line, they converted single car units to two-car sets for this precise reason.
Lexcie
...we want 20 out of 22 sets of 4-cars to be available for traffic, but if we made them separate cars we might get away with providing a fleet of just 84 vehicles). But I disagree with your logic that achieving the same level of availability is important. Even if it is apple vs oranges, each of those fruit would have a specific $ tag. If oranges were more expensive than apple, then the consumer might decide to buy an apple when all she wanted in the first place is a piece of fruit.
The history of public transit has been one where patronage has decreased faster than decreased service as a means to implement economies. If headway, transit time, load level, fare, etc. are worsened, the customer will find other means for getting to work. The customer dictates what the service level should be. The operator must find ways to deliver it in an economical manner. Reducing the service level is not an option.
To further illustrate how cheaply you can make a linked set: in a 4-car set, you can have one power car with three trailers (e.g. BREL class 317).
All NYCT cars are powered. It has been more than 30 years since the last trailers were retired. The discussion centers on the costs involved with motor cars as linked units or single units.
If you are suggesting the capital cost of the 4-car set is not significantly different than the capital cost of four single cars, why aren't freight railroads installing small truck engines underneath each hopper, and building a cab in each hopper?
Freight cars spend a significant amount of time on customer premises, being unloaded or waiting to be loaded. Passenger cars on a rapid transit system are used every day (NYCTA has 17% spares; this means that each car has a probability of 85% of being used on any given day). The economics are completely different.
But, that kind of flexibility is not needed when you are dealing with systems where the minimum length of train is four cars. For example, on the Boston Red Line, they converted single car units to two-car sets for this precise reason.
They ran off peak two car trains on the Cambridge-Dorchester Line, when I left Boston in the mid 1960's. I don't know, if the original 1912 equipment that was used on the line during most of my residence in Cambridgte had MUDC. They had a conductor for every two cars. The conductor was between each pair of cars. They did not run an odd number of cars on this line or on the Washington St or East Boston Lines.
They did run one, two and three car PCC trains on the Commonwealth, Beacon St and Riverside lines. They ran one and two car PCC trains on the Watertown and Arborway lines. Only the Tremont St and Mattapan lines ran single cars, when I was there (late 1950's - mid 1960's).
If headway, transit time, load level, fare, etc. are worsened, the customer will find other means for getting to work. The customer dictates what the service level should be.
The customer dictates? Let's shut down the NYCTA -- cuz it runs at a loss anyway. All the customers can find other ways to get to work, sure. To argue that in a loss-making business that the customer has ANY say in what the level of service should be is either stupid, or socialistic.
The operator must find ways to deliver it in an economical manner. Reducing the service level is not an option.
Whilst I agree that the operator should deliver the service in an economical manner, there is no reason why it has to be a reliable or attractive service, if there is no potential in hell for the service even to make a modest return.
To argue that in a loss-making business that the customer has ANY say in what the level of service should be is either stupid, or socialistic...there is no reason why it has to be a reliable or attractive service, if there is no potential in hell for the service even to make a modest return.
There is at least one very good reason why the customer should have a say. Losses are not financed up by the bond or equity markets. The losses are financed by the public in the form of increased taxes. The transit operators must convince the public that they are getting value for these taxes. Otherwise, the public will tire of the exercise. The transit operator employees and management will then be unemployed.
There is at least one very good reason why the customer should have a say....The transit operators must convince the public that they are getting value for these taxes. Otherwise, the public will tire of the exercise. The transit operator employees and management will then be unemployed.
You know, I'm bored with this thread. You're obviously incapable of thinking in any model other than the currently accepted model in the society. My point was that there is absolutely no reason why public services should be accountable to the public. Although the end result may be that there are no public services, I am proposing that the absense of public services may indeed be an alternative if the public so chooses. I'm not advocating the concept of having no public services, I am merely stating that it is an alternative. In my experience, public has never had a say in any public services, which is why I oppose public services in general.
You're too left wing to think straight.
My point was that there is absolutely no reason why public services should be accountable to the public. Although the end result may be that there are no public services...
You're too left wing to think straight.
I thought the idea that each individual pursues his own self interest, i.e. public employees' continued employment, came right out of "Wealth of Nations". Was Adam Smith a closet commie? :-)
Please let me step between you two gentlemen for a minute. I find that on this point - I'm in the enviable position of disagreeing with both of you.
Stephen, I disagree with you because i think for the average subway rider, it's not that they are indifferent about couplers or link-bars, I simply do not think that the average rider knows there are linkbars. For most people, everything the know about operating a mass transit system comes from the circle of track that was in use for the 2 weeks after christmas - under the tree. In reality, most people have no clue about TPH, spare factors or MDBF. Most people have no idea that the subway lines have schedules.
Lexcie, I disagree with you because the mission of any publicly funded mass transit system should be to meet the needs of the public that supports it. Whether you like it or not, quality is decided by the consumer.
In reality, most people have no clue about TPH, spare factors or MDBF.
I believe that the TA's average customer has an inutitive feel for tph, and load factor. I base this on the assumption that people know, if they are sitting or standing. Suppose that the load level for IRT trains leaving the Bronx is 0.6 with 30 tph operation and the TA decides to reduce this to 3 minute headways. Currently there are
0.6 x 110 = 66 people in each car.
There are 44 seats in each car (Redbirds + R62's), so each passenger has a 67% chance of getting a seat.
Consider the reduced service. Assuming that no passengers are lost, this means that each train will have a load level of
0.6 x 30/20 = 0.9. There will be 99 people in each car. This means that each person will have only a 44% chance of getting a seat.
It think that the average passenger cars will notice if his chance of getting a seat decreases for 2 times out of three to less than half. He may not know the calculations, but he has an intuitive feeling that service is worse.
Most people have no idea that the subway lines have schedules.
The TA has done their best to foster this misconception by printing imprecise schedules. :-)
Generally I agree that linked sets are a bad idea, because they
take away options. I am willing to pay a little more for
flexibility and having a way out of a trouble situation.
For the same reason, I get annoyed when switches get removed
in the name of simplification and cost savings.
However, from a costing perspective, the linking probably made
sense. If you have a b/o car in the middle of a train, what
is the cost to drill it into the shop, both the direct costs of
the yard motorman's time plus the indirect administrative and
supervisory costs? What is the cost of having to inspect and
maintain additional couplers, master controllers, brake valves, etc?
There are reliability gains too from eliminating those components,
although they probably don't balance out the loss from linking
(as you said, the probability of any one car being out of
service when it is in a linked set is 4 or 5 times higher than
if it were single, all other factors being equal).
So, the reliability factor is somewhere between 1 and 4 (for 4 car
links) times worse than single cars. Does it matter? If the
probability of failure is sufficiently low, and the mean time to
repair is sufficiently brief, then the expected number of cars
OOS will be well under the spare factor. If this were the 1970s,
linking would be out of the question....you'd never make rush
hour service.
If the probability of failure is sufficiently low, and the mean time to repair is sufficiently brief, then the expected number of cars
OOS will be well under the spare factor. If this were the 1970s, linking would be out of the question....you'd never make rush hour service.
We still have not gotten back to the early 1970's rush hour service levels. :-)
You mean scheduled service levels or typical delivered
service levels? Doesn't matter if you say you are going
to run 40 tph if 5 of them are ABD.
The R68s and R68As are only $1 billion. The R142s and R142As are $1.2 billion. Not sure about the R62s and R62As.
"The other rule is that you pay more for the lack of flexibility."
Counterbalanced by the third rule: "You pay the most for flexibility which is not directly required by your mission"
In the linking of the R-68s and R-68As into 4-car units there were some tangible savings. Primarily, the savings are in maintanance. As you suggested, draftgear between linked cars requires less maintenance. Since each car had 2 drriving ends, 6 or 8 brake valves, master controllers and door controls were removed as they were no longer necessary. One D-4 compressor was removed from each link. Most importantly, where 12 car inspectors were previously required to inspect 4 single cars, 10 are now used to inspect the 4-car link. The result is clearly maintenance savings in material, time and man-power.
All of the savings are not in maintenance, however. Formerly, with single car units, the yard dispatcher had to take time to insure that the transverse cabs were at the operating positions when making up trains for service. This required many yard moves. With the linking of the cars, though, every open end is a transverse cab - hence less yard moves and less yard motormen are required for drilling & swinging cars.
Formerly, with single car units, the yard dispatcher had to take time to insure that the transverse cabs were at the operating positions when making up trains for service. This required many yard moves. With the linking of the cars, though, every open end is a transverse cab - hence less yard moves and less yard motormen are required for drilling & swinging cars.
I would argue that this is more a function of a poorly designed single unit car than an advantage of linked vs. single units. If one were to design a single unit, then it should be a true symmetrical double ender. The R68's were not. The problem you state would not have occurred on any of the previous single units that the NYCTA used.
I would argue that this is more a function of a poorly designed single unit car than an advantage of linked vs. single units....true symmetrical double ender.
Well, here's my two cents -- very often, for one reason or another, cars cannot be truly symmetrical. For example, Amtrak Cafe Cars have a "nice" end and an "annoying" end through which you have to navigate a corridor before you reach the hostess. Through the nice end, the hostess is virtually in your face as soon as you enter the car. The idea is that the "nice" end should face first/business class accommodation, and the "annoying" end should face coach class. This probably required turning and wyeing at the yard, and the yard crews probably hate doing it.
Now the solution to that problem: we make a trainset in a fixed consist. On high density routes such as the NEC (and this applies to most of NYC subway), you hardly ever need to reduce the length of the train, anyway. Many maintenance personnel would argue that fixed trainsets do not perform well because if one coach goes broke, you have to pull the whole train out of service. However the flip side of the coin is, not only are trainsets less likely to encounter the sort of trouble individual units encounter when joining up, there is also more incentive to do preventative maintenance on the trainsets (because the result of deferring maintenance is more severe) -- i.e. to find faults before they develop to the extent that a train has to be taken out of service.
Well, at least that's what I think. But I am open to suggestions and criticism.
Lexcie
>>>....brand new R68A "D" train....<<
I remember that well, one of the cars was 5111. The picture was on the front page of the Post. Water 2/3 of the way up the windows IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Wanamaker Washout, circa July 1956. That 6 train was pulling into Astor Place when the trackbed just ahead dropped four feet. The train was all the way into the station, although short of the marker, so the conductor was able to open up and discharge the passengers. Afterwards, the first car became partially submerged as more trackbed gave way. It was extricated a day or so later, and through a Herculean effort, service was restored on the repaired trackways in less than a month.
. . . on the enunciator panels of a new NCS car yesterday, I couldn't help wondering whether NJT took the cars out for a road test before opening day.
Then there was this little problem with popping circuit breakers. It seems that half of them were in the empty cab, requiring someone to hike back and forth to reset them.
And why, pray tell, weren't all of the doors working.
You should have seen all of the running and screaming NJT types on the platform when one of the cars stopped a few feet short of the mark at Franklin Ave., leaving one of its doors next to the wheelchair ramp instead of the platform.
As has been reported elsewhere, one car died twice and was taken OOS. Need to keep an eye out for #113.
Someone should have told NJT that you only get to make one first impression.
You have to give them credit though for being extra careful. The external cameras were left on all the time, even when the cars were in motion; and each operator had someone with him/her in the cab whose sole job, other than resetting circuit breakers, was to open the outside cab door and lean out to watch as the doors closed to make sure no one got caught in the doors.
BTW, the loop at Franklin Ave. is entirely gone. They carted it away yesterday on the back of a flatbed.
Well, it wasnt really a system that could have been tested in advance.
The shift to all new platforms, the removal of the loops etc.
And oh yeah..... I'll bet you these things run on different electrical specifications, don't they! PCCs were 600v DC, Yes?
What do these run on, 7000v AC or more for a wild ass guess.
Elias
Why not test it in advance? The problems with the cars could have been detected in advance. The platform mods don't effect the cars' electrical systems. Ditto, removal of the Franklin loop.
I bet that the electrical specs are the same.
7456-60 and 7476-80 are now doing road simulations, so I'd take an educated guess this is the next set to see service on the 6, putting more nails in the Redbird Coffin.
A side note to South Ferry, Car 7477 is roaming the rails once again.
-Stef
6646-50 are in service with 6421-25, as of this week.
6356-60 and 6536-40 are road testing together. They just came uptown doing the usual rounds of road simulation.
How come they are mixing up the car numbers?
The R-142s and R-142As are arranged in five-car sets, not ten-car sets. There's no reason in the world why all ten cars have to be consecutively numbered, nor is there any reason for anyone to expect that they would have stayed consecutively numbered forever.
David
"There's no reason in the world why all ten cars have to be consecutively numbered"
david... i thought that having 10 car trains consecutively numbered would make it easier to scrap them in an "oldest first" order in about 3 years, when they are expected to wear out...
gee, a little scrolling text and i'm feeling a lot better about things
although i'm afraid that this might get the 142 haters all heated up
and even worse, it will get the knee jerk new technology people giving lectures about progress
i can hardly contain myself at the thought of that happening...
Stirring the pot again, eh? I'd put you over my knee and spank you ... but I'm afraid you'd like it ... Glad to see ya downtown, bro! :)
Very Creative!
because half are at 207 and 180 because of break problems and the other part is in service. they are coupled in 5 cars sets
Have you noticed 6351-6355 on the road, YET???
They should have been ready this week unless there were more problems.
Keep an eye out!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Rode 6354 today. 6351-55 are in service. Hooked up to 6661-65. That's right, 6665 is an active car once again!
R142#2 beat me to it! Gosh.....
That's another set in service. Did someone say that 6646-50 crapped out yesterday? It's on the road again.
So 6351-55 and 6661-65 are in service. Next in should be 6356-60 and 6536-40, unless the train gets broken up.
-Stef
well they fix the motors pretty fast
r142man
Pardon me if I seam a little slow,but are these R142 cars the ones that were pulled from service for various problems,[?]or are they new cars just being delievered?
Wow, they must have fixed 6646 up pretty quicky for ot to be back in service just two days after being taken out.
its true
MetroTV is working on a new show called "Finder's Keepers." It's all about New York collectors and their collections. We are looking for collectors of subway and/or bus memorabilia. If you are a collector and would like to be on our show, please email me at dmuradian@metro.tv.
Thanks,
Dina Muradian
MetroTV
Why not contact heypaul? He has an honest to God subway car Train Operator's cab in his apartment.
Or Thurston, who is an avid MetroCard collector.
BMTman
doug... dina called me on tuesday... i suggested some people for her to call, as well as posting a message here... i think you and thurston ought to e-mail her...
Been there, done that.
Dina,
I throughly enjoy the tv show "subway Q&A" Are more episodes in the works? They should try to get on one of the new trains...the R142 (which can be found on the #2 and soon the #5) and the R142A (which is on the #6) and ask the question, "so what do you think of the new trains? -Nick
They just did a nice item about the tracks to the Waldorf for FDR.
Maybe they'll find the Astor tunnels and 76th St. Station?
avid
I read that MetroNorth is moving forward with adding a third track on the Harlem Line. But what I read only mentioned the area from Mount Vernon to Crestwood Station. I thought the third track would go at least to North White Plains.
Is the third track already there above Crestwood? Of did the NIMBY's stop the northern half?
They should electrify and add a second track between Brewster North and Wassaic. This way they could have through service, without having to use a diesel. And, as far as NIMBY is concerned, I don't think enough people live up that far to complain. I'd LOVE a train going through my back yard.
That ROW does not have the room in some locations for a third track, but there are places for even four tracks at others. I can see the third track being used to allow trains to pass slower ones while traveling during peak times, but for those locations where only two tracks can exist, some wrong main running will have to be performed.
Did anyone else read the Daily News today? A judge is blocking the TA from getting rid of the token clerks it wished to eliminate this year. The judge said there would have to be a trial, and he wanted to hear from the MTA, the TA's parent company. Good for this judge. I think he made the right call.
Tony
All that is happening is delaying the inevitable. The TA will now lengthen the list of booths to close. The public hearings will support the idea of keeping the booths open, yet when it comes to the MTA board for a vote, they will vote to close them all. This is because they vote the way the MTA chairman tells them how to vote. The MTA board is simply a rubber stamp. If a board member does not vote the way he/she is told, that person will not be reappointed when his/her term expires. It may take time for the TA/MTA to get its' own way, but they eventually do.
I really don't understand the arguments the TWU makes. It is heartwrenching to think that all these blind and wheelchair people will be so inconvenienced but think a second.
How are these people in wheelchairs getting into these stations when only a handful have access.
As for blind people, they are mobile and can walk to the 24/7 entrance a block away just like the rest of us.
The TA will redesign the IND on the hit list stations just like they did in the 80's to cut booths.
Either that or my fear, is they will provoke a strike and then get everything.
The MTA/TA doesn't care about service issues, because they aren't accountable to you & me ... that's the problem with it being a State run organization.
Folks like to beat up on nycDOT, because they CAN.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for giving the blind community its props. We appreciate it. As far as wheelchairs are concerned, I've actually only seen one person in a wheelchair on the subway. The problem is, even if the station you're getting on at is acessible, most likely the one you're getting of at is not. This can be a real problem. I think most wheelchair customers use paratransit. Instead of automation, why doesn't the TA vow to have all stations acessible in 30 years?
For one thing, not all stations can be made accessible. At the 36th Street station on Fourth Avenue in Brooklyn, for example, an ADA project was shelved about ten years ago because the shafts for the elevators between the mezzanine and the platforms would have extended into the street, and (I don't believe) the platforms are wide enough for ADA-compliant ramps (which would have to twist around themselves because stretching them lengthwise would take up too much platform space).
NYCT has been making "key stations" (and several non-"key stations") accessible. In addition, all NYCT buses are accessible.
As for automation, that's not a stated NYCT goal. CBTC (Communication-Based Train Control) is not Automatic Train Operation, though it would certainly allow for ATO. L trains (the pilot project) are to be operated by one person, in the front of the train.
David
The MTA/TA does not always get its way.
Perfect example - The Franklin Shuttle. The TA wanted to shut it down permanently and we all know how that went. With enough political and community pressure they back down.
Also they wanted to make 125th on the 1/9 a skipped stop, but the community said NO WAY.
Mr t__:^)
Right! Also let's look at Grand Street in 2001:
The NYCT wanted to keep the M in Manhattan during Mid-day, no shuttle bnus to DeKalb, No extended S to West 4. The neighborhood protested and now we have:
Mid-day service on the M to Brooklyn and later service at ngiht to Bay Parkway. The S will go to W4 starting in November and we have the overnight and all-weekend shuttle bus to DeKalb.
Let's look at Court Square/23-Ely: The NYCT said no moving walkways and the community wanted the walkways. The walkways are now being installed!
Dont celebrate out leaving just yet-- I do not think the board will ignore a growing protest from over 130 community groups! I dont think Pataki, who wants to be reelected will ingore a petition with over 1 million names.
Also- there is always the possiblity of more lawsuits.(I have no info on that possibility.)
Just because you may have had some bad experiences with S/As is a reason to punish all S/As!
A roaming S/A will be hard to find in many stations. Imagine you are having breathing problems or are feeling faint--You will roam the station trying to find the S/A who may or may not even be at the station to get help for you when the pay phone or emergency call box or TV Camera was vandalized.
Let's say they have instant response to spray painted cameras--that will take about 15 minutes for them to replace the camera (the drive in traffic with a police escort!.) You'll be dead first!
With the S/A in the booth you know where we are and if you cannot speak or dont speak English we can call for help for you.
What will you do for those using a service animal that cannot go through the HEET--leave them stuck in the HEET until the roaming S/A comes by. How about the mother with a baby stroller-even if they fold the stroller it wont fit through the HEET with the child and mother. How about Bikes-- if we are there we can buzz these people in. If we are not there they will try to enter throught the HEET and get stuck. Sure the police might come by but if you are dealing with a bank robbery or hostage situation or someone stuck in a turnstile I think the police will take the crime first.
I am not opposed to change, but change for the sake of change is bad. Change for false economy is bad-- People do not want empty stations! I work overnight and see many people on the platform right by the booth.
You may say, hire more police- put a cop in every station! Yeah- will you pay a higher fare. I do think the police make more money than we do!
NYC is not Chicao, not Philly (which still has humans in the booth in every station.) We have many cavernous stations with many nooks and crannies, ramps, multiple levels, etc.
Also let's look at Grand Street in 2001:
The NYCT wanted to keep the M in Manhattan during Mid-day, no shuttle bnus to DeKalb, No extended S to West 4. The neighborhood protested and now we have:
Mid-day service on the M to Brooklyn and later service at ngiht to Bay Parkway. The S will go to W4 starting in November and we have the overnight and all-weekend shuttle bus to DeKalb.
I'd just love to know what it costs to transport each passenger on that shuttle bus. It's no doubt an absurdly high amount.
A roaming S/A will be hard to find in many stations. Imagine you are having breathing problems or are feeling faint--You will roam the station trying to find the S/A who may or may not even be at the station to get help for you when the pay phone or emergency call box or TV Camera was vandalized.
Let's say they have instant response to spray painted cameras--that will take about 15 minutes for them to replace the camera (the drive in traffic with a police escort!.) You'll be dead first!
(sniffs)
Hold on, there's this really awful smell ... yecch, it smells like something dead ... what in the world can it be?
Aha! That's it! I'm smelling the rotting corpses of people who've died in PATH stations because the stations are unstaffed!
PATH is a smaller system and they dont have cavernous stations.
PATH has complex stations.
World Trade Center, 33rd Street, Journal Square, Newark, Exchange Place.
As for these "cavernous" stations, why are the agents posted in a bullet proof booth at the entrance, instead of somewhere in the middle of all these caverns? So they can actually protect all of these people dying in the caverns.
[If a board member does not vote the way he/she is told, that person will not be reappointed when his/her term expires.]
Not true for all of the board members, e.g. the ones appointed by the Mayor. They once put a stop to a farebox order because of a mfg. price increase ... they were right the increase was unreasonble, but we realy need the extra boxes, so ultimatley they let it go through.
Mr t__:^)
MTA Board members are appointed by the Governor and approved by the State Legislature. The Mayor gets to choose people to fill four positions, but it's up to the State elected officials to approve them.
David
Don't the other 7 counties of the MTA district get to appoint a member each?
From page 41 of the 2000 MTA Annual Report (the page on which the comprehensive annual financial report begins):
"A public benefit corporation chartered by the New York State Legislature in 1965, the MTA is governed by a 17-member Board*. Members are nominated by the Governor, with some recommended by New York City's Mayor, and the county executives of Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Dutchess, Orange, Rockland, and Putnam counties, with the members representing the latter four casting one collective vote. The Board also has six rotating non-voting seats held by representatives of organized labor and the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee (PCAC), which serves as a voice for users of MTA transit and commuter facilities. All Board members are confirmed by the New York State Senate.
"*The current board is made up of 17 voting members and six nonvoting members."
David
She.
I must continue to ask the same Very Stupid Question: What about PATH?
PATH's stations, as far as I know, have ALWAYS been completely UNSTAFFED, with NO ill effects. Yet the politicians, the media, and fellow SubTalkers have refused to acknowledge that. Even Transit doesn't mention PATH as a precedent for de-staffing some fare control areas.
"PATH's stations, as far as I know, have ALWAYS been completely UNSTAFFED, "
But then, you are only a young whippersnaper!
*I* remember when they *ALL* had token booths.
And I even remember what their token looked like!
Elias
And, I remember when they had conductors that collected tickets for passage between JSQ and Newark.
There's staff in the stations every morning. No booth, to be sure, but plenty of people in the fare area and RCI types on the platforms.
[There's staff in the stations every morning. No booth, to be sure, but plenty of people in the fare area and RCI types on the platforms.]
Okay, I concede. However, my main points remain:
1. If PATH can have staff face-to-face with passengers instead of locked inside a box, why can't NYCT?
2. Why have the media, the politicians, and the Straphangers Campaign deliberately ignored PATH's non-booth operation, as well as unstaffed or minimally staffed (and non-booth) stations in other cities?
I must repeat my previous Very Stupid Questions, as nobody has fully addressed them:
1. If PATH can have staff interact face-to-face with passengers instead of being locked inside a box, why can't NYC Transit?
2. Why have the media, the politicians, and the Straphangers Campaign deliberately ignored PATH's non-booth operation, as well as non-booth (unstaffed or minimally staffed) stations in other U.S. cities?
1- PATH has no person late at night and weekends.
2- PATH is a smaller system. Even stations such as WTC, JSQ (Journal Square) are no way as cavernous as the liek sof Broadway/Nassau-Fulton, Times Square Complex, Canal Street Complex, etc.
We are aware of cities such as Chicago but their systems are not as complex as ours. You can not compare Apples and Oranges. What works elsewhere does not always work in NYC.
This AM I was at Rockaway Parkway on the L. You should have seen the very long line waiting for the bank to open. Yes, the bank had an available ATM. New Yorkers like their freedom of choice-- They do want to be told "You must do this..."
There may be a long line at the booth and the end of the line is inmpatient. I inform the line that I have 3 machines with no waiting anmd no one moves. I have been told by the first in line "I do not use the [expletive deleted] machine". Sometimes the machines will not take bills and I am entering the station. I tell them "You can use your ATM or credit card" and I get "I dont have a bank account."
Replacing us will force them to use the MetroCard. NYC wants their choice to use the token. I get many people buying 20-30 tokens. I tell them "I'll be glad to sell you the tokens but if you buy a MetroCard you'll get free rides". They then tell me "I dont use that [expletive deleted]."
To my critics, I know you'll object, but there is still freedom of speech and press[written word] or do you favor the Thought Police. I still have the right to my opinions!
Many times I explain that due to a G.O. there is no L train and they have to take the shuttle bus. I am hastily corrected with "You cant tell me what to do..." I respond with "OK- the next L train is Monday AM (or whenever.) They then tell me "OK, I'll wait!" I respond with :"OK, enjoy your wait!"
[We are aware of cities such as Chicago but their systems are not as complex as ours. You can not compare Apples and Oranges. What works elsewhere does not always work in NYC....
Replacing us will force them to use the MetroCard. NYC wants their choice to use the token. I get many people buying 20-30 tokens. I tell them "I'll be glad to sell you the tokens but if you buy a MetroCard you'll get free rides". They then tell me "I dont use that [expletive deleted]."]
Yes, New Yorkers like to have their choices (and their expletives).
However, I'm bothered by the pervasive attitude that NYC is so unique that what works elsewhere couldn't possibly have any relevance here. It's self-centered at best, and isolationist at best.
There may be a long line at the booth and the end of the line is inmpatient. I inform the line that I have 3 machines with no waiting anmd no one moves. I have been told by the first in line "I do not use the [expletive deleted] machine".
Well then, they don't have to ride the [expletive deleted] subway, do they?
Replacing us will force them to use the MetroCard. NYC wants their choice to use the token. I get many people buying 20-30 tokens. I tell them "I'll be glad to sell you the tokens but if you buy a MetroCard you'll get free rides". They then tell me "I dont use that [expletive deleted]."
Guess some people don't realize that we're in the 21st Century. Why cater to morons like that?
Guess some people don't realize that we're in the 21st Century. Why cater to morons like that?
That's not fair, people should have their choices.
From this point forward, 10% Metrocard bonuses will only be offered at a vending machine, the Internet, or any other third-party vendor. Booth purchases will be subject to a 10% penalty (Buy 10 rides, get the 10th one taken away free!), Unlimited ride cards of any kind will not be sold at the booth.
The price deducted from a pay-per-ride card will remain $1.50, however the price of a token will rise to $2.50.
You see, this way people can keep their [expletive deleted] choice, but those of us with working brains won't have to pay for their decisions.
Sometimes when I work at a subway station while a G.O. is going on, people will ask me when is the next train. I take a quick glance at my watch and say something like "...about 15-20 hours." Then I point to a sign in the window in front of them that tells all about the G.O.
I just love to watch some people who'll jump over a closed turnstile during a G.O.. With Red lights on. With Red tape all over it. With Masking tape over the coin slot and the card reader. With Posters on every turnstile with certain parts outlined. Then they'll come out and ask me about 15-20 minutes later, "Where is the next train?" then curse me out because it's MY fault I didn't tell them there is no service in the first place.
As you say, the subway has many cavernous passages. They are invisible from the S/A's booth by the entrance. They would be visible to security cameras, and security cameras could be monitored anywhere. Security cameras could also be installed on the platforms, where passengers spend most of their time in the station (especially at night, when headways are long).
But, in case you've forgotten, the issue currently on the table is specifically the part-time booths. The part-time booths are closed at night, and in most cases the associated exits are closed as well. Remove the booth and install a HEET and, voilà, some passengers can spend less time on the scary platform, less time in the scary passageways, less time on the scary street. (Anyone who, for whatever reason, prefers not to use the formerly part-time exit can still use the attended one.) That sounds like a clear improvement in terms of both safety and convenience. Am I wrong?
As for freedom of choice -- my choice is to not pay my fare at all. Does the TA provide that choice? (It would probably save the TA some money over its current choices at some low-volume stations.)
As for freedom of choice -- my choice is to not pay my fare at all. Does the TA provide that choice? (It would probably save the TA some money over its current choices at some low-volume stations.)
Your point is something that never occurred to me before. There probably are some stations at which the staffing costs exceed the revenues. Bowery, for sure, and probably a couple of A line stations in the Rockaways.
That would be an excellent way for the TA to boost ridership at low-volume stations.
Come to think of it, it might work. Take the Bowery: it's in a useful location and it's one stop away from one of the most important transfers in the system, yet it's barely used. The TA could announce that, for two weeks, MetroCard entry at the Bowery would be half-price. People would go out of their way to use the cheap station. Some would find that the cheap station is actually more convenient than what they had been using previously, and they'd continue to use it even after the fare reverts to normal.
At night? Try lots of F and D stations, A stations along Fulton. Unless there are bars or clubs lots of outer boro stations are dead at night.
AND with people buying monthly/weekly/funpass metrocards they are paid up anyway.
Just like master towers, make master station agent booths put 3 agents there and let them run 3 stations each from 8pm to 4 am using cameras and speaker phones. There would be staffing for comforts and lunch relief and if they are smart they will have at least one foreign language speaker so that one Spanish speaker could now cover 9 booths.
As for the handicapped go to 34th and 6th they have a gate type metro card machine so if you have a wheelchair, stroller or service animal you can get in without needing an agent.
HEETs- will lead to crime and increased fare beating due to doubles and triples. Homeless will gather there and hit those entering/exiting for money. They are also magnets for crime as admitted to by NYCT when the area tried to have HEETs installed at one current part-time booth location.
An autogate (the card activated gate) if left unattended will be used by many people- they wait for someone who activates the gate and then grab the gate and then they enter free and jam the gate so it cant latch. Autogates are often broken by those who have carriages and try to use their regular MetroCard to activate the gate. The autogate is only for those customers with an AFAS MetroCard (Ada Fare Access System) which is c acustomer using a wheelchair to aid in mobility.
I remember when busy stations had 2 or 3 S/As in the booth selling cards. While on paper your idea of Master S/As sounds good, it would quickly become 1 S/A per 2-3 or more stations with poorly maintained cameras.
But "every morning" isn't when there's a serious concern about crime. Is there staff in the stations late at night?
No! and that is why I dont ride PATH anymore late at night.
I'd just like to share with you all that I'll be attending Hofstra University beginning Saturday. So when I'm not studying or doing something in the theater, I'll most likely be hanging around town getting to know the subway I've visited only a few times a little better.
doing something in the theater
So are you an actor, stage manager, designer or TECHIE?
Hehehe....
Watch out for the crazies on the Hempstead dragstrip, (oops, I mean turnpike ;) Oh yeah, and us scrapy bikers on our way to Rolling Thunder Cycles. And the drunk guy by the OTB in downtown. Wait, drunk guy by the OTB? Which one?
Avoid old Country Road at all costs. Seriously :|
I've found that out for sure. I took a walk to Uniondale (right across Earl Ovington Blvd) and saw Mustangs and Ninja cycles racing down the Turnpike. The area around Hofstra is not ped friendly unless you're on campus grounds.
I went to that massive Roosevelt Field Mall. I heard it used to be a racetrack.
And what's wrong with Old Country Road?
Actually Roosevelt Field used to be an airport (Charles Lindbergh's famous flight took off from there). The shopping area just east of there used to be Roosevelt Raceway.
We got bikers here on the north shore as well, racing down my street.
They would have no trouble dusting a Hippo.
I too said so long to Philly two weeks ago. SEPTA's fare hike drove me out. Now Brooklyn is home. 2, 3, or Q for me.
Time to change your handle!
How's brooklynguy? Or formerlyphillyguy?
Or Phil E. Guy, then it sounds like a real name.
Enjoy Hempstead, you're at the end of two LIRR lines so you'll always get a seat and an easy alternative if gremlins take out one line. Just remember which station you parked at.
The R143 cars that have been sighted on the Sea Beach line were gone when I passed by today. The only explanation I can think of is that Goblins stole during the night knowing that I was going to look for it. So where're the R143s hiding now?
Also, saw a few redbirds sitting in Coney Yard, but I could only see 2 of the car numbers, 9386 & 9387. It was signed as a 7.
Did you check the CI Yard, the R143's were sitting pretty close (but on it's own track) to the lead track to the Sea Beach. I was by there today and I saw the redbirds, 2 were Flushing birds as you said and 2 were Pelham birds.
I was sitting at a window seat (of cource!) on the side closest to the express tracks. I just happened to glance over to look at the yard and see the redbirds. Tomorrow I'll ride over there again and take a better look for the R143s.
Did you check inside all the barn tracks at CIYD? Did you check inside all the barn tracks at ENYD? Did you check inside all the barn tracks at Pitkin Yd? Do you think they were taken off TA property? In due time they will be testing somewhere, in due time you can ride them. Relax!!!!!!!!!!
I saw then in the barn, I don't know the Track number. It was one the ones with exit on both sides. Thay were in there in Sunday. I worked was in the yard today(Tuesday) but I was sent oup the Parson E to fast to see if they were still there.
Robert
Not goblins. Gnomes.
Dan
I saw and photographed the R143's on 4 track at the 18th Avenue (N) station.
The pictures will be up as soon as I finish the roll. (I have about 17 shots remaining.)
You should make it BIG. Like that infamous R142 side profile shot you have.
I took a shot of 8101 suitable for putting as the train.bmp file for that BVE train of R143's you did.
Anyway, back when I first encountered the R142 cars, I developed the film and ordered prints and a CD. The pictures on the CD measured 1536x1024 pixels. When I put the pictures on the web, they came straight from the CD. Now, I resize them to 600x400 (except for TP27, which are 922x614.
I now order each roll of film with a CD.
I see I see. E-mail me. Also, I stated something very radical. Not sure if anyone else did it but I'm making a short flight in BVE with an MD-11 plane. Atleast the dimensions and weights are of an MD-11. Yet to change the cab. It's easier to make than a subway route.
What file format do you get on the CDs?
If it's JPEG, you may want to rethink your strategy. Each time a JPEG is modified (even resized!) and saved, quality drops.
I've been saving my photos on CD in PNG format. Only after I've resized and edited to my heart's content do I convert to JPEG. Besides, those photo CD's are a ripoff.
>>> Each time a JPEG is modified (even resized!) and saved, quality drops. <<<
Really! I didn't know that. You mean sort of like every time you
re-record a VCR tape? Thanks for the info.
Peace,
ANDEE
Correct. Any "important" image I create gets saved at 720 dpi or higher resolution in Photoshop on a spare hard drive and then reduced to the desired size and quality 72 dpi format jpg file (there are several different levels of jpg compression).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lately I've been using the JPEG Wizard to convert to JPEG. It allows for variable compression by region. If the point of my image is, say, a mosaic, I can keep the tiles relatively crisp while still allowing the background to blur somewhat to keep file size down.
See examples at Dyckman Street (48k for a 1000 × 399 image) and Lorimer Street (58k for a 900 × 698 image). (This also ensures that the copyright statement remains legible.)
OK, what's a JPEG Wizard? I'm using a somewhat minimized version of Photoshop so I don't have all of its capabilities (hey, it came free with my scanner...).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
JPEG Wizard
Save your files in a standard lossless format (like TIFF or PNG) and use JPEG Wizard to convert them to JPEGs.
Thanks for the link... unfortunately, it appears that it isn't supported for Mac...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes. JPEG is a so-called "lossy" compression scheme, meaning that it loses information in the compression.
See the JPEG FAQ.
I saw and photographed the R143's on 4 track at the 18th Avenue (N) station this afternoon around 1:00.
The pictures will be up as soon as I finish the roll. (I have about 17 shots remaining.)
Anybody know what each line had as far as subway car assignments when the Manhattan Bridge had only Broadway Line traffic from 1985 to 1987 on the B,D,F,G,M,N,Q and R lines? I do know that the D had R-42's and the Q had a mixture back then. Also which line was the first to receive both the R-68 and R-68A's back then?
IIRC:
B: R27, R30, R40 SLANT
D: R40M, R42, R68
F: R46, R68
G: R46 (Unsure)
M: R27, R30, R40M, R42
N: (Until 1987: R32, R46. After 1987: R32, R68)
Q: R68
R: (Until 1987: R32. After 1987: R46)
IIRC, the first line to get the R68s was the F.
The first line to get R68's was the D just before the MannyB was closed. When it was, the cars were kept on the Brooklyn end. When the D was filled up, a few went to the Q because the express passengers were crybabies. The ones on the Q ran on the N on weekends till there were enough to let the N keep them. The F had a few R68's for short period of time. The uptown D had the unrebuilt R40 mods & R42. The uptown D got the first of the R68A's. The R68A's did not make a revenue appearance in Brooklyn until the Sixth Ave, side was reopened.
To you guys though, the Q did have R-32's and R-40's also, and I do have pictures of it. This was the first though that I heard the 68's being on the F, and I do thank you for your answers. If you do have any further information please fill me in thanks. One more question though I must ask, was it in 1987 that the Q received them, and did that line take them from the F's? Also, did the D have R-46's also in the late 80's as well?
By the late 80s, the R-46s were the exclusive domain of Jamaica Yard and ran on the routes associated with the Queens line: E, F, G, and R after it swapped terminals with the N.
To Steve, Thanks.
The "D" has not had any R-44 or 46 cars on that line since about 1980. People that lived in the houses along the Brighton Lone complained that the wheels made the tracks rattle. Tony
Quite correct. The R-44s left the D shortly after a violent derailment in January 1981 at Kings Highway that almost dumped a train into some backyards. Since then, I know of no R-44 trains in revenue service on this line (they've been on the A), and only the occasional R-46 (reroute or gap train).
David
Ah! That is why it was never on the Brighton Line all of this time. I am wondering if the TA will decide to put them there in the future, most likely not, but you never know.
The "G" was using R32 with beige interior walls and dark blue interior doors (pre-GOH) in the mid to late 80s
wayne
Here is the Assignment Summary dated September 8, 1986:
Note: CAP=Graffiti-Free Equipment.
A: R-38, R-44
B (168 St.): R-32, R-40M/42
B (S Grand Shuttle): R-27, occasional R-32
K: R-32, R-40M/42
C: Non-CAP R-10, Green CAP R-10, R-38
H: Non-CAP R-10, R-38, occasional Green CAP R-10
D (205 Street): R-32, R-40M/42
E: CAP R-46
F: CAP R-46
G: R-32, some CAP R-32
JFK: CAP R-46
B (Coney Island): R-40, some R-27/30 & R-32, some R-40M/42
D (coney Island): R-40, R-40M/42, CAP R-68, occasional Non-CAP R-32
J: R-27/30, Red CAP (GE) R-30, Non-CAP R-42, CAP R-42
(including the "Lemon Train", figure THAT one out8-)
L: R-27/30, Red CAP (GE) R-30, Non-CAP & CAP R-42
M/R Metro Ave.: R-27/30, occasional R-32, R-16 (M only).
N: CAP R-32, CAP R-46
Q: R-32, occasional R-40, R-40M/42
R: R-27/30, R-32, R-40, some R-40M/42
S (Franklin Shuttle): R-27/30
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
George:
Do you have assignments for any other dates?
Thanks
Al
Yes.
Up to 1990. I have to research the rest but the parts are available.
They are not numerically collected because the R-32 assignments have been scattered all over the place.
Not neat & tidy like IRT.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks, when you et a moment, please post or email them to me.
Al
And if you can get anything after 1990, like up to 1995, which I could not find please send it to me also, even though the 80's (the end of the graffiti era) is my main interest.
Thanks
Neil Feldman
NNEILEF@AOL.COM
Last weekend I was in San Francisco with some spare time, so I did a little rail fanning on the Muni. I made several observations.
The underground stretch of the LRV lines from Embarcadero to the West Portal seems to be every bit as fast as the New York subways. The ride was smooth and the trains had quick acceleration. Since they are powered by overhead lines with pantographs, I did not understand why the lights in the car went out a couple of times. Is it possible that they run on dual voltage, higher in the tunnel and lower on the street? When running in the street, there does not seem to be any preference for the LRVs at traffic light controlled intersections, and their speed was no faster than a bus. At one point, the dedicated ROW came out from between two buildings to cross a secondary street, and there was a four way stop sign for both the trains and the cars (no railroad style cross bucks). Only the doors that are opened by passengers open at each of the stops, and there is a stop request cord in the cars. The operator not only has to check the clearance of the doors before starting up, but once outside of the tunnel he has to collect the cash fares and give transfers. Those with any kind of valid pass can enter at any door, but those paying with cash must enter at the front door of the first car and deposit the fare in the fare box next to the operator, and receive a transfer.
The trains run with very close headways in the tunnel without any wayside signals. On one trip, the M train I was on stopped at a traffic signal just outside the West Portal, and while the light was red for us, an L train pulled in front of us. It stopped and pulled out of the West Portal station just as we got the green light and pulled into the station. Once we left the station, we quickly went up to speed, and part of the time I could see the L train's tail lights, but no other lights. We were definitely far less than a minute behind the L train ahead of us.
I rode a couple of the PCC cars on the F line, and although I saw two Milan cars I did not ride on them. To be truthful, the PCC cars did not really have enough leg room between the seats and therefore were rather uncomfortable. I did ride one PCC from Fisherman's Wharf all the way to Balboa Park, at the end of the J line where it was going OOS at the yard for the day. It was interesting that the PCC with a trolley pole was able to run on the same line as the pantograph equipped LRVs with no problems that I noticed.
At the suggestion of Rob H, I rode the #30 Stockton trolley bus, it was an interesting ride. I also rode the #14 articulated trolley buses along Mission Street. The trolley buses and the conventional buses seemed very similar. When riding at the front of the bus, the sounds of air releasing and compressor sounds and tire whine made them sound alike. The conventional buses did not have loud engine noises. One interesting thing I noted at Van Ness and Chestnut, where the #30 made a right turn and another line went straight was some kind of trolley pole switching device on the wires. About two bus lengths back from the corner, there is a junction where one set of trolley wires continues straight and a second set breaks off from the first one and runs parallel to them until the corner, then goes around the corner. Do the trolley bus operators have some way to punch up the correct lineup from within the bus? Since there was one bus stop at corner for both lines, both the buses going straight and those turning pulled over to the right just before the corner, yet the trolley poles always went to the correct set of wires, so I do not believe it was the positioning of the bus which determined which way the poles went. How was it done?
The fare system is interesting also. There is a POP component to it. Therefore everyone getting on a bus or LRV who pays with cash is given a "transfer" good for two hours, whether or not he intends to take another train or bus. The transfer acts as a receipt and must be carried while riding. The transfers indicate the date issued and by where they are torn off, the expiration time. They do not indicate which line they were issued from, and state they are good for two more rides in any direction, with the second operator collecting the transfer. I could not figure out why that language was there. Since the first transferee operator only looks at the transfer without marking it, how is the second transferee operator to know it has already been used once? As a practical matter, the transfer is a time limited pass which can be used as many times as one wants during the two hours. The Muni operators were very lax about the times of the transfers. At 6:00 P.M. I was issued a transfer which expired at 10:30 P.M. Muni operators did not carefully inspect the transfers for the expiration time either. They tended to glance at the transfers, and wave the person through, A couple of times, just to test how well they checked, I presented my transfer folded so the date was visible, but the expiration time was not. No one asked for a closer look.
When I went there, I expected to buy a $6.00 daily pass for unlimited rides, but the cash fare turned out to be cheaper. The regular cash fare is $1.00. I am eligible for the 35¢ cash fare, so as long as I paid less than 18 fares, I was ahead. Since each fare was good for two hours, 12 fares gave me 24 hours of riding. In fact during the two days I was in San Francisco, I paid less than ten fares, and at no time did any operator ask to see my documentation allowing the discounted fare.
BTW, I got the impression that there are more Chinese operators and supervisors in the Muni than there are in the Hong Kong transit system. I was not judging this by the oriental features, but by the heavy accents which indicated that English was a second language which was not learned in the tender years. These people did not sound like Connie Chung, and at times were difficult to understand. I found all the operators friendly and courteous. They seemed to want to help the passengers rather than just put up with them. It was a great city to visit.
One last thing. This being San Francisco, I saw in the Muni Station at Powell and Market three rest rooms side by side in the mezzanine, marked "Men" "Women" and "Unisex."
Tom
I stopped by San Francisco on my family's trip to Los Angeles. We stayed at the airport, and I studied the BART rail transit system. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time to get to the stations, so we stayed at the airport.
The three bathrooms are not unusual. I've seen this on a Rest Area on I-40 in Arizona. The men and women's lavatories were on the side, and the unisex bathroom was off around the side.
Do you have Juno as an Internet Provider? I can tell by your e-mail address.
Railfan Pete.
The trains run with very close headways in the tunnel without any wayside signals.
Muni specified performance criteria that the CBTC signal system had to meet in order for the vendor to be paid. They can handle 60 tph. Part of this capacity is due to the acceleration and braking rates of the LRV's. (BTW, NYC once used equipment that equalled such performance and would have made 60 tph operation possible. It was srapped in favor of standard equipment with more modest performance.)
NYCTA does not have a performance spec for their CBTC procurement. They've opted for "interoperablilty" and multiple vendors. This permits them to have a uniform product - good, bad or indifferent.
During Peak Hours, the K-L-M Trains if they arrive at West Portal around the same time, couple up and run as 1 train to Downtown, The 1st Train Operator is usually the driver, the others just relax and do nothing. Also they train back to West Portal, then split apart on the K-L-M
You must be handicapped of Senior Citizen to get the 35 cent ride. Am I right?
A suggestion to anyone going to San Francisco for more than one day, they DO have a "Three Day Tourist Pass" for $10.00 that is good on any Muni services including the cable cars.
You canonly buy them at the Muni information booth next to the turntable at Powell & Market....I have heard there are three or four other locations, but haven't found them yet.
When you buy the three day tourist passes, you will be instructed to scratch off three consecutive days with a coin edge (just like your lottery scratchers) and you just show it to operators as you board (or just go in the back doors on POP lines).
What's even a better bargain, just buy a weekly "FastPass" which isn't much more...I think it is $13.00 and is good for one whole Sunday through Saturday week on any Muni services.
As Old Tom said, I've always seen nothing but very courteous drivers on Muni. Sure, their equipment at times looks a little ragged, but look at what it goes through!! If you really want to see a bunchy of crybabies, visit the Usenet group "ba.transportation" To listen to the whiners there you'd think Muni was a third-world jitney operation. Sorry, folks at ba.transportation -- Munis is a World CLASS operation -- right up there with New York City Transit!!!
The Visitors Bureau at HalideePlaza(Powell St Station down below) and at Trans Bay you can buy passes
[What's even a better bargain, just buy a weekly "FastPass" which isn't much more...I think it is $13.00 and is good for one whole Sunday through Saturday week on any Muni services. ]
The MUNI Seven Day "Passport" is $15, and includes the cable cars (which would cost $4.00 for a round trip on each), busses and trolleys/LRVs. BART is a separate system and is not included. As stated above, you scratch off seven dates, starting with the first day of use.
It's the best deal around for all-you-can-ride transit, about $2.14 a day !
Retired PCC Motorman and retired NYCTA yardmaster George E Horn allowed card carrying NY Division members to ride free on his 1000's. Did that several times while going to/from the far east.
Virginia Division - BMT
>>> You canonly buy them at the Muni information booth next to the turntable at Powell & Market....I have heard there are three or four other locations, but haven't found them yet. <<<
The Muni has a Website which lists places to buy passes and the tourist Passports ($10.00 for three days). They also have a phone number you can call to locate the nearest place to purchase them.
>>> If you really want to see a bunchy of crybabies, visit the Usenet group "ba.transportation" To listen to the whiners there you'd think Muni was a third-world jitney operation <<<
There were certainly some things to complain about, although it seemed like it was the tourists (spotted by their $2.00 Muni maps which they were constantly referring to) complaining while the natives took it stoically. On Saturday afternoon, a time when you would not expect a heavy rush hour, I had two occasions on different lines where three buses in a row passed the stop I was at with too full a load to stop. Another time while riding a trolley bus which was following a half block behind another with the same line number, a supervisor spent about three minutes telling the driver that he was behind schedule and had to make up the time. I was really curious as to how he would do that. Overtaking and passing his leader did not seem like a viable option. Although there is a good transit grid to get around the city, I found it to be quite tiring to stand and wait whenever changing from one line to another.
There also seemed to be heavy automobile traffic all over the city even though it was a weekend. The trolley buses and conventional buses seemed to have a San Francisco touch to them. I noticed a lot of faux wood paneling in the interiors. I looked for builder's plates on the equipment, but found none except on one fairly new Neoplan. All the equipment seemed to be running well, without unusual noises, but some of the buses looked a little beat up on the outside. None of them looked familiar to me from buses I have seen in Southern California. All of the LRVs looked good without scratches from vehicles or vandals.
Tom
The MUNI transfer has a dashed line component across the top above the date which should be torn off when you present the transfer to the FIRST driver or agent you use after the initial ride. The remaining portion of the transfer issued on a bus, or streetcar then starts out with the DATE of issue. The top portion being gone is the signal for the SECOND driver or agent to collect the transfer. Or this was the theory prior to the POP (Proof of Purchase) program - now you wouldn't have any proof you had paid the fare, so most drivers don't bother to collect transfers. The POP issued by the fare gates and machines (along the Embarcadero and in the subways) don't have perforations to be torn, in theory they should be collected by the First non-LRV driver and a regular transfer (with the top torn off at the perforation) handed to you. This generally isn't done anymore either.
As for the line switching of the trolley lines, there are switches on board the vehicles which the driver actuates to line up the overhead routes, I have read in some cases it is done by the directional turn signal on the busses, but say on the "F" line, since there aren't any directionals on the PCC's, it has to be done by some other means.
Most of the older single trolley busses are Flyers - I believe there is just one Grumman which is generally used on the #3 Jackson route. The newer ones are also Flyers (including the Artics); The new diesel busses are Orions with some older Flyers, and a smattering of some GMC fishbowls generally used in Emerg serv only.
>>> The MUNI transfer has a dashed line component across the top above the date which should be torn off when you present the transfer to the FIRST driver or agent you use after the initial ride <<<
This may have been the intention of the system, but in practice I never saw it done, and the operators gave only the most cursory glances at the transfers. I also observed passengers (presumably with passes) boarding crowded artics through the back doors as well as the front door. This was also the case on multi car LRVs on the streets (naturally in the Market Street portion everyone had gone through turnstiles so could enter any door). BTW, unlike Los Angeles, I saw no evidence of anyone checking the POP, nor was the fine stated on warning signs (in L.A. up to $250.00).
Thanks for the information on the types of equipment.
Tom
Great trip report.
MUNI must have just changed this over the past year. When I was there in May 2001, only the N Judah streetcar line had POP and POP was coming soon to the other streetcar lines, but not the bus lines.
<< The transfers indicate the date issued and by where they are torn off, the expiration time. They do not indicate which line they were issued from, and state they are good for two more rides in any direction, with the second operator collecting the transfer. I could not figure out why that language was there. Since the first transferee operator only looks at the transfer without marking it,>>
The first operator is in theory supposed to rip of the top portion of the transfer and hand it back to the passenger. The second operator is supposed to take the transfer (how does this work if they have POP I wonder). In reality very few operators rip or take transfers.
<>
Yes, a fine deal for railfans.
<>
That is a great tribute to them considering the state of San Francisco traffic and the high ridership in the city core.
At about 9:45 this evening, I saw an R142 train making simulated stops going uptown at Park Place on the #2 line. The last car was 6540. From the "delivery notes" section of this site, I noticed the delivery date of 8/17 for that set. Looks like they got to testing pretty quickly.
its true
Well, talk about findings. I found an NYCT electric locomotive I haven't seen in EONS. Much to my surprise I finally saw it after several years.
Anyone remember Amtrak #400? New York City Transit leased the unit to them several years ago for work service in the East River Tunnels, and I hadn't seen the unit since. It's formal NYCT Designation OEL06. In short, it sides read 006. If the webmaster is reading this, modify locomotive page to reflect the return of the locomotive.
But to make a long story short, I found Electric Locomotive 006 making it's way up on the West Farms El with an Electric Companion and a Rider Car sandwhiched in between them. Where the heck has this thing been hiding out all of this time?
-Stef
I was just thinking to myself does Peter D have an updated track map of the SBK Yard? If he does he should include it in his book.
-Stef
Guess who was on the D Type trip and had pad and pencil?
Yeah, but guess who ELSE was on the D Type trip and was wearing his hair in braids?
I was able to avoid him, thankfully...
BMTman
hmmmm....lemme guess, DR?....what! no do rag?....foamer personified!
Peace.
ANDEE
Yah he insisted on telling me HOW the LIGHTS would GO OUT when we left 3rd rail. HOW ALL the FANS would stop (got that right) and ALL the lights would slowly dim as they DRAIN the battery.
This is how he told me and the rest of the car in his load FOMAR voice.
I told him he was wrong, needless to say he said I was wrong but the truth held out. The only lights that are on battery on the D-Types are the single bulbs over the door. They shown BRIGHT the whole time we were off third rail tooo >G<.
Can't wait to see Mr. KnowItAll at BERA the end of next month.
Yeah, if only we could convince Mark to leave his pet at home...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I encountered him in the Men's Room at Chambers just before we all boarded. He started ranting about how Friday was a sad day for Newark. Luckily my kidneys weren't too full at that time. I was able to wash my hands and get outta there in a hurry.
I was under the impression that when the new cars were put in place that the two new stations would be open, why are they still not open? Second thing is I know that it is ADA regulations that they be built but why are the two new stations and Branch Brook Park station ADA accessible and no others are, not even Penn. I think I read somewhere about Washington St. having an elevator added but I don't believe that station is among the most used, why would it be added there instead of Broad or Penn which get a good percentage of the traffic.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
There's also the matter of room. Is it too difficult or expensive to add ADA accessibility to a particular station?
Orange is also accessible. There are a lot of things that had to be done to get the new cars in play, the ramps or elevators are next.
Also, Heller was supposed to close. They apparently didn't finish the ramp to Heller Parkway from BBP station.
I looked at the ramp. Beats me what remains to be done.
According to NJT, Heller will close once the new stations open around November of this year. Weekends will still have bus service pending the new stations and signal modernization.
Elevators- Penn is being worked on as is Washington. Patience!
Yes, Heller is remaining open. Whatever for? They could just open the ramp, as far as I can see.
Methinks they want to make sure the number of stations they have only rises, never falls, thus they wait until they can +2 before they can -1.
"I was under the impression that when the new cars were put in place that the two new stations would be open, why are they still not open?"
Removal of loop track (already done) at BBP station will make a connection with the second track possible. They say the two new stations will open this fall.
Bill "Newkirk"
Instead of my annual trip to NYC, my coffers allow me to head to
London this year. Could I ask the readers to let me know what
railfan oppertunities there are?
Ken Jones
p.s. I see this question every once and a while about NYC, could
a section be added to the FAQ reguarding this? I'll collate the
list,
KJ
There was a thread about this about two or three months ago in which I made some suggestions for places to visit. Can't remember who asked the original question.
What to visit depends on interests or how much time. The London Underground only accounts for about half of local rail services in London, the rest are handled by commuter rail services serving 12 main line termini, Croydon Tramlink, and the Docklands Light Rail. Motive power includes diesel multiple units, 25kv overhead AC, and third rail DC electric multiple units amongst others. Most trains have sliding doors, some have slam doors. Some of the architecture is pretty impressive too.
Any particular interests?
It was me, I met up with Simon Billis over there and we spent a Saturday Railfanning, if you don t hear from him on this thread by the weekend e mail me and I will forward it to him
Ken, I would be only too happy to show you round. If you want to make a day of it mail me directly. Perhaps Max would join us ?
Simon
Swindon UK
I gather you got my e mail-Bob
The twelve lines of the "Tube" will keep you busy along with the Docklands light rail and the 'new' Trams in Croydon. Main line passenger railroads are 100% multiple units south of the River Thames,with Locomotive haules trains operating North of the River thus:
Liverpool Street: class 86 and driving trailers
Kings Cross:class 91 and unique class 89 with driving trailers
St Pancras:High speed trains (class 43/HST)
Euston: Class 86,87,90 and driving trailers
Paddington: Class 47 and high speed trains (class 43/HST)
Marylebone: multiple units only.
.
For freight action you should visit Kensington Olympia (District Line)
where the main cross London and also Channel Tunnel freight services pass offering class 92 66 and others.
Regards Rob:^)
.
note the term 'Driving Trailer' is a control coach with driving controls that can control a locomotive at the other end of a train formation thus allowing a fixed set operation-loco stays with coaches all day.
Let Simon take you around, we covered so very much in 7 hours, I don t even remember where we were
Earls Court to Gloucester Road. Gloucester Road to Paddington. Bakerloo to Harrow, main line to Euston, somehow (can't remember) to Jubilee to Canary Wharf. Docklands to Bank. Waterloo and City to Waterloo. Main line to Vauxhall (to watch Eurostars). Back to Waterloo. Waterloo to Clapham Junction. Clapham to East Croydon. Croydon Tram to New Addington and back. The real "Brighton Express" to London Victoria. District Line to Earls Court. Farewell to Bob.
Simon
Swindon UK
Wow, I forgot all I know is that we did a lot
Earl's Court? That was my home station when I visited London in 1978. We stayed at the Chelsea Hotel. If I'm ever there again, the very first thing I plan to do is ride over the original 1863 portion. I kick myself for not thinking about it when I was there.
Give me a call before you come over:)
Simon
Swindon UK
I stayed at the Comfort Inn in Earls Court, small but nice, and very convient
The most unusual thing about the Chelsea, ironically, was a language barrier with some of the staff. It turns out many of them didn't speak English, British or otherwise. IIRC they spoke Polish.
Are there still Class 73s on the Gatwick Express out of Victoria, or have these all been replaced?
Max
Gatwick Express is a rip off, you can take a local that makes only 2 stops and 4 minutes longer and save 8 pounds each way. The name of the train. BRIGHTON EXPRESS
Simon,
Would be delighted to join you assuming schedule permits (am currently moving house). Let me by email know once you have more details.
Sorry it's taken so long to post back (work, work, work).
My interestes are diverse. I'd like to see the very old
and most recent pastrs of the tube. I also understand that a trip on the North London Line can give a great view into what someone said was 'the backyard of London'. My great interest is collecting tube maps, but I do want to put pictures to all those coloured lines on paper.
My understanding is that there are no great elevated interchanges like in NYC (Queensboro Plaza, Atlantic), but I'm interested in seeing anything, well, 'neat'.
Ken Jones
Toronto
One particularly neat thing is to go up on the London Eye ferris wheel, where you will have an excellent view of Waterloo station. As the 'flight' lasts half an hour, you will see quite a lot of rail traffic from a good vantage point. The Eurostar trains use a glass shed, which is eerily transparent at night, revealing the monstrous length of the trains bound for Europe. (Nearest tube: Westminster.)
Regarding elevated interchanges, there is at least an elevated junction of the Thameslink lines above Borough Market. (Nearest tube: London Bridge.) It's very atmospheric there, and it'll be like this for only a few more years, as Thameslink are going to destroy the place to expand and modernise their services. It's the only place in London that reminds me of NYC. (The market itself is a farmers' market, open Friday afternoons and Saturday mornings, and well worth going to just for that.)
Another cool place is Hungerford Bridge. This is an old footbridge that runs alongs alongside the mainline services south of Charing Cross station. It gives you a wheel-level view of the trains thundering by. The footbridge is going to be replaced in a few years by a pair of new footbridges on either side of the railroad bridge, but I don't know wheher they'll be at the same height as the existing bridge. (Nearest tube: Embankment.)
You should take one of the old slam-door trains on a high-speed ride (say, to Woking). I love these carriages, as you can get as much fresh air as you want with the window fully open, you *feel* that you are moving, as you are thrown from side to side, and the parallel access through the slam doors is the most efficient way to get passengers on or off the train. It's also the only remaining train that you can board after it has started to pull out from the platform, although this is obviously dangerous and is part of the reason that they are being replaced by hermetically sealed carriages with centrally locked doors. (The latter have little or no air conditioning, so they are usually stuffy; the wheels have a lot of suspension, so you lose the lively feeling of being tossed around by a fast-moving vehicle, and they're very quiet, so you have to listen to other people's conversations on their mobile 'phones.) You can still take these trains out of Waterloo. (For example, you could take a round trip: go on the SWT slam-door service from Waterloo to Reading, then take the fast GWR service (which still has full openable windows between the carriages) to Paddington. NB Most, but not all SWT trains have slam-door carriages. They are phasing in the hermetically sealed stock already.)
Architecturally, Kings Cross St Pancras station (not the main Kings Cross station) is the most beautiful old station in London, as it is fronted by the former Midland Grand Hotel. They've started redeveloping this for the new European services terminal (to supplement Waterloo). I don't whether any services will continue using St Pancras over this period: I gather that the catenary has been taken down, so at least Thameslink won't be stopping there for a while. Maybe the diesels will still terminate there. Other good stations are Paddington and Liverpool Street, both of which have been refurbished.
Undoubtedly, the best modern stations are on the Jubilee Line Extension (Westminster to Stratford). In geographic sequence: Westminster is awesome; Waterloo is so-so (NB when you leave the Jubilee station at Waterloo, turn right up the stairs signposted to Waterloo & City line, to see the cool escalator tunnels); Southwark is very cool; London Bridge is good; Bermondsey I still haven't been to; Canada Water is good; Canary Wharf is very good; North Greenwich is disappointing, given that it was the station for the ill-fated Dome; Canning Town is OK; West Ham is excellent -- very dynamic use of brick spaces; and Stratford is utterly boring.
If you venture north on the Jubilee line, wait on the West Hampstead platform for a while, and you will see Jubilee line and Metropolitan line trains side-by-side, revealing vividly that the Met trains are big enough to eat the Jubilee trains. At West Hampstead, you could transfer to the Thameslink down to Farringdon, which route gives a good above-ground view of the some of the old railway terrain.
Don't travel alone on the Silverlink Metro (formerly the North London Line). This passes through the poorest areas of North London (as well as some nice places such as West Hampstead) and has a higher density of criminals than other lines. (It's the only train I've beed mugged on, and there's often a threatening atmosphere.) (It's also very unreliable.) Especially, do not get off at Willesden Junction unless you are comfortable around people who have little regard for the law. If you *really* want to see the backyard of London, then take the Anglia train (www.angliarailways.co.uk), which runs on the same tracks as the Silverlink service through northern London, but stops at very few stops, and none of the unpleasant ones. You could catch the Anglia train at Stratford, Highbury & Islington, West Hampstead, and Feltham. (Outside London, this Crossrail service stretches from Ipswich to Farnborough & beyond.)
The London Transport Museum in Covent Garden is de rigeur, but not really very exciting. There is a map room (immediately before the exit): we must be grateful for small mercies, but it has disappointingly limited range of maps.
If have time to go some way out of London, visit the Bluebell Railway: they have beautifully restored stations, with a regular steam engine service. (Nearest National Rail station: East Grinstead.) See www.bluebell-railway.co.uk.
Peter
Thanks to Peter for a very comprehensive list. South London Line from London Bridge to Victoria via Peckham Rye also passes through 'interesting' areas of London, but south of the river, and this is mostly on viaduct so you get a very good view. London Bridge to Croydon was one of the first railways into the centre of London.
Earliest section of the Underground is Paddington (Hammersmith & City) to Farringdon. First Tube to open is from London Bridge to Stockwell on the Northern Line, second is Waterloo & City Line, third is Central Line from Shepherds Bush to Bank.
If you want old maps, there is a very nice little shop near South Ealing Station called "Remember When" which has just about everything for sale, but is quite pricey for very early maps. More recent ones (1960s onwards) go for anything between £1 and £5, but rarer early maps (e.g. wartime) can be up to £40. If you want directions for this, email me. Acton Town nearby is another good place to watch trains, and the express ride on the Piccadilly Line is quite fun. The 'Depot' (LT museum overflow collection) is here too, but is only open sporadically.
Hope this helps.
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
I would recommend going on the Jubilee line between Finchley Road and Wembley Park. This part is where the Jubilee and Metropoltan trains run side by side (the Met is "express"). It's cool to watch the Met train fly by while waiting for a Jubilee. Both trains run often enough so you can see them "race" each other if they are approaching the same time. This is my favortie segment I've been on.
Another is Liverpool St, the Central and Circle trains share a cross-platform connection.
Baker St is a must, it's the world's first subway station, and it's beautifully restored.
The new Jubilee line stations are good, too. The architecture is great, especially Canry Wharf.
I would highly recommend the Transport Museum at Covent Garden. You can learn a great deal about the Underground which will make railfanning better. The area around the museum is cool, too. There's a lot of neat street performers, shops and eats.
Just got back from London. As to the Underground, some general comments:
1. It must cost them a fortune to enforce the out dated business of charging by zone. They could save millions by simply going to a flat fare a la Paris and New York.
2. I was very impressed by the large boards in each station that tells you exactly how long till the next train and what its destination will be something New York could certainly emulate.
3. There are helpful announcements to passengers unhead of in New York For example I was on a district line train at High Street Kensintgton when the station master announced that the next Circle line service would not be arriving for 6 - 8 minutes and that passengers should take the District line train and change at Earl's Court. We rarely get that sort of announcement on the New York subway. Several months ago I posted how helpful it would be for me when waiting at Jay Street and a C train comes in to know just how far behind is the next A train as there is close to a seven minute difference in the running time between Jay Street and East NY. I know the information is available as they do make announcements that the next Queens bound train is two stations away.
I guess they just don't think it is important passengers should have accurate information to make the proper decisions.
>>> They could save millions by simply going to a flat fare a la Paris and New York. <<<
When did Paris go to a flat fare? When I was there in the ‘60s they were definitely distance based fares (and also had two classes of service).
Tom
When did Paris go to a flat fare? When I was there in the ‘60s they were definitely distance based fares (and also had two classes of service).
Tom
The Metro in Paris has dropped 2 classes and the Metro itself is flat fare. The RER does have zones but the RER is more akin to the suburban railroads or what used to be British Rail in London. The Metro itself in Paris is one fare.
>>> the Metro itself is flat fare. <<<
I do not doubt the truth of your statement, the question was when did it convert to a flat fare? Was it perhaps at the same time they dropped the two class system?
Tom
Several months ago I posted how helpful it would be for me when waiting at Jay Street and a C train comes in to know just how far behind is the next A train as there is close to a seven minute difference in the running time between Jay Street and East NY. I know the information is available as they do make announcements that the next Queens bound train is two stations away.
Actually, the only information that's available (barring a manual train identification) is that some sort of train is two stations away. It might be an express, it might be a local, it might be a work train.
That's why there are occasional false alarms on the annunciators. They, too, can only declare that some sort of train is on a nearby section of track.
Don't quite understand the objection to zoned fares. Should a 20 mile trip from Aldgate to Amersham really cost the same as a 1/2 mile trip from Aldgate to Liverpool Street?
It's just the administration of the whole thing that to me seems to raise fares just for the administration. In New York, one fare whether you ride one stop or from Van Cortland Park to Coney Island. Simply slide your metrocard and all done. No need to reach in for your ticket upon exit. Seems to me the system in London causes congestion at the exit....
Mostly by visitors who can t read English
It does in NYC
How much does a trip from Aldgate to Amersham cost in NYC?
We were talking about a 20 mile ride. The price to london from NYC can be as low as $298.00 RT in Jan or Feb, just check the Travel Section in the times. Plus taxes.
The price to london from NYC can be as low as $298.00 RT in Jan or Feb, just check the Travel Section in the times. Plus taxes.
I suspect that the executives of the airlines which do fly from the United States to London and elsewhere in Europe lie awake at night absolutely terrified that Southwest will decide to enter the international market :-)
Not Really, this is a usual Jan Fare, SW planes can t handle the Trans Atlantic, short range 737s, and they will not buy any other equipment. This fare is usually started by Virgin Atlantic and met by everyone. This year $450.00 bought you RT fro USA to London, 3 Nights Hotels, Transferd from Airport to Hotel, and one sightseeing tour, based on 2 per room, since the daylight is only 6 hours in London then, but warmer then NYC
>>>>>>>since the daylight is only 6 hours in London then
Not quite. I found the daylight hours in London to be slightly longer than New York's during the winter time. It'd start getting dark around 5:30.
How is that possible? London is further north, and as such it will have shorter days during the winter, and longer ones during the summer.
That's what I thought. But somehow during the winter it doesn't pan out that way.
It sure does
That cannot possibly be true, it would violate every law of nature. Maybe 19 March in London is longer than December 21 in New York, but on the same day between September 21 and March 21, the sun will rise later and set earlier the further north you go. The other half of the year it is the opposite.
All I know is that I've been in London for the past 3 winters, and it would not get dark until after 5. I was expecting it to get dark a little after 4, but it doesn't do that.
Whatever I say you won't believe anyway, so the best persons to ask are Simon Billis or Max Roberts since they live there.
What Month, I was there in Mid January and it was dark by 4.00PM
Last three times combined, I was there in late February, March and April.
I distinctly remember the February journey. Since I had taken a redeye (overnight) flight, and since due to my nerves I cannot sleep on planes, I decided when I arrived in London at 7 am to go through the day without sleep. I did fine and later I took my wife to a chinese restaurant. When the sun went down, I crashed and fell asleep..........right in front of my Chicken Chow Mein.
It was about 5 pm and it was in the Earls Court section of London.
I'll wait and see what Simon and/or Max say. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
A lot depends on whether the skies are clear or overcast. Last night for instance it was getting dark around 7.30pm
Hope you finished your meal.
Simon
Swindon UK
I did finish it, but it wasn't a pretty sight.
The only thing that I hate about London is the fact that you have to pay for every little thing over there. Nothing is free. Say you order Chicken Chow Mein, you have to pay extra for the rice. And you have to pay extra for those hard noodles to put in your soup. And it's like that in all the restaurants there, not just the chinese ones.
I'm not an "el cheapo", but it would be nice to have a couple of minor things without having to pay for it.
I know it bugs me too. Paying extra for a portion of butter, extra for bread. Thats why I like France, Belgium, and Holland. I have never had a bad meal over there yet - and the pastries....
Simon
Swindon UK
The only thing that I hate about London is the fact that you have to pay for every little thing over there. Nothing is free. Say you order Chicken Chow Mein, you have to pay extra for the rice. And you have to pay extra for those hard noodles to put in your soup. And it's like that in all the restaurants there, not just the chinese ones.
For some reason, the only restaurants in the United States that routinely follow this practice are steakhouses (the fancier ones, not the ones like Outback). No idea why.
QAnd at McDonalds to pay extra for the packages of Ketchup
Well, somebody has to pay for it. Either you pay for it explicitly or all the customers absorb the cost implicitly. I generally prefer the former but I can see how it can be annoying at times.
The sun never sets before 5PM in New York in February.
New York, February 1, 2001:
Sunrise: 7:06 AM
Sunset: 5:14 PM
New York, February 28, 2001:
Sunrise: 6:31 AM
Sunset: 5:46 PM
London, February 1, 2001:
Sunrise: 7:39 AM
Sunset: 4:50 PM
London, February 28, 2001:
Sunrise: 6:48 AM
Sunset: 5:49 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
There is no way you could be right. There are some truths that cannot be doubted, like the Earth being round and orbiting the sun, and this.
>>>>>>>>>London, February 1, 2001:
Sunrise: 7:39 AM
Sunset: 4:50 PM
London, February 28, 2001:
Sunrise: 6:48 AM
Sunset: 5:49 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
There is no way you could be right. There are some truths that cannot be doubted, like the Earth being round and orbiting the sun, and this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But your stats confirm what I've been saying. You posted above that the sun sets in London in late February at 5:49. All I've been saying is that the sun sets later than 5 over there around that time of the month. I'm not going to speculate about January since I've never been there during that month.
You said that the daylight hours in London are longer in the winter. In the late Winter, the sun may set later (it rises later too), but the day is still shorter until the first day of spring, when day and night are of equal length everywhere between the Arctic and Antarctic Circles.
>>>>>>>You said that the daylight hours in London are longer in the winter
I wouldn't say that. There isn't a drug on the market that could make me hallucinate like that.
I believe that my earlier statement could have been worded better. What I meant to say is that the sun sets later in London than in New York and not in regards to the total amount of daily sunlight that each city gets.
All right, guys. This isn't really meteorology (nor trains), but here's what you need: sunrise/sunset calculator.
Plug in New York and London for a date, such as January 15, 2001 and you'll get:
New York City: 0718 1653 = 9h 35 min daylight
London: 0809 1615 = 8h 6min daylight
[London => London is the Sustrans sundial at Lincoln which states the location is at 499685m 370945m ( N53:13:33 W0:30:24)]
I'm not sure I recall the relevance to the origin of this thread, but there you go.
...and that's NOT Transit & Weather Together
Thanks for the list Todd.
Besides, it's time to kill this part of the thread. As Salaam would say:
keep iton TRANSIT ISSUES worldwide.offtopiclol!!!!
And just for the heck of it, I checked to see the time of the sunset on February 23, 1999 at London Heathrow. It set at 5:30. And I remember the date because it was the day after my wedding.
I was a little off in my original post saying that it STARTED to get dark at 5:30.
The official time for the sun setting is when the last part of the sun passes below the horizon. The sun's rays continue to illuminate the sky for a short time longer, in the TWILIGHT ZONE.
Some observations from a displaced Brit:
1. The further North you go, the longer the summer days. Also, the longer twilight lasts. (I haven’t done the geometry to work out why). In Scotland in the summer, twilight has lasted for over an hour (the “Gloaming”).
2. Conversely, when I have been in the Caribbean in the summer, twilight has been a few minutes before it has turned dark.
I also remember very cold, short, winter days, with no warmth in the sun whatsoever. At least in NY, when it’s sunny in the winter, you can feel the rays on your face.
John
The further North you go, the longer the summer days.
That's true in every country north of the equator.
Also, the longer twilight lasts. (I haven’t done the geometry to work out why)
Not difficult, it's because the sun goes more slowly.
Add cloud, fog, or poor vis and sunrise and sunset times go out of the window.
Simon
Swindon UK
Isn't London MORE foggy? Or was "London Fog" caused by smog?
Isn't London MORE foggy? Or was "London Fog" caused by smog?
I believe the famous "London fog" was indeed smog, caused by the use of coal for heating. Coal is no longer used for that purpose, and the fogs have largely vanished.
IIRC, one of the worst "foggy" periods happened in the late 1940's or early 1950's, exacerbated by atmospheric conditions, and hundreds of people died.
So the story goes, the government did not want to harm the coal industry by banning the use of coal. Only after the smogs in circa 1958 the clean air act was introduced banning the burning of coal in certain areas.
Simon
Swindon UK
The clean air act helped spawn a big British film industry. See Brassed Off and Billy Elliot. :-)
Itb also saved the health service a lot of money. It was nothing though to what Mrs Thatcher did to the coal industry. Which in hindsight was probably for the good. We now burn imported low sulphur coal in power stations.
Forgot to mention that steam locos and other engines also contributed to the smog.
Simon
Swindon UK
If you ever come to London (you will be most welcome,) and look at the roof tops of houses built before the 1950-1960's you will see six or eight chmney stacks rising from each house. Now imagine each spewing out thick black / yellow smoke into a very still atmosphere. You must have seen Mary Poppins :)
Perhaps I am showing my age but I can remember going to priamry school in 1960 holding a wet handkerchief over my face and not being able to see the next street light.
Things have changed now the smog has long gone.
Simon
Swindon UK
According to the computer:
On 1/15/2002, sunrise in London will be 8 AM and sunset will be 4:21 PM.
On 2/15/2001, sunrise will be 7:15 AM and sunbset will be 5:15 PM.
On the shortest day around 8.15am and dark again at 4pm. For Feb add about 1 hour to these times (approx.)
Simon
Swindon UK
>>> All I know is that I've been in London for the past 3 winters, and it would not get dark until after 5. I was expecting it to get dark a little after 4, but it doesn't do that. <<<
The time of local sunset is not significant. The significant figure is the total minutes between sunrise and sunset at any given elevation, and according to the laws of physics that should be shorter the farther north you go during winter.
Tom
One thing to remember-- London is 5 hours different from NYC. Paris, although almost on the same longitude as London, is 6 hours different. So, the time zone may play a factor in it seeming to stay light out later in winter in London. Paris in winter doesn't get light out till almost 9 am!
In China, the whole country is on one time zone, so in Lhasa Tibet which is 2800 miles from Beijing, The time is the same.
Depending on the month. The further North, the shorter the daylight hours in the winter. That is why North of the Artic Circle you get 23 hour nights
24 hour nights. The sun rises in the Spring, and sets in the fall, the year is one long day.
Not Really, this is a usual Jan Fare, SW planes can t handle the Trans Atlantic, short range 737s, and they will not buy any other equipment.
Southwest's exclusive use of 737's is one of the things that keeps its fares low. Parts inventories can be kept low and it's easier to train maintenance staff. Even so, it wouldn't surprise me if the company decided to change that policy should they decide that international flights are just too lucrative to pass up (and this is assuming that the 737's lack transatlatic range, I don't know that for sure).
There are 737s that can make the run 700-800-900 series) but the British Govt would not allow another American Airline to fly into the UK unless it comes from a small airport not already used. In fact British Midland just started Washington-Manchester Service, I believe on a 737-800, but for a long flight like that SW wiould have to have meals, not just peanuts and cokes.
Well if you're from NYC the airline with the most options to the UK I think is Continental with service to Gatwick (London), Stanstead (London), Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, and Shannon (Ireland), and via Virgin Atlantic codeshare to Heathrow. I believe they use a 757 narrow body on the Stanstead flight and 777's elsewhere. You'd think the price would be cheaper, Newark-Stanstead to draw off some of the competition to the other London airports (also given the fact that it's a narrow aircraft) but it is not so.
They also use a 767 and DC10 for a while
>>>>>>>Well if you're from NYC the airline with the most options to the UK I think is Continental with service to Gatwick (London), Stanstead (London), Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, and Shannon (Ireland
What? No London Luton? Just kidding.
Virgin Atlantic also uses 747's (obviously) and Airbus A300's for the transatlantic journey. Those Airbus planes give a very nice ride and they're much roomier that those cramped 747's.
When I flew Virgin in May, at Breakfast i asked for a glass of Milk and they did not have. The plane a 747-400 was very cramped, no more Virgin for Me, The Continental flight back home was great, of course I got upgraded to Business 1st.
Hmm I've never been bumped up on Continental, how did you manage that? B.A. has recently been nice to me in that regard...
As a Travel Agent and having over 100 K in my mileage plus account on a sold out flight
As a Travel Agent and having over 100 K in my mileage plus account on a sold out flight also took a vol bump to another flight
I've never been asked to take a volume bump- and I probably wouldn't since I typically arrange my flights to exactly fit my vacation time. It's hard to get that extra day off even if it's an "emergency". But.. if you're a travel agent, can you influence that sort of thing? Like is there a way to make a note on a ticket to consider that person for an upgrade?
If the plane is overbooked they usually ask for bumps. If you say are taking a 9AM flight and there is another one at say 11, ask the Agent at the check in if the earlier flight is booked up, or oversold, if they say yes. Then ask if they take voluntary bumps. Usually they will take your name either there or at the gate. The reward can be a voucher from anywhere from $100.00 up depending on the length of the flight, the voucher is good for a year, and may be applied to your next ticket, as a dollars off coupon. The longer the flight the more money they offer. I had one 3 years ago in St Louis going back to Hawaii, the 767 was replaced by a 757, so they had 40 extra seats. The offer was 1 free ticket anywhere within a year TWA flew. I was in no hurry to go home so I had them reroute me on TWA to L>A> Overnight in LA and then a Hawaiian Air flight the next day to Maui. I was given the bump coupon, plus upgraded on the St Louis-LA flight to 1st Class. That is how I got to Israel last year, just in time. 2 months later TWA stopped flying to Israel for the 1st time in over 50 years. They were the original American Carrier into Israel in 1947
How did you pull that one off? I usually try the old limp-walk at the gate.....:)
Plus I got a additional 5000 miles for my inconvience
Read my previous post. advice, if you are not too much in a hurry, do not have a cruise to catch, and especially if you are going home, when flying always take a vol. bump. You get a voucher(I got $600.00) ask them to upgrade you on the next flight if it is there airline or code share, they usually do, and relax, sometimes they have to overnight you and they usually do at their expense meals included.
> as low as $298.00 RT
I paid $218 r/t last March on British Airways. Keep your eyes open and subscribe to the various airlines' email fare savers newsletters..
$218?! Did you do priceline or via BA's own website?
It was an offer received in their email newsletter then booked thru their 800 number.
Check out United's web site right now for some cheap fares on an e ticket.
Simon
Swindon UK
I got you beat! I paid $0 when I went to London. Ahh, it's nice having a family member that works for Delta...
Yeh was it confirmed, or standby? Priceline is not always the cheapist, check airline web sites for best deals. Take it from a former Travel agent and Airline Employee
Standby, you know the non-rev drill. We just made sure that there were seats availible.
But how long did you diet beforehand in order to fit in that overhead compartment?
Not long, it's easier to fit in there than in those tiny 777 economy seats.
Plus $1.50 for the A train. (We don't need to pay the AirTrain fare yet.)
>>>>>>>>>>It must cost them a fortune to enforce the out dated business of charging by zone. They could save millions by simply going to a flat fare a la Paris and New York.
Farebox revenue accounts for 87% of the LU's budget. To go to a flat fare would immediately bankrupt a system which is already in serious trouble.
I found that the Gatwick Express is a rip off, yes you get brand new express trains, but if you take regular service it makes 1-2 stops more, runs as often and cost 1/2 the amount and is 3 minutes longer
I know that quite a few people like the Heathrow-Paddington express train (I seem to remember David Pirmann raving about it).
But it does cost 15 pounds to ride. I'd rather ride the Piccadilly Line for 3.80 GBP. It may take about 20 minutes longer, but I personally find the ride to be quite fun (and cheaper).
Well the train is nice but what is really quite nice is the remote check-in at Paddington (which of course you could use without actually riding the Heathrow Express). If you stay near Paddington, and you have for instance a 3pm flight home, you could check in at Paddington at 9am and have 4 hours yet to railfan!
What kind of connection does NJT use to verify credit card purchases?
Unlike the MTA MVMs which complete the transaction almost instantaneously, the NJT machines give you enough time for dinner and a movie while waiting for the ticket (which then takes forever to print).
I shouldn't neglect to mention the stupid credit card slot than, in addition to having a difficult to understand graphic, holds the credit card while inside instead of a dip and immediate pull out.
Well, at least it's better than PATH.
I understand that they will be getting new machines soon.
Peace,
ANDEE
PATH or NJT?
I heard that PATH wants to dump Quickcard.
I know NJT is getting new machines to print new tickets, because I have one at my stop.
The new ones still take forever, but I think the old ones used to use a dial-up modem type device, because I was able to hear the connection.
I can't tell you how many times my credit card DID NOT go through.........
LOL. It's NJ TRANSIT who is getting those new machines.
FOUR of them have replaced the old ones at Metuchen, my home station, but I don't know if the credit card verification is faster or not.
You'll like the new ones, color too.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Yeah those are like the LIRR TVM's which also are slow with credit cards. It is not unusual for an LIRR TVM to be unable to read cards either.
I have a guess NJT and LIRR use ancient dial up (modems)to access credit card info while MVM's in the subway use DSL.
Dial up is slow, it's the way I access the internet and it's so slow. Even though I got a 56K modem I'm only doing about 2kb/sec. Not to mention minute long server connection delays and disconnects.
I am moving this month and plan to get DSL since I don't want to spend my whole life online.
Good point. I used to have a dial-up modem that downloaded 4-5 kb/sec. TOPS.
Thank God my family and I have CABLE! Downloads are anywhere from 93-114kb/sec. Faster during late night hours. Really fast.
Good luck with your modem.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I still use dial-up. Cable modems have two problems: They are fast if you are among the first in your area but slow down when more people come on board due to lack of equipment at their end and desire to economize. Second- being always on, you need a firewall such as Tiny personal firewall (www.tinysoftware.com) or zone alarm. I like Tiny's software better than Zone Alarm.
There's of course the #1 reason to avoid cable like the plague (at least in Brooklyn): The need to get Cablevision pay-TV services.
Sorry, I'd rather get 32 root canals, then have my wisdom teeth pulled.
You need to get cable TV service to qualify for cable modem service?
That's not the case in Manhattan, although there is an extra fee for those who don't subscribe to TV service.
It's also not the case in Champaign-Urbana (no fee there, either), which was nice since I didn't have a TV at all so paying for cable TV would have been somewhat silly. The only problem is that AT&T is still billing me even though I moved out in January. (They've threatened to cut off service if I don't pay. Good! That's what I've been trying to get them to do all year!)
I don't worry about having a firewall, or when the Internet gets crowded, but it's still better than dial-up. The slowest download speed on our Cable was around 60-70 kbps/sec. Still better than 4-5 kbps/sec.
: )
Railfan Pete.
>>>I don't worry about having a firewall....
You SHOULD.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've had a cable modem for over two years now and haven't noticed any degradation in speed, despite the fact that several of my neighbors have had the service installed since I did (I was the first in the immediate neighborhood, having it installed less than two weeks after Comcast made it available here).
As to a firewall, my modem is hooked to a router which has a built-in firewall; my Macs are assigned random addresses each time they reconnect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Worse than that. Once, I purchased an NJT ticket with my debit card and was charged 3 times. Luckily, I called NJT and they gave me a refund.
I didn't have any trouble using a TVM last week.
The TA's MVM is the one with the confusing credit card graphic. It's of a MetroCard! For consistency, shouldn't there be a graphic of a Visa card by the MetroCard slot?
I don't see a Metrocard near the credit card slot, they have pictures showing all of the accepted cards.
A picture of a MetroCard is used to show the proper credit card orientation. Why not show a picture of a credit card, like any other machine?
I don't remember it. The Horizontal layout is easier to figure out.
The horrible thing about the NJT picture is that the stripe faces towards you on the picture, which any person would assume means that the stripe should face you on insertion, when the opposite is true.
The horrible thing about the NJT picture is that the stripe faces towards you on the picture, which any person would assume means that the stripe should face you on insertion, when the opposite is true.
You won't have to worry about this anymore! They've replaced the old TVM's with new ones, which have horizontal slots for the credit/debit card insertion.
But guess what, the NEW TVM's STILL USE a DIAL-UP modem to connect for the credit card authorization! I purchased tickets today and I heard the dial-up modem. It took 16 seconds to process the authorization.
I also refilled our MetroCard and it took 6-7 seconds to process the authorization. (Check with a stopwatch or count to yourself, I didn't use a stopwatch, I just counted).
I like the MVM's better in their speed.
NOTE: I've also noticed that NJT TVM's slowly take in your money when you put it into the machine, while NYCT's MVM's really "suck" in your money and MetroCard when you go to refill it. One touch of the machine, the card instantly disappears from my hand.
Well, I had good sightings on the Flushing line today. When I was riding this morning, I spotted a grandeur R68 N train going to Astoria.
I haven't been seeing those often.
: )
Railfan Pete.
NOTE: I've also noticed that NJT TVM's slowly take in your money when you put it into the machine, while NYCT's MVM's really "suck" in your money and MetroCard when you go to refill it. One touch of the machine, the card instantly disappears from my hand.
I have no experience with the NJT TVM's, but I can tell you that one very nice feature about the MVM's is their ability to accept bills that are older and worn. Many regular vending machines reject all but crisp newer bills.
The NJT MVM's accept the old and worn ones too. As long as they don't have a sharp crease in them, or have rips in them.
But the thing is those machines take in your money SLOWLY, which poses a more rejecting scenario for older and worn bills, while the MVM's just take it right out of your hand.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The PATH QuickCard machines cancel the entire transaction if a bill is rejected, so insert your crinkly bills first. (At least they return the money in the form of coins. I finally got to hold one of the new dollar coins in my own hands.)
A full card isn't even used in the graphic, why would you think it's a Metrocard?
For one thing, on the machine, it says "ard" in the Metrocard font...
I don't see the problem with it saying ard, since it just as easily assumes Credit or Debit Card. The graphic also shows part of a card number, which is not where the MC card number is.
Does your credit card look like that?
My MetroCard does.
What credit card doesn't look like that.
It doesn't even have the magnetic stripe depicted, how is that a Metrocard?
The card number is on the front, how is that a Metrocard?
What kind of connection does NJT use to verify credit card purchases?
What poses as a defect on those old TVM's owned and maintained by NJ TRANSIT, is that if it doesn't have a connection (it uses dial-up, but it doesn't take forever), it will instantly show:
"Sorry, cannot process transaction. Please try again later."
I get annoyed when this happens, ESPECIALLY, when the train that I am going to catch is less than a minute away from arrival. Then I have to rush through the procedure AGAIN, and hope to get the tickets printed out the second time.
Once, the TVM took (a dinner and a movie) 25 seconds to process my dad's credit card, which then because of this, we missed the train!!!!!
Those TVM's can grow on you.
Railfan Pete.
The Mark 1 NJT TVM was, in a way, three steps forward and 100 steps back. I don’t know who designed them, but that person obviously never had to use them:
–The user interface was clunky in the extreme. Far too many slow menus for you to choose what you wanted.
–Why two numeric keypads, one just for PINs for debit cards?
–Even after years of using the machine, the graphic telling the user how to put the credit card in still confuses me sometimes. That, coupled with the high error rate of their card reader would drive me crazy, especially at times of train approaching.
I don’t blame NJT for the design decision to use dial modems for credit card authorization. In the early/mid 90s, which is when the machines were installed, 2400 bps (yes!) dial to X.25 networks was the standard. (Think about how many stand-alone card processing machines you still see).
However, for Version 2, I hope that they have streamlined authorization by using some sort of always-connected system. It doesn’t have to be fast–the amount of data exchanged for card authorization is trivial–but it does have to be connected. The largest overhead in the dial machines is the time taken to dial, connect and synchronize the modems.
Oh, and for V2, let’s put the card reader slot horizontal, with a clear picture of how the card goes in, and lose the second keypad!
Mike Klufas, are you listening?
John
Oh, and for V2, let's put the card reader slot horizontal, with a clear picture of how the card goes in, and lose the second keypad!
On the NEW TVM's for NJ TRANSIT (they already came out, four displaced the old ones at Metuchen, my home station, and some elsewhere).
They DO have the card reader horizontal. But they still have that SECOND KEYPAD!
You will find the newer one more satisfying, it's in color too.
Details may be added upon your request.
Railfan Pete.
Yes. Try the new one and see how it's different, starting with the color screen.
And oh... btw, don't put those new tickets near a magnet, especially if you're going to Newark Airport Station after it opens... :-)
Michael
How fast can these suckers go?
What is the minimum distance between stations to be practical? (No point in going 150mph if there is a station stop every 6 blocks.)
How much did the AirTrain cost per mile to build as a comparison?
Good questions -- especially as there is no operating maglev line in commercial service.
Speed -- the engineering estimates (circa 1980's) were 200/250 mph. This required a fully isolated right of way (100% fenced end to end) with no crossings, other traffic, etc.
Distance between stations -- a mag lev can accelerate very quickly, so the limiting factor is the g force on the passengers! If you run the train in an accelerate / decelerate pattern (no cruising speed), the stations could be fairly close, but I would assume a mile or two minimum.
Costs -- no idea!
Well, an aircraft can take off and land on runways that are about a mile and a half long, and so we are looking at g forces in this range.
And actually aircraft are not generally operating at speeds of over 200 mph as they land or take off, so, I'd guess a minimum of 6 to 10 miles apart for the stations.
Penn Station, Jamacia, Hicksville, Ronkonkoma might be the closest you would really want to put the stops. But this seems to me a rather meaningles return for such an investment.
NYC - Albany
NYC - New Haven - Portsmouth - Boston
and
NYC - Philidelphia - Baltimore - Washington
are the most likely routings of such technology.
Also perhaps NYC - Chicago routes would be very atractive.
Get them damn poluting, crowded, noxious airplanes off of these routes, and we are then making sense.
Elias
Only problems with Maglev technology:
It's expensive like you wouldn't believe. I think the building cost for subway in NYC is about $1 billion/route mile. Maglev would be easily ten times as expensive. That's a conservative estimate.
It's not ready for commercial use--I'm not sure if there are any trains running yet.
The power requirements for such a train are enormous. To run a Maglev train off of the existing power grid would dim the lights in nearby areas every time a train went by at 200mph. While you would have fewer noisy, polluting airplanes flying around, you'd have more polluting power plants (coal, if Bush gets his way) to make up for them. The people near the train line wouldn't enjoy the brownouts, either.
Did I mention extreme cost?
Immensely powerful magnetic fields make computers a no-no on the train or anywhere near it unless they're very well shielded--an expensive proposition. They could shield the entire passenger compartment, I suppose. Ten million dollars is a drop in the bucket for a project like this.
Dan
I first looked at a site that made it seem like a done deal. Yikes what costs and very specialized track built to high specs.
My original idea was for some express only services from underserved/underdeveloped areas conecting to a Second Ave line. The bill being paid by casino gambling in either Govourners Island or Far Rock near the Wye.
NYC - New Haven - Portsmouth - Boston
????????
I noted NY trains have very few if any flat wheels when I visited recently.
Does the TA have under-rail machines for reprofiling wheels without removing trucks from cars in its yards anywhere or where are they? I recently saw such a machine in Berlin-Grunau depot. We also have them in a few depots here in Sydney.
They would assist in turn round of cars but grinding off flats is still a time consuming business if all four wheels need attention to get wheels diameters correct.
Several NYCT subway car shops have wheel-truing machines. I know that Coney Island, 207th Street, and Jamaica have them, and I believe there are others as well.
David
East NY, 239th Street and Concourse are the others. At one time, Concourse had two wheel truing machines.
Well LIRR and SIRR have problems with flats. You can really hear those wheels grind, especially on LIRR's electric fleet.
The LIRR problems are primarily due to running dead motors. When motors are dead, it usually means that the dynamic brake is inoperative. Relying only on a friction brake at 80 MPH with composition shoes will leave you with either flat wheels or thermal cracks in the wheel tread. What you hear is a combination of both.
Do we have overage M-1's to blame for that? Are the motors getting to the point where you can't rebuild them anymore?
When the term 'Dead motor' is used, we are not speaking of a traction motor. In the discussion of multiple unit rail cars, each car is referred to as a motor. Hence, a dead motor is a railcar with a non-functioning propulsion system.
Thank you for that clarification.
So what would you call a dead motor (that is, one bad motor out of four on a car)?
-Hank
seized traction motor?
It's weird -- I've never heard an engine or a locomotive or a EMU car being called a "motor" until I came to the U.S. It's one of those PRR ideas that seem to have caught on across the U.S. but nowhere else...
A.C.
MOTOR
STOP
In a conventional DC propulsion arrangement, in the 1st point of power, ALL 4 traction motors are connected in series. If one fails electrically (open circuit), then none will take power. If one fails (shorted) then the line switch or line breaker will trip (if not in 1st point, then definitely in third point). If one fails mechanically, technically, the propulsion system is operative and the car would not necessarilly be considered a dead motor although in most cases the unit would have to be (MCO'd - motors cut out).
Say, Steve, do the motors remain in series in series position? Inquiring minds want to know. I presume they are switched to parallel in third point of power.
Sometimes when I'm in the last car of a R46 trainset, I don't hear the motors operating, so the car behaves like a push-pull. It's a much better ride, but doesn't this freewheeling damage the motor? I guess the motors have been already cut out. The funny part is that they sometimes come back online, usually when the train is leaving a station.
Dumb question - do all NYC cars have motors and are they in operation all the time or just the first car like a choo choo train?
There is no such thing as a dumb question....ALL nyc subway cars have motors. They are not pulled like a choo-choo train. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee,
I think the R/110b have unpowered trailers, middle car of each three car set. Now I'm not sure if these quailify as NYCsubway cars. Beiing experimental an all. So they might be the rare exception to the rule , with an astrisk "*" after their discription.
avid
My next "dumb question" is have your ever ridden a R-46 trainset during rush hour? And, I said the car BEHAVES like a push pull. The R-46 is SELF PROPELLED. Ex LIRR car 2807 is a PUSH-PULL.
What you are describing does not normally happen. I don't think that the aveage person can tell by sound if the traction motors are taking power. The three major sources of noise:
The rail-wheel contact
The gear-box noise
overhead blowers
produce enough noise so that most people cannot tell the difference. The ammeter in the cab will tell you if the traction motors are taking power but you need to be able to view it. Again, I repeat, it is virtually impossible to tell by sound whether a motor is alive or dead, in service.
Okay, I believe that. So the noise I hear is just gear whine. I agree the ammeter will tell the train operator if the motors are working. However, what I described didn't happen all the time. But I experienced the enigmatic event only in the last car and only during rush hour. I've never seen it on any other trainsets.
Are you saying that, if a traction motor fails (short circuit) the breaker will trip - but does that mean the other motors now shut down too, or does the circuit operate with three motors running?
Traction motor electrical faults come in many flavors but
the most common are an open circuit or a short circuit
between the windings and ground.
Each of the 4 motors is a 300V motor. They are permanently
connected in series pairs, so it is equivalent to having
two 600V motors.
If a motor opens, the car will not take power initially because
both motor groups are in series. Depending on the vintage of
the propulsion control package, this may or may not be detected
immediately as a traction fault. I think ECAM will pick up on
it and maybe SCM-1, traditional WH will not, but Train Dude
would know exactly. Also, depending on the vintage, an open
traction motor may cause the control to progress right up to
parallel, at which point the non-open motor group will attempt
to take power, lots of it, and will trip the overload relay.
A grounded traction motor will usually trip the overload
immediately upon applying power, because the current will flow
directly to ground instead of through the series circuit of
motors and grid resistance. If the ground is on the #4 traction
motor, which is already at the ground end of the circuit, the
fault may not be detected immediately and the car may take
power anyway. Later packages have a differential current
sensor which works like a household ground fault interrupter
and they'll pick this up right away.
Once there is a propulsion fault, the car becomes a "dead motor",
and motoring and braking are locked out. The car can be reset
from the motorman's cab using the trainline reset switch.
All cars in the fleet now have a lockout counter so that a car
which repeatedly drops out gets locked out and can only be
reset in the shop.
Thanks for that great post.
"Once there is a propulsion fault, the car becomes a "dead motor",
and motoring and braking are locked out. The car can be reset
from the motorman's cab using the trainline reset switch.
All cars in the fleet now have a lockout counter so that a car
which repeatedly drops out gets locked out and can only be
reset in the shop."
A smart feature, in my opinion.
"Depending on the vintage of the propulsion control package, this may or may not be detected immediately as a traction fault. I think ECAM will pick up on it and maybe SCM-1, traditional WH will not,"
On the SCM controller series, a device known as the CMRX (current measuring reactor) actually measures armature current. Based on the current measured, it sends a signal to the logic cards which will, in turn, send a run signal to the pilot motor causing the controller to notch. If there is no armature current (as in the case of an open circuit motor), there is no controller notching so the motor remains dead.
On the traditional Westinghouse controller circa 1980s, the principle is very similar. If the logic card detects armature current, it sends notching signals to the air engines. Again, no armature current, no notching. No notching = dead motor.
To make it very simple, if there is no armature current in the switching position, the controllers will not be permitted to notch forward regardless of GE or Westinghouse. To do otherwise would be dangerous because the line switch/line breaker is calibrated for the sum of the currents through both truck loops. If one truck were taking power and the other didn't, the L/b or L/S would only see 1/2 of the current. Hence, a short might exsist without sufficient protection. This is similarly true about the brake overload relay. For example, the brake overload of an R-68 is calibrated at 1400 Amps. Hence, each loop could theoretically generate 700 Amps. However if the controller were permitted to operate with one loop functioning, the brake overload could see 1200 amps from one loop (enough to easily melt the grids and start fires) and still not trip.
I guess I misunderstand SCM control? If there is no current
flowing in the motor circuit, then there is high impedance to the
AC winding of the CMRX, the AY card outputs nearly 0 voltage to
the AE card and thus there is no hold signal on the pilot motor.
What would stop notch-up if there were no current sensed in
switching (err, what is that, KM notch 20?) ? I don't see
anything on the SCM prints that would sense that the current
is too LOW and declare a fault. I _think_ ECAM is programmed
to do that.
Are contemporary WH CAM (not ECAM) groups using some kind
of CMRX device, or are they still using mechanical limit
relays with the little gravity plunger?
Thanks for schooling me on proper subway jargon.
The propulsion control packages are getting pretty old and
I don't think they've been replaced. They have roughly the
same thing that the pre-GOH R46s had. Very complicated and
cumbersome. Plus, it is the Wrong Island Failroad. Not sure
what their current maintenance strategy is on the M1s.
The wheel truing machines were purchase under a R series contract.
Virginia Division - BMT
Two were purchased under the R-24 contract and one under R-25.
The message is for "BMTGreenHornet".
The BMT Green Hornet is possibly my favorite of all of the experimental trains the the BMT had tested. The "Green Hornet" was probably the most advanced subway train in its day. Some of you might be well aware that it was equipped with door chimes to warn people of the closing doors. This wasn't to be used again until they started to build the R-44s.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
The door chimes on the Paris Metro predated the R44's by decades. They may even have predated the Green Hornet's.
Interesting that the French could have been the first to have introduced door chimes to warn people of the closing doors.
#3 West End Jeff, formerlt BMTJeff
Yes, the BMT produced some great experimental cars, including the Green Hornet, Zephyr and Bluebirds (the 1930s variety, not the '60s World's Fair cars) that were quite a bit ahead of their time. Truly a shame none of these gems were preserved, but they were just oddballs among a fleet of hundreds of standard cars.
While the Zephyr and Bluebird types lasted well into the 1950s, the exotic and tempermental Green Hornet only ran for a time in the 1930s until it was sidelined for lack of spare parts, only to be sacrificed for scrap during the early days of World War II. What a sight it must have been on the Fulton Street el or crossing the Brooklyn Bridge during the dreary days of the late Depression! If only some color photos would surface ...
If someone could produce a color painting of the BMT "Green Hornet" you culd then get a feel of what the "Green Hornet" was like.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I agree that it is a real shame that the Green Hornet wasn't saved. However, something surprisingly close was! I'm certain the design of the Green Hornet owed a lot to one of the engineers at Pullman-Standard (I can't remember his name) who was, among other things, a strong proponent of aluminum construction. Oddly enough, in 1934 - a few years before the Green Hornet was built - this guy was also partially responsible for the building of an all-aluminum streetcar for the Chicago Surface Lines. #4001 was built using techniques very similar to the Green Hornet - riveted aluminum construction - and from a styling standpoint it had more in common with the BMT train than you would think possible between a streetcar and a subway car! The neat thing is that #4001 is still in existence, at the Illinois Railway Museum. It's just a hulk, but the original construction and styling are still quite evident. If anyone here's going to be on the field trip to IRM this weekend, I'll be more than happy to show you the 4001. Conveniently enough, I'm the project manager! You had to suspect something from this sales pitch! 8-)
Here's the URL of a photo of CSL #4001. This view doesn't show the styling similarities between #4001 and the BMT Green Hornet very well, but it's all that I could find online.
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/cta/htm/cta301.htm
I thought the Bluebs were the ones with the door chimes.
I would like to have seen at least ONE set of MS preserved. Those were very interesting cars. Ugly as sin, but interesting.
wayne
The multis were a thing of beauty compared to the C units. And if you had asked me when they were still around, I would have included the BMT standards in that sentence.
Ahhh yes, the standards hada great ride,the bulk alone made them stand out,the Myrtle Ave line had the standards and the Q's,what a combination....what to ride.... what to ride...decisions,decisions.
Actually, I meant to lump the BMT standards with the C units. When I first saw the standards, I thought they looked plain ugly. Of course, I was only 10 at the time. Having learned more about the BMT standards, I've come to appreciate them for what they were - solid, rugged, dependable, and damn near indestructible.
I like to look at the BMT "Standards" in photographs. They might not have been the best looking subway cars but they did have a quaintness about them that none of the other subway cars have had since. The lines of the BMT "Standards" I think were well done and gave the car a pleasant look about them. At certain angles the BMT "Standards" did look impressive and even powerful but friendly looking. If I ever had to choose which was the best of the Pre World War II subway cars that were used in the New York City subways it would be the BMT "Standards". Others that would qualify would be the BMT "Triplexes" because of their advanced design.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
The BMT standards were big, well-proportioned cars that left a lasting impression after you'd seen them just once or twice. But the ride is really what etched them into your memory. They swayed gently but otherwise rode solidly. The interiors seemed particularly roomy, thanks to the 3-1 seating arrangement plus the 67-foot length of the cars.
Their symphony of sounds was also a delight - whining traction gears, frantic, wailing air compressors and multiple hissing effects from the air-operated doors. Many times they'd also experience wheel slip while accelerating. That sound was unforgettable!
Maybe if you know of anyone who has the sound files from the BMT "Standards" I would like to have them. They were great subway cars. I could just have pictured myself enjoying a ride on the BMT "Standards" to Coney Island on a pleasant late spring day where you can open the windows to let in the fresh spring air and then you get off at Stillwell Ave. and if you just happen to be lucky some of the amusement rides would have just started to go into operation for the season. I certainly would have taken a ride on the B&B Carousell since it was there at the time.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I remember the standards as being massive,when i lived in Ridgewood i would go to the park thats across from the Fresh Pond yard, the tracks that head to Metropolitan Ave are near the street seperated by a fence the tracks curve to the left and past the park...at that curve when the standards passed the angle which they were at was a very unique view,just the way those cars leaned was sheer fun to see and hear.and being ten at the time also left an image i'll never forget.
The C-Types might not have been much to look at, but I can still remember riding them on the Pitken Avenue portion of the Fulton Street el, sitting in the excellent, front-facing "railfan" seat in the lead car! (I know I'm showing my age with THAT statement :-)). That's a cherished memory in this age of full-width cabs. Plus, they had those clunky, home-built connectors between units that gave them a funky, homely character, viewed inside or out.
You've gotta give the BMT credit for trying. They took a group of aging open-platform el cars and modernized them with enclosed ends and multiple-unit door controls. In a way, the Cs were forerunners of the D-Types - albeit without true articulation, since they didn't share a truck between units.
They also had skirts on their sides because of the 10-foot clearance on the Fulton St. line.
Although I was born on March 13th 19631 1/2 years after the Multi-Section units were pulled out of service I'm sorry that none of them were preserved. If they were it would have been a delight for me so see them. Now I can only see them in photographs. At least some of the other types of BMT cars such as the "Standards" are still in existence to some extent.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
The Green Hornet, the Multi Section MUs, The Zephyr also weren't saved.
Shame.
R142 Operating Motor 6646 (i didn't get the rest of the numbers) broke down at Gun Hill Road yesterday at about 1:30 PM. This caused all downtown trains to run express to East 180th Street.
Thanks for the post.
Thats what you get for running 5 car sets.
SINGLE or TWO CAR MARRIED!
Idiotes!!!
malakies!!
That particular set is back on the road, so if there was a problem, it was rather brief. A mechanical glitch isn't going to chnage the fact that the 142s are here to stay, and Redbirds will continue to be tossed into the water like toys.
-Stef
I'm not debating that fact..
I just saying that they should stick with Two Car married pairs
Well that can be argued in and out. But I'll leave that subject alone....
-Stef
""Oh Yea""!!!.........the scrap ready jumping ardimillos the ( r-142s ) they ""R"" ""A"" Breakin' on Down' Already !!!
{ BREAK DOWN BEREAKIN ON DOWN .....!! DO THE BREAKDOWN BREAKIN' ON DOWN EVERYBODY SHOUT }!!
LOL ....................Big Time !!!..............he he he he he ..................
I bet some good running OL' RUSTY REDBIRDS blew past them !!!________HA HA HA HA HA HA LOL BIG TIME !!!!!!!!!
I see you never get tired of this subject. Haven't you beaten the same thing to death?
-Stef
Good point. Yes I have been hearing numerous incidents of R142's breaking down like this one, but what do you know?
Once a car-type is introduced and put into service as new, they all have breakdowns because they haven't finished fixing those 'bugs' yet.
Just like automobiles.
I continually hear about 2002 models already coming out. But helpful advice from my Tech. Ed. teacher that "DON'T BUY CAR MODELS THE MONTH THEY ARE OUT ON STOCK, because you never know which bug you are going to encounter."
I agree with this, after following up with stories of my teacher's friends and EVEN my teacher's Jeep breaking down and causing a lot of problems because they got the models right after they came out.
"GET THEM AROUND HALFWAY THROUGH THE COMING YEAR, so they can fix the bugs."
: )
Railfan Pete.
HEY....Listen up....STEF knows more than you will ever hope to know about the NYC subway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Right.... That's because Stef is a historian of the NYC Subway, and I was born right after the Pneumatic Shop was built, so I am not really that of an old-timer long enough to study the subway, Especially, completing my schoolwork, homework, etc.
Railfan Pete.
I got my 1999 Nissan Quest in July 1999. It's been recalled 2 times since.
I got my 1999 Nissan Quest in July 1999. It's been recalled 2 times since.
Only twice? One of the fellows who works for me bought a 2001 Lexus SUV for his wife... it's been recalled five times since January, three of them for major safety defects. Plus it's been in the shop several times for other problems, nothing they haven't been able to fix, but his wife's sufficiently unhappy with it that she wants to trade it in on something even more ridiculous. Besides, their neighbors just bought one, so it's not fancy enough any more for her...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One was serious and the second was just an annoyance. The first one was "possible" faulty fuel tank straps. The tank may fall loose, hit pavement start fire. The second was a turn signal wiper combo switch that wipes when you signal to turn.
Did your teacher buy a Jeep Liberty?
I don't think so. It looked more like a Wrangler to me, as I remember it. Well, I wish I could roll in those memories that I had many months ago.
: |
Railfan Pete.
Thw Wrangler has been around for some time now. The Liberty was introduced just this year.
thats not true because before that new model goes out for sale, they rework and recall that new for flaws before they let it out on the street. reguardless of when you buy your car it will be a lemon or not. unfortunately, your teacher and friends had bad luck. my sister bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee the day it came out and she hadn't had a problem with it yet.
thats not true because before that new model goes out for sale, they rework and recall that new for flaws before they let it out on the street.
I don't think so. If anyone is willing to buy any 2002 year model THIS YEAR, they will have minimal luck in finding one with NO FLAWS whatsoever. It'a untrue that a car company checks for flaws before they come out. Of course, your vehicle will still run, but watch out.
reguardless of when you buy your car it will be a lemon or not.
Please clear up what you're trying to say. "a lemon or not?"
unfortunately, your teacher and friends had bad luck.
They're chance of getting a defective car is the same as if anyone else wanted a plan to purchase their brand-spanking new vehicle the day it came out.
I'd see if your sister bought a second vehicle in the same exact model, that one would have major cramps.
Railfan Pete.
thats not true because before that new model goes out for sale, they rework and recall that new for flaws before they let it out on the street.
I don't think so. If anyone is willing to buy any 2002 year model THIS YEAR, they will have minimal luck in finding one with NO FLAWS whatsoever. It'a untrue that a car company checks for flaws before they come out. Of course, your vehicle will still run, but watch out.
This "first model year jinx" with respect to motor vehicles is largely an old wives' tale. Lemons can occur in almost any production year. Exactly why they happen is difficult to tell; it may be no more than a statistically inevitable sort of thing.
Of course, there's also the saying that you shouldn't buy a vehicle that was built on a Friday (too many workers in the assembly plant knock off early for the weekend) or on a Monday (too many of the workers are hung over from the weekend).
>>>Of course, there's also the saying that you shouldn't buy a vehicle that was built on a Friday (too many workers in the assembly plant knock off early for the weekend) or on a Monday (too many of the workers are hung over from the weekend). <<<
Very true but how does the average consumer tell on which day their vehicle was built?
Peace,
ANDEE
Methinks the window sticker sheet usually indicates
"port of entry" and "point of assembly" along with
a "inspection point I".
#1 um finding a 2002 model before 2002 hits with out flaws is easy to find. it is true that these cars are rechecked for flaws before they leave the factory. because of what happened in the 80's where the american car industry gained the reputation of crap, they will not jepeordize the way they build their cars today in order to restor their name, so they and ford have been doing what i said what the car companies are doing before they leave the plant. research it and you will see its true.
#2 let me clear it up just for you, regardless of when you get the model car 2002 early in the year or later in the year or at the end of the year, you will have a chance of ending up with a lemon. not just at the beginning of the debut of the model.
#3 my sister didn't by the same model. in 1997 she bought a Honda CR-V. she liked it but the lease was up and wanted something more powerful and bigger and went for the grand cherokee.
#4 i say that the teacher and the friend had bad luck when they bought cars that were lemons when they come out because nationwide, majority of the people who buy the cars that come out on the day they arrive will not have a problem. in other words, maybe in your area you see people dissatisfied with their new problematic toy but you will not see a lot of it somewhere els.
oh well...............this is subtalk ...............lol !!........havin' a good time here !!! ...........( thanks ) !!
>>>I bet some good running OL' RUSTY REDBIRDS blew past them !!!________HA HA HA HA HA HA LOL BIG TIME !!!!!!!!!<<<
They'd have to get out of their watery grave first.
ok but soon ""U"" will wish you have bept them around a bit' longer !!!!................lol!!
actually a bunch of new shiny R-142's ran right passed them. THE RUSTY BIRDS ARE SIX FEET UNDER!!!!!!! HA!
SIX(TY)
calm down nut !! ..........again "" U "" will.... wish "" U "" had kept Dem ol' reliables 'round A bit longer ....lol!!!
mmmmmmmmm no i don't. cause even though the rustbirds were still around, we would still have problems.
yea................. uh huh !! ........liiiiiiiiike your new junkers !! .......... they ""R"" ""A"" Breakin' on down already !! ....lol !!
( the jumping armadillios )
yeah and the rustbirds have been breaking down for 44 years
yeah and the rustbirds have been running strong & true for 44 years
yeah and the rustbirds have been breaking down for 44 years, then you know you should have kept the composites
U mean running for 44 years !!! ........lol !
just like the 142s have been running for 1 year
not not even because remember not all of them only about 3 thats 6301-6310 ,6311-20 and 6411-20
Where was that posting which you have posted, and you responded to several of them by yourself, and I saw on the "Responses" column around 6 messages all responded to different postings on the same message, and they were all yours?
I saw it and thought it was pretty funny. Considering the fact that you were the only one responding to your oen message.
Where is it now?
: )
Railfan Pete.
its true ha ha sorry if i got you affended
43 more to go ?? ................hold your braeth .........lol!!!
43 more to go ?? ................hold your BREATH .........lol!!!
....and don't forget to try Cinnamon ALTOIDS..... :)
ColorOfRedbirds!!
>the 142s have been running for 1 year
Right.... but how proud are we to be if
not even the pro-r142's OWN fans
couldn't remember (or acknowledge by post)
the anniversary of their inaugural
run... so much for armadillo fever.
yep ! & they ""R"" ""A"" Breakin' on down already !!! ..........lol!!!
( right on south ferry ) !!!
& south fery U would think all of those r-142s god worshippers would remember thier one year anniversary of thier beloved
JUMPING ARMIDILLOS !!................lol!!
july 11th
Wheeew! Sure you remember it now... but where were
all you armadillo rant-n-ravers some 7 weeks past?
yeah and if the redbirds would run any longer, we would be without trains for the system. you just wait, after the r-142 is worked out to adapt to the system you will be eating your words about reliability.
An un would be a good prefix to one of those words
ardimillos???
da speelin Revolooshen Qountenyouz
That's just too much.
It's pronounced SPELling, so the current spelling is correct, if not with an extra L.
But what point is there to the letter Q? I would eliminate it.
The speling revolooshun kontinyooz
That's just too much
It was meant to be
"That's just too much"
It was meant to be
Damn those Vultures! They are a problematic lot, aren't they?
The other numbers would be: 6647-6648-6649-6650.
ALWAYS starts with 1 or 6 and adds 5 from there.
wayne
If a few more sets of "Vultures" go sick perhaps there will be a few more Redbirds in the flock in November. Alas my favoutite hide and watering hole at Sbarro (Penn Station)is, I understand no longer availble.
Simon
Swindon UK
But remember that there is a new Redbird "watering hole" developing off the coast of Cape May, NJ :)
(Sorry ... I was just there for a week and couldn't resist :)
--Mark
The Sbarros is still there, it's just that the window is not available. Do not know if it's permanent or not.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought of a grat idea. Since I'm a powerful swimmer with tremendous endurance I could possibly take place of the dead motors in the subway cars. Just strap my arms to a contraption that can take the power I can generate by turning my arms then the power can be transferred to a gear unit which in turn can start the wheels turning on the subway car with the dead motor. The only question is could a muscular 140lb. man get a 700,000 lb. subway train moving by turning machinery with his arms.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
but you would be wasting your time because no motors are down there. just the carbodies and whats left of the interior that they didn't uninstall.
Excuse me, I was saying that I should substitute for the dead traction motor on the car.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Sounds like a scene from Superman, the movie. After lightning strikes one of the engines of Air Force One and the plane starts to go down, Superman crawls into where the engine was and saves the plane from crashing.
BTW, don't forget the scene where the police are chasing Lex Luthor's crony, Otis, in Grand Central Station. FL9 diesels painted in NH colors make an appearance in that scene.
I'm thinking that because of my endurance I might be able to get a subway train moving when one of the cars winds up with a dead motor. I'm capable of swimming 10 miles or more in one day at my local municipal pool. In spite of having been born with a minor cleft palate without a harelip which I explained in Post No. 251628 I'm nearly 5'9" tall, 140 - 150 lbs. which is mostly muscle and at 38 years of age I'm probably in better physical condition than 99.9% of the teenagers many of whom are not simply fat but OBESE!! The muscles in my neck are powerful enough that most people couldn't strangle me even if they tried to provided that I was prepared for it. I once pulled somebody who weighed 250 lbs. when they tried to hold me back with their arms. One time a group of people picked me up by both my legs and arms and I still managed to shake myself loose. I'm still able to get out of a swimming pool without the aid of a ladder. In short, under normal circumstances I'm disproportionably strong for my size.
I do have to say that I take a lot of pride in overcoming my minor physical condition and have become an attractively muscular man of modest height with thinning dark hair and a beard plus I wear glasses. MAny people including some men have found that I look appealing in quite a few respects. I also possess something that most people don't use anymore which is brains. Is someone handed me the $5.00 part the broke causing the motor to go dead, the right tools and some other people who have brains to help me it might be possible to fix the dead motor on the affected subway car to get the train moving once again.
I have an even better idea but, this is wishful thinking. GO BACK TO THE LOW-Vs THAT WERE USED ON THE IRT FOR MANY YEARS!! AT LEAST THOSE CARS WORKED!!
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Don't forget the motor and brake sounds!:-)
Whooo-ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. (rising in pitch)
Methinks you have been sniffing too much steel dust lately.
I think that the real problem is that my mind is too chlorine polluted from swimming in the local municipal pool.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I'm planning to do some railfanning within a week or two and I might try to seek out a train of R-142s to ride on. I know that they are running on the #2 and #6 lines. If I'm not mistaken they are also running on the #5 line. Should I take some reading material with me just in case I'm riding on a train of R-142s that winds up breaking down?
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I know that they are running on the #2 and #6 lines.
Yes, you are correct. But know one thing that you will have to spend some time at the platform if you want to catch a R142 #2 train in any direction. Trust me, only if you get lucky you'll get one right away.
NOTE: You can joyfully observe and enjoy the trains that pass through the station! Esp. if your home station is 34 St. - Penn Sta.
But finding an R142A on the #6 line, I think you'll have an easier time with.
I have experienced this from previous experiences at my visitation at 34 St. - Penn Station, and a one-time visit to 68 St. - Hunter College.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Thank you very much for the info. If I should get stuck on a train of R-142s I'll let everyone know.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
okay you have to know what time to go .i got a on a r142 #2 thursday at 149 third ave at 3:20 but get there at around 3:18 and then i got an r142 on the 34street station at maybe 4:00 know when there coming and going like i do if you see one make up a type of table to catch it like i do
holla
Why go through so much trouble for
something proven to be a crappy product?
I'm going to try and see if I get to ride on an R-142 on the #2 line when I go railfanning within the next week or two. I might take your advice and try the #6 line first for a train of R-142s.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
"but note one thing that you will have to spend some time at the platform if you want to catch an R-142#2 train in any direction. trust me only if you get lucky if you'll get one right away."
your bit of information is obsolete. the 2 line is running slightly more R-142's than redbirds and is running with minimal to no problems. so catching one on the 2 line is very easy.
Personal experiences please?
Then consider this:
The ratio of R142's to Redbirds on the #2 line. They do NOT outnumber the amount of Redbird cars. The shipping co. cannot get those R142's in that fast, and just because it arrives onto NYCT property, doesn't mean you'll see that train on the same day that it was sent in.
Whenever I wait at 34 St. - Penn, I always get a Redbird.
Railfan Pete.
when was this because all of this week and last week i've been getting equal amounts of redbirds and R-142's with R-142's being concsecutive behind each other or after one or two redbirds. this aing personal experiences alone this is factual as well as personal. it seems you haven't ridden the 2 line in a looooooong time since spring or so. go do it now and you will see that what you said is obsolete.
Ehhhh... nope... Pete is right.
""R-142s"jumping armadillos" 6646 goes dead (THUD!)"".......
oh well just dont make 'em like they used to !! { The R-142s they ""R"" ""A"" .....Breakin'....Down .....Already..!! }
LOL...........big time !!!!!!!!!!!!
Salaami. please quit it. you are sounding like balogna.
He'll never quit it. A broken record who plays the same tune, over and over and over.......
-Stef
?????.........!!
and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on,
You've got that right brother!!!!!!
-Stef
got what right ?? .......................!
Umm, maybe the fact that you are a boob, who contributes nothing to this board and keeps saying the same thing over and over and over. Like a freakin' broken record.
LOL...hehehehe...lol@@@@heeheheh!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hehehe......lol@lol
?????
and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I KNOW!
wayne
???????????????????????????????????????????????........................!
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
The old Bill Withers song "Ain't No Sunshine (When She's Gone)" was on the radio when I was reading that post - and I surrepetitiously put his "26 I Knows" into my response.
Yep, he says "I Know" 26 times during the bridge in that song.
wayne
on whaaaaaaattttt??
well { balogna. } !!!!! ........to you !! i do not eat COLD CUTS ..........lol!!!!!!
moron you don't eat them because you are one.
?? U eat morons ?? .....another type of cold cut luncheon meats ?? ........I will make sure to avoid this as well !!.......lol !!!
I don't blame you for taking the side of the dear Redbird trains, but please calm it down. We have a number of SubTalkers who are annoyed by your immature behavior. Among the postings, I have found varieties of messages like:
""Oh Yea""!!!.........the scrap ready jumping ardimillos the ( r-142s ) they ""R"" ""A"" Breakin' on Down' Already !!!
{ BREAK DOWN BEREAKIN ON DOWN .....!! DO THE BREAKDOWN BREAKIN' ON DOWN EVERYBODY SHOUT }!!
LOL ....................Big Time !!!..............he he he he he ..................
I bet some good running OL' RUSTY REDBIRDS blew past them !!!________HA HA HA HA HA HA LOL BIG TIME !!!!!!!!!
I have found 4-5 of them like this (and more in previous threads), and another 3 which pertains to a lot of ".......... . ...... . lol"'s and the Redbirds running strong and true for 44 years.
Please calm down and take into courtesy the respect of your fellow SubTalkers.
: )
Railfan Pete.
While I comprehend the cause and drive of Pete's posting,
I praise the spunk of thou fellow SubTalker mainly because
I too, find it rather hard to keep calm when we're
dealing with armadillos that....well.....jump.
And isn't there a tune called "Jump in the Water"??
Memoirs of a . thread
Riddle 1:
What did one Redbird say to the other redbird?
Answer:
GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG
Riddle 2:
How can you tell a Subtalk Newbie?
Answer:
He reads Salaam's posts and expects them to be sensible.
Flaw!
I'm no newbie.
Har Har.
Riddle 1:
What did one R-142 jumping armadillo say to the other R-142 jumping armadillos ??
Answer:" Break on down" they ""R"" ""A"" Breakin' on Down !!!!!...........lol
GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG
GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG GLUG
( r-142 ) trying to make music !!! ...........lol !!
Riddle 2:
How can you tell a Subtalk Newbie? <<<<<<Answer:
He reads Train Dudes posts and expects them to be sensible. !!
( now this post looks much better ) !!!
How bout' that south ferry !! ...............lol!!
Salaam, it's nice that you still have that keen Left Coast wit. E-Mail me when you firm up your plans for your NY trip. Maybe we can arrange something. You donate one or two of your videos to our March of Dimes fund raising and maybe I can get you a tour of our Redbird Boneyard.
C'MON, GUY! Make the lad happy, he's about to do the magic 50! (yawn) ... there's GOTTA be an asbestos-free storm door that you can get "surplused" on paper for him to try to get past the airplane guardians. Hell, the price of sending Salaam home with a storm door and trying to get the airline to let him KEEP it is worth the price of the "emergency surplusing" of the item, no?
Think of the ball-busting we all get to do once he has a genu-wine Grabwell storm door in his possession here on subtalk! Isn't it worth the price of submitting that upstairs? :)
Good idea, Selkirk!
thank you !!....lol!!
An R-21/22 storm door with the drop sash window would be even better.
yeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssss!!!!!!!
Repainted Red?
& a railfan window to boot !!! .......lol !!!
...wouldn't have it any other way!
>>>...about to do the magic 50! <<
He has been telling us that he is 50 for the past 2 years. Go figure
Peace,
ABDEE
train dude ..........lol!!
SA asshole...lol
hehehe@..............lol./.......@lol
????????????
The next time a post like this one gets brought to my attention the writer is going to lose posting privledges. And I'm going to write a note to their mother.
Salaam, it's nice that you still have that keen Left Coast wit.
"Left Coast"? I can tell you're a mechanic. Why not use cardinal directions instead? My S.S. teacher HATES the words up, down, left, and right when talking about geography, because she knows how unintelligent they are to use them.
Have you been around with Southwesterners before?
: )
Railfan Pete.
Pete, next time I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.
...next time I want your opinion...
THERE WAS A FIRST TIME?!?!?!?!
Point taken!!!
I was going to say, "Don't give up the ship!" for the first riddle.:-)
Even better: "I've committed a cardinal sin."
Rim shot!
I think there are too many newbies running around trying to be smart with fresh attitudes who think they know it all.
hey guy i am going to be there this late october to november 3 2001 to celebrate my 50th birthday !!
I promise you i will not ride on a r-142 jumping ( almost as old as a redbird ) ???????? hmmmmmm...
hey guy i am going to be there this late october to november 3 2001 to celebrate my 50th birthday !!
I promise you i will not ride on a r-142 jumping armadillo ( almost as old as a redbird ) ???????? hmmmmmm...
i don't eat them. i am allergic to them. plus i heard they contain the virus that causes foot and mouth disease. you should terminate yourself. moron.
ehhh yup. and pete is wrong.
Of course he's wrong. A lot more sets have come into service since the spring, and more continue to enter service everyday. Why does he need proof?
-Stef
i know right when was he last on the 2
I have a bird's eye view of the El from my apartment window and have witnessed deliveries and testing of the 142 and 142A sets, so I know what's the deal.
-Stef
not you i was talking about railfan pete
I understand. I was trying to explain my own personal observations as not be questioned by anyone.
-Stef
okay
and more continue to enter service everyday.
um. Stef. IF R142's were getting added to the service on the #2 line EVERYDAY, isn't there a good chance that the Redbirds will be pushed out of service like sometime next week?
(which will NOT happen.)
R142(A)'s are NOT added into the service everyday. Kawasaki's R142A's come aboard ships and sent to the MTA according to the arrival of the ship. That doesn't mean that the #6 is getting them EVERYDAY.
And of course, you mentioned trainS, which does NOT make any sense because if what you were saying were true, the Redbirds would be retiring a lot sooner than had planned by the MTA.
Please get your facts straight before posting them.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Hey buddy! Before this becomes personal, I suggest you don't question what I have to say.
You seem to have this thing where you need solid concerete proof before you get the picture. I've been on this board a lot longer than you have and I have friends here. I don't come on this board to make enemies, but there's always a first time.
With regards to the R142s, no one said the Redbirds were going to be replaced overnight. You made that up. I on the other hand have seen these sets delivered and tested, because I live by the line in which they reside. Let's not exaggerate the facts, which I haven't. But they are coming in and replacing the Redbirds. Would saying the 142s are gradually replacing the Redbirds sound better for your ears?
I would like to say something else - I have helped to contribute to this site - a Museum Roster, Scrap List, R-142 Delivery Notes Pages were comprised in part by me. My affiliation with two Museums speaks for itself. Plus I am a Transit Employee. My credentials are pretty good. I don't come on here to speak BS. I don't know more than anyone else here, but believe me when I tell you what I do contribute - I know what the hell I'm talking about. And what I don't know - I learn from others. Try doing the same, learn from others instead of questioning what they have to offer.
-Stef
Try contributing something positive to this site. Perhaps then you'll get the responses you're looking for. No responses? That's on you.
-Stef
Um, actually a set of R-142 cars are being to the (2) line close to everyday and now the (2) line is over the halfway mark full of R-142s, much like the (6) line.
With 210 R-142 Class Cars in service (21 Sets) that's way over the 50% mark of cars need to run the (2), the (2) line need anywhere from 29-31 sets. With 260 R-142A Class Cars in Service (26 sets) that's just about all of the required train sets need to cover (6) service.
Please do you math before beating down someone with your "facts."
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
thank you brotha man. tell it like it is! let them know. please!
The voice of reason...... Thanks partner. I don't have to get my facts straight for anyone.
-Stef
Testify!
well do you live manhattan. your always going to get a redbird if you live in mahattan until the 2 becomes like the 6. i live in the bronx on 225st i always get a new train because i know when to go.ride the 2 from 241st to flatbush when you find time. and see how many r142s there are from deadbirds or redbirds my fault.
i live in brooklyn and we dont have redbirds or r-142s on former d line now q local
okay im talking about the irt seventh av express the 2
As the real world is, the world doesn't end in Manhattan with R142(A)'s.
Railfan Pete.
like i said ride the 2 from 241 to flatbush and see the ratio of redbirds to r142s.
Has anyone received their tickets for the shop tour on September 8th?
Just wondering...
Yes, I got mine two weeks ago, just a few days after I mailed them my check.
What time does it start? Will this sell out?
I didn't know they gave tours of 207th St Yard. How do you get tickets for this tour?
That was my question too.
: |
Railfan Pete.
It is posted in the upcoming events www.nycsubway.org.
How would you react if the Computer Announcements said something real freaky? Like "This is the Express 4 Line the next time is HELL!!" and the doors were closed how would you feel? Or if it had a grabled up voice or a sqeaky voice that sounded like a person from the chipmunks or if someone managed to hack the R-142 and give messages that would freak out people like a garbled voice giving out scary things and random messages? Would you still get on the train or wait for another?
I know this would never happen because the train would be instantly pulled out of service but for this thread the train is still in service...what would you do?
What if the entire fleet were R142s and have all been similarly virus-infected? Would you take a cab or walk and risk getting shot downtown in the streets, or being robbed of all your possessions by the cabbie? Or would you trust the MTA h4x0R?
|_3Xc1e
Fj34r 7h3 5up3r 1337 M74 h4x0r!
Most of us don't understand 1337sp34k. Mind translating?
Dan
Fj34r 7h3 5up3r 1337 M74 h4x0r!
F ear the super leet MTA hacker
I don't know what the j in the first word is for.
Grab a videocamera and proceed to produce
a TV Commercial showcasing the 142's antics...
"" & watch some good ol redbids BLAST PAST THEM !!! ...........lol !!!!!
This isn't much of a trip report, but I just have to mention this about my NCS trip on Monday: The PATH run from JSQ to NWK along the old PRR Jersey City ROW is one of the best railfan experiences in the area! You can get a front window, and those suckers really zoom! Plus, you get to see heavy rail traffic (an Acela Express departed NWK at the same time as my PATH train and quickly left us in its dust) and all of the wayside structures. (Jersey Mike would have a field day.) The towers, (DOCK, etc.), the position-light signals, etc. In fact, in between the tunnel portal and JSQ, I saw a slow-moving freight train, pulled by two CSX Geeps, on the freight track running along side the PATH ROW.
3 Questions, though:
1) How many mph do the PATH trains reach on that outdoor stretch between JSQ and NWK?
2) Is the catenary I saw overhead for a few miles on the PATH ROW still powered/in use? Maybe by NJT or Amtrak in an emergency where the regular ROW is out for some reaon.
3) I'm not sure if the former PRR route between Jersey City and Newark is CSX, NS or Conrail Shared Assets. Anybody know?
1) How many mph do the PATH trains reach on that outdoor stretch between JSQ and NWK?
The PATH cars can really rack up speed in that area, some 45-55mph. While riding on PATH to Newark, I saw the cars slowly pass us on I-280 which runs alongside the NEC, so the PATH must've been going just a little slower than the automobiles.
Is the catenary I saw overhead for a few miles on the PATH ROW still powered/in use? Maybe by NJT or Amtrak in an emergency where the regular ROW is out for some reaon.
One question, What is a ROW? I've seen catenary wires on the s/b track near Harrison, but that one ends just as Harrison station starts. I don't know why that wire is there, but it CANNOT be used for AMTRAK or NJT emergencies because there is no track switch to connect to the PATH rails.
For the third question, I'll leave that to the experts, I have a question about that too.
Railfan Pete.
When was the track switch removed?
Right of Way - in other words, the area that is or can be occupied by tracks and collateral devices, such as signals.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
2- no the catenary hasn't been used in many a moon. Surprised its still up...
3- the tracks the PATH use belong to the PATH and aren't shared by any of the freight RR's. They have their own sets of tracks which you saw along side the PATH in the JSQ area... AFAIK the freight tracks are part of the shared assets area.
the tracks the PATH use belong to the PATH and aren't shared by any of the freight RR's
Why is PATH still subject to FRA supervision?
We've talked about this before, try the archives; but I think you'd need to ask PATH for the real, straight answer.
Yeah, I was talking about the freight tracks beside the PATH tracks. Sorry to imply thinking that freight trains use the PATH tracks; of course I knew they don't. I was considering "ROW" (right-of-way) to mean all the tracks on the line in Jersey City including both PATH's and shared assets', which run right beside. If I'd been able to open the window, I could have touched those Geeps!
Well, at one time PATH & Penn ran joint, elect., service to NYC.
Mr t__:^)
There are two sections of catenary wire still up:
Westbound from when PATH crosses under the NEC until Harrison.
Both directions, from the west end of the drawbridge and for about 1 mile on the RR West side.
Since both sections of catenary are isolated, they are 100% useless.
However, catenary poles still line the ROW from JSQ all the way to Newark.
The catenary was last used by the PRR back when you had to change trains at JSQ and pay an extra fare to continue to Newark.
They're back .... MetroCards with graphics that is:
- AIDA, the Broadway play
- American Express/Tennis, I believe it's a four card set ... who can ID players ? Also seen a Am Exp, Forest Hills Tennis wrap, inside a Red Bird.
Mr t__:^)
They ought to make one showing a Redbird swimming with the fishes :-)
They ought to make one showing a Redbird swimming with the fishes :-)
My mom purchased a MetroCard from a vending machine that had all sorts of people on the back of it. It was some sort of charity, if I'm not mistaken, and if one collected all the different varieities, they could enter to win a prize or something.
It was probably a year ago, but unfortunately, the card was mishandled and could not be found.
: (
Railfan Pete.
That was probaly one of the Emigrant series of eight. They have a different ethnic theme for each card, also it was their second set.
BTW, you're not supose to actually use MCs with graphics on them ;-)
They might get scratched.
Mr t
I did not post anything on these because we got no official bulletin on the tennis cardss and AIDA is only from "Selected MVMs"
Who cares about AIDA...?
They paid for the promo! NYCT got some cash for the promotion.
How fast before some guy at NYCT loses it?
Yannick Noah
Martina Hingus
Todd Martin
Tracy Austin
I wouldn't know any of these people if I was standing in front of them, so to make sure I had the right names, I tried a 'stare and compare' with their photos on the net. What was really strange was that of the four, I could find only Martina Hingus on the 2001 US Open Web site.
I had to go to several different sites to compare the other three players' photos with their metrocards. Didn't Martina Hingus get a Metrocard last year also?
I haven't heard any news lately. Is the project still a go? Is SEPTA still insisting on a metro rather than cheaper commuter rail?
The Schulkill Valley Metro is in planning stages; $6 million has been spent on studies. Part of the ROW needed is under repair (the Manayunk bridge).
There are no federal or state funds available right now for any engineering or construction. Unlike MTA, SEPTA is an independent body governed by a board dominated by surburban commissioners. The latest word is that they will not vote to move ahead with this project unless specific pet projects in the counties are funded, which SEPTA has no money to do. So it's classic catch-22.
The project is in much worse shape, right now, with a lower chance for start and completion than either the 2nd Av subway or the East Side Access projects (which have state, city and PA money available but not yet substantial federal dollars; in addition, ESA is already partially constructed).
As a member of the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers, who goes to monthly meetings where this project is discussed endlessly, I can honestly tell you that nothing has happened in a long while, and few people really care anymore. About half a year ago (wow, time flies by quickly) someone figured out that the metrorail alternative was modeled on the same formula used for the Market Frankford and Broad Street Lines, where it is pretty accurate, and the commuter rail alternatives on the commuter rail model. The subway-el model is also used on the suburban route 100, where ridership is 50% lower than predicted by the model. Therefore, DVARP says it should not be used by the Schuylkill Valley Metro. And we've been desperately trying to get newspaper coverage for 4 months, but nobody cares.
I was out on the area where the line is, from Pottstown to Norristown, and there is little there beyond the King of Prussia area except for the Oaks and Valley Forge corporate centers, and only the Oaks center has any potential of being on the line, if the Oaks detour is used. Phoenixville is pretty much a ghetto, and all that is in between there and Pottstown is a run down town or suburban sprawl. Only Pottstown may generate decent ridership without providing hundreds of parking spots, and not enough to justify frequent headways. Put the frequent headways where they belong, some place like Chestnut Hill or Fox Chase.
Or better yet, spend some money in Philly upgrading stations, which I've been trying to get SEPTA to do (and I'm making some progress, but it is slow).
Mum's been the word lately and not too many folks are clamoring for much more. The real bombshell came when the deal with NS hit the papers (SEPTA could spend $700 M upgrading a NS line to essentially buy off NS's opposition to the use of the planned alignment). I have a feeling the Metro is going by the wayside. Bad news for anyone wanting to ride over the Manayunk arch any time soon...
Boarded a Manhattan bound N train at Queensboro. At 57th St we are told to make express run no stops to 34th street (on express tracks) then express no stops to Canal but we are going through the tunnel. Canal was then express to Whitehall then express to DeKalb.
A nice run overall.
fred would have loved that
Did I forget to say head on on a Slant!!!
It's getting better by the minute.
I would have loved that too...
Since you live in New York and not 3000 miles away, keep your eyes andear open to any such changes and you can enjoy it too. I will share your joy vicarioiusly.
"Fred would have loved that"
Not really, the sprint across the Manhattan Bridge would have caused him tremendous excitement !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, Fred would rather see the N back on the bridge and, frankly, so would I.
Maybe I should just get greedy and go for it all, but reality tells me I should take what my train gets as far as perks are concerned. And I would love to know those guys at the MTA who have it in for my train.
Now you have a real point Newkirk. But I will say this to you Bill and anyone out there listening. Any change towards express for the Sea Beach meets with my approval. But, yes, the Manhattan Bridge is what I am holding out for my Sea Beach.
Fred did love it and would like to see more of the same. Read my post.
Dont forget, when the Manhattan Bridge was closed in 1995 to all subway traffic, the Q ran from 63 St. line express from 57 St. on the Broadway Line, but it made express stops, then local from Canal St. to DeKalb Ave.
Could this be a sign from the heavens? A Sea Beach as express? Well I wouldn't have minded trading places with you, but I just wonder if they were just teasing us N fans or whether something new is up. I'll believe it when I see this as something that takes on the job of permanency. But, if you'll forgive me I won't hold my breath until it happens.
Your train bypassed 42nd?! Wow, I'm sure that doesn't happen often.
I've noticed this this past Sunday (8/26/01) when I was about to purchase tickets to New York from Metuchen, our home station. I've noticed that there were new TVMs for NJT service!
Among the features and differences include:
1) Color screen with beige background.
2) Smaller side buttons.
3) "Beep" indicators are more high-pitched when buttons are pressed.
4) Tickets printed are totally different. These are wallet sized tickets which are brown, NO NJT LOGO, and a black stripe on the back. Tickets are printed individually, so it takes longer to print out tickets.
Ex. You'll get four separate tickets for round-trip between Metuchen and New York.
5) Receipt prints out differently.
6) Card reader is now horizontal, as opposed to vertical.
And buttons for the PIN # and such are smaller and newer.
7) The TVM INDICATOR SIGNAL, during regular operation, is a green block, (just like the old TVM's) but mark the word "OPEN".
8) The pocket in which tickets and change is dropped now marks "Tickets, Receipts, and Change" instead of "Tickets and Change" on the old TVM's.
9) The TVM #, located on the top right-hand side of the machine, is smaller with a different font than the old TVM's.
10) The station code numbering for the machines remain the same.
I don't know if they have these new TVM's elsewhere on NJT rail service lines. Most lines are NOT EQUIPPED with TVM's, such as the Main Line, Bergen Line, Gladstone Branch line, and the (Boonton line??. I've never ridden a train through Boonton), And probably the Pascack Valley line too.
These stations most likely have a ticket booth in which to buy tickets, but most times, the $3 penalty is NOT charged because of this.
: )
Railfan Pete.
From an NJT Brochure:
"NJT will install new TVMs on five Raritan valley Line stations later this year. Ultimately, TVMs also will be installed at stations on the main/Bergen County, Pascack vaklley, Boonton and Morris & Essex Lines."
Ticket Design:
"The new TVMs will offer tickets with a new look as part of our faere collection system impropvements. These ticket changes are deisgned to simplify handling and to support th opening of Newearek International Airport Station and Secaucus Transfer Station.
The nerw tickets are credit card sized, includiong the new one-way and round-trip tickets, monthly passes, and weekly passes. The new one-way and round-trip tickets are pink [Like NCS and HBLR]. Monthly and weekly passes are light blue."
"Trips formerly requring multiple tickets[ie Bayhead to NY Penn] to travel or trtansfer throuigh connecting terminals[ie Newark Penn] will now be issued a single ticket. The ticket will list the transfers to your ultimate destination and will be opunched by a conductor."
They show an example for Bayhead to NY Penn. BAY HD is at the top in large type. Under the HD is shown LBR and underneath the LBR is NWK.
They also show "Out" on the top right and "in" on the bottom right.
now for my comments:
One-way and Round-trip are laid out vertically while weekly and monthly are horizontal layout.
All new Tickets have a magnetic stripe on the back.
I delayed posting in hopes thast Mike Klufas would post.
Hey, Mike- I still woudl like you to e-mail me off-site.
The new TVMs will offer tickets with a new look as part of our faere collection system impropvements. These ticket changes are deisgned to simplify handling and to support th opening of Newearek International Airport Station and Secaucus Transfer Station.
Very helpful info. from the brochure. Thanks. By the way, where can you pick up NJ TRANSIT brochures?
"NJT will install new TVMs on five Raritan valley Line stations later this year. Ultimately, TVMs also will be installed at stations on the main/Bergen County, Pascack vaklley, Boonton and Morris & Essex Lines."
Ah, the good old days of the exemption of the $3 penalty from those lines are now being endangered. I like the historical station houses and ticket booths, and those that have not been modernized yet.
"Trips formerly requring multiple tickets[ie Bayhead to NY Penn] to travel or trtansfer throuigh connecting terminals[ie Newark Penn] will now be issued a single ticket. The ticket will list the transfers to your ultimate destination and will be opunched by a conductor."
Wasn't this in effect for the old ticket types also? Because tickets now print in singles, they take longer to print. I have experienced this on Sunday while purchasing tickets from Metuchen to New York.
The new one-way and round-trip tickets are pink [Like NCS and HBLR]. Monthly and weekly passes are light blue."
Really? I thought they were brown. They might be a dark shade of pink, I've only seen them up close once.
One-way and Round-trip are laid out vertically while weekly and monthly are horizontal layout.
This was normal during the existence of the old ticket types.
All new Tickets have a magnetic stripe on the back.
What is the purpose of the magnetic stripe?
Answers to questions will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The old tickets were multiple tickets. In the example above you'd get a ticket from Bay Head to Long Branch, another for Long Branch to Newark and finally a ticket from Newark to NY Penn. When I explored the MidTOWN Direct I wound up with three tickets each way: 1- NY Penn to Newark Broad Street, 2- Broad to Summit and 3- Summit to Dover. Wuth the new format I'd get one ticket each way (one for RTX[round trip excursion])
The magnetic stripe on the back is destined for use at the new airport station where a swipe or dip (I dont know which) will be needed.
The old tickets were all laid out horizontally. Human issued tickets had one long ticket and one short ticket while TVM tickets were all short tickets.
You might visit customer service at Newark Penn, NY Penn or Hoboken and ask for the brochure.
They will still waive the penalty if all TVMs at at station other than Newark, NY, Hoboken are out ot order. They did that at Elizabeth Wed. AM.
I will e-mail you off-line. It's on the to-do list (hopefully this weekend).
I didn't see this message before you replied. It's been a busy week, and I don't often have a chance to lurk or reply. (Sometimes, it's best not to. :-) ) With Try Transit Week and lots of other things coming up, time's a precious commodity.
Michael
Weekly and monthly tickets have been striped with changing stripe colors so that conductors could identify them easily.
I hope that the new machines have better printers–or at least NJT staff changes the ribbons more often. I once bought a monthly pass that was completely blank. Fortunately, the staff at Newark changed it for a printed one with no hassle.
John
Did everyone get the pick for the Mary yet?
Who's Mary?
Mary is the nickname for the "M", Notice that the original poster has only the "M" in quotes.
The M line pick went into effect last Sunday.
Thanks Zman. Did you get anything on it?
1. Is it running this Saturday?
2. Does anyone know the radio frequency for the NCS? I assume it's not railroad, as in 160.000-162.000 because I believe they use the bus frequencies. Much like the SIRT, which for some weird reason is in the 400's.
Tony
On Monday, a NJT staff-member said buses will provide weekend service for some time. I see much work necessary to get platforms up to car floor level. I wish they'd use the weekends to improve the speeds allowed.
THANKS A MILLION! I'll check out the new equipment on Friday. You saved me a needless trip to Newark. :)
It seems that a brochure was distributed this morning. Check out this site:
http://www.nj.com/forums/transit/
Message 3198 today explains the reasons for weekend closures. It also explains that bus service will be added to subway service during rush hours because of the problems. It also lists as a goal 6-minute rush hour headway, with a 20-minute trip. Longer waits, longer trips do not improve revenue. Joe McMahon
Is this mainline track or do those traveling from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park have to change trains?
It seems to me that it would be efficient to have one Rockaway train instead of two and have it do a 'loop' sortof from NYC to Far Rock to Rock Park and back to NYC. Wonder why they dont do this?
That's the route the old (H) used to take, back in the 1980's. Its northern terminal was Euclid Avenue.
If there were two tracks connecting the two Rockaways branches it would make sense to have a shuttle running both ways between Far Rockway and Rockaway Park. Otherwise, well I don't really know how well the old (H) train fared with ridership.
:-) Andrew
I suppose you could work a Rockaway Peninsula Shuttle without a full 2nd track - say, if you added a 1000 feet of siding to allow one train to wait while the other passed. If you decided that you needed only one train set, however, then you wouldn't even need that.
The single track section is little over 1000 feet. Why bother?
OK. I wasn't aware of that fact...
The whole Rockaway area is two-track except within the wye -- which, of course, has three tracks.
Three? Maybe five...depends on how you count.
The two tracks from Broad Channel split into four tracks, two to the left, two to the right. The wye track joins the Far Rockaway-bound track or the Far Rockaway leg to the Broad Channel-bound track of the Rockaway Park leg. There's a single crossover at each end of the wye to allow for movements from the Broad Channel-bound track on the Far Rockaway leg to the wye, and the Rockaway Park-bound track from the wye.
Confused? You're not alone...
-Hank
Oops! You're absolutely right. It's 5 tracks, not 3.
They run revenue trains across the wye at as close as 15 minute headways during G.O.s without a problem. Rarely do you even have a situation where one train is waiting for another to exit the wye, I've only seen that happen once. They are very good about scheduling the shuttle service (or are incredibly lucky). I've always thought that they should run a shuttle train across the wye after school hours, since after schools let out Broad Channel becomes an overcrowded transfer point for people crossing sides. In the AM people are more spread out than in the PM, so it is not necessary then.
Why in the world would you need two tracks for such a shuttle???
The train enters the Rockawyas and heads west to the park,
then east to Far Rock, and then back to the crossing.
I fail to see a conflict even if there were 20 trains on the route.
Elias
The "Y" version of the H train only used to run after Midnight; it was not very rider friendly because Rockaway Park->City riders had to endure two stops at every Far Rockaway line station instead of going straight to Broad Channel; City->Far Rockaway riders had to endure to stops at every Rockaway Park line station instead of going straight towards Far Rockaway. Having the 2 train lines meet at Broad Channel is the best compromise, it seems to me.
It's "Hammels", not "Hammill's"
-Hank
Ah, here we go again.
Sorry to dissappoint you, Clayhead, but when it comes to GEOGRAPHIC LOCATIONS you get it right or you don't mention it. I suggest you meet me at the north end of Highland Blvd.
Now figure out if I mean Highland Blvd in Brooklyn, or Hylan Blvd in Staten Island.
No, wait, How about Manhatten. Meet me in Manhattan. Manhatten, FL. It's near Tampa. Look it up. Now look up Manhattan, FL. It's near Orlando. Ooops, did I swap the two?
-Hank
Which begs the question: Who was Hammel and why did they name a wye after him?
Answer: Louis Hammel, originally from Staten Island, came to the Rockaways in the late 1860's and erected a large boarding house overlooking Jamaica Bay at Hammel's Ave. (now Beach 85th St.) The surrounding area eventually became known as Hammel's. The trestle over Jamaica Bay, built by the NY, Woodhaven and Rockaway RR, opened August 26, 1880 and entered the Rockaway peninsula in this area. The wye itself opened May 26, 1888, when a connection was made between the NY, Woodhaven and Rockaway RR (by then renamed the NY and Rockaway Beach Railway) and the Far Rockaway (old South Side RR)branch at Beach 54th St.
I got the spelling from this very site. It's spelled my way about 3 times on the linked page.
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/rockaway/
Just did a webglimpse search, no occurances of "Hammill's" or "Hammills" are found; on the Rockaways page, found two photos with "Hammills" captions. All the text references say "Hammels", and several of the photo caption do as well.
Something for our webmaster to fix next chance he gets.
But the whole thing begs the question:
Was the guy 'Mr. Hammel' or 'Mr. Hammels'? Should there be a possesive case?
-Hank
PS-Any relation at all to Pete Hamill or Denis Hamill(sp)?
I still would like a good response to why MTA runs two separate rockaway lines instead of doing the loop via Ham****s wye.
Because of the lost time in changing ends at each spur.
-Hank
Let a Rockawayite do this...
The line is simple not probable.
1-Its a 2 track line with only 2 crossovers. One at the 116 street station, and one right before the wye. The far rock leg is identical to the Rock Park leg. The (A) line goes to far rock except 5 rush hour peak trains, which go to 116 st. The (S) is the rockaway park supplement, which runs every 10-20 minutes. Now, the only time the wye is used is for deadhead moves. The only other time was when the Jamaica Bay bridge is unusable for service. Then, the shuttle runs from far rock to 116 st. When the Far rock branch is open, but the 116 street leg is closed, the (S) runs from 116 street to 67 street. There is a shuttle bus during that time.
2-Where will you put the train? Rockaway Park trains terminate at 116 street. The terminal has one platform, and two tracks servicing it. There are 5 storage tracks, where (A) line deadheads to Far Rock are stored. Now, the Far Rock terminal is a stub-end terminal with NO storage tracks. All (A) trains that dont turn around at far rock back to 207 street go to 116 street for storage. When work is done on the bridge, its a hassle to walk under the mezannine to the NB platform. There is virtually no room to platform another train. Are you suggesting a train that just runs end to end, and leaves the passenger to backtrack? Or are you suggesting a second train to terminate......
3-So the train has a place to platform. But why is it empty? Well, for starters, have you ever been on the line? Its decreped, old, and not a real safe place to be. There have been countless murders, rapes, and stabbings in the trains. The old lirr tracks havent been restored in the longest time. The line doesnt exceed 30 miles per hour. Another thing is that the beanch only covers 3/5 of rockaway. In order to get to the western 2/5 of rockaway, you need to take the Q22. Now, the Q22 travels the ENTIRE distance of rockaway (excluding breezy point). Also, if you use coins, the bus is $.50 cheaper during off peak hours. The only time there is a hint of traffic is summer months, when the Mta uses 8 car sets instead of 4
BYE!
The Wye was used late night on the old HH shuttles from Euclid when I was a kid living on Beach 39 St in the summer. The route was the logical one as described, Euclid to Rock Park to Far Rock to Euclid.
Now if you don't mind the delays and you do live on the peninsula, what difference does it make if there is a train between the one you just missed and the next one that you can take? None, I guess. But if you live at Aqueduct, Howard Beach or Broad Channel, your service is cut in half.
Except for rush hour, service to the Rockaways was bad when I was growing up until the A started coming to Far Rock most of the day.
It was called the "round robin" shuttle.
I'm still waiting. Does anyone know when the 5 will get some? Not that I want to see the redbirds go, I'm just curious.
they should be getting them by now according to TA's plans, if I remember. If not, at least they should get some from the 6 or the 2.
Please, if you're inquiring about them, don't use a subject line that will confuse people into thinking you're reporting a sighting of them.
I agree. I don't even know if the #5 or the #3 line WILL really 100% sure to get R142's in a dream.
The R142(A)'s are primarily assigned for full-time service on the #2 - 7th Av. Express, and the #6 - Lexington Av. Local lines.
I haven't heard about any other line, except those mentioned by these ... SubTalkers.
Railfan Pete.
huh? I thought the R142As were only for the #6, while the Bomnbardier R142's would be on the #2 and #5. And whats this about R142s on the #3? I have never heard this mentioned before. -Nick
what are you talking about r142a is on the 2 the 6 is r142a at the primary order
and the 2 is going to be r142 up
and the five is going to be all r142 up the 2 order will stop at the maybe 6710 then the five will get the rest of the primary order and some of the option order to the 5.the 3 is going to get the other part of the 1st option order and the whole 2nd option order. now the 4 will get the r142a order of only 120 cars taking the place of the redbirds.its true.now if this makes no sense please tell why the ta ordered 1030 cars from bombarider and kawaski 520 answer 400 for the #6 and the 120 for the #4.now that sends almost all r62as from the #6 to flushing and the #3 r62as t flushing to. how many r62a did the six use and how many r62a did the 3 use add that and thats youre #7 train fleet.
get back at me
r142man
did you get the message before this that i posted if you didnt read it
armadillo on the 5 this AM..
really
truly.
yep !! .............lol !!!
& no railfan window either !!!
looks like one big run on sentence...... now write that again,this time use some periods.......
On the frontpage of this sight I saw a Culver s Consist or 2- R32s, and 2 - R2730s
Can anyone remember worse consists?
Ah, the days of the dreaded smorgasbord (or, as Mason Reese put in an Underwood Meat Spread commercial, borgaschmord) trains. You could find up to five different car types in a B division train: R-27/30s, R-32s, R-38s, R-40s, and R-42s. Choose your favorite car. Luckily, the R-10s were rarely intermixed with anything else. I personally remember seeing D trains of R-32s and R-42s coupled together.
I saw it on a flatbed rail car today under the M line near Fresh Pond Yard. It was being push by a greed Engin. So I guess that 6688 was right behind it but I did not get to see it.
Robert
6681-85 should be making it's way to me shortly.... Checking outside my window and watching the homeball - Wait, Track M's homeball is still set to danger, doesn't mean they won't deliver later on. I'll be watching for this.
6688 will be in the next delivery. Time to break out the Wine!
-Stef
Watch what you wish for, buddy ... it might have been purloined from the New Haven area. :)
HA! Good one. It could be a Redbird disguised an R-142 right in the middle of the consist.
-Stef
Heh. Just testing to see if this thing was on ... I'm sure SOMEONE would notice though.
Once we confrim 6688 is on the property I'll have to start carrying my camera.
Hey Robert, you hit it right on the money! 6681-85 have just passed me on the way up to Car Barn as I write this.
-Stef
Thank. I forgot that is were the R142 get delived to. I hope I get a job with 3 to 5 hours WAA on the M at Met. Ave. I would stand on the bride over the yard just to watch the train go by there.
Robert
If you find a job on the M with 3 to 5 hours worth of WAA, please tell me about it!
I know that they did away with this becouse od the M geting extended to 9th Ave., but I di once have a job then 4hours once.
Robert
Not at all. The new line pick was able to accomplish the elimination of all those extra jobs.
i got a new email and i would like to rid myself of this one. So i would like to know if u could Delete it?
Thank you
...and you are talking to.... WHOM??
talk to david pirmann (the site host), probably via email would be the best way.
I would suggest going through the website host to make any changes.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Why do you have to change your HANDLE if you change your E-MAIL?
Does anyone knows what this sign means?: It lays on the tracks an it is either one up to four black dots over a white rectangle. (like a car number sign)
They are in the Buenos Aires Argentina subway system. perhaps someone from there knows, or either a British (Argentine subways were originally built by English companies)
I saw ur Train on the E today. I thought it was a lead car. I saw it layed up at union turnpike in april. Today it was a 7th car of a Manhattan bound E to WTC
Thanx for the update!
Always like to know how she's doing...
What's an "ur" train?
- Lyle Goldman
'ur' as in your, as in car #3730.
I can understand (AND ENCOURAGE) using funky spellings, but UR is pronounced similar to the -er sound in a comparative adjective (funkier, better, worse), nothing like the word YOUR. I thought he was talking about the ancient Sumerian city from which Abraham hailed. :-)
I think we should go back to using thou/thee/thy. I think it would be a great way to disrespect someone by calling them thou/thee instead of you.
> 'ur' as in your
Hey, Mr. "E to JAMAICA CENTER," is this what you meant? Is it really that hard to type a 'y' and an 'o'?
- Lyle Goldman
It was the north motor on the E as of Sat. the 8th. The number is hard to miss once you are on subtalk. :)
Was coupled to 3410 this morning while waiting for my E train at Roosevelt this morning around 8am. Got car 3463.
Later on got on 3466 with a floor that seemed to be sinking-brown floor. They better get to this car b4 the people fall through-also no a/c.
#3463 E to Jamaica Center
And 5200 on the W.
Cars are loaded on Thursdays and shipped on Fridays.
Did anyone get numbers on the second barge outbound August 24?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Did anyone get numbers on the second barge outbound August 24?
Wait -- do inbound barges have numbers? I thought all the numbers would be lost at sea?
You NEVER run on a barge!
I wonder what Redbird droppings smell like. Must be rank.
1. You have to buy some toilet paper. After choosing a paper manufacturer, you insist that it build a new mill in your neighborhood to make the toilet paper. Once the toilet paper is delivered, you spend two years testing it before putting it into full use.
2. You employ a staff of well-paid union workers to maintain your swimming pool. Actually, you have closed your pool and no longer need the workers, but keep paying them anyhow.
3. Just recently, you've completed a project that involved installing 1,500 millimeters of new water pipe. This new pipe is needed to take pressure off existing ones, and you were able to complete the project without any significant shutdowns of nearby pipes. Unfortunately, it took you seven years to complete the project.
4. The sidewalk in front of your house - which, to be fair, isn't your responsibility - is so decrepit that access to your front door has been limited since 1990. Only one person can walk to your front door at a time, when two should be able to. The person responsible for the sidewalk, who is a relative of yours, has spent far more money on inadequate repairs than it would have taken to install a whole new sidewalk in the first place.
5. More than 75 years ago, a former owner decided that the house needed a second bathroom. Two older but still-usable half baths were torn out in anticipation of the new bathroom's completion. A little less than 30 years ago, another former owner - who's recently died - took out a high-interest mortgage loan to build the second bathroom. Unfortunately, he used the money to pay the heating bill and nothing was built beyond a few tiles. Everyone in your house has to squeeze themselves into the one inadequate bathroom.
HehHEhHEhHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEH. ...
I like your POST. I think your statements do have relations to the T/A handling the subway. I esp. liked the toilet paper roll being tested for two years before using it.
Go to the www.mta.nyc.ny.us website and see the "Service Advisories" section.
They have some wild and wacky advisories especially for this coming Labor Day weekend.
Try the #1 line.
: )
Railfan Pete.
HEY!
NEVER downplay the need for serious toilet-paper testing! ESPECIALLY considering the number of posts many of us make.
-Hank
Excellent metaphor. It really is ridiculous the way some things get done around NYC.
I especially liked the water-pipe one. It's true that disrupting service is undesirable, but to not disrupt it takes so much longer and costs so much more. Many riders don't realize that the extra money to not disrupt service comes out of their pockets in early fare increases.
Many riders who do realize that, might not like it so much if they had to pay the fare difference up-front. Think about it: even a ten-cent fare hike - over 20 years - is $1,040 for the average commuter! What if the MTA told each rider that they had to pony up that much at once, or live with a six-month service disruption (with interim replacement bus service, of course) - what do you think they would choose?
Peter,
I have to admit that your post was very humorous, and I initially got a good laugh.
However, in defense of the MTA, I will point out that the difference in scale involved makes your metaphoric connection way too tenuous to be realistic. There is no similarity between buying toilet paper rolls at Key Foods and procuring million dollar subway cars via competitively bid contract. Repairing a private sidewalk is orders of magnitude more simple than demolishing a public, landmark suspension bridge that provides a vital and irreplaceable road and rail link between two communities. And of course, there are 1,609,344 millimeters in a mile, and you don't have to underpin when you add pipe in your household.
I'm not condoning all of the MTA's actions. I am all too familiar with large rosters of underworked and overpaid employees, but cutting off funding to public agencies is like strangling the chicken to increase egg production. The change has to be made from the top down and from the inside out without resorting to draconian measures. If I feel one politician isn't working hard enough to clean up bureaucracy, I do the only thing I can: try and get rid of them next election with my vote.
MATT-2AV
6. To discourage burglars, you station a guard -- really, nothing more than an attendant with a telephone -- in the coat closet by the front door at all times of day and night. During the day, you have an extra attendant in the closet by the back door, but at night that door is bolted tight. You consider installing an electronic burglar alarm system on the back door and reassigning the attendant to other tasks around the house, but he convinces all your friends that their safety will be compromised if you go through with this plan.
6. To discourage burglars, you station a guard -- really, nothing more than an attendant with a telephone -- in the coat closet by the front door at all times of day and night. During the day, you have an extra attendant in the closet by the back door, but at night that door is bolted tight. You consider installing an electronic burglar alarm system on the back door and reassigning the attendant to other tasks around the house, but he convinces all your friends that their safety will be compromised if you go through with this plan.
Ha ha, that was a good one. But don't let subwaybuff see it!
you forgot that their is already a key card system. At first the the attendent helped visitors get key card but now there is a key card machine right by the attendent so that the attendent does not have to make key cards and only helps those who refuse to get keycards.
People have been discussing here about a plan that they want to do changes on these lines in the future like sending the C to Lefferts Blvd @ all times & that late night shuttle between Euclid & Lefferts will be eliminated for good, so A service only operates between the Rockaways & 207 & possibly the Rockaway Park Shuttle could be extended to Euclid Ave also. Has the MTA been thinking about this plan for many years if so when will they do these changes maybe in 5 years or so? anyone feel free to answer.
Personally, I would like them to run the E to Lefferts all times. A to Far Rockaway all times and a shuttle to Rockaway Park from Euclid all times. The service would be as follows.
E: To Lefferts Blvd All times Hillside Exp, Queens Blvd Exp, 8th Ave Local, Fulton St Local.
A: To Far Rockaway All times 8th Ave Express, Fulton Street Express.
C: To WTC All times Concourse Local, 8th Ave Local.
S: To Rockaway Park All Times.
This way you have better service on the Brookyln bound trains, full car sets and frequent service. The C can continue to run 4 car set on the 8th Ave line and concourse, perhaps rush hour extend to 6 car sets. The shuttle to Rockaway Park from Euclid. Continue to run full service express on the Fulton Street Line.
Frank D
Actually, I think it would make more sense for the Rockaway Park shuttle to run to Broadway Junction. Euclid Ave. always seemed like a strange place to end the shuttles. Either they should turn them at Rockaway Blvd., or run them all the way to Broadway Junction for the connection to the J, L, Z.
-- Ed Sachs
If you run the Shuttle to Braodway Junction, it will have to run Express, because of the switch over. Well it could be done, but you would have to switch to the local tracks after leaving Broadway Junction heading back to Rockaway Park.
What would be a bonus is if they would run the Shuttle express from 80th Street to Broad Channel. Might not make a lot of sense, but it would be a bonus.
Frank D
If you make it run that far... I don't think you can call it shuttle anymore...
I agree.. I think terminating it at Euclid would be good. How about that Express service during peak hours to Rockaway Park from Euclid.
4pm - 7pm Run the Shuttle express from 80th Street to Broad Channel and vice versa in the morning 6am - 9am.
It might be an overkill, but it would create less traffic on the local tracks.
Frank D
Any train going to Rockaway Park should be signed as "H". A diamond "H" sign should be used for those rush hour trains going to 207th Street.
wayne
H could be used, but why run it to 207th street?
Frank D
I think he means that the (A) trains that go to Rock Park should be redesginated with a diamond (H).
:-) Andrew
"The C can continue to run 4 car set........rush hour extend to 6 car sets." What are you talking about? The C currently runs 60 foot cars, 8 car trains during all hours of its' operation. Your proposal would require many more cars being required. Cars which the TA does not have.
DO NOT SUPPORT THE CUTTING OF 8 CAR TRAINS ON THE C LINE
I believe that if the TA makes any changes the one they favor is terminating the C at WTC all times when running, run the A/E on Fulton all times, A exp, E lcl. E would go to Lefferts all times, A would alternate Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park, and all Rockaway and Lefferts shuttles would be eliminated.
I ask again: where is the TA going to get the cars from?
The plan was:
A: 8th Ave exp, Fulton lcl, to Euclid
C: 8th Ave lcl to WTC
E: 8th Ave/Fulton exp, to Lefferts/Far Rockaway
S: Broad Channel to Rockaway Park
I don't think too many extra cars are required, though it may have seemed that way in my previous post.
What's the advantage over the current arrangement? The only substantive change I see is a reduction in service to 23rd Street and Spring Street, with no through local service to Brooklyn. Oh, and Fulton express passengers would have to change trains to reach 59th Street and up.
Too many E's, you would destroy the E/F balance in Queens to run Lefferts AND Far Rock. Maybe an E local to Euclid.
I don't know if I like the idea of the E train running in Brooklyn. And I especially can't deal with it being the Express, while the A is relegated to local service in Brooklyn.
The best option right now is to run the C to Lefferts, and build an extra role which would allow a 24 hour shuttle from Rock Park to Far Rock.
N/W Bwy
if so when will they do these changes maybe in 5 years or so?
I seriously doubt in 5 years, neither do I think the MTA is even thinking about this plan. The 2000-2004 Capital Program is in effect, and it doesn't include anything about re-configuring or formatting the A and/or C lines.
This program not only covers the Subway, but the Metro-North, LIRR, Bridges & Tunnels, and Buses(?), and whichever branch MTA has authority over.
You may give it a shot for the 2005-2009 Capital Program, but I doubt it will happen, because eliminating and transferring cars to/from yards & barns, re-signalling, re-scheduling, and all takes years and is not as easy as one may think.
If someone is dissatified with a service, they should cope with it, or pray that the MTA will do something about it.
: )
Best Regards,
Railfan Pete.
[The 2000-2004 Capital Program is in effect, and it doesn't include anything about re-configuring or formatting the A and/or C lines. ]
Why would there be? Capital Plan has nothing to do with routings of trains.
Arti
But the service changes that these SubTalkers are mentioning, it would need quite a bit of work.
FUNDING IS REQUIRED: If Rockaway Park shuttles and ... shuttles are going to be permanently removed, where will there leftover car-types, bodies be used? The MTA will just need to do more coupling and humping for nothing.
And of course, according to the T/A's schedules, I don't know if C trains can run full-time to World Trade Center and the E to Lefferts according to the track switches, relays, scheduling, and train traffic according to those trains. Think about it.
If you remove the shuttle which people may think it's good for nothing, how will you know you can have the flexibility????
: |
Railfan Pete.
[FUNDING IS REQUIRED]
Operating costs are not supposed to come from capital budget.
[If you remove the shuttle which people may think it's good for nothing, how will you know you can have the flexibility???? ]
I don't and don't care, I was arguing your "proof" that it's not included in the Capital Plan.
BTW Manhattan Bridge flip was not there either.
Arti
And of course, according to the T/A's schedules, I don't know if C trains can run full-time to World Trade Center and the E to Lefferts according to the track switches, relays, scheduling, and train traffic according to those trains. Think about it.
Why not... The E would just replace the C going to brooklyn, and the C would replace the E to WTC. The E would run the Fulton St. Local and the A would run the Fulton Street Express. Hell you could even run the E express in Manhattan and let the C run local. Run an H train from Euclid to Rockaway Park all times, rush hours express from 80th Street to Broad Channel peak Direction.
What wrong with this?
Frank D
Not as simple as you state. Swapping the E & C thru Brooklyn would require many more cars which the TA does not have. This is because the C runs on a 9 minute rush hour headway and the E runs on a 4 to 5 minute headway which would have to be maintained because of heavy riding on Queens Blvd.
FUNDING IS REQUIRED: If Rockaway Park shuttles and ... shuttles are going to be permanently removed, where will there leftover car-types, bodies be used? The MTA will just need to do more coupling and humping for nothing.
Why will the MTA need to do more humping?
To disconnect and reconnect cars which need repairing (normal) and to create a train for the H and such. .I agree with Bill from Maspeth that we need more cars if the MTA were to make this service change.
Railfan Pete.
I will admit that I have not followed this thread from thebeginning so I am not sure what service changes are being discussed. I just want to ask what you are talking about. Do you know what 'humping' (in railroad terms) involves? If you do, where the hell does the TA do any humping?
And of course, according to the T/A's schedules, I don't know if C trains can run full-time to World Trade Center and the E to Lefferts according to the track switches, relays, scheduling, and train traffic according to those trains. Think about it.
What are you trying to say?
I will admit that I have not followed this thread from the beginning so I am not sure what service changes are being discussed. I just want to ask what you are talking about. Do you know what 'humping' (in railroad terms) involves? If you do, where the hell does the TA do any humping?
And of course, according to the T/A's schedules, I don't know if C trains can run full-time to World Trade Center and the E to Lefferts according to the track switches, relays, scheduling, and train traffic according to those trains. Think about it.
What are you trying to say?
STOP.. talking about things you know nothing about...PLEASE
Peace,
ANDEE
Directed towards...Railfan Putz
Hey, don't be blaming people and insulting people. I haven't seen YOU post ANYTHING intelligent enough to convince me that you are actually a more superior "SubTalker" than I am....
Railfan Pete.
Almost everything needed is in place except for the code for the electronic signs and maintenance.
Car maintenance would be the biggest problem. Jamaica could not handle the increase in E sets and changing the E's to 44s would also goof things around. Making them all 32/38 does not work as Pitkin does not specialize in them either.
The biggest problem is the idea offers no net improvement to rush hour service. Adding 2 cars to existing C service has a bigger and cheaper payoff.
I would prefer the C train go to Lefferts Blvd during the day and have an Shuttle over night from Euclid to Lefferts. The A go to Far Rockaway and have the Shuttle out of Broad Channel go to Rockaway Park along with rush hour A trains. I think having the B train out of 145 St or Bedford Park Blvd rerouted WTC instead of 34/6. Too much congestion in midtown area.
I would prefer the C train go to Lefferts Blvd during the day and have an Shuttle over night from Euclid to Lefferts. The A go to Far Rockaway and have the Shuttle out of Broad Channel go to Rockaway Park along with rush hour A trains.
I agree so far, but...
I think having the B train out of 145 St or Bedford Park Blvd rerouted WTC instead of 34/6. Too much congestion in midtown area.
...no. How many services do you think can fit on the 8th Avenue local track or the WTC terminal? Why should the CPW local stations lose their direct 6th Avenue service? The midday B would be simply a short-turning C.
"...no. How many services do you think can fit on the 8th Avenue local track or the WTC terminal? Why should the CPW local stations lose their direct 6th Avenue service? The midday B would be simply a short-turning C."
I see your point.
N/W
"I would prefer the C train go to Lefferts Blvd during the day and have an Shuttle over night from Euclid to Lefferts."
and
"I think having the B train out of 145 St or Bedford Park Blvd rerouted WTC instead of 34/6. Too much congestion in midtown area."
I agree with these two points, Dounce Man.
N/W Bwy
1) C to Lefferts Blvd @ all times
For 7 passengers? Even the shuttle is too much service. That service is an opto candidate. If it wasn't for gapping you could put everyone on an one car train.
It would change the mix of B's and E's, more C's (and you would need more) mean fewer B's and E's.
It would increase dwell time at Rockaway Blvd as almost everyone during rush hour would switch to the express. As it would change the mix of expresses and locals this would be a problem at many other stations like Utica and ENY. Conductors sometimes call it the 'dump'.
The point of extending the C to Lefferts is to provide better Rockaways service. If the C goes to Lefferts, all A's can go to the Rockaways.
I definitely think that sending C or E @ all time to Leffert Blvd and extending the Shuttle to Euclid Ave will be the best plan.
1. "A" train riders don't have to worry about transfering between two "A" lines (currently Leffert Blvd Shuttle and Far Rockaway service). And this will also advoid confusion for the people ( first-time riders and tourists) who never before take "A" train to Queens.
2. A much better access to Rockaway Park service.
Also I would prefer TA to assign H as Rockaways Park Shuttle since there are so many "S" shuttle in the system
I was in NYC on vacation with my family this week and I have some questions about the subway cars:
I was wondering whats the difference between the redbirds on the 7 line and the ones on the 4 line?
Does anyone know why the redbirds jerk so much when they take off from a stop?
Which car model has the LCD display for the line letter/number and terminus in the windows?
Why do the lights flicker on the 7 line in some areas?
Why do some cars have bench seating while some have a more WMATA-like configuration?
Thanks for reading this.
I can try to answer a few:
The Redbirds on the Lexington and Broadway-7th Av services are an older generation than those on the "7."
The lights flicker whenever the train rolls through a gap in the 3rd rail (transiting a switch, for example).
As to the jerky starts: I'd call it the consequence of a propulsion control system which lacks the advances and amenities of newer cars; but I could be wrong. The R-46 car, of 1970's vintage, can jerk a little too when it starts up (anybody who rides the F knows this).
Train Dude? Selkirk? Lexcie? Stephen Bauman? Chime in whenever.
The R-46 car, of 1970's vintage, can jerk a little too when it starts up (anybody who rides the F knows this).
They don't jerk all the time.
I've ridden the F train numerous times (with my mom and my brother) between W4 and Roosevelt Av. and they go off smoothly. Although one time, I remarked about the motorman "creating EARTHQUAKES" in a car that I rode around 23rd St., then around 47-50 Sts. the earthquakes stopped.
: )
Railfan Pete.
"Jerky trains" are usually the result of a "dead motor" or brakes that haven't fully released at the same rate as other cars in the consist. Freight crews know this as "slack action" when some cars go, and others don't to put it as simply as possible. When some cars move and others don't, you'll hear the bang as the car gets yanked into motion by the others or pushed into motion against its will.
Trains of R10's were notorious for this years ago when the motorman would take three points in a shot ("wrap it") when taking off. Since the birds are in their death rattle, wouldn't surprise me if the problem in a few cars wasn't fixed. No sense throwing good money after bad ...
What about that R-10 with an excess power problem? That sound bit I have is one helluva bang.
I *heard* it and sadly, it wasn't unusual. The motorman did a ratchet job on the controller (used to do that myself so I know what happened and yes, R1/9's would do it too) and if you listened carefully, you could hear the dragging brake shoes in the car behind it. Slack action and another reason why the TA likes drawbars instead of knuckles. Chances are the car with the slow brakes also had no motors. That was another way of life with the R10's but they were peppy enough that you could have two or more cars dead and they'd still move. But that BANG! was the slack action.
Tell the truth, Kev. Did you wrap the controller from a dead stop when leaving 59th St. northbound on a D train? Used to be, when a train of R-32s left 59th St., that train would be flying by the time the last car would whip past.
You BETCHA ... it wasn't like the ball was against me northbound, and I'll tell ya - after the slow ride on the Brighton line and 6th Avenue, it was NICE to finally be on "home turf" where the motors could roam free. :)
You can't ratchet the controller on Geeps and SD's or you'll chew through the rail, but the grids and cams would forgive you thy ratchet. And yeah, you wanted to get up a bit of speed for the climb out of 59th ...
They're old. Bearing issues, spring issues, draft gear issues...
-Hank
I was wondering whats the difference between the redbirds on the 7 line and the ones on the 4 line?
The redbirds on the #4 line actually were delivered painted red. The ones on the #7 line were delivered in a blue/cream paint scheme for the NY Worlds fair. They featured picture windows instead of the traditional sash window that was standard on most cars prior to the R-33WF.
Does anyone know why the redbirds jerk so much when they take off from a stop?
A combination of aging propulsion systems and excessive wear in the draft gear around the trunion bolts.
Which car model has the LCD display for the line letter/number and terminus in the windows?
Originally it was only the R-44 (A line) and R-46 (E,F,G & R lines). Subsequently the R-110A & B, R-142 & R-142A and now the R-143 (not yet in service)
Why do the lights flicker on the 7 line in some areas?
All NYCT cars except for the cars on the #7 have been modified. They have fluorescent lights that are powered by battery voltage through inverter ballasts. The battery supply is constant even when the car passes over a 3rd rail gap. On the #7 line, the cars have not been modified and the fluorescent lights are powered by 600 VDC. Hence, when the car goes over a 3rd rail gap, the lights blink.
NOTE: I know that some IRT cars have moved around in recent months and some ML cars are on the #7 line & vice-versa.. You'll forgive me if I don't respond to the last part of your question
I can answer the bench seating question.
In the late 1960s, when the R-44 was being designed, a decision was made that transverse seating (which had previously been used on several classes of cars that are now retired) was more comfortable than longitudinal (straight across) seating. Subsequently (and much more recently), it was determined that while more comfortable, transverse seating gets in the way of passenger flow on a heavily used system such as New York's. The philosophy, starting with the R-143 order, has been to return to longitudinal seating.
Except for the experimental R-110A train, all IRT cars since almost the beginning have had longitudinal seating.
David
"Except for the experimental R-110A train, all IRT cars since almost the beginning have had longitudinal seating. "
Considering that the A Division (IRT) cars are narrower than the B Division cars, transverse seating would not be a viable option.
This is hearsay, but I understand that in Tokyo the (longitudinal) seats are folded up during rush hour to make more room for standees.
gets in the way of passenger flow on a heavily used system such as New York's.
The major impediment to passenger flow on the R44/46/68 cars is an inadequate exit/entry door space. These cars have 4 4'2" wide doors on each side. This provides only 22.2% of door space per side. The only subway stock with less space were the IRT Composites at 20%, which were retired from subway use in 1916.
The R143's go back to the basic IND design, with 4 doors and 60 foot length. This provides 28% door space on each side. The BMT standards had 25% door space as does the current IRT design.
Passenger flow within the car is related to seat/aisle positioning, the availability/positioning of grab-on devices, etc. Simply having a large unstructured standee area, such as on the "B" division cars with galley seating does not improve passenger flow. The only cars that were designed with interior passenger flow in mind were the BMT standards. Standee poles were placed to provide standee clusters and aisles around them. They also sat 75 passengers in a 67 foot long car.
Service level capacity is calculated solely on the basis of floor space not on whether the passengers are seated or standing. The reason is that there is very little difference between the amount of floor space consumed by a seated passenger and a standing passenger with "breathing room". Service load levels, the crowding measure used by the NYCTA, is calculated on the basis of service level capacity, so there is no trade off between seated vs. standing passengers.
"Service level capacity is calculated solely on the basis of floor space not on whether the passengers are seated or standing. The reason is that there is very little difference between the amount of floor space consumed by a seated passenger and a standing passenger with "breathing room". Service load levels, the crowding measure used by the NYCTA, is calculated on the basis of service level capacity, so there is no trade off between seated vs. standing passengers."
The underlying (correct in NY's case) assuption is that the train has the horsepower required to haul passengers even if every bit of floor and seating space is occupied.
What you describe is "crush load" capacity. It is based on a value of 1.8 sq ft. for each standing passenger and 4.0 sq ft for each seated passenger. Passengers are literally touching one another with barely enough room to breathe and no room to move any limbs. The "service load" capacity is based on a figure of 4.0 sq ft. per passenger. The service capacity permits some "personal space" around each passenger, with movement of arms and legs.
One should use the service load capacity, in trying to assess whether one seating arrangement is better than another regarding passenger movement within a car. By definition, no passenger movement is possible in cars at loaded at the crush capacity level.
The various studies available on the MTA website use the service load level figure for load level studies.
...the train has the horsepower required to haul passengers even if every bit of floor and seating space is occupied.
Even an underpowered train should be able to "haul" passengers at reduced speed and acceleration. Indeed, none of the DC motor controllers was closed loop. Acceleration and speed would vary with load. The controllers for the AC traction motors is closed loop. Such controllers use a shaft tachometer pickup to guarantee a uniform acceleration profile regardless of load.
The original IRT composites did have transverse seats, but they were where the center doors would eventually be located when it was decided that having only doors at the end of each car was not feasable to handle subway passenger loads. When the new doors went in the transverse seats disappeared.
I had a posting here the very night that the "First Thread" posting was posted here at SubTalk.
What happened to it?
Railfan Pete.
PONDEROUS....F***ING PONDERUOS
Well, it was probably deleted. But you're so vague I couldn't possibly begin to remember why or when. What difference does it make?
p.s. It doesn't even matter if you were less vague. I don't have the old posts to even begin to figure out why. If you were caught up in an out of hand thread it was probably cleaned up. If you were the instigator of an out of hand thread try to behave yourself. If you want to talk to me about the management of this site do it privately.
??? Sorry for being vague, but I was not an instigator of any type of thread.
Railfan Pete.
It wasn't deleted. The originator of this thread double-posted. You posted in the other thread. Look for it.
1) No real difference between the Redbirds. Those on the 7 line probably are not as overworked as on the 4.
2) Probably the releasing of the brakes.
3) I can't think of what IRT cars has the LCD on the front and back. But half of the 2 line is using them daily.
4) Likely power supply.
5) Probably cars built by different companies.
1) No real difference between the Redbirds. Those on the 7 line probably are not as overworked as on the 4.
There ARE differences between the W/F on the Flushing line and the Mainline and the R26/28/29's.
Some R33/36 MainLines have joined the Flushing line fleet, but they too blink also on a 3rd rail gap.
3) I can't think of what IRT cars has the LCD on the front and back. But half of the 2 line is using them daily.
IRT cars? The questioner didn't limit his request to IRT. IND and BMT are also included. The trains with the LCD lighting, letter number, and terminus, info. are found on R44/46, and the R142(A) trains.
They all function the same way, except the IRT LCD looks darker than that of the IND R44/46's.
Example: R46 train on an F would say: F - 6th Av. Local, Culver Lcl., To: 179 St. Jamaica (Queens-bound, Brooklyn bound the sign would change "To: Coney Island"), "Queens Express" (optional).
This keeps repeating until a T/A changes the destination sign with a touch of a computer installed into the trains.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I was in NYC on vacation with my family this week and I have some questions about the subway cars:
I was wondering whats the difference between the redbirds on the 7 line and the ones on the 4 line?
Does anyone know why the redbirds jerk so much when they take off from a stop?
Which car model has the LCD display for the line letter/number and terminus in the windows?
Why do the lights flicker on the 7 line in some areas?
Why do some cars have bench seating while some have a more WMATA-like configuration?
Thanks for reading this.
NOTE: Please print this page if it's hard to read.
I was wondering whats the difference between the redbirds on the 7 line and the ones on the 4 line?
The difference between them is that the Flushing (#7) line uses R33/36 W/F (Worlds' Fair) equipment. There are also R33/36 MainLine cars. To see a HOME RAIL YARD, see the Corona Yard right next to Willets Pt.- Shea Stadium. R33 singles are found there coupled for the summer.
FULL railcar rosters can be found on David Pirmann's site (this domain) at: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars.
Some differences you may note:
R26/28/29 cars have: blocked radiator fans on the ceiling, rectangular sets of windows, "ERL's" or incandescent bulbs in the center of the axiflow fan or the fluorescent glass casing, flooring, which is a periwinkle shade, smaller windows on the doors, a total of FOUR taillights at the back, and some have PC speakers which have replaced the bulbs in the center of the axiflow fans.
NOTE: (They are older than the R33/36's but they have been overhauled more recently than the W/F cars. )
R33/36's: R33's have squeaky axiflow fans which are NOT BLOCKED and are visible (four of them per car), wider perimeter windows which have separate "breakers", flooring: red on sides of car and beige down the middle. Small windows on the doors. TWO taillights on both ends, and ERL's inside fluorescent lighting casing.
R36's: Periwinkle flooring, blocked axiflow fans with ERL's in the center, large windows on the doors, wide perimeter windows, TWO taillights on ends.
They use some Redbird cars with rectangular windows on the Flushing line but they BLINK when it passes over a 3rd rail gap.
About 4 or more of them have been specially painted on the front and the side symbolizing "METS 2000, SUBWAY SERIES".
These are the Redbird cars that blink after it passes through a 3rd rail gap, or a track switch where no 3rd rail power is available.
Does anyone know why the redbirds jerk so much when they take off from a stop?
Because they're old and scratchy. I'll leave this to the experts, esp. for Train Dude.
Which car model has the LCD display for the line letter/number and terminus in the windows?
Try the R44/46's found on the A - Washington Hts. 8th Av. EXP line AND/OR the F - CULVER LCL - 6th Av. local trains.
The F line uses R46's FULL-TIME, and you'll like the ones with the LCD's very much, although some SubTalkers here complain that the R44's on the A line crawl like ants to Far Rockaway or Lefferts, which I don't think is entirely true. They go pretty fast along the stretch from 34 St. to 14 St.
Try the E line. This line gets seldom R46's but you cannot count on them being there. This line comprises mainly of R32's. If you want an explanation, I'll be happy to do so, and I'll leave the other parts to the experts.
Also, the NEW R142(A)'s can be found on the #2 and #6 lines respectively. These have the dark LCD signs. BUT ALSO, don't count on those being there because they're still in shipment. A little more than 13 trains are present on each of the #2 and #6 lines. For a full explanation, upon your request.
All other car-types use regular rollsigns.
Why do the lights flicker on the 7 line in some areas?
For a perfect and flawless explanation, consider the Q/A on this site's domain at: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r3336wf.html
BE SURE to read it CAREFULLY!
Why do some cars have bench seating while some have a more WMATA-like configuration?
The seat differences you pointed out must've been between R44/46, cars and the IRT R62(A), R26/28/29, R33/36 W/F and MainLine cars.
I'll leave this esp. to Train Dude or any SubTalker who knows anything about the seating arrangements on different types of cars.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Seeting differences...
The BMT and early IND trains had some srosswise seating as well as some bench seating, since some people liked to face forward when the rode, and because that is the way rail cars were made.
The IRT on the ohterhand, uses a narrower car, and therefore always used bench seating.
Sometime after unification, the city adopted this for all of its cars, perhaps they were easier to clean that way.
More recently, (if you call the R-44s recent, the city went back to combination seating on the IND and BMT lines. The IRT cars remain to narrow and will keep their bench seating arrangements.
Lights flicker when the cars loose power.
The loose power when passing over a gap in the third rail such as where switches are located.
Having dead snakes inside of one's pocket is a private joke.
Elias
The F line uses R46's FULL-TIME, and you'll like the ones with the LCD's very much,
How do you know what he'll like?
How do you know what he'll like?
He knows what all railfans like.
sorry for the second post