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Anyone else here feel that the MTA is going to treat the lines from Canal to DeKalb in a similar fashion to, let's say, the Queens Blvd line from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza? On paper, both are identical. Both use separate ROWs to skip their respective stops. The bridge line makes no stops between Canal and Dekalb, the tunnel makes 6 (7 if you count the bypass until Pacific). This little loose interpretation of "express run" can justify an action I know the MTA will take upon reopening the south side (I can see the posters now):
(N) (R) - LATE NIGHT / WEEK END
Trains run express from DeKalb ave to Canal st. Passengers wishing to travel to stations City Hall through Lawrence from Brooklyn must take a northbound N, R, or Q to Canal st, where you can transfer to a Southbound N or R. Passengers wishing to travel from stations City Hall through Lawrence to Manhattan and Queens must take a southbound N or R to Dekalb ave, where you can transfer to a northbound N, R, or Q.
What is wrong with that? A tourist (or anyone else) going from City Hall to Times Square will have one helluva long assed ride. What about people who planned on going from the SI ferry to the World Trade Center? Most people would not learn of this until entering fare control, and without an unlimited ride card will not wish to exit to take a nearby line. They will end up severly diverted, and because one direction will still be viable no shuttle bus or train service will be provided to take off the extra half hour the diversion will cause.
Just some food for thought on GOs that haven't happened yet.
I don't know that people wouldn't know of the GO until after entering fare control... don't many of the stations have separate fare controls for north and south --- they'd block those entrances off with instructions to use the 1/9 for much of what you're concerned about.
There are only two stations like that, Cortland and Rector.
What is wrong with that? A tourist (or anyone else) going from City Hall to Times Square will have one helluva long assed ride. What about people who planned on going from the SI ferry to the World Trade Center? Most people would not learn of this until entering fare control, and without an unlimited ride card will not wish to exit to take a nearby line. They will end up severly diverted, and because one direction will still be viable no shuttle bus or train service will be provided to take off the extra half hour the diversion will cause.
But this is no different from what happens everywhere else a local is diverted to the express tracks. Why treat it any differently?
I agree that GO's should be publicized much better than they are. A tourist about to enter the station at City Hall should be directed across the street to the 2/3, which, incidentally, get to Times Square much faster than the N/R, and a tourist about to enter the station at Whitehall should be directed over to the 1, which stops closer to WTC anyway (although I can't imagine anyone paying $1.50 to go from South Ferry to the WTC -- if I'm feeling particularly lazy, I might take the train or bus if I'm using an unlimited or I have an unused transfer on my card, but it's really a very short walk).
Are S/A's permitted to give out block tickets (or transfers of some other sort) to passengers who enter a station then realize that, with the GO in effect, they'd be better off taking a different line to begin with?
Block tickets are only issued if there is NO service at that station due to a blockage, etc.
If you enter a station accidentally and there is service available, then you're out of luck.
That's awfully kind of the TA.
Actually, most tourists seem to read the signs and ask questions if they're not sure. It's the regular riders who seem to be in total ignorance of what's going on on their lines.
It doesn't help that GO's are publicized very poorly, if at all.
Hint: Regular passengers have no reason to look in the direction of the token booth. GO's posted there will naturally be ignored.
Hint: PA systems, in stations and on trains, are notoriously unreliable. Announcements that can't be heard can't be heeded. It would help, also, if the TA would cut back on the unnecessary canned announcements.
At a minimum, the GO poster should be posted in each car of every train affected and in at least ten places on each platform affected (unless the platform is blocked off). Detailed announcements should direct passengers to alternate routes (of all the express rides I've had on the N/R in the past months, not once did I hear the C/R recommend the 6 as an alternate to the N/R local stations between 14th and Canal) and, when the time comes, should explicitly direct them to trains running the other way (tourists, especially, may not know that at a typical station with two island platforms, they'll need to get to the other platform to go back) -- which, incidentally, should be at the very first point at which the reverse transfer is possible, even if it means distributing transfers, reprogramming turnstiles, or letting everyone in for free. Announcements should clearly distinguish between "This train is running express, but the following train will be making local stops" and "All (insert line) trains are running express until 3:00 this afternoon" -- too often a vague "This train is running express" sends scores of passengers to the platform, only to wait for another train that will be bypassing the same station. The poster should also hang on other lines that carry many passengers who transfer into the line under GO, as well as every line, without exception, that loses a transfer due to a GO. (For instance, last week, the F was running express and bypassing 4th Avenue, a transfer point from the R. Signs should have been posted in every R train warning passengers to get the F somewhere else or be prepared to do a lot of unnecessary backtracking.)
Ideally, I'd like to see full systemwide GO information available to the public, on request, at each station. The TA should automatically generate a map, similar to The Map, graphically depicting all of the GO's in effect. (There would easily be a half-dozen or more released per week: weekend overnight, weekend daytime, weekday overnight, weekday midday, weekday rush hour -- and tack on some more for the GO's that take place only one day of the weekend, or take place only on Tuesday nights, or take place only on Thursday and Friday middays (I'm not making these up), etc. That's fine, since production would be automated -- they would need to be prominently marked with the effective times, though. Perhaps in a few years, stations will be equipped with large electronic displays, which could display this map (along with other information) -- that would avoid printing costs.
GO's often announce when locals run express. They rarely announce when expresses run local. They should. Someone embarking on a long ride might prefer to take a different route rather than sit through a zillion local stops. A few months ago I planned to transfer from the 2 to the 1 at 42nd to go to 86th, since a GO had all 1's running express from 42nd to 72nd, but, fortunately, I was unsure when exactly the 2 began its nighttime local runs so I asked the T/O at Flatbush if he'd be making local stops, and he told me that he'd be running express to 72nd and local from there. Had I not asked, I would have changed trains unnecessarily. Complete information is a good thing.
Oh, and there's no excuse for inaccurate GO's. A GO shouldn't claim that trains are running express from Jay to 4th when they're actually running express to Church with an intermediate stop only at 7th. A GO shouldn't claim that trains are running express on the Sea Beach and stopping at New Utrecht when, in fact, they're not. (It took months before that one was corrected. And since there's no email address on the MTA web site, there's no easy way to submit corrections.)
(Alex, thanks for the opportunity to rant. Please don't take any of this personally.)
They post GO notices in subway cars. Then you have assholes tearing them down.
Why aren't they checked at each terminal and replaced if necessary? On the B and N express runs from Coney Island (which I've ridden more than a few times), I don't think I've ever seen a poster in the cars -- not to mention the platforms, the mezzanine, or the transfer overpass. (Once the GO wasn't announced either; there were lots of annoyed passengers in my car, including one who was planning on going only one stop.) Surely it wouldn't be too much to ask the T/O, who has to walk from one end of the train to the other anyway, to walk with a stack of posters and a roll of tape.
Dave: I wasn't aware the Sea Beach was even going over the Manny B at all. Has there been a change of any kind? I need to know this because the Sea Beach and the Manhattan Bridge is a very sore point with me, and when I think of my train meandering in that damn Montague tunnel instead of riding majestically over the Manny B, well, a lot of light is taken out of the day for me.
It's not, but it might have to run on the bridge for an occasional GO.
Hint: Regular passengers have no reason to look in the direction of the token booth. GO's posted there will naturally be ignored.
Hint: PA systems, in stations and on trains, are notoriously unreliable. Announcements that can't be heard can't be heeded. It would help, also, if the TA would cut back on the unnecessary canned announcements.
David, first off, don't worry. I've got better things to take personally than folks ranting at my employer. I only get annoyed when they attack me.
Hint 1: They do have a reason to look in the direction of the booth -- that's where the service disruptions tend to get posted where the riding public can't tear them down. If you want to know about them, start there.
Hint 2: I'll grant that the station PAs are not the best (although they are getting better). However, most of the train PAs do work (some of the CRs don't, but that's a different problem); what doesn't seem to work is the passenger's hearing, and occasionally, that part of the brain that is in charge of what is usually referred to 'common sense'. I can (and have) make announcements on trains where all the PA speakers are working, and have passengers tell me I said nothing, did not tell them of re-routes and all sorts of other things, while at the same time getting commendations for my excellent, clear announcements (can't win 'em all).
The GO announcements tend to disappear from cars and platforms for a number of reasons. The top three, in no particular order:
There's so many of them, no one will this one; I'll take it to remember what's going on.
I don't wnat this to happen, so if I remove them all, it won't.
I'm an asshole, and want lots of people to have a really crummy day.
A few months ago I planned to transfer from the 2 to the 1 at 42nd to go to 86th, since a GO had all 1's running express from 42nd to 72nd, but, fortunately, I was unsure when exactly the 2 began its nighttime local runs so I asked the T/O at Flatbush if he'd be making local stops, and he told me that he'd be running express to 72nd and local from there. Had I not asked, I would have changed trains unnecessarily. Complete information is a good thing.
I'm confused here. You knew the local was running express from 42 to 72 due to a GO. This suggests that the express must also be running express in the same area. Why did you want to change at 42 St for the local instead of at 72 St? Having reached 72 St, you then stood a reasonable chance of being told that the train would run local to 96 St.
Hint 1: They do have a reason to look in the direction of the booth -- that's where the service disruptions tend to get posted where the riding public can't tear them down. If you want to know about them, start there.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I'm pretty familiar with the subway system. I know where the lines run. With the exception of Queensbridge service, which is explicitly by GO nights and weekends, the map shows service patterns covering all times of the week. If the TA wants to temporarily change those service patterns, it's the TA's responsibility to notify me of the changes. I'm not asking for a personal phone call from Larry Reuter but I think it's reasonable to expect to see notices posted where I will naturally see them before it's too late to revise my travel plans. (IANAL, but the TA might even have a legal responsibility to go out of its way to inform its passengers of any changes to the routes depicted on the map. No, I have no plans to sue.)
Hint 2: I'll grant that the station PAs are not the best (although they are getting better). However, most of the train PAs do work (some of the CRs don't, but that's a different problem); what doesn't seem to work is the passenger's hearing, and occasionally, that part of the brain that is in charge of what is usually referred to 'common sense'. I can (and have) make announcements on trains where all the PA speakers are working, and have passengers tell me I said nothing, did not tell them of re-routes and all sorts of other things, while at the same time getting commendations for my excellent, clear announcements (can't win 'em all).
Most of the train PAs do work, but many are too quiet to hear and some are too loud to hear. Even ones that are properly adjusted are often impossible to hear in a crowded car or on a noisy section of track. That's why announcements can't be relied on as the only means of communication.
Yes, many passengers turn off their ears the moment they board the train. I don't have a solution.
Once again, I'd like to draw attention to the ambiguity in the all-too-common "This train will be running express to (wherever)." Is only this one train diverted (so passengers bound for local stops should get off and wait for the next train) or are all trains diverted (so passengers bound for local stops should stay on board and backtrack)? If nothing else, if there are any C/R's reading this post who make the usual ambiguous announcement, I urge you to add this crucial information from the start.
The GO announcements tend to disappear from cars and platforms for a number of reasons. The top three, in no particular order:
Yes, they disappear, but the TA has the power to make them reappear. At a minimum, posters in trains should be checked and replaced (if necessary) at each terminal and posters (and tape) in stations should be checked and replaced every hour or two. (What are the current procedures? Whatever they are, they're inadequate.)
The TA should also consider making the posters difficult to remove. For instance, not many passengers remove the ads in the cars -- so why not put GO announcements in the advertising slots? Could locking display cases be placed on the platforms?
I'm confused here. You knew the local was running express from 42 to 72 due to a GO. This suggests that the express must also be running express in the same area. Why did you want to change at 42 St for the local instead of at 72 St? Having reached 72 St, you then stood a reasonable chance of being told that the train would run local to 96 St.
Why transfer at 42? Because 72 is hot and has narrow platforms. Since, according to the GO, it made no difference where I transferred, why not use the more comfortable station?
Express trains normally run express. I saw no indications on the TA web site that express trains that weekend would be running local. Why would I stand a reasonable chance of being told that my express train would run local? It's an express. (Now I know better: the TA never bothers posting express-on-local GO's. Sometimes they're easy to derive from other GO's -- e.g., if the C is cut back to WTC or isn't running at all, the A must be running local in Brooklyn -- but in this case there was no indication until the train switched to the local track at 72.)
You'd be suprised to know people steal advertisements. Wonder why there is that metal thing that locks to keep the ad in on the door panels? Do you also see the chipped light borders on some 75 footers?
I'm not surprised at all, but most of the ads make it through the end of the day while often none of the GO posters do.
Speaking of stolen ads, do those T/O's who tape ads over the cab window take them from the car, thereby effectively stealing from the advertiser? The ad used on the B I rode last week was none other than the announcement of Manhattan Bridge changes (facing into the cab). To the T/O's credit, he removed it when he entered the cab, although he didn't put it back where the passengers could see it.
It should be treated differently because most situations would require people to cross the East River twice, through a slow tunnel and an even slower bridge (BTW: The south side is slower than the north side. My D train beat one of those T/O familiarization trains. Maybe they were moving slowly...).
When I rode the F from East Broadway to Brooklyn a few weeks ago, the Manhattan-bound F was running via the C (as per GO). Passengers were instructed (to the extent that they were instructed to do anything at all -- I didn't see any posters at platform level and the northbound track wasn't taped off) to ride to Jay and then backtrack. That's two river crossings and the TA thinks nothing of enacting this GO regularly.
For the ultimate in inconvenience, look at last week's midday GO on the F and G. Myrtle-Willoughby to Bergen is normally a one-seat, six-stop ride. Last week, this was the route: G one stop to Bedford-Nostrand, shuttle to Hoyt, cross over, A/C one stop to Jay, cross over, F "one stop" to 7th Avenue, cross over, F back to Bergen. That's five trains and three crossover transfers. You'd allow that but not the N/R running one way over the bridge? (Don't forget that the N/R in lower Manhattan is closely paralleled by the 1/9 and 4/5. As long as passengers are warned before entering the station, they can walk a block east or west and take a different train.)
What I'm saying is passengers won't know anything until they're in the station, maybe a few will be enlightened before dropping the token or swiping. A majority will not know. As for the G Brooklyn one, I agree it is a bit of a struggle for passengers, but you don't get sent into a different borough in the process. Plus, that was only middays, many passengers in the know could simply rush to make the last unified train or wait until the first one afterward. Plus, the backtracking is a bit more clear cut (though Jay and Hoyt could be a tad confusing). Try figuring out where to cross at DeKalb or Canal st. bridge, where all the signage points you to completely different directions to where the G.O. posters are sending you. The F express affected enlightened Brooklyn riders, who have a familiarity with their home station and have experienced GOs before.
The rerouted F via 8th and other whatnot is similar, I agree. But in this case the Manhattan stations do have within fare control transfer options, if only southbound Fs are running and you want to head north you can txfr at Delancey for the J to the Broadway, Lexington, and weekdays the 8th ave lines without leaving the borough.
Keep in mind: An often occurrence with tourists is missing stops. They may know when to get off, but don't move very fast. Try missing the WTC when northbound trains are running over the bridge. You and I know it's possible to walk from Rector, but they probably don't and will have to take the long way around Brooklyn.
In any case, I'm saying is that these types of GOs should be avoided but if necessary, run a shuttle bus or train. If there is a GO for the Montague, why can't they run a Canal-Whitehall shuttle? Or single-track?
See my other post on proper communication of GO's. I agree that there are serious problems with the current system.
However, I don't see an N/R reroute as any worse than many GO's that occur on a regular basis. What makes you think the backtracking is clear-cut on the G/F GO? If anything, passengers will assume they can transfer across the platform at Hoyt to the Manhattan-bound A/C if they don't realize that the G shuttle is single-tracked on the Queens-bound track. (When I rode the G two weeks ago, I didn't see a single sign warning passengers of this change.) I don't think the other two crossovers are signed any better than the average one. And for someone who's already boarded at East Broadway during the aforementioned GO, there's no option but to ride to Brooklyn -- the transfer to the J is only available to those daring enough to walk the tracks (which, I suppose, isn't all that daring since, after all, trains aren't running). Again, when I was there, I didn't see a single sign posted at platform level -- when a Brooklyn-bound train finally arrived after a long wait, a good number of passengers remained on the platform (I tried to talk a handful into boarding so they wouldn't be stuck waiting until Monday morning).
The very common B-on-Sea-Beach GO is more of a detour than the N/R via bridge, and for those going only a few stops, it's a long, slow ride back.
Really, the only difference is that more tourists ride the N/R. But tourists are more likely to see posters than regular riders, so, if anything, that's an advantage. There's absolutely no need for an explicit shuttle bus: the M6 already functions as one and the 1/9 and 4/5 are in spitting distance.
((N) (R) - LATE NIGHT / WEEK END Trains run express from DeKalb ave to Canal st. Passengers wishing to travel to stations City Hall
through Lawrence from Brooklyn must take a northbound N, R, or Q to Canal st, where you can transfer to a Southbound N or R. Passengers wishing to travel from stations City Hall through Lawrence to Manhattan and Queens must take a southbound N or R to Dekalb ave, where you can transfer to a northbound N, R, or Q.)
That's the opposite of my official recommendation for the Manhattan Bridge before I left City Planning. I proposed building the Rutgers connection, and connecting the Nassau Street line to Grand Street via Park Row, perhaps as part of a lower 2nd Avenue line.
The bridge would then be used during RUSH HOURS only, decreasing weekly traffic (and thus wear and tear) by 80 percent plus, and making maintenance a breeze.
Possible "base" routings:
F: 8+ tph 6th Avenue local via Rutgers.
D: 6+ tph 6th Avenue express via new connection, Rutgers
V: 6+ tph 6th Avenue local via new connection, Rutgers.
B: 6+ tph 6th Avenue express via Montigue, Nassau, new connection to Grand.
N: 6+ tph Broadway local via Montigue.
R: 6+ tph Broadway local via Montigue.
That's all the service you have today during non-rush hours, with room for significantly more, and no use of the bridge.
Over the last week or so there has been an 10 car train of R33 cars sittin on the inside Queens bound local tracks. why are they there? does anybody know?
Read the TWO previous threads on this issue, including one started the day before this one.
David
Does Ashmont have turnstiles?
Where is Ashmont? What system serves it?
The MBTA serves it. Ashmont station is where the red subway line ends and the streetcar extension starts.
-Robert King
yes it does. south bound trains end at a platfrom where across the platform transfers can be made to street cars and busses. inbound platforms have turnstiles on the left across from the buss drop off.
There's a program in place to lower the height of these turnstiles because too many people were getting hurt jumping them! ;-)
The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority or you can just call it the t.
With a capital T!
-Robert King
There is a loop at both ends (Ashmont & Mattapan).
Mr (small)t__:^)
I hate to throw cold water on the upcoming "V" train party, but I was thinking the new service will slow down Queens Blvd. express service even more. I remember how fast it was when I was in grade school in the 70s (I know how bad the system was back then, but the E/F expresses still flew). Now it's a shadow of that.
Anyway, as it is now, when you're on the E leaving 7th Avenue, often you have to wait for a F to cross in front by 5th Avenue, then wait some more for the F to get moving. I don't know what it's like on the F coming up 6th Ave, but I'm sure it's similar.
Once the V starts, there will be a merge along 53rd street, as now, then ANOTHER merge-up just beyond Queens Plaza , once the F joins in. Two merges instead of one.
Manhattan bound, the E will have to merge with the F just east of Union Turnpike, as now, but will also have to wait for the V to merge in at Queens Plaza, only to have the V turn off after 5th Avenue.
All this crossing over seems to me that it'll slow things a lot. I suppose there's a benefit in terms of having an alternate to the 53rd Street tunnel- if a train's stuck there, the 63 rd St. tube can be used, and then with a fancy move at West 4th, the E, F, or V can get back on track....
Any thoughts, people? I'd be particularly interested in hearing from any T/O's...
Which train enters Queens Plaza First
What Time in the day it is
If the V train barely arrives before the E then the V sadly will go first, if the E gets there first it leaves first. If the E trains come more frequently they might hold a E once and a while.
It all depends on where the ball bounces
The train register sheet pre-determines which train goes in front of the other. A train is only placed ahead if the other is not in the area.
You make alot of sense, to me at least.
Why couldn't they just run the V through the connector?
They can't run the V through the connector because that would make it worthless as the 63rd St train is running local, and they can't make the V run express because there's no room and then something would have to be drawn up to run through 63rd St when the V isn't running. That's why the F through 63rd fits in perfectly.
so why not make the F the local,run it to Church Avenue,use the V as an express on Queens Blvd,6 av and Smith st? Wasnt it the plan to run the F local anyway when the V line was up and running from 179 st? Both routes would begin at 179 st[V express, Flocal]where as the V would diverge into 63 st,F present headings into Manhattan. The Vwould be the 6 ave express and run as that to West 4th st,where it would rejoin the F along the local tracks to Jay street.V trains would operate on the lower level express tracks to Church ave while Ftrains would run on the local tracks and terminte there except rush hours. Riders in Park Slope would not loose direct 6 ave service,and riders from Queens would gain a service that didnt exist before-6 avenue express routing to and from Jamaica on 6 avenue.
Umm... If you switch the F and V trains in your plan, then service would almost be the same as it is now (in Queens) except only one train heads to Jamaica. Doesn't help. Unfortunately, the current plan is the best one they can make, since no other works. PLus there's no way the V can run on 6 Ave. because the B and D still need 34th Street. And there will probably be no Culver express for a long time.
So why cant the B/D trains run to the WTC via the local and E trains to Brooklyn via FULTON express? And by the way, i was talking about service after the bridge work was over,even though i did not state that fact.
Ok, so the 63rd Street train is running local. There was never a 63rd Street train to begin with.
The V is essentially replacing the G, which everyone said was worthless because it didn't go to Manhattan. So now there is more local service to Manhattan, and that is through 63rd Street.
I can see New Flyer's point, this good really mess up E and F service with all the converging in and out.
The 63 St tunnel was mainly to relieve the crowding in the E and F trains (such as when the people exit from the G train at Queens Plaza or Roosevelt and corss the platform), a V train through 63 Street doesn't relieve it because no one wants to go to 63 Street and people who want to go to 6 Ave. would want to take a Queens express train because it's available, so that does nothing to relieve that crowding. And F trains should not see much delay with the current plan, it's only the E and V trains on the 53 St. tunnel, but since there seems to be no other way to avoid it (63 St tunnel wasn't designed for connection to Queens Blvd anyway) unless they do some major reconfiguration of track work, there's no way around these problems.
I agree with the last posting there's not much avoiding these problems. I guess the point of my roiginal posting was to solicit thoughts to see if anybody (and quite a few people seem to!) agree with my thinkign that all this merging or whatever (maybe sombody can give me the right NYCT terminology, BTW) might cause delays.
I had also thought, and I see concourrence here that basically the F/Express has to go thru 63rd Street, as nobody would take a local that runs an even longer route. Personally, I often take a local nowadays, such as on Lexington Ave, as they're less crowded (hence the F thrru 63rd/V thru 53rd), and with all the timer signals and other s***, expresses ain't what they used to be.
Basically, what this plan does is reroute one express and make room for an additional local to Queens.
Before the 63rd St line: 3 express trains (E,F, 7 Exp) to Queens; 3 locals (N,R, 7 local) to Queens
After the 63rd St line (with Connector): 3 express trains, as above, but F is rerouted; 4 local trains (N,R,V,7 local)
By then, be sure to toss in the W.
Oh yes, sorry.
So that would make four expresses and four locals, at least for the next three years (until the north Manny B tracks open again).
The E Line will be the most affected from these changes. While the F will be the least affected because of the lack of connections along the 63rd route.
If this is going to work, the E line must be more frequent than it current schedule. It must handle former F riders who uses the 53rd Street Station.
Any other suggestions?
N Bwy LOCAL
Part of what the MTA's new plan does is redistribute Sixth Av riders. The new F train will carry people headed for the east 60's, Roosevelt Island, LIC and Queens east of Jackson Heights. The V will pick up people headed mostly for local stops west of Jackson Heights, with some headed for local stops west of 71-Continental. At 53rd and Lex, the V and the E will redistribute similarly: the V will pick up local riders, the E express riders. That's a much better offer of services at that stop, Queensbound, than what happens now. 53rd/Lex becomes a more useful station than it did before, because the trains will serve riders better. As to frequency of E service, I think the passenger redistribution will demonstrate its utility even without any changes.
While there are some challenges for dispatching trains through the tracks, I really don't think a lot of the complications being spun on Subtalk are going to be an issue. From a passenger's perspective, the MTA's 63rd St implementation makes a lot of sense. It is a very good plan, and I think it will work very well. One can always tweak, of course.
I agree with what you just wrote Ron. But the other question is whether passengers would choice the E over the V when they can get the R at Queens Blvd. Also, they are still many passengers who will be using F train stations above 71st Street Continental. Unless they decide to run the V all the way to 179th Street. But still, people would want to have faster service and the E seems to be the best bet so far.
The plan of putting the F at 63rd Street is a good idea. However, the plan of maintaining the same service is an awful idea because of what was previously written.
My proposal would call for running the E more frequent than any other line.... possibly every 2.5 minutes like the F train now. And run the F every 5 minutes like the E train now.
N Bwy Line
Certainly the E could always use more service frequency. There's no shortage of peeople in Queens who want it.
As to the R vs. V, well, if you're closer to Broadway in Manhattan, you'll take the R; if along Sixth Av, you'll take the V. Coming from Queens in the morning, you'll take whichever train gets you closer to work.
I thought I read in a previous post that because of the track configuration at Jamaica Center on the "E" it can only handle 12 TPH turnarounds or 5 minute headways.
Well, that's not true because I have actually seen E's arrive at my platform closer than 5 minutes apart (example: when I just missed one).
Yes, and I'll bet the train you just missed had a gap longer than 5 minutes between it and the one before it. I have seen them turn trains at Jamaica, there is no way any more than 12 trains can turn there. There is often one train waiting at Sutphin. What they could do to increase E train service is to run a few to 179th, which has abundant train-turning power (though the F would have to be turned on the lower level relay, which is usually used for train storage).
6th Ave-53rd St train must run local so as to connect G riders with Eastern Queens directly. If this message has been already posted I'm sorry my computer froze.
If they restored the Hillside express and extended the V to 179 st. I don't think it would be bad to have the V go through the 63 st. tube. The 63 st. tube is not worthless, it is a great asset if a train lays down. Yes it will be the same through 53 st. if the F were to continue to 53 st. as far as the amount of trains but how many V's will there be? People will ride the V. How many people are going to get off the F at some point to catch the Lex.? I feel the same as others that say that the TA is justifying the 63 st. tube by sending the F through. I wouldn't have a problem with it but I think Queens Blvd. will become even slower with another split and merge. As for the V when it is not running, just shift the F to 63 st. If I am mistaken the TA is concerned about relieving the overcrowding conditions so I hope when the new line starts they will have personel out to see the levels of people on the trains and see how it compares to the studies they conducted before. We will also have to rely on Subtalkers out there to see if the service is slowing down.
I feel the line will speed up, simply because the F and E only share for a grand total of two station stops. Since those two lines will have the most TPH on Queens Blvd, reducing the number of stops those lines share will help keep trains moving at a good speed.
The V will run less frequently than the F, so the splits / merges at 5th will be lessened. Of course, the 63st merge will be the same, but both the E and the F will move at a decent speed in both directions as long as they're separate. Even if the E does consistently get plugged by a V, it will still move faster because the track capacity is freed up more.
Now here is a simple yet very logical modification to the V train route. Instead of having it terminate at 2nd Ave, where very few people are going, why not have it use the connecting tracks at West 4th and run it to WTC, where lots of people are going. And while you're at it, have E trains run express and to Euclid via Fultono local, and C trains run to WTC, but more frequently that every 9-10 minutes. This would eliminate the need for crossing over at Canal, and provide better service to the downtown area and Brooklyn, as well as making for a more effective V train.
You've just eliminated local service from 8th Avenue to Brooklyn.
And how do you expect to turn both the C and the V at WTC?
[You've just eliminated local service from 8th Avenue to Brooklyn.]
From 23rd and Spring St only.
[And how do you expect to turn both the C and the V at WTC? ]
C 6 tph, V, I believe 9 or 10 tph, I don't see a problem.
Arti
From 23rd and Spring St only.
And all points north of 59th. (In other words, 50th will be the only local station to have service to Brooklyn.)
There's really no point having two express services and only one local service on 8th Avenue. The express doesn't gain much time since it only bypasses two or three stations south of 59th; with only the C serving local stations, those local stations will have worse service than just about any other station in Manhattan (except Broad Street and the only two stations in Manhattan currently served by only the C, 155th and 163rd).
[And all points north of 59th. (In other words, 50th will be the only local station to have service to Brooklyn.) ]
I don't think that would impact too many commuters.
[There's really no point having two express services and only one local service on 8th Avenue. The express doesn't gain much time since it only bypasses two or three stations south of 59th; with only the C serving local stations, those local stations will have worse service than just about any other station in Manhattan (except Broad Street and the only two stations in Manhattan currently served by only the C, 155th and 163rd). ]
I'd say the track capacity could be an issue as you'll be adding another local (V) at w4th st. Only 1 (23rd) will have significantly reduced local service.
Arti
As of two days ago, 17 lengths of guideway remain to be installed over the Van Wyck. Call it 9 weeks at the current rate. Also 12 lengths of guideway remain to be installed next to Jamaica Station. (Work here is proceedings in parallel with the work over the Van Wyck.) Anyone care to guess how long to complete the station itself, not to mention installing rails, power supply, and signals?
Come to think of it, does Airtrain use signals? If it is fully automated, who would be there to see them?
If anyone is interested in seeing the LIRR concept of what the new Jamaica terminal will look like check out:
http://www.lirr.org/lirr/airtrain/airtrain.htm
Hmm, Penn Station to JFK in 40 minutes - never happen!!!!!!!!
Some at the PA, unofficially, and off the record, are predicting Labor Day for completion of the whole guideway (not including stations). Test runs could then begin on the Van Wyck portion.
Would that be BRT service on that date ?
BRT = Bus Rapid Transit, a new buzz word in the industry.
Just kidding here ....
Mr t__:^)
Webster's defines oxymoron as "a figure of speech in which opposite or contradictory ideas or terms are combined." They only use this long-winded definition because they never heard of BRT.
Don't some people out there (not the intelligent ones) think "New York" is an oxymoron? :0)
Not at all! There is a “York” in Yorkshire, England that dates from before Roman times. So, although by American standards, New York is a relatively old city, by global standards it’s a new city.
On the other hand, the behavior of some of the city’s elected officials could certainly be characterized as (oxy-)moronic! :-)
John
>>> Don't some people out there ... think "New York" is an oxymoron? <<<
Maybe not "New York", but certainly "New York rapid transit". :-)
Tom
Notice that the R word does not appear in the name of any transit entity in the NY Metro area.
Based on my observations, I would say that they might just do it, if the track work, wiring, etc. is being installed in tandem with the structural concrete work. Given the viewing angle from street level and the concrete sides that are being added onto the guideway a couple of weeks behind the erection of the guideway itself, I have no idea how far the track, wiring, etc. lags behind the structure.
I finally came across a vantage point from which to observe track-laying. I needed to visit the Delta terminal, and I parked on the third level of the Green Garage. On one side, one has a good view of trackwork (and old-style gauge guide lying there), no 3rd rail yet. Unless they erect more fencing, there be a good camera location to photograph a train leaving Terminal 4 for Terminal 3, if the inside track runs clockwise.
Taking photos of Airtrain will resemble the difficulty of getting higher than the #7 IRT to get a good shot, as some fellows have done from apartment houses along Queens Boulevard, Sunnyside.
last night i saw a new set of Bombardier R-142 being towed to E.180th.couldn't get the numbers but spotted 65 on one of the cars. yesterday, about 10 of them were running. I could be exaggerating because i lost count. it was basically after every other redbird, there was an R-142 behind it.
YES,
THIS IS WHAT THE @#%$! I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Whatever will they do with all that surplus red paint?
Paint some Els!
--Mark
Hi all,
Don't forget Wednesday is the 2001 Bus Fest and Transit Museum 25th Anniversary thingy at the museum. I think there is going to be a gathering of Bustalkers at 1pm -- Subtalkers invited too!
Anyone want to join me before or after for a run up to the Bronx, looking for redbirds & R142's? I'll go out on a limb and say meet at Park Place 2/3 station northbound head end at 8:30 am? Run up to the Bronx, and then head down to the Museum in time for the 1pm gathering? Thoughts?
-Dave
Yikes, I'd do it if it was later, maybe 10-11 or something like that I have no clue, 8:30's a bit too early for me :-)
10-11 doesn't give us enough time to get up to the Bronx then back down to Brooklyn Heights. Maybe meet us at the museum then...
Well I have off this Wednesday and theres a 99% chance I will drive from the Pocono's and come down. I hope to be at the Bus Fest and be with you on the field trip. I look foward to meeting some fellow subtalkers.
If you provide an approximate meeting time at 96th (and, if possible, some form of identification), I'll plan on being there. (8:45? 9:00? I don't know when you plan on actually getting on a train.) Unless I wake up earlier than planned, I'm not about to go down to Park Place only to retrace my steps back up.
I'm sure you'll recognize a group of rail nerds getting off at 96th St that early on a holiday morning :-)
9:00 at 96th St should be cool.
-Dave
That sounds good for me as well 9AM at 96 St. on the North end. I just hope the T/O don't know me.
Great. I'll probably be there, but don't wait for me if I'm not.
Redbird or R-142, or will you fight it out at Park Place?
For identification purposes, if I remember to bring it, I'll be wearing a button with a train and a blinking light. (I got it last week at the PC Expo Maxtor booth for topping an Acela train.)
I take it a Fun Pass would be in order for the day.
I'll try, but the SI Ferry doesn't arrive until 8:30ish. If I make it, I'll be at the north end of Chambers at either 8:34 or 8:40.
I'll have to pass. It's the Bus Stop Backyard Barbecue at my house on the 4th (all the kids in the neighborhood who got on the school bus with my kids at the same bus stop & their parents are coming over - yours truly is grilling :)
So that's why I'm chasing R-142s on the 2 line tomorrow (Monday 7/2) all day, camera in hand.
--Mark
I will be working on the No.6 Line tomorrow hopefully working on those R142A's.
I was on the Pelham Line from about 3pm to 7:30pm, stopped at just about every station north of Whitlock Ave. Took some video from the street, too. (I was on White Plains Road from 11:00am to 3pm, then again from 8pm - 10pm).
If you saw a guy with a videocamera wearing a SEPTA map T-shirt, that was me.
I can't tell you how many nice "hellos" I got from most of the T/Os I saw, both on Pelham and White Plains Road. In fact, one T/O was about to pull out of Elder Ave Manhattan-bound, but saw me with the camera videoing a R-142A running express to Pelham Bay over the Bronx River viaduct ... he held up the train about 20 seconds to allow me to get the R-142A in total. If he's one of you who frequents this board, a big "thank you" to him.
I *might" try again this Friday, but for sure, weather permitting, I'll be somewhere on the BMT southern division and the BMT Broadway Line on July 23rd, the first full weekday of the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop. Should be a very interesting day :)
--Mark
If you saw a guy with a videocamera wearing a SEPTA map T-shirt, that was me.
The videocamera was wearing a t-shirt?
Well, I have to disguise the camera SOMEHOW :)
--Mark
Right On!
Spoken like a true sub-lensman.
I and GreenSignL will probably be there. I say we go R-142, I haven't really had the chance to do an express with them.
Dan
Myself and Playland will be joining you on thi railfan trip, I'll bring a sign , playland is tall. see you wednsday.
8:30 AM??? Way too early. I see you at the Museum.
All,
I'm going to have to cancel out on that 8:30 am field trip, I have on call support tonight from 9pm to 9am. However I should still be at the museum for the 1pm gathering and if anyone wants to go afterwards... I'm going to try and make it out for a little while after work today and get some pix too.
Sorry folks! Sleep late! It's a holiday!
-Dave
I was on the White Plains Road line for a good part of Monday. Not too many R-142s were out. There are many more R-142As on Pelham than there are R-142s on the White Plains line. Oddly enough, I saw more R-142s at night than I did during the day.
--Mark
Dropped in at the Smithsonian Folklife Festival last Friday. The car is displayed nicely with an accessible ramp designed like a station platform. Several power converters kept the lights, doors, buzzers, etc operational. Individuals could sit in the cab and get a short instruction on how to drive a subway train.
But it was HOT out on the Mall.
The car is next to the Smithsonian Station on the Blue/Orange and Washington's transit really carries heavy loads.
Included in the area was a display by the so-called "muralists." One of the Transit operators noted he was even housed with a muralist in the hotel. He noted although they have promised not to practice their "art" they seemed to cringe as they tried to hold back their feelings as the stood inside the sparkling clean and polished subway car.
A few other visitors were heard to ask, "Is this really a New York subway car....it's TOO clean."
David Harrison
The bus was the only Air Conditioned display. Also, did you see the price of the food!! $5.00 for a plate of pasta.
Really!?!? What a bargain! Around here pasta goes for at least $6 a plate, and that's from the hole-in-the-wall restaurants.
How about that deal at the Villa Pizza at the Port Authority -
$5.50 for a slice of pizza!
Can't beat that one!
I went by on Saturday to get a close up. I had driven past it last Thursday, and at that time I didn't realize that #9056 did not have it's running gear.
Wayne
Has anybody seen this movie? It did nothing at the box office, I'm just wondering if it's worth renting. What is the movie about?
Get it, get it get it!!!!
You will like the movie. It's about a kid(Mark Wahlberg) who gets out of jail after serving time for auto theft. Once out, he hooks up with his friend(Joaquin Phoenix) who is working for a company that repairs subway cars.
Eventually, they go to the Sunnyside yards to sabotage the work of their competitors, in order to continue winning contracts. The movie takes off from there.
And if you're one of those people who likes to pay attention to the particulars, like the many on this board who like to point out the flaws in the Pelham 1-2-3, you'll have a blast.
The Yards is well worth the rental fee.
Thanks for the info. Which lines are featured in the movie? Is it set in a specific neighborhood or only in the yard?
Just wondering. Thanks again Marty.
I assume it all happens in Queens. At one point, Joaquin Phoenix tells a bartender that Mark Wahlberg is his "buddy from Francis Lewis High School". And Frank, the owner of the company that repairs the subway cars, lives in a mansion in Forest Hills.
I was trying to figure out where the house that Mark Wahlberg lived in was located. It looked like lower Long Island City. Let me know if you get the movie.
For sure, thanks again for the info.
Marty.
There's almost no actual subway footage. The one "yard" in the film is Sunnyside. There's also some brief shots inside a real TA shop, I'm guessing Coney Island but it's too short to tell for sure. It's an OK flick but it's really not about the subway...
That scene was shot in 207th Stret overhaul shop. The office was completely renovated for the movie. The last I heard, it was locked and unused.
From SEPTA: The one way fare from Trenton to Center City has gone from $5.00 to $7.00--a 40% increase!
This is worse than PATH's 50% increase since PATH has the quickcard which reduces the per ride cost to $1.20--only a 20% increase.
That is still cheaper than the NJ Transit ticket from New Brunswick to New York Penn - which is $7.75, and the distance from Trenton to Center City is greater, I believe.
SEPTA is just bringing their fares in line with what the rest of the world is doing.
That is still cheaper than the NJ Transit ticket from New Brunswick to New York Penn - which is $7.75, and the distance from Trenton to Center City is greater, I believe.
Is that peak of off peak? NJT gives significant discounts for off-peak travel. It also gives big discounts for travel to Newark. RTX to Newark is 10.50, or 5.25 each way (+1.50 for PATH). SEPTA charged $5 to Trentown for every single train (special Zone 6 fare) and now I suspect that it is charging $7 for every single train. As you can see, SEPTA is slightly out of line here.
SEPTA is just bringing their fares in line with what the rest of the world is doing.
The "everyone else is doing it" excuse is hardly acceptable.
Please note that due to the zone-based fares, people living in outer zones actually get very cheap fares for going long distances.
For example: Before the fare hike, a ticket from Manayunk or Wissahickon to Trenton was only $5! After the hike, a bit more, of course.
For example: Before the fare hike, a ticket from Manayunk or Wissahickon to Trenton was only $5! After the hike, a bit more, of course.
It was $6. Travel between 7 and 11 zones (ie "through" centre city) was $6, which was the maximum fare on SEPTA Regional Rail.
Why SEPTA isn't bright:
You do realize that all you have to do is buy day passes instead of train tickets, the price of the day pass is cheaper ($5.50) than the Zone 6 travel fare ($7) and is still good for any regional rail ride, via Center City excepted. Though it seems a shame to waste two day passes for every trip to Philly...
The hike should have simply given Zone 6 peak and off-peak fares the same as the Zone 5 peak fare. They decided to go nuts on this one. The RTX ticket discount is only $1 (and all I can get with that is 20 minutes long distance). That's still $3 more round trip. Purchasing two day passes and using them reduces the round trip fare increase to $1.
The RT is only good for off-peak (for SEPTA) and would be $13.50! The Day Pass is only sold in Philly.
As noted in a previous post, try and explain the Day Pass to many conductors. You'll have as easy a time as I have on an infrequent basis when I board at University City and ride through on R6. The conductors lift the tickets before arriving at 30th and don't leave stubs. On many trains the crews change at Suburban, then the new crews look for tickets after leaving Market East. Try and explain that to the conductor. It happened to me once, then I wised up and asked the conductor to leave the stub, and I continue to do so. One must keep in mind that I'm not the only one doing this and I can't for the life of me understand why the conductor can't leave the punched ticket in the clip so the new crew can see it.
Whether this is bad training, laziness, or what, who knows, but it continues on SEPTA, proving the 'not very bright' approach SEPTA has.
And, to top it all off, try and find an operator or conductor who won't look cross-eyed at the Day Pass (many of them never see it) or who will refuse to accept it. SEPTA has way too many fare instruments out there and the fares are too confusing.
My own thoughts:
1. Make transfers good for any direction for 1 1/2-2 hours. Many cities allow round trips, etc. This would also allow flexibility for people who need to stop at shops, doctors, day care, etc on their trips.
2. Make the base fare $1.50 but raise the token fare to $1.30. Not many people pay the base rate anyway. Why offer such a deep discount on tokens? Tokens bought in bulk (more than 5) should get the discount, while singles, 2-packs, etc could be at the normal fare value.
3. Transfers, similarly, could be a more even amount, such as 25 cents or 50 cents. 60 cents is ridiculous.
4. Collapse the Regional Rail zones by half, i.e. combine 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6. This is what the misguided change in Chestnut Hill and Cynwyd fare structures was trying to do.
5. Offer a better 'combo' fare for a combined transit/RR journey. Right now, with the exception of the 200-series routes, transit and RR don't interface fare-wise. They should if one agency is providing the service.
If this is followed, people will return.
By the way, my $2 rides today were no better than my $1.60 rides last week. Thank goodness I buy tokens!
Has anyone else seen this really strange 1988 English movie?
It is the story of a North Carolina doctor who is so addicted to model railroading that he drives his wife crazy! The "doc" seems like he might be a little nuts himself.
It was a poor excuse for a movie, but there were some really different HO railroad scenes, and even one O gauge three rail scene.
I can't say that I would want to recommend it though.
Today after meeting up with Robert B Division T/O (Rode with him on (L), he's damn good), I took the (A) from East New York back to the PABT to catch my bus home. When we pulled into H/S Street Station, on the BMT/IND Track Side of the Museum Tracks were a 10 car set of R-29 Redbirds with the South/Eastbound Motor #8637 still signed up for the (6) Line.
If any one knows, are these the "Museum" Units of Redbirds to be saved?
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
No Trevor, those R29's are being used for NYPD evacuation drills during the week by the Museum.
Thank Trevor for the good words. It was good to have someone from the board ride with me insteed of a TSS. At least you can't write me up if I did something wrong. Hope I some of you soon. Maybe and the Bus Fest on Wensday some of you guys meet up with me on my train. I will know what I am work then on Mondays.
Robert
Thank Trevor for the good words. It was good to have someone from the board ride with me insteed of a TSS. At least you can't write me up if I did something wrong. Hope I some of you soon. Maybe after the Bus Fest on Wensday some of you guys meet up with me on my train. I will know what I am work then on Mondays.
Robert
I don't know about the cars at Hoyt Street, but I've been observing an IRT Mainline Redbird (R-26/28/29 with the Green Stickers under the plates) down at Coney Island Yard, up against a bumping block. The cars have the old style windows, and the number appears to be 8696-97. I can't make the numbers out for sure, but I can't help but wonder if the cars at Coney Island aren't going to visit the scrapper, but may be preserved?
-Stef
Will the NCS be operating on July 4?
And if it is, would anyone be interested in going for a ride after the Transit Museum gathering? We could walk over the Manhattan Bridge to the WTC (or take the subway from Canal if we're really lazy and we all have unlimited cards) and ride PATH out to Newark.
Who else is going to take a few passes over the North side of the Manhattan Bridge this month? Who knows when we'll get to do it again. I sincerely hope I will not have to recount the North side to my grandchildren on my death bed. After all, the South side took around 2 decades to reopen.
What the hell are you complaining about Piasan? Let me tell you, the south side of the Manny B was completed and my Sea Beach got screwed royally when it was time to divvy up who went over the bridge. And when the north side is completed in ten, twenty, or thirty years, the Sea Beach will still most likely be stuck in that damn Montague Tunnel. If anyone has as right to be pissed off, it's me. And I am.
But Fred!
I take either the N or the R from WTC to Court St in Brooklyn. I, for one, am damn grateful that having two lines means that there is not too long a wait for a Rarely or Never!
John
I'm with you!
Much as express runs are enjoyable and are good for people going to the far ends of the line, those oft-forgotten local stops need ample service, too!
Last week I saw the 1983 movie "Trading Places" and the opening sequence had some pretty cool SEPTA scenes. They were taken at Frankford Terminal and you saw some Almond Joys and people getting buzzed through at a token booth. There was also a shot of some pretty retro looking SEPTA buses.
Second, there is a new Nike ad entitled "tag" that shows some guy playing a game of tag w/ basically eveyone else in the city. At the end he runs into a subway station and tried to get at the people in the subway train. Has anybody seen this ad? Can anyone ID the subway?
I just saw that ad, on FOX TV...I didn't catch the subway, but the doors closing on his arm looked like a typical MTA thing :-)
I'm pretty sure it's Toronto...
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
It is the Toronto subway with the TTC logo by the door removed. The only other subway with similar cars is the Ankara Turkey metro.
The Nike Ad is in the abandoned lower level at Bay Street Station on the Bloor-Danforth line in Toronto, Ontario Canada. I caught the name of the station "Bay" on one of the tiled colums shown in the ad.
Thursday morning, I discovered not one but two old subway maps still posted in stations.
The first was at Lex/63, at the front (west end) of the upper level platform, dating from 1994. It has the C instead of the B to the Bronx, Dean Street on the shuttle, the N cut back to 86th (or was that a different map I saw recently?), the midday M to Brooklyn, and only a handful of MetroCard stations. I took a picture but it probably won't be terribly legible.
The second was one stop later, at 57/6. Many of us know about the old 1974 map in this station, but IIRC someone reported here that it was gone. I'm afraid it's still there. It's just inside one of the fare control cages, facing out. You can see it through the glass or you can climb behind it inside fare control. The stand it's on isn't attached to anything, so you can turn it for a better view -- I would have done that to get a photo, but I have a feeling the S/A was already eyeing me and I didn't feel like getting arrested so early in the day.
There are old local maps all over the QB line, most of which show the G and N as QB Locals. There may be some on the 7 line, I know that there is one at 90th/Elmhurst. I wonder why they haven't been replaced.
Dan
Cool. Local stops only or express stops too?
One of the elevators at 168th has an old map (1998 or so) posted. I hope not too many riders take it seriously and expect to find the B at the station.
I presume you mean the neighborhood maps?
At Metropolitan on the M, there is a sticker on the map stating that on December 11th, there will be major bus and subway route changes and that this map will not be immediately updated, use the Subway and Bus guides until it is updated.
At Jay st, the Broadway lines still cross the bridge.
At DeKalb, there is a yellow line crossing the bridge, but no yellow routes are indicated (B D Q are in orange).
The Queens Blvd local ones, I've noticed, are all different for each station but still have the same copyright date (1987, I think). Oddly, Woodhaven Blvd was rehabbed yet retained the old map!
Interestingly, the Neighborhood map at 67th ave actually names my grammar school (Our Lady of the Angelus), PS 175, and gives the number code for Halsey Junior High School. My exact street address is also given as one of the ones that are thrown on to give you an idea of the addresses for the block.
But, the one at Woodhaven does not show such things, yet includes the same area. Odd...
No, I mean the regular subway maps. The 1974 map at 57/6 is the only one I know of still in the system that predates the current 1979 style.
I have seen old routes on many a neighborhood map, including the one at Jay you mention.
Which December 11 had major service changes? 1987, when Archer opened? I wasn't paying any attention to the subway back then.
Oh, sorry, I misread the thread tree. You were asking Dan if he meant the neighborhood maps. I'll let him answer for himself.
The sticker was referring to the Archer ave December 11th.
Oh, FWIW, there are maps from 1990 (N via bridge) and 1988 (B/D/Q via 6th) in a few of the Transit Museum's cars.
Talk about outdated!! I remember about 1981 riding a crowded "CC" train (r-10's of course), and still stuck on the panel was the 1969 map!! Can you imagine a tourist reading the map on the way to Rockaway and thinking that he had to wait for the "HH" at Broad Channel to go to Rockaway Park!! Or worse yet, waiting for the "E" express to go there!!!!
I do indeed mean the neighborhood maps.
Could the December 11th service changes mean the Williamsburg Bridge rehab? That did shut down all JMZ service over the bridge for a few months. I don't recall what time of year, however.
Dan
This reminds me of the 1940's map that used to be on the mezzanine at 149th St-Grand Concourse until the early 1970's.
Amazingly enough, it was never graffitied or otherwise defiled.
Check out the map on the mezzanine level of the PATH station at WTC (just behind the Internet kiosk). It still shows the JFK Express!
Some of PATH's own maps still show connections to the Erie-Lackawanna at Hoboken, and "Conrail" at Newark-Penn Station...
Amazing isn't it? As critical as we are that the agenicies don't update their maps, we are probably the only ones who appreciate the sense of history.
Amazing isn't it? As critical as we are that the agenicies don't update their maps, we are probably the only ones who appreciate the sense of history.
Sonehow at least those graffiti artists had some respect for history. BTW you still see some of the ancient NO SPITTING! signs in some of the stations. Surprisingly some of them are still in decent condition.
BMTJeff
When you get a map with the Sea Beach finally going over the Manhattan Bridge, then you can send me a copy. Oh yes, I will pay for both the map and postage. But it doesn't appear that I'll have to do that, does it?
I'm afraid that if I managed to remove a subway map from a station wall and tried to carry it home on the train, somebody, somewhere, would have me arrested.
Here's your argument if that happens:
You actually did society a favor because at some point, a hopelessly lost tourist, or even New Yorker, would find the map, and, taking advantage of a seemingly gift from heaven, would soon embark on a journey that would make them even more hopelessly lost, so even though there's no map there, at least they won't get set on the wrong track (pun, whatever) by a 25 year old map.
Also, by seeing that there's no map there, they would, if they have the sense of mind, would see the Station Agent and ask for a [current] map, which would prove a little more useful than said 25-year old map.
bullshit
In Philly, there's a great map in the tunnels under City Hall (SW corner), pre-Connector Tunnel. It shows lines to West Chester, Newtown, Allentown/Bethlehem, Reading, etc. Pretty cool.
Spring Garden on the El has the same map. I think I may have a picture, will post if I do...
Where can I find out the station usage info from LIRR? Also where's a good site for old pics of LIRR lines. I remember looking at this rather interesting site on LIRR line poles, the ones with green or blue insulators.
Here is a common scenario that us passengers are put through:
Roosevelt Ave., E F G R, rush hour, northbound island platform.
Five to eight express trains running N/B dump their load on Roosevelt. A percentage of those riders are transfering to the local G or R. About four or five 7 trains enter 74th, and a percentage of those riders race downstairs for a local as well. Also consider all the buses stopping at Roosevelt as well.
FINALLY, a local comes. It's a G. It's been a long wait, and the station is PACKED. The train is already heavy, but it's not quite standing room. Not yet anyway. But it's clear that everyone is not going to fit, especially in the last car, on a short train, where all those people from the end of the platform, now have to race to cram into the last car, which is a few feet shy of the entire length of the platform.
The conductor yells at the passengers from the spacious comfort of his/her transverse cab "please stand clear of the closing doors", and then gives us the old, "ladies and gentleman, there is a local train right behind us". But no one wants to hear it. Others don't understand the language the conductor is speaking.
I Love New York!
Typical.
I used to ride the 7 on the way home to Queens Plaza @ rush hour, but after having to beat on people just to get out of the train - people who all swarm the door and DO NOT let you get off unless you physically make a path for yourself, I decided the longer walk and slower ride direct on the N was a bit better.
NYC... an S/M love affair.
N can be brutal too. I lived in Astoria for over a year, before coming out here to Forest Hills.
I find that for whatever reason, the people at Roosevelt on the E F G R are more obnoxious than any other station when it comes to letting people off.
I'd like to offer may theory as to why, but I think I read something about not posting inflamatory remarks.
Someone told me that the city uses a practice of eliminating names on their lists of eligible candidates for city jobs, by lottery. For example, they might just go down a list, and call 2 out of every 3 names on the list for a job. If you are not one of the names called, you are automatically eliminated.
Maybe someone out there can tell me more about this.
I am on the list for Train Operator. My number is 740something. They are currently up to 718.
A month ago, I called to see what number they were up to. At the time they were up to 648, and told me that there would be a class in July. I was so sure that when going throught the list, they would arrive at my number. As of a week ago, there were up to number 718. The list advanced by only 70 candidates. There is another class "tentatively" scheduled for October.
70+ started on Memorial Day. Will try to get some numbers.
Your talking about the "One In Three" rule of cival service. An agency must call from an established list in order of the list. So you call numbers 1, 2, 3. But you are not required to hire Number one, you may interview all three and pick one of the three. So you are number 1 but they pick number 2.
You are not elminated but go back to the pool or list. The next call numbers 1,3,4 will be interviewd and if number 4 is taken the next call will be 1,3,5 and so forth. Number 3, next is 1,5,6.
The reason (if you look at the Chief and calls) that SO MANY people are called for so few spots (Numbers 1 to 285 are called for 4 positions of "yada yada" at the "dada" agency. Is that many many people don't answer the call or have gotten a job they don't want to leave for the city. In most tests there is a long time (years) between the test and when they start calling.
What amazes me is just how fast the NYCTA has moved with the current T/O list.
The Train Operator test was given in Feb of 2000, and by December, people were being hired.
And I am still waiting for my list for a test I took this March. Matter of fact Friday I got the notice that they are processing my test and to notify them of any address chagne.
Could you tell me how exactly getting hired to be a train operator for the MTA works? This is something I'm pretty curious about, though I'll be in school for at least another 2 years. It just always seemed to be that driving a subway was the coolest job.
Alan Ssott
Get the Chief paper and take the test. You can always decline later.
What's the chief paper?
and what's the test on?
(Totally ignorant here)
Thanks,
Alan Scott
It is a newspaper called "The Chief", also known to the public as the Civil Service Chief, that has all kinds of news relating to the hiring and working conditions ( contract negotiations, pension benefits, results of disciplinary actions ) related to civil service employees. It is available at most local newspaper dealers in the five boroughs for about 50 cents. You will find out when and where the civil service jobs are by reading it on a regular basis. There are books that you can get from most major booksellers which will give you practical insight as to what to expect on the upcoming civil service tests, and the titles are listed in the Chief. Good luck.
And for all our sakes, I hope you get sent to the B Div so you can experience those Queens Blvd GOs from our side.
Speaking of imaginary work, today, at 53/Lexington the escaltor that normally runs "down" was out of service. It was also blocked by a fence on both ends.
Was there any repair work being done? NO!
Were there huge lines of people waiting to cram down the stairs instead? YES!
What bothers me was the fact that no work was being done, and customers could have walked down both the stairs, and out of service escaltor, to avoid the disgusting long line, until some TA worker finally decides to try and fix the escalator.
You know, you complain a lot for someone who is LOOKING FORWARD to working for the TA.
Just wait until you get in!!!
I complain about being a passenger, and the hardships we face EVERYDAY with the TA. But I doubt the TA treats it's employees the way it treats it's customers.
>>>>>But I doubt the TA treats it's employees the way it treats it's customers.
Sometimes we get treated worse. You'll find out for yourself (and how). At least the TA treats everyone equally, like crap.
Do you get the feeling this person doesn't read ANYthing that we post?
Do you get the feeling this person doesn't read ANYthing that we post?
------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL
Heh. You'll see ... school car will spoil you too ... if you do it, enjoy the "regular hours" ... you won't see them again until you near retirement. But working for the TA is an everyday affair of watching your back and nursing stab wounds at regular intervals. You'll learn that a lot of five minutes here and there add up to plenty and there's lots of folks whose only hobby seems to be pulling the wings off flies in midflight.
If you love trains, this mitigates it to some degree. But still, it's like being in the military sometimes with about the same levels of logic prevailing. You'll see. They DO treat the geese better. :)
Regular hours? How's this:
7/9 Lefferts Blvd 0755 clear at 1625
7/10 Concourse Yd 0448 clear at 1258 (at 145 St)
7/11 Euclid Ave 0705 clear at 1505
7/12 179 St 0451 clear at 1309
7/13 Parsons/Archer 0700 clear at undetermined time no earlier than 1500
And that's just 5 days of posting. Monday I should get home at about 6:15pm and need to be up no later than 0330 Tuesday to make it on time.
My regular job has more 'nomal' hours than school car.
Wow ... my apologies ... back when I came on, they had LARGE classes and they tended to run 0745 to 1545 most days. In 1970 and 1971 they were hiring like there was no tomorrow and wanted to get us all posted as fast as possible.
>>>>>>........and wanted to get us all posted as fast as possible.
It's even faster nowadays. For example, the A to B transfer students such as the one and only Alex L. (God I hope there's only one) had their course time cut from 37 days to 25 days. I'm beginning to wonder if the TA is purposely trying to undermine it's T/O's by offering inadequate training.
I had a transfer student today. He told me that he had never been on an R44 before and that he only has one day's worth of posting on the A line. And that Training & Qualifications never arranged to practice on an R44.
There is a possibility that within the three one way journeys that he'll be posting on the A line that he will see only R38's. So when it comes time to covering a regular assignment on his own, he could be operating an R44 train that he has absolutely ZERO experience with. And you could be riding with him. It's not fair to the T/O or the riding public.
Yow ... well, back in 1971 it was 6 weeks for B division - but I had already been a conductor on the D (splits) and I ended up getting posted on the D. At THAT time, all we were shown was the R1/9's and the 32's and were told that if and when we had enough seniority to pilot the mighty bingbongs (42/44's) we'd go back to school car for that. Uh-huh. But yeah, there was a decided feeling that we were cramping up the system and the "ta" was gritting its teeth over the bowl looking to poot us out ...
Fortunately, I knew my run and I got the time on the oldies I needed before I hit the road ... but I remember my first day with a 32. Didn't much like it compared to what I was used to. Did so poor a job, they never gave me one again. :)
I don't know. I see T/O's and other employees of the TA, including several friends of mine who are T/O and Motor Instuctors, and they complain like crazy. But for some reason, a job with the TA does not seem to make a monster out of people.
My hatred for the NYCTA has grown over the years, especially the last two years. Why? Because I have gone from being a "buff", or a "fan", to being a legit passenger, who relies on the subway to get to work, school, and social functions. And I have seen just how bad things really are.
When I was a kid, five years old, I attended pre-school at the public library on Forest Ave. in Ridgewood, barely one block from the M train. If I was good in school, do you know what my reward was? Ice cream? I trip to the playground? Candy? No. It was a ride on the M train. That's how much I loved trains. I even made play handles to pretend I was driving the train when I was a kid.
Back to reality. I left work tonight at 11:45 from 72nd and Park and I arrived home in Forest Hills at 1:22. Almost two hours for a distance of 7 miles? That's sick.
I deal with overcrowding in trains, stairways, and long lines at the token booth too often. Much of this is unnecessary, or at least can be reduced, if the TA would care enough about the problems at hand. Instead, there are people still seriously considering a 2nd Ave line. It's a lost cause.
I did my fair share of whining too. Most jobs will do that. But there are SOME people in the system that can go out of their way to give you something to whine about without good reason for doing so. Sure, most of the folks I worked with were an absolute pleasure to be around. But every location had a few people that you just want to administer a proper slap job to. :)
I'm sure that factor hasn't changed much.
Didn't get a chance to get to work today. Had to take my wife to the hospital. Will hook up with my group tomorrow and find out those numbers.
Thanks.
Ok. Spoke to the guys. Most of the guys in the group are in the 400-450 range with one guy at 510. Was told that one of the guys in one of the other classes has a 600 number. Good luck.
I already had the chance to work with 2 of the New O/C T/O's. I didn't think they would put a Probationary O/C T/O and C/R together. I'm not going to comment on there operation but 1 of them can thank me for still having a job.
>>>>I'm not going to comment on there operation but 1 of them can thank me for still having a job
You just did. But in all fairness, a boo boo can happen to anybody.
(It was only one boo boo right?)
They are not supposed to put two probies on the same crew. If it happens again, point this out to the TD - if something happens down the road, he'll be joining the two of you at Jay St.
That actually happens all the time. I've never heard of that rule myself, only the one that a probie cannot take a student.
What was it that he or she did?
He just didn't have control of this train.
Overrun or hit a signal
Hooked up with a good friend today (Sunday) and did a little spelunking. First on the agenda was to find the old 36 St. mezzanine. We believe we fould it but alas we could not get in. It was told to us that there was a ladder but upon further inspection of the area we had concluded that this ladder was taken down and that a new doorway and associated walkway in the ceiling to the mezzanine was made. It belongs to the Signal Dept. The doorway is located on the northbound local. While being unsuccessful with that we did find the original tile on the walls south of the current station. It is the same design. We also went down to the original connection tunnels south of 36 St.(below the B connection). They are in amazingly good condition with very little water. Next we tackled the old Nassau loop tracks. Got off at Canal and seen a 4 car set of R68's familiarizing T/O's on the Broadway side. Got to the J platform and walked. The tracks (loop) take a sharp curve right behind the wall at Canal and head right for the bridge. The two tracks are in surprisingly good condition and end in bumping blocks right before the Broadway tracks. There was a post that had said that one track had continued on further but it was actually the Broadway tracks that this person had seen. We walked back to Chambers and took a look around. What is the MTA waiting for? The whole place to fall down? Walked the old outside platform and found two old light fixtures still left. Those black ones that are round and looked like they belonged in a dungeon. Some of those staircases on the old platform that go to other mezzanines were all sealed up. What is with that wood partition on the unused center platform? Went to Essex next. Never realized there was the old tower on the south end of the Jamaica platform. Went exploring around the new tower. South of the tower there appears to be room for two trackways. The one next to the far wall was tiled (just plain white). It was here that I found a single seat (passenger) from an R16. The whole area around the tower is just a maze of rooms. We found another room that was perpendicular to the trackway we found and that was tiled also. These rooms were altered when the F and IND came to town and found the abandoned IND mezzanine. Newer white tile with a baby blue band toward the ceiling line. They are still doing work in the area and seen that the token booth has been taken away. We continued and came upon the old trolley loops. The rails in the cobblestone were there as well as some of the overhead. Nicely perserved, just dirty. We continued to the approach of the Willy-B where the tracks end at the roadway abutment. We also saw what we believe to be a tower or dispatchers office in the area of the loop tracks. Lastly we ventured to Roosevelt Ave. Went to the north end and down the long corridor and found what was left. We were impressed. The beginning of the hallway was where the platform had started so there is only about 4 cars left of platform. It is a modified TA storeroom covered with dust. Two trackways and an island platform. Anything and everything stored pretty much all over the place but not that bad at all as to not see it. Tilework all there with a dark blue band. A tower/dispatcher's office at the north end of the platform but locked up. Proceeding past the station was something else. There is a steel wall put up right at the stations end but a doorway was open. It just opens up to this great big area. Just north of the station was the provision for a diamond crossover. We continued to see how far the tunnels go. It goes a decent distance, about a block. At the end of the trackway is an emergency exit. Left goes up to the street and the right goes down to the northbound local of the Queens Blvd. line. The line, if it was continued was indeed heading south like the Phase II plan. The trackway from the southbound side of the Queens Blvd. (heads upward, northward from Roosevelt Ave.) meets the southbound track of the unbuilt line. They are side by side when the tunnel ends. The tunnel was not built far enough for the 2 tracks to merge. The northbound connecting track from Queens Blvd. is just a bellmouth off the northbound local. It was a good day.
>There was a post that had said that one track had continued on further but it was actually the Broadway tracks that this person had seen.
Oh, so you remember that. After I thought about it, I figured it might be the Broadway tracks, but I had remembered the merger of the Bway tunnel and the loop tunnel as being closer to the portal. (You couldn't even see daylight from the bumping block area).
I wanted to go check it out for myself, but I don't want to go snooping in places like that if I'm not on duty laying/picking up a train there. People also access the Canal St. exp platform directly from the layup area. I thought it would have been far, but I guess it's right around the corner.
Not far at all.
Thats the spirit, IM glad to see a "subtalker" keeping Urban Exploration alive. Learn from this guy people.
Thanks. It was fun getting to see what you can't see.
exactly, thats the point, if youre into that sort of thing, give me an email
I was watching the movie "The Train Robbers" (1973) this evening, and although it does not have enough railroad scenes to cause a railfan to rent it, there were a couple of things that maybe a historian can answer for me.
1. > In the opening scene, a train pulls into a small desert tank town (but does not stop to take on water). It appears that the tracks are on wooden ties just sitting on the desert floor without any sort of roadbed. Were railroads built like that in the desert in the second half of the 19th century? The movie is set in post civil war time, about 1874. (The tracks were also unbelievably straight, but I assume that is because they were laid just before the scene was shot.)
2. > In a scene where a posse arrives on flat cars and the horses jump off, it is clear that the flatcars are very well sprung, and one of the trucks that is in the scene looks just like the trucks you would see on a modern flat car. Has this design been around for 125 years, or did the film makers just not care about authenticity?
Tom
<< > In the opening scene, a train pulls into a small desert tank town (but does not stop to take on water). It appears that the tracks are on wooden ties just sitting on the desert floor without any sort of roadbed. Were railroads built like that in the desert in the second half of the 19th century? >>
Yes. If you read Steven Ambrose's book, "Nothing Like It In The World," about the building of the Transcontinental railroad, you'll see that both the CP and UP initially laid some trackwork with a bare minimum of ballast, sometimes none at all, in their rush to get the tracks laid. The railroads were paid by the federal government by the mile so the faster they laid rails, the faster they were paid.
Guess I'll go for question 2: Unless there's a vague visual similarity in trucks, NO. Especially if roller bearing journals are plainly visible instead of the box with the lift door at each axle.
Go back to mybe 1960...or from there another 20 years back, and the big favorite for freight cars of the time was the Bettendorf truck; before that there were archbars and many others.
Passenger cars....some but not all modern trucks have a vaguely similar appearance to some of 100 years ago; of course not identical.
r46 ebay item
I don't know why I didn't ask this earlier, but here it goes:
Why do Tube trains have "OPEN" bottons at each door? I've seen such bottons in use on the intercity trains, and I understand the Paris Metro uses such bottons, but on every Tube train I rode, the doors always opened automatically just like in the US. What's the deal?
-- David
Chicago, IL
LT has been trying passenger door open, and then giving up, for decades. Their advantage is that they keep the heat in during winter. Their disadvantage is that they keep the heat in during summer. Oh yes, and also stupid passengers who don't understand that when a button marked open lights up when the train comes to a stop, it might be a good idea to press the button if they want the doors to open. The last one means that LT has abandoned the system again.
I thought the system was only in use during the winter.
FWIW, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail has a similar system, and I almost missed a train because of it.
On the D Stock we able to operate the doors in several ways. The TOs Open buttons lit the Door Open Button by each passenger door.
In hot weather, once at least one door was opened on each car if you hit Selective Reopen it a opened all the car doors and switched off the open lights, so you could cool the cars down more at stations. It also speeded up Passenger flow at busy stations. If you weren't sure they all opened you could reactivate the Open lights with the Open buttons. It wasn't so bad after they rebuilt all the stock in the mid 80s with improved ventilation fans.
Various ways of door control have been used over the years: some O/P/Q/R Stock had door buttons in the 30s and the renovated Standard Stock for the Central Line extension of 1947 used it until the late 50s.
Selective open is fitted to D stock (District), 1992 stock (central/Waterloo-City) and 1995 (Northern)-1996 (Jubilee)
A switch in the cab that can only be operated by depot staff enables the doors to be opened by the train operator or by the passenger. As Max has stated it allows only doors needed for exit/entry to be opened thus preserving heat/keeping the rain out etc on stock fitted that each work 'out in the open'.
However the drawback is even though the buttons are marked 'when illuminated press to open' some passengers don't notice this and it creates safety problems when they then try to board a train departing.
Know as the PTI (Passenger Train Interface) London Underground has led a campaign to improve safety with PTI and these selective doors are one of the items on the list. Other changes include fitting inter-car barriers (or curtains) similar to the pantograoh gates stateside.
Regards
Rob:^)
London UK
P.S. the first tube cars of the latter day era fitted with these doors were the 1983 stock sadly no longer with us!
P.S. the first tube cars of the latter day era fitted with these doors were the 1983 stock sadly no longer with us!
When I see "sadly no longer with us" in the same sentence as "1983 stock", I can only hope that you accidentally transposed the last two digits in 1983 :)
-Robert King
No, they actually scrapped the 1983 stock a couple years back. They had single door openings and it proved to be a big pain in the neck for people to get on & off. And they couldn't find a suitable plan to overhaul the cars to have two door openings, so they scrapped them.
Can you say, waste-o-$$$?
Actually it was a waste of ŁŁŁŁŁŁs! :-)
John
I was attempting to poke fun at the very crappy 1983 stock. There were a lot more things wrong with those trains than just the size of the doorways.
-Robert King
What else was wrong ?
Simon
Swindon UK
I had the misfortune to qualify for 83 Tube Stock and the even greater misfortune of having to drive it. The braking/control system was a nightmare - specially out on the Met Main in bad weather. Designed by a maniac, the "balance beam and ballbearing on a jet of air" brake was even weaker and more dangerous than the Westcode fitted to the DR "D" Stock and always failing - probably cost a fortune to maintain - good riddance!!
There were lots of equipment problems with the 1983 stock in general. In addition to the control equipment being of poor quality, the motor alternators were very unreliable and prone to failure. Those trains were low quality in nearly all respects. I'm sure you can list more examples of problems with the 1983 stock.
-Robert King
Which lines ran the 1983 stock? I was in London a few times in the late 80's. I remember the District had cars that seemed fairly new and had the buttons. (I didn't see the buttons anywhere else, for that matter. I mostly rode the District, Circle, and Piccadilly.)
83 Tube Stock was used on the Jubilee Line in its Stanmore to Charing - Cross incarnation.
The "D" Stock on the District had similar single leaf doors, and predated it by a couple of years. It had far superior control and handling, tho' the Westcode brake was a bastard at stops like Sloane Square Eastbound.
The "D" Stock design was also the precursor of the Singapore Metro stock, which LT was consulting for.
I just cannot understand why the suits at LUL would make a train built in the 80's look like it was built in the 60's.
Oh well, too late now. At least the new Jubilee and Northern Line stock (GEC Alsthom) are good lookers.
A lot of what happened from 1970 to 1984 was due to the major standoff between management and unions - the first OPO (One Man Operation) Cameras and Monitors installed on the H&C and Circle in the 70s had to be replaced when it eventually was introduced in the 80s.
The "D" Stock was very expensive and considered to be over-engineered, even tho' it's control/brake sytem was a marvel of simplicity.
As a result the 83 stock was a penny pinching exercise by the suits and made it hell to operate - the visibilty was atrocious, with completely flat drivers windows.
BTW, if you don't mind, a few questions that I'd like to ask:
1) How does the management treat you guys? Is supervision a pain in the arse?
2) Are the LUL drivers able to pick steady runs and steady days off? I've heard otherwise.
3) From an earlier post, you said that you are working on the H&C. In a given day, how many round trips do you make?
4) Are you able to switch lines without a great deal of difficulty? For example, you're currently working the H&C, and now you wish to transfer to the District Line.
5) Any shot of sending your 8 weeks vacation policy over here? :)
First I have to say I retired from the Underground nearly 10 years ago and its changed a lot since then.
We worked to agreements made and modified with management over the years - on the Central we worked to the agreements made when "gatemen" were replaced with conductors in the early 1900s - ie when sliding doors replaced end-of-car gates and the train crew went down from 5 to 2. (Gateman's cash allowance was paid quarterly - a few Pounds - up to abolishment around 1985!)
On the District we worked to the 1905 "steam" agreements - 1905 being when electictifiaction took place.
It was all pretty old fashioned - but we just worked to whatever the agreement was - a turn with "spare" on the 2nd half meant you went to the Station Manager at the end of the first half and asked if he had a job, if he said "no" you went home.
With upwards of 300 crews at a Depot you could swap duties easily. Many Depots had "Mafias" - the best was at White City on the Central. The Godfather (one of the Drivers) had an unoffical agreement with local management, and he allocated you one of your favorite turns each week in place of the one you were rostered for. He matched up the preferences of the people in the Mafia (about 75 drivers) - in the 3 years I worked there I nearly always did a turn that started between 7am and 8 am.
As to the amount of work on a turn - the maximum was about 3 1/4 hours on the first half which was 3 or 4 times round the Circle or the same number of Hammersmith/Barkings on the H&C rostas, usually followed by 2 hours on the second.
A turn could end at the other end of the line, but return to depot time ("booking off") was included in the roster.
It was cranked up tighter when management got the upper hand in the Thatcherite era, and the agreements were replaced when One Person Operation came in in the 80s (we had women crews by then so they renamed them One Person instead of One Man).
You could change Depots every 5 years I think, but we used to advertise at the Depot we wanted to go to next, and swap with someone after about a minmum of 6 months - thats how I got off the Jubilee and the terrible 83 Stock after a few months.
From Sydney, may I put a question or three please?
I gather drivers (operators) are allocated to a depot and work all turns (rosters) at that depot throughout their time there based on the roster. But driving on one line, say the Central, must get a bit boring, so how often can drivers change lines/depots?
If I were based at Neasden, would I work on both the Met and Jubilee lines, or one and not the other, for example? Would an operator work on one line before his break and the other afterwards, for example?
Thirdly, the District D stock. These have door opening buttons for passengers from the first day and I was in London again last month, and they were still working quite well both from passenger and train perspective.
Are they just a good job, or what - that is a pretty highly stressed line at times, so they can't be too bad.
Do Circle line trains continue circling now, or do they terminate at an intermediate point and return. I noted a few with Faringdon St and Edgeware Rd, for example in the short time in London.
Cheers and thanks for your input over the last few days.
Ian
Do Circle line trains continue circling now, or do they terminate at an intermediate point and return. I noted a few with Faringdon St and Edgeware Rd, for example in the short time in London.
They continue to make the full circle. However, I think they use certain stations as waypoints to indicate to passengers which direction they're heading around the circle.
-- David
Chicago, IL
When I have seen Circle Line trains with destinations on them, they have been going out of service and those have been the last stations.
The directions on the Circle Line are constant: the outer track goes clockwise, the inner track anticlockwise (or counterclockwise if there are Americans on the train!)
John
Clockwise Circle are known as "Outer Rail" to Operators, and the inner direction "Inner Rail".
They run continuosly throughout traffic in one direction from about 5am to midnight.
Over years of running it was been found that stock needed ro be reversed round triangle points such as Alsgate to run both rails equally as wheel tyres wore down more on the inner side of the trucks, casuing the stock to lean over!!!
Traditionally the Circle was operatied by the Met and District out of Neasden, Hammersmith, Whitechapel & Parsons Green, with the District doing most of turns on Sundays to keep them up to par.
However it is now nearly all a Neasden Rosta, with Trains starting down the Met Main then out onto the Circle, with some reversing along the way at various turn round stations to provide the opposite service.
It is not a big service - in my day about 5 or 6 in each direction.
The stock is "C" Stock built 1969/77 with a curious electro-pneumatic/electronic control system with permanent series motor pairs, rheostatic brakes, EP/Westinghouse brake (as per all clasic transit)and the most alarming wheelspin/slide tendencies. Very jerky and uneven to operate, but fitted with 4 sets of double doors per car and minimal seating to allow maximum loading.
It is also used on the H&C and District Wimbledon - Edgware Road locals, and can be seen reversing at all sorts of odd spots round the Met and District, so you have to check the Destination Indicator as you can never be to sure where they're going. I've operated one express over the Hammersmith - Acton road to Ealing, to the confusion of everyone!!
I've always said that some of the LU lines need side destination signs such as the ones on the new GEC Alsthom trains.
Personally I HATED riding and waiting for a Circle Line train. I know that it has to go through many interlockings causing delays, but knowing the reason doesn't make the endless waits any easier.
Over years of running it was been found that stock needed ro be reversed round triangle points
Are you referring to a turning wye?
Yes, on the West End Met and District, trains were turned via Earls Court, High St Kensington and Gloucester Rd and on the East End between Tower Hill, Aldgate and Aldgate East or they could be run right round the Circle and then swapped over to the opposite road
As the Circle Line uses the same (C) stock as the Hammersmith & City Line (also the Edgware Rd-Wimbledon part of the District Line) you need to observe the following easy guide!
Circle Line requires 14 trains, 7 outer rail,7 inner rail
Train numbers are displayed on the front cab door as
201 thru 207 (outer)
211 thru 217 (inner).
Hammersmith and City needs 22 trains
Wimledon-Edgware Rd needs 10 trains
Destinations on the circle line should just read Circle Line so any train showing Farringdon etc may be a Hammersmith and City train terminating short of its destination.
Some more facts 138 x 2 car units are on the roster making 46 x 6 car trains ( formed 3 units: motor-trailer,trailer-motor,trailer-motor).
Rob:^)
On the platform signs, it would say, for example at Bayswater, the clockwise direction would say "Circle Line via Baker St." and for counterclockwise it would say "Circle Line via Victoria"
Some District line trains would terminate at the middle track at Tower Hill, do some Circle line trains ever end there?
A far as I am aware, no.
Simon
Swindon UK
I have heard that during recent disruptions due to engineering work, oddities such as Hammersmith to Whitechapel via the Circle Line have run. Don't know what destination signs were used though as I have never seen one.
I guess I missed it then -- the Jubilee was one line I never got around to riding. (I also never rode the East London or the W&C. The H&C, at the time, was just one branch of the Metropolitan; I'm not sure if I rode both. Oh, and I did ride the DLR, not long after it opened.)
I remember old trains on the Northern line (Charing Cross - Edgware branch, if it makes a difference). Was that 1938 stock?
>>>>I remember old trains on the Northern line (Charing Cross - Edgware branch, if it makes a difference). Was that 1938 stock?
I believe that was 1959 stock. Those trains were retired in 2000 and were the last trains to use conductors (referred to as guards). I got to ride them for only three stops. Better than nothing.
I remember one train with a 1938 stock livery, to celebrate the 100th
anniversary of the Northern line. I wish they keep some of the cars
somewhere. Or at least make them the next generation of Isle of Wight trains!
They do. 1938 tube stock is alive and (reasonably) well on the Isle of Wight, which is about two hours from Waterloo Station (take the train to Portsmouth, take the ferry, and a unit will be waiting at Ryde). Catch them before they close the line down.
>>>>Catch them before they close the line down.
Why would they close the line down? Is the service seasonal?
The isle of Wight is a wonderful place, but not as popular a holiday destination as it used to be, and these days people prefer to drive to their holidays. There is only a polulation of 100,000 on the island, and the three main towns that the line serves are about 10,000 people each (Ryde, Sandown, Shanklin). There are no obvious successors to the 1938 stock, and press reports suggest that the line is the most highly subsidised per passenger in the country (which I cannot believe). Operationally, a half-witted cost cutting scheme has left the line with a 20-40 service frequency, connecting with a 30 minute ferry service.
Other suggestions have included trams and a quided busway, but as the island has a surprisingly good and busy (albeit very expensive) bus service, death by gradually falling to pieces is also a possible option.
In the meantime, Portsmouth-Gosport has just had a new light rail scheme authorised, which includes a tunnel sunk under the harbour, which will make quite a contrast.
> 1938 tube stock is alive and (reasonably) well on the Isle of Wight
I am aware of that. I was thinking about the one train of 1959 stock
painted with 1938 stock livery.
Are they going to close the line? I didn't know that.
I rode the 1938 stock almost everyday on the Bakerloo and the
Northern back in 78. I hated them back then, and miss them so much now.
Sorry, misread your post. No chance of 1959 stock making an appearance on the island. Thanks to posts by other people, I now know why 1983 stock has not been purchased. Some 1972 stock has been scrapped, but no noises about going to the island. 1967 stock can't go there, which just leaves 1973 stock, whenever it gets replaced.
> Some 1972 stock has been scrapped
Ouch, MkI or MkII?
MkI used to be on the Northern, and MkII(red doors) mostly on the
Bakerloo around 1978. Later, MkII were on the Jubilee while 1938
were gathered on the Bakerloo.
BTW, I had some friends from Paris in town (NYC) last week,
and was told how antiquated the NY system looked,
even though their system is older.
Aaaah, Do something MTA!
The Mark 2 stock is alive and well on the Bakerloo Line including around 4 trains converted from Mark 1 stock.
All the Mark 1 stock is stored with some cars being scrapped, to note however are:
car 3530 to the Museum
unit 3215 to the Bakerloo as a shunting unit at London Road Depot
cars 3515 4528 4515 3528 being converted to a rail grinding train, car 4515 away being fitted with equipment at an outside contractor.
One unit was/is also stored on the closed Aldwych Branch for use as a training train by the Emergency Response Unit (ERU) and the London Fire Brigade.
Regards Rob:^)
Thanks for that. Surprised that 1972 stock is going to the LT museum. Shouldn't they be waiting for 1967 stock, which was the more significant design.
Travelled on the Victoria Line for the first time in ages the other day. Hard to believe that they are way past their 30th Birthday. Also, had forgotten how comfortable the seats were compared with awful seats on more recent trains (especially Central Line). Shame about the ride though.
The last time I rode on the Victoria line was in 93 or 92.
It was during peak hours and the trains were really crowded.
Some of the trains had grafitti on them, too.
The first time I rode on that line, the line was shiny and new.
UK still used the old currency system and I had tickets
showing prices like /6, 2/- on them. I probably still have those
tickets somewhere, back at my parents house.
The TA started modernizing the system in the 70's. Fortunately, those modernizations are coming down. The original IRT and BMT stations are truly artistic; I'd rather see the original art than a modern blue-and-white coverup job.
And let's not forget that the subway runs all night, unlike nearly every other subway system, so the TA doesn't have free reign for a few hours each day.
38 Stock spent its final years, when it was re-introduced in the mid 80s, in original its livery of dark red, gold lettering, cream window pillars and grey roofs.
Inside they had bright green paint (called Cerulean Blue by the Management!)and colourful red/green uphostery.
The roof at the front was rounded with a chevron ventilator in the middle.
It is too good a stock to waste and can still be seen languishing at various locations.
All subsequent Stock since the war is aluminum and ran for most of its life unpainted.
1959 stock was generally unpainted until its end, and was differnet from 38 in that the roof wasn't rounded had side ventilators and the inside was boring grey!
Did the second batch of '1983' stock address any of these problems?
I only drove on the Jubilee for few months in the early 80s - thank God! Swapped for H&C and the strange and baffling "C" Stock - but at least it had a beautiful Westinghouse that made up for everything else!
So, has anybody noticed what I was getting at? If you put "sadly missed" in the same sentence as "1983 stock", with the last two numbers, the 8 and the 3, transposed the result is "sadly missed 1938 stock"... This is the point I was driving at here: the 1938 stock is very sadly missed, and the 1983 stock isn't (as far as I know) because it was rubbish - total rubbish. I don't know if the legend about how the Batch I trains were originally accidentally built too large for tube tunnel clearances is true, but it wouldn't surprise me. On that note, can anybody say for sure whether or not that is true?
-Robert King
yeah i got the 38 - 83 reference - the 38 was a masterpiece, just watch your head on the retarder housing!!
conventional wisdom on the first batch of 83s was that the car bodies flexed too much and fouled the gauge, so they put in floor to roof grab poles to stabilise them!
Last time I was at Uxbridge some 83 stock was parked there, looking a bit sad though. I thought I saw a unit at Northfields.
Simon
Swindon UK
sadly no longer with us applies to the majority of the first batch.
Batch 1, 3601-3630
Batch 2, 3631-3663
Many cars have been stored at various locations,the'plan' is to increase the number of trains on the Piccadilly Line by running 1983 stock or to lenghten Picc trains by adding a 1983 stock trailer or driving cars in the centre as non-driving cabs.
When we look back over time the scrapping of these cars I'm sure will be seen as a big mistake especially with the current demand for 'Tube' services in London and the push for more Trains Per Hour which is on many lines at the maximum the signalling sysytem can cope with.
Regards Rob:^)
I just got back from London last night. I already knew what the "open" buttons were for, but like you, I never had to use them. On the Docklands light rail, however, I had to push them for the doors to open. That was the only time I had the use them.
I will post more about my trip later tonight when I have more time. The UndergrounD is friggin' awesome as hell!!!
The date(s) have been firmed up as Tuesday July 10th with a rain date of Thursday July 12th.
Here is the route plan:
I'll be leaving from Main Street on the Flushing line (#7) at 4 PM. So any who want to join me on a
Red Bird ride please be, either on the East end of the platform (with in fare control), or near the new
booth on the East end. I'll talk you thru some of the sights along the way.
Next I'll arrive at Times Square about 4:45, where I'll take the 8th Avenue Express, A, to Jay Street
Brooklyn. I probally won't be waiting for any particular type of train. There I'll be doing a light supper
at Burger King which is one block down a cross street from Jay.
6 PM our trip starts in earnest at Jay Street. I plan to catch the first R-38, i.e. Railfan Window equiped
train after 6. We'll make one stop at Rockaway Blvd. to see where A splits off to Leffert's Blvd, and
view the old LIRR ROW (some in disuse, some in use by TA). Hopefully the next R-38 won't make
us wait too long. Back on our way we'll cross Jamaica Bay and head for Far Rockaway.
Now it's time for LI Bus N33 to take us accross the inlet and down Park Street in Long Beach. We'll
see the area change form cramped summer cottages to fine homes to shops and fine resturants. Our
destination is the LIRR Long Beach station. Here it's either a short walk to the beach or a ride on the
City of Long Beach bus. There's a place right on the Boardwalk to wet your whistle or get a Ice
Cream ... they serve food, but I need to determine when the kitchen closes.
We'll need to walk back because the bus makes a big loop before it heads back to the LIRR station.
Here we have two choices:
- LI Bus N15 will connect with N4 at Merrick Road in Rockville Centre. This will bring you back to
Jamaica ... I'll be taking this route, as it drops me off two blocks from home.
- LIRR, for about $4 you'll get a lovely ride to Jamaica where you can catch the LIRR to Atlantic
Avenue, or Penn Station. The E, J & Z are also available there.
It's going to be one of the best ways I know of to enjoy a subway/bus ride & a warm summer night.
Join us by yourself or with a date, it will be fun. I already have a "core" group signed up, so the trip
will be on the dates above unless both are rained out, but I would love to have more of my Sub/Bus
Talk friends join us.
Thurston Clark - Tour Coordinator
Both the Surface Transportation Board and the Federal Railway Administration have OK'ed Amtrak's request to travel at 79mph on the new track that will support Boston (North Station) to Portland, Maine service. Read the full story from the Destination:Freedom newsletter (3rd story down).
Good news.
The GRS wants Amtrak to test the 79mph before they start. The only problem is how are they going to test that speed as the GRS feels it is dangerous for a train to do. As part of the compromise Amtrak is going to have some sort of track car thing w/ testing equipment run at 79.
Actually the "track car thing w/ test equipment" will run at a very slow speed. That was last week's beef from GRS. It seems they wanted extra compensation for "slowing down the line." Kind of ironic when you realize the speeding up of the line was a result of this project!
I went to Maryland on a vacation after Graduation last tuesday the 26th of june. Anyways, I went to Maryland for a Church trip. Anyways all I really saw was the New Carrolton station, Camden yards, and Marylands MTA buses. Their Busses look like our Orions and Their Trains look good too! Also Amtrak has Color Position lights down there. Not to mention I saw a SEPTA train for the first time. It looked like a Subway and it had Subway style signals.
but I came into New York Over the Verrazano Bridge and saw Stillwell Avenue station and CI yards. I saw a R32 N and said I AM HOME!!!!!
The MBTA has updated its Silver Line Web site. For now, it's BRT ("bus rapid transit," a potential oximoron), but potentially upgradable to light rail in the (far) future. It's more likely we'll see a full 2nd Avenue subway in NYC first :-(
I don't know what MBTA is using for their Silver LIne web site, but it crashed IE for me three times in a row. I could open it with Netscape, however.
-- Ed Sachs
when is it goning to open?
Read the Web site! It's gonna be a looooong time before it's done (if ever...)
Before or after the big dig is completed?
Some parts of the Silver Line would be done by Spring 2002. The rest would be done by 2010 b/c the Tunnel is going to take a LONG TIME!!
Some of it will be done in 2003 it will be fully done in 2010.
when is it goning to open? went there last week to North station ,you know just to see the progress, it looks like their just about finished with every thing. THE BIG DIG on the ohter hand still looks like one big hole in the ground, but the new bridge is one beauitful sight,for sure. ill be taking another trip there soon enough,just for a look see.
The North Station complex is YEARS from completion. They haven't even started digging under North Station for the Green Line relocation. The only part about done (due to open this month) is the entrance to the north end of the Orange Line station.
"The North Station complex is YEARS from completion. They haven't even started digging under North Station for the Green Line relocation."
I think the tunnel under north station was built as part of the fleet center, the par t that needs to get done is under the old Boston garden. I think the superstation itself is almost complete and will not open for a few years.
Just the shell of the station is completed under the Fleet Center/North Station. You are correct about needing to tunnel under the old Boston Garden. In addition, the tunnels and ramps leading out of the new station to meet up with the elevated bridge over the Charles River needs to be constructed. Here's the MBTA Web site information. [Note that the opening of the north end of the Orange Line station at North Station has been delayed from May... until June... now into July. When I went by this morning, it looked like it's near completion. Even the escalators were running!]
Well, at least it's being built. There's always potential for future improvement.
One thing which a busway is vulnerable to, though - drivers who press politicians for access to it. If cars are allowed in there, you can basically trash the whole project.
"If cars are allowed in there, you can basically trash the whole project."
Not likely...... the busway starts in Southie and ends in a loop at South Station, below ground and above the Red Line. No egress there. Besides, a new traffic tunnel will run from that same area (Teddy Tunnel) and connect with the new "Dig" and the Mass Pike.
I wonder what the buses will look like?
"but potentially upgradable to light rail in the (far) future."
It may happen sooner than we think that the new Red Sox ballpark is built on fan pier. The state has approved $100 million dollars for the project but it can only be used on public improvements such as roads and transit.
"but potentially upgradable to light rail in the (far) future."
It may happen sooner than we think that the new Red Sox ballpark is built on fan pier. The state has approved $100 million dollars for the project but it can only be used on public improvements such as roads and transit.
The Website says that the W is supposed to stop at 49th street. Then 42nd and 34. skip 28, 23rd, stopping at 14th. Skipping Prince and Canal, stopping at Bridge line Canal street, heading over the bridge, takes B indication assuming it will go Exp on 4th av. Here is a question. I thought the W was going to be going on the Middle track all the way down Bway!
How will this work?
I think it will switch between local and express between 42nd and 34th.
This is necessary since the Q will be terminating at 57th Street/7th Ave while the W will be continuing to Queens.
:-) Andrew
The W goes to the local track north of 42nd Street. I can not use the express tracks at 57th St because Q trains will be relaying there (changing directions) and it would cause a delay in service.
It crosses between 34th and 42nd in both directions. No express-local xover between 42 and 49th.
Why can't the northbound Q discharge its passengers at 57th St, continue north, reverse direction, and then re-enter 57th on the southbound side? Then there might not be a delay in W service?
Having Queens-bound Broadway expresses stop at 49th is an ancient BMT tradition, dating back at least to the 1950s when the Brighton Express ran to Astoria. We wouldn't want to muck with tradition, would we?
-- Ed Sachs
It also carried to recent tradition, the Southern B in the 80s flip stopped at 49th, and during that brief time in 1990 the N Broadway Express stopped at 49th as well.
I had the old DOS Bahn on my computer but downloaded the new Bahn 3.70 for Windows a few months ago. Now I'm getting a message that the "trial" period of 62 days is over soon and that I have to register or some functions may be locked. What functions are affected? Is it possible someone could someone email the registration key over to me.
It's in Germany and I sure don't feel like sending any $$ there, even if I had the dough (the prog does not list US dollar amount). There's usually a way of "beating" the registation system so if anyone could help me I'd appreciate it.
Do you like the program? Do you think it's worth any money at all?
What about getting a "friend" with a different log-on to register to use it.
Not to be a total prude, but there's nothing wrong or even unreasonable with what the company is doing. If you want to use a program someone else worked really hard on, why not pay for it? You'll get tech. support that way.
I assume you're afraid your check will be cashed and no registration sent to you, and there's no US affiliate to send the money to...
Exactly. They don't even have dollar amounts. Bahn 3.70 is an excellent program probably worth $20, but I'd rather spend less for it.
If it was in the U.S. I wouldn't hesitate as much, but since the author is far away I am hesitant about it.
Not paying for the registration is akin to jumping the turnstiles ya know ... "theft of service" it's called. Simple solution if you don't wanna pay for it, don't use it. Sorry for chiding in, but I take a lot of guff for not putting out "demo versions" of the software we sell. You just answered the question ... It's like showing up for work every day and your employer decides not to pay you. I'm sure it would get you a bit peeved, same for the poor schlumps that write software. The reason for the timeout is the guy who wrote Bahn got tired of not getting paid, so he put a cop by the turnstiles in the form of deactivation.
Well it seems the DOS version was freeware. Never had to pay for it. I wonder why this was changed with the newer version.
It was shareware. You had to pay. But now they have things in the program making sure of it. Go to your e-mail Inbox and read my message. ---You're welcome.
Howdy and please don't be offended by what I said ... when you write code for Windows, it gets very expensive. To do it properly as just one example, you have to pay $500.00 a year to Microsoft for a MINIMUM "MSDN subscription" just to keep up with all the changes. With over 35 different "versions" of Windows (the 8 major versions and then toss in IE service packs, windows service packs and other hijinx) you end up having to jump through hoops to make something reliably work with all of them. Then there's the "support issues" of "it doesn't work."
All of that adds up to torture and expense for folks who write code for Windows and they end up having to charge something for it or the software goes the way of "Mechanik" ... too expensive to maintain for free and thus it dies. It's one reality for someone who is a student or has "other funding" for the development. Don't mind me though, I make my own living on Billyware and I understand what it's like. A lot of software creators put their work out there expecting to see some money roll in, it never does and they get frustrated. Some put lockouts in in order to get paid, others give up entirely and a small number turn to writing viruses to "get even" with their users. NASDAQ made the "software biz" look like an easy gold mine. Then there's those of us who have been at it for decades and know better. :)
I have bahn 3.70 Beta, and it has no such blocking force. It does keep an internal count of how long you've been using it, though. It also says "this program run [however long you used it] without a General Protection Fault!" If you run it for longer than 20 minutes. I could send it to you if you want...
Well I'm gonna wait and see what happens. The functions that are blocked I may not even use!
The function is the ability to have the layout in motion. After 62 days, everything is still.
Oh well then that serves no purpose having it still. Well when I get around to it (in the future when I've got the dough) I'll register it.
The reason the DOS version was not time sensitive is that the author had a little more faith in fellow human beings than he really should have. BAHN started out as a "labor of love" for Jan Bochmann, the author. A LOT of time and effort have gone into the program.
He got a total of 14 (fourteen!!) shareware payments for version 3.59.
Hell, there's more than ten times that many peoples' names on layouts produced with Bahn 3.59 at various sites around the world.
I don't blame Herr Bochmann for putting a trial period expiration into the program. (And guess what, I paid for it, and I DO have the codes to get rid of the expiry notice permanently. NOBODY will get them from me. Don't ask.)
It is not that hard to pay for the program...especially if you live in NYC. Go to any bank that will exchange US$ into DM (Deutschmarks). Give them $20.00 worth of US currency, plus whatever the exchange fee is, and send whatever amount of DM you get. It will cost maybe a whole buck to mail it to Herr Bochmann.
Perhaps if more people pay for the program, some more developments/upgrades can be made....and your consciene (if you have one) will be clear.
First I'm gonna wait and see what options are frozen after registration period ends. If I need them then I'll send the fee. But isn't it easier to wire the money to the author? The numbers are given on the Bahn web site and in the program itself.
There is a way around this, that I may do for awhile but eventually when I have the $$ I'm gonna pay.
I have had shareware progs in the past and paid for them, but the only reason I get a funny feeling is sending money abroad. It's a shame such great programs like BAHN aren't written by anyone in the US (same goes for Mechanik and that Japanese program). The best we get in the U.S. is MSTrainsim, and that is less reliable than a LI Bus.
Trainsim is plenty reliable, just because SelkirkTMO had a bad batch of disks dont mean nothin, I know 4 people besides myself who purchased the program here in NYC with nonoooooooooooo problems, and we are enjoying it quite nicely, BTW just downloaded a great SW900, what fun.
Yo yo yo! Actually got a set of disks that worked ... got it all installed and it STILL bombed ... as it turns out, it's MIGHTY fussy about the video card too. My old Matrox Millenium II apparently wasn't supported after all the struggles ... 500 miles on the odometer and no "only supports these ten cards" on the package ... I don't care if Microsoft has a REAL train in the box anymore. :)
But glad to hear SOMEONE got the pig working. But I did manage to get a little throttle time in last week from a buddy of mine so I'm feeling a BIT better. Heh.
Trainsim is plenty reliable, just because SelkirkTMO had a bad batch of disks dont mean nothin, I know 4 people besides myself who purchased the program here in NYC with nonoooooooooooo problems, and we are enjoying it quite nicely, BTW just downloaded a great SW900, what fun. also the Japanese program is called BVE Boso View Express
This looks great for people who want to try Acela. Railfans can split the cost of a tix on the weekend to get their first ACELA Experience.
Fare Details
This offer is available for sale 6/20 - 9/20/2001, and is only valid on Acela Express weekend services (Saturdays & Sundays) from 6/23 - 9/23/01. Blackout dates are 8/31 - 9/2/01. No refund is available for the regular-fare ticket, without the surrender of the free companion ticket. This offer is subject to change fees if applicable. Reservations must be made and tickets purchased at least three (3) days prior to travel. Tickets must be purchased within three days of reservation. Full-fare passenger and companion must travel together on the same itinerary and are subject to the same restrictions, blackouts and exchange fees. Offer cannot be combined with any other promotion, offers, or standard Amtrak discount. There is an additional charge for First Class accommodations. Fares are based on availability and are subject to change without notice. When calling for information or reservations, refer to fare code H155. Amtrak Guest Rewards double point offer is only valid for the full fare paying passenger and does not apply to the companion travel. Amtrak Guest Reward offer is restricted to specific cities within the Northeast and is only valid for travel during 6/23 - 9/23/01. Other restrictions may apply and are subject to change without notice.
Mrs. Keystone Pete and I are vacationing in Boston and Maine at the end of the month, and this email hit my inbox right as I was booking the travel! Turns out, compared to a direct shuttle flight at the desired times, the Acela offer, with what amounts to a 25% discount (no promo on the NYP-BOS leg, free companion fare on the return) saves us $35! We're renting a car @ Logan, so I hope the blue line is running. I can't wait to go 150mph! I plan some railfanning on the T and another visit to STM. :O)
Well come on up Pete! It will be good to see you again. The Blue Line should be running, but it's still skipping Aquarium Station due to Big Dig work. Make sure you ride the newly refurbished PCCs on the Mattapan-Ashmont line.
...As long as the Airport Station and shuttle-bus is still operating. It'll be a Thursday. I decided the airport car-rental location, as opposed to downtown, would be best, since I'm heading north, and I know the route (more roundabouts than New Jersey!). The Ashmont PCC is first on my list for T-fanning. You know me & trolleys. I'll email u later when itinerary is finalized (subject to spousal approval!), and hope to see u again @ STM. I only wish I had qualified this year at Rockhill. Someday, I'd like a crack @ the City of Manchester, since Dad operated it long ago...
If you're a single rider sans companion...
could this offer buy you a Northbound ticket
at regular price and a Southbound ticket
for FREE??
No, it doesn't work that way... wish it did! I'd visit my daughter a couple of more times this summer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
he's back ... after a long absence, heypaul that is ... and using caps? or was that a mistake ?
welcome back !
Mr t__:^)
Wonder of wonders!!! I checked the MTA website this afternoon and they have 3 pages on the upcoming MB changes.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/subway/mn_bridge.htm
It was not there this morning so they must have done updating after lunch.
And I guessed August 10th in an earlier thread. I am humbled in their presence (well , for a few seconds anyway).
It appears that they are still working on the web page because the borough links on the upper left are still "dead." Now when will they update the full map?
Jose
The problem has been fixed.
Chaohwa
Only from the map -- not from the highlights page.
Some of the pages claim the service change began yesterday, as originally planned.
The highlights page also claims that the new routes are explained at the right -- but nothing's on the right.
Worst of all, the only link is a small image on the NYCT front page (that appears to have replaced the DETOUR link that should still be available). Even on the service advisories page, nothing is posted.
I was on a Q Train this morning crossing the bridge. We were running slow because of some workers on the tracks. The train eventually stopped. I spotted 2882 and friends at DeKalb on the bypass tracks. When my train passed, the bridge under was shaking, then another train passed next to us. And the train left but it kept shaking. Then I saw the 4 car set cross on the other side and we started moving again. At the mid-end of the bridge, another set from Canal Street came up and went across but the one from Brooklyn blocked my vision of the other's number plates. But the bridge actually had an up and down motion. This is called fixed?
It's a suspension bridge. Suspension bridges are supposed to wobble a bit.
Actually, the bridge is trying to tell everyone that it misses itss friend, the Sea Beach, and is bummed out about it.
The bridge is actually saying, "Oh, my aching deck!".
Wow, then how is the metal able to not crack from so much wobbling? Wait, isn't that the problem.
Flexible joints.
If it is not able to wobble a little then it would *have* to crack.
Elias
Now we have a bridge with both.
Suspension bridges are supposed to wobble a bit.
That wobble is about 12 feet.
Hey, that's nothing compared to designer Robert Moisseiff's later masterpiece, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
The Manhattan Bridge has a wider deck, and does not use plate girders as a stiffening truss. Plus it doesn't roll and undulate the way ol' Galloping Gertie did when the winds blow.
Again, remember that this 1909 bridge should have had the tracks on the inside....I believe tension would have been greatly reduced if that were the case, as is the case with the Williamsburg, which has MUCH less vibration than the M B.
believe it or not, the Willy Bis actually 3 bridges in one.
Bridges can wobble. And they will. They just can't fall down.
Hmmm they can't? Look back to Tacoma Narrows in 1940. That one bit the dust fast!
Spotted ex LIRR Geeps 261 & 271 on a siding in Riverhead. 271 still has the original livery while 261 has the NY&A livery. It was kinda faded, but it still looked nice. I think the crew was on lunch.
What ever happened to the 1964 World's fair Monorail? Is the structure still up, is it still running, what have they done with it?
The monorail is long gone. For a brief history of it, click here. There's a picture of one surviving car on page 5.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the fascinating pictures and info! I visited the Fair 17 times, but never rode the monorail! It think that was because it cost extra. Also, it just ran around the amusement area instead of going to the main Fair area to the north.
it is LONG GONE.
remember I was YELLING to you about how they took it down after the fair? You remember not , my canadian moose friend.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
HEY???????
Parts of the 1964 Monorail were used in the construction of the ill-fated Springfield Monorail.
dho!
MONO THING A MA JIG
Answers for Exam 0536 taken on May 19, 2001. Other tests for Sabbath Observance, etc. will have different answers.
1B
2A
3A
4C
5B
6C
7A
8B
9D
10D
11A
12D
13B
14B
15D
16A
17D
18C
19A
20B
21A
22C
23B
24B
25B
26D
27C
28A
29D
30B
31D
32A
33D
34B
35B
36D
37A
38D
39A
40D
41A
42B
43B
44C
45B
46B
47D
48B
49B
50B
51B
52A
53A
54B
55D
56B
57C
58C
59B
60B
61D
62C
63A
64D
65A
66C
67B
68B
69D
70B
71A
72C
73B
74D
75C
76B
77C
78C
79D
80D
Hope you did well.
Great; what were the questions?
Dan
There was a rumor that only 55 people passed and 15 of them were disqualified.
I am a "close Personal Freind" with one who has passed.. we are haviving a BIG party tonight...
Peace,
ANDEE
As of now, it appears that I have passed. Barely. If the posted answers are correct, then I roughly got a final score of 76 or 77.
Not bad for 15 minutes worth of studying, eh?
Congrats to you both. Must of been one of those wonderful TA rumors.
My favorite was that the off-the street guys got paid a dollar more than the promotionals.
I've heard a rumor that less than 100 people passed the test. Has anyone else heard about it?
I'm guessing that this rumor is just that, a rumor and nothing else.
I was hearing the same thing over here on the A Div. I hear a lot of people failed that test.
I've been hearing somewhere between 40 and 50 people passed. I've also heard that some of the listed answers are wrong.
Two observations that I noticed on my weekend jaunt to the Big Apple that maybe someone could comment on. First stoped by the Visitors center on Seventh Ave for some info. While there picked up official guide book. The TA has a four page pamphlet about the Manhattan Bridge service changes. The map they have shows the F using the 53rd st tunnel I thought the F was to use the 63rd tunnels? Funny thing in the official guide book they show the July subway map with all the new routes yet when I asked for one at the 50th & Broadway station they gave me a map from March. Go figure.
The 63rd St Tunnel changes become effective in November. The map is correct for the July 22nd changes.
As for the map, we’re all waiting for the new one…
Now Car 7381-7390 and 7411-7420 are running in service as of the PM Rush Hour on 7/2/01.
I had the 7381-7390 series on the last trip we had no problems. A rail buff was asking me how many R142's were in service. I wonder if that may have been anyone from this board.
I thought so, I rode on 7381 (the 1536 out of 77th street) smelt brand new, didn't have a chance to get the barcode off. I do have 7360's barcode though.
Barcode, eh?
Yep, straight from Toys R Us!!! ;-)
You took the barcode?? I know where they are placed.
Why are you vandalizing the trains?? Minor I admit but vandalism nevertheless.
What is the function of this barcode?
Peace,
ANDEE
Path trains have barcodes next to the doors, that indicate the car number and door panel number. I assume that whenever maintenance is performed they zap the bar code to keep track in a database. If you're removing the bar codes it's only going to piss someone off who is expecting to be able to scan it some time...
I had the impression from posts here that the bar codes were something important only at the factory.
Thanks for posting that, Dave. OK you guys, knock it off. Leave the train equipment alone...
I'm sure the barcodes are used only at checkout time once the trains actually work, they'll ring 'em up at the cashier's counter. Wonder what would happen if a barcode from a whole beef ham was substituted. :)
ROTFLMAO
You'll get a coupon good for $1.00 off your next purchase of a subway car.
Only if you have a Bombasaki debit card. :)
ONLY $1.00? Fuggeddabboudddittt!
--Mark
He's taking them for what purpose? He has no right to do that.
-Stef
You know I was the C/R on that train it was the 3PM Pelham
You gonna try for the mail-in rebate?
I wonder where 7391-7400, and 7401-7410 are. Probably still at Unionport.
If you're wondering where R142As 7391 - 7400 are, they are in service as of this morning. Saw them at 3 Av - 138th St. while riding on #7246 on the 6 express this morning; they were going northbound to Parkchester.
I saw them on the way home tonight.
I counted of 16 Sets on the (6) Line and 5 Sets on the (2) Line
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
R-142s in Service
6301-10
6311-20
6321-25 and 6346-50
6326-35
Coming Soon 6336-45
6411-20
6421-30
6576-85
6586-90 and 6596-6600
6591-95 and 6601-05
Coming Soon 6501-05 and 6606-10
9 R-142 Train Sets working, 2 more on the way in
-Stef
on your coming soon list that you posted, all except 6606-10 is in service right now. 6411-20 is in service since monday 7/2/01 some are in the yards and would be selected for service later. coming soon from 207 6351-6410 coming in gradually after being fixed.
6356-60 is at Unionport right now. Signed up as:
5: To Bowling Green.
Via Lexington Ave Express
Bronx Express
That's exactly what I said: 6501-05 and 6606-10 are in test simulation mode.
6411-20 have been on the road for a quite a while.
Hopefully 6351-6410 will be ready to go shortly.
-Stef
I know you where on my train Monday on my second trip up. I seen you at Zerega Ave. I was on the R62 Northbound and sounded the horn.
OH CRAP, AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!
I thought someone blowing the horn at me was wierd! I was like do I know that person?!?!?!??!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Well I hope you enjoyed the ride. I don't think the PA was working that good beacuse I couldn't hear myself make Announcments exept for the off side.
By the way the R142A behind that 7381-90 was mind to take down for the last one.
I got on that set, I detrained at the next stop and caught that one, I was doing a photo session on the entire bronx section of the (6) line, so I was hopping on and off the trains for about 3 hours!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Was this on Mon or Tues? If it was Monday, we must have just missed each other ... I was on the 2/5 and 6 lines all day (11am - 10pm).
--Mark
Hmmmm, 16 trains of R142As on the 6 line now? I guess it's time for the Pelham R62A to leave for their new home in Queens.
Not only that but expect salaam and John to lead a candle-light vigil and unity march for the redbirds. The march (scheduled for Labor Day) will begin at Willets Pt. Blvd and Roosevelt Ave. and end at the 38th St yard.
Well, we did a little R142 hunting yesterday and saw *11* trains in the yard. There were plenty of Redbirds and R62's on the 6 yesterday (Wednesday July 4). Apparently one of the problems is that not all the conductors and motormen are qualified to operate the R142's yet, or so I overheard.
The ones we saw on the road were:
7281-7290
7321-7330
7341-7350
7361-7370
7371-7380
7391-7400
7401-7410
That's 7 trains, plus the 11 in Westchester Yard makes 18, and I'm not positive we spotted all the ones in service. One of the trains we saw in the yard was 7381-7390 which has been reported here in the past week as "on the road". I guess it had yesterday off.
excuse me, but if you are whoi though you were, yesterday 7/4/01 i saw a heavy set man with two other men taking pics at Elder Av. on the north bound front end of the platform. i was on the manhattan bound R-142A from a return visit of my god sister. i was riding 7371-7380 when i saw the rail click. was that you mister Pirmann?
Yup, 2 big guys and a thin young guy. I was the one in the orange shirt.
ah! i was right! booya!
Actually the Pelham R62A's are making their way to ENY, Bklyn.(Livonia Yard) and 240th Yard. There are 30 cars on the the 3 already and about 20 cars on the 1.
Why do they need to transfer Pelham cars to 1?
Arti
I have several sources from the MTA telling that there will be a Conductor test soon. I graduated High skool last tuesday and if A test comes out, it would allow me to be a Conductor which is not far from my Ultimate Career goal as a Motorman. I will also attempt to apply for LIRR MNRR and PATH
Well the last test was in June of 1998.
I can also tell you that my friend scored a 900 on that test, and only got called a month ago for a urine test, and was told the ol' "you'll hear from us in 30-90 days".
It was not June of 1998, the conductor test was in July, 1999 & I took that test. They did start calling people last november, 2000 & i think the number is 700 or 800 now im not sure about that number.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
No, it was June of 1999.
You right vernon, future t/o it was in june 26, 1999 not july & i took another nyc transit test in july, 1999 that was NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Test.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
Yeah, that was the one that i had missed by 3 days. The test was on the day after i graduated high school. Boy was i pissed. Then i took the T/O test in Jan. 2000, haven't been called up yet.
I took the June 1999 Exam and I was only in Grade 11. By the time they called me I had 5 Mouths out of High School and I was in the First O/C Conductor class in Nov. I was hired at 18 Years old.
Only 37 years till retirement for ya. And I thought that I had a long time to go with 8 in and 25 to go.
It was absolutely, positively JUNE 1998.
Someone help me here.
The conductors test that I registered for was in June 1998, not 1999. I know this for a fact, for several reasons.
I remember I was living in Astoria at the time, and for whatever reason, I was assigned to take the test at a HS on 18th Street in Manhattan. It was a Saturday, and the day was very hot. I also remember being assigned to the PM session which lead to me not taking the test. Why? Because two hours after the listed start time, we were all standing on the street, still waiting to get in to take the tes. I was so disgusted that I just left, called my girlfriend, and said, "$^#( this stupid job let's meet at Pizza Uno on 86th in Manhattan". We dated in the summer of 1998.
I also remember taking the Port Authority Police Exam in April 1998, and being accepted for that job in July 1999, but I turned it down.
There is just no way the conductors test was given in 1999.
I still have my Conductor Exam notice and the exam date was June 26, 1999. I did hear some people say there was also an Exam in 1998 which I didn't know about.
There was no Conductor test back in june, 1998 & the last Conductor test was taking in early 1994. Here click this link that have a date of the tests past 4 years.
Peace
David Justiniano
The first day I went to 1250 Bway they did that samething but got called 3 days after so I had to rush on the paperwork.
I am currently in the Assistant Conductor's training class (non-compensated), it is a demanding training program.
If you want to apply for the LIRR your need to have some sort of customer service experience (ie: bank teller, sales etc)on your resume and some college. They are hiring for the A/C position, they anticipate a few more classes in the next few years because of retirements. Not to discourage you, but it takes awhile to get called. LIRR gets 20,000 resumes a year for this position and they only select around 1,500 and then through the process get the candidates for the program. In my class there are 29 A/C trainees, so do the numbers. I was sending my resume for about 4 years before finally getting called. Go for it, my advice send a resume every day to the LIRR you never know.
Good Luck
If any new tests are scheduled, you'll read about it right here on SubTalk.
My advice to you, apply for everything and take the first thing that comes your way.
They are calling up Conductor fast from the current list. I seen a bunch of C/R's posing this week.
As reported here, the old facdae with the BMT Lines insigias is indeed gone. All that remains is the badly rusted I beam that held it up.
On the Stillwell Ave side, the stores that held the car service, pizza shop and corner convience store is all gone too. The corner convience store had that faded Coppertone Tan sign on it for many years.
On the left hand arcade, the long vacant bar is gone too, but Philips candy shop and stores on the right hand arcade still stand, but for how long?
On the first Stillwell update I posted a month or so ago, I stated that an old building next to Nathans was torn down. Now I know why. The land was blacktopped and there are numerous prefab concrete picnic tables and concrete stools still in their crates. I guess some more seating for Nathans patrons who would some hot dogs and fries before or after the Brooklyn Cyclones game. I stopped off at the Cyclones gift shop and bought a Cyclones white tee shirt with logo for $16.00, no sales tax was charged.
Bill "Newkirk"
there is no sales tax on clothing in NYC, for purchases under just a bit over $100
$110.
That's per item, IINM. I wonder if any shoe stores have started selling left shoes and right shoes separately.
Spotted today at 34th St/Penn Sta. on the 7th Ave Line heading south.
Consist of Redbirds all with lights off, all signs said the norm such as:
E.241st/White Plains Rd.
2 7th Ave. Exp.
But all southern destination signs were set at New Lots Ave, Brooklyn. Can anyone explain this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Some southbound #2 and #5 trains on the AM rush operate to New Lots Avenue, and from New Lots on the PM rush. Not sure of the numbers, but there aren't many.
There are three #2 trains that operate from to/from Zoo Lots. There are six #5 trains that operate to/from there as well. I worked on most of these jobs. In fact I got one tomorrow.....
Car #9321 is sitting in CIY comply striped of every thing. It is sitting right behind the Fire School building. It can't be seen from "F" line. I saw it after I did A lay up. So I guess that this is a good time to get rid if the Singles since they don't use them in the summer anyway.
Robert
If they don't use the singles during summer, how do they manage to get 11 car consists on the 7 line? The R-33 Singles are the only revenue singles in the fleet.
Dan
They don't run 11 cars over the summer. Since they don't have A/C and no one would ride them anyway.
Robert
Sometimes they're nice when you have the strom doors open along with all the windows.
YES!!!
Thank you. I'll admit, in the 95 degrees and high humidity this past Saturday, those cars were hot as a bitch, but with all the openness and the fans, it was pretty neat. And with most people passing them over in favor of the AC cars (whimps!), there was more room to stretch out. It was funny, seeing ten cars packed with people standing, and the one car with a handful of people!
Also considering the singles are the very last of their kind (unairconditioned cars with fans).
I can just imagine, that not too long ago, most of the trains were like that! And not just one car per train, but entire trains of non-AC cars!
I guess I've been spoiled! It was kinda nice, though, I'm forced to admit, transferring to an (air conditioned) R-142(A???) #2 train after the #7 trip.
just wait until the r-142s ac BREAKS DOWN ! & then i bet not one subtalker here will be man enough to admit it when it does
happen as it will sooner than later ...!! LOL !!! .......
You still talking about that sir? Don't you want to shoot videos out of the RAILFAN WINDOW?
Well sir, only time will tell as to whether or not the 142s will live up to standards, but even you have to admit that subway cars get old.
-Stef
sir , you know the r-142s are full width transverse cabs & no railfan window ( small caps here ) lol !! as for getting old the r-142s
will age very fast !!! lol !!!
How are they different from all of the other cars they run in the summer w/o A/C?
None of the other cars are non-AC, except for a couple R-32's (which were supposed to have been AC equipped, but for some reason they're not, I'm not sure why).
There are cars with AC that doesn't work, but they get fixed when they're gotten around to.
"None of the other cars are non-AC, except for a couple R-32's (which were supposed to have been AC equipped, but for some reason they're not, I'm not sure why)."
These are the 10 R-32s that were GOH'd at General Electric. The ACs no longer work and parts are unavailable. The ACs on the M&K GOHd R-32s are not compatible.
To replace 20 ACs in the 10 R-32s doesn't seem cost effective to the TA, that's why they are on the future scrap list along with the R-38,40,421s.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R32GE were being used as movies trains today for MIB2. I saw them pulling into CIY at about 2:00pm loaded with movie equment. The north end car (4 car train) of the train had it's pantergraph removed.
Robert
Could they put compatible A/C units in the GE GOHd R-32s instead of scrapping them or are they going to be scrapped along with the R-38s?
BTW are the MK GOH R-32s on the future scrap list yet?
BMTJeff
"Could they put compatible A/C units in the GE GOHd R-32s instead of scrapping them or are they going to be scrapped along with the R-38s"
The AC units on the GOHd R-38s are the same. But is it cost effective or not to install them in those 10 cars ? Only the TA knows.
"BTW are the MK GOH R-32s on the future scrap list yet?"
The M&K overhauled will outlast the R-38,40 & 42s. In fact there was some talk on this board of them receiveing another overhaul of sorts, not to be confused with the installation of new flooring. Those Budd built R-32s are in such damn good shape, thats explains why they'll be around longer. Remember, new cars are very expensive, but if you have a car type that is in phenomenal shape, you can put off that new purchase by squeezing more years out of a current fleet such as the R-32s.
The R-38,40 & 42s, They are only stainless steel on the sides, not the roofs. These roofs are made of steel and have a corosion problem, that's why their days are numbered. Edwin Gowen Budd must be smiling down from heaven !
Bill "Newkirk"
No wonder the company went out of business.
If I'm not mistaken Budd built the older cars that were used on the Market Street line in the Philadelphia subway. I rode on those cars in 1996 and at the time they were in remarkably good condition. I think a few of them still survive.
BMTJeff
I would ride those cars no matter how hot it is.
Yes, that was all there was at one time were fans. Bad hair day.
they dont---some r62as are still singles
Oops, right. The R-33 singles are the only ones that can be used on the 7.
Dan
The 7 will be getting the R62 class later this year
R62A
Any idea when? October, November, perhaps? I'm hoping there will still be a few Redbirds plying the rails so I can ride them one last time come October.
November, last I heard
right
Depends on how long it takes to get the R-62s over to the Flushing Line. If the No. 7 is going to continue to use at least some Redbirds through the fall, dumping the singles right now would be silly once the temperatures cool down.
The moves from Westchester to Livonia have started. The 3 Line is nor running 1 5 car linked set from Westchester in addition to 4 of it's traditional singles.
Wait - I was getting some rides on the singles on the #7 this past Saturday, and I could've SWORN I saw 9321 in service.
Did they take them out of service already?
I want to ride them some more before they're gone for good!
Nope. That's 9321 at CIYD. But just because we see one doesn't mean they are all going to bite the dust tomorrow. Don't wait too long for those pictures and rides though.
The singles are very much in service today--the 7 appears to be running all 11 car trains. I counted 11 cars in four seperate trains.
Dan
They probably just dumped a spare.
BTW: Wasn't 9321 on the fantrip?
9321 was sitting in Corona Yard for awhile now, stripped of its parts. The last time I saw it was over at Shea for the Subway Series.
I was up at 207th St yard today. The following is a list of every Redbird in the yard and it's status. I hope you find it helpful.
Stripped and waiting to be loaded on barge. (No Doors, Windows, Seats, Underbody equiptment, etc.):
7750-1, 7752-3, 7754-5, 9486-7, 7836-7, 8610-1, 8654-5, 9544-5, 9508-9, 7834-5, 7788-9, 7814-5, 7870-1, 7902-3 and 9057.
Dead in yard (Parts removed)
8958-9, 9540-1, 9321
Stored in yard (All "alive")
9018-9, 7928-9, 7758-9, 7940-1, 7950-1, 7796-7, 7850-1, 7844-5, 7908-9, 7778-9, 7942-3, 8706-7, 7890-1, 8742-3, 9124-5, 8712-3, 9488-9, 8674-5, 8626-7, 9516-7, 8600-1, 9506-7, 8636-7, 9504-5, 9164-5, 9494-5, 8926-7, 8934-5
Stored, Signed for 7
9552-7, 9548-9
R33s 9321 which was at Coney, was transferred to 207 this week.
I hope this list helps. I will get any new #'s this week when I go back up there.
M.W.
Good work, man! You hear anything interesting on the grapevine?
-Stef
On that note, can you confirm if a R-26/28/29 is residing at Coney Island?
-Stef
YES! there are 4 or 8 cars there. I will have #'s tomorrow.
M.W.
Just got back from Coney Island Yard...... Aside from the Flushing cars there for regular maintenence, there are two R-29's there for scrap. They are: 8800-8801. I'll post any updates as soon as I hear anything.
M.W.
That figures! I had this pair down in my book with a little brown "R" for excessive rust! (one of many pairs). I am not surprised that they are farming out the R29 first; so many of them are in perilous condition - to wit. the 8500-series cars out of Pelham are ROTTEN to the core; I'm surprised they don't shake themselves apart.
wayne
Why is the R-29 worse off than its older cousins, the R-26 and R-28?
Their body panels probably had more Bondo than steel.
That's what I was looking for. Thank You! I thought there was a pair up against the bumping block at CIY next to the CWR Train, but wasn't sure what it was when I saw it.
Thanks! Let me know what else you find out....
-Stef
Geez, could 8800-01 be the first retired Birds to head to the Brooklyn Piers?
Well it's time to test out that upgraded trackage on the SBK.
-Stef
Umm, hehe, did you just say 9552-7, and 9548-9?
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I'd better find my camera and get pics of those mainlines before they're all gone! How many are left on the 7, three pairs?
Filming of Men In Black 2 was going on today and again tomowor in the Yard and Church ave. Broolkyn. Maybe someone can go there to get some autograph.
Robert
i live by there willbe there tomrrow with update before i head off to work
I saw some bright light coming up the B5 ramp and figured it was just a work train. (This during the extended GO over the express track).
Coming home today I saw a Wooden wall up on the center platform of the Chambers St Station on the 'J/Z M' lines. The wall goes the entire length of the platform from what I could tell. But the wall is built up near the edge of the platform (I think Geographic East Side or Brooklyn bound service side however you look at it). Anyway why is it there? Are they getting rid of the center platform?
Maybe it has something to do with the coming reallignment of the Nassau Loop tracks through the Canal Street station?
If they do cut the Nassau loop back to only two revenue tracks, the wall may be going in place to eventually support a false tile wall that will be put in when it is cut back to only the single platform on the west side of the station.
On the other hand, considering the condition of Chambers, if the wooden wall goes all the way up to the ceiling, it may be there to support some kind of pending repair work on the water leaks throughout the station ... or under the worst circumstances, the MTA may be putting in the wood wall to keep the Municipal Building from falling into the station :-)
While I do not know the reason for the wall, the two tracks will run from Canal to Essex. At Essex, the center and Broad Street Tracks will be used. Trains to Broad Street will use the wall platform and trains to Jamaica Center/ Metropolitan will use the island platform. At Canal and Bowery, the current Broad Street bound platform will be used
Do you know if the mezzanine on the south side of Delancey will be reopened? A bridge could be built over the track on that side, as was done in 1999. (It would have to be removable to allow moves from 6th Avenue, which can't access the center track.)
And when is the TA going to get around to building a temporary bridge over the two inner tracks at Canal? It's going to have to get built some day, since construction of the new track connection at the south end will sever the passageway there, leaving northbound passengers stranded on their platform. Or will the passageways from the northbound platform to the bridge platforms reopen temporarily? (They're still there -- the one on the southbound bridge platform is visible through a hole in the temporary plywood wall.) In either case, it would be of much benefit to passengers for something to open ASAP since it's a long walk around.
I recently made my first trip around the City Hall loop. Being my first attempt, I was surprised to have absolutely no problems staying on the train. I was on a R142 in the second car looking out the right side window. However, I didn't see much except for the stairway. There were no lights on in the station. My question is, are the lights always off in the loop? If so, I'm assuming the only way to get a good look at the station is to get on the first car of a Redbird?
To the contrary, I've never seen the station dark. Perhaps the lights were turned off because of the high New York temp. and an effort to conserve electricity...
I once did a "Day One on the IRT" tour of City Hall in the dark (they couldn't get the lights on). Everyone brought flashlights. I thought it was great.
Note: Before anyone asks - the Day One tours have been discontinued.
Blame Rudy and the MTA lawyers.
I once did a "Day One on the IRT" tour of City Hall in the dark (they couldn't get the lights on). Everyone brought flashlights. I thought it was great.
I remember that one... most enjoyable... made it seem a bit spooky. Unfortunately I didn't have a flashlight myself but enough folks did so it didn't matter.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went through the loop several times just to get three pictures of it (two from R142A, one from redbirds). It goes by so fast.
I know this was posted time and time again, but why not run the 2 Q's to 21 St and relay them there...of course the reason is because of 57/6th ave, but why not just close it for a few months until V service is operational?? The walk will not kill anybody (it certainly won't kill the people at Chinatown)...they are running only 6 Shuttle trains too...this will really only serve R. Island and 21 St residents...they can get more service if the Q's ran there, not the S.
Then they do not need the extra cars on the Shuttle...also, I'm sure that the Q's will get backed up, as well as the W's because the Q's run so much more frequently as compared to the W which is only running ~20 trains...
SeaBeach53
And Yes, Sea Beach Fred, the Manny Bridge misses it's old friend Sea Beach.
Seems to me like the TA is actually trying to avoid the Bway-63rd St connection. It hasn't been touched since the mid-90s construction of the north side of the bridge.
It's used whenever the R runs through 63rd, per GO.
It was used a month ago when 63rd was served by a shuttle to 34th. Even some F's used it briefly.
It also may be in use tomorrow. The GO listed on the TA's website says that shuttle trains are running between Queensbridge and Manhattan but it doesn't specify where in Manhattan.
The Queensbridge "S" looks to me like the "V" with training wheels. When the 63rd opens in November(?) the "V" will replace it. OTOH, if they run the Broadway "Q" out there, people might like it and the TA has another fight on its hands.
The V replaces the F on 53rd Street. The F replaces the Shuttle.
The V replaces the F on 53rd Street. The F replaces the Shuttle.
Aha. Got it. But my point is that if they provide a regular service from the 63rd Street all the way down Broadway and people get used to it the TA could have a battle when they shift that service to 6 Ave in November.
Running two Qs means that they have to provide enough trains for two Q services to Queensbridge. The car shortage would make such a service dangerous to pull off (some days there may not be enough trainsets to provide service). They could get those sets by cutting the B to 8 60' car trains, but noooo, everyone here keeps shooting me down on that one.
Also, if you've ever ridden a non-rush hour direction Q, you've seen why trains every 3 minutes is overkill.
Maybe try running some "Q"s to 179th Street occasionally.
BMTJeff
Railfan Report: Marion-Caledonia-Galion-Crestline, Ohio
Well today I thought I would go do some real railfanning on some of the former PRR lines. Without a current drivers' licence, I had to do this on the good ole' bicycle. At present I am staying at Marion, so I got dropped off at the intersection between U.S. 23 and Ohio Rt. 309. Rt. 309 deserves special mention because for almost six miles, it runs parallel to the Conrail Marion Branch (whatever the official name for that is!) I think this is a former NKP line which served Marion from Galion. Today, CSX controls the tracks. Rt.309 runs maybe 300-400 ft away from the tracks making it a great place to pace the train, although this may be quite difficult on the bicycle. I was kinda glad that no trains came through while I was cycling, since there would have been absolutely no time to drop the bike and catch a picture.
The first stop is Caledonia, a town of around 700 population alongside Rt. 309. There are three ungated grade crossings, at the eastern end of town there are two steel structures alongside each other by the water tower. The former westbound track had been torn out (although the structure remains intact). The former eastbound track is now the bidirectional main track. I got here at around 13.40 and caught an eastbound Autorack train -- motive power was two CSX widecabs.
Beyond Caledonia, a friend of mine picked me up in a SUV because she insisted that "it was too dangerous to cycle on 309." In retrospect, I agree that there are more trucks on Rt. 309 than it is desirable to cycle for long distances, but it isn't as impossible as the U.S. 30, for example. However, I was glad that I was picked up, since between Caledonia and Galion the Rt.309 does not follow railroad alignment (and as a result is also unnecessarily hilly).
We arrived at Galion at around 15.00, when I was horrified to find out that a portion of the main track indicated on my map had been torn out. I don't know how out of date this map data is (it came from http://maps.excite.com/ ) but the fact that it mentions B&O and N&W as "railroads" indicate that it may be quite out of date, although it is post-Conrail therefore post-1976. The ex-Erie Lackawanna (??) mainline ran just south of Ohio Rt. 309 between Galion and Mansfield, but between Galion and the Rt.309/Rt.61 intersection, no trace of it remains. I would be interested in further details about this line if anyone knows anything about it. This line used to cross the Galion-Edison-Delaware Conrail line at a diamond in Galion. It looks like they had removed the former chord line in Galion, realigned the Crestline-Marion line through the diamond, built a new connexion for the Galion-Delaware line, and sold most of the land for redevelopment. Today, all the tracks that passed through Galion appears to be CSX controlled; most of it was ex-Conrail stuff.
It must be mentioned at this point that Galion, despite Conrail's tearing up tracks, still has a real nifty station. This station is on the right hand side at an oblique angle if you approach it from Rt.309 westbound. You can't miss it. It's called the Washington Street Station. It's a great photo location if you are prepared to stand in town for three hours (I was not). Unfortunately, these days the Crestline-Galion-Marion line sees rather sparse traffic. If someone had a pic of that during Conrail days, it would be interesting to contrast that with a present day CSX pic -- the scenery remains as archrivals squabble over track ownerships! Those of you who see Conrail as the logical PRR successor and CSX as the logical B&O successor would know what I mean. For me anyway, C&O and NYC tends to fade into obscurity a little.
At the Rt.309/Rt.61 intersection, we veered north for Crestline. Although Crestline was a big PRR town in its days, today it has a population of only 5000. The roundhouse, the big yard, etc, are all gone. There was, however, a PRR signal gantry to be seen in the modest yard. The town, however, isn't too railfan friendly: they built an overpass on Ohio Rt.61; the way the roads are set up made it almost impossible to chase the train through town, and there are large distances between grade crossings. The worst part is, when you hear a train whistle, you are not sure if it is on the Conrail Chicago line (E/W direction) or Shelby-Crestline-Galion (NE/SW direction). Unbelievable as it may seem, the two busy lines cross at grade in Crestline. I guess PRR never built their stuff to the Northeastern standards out here in the Midwest.
When the first train came through at around 17.30, I was at the west end of the town checking out the yard. As my luck would have it, it was an eastbound. I raced to the first grade crossing only to see the motive power pass as I cycled frantically towards the crossing -- three NS widecabs, including one in primer, pulling a long train of general merchandise. It was checked at the junction, and was probably diverging if my non-railfan friend's report from the other end of the town was to be believed. The second train came at around 17.50, but it was stopped outside the interlocking beyond the first grade crossing east of Crestline on the Chicago Line. I raced towards the train to meet it (on parallel roads), only to find that it started to move just as I got to the grade crossing just outside the City Limits. Just my lucky day!
At this point I got bored and stopped railfanning, and did non-railfan things like go round antique shops etc., which, logically, was when things got better. We heard two trains blast through town, saw neither, but just as I was at the Crestline First United Methodist Church getting an ice cream, I heard this blast of horn. I ran for it down to that parking lot by N.Thomas St., and got a CSX unit coal train. Power was two CSX AC widecabs. I'll have the numbers once I get my film developed.
We were about to leave town when, as we took the U.S. 30 over the grade crossing, I spotted a set of headlights. It happened to be a set of two SD-40's doing lite engine towards the yard. You could tell that the first engine was ex-Conrail (drab horn) and the second engine was ex-Chessie (nice A-minor 10th chord). Despite heading back on Rt.309, this was to be the last movement I saw today. Nonetheless this was a good day out, and I'm totally knackerred (it's 2.12am local time and I have to be up at 7am tomorrow). Arrrrgh!!!!
Bed for me -- I'll keep you guys updated with my genuine American(tm) railfanning adventure as I explore the CSX territory around Marion.
P.S. Don't let me forget to mention, this week is Crestline's 150th anniversary -- Sunday 2 July through to Saturday 9 July. The town is having a festival kinda thing, so you guys so try to get there someday. Even after hours there are lots of non-railfan stuff going on, like pony rides, concerts in churches, and free fude. It's worth a trip with wife/husband and kids -- while the railfan in the family railfans, the other guys can amuse themselves with the town's festivities. Have fun!
Lexcie
Great write-up. I'm looking for a NYC Transit connection. Oh yes 4 foot 8.5 inches is the common factor.
CLICK HERE for a humorous animation about the city everyone loves to hate...Subway content too!
Peace,
ANDEE
I laughed so much my staff had to come over and see ... very enjoyable, thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
Glad you enjoyed it, if you check out their main menu there is alot of other good stuff too
Peace,
ANDEE
4-5-6-N-R-1-9?!
I'm still trying to figure out where that station is. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
It must be, it must be....
uhh...
South Ferry, after they refurbed the inner loop, opened it to short-turn 4's and 5's and extended the 6, and built a free transfer to the Whitehall Street station!
I was thinking something along those lines -- but in Midtown?!
Incidentally, the south exits at the two Rectors (1/9 and N/R) are directly across the street from each other. Why not connect them? It wouldn't serve a great demand, but I'm sure it would get some use, and it looks like knocking down two walls and rearranging fare control would do the trick. (Or does the N/R station not have a mezzanine? The 1/9 station has separate mezzanines for the uptown and downtown sides, for no reason I can fathom -- yielding three station entrances on the same small traffic island.)
The 1/9 station doesn't really have any mezzanines at all from what I can tell, just turnstiles stuck inside stairwells. The N/R station also doesn't have mezzanines, it has booths and turnstiles on each platform accessed via separate entrances.
I'd vote for something connecting Whitehall, South Ferry, and Bowling Green stations.
I'd vote for something connecting Whitehall, South Ferry, and Bowling Green stations.
The South Ferry-Bowling Green link used to be called the Bowling Green Shuttle.
I only used the southbound exit at the far south end of the platform (twice) at Rector 1/9, but there's a mini-mezzanine there. Fare control is a HET on the platform, but that could be moved easily enough. The northbound platform is at the same level, so I assume it has a similar configuration.
As I said, I didn't know about Rector N/R. Is there an underpass, by any chance?
I agree that Whitehall - South Ferry - Bowling Green would be more useful. I only suggested the Rectors because connecting them would be dirt cheap and at least somewhat useful. (The N/R doesn't connect to the 1/2/3/9 until way up at 42nd. Rector isn't the best transfer point, since it's only to the local, but it's something. N/R riders who want the express can get it in Brooklyn, at Atlantic or Court.)
As I said, I didn't know about Rector N/R. Is there an underpass, by any chance?
I don't know if there used to be one, but there isn't one in use right now.
I think someone on SubTalk once discussed a Rector-Rector-Wall-Broad-Wall station complex. =)
That would be pretty neat.
I once suggested connecting Park Place (2/3) to City Hall (N/R) -- they, too, are across the street. (The connection might require eliminating part or all of the CH lower level.) While we're at it, CH could be connected under the park to Brooklyn Bridge (4/5/6). That walk from the E to the J/M/Z would be pretty long.
Or perhaps the WTC stations could be connected to each other and to the Fulton Street complex a block away. Yes, the 2/3 and A/C would stop twice in the same station complex.
Or do both! The 4/5 and J/M/Z would be added to the list of lines that serve the same station twice.
Well, if they built a moving walkway between Times Square and Grand Central and declared it one station complex, then I suppose that would count (except it also has the 2-3 A-C-E 7 and soon to be Q).
Very funny.
Priceless! :)
So True, so true.
Absolutely hilarious!!!
Thanks, I thought it most humorous myself
Peace,
ANDEE
Ugh, all these great reviews of this cartoon makes me wish I hadn't screwed up my flash installation. I'll just have to take your words for it...
Very funny. And very true, too!
--Mark
ARTICLE about Metro Card jam scam...
Peace,
ANDEE
As many of you know QSC got out of the retail MC business last Friday.
I guess 2/3 of our customer base thought MVM & Token Booths gave them better service ... personally it was a big pain in the ass & a money looser for us, but the City looses another way to obtain SERVICE.
Disclaimer: Am speaking for myself & not my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
Article says that after the bill return is jammed the machines are useless...but credit cards still work, right?
And coins, presumably, too.
Easily fixed, but at a cost. The design of the existing one (if it rejects through a separate slot - I've never seen a NYC MVM) can be fixed, but at a cost. Bill rejectors (the mechanism where the bill goes in) are available in both separate return slot and "reverser" styles. Looks like (at great expense of course) this could be readily defeated by replacing the bill rejectors with one that pushes the bill back out the same slot it gezinta like so many others. If the input slot is jammed, bill can't go in.
Scientifically speaking, Fudd's theorem states, "if you push something hard enough, it will fall over." Teslicle's devium to Fudd's theorem, "it goes IN, it MUST come out" needs application here.
MVM's reject through a separate slot just beneath the input slot. The MVM's are very forgiving of creased or faded bills that other machines often reject. Also, the MVM's suck in those bills with a sense of urgency. The MTA must be earning interest right from the time the bills enter the machine!
Noticed that the article says MVM's are available in 452 of 468 stations. Anyone know off-hand which 16 stations are MVM-free and why?
CG
One of the MVM-free ones is (surprise surprise) 34st Penn Station on the A/C/E. The rehab goes much faster if they don't have to shuffle both token booths and machines around.
I suspect Broad Channel also doesn't have one. I mean, where would they put it?
Could MVMs go in Penn Station proper, near but not inside the subway stations?
What's the fare control situation at Broad Channel?
Could MVMs go in Penn Station proper, near but not inside the subway stations?
There are several of them at the 1/2/3/9 entrances. I suspect that they will come to the A/C/E once the rehab is done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are already some MVMs--the main booth by the main entrance to Penn on the lower level and both local plats at the 35 street entrance.
What about those stations on the Rockaway Park line? Are not those the least used on the system?
Actually 34th Street on the A/C/E has MVM's located at the south end of the station directly beneath 8th Avenue (not at the token booth on the C/E northbound platform, but the token booth for the A).
I did notice on the MTA website that Avenue H on the Brighton appears to be MVM-free, as does Broad Channel. So that's two.
CG
I did notice on the MTA website that Avenue H on the Brighton appears to be MVM-free, as does Broad Channel. So that's two.
Avenue H has MVMs. I went there once to buy a fun pass. I didn't bother to check whether the station had them or not.
That is why we are needed. We can contact police if we see someone jamming the MVM and of course we can take your bills to sell you a MetroCard. We can take a $20.00 and sell a $3.00 card.
We can take a $50 with a $30 minimum purchase and a $100 with a $63 minimum purchase.
Support your friendly neighborhood Station Agent. Save the Booths!
Just the other day at Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex, we had a sickc ustomer on the platform. We were able to contact police and EMS and the customer was removed to the hospital. The same day, same station we also had a fire alarm going off and a homeless person ejected twice( within 5 minutes the customer was ejected twice!) We also had another homless outstretch removed from the downtown platform.
All this within 30 minutes. We dont know the outcome from the hospitl but they were taken. What would happen if we are not there
Now, I'd love to see an MVM do all that.
Right! Tell the politicans you want your friendly station agents in the booths!
I do support my friendly station agent. On the other hand, I’m not so in favor of saving the booths. I would prefer that the metrocard (or single use card) selling be automated as much as possible, so that SAs can be deployed outside of the booths helping customers, and alerting police, dealing with sick passengers, etc, etc.
I don’t see the two directions as incompatible. As for giving change for a $100 on the subway (with a minimum payment of $63!), get real!
John
As for giving change for a $100 on the subway (with a minimum payment of $63!), get real!
Are you saying that the minimum is too high or that people shouldn't be able to exchange their legal tender? Those fair weather MVM's only give you like $6 in change and even then it's only in those transit tokens. Yes the token agents should be able to leave the booths and they should also be able to sell tokens. If even despite the current low crime levels some alarmists see this as a safety issue the agents should be issued firearms or tazers.
Regarding the minimum-- it was only when the unlimited cards came out that we were even allowed to accept $50 and $100 for any purchase.
The MVMs give out SBAs (Susan B Anthony) or Golden Dollar coins as part of their change.
I have had customers come up to my window and ask for one token- they attempted to pay with a $100.00 bill. I told them it was too big and then they tried to buy two tokens. I then told them the minimum purchase for a $100 is $63. They then tried a $50-- I finally told them-- use a $20 or smaller.(Still tried to buy one token). They then came up with the exact change.
I am not opposed to leaving the booth in safe areas but some stations, even now do not get lunch overnight due to safety concerns for the Night lunch relief. I could see the S/A outside one of those booths--probably mugged the first night. Some other stations while they do get lunch we must be careful and usually a police officer is there around lunch time for the S/A.
As far as weapons, I dont see NYCT spending money to get us all pistol permits. I imagine thy would probably set up all sorts of rules so any S/A using the weapon would probably be suspended(without pay) pending charges which would probably be ruled in favor of the suspect and then the S/A has no job.
I am not opposed to leaving the booth in safe areas but some stations, even now do not get lunch overnight due to safety concerns for the Night lunch relief. I could see the S/A outside one of those booths--probably mugged the first night. Some other stations while they do get lunch we must be careful and usually a police officer is there around lunch time for the S/A.
Booths won't be needed if the station agents work in a customer-service role and no longer handle money. Now, if what you're saying is that some stations are so dangerous that it's unsafe for night relief personnel even when money is not involved, in other words just in walking to the booth, well, I'd say those stations aren't safe for anyone and should be shut at night.
Sation agents are not needed. As for saftey concerns. Install phones that connect people directly to 911. Many of the stations scheduled to loose a part time station agent such as the secondary entrence to sheepshead bay on the brighton. The entrence is left unattened for 90% of the day anyway. What is a fe more hourd. The MVM are faster and more convient than walking up to the token boothe anyway. IT takes me less than 30 secounds to order and pay for my mothly unlimited ride card credit card aproval and all
And if you collapse on the floor how will you call 9-1-1?
We are building a broad base of community support with groups suchj as the Straphangers Campaign, tri-State Transportation Campaign(TSTC) among others. Several mayoral and council candidates also support us. A public hearing is to beheld next week in city council chambers.
The Subway-buff seems to be going in a "new direction" these days, or am I just confused ?
BTW, this is NOT a negitive comment.
Mr t__:^)
The issue is not my job (and yes, I like my job). The issue is customer servce-a MVM cannot give you a $3 card from a$20. The MVM can not tell you there us no train here due to a G.O.
The MVM cannot issue block tickets if there is a service disruption.
The MVM cannot look at the customer and based on their appearance (ie a senior citizen or person witrh a disability) and give them a transfer to another line that they can handle (no stairs, no long steep ramps, etc.)
Yes- I am a shop steward but our customers come first.
>>> The issue is customer servce-a MVM cannot give you a $3 card from a$20. The MVM can not tell you there us no train here due to a G.O. The MVM cannot issue block tickets if there is a service disruption.
The MVM cannot look at the customer and based on their appearance (ie a senior citizen or person witrh a disability) and give them a transfer to another line that they can handle (no stairs, no long steep ramps, etc.) <<<
Most of the things that you mention (except making change) could be done by a station agent no longer tied to a token booth. The public took it well when buses went to exact change instead of having the driver make change (or having a separate conductor). The public will adapt to the elimination of token booths.
Tom
With due respect you are missing the concept of ***choice***
ATM use is optional, Self-Serve gas is optional,e-filing your taxes is optional, self-bagging of groceries is optional.Not everyone to this date has a bank account--look at all the check cashing places.
By saying close the booths your are forcing riders to use the MVMs and MetroCard whether they want to or not. Yesterday pm and early this am I helped several people who could nto enter due to the HEET not letting them in and they moved to another HEET which displayed Just Used. At another station with one HEET again the same problem. I cleaned the HEETs at both stations and still problems.
Would you want to wait for a roaming S/A to visit the station to help you-? remember if all there is are HEETs then you cant jump!
I realize you are telling riders that it is tough luck. What a way to impress tourists--tell them they have no choice!
Sorry,Pal- I disagree--The current system lets a customer *choose* how they want to pay their fare.
We are building a broad coalition of community boards, politicians and advocacy groups. We are even having customers sign a petition to Governor Pataki.
In fact, the city councuil has scheduled a public hearing on 7/11/2001 at 10am at City Hall COuncil Chambers.
ATM use is optional
However teller hours are limited, some branches have almost eliminated tellers and many banks charge money for teller transactions involving low-end accounts. Maybe people who use the token booth for transactions should not get the 10% bonus.
Self-Serve gas is optional
Not every gas station has full serve, except in New Jersey. Nearly all dual gas stations charge more for full serve.
e-filing your taxes is optional
I'm sure it won't be for long.
self-bagging of groceries is optional.
That's only because there's already a person working there. As self-checkouts become more common that will not be the case. Nevertheless, supermarket checkout people (and gas station attendants) are low-paid. Station agents are not.
Not everyone to this date has a bank account--look at all the check cashing places.
People who use check cashing places are incredibly stupid (and I'm not afraid to say that). I'm surprised that they're even potty trained.
Would you want to wait for a roaming S/A to visit the station to help you-? remember if all there is are HEETs then you cant jump!
Courtesy phones solve the problem. The person would never even need to show up. Letting a person through can be done right there, or halfway around the world.
I realize you are telling riders that it is tough luck. What a way to impress tourists--tell them they have no choice!
They already have no choice in Washington, and that has always been the case, yet tourists still like the DC Metro.
We are building a broad coalition of community boards, politicians and advocacy groups. We are even having customers sign a petition to Governor Pataki.
Is there a counter-petition I can sign?
Not everyone to this date has a bank account--look at all the check cashing places.
People who use check cashing places are incredibly stupid (and I'm not afraid to say that). I'm surprised that they're even potty trained.
Maybe some of them aren't ...
Would you want to wait for a roaming S/A to visit the station to help you-? remember if all there is are HEETs then you cant jump!
Courtesy phones solve the problem. The person would never even need to show up. Letting a person through can be done right there, or halfway around the world.
At much lower cost, I might add. And probably faster.
We are building a broad coalition of community boards, politicians and advocacy groups. We are even having customers sign a petition to Governor Pataki.
Is there a counter-petition I can sign?
I'd sign too!
> People who use check cashing places are incredibly stupid
Some people don't trust banks, due to harsh experience.
And banks won't open accounts for some people, even if they have the minimum balance.
Unless you are okay with sending your paycheck through the mail to a non-local branch, you're kind of out of choices.
Besides; if your {INSERT_ESSENTIAL_SERVICE_HERE} is about to be cut off due to an unpaid $50 bill, or if your credit card is about to charge you a $35 late fee, it's much better to have $90 today than $100 in a week.
Besides; if your {INSERT_ESSENTIAL_SERVICE_HERE} is about to be cut off due to an unpaid $50 bill, or if your credit card is about to charge you a $35 late fee, it's much better to have $90 today than $100 in a week.
That depends on how essential that essential service is. (Electric service probably is. Cable TV definitely is not.)
>>> People who use check cashing places are incredibly stupid <<<
But not as stupid as those that make such a statement. Some people are not able to obtain checking accounts, and some people cannot use them because of outstanding judgments, or tax obligations.
Tom
Nobody has to open a checking account. Banks are required to offer savings accounts with no minimum. They cost less than check cashing places.
>>> Banks are required to offer savings accounts with no minimum <<<
That does not solve the judgment problem, and it is doubtful that the banks will cash checks for free for a higher amount than the depositor has on account. At the least they will require it to be deposited for long enough for the check to clear.
Tom
That does not solve the judgment problem
What judgement problem?
and it is doubtful that the banks will cash checks for free for a higher amount than the depositor has on account.
Cash doesn't let you do that either, how is a bank account then a disadvantage?
>>> What judgement problem? <<<
People who have outstanding judgments are subject to having their bank accounts seized. One day the money is there, the next day it is all gone.
>>> Cash doesn't let you do that either, how is a bank account then a disadvantage? <<<
????? You seem to lose the thought thread rather quickly. I was pointing out why some people use check cashing services rather than have checking accounts. You pointed out that banks are required to allow anyone to have a savings account. I pointed out that a low balance savings account would probably not help for cashing checks. I do not understand your reply above.
Tom
People who have outstanding judgments are subject to having their bank accounts seized. One day the money is there, the next day it is all gone.
Maybe they can use check cashing services, but these are exceptional circumstances. They shouldn't be catered to every step of the way.
????? You seem to lose the thought thread rather quickly. I was pointing out why some people use check cashing services rather than have checking accounts. You pointed out that banks are required to allow anyone to have a savings account. I pointed out that a low balance savings account would probably not help for cashing checks. I do not understand your reply above.
One can deposit checks into an account with any balance. I don't understand your response.
????? You seem to lose the thought thread rather quickly. I was pointing out why some people use check cashing services rather than have checking accounts. You pointed out that banks are required to allow anyone to have a savings account. I pointed out that a low balance savings account would probably not help for cashing checks. I do not understand your reply above.
One can deposit checks into an account with any balance. I don't understand your response.
You can deposit any size check into a low-balance account, but you won't be able to get cash for it.
You can deposit any size check into a low-balance account, but you won't be able to get cash for it.
Once it clears you can withdraw it.
You can deposit any size check into a low-balance account, but you won't be able to get cash for it.
Once it clears you can withdraw it.
True, but that can take quite a while, up to several days depending on the nature of the check.
The best thing that could come out of all of this is for the Station Agents to understand that their jobs depend on "service" being their middle names. Present company understands that, but is this the exception or the norm ?
Mr t__:^)
Occasionally folks still try to stuff a dollar in the farebox.
Mr t__:^)
90% of the time Sheepshead Bay (South Entrance) doesn't have anyone there. I would agree with that BUT 70% of that 90% the entrance is closed. It closes over night, they even lock up the HEET's and MVM's.
Now what is the point of that?
System Safety and customer Safety. If the HEETs were to remain open 24/7, then vandalism and vagrants would be common--more than now.
I have in my posession some info from Mark Green who stated that NYCT says HEETs would not solve the problem. In fact, NYCT refused to install HEETs at one part-time location (A transfer station)due to vandalism and customer safety concerns.)
ARTICLE about the trendy L train???
Peace,
ANDEE
NY subways have always entertained me while they were transporting me.
"back in the day" (teehee) when it was simply the 14th Crosstown(an alternate way to/from my apt in the alphabet) it certainly was a different train. Entertainging riders not particularly, but the equipment--ancient BMT cars not seen anywhere else in Manhattan.
Why do the links to the articles in the Daily News and Newsday (and other papers) take me directly to the articles, but the links to the articles in the New York Times take me to a sign-in/register page? Isn't it possible to go directly to the Times article without requiring a sign-in or registration?
It is if you already have signed in at some point in the past and stored a "cookie" for their site. The other newspapers' web sites do not require a login/password to read the stories at all. The Times does but it's free to register.
-Dave
yeah, the TIMES can be a pain in the ass that way
Peace,
ANDEE
Especially when your cookies have been tossed :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Okay, NOW I'VE SEEN IT ALL!
I guess if you get off at Sutter Avenue, instead of chic, you're chit?
Well I did buy my L line t-shirt the other day, but it wasn't for that reason, that's for sure.
That tears it. Now that wealthy yuppies AND the NY TImes have gotten in on this, I'm NEVER taking the L again. Aah, sweet Canarsie, you will be missed.
"The eyes and ears of the system". We hear this saying parroted constantly, here and elsewhere, when it comes to token booth clerks. However when I ride the system daily between 0300 and 0500 I always see many sleeping clerks. How can they be "the eyes and ears of the system" while asleep?
What is official TA policy on this?
Peace,
ANDEE
Thoughts on this please
Even station agents who stay are of fairly limited use as "eyes and ears" of the system, being locked away in booths. If plans ever come to pass and station agents spend more time outside the booths in a customer-service role, with fare sales handled by MVM's, then they might be more useful in the relevant context. But not now.
Sleeping Station Agents is against the rules, no ifs and no exzceptions and they should be reported. If supervision catches them sleeping they are in big trouble.
>>>...no exzceptions and they should be reported. <<<
Well I won't report them, the TA has plenty of internal rats as it is, why do you think I didn't mention any locations. Not my style. As they say. But, I do see it alot.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wouldnt report them either but supervision will catch up with the sleepyhead or a customer will complain.
I also would rather have the station agents outside the booths. There is only so much to see in their range of vision, and they can't help out if there is a problem (ie. sick passenger, someone holding doors, etc.) down on the platform. Nor can they notice a loiterer, or an act of vandalism, away from them. Can't see much, hear much, do much in there.
If, in larger stations, the ending of the need to sell tokens means fewer station personnel are required, and therefore money can be saved, I'm all for it. Productivity goes up everywhere in the economy, and that's how it happens. If it didn't we'd be spending 50 percent of our income for food, as we did 100 years ago. TWU members gain the benefits of other's rising productivity in what they buy -- it becomes cheaper or better relative to what they earn. They have an obligation to do likewise.
One thing I do NOT agree with is un-manned stations. As discussed in other threads, I'd rather eliminate conductors (there'd still be one person on a train). Or close stations at night, and operate special night buses connecting to a smaller subway system. Unmanned stations are a bad idea.
ARTICLEabout Main Street/Flushing escalator woes.
Peace,
ANDEE
So what else is new?
TA should send the bill for this work to the incompetent who designed the machinery spaces w/o a floor drain.
On my daily B train into manhattan this morning, i was surprised to see that the mini-maps on the walls of the subway cars were updated for July 22!
The train I was on, (brooklyn B), of course did not exist, and all the other changes were there.
Needless to say i was mesmerized and missed my stop because i was looking over the map...
Alan Scott
PS - they really screwed oer chinatown big time.....absolutely no extended M service at all to brooklyn to make up for the missing B/D/Q. I would've thought that would have been easy ot implement. Didn't they have the M running to B'klyn at times other than rush hour in the past?
PPS - so when I got off the train I asked the token booth person if she had any of the new maps for the July 22 changes. She said all she had was the M. Bridge brochures. So the new maps are out - somewhat.
This is not new. It means that the maps are printed (at least for the subway cars) and someone is getting a jump on July 22 by chaning them now.
Talk about confusing the riders.
There are also new mini-maps in the brochures that they hand out about the change.
Saw the updated maps on the R40 Q I rode on, but when I went to the Transit Store at Grand Central they only had March ones.
I'm going straight to 370 Jay st tomorrow to get one. If they don't have it, the customer version doesn't exist yet.
Wait, customer service isn't open on holidays, is it. Damn, I'll have to settle for trying token booths and the Transit Museum gift shop.
Got a flyer yesterday from Shoreline Trolley. There is to be a fan trip starting 10:30 AM at Chambers St ( J line ). They will cover the Nassau street lines (including soon to be abandoned trackage), go to Metropolitan Avenue and then to the 38th dock where the train will be coupled to 2 diesel engines to go through the Bush Terminal area.
Its $35 for adults in advance to benefit March of Dimes. Sounds like fun and worth getting up early on a Sunday morning for.
Please e-mail me at Skip8096@Yahoo.com with information on registration, etc.
See my posting on 6/15.
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=228777
That's exactly what my flyer says. Thanks for the link. To everyone else, look back to post 228777 for more details.
It shall be operating on Sunday leaving boston North station at 8:00 AM.
Roger Arcara was the Boswell of the New York, Westchester & Back (now surviving as the Dyre Ave. Line and New England Thruway) and I just noticed his book on eBay. I have this item and enjoy it very much.
IMO, for all the inflation of prices on eBay, books are a better buy than scarcer collectibles. Some of the prices on maps and plans realy blow my mind. Recently two nice but not amazing blueprint maps, one for a part of the original trackage near Brighton Beach and another for some ENY trackage went for between $120 and $140 each.
I was recently looking at one of those 1948 BofT subway maps. That's an outstanding map, in my semi-professional opinion and, if it were a coin, would be considered a "key date" or must-have item for anyone who hopes for anything like a complete subway map collection. still, I was amazed to see one for go for more than $100! Yet, just a week or so ago, one sold for less than $24.
Sometimes patience pays.
Paul,
People who bid on ebay are crazy (I should know, I am one of them).
But the prices fluctuate on the same item. It all depends on when they are offered and how badly someone wants them.
Example: 1972 Subway map - both versions - went as high as $76.00 once. The next time I saw them offered they went for less than $20.00.
I have some bids out on a couple of items now (no, I will not tell anyone my ebay name). If I am outbid I might go higher and then again I might not. I am starting to control my urges and concentrating on more unique subway items offered since I already have a lot of the more common ones.
Allan
I thought that book would go much higher. I planned to list the same book and another about the same RR in the near future. Prices on E-bay have not yet slowed with the economy. One book I was interested in ("Diesels of the Sunrise Trail") was over $50 whin I lost interest.
The MTA has issued a special edition of The Map for the U.S. Tennis Open.
The "cover" has - the map in gold letters with the words "official New York City tennis subway in blue letters over and around it.
It has the subway map on both sides. On one side is the March 2001 version. The other side has a slightly smaller version with "balloons" highlighting various places in the 5 boros where tennis facilties exist (schools, parks, clubs).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt if these will be generally available except at certain token booths near the tennis stadium and other related places.
I was able to get my hands on 15 copies (my employer is one of the big Corporate sponsers). If anyone would like one of the copies that I was able to get (and I know you do), this is how we will do it:
1) Send me an E-mail requesting one (and only one per person)
2) I will respond with my name and mailing address.
3) Send me by regular mail - a Stamped Self-Addressed envelope.
The postage is 56 cents (the P.O. raised the 2nd ounce rate by a penny last week). I recommend a legal size #10 envelope since the map will fit better.
4) I will then send one out to you (and drop you an E-mail when it is sent).
The requests will be handled based on which ones I receive first - determined by the date and time on the E-mail. If I get more than 15 requests I will hold them in case I can get more copies.
Allan
Did Brooklyn trolleys ever use grand unions in their track work and if so where were they ? does anyone know ? thanks. Karl
Brooklyn was famous for being a massive trolley system with not a single grand union**.
Someone once told me which junction came closest, but it has completely gone from my brain. Sorry about that.
**In case anyone doesn't know, a grand union is a trolley junction where two two-track trolley lines cross and switches are provided left and right from every direction so a trolley entering the junction could take any route (except reverse). They were fabulously expensive to build and maintain, not to mention being something of an operational nuisance.
Could the "almost" grand union have been at the foot of the Williamsburg Bridge ? -- Don't know just a guess that perhaps will jog your memory...
My vague memory is that it was somewhere in the great triangle formed by Fulton Street, Broadway and the East River, where it seemed like you couldn't walk more than 30 paces in any direction without getting run over by a trolley.
However, the great bulk of the trolley system was gone before I even knew it was going, so a lot of the info about other parts of the system I never recalled seeing tended to go in one ear and out the other.
thanks for the info....any model grand unions in 'o' or ho?
Seems to me that there was an article in MR about these not too long ago. Within the past year fer sure.
Elias
...any model grand unions in 'o' or ho?
No commercial ones, but at least three members of the East Penn Traction Club have constructed them from scratch - two in O, one in HO. And there's a fellow in North Carolina who built one in N on a dare, just to prove it could be done. (Another modeler brought back N scale girder rail from Japan and presented it to him with the challenge; regrettably, I've never found an American source for N scale girder rail, and I've been told that the Japanese manufacturer who made that rail is no longer in business.) As far as I know it's still in his collection of "stuff"; I've tried to acquire it a couple of times over the years but with no success.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought Grand Union was a supermarket.
I wonder if the trolleys upstate used Wegmans.
No silly. Everyone knows the trolleys only use Tops.
As long as they don't use Schnucks. (That's the name of a St. Louis-based supermarket chain. Really!)
If you’re looking for bizarre supermarket chain names, you can’t do better/worse than Piggly Wiggly, which is in south-eastern states!
John
No need to go that far ... just look for Wawa in central and spouth Joisey.
--Mark
Gee-olly.
NYC needs bigger supermarkets... them places up in boston put this town to shame.
Wawa isn't wierd. It's based in Wawa, Pennsylvania and is an old estsblished diary that got into the convience store business about a dozen years ago. Their original plant (and most likely corporate HQ) is on old US 1 in Wawa Township.
Actually their headquarters are located in Springfield, PA (Delaware County) 3 Miles or so from Philly and about a half mile down Route 1 from the Franklin Mint. They're all through south jersey, Pennsy, and Dleaware. They've got some of best best coffee!!!!
And their stores are all over Maryland, too.
And the coffee/sub commericals are all over the tube.
They broke into the discount gasoline market about 2 years ago. I remember when you could get gas at a Wawa FULL SERVE for 75 cents a gallon. Aw man, those were the days.
They're still the cheapest for gas around here usually 5-10cents a gallon cheaper than everyone else.
When I first came down to the philly area for college in '88 I saw the name wawa and though "why don't they have Dell Shannon singing the jingle?"
LOL
When I was a youngster in New York we had Bohacks, Grand Union, Dilbert Brothers, and a number of other supermarket chains----all gone by the boards I reckon. At the multitude of candy stores that dotted the neighborhood, some served Breyers, Reids, Meadow Gold, Bordens, Hortons, and my favorite Sealtest. I guess they've gone my the boards for the most part as well. When we served spaghetti at our house, usually three times a week, we had a choice of Ronzoni, LaRosa, Paramount, Prince, and Julietta----most of those have gone by the boards. Things change and we have to accept it even it it bothers us. As far as the Sea Beach was concerned, well I'll leave it at that.
When I was a youngster in New York we had Bohacks, Grand Union, Dilbert Brothers, and a number of other supermarket chains----all gone by the boards I reckon.
Grand Union's still around.
At the multitude of candy stores that dotted the neighborhood, some served Breyers, Reids, Meadow Gold, Bordens, Hortons, and my favorite Sealtest. I guess they've gone my the boards for the most part as well.
Breyers and Sealtest are still with us.
When we served spaghetti at our house, usually three times a week, we had a choice of Ronzoni, LaRosa, Paramount, Prince, and Julietta----most of those have gone by the boards.
Ronzoni and Prince are still in business, although the big Ronzoni plant overlooking the LIRR line near Woodside was demolished a few years ago and replaced by a shopping plaza.
Breyers and Sealtest are still with us.
The Breyers name is still with us. Somebody else bought them out, closed the ice cream plant, laid everybody off, and put the name on their own ice cream. The closed plant could be seen for years from the subway-surface lines in southwest Philly.
Somebody else bought them out, closed the ice cream plant, laid everybody off, and put the name on their own ice cream.
For at least some of the flavors, most notably Vanilla Bean and Mint Chocolate Chip, it is the original Breyer's recipe. I miss the Chocolate Mint Chip that they produced, though (chocolate ice cream with mint chips in it)... Howard Johnson's was the only other brand that carried it, and of course they're gone too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can still have a picture of part of the Breyer's Queens Blvd ice cream plant.
IIRC Bill Newkirk has a postcard of a #7 Flushing bound (in white livery - due to the graffiti scourge)taken between the Rawson and Lowery Street Stations. The picture is from an apartment house roof on 39th place, south side of QB. He captures the train and the NYC skyline in the background, but if you know the neighborhood you can pick out the old Breyer's plant and the Swingline Staple factory. I got the card at the Shoreline Trolley Museum gift shop.
Let's see... here it is! (If Branford sells it, I've got it... at least in the postcard department.)
Hopefully I can get back up there for Autumn in New York... National Capital (Wheaton, Maryland) has their big shindig on 21 October so there's no conflict. (I'm a member there as well, courtesy of my younger daughter, who presented me with membership as a Father's Day gift - an incentive to come visit her since she lives less than three miles away.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grand Union's still around.
But they're retreating. Here in Jersey they've sold out to Stop & Shop. The Grand Union chain overextended badly... many years ago the Colonial Stores in Virginia and North Carolina were purchased by Big Star, just as Grand Union had purchased Empire Markets. Then GU and BS merged (one bought the other, I just don't remember which), and along the way they picked up a few other small chains as well. Distribution channels got long, supplier problems (for store brand merchandise) got severe, and the house of cards fell down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here in Jersey they've sold out to Stop & Shop.
Actually, Stop & Shop is just one small piece of the huge Royal Ahold empire, based in the Netherlands. In addition to S&S, Ahold also owns not one but two Giant chains (but not the small, locally owned chain in the Binghamton area), Tops, and BI-LO. (They also owned Edwards and Finast but absorbed them into S&S and Tops.)
What I don't get is why Ahold hasn't expanded in the U.S. past the East Coast. I guess it's just a matter of time.
Incidentally, I thought the Tops name had expanded substantially when it replaced Finast in northeast Ohio, but I just discovered that there are also Tops supermarkets in Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. I wonder if they'd accept my BonusCard there.
The local Shop Rite 'franchisee' around here is in BIG trouble-same problem...overextending themselves..PLUS incredible competition- In Middletown alone, they compete against at least FOUR other chains [Stop & Shop, a chain from PA called Redner's, Price Chopper from the Albany area*, and a chain from Boston called Hanneford's], and now Wal-Mart is building one of those Super Wal-Marts with a grocery in it....About the ONLY chains that haven't built in this area are the two biggies from upstate-Tops and Wegmans.....
*The Golub family......
See my other post. Tops has built in your area, only it's called Stop & Shop. You'll never find both Tops and S&S in the same area.
But what's taking Wegmans so long? They even have a store in Princeton.
Same deal or relationship between Waldbaums and A&P, both owned by the Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company. I think they own Food Emporium in Manhattan. They share the same "store brand" Americas Choice.
avid
Incidentally, the Hannaford supermarket people (who also run "Super Shop & Save") are based in Scarborough, ME and not Boston. As for "store brands," we have "Top Crest" at the Springfield, MA-based "Big Y". (Just for the hell of it, what ever happened to "Food Club" ?)
And Hannafords was bought a year or so ago by.....the Food Lion creeps from down south.......
"the Food Lion creeps from down south"
Why do you say food lion creeps? YOu know they were set up by the union in that ABC piece and won bigtime $$$ don't you?
"Why do you say food lion creeps?"
Ever seen one of those nature shows on lions? Or watched a cat about to pounce on a rat or squirrel? A cat -- or a big cat like a lion -- creeps up on their prey.
In other words, I don't think the poster was necessarily insulting Food Lion. I think he was making a joke about their name. The thread IS about funny supermarket names, after all.
...the Food Lion creeps from down south...
Actually, the Food Lion folks are the nicest ones in North Carolina - clean and cheap - unlike their main competition. (As a general rule, Winn Dixie's cheap but a bit shabby, Harris Teeter is clean but expensive, and Byrd's is not-so-cheap and very dirty - there are exceptions to all of them, of course.) Indeed, when we go home we buy quite a few items at the Food Lion nearest our house to bring back to Jersey with us; some, of course, are items we can't get in New Jersey, but others we buy simply because they're 30% cheaper in Food Lion than at any store in Jersey. The publicity problems Food Lion has encountered have been due to events staged for the media by union organizers, which in North Carolina has had the effect of eliminating what little support the union might have gotten.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What's interesting about supermarkets is that there are no nationwide chains. I've never heard an explanation of why that is so.
I think Kroger, Safeway and Winn-Dixie are about the closest things to a nationwide chain, but they each fall far short. It is rather curious, to say the least.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Distribution channels are a major factor, I presume, as well as the regional nature of people's tastes. In a major metropolitan area there will be demand for almost anything, but can you imagine a sufficient demand for grits in Provo, Utah or for tofu in Louisburg, North Carolina? Because of these factors, beyond a certain point there's no economy of scale, and given the slim margin of profit in the grocery industry (they make their profit on flipping their inventory many times over in the course of a year) they're better off concentrating on dominating or being a major player in one region.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Safeway used to be the largest nationwide chain, but their efforts to fight off an attempted takeover by the wild-and-wacky Washington D.C.-based Haft family in the late 1980s forced a major stock buy-back and consolidation. Albertson's is bigger than Safeway now, while I believe Kroeger still leads in total numberof stores. Winn-Dixie also has retrenched slightly, and Wal-Mart could be the No. 3 supermarket chain now, based on the number of SuperCenters (usually 175,000 to 225,000 square feet) they've opened around the country in the past few years.
As far as I know "Shop and Save" is operated by Hannaford, Inc. out of Scarborough, ME. The have some supermarkets which are simply known as "Hannaford's." (e.g., US Route 5 in Brattleboro, VT.) They are Maine's #1 supermarket chain. Their biggest competitor would have to be "Shaw's" based in Massachusetts. My family used to shop at a "Super Shop & Save" on US Route 1 in Saco, back when we lived in Old Orchard Beach, which is one town over.
Top Crest and Food Club (which is still around) are generic generics. They show up at a variety of supermarkets around the country.
Yes, A&P owns Food Emporium. The only difference between the two is that prices are high at A&P and outrageous at FE. (My two nearest supermarkets are an FE and a Gristede's, which has even higher prices.)
Of course! Captive market. In inner city markets, shops are small because of high rents, buyers get less choices of size and variety.
Buyers have less storage space (in Apartments) in refrigerators or freezers. Most urban shoppers hand carry their purchases from stores to there homes. So highier prices, less choice, less compitition.
All and all less is more!
avid
Well,actually...the site where S&S opened was the site of a former locally owned store that went under,and its property was a VERY hot parcel with Wegman's and several others bidding on it besides S&S. My sis lives in Rochester, and Wegmans beats Tops any DAY AS far as quality,etc is concerned.
The Wegman's across the street from the Galleria Mall in Buffalo has a fantastic selection of food since it was built with about as much floor space as the new super-supermarkets in the southern and western states.
As far as other weird names, San Antonio-based HEB dominates the markets its in south and central Texas. The abbreviated name isn't that strange on the face of it, but since the founder of the store's name was Harold E. Butts, you can kind of see why they use his initials.
Ah, the good old Tops-Wegmans war. As a Cornellian ('97), I know it well.
They're both top-notch supermarkets, but, given the choice (and insufficient time or reason to go to both), I go to Tops. Way back in 1994 or thereabouts, the specialty foods manager at the Ithaca Tops expanded the kosher food offerings at my request. That's right, all it took was one request, and this in a city without much of a market for kosher food. I'm rarely brand loyal, but if I'm in an area with a Royal Ahold supermarket, that's who gets my money.
(The Ithaca Wegmans, OTOH, once forbade me from taking pictures in the store. They were afraid that I was going to bring them to Tops next door and reveal Wegmans' prices or something.)
It still amazes me that Chicago only has two main grocery store chains (Dominick's and Jewel-Osco) when much smaller towns have three or four chains to chose from.
When I was living in tiny Beaufort, South Carolina for a couple years, we had FoodMax, Winn-Dixie, BI-LO, Food Lion, Piggly Wiggly, A&P, as well as the military comissary on the Parris Island Marine Corps base. SIX chains in a town of less than 50,000 people!!
In Jacksonville Florida, Winn-Dixie (where I worked in high school -- probably the weirdest job I've ever had), Food Lion, Albertson's and Publix were the big players, not to mention two large Navy comissaries. Publix is a very nice chain with clean stores and good selection (and I understand they treat their employees unusually well), but to my knowledge they haven't expanded much outside of their Florida and south Georgia turf.
Here in Chicagoland, Dominick's (owned by Safeway) and Jewel-Osco (owned by Albertson's) almost completely dominate the market. I think they've managed to crush any sort of encroaching competition -- even from Midwestern giant Kroger -- and have even been accused of price-fixing on certain items. Out in the suburbs, there are a small handful of Eagle Food Stores, and curiously enough, even a couple of Piggly Wiggly stores up in Lake County to liven things up a bit. Don't ask me how Piggly Wiggly managed to have these couple of far-flung outposts, though. In the city and a few suburbs, there are also a handful of Treasure Island stores, but these stores deal mainly with upscale gourmet and imported foods, and I wouldn't consider Treasure Island to be in the same ballpark as Dominick's or Jewel-Osco.
Question: Are Chicago's Jewel-Osco and Boston's Star Market owned by the same company? When living in Boston, I remember seeing the "President's Choice" store brand in the Stah Mahket stores there, which is the same store brand Jewel-Osco carries. Dominick's used to have their own store brand before they got bought out, but now they mostly sell the Safeway brand.
And has anybody ever been in a Meijer store? Talk about an utterly frightening place. Meijer is a Michigan-based chain that invented the concept of "mega-store" long before Wal-Mart and K-Mart tried their hand at it. There's a Meijer store out in DuPage county, and the place is about the size of an airline hanger. It's basically like a large grocery store and the largest of Target stores rolled into one -- a category killer to the nth degree. They're so huge, in fact, that some local communities have blocked construction of additional Meijer stores in the Chicago area. I guess they're afraid Meijer would put all their mom-and-pop Wal-Mart stores out of business. I'll give Meijer credit for one thing, though: Their stores are famous for being incredibly clean. The store in DuPage was utterly spotless, to the point that you could almost eat off the floor.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Question: Are Chicago's Jewel-Osco and Boston's Star Market owned by the same company?"
No, star market is owned by the same company that owns Shaw's another New England chain.
"When living in Boston, I remember seeing the "President's Choice" store brand in the Stah Mahket stores there"
President's Choice is a discount brad not a store brand. Star market used to have it's own store brand but it is being phased out soon the star market name will be as well.
President's Choice is a discount brad not a store brand.
Gotcha. The generally skanky appearance of both stores was also a factor in leading me to believe they were part of the same company. I stand corrected.
Star market used to have it's own store brand but it is being phased out soon the star market name will be as well.
What a shame... Star Market is such a perfect name to butcher with a fake Boston accent. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
President's Choice was originally the store brand for some Canadian chain. It was so well-liked (or so I've heard) that various American chains bought it and sold it as their high-end generic. (A&P, similarly, has America's Choice as its standard generic and Master Choice as its high-end generic.)
I don't think President's Choice was supposed to be offered in more than one store in an area, but when I first got to Champaign-Urbana (IL), it was available in both Chicago-based Jewel and St. Louis-based Schnucks. Shortly thereafter, both Jewels became plain Oscos and Schnucks dropped the line. I haven't seen it since.
Tops also used to carry PC but phased it out a few years ago. An Ahold-wide high-end generic, Sensational, appears to have taken its place.
Champaign has a Meijer. It's pretty scary, especially if you don't know where to find what you need. Once you think of it as two stores sharing a set of cash registers, it's not so bad -- go to the right if you want the supermarket, go to the left if you want the Target-like stuff. I've found that it has a decent selection of average goods but very little in the way of specialty items (I couldn't even find kasha there -- I was shown the buckwheat flour, I was shown the bulghur wheat, but the little brown and gold Wolff's boxes were nowhere to be found). Produce is usually good. Prices are low but not the lowest in town. Clean, absolutely.
Anybody been to an Aldi's or a Save-a-Lot? Interesting shopping experience.
There was an Aldi's in West Long Branch for a while... not sure if it is still there. I was in it once, just to see what it was all about... they only took cash and foodstamps, no debit, checks, or credit, and they charged you 25˘ to use a cart.
And it was FILTHY!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The quarter is returned when you put the cart back in the cart line. The idea is to keep carts out of the parking lot and to avoid the need for the store to hire someone to bring the carts back. It works -- just about nobody is willing to forfeit 25 cents by leaving the cart sitting out.
The Champaign Aldi started taking debit cards around 1999. I don't know about checks. No credit cards -- Aldi's prices really are low and I don't think they'd be able to stay in business with credit card fees.
Filthiness is variable -- which isn't a good sign.
My biggest gripe, other than the limited (generic-only, for the most part) selection, is the inevitably long lines. I guess it doesn't help that most shoppers there seem to fill up their carts to capacity while I'd get to the front with a dozen eggs, a carton of milk, and six half-gallons of orange juice.
Albertson's also owns the Acme chain in New Jersey and Pennsylvania... they carry Osco brand lightbulbs, and probably a few other items as well. Albertson's has owned them for years but it's only been within the past couple of years that they've added the phrase "an Albertson's company" to the advertising flyers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I noticed a Grand union in New hampshire turned into a P&C foods.
COUPONS DOUBLE COUPONS AS A POLICY.
On Long Island (Nassau and Sufolk counties) the major chains have a double coupon policy. The stores double those coupons of the Manufactors up to and sometimes including those worth a dollar.
Are there any other locations or areas with this policy?
avid
New Jersey - triple coupons on occasion. But there are limits - up to 50˘ is doubled by all of the major chains, but only some of the chains will rate a 55˘ coupon as $1 - A&P won't. I buy my staples at ShopRite, as well as some cheese, fruit, and meat; most of my produce and bread comes from A&P, though, as their quality is consistently good and they're more conveniently located (I can stop on my way home from work).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the blurb Pete. At least not all is lost. We lived in the Woodside Project Apartments the last year I lived in New York and we used to go to their discount store and get fusilli and margueritte shaped pasta for about ten cents less than you would pay for it at a grocery store. I know Breyers still is around, but I haven't seen any Sealtest when I come to New York. Good to know it is still around. I loved the eagle on Paramount macaroni products, but my folks went for LaRosa and Ronzoni and Paramount was a rare treat.
>>>Grand Union's still around. <<<
Nope, they folded about 2/3 months ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
And Stop & Shop [whatever the corporate name is...] picked up MOST of the pieces around here.....
Ronzoni was bouht out in the '80s by General Foods, I think. Some of the family stayed on to help managefor a while. I'm not sure if that is still the case. I think the same happened to Entenmann's Bakery. They were acquired and were use as the vehicle to go "national" with a "since 1898" on the logo.
As with the chain stores, the food industry is set up with parant companies.
Philip Morris owns Kraft, Miller Beer and addictive substances. They also control Jello, Minute Rice, Reynolds Wrap and who knows what! Their P.R. people push the Philip Morris name when they show donations of food and such to disaster victims. So tobacco aint so bad. Lipton and Nestles are big conglomerates as well. So to the Campbell product line.
avid
They also control Jello, Minute Rice, Reynolds Wrap and who knows what!
Not Reynolds wrap - that was a product of the Reynolds Metals Company, which was merged into Alcoa in May 2000.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have in my hand a box of Cut-Rite wax paper, which used to be a Scott Paper product once upon a time. Now it says manufactured for Consumer Products Division Reynolds Metals Company. We also have a roll of Aluminum foil made by the same division. Is Alcoa hiding behind the Reynold's name?
Not sure... Alcoa has owned Reynolds since May 2000. I think that Scott Paper was purchased by Reynolds some years ago, though I could be wrong. Alcoa is one of the "good guys" so I doubt they're trying to hide.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Alcoa has owned Reynolds since May 2000. I think that Scott Paper was purchased by Reynolds some years ago, though I could be wrong. Alcoa is one of the "good guys" so I doubt they're trying to hide.
I believe Kimberly-Clark purchased Scott Paper (after Chainsaw Al Dunlap had decimated Scott's ranks).
At least Alcoa, after purchasing Reynolds, hasn't gotten rid of Pat and Betty.
I just go by the food flyers the KRAFT family of foods puts out.
this recent flyer had , Jello,minute rice, Kraft dairy and cheese products and Reynlods Wrap. Pehaps I've assumed to much. I'll re check my coupons.
avid
I'm a Piggly Wiggly "Pig's Favorite Customer" or "PFC." That's the name of their "shoppers club card." I got it when I was down in South Carolina two years ago. The lady at the store wanted to give me a temporary paper card, but I was like no way, give me the real thing! And she did!
What does this have to do with trains?
Absolutely nothing. But if you read the beginning of this thread, there was some connection with the term "grand union." I hope this helps you.
And here's a link to a now defunct railroad in Chicago that had more Grand Unions than Massapequa ...
http://www.ameritech.net/users/chicagotunnel/tunnel1.html
And a lot of shots of them and this bizarre little railroad called the "Chicago Tunnel company" ... a railroad snuck under the streets of Chicago surreptitiously, owned and operated by Ma Bell ...
Why? Just WHY did I have to be abroad just when this porcine discussion came about?
"Moo and Oink" Chicago IL.
More meat market than supermarket, really.
I know about bizarre supermarket names myself. I work at a "Big Y World Class Market" in Connecticut. The "Y" refers to a fork in the road where the first store in Massachusetts was located in 1936. As for other supermarkets, I've seen a "Super Stop & Shop" in Worcester, MA that sells gas. You don't see that in New England too often. :>
Re: The presence of Grand Unions in Brooklyn: a trackmap I have shows that there was an almost(3/4) GU in Queens at the intersection of Fresh Pond Rd and the private right of way, where the Flushing-Ridgewood line emerged from under the Myrtle El and turned N. on FP Rd. This intersection was also the gateway to Fresh Pond Depot. The map shows nothing of a GU in Brooklyn.
Carl M.
Yea,the thacks were still covered up with blacktop in the 60's but i didn't know that was a 3/4 verson,right in my own backyard so to speak,that Fresh Pond Rd station had two candy stores one on each side of the station,i used to work in the one on the side under the Metropolitan Ave direction,we made the best malteds and eggcreams in the area.any models of grand unions in any scale around ?
There a few in Toronto, at King Street West and Bathurst Street, (504/511), Queen Street West and Spadina Avenue (501/510), King Street West and Spadina Avenue (504 & 508/510). There may also be one at King Street East and Church Street.
This is pure speculation now, so get out the salt.
I beleive there were some in Pacific Electric country.
With all the lines Pacific Electric had in its hay day, I would expect them to have had one or some.
Can the Orange Mueseum people be of any help.
HELP!
avid
PS If anyone has a metal detector, the Corners of Lackawanna Ave. and Wyoming in the City of Scranton had a 3/4 union. IIRC.
avid
I have two quesitons I hope you folks out there can shed some light on:
1) On R-38's, what are those arms that are just off the floor on the passageway between cars. They look like they could be pulled out to serve as a gate to keep one from falling off; but this would only work on the first car of a train and I have never seen this arm in the up position.
2) With the Redbirds, what is the difference between a World's Fair and a mainline (I think) R-36. I have seen references to both here and wonder how are mainline cars different from WF's.
Thanks
Bill/Piggo
>1) On R-38's, what are those arms that are just off the floor on the passageway between cars. They look like they could be pulled out to serve as a gate to keep one from falling off; but this would only work on the first car of a train and I have never seen this arm in the up position. <
I think you are talking about the hand brake. On equipment prior to the R-40 the handbrakes were on the outside of the operating cabs. As you can imagine this caused some problems when vandals started to set the brakes when the train was in a station. To combat that the TA installed indicator lights to show when a handbrake was activated.
Starting with the R-40 the handbrakes were moved to inside the cab.
> 2) With the Redbirds, what is the difference between a World's Fair and a mainline (I think) R-36. I have seen references to both here and wonder how are mainline cars different from WF's. <
I let someone else get into most of the technical details but the most obvious difference is the side windows. The Flushing cars were given large "picture windows" while the mainline cars had standard dropsash windows. The Flushing cars also have slots just above (and slightly to the left) of the operating cab window for the Indentra system antennas which told the system if the train was an express (without) or a local (with).
Also the World's Fair R-36's were delivered in a aqua / white with a black stripe livery. (see the Museum collection pics of 9306) for an idea of the livery.....(to S-T'ers, yes I know 9306 was an R-33, but the livery's the same).
I believe that the R-36 Mainline cars were originally delivered in a dark brown (one color) livery.
Thanks,
That covers it,
I was on a A train over the weekend, and i saw someone fooling around with that, the train then was delayed a while.
WF R36 painted blue & white. Large picture windows. Door windows are larger also. Light blue interior. Aqua doors.
ML R36, R29, R33 painted RED. Small windows. Smaller windows on the doors also. A slightly different shade of blue. Door where a light shade of purple. (Much more pleasent).
>Starting with the R-40 the handbrakes were moved to inside the cab.
The #1 ends of the B cars of the R-44 & 46 have hem in the same place as the older cars, as there is no cab. Of course, this area is locked to passrengers anyway.
When I was a kid, I always wondered what they were, and they reminded me of some sort of "gate". It wasn't until the beginning of school car, Feb. that I knew what they were (and I read about "handbrakes" in the rule book I got before class started, but wondered what that was)
Interesting you mentioned they reminded you of a gate, that is the first impression I got when i saw them. I take the "A" from 168 to 59 in the morning on my way to work, I'm at 168 around 6:20 - 6:45 AM and at that time they are adding "C"'s to service, there is usually two "C"'s on the downtown tracks waiting to roll. As I want to be in the first car for access to the 57th street exit from the 59 St/Columbus Circle, I wait in front of the lead car on the "C" trains. From there, I noticed (what I now have learned is) the hand brake. I though it might have been a small gate that was used as a safety device when the cars were orignialy put into service.
Until asking about it on this board I had no idea subway cars had a hand brake. Is it used for parking the cars in the yard and when laid up?????????
Bill/Piggo
Yes...
There is also an illuminated indicator in the Motorman's cab so that the train crew is certain the brake is not engaged while the train is is motion.
In service this afternoon.
-Stef
This happened on Monday afternoon. From what I've heard, as a J train was passing a Signal Maintainer, the SM started to walk along the catwalk with a bucket in his hand. He lost his balance and was hit by the J train.
He'll be alright, but he suffered a broken back as a result.
Moral of the story: Don't ever rush. Take your time, especially if you're working in a dangerous environment like the subway.
He was picking up his tools while the middle of the train was passing by and he slipped. And he was a helper, not a maintainer.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Well, the story that I'd heard was a little fuzzy, but you get the drift.
I was listing to it over my Radio while I was at CIY on Monday. First of all I could not belive the I was hearing both sides of the talk, I mean the TSS and T/O at the site and command center. The TSS just said the he had back and hand pain. I guess it was wrose then they though.
Robert
I hadn't heard anything about this particular incident. What time did it happen? I can think of no other call on the radio that would be more dreaded than a fellow employee down. Derailments, collisions, etc. you can deal with. An employee struck by a train is a whole other beast. The sad part is it doesn't just happen to rookies. A few years back there was a TSS working in a GO area between 135th St and 145th St. on the midnights. He tried to clear up to allow an A train to pass but unknown to him, he was in a no clearance area (someone had stolen the sign). His safety vest or clothing was snagged by the passing train and he was pulled under. May he be the last - at least while I'm still around.
It happened yesterday roughly between 12:30 pm and 1 pm.
BTW, I know the TSS incident on the A line that you are talking about. You never want to hear about something like this happening.
Sad part is that no one on the A line showed remorse or sorrow for the fallen TSS. He was a very hated man. Too bad really.
I suppose the moral of the story is that while accidents can be avoided most of the time, they can't be avoided all of the time. Working in subway tunnels isn't like working behind a desk, there's an inherent element of danger.
That's true. Complacency can be fatal.
At the same time, we should all appreciate what these people do for us riders.
I hope this guy makes as full a recovery as possible.
Your remark about a "no clearance" area reminded me of something I've been wondering about.
While I've never made a systematic study of the issue, there seem to be a large number of niches in station walls with No Clearance signs posted (within the niche). These niches are obviously shallower than other niches I have seen. Why were these niches built that way? Have subway workers put on weight since they were built? Were the tracks moved? Is there some pattern as to where and when these were built?
I think it's just simply that as the TA becomes more sensative to safety, the specifications for what's safe and what's not likely has changed. In short, they've likely just increased the safety margin for clearances in niches.
(I think it's just simply that as the TA becomes more sensative to safety, the specifications for what's safe and what's not likely has changed. In short, they've likely just increased the safety margin for
clearances in niches.)
In many ways, the TA has gone safety crazy, though given what I heard about the average number of workers killed per year in the old days (about 3) that's just as well. I took track safety, and had to back into a niche on the 14th Street line. With those 600 volt tongues going by, I couldn't push up against the wall hard enough.
The crazy part? We have monthly safety meetings, which are taken very seriously by top management. I work in an office. You can only be told to close the file cabinets so no one trips so many times.
Nonetheless, there is clearly a big emphasis on safety in field, along with all the GTs, etc.
NEVER walk past a moving train...clear up 'til it passes...
If you rode along the Queens Blvd corridor on Tuesday morning (and midday), then you know exactly what I mean.
Hmmmm, where do I start.......
1) 7:20 am--A southbound F train goes BIE (brakes in emergency) on the switches at 75th Avenue screwing everything behind it (including my train). The stop arm on the home signal came up underneath the train, tripping it.
2) 7:55 am--A southbound E train goes BIE entering Lexington Avenue. Stays put for over 20 minutes. Guess who was right behind it? (Answer: me). Strangely, the exact same thing happened here as at 75th Avenue, the home signal came up underneath the train. To make matters worse, the call-on lever wouldn't operate.
You know that your day is starting off on the wrong foot when your first trip of the day gets stuck behind two BIE's. I could only imagine how my passengers were feeling. Some C trains as a result were rerouted to Parsons/Archer. So if you thought that the Mexican food that you had before bedtime last night was making you hallucinate, rest assured that you really did see R38's on the QB corridor.
3) 11:15 am--A southbound C train gets accidentally tripped by the Tower Operator at Canal Street on the local track. Further north at 50th Street, the TW/O at 42/8 tells the southbound E that he's being sent over the express track. The T/O takes the lineup. Low and behold, right in front of him are a portable trip, and a set of red banker lights. Now, not only is the C service messed up, now ALL the 8th Avenue trains are messed up because he passed the home signal blocking the express track from receiving a line-up. Turns out that someone in the Track Dept. took the switch out of service without telling the Tower OR Control Center. Oops!
Needless to say, a day to forget!
On my return trip to 207h, I heard on the radio the C being directed to go to Queens, and then saw it (R-38's) at 42nd. I looked ahead, and it did take the diversion to 50th St. lower level. We left 207th at 11:15 (solid R-32 A. Passed another at Bway-Nassau), and there was some delay causing us to take the express from 125-59 at about 15mph average, the whole way. I was wondering what on earth was going on out there.
Oy! My condolences to you and your passengers, and my thanks that I wasn't on the QB express this morning.
Dan
Saw two BIE's myself today, fortunately they were in the opposite direction from which I was traveling.
Perhaps the signals got overexcited from today's cool fresh air?
Where's Kaz Dolowicz when you need him ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Or Frank Corrall? He'd say, "Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy."
Z, I was on the southbound QB corridor that day around 9am & things were still screwed up. Thank God I had my trusty morning paper to keep me occupied. It took about 20 minutes to go from QP to Lex. Very slow, and many stops within the tunnel. Both C/R and T/O were making announcements. The speakers in my car were very faint, but they announced the reason for the delays, BIEs, and seemed to be going through a long harrang in which they gave out car numbers. Why, I don't know.
The question is, would 'V' service have added to or alleviated some of the chaos?
It would've alleviated. The F + E runs 2 minuite headways through 53rd. With the F running through 63rd instead and having the V cover, it would've been a bigger headway. It doesn't run as often.
I was riding the F train today to check out the Culver Express and Bergen St. lower level, and I noticed that the subway map in R-46 5249 was updated to show the July 22nd service changes.
Dan
Well I'd bet $20 to a donut that it wasn't in car 5249. That's an R44 for you'ze country folk out there.
"Well I'd bet $20 to a donut that it wasn't in car 5249. That's an R44 for you'ze country folk out there."
Hey! Watch it! Us bumpkins KNOW what "fresh country scent" means and we laugh our overalls off when we see it being advertised to city slickers on their local teevee in aerosol cans. And when enough of us get together to form a coven, we point those big backyard satellite dishes at the city, all change channels at the same time and cause trip arms to come up in Queens. Don't mess with us. :)
Okay, then it was probably 5924. Not sure. I wrote the car number on the palm of my hand at the beginning of 4 hours of railfanning and there was very little left when I was done. There is nothing left now.
Dan
Today? The F isn't supposed to be running through Bergen lower this week. Is it? Which direction?
I am posting the time I leave the Euclid Ave on the "C" on my last trip so that if anyone want to meet up after the Busfest on Wendsday you know when I leave. I make the 5:34pm out of Euclid Ave. I get to 145 at 6:38pm and return trip at 6:54pm. If anyone is there I will try to get there about 10min before I leave. I just figure it would be nice to meet more of you guy while you did some rail fanning. I do keep my door open with a c clamp so you can look into the cab. I as leave Eculid at 11:04am and 2:24pm on my first two trip.
Hope to see you there.
Robert
Hey, Bobby, looks like you're working my regular Saturday job for the 4th, Job C 205, so I know when you're leaving Euclid and 168th.
I'll see if I can meet up with you on one of the trips. That is if I haven't stuffed myself silly with hot dogs and hamburgers from my barbeque. :-)
Thats Right C205. Hope to see you there.
Robert
I wish I can go but I got my own work to do on the 2 line. It is a late PM job out of FLA.
I'm sorry I couldn't make it. But I think it's very nice of you to actually invite people to railfan on your runs. Somehow, instinctively, I'd think most TOs wouldn't like railfans. Maybe I was wrong on that count?
I don't mind people railfaning with me. I used to ride train myself before I got married and had my baby girl. I would like to do more but I can't becouse I watch her on my days off. I like being a T/O, it's was something that I wanted to do since I was a kid. So why not let other ride with me on something that I like doing. I would not let anyone come ride with me when I was driving the bus for the TA. I will post sometime down the road more of the line that I will work. I know two day ahead what I will be working. If I am on a line with all railfan windows that is when I will post it.
Hope to see someone on my train.
Robert
Very nice, Robert. My lousy job's sending me away for most of the summer and fall, so I won't have the chance. But I'll keep posting here, and hopefully, soon enough, I'll be on your train!!
Same here! Thats the crazy thing about being RX (Road Extra). I also don't mind if railfans ride with me but I know being a C/R I have a disadvantage and that is no railfan really wants to ride with the Conductor since we are all the way in the 6th car.
Well tomorrow I will be on the No.6 Line and Saturday I don't have a clue.
Well being RX may be coming to an end for me I talked to the pick man and he said there will be a job for me. That a good thing about being a C/R you only stay RX less then 1 YR.
Bobby, See you on the 5:34, somewhere mid-trip!
Trev
I was in London this weekend. I left Friday afternoon and got there Saturday Morning where I spent about two and a half days there. I was planning on going to Stonehenge, but we found out we didn't have enough money to do so, so that meant a lot of time for railfanning. Here are a few pictures I took. All questions are at the end of the post.
The London Underground is great. I saw much more of the system than I originally planned, and I'm glad I did. Here's what lines I went on (I didn't do each segment all at the same time for the most part):
Circle- all of it
District- Bow Road to Earl's Court
Jubilee- Willesden Green to North Greenwich
Northern- London Bridge to Euston
Piccadilly- Earl's Court to Holborn
Central- Notting Hill Gate to Holborn
Bakerloo- Baker St to Waterloo
Victoria- Euston to Victoria
Metropolitan - Finchley Rd to Baker St.
Docklands- Bank to Canary Wharf and Bow Road
and some double decker buses
You can tell I only had a zone 1 and 2 pass, judging where I ended my journey on some of the lines. Here are my observations:
Transport Museum- This place answered nearly all of my questions about the Underground that I was going to ask here. Very good place to learn about the history and operation of the system.
Passageways- The Underground LOVES those long-ass passageways between the tube lines, don't they? I wouldn't be surprised if certain stations had miles of them. Bank/Monument on the Northern/Central/Circle/District had the longest that I went to. It must have taken 15 minutes to get from the Central line entrance to the Circle line.
The word "subway" does not mean what it means in the US, I found out the hard way when I went I went down one to find out that it means an underground crosswalk. It only happened once. I figured out that where it says "UndergrounD Public Subway" that it actually means the Underground is there, but an underground crosswalk for general use is there as well.
Mind the Gap The gaps really weren't as big as I thought. They should say "Mind the Step." No train floor was level with the platform anywhere.
Spiral staircases/elevators/escalators The tube stations are very deep. At Covent Garden, the stairs had 193 steps, 15 stories, according to the announcement, and I went down, there's no way I'd walk up that many steps. The escalators were fast as hell, maybe twice the speed of US ones. The Transport Museum has a history of the escalators and elevators. The first escalators had an angled railing to get people to walk off the escalator on the side, because the groove and tooth setup wasn't invented yet. The setup they have with the elevators is to maximize passenger flow, they have two doors, people exit on one side and enter on the other side. The one way passageways help make this setup successful.
Tube lines- The platform height of the tube line is very low, I'd say no more than 2 feet high! Because of this, all of the tube train floors were higher than the platforms. The trains are extremely tiny. I'm almost as tall as the trains. The newest tube stock seems to be on the Jubilee and Northern lines. I could really tell how tight the tunnel clearances are by watching the train enter the station. The roof has the tightest clearance. The trains here appear to be pretty fast. It might be because of the tiny dimensions, but when watching a train depart, it's moving at a fast pace. I was surprised to see how short the stations and trains are, on both tube and subsurface, makes it even more amazing how they carry the billion or so people a year.
Sub Surface lines- The platform height here was also lower than the floor height, but still higher than the tube lines. The tunnels, like the tubes, have no lights in them, so it's pitch black in the tunnels, giving a cool spooky appearance. The tunnels here are for the most part made of brick and there are places where the line is open trench.
Jubilee/Metropolitan- You can really tell where the new segment begins because right after Green Park, the ride is way smoother, and also right after Green Park, you can see the old tunnel to Charing Cross. The announcements on the Jubilee sound like Mary Poppins or Angela Lanisbury recorded them. The segment between Finchley Rd and Willesden Green was the only above ground segment I rode on. Here, the Jubilee runs along the Metropolitan line, which essentially runs express. Here is where one of my questions was answered if there were any connections between the Sub-surface and Tube lines (there is). After going to the Transport Museum and looking at the historical maps did I understand why the platforms were higher than the Jubilee train- because this used to be served by the Metropolitan line before the Jubilee existed, and Subsurface stock is higher than tube stock. The Metropolitan trains flew by the stations, those are some fast trains. It was cool to see the tube train pulling in at Willesden Green and a Metropolitan train flying past it. This is a good place to compare the sizes of the different stock. Some of the Metropolitan lines ended at Baker St, which makes perfect sense, because it looks like there are four different Metropolitan line, and trying to have them all merge with Hammersmith and City and Circle line would not work.
Central- Unfortunately, the Central line was closed between Holborn and Liverpool St. because of "Planned engineering work," so I didn't get to ride as much of it as I liked. I think this is the oldest tube line, yet it looks in good condition.
District/Circle- I spent most of my time on the sub-surface lines here. The original Underground segment was along here. I first got on the Underground at Victoria to go to my hotel near Bayswater. I went to Earl's Court to check out the only station where all the District lines meet. Later on, after riding the Docklands to Bow Road, I got on another District line train. I wanted to get on a Hammersmith train, but never saw one, not ever at Aldgate East, where they were supposed to terminate off peak. There is also a cross platform transfer for the Central at Mile End.
When I got off the Metropolitan at Baker St, I was going to transfer to Bakerloo, but I was exploring the station at first, not remembering at that moment the significance of that station, when I went to the Circle/Hammersmith platform. I suddenly got the picture of that old Baker St drawing from the 1800s in my head, and then I saw a poster that put a big smile on my face that had the drawing I had pictured and the words "The World's First Underground Station, 1863."
Docklands- The light rail line is cool, I like how it's totally automated.
Questions
What is the oldest stock in the system? It appears to be the white cars on the District line, but I think they are only from 1980.
Why does the Metropolitan line have those seats with the high backs, instead of the normal bench seating? They're comfortable, but they take up standing room.
The Museum said they were automating the system. Which lines are automated? They said the new Jubilee segment is automated, what about the rest of that line?
Is there a connection between the Victoria and Northern line near Euston? I think a saw a tunnel veer off, but I'm not sure.
How many total lines are there in the system? There's the 12 mainlines, but I counted around 22 when you count the branches lines.
How long has the platforms at South Kensington and Willesden Green been abandoned? When was the last time the Metropolitan used Willesden Green?
When tube lines diverge do they use flying crossovers? Is this the first application of this?
Where are the system hubs at? Earl's Court is an obvious one, but I can't tell about the others.
Are they gradually lengthening the subsurface platforms? Most stations I saw could handle another car, and at one station, I could tell that the platform was lengthened.
When the Jubilee was extended at Westminster, did they completely renovate the Circle line station, or is that a new station? It looks completely new, unlike the rest of the Circle line.
When the Jubilee was extended at Westminster, did they completely renovate the Circle line station, or is that a new station? It looks completely new, unlike the rest of the Circle line.
That was an existing station on the District / Circle line which (I believe) remained open during reconstruction. I found a very cool book in the gift shop of the Transport Museum about the whole history of the Jubilee Line station. I didn't have enough cash to pick it up at the time, but I plan to order it online as soon as funds become available.
Isn't that station at Westiminster incredible? Making a transfer at that station for the first was a totally unexpected treat for me, and during my week there I found myself going out of my way just to use that station! The inside feels like the interior of some alien spaceship from Star Trek. Ditto for most of the other stations on the Jubilee Line extension, especially Canary Wharf and North Greenwich. Did you get a chance to wander around at bit at any of those stations? They make even MARTA and Washington Metro look like fossils.
I also found that most of the gaps at the "mind the gap" stations were smaller than expected. Exceptions are at stations with sharply-curving platforms, particularly at Bank (I forget which line). The gap there is big enough for a small person to stand in without touching either the platform edge nor the train. There may be other similar gaps throughout the system as well, but that's the biggest I saw.
You're totally right about the speed of the escalators there, and also the generally modern feel of the system. I got incredibly spoiled during my week there, and it was a letdown to come back to what seems like a third-world transit system in comparison.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Bank Central Line and Waterloo Bakerloo Line for the really large gaps.
and Embankment Northbound on the Northern
Is that because of the exit to the Charing Cross Loop? Does this still exist?
The new Jubilee stations I got to wander around are: Westmester, Bermondesy, North Greenwich and Canry Wharf. The stations are marvelous, and Westmester does look like soething out of Star Trek. You mentioned why Canry Wharf was so big after your trip, now I see what you're talking about. That station is huge, but with all the construction going on around there, it will probably be pretty busy eventually. Anyone know why North Greenwich has three tracks? I saw a train terminate there with no passengers.
Like I've said before, no US subway will built any station as beautiful as anything in Europe, so our subways will always look like fossils compared to Europe's.
Something else that I liked about the cars there was how fast the doors would close, but they softly touch each other right when the doors met. That would keep people from holding the doors, yet won't actually hurt anyone.
I think that some trains were intended to turn round at North Greenwich, particularly for the Millenium Dome crowds that never came. Also, there remains the possibility that the Jubilee Line will extend southeast to Woolwich.
Rob
I can answer your questions but it will take a time!
The oldest stock that actually exists is 1938 Tube Stock - very reliable but not one-man operated. It was last used on the Northern Line in the 80s when it was re-introduced (In its original paint style) to cope with the upturn in traffic. The last examples are now museum pieces.
The oldest current stock is the "A" stock on the Met - those high seat backs on the express north of Baker St - the high seat backs are just extra comfort for what used to be a "Mainline" service to the outer suburbs - in the 1920s they even had Pullman cars!! The "A"s were introduced in the early 1960s.
The Victoria Line is really the only fully automated line and has been since it was opened in the 60s - it is unpopular with crews and management. The Operator only works the doors and the train drives itself, he has to take over in an emergency, but experience shows that because they do nothing for most of the time, when they do need to react and take over the controls, the time lapse is too long for safe operating. I never worked on this line - the Operators really hate it.
The Central is in theory Auto in the tunnel sections - but I think the drivers have the option. Jubilee beyond Green Park is equipped - but you will need to ask a current Operator about this. The Northern was to have "rolling block signalling" a sort of virtual "safe braking distance" between trains, but i think it failed at the design stage.
There are 3 underground connections between Tube Lines - one at Euston between the Victoria and Northern, one at King Cross between the Northern and Piccadilly and one at Baker St between the Bakerloo and Jubilee (the Jubilee is an extension of the old Bakerloo Stanmore Branch) - all other connections between lines are in the open - District and Piccadilly between Barons Court and Hammersmith - Met and Jubilee at Finchley Rd, Neasden, Wembley Pk, etc, Met and Piccadilly at Rayners Lane and the Met and District share the Circle and share tracks to Barking.
These allowed stock moves between Depots and to the defunct Works at Acton where all stock was overhauled.
Pass on how many Lines there are - depends how you count them!
The traditional Operating Divisions and their Control Rooms are: District and Picc out of Earls Court, Victoria and Northern out of Euston, Central and Met, Bakerloo and Jubilee out of Baker St.
Docklands is a seperate entity. H&C is the original Underground (1863) and was a joint Met and Great Western Railway Operation, then Met and later absorbed into London Transport (in 1933).
High St Kensington - Gloucester Rd - South Kensington was a 4 track parallel operation from the 1860s due to running rights disputes between the Met and the District who were charged by Act of Parlimant to build and Operate the "Inner Circle". This section was reduced to 2 and 3 line working in the late 60s, with the District Main Line diverging west of Gloucester Rd.
Everything North of Baker St was originally the Met Main Line. The Bakerloo extended up to Stanmore under the "New Works" of LT in the 30s. It is now the Jubilee. Willesden Green, Neasden, etc became "local" stations at that time, but the Met may call there on some rare early morning staff and first trains.
The first application of the "flying crossover" occurs on the District where the Westbound Local from High St Kensington dives under the Westbound Main from Gloucester Rd. This dates from the early 1870s (Steam operated).
Virtually all underground Tube Junctions use flyunders and crossovers.
The most famous is Camden Town where 2 suburban and 2 city branches meet. All trains can be routed to any destination by underground flying junctions without conflicts - built in the early 1920s and quite an engineering feat.
As above, the Divisional Hubs are Earls Court, Euston and Baker St where the Control Rooms and Divisional Offices are located.
Train lengths have varied over the years: the Central was 6, extended to 8 in 1947, Victoria is 8, other tubes are 7 car, but modern longer cars mean they are now 6, as is the District.
It is the car length that dictates the number of cars: 6xD cars = 7 old R or Q cars, etc.
Platforms on the District were capable of 8 (old) car operation, tho many had "catwalks" out into the tunnels to allow this. Up until the abolition of "uncoupling duties" in 1964, the District had a 2 car Unit added to the standard 6 car Train for Rush Hour Operation.
They also ran, at times, 7 cars to circumvent this need.
Up until WW2, the District operated jointly to Southend with the London Tilbury and Southend Railway (later LMS) and ran 12 car trains from Upminster to Whitechapel, uncoupling them to run a 6 car express and 6 car local through town. All District Platforms East of Whitechapel are therefore 12 car.
The District/Circle Station at Westinster is in the same place as the original, just completely rebuild for the Jubilee Line extension.
Think that answers all your questions!!
Thanks!! I might have more quetions once I can think of them.
Where are there extra platforms at South Kensington?
The current South Ken station is an island platform. If you look north, you can see one spare platform easily (when I was there earlier this year, it had signs and tubs with flowers in them on it).
If you look south, then there is a lot of space with nothing. This is where extra tracks/platforms used to be until the last renovations, when they replaced the lifts to the Piccadilly line with escalators (you can see the concrete building that houses them).
When I first started going to South Ken in the late 1960’s (to go to the Science Museum), there was only lift service, and if you wanted to transfer between the Piccadilly and Circle/District lines, you had to come up the lift, then go downstairs.
John
BTW: there is still the long underground passage to the museums that goes from the station under Cromwell Road to Exhibition Road!
The current South Ken station is an island platform. If you look north, you can see one spare platform easily (when I was there earlier this year, it had signs and tubs with flowers in them on it).
Interesting. Unfortunately I have no plans to get to London any time soon, and if I look north from here I see my bedroom wall.
Remind me, where is the Piccadilly line placed in relation to the Circle/District?
BTW: there is still the long underground passage to the museums that goes from the station under Cromwell Road to Exhibition Road!
I remember it well! I stayed roughly midway between South Kensington and Knightsbridge, and with the greater variety of lines at SK, that's where I ended up most of the time. (I suppose the old Brompton Road station would have come in handy, but I was about 50 years late.)
The Piccadilly line is under the Circle/District and runs roughly parallel. (Next stop west on both lines is Gloucester Road; next stop east on the Piccadilly is Knightsbridge, next stop east on the Circle/District is Sloane Square, so you have the stops at the top/bottom of Sloane Street).
If you go down to the Piccadilly line at South Ken, you can find the remains of the lift shafts: they are still used for ventilation.
John
The Piccadilly started out as a tube line from Kings Cross to Waterloo and went bankrupt during construction under Holborn Kingsway.
It was bought by W Tyson Yerkes of Lake St El fame, who moved to London in the early 1900s to escape his dodgy financial dealings in Chicago.
He also acquired the bankrupt Lords - Westminster tube and the feldgling Northern (then the Hampstead Tube)as well as the steam operated District Railway. The group was known as London Electric Railways and its trade mark was the UndergrounD.
The District was about to start boring surface gauge tubes under the Earl's Court area between Hammersmith and Sth Kensington for an express service, and Yerkes had these built as Tube gauge and run on from South Kensington to Holborn via Picaddilly Circus, before making a 90degree connection to the tubes under Holborn. This became the Picaddily.
The Lords - Westminster tube was rebuilt and connected Paddington Mainline and Waterloo and became the Bakerloo.
The Hampstead gradually extended North to Golders green where Tysons buddies built speculative housing, and eventualy merged with the City and South London Subway to form the double branched Northern Line.
It's probably better to read my first post, "Trip to London" before reading my opinions.
For a system that is 40 years older than the NYC subway, the Underground makes NYCT look like a fossil. The Underground is way more modern than NYCT, they installed and/or installing automatic trains, and the system overall look much newer than NYC.
My favorite car type was the Central line trains. They look similar to the Jubilee stock, but I like a larger picture windows and the light that go down the middle of the interior, instead of two off center. My favorite segment was the above ground part of the Jubilee line, it just looks so cool to watch the two different stocks riding together at a fast pace. While I enjoyed all the lines a lot, I think I liked the tube lines better. But I still the like Subsurface with the brick tunnels, open cuts and old looking stations.
I love the fast escalators they have, we need those kind of escalators in the US. And, take note, Americans, people there STAND ON THE RIGHT and pass on left. They don't block the entire width of the escalator, a favorite pastime of Atlantans.
I've gotta give props on how the tubes lines were built. I learned all about it at the Museum. They had some hard work to do. Also, it's quite an accomplishment making all the tube lines standard, even though they were all built by separate companies. It could have easily been like the IRT and BMT/IND situation, or worse.
For anyone wanting to go to London, I would suggest that you ride around the system first to get a feel for it, then go to the museum so you can understand what they are talking about, then go and ride around the system some more, seeing the things you learned about. That's what I did, and I think I enjoyed it more.
My favorite cars were on the Jubilee Line. Like you said, the announcements that sound like they were made by Mary Poppins, and the whirring of the A/C motors made those cars my favoprite to ride on by far. My favorite ride was on the Piccadilly Line from Heathrow Airport to Hammersmith, especially the very bouncy express run between Acton Town and Hammersmith. Wheeee!
As far as the Stand On The Right thing, it makes perfect sense and it makes everything flow easier. English people have a love affair with queueing (though it's weaned a bit in recent years). Don't ever expect it to take hold here.
The major problem with the Tube is their signalling system. It's really shoddy and it's got a major problem. When a signal fails and goes to red, the only option is to hit the stop arm repeatedly. Their signals don't hook down or key.
Two things:
1) Three days wasn't enough, eh?
2) Was it really as hot in the Tubes as I've been hearing? (they've been saying station temps of 100 degrees).
Yup, 3 days wasn't enough to see anything, especially since I spent the majority of Sunday riding the Underground. I think I did a lot of things on Saturday however.
The tubes weren't really that hot, in fact it was quite windy in there. I assume this is because of the tight tunnel clearances and the trains have to push all that air out somehwere. The temperature felt good in the whole city, except on Monday, it was hot as hell.
Did you get to Stonehenge ?
Simon
Swindon UK
No, it was too expensive for us to go there.
I saw an R142 on the 2 line an hour ago. I only saw the last cars, #6341-6345. What is the other trainset coupled to it?
CWalNYC
R142_#6421-6430
Did you read my previous post?
6336-40 and 6341-45 are together.
-Stef
ok so i am waiting at cortlandt st after work at about 2:05 so i can take an n train downtown to 59th st and then catch a 95th bound r like i do every other weekday. i just miss the r so i know the n is coming soon. the n shows up and just as it is almost fully in the station they make an announcement that the n train is skipping cortlandt and everyone should step back from the platform. ugh. then about 3 minutes later an r comes, i wait patiently for the n and about 2 minutes later that arrives. i get on and no problems until whitehall when it pulls into the center track. the train stops while in the tunnel and we wait there for what seems to be forever but was probably 5-10 minutes. i was exhausted from work and i kept nodding off and waking up thinking it was almost 59th and we hadn't moved at all. we stop again right after leaving de kalb for another 10 minutes or so. finally we get to 59th and the r is waiting with the doors open, perfect transfer i guess everything is alright. WRONG. as soon as the doors of the n open, the conductor on the r closes his. people run out of the train screaming and yelling at the conductor, cursing, pouting the whole 9. they then turn and yell at the n conductor who has no idea whats going on/doesn't really care whats going on. tempers are flared and the n leaves. wait a few minutes and the n pulls in the station on the local tracks so everyone calms down thinking its the r but it was an n. people take out all their anger on the unfortunate conductor. some lady is screaming and cursing at him and yelling at people in the train and saying racist things to people at the station. she then lights a cigarette in the station because shes fed up(and because shes a stupid addict). then a B train pulls into the station on the express track. then a few minutes later a B train pulls in on the local while an R train pulls in on the express. i suck at telling stories i know. moral of the story, that trip usually takes me 40 minutes tops, it took an hour and 5 minutes or so today. also what the hell was going on that there would be B trains at 59th street on a weekday?
later,
tim
You got school cars using the express tracks at Pacific, so there's a whole lotta switching going on. The 4th ave ride on the N for me seemed slower today too. Because of a school car on the S/B express at Pacific our southbound N was express on local, and there were some people in stations we went through giving the finger. If this mess is from the school cars maybe this should've only been done at night and on weekends. Let me guess, the TA didn't have enough time because the construction of the south side ran behind schedule.
thanks for the info. ugh i hate when they run the n express on the local tracks. then they blow the horn which scares/angers people and its always slower and i miss my r connection at 95th. oh well little things to whine about.
"If this mess is from the school cars..."
From my experience (current) with school cars, the school cars do not delay the road - the road delays the school cars! : - )
Before starting my road posting, we did "road operations" for two weeks between 8 PM and 4 AM (hours I truly enjoyed).
Wanted to report new additions to the redbird scrapline. Was up at 207 Yd. today. On 1 tk. (old loop) are 8 redbirds, stripped and ready to go. Maybe to the Concourse. There are no couplers or regular under carbody linkbars in the consist of cars. They are all linked together by these special yellow linkbars that lie on the carbody passenger floor. They appear to be "L" shaped. One leg of the L is inserted through that opening in the floor right above the truck where the centercasting is supposed to be. The opening is normally covered by a small steel plate that is screwed to the floor. The other leg of the L is extended through the storm door opening and linked with the next car. The car numbers are: 7902-03, 7870-71, 7814-15 and 7789-88. Only two of these cars (7814-15) have been reported already. From my earlier posts I was trying to find out what happened to 9486-87. They are in the back of the shop on 6 North, stripped and have some colorful graffiti on them. I am still trying to get a date on when I had seen them stripped in the shop. It was at least 3 months ago. I really believe that these two are the first to be scrapped in the replacement program. In the shop I also wanted to report the newest members of the list. 7750-51, 7752-53, 7754-55 and 8610-11. They are on 12 and 13 tks. The first two pairs are just about done and was told that the other four are to follow with the same fate.
Thanks for the info. It is all very interesting to me.
GRAFFITI ON REDBIRDS? WHere please explain the location within the yard, how much graffit?
You would think 9486-87 would go to the #7 line.
Is there anywhere on the web where a "Deadbird" list is and a list of new cars in service is??
And where are they going after stripping and decoupling, etc.
Apologies if this question was asked already.
flx7595
Our web host has begun a list. Visit "What's New" on this site.
7870-71? That’s one of the units which, on the front end of the former car (7870), has the pre-’78 color scheme for routes (i.e. the grey for the #5)! Anyone make sure that’s out of the car before it’s scrapped? It’d be a shame to see the signs in the cars go to waste. . . .
All the signs in all the cars are gone. Some duplex air guages and some master controller handles are still there.
Thanks for that update. Now, were all the signs kept somewhere, or were they all junked? That would be a tragedy if they were.
The following are now retired into storage at CCY. The 7875 still has the R22 storm door dropdown sash window, leaving only two cars left with them in service, possibly 7773 and one other. 8776/7 were pictured in the Utica Avenue portal crash around 1981. My fav out of this batch was 9520/1. It was my last Pelham R36 before transfering to the BMT which was capable of 55 MPH. I seemed to recall most WH R36s ran swift, especially ones from Pelham, as opposed to Corona.
7874/5
7784/5
7764/5
7760/1
7802/3
7854/5
8776/7
7918/9
7756/7
7828/9
9482/3
7952/3
9484/5
7894/5
9520/3
9480/1
9478/9
Car 7773 was still in service as of 7/2. I rode in it. I didn't realize until I got off that both end doors had the r22 windows.
Again, up at 207 Yd. today. R110B #3007-8-9 that have been cannibalized for some time took a trip within the yard. It looped twice and then went back into the barn. It had a blueprint diagram taped to its outer carbody. Had an interesting end sign. An orange circled A. Never seen that before. Went into the barn later and some guys were working on the cars and asked if they were planning on returning them to service. They replied, "yes." Probably a good bet that we won't see them soon though.
I was there too and they were pulling it around with a R-38. The motors must not be working.
I was there too after laying up an AM road train. I saw the blueprint taped to the side, but not the front. The orange A was basically the proposed Q to 207th renamed to keep the A as the Wash Hts express. (The original plan had it as local to 168). This too was shot down, since it would take the A off 8th Av. and send it out to the Brighton. (Wonder what they would have done with it now with the Bridge changes). Such routings are still programmed into the R-44/46 signs.
It seems every time I go to 207th yard, I see some of the 110B units moving around, and others still in the barn. It seems they don't know what to do with them.
Also in the shop, some redbirds in the 7750's are being stripped.
I also saw the crane lift one end of two cars off the trucks, and the workers placed the yellow props under the carbody.
Where were you?????????????????????????????????? HA HA
They were trying to pick up 3001-2-3 but they had a hi-lo condition.
They must need MORE SUGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HA HA
Please be advised that an R-62A car # 2155 from the # 3 line is now at corona yard all by itself. The north end sign is signed up "Not In Service while the south end sign says "3" the side signs read 3 148st Lenox Terminal./ New Lots Ave. I cant believe this. Hang tough REDBIRDS!!!!!!!!!!
YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, PROGRESSION! BRING ON DA 62s!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
NOOOOOOOO !!!! HELL F---!! NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!...........
THIS IS NOT PROGRESSION, NO MATTER WHO THINKS THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKIN' BOUT'
( besides its only ONE r-62 ) ..........LOL !!........ The redbirds should make thier last stand on the flushing # 7 line !!
& trevor with no railfan window to enjoy the # 7 line with why all of the excitement of having the # 7 line ruined ??
& again with no railfan window to enjoy the # 7 line with as well ???? ......no reason to visit nyc anymore, my birthplace...
reguards,
S.W.A.
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I hate to say this Salaam, but all those R-62As coming off the #6, they gotta show up somewhere.
Bill "Newkirk"
The good news, Salaam, is that not all R-62As have transverse cabs. The even better news is that I may be able for you to videotape from a redbird on the DJL Line.
Salaam, old buddy old pal ... you're missing a GOLDEN opportunity here ... betcha Train Dud and the TA would LOVE it if you could get some funding together out there to open up a retirement home for wayward redbirds ... we could stack 'em like cordwood!
And if the funding was REALLY there, we could solve everybody's problems once the cell phone wires go in to place webcams on a couple of trains under the windshield wiper (T/O side) and provide a RICH webcam railfan experience for anyone with a TV set ... now THAT would be neat ... given all the desire for a railfan view and the cameras themselves getting dirt cheap, the only real cost would be wiping the lenses during general maintenance and paying for the bandwidth ...
Here we go!
See we are two different rail fans, I railfan for the ride, the speed and the sounds, the railfan window is just a add plus. 95% of the time, if a railfan window is open, I'd still op to sit down!
If railfanning is all about standing at some window, then I wouldn't call it railfanning, I'd call it "WINDOWFANNING." And no that is not some comical joke. I'm being dead ass serious.
And REMEMBER THIS.....IT ONLY TAKES JUST 1 TO START THE BALL ROLLING. KISS THE DEADBIRDS GOODBYE SON SON!
KAWASAKI POWER!!!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
If railfanning is all about standing at some window, then I wouldn't call it railfanning, I'd call it "WINDOWFANNING."
It's not just standing at the window; it's looking out at track, third rail, signals, switches, trains coming the other way, et al.
Just sitting in a seat listening to the sounds and feeling the vibes through your arse is just as valid a railfanning experience. Just because you don't share the perspective of others doesn't mean that theirs is invalid.
Windowfanner
I enjoy looking out the front, also. But on transverse cabs you sit and look out the side windows ,like the regular passengers do, and enjoys the sounds, switches and everything else. Don't forget the spectacular views of the cities you get when on the elevated sections.
Chuck Greene
Thank You Chuck!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
NOT UNTIL I AM FINISHED VIDEOTAPING THEM FIRST !!!!!!!
as for your japanese built cars i guess a lot of americans are unemployed and recieving unemploymnent & welfare !!
so nuch for rolling some ball somewhere !!! 'just wont see them built right they way they used to be'
so much for some shiny new crap ( junk ) lika some of these new light rail cars made by sharyo scrap-ready-made-junkers!! LOL!!
thanks
S.W.A.
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
Ahem, Canadian, canadian cars. Also, those cars running for the past 15 or so years. They nice MDBF record as of late.
ok
Does anyone yet have an idea how the R-62A singles from the 3 are going to be paired up on the Flushing line? Linked to a five-car unit as a 6-5 pairing for an 11-car train or kept by themselves as a 5-5-1 or 5-1-5 pairing?
It seems like the first way would be the easiest arriangement, although it would allow for the fewest changes, since a six-car linked unit would have to be paired up with another five-car unit if it's regular partner had to go into the shop (two spare five-car linked units could be paired together without any problem). If all the linked units are kept at five cars and the singles are retained, a 5-5-1 or 5-1-5 arraingement would create a car isolated from all the other cars on the train by the transverse cabs (not that this is anything new for B Division riders, but it would be unique for the IRT).
On the other hand, if they did go to a set-up of linked five-car units and decided not to put transverse cabs in the remaining singles, there could still be an occassional railfan window opportunity on the Flushing Line if the singles ended up at the head end of one of the trains.
First of all, you could not operate in revenue service with a car isolated from the others. Since the R-62As have no electric door releases, passengers would be trapped in an emergency. Secondly, not all R-62s have transverse cabs. Thirdly, the cars were designed so that the transverse cab could be collapsed into a traditional corner cab with only a modest amount of labor.
First of all, you could not operate in revenue service with a car isolated from the others. Since the R-62As have no electric door releases, passengers would be trapped in an emergency.
How are they not trapped in an emergency on the 75-footers? Sure, in an emergency that the crew is aware of, they'll unlock the doors. But what if a passenger gets sick, or is physically threatened, and needs to move to another car? (About a month ago, when I found myself alone in the second car of an R-44 stopped for a few minutes between stations, I was a bit apprehensive. I suppose I would have been even more apprehensive if there had been exactly two of us.) The only way to get the attention of the crew is to pull the brake, which wouldn't be advisable.
Secondly, not all R-62s have transverse cabs.
The first and fifth cars in all five-car R-62 and R-62A linked sets have transverse cabs. (If that's not the case, some cars have been hiding pretty well.) Only the 3 runs R-62A singles, either as 1-1-1-1-5 or as 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 (so one end, if not both, of every 3 train has a railfan window).
"Only the 3 runs R-62A singles, either as 1-1-1-1-5 or as 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1."
Okay, so how does that contradict what I've said? You're not totally factually correct but that's another story. As I've said, the transverse cabs can be undone if necessary.
"But what if a passenger gets sick, or is physically threatened, and needs to move to another car?"
In a case where a train has to be evacuated, the end doors can be unlocked on a 75' car. Fire, smoke, collision, derailment, etc. can be dealt with. In the case of a sick passenger, what good is moving to another car (unless they are puking their guts out and you want to move away)? The train won't go any faster even if you alert the crew. Yes, you might be able to get a medical response a tad quicker but likely not significantly. In the case where you were being physically threatened, what makes you think the perp would just let you get up and leave? To quote Frank Correll,"What do they want for their lousy 35 cents? To live forever?".
Now let me tell you something that you will likely never need to know. The end door glass on all 75' cars is NOT glass. Lean against it! Push on it! It's a thick polycarbonate. It can flex enough to be pushed out in an emergency. Once out, you can reach the emergency unlock switch and open the door. As for you being apprehensive, what ultimately happened? I assume nothing? I assume your "Fight or Flight" response mode was just working overtime. Get yourself some pepper spray and relax a little.
Okay, so how does that contradict what I've said?
It doesn't. I was just clarifying.
You're not totally factually correct but that's another story.
So what are the true facts? I posted my observations.
As I've said, the transverse cabs can be undone if necessary.
I know. (Nice feature.)
In a case where a train has to be evacuated, the end doors can be unlocked on a 75' car. Fire, smoke, collision, derailment, etc. can be dealt with.
I know.
In the case of a sick passenger, what good is moving to another car (unless they are puking their guts out and you want to move away)? The train won't go any faster even if you alert the crew. Yes, you might be able to get a medical response a tad quicker but likely not significantly.
That depends. If the train is on a long express run or is stuck between stations, if I could reach the crew I could have medical help waiting at the next station as soon as the train arrived. And alerting the crew can make the train reach a station faster, in some cases. The crew could ask the tower to let their train go first at merges. Perhaps there's a switch to the local track that would allow me to avoid a long express run. Perhaps something's wrong and trains aren't moving at all, but the train could key by a red signal and get at least one door up to a platform or someone could accompany me up the track to a nearby station.
Maybe getting into the next car would be sufficient. We've all been on hot cars on occasion. If the train is stuck between stations and I'm suffering from the heat, all I need is the ability to move into a cooler car and I'll be fine.
In the case where you were being physically threatened, what makes you think the perp would just let you get up and leave.
Maybe he wouldn't but maybe he would. I'd rather at least have the option of trying to get away before being killed on the spot.
Now let me tell you something that you will likely never need to know. The end door glass on all 75' cars is NOT glass. Lean against it! Push on it! It's a thick polycarbonate. It can flex enough to be pushed out in an emergency. Once out, you can reach the emergency unlock switch and open the door.
I hope I never need to use this. Frankly, I'm not terribly strong; I don't know if I'd be able to push it out (I've never had the chance to try). Certainly, if someone's coming at me with a knife, I doubt I'd get it out in time. But it is better than nothing.
As for you being apprehensive, what ultimately happened? I assume nothing? I assume your "Fight or Flight" response mode was just working overtime. Get yourself some pepper spray and relax a little.
Oh, nothing happened. I wasn't going nuts or anything; I just would have preferred to not be locked up alone for an indefinite period of time. (No announcements were made. I had no idea what was going on or how much longer we'd be there.)
Adreneline my friend. That's your best friend in those type of situations. You'll have strength you never knew. I've been locked up on an F Train like that before. It was before Coney Island and it was to "keep the train warm". I was locked up with a sleeping passenger who looked homeless with head down but wasn't when he woke up.
Didn't know about the absence of the electric door releases on the R-62 series cars. So then I would assume based on what you've said we looking at a 5-1-1-1-1-1-1 arrangement with the R-62As when they move over to the Flushing Line, with at least the head end single being modified to have a transverse cab.
If for some reason eveny sixth single wasn't modified or if for some reason a modified single at the T/O position had to be quickly replaced with an unmodified one, then there would still likely be a railfan window in at least one direction on the No. 7 train in the future.
If that's the case, there could be celebrations in the streets of Los Angeles tonight :-)
Not necessarilly. There are several possibilities. It is entirely possible that one Transverse cab will be eliminated at one end of every 5 car link. Then you could run 5-1-5 as long as the transverse cab was always at the operating end and not at the C/R's position. It's also possible that the transverse cabs will be eliminated altogether. Considering the swinging loads on the #7 line, space is at a premium and should be conserved.
The transverse cabs do have a high chance of elimination for several reasons. One is, of course, the problem with the isolated car. Another is the fact that the line does not run OPTO, and will most likely never run OPTO, and therefore transverse cabs are unneccessary (except to make the C/R's life easier). Third is the amount of political complaint about the elimination of railfan windows on the line that is most famous for it's view of the NY skyline from said window.
Isn't space a premium on just about all of the IRT lines? The transverse cabs are only really needed on the 5 OPTO shuttle (and even there, a camera/monitor system would do a better job, although, granted, it would be more expensive to implement reliably).
Is there some way to remove a cab entirely? A typical ten-car train has 16 cabs that could never possibly be used. (If there is, the provision isn't as obvious as the wall that folds out to make a transverse cab. It would be nice, though.)
All the R62's and R62A's (and the R68 and R68a's for that matter) were ment to be run as singles, given the idea that either cab would be used at some date.
Sounds like having the transverse cabs only at the T/O position would be the most logical set-up, though it would seem to make the most sense on the No. 1 train as well, but they haven't done it, much to the anger of new South Ferry-bound passengers who aren't paying attention to the annoucements :-)
I've seen a C/R on the 1 Line with both his cab doors locked to the side panels allowing for free movement between the 5th and 6th car, thus, the whole train.
I thought that's what they were required to do at Rector.
I rode the 1 down to Rector last week, for the first time since the transverse cabs were installed (er, unfolded). (I'll be going back today, assuming the proper paperwork comes in the mail and I'll actually be able to accomplish something at the DMV.) The C/R announced a few times that passengers for South Ferry should move to the fron five cars but didn't fold up the cab and didn't indicate in any way which cars were the first five. (Most people don't count cars before they board. Can the C/R flash the lights in only the cars behind him? That would be a good way to indicate to passengers that they're in the wrong place.)
That's the way it should be, but the few times I've taken the 1 down to SF the past few years, it hasn't been like that and those in the rear cars at Rector either do a platform move or earn a round-trip, all expense paid trip to Rector.
Can we assume that the TA will continue operating 11 car trains?
The TO's and conductors on this board would know. Is it plausible that MTA could introduce a 10 car train to the Flushing line (of course, that would be a disaster for crowding). More frequent service would be needed.
This is one place where Stephen Baumann's yelling about the need for single cars would hold much merit...
There was a plan at one point to run 10-car #7 trains. Needless to say, that was before the ridership increases of the past four or so years.
David
Don't forget, for the past few years, they've ran 10 cars during the summer months.
I cant believe I actually saw this car there. Im still in shock. I saw this car at about 5 PM.
Yup I saw it from the 7 today.
The R-62As have railfan windows sort of but the view out of them leaves something to be desired. Before they went over to the full width cabs these cars had decent railfan windows. The thrill of riding the "7" line will be diminished a little with the R-62As with the poor excuses for railfan windows.
BMTJeff
There goes the last 100% redbird yard!
Well, we now have enough to assume two things: One, the first R-62A #7 train will probably have eleven cars. Two, they probably will not be making 6 car sets as that would have been done before it got there. The trains will likely consist of two five car sets with one single.
It all starts with one R-62A. Then like magic, they will multiply sending the darlings of the World's Fair to relocate to a Delaware ocean view !!
Ohhhhh... the Flushing Express won't be the same without railfan windows......sigh !
Bill "Newkirk"
But you have to admit, those R-62As can move!!
But at least the fish and the coral won't need a Metrocard. :0)
When the R62A's arrive on the 7, I hear that the 7 Express will be renamed the 11 Line. How true is this?
R36#9543Gary
It may be true. Escpecially if the redbirds don't have an 11 which is what may have been keeping them back from doing so (intergrating the 11). I think there'd be less confusion at Queensboro Plaza and Main Street.
I highly doubt it.
For one thing, the line won't switch from Redbird to R-62A overnight. During the transition, do you really want the same line to have two different numbers depending on the color of the cars?
For another, the expresses in one direction return as locals. If the crew has to crank the signs in all the cars at each end of the trip, you'd be better off taking the local.
Oh, and why confuse everyone with a totally gratuitous change? Just look at the signs and listen to the announcements.
Please!!!!! I work the 7 line many times. I can say the annoucements as loud and as many times as I want and people still ask if the train is express or local. One time I was stuck at QBP for 5 minutes with people holding doors and asking if it was express or not. Same thing with the 1/9 skip stop and rush hour 5 Bronx express. BTW, Some R62a's have a diamond 7 and others just have the 11.
Please!!!!! I work the 7 line many times. I can say the annoucements as loud and as many times as I want and people still ask if the train is express or local.
Were the signs set correctly? (Often they're not. And the WF Redbirds don't have knobs on the signs, so that's no excuse.)
Same thing with the 1/9 skip stop and rush hour 5 Bronx express.
The 1/9 is a problem because there's no way to tell if a 1 is making all stops or not without memorizing the skip-stop schedule. (And all-stop 1's are often signed as 9's -- that doesn't help, either.)
BTW, Some R62a's have a diamond 7 and others just have the 11.
The ones without the diamond should be used only on the local, then.
Yes, the signs are set correctly on the 7 Line Redbirds. There are platform C/R's at Main Street whose job is to set the correct signage so thats no excuse. People think they can magaically make the train go express or local if they ask one by one. Cmon, there are C/R's who dont make proper annoucements, but there are also passengers who dont listen to annoucements as well. When they get off at the wrong stop, they get mad at you. Its their fault for not listening. Dont get me started on passengers not reading the red and white GO notices in the stations............
Only ONE of them though?
It might just be there so crews can get familiar with them... though obviously more will follow.
Does anyone think it is possible they will try to run it in a redbird train to make a completely air conditioned 11-car train? I know the couplers are the same, but I wonder if they can run together.
Not a chance. The R36 cars still have their original three row electric portions, while the newer cars have 4 rows. They can be transferred, but not M.U.d in service for passengers.
Please be advised that the 3 line is getting Pelham Cars. Cars#1871-75 was spotted on the 3 this weekend. That makes 30 cars from Pelham on the 3 line that I have seen.(1871-1900).
OK an annoying thing happens when I get to Flushing in the morning. Lately I get down there signs by the stairs down to the platform say "express" so I go to that one only to find the express is on another platform, and by the time I get there the doors close. But today, the train closed it's doors and SAT there for two minutes because the T/O didn't get a line-up. Does the C/R open the doors? No! Nonetheless passengers are peeved. So I have to wait 10 minutes for the next express. Often in the morning the tower is a mess, and trains get delayed and there's often 10 or 15 minutes between trains leaving Flushing in the AM rush.
So the next train comes in and the doors close on our express, again, no line-up. The T/O mutters "where's the damn line-up". They let a train in first, then we depart. And passengers waiting outside the train looked peeved while we sat there with doors closed. I wonder how many times people see this and are temped to board in between cars.
While on the express abit after 9:30am we left Queensboro plaza and saw a Flushing bound 7 train that appeared to be stuck entering the station. We saw trains held at 45th, Hunterspoint, and one also at Grand Central (holding lights). looked like a real mess.
Then in the afternoon around 3pm I saw an Astoria bound N waiting with a red at Lexington, there was another train ahead of it in the tunnel but it didn't appear to be moving.
Looks like two BIE's that I saw, but it was a pretty good day since I wasn't involved or stuck behind them.
yo bro at Main st. if the c/r opens up he wont get them closed again.
Thats why we are told if the bell goes off close down give 2 then wait ,thats it ,another train leaves in 2 minutes.Thats right 2 minute headways on the 7.
Problem is another train does not come in two minutes. Lately I've been waiting 5 minutes or more for another train (any train).
I'm not blaming the C/R's, they are just doing their job. It's the tower that has most of the blame, they seem to be slow in giving line-ups and are very unorganized. They do seem to be doing signal work in the area, hopefully with the new system the line-ups will come quicker. This problem has only happened since this beginning of this year, maybe it has to do with the work they are doing around there.
After hanging out in the Canal street bridge station after about 15 minutes I saw one of the school cars go through. It was a four car train of R68's with the front sign reading "not in service" the side signs were sortof blank through you could make out an upside down diamond Q (yellow) in some of them. Also rode on the N line to 8th ave from Canal both ways. Going I had an R32 with a motorman training.
I learned a new term today. The two small lights on the signal before a river crossing (usually white if no problem) are referred to as "cat eyes" from what I heard. After the last homeball out of Whitehall (went in on the middle) the Montague tubes aren't bad as the instructor says to "wrap it". We had to run express on the local on 4th ave because of the school car at Pacific.
Going back I had a Slant R40 N train, which didn't make much headway in front of the R, since there seemed to be delays around 36th street even though this time it was on the express track.
I've always noticed those "cat eye" signals near river crossings, usually at the last station before one. I wonder why the TA uses them.
Before the advent of full-time radio communication between trains and dispatchers, the "cat's eye" signals were used to signal operators to changes in orders. White means proceed as planned, red means contact dispatcher. They're at the beginning of tunnels and river crossings because the train used to be out of contact at these times.
Dan
Those signals are called "Train Order Signals" or "Cat's Eyes" since that's how they look when you look at them.
If activated, the signal will turn red and a box will illuminate. Inside the box will read "Call Control 4111". The four numbers will vary by division.
Also, the stop arm associated with the signal will automatically come up tripping any train that comes upon it, or is currently on the circuit (the stop arm will come up underneath the train, tripping it).
These signals are rarely used.
I've never had an experience where the "cat's eye" signals are used. Not yet anyway. Thanks I've always wondered what those signals meant. In the Peter Dougherty track guide I have it has them under older signals that will eventually be phased out. There is one at 63/Lex Queens bound though, and that section is fairly new.
Interesting that you would post the number for the IRT Desk.
Well there is a smidge of the IRT still in me. I still call the middle track M track instead of 3/4 track. That's about it though.
Those four car R68 school cars are for the Manhattan Bridge Qualification courses. I had mine today at the spritely assigned time of 4:25 am (yawn). I tell ya, there's nothing like waking up at 3:05 am to go to work.
Or waking up around 2 AM to report/post at Stillwell today (452 AM on the Q) and yesterday (437 AM on the B). I live in Queens - I drove and parked at Tower B in the Coney Island Yards. DEFINITELY a new experience for this newbie T/O!
Well now you know what to expect for the next 1 1/2 to 2 years of your life.
But at least you did your job and that was it.
I reported to Pacific Street at 4:25 am, qualified for a little over an hour, THEN I had to go to PAE to start my E job at 7 am. So my day lasted from 4:25 am to 4:25 pm. Not a swell thing to do on limited sleep.
Did you get the $$$ for the twelve hour workday, or did the TA screw you over?
Or oversleeping (set radio alarm, but forgot to turn uo volume) until 2:45 and rushing for a 4:19 report at 179, and finding myself in a dead end in Maspeth with nothing running, and having to walk the rest of the way down Grand Av. to Queens Blvd. at 3:30 AM. (Mon.) Wonder if you'll have to do that whenever you report to MET.
Nope, Eric...not at all. : - )
I'll probably take 2 buses (Q83, Q54) for my 5:41 AM report on Monday.
I spotted this thing (4 car R68 with screwy signs) far, far north - at 34th street herald sq. It was turning back south just north of the station. Are they requalifying crews on the Bway express tracks up to 34th as part of the manhattan bridge thing????
Why would they need to? Until a week or two ago, the N/R was running express in Manhattan, first northbound, then southbound.
42nd Street is the first spot where they can turn the qualification trains back south.
Traveling CI-bound early this afternoon, I noticed a few (probably four) R-32s on the express track, lights out. There was equipment inside but I couldn't identify it before we passed and the destination sign read "X." The paneling around the destination sign was akin to that of an R-38, not an R-32. I saw them pretty far south on the line, possibly around Kings Highway.
What are these trains and what are they doing there?
Dan
Also saw R68's and 32's layed up on the express tracks on Broadway between 42 and 57th. And an R42 Not in Service pulling northbound out of Canal.
Those are the R32GEs being used for fliming the movie "Men In Black 2"
What does the "GE" designation stand for?
Ot's my understanding (if I'm wrong, any TA employees feel free to correct me, but be nice about it, OK?) that 10 R32s were rehabed by GE, unlike the rest that were rehabed by Morrison-Knudsen.
The 10 GE rehabs were made very similar to R38s, and I often saw them, as recently as last year, hooked up to actual R38s. Almsot always, they ran on the "A".
In May '01, I saw, for the first time to my knowledge, on a sunday afternoon, an "A" made of up ordinary R32s.
MOVIE, I was there today by church avenue, I live noot too far from there, I wanted to go into the tunnel and walk into church ave yard, but too many people on plat, i was disappointed , i really wanted to see what wasgoing on there.
Walk into the IND tunnel into those lower level yards???
Geez you have a big pair. At least wear a reflective vest and carry a lamp, those lower level turnouts still see occasional service!!!!
I've seen them marked "X" on the front when rolling out of service...
I am 100% sure of what I saw today. While waiting at Canal for a Brooklyn bound N I saw an R42 displaying a white "not in service" front sign pull northbound out of the City Hall storage area. Wonder what the heck it was doing there? Never seen an 42 on Broadway before.
It appeared to be full length, so it wasn't a school car.
Ummm...it could very well have been a school car. So long as cars are available, school cars practicing on the road are full-length.
Hey dude, about a year ago, I recall seeing R-40m-42 cars running on a few "N" trains on Broadway, or perhaps they were borrowed cars from the "J" line during the last Willy B. reconstruction--BUT I DID SEE AND RIDE THEM. During the '70's, R-40m and R-42's were not uncommon on the occassional "QB", "N" (esp in the mid-70's), and more commonly on the "RR". That was a relief, especially in the Summer since at that time, the R27-30's and the R-32-38's were not air-conditioned!!
Tony
Right you are. There were even several mixed consists of R-32's, 40m's and 42's running on the N at that time. The bad thing about it was that they did not send any of the M&K 42's over to the south at this time. Only those crapcans that were rebuilt in Coney Island Shops. The cab windows on those things are murder, I wonder if anything was done to correct that since? I havent worked the East in years, maybe someone in the know can shed some light on this.
Except for the rush hour "M" trains, the last time that I can recall the R-40m's or R-42's in regular service on the Southern BMT was before the first MannyB fiasco about 1985 on the "D", "B", "RR", "M" Brighton and a lingering "QB"leaving Canal St. Then, the "D" Concourse short line of the '80's was full of them. After that, it's basically been on the Eastern Division BMT that the cars run. I guess the Southern Division wanted to sport the R-46's and 68-110's for modern purposes (I would say speed, but why bother!!). I knida miss the 40m's-42's on the "F", but they ran there so infrequently during the mid-70's. The "F" needs some variety!! Iwonder where the R-40m's and 42's will go when the new R-143's go to the eastern Division?? To the "C" ?? Tony
Yeah, I remember R42s or R40Ms on the "N" during the Williamsburg Bridge closure of 1999.
In May one morning, I saw a salnt R40 on the "J" at Broad Street. Since I never saw that again (tho haven't been on the J, M, or Z in a few weeks) I presume it was a loaner, from the "L", perhaps?
I remember riding on an (N) train that was a mixed consist of R32's and R42's! That was when the Willy B was closed.
That must have been a funny looking train!!
Yes. It was weird to walk from an R42 to the next car, discovering that it's an R32!
When the R-42s first entered service, they were distributed throughout the IND and BMT divisions, even intermixed with older SMEE cars in the same train. I remember seeing R-32s and R-42s coupled together on D trains, and it drove me nuts. That was the short-lived era of smorgasbord trains on the B division. Then in July of 1971, I rode on a solid R-42 N train from Manhattan to Coney Island. It SMOKED along Broadway and 4th Ave.; local stops were blurs and the ones between DeKalb and 36th St. looked like strobe lights.
Best mixI remember was the R/11 and pre GOH r/32 on the Franklin Shuttle. a 2for 1 mix.
avid
I miss the mixes on the 1,2,3,and 5 lines of R-12 and 14's with all of the other post-war IRT cars running together in a single train!!
They sure stuck out like sore thumbs, didn't they?
I remember seeing on the B line R-27,R-32 and R-42 on one train. That was a strange sight. I loved those days when there was variety on my Westend line.The Graffiti i did'nt like I thought it ruined the appearance of the Subway cars. I was between 10 to 15years old then in those times.
Sometimes, an occasional (M) train (or a train using cars from that line) run, not in service, up to Astoria. I've seen a couple of these, and I rode one up the Broadway express to Times Square back in 1998.
For anyone who remembers going over the Manhattan Bridge on the Broadway side, I can tell you one thing, not much has changed.
The signals are the same, but there is new railing along the tracks. Otherwise, very non descript and a non-event. Timers are set all the way northbound up until 2/3rds of the way into Canal Street. The station renovation however looks nice.
Sorry if this post isn't too exciting. The newbies should get quite a kick out of it though.
I wonder how many people on this board have never ridden on a BMT Broadway Express via the Manhattan Bridge? You're right - it will certainly be a new experience for them.
QB as well as NX here. :)
N/QB here.
Well, the Walkway on the south side of the bridge is open for the first time in 40+ years. I have never been on the walkway, so that's kind of exciting. Another place to view trains real close.
--Mark
I have never been on the bridge south side. In fact, until I started making railfan trips in 1997 I never even knew trains went over suspension bridges (or it had slipped my mind).
Well I never rode a Broadway express via bridge. I am very much looking forward to it, in fact I want to ride across the south side the first day it opens.
Same here...though i will be taking that ride the first day, as I need to get into work somehow....i think i'll trasfer back to the 6th Avenue at 34th....this is gonna be slightly annoying, but interesting.
Geez, I wish I could ride through on opening day (or before, but that's not all that likely, alas...). I will be out of the country that weekend, so my first-ever ride on the South Side will have to wait until the following day.
I seem to have the knack of missing important dates like that...I missed the E running through 63rd St. for the same reason. (Has there ever been a GO brinning E's through 63rd St. since that first weekend?)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
There was one E via 63rd GO after the first weekend. They actually differentiated express and local after Queensbridge, unlike the first time where they threw everyone on the local track.
I did - all through high school.
I rode it during the short period in 1990. Note, I was born in '86... I only remember the upper corner of the R68 side window from my seat. The train very crowded and the train was whining and moving slowly.
The N train was one of my favorite lines to ride years ago. It had every thing to offer a flegling rail fan.R32's mostly in those days for me, and it only ran between 57/7 ave and Coney Island[yes, thats as far as it went for so of you new guys] my first ride[that i can remember]was going to Coney Island on a brandnew R42[a loooong time ago]Now ,the fun has gone away. oh well,one can hope,right?
You're not along Triple Seven. Ever since they made the Sea Beach a local and sent it to Astoria it is been all downhill for it. At one time the #4, now the "N" went from 42nd Street to Coney Island, and in 1957 was moved two stations north to 57th Street. Since I'm 60 and an old timer by most of your standards my frustration as to what has happened to my favorite line knows no bounds. From 1947-1954 riding the Sea Beach was always a great thrill for me-----blasting express through much of Manhattan, chugging over the Manny B, roaring down 4th Avenue, and whooshing through those great mini=tunnels was a joy hard to describe. And when I discuss it I know I'm living in the past. It's been pointed out to me several times.
It's too bad the NX express service didn't work out for one reason or another. A true Sea beach Express would really be soemthing
The NX "didn't work out" because of lack of ridership. From what I understand from posts by Ed Sachs and Paul Matus and others, the longest-lasting Sea Beach Express was part of the route of the Brighton-Franklin Express, that ran from Chambers St. via Dekalb, Sea Beach, via Coney Island, Brighton, to Fulton St.-Franklin Av. Now that was the greatest express NYC ever had!
Yeah,I agree completly. Thats how I feel about the Jamaica line.It hasnt been the same since 1973.
You actually remember a subway ride when you were 4 years old? That's incredible.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, I was only a little baby when the graffitti era was coming to a close. And it was a good thing, too: I do remember how slow the trains picked up, how bad the lights were, and how the would - be redbirds were covered wall to wall with all sorts of gang messages.
i remember when they closed the broadway tracks back in 1989.It took NYCDOT approximately 13 years to repair these tracks.What makes them think they can complete the 6 avenue tracks in 3 years?
Structurally, the bridge has been closed one for the north, once for the south and again on the north during the south at specific parts of the day. This final close is probably for removal of asbestos and a new paint job.
I vividly remember riding the portion of the J east of Queens Blvd, and it was closed in 1977, when I was 5.
N's et al on both sides(pre/post Chrystie)
Did you go over the bridge from the Nassau loop? I never did.
"wonder how many people on this board have never ridden on a BMT Broadway Express via the Manhattan Bridge? You're right - it will certainly be a new experience for them."
On the north side, how about A-B and D Types. Brighton, West End and Sea Beach. And also R-27/30s and R-32s afterwards.
Bill "Newkirk"
All the time during the summer, on the way to the beach...
How many recall that shuttle on 6th ave round the mid 80's though? Call me nuts, but i used to love to ride that thing. it was the filthest, graffiti coated piece of train running. I recall one day all the end doors were stuck open, newspapers were flying about, and some of the doors had hand-made signs saying they wouldn't open.. which of course they didn't...
fun AND excitement.
The R was only slightly cleaner... then they did that N/R flip flop and commuting's been pretty dull ever since.
(How many recall that shuttle on 6th ave round the mid 80's though? Call me nuts, but i used to love to ride that thing. it was the filthest, graffiti coated piece of train running. I recall one day all the end doors were stuck open, newspapers were flying about, and some of the doors had hand-made signs saying they wouldn't open.. which of course they didn't...)
You're talking about a bad memory for me. 1986 to 1990 was my first four years in Brooklyn, and I hadn't developed full knowledge of the system or an appreciation for riding it just for the heck of it. It was strictly the F, the A, and the 1/2/3. So I never rode the south side of the bridge.
But I remember the shuttle, though I never rode it. It was the offical homeless hotel, and the stench was overwhelming. That and Broadway-Nassau station were the public toilets of the 1980s.
Memories of the shuttle are one reason I think they would be better off closing Grand Street station than running it again. I only hope they use cars that they expect to be replaced by the R143s.
Why was it so bad?
I dodn't use the system much in the 80s, but I rember a newspaper article (Daily News or Post) describing the terrible condition of the Grand Street shuttle. I made it a point to get a look at one, though I really can't personally remember it being as bad as the papers said. I do suppose, though, since a fellow sub-talker says it was, it was.
What I also remember (and have a map from the era) was that the shuttle ran from 57th to Grand, not just from Bway/Laff. With that in mind, wouldn't it make more sense to run the V to Grand, rather than Second Avenue, at least for the duration of the M/B closure? This saves a shuttle run and a few cars, AND gives Grand St customers a real line, at least in one direction.
As I've posted numerous times here, I agree. I won't repeat my specific ideas in this post, but suffice it to say that it could be done, at reasonable headways, for less than the cost of what the TA actually has planned. The downside? It would require a slight change in operating procedures. That's it.
The Grand Street Shuttle of the '80's was made up of graffittied, dirty, loud, HOT R27-30's. This was before they got their red paint scheme. The shuttle was real hideous, but people rode it I recall most regular users of Grand Street pre-re-construction merely used the Canal St or East Broadway Stations and walked a bit while there was no service from Grand to Brooklyn. Tony
Also, Grand St. was much less important 15 years ago. I remember similiar whining about the lack of direct service to Canal St. from Brooklyn. Which is why I keep saying that people will adjust to whatever service the TA runs.
It was
absolutely awful for any number of reasons. Primary reason was the fact that it was the end of the infamous "deffered maintenance" era and it was one of the few lines left that epitomized the "graffitti era". These 2 elements combined to make a truly shitty train line, in terms of appearance
and service. Whatever was left of the unrehabbed R27/30s saw their last days on this line.
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember the condition of the system in the grafitti days. Are you saying the shuttle wasn't any worse than that, only that the rest of the system had progressed past that stage?
(I remember the condition of the system in the grafitti days. Are you saying the shuttle wasn't any worse than that, only that the rest of the system had progressed past that stage?)
The crack epidemic was peaking, and the institutional framework that now gets many drug addicts, alcoholics, and the mentally ill off the streets were not in place. Neither were the court decisions that allowed the TA to move "residents" out of the system and to prohibit "begging" to capitive audiences. So very screwed up people were everywhere -- in Penn Station, Grand Centarl and the Bus Terminals as well as the subways. One reason the Port Authority fought a subway connection to the airports.
Why the shuttle? It didn't go outside, so it was air conditioned in the summer, heated in the winter, or so I was told. The only people who took it were those who absolutely had to go to Grand Street, and therefore the addicts/mentally ill basically took it over off peak. Aside from rush hours, it was a rolling flophouse.
Why the shuttle? It didn't go outside, so it was air conditioned in the summer, heated in the winter, or so I was told. The only people who took it were those who absolutely had to go to Grand Street, and therefore the addicts/mentally ill basically took it over off peak. Aside from rush hours, it was a rolling flophouse.
Sounds like it was worse than the E train is today!
Imagine the E, squared. No AC, bums peeing whereever, tons of graffiti, tons of filth... They shoulda gave out tetnis shots as you boarded...
The E was pretty bad during winter.
Late nights, it stunk really bad.
I remember an article on the Times telling
how homelesses prefered the E and the R,
with their underground only long runs.
And the Grand St. shuttle...
It was hectic. 4-car set of R27-30,
tagged to the point no one would even call it art.
During the occasional GOs, the Shuttle would
run on the express tracks between 34th and W4th.
A railfan window in a dim lit car was a treat.
you could see the tracks very well.
But no, I don't miss those dirty trains.
It was a shame.
Which may have led to the truncation of the line at nights to W4th St. parallel with the N/R terminal flip of 5/87.
And the 57th St mezzanine was the stationary flophouse. It looked just like a shelter with people sleeping on the floor from wall to wall. It's amazing how they cleaned it up. (Leaves no excuse not to reopen the 33rd St. passage)
The shuttle was actually better than the M train pre mid-1987. Made up mostly of R16's, the M was worse. In fact, when the shuttle first started running in spring 1986, it was typical of most lines, as grafitti and broken cars were commonplace. Anyone remember the condition of the R42's assigned to the northern D line?
>>>Anyone remember the condition of the R42's assigned to the northern D line?
Vividly, Absolute shitboxes.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just think it's a bit comical, looking back at how absolutely miserable that line was. Whenever i thought the R was absolute shit back then, a ride on the 6th av shuttle made me glad for anything better.
I agree: They'd be wise to assign some soon-to-be scrap to that grand st. shuttle, cuz it's definately going to get ugly.
They're supposed to be using a 4 car R-46 unit.
But things have changed a lot since then. Ridership at Grand St is way up, plus the 6th Av. shuttle will go beyond 57th to Lexington, Roosevelt Island and 21st, drawing many more riders, so the problems of the old 6th Av shuttle won't be repeated. The shuttles that ran during all the weekend bridge closings since the last flip weren't anything like that.
It won't be that bad. Times were different in 1986-88. I'm sure the TA will maintain the shuttle as well as other lines.
>>>How many recall that shuttle on 6th ave round the mid 80's though? Call me nuts, but i used to love to ride that thing. it was the filthest, graffiti coated piece of train running. I recall one day all the end doors were stuck open, newspapers were flying about, and some of the doors had hand-made signs saying they wouldn't open.. which of course they didn't...<<<
YOU are absolutely correct....I remember that piece of shit well...I remember riding it one time and all the lights in the car were out well...the cab door was flopping open at the end of the car and I looked inside and sure enough, the only problem was that the breaker was off. I turned it back on and all the lights in the car went on. I was applauded by MOST of the car except for this one homeless guy (probably the one who turned the lights off) who threatened me and the went back to sleep.....those were the days.
Peace,
ANDEE
Damn... I bet the homeless guy rode the line often enough to know how to shut the lights off... !
Hell, he probably had his own set of cab keys!
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup, I remember it. Flat wheeled R27's, refugees from the Eastern Division based out of ENY, just one step short of the scrapper's torch. Never cleaned either. I once saw newspapers on this train at least a month old. They used to crawl through Broadway Lafayette in both directions on the southbound track. The wait at W4th for the next train to clear Bway/Laf must've been annoying to those bound for Grand St.
All the time during the summer, on the way to the beach...
How many recall that shuttle on 6th ave round the mid 80's though? Call me nuts, but i used to love to ride that thing. it was the filthest, graffiti coated piece of train running. I recall one day all the end doors were stuck open, newspapers were flying about, and some of the doors had hand-made signs saying they wouldn't open.. which of course they didn't...
fun AND excitement.
The R was only slightly cleaner... then they did that N/R flip flop and commuting's been pretty dull ever since.
That used to be the title of my Sea Beach---The Broadway Express. Alas, that is no longer so, and, therefore, I don't give a rat's ass about what is going over the Manny B disguised as the BE since it would be a fraud to begin with.
Well, the West End and Brighton expresses were also considered Broadway expresses. In fact, the original R-27/30 route signs included Broadway as well as the old titles. Thus you had Broadway-Brighton for the Q, Broadway-West End for the T, and Broadway-Sea Beach for the N.
I've lived in NYC virtually all my life. I don't think I've yet ridden accross the sotuh side M/B tracks. Hopefully, I'll get myself on an R32 or other car with a RF window once the line's open. And yes, I really like the green tilework in the Bridge line station. It's nice that that color is unique to that portion of the Canal St complex.
You want green at Canal? Go upstairs to the northbound J/M/Z platform. (What were they thinking?)
I checked out the J/M/Z platform on Tuesday, with just this (the color scheme) in mind. It has green along the mosaic band, but NOT along the floor, as does the soon to be Q/W platforms.
The paint! The paint on the columns! How could you miss it? It's gruesome! It's even worse than the color officially known as Lex IRT Northbound Platform Extension Green!
Go go R40!!!
I have - both north (1965, 1967) and south sides (post-Chrystie St.).
Old Fart 8-))
ITOTKO
Peace,
ANDEE
Rode it back in the 80s when they had the split D service.
I'm 45 and have never rode that route. Bronx boy, what can I say?
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember riding both sides, right after the opening of Chrystie Street. I had hopes for the Second Ave line, too, but we all know where that went.
For those who may not remember, the north tracks led to B'way, and the south tracks led to Nassau Loop.
This info was, of course, prior to 11/26/67.
One of the original copies of the Declaration of Independence (the one found behind a painting and then privately sold) is makeing a cross country tour and today it made the trip from DC to Philly via first class on ACELA Express. I saw the story on Channel 6 Action News. The reporter was interviewing the guy while they were riding the train in the first class car. Tomorrow the copy will be used in a celebrity reading in front of the art museum in Philly.
I saw an Acela train going across Hell Gate this morning. First time I've seen one in action.
Hi folks! Too bad I've been away so long.
I'm getting back east for a brief trip but I do get to ride amtrak from New York to Albany - yay! So I am wondering what the status is of turboliners on this route. If i recall correctly, there is one set in service on the line. Is this so? If so, does it typically make a certain run? My travel plans are not very flexible but if a small adjustment would allow me to take that trainset, i certainly would!
Thanks very much -
David
They shoud use Talgo train cars insted.
NO! Those cars suck. They are way to cramped and small. Send them back to Europe with the rest of the Eurotrash. Maybe if there's enough demand someone could revive Pullman.
Sorry Mike. Pullman's a relic from the days of caveman engineering. Nobody builds railcars like that today because no RR in their right mind would buy such poor performing, overweight, overpriced cars. 100 years ago, nobody understood fatigue, endurance limits, the effects of welds on material strength, the effects of surface finish, stress cocentrators, truck dynamics, envronmental effects, suspension design, etc etc etc. Today, we know about that stuff, and we can design better, lighter, and yes, safer, railcars.
Years ago, things were overbuilt because nobody understood why things broke. Or seemingly overbuilt. The Comet airliner is a classic case study in fatigue, but what most people never realize is that DeHaviland not only built it to withstand the pressure differentials that the British aviation authorities required, but went quite a bit beyond them. In terms of busting strength, it was massively overengineered, yet the planes were breaking apart at an alarming rate. It really wasn't until those crashes that fatigue became more of a consideration. Ever wonder why airplane windows don't have square edges? ever wonder why recent railcars don't, either?
Today, we can build a much better railcar than we could have 50 years ago, and there's no reason not to.
I certainly think we can do better today than in the past. But Pullman's R-46 was a very respectable subway car and owed most of its early teething problems to Rockwell's badly designed lightweight trucks.With conventional trucks, the cars worked a lot better. The cars today are well-liked by passengers and are likely to continue soldiering on for a while.(notice I said passengers, not tech-nerd Subfans :-)).
Still, Pullman (or whatever controls Pullman's assets today) is gone from passenger railcars.
"Still, Pullman (or whatever controls Pullman's assets today) is gone from passenger railcars" Bombardier owns the designs for both Budd and Pullman passenger cars. try buying documentation from them, they will sock it to you, The U.S. Government should make them divest those designs (Free Market fools SHUT UP havent your half-baked economic thoeries that won't work outside the classroom done enough damage.)
My main complaint is with size (altough safety is usually nice too). Sure you can make a train lightweight by making it the size of a sardine can or making it out of cardboard, but that sucks. I don't want to pay good money to ride in the rail equivalent of a Geo Metro. At that point I might as well drive my SUV (SUV purchase pending). My contention is that the one of the best way for trains to compete is to provide a palace on wheels. If I'm going to get stuffed into a gym locker I might as well fly.
It really wasn't until those crashes that fatigue became more of a consideration.
Isn't fatigue a metal problem? Maybe DeHavland should have bought some ALCOA stuff. Russians also do great work in metalurgy.
Ever wonder why airplane windows don't have square edges? ever wonder why recent railcars don't, either?
Sort of. With railcars won't it just not matter due to the low forces involved?
effects of welds on material strength,
Is that a plug for rivets?
Anyway overengineering does have its benifits. Look at bridges and other stuff built from 1900->1950. Most of that stuff is atom-bomb proof.
*/Isn't fatigue a metal problem? Maybe DeHavland should have bought some ALCOA stuff. Russians also do great work in metalurgy. */
NO. It's both a materials AND a design issue. The Russians also have large reserves of fatigue resistant titanium. Anyway, even the best materials can crack and break if used in the wrong application.
/*Sort of. With railcars won't it just not matter due to the low forces involved? */
No. Remember, railcar bodies twist and flex too. At least some of the forces will be carried by the skin on the outside, and if you have sharp corners, you get a stress concentrator. The stresses go up greatly there. And cracks form. By rounding the corners, you reduce the stress concentration, and you won't get cracks. Play around with plates with windows in the in ANSYS if you don't believe me :)
/*Is that a plug for rivets? */
Yes/no. Welds aren't a Bad Thing (tm), but they're much less predictable than rivets. With rivets, the effects of the hole, etc are more predictable. Welds are pretty variable. They can change the heat treat on the metal, cause an undesireable heat treat, cause weird stresses, etc, etc.
Remember, railcar bodies twist and flex too. At least some of the forces will be carried by the skin on the outside, and if you have sharp corners, you get a stress concentrator.
I thought the whole point of railcar design was to make as much of the force as possible be carried by internal framing and not the carbody. Anywho, the only railcars I know w/ square windows are the ML Redbirds, RDC Budd cars and 5700 class ex NYC ACMU's. Can you comment on the duribility of their structures as compared to round window cars? Does the fatiegue resistance outweigh the added cost of rounded windows?
Are there Talgos that can load at high-level platforms? (The ones in use on the Cascades route can't.)
Anyway, the Turboliners are already around and owned by the NYSDOT, with funds for rebuilding. No immediate reason to go out and buy more trainsets.
Give them a call at 800-872-7245 and ask. I know there's one run on Fridays northbound and a morning run southbound. Since you're only going as far north as Rensselaer (ALB) you'll see it more often than if you were going west of here.
The only trips I know of arrive at NYP at around 2:30 PM and leave at 4:30 PM (don't know the exact times, they keep changing them, you can figure it out from the schedule).
Amtrak backed away from commiting the money to upgrade the track to Albany ... so we'll have to see what the Governor does about it now,
i.e. he came up with the money to fix up the turbos.
Mr t__:^)
No budget so far, tax receipts WAY down ... I'd say the gov isn't in much of a position to do anything at the moment other than personal fundraising. We're QUITE nervous up here about it all given that the route of the pointless arrow is ALL we've got ... Rensselaer's also cut off since there are track moves yet to be done and that ain't been funded either.
lol i do like the Redbirds on the 7 line, seeing a R62A on the 7 would be great. And Railfan Windows aren't a problem if u know some Motormen on the 7. I know Motormen on the 6 and F who let me see in there or Ride in there, so.....
And besides Maybe the R62A's will look Good on the 7. Plus the 7 is my Favorite A Division line
TODAY!
The BHRA finally got car #70 to actually run. It ran a couple hundred feet forward and then back on the track, without anything exploding, or blowing any fuses. It was spectacular, seeing this thing finally work, considering that it is over 50 years old, and had beeen sitting unused for a while. But trolley will return to the streets of Brooklyn soon enough.....
COOL! The beauty of those things, aside from the various components weighing PLENTY, is that they were elegantly simple once the contacts get cleaned up and the stray dirt paths to ground are eliminated. Glad to hear one of them has come back from beyond the grave!
There's some NJT guys in Newark who know them pretty well ...
PCC equipment doesn't weigh very much at all. I do have to agree that they are very elegantly designed in both their mechanical systems and the body design. PCCs are also the hotrods of streetcars - fast acceleration and fast braking (ever been on one in emergency?) with lightweight construction, you can really zip which is always fun to do in summer with the windows opened all the way.
In fact, I'm beginning to get anxious to go on the PCC fan trip taking place this Sunday... Here's hoping that the track construction on The Queensway is in progress on Sunday so we don't have to get dragged out all the way on the obligitory Doyle Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwnnnng Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaynch (Long Branch) run because Long Branch takes a LONG time.
-Robert King
For those of you who want to know when the last PCC ran in regular, revenue service - last day was Oct 31, 1956, on the B35 Church Ave. and the B50 McDonald Ave. routes. A third line that also used PCCs, B68 Coney Island Ave., was converted to bus in Nov. 1955.
It takes 7-8 minutes for trains to cross the bridge, right? That's 8 minutes the MTA has a captive audience, and 100% of the people on board will be affected. How about preparing 8 minute long speaches for conductors to administer while trains cross the bridge? Have specific speeches for whatever line / direction you're on, for example if the train is a D travelling from Manhattan to Brooklyn give very specific information on what changes were to occur for customers travelling on that line in that direction.
What do you think?
Or perhaps in deference to standards elsewhere when people are travelling in a tube above ground, a modification of duty ... in between working the timers:
"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard the Q Broadway Express, the no smoking lights have been extinquished ... we'll be reaching a cruising altitude of 135 feet. If you look out the windows on the left side of the cabin, you'll see the famous Brooklyn Bridge, opened in 1883 and down below, the East River. For those of you on the right side of the car, if you look far to the other side of the bridge, you'll note the Williamsburg bridge in the distance. We will now be beginning our descent into Manhattan ... yada yada ..."
If only the cars were equipped with full color displays, 8 minutes would also be sufficient time to run a short film or cartoon.
He could punctuate that with, "Prior to 1967, the track we are on now was tied into the Nassau Loop, and our next stop would have been Chambers St."
Maybe they could just repeat the same few sentences in a few dozen languages? even then I bet you'll have plenty of confused people.
...and that's what i like about hitching a ride on anything through 63rd street tube on the weekends - if you're coming from 36st into 21st, you'll have at least 3 or 4 people per car run over to a map with a look of mixed confusion and horror on their faces, despite the announcements on where the train is going. I need to bring my camera along and catch some of their facial expressions. you'd think after that line being somewhat open the last few months peope whould ahve at least a vague clue what was up...
bottom line: people are idiots, bring on the chaos!
Us railfans are going to be GODS come July 22nd. Prepare to dispense knowledge!
Dan
For a nominal fee, i might. =)
Ya, we should make t-shirts that say, in 5 languages, "I don't work for the MTA, but for $3 I'll help you get to where you're going."
Personally I think that is a good idea.As far as the reroutes go I think they are stupid. Instead of two 6 avenue shuttles just send the B train to 2 avenue and the D train to Grand street. That would be less confusing than two shuttles in addition to B/D split services
Switch the B and D and you have a plan. The B will have less TPH than the D. I think the B becomes 6 TPH and the D becomes 8 TPH, or something close to that.
Was the A train going to be rerouted to Brighton? What was going to 8th ave express, and would it still be the Fulton st line. im kind of fuzzy about it so can someone please explain it.
From the press release accompanying 1991 SERVICE CAPACITY PLAN, issued by NYC Transit:
Routes: A,B,C,D,Q
Lines: Central Park West, Concourse, Washington Heights, 63rd Street
Time: Weekdays, Saturdays and Sundays
Proposal:
Central Park West service would be reduced from four routes to three on weekdays and three to two routes on weekends. Express service would be provided by the "Q" from 207th Street to the 6th Avenue line and the "D" from 205th Stret to 6th Avenue. Local service would be provided by the 8th Avenue "A" from 168th Street to Euclid Avenue. the "A" woudl be extended to 207th Street evenings, nights, and weekends when the "Q" does not operate. The "B" would replace the "Q" to 21st Street/Queensbridge. The "D" would provide local service in the Bronx at all times.
Routes: A,C,H
Line: 8th Avenue/Fulton Street/Rockaways
Time: Weekdays, Saturdays and Sundays
Proposal:
In conjunction with the changes in Central Park West service, during rush hours, the "H" would provide three-way split service from Lefferts Boulevard, Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park to the FUlton Stret and 8th Aveneu express lines to 34th Street/8th avenue, replacing "A" express sericde and "C" service to Rockaway Park. The Rockaway Park "H" would operate every 20 minutes, with published timetables available. During non-peak periods, the "H" would oprate to Lefferts Boulevard and Far Rockaway, with connecting rail shuttle service between Beach 67th Street and Rockway (sic) Park. The "A" would provide 8th Avenue and Fulton Street local service to Euclid Avenue. During night hours, the "A" would operate from Far Rockaway via Fulton Street and 8th Avenue local lines to 207th Street. Rail shuttle service would be provided between Rockaway Boulevard and Lefferts Boulevard, and between Beach 67th Street and Rockaway Park.
--------------------------------------------------
As I recall (and I was in NYCT(A) Customer Services at the time and had to answer literally HUNDREDS of letters on the subject), the chief objection to this service plan came from people in upper Manhattan who were upset that their MAIN SERVICE WAS BEING RELABELED "Q"!!!!! They kept citing the Billy Strayhorn song (performed most famously by Duke Ellington), "Take the 'A' Train." Funny thing is, if NYCT(A) had called the 207th Street-6th Avenue-Brighton service "A" instead of "Q", probably nobody would have said a word and the plan would have gone through unchallenged!
David
Thank you.From what this says,the TA wanted to spilt the A line in half and replace it with the Q train. ok the idea not bad, butto replace the A complety with the Q,get ride of the C altogether and replace that with the A,and make the H the 8th ave express along fulton street to 34th st doesnt make much since to me. They could have ran a 6th ave express from 207th st to Far rockaway by way of the juntion[s] at west 4th st or Jay st. One of the services [Lefferts/Far-roc/Roc-Park or Euild]could use a difernt letter code such as[H or K or even C],run one through the Rutgers st tunnel and ride shotgun with the F until West 4th st or 59 TH.Like i said the idea was in the right place but the A in Brighton....NAHHHHHH!!! Thanks for the info......
This may be off the beaten track, but . . . last night, for some reason or another, the Brooklyn-bound B train took a detour of sorts. I know – I got on the B at Spring Street and got off at Jay Street-Borough Hall; it was being re-routed to the F Culver route on that occasion.
[As I recall..., the chief objection to this service plan came from people in upper Manhattan who were upset that their MAIN SERVICE WAS BEING RELABELED "Q"!!!!! They kept citing the Billy Strayhorn song (performed most famously by Duke Ellington), "Take the 'A' Train."]
The Q as weekday-only express was one of two main complaints. The second argument was that a particular line in the song - "You'll get to Harlem in a hurry" - was socially (if not legally) binding on Transit, and constituted an obligation to keep the A as an express service. (Naturlly, they wouldn't have minded a Q express in addition to the A express!)
-----
[Funny thing is, if NYCT(A) had called the 207th Street-6th Avenue-Brighton service "A" instead of "Q", probably nobody would have said a word and the plan would have gone through unchallenged!]
Actually, the proposal WAS reworded to that effect in response to the Ellington/Strayhorn complaints: the weekday-only Q express became the A, while the full-time A local became the C. Of course, all of that became water under the Manhattan Bridge anyway.
The R-10s could promise "You'll get to Harlem in a hurry", that's for sure. Today, it's more like, "You'll get to Harlem eventually."
While it's funny that the proposed re-labeling may have killed an otherwise doable plan, it WOULD have been very confusing.
This plan is similar to the routings actually used when an asbestos covered pipe burst somewhere around 42nd or 50th on the A.
Q ran from 207th to Brighton using R38s, the A ran from 34th to queens, E ran down 6th Ave to WTC. 23rd, 42nd and 50th and 8th and 57 & 6th were closed.
while on the nostalgia trip on fathers day a woman took a few pictures of me and my friend and then came up and introduced herself as a ny times employee. she took down our names and said the pictures might be used for an article in the weekend times about the nostalgia trip. i forgot to check these past 2 weekends to see if there was an article about the trip. did anyone see if there was?
thanks,
tim
there was an article on june 29th...
here's a link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/29/living/29TRAI.html?searchpv=nytToday
pretty good article. my only complaint is that i just wish there were more pictures, not that they would have come out that well since the weather was so crappy that day.
Hey guys - that reporter interviewed ME! 8th paragraph in the first section, and it was a nice surprise!
There was a nice article in the N.Y. Times on Friday, June 29, 2001. The article was by Robert Boynton about the Nostalgia train and the Transit Museum.
Bill "Newkirk"
Anybody know where tomorrow's Queensbridge shuttle will be running? (The Manhattan end, that is.) 34 via BMT? 34 via IND? 57 via BMT? Something else entirely? There's no indication on the GO page.
According to the NYCT July 4th service plan- 34th St. BMT
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Thanks -- as I suspected. R-32's, I take it. I think I'll ride it back and forth tomorrow -- this may be the last Queensbridge-BMT shuttle ever (I know, who cares? -- but why not?).
Did you get this information from some public source that I'm unaware of?
I believe that there is an emergency GO in effect between 10 am and 4 pm where there will be a single track shuttle between Queensbridge and 57/7. After 4 pm, regular shuttle service will resume.
Rats. I read your post too quickly this morning and didn't notice that the shutlte would only run as far south as 57. I enjoy wrong-railing when I have the chance, so I went to the BMT platform at 42 and waited and waited and waited. Eventually I figured out what was happening and took an N to 57, but I think I just missed the shuttle, so after another ten minutes of waiting I continued on an R to Lex and took a (cold!) 4 to Borough Hall in time to meet everyone. Oh well.
No- it was in an internal publication.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Hello. I lived in Brooklyn over 30 years ago, in Flatbush, and I'm going to be visiting NY in August. Does anyone know how safe it would be for my boyfriend and me to take the D train from the city down to Newkirk Ave. in Brooklyn these days?
Thanks for your advice.
Ellen
No worries mon. Relax an enjoy de ride.
"
wonder how many people on this board have never ridden on a BMT Broadway Express via the Manhattan Bridge? You're right - it will certainly be a new experience for them."
If you're visiting in August, that should be after the Manhattan Bridge flip in which the Brighton and West End regress to pre-Chrysite St.
There should be two services to Newkirk Ave, circle (Q) local and diamond express. The (D)s will only go as far as 34th St and 6th Ave.
Bill "Newkirk"
Your ride on the D train will be absolutely safe, no problems. I'd recommend the Q train, though. You'll get a better express ride.
As for saftey around the station, I don't know that area of Brooklyn.
Dan
You'll be quite safe. Most of Brooklyn is really very good, and the D in particular offers no problems.
Don't forget to visit Coney Island at least once. The Cyclone roller-coaster awaits, and the aquarium has some great exhibits and shows!
Ellen,
The Subway ride and area is quite safe, however you will find the matrix of the people has changed from Jewish/American to Haitian/Jamaican descent. Also many of Pakistani descent around Coney Island/Newkirk/Foster Avenues, but all the the old wonderful mansions and homes along Argyle, Malbourough and Albemarle are still there. :)
Ditto on all points made by my colleagues. When I visited New York in March, I took the Q to Sheepshead Bay. Express at its best. And don't let anyone tell you it is not safe. I have never had any trouble riding the subway. Most of the time I have struck up conversations with people and they have been friendly in return. The only blemish was when I went railfanning on April 1 with some of my buddies on this site, and the motorman on the Sea Beach wouldn't shake hands with me. That was the first time that happened, but I chalked that off to his stupidity. Have a great trip.
As long as you don't dress like a tourist from Iowa, you'll be safe. The area is such a mix you won't otherwise stand out
Iforgot to ask is HOW this car came here from the 3 line and WHY this car is here once again the car # is 2155.
I'm sure it is there to qualify the car equipment workers on how to maintain the R62A. Most of the barn guys know Redbirds and Redbirds only since it is a high seniority facility.
Oh Noooooooo is right. Car #2155 is NOT AT CORONA YARD. That is unless car #2155 has an evil twin. As of now, car #2155 is alive, well, assigned to Livonia and in service on the #3 line. The car you saw is most likely EP012 although I'm at a loss to explain how YOU could confuse those two numbers.
my freind said that the car was there! i did not see it. it probably went back to coney island yard or it is inside the corona yard barn being fixed or somthing. he has 4 pictures of it but he does not have a scanner. i am going to see him today and check out the photos at the boardwalk today, also we are going to check again
Perhaps you didn't understand me. The car (#2155) is in service on the #3 line. It is not in Corona Barn, It did not go back to Coney Island. It is not "or something" anywhere. It is in service.
so why did it come over in the first place? and 1 car only?
I think what "Train Dude" is trying to say is:
R-62A 2155 WAS N-E-V-E-R AT CORONA!!!!!! Whomever claimed to have seen it made a mistake.
David
Although I'm pretty sure I was correct in maintaining that "Train Dude" was trying to say that R-62A 2155 was never in Corona Yard, he subsequently reported that he checked the computer and found that the car WAS in Corona Yard briefly, recently.
David
Before we have an all-out war here, let me explain what happened. When the first posting came out, I called a manager who shall remain nameless at Corona Yd. He reported that there were no R-62As at Corona. I checked the computer and car #2155 was listed as "Revenue Active" @ Livonia Yard - meaning it was in service or available for service. However, because of the adamant stance by the posters who insisted that they had a picture of it, I checked further. The car history indicated that, indeed, car #2155 was briefly out of service in Corona Yard for 'amenities'. I spoke to another manager and he said he heard it was in the yard but they didn't know why. Hmmmmmm.
In fairness - the VacTrak was in my yard today and I didn't know it until I looked at the yard map.
ok so if indeed an r62a car was at corona, why did it leave? why didn't they leave it and bring more so we can start reciving them?
And yesterday I rode on R-1 car #123. The strangest thing was,
it was making up the 11th car on a train on the Flushing line!
It must have been part of a test to see how the TA will deal with
the otherwise intractable problem of transverse cabs. And don't
start arguing with me about platform widths, because I know what
I saw, just like last year when I saw a GG1 filling in for the
R127 garbage motors.
ROTFLMAO
And yesterday I rode on R-1 car #123...
You sure that wasn't Orion V #123? :)
Heh. Musta been a hell of a ride ... how'd you avoid all the splinters coming in the windows as it blew past the stations? (or have they replaced all the platforms with steel yet?) And yeah, Them GG1's are a whole lot easier on the El steel than those pesky redboids. :)
??????? an r-1 ?? dude !!! please give me some info on this please !!
Jiminy Christmas, salamallah, can't you figger out when somebody's pulling your chain?
The R-1's went to the torch long before the Web was let loose from the Gov't and the Universities.
then why did he say he saw a r-1 rollin' on the flushing line ?? ( by the way there is no xmas during the month of july ) lol !!!
OH WAIT A MINUTE ........................ he was only joking ..........geeeeeezzz done in again by the train dude !!!
He is the expert !! not me !!! ( sigh ) ..........oh well ......LOL !!!
Sorry salaam but I can't take credit for the humorous post. The post that you took so seriously came from Jeff H. - who clearly has a keener sense of humor than I do.
And it crossed the Queensboro Bridge, too, right??
--Mark
Happy 225th birthday from Chicago!
Is the bus/A-train still the best public transport way for an enthusiast from JFK to Manhattan please ? Am arriving with the family (including two kids) late afternoon from the UK and staying at East 50th Street - it was a bit dodgy last time I did it late at night but presume ok around 6pm ?. Any info appreciated - I am also a new subscriber who uses the London Underground daily and visited LU's Acton Works large museum store last week so if anyone wants any info from over here let me know !
Yes, that's the best way for a rail enthusiast to get into the city. No, you needn't be concerned about the ride. You'll be fine. But do take some common precautions. Don't flash your money around; keep credit cards out of sight. Those represent common sense on the street and on the subway.
The Port Authority shuttle bus will pick you up from the front of the terminal and take you to the Howard Beach Station. Then you can take the A train in.
If you check the MTA website, www.mta.nyc.ny.us, you may find a bus to LIRR option as well (bus to Jamaica Station, then any Manhattan-bound train from there). But you'll still transfer to a subway to finish your trip. If the bus travels along the Van Wyck Expressway, you'll get a chance to inspect AirTrain up close, though you won't get to ride any of it until next year.
Welcome to New York. I hope your stay will be an enjoyable one.
Actually, there isn't much in the way of TA buses on the VanWyck. Except for one or two rush hour routes, IIRC, they stick to the local streets.
Yes, the ride is just fine. At 6:00, service will be frequent, since it's still rush hour, but you'll be traveling against the flow, so you'll have no trouble getting a seat.
To get to E. 50th Street, transfer across the platform at Jay Street to the F or at 42nd Street to the E, both of which go to 53rd and Lex (the exit at the front of the station leads to 3rd Avenue). (You could transfer at Broadway-Nassau to the 4/5 and at 42nd to the 6, which goes to 51st and Lex, but the first transfer involves climbing stairs.) If you're going further east than 3rd, the 50th Street bus may be more to your liking -- transfer at 42nd to the C/E, go one more stop to 50th, and catch the M27 or M50 bus on 50th Street. As long as you pay for your initial subway ride by MetroCard, the transfer to the bus is free.
[If you're going further east than 3rd, the 50th Street bus may be more to your liking -- transfer at 42nd to the C/E, go one more stop to 50th, and catch the M27 or M50 bus on 50th Street. As long as you pay for your initial subway ride by MetroCard, the transfer to the bus is free. ]
The bus idea would be quite stupid. Not only could you walk faster, they only go to the 2nd Ave, a block away from the 53rd/Lex 3rd Ave exit.
Arti
Hey Arti, try disagreeing without being disagreeable.
He's coming from JFK. There's a chance he has luggage and doesn't want to walk more than necessary. (That's also why I recommended the E/F over the 4/5 to the 6.) 3rd to 2nd is a long block, and don't forget about the three short blocks from 53rd to 50th.
The bus wouldn't be the best choice if you had luggage, I'd say take a cab instead.
Arti
That all depends on how close the bus comes to one's destination. The last three times I used LaGuardia I used the M60/M104 combo, which drops me off across the street from my destination. Why spend tens of dollars on a cab when $1.50 for the bus will suffice?
As I said depends on the luggage. The buses don't have much accomodation for it. Cab from 8th Ave would be few $ and none of those issues would crop up.
[Why spend tens of dollars on a cab when $1.50 for the bus will suffice? ]
Sometimes I tend to believe that my time costs some money.
Arti
"[Why spend tens of dollars on a cab when $1.50 for the bus will suffice? ]
Sometimes I tend to believe that my time costs some money."
Yes. A mass transit ride does not always represent the best use of one's time. Of course, it would be nice if the cab didn't get stuck in the Queens Midtown Tunnel...
In nyc.transit there was a post about Glen Cove ferries, faster than LIRR. IMO an interesting transit alternative.
Arti
We seem to agree: it depends.
All we know is that the original poster asked here about the subway ride. He's gotten a variety of answers. Hopefully he'll take the advice that best fits his situation.
Actually I can't think of any hotels east of Lex, W that is.
Arti
He may be staying with friends or relatives.
Just take a cab.
(Just take a cab.)
I'll second that. And I work for the TA, use mass transit every day and whenever possible, and an enough of an environmentalist that I refuse to have air conditioning in my home. If the Airtrain was running and it was just you, I'd say take the Airtrain to Jamaica and transfer to the E. And rush hour, taking the A and avoiding traffic might make sense.
Midday, with four people, and arriving from overseas with extensive luggage? Take a cab. You can take transit all you like once you've checked into the hotel.
The subway is fine but the airport shuttle bus seems to take ages. It is a long and tiring journey especially for small children after a long flight. Great for us railfans if you get an R32.
Have a good trip
Simon
Swindon UK
Yes, the subway is fine when you are traveling alone, and wheeling a carry-on bag. But this guy is coming over from England sounds like he is going out of his way for a joy ride with what I assume will be heavy luggage.
What's mere luggage to a true and devoted Subfan! :0)
If your destination is E. 50th St, Manhattan.
Take the Q10 bus from JFK to Union Turnpike and
take the E or F to Lex/3rd Aves. It' s much faster.
But the ride from Howard Beach on the A is more interesting.
First take a look at:
http://torontotours.com/scheduledtours/schedule_city.htm
Now there's a choice of two different tours. Which one would you take if you could take one?
-Robert King
>>> Which one would you take if you could take one? <<<
A tough question which needs more information to answer. The trolley tour is going to be more limited, but how much do you want to ride the trolley? Can you ride a PCC trolley in Toronto without taking the tour? If so, I would opt for the bus tour and cheaper trolley riding later.
I have been to Toronto only as a tourist, so I have no direct knowledge of the present tours, but I find in going to a new city, I first take a commercial tour around the city and then return to the interesting places on my own.
Tom
The streetcar can go just about everywhere the bus goes except for Casa Loma - if they were to revise the tour a little bit. Maple Leaf Gardens, Chinatown, University of Toronto, and the College Park could easily be included in the tour at the very end. You can add a few other attractions like the Beach or the Don Jail, but then you're just getting a little too far out of the downtown area.
You can ride a PCC without taking a tour - but only on fan trips; PCC service iteslf ended on Friday, December 8th, 1995. Incidentally, last year when exactly five years passed since the end of PCC revenue service December 8th of 2000 was on a Friday just as it was in 1995. I tried and tried and tried quite a few times to get the Toronto Transportation Society to hold a short PCC fan trip on that evening with the highlight of it being recreating the very last run almost exactly - right down to having the same operator driving the streetcar albeit in a different PCC. Take a wild guess as to what the TTS administration's answer to that proposal was.
-Robert King
If that is the same trolley tour tour that we tried to take several years ago: Aren't reservations recommended?
No, this tour is new as of this summer. I don't know if they take reservations. The people offering it have information on their tours available in hotels - and definately at the Sheraton located at Queen and York as that's one of the pickup points.
-Robert King
I personally cant wait to get rid of the redbirds on the 7,there loud ,leaky,rusty,and most of them do have some serious doormotor problems.Plus when we get transverse cabs My sexlife will improve by a thousand percent.You guys have no idea how hard it is to get a woman in a redbird cab.
"Silverbirds"? Did we just invent a new catchy name? Not bad, really!
Chuck Greene
I'm sure there are some here who will re-dub them "silverfish" in anticipation of their future fate. :)
Selkirk: That's beautiful! -"Silverfish"
Chuck Greene
Heh. Part of upstate living, "Think ahead" ... and we stomp on those fishies all the time. That is when we don't come down to the city to shoot some clams. :)
You shoot clams? Isn't that dangerous? I mean, the clams might get hurt!
Dan
The clams can't be happy ALL the time. Actually, "let's go shoot some clams" is a line from a Barney Miller episode - the one with the brownies where Yamata says "mushi mushi" ... just funnin' for the folks. Somebody's gotta be a cutup here. :)
yes a work car lol !! ( so much for your fish & clams ).....lol !!
If you want to see the real deal, I now have 38 redfins sitting on 26A, 26B and 26C track in Concourse yard, just waiting for their turn to go swimming.
GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....
GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....
GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....
GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....
& pollute the ocean instead of recycling! lol !! ( how bout' that dude ) ???
Why not just take her home? Don't you (and your girlfriends) like bathtubs and beds?
>>> Why not just take her home? <<<
Now you are talking about a long term relationship, I don't think Union Square tells them where he lives.
Tom
12 hours can be a long time...a little longer than the trip across the Manny B...
I suspect that it's not the cab that's the primary factor in your sexlife or the lack of it. If you can pick the 7, you can pick the 4 and have all the transverse cabs you want. It is written that a transverse cab will not change the essence of a man.
True ... but it does CONTAIN it a bit. :)
Hahahaha ... yeah, at least B division had a bit more room and the dropdown bench had enough space for another pair of legs. :)
It's ALL rather easy, chap... you just have
to know....... THE SECRET!!!!
uh yea, trains don't impress girls as much as railfans would like them to.
Yeah, it must be like "come in here and I'll show you my speedometer."
You guys, the women on the 7 are the best because of the different backroounds.I have met Irish ,colombians,mexicans and Korean. And someof them find it a thrill to have a brief sexual encounter on the 7.It happens more than you think on all lines .Rember women see the patch thats say MTA as ATM
Heh. Oh the stories I could tell from my days as a conductor on the D train back in the "hippie chick" days ... alas, this is a family board and nobody really cares anyway. Once I got my promotion and moved up front though, all that stopped. But I got my yayas more often than folks'd believe and it was fun. And no, NEVER on duty - only when deadheading. After all, a trip from Stillwell off duty every evening to 205th was a long haul with nothing to do. Most "customers" at worst only do HALF the ride a crew does ... our former President knows how that all works. Fortunately, he wasn't issued a church key. :)
Or a butt plug.:-) Oops, that's right, he used a cigar.
If the cigar was wired properly, it could do the electric brake. Habana's are JUST the right size. :)
haBanas?
Peace,
ANDEE
You don't go to Montreal often, do ya? That's how the capitol of Cuba is spelled and Cuban cigars are QUITE legal up there - hell, the duty free shops and US Customs let you bring them back too ... you can buy them right AT the border (wink-wink-nudge-nudge) ... hell, while you're waiting for the doggies to go over your chariot, might as well go light up some Cubans. :)
Anybody's sexlife can improve a thousand percent, as long as they never again mention "transverse cabs"
Too bad that guy that wrote "Mallrats" didn't come from NYC - the dialog might go like this:
"I'm gunna screw your ex in a very uncomfortable position"
"where? the cab of a redbird?"
I have ridden those old Redbirds that have dominated the "7" line for years. I would agree with you that they are worn out at this point. I'm sure that you won't miss the manually operated windshield wipers which makes things interesting in sloppy weather. It is also a delight when the lights go out momentarily when the cars go past a gap in the third rail. The only thing that the "Silverbirds" won't solve is the foul odor created by the oil leak somewhere in Manhattan which I believe has permeated all of the cars that are used on the "7" line.
BMTJeff
I wondered if anyone has any idea of the chances of the "N" Sea Beach line returning to the the bridge once (actually "if")all the work is finished?
I'm assuming at that point, the West End W/B train would return to 6th Avenue, so there wouldn't be much Broadway Express service without the N. On the other hand, there wouldn't be much service to City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, and Whitehall with only the R running. What would then be the chance of the W running local from Astoria to Whitehall, as was, at one time planned (I think)?
The return of the Sea Beach Line (by the letter "N" or any other letter -- not that anyone's contemplating a change) to the Manhattan Bridge has always been part of the post-rehabilitation plan.
As for an Astoria-to-lower-Manhattan local service, well, they've got 3 years or so to think about it...
David
Bull@%&*(#$%^@!!!!!!! I don't ever expect that Sea Beach to get back on the bridge. All indications were that it would get such an assignment up until a year or so ago when the work was almost completed. Then some mastermind at the TA decided that two Brightons and some other new line would do service there while the Sea Beach was stuck in that damn Montague Tunnel. The Sea Beach on the Manhattan Bridge? I am not holding my breath.
At the risk of starting a flame war (which I hope this doesn't):
Decisions about train routings are made by NYC Transit, not by people who live 3,000 miles away and haven't lived here in well over 40 years. At the moment, those decisions are being tempered by capacity issues resulting from the continuing rehabilitation of the Manhattan bridge (by the NYC Department of Transportation via its contractors, NOT by NYC Transit).
Sea Beach via Bridge before 2003 (now 2004 due to delays in the rehabilitation) was NOT in the cards a year ago, two years ago, or even five years ago. If I am wrong, please state an OFFICIAL source for the facts that refute my statement.
David
If you don't want to start a flame war you might try to refrain from bringing this 3,000 miles and 40 years ago into it. People from all over the country have strong emotional attachments to New York's Subway, and for some it's is our most powerful attachment to the city.
For the record, I am not trying to make decisions since it is not in my province to do so, but I have a strong emotional feeling towards my favorite train ( as you and everyone else knows), and I have seen with my own eyes the decrepit look of the stations in Brooklyn and the way the line has been relegated to the scrap heap over the years. So if my pieces bother you, don;t read them. But, get this, I will always be a strong protector of my favorite line and will keep hoping for the day when it is given the respect that it once commanded. If that doesn't pass muster with you, then, as we say out her, tough tacos.
I recognize that "Sea Beach Fred" has a strong emotional attachment to the Sea Beach Line and his youth in New York City. Everyone's entitled to his or her cherished memories, and everyone's entitled to an opinion (and I'm hoping that "Sea Beach Fred" and my other occasional detractors will allow me mine on the rare occasions I choose to express them).
However, that doesn't excuse answering a FACTUAL posting with an expletive (albeit a modified version) and an expression of disbelief. I did not express an opinion; I stated a FACT, and I'll state it here again: It has ALWAYS been in NYCT's plans for Sea Beach service to return to the Manhattan Bridge once the rehabilitation project is completed. And again: if anyone has cold, hard evidence to refute my FACTUAL claim, please present it here and now. I'm not 3,000 miles away from the situation; I work within a few feet of the people who plan subway service and talk to them about it quite frequently.
I bear no ill will toward "Sea Beach Fred" and hope he will take this series of postings in the spirit in which it is intended.
David
I, for one, find the facts on ridership that you posted some time ago extremely interesting, and enjoy reading the other factual material that you have posted. Keep it up, please.
Like #4 Sea Beach Fred, I have my favorites, too. But the subway must be run according to financial considerations. No. 1 on my wish list (no doubt among the other Brighton fans) for the subway is that I hope that ridership increases enough to make financially feasible the restoration of Brighton Express service on weekends.
I agree, weekend brighton express service is necessary. Summer weekends, people have their pick of four long rides to Coney Island. The Brighton express would give people a fast option.
Read the GO announcements! On weekends, there's often express service in one direction on either the B or the N. That's invariably the fastest way to or from Coney Island, unless the train is subsequently held because it's gotten ahead of schedule (as if it takes a rocket scientist to realize that the schedules should be adjusted for GO's).
In one direction. Once I get there, it's a long ride back (or vice versa).
I can think of one wonderful weekend where there was a southbound Brighton express and a northbound Sea Beach express. That was it.
Another weekend had Brighton, (part of the) Culver, and Sea Beach express all in the same direction.
Nobody reads G.O. notices for regular reasons, much less to figure out if there's a faster way to CI.
Nobody reads G.O. notices for regular reasons, much less to figure out if there's a faster way to CI.
We do! (I do, at least.)
And then my plans are thwarted by a red signal at 8th Avenue.
My money's on the following scenario:
B & D: Via 6th Ave express, north side on bridge, West end or Brighton, respectively.
N: via Broadway express, south side bridge, Sea Beach.
Q: From 57/7th (or possibly Queens via 63rd ST, when equipment becomes available) via Broadway express, south side bridge, Brighton express.
W: From Ditmars to Whitehall, rush hours only, via Broadway local (this was the original intention of the W line).
Anyone care to add to this, feel free.
That sounds pretty good.
Oh it sounds pretty good allright----good to everybody except those who decide the question. And the N is still stuck in lower Manhattan.
A scaled down version of the fully open plan was released a few years ago, and differed with the N going over the bridge peak direction from/to Brooklyn only (but still express both ways in Manhattan) rush hours. That way, Sea Beach would have its bridge service, and Astoria would still have lower Manhattan without having to have a W. This was when the TA was still in service cut mode.
So it basically depends on how the money is when the Bridge is finished. Also, there is supposed to be major hearings and stuff to determine the final service plan when all the work is finished.
This seems to me also to be the most logical scenario. Perhaps minor modifications would be having the N run local in Manhattan downtown AM, uptown PM, local all the way evenings, nights and weekends; Q extended to Jamaica, exp. all the way, rush hours (replacing half of the F trains out there); Z extended via Brighton local to Coney Island, rush hours; if ridership continues to increase, Q runs weekends.
The last time the Manhattan Bridge had four tracks Brooklyn had more service. You had the N and Q on the south side, the B and D on the north side, and the R and M in the tunnel. BUT you also had more service running on Broad Street and terminating at Chambers, if I read my map right.
They'll almost certainly want a balanced load on the bridge, and that means B/D on one side and N/Q on the other. The only change I could see is to move the B over to the Brighton, and make the Q a W on the West End, to minimize switching. Both the Sea Beach and West End would bypass DeKalb.
To increase service to Lower Manhattan via tunnel, and service on the Brighton, it would be nice if they extended the Z out to the Brighton during rush hours. That would be a service increase, so they'd have to have more cars, but at least it would be eight car trainsets.
"The B over to the Brighton, and make the Q a W on the West End." True, this would minimize switching. But it would perpetuate the loss of service on the Brighton that the MB problems caused. I believe that the Brighton should have both a 6th Av. Exp. service (D) and a Broadway Exp. service (Q), 16/5 at least. I do agree with you that the Z should be extended rush hours as Brighton local to provide service downtown. I am also for the suggestion of another subtalker that the Q Broadway Exp. should be extended to Jamaica, express all the way, rush hours (replacing half of the Fs out there), all this if ever both sides of the MB are open.
It would be nice if the MTA brought back the old World's Fair cars for the #7 line instead of replacing the Redbirds with those silver whatdoyoucallem cars. It won't happen of course and that's a shame.
E_DOG
Oh, those Bluebirds. ;-(
If it were the BMT Bluebirds we'd have something to celebrate!!
Got news for you-those cars never left.
I WOULD like to see at least one train repainted into the World's Fair scheme.
-Hank
Totally agree!
I just got back from shea, his car is still there although R 33s 9331 is about 5 feet in front of it. Also 9322 is coupled to 9331 NOW IS A CHANCEto get some pics of this car while its at corona yard. This car may not be here for long. Hence its only 1 car.
It may be that 9331 and 9322 are coupled because the 11th car is being removed from service, as it has been 3 out of the last 4 years on the #7 line from July 4 - Labor day weekend.
Cars 9307-9345 are unbearable in the summer - and few people sit in them, even at rush hour.
Then again, I could be way off base on this.
I hope the A/C in these cars (R62A) are working. Many a day when I get on the #1 and the car is so humid - its dripping. No Working A/C. Now I know #2155 is not a #1 car but it used to be.
flx 7595
The R-33 singles aren't as bad as cars with broken a/c. The R-33's have pretty powerful fans that keep the air circulating, and nobody's going to complain that the windows are open. (A C/R on the 6 once closed the window I had opened a few minutes earlier in a car with broken a/c and insisted that I suffer or give up my seat and move to the next car.)
Today was by no means very hot, but I rode in one of those R-33's on the 7 for a few stops and I was perfectly comfortable.
"Cars 9307-9345 are unbearable in the summer - and few people sit in them, even at rush hour"
I was on the #7 line yesterday (7/4) and rode from Times Sq. to Woodside. I entered and sat down in a single that had one passenger. all vent windows were closed as was end doors. I opened all the vent windows and had a seat. No one got on until 40-Lowery. I guess people must know which car is the hotnone and probably see open vent windows. ON the ride from Woodside back to Times Sq. I rode #9307. Could this be the last summer of the R-33 singles (revenue service) ?
Bill "Newkirk"
will they have that little narrow window at the end and front of the car??? and when will more come?
All R62's and R62A's will have narrow windows at the locations you have mentioned. I saw a photo of an R62 Flushing line train for test service back in 1980, and I'm not sure if they'll be used for the 7 or if the TA will order new cars.
The R62(A) fleet will not need to be replaced until their full life spans have been elapsed. (approx. until the year 2020)
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
Tomorrow, Friday July 6th will be the alst day that they'll EVER see service on the 7 as this weekend they will be cut to 10 cars. Get your pics and riding while you can now before they're all gone.
R33#9335Gary
what u mean by that?? instead of 11 cars they are going to use 10 cars?
by the way, its only 1 car. this could mean somthing else like they can use that car as a work car. when are more coming? 1 does not mean anything
Exactly! 10 car service is effective on Saturday July 7 12 Midnight.
R36#9547Gary
Won't they come back around Labor day?
Are they going to replace all the Redbirds by then?
are they all going to come and replace the deadbirds by labor day or should we still wait?
Um... 11 car trains were running today. I counted 10 cars over the weekend, though. Are the singles only being pulled out for weekends, or is this going to be a slow process?
There will be NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 10 car service this summer also you did NOT see 10 car service this weekend due to 2 GOs
OK... I counted 10 while going by on the Van Wyck, so I could easily be mistaken :)
I have to agree, working at Queens Plaza I've seen some 10 car sets, the R33 mising from its third car Flushing position. Yes there are more 11 car sets but I've seen a few 10 car's.
Maybe they're conducting a test on crowd levels, running a few short trains to see if it's bearable. Maybe they scrapped too many singles already and have a shortage.
when are more coming???? by the way, if the 62a's are in the 7, will they have the little narrow windows at the end and front of each car??
Yesterday I saw R36 9478 and others lay up at Concourse Yard. Does that mean they will go back to the Flushing line?
Chaohwa
This question is about as dumb as a Shuttle going from 111 Street to 125 Street...(If the right people read this, they'll get a chuckle...)
IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN
Why the hell would redbirds go to Concourse only to go back to Flushing? AREN'T WE TRYING TO GET RID OF THEM? Maybe if you research before you post, we wouldn't have idiotic questions like your's. By the way, in response, IT'S GETTING STRIPPED DOWN IN PREP FOR SCRAP, OR ITS GOING TO BE SCRAPPED... Damn, I have respect for you and your site, but this was completely DUMB and STUPID....
Sorry for all the smart people here, I didn't mean to go all out...
Clayton
FIZZLE...FIZZLE...FIZZLE...........SPAT!
The Sounds of My Nerves Snapping at Dumb Post
Clayton, this is become the norm around here nowadays......Post without thouhgt, you saw that post Q46 left about blowing past Gun Hill at high speed and seeing 7 buses with no fareboxes on his way to New Rochelle on a Bee Line Bus..YIKES!!!!!!!
And I'm chuckling something bad right now :o) LMFAO!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
It's become 'the norm' because in each and all our
quests to "know it all" we have turned to one another
to seek a form of 'information' and 'sub-education'
whereas if we were to querie these same questions
to any common folk, we'd likely be prescribed a
stay at Alcatraz.... or worse-- WCW.
Also, to an out-of-town fellow, as is our
MD. lensman Chao-Hwa, seeing redbirds in a foreign yard
may cause a reason for headscratch, whereas we in-towners
have seen these placements daily and have come to view it
as a (currently) natural occurence...whereas to others
it may be 'odd' or 'puzzling'.
Cheers!
First of all, I am not dumb enough to think a shuttle to go from 111st Street to 125th Street.
Second, before I went to NYC, I have been busy doing research for two weeks. I don't have time to read EVERY POST here!!!
I may ask what you think is a dumb question. However, I DO NOT APPRECIATE your knee-jerk reaction.
Chaohwa
One more thing. For my own track record I don't make any outragous statements. I just asked a question and got attacked liked this?
I am very angry at you now.
Chaohwa
Chao-Hwa asked a good question. Why wouldn't the R-36s go back to Flushing? Most cars that have to travel to/from the Flushing Line come through there anyway.
But to answer Chao-Hwa's question the Redbirds here are in dead storage and they haven't been stripped.
That's what was mentioned in previous posts.
-Stef
If that's true about the redbirds in storage only at Concourse except for the 8 that were stripped and brought over from 207yd., then they should be taken off the redbird scrap list on this site. Found another 2 today at 207 yd that are stripped #9544-45. Finally found that date when I had first seen 9487-87 stripped at 207 yd. It was 3/25/01.
Grimace, 9486 and 87 were in the shop since early February. I know because I was in training at the facility for station agent.
As for the cars at Concourse, the webmaster could make note of the fact that they haven't been stripped, but stored servicable, for now at least..... If I'm wrong for saying this, someone correct me, but those cars at Concourse Yard haven't been gutted yet.
-Stef
How much ya wanna bet that Train Dude's stashing them away for the day Salaamallah drops by with the flatbed? :)
Don't get me started on this one..... He may as well build his own railroad. I am now rolling on the floor and laughing my ass off.
-Stef
Give until it hurts. :)
?? I will be the one who will bet the last LOL when you see all of those new r-142 scrap-ready-made-junkers all breakin' down !!
Well, Stan Fischler had the story in his first book on the subways on how the last remaining Low Vs were saved by shuttling them around the system and out of the way of the scrap lines, maybe he's planning the 21st century version of this effort for six to 10 Redbirds :-)
I would agree with that. It would seem unlikely that every last Redbird is going to bite the dust. Someone could hide them at one of the yards to keep prying eyes away....
-Stef
hey! ! i saw your nastly little post !
& it didnt make any sense either !
Howdy, guy ... wasn't intended to be nasty ... I was joking that the redbirds in good condition might have been stashed away in hopes that you might show up with a flatbed truck, haul them out to Californy and give them a good home that wasn't too moist. Was funnin' for the folks. I live upstate, not a mean bone in the bod ...
You'll have to forgive salaam. These are truly dark days for him. The reality is that on the current Car inspector pick that begins on July 15th, there are many jobs dedicated to stripping the redbirds of usable parts before they become part of the subterrainian landscape.
BTW: Those of us who have true compassion should be sending salaam an E-sympathy card with an E-prescription for Prozac
Aw c'mon, guy ... cut the guy some slack ... get his address and we'll chip in to buy him a CHRISTMAS present. :)
Will there be the obligatory contribution of controller and brakestand to the Heypaul museum? At least a wiper? Alms for the poor? Spare handles? Roll curtains? Betcha the "M" could raise a few bucks selling toys to the needy railfans. And a storm door ... well, maybe "we are 13" could auction a few ...
I checked them out tonight after laying up. Everything is servicable.
ChaoHwa asked a good question: 9478 and up were on the 7 once before and they could've possibly went back there. I was thinking that they were going to go back too. I never would've thought that cars 9526-9557 were going to come to the 7 instead of 9478-9523. If anything besides 9526-9557 would come to the 7, 9478-9523 would've.
Also heard that the 7 will be the last line in NYC to have RedBirds operating. It will take the TA about a year or so to scrap every single 1 from service. And the way the R142s have been acting up with glitches and whatnot, they may still need them as standbys.
R36#9361Gary
yes .........a lot of standbys to be replaced with new breakdown scrap-ready-junkers !! Lol !!
I had posted about a week ago 28 Redbirds were at Concourse Yard. They will be the first to run on the DJL line.
DJL, What the hell is the DJL?
T.
Let's not get nasty here. Almost all the questions are intelligent. Those of us who are NOT TA employees are jsut trying to broaden our knowledge.
Let's keep it friendly :)
D4000 and I aren't TA employees...
umm...'da junk line? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Davy Jones Locker - in other words, the ocean.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It means they're on their way to "swim with the fishes."
Thanks for the information. More appropriately, they are going to "live with the fishes." :)
Chaohwa
Ya know... R16 Lover put it nice and simple... thx R16!
Been watching too much of the Godfather on the 4th.
There is an R62A car at Corona, we do not need to do a day by day 62A synopsis, when we need to worry is when we see the first set...Then this ranting and raving will go on, but please, I don't want to see like 10 people posting about the same damn car!
Hey, did you know that there's an R62A at Corona?
An R-62A at Corona? No s*&t??
--Mark
Hold tha' phones!!!
Quick 'ma, bring the kids!
What was that you said? An R-26 at Corona?
An R62A at Corona?
REPENT!!!! The world is coming to an end!!!!
What did you say, an R142 at Coney Islansd Yard.
Robert
I know a lot of this thread was a goof, but the initial posts leads me to believe that you're "worrying" about having R62A's on the 7 line as if that's a bad thing. I like riding those trains. I rode them on the 3 when I was up there last week and rode them every day on the 4 between Wall St and Mosholu Pkwy. and thought they were comfortable,clean and lightning quick. They hadn't changed 10 years later. Was that just humorous sarcasm or is there something against the R62's?
>>>I know a lot of this thread was a goof, ....<<<
Don't be too sure of that.
Peace,
ANDEE
I really like the R62A, and I'm thrilled that they're comming to the (7). The 62/62A is probably my favorite car class.
Imagine: A ride on the (7) with a good air conditioner and decent announcements and without the jerky, swaying motion, the jarring brake action, or the screeching!
It's comming....
:-) Andrew
ok, if the 62a's are on the 7, will they have that little narroew window at the end and front of the car??? i think that makes it look nicer
Of course they'll still have the small window....what do you think they are going to with it? cover it up with plywood before they send the cars to the 7? GEEZ
Peace,
ANDEE
is that i got on an r62 and it did not have that little window
Not all of the redbirds are that bad. I rode several of the singles today and they ride pretty smooth for cars that are nearly 40 years old. Nonetheless, A/C is A/C and I'll be overjoyed to see the R-62s on the 7.
Dan
I was on a redbird this evening on the 4 going uptown.
And?
Come on, we're all waiting for the punchline Mike. What was your feeling about it, if any? The suspense is killing all of us.
Damn, I'll treat you like an out of towner, they run semi-frequently, maybe 4 or 5 sets running daily...
*Uses left hand to stop right hand from fetching knife...*
Clayton...
Redbirds are somewhat common oc the No. 4 line in my experience.
BMTJeff
I was on an absolutely frigid R-62 on the 4 early this afternoon (en route to the buses). Is the a/c on the R-62 more powerful than on the R-62A or was I just lucky? (Lucky? Nah, couldn't be. If I were lucky we wouldn't have gotten stuck at 14th due to problems with the gap fillers.)
They don't call the R62's "Greased Iceboxes" for nothing.
All of the 62s have excellent A/C. When the A/C is operating, it's the best in the system, to the point where it can be too cold in the cars sometimes. Just like the Queens Surface Orion Vs--when their A/C is on full blast (I think that's the only setting) you had better hope you're properly dressed because if you're not you're liable to catch cold.
Dan
Several recent right-of-way photos of the under-construction Trenton-Camden light rail line have been posted for the enjoyment of both of you who are interested.
Updated photos
As I predicted the SJLR project did indeed cause the loss of the 4 PRR Dwarfs, the PRR high signal, the 3 US&S electro-penumatic switches and the Conrail style propane burner point heaters. To add insult to injury the signals were replaced by Safetrain dwarf signals with GRS electric switches. (Didn't I head that US&S won the SJLR signaling contract?)
CP-HATCH presents an interesting problem for the SJLR project. Here is the current layout.
1------------4
............/
2------------5
........../
3-----
1 is the Conrail Palmyra industrial track, 2 is the future SJLR track and 3 is the Fish House Branch to CP-JERSEY and then on to Pennsylvania via the Delair bridge. 4 and 5 are the tracks to Pavonia yard in Camden. Trains going between 4/5 and 3 are the primary freight route into South Jersey and unlike the route the SJLR is taking any service disruption would be a disaster. The big question is hot to route the SJLR through the interlocking.
Well the future plan will be something like this.
........----------6
......./
1-----------------4
..../......../
2-----------------5
............/
3------
With 6 being a new dedicated SJLR track. The new CP-HATCH will be divided into two sub-interlockings so that Light Rail and Railroad can remain seperate. Chuchubob sent me a pic that he took inside the relay hut and you can see the emergency manual interlocking control is set up for this future layout. This does limit access to the Palmyra Industrial track (which connects to the Pemberton Industrial Track), but this can be reached with a reverse move up the Fish House Branch.
CP-HATCH is controled from the Pavonia Yard office and the new CP-HATCH is getting a microwave connection to said office for the new signal control. This will allow the old catenary poles to be town down (BOOOO! :( ) for the SJLR track, as their only current function is to carry the signaling wires. Hopefully they won't have to remove the old PRR three track signal bridge.
I was with Chuchubob when he took these pictures and he is free to post the ones I sent him, but if he can't I'll be able to post them myself on Sunday. As you can see there were some Conrail track workers installing the new GRS switches. They paid us absolutely no mind as we walked down the RoW and then took pictures of them working. That rates two thumbs up in my book.
PS: I'm with stupid -->
I was with Chuchubob when he took these pictures...
PS: I'm with stupid -->
Now you let the cat out of the bag!
I added the photos of the track diagram (illustrating your description) to my photos at Hatch.
Feel free to edit, correct, or amplify my text. (PS: I'm with stupid -->)
OK. Add a third. I'm interested too. Nice pix, etc.
(PS: I'm NOT with stupid -->)
The last engine on the NS lite engine move we caught going through CP-HATCH (a traditional cab Dash 8-C39 #8762) had a bit of grime on the short hood. Written in the grime ("Wash Me" style) was "I'm With Stupid -->" with the arrow pointing toward the cab. Chuchu has a pic of it. There was also "NO $" seen written on the fuel tank of PRR SD60M #6797.
I have a crystal clear shot of the side of the cab of Dash 8-C39 #8676 with the Southern designation C39-8, but my shot of #8762 is from an angle and the dirt writing doesn't show up.
Dash 8-C39's and C39-8's are different classes. It has nothing to do w/ the history of the loco.
C39-8 is pronounced "See thirty nine dash ate".
I think Dash 8-C39's and C39-8's are the same model.
Actually, it's Dash 8-39C. The NS designation is simply their own version, just like the Pennsy called locomotives by almost any name other than what the manufacturer called them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Both locomotives had "D8-39C" painted in a lower corner. The photo of #8676 to which I referred has "SOU" painted beneath the number and more recently painted "C39-8" to the right of "SOU".
That's the shape of it... all of the designations mean the same thing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The SOU loco only had C39-8. I think that a Dash 8-39C is not the same as a C39-8, even if the only differance is that the Dash 8-39C is simply newer. Maybe Selkirk could tell us if something like a Dash 9-44C is the same as a C44-9.
Maybe Selkirk could tell us if something like a Dash 9-44C is the same as a C44-9.
I suspect a number of people could tell us they're the same. Big Ed, for example. Perhaps you could email Tuch. Or do an internet search. Or read Anon's posts.
I almost missed the invite here entirely ... no offense, but dielsel locos up where I live are as common as mosquitos and NJ happenings, well, no offense, but I never did much Jersey. Only thing that ever attracted me towards railfanning in Jersey was the PCC's from Newark "Penn Station" and of course, commuting to work for a while at a radio station in Jersey City back in the 70's ...
The "dash #" is the revision number of a loco, so I would tend to agree that a Dash 9-44C is the same as a C44-9 ... after all, it's a "-9" ... it's not like GM changes the Loco Impala, the Loco Citation, or the Loco Silverado every model year or builds "custom" like Alco did. GM killed off the others because you can have your loco in any color you like, so long as it's black. The "dash" revisions were largely power plant changes and some reshaping of the carbodies to reflect what GM/EMD was willing to change. :)
Thanks, Selkirk.
Anticipate an argument from Mike; once the woodpeckers nesting in his 'do get going, he can't hear himself think. :)
I don't mind an argument ... I'm WAY too old to think I have all the answers and ain't offended if I turn out to be wrong. I give the best answer I can based on what I know, which ain't everything. If I don't KNOW the answer, then count on a clever retort and diversion into humor. :)
I don't judge 'em, I just RUN 'em. Until the motors smoke. Heh.
The Dashes are made my GE, not GM. I always felt it was some sort of marketing gimic, but there might have been some small differance like an extended warrenty or something. My roster source is listing #8676 as a C39-8 and #8762 (I'm with stupid) as a C40-8 (I guess I mis remembered). Some people are sticklers about the Dash # system while others are more lax about it. As I guessed it is probably just a marketing ploy, but in the -8 series you will see locos that were sold as both C##-8 and Dash 8-##C. The question is weither or not those locos are the same. I also wonder if you can buy a loco sold under a C##-9 designation today or if everything has been dashized.
Here's the roster: http://www.eastrailnews.com/roster/new_norfolk.html
...in the -8 series you will see locos that were sold as both C##-8 and Dash 8-##C. The question is whtther or not those locos are the same.
Yes, they are the same. It's simply the nomenclature assigned them by the receiving railroads, which may have changed over time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoops! Sorry for getting Gm confused with Generous Erection there. Yep. Yer right. The EMD's are better built (to my own mind) but yeah, the GE's are the Alcos of today (without the customizations) ... though I still doubt there's much difference in where you place the model numbers unless you're worried about some rube in purchasing figuring out you also sold it to NS. :)
I was wondering if anyone could teel me why the Bronx portion fo the El was retained till 1973. While I'm glad it was (I've got those cool R12 pics on my hard drive), I was wondering if there had been a plan to link it to the proposed Second Avenue line (before they decided to hook it up to the Northern end of the White Plains Rd Line)?
Was there any appreciable opposition in 1972-3 to scrapping this last portion of the line? Was was TA's rationale? Was it some neighborhood "improvemnt" plan liek they did in Jamaica?
I don't know why it was retained until 1973. I do remember riding it as a kid, and it provided fast service down to the "Hub," 149th Street. I think it was kept because it ran right down the center of the Bronx, and there is about a 2 mile gap between Grand Concourse (D)and Westchester Avenue/Southern Blvd (2,5).
I don't think it was ever intended to connect the Second Avenue subway to the Third Avenue El, but the connection to White Plains Road was made I believe when the White Plains Road line was completed.
Third Avenue Express trains ran all the way to 241st.
That's all I know.......
The El was kept in service because it was largely in good shape and had ridership to justify the maintenance on it. By 1973 however, the South Bronx lost its "sparkle" and ridership by then had plummeted. I used to ride it home often (I'd NEVER take it in the morning though, it was slower than the toonerville trolley) and was often the only person on the train. It died in '73 more from a lack of ridership than any demand to tear it down, though the uppoer section's residents didn't shed many tears when it did come down. And it fought every effort at destruction. That was ONE TOUGH El to tear down.
The Bronx section of the Third Avenue El was retained because it served a need -- there was no other rapid transit in that area. And, with other IRT lines elevated in the Bronx, it was not out of place.
What happened in the early 70's? Deferred maintenance resulted in such a degree of rot (literally) that the only options were (a) tearing it down or (b) entirely replacing the structure. In light of the City's budget crisis, option (a) was selected.
That is why between '72 and the Metrocard free transfer, there was a free transfer between bus and subway at 3rd Avenue and 149th Street.
It was an important line because it linked two major commercial centers (fordham center and the hub) with fast service. It was torn down because a new third avenue subway was to be built as a part of the Second Avenue Subway Line. But it never came to be and it was replaced by the sluggish Bx55.
The northern part of the line was far from other rapid transit, so it was considered necessary and, as late as the MTA's 1968 plans, it was supposed to be kept until it could be replaced by another line.
It was closed in 1973 because the TA found it was able to get away with it.
>>It was closed in 1973 because the TA found it was able to get away with it. <<
And the communities were anxious to get rid of the unsightly structure. Moreover, they were lured into a false sense of security by the promise of all the buses that would replace the El.
Little did they realize what they were in for.
To be fair - It would be interesting to speculate what Manhattan would have been like if the 3rd Av or even the 2nd Av El had not been
torn down.
To be fair - It would be interesting to speculate what Manhattan would have been like if the 3rd Av or even the 2nd Av El had not been
torn down.
Most accounts say that Third Avenue was persistently downscale when the El ran overhead. It wasn't a slum, at least not in Midtown, but attracted mostly low-end businesses that couldn't afford the rents elsewhere. Apartment buildings along the avenue were mostly low-rise and relatively inexpensive.
My guess is that Third Avenue would have become somewhat more upscale as development pressures grew, but would have remained a notch below the other avenues. It's also quite likely that community pressures to remove the unsightly El would have become stronger and stronger.
As mcuh as RIDING an el is great, the East side would be a different place (for the worse) if they had remained. The TA's cardinal sin was not replacing the service.
Somebody posted here that they "got away" with scrapping the Bronx portion of the El. I know what you meant by "getting away with", like they almost got away with getting rid of the Franklin Ave Shuttle. Just defer maintenance forever till demolition is the only "practical" option. Although it wasn't a subway, many suspect that's what happened to the old West Side Highway.
I do remember seeing soemthing in the '68 plan (as history- not old enough to actually remember it, LOL) showing the 3rd Ave line still there.
Thanks, all
The major problem with the Third Avenue El in Manhattan was the total disruption of traffic, both on Third and on cross-streets. The effect on the neighborhood was secondary. (Ah yes, I remember it well!)
The Second Avenue El was supposed to be replaced by the Second Avenue Subway (1940 version). The Manhattan Section of the Third Avenue El was supposed to be replaced by the Second Avenue Subway (1950's version). The Bronx Section of the Third Avenue El was supposed to be replaced by the Second Avenue Subway (1968 version). Any bets on whether we ever see a Second Avenue Subway!
I wonder if they could've shared tracks with Metro North's harlem Line and connected that to a 2nd ave subway. They parallel Webster avenue almost exactly and a slightly sophisticated transfer tunnel/walkway constructed to connect to the Gun Hill rd station of the 2/5 at White plains Rd. I could've used that train with all the walking I did from Perry ave to Fordham Prep in the late 80's.
No way. The Metro-North tracks use a different type of third rail which cannot be used with current subway equipment. The signaling system is totally different, and the subway signals use tripping mechanisms to enforce restricted movements, while Metro-North does not. Besides, the Metro-North tracks are very busy during rush hours, and could not support the extra traffic that sharing with the subways would bring. Now looking atthe prospect of LIRR trains going into GCT in the future, I wonder how the folks at the MTA will handle those compatibility difficulties.
No way. The Metro-North tracks use a different type of third rail which cannot be used with current subway equipment. The signaling system is totally different, and the subway signals use tripping mechanisms to enforce restricted movements, while Metro-North does not. Besides, the Metro-North tracks are very busy during rush hours, and could not support the extra traffic that sharing with the subways would bring. Now looking at the prospect of LIRR trains going into GCT in the future, I wonder how the folks at the MTA will handle those compatibility difficulties.
I walked third avenue (the Bronx) a couple of weeks ago and it seems very barren. If they ever get around building the second avenue line, I suggest building an elevated route along third avenue that will eventually connect the 2 and 5 line at Gun Hill Road.
N Broadway Line
Now in these days you look at the rent for a shoebox sized apartment on Third Ave. in Mid-Manhattan, and the price tag will give you serious sticker shock. Less money is paid for a three bedroom house with a garage and a $180,000 mortgage at 7.25% on a quiet, tree lined street in Queens than what those pirates in Manhattan want for those claustrphobia generating, thinwalled "living spaces".
I was 3 years old when they tore that down. I'd ask my folks and others why they got rid of it and they kept tell ing me that pieces of it were falling onto Webster Ave. Any truth to that???
I was 21 years old when they tore it down (Damn I feel old). I never heard of anything falling off the structure but knwoing the condition that it was in I would not be surprised.
Yeah, it shed some spikes and plates off the ties, I collected a few of them at Webster and 204th. I assume they fell at other places as well. It wasn't an everyday event, but they'd be out there in the street every coupld of weeks. Of course, they could have sent out people to bang them back into the wood before they fell down but like I said, ridership wasn't exactly a profit center on that line.
Someone told me the doors on the trains use to open while in transit. Did someone else hear or experience that story?
N Bwy Line (LOCAL)
Oh yes. In the early 80's, these incidents almost matched the numbers of derailments.
Yes ... it was shedding spikes aplenty, plates and other pieces. There was only sufficient maintenance on it to keep the trains from falling off and even there it was dubious. I remember a two week period where they actually had trains running on timbers with metal strap in place of the rail down around 155th St. If I remember correctly, the final straw was when one of the stations burned. Might have been Burnside Ave ...
And for all the yakking about what a flimsy, dangerous el it was, when they actually went to cut it down, it refused to go. They actually had to use explosives in some stretches and many footers had to be cut at the street and paved over.
I think it was Claremont Parkway that burned, and might have been a few days after it was burned.
If you are looking for a similiar ride, ride Chicago Blue Line out to 54th-Cermak. That looks like it is going to fall into the street....
I think it was Claremont Parkway that burned, and might have been a few days after the el closed.
If you are looking for a similiar ride, ride Chicago Blue Line out to 54th-Cermak. That looks like it is going to fall into the street....
Yep ... now that you mention it, that's the station that smoked. And yeah, did the blue line once out in Chitown ...
How could you have run a train - metal strap in place of rail?
5 MPH ... it was there for a couple of days on the northbound track between 156th and 161st ... about 30/40 feet in length, inside rail. Dunno why they did it, but it was in revenue ... couple days later, it got replacew tih "real" rail ...
Thanx............
The residents were promised a new 2nd Ave subway replacement, and the el itself was in serious structural trouble (especially the older portions at the southern end of the line). Speed limits and reductions from 5 to 4 car trains were necessary. Retention of the shuttle would've required a massive rehab, impossible in the politics of the 1970's.
Myself and playland attended the festiveties, Free admition into the Museum, does anyone notice that at the museum the R-12s are the most umpopular car? Did anyone else attend?
Dude,I was there. It was pretty kool,the best was getting downstairs for free!!The canival was packed to the rim,my kid couldnt get her face painted or get cottencandy or antthing. A bit disapointing,but overall it was fun. My kid said she wanted to come back next time when they were there. I got a rail and bus fan in the making guys!!!
I was there between 3:30pm and closing. Can't beat $0.50 admission. That Peter Pan owned GM Bus of the Future thing was really neat. It was funny that there was a line to get into the Museum store. And I checked the car number boards and all they had were R21/22's for sale. Did anyone who went there earlier see and/or buy a car number sign from a R26/28/29/33/36?
Picked up 7939 last week...
My friend got an R-29 number plate, 8603 (the car with several R-21 straps).
The car with several R-21 straps?
How do I keep missing these things?
I still haven't seen the Redbird with R-62-style handholds. I guess they keep all of the interesting trains off the 2.
Thats car 8660 a R29 on the 6 line. It is still running so you can catch it.
>>>
Thats car 8660 a R29 on the 6 line. It is still running so you can catch it<<<
Not any more...according to Train Dude...no more redbirds on the 6...effective today
Peace,
ANDEE
He said no more R-36. R-29s still ply the rails.
Andee: 8660 is a R29 car. Ill check up on the R36 thing tomorrow......
Head on over to BusTalk for some others' reactions.
The highlight of my day was the ride on the Triboro Coach New Look up to Queens. (Wrong direction, but who cares?)
I will be most pleased if the TM decides again to hold the festival on a non-Saturday.
On my trip to the Transit Museum yesterday, I first took the (7) train to Queensboro Plaza. I transferred to the (N), and was glad to see a train of R32 cars enter the station. The lead car on this train is 3581. After passing through the 60th Street tunnel, I ran upstairs and caught a downtown (6) train of R142A cars. After getting on 7397, and walking to 7396, I got off at Grand Central and took the Shuttle to Times Square. I saw a (3) train of R62A's entering on the express track. I boarded on the second car from the back. All 9 cars were singles with narrow cabs (I actually saw the conductor change sides, in order to open the doors at 34th Street). I moved to the first car and stood by the front window. I got off at Borough Hall. I walked along Court to State Street, then along Boreum Place and Adams Street to the Mariott Hotel. I walked back from the hotel the way I came, passing a LONG line along Boreum Place at the entrance. I walked along State and Court Streets to the Court Street entrance to Schermerhorn Street, where the line was a LOT shorter. After paying the 50˘ admission fee and getting the hand stamp, I went in to explore the buses. I had made an arrangment to meet my aunt, who also is somewhat a transit fan. While I was waiting (she was on the Boreum Place line, which was estimated to be a half-block long), I went around the mezzanine level of the station. I went back upstairs, and eventually met her. We started taking pictures. We went through the whole museum, entering R7A #1575 and R33 #9306. I ran out of film (a 36 roll) before going downstairs! What I took yesterday will appear on Transit Pictues 25, which will be up probably on Tuesday or Wednesday.
After eating at Wendy's, my aunt and I took a (4) train to Atlantic Avenue. The lead car: R62 #1575. Being at Atlantic Avenue felt a bit weird. I would usually arrive there during the middays, when (4) trains terminate there. I took a (D) train (there was no Q then). My aunt got off the (D) train at Church Avenue, while I continued to Coney Island. On the turn into Stillwell Avenue, I saw an (N) train on track 1. The southernmost car: 3581. I transferred to that train once the doors opened. An (N) train of R40 slants entered on track 2. As the (N) train I was on departed, I saw a (B) train depart from track 8. It was a train of R40 slants. I took that (N) train to 36th Street. I was a bit surprised when the (N) train switched to the local track on the approach to 59th Street. Since my desire was an express, I got off at 36th Street, and waited a moment. I noticed a train entering on F4 track. It was the same (B) train I saw leaving Stillwell. I rode this train, led by car 4162, followed by 4163, 4370-1, 4170-1, and four more cars I didn't get the numbers to. I took another (4) train. The lead car: 9305. I got off at 59th Street. While riding, both the (3) and (4) trains, I noticed that there were a lot more R142A trains on the (6), about 3 or 4, than R142 trains on the (2), exactly one. As mentioned earlier, I got off at 59th Street, where I went to the Lexington Avenue (N) station. I saw a few trains of R68's there. Apparently, some cars have the rollsigns installed wrong. For example:
--------------------------
| | Coney Island |
| (N) |--------------------|
| |Astoria/Ditmars Blvd|
--------------------------
South terminal in the north terminal space, and vice versa. While I'm waiting, an (N) train of R32's came in on G2 track. the tenth car of that train is...you guessed it...3581. The trip via the 4th Avenue BMT and Lexington Av IRT express was quicker than the trip up the Broadway/4 Av BMT local. Instead of getting on, I waited for the next (N) train, which was, of course, the train of R40 slants. That train must have blasted through that tunnel at, like, 60 MPH! I hereby proclaim the R40 slant the best car to ride through that tunnel. In the time I was waiting for that train of 40-slants, the transfer on my metrocard had expired. So, after taking the (7) from Queensboro Plaza to Bliss Street, I walked home.
As a recap, here are the main points of the trip:
- Three sightings of R32 #3581 and the train it was on.
- Being on both R7A and R62 #1575
- Being on R33 cars #9306 and 9305
- R40 slants on the (B) and (N)
- Real quick ride northbound through 60th Street tunnel
- Railfan windows on both ends of a (3) train, and a narrow cab on both ends of all 9 cars
- More "millennium" cars on the (6) than on the (2)
That's about it!
While you were on 9305 and 9306 remember
9305 R 33 MAINLINE
9306 R 33 WORLDS FAIR
True, but sill consecutive numbers.
True, but still, consecutive numbers.
I dont know why people paid admissions, We just went in, and went all over the place, whats interesting is we didn't realize that we had to pay until we left the festiveties and had seen the people waiting online to get in, oh well.
Why is the W/West End from Coney Island being turned around at Pacific St. on weekends? Why is the MTA only running the (Q), at much less frequency than what the combined weekday W, (Q) and frequency will be? I assume the Manhattan Bridge would be capable of handling the W and (Q) on weekends, strength-wise
Will the N and R run local through the Montague tunnel on weekends? Having no 4th Ave. bridge express service on weekends makes no sense to me. If there is to be one line cut back on weekends (but why?), it seems, based on ridership, that it should be the N, not the B.
The MTA web site mentions the W cutback, but in a somewhat "hidden" way, I think. Won't the W riders be angry? Do they realize what will happen to them? To get to midtown Manhattan as they used to, they will need to switch to the N or R from Pacific St. and take it one stop to DeKalb Ave., then switch to the (Q). A double transfer. OR go upstairs at Pacific St. and use the free transfer walk to the (Q) or IRT Atlantic AVe. stations. Seems unfair.
IF W riders complain, do you think the MTA will change the W operation on weekends?
Mike Rothenberg
Maybe they would change it if people complained.
What about running the N express over the bridge on weekends?
"If there is to be one line cut back on weekends, it should be the N, not the B." Based on ridership, true. Presently, the N runs nights to Manhattan, while the B and R do not. This is done to avoid a double transfer for N or R riders, or redundancy (N and R) from 59th to 36th, which would waste money.
Cutting the main line; the N, will be very ignorant.
N Bwy Line
But this will make a double transfer for W riders - first to the N or R for the one-station ride from PAcific St. to Dekalb, and then a transfer to the Q (unless W riders want to go upstairs to the mezzanine and transfer to either of the Atlantic Ave. station trains).
As far as the R and W being cut back at night, this is not the issue. The question is why does any line need to be cut back during the day and evening, on weekends? The W could replace the N during weekend days and evenings to Astoria, as it now replaces the Q to Queensbridge (I think) during weekend days and evenings.
But the real question is: if the B and D could run on the northside bridge tracks while the southside tracks were being worked on, on weekends, why can't the W and Q run on the southside bridge tracks while the northside tracks are being worked on, on weekends?
Mike Rothenberg
"But the real question is: if the B and D could run on the northside bridge tracks while the southside tracks were being worked on, on weekends, why can't the W and Q run on the southside bridge tracks while the northside tracks are being worked on, on weekends?"
This question supposes that the work that will cause the W to be truncated will be happening on the bridge. T'ain't necessarily so...
David
OK, this is completely out of here but I just can't help myself. I work nights and I'm dead on hours now and sucking down beers in the company bar ...
Isn't there something inherently wrong with the concept of a DUBYA train to begin with? I realize we have us a GOP governor, even if he hasn't yet gotten the clue that the party thinks less of him than Jeffords right now because his fundamentalist moral fiber ain't up to that of Jesse Helms, and thus NYC can rot in Hades as far as DUBYA in concerned.
But NAMING a train after Shrub? In NYC? Ummm ... I don't care WHERE it goes, I ain't riding no DUBYA train. :)
The "W" is for "W"est End. No politics are involved whatsoever.
David
Then let's call it the "X train" ... might bring back Agen Fox Muldaur ... by *not* naming it the "dubya" then all politics would be removed. Don't mind me, I don't give a rat's ass about politics personally, I realize that "politics" is derived from "poly" meaning "many" and "ticks" which is self-explanatory. Rest assured that all political parties are out for themselves and pluck you. :)
But let's go for "X" ... Dubya means "work motor" and well ... ain't been much leadership out of our work.
NYCT work motors haven't had a "W" prefix on their car numbers in many years. Again: "W" is a mnemonic device meaning "W"est End. Politics are not involved in the naming convention.
David
Heh. No problem. "It's a CONSPIRACY, MAN!" :)
Actually, I don't believe that's correct.
Reminds me of how I used to joke that my local soon-to-be-expired B train was called the B because it ran through Bensonhurst and Boro Park in Brooklyn and up to the Bronx to end at Bedford (park) Boulevard....
I'm pretty sure the reason the W was chosen was because they needed a yellow symbol for the train, it running on broadway and all, and for whatever reason N, R, Q, and W are the ones that were already yellow on the signs.
And personally, though I disapprove of the President's policies, i think it's funny to have a train with his name - and anyway, what are we gonna do, start using every letter from the names of people we don't like?
-Alan Scott
rather, STOP using letters.
sorry about that.
wacky antonymous typoes...
As long ago as 1995, I saw an R32 with one side roll-sign partially turned to a yellow "W"- the top portion said "Astoria", I couldn't tell what the bottom portion said, then the train pulled out of Canal St.
Along came the internet and subway.org and a few others. I think I read in a few places there was once some kind of plan to run the "W" from Astoria to Whitehall, once the "N" was returned to the Manny B.
I've even asked here in earlier posts whether anyone knew of this...I think one or 2 folks may have validated this.
W Astoria / Broadway was what the sign said. Yep, the plan was to return the N to the bridge and run the W from Astoria to Whitehall as a rush hour only service (broadway local). Since the N would run via bridge all times except nights (when the R didn't run), only during rush hour would there be two broadway locals.
I presume if this plan were to still go into effect, the W would run all day (lower Broadway line now has more ridership).
The broadway local structure would be something like this:
Weekdays, 5AM - 9PM : R/W
Weekdays, 9PM - MID : R, N north of Canal
Nights : N
Weekends, 5AM - MID : R, N north of Canal
Let's hope that once the Bridge is fully open, they actually DO this. There's been 2 locals along lower Broadway since at least 1967, with the old EE & RR, later the N. Of course, from 1976 to 1998ish, the N to Whitehall was a rush-hour branch...
Call the train the 'X' and Spike Lee will probably have his lawyers on your back for copyright infringement :-)
If it were up to me, I would have used the Traditional West End letter which was "T" for the Brooklyn Service. Still, "W"...sounds funny!
"W"ayne
That is a coincidence. What's the A for? How about the N? N doesn't seem to work with Broadway, Seach Beach, 4 Avenue nor Astoria. The only intentional one is the S. S for special and shuttle. The W was chosen as it is the last free Broadway letter.
What about (J)amaica ave, and (M)yrtle ave?
Formerly, also (C)oncourse.
What really gets me is the the L isn't an El, except for about two stops.
The "L" is an El for 5˝ stops: New Lots, Livonia, Sutter, Atlantic, Broadway Junction, and southbound Wilson Avenue. Two others are at grade.
wayne
The "T" was free and historical Astoria-Broadway-West End.
But the T is not yellow. It's white on every rollsign that it appears on, if I'm not mistaken.
"The W could replace the N..." Yes, it could. But I think the TA has gone to keeping things as simple as possible over the last 15 years or so. This trend toward simplicity would go against having the N serving Astoria at some hours and the W at others. (This trend also resulted about 15 years ago in the part-time Q becoming the Brighton Express and the 24/7 D the Brighton Local.) I agree with you that there seem to be inequities with service patterns. My peeve is that the Brighton has nearly as many passengers as all the 4th Av. services put together (statistics posted by David a few weeks ago), but the 4th Av. lines should have 3 services going to Manhattan on weekends while the Brighton has only 1.
Only the 4th Avenue express can terminate at Pacific. On weekends, that means the W. Thus the W must terminate at Pacific.
(Sure, I suppose the TA could run the W local and the N express on weekends, but then nobody would be able to remember which lines run express and which run local.)
There's no need to transfer twice -- the N and R also go to Midtown, albeit via Lower Manhattan. Pacific/Atlantic also has the 2/3/4 option.
I think the idea is that, at least for the next year, GO's will have either the bridge or the tunnel out of commission entirely on most weekends, so the W would have to be cut back then in any case.
I did suggest a while back that the W run through to DeKalb, terminating on whichever track isn't otherwise in use. (That would require a bit of switching and wrong-railing but it could be done.) Those weekends that both the tunnel and the bridge are open, the W could continue on to Manhattan despite the scheduled short-turn.
I guess, and I must admit it makes sense, that TA tries to keep GO's to a minimum, and therefore, knowing of the need for trackwork, ha simply made it official that the W will have only a short run on weekends.
I had actually heard that there'll be a lot of trackwork scheduled for the next few years, hence this schedule. While inconvinient, (good friends of mine used to live in Bensonhust, so I remember taking the "B" on weekends straight to Rock Center), at least W riders will KNOW what they gotta do.
Lets hope they ahve it extended by the time they close Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island Station. Or you'll have a W Train running from Bay Parkway to Pacific Street. Kinda short for a run.
When they renovate Stillwell, odds are that the only train that will still go there will be the W (B).
There's a big station job at DeKalb about the start up. That may be the reason for turning the W at Pacific on weekends.
If so, people could always lobby to stop the DeKalb rehab until after 2004.
What is the DeKalb Ave. rehab project going to do?
Mike Rothenberg
It's a station rehabilitation project, addressing structural as well as aesthetic concerns. Elevators (ADA) will be installed as well.
David
Yes, those crumbling trackside walls are going to get all fixed up, just like they did at 36th street. Let's hope they keep the use of that sealant/clearcoat to a minimum - it stinks to high heaven.
wayne
I think the Q and W (riders) is getting preferential treatment over my N line, because they are running over the Manhattan Bridge.
Maybe they should have created a diamond N that runs via West End instead of the W line.
N Broadway Line (LOCAL)
N-B Line wrote:
>I think the Q and W (riders) is getting preferential treatment over >my N line, because they are running over the Manhattan Bridge.
>
>Maybe they should have created a diamond N that runs via West End >instead of the W line.
>
>N Broadway Line (LOCAL)
I think that would confuse people too much....myself included. you'd end up with two permanent N trains that take different ways out of manhattan and different paths in Brooklyn, crossing at 62/New Utrecht and then terminating together at Stillwell!
Could you imagine the annnouncements? "Transfers available to the *other* N train..."
And at Pacific/Atlantic, imagine you're on a 2 train: "Transfers to the 3, 4, 5, M, R, N, N, Q and Q trains!" hee hee...here's a thought, let's call *all* the trains the N Train (or the B, etc.), but with different shaped signs....now *that* would confuse tourists (and everyone else..)
Alan Scott
Your funny!!! By the way, when I wrote that message I became upset when someone wrote that the N train shouldn't be all the time. Sooooo I said why not have one N go over the bridge via West End. But your RIGHT! it will be very confusing.
N Bwy LINE LOCAL
CONGRATULATIONS!!! YOU'VE STARTED THE ONE BILLIONTH THREAD ABOUT THE W TURNING AT PACIFIC!!! TELL HIM WHAT HE'S WON, DAVE!
Before Chrystie Street and the B running all the way to Coney Island, wasn't weekend service the same - only to 36th Street, provided by the TT local?
We've only gone back about 35 years.
Correct, but todays "B" service carries many more passengers than the old "TT" service.
The T ran to 57th on Sat., but was a shuttle Sun.
Which would still be a service increase compared to what the TA desires to do with the "W" weekends.
Did they ever run GE and Westinghouse R16's together?
Looking at my pictures of the R16's, it seems that all the 6300's ran together, and the same with the 6400's.
Any ideas??????????
As a kid, I HATED the R16s, R27/30s. As an adult, I miss them. while the 16s appear to have had a lot of problems from the outset (I'm sorry), if the 30s had been preserved, we could have more service now, when we need it.
Did you hate them because they replaced the B and D types?
The last remaining 30's were stripped of their parts and put into the WF 36's, correct? Wasn't it the controllers?
The R-27s and R-30s replaced most of the nonrebuilt BMT standards, SIRT cars, multis, and Lo-Vs operating on BMT shuttle lines. The Triplexes remained until the R-32s began arriving.
The R-16s themselves didn't replace anything.
With the current equipment shortage on New Jersey Transit (I'll call it that because of many SRO trains), I think it may have been premature to retire the Arrow II's two - three years ago.
I didn't ride them in their last days, and don't know if they were in real bad shape, but wouldn't it have made sense to keep them in service on the Hoboken division and keep all the Arrow III's in Northeast Corridor/North Jersey Coast Service? Or maybe cannibalize a few to keep the rest running?
I didn't hear anything about the Arrow II's being retired. Of course there weren't many of them so they would be east to miss. However, NJT isn't really in the mabit of scrapping things. They turned all the Arrow I's into Cab cars and I'm sure the Arrow II's could have gotten some conversion into an unpowered trailer of some sort.
from NJT posters in cars: The arrow I cars Now called Comet I cars will be retired when the Comet V cars arrive.
From other sources: The Arrow II cars might go to SEPTA.
The Arrow II's going to SEPTA would make since the Arrow II and Silverliner IV are just about identical, and AFAIK use much of the same componetry.
I'm glad to see that SEPTA found a use for them...........
Not all the Arrow Is became cabs, a few became trailers.
The Arrow IIs were retired around '97, they were nearly identical to the pre-GOH Arrow IIIs. I have a very, very vague memory of them, they had the two-color seats (window tan, aisle black on the 2 seaters and window and aisle tan with center black on the three seaters).
They had center doors, SEPTA will certainly benefit from them if they did go there (I don't see them around anymore, they sat in that yard by the PATH for about 3 years).
NJT should have benefitted instead of SEPTA.
All of the NJT Electric MU Arrow II cars are retired. The Arrow I cars in service are now locomotive-hauled and are called Comet IB's. For much more info about the Arrow I go to hobokenterminal.com.
Arrow III MU cars MA-1H numbered 1304-1333 and MA-1J (100 pairs) numbered 1334-1533 are currently in use.
I've seen the Arrow 2's near the rail shop & maintenance yard for PATH just outside Harrison and they were for sale. I guess SEPTA took them all and "rebuilt" them to better MU's. By the way, NJT is not in the business of scrapping anything.
The Comet 2 Fleet is being rebuilt by a company out in the Chicago area (I think) and are newly #'ered 5300-5396 and look just like Comet IV's.
If you ride the Arrow 3's, you can pick up a yellow take-one at one of their ads inside the train and that will give you everything you need to know.
Anything else? just reply to me.
Hope this helps...
Railfan Pete
So why wouldn't NJT keep them around considering the heavy traffic.
Those new cars are years off?
From reliable sources. At about 1800 on Tuesday 7/3 an R-142A in service around Hunts Point Ave., on the express track dropped its trip cock assembly forcing the train to go BIE and stranding the passengers for about 1 hour. As a result all R-142As were pulled from service to be inspected and most were back in service by Wednesday. That is all. Anyone having more details please feel free to add.
Peace,
ANDEE
Scary...
Hopefully a one-time glitch, or they may have to start putting parts back into a few of the `Birds on the scrap line...
Its the second time it first happend on the 30 day test.
The parts just fell off?
SOrt of reminds you of the R-46's way back when.
This is what I love to hear, becuase now the R-46 is a pretty damn good car in the B-Division, so this only means that the R-142/R-142A can only progress from here!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
I'm not sure which is more serious. A cracking truck or an emergency brake assembly becoming dislodged.
Well, the dislodged trip cock caused a BIE, a fail-safe mechanism.... we don't yet know what a cracked truck might have done...
a cracked truck would have caused a derailment. the car would fly off its bogie and into the beams causing mass destruction and injury. or if it is going slow, just injury. look at what happened with the almond joys in 1989 1990 (i cannot remember the year) anyway, looking at the way the truck of the R-142A is designed, it looks like it contains flaws.
I've always known that those R-142As suffered from poor build quality, with the interior noise, rough ride, and bad brakes. Now components falling out from underneath while in service for the second time in a year???
What the heck is Kobe and Yonkers sending us???
Judging by Train Dude's post about all the Redbirds being ordered removed from the Westchester yard, apparently, operations doesn't think the problem is too serious (or someone's nostalgic for the train shortages caused by the Rockwell truck fiasco of the late 1970s)
Not all Redbirds are off the 6, just the R36's. The R29's are still running.
Fine by me. The last R-29 I took on the 6 (8605) actually had colder air-conditioning than the R-142 I took later, while the R-36WF car was barely putting out any cold air at all. If all the Westchester yard cars are bound for the scrap line with no chance of reprieve from the governor (or anyone else up the MTA food chain), at this time of year send the ones with the weakest AC first.
I'm pretty sure they were joking.
Wayne
They've gotta increase the torque...
-Hank
I was on the #6 R-142A when it "went into emergency". After a very long time we were told "something fell off the bottom of the train and that put the brakes in emergency. The total wait was over 1 1/4 hrs. Eventually we were told "about 8 transit workers on the track were able to tie the 'thing that fell' onto the train, and the train was them directed into Hunts Point station (first door only) where we all slow made are way off." The passengers in my car took it pretty well, maybe because the lighting and air conditioning were great.
It is a design defect. Look at how the trip assembly is mounted.
Every time the axle goes up or down, the assembly is stressed
because part of it is hung from the truck frame.
Will reopen. This according to new advertisements on the Path Vision (or whatever they call them) monitors. "A whole new SIDE to PATH" is the tag line on the ads. I guess they will use the side platform for 33rd/Hoboken (northbound) service and the center platform for JSQ/WTC (southbound) service.
Let's face it, Dave, they are going to need it when J.P. Morgan Chase starts moving 3000 or so people to 2 new office buildings starting next January. While obviously not all 3000 will be using PATH I think that at least half will be.
That center platform is probably crowded enough as it is. The side platform will probably be used only during weekdays.
The Pavonia platform is just nuts during rush hours. I've never seen a NYCT station THAT crowded!
Bowling Green was like that until they created the side platform way back in 1976.
And historically speaking, the stories are/were that the express [i.e. bridge line]platforms at Canal St on the BMT were DANGEROUSLY crowded at rush hour before the Canarsie line was extended to East NY,as people using the BMT from East NY going to uptown Manhattan drag all the way in on the Broadway el to Canal, then transfer to the uptown lines at Canal........ I would also love to see what the platform at 72nd St on the IRT was like in the 20's.......
I've been there several times on weekend trips (Saturday afternoons), dangerously crowded even then, especially near the exit (north) end.
They SHOULD use the side platform; and use it for MANHATTAN bound trains, not Hoboken ones.
wayne
From Pavonia/Newport, WTC is southbound and 33rd street is northbound.
Kind of hard to put both those services on the northbound track, especially since PATH has no crossovers.
Apparently under the new plan, service to Hoboken and 33rd street will be from the northbound (newly opened) platform. Service to WTC and Journal Square will remain from the center island platform.
That's a pain if you don't care where in Manhattan you end up. I guess it's unavoidable.
Sorry what I meant was 33rd Street I forgot that the southbound trains DO wind up in Manhattan - at World Trade Centre.
wayne
They should use it everyday. I have been to that Station everytime I go to Newport Mall. And the Phatform is NARROW that on weekends that there are alot of people waiting and the Phatform is so NARROW that it's HARD to get thorgh. The front is the worst part of the Station that I try to go to the back. And the 33 St-Journal Square Line needs more Trains running. It seems like every time I get on a 33 St-Journal Square Line train on a Weekend. There are NO SEATS!! Bad enough that I with my Grandma and she have to suffer standing up until 14 St.
Your grandmother (and others) also need more accessible (elevator equipped) sations on the NY side. I've been meaning to write to PATH regarding this. Access can be shared with MTA if architecturally appropriate and possible at agiven station (eg elevators and ramps lead to both IND and PATH platforms).
Actually, all his grandmother really needs is a little bit of courtesy from the other riders.
That be good. BUT at the 33 St side of 14 St needs WIDER STAIRS and better connections to the 6 Ave Subway so like that People don't have to go outside and go back under to get the Subway. Also the 9 St stop Needs anouther Exit and WIDER HALLWAYS and STAIRS. At those stops. The stairs and the Hallways are PACKED and it's inpossable to go ahead of other People. Also PATH should put more seats in the trains. I hopeing the new PATH cars would have MORE Seats.
I agree with you.
OK.
No, PATH is a high capacity rail system and more seats would mean a fewer number of people you are able to cram on each train.
Maybe he would like them to buy cars that are wider and longer so that they could fit more seats.
At 14st, there is a great connection between the southbound subway and the south(west)bound PATH. At 23st, there is a great connection between the northbound PATH and the northbound subway. The only reason anyone would need a better connection is if they were planning on reversing direction, and the best station to pull that would be at 9th st / W4th.
What about the L and 1/2/3/9 at 14th? (Granted, the latter is a full avenue block away, but 14th is still the best connection point from the 33rd-bound PATH.)
Access can be shared with MTA . . . .
The subway doesn't serve Christopher and 9th Streets any more. "33rd Street" already has elevators, one of them just north of the connection between PATH and the subway. That leaves 14th and 23rd Streets. I'm not sure, but I don't think there are full width mezzanines at either of these stations. Without a mezzanine that crosses 6th Avenue above the platforms, you have a geometry problem.
"The subway doesn't serve Christopher and 9th Streets any more. "33rd Street" already has elevators, one of them just north of the connection between PATH and the subway. That leaves 14th and 23rd Streets. I'm not sure, but I don't think there are full width mezzanines at either of these stations. Without a mezzanine that crosses 6th Avenue above the platforms, you have a geometry problem."
That does present a problem, doesn't it. Would a mezzanine extension work? As to Christopher St and Ninth Street, those are stations where PATH will have to go it alone... (Which NYCT service went there?)
Which NYCT service went there?
None. The Greenwich Street El had a stop at Christopher and the Sixth Avenue El had a stop at 8th Street.
The 9th Street station is a block and a half away from the 8th/Waverly exit of the West 4th Street station.
There used to be an El station right upstairs from the H&M at Christopher Street. I'm not sure how close the nearest 6th Ave El entrance was to the 9th Street H&M station.
As for mezzanine extension possibilities, I'll have to go take a look and report back.
Hooking up Ninth St. on PATH to the IND West Fourth Street station would be a nightmare, since the PATH trains have the A/C/E tracks right above them and the B/D/F/Q tracks right below at the Sixth Ave./Greenwich/Christopher/Eighth St. intersection.
If the PATH station had a side platform arrangement, it might be possible to run a stairway down to the Sixth Ave. platforms off the back platform walls, but the center platform arrangment means a conneting tunnel would have to snake above and around the 33rd St.-bound PATH tracks to the east of the uptown A/C/E tracks and then back down to meet the mezzanine level between the Sixth and Eighth Ave. tracks. Way too complex to justify, especially since a transfer at 23rd and Sixth to the F or even at 33rd to the B/D/Q/F/N/R would be a matter of repositioning a few fare control gates.
A transfer at 14th supposedly would just involve knocking a hole in the back wall of the F platforms, the same way they knocked a hole in the wall at Bleeker 40 years ago to create the transfer between the downtown 6 train and the Sixth Ave. lines.
I take it you mean the wall between each local subway track and the corresponding PATH platform, turning the PATH platform into an island with the PATH on one side and the TA on the other? Hmm. Interesting idea.
That would be an idea if the Daily News' suggestion from a few months ago that PATH go to a $1.50 fare and adopt Metrocard were implemented -- no need for the barriers in that case, since the two systems would be able to handle free transfers (they could even poke a couple of holes in the floor of the 1/9 Cortlandt St. station and hook it up with the WTC station for PATH two levels down).
As far as ADA compatability, 33rd and 14th would be the easiest to handle, while 23rd St. would require up to six elevators -- street to fare control, fare control to F local track underpass tunnel and underpass to PATH platform -- to make it work. As for Ninth Street, like I said, the connection that it would require just for a non-ADA transfer makes the effort not worthwhile.
OK, so PATH could make an effort and arrange ADA access at 14th Street and 9th Street, (and Christopher, budget permitting, and leave 23rd St alone. Not every stop would be ADA-compliant, but now you'd have three or four on the 33rd St line which would be. That would be acceptable.
How long will you think it will take them to toss in an elevator?
And, wasn't the side platform open briefly during the rehab? I remember when I was very young (under 6) standing there (or at least I have an image in my mind that can only exist if I was standing there).
If the side platform is tp be the only access for north-bound trains, an elevator will be essential for those in wheelchairs.
Actually, I just thought of a potentially million-dollar savings idea. Have handicapped people wait on the island platform by the first car, and have them alert the C/R while the train is in the station (yes, I know the C/R will be on the wrong side, maybe have a bell attached to a pillar or something). The C/R would key them in. Cheaper and faster to implement than a new elevator.
BTW: Keep in mind the handicapped are much more intelligent riders than your average Joe, they have to be considering the "bountiful" accomodations they are given at NYCT stations. To get from 50th st to Howard beach, for example, requires them to go to Far Rockaway and then reverse. To get from Howard Beach to 50st, they have to go to 175st and reverse.
Good idea. However, now that you suggest making Pavonia a flag stop for people in wheelchairs, I think I have the perfect solution: have people in wheelchairs use the passenger assistance telephone on the island platform to request north-bound service. The next train to the correct destination can be alerted by radio.
That is the perfect solution! (as the PA continues to finance the planning of the construction of a new elevator).
What do you want to bet that it doesn't meet ADA requirements. Sigh!
That's a half measure. Cheaper, maybe. But it misses the point. An elevator makes it easier for everyone to use a subway.
Do you guys know anyone who is:
-In a wheelchair
-Using a walker
-Using a cane or crutches
-Elderly and has poor balance
-under treatment for congestive heart disease
-suffering from chronic lung disease from smoking
-Diabetic with foot ulcers
-has sarcoidosis, or asthma
-Obese
-Has a chronic leg injury or bad back
-Traveling with a child in a stroller
-Carrying shopping bags or suitcases
All these people benefit greatly from an elevator - in fact, many couldn't use the subway without it.
The real access problem with Pavonia/Newport, in case you've never been there, is the humongous ramp from the mezzanine level to the base of the escalators. An elevator already exists from the surface to the base of the escalators and from the mezz to the platform. That ramp is quite a hike, even for the able bodied. Sports teams could use it for practice to build stamina.
Bring back the people mover!
I've walked that ramp! It is very long.
There is a plan to build another exit somewhere, that would bring you across the street and closer to the mall. The PA officials were at a recent ERA meeting, and mentioned this plan.
After Busfest I decided to take a little joy ride of my own. Ofcause I was with my dad who keeped asking me Don't I see enouth trains for one week. Anyway I got on a Southbound No.2 at Boro Hall which was an R33 Redbird so I got my front window all the way to Flatbush. It seemed like they must of slowed down the timers on TK1 North of Nevins. Then we arrived at Flatbush Ave at 5:20PM and all I seen was Redbirds. I seen some of the crews who first reaction was What in the world am I doing at Flatbush on my day off. Well I told them I was taking a joy ride and they said I was nuts. Well an R142 came in finally and I got on that train which made a 5:58PM out of Flatbush. I rode by the C/R in car 6310 and taken the train to 14 Street. I notice as we were leaving Flatbush some of the lights blinked. Then at Atlantic Ave when we made the stop some of the lights went out and then back on as we were leaving the station. I didn't think that was suppose to happen. One other note who ever program the computer made an error by programing it as a weekday run when the weekend program should be used so that the right transfer points are given.
>>>Well I told them I was taking a joy ride and they said I was nuts. <<<
Get used to that.
Peace,
ANDEE
I saw a A DE30 Moving one LIRR Bi level Cab car. Then Trains were seriously delayed! They had a Long beach Train at Jamaica with the Train to Far Rockaway! U know someone had to wait!
I saw a A DE30 Moving one LIRR Bi level Cab car. Then Trains were seriously delayed! They had a Long beach Train at Jamaica with the Train to Far Rockaway! U know someone had to wait! Also they got Babylon Trains stopping at St Albans! Not to mention i did See a DE30 stoppping at Queens Village!!!
You'll see those DE30's every day this summer, as they are regularly scheduled runs from Hollis and Queens Village during the Main Line track rehab. They originate on the Oyster Bay line and operate during the AM rush. I believe there are either two or three Oyster Bay trains making Hollis and Queens Village during the rehab.
Although St Albans is listed on the West Hempstead branch, it has generally been served by Babylon trains.
CG
So the weirdness is not confined to the Ronkonkoma branch only. When I was going into the city one morning on the electric, we skipped Westbury, paused at Carle Place paused again at Mineola, New Hyde Park, OV, Hollis and Hillside. Now I try to ride the diesel from Mastic/Shirley because they sometimes run express from Babylon to Jamaica.
While getting of at brighton beach I saw a on the Side roll sign on the R40. I didn't know they have it. Took that pics. How do you post a pic on this board?.
Two ways, depending on the provider that is hosting the image:
First, if your provider allows images hosted on the space to be served to other web sites, like this one, you need to use the img HTML tag. Use the parameter SRC="location" to specify the location of the image.
Otherwise use the iframe HTML tage with the SRC="location" set to the HTML file where that picture is located.
A good example is this one:
{iframe width="100%" height="450" src="location"}
{/iframe}
Please note that all HTML tags require < and > at either end of the tag. In the above example, { and } are to be replaced by < and >, respectively.
When you want to write out tags for tutorial purposes, you can use [ampersand]lt and [ampersand]gt. That gives you < and >. Much easier.
Also, it's probably easier to just post a hyperlink to your picture. The format is <A HREF="Full http Address of Picture">
Dan
I forgot to mention, you have to make sure to close the tag. The full format is:
<A HREF="Full http Address of Picture"> Link Text Here </A>
Dan
I was looking at the list of films on the Bibliography on the site and noticed a glaring omission...what about SUBWAY STORIES, the HBO movie from a few years ago???
What HBO movie?
Peace,
ANDEE
HBO made a movie around '97 called Subway Stories Rosie Perez and Mercedes Reuhl were 2 of quite a few stars in it. It was a compilation of about 10 true stories of things that happened on the Subway each directed by a different famous director, including Jonathan Demme. It's available on BN.com (VHS)
IIRC Jerry Stiller was in one of the stories playing an angel.
Or so it would seem, based on the ridiculous ad I saw on the side of a bus on Christopher Street a short time ago. The ad, for a woman's deodorant called Dove, proclaims in large blue letters "THIS BUS BRAKES FOR EXQUISITE ARMPITS."
Oy vey.
Peter,
There is a whole slew of ads like that. Those ads have bene running for almost a month.
It could be worse - they might have ads with Rudy's picture on them.
Yeah, or one of the clowns who are looking to replace him.
I'll take ANY one of those clowns in a heartbeat, so long Rudy!!!!
I'll take ANY one of those clowns in a heartbeat, so long Rudy!!!!
The circus is fun. A lot more fun that somebody who can actually run a city.
Things could be much worse. Who knows what Madison Ave. will come up with.
Oh, I still love the Planed Parenthood one. Black background, and just the words:
"Ohhh....Ohhh.... Oops!"
With a little blurb on their "emergency" contraceptive, and of course the usual "and other alternatives" (read: abortion) line.
I'm hardly a PP fan (or a right to life fan, for that matter), but I wih i could have scored one of these ads, I think they were funny...
What about the one where the bus is "wrapped" (there are ads over the windows as well as the metal exterior) with arrows pointing at where people's heads would be saying "This guy is checking his stocks using our wireless internet service."
How about the early wrap that included on top of the bus "Get Back To Work".
Mr t__:^)
Those ads are all over the subway plaforms too. But I'll be damned if I can remember what they're for. Guess the campaign is not that successful.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the worst ad right now is the ad for "King Cobra" malt something or other. It's a picture of a can of this stuff obscuring most of a naked woman, looking out of the poster with a strange expression on her face. It's somewhere between seductive and embarassed. The caption reads "There MIGHT be SOMETHING for YOU under my LABEL." Or something like that.
I think this is one of the most tasteless ads I've ever seen.
Dan
Oh that's nothing. There's an ad on many buses and some trains of a new clothing line coming out, one in which a woman is lying on top of a guy (both in their twenties) and is wearing pants with the belt holders shredded off and the top of her a** prominent.
Nice way to sweep wayward youth off their feet, isn't it?
To quote H.L Mencken: "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American Public."
Yep, the "give the people what they want" arguement, even if what they want is poisonous.
I work at a rather huge ad agency holding company - and lemme tell ya, advertising revenue is way off these days. I can only fear stupidier, even lower budge looking ads will come (like them elsewhere-mentioned 'king cobra' ads).
There have been some funny ones over the years.. that recent peanut campaign was kinda fun, and them yellow pages ads back in the early 90's were damn good (the ones with the random photos and no other explaination).
working hard or hardly working? <-- there's another bad one
Those "Babies are back" Bronx Zoo- er, New York Zoological Society- ads are puzzling. Did they KNOW all these cute baby animals were going to be born on June 24? Were they all shipped from their native locales to the Zoo on June 24? The sight of all the 'baby' accessories next to the appropriate species could be construed as cute or ludicrous. I vote for the latter.
For a long time the TA was running its own ads promoting safety. Every time I see that ad advising passengers to avoid tripping or falling, I feel disappointed. Here I was in the MOOD to take a nice header-
This is my theory, has anyone notice that everytime there are those saftey advertisements, the crime rate goes up? Is it a bad coincidince? I think those signs cause crime and unsafe conditions for some reason.
i past by corona yard today while riding on the 7 back from school. i did not see no silver train except the EP working car which was a few feet behind from a few cars. maybe they took it inside? i just know i did not see an r62a there
That may not have been what they saw. Mind you, you can't see all of Corona Yard from the 7 train.
:-) Andrew
oh ok. so does anybody have a picture of it?? i want to see it
If you want to see it, take the 7 to Willets Pt. and walk over the bridge towards Flushing Meadow Park. Midway across you can see nearly all of the yard, as well as the outside of the bus depot.
Dan
PS: I didn't see it either.
i cant. i went and it was closed. isnt it always closed?? they only open it when the U.S open comes
If it was closed, leave the station, walk across Roosevelt Ave. and into the park. By the tennis stadium is the ramp up to the bridge from the other end. I go up there when I ride my bike in Flushing Meadow Park.
Dan
::GASP!!::.... It's an EP WORKING CAR!!!!!!
So much for the hysteria...
hell i saw that car back in 1999 LOL !!! how bout that trevor logan ..??
i think people got confused. they saw an EP worker and thought it was a r62
It is odd that the origial poster mistook a workmotor for an R-62A since the only resemblance is the stainless steel shell. What's more amazing is that the original poster also confused the car # EPXX for car #2155. #2155? where did that ccome from?
First time this thread appeared, I read the subject...
and muttered to myself "ep work train car".... and
woop-de-doo!!... turns out I was right... and
the best part is......I didn't even hafta call Miss Cleo!!
well she is working on this already SOUTH FERRY !! right on my brother see you this fall !!
redbird jihad !!
I saw the EP work cars at Corona since at least 1998, maybe even '96.
yep ! my man !!! Lol !!!
You heard me right. Here we all are eagerly (?) awaiting the July edition and the MTA goes ahead and makes a November 2001 available (well at least the Manhattan part).
I picked up the latest copy of the Official NYC guide book published by NYC & Co. (the old Convention & Visitors Bureau). Within the confines of this book there is a Manhattan Subway Map. The Map has November 2001 on it. It shows the F via 63rd St, the V via 53rd St and all the Manhattan Bridge changes.
To cover themselves they put in a "balloon" caption indicating that the map is showing what the service will be starting in November and that customers should look at current maps for current service.
You should be able to find this guide book at any tourist info area. If not, NYC & Co. is located at 810 7th Av (just south of 53rd St).
The guidebook has a picture of the Statue of Liberty on the cover.
I find it amazing, sometimes the MTA is slow with the information distribution and sometimes they get months ahead.
Speaking of MB changes, before I forget, The MTA has reformatted the web pages for the upcoming changes. They now have individual infomation pages for each of the 4 boros affected. That may explain the earlier version indicating "information to the right".
i saw a whole bunch of MTA workers putting up new signal lights on the 7. it starts around 111 st. this is for CBTC right?
I doubt it. The CBTC technology hasn't been tested and proven on the L Line yet.
You probably won't see CBTC on the seven line for at least 10 years. The L line is getting it first and it has not even been fully installed there yet.
Peace,
ANDEE
(i saw a whole bunch of MTA workers putting up new signal lights on the 7. it starts around 111 st. this is for CBTC right?)
A conventional signal rehab, but CBTC ready. Another project will be starting up to redo the rest of the Flushing line the same way.
If CBTC works, the Flushing line will be number 2 or 3 on the list for CBTC. Remember, CBTC doesn't HAVE visible signals. The signal is radioed inside the train. But visible signals will also be put in for a while as the subway car fleet transitions from regular to CBTC -- you still need a way for non-CBTC cars to use the tracks.
you still need a way for non-CBTC cars to use the tracks.
Who needs signals? If the train keeps moving, the coast is clear. If it stops suddenly, it just hit a red.
All forms of railroading will always need signals at interlockings. With the current trend towards wireless everything, interfereance (both in and un tentional) will start to become a problem. Transmission using a physical medium is more secure and less prone to disruption. This is why I am an advocate of coded track circut signaling instead of CBTC. I also don't feel you should signal perminent speed restrictions. Signals translate variable track conditions, not static ones.
I'm curious as to what type of signaling NYCT installing on the #7. It is colored lights or position lights. Do they plan to delete the trip arm and upgrade the automatic train stop system, or will they use ASC like the LIRR?
They are most likey just upgrading the signals head to a newer type. The TA won't do A full upgrade on the signals untill they can figure out the CBTO works on the "L" line. This is the be the next time the line gets a compleat upgrade.
Robert
No, CBTC has normal signals but when under CBTC, the highest green light flashes to denote that it's in CBTC mode.
Just posted today - train operator - SIRT. No test. Main requirement is a clean driver's lic. for the past 5 years. Salary $36,535 to 48,708. I don't know how many positions. Job posting #001105. Filing closes 7/30/01
No union; not civil service; 2 weeks vacation; no sick time. 'Nuf said.
...and where wood one find the listing for such a job?????
No union?
No civil service?
No sick time?
No way.
Mind you the 2 weeks vacation part made the job an automatic throw out for a TA man. But the rest of you should consider it.
No sick days, no union, forget it!
If possible TD, could you post the link (if any) for the job? I personally am not interested, but I'd like to post it on the bulletin boards in the event that someone else would be interested.
The posting is not on the MTA website (external). I found it on the internal website. Anyone interested can get a copy at 130 Livingston St., 370 Jay St., 1250 B'Way, 347 Madison Ave or Bay St. in Staten Island.
Just posted today - train operator - SIRT. No test. Main requirement is a clean driver's lic. for the past 5 years.
Why the driver's license requirement? Many NYC residents don't have licenses, and the five-year requirement in particular will prevent them from applying.
I believe that in Boston, all operators (rapid transit and light rail) are required to obtain Class B Commercial Driver Licenses (CDLs) with P (Passenger) and Air Brake endorsements. That's in case substitute bus service is required -- they can shift out of the cab into the driver's seat. [Boston T Party, is that correct?]
C'est la gare'.
C'est la gare'.
?
"C'est le guerre" = That's war. Meaning: that's war, what else would you expect? Best said along with a very expressive shrug of the shoulders, with a sigh thrown in for good measure. :^)
Either Train Dude misspelled "guerre," or he was making a deliberate pun, since "gare" means station in French.
Is it because the R-44's in SIRTOA service have the optional five speed stick? :0)
Now if the Transit Museum gets too many examples of subway cars no longer in use, where will they go if expansion is needed? The current collection is nice, but with the redbirds going the way of the do-do birds, and other types of equipment waiting to go into retirement, what sort of expansion will have to take place? If the museum moves to another location, what will happen to the old Court Street Station? A connection to a new Brooklyn-Manhattan line would be a welcome addition, right folks?
I agree. The real question is will NYCTA spend the money to expand the museum to display the current crop of retiring subway cars? I don't think so.
Probably like all museum collections the cars on display will be rotated periodically. I believe from postings on this board some of the cars are / will be kept at CI Yard.
I had posted the same question concerning the Transit Museum several weeks ago. The above would seem reasonable.
There is already a "Redbird" in the Museum - R33 WF # 9306, in its orginal blue color.
Whenever the Slants get retired, the Museum should definitely keep one in its rotation. (Hopefully a whole trainful for fan trips.) Also, the R44, and my favorite car, the R46. They look alike, but were made by different companies, and I was told they differ somewhat mechanically.
(The R46 is my favorite car, due to all those childhood "F" train trips I took.)
They could reroute the #6 and store a bunch of cars in the City Hall station...when they finally open it up as a museum............
As that was an IRT station, I don't think the B-size cars, especially the 75-footers, would fit in there.
I wanted to specify the 75-footers in particular because of the curved track.
Or perhaps the A-Division samples at City Hall, and B-Division samples at the Museum in Brooklyn (after all, an old, disused IND station)?
How about the lower level at Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall BMT Station as a museum annex?
9th ave lower level has 3 X 600' tracks.
Just extend the current musem a little thats all. It was weird because I was thinking about that on my way to work this morning. They could use the relay tracks at the lower level of City Hall Station on the N and R lines. Those tracks for the most part just dead-end in each direction. Yeah they raise up to meet the local tracks, so the musem cars can have instant access to the rest of the system. So.....whats wrong with that idea?
I like the idea someone had of connecting the BMT and IRT City Hall stations. The IRT station would be the centerpiece of the museum, and the BMT station would hold the cars.
It's a nice idea, but it wouldn't gain much display space -- unless your proposal is to have one branch under City Hall, another branch on Schermerhorn Street, etc.
Thanks for remembering. My idea was run a tunnel from the south end of the BMT lower level beneath City Hall Park to the IRT City Hall Station, which would allow small exhibits both in the connecting tunnel and in the IRT station, along with showing people the city's first subway station as a "living museum" with trains still running through it (which would also require putting in some noise lowering glass walls next to the platform to keep the squealing down to a minimum and to keep any stray museum-goers from accidentally getting in the way of the No. 6 train).
The connection at the south end of the City Hall platform would allow all three lower level tracks to hold cars and for them to be moved in and out at any time. That would allow four to seven more trains to be on display than there are now (I'm assuming the lower platform at City Hall is old-time BMT length of 480 feet and not 600 like Court Street is), while making the museum more accessable to the general public, since it would be downstairs at an operating station and not located at a seperate enterance the way it current is at Court Street.
N and R trains could still use the lower level tracks north of City Hall for lay-ups, though I would think with the changeover on the Manny B traffic there would be less of a need to lay-up trains between Canal and City Hall than there is now, which would help solve some of the space sharing problem.
I don't know if the MTA could get a downtown Manhattan Transit Museum done in 2 1/2 years (once the terrorist bomb-fearing Rudy is out of City Hall), but it would be nice if they could put a rush job on the project and get it completed in time for the 100th anniversary of the subway in 2004.
Original BMT platforms, from some old literature I read in old issues of Engineering News-Record on microfilm at the Science, Industry & Business Library on Madison and 34th, were 530’ (some platforms being as short as 495’) – platform lengthening to (mostly) 615’ was pretty much done throughout the 1960’s and early ’70’s, I.I.N.M. Dual Contracts–era IRT platforms were 480’, and the original 1904-era platforms were 200’ for local and 350’ for express; all such platforms were lengthened, in the end, between c.1947 and the late 1960’s, to 525’.
The current museum platform – and believe me, I counted the chaining codes from beginning to end – stands, from end to end, 600’ long — sixty feet less than most IND stations. If it were 660’, there’d be, I suppose, one additional subway car on each platform.
I.I.N.M., in the last few years the only new addition to the cars currently on display at the Museum was R-16 #6387.
I hate to say this, but I think this is wishful thinking. Unless pushed very hard by the NY Times or oother influentials, nothing's liley to be saved of the married-apir Redbirds or Slants, etc., and they're certainly not likley to devote more space to the museum.
Their interest are in cutting costs, and if they had their way, I'm sure they'd shut down more existing lines. Giving up the City Hall storage space, even if there's enough lay-up capacity between there and City Hall, they ain't gonna do.
I'd love to be wrong about this. But I've heard it said that when you're a pessimist, you're never disappointed. You're either validated or pleasantly surprised!
Persaonnlly, I think the cars most worth saving are of course, Redbirds, Salnt R40s, and R32s. Maybe our friends at Shorelin can help out....
>>>...when you're a pessimist, you're never disappointed. <<<
Ain't THAT the TRUTH
Peace,
ANDEE
This was on my mind last night. Here's what I came up with:
The tracks at the Transit Museum lead to two dedicated platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Both tracks, between Court and H-S, could be filled with old cars without getting in the way of revenue service.
My idea is to extend the Court platform east, with removable bridges over the crossover just east of the station, splitting into two platforms where the A/C tracks come in and continuing to the H-S platforms. The current entrance to the museum would be closed. Museum patrons would pay the admission fee on the H-S mezzanine, proceed to one of the outer platforms, and walk to Court, where they could go up to the mezzanine to see the exhibits there. They'd then go back to the platform and go to the other outer platform at H-S, exiting the museum there. Both tracks would be lined with museum cars.
Of course, this isn't possible if the tracks between the two stations are close together -- anybody know if they are?
One incidental benefit is that the museum entrance would be inside an existing subway station. That would make the museum easier to get to and would give museum patrons a free ride home after their visit. It would also automatically advertise the museum to every Brooklyn A/C/G rider passing through the station.
They could have removable bridges (or open offside doors) to lead people to the catwalk (with a railing or fence), for a passageway between the two stations. The exhibits would only be within the confines of Hoyt and Court st stations. The entrance at Court would be retained, but they would use a HEET at the stairs to the side platforms, modified to deduct the museum's admission for entry, and since the stairs are within the fare control anyone who exits there gets a free ride home. The only annoying thing would be that it would be a long walk to switch platforms at Hoyt (though it would be interesting).
And what, pray tell, is wrong with the idea of RUNNING a museum train between the Court Exhibits and the H-S exhibits!
Now *there* is an idea that should fly!
Elias
Yeah, resurrect the Court St. Shuttle.
A very substantial part of the museum's revenue comes from the gift shop. This is one reason why fan trips make a stop there.
So, you could fill up one of the two tracks to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, e.g. the north track (A2).
A single car shuttle between the two stations would be real nice (grown of the motors, the ceiling fans turning, etc.), but who would operate it ? A TA operator ? I don't think the museum could afford that & I dought the TWU would allow even retired employees at the controls.
Mr t__:^)
A very substantial part of the museum's revenue comes from the gift shop. This is one reason why fan trips make a stop there.
So move the gift shop to the Hoyt mezzanine.
So, you could fill up one of the two tracks to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, e.g. the north track (A2).
Why not fill up both tracks?
A single car shuttle between the two stations would be real nice (grown of the motors, the ceiling fans turning, etc.), but who would operate it ? A TA operator ? I don't think the museum could afford that & I dought the TWU would allow even retired employees at the controls.
Really, what's the point? The stations are two or three blocks apart. That track space would be better used for more exhibits.
A running shuttle would likely force all the cars off one of the tracks at Court. If we're expanding capacity, why not go all the way and expand capacity to two tracks in and between two stations?
[Why not fill up both tracks?]
A1 for trains to arrive at museum, A2 for addl. displays.
[A running shuttle would likely force all the cars off one of the tracks at Court. If we're expanding capacity, why not go all the way and expand capacity to two tracks in and between two stations?]
My point was ... give tourists another reason to visit the museum, i.e. a short ride on an old train. Also you don't have to have the ENTIRE collection on disply all at one location, e.g. some of the "arch roof" cars could be in the shop being restored ... the Lo-Vs are getting a final check out before their trip, etc.
Mr t__:^)
What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different type of roadbeds and ties? I've noticed that putting the rails right on the concrete roadbed is the smoothest (a la 63rd St.). How much would it cost for the MTA to replace all of the roadbeds with concrete?
Dan
This type of track (putting rails right on the concrete) has been classified as Type VIII track. A different type of Type VIII design is omnipresent in the 57th Street–6th Avenue station. You will notice, however, that between 21st Street–Queensbridge and 36th Street, they use the conventional Type II track design (wooden half-ties imbedded in concrete). Since the IND construction in the 1920’s, the depth of roadbeds (from the so-called “base of rail” barometer) was set from end to end at 14”. (Whereas on the full-tie roadbeds on earlier underground track, it was 14” at the center and 12” on each end, and on the original 1904 IRT tracks the depth was a mere 10”, which explains why they use 5” deep ties on the 72nd Street–Broadway reconstruction project.)
In terms of having all the tracks as all-concrete, I’d venture it’d be more expensive than the tried-and-true half-ties in concrete construction.
i went up the ramp today in my bike. all i saw was a whole bunch of deadbirds and 3 silver cars and they were the EP working cars. thats it. i dont know if you people saw a EP car and thought it was an r62 or that car is inside the garage or somthing happened to it. i saw NO r62a in the yard
and if there is a r62a please take a picture of it and post it. i really want to see it.
@...thank you ! ( me too ) !!
how about a pnoto trevor logan ?
@...thank you ! ( me too ) !!
how about a photo trevor logan ?
I have reviewed with interest the sub talk comments re: the Third Avenue El - Manhattan but MOSTLY Bronx. As one who rode it IN MANHATTAN and Bronx
frequently,and lived 100 feet from an uptown
Manhattan stationhouse of the El, I feel some
facts are in order;
EL A HAZZARD TO AUTO TRAFFIC - auto traffic in the eary to mid 50's in upper Manhattan was a tiny fraction as to what is has become from the 1970's to present (2001) Most of the human traffic in rush hours were carried by the 3rd Ave El Express and local trains on the el quickly & reliably ABOVE the
avenue - and the streetcars ( to Nov. 1946)and later red and cream MACK Surface Transportation System
busses carried the balance of short haul commuters.
During the day, traffic was light - mosty delivery
trucks, taxis (those huge old DeSoto Barges) and
the occasional neighbor with his car on the street for local errands. After 8PM the avenue and sidestreets were quiet - not as unbelievably noisy and hectic as my old Yorkville ex-neighborhood is presently ALL day until 3AM - reminds me of Times Square on a summer Friday night! Drivers-- as was society back then-- were more conservative and responsible - most people (especially under age 30) didnt own a car - and those that did kept them parked most of the time to save their parking space during the day - and took the EL (or subway on Lex) to get to work.
The explosion of 30 + story apartment buildings on
the Avenue (as other avenues have seen also) have jammed more people into square footage than the tenements ever did---and the busses along Third Ave today are mired in gridlock traffic like all other
vehicles. The El moved people quickly and there were LESS people per capita in the 50's along 3rd
Ave.
That little "greaser' Mayor LaGuardia, despised the
els and streetcars. He infact caused legislation to be passed outlawing pre-century (steam era) Els
and streetcar lines by mid 1960. What his back door connections to the General Motors Bus Div, Oil and Rubber Tire Cartels were - we wont know for sure - but GM was known to be instrumental in eliminating any form of non-bus (ie RAIL) transport from most
US Cities (remember National City lines - etc.)
The City back in BRT Hylands' day (he a Mayor of the City back in the BRT days) was interested in the
City Takeover of public rail transit - and that ongoing mentality is probably what caused the City
powers not to ever allow either the IRT or BMT a fare increase thru their corporate lifetimes. If you
want to buy a company cheaply - and can control how that company gets its revenues -you do what the City did and with no fare raises since 1904 (the 5 cent fare) - the IRT and BMT went Bankrupt. In June 1940
the City picked up both and with the City's own competing IND Line - formed the N Y City Transit
System under the NYC Board of Transportation.
Laguardia got his wish by shutting down the 9th & 2nd Ave els (2nd above 60th St) and the BMT Fulton Street El from east NY to Brooklyn Bridge. It is common knowledge that a good portion of the 6th Ave. El scrap steel and all of the 60th Street to Harlem River 2nd ave. El steel was sold to Japan pre-
WWII - and it is suspected that Japan sent us back a part of that steel in Pearl Harbor Bombs. Our TAX
DOLLARS at work even back then.
Anyway - the City made money on transit during the WWII years with tremendous ridership figures - and of course, on any remaining routes desired to be abandoned - only the most rudimentary upkeep was done. This affected the Third Ave El without doubt.
After the War, the City started talking about a 2nd Ave. subway to replace the el - and studies were
gotten underway. However, the City wanted out of the El, but public pressure to keep it UNTIL it was
replaced was quite evident. This type of pressure from Queens kept the 2nd Ave. EL below 59th Street - but LaGuardia found a loophole in the war scrap drive and offered the remaining part of that EL to the War Board with flag waving patriotic tactics
ie: it would be UN-AMERICAN to keep that el for those who needed it in light of the good of the country - his crock of S--- considering he beat the drums for years before the war to get rid of the els and trolleys! Of course, mid 1942 was the end of the remainder of 2nd Ave. El, as we know thanks to the Little (weed) Flower.
With deferred maintenance, the 3rd Ave. EL in 1950 still scored high marks in ridership fares despite
a drop in mass transit ridershiip countrywide as Americans took to their autos again - so how to get rid of the El when it was generating significant
income with deferred maintenance --
STEP A -- Close down the very busy South Ferry
Branch affecting tens of thousands of daily AM & PM
rush hour riders from the teeming Wall Street areas
affecting ferry Riders to points north and the local
working class office-workers in the area. This was done in late 1950. Let them take the IRT subway nearby- we still get their fares but it doesnt go to the EL fare revenue records.
STEP B -- Close down the Bergen Cutoff of the El at the Bronx 143rd St Station - connecting the El to
the White Plains Road Line for ONE SEAT ride from downtown to those stations on the WH PL RD El. They
will take the IRT Lex subway for a one seat ride - we get their fare and the el fare records lose it.
STEP C -- close down in 1953 - the City Hall Branch from the El mainline at Chatham Square. Tens of Thousands of daily AM & PM commuters to Municipal Bldg, City Hall, the Courts, City Hall Post Office - surrounding office buildings - let them pay an EXTRA FARE for a bus along Park Row to the EL terminal at Chatham Square - then they can WALK UP the equivalent of 5 flights to the Stub-ended Chatham Square El Platform of the truncated ex-South ferry
3rd Ave.Line route. Nah --they will hop the IRT subway Lex line at Brooklyn Bridge to upper Manhattan or the Bronx 3rd Ave. El at 149th street for their EL rides north of there. And YESSS - we have an ESCALATOR for them at 149th Street to make it user friendly! That way, we can siphon more fare registers from the EL books - and we still get the
fares into our pockets via the LEX route fare figures - no loss to anything EXCEPT the El!
STEP D - Some plans were quitely proposed to the
NYCTS (soon to become the NYCTA) in 1952 to re-arrange the Chatham Square 3rd Ave. El terminal
facilities by running the el down south from Canal Street to the 3 lower level tracks - with center express track coming to a " Y " with the local tracks at the Division St. area - and running into the abandoned, ex 2nd Ave. EL LOWER LEVEL station
platform on the former South Ferry route structure - and under the present stub terminal above (at the 5th floor tenement building height) With the 2nd Ave. El gone, but over-sufficient under-track supporting girderwork in place at the junction area -this was feasible - It would entail re-tracking the
two lower level 2nd ave. track girder sets (tracks removed in late 1940's) and replacing some of the
removed platform planking on the lower level. The stationhouse at the Division St. end of the platform was still in use on the lower level for fare-goers
to pay and climb up to the top level. This arrangement would allow the entire upper level to be
removed from below Canal Street to the terminal's
southern end over St. James Street. Supplies in use on the upper level could be re-loacted (tracks,etc.)
to the lower level and the upper level scrap steel would pay for the project in salvage money.
NOOOOPE --- too accomodating to the public - we want to INCONVENIENCE them when it comes to the 3rd Ave El. We WANT to get rid of -not encourage or
recapture - lost el ridership. Why give them a 2nd story platform access - let them go to the old 5 story high platform or USE THE LEX LINE. We STILL
get their fare!!
ANOTHER PLAN as a concession to closing the City Hall Branch - was to keep one OR BOTH of the City Hall Branch Chatham Square Station dual island-platforms (one to the south was the ex-2nd Ave Line 2 track platform - the north was the still used 3rd Ave Line platform - both sets at the same
2nd story level) as a NEW Chatham Square terminal by having the 3rd Ave El trains follow their usual lower level ramp tracks below Canal street into this proposed terminal. Then demolish the upper level
(South Ferry "Division St.Flyover")twin tracks and
5 story double deck St. James Street (ex South Ferry Branch) structure entirely --along with the Park Row City Hall branch beyond the new terminal platforms. The final plan would be to keep the existing 3rd ave. El City Hall Branch/ Chatham Square single platform as a 2-track terminal, and tear down the EX-2nd Ave El abandoned south platform and track structure along with the St. James and City Hall Park Row structures for a simple, cleaner more
compact arrangement. NOooooooo - we want the el to look disfigured, dismembered and unsightly - the more PR in our favor to have it torn down down ENTIRELY under blight removal. So these Park Row-Chatham Square community enhancement plans were
quietly proposed and just as quietly dismissed as--
'We are going to tear it down in a year or so anyway - so just sit tight!"
STEP E - The Final Blow - in 1953 (I think late
1953) the El CEASED ALL SERVICE below Bronx 149th Street Station ALL WEEKDAY NIGHTS (7PM appx to 6AM appx) + ALL WEEKENDS (7PM appx. Friday to 6AM Appx. Monday) and ALL PUBLIC HOLIDAYS. This was in effect to the final day May 12, 1955. Now this really drove
the last tens of thousands away. Not to mention the
late shift factory workers
Thanks for the rundown, Joe. The City just about "wrote the book" on slowly destroying a mass transit resource until complete abandonment was "the only feasible alternative."
Now they have a hard time even closing a single station. What comes around goes around.
That's a very interesting perspective. About the only thing not mentioned was the fact that the IND subway was planned to replace the elevated lines, particularly on Sixth and Ninth Avenues in Manhattan, and Fulton Street in Brooklyn.
"That little 'greaser' Mayor LaGuardia, despised the els and streetcars. He infact caused legislation to be passed outlawing pre-century (steam era) Els and streetcar lines by mid 1960. What his back door connections to the General Motors Bus Div, Oil and Rubber Tire Cartels were - we wont know for sure - but GM was known to be instrumental in eliminating any form of non-bus (ie RAIL) transport from most US Cities (remember National City lines - etc.)"
I don't know that LaGuardia had to be in anyone's back pocket to oppose els and streetcars. There were a lot of people at the time who honestly believed that els and streetcars were old-fashioned and obsolete and that a modern progressive city had to replace els with subways and streetcars with buses. NO mayor wants his city to be considered behind the times and hidebound.
The attitude that you had to have the latest thing and totally scrap the last thing was certainly not new. Remember that the streetcars were themselves the replacement for cable cars and horse cars once THEY were considered obsolete. For example, Chicago installed an extensive cable car system in the 1880s and '90s -- largest in the world -- and was replacing it with streetcar lines already by 1906!
And you REALLY don't want to go in the direction your "greaser" comment takes things!
Moses was also opposed to rail systems that's why he covered the whole city with those damm highways thats cloged to the hilt with cars and trucks, it was stated in a series on the highway system in New York he hated the rail transit systems,thought that they had no busness in cities,one of his underlings spoke in favor of the rail transit system and was fired on the spot,this was on a pbs ststion a few years ago,the power that people like this has should stop,have more groups of people decide what works best,it may take a little longer but we may be better off in the long run.
KARL- HI !! THIS RESPONSE WAS INTENDED TO RESPOND TO THE GENTLEMAN WHOSE NAME I CANT RECALL (he ended it with "ESQ.") but I patched it onto your thread in error and cant "re-paste" it to him without losing the text entirely. It is a response to him and NOT YOU - but thanks for your supportive posting - PS I am still looking for that photo in Ridgewood for you per your email to me - regards - Joe!
RESPONSE RE: 3rd Ave El / Mayor LaGuardia
While I can readily accept that LaGuardia for all
intents and purposes was a good mayor for the City and this is documented in many other aspects of his administrative policies and etc., he was somewhat short sighted in the needs of the people re: moving
large masses quickly, safely and economically.
YES - he built the IND systems which paralleled and replaced the 6th and 9th Ave. Els and the Fulton St. (BMT) El resulting in a more modern transit mode replacing those old els....but the East Side of Manhattan was growing steadily before and even more so AFTER the War (WWII) - and replacing Els and streetcars with busses was not cost effective. It is well known that streetcars lasted longer than busses
(do you see any 1940 era busses still plying the streets) but the very modern PCC car of the mid to
late 30's to late 40's were still running in many cities well into the 70's and 80's - and are still running in California !! Streetcars dont pollute - but besides that, back in the 30's and 40's, busses were small, cramped, slow while streetcars could move faster (accelerate faster) -handle more people than the busses of the time - and were far ahead of busses (PCC cars) in "modernity" for their time.
Its is strange that New york City government saw fit to want to remove them wholesale but many other cities, big cities, Ie: Boston, Phila, San Fran and Los Angeles to name a few (Pittsburgh, Pa) resisted
the bustitution movement and replaced old streetcars with the modern PCC types. I havent even mentioned CANADIAN CITIES still operating "old fashioned ??) streetcars of the PCC and newest light rail types. Northern New Jersey started a new streetcar light rail line - and many other cities have adapted to the newest LRV (light rail vehicles) streetcar technology.
When you want (Ie; City Government wants) to effect "urban renewal" - you dont take 20 blocks along one avenue - displace all the commercial and residential inhabitants - demolish everything along that stretch - and leave vacant lots for the next 40 years !!
This is what happened in a similar vein when the 2nd Ave. subway was promised - the 3rd Ave El was "set up" thru low end minimal maintenance and service cuts and route branch abandonments - to become viewed unfairly as the "problem" to be eradicated - and here we are almost 50 years AFTER the 2nd Ave Subway was (plans were) drawn up - and no subway. Yet the East Side of Manhattan has expolded in growth unlike any other part of Manhattan Island - and the remaining Lex subway facing its ONE HUNDREDTH anniversary in 2004 - is taxed to beyond capacity in 2001 !! While you are correct that I should not focus blame on LaGuardia - (and I really, honestly DO NOT) -- it is in fact history that LaGuardia in his haste to "modernise" the City transit infastructure - was part of the group of prior and later (to his administration) politico's who contributed to the congested roads via Mr.Moses of the TBTA and removal of quite well functioning transit lines BEFORE replacing them. Even as it
struggled under its 5 cent fare fiasco for 40 + years, the BMT was innovative in producing revolutionary "modern" transit sets (the Blue Bird fleet of 1936 - the Green Hornet set, the Budd
Zephyr set )- and was instrumental in development of the PCC car with the PCC Committee - New York Governrment powers-that-were rendered no support or assistance as the plan was to run these private operators out of business - capture the systems for the City to run - and do as it pleased - ie: remove
els without replacing them, and order twice as many busses to replace the streetcar fleet.
Getting back to our urban renewal theme above - what do you think the public would say if those houses I mentioned being removed resulted in vacant lots for
40+ years when NEW housing was promised to immediately replace the "old, antiquated eyesores?"
It is not so much with nostalgia for the 3rd Ave. El and its demise that is the focus of this subject - it is the fact that the money was earmarked in the mid 50's for a 2nd Ave. Subway - but the money was
re-directed to other projects in defiance of what
the East Side really needed - the el's replacement with that subway, just as was done with 6th, 9th and Fulton Street els. We havent even spoken about the 2nd Ave. El - it is fact that City government
rationalised the removal of THAT el because the 3rd Ave El and the Lex Subway could handle that lines'
riders. What was the "rationale" of tearing down the 3rd Ave El re: ITS REPLACEMENT (ie: replacement was never built) - just 40 years of promises, expensive surveys and studies one after another - and finally the powers that be that ran the City FOR THE PEOPLE went broke in the early 70's in the initial midst of starting that 2nd Ave. Subway - parts which have been abandoned for almost 30 years to date - taxpayer city, State & Federal funds
squandered. No, you are right - I should not have taken Laguardia to task - he was only a small gear in the machinery of government mentality that for all its assumed good intentions - was sorely misquided on many issues - probably with persons
who wanted to promote their own agendas. Mr. Moses with his unbelievably powerful political base -got
most if not all his road, highway and Bridge projects done - we have NEVER heard of highways closed and abandoned and not replaced - or bridges
removed and not replaced - that would be unthinkable but transit has always been a sort of "stepchild" .
Remember, the Els were built to replace the congested horse-drawn street traffic of the 1870's
and did their job well. There are still many els in
Bronx, Brooklyn & Queens - funny - the City never forced the New York Central RR to abandon its Park Avenue "EL & Viaduct" structures existing today from 96th Street to 132nd street. Chicago
retained its 1880 era downtown el and branch systems
and so did Philadelphia which just finished rebuilding a major portion of its "antiquated" 1915 el - and that line has the highest revenue loads of the system per SEPTA commuter figures -so who really is shortsighted??
In retrospect, it was unfair and presumptious of me
to lay this all on LaGuardia and in reviewing my
original text, I must extend an apology and offer
credulity to the man for the good he did accomplish
during his Mayoral years. Regarding Transit, he did
effect those IND subways which replaced aforementioned old el lines which is a positive - if only to compete for city fares with the two "private
owned IRT & BMT Companies" to hasten - along with the unmanageable 5-cent fare - their demise and take-over by purchase by the City. However, with the gridlocked traffic patterns of the City these present days - and the wear and tear on these
roads, highways and bridges / tunnels - some in their 50 to 100 year-old age-spans presently - not
to forget the polution afterproduct - where IS the
relevant foresight to alleviate this mass chaos
of "movement of the masses" quickly, cleanly and
safely? Rail transit, both City and Regional is
preventing utter shutdown (total gridlock) simply by its ability to move millions daily on fast,safe
rail private right of ways un-obstructed by the very
chaos that busses are subject to -road and street
congestion. You can send more volume of water thru a series of pipes quicker than carrying it piece-meal style in hundreds of buckets. I rest my case. The missing 2nd Ave. subway after 50 years (1951 to
2001) is very much like the 20 hypothetical vacant
blocks I posed earlier - A nightmare to all denied
use of the terrain. I do appreciate your and the
other two sub-talk comments on my original report.
It is refreshing to see intelligent imput from
well versed individuals in this forum !!
THANK YOU !!
>>> but the East Side of Manhattan was growing steadily before and even more so AFTER the War (WWII) - and replacing Els and streetcars with busses was not cost effective. It is well known that streetcars lasted longer than busses
...
Its is strange that New york City government saw fit to want to remove them wholesale but many other cities, big cities, Ie: Boston, Phila, San Fran and Los Angeles to name a few (Pittsburgh, Pa) resisted <<<
When you look at the post war era, you have to consider that was a time when automobiles again came on the market, and there was a lot of pressure from the driving public to get the streetcars and their tracks off the streets. Although you mention a few cities that did not get rid of streetcars (you need to substitute Cleveland for Los Angeles), many many more did.
>>> This is what happened in a similar vein when the 2nd Ave. subway was promised - the 3rd Ave El was "set up" thru low end minimal maintenance and service cuts and route branch abandonments - to become viewed unfairly as the "problem" to be eradicated - and here we are almost 50 years AFTER the 2nd Ave Subway was (plans were) drawn up - and no subway. Yet the East Side of Manhattan has expolded in growth unlike any other part of Manhattan Island <<<
Perhaps you are mixing cause and effect when you say that the 3rd Avenue El was set up through low end minimal maintenance. Although planning may be long term, budgeting the money is always a year to year thing, and there is never enough money to do everything. I suggest that the low maintenance on the 3rd Ave El was more because it was believed that the 2nd Ave subway would be replacing it soon, rather than an attempt to force its removal. The 2nd Ave subway just kept being put off when other projects (including the expressways) seemed more important.
As far as who was the prime mover in the tear down of the El without waiting until the 2nd Ave Subway was built, I suggest you follow the money. Take a look at this photo of the 3rd Ave El looking North from 34th Street, and this one looking South. I'm sure if you look at the same area today you will see many changes which came about after the El was torn down. I have not done the research, but I bet that if you looked back in the records you will find that much of the real estate along 3rd Avenue changed hands in the years before the demise of the El, and a great deal of development took place after the El was torn down with huge profits to the owners of the real estate. Perhaps the explosion of growth on the East Side is a result of the demise of the El, rather than in spite of it.
Tom
The area between Cooper Square and 14th Street was one of the last sections of Third Ave. to be "gentrified" (yuppified, whatever). Traces of the way the avenue was when the el was there lasted into the late 1980s. Now, the only sections where the el was that retain a bit of their pre-1955 look is the Bowery north of Canal and a few spots north of 96th Street.
Hi TOM ! Thanks for your imput and the color views of the El N & S from 34th Street - the station my Dad was Station Master in the 30's. An interesting point you brought up caused my memory to jog to a New York Times article in the Real Estate section of the Feb. 7, 1956 issue headlined "Thrd Avenue Blossoms as El Disappears". When the Socony-Mobil
Oil Company's new office building on the Southwest corner of 3rd & 42nd St. - being built since late 1954 - opend its doors for its new Headquarters in late 1955 (el stopped on May 12th and demolition began in mid Aug, 1955) at 150 E. 42nd St - executives stated how they demanded from the City
and NYCTA that the EL be closed along with immediate demolition BEFORE their new headquarters building was completed !! Sounds like just the point you were making - and re-enforces a point my article
posed about the GM Bus Div, Rubber tire and Oil
Cartel appearing to be anti-rail transit (unless we consider rail DIESELS which replaced steam engines for oil-fired motive power) - and yes, Real Estate boomed on 3rd Ave., but NOT anywhere near that scope on 2nd,(& lst below 23rd St)- or 9th Avenues after their els went - nor 6th Avenue except in the midtown area which had a number of huge pieces of
residential and commercial real estate happening at the close of the 6th Ave El in 1938. Fulton St. in Brooklyn didnt explode in new development after
WWII and its el removal in 1940-41. I am sure that there was a lot of lobbying by Real Estate owners, speculators and developers towards the City to remove the el for their Real-Estate related profits and ventures - quoting my article re: Laguardia and
people who.."had their own agendas...". But who was
sitting in the transt planning seats to figure out how to move the expected huge expansion of population migrating to these new corporate towers along 3rd Avenue to work within - and reside in the residential towers likewise - after the el was removed PREMATURE to its replacement 2nd ave. subway?? You stated that there was not money (in your posting) from time to time to build the subway - but by 1955 there was 500 million approx. set aside for transit and the Subway - but AFTER the el was demolished and obviously not re-storable - the money was spent on other transit venues including upgrades and signals and platform expansions on the Lex Line to "hopefully" handle the the 25 Million (TA figures from year 1954-alone AFTER its many truncations since 1950 as I noted in my posting ) DISPLACED EL riders AFTER the El closing.
Figures for 1946 for the el's annual ridership "PRE 1950 truncations" per the NYCTS (pre NYCTA) were - get this - 86 MILLION riders !! That is a 61 million drop of fares in 8 years - caused by many things - people relocating to outlying areas from Manhattan, systemwide ridership drop due to auto - taxi and
Commuter rail and bus use - migration from the city
to live and work in suburbia - and per the el, those major route and service truncations helped a lot but it is suspected that many of those lost el riders did indeed elect to take the subway routes nearby
to their points of residential egress - monies still going into another turnstile or farebox of the same NYCTS-TA system---but by design - not credited to the el turnstile coffers. The City cited as reasons to close the el - millions needed to rehab it - siginificant fare losses (WHO DONT KNOW DAT!!) and
due to fare loss to the el, revenue loss to maintain the el - ie: each route must support as much of its expense and upkeep as possible from its own-produced
revenue to be considered cost-effective to retain. It was closed based upon those "official" reasons given to the Courts handling the issue back then.
The fares the el lost to the subways for "one seat ride" convenience via branch-service and hour (nights, weekend) cutbacks caused higher earning
levels on those subway route ledgers to also help fund projects for those lines - while consquently removing those same fares from the el income-ledgers
to substantiate the planned wail to the court of "lost ridership and revenues on the el...cant pay to run and maintain it - must close it - its 80 years old!
There was significant public and TWU support which got the courts involved to stall the TA from closing the el as early as 1953 !! The whole bottom line of what my posting(s) are trying to point to - other than nostalgia -is FORGET the el. Even if it were retained - a massive overhaul would have completely
removed the quaint wood el cars, Swiss-Chalet stations and stairways - and like Phila, New York and Chicago to name a few cities - major rebuilding would have produced modern lightweight rolling stock, totally built-new stations - structural improvements - street widening & blacktop paving below and modern lighting to the street as was done AFTER the el was closed - and finally an attractive coat of paint like els were given elsewhere only a few years later. The El as we knew it - a victorian landmark and treasure - would have
been transformed into a modern pleasing and well
used facility as downtown Chicago still uses. In the
absence of all that - the Second Avenue subway should have been built and would have been running like all other city transit lines DURING the City's
fiscal crisis of 1972-3 and would not have its few small sections built, then sitting abandoned for 30 years to date. Politicians are elected and paid to represent the interests of the constituents who
provide them the job - and provide the revenues for their salaries by taxes. I guess its the big money special-interest taxpayers (ie: real estate developers and such) who in the end get what they want first. Ever try to rent a reasonably priced
apartment in or around 3rd Avenue (or Manhattan, for that matter) lately IF you can find one that is!!
It wasnt like that when I was there long ago - I lived by 3rd Ave. - $55.00 for 3 1/2 rooms off an el station in a then-quiet and clean block in 1955. You could not even rent a DESK SPACE for that today in a streetcorner cardboard box! The same apartment I used to live in 46 years ago now rents (in an 1880 era building, tho well maintained) for $1450 a month - and you WALK up 5 flights of stairs and put YOUR airco units in the windows. Figure the markup ratio from 55 to 1450 dollars over 46 years - and regarding the "people served" - whose agendas are really being promoted and by whom ??!
PS: Tom - do you hav any more color or B&W shots of the el - possibly in the Yorkville section - 76th to 89th St. areas? If so, we can work a deal out or discus it via email. THANKS FOR YOUR IMPUT POSTING!
>>> do you hav any more color or B&W shots of the el - possibly in the Yorkville section <<<
The pictures I posted were from the elevated rail section of this site.
Tom
I bet that if you looked back in the records you will find that much of the real estate along 3rd Avenue changed hands in the years before the demise of the El, and a great deal of development took place after the El was torn down with huge profits to the owners of the real estate. Perhaps the explosion of growth on the East Side is a result of the demise of the El, rather than in spite of it.
From Manhattan '45, by the British travel writer Jan Morris:
But the most interesting thing about the [Third Avenue] El was the particular sort of life that it engendered down below. Much of Third Avenue was cast in perpetual shadow by the presence of this mechanism, which kept real estate prices down but preserved for the thoroughfare the style of an earlier Manhattan ... the sidewalks were lined, even in midtown, with small, unpretentious and sometimes shady shops ... with cut-rate hairdressers and thrift shops and sellers of dog-eared girlie magazines ... It was a street that servicemen gravitated to when they wanted to get drunk without too much expense, and it smelt of malt, and cigar smoke, and the varied vapors that were trapped within its cavities.
>>> the sidewalks were lined, even in midtown, with small, unpretentious and sometimes shady shops ... with cut-rate hairdressers and thrift shops and sellers of dog-eared girlie magazines ... <<<
That is certainly the way I remembered the stretch between 34th and 42nd streets when I moved away from there in 1948. I went back to the neighborhood in the summer of 1956 to see what it looked like without the El, and I couldn't recognize it from all the changes that had already taken place.
Tom
Hi Tom - so you are also a 3rd Ave boy - we have much in common as I can relate to your rememberences of the shops and stores and everything was up the block, around the corner, and for a small tip - some stores would deliver - even up 5 flights of steps.
I had to do the errands for my mom whom I lived with and all the stores were along the el up or down from "my" station as I recall designating it - and it was like being in a small town with your own personal
transit line taking you to the far reaches of wherever.People today cant imagine riding from South Ferry or City Hall/Chatham Square as a kid or adult----to the almost end of the Bronx (via change to Wh Pls Rd El at Gun Hill to 241st st) ABOVE
ground to see 18 + miles of city go by - the sun, rain, snow - for a nickel, dime or later 15 cents
FIFTEEN CENTS !!! Any no burned out neighborhoods,
muggers and sub hamanites or molesters hiding in every nook and cranny waiting to spring on someone
for a drug fix (getting "paid" is what they call it in street lingo!) and just feeling secure and safe!
The shops and stores knew the neighbors and we knew them and we looked out for each other. Most stores had people employed who lived in the area and worked for YEARS in the same place. No pink or green hairstyles and jewelry items sticking out of their noses, tounges, eyebrows and god knows where else-
just average everyday regular down to earth people.
I have no fearful memories growing up thru the 40's and 50's - I cant even imagine what unfortunate young kids and people have to go thru in many urban
neighborhoods since the 70's ducking drug gunfire, drug dealers in and around their neighborhoods & schools, doped up cretins roaming the neighborhood to get "paid" - I cant IMAGINE what these poor kids have to circumvent daily just to get by day to day - --or their parents for that matter! And -- you
know I am not talking about the Park-Madison & Fifth
Avenue 59th to 96th Street neighborhoods!! They are still as civilized as I remember them being way back when. Yes, times have changed - and our memories are as foreign to those younger than us -as the steam engine El era was to us. You have to have BEEN there
to understand. Do you not agree?
>>> I have no fearful memories growing up thru the 40's and 50's - I cant even imagine what unfortunate young kids and people have to go thru in many urban neighborhoods since the 70's <<<
I guess you were lucky. My memories were not so rosy. I was a latch key kid for as long as I can remember, and went to P.S. 116 on 33rd Street between 2nd and 3rd Avenue. I spent my share of time in the principal's office for fighting. I joined a neighborhood gang for protection, and although I felt safe between 3rd Avenue and the East River, and 28th Street to 38th Street, I avoided going into other neighborhoods. I also felt safe on any of the big streets such as 34th Street or the avenues, but I avoided side streets where kids lived in the tenements. Walking down one of those side streets and running into a group of kids hanging around a stoop who did not know you could easily earn you a beating. I did feel safe on the El and the subways, and in Central Park up to the reservoir during the daytime. It was after I was found carrying a "shiv" in the 3rd grade for protection that my parents decided the Midwest would be a better place for me to grow up.
Tom
Third Ave. between 23rd and 33rd Streets did "gentrify" about 10- to 15-years later than the areas just to the north or south, and really didn't start changing until the late 1970s. Buildings north of 34th became more business-oriented in the late 1950s-early 1960s, while the area between 23rd down to about 16th benifitted from being close to Grammercy Park and the arrival of the new 13th Precinct and the NYC Police Academy on 20th and 21st Streets in the mid-1960s.
My uncle grew up in lower Manhatten then went to the east side and was a gang member of i think the "hudson dusters" gang,this was i think in the early 20's he had some hellish stories he told me about the gangs of those days.
The "Gas House" district, roughly between 14th and 25th streets south of Bellvue and east of Third Ave., was a pretty nasty place up through the start of World War II. That made it easy for Robert Moses to target it for the Metropolitan Life Insruance to develop most of the area into Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village. And remember, the area used to have an el running right through it, since the Second Ave. line did an `S' curve at 23rd St. and headed down to Chatham Square via First Ave. and Allen Street.
Chicago was replacing it (cable) with streetcar lines already by 1906!
Chicago refused to allow the Chicago City Railroad to replace the cable until 1906. The company petitioned the City for permission to convert as early as 1898, but was refused. In rebuttal CCR alloted only 33% of the prior maintenance amount to the cable system, by 1906 the equipment was literally falling apart.
It was partially due to the City's short-sightedness that unification, which generally happened in the late 1890's or early 1900's in most cites didn't happen in Chicago until 1914 operationaly and until the CTA era for organizational consolidation
What you say is true. It is a common oversimplification to
ascribe complex social phenomena to a fairy tale like agency
of evil conspiracy, as in "if only LaGuardia hadn't been born,
streetcars would still be running on Broadway".
It is understandable that railfans would villify anyone who
was in favor of or facilitated removal of rail services. The
only true evil is the vanity and short sightedness of mankind
in general.
While I disagree with the ethnic slur againt LaG, the posting does provide a credible chronology of the city's DELIBERATELY reducing ridership, so as to say the line's unnecssary. They still do that sort of crap- like reducing and reducing service along Centre St/Eastern Division, thta way the say we dont' need it anymore.
Certainly, with the Christie St connection pretty much dead for a few years, addtional, all-day "M" serivce would get a lot of use, I'm sure, especially out of the almost deserted Bowery Station (onceunder the old El, I belive?)
24 min headways + bus speed service, one would be hard pressed to find better alternatives.
Arti
Nice job, Joe.
Chicago still has their el's, and it defines "The Loop." No word yet on when they'll be replaced.
Sometime ago i saw the info posted on here about where to send $$ to get the large station map of the system.
Anybody have that info handy for a friend of mine?
Thanks
You might try the Transit Museum in Brooklyn 718-243-8601. They sometimes have such items for sale. If you are ordering by phone ask what they are giving away with your $30 order ... I got a subway side wall adv. on 5 years of MetroCards a few years back.
Mr t__:^)
The map costs $10.00. I don't know if the TM will mail one out (they are not really set up for mail orders). The best thing to do (if you Mike are in the NYC area is to buy it for your friend (let him send you the $$) and them mail it to him.
I suggest something flowery. Unless you like pine trees. If you like pine trees, you can odor your map like a pine tree by rubbing it with one of those pine tree air fresheners they sell at the car wash.
-Hank
I have thought of the best way to use the GE GOH R-32s. Save them for spare parts or even use them for a test train. Since they are probably in good shape except for the A/C units that were manufactured by a company that is now defunct they are probably perfectly usable. Why throw them away if use can use them for something.
BMTJeff
Scrap them? Did I miss another notice on the bulletin board?
I think that you did. In one post there is a plan to scrap the GE GOH R-32s along with the R-38s. Since the MK GOH R-32s are not expected to be scrapped anytime soon it would be a good idea to save the GE GOH R-32s as spare parts.
BMTJeff
The purchase of the R38's, which I guess one could call the "cheap clones" of the R32's, is a shame. No surprise if the older but sturdier R32's outlast them.
I have noticed of late that some of the R38's have had their (rusty) roofs painted gray. It doesn't really improve their appearance; I assume that was done to prevent or slow down further rusting.
When the R32 was built, New Yorkers had a choice of interiors for it. One was the R32 interior. The other was the R38 interior. I guess they liked the R32 interior more and that was on the R32. The alternate interior was used on the R38. I'm guessing the R32GEs were the cars with the "alternate" interior.
I've never heard that before. What I HAVE heard (and there's a paragraph and a picture on page 13 of NYC Transit's 1964-65 annual report) is that four types of subway car ventilating systems (really variations on fans) were tested on a train at the 34th Street-Sixth Avenue station. This was after the R-32s were ordered, but before all of them were in. None was a clear-cut favorite, but the one that came closest was ordered for the last 150 R-32s, and subsequently was ordered for the R-38s and R-40s (before the contracts were changed to include air conditioning on the last 10 R-38s and the last 200 R-40s [100 of which became R-40Ms]).
As to what the R-32GEs were/are, in the mid-1980s NYCT was replacing or rebuilding its entire fleet. However, the R-32 fleet had some cracking around the door sills, and there were questions as to whether the cars could be rebuilt. As a test of an engineering fix, NYC Transit designed a contract for the overhaul of 10 cars. General Electric's Buffalo Transit Services won the contract and rebuilt the cars around the time it was rebuilding the R-38s (hence the similar interior appointments). The fix worked, the rest of the cars went out for bid, and this time Morrison-Knudsen won the contract. Unfortunately, the air conditioning compressor cradles on the 10 R-32GE cars are defective, so the air conditioning is not operated (anybody out there know whether the compressors have been removed?). As "Train Dude" explained in a post several months ago, fixing the problem would involve replacing not only the cradles, but pretty much all of the equipment, something that apparently has been deemed too expensive to be worth doing.
David
David, you were absolutely correct about the R-32 fan 'vote'. I remember walking through the cars and then voting. It was a real crap-shoot with no clear-cut advantage to any one design.
As for the interiors of the R-32 and R-38, I have the "Passenger Car Data, 1947 - 1976" in front of me. The photos of the R-32A and R-38 are identical. The R-32s had seperate main light lenses while the R-32a & R-38 had main light lenses that held translucent advertising signs. That's the only cosmetic difference I see.
And the fan covers, which as it turned out cut downward air circulation and spread soot in a circular pattern all over the ceilings of the R-32a, R-38s and (especially) the non-ACed R-40s, which were the hottest things on the planet until their GOH.
I know of only one interior difference between the R-32 and the R-38 today: the handholds. (The ones on the R-38 are better for short people since they curve downward by the doors. Problems aside, that's also why I like the CI-GOH R-42.) Of course, the handholds date from GOH, not initial production.
My apologies, sir. My mistake. I thought those decisions were still made by the MTA Board and the TA and not 'fiat' from posters on subtalk.
From the description of the 2000-2004 Capital Program on the MTA Website:
"The agency will also purchase 660 B division cars ($1.277 billion). This includes 607 cars to replace cars from the R40, R42, R32GE and R38 car series, which are at the end of their useful lives. Another 53 will be purchased to expand the B division fleet to accommodate ridership growth."
The 660 cars are the R-160s.
David
"The agency will also purchase 660 B division cars ($1.277 billion). This includes 607 cars to replace cars from the R40, R42, R32GE and R38 car series, which are at the end of their useful lives. Another 53 will be purchased to expand the B division fleet to accommodate ridership growth."
There are 10 R32-GE's; 200 R38's; 300 R40's; 100 R40M's; 400 R42's for a total of 1010 cars.
There will be 212 R143's and 660 R160's for a total 872.
That's a fleet contraction of 138 cars. If the self-promotion is true and they want to raise the fleet total about 10%, then they will need an additional 240 cars.
Am I missing something?
Yes. As has been stated here many, many times, in addition to the 212 R-143 cars not replacing anything (which is why I didn't mention them at all in my previous response), the 660 R-160 cars are scheduled to replace cars in the R-32GE through R-42 car classes -- but not ALL cars in the R-32GE through R-42 car classes. That's an important distinction.
The current plan (though subject to change) features the retirement of the 10 R-32GE cars, plus all R-38s and slant R-40s, plus the 110 R-42s that were rebuilt by Coney Island Shops. The R-40M (sub)class and most of the R-42 class would continue in service, at least until the following order (which may manifest itself as an option to the R-160 order -- this remains to be seen).
David
NOOOOOOO! Not the SLANTS! ANYTHING BUT THE SLANTS!
So, in the TA's own words, 390 cars are to be used beyond "the end of their useful lives".
Welcome to the Department of Combined English and Mathematics at Bauman University...
Somehow I knew this was coming.
"Train Dude" reported a while back that a consultant studied various car classes to determine their remaining service lives. I don't have a copy of the study, nor have I seen it. However, I know from reading "Train Dude"'s postings that the consultant determined that only some car classes, and only some cars within those classes, were (then) approaching the end of their service lives.
Most of the cars in question by Mr. Bauman are R-42s. The R-42 class was overhauled by two separate entities in the late 1980s: Morrison-Knudsen overhauled 286 cars (of which I believe two were subsequently wrecked in the Williamsburgh Bridge accident and two were wrecked somewhere else) and NYCT Coney Island Shops overhauled 110. There are some differences in the equipment installed in each overhaul job. Perhaps more important, however, is the fact that the cars overhauled in Coney Island were done at a time when the shops were being rehabilitated. Fit and finish were not what they should have been, and the cost per car was much higher than what M-K charged. This was documented in the media at the time, so a further diatribe is not necessary. However, it would lead one (who does not have the consultant's report in hand) to believe that these cars were targeted by the consultant for retirement before the remainder of the R-42 fleet. Perhaps "Train Dude" or someone else familiar with the report will confirm this for us.
As for the other 100 (or so) cars (R-40M), I can only speculate that the rounded #1 end has held tighter than the slanted #1 end on the R-40s, causing less water infiltration.
Any further questions/comments/arguments should be directed at MTA's writers and/or NYCT's Car Equipment personnel.
David
I think you did a very credible job in defending your previous post. I don't have that report in hand and can't quote any specific numbers. However, the report also indicated that some R-46s should go. Now, how valid was the report? For the time, I suppose that it had some validity. BUT it pre-dated the metro-card. No one could have predicted the extraordinary success of that innovation nor was the magnitude in the jump in ridership predictable. The consultant report was based on engineering and need 10 - 15 years out. Clearly fleet needs must now be re-calculated and new ridership growth projections, made. I personally find number crunching boring & I'll leave that to the Stephen Bauman's of the world. In my world, I'd scrap the (196) R-38s (for the roof problems), the (278) R-44s (for the corrosion and frame problems) and the (126) most problematic cars of the other fleets. Get rid of 600 trouble-plagued cars and replace them with 660 R-160s.
Makes sense. Reriring cars based on individual condition is better than retiring entire car classes, the good with the bad.
Makes sense. Retiring cars based on individual condition is better than retiring entire car classes, the good with the bad.
The R38 and the R44 cars should be replaced. The 38's were never great cars to begin with and the same should be said of the R44's. Why did they wind up on the A/C anyway? I heard a rumor that the R68A's were suppose to go to the A,but were sent to the B insted. Is there any truth to that at all?
I'd scrap the (196) R-38s (for the roof problems), the (278) R-44s (for the corrosion and frame problems) and the (126) most problematic cars of the other fleets. Get rid of 600 trouble-plagued cars and replace them with 660 R-160s.
You did not account for the fact that 278 R-44's are equivalent to 348 60-foot cars. The total number of cars that you will be scrapping will be quivalent to 670 60-foot cars. You will be reducing the fleet by one trainset.
I personally find number crunching boring...
Thank you very much for that clarification. I did not realize that not all equipment had been treated or mistreated alike.
On the TA website, they say that they will replace 607 cars from the R-32GE/R-38/R-40/R-40M/R-42 series cars.
Here's the funny part about that:
How can you replace 607 cars in a fleet of ALL mated cars?
Will some car become a single?
Will some car become mated to an R-160?
It's possible that because the R-160 order is designed for use on the entire system, some cars will come in five-car units for use on the IND and BMT Southern Division, while others will come in four car pairs for the BMT Eastern Division lines. Pair the two different ones together and you get a nine-car train, which would give you an odd number here and there (though only if the MTA is planning a few nine car trains for lines other than the J/L/M/Z).
Car #3620 is out of service for frame problems. It also has no mate. Hence, it is possible to replace an odd number of cars.
They should also save R-32 Car #3620 for spare parts just in case.
BMTJeff
Yes, that the MTA is not retiring all those cars at once.
But you knew that, of course.
You should suggest to the T/A to save the GE GOH R-32s for spare parts provided that they aren't planning to scrap the MK GOH R-32s anytime soon. I have noticed that the R-32s appear to be in decent enough shape. In one other post someone apparently saw an R-38 with a rusty roof and mentioned that the R-32s were generally rather sturdy cars. I've also heard that the R-40s and R-42s aren't in the best of condition anymore either and the T/A is planning to scrap these cars along with the R-38s.
BMTJeff
The TA is putting new floors into the R-32s. Now, do you suppose that they plan to scrap them? Anyway, if I do buy into your idea about saving the GE R-32s for parts, just what parts would you suggest that the TA save them for?
If an end of an MK GOH R-32 should be damaged in an accident one can take the end of a GE GOH R-32 for replacement provided that the car is repairable so I suggest saving the complete set of the 10 GE GOH R-32s for such purposes. Also the GE GOH R-32s can also be used to test new technology such as a new design of traction motor without having to build an entire new trainset since you already have one that you can use for tests. They can also use the GE GOH R-32s to test different types of A/C units. Why throw the cars away if they can still be used for testing new technologies without having to build a brand new trainset. Use what you already have.
BMTJeff
What's the problem with the GE R'32s. I had a train of them this AM on the A and they seen no different than the others?
IIRC the GE R-32s are usually found intermixed with R-38s in a given consist.
I was in the first car, and noticed the builder plate said "Rebuilt by Buffalo Transit Services" and there was a GE symbol next to the writing. I think it did look more like an R-38. Are these GE's used as lead cars?????
Sometimes GE-rebuilt R-32’s are lead cars, sometimes they’re in back of R-38 G.O.H.’s which lead.
"I was in the first car, and noticed the builder plate said "Rebuilt by Buffalo Transit Services" and there was a GE symbol next to the writing. I think it did look more like an R-38."
Was the A/C functioning in these cars ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They are used as horses during the summer at 207 main shop.
Moreover, the fronts of the GE R-32 G.O.H.’s have retained at least some of the appearance of the original fronts – as opposed to the MK R-32 G.O.H.’s which is something else again. Maybe keep at least GE R-32 G.O.H. as a Museum piece or something.
They should just gut out the GE electrical components, or whattever else separates them from the other 32's, so they could be apart of the 32 fleet again. (And the AC's would be replaced, of course). When the 32's have their 2nd GOH, then just rebuild all of them the same (the GE 32's don't have the body problems that make the 38's less durable, so why treat them like those cars?)
"When the 32's have their 2nd GOH..."
As has been said here, oh, dozens of times, NYCT doesn't do GOHs anymore. The R-32 fleet still undergoes SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). The new floors, for example, are being installed under SMS. With SMS, components are replaced before their life cycle has been reached.
David
"I have thought of the best way to use the GE GOH R-32s. Save them for spare parts or even use them for a test train"
I heard this from a couple of TA employess, one an engineer and not a motorman type of engineer either !
"Why spend operating budget money to repair or overhaul a particular fleet when money is coming from Albany to replace them ?"
Don't argue this twisted philosophy, Jeff. We have no power to prevent this so why bother.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hot off my e-mail and right to you. Another exciting Hot Times.
***********
Today, It's another exciting adventure of 2001: A Train Odyssey.
The phone rang far too early this day, July 4th, at about 0220. Pat, the
overnight caller (who I tell is my favorite "call girl") gives me the
exciting news that I will go on duty at Markham at 0420. I, along with an
extra board Conductor will deadhead to Clinton to get a 705 coal train and
take it to the NS at Kankakee and then van back home to Markham and tie up.
Hmm, I will work but will still be back home for the holiday. I inquire
about my Conductor and she tells me it will be Kevin O'Conner. Cool!
Although relatively new at railroading, Kevin is pretty sharp and fun to
work with. Like me, he has a warped and demented sense of humor. "I shall be
there at 420" is my response.
705, whose full name is C70561-03 is a coal train loaded at Crown #3 Mine in
Farmersville, IL. Farmersville is located at the very southern end of the
Gilman District. At one time, the track advanced well beyond Farmersville to
St Louis, but was eliminated beyond here after the 1972 merger with the
GM&O. The ICG opted for the "Alton Route" line to reach the Gateway City.
To explain the symbol of the train; the letter C designates it as a unit
coal train. 700 series numbers are used for coal trains on the CN System.
The digit 6 indicates this train has originated on the Midwest Division. The
digit 1 indicates that this is the regular scheduled train of this date. 03
is the date the train originated, that being July 3rd when the train was
loaded at the mine. If this were an empty going back to the mine for loading
it would be the C70461-xx.
CN symbols their trains backward from the way that US railroads using
numeric symbols number their trains. In the US, most railroads designate
northward and eastward trains with even numbers and westward and southward
trains with odd numbers. This system would have us symbolled as 704 north
and 705 south. However, Canada does eastward and southward as evens and
northward and westward as odds. Hence, the even numbers going south and the
odd number going north.
This train is destined for Northern Indiana Public Service Company's
(NIPSCO) Wheatfield, IN generating station. It is referred to most often as
the "Wheatfield NIPS." When we deliver this train to Norfolk Southern at
Kankakee, they handle it via the former Conrail Kankakee and Nipsco
Secondary Tracks to the power plant. Being that NIPSCO is our power and gas
utility here in Northwest Indiana, I am actually getting back some of the
money I pay them every month in the manner that I get paid to haul their
coal.
So here we go.
I had talked to the afternoon caller about 2100 hours last evening and was
told "There is nothing on the line-up extra to run." This would mean that
nothing outside of the regular scheduled trains would operate. Like an idiot
I believed this news and figured I would work train 338 around 1700 hours or
so on the 4th. So I stayed up kind of late, near midnight before heading to
bed. I find it amazing that the railroad that brags and boasts of running
everything on a schedule cannot seem to get the proper information in a
timely manner to the call board so as to give us crews reliable information
as to when we might go to work. While all the regular trains usually operate
about the same time daily, all of the grain, coal, potash and extra manifest
trains are almost never on the line-up. These trains have this way of just
showing up; sort of like when Captain Kirk, Bones McCoy and Mr Spock just
appear after being sent from the transporter room of the Starship
Enterprise. They just "materialize."
So now having had very little sleep, about two and half-hours or so, I have
to go to work. But this is not uncommon or unusual. I've been doing this for
years. I guess this makes me a lack of sleep expert or maybe even a
specialist.
At about 0330, I head out the door of my residence here in beautiful
Schererville, IN (the Crossroads of the Nation) and head to the Homewood
office at the south end of Markham Yard. Here I will meet up with Kevin, my
Conductor du jur and we will load up into a van from Midwest Railroad
Transportation and be carted off to Clinton, IL to get our train.
I should mention that just because they have told me that we will cab back
to Markham when we deliver the train to the NS, it does not mean this will
actually occur. They are known for changing their minds. Why? Because they
can. Having been doing this railroad thing for over twenty-two and a half
years, I know that a change in plan is always likely and I pack for the
situation. As it has been said so many times, "Plan A never had a chance
anyway." Instead of just bringing my grip that has the requirements of the
job including operating manuals, keys, camera, tools and other hardware that
years of experience have taught me to carry along, I also bring my "going to
Champaign" grip. This bag includes several day's worth of clothes, my
shaving kit and its necessities, workout clothes for the health club, gym
shoes and again, the other necessities required for a stay away from home
for several days.
Before we departed Markham, I called the NS Kankakee Dispatcher on the
telephone to advise him of our coming. He is shocked and knows nothing of
us. I'm not surprised. He tells of no clear tracks at Kankakee for us to
deliver the train. I inform him that we are likely six to eight hours away
from being at his door. He figures that just maybe by that point in time,
one of the three running tracks on the north side of the West Yard will be
clear for us. I give him the number of the fax machine at Clinton so he can
fax the required Train Dispatcher Bulletins to us there. I figure by calling
now, he will have plenty of time to send them and that they will be waiting
for us on the fax machine upon our arrival at Clinton.
So off we go, departing Markham about 0440. I use this opportunity to rest
my eyes and prepare for the coming trip. We arrived at Clinton some three
hours later. I was dropped off at the power and Kevin went to the trailer
that serves as the office. The inbound crew had pulled the train up to the
north end of the yard so as to clear all the road crossings in town. The
trailer is located at the south end of the yard. While Kevin marked up with
the CNIC Desk 2 Dispatcher, obtained the okay on our general orders for the
Gilman and Chicago South Subdivisions, and then the NS Kankakee Dispatcher
I inspected my power for today's train. We had the IC 6251 and 6261, a pair
of SD40-3's. They were coupled back to back meaning one unit was facing
north and the other facing south. The 6261 wears CN colors and has a little
"IC" stenciled below the road number on the side of the cab. While it
portrays a CN unit at work, in real life it is another run of the mill IC
engine. And because it has that little "IC" on the cab side, it is
designated as an IC engine for identification purposes on the radio and for
all paperwork. This can and does get confusing.
Upon inspecting the power, I discover there is no ice in the cooler and
notify Kevin to bring some up when he comes back to the engines. While
awaiting his return, I wash the windows, the control stand and all the
handles. I also pick up all the garbage that managed not make it into the
garbage bags placed in the cab for this very purpose. Some folks are just
slobs. Being that summer has arrived in full swing, the bugs have also
returned. They have this way of becoming permanently attached to the windows
and need to be cleaned away. I have a pet peeve about dirty windows.
With all of this taken care of and no exceptions taken to the power, I am
ready to roll. All I need now is Kevin to return with ice, track warrants,
general orders and NS bulletins. When he arrives with the said supplies, we
do a quick briefing of what restrictions and the like we face, go over the
track warrant and we finally depart at 0805. Our track warrant gives us the
entire railroad today as it reads "Proceed from Milepost (MP) 146.5 to
Gilman on the main track." MP 146.5 is where the Clinton Yard Limits end and
track warrant control begins. Kevin also informs me that we have been
instructed to stop at Gilman and swap out the 6251 for the 6203 which is
sitting on the West Pass there. Always gotta be something.
I begin the assault on the grade that leads us out of Clinton starting the
12,000 net tons of Illinois coal loaded into 110 aluminum coal hoppers. The
train of over 14,000 gross tons starts as slowly expected, but with no
trouble.
Let the journey begin.
We climb slowly out of Clinton to Birkbeck, around a curve and drop down
into a sag along side the Illinois Power Clinton nuclear powered generating
station and pick up speed nicely, reaching about 45 mph. As we climb up and
out the other side of the sag, alarm bells begin to ring. This is never
good. A quick look behind me to the computer screen shows the alarm is
coming from the second unit, the 6261. Kevin walks back there to see what is
going on, or not going on as the case may be. He informs me that the second
unit is dead. He also turns to isolation switch to the "Start/Isolate"
position to silence the bells. I pull the train to a stop on fairly level
track at a wide spot in the road called Dewitt, IL to go back and determine
the cause of the failure. Not even ten miles run and we are in trouble.
I observe cooling water all over the place when I open the engine room doors
by the start station where the fuel prime/starter switch and various
protective devices are located. I look to the expansion tank where the
cooling water is stored and discover the cap for it has blown off and is
hanging. Being that locomotives are like cars and trucks having pressurized
cooling systems, apparently the pressure blew the cap off. The likely reason
is that whoever added cooling water to the system failed to properly tighten
the cap. Inspection of the cap and the rim on which it fits showed no damage
leading to my presumption. I carefully fit it back on and tighten it firmly.
I restarted the engine and observed the water level in the sight glass. It
began to slowly drop. When I revved the engine up, it dropped quickly to
less than required levels when running and the unit attempted to shut down
again. I quickly reset the low water button and kept it from dying.
"Uh, Houston, we have a problem."
It never seems to fail; I get to work the holiday again and it just cannot
be uneventful. I returned to the lead unit and called the Gilman Dispatcher.
Frankie Morrical cheerfully answered when he had a free moment. From the
sounds of his conversations I was listening to, he too was not having an
uneventful day either. Things sounded a bit hectic for him. And now this. I
explained our dilemma and went on to mention that maybe the powers that be
(you know, that "They" fellow) could contact the Farmer City Fire Department
and have them meet us upon our arrival there to provide us with a big drink
of water for our thirsty girl. Being that we really have no place to get
water between Dewitt and Gilman and the fact that we would not make the hill
at Bellflower nor the even steeper grade east of Gibson City without that
second unit, our choices were pretty much limited. The call is made and we
are told that the cavalry has been summoned and will indeed meet us at
Farmer City.
So off to Farmer City we go. Being that the ascending grades between here
and there were gentle, I would have no problem pulling the train with only
one working unit. It would not be fast, but it would get us there without
tearing anything up.
We arrived at Farmer City about 0910, but the Fire Department has not yet
appeared. I pulled the train past the automatic interlocking signal here
before stopping to "hold the plant." This means I would hold the crossing at
grade so as not to have the signal time out and drop back to a stop signal.
If this were to happen, the Conductor would have to go and operate the
emergency time release to get a proceed signal again and this could take
upwards of six minutes. There is no longer an actual rail crossing here
anymore. Conrail's former Peoria & Eastern line used to cross here until it
was sold to NS in the mid 90's. NS removed this portion from service and the
diamonds were pulled out and the IC track straight railed in 1998. So there
is no crossing here anymore, but an automatic interlocking still protects
this non-existent crossing. I'm sure there is a reason for this, but I guess
I don't see this big picture.
An automatic interlocking is one that is approach activated. Very simply
put, the first approaching train to hit the approach circuit gets the signal
to proceed first. This would be first come, first served.
The fire department shows up about five minutes after we do. After
discussing the situation with them, they pull out the inch and half hose and
I water the unit. With this kind of volume of water, it takes just a couple
of minutes to refill the nearly empty expansion tank. I revved the engine a
few times to observe the water levels, deem it road worthy again, put the
isolation switch back to the "run" position, thank the two Firemen who came
out on this holiday for this non-emergency call, tell them to send the CNIC
the bill and depart. This all took fifteen minutes.
We are back on track in a manner of speaking. We roll along passing through
the likes of Bellflower where the folks were gathering for an Independence
Day celebration and obliged several requests to sound the whistle. This is
small town USA at its finest. The remaining portion of the trip to Gilman
was uneventful.
Upon our arrival at Gilman, I called Frankie and asked if there would be any
problem bringing the entire train into town to make the swap. He agreed and
into town we came. Of course, we would live to regret this decision. The
Gilman line ends at about MP82.3 with the line splitting into two wyes. The
south wye connects to the Chicago Sub to allow for southward movements from
the Gilman Sub to the Chicago Sub. The north wye connects to allow for
northward movements to the Chicago Sub from the Gilman Sub. We pulled up
onto the north leg of the wye and cut away from the train and headed towards
the West Pass. It was here we discovered the 6203 was facing south instead
of north. Had we cut the train off outside of town, we could have turned
this engine on the wyes here to have it facing the right direction. Did not
have that option available to us now though as we had pulled the train onto
the north leg of the wye. Oh well. So now we get to run backwards as it
were.
The 6203 did have ditch lights on rear, so we could operate at normal speed.
Had it not had them, we would have had to reduce our speed to 20 mph when
approaching and while crossing every road crossing as required by Federal
law. While operating backwards can be a pain in the ass, there is nothing to
prohibit such a move. What I lose here is some visibility and comfort. The
speedometer is now behind me and most of the controls are at an odd angle
towards the front of the unit. Southern and later many Norfolk Southern
units came equipped with bi-directional control stands. This has them placed
parallel to the sidewall of the cab instead of at an angle. This has the
controls along side of you for more comfort. They also have speedometers on
either the rear cab wall or mounted on the control stand towards the rear
portion of it for easier viewing. This way, you do not have keep turning
around to look behind you to see how fast you are going.
We went about the business of setting out the 6251 and picking up the 6203,
another SD40-3, performing a daily inspection on it, the required brake test
and then back to the train. When we transferred all of our goodies from the
one unit to the other, I also brought the head of train device (HOT) with
me. I installed that one on the 6203 and Kevin ran the other one over to the
6251. By performing this little maneuver, we would not have to "rearm" the
light and perform another emergency brake dump test. This would save Kevin
from having to position himself at the tail end of the train to push the
button on FRED to send the arm signal to the HOT, have me hit the
communication test button to engage the arming feature and then perform the
emergency dump test. A HOT will remain armed with FRED until disarmed
manually, the battery in FRED dies and we lose the link or I dial out of
this working code into another from another FRED and rearm with that device.
It also saves Kevin from having to then walk back up the 110 cars to the
engines.
With all the required air tests performed on engines and train, we depart
Gilman and enter the Chicago Sub for the trip north to Kankakee. As we are
leaving, Frankie calls and informs us that the instead of going back home
after we hand the train over to the NS, we will now cab to Champaign and tie
up there instead of going to Markham. Kevin learned a very valuable lesson
here, never believe what the caller tells you when they call you to work. He
had not brought along the necessary overnight supplies.
Frankie also tells us that the NS will have a crew on duty to meet us upon
our arrival at Kankakee. This is huge. It means that we will not have to
yard the train in their West Yard. This is a cumbersome task as the
connection to the NS here is backwards. We do not pull around the wye, onto
their railroad and head east. If the wye was in the southeast quadrant we
could do this. Instead, the wye is in the northwest quadrant. This means we
have two choices; pull the train by, cut off and run around it, tie onto the
south end and pull it around and head west to the yard, or pull by, and
shove the train around the wye and then the mile plus to the yard. Some
Conductors prefer to shove it over, others prefer the runaround move. In
order for us to even reach the wye, we have to pass through a small yard on
the west side of our main track, traversing about 2200 feet or so. To ride
the shove, a Conductor has to wind up hanging onto the side of an NORX coal
hopper over two miles at rather slow speeds at times. Makes for very tired
and stretched out arms.
As we closed in on Kankakee, I contacted the NS crew that would take this
train east to coordinate the move. The NS crew acquired the movement permit
form D required under NORAC rules to allow us to enter and occupy their main
track. NS still uses NORAC; Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Committee
rules on their former Conrail lines. They handled the switches on their end
of the wye and protected the two road crossings there for us.
When I shoved the train onto their main track and cleared the two road
crossings, the NS crew boarded and took over. We exchanged pleasantries,
discussed having to work yet another holiday and the fact that the lead unit
was facing backwards. The Engineer laughed about the fact that maybe the
CNIC was adopting the NS policy of running them whichever direction they are
facing. At least when the train comes back, both units will be facing the
right way.
We boarded our cab, went to line back all the switches and headed for
Champaign. We stopped at Meijer in Champaign so Kevin could obtain the
necessary overnight supplies. We then proceeded to the yard office to do our
tie up in the computer. We put off duty at 1630; some twelve hours and ten
minutes after this saga began and headed over to the hotel to spend the
night.
It was not a total loss though. My buddy Jon Roma came by and we all went
out and celebrated a toast to our freedom and our country and then had
dinner. We later watched Champaign-Urbana's outstanding fireworks display.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001
A few months ago, we all agreed that there were no wooden escalators left on the London Underground due to new safety regulations. Much to my amazement, the latest issue of "Underground News" magazine claims not: Wooden treads are still to be found on certain escalators at:
Marylebone
Wanstead
Notting Hill Gate (very busy station, not sure I believe this)
Bethnal Green
Gants Hill
Greenford
Will investigate this weekend and report back
>>>>Notting Hill Gate (very busy station, not sure I believe this)
Believe it. It's goes from the Eastbound Central Line platform (towards Epping/Hainault) to the mezzanine. It's a very short escalator though.
Wait a minute. The wooden escalators are an endangered species? Get pictures before it's too late. Better yet, take a step!
They must be. The only place that I know of in NYC where you will still find wooden escalator steps is Macy's 34th St.
in his sleep early July 4. First July 4th in over 60 years the carousel didn't operate.
Daily News story
That guy was an institution. His memory deserves a placque or something similar at the rides, or perhaps affixed to the new subway terminal.
That's really sad. A real piece of Coney Island died. And a piece of my childhood. I rode that carousel as a little boy, stood listening to it as a grown-up and put my kids on it within the last few years. I thought the old guy charged too much near the end--a few rides for two kids plus me ate up a wallet pretty fast--but I didn't begrudge him.
I hope they make that carousel (and especially its real band organ) a landmark. It's more important than a cheap furniture store or even a baseball park.
IMO, of course.
it's strange... i was riding around coney island about 2 or 3 weeks ago on my bike... i like to stop by the carousel, because it has a nice old feel to it... the owner, who i've seen over the years, seemed a little whoozy, almost disoriented... he didn't look well to me... i'm sorry to hear of his passing...
I knew Mike. He was a friend of our family. My Uncle Charles was quoted in the Daily News story. He was a good man, and will be missed.
...and you wonder why it's so hard to get the Second Avenue subway built. Jeez...
Lawmaker’s Loyalty Questioned
Try not to be too harsh here. Serrano helped Puerto Rico get funding to complete a project already under construction. Puerto Rico is a territory of the US, with a lot of poverty and no votes in Congress. So literally, if "somebody else" doesn't help in Congress to appropriate money for the island, it doesn't get done. If it weren't Serrano, it would have had to be somebody else here on the mainland. Do you see anybody in New Jersey or Connecticut willing to help San Juan? So Serrano in this case took the heat for it. I respect his decision.
Want to change that situation? Make Puerto Rico a state, and put senators and congressmen in Congress to represent it.
The tax cut is responsible for the difficulty in getting funds, not light rail in Puerto Rico.
Beating up on Serrano is not only not useful, it's counter-productive.
Thing is, the majority of Puerto Ricans like the status quo. If they become a state, the residents will have to start paying federal income tax, among other things. If they become an independant country, they have to solve all their own problems.
Neither of which seems to appeal to them. What should happen is our legislators should finally throw down a put up or shut up type of deal: Either join the union with all of its advantages and disadvantages, or become their own country, and all of the advantages and disadvantages that go with that. Enough mothering.
-Hank
Yes, it's very true that Puerto Ricans can't decide, as a group, what they really want.
With regard to commonwealth status, remember that large employers tell their employees that if Puerto Rico becomes a state, trhe factory will go away and throw everyone out of work. So there's an intimidation factor...
"What should happen is our legislators should finally throw down a put up or shut up type of deal: Either join the union with all of its advantages and disadvantages, or become their own country, and all of the advantages and disadvantages that go with that. Enough mothering."
I'd tell the Governor that. It's harder to plaster that message on a working stiff in San Juan who has mouths to feed at home and can't understand why people here would begrudge him a trolley ride to work.
I don't see why it should be solely up to PR whether it becomes a state or not. Maybe we should unilaterally give it its independence -- along with Alabama and Mississippi?
It's not solely up to Puerto Rico. But if PR residents don't make up their minds, it won't happen.
Independence for Miss. and 'Bama? How about just dispersing the populations there and repopulating exclusively with New Yorkers (esp. retired train engineers...maybe we can get more mass transit down there that way).
:0)
How about just dispersing the populations there . . . .
Fine by me so long as none of them move into MY neighborhood.
Is this where I laugh out loud? :0)
Thing is, the majority of Puerto Ricans like the status quo. If they become a state, the residents will have to start paying federal income tax, among other things. If they become an independant country, they have to solve all their own problems.
If Puerto Rico became a state, most residents wouldn't pay federal income taxes at all - they'd get money back through the Earned Income Tax Credit. A state of Puerto Rico would be a big revenue drain on the country for that reason.
Plus, if PR becomes a state, DC will push harder, even though it will be a bigger drain on the Union as there's less useful stuff in DC than in PR.
Also, the Constitution prohibits creating a state out of any other state, except with the consent of the voters. (The last time a state was created out of an existing state was West Virginia. The difference was that in 1863 Virginia was not part of the United States, so the prohibition didn't hold at that time. After the end of the Civil War, Virginia didn't want to press the issue, since they were on the losing side.) It is expected that, should the DC Statehood issue arise again, that Maryland voters just might vote "NO!!!". We've got enough money sumps here without adding DC to the mix.
On the humor side, DC as a state just might kick West Virginia off the joke list.
The option of giving all but the federal area of downtown Washington back to Maryland, the same way the section of the District west of the Potomac was given back to Virginia, has been discussed over the years (obviously mostly by Republicans), but Maryland for some reason seems cool to the idea.
Realistically, with the current 50-50 split both in Congress and in most of the statehouses across the nation, there's no way a DC statehood amendment could get the required 2/3 vote from the needed legislatures to gain approval.
Maryland for some reason seems cool to the idea.
There are already too many usseless/welfare/druggies in Maryland now, adding a lot of DC just increases the problems. Prince George's and Montgomery counties are extremely cold to the idea, since they would get all the District being given back.
Maryland's General Assembly is 90% Democratic, the Maryland Republican Party is mostly disorganized. The last two Governor races were almost a laugher. In the first race, Glendening was opposed by Ellen Sauerbury, a very conservative woman, who tended to make Ronald Reagan look like a liberal. Glendenning won by 8700 votes. Sauerbury filed a protest charging voter fraud, but the numbers she claimed vanished when the case went to trial. Four years later, the same two faced off again - with the same result. This time the difference was over 10,000 votes, so not a peep from Ellen.
No statehood amendment would be necessary. States are admitted through ordinary legislation. The only prominent idea regarding DC that would require a change in the US Constitution is to give it voting representation in Congress without making it a state.
"The tax cut is responsible for the difficulty in getting funds, not light rail in Puerto Rico."
No, it's that fact that so much money is being wasted on pork. Besides why should the federal government fund the New York subway? Where in the constitution does it have the right or responsibly to do so? The New York subway is not used for any military or postal reason it should be all locally funded.
"No, it's that fact that so much money is being wasted on pork. Besides why should the federal government fund the New York subway? Where in the constitution does it have the right or responsibly to do so? The New York subway is not used for any military or postal reason it should be all locally funded."
Spoken like a proud, card-carrying member of the Libertarian Party. I won't bother to reply to that nonsense; the Supreme Court and Congress have handled that very well over the years and I refer you to your public library for that.
Stick too many cars on the highway because there is no New Yok City subway or other area mass transit systems and see how fast the military and Posal Service vehicles traveling through the metropolitan area are able to move. Funding those systems has the ancillary effect of removing passenger cars from the road and making it more accessabile for both those vehicles you mentioned and for commercial truck haulers bringing goods both to the NYC market and those who have to travel through it to and from Upstate New York and New England who would be stuck in traffic conditions far worse than they are now otherwise.
And where does it say we should be having anything other than diplomatic contact with non-states?
-Hank
I don't see the problem. Allocating $40 million for completion of the Tren Urbano makes sense as it's already well into the construction phase. A similar allocation - or even one ten times as large - for the Second Avenue subway probably would disappear into yet another "study" and not a shovelful of dirt would be turned.
As far as I'm concerned, New York no longer deserves priority over everywhere else when it comes to transit funding. Other cities can get things built. New York cannot.
Yes. Let's disband New York and start all over.
Well, at least someone in New York State understands the importance and utility of light rail.
His focus is just off by a few thousand miles.
And judging by the story, the rest of the NYC congressional delegation sound like it has all the unity of purpose as the 2001 New York Mets -- another problem with trying to get any meaningful funding for NYC.
At least Serrano actually followed through on a promise for a transit project that has been sitting in the cellar for years. That's more than the disrespect Albany has been giving us for nearly a century, and what Washington has given us for much longer. I mean look: When TEA - 21 was enacted, most of that money went towards building an interstate highway in the backwoods of upstate NY, rather than on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And just recently, we got the snub with the House Appropriations Cmtee when they gave more money towards ESA (which benefits a more politically affluent consituency out on LI) rather than the 2nd Av, which has been delayed for over 30 years (I'm going by the MTA's Program for Action, not the IND 2nd System plan, which would make the situation more embarrassing).
These Dems need to shut up and start figuring out ways of tricking the GOP into shelling out the dough, both upstate and down 95. In - fighting ain't going to do it.
When TEA - 21 was enacted, most of that money went towards building an interstate highway in the backwoods of upstate NY, rather than on the Upper East Side of Manhattan.
That Interstate highway (I-86) was seen as a way of bringing economic development to chronically depressed Upstate regions. It's not at all uncommon for highway projects to be used for development purposes. While the Second Avenue line obviously has its merits, it's not likely to do much economically for the Upper East Side, mainly because that area's already affluent.
Actually, I-86 construction was mostly done by the State of New York (with a little help at the far western end by Pennsylvania) as State Highway 17, some of which was completed about the same time the R-36 Redbirds were arriving on the scene. The bulk of the road from the NYS Thruway to I-90 north of Erie was already Interstate standard before the latest funding ever came through. The main upgrades will be to the few areas that still have highway level crossings, like just west of Liberty (nuke that damn traffic light at Exit 98!) and around the Elimra area.
The Upper East Side is an area that is affluent, no doubt. It is also an area in which a lot of its residents are key to the economic turns in the Midtown and Lower Manhattan business districts, both of which are key to the western world's survival. The thing is that for the last 50 years, these affluent people have been delayed in getting to their important jobs on a trunk line designed to carry only 60% of its current capacity. And in the process, little old people like me are delayed with them in our journeys to school or other activities.
The State of NY should have had a contingency plan for its upstate residents when the free trade market dictated that their industries flee for cheaper pastures outside the country or fold altogether, which begun about thirty years ago. Obviously it didn't. So now its compensating at our expense. But anyway, I understand that this Upstate/Downstate rivalry has been going on for the past two centuries.
And Dems don't know how to shut up. They keeping throwing out the bull and fooling the people into believing they are for them while they become the new Senate's millionaire club-----Kerry, Edwards, Kohl, Cantwell, Corzine, Rockkefeller. They live in gated communities, send their kids to provate schools and proclaim they are for the little guy. And the people believe it. What a crock. A bigger crock is that the Republicans are stupid and too tongtied to point out to the people that the Dems are phonies and just talking them for a ride. Neither party is all that interested in helping public transit in the cities. The Republicans are just more honest about it, even ifthey are wrong.
Sounds like he's doing the right thing, members of Congress are elected to do what is best for the nation not what is best for their own districts. If more people had his attitude there would be far less pork.
Does anybody out there remember.................
If there were this many diversions in service prior to the first realignment of the Manhattan Bridge in 1966-7 due to Grand St opening?
1. Were the former Bankers Specials caused to terminate at Chambers because the tracks from Nassau to the South Bridge were going to be severed?
2. Were N, T, QT, Q, QB trains forced thru the Tunnel (MAJOR CONGESTION??) while the Broadway Express tracks had a new tunnel built from the Bway Express Canal Sta to the South, not North Bridge side?
3. Were "D" and "F" trains rerouted orhad their lines shortened for a day or 2 or 5 while the tunnel from Bway Lafayette was finished via. the ramp leading to Grand Street??
4. Or was it normal service one day, and then changed to the new patterns the next?
This was all before I was born, but I am curious. My family REMEMBERS the "D" via Culver (full of r1-9's "the cars with the straw seats), but they know nothing of the CONSTRUCTION related to the Chrystie St connection!!
Tony
In partial response (I remember the D on the Culver -- some trains terminated at Kings Highway):
The QT always ran by the Montague Street Tunnel ("QB" = bridge; "QT" = tunnel.)
I believe the D was not affected. It originally ran via the route used by the F today; the work was done on tracks not used for service. So, it would have been an easy transition.
I think there was a service disruption over a weekend on the former BMT lines.
I was 16 at the time, living on the Culver line. We had D trains, and suddenly, just like that, we had F trains. There was very little impact there.
On the other hand, I knew a lot of Brighton riders, and they didn't know what hit them. But it was fast, it was done, and people adjusted. The point is that there were no multi-year "temporary" diversions.
I was 15 at the time (I gotta stop doing that - it makes me feel so old - for those who are trying to do the math - I will be 50 in November).
I was just "starting" out on my transit trails so I can't really comment on the construction.
As memory recalls, the F train terminated at 34th Street/6th Avenue so it wasn't affected during the construction. The D train ran down the Culver line (which was it's normal route) so it wasn't affected either. There had not been 6th Avenue express service between 34th & W4th prior to the opening of the Chrystie St connection. There was no service on the express track at Broadway-Lafayette at the time so nothing was affected. The Express service, the switching of the F to the Culver line and the assignment of the D to the Brighton line all happened at the same time in 1967.
I do have the article (somewhere) from the Daily News describing the aftermath of first day of the new routes. It was a mess.
"I do have the article (somewhere) from the Daily News describing the aftermath of first day of the new routes. It was a mess."
Let's see it.
N Bwy Line (LOCAL)
I remember a television broadcast from that time where a reporter interviewed a man about the change in service, and he loudly blasted the TA and lamented the loss of the Q train. I wonder where he is now?
That man is still waiting at Times Square for Brighton Express service to get home!! He get home on July 22!!
Actually, he would have made it home in 1986 during the first closure of the north side tracks, no?
Not if he was waiting for a pure Brighton express. Concurrent with the 4/86 bridge flip, the express tracks on the Brighton line were closed and the M was permamently removed. D/Q "skip stop" service ran all during the 86-88 service diversions. The express tracks were re-opened to full usage at the same time the D and Q were put on 6th Ave in 12/88. There hasn't been a regularly scheduled Brighton/Broadway express in almost 34 years.
Did that article mention anything about a motorman punching for an incorrect lineup at Pacific St.? One train wound up on the bridge instead of the Montague St. tunnel.
NY Times press coverage mentioned it. It wasn't at Pacific - it was a D at DeKalb. I remember seeing all this when I documented the Chrystie St Connection in my History of the IND:
First scheduled for March 1967, then May, the Chrystie Street connection opened on November 26th, 1967, affecting nearly every BMT and IND line in the city. But it was almost delayed at the last minute yet again. Mayor John Lindsay wanted the route changes through Chrystie Street delayed because he received complaints about them and wanted to discuss them with TA officials first. The number of trains that were proposed to run through DeKalb Avenue was questioned. He also inquired as to why these changes were being made by the TA, knowing that the TA was to become part of the larger Metropolitan Transportation Authority in March 1968. By this point, the plans were too far advanced to delay them any further; the TA agreed to "study" the service changes and make adjustments as needed.
The first train affected by the vast subway service changes was a RR local leaving 95th Street at 12:08am, initiating a new weekend service. (This train used to terminate at 57th St/7th Ave on Sundays). The first train through Grand Street was a D / Brighton Express that left Coney Island at 12:10am, headed for 205th Street. (The D route used to travel the Culver Line). The NX super-express began the next day; 5 trains were scheduled in each direction during rush hours. Later increased to 7 trains in the morning rush, the NX was supposed to provide service for an influx of new residents at public housing projects in Coney Island.
The first few weekdays of the revised services caused massive confusion for both riders and train crews. Compounding these problems were two power outages on November 28th affecting the IRT Flushing Line and BMT Astoria Lines, requiring reroutes of trains that were just permanently "re-routed". The IRT outage was traced to a failure at the Queens Plaza substation. The power outages began at 6:45pm; full power was back on-line at 7:48pm.
At 6:48am on November 28th, a D / Brighton Express train was misidentified at DeKalb Avenue and sent up the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to Canal Street. 800 passengers were discharged at Canal Street. The train then ran light to Queens Plaza via the 60th Street tunnel and Broadway Express, where the motorman changed ends and took the train via the 53rd Street tunnel and 8th Avenue local to a lay-up track at 30th St. The motorman changed ends one more time, and ran light to 59th St / Columbus Circle, where he continued along the D route to 205th Street. Originally due at 7:39am, he terminated at 205th St at 8:57am. It was later found out that the motorman punched the wrong button at DeKalb Avenue, and was sent back to school for some additional training. (He was not fired).
--Mark
The D ran via Culver right up to midnight or so on Saturday, Nov. 25, 1967, the day before the switch, then started running via Christie St. and Brighton, with no interruption of service. I rode an R-1/9 D train from B'way-Lafayette to Jay St. Saturday night, then an R-32 D train from B'way-Lafayette to DeKalb the next morning. The tracks from B'way-Laf to Christie St. had obviously been completed before the switchover; the F terminated on them at B'way-Laf through Friday evening, then (as was standard practice for weekends) terminated at 34th St. all day Saturday.
Changing the routing of the Manhattan Bridge tracks was done over the three day period from Thursday, Nov. 22 (which was Thanksgiving day) through Saturday, Nov. 25. For those three days, IIRC, all trains operated through the Montague St. tunnel. The changeover was presumably scheduled for the four-day Thanksgiving "weekend" in order to inconvenience as few people as possible with this diversion.
The express tracks between 34th and West 4th, however, though constructed concurrent with the Chrystie Street extension, didn’t go into operation until July 1, 1968, which also happened to be the same day the 57th Street–6th Avenue then-terminus opened (prior thereto, non-Washington Heights, post-11/26/67 B trains terminated at West 4th).
Grand Street and 57th Street had all-concrete roadbeds (that is, no wooden half-ties), albeit in a different design than used on the Archer Avenue extension and the 63rd Street tunnel (as on a previous thread). However, the tunnels inbetween Broadway-Lafayette and Grand, and between Grand and the “Manny B.”, used the conventional full wood ties and ballast. Go figure.
The express tracks between 34th and West 4th, however, though constructed concurrent with the
Chrystie Street extension, didn’t go into operation until July 1, 1968, which also happened to be the
same day the 57th Street–6th Avenue then-terminus opened (prior thereto, non-Washington
Heights, post-11/26/67 B trains terminated at West 4th).
The express tracks didn't go into full time operation until July 1. But they were used by both B and D trains during rush hours, starting Monday, Nov. 27, 1967 (the second day of Chrystie St. operation).
It seems the practice of making routing changes on Sundays still continues, as this month's "bridge flip" will occur on Sunday the 22nd. Interesting, though, that 57 St./6 Av. opened on Monday, July 1 in '68, and not on Sunday, June 30.
IIRC, the station actually opened very late Sunday evening. I have memories of going up on the first train a B train of R-32's.
I was in the city on July 1, 1968; however, we didn't go to 57th St. I was also in the city on Nov. 24, 1967, but didn't ride on the BMT at all. The Manhattan Bridge no doubt breathed a huge sigh of relief those few days. I did, however, experience my first CPW express jaunt on a prewar D train.
I was only 12 at the time, but I remember the tracks to Grand St being ready long before the swap, with the rails coming up to the bridge portal, and just ending without blocks or bumpers.
The Brighton trains ran in the tunnel for a number of weekends before the official date, probably to allow work on the wall between the Nassau and Bway tracks, and to ready the the new connections.
On the actual weekend, I think all they had to do was severe the Bway tracks from the bridge north side and connect them to Grand St. Then sever the tracks from Canal and connect to the south side. I doubt it took all that long.
I think the Nassau st connection was severed long before any of the other work was done. Trains stopped running Bridge/Nassau years before. I never saw a train on the south side until 1967. I could be wrong on this.
I rode the Chrystie connection on the first day(Sunday) and it was chaos. I also rode the second day and it was mass chaos.
The Nassau side had service until that Wednesday. Thurs was Thanksgiving, and Friday they bagan the work of severing the loop. (By then servie was down to a few 4th Av. specials, and light Brighton specials, so that may be why you didn't see anything on that side). After rush Fri, all trains ran through the tunnel, as work began on the North side.
6th Av. service was affected, as F trains had always been extended to 2nd Av. during rush hours, by switching to the exp. tracks at W4th, which then ran through to 2nd Av. When work began on the Chrystie St. ramp where those tracks were, service was then cut back to Broadway Lafayette. Sometime in 1967, it was again extended to 2nd Av, again because of Chrystie St. work on the tracks at Bway-Lafayette, but this time they stayed on the local tracks and switched over at 2nd Av, just like the V will.
My map from 1963 shows serivce on the Nassau Loop distinctly as "rush-hours-only". So I guess it could be pretty uncommon to see a train on the south side tracks, especially if you only got to go there on days off from school or work.
It's curious that even though the south side has received less use over its lifetime than, that it developed the worse structural problems, with a 12 year closure.
I remember it well - it was the final year my family went to Brighton Beach on summer days. Before Christie we would get on the QB at Astoria and have a one seat ride to Brighton Beach or Ocean Parkway. During the week we would change at 57th for the Q (hated riding thru the tunnel on the QT). After Christie it just became too much trouble to change at 34th (with all our beach chairs and umbrellas) for the D or ride the horribly slow RR service thru the tunnel to DeKalb.
So it was goodbye to Coney Island - forever!!
The question is, why was the 6th Avenue Line given access to the Manhattan Bridge when they was the Broadway & Nassau Lines? Did they know that ridership would decrease drastically since the change took effect? It would take years to reach the level of commuters as is happening now.
N Broadway Line
Prior to Chrystie Street (and for a short while after), 6th Avenue had no express tracks between W 4th and 34 Streets and was underutilized. The 4 tracks over the Manhattan Bridge were also underutilized. Completing the 6th Avenue express tracks and linking the Manhattan Bridge north tracks to 6th Avenue solved both problems. Using the south tracks over the Manhattan Bridge to Broadway meant that Broadway (BMT) service would not be reduced. Chrystie Street resulted in more service between Brooklyn and Manhattan, including linking Williamburgh Bridge service to 6th Avenue. It was only after the south tracks of the Manhattan Bridge became unusable for so many years that Broadway service really suffered.
So what you're saying, there wasn't much service coming out of Nassau Street which is currently served by the J, M, Z Lines? I guess that makes sense, because, why come out of brooklyn just to go into brooklyn again... In other words, common sense will tell you that people will access other modes of transportation (G or BUS) to get to southern Brooklyn.
Speaking of the Nassau Street route, judging by the traveling patterns, the nassau line doesn't serve much of a purpose after Broad Street. Except to add additional service to a very popular line like the B.
If they were to tie the Second Avenue Line into Nassau (if built), it will greatly change the way those stations are maintain along Nassau Street. Other than that, I don't see much use of the Nassau Street Lines above Broad Street.
N Broadway Line
Essex Street is quite heavily used, especially by the Hassidic Community travelling between the Lower East Side and Williamsburg. But you're right in that there really is very little use (at present) of the service in between Essex and Broad. The very peculiar and ineffcient track set-up, involving a lot of switching as the norm, makes it a slow ride.
However, reverting to earlier threads, I think that full time (well, maybe not late nights) throguh service on the M would be very useful during the coming Manny B problems. The Bowery Station is pretty close to Grand Street
And the Bowery's usage is WAY WAY up over the past year, mostly by Chinese people. I was stunned to see 10 people get on not the train I was riding, but just the car I was sitting in recently.
Wel, that's great. We need as much usage as possible at the "minor" stations, so as not to give TA any excuses, ya know....
I was glad to see that the station's at leat been painted and gets cleaned now. I used it a bit in Dec 1999, and it was a disaster. That said, seeing Bowery, Canal (J/M/Z plat.), and Chambers in bad shapeat least served as a reminder of the grim 70's, and also gave the feeling of visiting ruins or something.
Where the TA made their mistake when Chrystie St. was opened, was in failing to balance out the track usage on both sides of the bridge when they had the chance.
When the Broadway line ran on what is now the Sixth Ave. tracks, the south side tracks to Chambers were underused because they really didn't go anywhere in Manhattan except back towards Brooklyn on the Nassau loop. But when Chrystie was opened, the TA put the B and D on the old Broadway tracks and stupidly stopped full-time Brighton-Broadway service, leaving only the N and the occassional rush hour QB on the old Chamber Street tracks, leaving the unblanced situation as bad as it was in the first place.
No dobut the design flaw would have forced some repairs to the Manny B eventually, but the TA's decision in 1967 to prioritize Sixth Ave. service to south Brooklyn over Broadway service probably hastened the current problems.
There's been some posts here that the whole bridge is 3 in one, wouldn't that refute your argument?
Arti
If part of the problem with the bridge was caused by twisting due to the trains passing over, causing cracks due to the rigid box-like design Moiseriff came up with, then the problem would eventually have arisen no matter how well-balanced the trains operating on either side of the bridge were.
But over the years, I'll bet the ratio of trains using the Manny B has been between 2:1 and 3:1 in favor of the H tracks on the northeast side of the bridge (and I'm not even counting the last decade, when all the trains have been using the Sixth Ave. tracks). Running a dispraportionate weight load for 70 years over a bridge that was designed wrong in the first place can't have helped the situation any, and the problem may have even been worse in the 1930s, 40s and 50s, when the BMT's much heavier rolling stock was in use on the Broadway line (the same way too many trucks in the right lane on an uphill stretch of interstate produces those annoying rutted lanes over a period of time).
The TA could have almost gotten the trains on both sides of the bridge to a 1:1 ratio after 1967 if they had opted for regular Q-Brighton service to 57-7th, Astoria or Continental Ave., instead of sending the QJ down the Brighton line via Montague, running the EE via B'way local to Coninental and having only the D offer midtown service to Brighton riders.
The Sixth Avenue tracks are the A/B tracks (north/east side of the bridge). The H tracks are on the Broadway Line side (south/west side), but Mr. Lee's got a point -- the side now used by Sixth Avenue trains has always seen heavier use than the side that's about to be used again by Broadway trains.
David
Oohps -- typing while groggy after a bad night's sleep will get you every time. I also botched Robert Mosseiff's last name, though the other correction is more important.
[If part of the problem with the bridge was caused by twisting due to the trains passing over, causing cracks due to the rigid box-like design Moiseriff came up with, then the problem would eventually have arisen no matter how well-balanced the trains operating on either side of the bridge were.... Running a dispraportionate weight load for 70 years over a bridge that was designed wrong in the first place can't have helped the situation any....]
The key words are "designed wrong"!! No service pattern will ever fully correct a poor design.
A less-bad placement would have been as follows: the south side of the bridge for the two southbound tracks (from Broadway and from 6th Avenue) and the north side of the bridge for the two northbound tracks (to Broadway and to 6th Avenue). That way, ALL loads would have to use BOTH sides (once in each direction), thus offering approximate balance under ANY service pattern. Compare PATCO on the Ben Franklin Bridge to/from Philly.
Of course, the existing tracks COULD be reconfigured that way, IF there were enough billions in the budget to do so!
That's the Williamsburg bridge that's 3 in one. (north roadway, trackway and south roadway. Each could be completely demolished and rebuilt from scratch, except on the main span where only the roadbeds were removed.) The Manhattan has those beams underneath that cross the entire width, twisting when trains go over, so it is more problematic.
I think the balancing of Bway/6th Ave service would've been obvious. As it stood, post-Chrystie service to midtown wasn't increased over pre-Chrystie service. All that was accomplished was the transferring of direct midtown service from the Brighton local (which had Broadway/tunnel service prior) to the West End (which only had Nassau St. TT service via tunnel)and vice versa (Bway QT becoming the useless QJ, and the TT becoming the B).
A much better way of doing things would've been to run the QB during the same hours as the QJ, and the retention of the Banker's specials or some sort of weekday service from Nassau to either Bay Ridge or Ditmas Ave. via the old Culver Shuttle.
Why didn't you just change to the N at 57th?
It didn't go to Brighton Beach or Ocean Parkway - so it would mean changing again a third time.
Anyway - we did discover a bus service from Astoria to Jones Beach and that's where we went after that.
And the reason I was so sad to see the "T" go is that Astoria lost its Broadway Express Service (boy did I hate making all stops when we went to lower manhattan).
As I’d noted before, had the color scheme inaugurated with Chrystie Street taken effect earlier, then the Astoria-Broadway-West End T would have been colored PMS 165 Orange. This, based on color photos of the R40 scale model with a sign “Times Square Special - T.”
Before Chrystie Street, did anyone actually call their train the "T", or "QT" or whatever,? Or did they,as my mother did right into the 1970s, just call 'em all the "BMT", while simultaneously referring to IND lines by their proper designations?
Cosniderign that BMT lines only received letter designations around 1960, and that they weren't even used on all trains on the same line (the "D-Triplexes continued to display numbers), I wonder how many folks really used them in every day speak.
That said, it would have been nice to think they did- the very notion of a "T" train is intriguing, as are other letters that we're not used to, Like V and W
My parents called the "T" the "West End", the Q, QT, or QB was simply the "Brighton". They also used "BMT" like your mother. On the other hand they referred to the IND as the "Eighth Avenue Subway", no matter where it went.
As I was growing up the R-32's were being introduced on the "T", while the "QB" and "QT" were getting R-30's so I was already getting used to the letter designations. I used (and still do use) the letters and names interchangeably. Guess I'm one of the few that calls the train that now goes to Astoria the "Sea Beach" as often as I call it the "N".
i can verify that we called them the culver, the sea beach etc. not sure we even knew that there were number designations.
I thought it was going to be black, as it was the forerunner of the B service. Since the EE was orange, I assumed the QT it replaced would have been the Broadway orange line; and the Q express, light blue, as it became the NX.
I know the model drawing for the E (inside the pre-Chrystie 1967 map) had the light blue, but when the actual cars were first displayed on the F, that sign was green, so I guess the color assignments were still formative.
Er . . . the F on that prototype sign was kind of lime/light olive green . . . sort of reminiscent of today’s G train, I guess. . . .
Thank you to all the guys that answered my post about the Pre-Chrystie Street construction. Except for a few weekend reroutes thru the Montague tunnel, there was not much diversion or inconvenience. There were a couple of interesting points brought up.
1. That was interesting to read that the Saturday after the official opening, R-32's were already being used on the "D" via. Brighton. I did not think anything but R1-9 was used on the "D" until the '70's!
2. That man on the news in 1967 that was fuming over the loss of the "Q" must still be waiting at Times Square for a Brighton Express run to get home. He'll make it home on July 22, 2001!!
3. I am assuming that because so much of the work force in the early part of the century was concentrated in the Financial District, it seemed to be an advantage to have loop service from Brooklyn via Bridge, then Nassau, then tunnel. I think I read that there were 2 Banker specials. The 4 Ave one ran via tunel, then Nassau, then Bridge. The Brighton Special ran via Bridge, then Nassau, then tunnel. So, Both tracks of the South Bridge were used, but probably just 5 times a day Mon-Fri!! One of you mentioned that the Bankers specials stopped using the bridge well before 1967. Another one of you mentioned that the connection was used fully until the last non-Holiday weekday before the closing.
4. You guys that were 16 at the time of the Chrystie St opening are the same age as my parents, but they could not remember anything about the construction!!
Thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it.
Now tell me the rolling stock used on the "NX", "RJ", "JJ", "QB", and "EE" lines at the time of the Grand St opening!!
Tony
Just a little touchup for ya ... you'd said:
"1. That was interesting to read that the Saturday after the official opening, R-32's were already being used on the "D" via.
Brighton. I did not think anything but R1-9 was used on the "D" until the '70's! "
The 32's appeared first on the D (I'm looking at the equation from the Bronx side) and the B/AA lines in the mid/late 60's ... R1/9's pretty much ruled the E, KK and CC lines at the time but appeared on the D into about 1972 as "put ins" for rush hour only. Back in those days, the TA was still short of cars and wanted the newest, shiniest on display at off-peak ... you rarely saw the R1/9's on the road except during rush hour (aside from the Rockaway line where they seemingly ran forever).
Just so's ya know you aren't completely out of it. :)
The AA, B, and D lines got R-32s when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I vivdly remember seeing R-32s on all three routes by December of 1967. Once in a while, a train of R-1/9s could still be found on the D on weekends after that. If we got one at 34th St., it became the subject of a national holiday for me.
It was at that same time they began redoing the R-10s in that half-and-half teal and white paint job. That was a bummer; I really liked the racing stripe scheme.
In addition to the weekend CC conversions, there were a good number of put-ins of R1/9's for rush ONLY, "good for one round trip" ... those were the ones I got. Folks not doing split shift got the shiny Budds ... but it was my first pick in each title and well ... you know what "first picks" are when you're so low down on the board that all you get are the ones that are dog-eared or look like they got torn up by others higher on the whizzing pole. :)
I didn't mind the picks for what I got to run ... but the hours ... oy.
NX=R27-30 EE=R1-9,R16 and some R38's RJ=R16 and R27-30's JJ=R16 and R27-30's[along with some AB standards] QB=R27-30 and some R32/32A Basicaly the Eastern Division line operated the same rolling stock with the exception of the L line.During that time,E.N.Y Yard had R16,some standards[running on the L,M,and some JJ rush hour putins]R27-30[fresh from thesouthern division]and last but not least,some R1-9's from the Jamaica Yard. hope this helps.
"NX R27-30's," Not when I rode or photographed. R-32's were what I saw.
Actually, in James C. Greller’s New York City Subway Cars book, on page 84, an R27/30 is plying its trade on the NX line. R27 #8180, to be precise.
Here's another R27 set on the NX, in April 1968:
That's a simply FANTASTIC picture!! Thanks for posting it!!!
Don't thank me, thank Dave. It's from this site.
Well, thanks both of ya!! You got it from Dave, but it came to my direct attention from you.
Where was that picture taken? Also what is that overpass and electric towers for? My guess might be 8th ave, and the electric poles for the Bay Ridge LIRR.
THAT'S MY TRAIN!!!!
N Broadway Line
far be it from me to deny such evidence, But a check of my prints shows (my lapse of memory) R-38 3954 with the rollsigns reading N Broadway Special, and the NX plaque on the chains accross the storm door. So it appears several classes were used.
Cars were scattered far and wide during this period, and you could find 2 or 3 classes making up one single train. Anything and everything could've run on the NX.
Of course, though it would later be S.O.P. on the IRT (or “A”) Division, 1969 was the year you would see different IND/BMT R units on one train for sure. Like an R27/30 in the back of a train of R42’s, or the one picture of an F train which featured an R40M followed by an R38 followed by an R40 slant non-air-conditioned. Or an R42 coupled with an R10 on an A train. Such combos, I.I.N.M., didn’t work out because no two sets of “B” Division R units really looked that much alike – unlike the postwar IRT cars (though seeing R12/14 and R15’s scattered amongst R17-36ML cars in trains was kinda weird).
Ah, yes, the dreaded smorgasbord trains. Luckily, I never saw R-10s intermixed with anything else; otherwise I would have had a stroke. The only mixed consists on the B division I ever saw were R-32s and R-42s on the D. Something tells me the yard crews didn't bother to sort out the various cars after yard moves and just left them coupled together as they were.
You must’ve missed when this picture was taken.
Heh. VERY typical of what I was used to back then ... the only thing I never saw was 44's and R6's ... now THAT would have been a helluva ride, Bucky Beaver style. :)
I was stunned when I saw that photo some time ago. Had I actually seen that train, I probably would have thrown a sreaming fit, being the solid train fan I am. One thing I was curious about was the door action on the R-10s in such a lashup. Did their door locks release when the conductor turned his key? Did the air escape when the "open" button was pressed? This assumes the conductor's station was in the R-42s.
While riding the R-16's on the "J" during the '80's, and turning the roll signs while nobody was looking, I never noticed an "RJ" designaton on either the coloured or the black/white rolls. How did the TA mark the "RJ" trains during 1967-8? Come to think of it, there were never any "NX" signs on either the R-16's or R-27-30's either!!
And does anybody remember how many "RJ" and "NX" rush hour limiteds were in service during their few months of life?? Sorry for all of these questions--but I was not born until '69, and my first memories of the subway are seeing a "KK" at Bway Lafayette circa 1973!!! Tony
The post above my last one, by Chris R27-R30 has a a really great shot of an NX on the Sea Beach Express with a black and white roll sign showing "NX" and a blue metal sign on a chain showing the "NX". Greller's books also shows a pic of an R27 or 30 marked "RJ".
I guess it's hard to find pics of trains marked like this because their lives were so short. I was born in 1968, so I also have no memory of these lines. But I think it's too bad the NX didn't last, and make some use out of the Sea Beach express tracks......don't you agree?
Hi WF, Yes, I saw the pics AFTER I did my post!!! The Sea Beach tracks would be the most productive today if special express trains ran to Coney Island during the summer. Tony
It truly is a shame. At least let then run it in summer for beachgoers. If I ran it the NX would run Broadway express, bridge, express on 4th and then express to C.I. from 59th. The thing is with one track abandoned by the TA, it would have to be directional (to Coney Island from like 11-3pm and from CI 3-7pm).
The multi-colored signage that was adopted on the R16/R32 and R38's were installed in 1969, well after the RJ, NX and MJ lines were eliminated, or at least scheduled to be eliminated. These signs were removed from the newer R32 and R38 in the mid-80's, but left in the soon to be mercifully scrapped R16's. I loved playing with them. They were also intriguing to me because they retained the old colors, double letters and a few lines which I didn't understand (TT, EE, KK and MM) and I never knew the difference between the QJ and JJ until well after the R16 was scrapped.
**They (the signs of colored lines) were also intriguing to me because they retained the old colors, double letters and a few lines
which I didn't understand (TT, EE, KK and MM). . . . **
Which is all the more reason why the rollsigns with pre-1978-colored IRT lines (grey 5, for instance) should be preserved upon their removal from the IRT Redbirds that are to be scrapped. Those IRT signs apparently were modelled after the way the arrangement on R46 signs worked out – black background, and grey used for black-colored lines.
The 1969-era multi-colored signs had two variations: one with Standard Medium, which was apparently the TA’s preferred typeface for the system (look at all the signs from the ’70’s, for example), and another with a more square-ish, sans serif typeface which was unique to Transign, the company that made all the rollsigns for R32’s and R38’s, as well as some replacement rollsigns for IRT R17-36ML units. For the most part, R32’s with the multi-colored signage used Standard Medium while R38’s with such signage had the Transign-designated font. The “J“ letter, for example, there are plenty differences between the two. R16’s, of course, were the only class of cars to have such multi-colored signage on the sides as well (below the two rollsigns indicating each destination), and the typeface on those signs was Standard Medium. One example, on the R16 6387 at the Transit Museum:
A 8 Av Exp
Speaking on this subject, what was the idea behind the MM? Myrtle Ave/6th Ave? Why was it never used?
Yes, the MM was supposed to go from Metropolitan Ave. to 57th St. via the Houston-Delancey connector. As to why it wasn't implemented, I don't know.
Some 32's were first placed in D service in the weeks before the change to familiarize the crews.
>I think I read that there were 2 Banker specials. The 4 Ave one ran via tunel, then Nassau, then Bridge. The Brighton Special ran via Bridge, then Nassau, then tunnel.
This was true for the PM rush. (The Brightons had no passengers on the Bridge run, though. In the AM, it was the reverse.
Tony:
This is in response to your query. I was fairly active in railfanning at the time and did ride the first train through the Chrystie Street Subway.1. Were the former Bankers Specials caused to terminate at Chambers because the tracks from Nassau to the South Bridge were going to be severed?
The last Nassau via Bridge trains ran during the PM on Wednesday,November 22, as Thursday was Thanksgiving Day there was no service to Nassau Street from the Southern Division. On Friday, November 24 all Southern Divison services to Nassau Street ran via the tunnel; ie#1(M),#2(M/S) and #3(TT)/
2. Were N, T, QT, Q, QB trains forced thru the Tunnel (MAJOR CONGESTION??) while the Broadway Express tracks had a new tunnel built from the Bway Express Canal Sta to the South, not North Bridge side?
The last QB ran during the early morning hours of Wednesday the 22. After that only the QT ran. This was in effect throughout Thanksgiving Day. The last Broadway via Bridge train train ran at the end of the pm rush on Friday the 24. All day Saturday all Broadway service ran via the tunnel.
3. Were "D" and "F" trains rerouted orhad their lines shortened for a day or 2 or 5 while the tunnel from Bway Lafayette was finished via. the ramp leading to Grand Street??
As the Chrystie Street Subway connected to the unused 6 Avenue express tracks east of Broadway-Lafayette St this portion of the conection had minimal effect on the D and F although for a one month period prior F weekday F trains were extended to 2 Avenue via the local tracks,
4. Or was it normal service one day, and then changed to the new patterns the next?
Saturday Nov 25 service on the IND was normal. BMT service was normal
except that all trains ran via the tunnel albeit on somewhat reduced schedules. The changeover was implimented in this way. Late Saturday night the last QT left Coney Island at 1159PM, the next arriving QT was resigned as a D train and left at 1210am. This was the first train
through the Chrystie Street tunnel. At Broadway-Lafayette St it met the first southbound D via Chrystie.
Southbound arriving D Culver trains at Coney Island were converted to F trains and stated running to Jamaica. The #2(RR) were simply extended from 57/7 to Astoria.
This was all before I was born, but I am curious. My family REMEMBERS the "D" via Culver (full of r1-9's "the cars with the straw seats), but they know nothing of the CONSTRUCTION related to the Chrystie St connection!!
Tony
I hope that this answers some of your questions.If you have more please don't hesitate to ask.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Say, Larry, did the T run at all on that Saturday, Nov. 25? They normally ran until 8 PM, then the TT shuttle took over between 36th St. and Coney Island. How about the Q? Was there Q service on Friday the 24th?
The T ran Sat., but through the tunnel. The Q ran Fri. as normal, as the bridge was not closed until about 8 PM, when the Q stopped running anyway.
Steve: I seem to remember that all four Southern Division services ran on that Saturday; N,QT,RR and T. Albeit via tunnel and on a somewhat reduced schedule. Broadway trains continued to run via the tunnel until early Monday morning,November 27. The Q did run on Friday the 24th. The last train from Broadway over the Bridge (North Side) was a T from Astoria-Coney Island I believe.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. It probably seemed a little funny to see a QT running on Saturday; after all, it normally ran at the same time the Q did. OTOH, since all trains were using the tunnel that weekend, and since that designation just happened to be available, it was a no-brainer. I would imagine they were using R-32s on the QT if they were being re-signed as D trains. Let me guess: the T trains were re-signed as B trains, right?
Couldn't have, because the B didn't run on midnights and Sundays. It was still the TT shuttle until the next group of changes in 1968, when the B became full time.
Hi,
If you click the "Simple Search" link at the top of the index you can limit your index view by author or subject (partial matches, case insensitive searches). It works well if you use chronological, all bets are off if you use threaded view -- it should work but it might look strange.
-Dave
I'm glad you brought searching back, Dave.
Thanks Dave. I find it really handy in compressed view for checking on responses to my posts. (It also shows me all of Todd Glickman's posts when I am searching for mine, but it always used to do that before you disabled searching.)
Last night, around 10:30pm, @ BMT TSQ-42, saw an R-68 consist pull out northbound with: a blue circle 'K' on one side route sign, an upside-down yellow, circle 'W' on another, and an orange diamond 'B' on one car-end. The end route designators and other side rollsigns read the usual yellow, circle 'N', and the destinations read "Ditmars Blvd. Astoria/Coney Island." The train was OOS.
Apparently, someone was having fun with the signs.
Having fun?I think people at the yard were not doing there job and sabotaging the destination signs.
This sounds like the Manh Br test train.
I saw that earlyer this week while railfaning
I was at the Transit Museum the other day and much to my disappointment, both of the Nostalgia Trains coming up are sold out. Thankfully, we still have that March of Dimes fieldtrip.
Dan
But, better not procrastinate or you'll miss that one too !
Mr t__:^)
I knew that would happen when the article came out in the Times!
Uh..........Is there one D-Type unit on display in the Museum they could press into service ? This would bring in more money for the Museum.
DUH !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How 'bout throwing in the standard, too. And the Q car.
"How 'bout throwing in the standard, too. And the Q car."
I hope you're kidding, those cars won't MU with the D-Types.
If the next two specials are sold out, I hope the Museum at least considered using the display D-Type unit in the Museum. That way it won't be a sell out so soon and they could bring more money in. Oh well, I was thinking out loud again !
Bill "Newkirk"
I was kidding. Anyway, the museum patrons of the day might miss it. Too bad there aren't any more.
Hmm, we appear to be experiencing a car shortage.
Don't understand it ... most of the Nostalgia Trips, till now, used all three D-Type units ... why are the recent trips only using two sets?
--Mark
I heard 6095 currently won't run under its own power.
I got tickets for the July 29th one. I was lucky. I don't know why the Museum only has like 3 a year. They seem to do very well. I feel a little guily because this is the second one I've been on. But, this time I'm going with my friend.
Is the museum willing to charter old cars, so to speak? Perhaps a group of SubTalkers could pitch in for a private outing.
They do just that, so you have to make arrangements. I saw the D types out on a private session last fall. The museum confirmed what I saw.
I think the Fall trip of which you speak was for big contributors of the museum ... it was "private" from that standpoint.
Mr t__:^)
Yet the museum people did tell me that private trips can be arranged. Ask them yourself and see. I did not ask the cost, but it may be up there.
Give my regards to those gentle behemoths.
What with the coming of the R-62s to the 7 line, the question of how to link the 11 car sets that the 7 normally runs is posed. Some stations on the 7 line (offhand, Willets Pt. and Vernon-Jackson) are large enough to admit another car.
The 7 line is one of the more heavily used lines in the system, servicing much of Northern Queens on its own. It's the only subway link for people in north-eastern Queens, who take the bus to the 7 in droves.
My proposal: Extend all of the platforms to 612' and a little more to allow for breathing room and put an R-62 single on each end of the train. Everyone is happy! Railfans get windows, harried passengers get more train and great A/C. T/Os are less happy. Hm. Assuming unlimited budget, as always, all T/Os get a big raise to counterbalance the loss of their full-width cabs.
Thoughts?
Dan
The R-62 measures 55 feet in length. Is it longer than a Redbird? Is a Redbird 10-car consist shorter than an R-62 consist?
And also, will #7 trains made up of R-62's (and/or 62a's) be ten or eleven cars? I believe only the #3 line has single 62's, the R-62's from Westchester and 240 Street yards seem to made up into 5 car trainsets. I'm not too familar with the number of available cars, but if singles from the #3 are used to made eleven car #7 trains, will there be enough cars's for the #3 line (I also believe I heard somewhere, most likely on this board that the #3 line would use 10 car trains as more cars become avaiable to the system as R-142's go on line).
The trains are (hypothetically) 2 5-car sets of 62s/62As with one R-62 single at each end, making 12 cars.
Dan
The R-62 is 51' the same length and width as a redbird.Specs here
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you. So what's the issue? Why would platforms have to be lengthened to accommodate exactly the same sized or shorter (10 car) train?
Platforms would have to be lenghtened and the number of conductors doubled to run 12 car trains with a net gain of 9% in service level. The same maximum service level gain can be accomplished by running 10% more trains, with no constrution costs and with far fewer additional personnel. The same number of additional cars would be required for both improvements.
they are not going to extend every single station on the 7. and who cares. as long as the r62a's have that little narrow window at the end and front of the car, its all good
I don't think that you can add more trains with the turnaround situation at Times Square. I've seen it mentioned in previous threads that trains over a certain length would need a second conductor. If I remember correctly in the early days of the "IND' they ran eleven cars and had two conductors near each end. How long can a train be in feet for one conductor to operate it? If I'm not mistaken the longest trains today are 600 feet. Is the rule in # of cars or # of feet. Thank you.
I don't think that you can add more trains with the turnaround situation at Times Square.
Times Sq. can theoretically handle 40 tph. That's the purpose of the tail tracks. They did handle 36 tph a generation ago. There has been no change in equipment nor structure, only personnel.
Judging by the fact that R-44-68 are 75' and BMT cars before that were 60' I guess it is a matter of feet.Maybe 75' is the limit since the R-110B and R-143 are going back to 60' instead of staying at 75'
The R-110B is 67' long.
The original arbitrator's decision went as follows.
At that time there were two conductors on practically all rush hour trains. The position was between the first two cars and between the last and next to last car. The conductors had a single car on one side and multiple cars on the other. The arbitrator stated that the additional work that the conductors would be doing would not be unsafe, if the length that they had to control was within the maximum length that they handling with two conductors.
For 10 car trains this meant that each of the two conductors were controlling 1 car towards the end of the train and 4 cars towards the middle of the train. For 11 car trains (IND E&F), this meant that one of the conductors was controlling 1 car towards the end and 5 cars towards the middle and the other was controlling 1 car towards the end and 4 cars towards the middle. The arbitrator ruled that conductors should be able to control two sections of five cars.
This ruling meant that a 10 car train could run with one conductor and the existing 11 car trains on the Queens Blvd Line would require 2 conductors. The TA solved that problem by removing the extra car.
Problem is you gotta be 6 feet tall to see out that little cubicle of a window. And most of the time they are blocked anyway.
Thank you. So the goal is a 12 car train. Not a bad idea on that line.
The maximum platform length that a single conductor can control in a single direction is 300 ft, according to an arbitrator's ruling back in the 1950's. Twelve car division A trains would require 2 conductors, unless the TWU were willing to reach some accomodation with the TA. There are currently 30 tph in the morning, with round trip running time approximately 1 hr. So, you will need at least 60 more conductor positions and will have to shorten trains for night and weekend use.
There is a car shortage. They currently have 35 trainsets at Corona, so you will need 35 additional cars. There will be greater shortages in the near future, when the folly of dedicated trainsets permeates all of Division A operations.
The net effect of running 12 car trains will be to increase service by 9%
There is an alternative. They can run more trains per hour. They have in the past. They currently run 30 tph (up from 27 tph). They used to run 36 tph in the late 60's and early 70's.
They could take 33 of the 35 required cars and form them into 3 additional trainsets. This would increase the peak capacity to 33 tph for a 10% increase. This would require 3 additional train crews or 6 more line positions, as opposed to 60.
There would be no necessity to break trains apart to save on night and weekend manpower. There would be no necessity or associated cost or delay in extending train platforms.
All they need to do is to figure out some way to dredge up some operating cars.
I don't think the signaling system can handle 12 car trains efficiently (if at all). There would probably have to be a lot of work done if they were to even try that.
>There would be no necessity or associated cost or delay in extending train platforms.<<
Where did you get that idea from???
Consider the placement of signals you have them at the front end of the platform and some at the back end at the entrance to the station. Do you intend for them to build the extension around the signals? That would not be safe for train movement.
What about the platforms in underground portion? They would have to start knocking down tunnel walls to extend platforms. That would cost real big $$.
>>All they need to do is to figure out some way to dredge up some operating cars. <<
A very interesting comment "dredge" when you consider one plan is to use retired Redbirds as an artificial reef somewhere.
I think you responded to the wrong post. Stephen Bauman was arguing AGAINST extending platforms; but rather increasing the number of trains per hour.
But aren't conductors on the 7 already controlling six cars in one
direction? So it must be okay to control six cars in both.
I'd surprised if they extend the platforms, though.
Damn...I'd forgotten about the conductor requirements. Just an idea.
Dan
Money Train on Cinamax tonight Friday Jul. 6th., in the East at 10PM. Wesley, Woody,& Robert Blake (its my train).....
That movie was terrible (except for the "Money Train" itself). Was it Jennifer Lopez's debut?
Jennifer is in movie, I think it was her 1st. one
Oh goody, Money Train.
The most inaccurate piece of drivel ever made about any kind of transit.
I did a synopsis of all the goof ups and what now about a week ago, here is the link to the post......
Click Here - Post #233176
And yes this movie was J.Lo's Debut to the screen!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
They put all that effort into trying to make a "real" subway set in LA and all they could come up with are R-30s? Why couldn't they get a couple of R-38's or an R-46 and build dummy trailers which would be hauled behind the motor car?
As to the stations, isit possible they didn't want the stations to be absolutely correct?
I remember an old Law and Order episode about a crime on the subway. The actors came out of a "28th St" station which was labelled as if it were Times Square: A-B-C-D-E-F-N-R and a couple of IRT lines for good measure.
I think this was really a station on the 8th Av line, serving the C and E only.
Sure it wasn't 42 Street-Lower Level?
I guess it's possible.
Watched it again------New facts 20 min. into movie Wesley scaming as a drunk on the platform is approached by two big women. Both are beer'ed up they want to take him home. One of the women is Jannet from the Soprano's. Tony's sister. This movie released 1995. She's come a long way since ten
Hello List:
I'm new to the list, but not to New York, moving out 27 years ago, and now thinking of moving back when I retire. I stumbled onto this webpage and am grateful. With the fountains of information available, somebody should be able to answer my question. If nobody can answer, I guess it means, it's not worth knowing.
I noticed that on the IRT, there are three roll signs in each car, listing the two terminals and then the description of the line, e.g. 7th Avenue Express, Lexington Avenue Express. I distinctly remember 30 years ago that the terminal sign was illuminated so that you knew which way the train was going. Today, the unsuspecting can get on the wrong train and go the wrong way. (This can happen on a center platform station, e.g. Wall Street.) If you miss the sign "Uptown and the Bronx" or "Downtown and Brooklyn" hanging from the ceiling, you can go the wrong way.
Does anybody know why the interior roll signs aren't illuminated any more? Is it the TA can't afford new bulbs or is to save electricity.
Michael
The side signs have not been illuminated in I would say over 20 years.
My guess is that it was a labor/cost saving measure to discontinue maintaining the bulbs and related electrical systems for the sign boards.
They were still used before the R33-36 became red.
I would say up until 1989. I'm not sure.
Often showed the wrong direction anyway...
The 4/5 Wall Street Platforms are side wall platforms, not island/middle platforms.
He was talking about the roll signs in the trains not the signs in the stations.
I was referring to the comment on Wall Street being a center platform.
When I wrote that Wall Street is a center island platform, I didn't specify which Wall Street station. I was referring to the #2/#3 Wall Street station on the 7th Avenue/B'way Line.
Next time I'll remember to be more specific.
Michael
This feature was removed when the r-26 through R-38 cars were GOH'd back in the mid to late 1980's. Can't really tell you why, although the low voltage circuit breakers that controlled these (#10 & 11) still exist in the #2 cabs on the R-32's.
I noticed that on the IRT, there are three roll signs in each car, listing the two terminals and then the description of the line, e.g. 7th Avenue Express, Lexington Avenue Express
It's not necessary IRT trains that have those signs, just the older stock on either division, the IRT "Redbirds" (R26,28,29,33,36--both Mainline and Worlds Fair varieties), and the BMT/IND R32s and R38s. Anyway, the redbirds are about to be phased out, and the R38's will be on their way out in a few years (not right away.)
The R40, R42, R62, R68, and pre-GOH R44 and R46 have (or had) those luxuriant rollsigns with the big bullet and both destinations but no route name and still no indication of direction. I still think they're the best rollsigns, though.
The current R44 and R46 as the new guys, the R142 all have digital signs (The r142 has a decent LED, while the 44 and 46 have puke yellow LCDs.) One thing they DO provide is direction---the only terminal shown is the one the train is heading towards, and they do show the route name too, but not both at the same time, and the route color is sacrificed. I actually think these signs are pretty lousy on the whole.
:-) Andrew
I rode the F line to Coney Island July 4.
The Nathan's Hot Dog Eating contest was fun - Where did that guy put Fifty Frankfurters? Is he still among the living? Did he have his stomach pumped afterward? All jokes aside, I congragulate him on establishing a record which should stand for at least awhile (Look, if Cal Ripken can break Lou Gehrigs record, nothing is safe!!)
Anyway, my question is this: There are two center tracks at Church Street, which are not in use. Were these ever used, or were these for the IND "Second System."
They were used at one time. The F train used to have 2 services in Brooklyn. An Express that terminated at Kings Highway. A Local that
went all the way down to Coney Island.
For a short time the G was extended to Church Street as well. The track acted as the terminal.
We are talking 1970's.
By the way - that guy has a hollow leg. Where else would 50 franks go?
I think you may mean Church Avenue. The center tracks are presently used only during GOs and special events. This may change in the future. Currently, new facilities are being built at Church Avenue so that it may be used as a terminal (presumably by the G at some later date)
I read an earlier post that stated the express tracks were unusable, except for GOs, after the tower fire a year or 2 ago- that tripppers need to be tied down, flag-men posted, etc......
It's really true that there's a current project to restore full functionality to these tracks? It would be a shame for them to be used for GOs only, which often leads to total abandonment.
(It's really true that there's a current project to restore full functionality to these tracks? It would be a shame for them to be used for GOs only, which often leads to total abandonment. )
Yes, a project to rebuild the Bergen Street interlocking is scheduled to be awarded soon.
I assume you guys are talking about Church Av station. The late, great F express history of the early 1970's is as follows:
First, all F's ran express Bergen to Church, both directions during rush hours. From Church to Kings Highway, the CI F ran express in the peak direction while the Kings Highway F ran local. The GG (as it was designated then) ran local to Church Av.
After complaints from the local stop riders between Church and Bergen, the Kings Highway F's ran local. This was still not enough.
Then, all F's ran local, with the GG terminating at Smith-9th. The CI F's ran express express in the peak direction from 18th Av to Kings Highway.
Shortly after this, the whole "experiment" was abandoned.
Anyway, the express tracks going north from Church Av are....express tracks! They "re-appear" at 7th Av.
The express tracks going south exit the portal with the local tracks, and through the 4 into 3 merge prior to Ditmas Av when the IND was extended to incorporate the Culver line in 1954.
Switching off from both the express and local tracks are two other tracks which go to a "mini-yard" underground. Trains that terminate at Church Av use these to turn around.
Someone get salaam a prozac. As of today, all R-36s have been removed from the #6 line. The last 22 were ordered transferred today to Concourse yard for eventual 'emersion'.
As for car #2155. Apparently (after backtracking it in the computer) it was in Corona Yard briefly last week. The manager I spoke to was not sure why. It may simply have been part of a transfer move that either was delayed or broke down there. More later.
> As of today, all R-36s have been removed from the #6 line.
We only saw one or two trainsets on Wednesday including cars 9514 and 9523. Do you have the rest of the numbers, Steve?
-Dave
I have the #s at my office. I received the transfer ticket for the last 22 cars including the ones you mentioned. I don't have the cars yet. I'll try to compile the complete list on Monday
Question for train dude are the redbirds gone fron the # 6 or not ?? ( thank you ) see you this fall !!
This may sound Horrible but your redbirds are being pulled out of of service and being sent to the Corona yard where they will be submerged in water.
I suggest you get a tissue salaam.
AHH MAN!!! more mainlines???? give us some r62a's sheeeesh!
Finally a good wash...
last time i was there & checked it out in person... the corona yard was not under water ....................yet !! lol !!
If only they rode the 1 more often... you'd SEE
where the 'boids REALLY are parked...
Corona Yard is frequently under water. The water table around Corona is relatively high and so, anything more than a sprinkle is trouble. The new Corona yard (which will include a new maintenance shop, new car wash, wheel truing machine, a loop and many more tracks) will be raised several feet to prevent this in the future.
What with that creek or river or whatever is is nearby, that is not surprising. The stink coming from it is terrible, and I guess the guys working in the area are used to it by now. That whole area is a wetland, so how about installing a drain-tile system with the new construction so that flooding can be kept to a minimum?
Right you are Train Dude. The Flusing tidal basin is famous for that. Many years ago I worked for a private weather company that had a contract with ConEd. We had to call them
anytime the tide was expected to be more than a foot above normal,
or if heavy rain was expected. They had a yard for their truck fleet
near Corona Yard, and had to move the trucks so they wouldn't get
stranded in water!
I had been up all Friday night this weekend doing various stuff online, when around 3:00 AM I checked the Tribune's weather page and noticed what looked on the radar to be a rather strong thunderstorm moving into the area.
I've always loved watching thunderstorms, so I gleefully walked down to the end of the hallway (where there's a west-facing window with a good view from the 8th floor) and sure enough, I could see an incredible amount of lightning on the western horizon. This was going to be a big one.
About half an hour later the storm finally made its way to where I was, and ended up being one of the most violent thunderstorms I've ever been in. The lightning and thunder was almost continuous, with at least a dozen or so close lightning strikes in my neighborhood. The rain was torrential, and the winds were very strong and gusty. Because I don't have air conditioning, I had my windows and blinds open so I could get some degree of air circulation in my apartment, so I was able to see and hear every detail of this storm.
Around 4:00 or so, the storm seemed to be dying down a bit and I was very sleepy, so I decided to try to get some sleep. The ongoing storm was preventing me from getting a very restful sleep, but I still managed to get some shut-eye off-and-on between blasts of thunder and lightning. This would turn out to be one of the spookiest nights in recent memory... Too bad Halloween is still a few months away.
Around 4:30, while still somewhat asleep, I heard a noise right outside my window that I swear sounded like a man screaming as he fell off a nearby high-rise. I jumped wide awake, with my heart racing a mile a minute, only to realize the sound I heard was actually some cab driver blowing his horn as he drove past my building. It's funny how your mind plays tricks on you when you're half-asleep. With my heart still trying to jump out of my chest, I tried to settle back down and fall asleep again. By this time I noticed the storm had started to pick back up again, with several close lightning strikes and loud blasts of thunder.
I had been asleep for maybe another 20 minutes or so, when all of a sudden my apartment was filled with a blinding flash of white light accompanied by a massive explosion that shook my building to its foundation. I'm still not certain exactly where the lightning hit, but I suspect it was either the elevator penthouse of my building (about 50 feet outside my window) or maybe the taller apartment building next door (also visible from my window). Even with my eyes closed, the flash of light was bright enough to make my eyes hurt, and the thunder was ear-splitting. At such close range, it doesn't even sound like typical thunder; it's more of an extremely loud crackle and then, a split-second later, a deafening explosion.
Needless to say, this scared the living piss out of me and the next thing I know I was standing straight up with the lamp turned on. I walked over to the window half-expecting to see a smoldering ruin where the elevator penthouse used to be, but couldn't see anything to indicate exactly where the lightning had hit.
After a few minutes, the storm again seemed to be dying down a bit, and I deemed it safe enough to plug my computer back in and turn it on. I checked the weather radar again, and two large cells had passed over us that were each colored the darkest red on the radar's color range.
Around 5:00 I eventually got back to sleep and was able to put this weirdest of nights behind me.
What surprised me, though, was the fact that no severe thunderstorm warnings or watches had been issued for the area. Here in the Midwest during spring and summer, severe thunderstorm watches are pretty much a dime a dozen, and most times they either bypass us or amount to little more than just average thunderstorms. In this case, however, we had one of the most severe storms I've ever witnessed, and yet not a single watch box.
My question: Does the National Weather Service have some other criteria for severe storms other than frequent lightning, strong winds and torrential rains; or do they simply prefer to issue storm watches and warnings during prime time so the TV networks can boost their ratings for the evening news?
-- David
Chicago, IL
A severe thunderstorm needs to have wind gusts over 50 knots and/or hail over 3/4 inch, and/or a tornado. Otherwise, it's just a "garden variety" thunderstorm. The frequency or intensity of lightning doesn't come into play in this definition.
Here's a link to more on the subject.
Well, David, I guess I'll have to start having bad dreams about architecture now.
...now, back to the trains!
Well, David, I guess I'll have to start having bad dreams about architecture now.
Doesn't going through NYC Penn Station as often as you do count as an architectural bad dream? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Good point. Fortunately when I wake up, I'm at GCT :-)
I'm here in Northwest FLA right now, (right off the gulf of Mexico) and you should see some of the T'Storms we're getting here, especially with it being so hot (mid 90's) and the humidity and dewpoint so high. They're exactly like the ones you're talking about. They're pretty cool. They come out of nowhere and really unleash a lot of force. The coolest storm here though was by far hurrcane Erin. There was a small tornado on the street about 1/4 mile from my house, and trees and houses were destroyed. We didn't have power (which includes no A/C) for 3 days, and the whole neighborhood was pitch black at night.
I lived in Jacksonville for four years, so I remember the Florida storms very well. During the spring and summer, we could set our clocks by the storms that would appear almost every afternoon around 3:30 PM. Some of them were pretty severe.
Of course, this was always around the time my manager at Winn-Dixie would send me out to the parking lot to round up the stray shopping carts. Hmmm...
-- David
Chicago, IL
I lived in Jacksonville for four years, so I remember the Florida storms very well. During the spring and summer, we could set our clocks by the storms that would appear almost every afternoon around 3:30 PM. Some of them were pretty severe.
Of course, this was always around the time my manager at Winn-Dixie would send me out to the parking lot to round up the stray shopping carts.
Now, if he sent you up to the roof to adjust the TV antenna, then you're really know he didn't like you :-)
THe worst thunderstorm of my life was at Jones Beach. This was about two years ago. I took the JB62 down to Jones Beach. After about an hour there the beachfront was cleared due to lightning sighting.
I figured I'd head back to the bus stop. Well the storm was moving in. The sky to the northwest was black as night, with constant lightning. All the shelter I had was a metal roof and some seats. And people started to crowd under there as the storm came. A big gust of wind, probably 50mph hit before the storm came. Then the torrential rains, which were horizontal so I got soaked. But the lightning was everywhere, and so close you could feel it. The bus stop is right by the Jones Beach tower, which I believe was struck several times. The lightning was blinding, and the thunder was simultanious. It was scary because I wasn't in a building, as all of whatever few buildings at Jones Beach closed up and the beach and boardwalk became a ghostown, just about 20 of us under a dinky little shelter in what felt like a hurricane with lightning. Everything flooded too. The bus finally came about 15 minutes after the first rain drops fell and it was still coming down. Amazingly the LI Bus CNG Orion, which ran very quiet made it back to the mainland just fine.
I do like thunderstorms but I wouldn't want to go through a storm like that again on the outside.
Part of the reason I don't like Jones Beach is when these quick developing storms arrive, there little place for shelter. Long Beach has buildings along the boardwalk, plus the town is a 5 minute walk so you can usually get there in time when you see the first bolt of lightning in the distance.
Sounds like the doozy of a thunderstorm we had in Denver yesterday. To quote Frank Corrall, "Oh, nothing. Lots of fallen tree branches, flooding on I-25 at Evans Ave., the power's off in places. Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy." Luckily, one of things slated for improvement in the massive rebuilding of I-25 is the drainage system. It's starting in another couple of months.
Flushing-Corona is like one big overflowing toilet. And the poor Redbirds are at it's mercy. Where do they store the trains when it floods?
I lived in Flushing as a child. You're absolutely right about the stink!
Lately, the stench has come from the Mets.
question : a lot of mosquetos around there also ?? & if the r-142 fleet gets flodded out how would they repair those new junkers
that a lot of subtalkers worship the new scrap-ready R-142s ................. ( like the gods-& they are not ) etc...!!!!
And if the flood puts a yard full of R-142s under water how soon would they be able to go back into service ??
& Train Dude ( sir ) all due respects here but wouldnt the R-142s be just like the new automobiles etc.....
ONCE THEY GO UNDER WATER THEY ARE FINISHED & DONE & JUNK READY FOR SCRAP !!! he he he he LOL !!!
I really would appreciate your expert response to this sir !! thank you !!!
Salaam, the sir is really not necessary. Many years ago (over 18) there was a water main break on Bruckner Blvd. on the #6 line. 4 trains were submerged on a Saturday AM, some up to the roofline. All were what has become known as redbirds. After we pulled them out, they were all dieseled up to 207th Street. They were hosed down to get rid of the sewage and other debris. The group switch boxed was also hosed down. Once they were powered up the propulsion systems on over 1/2 of them functioned normally. The air systems, of course, needed to be purged and then repaired. They were great cars for their day.
About 13 years ago, two R-68A trains were trapped in a flood at 145th Street. The floors and most of the converters were damaged.
About 10 years ago, 2 trains of R-46s were trapped at Parsons Blvd. on the F line by a flash-flood due to rain. The floors survived as did the propulsion packages but 3 converters (out of 8) needed to be replaced.
The R-142, R-142A and R-143 have a much higher reliance on electronics, especially in the propulsion area. I would expect that under the same circumstances, they would be much more severely damaged (although I doubt not to the point of scrapping). Such is the nature of electronics. Yes, we could make them water-tight or water-proof at the expense of increased weight. The point is we don't make them with snow plows on the front end. We don't build them to withstand tornados, They are not built to withstand tidal waves. The cars are built to perform optimally under a normal range of environmental conditions. You deal witht he extremes when the extremes occur.
Now just to clarify, the older cars were not all that great in less than extreme conditions. The Westinghouse cars would be sluggish in the winter if they didn't freeze altogether. The GE cars would have a rough time in extreme heat. Stone Safety A/C motors were burning out, especially on the R-32s that were layed up in tunnels where the ambient rose to over 100 degrees.
To summerize my answer for you: yes, the R-142/142A/143s will sustain more damage in floods than their predecessors did. But how often do we have floods of that nature? On the otherhand, the R-142/142A/143s will perform better than their predecessors over a wider range of normal operating conditions. They will provide greater safety and comfort with less maintenance. Yes, they've had their teething problems and some of those problems have been significant. But those problems are less significant than some of the problems that plagued the R42s, theR-44/R-46 and the R-68s. Keep in mind that the R-44s and R-46s had to be completely overhauled after 15-20 years before they were considered reasonably reliable. It took 10 years to get the R-68s tot he point at which they now perform. Before you lock yourself into a precarious position of being associated with the ultimate doom of the R-142/142A/143s, why don't you wait and see what happens.
The R-142, R-142A and R-143 have a much higher reliance on electronics, especially in the propulsion area. I would expect that under the same circumstances, they would be much more severely damaged (although I doubt not to the point of scrapping). Such is the nature of electronics. Yes, we could make them water-tight or water-proof at the expense of increased weight.
Even the 142's et. seq. are a lot more flood-resistant than motor vehicles. Submerge a regular motor vehicle in floodwaters, and it's junk yard time!
>>> Even the 142's et. seq. are a lot more flood-resistant than motor vehicles. Submerge a regular motor vehicle in floodwaters, and it's junk yard time! <<<
That's because of the relatively low price of an automobile and the use of fabrics and padding in the interiors. If cars had hard plastic seats and no headliners, it probably would be economical to tear down the engine and clean it up. It's the interior of the car that is never the same again, and some unscrupulous used car dealers do buy and resell flood damaged cars.
Tom
some unscrupulous used car dealers do buy and resell flood damaged cars.
Quite true. Crafty dealers have a way of "sanitizing" salvage titles.
thats the same reason they had to rebuild casey stengel depot back in 1993(?).
when they built the original they only put pilings around the exterior walls causing the center of the floor to sag and water from underground to seep up.
I know that I answered this question elsewhere but perhaps it bears repeating;
The R-36 Redbirds (or redfins) have been removed from service. The R-29s etc may still be in their death-throws for another few days.
There is still one set running as of Saturday 7/7/01 Operating Motor 9523 was running. One of the trips was the 09:49 Pelham/ Brooklyn Bridge.
>>>Someone get salaam a prozac.<<<
He needs more than that...much more.
Peace,
ANDEE
Prozac, Ritlin, a Tranquilizer Dart, Maybe a Titanium Be Be Bullet!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
What about N2O?
ROTFLMAO
My Brother !! ( T.Lo ) !!! I do hope you are not one of THOSE PEOPLE who go outside every fourth of july & every new years
eve / new years day & point your gun up to the sky & start shooting !! remember the bullet you fire does come down! ( somewhere )
it is not a good idea to do anywhere !!
"My Brother !! ( T.Lo ) !!! I do hope you are not one of THOSE PEOPLE who go outside every fourth of july & every new years
eve / new years day & point your gun up to the sky & start shooting !! remember the bullet you fire does come down! ( somewhere )"
Not if one uses blanks.
!! yes but you may live in an area that uses gunshot monitors etc......... the police are on the way to see why you did this !!
lol !!!....??
Not all have been removed. On the way home this evening I saw 2 full sets of redbirds and at least a pair sitting in the back in Westchester Yard.
Also as the train of R62A's that I was on was approaching Pelham Bay Park at train of Redbirds was pulling out - In service. I was looking in the opposite direction at first so I only caught a few of the car numbers: 9545, 9523, 9524.
Who knows there may have been others still out on the road somewhere.
I said they've been removed from service! They may physically be in Pelham (Westchester) Yard but they are out of service pending transfer to Concourse Yard. According to the managers at pelham Yd., there are no more redbirds in service on the #6 line.
According to the managers at pelham Yd., there are no more
redbirds in service on the #6 line
You said the R36's were pulled. What about the 29's?
R-29s were on the 6 this evening.
I did see 2 sets of R36's today running out of Parkchester so I guess I seen them on there last run.
Myself and Pel Exp had 3 R142A's today.
I saw one set heading northbound from 59th at about 2:50 PM.
Residents who trespass on Norfolk Southern's Columbia and Port Deposit branch to fish in the Susquehanna River have been warned by NS to desist. Some had built docks on PRR property and have used them for generations, but this is now, and NS can claim concern about liability.
Story from Pailpace
Fish and Boat Commission statement
I'll bet if some trains started derailing NS would change their tune. You don't screw with back woods people...EVER!
A reasonable solution would be for NS to construct a pedestrian crossing or two over the ROW to allow access. The article also says there is a designated grade crossing, so there is no excuse for anyone to cross railroad tracks unsafely.
I believe that you have mis-read the commission article. Only official fishing holes have designated grade crossings, it says. The squatters' don't.
I wonder if it is possible to obtain a presriptive easement across a railroad ROW or to obtain title to railroad land by adverse possession. If so, and assuming that these docks have been there long enough, their users may have a right to keep them there and to cross the ROW to get to them.
That depends on a lot of things. But I imagine a compromise can be worked out. NS should be able to operate their trains efficiently and safely, and the fishing enthusiasts should have reasonable access to the water via safe venues.
I wonder if it is possible to obtain a presriptive easement across a railroad ROW or to obtain title to railroad land by adverse possession. If so, and assuming that these docks have been there long enough, their users may have a right to keep them there and to cross the ROW to get to them.
I believe that in most states, possibly all, property owned by railroads (and usually also public utilities) cannot be taken by adverse possession.
i forgot to say that they already put alot of houses or control rooms or whatever that is called on alot of stations. they are white colored with a/c's on them. is that for cbtc too or what?
CBTC WON'T BE COMING TO THE 7 LINE UNLITT IT IS PROVING ON THE "L". THIS WON'T BE UNTILL ABOUT 2006 OR SO.
ROBVBERT
I was at Hoyt st on the A train when I saw 3 Redbird cars on the closed platform I wonder if they have room with its worlds fair predecessor in the museum.
They have room for maybe one car but not all 3. I don't know if they would put only 1/2 of a married pair there. But to put both of the pair would just be a waste of track space.
When the R-32s,38s,&40s retire do you think they will fit in transit museum?
Probably not.
Those will most likely sit in Coney Island yard with other cars. Unless they can figure a place to relocate the Museum to larger faciltites they will have be very choosy as to what to display.
Or as I said in an earlier post either yesterday or today, the Transit Museum like all museums will have to rotate its collection. IIRC, I read somewhere that the average museum only displays about 10% of its collection at any one time, so I would not be adverse to the NYTM rotating cars between Court St. and Ci Yard. Would give railfans a reason to visit more often. More admissions = more revenue.
The TA rotate Museum equipment? Yeah right.
They have R30 #8506, which, IIRC, is a half married pair.
They already have an R33 single stashed in there.
There is also an R17. Does this count, or does it have to be R26 - R36?
Anyone with subway maps from 1979-1989 give a holler .I am willing to pay money for them.
I've got a bunch of 'em, most of them I aquired myself from MTA when they were new. I also have older ones from the 1960s that my mother let me have when I was a kid, as she didn't see any use for 'em, as they were outdated.
Also, I occaisonally find decent ones laying around my office when we move furniture, etc, although those soemtimes have marks on them- somebody was going someplace or whatever.
But in 1999, nobody but our crowd here would miss a 1974 subway map, LOL.
And, I'm sorry, NONE are for sale.
>>>>And, I'm sorry, NONE are for sale.
The poor guy is asking to buy some, not to find out how many that you have!
Geez, I'd hate to have you around in the event I accidentally get an open wound. You might pull out a large container of Morton Salt.
I'm sorry. I didnt mean to be nasty. It's just that nobody outside of this community would even care, LOL!!
Sorry :)
I don't think that anybody outside of this message board would even care about ANYTHING on here!
I think you're right on that one, LOL!
I have 1972, 1974, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1987, December 11 from Transit Digest magazine, 1990 (both versions). I may also have 1983. Got a few bus maps for Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx and Manhattan with similar dates as well.
I have a friend who can make full color one-sided copies onto poster paper, no way I'm selling the originals.
Click here for a listing of subway maps on www.ebay.com
You would have to register to bid on any items (it's free).
http://www.queenstribune.com/news.html#news6"Underground Crossings &
'Radar' Cameras For Queens Boulevard", Queens Tribune, 6/28
Using the subway as a pedestrian underpass - "It's pretty cut and dry," DOT sez. It's about time they noticed :).
What planet are they from? I have used the underpass at Kew Gardens to cross Queens Blvd. It's been there for years.
The safest way to cross Queens Blvd is via the subway's mezzanine.
I completely agree, and I've always done the same. I'm just amazed that it took DOT this long to figure it out, after spending so much time and money studying pedestrian overpasses...
Yeah. You don't have to be Einstein to figure this one out. Still, it's an imperfect solution for those who may have problems climbing too many stairs.
:-) Andrew
It would be a good time, then to try and get some ADA funding for elevators to be installed at those stations, which could also serve people needed to use the underpass but unable to climb and/or descend the stairs. Each station would probably need four elevators -- street to mezzanine fare control area on both sides of Queens Blvd. and then mezzanine to platform for both eastbound and westbound platforms -- but it would still probably be cheaper than erecting overpasses.
Excellent point. The elevator to mezzanine would provide a nice way to let people cross the Blvd - or continue within fare control on another elevator to the train.
Yes, very good.
Who's tab it's going to is the question? How can TA justify non revenue generating expenses?
Arti
If the TA was going to build those overpasses, why not elevators instead?
DOT would have had to build the overpasses not TA.
Arti
So let DOT build the elevators.
>>> How can TA justify non revenue generating expenses? <<<
Isn't the TA obligated under the ADA to incur the expense of making the system ADA compliant? Why not do it first at stations which will benefit the most people?
Tom
[Isn't the TA obligated under the ADA to incur the expense of making the system ADA compliant? Why not do it first at stations which will benefit the most people? ]
They are, but for transit access. Also wouldn't you say that the key stations would be the priorty. Another thing is that it's usually (and I believe mandated) done during station rehabs.
Arti
Plus the MTA might even be able to get a few $$ from the Department of Transportation for the project, since the DOT would be saving a bunch of money by not having to built those overpasses.
Excellent point. The elevator to mezzanine would provide a nice way to let people cross the Blvd - or continue within fare control on another elevator to the train.
Yes, very good.
I'd call for a study. I highly doubt that anyone would use it regardless. Most people would rather sacrifice their safety to save few seconds.
Arti
Barricading the crossing areas (the sidewalk parts of the traffic islands) at sites above the subway stations on Queens Blvd. would help "encorage" people to use the mezannine underpasses, or try to cross in the middle of the traffic coming up or down the side street, which is not a viable option for most people (and there's nothing radical about this, since there are several cross streets along Broadway at the major avenue intersections between 14th and 72nd streets where no pedestrian walkway is set up, in order to force people to use safer alternatives, albeit above-ground ones).
[Barricading the crossing areas (the sidewalk parts of the traffic islands) at sites above the subway stations on Queens Blvd. would help "encorage" people to use the mezannine underpasses, ]
Doesn't seem to work in Midtown.
Arti
>>> Still, it's an imperfect solution for those who may have problems climbing too many stairs. <<<
You hit the nail on the head there. The old and infirm, the ones least able to dodge traffic, also have the most difficulty using the stairs. Maybe this should be a reason to increase the priority to make the stations in the area ADA compliant.
I have knee problems which make stairs painful to climb or descend, but I am still able to use stairs when necessary. Since I have not personally seen the traffic on Queens Boulevard lately, I do not know whether I would use the underpass or not to cross, but I would have to be really afraid of the traffic to use the stairs.
Tom
Another reason to keep the booths--many senior citizens avoid these underpasses because they are often deserted and the seniors fear crime. Late at night, especially at the main booth, there arwe many people waiting just inside the fare control, under the watchful eyes of a friendly neighborhood station agent!
Another reason to keep the booths--many senior citizens avoid these underpasses because they are often deserted and the seniors fear crime.
They can pay money to be chauffeured around. I don't want to have to pay a higher fare to support somebody's salary just because somebody has irrational fears.
You're absolutely right- somehow all the underpass advocates have completely overlooked the fact that a lot of people who have difficulty getting across the Boulevard on ground level would have MORE difficulty going up and down stairs.
Also overlooked is that there isn't a station and underpass at every corner. It's a good seven blocks between the underpasses 67th Drive and 70th Road, and somebody needing to cross the Boulevard at 69th Avenue will not be inclined to walk that far out of the way just to use an underpass.
Not only that, the distance between the stairs to the street and the token booth at 67th Avenue is very long (due to the extreme width of the Boulevard) and rather dark. The only time there's a lot of people using it is when departing an outbound train. Otherwise it's a mugger's buffet.
AP article, picked up by a northern NJ paper
http://www.bergen.com/biz/amtrak06200107061.htm
it's about how Amtrak is branching out into mail, fast freight, souvenirs, and station amenities in order to gain more revenue.
The ARC wants them to stick to only passengers & mail.
Looks like that debt is going to kill them mighty quick unless they get a bailout or can refinance it.
HEY! Now they can have acela Mail trains!
I was riding PATCO today when, as our train was passing Collinswood, the dispatcher got on the horn and ordered every train to limit themselves to 20 in the subway and 40 on the mainline. Our T/O (the cool blond haired one with the tatoos) said that this happens when there is some sort of power distrabution problem. Well I rode it out of Lindenwold to see the 401 and 402 cars (at 40 mph). Once there they coupled on two more cars (to make a 6) and we were about to head out when the dispatcher ordered the T/O to put the train in Emergency. He did and about 4 minuttes later all these track workers climbed up from the tracks having done a ground inspection. This is when we found out what the problem was. Some train had some sort of ground fault and had blown out two main power feeds. They were limiting the trains to 40 as they did not want the faulty train to blow out the other one. After our train was inspected we were cleared for 65. All in all it was a very interesting ride and my train ended up pacing an NJT train on the way back to Haddonfield.
Are 401, 402 and 404 still in the Lindenwold yard?
Yes. Right where you left them.
/*(the cool blond haired one with the tatoos)*/
This is why I could never be a T/O or locomotive (driving) engineer. people would run out of the train if they saw me, with long hair, biker jacket, etc, hop into the cab. Heh. I don't have any tattoos (yet).
Anyway, Patco is a bizzare system. It ranks as the *only* transit system I've ever been trapped inside, thanks to those god aweful turnstiles.
Man, how OLD are they, anyway?
YOU SHOULDA SEEN what the "ta" hired in the late 60's/early 70's. Heh. Beside biker types, longhaired hippie types, and lots of folks that didn't look like what people would have expected between the cars or up front. When I was a "hippie conductor," I usually got teamed up with a guy who looked like Lt. Harris from Barney Miller (Ben) or this guy Chuck who looked like the character "Animal" in "Cheech and Chong's Nice Dreams" (Biker - "wanted - hates Mexicans") ... Chuck never got any guff when he chose any table he wanted at Stillwell. Heh.
The TA has usually had a wonderful diversity of people and attitudes over the years - if you can keep your nose clean and do the job, they don't much care WHAT you look like as long as you're clean and presentable and learned the gig.
That speaks well of your employer.
Heh. What can I say? Back then they were DESPERATE for warm meat and paid OUTRAGEOUS opening salaries to "reel 'em in" ... literally a civil service test and a dream. :)
1968 through 1972 appeared to be a "peak time" for retirements and there were serious staff shortages at the time as a result. Literally, new hires were "fast tracked" ... I wanted R1/9's, by gum, I *got* em. And after being on the road as a conductor and promoted to motorman after only about 4 months as a conductor, you could just SENSE the panic in hummin' resources ("personnel" at the time) to move anybody up who could tell a handle from a bottlecap and didn't REFUSE the school car ... I tell ya, I was psyched and DAMNED lucky to have gotten the promotion.
Granted, as it turned out after a yard move mishap caused by a bad gasket, I washed out of the corps ... but I really enjoyed it while it lasted, despite all sorts of ridiculous crap at the hands of a few who didn't like the fact that I was 1) a new hire, 2) promoted like sheet through a goose and 3) "hung out with the wrong elements" while on duty ... out alone in a cab or playing car monkey, it was a gas. When I had to hang with some not-so-nice coworkers who didn't like the idea that "freaks and minority type individuals were taking over the system" the gig really chewed ... but out on the road, we were all (was it Zman? said) just looking for our biweekly nut ... GREAT times with the D train crews I worked with ... on the road.
And EVERY day was an adventure. I remember an RCI named Dale who was also someone who made my day. Now Dale was one of those guys who would also scare the geese ... Ex-Marine who had a way with R1/9's ... he'd break out the hammer and DAMN if the car wouldn't submit to his bangings. They were AFRAID of this guy. When he boarded, the train closed up and BEHAVED. Heh.
Anyway, Patco is a bizzare system. It ranks as the *only* transit system I've ever been trapped inside, thanks to those god aweful turnstiles.
Man, how OLD are they, anyway?
The present PATCO turnstiles replaced the originals, so they're not as old as PATCO.
What did the originals look like? The current red ones ane the only ones I've ever known. I saw one being maintainenced the other day. The insides are really cool.
The current ones date to the late 1970's, I believe. The originals were a two-set affair with each set looking a little like a clamshell. When you put your ticket in, the first set opened and the second set remained closed. When you took your ticket (or, if you were exiting and your ticket was 'eaten'), the first set closed and the second opened. When you cleared the second set, it closed. These were a nightmare when crowds appeared at stations, e.g. in PM rush hours when 6-car trains let out crowds.
I thought I had heard somewhere that PATCO was going to replace the turnstiles and the ticket system soon. Apparently only ticket encoder is still working (at Lindenwold shop). Whether it will go to a stored value system, like BART and WMATA, or retain the station-specific type, I don't know.
I checked the dates in the PATCO history. The new turnstiles date to 1976. The prototype went into service at Ferry Ave in '75.
Are there any pics of the old equipment?
Page 25 of The Lindenwold Hi-Speed Line by Bill Vigrass (1990), published by and available from West Jersey Chapter NRHS, available by mail for $10 + $1.50 shipping.
It's a half-page photo of row of turnstiles in the Lindenwold station, complete with the news stand that used to be there.
What did you do to get stuck? Most PATCO riders have gotten stuck at one point or another and that's why the turnstyles are so easy to jump. I've had to jump on at least 3 non-consecutive occasions.
I was wondering what makes diamonds and siscors crossovers so expensive to maintain. All I know is that railroads are avoiding them like the plague. Now something like a double slip switch is clearly a maintainence nightmare, but diamonds and siscors just sit there.
Flanges going over them beat them to hell and they need a truck literally parked near many. Gack when there was a pair of them here in Voorheesville before ChickenSheetExpress (CSX) forced CP to lose them, there were crews around constantly tweaking them. The cuts through them are similar to the old rail gaps prior to welded rail and they do take a beating.
I'm going back to school for an internship on Sunday so I decided I should take one last SEPTA ride. My plan was to ride the BSS down to Patison and then back to Walnut-Locust. Well I rode down (see Transverse Cab post) and we pulled into the 4 track at Pattison. Well I passed through the train and sat down at railfan seat in the new lead car. Well we get to Oregon and the T/O opens up the door and askes me where I'm getting off. I ask "why" and he asked me again. I say Walnut-Locust and he says something like "I saw you ride down and you not suposted to Something Something. Something Something." and then he closed the door.
Why was he yelling at me and what was I doing wrong? Is there some SEPTA policy against joy-rides?
>>>....Something Something. Something Something." and then he closed the door.<<<
Could you please elaborate?
Peace,
ANDEE
It was too noisy. I didn't hear what he was exactly saying, but it was something about taking a joy ride.
A joy ride??? On a subway???? What's this world coming to?
Maybe the T/O caught Mike trying to hotwire the dash. :)
There could be some truth to that. I know of subway and/or streetcar operators that don't like railfans hanging around because they are afraid that if they get out of the driver's seat or the cab, the railfan will sit down at the controls in half a second and take of, or at least try to. It seems to be less of a concern in the subway though, my my best guess is that you can take away the reverser key, control key if applicable, and then lock the cab door.
-Robert King
Heh. I doubt Mike would try that ... now *I* on the other hand, when I was 15 or 16, took a live Broadway Local from 242 and ditched it at 191 and booked out the emergency exit to the street when I noted police cars chasing us under the el ... and no, I wasn't the one in the cab but I did go along for the ride. So yeah, it's a worthwhile fear and it HAS happened in the NYC subways. I wasn't the first and I wasn't the last. :)
YO---S E L K I R K --- T (m)/O - speaking about taking that train (Taking of Broadway 007) you fessed to being a part of -(WAS IT A HI-V !?) you remember the young 'bro about 16 or so that took the B division subway train using the
real operators' ID and handles, keys and ran the train SOLO for a few R/trips perfectly (the T/O 's was off that day I think - his knowledge of what kid did in this I cant remember - have to look up that artcile in my 36 book, 60 year span of transit newspaper articles archives I have here) - I believe it was in the mid 1990's - kid did a good job - big
kid- built like a brick shith---se - even his conductor didnt notice anything wrong - made all stops on the disc (or marker) - smoothly - like a bro...er, Pro - EXCEPT...when he blew a tripper on a (I think) -
timer signal and the train "dumped". C/R kept
calling the " T/O" on the radio to see what happened and why the train didnt move after trip "should have been reset''---the kid didnt want to go down to the tracks to reset it because .."it was scary down there" are he was afraid of the tunnels rats he heard about "as big as small dogs..." - Damn - Im going to look it up to find out how they got the train underway after the kid was caught. TA said he actually did a good job in his operational capacities and it was receptive to his stating he desired to be a motorman when he was old enough to be one. Do you remember this kid --I mean, he was carrying passengers for most of the real T/O's shift
till he blew that tripper - otherwise the kid would have completed the "shift" and went home and the real T/O would have gotten paid for the day!!!
AND - no one would have been the wiser--and also
EVEN IF HE DID reset the trip arm and continued on as usual - his C/R might have covered for him!
PS - enjoyed your response to the poster of
Some Septa Jerk yelled at me...re; your being a cab monkey etc. etc. and the feel of running the old cars two handed the old way! The new cars someday will have a MRC model train powerpack type throttle with a little "dimmer switch type" rehostat knob for
power and brake - --or maybe that little "pulse-brake" red button - ha ha ...???!!!
If you are going to use the term "Brick Shithouse" why would you write it "Shith..se"? Did someone make the word house dirty over the weekend?
The purloined train was a plain old redbird out of 242 - the oldies had been long gone by that time. And yeah, read about the kid who took the A train (literally) and hit a timer I *think* rounding the curve into either 161 or 175 and St Nick. I was rooting for him to get a gig with the TA when he got out of school but apparently he went and got himself into more serious trouble a year or two later pretty much ending that possibility for him ... apparently he did a full round trip and was on his way back to 207 when he forgot about that timer and hit it.
Yeah, those slider pots "disco-style" for running the trains these days are as foreign as a joystic operated car. It's nice to know what you're pulling on and with which hand. Now the redbirds are on their way out and as far as I know, they don't do two-fisted operation any longer. Well, there's still museums. :)
PATCO cabs are open. Just pull the curtain aside and hop into the seat! I wonder if PATCO has experienced "joyrides" as a result of that.
The T/O has a "key" that he removes from the console when he leaves the cab, rendering the controls useless. When the T/O leaves the cab at the end of a run, he removes his "key" and locks a plastic cover over the console.
I rode in cabs frequently when I was riding PATCO every day. It was amazing how often the cab was vacant when the car was otherwise SRO. I would also sit in a cab if I planned to take photographs from the train, because I'd open the T/O's window to avoid color distortion from the tinted glass. Alas, the windows are now kept locked, and the T/O unlocks it when he begins his trip.
I've seen PATCO operators chase people out of the cabs even when the train is otherwise SRO. When I've asked, they say it's at their discretion.
I've seen PATCO operators chase people out of the cabs even when the train is otherwise SRO.
I never did it in the first car.
or stealing the builders plate
Heh. Last I checked, a motorman wasn't required to write up missing decoupage, but they'd get MIGHTY honked if you were in the seat, closed up, got indication, released and gave the controller all she got. But ya never know.
It's funny, in the brief time I was with the TA, I was used to the crowd of kids up front, doing 3 stooges numbers to lean up against the cab door while others were pushed to the right of the window (at 19 I thought it was hysterical, I value it even more now at 50) and never even thought twice about "rail fans" being nuts (after all, I *got* MY fantasy with a passing and appointment to the TA) and it never occurred to me that one of my younger "cousins" would be a danger to the sacred church of the P-wire ... but now that you mention it, I can see where some crewsers would be nervous about foamers.
When I did C/R and T/0, if anyone was interested and wanted to talk, I'd tell them stories of "I took a train once, but they made me give it back" and all sorts of what I *thought* I knew at the time. A veritable fountain of insider for the windowkids. It was cool. Then again, in befriending them, questions and observations were getting in my way when I was trying to stop at the marker on a rough grade. It got VERy annoying when the kids didn't have a clue that I was actually playing numbers and trying to figure out where I'd stop, or if I was shooting the timers. Always kept my clip handy on the door if kids were interested and rarely had to get rude with only rare exceptions when the chatter distracted me from feeling my train. You REALLY had to "feel" your train when you were losing acceleration on an upgrade or running too fast on a downgrade. R1/9's coasted like a baby's butt and you really needed to pay attention, especially if you wanted to CHANGE your speed. :)
I guess it despends on the attitude of the monkey in the box. Some of us came into the gig as "buffs" and thus we're more disposed of saying, "here's the controller, and there's three notches, "crawl." "move" and "haul ash" ... and over here is the biggie wrench. I put it near the window and we can go, and if I pull it *HERE* then *YOU* go *THROUGH* the window ... don't screw with me, kid! Heh.
Then there's folks who can't count their balls and come up with the same number twice. We call them "poopers" ... both buffs and crews combined. Let's WHIZ on them!
Well, the T/O isthere to do a job. You're responsible for the safety of up to a couple of thousand people or more, so distractions can be deadly...
When you've been at it for a long while, you can LITERALLY "do it in your sleep" ... having done it, however briefly myself, your hands are full in the cab. Usual route, you shoot the timers, you know the flow of the steel in your face and know your speed for a certain section, and you can tell where you are and when to drop to coast, start yanking your wrench and when to "butterfly it" (at least, that was the way with the OLD cars) and where you would land. Dunno how it works with the newer cars.
But anyone who ran the pre-war cars here can tell ya, you really had to "MERGE" with them in a "vulcan mind meld" kinda thing ... you couldn't look at dials or screens to feel them out and make them do your bidding. You had to "FEEL" them in every way, shape and form. Like the steam locos of yore, the prewar cars each had their own feel and from that, if you learned to read them right, they'd be good to you if you were good to them. But many had PMS too. Heh.
That all said, the "prime directive of the (trumpets please) ... "ta" is that you "shall be in control of your train at all times" ... who gives a sheep about distractions. Somepeople just flip over the responisibilities and thus they herd all bicycles to the south motor. But as I've said before, the diversity of the "ta" brings about an "interesting life" ...
NOW! HEY! What the shuzzbah did Mr. Mike do to so pyth off the cab monkey? (and I can say that in my lily whiteness by proudly yelling that *I, whitebread* was a cab monkey too! (T/O?) woohoo! ;)
Anybody can have a bad day. Assuuming Mike didn't do anything wrong (you didn't, right Mike??) the TO was wrong, but it wasn't a capital offense.
Perhaps he didn't like your riding southbound, then riding northbound again. As far as I know, there is no rule against that, so the TO was out of line.
Back in the day, when PTC had a far less liberal transfer policy than SEPTA has now, I used to ride the bridge train over from Camden, get the Ridge Ave spur from the same platform where I got off the bridge train (PATCO's present 8th & Market platform), and ride to Girard. Girard has a northbound island platform and a southbound island platform. I'd go up to the mezzanine and creep from the northbound stairs to the southbound stairs while the cashier was occupied so I wouldn't be asked to pay another fare.
hey mike... what's happening??
you weren't foaming at the mouth, were you??
i think that is against septa rules...
OH MY GOD, YOU'RE BACK! DON'T EVER LEAVE US AGAIN! WELCOME HOME!
Hey, I'd love to drop by your place the next time you're in town. Are you planning any Railfan outings?
"Hey, I'd love to drop by your place the next time you're in town. Are you planning any Railfan outings?"
mike... i'm not sure when i'm going to be in town... what the hell are you talking about??...
i was over at the 25th anniversary busfest on wednesday and really enjoyed seeing all the railfans go by the mack bus that i was sitting in... i was really having a good time sitting in the bus, until some blabbermouth subtalker spotted me, and gave out my location...
let me know when you're in city, and we can go watch the greyhound buses come out of the port authority, or even better go for a ride on the newark subway...
you still didn't answer my question... were you foaming at the mouth at septa?
Answer, not much. Also, I do really need to ride the Oldark Rural Aboveway before they get rid of the PCCs.
the Oldark Rural Aboveway ???.... you've been talking to the american pig too much...
you haven't been on the pcc's recently?? let's do it...
i'd tell you to invite pigs along, but he would probably
have a seizure riding anything old...
How did you know I've been hanging with the Pig? We went on a big NYC trip on June 7th. Went to Nathans etc. He seemed to have no real problem with the old then.
"Oldark Rural Aboveway" sounds like his shtick...
hey i got a great idea... why don't we try to break the current record for riding the entire newark city subway line??... i think it would take a couple of days of careful planning, but i'm sure we could do it in under 12 minutes??.. it's got to be done soon, since the venerable cars will be gone and the new equipment will never be fast enough to break the old record...
Yeah, he yelled at you. HAD to be because HE was a jerk. You couldn't POSSIBLY have done something wrong, could you?
Of course not.
-Hank
I was just sitting there. I think he was mad that I was joyriding, but I have never heard any SEPTA policy against it.
...what was I doing wrong? Jersey Mike
You couldn't POSSIBLY have done something wrong, could you? Hank
Non sequitor.
How so? Based on previously witnessed actions and attitudes, I think it's fair to say we haven't heard the whole story. Or did you miss the thread on 'warranty repairs'?
-Hank
There is a definite attitude among too many SEPTA employees to those who show interest in the system. I've encountered it many times. If I ask an operator on my line why he's so close to his leader or why block so-and-so didn't show, more often than not they take offense and then wonder if you work for the company. An operator even asked me once why I paid a fare since company employees ride for free - as if that were my cover or something.
Does SEPTA harbor an environment which encourages employees to think "Goddamn, my supervisor (or manager) is out to nail me on any little thing, and this guy (the Subfan) is tattling on me to my supervisor."
Am I totally farfetched?
Does SEPTA harbor an environment which encourages employees to think "Goddamn, my supervisor (or manager) is out to nail me on any little thing, and this guy (the Subfan) is tattling on me to my supervisor."
Am I totally farfetched?
Yes and no, respectively.
When the P&W track was being rebuilt about 15 years ago, I'd go out at lunch time and take pictures (thermite bombs, etc). A couple times they stopped working, thinking I was a management spy. I convinced the foreman (the only English speaker) that I was just a railfan, and work continued.
It's my understanding that SEPTA frowns on photography on their property because the employees fear it is management spying.
I agree 100%, unfortunately. Too many SEPTA employees are too concerned that they're going to get caught doing something wrong, especially when they're doing something wrong. There are many good people working for SEPTA, and then there are those who truly do not care.
Of course, my worst situation with this type of thing was once when I was taking pictures at the Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden. A NJ Transit driver started to harangue me about what I was doing and how I couldn't do it (and this was on a public street - Broadway - not inside the Center), and even threatened to get police, and then threatened me. I crossed Broadway and took more pictures (a few of his bus, unbeknowst to him), and he left. What bothered me was his insinuation that someone couldn't possibly have this as a hobby and, even if one did, one would have to be absolutely crazy to do it in Camden (and he had a point there!).
"Of course, my worst situation with this type of thing was once when I was taking pictures at the Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden. A NJ Transit driver started to harangue me about what I was doing and how I couldn't do it (and this was on a public street - Broadway - not inside the Center), and even threatened to get police, and then threatened me. I crossed Broadway and took more pictures (a few of his bus, unbeknowst to him), and he left. What bothered me was his insinuation that someone couldn't possibly have this as a hobby and, even if one did, one would have to be absolutely crazy to do it in Camden (and he had a point there!)."
Other than a few bums sitting out in the little park, the transit center is quite safe.
The driver was out of line. You made a good decision. If you were really mad you could have made an attempt to look at his ID or badge number and reported him to supervision for physically threatening behavior. Or, depending on how confrontational you want to be, you could have told him (politely) to go take a hike or you'd call the cops yourself and follow up with his supervisor.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the center is 'safe'. I had opportunity to pass through there a few months ago and saw a number of shady characters at 4 in the afternoon on a weekday. I later checked with a friend at PATCO who asked me if I was crazy to pass through there, as there was substantial gang activity and petty theft which was going on despite the police presence (there is a PATCO police office right in the terminal) there. While I won't necessarily avoid it, I'm going to exercise a little more care in the future.
As to the bus operator, I try to take into account the 'rebels' out there who see their jobs as being as nasty and disrespectful to their customers as possible as their missions and I generally try to ignore them. While I felt like a confrontation at the time, I thought better of it and walked. As I said, not only do I have photos of his beloved bus, I have at least one of him with his badge clearly showing the number which I passed to a friend at NJ Transit not long after the incident.
>>> my worst situation with this type of thing was once when I was taking pictures at the Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden. A NJ Transit driver started to harangue me about what I was doing and how I couldn't do it (and this was on a public street - Broadway - not inside the Center), and even threatened to get police <<<
Your experience reminds me of a time I was in East Berlin in 1962. At that time there was quite a variety of buses and trams on the streets and trains (S-bahn) dating from the ‘20s to the late ‘30s. One I particularly remember was a tram engine with a trolley pole pulling a double decked passenger trailer. What had happened was when the city was divided, all the bus and tram rolling stock yards were in the Russian zone. The West German government bought all new buses for West Berlin, and East Berlin had a surplus of old equipment but no money to buy new equipment. Therefore the East Berlin transit system was a hodge-podge of whatever they could keep running with baling wire and chewing gum.
I really wanted to photograph those old buses and trams so badly, but I had been warned that the East German government considered photographing any transportation vehicles a breach of National security which could lead to a charge of espionage, and I kept seeing fellows in long leather trench coats sitting in parked cars, so I considered discretion the better part of valor, and did not take any pictures. When I next returned in 1978 all that old stock was long gone. Now I kick myself for not getting any pictures.
Tom
Being close to your leader or "jumping the stand" results in pi##ed
off patrons who miss their bus because it passes by their stop 1 to
2 minutes early. As a result, the follower of the jumper gets all
his load and eventually backs up the entire line. SEPTA has checkers at various spots who will write you up for being 1 minute early or worse! Another trick is to fake engine trouble and go OSS and wait for a replacement bus. A guy from Southern Depot in Philly did it for years (Earl Schiavo), and went on to be a union leader! Where is the justice?
Chuck Greene
Several years ago, a driver on my line (27) in the AM used to do whatever he could to cause a breakdown and therefore avoid having to complete the trip. I suspected this for a while, and then another driver confirmed this. Even if he couldn't break something, we became accustomed to either stopping on Ridge Ave at Wissahickon Loop or pulling into the Loop itself on a regular basis on this trip (SEPTA stations a repair truck there for 'quick fixes'). Many of us caught on and started taking the next earlier or later trip until the guy finally was reassigned (no, he was NOT fired - when new picks came up, he took a different route, which is apparently what he wanted all along!). Keep in mind that the 27 usually ran Volvo artics at the time and they were very easy to break!
The funny part of this is that this trip always ran 'hot', by at least 2 minutes (and it was right out of the depot - it made a deadhead up from Allegheny to Cathedral Rd where it turned and went into service). I guess he couldn't wait to get on the road and start breaking stuff?
what did he do to break them
He had a number of tricks. Two of the more juvenile included jamming the front doors (easy to do on a Volvo - they had a latch-type mechanism which pulled the doors closed which could be easily jimmied to keep the doors from fully closing) and removing the cap from the coolant filler, which was on the front dasher inside, and placing a wadded paper towel in it as the replacement cap. This was the only driver I've ever encountered who wanted a bus taken out of service due to each of the following (separate incidents) - an inoperable passenger stop request bell, burned-out green light signals at the push-out center door, holes in the 'accordion' (a common occurrence on the Volvos), and a loose passenger seat. Boy, do I miss this guy - NOT!
I don't understand that kind of moronic behavior. There are much better ways for an employee to get what he/she wants.
Thanks for the reply, Bob. You always fill me in with your knowledge
of SEPTA, a system I grew up with, but no longer use except for joyrides. That's what living does to you when you reside in Chester County!
Thanks again.
Chuck Greene
Boy, doesn't SEPTA sound like a wonderful place to work. Are labor relations there really that bad?
How are labor relations at NYCTA and CTA by comparison? I know NYCTA almost had a strike last year, but I don't recall the CTA having a strike threat in the eight years I've been living here. (Chicago's city government is traditionally very friendly to unions, sometimes to a fault.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
SEPTA is one of those organizations in which you'll find some of the most helpful and nicest people who, unfortunately, have to work side by side with the miscreants and miserable folks who really don't want to work at all. I know from being told that SEPTA has several lines on which troublemakers tend to be banished (and I happen to use one of them on a daily basis!). The shame of this is when you find the operators who truly want to be there and do their jobs, but the riders are accustomed to surly louts (so the riders treat the nice ones in a surly fashion from the get-go).
You have to wonder about some of the drivers, though. I had a trip home from a meeting after work in late May in which I had to transfer (I normally have a one-seat ride, but I was coming from a different place this day). The Schuylkill Expressway was experiencing one of its not infrequent jams and the first bus I took, which I boarded at 5:45, issued me a transfer good until 7 PM. The trip to the transfer point, normally scheduled for about 25 minutes, took 65, putting me at the transfer point at 6:50. My connecting bus showed at 6:55 (another route using the Expressway which was also substantially delayed). The operator took my transfer, then called me back to his position and told me the transfer was no good. I asked him to explain what was wrong with it.
He told me it was only good until 7. I asked him what time he had - 6:56. I then asked why it was no good when it wasn't 7 yet. He noted that I must have stopped over to have a transfer cut so close, so he was going to deny my use of it. I asked him what line was punched on the transfer (9). I then asked about the Expressway delay he just experienced and what time he was supposed to be at the transfer point (45 minutes before he arrived). I then asked him to put two and two together. He refused, but decided to 'give me a break this time'. I told him I didn't want a break and he should return the transfer to me, which I would use on his follower, but I would report this to SEPTA the next day. He wouldn't return the transfer but advised that he was giving me a break. I remained on the trip. When I left the bus, 5 minutes later, he once again noted that he wouldn't accept the transfer in the future. I told him fine, but you're still going to get the complaint call.
I relayed this to my normal AM operator (a true gem). He advised that the guy had a 'stiff one' for riders of a certain persuasion and that he had a long record of run-ins of this type. I reported him. I haven't seen him since but I'd be willing to bet he's still on the line.
I have found that at least amongst the trolley operators there are a bunch of operators who are railfriendly. Of course there are some who are not, but I have had good experiences there.
I got some weird looks taking pictures of the Trackless Trolleys however. I don't think they see too many railfans so pictures do seem suspicious.
All in all, SEPTA's operators seem to be as happy as anywhere else from what I've seen. I think they have worse things to worry about than pictures going through some parts of the city.
Yo Mikee, here's an idea. Maybe he found you annoying. Did you ask him any railfan questions? Did you try to show him how much you know about his job?
I think that was uncalled for.
"Is there some SEPTA policy against joy-rides?"
Most likely the policy that they use to keep the homeless out could also be used to stop people from joy ridding.
On Thursday October 27, 1994 I managed to ride a southbound No. 6 train past the last stop which was Brooklyn Bridge and rode on the City Hall loop and got to see the old no longer used City Hall station for the first time in my life. The station still looked reasonably clean and most importantly the T/O did not yell at me. BTW October 27, 1994 was the 90th anniversary of the opening of the first subway in New York City if you don't count Beach subway opened in 1870.
BMTJeff
>>>>My plan was to ride the BSS down to Patison and then back to Walnut-Locust. Well I rode down (see
Transverse Cab post) and we pulled into the 4 track at Pattison. Well I passed through the train and sat
down at railfan seat in the new lead car. Well we get to Oregon and the T/O opens up the door and
askes me where I'm getting off. I ask "why" and he asked me again. I say Walnut-Locust and he says
something like "I saw you ride down and you not suposted to Something Something. Something
Something." and then he closed the door.
Why was he yelling at me and what was I doing wrong?<<<
OK, I'll be the devil's advocate...
Maybe he thinks you should pay again once the train reaches the end of the line and starts the return run. I don't think the MTA has that policy on subways (homeless know abt that) , but you can't ride back and forth on the buses without paying a fare each way.
That aside, a lot of T/Os and media, for that matter, characterize train enthusiasts as wackos and 'foamers'. Just a fact of life you have to deal with.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Maybe he thinks you should pay again once the train reaches the end of the line and starts the return run. I don't think the MTA has that policy on subways (homeless know abt that) , but you can't ride back and forth on the buses without paying a fare each way.
That depends on the bus line. On the M60, for instance, nobody's going to stop you from riding from 106th and Broadway back to 106th and Broadway via LGA, since there's no single last stop at the airport end.
A lot of routes with broad loops have that feature. People going towards the loop want to get off after people wanting to go in the opposite direction get on. There is no way to make sure people riding when the bus enters the loop are gone by the time it finishes it.
Such routes are the M60 (as mentioned), the M35 on Ward's Island, the M22 in Battery Park City and the B36 near Sea Gate.
Do any bus routes have loops at both ends? I suppose any reasonably awake driver would notice after two or three round trips that one passenger has been on all along.
Even where there is a fixed "end of the line," if you have a valid reason to stay on (e.g., you missed your stop, you boarded in the wrong direction, etc.), the driver may allow you to stay on. (I don't know what the official policy is on this matter.)
OK, I'll be the devil's advocate...
Can I play you? Where does the quarter go?
I found a way today that a Transverse cab might be good for railfans. Today on my BSS ride the T/O was driving the train with the storm door open (something safe for the passengers w/ a Transverse cab door closed). At times he would stand in front of the open door and operate the controler w/ his right hand. It was really cool looking.
Shoulda got a photo...
I've seen a T/O on an R-44 A train partially prop open the front storm door. Judging by the crowd level in the front car, I think it was for climatory reasons.
This evening I saw on the relay at Parkchester a trainset of R142A's set up :
7416 - 7425.
Past set ups were always "1 - 0" (example - 7290-7300 etc).
What happened here? Assuming that 7401-7410 will be a setup then what happens with 7411-7415?
Hey, that raises a question and shows that I haven't been
paying attention to these critical details: The 142s are
A cars and B (blind) cars. What is the relationship to the
numbering sequence, or is there none? It can't be even/odd,
can it, because there should be 3 B cars to every 2 A cars?
A cars are multiples of 5, and multiples of 5 + 1. B cars are all other cars.
I haven't been following actual train setups, but I thought the R142 and R142A's are linked in 5-car sets. Thus, any 5-car set can be attached to another whether or not the sets are in numerical order.
7416-25?
Holy Cow! It was transferred from East 180th Street to Westchester Yard today. Who would know that set would go into service right away?
-Stef
! does this mean the breakdowns will also be set up "out of sequence"?
I was on R-142 6601-6604 with 63??-63?? on Thursday.
Expect more of this out of sequence stuff, since there is no guarantee that the cars in sequence will be service ready.
The "cats eye" signals (two small signal lights) only seem to be used for tunnel river crossings. There don't seem to be any for the Manhattan bridge.
When was the last time anyone saw one of these set at red?
Also according to a T/O I spoke to today the speed on the Manhattan bridge south side is the same as the north side, so forget about speeding across the bridge!
They are called "Train Order Signals". When white the mean proceed but when red, the operator must call control center before proceeding or he'll be tripped.
I thought they meant that you had to had to reach out the window grab the little scrap of paper hung next to the tracks at the next interlocking (or from the guy standing on the platform with the big 'Y' shaped stick.)
That's on the so-called "real" railroads. On the NYCT system,
a homeless guy hands you a used condom.
That's why the TA issues gloves.
Forget gloves, how about tetanus shots?
Dan
Tetanus shots will do you NO GOOD!!!
Probably wouldn't hurt, what with all the used condoms and homeless men. Also, a TB innoculation is in order. Plus a colonic irrigation.
Dan
4 ply gloves all the protection needed
There are "cats eyes" at the Wyckoff Av station on the M line so it's available not only at river crossings. The only time that I saw this signal at red was also at Wyckoff. The track past that point was out of service due to a GO.
Train Order signals when put in now, are more for restricting traffic outside of interlockings, from what I understand. One point where it is desirable to do so for safety reasons [ie: flooding] would be at the entrances to river tunnels.
Even with "100%" radio coverage, I think they all still come with a phone and a lighted number to call when red is displayed. If it were me, I'm not sure that I would enjoy holding that dirty phone up to my ear. Maybe if I put the homless guys condom _over_ the reciever....
Yeah watch the cat's eye at Grand Central, I'm expecting those Steinway tubes to give way any day now. :-0
I saw one Friday afternoon.
(rummaging through my memory)
Must have been at 86th on the 4/5, SB express platform.
Well while railfanning today I did something I haven't thought of since I started riding the subways. I brought along my old handheld scanner (Realistic brand) and listened to the subway frequencies. I actually can recieve a few from my place but I'd like to see what signals I could get. The reception is very poor both above ground and underground. The T/O's calling in to the repeater from their handhelds often suffer from breaking up and bad static. Heard no major problems, just some trains recieving orders on the J and 7 lines. I've heard the TA radios and the signals don't seem that clear either. I know I got the right freqs, right from "Tracks of the Subway" book. How does the NYCT radio system work? Do they have antennas in tunnels? I hear there are "dead spots" in river tunnels which do warrent the need for the train order signals.
It's not my scanner, I get the PD and fire companies just fine. Sounds like the TA could use a better radio system.
the bands are not federal bands, due to teackage and metals and concrete, its poor reception, I think the portables that are issued are only 2-3 watt. I hear 'em fine from my house, but i have a nice antenna setup
the bands are not federal bands, due to trackage and metals and concrete, its poor reception, I think the portables that are issued are only 2-3 watt. I hear 'em fine from my house, but i have a nice antenna setup
Glad somebody reads that back page [grin]!
Signals in the tunnels are carried by intentionally "leaky" coaxial cable called Radiax. I don't know the TA's radio system in-depth, but I can tell you that one of the biggest problems seems to be multiple transmitters on different parts of the system. For example, say on the BMT channel, if one conversation is happening at East New York between a train and tower and another conversation is taking place at Coney Island, both base stations will be transmitting at the same time and the result is a big mess.
I'm sure there are many receiver sites in the tunnels and along rights-of-way, and those feeds are "voted" so the dispatchers receive the trains fairly clearly--but I don't know what they do for the other half of the conversation. I guess that in the open, they rely on the portables to capture the strongest base station, assuming it is carrying the message they need to hear. Likely underground the Radiax is segmented and base station signals from base X only travel between certain limits. If anybody knows the exact system in use, please e-mail me privately; I'd like to get a better handle on what's going on down there these days.
FM signals work by what's called "capture effect," meaning the strongest signal will capture the receiver. When both signals are weak, then it gets to be real fun.
In any event, things will soon change. The frequencies the TA uses are from amongst a list of 97 frequencies allocated by the FCC for railway use. The transit cops are also using this band, believe it or not! In the not-too-distant future, the FCC will require new equipment on new frequencies. Your current scanner won't be able to receive these messages (even if they're not digitally-encrypted--which they certainly won't be) because the IFs will be very narrow and the modulation may be a digital stream (APCO-25). FDNY had some fun experiences with these radios recently, and they're now back to analogue, albeit on the new bands. You might soon be seeing frequencies like 485.08375!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
did anybody say "trunking" isnt that a good solution for the MTA radio problem? if we have multiple transmissions happening at one time. NYPD for example does not tolerate this, if 2 or more units transmit at the same time, central gets very angry.
I'm personally NOT a fan of trunked radio systems for public service systems where lives are on the line. However, I don't think trunked radio would be a bad thing for NYC Transit to look into. Maybe part of the DOITT system?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
rumor has it that the NYPD transit dispatchers failed the tests to dispatch the precints, so they sent them to transit as a punishment
thats funny, working in the auxilliary and buisying myself with monitoring, those dispatchers have nerves of steel from a lot of bullshit that cops present radio-wise sometimes.
Yup the multiple transmissions were quite a problem. For instance the 7 line uses the BMT channel, and you'll often hear ENY interfering with Corona. The FM ability to block out weaker signals is I guess what the squelch knob is for. I wonder why FM radios In the 88-108 don't have this feature.
Digital technology will be better (but not for scanner monitors).
Nassau county police uses the 400 band and that's pretty clear. LI Bus uses a trunked system (800MHz) that my newer scanner did recieve (it unfortunately broke before my old one!).
Generally I don't monitor the scanner as much I used to, only in storms and stuff when the PD and FD crackle with activity.
[. I wonder why FM radios In the 88-108 don't have this feature. ]
That's the job for FCC :-)
Arti
Forgot the rules eh? The NYCT radio, you may monitor but not disclose what you heard. The NYPD radio, you may not monitor. Not sure about the FDNY.
Isn't "technology by edict" elite? "We don't care if we've got a security hole large enough to impress Bill Gates, though SHALT NOT HEAR IT!" ... is it that I'm suffering a case of subduction, smoking quack, or is there soemthing seriously wrong in that entire argument?
Inquiring mimes knead to no.
Smoking quack, definitely. I'd imagine the feathers give off a nasty smell. Something like heating oil, maybe? Could this be the answer to the Steinway tubes oil leak?
Fuzzy Logic™ is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corp.
Dan
Amtrak has been trying really hard as of late to hold onto its passengers. A few days ago at the Providence RI station, passengers detrained to find the doors from the platform to the station to be padlocked shut. They had to pull a fire alarm and have the firefighters cut the lock off the door. I'll have to give Amtrak credit for "effort", but I think that this counts as a failure.
/*Amtrak has been trying really hard as of late to hold onto its passengers. A few days ago at the Providence RI station, passengers detrained to find the doors from the platform to the station to be padlocked shut. They had to pull a fire alarm and have the firefighters cut the lock off the door. I'll have to give Amtrak credit for "effort", but I think that this counts as a failure. */
HAHAHA!!!!!
I guess Amtrak's getting *real* desperate if they're starting to lock passengers into stations/trains......
Hmmm, maybe the NEC's increased ridership is because they're not letting passengers off at the destinations???
Separation Anxiety, Amtrak?
Where did you hear this?
East Rail News.
Thanks.
there is a coney island message board that was having a heated discussion about the destruction of the thunderbolt a couple of months ago... i can't seem to find their website, as i wanted to see what people wrote about the death of the owner of the carousel... anyone know it??
Is this the one?
Coney Island BB
yes... thanks gary... most of the posts were about the mermaid parade, but there were a few about the carousell... the carousell was a big part of his life...
A subtalker said that he did not see any work being done on the express tracks to necessitate their closure - I recently saw a work train heading into the 53rd st. tunnel, pulling a flatcar loaded with red 5"diameter iron pipe. That pipe is being hung on the tunnel wall for the entire length of the tunnel. I also found out from a T/O who I met at a recent meeting of the NY chapter of the Electric Railroaders Association that there is still work being done in connecting the signals of the Queens Blvd. lines to the new Master Tower in Queesborough Plaza. I also have seen evidence that more pandrol clips are being installed on the express tracks. You have to look hard for some of these things, because if you don't, you will miss them altogether. There will be more construction taking place, what with ADA compliance modifications needed at all stations, so get ready for them.
They are building a ventilation facility of some sort, near the emergency exit near the renwick ruins on roosevelt island, it is preventing me from desending into the emergency exit and walking the tunnel.
I never disputed that there is work being done on the 53rd tunnel. But the constant closing of the express tracks between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza has nothing to do with track work. It's done for a variety of other reasons, which I still don't agree with.
For one thing, let's not forget that part of the express track is not visible from bypassing locals.
Arti
Correct, part of the express track is not visible. And that's the whole point. The TA can claim track work when there really is none going on, and who can really say that there is or isn't anything going on?
No one believes me, ask a TA employee, he/she will tell you that there is a new ventilation system being installe din the 53st tunnel,
I will try to find out the real deal at the next meeting of the Electric Railroaders Association. Somebody has to have the inside scoop on what goes on, so the research will begin.
As someone ("zman179"?) posted earlier in the week, signal work is happening on the Queens Boulevard Express, necessitating the diversion of service to the local tracks. As someone else ("Arti"?) posted, the express tracks through much of the area where the work is taking place are under a different street from the local tracks, so it's quite understandable that someone riding a local train would not see the work happening on the express tracks.
David
I believe that they are installing pandrol clips on the rails, replacing the old fish plates and other types of hardware. Just speculation, but I will get the real inside information when I can.
The reason the F train runs local from Roosevelt to Manhattan, is that passengers boarding after Roosevelt can no longer take an R train to Queens Plaza, and change trains. So instead of forcing passengers to take an R without the option of changing trains at QP, the city just runs both trains local after Roosevelt.
But anyone dumb enought to think that track work between Northern and Steinway(the section of express track not visible) is taking place all these months is nuts.
I do know they are installing new fire lines (dry standpipes) for the FDNY. I am sure our resident FDNY poster can elaborate . I was at Queens Plaza this am-- they are still doing signal works at the Plaza. I have seen many bagged signals and bagged homeballs and punches withint eh confines of the platform.
That sounds like a worthy project...
What is the last place, in the New York City transit system, would you want to get stuck on a train in?
For me, that would be the Steinway (7) river tubes. They look the dirtiest, have the least amount of lighting, and even signal lights are spaced apart the most more than anywhere else in the system.
Any of my home stations (90th/Elmhurst, Northern Blvd. or 74th/Bway) on my way home. Especially after school, primary on my agenda is getting home and being so close yet so far would piss the hell out of me.
Dan
I hate getting caught at Coney Island on any train. Either at the station for some reason or waiting on an incoming train for one of the two in the platform to come out, etc. I want to connect to another line but can't. Irregular spacing between trains doesn't help much either.
On the A train causeway over Jamaica Bay. At night. In the winter. Very long walk, very cold, wet punishment for a mis-step.
Did they clean up that oil leak?
Derricks are being installed as I type. We DRILL for that sucker! :)
Can't--no room in the cramped, crowded Steinway tunnels.
I was in the tunnel yesterday and the leak has not been fixed. Indeed, it's spreading. The eastern end of Grand Central now smells like heating oil. I don't know, I think it's rather pleasant--sort of like gasoline, only more noxious. It certainly smells better then the urine that permeates a lot of the system.
Dan
The smell is so bad, and the ride through those aging Steinway tubes so bad I may just avoid them entirely. During the week you have many options. You can take an E or F to Roosevelt and get the 7 train. Or the N to the 7 and Queensboro plaza. Of course then good luck getting a place to stand. All bets are off I'm taking the E or F to Forest Hills plus a Q65A to Q44/20AB to Flushing!
Also I may be moving to a new place soon right near the LIRR Locust Valley station. Then I'll be taking the E train and the LIRR home. Goodbye stinky 7 train (Flushing is equally as stinky)!
The main reason why you smell the smell on the 7 Flushing Line is because a couple of sewage lines run through 42nd St./ Times Square terminal. Those lines are not working at optimum performance and may produce some leaks. That is where the R33/36 (along with a mix of R26-29 equipment acquire their scent.
Another cause might be that the windows are open while the train is in transit. when the 7 sees daylight at the elevated rail line, it's a more comfort ride.
Also I may be moving to a new place soon right near the LIRR Locust Valley station.
Isn't that a very upscale area?
Well there is a single apt there that someone is moving out of because they live with a partner and need a bigger place. So they probably want to move in to my place, and I'll move in to there's.
Parts of Locust Valley are upscale but the place is in a middle income residential area. The town has alot more than Sea Cliff, and as I said the RR station is close by.
I'd rather depend on LIRR than LI Bus. People who actually work take the LIRR so I finally have some decent transportation to a job.
There is an LIRR tower in Locust Valley isn't there? I believe that east of that is just one track to Oyster Bay. I was by the LIRR station in Locust Valley and it sure looks nicer and more heavily used than Sea Cliff.
"There is an LIRR tower in Locust Valley isn't there? I believe that east of that is just one track to Oyster Bay"
The tower you mentioned is now a Nassau County Police "booth". Even the LIRR incandescent fixtures remain.
It is indeed single track past Locust Valley. Locust Valley was once the original northern terminal before being extended to Oyster Bay. That was a long time ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also in a picture I got of Locust Valley station it appears the ties are concrete.
Nope it still stinks down there. IN fact the oil smell has worked it's way up into the Grand Central subway concourse, and even up into part of Grand Central terminal itself. I'm starting to think of the redbirds on the 7 as "oilbirds" since they smell of heating oil.
An oil leak near the Central??? Swell!!!
Don't let me be walking anywhere near the lower levels on the day that there's an explosion on the mains near the leak.
It's not flammable. Not that kind anyway.
I'd certainly wouldn't want to be stuck in any of the underwater tunnels, as well as the Washington Heights Mine Tube (for those of you who don't know what this is, it's the very deep tube that the 1/9 passes thru bet. 157th and 200th sts.)
Well I do think river tunnels are the worst places to be stuck in, however 53rd, 60th, and 63rd go under Roosvelt Island (63rd has a station there) so you're closer to an emergency exit.
Just south of the Pulaski Skyway in NJ on Route 1 there is an old Pesnnsylvania RR freight line ROW - now in what appears to be Norfolk Southern hands. That line used to be under catenary - no longer. What is the deal - is it more cost effective to use diesels rather than electrics? Are we that short of power in the Northeast, or are there savings to be had with less catenary to maintain? The line is still active, as I saw a train of containers9őng taken from Kearny southwards.
Conrail chose to discontinue electric service to avoid the expense of separate service facilities for electric equipment.
that is the Passaic & Harsimus branch of the old prr. it was the freight by-pass for newark nj. it went from wavely yards in newark (lane intlocking) to harsimus cove in jersey city(on the hudson). it also connected to the river line at cp waldo.
A couple of questions:
Where is/was cp Waldo?
That line crosses the Passaic from Newark into Kearney west of the Pallisaide. How did it get to the Hudson River at Harsimus Cove? Via the cut that PATH uses? Bergen Tunnel? Some other way?
cp wadlo is near the path trains enter the tunnel. the tracks run along side the path track, and then down the middle of what now is columbus dr. there was passenger service to exchange place(ferrys)at one time.
I always wondered about that line, so thanks for the information. You have any maps showing where the line goes to? I also wondered about the Black River and Western Railroad in New Jersey. Is that still running, or is it abandoned?
The Black River and Western is very much alive... here's their web site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks! Many thanks!
Since Exchange Place is just south of Harsimus(sp?)Cove, I assume that the freight and passenger trains followed the same tracks almost to the waterfront. I've known about the PRR terminal at Exchange Place, but the freight connection is new to me. Thanks. BTW, the freight tracks in the PATH cut are still in use and, until the River Line is abandoned to make way for the HBLR in Weehauken, appear to hook into the River Line (unless the connection near the PATH Portal has been changed to hook into something else).
there is a new junction with the river line west jornal sqaure. they are also building new overpasses along rt 1-9 to bypass the grade crossing there.
I didn't mean to suggest that the whole line is being abandoned, just the piece south of the Weehauken tunnel.
I know there are the Tunnel lights (the ones with the colors underground). There is the Position lights, the Pedestal signals(I call those the domino signals. I just wanted to know what are those signals at Jamaica that hang overhead on Track 6 where the Far Rock Trains stop, and they are also on the trackway on Track 8. They display the Rule 287 slow clear, Rule 290, Restricting and of course 292 stop. The color of the indication is white as well. Also a note is these signals have no capability of showing clear.
They only show Slow clear, Restricting, Approach and stop. I call these Cat eyes, of the Railroad that is. The subway has theirs anyways
Email me with this or post
They are Pennsylvania Railroad Position Light Dwarf Signals. They can also display SLOW APPROACH. They recently removed 4 of these at CP-HATCH. The dwarfs you mention have just been mounted above the platform fos visibility.
I am soon beginning to apply for a Transportation job. I am going to apply for Long island Railroad, Metro North Railroad, PATH and Take all Civil Service tests that apply. I hope to be either an Engineer or a Motorman. So how do I apply for PATH?
I believe their offices are located at the Journal Square station.The building is right upstairs from the station.Check their website for more info on an exact location.
The address is One PATH Plaza, Jersey City NJ (don't remember the zip code)
Have a look here: http://www.panynj.gov/hrd/hrdframe.HTM. According to the web site, they’re not looking for motormen at the moment, but there is an opening for a helicopter mechanic :-)
John
Into town today...rode the ferry over to do a bit of SIR[T]...some more nostalgic trips on some [SNIFF]Redbirds..The conductor on the trip down on NJT/MN was saying how he and his partner did [are you ready??]over $1700 in ticket sales on that particular train on Thursday....over 400 tickets sold on ONE train! [This is the first train, BTW, on which you can buy an RTX ticket going into Hoboken from NY points...]* He looked a bit exhausted still...
*I give MN/NJT about another year before they start installing TVMs at the MN points.....
Well we've all been hearing about the outrageous, accross the board SETPA fare hikes, but there is ONE thing they seemingly forgot to hike. The PATCO-SEPTA round trip transfers purchaseable in New Jersey stations have stayed the same at $1.80. That's right, while some chumps people are paying $2 or $1.30 per ride, us New Jersites are paying a cool 90 cents. I'm going to be laughing all the way to the bank. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Oh mercy.
Maybe you should buy a bunch and scalp them at 8th & Market? Don't brag too much, Mike - the SEPTA Board will hear you.
I couldn't figure this out with tokens either. I thought there would be a run on them before the fare hike. I certainly picked up a few extra bags at the old rate. On my daily jaunt past the 15th St sales booth, I saw no unusually long lines of folks trying to do just this. ?
Keep in mind that the other 'shoe' that will drop here is the second part of the fare changes, i.e. suburban zone rationalization on the transit side, which is supposed to happen in the fall. I wouldn't be surprised to see the PATCO joint fare nose up then.
Or maybe that's why that Broad St motorman was giving you grief...?
If anyone frequently rides the 7AV-Broadway express, is the 2 often much more crowded than the 3 because of its long Bronx run, or is the 3 more crowded than the 2 because of only using 9 cars. Do you ever pass up one train and take the other because you know it will be less crowded?
I would imagine that the same effect may occur on the Lexington Ave line southbound when the 5 is terminating at Bowling Green (or also northbound) and one may want to take the 5 over the 4 due to less people. I would imagine it also occurs on the A (Lefferts trains significantly less crowded?) or on the 6AV express (D more crowded than Q?). Or possibly the N will be more crowded than the R when it is running local? Is there ever a significant change in crowding like this?
During the rush hours, most of those trains that you mentioned are equally crowded at some points during their runs. The 2 and 3's seem more crowded in their northern portions due to the heavy ridership of the UpperWest Side. The Brooklyn runs seem more crowded in the AM rush, esp. at Atlantic where the trains pick up huge loads from the LIRR to go into Lower Manhattan Then of course, the 2 has it's Bronx portion, and THAT is crowded well past E180 St. Even when there was Broadway Express/ Local service, the "N" and "R" crowds were sizeable at each end, although in the PM rush, the Uptown platforms to Queens were ALWAYS PACKED even though the trains ran on about 2 minute headways on a good day!!. ALL '4" and "5" trains are a nightmare at rush hr, even if there are a few "put ins" from Bowling Green, especially the portion between Grand Central and the financial district. Not only are there the Bronx crowds, but then there is the added CRUSH from Metro North riders and #7 transferees to go Downtown!! The "A" train crowds esp. during the AM rush are the only erratic ones. Trains from either Lefferts or the Rockaways are not THAT crowded from the outlying branches UNTIL East New York. BUT, they tend to arrive in packs (ie. you wait for one over 6 min., then 3 come in succession). So, of course, the first one is packed, and the other 2 are standing room only until about Jay St when the "F" Culver passengers pack on to go to the WTC area!! Some of the load is eased up if a lingering "C" will crawl through! Oh, and the "D" and "Q" trains seem equally packed too. Those are my observations. Tony
I find that the 2 redbirds run FASTER! than the 3 train
regardless of the day/time/weather... it never fails!
The 2 has always made the 7ave alpine THAT much greater.
Yes, I intentionally pass up the 3 trains to wait for
a 2 redbird at 96th Street (ditto for return trip).
As far as crowding, the 2 seems to take that listing,
.....maybe it's due to statement 1 made above...
about the quickness of the 2 train-- over the 3.
Funny, it also seems to me the 9s are faster than 1s.
Was there ever talk of the TA linking its system (I would imagine the 53st tube) to the LIRR LIC branch after the LIRR GCT connection becomes built (knock wood). Even now, the LIC branch seems like a waste to me, and seems like it could get more riders with subway service.
There have been different proposals for the LIC branch, including for a subway extension, for light rail and for express bus road-railers.
Aside from community opposition, the line is now an important freight operation, so this puts another obstacle to non-railroad passenger use, as FRA would require freight to be completely segregated from any subway or light rail-type operation.
ROW width would be the key there. The Red line on WMATA runs paralell to the B&O/MARTA tracks in Montgomery County, with a fence seperating the two in order to fulfill the FRA requirements. If the ROW was wide enough along the Montauk branch for at least three tracks with a fence seperation, then both subway and LIRR fright service could be maintained.
r-o-w width isn't the only issue. Industries are on both sides of the tracks and a grade crossing with subway tracks to reach customers is out of the question.
If the ROW was wide enough, it is possible that the subway tracks could be "buried" into an open cut like the Brighton line in certain areas to get around the problems you mentioned (similar to what they did to eliminate the SIRT grade crossings in the New Dorp area back in 1965). That would cost more than simiply recapturing the Lower Montaulk line, but it would allow freight access from both sides of the remaining LIRR tracks.
In the wake of new legeslation, the FRA no longer requires physical seperation between freight and light rail. It only requires that tracks used for both not be used for both at the same time.
Nor does the FRA require freight and subway separation, AFAIK. I believe that it just requires the subway to comply with FRA railroad requirements, which PATH does to this day. Of course, no subway operator is going to be willing to incur the expense unless it is stuck with it for historical reasons or is offered some really huge financial incentive by a really desperate freight customer.
What's the big deal over FRA compliance? What would be required to bring NYCT up to spec?
Dan
I don't know all the details. One item I have heard is that each train has to be inspected after each run. I'm sure there is a lot more to it. I do know that PATH has been crying about it and made a serious effort to remove itself from the national railroad system not too long ago so that they could get out from under the FRA regs. Someone opposed the move, and it failed.
Once GCT access is established, there will be 6 tunnel tracks feeding four mainline tracks, the exact opposite of what is happening everywhere else in the world. I always thought that the LIC line would become connected to the Penn Station tubes once ESA was completed, as a cheap -n- easy way to fix the above problem. The way I have drawn the connections, it will provide NYP with access to 6 tracks to Jamaica, and leave GCT with access to 4 (too difficult and stupid to connect 63st to the Lower Montauk).
That maybe so,but that was the plan the TA wanted to use back in the 90's.
Naturally.
How much of this 6 tunnel capacity is used up by traffic headed for the Hell Gate Bridge?
I presume you've seen the Amtrak schedule! 2 TPH max!
And thanks, you've helped me remember two other sources of traffic: Sunnyside yard and the Port Washington branch. Granted, they do suck up a fair amount of tunnel space.
But the whole idea of ESA (in addition to it's name) is to allow for more service to Manhattan in general. The three peak-direction mainline tracks are already filled almost to capacity during the rush, add two more tunnels and maybe you can add about 5 TPH, anything else reduces the # of trains going into NYP.
Plus, I guarantee there will be a need of at least one more track once ESA gets activated. There is no way in hell both Grand Central and Penn Station's reverse-rush moves (both deadhead and revenue) can be handled by one track. Remember, Grand Central will have no layup yard for midday trains, all the trains to be used for the rush hour would have to come from the east.
Tuesday afternoon I received a call from my younger daughter that her car was out of the body shop (she hit a deer on Father's Day), so that evening I headed for Maryland to reclaim my van, which she had been driving while her car was being repaired. I boarded NJT at Little Silver, headed for Newark, at 1920; only four cars open, and it was standing room only. What the heck?!?! But the mystery was solved when the train virtually emptied out at Red Bank - everyone was going to the fireworks.
I boarded the Acela Regional train (175) that originated in Boston; it left Newark right on schedule. Quite full, but by Philly a lot of folks had gotten off. We were stopped nearly fifteen minutes at 30th Street, until the Acela Express arrived and departed across the platform from us; it left on schedule, and we followed it out of the station. Remembering my ride of two weeks earlier, I wished I was on it, but wasn't sure I could justify the extra money. (Later events would show me that I should have paid the higher fare.) They were doing some track work near Perryville so we slowed to a crawl for a few minutes, which made us ten minutes late into Washington, arriving at 0015 instead of 0005 on Wednesday morning. (The Acela Express, I learned, had arrived "on the money" at 2343.) Next stop: the Metro, for the ride to Glenmont. But wait... this isn't Friday night, this is Tuesday, and it doesn't matter that it's the night before a major holiday; the last train left Union Station at 2359. So I call my daughter and proceed outside to wait (the police are sweeping through the station herding everyone out - no waiting in the waiting room at that hour). She arrives about 0115 and we're back at her home in Layhill at 0200. Had I chosen to take a cab, the fare would have come close to making up the difference between the regular Amtrak ticket and the Acela Express - $50 for the cab, $75 premium on the ticket price - so if I have to make that run again during the week I'll take the faster, earlier-arriving Express (assuming I can't get an earlier train to DC).
On the afternoon of the 4th, under threatening skies, we went over to the National Capital Trolley Museum, less than three miles down the road from her townhouse. TTC 4603 was the car of the day; funny that on Independence Day they would be running a car that spent its revenue career in another country instead of a DC car. Didn't get any pictures, as the clouds were pretty nasty (and indeed it started to rain while we were there). As a belated Father's Day gift, and general thank-you for coming to her rescue a couple of times recently, my daughter presented me with a membership in the museum, so now I don't have enough time to devote to TWO museums, instead of just lacking enough time for one :-) I did take advantage of my member's discount to pick up a couple of books in the gift shop, though, including WMATA at 25 and Frederick Kramer's new volume Third Avenue Railway: A Cityscape of Manhattan and The Bronx.
The drive back was uneventful; the yards were quiet in Baltimore and I didn't see a train the rest of the trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why does the C terminate at 168 St. and the B terminate at 145 St? Why not have both terminate at 168 St?
Because the B is (now) the Concourse service. If it terminated at 168 during off-hours it would confuse riders as to the line's northern destination.
It's been about three years or so since that terminal switch, and I always wondered what the reason behind it was. Does anyone have any insights?
TA wanted to keep the R32s shopped at 207.
TA wanted to keep the R68s/R68As stored/shopped at Concourse.
Which pissed of alot of people, I live in the Bedford Park area and alot of people were mad because people in our area had the C local for 8th Avenue Service, which was there for YEARS and then we get the B, its the same line except that its local on 6th avenue. I was dissappointed, I like the C line.
Your funny! The B and C are practically the same lines above Central Park West. If anyone was piss, they should be piss because only rush hour express services is provided, not whether a C or B serves their station. heheheeehee.
N Bwy Line
Who said they had to go to Central Park West? People like the A/B C/D arrangement because wherever you were, there was a way to get to either 8th Avenue or 6 Avenue directly.
I often wondered this. Probably to avoid confusion with people who want to take the B to the Bronx. At least when the B ends at 145th, they can x-fer to the D directly, as opposed to having backtrack at 168th.
Wouldn't it make sense to add a 4th track on the lower level at 145th to avoid the occasional logjam into this station?
Are the old cars now in work service (ex: R15, R17, R21/22) properly maintained? Or are they simply run into the ground, or maybe "fixed" with parts from cannibalized units?
On a related note, does anyone know how many of these units are operational under their own power?
There is one R-21 and at least 19 R-22s in operational order used on the Revenue Collectors. There are a handful of operational R-22s that are used to haul various other things around the system, I think they have five digit numbers.
These cars have been heavily modified, ie: straps removed, doors now manually operated, some have skirts, bars on windows, etc.
No work car under R-21 is still powered.
>>>No work car under R-21 is still powered.
I wouldn't say one way or the other.
When I was working as a Handswitchman at 38th Street Yard a few years back, certain rider cars would have shoes installed upon departure. When the first shoe hit the 3rd rail, the car body lights would come on and on some rider cars, I'd hear a compressor kick in.
Now whether these cars still have motors is the question.
I've never known a rider car to have an air compressor. The last miscellaneous work train cars to have air compressors were the 2 R12 wreck/derailment cars. Also when I first started out, there was the original self propelled CWR train, made up of GE R22s keeping their original numbers. I think the rinse and detergent R12s had some working 2CYs as well. The heat and lighting is demanded by the track foreman on the work train manifest, thus requiring third rail shoes. Of course the lighting is bad since the mail light reversers aren't automatic and few dare to operate them anymore. Those bulbs are generally purple on one end and dark on the other. Perfect for those night jobs.
As far as the R-12/15/17/21 and 22 work cars go, my guess is that the R-33 single unit Flushing cars will replace them. That's my guess.
And as far as the revenue cars go, I hear their days are numbered. Supposedly, armored trucks will replace them. It would have been nice if decent Redbirds with working A/C was converted for that purpose, but not from what I hear.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not Supposedly, they are. Kings Hwy D is being picked up by armored car.
This may have been said here and it probably has, but I just feel the urge to ask -
What percentage of the R-142/A fleet is now in service?
How many, if any, Redbirds do you expect to be in service at this time next year?
Thanks.
I'm not sure, but as an overall estimate I'd say 30% of the R142 and As are on the property, and at least 70-75% of these are in service. So far about 4 or 5 redbirds have been scrapped so I'd say by March or April 2002 that the redbirds and R142s will be split almost evenly and by end of 2002 R142s will have the proportional position the redbirds have now.
I'd say that all the Redbirds will be gone by this time next year............
Yes guys, I saw something today on the way to the beach that we wont be seeing until at least 2004!!! I was riding the "D" to the beach this afternoon. While on the bridge, I looked on the South tracks, and I saw a 4-car test train of R-68's running parallel with us!! AND, the train was marked "N". Gee, we won't be seeing something lie that for another few years--train service on both sides of the MannyB! Actually, that sight brought back a little of the past for me too--riding on the "D" and seeing an "N" on the other tracks (usually going a bit faster!!) However, what threw me is that the "N" was made up of R-68's, not R-32's or 46's like in the good old days of "N" and "D" brooklyn express service!. Hopefully one day, "N" service WILL be back on the bridge!!
Do you mean that or are you just saying that to get Fred fired up?
:-)
John
I recently rode the LIRR on my way back home to Virginia. I saw one of the newer doubl decker cars in service at Ronkonkoma Station and noticed it had a date stamped to the bottom corner of the car...What is that date stand for? I also noticed 2 huge ugly lights on top of the commuter cars...What's the deal on those..I haven't rode the LIRR since my college days of the late 80's
The huge lights are required by the FRA on any RR that has crossings.
i dont think its a bad idea! why don't they do that?
"Train Dude" has explained this before with respect to the prospect of replacing roll signs on the R-68s with digital signs: it's too expensive to be worth doing.
David
They did it on the R-44/46 class. Why not the 68s? It would certainly look nicer.
Dan
On the R-44 and R-46 classes, the cars were being gut-rehabilitated anyway, something that is no longer done since the cars are constantly being upgraded. A determination was made that the cost of replacing Mylar signs with digital ones on other car classes outweighed the benefits. As to whether the digital signs are better-looking than the Mylar ones, that's a matter of opinion.
David
The R-44 and 46 were already wired for digital signage, like the D.C. METRO cars. The R-62 and 68 would have to start from scratch.
The R-44 and R-46 already had wiring in place for motorized signs, like the DC Metro cars (and that wiring probably would have been replaced anyway, as it was several years old). Is that what was meant?
David
Asthetically, the digital signs suck. Operationally, they are very useful, especially on lines which have multiple terminals depending on the time (the #5 and the B come to mind). They insure proper signage at all times.
"They insure proper signage at all times."
When they are working properly :-) I often see half a train going one place while the other half's going someplace else (according to the digital signs). Sometimes, I'll even see a different reading on one car!
David
With the electronic signs on the R44/46 equipment, it is possible to have four different destination readings on one train (one for every two cars). And I've seen this on too many occasions to count.
I've never seen a digital roll sign on the R62 equipment but the regular ones work out pretty well.
The electronical destination device, which are LCD or liquid-crystal display screens on the R44/46 trains ensure the proper destination for the train, although a few of them are in need of repair.
T/A has been striving to keep them all "in line" and accurate. (They need a computer to change the LCD screens)
One of the problems with the LCD signs are lazy conductors. Once, riding on a Queens-bound F with the signs set for a southbound F to Coney Island, I made the mistake of pointing this out to the conductor. He gruffly told me to mind my own business. I pity the people who got on that train by mistake.
Here is a list of all the oddities I saw today:
G to Court Square - At 71/Continental, northbound. At least the front sign said not in service.
R to 95st Brooklyn - Northbound 71/Continental. No wonder everyone got off and waited for the E.
A Fulton st Local - Southbound. On top of that, the car I was in had no PA. After Hoyt, many people were annoyed.
A to 207st Manhattan - Oh, so that's where this southbound A at Rockaway Blvd is going.
F Queens Local - As it switched to the express heading north out of Roosevelt. That sign is only to be used when it is running 100% local. Some conductors (or maybe only one) change it where applicable, ie: it says local until roosevelt, express until continental, and local afterward.
In all these cases, every sign on the train was wrong. At least it's better than the 5 to 149st Grand Concourse I got on at Brooklyn Bridge southbound.
R-142(A), too.
My first or second time riding an R-142A on the 6, I rode it down to Brooklyn Bridge and through the loop. On the way back up to 42nd, I looked into the second car and noticed that all the signs had gotten stuck at SB Spring (the strip maps had Spring blinking and BB lit, and "THIS IS / SPRING ST" was flashing on the signs). I checked as I exited, and the exterior signs still gave a destination of Brooklyn Bridge -- in that car only.
I hate to correct a collegue BUT
When the R62/62A and R68/68A class cars go out for rehabs, they will be coming back with digital side signs (whether they are LCD or LED is unknown) and AC Traction, this is to unify to cars looks. Also the R46s will be going out for a second rehab with some cosmetic upgrades themselves! This all around the R-160/R-160A Order time!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
This is news to me and is unusual for several reasons:
1. It represents a sea change in the way NYCT overhauls cars. Incremental overhauls (SMS) have been the order of the day for the past ten years or so. The GOH program was designed to address years of deferred maintenance as well as to modernize the cars. SMS, under which components are replaced based on life cycle, supplanted GOH in the 1990s.
2. SMS comes out of the operating budget, while GOH came out of the capital budget. The MTA capital program through 2004 contains no funds for a GOH-type program.
3. As previously stated, digital signs are expensive and the prevailing opinion at NYCT was that their cost outweighed their benefits.
4. The R-62A, R-68, and R-68A classes just got or are now getting new E-Cam controllers that work with traditional DC motors. As far as I am aware, they are not compatible with AC propulsion and would have to be replaced, an expensive and time-consuming proposition.
5. The R-160 cars are supposed to be ordered soon. If comprehensive overhauls are planned for earlier classes around the time the R-160s are ordered, the design work better start VERY soon.
If anyone at Car Equipment would care to enlighten us...
David
E-Cam controllers? What do they look like, the standard controller for Westinghouse R-62A/68/68A? Because I've peeked inside the T/O cab and have seen no change in equipment.
The E-Cam equipment is under the car. The stuff up top was not changed.
David
R-142 6521-6525 was delivered last night. The diseal past me by at Wall Street (4),(5) at 10:20PM Friday night.
To this point, how many R142(A)s have been delivered and how many are in service?
Check out this map. If I'm reading it correctly, it's saying that this was the plan for the Metro in Montreal before construction started. They could of had a huge system. Can anyone tell me if this plan ever existed, or is this just a fantasy map, based on hopes from a long time ago?
The folks in Montréal are just as capable of dreaming as we are. This was an official plan put forth for the subway at the time the first line was constructed, but eventually someone had a good dose of reality and the grandiose plans were shelved in favor of something more affordable. I don't know enough about the Montréal system to know if provisions were constructed for any of the unbuilt lines... perhaps someone else has some information on that subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems to me that as a result of economic decline, Montreal has more of everything than a city it's size in the U.S. would have, including a big time transit system. All in all a very nice place, if you can speak French (I can't).
They are building an extension to one line. Jodi and I were there recently, and not speaking French is not a problem. It WILL get you a few arrogant stares, but nothing along the blantant snubbing we were told to expect. When greeted in French, all we had to do was say 'English, Please' and they had no problem.
-Hank
That seems to be right that they have more stuff than what you would typically find in a city of their size. They have only about 3.1 million people I believe. However, dispite their population size, their Metro transports 270 million a year, according to the APTA. Knowing this I think it's very resonable for them to have a much bigger system than the 64km they currently have.
You don't really need to know French to enjoy Montreal. I spoke English there most of the time and everyone understood me, I didn't even do the "English, please" thing, and everyone was still nice to me. I did pick up some French, and used it for one or two word responses, and to get around.
Amtrak is trying to compete with the airlines in the New York-Washington corridor, but most of the flyers in this corridor are bound for northern Virginia. Therefore, I propose a wild service.
Two Acela Regional runs should leave New York City in the AM peak period, making stops at Newark, Metropark, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Alexandria, Franconia-Springfield, and Woodbridge. It should thake no more than 3.5 hours to do this, even with the 25 minute engine swap, but plans and reality are two different things.
Comments?
Amtrak is trying to compete with the airlines in the New York-Washington corridor, but most of the flyers in this corridor are bound for northern Virginia. Therefore, I propose a wild service.
Two Acela Regional runs should leave New York City in the AM peak period, making stops at Newark, Metropark, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Alexandria, Franconia-Springfield, and Woodbridge. It should thake no more than 3.5 hours to do this, even with the 25 minute engine swap, but plans and reality are two different things.
These runs would be reversed in the evening.
Comments?
Amtrak is trying to compete with the airlines in the New York-Washington corridor, but most of the flyers in this corridor are bound for northern Virginia.
Are they? My experience says that they're bound for DC proper, Capitol Hill in particular. What studies do you base your statement on?
New York City, Newark, Metropark, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Alexandria, Franconia-Springfield, and Woodbridge ... no more than 3.5 hours to do this, even with the 25 minute engine swap...
Well, the Regional runs already take close to that to DC... the fastest non-Express, non-Metroliner trains (183 and 93) are carded at 3:10 and the fastest train designated as a Regional (171) cards at 3:17. Alexandria has Metro service anyway (King Street station serves both Metro and Amtrak) so it's only Woodbridge you're missing, and service via Metro from Union Station to King Street is under 30 minutes during the week, even with the transfer at Gallery Place - Chinatown.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Excuse me But why do you have to kick me off? Haven't I learned my lesson? And I know that if I screw anything up I will Punch myself in the head.
Let Me get this straight Im a person that doesn't like things being taken away and if it is I get REALLY mad And I feel like hurting someone. So Don't take any privilages away it makes me mad.
I'm going to charge money for pardons. You can pay me a mere FIVE DOLLARS (US currency only) to have the ban removed.
What are you going to use the money for?
It costs me money to run the chat room.
I Will send you money when Im ready.
And until then, no chat for you.
In fact I will look for a chat room better than yours.
You can come back to mine, I've just decided to eliminate the no response rule.
Hey to keep your chat free why not you try Paypal.
That's how you would pay me, but since I've given you a free commutation, you can come back for free.
PLEASE MIND THE ADS, THEY WILL BE GONE VERY SOON!!!
Would it be possible (does such technology excist) to replace regular staircases with escalators?
Arti
>>> Would it be possible (does such technology excist) to replace regular staircases with escalators? <<<
That depends upon the stairway. It is doubtful that an escalator could use the framework of the staircase, but it might be able to fit in the same space when the staircase is removed. Unfortunately an escalator alone would not meet ADA requirements, so it is doubtful that any public agency would want to expend the funds to replace stairs with escalators.
Tom
[Unfortunately an escalator alone would not meet ADA requirements, ]
Slipped my mind.
Arti
Way back when DC's Metro opened in 1976, an inclanator(SP?) was installed at one of the stations as a temporary measure to comply with the ADA pending completion of elevator work. Another station remained closed for months until the ADA work was done.
I have finally posted pictures I took of the Acela Express at South Station from my trip to Boston a month ago.
Click here for the pictures
Nice pictures.
Do you have a parrot named "Quake?"
Quake is acutally named because at one point I was using that computer as a Quake server, so I could play multi-user games with my friends. But, there's no parrots named Quake yet! :)
Shawn.
The reason I ask is because the files in the parent directory included photos of a young boy and a parrot (or parakeet).
Mind you, I'm not identifying you as that boy - I was just saying what I saw...
A serious collection of junk :) There should have been an index.html there anyway. Anyway none if those images were important at all, pictures of a friend, a bird and a screen shot of god knows what.
Shawn.
OK. That bird was cool (one day I'll have a parakeet).
Very nice ... I saved one for my personal use ... thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
When does it get so bad that you can't park your car on the street without it getting broken into? It's a damn shame, Itell you!!!!!!!! These stuipid stinkin' m----- f------ broke my driver side glass,and took nothing!!!!! I found a fire crackker on my seat,so I guess it may have been some kids. BOY,are they lucky i walk with GOD or they would be pushin' daisys!!!!! OK guys dont mind me,IM venting my anger.I used to say to people dont put BED-STY down,they'er having a hard enough time tring to survive.NOW, F--- THEM! They can all burn for all i care. Thanks for hearing me out.
The car thieves are unfortunately using your car for practice for the day when Giuliani is gone. I had a friend that lived in Park Slope up until a few years ago. He actually left his car door unlocked at night so thieves wouldn't have to break his window or otherwise damage his car to find out that he had nothing of value in it. The bad old days may be on their way back.....
i just returned from a few spots to see if i could get the glass replaced. $200 for a new glass!!!!!!!!!THIS BITES!!!!!! THATS it. It's time to go. Igive up,NEW YORK!!! Had enough of you beatting up on me. Had enough of you taxing me to death,your rude ass people with your nasty savage ways,the dirty smelly stinky streets fucked up subway service. I HAD ENOUGH!!! GOOD BYE and believe me when i say this,I won't miss it at all.
PS - best of luck - I found out 32 years ago there IS life beyond New york and I have had civilized, comfortable times ever since and much much cheaper costs of living as a bonus...New York to me is like the Amusement Park - nice to visit all day - but would you like to live in the Amusement Park day after day near the roller coaster?? Many of we
subtalkers are EX New Yorkers - like "Selkirk" and
Karl M, etc.
Well I do like VISITING NYC, but I would never want to live there. The safer parts like upper east side, Bayside, Little Neck are super expensive. It's also too crowded. Yeah joyriding subways for a few times a week is OK but taking them all the time could ruin it( there is too much of a good thing).
But there's alot of good places in NYC, more than bad. Manhattan all in all is a wonderful borough, Brooklyn has the one of a kind Coney Island where beaches and trains are side by side, Queens (OK I'm blank here), Bronx has lots of parks and rolling hills.
Staten Island is a place you'd never think is part of NYC. Plus it's got culture would won't find in suburbs. Lots of chinese stuff on the lower East Side and around 8th ave in Brooklyn. For the more "trendy" westernized Chinese stuff there's always Flushing. If you dont mind dealing with the filfth, rudeness and depressing sights.
Most residential neighborhoods are reasonably safe. If you really think the only safe places in NYC are Bayside and the Upper East Side, then maybe you need to examine the way you deal with people.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with not living in NYC. To each his/her own.
Well I do believe those are the safest areas. Plenty of areas in NYC are relatively safe, most are except for the areas of upper Manhattan, South Bronx, and the Brownsville area.
Also "safe" depends on how you get around. If you own a car, then it may not be so safe, not just for thieves but because of the congestion and traffic. Also the it expensive to live anywhere in NYC, at least in a decent neighborhood. Even historically cheaper parts of Manhattan like the lower East Side are getting pricey.
New York, in general is not cheap to live in - that's true.
From all your posts concerning NY and its properties and characteristics, I have come to a conclusion that you know little about what the city is really like.
I don't own a car anymore myself. The last time I did and a window was broken, I found out that I could have added glass coverage to my collision insurance, for a very nominal cost.
For anyone who still has collision coverage on their vehicles, I would strongly recommend adding glass coverage. Even after paying for it for a few years, it could easily still pay for itself with one incident.
For anyone who still has collision coverage on their vehicles, I would strongly recommend adding glass coverage. Even after paying for it for a few years, it could easily still pay for itself with one incident.
Where my cars are registered (North Carolina), glass coverage is part of comprehensive (fire, theft, acts of G-d, etc.). Collision only covers damage that I do to the car through my own stupidity or carelessness. I've almost always carried zero-deductible comprehensive coverage but I've only carried collision on cars that still retain at least 35% of their new value (below that point it's usually not worth the cost, even with a $500 deductible).
Comprehensive just paid off for me too - my younger daughter hit a deer and did $3400 worth of damage to her new Taurus SEL. That's about eight years' worth of comprehensive premiums on my entire family fleet (four cars).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I should have said "Collision/Comprehensive" insurance.
OUCH--what hapened te DEER !! (only kidding)
Hope your daughter wasnt hurt if ony shook up. I live in the northeast part of my city (Phila.) near the woods (real woods - not just what city kids call a collection of 6 or so trees clustered together!!)
and see deer in my neighborhood (late at night)
frequently - on the streets near the woods - you wont find that in Manhattan or Bronx !!
Just shook up, fortunately... there wasn't enough of the deer left for even one venisonburger though. The car was still driveable, although minus one headlight and the a/c condenser. She was doing 65 on I-95 in Laurel, Maryland, heading home to Layhill after spending Father's Day weekend with us in New Jersey. It was her second major accident in less than a month, though... she totalled her '93 Sable in Silver Spring in May when someone stopped just over the crest of a hill to make an illegal left turn (she hit the end of the line of cars backed up behind him). That one banged her and her housemate up slightly; of course, the driver who caused it drove away.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"That's about eight years' worth of comprehensive premiums on my entire family fleet (four cars)."
So that's why my rates just went up ? :)
(Comprehensive just paid off for me too)
Try living in Brooklyn. $1,600 for a three year old Saturn with one ticket for each driver LIFETIME, no accidents EVER, no claims EVER, no driving to work, 7,500 miles per year, and a $1,000 deductible on comprehensive/theft. That's the cheapest out there.
When someone busted my window and stole my airbags, it cost $1,600, and I got $600 from Tri-State. They'll probably raise my rate by $600.
At least the fraudsters make a living.
That's from Tri-State? Impressive -- since Tri-State really is cheap (in comparison). (Unfortunately I don't qualify since I haven't had New York insurance for the past three years.)
NYC is not the place to own a car. That's exactly why it puzzles me to see so many new cars, especially in the Flushing area. Flushing has the 7 train, plus dozens of bus lines it puzzles me why so many people there own cars. I guess it's a "status" thing.
It hurts to talk.
>>> I don't own a car anymore myself <<<
Since I live in a very automobile dependent area of the country, Southern California, it is hard for me to imagine how living without a car, even in New York wouldn't be a hardship. For instance, if you shop at a supermarket how do you bring the groceries home? When I lived in Manhattan it was pretty simple because we lived in a tenement above a grocery store. My mother would give the grocer a list on her way to work, and pay for the groceries and pick them up on the way home. The butcher shop was about a block away and would also be an every other day stop. Fresh fruit and vegetables were available at a shop right near the El station. Until telephones became available at the end of WWII the grocery was also our telephone link to the outside world. If we got a phone call, the grocer would step outside to the sidewalk and call my mother's name.
My father lived in Flushing on Lawrence Street (a name no longer on the maps). There almost everything was delivered by the stores my stepmother shopped at. Coming up from the subway at Main Street, there was a row of shops along Roosevelt Avenue where she would pick out meat, groceries, fresh fruit and dairy products (to supplement the daily milk delivery), and they would be delivered about a half hour later. The grocery bill at the various shops would be paid weekly. The dry cleaning was also handled by pick up and delivery at the apartment door. Any shopping at department stores was also delivered.
This was fifty years ago, and each of the delivery people got between a dime and quarter tip. Life has changed a lot since then, but I was wondering if the support services to allow one to live without a car comfortably still exist at reasonable prices.
My father got his first (post war) car in 1950. (He had given up his beloved Chandler during the depression) He used it to drive to his work in Brooklyn each day, and it certainly changed the way the family spent their weekends. It was no longer such a project to visit friends who had a farm in rural Jersey, or go to Jones Beach, but he never used it to go into the City.
I suppose if one is earning very good money in Manhattan it is possible to get along without a car, using taxis to go where the subway doesn't and renting a car when one wants to go out of town for a weekend, but it is still hard for me to conceive of living in one of the outer boroughs without an automobile.
Tom
PLEASE NOTE : no offence intended here but ...................!!!
You would be still saying the same thing about SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA if the PE system & the LARY system was still on line
left alone & still running !!! ( not this new crap they call here a rail transit system ) @ a joke !!! LOL !!
>>> You would be still saying the same thing about SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA if the PE system & the LARY system was still on line left alone & still running <<<
Yes, of course I would because the nearest supermarket is more than a mile away, and the nearest store of any kind is ˝ mile away. No matter how good the public transportation system is, and if it were better I would consider commuting to work on it, an automobile is still a great convenience.
Tom
sure thats because how the southern california area is layed out --------wide & too far apart !!!
There's NO way that you could live in LA without wheels. I oughta know.
As far as not having a car in the outer boroughs, IMO you need a car if you live anywhere in Staten Island, City Island, or certain isolated areas such as Southeastern Queens, Gerritsen Beach (Bklyn), and the Rockaways.
as i said before this was possible when the PE & LARY systems were in operation !! lol !!
"There's NO way that you could live in LA without wheels. I oughta know."
I lived in LA for years without a car of my own. I took RTD to work, to Disneyland, to the beach, to East LA to Compton, to Norwalk, everywhere. It wasn't great - but I'm proof you're wrong.
I lived in LA for years without a car of my own. I took RTD to work, to Disneyland, to the beach, to East LA to Compton, to Norwalk, everywhere. It wasn't great - but I'm proof you're wrong.
Compton? Did you have a death wish?
Compton? Did you have a death wish?
After going to East LA...
No. But close. I had a meeting with the Compton School District.
After walking about 10 blocks or so, I passed Compton High School. I asked a group of muscular, football-jacket adorned guys where the school district office was. They competed among themselves to see who could be more polite and courteous to me and gave me very good directions. I had to keep myself from laughing, because it was both delightful and funny.
There are decent and kind people everywhere, aren't there?
(There are decent and kind people everywhere, aren't there?)
Have you been to West Texas?
My wife has. Does that count? :0)
My family always used one of those foot/laundy carts to get stuff home from the A&P on Fridays. It was only a four block walk, so the cart worked fine and using a car would have been ridiculous.
My favorite car-in-New York story is one of my teachers at Styuvesant, back when it was located off First Ave. between 15th and 16th Streets. He lived in the building directly across the street in Styuvesant Town, but was "borrowing" wood from the wood shop apparently to do some kind of paneling job on his apartment.
Driving to school was no problem if he left early enough -- just go about 50 yards across First Ave. and put the wood in the car. Getting back, because of the street layout around Stuyveant Park, which cuts off 16th St. and is bisected by Second Ave., required either driving down to 14th and Second and then back up to 18th and First and around one of the Stuy Town loops or going up to Third Ave. and then over to 18th St. and then back down, turning a 50-yard walk home into a 1/2 to 3/4 mile trip...if you could find a parking space near the apartment building (I'm assuming the wood was dropped off at the building by double-parking and not hauled back from some other location where there was open parking).
Hey, I'm 29, I have no license and I don't even know how to drive a car.
This was fifty years ago, and each of the delivery people got between a dime and quarter tip. Life has changed a lot since then, but I was wondering if the support services to allow one to live without a car comfortably still exist at reasonable prices.
Many supermarkets and other stores still provide local delivery service in Manhattan. No doubt this is facilitated by the unlimited supply of (usually illegal) immigrant labor willing to work for peanuts. It's perfectly possible to live without a car, just as your family did 50 years ago.
In almost all suburbs, and probably in parts of the outer boroughs too, the situation is completely different; life without a car is very hard indeed.
Another thing to consider is, if the store is around the corner, one has no need to buy a week's supply.
Arti
>>> if the store is around the corner, one has no need to buy a week's supply. <<<
I was under the impression that the neighborhood mom & pop grocer, butcher shop, bakery, and green grocer had pretty much gone the way of the nickel subway ride, and therefore most shopping had to be done at bigger supermarkets which because of the need to draw a larger clientele could not be around the corner for everyone.
Tom
There are still some left, I have a bucher on my street. I was more thinking of "delis." At the same time the supermarkets, at least in Manhattan are almost around the corner (I have 2.)
Arti
"and therefore most shopping had to be done at bigger supermarkets"
Hello?
There are no *big* supermarkets in NYC (Manhattan), there is no building that big, why the parking lot in front of the Dan's supermarket (in Bismarck, ND) is surely bigger in area than a whole Manhattan Block. You could easlily put three or four football feilds *inside* of that store. Nope.... There is NO PLACE in Manhattan that could possibly have a store as big as these big super supermarkets.
Little Jam Packed Grocery stores are what you will find in NYC, and in Manhattan, I am sure that they will still deliver.
Elias
Little Jam Packed Grocery stores are what you will find in NYC, and in Manhattan, I am sure that they will still deliver.
Some Manhattan residents with cars actually drive out to the suburbs to do their food shopping. Manhattan supermarkets generally are expensive, poorly stocked and frequently unclean.
Especially if the store is right by the subway station, so it's automatically on the way home for everyone who gets off there.
>>> Many supermarkets and other stores still provide local delivery service in Manhattan. No doubt this is facilitated by the unlimited supply of (usually illegal) immigrant labor willing to work for peanuts. <<<
Fifty years ago, these jobs were done by teenagers (there were no McDonald's for them to work at) who worked for tips only (no one cared about a minimum wage requirement). This type of job was a step up from going around with a shoeshine box and shining shoes for a dime, which was usually done by pre-teens. The day of the newsboy hawking "Extras" on the street was already over, with most newspapers being sold at newsstands.
Tom
Fifty years ago, these jobs were done by teenagers (there were no McDonald's for them to work at) who worked for tips only (no one cared about a minimum wage requirement). This type of job was a step up from going around with a shoeshine box and shining shoes for a dime, which was usually done by pre-teens. The day of the newsboy hawking "Extras" on the street was already over, with most newspapers being sold at newsstands.
It's said to be quite difficult for NYC teens to find jobs. Many of the entry-level jobs taken by teens in most places are instead taken by immigrants in NYC.
And I live in Nassau county where there's no subways and I don't have a car. Hopefully I will be moving soon, a place has come available in Locust Valley. It sounds isolated, but it's not really. I'll be a 5 minute walk from the train station, a block away from the laundry and a 10 minute walk from the supermarket. A pushcart makes it somewhat easier.
Only thing is no LI Bus routes go up there, but I'd rather take the train anyway.
My father lived in Flushing on Lawrence Street (a name no longer on the maps).
Actually, for the record, Lawrence St. still exists south of Booth Memorial, down to the Horace Harding. Of course, I inferred from your post that you lived farther north (towards Northern Blvd.); up that way Lawrence St. was indeed wiped out for College Point Blvd.
I suppose if one is earning very good money in Manhattan it is possible to get along without a car, using taxis to go where the subway doesn't and renting a car when one wants to go out of town for a weekend, but it is still hard for me to conceive of living in one of the outer boroughs without an automobile.
It is true that living without a car in the subway-less far reaches of the outer boroughs would be very difficult (as I learned, to my extreme frustration, while growing up in remote Queens Village).
However, it is actually just as easy to live like a real New Yorker without a car in *certain* places in the outer boroughs as it is in Manhattan. If the place is well-served by the subway, and has a good shopping district (and maybe an all-night diner or two), then that is all you need. And it is not necessary to be making anywhere near "very good money".
For example, where I live, in Woodhaven, I have the J and the A trains to rely on for transportation. As far as shopping is concerned, I can get almost anything I want (groceries, clothes, etc.) on Jamaica Ave. from the Brooklyn line to Woodhaven Blvd. Also, the great shopping district of Jamaica is just a short train ride away (thanks to the 1988 extension of the J train to Parsons/Archer).
A few other neighborhoods spring to mind where one would not need a car, and could live comfortably without needing to make a lot of money.
On the Queens/Brooklyn border:
Ozone Park/Cityline - the A train is right there; great shopping along Liberty Ave.
Ridgwood - the M train is there; great shopping on Myrtle Ave.
Queens:
Astoria - has both N and R sevice (soon the V as well); great shopping along Steinway.
Bronx:
The Hub - both East Side and West Side IRTs are there; good shopping at 3rd Ave./149th St.
Manhattan (outside upscale areas):
Washington Heights - around 181st St., there are plenty of good stores; served by the A and 1 trains.
Again, this is just for regular folks without much money. I have not even mentioned some expensive areas where one does not need a car, such as Park Slope or Forest Hills/Kew Gardens.
Finally, as far as "getting out of town" is concerned, I personally think that that is extremely overrated. But, if you absolutely *must* leave town for some reason, all of the places I mentioned are within reasonable distance of a connection to the world outside NYC:
Woodhaven, Ozone Park/Cityline, and Ridgewood are all just a short bus ride away from the Jamaica LIRR station; Astoria is but a short ride from the Woodside LIRR station; Washington Heights has the bus terminal; and The Hub is very near the Melrose MetroNorth station.
So, living without a car is very possible (and very desirable) in many locations within the City. It is not a just a luxury to be enjoyed by well-to-do Manhattanites.
Ferdinand Cesarano
>>> So, living without a car is very possible (and very desirable) in many locations within the City. It is not a just a luxury to be enjoyed by well-to-do Manhattanites. <<<
Ferdinand;
Your take on the subject is interesting. Have you ever owned an auto? I still remember how much our life changed after my father bought his 1950 Ford. I also remember shortly after I got married I thought of buying a second car for my wife, but when I looked at the costs of ownership, I believed we could get by with one car and a taxi budget for whenever one of us wanted to go somewhere and the car was not available. It did not work. I would usually have the car, and even though I had explained to the wife that taxi fares were budgeted, she would sit at home rather than taking a taxi to visit her sister, or go to the store. There was something about putting out the cash that inhibited her from going. I soon bought a second car for her, and although it had low usage, it made her a lot happier, and gave her the feeling that she could go wherever she wanted whenever she wanted.
I think car ownership for New Yorkers is similar. It might not be necessary, but it gives one the feeling of independence.
Tom
Tom,
I never owned a car of my own free will. By that I mean that the only time I ever (briefly) owned a car was when I was co-owner along with my ex-wife for a few years. Even then, we had it only for her use, and I gladly let her keep it after we broke up.
But, other than that, I have never owned a car. I am 35 and have never depended on a car for my primary means of transportation. I have a licence, of course; I have a Class 4 (or whatever it is called now), the licence that enables me to drive a livery cab.
I have lived in the Woodhaven area for the past 13 years, and the pleasure of having the subway right near me still hasn't worn off. I grew up in Queens Village, out in The Land The Subway Forgot. QV was great for playing baseball in the street, but the fact that it was a bus ride away from the subway began to frustrate me as I got older.
My first places on my own were in Fresh Meadows and Auburndale, also a bus ride away from the nearest subway, and with very little available within walking distance.
I never had a car in any of those locations, even when it could arguably have been a help. I just couldn't imagine paying all that money for upkeep, insurance, gas, and whatnot. Of course, it definitely was a little difficult to get around at times. I was always an avid bike rider (still am), so that helped me get places. I would take buses during the day, and use my bike at night. It was a bit of a hassle, but I am convinced that car ownership would have been even a bigger hassle.
Then, when I got to the Woodhaven area, I said, "Ah, I am home!" I had two reliable subway lines within walking distance, as well as several stores, a couple of diners, other kinds of restaurants, and plenty of 24-hour groceries.
So, now, the prospect of owning a car seems downright laughable. It would just be a tremendous expense, with virtually no upside.
I frequently hear the concept of "independence" mentioned in connection with a car, but I don't understand that. I mean, what car is maintenence-free? When you own a car, you are always "waiting for the other shoe to drop", waiting for something to go wrong. And then it could run you hundreds. Too much stress for me.
I have much more independence with my bike and the subways/rails. Anything within about a 10-to-15 mile radius is a one-hour bike ride or less. For trips longer than that, I can bring my bike on the subway, the LIRR, and the PATH. So, there is almost no place I can't go in a reasonable amount of time, just about whenever I want to. When I had to go to Yonkers to go to a specific store; when I had to go to Manhassat to visit my mother in the hospital; when I go to visit friends of mine in Farmingdale, LI and Union City, NJ; I do all of these using the subways/rails and my bike.
Anyway, there you have it.
Happily car-free,
Ferdinand
Don't forget to mention the almost inevitable game of searching for a spot. Here in Forest Hills, so many people base their lives around trying to find a spot, which is close to impossible. In some ways, a car can take away your freedom too.
I feel your pain. My dad had an old '86 LTD Crown Vic stolen about five years ago, and there are crooks now trying to work on the family Camry (95). Plus the added bonus of nearly getting killed several times while driving.
I wouldn't put this whole city down just yet, though. One has to remember the old saying "a few bad apples can spoil the crop." In this case, quite a few.
I can also relate.
Back in '94, my car was stolen right in front of my house. It was later found up in Yonkers with the rims removed.
This morning, one of my neighbors found two of his car wheels on cement blocks. The two tires facing the street were stolen during the night.
As for things returning to the way they were in the bad old days, we should all PRAY that doesn't happen.
Now don't go making a crime spree out of one incident here. Somebody breaking into your car is a traumatic thing, it's true. You feel violated and angry, and rightfully so.
But people all too often read the papers, hear from their friends about a stolen car, etc., and conclude the world is going to hell. It's certainly not.
Still, being proactive isn't bad. When my wife and I bought our new car, we equipped it with Lojack and got the windows etched courtesy of NYPD - and got the Combat Auto Theft sticker put on. We also equipped the precinct with three used computers I was getting rid of, including a laptop specifically for CAT (which was used to etch our windows!).
The sky is not falling. Trust me.
amen! Yes one feels violated, enraged, so forth, but one must look at the more general outlook, The city maybe safe, but for how long? Oh well back to the Demy-Days Of dinky style living.
Don't feel bad partner, I hate your neighborhood too.
Just kidding (no I'm not) :)
That's one of the many many reasons why I do not own a car. With the extortionate costs for insurance, gas, maintenance and other costs associated with having a car, there's no way that I would own one.
As long as I live in an area with subway service, then I shall remain carless.
Also the fact that I'm dead stinking broke has a little to do with it.
you guys think that New York is bad for stealing cars and other crimes? then you need to visit montreal in undesireable Canada. i bet you you will come back on the bus!
or lets try philly
or better yet, newark
Even better, South Africa.
The species punkus assoleus exists in every corner of the world.
Ohhh-welll now - I guess we now know how riders of transit in the late 60's thru early 80's felt riding in vandalized trains, busses, painted over windows, seats, walls, broken and key (or switchblade-scarred) window glass - trash all over from the riding pig-lic of those times - it hurts when it hits home - especially if you mind your own
business and are respectful of property of others and then some sub-human puts his (or her) talents
and handiwork on your property. I remember back in the lower Bronx "badland" days, reading about people who.."off 'd" people over a GD parking spaces as a matter or routine modus-operandi. Rev Sharpton will put a stop to all that if he gets to be Mayor someday - he has alllll the answers, dont we know!
I don't quite know how to take that, but as a subway rider and a owner of a car,Ihave never defaced transit properety or anything of the sort. And yes, I do feel violated,and so does my wife.She's the one who took it harder than I did! And yes,I did once feel that this ''hood''got a raw deal,and still[I] FEEL that way. BUT still I pray everyday and still I continue with my life in the same mannor. Yes of course it hurt me and and put a dent in my pocket,but it more so hurt me mentally and opened my eyes to things that I choose not to see.Such as you never know who's watching you,your routine,and your comings andgoings. It could have been any number of things,or it could have been none of the above. Doesn't matter,what does matter is that it won't happen again.
>>> Doesn't matter,what does matter is that it won't happen again. <<<
That's pretty hard to say isn't it. Are you going to have an armed guard standing 24 hour watch over the car?
In Los Angeles I had my car window broken and the ignition lock damaged while my car was parked in front of my single family residence. The repairs came to just a small amount over the $250.00 deductible. One week after the window and ignition were repaired, the car was stolen from the same spot. When recovered thirty days later it was a total loss.
Later, another car was parked in a lot outside my office while I was working late. I came down and found a window broken and my car phone hand set missing (those were the pre hand held cell phone days). A few nights later, while my car was being repaired and I was driving a rental car, I heard breaking glass, so I went to the window overlooking the parking lot with the office lights turned off. Sure enough after about five minutes someone came around the corner of the building and went to the car. I called the police who caught a homeless man in the car, but I was still out two $250.00 deductibles for the repairs to my car and the rental car.
Still a third car was stolen from a downtown residential parking garage where the keys were given to the attendant. When the police recovered it several days later the trunk was full of Christmas presents. A few days later I got a telephone call at home from someone who wanted to get the Christmas presents back. The Scrooge that I was, I referred him to the investigating officer on the case, and never learned if he got his presents.
Tom
No - I did not mean imply towards YOU regarding how the public feels (or felt years ago) re: grime, dirt, trash, grafitti all over everything - I was really trying to put a message out to those who feel grafitti was "art" (and in some proper areas where it would be done in a designated, permitted area and tastefully, it could be art - like any public mural on a wall or other permitted, permission granted for that purpose - designated spot)...I did not imply that you perpetrated grafitti and was not comparing that to your car loss, which I sympathise with. I had a car stolen - and the police found it ten days later missing the battery and with a flat tire and 12 miles (I keep mileage logs for business) on it since MY last log-out) - but otherwise it was intact
except I had to replace the steering column ignition lock. What I meant was how the public felt "vandalized" not to mention those transit employees who really liked and cared about their jobs (and not to forget the TA who spent millions of $ fighting this wasteful vandalism)- the demoralizing feeling of the riding public and employees who had to face this rampant meaningless, cultureless scrawl EVERY day without relief...this is akin to what you rightfully feel - like I posted on this site somewhere previously - would these people who grafitti public (or other people's private) property want some stranger to grafitti THEIR car, truck, van, home - or worse - rob THEIR home or car or vandalize same. Of course not - but they dont care about what THEY do as such described herein - to OTHER people's property - or care less about the
damage, loss and emotional frustration and financial loss to their victims. I think you now get my point.
These cretins are the "turds" of society and laugh at the biblical phrase " do unto to others as you would do (or want done) to yourself.." So please accept my apology if you got an incorrect message - I am sure we all feel for you and agree with your
upset state of emotions - unfortunately - its life in the big city and believe me, surbrbia is not
immune from this either but not to as large a scale as large metropolitan areas. What you need is a used
armored truck (joking of course - its impractical)
but at least you still have the car to drive--for now. What happened to you is a total violation of your personal space and I DO understant that.
Obviously from his "rant" that this event sent him over the boiling point. Other things must've happened that he let slide, but this was IT.
I mean lets face it, every town (even in the sticks) has crime, but places like Bed-Stuy have a larger percentage of people that are up to no good. I don't blame him one bit for wanting to pack up.
Bed-Sty is not the best of areas. There should be somewhat better areas in the city that are still affordable, like Flushing, Woodside, or Astoria.
someone please take him out of his misery, it'll be best for all.
You might as well hate every neighborhood. My boss lives in the Bronx and his car har been broken into several times. I live in, as ron Kuby calls it, "Whitelandia". Not to long ago I got off at the Islip train station to find that the 4 tires on my car had been slashed along with about a dozen other cars. Several had all their windows smashed too. When people ask why my good car is a 10 year old Honda, that's why.
Rodney Dangerfield once told a joke about crime in upscale neighborhoods. He moved to a fancy neighborhood and was mugged by a fancy theif, using an electric razor. The cops told him it was his own fault for standing next to an electric outlet.
Don't blame the neighborhood. it's your fault for parking there.
Not to long ago I got off at the Islip train station to find that the 4 tires on my car had been slashed along with about a dozen other cars. Several had all their windows smashed too. When people ask why my good car is a 10 year old Honda, that's why.
Drive into one of the parking lots at LIRR Ronkonkoma late at night, when there aren't many cars around, and you'll say "How in the world can there be snow on the ground in July?"
Then you'll realize, it isn't snow, it's broken (auto) glass.
I've heard that Deer Park is the worst of all for vandalism.
You know Pete,sometimes you make plenty of sence.THIS is NOT one of those times.
You know, my name is not now nor has it ever been Pete. Nevertheless, I was not responding to your situation. I was responding to every subtalker who has been mugged, ever been robbed, ever had their car damaged. I related it to a story told by a fairly famous comedian and then related it to your situation, my situation and most everyone else's here. Let's keep it in perspective, shall we. It was just a car window and thankfully, not your wife's head. It sounds like you lost more than a piece of safety plate glass in that incident. It sounds like you also lost your sense of humor too.
Well,lets just say,if that happened to you or your family,it would be hard pressed to find humor it such a situation. It's not like I'm snaping at you,but while your angry,you have a tendecey to take EVERYTHING seriously. So if Ihave caused any offense to anyone here on this board,pardon me and no foul.OKAY? Thank you.
Not a problem here. When my tires were slashed, I was not happy about the inconvenience. Since I have full glass - it would have been easier for me if they had broken the windows in the car. Then again, Sears sells the tires for a Geo Metro for $12 each. I'd likely still be vacuuming the glass out of the car. All in all, it was not worth getting angry and shortening my life.
Sears sells the tires for a Geo Metro for $12 each.
I could buy *half* a tire for my Rodeo for the price of a full set for your Metro! That's part of the reason why I never drive to Ronkonkoma ("Welcome Vandals") station.
145 - 12 tires. One of the best kept secrets in the tire industry. Guardsman were $11.99 and Michelin or Goodyear were $24.99. Take the guardsman - save the $6.00 per tire for balancing and you are way ahead buying a new set every year. By the way, the tire on my wheel barrow cost more.
thats right pete
Tell your councilman along with your neighbors that you're fed up with having your car broken into and maybe something can be done about it.
A number of years ago when my mother worked in P.S. 46 in the Bronx her car trunk was broken into and they took of all things a bicycle rack. She was quite peeved about it at the time.
BMTJeff
There is also a precinct council you can attend, which often includes the precinct commander...
You can tell that to ekamehame777.
BMTJeff
We just did.
Heh heh, if you think car break-ins only occur in "bad" neighborhoods or in big cities, I've got a bridge between Brooklyn and Manhattan I'd like you to buy ...
Somebody already bought it. Why don't you offer him the upper deck of the GW instead?
>>> I used to say to people dont put BED-STY down,they'er having a hard enough time tring to survive.NOW, F--- THEM! They can all burn for all i care <<<
So now you blame the group for what a few individuals did? "They can all burn for all I care" presumably includes the honest God fearing persons in the area who make up the majority of the residents there. Once you cool off a little I hope you will change your mind.
Tom
How about instead of car alarms, everyone can have a little remote that activates a new kind of auto theft system. If someone unauthorized sits on the driver's seat, a 36 inch rod shoots up out of the seat. Hopefully, it'll end up you know where. Wouldn't that be great? Or, a small explosive placed under the seat. Not enough to kill, jut to require plastic surgery. I think it's time the government let citizens defend themselves. The cops sure aren't doing it.
Sorry about your car, dude.
Saw them on R42 4775 on Thursday. This map may actually have the shortest shelf life of any version when the V debuts in November.
Gotta give the TA credit. It wasn't too long ago when they couldn't be bothered..............
There was one map that was effective much shorter than that; perhaps only a few weeks to one month. I think it may have been the first map showing the
Willy B closed. Then some other change went into effect right after that (probably 63rd St work with the Broadway shuttle).
That map was basically the same as the map which preceeded it, with new service guides at the bottom denoting the changes. This new map is radically different.
Now that I think about it, the September 1990 Manhattan bridge "tease" map only lasted 6 months.
All cars will have the new maps before July 22. The next change will come mid-October for the November 11 opening of the V line.
Did anyone else notice these things:
The circle and diamond Qs are marked separately all along the line and at 57st terminal. The 5,6,7, and A only get separate circles and diamonds where the route actually differs.
There are two yellow lines on the 4th avenue subway.
There is no indication on the map that the W ever terminates at Pacific st. They're supposed to put a [W] at Pacific st, and there isn't one. The only way to tell that Pacific st is the last stop is that the W is in bold there, and not at Canal.
The [G] doesn't get a box at Court Square, either (not a new mistake).
There is no way to tell where the Q express ends.
Canal st is not correctly drawn. In the past, you could clearly tell by looking at the map that it was a separate platform.
The F·S·S stop at Broadway Lafayette. When the 63st shuttle was on the map it was not billed separately from the 42st Shuttle at Times Sq. Why should the two Ss be different?
Alabama ave is still not indicated as a J/Z stop.
The Z is not shown to stop at the Bowery, and the J isn't bold at Bowery.
Anyone else notice other things like this?
All information is correctly indicated in the Service Guide, with the possible exception of the Nassau st express.
I haven't seen the map yet. Is 49th shown as a local station (black bullet) or an express station (white bullet)? For that matter, what about 5th and Lex on the N/R/W?
49th St is correctly shown as a local stop. Both Q's will skip it, but not the W.
[7. The F·S·S stop at Broadway Lafayette. When the 63st shuttle was on the map it was not billed separately from the 42st Shuttle at Times Sq. Why should the two Ss be different?]
Maybe the earlier "single billing" was the error. Two separate "S" routes, especially with different colors, should be identified separately.
I haven't seent he new maps yet, but I'm not that surprised. Maybe once the V starts in Nov, the next version will be better done.
Point 9: The J/Z skip Bowery during the rush, so the map is correct here.
>Point 9: The J/Z skip Bowery during the rush, so the map is correct here.
It's supposed to, but since the reopening of the Williamsburg Bridge 2 years ago, both J and Z stopped there, and no explanation was ever given as to why. (Just like the E was supposed to skip 75th and Van Wyck all times, but began stopping there nights and weekends, and only recently did it began to be shown stopping there.)
Meet me at Bowery tomorrow at 5:PM and I'll treat you to some crow.
There is currently some construction going on at Morris Park station on the Dyre Ave. line, or rather on the narrow strip of land, normally fenced off, between the station and the adjacent apartment building. There is a "Caterpillar" motorized shovel currently parked on that strip of land, off Colden Ave. (i.e. at the bottom of the steep hill that runs from the level below the tracks to the level above them). The sidewalk underneath the elevated portion of the platforms is closed off, and construction material is stored there.
Anyone know what is being built? Is is possible that a new station entrance will be constructed, allowing access from the street under the elevated portion of the station?
Is that station due for ADA upgrade? I know that stations along White Plains Road are...
These days, if you see construction going on at a subway station, the most likely reason is the ADA compliance upgrade. Take a look at the mezzanine area, if there is one. If you see work being done that is consistent with elevator installation, then you have it. I am not being critical, for this is a very good thing. Besides, with the construction going on, there has to be planning and inspections as well, and if there are any previously ignored problems in the station, they can be addressed at the same time. Makes sense, right?
I agree with you- 100%.
Uusually I take the 4 to borough hall on weekends, but being that the 2 is my favorite A Division line, so i took it. I go to Times Square after Taking a R from Jamaica Center, only to wait 20 minutes or so. That might be normal for a weekend on the 7th avenue line. But the uptown side had 1 Trains, 2 Trains and 3 Trains pulling into the express platform every minute or so. Then a Redbird 2 pulls in onto the Downtown local track! Finally! I asked the Motorman what was going on, he told me someone gave birth on his 2 Train at 72nd and she waited for the Ambulance. Anyways he pulled into Wall. I had to say goodbye as Command Center ordered his next stop to be Nevins street.
Exciting.
The subway sees about 80 births a year. About 7 years ago, I stepped off an E train at 53/Lex and found a woman trying to have a baby right in front of me. I assisted the transit police and EMS in getting her out of a very crowded station and over to Cornell before The Main Event.
Then I made sure the transit cops got commendations. They did a great job, above and beyond.
The subway sees about 80 births a year.
Usually I think of it as more closely related to the other end of the life cycle.
"Usually I think of it as more closely related to the other end of the life cycle."
Like that incident a not so long ago of that farmer who rode the 1 for nine hours, with no one realizing that he died in his sleep?
Anyway, in a stretch of about a month, from late May to late June, I have seen two instances of motherly affection for her child, or translated properly, breastfeeding (which, BTW, is legal according to NYS Civil Rigts Law). One of them was on my home 6 line, and in that case the mother tried to conspicuously hide the act under her jacket, but to little avail.
There's nothing more beautiful than a mother nursing her child (I'm not being sarcastic). It certainly wouldn't offend me.
I'm pretty sure its beautiful (for some enlightened people), but on the subway it can either disturb or arouse some people. And that can result in delays.
Yes, true. We all have to be reasonable and prudent, and get along with others. Nursing mothers are not exempt from this.
I feel sorry for you on that, Peter. No legitimate reason for that attitude.
href="http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/stab07072001.htm">story in the boston herald
correction here
story in the boston herald
Seems a sidewalk collapse in SoHo (as per NY1) disrupted the N/R today in Manhattan. I first found out when I was going to meet a friend (coming from Times Square) at Canal St at 5:30pm. When I got to Canal St, the downtown N/R had tape across the stairs and at the uptown booth there were MTA personnel directing people to the 6. My friend couldn't get any downtown N/R trains at Times Square, so it didn't seem like there was any service in most of Manhattan.
We met instead at the 1/9 Canal Street station, and while walking from there noticed a packed M6 to South Ferry going east on Grand St. Guess Broadway was closed too...?
Also, last night I rode a train of R142As from 33 Street to Brooklyn Bridge. Everything about the train worked fine, but I noticed that in my car (I think it was 7333) both of the interior LED signs had part of their clear plastic covers broken. The covers were cracked but still intact (no fragments missing or anything). The actual LEDs underneath were perfectly functional, though a little harder to read through the cracks. Some people have nothing better to do I guess.
Oh that's right I heard about the Broadway sidewalk collapse at around 1pm on 880. Well if they still had disruption as late as 5:30pm that's why the R was so messed up. There was no mention on the train that I rode in Queens about the disruption.
That's a long time to have service disrupted. I guess they turned trains at Canal and 34th. What a mess!
I saw about a R32 and a R46 on the (R) on 6 Ave going to Queens this Morning. I heard that something on a Buliding falling falling down around Wall St. Now the Sidewale fall down? Where did the sidewalk fall down? I was on the M8(RTS #4145). And I did not saw the Sidewalk fall down. On NY1. They said that "the R is running on the 6 Ave line." Then at W 4St. The Lady on the PA said "The R is running to 34 St". Then a few minutes after that. The same lady on the PA said "There are no N and R train service." Boy I was mess up. And did not saw any R's running on 6 Ave. I did saw a R on Queens Blvd Line. And a R32 in the 63 St Tunnel.
Pretty ironic.
If I was in the same situation as you were in, I would have a little fun because I'm a railfan and I like to observe and search for different trains.
If that's the case, the R trains must have been running through the 63rd St Connector tunnel. They use a mix of R32's and 46's when there is no E service.
"If I was in the same situation as you were in, I would have a little fun because I'm a railfan and I like to observe and search for different trains."
I like many people here take advantage of anything irregular in the subway to develop our own interests. For example the recent rerouting of the F up the Culver EXPRESS tracks has stirred almost all of us and this is irregular service. Now, a mixup like the N/R one would be fun to me because I get to see a lot of trains where they hardly ever go such as the R down 6th Ave. Imagine riding that.
Unless I'm in a hurry, I follow reroutes whenever I come across them. When a Q pulled into the local track at W4, I hopped on without a second thought and stayed on until I was kicked off -- I don't remember where I was going but it certainly wasn't along the F in Brooklyn. And when a building collapse messed up 8th Avenue service a week or two ago, I was terribly disappointed when my A train ended up running its regular route (plus local stops).
That's unfortunate, but not surprising. The first time I rode a 142 (I think it was feb or March) I thought, "Gee, these cars are just TOO classy for a place like NY" As much as I love our city and the subway, there jsut sn't any denying that some folks see anything new as simply new territory to be marked, ya know?
I knew it had to happen, sooner of later> I assume the first few months thee trains were in testing, the manufacturers quickly cleaned up any damage?
story in the boston herald
story in the boston globe
Has anyone here herd of septa robert yard.
Want to explain exactly what you mean?
Which part of SEPTA do you refer to: City, Suburban, Frontier, Commuter rail or just what?
SEPTA--- ROBERTS AVE YARDS commonly referred to the Wayne junction Yards - but the Roberts Yards are on the south side of Wayne Avenue (site of the ex-route 53 street car route - now BUS) while the yards
North of Wayne Avenue (and Wayne Junction SEPTA ex Reading Lines Commuter station) are smaller with
a small maintenence facility. This section of the City of Phila is on the borderline of the Nicetown
(it isnt "nice" any more ) and larger Germantown
(it hasnt been German..for yearrrrrs) Section. The
Roberts yards are framed by Wayne Ave /Clarissa St. to the North (route 53 follows Wayne onto Clarissa
St. just east of the Wayne Junction RR underpasses)
--Roberts Avenue to the West (which parallels Route One (1) expressway over Wayne junction right next to Roberts west curbside with on/off ramps to Rt 1)
--Wissahickon Avenue to the South - and Rte 13 Hunting Park Ave. to the East...a VERY large section of rail yard spanning many blocks N-S-E & West
named for Roberts Avenue whose entrance to the yard
off Roberts is directly under the Route 1 Expressway
flyover which crosses over Roberts Ave. & NW yard corner and the Reading-Septa Rail line just below the Wayne Junction Station. It is used as a storage
yard - off peak revenue layup - repair and maintenance facility - carcass storge (old out of service equipment for cannibalization, scrap and/or sale including busses, streetcars, as well as a
large material supply yard for regional rail you-name-it items.
yes i know that there is a big junk yard.IS midvale
depot connect.
Yes - Midvale and Roberts yard are all on the same huge grounds (many many square blocks - the Midvale-Heppenstall plant (steel fabrication) used to be there and there were freight and gondola Pennsy and Reading tracks for materials in and out of the plant grounds years ago...it was all abandoned when Midvale closed its plant and the grounds - greater part of the rail grounds were taken up and expanded by Septa about 18 years ago.
The north end is called the Roberts section due to the main gate under the Rt 1 Expressway off Roberts Ave.(as I previously detailed) while the south end is called the Midvale section with its gates off Wissahickon Ave - simply for routing the delivery trucks to the proper depot. The Midvale end has more of the material storage in it(rails, ties, signals, structural parts. specialwork, railcar parts and parts supply storage warehouses...the Roberts end is mainly the railcar yard along with the small facility above Wayne Junctuion Station
eg; the ex-Reading RR Commuter repair and storage
at the N. end of the station - some work equipmnemnt is stored there. I am just curious as to the nature of your info request - you cant just walk into those yards as security is tight--very tight...not like the good old Reading RR Days.
I guess septa own a lot of space in the Nicetown area.I remember that i seen MFL car #1001 in the truck section around Wissahickon ave alot above midvale section.iI'm just wounding is lurzern depot took all of MIdvale funtions before they close down in june of 1997?
Patkylekenny
Isn't taigo border there also.
story in the boston herald
story in the boston herald
Why do I have this ugly feeling in my gut that nothing particularly constructive is going to come out of that mess up on the T?
story in the boston globe
The building in the photo below is adjacent to the NJCL tracks, on the outbound side shortly after leaving the Perth Amboy station. Today it's used by the wire plant, but from what I have heard (and supported by its architecture) it was once a station - probably a freight station, but my sources don't really know. Does anyone know the real history of this building?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, is there some sort of yard and/or loop track around Perth Amboy? Is the engine house still there?
Not that I've seen... there is the remains of a yard at South Amboy, but that was for the other branch, not the NJCL. The engine facility at South Amboy is long gone.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
story in the boston herald
Further proof that people are fucking idiots.
Here's to hoping the rock thrower gets a bit more than he deserves.
If he gets caught and has to serve time in a state pen, he just might become a Maytag for some muscular sex predator. That might give him something to think about.
story in the boston herald
don't know how I let this one slip by
from the boston globe
well that was only the 1/2 of what happened , the lynchings that were reported ( not just in the southeastern united states ) but .......
nationwide. it is one of the many good reasons why so many black folks including my great grandmother moved to washington d.c.
& new york , philadelphia & got away from the carolinas,.... long before i ever rode a subway train in nyc 1951-1959!!! only to be moved to the west coast to ride the last of the PE cars & the Lary-pcc cars etc.. 1959 -1961 1962 !!! I guess this is where i got my handle from !!
That's not the issue the issue is that someone lied for their own personal benefit. Kinda like when Clinton lied about seeing black churches burning when he didn't.
Lies, lies, and more lies. That's why so many people hate each other's guts nowadays. On serious issues like these leadership tippy toes around hoping not to offend voters, and usually the end result is an inflammation on the commute to work and vice versa.
>>> That's not the issue the issue is that someone lied for their own personal benefit. <<<
Personal benefit might be a little too strong. More like personal aggrandizement. This is similar to the respected history professor who faked a Viet Nam war record to illustrate his lectures with "personal observations," and several years back, the highly effective and popular Navy Admiral who did the right thing (committed suicide) when it was discovered that he was wearing ribbons for medals of valor that he never earned.
In the instant case, now that the guy has fessed up he can sink into obscurity.
Tom
Last March, while wandering around Perth Amboy, I discovered some trestle piers located in an industrial area between the wire plant (adjacent to the NJCL tracks) and the Victory Bridge (route 35). I've thumbnailed the pics due to their size; click for the big picture. Both pictures are looking north; Raritan Bay is a relatively short distance behind me. The road appears to be relatively new and probably took out several piers when it was constructed. The piers end abruptly, shortly before the ground drops away sharply into a cleared grassy area in the distance. I'm presuming that this was an industrial spur of some kind, but I don't know.
Does anyone know if this indeed was a railroad spur, and if so what railroad it connected to, what industry it served, and when it was built and abandoned?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd say it was a coaling company, or a quarry.
-Hank
Today I went to Long Beach. Going took about 2.5 hours, that was with the bus (N27+N15) and the traffic on Long Beach road was terrible. The beach was busy all right, and a nice day so that's why it was so busy (plus a fair). Going back I took the LIRR. Actually that was part of the idea of the beach anyway. There's this 4:45pm express that stops only at Jamaica and Penn station. It's a great idea. The train was busy, almost every seat taken. Glad to see some of the smarter people chose the train instead of sitting in traffic and fighting for spaces (I know Robert Moses likes that idea, exactly why I can't stand Jones Beach).
It's slow right up until the bridge crossing, and lots of light flickering. Then after we pass the sign midway on the bridge "Begin ASC" speeds pick up. Definately after Island Park we breezed through the stations. The power poles south of E.Rockaway are burdened with 6 major cables. It's a good run, after slowing a bit before Lynbrook we pick up speed and do 60 or more via the Atlantic branch. Actually I think the route the local track takes might be a bit quicker than the two northern tracks that connect with the Babylon tracks. You join the main line right before Jamaica station. And that's where I got off, though most people stayed on. I guess they're Manhattanites who take the train to Long Beach (smart thinking).
And this coming Tuesday is another trip to Long Beach, which I will be going on. I believe it starts at Flushing at 4pm, I'm sure Thurston will update you all on the details. I would just like to know when the arrival time at Long Beach should be, since I wouldn't want to leave later than around 8:30pm for the long, long trip home. The weather should be warm and humid with a chance of thunderstorms according to the latest forecast. Hopefully it will NOT rain. Anybody have an idea the best way to go back to Sea Cliff? I was thinking the 8:53pm train to Jamaica, then an Oyster Bay bound train back to Sea Cliff. As long as it don't rain since it's a long walk I guess that's the best way. Long Beach is one of the best places on LI, so I hope to see you all there.
You might want to check the times on N15 to Mineola (might have to walk a couple of blocks from Old Country Road to station). The N15 does go to the Hempstead depot first ... don't know how long it sits there ... just a thought on a two seat ride.
Mr t__:^)
On the weekend there is always the beach special that runs express from Penn (does NOT STOP at Jamacia) to Long Beach. 10:02am to 10:48 a much better time then last years 9am express.
The return trip does stop at Jamaica at 4:45pm (Jay 5:11pm) Penn 5:30pm) this Beach Special is eariler then lsat years 530pm run.
This train runs Weekends and Holidays May 26 to Sept 9, 2001.
Well as long as the weather is fine it's easier and quicker to take the Long Beach train to Jamaica and get the Oyster Bay train. Or if I can get to Flushing before the last N21 at 9:50pm.
Going from Jamaica to Flushing I took the subway, but with all the construction I might've been better taking the bus.
I walk down to the platform and an R pulls in (per G.O. R trains replace E in Queens). I get on and we sit there for 8 minutes due to a "train ahead of us". By Forest Hills the train was packed, but I stay on.An F does get by us on the express while stopped at Grand. I saw a packed R train Queensbound after what appeared to be a large gap in trains. Then at Roosevelt ave I get off and up the long crowded escalator (one guy in front of me saw the empty downside and ran up it), but all Flushing bound trains are running express (as per another G.O.) so it's back to Woodside on a PACKED 7 train. Then down and around to ride another PACKED 7 train back to Flushing. I left Jamaica at 5:16pm, but didn't get to Flushing until 6:05pm, almost an hour later. So much construction. I know they saw they can't run the E because of 53rd tunnel track work, but the R runs less often. I think the E should run and go via 63rd street and down 6th ave, where at W4th it switches back to 8th ave to WTC. I really have that Queens BLVD G.O. Frustrating enough F's have to run local from Roosevelt to 36th, but then there's no E, leaving anyone between Jamaica CEnter and Parsons to rely on that horrible R train.
The problem with the R train today in Queens was due to some kind of street collapse around Prince St. interrupting BMT Bway service. I heard something about trains from Brooklyn terminating at Whitehall and trains from Queens terminating at 34/Bway.
N trains were terminating at QBP as per a separate G.O. The 42st dispatchers had a short party when they realized they no longer had to turn Ns, until they realized they had to move to 34th to wrestle with turning Rs. On the Brooklyn front, trains turned at Whitehall until at some point around 6:30, 1/3rd of the trains were extended to Canal. These were turned with the aid of an additional T/O by pulling in on northbound local, reversing into "southbound" lower city hall lead, and reversing again into southbound local (wrong-railing).
Here are a few annoying G.O.s that killed any possible cool routing of trains:
N turning at QBP means if the R were sent via 6th and over bridge, there would be no broadway line service at all. So the R remained split.
J trains had to turn at Chambers (in the station) on the westernmost tracks, while the eastern half of the station was worked on. This means that no through service was possible, meaning that there was no option to route a few N or R trains up Nassau to at least get people to a transfer station in Manhattan (open first four / five cars only kind of thing).
Essex street was using the center track for northbound service, so that even if they could route the N or R onto Nassau they could only turn at Chambers.
Can anyone elaborate on this work? There are wooden structures on the unused middle platform. Is this station finally getting rehabbed!!!???
If that's so, then it's about time; the situation there last time I looked was desperate bordering on dangerous with dozens of leaks, powdering concrete and falling chunks of stuff.
wayne
Considering it's location, it's an abomination. Right under City Hall park ...
Actually, the Chambers Street BMT station is under 1 Centre Street (aka the Municipal Building). City Hall Park is across the street.
"Frustrating enough F's have to run local from Roosevelt to 36th, but then there's no E, leaving anyone between Jamaica CEnter and Parsons to rely on that horrible R train."
I love the R train...... It comes at least.....
N Bwy Line
[Going from Jamaica to Flushing I took the subway, but with all the construction I might've been better taking the bus.]
Sure, the bus would have been a little faster, but the train gave you more to complain about - isn't that worth a few extra minutes?
Depending on the specific bus route, and asssuming travel on a Saturday at about noon, your options would have been as follows:
Q17 (188th-Kissena): 45 minutes from Archer/Merrick to Roosevelt/Main
Q20A (Main St): 45 minutes from Merrick/Archer to Main/39 Av
Q25 (Parsons-Kissena): 38 minutes from 160th/Jamaica to Main/Roosevelt
Q44 (Main St Limited): 38 minutes from Merrick/Archer to Main/39 Av
Q65 (164th St): 37 minutes from 160th/Jamaica to Main/Roosevelt
My bad - I just reread Qtraindash7's original post and noticed that he departed from Jamaica at 5:16pm, whereas my response assumed 12:00 noon.
Corrected travel times are as follows:
Q17: 49 minutes
Q20A: 37 minutes
Q25: 38 minutes
Q44: 33 minutes
Q65: 37 minutes (unchanged)
Well having walked almost the entire Long Beach boardwalk I was kinda exhausted, so having a one seat ride might have been more comfortable as well as quicker. If I hadn't forgotten about the Broadway problems that day when I got off the LIRR at Jamaica I would've taken the bus back.
The Q44 or Q20 A/B is a pretty good way to Flushing from there.
Questions/Comments:
1) I saw the sign Do not lean on door on the Q about three months ago.
2) Why were these signs pulled in favor of Do not hold doors. Was that a bigger problem? I don't find it odd to still see someone leaning on the doors.
3) What is the difference between safety measures of not dragging people between the redbirds/R32/R38/R40/R42 and the R44/46/62/68/110/142? What exactly are the measures taken and when exactly does the driver's light go on that it's okay to go?
4) Is the TA doing anything about holding the doors?
5) On the cars that have it, when does the yellow light blink that warns the conductor some of the doors aren't closed? I have yet to ever see it blink.
Any answers would be appreciated.
Question 1 is not a question, is it?
Question number 3 is easy - there is no difference! Door obstruction sensors make it more precise before the conductor gets his indication. The new sensors can sense the fabric of a man's jacket sleeve. Once the conductor gets his indication, he turns his key and the operator gets his indication. Once the train is moving, the conductor is obliged to look out the window for several car lengths to insure that nobody is being dragged. At curved stations, the TA has installed CCTV monitors for the conductor to view.
Your premise for question 5 is wrong. If a door is obstructed, there is a steady red light. A yellow light indicates something else and a blinking yellow is something altogether different.
Since almost all station will eventually have CCTV why not build a central control center and put the conductors there. That why the conductors will not waste time ridding between stations?
Many factors imply on building a central control center.
1. Where can they fund the money to build one?
2. Where is the space where they can build one?
3. Who's responsibility is it going to be to wire all the cameras together and to purchase new cameras?
4. The purpose of a conductor on board the train is to assist passengers of subway advisories, transfers, etc. and to close the doors at the proper time when all the passengers are on board. Especially on longer trains and rush hour trains, a motorman cannot handle the announcements and the engineering (driving) of the train at the same time.
5. What will be the purpose of the conductors working at the CCTV "central control center"?
6. As a conductor, it is their job to assist and maintain the operation of NYCT on board their train. (Means they get paid, they don't waste time)
Hope this helps.
Where can they fund the money to build one?
From the money they will save on conductors in the future. Labor is expensive.Where is the space where they can build one?
The MTA is building a control center (although not for this specific purpose) at 9th Avenue and 54th Street, a site formerly a bus depot. There is a lot of empty space in the city, and this facility doesn't even have to be inside the city.Who's responsibility is it going to be to wire all the cameras together and to purchase new cameras?
Many stations already have cameras. Every station already has a fiber-optic hookup thanks to Metrocard. These costs can quickly be amortized due to labor savings.The purpose of a conductor on board the train is to assist passengers of subway advisories, transfers, etc. and to close the doors at the proper time when all the passengers are on board. Especially on longer trains and rush hour trains, a motorman cannot handle the announcements and the engineering (driving) of the train at the same time.
Are you British or retarded? we were talking about replacing the door closers with people in a central location, not making operators into door monkeys too.What will be the purpose of the conductors working at the CCTV "central control center"?
I guess you're not British after all.As a conductor, it is their job to assist and maintain the operation of NYCT on board their train. (Means they get paid, they don't waste time)
It's obvious they do get paid, but they do so for an obsolete position. There used to be one conductor per car. That's over, it's time for the one conductor to go.
You put the CCTV monitor in the cab and feed it with RF signals. That gives you OPTO and Railfan windows.
Or you put the cameras on the cars.
Why will all have CCTV? Only the curved stations need them.
Once the train is moving, the conductor is obliged to look out the window for several car lengths to insure that nobody is being dragged. At curved stations, the TA has installed CCTV monitors for the conductor to view.
The CCTV monitors are in the station near the conductor's position. Once the train is moving these monitors are no longer visible. I fail to understand the benefit derived from the CCTV's once the train is moving.
to view blind spots while the train is stationary,l ike around curves.
"I fail to understand the benefit derived from the CCTV's once the train is moving."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt that you don't understand the benefit of the CCTV. However, I'll play. If the conductor looks at the monitor at his position he/she can see the entire train in 4 sections. Hence, in a curved station he can see a potential problem before it occurs. Of course I'm sure even you would agree that CCTV is more cost-effective than straightening the curved stations.
The CCTV monitors are opposite the conductor's position on the platform. The monitors are angled so that they cannot be viewed unless the conductor is directly in front of them. These monitors cannot be viewed from an offset of more than 15 feet. ONCE THE TRAIN STARTS MOVING, the conductor's positition on the moving train will be reach this offset in 2 seconds so that these monitors are no longer visible by the moving conductor. I fail to understand any benefit derived from non-visible monitor screens which is the case after the train has started moving to leave the station.
The monitors are useful only when they can be viewed. The current implementation provides this only when the train is stationary in the station and the conductor is in position directly in front of them.
Exactly. So you do understand it. How would a conductor know to close the train doors unless the CCTV shows him they are "clear?"
There is a more effective alternative: cameras on the cars and monitors in the cabs. The main problem with this is, you guessed it, $$$$$.
There is an even more effective solution that would cost only a fraction of the cost. Start posting pictures of the peope who do get dragged because of their own stupidity. post befoe and after shots, prominantly in the busiest stations. Make them graphic enough and some people may get the message. those that don't, well they'll learn another way.
By the way, did anyone hear about the incident at Wyandanch Friday AM. A future darwin award recipient got onto a ronkonkoma train by mistake instead of a Huntington train. When he got to wyandanch, he realized his mistake and got off. Since this mistake was not his fault at all, he decided to take it out on the departing train. He repeatedly kicked the train as it left the station (the C/R was not watching) and somehow got himself entangled in something or other. He was dragged an unspecified distance before the train finally stopped (sadly it was not all the way to Deer Park). he's now resting (comfortably?) at Good Sam Hospital with head injuries, internal injuries and multiple lacerations.
There is an even more effective solution that would cost only a fraction of the cost. Start posting pictures of the peope who do get dragged because of their own stupidity. post befoe and after shots, prominantly in the busiest stations. Make them graphic enough and some people may get the message. those that don't, well they'll learn another way.
That would be infringing on rotten.com's turf!
And they say there's no justice in this world.
Cameras and monitors would suddenly do away with most of the disadvantages of OPTO (and would allow OPTO even with half-width cabs). That could save the TA a lot of money. Somehow I don't think the TA's employees would be thrilled, though, especially the ones who end up TA ex-employees when this is put into action.
When removing positions, they don't fire. That would piss off the union. They just hire less next time around.
The post to which I replied was:
"Once the train is moving, the conductor is obliged to look out the window for several car lengths to insure that nobody is being dragged. At curved stations, the TA has installed CCTV monitors for the conductor to view."
The problem is to insure that nobody is being dragged. The solution has been that the conductor look outside his window, while the train is leaving the station. I fail to see how a non-visible CCTV monitor can possibly aid a conductor in at curved stations for this single task.
How would a conductor know to close the train doors unless the CCTV shows him they are "clear?"
I tried to place a qualifier in each statement in my previous posts that my doubts are limited to the period of time that the train is leaving a station. I will concede CCTV can help a conductor in avoiding closing doors on passengers.
However, if the CCTV or the current or future door sensors were adequate then there would be no reason for a conductor to conduct a visual check while the train is leaving the station. There are problems with a visual check. My point is that the CCTV does not aid this visual check one bit.
>>> However, if the CCTV or the current or future door sensors were adequate then there would be no reason for a conductor to conduct a visual check while the train is leaving the station. <<<
Hmm, there is a good reason it is spelled R-E-D-U-N-D-A-N-C-Y. You wouldn't fly in a commercial airplane without backup systems, and where human life is concerned in the subway you do not depend on only one way to prevent accidents. The goal is to make the system at least as safe as the original system which had an attendant at each place a passenger entered the car.
Tom
"However, if the CCTV or the current or future door sensors were adequate then there would be no reason for a conductor to conduct a visual check while the train is leaving the station."
In the 40s and 50s, when TA ridership levels exceeded even today's numbers, there were not this level of drags and door related incidents. There were no 'Door Obstruction Sensors' nor were there CCTV monitors. So what has changed? The demographics of the city of NY and the number of lawyers have both shifted radically. The trouble is the TA has designed cars that are foolproof but they've under-estimated the determination of the fools.
"So what has changed? The demographics of the city of NY and the number of lawyers have both shifted radically."
Ignoring the lawyers, are you saying the people of the City have gotten stupider?? I'm not sure that's provable...
-Alan Scott
Not more stupid - less aware, less intune with their environment, less considerate, less civilized. To be politically incorrect - more 3rd world.
I agree in general. New technology is a possible cause, what do you think?
"New technology is a possible cause, what do you think?"
Considering what I personally observe, I'd say it's a problem of 'education' and culture. Although, if you think about it, you are correct by default. If the TA did not worry about safety - if people could ride where they liked, inside, outside or on top, then the doors would not have to be designed to be so discrete.
"I agree in general. New technology is a possible cause, what do you think?"
By designing a system that is supposed to prevent something, and that something happens nonetheless, then you are at fault.
If on the other hand you did not build certain features into your contraption, you would not be liable for them not working.
Take a simple example: You shovel the snow from your sidewalk badly, and someone slips and is hurt, then you are at fault. But if you did not shovel the walk at all, then you are not liable for their injuries since snow is a normal and naturally occuring condition.
Of course (catch-22) you would get a ticket for not clearing your sidewalk, but you still could not be held liable for a slip and fall.
Now to look at car doors: If a reasonable precaution against a trapped bodypart or acouterment is taken (without a bunch of high-tech stuff) reasonable and normal precautions have been taken. But if you fancy high-tech gismo fails to protect then you are liable.
OK... now about watching for two car lengths, the rule was written before the advent of high-tech wizzadry, and is still used as an additonal back-up. As was pointed out, you cannot make the system fool-proof, but you can make it as safe as you can.
Watching for two car lengths will do nothing for some one trapped in the very first door on the train. Maybe the should put MORE C/Rs on the train, you think?
Or better yet put all of the lawyers *under* the train. After all people gotta take some responsibility for their own safety.
Elias
In the 40s and 50s, when TA ridership levels exceeded even today's numbers, there were not this level of drags and door related incidents. There were no 'Door Obstruction Sensors' nor were there CCTV monitors. So what has changed? The demographics of the city of NY and the number of lawyers have both shifted radically. The trouble is the TA has designed cars that are foolproof but they've under-estimated the determination of the fools.
Let me offer a possible explanation ...
Most lines had more frequent service back in the 1940's and 1950's than they do today. Missing a train back then wasn't a huge deal, as there most likely would be another one along in a few minutes. Today's less-frequent service makes a just-missed train a greater inconvenience. Riders therefore are more likely to rush in as the doors are closing.
Assuming that you are correct about less frequent service, I still see people at the south end of the southbound plat. at Columbus Circle. They do a mad dash down the stairs and dive at closing doors. They don't take the time to see if anyone is there or not. they don't consider the consequences. Now, the D runs every 6 minutes as does the A. Does 6 minutes make that much difference - in view of the potential consequences?
In today's society nobody is ever on time. They are either very early or very late. There are the people that woke up an hour late and 6 minutes means a lot to them. Then there are the people that are perfectly on time but want to catch an earlier train because being very early sounds very appealing to them and also if there's a problem with the train he wants time to spare. Today, rejecting a chance to gain time no matter what the difference of early/lateness is like rejecting a hundred dollar bill you find in the middle of the sidewalk.
BULLSHIT! People still play fast and loose with their safety and everyone else's convenience. Friday AM I was on a train at Tremont Avenue. Perhaps 1,000 - 1,500 people aboard. One macho asshole was in the 2nd car, being a 'good samaritan', was holding the doors so a few stragglers wouldn't miss the train. So he's inconveniencing 1,500 people for the sake of 5. In doing so, what is he doing to the door system. Is he bending the door edge rubber - critical to the obstruction sensor safety system? Is he damaging the motor? Is he bending critically adjusted door pull-rods?
Same goes for the jackass who pushes his head into an already crowded car and the doors close on his neck (and yes, I have seen that too). If 6 minutes means that much to someone, they should re-arrange their personal habits or their priorities.
"Same goes for the jackass who pushes his head into an already crowded car and the doors close on his neck (and yes, I have seen that too). If 6 minutes means that much to someone, they should re-arrange their personal habits or their priorities."
Are guillotine blades an option on the new R142 doors? :0)
Part of the problem is that trains stop in the wrong places. You raise Columbus Circle. IINM, there's a significant gap between the front of the train and the south end staircase. If that were eliminated and the train stopped with the front door lined up at the staircase itself, there would be no need to run on the platform. (The much more lightly used north entrance isn't at the far north end of the platform. In fact, the northernmost staircase was removed in the past few years.) I've mentioned the similar issue at 96th, where the (9-car) 3 stops one car length away from the south entrance, which is at the far south end of the platform, even though the north entrance is about one car length of its end.
IINM, the A and D each run at 10-minute midday headways. The A has two branches; just missing the one you needed means you've lost 20 minutes (unless you manage to catch up to it -- B/D to F to A has a chance of making it if there are no waits, and given the alternative, it's probably worth trying if you don't mind changing trains a few times). The A also connects (twice) to the J, which was running at 24-minute midday headways for a few months.
>>> In the 40s and 50s, when TA ridership levels exceeded even today's numbers, there were not this level of drags and door related incidents. <<<
Perhaps part of the reason was that the doors did not get such a tight hold on a grabbed limb, and it was therefore easier to extract oneself from a closed door before being dragged, particularly on the single leaf doors.
Tom
In the 40s and 50s, when TA ridership levels exceeded even today's numbers, there were not this level of drags and door related incidents
I'm not so sure. I had posted some statutes from NY State Railroad Law and NY State Rapid Transit Law regarding passenger rights when entering and leaving trains. The interesting point was that the bulk of the case law associated with these statutes dated from the gate car days. There was at least one case involving the IRT from the early 1930's. Such incidents are isolated and easily forgotten certainly half a century later.
So what has changed?
Plenty of things have changed including the following:
For the IRT:
Was there any fundamental difference in the door closing mechanisms between the IRT LV's (the equipment of the 40's and 50's) and the post WWII equipment? Something about doors reversing direction, when an obstacle was detected?
Are there fundamental differences in the perceived dynamics between the closing of single and double leaf doors?
Did the use of cars with vestibules contribute to passengers entering the vestibules and exit at the center doors and avoiding two-way passenger flow across the door threshold?
Did not the iron railings at the platform edges of heavily used stations like Grand Central, Times Sq, etc. lead to more orderly platform movement?
For the BMT:
Did not the seating arrangment on the standards reduce the number of standees and their tendancy to bunch around the doors?
Did not the doors on the standards with their center poles not segregate entering and exiting passengers?
Did the extra width of the door aisles combined with the placement of standee poles on the standards not provide for a clear passageway to and from the car interiors?
For the IND:
Have you factored in the differences in service levels? The IND service levels were: 15 tph for both locals and expresses with 10 car expresses and 7 (GG), 8 (BB) or 9 (CC) car locals.
Have you accounted for the difference in the number of doors per unit length between 60 foot and 75 foot cars?
The demographics of the city of NY and the number of lawyers have both shifted radically.
I think you should consider the effects of the abovementioned changes before you scapegoat the victims.
The trouble is the TA has designed cars that are foolproof but they've under-estimated the determination of the fools.
My guess is that the TA has a design blind spot on the door sensor mechanisms, from the technical discussions you've presented. There are really two problems: are the doors closed and is there somebody caught in a closed door? The TA appears to be addressing this problem with a single sensor that is designed to address the first problem. There are plenty of people detectors around (visual, acoustic and heat) that address the second problem. I believe that two sensors are required and that any attempt to address the problem by simply finding out if the doors are "sufficiently" closed is bound to fail.
I don't feel like joining your "What-If" convention. However, I will address your last point. There are three systems in place to prevent drags (except on the redbirds).
The first is the traditional guardlight circuit. The guardlight circuit cannot be made up unless all doors are closed and locked.
The second is the obstruction sensor. More critical than the guardlight circuit, it can sense a piece of fabric caught between the two door panels. Moreover, if there is an obstruction, simply moving the panels back and forth against the pushback feature will not clear the obstruction sensor. The obstruction must be removed or the OSS (Onstruction Sensing Switch) will never clear.
The third is the pushback feature. This is strictly a mechanical safety device. Once the door panel is closed and locked, the panel can still be moved 1.5" or 3" per opening for someone to extracate themselves if necessary.
As to the systems that you suggest, I assume that these are very precise devices that do not have the 'slop' that electro-mechanical systems have. Have you ever worked on a rapid transit door system other than in the abstract? Given the amount of abuse that the doors take, the systems you suggest would prevent a train from ever leaving a busy station. I maintain that if you put out a train with perfectly adjusted doors and one of these systems that you suggest, say on the F line in the AM. I'd say that your train would be out of service 8 to 10 minutes later either by Union Turnpike or Continental Avenue. In fact, I'd bet on it.
I believe you mentioned in a previous post that the sensor for the guardlight circuit is a microswitch that is actuated, when the door is sufficiently closed.
I am not familiar with the "obstruction" sensor. What does it measure; how does it work?
As to the systems that you suggest, I assume that these are very precise devices that do not have the 'slop' that electro-mechanical systems have. Have you ever worked on a rapid transit door system other than in the abstract?
I have not worked on a rapid transit door system. My instrumentation experience has been limited to space avionics, oceanographic instrumentation and factory floor automation. I would submit that my designs have overcome the practical differences between the real and theoretical worlds and have proved useful when they were deployed.
Given the amount of abuse that the doors take, the systems you suggest would prevent a train from ever leaving a busy station. I maintain that if you put out a train with perfectly adjusted doors and one of these systems that you suggest, say on the F line in the AM. I'd say that your train would be out of service 8 to 10 minutes later either by Union Turnpike or Continental Avenue.
Actually, I was considering a novel application of an existing optical technology. Its existing devices are fairly inexpensive and quite robust mechanically, certainly capable of withstanding the subway's 0.2g forces. It would also be insensitive towards ambient light. It would require only a simple minimal one-time adjustment but would be able to detect an obstruction within the outside of the door frame of 50 mils. This minimum threshold could be scaled up without too much trouble, should this result in too many false alarms.
My major design question is how inexpensive does such a device have to be on a per door basis?
I'd certainly expect that there would be some unforseen problems when any device is field tested. I'd also expect that a testing period would identify such problems and a solution could be found or the design would be abandoned before it would cause service delays.
"I have not worked on a rapid transit door system. My instrumentation experience has been limited to space avionics, oceanographic instrumentation and factory floor automation. I would submit that my designs have overcome the practical differences between the real and theoretical worlds and have proved useful when they were deployed."
And I'm sure you have many proud accomplishments there. But it also explains why some of your analyses regarding, and solutions to practical problems on the subway are so unrealistic.
I believe a lot of what you say can be exploited for productive use on mass transit, but some "translation" is necessary. Boeing Vertol failed to achieve that translation, which is why the company failed to design a practical, deployable rapid transit system.
...some of your analyses regarding, and solutions to practical problems on the subway are so unrealistic.
We are all captives to some extent of our professional training and experience. A design for electronic equipment from a person with only railroad industry training is not realistic, if it depends on components that are no longer readily available.
I've tried to show that many of my operational solutions are not new nor unique. Many of them, particularly with regard to service levels, have been used by by the TA or its predecessors in the past or by other systems of comparable size.
I believe a lot of what you say can be exploited for productive use on mass transit, but some "translation" is necessary. Boeing Vertol failed to achieve that translation, which is why the company failed to design a practical, deployable rapid transit system.
Boeing-Vertol did not design the Type 6 LRV's, they built it. The design belonged to a joint committee by the Boston and San Francisco. I don't know who is responsible for the Type 8 design but Breada, a non-aerospace and dedicated transit manufacturer, appears no more capable of delivering a deployable rapid transit vehicle.
There is no general law that can be gained about a design or equipment from the manufacturer's or designer's background. The practicality of the design or equipment must rest on its own merits.
"There is no general law that can be gained about a design or equipment from the manufacturer's or designer's background."
I agree. Each individual must be viewed by his/her particular background and the particular contribution or work he/she offers. The same is true when evaluating teams against each other.
The door obstruction system is also microswitch based (which I was never a big fan of). The difference is that instead of sensing that an individual panel is closed & locked, it senses the relative position of the two adjacent panels. The actual explanation would take forever to write but in short, Even if the door is closed and locked, due to the pushback feature, an object such as a handbag strap could be in the doors and not be sensed by the G/light circuit. However, if that same strap is trapped between two panels, one or the other obstruction sensing switch will not make up. If the doors are rocked, one will break before the other makes up. In the original system, such rocking could clear the guard light and permit the train to move. With obstruction sensing, this should not be possible.
As to your credentials, I was not mocking you. What I meant to convey is that precision measuring and rapid transit do not exist well together. You would be suprised as to what sort of vandalism the door systems are subject to. However, if you think you have one that could be useful, I'd like more info,- privately, of course.
What car classes have this OSS feature? I assume only thoe
with single-leaf door operators. It must be after my time,
because I don't remember anything like that in door systems training.
How well does the Obstruction Sensor deal with a cocked door panel?
I.e. does it have the same minimum detection threshold regardless
of whether the obstruction is at the top, bottom or middle?
I
All but the redbirds have the system. However, a cocked panel or a cut door edge rubber (which is integral to the system) will effect the performance. This is why I have little faith in the viability of such electro-mechanical systems where vandalism is so prevalent.
You mean the R32s with the double-leaf operators have this
sensor too? Where is it, up top on the hangers?
It's mounted with the PSS switch - on the same bracket.
You are quite right aboutr equipment practicalities. Whatever you use on the subway must be KISS-compliant (Keep It Simple, Stupid) and able to work even while a bunch of gorillas passing for riders try to take it apart (remember the Samsonite commercials?).
"Question 1 is not a question, is it?"
I distinctly labelled the items "questions/comments."
"Question number 3 is easy - there is no difference! Door obstruction sensors make it more precise before the conductor gets his indication. The new sensors can sense the fabric of a man's jacket sleeve. Once the conductor gets his indication, he turns his key and the operator gets his indication. Once the train is moving, the conductor is obliged to look out the window for several car lengths to insure that nobody is being dragged. At curved stations, the TA has installed CCTV monitors for the conductor to view."
Then why does everybody complain about the redbirds?
"Your premise for question 5 is wrong. If a door is obstructed, there is a steady red light. A yellow light indicates something else and a blinking yellow is something altogether different."
What is the yellow light for? I'm interested.
"Then why does everybody complain about the redbirds?"
They are old and they are falling apart. By the way, the redbirds do not have the door obstruction system.
"What is the yellow light for? I'm interested."
The yellow light, on all cars, indicates that the propulsion system on that car has had a significent failure and is locked out. This light illuminates automatically.
On the IRT, the blinking yellow light indicates that someone has tampered with the emergency brake cord in that car.
>>>>>>>5) On the cars that have it, when does the yellow light blink that warns the conductor some of the doors aren't closed? I have yet to ever see it blink.
On the IRT cars, a flashing yellow light is supposed to signify where the emergency brake was activated. In actuality, it just shows where the emer brake cover was lifted up.
Okay, thanks, when I watched an NY1 story after a redbird dragging, they spent 1-2 minutes discussing the double yellow lights on top of each other where the red door lights are except at the ends of the cars. I think they mentioned how it was supposed to alert the train crew if there was a problem.
"discussing the double yellow lights on top of each other"
Not on any NYC transit vehicle that I know of.
They look like the outside red lights by every door except they're yellow.
I've seen the light blink on a car before. I got on and the cover was in it's closed position. Must the light be "reset" or something?
The solenoid(?) on the emergency brake cover is very sensitive, and the cover doesn't always stay properly closed. It may look closed to the naked eye but be open just enough to activate the blinking light.
David
Wouldn't the sound come on as well, in that case?
Frankly, I'm not sure the sound works all the time (though it's probably supposed to...)
David
I thought, but am not sure, that the light didn't flash until
the cord was actually pulled, although the internal piezo
alarm goes off as soon as the cover is lifted.
OK there is a spot in Flushing where it appears there is a rail coming up from the pavement. It is near 39th ave and Prince street. Any ideas?
Trolley tracks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Was this for the old Flushing-Ridgewood trolley?
Um, no, I don't think thye'd have been that line. If my understanding's right, that line was replaced by the B58 bus, renamed Q58 in the late 1980s (since it runs more in Queens than Brooklyn anyway) The B58 runs along 41 Ave or 41 Road and on Sanford Ave in the opposite direction, then along the LIE service road- beyond that point, I don't know.
Unless there was another Flushing-Ridgewood service, I dont think the #58 bus (B or Q) ever went as far north as 39th Ave.
So I wonder what trolley this was. Looking for abandoned and parts of trolley tracks is fun. I wonder what other parts of NYC and LI have trolley tracks remaining. Anywhere have a map of the trolleys in NYC before buses replaced them?
Oh, those are just left over from when they had to run the subway on the street because they didn't have enough money to build tunnels... :)
-Robert King
there is a spot in Flushing where it appears there is a rail coming up from the pavement. It is near 39th ave and Prince street. Any ideas?
An overactive imagination.
There were only three souces for rails in Flushing. The BQ&T Flushing-Ridgewood line, the NY&Q or the LIRR. To the best of my knowledge, none had any tracks at Prince & 39th. Moreover, that street had been rebuilt and repaved since 1948, when the last of these systems gave up.
I just returned from an on site scouting trip. There were only two items that could confused as to being a rail track. There are some Botts Dots along the yellow line on Prince St. These could be confused as the tops of rails protruding over some worn out asphalt.
The second item was in the intersection and could be mistaken for a piece of rail going from 39th Ave and turning right onto Prince. A closer inspection reveals that this is a piece of pressed metal not an extruded rail. One could move this piece by stepping on it and could even lift it out of the apshalt, if one were so inclined. My guess is that it was a piece of molding that fell into the road and was pressed into a semi-molten asphalt patch during one of the hot days last week.
Does anyone know about the new W Line which will replace the B trains in Brooklyn? The posters that state this say "Get ready for major service changes from July 22 to 2004." Strangely, I've only seen them posted on the IRT Flushing Line trains and stations, and most of them were in Spanish.
The W will stop at all former B stations between Pacific St. and Stillwell Av. It will then stop at the Canal, 14, 34, 42, 49 and 57 Streets N/R stations and terminates at the Ditmars Blvd. N station.
On weekends, W will only run in Brooklyn between Stillwell Av and Pacific St.
This info is right out of the pamphlet, "Manhattan Bridge Service Changes" the MTA put out. Hope it answers your question.
Two lines terminating at Ditmars Blvd? Is that necessary? I don't think so. For that reason maybe now they could get the N backto where she realy belongs----57th Street to Stillwell Avenue and let the W become the slow moving local.
The Astoria branch is the more popular branch of the N, it needs the service.
As for making the W the local, I think it's better to make the Q local the local, I've always hated that Brighton has two trains that go to the exact same places.
Some people need to go downtown you know.
we are on the same page there.
Korean and Spanish speaking peoples make up 90% of Flushing line riders these days. These signs are tailored to the dominant nationality of each line's ridership. This is an unfortunate product of our unwillingness to force new immigrants to learn English or be denied basic information.
At Pacific st, all the station maps have been replaced on platform level to the July one. I would bet you a ham sandwich that at this very moment, there is someone scratching their head waiting for the next W to Brooklyn.
Remember how long it's been since the first sighting of the new map on a train, about a week. Now I surmise at leas 1/3 of the B division cars have the new map. I would estimate that the station maps will spread at the same rate.
In 1988, the new maps showing the even more extensive changes appeared in early November. I guess it was done in the hopes people would famaliarize themselves to the vast changes in service by the first full workday of the new service (12/12/88).
It didn't work.
How about putting on all these new maps a sticker that says Not valid until July 22, 2001? Put the year in just in case it's not changed and next June people get confused.
Oh, saw one at Atlantic, foreigner asks "what a W train is" and I explained that this map was invalid until July 22nd. Another more close to home character comes up and asks if the D is still going to Coney Island, and I explained. Another incident I had was when in April a Queens Blvd test was being done to see if the V could run with the G and R. On the V going to Continental on the local I explained to five people that this train doesn't exist yet!!! The people didn't care they just mentioned their destinations. When the V came in to Roosevelt, instead of asking anybody almost everybody going to Elmhurst Ave-67 Ave just felt like holding the doors and maybe that would change the sign or something. I saw the sign explaining the test run the next day at Roosevelt.
Did the NX get decent ridership at all? Was it such a flop that it was right to cancle it after only a few months, or did TA management just not give it a proper chance?
My understanding is that it was a flop from the beginning.
There was a bottleneck at Stillwell Avenue when the NX had to get on/off the Brighton, which delayed it from time to time. When you get right down to it, you really weren't saving any time if the Brighton Express was running up to par.
The route was also kind of weird. If you had to get to Brighton Beach, you had to go through Coney Island first. Coney Island is a terminal, and that was also probably in the back of people's minds.
I've often said, with Chrystie St. service planned during the height of the LSD movement, many of the planners were dropping it liberally. At least that might explain the far-out color scheme that was introduced.
Totally agree.
Remember the RJ?
Nope. Born and killed before I was born.
I remember both the RJ and NX. Never saw or rode on either one of them, though.
The original plan for the "NX" service was to try to alleviate some of the passenger load from the Brighton line (No Joke!!). How? It was meant to offer passengers from Brighton Beach, Ocean Pkwy, W8 and Coney an alternate express route into the City. But like you stated, the bottlenecking at Coney Island contradicted the time-savings. Tony
Gotta picture of one:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r2730/r27nx.jpg
The other problem was that the TA did not order new "NX" signs for the trains. So the NX had N signs, with the right info being given by Conductor and station announcements. This confused many riders.
Uh, look at the picture posted by "R16 Lover."
Side signs.
They finally did install NX side signs, about a week before service was terminated. In the front of the trains, they often had round plastic tiles with NX printed on them hanging by chains from the front of the cars.
The Q (circle only) will begin running on weekends on July 22, a Sunday. It is scheduled to terminate at 57th, presumably on the center tracks.
But that same weekend, and the following two weekends, the R is scheduled (per GO to run via 63rd. The tracks from 63rd connect only to the center tracks at 57th.
The N is running as usual, so the Q won't be able to turn at Lex-60th.
The only option for turning the Q, it seems, is to wrong-rail into Lex-63rd behind the wall or wrong-rail back out -- anything else would place relaying Q's in the path of through R's.
Oh, another option is to have R's in both directions stop on one of the center tracks at 57th, with Q's terminating on the other. Ugly, but it might work.
It might be best to cut the Q back to 42nd on those weekends, but it would be nice if the brand new Q could make it through its first day without being rerouted or short-turned.
Okay, so Jay St. managed to schedule one big GO on top of another big GO on the Bway line, so that they both conflict operationally with each other. Bravo!!
Easiest way to do this is to bring the Q over to the Southbound Express track and turn it there.
You may back up R's coming over from Queens, but it shouldn't be too bad.
It all depends on headways.
I read another post on this site that said weekend R service was not that frequent to begin with. Headways should not really be an issue.
I don't think it'll be that complicated to turn trains at 57th on the weekends. You get the southbound R out of the way before switching over the northbound Q. Then get the now southbound Q out of the way before the next southbound R.
It all works in theory...............
They will probably terminate the Q at 42nd or 34th.
Here's what they'll do (they've done stuff like this in the past). The R is getting in the way? Cut it to a 4th ave shuttle. Don't complain yet, now the Q gets to go to 71/Continental. Slants and R-68s on Queens Blvd!
I doubt it. Remember, this is the first day of the new Q service. Would it run express (and leave the N swamped) or would it run local (and mess up a nice, brand new express service)?
My guess is that the Q will be truncated to 42. Just a guess.
I hope this is clarified before the big date. I'm sure many of us will be planning on riding the new Q from beginning to end, but that might be difficult if we can't find the beginning. (I'll probably go out to Queens on the F and come back in on the R, anyway, so I'll keep an eye out at 57 and stay on to 42 if I don't see anything promising.)
I'm going to do the new Q and W on Sunday, and the first new W out of Astoria on Monday (unless it's before 6 AM).
Here's my plan for July 22 (from 86 on the 1/9):
1 to 59
D to 34 (see how many people willingly get off)
F to B-L (watch chaos at W4 and B-L)
F back up into Queens ***
[*** Assuming the F is running local, what's the first point I can backtrack without paying another fare? Not 36, that much I know. If the F is express, I'll use Roosevelt.]
R to 57 or 34
Q to Atlantic
W to Stillwell
Q to 42
1 to 86
(Q-W-Q loop subject to reversal if the northbound W is running express on the Sea Beach.)
Since I'm sure many of us will come up with similar itineraries, we should set up a meeting time/place as the big date approaches (only two weeks to go!).
I also plan on riding the entire W (and diamond-Q) on Monday, but not the very first one.
You can backtrack at Steinway, but it ain't running local.
If you do end up at Steinway, use the 24hour mezzanine (front of east[north]bound train) to cross over. The annunciator is one of the neat new ones with the "submarine dive" sound whenever the train is approaching.
It would be very nice if Sunday, July 22nd, the first train I see when I walk downstairs at 63rd drive is a Q, ready to take me across the bridge, which is why I thought of that alternative. The N would be able to handle Broadway local alone.
What I recently heard (forgot where at the moment) was that there would be a "moratorium" on G.O.s for the first week (or was it month?) To get people used to the new changes. Perhaps this GO has been cancelled.
That would be a good idea. I hope you're right.
The only problem is that weekend and night service through 63rd is via GO only. Something needs to run there, and unless the new S is going to run at all times (for the first week, at least), the F, R, or Q is going to have to fill the role.
The Queensbridge Shuttle is a picked job 24/7.
Corrections and additions welcome. With thanks to the anonymous locals who told me most of this information when I was sitting about in Deshler for two hours and not see a single train (due to an unfortunate track blockage -- connected with an earlier fracture of the Deshler diamond*).
Deshler is a railroad town in northwestern Ohio where the ex-B&O mainline to Chicago crosses a B&O mainline from Cincinnati, Dayton, and Lima to Toledo. This diamond was known as "The Crossroads of the B&O" in the olden days as it was the place in Ohio where B&O tracks crossed each other at grade.
Today, the E/W line is CSX's mainline to Chicago from Cleveland, and the route taken by the Amtrak Three Rivers on the approach to Chicago. This line was recently re-doubled following the Conrail acquisition, since traffic formerly travelled by the Conrail Chicago Line (ex NYC main) to CSX-served destinations is now switched onto the B&O main beyond Cleveland. Apparently, the line was singled as recently as the 70's by the ailing Chessie System. The routeing of the ex B&O main was: Canton-Rittman-Willard-Tiffin-Fostoria-Deshler-Defiance-Auburn(IN)-Nappannee-Chicago. (Corrections welcome).
The Cincinnati line had become very little used, and is still signalled using direct train control (DTC) where B&O-style signals may still be seen on the approach to the diamond on either side. The line is single track on either side of Deshler. Between Toledo and Deshler, most of the traffic to and from Cincinnati is diverted through the C&O line to Toledo as it gave better access to the yards in Toledo and avoided the use of terminal railroads in the city. To access the C&O line, northbound traffic turns east using the Deshler wye (about 15mph or so) and turns north again in North Baltimore(?) to reach Toledo.
At Deshler town itself, by the diamond on the opposite side of the station, there is a park where railfanning is legit. You can also camp at the park for a nominal fee if you are the camping type. The interlocking tower is now a train order office which never seems to open; the station is a boarded up MoW hut (probably), with lots of spare signal and track kit lying about outside.
West of Deshler, there is an interlocking with a full crossover at MP 67.5 approx (CSX apparently calls this area their 'BI' division). The relay room at this interlocking is marked "Deshler A House" whilst the one in town is marked "Deshler B House" which suggests that a long siding (about 6 or 7 miles long) exists between the two points. Near the Deshler A interlocking, there is a nice stretch of straight level track with literally miles of visibility both east and westwards, and an ungated grade crossing bang in the middle. The crossing is at BI MP 66.55 according to CSX, should be easily found if you drove along U.S. 18. west of Deshler. The U.S. 18 runs next to the track for about 4 miles prior to turning northwards for 0.5 miles, then continuing westwards. The grade crossing is beyond the zig-zag on a southbound side-road.
Notable sightings (no numbers, since my film isn't yet developed):
07/06 approx. 6pm -- BNSF warbonnet GE + two BN units + train (Deshler town)
07/06 approx. 9pm -- WCTC 2x SD-45 + unit coal train (MP 67.3)
07/07 9.10am -- LMSX ex CR GE Dash-8's, second in consist. (MP 66.7)
07/07 9.45am -- Primer SD-40 leading + CSX widecab trailing +
general merchandise train (MP 66.7)
07/07 10.25am -- Conrail Quality NYC 7368 + CSX widecab trailing +
double stack intermodal train
I was up at 5.30am to see the Amtrak; it was nowhere to be found -- I guess Amtrak is having a good day and passed Fostoria as advertised.
The traffic on this line is a good mix of CSX intermodals (piggybacks, double-stacks), general merchandise, auto racks, unit coal, and locals. BNSF has through-running agreement with CSX, but a variety of motive power from other lines are also seen: amongst them Conrail, Wisconsin Central(!), Canadian Pacific. There are also some weird looking lease power around, for example LMSX, FURX. A likely explanation for the appearance of WCTC power would be that they are being used in place of CN motive power -- it is otherwise difficult to understand why WCTC power is being used to haul unit coal trains in Deshler. If the words of a local railfan is to be believed, WCTC power is seen on a not-infrequent basis approaching the CSX main at Deshler from the Cincinnati direction, turns westbound on the wye, then proceeding along the mainline. The LMSX GE's are obviously the pool returned to the lessor from Conrail following the acquisition (and were quickly snapped up by CSX); the FURX power (painted in a lime-green, grey and white scheme) indicates that CSX is probably short on power and has more business than it can handle at present. Does anyone know any more details -- are there any CSX power being laid up somewhere not doing anything?
Lexcie
* Deshler diamond fractured on the morning of July 6; it was due for replacement during this year, the new diamond was already on site, so the MoW gang apparently removed bits from the new diamond to mend the old. The real problem, of course, was that the foundation beneath the diamond was not secure, as a result the diamond bent out of shape more than it should have with each passing car.
Haven't been here for quite awhile. There was someone here familiar with WMATA a while back. The fam and I are planning to drive (sorry) down to DC on a Friday and stay four days. Are there any METRO stations wheer you can easily park on a weekend?. I understand all but the far outlying station lots become packed early on weekdays.
I won't do that if I was you. What you should do is find out where you staying and find out what bus route you nearby to get you to the Metrorail Station.
Parking in the WMATA lots on the Orange Line from Falls Church to Vienna, the Red Line from Silver Springs to Wheaton or from White Flint to Shady Grove or the Blue or Yellow lines south of National Airport shouldn't be very hard on weekends. Weekdays...that's another (very long and frustrating) story.
info helps---thanks
Back when my daughter lived on F Street (before her recent move to the 'burbs) I would stay in a hotel near the New Carrollton metro station - plenty of parking there. Glenmont station, near her home now, also has plenty of parking on the weekends - but you better be there by 0715 during the week.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info---still planning the trip--------not much fun
I live in the Washington metropolitan area and can answer the question. Parking is free on the weekends at subway stations. However, because it's summer and school is out, the lots might be crowded but not filled to capacity. I live near the New Carrollton Metro and it's NEVER a problem to get a spot on the weekend. Weekday is another matter.
Metro's webpage is www.wmata.com Click on the ride guide to find the route that services the address you're leaving from to the nearest station.
I suggest that you stay at the Ramada Inn, New Carrollton, MD (301) 459-6700. It's right off I-95 Exit 20B. They have a courtesy van that takes guests to the subway station (3.5 minutes by van, 10 minute walk.
Let me know if you want more info.
Michael
We decided to do that (Not at the Ramada) but we are staying in Alexandria, and there is a shuttle to the Metro. Thanks for the info. I was tryimg to economize initially, and was looking for a reasonable rate for a family of 5---somewhere near a Metro stop. We just decided to go for a little more, and that opened up some possibilites.
Hi.
I got a Question that what rail line do the Push-Pull Cars run on? Do they run on R3 and R7? Thanks.
I've seen push-pulls on the Trenton local (R7).
At what time you saw it? BUT I asking what routes they mainly run on and how often on the R3 and R7 they run the Push Pulls?
Between 7 AM and 10 AM on a weekday at Frankford Junction all R7 Trenton locals that I saw were push-pulls.
The push-pulls mainly run on the R5 (both sides). The R2 Warminster has at least one. The R7 Trenton that leaves Philly at around 4:50 PM on weekdays is almost always push-pull. Coincidentally, it is one of the few R-7 departures that does not comfortably meet an NJT train.
For some reason those on R3 West Trenton were withdrawn in late April, but they're supposed to return. Don't look for any push-pulls outside of the peak hours - one of the few places you'll find them midday is on the storage tracks in Suburban Station.
There's an R5 I usually see daily going into 30th St about 5:15 that consistently runs the push-pulls. There are no schedule notations as to what equipment is used on which runs.
Thanks.
Now are the Push Pulls are on the R5 that's only running from Ambler to Dolyestown also? And even doing Midday and Weekends the R5 would run them?
i know that on last saturday i seen a push pull on the r5 p.
The Staten Island Yankees should get together with the Staten Island Ferry to coordinate their schedules and possibly add one or two post game boats (the same way you see extra #4 and #7 trains on their respective els waiting for Met & Yankee games to end). Heres why:
Yesterday I decided to take my little one Arthur (just shy of 5 yrs old) to the S.I. Yankee game against the Lowell Spinners. Lowell Spinners??? Going there was a breeze. We parked at Mineola Station and just made a train that was waiting for us. Taking the LIRR to Flatbush Av we caught the #4 and took it the 3 stops to Bowling Green where we caught the ferry. (could've used the 'ol Bowling Gr-S. Ferry shuttle!!!) At St George its just a short 5 minute walk to the stadium which is absolutely beautiful with a great view of the Statue of Liberty & the Lower Manhatten skyline behind center field. They put on a great show with plenty of activities between each inning and we had a great time!! O.K. here's the rub:
The game ended at about 11:00 and walking to the ferry terminal we heard the air horn of a departing ferry at about 11:05. Not to worry I thought, they have to put on extra boats after the game. After all, their program and website both tout the ferry as a great way to get there. Well, getting there at about 11:10 we found out they run every hour on the hour and the next boat was at midnight. The terminal was crowded with alot of fans from the game. It was easy to tell who they were as they gave out free pennants and alot of people were carrying them. After waiting at the dreary St George terminal for almost an hour we finally boarded at exactly midnight and the boat left at approx. 12:10 (10 min late) Getting to S Ferry at approx 12:30 I was praying we could get a 1/9 train to Penn to make the 1;08 Huntington Train. We made it to Penn at 12:55 so we had 13 minutes to spare. Getting to Mineola at about 1:50 we got home after 2, which meant it too us over 3 hrs to go about 35 miles!!! I should've drove!!! They actually awarded a prize to the dirtiest car in the parking lot which I would have definitely won. But I shouldn't complain. Where else could you get a midnight cruise past the Statue of Liberty absoutely FREE??? In Lake George a midnight cruise is about $30 per person and doesn't pass Miss Liberty!!!The funny thing is Arthur was up at 8 this morning watching his Sunday morning cartoons as if he had a full night sleep!!!
One advantage to riding the subway late at night is you can get the cleanest cars in the system. I came back from an NJ meeting and hopped on an A train at the GW Bridge stop. It was Spic and Span - the smell of cleaner still in the air. The floor was mopped, the windows were clean - riding was its own reward.
>>> Where else could you get a midnight cruise past the Statue of Liberty absoutely FREE??? <<<
I guess I have to envy you, back in the day when I would take a date on that cruise it would cost me 10˘ each way for the two of us.
Tom
I think you should have wrote a letter to whoever runs the SI Ferry that they did not add Extra Boats after the game at 11:00 PM.
Rudy runs the ferry.
You should have checked the NYCDOT website and SI Ferry schedule before you went to the game.
First off, a single Barberi class boat can hold more people than the new stadium so that holding only a single boat would be sufficient.
Boats run half hourly on weeknights. On weekends hourly service begins at 7 PM. However, on nights that the SI Yankees are playing they continue to run boats on the half hour until 10:30 PM.
They obviously extended the crew's tour from 8 hours to 12 hour for this extra service. Laws prohibit them from extending a tour of duty any longer.
They would have required a complete new crew for a full 8 hour shift to provide a single extra run at 11:30 PM. A better solution would be for the SI Yankees to start their games sufficiently early so as to insure that the games end well before 11 PM. They could also make a PA announcement for the reduced weekend schedule, if there is danger of people having to wait an hour for the next boat out.
Of course you or the SI Yankees could have chartered a SI Ferry boat for around $18,000 for an 8 hour shift. How many people did they say were at that stadium that night? What would that have done to the ticket price? :-)
Typical govt BS. How much to charter a NY Waterways boat?
Sorry about the link to the website. The correct url is http://www.siyanks.com
But you can't buy tix's there. At least for Brooklyn Cyclones you can by tix on the web and pick them up at WILL CALL for the great extra price of $1 per tix. Not like Ticketmaster at all!!
Yeah. But then you see the difference in the concession prices between the SI and Brooklyn teams. $3.50 hot dog at Brooklyn, $1.75 at SI.
-Hank
My opinion of those SI ferries is they are not too good. Lately they've always been running late. Last time I had a Kennedy class boat that was running 15 minutes late. The ones that carry cars seem to run late, since it takes longer to load/unload.
Personally I don't think the SI Ferry should carry cars, there should only be passenger boats. New higher speed PASSENGER ferries should be purchased with more frequent service. As far as lost revenue goes I think there should be $1.50 charge for the ferry (Metrocards accepted). Also lots of camera toting tourists take the ferry for pictures. A fare may deter some of them from taking up space.
Why hasn't the SI Ferry policy been changed? Why do they still carry cars?
Why do they still carry cars?
Why do you still hate cars?
I don't think the loading & unloading of cars hurt the schedule any, they most probably factor it into the schedule. As far as camera toting tourists are concerned there is very little differences between tourists and railfans, (or in this case ferryfans) both are there for the ride, not to get somewhere. When I was a medallion cab driver in the 70's I used to recommend the Staten Island ferry to tourists.
Getting back to my original post, I must add with 3 minor league teams in the metropolitan area, the LI Ducks, Bklyn Cyclones, & the S.I. Yankees, it will be a cold day in hell before I spend a fortune watching overrated millionaire crybabies at Yankee or Shea Stadiums!!!
We forget that rush hour schedule with all the boats in service is a 15 min headway. They can run the boats faster but non-rush hour they keep them under top speed. The crossing can be done in 20 minutes. Even with the orginal post saying he left 10 minutes late the boat arrived only 5 minutes behind schedule and wasn't late if we go with the MTA 6 minute rule >Hahaha<.
Loading the cars does not take that long unless there is a problem with one of the "passangers" and they keep a tow truck at each end to clear up that problem.
Hour service only has ONE BOAT running, you can't hold up that boat >G<.
If you want to complain about the Ferry schedule, you need to complain at the NYC Dept of Transportation - they are in charge of the SI Ferry. As a word to the wise, though: you will not have any luck. SI residents have been trying for years to have ferry service increased to half-hour headways on weekend evenings (and mornings) until at least 12:30am with no luck.
Parking by the field will cost you $6.00 (if you're early enough, there is street parking that can be had for free). Of course, the traffic heading to SI will add at least 30 minutes to the trip. In the future, you might find it easier to drive into Manhattan, take the car to SI by way of the ferry ($3.00) and drive home over the V-N Bridge.
$6? When were you there last? The fee is $3. Commuter parking is $6. Brooklyn charges $10!* That's more than the cost at SHEA!
-Hank
*The $10 charge applies if you arrive more than 1 hour prior to the game. Beachgoers get a $6 refund if they leave before the 7th inning. If you arrive 1 hour or less prior to the game, parking is $4.
-Hank
Have never driven to SI Yankees game. All the signs say $6.00; I just assumed that was the going rate for game parking.
Yesterday I decided to take my little one Arthur (just shy of 5 yrs old) to the S.I. Yankee game against the Lowell Spinners. Lowell Spinners???
Presumably, a tribute to Lowell's once-mighty textile industry, which was one of the very first large-scale industries in the United States back in the first half of the 19th Century, but largely succumbed to Southern and foreign competition after World War II.
. . . but largely succumbed to Southern and foreign competition after World War II.
Not exactly. They largely succumbed to the unions, which insisted that they pay their workers more than they were worth. As a result many of the same mill owners closed their New England operations and built new plants in the South, where they stayed until the unions caught up to them. At that point they did the same thing all over again.
[Lowell's textile industry]
. . . but largely succumbed to Southern and foreign competition after World War II.
Not exactly. They largely succumbed to the unions, which insisted that they pay their workers more than they were worth. As a result many of the same mill owners closed their New England operations and built new plants in the South, where they stayed until the unions caught up to them. At that point they did the same thing all over again.
That's quite true, thanks for pointing it out.
One other factor that weakened the Northeast's manufacturing sector was the tendency of too many factory owners to cash-cow their operations without regard to the future. When the going was good, which in many cases was all the way up to the 1960's (but not textiles, that weakened earlier), many companies made inadequate efforts to modernize their facilities and practices, choosing instead to pay high dividends. By the time they realized that their factories were obsolete (e.g. the multistory brick buildings seen in many New England cities), it was too late.
Query: could this live-for-the-present, ignore-the-future mindset have been behind the decline and fall of some of the nation's railcar manufacturers, such as St. Louis Car and Budd?
Probably not, but it's definately behind the 'dot-com' business failures. Forget profit, let's build image now!
-Hank
Sarge,
Do you and Arthur tend to visit the SI Yanks when they play the Brooklyn Cyclones in Coney ?
LIRR to Flatbush and the (D) to Stillwell, no ferry ! If you go, send my regards to Newkirk Ave !
Bill "Newkirk"
How are the Brooklyn Cyclones doing anyway? I don't want to hear about those damn little Yankees anway. Is Coney Island being helped by a baseball team in the area? I hope so. Anything to being Coney Island back.
Fred,
The Cyclones just beat the Vermont Expos tonight 4-1. They said they are on a 5 game winning streak.
On the first home game, attendees were interviewed on camera. A lot of old Brooklyn Dodger fans emerged from a 40 year hibernation. Even Gil Hodges wife was part of the color commentary team who spoke of the Dodgers and Ebbets Field in volumes ! I'd rather watch these young hungry up and coming baseball stars rather than the spoiled crybaby millionaires.
It seems Coney Island will return from the ashes as the Cyclones heat up. They even mentioned tonight that Keyspan Park is easy to get there being served by four subway lines.
OH MY GOD !!! Do they know about Stillwell Terminal and the eventual shutdown ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Caught this on Ch.70 Cablevision Nassau County
Thanks Bill. That is a great piece of news. Go Brooklyn.
ARE the Brooklyn Cyclones and the Staten Island Yankees scheduled to play each other? I thought the two teams were not at the same level and therefore wouldn't.
They're both A.
If they're not scheduled to play, there should be an exhibition Verazanno series.
They play each other 7/24, 7/25 8/13 8/14 8/17 8/18
Most of the games is one day home, one away.
They play home-and-home 3 times, for 6 total games. The teams are in the same division or short-season class-A, basically right above rookie league. They also play home-and-home with New Jersey and Hudson Valley. From here, you either go on to AA, or find another line of work. I'll be in the press box or the photo box for at least the 7/14-7/15 games.
-Hank
Is there a class lower than short season A ball? I thought that was what was at one time known as Rookie League. And why the late start if this is not the first stop from kids coming out of high school (starting in late June to let the kids finish high school
They're both in the half-season Class A New York-Penn League.
They play home-and-home series (odd for any level of baseball)
July 14(SI) & 15(B); July 24(SI) & 25(B); Aug. 13(B) & 14(SI); and
Aug. 17(B) & 18(SI).
Chicago Tribune Article
What they fail to mention in the article is that electrification would solve all their ills!
-- David
Chicago, IL
"...electrification would solve all their ills!"
Needless to say, Ravinia Park enjoyed fast, frequent, quiet, non-polluting electric trains on the Shore Line Route of the North Shore Line until the summer of 1955. Service operated from the Loop with several North Side stops on the "L" directly to Ravinia. Such is "progress."
That was a funny picture, the composer with his ear on the rail. Getting inspiration from an unusual source?
I made a couple of visits as a child to a now-deceased uncle who lived in Ravinia, must be over 30 ears ago (yikes, time sure flies!) I didn't ride any trains, that was long before my railfan days, but I was intrigued by the sight of the double-deckers cars, never having seen anything like that before. Ravinia certainly was a nice area.
Could you please re post the Lines and where each is shopped? I tried to find your old post but no luck. Confused as to R68s/R68As shopped at Concourse and Coney Island, R46s at Stillwell/Jamaica.
Thanks!
At the moment:
A: 207th Street & Pitkin
B: Coney Island
C/Rockaway Shuttle: 207th Street & Pitkin
D: Concourse
E: Jamaica
F: Jamaica
G: Jamaica
J/Z: East New York
L: East New York
M: East New York
N: Coney Island
Q: Coney Island
R: Jamaica
Franklin Shuttle: Coney Island
Post-July 21: still in flux
#1/#9: 240th Street
#2: 239th Street
#3/42nd Street Shuttle: Livonia
#4: Woodlawn
#5: E. 180th Street
#6: Pelham
#7: Corona
David
Check out the article on mag-lev trains and engineering in the Friday 7/6/01 USA Today, Page 1B.
The print edition has diagrams and pictures.
>>>
Magnetic train vows super speed
U.S. cities feel the attraction of the levitating locomotive
By Steven Komarow
USA TODAY
LATHEN, Germany -- German industry has spent more than 16 years and hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a dream train that floats on a magnetic field and zooms at 250 miles per hour, more quietly than trains half its speed.
For about $20 -- plus travel costs to this rural town in Northwest Germany -- you can even climb aboard and take a test ride.
But one of these days, you may not need to go so far. More than half a century after the idea was patented, magnetic levitation may come to a transportation corridor near you. While critics say it's still too expensive and impractical, lots of people -- including many in the USA -- see ''mag-lev'' as the answer to overcrowded roads and skies. . . .
<<<
Continues at:
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010706/3461946s.htm
I have a question that probably will sound stupid but here goes anyway. With the flip flop on the Manhattan bridge why must they split the B & D trains at 34th street? On a different note when the new train control center goes on line will they still need the Master Towers?
Clarify the first part of your question. What do you mean by splitting the B & D service?
I thought you had to transfer at 34th st coming from the Bronx to continue to Brooklyn. The B would become the W and D the Q local. Am I right up to this point.
Not entirely. The W and Qs will be on seperate platforms at 34 Street from the B and D. And the W and Qs will take a different route to Brooklyn then taken today.
The B & D will terminate on 6th Ave at 34th St. The Q & W will be running on the B'Way Line.
And the Sea Beach is still being screwed because it doesn't go over the Manny B, right Dude? A bummer.
They must make Bronx/Upper Manhattan passengers transfer to a Downtown/Brooklyn train on 34th because the part of the bridge the B/D use connects to 6th Ave only and is under construction. There is no way to change to the other side just before going on. Therefore, in order to provide Brighton/West End service there has to be another couple of lines that start on the line that connects to the part of the bridge that will be working {hopefully} for the next 3 years.
[With the flip-flop on the Manhattan Bridge, why must they split the B & D trains at 34th Street?]
It's not really a "split at 34th Street" as much as a "split into two sections, with transfers at 34th Street." Trains to/from Uptown will continue to use 6th Avenue, while trains to/from Brooklyn will be forced to use Broadway. The only transfer point between the 6th Avenue and Broadway Lines is at 34th Street.
The first time that pattern was in effect (in the mid-1980s), everything kept its original letter, with the Brooklyn-to-Broadway trains in yellow. That meant two B's and two D's, which confused everybody. As a result, it was decided this time around to assign different letters to the Broadway Line services - "W" for West End and "Q" for Brighton.
When I drove to my friends' in West Philly on the 4th of July, I
noticed that the new El station entrance at 63rd St. is nearing
completion. It appears to be very similar to the station entrances
on the Frankford portion of the MFL, in which the stairways are
fully enclosed in a building, and a walkway connecting the building
to the platform. It appears that the 63rd St. Station will be the
first to be completed.
Are there any links where I can view sketches/renditions of what the
new West Philly El will look like when it's completed???
When are they going to start on the el structure itself?
Plans are to remake the West Philly portion of the El to a new elevated design. Single T-Bent supports will replace the standard two leg-row bridge, which will make things easer (and safer) for auto traffic under the El.
SEPTA has sketches of this in their annual capitol report for 2000-2001. You can obtain a copy of this document by writing SEPTA at 1234 Market Street, Phil PA 19107
The Metro of 7/5 carried an interesting piece on the new signal system building at 52nd and 63rd and had a small rendering of the new 63rd St station.
The contract for the column foundations and 'stubs' has been advertised for bid opening in August. That makes two contracts for the 'new El' out on the street.
This test was conducted by Car and Driver, in the Aug 01 issue. I was expecting a report that gave bias toward the car, however for the most part it was done quite fairly.
The results, time from door to door, total cost door to door:
1. Plane (US Airways): 3:27, $181
2. Train (Acela): 3:31, $158
3. Car (Honda Insight): 3:59, $107
4. Bus (Greyhound): 5:44, $60
They should be commended for giving the actual cost of driving. The $107 included $0.36 a mile, which accounts for depreiation, insurance, maintaince, etc. They could have easily just reported the upfront cost of just $24 (gas).
One gripe I have is that no matter what the mode of transport was, they used taxis to get to their final destination. If the subway was used, the cost would have been cheaper.
They concluded the article with that there was no clear winner. The greyhound polluted the less per capita, while the plane was the most. There were other reasons, including comfort during the journey that made choosing a winner hard.
They ended the article with a quote that I hardly expected them to say:
And so, it seems, the plane verus train debate will continue over distances of 300 or fewer miles, at least until Amtrak is able to expand much needed funds to upgrade its road beds and elevate the Acela to its full speed potential. A shift of passengers to the railroad would relieve the almost intolerable crowding of airports and urban highways. That would be good news for all of us, regardless of how we travel.
That's very interesting. The quote is significant.
I would further posit that use of the subway would also have shaved some time off the trip - eg the train would have beaten the plane depending on the destination.
Also, a real contest would have 50 or 100 trips, comparing the averages at the end.
Amtrak needs to consistently have an express track clear of commuter trains; a second tunnel into Penn from Jersey and two more tracks in the Washington area would be helpful too.
Also, a real contest would have 50 or 100 trips, comparing the averages at the end.
That's definitely the best way to do it. Each mode of transport always has their good days and their bad days, doing it that many times would even that out.
If you look at the above message, it was EDITED from its original version. I also intend to fix the problem with the unclosed HTML, and it will be available in that same message.
Must be using javascript - the previous message had nothing in it visible in HTML. Many of us don't allow javascript since it's the largest single carrier of worm viruses. You can always add "NOSCRIPT" tags that will show only for those NOT using javascript such as "you need javascript to view this" or such. But I still won't turn it on myself. Just figured letting you know about this might be helpful.
I did use NOSCRIPT in the very first ATLAS message.
However the entire point of ATLAS is to save me work. There won't be NOSCRIPT tags until I write the system to post automatically. That won't happen until those bastards at Network Solutions finally update my domain data.
Until then, you can just use the subject.
Ah well ... just figured I'd let you know since the message here came up with absolutely nothing in the message body. When I first saw it, thought there'd be a message following it that had anything but the title. Had I not done a "view source" I woulda never known. Whoops.
I didn't see anything either, and I even have JavaScript enabled.
Ah, well. Such is life when dealing with nonstandard features. I'll take platform-independent HTML any day.
What browser are you using?
Internet Explorer 5.00.2614.3500. On a plain jane Windows 98 machine.
(With plain old HTML there's no need to ask that question.)
I can only offer one explanation: It's not your browser, the connection was down at the time you tried to view it (that happened to me once).
Then the connection is down right now as well. I just went back and looked again.
Today is not Saturday, I assume this is why I'm seeing nothing?
On a related note: I attempted to use a Javascript signature at the end of my messages, but apparantly Geocities is also blocking remote script loading. I never posted these messages, I previewed them, saw nothing, and removed the line.
Does NBCi allow remote script loading? I attempted a remote image load but I got the XOOM logo instead (I don't have an account there yet so I can't test).
Today is not Saturday, I assume this is why I'm seeing nothing?
Then why would I post that it was modified?
Are you getting any script errors?
No script error, I know it's loading (or attempting to load) the script because it takes forever to load past the message area. I guess it's just me and David J. having the problem.
Could it be a problem with my security settings? Thanks to some screwed up IE5.5 installation I am eternally plagued with "Your current security settings prohibit you from downloading certain Active X content"..., I several times have set the security to "NONE" and still got the message, so there may be other things blocked as well with no error message. Flash doesn't work either.
But other JavaScript works fine!
on 7/26 took the seabeach from coney island for the first time in 35 years. at the 18th ave. station, an in-service B [with passengers] passed us on the express track. it then waited for us to pass just before the tunnel to the 59th street station. is this usual for the B to use these tracks?
thanks
The West End is getting resignalled, so they send the B in one direction over the Sea Beach express on weekends and some middays.
Got to operate one of the rerouted B's over the express track Thurs! (First the F exp. then the B via NX! This is a gret time to be posting!)
is the f expressing in brooklyn again?
This week, nights. Last week, it was Mon & Tues. midday. (this was extended from the week before)
thanks
is the freight line that runs alongside the N tracks around Ft. Hamilton parkway still in operation?
thanks
Yep, it's the Bay Ridge Branch of the NY&A. Not used all that frequently, though.
That line used to be under catenary. New Haven RR ex-Virginian Freight motors were the workhorses of the line, but on occasion I did see a covered wagon ( that is an F7 or an F9 diesel electric ) or sometims a LIRR ALCO Century at work, and the local set outs were handled by LIRR switchers. Years ago the line had four tracks, now it is down to one, with an occasional passing siding, not counting sidings for customers. If a tunnel connecting the Brooklyn waterfront with Staten Island or New Jersey becomes reality, the line will get a real boost. There seems to be a lot of work going on along the line's ROW in Queens, along the BQE. What gives?
thanks. i remember the active freights in the 60s and was shocked to see how disused it looked now.
The portion through queens around the BQE is being realigned as part of widening the BQE. This part of the line, over the hell gate bridge, sees a good amount of frieght: 3 weekly CP rail, 2 weekly P&W ballast trains, and the daily weekday CSX run from oak point. You can usually catch 4 freights on a friday: the CSX round trip in the morning, P&W heading up to new haven (also in the AM, both usually around 9 or 10 am) and the CP rail run later (around 5pm).
CSX & CP both use sd40-2's, while p&w uses all sorts of U23, B23, and 'new' B30-7 cabless units still in BN green. It all sure beats the drab days of CR when there was one round trip (plus P&W later) consisting of B23-7s for about 10 years straight...
Thanks! Now this is what I was looking for - some idea as to when I could get some photos of a freight train on an active line. How did you get this information anyway? If the Queens section is so active, what happened to Brooklyn? The line there looks desolate - weeds growing on the tracks, rusty rail ( probably shelled ), junk on the ROW. Does the yard where the NY and Atlantic is based at in Middle Village, Queens have something to do with that, in that traffic is mostly from there to points north, with very little going to Brooklyn?
Percisely - it all stops at fresh pond jct. - the NYA yard in middle village. From there NY&A drags the trains out to LI or into LIC & BUshwick.
I think there's one or 2 customers along the line in brooklyn (including R142s delieverd to a connection with the MTA (I forget the name of the yard there), but it's 'primary' use is to connect with the cross harbor RR down in bay ridge. CP rail (working with NYA) got the rights to use the old 65th street yard there (it's owned by the city), and they have plans to do something big with it (lots of transloading, though it's rumored they might 'get nautical' and open some sort of car float operation to staten island). So whenever service starts for that (sometime in the next year, i'd hope) traffic should pick up a bit more on the line. Apparently the track condition isn't that good, so it's unlikely, at least at first, that CP's SD's will run past fresh pond.
I know a bit of this from reading the NY state rail forum at: http://www.railroad.net/forums/nyrail/ - though some of it is simply because i live pretty close to the hell gate.
Summertime fridays are generally the best time, since the P&W is seasonal, and the days are long enough to get shots of the CP leaving town. (they arrive around 4 or 5 AM- M,W, F - it should become a 5 day a week schedule once service to 65th street starts).
The place in Brooklyn is the Linden shops. That is a relatively new facility built by the MTA to serve A division cars from the New Lots line and B division cars from the Canarsie and Jamaica ( eastern division ) lines. There is a connection from both divisions to the facility which is along the ROW of the old NY Connecting Railroad, now known as teh NY & Atlantic. At one time I thought that there would be a direct connection between the subways and a class one railroad line so that carfloats would no longer be needed, but that connection was severed - the remains of it can be seen on the Canarsie line right of way. A rail tunnel for frieght from Brooklyn to Staten Island has been talked up in the news lately, am I hope that this comes into reality sometime soon.
Carfloats? What are carfloats?
Carfloats? What are carfloats?
Barges that carry railroad cars.
Thank you. Should have known that one!
Click here for some carfloat (and other) pictures.
Thank you. Very nice!
Most of the freight in the NY&A yard (located in Glendale) comes up from the Brooklyn Waterfront via interchagning with New York Cross Harbor RR. Other deliveries come from the north (Canada/New England) via Hell Gate with CP, P&W or CSX making the moves. Most of these are done in the early morning hours on Thursdays and/or Fridays.
BMTman
I take it that I would need to obtain a scanner in order to find out when the train moves will be made? I would like to be able to get some pictures of the trains with out running into problems with the police for loitering or something like that. Would I have to tell them first so that they will not get the wrong idea and haul me in?
A)scanners help. oak point dispatcher is on 161.070. anyone know about NY&A?
B) Check that other post i made somewhere in this thread for times over the hellgate (posted it yesterday or the day before...). it's a pretty regular schedule. south of fresh pond is (if i recall right) also switched out on a somewhat regular schedule (same time of day, give or take an hour), though i forget when... anyone?
C)ticket? for loitering? in NYC? that'd be like getting a ticket for jail walking. Figgitaboutit.
most from brooklyn?
I'm not as familiar with the south end of the line, but so far's i know cross harbor doesn't move much these days - maybe a dozen or so cars to NY&A. CSX is good for 20-50 per day, CP's 3 runs per week seem to be a hit or miss with 5-25, and P&W's unit trains (so far's i know) are usually around 40 cars...
I recall a few times back in the days of CR when they dragged out 90-100 cars with 6 units.
cross harbor will get a nice shot in the arm though with the floating our of the redbirds.
You'd be surprised at how busy NYCH can be during the day.
Most railfans who work weekdays cannot appreciate the street-running ops of Cross Harbor unless they experience it for themselves....if you can get a day off from work -- especially on a Wednesday or Friday -- go down to NYCH's Bush Terminal yards EARLY in the day (i.e. before 11am) and you will not be disappointed at the moves you'll likely see them doing between the 50th Street float bridge and the Brooklyn Army Terminal as they deliver to the NY&A facility at the 65th Street Yard.
BMTman
dumb question. what does the 'a' stand for in ny & a? thanks
New York & Atlantic Railway
Today while waiting for the shuttle bus at COurt Square I saw mnay redbirds with Yellow tape (Pelham) on the 7. After finishing up for the day I changed for the 7 at 74/Roosevelt and again saw many Pelham Redbirds on the 7. Sorry- did not get car numbers.
Could you see the window design to tell if they were Pelham World's Fair Redbirds (making one last trip home before dying), or if they were mainline R-36 and/or R-29?
i think the cars coming from pelham are almost all r33's
Today at Brooklyn Bridge I saw both World's Fair and Mainline redbirds on the 6.
You can't distinguish ALL of the Redbird trains by their windows designs, although it is often a helpful hint, because the R26,27,28,29,33/36 all are similar and all of those class types have only two different window designs.
For other helpful hints, observe the floor of the train, if it is a solid periwinkle color, or a red orange and a beige color pattern.
Also, observe how the radiator, or axiflow fans are mounted. R33's have the fans exposed, and the R36's have them covered with the emergency incandescent light in the center of it.
(Please correct me if I'm mixed up.)
The floor design and the axiflow fans are relative to the class type (R33 or 36).
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
The little light in the middle of the axelflows were on the first AC units installed on the Redbirds, back in 1978-79. Since they went from newest trains to oldest with the AC installations on the married pairs, the R-33/36s got them first (along with the orange-and-tan interior repaiting), while the R-26/28s were the last to get retrofitted, and those units came sans center light.
from the Boston herald
and
The Boston Globe
This is something that Amtrak is going to have to get on top of. Does the ROW need additional retaining walls to keep the rocks out? And maybe Amtrak needs to help MTA speed up its catenary replacement project.
Went poking around crooklyn today - and was wondering if anyone here knew more about:
A)The old Q cars (?) that have been lingering in the scrap yard area. I recall seeing them down there last year, painting in peeling, graffiti coated maintance yellow. Since they're rebuilding the scrap yard for the redbird influx, the 3 have been towed back near the junction with the B line. Anyone know what lines they served on (primarily elevadeds?), when bought (1938?), retired from revenue service & what they were used for in MOW service during their last years?
The cars are in insanely bad shape. 2 have large holes in their rooftops. I think one was numbered '30616' though i forget offhand...
B)along the old SBK ROW between McDonald av & along 37th street to the connection to the B, there's an old warehouse type space with concrete silos - was this an SBK customer? what was this factory? there were no signs on it, and inside, just about everything is demolished and/or graffiti covered.
Also, did the old shuttle run elevated here? if so, was it over the street, or over the old ROW just to the side of it?
There was also an ancient looking crane - type thing at the very end of the maintance yard @9th ave (at the edge of the old SBK to mcdonald...) - anything significant about it???
*phew* So how's that for a load of question? I think I'm done... and will much appricate any info.
Q Cars? Do you mean old Myrtle Avenue cars? I'd be very surprised that any would still be around, much less sitting in a scrap yard.
A museum would definitely want to gather them up.
The Culver Line, then shuttle, ran elevated along 37th Street from Ft. Hamilton Parkway to McDonald Avenue, over the SBK ROW.
I know the building you are referring to; probably was a SBK customer, don't know what it housed. There were alot of industrial buildings on both sides of 37th Street above 13th Avenue, from what I remember.
Hope this helps.................
absolutely - i had no clue where the elevated ran... the last wood cars ran on the MJ, right? I can only wonder if these ran there...
I'm not sure as to the type of cars they are, but there's 3 o'them, made with iron frames and wood bodies. I suspect they're the last ones on the system outside a museum. (correct me if i'm wrong... are there others?)
As nice as it'd be, I can't see how they'd be saved... they're absolute demolished: no windows, rotting wood, rusting iron, large holes in the ceiling and some in the floors. Few seats, and what's left is completely ruined.
I don't even know how they'll get a scrap dealer to take them. There's not much metal of value, and the wood's no good. I wouldn't be surprised if they're not scrapped right in brooklyn. The fact that they've been able to shuffle them around at all baffles me. I don't think i've ever seem rail cars in worse shape than these,
Those would be them - the Myrtle Avenue MJ. What a shame if that is the case........................
You can see pictures of them at my website. Click on Scrap/NYCHRR on the left of the page.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Thanks. I'm surprised there are still a few around.
I believe this was discussed in an earlier thread, and the general view was that the trucks could be reused on the Museum Q's, but the bodies were past any hope of restoration. Supposedly a hold has been placed on them until salvageable items are removed.
I too recall it on a thread not terribly long ago (maybe 6 months? a year?).
From the looks of them, the trucks are the very last things of any value on them.
I'd still love to know what sort of service they saw after being retired from revenue service, and if they were used as a 3 car set, or individually...
Yeah, it's really true- I see these cars almost every day from the Gowannus Expressway. From that distance, I thought they were Lo-Vs. I couldn't believe any woodens would still be left. One Sunday afternoon, I went over there myself, and was shocked to see that they're wood.
They're in TERRIBLE shape. I'd also be curious to know what service they provided in work yellow. Being made out of wood, would TA have ever run them in a tunnel? Maybe they were painted yellow after the Myrtle Ave line closed, and then allowed to rot?
Hey Guys,
That old Q set was used as the reach cars for the old pump train. They were naturals for this, since wood is much better suited for submergence than metal. Oh well, from what I hear, the Qs are being held to take whatever is salvageable off before scrapping.
We've Got: Hot Lunch!
What is a reach car for a pump train and when and how does it get submerged? I never heard of any such thing.......
See my other post in this thread. It will explain fully. Sorry but I referred to a 'reach car' as a 'hose-feeder car'. I didn't know the proper term, but it means basically the same thing.
BMTman
Beats pails and shovels ... or STRAWS. :)
Thank you, I understand now, interesting........
[I couldn't believe any woodens would still be left.]
Check out this site's FAQ section to see where a number of woodies are. The Transit Museum has the oldest woodie ... car G from 1878 ... borrowed from Branford, and a Q #1612c. Plus Kingston has a Q #1602. Also 1227 a Brooklyn Elevated (BU) from 1903 runs just fine, just ask Hat Bus.
Mr t__:^)
Recent photos of Q Cars and other scraps near and around the SBK. Also new photos of SBK's N1 and N2 and NYCT work equipment rebuilding the 39th St. yard.
New York Area Railroads: New York City Transit (trainweb.org/nyrail/nyct)
-Dan
New York Area Railroads
Joe: The Q-Types were 1200 and 1400 series BU Gate cars that had the end platforms enclosed and sliding doors installed. 90 cars were configured as "Q" types;Mtr-Tlr-Mtr and 26 as "QX" types;Mtr-Tlr.
They were placed in service on the then jointly operated IRT-BMT Flushing and Astoria Lines in time for the 1938-1939 World's Fair.
They remained on these lines until 1949 when they were transfered to the IRT 3 Avenue El where they remained until 1956. They made a brief(one day ) appearance on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle On Ocotber 10,1957. Starting on April 10,1958 they were placed in service on the #11 Myrtle Avenue Local displacing the last BU cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[A)The old Q cars (?) that have been lingering in the scrap yard area. I recall seeing them down there last year, painting in peeling, graffiti coated maintance yellow. Since they're rebuilding the scrap yard for the redbird influx, the 3 have been towed back near the junction with the B line. Anyone know what lines they served on (primarily elevadeds?), when bought (1938?), retired from revenue service & what they were used for in MOW service during their last years?]
Those Q cars were last used in MOW service on a pump train as hose-feeder cars (i.e., these cars were de-electrified so they could be backed into a flooded tunnel situation and the pumps hose would be passed through the cars to the problem area). They have been completely out of service for about 10 years are so.
Most of the Q's last ran in REVENUE service on the Myrtle Avenue El, so I suspect that that three-some did duty there as well.
[B)along the old SBK ROW between McDonald av & along 37th street to the connection to the B, there's an old warehouse type space with concrete silos - was this an SBK customer? what was this factory?]
Yes, alot of the warehouse and storage facilities around the Dahill Road/38th/39th Street/McDonald Ave. area were former customers of the South Brooklyn Railway. Not sure about the one you've mentioned in particular, but I would hazard a guess that it was.
[Also, did the old shuttle run elevated here? if so, was it over the street, or over the old ROW just to the side of it?]
Yes, again. The Culver Shuttle (formerly the original Culver Line) ran above the SBK ROW. Most of the businesses that abutted the El structure had sidings for the SBK.
[There was also an ancient looking crane - type thing at the very end of the maintance yard @9th ave (at the edge of the old SBK to mcdonald...) - anything significant about it???]
What you saw was an old BRT/BMT 'Burro' crane's cab unit. (The hoist is a separte piece). It was used primarily on El structures or on lines that ran on embankments or in cuts, since it was too big to operate in tunnels. Obviously, it was not used in Manhattan or the Bronx. I'd guess it served BMT Southern and Eastern Divisions almost exclusively. Rumor has it that it is now the property of the Rail Preservation Society...
Hope I was able to answer your questions.
BMTman
Thanks - that just about covers everything!
A tunnel to Europe was always in my wildest imaginations! I never knew that not only was such a thing feasible, but also the idea is not even new!
TWO HOUR RIDE TO LONDON
I was also going to post about the USA Today article about the Maglev, but wsteil did that one already
235343
From the post article.
"A recent estimate for laying train tubes across the ocean was $28 billion"
Sure the big dig a ten mile project cost 20 billion and the second Ave. Subway may cost the same but a 3,400 mile tunnel will only cost 28 billion. Riiigh
It must be a slow news they or something. just where do they get this BS, and who would pay for it?
pull-eez.
"and who would pay for it? "
SEPTA....of course !
Bill "Newkirk"
That tunnel will definitely cost a lot more than $28B. I'd like to see how engineers can push a tunnel across the volcanic Mid - Atlantic Ridge, which is constantly expanding at the rate of a few cm a year.
Dealing with the expansion of the mid-Atlantic ridge is actually easier than you may think. Concrete, like all materials, expands and contracts with temperature. As such, provisions must be made in any structure for the change in dimension of concrete.
Expansion joints are readily apparent as you drive over them on any of our bridges and elevated roadways. You can even see the ones that seized up! Temperatures under water would remain fairly constant, but some fluctuation must be accounted for in design.
Steel, for example, has a coefficient of thermal expansion (change in length) of about one inch per 100 feet per 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Say the temperature under water is expected to fluctuate only 20 degrees. A 3400-mile cross-Atlantic tunnel made of steel would have a change in length of 6.8 miles over 20 Fahrenheit degrees!
I believe certain concretes have a much smaller coefficient of thermal expansion, but a few centimeters compared to thousands of feet is really of no concern. Moreover, the sea floor would be expected to shift in more than one place and in more than one direction (not just elongation).
To handle the movement of the concrete segments, expansion joints (possibly bellows style) would be added at various intervals along the tunnel.
MATT-2AV
Oops.
For a 3,400 mile steel structure, that's an axial extension of 0.57 miles over a change in temperature of 20 Fahrenheit degrees. That's still a great deal of movement!
MATT-2AV
I should read it again, but I thought it meant 150 feet below the water surface, anchored by cables to the sea floor.
Unlike the Big Dig and 2nd Avenue, there aren't any obstructions in the ocean to get in the way of construction. The guy oversimplifed it a bit with the telegraph analogy, but it isn't too far from the truth. All it would take are prefabricated sections of tunnel that are dropped into place. The technology for this is not at all new. Think of the BART cross harbor tunnel built 30 years ago, only a lot longer. Don't think of the Channel Tunnel, which was bored from granite.
I'd like to see how they are going to deal with safety issues that deep under water, that's probably going to be the most expensive part. Anyway, I doubt we'd see it get built anytime in the next 30 years.
The big dig is a difficult project because the tunnel is going under essintally landfill, not very stable stuff. Add the structures already in place and it's easy to see why it's costing so much. As for 2 Ave, we know why :)
...safety issues...
Life submarines? Self-sealing tube sections that can be separated and floated to the surface? A reallllly long ladder to man-made islands?
Like another poster said, I'd like to see them work with the mid-Atlantic Ridge. That thing snapped the first transcontinental cable.
Like another poster said, I'd like to see them work with the mid-Atlantic Ridge. That thing snapped the first transcontinental cable.
The article said the tunnel is expected to be about 150 feet submerged. The only hazards are whales and giant squid. Even at its highest point, isn't the mid-atlantic ridge a ways down?
Yes. But I don't believe that gradual tectonic movement on the order of a few centimeters per year will be a substantial obstacle to tunnel construction relative to the entire project. See my other posts.
MATT-2AV
When you really think about it, that is not deep at all. That's only two car lengths (R44-68), and for all practical purposes, given the depth of the ocean, is the surface.
People mentioned whales and submarines, but wouldn't ocean liners be deep enough to hit it? If so, then half the ocean is cut off to them.
Rob,
It's purely academic, but if I'm not mistaken, the Channel Tunnel was bored mostly through clay -- the same clay that makes up the White Cliffs of Dover. Regardless, the TBM method is the point.
MATT-2AV
It's chalk, not clay.
Sell me the Brooklyn Bridge first, then talk to me about that. Whopper city, and the tall tales keep on coming. I bet the next thing they will tell you is about a proposed Rastafarian chapter in the Ku Klux Klan!
Well, it's going to be submerged, not underground, so they don't have to dig. Just build the tube and drop it off the back of a boat.
Whatever that guy's smokin'... I WANT SOME!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh... and the movie is actually available... it was released on video last November as "Transatlantic Tunnel"... I found it listed at barnes and noble on the web and also at amazon.com - amazon's cheaper, but if you're ordering two items from bn then there's no shipping charge.
I also spotted a video on the London Underground at amazon...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There would be one problem if this were to become reality. Being vulnerable to terrorist sabotage.
Bill "Newkirk"
What a stupid idea! Especially since we can't even get the MTA to build a tunnel from Manhattan to Staten Island! Besides this, what about the Second Avenue Line and various other projects in New York City which greatly need transportation services.
N Bway Line
...on the way back from brooklyn todya, i spotted an R68 near 34th street parked on the SB express track - lights on and all doors open.
Were they just airing it out, or is there some other reason for doing this? I recall they used to do the same thing years ago when they had Rs or B's laid up in the middle track of the astoria elevated.
...and once the exp on bway becomes active again, where will all the laid up trains along the line end up? I can't see the 6th av stretch from W4 to 34th on the exp being a convient place (for an operator to get in and out of) for a lay up...
Track and station work often forces express trains to run on the local track. Sometimes they make local stops. Sometimes they don't. Is there any sort of standard procedure? (I'm referring to scheduled work here, not emergency reroutes.)
For the past few months, every 2/3 I've ridden that's been sent to the local track has made local stops. This afternoon, I was on a 3 which pulled into the local track at 72nd. I was going to 86th. I listened attentively for announcements but there were none; I stayed on since I thought I had figured out the standard procedure. Approaching 79th the C/R announced the next stop: 96th. At 96th I got off and (after waiting for a detailed announcement) asked the C/R why he didn't make any announcements at 72nd. He assured me that he did; I told him that the PA system must have been broken in the last car (although it worked fine at 42nd and near 79th) and he promised to write up the defect. To his credit, he didn't sound at all annoyed that I had just questioned whether he was doing his job properly.
Until R-142's rule the earth, making announcements is an important part of the C/R's job -- particularly when trains aren't running on the tracks the passengers are used to. I don't know (and can't know) what the problem was here. If it was nothing more than defective speakers, the C/R obviously had no control, but the speakers should be repaired. If he made the announcement but forgot to turn on the mike (that's my guess), or (worse) he simply didn't bother making the announcement at all (unlikely, given how thorough his next announcement was), I hope he is reprimanded in whatever way the TA reprimands errant C/R's.
In case anyone wants to look into this, this incident occurred at about 3:15 this afternoon in car 1971 (last car on a NB 3).
The particular GO that caught you is SUPPOSED to require all 2 and 3 trains to make all local stops between 72 and 96. It is possible that this crew was told to run express here.
It is also possible that the CR did indeed make an announcement at 72 St; however, due to human fallibility, he pushed the IC button instead of the PA button (they are right next to one another and neither is labeled); in which case the TO heard a really great announcement that he didn't want to hear.
The particular GO that caught you is SUPPOSED to require all 2 and 3 trains to make all local stops between 72 and 96. It is possible that this crew was told to run express here.
I'm not sure. Just after I finished my chat with the C/R, an R-142 2 pulled into the SB local track. I ran over, both to get a ride back to 86 and to hear what the automated announcements would say, but they said that the next stop was 72. To confirm, I asked the C/R, "86?" He responded, "No." (There was a 1 immediately behind the 2. Maybe that's why the 2 ran express.) Around the same time, a 2 (Redbird) pulled into the NB local track; I don't think there was enough time for it to have made the local stops unless it was on the 3's heels.
Incidentally, if you recall my GO rant of last week -- if the TA would normally post GO's that have the express running local, I would have known to get off at 72 when I didn't see the signs in my car.
It is also possible that the CR did indeed make an announcement at 72 St; however, due to human fallibility, he pushed the IC button instead of the PA button (they are right next to one another and neither is labeled); in which case the TO heard a really great announcement that he didn't want to hear.
I can believe it. Does the TA pay any attention to common errors like this when designing new cars? That is, does the R-142 have a similar flaw? (I know, the C/R doesn't usually have to make announcements at all on the R-142, but they're still sometimes necessary.) And why wouldn't the T/O tell the C/R that he should try again or incur the wrath of angry passengers?
(Incidentally, the announcement might have not been all that great. The one at 42 was somewhat hurried -- granted, with all the transfers there it has to be hurried. The C/R said nothing about the 1 running express from there to 72, and I think he even included the 3 itself in the list of transfers.)
Does the TA pay any attention to common errors like this when designing new cars? That is, does the R-142 have a similar flaw?
Sometimes. No.
All the buttons on the R-142 Communications Panel are clearly labeled, so that shouldn't be a problem.
Transit is known for not paying attention to design flaws (or successes). Witness the new trains: on the R-142, the Controller handle is centered on the console, making it easy to operate as arighty or a lefty; the R-143 has the handle moved to the right side of the console, forcing a right-handed operation.
For scheduled work, trains almost always run local on the local.
For emergency reroutes, trains almost always run express on the local.
On a related note, I have resolved to demand the F run full local or full express (even if must be express on the local) in Queens the next time this weekend's GO is pulled on us. I'm calling (or writing) the line manager. This is one of the few instances I actually have a right to demand service adjustments, since this actually pertains to me as a customer and not just as a railfan.
Any train operators from the late 60's still out there that remember handling a train that could have as many as three to four different types in the same train?
There are pictures in this site where you can have an R32, R38, R40, and R42 all in the same train.
Question is: How did these beasts handle? What was it like to run one?
I know that mixing and matching was common on A Division, but it eventually stopped on the B. Must have been some good reasons..........
32 and 38, 40 and 42 still mix and match together. 68 and 68a as well. I'd imagine that the GOH greatly improved compatibility between the older classes.
"Question is: How did these beasts handle? "
The R-32s and R-38s look very similar, but I was told that they had different braking ratios. But with the failing R-1s, the TA had to put anything together to make a train. Even the R11s were mixed with other classes.
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC one T/O said a smorgasbord train "handled like a f$#@%&* rubber band."
I distinctly remember seeing mixed R16/R27/R30 consists as late as 1969. I also saw Slants mixed with R40M and also R32 mixed with R42.
By 1971 or 1972 they seemed to straighten this out some.
wayne
It's true that The north side of the manhatthan bridge will be closed,but what will happen after 2004.New rumors and current and old services might provide future relief to your commute on those subway lines(including the G,3,5,D,DD,V,Q,W,F and E)I know the DD,A temporary subway line for the Chrystie st connection.The G will runn express in Queens with the E and F.The V,Q and R will run local to 71 Avenue(The Q will run to 179 street)The F will Run express in ALL of Queens even after 71 avenue.The W will be the new Broadway express with th Q replacing the M after 9th Avenue.The 3 will run on latenights again after 6 years.Exept the 3 will run express with the 5 in brooklyn(the 2 will still run local)sadly Kingston and Norstrand Avenue will be closed.The 5 will run to Newlots avenue latenights(making this the 1st time the 5 will run to Newlots and the 2nd time the 5 runs to Utica Avenue).
Who's legg are you pullin'?
Oh boy, rumors can drive people crazy. Here's my takes:
"I know the DD,A temporary subway line for the Chrystie st connection."
Double letters are not to be used until after all single letters except "I" and "O" are used up.
"The G will runn express in Queens with the E and F""
G-express??? It's not even on Queens Blvd come Nov and now it's running exp?
"The V,Q and R will run local to 71 Avenue(The Q will run to 179 street)"
Okay, first off, making the Q local so the G can run exp is ridiculous. Second, the G will be changing tracks lcl-exp northbound after Queens Plz and then the V will be crossing over exp-lcl. So the R can end up getting the short end of the stick. Saying the Q is going to 63rd then northbound the R may have to wait for a merging R before Queens Plz and then may have to wait for a crossing V at/after Queens Blvd, and then may have to wait for a merging Q before the 63rd St line merge.
"The W will be the new Broadway express with th Q replacing the M after 9th Avenue"
So. Bklyn needs a direct Nassau line. Also, ever stop to think that the R will be the only 4th Ave local now, considering the W will run express?
"The 3 will run on latenights again after 6 years."
Why? The M7 and M102 buses doing a bad job?
"Exept the 3 will run express with the 5 in brooklyn(the 2 will still run local)sadly Kingston and Norstrand Avenue will be closed"
Station closings won't go through, and imagine the 3, 4, and 5 all exp with just the 2 to make local stops?
"The 5 will run to Newlots avenue latenights(making this the 1st time the 5 will run to Newlots and the 2nd time the 5 runs to Utica Avenue)."
Is the 4 going to Flatbush? There's no mention of the 4. I guess it could go all Bklyn local to Flatbush if that's what's said.
Also, ever stop to think that the R will be the only 4th Ave local now, considering the W will run express?
Right now, the R is the only midday 4th Avenue local. Weekends the N also runs local; rush hours the M is extended to Brooklyn via local. But weekday middays the B and N are express and the R is local.
R can't be local on rush hours though
R can't be ONLY local on rush hours though
This is to those people who for some reason doesn't know about the Manhatthan bridge construction.Let me start by saying this is one of the most longest constructions in the MTA.
Brooklyn:The Q is being split into 2 Broadway expess lines.Te Brighton local which runs at al times,and the brighton express which runs on weekends.The Brighton local will replace D service in brooklyn while th brighton express replaces the 6th avenu express.The W train will make B stops to Coney Island.Weekends and nights the W runs to Atlantic(Properly Pacific street) from Coney Island.
Manhatthan & The Bronx:The W will run express(stoping at 49 street)to Queens.The Q will lose it's "title" as the 63 street line and terminate at 57th street.The B and D will run from 34th street to the Bronx on weekend schedules.There are 2 new shuttle trains on the 6th ave line.1st the 6th avenue shuttle which will run from Broadway Laffyette to 21st street Queensbridge(until the 63 street connector opens)and the Grand street shuttle.F or V service might run express depending on suggestions.
Queens:The W will run to Astoria via express peak direction only.
If I recall correctly, US Steel Corp. was contracted many years ago to rebuild the bridge, and then Something Bad Happened, and they refused to continue. Otherwise, they should have finished by the mid-80's.
Can somebody tell me what really happened with that? I probably have the dates wrong, and I'm missing details.
No. At nights, the W runs to 36 Street. Who said anything about weekend schedules for the B and D? You'll have just as much people coming from the Bronx and Central Park West during rush hour then as now. No, the F and V will run local. Where are you getting this? Wherever it is, better go look elsewhere.
As of today Sunday 7/8 there are still 20 cars of R36's still running in service. I even written down the car Numbers.
9519-18 9496-97 9503-02 9500-01 9490-91
9523-22 9524-25 9498-99 9515-14 9512-13
Today there was a great mix of Redbirds,R62A's and R142A's but most of the train on the road where R62A's and looking at the yard that was Redbirds and R142A's.
All I can say is if you get on one of the 2 sets of R36's enjoy they will be pulled any day now.
Today I got the first set you mentioned at Canal st, it left BB a bit before 4 PM. Very surprised, I had just said to myself "aw crap, another R-29" when I noticed the interior was noticeably brighter, the telltale sign of an R-36 while it's still in the tunnel and you can only see the front. 9491 Operating Motor.
Just today, came across the book Historical Atlas of NY by Eric Homberger [?]. Owl Books. Around the middle of the book, it had a section of the subways, and there was a map, in current route colors. At first, I saw D MQB on the Brighton; N to Continental; RR to Astoria; CC to Rockaway Park, Plus the GG, LL, 2345 in current arrangement in Brooklyn. So I figure it must be reflecting the 1983-85 era. But then I notice B Q via 63rd St. to LIC! Plus, there is a V on Central Park West, and a B on Smith St. with the GG. Pretty strange indeed. Not only are the dates mixed, but routings that never existed.The book was copyrighted 1994.
Feeling mean? Make copies and post them in stations early in the morning on July 22. Make sure not to miss the crucial transfer points: 59, 42, 34, Canal, Transcontinental, Stillwell.
Thanks. You just made my day.
:D :) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D
-Alan Scott
I wish SubTalkers would stop using colors to emphasize subway routes. The yellow ones are unreadable.
Bill "Newkirk"
What are you talking about! How else are we to show the N and R.
Without looking at the source code, guess what color I used.
>>> Without looking at the source code, guess what color I used. <<<
I do not really care what the source code is, it is extremely hard to read.
Tom
It was gold, a tad better than yellow. Anyway, color tags are what make posting fun. I used to use them a lot more often, before I got lazy. And I always used gold.
I agree. Bullets are readable, if a bit cumbersome.
How about typing then in a normal black-on-white typestyle, such as this?
Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should. ESPECIALLY when it comes to scrolling, blink, or otherwise moving text in a bulliten board posting, or music on web pages that you can't stop while you read the page. There are several sites I don't visit thatnks to this, and some of them belong to people who post here.
-Hank
>>>...or music on web pages that you can't stop while you read the page.<<<
Agreed, I stay away from sites w/this feature. No matter how good they are. Most annoying.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> or music on web pages that you can't stop while you read the page. <<<
The music does not bother me because I can mute my speakers, but I have not yet figured a way to suppress the wallpaper that is so busy that it is impossible to read the text.
Tom
Yeah, there's that too. Muting the speakers isn't something I should need to do. A responsible HTML editor will allow someone viewing their work the option to stop the music. Of course, a responsible editor wouldn't put white text on a pink background, either.
-Hank
Besides, if I mute my speakers I lose all the sounds I have assigned to particular events such as IMs., etc,
Peace,
ANDEE
#FF8000
It's #FFD700. I used print screen to copy it into paint, then used the dropper to pick up the color, then used edit colors from the colors menu. Red: 255, Green: 215, Blue: 0.
I use gold instead of yellow for the (N)(Q) and (R), and coming soon the (W). That's a little more clear than yellow.
(Yes. I know. Technically I should have been using orange for the Q, but I've been stubbornly clinging to the idea that the Q should be a Broadway express, which happily soon it will be again. Just try and abide my silliness.)
:-) Andrew
N BROADWAY LINE
Uh....right you are!
:-) Andrew
N Broadway Line
N Broadway Line
Astoria Bwy SeaBeach
Broadway Line
Did I mention the OTHER thing I can't stand about people who use HTML in their posts 'just because they can' is that they NEVER seem to know how to CLOSE their HTML? There should be a death penalty for this. All their posts should be killed.
-Hank
There you go! ---->
N Bwy
I did it for EFFECT. That's the way it appeared in the book (was just as hard to read).
When I use color, I use the bullet gif's, or make the text an even deeper gold (N) (Q) (R) (W). I even made up bullets in that color scheme with white letters.
This color would be better on the maps then the yellow they use now that has a bit of red in it. (look at it with a magnifying glass)
Also forgot to mention that while it was "CC" in the Rockaways, it was "C" elsewhere.
Yeah. I have that book too. That map is a mess, as are a few others. All in all, though, it is a good book.
:-) Andrew
The southbound broadway express was filled with parked Ns today, and the switch to the bridge had the red light and tripper. With yesterday's familiarization being cancelled, aren't they worried about running out of time?
>>With yesterday's familiarization being cancelled, aren't they worried about running out of time?<<
I think they fear the wrath of the TWU more. Asking people to come in on Sunday of 'July 4th weekend' would be ridiculous.
I did the fariliarization train on Sunday. I got on the 6:30pm train. I was the only one on board so the TSS let me go over the bridge optating. He had me stop at the old cut for "M" line pass thur and the planded cut for the PATH trains to come in from the Canal street. I did not know about this one. There is on speed going into Canal Street. They put timer into the station in both direction. Manhatton bound there are two side the station set for 20mph, witch means on more then 13mph for them ot clear.
Robert
Any dreaded WD's put in anywhere??
I know there is a whole bunch of work lights on the Brooklyn side, I hope "they" aren't playing around over there.
Ther are NO WD gone eather direction.
Robert
WD for switches mostly.
PATH trains on Canal Street? What's this?
PATH trains on Canal Street? What's this?
Unlikely. At one time the H&M had large expansion plans. You probably know of the plan to extend the midtown line to Grand Central, as well as a branch from 9th Street to Astor Place. There was a "pie in the sky" plan to run from 33rd St down Broadway to 17th Street, then down University Place, Washington Square East and Wooster St. to Canal St., then onto Church and ending up at Hudson Terminal. You can see a map of this proposed route here.
But it never even got out of the planning stages (like the rest of the H&M's expansion) because the City had discovered what it though was an unlimited source of revenue by having the IRT operate a subway where the City had financed the construction. The H&M was privately funded and the City would not see any part of the revenue, only a paltry franchise fee. Never mind that the City never got its money back from constructing the IRT - they wouldn't discover that for many years to come.
In any event, this plan was dead by the end of 1911 and no construction was ever done, and even if any had been done, there would not have been any at-grade interaction with the City subway routes.
I rode across the bridge on my bike on Saturday. They were working on the tracks in numerous places. Must be why the runs were cancelled.
Great place to ride. Less of an uphill than the Brooklyn Bridge, although Canal St sucks.
I mentioned in my original post that there would be no schooling trains on the weekend of the 7th.
OK.
1. Downtown 2 trains run express from 241st to Gunhill.
2. Downtown 2 trains run express from 174th to 3rd Ave.
3. No 5 train service between 180th and Grand Concourse.
4. Shuttle train every 30 minutes between Dyre and 180th.
Can someone tell me why they're always doing work on these lines in the Bronx. Why don't they just tear down the entire El from 241st to 3rd Avenue and rebuild it if it's in such bad shape.
None of the other els in the Bronx undergo such repairs. I hate living by these lines. Isn't there a rule that the TA can only do one repair job at a time on a line?
What other els in the bronx? Oh, you mean the Jerome ave one, which had no service at all for a while recently (everyone had to take the D). They also have been having the express in one direction stuff going on for months now, not just weekends but middays as well. They've also had midday short-turns at 149th.
How 'bout the 6, which has recently had trains running one-direction express from Parkchester to Pelham Bay Pk and vice versa.
The 1/9 have had various mono-directional express things middays recently, and nighttime shuttle bussing.
On the brooklyn front, the Broadway el had not had manhattan bound local service on a weekend since early May.
The West end has not had trains running in both directions on the weekend for months as well.
The only elevated line in the system which has not been affected by G.O.s recently is the A.
But what are they DOING? Also, it seems the 2 has the worst El service. Trains are always crowded to capacity.
I think they're replacing the signals.
On a similar note, yesterday on the N the conductor said, as we entered Queensboro plaza, "If you look to your left, you will notice there is no northbound track. That is why we are not going into manhattan today, tomorrow, or next weekend. They are removing and replacing the northbound track on the el." Maybe all conductors should do the same.
Could you at least tell they were doing work, or was it like my Queens Blvd express which for some strange reason never works when the F is running via 63rd. Yet, miraculously, it's fine when the R is.
See? This is what I mean. The lazy TA. Just because there's no track, they can't run the N train. They're so lazy! ^_^
"On a similar note, yesterday on the N the conductor said, as we entered Queensboro plaza, "If you look to your left, you will notice there is no northbound track. That is why we are not going into manhattan today, tomorrow, or next weekend. They are removing and replacing the northbound track on the el." Maybe all conductors should do the same."
I remember that announcement too! If only I lived on one of the IRT lines.
N Broadway Line
The 30-minute Dyre shuttles are perhaps the most frustrating of all. At least they've ran them on time this year. Last year it was terrible because there was no apparent schedule to them, which is a major problem when you're trying to get somewhere on time.
<from 241st to 3rd Avenue and rebuild it if it's in such bad shape.>>
I'm in total agreement.
I can't account for the other Bronx els, but I have lived near the 2,5 trains since the 70's.
In that time, the #5 and the #2 (to an extent) have been undergoing some type of work. This is especially true on the weekends. It's amazing how this work has been ongoing for over 20 years. At this rate the full length Second Avenue Subway could have been built.
Sometimes I can't help but think that the statement Michael Douglas told the construction worker in the 1993 movie "Falling Down" has some truth to it.
(Can someone tell me why they're always doing work on these lines in the Bronx. Why don't they just tear down the entire El from 241st to 3rd Avenue and rebuild it if it's in such bad shape.)
They're replacing all the signals. They're just about done with "White Plains Road I", which was north of Bronx Park East. They've just started "White Plains Road II," which is south of E. 180th Street. They are starting the design of "White Plains Rd III," which includes the switches at E. 180th Street and the yard.
We're facing the same thing down here on the Culver, with the Bergen Street interlocking project followed by signals replacements on the Culver itself. I guess there is a lot of construction going on now, to make up for years of neglect. Personally, I worry more about them not doing it than doing it. This way, at least at some point things will be fixed.
Not much you can do about it. They've got to replace the signals sometime (isn't the WPR line the last of the old IRT)? Just don't move when it's done. Signals have a 50 year life, and you might just move into another signal job. At least when it's over, it's over.
Anyone know when the new TA map will be released with the new services? I have the little pamphlet version. I can't wait to see the big one.
Go to Pacific St & 4th ave, the new one is the big one platform level. Also, check all the maps on the B division cars, about 1/3rd of the fleet have 'em.
As of Friday, 370 Jay st. did not have the customer version. Neither did the transit museum stores in Manhattan.
I notice Subtalk has been working much better lately. Did David get a better server?
Yes... search back a week or so, you'll find his posts on the subject... our thanks to Dave and another individual whose name escapes me at the moment for the significant improvement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I used the 15th Street-Prospect Park station today, transferring from the B68. Passengers entering at the 15th Street end of the station are required to walk to the far end of the mezzanine to get through fare control. Especially given the name of the station, why isn't the HET at the 15th Street end replaced with a HEET?
(Especially given the name of the station, why isn't the HET at the 15th Street end replaced with a HEET?)
Good question. The 15th Street entrance is open at rush hour, but the station does most of its business on the other end -- toward Windsor Terrace. Still, an entry turnstile wouldn't be a bad idea.
An entry turnstile would never be a bad idea.
I've said this before, but, to maximize coverage, every station should have a full-time entrance and exit at the extreme end of each platform. In general, this is a lofty goal, and I don't expect it to be fulfilled tomorrow. A good place to start is stations like 15th Street, where the necessary staircases are already in place and all it would take is a new HEET.
Incidentally, what sort of neighborhood is this? My Hagstrom identifies it as Windsor Terrace.
(Incidentally, what sort of neighborhood is this? My Hagstrom identifies it as Windsor Terrace.)
It was a working-to-middle class, traditionally Irish neighborhood. More recently, new arrivals have been spilling over from yuppie Park Slope. Windsor Terrace is generally considered the area south of 15th Street and 8th Avenue, so the station draws from both Windsor Terrace and South Slope, as it's called.
I don't know about that. 77th Street and 86th Street stations on the Lex do pretty well with no entrances at the ends of the platforms.
They're pretty busy, but wouldn't it be better if you could save a block or two of walking? That's especially useful on the East Side, where Lexington is already a long walk for many.
And what about those stations that have their only entrance at one far end?
I live (essentially) directly above the north end of a station. The only full-time entrance is at the far south end. (There's a rush-hour-only, southbound-only entrance in the middle.) That means I need to walk two blocks just to get into the station that's right below me. And if I'm getting off at a station whose only exit is at the far north end, I walk to the north end of the platform once I get downstairs. On a typical round trip, I could easily walk over a half-mile (2 blocks to get to station A, 2 blocks on either platform, 2 blocks after exiting station B; double that for a round trip) even when both ends of the trip are directly above the platforms!
As my mother would say, the exercise is good for you.
For me, a locked or abandoned entrance is much more annoying than one that was never built.
I transferred from the F to the 3 at 14th today and I noticed, for the first time, that the closed passageway to 8th Avenue was in full view and well-lit (but barred off). I thought there was at least some sort of wall there. Did I just never notice it or is this new? All the lights were on -- it's good to see where my $1.50 (correction, $1.36) went.
I transferred from the F to the 3 at 14th today and I noticed, for the first time, that the closed passageway to 8th Avenue was in full view and well-lit (but barred off). I thought there was at least some sort of wall there. Did I just never notice it or is this new? All the lights were on -- it's good to see where my $1.50 (correction, $1.36) went.
It's been that way for years. I've often seen transit workers entering or leaving it by unlocking the gate - they might be using it as a shortcut to the training facilities at the 8th Avenue side, or possibly using it for storage.
Thanks. I must have missed it. I don't use that passageway often -- the last time was over a year ago, around midnight, and I wasn't paying attention to anything other than where to find the right platform.
The 8th Ave side has been closed with a brick wall. I believe that one maintenance group is using the passageway and adjoining rooms for storage.
I was at Stillwell today (cloudy, but still a nice day at the beach!!), and it occured to me--did the "NX" use the Brighton tracks at Stilwell, or did it have to wait for a vacancy on the last track where the "N" is that has the connection to the "D" tracks?? Either way, it's a bottleneck for sure. There probably was one at Brighton Beach as well waiting for a "QJ" or "QB" to pull out!! Tony
Tony: I can't be 100% certain of this but I did ride the NX in the pm rush one day and seemed to recall that it ran through Coney in track 1.
Larry
That "RJ" train 1967-8: 95-4ave to Jamaica 168 St: Northbound AM rush, Southbound PM rush via. Nassau!!!
1. Did more than 50 people ride that service?
2. Did the trains leaving 95 St actually make it all the way to Jamaica, or did they actually turn around at Crescent or ENY and head into the ENY yard? Or did they turn at Atlantic Av ("LL") stop?
3. What a silly revision of the Banker's Special!! Or, was there a great demand in 1967 to go from 4 Ave to Broadway Bklyn /Jamaica?? I know that businesses were booming in aJamaica back then, but geez!!
4. How many "RJ" trains were there each rush hour? 5 at 10 min headways??
Tony
Tony: The RJ ran M-F rush hours only from November 27,1967 until June 28,1968.
Basically the service ran as follows;
AM Rush: Northbound: Lv 95 St at 746,758,810,822 and 833am.758 and 810 go to Eastern Pkwy,others to 168 St-Jamaica.
:Southbound: Lv 168 St 528,541,553,603,619am to 95 St.619 runs express on Bway-Bklyn,earlier trains run lcl.
PM Rush: Northbound: Lv 95 St 537,546,554,602,614,625 pm to 168 St all except 625 run express on Bway-Bkyln.
:Southbound: Lv Eastern Pkwy 432,444,456,504,516pm to 95 St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Good to see you posting again!
You have been making yourself scarce around here for too many months!
Karl: Thanks; good to hear from you. I was laying low until a ceasefire was declared. I visted Brooklyn today and saw the remaining Q type set parked on the SBK tracks just west of 4 Avenue. The three cars are painted yellow and are in very poor condition. Almost the entire roof of one car is gone. I afraid to say that I don't think that they have much of a future.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
There were several pictures of those "Q's" posted here yesterday.
They looked as if they have deteriorated beyond any kind of restoration. They were not my favorite equipment, but it is still a shame to see them look like that.
Where did you get this info?
Where did you get this info?
R-16: I was there at the time it was running and compiled a good deal of information about the Chrystie Street openning. It also helps to have a complete set of ERA New York Division Bulletins.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You da man, Larry!
This months bulletin had a "fire sale" of some old ones.
I'm going to make the purchase.
I only saw an "RJ" train once, it was an R27/R30 mix and was heading inbound as I was heading outbound at the Manhattan end of the Willy B. It had bulkhead "RJ" signs with the rounded, thinner lettering and only the letters on the signs (no route subscript beneath).
On the maps, "RJ" had a red route designation.
wayne
There was a truncated version of the "RJ" in the 1980's, a brown (R) that started somewhere on Nassau St and went to 95 St-Bay Ridge.
Yeah, I know. No big deal. You probably already knew. But the 1980's are about as far back as my subway memory goes.
:-) Andrew
Yup, from 1968 to 1987, the RR (later R) special was introduced running from Chambers to 95th St. Only in it's last year was it denoted on a map as a brown Nassau St. line. Until then, it was always the same color as the Broadway RR/R (green then yellow).
It rarely ran as advertized. Most of the trains ran to Eastern Pkway or Metropolitan Ave in the AM and went into service at these stations in the early PM.
Then you would have had an RM. Or MR.
Taking the double letter system to it's absurd limits.
Hey. Anybody in SubTalk land see this movie? I heard it wasn't too bad but I haven't seen it. I think a lot of SubTalkers would like to see it. Does anybody have a copy? Heard they jacked up an R1/9 off the rails outside of Court St. to film one of the scenes.
I remember seeing it on TV once.
I haven't seen it out on video yet.
I got a big kick out of seeing the Court Street station made up as Bowling Green with some R1-9 cars sitting at the platform. My comment to myself at the time was that if they tried to run those cars at the real Bowling Green Station you would have had similar damage.
I have seen rollsigns from the previous eras with the various colors but I can't say I have ever seen the old baby blue 8 (3rd. Ave/Bronx) on a rollsign. Guess they didn't want to spend the money on the signs for the R12/14's. Just curious. Thanks.
Only place I ever saw the robin's egg 8 was on maps - the cars themselves never had any that I ever saw and that was my home line.
No purple MJ signs on the Q cars either after the `67 maps came out -- definitely would have made them look unique :-)
Heh. Funny about the old cars ... where would you have put them? I always got a kick out of the "necklace" they put on the NX's. That would have been a hoot on the 3rd and the Myrt ...
They also put some of these “necklaces” on some RJ runs as well. Interesting that both it and the NX were among the first lines to be 86’d. . . .
Probably wearing necklaces made them an easy target. :)
I've read that the #8 was never designated as such on the trains themselves. However, the black/white roll signs I believe had numbers up to #9. So why they were turned to "Shuttle" on the 3rd Ave, I don't know....
The old B/W signs never had an 8 on them. They went 6, 7 9
The R12's had 8-Astoria and 9-Dyre markers.
And by the time the TA got around to ordering R46-style route identification signs for the fronts of the R17-36 class cars in the mid-’70’s (you know, the ones with the grey 5), the 8 - 3rd Avenue local was no more.
[you know, the ones with the grey 5]
That reminds me. On Friday, I was riding #9519 on the (6) line. I noticed that the (6) sign on one side was YELLOW! I scrolled through the sign to write the readings down. On the sign currently on 9519, they are (BTW, the "\" indicates a line break):
(1) Broadway 7 Av\Local
(1) Broadway 7 Av\Local-Express
(2) 7 Avenue\Express
(3) 7 Avenue\Express
(4) Lexington Av\Express
--------------------------
<4> Lexington Av Express
--------------------------
<5> Lexington Av Express\Bronx Thru Express
(5) Lexington Av\Express
(6) Lexington Av\Local
<6> Lexington Av Local\Pelham Express
(7) Flushing Local
<7> Flushing Express-Local (7)
(7) Flushing Local-Express <7>
(S) Shuttle
Special
What's this about? All bullets are covered with the current 1979 era colored bullets. However, both 6's have partially come off, revealing the yellow 6 circles, and part of the (7) bullet is showing orange. Additionally, I believe the <4> reading was added at a later time, probably when they covered up the old bullets. That's probably what they did with the last 4 readings, as well.
Also, I was able to write down the text at the very top of the rollsign, which read as follows:
N.Y.C.T.A. NO. 14-81-[7347]
SIDE ROUTE CURTAIN DETAIL NO. 5
CONTRACT R-36 21, 22, 26, 28, 29, 33
TRANS-LITE INC. NO. AH-4548-5
N.Y.C.T.A.P.O. NO. 2-060
The [7347] is also a cover-up because it was a whiter color, the text was smaller and a different font.
What do you think would be the original rollsign readings for this one?
Did the (1) ever have a local-express service?
Yes, there once was a "Broadway Thru Express" on the #1 train - It left Van Courtlandt and the next stop was Dyckman southbound, and it skipped several other stops south of Dyckman to 96th. Ran for a few years back around 1960 or so up to somewhere just shy of 1970. Used the center track on the Broadway El in upper Manhattan/Bronx and skip-stopped south of Dyckman ...
I heard that "Broadway Express' (now #1) and "7th Avenue Local (#2, #3, from Lenox Ave) were ended around 1957-59. The 1963 map shows a service pattern essentialy similar to what's seen today, except that some Boroadway Locals ran from S. Ferry to 137th , which, to my knowledge, continued until about 1989, when 1/9 skip-stop was introduced.
Might want to check deeper ... I know I rode the southbound (had to get on at 231 and ride north to VCP to get it and then take it south from there as late as 1970, possibly 71) ... I know it ran through the late 60's for certain. The 137th train was between there and south for fills between those that came down from 242 ... dunno about the "express track crossovers" to local but knew they did exist back in the LoV days. The "through expresses" I rode were redbirds ...
I remember you told me about the #1 Thru express a few weeks ago in response to my complaining about the "skip stop" disaster. Do you recall why they stopped this? It seems like a GREAT idea, get people and trains downtown in a hurry, and puts the express track to use. Did it use the center track between 145 and 96, that would be a great train, express from 242 to Dyckman and then again from 145 to 96!
Piggo
I have no idea why they stopped it - it made what I always considered the longest whistle stop ride in the city almost useful. And no, while it ran down the center track on the el above Dyckman, it ran on the regular local track south of there. I don't remember exactly the stops south of Dyckman, so I'm merely GUESSING here - 181, 168, 145, 137, 125, 96 ... and I don't have any memories of a northbound afternoon run though it might have.
But from all I hear of what has become of "rapid transit" in the 70's and earlier turning into "rabid transit" currently, I'm sure glad I don't live in subway territory any longer. I just get this vision of a train opening up in midtown and skeletons falling out of the doors. :)
I was just giving it a bit of thought and PERHAPS the reason why it was discontinued might have had something to do with the New York Central. Back when the "BWAY THRU-EXP" ran, there was a lot of riders that got to VCP/242 and got on the trains up there. While there was a Marble Hill stop on the NYCRR, service towards its end wasn't all it was cracked up to be and a lot of commuters would bus it to 242. It's possible this might have been the reason and after the demise of the Central, service might have improved sufficiently that the ride up to the Bronx on the IRT wasn't so necessary. Just a suspicion, not a fact.
I'm not certain but I ***think*** that the "8" designator where it did exist on IRT cars was for "Astoria" and the reissuance of the number to the third avenue el was never considered ... and given its expected short life and low ridership after 1960, no point in redoing a handful of signs for the purpose.
Today alone about 5-6 sets of Redbirds were holding down runs on the Pelham line today.....Whatever bulletin Train Dude got is definately not in effect yet!!!!!!!!
DIE DEADBIRDS DIE!!!!! KAWASAKI RULES!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
YES SOME NEW JAPANESE IMPORTED JUNKERS !!..........ugh!!
Imported all the way from Yonkers -- Just a few kilometers from Tokyo.
John, do not confuse salaam. On his map it's only a few inches.
Are you sure he can read a map?
Are you sure he can read a map?
He can read?
I would assume so, since he seems to be able to fire back one of his comments after reading it.
Then again, his Mac may have a text-to-speech module.
hey- dude ? what is that supposed to mean ? & your answer is ___________________________________?.................!!!
same japanese junk to me ...............lol!!
I don't have any bulletin - I have a transfer ticket for the remaining R-36 cars to be transferred into my yard. What I also do not have today are the cars. Apparently RTO has not moved them yet. If I were salaam, I would not throw a piston just yet. There are about 100 redbirds now on the roster as "Scrap Pending". The end is near.
Could the undercarrage "drop" pronblem one of the R-142A's had last week have delayed the decision to move the `birds out by a couple of days? Since the new trains were only out of service a day or so the MTA obviously didn't judge this as a critical problem, but maybe just to be on the safe side they're waiting a few more days to ship `em off to Concourse, so they don't have to have a repeat of the BMT Standards last-minute reprieve off the scrap line from 35 years ago when the R-1/9s started going belly up in 1966.
Better to be safe than shorthanded...
First, it was not the undercarriage. From what I understand it was a tripcock that fell. The cause, as I was told, was an undersized bolt from the manufacturer. Since all the bolts are undersized, they all need to be replaced.
For Jersey Mike, THIS IS CONSIDERED A FLEET DEFECT FOR WHICH THE MANUFACTURER MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. THEY DID NOT FOLLOW CONVENTIONAL PRACTICES FOR BOLTS - OR SHOULD THE TA JUST ACCEPT THIS TOO?
Same type of bolt problem occured for the new high-speed Acela Express trains. The Amtrak's 'President', or Board of Commissioner was growing bitter about the delay, as speeds were chopped in half, and more welding and repairing of the rails had to be done.
I assume the delays added to as much as several months, as the arrival of the Acela EXP finally came in on Dec. 11, 2000.
The primary manufacturer, Bombardier, was held accountable for the mistake, and had to schedule a 'recovery' time to get back into business.
Earlier this evening, I was at the West 4th Street station upper level where the A, C, and E run. I was towards the north end of the southbound platform when I happened to look up at one of the signs that hang just over the edge of the platform.
At first, I thought I was seeing things, so I took another gander at the sign. This is what it said:
Downtown &
Brooklyn via
3 Av Local
3 Av Local??? I went over to the sign to see if someone had defaced it, but no, that was really what the sign said.
Anybody know of any more bloopers posted on the signage in the subway system?
Here's a real good one.
At 125th st, southbound platform, near the front end there is a guide-a-ride poster which depicts the B in a blue circle. (I thought it was the B. Maybe it was the D) I got a real kick out of this.
AT 59/Lexington on the northbound 6 platform, one sign for the N/R service is mounted in the wrong direction. It directs passengers towards the exit at the south end of the station( which only has a long staircase to the northbound 4&5).
That station also has one entrance (southwest corner of 60th and Lex) with the 5 before the 4.
Remember the ramps at Times Square BMT? There was a sign about midway up each one. Well, those signs are still there, way up by the (high) ceiling, even though they're above plain platform now.
Also at Times Square, there are some conflicting directions given through the maze of passageways, ramps, and escalators. I wouldn't call them bloopers, since there's often not one clear best way to get around that complex. But the sign pointing to the passageway parallel to the IRT platforms is still there even though the passageway itself has been boarded up for a few months. (A few days before it was boarded up -- just in time! -- I got some pictures in that passageway, including a mysterious bit of artwork which I'm afraid might not be there anymore.)
I've posted a few other bloopers in other threads. Here's what I can think of offhand:
A bunch of yellow B's and D's at Stillwell. Also a Q.
110th Street on the 2/3 is at Central Park North. There is no such thing as 110th Street at that point.
At least one sign on the upper level platform at 145th Street points downstairs for the C and D. The C stops upstairs; it's now the B downstairs. Similarly, the 168th Street elevators have the upper level posted as the A/B level. And at this same station, some of the entrances list A-C-B-1-9 while others list A-C-A-1-9.
I just noticed today an IND-style platform directional at Delancey Street pointing to Broome. I'm pretty sure there's no exit there anymore.
At Canal Street, NB J/M/Z platform, signs point towards the boarded staircases.
At 62nd Street on the B/M, one of the platform exits is closed, with a sign announcing its closure until 1999. (I noticed this around April 2001.)
Inside the World Trade Center, the 1/9 entrances omit the 9. One of the entrances to 96th Street on the 1/2/3/9 also omits the 9.
One of the entrances to 96th Street (B/C) lists the K.
The abandoned Bowling Green shuttle platform, still visible from the front of the southbound platform, has the old bullet colors.
I'm sure there are more.
Same thing at Nostrand and Rockaway Avenues on the A and C lines with the wall signs.
Rockaway Avenue has wall signs pointing to Hopkinson Avenue. But it hasn't been Hopkinson Avenue for many years. It was renamed Thomas S. Boyland Street.
Nostrand Avenue on the lower level northbound has a wall sign that points to Arlington Place. But the exit for Arlington Place has been closed and sealed for decades. It doesn't exist anymore.
I think some TA managers must read this site. In 1999, I found the mosiac signs at 65th Street on the G/R indicating "Jamaica and Rockaways" (I guess a reference to the never built "second sytem"). Dave also has references to this in the description of the IND/Queens Blvd. line.
I went back there about 3 weeks ago. Guess what? TA had placed modern signs covering up the "Rockaway" mosiacs, and they were of ssize and shape to EXACTLY cover the 1930s signage!! It's hard to describe, but most TA signs are long rectangles, whereas these were almost square, which is uncommon..
Clearly deliberate. Couldn't discern a hint of what was underneath.
The abandoned Bowling Green shuttle platform, still visible from the front of the southbound platform, has the old bullet colors
Unless they've been covered up recently, the entrance stairwells right in front of Citibank (north side of Battery Place just west of Bowling Green itself) also had signs with the old bullet colors for the 4 and 5.
Still there, as of this afternoon...
YES!! I've seen those as well.
65st and Northern Blvd both have signs pointing to non-existant exits.
At Van Wyck Blvd, there is a "To Street" sign which points in both directions, unfortunately one of those directions the stairs have been removed as the mezzanine was taken over for the police.
The G still runs to 169st nights, according to several signs there.
Many, many signs all over the place on the R tell people to take the N to 42st for E for night service to Queens Blvd, and at 34st tell people to take D to 7th ave for E when the F is right upstairs. This was from back when the F wasn't a 24/7 Queens Blvd line.
Someone goofed at the 6th ave downtown local track at 47-50. If you look closely at the sign, you can tell it has been covered over twice. It used to say "Via Jay st" (understandable, since the express used to say "via DeKalb ave"). However, beneath that it used to say "via 6th ave express"! I dont think there was ever a 6th ave express that came in from 53st!
There was a period in the 1990s (don't remember EXACTLY when), when the F ran to 21st-Queensbridge late nights and the G went to 179th during these hours.
Then, about 18 months ago, a late-night shuttle from 21st-Queensbridge to 2nd Ave/Houston was run, and shown on the map. However, I guess now late night service is all by GO....
I presume that S is what is referred to in this sign?
One sign at 47-50st downtown points to the center track as "express" and the wall track as "local".
All over the place, the B is indicated as the "West End Express" instead of 4th ave express.
I believe at 74st/Broadway on the 7, one of the signs indicates the transfer to the IND as an "exit."
Not really a subway blooper, but a sign at Kingsland NJT station reads "New York" and points to the stairs to the Hoboken platform. New York is really in the other direction, Suffern and Port Jervis.
I enjoyed the old BMT signs in Brooklyn stating that the trains were running "to city". I guess that they refused to acknowledge that Brooklyn was no longer a separate entity.
I guess they were going along with the popular usage. Living in Queens I grew up saying "I'm going to THE CITY" instead of saying Manhattan.
I still use the term "City" in place of Manhattan to this day - as in - "I work in the City"
There are a couple other places that refer to Manhattan-bound trains as "TO CITY." These are at Broad Channel (sign over entrance to Manhattan-bound stairs), and Gun Hill Road and Pelham Parkway on the Dyre Line (old "train approaching" sign with lights which indicate an approaching train. Text below light reads "TO CITY.")
>>>Living in Queens I grew up saying "I'm going to THE CITY" instead of saying Manhattan. <<<
We real New Yorkers appreciate your appropriate deference. :-)
Tom
We say the same in Staten Island.
Quick!!! Someone get a picture of that.
I know of one although not a subway sign. For a couple of years at 42nd St and 5th Avenue there was a street sign on the NE corner that said: 42th Street. I always said I was going to take a picture but by the time I got around to it someone had removed it (there still is no street sign on that corner).
The recent "Bleeker" misspelling has been mentioned here. I have a picture.
I noticed two weeks ago that there's a "WEST ST" sign on the West Side Highway at 36th Street. Either West Street has been extended northward or that's actually 12th Avenue.
Here is a picture. Please be forewarned, it was 400 speed film with no flash with a $5 camera.
That HAD to be deliberate on some TA employeee's part!! It's CLEARLY a "3", not even close to an "8". I bet he/she jsut wanted to see how long it could go unnoticed.
I looked at this sign and the other one the first time I saw them and determined that they were genuine 3s.
That doesn't mean that the people here who posted about this are wrong in suggesting it was changed, perhaps sometime after I took the picture and my visual inspection they put an 8 over it, which either fell off or was removed...
I'm sure someone artfully blotted out half of the "8" to make a "3". There hasn't been a 3rd Avenue local in this city in over 45 years.
Of course, even when that sign is right, it's wrong. From W 4th Street south, the "Eighth Ave" trains run on 6th Ave, not 8th. I don't know what they should actually call this line south of W 4th St. Church St local and express?
:-) Andrew
According to the original IND route designations, it's right!
The routes were designated by a combination of the northern (eastern) terminal and the route through Mid-Manhattan (separate rules for the Fulton Street and Crosstown lines):
A - Washington Heights - Eighth Avenue Express
AA- Washington Heights - Eighth Avenue Local
BB- Washington Heights - Sixth Avenue Local
CC- Concourse - Eighth Avenue Local
D - Concourse - Sixth Avenue Express
E - Queens Boulevard - Eighth Avenue Express
F - Queens Boulevard - Sixth Avenue Express
Note also the confusion of the IRT and BMT Broadway (Manhattan) lines:
From Bowling Green to Fulton Street, the IRT East Side line runs on Broadway;
From City Hall to Times Square, the BMT line runs on Broadway; and
From Times Square to 242nd Street, the IRT West Side line runs on Broadway.
Note also the confusion of the IRT and BMT Broadway (Manhattan) lines:
From Bowling Green to Fulton Street, the IRT East Side line runs on Broadway;
From City Hall to Times Square, the BMT line runs on Broadway; and
From Times Square to 242nd Street, the IRT West Side line runs on Broadway.
Actually, from Times Square to 168th Street, the IRT West Side line runs on Broadway. From 168th Street to just shy of Dyckman Street, nothing runs on Broadway. From Dyckman Street to 207th Street, the IND 8th Avenue line runs on Broadway. From 207th Street to 215th Street, again, nothing runs on Broadway. From 215th Street to 242nd Street, the IRT West Side line returns to Broadway.
Apparently, the store owners along Broadway between Times Square and City Hall back in 1900 didn't want the disruption of a subway underneath their streets (ye olde NIMBYs, I guess), and forced the IRT to find a different route uptown, which turned out to be Elm Street (Lafayette), Fourth Ave. and Park Ave. to Grand Central and then across to Times Square.
After the tremendous success of the Contract 1 line, opposition to the Contract 2 subway running to Brooklyn from City Hall via lower Broadway disappeared. Then when the BMT came along five years later as part of the Dual Contracts, the only remaining section of Broadway that was open was from Vescey Street to Times Square, which is what they used for their line to midtown Manhattan.
But then the B and D trains are not truly 6th Av line trains as they run on 8th Av between 125th and 59th.
Then again it isn't 8th Av there but Central Park West. Maybe these should be CPW trains instead of 6th/8th Av trains.
Not my point. That sign is at West Fourth St, on the southbound platform. From there on, "8th Ave" is moot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the signs on the northbound platform of 59th St read "Central Park West" local and express?
:-) Andrew
Thi is a very well known bloper.I was on the D where I seen a sign that mispelled Beverley road.You know witout the last e,but if you look at the sign closely you would see a hidden sign blooper.This is how it's spelled.
Bevaliez Rod
____________
Here in Chicago, at the Grand Avenue subway station on the Red Line, there are foot-high letters carved into the tile indicating the way to EXIT OHIO STREET. These "signs" are at platform level, so they would seem to indicate either a whole separate mezzanine (!) or an exit-only stairway directly from platform to street. Needless to say, there is no exit at Ohio Street, and while exit stairs between platform and street are fairly common on the L, there are no other examples on the subway portions of the system.
I decided to go home the long way and stop off at W4 to take a closer look at the sign in question.
Indeed it does say 3 Av local. Upon closer inspection I determined that the sign was an adhesive mylar covering over the original metal sign. The white lettering appears to have been silk screened onto the black surface. The lettering was "raised" slighly rather than being flat.
Some enterprosing vandal (yes vandal) took pains to scrape off just enough of the left side of the 8 to make it appera to be a 3.
If you look closely enough you can see that the left side is not proportioned properly to have been a 3 originally.
Hmmm....well maybe I should retract my earlier postin on this, LOL
My favorite blooper is a sign at Essex St. on the (J)(M). I shot this now closed entrance and the black sign that proclaimes Essex St had blue, not brown bullets for the (J) & (M). Really !
Bill "Newkirk"
When was this?
Until the WB was closed a few years ago and the entrances on the south side of Delancey were spiffed up and opened, they had brown J/M/Z bullets even though they had (presumably) been boarded up since before the Z was created.
Maybe you were seeing the old light blue M, and the gray J looked blue, too?
eBay Item #1164651695.
Well today should be the last day of Folklife celebration on the Washington (DC) Mall. That means that #9056 will have to leave.
I was there on Friday and Saturday to see this first hand.
After leaving the escalators at Metro's Smithsonian station and making a left turn, there she was. In brilliant sunlight was our own #9056 to greet stunned tourists. All doors and windows were open but unlike the first weeks oppressive hot amd humid weather, things were more like autumn.
About 9056.
For those who couldn't see it in person, you'll be shocked that this has to be the finest Redbird condition wise. The exterior and interiors were cleaned and repainted. Please note, no rollers and brushes were used. Everything was spray painted. All scratched windows replaced. Seats were probably repainted too. All stainless steel seat frames and walls were scubbed clean, including window frames.
All number boards were made up from scratch. It looks like they cut white sheet metal to size and used peel and stick numbers as a stencil, thus painted the plate black. Three heavy duty automotive battery chargers were hooked in series to provide 36 volts to operate interior lights, head and marker lights as well as door motors! Tourists were given a chance to sit in the cab which had a brake handle and reverser key in place. You could play motorman for a few minutes. It was indeed strange when the doors were closed then opened. That distinctive click before the doors opened we are familiar with was now heard in Washington DC, not NYC !!
Two NYCT employees were on hand to answer questions. One female T/O usually works the (A) while the male T/O works the (F). I was told that the Smithsonian was footing their Metroliner fare as well as hotel accommodations.
About the tourists.
I was there about 2 hours on Friday and 2 hours on Saturday morning. I would say the majority of people were Maryland,Virginia (DC area) visitors. A few people were from NYC. It seemed the DC area folks never saw or even rode a NYC subway car. The people were captivated by the stainless steel straps. The kids couldn't resist playing on them as well as changing the roll signs. Comments ranged from "where's the graffitti" to "it looks so clean". One man from NYC stated that he rode these cars to Shea Stadium. Well, I wasn't going to be techical.
9056 did her job well and it looks like she will return to NYC. I was told by a NYCT electrical engineer that the car may return for further stripping and be dumped in the drink. What a shame, the appearance of that car looks identical to back in 1990 when it was given a GOH at 207th St shops. The TA should sell or auction it off. But with the asbestos fiasco, that might not happen.
It was a pleasure to meet and talk with some people and enjoy the unusual balmy dry breezes, uncharacteristic for DC. Of course riding Metro out to Alexandria to shoot VRE (Virginia Railway Express) was a blast. Shot the ex Amtrak F40s as well as the ex-Metra gallery cars.
Psst ! Wanna buy a subway car ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I heard similar comments when I saw her.
When I was there, they had the F t/o but also a t/o who worked the L. I also had to read all the signs on the rolls and spent about 25 minutes doing so.
Hope you enjoyed yourself!
Bill
Did you notice that the MTA/NYCT logos were not on the cars on day one? Review the photos that I have somewhere.
Virginia Division - BMT
Bill
Did you notice that the MTA/NYCT logos were not on the cars on day one? Review the photos that I have somewhere.
Virginia Division - BMT
I don't mean railfan window video, or even exterior video. I mean a video from the point of view most people see them: as a passenger on board. Just a few stops, for each car class. The sound of the doors, the windows half open, people hanging from straps, axiflow fans (singles, they're still out there) and especially (R-36) the lights blinking over switches. Act now, this is a once in a life time limited time offer.
Actually, if someone has a day off on Monday and time to spare, videotaping one of the final trips of the Redbirds on the No. 6 train would be a good idea, since there demise on the line is already two days overdue, according to Train Dude's post (since amended) late last week.
I have a trip I recorded this past May, running express on the Pelham Line from 125th St to Pelham Bay Park, using track M from 138th St all the way up.
--Mark
THIS FALL OCTOBER OR SO I WILL BE THERE TO DO JUST THAT !!
Wait a second. You don't live here locally in the City???
MATT-2AV
No, he lives in LA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
you know sometimes i know i do !! lol !!
October? If the facts are as Train Dude presented them, I'll be surprised if there are any Redbirds on the 6 in August.
we will see by then wont we ?
I'll grant you that much. We may also see next week.
(Don't get me wrong. I like the Redbirds. Overall, I'm not thrilled with their replacements, for a variety of reasons. If I had any say in these things, I'd try to find some way to keep the Redbirds running a bit longer -- if nothing else, some could be kept around for rush hour service improvements. But I don't have any say, and they're on their way out.)
being replaced by new imported non railfan window crap !!
You have to be very careful when you videotape people, even as an "amateur" or a "tourist", since they might not be amenable to you doing so. And you may have to get permission from them first. People don't even make EYE contact on the subway; throw a videocamera into the mix and you're just looking for trouble.
That said, I now have TWO videotapes of the entire mixed fleet (Redbirds, R-62s, R-142(A)s) and hope to go back and do a third one on Monday July 23rd, which just happens to be the first weekday of the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop.
I can assure you that the Reign of the Redbirds has been thoroughly documented :)
--Mark
I kinda got a bit worried there.
I was watching my tape of Money Train, and realized, "This is probably the best (and only) commercially available footage of post-GOH R-30s!!"
Anyway, I really am going to miss those blinking lights.
"Die Hard with a Vengeance" (1995) shows a real R30 dressed up as a #3, running into a simulated Wall Street station and getting blasted across the paltform by the evil terrorist.
the shooting was done here in the los angeles area union pacific railroad yard formerly called for some reason " the cornfields "
the reason it was called that escapes me big time... now the PASADENA BLUE LINE is being built right thru that same area..
I just visited the construction projects of that line being built & took tons of pictures of it as well.!!
The R36 class type can only be found on the IRT Flushing Line Subway. Recently, they have mixed R26-29 class types on the 7, but you can assume that all the cars blink when crossing a third rail gap on the line.
Long live the Redbirds ;-)
Railfan Pete
I know all about the R-36, and have deemed them (and the R-33 single) my favorite IRT class (second fav is 142A). Sorry but with exception to 8660, 7773, 7821, and that other one I dislike the other redbirds.
I managed to ride the R-36s for that short stint on the 5, and on Saturday on the 6.
And the lights blink on all R-33 singles and R-36s only, with exception to 9336. That one had the same GOH as the R-33 Mainlines, I will not miss that car (except how weird it feels watching the lights blink on the cars in front and behind you, but not your car. That was cool).
I did not see any R26-29s on the 7 this afternoon, and I doubt they have been xferred there as those cars are in far worse condition than the 36s (except 8660 and 8661, those birds will outlive the rest).
There are no R26-29s on the Flushing line. The R26-29 are only on the 2,5,6 lines. The Flushing line have R36WF, R36ML, and R33 singles.
As promised, I had a quick tour this weekend. Quite an interesting day:
Notting Hill Gate
Marylebone
Wanstead
All very similar: wooden side panels have been replaced with metal, but the treads are wooden, and a strip of wood is visible just under the handrail. All of these are the old style handrail: rough to the touch, wide and flat, and NEVER move at the same speed as the stairs.
HOWEVER for all of these, the step risers are metal, so there is very little wood left. Presumably there is not enough to be a fire hazard.
The wooden escalators at Notting Hill Gate are very short. They link the Central Line east- and westbound platforms (where one was constructed over the other). The others are longer.
Amazingly, Gants Hill is a different story. Here, the treads and most of the step risers are wood. The risers have a wonderful dark stain, and are well-polished. About one-third have been replaced with metal, but there are enough in a row to get a lovely effect. The centre (spare) escalator has mostly wooden risers also, but was not in use.
Finally, no trains at Greenford, so I was not able to get to the escalators. It is possible that these have more wood than all of the rest. Here, the escalator takes passengers from street level UP to platforms on a viaduct, and it is possible that fire regulations will therefore be less stringent. Any other Londoners able to take a look?
Max, one more location to check,although this may be a bit harder!
The special exit/entrance from Earls Court (surface) to the exhibition hall has 2 escalators either side of a central stair case.
These two are wooden and also have traditional uplighters between the banks of escalators/stairs.
Access is from a gated set of steps at the west end of the District Line platforms to a lower circulating area then via a short passageway until you see and smell wood!
.
This area is used for staff training and to show new station assistants/customer care staff how to operate and deal with escalator emergencies.
Regards
Rob:^)
Well well well.
Do the public get access to this exit only for exhibitions? Is the ideal Home Exhibition at Earl's Court, or are there any up and coming events that are sooner?
Yes -public do get to access this area on exhibition days,however the HUGE earls court '2' complex (built above the Lille Bridge depot) seems to hold more exhibitions these days.........
Rob
We all know that starting July 22 when Queensbridge shuttle trains are turned there and the new V line begins with a terminus there in the fall, that Second Avenue is going to be quite busy.
My question is, is there any way that the TA could tear down that barrierat the end of the platform and use part of the Chrystie Street connection as relay tracks for trains that end there? This way, people would always know that the northbound platform is where they can get trains in service, and that the southbound trains are out of service. Otherwise, you'll have the situation you have at Brighton Beach; getting on a train you think is leaving only to find out that the other side is.
Why should that want to?
There are already tracks at the north end to allow for switching from the SB "express" platform to the NB local track.
By the time they designed, got funding, sent the project out to bid, got it redesigned, got new approvals, etc., it will be 2004 and then there will be no need for the switches.
From what I heard they will be removing the barriers and creating a walk around platform at the south end (similar to the Canal St Station [Nassau St - BMT] which itself will soon be gone.
We all know that starting July 22 when Queensbridge shuttle trains are turned there[2nd Ave]
The Queensbridge shuttle trains will be turned at Broadway-Lafayette, most probably on the downtown express track. The Grand St Shuttle will most probably use the uptown express track at Broadway-Lafayette.
My question is, is there any way that the TA could tear down that barrierat the end of the platform and use part of the Chrystie Street connection as relay tracks for trains that end there?
The Chrystie St connections are between the Broadway-Lafayette and 2nd Ave Stations. There are only tail tracks behind the barricade at the 2nd Ave station. There is no switch behind the barricade, so no relay operation is possible. There are no switch tracks on either Chrystie st connection either.
... the situation you have at Brighton Beach; getting on a train you think is leaving only to find out that the other side is.
According to the track maps on this site, there are no physical impediments to operating a relay at Brighton Beach.
>>... the situation you have at Brighton Beach; getting on a train you think is leaving only to find out that the other side is.
According to the track maps on this site, there are no physical impediments to operating a relay at Brighton Beach<<
What he is talking about is from the passenger point of view. If there are 2 trains on the express tracks at Brighton Beach you don't always know which one is leaving first. You might be on the train on the NB track only to find that the one on the SB track is heading out first.
What he was suggesting is that they send the SB train further south and then change ends and send it back up the NB express track at Brighton Beach.
>>The Queensbridge shuttle trains will be turned at Broadway-Lafayette, most probably on the downtown express track. The Grand St Shuttle will most probably use the uptown express track at Broadway-Lafayette. <<
Are you sure about this? It would make more sense to send the trains down to 2nd Av and send them back uptown so that they would be on the proper tracks at Bway-Lafayette. To terminate at Bway-Lafayette means that the Shuttle will have switch from the local to express tracks at W4th.
Actually, the crossovers between the Brighton express tracks north of Brighton Beach station were added as part of the Chrystie St project in the 1960s, when the platforms were lengthened to accommodate 10 car trains. Prior to that, the Brighton express trains always relayed south of the station, and trains to the city always left from the northbound platform.
-- Ed Sachs
The crossover at 2nd Ave. is currently being replaced.
In fact it's not there right now.
So trains cannot reverse there until they install the
new crossover switch.
I'm moving the "Field Trip to the Beaches of Rock & Long" from Tuesday to Thursday because "... there is a strong possibility of rain Tuesday afternoon ...".
For those who didn't see the trip in this site's "Comming Events" it will start at Jay Street. Buy your FUN PASS and be at the head end at 6 PM, we'll take the first railfan window equiped R-38. One stop is planned at Rockaway Blvd. At Far Rockaway we'll transfer to LI Bus N33 (they run about every half hour). At the LIRR Long Beach station we'll either walk or take City of Long Beach bus to the beach. Was by the Turquorise establishment on the board walk last week. The kitchen was open near 8 PM, but the one employee staffing it was in the dark ... very strange. The Ice Cream section was doing a brisk business (treated my son & his wife to a birthday cone ... he's 26). There was also a live band at the bar next door.
Then it's back to the LIRR station where the N15 or RxR will get you back to the City.
Heard from a dear friend who will be joining us ... many of you will remember him from Museum tours. He'll be part of the 1/2 dozen or so confirmed attendees ... so come & join us !
Note on Main Street, Flushing ... haven't heard from anyone who can make it there at 4 PM ... e-mail me if you plan to be there or I will leave about 3:15 & have a short meeting with a MetroCard swapping friend at mid-town.
Mr t__:^)
Yup Thursday is definately a better day weatherwise as there is a strong cold front that is going to move through Tuesday afternoon, and with the extremely humid air, thunderstorms will most likely develop. Well I would still be able to make Flushing at 4pm, but if that's been changed, then I assume it's 6pm at the head end at Queens bound platform at Jay street.
Mr. T, I suppose this means no one can make
the Flushing start at 4pm... regards to your pal.
Yes, I've changed it to 3:15. One SubTalker is meeting me then. The change is do to another meet for me along the way (at mid-town). I still plan to be at Burger King at Fulton (one block from Jay Street) at 5:30 (the BMTman may be there before me, so if you don't see me, look for him), then the trip starts in earnest at 6 PM on the platform of the A train. Actually we're starting at closer to 6:15 to accomidate a couple of friends.
Mr t__:^)
A friend who knew just where to look on the MTA web site provided me with the following:
- LI Bus N33 leaves from Far Rockaway: 6:45, 7:20, 7:45, 8:20
I'm hopping we catch the 7:20
- LIRR leave from Long Beach: 7:49, 8:53, 9:57
- LI Bus N15 from Long Beach: 8:00, 8:30, 8:45, 9:00
Mr t__:^)
Yes, the trip is on for tonight ... see the Coming Events section for a full description ... the only change is that I'm leaving Main Street at 3:15 vs. 4 PM, as I'm having a short meeting with a friend at Mid-town. Still plan to be at Burger King (Fulton one block from Jay Street) at 5:30, meeting the BMTman for a light supper & at Jay Street to board the "A" train at 6 PM.
Mr t__:^)
I'll be at Flushing by 3:15pm so I'll see you then. I have decided probably going back on the 8:30 or 9pm N15 to Mineola, then getting the Oyster Bay train. It's cheaper that way.
I'll be waiting on the eastern end of Main street-Flushing subway station.
My friend that's the spot ... now have two SubTalkers who are starting this trip with me there ... it's going to be a good one !
Mr t__:^)
To those who are transit employees or long time subscribers to this board, acronyms are a space saver. To new members, such as myself, they are confusing and leave me guessing.
T/O Train Operator?
GO General Order?
C/R Conductor?
It would be great if somebody would publish a glossary once a month for new subscribers.
Michael
Who left NY more than 25 years ago and wants to come back when he retires.
There's already a glossary in the FAQ available at the top of the index page.
Picked up a copy of the July issue of RailPace.
On the back cover is a shot of the Electric City Trolley Museum's center door Red Arrow (Philly) car #76 in front of the Lackawanna RxR Station at Scranton, PA(now a hotel, that I've stayed in BTW). It's on the trolley trackage not the steam train trackage. The steam trackage also still see freight service.
Make a week-end of it ... do a A baseball game, a mine tour (including a ride into the mine), some shopping (mall right there), and some fine dinning ... I did all four with some baseball fans.
Mr t__:^)
I live near there, so I'm waiting until the trolly runs into the tunnel before I fork over the $50 or whatever they charge to ride.
Wow, is it realy that much ? I don't remember the 13 mile steam ride being that high. Branford went up this year to $6.00 ... we have 5 car to choose from in regular ops.
Mr t__:^)
It's not... the combination fare at Steamtown (museum and excursion ride) is $16.00, and you can purchase just the ride or just the museum tour for somewhat less.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, but how much is the Trolley Musuem and Trolley ride? That's the issue here, not Steamtown NHS's ticket prices. $16 for a good museum and a nice real STEAM train ride is reasonable. But from what I remember, the price to go to the Trolley museum and ride the trolley a few feet is a little high.
I remember Riding the A Train a few weeks ago, and i saw someone attempt to walk between Cars on a R44 A Train. I was about to tell him it was locked, but he pulled and it opened!!!! This is a Serious safety violation! Can't they fire Both the Motorman and Conductor for this?
NOT GOOD! I don't think they can be fired because no one knows which crew unlocked the door. On the Staten Island Railroad, you can go thru the cars. I think it's because the line has no turns. Imagine going thru a R40 slant with no safety rails like they were originally. "It's too hot in here, Marge. Let's go to the next car." (Slip. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crunch. Thump.) "Gee, Fred. These new trains sure have a bumpy ride." Yeah, I know I'm insane, so no derogitory replies. ^_^
Do it on the SIR when a cop is on board you will get a ticket. (Even though the cop walks through the cars). You are not allowed to pass through cars on the SIR and signs do point this out that the storm doors are for emergacny use only.
Even when the train is stopped at a station?
I DID NOT know that. Thank you.
What are you thanking me for? I asked a question! I've never ridden SIR, and now that I know it's possible I'd like to move between cars when I do, but not at the expense of a ticket.
He was thanking me I think.
Yup the doors are unlocked but I've witness a uniformed cop give an unsafe riding ticket to someone who went throuh. As usual it started off as a warning but the guy had to prove his point and this lady cop wrote him up.
Only time I passed through cars on an SIR train was when it was waiting at the station.
John, with your seemingly endless bad luck with public transit, if I were you, I'd sit down, fasten my seatbelt, close my eyes and pray I get 'there' before something happens.
Anybody who wants to walk from car to car on the R44 or R46 class has a serious death wish. Those doors aren't locked for nothing!
wayne
Do not get into the "fire them" mentality. I'm quite sure that you may not be aware of all the facts and even if the crew did forget to lock a door, does it call for firing? Perhaps the door lock was defective and the crew reported it. Perhaps the dispatcher ordered the crew to take the train anyway. Perhaps the door was vandalized in route or the lock mechanism or the electric release failed en route. The other day I was on a southbound B train and found 3 unlocked end doors. I had the crew stop the train - notify control center and correct the condition. No cause for any major actions. The line superintendent can and will investigate the incident. However, if you fire an employee for leaving an end door unlocked, what do you do for running a home signal? Cut off a hand? Cut off a head? Discipline should correct be used to correct an undesirable behavior, not destroy your workforce.
Absolutely,
I have noticed that some people on this board have an anti-union/worker attitude. You correct in noting the workers very well may not be at fault. There are many factors that could cause such a problem. As to why you would even think of firing someone (is it so serious that doors on a 75-footer are open when ALL smaller cars are open by rule).
Piggo
Do not get me wrong, I take customer safety very seriously. (And to answer your question, yes - it is a serious safety violation but if no one is hurt, there is no urgent need for action.) I think that leaving the end door open on a 75 foot car could be a fatal mistake. However, my point was why pull the trigger before we know that the right person is in the gunsight? Investigate, determine cause and/or blame and then use discipline as a tool - not a weapon.
But why is it a "serious" safety violation, if many other cars operate with unlocked doors? Is there something I'm not aware of?
Thanks
Piggo
The rulebook requires that 75 foot car's end doors be locked at all times (R44 R46 R68 & R68A's). Anyone caught between cars when the train is navagating a tight curve will get a personal introduction to the anticlimber I hear.
Did the "blue" indication light fail as well?
"Anyone caught between cars when the train is navagating a tight curve will get a personal introduction to the anticlimber I hear."
What is a anticlimber BTW?
Anticlimber is just what it sounds like. It's the steel deck outside of the end door or storm door. People step on them to cross from car to car. Their real purpose is in the case of a hard add or collision, the anticlimber helps prevent one car from climbing over another - causing more damage.
The big problem with the 75 footers is the outrageous SWING at the end of the cars on a curve ... if you're out there when the car goes into a curve, you will be tossed overboard. That's the reason why.
OK, that makes sense, thanks again
Piggo
>>> Do not get into the "fire them" mentality. <<<
Steve;
You don't understand, he's waiting to be called for job with the TA and wants the list to move faster. :-)
Tom
Hell of a way to get your job. Not so far fetched though. Now if word gets out that an employee has been fired, retired or died, all anyone asks is what was his seniority?
This reminds me of Gilbert's and Sullivan's operetta "The Mikado." Not because Japan has a subway but because the Mikado's rule for punishment was "to let the punishment fit the crime."
Michael
One thing I notice while riding on the R44/ R-46 class cars. Usually on the Fulton St part of the A line in Brooklyn, you see Asian people selling batteries and stuff on the train (A common sight to us Subway commuters). I have seen a few of them with KEYS to unlock the R-44/46 cars, I have never seen this done on the R-68 Cars. Any Idea where I can get a key like that? lol
I would guess EBAY hahaha...
Please, anyone with a screwdriver can unlock storm doors on 75' cars. If you're good you can use a housekey. It's probably not the fault of the crew if someone opens the door that way and doesn't ensure the door locks behind.
As has been stated in a previous thread, several battery sellers and "food for life" collectors have the key. They may have forgotten to lock it.
A hard yank in some cases is enough to unlock the door. I have never tried this, but have seen it happen.
I once saw an R-68a B train with all the storm (and transverse cab) doors unlocked. I told the conductor about this, and she said none of your business.
>>>>I once saw an R-68a B train with all the storm (and transverse cab) doors unlocked. I told the conductor about this, and she said none of your business.
Next time, bang her in. Never tolerate abusive behavior.
"Next time, bang her in."
I think that a little clarification is in order here. I'm quite sure, by his comment, Zman is suggesting that you report her. I'm sure that he was not suggesting anything requiring close physical contact.
"anything requiring close physical contact. "
In the unlocked cab??
Hahaha..................>G<
>>>>>Can't they fire Both the Motorman and Conductor for this?
If somebody gets hurt or killed, then the C/R could face heavy disciplinary charges (including dismissal) if it is proven that there was a known blue light condition, and the C/R failed to take action. The T/O would most likely be held blameless as he is not required to look alongside the train.
This is only a serious problem here in NYC. two years ago, I was in Toronto, where they operate 75' cars. These trains don't even have locks on the storm doors! Apparently, the only thing that stops people from walking between cars (or off the front or rear of the train) is fear of a ticket. At the time, the ticket carried a $53 Canadian fine.
METROCARD MANIA BOOK - Fun With Used MetroCards!
This beautiful paperback book is published by Price Stern & Sloan. (Penguin Putnam) It includes over 30 different projects using NYC MetroCards. Games, magic tricks, toys. Great for kids from 8 to adult. To order send $5 each + $3.00 (s&h) (outside USA $6.00 s&h) in US money, check or money order made out to: Michael Makman. Send order to: Professor Putter PO Box 755, Planet Station New York , NY 10024-0539
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. The supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order
made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Off topic:
You drive a Focus right? I saw you driving on 88st a month ago or so, never bothered to tell ya heh...
It's not really off-topic. But I think the self plugs and nothing more is getting um... repetitive.
What amazes me is that we've been hearing about this for the better part of 2 years now. But supply is limited. To what, the next decade?
Peace,
ANDEE
I bought one two years ago ... it's nice, but not a great MC Catalogue. If you collect MC Holders, you'll like it better.
Mr t__:^)
Hehe, I hate to brag about things but I just bought the last set of the MTH R21 subway cars from the local hobby shop. I saw them in the window and I fell in love :) Anyway, they're gonna stay in the box for now locked up in the closet for now, until I get some track and enough guts to acutally unwrap them :)
Shawn.
My local hobby shop had 60 sets. he had 4 with locosound and 56 with protosound. He has 8 left, all with protosound and Mikes is not producing any more.
This weekend I did the coupler conversion on mine. It takes about 20 minutes per car. To do it right you need the 4 short couplers supplied with the set and 3 more - 7 in all. I have two curves on my layout with 032 curves. You can't believe how great the cars look now. The pantographs almost 'kiss' on the curves.
I can't wait for the R-17s which I assume will not be so long in coming. I've also decided to buy a set of the r-32s and build a Franklin Shuttle line for them.
And if my wife reads this - the sets are about $75.00 each, honey!
Are you saying that you converted to short couplers and they take the O32 curves without pantograph damage?
It's tight - very tight, Karl and I walked them around the first time but yes, the cars do make it without damage.
I would have sworn that it couldn't be done on those cars. They sure look bad with the long couplers on them. It looks like I have a conversion project to do.
Out of curiosity, why did you convert seven instead of six? Are you planning ahead for a future two-car add-on set?
I didn't like the look of the long coupler sticking out at the end of the train. For another $3.00 I could afford to be happy. Besides that car may not always be at the end of the train - especially if I mix them witht he 17s.
BTW - there is one 032 curve coming out of my yard that's 180 degrees. I have yet to try my R-21s there.
Trade Dude: They worked on 0-32 curves? Are you sure you don't mean 0-42?
I tried them on an 0-42 curve and the pantograph gates touched when the trains stopped. I think that's why MTH recommends an 0-54 curve as a minimum with the short couplers.
I'm debating whether or not to remove the powered couplers. They're not nearly as obnoxious as the long manual couplers, and they might be useful for "yard" moves.
I have attempted to double-head two sets, but unfortunately, the "Station Stop" sequence generates random sounds, and thus different "dwell" times at the stations, which causes one train to re-start before the other one, which in turn causes derailments. We'll see how this works when DCS finally comes out. I have reversed the wiring in one powered unit, so it starts in reverse (I use it at the end of the 8-car train), and the head and tail lights are in reverse sequence.
BTW: I succeeded in double-heading a Protosound R-42 with a Non-Proto unit, using a hard-wired lashup. It took a whole bunch of phone calls and e-mails to QSI to get it right. It involved removing two jumpers from the non-Proto unit, cutting a "trace" on the underside of the DCRU board, and wiring a cable from the Protosound board to the Top the the DCRU (with the horn board removed). I can now run a 10-car R-42 train, Station stops and all.
In fairness, the curve was done with gargraves track and a template. As I said, I have one 180 degree 032 segment using Ross track. I will test them there next. I'd be terribly disappointed if it turns out that I have to normalize some of the couplers. The cars look great as is.
when i was coming from school on friday, i saw a flushing redbird car with the sign Shuttle where it suppose to say <7> local or express. why would it have a shuttle roll sign when the deadbirds are long gone from the shuttle?
Standard set of rollsigns for all redbirds. They can be used for any shuttle. Someone probably changed it and didn't put it back.
Someone like me probably changed it to the S, wait I did that to the 6...Well anyone can change it so someone probably changed it, the T/O was drunk and forgot to switch it...
The roll sign 'handles' are designed different depending on which car type you ride. Some 7 trains have 4-direction handles, where anyone is free to turn it to switch the sign, if someone has the liberty to do so.
And some are just small metal disks with a tiny hole in the center which will be in need of a small rod or other instrument to turn the roll signs.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
click here!
Shouldn't that be a site for St. Louis fans?
No.....
Red Sox fans.
damn!! if fenway gets destroyed is wrigley field in chicago next ? just like the railfan window in chicago is gone !! lol !!
The archives is back (for Subtalk only at this point). The link is at the top of the index page.
The defaults are to show the most recent 500 messages in the archives, in chronological non-threaded order, with the most recent at the top. (Anything more recent can be found in the main system!). You can change the criteria and display messages by author, subject, or time range.
The archive database is very big and slow. If "archives" queries
begin to load down the machine a limiting solution will be turned on
to limit archive searches to no more than one at a time. So please don't go nuts.
Also, the aforementioned searching by subject and poster are now no longer "exclusive", you can use both at the same time on the main Talks.
Enjoy,
Dave
One other new thing...
I put up the really, really old subtalk archives (1996-early 1998). I had to massage them into the format that the current archives are using which you will notice wasn't 100% reliable. The dates are wrong in the index as are some of the authors. But the message text should be intact.
Enjoy!
-Dave
Oh yeah, where are they?
Subtalk 1998-present archives
Subtalk 1996-1998 archives
Bustalk archives
Thanks.
Any particular reason you're calling us fiends? I know we can be annoying at times, but still...
Hmm. Archive Fiend. Dope Fiend. Are you saying we're addicted, Dave?
Some of you, maybe. Actually if you look back in the archives, there's a lot of inquiries about the archives. So I figured putting them up would finally give some people the fix they needed ;-)
-Dave
I made the mistake of asking for everything. Oops. Sorry if I bogged down your machine -- I sure did mine. Now I know better.
Threaded view doesn't seem to work except on the very old SubTalk archive.
> Threaded view doesn't seem to work except on the very old SubTalk
> archive.
Looks fine to me. Except there is a period of messages that have no threading information. But if you go to the archives, click reconfigure, select threaded, and view the new index with no other chnages you'll see the threads work just fine for 90% of the messages.
Some of the messages (from around when I first cut over to a database driven WebBBS) don't have the threading information (forgot to save it out of the database). But I don't imagine that's more than a couple thousand messages (out of 249,312 in the archives between Subtalk, Old Subtalk, and Bustalk). Maybe you just happened to find the ones with no threading info. Other than that it seems to me that threading works just fine.
Or maybe it isn't clear that the Archives don't honor your cookies. If you want to see threads you have to select it on the reconfigure page each time you change your search criteria. The default is Chronological since that is the option that takes the least CPU to generate.
It seems to be working now. At first, it was simply ignoring the settings I gave it.
Thank you very much for restoring the archives. I really appreciate it.
- Lyle Goldman
My 2001 Second Avenue Subway Plan is nearly complete. It has details of where the line is going, station details guide, even track maps. I'm just tying up loose ends right now. I have to thank David P. for his permission to use pictures and the Second Avenue Timeline section.
When this is complete I plan to create a version, that I would be glad to give to this site, and another in PDF format.
P.S. the R.P.A. wants to see my plan.
Christopher Rivera
Good for you!
Let's try to smack that sucker into a nice BVE route. I'd be great to drive...
You play BVE....cool! Well if you know how to make it, then I will give you the information. But thats up to you.
I would love to make it, with the 5 different routes available.
I'm in the process of doing the Franklin Shuttle. You can e-mail me for some cheesy screenshots...
Check my site. Go to the route database, and you'll see 2nd Avenue as one of my ideas.
E-mail me (link provided above) when you finish it.
Check my site. Go to the route database, and you'll see 2nd Avenue as one of my ideas.
E-mail me (link provided above) when you finish it.
I'll leave you to do it. I'll work on my shuttle. It's short but much can be done with it.
> I'm in the process of doing the Franklin Shuttle.
What exactly are you "doing" with the Franklin Avenue Shuttle?
- Lyle Goldman
Do the MU cars have a built-in "dead man's feature" like the NYC subway cars do?
What prevents an LIRR car from running a red signal? I've never seen a tripper or anything like that on LIRR tracks. What would stop a berserk engineer from running into the rear of another train if (s)he so desired?
Cab signaling system will even stop the train when exceeding speed limits well before running a red signal.
I believe the controller has a deadman's feature but I'm unsure.
There is a deadman's capabilty on the throttle. There is also Automatic Speed Control System, that will drop the ASC signal indicator to a 0 Code and in turn the train will automatically dump.
There is also Automatic Speed Control System, that will drop the ASC signal indicator to a 0 Code and in turn the train will automatically dump.
I do not think that is the case. This would preclude LIAR trains from working permissively, which I have been told they do. When working permissivly the lead train in the track eats all the cab signal code. Furthermore, the LIAR has to run into Amtrak's Penn Station which is running on the PRR 5 speed cab signaling ATC system. On that system a no-code is a RESTRICTING cab signal, which has a 20 mph speed limit. Because the whole of Penn Station is 15mph running all cab signals given there are no-codes.
There is a, a deadman, and b, and ASC system. The ASC system will NOT stop a train, in fact, it'll allow 15mph operation right past a stop and stay signal. However, everytime the bell goes off, you must hit the acknowlage button within a few secs of the train will dump.
BTW, the LIRR ASC system is aspects, I believe. I know the new diesels indicate 7 speeds on their ASC boxes.
The origional Cab Signal system was 3 aspect (15, 30, MAS). These were modified in the 50's to include automatic speed control, via a few dump valves and a speed pickup on the trailing truck of the car. For some reason, the PRR never thought this to be important when the cab signal system was installed (teens, I believe, and limited to electric land). Nor did the GG-1s have it until the more sophisticated systems were introduced (at the ICC's "request", i.e. they were forced to).
BTW, I've read that the GG-1s could in fact run in cab signaled mode on New Haven tracks - apparently, the code system must have been used to send signal indications through the tracks, and thus the pickups could pickup and display this, but the codes aren't carried through interlockings.
The PRR/LIRR system was "ontinuous" cab signalling. I believe a number of western roads used "intermittant" systems that had loops of wire in places.
The LIRR also has loops in places too (stations), I'm not sure what they do. ASC cutout? A way to send cab signals to the train without interfacing with the track? Something else?
The PRR CSS was first installed in 1922 and 1924 and later in the 30's to it's full extent. The ICC only mandated the Stop and Forestaller and all that jazz was in the early 30's. Most PRR electrics (P5 and GG1 included) were delivered w/ cab signaling equipment. I always thought that the PRR CSS started w/ 4 aspects. It was 4 aspect by 1948 and I have a picture to prove it. I'll post a query to the PRR-Signaling e-mail list.
The origional Cab Signal system was 3 aspect (15, 30, MAS).
PRR Cab signals never display speeds and were never intended to. They displayed RESTRICTING, APPROACH and CLEAR (and APPROACH MEDIUM). The LIAR ASC system is unique is displaying speeds only. I feel I have to agree with the PRR in that CSS's primary job is to display signal aspects to the engineer, not speeds.
The PRR/LIRR system was "ontinuous" cab signalling. I believe a number of western roads used "intermittant" systems that had loops of wire in places.
The Union Pacific does and the Illinios Central did have a 2 aspect cab signaling that might be intermittant like you describe. They can display CLEAR or RESTRICTING. The rest of the time they are dark (which might sort of count as an aspect).
/*PRR Cab signals never display speeds and were never intended to.*/
Yes, the PRR system didn't, but the LIRR system did, or at least did by the time the MP-54s were canned in the late 60's. I know because this is what 4137's cab at Seashore has on it's ADU. I believe the '54s were always like this, too.
The LIAR system was changed to "Speed Control" in 51-52.
But if ASC lets a train operate past a red signal in any way, couldn't a train wander onto an occupied track and have a collision?
Yes, but Engineers are highly trained professionals that are required to have FEDERAL certification. They have to re-qualify every couple of years and are required to have intimate route and signal knowledge. They aren't some yokel T/O that can't even be trusted to obey a perminent speed restriction. If any engineer goes past a home signal set at STOP they will most likley be fired on the spot.
I'm quite sure the BLE might have some other ideas about that.
The ASC system aspects are roughly equivalent to the following signals:
80 - clear
45 - advance approach/ approach medium
30 - approach/ medium clear
15 - slow clear
0 - restricting/stop and proceed
The remaining aspects, 60 and 70 show up only occasionally, and have no equivalents.
When the train passes a signal set to restricting, the ASC goes to 0, and full service brakes are applied. The engineer must then reset the brakes by turning the controlled to full brake and back, and can now proceed at not exceeding 15 mph, watching out for the train in front. This can be observed at Jamaica, where it is not uncommon for one train to be enteringn a station while a train in front of it is leaving on the same track.
The loops of wire at the stations are probably for testing the ASC system, since I have only seen them at places where there are ASC test boxes.
Thank you for that explanation
"it is not uncommon for one train to be enteringn a station while a train in front of it is leaving on the same track."
One of the most annoying things that a passenger can experience is for a train or subway to be held short of a platform when the platform track is unoccupied. Thankfully LIRR (and SEPTA) handle that sensibly.
Thankfully LIRR (and SEPTA) handle that sensibly.
Don't thank them, thank Rule 291. "Stop, then proceed at Restricted Speed until the entire train has: 1. Passed a more favorable fixed signal. or 2. Entered non-signaled DCS territory or 3. Passed a location where a more favorable cab signal was received. Where a letter G (grade marker) or a letter R (restricting marker) is displayed in addition to number plate as part of these aspects, freight trains may observe the signals as though Res tricting, Rule 290, were displayed."
LIRR MU's have a dead mans feature. His or her hand has to be pressing down on the controller at all times or the train will not move. They also have ASC-automatic speed control. If the train is going too fast in a block, an alarm bell sounds. The engineer MUST reduce his speed or else the train stops cold. Getting nailed by a kicker on the main line is not a good thing.
Passed by 207 yesterday and found these sad dying redbirds of all models stripped of thier most crucial parts. No windows, couplers, shoe beams, undercarriage components or rollsigns. See for yourself.
Another image: http://www.trainweb.org/nyrail/nyct/scrap/redbirds_207_2.jpg
-Dan
New York Area Railroads
Thanks! Say what you will about the fate of the redbirds but those are really cool photos...
-Dave
Thanks Dave, you can put them on on this site if you want. I've never seen anything like these before yesterday.
-Dan
There's 7750, the first of the R-26s. Farewell, fine feathered friends.
Bye, bye, (Red)birdies....
Oh, man, I see R-26 #7750 there. That was the oldest R-26 in use on the entire system. Sorry to see it go. :(
I made it a point to watch for 7750 every time I rode the #5........
I particularly note "no rollsigns." Ah, gone are the days when cars went to the torch with all their parts intact for (ahem) historic rescue.
I suppose these will show up at the Transit Museum shop?
I particularly note "no rollsigns" ... I suppose these will show up at the Transit Museum shop?
I hope so, but IIRC (and as posted here), the R-68/68A signs went into a dumpster :(.
I was at 207 St a couple of weeks ago, and they were sadly thrown into the dumpster.
Wow... were you able to get some pictures of the R110B? I think I see an R142/R142A in the background of the second picture...
All Hail 7750...
the inaugural car of the r26 class..
the OLDEST living red...
And I rode her on the #5 as recently as January. What a sad sight.
Anyone interested in some of those number plates?
I for 1.
psssst... MTA. there's MONEY to be made there...
& knowing us SubTALKers, the line'd be around the
corner in NO time!! :)
Gosh, and I just saw 7750 a month ago today headed downtown on the No. 5 train headed downtown from 125th St. and she looked so, so alive. I never thought she'd go that so suddenly :-)
>>> No windows, couplers, shoe beams, undercarriage components or rollsigns. <<<
Are these the ones that are going swimming?
Tom
Cannonball, anyone? Belly flop, perhaps?
Notice also, no doors or seats either. Some cars still have windows, but not for long I suspect. Look at the cellmates.
I will bet that they leave 207 on flatbeds, since the couplers have been pulled/salvaged. There are going to be a lot of shop trucks available.
You can still see the shadows of the poles inside. I wonder how much those things weigh now...
Wow, I can't believe it. The old birds are going out of service. I didn't think it would be this soon. But it is nice to finally have some modern cars on the 2 line. Farewell, old birdies, your time has come.
the railfan window is gone forever !! ( sigh ) !!
Not yet. You've still got the IND and BMT divisions (R32, 38, 40 ,42).
while they still last like the JMZLQ lines .......right ??
My predictions for 2002:
The JMZ, definitely. The L, definitely not. The Q, N, E, R, V: yep. The 7: Yes, but only because the best cheap, logical way to solve the "isolated car" situation with the R-62 transverse cabs is to remove the transverse cabs. The #7 will never become Opto (ATO maybe) and will never need the transverse cabs.
My predictions for 2007:
The JMZ, most assuredly, with R-32s. Same with the C. Nothing else, though.
yep
And some trains on the 3 (and possibly the 7).
And the MU's on the LIRR.
The M-7 will be transverse cab. LIRR, not for long...
So, so sad :-(
A few weeks ago I experienced a huge coincidence riding the subway over the weekend. Thought some people would appreciate it:
My stop is the 2-3 Grand Army Plaza stop in Brooklyn. Normally, only the 2-3 stops there, but apparently due to construction at Atlantic Ave, 4 trains have been stopping there on the weekends. I'm waiting for the 2 train at Grand Army Plaza, and a 4 pulls in. I was happy about this because this is the train that goes to my office. I went to the center car and asked the C/R if the Brooklyn-bound 4 trains were also stopping at Grand Army for my ride back home. He said yes, and I went on my way, very pleased.
After working for about 4 or 5 hours, I leave my office and head towards the 4. I really wanted to make sure the C/R was right before, so I waited in the center to ask again. The train pulls in, and I ask the guy if it will be stopping at Grand Army. He says "You asked me that before!!" It was the same guy, on his route back! I felt like a total idiot for asking twice, but he was cool and we laughed about it. I ended up sitting in the same seat, of the same car, of the same train which I took that same morning. What a coincidence...
Anyone else ever experience any "moments" like this on your adventures through the system?
Yep. During my years riding the E and F lines in Queens, I encountered the same conductor many times. I even got to know their station announcing styles.
On the F there's one guy in the morning who has a very distinctive voice. His announcements sound like they must be pre-recorded, because they never change:
"Attention. We awre delaayed becawse there awre traains aheaad awv aws. We expeact to be moving shawtly."
:-) Andrew
Well, I do see the same 2 train conductor many days in a row at the same time.
In 1996, from the time before I got my first ride on the R110A until the end of that year, I used to hear the same conductor on the 2 line, his train entering the 3rd Av/149th St Station at EXACTLY 7:20am. Before he worked on the R110A, he used to announce the station stop and ALSO announce the transfers to the buses (e.g., "This is 125th street/Lenox Av. Transfer for the M60 to LaGuardia Airport, M100, M101, and Bx15 buses"). When he worked the R110A, the only announcements he made were to passengers to step all the way in and stand clear of the doors. I don't see him now;my schedule is different now.
CWalNYC
Andrew - I used to get that conductor a lot! His sing-songy announcement is probably the only thing I miss about the F. They can't be prerecorded, though: once, he had a cold. He hit the same notes, but his voice was a little hoarser :).
On two (2) separate occasions in the year 2000, while
on my way to interview for 2 different internships,
I tally up the following scorecard:
January 2000 rode the 1 line to an interview...
car # 2178.... I landed the gig.
(the following semester)
August 2000 rode the 1 line to another interview...
car # 2178...... I landed the gig, again.
.
Theres one car on the No.1/9 Line I always have bad luck on.
Car 2320
1st time: Cut out a slow closing door
2nd Time: B/O PA and got stuck in a area with power off
3rd time: Almost hit with object but I seen it coming so window went up right away and the coffee hit the window.
4th time: I was a passenger and the train was taken out of service do to the Vapor key getting stuck in the Master Door Control.
Yup, I did.....in December. I was shocked to ride a rare slant R40 J train to work (the 6:16). I was completely shocked to find the same unusual train pulling into Fulton Street at 4:30 PM!
Yes -
Once, when I was young and traveling with my father, we got this conductor on the F train and the next day, got the very same conductor on the B train.
He was either Hatian or Jamaican (the island, not Queens) judging by his accent.
Our LL train would often have the same crew every Saturday morning in 1969-70. It left 8th Ave. around 8:30-ish. That was right about the time I started riding in the first car on Brooklyn-bound trains. Prior to that, I would be in the middle of the train by the conductor's station, and every Saturday we'd have the same conductor. I'd always watch him assume the position on the R-7/9s at each station. Then, when I started riding up front, we always seemed to have the same motorman.
Funny thing, I never rode up front on a Brooklyn-bound Canarsie train of BMT standards, and still cannot recall ever seeing the conductor at one of the button consoles. I rode on the standards for two years and must have never been in the second or fifth cars. Manhattan-bound was another story. I always rode in the first car from about the second or third week of Saturday school in 1967 up until the school moved to Richmond Hill in 1970.
In the morning, i ride the C (or A) from Jay (or high st.) to Chambers. I ride in the front in the AM, the rear in the PM. Manytimes, i'll check the # of the C train I'm on. At least 5 or 6 times (maybe more) when I get on a C in the Noon hours, I'll be riding in the same car. (whether it's an R-38 or R-32). But, this has never happened to me while I was on an A train. And, my trains never have the same crews.
Hi Can anyone tellme if there is a magazine i can subscribe to which deals with the New York Subway
Many thanks Bob
Magazine, no. But there's the newsletter of the New York Division Electric Railroaders' Association which comes out monthly...
Actually, there is a periodical called Mass Transit Magazine. That is, if it's still being published. It doesn't deal exclusively with New York, though.
Mass Transit is another one that's popular in the industry. I actually get 4 different magazines - the two mentioned plus "Railway Age" and "Progressive Railroading".
Mass Transit & Metro are "trades", i.e. industry publications, however the articles have improved greatly in the past year or two.
Recently one did features on NYC & Boston.
Mr t__:^)
Magazines on the Subway? There aren't any.
Just come here daily and you will get to know everything that is going on (one way or the other).
There are several trade journals that deal with subway, commuter rail and busses. One of them is "Metro'. There are several others but they are not cheap. However, they are free to managers in the industry.
I have a question for those of you who live outside NYC area and/or get to travel more than I do these days.
We all know "The Map" is free and I think it's probably the nicest FREE map available. But what about other systems (Chi, Boston, SF, Atlanta, London, Paris, wherever)?
Do they charge for maps?
How much?
Are the maps any good?
If they charge for the maps, in your opinion are they a good value for the money?
If the maps are free, would you be willing to pay something if they were better? How much?
An example--the SEPTA map now covers City and Surburban and it's a beautiful street level map, but it's up to $8.00. IMO, this is counterproductive. I would think that this high price would keep demand down to railfans and people who REALLY need or want it. The PTC maps that it succeeded were 10 to 25 cents during the 50's and even with inflation I don't think the map should be more than $3 now, maybe $5 tops. Also, they don't include a magnifying glass, which my tired old eyes could badly use on this very condensed map.
Information? Opinions? Thanks.
London, Paris, Amsterdam rail maps = Free
I think I had to actually buy a London bus map.
SF = I think it was $3.00. It's usable as a street map since SF is mostly bus/surface transit...
-Dave
Did the SF include BART and the surface lines?
--Al
MUNI surface lines (and tunnel). I don't remember about BART but I suspect the route was marked. I think it also included 3rd-party buses like AC Transit that entered SF.
BART and CalTrain routes and stations are also listed on the MUNI Transit map.
They CHARGE for SF maps now? Tsk tsk. Try calling BART. I believe that their maps are still free.
I didn't find any free *complete* Amsterdam Transit maps when I was there in Nov., 2000. There is a truncated version in an informational flyer on using the system, but this covers the central area only. The Circle Tram, Line 20, flyer just lists the Line 20 stops and nearby attractions. It doesn't list the connecting lines, however. They do have a complete transit map available for sale at the information/sales office in front of Centraal Station. I don't remember the exact price, about $2.00, IIRC.
>>> I think I had to actually buy a London bus map.<<<
Correct. They now cost Ł1. Printed by a private company and available at the LT Museum (and no doubt elsewhere).
>>>SF = I think it was $3.00. It's usable as a street map since SF is mostly bus/surface transit... <<<
The SF Transit map is $2.00 in bookstores, news agents, etc. The maps in the MUNI website are scanned versions of this map, are available as a PDF download, and they also can be ordered from MUNI.
http://www.transitinfo.org/cgi-bin/muni/map/system
The same map is $2.75 in the SF Visitors Center at the foot of Powell St. Peek under the red price sticker and it's the same $2.00 map from MUNI.
(But the place was newly rehabbed, additional racks of free literature, air-conditioned, and security to keep the "spare change" artists at bay while you browsed - worth the 75˘ up-carge.)
You can also buy MUNI Transit Passports there as well - with no up-charge. Cash/Visa/Mastercard.
>>>>>I didn't find any free *complete* Amsterdam Transit maps when I was there in Nov., 2000.
I did find one when I was there in 2000 as well. It didn't show 100%, but it did show 75-80% (not including the rural routes) and it was free.
>>>>> I think I had to actually buy a London bus map.
Correct. They now cost Ł1. Printed by a private company and available at the LT Museum (and no doubt elsewhere).
For the complete map, that is true. But the LUL also publishes many free bus maps, including the Central London Bus Guide.
There is another London map of interest. Well it's free, but it isn't really a map.
The LUL publishes many guide books that are free of charge. Each individual guide book (I believe that there are about 15 different guide books) reflects that particular area of the city. For instance, the Shepherd's Bush Guide has line maps on individually dedicated pages that show a line map of the route of the tube line or bus, the frequencies, journey times, and first & last buses/trains. It also contains a synopsis of the area's attractions and a pull out local bus/rail map. The SB Guide is 140 pages+fold out map and is free. If you can, call up and ask for one. It's a keeper!
While the full London bus map may cost, LT issue free sectional maps. I picked up a free set of four from the London Transit Museum in Covent Garden last month.
London Transport Tube maps and bus maps are available free by e-mail request from LT. they will also send torist booklets and special event info. (all info is sent by snail mail in about 7 to 10 days from request).
web site
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk/
Send e-mail request and return address to
travinfo@londontransport.co.uk
I wish NYC MTA would take e-mail request for maps.
SF is the only one of those listed that i have paid for.
All the rest i have sent a request for e-mail and had them within a week.
Chicago's maps are free and are VERY useful, both the CTA and RTA maps.
The RTA map is basically the CTA map on one side and the metropolitan region -- Metra lines and Pace (suburban bus) routes -- on the other side. The CTA map does show in-city Metra stations as well as CTA trains and buses. What's on the back side of CTA's map? Mainly descriptions of the fare system, a list of all the CTA bus lines (routing and first bus/last bus), and details on the L system (accessible stations, stations with parking, first train/last train, etc.).
In addition, I think the CTA maps have two big advantages over the MTA maps: 1) They are to scale, and 2) they show rapid transit AND bus routes. This would probably be impossible on The Map, given NYC's geography and sheer complexity. As you mention, the RTA map is also very useful.
Another cool map I found for free -- and I understand this map is very rare -- is a complete MBTA map showing rapid transit, commuter rail and bus routes. The main map shows the entire Boston region, and the reverse side is a more detailed map of the central city and Cambridge. Most "T" maps show only the transit lines in that artificial geometric pattern, but this map is actually to scale. I found a small stack of these maps at the Braintree stop at the end of the Red Line, but haven't seen any other copies of it anywhere else.
-- David
Chicago, IL
NYC bus maps (one per borough) show the subway routes as well, although they're not emphasized.
And the bus maps are to scale.
The area covered by the Los Angeles MTA is so vast that it issues maps for sections of the city: San Fernando Valley, West Side, South Central, South Bay, East Side, etc. They are obviously computer generated, of passable quality, and free when available. System maps, probably from the same database, are posted in most subway stations, but the scale is such that one needs the proverbial magnifying glass to read it.
>>> The area covered by the Los Angeles MTA is so vast that it issues maps for sections of the city: <<<
Each section is downloadable from the LAMTA web site as a PDF file.
Tom
I actually have a system wide map of the old RTD from 1990. Let me tell you, it ain't pretty and is practically useless. The section maps are of vastly higher quality.
My commute home this afternoon was horrible - the F from Jay Street to Union Turnpike usually takes about 45 minutes; this ride took well over an hour. (It was truly worthy of Qtraindash7.)
We left Jay Street at about 3:30pm, only to be held several times, for differing reasons:
- 5 minutes at Broadway-Lafayette, presumably for transfers;
- nothing at West 4th, where F's usually ARE held;
- 14 minutes at 23rd Street, due to BIE ahead;
- 7 minutes at 34th Street, for transfers;
- 3 minutes between 34th and 42nd, waiting for signal to clear;
- 2 minutes north of 50th, waiting for an E to clear;
- 3 minutes at Queens Plaza while a detoured F-via-Crosstown crossed to the express track.
PLUS, while I waited for my F at Jay Street, a southbound E (signed for World Trade and carrying passengers) arrived on the southbound 8th Avenue track. The dispatcher announced that the E would be a "Queeens-bound local to Euclid Avenue," which confused everybody because Euclid is in Brooklyn.
With so much disruption in one day, I've got to ask: Were these real emergencies, or is the Straphangers Campaign gearing up for another "subway survey" by sabotaging service yet again?
Why not relate this story to the Straphangers?
"- 3 minutes at Queens Plaza while a detoured F-via-Crosstown crossed to the express track"
Why the (F) is running on the (G) for? THAT's STUPID!
Next time that happins. Don't take the Subway from Jay St. I recommand takeing the B61 bus to Queens Plaza then eather take (E) or (F) to Union Turnpike. Or take the Q60 from Queens Plaza to Union Turnpike. I took the B61 to the Q60 when I was comming from the TA Museum back last year to get home. I live near by Union Turnpike Station in Queens.
Were these real emergencies, or is the Straphangers Campaign gearing up for another "subway survey" by sabotaging service yet again?
What a wild accusation!
-Andrew
Going to 179th on the F was always a maddening experience for me, ESPECIALLY if you don't have a seat. Holding lights at W4, delayed at 14th or 23rd because of congestion, same thing at 5th and Lexington Avenues, held AGAIN at 23rd/Ely, etc. Once I left Jackson Heights, the trip went much smoother. The scary part is that the R was sometimes faster when it went to 179 years ago.
"The scary part is that the R was sometimes faster when it went to 179 years ago."
That is scary!
N Bwy Line
>>> is the Straphangers Campaign gearing up for another "subway survey" by sabotaging service yet again? <<<
I've seen this allegation several times on Subtalk. It is easy to libel an organization (particularly if you are judgment proof), but I wonder does anyone have any proof of the Straphangers causing any sabotage?
If you can't put your money where your mouth is you ought to shut up.
Tom
I have 2 of these bad boys. I'll give 'em to whoever wants. Let me know by e-mail. If you can get your hands on them by 07/09/01 you get free rides for the rest of the day.
Can I get those from the MVM?
How about you keep buying 3 dollar cards until one of the following occurs:
You get the right card.
You are broke.
You are caught hopping the turnstyle due to the above...:-)
I bought my from the MVM at Times Square last night.
[I bought my from the MVM at Times Square last night.]
Which MVMs ? I was going to pay a visit to Shea Stadium, but since I'm going thru Times Sq on my way to Far Rockaway & since i'll have a FUN PASS I can easily leave the system & re-enter.
Mr t__:^)
Wow. I have 3. All empty. All from the Brighton Beach MVMs at the Brighton 4th Street exit.
Yesh.
Was posting on the D today, and crossed one on the bridge. Later, one passed us on the express, and then one crossed us further up. (Wasn't enough time for the same one to be heading back already). This was repeated on my last run, when we were running behind one, and passed it at the Brighton Beach terminal. After I cleared at Stillwell and started riding back, it was gone, but then I saw the other one again heading back at Bway Laf. At first, I saw the yellow Q Bway/Brighton on the sign, but then both had the orange Q 6 Av/Brighton
I had a long lunch break today, and since the oppurtuniy is about to dry up, I decided to take a "6th Ave dash" between 34th and W 4th. Oddly, the (Q) train was an R32.
:-) Andrew
Every so often a train or two of these R32 "Q" will surface. I guess the Slants they replaced are getting their beauty treatments or maybe they're having their drippy air-conditioners fixed. These would be Phase II R32, which would normally run on the "N" IIRC.
wayne
Hey, Wayne, maybe we'll catch a train of R-32s over the bridge come October. If not, I'll settle for a train of slants.
>>Wayne, maybe we'll catch a train of R-32s over the bridge come October. If not, I'll settle for a train of slants.<<
Considering that the present day Q operates 'Brightliners' sometimes, there's no reason why the Q express won't, especially since the bridge flip seems to stretch out the Coney and Concourse fleets to their max.
Still, I'd like it a whole lot better if the N was running the bridge. Then you'd get a lot of R-32's running across it!
There's no diamond Q on the R-32 rollsign. But I think people will be able to tell by looking at the destination.
They may cover over the orange circle Q with a diamond, 10 days from now will be (Q)'s last appearance forever.
Yeah, it would be nice, if for nothing else for sentimental reasons. July 21 will mark 36 years since my very first subway ride - on an N of shiny new R-32s over the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. The rest, as they say, is history.
They both entered W4th at 3:17 PM in opposite directions. All signs were correct.
The G was also running one train of R-32s.
What do you mean by "posting on the D"? What exactly were you doing?
- Lyle Goldman
When you are in school car, you are assigned a job on each line depending on what division you are in. You get to work on that line in passenger service. You have the regular C/R or T/O of that job watching over you as you work. The C/R or T/O gives you "pointers" about what to look for at each station or certain areas along the line.
I saw on of those r-32 Qs yesterday at around 12;30pm at 6th ave/34th st. N/B. All signs were correct also.
Peace,
ANDEE
This A.M. about 06:05 at Woodhaven, city bound local side. I just missed a "G" local of R/32s. I didn't get #s, or total of cars in the consist. The best I could do was wave bye-bye as the pair of red running lights laughed back at me for missing it.
I was rewarded for my humiliation by a view or money train OR719 and IR719 heading towards Jamaica on the opposite loacl tracks. I'm usedto seeing OR721 and IR721 near and about Jay St.
How are you doin'?
avid
G trains of R-32s will be 10-car consists.
0R/1R719 always plod the Queens Blvd lines between 6 and 8 AM. They don't make collections, just returning home to Jamaica.
I rode an R-32 Q-train today! My life is now complete! Not. But it was cool. Rode it from W4 to Newkirk starting at around 7:15pm. I could see the speedo through the cab door hinges and our top speed post-bridge was 42mph on the Courtelyou raceway. (clarification-I usually can't see the speedo thru the R-40's door hinges so that's why I mentioned the speed.) I think I should start a thread called "what's the fastest speed you've ever seen a subway do." Maybe this has already been asked. I better check the newfangled SubTalk archives before I get flamed to death.
48 on the 6 Avenue Express dash both ways. R40 Q Train. Begining of rush hour. Might have been faster during middays.
The 2/3 regularly hit 46 two or three times in Manhattan. Sometimes they go even faster. (But last week I was on two 3's that didn't beat 40.)
50 on an R-62 4 through the Joralemon St. tunnel
47 on an R-62A 3 between 72nd and Times Square southbound.
Anyone else notice that in most cases, the letter "Q" rollsign is often in a different font when it's orange than when it's yellow. The orange "Q" usually has a straight line tab that runs all the way through the circle. The yellow "Q" usually has a squiggly tab that ends in the circle.
Mind you, there are exceptions in both cases.
:-) Andrew
The Q that has a straight line running through the circle is from the Helvetica Medium font, whereas the Q with the squiggly tab hanging under the circle is from Standard Medium. Both typefaces, over the years, have been used for route identification and destination signs.
Where did you get the name "Standard Medium"? I had hunted this font down last year, and found it sold as "Akzidenz Grotesk". If this is another name for it, then maybe I could find it downloadable for free. (Akzidenz is privately owned and sells for $35.) Rmarerro (R36 9346)once said he had a copy of it called "Express SSI", which he used to make his SLRM Filled font (the route bullets used in his gif's).
Anyway, to answer the question, the TA had used Akzidenz on the original R-68/A and 32-46 GOH signs, but newer replacement signs use Helvetica. On the 68's the original signs had only the yellow diamond, in Akzidenz, but no orange. The Helvetica replacement signs had both orange and yellow circles. Back when the Q still had 68's, whenever you saw an orange Q, it was almost always Helv. Both original (Akzidenz) and replacement (Helv.) R32-46 signs have both orange and yellow circles, and you can see either. (I see lots of the Akz. orange Q's still on the slant 40's). The new diamond yellow Q's being pasted over the yellow D on these signs (which didn't have the diamond), are Helvetica, unlike the original R-68 sign.
Thanks to both of you for answering this one of my most trivial of subway questions.
(Though after it, it undeniably is on topic!)
:-) Andrew
Akzidenz-Grotesk and Standard Medium are both valid names for this font in question. The latter nomenclature, I remember very well, because it was one of the main fonts sold by Letraset (I.I.N.M., that route of typesetting was probably what NYC Transit used throughout the ’70’s for sign layout and route number or letter typesetting). From the looks of it, they (Letraset) probably used the 42 point foundry version of the type and reduced and enlarged said type (<- 36, 24, 12 etc., -> 48, 60, 72 etc.) by various increments for their sheets. (Remember Letraset, with its sheets where you line up a font on a piece of paper, rub a letter with a pencil or burnisher or whatever, and it goes on the paper? This, before computer typesetting came along.) Akzidenz-Grotesk was a name used by Linotype for its version of the font (back in the days of hot-metal typesetting), and is probably the better-known moniker these days, which explains why you know it as such now. Chartpak sold a variation of this typeface (probably the 18 point version, likewised reduced or enlarged incrementally) under the moniker of “Zentak Grotesk.” Whatever name by which it was known, I.M.S.M.C. it was created by a company called Berthold.
NYC Transit used Standard Medium a.k.a. Akzidenz-Grotesk as far back as 1958, at first solely on its subway maps. Such use expanded to route designations and other signs right around the time the Chrystie Street connection first opened in 1967.
For verification, please check out (at your local bookstore, if they have it) “The Type Specimen Book” published by Van Nostrand Reinhold originally in 1974. You’ll find this font on pages 455-456.
Actually, I recently checked, and the bullets on the 1967 map are Helvetica. It seems that the 1972 map is the first to use Standard. Though I do see now after just checking that it was used in the title ("NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY GUIDE") of the 1958 map. I was wondering how old it was. And Berthold is still the current owner, and their site is one of the ones I saw it sold on.
Correction: the title is probably Franklin Gothic, which is very similar to Akzidenz. The rest of the black text is Franklin, because you can tell by the 1 and lowercase g. But the large borough names are Akzidenz as evidenced by the Q in Queens.
Now the Chrystie Map also uses the same borough names (Akz), and black text inside (Franklin), but the title on the outside is Arial! It is just like this:
New York City
SUBWAY MAP and GUIDE
Notice the cut of the lowercase t, and the capital G.
I never knew that existed back then. I thought Arial was just an imitation Helvetica invented for Windows PC's.
Arial, to my mind, appears to be a hybrid of fonts such as Helvetica, Venus, and one of the fonts in a family called “Grotesque” (at the moment, I know not which variation - Grotesque 216? Grotesque 175? I suppose you can find out). It was created by Monotype, which also created a font called Impact which apparently dates back to pre-computer days (I saw some 1960’s ads from the U.K. with that font), and which is used for headlines by the New York Daily News Online website.
As for Franklin Gothic: Most computers use a variation of this font which was created by ITC, a company which also created certain variations on other fonts, all with the company’s name over them (ITC Cheltenham, ITC Century, etc.), and perhaps whose most famous typeface is Avant Garde. The pure Franklin Gothic was created by American Type Foundry (ATF).
The pure Franklin Gothic was created by American Type Foundry (ATF).
Any relation to American Car and Foundry?
Unfortunately, no. Nor is this type design firm related to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. (The latter of which has nothing, T.T.B.O.M.K., to do with New York subways.)
ATF, American Type Foundry, also created News Gothic, the Intertype phototypesetting version of which was used for descriptions of station names (i.e. 50 St 8 Av) in the 1958, 1964(?), 1966(?), 1974, 1976, 1977 and 1978 editions of New York subway maps. I’ve noticed some similarity in appearance between this and the Franklin Gothic family of fonts.
Most PC's don't have Helvetica (which is probably what Arial is used in place of), so I saw your "Helvetica" in Arial. (can tell by the "t" again). For PC's to see that font, you must use Swis 721 BT or MS Sans
I wonder if Grotesque is related to Akzidenz, since it has the 2nd name "Grotesk" (which is Germanic for "Gothic". I wonder what "Akzidenz" translates to in English, or is it the name of a town or something?)
Franklin Gothic is used for alot of things, such as the headlines of the paper Daily News
I had the opportunity to take a long look at the new map in the subway cars. A set of R142's (6331-6340) was rerouted up Lexington Av this evening and I planted myself in front the the car map.
Where the Eastern Parkway station should be is just "Broadway Junction". Previous maps had Broadway Junction -Eastern Pkwy.
Is the TA planning to rename the the Eastern Parkway Station?
Yes. Broadway Junction will be the new name for the entire complex.
Including the IND downstairs?
Yes. After construction is over, all three stations will be known as Bway Jct.
Well it's about time!
Unless they retile the IND station (they do NOT need to do so, the tile is in relatively good shape although the blueberry tile band is ugly), that one will probably retain its "BWAY EAST NY" wall captions.
wayne
I suppose the same can be said of Van Wyck Blvd. (Briarwood).
I was at GC and the R142 #2 train pulled in at the same time as a R142A #6 train going uptown. What a sight!! Imagine the passengers look on the local stations between 14/US-42/GC......
Quick question, did they reprogram the R142 that was rerouted up Lex?
No. The conductor was making his own announcements.
The route sign/map was turned off and at the lowere left corner its was lit up "Route Change. This map not in use". The flashing route sign was turned off as well (inside one). The outside one was in use.
Does anyone know how I could get a hold of one (or more) of the large "station-size" maps that are being replaced now with the new July 2001 maps? I know you can buy them in the Transit Museum store, but 1) free is better than $10 and 2) I haven't seen any of the maps in stock at the GCT store for over 2 months and I didn't see any at the museum store in Brooklyn on July 4th. Do the workers just throw them away? Could I ride the subway all night 'till I find a station with map replacing in action and ask nicely? Any ideas, tips, or insights? Thanks!
---Brian
Ask your friendly neighborhood station agent and hope he/she agrees to save one for you.
Of course, you probably have to actually know them.
Ask your friendly neighborhood station agent...
You've been spending too much time talking to subway-buff.
Well, Brian, you didn't hear it from me, but sometimes items like you describe are "appropriated", in the interests of historical preservation, of course.
Brian,
Why not just break down and spend the $10?
Like I said, I haven't seen them in stock for a few months. Have you?
I haven't looked, I bought one last year.
Check with the Grand Central store. They usually have them. Then try Brooklyn.
Ok, it's been awhile since my last update and a lot of film has come in. Here it goes. Comments are most Welcome. Dave, feel free to use any of them.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NJT_5154@JERSEY.jpg
Here is a picture of the July 2, 11:45 departing Philly, NJT Atlantic City bound train roaring over the eastern approach to the Delair Bridge at CP-JERSEY. NOTE: Chuchubob is the one behind the catenary pole in the blue shirt. ALSO NOTE: The crossover from the south (Conrail) track to the north (NJT) track has been removed.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NJT_5154@JERSEY2.jpg
Here is a close up of control cab #5154 on that same train.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NJT_4203.jpg
Here is an action shot of another NJT Atlantic City bound train, pushed by #4203, as it blasts past the former PRSL Winslow Tower at Winslow Jct. New Jersey.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NJT_4303.jpg
Here we see NJT #4303 sitting on the passing siding at the Cherry Hill station with some special one car train.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NJT_4203race-sd.jpg
Here is #4203 again helping out sister 4303 push the single coach at the Cherry Hill station. I'll bet that train has some descent acceleration. Also note the signal displaying an Approach Medium.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/2-bird+signals.jpg
Here we move on to New York City with a 2-bird splitting the old IRT signals at E180th St in the Bronx.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/5-bird.jpg
Now we're up at Dyre ave where we meet this hansome 5-bird.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/5-bird-2.jpg
Same 5-bird, this time accompanied by an old IRT manual key-by signal.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR_512.jpg
I took a brief trip to Jamacia where I caught LAIR DM 512 getting ready to head out with it's evening consist.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR_512r.jpg
Here is LAIR #512 again as it heads into HALL interlocking.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/HALL.jpg
And here is the majestic HALL tower guarding the eastern approach to Jamacia station.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR_513.jpg
Here we see LIAR #513 bringing up the rear of that outbound consist.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR_9121.jpg
There's always action at Jamacia. Here we see LAIR MU #9121 pulling into the platform.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR_9765.jpg
Here is MU 9765 doing the same just a minute or two later.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Stillwell Ave. Tower.jpg
Here is the grand tower at Stillwell Ave in Coney Island. It's in remarkable shape compared to the rest of the terminal.
Mike, your last link doesn't work... otherwise, nice shots!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mike, your last link doesn't work... otherwise, nice shots!
It works for me, but I already had the photo.
These are nice pics, Mike. Are they all prints that you scanned?
I took the liberty of posting the link to the Delair bridge shot to a thread on the New Jersey Railfan Forum.
Two of your pictures have a nice view of the office tower at Jamaica Center.
I thought that was the Jamacia Center.
You're right, it is. It's a federal office building. Also, across the street at One Jamaica Center is the new shopping center/restaurant/movie theatre complex under construction.
Now pictures like that are what I would like to get for myself. Thanks! Now how do you get them on the frieght only lines, without getting into problems with the local police forces? I want to do things the proper way, and not get into any legal difficulties.
If you just use some common sence you can pretty much go where you pelase and never run into trouble. Here are some helpful hints.
1. Don't go mucking about on the infrastructure. If your on an often used line don't go crossing long bridges, climb signals or generally be seen physically interacting with the equipment along the line.
2. When trains are comming stay out off the track bed. By getting down into the weeds you are A) decreasing your noticibility and B) showing the engineer that you are acting in a safe and responsible manor. They are far more likley to call the cops if they see you endangering yourself. Also when approaching areas w/ RR personell again make an effort to stay as far from the tracks as you can. On this trip there was a signal crew at CP-HATCH. They didn't even look at us as we walked by and took pictures of their work.
3. Show off your camera. RR's are much more concearned about vandals and harmful tresspassers than railfans. By wearing the camera about your neck you ID yourself as a railfan and not a vandal or thief. They are also far less likley to bother you if they see you taking pictures and "observing". I have found that you can do pretty much whatever you want as long as it is in the process of setting up a photograph.
4. Don't make yourself obvious, but don't sneak around. It helps to be out of sight and out of mind. Go picturing where you can't easily be seen from any road of public place. If you ever run into RR personel don't hide. It usually helps to wave and give some sort of greeting. RR cops are mose uptight than employees. If you see one comming around your best bet is to wave and go talk to them about what your doing or to then slowly walk away.
5. Stay mobile. Don't camp out in any one place and park in an area where "your" car is not obvious. Keep walking around after you get that shot.
All right, but would it be correct to call someone like a dispatcher and get permission first, so that if the RR police do come around, you can show them who gave you the ok to be on the property? That should keep them happy, right?
Dispatchers would never give permission because that lever is too accountable to the big bad central management. You need to do it on a face to face basis with low level personelle.
Well, if you say so, but I will leave at the first sign of a problem.
Remember a few years ago with the 63st shuttle on Broadway, they had those digital signs constantly flashing directions on how to get to it? Well, they're back! There's one at the IND mezzanine by Manhattan mall, visible only to those entering the system there or sitting in the off-hour waiting area.
There's also a pair facing opposite directions at the junction of all the ramps in the maze that is the regular mezzaine. Anyone who doesn't use the escalator to get to platform level will see it. Then again, considering the location of this one, it may be a "Next Train" indicator. We won't know for a while, as none of the signs have been activated yet.
On a similar note: Is anyone planning on taking pictures of the "no trains stop here" signs at Canal? They'll be gone very soon, they've already removed several signs from the northbound platform (including the one pointing to the uptown 6, the train everyone thinks they're waiting for at Canal st. bridge station. With no sign, it will be more difficult to get them to find the correct platform).
On a similar note: Is anyone planning on taking pictures of the "no trains stop here" signs at Canal? They'll be gone very soon, they've already removed several signs from the northbound platform (including the one pointing to the uptown 6, the train everyone thinks they're waiting for at Canal st. bridge station. With no sign, it will be more difficult to get them to find the correct platform).
I have three or four pictures of the red signs.
I did notice on Friday that one of the 6 signs was missing (although I thought it was the downtown one). It probably fell down or something -- why would it be deliberately removed? That's one of the few signs that will remain accurate after July 22.
They're probably going to go nuts when they put the new signage up. Like, every single sign by the stairs will point toward the stairs for the appropriate route, and toward the platform for (Q){Q}(W). And yes, they will bill the two Qs separately on all signs, unlike every other diamond-circle relationship in the system.
It's amazing how many people read the signs that are still there. I helped four people find the train they were looking for today. Strangely they were all looking for the N or the R.
Shawn.
Grr. I meant to say how many people don't read the signs.
Shawn.
Well, it is official - or as official as anything is that MTH promises. The R-17s will be released on January 15, 2002. I suspect that it has less to do with retooling and just letting some of us replenish out bank accounts. Now just three questions remain:
What will follow the R-17s? One would only hope that it'll either be the R-9 or R-10
Has anyone gotten a release date for the R-32s?
At $500.00 will any be sold?
The R-32's were originally supposed to be released in August, but I suspect that might have been delayed. With 60'cars in O gauge you may need minimum 096 curves for the short couplers. They will probably look beautiful on a straight track static display, but I don't think they will look too sharp on the curves of the average layout.
I just ran the R-21s through the 180 degree curve of 032 track without incident. However, I do notice a perceptible drag when going over one of several 042 cross-overs at a scale 5 mph. Attributable to stiffness of a new loco or interaction of the short couplers and sharp curves? I'll have to spend some time with it this weekend.
BTW: R-32s were supposed to handle 042 curves but if I do build a seperate El for them it'll be a minimum of 054. They are due to be released 9/15.
I'm going to convert two cars this weekend to test, but I am dealing with postwar Lionel 031 curves, and I am afraid that I won't have the good fortune that you had.
I have a feeling that you won't be able to put the short couplers on those R-32's, and get them thru 054 curves.
What really would be nice would be for MTH to have a removeable pantograph for those of us who like close couplings, but are forced to have tight curves due to space available. The pantographs make the R-21 look sharp, but I could give them up to be able to have prototypical between car spacing.
If you are using 0-31 curves, you can (albeit it requires perfect trackwork) get the R-21's around with the "short" couplers and the gates in place. BUT, they will not go through a crossover (or S-curve) without the gates rubbing. They will rub slightly, but should not cause any derailment. Eventually, continued use this way will cause the black paint to rub off the brass stampings. If you don't mind this, you CAN operate them with short couplers on 0-31 curves. MTH doesn't recommend this for obvious reasons. The recommended configuration for 0-31 is one "long" and one "short" coupler. As far as removable gates, the gates are merely press fit into the body, so you should be able to pop them off without any problem if you want to remove them. Have fun!
Thanks for the advice, Frank!
I hope to put it to the test on my friend's layout this coming weekend.
Dude, as I understand it, Nate Gersten has plans on producing the R-9 series subway cars as a followup to his beautiful Bluebirds that came out in O gauge a couple of years ago.
Stay tuned for more details.
If MTH were smart, they'd do the slant 40's or the R-38's after they release the R-32 sets.
There niche seems to be with car types that are currently in service, or have been recently removed from revenue fleets.
BMTman
I'm down for that. Haven't much use for O gauge myself but I know the chances of finding R9's in N gauge are somewhere up there between hitting Looto or getting Elected ... wonder if there'll be a trolley pole mod kit for it? :)
With the many choices offered by the PCC trolly, and its continued run, look for the yellow/black money train and the Worlds fair Blue birds.
avid
As a weekly rider of MTA NYC Transit, have found some differences and have concluded that these are the differences which I have found.
(comments or ?'s are welcome) The R44/46 trains are often named together because they physically look so similar. Here I have enlisted the differences: (other than a different roster #)
1. Doors on R44's usually close faster than R46's. Therefore, more sounds of the latches that hold the doors can be heard on the R46's where the doors close gently.
2. When the engineer (or driver) releases the brakes to depart out of a station, the air release sounds different. R44's sound like as if the air is somehow forced out of a small valve in large amounts, so it sounds a little less pleasant than R46's.
3. The electric motors installed on the R46's seem to 'rev up' immediately after the train starts, rather when R44's have a gentle 'upgrading' sound as it increases speed, if you would.
Well, these are the ones I can think of at the expense of the moment.
The lighting is the same, the positioning of the axles are the same, same interior layout and exterior design, etc.
These trains, seldomly used on the E, all of the F fleet, and the majority of the R and the A, will be our 'friends' in commuter travel for a generation to come.
Long live the 75'-ers.
Railfan Pete
Besides the differences in air pressure the real differences are in the cab. 46's are much roomier. 46's also don't have windscreens by the doors.
This might be a silly question for some people, but what is a windscreen?
Railfan Pete.
Not silly. My fault. That is what we call those pieces of glass by all the door openings. I guess it screens passengers of stormy weather when they sit by the doors. 46's don't have them.
I thought it was to protect your wallet in your pocket, i.e. so no one can grab you or your wallet on their way out of the car.
LOL! That too!
They did when they first arrived, but were smashed out by some of our more mischevious urchins in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and were never replaced. Why they kept them in the R-44s I don't know -- maybe 207th St. has more clout with the transparent acrylic suppliers than Jamaica yard does :-)
It was a result of thier GOH contracts being different r-44s GOH specified they be kept. The r-46s GOH specified the they be removed.
I believe the the SI r44s still have the frames but no glass.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not quite...
The R-44 cars were returned from their overhaulers (Morrison-Knudsen and 207th Street/Coney Island) without the windscreens. New windscreens in new kick-resistant frames were installed soon thereafter. This was not done with the R-46s (which were overhauled earlier), though I never did find out why.
David
SIR's were done by CI shops, they have the frames but no glass.
The glass was removed later, or so I've heard.
Originally, some R-46's kept the frames without glass, and I remember a few having the glass, but now aall the frames have been removed and new stainless steel pieces put in leaving no trace.
There is somebody on the Rock Park shuttle with a hammer or something else and this person seems to bust only the windscreens. Drives the RCI's at Pitkin nuts.
Wait 'til Gasping George gets his "dream" job on the Rock Park shuttle: he'll straighten him out, then administer first aid. (Sorry about the obscure references).
The Eggman
...are you the Eggman?...
That's also the British term for an automobile's windshield.
I've noticed that the doors on the R-44s open and close more slowly then those on the R-46s, similar to the doors on the BMT standards.
Other differences (far more obvious to me than the ones Railfan Pete found):
The cab door is narrow on the R-44.
The former blue stripe on the exterior is rusting on the R-44.
The R-44 runs on the A and the R-46 runs on the E, F, G, R, and Rockaway shuttle.
Correction:
The R-44 runs on the A and the Rockaway shuttle. The R-46 runs on the E, F, G, and R.
Today I saw a full length R32 G train Forest hills bound.
a full length R32 G train Forest hills bound? IT WAS PROBABLY AN E.
Nope, all the signs said G, and I saw it come in beside my F express.
I saw it come in beside my F at Queens Plaza, and all side signs said G, as well as the head end signs. Even the C/R on my train said "a G is across the platform".
What probably happened is a G train broke down and they didn't have any other available shorter R46 sets so they took one R32 set assigned for E service. R32's have also been making regular appearances on the R train as well.
I've ridden R-32 G's on rare occasions as well. You don't see them often, and always at rush hours (PM rush for me), but they're occasionally there.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
The cab door is narrow on the R-44.
So is the cab, the door on the R-44 is swing type, on the R-46 slide type.
The former blue stripe on the exterior is rusting on the R-44.
It's still carbon steel and painted gray. MK R-44 rebuilds and the SI R-44 have it replaced with stainless as the R-46 always had.
It's still carbon steel and painted gray.
With brown polka dots.
It has a strip of sheet metal painted gray over it. Two cars: 5228-9 have a stainless steel strip over it. R-46's have nothing over it, just the bare surface which was always stainless steel. I forgot whether the SIR cars (the higher part of the R-44 order) had the stainless steel strip, or the were already stainless steel like the 46's.
on the 44s, the former blue strip appears to be covered with soem sort of gray material, probably to conceal the rust you mentioned.
The 46s have just plain metal on their sides.
Bondo ... (don't mind me) ... redbirds away, they're next ... fire in the hole. Ten-hut.
The blue band area on the R-44s is non-stainless steel. The R-46s have all-stainless steel sides.
I've also noticed that the top of door opening is a little "busier" looking on the R-44 than on the R-46.
BMTJeff
The R-44 doors also open much slower than R-46.
Lighting isn't exactly the same, the panels on the side light tracks are segmented on the R-44.
There are many more differences.
Hi all, sorry to make the subject all caps but I know how busy we all are and I didn't want anyone to miss this. "The Other Side of The Tracks" is currently located at www.zdeno.com. As you can imagine- a website with such an odd address makes it difficult to remember. So, as a favor to everyone who visits or asks me about it I have registered a new domain name and moved the site. The new location of "The Other Side Of The Tracks" is www.nycrail.com. Please update any links on your websites or personal bookmarks you may have to www.nycrail.com.
Thanks for taking you time to do this!
If you haven't visited in a while I strongly suggest you check it out- I now have over 1500 photos and lots of content that you will not find anywhere else like MPEG videos of trains at Jay St. and behind the scenes stuff (like photos from towers). I also have a Kings Highway (Brighton Line) tower simulator software available for download which you will not find anywhere else on the internet.
Please foward this e-mail to anyone else who you know who would be interested in The Other Side Of The Tracks. I will post this message two more times on Subtalk in the next month just so everyone knows- after this there will be no more distraction from me.
Thanks Again!
-Harry Beck
www.nycrail.com
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Hello, all. I was just wondering, what exactly is the track configuration on the Amtrak / Shore Line East line between New Haven and New London, and on what tracks do each of the different trains go?
- Lyle Goldman
Shoreline East shares the same trackage as Amtrak...its basically a 2 track line....with a few crossovers....along with the new catenary which supplies power now to most of Amtrak's trains. SLE is diesel powered..push/pulls....
RailPace has frequently had photos of those trains in action, although not the July issue.
Mr t__:^)
In most places, a last-call boarding announcement for a train would go something like this -
"Last Call for the 5:30 East Boondox local, track 4. All Aboard, please"
But the LIRR doesn't do it like that.
The several times I have been on the LIRR concourse at Penn Station, their annoucements sound like subway conductor annoucements -
"Stand clear of the closing doors on Track 16 [for the 5:30 Babylon local yada yada yada et al]"
Just an observation I thought I'd share, as I've never heard "Stand clear . . . " for a train announcement anywhere else.
That's not a last call announcement, that's the train is leaving announcement. There is a last call announcement, and it is usually "Last call for the 4:49 Port Jefferson, stopping at..."
The announcement you speak of is "Please stand clear the closing train doors for the Port Jefferson train on track 17, you have the All Aboard on track 17."
The same announcements are made at Jamaica. Easbound, this usually this ends up happening:"Once you have recieved your passengers on track 8 you have the all aboard on track 8". Why? Because somehow, between NYP, FBA, and JAM trains manage to become 10 minutes late and thus the discretion is given to the conductor on when to leave. If he doesn't do this fast enough, you'll hear this, "Close your doors on 8 you have the all aboard on 8. CLOSE YOUR DOORS ON 8!". Sometimes followed by a "move when ready on 8".
Don't feel bad. Caltrain in San Francisco -- NO announcements of departures. They just close the doors of the train and go.
Metrolink in southern California, same thing.
Maybe the crews all think it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than make an announcement and remove all doubt.
This just occured to me . . .
On the evening of June 22, my hs Class of 2001 went on a Spirit cruise around Manhattan (actually, the sumbitch went up the Hudson to around Harlem, did an about-face then went around and up the East River to below Roosevelt Island before turning again and returning to Liberty State Park).
Sometime during the early morning hours of the 23rd when we were in the bay, the Spirit decided to drag-race Staten Island's Alice Austin - one of the small passenger boats.
Now the SI Ferry operates hourly service during the overnight hours. Hourly service requires only 1 boat, so that was the one we saw.
So this means there is no car-boat service during that time. So anybody driving who wishes to travel between the two islands must drive via Brooklyn or Jersey and cannot use the ferry.
Now this seems kinda dumb. Unless there is little demand for late-nite auto boat service, which is likely the case, and it is probably cheaper and more economical to run a small boat rather than the large car boat.
I remember some years back during weekends when they ran alternate passenger-only and auto service every 30 minutes - the car boat left Manhattan on the hour and the pax. only left at :30. They ran one of the small boats for this.
I haven't been around the SI ferry on weekends.
Do they still follow this schedule?
Thanks.
BTW - I prefer the car boats to the pax. ones - much more open space.
Weekends both boats are car boats.
The biggest complaint about the pax-only boats has always been the lack of outdoor seating space. Late nights, they use one of the two smallest boats, the Alice Austen or the John A. Noble. Both boats, due to their lower passenger capacity, have significantly lower operating costs, mostly due to USCG crew requirements. Weekend service is usually two car boats in the summer, but it depends on the maintainance schedule. Winter service usually has one of the superferries running. Again, the use of the lower-capacity boats saves on crew. One boat is always out of service every few months for major work. This creates problems if one of the other boats has a mechanical failure, since there's no spare.
-Hank
Thats the car I got in toruble with on the 5. Had a hung guardlight at Prospect for 10 min. Prospect is a dead spot, and control center went Nuts.Glad that sucker is gone Now if they get rid of 8816 (No AC)
7772 (very old ,Loud and the cab is like an echo chamber)I will be a happy camper the two days a week I am on the 5
Things I remember that went wrong while operating the 'birds in 1994:
1) With the 7700 series, had a guard light at Gun Hill Road, then another one at East 180 Street during the rush hour. Oh people just loved that.
2) Practically ripping my fingernails out on the C/R's protruding close/open buttons on the 9000-9200 series.
3) The C/R's windows were the WORST!!
As a rider, I'm sorry to see those guys go. As an employee, good riddance!
I agree with Zman and Union Square. As a railfan and rider, I will miss these guys as I grew up on them riding the Bklyn IRT into the "city" and still enjoy riding them. But now as a C/R I cant stand to operate them for the same reasons Zman mentioned. 4th of July I had to go out of service at Intervale for a guard light. No cause found. Wait a minute.... I got a job on the 5 today. Let me not jinx myself.
Let me put it like this:
I sometimes like seeing a redbird, or riding one. But being crammed into one is murder. Railfan window aside (and i really don't care about Railfan windows) the R-142 has everything that a redbird has, plus more.
So, in summary i dislkie the 'birds, and I am just a rider.
you dont care ....!
What's a guardlight? Is it a headlight? I know it sounds ignorant, but as I'm not an employee, I really don't know....
There are 5 lights on a NYC Transit car. The 1st is the headlight. It is on the ends of the car and is white in color. It is turned on/off with the reverse key. It is off on all positions except the front at all times. The next is the tail light. When the headlight is not on, they come on. It is on only at the ends of the train. The next is the Guardlight. They are the red light on the sidebody of the car. They come on when the doors are opened or unlocked. The next is the Propulsion Fault Light. They are also on the side body of the car. They come on when there is a motor or propulsion failure in the car. Then there are the End Door Lights. They are only on the 75 foot cars. They are blue in color and come on when the end doors ( to cross from car to car) is on. They are usually off in most cases except the front, back and middle. Those may be on or off depending on the crew last using the train. Who ever said you need to be an employee to know stuff.
Thanks a lot. I know of all these lights (except the "End door lights"), but didn't know their names.
I sure hope you know what those white things up front are for.
As a rider and fan, I'll miss the Redbirds greatly. However, I know the employee's perspective is often very different, and I can empathize. Sometimes my own job keeps old, piece of s*** equipment well beyoned its time as well.
MY CONNECTION WITH MTH SINCE SEPT 1997 AS AN OUT-OF-HOUSE TECH-SUPPORT CONSULTANT........
Some of you fellows might know this, but for thoe who dont, I was the R-type subway set Tech Consultant to MTH Trains for all the R-type subway sets from the R-42 since September 1997. What happened with the R-42 sets (truncating them to 51 scale feet from 60 REAL scale feet was NOT by my hand but a result of MTH's concern that scale 60 footers would not be operable on 0-27 radius track and switches. I got involved with them when I saw their catalog "Artist rendering" in 1997 of the
"hybrid" Subway set which shows cars with 3 door sets ala IRT but with an R-44 / 46 type front end
and labeled R-42 types. My contact with John Adelesberger, Project Manager of the subway sets, set into motion correcting the cars to a 4- door set style and the proper "front end" look with the
recessed storm (train) doors applicable to the 40M and 42's.. I sent them builder plans, data, color
and paint data, photos...all necessary info to get the cars done scale and correctly. This began an almost 4 year relationship between myself and MTH and Mr. Adelsberger. I was horrified by the R-42
final product and let MTH know their "truncation decision" re: proper length was a significant poor management decision - and that they were embarking in a field of models that was truly needed and in demand by our unique hobby segment. I advised them that IF I was to remain as a consultant - any future cars I worked on had to be as totally scale and realistic as possible. I also told them (and I have been proven right!) that if done properly - these sets would SELL OUT before they were released.
Being I wasnt cyber-connected back then, my contact was thru typed letters and us mail and extensive phone contact. My friend Frank Gatazka - who used to call me the Rapid Transit old "GURU" of NY transit modeling - joined forces with me as he was computer on line and could facilitate faster easier transmission of ideas, data and communiques for he and me via computer with MTH. I was by Jan 2000
involved with producing O-Scale epoxy IRT R-33 single unit (R-33-S) Worlds fair car bodies with interiors --bodies having the picture windows. I worked with Mike Bartel of IHP Car Co (located in my region of Penna) to do the work. MTH contacted me re: an idea for a new car project. Being Q Car company, my friend Quentin Carnicelli, had not produced his R-17 O-scale car for many years to devote All his time to O-Scale truck production - the R-21 was considered as a viable next subway set. MTH likes colorful paint schemes where possible, and the R-21 original Kale Green was a dull color scheme
as factory delivered, and MTH liked the Red Bird Scheme even tho I let them know no R-21's underwent the Morrison-Knudsen GOH program of the mid 1980's as they were already almost 30 years old - but the color of the Redbirds was a GO for all intents and purposes. You all must remember that NOOOO ONE
took the gamble on subway cars of the big 3 -Lionel - K Line and Williams - and they weren't interested.
Mike Wolf put out the fantastic Pennsy MP 54 to SCALE when he was with Lionel BEFORE he started MTH-
a daring step - so we can credit Mike Wolf for the insight into delving into heretofore unchartered Rapid transit O-Scale territory. I know that Frank G
had contact with Lionel to no avail re; transit cars
of New york genre...but no response from them.
MTH was convinced to design the tooling for the R-21 with storm door and side window "die-blocks" to be
removable and interchanged with "new tooling blocks" to create alternate IRT R-type cars simply without
major new tool and die patterns for possible future cars. The success of the R-21 pre-production sale figures had MTH hot for a next subway series. Among many ideas (an R-62 IRT for example but put on hold then) - we came up with a B-division car which of course did require entirely new tooling..and the R-32 Brightliner was born in model form. Re; the R-21, MTH used a plastic model submitted by another anufacturer - in HO gauge -as a model to work from.
The catalog photos of the R-21, with some air-brush retouching to O-Scale-ize the bodies, was actually 2 Two-Car married pair HO non R-21 cars which for some reason had a vaguely appearing R-21 storm door window..but more importantly, had an incorrect roof curvature profile. Frank Gatazka had custom painted the 4 cars for the HO Manufacturer in the Redbird
Color scheme which that class of HO-R type ((R 26 or 29 I think) was proper in that scheme. Those HO cars - retouched in photograpohy - with Frank's
painting ang exterior detailing skills added - is what the MTH catalog color views reflected - for the O-Scale R-21 sets to be sold by MTH. MTH could have done the R-21 cars in the colorful silver platinum with the blue stripe - more proper for the post Kale Green factory paint - and the last paint these cars
had before scrapping - but the Catalog showed the redbird Scheme and that was an ir-reversible
situation. MTH was also informed that their factory, Samhongsa, had made a scale brass HO R-17 accurately years ago (prior to MTH operations) and the factory had the car in their model archive room -and it could accurately represent the roof curvature and rivets, details - minus the R-17 oval ouside body
emergency door opener details over the center drop sash windows unique to the R-17 car sides only. They found the HO brass model and used it plus R-17 contract factory plans I submitted to them.
I also sent John A one of my IRT scale R-33-S O-Scale shell for size, contour and dimension studies from an actual scale - O-Scale carbody.
RE: the pantograh gates - this is a fault of the
prototype design as relating to an accurate model representation - and was a major engineering
consideration for MTH - if they produced the cars without the gates so to eliminate the engineering problem - scale & semi scale purchasers would have
protested and moaned...the gates were as relevant to all R-types as drivers would be to a steam loco.
The pilot pre-production car I reviewed had slightly more extended gates than the final production cars have - and MTH offered the various coupler sizes
as an alternative eg; track curve radius use by the
set purchasers. The accuracy of the R-21 is the result of John Adelsberger working diligently with me and Frank G via computer communications between
us and it is to John's credit -by not failing me re; repeating the R-42 nightmare - that we got the car
body pretty much 95% on the mark correctly. I hesitate to think what would have came about if MTH
did everything by themselves. They did a great job on the CTA (Chicago) sets with knowledgeable out of house tech support people up there to help them as I did on the NY projects. When I had the R-32's under production - John and I spoke about the NEXT series- they were thinking Low-V's, R-1/9 types - I mean - MTH was on a ROLL then for NY subway cars - but
financial considerations dictated using the R-21
body dies already "paid for" so to speak - to create
the R-17 by changing the storm door die-block - a simple and very inexpensive measure - to create the R-17 but I suggested the MTA colors (as catalog shows presently)---as the R-21's maroon of 1955
factory original colors - would have been little contrast to the Redbird "red" look - and isnt as striking as the brighter MTA colors which most
40 and younger-age purchasers can relate to. I also
advised John to go with the 1964 Worlds Fair picture window R-33-S cars (single units) in the factory
WF colors for a future (next year - who knows)
set. Single cars as opposed to married pairs because the major body die was based on the "single car"
design of the R-21 single car body style. All that had to be done was simple picture window die and storm door die inserts and you have an R-33-S.
Unfortunately, after my conversations with John re:
this proposed project, he informed me that due to
some major staff changes and reductions at MTH (and much more that I cant reveal that he in confidence
told me) - that he would not be with MTH any longer
per June lst this year. I was put in contact with
his assistance (and replacement) as the new Project Manager. I have had many cordial conversations with that individual - but until MTH finishes its already
ongoing R-type projects (R-32 and R-17 sets) - and gets its MTH-house in order re: personnel changes and downsizing (its called the state of our up and down economy for those who noted all the big name
company closings and layoffs and dot-com company
deaths and high oil and utility costs and etc etc etc...and stock market ups and downs) - I have
backed off a bit to help facilitate the new Project Manager getting settled into his new role amidst
all the in house re-arranging...and letting him concentrate on getting all the MTH projects under his command finalized and caught up.
So - lets all be happy that MTH and I had a fruitful
relationship over the past almost 4 years and we got our toys which no other manufacturer seemed to
want to get involved with - and the hard work myself and Frank Gatazka beat our brains out over re: these
projects - with much help from my good friend Nate (R-1/9) Gersten - and enjoy your present and future sets for those that got them - experiment re; curves and couplers - and if you cant, then YES, remove the pantographs on mid-train cars - or collapse them further--the gates can be "plucked off" easily enough - and designate "head end cars" to keep their gates.
NONE of
ARTICLE CONTINUED - last half was somehow cut off in Transmission!!! (RE: ME & MTH - by Joe At NYC MODEL TRANSIT EL)
NONE OF us scale guys who model the Pre-R type old el and subway cars in O Scale - model the "accordion gates" that were hooked between the cars - too much engineering trouble - so what is wrong with a few panto gates missing from your mid train R-types if it makes operation better. The pantograph gates on the R-21 Pilot pre-production model I reviewed
(photos on my website now but not for long as site is being expanded with more new photos) extended out a bit more than the present production models as I said, and if MTH decided to leave them off entirely to quick fix the engineering problem, scale and semi scale purchasers would have protested and moaned...as the gates are to the R types as the drivers are to a steam loco. So, enjoy the cars and THANK GOD MTH took the initiative to produce NY subway cars at all - and reasonably priced compared to what we scalers have to pay for 2-Rail full O-scale limited run production models. Check out the price for th R 1/9s in full O-Scale with paint, interiors, etc., but unpowered...plus extra cost to power the units - but we scale guys pay the price because its the only way for us to get our stuff.
My sets will be reworked - I will use the MTH sideframes from the trucks and assemble them to new truck bolsters I fabricate with scale insulated 33" wheelsets - motor trucks will be can-motor 12V DC powered by Q Car Co. underfloor drive kits like I did to my R-42 set. I will be able to lower the carbodies to scale rail top to roof height. I will
add the conductors step under the anticlimber and repaint the underbody and trucks grime black and paint the third rail beams red. Also dull cote spray the roofs to take the shine down...and upgrade the
interiors more. The generic underbody is adequate enough and looks reasonable enough - its is the same as used on the R-42 cars - a cost saver to keep prices reasonable. I will add my own fabricated
scale size radial couplers and do what I have to re pano gates to make the cars take curves on my el. And, IU can run them with my 20 IHP limited production run R-33-S picture window redbirds and MTA silver/blue cars. If you want to see the kind of work I do, call up my email site and you can click onto my website URL for my el and equipment views in O Scale.
We only live once guys - and when the light goes out - its over. So enjoy your sets and think what you would have and wish for if MTH thought like the other "Big Three"---you could only dream
fruitlessly.
Some advice from the Tech Support Consultant - (me) - make a wood floor clearance car 60' x 10' scale
and mount trucks in the position the R-32 trucks would be - with floor the height of your R-21 door sills. This would look like a flatcar - and adjust your curve devilstrips and station platform clearances for the R-32 cars if you plan to get a set - so you can run both IRT 51x9 and BMT-IND 60x10 cars on the same system with R-32 clearances as the
rule. Have fun with your sets - and remember again, without MTH (and My and Frank G efforts) --it could be worse........
REGARDS - Joe at NYC Model Transit EL
I had just received a promotional flyer in the mail from Railroad Avenue Enterprises that two new books to be published by them are certainly to be an interest to New York area traction fans. Both of them are authored by Frederick A. Kramer, and the titles are "Unifying The Subways" and "The Third Avenue Railway System: A Photographic Essay in the Manhattan and the Bronx".
"Unifying The Subways" will be a 72 page book featuring 130 photos covering the period from the 1940 unification of the three systems towards the creation of the New York City Transit Authority (the cover of the book is similar to "Building The Independent Subway" but the photo used is an AB type on the Williamsburgh Bridge). "The Third Avenue Railway" book shows vintage private collection photos in the two main boroughs it served with emphasis on a lot of scenic visual backgrounds (i.e. theater marquees, landmarks and buildings).
You can order directly from Railroad Avenue Enterprises, Box 114, Flanders, NJ 07836, or perhaps look for them in your nearby rail hobby store. The list price for these books are $17.95 for "Unifying The Subways", while it is $18.95 for "The Third Avenue Railway" book.
-William A. Padron
The Third Avenue Railway System: A Photographic Essay in Manhattan and the Bronx is already out... I picked up my copy at the National Capital Trolley Museum (Wheaton, Maryland) on July 4th.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, the book's correct title is "Third Avenue Railway: A Cityscape of Manhattan and The Bronx". If anyone is curious what cover photo is used, it depicts a Broadway Line 500 numbered series "Huffliner" unit operating southbound within the Times Square district.
There are no copies of that book or "Unifying The Subways" that are found in the New York Transit Museum's gallery store in Grand Central Terminal yet. However, don't be surprised if these books will be in stock soon there and should be put up for purchase later.
-William A. Padron
I'll bet "Unifying the Subways" has at least one good R-10 photo in it.
Really nice story about a high falutin' TSS at Grand Central
Peace,
ANDEE
Nice to Shadrick get some recognition.
I did not read the article but know who/what it is about. The cowboy. He's a good guy. I spoke to him yesterday while working the platform at GC. Always there to give you advice and so forth............
Finally after 30 years, I decided to go to Montauk for the first time.
Here are a few observations:
LIRR: The stations at Bellport and Amagansett can only fit one car.
There was no sign of the old Center Moriches station, but the Quogue parking lot was still there. At the entrance, there was a sign that said "Train Station CLOSED-No Trespassing" and a wooden divider that blocked the entrance. The platform and ticket office were gone. Didn't notice the old Southampton College station. All the stations have only one platform as it's mainly single track operation. There are sidings just north of the Speonk and Southampton stations where westbound trains wait until the eastbound train passes, and vice versa. Speonk also has a yard and it is the easternmost reporting point for LIRR train crews.
Montauk ends on an island platform with two tracks. There are also four spur tracks there. It's kind of humbling to stand by the bumping blocks and realize that this is as far as you can go on the LIRR. Also from Bridgehampton all the way out to Montauk, there is no fencing along the right of way. People's back yards just touched the tracks with no obstacles. Now THAT must be cool.
I would categorize Montauk as the "poor man's hampton". It's definitely not "hoidy-toidy" like the Hamptons and a lot of college kids work there for the summer. But it's a very nice place to visit. Just be careful where you book your stay an one of the ocean front resorts (there are many). Some of them are loaded with screaming kids and the rooms are less than adequate. One place that I do not recommend is "Royal Atlantic Resorts". This place is an expensive dive. Stay away at all costs!!! Also what was cool is that you'd go to the beach at night and there would be bonfires dotting the beach with people huddling around them. And the next day, there would be no signs of the bonfires. They take care of their beaches.
Went out to Montauk Point Lighthouse on the S94 shuttle bus. It's a Suffolk Transit public bus (Gillig) that costs $1.50 and takes dollar bills and coins (sorry, no MetroCards). The shuttle runs for two months out of the year and is run by Hampton Jitney. There is also a second public bus (the 10C) that runs every two hours and runs between East Hampton and the Montauk Docks. At East Hampton, it connects with the S92 to Greenport. The S92 takes over 3 hours so if you're going that way, don't say that I didn't warn you. Go to www.suffolkbus.com for more info.
The lighthouse was a very nice place. Went all the way to the edge and looked down at the rocks about 200 feet below. If I thought it was humbling to see the LIRR bumping blocks, then it was even more so to see Long Island to come to an end. But you know what is the last thing to greet you at the edge of Long Island? It's a pair of signs on the dunes about 3 feet past the fence that prevents you from falling that says "Warning- Tick Infestation". Oh lovely.
Heading back, we took the Hampton Jitney bus. We didn't really have a choice in the matter as we missed the 2:50 pm LIRR train on Monday, and the next one was at 10:38. The bus runs once an hour and is a very nice ride. You board the bus without paying. When the bus reaches Southampton, an attendant comes on board serving snacks and drinks which was nice. Then she whacks you by taking your fare (which wasn't so nice). The bus also is a bit more expensive than the train. The one way fare for the LIRR is $10.25 and $21.50 round trip. On Hampton Jitney it's $24 one way and $43 round trip. The bus is also about 30 minutes faster than the train when traffic is clear, but I'm sure that it's hellish when battling L.I.E. rush hour traffic so try to schedule your trips around things like this.
Overall, a very nice visit.
I was looking around at all the Manny B flyers, etc and here is what I propose, even though it will not happen.
Originally, didn't the Q travel to 21st/Queensbridge?
Route the W or the Q north from 57th via the N/R tracks to connect with the former B stops. The tracks would be put to use again. Idea taken from subway maps from nycsubway.org - detail of midtown 47th-63rd Streets. Rather have the Q go to Queensbridge and leave the N and W to Astoria.
Therefore, no need for the Orange S on 6th. - Let the F handle it and only have the S from Grand Street to Bway-Lafayette
How about 57/6?
It doesn't much matter what happens now because a full 63rd Street service is starting in November anyway.
Now, the TA still has the option of running a Broadway service through that tunnel as well - if it has a good reason to.
I ride the LIRR Alot and i have been on Far Rockaway Trains doing 75 and the people and C/Rs walk between with no problems, but then again Railroad trains don't have wheel screeching turns with timers
On railroads not all the cars will platform at all the stations. People need to be able to pass through. Same goes for fude service and conductors.
What's "fude" service?
A more British way of spelling food.
Oh, is that what you meant? That's not how the British spell "food." They spell it the same way we do.
- Lyle Goldman
Between married pairs (between the non-cab ends) of an MU set of LIRR and MNCR trains, the cars have special equipment, such as magnetic metal plates, that covers any possible gap in the floor. Other railroad passenger cars have a diaphragm and magnetic metal plates to prevent passengers from falling or moving through the gaps between the cars. The curve radii of the railroads are also far greater than those of the subway.
-Hank
We could bring back D-Types and Multis ;-)
How else are people expected to get to the bathroom?
Also, the Metro-North shoreliners and ACMU-1100s, and anything on most other railroads all have exit / entry doors in the vestibule at the ends of the cars. Locking the storm doors in this case would be dumb, nobody would be able to get on or off.
You should ride the NJTransit Hoboken division, they leave the doors open on long rush hour trains... Same thing with Metro North's ACMU. A clearly dangerous practice that forces the passenger to use common sense and care when crossing between cars, one false step and there ain't no safety railing to catch you. In this scope, suddenly the whiplash effect doesn't seem relevent.
Railroad trains definitely do not lock the 'storm doors'.
because:
1. Conductors and crew need to pass through cars for communication or for punching tickets.
2. Passengers must be able to move to an area with sufficient seating.
3. Esp. on rush hour trains, people need space to stand. (Every rush hour NJT train I saw were packed with people in the vestibule and in the center door areas).
4. Railroads, esp Metro-North and NJT have vestibules. Subway cars do not. (And also, railroad cars are more roomier than subway cars and they have a vestibule).
5. Less safety hazards are taken into effect on railroads because between cars (or pairs) they have rubber curtains that block the outer areas of the train. Also, subway tracks are dangerous, with the 600V third rail present and the darkness)
I've periodically passed through between cars on an NJT train going well into 75mph. The reason why no one is jostled in the route is because railroads do not bump or rock as much as the unstable subway trains do.
Also, railroads do not scrape as much as subway cars do on curves. I think it has something to do with the curved radii of the track. I'll pretty soon know what it is.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
Here it is THE STRAPHANGERS LATEST RATINGS showing the "D" line most improved.
Peace,
ANDEE
I want to send my congratulations to the D and Q lines which both serve the brighton route. Does anyone second this decision? And, are you regular riders of these two lines?
N Broadway Line (LOCAL)
I second the notion, and yes, I'm a regular rider of the D and the Q. And proud of it! Pretty soon I get to be a regular rider of the Q & Q. I like the sound of that.
It's a real shame the C line got the worst rating in the entire system. One would have expected an improvement after the line was cut back from Rockaway Park to Euclid Avenue. What could have resulted in this low rating? Perhaps it was the neighborhood it serves, or favoriting A passengers over C passengers... Huh? Nonetheless, at least the C score high in cleanliness.
N Broadway Line
If the TA favors the A over the C, God help the C! My experience with the A has been aweful on a regular basis. I seem to see more C trains than A trains (even though i know the C is not scheduled as often). More than once I have seen the C make better time up and down 8Ave/CPW than the A.
Piggo
The (A) Line sucks to no end!
1) It's almost "NEVER" on time.
2) It's slow all to be damned (No thanks to the addition of timers). You have C & B trains kicking it's ass up the CPW.
3) It's operated with the slow dog R-44s, only the worse car next to the French R-68. If you get a R-38 you may have a good time other than that forget it.
4) The (A) Line cars are so filthy 85% of them time, I can't remember the last time I had a clean car on the (A) Line.
If anyone finds anymore faults, don't be ashamed to add on....
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Please see my post about the A train. Last night (and this is not an unusual experience) I waited between 6:53 and about 7:28 for an uptown A at 145 Street. I find I usually wait over 15 minutes for an A train during rush hour. I now tend to stay on the #1 for the ride from 168 to 59th street, even with 14 stops, the 1 does better, not to mention the miserable transfer at 168.
Piggo
I'm really surprise to hear all this frustration about the A Express. When I use to ride it, it was always pretty fast. The only problem was when you lived at either Far ROckaway or Lefferts blvd. Other than that, the A was the best. Especially compare to the D "express." But that was a while ago. Again, best regards to A line passengers.
N Bwy Line
I realy dont understand what has hapened to the A/C line. There was once upon a time where the 8th ave line was concidered the flagship service of the subway. Now,you can barly get one,and when you do your are bound to be late because the train is late. What ever happend to ''you are sure to get a train every 3-5 minutes'' statment some years ago when the R110 came along,and all those service improvements came along with so much fanfair. Were the line headways incress with the all day express service,and what happened to the C,with it's terminals consolidated and somewhat reduced,you would think that would be an improvement of some sort. Maybe the line needs to be split into two different routes, like the TA wanted to do some years ago. Hey,you never know,whatever works to improve on what we got is better than nothin' at all
One other thing. I still think one of the routes should be sent to Manhattan from Brooklyn via Houston st/Rutgers.It could be A=FarRoc via 8th ave HOUSTON Fulton express, or H=Rockaway Park via 8th Ave/Houston/Fulton Exp and or C=Lefferts local via fulton/houston loc or exp. any thing
-Every day when I go to school there's always tons more people on the 4 than the 5.It could b worse,I hate to ride the A or E.
Every day when you go to school? What school is that?
"CROUDED" is actually spelled with a W.
Hope it isn't Harvard.
Or Hahvahd.:-)
Remind me to hire you as my press secretary if I ever get elected to high office. Dude, you are a gem, and I'm glad we are friends and not adversaries because you would be a tough scene. Crouded!!! That was priceless. And I had better proofread my work as well. Have a great day. That poor guy must have egg all over his face.
Well my brother this will be the future of you JAPENESE built R-142s !! LOL !!
Well my brother this will be the future of your JAPENESE & non USA etc.... built r-142s, scrap-ready-junkers.... !! LOL !!
in the not so distant future the r-142s will be no railfan window blacked out blocked of slow full of sh-- &
just like some of the non railfan window cars of the A train is now ( check it out ) !!!!
What does the R-142s have anything to do with the (A) Line.....Get Over It!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
plenty ! as i said this is the future of your R-142s you are jumping up & down about at rail stations ( as you posted it ) !!!
Well my brother this will be the future of your JAPENESE & non USA etc.... built r-142s, scrap-ready-junkers.... !! LOL !!
in the not so distant future the r-142s will be no railfan window blacked out blocked of slow full of sh-- &
just like some of the non railfan window cars of the A train is now ( check it out ) !!!!
OK, I'm making my railfan trip to NYC the 20-22nd of this month and was going to ride the A from one end to the other to see the sights. I know very little about the various trains on the line. What train should I be looking for to ride? Is one model better that the other?
Thanks in advance
The (A) line uses R44, R38, and sometimes R32 cars. Links are provided for eacxh car type to show what they look like. As for the best, go with R32's and R38's. The trains on the line are 10 cars long (8 R44's), and come from both 207th Street and Pitkin Yards.
There are actually 3 good parts to the line: Central Park West express (125 to 59 Streets), Fulton Street express (Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Euclid Avenue), and the stretch between Howard Beach-JFK and Broad Channel.
This site has station by station guides for each line in the New York subway, as well as systems in Philadelphia, Washington DC, San Francisco, and others. Here are links for those on the (A) line.
8th Avenue Line (207th St to Jay St)
Fulton Street line (Court Street* to Lefferts Blvd)
Rockaway Line (Aqueduct Racetrack to Rockaways)
Hope this helps.
It's pretty easy to differentiate. For a railfan ride, you want an R-38, not an R-44. What's the Difference? The biggest one is that the R-44 A trains have a Big blue circle with a white letter A on the front of it. These trains do not have railfan windows. R-38's have a small flipdot A above the storm door (railfan window).
Just to make sure,here's a picture of an R-38
And, here's one of an R-44:
note, you may also see an R-32 on the A (rare) which has fluted sides on the whole body, but is otherwise physically similar to an R-38.
And, make sure you ride an A going from 207th to Far Rockaway, Not 207th to Lefferts Blvd.
Two models of train generally run on the A: the R-38 and the R-44.
They're easy to tell apart at a quick glance. The R-38 has corrugations in the exterior wall (halfway up -- if they go all the way, that's an R-32, which is otherwise similar) and old-fashioned rollsigns -- except in the very front, where there's an illegible flip-dot sign. Inside, the seats are gray benches facing the center of the car. The R-44 has electronic route signs (except in the very front), and inside it has colorful seats, some of which face forwards and backwards.
Which is better? Many here like the R-44. I don't.
Of relevance to the railfan is that the R-38 has a window at the very front (the so-called railfan window). Well, the R-44 does, too, but it's blocked by a transverse (full-width) cab; if you can see at all out the front, your view will be fuzzy. The R-38 also allows passage between cars, should you board somewhere other than the front (but please be careful and hold on if you pass while the train is in motion).
So I'd suggest waiting for an R-38. The only problem with that plan is that you probably want the Far Rockaway branch of the A (the Lefferts stub isn't anything special), which only runs at 20-minute intervals for most of the day, and more than half of the cars used on the A are R-44's, so you could easily be waiting over an hour. Going south, I'd recommend taking the first R-38, even if it's going to Lefferts, and changing at Rockaway Boulevard for a Far Rockaway train (whatever comes). Going north, take whatever you get at Far Rockaway and, if it's an R-44, wait at RB for an R-38. Or just live with an R-44 the whole way, or ride during rush hour when service is more frequent. (If you don't mind a local ride, the C, which overlaps the A on the local tracks from Euclid to 168th, runs only R-32's and R-38's, both of which have railfan windows.)
recently there's r32's on the A also, had one last weekend, 1st car #3715. this was a lefferts train. also saw an A with 8 r32's and a pair of r38's trailing.
>> It's slow all to be damned (No thanks to the addition of timers). You have C & B trains kicking it's ass up the CPW.<<
This annoys me. I've never seen this. I've seen A train catching B trains that left 3 minutes ahead of it at around 103rd st.
>>It's operated with the slow dog R-44s, only the worse car next to the French R-68. If you get a R-38 you may have a good time other than that forget it.<<
Again, I've seen the R-44's doing over 40 on numerous occasions. I get a kick out of these opinions.
>>It's almost "NEVER" on time.<<
Funny, It's always on time when I ride it which is..... EVERYDAY!!!
Stop ragging on the A line. It's a good line, but I won't deny it has problems.
It's funny how someone name J trainloco is such an "A" advocate. What about advocating for the slowest line (I think) in the system ---the J.
N Bwy
not since they added the Z
>>It's funny how someone name J trainloco is such an "A" advocate. What about advocating for the slowest line (I think) in the system ---the J.<<
It's funny how someone named N Broadway Line could start a thread entitled "N" WORST IN GETTING A SEAT.
But, the J in my handle is for my first name's first letter. To be honest, I don't care about the J, my favorite lines are (in order of how I like them):
A- because when I was little, I used to watch A trains flying by Clinton-washington while I waited for a C train. I got to see 5 A trains and 1 JFK express before my C train came.
F- becuase I always rode it to Coney Island. G to F. Plus, it's not on the Manhattan Bridge-go-round.
5- because 5 is my favorite number. (what a trivial reason, no?)
and, sort of,
N- because it's got (had)those cool center express tracks, and because when I first came to the message board, I watched the Brighton become the favorite while the Sea Beach was picked on with only one person to defend it, SB Fred. I hate favorties (ex. LA Lakers, Dallas Cowbows). Yeah, that reminds me, where were you while everyone tore the N line apart?!? (just kidding. remeber i'm an F fan).
Why on earth would a B Train leave 3 minutes early?
I don't think that's what he meant. The way I interpreted it, the B left 59th St. 3 minutes before the A did, and the A still caught up with it at 103rd St.
That's impressive? That's five local stops skipped.
I had a great ride on the C a few weeks ago. We kept passing the same A, until we caught up with the next A in front.
I'm surprized the A caught the C at all.....
REALLY????
The A for a LONG TIME (AS LONG AS I KNOWN IT), has always been the FASTEST LINE IN THE SYSTEM. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO IT SINCE I MOVED TO ASTORIA?
OH! I CAN'T FORGET TO MENTION THIS!!! Back in June I got off the E "express" only to step right onto the A EXPRESS!!! Guess what happened folks? Not only did the A EXPRESS leave the station before the E "express", we were FLLLYYYYYINNNNNGGGGGG! I can't remember a ride like that from any other line. We WHERE A MOVIN AN A' SHAKIN!
That has always been my experience on the A train, even when I was very young.
Too bad I no longer live on the "A" Line. Toooooooo Badddd..
N Bwy LOCAL
Wouldn't the 2nd expresses fly right into the other's ass? I've never seen a station with 2 express tracks in NYC with the A and C being both express in June.
I've never seen a C running express, period. OTOH, I'm in the city only once a year nowadays, so take it with a grain of salt.
I still remember when the E ran express in Manhattan during rush hours.
The A may still be my personal favorite, but it still ain't what it used to be.
The C often runs express due to GO's. The D typically picks up the slack above 59th.
Oh, and a C once bypassed my station on a battery run nonstop from 103 to 72. I'm not sure why it skipped specifically the three stations it skipped -- they're probably the busiest three CPW local stations.
I do remember being on an A train once which blew the doors off a prewar CC along CPW.
Back before I grasped the platform arrangement at 42nd St., I found myself puzzled and bewildered when I saw a northbound prewar AA train go by where I was standing at the southern end of the southbound platform. Where was it going to stop? How can a local skip a station? A few weeks later, everything fell into place while on a northbound A train. Just as we were leaving 34th St., I glanced over to the local track and right then and there it all made sense.
While I have seen and ridden on a 1 running on the express track, I have never seen a C on the express track.
>>>>>I have never seen a C on the express track.
They had a GO a few months back where the southbound C went express from 145 Street to Canal Street all day for about two months. Guess you missed the boat.
Yep, I missed the boat. I haven't been in the city since last October, and will be making my annual visit in three months.
"Back before I grasped the platform arrangement at 42nd St., I found myself puzzled and bewildered when I saw a northbound prewar AA train go by where I was standing at the southern end of the southbound platform."
The AA used only 4 cars, so it appeared the train was passing the entire station. It was only passing part of the station, stopping at the front end of the platform.
[The AA (pink) was the sister coponent of the "A"] [Today the C serves similar functions like the former AA, however, it is more like the son of the "A" than a female. The B, on the other hand, is a female counterpart of the D which I will consider a Male. I can go on, and on about this. The F is a female coponent of the E which is male and the R is a female coponent of the N which is male. ENOUGH ALREADY! DAMMIT!!!]
The AA always fascinated me. Especially how people would run for the train. And if you thought the "A" was fast, the AA was even faster. Plus it was known for busting into the station and coming to a screeching hault something like the "A" today.
I missed the double "A" and will never forget the great experiences I had with that line.
N Broadway Line
I always considered the "E" to be "female" and the "F" "male".
The "J" is Female, the "M" is male. and so on. and so on....
wayne
Nawwww. The E was a light blue color while the F was pink in color. Clearly pink is associated with feminality. Also, look at the trains the E uses. They are very masculine looking, while the F uses more feminine looking cars.
Meanwhile, the A is the grandfather of all trains. The E is an adult male, and the C is a young boy.
By the way, your right about the J as being a female. And most definately! the M is a Male! But explain why you thought the F was male and the E was female?
N Bwy
As you know, 42nd St. has offset platforms with only a slight overlap. At the extreme end of either platform, all you see on the opposite side are tracks, so naturally trains traveling on them keep going. At the time I was describing, that station was still new to me, and I was just getting to know the subway system. All I know is there was no platform in the opposite direction where I was standing, and those trains appeared to be skipping the station. I can't remember for sure if that AA train was 4 cars long, but since it was a Saturday morning in September, it probably was. I ended up talking about that all the way home and into the evening. Not only with my folks, but also my cousins who were visiting. (E trains back then were 6 cars long and A trains, 8 cars.) By December, AA trains had grown to 8 cars on Saturdays, R-32s to boot, possibly because it was Christmas shopping season. A and E trains were 10 cars long.
"I do remember being on an A train once which blew the doors off a prewar CC along CPW."
heeheheee. I'm not surprised!!! The C always got it shared of abuse along CPW.... heeheheeeheheee. The A/B/D/E always got preference over the C which was relegated to longer clearance time.
N Broadway Line
I meant A and E.
Three theories as to why the A ain't what it used to be.
1. No more final field shunt step.
2. #$%@& timers and WDs. Understandable on sharp curves and at switches, but on nice, straight runs? Puh-leeeeeeaaaaase.
3. No more R-10s.
6th ave express is nothing special either. Frequently I get off an uptown B,D,or Q at W4th when an F arrives across the platform. Most of the time we catch up to the "express" at 47-50.
I thought you were a big fan of the so-called "dash." (I find it utterly boring. Still, I'll be sure to ride through it once more on a Slant next week before it's too late.)
Yeah the dash is great but after that you have express stops at 34th, 42Nd and 47-50. Even though I'm a fan of the dash for speed, it really does not save that much time (only two stops skipped).
You must be talking about the northbound run. That's not a dash, just a glorified climb. The southbound run is the ass - kicker. And that's the one I'm going to miss when the Manny B. flip takes place.
For some reason, 1980 comes to mind when the southbound 6th Ave. dash is mentioned. I rode on a few D trains along that stretch back then, and they positively SMOKED. And these were R-27/30 consists, some of which were signed as DD trains.
The 6th Av. Exp is really a big deal, esp. with the dash. The difference which you may be missing is that south of W 4 St, the B,D, and Q trains, (the so-called exp trains) make almost as much stops as the F local in Brooklyn. They're only express in Manhattan (not Brooklyn) during regular service hours. (except rush hours & late nights).
And of course, when the Exp. trains skip 14th and 23rd Sts, it IS a big deal. Skipping along a length of 30 blocks non-stop is nothing compared to the F local, even if the B D Q's stop at 34, 42, and 47-50 Sts.
I've had several experiences where I took an F train at W 4 departing northbound at the same time when an exp B left West 4 St. ohh.-we could never catch up to that B! (and I never saw it at 34, 42, or Rockerfeller Center Sta.)
Funnily enough, when we reached 34 St on the F, an express D train was pulling up at the same time that we were. Therefore, we can conclude that an express train is faster than a local one.
If anything is unclear to you, feel free to post me a message. ;-)
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
What time of day do y9u ride the A, just about every evening I wait over 12 minutes for a train, and that is not just missing one. I find I've had to wait up to 25 during rush hour for a north bound A at 59th street.
One other thing about the A, and this is something that I found it to be notorious for, especially in winter time - many times I have encountered legions of homeless men sleeping all over the seats of A trains, and those guys stink up the place. Many passengers step in, take a whiff, and jump out fast as they can. In the morning rush, that will really wake you up, even if you are almost dead. The transit workers cannot do much about that, and some of those derelicts are mentally ill also, which can be dangerous.
I agree, the long run is most likely why so many homeless ride it, and it is frustrating to have to stand while one dude takes up 4 seats. The problem is especially bad on a r44 when you can't move to another car....
>>What time of day do y9u ride the A, just about every evening I wait over 12 minutes for a train, and that is not just missing one. I find I've had to wait up to 25 during rush hour for a north bound A at 59th street.<<
I ride the A at 7:20-8:00 and 3:00-4:45 (varying school schedules)
40 MPH AIN'T SHIT!
When you got R-38s doing close to 50, R-46s doing 56, and R-142s being clocked at over 60 MPH, the R-44s ain't doing a damn thing!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
besides, 40 is average for most subway lines today.
>>besides, 40 is average for most subway lines today.<<
hahahaha. What subway are you on buddy?
Most New York subway lines operate around 40 mph's. Anything above 40 is risking the lives of the passengers.
N Bwy
>>Most New York subway lines operate around 40 mph's. Anything above 40 is risking the lives of the passengers.<<
No. They get to 40 maybe 50 in the underwater tubes. But in the city? 30,35. 40? rarely (xcept on the IRT, the CPW and the dash)
Maybe 40 MPH top speed. Maybe 25 between-station speed.
>>When you got R-38s doing close to 50, R-46s doing 56, and R-142s being clocked at over 60 MPH, the R-44s ain't doing a damn thing!<<
Well then, there are a few things you should know.
I'm sorry to tell you, but the R-38's rarely reach 50. And I've seen an R-44 at 48 on the CPW exp run.
R-46 does 56. When did this happen? Once, on a downgrade, hmm?
R-142 does 60. When they're in regular service, they won't be doing that. But, if you want to compare top all-time speeds, the R-44 did 75 on the Sea Beach Express tracks. And that's the in system top speed. What about when it was on the LIRR
Regards
J-Dub
www.let'sseeyoutopthat.com
i was on an r46 (F) that did 58mph between 23rd-ely and manhattan; saw it clearly too b/c the motorman was operating with the door half open. i was also on an r38 (A) a few days later that seemed to be going even faster between high street and b'way-nassau. i was riding last car (almost as entertaining as the front window and alot less likely to be already occupied), wish i'd seen it from the front, it's a signal controlled descent, but i don't think the guy touched the brakes once. it felt like 60-plus, but it probably wasn't....
The R38's are known to rock more than the 46's. Especially the back car.
N Bwy
The 38's use to be really fast, but the MTA was having problems with them, so I think they slow their acceleration somewhat. These trains were able to reach a top speed and drop to a slow quickness and stop. I witness this when they use to come in at West 4th Street. Four cars enter station at top speed than the whole train comes to a halt.
The 44's and 46's use to be the worse trains in the system before they was sent back to the repair shop. Once these two trains came back, the 46's became one of the fastest train with the 44's right behind them. Both trains have very comfortable accelerating levels. They don't feel like it, because they are design better (particularly for comfortable).
I never really liked the 32's.... Especially the 32's that are use on the E line. They are very airy sounding and don't have that kick to them like the former 38's.
oh wait... forgot.. The 46's had the slowest acceleration of any train - similar to the 68's today.
I'm talking from experience not scientific fact.
N Bwy LOCAL (LINE)
5. The R-10s are no more.
That said, the A is still a sentimental favorite to me.
C is terrible because it is a crowded train and worthy to be 10 cars.
Neighborhoods are a big part when it comes to ratings.ENY, Brownsville Bed-Stuy...
Park Slope, Upper West side...
It's people also makes a difference. We are all responsible for our suroundings and the neighborhoods the system goes through is only as clean and safe as it's people it serves!
It's a real shame the C line got the worst rating in the entire system. One would have expected an improvement after the line was cut back from Rockaway Park to Euclid Avenue. What could have resulted in this low rating? Perhaps it was the neighborhood it serves, or favoriting A passengers over C passengers... Huh? Nonetheless, at least the C score high in cleanliness.
N Broadway Line
The G scored worse in breakdowns. What I understand, the G uses the R46 cars, doesn't serve Manhattan, and has one of the shortest routes in the city. Nothing seems to add up to the straphangers report. Therefore, my question is, WHY did the G score the worse when it comes to breaking down?
N Broadway Line
What the hell is that? The G Line uses R46. If the G Line has bad breakdowns, the F and the R must also have high breakdowns rates. And where the hell do this get this crap from?
Maybe from the fact that different routes use different maintenance yards. Are the G's R-46 cars and the F's R-46 cars serviced in the same place? Is there a quality control problem in one of the shops?
One of the reasons the Corona Yard performs so well, year after year, is that the shop services only one class of subway car, and they're good at it. When the R-62's replace the Redbirds, that tradition should continue.
And the fact Train Dude has been to long gone from Jamaica >G<...
Jamaica serves all R-46s.
Maybe they meant the G line was bad during breakdowns, due to the fact that it is damn near impossible to reroute trains around a stall?
Judging from their outward appearance, the frequency with which I enter a car in which the air conditioning is not functioning, and the consistently grimy, dirty interior, I would say that, while the 'G' is served by R-46s, they must be the dregs of the fleet. (I know nothing of the mechanical fitness of the stock.)
Even the MTA is concerned about PR, and it would make sense for them to put the crappiest cars on a line that serves relatively poorer city residents and will see no tourists. Let's face it. While Williamsburgh and Greenpoint are becoming more trendy these days, their residents can't compete with Upper East or Upper West Siders in terms of political voice. The 'G' does not serve wealthier Manhattanites, who pay more in taxes for the system as a whole and have more political clout and influence (did someone say, "Campaign Reform?"), and the only tourists you will find on it are railfans. I mean, c'mon, this is the line they are cutting in half to accomodate the new 'V' service. I bet if the MTA were forced to operate on a strict ratio of revenue to expense, they would have to scrap the 'G' line altogether. (I didn't say that neighborhoods along the 'G' have no influence, mind you.)
(BTW, I think, as long as it's being cut out of Queens, 'G' service ought to be extended farther into Brooklyn than Smith/9th, with either the 'F' or 'G' trains utilizing the express tracks. At least to Church Av.)
The only reason the R-143s will debut on the 'L' line, with a mere 5 stops in Manhattan, is because the line is the most self-contained of the B Division, and they want to test the new ATO system. You better believe that without ATO testing as a factor, those babies would be on the 'A' or other Manhattan trunk line in a heartbeat.
G can't use the express tracks between Bergen and Smith - 9. No track connection exists to bring the Crosstown to the lower level.
As for the 143 testing: I think it will be tested in revenue service on the B2 division, either the C or Rockaways shuttle, before going to the L. I have no official information which states this, but common sense dictates that you test the trains on lines with easy access to the test track; so that they can be modified, test track tested, and revenue tested without any wasted time and effort in equipment moves. Think about it: Would you test the 142 on the #7?
The A/C on the R46 trains is usually pretty good. The worst is the redbirds.
I've been on Redbirds that cool better than the R68. R68A is another story.
>>Maybe from the fact that different routes use different maintenance yards. Are the G's R-46 cars and the F's R-46 cars serviced in the same place? Is there a quality control problem in one of the shops?<<
Jamaica yard serves all R-46 subway cars, as well as some R-32's. Further, R-46's have some of the Best MDBF's around.
But nobody has mentioned the fact that the G uses some cars out of the regular R-46 pool, the 2 car R-46 units. In my opinion, these cars are some of the poorest maintained Jamaica units around. They even look rougher than the very 4-car set they are coupled to when in service. This could be a possible reason for the G line problem. A few times I have noticed a 4 car set of '46s running in place of a 6 car set (thus creating an 8 car G), and R-32 consosts on the G are indeed becoming more commonplace. Thus, I am led to believe that the G's have some sort of breakdown problem.
As you had mentioned in your post poor maintainence may be the reason that there are more breakdowns on the "G" than on other lines.
BMTJeff
You're correct about the 2 car units.On Sunday, if I park my car in Jamaica yd,I check to see if any 2 car units are in the maintenance shop.Most of the time,I don't see any.When the G runs OPTO, the 6 car trains all get laid up and they cut R trains for the OPTO service.This is the perfect opportunity to work on these cars.Here's what happens.They lay up three 6 car pieces on D3 track between Supthin blvd and Briarwood for the weekend.In addition, they lay up three more trains in the yard on a track next to the car wash.Those trains sit in the same spot all weekend. Whatever G trains you have left are put on other tracks in the yard.They can get the 2 car units off of these tracks with no complicated moves since they are the head out 2 cars.If you need a 2 car piece from the second or third train on that track next to the wash, you'll have to pull out any 6 car sets that are in the way to get 2 cars. BTW, those traind stored between Supthin and Briarwood are put back in service Sunday night/Monday morning when the daily schedule goes back into effect.
Perhaps the F R-46s are serviced better, because the R has bad breakdowns too. Maybe since those G's and R's are run together, that explains their problems.
I don't think they have the fleet divided and set for a specific route.
You're correct.Some of those F trains laid up pn D4 track between Parsons blvd and Briarwood come directly off the R line provided there are no defects or cars due for inspection within the consist.The R will get its service from Jamaica yd as a result of a.m. crews reporting to Jamaica yd.
So you're confirming my impression that there is a quality control problem. 2 car units should receive the same services and care the other cars do. Somebody at Jamaica Yard isn't paying attention...
"The N ranked worst, where riders had only a 19% chance of getting a seat."
I'm not surprised.
N Broadway Line
Eh?
I ride it just about every weekday - always get a seat coming home, and if I don't get one coming in the morning in queens, there's usually a few open by 57th st.
perhaps it's worse brooklyn bound?
It's impossible to get a seat on the N train going to Queens at rush-hour, when boarding at Lex/59th. In fact, it's sometimes impossible to simply get on the train.
Same with the 7 at Grand Central, Queens-bound, rush-hour. You'd be surprised at just how many people just go back to Times Square to be the first on the train when it goes back to Queens, not just to have a seat, but to be fortunate enough to just get on the train.
Nice to know my train is so popular with Queensians. Now if we can only make it popular with Brooklynites we might yet get over the Manny B.
I've always wondered who the 7 was screwing to get its high ratings, what with it's screechy, hot redbirds and whatnot. But now the "Q" has overtaken it.
:-) Andrew
So after years of them old Redbirds ranking No. 1 in Gene's ratings, the new winner is ... the R-40 Slants on the Q-Brighton, which of course, is the next series of cars (along with the R-38s -- how'd they miss getting on the list?) targeted for replacement.
Going by this system, look for Train Dude's R-68 Concourse yard D and B trains to get the best rating from the Straphanger's Campaign sometime around the year 2018 :-)
"So after years of them old Redbirds ranking No. 1 in Gene's ratings, the new winner is ... the R-40 Slants on the Q-Brighton, which of course, is the next series of cars (along with the R-38s -- how'd they miss getting on the list?) targeted for replacement."
Straaannggee... isn't it? Some years ago when the B was using those R40 slants, it scored terrible on breakdowns and infrequent service.
N Bwy
Ah yes, you got that right. Slants on the Brighton express make this run the most fun. I hope the R40's remain there after the bridge flip.
They have to-part time service {Diamond Q} always gets the older cars in this setup
"For the fourth year in a row, the line with the greatest regularity of service is the M. It stuck to its scheduled intervals of service 91% of the time; the line experiences significant gaps in service or bunching of trains only 9% of the time."
Best in Regularity
I don't know too much about the M line, because it was years since I rode it. But my guess is that it scored high, because it is not schedule as frequent as the other lines. However, you would have thought it would score the lowest since it meres with many lines.
Worse in Onetime schedule
Meanwhile, I have to say I was surprise the 1/9 scored the lowest rating when it came to sticking to the schedule. It is one of the few lines that doesn't merge with other lines unlike the M above.
N Broadway Line
Meanwhile, I have to say I was surprise the 1/9 scored the lowest rating when it came to sticking to the schedule. It is one of the few lines that doesn't merge with other lines unlike the M above.
The 1/9 doesn't have enough rush hour service for the busy local stations it (and only it) serves. It gets bogged down to the point where alternate trains are often sent express -- leading to inadequate service at the local stations downstream and to even slower service on the few trains actually making local stops.
"The 1/9 doesn't have enough rush hour service for the busy local stations it (and only it) serves. It gets bogged down to the point where alternate trains are often sent express -- leading to inadequate service at the local stations downstream and to even slower service on the few trains actually making local stops. "
hmmmmmmm. Your telling me that the local stations aren't crowded?
N Bwy
Just the opposite. The local stations are crowded but they're bypassed by not only the express (which runs at about half the headways of the local) but by many of the locals too. Keep in mind that the local stations in question are in (IINM) the most densely populated neighborhood in the U.S.; more people need to use them than many express stations elsewhere.
(Actually, I'm more familiar with this problem in the afternoon rush, when the issue is with people trying to get to the local stations. The express stations at 42nd and 72nd are jammed with people trying to get home if only a true local would show up. The locals that run express end up pretty empty, and they don't even gain much time bypassing local stations because the confusion at each express station yields long dwell times.)
This is why I've been advocating keeping enough of the Redbirds to substantially improve rush hour 1/9 service -- perhaps even doubling it south of 137th.
I read your post about improving 1/9 service and it makes at lot of sense. The skip stop still drives me crazy. I like the idea of the Broadway thru express Selkirk told us about. I'd gladly walk to 242 in the morning to get it (from my home station of 238)
Piggo
Express service north of Dyckman wasn't part of my plan, and I'm not sure how to implement it while still keeping adequate service at the local stations. That's not to say it couldn't be done, and I always enjoy a nice express ride.
My experience with the 1/9, which is pretty extensive is that it tends to bunch up and/or gap due to door holding. This is a very busy for almost its entire length south of say 168 and quite often I have seen peopel holding the doors and the C/R pleading for the passengers to please let the doors close. As a result one train gets held up, the ones behind it pile up leaving a gap and then several trains back to back to back. This often is addressed by running express on the local (mostly downtown) from 34th to Chambers. Frustracting many people.
The 1/9 in general has frequent service, when it can stay on schedule, it is one of the best. Compared to the "A", an alternative I often take from 168 to 59th street; the 1/9 is often quicker, despite having 14 stops compared to the A's three. I really cannot understand the A train's poor performance. Again last evening, the northbound #1 expereinced some problem at 137 and was turned back, leaving the passengers to find alternative routes. I walked over to the 8th Ave station and got a local B train to 145. While wating on the B, 2 A trains went by. I got to 145 at 6:53PM, I got an uptown A at 7:28, 35 mintues for an A train at that hour!!!!!!!! What is up with the A??? Almost everytime I decide to take it(and each time I wind up regretting it), I kick myself for it. Does anyone know why the A has such poor service? Am the only one who has these experiences?
Piggo
Where was the train marked to go to? What if you had to go to another branch other than it was marked for. Then that's annoying.
The problem Monday evening with the 1/9 was a signal tripped a train as it was leaving 145. (No the T/O did not hit it, the stop arm came up under the train.) Trains were turned at 137 and 96 to give the GBD service. I had the luxary of having to wait to the tripped train made it to V.C. so I could make my trip. (15 min. behind my leader.)
Thanks for the info, but I'm confused by the abbr. what does GBD and V.C. mean? Do you work the 1/9 often? I get it at 238 (about 6AM each morning, home around 8PM in the evening) to either 168 or 59.
thanks
Piggo
VC=242/Van Courtlandt?
General Business District Van Cortlandt
Don't even get me started on the C line. It's the way it is because the higher ups don't care about the line.
Every line it comes in contact with has priority over it. The A, B, D, and E always have the right of way. The C never has headways shorter than 10 minutes. The R32s and R38s it runs are falling apart. Anytime there's a problem with the north or south motors of the train, they don't fix the problem. Instead, they change the consist by putting the affected end in the middle or a different part of the train. A quick fix.
They don't even hold trains to make connections with the C! How many times have I came into Jay St. only to see the F pulling off? Or see the D pulling off at 59th St?
There aren't car cleaners at both terminals of the C like at other terminals. They're only at Euclid. And when delays keep the trains from getting there on time, car cleaners have maybe, what, four or five minutes tops to mop and sweep floors before they're sent out on the next run? That's not fair.
Sure, it's easy to say on the surface that the C is the worse line in the system. But why is it that way? Or does anybody even care?
"Don't even get me started on the C line. It's the way it is because the higher ups don't care about the line."
Pardon my possible outsider's ignorance, having been to New York only once, but this sounds a bit paranoid. Where would such a policy or feeling against the C line, distinctly, come from? It has little separate existence of its own, serves no separate neighborhoods from any other line. Where would it rise to being a distinct entity to either love OR hate in the minds of a TA or city official?! In other words, think how preposterous a declaration like "I hate the C line and I purposely make decisions to screw it over" (or "I love the C line and do everything I can to build it up") would sound to a non-railbuff, even a TA employee non-railbuff.
Don't even get me started on the C line. It's the way it is because the higher ups don't care about the line.
Pardon my possible outsider's ignorance, having been to New York only once, but this sounds a bit paranoid. Where would such a policy or feeling against the C line, distinctly, come from? It has little separate existence of its own, serves no separate neighborhoods from any other line. Where would it rise to being a distinct entity to either love OR hate in the minds of a TA or city official?! In other words, think how preposterous a declaration like "I hate the C line and I purposely make decisions to screw it over" (or "I love the C line and do everything I can to build it up") would sound to a non-railbuff, even a TA employee non-railbuff
It's not a matter of loving or hating the line. Transit management and city officials are more likely to take the C for granted, precisely for the reasons you cite - in many ways it's just an adjunct to the A and E rather than a separate line of its own.
"in many ways it's just an adjunct to the A and E rather than a separate line of its own."
You can say that to some degree, but we must understand that the C doesn't go to the Airport like the A. The E gets more preference because it serves a much larger passenger base, plus connects with the LIRR in Jamaica. And the B is the line that goes to Coney Island. With that said, you now see why the C line gets shabby treatment.
N Bwy
" It has little separate existence of its own, serves no separate neighborhoods from any other line."
The C line serves one of the poorest areas in the city. And it is covered by two other lines that goes in better neighborhoods.
N Bwy
So that's it, we screw the people in poorer neighborhoods while favoring the lines that go in better neighborhoods. That's not only unfair, it's pure crap. Has it ever occurred to you and those in charge of the trains that many in "better" neighborhoods have cars and can get around without the aid ofthe subway? And that those in poor areas are probably more dependent on the subway than those in more affluent areas? No wonder many poorer people get bitter over their treatment by those in power. Not to blame you because you were only giving your opinion on the matter, but when people in the minority communities start to complain and bitch about unfair treatment, maybe the rest of use should start to pay a little more attention because if what you say is true, then they have real and legitimate reasons to raise hell.
They don't complain, so that's why the problem never gets address.
In regards to the N Line, this line suffers the same fate, but for different reasons. It does not have the support from "THE ONE AN ONLY PETER VALLONE" who rather see the route demolished, than to see upgrade service anytime soon.
N bwy Line
You guys have a point there.The bloodsuckers we have here representing us could care less about subway service through here.I say the same about the J/M/Z and L lines...well,maybe not the L.[thats the TA's new pet project]The problems with the C can be solved with an simple extention to Lefferts Blvd,sending all the 8th ave exp trains to Far Roc and Roc Park. One of the services could be called H or K. A few cars from Concourse[R68]could be used to suplument sevice
Speaking of Lefferts Blvd, I wouldn't mine a C local terminating there. However, what about the majority of passengers who live there. Would they accept the new service as well, even though it would be more frequent?
N Bwy Local
Most of the day, Lefferts-bound A service runs at 20-minute headways. That translates to an average wait of about 10 minutes.
Most of the day, the C runs at 10-minute headways. That translates to an average wait of about 5 minutes.
The scheduled A running time from Chambers to Lefferts is about 34 minutes, of which the last 10 are from Euclid to Lefferts. The scheduled C running time from Chambers to Euclid is about 31 minutes.
Including the wait, then, it currently takes an average of 44 minutes to get from Chambers to Lefferts via the A. If the C ran there instead, it would take an average of 46 minutes.
(Yes, I'm simplifying somewhat.)
Thus, Lefferts passengers would spend 2 more minutes on the subway, assuming they don't bother taking the A and changing at Euclid. (If they do that, they could easily gain back the lost two minutes.) Far Rockaway passengers, who have headways reduced from 20 minutes to 10 minutes, gain an average of 5 minutes. Unless the Lefferts branch is at least 2.5 times as popular as the Rockaway branches, this is an overall gain for the average A passenger -- and, in fact, I strongly suspect the Lefferts branch is the less popular one.
There's probably no point in doing this, but through Rockaway service could be improved further by running peak direction A trains on the center track east of Grant. All trains would stop at Grant and 80th Street (the only access to the center track west of 80th is from the yard); only C trains and anti-peak A trains would stop at 88th Street and Rockaway Boulevard. The downside is that passengers from 88th and Rockaway Blvd (and the Lefferts branch itself) would have to backtrack to 80th to get to the Rockaways, and vice versa, since there are no switches west of Rockaway Blvd.
"Most of the day, Lefferts-bound A service runs at 20-minute headways. That translates to an average wait of about 10 minutes."
Just the "A" from Lefferts blvd? What about the "A" from Far Rockaway... how often does it run during the non-rush hour period?
"Unless the Lefferts branch is at least 2.5 times as popular as the Rockaway branches, this is an overall gain for the average A passenger -- and, in fact, I strongly suspect the Lefferts branch is the less popular one."
I use this branch often, so to answer your question, YES IT IS. NO AIRPORT, NO BEACH, JUST A DEAD END - Leading a person to think that plans to expand the el was discontinued.
"There's probably no point in doing this, but through Rockaway service could be improved further by running peak direction A trains on the center track east of Grant. All trains would stop at Grant and 80th Street (the only access to the center track west of 80th is from the yard); only C trains and anti-peak A trains would stop at 88th Street and Rockaway Boulevard. The downside is that passengers from 88th and Rockaway Blvd (and the Lefferts branch itself) would have to backtrack to 80th to get to the Rockaways, and vice versa, since there are no switches west of Rockaway Blvd. "
I think those are yard tracks, and was one time used by the JFK.
Anyway....
Two ideas I've been discussing on subway talk for sometime: One, peak express service (as you mentioned above), and a 24 hour shuttle service that would run from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park. The only problem, they need to build a second track they remove a while ago. This is very important, because, it will prevent bottlenecks b/t the shuttle trains. As of present, it turns into one track after the Manhattan tracks vere off.
This 24 hour shuttle service will eliminate the need of having one two "A" trains going to two seperate places.
N Bwy Line
>>Just the "A" from Lefferts blvd? What about the "A" from Far Rockaway... how often does it run during the non-rush hour period?<<
During the off-hour period, the A runs every 10-12 minutes. That translates into 20-24mins for both branches.
>>I use this branch often, so to answer your question, YES IT IS. NO AIRPORT, NO BEACH, JUST A DEAD END - Leading a person to think that plans to expand the el was discontinued.<<
But they both get the same service. The only time the "Rockaway" branch gets more service is during the rush hour, when the extras from Rockaway Pk. run. And, people between Broad Channel and Far Rockaway don't benefit at all.
>>Two ideas I've been discussing on subway talk for sometime: One, peak express service (as you mentioned above), and a 24 hour shuttle service that would run from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park. The only problem, they need to build a second track they remove a while ago. This is very important, because, it will prevent bottlenecks b/t the shuttle trains. As of present, it turns into one track after the Manhattan tracks vere off.<<
>>This 24 hour shuttle service will eliminate the need of having one two "A" trains going to two seperate places.<<
The only way the express service would work would be if the C were extended to Rockaway Pk. Otherwise, you have the problem at 88th and Rockaway Blvd that David Greenberger mentioned.
That shuttle plan is a bad idea.
1. Where will the north terminus of the shuttle be? If it's at Euclid, it conflicts with the C train. If it's at Broad channel, it defeats the purpose.
2. The A to Far Rockaway gets a lot of riders, and It's the main part of the A line. To get rid of that part would cause an uproar.
"That shuttle plan is a bad idea.
1. Where will the north terminus of the shuttle be? If it's at Euclid, it conflicts with the C train. If it's at Broad channel, it defeats the purpose.
2. The A to Far Rockaway gets a lot of riders, and It's the main part of the A line. To get rid of that part would cause an uproar."
Why is the shuttle from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park such a bad idea? Believe it or not, plenty of people who travel from one side of the island to the other will benefit from this plan. It will also reduce the need of having a Manhattan service because Rockaway Park will be served by the new shuttle line.
N Bwy Line
Just the "A" from Lefferts blvd? What about the "A" from Far Rockaway... how often does it run during the non-rush hour period?
The same. The A is scheduled at 10-minute intervals for most of the day, with the south terminal alternating between Far Rockaway and Lefferts. (Since the A runs more R-44 trainsets than R-38 trainsets, that means the wait for a railfan window to Far Rockaway can easily exceed an hour.)
I use this branch often, so to answer your question, YES IT IS. NO AIRPORT, NO BEACH, JUST A DEAD END - Leading a person to think that plans to expand the el was discontinued.
Yes, there is much reason to suspect that the Lefferts branch is far less popular than the Far Rockaway branch. It's safer to check the actual numbers than to speculate, though.
Incidentally, that beach isn't terribly popular. I spent some time a few months ago on the boardwalk in Edgemere. It's a very nice boardwalk but it's deserted.
Two ideas I've been discussing on subway talk for sometime: One, peak express service (as you mentioned above), and a 24 hour shuttle service that would run from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park. The only problem, they need to build a second track they remove a while ago. This is very important, because, it will prevent bottlenecks b/t the shuttle trains. As of present, it turns into one track after the Manhattan tracks vere off.
Where would this shuttle run? There already is a full-time shuttle between Rockaway Park and Broad Channel; it's the only service to Rock Park except for a few Manhattan-bound A's in the morning and RP-bound A's in the afternoon. How does your proposal differ from the status quo?
With the Lefferts branch handed over to the C, it might make sense to alternate the A between Far Rock and Rock Park. Stations on the Far Rock leg would see unchanged service from today; stations on the Rock Park leg would no longer require a transfer at Broad Channel; N. Conduit, Howard Beach, and Broad Channel would have twice their current service.
I can't agree with this statement, if only for purely selfish reasons. My train, the R, rolls thru some of the best neighborhoods in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Queens. Why, then, is the service so lousy? Why does it only operate as a shuttle late nites? O'Leary was presented w/a petition from R riders. He pretty much rezenly blew it off, saying something to the effect of "The public doesn't know what it's talking about--the R service is fine".
I don't dispute your opinion at all. Passenger flow is also a contributing factor to the C line demise. Plus, it doesn't go anywhere special like the Airports and places tourist want to see.
N Bwy LOCAL (LINE)
Don't kid yourself John, there is reason to be paranoid, as you put it, if you feel your favorite line is getting the short end of the stick. No one out there can dispute the fact that my Sea Beach has been victimized time and again by the shortsightedness of the powers-that-be. Consigned to that disgusting Montague Tunnel deep in the bowels of Manhattan while the there are TWO Brightons to have access to the Manhattan Bridge, the fact that the stations on the line in Brooklyn are full of peeling paint and refuse, and now I hear that when Stillwell is refurbished, guess what line will not be entering there while others will? Yep, you guessed it. So don't question some of us going off the deep end. Favortism does seem to exist.
But that's different, in that the Sea Beach is a distinct route that serves neighborhoods than any other route. Favoritism could affect such a line, based on who lives in the neighborhoods served and/or who represents the neighborhood in local and state legislative bodies. But the C is merely a somewhat-truncated local to the A express. Except that it makes more stops, there is NOWHERE the C goes that the A doesn't.
And that's an excuse not to have decent service on the line? What other line do you know of that has 10 to 12 minute headways at rush hour? I work the C every morning, so I know how crowded the trains are at rush hour. Those people in Bedford-Stuyvesant and East New York pay the same $1.50 as those in Jamaica and Forest Hills. Why should they be denied decent service? Because there are more apartment buildings than private housing? Because there are no landmarks or major buildings? Give me a break.
There's nothing more frustrating than seeing four A trains go by before seeing a C. Or sitting southbound at 50th Street while two E trains are crossed in front of you.
Better yet, try standing at one of those local stations in Brooklyn during the AM or PM rush. See if you sing the same tune.
"And that's an excuse not to have decent service on the line?"
I didn't say that!! The allegation was made that the C line is specially neglected or mistreated by the TA compared even with lines running on the same track through the same neighborhoods, and I was trying to figure out why TA officials or employees would single out the C for mistreatment and the A for better service when the C serves the same populations as the A, only as the local instead of the express.
"I was trying to figure out why TA officials or employees would single out the C for mistreatment and the A for better service when the C serves the same populations as the A, only as the local instead of the express."
Not exactly... The "A" serves the Airport PLUS three other terminals, so this might be the reason the "A" gets better treatment than the C.
OH! I can't forget! The "A" doesn't merge with as many lines as the C. The only other line that merges with the "A" is the D. So that might explain it all.
N Bwy LOCAL (LINE)
The A merges with its other branch. The A merges with the C. The A merges with the D.
I was trying to figure out why TA officials or employees would single out the C for mistreatment and the A for better service when the C serves the same populations as the A,
Save the effort because it just ain't so. The fact is that neither the A nor the C get priority over the other. Each has a scheduled arrival time at various interlocking plants. If a C arrives a few seconds before an A and the A is scheduled to leave first, the C will be held for the A. However, the converse is also true. Now 59th Street and 145th Street are both considered 8th Avenue line towers. At one point, 8th Ave trains were given priority over the B & D. While this is virtually always true for southbound Bs and Ds at 145th St., it seems that 59th St. plays no such games.
>>and I was trying to figure out why TA officials or employees would single out the C for mistreatment and the A for better service when the C serves the same populations as the A, only as the local instead of the express.<<
Simple. A whole lot more people ride the A train. All people east of Euclid. People getting off at B'way east new york, and Utica. More people ride the A than the C, period.
There's nothing more frustrating than seeing four A trains go by before seeing a C.
This might sound stupid, but the A line does go to 3 different terminals. Therefore, it is likely that the A line has the same amount of service as the C, depending on which station you use.
N Bwy
In the AM there are only 5 running from Beach 116 Street to 59 Street. Only 5 in the PM running the other way.
Ok. So what does that means?
N bwy
Small percentage of trains actually running to the 3rd branch.
"Or sitting southbound at 50th Street while two E trains are crossed in front of you."
Let's say the C runs every 9 minutes (which it does) and the E runs every 5 minutes (which it does). Being that the C doesn't run every 10 minutes, this time table might explain your problem somewhat.
Time table
E: 5 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 05 10 15 20 25
C: 9 18 27 36 45 54 02 11 20 29
When there's a merge in schedule, something has to give. Since the E carries a larger bulk of passengers, they get priority. Plus, it gets this priority because it's the only line coming from the East (QUEENS). No other line travels in this same pattern. But with the C line, you have the 1/9 lines as alternative options.
Can't forget to mention this, because of dwell times for holding doors, a lot of times the E trains are thrown off schedule. As a result, to keep service from suffering more, they rather hurt a smaller bulk of the passenger base (C) to favor the larger bulk of passengers who uses the E line.
I know it's not fair, but at least C line passengers have options like the 1/9, or A express.
N Bwy
When there's a merge in schedule, something has to give. Since the E carries a larger bulk of passengers, they get priority. Plus, it gets this priority because it's the only line coming from the East (QUEENS). No other line travels in this same pattern. But with the C line, you have the 1/9 lines as alternative options.
The F, N, Q, and R all enter Manhattan from Queens and turn south. The 1/9 has its own problems without help from the C.
Your missing my point. I'm talking about 8th Avenue, not Sixth Avenue or Broadway. If you live and work west of 8th Avenue, the E line becomes the most important train in your life. For instance, I use to live on 9th Avenue in the 42nd Street area, but I worked in Queens. They are people who lived further west from me. Do you think they are going to take the extra hike to Broadway when their destination is Queens? NO! They will more likely use the E train. That's why it's so important. Besides, the E line is one out a few lines going into Queens straight from Manhattan. Compare that with all the lines traveling to upper Manhattan. Noooo COmparison!
N Broadway Line
Your missing my point. I'm talking about 8th Avenue, not Sixth Avenue or Broadway. If you live and work west of 8th Avenue, the E line becomes the most important train in your life. For instance, I use to live on 9th Avenue in the 42nd Street area, but I worked in Queens. They are people who lived further west from me. Do you think they are going to take the extra hike to Broadway when their destination is Queens? NO! They will more likely use the E train. That's why it's so important.
Every line is important to the people who use it. To someone who lives in the same area and works, say, near 103rd and CPW (or vice versa), the C is a lot more important than the E. If anything, the commuter to Queens has a greater variety of routes available, even if some require a slightly longer walk.
Incidentally, if you live and work west of 8th Avenue, the C is more likely to be useful to you than the E. (The M11 may be a better choice than either one.)
Besides, the E line is one out a few lines going into Queens straight from Manhattan. Compare that with all the lines traveling to upper Manhattan. Noooo COmparison!
Let's see. The E, F, N, Q, R, and 7 go into Queens straight from Manhattan. (Soon the shuttle will take the place of the Q and the W will be added to the mix. And the A, J/Z, L, and M make it to Queens eventually.) The A, C, and 1/9 go to upper Manhattan. Not that I'm sure what your point is.
"Every line is important to the people who use it. To someone who lives in the same area and works, say, near 103rd and CPW (or vice versa), the C is a lot more important than the E. If anything, the commuter to Queens has a greater variety of routes available, even if some require a slightly longer walk."
True. But at least you have the 1/9 as an option. Plus, a short transfer from the A express to the B at 59th Street. With the E, you really don't have that many choice, unless you really want to go out of your way.
N Bwy
The distance from 42nd and 9th to the R (which you declared not an option to Queens, even though it runs on the same line there as the E) is just about equal to the distance from 42nd and 9th to the 1/9. And the 1/9 doesn't go to 103rd and CPW -- it goes to 103rd and Broadway, three long blocks away. If my hypothetical employee should be willing to walk four long blocks extra, so should yours -- bringing him to not only the R but the F as well (and, in November, the V).
I know how passengers think, they wouldn't want the R until they got to Queens Plaza. That's if they are going to one of the local stations.
"And the 1/9 doesn't go to 103rd and CPW -- it goes to 103rd and Broadway, three long blocks away."
I'm not talking about one passenger, I'm talking about passengers. Besides, the chances of a passenger living or working near the 103rd Street CPW station is slim. A larger bulk of passengers will be heading towards Columbus Avenue with lies almost b/t the Bwy and Cpw lines. So they got options.
And 103rd Street has a major housing project development over there too! And that's b/t columbus and Amsterdam Avenue. So The housing stock along CPW is very small in comparison.
N Bwy
No, not very many people live at 42nd and 9th and work at 103rd and CPW. On the same note, not many people live at 42nd and 9th and work at (insert Queens E station of your choice here).
At that point, the distance from Columbus to Broadway is about twice the distance from Columbus to CPW. If you think the R is too far away from the E at 42nd to be a reasonable alternative, then the 1/9 is too far away from the C at 103rd to be a reasonable alternative, even for people coming from Columbus.
I use to live in this area when I was a young child. Columbus Avenue almost sits in the middle of CPW and Broadway. Broadway is just a short block walk from Amsterdam Avenue. So that isn't twice the Walk. Remember, there is one side of the CPW that doesn't have any residence living there - which is central park itself. And the chance of someone living on that side of town is slimer than the Broadway side, which includes Amsterdam Avenue.
If I still lived over there, I will choice the number one/nine lines because the service is better. But if I just want to kill some time, than I will take the B and C lines which take forever sometimes.
I don't want to dispute with you, which line is better than the other. But knowing myself, I would choose the 1/9 lines over the B and C because the service is better. Anyhow, very few people live that close to the 103rd Street CPW train station to justify your arguement. And I bet you $100 that more people live on the #1/9 side than the B/C side.
N Bwy Line
Check an accurate map. The distances between CPW and Columbus, Columbus and Amsterdam, and Amsterdam and West End are about equal. By 103rd, Broadway has begun its northwestward slant towards West End, so the Broadway-West End block is longer than the Broadway-Amsterdam block. Columbus is significantly closer to CPW than to Broadway at 103rd. (At 72nd they're about equidistant.)
I'm not saying the B/C is "better" than the 1/9, whatever that means. I live directly above a 1/9 station and I only use the nearest CPW station when I want a walk and a change of scenery. The 1/9 is much more popular and it gets much better service, no question.
But you started out by claiming that the E is more important than the C because it's your only way to go to work. I pointed out that the R and F are one and two avenue blocks, respectively, past the E, but you considered it unreasonable to increase your walk by one or two avenue blocks. But, in your argument, you also pointed to the 1/9 as an alternative to the C, even though the 1/9 is one avenue block east of the C at 42nd and is 2-3 avenue blocks west of the C from 72nd until around 145th. If the 1/9 is an alternative to the C from your location, then the R and F are alternatives to the E.
the L jumps in and out of QUEENS for like a minute.
Granted.
Yeah the C is terrible. When I take 8th ave local I take the E, because I cannot fit on a C. This car shortage (esp B division) is one of the reasons why you see infrequent service on lines like the C.
The TA should not have been in such a rush to get rid of the older cars years ago. It was a big mistake. If we didn't get rid on the R10's for instance, we probably would've had full length C trains plus enough cars to put shorter headways on the N and have bridge service.
Why have IRT division cars like the Redbirds lasted so long but older division B cars like the R10's scrapped much earlier?
I think all plans to scrap anymore B division cars should be placed on hold. When the "L" line recieves it's R143's then the R42's and R40s could go to the C line.
They did a goh on the R10's only to scrape them. That was ac waste
The 110 green painted R10's were never overhauled, just cleaned up and painted. The R30A was given a more extensive overhaul and these cars should've been retained instead of being scrapped in 1993.
"The R30A was given a more extensive overhaul and these cars should've been retained instead of being scrapped in 1993."
DEFINATELY!!!! I AGREE!!!! THE MTA SHOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN RID OF THE R30's!!! THEY WHERE IN ALMOST PERFECT CONDITION!!! FAST AND RELIABLE!!!!
N BWY LINE
It's a case of "You don't know what you've got `till it's gone." The BMT and IND certainly could have used the extra equipment since the MetroCard transfers boosted usage, but I guarentee you, if the MTA had kept the R-30s, over the past four years on SubTalk there would have been God knows how many postings saying "I can't wait for the R-143s to arrive so we can send those wretched un-air conditioned B Division rustbirds to the scrapper. They and the (name your IRT Redbird model here) are the worst cars on the system."
Given that midset among the general public (mainly due to the AC absence), the MTA's decision back in 1993 was understandible, since most everyone wanted new, shiny and cool cars for their travels between June and September.
"Given that midset among the general public (mainly due to the AC absence), the MTA's decision back in 1993 was understandible, since most everyone wanted new, shiny and cool cars for their travels between June and September."
YEAH THEY GOT WHAT THEY WANT ALRIGHT!!! LONGER WAITS!!! AND A STINKING HOT SUBWAY PLATFORM!
N Bwy
John, once again you are making statements and allegations that you have no substatiation for. PROVE YOUR CASE. Where did you get the idea that there is a car shortage - especially on the C line? I can't remember the last time that the C line was down a train. It seems to me you should be working on your problems instead of making up problems for the subway system.
Then why does the C run short trains? They really need to be full trains. Just think all stations on the Fulton local aren't even served by full length trains. Those trains are packed way more than the A whenever I see the C. You can't possibly tell me the C train doesn't need to be full length.
The C does not run short trains. 'Operations Plannings' has mandated that the C line run trains of (8) 60' cars. Every day the C line runs the required number of (8) car trains. Hence, ther is no car shortage. Now if you are dissatisfied with 8 car trains, that's a different story - it MAY be a service quality issue but it is definitely not a car shortage.
You seem to be very careless in the way you use railroad terms that you don't fully understand. (For example - stating that the LIRR was "wrong railing" trains when it has reverse signal capabilities)
Dude,why doesnt the C use any R44 cars or 10 car trains? I often wondered that myself.
The people who do the studies on customer loading have determined that 8 car trains are adequate to meet the needs of the service. I have found the C a tad crowded between 59th St & Penn Station on some days but in general, the 8 car trains are more than adequate to meet customer needs over the majority of the line.
The people who make such decisions are balancing demands with business decisions. Sometimes they mesh and sometimes they don't. When the G is cut to 4 car trains in November, the 'value' of a ride on the G line will fall like a stone. - Another case where business decisions are put above customer needs. On the other hand, we have the franklin shuttle where community demands overpowered sound business sense.
So what your saying,the C line meets the demand of the riders even though it doesnt look like it,and the G won't meet rider demand because the TA doesnt think the line will warrent full leanght use. that sick.
It is not sick. It's my opinion vs the opinion of some people in Operations Planning based on numbers they've received. I hate to nit-pick but meeting customer demand is the same as the term, "quality". It means different things to different people. The C meets my needs because it gets me from Penn Station to 59th St. where I catch the D. I don't really care if I get a seat. Soem people who ride it for longer distances may feel the quality of the ride is poor because of crowds, speed, cleanliness, homeless, etc. Getting back tot he G, I've ridden it from Hoyt into Queens with 6 75' cars and it's been intollerable. I don't think the 4-car R-68s will cut it. Then again, with the trimming of G service to Ct. Square, ridership on the line may fall like a stone.
IMO, the ridership numbers shouldn't be affected by the switch to 4 car 68's. The G line operates through neighborhoods that heavily depend on public transportation so those people would ride even if you plopped 4 car R16's on them.
Oh geez, it's 3PM, school's out, and you've got 300 feet
of train every 10 minutes.
(It's my opinion vs the opinion of some people in Operations Planning based on numbers they've received. I hate to nit-pick but meeting customer demand is the same as the term, "quality". It means different things to different people.)
I do believe that if the TA had more cars it would be running more trains. I believe this even though:
a) Most of the ridership increase has been off peak, where service has been increased and capacity still exists (the Straphangers don't get this).
b) The places where you would most like to run more trains -- the Queens Blvd line, the east side of Manhattan, the Brighton Line -- are constrained by infrastructure -- the Manhattan Bridge, the lack of a QB connection (for the moment), the lack of a Second Avenue Subway.
Even so, there are some places where additional trains would be helpful, but there are not enough cars. Consider this:
a) The number of active cars is down a few hundred from 20 years ago.
b) The period between 1990 and 2000 was the longest without an new subway car delivery since 1904.
I know for a fact that the MTA had a plan to get beyond boom-and-bust ordering and purchase 150-200 subway cars -- and an equivalent share of commuter rail cars -- each year. That plan went down the drain due to a combination of fiscal mismanagement and the early-1990s recession. I attended an economic forecasting meeting at which a bitter MTA official complained about the demise of their plans (must have been 1995).
Can't extend the V to and G to Church and run the F express. Can't run the E as an express through to Brooklyn express and terminate the C at WTC to add service in Brooklyn. Can't run more #3 trains. The number of #7 trains is down from years ago. Why? Car shortage.
I agree with you. In November we'll see some improvement with the opening of 63rd St, and we'll need to wait until '04 for full Manny B service. Beyond that, we need more tracks.
The lack of a full length G train (I assume you mean route length) is not just ridership. Turning 3 train lines at 71st is going to be a bear. The other solution extending the V to Jamaica and bringing back an F express does not make to many friends either. If you mean train length, I almost always get a seat on the G except for a half hour during rush.
I think there is a shortage of cars but only certain types. TA maintenance is now vrey specialized. 207st yard won't touch a 44 for more than a broken window. If there were more 32/38's around the TA might run 10 car C trains but having to keep a maintance parts and specialists for R10's so the could would just cost too much. Maybe when the 143's are out there they might play musical cars with the jlm and the C,E to get those trains up to 10 cars.
The R143 will stay in the eastern division. The J,M,Z,L. The L will be completely comprised of R143s. The M will get them for OPTO and maybe for midday/rush hour service as well. The J and Z will get them only in the most extremes. They are in 4 car sets. A-cars NEED a B-car unit to run. B-car units NEED A-car unit to run.
Of course it would be a waste to put them on anything but those lines, they are short cars just for that reason.
Now are they quiet/safe enough to free up some of those slow speed areas?
Where do the freed up 40/42's go?
For maintainence reasons, I'd think the R42s stay on the Eastern Division and the R40s head out and perhaps the R40Ms as well. East New York has had the R42 and I'd think they'd be most experienced with them. R40s are at Coney Island in addition to East New York so if they leave East New York, I'd expect them to go there as Coney Island has experience with them. And R40Ms may go both ways. They're R40s except the #1 end.
The people who make such decisions are balancing demands with business decisions. Sometimes they mesh and sometimes they don't. When the G is cut to 4 car trains in November, the 'value' of a ride on the G line will fall like a stone. - Another case where business decisions are put above customer needs. On the other hand, we have the franklin shuttle where community demands overpowered sound business sense.
I'm not so sure I agree with the Franklin Shuttle example. The area it serves has been improving in recent years, and the loss of the shuttle might very well have been enough to cut short that recovery.
(On the other hand, we have the franklin shuttle where community demands overpowered sound business sense.
I'm not so sure I agree with the Franklin Shuttle example. The area it serves has been improving in recent years, and the loss of the shuttle might very well have been enough to cut short that recovery.)
The shuttle doesn't run frequently enough, and is not far enough from other stations, to make that difference. If they had rebuilt the junction at Franklin Ave and the terminal at Flatbush and Nostrand to increase capacity, it would have meant more to the community.
The shuttle doesn't run frequently enough, and is not far enough from other stations, to make that difference. If they had rebuilt the junction at Franklin Ave and the terminal at Flatbush and Nostrand to increase capacity, it would have meant more to the community.
Your first sentence is utterly false; your second sentence represents a "would be nice" scenario that would be worth weighing against other projects.
Rebuilding the Shuttle made good sense in the community, and, longer term, good business sense as well. More frequency would be welcome, of course.
Different corridor. The shuttle runs mostly north of Eastern Parkway, and connects to the IND. The 2/5 runs only south of Eastern Parkway and doesn't come close to the IND.
The C runs 8 cars because it always has run 8 cars and always will because that's all that's needed.
What about the B? It didn't always use to run 8 cars?
N Bwy
Only 8 75' cars. It's always used 600' trains.
"Only 8 75' cars. It's always used 600' trains."
WAIT A MINUTE! YOUR CONFUSING ME!!! The B ranned 8 R40 slanted Cars for years (like Q today). Now it runs 8 R68 Cars. The Difference is the size of the cars. So that's the change. Unless your saying it doesn't run 8 cars, but how is that possible with the R68 series?
N Bwy Line
I'm pretty sure the B ran ten cars when it ran R-40's.
The Q today runs ten cars of R-40's.
The only lines that regularly run eight 60-foot cars, IINM, are the C and the BMT Eastern Division lines (J, L, M, Z).
I have to say, I'm surprised! I always remember the B running 8 cars. Just about three years ago I rode the back end of the B from Bay Parkway to Pacific Street and could remember running towards the back of the platform to catch the N line which was right beside the B.
N Bwy
Are the 10-car stop markers in the same position on each side of the platform? They're not always. (IIRC, at Queens Plaza the locals and expresses don't line up.) That could explain why you had to run.
In the mid 1990's, the TA experimented with running midday 6 car B trains of slants, as well as 4 car C, M and J trains. I absolutley despised this practice.
Not true. 8 car trains of R40's and R42's were the rule thru the mid-1980's. 4 cars were common off-peak.
The B runs with eight 75-foot cars per train. When the B ran with slants (60-foot cars), it ran ten of them to a train. An 8-car train of R68s is the same length as a 10-car train of R40s.
But maybe now with a car shortage and the B and D trains being cut back to 34th Street, maybe the B should be operated with shorter trains. Does anyone knows what's going to run on the B and D lines when they stop running over the bridge?
>>But maybe now with a car shortage and the B and D trains being cut back to 34th Street, maybe the B should be operated with shorter trains. Does anyone knows what's going to run on the B and D lines when they stop running over the bridge?<<
Reportedly, the B was to be cut to 8 60' cars. But the concourse people didn't want to give up their R-68's which they had put so much work into. So, they Decided to keep the R-68's on the B train, and since you can't cut the R-68's (without some time in the shop) into 6 car trains, I'm led to believe that the B will run 8 75'car trains.
Absoluely correct on both counts.
Too bad they can't switch back the terminals of the B and C trains. Then 8-car R68 trains could run on the C and 8-car R32s trains could run on the B without introducing new equipment into the yards. IMO, the R68s should have been configured into permanent married pairs instead of permanent 4-car sets to have better flexibility, but it's too late for that. Had the TA not prematurely retired the R30 B-division Redbirds we might not have a car shortage today (they were in service for only 32 years before going to the scrapyards), but it's too late for that also.
"Had the TA not prematurely retired the R30 B-division Redbirds we might not have a car shortage today (they were in service for only 32 years before going to the scrapyards), but it's too late for that also."
What brought the MTA to scrap those cars (R30's) so soon.
N Bwy Line
What brought the MTA to scrap those cars (R30's) so soon.
Their inability to be refitted for air conditioning.
Not to mention dwindling ridership at the time plus IIRC their MBDF rate.
These are acceptable reasons for retirement, but not scrapping. Room extisted to mothball most of these cars, as they did the GE R16's in the late 1970's.
Apparently, the MTA decided it did not need the cars given 1993's ridership levels, and from a public relations standpoint, it was better to dump them and be able to claim that the entire IND/BMT fleet was now air conditioned than to keep them in mothballs or designated for rush hour-only use.
Had they remained, I'm sure they would be prowling the Eastern Division on the J/L/M/Z right now waiting for the R-143s to arrive, while the Slant 40s and probably the R-40Ms would be down at CI or at Jamaica yard preparing to handle the G/V yard assignment switch when the 63rd St. tunnel opens for regular revenue service.
I can understand that in 1993, ridership levels at current levels were unthinkable, but what about emergencies like extensive breakdowns, or a massive disaster? What happens if a fire broke out at ENY, destroying a number of cars? It's contingencies like these which would've mandated the still functioning R30's be mothballed, not scrapped.
they were falling apart
they were falling apart every run
"When the B ran with slants (60-foot cars), it ran ten of them to a train."
To my knowledge, the B never ranned 10 60-foot cars. Your mixing that up with the Q which presently run 10 60-footers. As a matter of fact, for all the years I've been using the B, it ranned like the C, 8 60-foot cars Box 40's, then the Slanted 40's which was taken from the "A" some years back.
SOME ONE HELP MEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
N Bwy local
I dunno, I rode the B all the time from 1992 to 1996 when I went to high school and I never saw trains of slant R40s with less than ten cars. I do recall seeing shorter trains of slant R40s on the B, but that was back in the '80s and I think it was when the B was running in two parts. That would be the last time the 6th Avenue Manhattan Bridge tracks were shut down.
Did anyone else witness this? I personally never say an full length B train until it aquired the 68 series.
N Bwy Line
>>I personally never say an full length B train until it aquired the 68 series.<<
It always ran full length trains in the 90's. Even when it had slants.
I saw nothing except 10-car trains of slants on the B before the equipment swapover.
This is true, except for a time in 1994-95 when midday B trains were truncated to 6 cars. This practice ended when the 1995 midday Manhattan Bridge full closure reroutes went into effect.
In the 1980s, the B ran to 168th St. At that time it ran 8 car R-40s and R-42s. By the mid 90s, they were running trains of 10 60 foot cars. Then around 1997 the B and Q swapped equipment for operational reasons but prior to that swap, the B's were 10 60' cars.
"In the 1980s, the B ran to 168th St. At that time it ran 8 car R-40s and R-42s. By the mid 90s, they were running trains of 10 60 foot cars. Then around 1997 the B and Q swapped equipment for operational reasons but prior to that swap, the B's were 10 60' cars. "
Great! My memory is working correctly.... somewhat?? hmmmm.... Could it be after 95?
N Bwy
I can be more specific. The B and K lines used the same cars during the 86-88 bridge flip, which was 8 car R42 trains. After the 12/88 flip, they always used 10 car slant trains, a la the southern B line. In 1993/94, they ran 6 car B trains durring midday and weekend hours. This practice ended permanently after the full midday Manhattan bridge closure went into effect on 4/30/95. The B and Q trains swapped cars at the beginning of October in 1997, and have been using 8 car R68 and R68A cars ever since.
cool
Well whenever I see the C it's cramped beyond belief. They could use more cars. Like most subway lines in recent years ridership should be way up.
I've never seen a cramped C train. Crowded, but not cramped, at least not enough to justify longer trains.
That was the IND policy - 10-car expresses and 8-car locals. OK, throw in the 11-car E and F trains of the mid-50s.
>>They really need to be full trains. Just think all stations on the Fulton local aren't even served by full length trains. Those trains are packed way more than the A whenever I see the C. You can't possibly tell me the C train doesn't need to be full length.<<
What trains are you looking at. Whenever I ride the C train, It is much less crowded than the A train. Only after Lafayette does the C get crowded. Why? because at Hoyt, people got off the G and get an A or C, and at Jay, the same happens. Otherwise, the C has always been adequately served by 8 cars. I rode the A/C everyweekday during the school year. Only when a C train was late was the C packed to the brim.
Well whenever I see them they are packed to the brim. Usually in Manhattan, but I've seen them pretty packed on Fulton as well.
Before the mid-1970's, the E ran to Brooklyn in rush hours rather than the C and got the benefit of full-length trains.
All that talk about not enough cars to provide better Queens Blvd service is wrong?
Leave us not talk of apples and oranges! There are an adequate number of cars to meet the mandated service requirements and maintain the current spare factors. When the next round of service changes goes into effect on November 11, 2001, there will still be an adequate number of cars to meet the mandated service levels and maintain the necessary spare factors. Them is the apples. Now if you want to talk about more cars needed to improve service, them is the oranges. I have not mentioned the oranges yet.
Okay, how many new cars would be needed to provide enough service for these route=J/M/Z Nassau st,A/C 8TH Ave,N/Q/W Broadway.E,F,R,G and soon to be V lines are based in Jamaica,all lines use R46 cars wih the exception of the E[uses R32 mostly],all 700 plus R46 cars are therealong with the 32's. HOW many more cars would make the ride more comfortable and suit service needs?
Oranges should come when the R-143s enter service on the L and the spare Eastern Division cars can be redeployed.
Orangebirds? Interesting idea, but I still like red.
Unh-uh.
The last of the R-10s actually lasted as long as the R-26-28s (41 years), and longer than the R-29s or the R-33/36s will. The cars that had short lives were the R-16/27/30 on the B Division and the R-12/14/15/17/21/22 on the A Division. All those ran 32 years or less.
In the R-16s case, and to some extent the R-21/22s, it was the fact that they weren't very reliable cars. But the main reason those cars were scrapped was because of the gripes by people (in public and on this board, me included) about the sweaty, non-air conditioned trains in the summer. The R-10 through R-22 cars couldn't be retrofitted for AC because they were single units (see the R-33WF for a real life demonstration), while the MTA decided the R-27/30 married pairs would become too heavy with an AC retrofit, and besides, eight years ago the MTA assumed that no one (relatively) was riding the subway, so we really don't need these un-airconditioned cars. Metrocard transfers blew that assumption to bits, and caused the car shortage there is now.
Is it true that cars on the London tubes have no A/C? If it is, than why can they get away with it there? I guess London has a cooler climate. Also NYC could've just ran some trains of R10s-R22's in winter when A/C isn't needed.
Agreed. More service is better than less service with 100% AC.
Is it true that cars on the London tubes have no A/C? If it is, than why can they get away with it there? I guess London has a cooler climate.
I'm not certain about London's climate. What probably accounts for the difference is attitude - here in the good old USA, people love their AC.
And central heating.
The London lines have little vents above the windows that can be opened to let air in, I found them not very effective. The end doors also have windows that can be opened, they are much more effective. The trains can be little warm at times, but it really isn't so bad. Like Peter said, aditude probably makes a differnce.
What makes London bad is the humidity more than the heat. AC would help that to.
Many R22's never made it to 30 years. A shame.
I'm sure deferred maintenance had a lot to do with it.
"The TA should not have been in such a rush to get rid of the older cars years ago. It was a big mistake. If we didn't get rid on the R10's for instance, we probably would've had full length C trains plus enough cars to put shorter headways on the N and have bridge service."
NO! You mean the R30's!!! The R10's was way overdue for replacement.
N Bwy Line
Yes they should have kept the R30s longer, but noooooo they just had to get to get rid of them, not preparing for something like this. I wonder if the actual people who made the decisions not to put A/C in the R30s and to scrap them so soon are still at the MTA. I wonder what other lame-brained ideas they have for our subway if they are.
FORGET THE A/C's! The trains ranned very well after they came from GOH. If I was crazy, I would KICK every single one of them involved in making such a stupid decision!!!
N Bwy LOCAL
There is no such word as "RANNED".
I think he's drunk right now. Or pissed that the N is still the Broadway local.
No, that's Sea Beach Fred.
I was wondering if anyone else noticed that.:-)
Give the ebonics loving educators on the left coast a chance, and they will make it a word.
would love to hear you speak. your probley better at it than most so called inner city kids,nowhaimsayin?what,youfrom Queens, right? the nerve.
My vocabulary and grammar are above reproach. In other words, I don't need to resort to silly street language when I'm printing text on the internet.
Maybe you should kick yourself for having such bad grammar.
RANNED?! WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN??? ;-)
BTW - I have some recollections of riding the GOH R-30's when I was younger with my folks, always on the C train. Not knowing any better at the time, I thought they were the exact same cars also used on the #2, 5, etc, and after a while I started wondering why I never saw them on the C anymore, and only on the "numbered" lines.
It was then that I realized that the "numbered" lines had narrower trains than the "lettered" lines. By that time, I was about 10, going on 11.
your right
Yes they should have kept the R30s longer, but noooooo they just had to get to get rid of them, not preparing for something like this. I wonder if the actual people who made the decisions not to put A/C in the R30s and to scrap them so soon are still at the MTA. I wonder what other lame-brained ideas they have for our subway if they are.
It was not possible to refit the R30's for air conditioning, or at least it would have been very expensive. Moreover, at the time of their scrapping, no one foresaw the big ridership increases that MetroCard transfers would soon bring.
Not to mention adding A/C to those cars would have increased their weight to BMT standard proportions.
Why anymore expensive than an R32 or R38 ? They were all basically the same car.
there you go.........!! right on !!
Most of the R-10s that were still around in 1989 were still in decent shape, flat spots notwithstanding.
"If we didn't get rid on the R10's for instance,"
Who is "we", John? Were you part of the decision process?
The R10's would be 53 years old today, and seeing how they were never really given a major GOH, they were properly scrapped at the proper time. The R30A redbirds, OTOH, recieved a more extensive GOH, and would only be reaching their 40th birthday this year. They should've been kept until the R143 could replace them.
Take a look at the lines with infrequent service. Most notably the C, G, J, and L lines. They go through mostly working class or poor immigrant areas. But also the C (like the A and E) travel along the West side of Manhattan which is a bit less "busier" than the east. The E is a major Queens trunk line and it comes the most often on 8th avenue. But it seems waits can seem like forever for an A or C. That may also play a factor, because there seems to be way less trains on 8th ave in general than 6th.
There's no concrete proof that poor areas get worse subway service. But it may be that riders aren't heard as much. You take a look at LIRR and LI Bus. You always hear about commuters on LIRR complaining and LIRR responding. Now with LI Bus who would know they even exist since most people who ride it aren't even U.S. citizens.
"Every line it comes in contact with has priority over it. The A, B, D, and E always have the right of way."
I don't know about the D line, but it depends with the E line. There has been plent of occasions when we had to wait for the C to clear our signals. That's when we are going towards 42nd Street (downtown) which makes sense! However, the C is forced to wait for the E line even though the E came in the Canal Street station (uptown) a short time later. That's also makes sense because, at this point, the E doesn't have to switch to another track.
Forget about the A, it always get preference, FOR GOOD REASON, the C is always forced to switch to the "express" track which takes time. So I can understand why The A gets FULL preference over the C. It still isn't a good reason for shabby serivce on the C line.
N BWY LINE (LOCAL)
C service is perfectly adequate. The fact it's a complete local is why it's so unpopular.
"C service is perfectly adequate. The fact it's a complete local is why it's so unpopular."
Also, crowding, neighborhoods, being surrounded my more "higher" lines giving the C the short end of the stick, the fact that it isn't known to go to any significant place. An idea would be make the C end at WTC and let the E go to some place like Far Rockaway, thereby the A only has to worry about Lefferts Blvd and people can get more service out of it.
>>Also, crowding, neighborhoods, being surrounded my more "higher" lines giving the C the short end of the stick, the fact that it isn't known to go to any significant place. An idea would be make the C end at WTC and let the E go to some place like Far Rockaway, thereby the A only has to worry about Lefferts Blvd and people can get more service out of it.<<
You'd get the same results if you sent the C train to Far Rockaway, which isn't going to happen. If anything, a train will go to Lefferts, and not Far rock. Or the C could be extended to Rockaway Park. But Generally, you run express trains farther out than local trains.
I like the idea of sending the E to Brooklyn, but that's not going to happen. The E runs too frequent to be the Fulton Local.
I remember being on A express from Lefferts Blvd and passing three E trains before we got to J street. That's when they was sending the E trains to Euclid Avenue. I was amazed by the frequency of those trains too! We hardly pass one C train on that same trip.
N Bwy
The E runs very frequent, and I liked having it in brooklyn. But now, that's just a memory...
It's headways created an annoyong logjam from Canal St. to Hoyt. The C is never really crowded anyway, even with it's longer headways. It's perfectly adequate as the Fulton St. local. But it runs through many black neighborhoods full of people Russianoff can use to achieve his goals.
As I've said, if the IND people had been able to see into the future, they would have built a connection between the Fulton local tracks at Hoyt and the tracks coming to and from Bergen St. for the F train. That would have allowed the Eighth Ave. local to share the Rutgers tube with the F between Jay Street and B'way-Lafayette before switching back to the Eighth Ave. line, freeing up the additional track space between Hoyt and Canal for more A train service both to Lefferts and the Rockaways. The C would have no problem sharing trackage with the F train, and the only station that would lose service would be Spring Street at Sixth Ave., which would only have the E train stopping there.
"As I've said, if the IND people had been able to see into the future, they would have built a connection between the Fulton local tracks at Hoyt and the tracks coming to and from Bergen St. for the F train. That would have allowed the Eighth Ave. local to share the Rutgers tube with the F between Jay Street and B'way-Lafayette before switching back to the Eighth Ave. line, freeing up the additional track space between Hoyt and Canal for more A train service both to Lefferts and the Rockaways. The C would have no problem sharing trackage with the F train, and the only station that would lose service would be Spring Street at Sixth Ave., which would only have the E train stopping there."
Jay,
This sounds like a good idea; can it still be built? Although I would prefer a Rutgers Dekalb connection than a Rutgers Fulton Street connection. But I like your suggestions anyway.
N bwy
Connecting the Manhattan-bound Fulton local tracks with the F tracks coming from Bergen would be relatively easy, since both tracks are on the outer walls.
Hooking up the F tracks going to Bergen with the Fulton tracks coming from the Court Street station would require a little more doing, but wouldn't be impossible. Going by Peter Daugherty's track maps, a new ramp could be built on the station wall side the F tracks coming out of Jay Street (similar to the way they carved out one of the walls on the IND west of 36th St-Northern Blvd. to build the new local track as part of the 63rd St. connection) that would ramp up and over the F track and the G tracks coming from Bergen to Hoyt, and would then connect into the eastbound Fulton local track coming in from the Court St. station.
I don't know if the new track could clear the westbound local track between Hoyt and Court with a flying junction, but even if a grade-level crossover was necessary, since Court St. is only used for the Transit Museum nowadays, that really wouldn't be a major concern.
There are crossovers north of Jay Street station. Unless the issue is 8th Ave line capacity at Jay Street or Hoyt, Manhattan-bound trains should be able to switch.
I think the money should be spent on connecting the bridge tracks to the Rutgers tube. They cross–does anyone know the height difference and what this would take?
Looks like a few million for construction and a few billion for the EIS/Payoffs/Lawyers…etc, etc.
John
I could think of seversl projects they could spend the money on better. It's just that if you use the crossover north of Jay you defeat the whole purpose of sending the C through the Rutgers tube, since you would still have the A/C bottleneck between Jay and Hoyt. A seperate connection would allow the A to never have to share trackage with the C train, which would permit some service increase for Far Rock and Lefferts riders by eliminating the Canal-Hoyt bottleneck (though adding more A trains would be limited because of the D train between CPW and 145th).
Connecting the Fulton local tracks to the F at Jay is not something I would even put in the Top 10 things the MTA needs to spend money on right now. But it is something the IND builders should have done back in 1930, instead of seeing the Fulton local as a stand-alone service that would run between Court St. and Euclid until the Second System connection to Manhattan was built.
>>I think the money should be spent on connecting the bridge tracks to the Rutgers tube. They cross–does anyone know the height difference and what this would take?<<
I don't know about exactly where they cross, but let me put this in perspective for you.
York St. station is just 2 blocks north of the Manhattan Bridge. But, at that point, the bridge is very high off the ground. At that point, there are 3 story structures under the bridge that have plenty of clearance.
If you did want a DeKalb-Rutgers connection, it would have to be much longer than the 63rd connector project.
Thanks, I have never walked around that area. I know that the bridge approaches from DeKalb are long (and ascending all the time). I just wanted an idea of how much this would take.
John
>>>They don't even hold trains to make connections with the C! <<
I ride a N/B "D" through 59th St daily, at about 12:45PM and it's been my experience that we are always held for a "C" train at that station. If is not there waiting already.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh no, Gene Russianoff's latest pile of dog poop. Please treat it as such.
Gee, I don't know! He's starting to sound a lot smarter to me, lately.
Like his latest camera crazed grandstanding, berating the TA that ridership has increased 29% since 1996, but service has only increased 11%? Gotta love how he forgot to mention that the size of the car fleet at present physically prevents any further increases.
The Straphangers are not a legitimate ridership advocacy group. Their primary motive is to push their political ideals above responsible and responsive trainsit service.
"Their primary motive is to push their political ideals above responsible and responsive trainsit service."
And what are these "political ideals" as you call them? I have political ideals myself and take great offense of that statement.
N Bwy
I think the C line is a good line, a very dependable line. But the MTA likes to pick on the C line and when there is an oppertunity to shut down the C line they do it quickly.
The car shortage also affects the C line, if they had full 10 car sets and more cars in the system then you would see how great the C line really is. The C line plays express sometimes along CPW because you could be on an express A or D and when you get to 59 Street right behind you on the local track is that C train you passed at 110 Street.
I would be scared to be a C line motorman because one day the C line isn't running and you have to drive an A or E line train.
In someways I agree about the C. The "A" is my worst nightmare. Many times, I've waited for the A at 168, passing up a C. The A arrives about 2 minutes after the C, but the local seems to get to 59 before the express. I don't know if this is a commentary on the A being rotten or the C being good.
Piggo
-I have to disagree.The A line comes into a station more often than the C.
No it doesn't, I wait at Port Authority downtown every day after getting off an E for a train to Jay St, 90% of the time the C comes first. I don't bother waiting for an A because three stops skipped doesn't make a difference to me and chances are the A won't catch up.
Part of the routine service-delivery problem is that each tower in the subway system is controlled by only one Line Supertendent, even if multiple lines operate in the area. Since train dispatchers and tower operators are loyal to the line whose superintendent signs their time cards, that line usually gets decent service (often at the expense of other routes). The C Line Superintendent doesn't control ANY towers, so the C always suffers.
Poor C line, that superintendent should demand a section at least, at the new subway control center. Then he or she can get the service and control that the line needs. Besides at the Subway Control Center he or she gets more control then the people at the tower...I think.
The C runs at 10 minute intervals throughout the day (including rush hour). The rating given to the C line comes as no surprize to me.
>>>>>>>>I would be scared to be a C line motorman because one day the C line isn't running and you have to drive an A or E line train.
On the contrary, you should look forward to operating the C. If the C is shut down, then you go NOWHERE. In other words, money for nothing.
By the way, the C line is a high seniority line.
Really? On the No.5 Line when they only have a weekend shuttle most of the crews get sent to Woodlawn and at least do one trip and the Reg. No.4 crews get two trips instead of three.
Even when the No.3 or 6 do short trips the extras get sent to woodlawn.
I meant when there is a service disruption (i.e.12-9, etc.).
>>The C runs at 10 minute intervals throughout the day (including rush hour).<<
The C's headways aren't that good, true. But 10 mins? They are listed at 8, and the C certainly operates as frequently as the M or J trains.
On CPW and 8th av, the C is running with another local, and often times someone can take another train.
However, even at such bad headways, and with 8 car trains, the C line is almost always less crowded when heading northbound to manhattan at High than any A train. The only time I was on a really crowded C train South of Jay (while heading to Manhattan) was when one was taken out of service. The one behind it was pretty crowded, but no worse than an A train, and certainly not near the crowding of a Lex line train. So thus, the TA wants to make sure they get the most for their cars, and they can do this on the C line.
Rode the N to Canal from City Hall.
This has to be the most diversified line in terms of cars.
Had 5100 series in front pulling a 2800 series car.
Passed by R40-Slants, R32s, and R38s.
In addition, have actually had once a N with the electronic side signs like the R.
On another subject, The Manny B Canal stations looks great compared to what it used to be. Maintenance was doing some work there, in order to complete by 7/22/01.
Nothing beats the old R Astoria line for different car mixes. On one day in late 1986, I saw R16's, R27's, R30's, R32's, R38's R40 (slant and modified)and R42's!
"Nothing beats the old R Astoria line for different car mixes. On one day in late 1986, I saw R16's, R27's, R30's, R32's, R38's R40 (slant and modified)and R42's!"
All on one train?
N Broadway Line
ASTORIA!!!!
By 1986, they were pretty much back to running solid trains, thank God. OTOH, in 1969, you could very well see any combination of SMEE cars in a given consist.
HA! That would be a funny seen if I was to see something like that.
N Bwy
No, seperate trains. Only the R27/R30/R16's and the R42/R40M's ran mixed.
I rode the E into Manhattan because the E is closest to me as far as a subway Train. Anyways around 50th street things get alittle fishy. I was on 3365 following closely to a R46 E Train leaving. Came to a halt at 50th. Homeball gives Bottom yellow indication and then we go into 42nd. I get off the E because i need to catch an A to Jay street. Interesting enough, a R38 C comes onto the express track! Odd enuf i thought maybe the Motorman meant to put up the A sign. But funny enough it stopped on the 8 car mark! Then the side signs all said C. So i jump on and it went express all the way! More interesting sights was pulling into Canal and stopping in half way while the signal says red, and the homeball says red. Just then the E i got off of 3365, enters Canal. Funny enough the Operator doesn't even blow the horn! He just pulls in, stops. Funny enuf, he stops like he was going to open the doors, but he just doesn't! He pulls out, and for some reason stops half way out the station. 3354 is sticking out of Canal. I thought to myself, maybe he went in to Emergency.... But then again, i didn't hear it! Anyways he stays there as we pull in, make our stop and be on our way. Also, not to mention i saw a R44 skipping Spring street, on the local platform!!!
Then on top of it, I saw a E at Schermerhorn street!!! But my source told me that E's go to Pitkin yard to relay during the day!
But do E Motorman have to go to Rockaway park yard for south jobs?
Does this explain why, at one point yesterday, 8th Avenue C trains were running on the 6th Avenue tracks (being as I’d boarded a C at the 47th-50th Street - Rockefeller Center station)?
A short while behind that C, my F was routed around a BIE F and sent through 63rd.
The C was the whole reason I got off my R-32 Q at 34st, passing up one rare opportunity in search of another...
I ride the E and F. Ever since i was 8. I pretty much grew up with them. how did they do? Especially the F. I really like the F
How did the E and F do on the Straphangers Report? I'd like to know too.
Let me ask you this? How would you rate the E, and F trains?
Average. E may be a little better, but not too much better
A look at the charts shows they did even compared to each other but only three lines did worse. Not too good. The R is at its usual. The R46s may not be that good after looking at the G breakdown rpt.
>>The R46s may not be that good after looking at the G breakdown rpt.<<
I find it amusing how the F has a breakdown rate of every 122,279 mi, but the R has one of every 68,170 mi. What's going on here?!?
>>How did the E and F do on the Straphangers Report? I'd like to know too.<<
The E and F trains will never do well in that report. Why? well, look at the system:
Ratings are:
Cleanliness, announcement clarity, frequency of trains, chance of getting a seat, MDBF and how often trains bunch together.
Cleanliness:
This is something that the E and F can control, and they do ok, E=88% F=80% (system average=85%)
Frequency:
The E and F have good headways, at 5 and 4 minutes respectively. only the #6 and #7 are scheduled to come more frequent than the F, at 3 mins, and the only other trains than come just as often are the 1/9, 4 and L trains.
Announcements:
another area that the lines can control. Both scored above the system average of 48%. The F had a 50% rating. The E had the best rating of all, 61%
MDBF:
the system average is 110,586 mi. The E was slightly below that, with 109,061 mi. The F was above it with 122,279 mi.
Getting a seat:
This is where the E and F will always suffer. Perhaps when the V train sets up shop this will change, but right now, the only train worse than the E in this category are the L and N trains. The F had a better rating, but only right at the system average.
Bunching of trains:
The E and F always suffer here. The only train worse than the F was the 1/9 locals. The E has a much better rating, but it is still below the system average.
In conclusion, On the straphanger ratings (how much is your ride worth?) the E an F both got an 80cents rating. The 2 and 5 have the worst ratings, with 70cents, and there are 4 trains with ratings of 80cents, the others are the A and R. So, the E and F rate anywhere from 3rd to 6th worst.
Not so good.
A lot of the QB Express probs are beyond the TA's control. This is one of the most overcrowded lines in the system. They run as many trains as they can, as well they should, but then whenever there is a problem it is often increased by the exhaustion of the line's capacity.
Even with the 30 TPH, it's near impossible to get a seat between Rockefeller Center (on the F--I don't know where it gets crowded on the E) and Union Tpke or beyond (it's often packed to the gills between Rockefeller Cntr and Roosevelt Ave) In fact, I rarely get a seat (inbound) when I get on at Van Wyck Blvd on Monday and Tuesday (alt side parking days at 179th, but not at Van Wyck) and I don't always get one when I get on at 179th Wed-Fri.
:-) Andrew
They're running busses in leiu of subway service late nights on the 1/9 south of Chambers for several months. Does anyone know what's going on? Thanks
They are doing a chip-out. (Replacing the track bed)
"They are doing a chip-out. (Replacing the track bed)"
I thought there was work near south ferry several months ago?
N Bwy Line
OUCH! That hurts! Kind of like subway Root Canal. Weren't they doing this on the "L" near Wilson not too long ago?
wayne
You remember well, Wayne!
To the others: A chip out is when they take up the track, ties, etc. and remove the entire concrete. They then set new ties and then pour new concrete.
The source: Latest ERA Bulletin
What is the advantage of using ties instead of clipping the rails directly to the concrete, as is done in some parts of the system?
I do not know that answer. NYCT is converting all tie attachment to the rails from spikes through a metal plate attached to the ties to a "push rod" which goes through a "slot" in the plate which is attached to the ties. To change a rail they simply hammer put the rod and hammer it back in when the new rail is in place.
I am sure someone else will give the correct names.
Talking about the 1/9, I read in the service advisories that on Tuesday mornings 12:01 AM to 5 AM, the 2 is going to South Ferry (skipping its regular route) and then to Wall Street and the #4 line to Brooklyn.
Looks like rare mileage. How does the 2 get to the 4?
(I remember from elementary school that 2 goes into 4, but I don't think this is what the teacher meant.)
Michael
It arrives at Chambers on the local track, runs non-stop to Wall St on the 4 line via South Ferry Loop (crosses from outer to inner loop after the station). TO dumps at Wall St and a new crew takes it south into Brooklyn.
My guess is that they can use the crossovers after 42nd or 33rd, or right before Chambers.
Who ever wrote about the #2 going into brooklyn from south ferry should be fired immediately!!! By the way, the next stop from South ferry is Rector street. It runs in a loop. The only way you can get the 2 into the #4 is after borohall.
N Bwy
"Talking about the 1/9, I read in the service advisories that on Tuesday mornings 12:01 AM to 5 AM, the 2 is going to South Ferry (skipping its regular route) and then to Wall Street and the #4 line to Brooklyn."
IMPOSSIBLE!!! The #1 is totally seperate from the #4, so you must have the wrong information. Maybe the #2 is going to back track to chambers than to it's regular route.
N Bwy
Don't be so assertive when you're not sure of the facts.
Check the track maps.
I was out riding one fine Sunday evening when the Bronx-bound 2 was running into and through Manhattan via the 4. The 3 wasn't running at all south of 42nd. So what provided northbound West Side service? The southbound 5, instead of looping through the inner South Ferry loop and running back up the East Side, switched to the outer loop and ran, nonstop, up the 1/9 trackage to Chambers.
This GO (which is more common but which I've never experienced in person) is similar.
Nope, the reroute is a regular deal for the 2 -- down the 1/9 tracks from Chambers to South Ferry and then switch over to the inner loop just after SF to go to the uptown 4/5 tracks at Bowling Green. From there, the train goes north past the swtich between BG and Wall, changes direction and heads south again, towards Brooklyn on the 4/5 tracks.
Lexington Ave. trains using the inner loop at South Ferry have the option of switching to the outer loop so at least half the cars can platform at the station, and then switch back to the inner loop for the return trip to BG. However, that option hasn't been a revenue service move in about 20 years, since they stopped running No. 6 nighttime service to South Ferry; it's only used for GOs to get the Seventh Ave. express to Brookyln via the Lexington Ave. tracks, and vice versa, when needed.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... This is new to me....
N bwy
Hi; In regard to this job, which depot(s) are these buses from?
Okay maybe someone posted this before, I just noticed the standard issue TA Duck Type on the 50th Street punches (6th Ave). They've covered up the 57th St. layup punch (behind the wall).
Anyone know why?
I assume not a permanent change because of the tape and not removing the button.
On lucky Friday, July 13th at 7:30pm, WCVB-TV (Channel 5 in Boston)'s "Chronicle" news magazine will do a half-hour story on MBTA Commuter Train #306, which plies the rails from Lowell to Boston each weekday morning.
They are a temporary family, thrown together by geography and occupation. Jay Marsden is the conductor. And the varied folks who board early morning Lowell-to-Boston commuter train are his community. Tonight, Chronicle rides along to see how a group of strangers have become friends and weathered triumph and tragedy together.
The program is really about Jay. He's a third-generation, 30+ year AMTRAK conductor, who started out on the freights. He's been on the same "job" for 12 years. He knows every commuter by name. When someone forgets his/her monthly pass, he/she must sing "I've Been Working on the Railroad" to get out of paying.
When Chronicle started work on the program, they asked Jay to nominate three of his regular commuters to "follow" to work, so see where they go after they get off the train in Boston. Jay suggested me, knowing of my love of trains (and weather!). So they came to my office at MIT last month, and filmed a brief interview. My guess is they'll use a lot more of the subway and weather stuff than what I do during the day at MIT, including my computer desktop image, which is Seashore's R4/R7A "A Train." I mentioned that I was one of the contributors to www.nycsubway.org, but I don't know if that will make it on-air.
Cool beans! You'll have to keep us posted (literally) tomorrow....
Good for you Todd ! I like Jay's way of embarrassing the customer a little to encourage them to remember that ticket, yet still giving them a free ride. That's service with a B-I-G smile :-) I'll bet the customers' friends make him/her stand up and sing while they clap.
BTW, how's your singing voice ?
Mr t
"Regulars" on Jay's train don't even have to show their pass -- just a quick how-d-doo with Jay. So if you forget it, no singing! On the other hand, if you forget it, it'll cost you $1 for a subway token, and a full fare for the ride home (unless you're on Jay's return trip out of North Station at 4:40 PM!).
Todd,
Nice job on Chronicle. You "showed" great. Thanks for the museum (Seashore) plug and kudos to your "union" response to the operating the train question.
Dick
Thanks, BTP.
It was also neat that the Seashore PSA (public service announcement, or unpaid commercial) played during the showing of Chronicle! Neat free publicity, twice!!
I mentioned that I was one of the contributors to www.nycsubway.org, but I don't know if that will make it on-air.
I don't think so.
That statement didn't make it on-air, but they showed my work computer's desktop wallpaper, the photo of Seashore's A-TRAIN that is part of this site. Also my postcard of R-142s running in NYC.
it came for shop qulification. i dont really know about this. it think its to see if corona yard can maintain the r62a's and if they have the right parts it needs. its somthing like that
and by the way, what will be the status of the r62a's? will the TA order new ones, or will they change all the windows like the ones with scrathitti on them? are they going to come new or like new or are they going to come all messed up like the way they had them in the 3 or 6
The TA isn't going to order new R62's. That contract ended like 15 years ago. They may take steps to upgrade the cars, like new windows and whatnot. Actually, new windows on both the R62/62A and R68/68A families would be a very good idea.
:-) Andrew
No. They'd get scratched up all over again.
Lexan :)
Shawn.
-Finally the 7 is getting a fleetmakeover
I think you're making things up. You're not really sure are you? They can check inventory through other means. Maintainers can be bought elsewhere to be trained for them.
wont it be nice to paint the r62a's red??? in memory of the redbirds. it would be nice. we are the only line that has been having redbirds for the past 38 years. all redbirds
They weren't always red.
They started out in a blue/white color scheme for the World's Fair.
Then came the "anti-graffiti" all white color scheme.
Then came the red.
I say leave the R62's as they are. They will be easier to clean and
they won't have worry about painting.
Let the Redbirds rest(rust?) in peace.
Forgot one -- the Flushing cars got the MTA corporate blue-and-white colors in 1979 when air conditoning was installed. That came in between the original World's Fair paint job and the all-white anti-graffiti effort.
Not all of the WF R-36s got the silver and blue treatment. Some went directly from teal and white to all-white.
HELL NO !!!!!!!
Either leave the R62/62A's in their stainless steel skin or paint them in the WORLD'S FAIR SCHEME, like #9306 if you want to be true to the memory of the Redbirds.
Remember the Flushing line didn't not orginally get Redbirds. If you want to remeber them paint an R142 red..Leave the #7's alone.
When the 7 got the cars starting in late 1963, I thought it was great that I could see such distinctive looking cars from my mom's apartment window. When they were painted like all the other IRT cars, because of the graffiti scourge, they lost the uniqueness. I would rather have the 62/62A's left alone then to be desecrated with the horrible red paint job. At least the World's Fair scheme was pleasant and diffent looking at the time.
ok so we cant paint them regular world fair scheme. also why dont they save at least 2 sets and put them in flushing medow park. they can build tracks so people can have a tour of what used to be the worlds fair, shea stadium and have a ride on the redbirds. this all was made in 1964
The R62A's are one car class where I wouldn't chnage a thing. I say leave them silver.
:-) Andrew
The purpose of having a stainless steel fleet is the money saving by not painting them.
Besides the TA doesn't care about tributes anyway.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does-anyone-know-why-the-Manhattan-bound-trains-on-the-West-End-line-(B-and-M-trains)were-running-express-this-morning-from-about-6:20AM-to-6:50AM?
To address your spacebar problem, you could copy a space and press ctrl + v to paste it wherever you need a space...
To answer the question: There was a sick customer at Grand Street. I got stuck on an R train that was held for a Q crossing in front. I guess they ran bridge via tunnel or maybe via tjhe other side because I heard control talking about Broadway Express
Actually, I'm talking about the B and M lines from Bay Parkway to 9th Avenue.
What are the chances that, in a similar emergency situation, revenue trains will be rerouted via the south side bridge tracks before they officially (re)open to the public? (It happened on 63rd in January or December.)
It was December the first time, and after they did it they didn't try again until everyone was familiarized.
If they did use the south side, I'll bet the first question they asked the train operators of those trains was "are you familiarized, and if not do you think you have the capacity to figure it out?"
Why do T/O's have to be explicitly familiarized with every inch of track?
actually, random B trains have been going express along the West End for the past 2 weeks, causing me to be late for my job.
There were never any signs up about it, does anyone know the cause?
I've missed these elusive (and never ever packed) B trains so much in fact that I've started considering just hopping the M to 9th avenue to pick up the B.....of course if I ever tried that, that would be the day they stop doing it.. :)
-Alan Scott
I was on a B in the morning before. It ran express from Bay Parkway to 9 Avenue because there was an M Train on the local tracks at Bay Parkway. I'm guessing that shouldn't be a normal problems if the trains are on time.
Well while riding the subway around 2:30pm, I took an N from Lexington to Cortlandt. We got delayed due to some door problems with the train so before 34th we switched to the express track, then back to the local before Canal. Yeah itb would've been cool if they sent us over the bridge. Also at City hall I thought I saw a train with orange signs (couldn't get the letter) heading uptown. It looked like an R68 so it must've been a B or D.
Also, ALT+0160 is a nonbreaking space
...and ALT+32 (on the numeric pad) is a regular space.
On Monday afternoon,they ran an emergency general order to due a broken rail south of 9th ave on D2 track.This occured during the p.m. rush.They probably were working there overnight since there is a slow speed order entering 9th ave.If they were there during those hours,the work probably ran late resulting in the service diversion Tuesday morning.
D2 tk is out of service tonight as well...hopefully, they'll finish up.
Thank you.
We are planning to perform a short Broadway musical-style dance on a subway
train. There will be 5-7 of us. We are interested in any information you'd
like to share with us, particularly any train lines or stops you'd like to
suggest (our performance lasts about 2 1/2 minutes) and any info about the
width or layout of train cars you have. We are most interested in
performing on the wider cars (so not the 1/2/3/9 or 4/5/6) and we need to be
able to exit through the doors at either end of the car. We are considering
the A/C, N/R, L, and 7 lines. Comments? Suggestions? Do you know of some
way we can find out how long the distance is between certain stops, apart
from riding the trains and timing it? We would also very much appreciate it
if you have any safety or practical tips to offer. Are there precautions we
should take that we may not be aware of? What kind of support (or
opposition) can we expect from transit police?
The A between 59 and 125 is about a 7 minute express run. They have about an even breakdown of 75 foot cars (no walking from car to car) and 60 footers (you can walk between cars and of course they are all "wide" B division cars. The train is not usually packed so you should have some room to work. And going north, you should get time to do your thing between 125 and 145, as there are so many speed controls on that strech the train takes about as much time to go the 20 blocks as it does to go the 60 blocks from 59.
Good Luck
IF you're good and don't bother anyone, the transit police won't mind.
The longest stretches I can think of (that have trains where you can exit through the end) are:
A - 125st to 59st Columbus Circle (and vice versa) - 8 minutes.
A - Broadway East NY to Euclid Ave - more than 3 minutes.
A - Howard Beach to Broad Channel - 8 minutes.
E - Queens Plaza to Roosevelt Ave - 6 minutes.
E - Roosevelt Ave to 71 / Continental - 7 minutes.
Q - 34st to W4st - About 4 minutes.
Q - Grand St (Canal St) to DeKalb - 6 minutes.
Q - Newkirk to Kings Highway - More than 3 minutes.
N - Pacific to 36st - 5 minutes.
I don't reccommend you try anything within a river tube, while most are around 5 minutes, trains tend to bounce about a bit more and can be disruptive to a dance routine. Plus the fact that train operators tend to brake erratically in those areas, also disruptive.
The older A train cars, the R-38s, have only 6 stanchions (vertical poles), which leaves you a bit more contiguous floor space. The R-32s on the E and N have 9 stanchions and therefore less contiguous floor space. I don't know about the R-40s on the Q.
If you have subway schedules from before 1998, they show the approximate travel times between any given stations.
I'm interested in knowing your motivation for doing this.
He forgot to mention that some gails with tin cups will be part of the group.
I'm coming to NY tomorrow for the first NY Argentine Tango Festival. On Thursday, the class is going to dance tango on the Staten Island Ferry. You might find the ferry safer.
Michael
Okay, first thing's first: You must not do this anywhere near rush hour. If people are standing up in the train, it's too crowded. If you want people to like this they mustn't be jostled.
Aside from that, don't be too loud and I'm sure it'll be great. I'd like to see it, too. Please post your final plans.
Dan
Just wanna throw out a kudos to a '7' train T/O. I ain't gonna give up which a day or time, since I don't wanna invade anyone's privacy or get anyone in trouble, but suffice it to say there's a real decent T/O who picked one of the jobs on the Queensbound '7' outta TSQ.
As always, I entered the head car to do some of my usual railfanning. Unfortunately, the a/c was out in the car (sorry, don't recall the #). Normally, this would be cause for consternation, but in this case, the climate resulted in the T/O operating with the door wide open. This left me just enough front window for viewing. Usually, in cases like this (which most often happen on MN or LIRR MUs, and only rarely on the subway), I don't speak to the motorman/engineer. I'm always afraid they might be of the ilk who dislike rail buffs, and who will tell me off or make me move. I don't know why, but I decided to chance it. This whim resulted in some pleasant conversation from TSQ to QBP. Mind you, we weren't having a constant, animated gab-fest, but we had a few short exchanges along the way. As we pulled out of 5th Avenue, I saw my chance...
"Too many timers," I said. "It's like, get on with it already. Can't stand 'em."
This surprised him, I think, as he agreed. "Are you a Train Operator, Sir?" I knew he likely thought not, considering my age and appearance, but I think he was wondering how I knew what timers were.
"No," I chuckled, "I just read a lot. It has been a dream of mine, though."
I let him do his job for a while. I brought up the annoying 15mph red-over-lunar aspect pulling into QBP, asked him how long he'd been on the job, etc. "I thought about it, but I alwasys figured by the time I got enough seniority in the union to pick the jobs I wanted, I'd be ready to retire," said I.
Soon, we were at that infernal curved approach to QBP, where we encountered many more reds than usual. There must have been something occupying the block ahead. We inched our way into the station, after which I threw out a "Take it easy, buddy," and got off.
It was great to see a T/O who both liked his job and didn't mind jabbering a bit with one strange passenger too. I'm hope I'm on this guy's train again.
Keystone Pete
There are a few train operators that talk, most of them like to stay cooped up but there are a few who are cool and you can talk to them and let you see up close. I remember once on a D train going to Coney Island I met this nice train operator (it was a woman) and I was trying to look through the film, she notcied and opened the door, she let smaller kids in too. So everyone was happy, the parents were happy. I found out that she was a subway buff and she just became a subway driver which was her dream. So we talked about it all the way to Coney Island. It was cool. If I became a train operator, I'm going to be the easy to talk to train operator that will let little and older subway buffs or train riders the chance to look out the front window. Cause in the future they will be gone time to give them the precious view still.
Can a T/O get written up for having unauthorized people in the cab? I keep thinking of that line in Pelham 1-2-3: "Then who are you? No one's authorized to be in that cab except the lousy motorman."
Even if I'd wanted to, I don't think I would have fit in the cab of the R-33/36 (not sure which -- I can't ever tell them apart). I did watch the T/O at the controls, though, since the door was all the way open. Had I been standing in the same spot on an R-62 with a full-width cab, I would have been inside it.
About a year ago when the R-142A's were being tested.I was over at Pelham Bay Park.The T/O was programming the train.I was standing right by the door, The T/O invited me in right in the cab!!!! we chatted he showed me how the computer worked.He was a nice guy after he finshed programming the train he told me I had to leave, but I already saw what I wanted to see.My dad was a tower operator years ago, and he knew a lot of T/O's so I would ride with them and hang out with them sometimes my dad would be there too.
When I was about 9 (13 now), I was riding up on the 1 train, when it wasn't full cabs. The T/O's door was open and he saw that I was a kid buff...So he asked me if i wanted to "drive" the train, and oh boy I burst into excitement. I took the master controller and he took the brakes, and it was really easy...He said that if I see him again he'd let me do both...Never seen him since, obviously one of the passengers was a rat ba$tard...Whatever
Heh. Back when I was a kid, there were two motormen on the A train on Saturdays that did that. Glad to hear there are still a few heretics on the railroad somewhere. :)
Let me guess: they let you take the controller. And this was on the R-10s, too, right?
There was one guy back in the late 50's who was about to retire who did a 10am run out of 207th ... I used to go to Canal every Saturday to buy electronics parts on Canal St when it was "radio row" full of surplus gear and oddities, so it was a religious pilgrimage in my childhood. I'd always do the fan window anyway and got to know this guy over time. First it was "pull my finger" and after several months of him showing me how to do it, he'd let me sit on the bench and operate while he stood next to me for a couple of stations. REAL cool experience. And yep, R10's ...
On the Subtalk DC fieldtrip a few months ago, there was a T/O that let WMATAGMOAGH and his little brother sit at the controls for us to take pictures of them (The pictures are up on the DC page of here).
What a nice guy.
The other day, on the LIRR leaving Far Rockaway, I had the opportunity to have a short conversation with the MU operator. He saw my scanner, inquired a bit about it, place of residence, etc.
The only thing I remember asking about was the switch leaving Far Rock. It was set against us and he didn't seem to be slowing down to kick a conductor off to move it. So I asked "don't you have to set the switch?" He almost laughed and said "No, the train moves it, and it clicks back after we cross. You can only trail through it, though." I heard the click when the forward truck crossed, so I knew it was a spring turnout and of course didn't bother to ask any more stupid questions. Couldn't think of any, anyway.
I knew a guy once who lived in Woodhaven and took the same subway train to work every day. The motorman was always the same one, and after a while he recognized my friend and let him sit in the cab. At least that's what he told me. I started having my doubts as to the validity of his claims when he said he would occasionally get a train of BMT standards on the Jamaica line - and this was the late 70s! Hel-LO! They were probably R-7/9s; he just said "old cars with no signs".
Does anyone know why the A train stop at Dyckman is also marked on the station walls "200th Street". I guess Dyckman would be about where a 200th Street would be located. But aside from the subway signage, I have never heard of Dyckman street referred to as 200th Street.
Piggo
That is where 200th St would be (if there was one currently)according to a street map.
There may have been one at the time that the line was planned and Dyckman St may have just been extended there at the time. Just a guess.
There never was a 200th Street. It seems to me that the city wanted to rename Dyckman the same way it renamed Hawthorne (204th) and Emerson (207th).
Don't you think that the A should be red (instead of blue) and end at 204th? I don't see how A relates in any way to the transcendental movement.
How much you wanna bet that 200th (which *is* Dyckman) was chosen because it required only 3 tiles and not 7?
No they didn't do that either; the tablets read 200TH-DYCKMAN ST
and the little captions simply read "200". I'll bet they didn't have any lettered tile ready at the time these stations were tiled. That's part of the original IND 8th Avenue. There isn't a tile band either; if there was one, it would have been maroon like 168th Street. None of the first group of ORIGINAL IND stations on 8th Avenue had any caption (black w/white letter) tiles with letters in them; only numbers: 14, 23, 34, 42, 50, 59........168, 175, 181, 191, 200, 207.
There is no 200th Street in the Bronx either; it's Bedford Park Boulevard there.
wayne
You're right, no sign of a 200th St west of Bronx park and the inwood section is notorious for all sorts of weird little nondescript streets and very few numbers.
Since all the other stops on the Washington Heights line have numeric street designations, they probably put the numbers at Dyckman just so passengers could use the street number "scale" to gauge their location without interruption.
On the Jerome Ave. line, there used to be small street numbers affixed to the lampposts on the ends of almost all the station platforms, even on those stations whose official names were not numeric. Specifically:
StationPosted street number
Mt. Eden Ave.173
Burnside Ave.180
Fordham Rd.189
Kingsbridge Rd.194
Bedford Pk. Blvd. 200
So both Dyckman St. and Bedford Pk. Blvd. have been posted as "200th St." I am not certain, but I think that "200 Street" may have been posted on the large station signs at Bedford Pk. as well as on the little lamppost signs. Do the large red mosaics at Dyckman St. read "200th Street" as well, or is it only the small black numbers high on the walls that read "200"?
Reminds me how until recently, all the signs at the Bay PArkway stop on the F in Brooklyn read "Bay Parkway - 22 Avenue"
-Alan Scott
Actually, it was the other way around: "22 Avenue-Bay Parkway."
The last time I passed that, some signs with this reading were on the parts of the platform w/o the canopy.
There. Does that answer your question?
(For those wondering: Yes, I have many more photos. Yes, they'll be up on the web. No, I have no idea when. This is just a sneak preview.)
Hmmmmmm - One of life's mysteries to ponder. Dyckman Street, 200th St., yup - it ranks right up there with how the pyramids were built. Don't ask me about Dycknman Street. I still can't understand how the West Side Highway is on the east side of the Hudson River - Brrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Trying to figure out some of NYC's oddities would break my brain.
Examples:
The corner of West 4th Street and West 11th Street.
Going east, you have 5th Avenue then Madison, Park, Lexington then 3rd Avenue. Not only is there no 4th Avenue on the Upper East Side, but there are THREE avenues between 5th and 3rd.
I'm sure that there are many others, but my brain is starting to hurt.
Oh, that second one's easy.
Park is 4th. (Look at Union Square, where 4th Avenue turns into Park Avenue South. Then at 32nd Street, that becomes plain Park Avenue.)
Lexington and Madison were inserted later on.
That also accounts for the somewhat shorter distances than typical between avenues on the East Side west of 3rd.
2nd and 3rd seem almost as close together as the avenues between 3rd and 5th. Certainly not as far apart as 5th and 6th.
The block between Fifth and Sixth is the longest of any of the between avenue blocks. The space between Third and Fourth and Fourth and Fifth was pretty wide until around the time of the Civil War, when Lexington and Madison Avenues were created. As for First and Second Aves., First may have been moved slightly further west in order to be able to run it in a straight line from Houston to 126th Street without the East River intruding onto the route near 34th or 96th streets.
Well, the West Side Highway IS on the West Side of Manhattan. :-)
Duhhhh. Now why didn't I figure that one out? It's good that you were here to clarify that for me.
>>I still can't understand how the West Side Highway is on the east side of the Hudson River - Brrrrrrrrrrrrr. <<
Pardon me but DUHHH!!! It is on the West side of Manhattan, hence the name West Side Highway.
Dry humor is lost on some people (and actually, California 1 should really be the West Side Highway)
On the R32/38 rollsigns, Dyckman is placed between 205th St, Bronx and 179 St, Jamaica. Since this part of the rollsign increases numerically, Dyckman St. could, at one time or another, have been proposed as 200th Street, but never realized.
Wow the first draft of the 2001 Second Avenue Plan is complete. 6 years of work finnally together. This is cool, now to get the information to complete the Second Draft. Subway Buffs to read and respond to the Plan. So I can take the data and create the Second Draft of the Plan.
WOW! Almost Ready to Fight for the line@
Where do we get to see this plan? URL?
It'll never be built. They made plans in the '20s too.
R-142s 6501-05 and 6606-10 are operating in service as of this afternoon.
Also, the original R-142A protoype, 7211-20, are together once again making simulated stops, I guess it's time for them to go home to Pelham.
A Redbird note worth mentioning, it would appear that the R-33s displaced from 2 service by the 142s, are gradually being pushed over to the 5, putting the 26/28/29s into retirement.
-Stef
I have to correct myself. 6601-6610 are together, not 6501-05, 6606-10 as I previously mentioned.
-Stef
6526-30 are on the property tonight.....
-Stef
You beat me to it.
HA!
I always have one eye to the window, pal.
-Stef
Stef, we need to set up a webcam at your apartment :)
-dave
Call it STEF TOWER
I am now rolling on the floor laughing my ass off.
Stef Master Tower as it shall be called, will be replete with a communications system, web cam, push button interlocking, and replete with model board of the 2/5 Lines from Mott Av to 241 St, Dyre Av and East 180th St Yard also included.
Well, Stef Master Tower will control the mini-Redbirds rolling in my living room:)
-Stef
Another R-142 Sighting to report, Cars 6476-80 and 6611-15 (declared to be on the property as of now) are in test simulation mode, so here's another set getting ready to enter service.
Does anyone have numbers on how many Redbirds are still roaming the rails in passenger service as of this point?
-Stef
That makes 52 trainsets delivered, 56 to go...
Is that the whole order, or just the primary? Also, how many of the 52 are in service regularly right now? Estimate?
I'm serious Stef... if you have that good a view we should put it to good use... you got cable modem or DSL at your apartment ? :)
DSL. Let's just say anything is possible and who knows, maybe I'll do it, and share my adventures from the railfan (apartment) window.
Is that hard to do?
-Stef
Nope! Most cams come with their own software, and Web Cam 2000 is perfect for image capturing, all you gotta do is refresh for a new pic!
I use it and it's quite good!
Great Idea! I was actually thinking about one of those live feeds, but a web cam is good. Will investigate....
-Stef
If you're serious about setting up a webcam. I would suggest the Axis 2100 network camera. They are cameras with an embedded computer that runs Linux. There's almost nothing to them although they can be a bit tricky to setup at first. They only require a regular RJ45 Ethernet connection and power. They do not require a computer or any software to operate. They have a built in web server of their own. If you do not have a static IP address (typical for ADSL connections) you could have the network camera upload pictures via FTP to another web server. These cameras are pricy at around $475 but I own one and I believe they are well worth it. I would be willing to lend a hand techincally to get the camera up and running. Of course this is not worth it if unless your DSL modem/router has RJ45 Ethernet connections, as some people are using with their ADSL service.
Sorry if I made this too technical at all :)
Shawn.
Thanks.....
-Stef
That sounds like a nifty little item. Too bad I have nothing to point it at!
I saw 7211-7220 at Whitlock waiting for a train of 'birds.
There have been posts here about strange Redbirds. One has old-fashioned straps. One has R-62-style handholds. I'd like to see them before it's too late.
Are there any others?
Are they still running? Which lines? (IIRC, the 6 and the 5, respectively.) Which is likely to be pulled from service first?
Do they always run in the same ten-car consists? What are the lead cars?
Do they run middays? Weekends? Evenings?
What's the best place to wait for them? I'm thinking Grand Central, where I can keep a close eye on one platform and can still see the other platform when nothing's in the way. The air coolers are a nice plus.
8660 is the R62A car...it's running on the 6 last time I heard...
I had that train today 8660 is a head car. The train gave me and JR bad luck.
I was on that car from Whitlock to 51st. I was writing signal numbers for another BVE route idea. (6) local and express to Brooklyn Bridge.
I let a lot of non/Redbird trains pass Whitlock before getting on 8660. The red is rare on the 6.
Dont forget car # number 7773 on the Dyre Avenue line with the R-21 front window
AND #7821 and #7875 which also have the dropdown R21/R22 storm door windows.
wayne
Forget about the 7875. Shes in Concourse awaiting disposal.
There is #9328, an R33 single that has unusual fan grilles; I think these are Trane fans and may have come out of an R15
wayne
Ah, yes, that's the one we rode on last fall, IIRC.
8603 and some other R-29 that ends with a 3 (8693? 8703?) have R-21 and R-17 straps. Forgot which goes with what. Not more than one or two per car, though...
There's also 9336, the R-33 WF with ML-style lighting.
R36 #9574 has that, too, in addition to LCD LOCAL/EXP signs, which don't seem to work anymore. When passing 3rd rail gaps, 9575 goes dark and 9574 doesn't.
Car 9576 and 9577, IIRC stilll have blue on the windows
I saw a few functioning Local/Exp signs on Redbirds last fall, but that feature has become meaningless with the field shunt modification. In the good old days, the final field shunt step was enabled in the express mode and disabled in the local mode. All trains today operate in local mode.
Could you elaberate for those of us with little or no techinical knowledge of how the trains operate???? What is a field shunt and how is it different when it could run in express mode??
Thanks
Thanks, everyone.
I spent much of today searching for these oddities. I started on the 7, where I quickly spotted 9574 (LCD local/express signs -- got a picture). I spent the next hour waiting at Junction for 9328 -- since the singles are always third from the Flushing end, watching wasn't much of a challenge. When 9574 went by in the same direction I had first ridden it, I figured 9328 must have been out of service at the time, so I rode out on an express to Willets Point just for fun, attempted to use the men's room inside fare control (a large sign declares the restrooms open at all times, but both were out of service), and returned to Grand Central. By this point I really needed to go, so I looked around for a men's room in fare control (I had never noticed one before, but I don't think I ever needed one before) and eventually resorted to asking an S/A to readmit me after running upstairs to GCT proper.
I decided to wait at the south end of the NB platform. Pretty soon I saw 8660 (R-62-style handrails) on the SB local track, but since it was the last car, I had already missed it. I ran over and caught a 5, which just happened to feature 7773 (drop-down storm door windows). (One of the other cars -- I didn't catch the number -- had the rollsign frames painted beige, kind of like on the R-40. Tacky.) We passed the target 6 at Spring, so, after taking a picture or two at Brooklyn Bridge, I boarded the last car and went for a ride through the loop, giving me the opportunity to take many pictures (of the car and of City Hall station itself, although I doubt the pictures of the station will come out since I had the flash turned off) without interference from anyone but the homeless guy in the corner who slept through the whole thing. I'm glad the other Redbirds were left alone. The handrails don't really look like the R-62 ones at all. They're pretty shoddy in general and I think the overhead rail is even higher than on the R-62 -- the straps are definitely better for people my height. I then returned to Grand Central on a 4 (R-62) and spent the next hour in vain, waiting for 8603 (old-fashioned straps). Either it was out of service (although it was rush hour by this point so most of the trains were running) or I missed it due to an express blocking my view of the SB trains. I gave up when 8660 came though again, this time at the front of a SB local (for obvious reasons). Next time I think I'll bring a folding chair.
Oh, I should also mention that one of the R-142's on the 6 has a burned-out bulb on the electronic display on the side. The display still functions, only it's dark and hard to read.
Also, there was one train that had a circle-6 in the front and a diamond-6 in the back. I didn't catch the destination. I'm surprised it's possible to display different routes in the front and the back -- or did the train change its destination while it was in the station?
Also, there was one train that had a circle-6 in the front and a diamond-6 in the back.
For the 6, that kind of makes sense - diamond 6 to Pelham Bay Park, circle 6 to Brooklyn Bridge - at least one layover w/o having to change destination signs ....
--Mark
Should have been clearer: this was a train of R-142A's. All the signs are changed at the push of a button.
During rush hour trains on the Pelham Local line (6), they only change the back or the front of the train with the characteristic diamond-6, which indicates a rush hour (exp) train. Also, more R62A type cars are found on the 6 during rush hours.
;-)
Railfan Pete.
There is a redbird out there with an LCD local/express sign? Are you referring to what are the lights on the front of the redbirds that are lighted depending on if the train is local or express? I would really like to see that picture.
Yes, that's what I'm referring to.
The signs don't seem to work.
The film is still in the camera. Eventually I'll have the picture up on the web somewhere.
There have always been rumors of phantom stations, built but never opened, some of which have been discussed here. Most of them are fanciful, such as stations further out from 179 on Hillside. These rumors have, of course, been enouraged by the IND system's penchant for elaborate stubs and provisions for future lines.
One rumored station that seemed more likely than most was one on Pitkin below 76th Street. We know that yard leads from Pitkin yard go out in that direction, but dead end. Why would they build such a station, and never use it? Because they decide to take the economical route, and ramp up to the Liberty Avenue Dual Contract el instead.
Still, this seemed just a rumor. Now Bernard Linder in the current NY Div Bulletin says that such a station was not only planned but still exists! He describes discussions with Steve Korkowski who even produced a track map (published in the Bulletin) by Dave Rogoff. Fopr those of you who didn't know him, Dave Rogoff was the Sprague Librarian at the ERA many years ago and, IMO, the most thorough and tireless transit researcher NYC has ever seen.
S.K. says that he has spoken with two people (not named) who actually visited the station! He also says the station is on the Euclid Ave. model boards, but not the Pitkin Yard ones. The tracks to the station are now blocked off by bulkheads from both the yard and mainline.
This station is not mentioned by Brennan. If true, this is a major find. Excursion, anyone?
>>>>He also says the station is on the Euclid Ave. model boards
I have seen the model board at Euclid Avenue many times, and I've never seen this "phantom station" on the board. I'm not going to refute the possibility of the station existing as anything is possible.
It's there. If you're not looking for it you can miss it. The next time you go it is all the way on the right. It has the two (closed) yard leads from Pitkin connecting to the four track system with the station just beyond. The model board also has an arrow pointing right and says "To Crossbay Blvd." According to the article, there was supposed to be a 76 St tower also.
Hey Grimace,
I've been down there three times in the past week in the course of my duties at Pitkin Yard. I didn't see any station and don't think you will see any station unless you bring a sledge hammer and a pick-ax with you to break through the wall.
There is a section covered in ballast with no tracks, a bench-walk on the right side and then a wall. I will take photos next time I'm at Pitkin with my low light camera and send you a copy. Unless you want to meet me and we can explore it together.
MORE SUGAR!!
LOL!!!!!!!!! You're sick! I agree with your findings. Say hello to the group.
MORE SUGAR, INDEED!!!!!!!
I'll bring the extra flashlights.... and the "Jenniver Convertible" can use his tea trolley to serve the Starbucks coffee. Sweet!
The Eggman
...are you the Eggman?...
Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can the RAYMONATOR come?
De-caf for me!
In the movie mimic there is a station in the subway with an old subway car,that went to coney island in ti's heyday,what type of car was that susposed to be anyway ? also in the ninja turtle movie 3 a hidden subway station was complete with a subway car,hollywood likes the subway for it's tall tale flare,hope there is something to this "hidden subway station" it would be intresting to see photos of it.
There's also supposed to be a NAVY Street station, in the movie THE BONE COLLECTOR - with and old subway car.
I wish they would have more info on the subway cars that appear in those movies,espcially the ones that are from the real early years,the one in mimic almost seems like it really existed.
The car in "Mimic" appears itself to be a mimic of a BMT Standard. But I bet it wasn't real at all. I also heard the station they used was actually in Toronto.
I thought "Bone Collector" was horrible all around. I forget the details of the subway scene, but I remember at the time telling a friend who saw it with me why it was all wrong. Not being a railfan, his eyes glazed over, LOL.
Thinking a little harder as I write, I seem to recall "Bone Collecotr" showed a very fake-looking Lo-V and gave it IND destinations on the roll-signs....
It's easy enough to to check the Euclid Ave. tower. I have also heard rumors of such stations and have actually visited one. Above Utica Ave on the A line is a 4 track station with 2 island platforms. It's accessed from a doorway on the southbound plat. of the A line. I am told it was part of the Stuyvesant St. subway - never built.
It doesn't hurt that you can plainly see the shell for that station from the platforms at Utica Ave. They went ahead and built the shell along with the Fulton St. line so it wouldn't interfere with operation when the Utica Ave. line was being built (which, of course, never happened).
A friend of mine took a trip down there and found the two home (interlocking) signals facing Manhattan on the northbound tracks.... about two car lengths from the bumping blocks! He also noted that the bumper light signals at the end of track are really automatic signals that were converted. If the story is true, then there are 7 blocks of unused/sealed tunnel. You would never know from the street. The area is full of quaint homes. I am wondering if 7 blocks is enough room for the two yard leads to join the four track system, have 76 St. station and according to the map, have room past the station for 2 diamond crossovers.
I mentioned it to Mr. Brennan about 8 months ago and was shot down. But he was open to evidence.
This station is not mentioned by Brennan. If true, this is a major find. Excursion, anyone?
It would be fun to see it, but I imagine that doing so is impossible.
Excursion. Dah.
Komrade Seven, alert playland and load up the warsaw pact unit.
das vedanya.
Komrade? Warsaw? Das Vedany? This sounds like something a socialist/railfan like myself would be down for......
Excellent, IM all commied up, shall we say ummm...... next weekend? how about them nude mexicans in the Q cars in Bush Term, with the amigos eh? cool to see that Locomotive go from bay ridge to bush term, Real SBK sh**. its a good thing we got to those cars. Just dont hump 'em, you see what kind of great things you can do NOT railfanning? Oy, I think i feel the PCPs
Excellent, IM all commied up, shall we say ummm...... next weekend? how about them nude mexicans in the Q cars in Bush Term, with the amigos eh? cool to see that Locomotive go from bay ridge to bush term, Real SBK sh**. its a good thing we got to those cars. Just dont hump 'em, you see what kind of great things you can do NOT railfanning? Oy, I think i feel the PCPs
Funny ... I think this is written in English, yet I have no idea whatsoever what it's supposed to mean.
Translation: There are old cars near bush terminal. There are mexicans living in them. They say "Amigo" a lot. This has been verified through firsthand experience.Vlad saw a locomotive.I too, saw it. So far as I know, certain RR cars have signs on them stating " Do not hump these cars". Mocking anyone who spends too much of their leisure time at the front window of a train. PCP's are bad for you and the environment.
thank you, also Marcin, I appreciate you using my first name, but then again several people know my full name on this board already,
Well, you told me they did, so I figured you would'nt mind.
Excellent. I am ready, as always. For any expedition. Warsaw pact Zenit unit is packed and ready, which is somewhat unusual, though the meter on it is not working.
Paul: I spoke with Steve last year up at Branford and he seems quite certain about his info. However I did walk along Pitkin Avenue to 76 Street and there is now evidence (vents etc) of any subway below.
At 76 St and Pitkin Av houses have been constructed. I don't know if they predate the subway or not. There is no porvision in the building line for staircases and I believe it would only be possible to put a staircase on one corner.
Fulton Street mainline tracks A2,4,3,1 end at a bulkhead which seems logical. However Pitkin Yards leads A8 and A7 where constructed for what seems a very short distance and switches were installed leading to them. A bulkhead was subsequently placed accross these two tracks.
It would not seem logical to construct such short tracks which could serve no purpose unless indeed they did lead through to the station at 76 Street. This is a real mystery.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I agree. That is one thing that stuck in my head. There isn't any room for staircases on the corners. If the houses predate the tunnel then it is a mystery. I was in the area recently and it appears that the sealed yard leads would cut right through under one or two residental blocks similar to the way Grant Ave Station and the portal are constructed.
A similar conundrum exists with the original idea of the 2nd Avenue subway's line in Brooklyn: how would the Schermerhorn Street tunnel work past it's current (now Transit Museum) termination of Court Street when infact the next block the street narrows down and becomes a deadend street with much older Brownstones, etc past Hicks Street.
BMTman
I'm sure the answer is boring. :-)
Rim shot!
They would simply have condemned the properties by "eminent domain", as that was much easier to do in the 1930-40s than today.
If you can afford the rental, there's "earth tomography" equipment - it's an ultrasound device, some use microwave and are useful in locating underground "caverns" or structures ... betcha one of those would settle the argument at street level ...
Better yet, go find one of those sizemograph trucks they use in the oil industry to do 3-D mapping of underground geologic formations and park it over Pitkin Ave. Since the nearest oilfield is in western Pennsylvania and part of southern tier of upstate New York, there's bound to be at least one of those babies about 250-300 miles away...
Yep ... that's one of the mobile versions. They also come in a toolchest variety ... but that's the easiest way to find out without trespassing ... and for anyone who saw the scene in "Ghostbusters II" where they were digging up the street, you've got "what to tell the cops" covered too while you're out there. :)
Now all we have to do is figure out how to get Schlumberger, Halliburton or one of the other companies with a bunch of those sizemo trucks to bring one to southeast Brooklyn....maybe they'll do it in exchange for drilling rights on the known oil deposit above the Steinway tubes on 42nd St. :-)
Oh COME ON ... Brooklyn kids not knowing how to boost a parked truck and go joyriding? I'm TRULY disappointed. Heh. But that's how one would answer the question as to what's down there. And if it got filled in, you should still be able to get spikes on the graph for where the more solid walls are ... it's really the only way to answer the question without getting TA feathers ruffled ... and hey, if you take the truck and give it back ... oh nevermind. :)
There is no way into whatever station structure may
exist at 76 Street short of breaking down one of the
two walls.
Wouldn't it be great if they had tucked a couple of trains of BU's in there before they sealed it up, as a type of time capsule of equipment from the 1950's.
That would be awesome. But I'd be happy enough just to get into the station.
i be happy if theyed used the ststion.
That would have been nice, but after all it was an IND station.
Perhaps the secret entrance to the secret station is through one of the mausoleums in the adjacent cemetary. Just look for the one with the red globes on the outside. (Credit RR)
Would be a kicker if it were a metrocard-only entrance
Retinal Scanner!
avid
When was this "missing" portion of the line supposedly constructed? I would assume (dangerous, I know) that there are records somewhere - similar to those discovered by Bob Diamond regarding the LIRR Atlantic Avenue tunnel - that would document its construction and existence. Any work in that area involving any form of buried utilities - water, sewer, gas - would have to take its existence into account, if indeed it does exist.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course, as to the Atlantic Avenue tunnel, Bob is the modern discoverer. The existence of that tunnel was known though arcane--a portion had been visited in the '50s by three prominent railfans--IIRC, they were George Horn, Martin Schachne and Dave Rogoff.
AFAIK, the Pitkin Ave. tunnel has no such pedigree--so I wonder who the two people Steve mentions are? If they visited the tunnel, than there must be access. From where? This could be pretty easily settled with an inquiry to the proper city agency, I would think.
Question: If the first person to "discover" the Pitkin Avenue Mystery Tunnel finds R-9 1803 there, can he keep it?
Steve claims to have spoken with at least one TA employee who
recalls visiting the station in the late 1960s and seeing the
blue tilework. Since then, the two portals, one from the yard,
the other from the mainline, have been sealed. It is entirely
possible that the area was backfilled during one of the sewer
projects.
Do you realy think the TA would allow the City to do that to one of their tunnels,and was the 76 st station a local stop.
Well, sewers and other utilities are often recorded with the city/county clerk's office in the form of "easements", especially if they have to be relocated onto private property. This would be a good source of information.
Hey, Paul! I've heard about the 76th Street 'mystery station' story directly from the horses mouth when Steve Kroshowski visited Branford on Member's Day. He said that the station was totally cinderblocked over not long after it was built. He plans on doing some 'splunkering' there in the near future.
Steve, BTW is also an ardent supporter of the 'Mineola on the Atlantic Avenue LIRR Spur' area of discussion. He showed me a letter from Vincent Seyfried stating that he (Seyfried) had been wrong in his beliefs that there was NEVER a connection between the IRT subway and the LIRR (I'll have to send you a copy of that).
Anyhow, he is one railfan with LOADS of stories that most always gets a captivating crowd.
P.S. Steve K. also boasts that as an undercover cop in Brooklyn's East New York section in the 70's, he was the basis for the idea of 'Supercop'.
BMTman
Steve, BTW is also an ardent supporter of the 'Mineola on the Atlantic Avenue LIRR Spur' area of discussion [ ... ] he is one railfan with LOADS of stories that most always gets a captivating crowd [ ... ] also boasts that as an undercover cop in Brooklyn's East New York section in the 70's, he was the basis for the idea of 'Supercop'.
Uh, oh ... you're scaring me, Doug ... has Steve said anything about working with Boris and Natasha? ;-)
I thought it was well established that Mr. Belmont took his pals on the Mineola from Times Square to the beaches over the LIRR trackage, the connection having been somewhere near downtown Brooklyn.
I thought it was well established that Mr. Belmont took his pals on the Mineola from Times Square to the beaches over the LIRR trackage, the connection having been somewhere near downtown Brooklyn.
It's been rumored but not proven. I tend to doubt if any records exist that could prove matters one way or the other. If that's indeed the case, and considering the fact that any people with personal knowledge of the events surely are, as the French would say, eating dandelions by the root, we'll probably never know for sure.
Not necessarily.
Back in the days before e-mail, people wrote letters on paper. Some correspondence discussing such an outing may rest at the bottom of a drawer somewhere.
The provisions for the connection were in plain view at the west end of Atlantic Ave. IRT within my memory. I understand this is now obscured. I also believe there is evidence that the track connection itself may have existed at one time.
The argument is whether the "Mineola" ever used this connection to take Belmont et al. to Belmont. It appears that the consensus of historians is that this never happened despite anecdotal evidence, including a recent piece in The New York Times.
Not having studied it in any depth, I have no opinion myself.
I suppose it's one of thise mysteries. Just for discussion, tonight I watched my videotape of Jack perkins' A&E special (1994) about the subway. Perkins stated directly that Belmont would take guests from midtown Manhattan to Belmont Raceway via IRT & LIRR, though he didn't state wherre the connection was. Atlantic Avenue seems logical, however.
Whether Perkins was righ or wrong, it makes the discussion more interesting Personally, I'm inclined to believe it's true.
This is a big problem with historic research on transit topics.
Often material is written down by a railfan based on rumor or
even wishful thinking. Without proper footnoting and documentation
of sources, an error or embellishment gets handed down from
work to work until it becomes accepted as fact.
I will say this: I have no idea if, in fact, Belmont did make
the trip from his hotel, via the IRT, Atlantic Ave connection and
LIRR. It certainly is plausible. The track connection was definitely
in place. The MP41s would have been compatible with the Mineola
(which is basically a Manhattan gate car in construction) and the
voltage, at the time, was the same on the LIRR.
Most of the belief that this connection was actually used by
Belmont and the Mineola comes from an article written many years
ago by E.J. Quinby. "Jay" was one of the founders of the ERA and
one of the most important members in Branford's history as well.
However, he was prone to distorting and embellishing the facts.
If you read his article, it is clearly written in a tone of
"it could have been". For example, he postulates the exact station
the Mineola would be passing through when the champagne was served!
The only other evidence of which I am aware is the track map
in the Stonybrook LI history collection which was drawn by
Bob Emery. On it, he indicates the track connection and states that
it was used by Belmont's private car between 1906 and 1914 (I may
be wrong about the dates he gives). This is a map drawn after
the fact and the source of the data is not cited. Emery, however,
is a bit more reliable source than Quniby.
There is also rumored to be a picture showing the Mineola
sandwhiched in a train of MP41s. Of course, no one can produce
this picture although many people claim to have seen it somewhere.
The issue raises a few side thoughts:
Everyone concentrates on the Mineola going to Belmont. But what documentation do we have as to where the Mineola did go? Any pictures or records at all? (e.g., "Mr. Belmont and the IRT took his private car, the Mineola, to Woodlawn for opening ceremonies" etc.)
It would be unusual if a connection existed if it was never used, on two roads in which a single powerful individual shared an interest. After all, in similar time frames, the rival BRT had interline agreements with the LIRR which saw LIRR trains going to Park Row and Broadway Ferry and BRT trains going to the Rockaways.
If it existed but there must have been a reason for non-use.
Joe Brennan, whose opinion I respect highly, doesn't think the connection ever existed, or at least has not seen any credible evidence that it did exist. No question that the provision existed; I see it daily when I use the Atlantic Avenue connection from the LIRR Flatbush Avenue station.
It seems that the entire legend about Belmont and the LIRR connection stems from a 1956 railfan magazine article indicating that such a connection existed and was used often by Belmont to ferry his friends to Belmont Racetrack in luxury (champagne, et al). There is no independent evidence to prove that these events actually occurred. The story is obviously a romantic one and was therefore swallowed whole by the A&E tape (which I have and watch often) and by Stan Fischler's "The Subway" book.
Brennan does have a very plausible alternative explanation for the existence of the IRT/LIRR connection. Apparently, when the Atlantic Avenue Improvement was being planned, one of the obligations that the LIRR had to fulfill as a condition of getting an underground RR terminal was to furnish a connection between the LIRR and IRT so as to permit LIRR cars to travel directly on IRT tracks to lower Manhattan, thus giving commuters a direct Manhattan connection without having to transfer (as we do today). The connection was built but for some reason the plan never went through.
I think this is going to remain a legend that will neve be either proven or disproven.
RE: Belmont's Mineola using Atlantic Avenue connector track;
All the riduculous posturing about when and if it was done ignores some basic facts that would substantiate that, circumstantially, it WAS done. Follow this summarized set of known facts:
(1) As there was no organized railfan base that we know of in 1904 - and railfans are known to focus upon the important, down to the most insignificant, trival, mundane, minutae of rail subjects - we cannot rely upon railfan facts from that time period as these persons are deceased and had no way of networking and communicating with each other thru
organizations nor communication technology ie:
phone, computer, fax, etc. so if they knew of this
operation - they took it to their graves.
(2) Gibbs worked as a Technical Engineer for the Pennsy - he was called upon by Belmont and the IRT to design a steel subway car body while the wood Composite cars were being constructed. The circa 1902 established car builders declined to get involved because all their plants were into wood car construction. Gibbs and the Pennsy were interested in steel car concepts for their mainline Railroad
application pending Pennsy eventual electrification as well as the Pennsy drawing up the contracts to
take operating control of the LIRR. Gibbs designed
a Pilot steel car - and the modified Gibbs fleet for the IRT as we know the original Gibbs Car was produced (without center doors). Gibbs designed it for both IRT and LIRR use - LIRR commuter electrfication was underway. The LIRR and IRT Gibbs cars were identical in control and operational characteristics except LIRR cars had platform floor traps, vestibule low-platform stepwells, the roof BOX headlight common to later PRR & LIRR MP 54 cars - and truck "pilots" like steam engines.
(3) Belmont owned the Belmont Racetrack which was operating as the IRT lst subway was being built.
He contracted to have the Mineola built for the purpose of tours on his "railroad" (subway line) as well as to take officials and VIP's (and family) to the racetrack he owned.
(4) The IRT was built by private investor funds and money was NOT wasted and only facilities that were to be USED were planned, designed and built - including provisions for extensions of routes.
(5) The LIRR was rebuilding the Atlantic Avenue terminal as a subway to replace the street level facility in concert with Third Rail Electrification and arrangements between Belmont and IRT engineering
people and the LIRR planned for and built the track connection (one track) connecting the IRT to the LIRR - for two purposes:
(a) LIRR and IRT had tentative plans for limited joint service - LIRR could get to midtown Manhattan and the IRT could get to Brooklyn and Queens along
LIRR newly electrtrified routes. Having identical
equipment meant no clearance problems and also
allowed for trainlining of both equipment types in case of road failure of one or the other type to facilitate tow-removal off an active route.
(b) Belmont also wanted that provision to run his private car as well as IRT specials to the Racetrack as limited runs during racing season.
(6) The joint operation of Rapid Transit and Railroad Lines was a quite common event between 1890
and 1920 - especially for the LIRR. LIRR had joint trackage right contracts with the BRT to run BRT
steam and later electric gate cars to Rockaway and
LIRR running their steam (with Forney engines and center-door open platform gate "EL TYPE" size cars)
trains to Park Row and/or Sands Street complex - and later using their LIRR Gibbs cars - both on the
Williamsburg Bridge to Chambers Street and back to their mainline by the Chestnut Street Incline ramp from the "old" Fulton street EL which is today part of the Jamaica El past East New York. The Brooklyn Bridge Trains used the track connection from the
BRT 5th avenue El at Atlantic Avenue to get off the el and down to the ground level at Atlantic Avenue.
Part of this structure connection survived on the LIRR Atlantic Avenue LIRR station sidewalk up until the 1980s - some very limited girderwork. This was the route to the Rockaways.
The Manhattan Railway Company had since 1890 - a
track connection from their 2nd & 3rd Ave. El Harlem River Bridge at E.129th Street - to the New Haven RR
at the NHRR E. 133rd Street (Bronx) freight yards.
The NHRR ran "transit type" passenger cars (open platform) with Forney steam engines a bit larger than the Mahattan EL Forney engines - and the coaches were built to Elevated clearance standards.
The NHRR ran up to the Elevated Bridge southbound
from the Bronx via a 2-track ramp (that survived with the 3rd Ave. El until 1955-6) and into special
designated platforms at the joint 2nd & 3rd AVE. El
129th Street terminal. When the NHRR discontinued the thru-NHRR commuter trains after El electrification, the electric EL gate trains ran a
shuttle service until 1918 approx. from 129th St. to a station at E.132nd Street on the NHRR in the Harlem River freight yards- where EL passengers crossed a platform to NHRR waiting steam trains. By 1912 this facility became the terminal for the New York, Westchester & Boston (Electric) Railway.
The Manhattan Railway had another connection from their 9th Ave. El terminal in 1888 at E. 155th Street to the New York & Northern RR (NY Central RR later) via that railroads Bridge over the Harlem
River to the Putnam Division of the later NY Central.The Putnam commuter trains used railroad size Forney "Rapid Transit" steam engines and open platform elevated-type-dimension commuter coaches which coincidentally had a 51 foot body size and exact window size, spacing and arrangement as the l902 IRT composite subway cars.(BEFORE center doors were added on the Composites). Putnam trains terminated at the 9th Ave. El 155th Street El Station. That route was purchased by the IRT in 1917 as a 9th ave. El connector to the then being built IRT Jerome-Woodlawn subway line elevated extension via E.162nd St. (Bronx) connection - and later became known as the Polo Grounds shuttle. The Putnam NYCRR terminated at a new terminal across the river with a joint (Sedwick Ave.) station with the new IRT route over former Putnam RR river bridge.
Now that I have established the common practice of Rapid Transit to Railroad (& vice versa) joint
operations between BOTH the IRT and BRT - it makes sense that Belmont, trading on those common type joint service arrangements - worked with the LIRR
to have the IRT benefit from the LIRR (& vice Versa) as the BRT did with the LIRR (& vice versa) and his track connection - though only a single track that we know of to the inbound IRT Local track at Atlantic Avenue - would allow for racing specials of the LIRR to enter Manattan directly - and IRT specials to go to Belmont Track - IF THOSE SERVICES
could be agreed upon. You MUST REMEMBER - the LIRR in 1902 did not have access to Manhattan via the Pennsy Hudson & East River tunnels yet - so this was a consideration for the LIRR. However, two main events forclosed LIRR's possible use of the Atlantic Ave. IRT connection - all concurrent with its absorption with the Pennsy.
(A) The Pennsy was planning the Hudson River & East River tunnels concurrent with a Main Station (Penn Station) at 7th Ave. & 33rd Street - and connecting the LIRR with the terminal via the east river Tunnels with impending 3rd Rail (ala LIRR style) electrfication of the tunnels using Electric
Locos to haul steam engine hauled mainline PRR trains in New Jersey via "engine change" at Manhattan transfer station at Jersey Meadows. Electric DD-1 locos took over all PRR steam trains from Manhattan Transfer Station - to and from that point into, and thru the Hudson tunnels to Penn station and out to layups (and LIRR connection) at Sunnyside Yards. The LIRR commuter trains (electric
MU cars) would use the East River Tunnels.
(b) As part of this new service, the PRR designed an electric MU coach of 70 feet x 10' called MP 54 and in fact, converted many of their steam hauled P-54 steam hauled steel cars to the first MP-54 class electrics. The LIRR had an identical car
built - also MP 54 - but with 3rd Rail operation via 600V DC. The Pennsy elected to use High Voltage catenary for its Interstate MU commuter cars with Pantographs. The GIBBS cars - being narrower, had new vestibule floor trap installed which protruded
6 inches app. outward from the carbody when in down (high level platform loading) position to fill the gap as when the LIRR (and PRR) MP 54 cars were installed - new platforms (at Penn Station) were built for 10 foot width clearances for the MP 54 LIRR & PRR cars as well as 10' wide inter-state PRR
mainline railroad rolling stock. The LIRR had all its high level platforms (mainly Atlantic Ave. terminal station and the Atlantic Ave. Elevated portion) cut back for 10' cars. That precluded the LIRR from running into the IRT with the more favored MP-54 class due to clearance problems in the IRT tunnels.
NOW - GETING BACK TO BELMONT & MINEOLA CAR - how in hell do the naysayers re: the connection use controversy - think Belmont got his expensive custom built Mineola (a Hi-V Car compatible with the Gibbs Hi- V IRT & LIRR Cars--by the way) out to Belmont Racetrack(?!) - a known fact that it ran there. I AM CONVINCED by INTELLIGENT deductive reasoning - that the track connection was the source. IRT trainmaster records would prove my deductions correct - as Belmont's car would be considered a "special move" like a work train - not part of regular revenue scheduled moves - and special orders would have to be effected - train orders - with advance notice to the Chief Trainmaster of the IRT Mainline subway (the original route from
....the original route fromn 1904. Of course, being the absence of "organized" railfans or groups from that period -those records are long since lost - discarded - without any methods of intercepting or saving by whatever railfans might have existed back then.
SO how did Belmont get himself and Mineola to the Belmont Racetrack if NOT via the connection at Atlantic Ave? Not too easily. H didn't Hot-Air Baloon his car from the IRT to LIRR trackage (I am being facetious here!)
By November 1904 the Elevated extension on Westchester Ave (elevated, in Bronx) opened from the subway 149th-3rd Ave. station - his car would have had to go up to the Elevated - ran outbound past
the 3rd Ave. El connecting ramps- changed ends and
switched over to the westbound inner ramp track rising above the descending subway-tunnel bound
outer tracks (trackless steelwork of ramps exists today at that point) - heading 2 blocks west along westchester Ave. to the 3rd Ave El - south thru the 149th Street el station to the Harlem River Bridge - then over the Bridge to the 129th Street Station of the 3rd Ave. El - change ends and switch to northbound local track - back over the bridge to the down ramp (one of two) track on the Bronx side to the NHRR 133rd St. Harlem River freight yards - where 3rd rail ended at the NHRR 132nd Street station. (This would be the terminal for the 1912 New York westchester & Boston electric Railway) - the steam engine (Forney?) hauled to and thru
the NHRR Harlem River freight trackage and much switching to get to the car float bridges of the
New Haven at riverside - loaded onto the float WITH
the Forney - floated down East River to the LIRR
float bridges somewhere in Brooklyn - then steam towed to electrified LIRR trackage for its trip to the racetrack via 3rd Rail - or maybe they would steam tow the Damn Thing all the way to the racetrack!! We also have not addressed the diference in 3rd rail shoes between El drop Shoes for 3rd Ave. El high-close third rail as opposed to what Mineola should have had - subway (and LIRR) type
3rd Rail shoes similar to present applications - so an El car would have towed Mineola down the 3rd Ave. El using its Elevated shoes !!!!
This would have taken much of the day tp effect - not to mention the myriad of IRT and NHRR and LIRR
special train orders for all this special movement.
Don't even mention the Hell Gate NY Connecting RR
NHRR-LIRR Bridge - that didnt open for service until April 1917 and Mineola was not used by Belmont (or any special charter use) by that time - it was facing dead storage.
So how the hell did it get to the racetrack. The only logical solution for speed would be the Atlantic Track connection. After Mineola was
put in storage - the track connection was redundant. Remember, the LIRR was using MP 54 cars to Atlantic Avenue by 1910 - 10 foot wide cars. The track connection was probably removed after 1915 quietly and the work orders for its removal as well as the crews that handled it are long since gone and forgotten. As there were no organized railfans to
dpcument that event spike rail and tie by tie
back then (at least that WE know of) - the event went unheraled. These present days - the whole railfan community would know every detail not to mention all the associated protestations, hollering
and etc. So its is lost to history.
HOWEVER - before any one discredits or besmiches the reputation on any present or deceased elder-statesmen historians who, like myself, support
the probability of the connection use based upon logical, deductive reasoning and intelligence - let these naysayers show proof that the connection was NOT used. Also proffer a logical counter explanation as to how Belomnt and Mineola got to the track
quickly. Belmont has his own entryway and platform at Grand Central Station (todays shuttle) for a speedy ride down the IRT mainline - thru the East River tunnel to Brooklyn - probably wrong-railing out bound on the inbound IRT local track via interlocking just ahead of the A-A station and into the connector track - out the LIRR Atlantic Ave. El to both the racetrack and the Rockaways.
I doubt that a year after the subway route in Manhattan had opened and become rather routine travel - that Belmont still tried to regale his VIP's with trips along the line with champagne and caviar - Mineola was for the out of City special trips for Belmont and his VIP's. Special train orders had to be effected for his special moves - these also are "lost" to time - It is obvious that belmont did not hop on his car at a spur of the moment and get in the way of revenue trains.
If anyone out there disputes the use of the Atlantic Ave. IRT-LIRR connection based upon straight logic-
please for history sake - explain how Mineola got the the racetrack quickly under its own power
via the IRT from Grand Central station (IRT) to the Racetrack????
I have offered logical, plausible and common sense
deductive reasoning to promote this connection controversy.
[please for history sake - explain how Mineola got the the racetrack quickly under its own power via the IRT from Grand Central station (IRT) to the Racetrack????]
Second Ave. subway? :-)
By the way, I have a copy of the Emery map that shows the connection. I'll post it this evening if I get the chance.
Your entire multi-page posting only reinforces what I've
said: be wary of historical research done by railfans which
is often contaminated by emotional attachment to a particular
outcome.
Your argument "prove that it didn't happen" is a pretty good
example. OK, prove that Forney engines were NOT used as work
motors during the construction of the IND. Proof by failure to
come up with a counterexample is not logically sound.
All of the many historical data which you cite, which are
nonetheless very informative, don't bear on the issue. Your
basic argument is that the connection must have been used because
how else did the Mineola get to Belmont track.
Once again, is there any DIRECT evidence that Belmont's
car did in fact travel from the IRT to the LIRR? I don't
mean "it hadda be that way 'cause". I mean direct evidence,
such as contemporary newspaper articles, contemporaneous notes
recorded by a railfan witnessing it, photographs, copies of an
Os sheet or train orders, memoirs of anyone who directly experienced
the move, such as Mr. or Mrs. Belmont, etc. You state that it is
a "known fact" that the Mineola was taken to Belmont track. Where
is the documentation of that?
The fact that these may not exist does not disprove the theory of
the connection. However, and this is my precise point, without
such evidence, it is just a highly plausible theory.
Jeff - if you were (or are) an atheist - a non
beliver in "God" or a supreme being - I would respect your beliefs if only because it is your right to believe so. I myself am not so much religious but I do believe in some form of higher (ie: "God") intelligence or supreme being - and I would effectively state that across all forms of religious sects and variables, I have more company on my side than atheists have on their side.
Most believers in "God" also believe in the human
possession of a "soul" or spirit side. Of course, like you would demand - it is not anything we could
feel, see, touch or merchandise!! People who have
claimed to see departed individuals (spirits, souls) are considered somewhat delusional. However, belief
in the human possession of a spirit or soul is for the most part pretty much an accepted concept. But,
it isnt readily documentable. Does that mean it doesnt exist because of lack of paper, physical or
photo-documentary (or medical) proof??? Or does IT?
Anyone who bore witness to "Christ" and His life and deeds and actual "in life form" miracles performed are long since dead. Modern day skeptics thousands of years later would scoff that the transcrips from those "Christ" years were ramblings of a simple,
ill-educated and peasant civilization mentality
(ie: Bible scriptures) and ..."no one has seen God (or Christ) in 2000 years so He was a figment of
an academically inferior civilization compared to the highly technological society of present day."
A parallel to your analogy of the "railfans" of present times and the credulity or rather lack of same with reference to whatever such "railfans"
comment on or address re: historical rail topics.
However - without actual photo documentation of Christ and documentation of the caliber and quality
of present day instant information technology - it is amazing that millions of people still believe the Biblical (railfan-type ramblings??!!) writings of centuries-old, long deceased "witnesses" to the fact of Christs' actual existence and His obvious higher-than-mere-human presence during those times.
Based on ramblings and writings of medieval peasant nut- cases (ie: likened to railfans of today?) ?
Atheists think along those lines of thought.
I myself AM NOT a railfan - my interest in transportation is strictly a technical and historical preservationist mentality - I am a
known and published Transportation Historian who has mingled with some of the most notable ones - including E J Quinby, Herman Rinke (both of ERA as well as other involvements) and many many other
respected elder statesmen over my 40+ adult years
in the transportation sphere....many sadly deceased
at present.
My response posting to you DID NOT state IN FACT
that Mineola went to the Racetrack NOR IN FACT used
the Atlantic Avenue connection to the IRT. Like my
use of the Bible and Christs' existence - based upon
circumstantial (and un-believable to some people, ie: atheists) "evidence" via the biblical scriptures
of a simplistic, unsophisticated society of the time of Christ---there are reasonable aspects (which I covered previously in my posting response to your posting) of the events surrounding the controversy
of Mineola, the Atlantic ave. track pit, track maps
from long ago showing it, the IRT, PRR/LIRR association with each other re: LIRR Gibbs cars
built identical & compatable to the IRT Gibbs cars -
the LIRR adapting the IRT (not elevated style) Third
Rail system or catenary as planned for the PRR to highly support the "assumption" that at the LEAST - Mineola DID possibly one or more times travel thru
that connection...like Christ walked on earth.
I have read in old journals long ago - not rail-related journals - of such a connection.
After 40 years I cannot remember what books or
articles - the notation was not mentioned in
railfan-related prose but as descriptions of life
and society of those times as a curiosity item
relating to Belmont racetrack and other interesting
aspects and landmarks of old New York. These
books were from the Public Library which I frequented a lot in my much younger years growing up in New york City. And these publications--books
were in no way railfan or transit related or
in any way projected remotely to rail oriented
readership. My Historian status goes far beyond
transit-only in my research and studies of New York
and its development as a City in total.
Getting back to Mr. Belmont - he was related to be
a very private person - very particular in desiring perfection, and expected the most and best of those associated with him in his professional, financial and business ventures. He was well connected to the financial icons of his times both
in America and in Europe. Some related that he was somewhat shy, aloof and perhaps bordering on
snobish.
It would appear that Mr. Belmont - whose IRT line was built with private-generated funds rather than
public tax-dollar funds we are used to these days,
had a "hands on" role in planning, designing and
outfitting every aspect of is subway including the
provision to the LIRR at Atlantic Avenue. After all, the provision WAS built - a KNOWN fact - and planned and authorized by Belmont most certainly. For what
ulterior purpose, may I ask? Certainly not as a
joke or whim to be sure - he watched every penny of expense. It had to have a planned purpose and he expected it to serve its purpose I am sure!
His private car Mineola was an expensive custom work of craftsmanship. It is highly unlikely he would use it with his VIP entourage(s) to look at tunnel walls
exclusiely while entertaining his guests. In fact,
he had a desk which he used to conduct transit related business built into Mineola and I think NOT that he would conduct business from same while
mundanely riding back and forth on the original
IRT subway line tunnel-route solely. The Atlantic Avenue cut WAS built (documented - we all saw it - and I did over the past 50 years since I was a teenager riding the IRT). Belmont and probably the LIRR shared costs to provide for it - the LIRR
Atlantic Terminal was constructed specifically to
make use of it - IT COST MONEY to provide for and
also probably had to have legal paperwork designed
to cover its possibly planned inter-company use.
It CANNOT be disputed by you or anyone -regardless of your desire for photo or printed documentation -
to have not been BUILT ...as it was built.
Furthermore, it was not a contractor mistake or
whimsical aberration by its inclusion - it WAS provided to serve a purpose. I am sure an organized
railfan or transit-oriented historical group - had such existed (that we would be aware of today) then -would have documented its use - albeit documented by special move train orders of the day also. Unfortunately - with no one to preserve (for your
implicit requirements) any "photo or written" documentations - and any living witnesses (IRT/LIRR employees, civilians, Belmont and his VIP Guests, OR "railfans" of the day) long since deceased (like those who witnessed "Christ" allegedly) --who CAN
really say for YES or NO that Mineola DID or DID NOT
travel thru that connection to Belmonts own racetrack and other resort poins on the LIRR????
Jeff - I suggest you spend a couple hundred hours
scouring the ancient archives of the NY Times paper
to see if any "society column" posting of any of Mr.
Belmonts "Mineola" trips to Long Island were posted.
I would proffer you wont find any as I would find it improbable that Mr.Belmont would have
posted press releases, (having read of his private nature and temperment) - trumpeting to the public that he was taking his private subway-car to his racetrack with the whose-who of HIS social crowd when his fare-paying customers had to ride the same original IRT subway route in far less elegance, comfort and style....not to mention champagne and cariar and related amenities. It would be safe to say that such moves to the LIRR, IF they existed, via Mineola, were quietly and conservatively effected as befitted his professional style and class level as befitting those very conservative
times. Upper society did not mingle with working
class populace nor publicized their private matters or family, social agendas to tabloids frequented by the "working class" populace.
I have a few acquaintences who have private railroad cars who occasionally take their cars "on the road.." and dont scream to the press or public or
railfans (except close friends invited for the trip)
that they are doing so - and these friends of mine are professional, educated people who frown on such
grandstanding with respect to their privacy. I would
safely say, noting Mr. Belmonts' high social status in the "society" circles - he would have acted
accordingy. Only the IRT & LIRR personnel involved
with such "possible" IRT-Grand Central to LIRR trackage operation by Mineola - would be by necessity, privy to such details. Whether or not ANY of those individuals were "closet" railfans is unknown and most unlikely - BUT THEY ARE ALL DEAD anyway now and cannot bear witness to documentation!
"YES, VIRGINIA...there is a Santa Clause" written by a New York newspaper editor i
Joe, Lets look at this from the prospective of a Curator of a museum. Neither Jeff or I are Curators, but the Mineola is at the museum we belong to. When we help with the restoration of a car it has to be brought back to the origianl condition (no short cuts, old vs. new technology, etc.), e.g. recently they repaired the frame of our New Orleans car & had to use rivits the same size as you would see on bridge contruction, BECAUSE that's the way the car was original put togather. In addition, the management & customers don't like us to make up stuff so we would realy like to know if there is any proof that Belmount took the car to his race track.
The information that you can sometimes get here is impressive, so Jeff may have just been fishing to see if anyone can provide such proof ... meanwhile WE BELIEVE.
Mr t__:^)
Hi Thurston - Yes - again I must concur with your logic especially with restoration. It is known that some restored stock runs with "not original"
equipment - as some Red Arrow cars did on the former Penns Landing Trolley (sadly gone /sad fate to most of the stored cars as we all know). Red arrow cars
ran on regauged trucks - and sometimes the original trucks on some cars with the Phila. broad gauge were substituted with compatable (but not authentic)
trucks of the railroad gauge the Penns Landing trackage had - mainly to get the cars running while
(or if/when) funds came about to "regauge" the authentic trucks. I guess you would have to ascribe that to "historic license" - but the end result--
(car(s) running and fares generated - was effected.
Same with the IRT Museum low-V's which I am informed do not have their original compressors (and god knows what not else) but if it works to effect getting them (or any other museum equipment) "on
line" - than yes - historic license would be
applied (ie: fudging the some authentic particulars to get operation) .
As a scale modeler - in the event you have or have not seen my O-scale website - or my work with MTH Trains to get as accurately-as-possible production
R-type models out (within reason and mechanical-
electrical production considerations taken into
account) - I strive like your museum guys do - to get the maximum authenticity within (model) limitations and artistic perspective considerations
possible (ie: O-scalers run unprotypically on 5'0"
gauge 2 rail track - a holdover from tinplate track days unfortunately) - but that is where time and
getting it done before I pass on - comes to play.
If I had to rebuild all my trucks and tracks to scale 4'8 1/2" model gauge ---wellll - I guess I wont even go there!!!
I can respect and appreciate and totally support
your/Jeffs position as to the utmost restoration of
original parts, or exact fabrication of facsimile replacement parts where necessary - to maintain
historical preservation and integrity - absolutely.
As I have continually re-iterated in my Belmont-Mineola posts - aboslutely - factual
hard core documentation is the required necessity.
My postings simply tried to underscore the
POSSIBILITY and PRACTICALITY of the connection use
based on surrounding related (but not conection-use-supportive) relevant facts - and did
not state or intend nor imply to state that the car
ACTUALLY ran to the Track. And, yes, we are all
subject (like in religious scriptures from thousands of years ago) to questionable and/or unsubstantiated
postings of facts in printed, published "railfan"
generated and non-fan generated accounts-- of things long past - and can only take them (and the authors expressed point of view) - for, if only, the interesting perspective of the subject published but unsubstantiated by hard fact. I can appreciate Jeff's, Toms, and whomevers praiseworthy efforts
to uncover documentations - and agree & support that
in total! On the other hand- even with out hard core
facts - the assumption of possibility cant be
totally dismissed either - like I was trying to
point out. The hard core facts would only change any
assumed possibilities to actual reality. And wow would it not be great if somewhere, someday in
our lifespan - those elusive (if existing) photos or documents turn up in someone's great-grandmothers'
attic storage box. We can dream, tho, cant we!??
Keep up the great work at Branford - have enjoyed many visits and meeting friends there in past
years. PS> Nate Gersten and I are close friends!!
Also, thanks - enjoyed your posting-points-of -view!!
Yeah, that's basically all I was saying; it would be nice
if someone uncovered more substantive proof of Belmont's
exploits.
As for Penn's Landing, a good portion of that collection became
the Electric City Trolley Museum (www.ectma.org), yes, standard
gauge. The only Red Arrow equipment still operating in
broad gauge is at Arden (Pennsylvania Trolley Museum,
www.pa-trolley.org)
>>> I am a known and published Transportation Historian <<<
Joe;
As a historian I am sure you are aware of the importance of documenting your sources when stating historical facts. And of course the more specific the fact, the more the need for documentation. It may be easy to prove that a certain track connection existed between the IRT and LIRR at one time, but as Jeff pointed out, with out documentation, the purpose of the connection is speculation, and no matter how logical, it should be presented as a the author's belief of the probable use with the reasons for the belief stated as you have stated them in your previous post. The author who states an unproven (though logical) theory as fact does a disservice to all future readers.
The whole thrust of the thread was that unfortunately many transit history books are written by rail fans rather than historians, and as such are notoriously short of footnotes. A writer will see a "fact" in one or two other books and repeat it without attribution. The next writer will find the same "fact" in three books and accept it as an "established fact" when actually it was a speculation of the first writer presented as a fact.
BTW, is someone paying you by the word for your posts? :-)
Tom
I just found the following on the railroad.net LIRR forum. It was posted on May 17:
The connection that we have been discussing here was put into place for the use of Augast Belmont and his legendary "MINEOLA" (which now resides at Branford).
For years, it had been thought that this connection had not existed, but recently, a print of the IRT tower has been discovered in the Bob Emery collection at Stoney Brook U.
The interlocking print shows the connection being removed in 1916.
Whether or not Belmont ever took his parlor car out to the track, well, I guess only photo would prove that.
Tom- I agree totally with your point as posted.
As you will note - all my postings on this
subject (Belmont & Mineola) specifically do not
STATE IN FACT that the event(s) happened - but offer
conclusive relevancy data that is was a probable possibility - I dont know what part of the English language some of you dont understand - but some of the business professionals in my field that I have
brought this subject up (not railfans, not even
interested in railways for that matter) have
concluded based upon assembled circumstantial
reasonings re: all I have covered - that even
though not suported with print, photo or other
form of actual media-type coverage - the possibility
most probably exists. Just like "religion" its for the belief or disbelief (acceptance or rejection) of the person reviewing the subject. Like the well-known former football star case- highly controversial - mostly circumstantial - but based upon newspaper polls countrywide, and civil jury case decision - it appears that more public opinion is not on his side in the case - regardless of the criminal trial outcome-than is on his side.
As far as whether Belmont or Mineola used the
connection or if it was ever used - I could give
a flying fig, really - I just cant understand how
some nut and bolt trackers and counters on this site have nothing better to occupy their time with but to fritter back and forth over trivial inconsequential
matters (such as if a certain car is or is not in a certain yard on a certain day - of ever was, or will be - or is even on a line) - but of course, if that is what floats your boat, so be it. I have come as a
guest to this site to offer some intellegencia imput to those few who might enjoy or have use of it - and
similarly hope to have people reciprocate to me and
based upon the emails I have gotten from people - there are those who do value more than idle cryptic non-comprephendable postings - but no, Tom, I dont get paid by the word - and yes, a "Picture is
worth a 1000 words" as the saying goes...and I wish
I could provide a few of Mineola going thru the
A-A connection or even INSIDE the LIRR part of the
station for the express enjoyment & benefit of all involved to help to settle
all this- but of course, I wasnt "railfanning" on
those particular days back then (just kidding, Tom!)
Lastly Tom- you (and Jeff H) are right and I do agree 100 % about documentation over speculation - and even found that intensive speculation could also provoke intently motivated people to search high and low for documentation - a definite plus factor if they infact do uncover "a needle in a haystack" !!
Good to hear from you again, as always, Tom!
Yeah, but Could Belmont have been Railfanning if and when the possible fabeled and alledged ledgendary onetime, oneway, by invatation only trip took place.
If YES, did he/she/it railfan on the return trip or was everyone in the crapper?
avid
On the return trip- I guess it depends upon (a) how good (or bad) the champagne and caviar they consumed outbound was and (b) how much of that they consumed and (c) how much $ they lost at his Racetrack-all re: being in the crapper on their way home!!! As there was only one crapper closet -seating for one -
it could have been scary with a car full of
loose-colon VIP's !!!
- I just cant understand how
some nut and bolt trackers and counters on this site have nothing better to occupy their time with but to fritter back and forth over trivial inconsequential
matters (such as if a certain car is or is not in a certain yard on a certain day - of ever was, or will be - or is even on a line) - but of course, if that is what floats your boat, so be it.
Hmmm ... no one has asked about the manny B flip flop this week or why the lights on the Flushing Redbirds blink 8*P
--Mark
I myself AM NOT a railfan - my interest in transportation is strictly a technical and historical preservationist mentality - I am a known and published Transportation Historian ...
And I highly value your opinion given your background.
But what about that awesome layout and your scratch built models that you have made of the IRT in the '40s? All the hours and hours of work you put into that - to me, that is a labour of love that says railfan all over it.
--Mark
Hi - Mark - thanks for the kind comments - my reason for creating the "Operating Layout Exhibit" as I call it - with excrutiating details to not only the cars and lineside right-of-way (ie: the El and yards) - but also to details most railfans dont focus on..street details, building details, close to authentic sinage and ads - autos..the whole city scape- were my attempt to - as my website states - create as totally as possible - the entire panorama
of the CITY "neighborhoods" and its transit (ie;
a generic replica of the els I rode initially as a childhood pastime) in a model scale. I rarely operate the damn thing - MY enjoyment is other people operating it (per shows & City Civic centers it was exhibited at for many years---and more recently at my home home base) - and THEIR enjoyment and memories of riding (and wishing to operate the prototype) ---the el (and subway) trains & trolleys.
I rode the els - like many kids and some adults - as something interesting (and inexpensive) to do - the same "travel bug" that feeds "leisure and vacation"
oriented fare-revenue producers (customers) to the
transit, mainline rail and other forms of "get-away" tranportation modes. All frequent lesiure
riders of trains, for an example - forgetting other
travel modes under this scenario - doesnt necessarily make all of them "railfans" or even
remotely interested in trains per se. More specifically, it (train travel) is their "means to a way" - passing time and looking at the passing
sights (limited in the subway somewhat!)
I am also interested in old airplanes. ships, old roads, railroads, bridges - historic buildings- even was embarrased to admit an interest in old cast iron
streetlamps of NY and other places (kept THAT quiet because until I found "Jeffs Streetlight" web site -
excellent study by the way - on the net - I thought people would think I WAS NUTS on that regard!).
Also interested in old busses (heresy to "railfans"
even tho on an operational basis I find streetcars
on restricted or private RoW superior to busses as some of my posts have related re: streetcars & rapid transit VS: bus substitution). The fabric of my "soul" regarding all above including rail interests
leans heavily to the historical (preservation) of it
all. I had interesting private conversations with photographer Ann Shanks whose photo works - quite
excellent - on the Manhattan 3rd Ave. El - exhibited at the NYC Transit museum a few years ago as well as
other sites in previous years. She had no
railfan interest whatsoever, as she related to me, in the "El" She felt it was a unique, important piece of (Americana) New York history that she felt compelled as a commercial photograper to preserve in photoprint for study by future generations - as she knew the el was soon to be no more. Noted artist Reginald Marsh - who did many "portraits" of the els on canvas - looked at same as an interesting subject matter - but was not a railfan as I was told. Same for Lothar Stelter who created the incredible color views of the 3rd Ave. El for the Book 'By The El'. My friend and books' publisher John Henderson told me that Mr. Stelter was NOT a railfan - the el was a very interesting subject with its surrounding "cityscape neighborhood vistas" as one of many
photography exploits he covered under his primary hobby - photography >also a former professional field and now past-time for me also. My building the
HO and O scale elevated displays can be likened to their non-railfan pursuits of the subject. HOWEVER - I do have many "railfan" associates & friends and
socialize with them (sadly infrequently) enjoyaby
from time to time- but my interests in the rail subject (like the "artists" mentioned above) is on a quite different plane than theirs- more on the artistic (re: my modeling and photography related rail pursuits) and historical pursuits. I have a friend who is a Hotel food and beverage (bar)manager
who has NO taste for liquor but knows the liquor business "A to Z" as part of his long career in Hotel F&B - but doesnt drink alcohol. So, Marc, here is another long post but it the only way I can explain my position re: not a die-hard railfan but
also rationalize my involvement (heavily?!) in same.
Good to hear from you again. Must try to keep posts
shorter also - will really TRY. Regards....Joe
There was a connection between the IRT and LIRR at the Atlantic Ave station. I've read it in engineering documents concerning the Atlantic Ave station.
There was a connection between the IRT and LIRR at the Atlantic Ave station. I've read it in engineering documents concerning the Atlantic Ave station.
No one ever doubted that the connection existed. It was plainly visible, though without tracks, until recently obscured by construction work. What remains an open question is whether it ever had been used.
Ok, now I understand what the debate is about. Yeah, I've seen the connection also. Why wouldn't it have been used? I'm sure circumstances could have arose that would have taken advantage of the easy connection.
I thought the story goes that Belmont took the Mineola (his car) through the connection and out to his racetrack. Is this being debated?
I thought the story goes that Belmont took the Mineola (his car) through the connection and out to his racetrack. Is this being debated?
Belmont had the connection built for the Mineola, but it's not known if he actually used it.
Personally, I don't mind the fact that the question probably is unanswerable. It's nice to have a few mysteries.
Ok, True.
And you can wonder too, if, the LIRR MP 41's were ever operated onto the IRT, back in it's earliest days, through the connecting track at Atlantic Ave. for any kind of test run, even if only for a short distance. Subway type third rail shoes would have had to have been installed on them of course.
MP 41's DID have third rail shoes. They were essentially Gibbs cars, similar to the early IRT equipment. I also believe that going that far back LIRR had the same voltage as New York Subways which was 600v.
BMTman
Interesting about the voltages being the same.
I have been collecting and photocopying material about the MP41's for a few years. Most of what I've assembled is from Ron Ziel's books, and the 7th volume of Vincent Seyfried's LIRR history. Richie Harrison's memories of being an LIRR engineer also include a short section about them. There is also two or three pages devoted to it as the first steel railroad passenger car, on a mainland railroad, in that book, approximate title: The History of American Railroad Passenger Car.
Someone I met in the Sunrise Trail group a few years back group sent me photocopies of two or three original journal articles about these cars when they were new. I've bought a few photos of them from Ron Ziel (including a view of the MP41 used as a crew car, layed up on the Willets Point station LIRR tracks for the 1939 World's Fair).
As you probably know, one option that was proposed/planned was to extend the LIRR operation into Manhattan via the IRT tracks at Atlantic Ave., and so these earliest MU's were built with that in mind.
I have also read that these cars were designed to MU with BU el cars; with the intent in mind of running some kind of mixed consist probably during the era when the BRT used LIRR trackage to the Rockaways.
I've been told that these later BU cars (1300's, 1400's) were low voltage. I find it fascinating that if so, then the IRT's Gibbs cars, which were a little over a year old when the MP-41's were being designed tested and built, used the older Hi-Voltage system (and went with it for another 11 or 12 years), while the LIRR, who's car was almost identical in appearance, used a whole other technology.
I've been told that these later BU cars (1300's, 1400's) were low voltage. I find it fascinating that if
so, then the IRT's Gibbs cars, which were a little over a year old when the MP-41's were being
designed tested and built, used the older Hi-Voltage system (and went with it for another 11 or 12 years), while the LIRR, who's car was almost identical in appearance, used a whole other
technology.
Common misconception: Hi-V MU systems came before Lo-V. This
stems from the fact that the IRT initially used the General
Electric type "M" system, which was high-voltage, then in 1914
switched to the GE type "PC" system, which was low-voltage.
In fact, neither system (i.e. high vs low voltage in the
trainlines) really represented a technological evolution above
the other. Same goes with automatic acceleration.
The following is a brief chronology of MU technology:
1897: Sprague invents MU, inspired by work he did with electric
elevators in 1895. He licenses the system to GE. It is a low-voltage
(about 14 volts) system using an electric pilot motor and
has automatic acceleration with the familiar switching, series,
parallel arrangement.
1897: The Sprague-GE system is used in Chicago.
1898: Westinghouse, under license from Sprague, concocts a
derivative called notching-head control. It uses a pneumatic piston
and a ratchet in place of the electric pilot motor.
1898: Brooklyn begins massive conversion to electric MU operation
on the elevated system. Most of the order goes to WH though some
GE units were used.
1898-1899: Both systems are demo'd on the Manhattan el but the
conservative management declines to adopt them. Forneys chug on.
1901: GE breaks with Sprague and invents a significantly different
form of MU control system known as type "M" (for Magnetic). It
uses a number of heavy contactors with high-voltage coils and
high-voltage trainlines, and dispenses with automatic acceleration.
Sprague wins a lawsuit determining that his patent covers the very
concept of multiple unit operation, not just the implementation.
GE is forced to pay royalties.
1902: GE wins the contract to equip the Manhattan el system, now
a division of the IRT, with type M control.
1903: Perhaps inspired by GE, Westinghouse introduces what is
essentially a pneumatic, low-voltage version of type M, however
having automatic acceleration. This becomes known as type "AB"
control. It replaces the older notching-head (which was
problematic) as Brooklyn continues to equip electric MU cars.
1905: Westinghouse refines the original AB system, replacing a
klugy turret with a straight-line design. This continues to be
their basic MU package, with continuing refinements and engineering
changes, into the 1940s.
1914: General Electric introduces PC (Pneumatic Cam) which can
be ordered either high or low voltage and has automatic acceleration.
The IRT tries them out on the Flivvers, then later the Lo-V order.
The system is trainline compatible with the WH AB system, so the
BRT/NYM uses both on its pioneering order of 67' cars.
P.S. I think the MP41s used Type M, same as the IRT cars. They
were not intended to operate in train with BU cars. They did,
however, run over BRT trackage via Chestnut St, Broadway Brooklyn
and the Willy B. to Chambers Street for a couple of years before
joint service with the LIRR was discontinued.
Jeff ... just wanted to say thanks for the historicals there. Nice to know one can still learn here. :)
Thanks very much for your answer Jeff - detailed accounts/histories such as yours are welcomed! I'm printing this post to save and read through again.
It's nice to have a few mysteries.
Yes it is, but mysteries were made to be solved. There will always be new mysteries made from the solutions of old ones.
Deciding not to solve mysteries because mystery is good is as silly as stopping progress because some looney tunes think that Redbirds are god.
BTW, the above was another blatant attempt to bash the Redbirds.
Nah, these be elephant times. BURN the witches. :)
The debate now is where or not it was actually put into use (i.e., August Belmont using the spur to take guests aboard his car 'Mineola' to his Belmont Park racetrack).
Even Bob Emery indicated the connection between the northbound IRT and track #6 (now #1) at Atlantic Avenue on his series of LIRR maps. His collection is at SUNY Stoneybrook.
BMTman
It would be very interesting to have a photograph of that "phantom" station. There might be more "phantom" stations on the IND subway lines.
BMTJeff
It would be very interesting to have a photograph of that "phantom" station. There might be more "phantom" stations on the IND subway lines.
Yeah! Wouldn't it be something if we learned the entire Second System was actually built, except for a few small pieces? Wanna guess how long it would take in modern day NYC to build those few small pieces?
Yeah! Wouldn't it be something if we learned the entire Second System was actually built, except for a few small pieces? Wanna guess how long it would take in modern day NYC to build those few small pieces?
Paul: We do know that the entire 2 Avenue Subway was built with money from that 1950 bond issue, but diligent search by railfans has yet to find its location. Of course if we do find that station at 76 and Pitkin we may really learn what happened to Jimmy Hoffa and Judge Crater.
Larry,RedbirdR33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
Knowing New York City they would certainly find a way to make sure that it takes it least ten years to build a short stretch of a subway line. What happen to the days when the private subway companies could build nearly ten miles of subway and have it ready in 4 1/2 years from scratch to finish.
As for Jimma Hoffa and Judge Crater maybe they're both buried at 76th St. and Pitkin Ave. You never know.
BMTJeff
All those arguments we've been having over the months of where to terminate the V?
They've just been settled.
Just some questions.
Wouldn't the tunnel still be the responsibilities of the NYCTA, for its inspection and bare maintenance to keep it from collapsing? They did to this even with the ex-IRT tunnel in the Bronx. Rust never sleeps. If those houses were built after the tunnel was built, did utility improvements also take place which would have torn up the streets, possibly exposing the tunnel? Would a watermain break cause a huge problem?? Does the NYDOT have any info/drawings, so they don't backhoe into a tunnel? Who has the drawings for construction?
This is a major find if it turns out to be true.
I take my coffee regular no sugar no bag no napkin please. Who is bringing the cream cheese for the bagels??
MORE SUGAR is an inside joke between the Eggman, Grimace and myself, sorry. But the coffee idea does sound good anyway.
My friend brought that point up. You just can't simply seal it off and not have access to it. That would be illogical. Then again we are talking about the TA. There must be maps somewhere.
LOL....you may bring the cream cheese.
This is also true. I read in the NY Times some years ago about all the trouble some proerty owner had when the sidewalk covering an entrance to the old 91st/Broadway Station collapsed. He actually had to PAY the TA to provide an engineer to figure out how to safely re-cover a hole in the ground that belonged to the TA.
Another thing about holes in the gorund is that they require ventilation, or methane gas can build up in there and explode one day. This happened about 5 years ago, in Brewster, when a restaurant was built on top of an old in-ground swimming pool and no provision for ventialation was provided.
If this tunnel really does exist, not only would there be records at TA, the city/county clerk's office, as well as Con Edison, Verizon, but TA would actually have to MAINTAIN it.
Perhaps it was planned and they installed some signals, but went no further?
We once inquired about the Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel in the Bronx and who owns it. We were told that the "owners" are the landlords of the buildings above it. So if it were to collapse, these landowners would be responsible for it. This tunnel has supposedly been sealed (again) recently, though it does have ventilation openings on both sides. I am not aware of the TA inspecting this tunnel at all for years and years. Otherwise, "Rocky's Chop Shop" under there would never have been in business for as long as it was.
This would be consistent with the landlord having to pay the TA for an engineer at the 91st "entrance". Whether this is right is also open to debate.
--Mark
You make a good point. This is sort of liek the age-old debate about who owns a sidewalk in front of a house. However, there's another twist here- the Sedgewick Tunnel is totally disused, so there's arguably some justice in requiring property owners to asusme liability.
The 91st Station is physically attached to the very active Broadway Tunnel. Entering the 91st Station is considered to be trespassing upon TA property. It is not, in my opinion, right for TA to have forced someone who was likley completely unaware of the station to pay to fix its partial collapse.
Sort of like if my house is next to yours and my house sttles on its foundation and causes yours to crack, you'll probably hold me accountable.
I don't think NYC Transit inspects the Jerome/Sedgwick Tunnel in the Bronx anymore. I'm not sure if they ever did.
--Mark
NOW THIS IS EXCITING !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
The map is something else. From the ERA Bulletin.
"The map is something else. From the ERA Bulletin."{
I saw the map in my ERA Division bulletin. Very interesting indeed.
However, this brings up some questions. I believe that station if it exists may have built in the late 40's. Now if there was any people from the neighborhood still living today to verify and subway construction, that would help too.
Like it was mentioned here before, there must be some City department that has records of subway construction to verify this. Also. don't subways have grate on the sidewalks ? Someone mentioned that too.
According to the ERA map, that is a four track subway with a local station. To enter that after punching a hole in the wall you would enter a dark, spooky tunnel. Imagine what that station looks like today.
I met Steve K. at Branford 2 years ago and he is a normal level headed guy, no two sheets to the wind railfan. Like I said before, NOW THIS IS EXCITING !
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
I recall as a younster of 5 yrs. old the construction goinig on in that area. Conduit Ave . had detours, the center median is where the old Conduit Ave was. It was seperated into two oneway segments, becoming North and south Conduit Ave. This was done at the same time the merge and flyover at the junction of Linden Blvd and the Conduit was built. At that same time the overpass for Crossbay Blvd over N&S Conduit was rebuilt to its current size. There had been a temorary wooden bridge erected while the current structure was built. Our family had close friends in East New York that we visited frequently from our home in South Ozone Park. The construction seemed to go on forever. This was done about 1948-49-50. This was i believe the route to go along Linden Blvd of the Phase II IND program. That area is still showing Vacant land. Back then the incinerator was operational, so it wasn't a desirable place to build.
avid
If one would go to that area on the surface, he/she would see a natural depression in the cwnter of the vast median. If he/she were to walk form east to west the depression rises to a point where it would appear to be level or even higher than the streets (north and south Condiut) Here you will find the subwat grates. If there is a mezzanine, it should be about here.
Guesstamation time.
avid
I think a highway had been planned here, to run from as far away as the Williamsburgh Brige. My 1967 Mobil map shows Conduit Ave designated as Interstate 78, which is customarily thought to end at the merge of the Holland Tunnel with Canal Street, but Mr. Moses planned a highway along Canal directly to the Willy B and beyond.
Perhaps that where these stories mesh- TA had started work on an extension, only to be kiboshed by Moses?
Those grates are a little past the Burger King at Grant. Those are for the yard leads. To be honest, I am not sure if they are for the active leads to Grant or the abandoned leads.
I was recently down in the tunnels, looking up at those very gratings. They are right at the point where the two abandoned leads and the two leads to Grant Av. are first separated by tunnel walls, which in turn is slightly East (RR South) of the emergency exit to Conduit Blvd.
My two cents: IMHO there is at least some tunnel beyond the bulkhead in the abandoned leads, as the bench wall has been crudely demolished just prior to this wall, apparently to accomodate the bulkhead's (later) construction.
As for the unbuilt road in this area, here's some info on Steve Anderson's excellent NYC area roads site: http://www.nycroads.com/roads/bushwick/
Great work, French Banana!! That clears up some things. How is your song coming along? Starbucks?
I had thought these grates were further north on the yard lead to Grant Ave. when I saw them two Saturdays ago. Your posting where the unused yard lead begins; will be an aid for anyone who's exploring at street level in that area, attempting trace the yard lead's path towards the possible 4 track tunnel east to 76th St. They will now be able to use those grates as a starting point. Thanks for the info.
<<...If he/she were to walk form east to west the depression rises to a point where it would appear to be level or even higher than the streets (north and south Condiut) Here you will find the subwat grates. ...>>
I was out in that area about two weeks ago and saw what may be those same subway grates you've written about along the North sidewalk of the northern (inbound) lane of Conduit. Turning around to look back south, I was facing the land above the portal at Pitkin yard. The north-south street above (or immediately to one side?) of the portal is Grant Ave. So they are, most likely, grates that are above the central yard lead north from Pitkin that merges into the ramp up to the el structure (western yard lead - from Euclid Ave.; cinderblocked eastern yard lead - intended towards 76th St.). On David Rogoff's IND track map, this yard lead is actually shown as being one level, directly or partially, below Grant Ave. station.
... Unless, you're referring to another set of grates.
The construction seemed to go on forever. This was done about 1948-49-50.
Some things never change!
I tend to agree with MainR36WF about the Conduit becoming a highway at one point that was to take up all that space in the middle of the Conduit. The tracks do go down Pitkin. Do you remember if those houses in the area of Pitkin Ave. were built way back then or were they built later on?
The houses along Pitkin definately look like postwar construction. I'm wondering if these houses could have indeed been built several years or a decade later, partially above or just to the side of what could be the tunnel's structure, since the four mainline tracks that dead end at Elderts Lane are very deep (being below the underground yard lead to Grant Ave., and possibly these would have been a level below the eastern cinderblocked yard lead as well) and might have continued at that level for a distance (or rising just slightly) into the 76th St. station.
I also read somewhere that the though the IND was opened as far as Rockaway Ave. (4-9-36), the actual structure had been completed as far as Euclid Ave. station before World War II; with all further work (finishing work in tunnels and stations; installation of track and signals etc.) coming to a halt with the war's onset. Could this mean perhaps, that the structure was actually built further, through 76th St station during the mid 1930's as well; when Pitkin Ave., east of Euclid, was much less built up and it would have been less difficult to excavate and build in the area?
Additionally, from 1936 through Dec. 1940, could this project have been put on the back burner, if the Board of Transportation's priority had been to put the bulk of their resources (financial and material) towards completeing the Sixth Ave. subway first, rather than attempting two projects at the same time?
Euclid ave was not opened till 1948
I know this; Euclid Ave. was opened in, I think, November 1948, a little over three years after the end of world war II. Since I didn't include that in my posting, my point about this structure having been built in the pre-war years through Euclid ave (and to the east?) and then just remaining unused, with no further work towards completion, until after the war may not have been clear.
There is a statement in Building the Independent Subway that the Fulton St. line was complete "slightly beyond Euclid Ave." by 1942; however, signals and track had not been installed. The Broadway-ENY station opened in 1946.
Thanks. I do have this book but didn't remember I'd read it here. There was also one other place where I read the basic structure through (and beyond?) Euclid Ave. station had been completed by or before the early 1940's but I don't remember where.
Ed: I believe that you are referring to the ramp from Church Avenue up to the BMT Culver Line. Construction started in 1941 and was suspended for the duration. It was finally completed in 1954.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Do you mean by "beyond Euclid Ave." that I was referring to the incline and ramp up to Grant Ave. station and instead meant the Church Ave ramp? Not sure here, but that is what I understand. There may have been provisions originally built for the future extension to Grant Ave. (how much I don't know). But by "beyond Euclid Ave.," I was refering to the 4 main tracks continuing east, either dead-ending under Elderts Lane, or built to 76th St.
I know that the bulk of the construction beyond Euclid to Grant Ave. was done during the early 50's. On David Rogoff's IND trackk map, the northern yard lead up Grant Ave. is shown with a bulkhead (like the one on the cinderblocked yard lead in question) but then there's his note, "bulkhead since removed," which was done to complete the yard lead up to Grant Ave.
Ed: I may have misunderstood what you said. As you said at least two parts of the IND were partially finished when construction was halted by WWII. These were the eastern end of the Fulton Street Line and ramp from Church Avenue to the Culver Line. You make a good point though. It seems as though the original intent was to run the IND Fulton Street Line east under Pitkin Avenue and that the rerouting of the line onto the outer end of the BMT Fulton Street El was done as an afterthought or possible a less expensive alternative. Certainly the connection to the Rockaway Line didn't make much sense. While it does provide Rockaway riders with a one-trip ride to Manhattan it does so by a very slow and circuitous route. It would have more sense to run the trains up the Ozone Park Branch and connect into the IND Queens Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Well, Brian Cudahy mentions it in Under the Sidewalks of New York.
I agree about the homes, they don't appear that old. I have a small map from a plan book that has a line labeled subway under Pitkin and the line ends at 79 St. Today at 78 St. there is a kink in the road southward of about 10-15 degrees and the avenue is a few feet thinner when going east.
I think we may ALL be onto something here. After thinking about it some more today (work was very slow), my latest theory goes like this:
The IND line was planned to go along, underground farther than it did. However, with the onset of WW@, nothing much got built beyoned Rockaway Ave (maybe some preliminary tunneling, but not much more). after the war, construction restarts, and they get as far as Grant Avenue, the yard, etc......
Moses comes along, and one way or another, gets Conduit Avenue for his own, and the IND winds up re-routed onto the dual contract EL a few blocks earlier than originally planned. Moses' highway also never gets built here.
The final results?
1) Most likley , there's no station here, much as we all, myself included, would like to believe otherwise.
2) A few approaches and home signals are installed, part of TA's wishful thinking.
3) Moses' highway also goes mostly unbuilt, leaving the ditch in the middle of Conduit Ave, and the "Nassau Expressway", finally built in the 1980s
The second system proposal that was unveiled in 1929 originally called for the IND Fulton St. route to take over the BMT el out to Lefferts, in addition to the other extensions to southeastern Queens (see this site's IND history section). The term that was used at that time for the city's system to acquire routes built by the earlier companies was called "recapturing."
As I understand it, in railway or subway construction, signalling is one of the final things installed, after the actual structure has actually been completed.
I understand your thinking but...........on the inside, rear cover of Stan Fischler's The Subway is a map. Proposed extensions dated 1939. On the map, the planners wanted to gain access to the Fulton EL like it is today and at the same time have the four track system go out to south eastern Queens (229 St.) and a connection with the LIRR Rockaway line (after its proposed sale.) Shortage of funds and a later connection with the Rockaway line and the EL made the four track line redundant and if it exists, they sealed up what they knew they weren't going to use.
The 1929 second system plan was written about and explained in an initial, long New York Times article, in September of that year. It included a map of proposed routes for all boroughs, showing the Queens extensions you have mentioned, and was closely based on a map prepared by the Board of Transportation. The actual Board of Transportation map was reproduced in the out of print collection:
"Twelve Historical New York City Street and Transit Maps, 1860-1967" (1997)
Yes. The two maps are quite different. Some routes eliminated and others added.
I'm quite confident in believing a highway was planned here. My sources:
1) My 1967 edition of the Mobil NYC Streetmap shows Conduit Ave as Interstate 78, which today ends at the Holland Tunnel
2) Conduit Ave, both North and South, serves partially as the service roads to the Belt Parkway. If you drive westbound, on N> Conduit, alongside the parkway, at the Bkln/Queens border, Conduit turns away from the Belt Parkway, but retains the look and feel of a highway service road- two one way streets with a depression in the middle.
3) At least when I last drove there (1988), I noticed an above ground electric vault, of the type often found where the city has many lights arranged in a (for lack of better description) "family", like on a highway or a park. I don't knwo what if anything's installed in this vault, nor even if it stil stands. Nowadays, I pretty much stay on the highway out there.
4) When I was a kid, my dad told me about old plans for a highway connecting the Holland Tunnel to the Willy B. I don't ahve a citation handy, but I later found evidence that Dad was right.
That was long, I know,- thanks for reading!
Looking at the Pitkin Yard detail, do those two little stub tracks that head in the direction of the tail tracks from the yard actually just end there short of the tracks, or do they connect to the tail tracks, and then maybe on to that station?
That's what everybody is trying to find out. You are correct with your statement. According to the master plan the leads are supposed to connect to the tail tracks and to the station. Those two tracks don't exist anymore and there is a cinderblocked wall at the location.
IF THIS STATION DOES EXIST, WHEN WAS IT BUILT, LATE 1940S MAYBE. sOMEONE MUST HAVE SEEN CONSTRUCTION IF ID DID OCCURE.
Additional food for thought.
Near Cohancy St. just west of the Rockaway Branch overpass above the Belt Parkway are several Manholes. these Manholecovers have NYCTA or NYTA as part of their casting. Hmmmmmmmmmm.
At the Northwest corner of Crossbay Blvd. and Conduit Blvd ia a Park Dept Ball field. The street on the south side of the Ball field serves as a service road for the west bound Conduit. It as an unusual ramp like appearance. Could anything be below It? In the late 40s and early 50s this area had a lot of construction and detours. Perhaps this area is intitled to a closer examination.
Where is Indiana Walsh?
avid
"Where is Indiana Walsh?"
Is he related to Kevin Walsh ? That's the man for the job !
Bill "Newkirk"
One and the same!
The manhole covers have N Y C T S molded into them. I'll try to search for more manhole covers between Aquaduct station and Eulid along Conduit Blvd.
avid
Cooooooooooooooooooooooooool! I'd be willing to take an excursion. It makes you wonder if there are any secret stations south of Church Avenue on the F. The same was done here. One has to wonder what the IND would have done if the BMT hadn't gone out of business. Here in the Bronx, the D line swings East before 205th Street. It was supposed to continue East to Co-op City. I wonder if there's an abandon station under my old neighborhood in Burke Avenue. Hmmmmmmm...
If the station is intact, pull down the wall, lay track and terminate the C Line at 76 Street.
Chicago Tribune Article
Better get your photos while you still can.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Come again? You're in Chicago. Most of us are in New York. You want us to get photos?
Umm, not every SubTalker is a New Yorker. There's plenty of Chicago SubTalkers here, too.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It also looks like the new Garfield station on the Green Line is about ready to open.
Lots happening on the el - now if they could just improve the headways!
I know, I know. (I was 150 miles south of Chicago until January.) But most of us are in New York, and I think it's fair for this New Yorker to request, on behalf of the rest of us, that you and the rest of the Chicagoans take care of photographing your system while we deal with ours. (I am. I have about two dozen stations so far. I posted one picture in another thread.) Besides, my zoom lens doesn't reach quite that far.
Kiewit...now where have I heard that name before? Oh, yes, they were major contractors on the Wilshire/Western segment of the Los Angeles Red Line subway. To their credit, their part did not suffer from sub-standard construction, leading to worker deaths and a major street cave-in, as in Hollywood, courtesy of Tutor-Saliba (major politcal contributors, by the way).
I am confused by one thing. The Tribune article mentions building a new line adjacent to the old, and then talks about new construction replacing the old, presumably in place. Is the parallel line the replacement, or only temporary, as in shoo-fly? Will the new line be traditional steel "L" structure, or something else?
As well as the R110B with the orange A (interior of that car too), Wrecked R62's (presumably from the fordham accident), A pump car, 207th St. Yard views, 207th St. Tower and model board and much more.
Photos of all of the things listed above are now available for viewing on my website www.nycrail.com
Check it out!
-Harry
Check out the pictures at my website: The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Wow, I really like that R-110B. It's a lot classier, IMO, than the ultimate R-142/143 design. I like everything I see about it except the transverse seating.
Actually, the only thing I like better on the R110 series is the front bullet rollsign. I personally feel the 142 and 143 are better looking, especially on the front and rear "A" ends. All of these cars, however, need a lot of help on the sides.
:-) Andrew
I'm drooling at the R110B shots. When are the R143s coming. I haven't gotten side views of an R143 B-Car before.
Also, why was there so much trash in the R110Bs and that other dude in one of those pictures. And you put some R142/R142A shots into the R110B page biaxident.
I fixed it up- thanks
They are doing a lot of testing a rebuilding in the R110B hence all the stuff inside.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
So sorry guys, I will put them on the site tonight and respond to this message when they are up. I can't believe I forgot to put up the pictures I was advertising in the original message!
-Harry
I promise- they are of the interior and exterior of the stripped redbirds!
Now you can go to my website to actually see the scrapped "deadbirds" interior and exterior.
go to http://www.nycrail.com/rollingstock/dead_redbirds.htm
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Harry,
You have two R-62 Wreck Photos mixed up in your Redbird Scrap Collection.
-Stef
Thanks
I fixed it now.
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
You have 2 R142 pictures in your R110B photos.
No I don't- I told you earlier I fixed this. Try to refresh the page.
-Harry
Sorry, must've missed the message.
Whoops. Nope. Still one there. This is the interior of an R142/R142A.
http://www.nycrail.com/images/207yd_7_10_01/r110b2001_0710AH.JPG
Ok- Sorry
I won't get rid of it today but will next time I update.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Liked the action movies. Got any slant R-40 footage?
What is the plan for the 110A/B cars? It would seem they are almost brand new and could provide many years of service.
"What is the plan for the 110A/B cars? It would seem they are almost brand new and could provide many years of service"
R-110A - They are in mothballs at Pitkin Yard. It seems that with attention focused on the R-142/142A contracts, the R-110As will be dealt with later.
R-110B - Don't know if it's running or not. It has been reported here that the long out of service "cannabalized for parts" 3 car unit would be be repaired and returned to service. The B division is short of cars as we know. Between the R-110B and that wrecked R-40M with a R-40 slant front, the B divison needs all the cars they can get. Shouldn't have scrapped those R-30s !
Bill "Newkirk"
The A line lost 4 cars when 5305 caught on fire when an RCI put in the wrong heater fuse. For over 3 years now, the TA and their departments have not put together another 4 R44's. In 207 yd. are 5283,85,84. These were the cars that were orphaned by 5282 when it derailed and was cut in half by the movement of a switch by a signal maintainer at 135 St. They have a spare car, 5402 in the yard but for one reason or another they have not returned these cars to service.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
scraprb2001_0710AC.JPG Is a good before and (almost) after shot!
Good Job!
Today my son and I worked with each other again and a cable T.V station did an Interview with us. The channel is The Metro Channel and the program is called Subway Metro. They did a 20 Minute start up interview on the Platform at Pelham Bay Park starting around 12:15PM. The timeing was good because the only type of train arriveing and leaving Pelham from 12:08PM to 12:36PM where R142A's only. The TV crew also wanted to ride our train to so they can show us in action performing our duties. We made our normal 12:36PM out of Pelham Bay. We were suppose to have an R62A but they held the R142A for us. Besides the TV Crew there was a NYCT Public relations Rep. and a T.S.S riding with us to make sure everything went to plan. We did get a skip from 125 to 86 Street we where running about 5 Minutes late. I think the interview went great and hopefully turn out good as well. Also some TA workers at Pelham terminal got into the interview as well as reaction from our riders.
How did you work with your son? Is he a C/R or a T/O?
He is a Conductor. My daily Conductor who I use to work with Tues-Fri Retired after 25 years of service. My son is Extra Extra and just happen to be assigned to do the job for the day. We worked together about 4 times before. My son is a good C/R even other T/O's have good things to say about him. Also JR keeps the train on time most of the time which is another plus. My picked job is not easy for C/R's because I have 2 main rush hour runs. I am out during the peak AM Rush and the 4pm hour of the PM Rush hour leaving Brooklyn Bridge.
Cool! Be sure to get a dub of the tape ... then make copies ... whether it feels right or not, you've gone down in subway history and with a better spin than Luciano on the Brighton line. Heh.
Well me and my son are considered to be the stars of the Pelham Line. Its too bad I got pick out of Pelham Bay so starting in Aug. I will be on the No.1/9 Line out of 242 Street and Broadway. Even since the interviews I seemed to have gotten alot of respect at Pelham. Now everyone keeps asking me Why did I leave the No.6 Line.
Your right about one think like it or not we went down in history as the first farther/Son team to be noticed.
Wowsers ... you traded the 6 for the west side version of the slow boat to toonerville? I smell someone who could use some counseling. Heh. Well, the OT can't be beat and you get to see the outer loop of the ferry until you puke. Almost as exciting as eating olive loaf. You'll be back on the 6. :)
If you know your times out of the terminals, let me know, the 1/9 is my home line...
They are mailing us a copy of the broadcast. It should be fun to watch.
Make copies ... get an eBay account ... I'm sure many of us would want copies ... I know I'd be good for a copy since it looks like business is finally starting to pick up after nearly a year of really lousy paychecks ... by the time you've got dubs made, I might actually have a few sheckels ... up here in Smallbany, what happens down there is of no interest to the locals so the only way I'd ever see it is on tape unless CNN picks it up (they won't since it ain't ATLANTA) ...
Congratulations, Dave!
And thanks for the single horn-blast at Brooklyn Bridge this morning! I wasn't sure if you had seen me at first.
Noticed you had an R-62 on that run.
If there's a next time, I'll try and ride with you and Dave Jr. all the way on a 1/2 run to the Pelhams.
Take care.
BMTman
Too bad you couldn't rate a Redbird.
There was PRESS there ... last thing the MTA would want is a redbird to refuse indication or one of the cars to fall off its trucks sideways with cameras and press there to cover it *live* ... heh.
Yes part of the Interview on a Redbird could have been lets see how Jr currects a Door Problem.
Heh. Not to mention, "OK, here's how to jack a carbody back up onto the trucks" ... "here's what happens when you flip a compressor breaker and you're not wearing gloves" or "here's what happens when a brake stand falls on the floor" and "oh yeah, here's how the TA handles a rainstorm on the windshield" ... uh yeah ...
TA is crazy but they're not insane. At least not medically. :)
And if it had been a train of oldtimers, you could add "Here's what you do if a step plate breaks off under your feet. Whooooooooooooops!!!"
It goes (I won't do it in 6 inch high letters) "CLANG!!!!" as it falls into the half tracks below. Then you're forced to retreat, pull your key, close the gate and move a car forward or back. Been there, done that.
On a side note, Heypaul sent me a *WONDERFUL* gift - a cassette recording of a consist of R9's in operation with all the wheezing, grunting squeaking, hissing and an obviously bad trainline pipe since the compressors NEVER shut down the whole time. Ahhhhh, MADE my day! Whatever car it was recorded in wasn't too happy a car though I *was* impressed at how well the door air lines were running and it did sound like it had *ALL* of its motors on all the cars.
I don't think a Redbird would have been a good idea. We did get an R29 for the last trip and one of the cars was 8660 on the back end. That trip with the Redbird was a nightmare coming back uptown.
Dave,
I see from the your reponses that you are the hot topic of the #6 line. But curiosity prompts me to ask - how does TA management feel about all the hype about you and Jr? I mean they get so figgity about any publicity that they themselves did not initiate (least of all to give operating crews a piece of the spotlight).
Are you guys going to be on Transit Transit anytime soon?
By the way - last Saturday afternoon on the R142A (7361 in the lead) did you really have to shout into the intercom? We could hear you all the way out in the middle of the car. Some of the other passnegers thought you were going nuts (a B/O PA and non working announcements while inconvenient should not have caused such a commotion).
Allan
All of the following original (not reproductions) maps are on eBay:
Item numbers:
1165068293 - Sea Beach 1915
1165074859 - East New York 1908
1165081690 - Brighton Beach 1909
1165100934 - Subway System 1957 Seaman's Bank
1165427187 - Brooklyn Bridge Sands Street 1932
1165431844 - Brooklyn Bridge Sands Street 1924 Trolley
1165436345 - Brooklyn Trolley 1910 Track Map
1165442932 - Subway System 1974
1165444069 - Subway System 1976
1165455110 - Subway System 1948
1165724224 - Subway System 1964-65 World's Fair
1165733366 - Subway Sytem 1969 Revision from 1968 Map
1165736759 - Subway System 1972 Version 1
1165739278 - Subway System 1972 Version 2
1165741234 - Subway System 1978
Except where noted, all are NYCTA or predecessor official maps.
What do those little green light on the side of PATH cars mean?
I know that they were recently added and there are one on each side of every car? They go on when the train stops and off when the train reaches 2-3 mph. I assume its a indicator to the c\r meaning that he could open the doors? Or does it mean that the zero-speed relay has been engaged so that there is power to the door motors.
The green light on the side of the cars mean that the brakes are in use.
Why green? I have no idea.
And the reason why the world needs an external indicator light?
Doesn't the T/O know when the brakes are applied? Who else needs to know?
Probably there for the tower operators so they can determine if the train's going to mount the platform and give them time to clear the room at 33rd and HOB ... ya never know. :)
How is the TA going to assign train operators to the Q's, the Sixth ave shuttle, and the W? Are some D operators going to the Q local, and some B operators going to the W, some Q operators to the 6th ave shuttle, and some to the Q express? How is that going to work?
>>How is the TA going to assign train operators to the Q's, the Sixth ave shuttle, and the W? Are some D operators going to the Q local, and some B operators going to the W, some Q operators to the 6th ave shuttle, and some to the Q express? How is that going to work?<<
It's called a pick.
My dad works in the maintenence div. of the TA (well, he's actually moved on to another division, but that's a whole different topic). Every now and then, people get to pick what jobs they want. W4th shop nights. Roosevelt Shop (note, that shop was closed) days. 59th st. shop from 4pm-12pm, etc. Similarly, Train Operators pick what job they want. So, before the flop, there will be a pick, and everybody will re-pick their jobs. The picks are based on senority, so if u and me pick the same job, and you have more years on the job then me, the you'll get the job.
T/O's pick 'runs', not shops, just to clarify that.
If I'm missing anything or I've said anything WRONG!!!! someone (Train Dude, Zman, anyone else who might know) please correct me/add what I missed.
You've got it right.
T/O's and C/R's are allowed to pick any line that they want, providing that there is an available job for that particular line (only people with very little seniority have to worry about this).
The following are the tours and sections in the B division. Everything is based on the B division but the A division has the exact same rules:
North: A, C, J, L, M, Rockaway Park Shuttle
Queens: E, F, G, R, X. (X jobs are special combination Road/Switching/Platform jobs that can start anywhere in the B division). The V line will also be in the Queens division starting in November.
South: B, D, N, Q, Franklin Shuttle, Grand Street Shuttle, Queensbridge Shuttle.
Tours are: AM, PM, Midnight.
Days off are: S/S, S/M, M/T, T/W, W/T, T/F, F/S.
C/R's and T/O's are restricted to picking within one section, days off, and tour. They cannot flip-flop. So a T/O cannot have 3 days on the B and two days on the F for example.
There are many other assignments available:
Vacation Relief: New assignment every week. No restrictions on tour/section/days off. These are chosen by the T/O or C/R bidding on open jobs.
Extra List: New assignment every day. 95% of jobs will start within picked section. Restricted to one tour and one set of days off. 95% of Work Train (Miscellaneous) jobs also fall within these guidelines.
Extra Extra List: Brand new T/O's and C/R's fall into this category. They can start anywhere in the B division (and usually do). Tour and days off are assigned by the Crew Dispatchers Office and are subject to change. Only individuals with no seniority that cannot pick a job and those with special religious and other exemptions (with valid proof for both) can work Extra Extra. At picking time, if there is at least one job available when it comes time for you to pick, then you MUST select that assignment and leave the Extra Extra list. The transition from Ex.Ex. to picking a job is when things in your personal life get really tough since at this time for T/O's mostly, the AM shift is not available and most lines are already taken. Also the only days off available are T/W or W/T. So you could imagine having to work jobs with an average start/finish of 5pm to 1 am with Tuesday/Wednesday off. C/R's can usually pick any tour that they want when they come off Ex.Ex., but they'll still have T/W or W/T off.
Thanks for the Info. on B Div. I am thinking about going over to the B Div sometime after Probation. I already know all there is to the A Div besides I grow up on the IRT rideing on my dads train on almost every IRT line so its getting boring but I would be considered a trader if I did make the switch. If I did go I would look at the A,B,D,F,J,N lines. The thing that may stop me from going is 1. I know very little about B Div. and 2. I hear bad things about B Div. supervision.
Also one C/R was telling me there is forced overtime and C/R's have to work 6 days a week.
Is that really true?
1. I know very little about B Div. and
2. I hear bad things about B Div. supervision.
Also one C/R was telling me there is forced overtime and C/R's have to work 6 days a week. Is that really true?
1 - So go over and learn. You can always pick back if you don't like it.
2 - And the guys in the B Div have heard some great stories about A Div supervision. You know your job - just do it and they can't say a word about it.
Forced overtime - This part, alas, is true. If the Crew Office is short either CRs or TOs, they assign overtime in inverse seniority order. I don't know how rampant the practice is, but in the 5 months I was there as a CR, they never called me. (The ONLY RDO I have ever worked was when I was in the National Rodeo in 1999 in Torronto - it happened to coincide with my A to B Transfer training as a CR).
Like Zman179 said the A Div follows the same set of rules but hears the set up in the A Div.
The A Div only has 2 sections
Broadway: 1/9,2,3,7 Lines
East : 4,5,6, GCS Also has Most of the Platform jobs which start out of Grand Central AM's 6AM to 2PM PM's 12PM to 8PM. GC Plat. Partrollers work on the Lex line from 125 St to Bowling Green also cover Times Sq on the Shuttle and 72 St and Broadway southbound Plat. They go mostly when Times Sq is short on help.
I am under Road Extra (XXX) meaning I can start anywhere in the IRT. The Crew Assignment office for the IRT are very nice people they try to keep us close to home.
The Crew Assignment office for the IRT are very nice people they try to keep us close to home.
This is debatable. When I was an XXX (and VX) CR, I was sent all over the place for no particular reason. Granted, not much is close to Staten Island, but when I was working Midnights, why did I always get the GO report at White Plains, while my friend who lived in Westchester would get the GO report at Bowling Green? My classmates got the South Ferry platform job a few dozen times; I saw it once. I will admit they got better when I moved up to TO - they mostly kept me at Van Cortlandt; working yard jobs; or the New Lots shuttle.
It seemed like they where good with my class. I did work every line but since I'm closer to the Bronx I get bronx jobs. The Brooklyn classmates seem to get those jobs most out of Flatbush and New Lots. I only seen 2 Brooklyn jobs and 1 job out of Queens. It was funny the both times I got a Brooklyn job the Brooklyn classmates when sent to 241 Street or Pelham. Some people advised me to book sick since the jobs where out of the way and started early but I bit the bullet and did it and I'm glad I did because both jobs paid 10 Hours for only 2 trips. The only bad thing was I had a 4HR Commute. 2 hours to drive to 240th Yard and 2 Hour train ride from 242 St-VC to New Lots.
>>>>>>>>>Some people advised me to book sick since the jobs where out of the way and started early but I bit the bullet and did it and I'm glad I did because both jobs paid 10 Hours for only 2 trips.
Oh I see. These people would call you a "traitor" if you picked into the B division, and since you are on probation, you wouldn't get paid for taking the sick day. Obviously, the advice that you've been receiving should be disregarded as soon as it comes out of their mouths.
And it's funny, I never hear anyone here in the B calling a fellow employee a "traitor" for wanting to pick into the IRT. Actually, you kind of feel sorry for him (Rimshot).
I heard the same stories when I transferred from the A into the B back in 1994. Believe me, it's all a load of crap. The people that say those things are the ones that always get into trouble.
Thanks for the Advise. I will try out the B Div. within 2 years. I think I'm finally making up my mind. I may pick South and try out the B,D,N Lines.
I dont know about that. I live in Bklyn and I always report to Woodlawn and Dyre or VC. (Woodlawn is not bad since it is about a hour ride from Bklyn on the express.) I would look at the sheets and see that the people from "uptown" would get jobs out of FLA/Utica/Nlts. I dont think I would ever understand the "screw office".
That seems to happen with all of the new people. It's kind of like an initiation to the TA.
When I was Extra Extra as a C/R in the IRT, it didn't matter where they sent me since I lived by 14 Street on the 1/2/3/9. But they got me anyway, they gave me a bunch of jobs on the 6 which I hated.
When I was Extra Extra as a T/O, they kept me close to home 85% of the time. It also helped that the Crew Office knew me since I worked the Extra List and Vacation Relief for three years in the B division as a C/R.
While we're sentimental about the Redbirds, and some TA employees seem understandably glad the 'birds are going, they certainly did stand out in recent years.
A year ago, I was visited by a friend who'd been to DC a few times. I advised her that the NYC subway was quite different. Her reaction was kind of "uh-huh" it didn;t seem to register much, even when we entered the 72nd/Broadway IRT station, with it's old stationhouse and all. We went to the downtown platform. While she noticed it was old, it still didn't make much of an impression.
A few minutes later, a #2 rolled in, and she exclaimed "WOW!! This really IS different from DC!!".
While those of us who post here could of course tel the difference between R44, R46 (there ARE subtle differences, but that's another thread) and R142s versus what runs in DC and what I've seen depicted in LA, etc.....I dpn't think non-fans will be as aware. Redbirds were obvious to all who saw them. I was certainly glad that my out-of-twon friend got to see them before it was too late.
For those who don't know yet where their line rated, such as the previous E/F thread, here it is:
http://www.straphangers.org/statesub01/chart3.html
Please tell me whether I misunderstand the Straphangers' report, which made today's newspapers (7.11.2001). I get the impression that the report is mainly based on TA documentation. I can understand that we need to take the TA's word on mileage-between-breakdowns, but it seems to me that a better report on reliability and cleanliness would come from volunteers taking notes on the scene. For example, residents of Bedford Park know that the 4 beats the D to 42nd Street almost always, and that the southbound 4 has a better headway in actuality.
The discussions on this site are often thoughtful, with good ideas, insights, information. Thanks.
I really don't know if the info comes from Straphangers or the TA
>>> Please tell me whether I misunderstand the Straphangers' report, <<<
If you go to the Straphanger's web site, you will find a detailed explanation of the methodology they used in preparing the report.
Tom
http://www.straphangers.org/statesub01/chart2/
For coin ratings, just read up the amount of money worth and put it in order to see first-last.
Also,
http://www.straphangers.org/statesub01/chart4.html
For past ratings.
Well, it has always been argued that Corona's redbirds are soooo well maintained, and that redbirds will always be the best. But the redbirds aren't even best in the A div, much less the system. The 1/9 have breakdown rates rivaling the Q and D trains, and the 4 and 3 trains also have excellent rates. What cars do these lines operate? The Corona redbirds are still very good, but uh, the 5 was only better than the G. Those birds breakdown every 66,853 mi. and the 2 was ranked 15th.
So, for all youse mugs who keep using that 'redbirds are reliable' argument, spare yourself. (although, the 6 line had a bad rating too, ranking at 16th.)
The argument in favor of Corona has alrways been that the R-33/R-36WF Redbirds have been in the same place for 37 years, and therefore are better maintained because the Corona people are completely familiar with them.
On the other hand, the mainline Redbird cars -- including the WF Redbirds moved over there in the 1970s -- have been here, there and everywhere throughout the A Division yard system, and haven't been given the same type of treatment from the same group of maintenance workers over the years. Which is why nowadays the MTA isn't playing musical chairs with its car fleets as much as it used to do (other than due to route changes or GOs like the Willie B closing two years ago).
To be fair, for the past year or two the Redbirds have been maintained as though they're about to be thrown out -- that is to say, very barely. All the complaints you've been reading about a/c? Two years ago the a/c wasn't a problem on the Redbirds.
but for now and the past 2-3 years, why would the TA waste money to fix them? they are going to retire very very soon.
they should start fixing the r62A's that are coming to corona instead of fixing the old cars that are leaving in a few months
i belive the r62a cars will be getting a make over like changing the windows, fixing any bad a/c and stuff like that right? it can not come all messed up
If you believe that, i'll sell you hell gate bridge. =)
It'd be nice... though i rather doubt it.
If they are getting a makeover, will it be done at 207th Street or Coney Island. Speaking of overhauls, once the 7 is "redbird free" will its equipment still go for overhauls and wheel work at Coney Island?
Getting my sight back in San Francisco!
From what I have learned at westchester yard all the 62a's that go to Corona all 30 of them will have new floors.
All the complaints you've been reading about a/c? Two years ago the a/c wasn't a problem on the Redbirds.
( THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS ) !!
I say the E is slightly better than the F as far as arrivals when necessary. As Far as speed goes, I love to Choose R46 F's anytime. Plus i know several crews from the F, so i get to see what it looks like while the operator is operating. The E does arrive more than the F though. Like when I take the 7 from Main street and i want to get of at 74th to get a Queens bound E, most of the time, i missed an F as the Homeball is red. Before you know it, a series of R32's arrives and there goes my E Train! Plus i like the F better, but I grew up riding the E. The E has taken me and my family to a wide variety of places. I have been riding the E pretty much all my life. Also whats funny about the E, people don't give it much thought, but on Saturdays like this past weekend, when E service is suspended, people miss it! Funny about the E, u really don't appreciate it until its not there anymore;
>>The E does arrive more than the F though.<<
The E is scheduled to come every 5 minutes, the F every 4. You probably are expreiencing that personal experience where you come in the station, and an E shows up first.
>>Also whats funny about the E, people don't give it much thought, but on Saturdays like this past weekend, when E service is suspended, people miss it! Funny about the E, u really don't appreciate it until its not there anymore<<
This happens with every line. When the G was cut to shuttle service, people missed it's regular service.
What a coincidence! I regularly ride the Queens Blvd lines bound for 71st Street Continential. And the G always seem to arrive more often than the R. But compare to the N, the R is wonderful! One wonderrrrsss.....
N Broadway Line
I regularly ride the Queens Blvd line in the reverse-rush in the morning, so I often see the departures from 71/Continental. The R is most assuredly more frequent than the G. Usually there will be one R to Whitehall (even though it usually ends at Canal or 14th), then an R to Brooklyn, then a G, then an R to Whitehall, etc.
Ok... I don't ride during the Rush Hour so maybe your right.
N bwy
During middays, the trains alternate. However, more often than not, you end up with the R leaving, 1 minute later the G. 9 Minutes later, another G. One minute later, another R. Thus the cycle repeats.
>>Usually there will be one R to Whitehall (even though it usually ends at Canal or 14th), then an R to Brooklyn, then a G, then an R to Whitehall, etc.<<
Since the Broadway station re-construction began, all R's have been going to Whitehall. (and it seems like every third R terminates at whitehall.) It is likely that this will continue after the bridge flip, since I don't think that they will run any R's express.
I know alot of nice Motormen who do alot of nice things. I oftne ask questions, that i bet if it was a snotty supervisor he wouldn't answer. Like how to dump a Train correctly, how did this and that work. I know a Motorman on the A division, (I will not mention names) who showed me how a Train reacts to a broken Electrical portion of Electro pneumatic brakes. Wow! He pulled like 80lbs of air, but it felt like a 20lb application! That B2 sure does help stop the Train! It was a 11 car 7 Train of Redbirds, and it felt like only one was hitting the brakes! Then there is another Motorman i know, who let me get a Cab ride all the way down the F line on R46's. Its a great view, especially at Smith 9th street. Plus you can see everything the Motorman sees. Just gotta watch out for supervision especially at Continental. Also there are several bus operators like that.....
If you show a sincere interest and are respectful about it, people are willing to show you things.
When I toured the country on Amtrak in 1988, I took a lot of pictures. The train crews let me see a lot of things. They woke me up at night so Icould photograph their work in a marshalling yard. They allowed me to ride next to the engineer in a head-end cab. They never got tired of my questions.
When I got home I mailed each of them prints of themselves at work.
On my way through Cortlandt St today, I heard amplified singing, just after I got through the turnstile.
Turns out it was a SA singing into his microphone. He wondered why I was looking at him strangely and was going to buzz me back out to talk, when I answered his question “That’s not somethine you find every day!”
BTW: It’s good that he has a job as an SA. Couldn’t make a dime singing…
John
Which line was this??
...Wouldn't happen to be OUR Cortlandt St. (1/9)
would it???
The other one. S/B R/N, the booth at the north end of the platform.
John
The N line vs. the R line
You are more likely to get a seat on the R line than the N line. Even though both lines are schedule to run less often than most lines (7.5 is outrageous!!!). Since you are less likely to get a seat on the N, doesn't it sound rational to have more schedule N service? This has always been a concerned to me. More schedule service equals less crowded trains and reduce stress.
D&Q vs B,M,N&R lines
Comparing the Brooklyn Lines: The D and Q are both schedule to come every 5 minutes during the rush hour period. So it's no surprise they got the higher rating. Meanwhile, the N/R are both schedule to come every 7.5 minutes, the B: 8.5 minutes, and the M: 9 minutes. It's no wonder these lines didn't do as well in the study.
Why is the N line schedule to come only 7.5 minutes? And how can more service be added? I have written to the Transit Authorities plenty of times about this matter, but my concerns were ignored.
N Broadway Line (LOCAL)
I agree with you 100%.
Both the N and R trains should run every 5-6 minutes at rush-hour, if you ask me.
When I lived in Astoria, I was lucky enough to live at Ditmars, so I always got a seat. But coming home, I soon realized that getting on the N at 59th/Lex was a problem. So I started walking back to 5th ave. just to be able to get on the train.
The R is not nearly as bad as the N. In fact, it's rare that the R train is so crowded N/B at rush-hour, that you can't enter the train.
I can't say the same for the N.
"Both the N and R trains should run every 5-6 minutes at rush-hour, if you ask me."
"The R is not nearly as bad as the N. In fact, it's rare that the R train is so crowded N/B at rush-hour, that you can't enter the train."
So the N should be schedule every 5 minutes while the R should be schedule every 8 minutes to be fair.
N bwy
Division B "CAR SHORTAGE".
I keep hearing about this B division shortage. What is the TA doing to deal with this shortage. Are there any new B division cars on order. I know there are the 143's but those I hear are supposed to be on the L like exclusively. Are there any other car orders or options in dealing with this car shortage?
I'm assuming that many R42s from the L would go to the rest of the lines, possibly the N and R
Once the R143's are accepted, it will free up the 40's (4*'s) from the L to go to the rest of the Division. The next Div. B car order is in the works as well but they had to get rid of the rustbirds first and fore most.
With the bridge flip flop and new V service is tighting the belt too.
>>I'm assuming that many R42s from the L would go to the rest of the lines, possibly the N and R<<
Most likely the N. R68s from the N will go to the G for Jamaica to get freed up, so why not.
I doubt the R-42s will leave the Eastern Division. The MTA likes to keep variety down and consolidate the fleet. Most likely, R-40 slants and Ms will be sent to CI.
East Brooklyn can't take 75 foot cars, in fact I don't even think they bothered ever signing them up for East Brooklyn usage.
NO the TA didnt bother making the Eastern division lines 75ft car ready. nor did they care to. they had plenty of oppertunity through out the capitol improvement plans for years.
You both said the same thing, yet your post is in a disagreeing tone with New Flyer #857. And what he said has nothing to do with the post he responded to (the R-160 is 60', don't ya know).
The Eastern division can handle 75' cars. They won't snap in half or fall off the tracks. The problem is, two trains of 75' cars can't pass each other on some sharp turns or there will be lots of scraping. Proof of this is in the R-46 fantrip to Metropolitan on the M that was mentioned a while ago.
>>The MTA likes to keep variety down and consolidate the fleet. Most likely, R-40 slants and Ms will be sent to CI.<<
First off, there are no R-40M's in Coney. Second, if they're sending R-40M's they're sending R-42's, because the TA treats them as if they're the same. I'm led to believe that all R-40 Slants will go to Coney Island And a number of R-42's will go as well, as all R-40M's are on the J/Z,and M lines (I think).
The G will get R-68's from the N. That's like 4/10 of N service. So the N will probably get these cars. I don't think that the V will need 26 trainsets, so the R-143 will free up a number of cars that can be posted elsewhere.
Your plan:
ENY: 40 42 143
CI : 40 42
My plan:
ENY: 42 143
CI : 40
Who's plan consolidates better? Please note, there are only 100 R-40Ms, all based out of ENY. It would be very easy to move them all to Coney Island, with exception to one.
All the R-42s are getting door enabler systems. The R-40ms aren't. This suggests that the plan is to separate the two, as already they are trying to consolidate the cars with the enablers into solid trainsets, as they are useless in mixed trainsets. Also, door enablers are really designed to prevent the C/R from opening up on the wrong side on an el, and the only els with CI cars are Astoria and West End.
With possible exception to that mixed pair I doubt any R-42s will end up in CI.
So I'm assuming that this would happen before 2004 therefore, both Qs will have all R40 Slants, both lcl and exp?
The N, Q, Q, and W will probably all be seen with R-40s. Why?
N and W have the same terminals at both ends: Think 2 and 5.
Q and Q both have same terminal at north end: Think #7 at Times Sq when a train has been taken OOS, to preserve the alternation they will resign all subsequent trains. Similarly, trains that would have been on the Q local may end up on the express and vice versa.
Come to think of it, this will probably happen even before any car swaps!
well all that sounds good but
the #2 and#5 don't run all that great at all times
i think that r46s should be on the n,Q and w
It doesn't matter how the 2 and 5 run, I was referring to the fact that often 2s become 5s and vice versa. I predict similar will happen with the W and N.
R-46s will never leave Jamaica yard. We'll keep them until they die. No other shop has had day-to-day experience with them in the past 10 years. The R-32s may be shipped out at some point, with R-160s taking their place, but that's it for any changes in Jamaica's fleet.
well your right.oh yeah whats with the r160s
My predictions for the R-160:
1. They will be nearly identical to the 143.
2. The car numbers will pick up from where the 143 leaves off.
3. They will go to Jamaica, 207, Pitkin, and Coney Island yards. As the appropriate car classes are scrapped, R-32s will leave the mainlines and flood the Eastern Division. With exception to the C and Q, there will be no R-32s left on the mainlines.
4. The R-44 will not be replaced by the 160, Someone pointed out the math problem in that. A few R-44s may be scrapped, but not the whole fleet.
>>1. They will be nearly identical to the 143.<<
That's a pretty good synopsis. But, I'd like a return to Big colored bulkhead signs, not LED's on the front.
>>3. They will go to Jamaica, 207, Pitkin, and Coney Island yards. As the appropriate car classes are scrapped, R-32s will leave the mainlines and flood the Eastern Division. With exception to the C and Q, there will be no R-32s left on the mainlines.<<
Presently, Pitkin operates the R-44 A trains and the R-32 C trains. Unless there is a fleet switch, Pitkin recieves no R-160's.
>>The R-44 will not be replaced by the 160, Someone pointed out the math problem in that. A few R-44s may be scrapped, but not the whole fleet.<<
That was a point that a few people brought up. What I'm even more concerned about is that only 607 cars from the specified classes will be replaced. So before the R-44 goes anywhere, the rest of the R-40 thru R-42 class must be replaced.
Pitkin has R-32s, 38s, and 44s. Same with 207. There are more obvious proofs, but here is how I know for sure Pitkin has R-38s:
The first two weeks of February, 2000, the E was extended to Euclid ave as a result of switch replacement at WTC. The C was eliminated. Pitkin yard was assigned the E, so lots of R-32s out of Pitkin were seen on the E. One train of R-38s made an appearance on the Queens Blvd line on the first and last day of the G.O. During the middle of the G.O., there were several R-38 / R-32 mixes roaming about.
207st supplied several trains of R-38s to the B line as well.
No. Pitkin-R32, R44. 207 Street-R32, R38. Your R38 proof doesn't work out. There were R38s on the B during that time. Does that mean R38s are also shopped at Coney Island and Concourse. No. The C Line's car were scattered to the lines that replaced it. The cars and shops listed above are just where the cars are shopped. In reality, they may be laid up at both. Which is why trains may be mixed as the Yardmaster dude sees fit.
I don't recall saying they were shopped there, just that they were there. I was careful about that.
But in the original post I carelessly did mention Pitkin, I now see my error.
I don't get how / why R-44s aren't shopped at 207. But I guess they ain't.
It's a thing with not wanting to have parts for the R44 at BOTH 207 Street and Pitkin Yard. That'd ease up maintainence to some degree.
As statedon the MTA's own web site, most 0f the R160 cars are going to the ENY yard for the J/M/Z lines with the rest going to Pitkins and CONEY ISLAND.Guess that means the A/C and what ever lines[N,Q or F]will be getting them,but Eastern division lines WILL be getting them ,so keep your R32'S.
But that goes against tradition, Eastern Division and the C line are always the last stand for the oldest equipment in the system.
You said a mouthful.For every new car that the TA recieved[IND/BMT],the most likly route they would go to was the E/F or basically the Jamaica yard.R38,R40S,R40M cars all went to the Queens Blvd lines FIRST,with exception of a few[mod R40 going to the LL,and some 38's running on the N].The 42's had to be spread thruout the system because of the air conditioning,but after that, nothing.The 27/30/30a/32 and 32a cars wouldnt get over to the Eastern division until 1967,with only the 27/30 cars pressed into regular service to replace the R16's.The 32 only did rush hour runs on the QJ and once and awhile runs on the KK,BUT NEVER ON THE M OR L.So you are quite correct about these lines and the status they carry. Even though they can operate the 75ft cars over there,the fear of a ''side swipe with these cars prevents them.So with the advent of the 143/160 cars,its only natural that they be placed over there. PLUS they said so,too...
The R68s and R68As went to Concourse and Coney Island first. R110B was on the A and C. But they did make their way to Jamaica Yard for a visit before.
The R46's have been at Jamaica yard for 25 years[since 1975]
Why does the N have to lose the R68s? Can't we get any new cars? :(
EEEEEWWW! R42s on N and R?!
The R143s and R160s.
As is well known, the mezzanine at Jay Street/Boro Hall on the A/C/F lines was once much larger than it is today. Much of the mezzanine has long been closed off and rebuilt for storage and crew use. These areas have not, for the most part, been updated along with the rest of the station. But sometimes, when a door to one of the storage areas is open, one can see some very interesting artifacts from years past.
While coming up the stairs from the platform at Jay Street/Boro Hall today, I noticed an open door to one of the storage areas, and a TA worker measuring the door frame. Directly behind the worker was a wall and on that wall was a classic "Tareyton - I'd Rather Fight Than Switch" poster, complete with a smiling blonde with black eye! I haven't seen one of those ads since the '70s. I pointed the ad out to the worker and he told me that there are some much older ads in various parts of the subway.
Anyone know of any others?
There's a 1995 ad on the staircase to Lower Bergen.
Here's a future one: There is an ad for the move Blow in 67th ave station's new permanant storage areas on the mezzanine. I doubt that ad will ever be changed again.
Does the R110b @207 street still operate? If it does what lines and when does it operate on? I road that train on the "A" line about 3 years ago. I have been searching for it again ever since. Does anyone know what the plans are for this trainset?
These cars were operating in a 6 Car train on the (C) for a little while because the last 3 cars were in a fire and then cannabalized. Now the TA is rebuilding the last 3 cars and the R-110B is slated to return to life on the (A) line. Date of return is unknown!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
If the r110b was tested on the A line, how come the L line is getting the r-143? Shouldn't the A, C, and E lines recieve them in order to replace the R-32's. I think that these trains are a bit older than the R-42's.
Age dosent matter- the 32s are in much better shape than the 42s
From what I've heard the R40's are next to go. Since only the sides are stainless steel, they suffer from rot and rust much like the redbirds on the IRT. The R32's are all stainless steel, and are holding up much better. I heard something to the effect that the R32's might go through another rebuild which may or may not include AC traction motors. In any case, the R143 order will not be replacing any cars and will be an addition to the fleet only. The L line was chosen due to it's relative isolation from the rest of the system, plus the fact that it has a relatively dedicated fleet of rolling stock assigned to it.
This is from the best of my memory, so perhaps I do not have all the correct information, but all this seems to make sense to me.
Shawn.
From what I understand,the R143 car will go to the 14th street line with a few going to the M. Genrealy the Eastern division lines share all their cars with the exception of the R40's running on the L and sometimes M. Now,it's okay that the J will not receive any new cars..well maybe a few might trickle over,but with the advent of the R160 and from the TA's own website stating they will based in ENY,the J/Z will have new cars soon enough.
The L is getting the R-143s because those will be the first trains able to handle the new computerized signal system the MTA is installing. Since the L is the only "stand alone" line on the B Division other than the Franklin Shuttle, it was decided to test the new system and the new trains there first.
The last time the L, or any other Eastern Division line, got a whole fleet of brand new cars was 47 years ago, so it really is about time the people over there were given something other than the rest of the B Division's hand-me-downs to ride (other than those few R-40M/R-42 cars in 1969). Supposedly, some of the extra R-143 trains that don't run on the L will be used for service on the M, so a handful will make it to DeKalb and on the West End line during rush hours.
Want to start OPTO on the M on weekends.
The R-32s will be around until 2015. They're in better shape than the R-38,40, and 42, which will be gone by '07.
Most likey the R38's will go first.they are in the worst shape[leak/rot in the roof]as well as the R40 same roof problem and front end bonnet weakness. The R42 will go too.They suffer the same problems the '40's do. Their breakdown rate is the worst in the system next to the 44's.
The R110A will not return to the A line or any line which runs 10/60'cars or 8/75' cars. On full length (600' trains) the conductor is stationed in the middle of the train, so he/she has a 300' view on either side. System Safety has determined that the distance will be no longer than 300' on each side. Since the conductor position on the R110B is set up 6 cars on one side and 3 cars on the other side, this turns out to be 402' on one side and 201' on the other side. When and where will these cars reappear? It is anybody's guess! They haven't been out on the road for at least 6 months!
Which explains why I see those blue R110 boards in the stations on the 8th Avenue line.....
The A, C, and D Lines.
They can't return to the C, either. The C/R used the rear cab on it's northbound trip...
Here are some possible locations:
Rockaways shuttle, 3 3 car trains.
G, one 6 car train with 3 spare.
C, one 6 car train with 3 spare.
6th avenue (S) shuttle, one 6 car train with 3 spare. Moves to one of the above once V is initiated.
The Broad St. Subway, Philadelphia PA. 3 3 car Broad-Ridge spur trains (which means all of 'em), or 6 car train to be used on the main line during rush hours or on special expresses to Pattison only.
PATCO - 3 cars off-peak, 6 peak.
Anyone know when the 5 is scheduled to start receiving the R142s?
The (5) line will see R-142 life supposidly after the (2) line is full R-142. However on two occassions, I saw a set of R-142s on the (5) line, with no auto annoucements and the other time I was @ Astor Place and a set of R-142As flew by northbound on the (5).
IIRC the R-142 set that ran the (5) that day was 6311-6320 (After the Subway Series) and the R-142A set was 7231-7240. Was it a test, I have no clue, but both times I screamed on the platform in excitement.
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Hopefully soon.the 5 has a mixed caravan of trains now.I spotted a R-62A via 1/9, A R62A Pelham train a R-36WF train.Lately I've seen some R-33's from the 2 line those with the black stickers under the numbers, 8800's series I guess we will see the 9000-9100 series shortly.
The cars in the 8800's always seem to run with one another. Sometimes, I would see a train, and the first two digits on each car's number were "88."
[6311-6320]
I saw that set today in service on the (2) line. The Redbirds outlasted the R142's in one respect: all 11 still have the Subway Series decorations, while just a couple of team logos are on the R142's.
I'm old enough to remember 1967....the powers that be telling us that the new service on the Brighton line to go up Sixth Avenue rather than Broadway was in our best interests and would enable them to make use of the underutilized Sixth Avenue tracks. It also allowed them to open up the Express tracks from W 4 St to 34 Street on Sixth Avenue. Once this is done you won't want to go back said the TA despite the protests of many people. For a while, they continued a service on the Brighton line up Broadway but eventually abandoned that too.
Now, of course, look what we're getting. The Brighton line will be going up Broadway and the life line of the Brighton line up Sixth Avenue (you know to get to Yankee Stadium for example) is being severed. No more express service on Sixth Avenue between W 4 and 34 St. This is to your advantage the MTA is trying to tell us.....guess we threw away millions of dollars for Christie Street.
I don't think anyone is saying the removal of 6th Avenue/Brighton Service is in anyone's best interest; it is just with the closure of the northside MannyB tracks, there is no other option. In 2004 (or later) we will supposidly get both sides of the bridge open and more options will be back in service
Well, what would you prefer?? The possibility of a portion of the north side of the MB falling into the East River just so you can have your direct service to the Stadium?
Repair of the MB is in everyone's best interest.
I asked this several weeks ago but we seem to have several new posters here so I'm gonna ask again if thats OK. The answers I got earlier were great so I'm hoping for more of the same.
I'm traveling to NYC for a weekend of railfanning in the MTA July 20-22nd. What sites must I be sure to see?
Prior responses were: City Hall loop via terminating 6, moving platforms/water sprayers at South Ferry, Smith/9th St station for view of system/city, 191 St for deepness, Dekalb avenue for business/frequency of trains, Roosevelt Avenue for prettiest new station, Longest tube between 1st and bedford, abandoned stations like Worth street, entire run of A to far Rockaway on R-38.
Any new suggestions from you subway gurus?
Thanks so much
JR, Atlanta
Roosevelt Avenue for prettiest new station,
Make sure you get this right: Roosevelt Ave. is one of the ugliest and dirtiest stations in the system, it is an express stop on the Queens Boulevard line and it connects to the 7 train as well as several buses.
Roosevelt Island is a brand new station on the 63rd St. line which is gorgeous. You should definitely see it. On the 22nd you can see it via the brand new 6th Ave. shuttle.
Also, July 22nd will be the day they do the Manhattan Bridge service switch--you can be one of the first people to do a Broadway Exp-Bridge run in a decade. Definitely worth it. You also get to see thousands of pax going out of their head, clueless as to why they wait and wait and wait but there don't seem to be any B trains at Grand St.
Dan
No, on July 22, Roosevelt Island is scheduled to be served by the R, per GO.
The official brochure lists the shuttle as running weekdays only. Evening and weekend service is presumably by GO.
Allow me to respectfully disagree with your assessment of Roosevelt Island. I don't think it's anything special. Nor is it brand new.
I don't think it's anything special. Nor is it brand new.
Sure it's not brand new, but can you think of any other station in the system that looks like it? It's unique and fresh and I think it's a nice change of pace.
Dan
It's different, no question about it, and if you like it, enjoy. I prefer the older styles -- particularly the 1904 IRT (including City Hall, which I passed through today on a funky Redbird) and parts of the BMT (the Canarsie line tilework is just stunning). But the variety itself is a big plus, and I've got to give credit to Roosevelt Island for that.
I think you mean Roosevelt Island as prettiest new station....I'm not sure if there is a Roosevelt Avenue station.
In fact, all the stations along that 63rd street tunnel are pretty nice, i.e. 21 St-Queensbridge.
It's not very railfan-ish but the F train coney-island-bound through brookyln gives some nice views of the area, neighborhoods, skyline, etc. and of all the sites at Coney island towards the end.....then get on a B (or a W) and head back towards manhattan for some more scenery.
-Alan Scott
On Sunday, take a Q over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge and up the Broadway Express; visit Pacific St in Brooklyn and 34 St/6 Ave in Manhattan to watch the mass confusion as people find out that their trains don't go to the places they used to.
Take the Staten Island Ferry and ride the SIR from end to end.
You could try checking out Joe Brennan's bible on disused and abandoned stations & see for yourself some of the provisions made for unbuilt subway lines (2nd Ave & E. Bwy on the F come to mind...)
The 22nd is the day they switch over the Manhattan Bridge service...you could ride on one of the first revenue trains in regular service on the south-side tracks of the span in over 11 years (watch for the abandoned Myrtle Ave. station from trains northbound out of DeKalb Ave.)
As a corollary to the above paragraph...if you do the Manny-b thing, you would also have the opportunity to ride on the Brighton line, which is unusal in that it goes from being a subway to running in an open cut to an elevated line in relatively short order.
If I think of anything else, I'll be sure and post it...
=Rednoise
Newkirk Ave/Brighton
"you would also have the opportunity to ride on the Brighton line, which is unusal in that it goes from being a subway to running in an open cut to an elevated line in relatively short order."
I dunno if I'd ever actually call the Brighton an elevated, except for way down towards Coney Island. If it is, it's definitely not elevated in the sense that the West End is, or the Culver, where you can actually along under the train line's length.
For a VERY quick transition from underground->surface->elevated, take the B, W, or rush hour M coney island-bound. It does it in 2 stations, 36th Street to Fort Hamilton Parkway, with the 9th Avenue station pretty much ground level.
-Alan Scott
Is the transit museum worth the time, if so how to get there via subway? Thanks
No subway service directly to the transit museum. But it's just a short walk from the Borough Hall station on the 4/5, 2/3, and M/N/R lines (furthest from the M/N/R platforms, very close to the 2/3 & 4/5).
When I was serving Jury Duty earlier this spring, I'd walk over at lunchtime a couple of times a week.
=Rednoise
Newkirk/Brighton
Oh, and yeah...I think the transit museum is great...especially if you've never seen it before.
=Rednoise
The Transit Museum BEATS a trip to Yawnkee Stadium....anyday!
The most interesting transitions are on the 1/9.
Standard cut-and-cover up to 122nd Street, where it suddenly pops up, runs over a viaduct (atop which is the 125th Street station), and buries itself again around 135th Street. South of 168th, the Washington Heights deep tunnel begins; it ends just south of the Dyckman Street station, where the line is suddenly elevated again. (What you're seeing more a change in elevation of the ground than of the tracks.)
I'll add a fews words on that line ....
From 96th Street take the local uptown & notice the underground yard (now in disuse) between 137th & 145th. Get off at 168th, walk over the line & take the elevator up to the A train. The West Side express train going downtown has a long run from 125th to 59th. Notice the extra platform at 59th. Many of the museum tours start here.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T:
137th Street yard is pretty much in use. Trains are stored there every day.
And don't forget the "A" to Far Rockaway over Jamaca Bay, I think it was mentioned before, but it is really a nice ride.....
Piggo
hi - i am also a jr from atlanta - marietta actually.
recommend that you take the j throught the nassau loop to see some of the most rundown stations on the system. continue on the j over the williamsburgh bridge and the broadway el. look for the places where the old lexington ave. and myrtle ave. els joined it. continue on to broadway junction and get off. amaze yourself with the massive complex where the broadway el, the el for the canarsie line and the remains of the old fulton el meet. take the L to the atlantic ave. stop to see a continuation of the complex. you will pass through some of the oldest neighborhoods in brooklyn. at broadway junction you can get the A to rockaway.
enjoy!
Being from Marietta I guess you ride MARTA occasionally. So boring compared to NYC isnt it?
i try to avoid marta. not much excitement except, from time to time, of the life threatening type. if you'd like to chat about where else to visit on the subway, let me know as i lived in nyc for my first 22 years.
john
You are here THIS IS THE BEST SUBWAY SITE
Given the terminology, you can also find yourself
"visiting Railfan" aboard any of our friendly redbirds.
Just step into the first car... and it will call to you.
The 7 train to Flushing and back is an interesting ride because of all the ethnically diverse neighborhoods it serves. Terrific views of Manhattan, too.
[The 7 train to Flushing and back is an interesting ride because of all the ethnically diverse neighborhoods it serves. Terrific views of Manhattan, too.]
A-N-D you get to ride one of those Red Birds.
Mr t__:^)
Must See!!:
-Any Krispy Kreme vendor
-Redbird Paradise at East 180th Station on the 2/5
-Peek into 207st. Yard (from uptown 1/9 platform)
where naked redbirds in "storage" can be seen.
-The view from a Slant Q
[The view from a Slant Q]
The ride on the "L" from Manhattan under the East River via a Slant 40 is one of the best you'll have. From the front window, if you're lucky you'll get a TO who pushes the grade timers to the limit.
Mr t__:^)
[The ride on the "L" from Manhattan]
Hmm.. think I'll try this sometime...
sounds like I have better chances at
seeing this trip, than finding a
Corn Dog vendor in the city... hehehe :)
Maybe I missed it, but you must get to Stillwell Ave / Coney Island and take in the scenes while mnching on hot dogs at Nathans! The station as you see it now will not be that way for long.
--Mark
I know Chicago people follow this board. On Tuesday afternoon, I rode an Evanston express with 3457-3458 in the consist mixed with other 2500 or 2600's. What was starnge is that one of those cars is really a 3200-type with corrugated stainless below the window, the other is smooth-sided like other Budd cars of the early 1980's. What's the story ?
While I was in 7361 going downtown today on the 6, I saw a redbird at 68st, the only number I was able to catch was 8602, as the rear car...
Redbirds haven't been shot down, bah!
There are at least 3 full sets operational on the #6 at the moment.
YES ! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....
I saw the R-36WF this evening and another redbird also, but also more and more R-142A's and the R-142's are more frequent on the 2 line it looks like the demise of the redbirds is here.
Can anyone pick which line the last redbird will be scrapped from?
It would either be the 2, 5, or 7.
That's easy, the 7
Peace,
ANDEE
I wouldn't call the 7 last line to have redbirds just yet. If R 62s come to it fast, they may give away some of their redbirds to other lines to live the end of their lives there and if they're good cars, the 7 may not have the last redbird.
Maybe... maybe not. I saw a train of redbirds on the (5) line at 3rd Avenue, and one of the cars was signed (7) Flushing Local. Maybe it was wishful thinking on the part of the car, or maybe someone forgot to put it back to (5)...
What about the 4?
The 4 currently runs all of the R-62's and a handful of Redbirds to round out the fleet. When the Redbirds are retired, what will take their place? Will the 4 run some R-62's and some R-62A's, or will it get some of the R-142's or R-142A's?
In any case, seeing that there aren't many Redbirds on the 4 to begin with, and nothing is being added to its fleet right now (unlike the 2 and 6), I wouldn't be surprised if its Redbirds stay on until the very end.
According to the NY Division of the ERA Bulletin, July 2001 edition, the latest projection of IRT car assignments after all 1,550 R-142/R-142As are delivered is:
1/9 340 R-62A
2 370 R-142
3 290 R-142
4 315 R-62, 70 R-62A singles, 40 R-142A
5 370 R-142
6 480 R-142A
7 414 R-62A (including 44 singles)
S 10 R-62A singles from #4
[As an aside, a large number of questions posed on SubTalk are answered every month in the NYD ERA Bulletin -- for example -- "What are they doing on the such-and-such track that requires a GO?" Another great reason to belong! For info, write NYD/ERA, P.O. Box 3001, NY, NY 10008-3001.]
How can the 3 run R-142's? The R-142's are bundled in quintuples (or so I thought) and the 3 can't run trains longer than nine cars. (Is the 3 going to run five-car train sets? Nah, that's an outrageous suggestion.)
I'll miss the variety on the 5 and 6. If this goes through, the only IRT line with any variety whatsoever will be the 4. It and the shuttle (and maybe the 7) will also be the only lines with railfan windows. Guess I'd better get that 2/3 express run out of my system soon.
Five-car sets already do run on the 3 train. Usually it runs trains with nine still-single R62As. But occasionally you'll find a train with a five-car set coupled to four singles.
I know. But how will the 3 run R-142's? Will the R-142's have any singles?
R-142s are able to be set up in 4 - 5 or 6 cars units. so the 3 would be one 4 car unit and one 5 car unit.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, the #3 would be one 5-car unit and ANOTHER 5-car unit. I love it when rumors perpetuate themselves...the #3 is capable of handling 10-car trains. SOME of the layup tracks in 148th Street (Lenox) Yard can only handle 9-car trains...but who says all the layups on the northern end of the line have to be at 148th Street Yard?
There is indeed a plan to operate 10-car #3 trains once enough cars are available to do so. This is not rumor, this is not speculation...it is fact.
David
Whatever.
Peace,
ANDEE
There are enough cars now to handle ten-car 3 service. (There are more cars in service now than there will be once this process is complete.) Why not start now?
There are other service enhancements on the way that take precedence over the provision of 10-car #3 trains. Once they have been accounted for, the #3 will go to 10 cars.
David
why are the # trains only 8 cars. can they have more sets like that
They are all 10 except the 7 during winter and 3. The 7 has 11 during winter. The 3 line has 9.
The 3 has 0 redbirds left on its fleet
Huh?
That's not new, it's been that way for a few years.
It's be stupid and dumb to deadhead trains to the south and have them start earlier to cover the line from the top by rush hour.
Whatever.
Peace,
ANDEE
I worked the platform at Grand Central yesterday and there was no R36's out on the 6. Only the R29 redbirds was out including everyone's favorite: 8660. (R62A and R142A's was out as well.)
Judging from what happened on the 2 today, they may need to send the R-36 consist over to the East 180th St. yard for a few days as a fill-in before shipping it off to either the Flushing Line or the scrap line.
Some of London's Tube lines were built 10 years or so before the IRT opened. Most of the underground tube stations look the same. Doesn't the abandoned City Hall station resemble a Tube station?
(ch01.jpg)
(bak edgwarerd03.jpg)
Some do (think 168th on the 1/9), but Parsons based most of the system's design on the shallower cut-and-cover Budapest, Hungary subway system, since he assumed it would be easier to get people to and from the streets that way, compared with the deeper London tubes. Asa result, almost all the original stations are close to the surface. Stations more than two levels underground, like City Hall (2 1/2 levels down, I believe) and the section under Washington Heights got the rounded "London tube" style staation, which was also used a quarter century later by IND engineers on certain sections of their stations near the East River crossing tunnels.
1. How much is a Zone4 Weekly Pass cost?
2. Do the passes start sale every Wednesday until when?
1. Not sure exactly but SEPTA's website (septa.com) has the entire list of fares.
2. Weeklies usually go on sale the Wednesday before the week. Passes run Mon-Sun so, theoretically, one can still purchase the weekly on Monday of the valid week.
There is talk of reviving the old LIRR ROW that leads from the Calverton Plant down to the main line. The trackage on the property is in fairly good shape. So are the railheads at the lone unprotected grade crossing But the ROW is overgrown with weeds and trees. The switch that connects the siding to the main line has been removed long ago. The plan was to use it as a storage track for LIRR museum pieces.
There is talk of reviving the old LIRR ROW that leads from the Calverton Plant down to the main line. The trackage on the property is in fairly good shape. So are the railheads at the lone unprotected grade crossing But the ROW is overgrown with weeds and trees. The switch that connects the siding to the main line has been removed long ago. The plan was to use it as a storage track for LIRR museum pieces.
It would be even better if the line could be used for freight service once again. The town of Riverhead, which owns the Calverton site, has been actively marketing it to industrial users; the process went slowly at first, but as far as I know there's been some recent progress. Most or all of the site tenants are light-industrial types that don't ship by rail, but there's certainly enough available space to attract a big industrial or warehouse tenant that might use rail. I've heard that one of the main obstacles to marketing the site is the lack of a sufficient labor pool so far east. A non-labor-intensive warehouse or distribution operation might find the site attractive, and hopefully they'd be a rail user.
There is an area I plan to explore while on vacation next month. I was riding the scoot back from Greenport and the engineer slowed to show me an abandoned line that ran north, I thing from just east of William Floyd pkwy. There is one old structure - either a coaling tower or a signal tower that has long ago fallen over and is now overgrown with vegitation. It seems like a good way to spend a day. The only drawback is I don't thik there is any vehicle access nearby.
There is an area I plan to explore while on vacation next month. I was riding the scoot back from Greenport and the engineer slowed to show me an abandoned line that ran north, I thing from just east of William Floyd pkwy. There is one old structure - either a coaling tower or a signal tower that has long ago fallen over and is now overgrown with vegitation. It seems like a good way to spend a day. The only drawback is I don't thik there is any vehicle access nearby.
It couldn't have been the spur to the Brookhaven Lab, could it? I had thought that the spur still saw infrequent use for freight.
/*It couldn't have been the spur to the Brookhaven Lab, could it? */
Well, visit it at night and see if it glows ;)
(though seriously, I know that radioactive stuff DOESN'T glow, except in issues where you have the materials under water and Chernkov (sp) effect (particles exceeding the speed of light) takes place. Real cool)
If "radioactive stuff DOESN'T glow," why was radium painted on watch dials all those years to make them glow in the dark?
It would be even better if the [Calverton] line could be used for freight service once again. The town of Riverhead, which owns the Calverton site, has been actively marketing it to industrial users; the process went slowly at first, but as far as I know there's been some recent progress. Most or all of the site tenants are light-industrial types that don't ship by rail, but there's certainly enough available space to attract a big industrial or warehouse tenant that might use rail. I've heard that one of the main obstacles to marketing the site is the lack of a sufficient labor pool so far east. A non-labor-intensive warehouse or distribution operation might find the site attractive, and hopefully they'd be a rail user.
I may have been engaging in a bit of wishful thinking. I was just looking at Riverhead's site touting the "Calverton Enterprise Park" and found nary a word about LIRR access.
According to the site, there are four industrial tenants at Calverton plus a parachuting school, with a total of about 200 employees. That's obviously far less than what Grumman had, but it's probably not too far off what you'd expect from a warehouse or distribution company with floor space equal to what's found at the various Calverton buildings (c. 750,000 square feet). This employment information is current as of last December, so things probably have changed since then, hopefully for the better.
It looks like a reopening of the old Republic station is not gonna happen. The argument is that the LIRR already has the Farmingdale and Pinelawn stations to the east. Would people be willing to use the station instead of their cars? When the plant closed in 1986, hardly anyone was using the station. If they do reopen it, the same thing may happen. NYSDOT may as well use the land to extend the runways for Republic Airport.
The question is service to people who would be likely to access the station from busy 6-lane Route 110 or from transportation (present or future) using Route 110.
Farmingdale station requires use of narrow crowded Hempstead Turnpike and local streets to reach mostly-full parking.
Pinelawn is closer, but is a part-time station in the middle of cemeteries. There is no room for parking.
The question is service to people who would be likely to access the station from busy 6-lane Route 110 or from transportation (present or future) using Route 110.
Farmingdale station requires use of narrow crowded Hempstead Turnpike and local streets to reach mostly-full parking.
Pinelawn is closer, but is a part-time station in the middle of cemeteries. There is no room for parking.
I'm a bit confused ... from what I understood, the idea was not to reopen Republic station to serve people commuting to Penn Station. It instead was proposed to serve people working along the Route 110 corridor - (a) reverse commuters from the city and Nassau, and (b) local riders from stations farther east in Suffolk. They'd transfer to and from buses or maybe even a future light rail line at Republic to reach their workplaces along 110.
Is that the idea?
Yes since there is vey little residential development nearby. Doubtful that people from Dix Hills would drive there when they have Wyandanch and Deer Park Stations and people west of there have Farmingdale and Bethpage and won't first drive east in the AM to take a W/B train.
TransiTALK is throwing its 2nd Annual Bus & Subway Fan Trip, All are welcomed.
Right now we are working on a plan to visit either the Jackie Gleason or Manhattanville Bus Depot's for a Lesson on Alternative Fuel Technology and how Alternative Fuel Depots operate. Other part of the trip will include photo stops along the Broadway Local (1) Train and a Lunch stop.
All interested may e-mail us at tlogan@transitalk.com for details or to RSVP.
A Full Itinerary will be available and post on the nycsubway.org field trip page within a week or so.
Regards
Trevor Logan aka T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
At East 180th on the old Dyre Avenue tracks, I keep seing these weird railcars that kind of look like houses. They look like they're shingled and have fancy windows. As far as I can tell, they have no doors, but I could be wrong. I've been seing them for years. Next time I go to 180th, I'll take my camera. Hopefully, one will be there. I will put it on the net, if so. What are they?
My Site
You sure they're not buildings built onto the tracks?
That is what they are: Buildings placed on the trackbed.
David. Thanks for adding the feature that lets you display only certain posts. It makes it MUCH easier to find old stuff I've posted. The job you've done on subtalk lately is unreal. Keep up the good work.
Thanks! :)
Is this an intentional feature?: When I used the threaded search by handle it revealed all responses to the posts by the handle. I don't remember it doing that way back when you had it before, but I must say it's quite useful in figuring out who responded to my posts in the last few days...
Yes, that was how it worked back then.
Hmm I fixed that bug in the archives cgi but not in the "production" one. You guys like it the way it is? I thought it was annoying to limit your search by Poster and see other people's posts if you were in threaded mode but not see them in chrono mode.
Just goes to show that one man's bug is another man's feature.
Don't change it! We can just as easily switch to chrono mode if we want only one poster, but if you remove this feature it will be impossible to see the responses without clicking on every message.
If we're looking for a specific message by a poster and he posted several times in the same thread, we'd have to click on every post that has that subject. By knowing the responses and the future subject line changes, we can more easily pinpoint which part of the thread we're looking at.
Just add some instructions on this "feature" on the reconfigure page and we'll be set.
Okay, familiarization is supposed to do two things: to get T/Os used to the line, and to teach them the appropriate lineups. The first thing is covered, but does anyone realize what they're not doing?
They're not going through DeKalb's bridge tracks, only the bypass! And on day one, how many trains will be using the bypass? NONE! They'll all be using the platform! Why is this significant? Well, northbound you do have to take a bottom yellow at the same spot. But southbound, there are two possible ways of switching trains to the DeKalb station track. They can get to it immediately after crossing the bridge, or they can continue along the main track until it splits, allowing acces to both the bypass and the station. Unless the T/Os were told about this, they probably will get confused if on their second trip through, the route they take is different from the first.
That was all pointed out to us during familiarization. They also issued a track map showing the area. It's a bit complicated to read, but after a run or two, it'll be a piece of cake.
Well, that's certainly good to know, one less thing to worry about on the big day...
In other words, expect utter chaos that morning. =)
That was all pointed out to us during familiarization. They also issued a track map showing the area. It's a bit complicated to read, but after a run or two, it'll be a piece of cake.
Follow This Link for a closeup page from my trackbook depicting the layout at DeKalb and on either side.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
We know! During our training, the students were told what you just posted!
Zman- can you scan the map and send it to us on subtalk?
Tell you what. I'll scan it to your e-mail address, and you can put it up on SubTalk since I do not know how to do it.
Thanks! I do not know how wither but will forward to to our illustrious webmaster and to Peter D- author of the track map book.
[And on day one, how many trains will be using the bypass? NONE! They'll all be using the platform!]
It's true that on day one there will be no trains using the bypass, because it's a Sunday. On day 2, (W) trains will be using the bypass, just like (B) trains do today, except the (W)'s will be going over the south side.
That's what I implied.
>>But southbound, there are two possible ways of switching trains to the DeKalb station track. They can get to it immediately after crossing the bridge, or they can continue along the main track until it splits, allowing acces to both the bypass and the station.<<
Yeah, that brings a question to my mind. That whole 2 different routes thing was not a part of the original track workings. So, why was it built? And does it matter which one you take, so long as you get on the right track?
Hey i was wondering if R143 Training started yet.....
No not yet. We'll let you know when it starts.
It was at Pitkin last week and a group of us wanted to get on and we weren't allowed. It sounds crazy but I believe they have somebody on the train 24/7. Technicians have all their equipment on board and don't want anybody touching a thing. A friend climbed on board in the middle of the night and woke somebody up who was sleeping on board.
Maybe they were testing the train to see how the vagrants will like it during the winter :-)
They will like that bench seating. They have 2 BCO's per car which is weird. I was on one at 207st yard.
Yes these 10 cars that were running on the 5 line are now back home where they belong. Welcome back you were missed.
They're back to get scrapped a few weeks from now-lol.
Why couldn't the other R36s come here from the other lines?
R36#9766Gary
IIRC 9760-9769 were the last cars of the WF livery.
It's been out of commission for a while, and whatever work is being done had better be completed by July 23rd. Otherwise, there will be no place to store R trains during middays. Currently they use the Broadway express, after being evicted from the Lower Level several months ago for repairs.
>>Otherwise, there will be no place to store R trains during middays.<<
Yeah, they also used to store some short-turn N trains there, what happened to them?
Those are also stored on the Broadway express, sometimes behind the wall at Lex / 63rd.
The former schedule for lower CH:
Evenings, Nights, Weekends: N
Middays: R
The current schedule for Lex layup:
Evenings, Nights, Weekends: N
Middays: Q
They still can (and do) hold two trains in the leads to the LL of CH, but this cripples their short-turning capacity (this was vital during the collapse at Prince st Sunday, I think they moved a train out of the way to get things going).
If worse comes to worse they could store two trains on the "express" tracks at Canal st local station. But they like to keep this area clear if a train has to come out of lower CH (or off the leads) and head downtown. It avoids wrong-railing into the station.
I remember City Hall holding 6 trains. Canal St. middle will not hold a full length train and is pretty much useless except for holding work trains.
>>But they like to keep this area clear if a train has to come out of lower CH (or off the leads) and head downtown. It avoids wrong-railing into the station.<<
I've seen them take a train from CH LL onto the Downtown direction, and it wrong-railed into the station. They waited for an N to leave, a T/O pulled the train in, then when it was in, a T/O at the other end pulled out.
They never use Canal St. middle anymore. Certainly not for full length trains.
I saw R-26 Car No. 7750 last month on the 15th working the No. 2 line. Where did that car go if anyone knows. It is the lowest numbered "Redbird" (R-26) that was still in use.
BMTJeff
Too bad it was already retired with doors and windows removed.
Chaohwa
Correct. It's officially scrapped.
A moment of silence, for now the oldest car in the system that was still in active service is now on its way to the graveyard out in the Atlantic...
May the "Redbirds" rest in peace in Davy Jones' locker. I hope that some of them are preserved for historical purposes. BYE, BYE REDBIRDS!!
BMTJeff
Other significant numbers now retired are 8574/5, 9500/1, 9490/1, 8634/5, 8658/9, just arrived tonight
Yesterday I reviewed the slides I took last year. I looked at the slides of 9500/1 and 9490/1 with bright sunshine.
These shiny Redbirds. I miss them very much.
Chaohwa
An Addendum to the "Pleasant T/O" thread..
This evening whilst travelling from
149-GC to Atlantic Avenue, I came across
a T/O working the 2 line whom literally was
"whistling while (he) worked"... and his
tune (rivaling ANYTHING you may have heard
at Lincoln Center) was quite pleasant and
added rythym to the 96-72-42street "dash"..
...not to mention this fellow practically
"beat" the timers into submission by trotting
upto a GT at full gallop.. and TAPPING the brake
handle ONCE was all it took for the timers to give
green.. while in a station, this fellow
would peer out his window, looking both ways,
and when given indication, he would wrap it
around the SECOND the doors had shut... he
certainly made for an INTERESTING and
INSPIRATIONAL ride on the IRT Express..
Kinda like Harry Nugent... 'xcept without
words and without using the PA...
Cheers to this Jolly T/O!
Having once lived in Astoria, I can tell you that the N line does indeed have the least amount of elbow space.
Now, as a resident of Forest Hills, I would also have to agree with the somewhat low rating of the E and F trains. They deserve it.
The 7 is very overrated however. I don't understand why it always ranks so high.
Well it has dropped from 1.05 to .90. Possibly it's finally going down.
8800-8801 are sitting scraped inside CIY, there were two more inside the barn but I could not get there number. I had to get back to Stillwell Ave to do a trip after I layed up a Bad Order R68 that had intermitent stuck brakes. I ended up getting a drop trip becouse I got there late.
Robert
Is there any rhyme or reason as to which Redbirds get cut up at this point ?
Yes, the ones in the worst conditions are the first to go.
That says it all. These two were very badly rusted on the side.
Robert
The following is the test schedule for the NYCTA for 2002:
BUS OPERATOR: Open & Promotional. Filing period January 2-22, 2002. Test on April 13, 2002.
TOWER OPERATOR: Promotional only. Filing period *******NOW through July 31, 2001.******* Test on October 20, 2001. The link on the Nyc/Dcas website is down, so you'll have to go to 18 Washington St for the application.
TRACK WORKER: Open & Promotional. Filing period February 6-26, 2002. Test on June 29, 2002.
From the titles of Bus Operator and Track Worker, you can take the promotional exams for Conductor, Train Operator and other titles with as little as one day on the job.
Sorry, but there are no tests scheduled in 2002 for Conductor, Train Operator, Cleaner, Property Protection, Station Agent, Dispatcher or Train Service Supervisor.
Tests are also available for the following maintenance titles:
Bus Maintainer Group B, Car Inspector, Car Maintainer Group B, Electronic Equipment Maintainer (Prom), Light Maintainer,
Maintenance Supervisor for the following areas: Car Equipment, Power, Signals, Structures Groups D,E and G, Telephones, Track, Ventilation & Drainage.
Power Distribution Maintainer, Power Maintainer Group B, Radio Repair Mechanic, Revenue Equipment Maintainer, Signal Maintainer, Telephone Maintainer and Property Protection Supv.
E-mail me for the dates for these tests.
Are there any study guides for these exams or are you on your own?
You can buy a Study guide at the Civil service book store on Worth St.
Where on worth street is the bookstore?
89 Worth Street
I could've sworn that the Conductor exam was coming up pretty soon. This is what was said by a fellow subtalker.
The Tower Operator Onfor is now working on the DCAS website.
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcas/pdf/ptoweroperator.pdf
Is there a place (online) where I can get a summary of the changes taking place on the 22nd? Are there any updated track maps yet? Also, when did the Queensbridge line get extended eastward and are there any track maps for that yet?
Thanks in advance.
HERE'S
the link
Peace,
ANDEE
Updated Track Maps??
The tracks have been there for years, no need to change the track maps. You mean service maps??
Looking at the Queensbridge tracks they end at the east end of the station (http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smqueens.gif) yet the following service advisory (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/28-896_01.pdf) shows the tracks continuing on. Which is correct?
More unknown trackage/secret stations???
Look at this blowup of the track map, paying special attention to the copyright date of 1996 and the note about track realignment at Queens Plaza. In 1997, I walked through the newly-completed tunnels, which had no track laid. The track now connects to the Queens Blvd line and is in use.
The track maps have been revised in print form (Tracks of the New York City Subway by Peter Dougherty) and can be ordered from www.nyctrackbook.com or purchased at the Transit Museum store; see the Online Maps section of that site for information on updates of the online version.
So the 6th Av. shuttle line will run from 21 St. - Queensbridge to Broadway - Lafayette serving all local 6th Av. stops.
(Correction pending).
Where will the F train run in Queens?
When all Manhattan and Bronx bound B and D trains terminate at 34 St.-
then W,Q,F,and the 6th Av. shuttle trains will run to/from West 4 St. on weekdays and the Q,F, and the S huttle train at West 4. only on weekends?
Will the express 'dash' between West 4 and 34 St be discontinued or used by the W or the Q trains?
Preferably an expert on the Manhattan Bridge Service Diversion can answer these questions best and also provide some background information also.
Thanks..
: )
Railfan Pete.
The W and Q Trains will run on the Broadway Line. They won't run on 6 Avenue. The only ones on 6 Avenue will be the B,D,F, and Shuttle. I'm guessing the dash will be used for storage layups.
F train is completely unchanged. The dash will become 100% unused, just like the current Broadway Express. The W and Q will run on Broadway and not 6th ave, thus their yellow color.
If you really want more information and live in NYC, you can watch Transit Transit, on Channel 25 right now (Saturdays at 3:30 PM).
It's on Queens Public Access ch 56 every Thursday at 10 PM.
It's on Sunday at 3:PM on some Queens Public Access channel, possibly 34.
The track maps on this site have not been updated to reflect the 63rd Street Connection.
Thanks David, thought I was losing it.
Actually, as of today, the track maps HAVE been updated to show the 63rd St. Connection. Thanks to Peter Dougherty for the new maps.
Three cheers for Peter Dougherty!
Three cheers for Peter Dougherty!
Is that Three Cheers or Free Beers :-)
Yup, the new maps are up at the usual site (see my previous posting).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
What's the status of your print maps? Is that color foldup still on schedule for August?
What's the status of your print maps? Is that color foldup still on schedule for August?
Version 3.0 should be out around Labour Day, give or take a week--IF I can get some of the source material
that has been eluding me of late. It will have all the bridge-flip changes as well as the Nov. 11 service changes.
As for colour maps, no, I won't be able to include them in the next version, although I am hoping to make them
available on CD-ROM in PDF format later this year.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Hi guys,
I had planned on revising my online maps several times over the last few years but haven't had the opportunity to do so.
I'm currently working on the 3rd edition of my track map book (Labour Day is the targeted release date), and the file format I'm using might lend itself to colourization and hopefully, to being included on the site. There are some extremely real problems in this area, however, that require time to fix--time I simply can't devote to a free project right now. By "time," I mean something in the area of 250+ hours. At least.
Actually, if anybody wants to tackle this project in their spare time, and understands how to manipulate JPEGs in Photoshop or something similar, please drop me a line.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Check SUBWAYSURF's post.
The 63rd St Extension (from 6th/57th to 21 St in Queens) opened for service in 1989. Starting in 1995, the line was extensively rebuilt and extended under 41rst Avenue to a connection with the Queens Blvd. lines west of the 36th St station. This construction project was essentially complete as of 2000; service was to begin in August 2001 but was delayed due to modifications to the proposed service plan. The Connector, as you probably know, is now used intermittently by GO as the 53rd St and 60th St tunnels undergo repair. Full 63rd St service is expected Nov 2001.
When was 238St renamed Nereid Ave in the Wakefield section of the Bx?
1992ish ...
If you mean the station, Yes probaly around then. I always thought thought that they were actually 2 separate streets b/c I think it's the actual intersection where Mt St. Michael High School is located.
BTW The name is prononuced in two syllables-
The first rhymes with Fair and the second with deed.
(NaIR-eed)
The Nereids were 50 attendants of the Roman god of the seas, Neptune.
It's also the last moon of the planet Neptune.
[The Nereids were 50 attendants of the Roman god of the seas, Neptune.]
The Nereids weren't merely Neptune's attendants; they were also the mermaid daughters of Nereus (a minor water-god under Neptune's jurisdiction).
The question is, who would give a sea-oriented name to a street that's totally land-locked? (No, the Bronx River doesn't count.)
I believe that McNamara's "History in Asphalt" explains that a volunteer fire company with the name Nereid was located on that street. Firemen use water. "History in Asphalt" is a marvelous catalog of the origin of Bronx street names. The book is in libraries. I think a new edition is sold by The Bronx Historical Society on Bainbridge Avenue.
If possible, can you look this up for me:
What does it say for White Plains Road? The road turns east in Mount Vernon and becomes West 1st Street.
Thansk for that very enlightening info. I am requesting Dave add it to the page.
Are we talking about the street or the station?
The street. I know TA changed the station name not too long ago. Though the posts holding up the canopy still says 238. Also the station entrance says 238 as well.
Dave SR is on the phone with me and right now there is a major problem on the No.2 Line. The 3rd rail Protection board gave in and the 10:12 out of 241 an R142 the shoes went on top of the board. This is just North of Bronx Park East. The cars that have damage are 6587,6588. Also they are dischargeing the 10:20 241 St at Gun Hill to be used as a resque train.
the word is rescue (but I like resque).
Any idea as to the extent of the damage to the 2 cars?
The only cars with no damage are the first 2 cars. It also looks like they had problems getting the Rescue train do to all the 3rd rail damage in the area.
I will have to find out later about how the passengers where discharged.
At 11:15 Hours power is off between Allerton Ave to North of E180.
They now say 8 cars of the train are dead. Also the cause is some ties rotted out. Also there are reports of something falling from under the train to street level. There is also reports of a broken fuses.
Right now they have about 6 T.S.S's on the seen and a truck from Car Equipment.
The power off is only on TK 2.
Was the 10:20 resque train a Redbird???
Right now that is unknown. There is a good chance that train was a Redbird.
Just keep in mind this could of happened to any train.
Yep and it did about a month ago it happen to a new TO leaving East Tremont on the 2. A redbird I was the TO about 2 trains behind him. The same thing happen the shoes got on top of the third rail and the others went under it. Tearing up the boards it was good for me I went Express from E180 to 3ave
Question........have the express tracks been repaired on the #2 ??
right on SOUTH FERRY strikes again !! lol !!!
Sounds similar to the problem they had with the R-68 when its shoes went up over the board between Grand and B'way-Lafayette late last year.
By damage I assume you mean the energized shoe ignited the board and this caused fire damage to the subway car's undercarriage??
No. That R68 fire was at Tremont in the bronx.
Don't remember anything that severe, just that the train caused sparking, a short and lost power when the board broke and the shoe rode up on top of it, instead of on the third rail.
I guess that's why SB trains were going express north of E 180. I heard one guy complaining as he slowly descended the stairs from the uptown platform, suggesting to himself to take a taxi to Pelham Parkway.
The sbnd local track bet. Pelham Pway and Bronx Pk. E. was never in really good shape, even though it was resignalled. It's too bad the new cars were victimized by that.
On the one year anniversary of the R-142 ARMIDILLOS they start junping off track !! lol !!!
are they back in service yet
Don't wait up!!
it will probaly take aweek or 2 to get them back in service
..hey! you answered your own question! :C>
The "protection walls" placed on the upper White Plains Road line for the signalling project recently completed are being removed. When I was there 2 weeks ago, these "walls" were taken down to Allerton Ave.
Wonder if removal of these walls loosened up the third rail protection boards and caused the mishap.
--mark
Were the new cars damaged badly?
There where 8 broken fuses but the worst cars 6588,87. A Redbird helped the R142 into E 180 Barn.
I don't know that much more about it but they should be back to the road soon.
I hope a coupler adapter was handy, otherwise I think you can forget about blending both worlds together....
-Stef
Too bad -- it would have made as intersting a picture as that R-10/R-42 consist that was uploaded to the board from Dave's photo archives a couple of days ago :-)
Except that the R-10s and R-42s were fully compatible, odd as that may seem.
Every 142 has a coupler adapter on board.
The cause was rotten ties. Im not sure if the walls coming down had anything to do with it.
Does anyone know when they are going to give the next tour of the tunnel under Atlantic Ave near Court St?
That would be Bob Diamond, stop by his PCC operation at Red Hook and ask.
BTW, frequently one of the folks that works with him posts here.
Mr t__:^)
Has anyone seen the movie called The Warriors? It has some great train/station scenes in it. Story is a Gang has to make it back from the Bronx to Coney via the subway.
Hi, Yes you are right this film has been around since the 80's and does indeed feature some brilliant subway scenes. The one I seem to remember the most is almost at the end of the film which shows The Warriors getting off the train at Stilwell Avenue. Also I think some music videos have featured the subway, one which comes to mind is Macy Gray/I try. Regards Bob in England
No, but have you seen the original King Kong? The sequence where he tears up the Third Avenue El is awesome. In fact I've got Fay Wray's autograph not once but twice and eighteen years apart.
E_DOG
There are some oddities in The Warriors. For one thing, even though the IRT is implied quite a bit, the gang is always riding on R-27/30 units. On top of that, the train markings vary considerably. Apparently the producers glossed over this detail. At one point, you can even see a "QB-Local via Bridge" route sign. The movie came out in 1979, and that marking was already obsolete.
This is my favorite NYC Subway movie. It captured a time that nobody wants to remember, an embarassing era for the city and a kalidescope of graffiti at it's predominant moment in history. How the city has changed since the Summer of Sam, the infamous summer of 77 and the Warriors. I read that Hollywood had errected the giant Warriors tag on a wherehouse in Coney which we see at the end of the movie when they return. The comunity was outraged! i don't know how long that was up for?
If you like that one, check Escape from the Bronx, fort Apache The Bronx as well as Wild Style, some great subway footage with graf all over them.
I was wondering how many people on this board are actually looking forward to the new service changes? I got a chance yesterday to see a new map for the first time. Now everything looked much clearer to me. I take the 7th Ave stop on the D-Q line right now. Yeah, it won't be as nice anymore for getting to midtown. But now I can get to Union Square in 4 stops - without switching trains! I like this! Overall, it looks like the changes will either not affect my life too much, or will be good for me.
I was wondering if there's anybody else here who will benefit from the changes?
I don't think people are going to be happy about the changes but I think that a large number of them will accept it (in typical NY fashion) as being necessary.
As for Midtown - what are we talking about? 1 avenue block difference? Not exactly a disaster now is it?
I like it. I'm back to working AMs and have nothing but short trips.
Broadway needs an express more than Sixth Avenue does. So yes, I'm happy about it.
:-) Andrew
And my "T" is back - in spirit if not in name !!!!!!!!!!
Long Live the Broadway - West End Express ;-)
I'm looking forward to having Broadway express service once again. Give me a train of R-32s zipping past those local stops and I'm back in time to 1965 or 1967.
Steve: A few days ago you asked what signage the West End trains displayed when they ran in the days leading up to Chrystie Street. They still displayed "T" Broadway-West End Exp or "T"Broadway Exp.
The TA did not get around to altering the roll signs until after Chrystie Street openned. R 1-9's and R-32's were assinged to the new "B" train after Chrystie Street openned. The R 1-9's had no trouble because they had carried "B" 6 Avenue Express signs since they were delivered. However the R-32's carried "BB" 6 Avenue Local signs until the TA pasted the letter B over the BB on the roll signs.
Its interesting to note that the only cars ever to receive complete Chrystie Street rollsigns with all the colors were the R-16's. Our old friends the R-11's remained BMT loyalist until the end,carrying the BMT number series into the seventies.
Larry,RedbirdR33
MUCH MORE'
I think the changes will work out well enough. MTA is maintaining serice over the Manny B to lines close by the 6th Av routes; there are good transfers available, and no matter how they did it someone was bound to be inconvenienced.
We should remember that the biggest inconvenience of all was avoided: the Manny B becomes unuseable because NYCDOT couldn't get access to fix it. Tat would make the present situation into a picnic by comparison.
Now we have a real shot at getting full service restored in 2004. When it is, Sixth Av riders will have the "bestest and mostest" of travel options anywhere in the system.
Guess the only people who REALLY got screwed are the Grand Streeters.. And even thats not SO bad. (esp compared to the no-bridge scenario described)
Oh, the folks at Grand Street don't know from subway inconvenience. Even if Grand St were shut down, they'd still have Canal St. on the (N)(Q)(R)(W) and Bowery on the (J)(M)(Z) within a couple of blocks. They should take a look at eastern Queens or parts of southern Brooklyn for really underserved areas.
:-) Andrew
I won't benefit personally, but I'm happy about the changes.
The best, of course, would be to have all four tracks on the Manhattan Bridge used, but as long as only one side is avilable, the Broadway side is, IMHO, much better, for two main reasons.
1. The Broadway Line is the best situated line in Manhattan. It has better connections--connects directly to every Manhattan mainline except 8th Avenue.
2. The Broadway Line is the best situated line in Manhattan. Its stations, both local and express, are better cited to the destinations people most want to go.
3. Though long routes (starting in the Bronx and Upper Manhattan and running to southern Brooklyn) make more efficient use of resources, shorter lines are operationally superior. Long lines have more opportunity to fail because of bottlenecks and service delays.
Yes, I'm a happy camper.
"1. The Broadway Line is the best situated line in Manhattan. It has better connections--connects directly to every Manhattan mainline except 8th Avenue."
You could get the 8 Ave subway at 42 St. Just that you have to walk down the LONG Hallway to get it. SO it's relly the Broadway Line connects to every line in the city.
Hallway?? Never heard that used in the subway. I think you mean passageway.
The long passageway that you go through is the way that is dug under the 7th and 8th Avenues. So you're literally walking 1 Av under the ground to get to the 8th Av. Subway. It ... is .. . .. a long ... walk to ... the Broadway...Line from the 8th Av. line. Must've taken me at least 6-7 minutes to 'walk the walk'.
Luckily, passengers transferring from the 7 Flushing line to the Broadway Line(N,R) can simply take a long escalator to the 43rd St street level and the N and R trains. (instead of climbing the stairs and going up three ramps)
;-)
Railfan Pete.
If you don't like the ramps you can transfer to the 7 from the Broadway Line via the 1239 Platforms...
There's only one escalator, running up, near the N/R, but there's a pair of escalators at the top of the ramps.
That 41st Street connection sure is strange, and it looks like it's going to remain that way after the construction. (Good.)
The passageway parallel to and just north of the 1/2/3/9 platforms, currently closed for construction, had the plywood door open slightly this morning. It looks like that strange bit of artwork on the wall -- vaguely reminiscent of faces -- is gone. Fortunately, I got a picture a few days before the passageway closed (what timing!).
Daylight was streaming through that plywood door the other day. A quick glance and people got very confused about what vertical plane they were on (I just walked down 100 steps and there's still sunlight!)
The only way I ever bothered to get to that pair of escalators was by using the 1/9 platform, going up the stairs in the middle and around the corner.
I love the various interconnections between the lines at Times Square, and I hope after this rehab there are even more ways to get around.
Someone really needs to design a 3D map of that station. I still haven't quite figured it out. The last time I wandered around there, I have a feeling I would have made a complete circle had a plywood wall been removed, but I'm not really sure.
"Someone really needs to design a 3D map of that station. I still haven't quite figured it out. The last time I wandered around there, I have a feeling I would have made a complete circle had a plywood wall been removed, but I'm not really sure."
Funny you said that. When I use to use that station, I would get lost, or, find myself going in circles. Now, I either go out of the station if I'm going to Port Authority, or use the West 4th Street transfer.
N Broadway Line
It's easy to get lost there, isn't it? Even if you don't get lost, you can get disoriented. Last fall, I transferred from the Broadway line (got a rerouted Q express) to the 7 and walked to the wrong end of the station. Wound up on the last car of the train instead of the first car. Made it as far as the ninth car before giving up because the train was packed.
That happened to me too! (stupid tail tracks). The easiest way to tell is that the express trains are always on the right, so that they don't have to take the diverging route off the switch.
Just like the 3D map they have of the Bway-Nassau/Fulton complex. Now that's a station you could get lost or turned around in. The signage at one time wasn't as good as it is today. (When you got down to the A platform, you had no way of knowing which direction was which)
Oh, I still get turned around there. I've tried to study the 3D map and it only gets me more confused!
Once I figured out the basic layout -- the 4/5, J/M/Z, and 2/3 platforms each run north-south, from east to west, and the A/C platform runs east-west underneath them all -- and realized why I was sometimes but not always sent down to the A/C platform (the mezzanine is split by the J/M/Z, with the northbound platform on the 4/5 side and the southbound platform on the 2/3 side) -- I never had trouble finding my way around.
Incidentally, if you're transferring from the 4/5 or the northbound J/M/Z to the northbound 2/3, and a northbound A/C pulls in while you're on its platform, take it one stop to Chambers and you'll have a shorter walk to the 2/3.
If you really don't know what your doing... you can really get lost and mugged in this station (TIME SQUARE).
N Bwy
Just follow the signs if you don't want to explore. If you see signs sending you both ways, pick one -- they'll both take you where you're going. (It would be nice if they'd take down the signs pointing down the ramp to the 1/2/3/9 now that the level passageway is open again, however.)
It doesn't significantly affect me directly, but I have several friends who commute from Midwood to the East Village who are happy :).
I usually get a seat on the N to and from astoria (and no, i don't get on at ditmars)... with 12TPH increased to 20TPH in the rush hour with the W, now I'll be able to get 2 seats and put my feet up! =) hehe!
(actually, I'm sure 34th street, where i get off/on for work, will be chaos for awhile... ah well)
Be VERY CAREFULL, our mayor's storm troopers will be watching, taking up more than one seat is now a felony (or maybe that only applies to the homeless, if you have some cash it's only a summons).
The changes will be a slight improvement in my life. My "home lines" are the 1/2/3/9 on the Upper West Side. Although I don't go to Brooklyn every day, when I do, now I'll be able to take the express to 42nd rather than having to deal with the local to 59th. And when I'm traveling between two points in Manhattan, I find myself wishing for Broadway express service a lot more often than Sixth Avenue express service.
In general, I think it's an improvement. The Broadway and Sixth Avenue lines are never more than a few blocks apart, and the minor inconvenience to Sixth Avenue patrons will be made up for by the minor convenience to Broadway patrons. Broadway transfers are much better than Sixth Avenue transfers, except to the A/C. Broadway has a greater need for express service than Sixth Avenue; Broadway has five local stops while Sixth has only two (one of which is a transfer point). The greatest loss will be to those who lose their one-seat ride.
I'm looking forward to it too. It'll be better to have express service on the Broadway BMT once again. I've never ridden on the Broadway Express tracks over the Manhattan Bridge and I'm looking forward to doing that. Bring on the two Q's and the W!
The following people will be convenienced by the service changes:
1. Bronx B/D line riders who board at 34st and probably 42nd are guaranteed a seat.
2. 6th ave local riders get two lines.
3. Astoria riders get two lines, and all-day express service.
4. Anyone who uses the N to get to/from Brooklyn will probably use the W if their origin/destination is 14st or above.
5. Anyone who wants to go between the Canarsie line and Times Square gets express (and more frequent) service and no long walks.
6. Lower passenger loads on the N and R between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
7. Lex ave riders will transfer at 14st or Canal st for their South Brooklyn service.
8. Broadway line riders gets two additional lines with no service reduction (two free lines).
9. Broadway line riders get a third additional line with a slight service reduction.
10. Crews have more short lines to pick from.
and inconvenienced:
People who work around Rockefeller Ctr coming from Brooklyn, especially from the D/Q. A very busy station, 47th/50th, will not even have a substitute on Bway without changing trains.
Nobody cared about Astoria riders when the T, QT, and QB were replaced with the lousy RR in 1967. Revenge is SWEET!!!
YES IT IS!!!
N Bwy LOCAL
ASTORIA
Well, 49th St/7th Ave on the (N)(R) and (W) comes close enough. Heck, I walk one avenue from the (F) train at 14th St and 6th Ave to my job at 5th Ave.
:-) Andrew
I like the new pattern better. There's more connections to the IRT now, especially the 4,5,6 at Union Square. Also the bright new Canal bridge station will be a pleasure to use compared to dingy Grand street.
Can't wait...can't wait! Working at 34th st and living at BPB in The Bronx, always a seat, no more "due to problem in Brooklyn" delays on my way home...Loved it the last time too, except, now we have equipment that runs...9 days and counting...BRING IT ON!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh yeah, almost forgot...it will be loads of fun watching the uninformed masses for the first couple of weeks too!
Peace,
ANDEE
Want to bet there will be people asking, "What's a W"?
40 years ago it was, "What's a Q/QB/QT/N/RR/T/TT"?
Oh, they'll be plenty of them...and I'll be laughing my ass off at all the confusion.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think I will be happy, I use the N/R to go cross town from Lex/59 to 57/7 several times a day. The service is pretty good now (with some gapping at times), but with the addition of the W, I will have one more option on this route. I would think that there will be more overall service on this segment of the route. I would also assume the tracks can handle additional service without delays?????
The changes don't affect me from a commuting standpoint, but there are severe liabilities for the few people who have to commute from Southwest Brooklyn to Queens.
One co-worker of mine comes from Bay Parkway on the 'B' to 23rd/Ely on the 'F'. All this involved was a simple cross-platform transfer between the two trains at Rockefeller Center. She recently asked me what she would have to do once the changes are implemented. I gave her the following options, none of which appealed to her:
-Change from the 'W' to the 'F' at 34th, involving crowded stairs, escalators and ramps.
-Change from the 'W' to the '7' or 'E' at Times Square, also involving crowded stairs, escalators and ramps.
-Wait for an 'M' and change to the 'F' at 9th Street or Essex Street, both of which involve crowded, narrow stairs, and the latter of which is very roundabout.
-Take the B6 up Bay Parkway to McDonald Avenue and then the 'F' all the way through Manhattan.
If we were a stop further east at Queens Plaza, she could just take the 'W' all the way to QB. But we're not.
Personally, I enjoyed being able to transfer across the platform from the 'E' or 'F' to Brooklyn-bound 6th Avenue express/bridge service at 7th Avenue or Rock Center respectively. I can still do that if coming from the 'N' or 'R', but the 53rd Street tunnel seems so much faster than the 60th.
It's also easier to transfer from the '7' to the 'B/D/Q' at Bryant Park than to the 'Q/W' at Times Square. Transferring from the '7' to the 'W' at Queensboro is a weekday option, but the Steinway tunnel also seems faster than the 60th.
Cutting off the 'W' at Pacific on weekends will hurt, because the entire 4th Avenue corridor will be cut off from the Bridge. This will require slogging through Montague and the Financial District; or transferring at Atlantic-Pacific (through passageways that are crowded enough now) to the IRT; OR a double transfer to the 'N/'R' one stop to DeKalb to access the 'Q'.
(I question how they're going to turn around weekend 'W's at Pacific. Is there a switch between Pacific and DeKalb? If so, how can they turn trains without disrupting the 'N/R'? Well, we should be glad West End service isn't being reduced to a 36th Street-Coney shuttle on weekends.)
From a railfan standpoint, it means that the 'B' and 'D' are changing from two of the best lines to two of the worst. The 'B' in particular is losing the Bridge, the express in Manhattan and Brooklyn and the West End el. It will join the 'C' and 'R' (and eventually the 'V') as all-underground/all-local lines- railfan hell. The 'D' will still have the CPW express and Concourse express in rush hours, but this hardly makes up for the loss of 6th Avenue express, Bridge and Brighton service. It will be another 'E'- all underground, but redeemed by some express.
Conversely, the weekday 'Q' will continue its status as a top-notch line for railfans- or even improve it by swapping the 6th Avenue express for Broadway, while keeping the Bridge and Brighton express. The weekday 'W' will be excellent from start to finish, with the only dull stretch between 34th and Lexington.
It's still not made clear in the brochures whether the 'W' will run express on the Astoria line just in rush hour peak direction, or change direction midday a la Pelham and Flushing. There's only one express track!
Another option for your coworker: W to Queensboro Plaza, then transfer downstairs to the Manhattan-bound 7. Or W to 34th, R to Queens Plaza, E/F/G (or E/V come November) back to 23rd-Ely or Court Square.
The W-7 transfer at Times Square is shorter than the B-7 transfer you're used to now, and you're more likely to get a seat on the 7. An escalator will take you most of the way. Don't bother with the ramps.
The R across the platform is the obvious choice, but you don't like it. I can't help you there.
Come to think of it, it is kind of annoying that, starting in November, the increased Queens-Manhattan service will be on a line that's pretty isolated until 2004. The flip side is that 6th Avenue would be underserved with just the F.
The W will be an all-day express, like the 6, 7, and J.
The only reason 60th seems slower is the long connection from Queens Plaza to the tunnel. I find the ride on the N much faster than the Steinway or 53st tubes.
As for your comment on Pacific st, they can transfer from the W to the Q quite easily, no double xfers necessary. They will turn by heading onto the bypass and reversing direction, there is a single crossover north of Pacific which does not interfere with the 4th ave local.
From the J & M now, I will have direct access to the Bridge to Midtown expresses. The way it is now, the expresses stop at Grand, which is not connected to Bowery, and you have to get the F to get to Essex. (I often get out at Grand and walk to Bowery if I don't feel like waiting for the F, which is slow somtimes. So now, I can have as little as one transfer to the M on weekdays, and on weekends, what can be a four set ride (B/D-F-J-M -if I'm using the express to catch up to the F) is reduced to a 3 seat ride (Q-J-M -Q already exp.) Going the other direction, there is no direct access to the DeKalb area nights and weekends, except to walk all the way through the bridge platform to get to the N&R local. Now, DeKalb is only one stop away, 34th is only 2 stops away, and Times Square is only 3 stops away. It is a great option next to the L, which as Henry R-32 pointed out, also gets direct express service connection at Union Sq.
I don't know if this was mentioned before but as of 7/22 the BMT will return to be the major operator of service in Brooklyn (pre-1967 service). I am sure hard-line BMTers are jumping for joy.
I'm breaking out the Champagne!!!
BMT-Lines.COM
Actually, the new map looks (except for the letter designations) like the 60's maps. All we need now are triplex and standards!
Well, it was BMT anyway. It's just that it was running intrinsically IND routes like the B,D and F to/from 6th Ave (and the Q, which was a BMT in exile in Manhattan) (and of course, the F will continue to use the Culver BMT.)
:-) Andrew
Finally, after 13 years in exile, the Q returns to Broadway where it belongs! It's about time. Now I'll be able to get to Brooklyn much quicker because I'll be able to transfer directly to Manhattan Bridge service directly from the 2 or 5, without having to switch to a 1 or 6 train first. I wish Broadway Express service over the Manhattan Bridge was around between 1992 and 1996 when I was going to school at Brooklyn Tech. I remember how horribly long it used to take to get from my home in the Bronx to school.
[...as of 7/22 the BMT will return to be the major operator of service in Brooklyn (pre-1967 service).]
Although lots of New Yorkers (including some conductors) still don't want to admit it, even after a half-century, the BMT hasn't been the operator of ANY service since the late 1940's. It's MTA-New York City Transit now.
Or technically, the New York City Transit Authority.
:-) Andrew
In 1994, it changed to NYC Transit.
The terms IND, BMT and IRT, along with all the old names for the lines (not the service that runs on them), are still in use at the NYCT.
Just remember, when the BMT was built most the jobs in Manhattan were located south of 23rd Street. Most of East Midtown was residential. True, the key factor here is the one and only subway line on the east side, but at least the IND has stations at 53rd and Lex and 53rd and 3rd.
As against that, the #6 has capacity northbound in the AM, and southbound in the PM. The BMT provides a two-way transfer, the IND does not. If I were the NYCT, I'd accelerate that station job and build the transfer before 2004.
>>>In 1994, it changed to NYC Transit. <<<
Only for appearance sake. The official name of the entity is still The New York City Transit Authority...BTW all MTA agencies still retain their original names legally.
Peace,
ANDEE
The TA won't admit is either. The B1 trainmaster at Jay St Control Center is still known as the BMT desk.
The names IRT, BMT, IND will NEVER die!!!!! Long live the individual comapny names!!!!
I am enjoying all of this pro-BMT posts. Finally, after almost 34 years the B'way BMT will be the prominent line in service. I'll never forget how terrible I felt when the T with its very new R32's were vanished from Astoria. Now if we can get the N back on the bridge!
Jose
Definitely..................
according to the list here, it's at 36th street "revenue service inactive". i was just curious if anyone has seen it, what condition it's in, is this the only existing r32 that didn't go through the GOH?
might anyone even have a picture?
According to a car assignment sheet that I have, 3616 doesn't exist anymore. There are no R32's at 38 St. It must have been scrapped. The only R32 in storage with no mate is 3620 and that is in the graveyard at Coney Island.
To address WMATA's continuing escalator problems that have plagued the system in recent years, they have finally decided to cover the entrances to all stations, protecting the escalators from the elements. Today, the Post ran an article about the design chosen for the new canopies:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/metro/specials/metrorail/A52799-2001Jul12.html
Earlier, they had a poll to pick the best design - this page gives you a better view of the winning design (the top one), but also shows all four finalist designs, with links to the full proposals in PDF format:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/polls/canopya.htm
Thanks for posting that! Neat design work.
These designs are suggestive of the new entrance to Suburban Station which opened a few years back, as well as the LIRR entrance.
Open, airy, steel pole-supported glass is a nice way to frame a subway.
By the way, what do you guys think of the subway entrance at 21rst St- Queensbridge?
By the way, what do you guys think of the subway entrance at 21rst St- Queensbridge?
It's just a standard hole in the ground, like any other subway entrance. Or is there a grand entrance I'm unaware of? (I've used that station three or four times and I've always ended up at the same hole in the ground.)
Escalator going to street if you go onto the west side of 21st. The east side exit is a standard hole in the ground.
The escalator on the NW corner is a hole in the ground with escalators.
I like 21st Street because like DC, it has escalators even for a short distance. But my all-time favorite station is Roosevelt Island HANDS DOWN. It breaks the blandness and mediocrity of nearly every other subway station there (and many of those that are nice, are neglected).
My second favorite is Herald Square.
It breaks the blandness and mediocrity of nearly every other subway station there (and many of those that are nice, are neglected).
What's "there"? Underground IRT and BMT stations are generally not bland. Most IND stations are, but there are exceptions (e.g., 190 on the A).
What's "there"?
The word that was supposed to precede IS.
Underground IRT and BMT stations are generally not bland.
Yes they are. The only thing that makes them different from IND stations are the mosaics. There are so many of them that it becomes monotonous. Meanwhile Roosevelt Island and Herald Square (and 190th Street as you've mentioned) both have unique space, it's not just the wallpaper.
I don't know about you, but I bother to look at the content of the mosaics, not just their existence. They vary from station to station. A lot. And don't forget the elaborate plaques in the 1904 IRT stations. (Anyone for Bleecker?)
The original IRT station plaques and mosaics are exquisite. In addition, the old IRT stations have a certain uniqueness about them (I'm thinking mainly of the ones under Park).
The regular mosaics are all the same concept, the only difference is the color and the pattern. It has just as much value as the differences between any basic DC Metro station. The ones that forgo the number or letter in favor of some picture like Chambers Street-1/2/3/9 or Union Square-N/R are nice.
Do you feel the same way about paintings? They're all the same concept, the only difference is the color and the pattern.
I have nothing against great variations off the usual mold as long as they're done right. I just find nothing compelling about what was done with Roosevelt Island. (To the contrary, 168 -- modulo the pigeons -- and 181 do wonders with their space. I can only imagine what 181's chandeliers added.)
Mosaics are common because they look nice (usually) and they lend themselves to variation. The new Brooklyn Bridge (e.g.) doesn't have mosaics, but what takes their place is pretty boring.
I don't like paintings if there are many of them, and that the only differences between them is a small change in color or pattern. That is what most subway mosaics are like.
On the IND, yes, and that's why I consider the IND's mosaics to be nothing more than an intriguing curiosity.
But the differences in, e.g., Canarsie line mosaics are sufficient for them to qualify as unique works. Unique works of a common form, sure, but unique works. Haydn wrote over 100 symphonies. They're all symphonies. They all have something in common. But each one is a unique work.
168st, 181st, and City Hall on the IRT: Do you consider them bland, too?
The the one differentiating thing I find in the IND stations is the mezzanines. Herald Square's ramps; Utica's long staircases; Union TPK's split mezzanine; Broadway Lafayette with a lower mezzanine visible from an upper one, Grand Ave's high ceiling and oddly divided mezzanine; 63rd drive with a half-length mezzanine split lengthwise by the ventalation and direct-to-street exits at the west end, 7th ave on the F with a mezzanine that ramps up at the south end and a new, lower one takes its place, and many more.
168st, 181st, and City Hall on the IRT: Do you consider them bland, too?
Remember this:
"and many of those that are nice, are neglected"
City Hall doesn't count, it's no longer a station.
All of those stations that you mentioned and Roosevelt Island have one thing in common: They are all vaulted.
I don't consider 181st neglected. I wish 168st had remained neglected, those stupid new lights ruin the feeling conveyed by the globe lights. And give birds a new place to sit and crap on you.
181st was rehabbed a few years ago. It's certainly not neglected.
That's what I said, pigs thinks otherwise.
I have never been on the platform at 181st Street. From the train it looks similar to 168th Street.
Neither have I. When was the last time you saw it (took a good look)? I don't know exactly when (early last year?), but they completely rehabbed it. New floors, fluorescent lighting, and they now have only one crossover that is still operational (the others look pretty dismal).
I can only see the walls from the train, they're cleaner and more brightly illuminated (or so I can recall).
I never stand at the railfan window or portal.
Very cool. I almost entered that design competition, but had only found out about it three days before flying off to London for a week, and I couldn't meet the registration deadline.
Naturally, my proposal would have handily won, but congrats to the designers of the winning entry and other three finalists anyway. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I always thought that it was strange seeing those escalators exposed to rain and snow. When Metro opened, didn't the designers figure that natures elements would cause trouble down the road ?
Check out the canopy at the Glenmont Station (new extension). Simple and functional.
Bill "Newkirk"
well, apparently not. Besides as a further example of genius design most stations are very deep by NY, Chgo, Philly, Boston standards. Remember this is the imperial capital. No expense spared, but ripoff fares, and blue-collar hostile schedules. (Sat service starts at 8 AM!!!) Happily, despite their desires 60% of daily riders are short hops in the central business district. (source washpost)
Bowling Green (4)(5) has exposed escalators. Do they have frequent breakdowns?
Which other stations have escalators directly to the street?
I think I saw one at Sutphin, but that might have been to the LIRR terminal upstairs.
63/Lex (northwest corner) is one. Delancey used to be another, but I think that escalator (up only) has been closed for years, if not removed entirely. Columbus Circle. 125/Broadway, I think. I'm sure there are a few more.
Sutphin's escalator used to go "outside" but it was under the LIRR so it didn't matter. Now, the future escalator will probably lead indoors someplace.
Jamaica Van Wyck and Parsons / Archer have covered escalators that go directly to street.
The one at 63rd / lex is under a building and far enough back from the street to be safe from the weather.
Delancey's escalator is still there, motionless.
I think 50st / 8th goes to the street, but is also covered.
The only escalator that gets directly rained on and is still used is Bowling Green.
Delancey's escalator is still there, motionless.
Is it open to the public as a staircase? (I don't think so.) Will it ever move again? (Doubt it.)
I think 50st / 8th goes to the street, but is also covered.
Which entrance? I used that station -- via the fancy SB entrance -- two weeks ago and I don't remember an escalator to the street.
The only escalator that gets directly rained on and is still used is Bowling Green.
It's not protected from the elements at all? Even if it works, don't people slip in the rain and snow?
Not protected at all for Bowling Green, just like the METRO stations.
IF you use the fancy entrance at 50st and there's no escalator, I was imagining it. BTW: Earlier this week the escalator from the SB E platform was running on "ENTER TO START" mode. Does this happen often?
Are you sure you don't mean 59th and Eighth (actually closer to the NW corner of 58th and Eighth) for the 1/A/B/C/D trains? That entrance has an overhead cover and I believe does have an escalator, though the construction of the new AOL Time Warner headquarters on the Coliseum site may disrupt things a bit.
Never ridden Metro.
I may be wrong about 50th. (And I pointed out 59th earlier in the thread. Don't go down that escalator if you want the NB 1/9, BTW -- enter across the circle, either on the east side of Broadway or on the southeast corner of CPS. If you don't take my advice, you'll have to use the IND platforms as an underpass. (Incidentally, why not open a section of the center platform as an underpass? Are there any visible remnants of the old IRT underpass?)
Don't forget the infamous escalators at the east end of Main St terminal, which are currenly being rebuilt because of their poor design and exposure to the elements.
Money for N.Y. Transit Projects Secured in the Senate, today's Daily News Express.
Woo hah what a windfall -- Laurie Grubman is goning to get sued for 10 times more than what they appropriated for the MTA in that Senate plan :-)
On the other hand, look for that total to go up -- at least the one for the East Side Access project -- next year when Pataki is in his re-election fight and needs suburban support. The House Republicans will try and help `ol George with the LIRR crowd, and Hillary and Charlie won't try to scuttle it in the Senate, because that would hurt Cuomo or McCall.
Just great. East Side Access is getting more funding (by a factor of 7) than the Second Avenue subway even though the Second Avenue subway is a more pressing need and ESA will send even more passengers onto the 4/5/6.
"Just great. East Side Access is getting more funding (by a factor of 7) than the Second Avenue subway even though the Second Avenue subway is a more pressing need and ESA will send even more passengers onto the 4/5/6."
Yes, but maybe this arrangement is better, because a crisis will come sooner this way and the answer to the crisis is a 2nd Av subway. MTA works better in crisis mode. Maybe Albany will cough up more dollars then...
Maybe...
Maybe.
Well, I'm glad we got something.
The $5 million for expanded bus facilities at Jamaica Station is a good move.
Yeah, right! $3M is just another study…
Yawn.
They might as well put the money into teleportation research for all the good it’s doing.
John
Yeah, right! $3M is just another study...
Preliminary engineering?
(Yeah, right! $3M is just another study...
Preliminary engineering? )
Can't do that without an approved plan. The fact that our politicos got in the Daily News for $3 million demonstates why it will never get built. Not until the media stops listening to Ron in Bayside and says "bullshit."
Larry, you flatter me! Only, could you point them out? I thought they were too busy listening to you...
Why even bother in giving $3 million? It's just going to get pissed away in another study. Even if the $3 million were to go toward construction, it couldn't buy the equipment needed to build it.
I find it ironic that start up light rail transit systems in cities around the country get all this funding and these systems probably handle no more than 35,000 a day. Yet 2 Ave would handle hundreds of thousands of people a day and you guys get chump change.
There are still a lot of people out there who figure that New York is full of Jews and other foreigners and that federal $$$ should go to "real" Americans.
(There are still a lot of people out there who figure that New York is full of Jews and other foreigners and that federal $$$ should go to "real" Americans.)
That and gays, blacks and Puerto Ricans. People used to hate New York because it was full of Catholics. Now many of the people who hate New York ARE Catholic.
Just an excuse to suck us dry.
The only way Second Ave has any hope would be for NYC to get the 2012 Olympics(and I doubt that!) and then we'd get fast tracked like Atlanta did for their olympics.
**
I can see it now: "NYC 3001- Second Avenue Subway Opening Soon. Monies have been released for a study for a new Second Avenue Subway.It will run from 63rd to 86 Street with hopes for an extension to 125 Street to meet the Lexington Avenue Line which has been declared a national historic landmark and is now rserved fort fan trips only. It is expect that this line will open by 3050 provided funding remains available. Skeptics say it has been planned since the 1950s. Transit Officials are adament that the line will open by 3050. A new line of subway cars- the R3050 is being ordered for this line. They will have a red stripe along the belt-line in remembrance of a famous 1960s car- the redbird.
City fathers hope this line will alleviate the traffic crisis caused by the loss of the Lexington Line to everyday traffic in 2500AD. The line remains open for monthly fan trips only. No fare hike is anticipated since the last transit employee retired 1000 years ago and the system is 100% automated. Critics are pressing or a return of police in the system."
**
The above section is pure fiction.
honestly,I doubt 3 million could build a subway line
Not only do I doubt that people will be using subways in 3000, I also doubt that anybody will be speaking the same language that we do.
Both of you missed the point-- There will still be no second ave subway then!I was trying to be cute.
I get the point. Just because I responded to another point doesn't mean I don't get the main one.
Can I have some of what you've been drinking? :)
--Mark
Now you see why I am not a TV Sitcom writer! I was trying to be cute. I do not think 2nd ave will ever be built.Sure, we might get someore holes and some might even survive to join the three currently existing
NJ Transit
Declines Fare Hike, Daily News Express. More state funding and revenue from increased ridership will cover the expense of service improvements.
I have been trying to figure out exactly what the relationship is between a couple of organizations that (as I see it) have New York subway cars as their primary focus. The list of museum cars on this website lists three large owners of retired subway cars that are still based out of the current system somehow: the New York Transit Museum, the Preservation Alliance, and the NYCTA itself. The most shadowy of these organizations is the Preservation Alliance. What is this group? Is it affiliated with NYTM, or not? Where do they store their equipment, does any of it run, and is any of it on display? As for NYTM, I have NEVER seen a reliable roster of equipment owned by them. Could anyone help me to better understand this network of preservation entities?
I bump into this website on the project by the Baltmore MTA called "Baltmore-Washington DC Maglev." I heard that it's going to run from Baltmore Penn Station to Washington DC Union Station. And the Maglev would start running by Year 2010. Here's the link to the Website.
http://www.bwmaglev.com/home.asp
It's a pie-in-the-sky project. No Maglev line has ever been used in a common-carrier operation, all have been demonstration lines. There's a "contest" between Baltimore-Washington and Pittsburgh for the first funding, but nothing yet.
The only possible corridors for a B-W Maglev are The CSX/Amtrak ROW's,
the I-95 corridor or the B-W Parkway. The first two are most certainly out, as CSX is hostile to anything but CSX freights and Amtrak has no room, and should be very cold to the project. The I-95 corridor is the most expensive, as the interstate would have to be totally rebuilt to fit the Maglev line in the median. That leaves the B-W Parkway. Maryland won't have a problem, but below MD185 the Parkway is a Federal park and the Feds won't currently allow a third lane (the Maryland section has already been widened to 3 lanes) or any major highway improvments that would change the Parkway as it now exists.
Lastly, assuming we get the $$$, once the hearings start, the NIMBYS will come out of the trees in droves, especially when word of the strong magnetic fields used in Maglev.
The basic reason the Maryland MTA is pushing it is allied to the effort to get the 2012 Olympics in the area, which the pragmatics around here believe we have no chance whatsoever.
Whoever gets it, the Congressional Delegations are involved and the winner will be crowned the new King of Pork.
Dan:
When will those public hearings start? The maglev is a great idea and I'll raise hell on its behalf if necessary.
Eric D. Smith
No it isn't a geat ides. For the reasons I stated in my post, its a pie-in-the-sky boondoggle. Nowhere has magnev been built as a common carrier.
No it isn't a geat idea. For the reasons I stated in my post, its a pie-in-the-sky boondoggle. Nowhere has maglev been built as a common carrier.
Suppose in the 1930s, with no one having ever tried it, both the government and investors had decided that TWA and Pan Am's desire to provide and promote passenger airline travel was "a (literal) pie-in-the-sky boondoggle." Don't forget, the FAA was formed not just to regulate, but also to promote air travel. Without government assistance and involvement, air travel would never have gotten off the ground, so to speak, and this (then) brand new, untried technology would have been applied to common carrier service much more slowly. (And passenger trains would have thrived a bit longer too.) Government investment in infrastructure provides strong support for air travel to this day. If airlines were forced to maintain airports and all of the other ancilliary services besides simply flying planes, they would be out of business tomorrow. Compare this to railroads, who own and maintain their own infrastructure while other modes of transport are heavily subsidized. To this day, as private businesses, railroads allocate resources to infrastructure only on an as-needed basis just to stay afloat.
The argument against trying maglev because it has not been built as a common carrier yet anywhere in the world is specious. Not to sound too much like SubTalker "American Pig," but why not try a new technology? You have to start somewhere. I will yield on the point that that somewhere should NOT be the Baltimore-Washington corridor. Almost nowhere else would this line be more redundant, what with two highways and a passenger-railroad-owned conventional railroad already present, which has just begun "high-speed" express service.
You have to start somewhere. I will yield on the point that that somewhere should NOT be the Baltimore-Washington corridor. Almost nowhere else would this line be more redundant, what with two highways and a passenger-railroad-owned conventional railroad already present, which has just begun "high-speed" express service.
But since it won't work, it shouldn't be built where it's needed.
Dan:
I beg to differ. I know that Japan or some other Asian/European country has a Maglev line and it is doing quite nicely.
Eric D. Smith
I know that Japan or some other Asian/European country has a Maglev line and it is doing quite nicely.
For the skeptics, please provide evidence.
Thank you.
I'm pretty sure it's Japan although it is an experimental line.
E_DOG
experimental line.
Does it provide common carrier service or is it just a loop line that goes nowhere and serves nobody.
Is there a Web site with info on it? Since Maglev seems to be the current "next best thing" you would think there would be news somwhere and a site promoting it.
Hey was there a Thyssen maglev train?
Where? The only place I know of is in Germany and it's a test loop only. Regardless, there's NO PLACE it can be built, sucessful operation on not.
As I said Was there a thyssen maglev?
I believe there was a Thyssen MagLev. That was around 20 or so years ago. The company was Thyssen AG , which unhappily took over the Budd Co. Trailer Division, where I worked at that time. I don't remember
any details, though.
Chuck Greene
I have a maglev technical question. Would it be more feasible to operate a "semi-maglev", that is, a train that runs on wheels, but is propelled by a linear propulsion system? On the one hand, it would require less energy since the magnetic fields wouldn't have to be used to fight gravity keeping the train levitated. On the other hand, a wheeled vehicle must fight lots of friction, while a true maglev has practically none. I know that some roller coasters already use hybrid systems which use linear propulsion to power wheeled vehicles, but I don't know how their performance or cost would compare to a true maglev.
Michalovic
If you're going to be using a linear propulsion motor, you're going to have magnetic fields anyway. In fact, any electrical motor produces a magnetic field. The magnetic field is what turns the motor. You can't have one without the other. I wouldn't be suprised if you needed more power to move a "semi-maglev" because now there is the added friction of the wheels it has to overcome.
Roller Coasters with that need the wheels becuase linear propulsion is only used to initally move the coaster, so the coaster is coasting on it's own after that. It could be possible to just keep the linear propulsion for the entire stretch to power a wheeled vehicle, but then you might as well use Maglev, becuase I doubt any less magnetic fields will be produced.
Roller Coasters with that need the wheels becuase linear propulsion is only used to initally move the coaster
Roller coasters have the standard power and brakes built into the track. The power is either the chain to go up the hill, or the linear propulsion to get started when on a flat surface. There's usually one right at the boarding area, and a few before the boarding area so trains can stack up if people are too slow getting off & on.
Airtrain.
Here's a scan of a portion of the Bob Emery map that shows the connection at Flatbush and Atlantic Aves. The dotted line in the box on the upper right is where the connection supposedly was. The box on the left says "Track conn. used for I.R.T. Pres. A. Belmont's private car on L.I.R.R. trips 1908-1916"
If you wan't to see a scan of the entire page (caution, it's 250kb), click here
Awesome map! Thanks! I was wondering about the connections between that yard and the terminal.
Here's a scan of a portion of the Bob Emery map that shows the connection at Flatbush and Atlantic Aves. The dotted line in the box on the upper right is where the connection supposedly was. The box on the left says "Track conn. used for I.R.T. Pres. A. Belmont's private car on L.I.R.R. trips 1908-1916"
Thanks for posting it. What actually surprised me was seeing that the Flatbush Avenue terminal once had several more tracks and platforms than it does today. I never knew that.
There were two levels, lower for passenger trains, upper for freight. I'm not sure if the freight level was at street level or elevated (anybody know for sure?), and how it was situated in relation to the station building. (Note the stairs to the BMT 5th Ave. elevated at the right of the picture.) If I recall correctly, the major freight customers were meatpackers.
I thought the meat packer used tracks 8 to 14 on the same level as the passenger trains.
After looking at the map a little closer, I think you might be right.
But I thought I recalled reading in Seyfried that there were two levels. I wonder when those tracks were removed?
Bob, I think there were two levels, and recall reading that the meat packer had the upper level along Fort Greene Place, but there might have also been a few tracks on the lower level that could have served the same purpose (depending upon the time frame in question).
BMTman
BMT Man -do you think those extra underground
tracks (I remember seeing extra provisions via
the column work years ago and wondered...) were
for baggage car facilities or even transfer of
small crate- type material supplies to and from the
IRT/LIRR companies - ie: work train related
materials. While there were no Gibbs "baggage"
cars - the later MP 54 LIRR cars from 1910 onward
did have some MPB class mail and baggage MU cars
and combines - possibly they used the facilities
being addressed in this thread posting. It would be interesting to say the least! Anybody have any
ideas on this....and yes...the freight was handled
on street level above the subway portion to effect direct material transfer to street level vehicles-as was all rail service on street-level before the subway and electrification process was started.
Howdy folks. There was indeed an upper level at the Flatbush Ave. Terminal, and the skeleton of it was visible for many years until the station was removed and the current renovation work undertaken. As late as the mid to late fifties and early sixties you could see the connection, but the tracks were removed from it. On what little was left over the yard tracks you could see a siding on the elevated structure and I believe a couple of boxcars were spotted there from time to time. All of that came down, and then the terminal was demolished for renovation work.
Both Bob Anderson and myself (in our youths) recall seeing a steam engine and tender on a section of the elevated strutcture that remained over on the south side of Atlantic Avenue between 5th Ave and Carlton. This would have been sometime in the mid/late 60's. Would you have any info on this?
BMTman
Steam in the middle/late 60's. Unless it was BEDT, which had only saddletankers, steam had disappeared from just about everywhere that wasn't miles away from developed areas. The big roads were 100% diesels, except the miles with third rail or overhead.
Only steam was fantrips, and those never got off B&O/Reading in the east.
This sitting unused up on an El structure. Yes, I am familiar with the BEDT, but what I recall was a larger loco of LIRR vintage.
BMTman
Doug: You did say that this was the early 1960's didn't you? If this was around the time of the New York World's Fair either in 1964 or 1965 I may have an answer for you. During one of these two seasons the famous Civil War engine "General" was brought up to New York. She ran under her own power from Oak Point Yard to the World's Fair. Its just possible for the return trip that they may have sent her down to the Atlantic Avenue Terminal for a time. I can't positively say this is what you saw but I do have a photo of the engine in the Oak Point Yard.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sorry, but I cannot help you with that one. You might see some of the detail of the area in Ron Ziel's book Steel Rails to the Sunrise, which is a good resource for those who want information on the LIRR. They do have a photograph of the yard in Brooklyn near the old terminal. I refer you to page 276 in the book, but you may have trouble visualizing some details.
I didn't know that either, but it makes sense. There are many pillars in the LIRR station that suggest that there were more tracks that once ran between them.
It's too late now, but till last night there was this VERY NICE item directly related to this thread on ebay:
LARGE LIRR FOLD OUT MAP FLATBUSH A TO JAMAICA
Item # 1163203260
Check it out under 'completed items' under LIRR.
BMTman
hey thats great that there will be a Bus Operator test next year. I might take it for practice, but they won't call me even if I pass. My dad is a B/O at QV depot, and the requirements are 3 years with a clean license. I am just getting my License this summer!
So then go for Track Worker.
Uh..Uh..Uh..isn't this Subtalk?
Although sometimes being a little harsh is bad, I sometimes think it's worth it. There is a conductor on the D line, who doesn't play around and who really looks out for the passengers. He screams at people he knows are holding the doors for the heck of it. When the trains is too packed he lets the potential passengers know to step back and just wait. He will get on their cases for holding the trains. This is great though, my train is always on schedual, or ahead of time.
They should all be that good.
E_DOG
Get his ID #, and write a letter of commendation for him to the transit authority. If he's doing a very good job, and helping you, you can help him too.
Over the years I've called in Apple Awards for several bus drivers, and a couple of conductors.
One in particular: on the L train; an older African-American who acted like a veteran railroad porter. Announced all the stops, said "yes sir" and "Yes maam," and stepped out of his cab to take an elderly woman by the arm and help her walk safely off the train. He pointed her to the exit, got back on the train and off we went to the next stop. I managed to get the number off his cap and wrote a letter for him. That guy was a prince!
That C/R on the L line retired about 3 years ago.
When a C/R first gets hired, he/she gets a file number (seniority number) that usually starts in the 2800-3100 range.
When this L line C/R left, his file number was 7.
Thanks for the update!
His dedication and class was a model for others to emulate.
Moments before rush-hour Wednesday I was
casually observing trains entering and leaving
(terminal name omitted) when a C/R closed
the doors on it's northbound consist and the T/O
glanced over for indication (ready to depart
the station)... just as he was about to give power,
the TOWER Master blurt out on the station PA:
"Hey, northbound... where you goin'??...
Open it up!!.. Do not clear, northbound!"
Instantly, the C/R re-opened all doors and the train
sat another 6 to 8 minutes before it's holding lights
cleared and the departure bell ('DING!') sounded...
Lemme guess: South Ferry or Chambers St? SF doesn't have a departure bell, but Chambers doesn't use holding lights.
Chambers is treated as the terminal (on the local only). It has the green anti-holding lights and the bell.
I glad you brought that up. I have passed through Chambers Street many time and did not understand what was up with those green lights (at least on the uptown side) where you normally find orange holding lights. Are they really called "anti-holding lights"? and in any event what purpose to they serve. Holding lights obviously "hold" a train for schedule adjustments, but why would you need a light to tell the train crew not to hold. "Not Holding (leaving the station expeditiously) is normal procedure, at least in theory.
Thanks for any info on this......
Piggo
No, AFAIK, I coined the "anti-holding lights" term myself.
They're generally found at terminals. The train stays in the station with the doors open until the green lights go on and a bell rings.
By the way, fellas... the terminal
I was referring to is not SOUTH FERRY
and is not CHAMBERS STREET...
AFAIK, SOUTH FERRY is a loop... thus
does not have a specific "northbound" track.
Good, educated guesses, however.
Lights on, bell ringing ... don't tell me the conductor is required to drool. :)
Only if it's a prewar train.:-)
Heh. Are there any others worth riding? I wonder if Pavlov is a TSS?
They're called departure lights. At 71/Continental, for the first time ever, there are now separate departure and holding lights. There are separate switches for each in the dispatcher's office. The departure lights are at the C/R positions only, the holding lights are still at their random locations along the platform. Now, however, I can no longer get a heads up on the departure from my favorite location (2nd to last car on R, last car on G). The light there is now the holding light.
They are called starting lights, not departure lights. And they are not at the C/R postions only. Some are at the front and rear of the platform as well.
At 71/Continental (which is where I was referring to) they are at the conductor position only. Sorry for the confusion.
Thx for the correction on starting lights.
They are also called starting lights.
Should've checked SubBus' post.
The conductor on that rerouted Q express I took last fall made this comment at 34th st: "Lady, if you're not sure if this is your train, it probably isn't." When we got going, he was shaking his head as he stepped out of the cab. We struck up a conversation, whereupon I remarked, "Hey, I know where I'm going. It's nice to get an express along Broadway."
I bet he laughed, or was real serious. These conductors dont play around, unless the have a game boy to keep them happy.
Have you seen the snickers crunch commercial that he kept closing the doors on the annoying things? It was an R-68 body, but it was different inside. Now that conductor..has issues lol.
As I descended to the BMT platform at Times Square, a train of R-32's (lead car 3566) was on the platform. I needed the R, but since both the N and the R run R-32's, I figured I'd get on before it was too late, and if it was an N I'd still have a chance to transfer to the R for the next few stops.
I sat down and looked at the route sign, and here's what I saw:
Eastern Pkwy, Bklyn
Crescent St, Bklyn
B Broadway/West End (yes, with a yellow B)
One of the passengers, trying to figure out where he was going, noticed the sign announcing the upcoming route changes at the other end of the car. I guess he figured they had already gone into effect, so he began studying the map on the wall (which had been updated). I hope he eventually figured out what was going on.
(It turns out it was an N. All the other signs, at least the ones I saw, were correct.)
Yes, I took pictures (inside and out).
You think that's strange? Last night (Wednesday), at about 6:40 P.M., I saw an M Train on the Sixth Avenue uptown express track! Soon after that, I saw an R Train on the same track! Does anyone here know what those trains were doing there, and where the M Train ended up?
- Lyle Goldman
Was that the day there was a sick passenger at Grand Street? Perhaps the M and the R were sent over the bridge immediately afterwards to help clear up the crowds. (Just a guess.) Or maybe there was a temporary problem in the Montague tube that forced trains over the bridge.
M train probably went to Queensbridge, reversed, and ran lite down 6th to B'wy-Lafayette, where it switched to the Nassau line into Essex, where it then went back into service.
I thought the connection from B-L to Essex was temporarily without track.
If so, then it probably made its way back to Brooklyn via either side of the bridge or the Montague, reversed at Pacific, and went back home from there.
I know the connections to 2nd ave middle are useless at the moment, are you sure that isn't the track work you're referring to?
I know only what I read here. I think I read that the track between B-L and Essex was temporarily removed. I may have misread.
The switches leading from Broadway Lafayette to Essex have been replaced alongside the interlocking at 2nd Ave. I'm not sure these tracks are operable yet, but they went out of service around March.
The service pattern the original poster alluded to indicates a problem in the Montague tunnel. When this happens, N's are turned at Pacific, the R runs across the bridge and up 6th Ave and 53rd. St. to Queens, and M's are converted to B's, running to the B's northern terminal.
The Nassau connection is accessed from the F (outer) tracks along Houston St.
I know. But since that track project is so close to the Nassau connection, I was wondering if David or his source on the board got confused.
I can attest personally to the severed connection between Bway Lafayette and Essex. Last April, while riding an F train through this area, the uptown track coming down from Essex St. was totally severed with the regular local (F line) track (and lit up as bright as day as areas undergoing construction often are). This entire interlocking is being replaced.
Wow! If they did that, they should have run it as a one-time-only (K) train!
:-) Andrew
Only us railgeeks or oldtimers actually remember such a service. It would probably astound those who saw it, and even demands for it's return.
A couple of days ago, I was riding a northbound (F) on my commute home, and at 34th St I was astonished to see an (R) train on the express track. It turned out to be bad news, since the rerouted (R) trains caused a long delay on the (E) and (F), and that very (R) went in front of my train.
:-) Andrew
Ehhh... not only did I see this car at Pacific St.
Wednesday eve... but I also think I saw the fellow
who changed the scrolls as it was entering the station.
Nobody bothered fixing the signs in the morning? In the lead car, yet?
Schmaybe it was running all night sans
downtime overnight in yard storage?
Gotta hand it to ye, this one stumps me too...
Considering there were days a T/O or C/R would
get written up for incorrect signage on cars
within your running consist....
Then there was that train of BMT standards on the Canarsie line all those years ago with wrong signs on the car we were on. I started cranking the route sign until it got to "Local"; didn't go further because my mother was freaking out.
Yes - a yellow B.
The last time they closed the north side of the MB back in the late 80's they did a B and D split service similar to what will occur in just over a week. But rather than use new letters they had 2 B and D services (6th Av - Orange, Broadway - Yellow). The Broadway trains operated from 57th St/7th Av and the 6th Av trains terminated at 34th St/6th Av.
That gives you an idea of how old the roll signs on that car are.
It's funny how the yellow B and D signs were put on all the GOH'ed cars....just in time to see service restored to normal. For most of the 86-88 reroutes, the trains were never signed correctly. The R68's on the D did have the yellow signs from day 1, but everything else didn't. The cruddy R42's running on both northern portions never had correct signage either. The D was always signed up as "205th St/Brighton Beach" and the B was "168th St/Bay Parkway", even though both terminated at 34th. The 6th Ave shuttle always had the sign "special" as it's southern terminal.
What's really weird about that isn't so much the yellow (B), but the fact that both of the "terminals" were from the (J)(Z) line.
:-) Andrew
Yes -- and only a few stops apart.
Weirder yet--Crescent Street is "north" of Eastern Pkwy. Crescent Street should have been on top.
No doubt, this was some kids doing some random tinkering with the rollsigns.
:-) Andrew
>>>No doubt, this was some kids doing some random tinkering with the rollsigns. <<<
Even more likely that it was some foaming railfan.
Peace,
ANDEE
R-32 rollsigns are impossible to tinker with without the proper equipment. That's not to say that such equipment is impossible to find, but it's not like the Redbird rollsigns. (When I rode the 5-that-became-a-2-at-South-Ferry train during the GO a few months ago, the rollsigns were quite varied. I helped make them more varied.)
You're a naughty one.
Anyway, not all redbird rollsigns have the knobs on them, and I know I've seen some R32 rollsigns that do.
In fact, once I was on an R32 (E) train where the rollsign was set on "(H) Rockaway Shuttle". There was a knob right there, and I would have changes it but there were passengers in the way.
:-) Andrew
You're a naughty one.
It's not like the signs were correct. The trains were running south on the 5 and north on the 2. Other trains were running north on the 4/5 and south on the 2. The T/O changed the head end sign but nobody bothered with the side signs.
Anyway, not all redbird rollsigns have the knobs on them, and I know I've seen some R32 rollsigns that do.
All of the mainline Redbirds, IINM, have knobs. I was surprised to see a knob (only one of three) on the 7 yesterday -- I've never seen knobs on the WF cars before. I've also never seen knobs on the R-32's, but I'll take your word for it.
Here is a picture of one on an R-38...
Is my screwdriver "proper equipment", as it works just fine in scrolling R-32 signs...
I can also use my bowling ball key, but after turning it a few times my hand starts to hurt like hell.
The extent of my R-32/38 sign changing has been to change:
(C) 8 ave / Fulton | < C > Conc / 8 ave / Fulton
(Q) Broadway / Brighton | (Q) 6av / Brighton
(Q) 6av / Brigthon | (Q) Broadway / Brighton (it was rerouted)
(R) Queens Blvd / Broadway / 4th ave | (R) Queens Blvd / Broadway (and vice versa)
(A) Washington Hts / 8av / Fulton st | (H) Rockaways shuttle (it was running on the Rockaway Blvd - Far Rock shuttle)
(A) Washington Hts / 8av / Fulton st | (^) JFK Express (it was an A to Howard Beach due to a GO on the Lefferts leg)
Shuttle | (S) 63rd st Shuttle
Come to think of it, I'm surprised the rollsigns even have those destinations! Eastern Pkwy I could maybe see, but Crescent St? Do they have, say, 63rd Drive in there too?
:-) Andrew
No 63rd drive, but I have seen Union Turnpike in there. There's also "NORTH TERMINAL" and "SOUTH TERMINAL."
East (north) of Crescent st. there is a third track that can be used to turn trains.
sounds cool
Broadway Booklyn local #14 trains used to terminate at Crescent St. during PM rush hours.
some ran to Rockaway Pkwy also
Yep, they sure did. Some went only as far as Atlantic Ave. Check out the photo in the R-16 section of a #14 train at Canal St. with an Atlantic Ave. destination sign.
what is the requirement for Trackworker
I taken the Track Worker Exam back in 1998. I was 16Yrs old and in 10th grade. There where no Education or Experience Requirments. Just put in an Application. I got a 74% and list No.9000. I still have not been called but I really don't need it since I got what I wanted.
I'm under the impression that the number of R142s is about 1200 units, whereas there were (until a few days ago) over 2000 Redbirds. Therefore, not ALL Redbirds would be eliminated this year. Is this right?
If so, does anyone know which lines will retain them for the time being? At the time fo the 142 order, the newspapers reported that the #7 would have them for the longest, but from what I'm reading here, that's not correct.
I'm betting on the #4 &5....
AFAIK there are/were 1400 Redbirds, not 2000.
I guess that would allow complete elination of the Redbird fleet this year, then...
The last of the `birds are scheduled to go bye-bye when the supplemental R-142 order arrives, though it would be nice if the MTA would keep 100-200 or so of the trains that are in the best condition in order to boost rush hour service.
There should be a net fleet zise increase of 150 cars once all R142 orders are complete, which I think is still insufficient. I think another 100-200 Redbirds should be cherry-picked for mothballing however so as not to have another R30-GOH-to-scrap situation.
your right i think they should keep some that are in good condition.even it might take alot more money to keep the birds longer
Yes, I recall some Redbirds in superb condition on the #2 and #7 line. I keenly observed how fast and how smoothly the doors close, how smoothly it starts up and slows down, and if the brakes screech a lot or not.
The best (darn..I forgot the type) Redbird I know was on the #2 line (#9119) [That's what I remember because I was getting off with my dad at Penn Sta. around 12:40AM and my eyes were tired.
Boy, this car had it all. Smooth door closings, smooth startups and brakes, and I also noticed that the electric motor under this car was recently replaced with a modern one that is used on the R46's.
And also, some selective W/F cars are working at an above average condition on the #7.
:)
Railfan Pete.
That's an interesting point. I wonder, do the people here who complain the most about the Redbirds 4/5/6 riders? I did notice yesterday that the Redbirds rolling through Grand Central, especially on the 5, were in pretty sorry shape.
well i think the #5 has the oldest train cars the R26/r28/r29 and now more r33s because of the #2
9119 is an R-33.
All of the Redbirds are scheduled to vacate the normal revenue service on the subway system by the end of this year.
I haven't gotten a report yet on the 7's as to how long their Redbirds will last, but:
The Redbirds on the 2 line will all retire out by the end of 2001.
The R142's on this line are manufactured by Bombardier, Ltd.
The Redbirds and the R62A fleet will all be replaced by R142's on the Pelham Local line (#6) train.
The R142's on this line are manufactured by Kawasaki Ind.
The remaining R142 fleet will most likely be stored in the various rail yards throughout NYC and some will spill over to the #5 line.
I have no clue yet as to the remaining Redbirds retiring on the #4, #5, and the #7 lines.
I have been reported by my parent reading a newspaper stating that the Redbirds (W/F cars) will sadly drown in the Atlantic Ocean. The experts say that these 'underwater' trains will provide some benefit to the fish and wildlife living on the ocean floor.
Any of the stated facts are subject to correction.
I advise expert people to add to or correct the information given here.
With all gratitude,
Railfan Pete.
i think the #4 will get some off the r142a option if not all.
the #3 should get all of the r142 order.giving its r62 to the #7
the #5 should get r142s when the the #2 is all r142s
But, the 3 line will keep all of its R62A cars until past the year 2020. The 2 line's Redbirds will have to be replaced, pushing all of the Redbirds out onto the yards and for sale.
Preferably, the R62A cars on the Pelham line will be available for the 7 train.
i dont think #6 has enough trains for the whole #7 line
would anyone want to spend 212 dollars on a rustbirds. even it is a good idea
I really don't care what the TA "wants" to do. They have overscrapped before and they will do ot again unless they are forcibly stopped.
Have any of you ever taken a morning N with a conductor that talks too much? He says jolly things... for instance, when we were at courst st. he said "good morning, welcome aboard the N train, nice to see everyone's pumped for the new day"... and at whitehall "this is whitehall st. you can transfer here for ferries to SI, ellis island and the statue of liberty, one of our nations monuments" wow, me and my friend were laughing... also as we were leaving Pacific on our way to work on a morning of massive delays, he said "um... we neglected to metion... (by this time me and my friend were soooo afraid because we were already late) that the next stop is Dekalb Ave." Which qas quite dandy, but it had us bnoth scared... Another thing he said was on the way to Courtlandt St. he siad "prepare for the ride (i was thinking that he'd say the ride of your life) to have many delays", what a disappointment. Anyway, if you guys ever see him... get his ID and write a letter for him! :)
Speaking of ferries... a 5 line C/R actually
mentioned "Staten Island Ferry" as a possible
transfer from Bowling Green Station--- I never
really noticed they mentioned the SI Ferry before.
I say it every time I pass BowlingGreen when on the 4 or 5
Well, the SI Ferry is really a short walk from Bowling Green, so there is some validity to that statement. OK, maybe not THAT short, but not excessively long, either.
It seems that there are a few Harry Nugent wannabes out there. They do say that imitation is the best form of flattery.
I wonder if this is the same guy who says, "Good MAWNing, How AW-you," in his thick Brooklyn accent before proceeding with the rest of the announcement. I haven't heard him in a while, but I take the 'N' less often these days.
Did someone say R-33s, 8934-35 and 9164-65 were in dead storage?
Apparently not. These have returned home.
Also, 7936-37 haven't been put on the scrapper's list yet. These were still runnning on the 5 when I spotted them yesterday. They need to be taken off the disposition list at least for the moment.
-Stef
Guys the scrapping has been put on hold while they fix the a/c on the redbirds on the 7 ,thats why the big shift from Pelham to Dyre to Main st. If you noticed
Well I had a great time. I met Thurston at the eastern end of the Main street station where we boarded a 7 train. Unfortunately Howard just missed us. The ride on the 7 was local all the way and took 45 minutes to Times Square. Fortunately the Railfan window was available. The T/O was very gutsy with the timers in the Steinway tubes, we went through there pretty fast. Even though the GT's in there are far apart many T/O's are scardeycats and slow for each one to clear way ahead of it. At 42nd we just missed an R142 2 train but a 9 train came in on the local which we took to Times Square. We met up with another Metrocard collector, where they swapped some stuff.
We then took an A to Jay street, we waited out an R44 for an R38. Even with a 44 in front of us most of the way the Cranberry tubes were quick. Also there's no "cat's eye" signals for those tubes. At Jay we got off where we walked around to the Livingston street TA HQ. Nice building, we didn't get in to see the simulator though. I never been to thew Fulton Mall area but it's really nice. Much more spacious and cleaner than Flushing.
In Burger King we met up with Howard and Doug, and someone else who's name escapes me. The real fun started at Jay street. Because of gapping the first R38 A train to Far Rock was PACKED. Literally a sardine can. We were lucky to squeeze on to that packed train. Crowded it may have been but the express was very fast, local stations were a blur. It emptied out alot at Bway-ENY.
The ride on the Rockaway flats was nice from the front window of the R38. Once you get on the concrete viaduct it's really like an LIRR line. Complete with LIPA subtransmission lines. There's only a few main sets of lines serving the peninsula, which could explain the frequent power outages in the area. We get to Mott in time to make the 7:20 N33 to Long Beach. Far Rockaway doesn't look like too nice of an area, but once you get into Nassau county and Atlantic Beach it looks nice. The bus we had (301) was running pretty rough even though it was one of the newer ones. And there was no A/C.
We go though Long Beach west which is pretty nice but there's alot of traffic lights. At Long Beach we get off and walk to a bar on the boardwalk where I opted to be sober (I actually never drank a beer). But I did have water, which drove me to the bathroom. I left early with Howard since he was making a 8:53pm LIRR to Valley stream, for me an 8:45pm N15 to Hempstead. I said goodbye to Howard as I walked fast into Wendy's only to find the bathroom door locked. With the LIRR station also closed I had to hold it in. Maybe if establishments let people use the restroom it would cut down on public urination. My N15 bus 310 had no A/C and left 5 minutes late. Even at that late hour it was a slow ride, the driver waited for people running after the bus and such, but sped along the way many a time. By the time I got to Hempstead I had to really go so I ran into the terminal used the restroom and just made an N40 to Mineola (also no A/C). Well I guess you really didn't need A/C tonight. Well I was just glad I got to use a restroom after holding it in for such a long ride. While waiting at Mineola I saw two old LIRR diesel engines pass by together, not towing anything. My train to Sea Cliff was only running a few minutes late, coming at 10:24pm. Made it home by 11pm, after a rather brisk 15 minute walk from the train station (normally takes 30 but I walked pretty fast).
Well I had a great time today and hope to see the pictures soon, also saw an old fashioned two aspect traffic signal in Far Rockaway.
also saw an old fashioned two aspect traffic signal in Far Rockaway.
I'm glad they're still there. I didn't see them the last time I was out there. Did you notice that the bulbs have been replaced with LEDs?
Actually I didn't notice the LED's. I wonder if there any of these signals left on Long Island.
I drove the Rock Freeway about a month ago for the first time in about 10 years. I thought that all of the 2 aspect signals were gone, so it's good to hear there's at least one still functioning -- though I missed it (that's not so good... perhaps I should pay more attention while driving or stick to the trains). The "Freeway" is now one lane in each direction, which I'm sure has been a major safety enhancement. When did that happen?
CG
It used to be two eastbound lanes under the subway and two westbound lanes north of it. Are both directions now crammed under the subway?
There's one eastbound lane under the subway and one westbound lane where there used to be 2. In each case there is a wide area of roadway painted with zebra stripes. Very similar to what was done on the Interboro (now Jackie Robinson) about 15 years ago.
CG
...and undone a few years later.
I wonder why this change was made. IIRC, left turns weren't allowed at most intersections. Are they allowed now, with left turn bays?
Yes, they now have left turn lanes at the intersections and the signals have left-turn arrows.
CG
I'm not sure why the change was necessary, but at least it makes some sense.
BTW, the picture I posted is from 1998. There were lots of them then. I don't know what's left now, although I didn't see any on my stroll through Edgemere.
The two-aspect signals are gone from the Freeway, but still reign along Edgemere Ave (with LEDs). I think they're gone from Beach Channel Dr as well. Liberty Ave in Ozone Park still has them, or at least still did a few months ago.
The City of Long Beach had them thru the 1970's as well.
Also, the LIRR Long Beach branch had color light signals thru the 1970's. That is becuase the PRR did a resignalling job at the same time as they redid the NY&LB. CNJ engineers were not qualified on position-light signals.
In Burger King we met up with Howard and Doug, and someone else who's name escapes me.
That was me :). Great trip report! The A certainly does empty out at Bway Junction.
Other notable sites along the way included the giant spider hanging from a signal tower on the abandoned Far Rockaway Branch ROW, a pair of R-32 A trains heading in the other direction, and a gaggle of track workers putting up red and white "Danger" tape (rather leisurely, I might add) on the fence along the test track. Our group was also able to be of assistance to a young female tourist from San Francisco headed to JFK; I'm sure she'll be taking a cab on her next trip :). The T/O was very friendly and experienced, and he even voluntarily opened his door to chat.
If anyone is in the Long Beach area and has the opportunity to see a band called Tahoe, I urge you to pass it up :). We left the bar (Turquoise) shortly after 9:00; Thurston and BMTman departed on LI Bus while I opted to explore beautiful downtown Long Beach before the next train back to the City at 9:57.
BTW, I take it you're referring to the Wendy's next to the station? It's kept unlocked and no one bothered me for not buying anything; it was most likely occupied when you tried :).
Yeah I guess someone was in the restroom at Wendy's but I had to catch the bus so I couldn't wait. Usually the LIRR station there is open most of the time, but I think it closes at 8pm. Also there's no Ticket Vending Machine there, so you have to buy your ticket on the train when the window is closed. It's kinda of odd there's no ticket machine there. I wonder why?
By not having a ticket machine at the station, the LIRR can hit you up for the higher-fare when you make on-board ticket purchases...
BMTman
I thought the LIRR waives the surcharge if there was no way to buy a ticket at the station.
It does.
Well that is simply not fair. The on board ticket purchasing fee should only be charged when the ticket window is open or a TVM has been available and working.
There isn't much need for a ticket machine at Long Beach. The station is from 6 AM until 7 PM, 7 days a week. Westbound ridership is pretty light during the evenings and overnight, so there's plenty of time to sell tickets on board -- especially with the slow ride from Long Beach to Island Park and the distance from I.P. to Oceanside.
CG
A very good report I don't have much to add at this point ... three of us took photos so when their available we'll make a "official" trip report.
The interesting thing about this group was that the Busfans out numbered the subway fans ... 3 to 2. Throughout the trip Howard, John & Mike were noticing this or that bus, so I was surprised when we walked vs. took City of Long Beach bus to the beach.
The night was just perfect & we enjoyed each others company, e.g. on the N33 we took over the back of the bus.
The three of us left at the end, BMTman, Mike & I arrived at the LIRR about quarter after 9. Mike waited about 3/4 of an hour for the train, the BMTman & I waited 1/4 hour for the N15. I got off en-route, the BMTman's connection to the N4 was waiting for him at Rockville Centre. A few more stops & he was home too.
For those who missed out & want a 2nd section ... e-mail me. If I get at least 1/2 dozen who are serious about going in August I do it again.
P.S. When I got home my wife said the office had called, our Depot Computer was down. I told the VP that I had just completed a 7 hour commute ... after I explained he laughed.
Mr t__:^)
The interesting thing about this group was that the Busfans out numbered the subway fans ... 3 to 2
Hey... I thought we were all fans of both :).
To summarize the whole trip: the weather was perfect, the calamari was decent, the band sucked, and the company was excellent. I hope we can get a bigger group together for an August trip!
I concur! Excellent weather -- almost Fall-like. The food and drink were good and the company.
And of course our mutual good fortune in getting a ride out to Mott Ave. on an R-38!
Hope to see you guys on the next trip...
BMTman
Well I'm a railfan and a busfan, and I'm partial to the trains of course. Yeah I liked the trip alot, and will gladly do it again weather permitting. The A to Far Rockaway is one of my favorite subway routes, because it offers so much variety. You go under the river, express on an IND trunk subway, up to an elevated and at grade, plus the fantastic views around Broad Channel, straight aways, and reminders of the LIRR. Did I mention the speed...
Anyone interested in going on a Sunday?
I'm game -- pick a date.
BMTman
How about August 19?
This was a great trip; the weather and our luck couldn't have been better. Well, maybe mine could have been- even though I got to Main Street Flushing at the agreed-upon 3:15, I somehow missed Thurston and Qtraindash7. We did find each other at the Burger King in downtown Brooklyn.
I took the whole day off, and rode many buses earlier in the day both for fun, and in an attempt to expedite my trip home from Long Beach that evening (detailed on Bustalk). Along with several Bronx buses that morning, I got one R-142A from Pelham Bay to Parkchester (only because I missed the bus I really wanted to take from Pelham to Flushing). In numerous earlier observations from Westchester Avenue below, I saw mostly 142As, a couple of 62As and one classic (8500 series) Redbird go by. Passing a mostly empty Westchester Yard, just one set of 'birds could be seen along with a couple of the other classes.
After not finding Thurston, I rode the '7' all the way to Times Square, a local run that seems very slow when you've been riding that line's express to work every day for many years. At TS, I attempted to get an R-142 to Brooklyn, but every '2' I saw in either direction was a Redbird. This was also the case last Saturday- yet a couple of weekends before that I got 142s with relative ease. Have they been pulled off for defects or testing?
Got off at Borough Hall, not the easiest station to exit the '2' and '3' from. From the Brooklyn-bound platform, you have to go up a flight, through the passageway to the back of the Manhattan-bound '4/5' platform, halfway to the front, and finally up to the street. Saw Thurston and Qtraindash7 as soon as I entered the King. Doug BMT Man and our other Subtalker (God- why can't I remember his NAME?) joined us shortly.
We headed for Jay Street- Thurston and Qtraindash7 got a head start and saw two R38s pass by on the 'A' while waiting for the rest of us. We were worried the odds would go against us and the next Far Rockaway train would be a 44, but clean living prevailed, and it was a 38- extremely crowded, but a 38. It was the first train in a while, so while crowded, ran the Fulton express extremely fast. We lost half our load at ENY, which freed the railfan window for us to view the yard leads from Euclid Avenue to the portal, Liberty Junction and the petering out of the old Ozone Park branch.
For the past 15 years, every time I went out to Rockaway, it was always on an R44, so having the front window was a real treat. Many workmen were on the test track on both sides of Broad Channel but the train didn't slow down at all. We came precariously close to anhilating some waterfowl, but they all got out of the way with a split second to spare. We had to take the second bridge very slowly, as well as the curve past the Hammels Wye, but after B67 picked up speed nicely. We were able to chat with the train operator along the way. As the exit at Mott Avenue is in the front, it remained rather crowded, but no one seemed to exit at the stations before then-at least not from the front car.
There were some new multi-family homes built between the ROW and the boardwalk somewhere in the Beach 60s, similar to others built in Brownsville and the South Bronx. Other than that, the depressing wasteland still exists. Interestingly, we saw two FULL R-32 consists signed as 'A's going Manhattan-bound; one or both appeared to be out of service. I haven't seen a pure 32 'A' in at least two years.
After a few photos at the terminal, we went downstairs to get the N33. We noticed that a part of the original 1930s (?) elevated LIRR structure was still visible in the form of much older concrete that extended from the structure that was modernized in 1956-58 for the TA acquisition. An interesting bus ride to Long Beach followed- among the sights were an extremely rare two-level traffic signal at Beach 20th and New Haven. There had been others in the Rockaways visible from the subway, including at the very complex Beach Channel/RockawayBeach/Edgemere/Seagirt/Beach 35th intersection, but they had been replaced.
We shared a drink at a nice Boardwalk bar that had been packed back when I took the family to Long Beach back on a hot Sunday in April. It was so clear that the Marine Parkway Bridge and Sandy Hook were clearly visible across the bay. I unfortunately had to leave early to catch the 8:53 LIRR to Valley Stream, where I had parked earlier that afternoon. Knowing we'd be out late I wanted to get home fast, and felt finding legal parking in Long Beach midday would be difficult- hence Valley Stream, a mere twenty-minute drive to Flushing. It's faster by train than to drive between the Beach and the Stream.
The 8:53 didn't open its doors until about 8:50. I figured the cars closest to Park Avenue- the rear ones- would open, but it was three cars towards the middle. The building was closed, and there was no TVM, which was good because I only had twenties. The train was expectedly slow over Reynolds Channel, where the last stages of a beautiful sunset were visible. Between Lynbrook and Valley Stream, two Babylon trains sped by on the right (one diesel), a very bizarre sight made possible by the confluence of two branches and lack of switches east of VS.
I was the only one to get off at Valley Stream, whose platform and streets seemed very dark and quiet at 9:13. While there were high-density vapor orange streetlights, the large distance between them and a heavy tree cover made it kinda eerie. But I made the four-block walk to the car without a problem.
Again, a great trip, even with just five of us. Nice ride, sights and conversation. Oh, and thanks for the beer. Next time it's my treat.
and our other Subtalker (God- why can't I remember his NAME?)
Especially after I've posted three times in this thread! (j/k; I'm sure you started writing before I posted :).)
I guess I should have picked a less complicated handle... :)
>>>Well I had a great time today and hope to see the pictures soon, also saw an old fashioned two aspect
traffic signal in Far Rockaway. <<<
They're on this page...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/LAMPS/Stoplights/stoplights.html
Hot tip from another message board. Very detailed CTA ridership figures are hidden away on a little nook of the web! (actually they're in pdf format, whatever)
Click here
If this doesn't work go to transitchicago.com, click on News, click on What's New, there are about a hundred links on this page look for the one called "ridership figures".
There really aren't any surprises, except I'd think O'Hare would have more traffic. Clark/Lake is the busiest station, but I'd put an asterisk by it, after that it's 95th. the slowest looks like Kildare on the Douglas. Hopefully that infusion of federal bucks will work some magic.
That's a great report. Thanks for posting.
I don't know the first thing about Chicago transit, but it's exactly the kind of information I've been looking for about the NYC Subways and LIRR for years. I'm sure the MTA produces the report, but I've never come across a copy.
CG
When returning home from the WTC this evening, I got off the PATH at Penn Station at about 8:00, planning to catch the 8:10 subway car to Franklin to make the last #92 bus at 8:35.
Well I went to the subway entrance and the gate was down. There was a sign on the gate "Go bus Bus Lane 1A"
WHAT?!? They stopped running shuttle bus service weeknights a long time ago, restricting it only to weekends!
Well I went to the bus lane and there was a lot of confusion. Many of the people were not familier with the bus service and were wondering if it stopped at the subway stops, how long did it take, etc.
Well there was a bus there (14XX, forgot exactly) signed on as the #7, but the driver was nowhere to be found. Finally at 8:10 he shows up, gets in the bus . . . and drives off!
8:15 another bus comes, #1349, and everybody crowds around the door, pushing and shoving. I know there's no way in hell I'm making the #92, so I don't even get myself worked up. I just got the #74 and walked about a mile to my house.
Oh, and the driver was not familier with the route of the subway bus, so me and a couple others assisted him!
I noticed that all the buses running on the subway shuttle tonight were from Orange Garage. Normally, it runs out of Big Tree (Metro D's).
I checked NJT's website when I got home to see if they had any explanation but I found none.
Anybody know what happened to the subway on Thursday evening?
Right now at Ebay for 300$ you can bid on an old redbird rollsign with the grey 5 and yellow six. Who is willing to pay that much for an old ROllsign
I suppose that also contains an orange 1 and 7, a magenta 4, a turquoise-blue 3 and (presumably) a green SS – that, besides the always-red 2. Might that sign (circa 1976) have been from one of the recently-scrapped cars (7870? 8757? 8689?)?
But as for the price: I assume some dedicated soul who really cares about such history would pay whatever it takes. As for me . . .
Too rich for my blood, I'm afraid.
Oh, and by the way, all I saw on eBay which is close to $300 was a four-car model train of R-21’s. Would you be so kind as to provide the link for what you described?
Does anyone have a contact in the MTA to purchase a redbird (R33/R36)? I heard from someone that you can obtain one for free if you pay for its removal. It actually saves the city money because it is one less car they have to pay to have discarded. I am serious about purchasing a piece of NYC subway history. If anyone can help, it would be greatly appreciated.
Where would you keep it?
I have just enough land to put it on.
This talk makes me wish I still lived in Mississippi. Back there we'd call a Redbird on a peice of land a "starter home."
:)
Mark
Heh. You don't have to go back home to old Miss ... come on UPSTATE to beautiful Rensselaer county, home of the doublewide standards! :)
Hey Selkirk! Sounds like you are near Albany? I used to work in
Watervliet & Green Island right outside of Troy. Oh yeah, I remember now, Selkirk is just south of Albany. I just looked it up on Yahoo.
Funny how being away from the area for 30 years clouds your thinking!
Chuck Greene
Heh. Staying *IN* the area clouds it even worse. Yeah, I'm a refugee from the Paturkey Farm ... worked for the Cable Commission until Paturkey killed it, then went to work for the Department of Public Shafting (better known as the "PSC" which once regulated the subways) and finally had my fill of daily musical chairs. So the wife and I started a software company. Since we already had a home here and you can do this "internet thing" anywhere from up here to an island in the south Pacific, we've hung out here.
But the general area continues to deteriorate. :)
Don't you miss being a T/O? Wouldn't you like to motor a R-142?
Maybe you could sneak down to NYC , find some motorman's duds, and convince another T/O to let you take it for a "spin".
Good luck to you and your spouse with the software company!
Chuck Greene
Thank ya! No, I actually washed out as a T/O back in the R1/9 days. A layup got away from me owing to a mechanical failure, but since I was a probie, it was the street even though the investigation determined it was a brake pipe failure that caused me to hit another train at 3 MPH rather than "operator error" ... I wasn't the same after that incident anyway so it was time for me to move on. But the "bug" bit, I got a gig doing it and I don't foam quite as much as I did before I went to work for the "ta" ... heh.
As to the newer trains, I've played with mighty diesels of more recent vintage with that same "joystick" operating mode and frankly, I like having separate brake and power handles, helps you remember what you're doing ... when this (ahem) "economy" of ours turns around in 3-1/2 years (hopefully sooner) I'm hoping to have a little spare money and a lot of spare time so I can finally make my pilgrimage to Branford, toss in some money, help out with some electrical whatever and earn my handles there on one of the cars I remember how to operate. Some day.
Look out, Kev. I still say they won't be able to pry you out of 1689's cab once you get to Branford.:-) You'll be saying, "My train, my train, MY TRAIN!!!!!"
Heh. Had I not done time with the "ta" that'd be a safe bet. Sure I'd love to take her for a spin (since I know what "tipping speed" is for one of those cars (actually kinda hard to get to on NYCTA curves) but from what I've heard of the S curve midway through Branford's run, I might be able to get it to coast on four wheels on the bottom side. :)
Sure it'd be cool to yank handles on that baby ... but I'd be willing to give it up. For me, it's more like getting behind the wheel of a Studebaker ... it'd be fun having not seen one in a while. But I wouldn't want to take it home either. Heh.
The last couple of years our Fall MOW week-end has been devoted to changing ties on the curve. It requires a "crew" because you also have to un-bolt the guard rails. We're just about to the top of the "S", so it's down hill from now on :-)
Mr t
Yowsers ... yeah, I can imagine that'd be quite a bit of work and them damned curves have a tendency to need more frequent visits than straightaways. I take it you guys couldn't get CDOT funding to straighten that highway, eh? :)
And yeah, rail chunking on a grade is even less fun. Seriously, my sympathies. Then again, it ain't the trestle.
Actually, a group of us look forward to it, because it's not our every day JOB. I have a shot of the BMTman with two hands firmly gripped on the jack hammer, cigar in mouth surrounded by a smile.
He also has the annoying habbit of pointing out which ties he replaced ... well to be completely honest, I do that too. The other story I love to tell happened when our MOW foreman needed to drill a hole in a rail. It was a crew of two. We put this machine accross the rails & hooked a wire to the overhead line. He sat in the middle of the thing & turned a big wheel to do the drilling ... very old technology. We also bent a rail that day using a jig & a piston. We pumped up the piston & the rail bent just a little. After about ten or so of these actions it had bent the two inches we wanted.
The "3/4 Ton Crew" has the attitude that if we don't help fix the line then we won't be able to play with our trains.
At the end of the day we go home tired, but very satisfied.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. I *have* that picture ... AND I also have a picture of you leaning on a shovel and "supervising" ... heh. I haven't done trackwork, but I sure do know what it entails and I sure don't envy you guys there ... the GOOD news is you can suck down a beer or two and not have to worry about getting in big trouble once all's said and done. My hat's off to ya guys ... promise I won't remove any additional articles of clothing. :)
I heard something very quickly about this on ABC News this morning prior to heading out to work. The report was very sketchy, so if anyone has more info, please post.
BMTman
Sadly the story is true
Peace,
ANDEE
That's tragic. One can hope he didn't suffer long.
You can never be too careful in the tunnels - and even then bad things can happen.
>>That's tragic. One can hope he didn't suffer long.<<
>>Sadly the story is true<<
My, my. Have we stopped insulting Transit workers to show a shred of compassion? Usually, all I hear is how dumb those track workers are. Perhaps now all you dumb blocks will think twice before insulting track workers.
I don't remember insulting transit workers in any of my posts...
>>I don't remember insulting transit workers in any of my posts...<<
Not really directed at you. I just took this time to blow off the steam.
Cool.
Very sad...
Thanks for the link to the article, Andee.
BMTman
thats sad
Update from the Daily News website. The worker's name has been released; his wife is a C/R. My condolances to his family and any SubTalkers who may have known him.
You may have enough land but do you have a segment of rail to put it on? I mean you can't just ship it yourself onto your backyard or something, esp. when the sharp wheels most likely will slice through the ground.
Oh Diablo Canyon 2, why can't you be more like Diablo Canyon 1?
Be aware that those removal costs can run several thousand dollars.
I am aware of paying several thousand and am (somewhat) prepared for it. :) I just want to see what it will actually cost and see what the procedure would be. :)
Try the TA's Surplus Materials line 1(800) 543-VALU. They can probably point you in the right direction.
In my hometown (Portsmouth NH), one of the landmarks of the city is Gilley's restaurant, a converted train caboose converted into a diner (best place to get a cheeseburger at 3AM). Just in case you were wondering what to do with the redbird if you got it...
JG
How about the Deli in Staten Island that has an R-9 in it!!
. . . or the r-9 in heypaul's apartment !!
No, that's just a motorman's cab, although I'm sure Heypaul would have gone for the whole enchilada if he had enough space.:-)
How about a SubTalk Redbird? We could all pitch in for the land and the removal costs.
Count me OUT
Peace,
ANDEE
Your loss!
That's a matter of opinion. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
There's approximately 1000 registered users on this board, if I remember Dave's last count and factor in the number of new users since. If we all send in $10 we may be able to do something.
Of course, about 1/3rd of those users are active, and half of that number will probably be willing to chip in for $10. Which means 1/6th or 166 people, which means we would have to chip in about $61. Not so cheap, anymore, so half that number again and you're now down to 1/12th, who will be willing to pay $122.
61 dollars for a rustbird
1,212 users as of today.
According to Dave's count, if everyone chips in $10, we can produce $12,120. Every dollar helps.
I just need to know how much it is for each Redbird car.
Also, when we acquire these cars, where will it be kept?
Railfan Pete.
good point were is going to be kept .then you have to by track and find storage space
Keep them on the north side Manhattan Bridge tracks.
thats not a bad idea
Yea, and the construction will NEVER get started...
......nor finished.... knowing the PACE at which
the MTA has been known to construct and "rebuild".
Just remember Giuliani!
yeah
I believe the last time someone quoted a price it was $11,000. Up from $600 for an R-17 (it's up in Branford).
Make sure we get an R-33 single, unless you wanna double everything to get a pair. No divorces should be made on the count of nostalgia.
Now, I hope some form of effort like this is held when my favorite RR car is in its last days, the Metro North ACMU-1100. I'm sure some PCRR and NYC fans will chip in. There had better be a museum somewhere who will take them...
so your trying to buy a redbird kicka$$
If there were any more BMT Standards around (aside from the museum ones) I'd buy one - but a Redbird - count me out ;-)
AFAIK there are five surviving BMT standards, and four of them are on TA property. The fifth one, 2775, is at Shore Line.
Maybe the company that makes 'Bondo' would sponsor some the costs.
were you going to put it
I have about 50 Redbirds in my lot today, ready for immediate sale. No reasonable offer refused. Bad credit? No Credit? NO PROBLEM! Easy payment plans too. All cars come with a title certificate and a certificate of authenticity. And for the first 25 buyers, we are giving absolutely free - a 5 gallon can of rust inhibitor. But wait - there's more. If you act in the next 30 minutes, we will send you a 25 minute documetary videotape called "Ode To The Redbird" filmed in beautiful B/W. Each tape is numbered and signed by internationally known videotographer, Salaamallah. Don't be shut out - get your redbird today
Title and taxes extra. Offer not valid in states without mental institutions. Shipping available for a nominal additional fee.
The question is...
HOW MUCH?
Railfan Pete.
You forgot this:
"Crazy Train Dude's Junk Emporium" is not responsible for heatstroke that may be caused by malfunctioning A/C. People with severe internal injuries should not ride this train as it's rough ride may increase the damage.
Special TV Offer! Call right now (too late, you missed it) and we'll send you A FREE WINDOW REPLACEMENT KIT! That's right, you can experience the joyful railfan window as it should be, not all scratched up and filthy but clear and beautiful as the day before it was delivered!
Comes with several cans of paint so you can re-create all of the wonderful paint schemes these 'birds have had to endure! Choose from "Sludge Green," "Graffiti-me White," and "Corporate Blue and White." Brushes sold seperately.
You forgot one color that was used on the R-29/33/mainline36. The color was cardinal red. This was a bright red and when these cars were first placed into service they looked very attractive in the all red paint scheme. Some earlier IRT cars such as the R-12/14/15/17s got the red paint treatment, so did some R-16/27/30s.
BMTJeff
As long as they come with mudflaps, I'll TAKE one! :)
I'll take one so long as the cars have no components made by Firestone.
:-D
BMTman
I was hoping to get heypaul to upgrade from an R-9 to an R-33
I hear the commercial now ....
1-800-REDBIRD-LAND 1-800-REDBIRD-LAND
--Mark
Dude, you forgot the fine print:
MSRP $1,250. Price based on initial payment of $5 and 60 mos. of $20 per mo. @ 14.5% and final baloon payment of $9,735. Price does not include mfr. TT&L, trade-in credit value of HiV, LowV or Steinway car or removal or Redbird from purchase yard. Your milage may vary.
ROTFLMAO
I love it!
For anyone who has been trying to get his/her hands on a copy of:
A Tale of Ten Cities: Volume One (Rolling Thunder - The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York) by Eric Dale Smith (E_DOG on Subtalk) I am happy to report that Barnes and Noble has it in stock via their ONLINE store. I ordered it early yesterday morning, had it addressed to my office in lower Manhattan and it was waiting for me when I got in this morning (only because I left before it was delived via courier yesterday afternoon).
The book will ship with 24 hours of ordering with expected delivery in 3-6 days. If in Manhattan you will get same day delivery if ordered by 11 AM.
The cost: $15.25 (discounted 10% from the list price $16.95)
The shipping (courier) was $3.48. With the sales tax my total came to $20.28. Your total might vary depending on where they have to ship.
All you have to do is to open an ONLINE account with a credit card and answer the usual address questions and then complete the order. BN online sends e-mails to you for confirmation of the account and the shipping.
I have to say that B & N has been one of the best (if not the best) sources of NYC Subway and related books since the New York Bound Bookstore closed a number of years ago.
The direct URL to the BN page for the book is:
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0GK88GU2AQ&mscssid=F25HW749JL5G9MEM2SHBT7FKT5AD0E28&isbn=1588518221
or go to www.bn.com and enter A Tale of Ten Cities in the search box. The book will be the 2nd one listed when the search results come up
If you want to order the book just click on add it to your cart. (You can open your account before or after this point.
======================================================================
To E_DOG: Eric, with all the earlier hype I was hoping for at least a few illustrations but I will look forward to reading it.
Allan
Thanks for the plug Allan. I offered my publisher illustrations but they weren't interested. A Tale of Ten Cities, Volume Two, Windy Rails: The Elevated Railroad and the Transformation of Chicago is nearing completion so I'll push for more illustrations there. Thanks again.
Eric D. Smith
You're welcome.
By the way, Borders still has the book as hard to find. Shows how much they keep up with their competition.
At least they're no longer saying it's out of print. That touched off a war of words with my publisher and caused me to place an inaccurate post on Subtalk to that effect.
Eric D. Smith
>>>At least they're no longer saying it's out of print. <<<
Well, it might not be out of print but bn is going to have to track it down:
"Despite our efforts, we were unable to ship the following title(s) in the
expected time frame.
Below are the revised details of your order. As a part of our ongoing
customer service commitment to keep you informed, we will send you an
e-mail as soon as the title ships."
If bn can't find a copy, is it possible to purchase one directly from you?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin,
If you read my orginal posting, I got it in 24 hours. You mean to tell me that I got the last copy that bn had in stock?
I just took a look at the bn site and it appears that that might have been the case (or others who read my posting got their orders in right away and cleaned out the inventory).
I say give bn a chance and see what happens. You waited this long (as I did). You can wait a bit longer.
I was getting on the Train at Jay street. I didn't get on a Train yet, but i heard people saying its a F. I assumed it was an F. But then i heard a Westinghouse Air brake, and the car sounded like a R68. So i thought to myself, the R46's don't sound like that....
Sure enough, I get down onto the platform in time to see a series of R68s on the B line stopping at Jay street. It said 145th street Manhattan and Coney island. Did something happen on the bridge?
The R46 and R68 have the same brakes. But for some reason, they sound different. There have been a lot of R68s on the B today.
Whoops. I got WABCO and NYAB confused. The R32 Phase I and R38s use WABCO as well as the B Train you saw. I'm not sure about the R32 GE.
R-32GE cars have WABCO brakes.
David
WABCO's are awesome!!! I like em...
"WABCO's are awesome!!! I like em..."
Just out of curiosity,what makes WABCO awesom over NYAB or WESTCODE?
I like the sounds of the WABCO brakes over the others.
>>Did something happen on the bridge?<<
Not necessarily. Sometimes, trains are re-routed for some operational reason. For instance, I caught a D train At the 8th av Chambers st. station. I took it to Smith-9th, and then I went across for the Queens bound G. No more D trains were seen. Perhaps there was a quick problem, but nothing major.
And, maybe the B was re-routed at 59th. 8th av trains can't get to manhattan br. tracks at W4th.
The Staten Island ferry will make stops at Coney Island this weekend for the sold-out home-and-home Brooklyn Cyclones / Staten Island Yankees games.
Daily News story
Related article in the Times.
Anyone interested in Ferryfanning on Sunday?
Where does the boat dock at Coney Island (or do they just let the passengers wade into shore like the Marines at Omaha Beach on D-Day)?
They'll dock at Steeplechase Pier, only a short walk to the stadium. I may take the boat ride when I cover the game, but it depends on how early I have to get there. I'd love to take the ferry under the VZ.
-Hank
I haven't been to the Steeplechase Pier in years. Is it strong enough to support the ferry docking there? When was the last time a ferry or large boat of any kind docked at Steeplechase?
(Ok - who's starting BoatTalk? :)
--Mark
It doesn't need to. Likely, they've got a barge moored to the pier. The ferry will actually be tied to the barge, and passengers will disembark to the barge, and then to the pier. The Noble has sliding doors on the sides, so it doesn't have to dock as it does at St. George and Whitehall.
-Hank
I was wondering why I saw one of the smaller ferries by the Verrazanno this morning in the middle of the harbor.
>>> the Marines at Omaha Beach on D-Day <<<
Without disparaging the Corp in any way, no Marines landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day. That was strictly an Army landing.
Tom
Apologies to the Army for my mis-information.
>>> The Staten Island ferry will make stops at Coney Island this weekend for the sold-out home-and-home Brooklyn Cyclones / Staten Island Yankees games <<<
It was pointed out in an earlier thread that they were unable to put on an extra ferry to return baseball fans to Manhattan after a SI game, causing an extremely long wait late at night. How are they able to provide this service? Do they expect the fares to cover the expenses?
Tom
It was pointed out in an earlier thread that they were unable to put on an extra ferry to return baseball fans to Manhattan after a SI game, causing an extremely long wait late at night. How are they able to provide this service? Do they expect the fares to cover the expenses?
Considering that the fare is a goose egg, I'd say not!
The fare to Brooklyn is $5, round trip; I'd assume that the fare was determined based on the cost of operating the extra trip and the anticipated ridership (which seems like a fairly random guess :)).
BTW, here's the official word from NYCDOT.
I noticed the title bar read "Yankees and Mets Games." ?
Hi
I was wondering if anyone knows where to find statistics on NYC subway riders, such as the average age, age range, language stats, the gender breakdown, possibly even stuff about how many bikes, strollers, or wheelchairs come through on an average day. Any suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks.
Did you try MTA Public Relations?
You can get the phone number from their web site.
www.mta.nyc.ny.us
You obviously work for a media company since the word "media" is in your e-mail address.
I would just call the TA's corporate offices, tell them you are interested in buying signage in stations, and on trains. They'll have to provide you with all or most of the information that you requested, so that you can determine whether or not you want to advertise with the TA.
But I wouldn't be surprised if the TA has an outside agency that sells advertising for them, in exchange for a % of sales.
Good luck, and let us know if you can find any of the information you want.
Was on my way to work this morning, changing from the F to the A/C at Jay St/Boro Hall (Mnhtn-bound). Waiting for the A or C to arrive, we were all looking to our LEFT down the express tunnel, when I happened to look to the RIGHT and see the A train slowly backing in. Everyone was apparently as confused by this sight as I was. There was a 2-3 minute wait while the conductor announced several times that this was indeed a Manhattan-bound train. (A few people got off, having boarded the wrong train) Our confusion was compounded further when we saw the C train (on the Coney-Island bound express track) pulling out in the Manhatten-bound direction. After another minute, our train pulled out, ostensibly following the C.
Whahappened? (Is this a common occurrence?)
What you're describing appears to be the emergency conversion of Jay st. to a terminal. Something must have happened east (south) of there causing complete temporary cessation of service.
Two things happened pretty close together - timewise. First, there was signal trouble on the A line that lasted over an hour. This was closely followed by an F train with BIE at Smith-9th St., again due to signal trouble. This essentially plugged Jay Street and trains had to be turned.
Sounds like the T/O overshot the platform.
that can't be good
No, his description indicates the train was arriving from that side. And T/Os aren't allowed to back into stations if they overshoot (unlike in Philly).
I've heard about what's called climate control on new trains. Does this mean it turns on A/C when necessary and heat when necessary or does it just go one way or the other? Does it know the humidity, and change it, etc?
"Does this mean it turns on A/C when necessary and heat when necessary or does it just go one way or the other?"
All of NYCT's subway car climate control systems are designed to work essentially that way. The air conditioning is part of fully automatic HVAC (heating/ventilating/air conditioning). The ventilation operates all the time that the train is in customer service (assuming it's working properly and that nobody's shut it off, which would be a violation), with heat or air conditioning added as necessary.
David
On at least the R62 and 62A orders, as originally set up, there
was a small magical temperature range between cooling and
heating where the blower motors turned off. It may have been changed
since.
oh man ! more new crap to break on down on the new junker scrap-ready-junkers! the r-142s !!.......lol !!
When I'm saying this, I'm not talking about the actual skin of a subway car. I'm talking about photos that show, as close to perfect as possible, the front, sides, and back of a subway car. I would like to find some to use for BVE. I am interested in the current fleet at this time. Any recommendations would be appreciated.
The following is a test.
Ummm...I'd guess 46th/Bliss heading NB on the 7, front of the platform. Right?
Dan
I get "No Image Selected." ?
Wait, my browser said done but apparently wasn't. I got the picture.
Good idea, I'm going to use it.
Or just put your images on a server that allows you to link to them from documents on other servers.
Easier said than done...
I have Geocities as a site provider and MetConnect and NetZero as my ISPs. The only way to get any web space is to sign up with something like Geocities or NBCi or Angelfire or Tripod or 50 megs, all of which block remote loading.
Go find yourself a free shell account somewhere; I've never seen one that blocks remote loading. They tend to be available, with severe quotas, from small companies trying to sell similar services with less severe quotas, and also (occasionally with no quotas at all) from random individuals who have a bit of disk space and bandwidth to spare and are feeling particularly generous.
The best of the latter, the Web Union (twu.net), died abruptly in January due to abuse. Since I don't want the accounts I use now to die for a similar reason, I'm not going to recommend anything publicly. Email me and I'll give you a recommendation or two.
You need to wait a few seconds before the 'No Image Selected' turns to a Redbird #9346 picture.
I am definite that the photo is from the #7 Flushing line because I recall riding that same exact car (but in front was connecting cars)paired up with #9347.
If you have a slow server or internet provider, you may not get the picture, but hopefully you will.
Railfan Pete.
No trace of anything... your html is IE-only.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He's right, I'm in Netscape now and see no trace of the image.
But, 70% of all internet users use IE, and 95% of all computers have IE, so for the people who don't want to use IE you may wish to use a link in addition to the frame.
Or you can use browser-detecting JavaScript.
Or you can use real HTML.
An IFRAME is real HTML.
Or you can stop using Netscape. It doesn't support a single thing that IE doesn't. Netscape 6 is pure crap, worthy of software put out by AOL.
JavaScript is not real HTML.
Perhaps you've forgotten, but I mentioned in a recent post that I actually use IE. Your browser-sniffing JavaScript appears to be broken.
You've also missed the entire point of the World Wide Web, which is to get away from dependence on a particular piece of software running on a particular platform. Use real, standards-compliant HTML and you can be sure that anyone who uses a standards-compliant browser -- any standards-compliant browser on any platform -- will be able to see (or hear?) your work. (Netscape and IE aren't the only browsers in existence, and Windows and Mac aren't the only platforms in existence.) This isn't relevant on a message board like this one, but don't forget that search engines understand HTML but probably don't know what to do with JavaScript; if you want your web pages listed in the search engines, you've got to give them something to work off of.
Your browser-sniffing JavaScript appears to be broken.
I don't use it, how would it be broken?
if you want your web pages listed in the search engines, you've got to give them something to work off of.
The entire page wouldn't be JS, and the META tags certainly wouldn't be.
I was at the Rosedale station a while ago, and i say my favorite Add is the one that says "sticks and stones may break your bones, with that, so will running on the platform" I say thats hilarious. Also i have a picture of a Really old from 1995 in Jay street. it said NEw MetroCard helps prevent I.M.T.T.B.I.D.H.A.T.S. (I missed the Traib because i didn't have a Token syndrome)
By far, the greatest ad ever, was in the late 70's, for the Transit Museum.
CATCH ALL THE TRAINS YOU MISSED
It was so clever.
They still use it at the Museum.
Work continues at several sites in and around Hoboken Yard.
1. Demolition of the old shed is complete (except for two water towers); there is just a lot of rubble to be carried away. They have already started building foundations of ... I can't tell what it's supposed to be. A new office tower? A parking garage? A new train shed? Right now all that's there is a few 30 foot concrete poles wrapped in tarpaper.
2. Bergen Tunnels - all track, ties, and electrical have been removed. Excavation of the roadbed has begun.
3. HBLR - connecting Newport to Hoboken - no work being performed on the elevated structure.
4. HBLR - Hoboken station stop looks like it's going to be on Track 19 of Hoboken Terminal. (Tracks 1-17 are in regular use) They have taken out track 19's rail, ties, and roadbed, and are laying new roadbed. They are building some kind of bridge over the Long Slip to connect the elevated structure from the wye (at 18th Street and Washington Blvd) to Track 19. More of those 30 foot tarpaper wrapped concrete pillars.
5. HBLR - connection to ex-River Line. Trestles over Marin Boulevard and Newark Street are being replaced, with tracks being removed. It's still not clear how the LRVs will get from the embankment down to the River Line.
6. HBLR - preliminary engineering continues both north and south(!) along the ex-River Line. Are they planning a Hoboken-to-Liberty-State-Park express paralleling Route 78 (Turnpike extension)?
I just put four more pictures of Acela Express and AEM-7ACs on my page. You can enjoy them here.
Chaohwa
I Tried Killfiling Mr. Salaam, but its not working. What can I do to alleviate this headache of seeing these moronic post between every other worth-while post?
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Well, I suspect you didn't put his name in your killfile exactly the way it is spelled (punctuation and all) in his posts.
Other than that, how about just ignoring what you don't want to read?
Where do Subtalkers think the best place in the system will be to stand and watch the confusion/morons on the 23rd?
John
34th.
Grand.
DeKalb.
Atlantic/Pacific.
Stillwell.
59th.
Times Square.
(Not Canal. Most of the people there will have figured out what's going on.)
Oh, I think the east end of the Canal platform will have its share of confusion, because the spacing there is so tight. It will have a higher percentage of people who know where they're going, but transferring from a Q/W to the J/M/Z to go from Canal to Bowery or just to exit at Center and Canal for the walk to the Grand Street area will be hectic.
I agree. I used that station in the past when I had to change trains. This was when the lower level for the N/R twins wasn't used at all because of MB construction. Back then, the station was smelly, messy and very creepy. Kinda like 2nd Ave on the F. You have to be subway smart to find your way because getting lost was not an option.
My main concern is all the added pedestrian traffic on Canal. It's pretty bad as it is. Personally I think they should close off a lane of traffic to give more sidewalk space. Actually it would be nice if they'd just close off Canal to cars completely.(I know it will never happen)
Impossible, as so many drivers use this street to get from Brooklyn (off the Manhattan Bridge) to New Jersey (via the Holland Tunnel).
The Lower Manhattan Expressway should be built to replace it.
Agreed. Put it on the list of things that'll never be built like the 2nd Ave. subway, etc.
Only if it's put underground and funded 100% by those who actually use it.
It doesn't have to be put underground. Highways can be built nicely, preserving the buildings they pass over and cross streets with nice overpasses that fit into the neighborhood.
And as it would be part of the Holland Tunnel, it would have a toll plaza.
Show me one post-1950 example of such a highway.
A toll highway (that doesn't operate at a loss) there would be pointless. The only reason traffic on Canal is so heavy is that the wacky toll structure on the NYC bridges and tunnels makes it cheaper to go from Brooklyn to New Jersey via Manhattan than via Staten Island. Most of the traffic willing to pay a toll already does so, via Staten Island. And if the tolls were adjusted to make sense, Canal would only be used by local traffic.
Show me one post-1950 example of such a highway.
It has to start somewhere.
A toll highway (that doesn't operate at a loss) there would be pointless.
Toll highways do not operate at a loss. On the other hand, subways operate at a loss and get subsidized through a toll surplus. Yet most of the bridges that are tolled are NOT alternatives to subway and all of the free bridges are.
The tolls on the Upper East River, Rockaway and Verrazano Bridges should be abandoned. Tolls should be implemented on every crossing into Manhattan.
And the Lower and Mid-Manhattan Expressways should be built.
It has to start somewhere.
Somehow I doubt Manhattan is the best place for your experiment. What if it fails and we get another Gowanus?
Toll highways do not operate at a loss. On the other hand, subways operate at a loss and get subsidized through a toll surplus. Yet most of the bridges that are tolled are NOT alternatives to subway and all of the free bridges are.
That depends on how you define your costs.
Air pollution is a cost, both locally and globally. Noise pollution is a cost. Eminent domain is a cost (to the property owner it's used against). (You may try to argue that the property owner gets full market value for his property, so it's not a cost. But some property owners, particularly those who have in interest in selling, consider their property more valuable than the market does -- that's why they have no interest in selling. With the one exception of eminent domain, our society expects both parties in a transaction to voluntarily agree to the price before it can take effect.) Etc. At least in NYC, zoning doesn't effectively outlaw a subway-based lifestyle by banning large apartment buildings, imposing minimum parking requirements, and the like.
Apply these costs to toll roads and to subways alike and I think you'll see a different picture. Since subways run underground, their costs of this sort are low. An elevated highway is noisy and smelly (etc.) -- are its tolls going to compensate those affected? If not, then it's not paying all of its costs.
Ideally, I would like to see zoning abolished. Instead, each piece of property would be granted a measure of expected noise pollution, air pollution, etc. The basic premise behind zoning laws is that x should be banned around here because x brings some sort of undesirable effect. Instead of banning x, I'd prefer to ban the undesirable effect itself, assuming it's a reasonable effect to ban (often it isn't). Property owners would be able to waive their noise (etc.) rights and would be entitled to ask for financial compensation for a waiver. A store could, for instance, open in a residential area, but that store wouldn't be allowed to exceed the noise expectation of the neighborhood without first receiving (purchasing) a waiver from area property owners.
What does this have to do with highways? They'd fall into the same plan. You want to build a highway in my neighorhood? The anticipated noise would probably exceed the maximum noise level I'm entitled to, so you'll have to ask me for a waiver -- and I won't sell you one unless you offer enough to offset the loss in value to my property. Eminent domain, too, would be banished (at least when it comes to building highways and other transportation systems) -- if you want to build on my land, you'd better come up with a price that I willingly accept, and if you can't, try asking my neighbors. (Without reliance on eminent domain, transportation systems could be built by private parties.) When do you give up? When you find that your costs exceed your anticipated toll revenue. At that point, the highway can be declared (drumroll) not worth it.
This should apply, of course, not only to highways. Local streets, subways, etc. would operate similarly. (Why am I entitled to store my car on the street for free when a similar space inside a building would cost hundreds of dollars per month?) Charge everyone the costs they incur in using whatever piece of the transportation system they use.
Why would I like to see this implemented? Two reasons. First, selfishness: I don't want to pay for someone else's choices in travel mode. Second, efficiency: the best way to achieve an efficient transportation system is to directly charge its users the actual costs they incur.
I don't care if there are alternatives to the toll bridges. If its customers are willing to pay $3 to cross it but aren't willing to pay for a parallel subway route, then they should pay $3 to cross the bridge or stay home. (Direct subsidies from the toll bridges to the subways should be eliminated. On the flip side, so should indirect subsidies from everyone affected by the air pollution caused by traffic on the toll bridges, as should subsidies incurred by NYC taxpayers for the toll-free bridge approaches.) My guess is that, with all costs taken into account, it would be cheaper to drive from Brooklyn to New Jersey via Staten Island than via Manhattan (since traffic on Canal Street has a greater impact than traffic on the SIE), but it would probably be cheaper still to ride the subway and PATH.
This is nice. We wen't from debating to agreeing.
I only proposed to build the LoMEx (not really on the top of the list of things I'd like to be done) under the terms that the current system stays. If I was a dictator and had carte blanche to do anything I wanted, I'd do what you proposed. I've always come out against zoning, which is almost always used in an anti-transit sense. And I've always believed that cities, without cars would be the system that would prosper if the regime didn't favor cars.
Except that I wouldn't abolish eminent domain. The government needs "forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings." The government in the transportation business makes no more sense than having the government run the communications business, or the food business.
Interesting. I don't think anyone else has actually expressed basic agreement with my proposal.
I don't think cities would end up without any cars at all, but they'd have fewer than they do now. (And -- to answer the inevitable "What if you're wrong?" -- fine, then I'm wrong. I'm in favor of whatever is most cost-effective.)
Eminent domain couldn't be entirely abolished -- if nothing else, it's in the Constitution. But it has no business being used as a matter of course simply to reduce costs on everyday projects.
There are east-west streets other than Canal. Pedestrians won't all flock to one street.
And you appear to have forgotten that many of the people who use Grand today come from somewhere between the Grand and Canal stations, and many of those who do come from Grand will take the M from the Bowery instead.
I agree that there will be a lot of confusion at Canal St. especially for those using the bridge station for the first time (or the first time in a long while!). Plus, the fact that several stairways have been closed should make things even more confused and crowded.
34th St at the south end (or at the othere end) on the mezzanine level for the 6th Av line. Just make sure you stand out of the way because it is going to be hell.
I'm debating whether or not to stand watch at 34th and spend a few hours dispensing friendly advice and snickering at the confused pax.
Dan
If you do - you might be taking your life in your hands. Confused masses on the subway are like stampeding cattle ( I have heard that it has been compared to the Running of the Bulls in Pamplona, Spain).
I would think Monday AM would be the most confusing time with weekday rush crowds.
I did the same thing at Parsons/Archer on 12/12/88 (the first workday of Archer Ave. service). It was an absolute mess, as thousands of people who rode busses to 169th and 179th were now forced into this strange new line. My favorite thing to do was to watch the dazed & confused people coming off the inbound E's who had no idea where they were and were expecting the train to take them to 179th St.
I was also at Dekalb, but the confusion here was less dramatic as only 2 and a half years had passed since 6th Ave B and D service was the norm, and most people remembered it. Since it's been nearly 13 years since service had run exclusivley via Broadway, confusion will abound com 6/23/01.
Nassau St. was kinda interesting, as people looked at Z trains with amusement.
I hope you meant 7/23/01
Yup. My bad ...
It probably won't compare to what transpired on 11/27/67.
I expect lots of very angry customers blaming us for the bridge which is owned by the **city** I also expect lots of people will not listen and wait for an hour or more for a train that will not come until 2004 (and that is if it finishes on time!) Fortunately I will be heading up to 42/8 to pick that day and expect to miss most of the AM rush and the PM rush I will still be at home. The day I dread most is Tuesday since I will be working on the 4th ave Brooklyn andf N line.
On Tuesday I will also be at WTC heading home so I expect lots of furious customers there too.
We survived Lenox, we survived the closed Willie B and we'll make it through this also.
Broadway Lafayette will be a bundle of laughs for much longer than the first day. The 6th avenue (S) Shuttle will be heading north from the southbound platform, while the Grand st. (S) Shuttle will be heading south from the northbound platform. Signage would, of course, point to different color Ss in opposite directions.
On Ws as they bypass DeKalb, no one will fully know which line is for what and may assume everything stops at DeKalb now, since for the last 10 years all "yellow" trains have stopped there.
Anywhere on the (Q) north of Prospect Pk as people wait for the Brigton local.
On board (Q)s, many annoyed people since they expected the express.
Herald Square, of course, as people wander the maze of ramps and escalators while transferring. I predict more people will be able to find 6th ave from Broadway than the reverse, since the people getting off the (B)(D) will probably assume the (Q) rather than the (Q)< Q > from the conductor's announcement, and end up going in circles.
Canal st. northbound, as people struggle to cross over and go back to DeKalb and get the "right" train.
One group of riders who won't be confused is the Queensbridge bunch. Thanks to the constant messing with of service over the past five years they have learned a few things:
1. When boarding from the QB branch: Whatever train comes is the only train running. Take it.
2. When attempting to return home: Remember what train (letter) you were on this morning, which line you ended up on, and what stop you got off at. The only surefire way back is to take that exact same train from the exact same line at the exact same station.
I expect all 6th ave express platforms will be a laugh.I expect to find people waiting for the 6av express (which of course is not running). I do expect, but have no actual confirmation that there will be NYCT employees on the platforms and stations to assist (S/A, CR, etc.)
34t St. (6th Ave. line)
Sample phrase: "Why can't I get to Brooklyn?", "The B and D don't terminate here, my silly conductor friend"
Dekalb Ave.
Sample phrases: "Where's the D train", "How do I get to Grand St?", "Why is everything yellow?"
Grand St:
Sample phrase: (various Chinese profanities)
Canal St. (bridge platform)
Sample phrase: "Whoa, trains actually RUN here?"
Any West End station
Sample phrase: "What's a W train?", "Where's the B train?"
Of course, you'll hear the prase "Is this an express or local?" on any given day at the southbound platform of the Prospect Park station for the next 3 years as the confusion over 2 Q lines will never be completely eliminated.
It won't be as bad as it was on 12/12/88, but it might make for some amusing theatre.
I would assume the local papers -- Post and New especailly -- and the TV stations will have their reporters out in force at the strategic stations to report on the "crisis", including going to the Grand Street station for PM rush to see how many people try to get on there to go to DeKalb on the B/D/Q. Commentary by the local mayoral candidates is a given, of course.
I can see it now. Someone wont believe us when we say there is no 6av express until 2004. They'll wait an hour or so then storm back to the booth and scream that we did not tell them, there was no express. I can imagine we'd say "I'm sorry, the bridge is closed to 6 av trains" and we'd get some unrepeatable profanity about our poor service forgetting we do not own the bridge.I do Also hope the transit polioce are out in force.
Just this AM we had a very rowdy customer at Myrtle/Wyckoff complaining about no shuttle bus on the L for a half hour. He waited on the wrong stairway exit. It took a police officer already in the station to calm him down and send him to the right stairway. Yes- we did have tons of signs showing the correct way to the bus!
I can see this repeated continually on the 6 av lines. I also dread whenever the bridge changes again--I expect some of these lines will change again and then more angry people. I do love this job!(really!).
I don't plan to be at ground zero come the 23rd. I predict the confusion will duplicate or exceed the Chrystie St. fiasco of November 1967.
The TA hasn't really been doing any real radio and TV ads about the changes. They still run those Metrocard ads over and over and the public is used to them. I'll watch the fun on TV come the 23rd. Since society is worse today than in 1967, let's hope there are no riots or assaults because of the change.
My prayers go to all those SubTalkers who'll endure this so they can report it here !
Bill "Newkirk"
This week I had several occasions to use the "F" from Jay St. to 47-50th Rockefeller Center.
I noticed at Delancey, on the southbound platform, the walls were being preped for re-hab. The former blocks for Ads were filled in with morter, but not to neatly. It appears as if the original tile will be covered over.
Will the original mosaics spelling out "DELANCEY ST." be saved as were the "PENN STATION" mosaics at 34th St on the 8th Ave line or will they be covered over and lost foreeeeeeeeeeeever?
Avid
Is there anything terribly special about them?
When IND stations are rehabbed, they usually retain their IND look. Does it really matter if the mosaics are restored or replaced?
I'd like one of the originals if they are to be covered over.
avid
Aha! Pure selfishness, in other words. But fully justified.
They usually replace the white tile and any parts of the color tile band that has fallen. If the color tile band is too far gone, they replace it too, and they've been pretty good at duplicating the colors. Sometimes this also involves removing or tiling over the existing captions (the black tiles with the white letters). Expect them to replace the white tile and captions as well. They've gotten pretty good at duplicating the original IND font. I.e. Metropolitan-Grand on the "G".
Expect Delancey to keep its purple color although it may result in a purple or violet band with a black border.
wayne
I'm annoyed at the Penn Station rehab. They took a three-tile-thick tile band and turned it into a two tile thick one, same with Bergen st and 14th/8th. What was the point in that?
To answer your question: It could be anyone's guess, Penn Sation kept it's originals but 161st (D) got theirs covered over with new mosaics slightly shifted from the original position. I love the inverted colors at the stairs of 161st, what the IND would have done if they could afford more colored tile...
On a similar note: Can anyone tell me if Woodhaven Blvd kept its original mosaics? They still show Slattery Plaza, but they seem different than the ones at other IND stations (or maybe that's just the lack of the directional arrow underneath). Plus they appear to be flush with the wall tile, so unless they stripped the tile and put new ones up during the rehab this would suggest new mosaics.
I will say that in most of the IND stations that were rehabbed (I don’t necessarily count the Fifth Avenue/53rd Street station where they totally redid the entire design), they completely covered over the original pre-lettered and/or -numbered tiles that were one tile below the color scheme at the stations in question. F’rinstance, you can no longer see “>-H HARDING BLVD-> at Woodhaven Boulevard/Slattery Plaza station.
At the Metropolitan Avenue-Grand Street G station, they did not retain the original mosaic, but put in place a less-well-done variation thereof. Could they at least take out some samples of these pre-lettered and/or -numbered tiles before redoing?
By the way, prepare to wave goodbye to the original design of the 42nd Street-8th Avenue station; that too is being redone.
At the Metropolitan Avenue-Grand Street G station, they did not retain the original mosaic, but put in place a less-well-done variation thereof. Could they at least take out some samples of these pre-lettered and/or -numbered tiles before redoing?
Did the "TO TRANSFER" directionals exist in the prior incarnation of this station?
And in the connecting L station, why are there IND-style "CROSSTOWN LINE" directionals? Again, did they exist pre-rehab?
Maybe Indiana Walsh could stash some mosaics in the Phantom &6th St Station?
In 2 or 3 thousand years they could be discovered as some religious cult!
avid Goodnight heypaul.
And in the connecting L station, why are there IND-style "CROSSTOWN LINE" directionals? Again, did they exist pre-rehab?
Conceivably. Some stations did, I think , have signs pointing to "transfers" in other divisions. It meant paying another fare, so maybe they figured "so what?"
:-) Andrew
But why IND-style? They look totally out-of-place on the BMT platform.
the BMT Lorimer Street station opened in 1924. The transfer was added in 1935 or 1936. When they added the transfer, they also added the directional tile.
wayne
You mean to say that they had such poor taste back then, too?
(Not the directional tile, per se. The IND-style directional style on an otherwise pure BMT wall.)
>>>>You mean to say that they had such poor taste back then, too?
(Not the directional tile, per se. The IND-style directional style on an otherwise pure BMT wall.) <<<
IND signs and mosaics get a bad rap. They're not the ornate Squire Vickers or Heinz & Lafarge ornate signage of the previous era, but they are colorful, understandable and do the job of telling you what station you're in--which is what they were meant to do. Besides, the intricate color coding (basically a new color at each express stop)--has been interptreted in any number of ways by railfans ever since.
Besides, design-wise, I've always been a fan of bold, colorful signage. I would say that the drab, black and white signs the MTA has used since the 70s could use a system-wide update, and the MTA was too quick to replace the beautiful enamel station signs of the BMT (the 23rd street BMT signs at the fare control were simply painted over one day, and the blue and white Qveensborough Plaza signs were treasures that never should have been eliminated). In the MTA's present mindset that is slightly more sympathetic to preservation, it's possible these signs could have been saved if they had somehow hung on.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Corporate mindset -- when college professor and Rocky pal William Ronan took over the system when the MTA was created in 1968, the the two wanted everyone to know that The State was now running the subway, and began trying to put the agency's new blue and white color scheme (or blue and silver on the new subway cars) on everything. That included virtually all of the local stops on the BMT Broadway/Fourth Ave. line, though a couple, like Spring Street, did get yellow cinder block tile instead of blue.
That managed to look even worse, if that's possible, than the other combo, though to be fair to the MTA, the NYCTA had done no better in tile selection for the previous 15 years, beginning with the Grant Ave. station on the A and continuing with the IRT local platform extensions below 14th on the 6 and above Times Square on the 1. Happily, those nightmares also are being eliminated, though Grand Street and 57th-Sixth probably are going to keep their tile schemes for a long time to come, since like Grant Ave., they're origial to the stations when they opened.
>>>>began trying to put the agency's new blue and white color scheme (or blue and silver
on the new subway cars) on everything. That included virtually all of the local stops on the BMT
Broadway/Fourth Ave. line, though a couple, like Spring Street, did get yellow cinder block tile instead
of blue. <<<
Spring St. is IND. The IND, and some IRT stations, did get truly horrible cinderblock tiling, but the BMT Broadway line got some rather better cinderblock work that made it look unique and unusual when it was new. It alternated four colors, tomato red, blue, gold and grey, and station signs in white with black trim (since replaced with black and white). No other line but the Broadway BMT was given these signs. The colors went in rotation.
This year, the MTA has been stripping away the cinderblock work on its Broadway BMT Manhattan stations, and will restore (I hope) the original tilework. The Broadway line stations in Brooklyn, though, still keep their '68-70 remodeling job.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sorry about the error. It was Prince Street, not Spring on the BMT.
Given the choice, I suppose the BMT cinder block design is better than the other, because the design is brighter, but it also is boring and anticeptic compared to what was cemented over -- a subway station design that would fit in nicely as the front of a Wal-Mart store. Definately a sign of the times -- back in the 1960s/early 70s the idea was that anything old-looking sucked -- and something that in its own little way, went hand-in-hand with the demolition of places like Pennsylvania Station earlier in the decade.
The preservation of Grand Central late in the 1970s was the beginning of a turn-around in that attitude, and I'm glad to see the MTA is following up the restoration of that building by doing the same to the rest of the BMT Broadway line's local stops, plus Canal Street.
Rector in Manhattan on the N/R still has not been restored to original design.I currently work a lunch on Brooklyn 4th Av. Here too, the ugly tile is simply placed over the classic and could be removed. I do not have a timeline, but I expect one day these too will be restored to classic design. These stations still have traces remainign of the former grandeur in part-time exits and protions of the mezzanine (Which is defined as the area from the booth to the turnstiles-even if this area is at platform level.)
>>>Rector in Manhattan on the N/R still has not been restored to original design.<<<
Hmmm, what is it about Rector? Rector is also the only station on the IRT 7th Avenue (#1,2,3) to not get some kind of rehab treatment.
www.forgotten-ny.com
???
79 isn't rehabbed.
86 isn't rehabbed, unless those panels of artwork count. (Note to Redbird fans: one depicts a Redbird 2 train one station up.)
In fact, the only rehabbed station north of 72 on the 1/9 is 181, IINM.
Right, I meant south of 59th Street...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh, yeah, 59 isn't rehabbed either!
59(IND and IRT) will be deasigned in the current 5 yr plan. Actual rehab is in a future plan.
They have rehabbed 137th Street-City College and in doing so destroyed the original tilework and all but two of the "Three Fates" cartouches.
A crime and a sacrilege. It's awful, simply awful.
wayne
It is awful, I agree, but when was that done? I don't think it was a recent rehab -- it looks to be more of a 60's modification.
I think 137th Street was done in the mid-to-late 80s - in the same capital expenditure as was done 34th Street-6th Avenue, 5th Avenue-53rd St. etc. Someone (thankfully) saw what was going on and put the brakes on the "nonconforming" rehabs and now they are faithful to the original style of the station. I remember seeing the 34th St-6th Avenue station rehab in progress- seeing the original two-tone yellow/gold tile band being literally torn from the wall brought tears to my eyes. That kind of descecration would NOT happen under the current regs.
wayne
137th Street was "modernized" early in the first MTA Capital Program (1981-86).
The current practice of matching new tiles, etc. to the old started in the Alan Kiepper regime (1990-96).
David
I remember seeing the 34th St-6th Avenue station rehab in progress-seeing the original two-tone yellow/gold tile band being literally torn from the wall brought tears to my eyes.
Thank god that 34th Street missed the tile-keeping mindset, otherwise it would just be another boring IND station between a boatload of other boring IND designs instead of the masterpiece it is.
I don't know about 5th Avenue (it isn't good now, might as well be IND), but the way 137th Street was rebuilt is a crime. They should have used that design on another IND station.
Hmmm, what is it about Rector? Rector is also the only station on the IRT 7th Avenue (#1,2,3) to not get some kind of rehab treatment.
I don't think Rector gets much ridership. Cortlandt and South Ferry are better located for most riders.
That's a good point. Though 57th/6th and Grand Street may be a dull pattern, they ARE ORIGINAL for those stations, and should be preserved as such- they have "1967" written all over them.
The exit gates at 5th Street are similar, and therefore, should also be preserved and/or replicated in future years.
Actually, the Grand Street design was apparently circa 1960-62 (though the station itself didn’t open until 1967), while the design of 57th Street and 6th Avenue was probably contemporaneous to the platform lengthening of stations on the IRT West Side line from 34th Street-Penn Station on down, which I’d date to circa 1967.
Sorry to disappoint you-- the IRT westside ends of platforms dfates back to 1960-1961. I recall moving to East Flatbush in the summer of 1961 and trafing the BMT for the IRT. AT that time the local statiosn were lengthened to ten car trains and the ends were done in the syle still seen at 59th,79th etc.
If you are interested in a tour of the 1 line let me know via e-mail and I'll ask Peggy to give a tour from South Ferry to 242. I'll make sure Peggy includes patchwork, and restored stations.
I am sure Peggy will be willing to lead a tour on a Thursday.
I was referring to 34th, 28th, 23rd, 18th, Christopher, Houston et al. Those extensions were what were reminiscent of the design of 57th and 6th on (as are running now) the Q line.
Well, we might quible over a particular station received what a friend of mine describes as the "bathroom" look in 1962 or 1967. However, the main point of my message was that while in most cases the pattern was a "modernization" or quickie tile job on a lengthening project, and might seem like a defilement of IRT/BMT granduer.
However, at Grand Street and 57th/6th, they're ORIGINAL, and therefore, in my opinion, should be preserved.
I happen to LIKE Grant Avenue because of its textured finish; looks VERY retro, very 50's, and the contrasting bottle green tile band is almost impossible to tell from black.
There were four colors used in BMT "refrigerator tile" schemes:
Blue (Bay Ridge, Prospect, Rector, Canal-Broadway, 8th, 57th)
Maize (53rd, 9th, Prince, 5th Avenue)
Burnt Orange (77th, 25th, Canal-Chinatown, 28th)
Grey (45th, Union, Cortlandt, 23rd)
I don't remember what color 49th was.
Maize is a shade of yellow.
wayne
I don't think 49th ever got refrigerator tile -- it got the burnt orange brick (still there today) instead.
I may be wrong, but I thought 5th Avenue also had burnt orange brick before its rehab.
I could be wrong, I seem to remember the yellow (maize) tile panels at 5th Avenue.
I wonder when the 49th Street station was rehabbed.
wayne
The 49th-7th Ave. station was rehabbed around 1973-74, after the cinder block tile design had been installed at the other Broadway BMT local side platform stations in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
I was out of the city from 1966 till 1994. I returned on a vacation in 1977 and 49 was already redone.
I don't think 49th ever got refrigerator tile -- it got the burnt orange brick (still there today) instead.
I know this may be a minority viewpoint, but I actually like the way 49th looks.
I liked it better than the cinder block job all the other BMT stations got. The color was wrong, but at least the brick was about the same size as the rectangular tile used on the IRT stations along some sections of the Contract 1 and Contract 2 lines.
I agree with you. While I'd hope they wouldn't put that scheme in any other presently-existing stations, it is, in all honesty, attractive, and would do fine if they ever really do build the Second Avenue line.
So do I. I wouldn't like it systemwide but I don't mind it at all in one or two stations.
One quibble: the benches are way too deep. They need back support.
I some how recall that station being done with private funding or donations. Anyone else know more?
avid
No, I think it was some type of federal DOT grant that funded the rehab -- sort of like the platform version of the SOAC train project the feds were pushing back in the early 1970s.
You missed my point.
I have nothing against IND tilework. I don't find it as interesting or exciting as what preceded it, but it's interesting in its own way.
My complaint was regarding IND-style tilework in a BMT station, on a wall that is otherwise 100% BMT.
The BMT my have fell victim to the same thing that befell the IRT platforms that were lenghtened, lack of original tiles to do the new signage with. Perhaps the planners had a budget to keep within. Tiles that were availible were mismatched but cheap.
avid
But, AFAIK, the platform wasn't lengthened. The BMT band runs all the way to the end of the platform, and there's a large BMT-style "LORIMER ST." directly above the IND-style caption.
Here:
Yes, that's the original black caption tile, see how it's recessed; they spared it during the rehab - and they made some VERY NICE new BMT tablets - you can tell which ones they are by the blue-grey glaze which has a "watercolor" look to it. Two of these are on the Manhattan-bound paltform. There are stretches of new tile too. I have a couple of leftover pieces from this job I have made into trivets for on top of my microwave.
wayne
I think the three examples of IND tile in a BMT station as ORIGINAL WORK have since been changed to BMT style : i.e. Broad/Nassau; Fulton/Nassau and 8th Ave/14th. I have seen at Halsey Street on the "L" IND tile installed near the Covert Street exit but I have been informed that even this has been replaced with NEW Canarsie-style tile. I have seen a few cases (3rd Avenue, Bushwick-Aberdeen) where short stretches of IND-style borders/bands have been put up in BMT stations as non-original work.
wayne
Let's not forget another oddity: The Lexington Avenue 59th Steet Express Station, which was opened in the early 60's using rectangular turquoise tile, and which was renovated to look somewhat like an IND station.
Yes it does, doesn't it! Only thing missing are the "59" captions. Odd choice of color band, that dark green and blue. Wonder why they chose that scheme; upstairs the original 1917 Vickers tile has been lovingly restored.
wayne
Somewhat? Very much!
What's wrong with IND-style tilework in a BMT station? I don't think it detracts from the look of the station. In fact, it can even add to it. I think the little white-on-black station-name captions are very useful. They help identify the station. In fact, I think they should be added to some of the IRT and BMT stations that don't have other indications of the station name (such as at Canal Street and Chambers Street on the Seventh Avenue line, and 14th St. - Union Square on the Broadway and Lexington Avenue lines), just like they did at Whitehall Street.
- Lyle Goldman
They don't match. I don't mind captions that serve the same function, but they should be in the proper style. (Look at just about every other Canarsie line station for an example of BMT-style captions.)
Well, the little directional signs that point to the exits do have a BMT style that performs the same function and are just as good. What I was referring to in those suggestions (actually changing the subject slightly; I probably should have written "For example," or something) were those little white-on-black-tile station-name signs that are repeated over and over in most IND stations (like the little 42's on the side of 42nd Street Station on the Sixth Avenue line). They may be out of place on an IRT or BMT station, but they can be made to fit right in, and they are very useful, anyway. Yes, the little initials painted into the top bands are useful, too. The walls at Canal Street Station on the Seventh Avenue line, however, have very little indication of the station. On the top, there is just a band with no letters to indicate the station name; only a few small mosaics of a building that has nothing to do with the area. Even the big station-name mosaics are few, as compared to other stations. A few more station-name mosaics and some little "CANAL" captions of some kind would do us a lot of good, don't you think?
Why don't those white-on-black tiles seem to match on BMT and IRT stations? Is it because we are not used to them? Is it because they were not originally there? I'm sure if they had been on all stations from the start, none of us would complain about them. Yes, for most of my early childhood I only rode the F train, so maybe I'm a little prejudiced, but I do like the design of the IND stations. They are utilitarian, but they are not without any intrinsic aesthetic beauty, and I believe the two types of station designs can be easily combined and peacefully coexist by taking the best of both worlds without sacrificing anything.
- Lyle Goldman
only a few small mosaics of a building that has nothing to do with the area.
TOTALLY UNTRUE. A mosaic of the letter C would be boring and would just be a repeat of the same pattern used everywhere else. However the building mosaic makes the station unique, it's mosaics worthy of mention.
I have no idea what that building is, but considering what I know about the mosaics at Union Square-BMT or Christopher or Chambers on the same line (or the Astor beavers, I could go on), that building is certainly relevant to Canal Street.
Canal might look similar to the other stations on the line, but it stands out with those mosaics.
Hey, if you have no idea what the building is, how do you know that it is "certainly relevant to Canal Street"? (Actually, I was thinking of the building mosaic at Chambers Street, which, according to the station-by-station guide to the Seventh Avenue IRT, is part of Columbia University, nowhere near Chambers Street.)
I'm not saying that those mosaics are in any way bad or should be taken down. I am saying, however, that there are not that many of them (Much of the station top is just a brownish-orange band.), and there are also very few big station-name mosaics on the wall, so someone new to the area sitting in the last car with broken P.A. speakers has a better chance of not having any idea what station it is. What I am really saying is that the little white-on-black (or similar) tile captions should be added (preferably one caption midway between each pair of vertical columns). They would be more helpful for passengers, and would not take anything away from the station. In fact, it would even add to the uniqueness of the station.
Why do I get the impression you don't like the IND station designs?
- Lyle Goldman
Well, they're plain and many of them.
I think that there is no problem with ripping out IND tile to replace them with something new, in fact, I think the 1970s BMT refrigerator tile should be installed in one because every BMT station that has them with the old tiles underneath should be restored (if the old tiles are gone, then either keep the big tiles or try something new).
However I do like the engineering of the IND, and the logic of their color schemes. If an IND station should be rebuilt (from now on, 34th street can be left alone), it should use the same color family.
And that is my opinion on tile. I do agree with you that the name of the station should occur as often as possible. While the mosaics that the IRT and BMT used to indicate exits and such is better than the IND's, the IND's is practical and can work and won't detract from the mosaics in most places.
Oh, and in case somebody reading this is confused by the contradiction with my previous statements in which I said the mosaics are monotonous, they are to me, but details like mosaic pictures and bas reliefs make up for that. The early IRT is not boring in the slightest way.
14th St was an improvement. As I recall it didn't even have a color stripe. It was very much like 23rd St. They and 50th have/had a very austere motif. The mosaics, although not from an Egyptian tomb or Roman Bath, still have an Urban archaeological flavor to them. Regardless of the Station name or number, some segment of its original wall covering should be saved. Privately or publicly. How to do it with out being busted for theft or defacing property?
avid
14th Street-8th Avenue did have a color band, it was yellow, same as found in the tablets at 23rd Street. No contrasting border, though.
wayne
I stand corrected, I remembered that on fridays trip home. I always felt they were shortchanged at those stations.
avid
I take it to mean that the studs for the prefab tile panels have gone up at 42nd Street. Let's hope they get the color right and NOT use the Funereal purple they used at 7th Avenue. A lighter shade (like what they now have) would be nice.
wayne
Henry - they did 14th Street and 34th Street-Penn Station the way they did to make them consistent with the other 8th Avenue express stations - 42nd, 59th, 125th, 145th, 168th, each of which is two tiles high with black border. 14th Street and 34th-Penn were indeed three tiles high, but they lacked their 2 Ľ" borders. You can see how the new tile bands fit into the same space as the old one:
4 ˝" + 4 ˝" + 4 ˝ = 2 Ľ" + 4 ˝" + 4 ˝" + 2 Ľ.
BTW the constrasting brown border at 14th is nice but it should have been black. And they didn't use the black tile captions. Shame!
wayne
Speaking of which, the new "Madison Square Garden" mosaics at the IND 34th Street station have got to be the first new IND-style mosaics done in over 50 years. They do a good job of replicating the look, but they left the grout between the tiles white, throwing it off a little. Perhaps the grout on the original IND signs was white too...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think they used grey grout.
There are new tablets at 110th St-Cathedral Parkway IND as well as
Metropolitan/Grand IND on the "G". They did a pretty good job with these. If you count the stairside ones at 14th Street/8th Avenue and the ones between the tracks at Canal IND those are new too.
wayne
Salaam:
Why do you bait people? This forum is not a competition where one person is supposed to make another look stupid by appearing to be more knowledgeable about transit facts & figures. It is unfortunate that you have antagonized so many Subtalkers because many of your opinions make perfect sense and it would be a shame if your name went into the Killfile list. So cool out man and seek not to build yourself up by tearing down others. That way we'l all be better off.
E_DOG
Salaam does a fine job of looking stupid without baiting.
-Hank
hankeisenstein does a fine job of looking stupid without baiting.
SalaamAllah ....!
first of all this is subtalk not salaamallah talk for starters i disagree with the rest of your post & dont see where you say i am
tearing down others etc. However i do see where the traditional old fashoned technology is superior to imported & foregin
canadian & mexican & even european inported subway/transit transportation vehicles @ i do think some mercedies benz automotive
vehicles are nicely built ( however to costly to manitain ) lol !! I do beleive american built transit cars were better made !! lol !!
Mr E DOG & Hank subtalker i will tell you this i am a easy going laid back guy who loves rail transportation of all kinds & especially the
electric transit type of rail. I kike to photograph in analog/digital it shoot video it & have a ton of fun doing this !! lol !!!
Anyone who meets me in person finds out quickly i am a easy going laid back fun loving transit fan & buff & dont care who likes it
& does not if you have a problem with this sir then this may speak to issues both you hank & SOME OTHERS think is up to you!
anyway killfile is for sissies & wimpy weak flaky folks ( in my opinion ) thank you have a nice day !!!
Salaam Allah
The prosecution rests, your honor.
-Hank
what ? man you give up too easy !! lol !!!
It's no shame if his name goes into the killfile. It's been in MY killfile since the day killfiles were invented at SubTalk!!!
And I don't miss a thing.
He's the prime reason that they were implemented.
-Hank
I've deliberately steered clear of the current spate of anti-salaam posts. To be sure, I don't think that anyone here has had in the past, more heated exchanges with salaam than I have. It's no secret that I do not like his views on politics, his views on religeon, or his views on race. If we were neighbors, I probably would not like salaam - and vice versa.
Additionally, I find his persistant diatribes about R-142 junkers to be as childish as his past rants bemoaning theloss of railfan windows. Needless to say, I don't need to mention his twisting of facts, ala the strip-search of the girl in the Washington DC metro. Salaam has often shown himself to lack credibility.
Despite this, I have not put salaam into my killfile. I think he has a certain persistent pesty charm about him. Like the gopher in "Caddyshack" or the mouse in "Mouse-hunt", do what you will, say what you will, he's a constant in an ever changing world. Do not try to confuse him with facts for his mind is made up. In short, he's the timex watch of subtalk.
I've made up my mind not to attack salaam any more. He's more likable in his unpretentious lack of credibility than some here who pretend to know things and post conjecture and opinion as facts. Those are the real divisive forces on subtalk - salaam is merely comic relief.
thank you sir ! would you like to join my transit clubs websites & yahoo groups ?? you do seem to know your stuff about
rail transportation & i do respect that !! lol !!
I was riding the LIRR a while ago. One thing I like about Engineers, is they didn't know Railroads have Railfans too! I talked to several engineers. They always ask the famous question oh r u a buff or something? (Duh? how do u think i knew the NORAC rules since i was 17) he even started quizzin me. He was like what does that say? It says Advance approach. LIRR doesn' get those, but we were headed into penn and u see that usually in sunnyside yard. Also i always ask Engineers, how do u like the DE30's? They all say they are a piece of garbage. Then i always ask, did u like the old GP-38's better? They are like yeah! they are reliable. But besides the money, LIRR has a secret that they aren't telling...... I asked who is better
I was riding the LIRR a while ago. One thing I like about Engineers, is they didn't know Railroads have Railfans too! I talked to several engineers. They always ask the famous question oh r u a buff or something? (Duh? how do u think i knew the NORAC rules since i was 17) he even started quizzin me. He was like what does that say? It says Advance approach. LIRR doesn' get those, but we were headed into penn and u see that usually in sunnyside yard. Also i always ask Engineers, how do u like the DE30's? They all say they are a piece of garbage. Then i always ask, did u like the old GP-38's better? They are like yeah! they are reliable. But besides the money, LIRR has a secret that they aren't telling...... I asked who is better and they said the Railroad. I was like besides money what is good. She was like you will find out when u become a Engineer.
Wondering
We need more "Hyper Motormen" Who love to push the train to the max so that it's right at the exact speed to pass the timers at top max speed. Especially on the Lex Line where the express runs are the best. We got a lot of cautious drivers, who are slow (boooo) I wonder how many hyper motormen are out there. We're running out of them. By the way, timers on the Lex need to go.
My guess is that they don’t want to see themselves labeled as “cowboy motormen”, which was the appellation applied to those who went real fast at a time in the 1980’s when there was a spate of well-publicized subway accidents and derailments. But that’s just my guess. . . .
I think you're right.
My observations tell me that while there were always some timers, TA management really went crazy with them in the late 1990s, in response to when (1995) a T/O on the J fell asleep and rear-ended a train on the Willy B.
I know another place where the R46 and R32 trains on the Broadway R line reach speeds around 50-55 mph. (I'm not exactly sure of the speed, probably a little faster)
This happens on the tunnel [going under the East R.] between Queens Plaza and Lexington Av. -60th St. station. There is a long gap here, and the R train goes through a series of left and right curves near Queens Plaza [Brooklyn bound] (I'm not sure how many, I'm guessing 4)
I've also noticed that the R tracks ascend over the Queens Blvd. line (E,F) to 23rd St. Ely Av. when going outbound to Brooklyn and Manhattan.
Then the train revs up to 55+mph and it actually makes my ears pop if it goes fast enough.
I think we need more "hyper" and well-experienced (a better expression) engineers for the MTA NYC Transit, although I wouldn't worry too much about it.
=)
Railfan Pete.
I have seen R-46s do 60 in the 60th st tube (which is that stretch you speak of). The ears popping is a result of the rapid altitude change as the trains descend into the bottom, combined with the sudden rush of air as they pass the emergency exit on Roosevelt Island and the exits to each side of the river.
The only reasons trains reach that speed is because of the steep grade combined with lax two-shot timers (set to 50 MPH!). You'd get the same speed in the 53rd st. tube if the timers weren't set to 35.
The 14st tube (L line) gets some nice speed too, 50 MPH with one-shot timers with no lunars. This tube separates the men from the boys, trains heading at top speed toward red signals that are expected to change about 10 feet before the train reaches them. Signals that give no indication on wether they're red because the timer has not run out yet, or red because the next block is occupied.
The tunnels in Lower Manhattan have been butchered by timers. The Cranberry and Rutgers rarely see speeds over 40. The Montague is slower than the Manhattan Bridge, this is the only tunnel I know of with timers on an uphill grade.
On the IRT 7 Flushing Line, (even the long tube between Vernon-Jackson Avs. and Grand Central terminal) the trains don't go very fast esp. because of the red signals and their timers.
(If anyone has any info. about this please let me know!)
I've also noticed that (while peeking through the railfan window on the 7) there are red signals at a distant on the line outbound to Times Square that automatically change to 'green and orange' (there are two signals, but I want to find out why) when the next train approaches it about 20 feet away.
~Interesting!~
I've also read a paragraph about how the NYCT subway signals and I remember something about if trains pass a red signal from the front, the traffic sensors work to automatically stop the train that is in motion, although I think you can pass through them at about 2-3 mph.
;)
Railfan Pete.
The "green and orange" you're referring to means the train has a line-up to switch to the other track. When the train is 20' away, the tower sees it's approaching and gives it the line-up to track 2 if it's express (green over yellow) and track 1 if it's local (green over green). Similarly, when departing, trains leaving track 1 must get to 2 (the outbound track) so they get Green / Yellow, while trains leaving track 2 get green over green.
The signals have a brake tripper on the side opposite the signal (IND/BMT) or on the same side of the signal (IRT) which is up while the signal is red. A few seconds before it changes, the tripper drops. It does not come up again until the last car of the train has passed the next signal, to aviod tripping the train as it crosses, and also to aviod tripping a train that is wrong railing. If a train slows to 2 or 3 MPH, unless the signal is a home signal or has been modified for "no key by", the tripper drops but the signal remains red, because technically the block controlled by the signal starts a few feet before it, and once a train is in the block the tripper must drop. The train can proceed without being tripped.
Why a 35 mph timer under 53rd St?
Is there a 53 mph timer under 35th St?
For some reason they felt the 53rd, Cranberry, and Rutgers street tunnels (all IND) should have a lower MAS than 14th and 60th (both BMT). Cranberry and Rutgers are somewhat justified, they do have a few curves tossed in at the ends. But 53st is a straight shot, with a few gentle curves near the bottom.
I have had on R32 "N" train up to 61mph onec. It is easyer to get a "N" up to these speeds then an "R" train, becouse when the "R" switches into the tube there is a Red light with a linner white timer. You have to get down to about 20mph for it to clear. As for then "N" that same light is a yellow the a linner "S" under it. You came get up to about 25mph for that one clear and that after the next one clears you can rap it around the rest of the way down.
Robert
The other day I had a moterman who slowed down for imaginary timers. No joke! We'd be cruising along at 35, full parallel, green all the way, suddenly he slams on the brakes and slows to 12 MPH, then puts it in full speed again. He did this three times between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza, each time before the train could reach 40, each time slowing to 12. The T/O of the F train behind him looked very pissed off.
Another time, there was a T/O who (apparantly) thought that the controller didn't go past series. These guys should be banned from getting jobs during the rush hour.
I have found that the railfan window is very stressful if you have a slow T/O. The solution to this is to either detrain and wait for the next one, or sit down in a car other than the first one. Then, you can make up scenarios that can justify why he's just slammed on the brakes while ascending from the bottom of the 53st tube.
Last Saturday on the Cape May Seashorelines Vince the engineer slowed down for all grade crossings, even when traffic from both directions was already stopped and obviously nobody was going to try to beat the train. I mentioned it to the conductor and he said that since the Budd RDC (M410) doesn't have ditch lights, it must slow to 20 mph for grade crossings.
Hmm, that also explains why the HBLR has to slow to 20 at the grade crossings. They aren't allowed to honk anymore.
That's an idiotic restriction.
I know. Damned Nimbys ruined the fastest run on the West Side Ave line.
Funny thing but when I have been in cars with T/O's learning, they go pretty fast. The instructor tells them to be agressive.
Yeah I agree. There are too many "scardeycats" out there. But it's probably a product of the much stricter TA rules vs. years ago. I notice many a times some T/O's allow way too much time for a signal to clear. Well they're afraid of getting tripped I guess. The TA doesn't fool around anymore with T/O's who go through red signals because of a few incidents. WD's are also a result of those incidents as well.
I do notice the older senior guys seem to push the timers more, I guess they trust their experience a little more.
It's okay to leave leeway in one-shot timers. But T/Os really should not allow two-shots to clear so far in advance. They're supposed to turn green as you pass them, and if they don't then you know to slow down. Sometimes, T/Os will be in a section timed at 35. They go through at 30 and the timer clears to green within a few inches. Then they slow down. Helloooo? If it cleared perfectly that means you're going the right speed!
How do you know how fast the train is going? Do T/Os let you into full cabs if you ask?
Some T/Os let you look in the cab, some you look in to the crack of the door to get the speed.
R-62 and R-62A cab doors have windows. Since every cab has a speedometer, there's no need to look over the T/O's shoulder -- just peer into the cab in any other car.
R-32 speedometers are often visible through cracks in the hinges.
Are there any on the Oldark Country Superway?
Does anyone know where I can find the service changes to the Manhattan Bridge Construction diversion? I found very informative and descriptive details of the changes on the www.mta.nyc.ny.us website, but it didn't show any lines that would be affected.
Much gratitude to the person who answers this ?.
;-)
Railfan Pete.
oops - http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/subway/mn_bridge.html
I've been to that site. Are you sure that the only lines that will be affected are the B, D, and Q lines?
Directly affected, yes.
The entire system will be indirectly affected.
Like those strip maps all over the A-Division and those automated recordings on the R142 and R142As.
Does anyone have the information on when the Comet II car rehab. program will be finished?
I know that the first 9 cars left NJT property in April of 1999, and I don't know if NJT sent any more, and/or how long it takes to rehabilitate those 9 cars that are down in Maryland.
A lot of Comet II's (non-refurbished cars) are in operation in NJT's Raritan Valley line, Atlantic City line, and selective lines in the Hoboken Division, with a mix of Comet I's and Comet 2B's.
[A question answered gives a little bit of wisdom to the mind.]
Railfan Pete.
Ugh! Some selected NECL (Northeast Corridor) Trains have these cars too! I hate them-- no center doors.Often times the Firday PM 825 to NYP from MetroPark has these.
.
Look around when you do get one of those trains. It may have the Club Car (5759).
Have a look here in the archives for the text of the NJT take-one I posted a while back. It seems the answer is mid-2002.
John
At least one car (5302) has returned and is in service as we speak. I saw it on an otherwise solid trainset of Comet IVs about a month ago on the MidTown Direct.
Remember, the GOH'ed Comet IIs can no longer play with anything except the Comet IIIs and IVs.
Ever notice that cars always run in groups, ie:
Comet III and IV (since they can't mix with anyone else).
Comet II (all denominations) and Comet IB (Arrow I)
Comet I (both low and high door), Comet IA
All Metro North Cars stick together and rarely leave the Hoboken div.
Comet IIs / MNRR Shoreliners are rarely in a train with Comet Is, unless the Comet II or Shoreliner is the cab car.
And I am very annoyed that my favorite NJT Car, formerly the one in all the ads for NJT, #5135, is being renumbered and castrated into a trailer. It was bad enough it was xferred to Metro North and given a horribly done half-assed relogoing. I was considering that car as my handle before I chose this one (Henry Bombardier CII #5135).
The thing is... NJT has traded the Comet IV cab car #5009 which formerly belonged to Metro-North for 2 Comet II cars from NJT property.
I have seen the #5009 a few times on the Northeast Corridor serving passengers and I actually have been lucky to ride it once. The interior looks just like a Comet III car, except with Comet IV characteristics.
The tri-colored stripe is only present in one of the four locations, and the symbol M & Metro-North Commuter Railroad can still be seen. (They removed it but you can see the outlines.)
Also, the Comet II car can be mixed with Comet IA's. I've seen them on the Raritan Valley line.
What type of car is #5135? I know that it's a Comet car, knowing it from the car number specified.
: )
Railfan Pete.
5135 is the very first car NJTransit ever purchased (A Comet II). Everything else was handed down from previous agencies at the time.
Comet IB is the NJTransit Arrow I. Comet IA is the Metro North "new technology car" (or something like that, according to 1990's Hoboken Festival booklet) built from Arrow III shells. Looks just like an Arrow III except there is no center door, but there is a booth where the door would be similar to SEPTA's silverliners. The seats are a bitch to try and reverse, so usually they're left in the half 'n half position.
On the Comet II's there is a water dispenser with cups near the engineer's compartment. Modern trains are not equipped with those, but I think back when Bombardier manufactured those Comet II's they thought they could provide a little refreshment to the passengers while in transit. The Comet III's and IV's are manufactured by Bombardier as well, while Pullman-Standard started the fleet of the Comets with Comet I cars.
Railfan Pete.
Actually, all Comet class cab cars have the water cooler, it is primarily for the crew but anyone can use it. It is on the left side (cab in front) for the Comet II, and the right side for the Comet IV. Metro North shoreliners (all classes as well) also have a water cooler in the cab cars. On the two Comet IA cab cars, a section of the wall in the "booth" was cut out and a water cooler was placed inside. None of the Arrows IIIs have water coolers, though I'm not sure about the Arrow I / Comet IB.
I don't know if SEPTA's push-pull cab has a water cooler, I've never been in one. But it has a restroom, something nothing else on SEPTA has, so it's reasonable to assume it's also got a water cooler.
Just out of curiosity...what kind of water is used in those???
Poland Spring or Deer Park.
The water is an FRA requirement.
Wow. 116 new Comet II refurbished cars by early- mid 2002.
I'll be waiting to get on one of those...
: )
Railfan Pete.
Some Comet II's (non-refurbished) and Comet 2B cars (Comets without a center door) operate on the 5:03 weekday express train from NYP to Trenton. I see them fly past Metuchen on the local track #4, and I believe they go non-stop to Princeton Junction.
~Incredible!~ The Comet I cars are still in use on the Hoboken Division when manufactured by Pullman-Standard in the 1960's!
(Please correct me if I'm wrong)
I rode a Comet I car once with my dad on the route from Port Jervis to Hoboken. They didn't look bad at all both exterior and interior.
By the way, the car that I rode was #1758.
Railfan Pete.
The Comet-1's were built 1970-72. Montreal's ATM could buy them to replace their ex-CPR junque from the 1950's.
The 5:03 expresses from Newark to New Brunswick. When it is hitting everything right, it kicks.........
I agree with what u saying. There are great parts of certain express routes like the E, Q, A, and several others where operators slow down too freaking early. I am talkin about those Motormen who slow down at Green signals! There is especially a part on the Queens bound E express when after u pass thru 67th avenue the Train goes downhill makes a small left curve, and if there are no trains in front of you, then u can fly into Continental at 45 at least for R32s R46's alot faster. some Motormen And nothing against them but(Women) slow down at the homeball or before the curve, not to mention the signals are all green! I know some guys who will fly into Continental and hit the brakes madd late and still do it correctly and smoothly.
Don't get me wrong, i like Female operators. But they slow down too early, and the defeat the meaning of Express! I had a female on the E operating once, and she had R46 R's going faster than us! it was sad!! Lets be real, the job was called Motorman for a Reason!
I have another instance of a 'speeding' train at 42nd St- Times Square. I positioned myself at the end of the outbound (or Manhattan, Brooklyn bound) platform of the IRT 7th Av. Line (1,2,3,9). When there are no service diversions, (i.e. 2,3 trains on local track at 42) I observed this:
I hear the sound of an approaching train at 42.
A great wind strikes and out of the tube a 1 train (always with R62A cars) shoots out like a bullet doing about 40mph (I think) into the platform.
(By the time it gets to the middle, it has slowed down)
...And the skilled and experienced engineer brings the train to a steady stop without a rock.
'unbelievable'.
Now all is quiet except for the electric motors that are part of the undercarriage, and I view the last car of the 1 train sitting patiently for the doors to close and to move to Penn Sta. 34 St.
'Go, engineers, go.'
Railfan Pete.
Why does it seem male T/O's go faster? I don't really know, there is really no proof. My only guess is that it has to do with the difference between females and males. My only guess which could be totally wrong, I'm no expert, is there are more single men out there than women. And let me tell you being single is frustrating, you have to take it out on something, so most guys speed.
im on a 5 bronxthru express and when i get to 149st grand concourse the motorman says this a mahattan bound 2 train and the next stop is 135 street.
How? By continuing down the 2 track instead of the 5 track, that's how. The 2 and 5 stop on the same track at 149-GC so it's easy to reroute trains there from one to the other.
its pretty weird
Try this. I'm coming back from Harlem. A #5 pulls in at 125th and Malcolm X (Lenox). I figure "Oh well, it'll probably be thru express anyway." Wrong. The C/R calls it a deuce to the East when we're at 149th - GC. Even though it was all singed up as the Thru Exp. I later de - board the imposter at 3 Av.
I wonder if this was the same train???
see that what was talking about
Are you sure ALL of the rollsigns and the destinations specified were of the 5 train?
Also, look carefully at the front of the train, as destinations can be mixed up with Redbirds. If you state that your train was a #5 and not a #2, the destination sign would've said "5 Lexington Av. Express, Dyre Av. Eastchester, Bowling Green" and not "2 7 Av. Express, Flatbush Av., 241 St- Wakefield".
Some factors are taken into effect here.
1. Depends on where you boarded your train.
2. Depends on what time you boarded your train.
If you boarded your train in that area during rush hour service, the 5 also operates with the 2 the entire line in the Bronx and Brooklyn.
North of E180 St station, the 2 and the 5 trains divide to the east and west parts of the Bronx. Also, it's helpful if you listen to all of the announcements from the motorman or the conductor. They usually mention the direction and what train you're traveling on.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
all the roll signs said 5
destnation signs and everything
it was about 10:00 going downtown
all the roll signs said 5
destnation signs and everything
it was about 10:00am going downtown
The question is...
WAS the next stop 133 St?
You might be stuck on the wrong train if you're not subway smart because the 2 makes the same stops as the #5 until 96 St.
Railfan Pete.
na 135street
There was a defecit on the 2 so they sent the 5 to cover. Since it was 10:00 I doubt the train went to Flatbush, I'll bet it got to Chambers, pulled in on the local, discharged, and ran lite to Bowling Green via South Ferry.
your probaly right i got off at 34
There was a train BIE south of 138 so the 5 was going down the west side and the 4 was being turned at 149.
Great answer.........
really
This AM I took my college intern, Sharifa, out on a little field trip. Our first stop was the RTO training center where she got to operate both train simulators. Our last stop (other than Chinatown for lunch) was the RTO Control Center at Jay Street (not the same without Dick O'Neil screaming, "Waddayamean you don't have any damn busses, go out and hijack some") but interesting enough.
In between the simulators and the control center, we went to the Transit Museum where she's never been before. She was appropriately impressed with the nostalgia and history along with the great presentation. However, I found something there that I had never seen before. On exhibit was REVENUE CAR G. I don't imagine that tooo many of us have ever seen it before and I don't know where they've been keeping it but there it was and it, alone, was worth the trip.
Sharifa is going back with her family for another visit but for anyone who's not made their plans for the weekend, this one car is really worth the cost of admission.
Money car #G is on loan to the New York Transit Museum from its owner, the Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, Connecticut. It is the oldest surviving electric car from North America - mainly because it was built before the first electric car was! Car G was built as a trailer and converted to an electric car in the early years of the Manhattan Elevated.
Car "G" has been on loan from Shore Line Trolley Museum for a while now.
-Dave
Steve, Money Car G is the property of the Shoreline Trolley Museum, on long-term loan to the TA Museum. She's been there for a few years now.
BMTman
Several years?????
I need to get out more....
I think it's a 5 year loan. She hooked up to our BU 1227 for a last ride on our line just before she left (that was just before my time there).
Mr t__:^)
i saw a 3 train while i was waiting for 1 at 137st.how did that happen
and it wasn't becaus of the lenox rehab
Either a problem on the lenox or a defecit in service on the 1 prompted it to be sent there.
someone told me that there is a train yard down near 137st could that be it to
i have all so seen a #2 to new lots AVE
and a #2 to lenox terminal
1.There are 3 trains that come out of 137St in the Am rush.(About to end in a couple of weeks.)
2. There are 2/5 trains that run to Nlts Ave in the Am rush and come out of Nlts in the PM rush. Why? They are sleeping in Livonia Yard during the midday and weekends.
3. During the rush hour, 2/5 trains can be sent up the east or west side depending on the service or lack of. They can switch tracks at Nevins St, Bklyn or 149-GC, Bx.
Hope this helps.
3Train#2119Mike
thats pretty weird but cool
There IS a train yard outside of 137th St. Its about seven tracks, not incl. the layup M track.
The yard at 137 has 5 tracks which each hold 2 10 car trains. A few #3 trains are currently layed-up there overnight.
cool
but why the #3
Because Lenox Yard is very limited in terms of capacity. And there is free storage area at 137 Yard. The 1/9 won't need it as they have 240 Street Yard.
i know but don't the #1/9 go to 207 sometimes
r142man
jay
Maybe for some big maintainence.
good point
They go to 207 to use the carwash, since there is none at 240 St. In early August, the four 3 trains currently at 137 St yard will move to the Bronx and go into service at E.180 St.
That will be interesting to have 3 trains in the Bronx. But why is it being done?
cool youre r142 #2 and im r142man
but why
even i saw 3 trains on the #2 during the day
wait a minute it might heip the #2line in a way think about it
really ive seen 3 trains heading up the white plains rd line
Car wash dude. On the A-Division, there are car washes at 239 Street Yard, Westchester, and Corona. Also 207 which is shared.
so why come to the bronx almost everyday
Not everyday. Maybe a set or 2 a day.
There is a small yard north of 137th St. NOt only are 1 and 9 trains kept there, but some three trains are also kept there as well. Im assiuming that when you saw the three if it was not running light, it was during rush hour.
I personally appreciate it because if I switch to the downtown express at 96th St, sometimes a 3 will come in on the local track with practiaclly no one on it, either because it only hit a few stations on a line with short headways, or people are so confused that they dont get on it. Either way, when it happnes I almost always get a seat on that express run at 7:30 AM.
your right it was the am rush hour
Do the 3's from 137 make local stops to 96 or do they run express on the center track?
sometimes they run local
an sometimes turn express at 96st
SEPTA recently raised fares for both city transit and suburban service.
The cash fare is $2, but tokens can be had for $1.30.
However, even though fares went up for Regional Rail, you can still buy tickets from SEPTA ticket machines for the old, pre-July, fares! A software upgrade is still pending. This discount may be around for a while...
Totally unfair to city transit riders, though. Their fare increase is enforced right now. And if you bought monthly trailpasses the increase was enforced. But the ticket machines are on the old fares, for now. I bought a Zone 2 ticket, off-peak for $2.75 (the new official price is $3).
The ironic thing is...
Even if you can buy tickets at the pre-July fare on the machines, the SEPTA ticket machines cannot accept the new $20 bill!
What do they expect, no one can find an old $20 anymore, at least not me. They've all been replaced with the new design.
well....
Railfan Pete.
NJT machines charge the new fare.
whats going to happen to the r110a
I've heard conflicting stories of the cars being retrofitted with R142 seating and a return to service, and another saying they will be scrapped.
do you no what line
Hopefully someone has the answer, as to what will happen to this train.
i hope it would come back in service
The latest I heard was they were to be scrapped since they were only a prototype for the 142's.
good point but look at the R110b
I have asked about this down at 370 Jat Street and even there I get different versions of the "real" story.
(a) It is waiting to be scrapped.
(b) It is waiting to be returned to KHI for rehabilitation to R142 specifications and returned to service after all the R142 deliveries are completed.
I tend to give more credibility to the rehabilitation story. There is no reason to wait to be scrapped. But the reason for waiting to be rebuilt would be to determine and thoroughly test all modifications being made to the 142's
well good point ,i wonder if they are still testing it
The R-110As (IRT Div) are in mothball storage at Pitkin Yard. I guess the TAs hands are full with the R-142/142A order. When that dies down something will happen to the 110As, just what we don't know now.
Bill "Newkirk"
but its only one train set??? i thought it was alot of train sets to make a line.
"but its only one train set??? i thought it was alot of train sets to make a line."
There are only 10 cars of the R-110A trainset. It was an experiment to test new technologies that has given birth to the R-142/142A.
Bill "Newkirk"
its another train to add to the fleet if they do bring it back
"its another train to add to the fleet if they do bring it back "
Let's hope they do that. I would be stupid to do anything else with these cars. Nothing wrong with the body, just gut everything to the shell and rebuild from scratch.
If it is done, will they still have their 8000 series numbers or be renumbered to a 7000 series number after the last R-142A.
Bill "Newkirk"
i hope they do that
and change the seats around
what line would they put it on hopefully the #2 again
if they dont renumber it it would seem to be an outkast or outcast
r142man
jay
If it gets rebuilt to R142A specs, it'd be a R252(A)squared.
what!!!!!!!!!!! you lost me
Whoops. Some math problems. It'd be a R252(2a). Add R110A and R142A. Why R142A and not R142? R110A was built by Kawasaki. They'd send it back to Kawasaki I'm pretty sure. And Kawasaki builts R142As. Not R142s. There are more differences than you see.
yeah i know that
good point
The reason why 7 Trains go slow in the Steinway street tube between Vernon Blvd and GCT is because when Trains are in under river tubes, speed is restricted to 35! The timers just help enforce this. Just like Wheel detectors prevent C Trains and E Trains from flying into Canal on the downtown side. Same for uptown trains at Canal. I say if u want great speed in a underriver tube, Ride a N or R thru 60th street tube between Queens plaza or Queensboro plaza to 59th and lex. Especially R32s. I have seen 3862 on a Manhattan bound N do 65, and R's can reach around 59-60. especially R32s. R's cannot do too fast because they have a curvey before the tube. N's go faster because its a downhill as soon as u enter the tube.
By the Way, LIRR trains headed to NY, have the best speed. Especially by Rosedale stations, trains reach 75. I love LIRR for its speed.
I have ridden an R several times between Queens Plaza and 59St- Lex Av.
I think the main reason why the R's (esp. when they use R46's)do not go as fast because of their weight. 60-foot R32's and R38 are more easily ventured and cruised through the tunnels than 75'-ers.
The R32's and 38's take off a lot of weight (about 10,000 lbs. or 5 tons per car) compared to the R46 trains.
More electricity is needed to move a heavier object.
Wouldn't the train legnth matter more than car legnth? If an R-44/46 consist of 8 cars vs. an R-32/38 consist of 10 cars is about the same legnth, wouldn't the same electricity be required to move it? If not, it seems like the B-division could save lots of money by going to really short legnthed cars.
Electricity has little to do with whether the R-44/46 move well or not. It depends on the type of traction motors that move the train and how much horsepower they can produce from rest and in motion. The R-46 doesen't really produce as much hp from rest as the R-44 can, but in continuous motion those motors can really move that SOAB.
The R-32/38 seems to move better than the R-44/46 since they are shorter by 15', but in reality the gear ratio is lower, and the fleet(s) got a hp boost during GOH.
65 in an r32? wish i'd been there.
the lirr PROBABLY has a speed limit of 79mph, i know that's the limit on the metro-north hoboken to middletown, and i think it applies to all passenger service (on track of a certain quality, b/c middletown to port jervis is 60mph) except amtrak's n/e corridor. i was on several of the excursions that the C&O 614 ran out of hoboken between 1995 and 1998. someone claimed to have clocked it at 92mph returning to hoboken one afternoon. i was measuring it by the mileposts and got a consistent 85-88 between suffern and e.rutherford, so a burst of 92 isn't out of the question at all.
on the northbound runs there was an open car, frames w/ windows removed, directly behind the locomotive. the only thing that could possibly top that would be a cab ride, which unfortunately i have never had.....:(
Best speed - Trenton Express between Elizabeth and New Brunswick after the S curve.
Been on some ALP-44's that have topped out at 90 to 95. I think the Arrow III's pull 80 to 85 easy.
The 6:33 out of Penn currently has ALP equipment, and some nights you can look out the front if the loco is pushing. If everything is running OK, it's a great run.
is the r11oa still out there
was it that bad of a train
it is in pitkin yard
don't know if it will be put back in service.
left there to figure out what to do with it
wow .thats a surprise i liked it
are any irt trains sent to pitkin yard
no just that one for it was only a test train.
i thought so
i was on an r142 on the #2 and when im at 233st the lady says this is nereid ave
the conductor must have pushed the wrong button or something
happens alot on that line
i didnt pay any attention to it because it happened twice
it happens alot. notice how it doesn't happen with the R-142A's on the six. only the experienced run that one. the R-142 on the 2, the conductors know how to run it but slip up sometimes.
i should operate the #2 somtimes .
i think the drivers on #6 had a test on how to operate the r142a
thats the reason why they are good at it on the 6
thats right we better belive it
On the R142's the automated voice should make two announcements. One saying what stop the train is currently on, and the second one stating "The next stop of this train will be ________"
I guess if your train was at 233rd St. and the voice said "This is Nereid Av." then it is the fault of the conductor.
I liked the conductor that was on the R142 on the 6 line. When I stepped out at 51St- Lexington Av. station, the automatic voice was clearly audible. Also, the conductor spoke with a lot of clarity in his voice so as to avoid any confusions.
He spoke with the right tone, right speed, and with a clear voice.
I really think that we should put more experienced and 'good' conductors onto the R142's, than people who usually talk fast and are a little careless about it.
Railfan Pete.
good idea
Frankly, I don't see too much of a difference betweeen the two lines. Commonly on the #6, the female announcement will say "This is Morrison - Soundveiw Av," while the interior digital sign board will say "This is Morrison Av." Since a lot of locals get off at that stop, luckly no one has made the mistake of riding on to the next stop due to confusion from the double talk.
Queens Plaza,116 st. lex. ave. , DeKalb ave.(bdqmnr), astoria line to be repainted, brook ave. 6 line, more to come.
some stations in the bronx on the #6 really need it
Some stations on the J line are finally BEING renovated (Big Smile)
Don't forget the White Plains el.
And before everything, CHAMBERS ST ON THE J/M/Z!!!
What's it gonna take to get this station rehabbed, a cave-in?
To answer questions:
1-Hewes, Flushing. Kosicuszko, and Halsey will be started as soon as the work wraps up on Lorimer,. Gates and Chauncey.
2- Alabama, Van Siclen, Cleveland, Norwood and Cypress Hills are int he five year plan.Marcy will be contracted later this year and will include elevators.
3- Chambers is also in the five year planas is the White Plains Line from jJackson all the way to 241 .
4- Ave H,J,M,U, and Neck Road on the Brighton are also in the five year plan.
For details of the plan see the MTA web site and click on 2000-2004 capital program.
For all elevated stations wood mezzanines will be replaced with metal
Here's the list:
FY2002: East Tremont(177) and all other 2 line from Jackson to 241, Lexington/51st,74/Roosevelt,Times Square Phase II(BMT/7),Marcy.
ADA Marcy, Euclid,Pelham Pkwy 2,Lexington/51,W4,H,J,U (Brighton),77,86,116(Lex),Queens PLAZA(E,F,G,R,V)
2003:Mt Eden,176,170,167,Myrtle/Wyckoff,Woodlawn, Fordham(4),Burnside, Ave M,Neck (Brighton);Alabama to Crescent on the J;Jay Street DESIGN,
2004:Bedford Park, Kingsbridge, Moshulu (4),96 (1,2,3).
Transfers:phase 1 Court Square (2001),Bway-Laff/Bleecker(2004), DESIGN only Jay/Lawrence (2001)
even 180STREET
WHAT ABOUT 72street on the #1,2,3,9lines
72nd is being done now. Should have omitted East 180.
Soon at 72nd the Northbound(uptown)local track is being moved slightly to the East so the platform can be lengthened.(SOURCE: ERA Bulletin. It did not say anything about the Southbound platform or SOuthbound local track.)
That's been my suspicion for a while. Sunlight has been streaming in through the wall at the north end of the northbound local platform.
How long does it take to move a track like this? It looks like I should get used to all service running express from 72 to 96 so the work can take place. Rats.
Im putting my money on Rector street(N and R)It looks like a big crackhouse with tracks
whats the story with the r62a
are they moving to corona anytime soon
Don't hold your breath. There will be no mass movements of R - 62As until the Kawasaki R - 142As have proven their reliabilty on the #6, which will definitly be a long time in coming.
but the 3 will also be giving us some r62a's. so if the 6 can't right now, the 3 will soon. by september we should be seeing a few r62a's on the 7
yeah the #3 is going ro get new cars
Where do you get this? Who told you that?
its a rumor
Then you use "I heard" or keep it to yourself. Some people might ignore the whole "I heard" part anyway. Wherever you heard that, the chances of that happening are very slim. The 2, 5, 6 and MAYBE 4 will get new cars. Some R62As from the 6 will go to the 3 Line. The 5-car sets from the 6 on the 3 will result in some extra R62A singles in use on the 3. Whatever from the 6 that doesn't go to the 3 and the singles from the 3 will make their way to the 7 Line.
and that will be in?....
it better come fast cause these deadbirds are going to die out on the rails one of these days
Once there are enough and R142As rolling around.
true
okay
well i know the #6 and the #2 have new cars and the #4,5 would have to get new cars because of the rustbirds
Where are you getting this? What is going to fill the void of the R62As that went to Corona on the 3 Line if it doesn't get any back from Westchester?
the r142a have proven reliabity on the #6 look how many they have
It's easy just press the brake all the way down wait until the bus fully stops and the doors open press the gas and the doors close.
That's nice, but it really belongs on BusTalk. I doubt the rail/subway fans here really care about buses. That's why Dave created BusTalk for the bus fans
I forgot that this was subtalk im reposting this on bus talk.
and on which line?
And lets hope there not slow or they will be called "Digital Hippos".
I'm hear to tell you...they are super digital hippos. Able to bend track in a single run (joking) I heard its normal weight. With new technology parts are getting smaller. SO the train would weigh less.
So expect the R-143 to have a decent weight for a car of it's design.
>>I'm hear to tell you...they are super digital hippos. Able to bend track in a single run (joking) I heard its normal weight. With new technology parts are getting smaller. SO the train would weigh less.<<
You evidently weren't here before. The Term 'hippo' was used to refer to the R-68's because someone thought that the R-68's were SLOW. Thing is, the R-68's are minimally slower than other car classes, and hippos are definitely not slow.
While the R68 has the ability to achieve speeds comparable to other cars, they never really do in actual service because their sluggish handling and slow acceleration rates prevent them. The term hippo is not necessarily an insult, just a descriptive nickname.
...just a descriptive nickname
It is NOT because the Hippo is a nimble creature.
But I like it, it shows off the sheer lack of knowledge and the stupidity on the part of the anti-R68 crowd.
Who is anti-R68? I'm not. Saying they are sluggish is not an insult, just a accurate description. Personally, I love the beasts.
Perhaps another animal out there would be a better choice for it's nickname.
true
Does your vocabulary consist entirely of one word?
I'd rather they be called hippo juniors, considering they'll be younger and smaller. Even if they are as sluggish as the R68's, the realities of the Canarsie line won't allow them to test their speed anyway, save for the 14th St. tubes.
With AC Traction, I will seriously doubt the sluggishness. You are looking at a basic twin of the R-142, propulsion wise. So we are looking at some fun fast times ahead on the (L) line.
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
true
So I guess you should call the R-42s the Hippo Father, right?
Get real.
All you people talked about was how slow they may or may not be. You never answered the questions if anyone knows when they will enter service. does anyone know?
No, we don't know, nor does anyone at the MTA. I'm not even going to guess at it since I don't have any information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They are supposed to go into service on the L line. Don't know when.
The first revenue test is supposed to be in October. Then it will probably be a few months before the shipment begins to be accepted.
I still maintain that the revenue test will be held on the C or Rockaways Shuttle. Or at least after it fails the first two times. Every time they have to make a modification it will have to be run on the test track, which happens to be in the Rockaways and a 2 hour journey from East NY Yard, involving running on the J over the bridge, through Chrystie st connector to B'wy Lafayette, where it will reverse via the 6th ave express tracks, down the F to Jay, then the A. Keep in mind this new modification hasn't been tested so there will probably be a protection train doing all this as well. They will get sick of it, and instead vote to hold it on a line with easy access to Pitkin (the C or Rockaways Shuttle).
Where it can run depends on its length. How long is it?
60', identical to cars running on the eastern division today. They will be configured into 4 car sets. There was a thought they'd be 67', like the old B-types and the R110B, but this idea was abandoned.
why
67 footers would require putting up new markers and conductors boards at different positions.
oh
Not exactly, the 67' er was supposed to be the unifying force, the car that had fewer trucks like the 75' er, with the go-anywhere ability of the 60' er. The problem was, the trucks of the 110B were not designed the same way as the BMT standard, and the sideswipe on curves possibility was still present, making them useless on the Eastern Division. Rather than pull out the designs for the standards and try again, which would have meant another test train or possibly a modified test car, they figured they'd simply go with 60' ers.
60' cars make the most sense, at least geometrically. 6 67' cars would not be adequate to serve any eastern division lines today, and 8 cars wouldn't fit on a lot of the eastern division's stations today.
yeah your right
This was already done all along the A and D line, so I doubt this was a big deal.
it wasnt
They will need new conductor boards in one direction where thc conductor is now 3 cars from the front (the #1 cabs in the middle of the R-40/42 trains now do not have conductor's controls, so they use the 3rd car 1 way, 5th car the other)
So then what happens when they have to have 10 car trains on other lines?
"So then what happens when they have to have 10 car trains on other lines?"
They use other car classes.
The R-143 car class (four-car sets) is intended to fill up the L line, with anything left running elsewhere in the "Eastern Division".
The next order, R-160, is projected to consist of both four-car and five-car sets. It is expected that they will be used to re-equip the remainder of the Eastern Division (four-car sets) and start in on the E line (five-car sets).
David
R160's?
Any descriptive information about them?
Railfan Pete.
60 feet long. Will come in 4 car sets as well as 5 car sets. Will replace some cars.
Identical to 143.
Oh, so now they've decided on the E line?
Okay, here's the deal:
Chambers st is having some work done. As a result, J trains must run in two sections. Get this:
Jamaica Center and Canal.
Canal st and Chambers st(!)
Does anyone realize how dumb this is? The 6 is right there anyway and does the same thing as the shuttle! Here's another dumb fact: The turning track at Chambers is on the east (unrehabbed) side of the station. This means, of course, that anyone who usually transfers here for either direction has to walk all the way around the wall. This would be avoided if they simply reopened the direct staircase.
Here is the notice on the MTA's web site...
I disagree.Even though the 6 does the same stops as the shuttle,The connection between The J and 6 is obscured because the 6,J,Z and M would have to open the doors on both sidesat the same time without a malfunction or delay which is mpssible.plus the 6 would have to keep both doors open for at least 2 minuites more tha usual which would cause a 5-10 minuite delay on the lexington avenue line
What are you talking about?
Southbound:
People get off the J, walk to the 6, wait for the 6, get on the 6.
Northbound:
People get off the 6, walk to the J, get on the J.
I'm saying they would have to walkover from the passage ways.
This is going on in the middle of the night seemingly only (if I read the document correctly), so who knows how good 4/6 service is then.
4 and 6 are 10 minute total headways. The J is 20.
Nope, it's between Saturday 1AM and Monday 5AM, which includes the daylight hours of Saturday and all of Sunday.
Which means service on the Lex local is worse than at night.
Yes, it is silly. At night, service at Canal and Brooklyn Bridge is identical, so running a shuttle to Chambers is pointless unless you have a number of people who demand direct access to Chambers St. At that location and at that time, there probably isn't anyone who would need that. I guess this shuttle must run empty all night long.
BTW, do you know what work is being done at Chambers St????
Well, maybe I''m dense, so I don't follow the debate about turning tracks and all that. But what gets my attention is the possibility that they're using the remaining terminal track at Canal Street (toally rusted up, when I saw it last week). The track is bad shape, and scheduled for elimination, but still has timed signals and C/R signals at the platform. I'd like to see it in action.
There are transfers between the 4,6, and J at Chambers Street. I think the work is in prepration of the abandoning the eastern portion of the line.
There is no plan to abandon the eastern portion of the line at Chambers, only from Essex to Canal.
why they do that
Saves money on upkeep. The MTA proposal boils down to "it's cheaper in the long run to demolish/abandon these platforms and track segments than it is to maintain them unused, and there's no chance that Nassau St. is going to need four tracked service."
Their plan is actually to reduce passenger service to the west two tracks, but the current northbound track will be kept intact, presumably for non-revenue moves. The platforms will be closed.
Their plan is actually to reduce passenger service to the west two tracks, but the current northbound track will be kept intact, presumably for non-revenue moves. The platforms will be closed.
J3 will be abandoned but J1 will be kept live for non-revenue-service moves and reroutes in a similar fashion as E3 and E4, the centre-tracks on the Sea Beach. The switch complex compass-west (system south) of Essex St. will be removed completely. This will NOT affect the BJ1 and BJ2 connections, which will remain in-service.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
First of all, I need to know:
1. Why the T/A separated the J line between Canal St. and Chambers St, when they are only 1 stop apart!?
2. Are they going to do a rehab. project during this weekend? because this service note is in effect as we speak until 5AM Monday.
3. I'm not familiar with the layout of Canal St. because I've never been there with the J and the 6 terminal.
4. Yes, the 6 line makes the same stops as the J between Canal and Chambers Sts.
5. But the service notice says transfer between the two points at Canal St. so would passengers who would want service to Canal have to walk somewhere to get the J shuttle?
[Answers to these questions are greatly appreciated.]
= )
Railfan Pete.
1. Why the T/A separated the J line between Canal St. and Chambers St, when they are only 1 stop apart!?
The side platform at Essex was under construction (or maybe pre-demolition), so Manhattan-bound trains were rerouted to the center track and the island platform. At Bowery, they stopped at the southern track on the northern platform. From there, it's not possible to get back onto the usual track to Chambers. I heard some rumors about the switch between Bowery and Essex being out of service, which would explain the diversion - anyone know more?
5. But the service notice says transfer between the two points at Canal St. so would passengers who would want service to Canal have to walk somewhere to get the J shuttle?
The Nassau St. platforms at Canal are your basic four-track pair of island platforms, except that the center two tracks dead-end at the southern end of the station, and the platforms are joined at that point. If you don't mind some ugly ASCII art,
(next stop north: Bowery)
N Track 1 2 3 4
| | | | |
W-+-E | | | |
| | |\ | |
S | | \ | |
| | \ | |
| | \ | |
| | \| |
| | | |
|******| |******|
|******| |******|
|*West*| |*East*|
|*Plat*| |*Plat*|
|*form*| |*form*|
|******| |******|
|******| |******|
|******= =******|
|*******************|
| |
| |
(next stop south: Chambers)
Normally, tracks 2 & 3 are unused, Chambers trains use track 1, and Brooklyn trains use track 4. Today, southbound J trains approached on track 2, crossed over to track 3, and stopped there, leaving on 3 and returning to their usual track at Essex. The shuttle to Chambers, signed up as a grey S, used track 1. Tracks 2 and 4 were unused.
The track numbers from left to right are J2, J4, J3, and J1. The switch to the north of the station is cut off from J4. So J4 from inside the station goes no where.
There is no track on J4 inside the station. Just roadbed and third rail.
There was one recently, but I've never seen it used in over 15 years.
Thanks for the correct track numbers - I didn't have a set of maps handy. I was surprised to see J4 is still completely out of service, since it'll need to be back in place for the track realignment.... presumably that job is waiting until the work between Chambers and Canal starts as well.
I'm curious how trains will run during the construction. The stairways on the northbound platform at Canal seem to be permanently closed off, but they'll also need to sever the connection between platforms to install the new track, leaving a period of time where only track J2 is useful. I'd anticipate trains in two parts, with a single track shuttle from Bowery to Chambers/Broad, except that won't work well for M service. Anybody know the plans in better detail?
I don't know the plans, but service can continue on the tracks used today as long as either the NB staircases are reopened or a temporary bridge is built over the center tracks near the SB staircases. Since one of those will need to be done eventually, I wish the TA would hurry up and do it now.
I got it! I can see it already.
|J, M, Z Trains|
|ALL TIMES|
Brooklyn-bound trains bypass Canal Street Station.
There will be mass confusion as both side leads to Brooklyn!
That's too important a station to be bypassed.
Then again, this is the J/M/Z we're talking about. In the TA's eyes, nothing's important about that line.
Yep, that's why the Chambers St. station looks like it was nuked. As well as Canal, then Bowery, and half the stops on the Bway El.
I got it: The K gets one last fling as the entire Nassau line is closed for one week preceding the realigment. The M turns at Myrtle, and the J/Z run to 21st Queensbridge. All Queens Blvd services return to their current state for that week.
Chambers Street having some work done, eh?
Sort of brings to mind the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike.
Wonder what they're really up to there. Capital plan says they are spending $37M for "structural deficiencies". If there ever was an understatement....or perhaps the situation has reached critical mass.
wayne
I don't know if Chambers is having work done -- there's a temporary wall on the center platform and the northbound platform was closed today, so I couldn't check. I didn't hear anything, though.
OTOH, a new platform edge was being installed at Essex. Then again, that doesn't necessitate running service in two sections -- trains can switch back to the usual southbound track just past Essex.
IINM, trains entering the turning track at Canal key by a permanently red signal.
As of 07/13/01
7426-7435 are now running in service.
I saw that train running yesterday afternoon while i was coming from MTA Headquater.
Peace
David Justiniano
Nice long new handle meany...
kick a$$
They've been ruuning for about a week now.
true
I find something strange about these 5 car classes that never ran on this IRT mainline which is the #6 line. Why didn't they saw service on the #6 line? Was there a time that they were on the #6 line prior to there retirement in the mid 1980's or so?
I don't think any of these cars (R-12/14/15/21/22)as a rule ever ran on this line. These cars were generally assigned to the IRT West Side Line with the exception of the cars that were assigned to the #5 line since they shared the same yard which served the #2 line. The R-12/14/15s were originally assigned to the IRT Corona Flushing line until the R-33/36WF cars arrived in 1963-1964.
BMTJeff
Back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the No. 1 and No. 4 trains pretty much ran everything, but the R-21/22s seemed to spend more time on the west side lines, while the R-17s and the R-33s dominated the No. 6. The R-12/14/15s seemed to show up on the 1, 2 and 5 lines the most, and in the mid-70s the R-36 WF cars that got shuffled over to the main line seemed to live most of their lives over on the B'way local.
And during that same period (the early-to-mid ’70’s), some R36ML’s inexplicably showed up on the 7 line, presumably to make up for those R36WF’s that went over to the mainlines of which you spoke.
You know, I think you are correct.
I remember R17's and the mainline R33's/R36's, but never the above car classes that you mention.
Hey, someone want to check the pictures on this site?
I also forgot that the pink-seatted R-26/28 cars were the other ones that operated out of Westchester yard on the No. 6 line during the 1960s/70s. Maybe it's because it provides the only service for areas of the Upper East Side, but the No. 6 train has traditionally been treated better overall in terms or car classes than most of the other IRT mainline routes over the last half century.
As I recall, having grown up on the East Side in the late 50's, the Lexington Avenue Line had Lo-V's assigned to the expresses and the "new" cars (the 1950's "R" cars) assigned to the locals. I believe at least one factor that came into play was the gap fillers (aka, "moving platforms") found at South Ferry, Brooklyn Bridge (until 1962) and 14th Street. The newer cars, with door spacing that was significantly different from the Lo-V's, required that these gap fillers be torn out and re-positioned. Had all of the gap fillers been replaced at once, only new cars could be run on these lines. Since the IRT wouldn't be completely re-stocked until 1964, this would mean an imbalance of rolling stock. On The Lexington, the gap fillers were moved on the local side (where there were fewer of them, anyway) so that new rolling stock could be added. Once there were sufficient cars for all lines, the express side could be altered.
I never rode on the Seventh Avenue line in those days so I don't know when the South Ferry gap fillers were moved, or what rolling stock was being used on the # 1 train. I DO know that the Seventh Avenue Line had the majority of the Hi-V's, which were, of course, the oldest and most decrepit of the IRT rolling stock, so that line was most deserving of the biggest new fleet of cars, the R-22's.
R-12's, R-14's, and R-15's did not begin to appear on any mainline IRT lines until after 1964, when the Flushing Line received the blue-and-white R-33's and R-36's. Even then, many of the R-12's and R-14's were sent to the Bronx 3rd Avenue El to replace the Low-V's and 1939 WF cars.
There was also a brief time in the late 1950's when the 1939 WF cars appeared on the Lexington locals, probably because their door positions were similar to that of the newer cars. This was probably around the same time that some R-17's were assigned to the Flushing Line to complete the restocking of that line with new equipment.
I quickly checked the pictures of the R15 and R21-R22's on this site, and there were none of these cars on the Pelham.
If you think about it, the Pelham is almost off to a world onto it's own. It doesn't share the Lexington Ave. Local tracks with any other line, nor does it go into Brooklyn where car changes could have occurred at New Lots.
It pretty much can have a dedicated fleet.
And it probably will have a dedicated fleet when all 400 R142As are in service on the 6 line.
I would have to agree with you regarding your statement. I've seen enough pictures and it seems likely that the R-12/14/15/21/22s never saw service on the No.6 line. You can add the R-26/28/29s which saw service on the No.6 line in the meantime.
BMTJeff
I rode Westinghouse R-22s on the #6 in the early part of the mid-1980s.
David
I guess that was one of the few times that an R-22 was assigned to the #6 line.
BMTJeff
I would consider that the mid-eighties was the beginning of the end for those car classes. The R62A's were just around the corner, and maybe some equipment was being moved around. This looks like it was an exception to the rule.
There were pictures of those classes on the #4, but since the 4 runs out to Brooklyn, it would be very easy to play musical trains with a rush hour 2, 3, or 5 to get these car classes on the 4.
I can briefly offer that there was an occasional R21 or 22 on Pelham in the late 50's when they were new but I can't remember ever seeing a solid train of them...they'd be mixed with R17's, a good mix.But it was not a normal practice IIRC Pelham was all R17 until the R26 showed up, then R29 and 33.
I recall from the mid 1950s (maybe 56 or 57) riding on R-15s on the Lexington Ave. local (6 line). I don't know if this was a rare or common assignment at the time.
-- Ed Sachs
I don’t know about that, but if that were the case, this must’ve been around the same time that a few R17’s were running on the #7 Flushing line.
Yes, I rode in R22 car # 7502 on the 6 line in Oct. 1984. This is about the time cars were being ressigned. The R 62's were appearing on the #4.
#6 Line:
1955 R17
1959 R17 R26 R28
1966-1984 R17 (Starting about) 6740-6899 R26/28 7800's R29 8570-8599 R33 (Starting about) 9075 -9305. There was no R12, R14, R21, R22's ever assinged to the #6. Except as above. Strange wasn't it?
I was riding a R-142 southbound, I saw a five car train of brand new R-142's I only caught the last car# which was 6626, I believe I saw the delivery around 9:10, at the 174th street station.I couldnt see the train too well because of the cloudy railfan window on the R-142 that I was on, so I only caught the last number only.I caught another R-142 at Park Place car number 6610.This train looked brand spanking new.
I knew it. All I had to do was guess by seeing the two locomotives with Rider Car sandwiched in between them (heading south at Jackson Av about 10:30PM) and I say, they did another delivery.
6626?
6626-30 are here.
-Stef
6511-20 is entering service as of monday
yes another train to head on the #2
Only a matter of time before the supplemental cars are delivered.
that because 6610 is farly new
i think delivery 2 weeks ago
Yes, I saw the delivery on Linden Wye heading to the #3 line from the stoop of my house. This was 7:30pm.
Just got off work at Stillwell...... There were about 15 guys from the signage department installing the new signs......They are all over the terminal...... From now till the 22nd, things are gonna be confusing at Stillwell.
M.W.
Also, The new maps are in. There was a box in the crew room. I grabbed a bunch. They should be in stations soon.
New Map SEEN at Atlantic Avenue (D, Q) Platform.
I heard a rumor they will be ordering conductors to hand these new flyers out for the new pick. BTW, if there is no supplement, I should have the last Northbound Daily West End/Bridge/6 AV before closure.
Don't you feel special?
Damn Straight He Should!!!!
Those that know, Know.
When you come right down to it, I don't feel there was a real reason to rename the Brooklyn "B" the "W".
During the last bridge flip in the mid-eighties, there was a just yellow "B" that ran up Broadway to Astoria.
And let's be historically accurate. Sure, "W" stands for West End, but it was the "T" that provided Astoria, Broadway, West End service prior to Chrystie Street.
It is only going to make things more confusing with the arrival of the "V".
OK, I feel better now ..................................
That's not the real reason for the name change. It was done to reflect the quality of service on the West End line.
B = Bad
W = Worse
Whoomp, there it is.
Good one..........................
Why worse? West End service won't be any worse than it is now after the flip.
On weekends it will be worse, when you won't get any further than PACIFIC STREET on the "W". Woe.
wayne
True, but most people don't use the subways regularly on the weekends. Normal weekday service will remain the same, if configured differently.
oh man pretty funny
B= Bad
W= Worse
T= worsT
No.
B = Bad
W = Worse
T = Terrible
yer right; I had writers block!
And let's be historically accurate. Sure, "W" stands for West End, but it was the "T" that provided Astoria, Broadway, West End service prior to Chrystie Street.
But only for a short time. It was the "T" at most from the delivery of the first R27s in 1960 until Chrystie Street in 1967. Seven years tops! But for a good chunk of that time R27s only ran either not at all or during nights and weekends, and then often as "TT."
The Triplexes finished their runs on the West End in 1965 as the 3, which had been the line number designation since (IIRC) 1924. For most of its history, of course, the West End equipment carried neither letter nor number for most of its history.
So "T" would commemorate a point in time. For history, it's been the West End for more than a century.
I can see your point, not that I agree with it.
But Paul, the first letter designation of the West End was T. Even if only 7 years. It was the first, same as Q and N.
But Paul, the first letter designation of the West End was T. Even if only 7 years. It was the first, same as Q and N.
I see your point, but with relatively minor exceptions (J, M) and the fact that Eastern and Southern Division letters were separately grouped, the extension of the letter system to the BMT was done without any particular logic, especially not the logic under which it was originally formed for the IND. Returning to "T" would unnecessarily affirm an era in which the TA was consciously trying to separate the system from its historic routes, i.e., line names.
So after more than three decades of non-use, I see little reason not to "right a wrong" and adopt a letter (W) that has some connection to a broader historical context.
How about this:
B - Bad
T - To
W - Worse
I hear what you are saying. I just want to be consistent.
Q - Quick
T - Thinking :)
Or, to all the people who'll be shouting next week when the bridge changes -- required by the DOT and out of the MTA's control -- take effect:
F - For
N - Now
Q - Quit
W - Whining.
How in the hell will you R-142s fans ever live this one down ?? he he he he he he lol !!!
MAN THE ULTIMATE INSULT A BEAUTIFUL REDBIRD SAVED A R-142 !!! lol !! lol!!!!
It just happened to be the next train in line available. You know, it could have been a R-142 saving another R-142! LOL !!!
Chuck Greene
...well, yeah.. but that wouldn't make it a memento.
brotherly love
Its a smack to the R-142, but hey it's a new car, still crawling. But alot of new yorkers are glad to see the redbirds go, and the R-142 staying.
I say the biggest insult is if the R-142 is the train to push the redbirds into the water to create the reef. Dont be there, you'll cry. So will all subway buffs.
For now yep, it's an insult, but the R-142 is performing well, the redbirds are fighting against death.
Salaam,
Much as I hate to admit it - the Redbirds are the dinosaurs, the R142s are the meteor. So face facts the Redbirds will become extinct.
its true
...if that's how you choose to view it...
i love the r142 and they work just fine when they have inspected
you will just never give it up
it was only one time
Salaam, Your point of view is wrong (immaturely so) for two obvious reasons.
First, you are overlooking the obvious. The incident was due to a rotted protection board over the third rail. It had nothing to do with a mechanical failure of the train. The train sustained damage similar to damage any other train would have sustained under the same circumstances.
Second, you are humanizing an inanimate object. The R-142 cannot be insulted because that's an emotion that machines are not capable of having. The R-142 is a machine, a machine that was towed back to a repair facility. It was not an athlete that collapsed on the playing field. It is just a machine.
You can continue to pine away for the impending loss of your beloved redbirds. I'm sure others feel similarly. But your arguments are simply grasping at straws that will not support you. The Redbirds will become redfins as sure as today is Saturday. Take some pictures, put one in your backyard if that will help but stop with the irrelavent arguments because they only make people think you are less intelligent and make you a target for continual ridicule. Give it up, captain. The ship is goin' down.
your right train dude the damn thrid rail incident could have happened to a redbird .the redbirds are yesterdays news
When was the Northbound platform opened? When was the exit to Bowling Green park (now gone) opened and what did it look like and when did the shuttle platform open?
The Bowling Green station used to look a lot like its sister stations at Wall and Fulton, in terms of the original tiling that was kept at those stations. As built back in 1908, Bowling Green included the island platform and the shuttle platform for service to the new South Ferry station. The side platform for uptown trains was put in around 1974-75, along with the underpass area between the uptown and downtown platforms and the esclators to the street on the new uptown platform side (and the stairs on the northwest corner of B'way and Battery Place, for that matter).
The station rebuild was done just about the same time or shortly after the remodeling of the BMT 49th St. station at Seventh Ave., which explains why the tile/brick looks similar.
Did they have to shut down service on the Lexington line, or did trains continue to run through to/from Brooklyn without stopping while they did the '74-75 rebuild?
Wasn't there an entrance right in Bowling Green park until the 70s renovation?
No. As I recall, the entrance for both uptown and downtown lines was only through the station house on the SW corner of State St. and Battery Place, with the only underpass from the island platform to the shuttle platform, though I may be mistaken about their not being a northern exit to the station. But there was extensive rennovation done to both the station and the park in the 1970s overhaul.
Then why does the AIA guide mention the elimination of a 50s era modern glass entrance in the 1978 renovation?
If there was a glass entrance, it would have been at either the far northern end of the park, where Broadway and Whitehall Streets merged, or on one of the sidewalks to either side of the park, since all of the entraces -- both at the southern end of the park and the one on the NW corner of B'way and Battery Place -- date from the 1974-75 renovation.
Why would it have to have been at the far northern end? If the current entrances date back to 1974-75, then that doesn't make the presence of an older entrance implausible. Unless of course you mean the mezzanine structures.
I thought the AIA guide was talking about a structure that was removed from the existing entrance at the southern end of Bowling Green, right in front of the old Custom House.
yulp
Please e-mail me, I have a question I need to ask you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Kevin - do you have a non-Earthlink address? Earthlink is blocking inbound mail from @home and I'd like to write you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When MNRR 'transferred' those Shoreliners to the Port/Pascack Lines, they changed the names on the sides-making them more locally oriented...Does anyone have a list matching car #s to the new west of Hudson names?? Thanks!
Check out the bottom of the page at http://www.hobokenterminal.com/passengerroster.html.
Thanks! Since that page was last updated, I THINK that some others were changed too...I have seen a "Spring Valley" car for example.....
Uh-oh, don't tell me they've changed the names of the three cars they transferred last year... High Tor, James Finnmore Cooper, and I forgot the third.
Also, the east-of-hudson cars have gotten name changes. The Montrose, for example, no longer exists.
They may have also transferred additional cars. If I remember my Mileposts West correctly from last Thanksgiving, there should be 32 Shoreliners on their way. I saw MNRR #6101 in that yard east of Newark a few months ago, but it was the same place I saw CT Transit's Nutteger a year ago so I didn't think anything of it.
The idea,I guess is to make the names 'more compatible' with the area they are serving......Will be interesting to see what they use after they run out of station names...[One could be 'Stephen Crane', the "Red Badge of Courage" author who lived in PJ for a while....]
drom LATIMES today
>>Average weekday ... 17.4-mile line, ...from North Hollywood through Hollywood and Mid-City to Union Station,... 150,025 in June, jumping by 15,350, or about 11%, from May<<
numbers to quiet the naysayers! note that the ridership per mile operated is larger than DC or BART let alone any of the other new start light rail lines(including LA's own Blie and Green--sucessful as they are)
That is good news.
>>> numbers to quiet the naysayers! note that the ridership per mile operated is larger than DC or BART <<<
But where do they get the numbers from? The Red Line is POP without turnstiles, and riders include those with monthly passes as well as those who purchase single tickets good only on the day purchased. I doubt very much that those numbers reflect only single tickets at the stations, and the number of riders using monthly passes has to be an estimate at best since the monthly passes can be used throughout the LAMTA. My own observations of the number of users during off peak times makes me take these figures with a grain of salt.
The ridership on the Red Line should be good since the Cauenga Pass where the Red Line runs is a choke point between the San Fernando Valley and downtown Los Angeles, and the LAMTA stopped the Freeway Express Buses that used to provide service there. Where else could riders dependent on public transportation go? The real question is has automobile traffic on the Hollywood Freeway through the Cauenga Pass decreased? If so the Red Line is a success.
Tom
the red line subway cars do remind me of those crappy litte r-142s they sound like em' too !!
by the way the ac often 1/2 works on those italian built breda cars as well !!! ( oh well ) !!...
How funny you mention that particular line. I just got back from LA, where I took the red line on my way to Universal Studios. I was amazed at how wide the entrances to the stations are. LA had the vision to build something nice.
Unfortunately, the train was litered with newspapers, but everything else was clean. Due to construction, trains were running every 20 mins on Saturdays nights from 7-11pm.
The speed was also incredible. We must have done 60mph going into the Universal Studios train station.
But what surprised me was the fact that you can simply enter the Metro in LA without passing a turnstyle. But when you get off, there are cops waiting for you and if you don't have the ticket, you are busted.
For example, if I purchase a one-way ticket and board the LA Metro at station A to go railfanning, and get off at the same station, I actually need to buy a round-trip ticket. It's a strange way of collecting fares.
>>>>>For example, if I purchase a one-way ticket and board the LA Metro at station A to go railfanning, and get off at the same station, I actually need to buy a round-trip ticket. It's a strange way of collecting fares.
Other cities have that policy as well. So you just get off one stop before/after your starting point.
A strange way of collecting fares for a very strange place.
>>> So you just get off one stop before/after your starting point <<<
Not really good enough. They also check fares on the train, and if you are traveling toward the originating station without a round trip ticket, you just bought the big one.
Tom
I am sorry to burst your bubble here but living here has taught me something etc..
The blue & green lines ( light rail systems here ) also can do speeds uwards of 80 mph like those ITALIAN BUILT breda cars can do !
The red line "SUBWAY TO NOWHERE" should have never been built ever ! However a light rail system compatible with the blue & green lines should have been used instead of an entire underground infastructure which would have been great & would have served the los angeles county riding public much better ! ( For example san diego the muni system of san francisco st louis light rail systems to name a few )
Also i will remind all who see this that the long beach blue line was SUPPOSED to be connected as a ONE PIECE THRUWAY but now is divided betwen the 7th & metro station & the union railroad station near olivera streets & chinatown too far to even walk between the two ! the same tunnels that serve the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE could have gone to the union station where the pasadena blue line ( now under construction ) would have gone on to this completion at the sierra madrae station the end of the line in pasadena to be completed a few years from now !
So in other words we get a short crappy little RED LINE that destroyed many homes businessnes & many lives ( i will soon relase a free audio cassette on this for anyone who wants it )
And we also get a subway line ( not a compatible light rail line which we needed most of all ) & the big fat cats downtown get their TAJ MAJHAL luxury suite headquarters ant umpteem millions of waited dollars & we still dont have a decent rail transit system like we were promished 20+ years ago when we voted in a new rail tranist system NOT A BIG RIPOFF ( whew ) ....not ,lol !!
All I know, is that it must cost a ton of money to have police officers working as ticket takers, instead of simply installing some turnstyles.
>>> it must cost a ton of money to have police officers working as ticket takers, instead of simply installing some turnstyles <<<
How do you figure that? There are perhaps two police officers on duty on each line at any one time. Besides checking fares they provide security for the passengers. Consider the cost of their salaries compared to the cost of installing turnstiles plus preventing people from avoiding them. The Blue Line runs on the street at both ends. Preventing people from entering those stations without using turnstiles would be a major operation which would require someone to watch the turnstiles. Turnstiles require a closed system, which this is not. As it is now, most of the stations are unmanned. With a turnstile system, once a fare beater gets past the turnstile he is home free. On a POP system he is subject to being caught anytime during his trip.
And the police are not ticket takers. They just check the tickets. They will enter a car just as it about to pull out of a station and check all the tickets of those in the car. At the next station they get off and check the tickets of everyone on the platform while waiting for the next train. They are also on the lookout for anyone suspicious (or as Salaam will tell you anyone taking pictures without a permit whom they will beat mercilessly :-)).
Tom
Saalam says the red line goes no where. Tell that to the 1.2 million people who live in the San Fernando Valley that they live no where
LOOK MAN........!!... All I was saying is what the locals call it here !! the main argument here is not that we did not know we had to REPLACE the
LaRy system & our PE system which was ripped out like the KEYsystem was replaced by BART in the bay area of san francisco!
But we wanted a system that was not ENTIRELY UNDERGROUND which was totally insane not to mention all of the 3 rail lines
here only 2 are cross compatible & this is a big FLOP & how this entire system was not built to the needs we have here !
there is a lot more to this stuff for those of us who still depend on our automobiles & are STUCK with them ant the highest petrol
costs in the nation excluding hawaii !! the subway to nowhere is an handle it was tagged with a long time ago the RED line should
have been the same vehicles used in the green & blue line light rail type cars used in st louis san diego dallas tx. denver co. etc...
& not to mention the how & the where the lines should have been built even if the ridership is is high because of the high fuel costs here !
now i hope i cleared this up you would have to either visit a long time & or live here to know what we are talkin' bout here !! lol !!
>>> Saalam says the red line goes no where. Tell that to the 1.2 million people who live in the San Fernando Valley that they live no where <<<
Since the Red Line only goes to North Hollywood, it misses most of the people living in the San Fernando Valley. When It opened I likened it to the 7 line running from Times Square to Hunters Point and terminating there. Although it would go to Queens, it would be a subway to nowhere. The Red Line is like that.
Tom
"Since the Red Line only goes to North Hollywood, it misses most of the people living in the San Fernando Valley. When It opened I likened it to the 7 line running from Times Square to Hunters Point and terminating there. Although it would go to Queens, it would be a subway to nowhere. The Red Line is like that."
I agree with some of your dissatisfaction. But, it isn't as bad as you make it out to be. I would want more, to be sure. What it offers is a way to avoid traffic on the freeways into Hollywood and downtown. Prior to the subway, if you hopped on RTD's express buses from the Valley to downtown, you fought the same traffic on the roads. Now, the bus ride (or car ride) is shorter, and the train eliminates the chokepoint into downtown.
When visiting my family in Calif, I travel via Red Line from downtown to Wilshire/Western, then take the 320 limited service to Westwood. It's faster than using a bus the whole way.
>>> What [the Red Line] offers is a way to avoid traffic on the freeways into Hollywood and downtown. <<<
The scheduled time for the Freeway Flyer bus that the Red Line replaced was shorter from North Hollywood to downtown Los Angeles during rush hours. It is true that on bad days (an accident closing multiple lanes) it was subject to delay, which is less likely with the Red Line.
>>> I travel via Red Line from downtown to Wilshire/Western, then take the 320 limited service to Westwood. It's faster than using a bus the whole way. <<<
It might be faster during rush hour, but when I tried to make that transfer in the reverse direction after 7:00 P.M., the time to cross the street and go down into the station, and a fifteen minute wait on the platform for the next train completely negated the faster operating speed over the approximately five mile trip to downtown.
BTW, You really should have used the 720 Rapid Bus (stops a mile apart, and partial control of traffic signals) for your trip to Westwood. It would have saved some time.
Tom
"The scheduled time for the Freeway Flyer bus that the Red Line replaced was shorter from North Hollywood to downtown Los Angeles during rush hours. It is true that on bad days (an accident closing multiple lanes) it was subject to delay, which is less likely with the Red Line."
RTD (now MTA) does make an honest effort to keep their buses on schedule. But I never trust anything that has to fight traffic. The exception was the El Monte Busway - when buses were the only vehicles on it.
"BTW, You really should have used the 720 Rapid Bus (stops a mile apart, and partial control of traffic signals) for your trip to Westwood. It would have saved some time."
Thanks for the tip!
>>> Saalam says the red line goes no where. Tell that to the 1.2 million people who live in the San Fernando Valley that they live
no where <<< i would like to respond please again to this if i could !!
the red line should have been like its other sisters the green & blue line maybe run underground for a short while then run above
& along the freeways ( like #105 with the green line ) and all of the san fernando valley could have been served either at grade
some below grade & the rest above grade! but the crappy red line is a failure & thats what i was trying to point out !!
We protested this to a silent RTD/MTA borad who built a luxury TAJ MAHAL for themselves & the transit riding public be dammed !
they could care less about us & they still couldnbt give a damn thats why the green line REFUSES to go to the LAX airport !!
>>> they still couldnbt give a damn thats why the green line REFUSES to go to the LAX airport !! <<<
Actually the real reason the Green Line REFUSES to go to LAX is that there are no tracks going that way. It is really the same reason the 2nd Avenue Subway REFUSES to run. :-)
Tom
Heh heh. But there are plans to build a second ave subway. I have no idea, but are there funded plans to extend this "green line" to LAX?
>>> are there funded plans to extend this "green line" to LAX? <<<
No, and for a pretty good reason. The Green Line runs to Norwalk in the Southern part of Los Angeles County. It was built to bring workers from the working class bedroom communities to the aerospace jobs which were clustered South of LAX. With the "peace dividend" in 1988, the aerospace industry collapsed (or moved to Texas), and the jobs disappeared. The Green Line is lightly used and runs on 15 minute headways.
To use the Green Line to get to downtown L.A. requires a change to the Blue Line, (two elevators if you have baggage). The Blue Line goes to the commercial center of L.A., not where the hotels are. To get to hotels would require a change to the Red Line in downtown. There is now a very lightly used bus shuttle from LAX (it stops at all terminals and is similar to a parking lot shuttle) to the closest stop on the Green Line. Since the Green Line is not a good way to get to downtown, extending it to the airport does not make good economic sense.
For travelers coming to LAX on business, there are several areas with hotels. There are a lot of hotels near the airport, where many business men stay and travel around in rented cars. The next most popular place to stay is Century City which is not served by any rail lines. The entertainment crowd likes Beverly Hills and the Sunset Strip, neither of which are served by rail, or Universal City which is on the Red Line, but a long up hill schlepp from the station. These hotels have direct airport shuttles which are much faster and more popular than a three seat transit ride. Of the downtown hotels, only the Biltmore is directly on the Red Line, the others are all at least a two or three block walk from a subway station, and all have direct airport shuttles. The shuttles are faster at all times than going to downtown via the Green Line / Blue Line.
Tom
are there funded plans to extend this "green line" to LAX?
No, and for a pretty good reason. The Green Line runs to Norwalk in the Southern part of Los Angeles County. It was built to bring workers from the working class bedroom communities to the aerospace jobs which were clustered South of LAX. With the "peace dividend" in 1988, the aerospace industry collapsed (or moved to Texas), and the jobs disappeared. The Green Line is lightly used and runs on 15 minute headways.
But there's a massive amount of commercial development in the LAX area. Couldn't the Green Line be useful for serving workers at those places?
"But there's a massive amount of commercial development in the LAX area. Couldn't the Green Line be useful for serving workers at those places?"
LAX itself has a lot of employees, someof whom could use the Green Line.
But "Old Tom" is referring to this: When I worked in the aerospace industry in the 1980's, Hughes Aircraft Co. alone had 70,000 employees in El Segundo, right off LAX' southern runways. In fact, El Segundo had a night-time population of 13,000, which swelled to probably 150,000 every weekday morning. Hughes, TRW, Computer Sciences Corp, an Exxon refinery (or was it Arco?), the Aerospace Corp, Rockwell International - all these places filled with people (at Hughes, one in six employees had a master's degree or better). Then there were the airline workers and LA Dept. of Airport employees. Also, the Postal Service opened a new central processing office in nearby Inglewood.
Old Tom, how many people do you think are there now?
if only the green line whent into the LAX airport it would be the bomb !!
there is a partial uncompleted " break off " structure where they STARTED to build it to the airport ( like it should have been )
you can see it on the photos i took there on the green line light rail section ...................
> http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications <
my apology for not being able to link it directly but you will have to FISH though my old photos to see this SHORT break-away
structure was started with some jive anticipation of being completed to the LAX airport some day instead of some jive "G" bus!
damn it !!! .....lol!!
After looking at Salaam's pictures of the Green Line stub for airport tracks and viewing a half hour TV program about the Orange Empire Railroad Museum, I decided to take a mini railfan trip on the Green Line to see the stub yesterday evening. (When I last traveled the line I did not notice it.) Here are some observations:
I purchased a round trip ticket for $2.70 at the Norwalk terminal. Although the dollar bills I was using were fairly new and unmarked, I had to go to three ticket vending machines before I found one that would accept them. Once I got the ticket at 8:40 P.M. I started across the overpass to the elevator to the platform and saw a train pull in. (I use the term "train" loosely since it consisted of one 1995 Sumitomo 87' articulated Light Rail vehicle with 150 seats.) I was afraid of missing the train so I rushed to the elevator an pushed the button to summon the elevator before anyone on the platform could call it. I got down to the platform and there were two people there waiting for the elevator. The elevator is at the end of the platform with a staircase in front of it, and just a narrow area beside the staircase to get past it. I was stopped there because one of the passengers getting off the train was walking a bicycle to the elevator and there simply was not enough room to get around him so I had to wait till he got past the staircase.
I was afraid the train would pull out just as I got to the doors. Sure enough, just as I got to the rear most door, a buzzer sounded, ....and all the lights went off as I entered the door. I figured the train was going OOS and stepped back off to wait for the next one. One minute later the lights came back on and I entered and took a seat. I need not have rushed. We did not leave the station until 9:00 P.M., and had eight passengers.
You cannot do conventional railfanning at night on the Green Line. The windows are heavily tinted and the bright flourescent lights inside the train make hard to see anything outside except the lights on the cars on the freeway (the ROW is in a freeway median). I did observe that we came close to matching the speed of the cars which have a 65 mph speed limit, so I estimated our top speed at about 60 mph. (On other occasions I have paced Green Line trains from the freeway at 62 mph.).
Since there was not much to see outside I turned my attention to observing my fellow passengers. At each station approaching the transfer station to the Blue Line we picked up several passengers until there were about 60 passengers. At the Blue Line station, more than half of them got off and were replaced by an equal number getting on. The ethnic makeup of the passengers was overwhelmingly Latino and Black, with quite a few teenagers with backpacks, and what seemed like blue collar workers. After we passed the Blue Line we discharged more passengers at each stop than we picked up. When we got to Aviation, which is the LAX stop, at 9:29 P.M. only a few passengers remained. Five others got off with me (none with baggage) and rushed for the stairs at the front (Western end) of the station.
I went to the front of the station to check out the stub, which looks exactly like Salaam's photos, and clearly is there to allow a spur to LAX. I then went back to the center of the station to get the elevator to the ground (bad knees preclude stairs whenever possible.) Below the station is a bus loading area with about six bays including bus service to UCLA through Santa Monica. There also appeared to be a Park n' Ride lot which was full.
A Shuttle bus pulled into the bay at the Western End of the station. I went to look it over and talk with the driver. The bus is a 40' high floor bus with distinct (non MTA) shuttle livery and a double wide back door with luggage racks on the left side opposite the rear door. There was no fare box. It is listed as a free shuttle, but a sign outside the bus on the platform says you must have valid proof of arriving there by MTA public transportation to ride the shuttle. I can understand that since MTA Park n Ride lots are usually free, and it costs a bundle to park at the airport. This probably explained why this Park n Ride lot was jammed full at 9:30 P.M.
I spoke with the driver who was sitting there with a completely empty bus, and asked him if he usually had a lot of riders. He told me that the shuttles often carried many passengers, but most of them were workers at LAX. He rarely carried anyone with luggage. I decided not to ride with him to the airport since I am not that much into buses or busy airports. As another shuttle bus was pulling in, this driver closed his doors and left with the empty bus.
The arriving shuttle bus delivered twelve tired looking passengers, several with backpacks and small bags, but only one, a teenage boy, with a bag large enough and heavy enough to look like luggage. They were all Black and Latino, and none were wearing identifying uniforms. I assumed they were all workers from the airport with lower paying jobs that did not interact with the public.
I went back up to the platform, to catch the next Eastbound train. A 1998 P2000 Siemens car pulled in at 9:45 P.M. The major difference between this and the Sumitomo is aerodynamic styling, AC propulsion, large picture windows, automated station announcements, and a touch of padding on the passenger seats. On the Eastbound trip, about 70% of the seats filled up on the way to the Blue Line transfer station, and again, at least half the train emptied out there, and these riders were replaced by other riders. This trip there were less teenagers. None of the other riders looked like railfans taking the trip by choice.
The train had pretty much cleared out by the time we got to Lakewood, the station before the terminal, so I went up to look through the railfan window into the cab. It was clear, rather than smoked glass like the Sumitomo, so it was easy to see in. The slanted tinted windshield made it hard to see out forward in the dark. I did get a good look at the lighted display. Upon pulling out of the station, the speedometer went up to 57 mph with amazing speed. The T/O glanced around to see who was there when I went up to the railfan window, and I got the impression that he might have gone faster if I were not looking but I think the MTA has 55 mph speed limit, and he might have been afraid I was a beakie. There were four other digital readouts on the display, including one that seemed to be at 9999 most of the time. I did not watch long enough to determine what they were for. Maybe Salaam who has ridden in the cab can enlighten us. When we arrived back at Norwalk at 10:15 P.M., I intended to wait to see when the next train would arrive to check headways, but it was cold and I was hungry, so I did not wait. I believe the scheduled headway is 25-30 minutes.
Tom
Nice description.
The LAX bus terminal has been there for years. The shuttle bus from the terminals serves it; so do buses from Santa Monica, Culver City (both ending up at UCLA), MTA and at least one other municipal carrier.
When I worked at Hughes I took the 560 from Westwood to LAX, and transferred to the 232 headed for Long Beach, getting off a short distance down Sepulveda. The LAX Bus Center is a good place to get a transfer to go places in the south bay, El Segundo, Inglewood etc. The addition of the shuttle to the Green Line is a welcome addition, though only a half-measure.
Some of the credit for no service to LAX belongs to Maxine Waters, who has decided to play Ultimate NIMBY with the airport. Rail access, terminals, whatever - anything that even remotely smacks of making LAX easier to use, she tries to stop.
To be fair, I don't believe the Dept. of Airports has made the kind of community efforts in South-Central that the Port Authority has done with Jamaica, NYC. Waters portrays the airport as a place where rich whites fly and dump on the poor blacks living under the runway approaches.
to the 2 posts before this one it proves my point well
unless you smuggle a videocamera inside the green line japanese built light rail car & especially at night YOU SEE NOTHING !!
the so called Airport station is too far away fro LAX ( the los angeles airport ) then you have to catch the G bus which is as
SLOW AS HELL !! the rest ofd the posts tell my story well NO GREEN LINE TO THE AIRPORT !!! lol !!!!
Some of the credit for no service to LAX belongs to Maxine Waters, who has decided to play Ultimate NIMBY with the airport. Rail
access, terminals, whatever - anything that even remotely smacks of making LAX easier to use, she tries to stop.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????..........................!!!
what in the hell does the "" HONORABLE MAXINE WATERS "" have to do your post ?? Also would you please PROVE
you totally untrue and irrelevant statements about her?? & the absolutely no proff whatsoever you have about her ??
A lot of idiots who steered the los angeles RTD / MTA off of what it was supposed to be etc ........... not MAXINE!!!!!!!!!!
please submit you proff & or forever remain silent about her honor !!!!
I guess you like Maxine Waters, don't you? :-)
I think her record, overall, is mixed. She doesn't like economic expansion at LAX. She came out on record against terminal and roadway improvements at the airport and rail access to the airport. The direct rationale is quite spurious. But, underlying it, may be the poor relationship LA Dept of Airports has with surrounding communities.
Why? At the airport and in El Segundo, there is a fairly high concentration of trained professionals making good salaries. Just a couple of miles away you start seeing large swaths of poverty. Maybe Waters' attitude is "What have you donefor my constituents lately?" It's still, overall, foolish because LAX is a source of employment and should be more fully developed, and rail access is important to helping provide non-polluting options to travel there. LAX isn't going away.
Instead of playing NIMBY, which gives Waters a black eye with the business community, why not try to work cooperatively with the airport to bring in more business and help get rail access in return for concessions?
I think her record, overall, is mixed. She doesn't like economic expansion at LAX. She came out on record against terminal and roadway improvements at the airport and rail access to the airport. The direct rationale is quite spurious. But, underlying it, may be the poor relationship LA Dept of Airports has with surrounding communities.
Why? At the airport and in El Segundo, there is a fairly high concentration of trained professionals making good salaries. Just a couple of miles away you start seeing large swaths of poverty. Maybe Waters' attitude is "What have you donefor my constituents lately?" It's still, overall, foolish because LAX is a source of employment and should be more fully developed, and rail access is important to helping provide non-polluting options to travel there. LAX isn't going away.
What Maxine doesn't realize is that airports and their associated businesses provide large numbers of jobs for people of all skill levels. Completing the Green Line to the airport would provide excellent rail access from South Central, Maxine's turf. That would greatly increase job opportunities for her constituents.
At least there's something to be thankful for - idiotic politicians are not solely a New York phenomenon.
I'll have to agree with you 100% there, Peter.
>>> But there's a massive amount of commercial development in the LAX area. Couldn't the Green Line be useful for serving workers at those places? <<<
As noted in the parallel posting by Ron, the good paying manufacturing jobs have disappeared from the LAX airport. There are still many service jobs, but they tend to have lower paid workers from a diverse area, and all the commercial buildings have free parking for their employees. The area served by the Eastern end of the Green Line is predominately single family homes owned by skilled blue collar workers. Sure some of the workers in the LAX area use the Green Line, but when an area loses over 100,000 jobs, there is sure to be a reduction in the number of people going there. The old aerospace plants sit there abandoned with acres of empty parking lots with weeds pushing through the pavement.
Tom
I don't know much about Los Angeles, but this thread has made me curious. If the red line goes to Nowhere, and the green line is going to a place which is fast becoming Nowhere, where is somewhere? That is, where are the places in LA that would be well served by rail? Also, what kind of rail, light or heavy metro, would be best along which corridors?
Mark
There are some dense (by LA standards, not New York standards) corridors: Wilshire Blvd or Santa Monica Blvd. between downtown and the beach (the area around downtown could benefit from a circular line); South Central LA corridors where people lack cars and buses are quite crowded; the corridor between the Valley and downtown (served incompletely by the Red Line, which really should extend, perhaps with a branch or two, into the Valley), and downtown and east LA.
Also, the north-south corridor (SD Freeway) is fairly heavily travelled, more so when aerospace had all those workers in El Segundo.
"The old aerospace plants sit there abandoned with acres of empty parking lots with weeds pushing through the pavement."
Sad. Among the achievements I got to see in those plants (and Hughes still does some work in that complex, of course - commercial satellite production goes on...) was the GOES satellite which maps the weather; Galileo's Jupiter atmospheric probe, which helped rewrite astronomy textbooks, and Magellan's radar, which, through synthetic aperture mapping, produced extraordinary topological maps of Venus right through the clouds.
or as Salaam will tell you anyone taking pictures
without a permit whom they will beat mercilessly :-)). ???????...........................!
its the los angeles county sherriffs you have to wory about they behave like some gestapos type of cult !! lol !!
yep & you can show them a fake & get away with it !!
>>> The red line "SUBWAY TO NOWHERE" should have never been built ever ! However a light rail system compatible with the blue & green lines should have been used instead of an entire underground infastructure which would have been great & would have served the los angeles county riding public much better ! <<<
Isn't 20/20 hindsight wonderful?!! When it was planned, the Red Line definitely needed a full heavy rail subway rather than light rail. The original route to the West Side down Wilshire Boulevard and the route to the Valley and through the Valley under Ventura Boulevard could not have been adequately served by light rail, nor would running it on the surface be reasonable. As it is the Blue Line, which was built on existing ROW is overcrowded. The traffic could support a heavy rail subway, but it was built as light rail to take advantage of the existing ROW and the ability to run on the streets at each end.
Only the Green Line is correctly sized as light rail, and because of the loss of the aerospace industry, it is underutilized.
Tom
Isn't 20/20 hindsight wonderful?! HELL NO! John Stossel is a COMPLETE NUT AND IDIOT not to mention all of the other
INSANE things he has done ( & he does not even have a clue about the life os the average american worker ) his extreme right
wing facist views his " hitler " appearence & hateful piss poor attitudes toward the less fortunate & disabled & needy .....
His totally not geting it on the enviroment & all out assults & insults on those who are just trying to make it SURVIVE day by day
His lies about how there are all of these affordable wages paying employment for everyone then goes to only ONE CITY !!etc...
I mean this dude & NUT john stossel leaves a lot to be desired here !!, hell he does not ride the subway/bus- to abc tv !!
He is a limosine riding ( does not use public transit ) right wing facist extremist nut who doesnt have a clue about the rest of us !!!!!!!
Old Tom if i am going to trust 20 / 20 abc then he has to go join pat roberson or the oral roberts or some HOLE to crawl into !!
Hell !~ he did not even deal with the blue & green line here which is a success here & especially the blue line to long beach ca.!!
The green line failed because after the AIRPORT station it refused to go to the LAX airport !!! lol !!!
>>> The red line "SUBWAY TO NOWHERE" should have never been built ever ! However a light rail system compatible with the
blue & green lines should have been used instead of an entire underground infastructure which would have been great & would
have served the los angeles county riding public much better ! <<<
Isn't 20/20 hindsight wonderful?!! HELL NO ! it is not !! & especially with john stossel should be standing in a unemployment line !! lol !!
the construction it to make the blue line stations wider to accomodate 3 car trains for the long beach blue line here !!
thats why the new reconstruction is going on !!
Do you have any one experience which you remember like you do a big moment in history? Like, for older generations, when D-Day occurred, or JFK was shot? You know, something unexpected where you remember where you were, what you were doing, when "IT" happened?
For me, it was February 1957. I was on an R16 on a Jamaica Express for what I thought would be my first ride to Jamaica when I spied a BU on the Myrtle L. Forgot all about the ride to Jamaica.
Honorable mention. My first Lo-V on the Manhattan-bound local track at Franklin Ave. The sight and sound scared me half to death--I thought I was being attacked by a bug-eyed monster!
What's yours?
I was born in 1968, and have lived in NYC, and rode the subway, almost all my life.
But I'd have to say my two most memorable experiences didn't occur until 1999. In 2 separate occaisions about 2 weeks apart in June of that year, I rode the J the whole length, from Broad to Jamaica Centet, and saw the Bway-East NY interchange for the first time, and about 2 weeks later, rode the A (an R38), and saw the Rockaway Line, not for my first time ever, but certainly my first time through the RF window.
Maybe it doesn't compare to folks who remember BUs, Triplexes, and Lo-Vs in action, rather than musumes. and maybe doesn't seem much to people who nowadays ride the Eastern and Rockaway Divisions every day, but I'll sure remember 'em.
I've never rode on the south side of the Manhattan Bridge. I'm sorry that I'll be out of town for several weeks, but when I get back, you can be sure I'll be on an R32 or R40, at the RF window. In the meanwhile, I'm sure there'll be a lot of postings here to keep me up to date.
It would have to be Sept 7th, 1957! It was a Saturday, and I had worked my last day at the bank the day before in preparation for moving out of New York, and starting a whole new life in Pa. I took the "15" to Myrtle Ave, went upstairs, and started what was to be my last ride on open platform gate cars. I got a three car train to Bridge-Jay, and then rode it back to Metropolitan. I left the station, and walked across the street to the cemetary. I did this mainly because the train I was on had the most unsocialable gatemen that I had ever run across, and I was hoping that the next train's crew would be friendlier. I did get the next train, and befriended a more talkative gateman, who made the trip to Bridge-Jay, and the return as far as Myrtle a more pleasant experience.
I made two round trips that day, and suspected that it would be my last ride on gate cars in revenue service, but I did not know for sure. I was already a little homesick for the transit system and city where I had spent the first twenty plus years of my life, and I hadn't even left yet. I rode on an open platform between cars (my favorite place to ride), and had a great time. I left NY the following Monday, and never got to ride the "Myrt" again.
An interesting note from this trip was that we changed motormen at Bridge-Jay that day, while the gatemen stayed the same. I had always thought that all crew changes were at Metropolitan. On my last trip I learned something new.
It was 1962 and I was a 6th grader at PS 217 in Brooklyn. Our class had a planned trip to the New York Botanical Gardens, and there wasn't an adult, teacher or chaperone, that had any clue on how to get there. I was just beginning to learn the subways through maps, and had never rode on the IRT. I stepped up and volunteered to be the navigator.
On the big day, I lead a parade of 6th graders and parents to Newkirk Plaza. I marched everyone to where the front car of the Brighton Express would stop. I then informed the class we would be on for exactly 7 stops. I set up my "command post" at the railfan window. I was amazed that the adults had such blind faith in me, but I did exude a lot of confidence that day.
At 14 St, we got off. I read the signs and negotiated the free transfer to the IRT. Again, I paraded the class to where the front car would stop. An express pulled in marked (on its side) White Plains Road, so I instructed everyone to get on. I thought that train was older than dirt. Anyway, I announced that we would be on this train for 6 stops. The train zoomed into Grand Central; then, the express surprised me by going underneath the local; we passed by the 59 St station which was under construction at the time; and then, re-joined the local tracks for a station or two before 125 St.
We got off on 3rd Av and went upstairs to ride the vestige of the once great el to the Botanical Gardens station.
After our visit there, we explored Bronx Park and ended up near Allerton on the White Plains Road line. We caught a Lex and reversed the trip, arriving in Brooklyn safe and sound. I had a blast and was declared a "hero" by my teacher. All in all, a very good day.
By what act of treason was your class taken to the New York (Bronx) Botanical Gardens from Newkirk Plaza rather than the Brooklyn (Flatbush) Botanic Garden?
Permit me to speak as a non-New Yorker. I have visited both the Brooklyn garden and the Bronx garden, and the Bronx facility is far superior, admitting it has a more generous space for its exhibits. A special pleasure of visiting the Brooklyn garden was discovering a subway line though the shrubbery in a far corner of the park.
That wasn't an act of treason - it was an act of reason!
I remember when I was at Brooklyn Bridge and I wanted to take the 4 to Brooklyn,but my grandmother said no,when we arrived in Brooklyn the News was on saying that the 6 train crashed in the Brooklyn bridge statiom
Clairvoyence at its best!
$100 in Monopoly money says your grandmother knew something bad was going to happen!
It was a bitter cold winter night in January of 1948. Roger Egan and I were in the habit of taking local Third Avenue El trains from Fordham Road to City Hall and waiting for the first northbound gated Through Express. We were wearing our Mackinaws, knickers, and knee socks - warm enough, but we had only one pair of mittens between us. One had to hold on to the iron on the gated cars - they did rock! On this bitter cold night only the gateman rode outside with us on that long, delightful ride up Manhattan's spine and through the heart of the Bronx. Roger and I exchanged the mittens periodically so that the other hand could use the glove and you could switch a hand into the warm long pocket of your Mackinaw. When we were riding between the fourth and third cars that evening, and when we got to the upper level station between the buildings on the private-right-way down in Mott Haven, the train stopped but no one got on or off. We shall never forget the sounds of those two bells coming along from car to car from the south end, ringing over our heads, our gatemen's brisk tugs on the bell cord to the next car and right up to the Conductor (between cars 1&2). It was perfect stereo, but stereo had not yet been invented! The Conductor did not break the rhythm of the bell rings, and signalled the motorman with two rigns, and off we lurched, those gutteral motor cars making their first forward thrust in series, taking a breath, and then hitting parallel as the wheels clacked with military precision on the El's peculiarly staggered rail joints. We were only feet from the building bricks, and the entire sound experience was glorious - still not forgotten by either of us to this day.
That's a GREAT story. You sure can't do that on today's hermetically sealed horizontal elevayors!
I'd find it hard to pick one individual favorite scene of my years on the rails: choose from the days when the original IRT fleet was in full strength and the ONLY trains on all but Flushing; discovering open platform BU gate cars on Myrtle still in daily service, a ride behind a Pennsy K4 steamer, Chicago el, North Shore; ....the ideas are endless.
But I'd have to share your Third Ave el as number one. My first and VERY regrettably only trip on it May 12, 1955. A week after my 12th birthday.As it wasn't convenient to where we lived we never rode it but Grandpa knew I was a train fan and offered the idea to ride it on the last day. I was happy as a lark with my old IRT and never even thought of the 3rd ave el but what an awakening. Those nostalgic, sad looking MUDC cars, ok until 149 st the ride not much different from let's say Jerome..but then the ride between buildings to 133rd, over the Harlem River and thru the city on an el, an experience I never had before and loved every minute of it. If only it ran to South Ferry besides...Chinatown was a rather incomplete ending.
All the way uptown...local-express by the way...I was wishing there"d be one more reprieve and I could experience this line for only another month..maybe 2 or 3 months. But it wasn't to be.From there I went to riding whatevr wood equipment I could find in the city, and studying the Manhattan el system back to the glory days of full operation.
I have always felt that the one ride I had on that line was like one date with a beautiful girl who moved away when you were both early teens and had no control over fates...you just knew you'd be happy with each other but you'd never meet again...but never forgot her.
Oh well, the MUDC's roll in my basement if nothing else. Hence the handle..the manl part doubles as Manhattan L spelled Chi style.
BTW my apologies for my absence..have to get exterior painting done on this house while weather permits and I'm one of those people who can't keep up with himself. Had a chance to say hi so here I am.
By rail through the Canadian Rockies. On a regular service passenger train, before they were terminated and replaced by a small number of luxo-cruises at quadruple the price.
Hard for the subway to compete with that view.
Thanks for sharing that. The Third Avenue El is a most pleasant and durable part of my life baggage.
The most memorable experience in my life was when I was riding a West End or Sea Beach train of BMT Standards on the Broadway subway. The year may have been 1963 or 64. I was 12 years old and riding the subways was my idea of touring the city on 15 cents.
I was in the front car of a train of Standards heading south on Broadway. What was unusual was the speed of the train. We were traveling slow. No big deal, maybe a speed restriction or something. After 14th St. Union Square we headed down the express track slower than before. We passed all the local stations even slower than the locals. Came into Canal St. opened and closed doors and we were on our way over the Manhattan Bridge. That's when things got hairy !
We crawled over the bridge and stopped about midway. Then all of a sudden we were slowly drifting backwards ! The Motorman charged out of the cab and started cranking the handbrake, which was located underneath the conductors buttonboard. Then I notice smoke rising up from underneath, but no flames.
The conductor made his way to the front car and began conversing with the motorman. Then the motorman disappeared a car or two back and the conductor headed to the front cab. After the train charged the handbrake was released and we were moving over the Manhattan Bridge but slow. The conductor was blowing the whistle in a code to signal the motorman a few cars back when to apply power and when to slow down.
This kept going on after we descended into the tunnel on the Brooklyn side and after the maze of switches we were then on the bypass track. After another maze of switches we were finally in Pacific St. After this very slow journey, we stopped. The conductor got out of the cab and returned to his position to open the doors. I guess this was a B-Type and not an A-Type because he had to go a few cars back to his position to open the doors.
This of course was a delay. The smoke was still rising up but there was no panic. Maybe because the smoke was not on the inside of the car. As doors opened I stood on the platform and watched because I was a young railfan and this really interested me. Since the Standards didn't have PAs I guess the conductor went to each car telling passengers that the train was out of service. The conductor of course closed the doors, went to the front car's cab and the train of Standards were pulling out of Pacific St and the last memory I had was seeing the front of the rear car disappearing into the dark tunnel, marker lights glowing red.
The story I just told was true, I remember it very vividly. Now some questions.
Was it a group switchbox fire or traction motor ? I remember the smoke in the center of the car.
When were two way radios introduced to the subway ? If radios were on board and command center was notfied, would the train be evacuated on the bridge or proceed to deKalb and evacuate ?
If this was by today's standards, how would this be handled ?
We all know what happened when you operate a train from another position a couple of cars back (Roosevelt Ave wreck). I was amazed that we didn't trip once from the bridge to Pacific St. Draw your own conclusions and theories to this. It really did happen and boy do remember this experience !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Now THAT was an interesting story. The only thing that I can think of that would cause that (and it's only a guess) is that the resistors underneath the train burned up because the train was only able to take one point of power.
If a train today were to experience problems such as that (around Union Square), it would be taken out of service and laid-up on the City Hall Yard lead.
If the rollback and smoke condition were to happen today, the train would stay put until supervision and Car Equipment personnel arrived, and it's possible that the Fire Department would be summoned.
The awkward operation that you had witnessed with the C/R up front is called "Other Than Head End Operation". Today, the C/R would only perform this function in the event that a TSS cannot reach the train. And that happens maybe 2% of the time. The persons utilizing O.T.H.E. on a road train, must have a positive means of communication before attempting to move the train, whether it be via radio (preferred), via buzzer or via PA. While moving, two buzzers or a conversation must be maintained in an even and consistent manner (usually every 2-3 seconds). In the event that communication stops, or becomes infrequent, the train stops. Also, the T/O must use the closest operating position towards the front of the train. The train if it has no passengers on board, is then placed on the closest siding available or any other track that takes the affected train off the mainline.
ZMAN,
Thanks for your input, I'd also like to hear from Train Dude about this.
Well that was 1963 or 64. A totally different NYCTA than today. I don't know when two way radios were first introduced. If the train was radio equipped, the motorman could have set the hand brake to stop the rollback and call command center for instructions. This was on the Manhattan Bridge, what do you do ? So I guess he started moving again to get to the next station.
The funny part was the DeKalb Ave bypass, if he radioed that he was in trouble, they could have switched him over. So we bypassed the nearest station for evacuation. But I do remember the conductor signaling with the whistle !
The equipment back then was way different than today. To be technical, it was a rehabbed BMT Standard with the plextone paint. The more I think about it, the more I remember that it was a deck roof car also.
At 12 years of age and by myself, I wasn't scared or panicy either. I was kind of excited by the whole thing.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have had two 'amazing' railfan experiences, both back in the 60s. With a friend who was a much more die-hard railfan than I, we broke the existing fastest-ride-through-the-whole-system record with a time of 22 hours and 39 minutes, on June 16 1967.
The second was with the same friend, around the same time. We snuck into Pitkin yard and moved (I think it was an R10) first from one end, then the other. How he obtained 'handles' is unknown. We of course were picked up by the TA police and brought to the yard tower, where my buddies friend worked. He got us of the hook. Very stupid, but quite cool. By the way, I do remember appling the brakes was VERY DIFFICULT to do right!
i was wondering, what's the modern record for subway on one token? me and two friends did it in 25 hours 46 minutes in december of '95, starting at pelham bay pk. at the beginning of AM rush and ending in rockaway park in the middle of the next day's AM rush. this was when the N didn't run through to Coney, which might have cost 45 minutes in backtracking. i've been thinking of doing it again, if i can plot a better route. the first ten hours were quite alot of fun, and then it just became a struggle to stay awake.
What rules did you use? Pass through each station, stop at each station, pass over every bit of route mileage, or pass over every bit of track mileage? Does everyone play by the same rules?
Way back in the 60's, there was an Amateur New York Subway Committee made up of TA officals (Geoffrey Arnold and Peter Samson in particular)which had several classes of rules. We did the class C category, which allowed express usage and only required travel in one direction on any particular route. Class C was the all out fastest ride. The other classes were more restrictive, and I don't know if anyone ever set a record in those classes. - RD
we took the easy way out, passed thru each station.
On a 2 train at a 7th Ave station, you would hear, "This a Brooklyn {or Bronx} bound number 2 express train" Is it always exp, for example, if it goes to Brooklyn or Bronx it is no longer exp but lcl so does the announcement change or is it always called an "express train"
Also, as I've only rode the train twice and that was both times between Wall St and Park Pl in Manhattan, does the announcement system pay any attention to lcl stops skipped when the train's running exp such as "The stop we are skipping is. . ." And how are transfers announced, does the system know what time it is so as not to announce the 3 at night, etc.
On the R110A, the automated conductor only said "express" when the train was between Chambers and 96th. Other times, it was just the "2 train".
good point i remember that
they probaly haven'programed it yet .maybe in trhe future they will have that
In the Bronx, the annoucement goes like this: "This is Wakefield bound 2 train. The next stop is....."
In Bklyn, the annoucements goes like this: "This is a Flatbush Avenue bound 2 train. The next stop is....."
Hope this helps.
3Train#1914Mike
youre right
Automated announcements only make announcements on where the train stops, for ex. on the R142 in the Bronx on the 2 line.
In your question, the 2 line will still preferably state "This is a #2 express train" even if it's technically local in the Bronx and Brooklyn. The reason why is because the #1/9 lines are considered to be the "7th Av. Local lines" because the IRT line set #1/2/3/9 are known as the "7th. Av Subway". (In modern time)
They wouldn't change the announcement for the 2 express because when that same R142 train runs during rush hours, it is express in all 3 boroughs. (Bronx in peak direction only)
It would greatly avoid additional unnecessary work for the conductors, to keep changing back and forth for announcements when they can simply stick to 7th Av. Express.
All 2 riders know by common sense where they are going on that train.
And when all of the R142's are going to be on the 2 line, late night announcements will possibly be turned off because the #2 line is local in all 3 boroughs during late nights.
Hope this helps.
= )
Railfan Pete.
Ay! But the tourists! Oh no!
There are separate programs for Day, Night, and weekend. The overnight program announces all the stops and the appropriate transfers. The strip map lights are still used, and they still change at the appropriate times.
During rush hours the program does not even have to be changed, the 9 and Z don't get announced until rush hour and the M is not announced south of Chambers until after 3:30 PM.
The 2 is local in Brooklyn and The Bronx ALL TIMES.
I was on a 142A running express on the local from Parkchester to Pelham Bay Park. The voice did announce every stop and the map did change even though we kept going.
one of the #6 operators slipped
Traditionally, whatever a train does in Manhattan determines its entire route.
Numbers were introduced by the Board of Transportation in 1948 but did not really become universal on IRT lines until about 1962. Even 83 years later, the 2 is still technically the "7th Avenue-Bronx Express" but it would be unreasonable to expect the public at-large to embrace such a cumbersome title.
Figure it this way, if the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs were still around we'd have to navigate among the following, variations aside:
7th Avenue-Broadway Local
7th Avenue-Bronx Express
7th Avenue-Lenox Express
Lexington-Jerome Express
Lexington-Dyre Ave. Express
Lexington-White Plains Rd. Thru Express
Lexington-Pelham Local
Lexington-Pelham Local-Express
Flushing Local
Flushing Express
Shuttle (Generic)
That's the way men in straw hats saw the IRT, so watch those markers!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr., Rockland, Mass.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What's the technical distinction between an express and a thru express, and why is the latter term used only on the 5?
A "Thru Express" is express on more than one route, specifically the Bronx AND Manhattan. This was an old Manhattan Elevated title (i.e. 3rd AVENUE THRU EXPRESS). It recognizes the 5 trains routing as an express on both the Lexington and West Farms portion of the route, regardless of the fact that it returns as a local.
Furthermore, in a touch of provinciality, the IRT never considered the Brooklyn portion a separate route, but rather an extension of its Manhattan mainlines. (Those OTHER guys [BRT] focused on Brooklyn). As such, the express or local routing from Nevins Street eastward was of no consequence in routing titles. And so it remains today.
Now on the BRT side, the present N route was known as the Sea Beach Express from the day it began on June 22, 1915 even though at the start there wasn't anything express about it. That referred to its operation on the 4th Avenue Subway (it did begin runing express when the "4th AVENUE LOCAL"--now the R--started service in 1916). The Manhattan portion tended to be spoken of incidentally. I think the Yankees and Mets rivalry of today has nothing on these two companies before World War I.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson. I thought it might have had something to do with a single long express run with no intervening stops (kind of like the new truncated D, off-peak, with 125th eliminated). Guess not.
So the A, former B, rush hour D, diamond Q, and weekday W are also through expresses.
I wonder why the term still survives on the single remaining IRT through express when none of the other lines use the term. Do you know if the R-142's will preserve it?
I would doubt it; things today are over-detailed and super-segmented to achieve absolute clarity, and likely no one would find such terminology useful.
Lingusitically, I note the R-142s are programmed to say "This is..." and "transfers available, to..." instead of the very traditional "59th Street, Change here for..." as most human Conductors bleat out over the PA. They are much more descriptive to specify the action each train is actually taking. Even on the same kind of cars elsewhere its the same. In Boston, Red Line riders hear the automate voice say "Entering...(Harvard)" while on the Market-Frankford the lady inside smoothly says "Now Arriving at...(46th Street)" Human Conductors would not as a rule be so precise.
More food for thought:
Before the R-142s "Wakefield" was a suburban stop on Metro-North. Before the R-142s there was formally no such thing as a "Brooklyn Local." Such things are evolutionary cultural changes that mark a city's being. What you're witnessing is the emergence of a new "Turn of the Century" era New York.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
You are good!
On the No.2 the computer will say Express between 135 Street to Wall Street. You will hear "This a Brooklyn bound 2 Express train".
Also on the No.6 in the Bronx the computer will say Express or local. On the Pelham Express it will say "This is a Pelham Bay Park bound 6 Express train" from 3Ave all the way to Pelham. A Parkchester train will say "This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train".
The 2 even declares itself (on the signs and in the announcements) as the 7th Avenue express in the middle of the night, when it doesn't bypass a single stop in its entire route.
"This is a Bronx-bound 2 express train. The next stop is Fiftieth Street. Stand clear of the closing doors, please." (No, that's a local stop.)
"This is a Bronx-bound 2 express train. The next stop is Fifty-Ninth Street, Columbus stand clear of the closing doors, please." (Whoops, the C/R didn't give the poor announcement a chance to finish.)
"This is a Bronx-bound 2 express train. The next stop is Sixty-Sixth Street, Lincoln stand clear of the closing doors, please." (Yeah, Abe, get out of the way!)
IRT Conductors operating R142 equipment have now been ordered to make "live" announcements at Times Square (2) and Canal Street (6) because the computerized announcements do not contain the new transfers to the W and twin Q services. The new transfers should be installed by November.
Changing the announcements shouldn't be a major ordeal. In fact, the T/O should be able to update the announcement (say, if there's a temporary service outage on a connecting line) for the next stop in about a minute. It certainly should take until November for such a major change to be made.
There are a few other affected stations: Atlantic (Q/W, no B/D), Fulton (midday M), 14th-7th (S), 59th-Lex (W), 14th-US (Q/W), and SB Bleecker (S/S, no B/D/Q). Also, the overnight 2 local announces the C at 59th even though the C doesn't run overnight. (It correctly omits the B.)
okay
In 1951 the subway fare was 10 cents. At that time the price of a new "Spaldeen" (Spalding Hi-Bouncer") was 15 cents.
Today the subway fare is $1.50, and the price of a new "Spaldeen"(now made in Mexico or Taiwan) is $2.98.
The subway fare has gone up 150% while the "Spaldeen" has gone up 200%.
It would seem as if the today's subway fare is a bargain by comparison!
Someone once said the Nathan's hot dog exactly traced the subway fare through 5c, 10c, 15c... I don't know if that's exactly true, but I remember in the years up to the Lindsay fare increases beginning in 1966 the hot dog was more...
So how much is a Nathan's frank now? And can you buy a FrankyCard for all the Nathan's hot dogs you want for $63 a month? Have to leave 12 minutes beteen each dog, though... :)
It has been so long since I have had a Nathan's hot dog that I can't even remember what they taste like.
Is there really such a thing as a "Frankycard", or are you just making a comparison?
Comparison. Otherwise I would own a frankycard.
Also keep in mind that the demand for spaldeens pretty much died out by around 1985. by then we were playing schoolyard stickball and "off the point" with tennis balls (you could throw curve balls with them easily). Fond memories though; of all the pickup baseball games (or some derivative) in courtyards and parking lots and chasing them down the street to catch up with them and keepp them from rolling down the sewer slots, that's where they made their money, 'cause we always lost 3 or 4 a day, but even in the early 80's they only cost about 35 cents
[Someone once said the Nathan's hot dog exactly traced the subway fare through 5c, 10c, 15c... I don't know if that's exactly true, but I remember in the years up to the Lindsay fare increases beginning in 1966 the hot dog was more....]
Actually, I've heard the "subway fare" comparison made with the price of a slice of pizza. Do you want pepperoni on your MetroCard?
Conversely, since the late 70's as the subway fare increased, the price of matchbox/hot wheels cars seems to have decreased significantly.
...the price of matchbox/hot wheels cars seems to have decreased significantly.
So has the quality. When I was purchasing Matchbox (late '50s/early '60s) they were 20˘ each at Wolf's Sporting Goods, came in nice cardboard boxes, and actually looked like real cars, not some crude hot-molded caricature of one. Some of them actually had interiors and "glass" in the windows too. I still have mine... over 100 of them... with a few being in pristine condition, including the boxes (most of the rest of them show signs of heavy handling, of course). They even had a couple of steam locomotives - the Duke of Connaught is one that I have, the other one is an American prototype - they're packed away at our North Carolina house so I can't check them easily.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like you're sitting on a gold mine with those. Given the descriptions i'm assuming you're a little older than me. My frame of reference of childhood matchbox car collecting is the late 70's and early 80's (and now again to a degree) I remember scraping together around 1.00-1.50 for one car (subway fare was still only .50)
I'm jealous of the collection you speak of though.
Let's just say that I'm older than many that post here, but younger than a bunch. My collection isn't terribly valuable financially, just sentimentally, and as I indicated most of the cars have had a lot of use. But they bring back lots of good memories.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In 1961 The subway was 15cents as was a slice of pizza. SUbway is now 1.50 and pizza costs $2.00 per slice.
Minimum wage wass $1.25 and now it is $5. something. To keep up with inflation which raised the subway ny a factor of 10X, the wage would have to be $12.50
Yup. And prices keep going up. Take the 'walkman" I have used for the past two years, the Aiwa HSTX-694. Years ago walkmans always had tone control. But now this was the only model. It retailed for about $49. Well after two years of great service it hasn't been working properly lately, so I had to get a new one. Only one problem, the model isn't made anymore. In fact the only models like it cost well over $100. But after looking in 10 electronic stores in Manhattan today I found it. The lowest price I could get was $69. Yup awhole $20 more than two years ago. Apparently when something is discontinued, it's price jumps.
Of course food costs much more. In fact most things in stores have seen much more of a price hike than the subway. Sadly, if the minimum wage can't keep up with the price increase of subway ride, just imagine how much harder it is for other stuff like food and housing.
Crony capitalism at it's best. :-(
“Yup. And prices keep going up. Take the ‘walkman’ I have used for the past two years, the Aiwa HSTX-694. Years ago walkmans always had tone control. But now this was the only model. It retailed for about $49. Well after two years of great service it hasn't been working properly lately, so I had to get a new one. Only one problem, the model isn’t made anymore. In fact the only models like it cost well over $100. But after looking in 10 electronic stores in Manhattan today I found it. The lowest price I could get was $69. Yup awhole $20 more than two years ago. Apparently when something is discontinued, it’s price jumps.
That surprises me. My experience of electronics over the last 10 years is that it’s all got consistently cheaper, more reliable, and the batteries last longer. Perhaps the only minor exception here is large screen (not projection) TVs, where the major cost now is the CRT tube and that has to do more with glass-blowing than electronics.
Perhaps you got a really great deal the first time around and just didn’t know it!
John
This is especially true for computers. % years a top of the line computer was 2500 to 3000 dollars (monitor and printer included). 2 Years ago it fell to around 2000 and this year its 1000 to 1500. Also look at RAM. You can get a 128 stick of PC133 for 25$ when about 6 months ago it was 70. Of course they are comming out with some new RAM models to gouge us again.
I'm just testing the waters here.
How many of you purchase new computers to replace your old one, and how often do you do this? I'm asking because I have a Dell that is driving me up the wall (about 4 more inches and I'll hit the ceiling).
Does anyone have some advice to spare? Thanx.
Howdy guy ... dunno how much help I'll be but I'll try to give it a go. Reason why I say this is we roll our own boxes - we go to those "computer fairs" and buy a motherboard, drives, parts, power supply and whip 'em together ourselves. Of course you have to buy a FRESH copy of Billyware though some of the boxes here also run on Linux.
A *lot* of people went out and bought a shiny new box because of the Y2K scare - fear that their machine would burn down the R9 cab and such. Generally unless there's a smoke failure, most people tend to stick with the same machine until it dies (aside from the Y2K burp which financial analysts never considered) or it just won't run their train sim and therefore they need the latest and greatest.
Life expectancy for many machines is 2-3 years though Bill Gates would prefer you buy a new one every 11-12 months and goes out of his way to ensure you will. 4 years is typically "redbird time" for most computers and they're all built shabbily enough that you should consider yourself VERY fortunate to actually get four years out of one before something in it dies.
That all said, what's wrong with your whitebird? If you'd rather patch it up than spend $400-$500 for a roll your own or better than a kilobuck for one pre-built, tell me where it hurts (contact me at support@nsclean.com - won't cost ya a cent since this is way off topic for subtalk) ... considering all the fun I've had over the past year and change reading your posts, would be happy to see if I can help out here. I'm headed out for the day but will try to catch up with ya tomorrow if you wanna write me by email - the addy up above is real.
A)how big is yer hard drive?
B)how much ram ya got?
C)what model dell is it?
Some can be upgraded, others it's best to just fetch a new one...
I have both Macs and PCs... or better I should say, two PCs, because the others have all died (and the three year old one is getting flaky again). On the other hand, the Macs are all still in good working order... I've simply bought bigger and better ones as I've needed them for more disk-intensive graphics applications. I'm posting this from a G3 350 that I've had for over two years; other than the addition of a 60 GB hard drive, it's in the same configuration as it was when I purchased it. I also have an iMac and two Performa 6200's; next purchase will be a Powerbook, probably after MacWorld Expo later this month (when the new upgrades are announced, the older models - plenty adequate for what we need in a notebook - will drop a few hundred dollars in price) and maybe an iBook for Jr. So there is a difference in build quality between Mac and everyone else, and plus you don't have to use a virus that masquerades as an operating system (how else do you explain the success of Selkirk's business, protecting folks from Billyware).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MAC vs PC wars! Makes a change from the Redbird/Rustbird debate! :-)
John
My old one was a 200 Mhz. It died on me. I had no choice but to get a new motherboard or system. I opted for the new system. I got a 733 Mhz. Get a Gateway or Dell again if you're getting a new one. Only them 2 offer 3 years parts and tech support as long as you own the system. The 200 Mhz started to show it's age anyway and was having trouble running newer stuff. If it's in the 200-300 Mhz era, I'd ditch it for a new one. That'd be 1997-1998. Technology moved too fast between those years. It toned down but they're releasing 1900 Mhz (1.9 Ghz) soon.
>>> This is especially true for computers. % years a top of the line computer was 2500 to 3000 dollars (monitor and printer included). <<<
That sounds awfully cheap Mike. My first 2 Mhz computer cost almost $7,000.00 once I upgraded the memory to 64 kilobytes and added a daisy wheel serial printer, and 8" floppy drives which could store 1.1 megabytes on each of two diskettes, plus a high speed serial 12 Kbit modem.
Tom
Um, The original IBM PC had a 4.7MHz 8088. It had 5Ľ" drive(s).
A 2Mhz PC: an Altair, Z80 box??!!
The prices quoted by Jersey Mike are about right, then being ~2 years ago.
If you sign up for long enough, there are still a couple of Internet services that will give you a free computer! (No I don’t know who they are: I have my @home service and won’t give it up!)
John
>>> Z80 box??!! <<<
My first computer was Z80 based Zenith. It came standard with 48 k of RAM (upgradable to 64 k) and one 5 1/4" 90 k floppy drive (with space to install one more) with a unique hard format. The machine had a proprietary operating system but could be run under CP/M. The keyboard and monitor were built into the same housing as the computer itself. It came with three manuals of documentation. Heathkit offered a build it yourself version.
Tom
Yep! Been there, done that! (Though I owned a PC made by Epson! Had an 80-line LCD display!)
Now if only other technology could have improved at the same rate…
(Old?!) John
Well... to compare compute power... I'm writing this on a G3 Mac, 350 mHz... this machine has about the same total computing power - and more storage - as the entire computer floor at the IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center did when I first went to work there in 1978.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh God! Not that! When I went to work for Nat West (the British Bank) in 1978, we had enough compute power to run two moonshots simultaneously. I thought that a 4MIPS 3033 with 16MB was a big machine!
I have all the compute power and most of the disk storage sitting on my lap!
John
PC software has suffered from Bloat. My first PC was an Atari 800XL with 64K (that's right!) of RAM of which 8 K was reserved for built in BASIC. I later upgraded to a 128K machine which used bank switching. I could run clones of Lotus, and Dbase. Now adays you require at least 128 MEG of RAM and hard drives more than 10-20 GIG.
My first PC also had four channel sound.(To the musicians on this board I could do a full four note chord or four part barbershop harmony.)I also had the equivalent of SVGA graphics with no video card.
I have received a correction to my post of this morning. I apparently left a 0 out of my percentages. The third sentence should have read...
The subway fare has gone up 1500% while the "Spaldeen" has gone up 2000%.
I'm sorry everyone, math apparently was never my strong subject!
What will happen to the Q when the 63 street connector opens.1 answer,3 rumors.Queens blvd.express local or none?
Heres the deal.The Q will obviously run on the Queens blvd line,but where and how it wil run.The only sure answer is that the last stop will be 179th street(which means the express tracks will be in use again).The F might stay local after 71 avenue and the Q and G runs express to the last stop(since the lay up has enough room for 3 lines or the Q will run local with the R(If you dont believe me then take the F,Q or R to 21 st and see the swich panel on the future northbound side).Untl then only the MTA knows
Where the hell are you getting this? I'm not going to bother telling you. Go search the board for this. It's been beaten to death too many times.
I think I know what Im talkig about.I don't care what these people are saying.
Then maybe you should burrow back into the whole from which you've climbed.
What the hell are yu talking about.Im not trying to figtwith you so enough with the insults
I thought you said you didn't care what people said?
It's too bad. He can learn a lot. At this point, I wouldn't want to be lost with him in the NYC subways. (Not that I would.)
> Then maybe you should burrow back into the whole from which you've climbed.
The whole what?
I didn't want to say this (I was hoping nobody would notice) but I used the wrong word.
Now all of you Franklyn people can beat me up.
The Q will move to Broadway and probably terminate at 57th Street - 7th Avenue.
The Q will not go to Queens at all, possibly never again. For the One Billionth time this is the plan:
F - Local 179th-71/Continental. Express 71/Continental-21st Queensbridge. Runs on 63st line to Rockefeller Center, then normal for the rest of its run.
V - Local 71/Continental to Queens Plaza. Follows the old F route to Rockefeller Ctr, runs local to 2nd Ave and terminates.
Thats incorrect.The Q will run to Queens.
It has been announced numerous times and written all over the papers that the F will run thru 63rd St and the V will take the F's place at 53 St. This will begin prompty this November. No Q. No Q at all.
Ive decided to withdrawl my Q analysis for personal reasons
The MTA has the option of running a future Broadway Service through the 63rd St Connector, in addition to the F train, should that become desirable. Until that happens, if it happens, the Q will be a Broadway express from Manhattan to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge.
Someone told me the tracks leading from the 63rd Tunnel actually goes to Second Avenue if built. Is that true or false?
N Broadway
True.
>>Someone told me the tracks leading from the 63rd Tunnel actually goes to Second Avenue if built. Is that true or false?<<
Ever seen those tracks behind the wall at Lex? and 63rd? They are meant to feed into the 2nd av line northbound. In the future, the 2nd av subway will be built from 125th to 63rd. (a sorry proposition). If that happened, the best plan would be to extend the Q from Broadway along 63rd st.
Additionally, when 2nd av is built southward, tracks coming from queens are supposed to have a feed into the south of 2nd av. This would create a one-seat ride for queens riders that work on the east side, and relieve the 6 train at 51st st.
Where did you hear that the Q will continue to run to Queens?
I was saying when the Manhatthan bridge construction is over.
Oh, you didn't mention that in your original post.
That is a correct assumption, then.
I don't see the Q along Queens Blvd. after the bridge construction is over.
The V is here to stay.
Maybe to Astoria, but that's about it.
The V can't get to Astoria. Only Broadway lines can get there.
I meant the Q, not V.
With the V, there is no room on Queens Blvd. for the Q.
The Q doesn't have to replace the V. The whole idea is to use both Bway and 6th Av. connections to 63rd St. Perhaps the Q could provide the Hillside exp. people want back, without robbing the local stations of their direct express service after 71st St. Especially if they go through with the exp. track peak direction reversal (everyone has forgotten about this long projected 2nd phase of 63rd St.)
Eric B said the most smartest resopnce Ive ever seen.Its so smart none of you or me thought of it.The Hillside Express.Instead of replacing the V or F,Have them run together.With the G,R and V providing local service,and the E,F and Q providing express service.I'm not taking credti for this because Eric B should(By the way,I am talking about after the Manhatthan bridge construction ts over iight).
>>The Hillside Express.Instead of replacing the V or F,Have them run together.With the G,R and V providing local service,and the E,F and Q providing express service.I'm not taking credti for this because Eric B should(By the way,I am talking about after the Manhatthan bridge construction ts over iight).<<
Alright. Here is the plan that people proposed for the Q:
Q 179th st queens to Brighton Beach Bklyn. via Hillside/Queens Blvd. express, 63rd tunnel, Broadway.
I have a big problem with what people have said. For one, in the above MrX2001 quote, he says: "With the G,R and V providing local service..." Uh, the G,R and V provide the local service at different times. MrX, perhaps you missed all those threads on the Queens Blvd. local. The G will not run with the R and V thanks to the delays caused at 71st Continental. Maybe on weekends and nights, but not during rush hour, which is obviously when the Q would be run to Queens.
Second, I'd like to know how everybody plans to put in 37-40tph on Queens Blvd express (F=15tph, E=12(15?)tph, Q=10tph)? There's going to be a lock-up at the point where the 63rd and Queens Plaza tracks merge. This will delay the E, which will in turn delay the V. I think Henry R32 said something about re-signalling the line. Yes, that could be done. But that doesn't take care of the switching problems that you will undeniably have at 71st Continental and 36th where the express tracks merge/split. This means the Q can't run express, and it can't run local. If they couldn't do it with the G, they can't do it with the Q.
Third, MrX swears this is true because he looked at a punch box. MrX, I have a plan. Go look at the DeKalb Punch boxes southbound and tell me what the last (albeit covered) choice is. Does that mean they're going to run that service?
Fourth, where in hell do you plan on getting enough car to extend the Q to 179th? at 6 minute headways? Already, the Queens Blvd. lines have over a thousand cars devoted to their service, and the R-143 order helped expand their service indirectly (G gives up it's R-46's. Takes N's R-68's. N will get replacement cars from L when R-143 is in full swing.) The R-160 order only expands service by 53 cars (again, I'm lost at how only 607 cars will be replaced when they're in married pairs). That's not enough to expand the Q. And why should Queens Blvd. get any more cars? I know that they have a lot of passengers, but this is ridiculous. Everytime we hear there's a chance to put more cars on that line, we try to squeeze them in. Enough! There are 15 other B division lines that need service expansion too!
Now then, I know it's hard, but try to think before you put a post on how the Q 'is going to Queens, fa sho'!'(for sure). MrX knows without a doubt that the Q is going to Queens. Even though there's not enough cars or room, the Q is definately going up to 179th because he saw a punch box!
Personally, I think that the Q will be the 2nd av line from 63rd to 125th. But Queens Blvd? If they can't pull off the G, they can't pull of the Q on a much more crowded line.
Queens Blvd. express tracks are now near full capacity, so adding another line is out of the question without cuts to E and F service. Since the Hillside Ave. express run is basically useless, it really doesn't need to be revived.
How is the Hillside tracks useless
It saves a lousy 2 to 3 minutes.
Exactly.
Just extend the V line to 179th Street during rush hours, while the R terminates at 71st Street like now. Then the F can runs express those hours.
N Bwy
But then people at 169th, Sutphin, Briarwood and 175th get a local ride the whole way. This is NOT a concession that should be made for the people at 179th or Parsons to save 2-3 minutes.
So they transfer accross the platform. People do that EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE SYSTEM so why not there?
Andrew
Why should they have to lose their seats so people at 179th save 3 minutes?
In this case, the desires of the people at 179th are outweighed by the desires of those at the local stations because of how NEGLIGIBLE the advantage would be.
My guess is that you're right, but do you have numbers to back up your assertions?
How many minutes would be gained for commuters from 179th if there were express service all the way? Multiply that by the number of passengers affected.
How many minutes would be lost for commuters from the bypassed stations if they had to take a local all the way? Multiply that by the number of passengers affected.
Compare.
How many minutes would be gained for commuters from 179th if there were express service all the way? Multiply that by the number of passengers affected.
How many minutes would be lost for commuters from the bypassed stations if they had to take a local all the way? Multiply that by the number of passengers affected.
This is a flawed method, as even a handful of commuters should not be inconvenienced for what is a negligible amount even for the majority of commuters.
It's not all about serving the majority. Our system is supposed to protect the minority from rule by an unreasonable majority.
By that reasoning, there should be no expresses. Every train should make every stop.
There should, perhaps, be a minimum service level, beyond which service should not be reduced. But there's nothing wrong with forcing a few people to ride a local (or change trains) if doing so would allow many more to save a few minutes.
By that reasoning, there should be no expresses. Every train should make every stop.
Untrue. There are longer expresses that save many minutes, otherwise nobody would care that they would lose their express service, would they? Outer ends of lines should have the locals terminate, with the expresses running local. This is done on the 6, the A at BOTH ENDS, the B/D and was done on the Brooklyn F.
But there's nothing wrong with forcing a few people to ride a local (or change trains) if doing so would allow many more to save a few minutes.
Again, the amount of time lost for those bypassed riders is worth more than the time gained by those who have express service. The time advantage is negligible. This also costs money for the TA, they'd have to run more trains, at cost, to provide a 2 minute advantage for selfish and PETTY riders at 179th Street. If 179th Street wants that express service, charge a premium fare.
Funny, I use the same arguments to justify shortening the G to Court Sq. 24/7, but I have to endure the endless whining about the TA not adressing the rider's wants and needs. Now many of these same people are telling Hillside Ave. local riders to grin and bear it.
There is no legitimate reason to open the espress tracks past the junction at Van Wyck Blvd, especially when the car fleet is already stretched too thin. Unlike the cutback of the G, this plan was tried before.....and failed miserably. Why repeat a clearly documented mistake.
Saw my first Acala today in Baltimore Penn Station, quite impressive, also rode their heavy and light rail. Light rail is slower then the Market Streeet Trolley in SF. What was strange about the Penn Station Baltimore, is that the Northbound Trains, seem to be going South and visa versa, Checked a map, because the LRT comes into the station from the North. Am I wrong about this
The Hillside Express skips four stops---the same number of stops the W will be skipping on Broadway. How is that useless?
Andrew
I mentioned the reversing of the one express track peak direction. If the current service turns out not to be sufficient, that was the next step, and then perhaps another sevice would fit.
Just thinking about it, the Q sounds like a better idea than the V. Especially since it goes out their now. Plus, since it will be going over the Manhattan Bridge, it will be more convient to send it to 179th Street.
N Broadway Line
Two reasons have been given here for why the Q isn't running to Queens via 63rd.
First, that would leave 57/6 without service. (No big deal, IMO, but others disagree.)
Second, what we're calling the Q is actually two distinct services, the local and the express. There's no need for that much service via 63rd, and the Queens Boulevard line couldn't support it. Turning one of the Q's at 57/7 while sending the other through would be messy.
We're talking about after the flop back, so it would only be one Q.
Now, here is what I feel the most likely service plan would be (weekdays) using the MTA's current "keep it simple" mentality:
F - 179 to Coney Island via Hillside Local, 53st, 6th ave local, Culver Express to Church.
E - Jamaica Center to World Trade Center via Queens Express and 8th ave local.
V - 71/Continental to Church Ave via Queens Blvd Local, 63st, 6th ave local, Culver Local.
G - Court Square to Church Ave, local all the way.
Q* - 179st to Brighton Beach via Hillside Express, 63st, Broadway Express, Bridge, Brighton Express.
R - current
Weekends:
F - 179 to Coney Island via Hillside Local, 63st, 6th ave local, Culver Local.
E - Jamaica Center to World Trade Center via Queens Express and 8th ave local.
G - 71/Continental to Smith-9th, local all the way.
R - current
Glossary of terms:
Hillside express - express 179st to Queens Plaza / Queensbridge.
Queens express - express Jamaica Van Wyck to Queens Plaza / Queensbridge.
Queens blvd express - express 71/Continental to Queens Plaza / Queensbridge
* = This is provided that the Queens Blvd line is resignalled by then to handle a third express train. Also, the F does not get Hillside express because it is better to have a part-time route be the express rather than the local. This way, Q is always express and F is always local, no thinking required by subway patrons.
I assumed that he meant after the Manhattan Bridge construction was over. It is probably a correct supposition. Although personally I would rather have the F run Express after 71 Avenue onto 179 St.
In the immediate future, it'll just end at 57th St. In the farther off future, if the 2nd Ave line is completed, no doubt the (Q) will continue to the northern part of it. That's where its mainline tracks would lead now, to the stubs that will (hopefully) become the link to 2nd Ave.
:-) Andrew
Or perhaps the N will go up 2nd Av. and the Q to Astoria.
Oh that would be cool
Nooooooooooo!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I can't believe this post would get 45 responses.
What will happen to the Q when the 63 street connector opens.1 answer,3 rumors.Queens blvd.express local or none?
Heres the deal.The Q will obviously run on the Queens blvd line,but where and how it wil run.The only sure answer is that the last stop will be 179th street(which means the express tracks will be in use again).The F might stay local after 71 avenue and the Q and G runs express to the last stop(since the lay up has enough room for 3 lines or the Q will run local with the R(If you dont believe me then take the F,Q or R to 21 st and see the swich panel on the future northbound side).Untl then only the MTA knows.
is their any reason why there are r62s on the #5
The 5 uses uses a few 5 car sets for the late night shuttle. They are borrow from Westchester Yard for it. Sometimes they don't get returned.
its true
I know in the past they occasionally ran Bombardier R62A’s on the 5 line in the last few years . . . but Kawasaki R62’s which are chiefly on the 4? Sounds to me like it has to do with the gradual scrapping of the ol’ reliable Redbirds, but then again. . . .
I think he meant R62As as they are common. But he wasn't here to read messages about that. r142man, what colors were the stickers under the number plates? Orange would be from Jerome indicating an R62. Yellow would be from Westchester denoting an R62A.
There are about three sets of R62A's on the 5. Two from Westchester and one from 240St. The ones from Westchester Yard are used for OPTO. These cars goes back and forth from Westchester to Unionport Yard about every other day.
ive seen both
your right
The Straphangers Campaign stated that the G has the "highest breakdown rate of all lines" and that the D "breaks down much less often than average". These assertions are based on the MTA's MDBF figures. The values are: 244684 for the D and 65477 for the G. In point of fact this statisic is being misapplied and the relative performance between these two lines is roughly comparable.
The metric that is most important from a rider's perspective is the probability that any given train will complete its run without a breakdown. The MDBF does not yield this information. The number of breakdowns divided by the number of scheduled trains does.
Suppose two routes had the same breakdown frequency, had the same number of scheduled runs over the same distance but one ran consists of 8-cars whereas the other ran consists of 4-cars. The route with 8-car trains would have twice the MDBF as the 4-car route with the same breakdown frequency. The actual route comparison involves different service levels and route distances as well as different train lengths.
I have tried to compare the worst to the 2nd best with taking all factors into account. Such an analysis requires the following information: the number of breakdowns and the number of trains scheduled. I've used the MTA's published schedules and my own measured route distances in addition to the published MDBF figures to derive the required information. I've been hapered by the fact that the MTA does not make precise schedule information public. I've done the best that I can under these circumstances.
According to the published schedules the G runs as follows:
Sat: 235 trains between Court Sq and Smith-9th Sts (7.31 route miles)
Sun: 216 trains between Court Sq and Smith-9th Sts (7.31 route miles)
Weekdays: 64 trains between Court Sq and Smith-9th Sts (7.31 route miles)
Weekdays: 181 trains between 71st Ave and Smith-9th Sts (14.09 route miles)
On a weekly basis this yields: 1676 trains/wk and 99,053 car-miles/week assuming that the Court Sq runs are 4 cars and the 71st Ave runs are 6 cars long.
This also means that there are 1.513 breakdowns/week and 0.000903 breakdowns/train.
The figures for the D are easier to analyze because all car lengths are the same and all runs were assumed to go from 205th to Stillwell. The schedule did note that some D's terminate at Bedford Park but did not elaborate. The assumed route-miles for this run was: 27.6 miles.
I interpreted the MTA's schedule to indicate the following:
Sat: 175 runs; Sun: 236 runs; Weekdays: 268 runs.
These figures yielded:
1851 trains/wk
51087.6 train-miles/wk
408700.8 car-miles/wk
1.67 breakdowns/wk
0.000902 breakdowns/train
In other words, the BREAKDOWN FREQUENCY is IDENTICAL: 0.000902 vs 0.000903.
Put another way a rider on either line would be on a train that suffered a breakdown one time in every 1111 rides. Based on 500 rides/year this yields once every 2.22 years.
You should send this to them. They're complete idiots.
They're complete idiots.
Who is they?
Straphangers Campaign. They've done nothing but to make the system look bad. They keep wanting more. More till there are trains back to back moving at the speed of light.
And what's so wrong about trains running at the speed of light?
I'd settle for the speed of cattle!
They've done nothing but to make the system look bad.
Or have they documented that it really is bad.
They keep wanting more.
What's the New York State motto?
"They've done nothing but to make the system look bad. They keep wanting more."
As one who's feet are often held to the fire because of groups like this, I once agreed with you. Several years ago, I adopted a different philosophy - thinking of the group as a great useful tool. Something to use and make my job easier.
Every couple of days, I'll get an E-mail asking for info or an opinion. The messages sometimes include a: "By the way, car #2XXX is a hot car." or "Car #2XXX is making a funny noise." If someone takes the time to E-mail me about a car, I'll either spot the car on the line and have it checked for the reported defect or in some cases, I'll simply order it off the road. Similarly, while the straphanger's campaign survey may or may not be significantly accurate, I do listen to what they have to say. I do this for two reasons. First, because while the ratings may not be accurate, the data it's based on, often is. Second, I listen because my bosses often do also.
Getting back to your original post, I take some issue with your remarks. There are some self-appointed, self-important individuals who once had lionel trains at X-mas. They think that based on their vast experience in 0-27, they are now qualified criticize that which they really do not understand. (Such is the little moron with the red beard who rides the Ronkonkoma line and terrorizes crews with the implied threat of the poison pen) The Straphanger's Campaign has gained some legitimacy over the years, however. They have internal power struggles, explaining the new (lesser) position for Mr. Russinoff - yet despite the internal chaos, they have the ear of the media, the mayor, the governor and the MTA. Idiots don't often get that.
Thank you for a reasonable post on this subject.
People who take the time to "do the homework," and offer constructive criticism regarding the subways have something to offer, and MTA can be receptive to it. The Straphangers Campaign is no exception. Yes, they can be very critical and sarcastic, but they also offer credit where credit is due (although not often enough, in my opinion). And govt. agencies do need watchdogs.
By the way, I had the impression that Gene's position was enhanced when Joe Rappoport left the Campaign. You indicate the opposite. Explanation?
The next time I spot a non-trivial problem with a New York subway car, I'll know to whom to send a message. :0)
Keep up the good work. Some of us do appreciate what you accomplish.
The C:Anyone who has to take the C in Brooklyn I am awfully sorry for you.The C comes every 30 minuites(aproximatly)and it's always full(exept at Euclid,168th and Pitkin yard).The A is always full,but comes every 10-15 minuites.At 50h stret Everyone takes the E to 7th Avenue and transfer to the B,D or stayon the A.The C is basically useless and Makes the tracks it runs on useless.The C is a discrase to the subway(besides the 4.No offense but getting a seat on the 4 is like asking a hot girl to fuck you and her saying yes besides that its iight).I think its best if the C terminates at 145 and have the b run in 2 sctions,W 4th and 168 and W 4th and Bedford
The E:The E is always packed,but it makes comlete use of its tracks.If I was to decide the E would be the best subway line this year.Trains come every 5-10 minuites and is the quickest way into Manhatthan from Queens.
Excuse me but you should not be posting this information. After carefully reading the information you have posted and evaluating it for content and accuracy, I can only say tis about it:
IT'S CRAP - CAH-CAH - WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET THIS GARBAGE ?????It was not my intention to insult you or hurt your feelings.
Steve
I know some of my info may be off(since I havent took the C in 3 years),but I know what I am talking about.I'm not trying to insult yu but:
WHERE HE HELL YOU GET YOUR CRAP
No offence to you,but I know I may have not tooken the C in 3 years,but the sraphanger camaign said it for me.The C sucks
I've taken the liberty of correcting some of the grammar from your posting. I hope you don't mind. I'd still like to know what school you go to because the administration should be in jail for criminal impersonation. As for where I get my information about the subways, I read a lot, especially here on subtalk.
I know some of my info may be off(since I havent took taken the C in 3 years),but I know what I am talking about.I'm not trying to insult yu you but:
WHERE HE THE HELL DO YOU GET YOUR CRAP FROM?
No offence offense to you, but I know I may have not tooken taken the C in 3 years, but the sraphanger camaign Straphanger Campaign said it for me. The C sucks.
Just to tell you, I went to the High school of Economics and Finance.Besides that thank you(and yes my school administrator was arrested for drug use).
Where is High school of Economics and Finance?
Trinity Pl. near the Rector St. N/R station. It's stuck up on the upper floors of a major financial firm.
OK, If I were you, I'd sue the city. I'd be happy to testify on your behalf.
Not necessary. His earlier post is overwhelming evidence by itself.
Are you a teacher, Train Dude, because you sound like one? But if this is an attempt to disqualify a person's opinion you disagree with, please save it for kindergarden classes.
No offense!!!
N Bwy
"But if this is an attempt to disqualify a person's opinion you disagree with, please save it for kindergarden classes."
I think that before you make such an allegation, you should go back and follow the thread from which we've come. For the record, I ignored the spate of grammatical errors in the original posting. I read it strictly based on content. The information cited was pure garbage and I stated so. I also asked where he had gone to school because in a previous posting in another thread, he spelled the word crowd, "croud". (He also made reference to riding to school every day) The reply by the original poster was nothing short of an assault on the English language and I made comment about it. I had disqualified his opinions in my previous post of the same thread and did not, in any way, use his grammar & spelling (or lack of it) to diminish the value of his post.
I don't think that we're here to pick on minor spelling and grammar gaffs. Most times most people let them slide but in this post and in a previous exchange with another sub-talker, the spelling and grammar went well beyond the excusable. Now as to your other point, as a matter of fact, I was a school teacher - many years ago.
School's out my friend
Dangerous ground, dude; especially when one could go over some of your posts and cite similar errors.
-Hank, the spelling-and-grammar flame king. :)
I'm quite sure that I occasionally make a grammar or spelling error. I can't think of too many here who don't from time to time. However, this went beyond a simple grammar error or a spelling error. It was a slaughter of the English language. Now. if you want to go back in time and pick out all of my spelling errors, have at me. On the other hand, do you want to be known as the champion of the illiterate?
>>>>>>It was a slaughter of the English language.
I am absolutely 100% behind you on this one TD, but you also have to feel bad this particular post came into existence in the first place. The Board of Ed let another one slip through the cracks.
Hey guys, I;m glad to be back on today. I'm really holding my sides with these exchanges I'm reading.
You should see some of the posts on BusTalk.
-Hank
I have never downloaded bus talk if you can believe that. But if it means getting a few laughs along the way Big Hank, then, why not. I'll give it a try. Why is it that there is such flamage on that site anyway?
You should see the BusTalk archives.
"Dangerous ground, dude; especially when one could go over some of your posts and cite similar errors.
-Hank, the spelling-and-grammar flame king. :)"
I agree, Hank. He doesn't understand that he is setting himself up for future grammar scrutinization. As a result, his ability of getting his point across will become more difficult. Therefore, my advice to Train Dude is to be a little more considerate to a person's feeling by removing himself from this method of attacking a person for their views. This will reduce the likelihood of someone attacking him for the same reasons.
N bwy
Good to see you got out of drydock Hank. I was wondering where the hell you've been keeping yourself. ABTW, you haven't chickened out on your big day have you? It is supposed to be sometime about now. And yes, the Mets really suck and I'm catching hell out here. Still, I am wearing my Mets shirt right now and the cap that Mr. T (Thurston) gave me. I'd rather fight than switch.
Don t you wear my N T shirt anymore???
What the hell kind of a question is that? I wore the shirt Saturday evening when I went to Mass. How's that. I also wear my #4 Sea Beach Fred hat as well. Of course, your Brighton D shirt is now a thing of the past since they have drydocked it at 34th Street. How's that for a big laugh? Eat your heart out. The Sea Beach still lives.
"I don't think that we're here to pick on minor spelling and grammar gaffs. Most times most people let them slide but in this post and in a previous exchange with another sub-talker, the spelling and grammar went well beyond the excusable."
Whenever someone's grammar is attacked, I consider that a punk out. Especially if that person couldn't substantiate their claim on a particular issue. In other words, I find it very disturbing when a person relegate themselves to this method of proving their point. It does nothing but increase the tension between the two parties. Perhaps a better method could have been used?
"Now as to your other point, as a matter of fact, I was a school teacher - many years ago.
School's out my friend"
That wasn't hard, because, judging by your response, it was obvious.
N Bwy
"Whenever someone's grammar is attacked, I consider that a punk out. Especially if that person couldn't substantiate their claim on a particular issue."
Let me respond in 3 parts:
1)So, if I understand you correctly, "Whenever someone's grammar is attacked, (you) consider that a punk-out?" I've seen many posts where spelling errors and grammar were criticized in the past. Where have you jumped in before this? When did you become the 'Spell-Check Avenger"? If you do not like my posts, either the content or the tone, then I strongly suggest that you add me to your kill file. You are not qualified to become my censor nor do I need you to proof-read my posts.
2) I thought I made myself clear. I first criticized the info posted by MrX2001. It was garbage & I said so. When he responded, his post did not contain a few grammatical errors. It was an abortion of the English language. I also pointed that out to him.
3) As to my being a former schoool teacher, do I detect a note of discord? What do you have against educated people? More to the point, why have you appointed yourself the protector of the less educated?
It looks to me like you and Broadway Local are trying to replicate the #1 Brighton Beach Bob vs #4 Sea Beach Fred go-round. Well have it if you wish, but remember this. Ours was in a friendly vein, and I am staying with him when I visit Virginia next month. I don;t think you're version of it will have you guys lunching together anytime soon.
Don t forget to bring your Gold Amex and Platinum Visa, because in Virginia we don t take Subway Tokens and California Checks
American Express Travelers Checks. As Karl Malden says: "Don't leave home without them."
Uh-oh, women and children off the streets!:-)
Are you two going to resume your Brighton-Sea Beach shouting match?
YUP, especially when Fred gets to Virginia in a month
Why wait until then? Poor Train Dude and N Broadway Local are trying to replicate us and are falling flat on their faces. Let's have at it now and show them how it's done. The maybe they'll get it and do it right as we do. Who knows? Maybe it will inspire others to start a friendly feud on this line.
To be frank, earlier I was attacked for the same reason. But I kept my cool until I saw you doing the same thing. What you need to understand, the members on this board make up various age groups and educational levels. When you attack someone you know hardly about, you completely overlook that person's feelings and what they are trying to say. Whenever that happens, you make people feel uncomfortable about contributing to this message board. And that could be the same person who might save your life one day.
Prejudging people only leads to trouble... So please keep an open mind about people. Thanks and have a good day.
N Bwy
This thread is becoming monotonous and is not producing anything in the way of a meaningful resolution. So, to put an end to it, let me restate my position.
I am privy to certain information that others may not be. I have no problem with sharing that information freely, at my discretion. I also have a certain lack of tolerance for people who post jibberish and proclaim it as fact. If someone posts something that I take exception to, I will call them on it - with or without your approval.
I'm also aware that subtalk has no spell-check or grammar checker so I do not nit-pick minor mistakes. We all make them because, poor spelling skills due to spell-checks, carelessness or simply because of the speed at which we try to get our thoughts down on the screen. However, when someone goes beyond the occasional mistake, when they massacre the English language, I will, if the mood strikes me, take the time to point it out. I'll do this just like I would do for an outrageous statement about the subject matter at hand - whether you like it or not.
Now as to your final point (which, incidentally, I find idiotic): If my life were in jeopardy and a person elected not to save it because I corrected their grammar, then perhaps grammar is not their biggest problem. I have some very basic and very deep phylosophical differences with one member of this board. Yet, if he were in danger, I would not use that as a pretext to do nothing. I find your argument extremely childish and meaningless.
As I said before, I am who I am. I can be antagonistic at times & compassionate at times. I'm not about to change my ways as they've served me for over a half century. If at any time I become so much of an annoyance to you, I urge you to simply ignore me. If you have not the self control to do this, use your kill file - chill out - and enjoy the rest of the posters, here.
By the way, I've knowingly included one mistake in the above. See if you can find it.
Steve
}}}}By the way, I've knowingly included one mistake in the above.
}}}}See if you can find it.
****If at any time I become so much of an annoyance to you, I urge ****you to simply ignore me.
Hmm....there's definitely something wrong with this particular sentence, i'm not sure what it's called however. "So much" in that construction, I believe, is always followed by a variant of "that", as in: "If at any time I become so much of an annoyance to you THAT YOU SPURT BLOOD FROM YOUR EYESOCKETS (for instance), I urge you to..."
-Alan Scott
PS: also the word "jibberish" should be "gibberish", I believe. I tend to mispronounce it, because of that, in fact, with a hard-G sound, causing people to look at me funny.
PPS: "We all make them because, poor spelling skills due to spell-checks, carelessness or simply because of the speed at which we try to get our thoughts down on the screen." <---this sentence should read I think "...all make them because OF poor...". Also, the construction is not parallel....the three reasons for bad spelling should each be introduced with the same phrase: "because of.." or "due to.." etc.
PPPS: "Phylosophical" shoudl be "philosophical".
Did I do good, Teach? :D I can be quite the grammar nazi sometimes.
OK, I'll have a bit o' fun here as well....
}}}}By the way, I've knowingly included one mistake in the above.
}}}}See if you can find it.
I don't think that we're here to pick on minor spelling and grammar gaffs.
Should that not have been gaffes? [he says, ducking]
[rant on]
In all seriousness, I agree with TD's point-of-view on many, many issues. As a former journalism-major many moons ago (will type for food) and now as a part-time author and proof reader--and married to a professional proof reader, may I add--I place a high value on the English language and its usage. That said, we all goofe-up hour speling and grammar on occasion :-).
TD was right on the money (a bad Canadian pun if ever there was one) with his comments on MrX2001's post and I assure you that I will never comment on simple typos in posts (other than the above, as a joke). Rightly or wrongly, people are inded judged by their vocubulary, grammar, spelling and syntax as strongly as by the ideas they are trying to convey. If one presents a well-written but inaccurate message it will often be given greater weight in the minds of readers than a brilliant idea conveyed poorly.
By the way, this thread ties in absolutely perfectly with the New York Post's front-page story from last Friday. This piece focused on a 10-year teaching veteran in the NYC public school system who wrote several letters-to-the-editor that were so badly written as to be laughable.
Just my two cents on what is one of my hottest of hot buttons.
[rant off]
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Train Dude Steve has let it all out and spoken. You all know where he stands, and so let's cut this crap out and put this topic to rest once and for all. There!!!! Dynamic, am I not? And from 3000 miles away.
Yes, you is dinamyc.
By the way, I've knowingly included one mistake in the above. See if you can find it.
I see two spelling errors.
Anybody for splitting hairs. I can tell you this. Sometimes I get so anxious to get something on the board that I fail to proofread my work as well as I should. Ever get the feeling that is why some of us make spelling and grammatical mistakes? It's not excuse but it makes sense.
We all make them because, poor spelling skills due to
spell-checks, carelessness or simply because of the speed at which we try to get our thoughts down on the screen.
This is really a sentence fragment and the first comma shouldn't be there.
-Robert (in the finite, and extremely limited, wisdom of the Toronto Board Of Education, we are not taught grammar because it has not been included in the officially sanctioned curriculum for a little over twenty years now) King
"Sentence fragment" is also a sentence fragment.
Yes.
-Hank
Indeed.
-Robert King
The truth is that I really didn't intentionally include one error in my previous post. I simply posted my message without checking the spelling or grammar, the way most of us do. The errors were legitimate errors that I made.
I'm not sure what the point is except to say that there is a difference between a few (or even more than a few) legitimate spelling/grammar errors and posting absolute garbage in both content and form. For those who don't see the difference, it should not matter.
So, you weren't even trying to sneak by a purposely made mistake just to see if it would be caught. That's even sneakier.
That 'one mistake challenge' of yours reminded me of a history quiz I had once which included, as the bonus question, "Find and circle the speling mistake in this test to get a bonus mark." I usually give my posts a very quick proofread to try and catch the more obvious typos, spelling and grammar mistakes. Believe me, I do understand the point you are trying to make. If you really want to see absolute garbage in both content and form that's worse than the posts here, you need look no further than the Transit-Toronto mailing list because a substantial percentage of the submissions fit that description exactly. Consider this example which was sent out this morning that I've cut and pasted in:
Hi
My old manager came into the store last night. He was offered a job at our
Head Office in downtown Toronto, and he had took it. Anyway he came to work
last night to pick up boxes, because he is moving. Right now he lives on
Wellesley Street, and walk to our head office. Now quess where he is moving.
Him and his boyfriend are moving to Peterborough. I understand that is where
he is from. But still. He said a townhome out there only costs $500.00.
Cheaper then what they are probley paying on Wellesley Street for an
apartment. But still, that is far. Anyway he said it is not bad, because he
will just take the GO TRAIN from Oshawa each day.
Now I am sorry. This living two hours from work just does not make sense.
They probley would not move out there, if there was no GO TRANSIT.
It's pretty grim, isn't it?
-Robert King
hahhahah, I is happy that you duz no watt I wuz tryun ta say!
mmmmphhhhh me, i no zactly wacha trn t' sai?!
-bRRRRRt nnnnnnnig
Ever see 'Better off dead' with John Cusak?
"[He had his] testicles all over me!" -French Chick
(Disbelief and confusion)"You mean tentacles, right?" -Lane
-Hank
It is true that we all come from different backgrounds and educational
levels. But it really irks me to see some of the horrible spelling and grammer that is posted on this board. You really can't say too
much, so lets just "grin & bear it". Train Dude , you are one of the
best posters on this board because of your expertise of your job, and your constant watching of this board.If I didn't have this to play with after a hard day's work, I'd be a sad sack.
Thanks to everyone, and watch your spelling!
Hope I spelled everything OK!
Chuck Greene
"If I didn't have this to play with after a hard day's work, I'd be a sad sack."
If I could get my wife into the sack after a hard day, I wouldn't need to play here.
You heard him Chuck. Sounds like pretty good advice to me. But, PLEASE. don't let your wife see this post.
>>>>>If I could get my wife into the sack after a hard day, I wouldn't need to play here.
Sure you would, just not nearly as often.
I feel the same way you do about the Dude. He's a standup guy and one of my best friends on this site. He pulls no punches and you always know where you stand with him. He's not like a few of the guys on this site, who, unfortunately, nit pick all to hell and when you call them on it they get real defensive and act like you've insulted their families, heritage, and the borough where they happen to live.
>>> He's not like a few of the guys on this site, who, unfortunately, nit pick all to hell and when you call them on it they get real defensive and act like you've insulted their families, heritage, and the borough where they happen to live. <<<
Surely you are mistaken Fred. There is certainly no one on this board who would exhibit such swinish behavior. :-)
Tom
It's been a long while since I've seen snouted creatures nitpicking. But I'm not sure who these snouted pictures are. :-)
No he's not. And don't call him Shirley!
-Hank
Dude: You mean you deserted the CAUSE? OK, you did it for the money. Or was there something else? Just wondering.
Yup, I jumped ship back around '73. I didn't leave for financial considerations. It was a combination of many factors. The primary reason was that I was needed in the family business. Second was that I became disillusioned rather quickly with the raw materiel I was given to work with.
I've since, toyed with the idea of going back - at least part time, perhaps to Transit Tech. Then again, I love my free time more than I need another income or another pension. Perhaps when i leave here I'll give it another try.
Thanks for sharing this info with me Dude. I'll tell you this Steve. I was set to retire this June, but, believe it or not, my wife, daughter, friends, colleagues, and just about everyone else talked me out of it. Really. I do, believe, however, that next June will be my last days as a teacher. I hope then to run for the school board, or the city council where I live.
My daughter has never learned an easy lesson in her life. She's refused to take my advise and so this fall she will do her first year as a NYC JHS teacher.
Well then Dude you have to send her my congratulations and best wishes for a successful career. We need thousands, nay, hundreds of thousands of good young teachers. We need them badly and kudos for those people who will take the plunge. Give her all support you can.
PS---Hey Steve, Brighton Express Bob is back on line. Watch the fireworks start very soon between the two of us. Good friends, though.
Yup here we go again
I left the education field back in 1987 and have never looked back.
Oh you kid. What the hell kind of attitude is that Mr. A-Express? Well I'm confident Train Dude is not going to show his daughter your piece (I hope) Quitter!!!!!!! And why? We need teachers coming into the profession not going out. Well, despite your transgressions back then, I still wish you a happy Sea Beach day.
Sea Beach, You've got this liberal demoncrat's vote. A classy Republican like you will find real solutions that will help our schools to excel once again.
He is not a teacher, he fixes plumbing. DRAIN DUDE, people type his name wrong all the time as Train Dude.
...and don't forget about that bowling alley resurfacing company he owns...
Peace,
ANDEE
Gee, I thought he led a motorcycle gang.
Hey Brooklyn, I see some real potential for a flamage war unless you meant that tongue-in-cheek. The Dude can get his dander up with the best of them.
Fred, you must have missed a thread about six or eight months back...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm a teacher. Does that qualify me? Of course, those students of mine who C's might dispute my qualifications. But take it from me---you will won't you?-----I'm an ok academician.
Offence is correctly spelled according to British and Canadian conventions.
-Robert King
I just read select posts in the thread, and from the point of view of someone who wasn't in it, I thought it was a riot. My favorite line is the following statement made by Train Dude:
As for where I get my information about the subways, I read a lot, especially here on subtalk.
After reading this, MrX2001's initial post, and the 'scrolling garbage' post, I was laughing so hard that I had to run for the bathroom. Have you guys read this stuff? It's hilarious.
Anyways, I have a few questions:
1. How do you make scrolling text?
2. How do you change text size? What is normal text size?
3. How do you change your selected font?
Replace { with <.
Change size:
{font size="x">Text in new size{/font>text in normal size.
Example.
Change font:
{font face="fontname">Text in new font.{/font>Text in normal font.
Example.
Normal size is usually 3.
You can combine the color, size, and face specifications under one font tag. ie:
Example.
{font size="7" face="arial" color="green">Example{/font>.
Replace { with <.
You mean like this:
Why is it Subtalk has problems with entering escape sequences? Should I not preview, should I preview?
The problem is that the escape sequences are being interpreted as the actual symbols. If you don't put the trailing ; at the end of the sequence, IE correctly interprets it:
<font face="arial">Example.
You can always see how it’s done: just select “View Source” from the appropriate menu on your browser. Copy the HTML tags that appeal to you!
John
BETTER:
If you use IE5, install the Partial source view (it's part of the developer tools package). This way you can only see the source you want.
If you need references about HTML tags, go to http://www.quadzilla.com/.
Most of that site deals with stuff other than HTML.
For HTML (and CSS), I've found the reference section of http://www.htmlhelp.com/ useful. Or, if you're a masochist, go to the W3C site for the official HTML definition.
Back when I discovered Quadzilla, it was much better. Quadzilla still has a reference guide for each individual tag, which is what I want, since I know how HTML works (just as I might still need an English dictionary, but not a grammar book).
So does the WDG guide (htmlhelp). See, for example, the entry on IMG.
This post makes Salaam look like an Oxford graduate.
No offense but getting a seat on the 4 is like asking a hot girl to [deleted] you and her saying yes
Of course, if you're waiving a few hundred-dollar bills in her face, it shouldn't be too hard.
Perhaps a bit of personal observation over a period of a few days along with a working time-piece with paper and pen to record train arrival times at a given station along Eighth Ave. will prove that your assertions of service regularity on the C is wrong. The Straphangers Campaign never said that the C runs every 30 minutes (approx), and it does not! Sure, at times there are service disruptions which are not the fault of TA personel or the equipment. During the daytime hours the C runs every 10 minutes, 8 to 9 minutes apart during the rush and 12 minutes apart during the evening. The E runs every 5 minutes during the rush (a very long rush hour the E has), every 7 1/2 minutes midday and every 12 minutes in the late evening, 20 minutes on the midnite.
[The Straphanger's Campaign has gained some legitimacy over the years, however. They have internal power struggles, explaining the new (lesser) position for Mr. Russianoff - yet despite the internal chaos, they have the ear of the media, the mayor, the governor and the MTA. Idiots don't often get that.]
- - - - -
Think, for a moment, about the "activists" who invoke the rallying cry of "No Justice, No Peace." That isn't a complaint - it's a GOAL. The perceived absence of justice and peace provides their income, and any implementation of justice and peace will put them out of work.
The same applies to ALL "advocacy" groups, including the Straphangers' Campaign. It's important to remember that Straphangers is, first and foremost, a business. The first rule of accounting, formally known as the "going concern" principle, states that every business is assumed to exist indefinitely and should take measures to ensure such longevity. In other words, its first order of business is TO STAY IN BUSINESS.
Suppose NYC Transit suddenly turned into the proverbial Swiss Railroad, or at least implemented vast improvements in the subway and bus systems. Then Straphangers would have little or nothing to complain about, and would thus go out of business.** To prevent such a thing from happening, Straphangers must put its efforts into (1) opposing any real improvements in service or infrastructure, even while publicly calling for those improvements, and (2) constantly complaining, even if the circumstances must be exaggerated (e.g. if there's one incorrect sign in one car, the whole train counts as being mis-labeled).
- - - - -
** Don't laugh. That almost happened to the March of Dimes, which was established to fight polio. Once Dr. Jonas Salk found the cure, MoD was forced to release it - but not before picking another cause (all birth defects) to keep itself from folding.
>>> The same applies to ALL "advocacy" groups, including the Straphangers' Campaign. It's important to remember that Straphangers is, first and foremost, a business. <<<
Where do they derive income from criticizing MTA shortcomings? And do you believe, even after reading the accounts on Sub Talk of frequent GOs, and other service disruptions that the MTA is so close to perfection in its operations that any criticism is unwarranted?
>>> Straphangers must put its efforts into (1) opposing any real improvements in service or infrastructure, <<<
Please give an example of when the Straphangers have opposed improvements in service or infrastructure.
>>> That almost happened to the March of Dimes, which was established to fight polio. Once Dr. Jonas Salk found the cure, MoD was forced to release it - but not before picking another cause (all birth defects) to keep itself from folding. <<<
By your way of thinking, the March of Dimes must have been trying all along to sabotage Dr. Salk's work. I doubt that. That the March of Dimes went on to a new cause is not surprising. It was not an advocacy group, but a fund raising organization. Once polio was defeated there was a choice of disbanding an effective nationwide money raising organization, or transferring its expertise to another worthy recipient. That the latter choice was chosen is not surprising, but it does not reflect badly on the effort the March of Dimes put forth to help defeat polio, or is doing to raise money for research into birth defects.
Tom
[Where (does Straphangers) derive income from criticizing MTA shortcomings?]
Dues and contributions from new members who are attracted to join after each press conference.
- - - - -
[And do you believe, even after reading the accounts on Sub Talk of frequent GOs, and other service disruptions that the MTA is so close to perfection in its operations that any criticism is unwarranted?]
Of course not; the subway system has never been beyond reproach. (Please go back to my post and READ it; I was speaking hypothetically.) At the same time, Straphangers fully understands that, in order to remain a "going concern" for accounting purposes, it must never allow its sole adversary to appear "close to perfection" or show significant improvement.
----
[Please give an example of when the Straphangers have opposed improvements in service or infrastructure.]
The first Capital Program in the early 1980s. Straphangers opposed it quite vigorously, on the grounds that system improvements could threaten the group's existence. Can you spell "Sherman Anti-Trust Act"?
>>> The first Capital Program in the early 1980s. Straphangers opposed it quite vigorously, on the grounds that system improvements could threaten the group's existence. <<<
I find this very hard to believe. Was this covered by the N.Y. Times? If so, what year and month so I can look it up in the archives.
And yes I can not only spell "Sherman Anti-Trust Act," I have a pretty fair understanding of the provisions of the act and do not see how it would apply to either the first Capital Program or the Straphangers.
Tom
The Straphangers are funded by NYPIRG, and thus three is no direct relationship between publicity and money.
The interesting thing about the Straphangers is this. Most "liberal" "consumer advocates" are happy to take on the "big corporations." But when it comes to the government, non-profit organizations, and unions, well the quality of service is assumed to be just fine.
You don't find Consumer Reports slamming the quality of NYC public schools. Nor did Nader's Raiders point out that members of NYC's public employee unions such as DC 37, which they are compelled to join, are ripping them off. The non-profiteers always escape scrutiny while demanding more and more money.
Yet here you have the Straphangers demanding lower prices and better service from a public agency. Perhaps the fact that the MTA's administrative structure SEEMS corporate has confused them.
My understanding of the straphangers campaign, is it is run by NYPIRG, a non profit environmental organization. So your theories of it being a business is very incorrect. And since it's an environmental protection organization, it makes much sense to promote alternative modes of transportation.
There is a lot to be achieve through reduce waiting time, and cleaner subways. But if your intension is to promote the freedom to drive an automobile, it is obvious why you wrote that last post. Especialy against an organization that promotes cleaner environments for all New York citizens!!!
N Bwy Line
[My understanding of the straphangers campaign, is it is run by NYPIRG, a non profit environmental organization. So your theories of it being a business is very incorrect. And since it's an environmental protection organization, it makes much sense to promote alternative modes of transportation.]
1. Even a non-profit entity is still a business and is governed by generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP). As I stated earlier, the first of those principles is the "going concern" (the assumption of perpetual existence).
2. NYPIRG (the New York Public Interest Research Group) and all the other states' PIRGs are all-purpose Professional Complainers' Societies. Like Straphangers, they write reports and hold press conferences to complain about problems but NEVER offer substantive (or any) solutions to those problems. As long as the problem exists, so does the organization.
3. "Alternative modes of transportation" don't need NYPIRG for promotion. Each "alternative" mode's very existence is a form of promotion, and each is already marketed by its provider (be it a transit agency or bike manufacturer). PLUS, each should already be endorsed by government policy in the interest of congestion mitigation and energy conservation.
Like Straphangers, they write reports and hold press conferences to complain about problems but NEVER offer substantive (or any) solutions to those problems. As long as the problem exists, so does the organization.
I do think that they offer solutions to these problems.
Thanks steve for answering the question for me. No need to respond to this guy who like to find fault in environmental organization.
N Bwy
There are only goals in that document, no real solutions. The only comment from Straphangers is, "There should be no more than a four-minute rush-hour wait on any subway line—and a seat for everyone in the off-hours;" I see no mention of the group's plan on overcoming physical capacity limitations or finding extra funds to cover the expense of running inefficient service in off-peak hours.
(There are only goals in that document, no real solutions. The only comment from Straphangers is, "There should be no more than a four-minute rush-hour wait on any subway line—and a seat for
everyone in the off-hours;")
You might instead call it a standard of service. I agree it is a little too ambitious, but not by much. I think that anyone riding more than 20 minutes before arriving in Manhattan should get a seat -- at all times. And a six minute wait for a train at rush hour -- ten mintues off peak -- is sufficient.
The max today is 10 minutes at rush hour, and 15 minutes off base, on the G. They should eliminate the conductor, cut the train in half, and run twice as many trains by converting the former conductor to a train operator.
the G...They should eliminate the conductor, cut the train in half, and run twice as many trains by converting the former conductor to a train operator.
The TA is meeting this challenge half way. They will cut the train size, remove the conductor but run them just as infrequently. :-)
Isn't that the argument that Ebenezer Scrooge uses to avoid giving anything for the relief of the poor?
Getting back to your original post, I take some issue with your remarks. There are some self-appointed, self-important individuals who once had lionel trains at X-mas. They think that based on their vast experience in 0-27, they are now qualified criticize that which they really do not understand. (Such is the little moron with the red beard who rides the Ronkonkoma line and terrorizes crews with the implied threat of the poison pen) The Straphanger's Campaign has gained some legitimacy over the years, however. They have internal power struggles, explaining the new (lesser) position for Mr. Russinoff - yet despite the internal chaos, they have the ear of the media, the mayor, the governor and the MTA. Idiots don't often get that.
It's always a good idea when making an complaint to a business or organization (whether transit-related or not) to refrain from making suggestions on how to do things better. Simply pointing out the problem with sufficient detail is all that should be done. This probably is because the people who will handle the complaint get annoyed and defensive when they hear a dissatisfied customer proclaim "I can do it better."
In any event, the Straphangers seem to know this well. I am not a particular supporter of the group, but at least they don't pretend to be know-it-alls. They report the problems they find, but by and large don't offer their own solutions. That alone probably has helped build their legitimacy in the eyes of the TA and the city.
Maybe you should clean yourself up before you call someone else an idiot...
G line service 5 nights per week use 6 car trains rather than 4 car trains. Otherwise your calculations are ok as far as they go. However, is "breakdowns per train" statistically relavent? The D line is roughly 4 times as long as the G. Unless I'm missing something in your final calculations, the milage is not taken into account. If you fail to take milage into account, you are giving a run on the A line the same weight as a run on the Times Square shuttle.
G line service 5 nights per week use 6 car trains rather than 4 car trains.
Thanks for that correction. I used a spreadsheet for the calculations, so making the change is easy. The amended figures for the G should read:
car-miles/wk = 103731.14
trains/wk = 1676
breakdowns/wk = 1.58
breakdowns/train = 0.000945
This means that the expected number of trains/breakdown would be: 1058 instead of 1111. Still within experimental accuracy and good enough for government work :-)
However, is "breakdowns per train" statistically relavent?
The relevance of any metric depends on who is using it. I prefer to look at things from the customer's perspective. The customer's interest is in knowing whether or not a given train will complete its run without a breakdown. The probability for a breakdown is the number of breakdowns per scheduled train, using the relative frequency definition of probability.
...the mileage is not taken into account...you are giving a run on the A line the same weight as a run on the Times Square shuttle.
From a passenger's perspective it does not matter whether he is stuck on a train under Central Park West or under 42nd St. If breakdowns occur often, he will seek more reliable transportation. The passenger wants to know whether or not he will reach his destination when he enters a train, regardless of the trip length.
"From a passenger's perspective it does not matter whether he is stuck on a train under Central Park West or under 42nd St. If breakdowns occur often, he will seek more reliable transportation. The passenger wants to know whether or not he will reach his destination when he enters a train, regardless of the trip length."
If this is the premise of the calculation, then the MDBF number will not help you. Your matrix is treating all breakdowns as en route abandonments, which account for only part of the actual MDBF number. MDBF also takes into account terminal abandonments due to mechanical failure, where a customer never boards the train or is discharged before the train leaves. It also includes trains that arrive statistically late, also due to mechanical failure - something the customer may or may not be aware of.
To be statistically relavent - your calculation would need to take into account delays and/or abandonments due to:
Signal trouble
track work
sick customers
fire
police activity
lack of train crews
The basis of TQM is that the customer determines what quality is. Hence, I can put out a mechanically sound, spotlessly clean train that leaves on time and arrives on time. yet if the customer is harassed by the homeless, assaulted by criminals, or simply cannot get a seat, does this customer think he's gotten a quality ride? Of course he doesn't. By the same token, your matrix takes into account only one statistic that actually accounts for less than 20% of the actual service disruptions. Even at that, as I've said before, you are treating every blip in the mdbf graph as an en route abandonment - actually a not-so-common occurrence due to car equipment failure.
While I like your calculation (and may even borrow it for a TQM program I'm looking to impliment), much like MDBF, it is a statistic derived from data that may not be 100% relevant while omitting other data which may be. I know of no performance indicator that takes into account all of these factors necessary to make it useful. If your ultimate goal was to point out that MDBF is an unreliable predictor of overall quality, I agree. The problem with the straphanger's group ratings is that they rely on TA data for some portions of their evaluation while using subjective observation for others. Neither is so reliable that it cannot be challanged. This quarter, it made me look great. Next quarter, without changing a thing, I may be at the bottom. So tell me how unreliable their ratings are........
I agree with all the objections you mentioned with regard to my use of the breakdown probability and using the MDBF statistic in calculating it. I can also think of a few more shortcomings to my application and calculation of this statistic that you failed to mention. I just think that it is a better metric from the customer's perspective than the MDBF metric.
I think you may be confused about the definition of "quality" in TQM. I believe it is used in the sense of a characteristic rather than a degree of excellence. A perfect quality control system would have no variation in product's qualities - good, bad or indifferent.
This quarter, it made me look great. Next quarter, without changing a thing, I may be at the bottom. So tell me how unreliable their ratings are........
Actually, I think it quite likely, in view of the Manhattan Bridge changes. I'd assume that the probability of failures increases with both distance travelled and time interval. (A part will rot whether it is continually operating or only infrequently.) The expected mileage travelled per car should decrease, when the D's are turned at 34th St. This means that the D's will still have the same number of time related failures but a lower distance travelled.
We've already projected this and are braced for a definite drop in MDBF. On the other hand, the cars will be cleaned only by Concourse employees and we'll be able to control 'quality' far more effectively. Of course we'll be dropping from 276 cars to 216 and may be a bit more proactive in performing inspections and maintenance. This willbe uncharted waters and we'll have to be flexible in the way we do business in order to maintain our standards.
On the other hand, all of the crews will be uptown crews. None will sign on at Coney island. We'll be more familiar with them and possibly be able to get more of them on board. It's really great that I have counterparts in RTO that have the same basic philosophy about service quality. It makes working easier.
Sounds great, too bad I'm stuck in south brooklyn on the Q's... I promise not to say "Yankee Specials" any more too since I will not be riding any of your cars anymore....
(I think a tear is forming);-(
Your narrow perspective shows you don't understand the customer's perspective well enough to translate it into a useful metric. Reread Train Dude post, with an open mind willing to learn, read mine, and then reconsider what you've written. You missed the point, mostly because you're not willing to listen to anyone else.
The MDBF figures show a a 3.74 ratio between the 2nd best and worst performing lines. One might be inclined to conclude that a passenger would be almost 4 times as likely to be on a train that suffered a breakdown on the G than on the D. The misleading aspect is that the MDBF measure becomes inflated with more cars/train, longer route mileage and more frequent service for the same per train breakdown criteria. When these statistical anomolies are taken into account the breakdown performance difference between these two services is only 4.7% not 274%. This range discrepency is what is misleading about using the MDBF statistic for this application.
I don't think the TA or the MTA endorse the straphanger's group, their calculations or the results either. The group has elected to use MDBF in their calculation. The problem is MDBF is only incidently useful in measuring customer satisfaction. MDBF is a tool used by maintenance shops to gauge performance. The shortcoming is that while we deal in trains, we work and measure in cars. Therefore, as you point out, your calculation is skewed by the "car-miles" factor. Yet it gives us exactly what we need to scale our performance vs other maintenance shops and vs pre-determined departmental goals.
In your calculations, you have taken MDBF and worked backwards using TA schedules to determine milage. The fact that the D and G came out so close in the calculation may be significant in an operational setting - I'm still pondering that. However, the fact that the D & G did finish identically in your calculation yet so widely diverse in the survey is easily explainable. The survey took into account on time performance, cleanliness, likelihood of getting a seat, and the quality of PA announcements. These are all subjective to be sure and totally ignored by the MDBF calculators.
Now here's a question. You say that the MDBF stat is measured in cars.
Say that a train is taken out of service due to a defective door. Is the MDBF calculated using that one car with the defective door, or all 8 cars since they all had to be taken out of service?
Or am I misunderstanding something here?
It's a little of both. Take an A train for example. Let's assume that the line length is 30 miles. A train of R-44s will therefore travel 240 car miles (8 cars X 30 miles) while a train of R-38s will travel 300 car miles. So if a train has an in-route failure, the MDBF would be either 240 miles or 300 miles (car-miles/number of delays). Over the month, it's the total car-miles divided by the total number of charged delays over the same period.
"In your calculations, you have taken MDBF and worked backwards using TA schedules to determine milage. The fact that the D and G came out so close in the calculation may be significant in an operational setting - I'm still pondering that. However, the fact that the D & G did finish identically in your calculation yet so widely diverse in the survey is easily explainable. The survey took into account on time performance, cleanliness, likelihood of getting a seat, and the quality of PA announcements. These are all subjective to be sure and totally ignored by the MDBF calculators."
Yet the other measures (not counting graffitti) will not prevent a train from showing up at your platform. A breakdown will. So MDBF is actually more relevant to customer service, and ironically, more relevant to the case Stephen Baumann tries to make, than any other factor.
true
"Yet the other measures (not counting graffitti) will not prevent a train from showing up at your platform."
I'd have to really disagree with you here. A train ABD'd for no crew will not make its run. At train that is blocked by a rail condition, signal or switch trouble, a fire or a flood will not complete its run. A train removed from service due to police action or investigation, capital construction or civil demonstrations - all these will prevent a train from getting to you or taking you where you need to go. For a practical matter,they occur 4-5 times more often than mechanical failure.
I don't get this totally. Just to clear this up, lets say that both an A and G train run 50 train miles before average breakdowns. The A is 10 cars, the G is 4. So the A runs (50*10)/10 to calculate the MDBF, and the G is (50*4)/4. Same number.
>>> The A is 10 cars, the G is 4. So the A runs (50*10)/10 to calculate the MDBF, and the G is (50*4)/4. <<<
Not quite. You have to remove both denominators to get the correct numbers.
Tom
That seems kind of weird. If a 10 car train breaks down, shouldn't that be considered all 10 cars breaking down? Or if a 4 car train breaks down, then all 4 cars break down. Even if the MTA has their reasons for calculating the MDBF as they do, the Straphanger's Campaign should divide that by the average train legnth to obtain an accurate result.
For the record, I have no relation with the straphangers group nor have I ever had one.
I think we are in agreement on most of the points that you raised. I do differ with the following.
However, the fact that the D & G did finish identically in your calculation yet so widely diverse in the survey is easily explainable. The survey took into account on time performance, cleanliness, likelihood of getting a seat, and the quality of PA announcements.
The rankings that I stated were only for the MDBF parameter. In fact, the G did not receive any overall rating because one of the parameters, "chance of getting a seat" could not be evaluated.
These are all subjective to be sure and totally ignored by the MDBF calculators. [on time performance, cleanliness, likelihood of getting a seat, and the quality of PA announcements]
What do you mean by "subjective"? If you mean that the data were biased by the person taking the data, I think you are mistaken. The straphangers were kind enough to explain how all their measurements were derived. All the data were taken by the TA, none by the straphangers organization. The on time and likelihood of getting a seat measurements were derived according to a strict mathematical formula. The cleanliness and quality of PA announcement measurments were based on surveys commissioned by NYCT's Department of Operations Planning.
The criteria may be subjective but I don't think that the measurments are biased.
Then again, I have seen the dilligence shown by the employees how do the PES (Passenger Environment Survey). Trust me - it's very subjective.
That's a limitation to the Straphangers' use of MDBF, not the metric itself.
The MDBF figures show a a 3.74 ratio between the 2nd best and worst performing lines. One might be inclined to conclude that a passenger would be almost 4 times as likely to be on a train that suffered a breakdown on the G than on the D. The misleading aspect is that the MDBF measure becomes inflated with more cars/train, longer route mileage and more frequent service for the same per train breakdown criteria. When these statistical anomolies are taken into account the breakdown performance difference between these two services is only 4.7% not 274%. This range discrepency is what is misleading about using the MDBF statistic for this application.
It seems fair to say that there is very little difference among the lines when it comes to delays caused by breakdowns. If indeed one line has more delays than another, the difference must be attributable to causes other than mechanical breakdowns - causes which may not always be within the TA's control (e.g. sick passengers, police activity).
It seems fair to say that there is very little difference among the lines when it comes to delays caused by breakdowns.
I've done my calculation only for the D and G lines. A complete analysis might show some larger variation between the lines. The calculations are tedious because the MTA publishes ambiguous scheduling information.
It would seem that you are using the schedule to determine mileage. Currently, monthly line-by-line mileage projections are not classified. If this will help, I'll look them up tomorrow. Mileage projections are available by line, by car class or by maintenance shop. Of course, there will be some skewing this month. Projections are based on past month(s) mileage and the computer cannot forcast mileage based on the service changes. The flip service changes will only skew projected mileage. The actual mileage will be 'accurate'.
I'll need the total number of car-miles and the number of trains for each line over a given period. For consistency the time period for these usage figures should coincide with the MDBF data used (by the straphangers). I'm willing to ignore this inconsistency for a quick and dirty calculation.
>>> The customer's interest is in knowing whether or not a given train will complete its run without a breakdown <<<
This is not really correct. The customer's interest is in reaching his destination. Not all customers ride the entire length of the line. Therefore you need to add to your calculations the average length of trip each customer takes on each line as a per cent of the total milage of the line. This would be far different on the "A" line and the Times Square Shuttle.
Even with this correction, I join with Train Dude and the others who have stated that using MDBF is not directly relevant to customer satisfaction.
Tom
I'll tell you what DOES matter though, and was one of many factors that caused me to throw in the towel and leave the city ... the ON TIME performance of the subway for WHATEVER the reason (dog on tracks, breakdown, car shortage, whatever) ... I expected to leave the house at a scheduled time (plus ten minutes) and ARRIVE at my place of work on time. Train troubles too often end up getting you FIRED ... and THAT is what "customer satisfaction" is all about as far as most people are concerned. An occasional (2x a year hopefully) problem can be dismissed, but if it happens 2x a month or more, then you've got some unhappy campers no matter how shiny the cars are.
I'll tell you what DOES matter though ... the ON TIME performance...
The City section of today's NY Times has an article suggesting that overcrowding also matters. :-)
One major problem in evaluating on time performance has been inaccurate TA data. Independent observers have had to invent a measure that they could calculate without any help from the TA. The resulting statistic has not been as satisfactory as comparing accurate arrival times to scheduled arrival times.
Agreed there ... but if I have to wait for the next train because I can't get on the one that's just stopped, my trip time just grew by the gap and I'm late ... wonderful thing about statistics, they can be twisted to give you any result you want. :)
Not all customers ride the entire length of the line.
This was one of the shortcomings that I alluded to in one of my posts. It also applies to using the MDBF statistic.
Another major problem with the analysis is that most lines provide 2 rush hour services, starting at an uptown terminal going south through the CBD and also starting at a downtown terminal going north through the CBD. The comparison between different route should have broken down the analysis between the two services. Thus the "D" should have had the Bronx-Concourse service and the Brooklyn-Brighton service rated separately.
Therefore you need to add to your calculations the average length of trip each customer takes on each line as a per cent of the total milage of the line.
Such a correction assumes that the breakdowns are statistically independent of location. :-)
I join with Train Dude and the others who have stated that using MDBF is not directly relevant to customer satisfaction.
Is customer satisfaction influenced by breakdowns? If so, what metric do you propose to use to quantify it?
Not all customers ride the entire length of the line.
This was one of the shortcomings that I alluded to in one of my posts. It also applies to using the MDBF statistic.
Another major problem with the analysis is that most lines provide 2 rush hour services, starting at an uptown terminal going south through the CBD and also starting at a downtown terminal going north through the CBD. The comparison between different route should have broken down the analysis between the two services. Thus the "D" should have had the Bronx-Concourse service and the Brooklyn-Brighton service rated separately.
It would be interesting to see how the 7 compares. Unlike most lines, it has many end-to-end riders and provides only one rush hour service. This applies to the L as well, although probably to a lesser extent.
"Even with this correction, I join with Train Dude and the others who have stated that using MDBF is not directly relevant to customer satisfaction."
I do not believe this is what Train Dude actually said. Don't join before you know what you're joining. And the statement you offer isn't really correct, either.
>>> I do not believe this is what Train Dude actually said <<<
Quote from Train Dude's post # 238158:
"The problem is MDBF is only incidently useful in measuring customer satisfaction."
Tom
"The problem is MDBF is only incidently useful in measuring customer satisfaction."
Fair enough. I still believe that's wrong, and amply demonstrated.
"The metric that is most important from a rider's perspective is the probability that any given train will complete its run without a breakdown. The MDBF does not yield this information. The number of breakdowns divided by the number of scheduled trains does."
Wrong. The most important metric to riders is, "How likely am I to board a train on time and complete my trip?" Your proposed metric is not invalid, but is only one factor in this; others would include weather, infrastructure, manpower etc. As a rider, as long as a train picks me up at A and takes me to B, I'm not directly aware of the circumstances under which it happened, nor do I care.
MDBF does affect me in that it reflects the amount of maintenance (and therefore the amount of $$$) needed to keep trains running. This is reflected in the fares I pay, the taxes I am assessed and ultimately in the headways I experience on various lines. MDBF is much more useful, overall, than the metric you state.
Your analysis is flawed in that you've looked at one very narrow perspective and assume it governs much more than it does. You have done that quite often, and refuse to listen when someone points it out to you.
All new signs have been put up at the Bedford Park Station, all new maps have been put up, and all new time tables have been put up. It's amazing the pace the MTA is going. I wonder if the motormen are getting confused about there route (lol)
They have replaced the (D) signs with yellow (Q) signs for the most part at W. 8th St. on Coney Island.
Dan
To New Flyer. The R142 makes announcements according to where it is. I rode a R142 on a friday coming from Borough hall. It was saying this is a Manhattan bound 2 train. next stop is clark street. Then when we got to park place it said manhattan bound 2 train. Next stop is Chambers street. Then at chambers it then says manhattan bound 2 express.
Why does the 2 on the R142's announce "Manhattan bound 2 express"? It's supposed to be Brooklyn bound or Bronx bound.
The announcements that you have heard (Manhattan bound 2 express) is technically correct, because it is literally a Bronx bound 2 to 241 St-Wakefield, according to the stops that you have mentioned.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
No. It announces the next borough. Then when it's in the last borough, it it uses the last stop.
Conductors are required to do the same, according to an announcement "cheat sheet" sticker I saw in the cab above the window.
Have anything else from that cheat sheet to share with us? Seems interesting.
good point railfan pete
sometimes it does that
At Chambers it says "This is a Bronx-bound 2 express." Maybe that is what you meant to say.
It continues saying that up through 135th St. Then when it gets to the Bronx at 149th St. it says "This is a Wakefield-bound 2 train." I guess they will use the "neighborhood" names that now appear on the map for all terminals. I expect that when the 5 finally gets R-142s, the announcements will say "This is an Eastchester-bound 5 train."
And if the 3 gets them, the announcements from Chambers on will say "This is a Harlem-bound 3 train." Not too many years ago, the TA was very careful to avoid ever using the word "Harlem" - remember the controversy about the "warning" signs and announcements at 96th St./Broadway to change for the 1 for upper Broadway?
youre 100% correct it should say that
How about Lenox ave bound train or Malcolm X ave bound train.
good point
The 3 terminates at Lenox Terminal, which is not on Lenox Avenue. And I don't think most New Yorkers have heard of the Malcolm X honorary name.
Most New Yorkers know where 148th Street is. Why not use the name everyone's familiar with?
Can anyone tell me where the Hell Gate Bridge is located? and also where it runs to/from and also what to they use it for?.. etc.
I remember seeing a photo of the Astoria Blvd. N station and the bridge goes above that line.
I've also seen a Conrail freight and Amtrak trains in the photos that I have seen on a website. I know it is 'catenary wired'.
= )
Railfan Pete.
The Hell Gate follows the Triboro Bridge between Queens and the Bronx. It is used for freight, R-142 shipments, and to get AMTRAK trains from Penn Station to Metro North's New Haven line, merging in just south of New Rochelle. The line is clearly visible on the subway map, however it is incorrectly shown to cross the N line between Astoria Blvd and Ditmars Blvd.
The line does cross over the N line at Ditmars Blvd. Go see for yourself.
I know, but I was referring to the position of the line on the map. It shows the tracks crossing the N slightly north of Astora Blvd, where in actuality it crosses directly over Ditmars Blvd.
Slightly south from the Ditmars Station.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Actually, I would say that the bridge bisects Ditmars Boulevard Station. Have a look at these:
John
I get your point. Southern part of the station instead of south of the station I mean. But I'm close!
Damn! What is the RR doing there? Just joking.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
By the way, how high is those railroad tracks? It must be about around 300 feet in order to pass over the EL tracks? Also, I think I saw the date when those railroad tracks were built, but can someone refresh my memory? And lastly, can someone tell me when those elevated tracks was built (one's served by my subway line? Thanks everyone for your answers.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
300 feet high is unlikely. According to PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF STATIONS, published by NYCT(A) in June 1982, the Ditmars Boulevard station is 29 feet high. I don't have figures for the height of the Hell Gate Bridge where it passes over the Astoria Line, but since the bottom of the arch through which the Astoria Line passes looks (in the photos) to be just over the top of the trains (and the canopy) and the arch doesn't seem to be very thick, I'd say the bridge is no more than 20 feet over the Ditmars Boulevard platform.
David
Are you really sure about that? 29 feet really doesn't sound reasonable. Maybe you forgot the 1 in 29. That bridge over shadows the entire neighborhood it serves.
Let use the average height of a man, for example. Most males grow to about 6 feet tall. And apartment buildings measures around 15 feet per floor. The elevated subway is taller than most buildings in the neighborhood which are 3 stories tall. Already your talking about something over 45 feet tall. And the bridge served by Amtrak does appear to over shadow the elevated line. At least 100 feet should be a more rational estimate... (50 x the height of the amtrak tracks from the el).
N Bwy
I would recommend you take a look at the photos I found from the Ditmars Boulevard station pictures on the site. While I would agree that the maximum height of the bridge is somehwat taller than you find at the el station, and certainly the bridge and its approach overshadows a lot of Astoria, I don’t think that the height at the station is more than twice the station height.
60' max I would say. (29*2+a couple of feet for fluff).
John
The highest structure in NYCT is the Smith/9th St. Station in the F/G it is 80 + feet. is the bridge taller then that? you've got your measurement
Ah, but the hell gate isn't NYCTA...
I'd guess around 100 ft near ditmars, 200 or so down by the park ? It towers over some 4 or 5 floor apartment buildings down there
That's what I was saying earlier, but no one seems to be listening to me.
N Bwy
I got an old book or two that talk about the actual building of the bridge, i'll see if they have any figures...
It's a high bridge... you can see the approach all the way from queens plaza upper level platform.
Thanks JOE!
N
A)I looked it up - it did indeed open in 1917 - April 1, to be exact. Freight lines were opened a little over a year later (they had to fill in 'juniper swamp' - a swamp that was in queens, presently covered over with houses - along the ROW just north of fresh pond). The book has a funny shot of a large group of men on the brdige with a parlor car at the rear of the train - they're all dressed exactly alike with suits and them funny little hats on.
B)it also states that the bridge goes up to 250 feet at it's middle over the river - so if that's true my estimates were off a tad...
C)more facts: it's 3.7 miles long, from port morris to the location where the freight and passenger tracks split in queens ("sunnyside jct")
D)the main span over the eat river apparently cost 12 million to build. I wond what that'd be today? 200 billion + NIMBY hazing? It's designed to car 38 tons per lineal foot, and broke many records when it was built...
E)Back then the PRR & NH interchanged via car float @ 65th street yard in brooklyn 1000-1100 cars of freight in both directions per day - with a good potion of that i'm sure heading over hell gate. perhaps 10 times the freight that the bridge sees on it's best days now. (cross harbor via float has done much worse - I believe the cross harbor RR moves perhaps 10-30 cars per day - though that should increase a bit with the redbirds going to scrap.
F)growing up, i heard an urban legand about some child molester who based his illegal ways out of some room in the base of the queens side of the bridge, and how he had disturbing photos all over the walls when caught. who knows if it's true or not. there's also the legand of the spanish or dutch explorer ships at the bottom of the river, which could not survive the swirling, whirlpooling currents of 'the hell gate' (so aptly named) below...
*phew* I think that's all i can muster...
I looked it up - it did indeed open in 1917 - April 1, to be exact. Freight lines were opened a little over a year later (they had to fill in 'juniper swamp' - a swamp that was in queens, presently covered over with houses - along the ROW just north of fresh pond).
I wondered where Juniper Valley Park got its name. Guess the old swamp must have been the source.
Likely... though where the juniper name originated, who knows? maybe it was a family name of someone that had a large far in that area...
A juniper is a type of tree. I highly doubt it was a family. Everything isn't named after people.
it seems common though. *cough*cough*BRONX*cough*cough*...
perhaps there were lots o them trees around there?
A couple of additions/minor corrections:
While April 1, 1917 was the date for the opening ceremonies, no trains were routed across the bridge until April 3. This may be a reference to passenger trains, since another source indicates that the bridge was opened to rail traffic on September 30, 1916.
The height to the top of the towers is 220' from ground level; the 250' you quote is the height above mean high water. The clearance of the span over the water is 135' (the deck would be a few feet higher), while the top of the arch is 305' above mean high water.
The figure most often quoted for the length of the bridge is 3.2 miles. Exactly what two points that represents I don't know, so your 3.7 mile figure may well be valid for the points you reference.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A) That's strange about the spet. 1916 date - maybe that's when they started some sort of testing, or installing the rail? According to my book freight started a few months later. ??
B)I see... the only figure i have is the 250, which i figured was the high point over the water.
C)3.7 seems to be the distance from 'port morris' to 'sunnyside jct' - sunnyside jct though is around 49,50th streets, and except for the bridges over the streets, the track comes onto a high fill at 43rd or 44th street right near the grand central parkway. - thus 3.2 is probably correct for the bridge portion of the line.
I was right! The bridge is over 100 feet. And thanks again for the info Joe.
N Bway
No problemo.
I believe that the Hellgate Bridge is roughly the same age as the PRR tunnels under the rivers.
I'm pretty sure it was built in 1917, after the east river tunnels
Correct me, but didn't the New Haven RR send trains over the Hell Gate Bridge to Penn Station? When and why did this arrangement come to an end? I know that the NH had to use dual powered electrics into GCT because of the CT law prohibiting third rails, and that since GCT was NY Central property, they used third rail power into and out of GCT, but if the NH stayed with Penn Station, there would be no need for any changeover because it would be all catenary. Any ideas?
Didn't NH always send trains over the bridge into penn station? I don't know if that ever ended - perhaps the service to GCT was seperate. Sorta like how NJT goes to either hoboken or penn... ???
NJT took over services that were provided by separate rail lines - Hoboken was used by the Erie, while Penn Station in NYC was run by the Pennsylvania RR. Until a few years ago, there was no connection between the two because even though both were under catenary, the Erie used 3000 volt DC power, while the Northeast Corridor and associated lines used 11,000 volt AC. The Erie ran some wonderful old MU's on it's lines, but when they wanted to merge the systems and use only one type of electric power for everything, the old equipment had to be retired. Now there is a Northeast Direct connection between the former Erie lines and Penn Station, and you can now ride a train from Penn Station to Summit, NJ on the Morris and Essex line, for example. As far as travel between NY Penn Station and New Haven is concerned, when Penn Central took over rail passenger service, I remember reading something someplace about a GG-1 being sent into CT for testing purposes for extension of service to New Haven, and I knew that service to New Haven already was available from GCT. So, what parts of the story am I missing? I am just looking for accuracy and a chance to fill in some voids.
That's Midtown Direct, not Northeast Direct. Northeast Direct was/is Amtrak.
I remember riding the NYNH&H from Providence to NY prior to the merger of the NYC and the PRR. Trains from Boston to NY served both stations. For some strange reason, all the trains that continued to Washington, DC served Penn Station while all/most of the trains that terminated in NY went into GCT.
Thanks for the information. I would guess that since the LIRR also terminated at Penn Station, there was no room for anything else to terminate there, hence the use of GCT for trains terminating in NYc, and through trains going to points south of NYC using Penn Station.
Back before NYC and PRR merged, there was the additional matter of who owned the two stations. As a subsidiary of NYC, NYNH&H might not have wanted to use the PRR's station.
I remember riding into Penn Station from Providence in a train that was NYNH&H cars in the front and PRR in the back. The train was packed, but the PRR cars were locked until the PRR conductors got on the train at Penn Station.
I'm pretty sure after PC there was still seperate service to GCT and penn. GG1's stated on Ex NH in 1969, apparently. I know PC used the old NH EP5s for awhile - i can only guess to and from GCT since they had 3rd rail capacity.
I'm rather gray in this area myself... but the above is my best guess
I saw an EP5 pushing a PC freight train westbound on the Main Line in Radnor years ago.
Nice Pictures! That is the kind of picture that I would love to take. Lined up real nice with the subway and the locomotives. Good job.
They’re not mine!
They belong to our gracious host. I just picked them up from the Astoria Branch/Ditmars Boulevard Station description which is here on the site.
John
Well, then I give him a pat on the back. The pictures a great, and keep them coming.
The Hell Gate Bridge is DEFINITELY higher than 20 feet from the Ditmars Blvd. - Astoria elevated station, whoever stated this fact.
Do not assume anything when looking at photos. The best way is for someone to actually travel to Ditmars Blvd. and either get an estimate or actual height from there.
I would say the Bridge is around 50 feet more or less higher than the elevated N line.
Railfan Pete.
If you draw the track right above the Ditmars Blvd Station, it will be messed with the characters "Astoria/Ditmars Blvd" and the N-line sign.
It is indeed a dilemma. It depends on how TA targets the readers, the general public or the railfans.
Chaohwa
And if you really get technical about it the Ditmars Blvd Station and the Astoria El ends about a hundred feet or so south of Ditmars Blvd itself. So the Hell Gate crosses over the Ditmars Station platform between 23rd Ave and Ditmars Blvd.
It's got 3 tracks - 2 for amtrak (the two southernmost), which curves around through woodside and into sunnyside where it meets the LIRR main, sunnyside yard, and the tubes into penn station - to the north it goes to boston...
The freight track (used to be 2 - down to one since the 70'd or 80's (?)) is pretty active, with CP, CSX, P&W (summer only) - all of which go to the NYA (which does all the freight on LI) at fresh pond jct - out near middle village...
It's busier now that it's been in the last 20 or so years.
Technically, the elevated railroad passing over the Ditmars Blvd. Station platforms is not the "Hellgate Bridge," but rather an elvated portion of the "New York Connecting Railroad." The Hellgate Bridge is really just the massive, red-painted cantilevered span over "Hell Gate," which is the name given to the straight between Randall's/Ward's Island and Long Island Sound. It was so given due to the many shipwrecks which happened there.
Also, as was mentioned, one track has been removed, leaving three from the original four, and only two of them are provided with catenary. The remaining track is the freight track, upon which you often see CP Rail consists these days, as they have trackage rights on the NY&A.
I took a fantrip once where a foamer bragged that he had hiked the NYCRR and had walked into and through the bridge anchor towers. That sounded like fun to me, but surely, with all of the traffic on the railroad, I would get arrested almost immediately! I don't advise this adventure for anyone.
KP :O)
.."Hell Gate," which is the name given to the straight between Randall's/Ward's Island and Long Island Sound...
I should have said, "..."Hell Gate," which is the name given to the straight [connecting] the East River and Long Island Sound and passing by Randall's/Ward's Island...
I should have said, "..."Hell Gate," which is the name given to the straight [connecting] the East River and Long Island Sound and passing by Randall's/Ward's Island...
Actually, you should have said: "...'Hell Gate,' which is the name of the strait - which is part of the East River - that passes alongside Randall's and Ward's Islands." The LI Sound doesn't begin until after the Throgs Neck Bridge.
And I didn't post this to nitpick your use of strait/straight, I don't care about that. Geography is important.
Hell Gate Bridge is technically a steel arch bridge. Overbuilt would be a good word to describe it. It is so strong it can hold something like 67 locomotives. You could run subway trains over it around the clock and it wouldn't even break a sweat. The arch was engineered so precisely that when the center section was lifted into place, the final adjustment needed to align the whole works was half an inch!
I guess they don't make them like that anymore, and that bridge was built back in the days before computers. Think about that.
"I guess they don't make them like that anymore, and that bridge was built back in the days before computers."
What about the Manhattan, William and Brooklyn Bridges? They don't make them like that anymore either.
N Broadway Line
Hi Folks,
Just a quick note to let everybody know that I've finally been able
to update many of the online track maps to reflect the 7/22/2001
changes here at www.nycsubway.org/maps/track .
I have updated several of the relevant Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn
maps. However where big and small versions exist of the same maps, I
have only uploaded the BIG versions for now.
I've NOT included any of the November 11th changes at this time
(the V train, 63rd St. official opening and cutback of the G).
These changes will happen a few weeks before the actual change.
Again, if anybody is interested in helping maintain or update these free online maps,
please contact by e-mail. It requires the use of Photoshop or similar pixel-level editing software.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Where in thy network may
I locate the rollsign bullet (icon)
for the V train?
At my e-mail address.
Why is it that the MTA schedules list the run from 168th to 59th as usually 21 minutes on the A express but only 19 minutes on the C local? And what is the real travel time?
You were looking at overnight, where the A runs local. The actual time for the A is 15 minutes according to the midday schedule.
Well, I work the both the A and C lines and I've timed them both. I've found that the average running time from 168th Street to Columbus Circle was 15 minutes for the A (via CPW exp) and 20 minutes for the C.
And the 1/9?
Has the MBTA retired the GP40's because there are none on the north side. All I see are F40's.
Keep looking, Ry, they're still there.
i saw 8621 at westcheter square i didnt catch the other cars
There are still about 8 sets of R29's running.
are they going to die to
Yes as soon as some more R142A's get put on the road. The way it looks they are in a rush to get more R142's on the road. So far the No.6 as of now has 21 operational trains.
Also this was something I over looked in the pick.
They now have special Train Operator Scrap jobs. There are about 12 slots.
6 for AM's (8AM to 4PM) 6 for PM's(4PM to 12AM) all start at E 180 Street.
i agree but 21 sets the jobs sound good
I just went to look at the IRT boards and didn' see these jobs. Are they a miscellaneous main shop add on or they attached to road utilities already in place?
They are under Miscellaneous and work trains.
yulp
Didn't the IRT pick get put off until 8-13?
That's what I had heard. Also if you wish to transfer from the B to A, you have until Friday to send in your G2 request to the Pick Office.
I'll double check the notice later.Maybe they made a mistake and meant B division since the V is scheduled for 11-11 requiring another pick to be conducted.
No, we're picking as of this moment. I think the pick go into effect on/or around the 13th. Ill check later today.
Although the "A" division is now picking, they will be picking again on the 13th.
As of 7/2/01 A Div. started picking for the summer and the pick goes into effect 8/5/01. This will only be in effect 3 mouths.
Also A Div. is picking again for the winter starting Aug. 13 2001. A Div is already getting ready for the winter pick and the summer pick didn't even start yet.
Yes I noticed. The B division will start picking on 9-17 which will include a pick for 2002 vacation.
I assume a "scrap job" means taking a train on its final run to get stripped?
If so, how many cars go on this "death trip" at once? A full train of 10 cars, right after rush hour is over? Or do they go through the IRT yards, selecting the most run-down cars?
what do you think about the r110a,r142,r142a,r143
give me your response
I briefly rode a R142 on the #2 between Penn Station and Times Square.
As much as I love the Redbirds, I was impressed with it even for only one stop.
well i rode the r142 maybe like 11 times now still going back for more
i rode the R110a 2 it was allright
the r142a is good to
I LOVE THEM ALL...
I'm all about new technology and trying out new things, BRING ON THE TECH CARS BABY!
My Views:
The R-110A aka R-130 aka New Tech Car - The R-110A is a great car with the exception of those annoying centerfacing and transverse seating arrangements, I'm all about centerfacers.
The R-110B aka R-131 aka New Tech Car - The R-110B is another great car, no real complaints, they just need to work on the door issues this car has.
The Bombardier R-142 aka Millennium Car - The R-142 needs some improvement, But overall a decent car.
The Kawasaki R-142A aka Millennium Car - ANOTHER BOMB ASS CAR BY KAWASAKI...KEEP BRINGING THEM ON...I Love this car! All Time Fav!!!
The Kawasaki R-143 aka Millennium Car - Car has yet to prove itself since it has not been in Revenue service yet.
Regards,
Trevor Logan aka T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
me to im all for trying new things too
i cant disaree
I kind of wanted to see transverse seating on the IRT, which was one of the thing I like about the R110A and 110B. I also would have liked rollsigns up front on the new cars. But I'll take the R142/A and R143 just as they are, center-facing seats and all. They are excellent cars.
well i like center folding too but it would be cool to transverse on one irt train
Well, I had been looking forward to the 2 and 5 trains getting new cars right from the start. When I first saw the R110A in 1993, I thought they were the first ten cars in a new fleet (of course they're not, I learned that later on). And then when I rode them, I thought they were the nicest NYC subway cars I ever rode. They didn't need those super-wide doors, though. They swallowed up too much room as did those closets at the end of the non-cab cars. They really should hold onto the R110A cars, maybe they can reconfigure them into two 4-car sets and put them on the 42nd Street Shuttle and use the other two cars for parts.
But after riding the Kawasaki R142A for the first time in August of last year, I liked them more than the R110A. They had more reasonably-sized doors and more seating and clearer route and destination signs. Plus, they're much quieter than other cars. I also think the R110A's front is a bit plain when compared to the R142's front. When I rode the Bombardier R142 for the first time last December, I liked that they had larger, rounder front windows and a brighter LED route sign. The R142's interior is a bit more plain with just a white space where the mini-mural appears on the R142A. But I think they're going to put the murals in the R142s too, because I saw them in cars 6526-30 and frames for them in cars 6516-20. But overall I enjoy riding both the R142s and R142As and I'm glad to see them entering service. Now whenever I ride the 2 or 6, I get an R142 in at least one direction. Bring on more of the 142s!
youre right to ive been on the r110a twice
the r110b once both great cars
ive been on the r142 11 times and counting
the r142a another great kawaski train been on that 6 times and counting
so me i m so crazed i waited half an hour just to get on one
not only the #2 the #5 too but with no annoucements
thanks r142man
I have yet to ride an R142 on the 5, but I did get the R110A operating as a 5 train once in May or June 1995, with the conductor making announcements. I also rode the R142/142A combo (6336-40 and 7211-15) on the 6. It's still easier to catch a new train on the 6 than the 2, becuase the 6 has more new trains in service and is a much shorter line than the 2. But that'll change with time.
By the way, I chose the handle R142 #2, to show that I was looking forward to the day that R142s would start running on my home line, the #2. That day has come.
i have had people reporting the r110a on the #5
i didnt get a chance to ride ther142/r142a combo i walk on the platform at 34street as soon as the chimes and it sounded weird.why did the ta do that.kawasaki/bombardier ilove #2 line its my home line too
ps i think #2 line has 10 or 11 sets the rest at unionport yard,180 inspection shop or 207st
the #6 21 sets and then some
r142man
I to am a fan of all the new cars, including the r143 which I have not ridden yet. But look foward to riding, The r110A shocked me when I first rode it. To me it was pretty advanced considering what was riding around on New York City Transit rails. The r110b, not a bad train nothing to write home about, but good. The r142a was the first r142 series train that I rode on as far as that series goes, love em.
The r142, love that one too. Over all not bad progress the t/a is making.
cant disagree
Saw a few posts asking this question, so here it is, straight from the July ERA Bulletin:
Lines Types Of Cars
#1/#9 340 R62A
#2 370 R142
#3 290 R142
#4 315 R62, 70 R62A (all single units), 40 R142A
#5 370 R142
#6 480 R142A
#7 414 R62A (includes 44 single units)
S 10 R62A (all single units) from the #4
Hope this helps.
thankyou some says something about the new cars on the #3
whats going to happen to the rest of the r142a option order
the option order was really for the 7 line once all the deadbirds are gone.
but for what it looks like, no r142's will be coming to the 7 for now.
i dont know whats going to happen. they might probably take them and expand thier service on the other lines that ae getting r142's.
no r142s wont be coming to the#7 because its not that easy to get to 180streetyard
who said the r142s was going to the #7
How can the #3 handle 10 car trains, or are there going to be 4 car sets of R142's ?
This has been gone over on this board several times, most recently in the past day or two.
The constraint on train length on the #3 line is the length of SOME of the layup tracks in 148th Street (Lenox) Yard. The solution is to layup as many 10-car #3 trains as can fit at 148th Street Yard, with the remainder to go somewhere else, such as 137th Street Yard (underground on the #1/#9 line) or E. 180th Street Yard. The weekday schedule effective August 5 has several #3 trains starting their days coming out of E. 180th Street Yard and going into service at 96th Street (and discharging their passengers northbound at 96th Street and running light back to E. 180th Street Yard at the end of their days). With the new cars freeing up "Redbirds," after a couple of other service enhancements are made, the #3 line is scheduled to get 10-car trains.
David
Why don't they use Livonia Yard in Brooklyn? That yard should be able to handle 10-car trains as far as I know. Also why aren't they making those 3 trains coming out of 180th Street Yard run light to 96th Street? Why won't they let them carry passengers between 180th and 96th? Those light-running 3 trains are going to foul up 2 and 5 service, especially during rush hours. When I first heard that some 3 trains were going to originate at East 180th St, I thought it might be interesting. But now that I hear they're going to only run without passengers from 180th to 96th, I don't like it at all. What's the point in running some 3 trains from 180th St Yard all the way to 96th Street without passengers? It's certainly not going to help overcrowded 2 train.
They DO use Livonia Yard, but since the line wakes up early at both ends, trains need to be stored at both ends.
As to why the trains are running light, I'll have to check again during the week (if I remember to do it!), as I could be mistaken (I'm doing this from memory).
David
You'd think they'd go into sevice at least at 135th (where the 3 normally runs)
I was wrong. The #3 trains scheduled to come out of E. 180th Street Yard are to run in service from E. 180th Street. However, when they return to E. 180th Street in the evening, they discharge their passengers at 96th Street and run light from that point as I had previously stated.
David
good point
If they do it right, they will run the light #3's by the centre track between 149th Street-3rd Avenue and East 180th Street. This way regular local service isn't impacted.
wayne
Since the #3 line shuts down on the midnite, I would assume that those AM put-in's from E.180th St. yard are scheduled long before the height of the AM rush so the #2 & #5 service would not be negatively impacted. The can come "down the middle" lite. We will have to wait patiently till the work programs are viewed by the operating personel to get the specific times.
Bill, you are right. These jobs are early AM jobs.
Interesting point since I've only seen 9 car trains on the #3 line in my own experience. Is there any portion of the #3 route that can't handle 10 car trains?
BMTJeff
For the BILLION-AND-EIGHTH TIME:
The ONLY area of the #3 line that cannot handle 10-car trains is part of 148th Street Yard -- SOME of the tracks there cannot handle 10-car trains. This problem will be handled by starting some #3 trains on other lines (White Plains Road and/or Broadway) in the morning and laying them up there in the evening. The 145th Street-Lenox Avenue station can handle 10-car trains, with 5 cars opening and 5 cars not opening.
Operating #3 trains less than 10 cars in length has been a policy decision, one that was reinforced in recent years by keeping the fleet at a level insufficient to run anything longer than 9 cars on the #3 line. That will be fixed soon.
Can we please move on now?
David
Some of us do go on vacation for 2 weeks, don't keep threads more than a couple of days, and have a life other than reading every damned thread that's here all day.
I posted an answer to the same question, WITHIN THIS SAME THREAD(!), on July 14 at 11:37 PM, in response to a post made by "Joe V" (the same guy whose post I'm responding to now) at 8:23 PM on that same day.
One would think that someone who is interested enough in a thread to post a response would be interested enough in it to read the responses to his or her post, especially with the whole chain of events taking place in a span of a few hours over the past 36 hours (not two weeks ago).
And by the way, I do have a life. In fact, to paraphrase the U.S. Army, I get more done by 9 AM than most people do all day.
David
I get more done by 9 AM than most people do all day.
This is helped in large part by the fact that I am a teenager on vacation and I make a point of doing as little as possible for as much of the day as possible.
Dan
Congratulations.
How many cars will the 7 run once they get r62a's? will they still run 11 cars?
Depends if they keep single car units or not. It's possible that they'll link up 5 car units, and have a gaggle of singles laying around.
You'll see eventually. Enjoy the Redbirds while you can, you've got more than enough time for the 62A's.
Yep. That's why the #3 will contribute some of its cars. They are singles and will permit 11 car trains.
Are you 100% positive that #3 trains stopping at 145st northbound will not block southbound #2 trains?
>>Are you 100% positive that #3 trains stopping at 145st northbound will not block southbound #2 trains?<<
No, they will not. The 3 is getting R-142s. I think that that pretty much answers that.
The whole thing about this that gets to me is that the 3 has Liviona yard, and unless nearly all of the Lennox yard tracks are too short then the 3 should be able to run 10 car trains. If that's too much, 137th could handle 3 trains. I'd have a 3 leave from 137th going express to 96th. Once it got to New Lots, I'd have them re-sign as headed for 148th. When it was time to go back to sleep, I'd have them re-sign as 137th st. again and run express from 96th to 137th.
Can we make a bet please? I bet that the 3 will retain R62As. Some singles will leave for the 7 while some 5-car sets come to take it's place. That and Livonia and 148 Street/Lenox Yard aren't "certified" to maintain R142s/R142As. That'd mean unecessary mileage rolled up for the trip to East 180 Street and or Westchester and or 239 Street. I'm not sure and I've never done the math to see if there are enough new cars for the 2, 5, and 6 and perhaps the 3.
Whaddaya know? There are 680 R142s to come and 400 R142As to come. R142As will be shopped at Westchester Yard so that's out of the question for the 3 Line. The 2 Line needs 310 cars for AM rush and the 5 needs 320 for AM rush. That's 630 cars. 50 cars left over. The 3 line now uses 216 cars for the AM rush and these are 9 car trains. 10 car trains would need 240 cars. Hmmm... needs 240 cars, 50 cars left. Sorry, the 3 Line isn't getting the R142s till the option orders are excercised.
Do you know how to count?
If you added up the R-142 and R-142A totals, it adds up to enough to include the initial order, the change order and the option order. The MTA will obviously get all of these. They don't want any more Repulsive Rustvultures left over (thank god).
>>Sorry, the 3 Line isn't getting the R142s till the option orders are excercised.<<
options have already been excercised. C'mon man. Read the original post in this thread.
I'm suprised they did excercise them considering the Standard order isn't completely delivered yet.
But eventually Livonia Yard will have to be R142 certified. Lets put it like this: I would not be surprise if the 3 is/isnt R142's. And Lenox Yard is just a storage yard. No major work is done there.
"For the BILLION-AND-EIGHTH TIME:
The ONLY area of the #3 line that cannot handle 10-car trains is part of 148th Street Yard -- SOME of the tracks there cannot handle 10-car trains. This problem will be handled by starting some #3 trains on other lines (White Plains Road and/or Broadway) in the morning and laying them up there in the evening. The 145th Street-Lenox Avenue station can handle 10-car trains, with 5 cars opening and 5 cars not opening.
Operating #3 trains less than 10 cars in length has been a policy decision, one that was reinforced in recent years by keeping the fleet at a level insufficient to run anything longer than 9 cars on the #3 line. That will be fixed soon."
Thank god this is the #3 and not the #2 line. Just picture a 9 car #2 train running in the Bronx. Forget I even asked the question.
N Bwy
Will they have the room to extend the some of the tracks the requsite length so that the #3 line will be able to handle 10 car trains?
BMTJeff
I doubt it. The yard and adjacent station are at street level, and the pesky street gets in the way.
Are there going to be some R-142s arrganged in sets of four?
BMTJeff
No. Apparently, the tracks that are only nine cars long won't be used. Trains will be stored elsewhere. All 3 trains will be ten cars long.
I went out to East New York today to ride the wonderful curve the L train takes when it has to terminate on the lower level on the J tracks, and also rode over to Sutter Ave. on the L to check the work they've been doing. At the point where the L train takes the big turn just north of Sutter, where it passes over Pitkin, the old Fulton El Ironwork has really been changed. All the trackways are gone. Unfortunately, I didn't bring my camera. I can see they're really getting ready to straighten that section of the L line and eliminate the curve. Now, is the TA doing it so they can implement the new automated signal system, or are they doing it to sell off the air rights the Northbound L takes. Keep in mind the TA will be able to elimate the entire Northbound El from Sutter to Atlantic.
I went out to East New York today to ride the wonderful curve the L train takes when it has to terminate on the lower level on the J tracks, and also rode over to Sutter Ave. on the L to check the work they've been doing. At the point where the L train takes the big turn just north of Sutter, where it passes over Pitkin, the old Fulton El Ironwork has really been changed. All the trackways are gone. Unfortunately, I didn't bring my camera. I can see they're really getting ready to straighten that section of the L line and eliminate the curve. Now, is the TA doing it so they can implement the new automated signal system, or are they doing it to sell off the air rights the Northbound L takes. Keep in mind the TA will be able to elimate the entire Northbound El from Sutter to Atlantic.
I would imagine that the elimination of the n/b el structure is related to the new signalling system rather than the sale of air rights. It's not the sort of area where's there is crying need for more developable real estate with high prices.
cool
If the new signalling system can't handle turns, then it's not a very good system.
It has JACK SQUAT to do with the signalling system. Maybe it's an excuse the TA needs, but all of that extra steelwork is useless. It's about time this was done.
If you don't deal with the retirement of the redbirds you will be looking at this! Or this!
What is that
the cab of a train that doesn't have a railfan window.
thats right a genuine R-142 ARMIDILLO !! ..........no railfan window no NOTHING just a lot of B.S. !! lol !!
...with a boot stain here and there...
whew ! very boooooring !! .........lol !!
From what city? Tokyo? Hong-Kong?
--Mark
The upper one Singapore the bottom one bangkok.
I believe I took both of those pictures :-)
looks ghetto
For something completely different, click here for an example of a railfan window (Market-Frankford El approaching 46th Street).
right right
to chuchubob@yahoo.com
thank you for the wonderful picture ! & this is what it is all about folks! having fun enjoying yourself riding a railfan window
equipped subway car in philadelphia! ( like i did with the almond joys back in 1975 wooooooopppppeeeeeeee hooooooorrrraaay !!
man life is to short not to have fun doing this .....lol!!
whay didnt they do this with the broad street ( orange line ) @ no railfan window .......sigh ....!!!!
Bob, that Market -Fkd, M-4 picture is super!
Does SEPTA keep records like MDBF on their vechicles?
I guess these girls are doing pretty well. And , oh yes ,love the railfan window (Sallamallah). It's possible with the camera system
that sees both sides of the train, all subway cars could be built
like the M-4's , with single cabs & railfan windows!!!
Chuck Greene
The First photo looks like going to some Killing Chamber.
yep !! thats what you will see !! NOTHING AT ALL !! .............got that right sir !! ( thanks for the non-view ) !!!
When I posted my future Q page,some people got a wrong message so here are the corrections
1.I was talking about when the Bridge construction will be over in 2004
2.I know where the Q terminates.
3Ive read the papers.
I suggest you read this page twice.
>I suggest you read this page twice.
I read this page twice... still don't know
what future Q page you're talking aboot.
The thread is titled "the future Q"
Ther is stil some confusions about my pages so heres the thing
I WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN THE MANHATTHAN BRIDGE CONSTRUCTION IS OVER IN 2004.
I wasn't talking about whtis gonna happen on the 22.OK
American pig:I don't want to start a feud with you ok so please STOP with the insults ok.
Everyoe else:Please stop responding to the future Q page ok. thank you
If you want to talk about what will happen in 2004, I still don't think the Q will use Queens Boulevard. It will stay on Broadway, and a Sixth Avenue service will serve the 63rd Street Tunnel, otherwise 57/6 would be skipped.
[If you want to talk about what will happen in 2004, I still don't think the Q will use Queens Boulevard. It will stay on Broadway, and a Sixth Avenue service will serve the 63rd Street Tunnel, otherwise 57/6 would be skipped.]
Here's the REAL DEAL:
There's NO SUCH THING as "it will" or "it won't" (at last not now) because that decision has not, not, N-O-T been made yet.
Wait until 2004, then speculate.
Logic dictates this. The 63rd. St tunnel was not designed to funnel Broadway trains to Queens. Extending the Broadway Q north of 57th won't happen until the 2nd Ave. stubway is built, which will probably be around the time the R143's are retired.
what stations need to be renovated?
r142man
jay
Are you a pollster?
If so,...... WHERE HAVE U BEEN ALL THIS TIME!?!?!?
:x
I don't know, why don't you ask about the MTA? www.mta.nyc.ny.us and click on Procurement, there you will find what stations are getting changes!!!
Actually, he would be better off going to the Capital Program page; there they list which stations will be getting rehabs in 2001-2004.
wayne
All of them.;-)
i heard that the TA will change the r62 seats and replace them with the deadbird seats. is this true?? also i know that the floor would be changed before they come to the 7 line
why would they do that
even i dont like the damn bucketseats i like bench seats
The only cosmetic work currently underway on the R-62 and R-62A fleets (besides window replacement, which happens as a matter of course -- though far less frequently than many people would like) is floor replacement. As to the future, I know of no plans to do any cosmetic work on the cars.
David
Floor replacement, yes. If they do plan on changing the seats, they will be like the ones in 1587-1590.
BTW: There is also a chance the transverse cabs will be de-transversified for use on the #7.
what does that mean? why will no transeverse cab be in the 7? by the way, how is a transeverse cab?
how is a transeverse cab?
Um, you're going to have to phrase that a bit more clearly.
Dan
I think you have heard someone's wishful thinking and not something rooted in fact. The seating on the redbirds is mounted on a frame which supports it. The seating on the R-62/R-62A is mounted differently and the two would not be compatible.
I've been on a Kawasaki R62 car on the 4 line that had bench seating as opposed to bucket seating. Is this something new or has anyone seen this before? Unfortunately I didn't get the car number as usual.
Shawn.
There are 5 (IIRC) of those cars...it was an experiment
Peace,
ANDEE
Only 4 cars have the bench seating. 1587-90.
i think the ta should keep at least one bird left on rails and not a work train what do you think
they should keep one in flushing meadow park, which was the worlds fair in 1964, where across is shea stadium built and opened in 1964 and the worldfair cars that was made in 1964
exactly
r142man
jay
And keep stocking parts for an 10 old dinasaurs till when? They'll probably need to be custom built and ordered.
I think 2 cars of each class for (10 cars) Nostalgia trains, unless everyone is so naiive as to think the 75 year old Lo-V's will be road-worthy forever, at which point we'll have nothing. Remember also that to the X-Geners, the Redbirds are the old cars, the Lo-Vs (and Standards, Triplexes, R1-9) mean nothing.
good idea
For the years that these tains have served us and our city, the redbirds have been and will always be the best cars NYC has ever had
For the years that these tains have served us and our city, the redbirds have been and will always be the best cars NYC has ever had
That is total BULLSHIT. Even of all cars currently in service, the R-32 wins hands down on all counts (I actually prefer the R-46).
However if you go all time, you can't mess with anything that the BMT put forward. The Triplexes of 1927 were more advanced than that 1950s-1960s crap the TA doled out, especially the Redbirds.
That's if we ignore the multisections and dismiss them as experimentals like the R-11 (another good, innovative car) or R-110, otherwise the R-142 has competition.
The only thing the Repulsive Rustbirds have a win over is the R-16 (or so I've heard).
any TRANSVERSE CAB equipped subway car is almighty GOD with you !! .....lol !!!
Read my post to Chuchubob earlier on this board. If all subway cars
could use the camera system that allows the T/O to sit in a single cab
and view both sides of the train, we could have our railfan window back. The railfan window on the Philly M-4's wins hands down!
Sallam , why don't you come to Philly and enjoy the rid eon our railfanwindow equipped M-4's?
Chuck Greene
good idea i will do just that one day soon !! ...lol !! i remembner the 1975 almond joys !!! lol!!
woooooppppeeeee!!!
Hey dumbass, are the Triplexes, R-11s or R-32s transverse cab equipped?
And I don't worship subway cars. As Train Dude has said, they're just machines.
Hey dumbass, { american pig, the other white meat } are the Triplexes, R-11s or R-32s transverse cab equipped?
@ no i did not !!...... And I don't worship subway cars......only any transverse cab equipped subway car !!! LOL !!
Hey dumbass, { american pig, the other white meat } are the Triplexes, R-11s or R-32s transverse cab equipped?
@ no i did not !!...... And I don't worship subway cars......only any transverse cab equipped subway car !!! LOL !!
Maybe, shit-for-brains, you can learn how to quote other people's writing. Maybe I should sue you for misusing what I say?
???????????????.......................................................................!
??????Hey dumbass, are the Triplexes, R-11s or R-32s transverse cab equipped??????????
@ clam down nut , i did not say that however all subway cars you LOVE
are transverse cab (s) equipped !! .........lmao !!! ........lol...!!!!
Please guys, no fighting. We are railfans here, and share in the enjoyment of the rails and how they get us from place to place.
Yo, this is going to be like the last flame I do against you. But seriously man, shut up, no one wants to hear about your transverse cab crap...Frankly, I don't really GIVE A CRAP if the whole system goes transverse cab, because they still have a freakin window and if you are smart and ride outdoors, you can still see out the window...And 9 times out of 10, unless you have a biatch as a T/O, they'll let you go in the cab...So I leave you with this remark Salaam, if you are really that desperate for half cabs, go break into a transverse cab and get the T/O mad, and get arrested and we'll all be happy (or at least I will be) and you'll be in jail for some time...Please shut up about the railfan window, is it nice to have? YES! Is it worth talking about losing it every day, NO...I'm no moderator, but I know when to say STFU already...Thank you, and have a good night, or a good afternoon for your PST butt...
If they were such garbage how did they last over 40 years.
You can ask yourself that question if you're over 40, or when you will be.
Sorry, that was cruel.
Anyway, the REPULSIVES should have been gone with the R-30s 10 years ago, however I guess finances got in the way.
Finances didn't get in the way of getting rid of the Multis, or the Triplexes. I guess that all good things have to end early, but horror shows like the Redbirds live on.
i am talking about IRT cars. yea i know that the r32's are good cars. but once the r32's came out, afew years later the r38's came out. 2-3 years later the r40's came out, 2-3 years later the r42's came out and 2-3 years later the r44/46's came out. so the BMT had like 5 different new trains by the 80's. the IRT did not. 1964 was the last time irt got new trains. next was the r62's which came in the 80's.
You said NYC.
Even if you mean IRT, the R-62s and R-142s are better, and for that matter, so are the Low-Vs.
The Redbirds are the nadir of subway car design. Newer is better and older is better.
I must say first off, that all of my experience of the older cars which I've touted is from seeing them at the museum, in pictures, or reading about others' experience of them.
a guess youre right in a sense
Ignore the stupid metal paneling and I love the R-62/a. It reminds me a lot of the Bombardier push-pulls. And the nice, fast door motors, door holders get circulation cut off for a few seconds as punishment for their crime...
Pigs I thought that the R17, R21 and R22 models were less comfortable than the R26/28/29/33/36 (Redbirds). The R17 and R21 (which were cousins) used to bounce and sway mercilessly. If you got an R17 as lead motor (and these cars were frisky), or a solid train of them, you'd be rocking and rolling all over the place. These cars (except for a few prototypes) were never A/Cd, and were miserable in the summer. At least they retrofitted the Redbirds with (half-assed) A/C. The 50s IRT cars never had that luxury. Hottest cars? The R22 of course. Caked with soot too.
Aside from the artwork and the digital announcements, is there really anything to like about the cold, clinical R142/R142A? I feel like I'm sitting in a doctor's examining room when I'm on them! They could of
And they should have resurrected the BMT Multi design for at least one carfleet.
wayne
It seemed to me as though the R-17s, for whatever reason, never got as hot as the R-21/22s during the summer. But back in the 1970s, both were still cooler than those un-air conditioned Slants (sorry Wayne) that ran on the E/F lines. Whenever one came into the station during the summer, it was mandatory to scan the plate numbers as they passed to find a car numbered 4350-4449 if you wanted to get out alive with you clothes in relatively dry conditon.
2 years after the r32s came the 38s, 1 year later the 40s, 3 years later the 44s, 2 years later the 46s, and then a 10 year wait for the 68s
WHAT! no r42s in your world? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That was dumb of me
You're not dumb. So what if you forgot? Nobody's going to kill you.
You're not dumb. So what if you forgot? Nobody's going to kill you.
Except maybe for those crazies (cough-Mitch45-cough) with rust in their brains who expect things to be perfect.
With a name like LINCOLN you're more than excused. What a handle!!!
Finances kept a lot of beloved [to the railfans like myself] equipment around years past their planned economic lives.You could bring up my beloved old IRT fleet that hung on for years and years, the "steam" road commuter MU's, the BMT standards, take your pick. Now the redbirds (the best of them, they were better than the pre R26 ones) are in that category but the time has come.
Whether train personnel or passengers few people missed any of them when they were gone except for people like myself and many other railfans in the same ranks.
I wouldn't mind having another chance to ride them...I hated them when they were knew only because they spelled the end of the things dear to me but that's life. They did a good job and even if they were a mess even by 1970 due to poor maintenance and some have topped the 40 year mark guess it has to be. We all have our favorites..the R32 was basically the R27/30 in stainless steel..etc etc.
Life goes on ...
Which is why it's such a shame the Triplexes were slaughtered when they could have lasted at least another 10 years.
How can any railfan talk about the Redbirds? How can anyone compare them to the 75 foot trash? I agree that the R-32/38s are the best B division cars, but the Redbirds have served us for so long. When I think of IRT, A Division, I think of my beloved Redbirds. When they're gone, a part of my childhood and my happy railfanning memories will be gone, too.
How can any railfan talk about the Redbirds?
I can say the same thing about you, how can any railfan talk [badly] about the 75-footers. They are railcars too, and a lot better than that crimson trash.
How can anyone compare them to the 75 foot trash? I agree that the R-32/38s are the best B division cars, but the Redbirds have served us for so long.
Longevity means jack squat. The Dark Ages lasted a millennium, that doesn't make them good.
The Redbirds are a perfect "middle age." The BMT cars were the Roman Empire, the 50s-60s crap were the middle ages, the 80s were the Renaissance and the R-142s are the cars of the age of exploration. It can only get better than this. It's not difficult to be better than the Redbirds. A three legged, lame horse is better than the Redbirds.
In case you ask, the R-44s and R-46s were Gothic Architecture. Widely reviled with its introduction, they were derisively associated with the tribes that destroyed the Roman Empire, but it revolutionized architecture. The R-44 and R-46s were at first unreliable, but they (at least the R-46) are reliable now. It also taught the MTA an important lesson about testing.
no 2 ways bout' it all non railfan window equipped subway cars are the ones YOU LOVE the most !!! he he he he ...lol !!
i agree with you there !!!
It’s interesting that the oldest Redbirds up to scrapping (the R26’s) were getting close to the age of the oldest IND R1-9 units at the time those warhorses were finally retired back in 1977. But now, we truly see the end of an era. Not to mention that, with T.O.’s cabs taking up entire space, you can no longer get an up-close view from the front (or the back), with the exception of a very small few R62A’s (as on the #3).
thats right !! no more railfan window !! hope that makes you all happy !! ...........................ugh ..............throw up!!!!
Why don't you rent scooba gear and go under water? It would be a great railfan adventure.
-Stef
Actually we do have a page of r-142s UNDER WATER !! lol !!......he he he he he he he ...
......Indeed we do!
But Can you handle NO railfan window?
Oh no ... not again ....
--Mark
It's great to see thread titles such as "Farewell Redbirds." Just a scant few weeks ago this seemed an impossibility.
Thnaks MTA, you're going MY way.
Think god those Redbirds are going. b/c I HATE THEM! Why I hate them. b/c sometimes the lights gos out and the Redbirds have BAD A/C witch breaks too much! And they run like as you in a SHAKER or something. So that's why I am saying to the MTA is the right move and WAY TO GO MTA! You made me HAPPY :)
In some ways I'm glad to see that the Redbirds are going the way of the dinosaur. They might of been state of the art when they were placed into service. Now they're just old worn out subway cars that need to be retired. However some should be saved as museum cars.
BMTJeff
I felt the same way about the R-7/9s with the horrid MTA paint jobs on the Eastern Division back in the mid-1970s that a lot of people feel today about the `Birds, but I was sad to see the R-1/4s go with their original colors and wicker/redy vinyl padded seats.
Still, given the other threads on the board about the crappy 1/9 service and the crowds on the No. 4 train, keeping the best 100 to 200 trains for rush hour put-ins for a couple more years couldn't hurt the IRT any.
They did that for several years with the R1/9's (which is why they were even available for the eastern division) long after they were slated to die. As the R32's and 38's came in, that was to be the death march once the 42's and 44's came in their days were numbered. But they still found their way in to RO/Only service on the IND main lines for several years beyond. And yeah, that paint job was horrible even if the cars themselves were in better shape than the older ones.
keeping the best 100 to 200 trains for rush hour put-ins for a couple more years couldn't hurt the IRT any.
Uneccessary, there will be more R-142s than there are Redbirds.
So long as the number of avilable cars goes up once the full order is delivered, fine. I just don't want to see the IRT hit with the "Son of the R-30 Crisis" a few years down the pike.
And even with the added cars, the MTA is mothballing a number of R-Edbirds.
Although I'm glad to see that the Redbirds will be disappearing soon they should keep just a few trains of them until they're sure that the R-142 and R-142A subway cars have all of the bugs worked out of them.
#3 West End Jeff
They should keep 3-train sets of redbirds in prime operating condition !!!**++** J u s t F o r T h e H e l l O f I t **++**!!!
Just think of all the spare parts they'll have when the majority of redbirds are scrapped! Enough parts to last 50 years!
They might of been state of the art when they were placed into service.
Thats one thing they were not - The BMT Standards, Triplexes, Multis, and Bluebirds were state of the art when first placed into service. The R-series redbirds were just basic subway cars - not "state of the art" at all. Older BMT equipment had more and better features many years earlier.
BMT-Lines
Thats one thing they were not - The BMT Standards, Triplexes, Multis, and Bluebirds were state of the art when first placed into service. The R-series redbirds were just basic subway cars - not "state of the art" at all. Older BMT equipment had more and better features many years earlier.
We didn't catch up until the R-142 to the 1930s technology of the BMT!
I beg to differ, the stainless steel R 32s will have that distinction. Too bad the R 26s on up weren't built the same way.
All together now:
Goodbye, Redbirds,
Goodbye, Redbirds,
Goodbye, Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now.
The rest of you can chime in with:
Pick a little, talk a little, pick a little, talk a little,
Cheep-cheep-cheep, talk a lot, pick a little more.
Repeat ad nauseaum.
"I hope you had the time of your life".
Yep. That's right buddy 'o! After 40 years of successful service, the time has come for Redbirds to retire. As much as we want them in service, it's time to move on... I guess.
What happened to the 'Purchasing a Redbird' program started in this SubTalk?
Also, if ANYONE comes across a Redbird (I forgot the car-type, but it's R26-29) numbered #9119, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!
If you ever ride on it, you'll see why the Redbirds are not yet ready to be scrapped!
Wow! What an experience. Just in case, I've last seen it and ridden it on the #2 line, while riding it with my dad from Bergen St. Brooklyn to 34 St. Penn Sta. arriving at around 12:40AM.
That Redbird car is the best! Be sure to immediately report to me about it if anyone sees it!
Railfan Pete.
The #6 line boasts another such a gem, I think it is #8642-8643; both these Redbirds are rust-free and in near-mint condition.
wayne
Makes you wonder how much Bondo there is under that red paint.
see u this fall with my videocamera & digital still taking many still of them as well ...
I want to know where on the internet can I get the results for the recent Subway service test ? I will appreciate an answer with a link or a website address.
Thanks
F - Train/Culver Express
www.straphangers.org
Thanks !
F Train/Culver Express
Took the 10:28am train out of Sea Cliff today. Because it was only a shuttle to Mineola (due to tie replacement on the ML)it wasonly three cars, so the front car was open and so was the cab door. I finally got a front window view of the bi-levels. The cab is definately more spacious than the M-1's, with more lights and controls, plus a beeping ASC. I changed to an electric MU at Mineola which was quite crowded. We made a stop at Merillion, then we switched to the E/B track after that and the next stop was Jamaica. We managed to go the usual speed. It's amazing all the work that was done. There were concrete ties on the two northernmost tracks almost all the way to Jamaica. The track laying machine was seen laying, also a long cargo train pulled by old diesels that had the old wooden ties as well as the new ones. Alot of stuff to check out around Jamaica, lots of workers, hyrailers and the TLM.
Pretty fast ride into Penn, but we were running about 10 minutes late since it was really slow right before Jamaica, plus we were held for the Flatbush. On 6th ave there are track workers on the express tracks just south of 34th. Perhaps they are "getting things ready" for the inevitable closing of the dash. :-(
Going back I took the R but as usual Queens Blvd didn't dissapoint me. There was train stuck ahead of us (another R) after 67th. So after sitting at 67th for a few I got out and walked to Woodside to catch the 7. It's not that short of a walk either. I think I need a little buzzer to remind me NOT to ride Queens Blvd on the weekend. Well at least I got to ride an R32 R through the 60th street tube. :-)
Has anybody planned a farewell trip for the Manny B north side tracks?
Friday would be the last day of any Q service across the bridge and in the dash, so that would be the day to get your last kicks in the dash from the front window.
Does the Q run any stock that has a front window, ie non-R68?
John
Right now, the Q runs R-40's, which do have railfan windows. (Last week there were one or two R-32 trainsets running. I don't know if they're still out this week.)
In a week, who knows?
Currently Q trains are R40 Slants with a nice front window. Occasionally you may see an R32.
The "Q" runs almost 100% SLANT R40 which, as everybody knows have the best railfan windows in the entire system. AND THE WORST SEATS!
Oh well, if you're railfanning on a Slant, who needs to sit!
wayne
The Redbirds have the best railfan windows for one very simple reason:
On every other car class (that has a railfan window at all), one person can stand at the window and hold onto the latch for support. Anyone else who wants to look out has to stand unsupported or has to back up to the vertical pole -- the overhead handholds are way off to the side. On the Redbirds, the straps swing in far enough to allow their holders views out the window.
The R40's has long windows on the doors, so I assume they are better. Especially for very young children. Just an opinion.
N Bwy
The long, narrow windows are good for children but bad if two adults both want to look out.
I see your point David.
N bwy
Heh...not quite so bad as you think.
Riding the Q with GreenSignL (who is 6' 4", I am 5'5") he just looked over my head, ducking a bit so he could get the full view. As long as your railfan buddy is significantly taller or shorter then you can't lose.
Dan
True. But there's still the problem of what to hold onto.
Actually the positive thing about being short (5'2) for me is being able to be the closest to the front window.
And if you stand still enough I won't need to bring my tripod :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My grandson has enjoyed many rides at that window !
Mr t__:^)
There should be straps on all subway cars. They are far more comfortable to hold on to and it's easier to keep your balance.
I agree, but I have a feeling we're in the minority here.
What's wrong with providing both options, like on buses?
I like the straps better, too -- at least the ones on the R-26 trains and up (the R-10/12/14/15 straps were desinged for 3-year-old sized hands and the R-16 through R-22 straps were also awkward) -- but theoretically, the bars allow more people to get handholds than the straps do, assuming people not standing right next to the bar can get their arms over or in between other people to get there.
"AND THE WORST SEATS!"
Where did you get that from? The Seats are wider than most train cars, so I assume they are the best.
N Bwy
They're flat as a freakin board, no ass groove.
ok. at least you can spread out a little more.
N bwy
Yes, I will agree with you wholeheartedly on the width of the seats, but they are very hard on the lower back due to the angle of the seat to the back. R40Ms have the same problem.
Here, compare this way: find a "J", "L", "M" or "Z" train that is mixed R40M and R42. You can tell by the corrugations on the sides; R40Ms are closer together. The seats in the R42 are properly angled; those in the R40M will be flat and uncomfortable. This has been a problem with the R40 and R40M since day one.
wayne
Why wasn't this fixed in GOH?
(Were any of the seats replaced in GOH?)
I think it has to do with the seat frame the R-40/40Ms came with -- the top back of the seat is shorter than other cars, and the bottom may also extend out less than others, which would have limited what type of modification they could have put into the seat frame.
Learn something new everyday... But as far as I'm concerned, I have no problems with the seats.
N Bwy
The Q is a railfan's dream, one of the only two lines you are guaranteed a railfan window. The other is the 7. The C is a pretty safe bet, but formerly used to have a slight chance of getting the R-110B on the 10:01 AM out of 168 and its return out of euclid between 11:20 and 11:30.
There are guaranteed railfan windows on all the Eastern Division lines. There's a near-guarantee on the 5; if you get one of the few R-62A trainsets, just wait for the next one.
Hey don't forget our Eastern Division - where the J, M, and Z run R40M and R42 cars, all with railfan windows, and also on the L you will find the same Slant R40 you see on the Q, along with R40M and R42s.
You can also get a REAL GOOD railfan window experience on the A if you get an R38.
wayne
The R110B hasn't been in service for quite some time.
Which is why I said formerly.
I hope it comes back soon... All 9 cars worth (even if they're not on the same train).
I plan to catch the last northbound D, but I have to find out what time exactly it leaves. I just hope they don't have me working either then, or eary the next morining, since this is will be the weekend I'm finished with training (I'm supposed to be available to the crew office the 23rd, but if they're changing my RDO's it could be as early as Sat. night (Sun. midnight tour). But if they do, then give me that last D job! (bet the T/O who has it will make sure not to be out that night)
For a minute I thought you were talking about the A/B standards coming out of retirement :)
--Mark
I keep reading and re-reading the brochure and checking the website.
Who said that Friday was the last day for the Q's on the bridge?
From what I can see all that will happen is that they will be running on the south side of the bridge at all times starting Sunday.
If someone knows officially otherwise, please let me know.
Friday is the last day for Q's on the north side of the bridge.
Friday is also the last day for Q's in the dash, for those who care.
You're right, beginning on Sunday, the Q will run via Broadway and the south side of the bridge.
Hi all,
I wanted to double check if whether or not the M is still going to Bay Pkwy during rush hours when W takes over the B on July 22nd? The brochure I got from Peggy does not mention anything about the M.
TIA
P.S. Look for the updated subway map for this site on or before 7/22
Cheers,
Michael Adler
The M is unchanged. People wanted it to go to Bay Pkwy middays, but no go.
The M is unchanged. People wanted it to go to Bay Pkwy middays as well, but no go.
Bring the M Back to Stillwell after Restoration/Destruction/Reconstruction
Is the M gonna run to Bay parkway on the 23?
Yes, rush hours, as always.
I think another reason for them not agreeing to do it middays was because of all the Willy B rehab work. As it is, the last M to Bay Parkway never reaches Manhattan, or when it does it short turns at Broad st.
Bring it back to Stillwell during the Restoration/Destruction/Reconstruction when the West End is the only service that goes there, yet it goes no further than Pacific or 36th.
Hey Eric, tell me this. Is the terminal for the M (Metropolitan Avenue) an elevated or a subway station? I haven't ridden the M so I don't know.
I'm not Eric, but it's at street level, like a handful of other terminal stations.
Hypothetically speaking, what if the MTA decided to launch a cable channel which was devoted to subways and buses, the Long Island Rail Road, and MetroNorth Rail Road? It would have stories and features about the subways and buses, inform the public on the latest service diversions, and give updates on the latest mass transit reports.
Would you watch it? Why or why not?
Drool... yah! Then I'll get cable.
You mean that you DON'T have cable? Not even an illegal box?
Daaaaaaamn, get wit the game!
You mean that you DON'T have cable? Not even an illegal box?
Daaaaaaamn, get wit the game!
Cablevision is the essence of evil. Those fucking bastards REQUIRE that one lease their damn cable box, don't offer digital cable or compatibility with cable-ready TV sets and charge money for the absolute simplest features (you have to pay a monthly subscription fee to set a timer to record or watch something).
If broadcast isn't enough for you, get a satellite dish. It's cheaper. And you can get one with a DVR. Try using a DVR when the cable company forces you to use their converter.
Cabelvision is now AT&T CABLE.
Whatever it is, Pig is 100% right. If there ever was a company to steal cable off of, Cablevision is it.
If I was living on Long Island, I would no doubt have a dish.
I live in Brooklyn.
Cablevision brought cable internet service to Brooklyn last. But I really don't care since they don't offer an internet-only package.
I can't see spending $$$$ for channels I can get for free.
Long live rabbit ears!
(Frankly, I don't have the time to watch a lot ot TV. I'm too busy doing stuff here and documenting history for the site).
--Mark
You go Mark!!
Rabbit ears? Don't have a roof?
Apartments don't typically have roofs of their own.
Why doesn't the building have an antenna then?
Because the landlord doesn't feel like installing one.
(I have no idea if my building has an antenna. I don't watch much TV -- the last time was a month or two ago. I use cable for the Internet connection.)
Because the landlord doesn't feel like installing one.
Then why did your landlord allow the cable company in?
In any case, there should be a law. A landlord can't choose not to install electrical wiring or running water just because he doesn't feel like it.
Then why did your landlord allow the cable company in?
Replace YOUR with THE.
Then why did your landlord allow the cable company in?
Because he felt like it. I don't know. Why don't you ask him?
In any case, there should be a law. A landlord can't choose not to install electrical wiring or running water just because he doesn't feel like it.
Cable TV is not a basic necessity. (As I said, I don't use it myself. If I lived alone I'd cancel it immediately. When I did live alone for 3.5 years, I didn't subscribe.) Dare I say it, neither is cable modem.
Cable TV is not a basic necessity. (As I said, I don't use it myself. If I lived alone I'd cancel it immediately. When I did live alone for 3.5 years, I didn't subscribe.) Dare I say it, neither is cable modem.
Electricity is not a basic necessity either. People lived without for a long time. It has only been made one this century.
In any event, I wasn't talking about installing cable, I was talking about installing a roof antenna. It might not be a necessity, but it isn't something that's so difficult or expensive to do that it should be avoided.
Please forgive me for butting in here, but I actually have the real poop on the questions. There is a New York State LAW which prohibits landlords from refusing access to a cable company if they want to wire up a building, and it even applies to "historic sites" ... passed by the legislature in the 1980's and was enforced by the NYS Cable Commission until Paturkey killed it (I worked there) back in 1995. Now the regulation is enforced by the Public Service Commission.
On the other hand, a ROOF antenna presents a number of liabilities and it is NOT covered under the above mentioned law. The installation of a roof antenna is frowned upon by insurance companies (since it can result in water damage owing to leaks of the downlead and facilities) it can attract lightning (since an antenna needs to be grounded to work optimally) and it costs money whereas a cable operator would PAY the landlord to come onto their property and build it.
There's reality for ya ... AOL/TimeWeenie's got bucks, you don't. Guess who the politicos kiss?
What about those plug in to the wall, turn the whole building into an antenna setups?
Indoors, no external "appliances," have a nice day. Though you'd get better reception with one of those stupid T-shaped things that used to come with every FM receiver made. Rabbit ears are even better, and quite legal. Whatever is contained within your own "space" is OK as long as you don't poke holes in the wall (see your lease) ... hell, you can even put one of them pizza pan dishes up ... so long as it's INSIDE the window. :)
The MTA Channel? Sure, I'd watch, but only if the shows were done by employees rather than the higher ups.
Hypothetically speaking, what if the MTA decided to launch a cable channel which was devoted to subways and buses, the Long Island Rail Road, and MetroNorth Rail Road? It would have stories and features about the subways and buses, inform the public on the latest service diversions, and give updates on the latest mass transit reports.
Would you watch it? Why or why not?
I'd surely watch it, so would other Subtalkers, but I'm afraid that there wouldn't be enough of an audience to make the idea worthwhile.
doesnt MTA have a monthly cable public access program "Transit Transit"?
Yeah they do. Its OK, but I hardly knows when it comes on.
They have show times on their website. It's on each week at 3PM on Channel 25. They play the same episode all month.
It's on each week at 3PM on Channel 25.
Each week has seven 3PM's. Which one do you mean?
Sorry, I meant Saturday.
Saturday is 3:30, out here in Queens at least...
It would be 3:30 everywhere then, since channel 25 is the same regionwide.
Anyway:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/trantran/showsch.htm
. . .is there a particular reason they chose rename the routes in Brooklyn? I seem to recall when the north side of the Manhattan Bridge was closed before, there was no "W", "diamond Q", and "circle Q". Instead, there was the B and D, but in yellow circles. The yellow circles meant the B and D from Brooklyn were going over the Broadway Line, not Sixth Avenue. The B and D in orange circles were from the Bronx down Sixth Avenue to 34th Street. To connect between the two, you had to change at 34th Street. As I recall, there was no mass confusion. People were able to differentiate between the two. Why didn't they just do that again?
Run the yellow B, D, and Q along express along Broadway with the yellow D and Q ending at 57th Street. Then run the yellow B along the N line to Astoria. Simple. After all, it was done before.
They chose to rename because it was confusing last time.
I guess with more people riding the subway now than the last time when the north side tracks were shut down, the TA figured there might more confusion this time around. Also, I think the W might become a permanent line after the north side tracks re-open in 2004, running as a Broadway local from Astoria to Whitehall and the TA might be getting people used to seeing it now (speculation on my part). As for the cricle and diamond Q's that may cause confusion, especially if somebody forgets to set them properly. I think they should have called the Brighton Express something else, maybe K, P or T (yes I know T was the old West End line designation before 1967). I just hope the circle Q/diamond Q doesn't cause confusion.
Also, the last change was not planned to be years long, but only a couple of months.(as had been occuring in the years leading up to that) They were probably just extended G.O.'s (temporary) rather than whole picks.(semi-permanent) But now with it planned to be three years at least, plus something could always happen where we lose the bridge, so the changes have to be made "contingent permanent". Split B & D was based on the idea that they would rejoin soon, but now we know they won't.
3 years Yah Right, I seem to remember 11 YEARS passing since the last flip flop.
Couldn't they just use the Chrystie street connection like in the 80's?
The Chrystie St connection leads to the tracks on the north side of the MB. That is the side of the bridge that is being worked on for the next 3 (+) years.
That older plan was designed at a time when the north side closure wasn't supposed to last beyond 6 months.
I don't see why the old plan wasn't used anyway. People adapted to 2 B and 2 D lines rather quickly.
Did the MTA put out large color booklets about the service changes as they did in 1985? I still have the 8.5x11 four-page brochure. "Last Year, Queens Riders Were Mad As Hell." (Display a "Circle 7" broken in two.) "Guess What, Manhattan, Bronx And Brooklyn?" (Broken "Circle B, D, N, Q, R".) That brochure explained the divided B and D services very clearly. If I recall, there was also a shuttle between B'way-Lafayette and Grand...why not now?
Can you scan the booklet and post pictures? I'd love to see that. I'm not sure what your question is referring to, but there is going to be a shuttle between B'way Lafayette and Grand. There are also brochures.
Dan
Look through the archives–it’s been done already!
John
....... just like I suggested in an earlier post.
There is a scene in Chambers st. BMT station. They are on what appears to be the center Island platform, and the entire station seems way more busy than it usually is. They called it 7th st subway station. The main character boards an R-42 N correctly signed for Astoria / Coney Island. One of the middle front rollsigns is lit and shows N as well.
whats the whole sense of bringing the #3 trains to 180st if no passengers will be on it.96st the first stop
ive seen #3 trains going to the 239st yard
The #3 trains get washed at 239st yard.
thanks
Ok, lets have a contest to see what is our favorite line. We'll all vote for lines, and the line with the most votes is the favorite.
My vote goes to the 4 line for the best express line in the city.
I vot for the 4 also
Didn't we just do this?
David
Yes we did, and the vote was unanimous---The N Sea Beach line rules the roost. What? I just woke up? At least it was a pleasant dream. Maybe an impossible one. I do like the #7 Line. There seems to be some real gritty New York about it, and I did see it last night numerous times when I watched the '95 version of the "Kiss of Death."
Wake Up Frederico the Sea Beach express. maybe 44 years ago. not now
Did you get that guys? Rip Van Brighton has awakened. Get the smelling salts.
Thank you then dirt, now must get off line someone stoll myt car from in front of my door
The #4 is one of the straightest routes in the subway system. So I'm not surprise it received very high points when it comes to being your favor line.
However, I find the Broadway Line best in transfering from one line to another. And the areas these two lines (N/R) serve.
This is going to hurt a little... My favor line, OF COURSE, is the N Broadway Line.
N Broadway Line
(falls over) I have lived by the 4 line all my life, it's such a model line doing all the work of the lexington avenue line. The N I can understand, cause it pulls one heck of a load from Queens. But the 4 is the role model line.
Subway Conversation
5 train: I want to be like the 4 line
3 train: thats good son, I wanted to be like one when I was young but it was challenging.
5 train: do I have a chance?
3: Maybe my young one...maybe.
WHAT!!! YOUR MISTAKING HERE!!! THE "A" TRAIN IS THE MODEL FOR ALL SUBWAY SERVICE!!!
N bwy
How can the A be A ROLE MODEL LINE? Because it's a long line? If not then what? The crowds are not as harsh as Lex or Broadway. The 4 is better then the A any day and also the 4 line is older then the A.
The A line is actually one of the most recent lines opened in the subway system.
The reason is because the A is part of the IND 8th Av. Line, or the Independent subway co. which was the last to contribute to the NYC Subway System. The IND brought five major lines on the Subway that served tons of loads of passengers daily, esp. during rush hour.
The IRT Subway, or Interborough Rapid Transit Co., contributed all of the numbered lines of the NYC Subway System today. So the #4 Lexington Av. Express line was one of the earliest subways ever opened.
The A line is the longest line of the Subway, and although it might be referred to as the longest line or the 'major hit' on the subway, the A train time-keeping and quality and service is seemingly not the optimum, according to the people involved in this website's SubTalk.
Well, any comments or questions can be referred to as a response on this site.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
As I've said here a number of times, the A's service is HORRIBLE! I can't tell you how many times I've 15 minutes or more for a train during Rush Hour!!!!! And management has added to the whatever problems intrinsically exist with god know how many times, especially between 81-59 and 125-145, any chance to make some time is totally eliminated.
Bill
I always felt that trains are women.
Good to hear from you again Mr. Pig. I thought for a moment that you had taken an extended vacation. But, alas, you're as sharp as ever.
>>>>But the 4 is the role model line.
Are you looking for people to vote on their favorite line, or are you looking for people to simply agree with your assumption?
The TA considers their showcase lines to be the A and 7.
The #7. OK!!!!! I knew there was something I really liked about that line. It just seems to stand out.
The #7 is a very unique line because it's the only remaining IRT line in Queens. All the rest of them were even removed or replaced by the BMT service.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Removed?
Thew 7 is the only IRT line in Queens ever, except for joint service to Astoria. The 2nd Ave terminated at Queensboro Plaza, and never went further
The 2nd Avenue Elevated IRT and the 42nd St IRT could both go to either Astoria or Corona/Flushing. Both lines were pretty much intrisically IRT. The BMT was there sort of as a "squatter", with through service ending at QBP, then IRT-sized shuttles running to Corona/Flushing and Astoria. So I would say that indeed the 7 is the only IRT "left" in Queens.
:-) Andrew
"The 2nd Ave terminated at Queensboro Plaza, and never went further"
I thought the 2nd Avenue used the Astoria and Flushing Branches. But the BMT ended at Queensboro Plaza. Then later the BMT (tunnel) became a shared service with the IRT.
N bwy
Second Avenue and 42nd Street service would go to both Astoria and Flushing. The BMT had its own side of QBP (now gone) where one would transfer from BMT trains from Manhattan that terminated there to el cars (same dimensions as IRT) that ran to both points jointly with the IRT services.
The Second Avenue El stopped in 1942
In 1949, the BMT Astoria service was through routed with the Manhattan service and the platforms were shaved back. IRT service to Astoria and BMT service to Flushing ended. In addition, the BMT moved to the IRT side of QBP.
In 1962 the BMT side of QBP was demolished.
For a track map of the complex in its original state, consult http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/irt-1920.gif.
>>Subway Conversation
5 train: I want to be like the 4 line
3 train: thats good son, I wanted to be like one when I was young but it was challenging.
5 train: do I have a chance?
3: Maybe my young one...maybe.<<
I'd like to know where you get off calling the 5 the young one, when it's service pattern has been the same longer than the 3's?
The #5 isn't given preferential treatment like the #4. Even the #2 kicks the #5 butt on the local track (in the bronx of course) and comes more frequent. On the other hand, the #3 comes out second to the #4. It comes more often than the #2 and the cars are not as crowded. But no one is as frequent as the #4, except for the #6.
In speed, the #4 is probably the fastest express line while the #1 is the fastest local.
But in distance, the "A" beats most lines except for the Q. Talking about my line, I come out as one of the slowest when it comes to coming, traveling and leaving the station. But if you put me up against the L,M,J,Z - it would appeared that I was pretty fast.
On the other hand, The R line (and I witness this) is faster in everyway: Coming, leaving the subway station and the speed of the trains. But when the Q was on the Broadway tracks, the R looked like a real joke.
Let's see what happens July 22.
N Broadway Line
Chris baby---remember this. Your #4 line used to be the line for the Sea Beach in my wild youth days as a New Yorker. That is, before the TA stole it from us and gave it to the damn IRT. Still, I could take it except that's the line the goes to Yankee Stadium, and if it one thing in New York that curls my skin it is the Yankees. Oh, lo for the days of 1965-1974, and 1982-1995 when the Bronxites were little more than parasites. Their time is coming again. Their guys are getting old and the Red Sox are on the rise.
What happened to your Mets, and the best part of the N is in Astoria
Hurt my ass!!!! It feels real good. You and I are on the same page. Keep in your mind that your line is the first part or last part of my favorite line as well. To me, however, it is the Sea Beach whether it is in Queens, Manhattan or Brooklyn.
It depends on which direction your going. Ova here it's called the Astoria line while your way, it's called the Sea Beach Line. And if your in Manhattan, I have witness people calling it the the Broadway Line. Even though in my mind the real Broadway Line is the #1 since I was a kid.
Broadway Locals are 1,9,N,R .... there is no express.
Seven Avenue Express 2,3 .... there is no locals. FUNNY ISN'T IT?
What will be called a Seven Avenue Local (1,9) runs on Broadway most of the way. Besides, if you look at train signs, they indicate that the 1 and 9 are Broadway Locals.
I know this is a strange arraignment, but that is how it is titled.
N Broadway Line
Ps: By the way, no wonder I've been calling myself the Broadway Line instead of a Broadway Local, because, there isn't an express on Broadway. The Broadway that serves the yellow division. Let's see after July 22nd.
IIRC back in the olden days on the IRT West Side, trains continuing due north of 96th St. were designated Broadway-7th Ave. while those which ran along the Lenox branch were 7th Ave. services. That practice continues to this day, with the major difference being all Broadway trains are locals while all 7th Ave. trains are expresses.
yep! Strange isn't it? So that makes 4 Broadway Locals without a Broadway Express due to service changes on the yellow route. heeeheheeheh.
N Broadway Line
The best would be the 4 Woodlawn.fairly quick, not too many curves.frequency of equipment,R-62 cars are dependable, air conditioning work fairly well in cars,Not too many annoying GT's like the 5 and 2.
A 8th av express hands down.
You can pine for your #4 train, but what other train has the Rockaways, Hammel's Wye (or any wye for that matter), the Fulton express (which is very fast on either an R-38 or R-44) and the CPW (which is still a great express run. It saves loads of time, no matter what these fools say. What other train has a song written about it? What other train is world famous? NONE! (except the #7. Hey these are the lines mentioned by zman. wonder why these are the TA's showcase lines?...)
As for that #4 train, it often is reduced to a crawl as it sits behind 5 trains. And, the 6 carries just as many, if not more passengers than the #4.
RIGHT!
N bwy
The 8th Ave is fine on CPW, but south and East of Rockaway Pky 20 minute headways mid day is too long. I still vote for the Brighton, most diverse line, The 7 is great also
My favorite is the (7). I know that's not unusual, but really what a great line! There's a very close-up view of the Midtown Manhattan skyline and the underrated Queensboro Bridge. There are great views of Shea Stadium, the US Tennis Center, the World's Fairgrounds, and just the unique patchwork of neighborhoods that form northwestern Queens. There are unique above ground stations along the Queens Blvd. section, with stained glass images, and underground stations like Main Street have very nice IRT/Dual Contracts mosaics.
The (7) is a reminder of how special a place Queens is.
:-) Andrew
My favorite line is whichever line takes me where I need to go.
IMO, this is a silly thread. I could tell you a few lines that I enjoy riding, and why. That doesn't make them the best lines in the city. And why do I have to pick just one?
How about these categories?
Best Express Line in the City
Best Local Line
Best Shuttle (that is tough)
Hardest Working Line(s)
Longest Run
Nicest Views
City Moving Lines (lines that move huge crowds)
Now we're talking.
Best express: 2 from 96 to Chambers. Honorable mention to the A, which would easily carry this title if only a few grade timers were removed.
Best local: I don't know what makes a good local. Lots of close stops (so it does a good job of being a local) or far-spaced stops (so it better approximates an express)? I guess I'll give this to the L, for variety.
Best shuttle: Franklin, since it's the most interesting. The most pointless shuttle was the Canal-Chambers shuttle this past weekend, although it was by no means empty.
Hardest working lines: Most of the IRT lines. Definitely the 2, 6, 7. (The 1/9 should be on the list but it shirks its responsibility and leaves the local stations underserved.) Also the E and F in Queens.
Longest run: There's no need for subjectivity here. Isn't it the A to Far Rockaway?
Nicest views: A to the Rockaways. D to Coney Island. F/G over the Gowanus Canal.
City moving lines: How does this differ from the hardest working lines category? Perhaps the 42nd Street shuttle could fall in here: it doesn't move anyone very far but it probably gets used by more people than any single other line.
Hardest working lines: Most of the IRT lines. Definitely the 2, 6, 7. (The 1/9 should be on the list but it shirks its responsibility and leaves the local stations underserved.)
I'm not sure what you mean with respect to the 1/9.
I've posted about this many times. The 1/9 gets overcrowded due to insufficient headways. To make up for lost time, many trains are then directed to make only express stops. That leaves the local stations on the route, many of which are busier than most express stations, with gaps in service often of 10-15 minutes at rush hour. Many people give up on local service and on the inevitable overcrowding and walk from the nearest express station instead.
"I've posted about this many times. The 1/9 gets overcrowded due to insufficient headways. To make up for lost time, many trains are then directed to make only express stops. That leaves the local stations on the route, many of which are busier than most express stations, with gaps in service often of 10-15 minutes at rush hour. Many people give up on local service and on the inevitable overcrowding and walk from the nearest express station instead."
I wonder why the 1/9 is run so badly. It's doesn't merge with anything. Maybe they should put more service on these two lines. That might make a difference.
N Bwy Line
The 1/9 has different passenger flow patterns from many other lines. Most of the overburdened lines have most passengers crowding on the express, going to the last few stops. Locals remain relatively empty, and when they do get behind schedule and skip stops, most of their passengers are happy. The TA tries to apply that reasoning to the 1/9, but it fails, leaving local passengers stranded on narrow platforms (72nd, anyone?). When a local that's actually making local stops arrives, it's more crowded than the expresses (and nobody is willing to wait for the next one since it's probably at least ten minutes off).
I've been calling for more service for years. Now's the right time. (I'm sure even those 1/9 riders who hate the Redbirds would be thrilled to see doubled service, even if it were provided 100% by old Redbirds.) According to the TA's schedules, the 1/9 runs at a maximum of 15 tph. There's no reason it needs to be that low. Turning at South Ferry takes minimal extra time since the T/O doesn't need to walk the length of the train, and the added service can turn at 137th so it doesn't add to the commotion at 242nd. The tracks themselves have loads of capacity to spare.
One of these days I'd like to stand on the northbound platform at 42nd from 5 to 6 and log arriving trains.
Best Views:
I agree about the F and G, and A, but the D?? only for that 3-station stretch along Coney Island itself. The rest of it is just the backs of houses/buildings in Midwood and Sheepshead Bay -
The B/W and the F give great views of 6 or 7 neighborhoods in southern Brooklyn, with views of MAnhattan, the V-N Bridge, Coney Island, and downtown Brooklyn at different points along their *truely*-elevated lines. The F's probably even better than the B/W, I think it's higher up vertically from the ground.
-Alan Scott
Yes, I meant specifically the D approaching Coney Island.
The rest of the D is an interesting ride, but it's better experienced on the express. I also enjoy the N (and its express counterpart, often available due to GO's), with its houses directly above the platforms (or so it seems).
For elevated lines overall, the 7 takes the cake. For brief elevated runs, I kind of like the 1/9 at 125th, with its unique westward view.
I have to say the 7, for the best express service, especially that flying express track between Junction Avenue and Willets Point Boulevard (and then it ducks into a tunnel at Lawrence Street :-).
Actually, I had this on my website for months and no one particitpated. (sniff)
My Site
4 train because it runs express and comes more often.
we've done this not that long ago!!
BTW you sound like Martin Prince from "The Simpsons"!
Martin....thats a first. Well with the straphangers report saying that the Q is the best it's time to see what our best line is.
I hav a question.How come the G hasn't been given a report card grade,yet they gave the 5 the lowest grade last year?
What's wrong with that?
Someone please tell me that after bridge reconstruction is over, the N will once again be going over the bridge as the broadway express again!
B63Mike
It's too early to tell right now because the scheduled completion is four years away.
Chaohwa
3 YEARS FROM NOW! HELLO!
It's not over till it's over.
Oops, my error.
Thanks for the correction.
Chaohwa
The way things work in this city of ours, he could be right - it may take longer. Look at the Second Ave. subway. I hope that it takes only three years, but you never know what excuse is waiting in the wings.
3 years how about over 60
Unfortunately that's not likely.
N Broadway LOCAL (FOREVER)
Ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooooooooo.
I would expect that. N/Q on the H tracks, B/D on the AB tracks. This is assuming the bridge will be able to handle all tracks in operation over the long term.
I don't think so because the W isn't temporary and theres not enough track capacity.Plus if the N and W ran express with the Q,there would be frequent delays
There would be frequent delays because the N and W terminates at Astoria therefor they would have to switch tracks at the same time slowing each other down(its not like a 10 ft wide train can move across a switch at 30mph).
The most likely plan is to demote the W to Broadway Local to Whitehall from Astoria, and send the N Broadway Express with the Q. The W would run rush hours only and be less frequent than the N. This would be the arrangement:
60st tube: N,R,W
Broadway Local: R,W
Broadway Express - Bridge: Q,N
Montague tube: R,M
6th ave local: F,(V?)
6th ave express - Bridge: B,D
Weekend service would be this:
60st tube: N,R
Broadway Local: R
Broadway Express - Bridge: N
Montague tube: R
6th ave local: F
6th ave express - Bridge: (B?),D
>>The most likely plan is to demote the W to Broadway Local to Whitehall from Astoria, and send the N Broadway Express with the Q. The W would run rush hours only and be less frequent than the N. This would be the arrangement:<<
What would be most likely:
Short-turn N trains are re-signed as W, and terminate at Whitehall. (Interesting to note that I've seen a number of Short-turn N's signed up as W. Are the T/O's and C/R's giving everyone a hint?) The N would then run express from 57/7th to Canal, and then cross the bridge.
I'd have the Q return to Brighton Local service. On weekends, the D runs local. This is how it used to be. With the Q off 6th av, it should return that way.
J: Just so long as the Sea Beach becomes the Broadway Express again and goes over the bridge. That would make my year. But since I have been disappointed in the past I will not hold my breath. And yes to all those buttinskis out there who believe a guy 3000 miles away should have nothing to say on the matter, you should butt out.
2442 airmiles lax-jfk 2880 by car via I10-15-40-81-78
Wow!!! You're amazing Robert. Ever thought of splitting hairs for a living?
Miss me, Just because I have been off line for a month, does not mean I will not needle you. By the Way, I left Diplomat Travel
E-Mail me about where you know work. Are you still my Travel Agent? And, BTW, I am an unreconstructed Yankee, so be ready when we tour the Civil War sites. I might not be too popular with those damn Rebel ladies who run those shops, or those rangers who roam the parks that were once battlefields.
I am an unreconstructed Yankee
Hell, you damn Yankees invented Reconstruction. But I'm a proud, unreconstructed Confederate, and you're as fair a target as the next one who comes my way at Manassas or anywhere else :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We call it Bull Run, not Manassas. Try meeting me on my March to the Sea. That was my7 favorite part of the Civil War, and, you guessed it, William Tecumseh Sherman is my favorite general. He knew what the South needed was a good thrashing, and he gave them just that. But hell, if we ever came in contact I'm sure we'd hit it off. Then we'd start shooting.
Nah, you two will just start your Brighton-Sea Beach shouting match and people will stare at you wondering just what the hell you're talking about.:-)
We'll educate them real fast if they are of a mind to listen. If not, we'll educate those damn Confederates anyway.
The N will almost certainly become an express via bridge when full 4 track service resumes. It's only the fact that only 2 can be used at once which forces the N through the tunnel.
Is that fact or just a supposition? I've heard that song before, and the fact is the South side opened and the Sea Beach is still relegated to the Montague Tunnel.
Sea Beach Fred:
That is just supposition. The TA likes to yank the Sea Beach's chain all the time. < Grammar=thug > They don't be keepin' it Gater with tha Sea Beech. < /Grammar > Perhaps the Sea Beach should have pulled a Culver and found it's way to an IND tunnel. I like it: It keeps the Culver (my fav. S bk. line for those who < grammar=thug > don't know what I be reppin' < /grammar >) away from that demonic bridge from hell.
Note: This was not intended to offend anyone, this is how I really talk when I'm with my 'peeps'
It's logic. With only 2 tracks for 4 lines, only space for 3 exists. The TA has decided that the West End and Brighton take precedent. Ridership numbers back this up. With 4 tracks, 4 lines can be sent via the bridge. The N will be back on the bridge as soon as all 4 tracks can run at the same time.
I agree. Broadway Q local, Sixth Ave D as express on the Brighton line will probably be the configuration with full 4 track bridge service. Then both lines could be expanded to 12 TPH during the rush hours.
I like this idea, but who will go via the westend line?
N bwy
Just dump the leftovers on that line. Who really cares anyway?
I take that back with interest. I was off line for a week and did not catch that news of the B and D being pulled off the Brighton and West End Lines and put back on the IND where they belong. Ha ha ha!!!
Now we got the W on the West End and that's great, and the Q on the Brighton, the old #3 and #1 lines of the BMT. About time we got those frauds off the BMT lines. They belong on the IND, and in fact, I never understood why to combine the IND with the BMT when the IRT and Ind are really blood brothers of the Bronx and Manhattan. Keep them there and the hell out of Brooklyn. That's BMT country.
Yeh, but you are from Queens
How many times do I have to tell you. I was from BOTH Brooklyn and Queens, and spend much of my time in Brooklyn. My family and friends in Queens were for the most part Brooklyn born. Now do you get it?
Very nice Henry. You have my full endorsement on it. However, it will never fly for one important reason. IT MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE!!!!!
At least it's a possibility. Too bad they can't resurrect the Triplexes.
Why not just put a order to Breda, or whoever to build them again to the Triplex Specs. Along with the Standards
>>Very nice Henry. You have my full endorsement on it. However, it will never fly for one important reason. IT MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE!!!!!<<
Actually Fred, the TA probably would want to put the N on the bridge if they could. It would save them 2 or 3 trainsets. But, that really isn't an option until the bridge re-opens in 2004.
What about on weekends when the W and diamond-Q are not running? Can't the N use the bridge then?
That's an interesting question. I doubt one bridge line will suffice on weekends.
What about on weekends when the W terminates at Pacific and the diamond-Q is not running? Can't the N use the bridge then?
>>What about on weekends when the W terminates at Pacific and the diamond-Q is not running? Can't the N use the bridge then?<<
Yes. But, what would be the usefulness of running it express then? that would be a big waste. Both the N and R run very infrequent service on weekends, and on 4th av and Broadway, they share ridership.
No matter how you slice it or dice it, you haven't solved my problem. The Sea Beach is still in the Montague Tunnel and not on the bridge. The 100th Anniversary of the NYCSubway might be a good time for a return to the Manny B by my train. But by then the powers-that-be will probably find a new and sickening excuse to keep it off.
"I don't think so because the W isn't temporary and theres not enough track capacity.Plus if the N and W ran express with the Q,there would be frequent delays."
I'm going to hate waiting for an N or R lines while the "W" and the two "Q'S" passes us by. Maybe they can throw one of those's Q's on the local track.... HOPEFULLY!
The N and R running time is deplorable. 7.5 compare to the Brighton Beach running time is every 5 minutes (Local or Express). Add the W, and you can expect an express train every one/two minutes. That's not fair!!!
N Broadway Line
I thought the W was temporary. I read that the TA had to hold hearings about the V because it was permanent and they did not have to on the W because it was temporary.
Is this correct????
In this form it is temporary. When the B comes back it may or may not be kept as an Astoria-Whitehall local. (They could be cheap and just send the N via tunnel in the peak direction of the Astoria end, as one plan had it).
The W will be eliminated after the AB tracks are operational again and B service can be fully restored.
I agree with Chris, depending on the how they can use the Bridge, I see no reason why the N should not go Express once again.
When digging started in the 70s on 2nd Ave, were the plans already drawn up for what the stations were going to look like? If so, anybody know what happened to the blueprints? Anybody know what they would have looked like or the layout (entrances, mezzanines), besides having island platforms?
If memory serves, the Transit Museum used to have a cutaway model of the Second Avenue Line's "Midtown East" station (approximately E. 57th Street). I don't remember many of the details, however.
David
I saw one model that was similar to 63/Lexington with two escalators, with a staircase in the middle to the mezzanines and platforms.
Which one? It's gotta be close. Haven't rode the E since May, so I haven't been around to check. When I stopped riding it, the ratio between R32s and R46s was almost even. But which model has primacy? My guess would be R32s b/c R46s have total control of the F/G/R, which reminds me, does that R32 G still exist or is that gone? When answering this question, think rush hour/weekdays, don't think weekends when everything is rerouted that's not what I mean. Just regular service.
By official assignment, the E is supposed to be entirely R-32. However, with Jamaica's R-32 fleet undergoing floor replacement, R-46s are used occasionally in E service.
A few (four, I think) trains of R-32s are supposed to be assigned to the R. I see one (or more) once in a while.
No R-32s are assigned to the G, but a train does show up there on occasion.
David
R32's are only used on the G when they run out of available R46's.
But they have been using more R32's on the R and more R46's on the E lately. One day out of six one way trips on the E, I got three R46's. By far a personal record.
Do you usually work the E train? Perhaps I've seen you.
Dan
Whenever a train comes out of the yard and becomes and E, it is supposed to be an R-32. However, thanx to the weekend R to Jamaica CTR G.O.s, this is what happens:
All E trains in Archer Ave become Rs. Thus, more R-32 Rs.
-End of G.O.
All R trains in Archer Ave become Es. Thus, more R-46 Es.
I was on the R line today (an R32 train, I rode #3350) at around 10 in the morning and along the route, I saw three R46 R trains headed toward 95th St. - Brooklyn.
Now I was very curious about it, when I tried to take Henry R32's explanation for the rerouted rail cars.
For 'New Flyer #857':
The E line has been 'leveling up' with R32's and 46's. On the weekends, though, you may expect the next E train to be an R32, although anything can happen. (No service diversions, regular weekend service).
Also, the T/A is replacing the floorboards of the R32 at Jamaica Yard with a sort of navy blue design with speckles of white dots, as opposed to the beige sandy color on the former R32 trains.
On weekdays, though, I see more R46's on the E line during afternoon rush hour. The main reason why I think I see more R46's is because they can carry more passengers during rush hours. (I was at the crowded 53rd St.- Lex Av. E F station) The Queens Blvd. line is OVERLY CROWDED during rush hours on the E and F.
All F trains are R46's and the E would get them too because 75'ers can hold more passengers than the 60' R32's. (This is from my own observation)
On an R46 car, there is seating available for 80 passengers. The standees for it may be a little more than twice its seating capacity. Let's assume that during rush hour the entire R46 E train is completely filled with passengers. (I've been in this situation once)Let's say it can hold about 170 passengers.
Multiply that x8 for the number of cars on the train, and that's 1,360 passengers served on that train alone.
This compared to the seating and standee capacity for the 60' R32's is almost no comparison. The R46's are more roomier.
Well, ..have to get some sleep now...
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I guessed before 75ers were better because if you just consider a train of 60footers 600 feet long there's going to be 9 intervals between cars meaning 9 places people can't be, and then on a 75 footer train, there's only 7 intervals, 7 places people can't be, so there's more capacity.
Actually, while an individual 75-foot car is, of course, larger than an individual 60-foot car, the E doesn't run single-car trains -- it runs them in chains of eight 75-footers or ten 60-footers, which magically add up to the same length.
Which has more standing room? I'm not sure. The R-32 trainsets have more unusable gaps between cars, as well as two cabs in each car. OTOH, the R-46 seating consumes more standing space than it offers in seating space (and I've seen the transverse window seats go unoccupied even when the rest of the car is packed). The big R-32 advantage is that there are more doors per trainset (40 vs. 32 per side).
"The big R-32 advantage is that there are more doors per trainset (40 vs. 32 per side)."
That and the fact that there's more intervals between cars {9 on a 60' car train and 7 on a 75' car train} must eat up seating space. Standing space must be lower on the 60'ers too. On an R46 at the 1 end I beleve you have two sets of three seats looking at each other, and there's a lot of space between them for standing.
I don't know which eats up more standing space, gaps between cars or transverse seats.
All the car assignment page says is that the Q train gets R40s and R68s, which of these will go to circle Q and which will go to diamond Q
We'll find out for sure in a week.
I expect the local will get R-68 and the express will get R-40, as today. But I'm guessing.
I'm hoping they'll make an exception on the first day and run R-40's on the local.
>>>>I expect the local will get R-68 and the express will get R-40, as today. But I'm guessing.
Your guess is correct according to the preliminary car roster.
Yippee! Yappee!! Yahooey!!!!
Dang. I heard that the R-68 was going back to the Express. There were even threads complaining about R-68 speed and how those fools were debunked (the fools that believed the R-68s were slow).
Anyone with an MDBF gonkulator can fudge da numbers. ("Gonkulator" was one of the "Hogan's Heroes" episodes if anyone's scratching parts of their anatomy they forgot they had here)
Or catch a rabbit instead...
Come back here, you skwewy wabbit!
R68 exp means hiding them off-hours and running R40s 24/7.
>>>>I expect the local will get R-68 and the express will get R-40, as today. But I'm guessing.
I think you know the truth, but you can't handle it. :)
I expect the status quo to be maintained; it would make no sense to put the faster cars on the local.
wayne
THE R-68s ARE NOT SLOWER.
Besides, what all the anti-R-68 fools are forgetting is that if a car really has better acceleration, you get more benefit by putting it someplace where it has to stop MORE and not less.
I feel it will be an even mix, just as 6 trains which start their day on the express may end up becoming locals, similarly Qs will do the same. It will be impossible to maintain a division between the two, weekdays anyway.
Why should it be hard to keep the fleets separate? Always was before Chrystie Street, except from the Bankers.
Why would they have a hard time? The frequency of service doesn't shift from one to the other. They are seperate lines with only the "Q" bringing them together. But it'd be nice to have rareities everyonce in a while like the E gets an 46 and R gets an R32 and G gets an R32.
I really wouldn't mind it either way. If the R40 stays on the express Q then you get a nice railfan window fast ride, if it goes to local Q for some strange reason you get to finally once again ride into Coney Island so high up over the F tracks with a railfan window, nice scenery.
Yes, and a nice curved seat wouldn't kill on the express.
Given the short height of the backs of the seats on the R-40s, the length of the bottom of the seats and the lowness of the railfan windows, I've always had a sneaking suspicion someone about 5-foot-1 or smaller must have designed the interior of those cars :-)
Yesterday was my last trip to NYC before I start classes at Hofstra in the fall.
Now I usually enjoy riding the lovely NYC Subway and have made several trips for that reason alone but yesterday was the first time I noticed how intolerably slow the trains are.
It took an hour and a half, with no slow runs or detours, for a friend of mine and I to ride from Stilwell Avenue to Yankee Stadium on the D. The fact that we were on an R-68 notwithstanding, virtually all non-IRT trains we were on yesterday took forever to get us even a few stations away.
On another topic, I'm the last person to ride an R-142. I won't echo all the other comments I've read here so I'll simply say I don't care for the bench seats.
Hopefully, I'll be able to get into town a bit more often being just a half-hour away as opposed to two and a half hours.
D is a pretty DULL train! :-0
You took the D from Stillwell to the Stadium??? I have a few schoolmates that come from the Coney Is. area, and they never fail to mention to me how long that trip takes. With or without the Hippos.
Well it IS a long way between the two. An hour and ten minutes is guaranteed, without delays.
Just for everyone's amusement, when I *worked* the D train, I lived in the Bronx and had to report to Stillwell for my tour. Had to do that end-to-end twice a day ... and back then it was an hour and twenty each way ... wonder why I didn't like my job? :)
Next time, change at Atlantic Ave. from the D to the 4 train. You'll save some time since the 4 is a more direct route than the D and uses the faster Journalmon St. tunnel, as opposed to the very slow Manny B crossing.
When the Q takes over next week, a transfer will be necessary. Which will be the better place to change from the Q to the 4, Atlantic or 14th? The latter is more direct but it may be slower. (I assume changing at 34th to the D isn't a reasonable option.)
It was actually my intention to change at Atlantic but I went to sleep around Newkirk Ave and didnt wake up until we were at Grand St. It was a long ride.
Since nobody here has a farewell trip to the Orange Q, 6th ave dash and Manny B northside I have planned one. It will be on Friday July 20th, the last weekday of Q service on 6th ave. I will be at the west end of the platform (near the control room) at 21st Queensbridge at the northern platform. Without a diverging track the Q will gain a good amount of speed into the 63rd street tunnel. I will be waiting at 3pm. I will leave at 3:10pm. We will take the Q train (front car of course) through the 63rd street tunnel and down 6th ave express. Will go across the Manhattan bridge northside and will take the Q to the end at Brighton Beach. From there a "D" to Stillwell avenue. If anybody is hungry we could go to Nathan's (I know many of us love that place). Then a B to Manhattan from Stillwell. This will be the farewell to Brooklyn's B line as it will become the W. We will take the B to 34th street where the trip will end. Please email me or reply if you're interested. It's my first time ever planning a subtalk trip but I figured since nobody else came up with the idea that I should bring it up. Has anyone made plans yet for a south side trip? Well again if you're interested please email or reply. I'll be wearing a Coney Island overhaul shop cap so you'll recognize me.
Myself and PLayland will join you, I'll try to drag THE JOE out as well.
Whats great is that Seven has already decided for me. So I guess, yeah, I'm comin' too. Not like I have a choice anyway.
OK I will hope to see you all there. This will probably be the last time the Q runs on 6th avenue, since when both sides are open the Q will remain on Broadway. So enjoy the DASH for the last time from a railfan window.
Sounds like fun. I'll try to join you, but I may have to ditch at DeKalb and go home. We'll see how I am for time.
Dan
OK well I hope to see you there. Well south of Dekalb the Q pretty much will remain the same, but everything north of there including the dash will not be seen for quite a few years. I'm sure gonna miss that sweet 34th-W4th dash.
Little to EARLY in the afternoon for me. Most of us WORK for a living >G<.
Well I figured 3pm because it's before the rush hour so we can get max speed. Later on there's more congestion so the dash may not be as fast. And it's the last weekday Q service is running via 6th ave and northside. Saturday is the official last day of northside service but only B's and D's, R68s with no front window.
NOTES
(1) Subsequent revisions will be reflected in the next update.
(2) Listings are based on technical history and consist practice.
(3) This list describes available equipment on the date indicated. All may not have been used in revenue service.
(4) Additional changes not shown were awaiting confirmation.
#1/9 (Red)-340 cars
340 WH R-62A 1651-1670, 2156-2475 (unitized; E-cam)
(1 WH R-62A from 1 used on 5.)
#2 (Black)-406 cars
152 GE R-33 8916-8967, 8970-8979, 8982-9017, 9020-9055, 9058-9075
134 GE R-33 9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9123, 9126-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-9151, 9154-9211, 9214/9215
85 Alstom (Am) R-142 6301-6350, 6411-6445 (unitized)
35 Am R-142 6576-6610 (unitized)
(Up to 5 trains of GE R-33s from 2 used on 5 all times.)
#3 (Blue)-274 cars (excluding 10 for S)
30 WH R-62A 1871-1900 (unitized; E-cam)
244 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-2155 (single cars; E-cam)
(Cars 1901, 1906, 1911, 1915, 1916, 1920, 1921, 1925, 1926, 1930, 1931, 1935, 1936, 1940, 1941, 1945, 1946, 1950, 1951, 1955, 1956, 1960, 1961, 1965 have one full-width cab for use on S.)
#4 (Orange)-423 cars
20 GE R-33 8836-8855
88 GE R-33 9216-9223, 9226-9305
315 GE R-62 1301-1365, 1371-1434, 1438, 1441-1625 (unitized)
#5 (Green)-374 cars
32 GE R-26 7762/7763, 7766-7779, 7782/7783, 7786/7787, 7790-7801
44 GE R-26 7804-7813, 7816-7827, 7830-7833, 7838/7839, 7842-7853, 7856-7859
44 GE R-28 7860-7869, 7872-7893, 7896-7901, 7904-7909
44 GE R-28 7910-7917, 7920-7941, 7944-7951, 7954-7959
112 GE R-29 8688-8711, 8714-8775, 8778-8799, 8802-8805
88 GE R-33 8806-8835, 8856-8883, 8886-8915
10 GE WF R-36 9760-9769
(Up to 5 GE R-33s from 2 used on 5 all times).
(2 WH R-62A from used on 5 all times).
(1 WH R-62A from 1 used on 5).
#6 (Yellow)-556 cars
106 WH R-29 8570-8599, 8602-8609, 8612-8625, 8628-8635, 8638-8653, 8656-8673, 8676-8687
28 WH WF R-36 9482-9485, 9488-9491, 9494-9503, 9510/9511, 9514/9515, 9518-9523
2 WH R-36 9524/9525
200 WH R-62A 1671-1870 (unitized; standard cam)
220 Am R-142A 7211-7430 (unitized)
(2 WH R-62A from 6 used on 5 all times).
#7 (WH-Black, GE-Yellow)-393 cars
39 WH WF R-33 9307-9345
132 WH WF R-36 9346-9477
202 GE WF R-36 9558-9759
S (Blue)-10 cars
10 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-2155 (single cars; E-cam)
(Cars 1901, 1906, 1911, 1915, 1916, 1920, 1921, 1925, 1926, 1930, 1931, 1935, 1936, 1940, 1941, 1945, 1946, 1950, 1951, 1955, 1956, 1960, 1961, 1965 have one full-width cab for use on S).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Regards,
Hopefully this will be kept up to date as the Redbirds are scrapped.
thanks
wayne
9760-9769 are back home in Corona.
The R29's are the only Redbirds running on the 6 as of last week.
That's correct.
9760-9769 were back on the 7 line 7/11/01 with 5 line side signs and bulkhead cards.
The were were two trains of R-36s on the 6 line Monday, July 9. One R-36 train was reported in the AM rush of Wednesday, July 11.
Absent further observations, the last date will stand. The latest photos I can access are dated July 7.
There were 6-8 sets of WH R-29s in service this past Friday (July 13). These should have a few weeks left, if no further delays with R-142A deliveries.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecba5@aol.com)
As for the R142(A)'s: 7436-45 was out testing yesterday along with R142 6506-15. 7446-50 is on the property right now.
What happened to the Mainline R36's on the #7?
Jim D. (RailBus)
OOPS! A Typo!
There were 20: 9526-9539, 9542/9543, 9546/9547, 9550/9551.
Still there as of 7/16/01.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
1) In the immediate future be aware if cars 8916-8955 are on the 2 or 5. Over the next few months, watch for GE R-33s from the 8916-9075 group to be gradually transferred from 2 to 5. These would be used to gradually replace the GE R-26/28/29s. Observations of this group would be greatly appreciated.
2) It appears the last trip for a WH R-36 train on the 6 line may have been Wednesday, July 11. Please watch for R-36s (if any) on the 6. As of Friday night there were 22 on the roster but they may no longer be in service. This includes lone ML R-36 pair 9524/9525.
3) Watch for possible transfers of equipment to the 7 line. GE WF R-36s 9760-69 were returned on 7/11. The former Pelham (6) WF Cars may go to the 7 or another type (R-33?) may be reassigned there.
That's this week's advisories. Please keep your eyes peeled. You are watching history unfold.
Any and all fed back would be greatly appreciated. If possible please return comment via e-mail.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
6621-6630 at unionport yard 7/15/01
7455,7456 and others at 239th yard 7/15/01
I'll add to this.
6631-35 were delivered in the daylight from Brooklyn to East 180th Street by Lexington Av today. It was about 7:10PM, when the train passed me on the platform at Bowling Green. What luck! I was on lunch and out of the booth when I heard the growling of a diesel locootive making it's way north with spanking new 142s in tow. That's EYEWITNESS NEWS for you.
Also: 6501-05 are now on the road in service as of this past Friday, and are coupled to 6331-35.
6506-15 are doing simulation runs.
The Kawasaki 142A Units, 7411-15 and 7441-45 are also doing simulations.
-Stef
7411-15 is coupled to 16-20 (No more simulation runs), and I saw it yesterday running on the 6, while I was on the 4...
i saw 6490-6500 at 207th yard 7/16/01
its getting the brakes adjusted. thats one of the early deliveries being fixed.
really
I'm pretty sure of what I saw although I could be wrong, but 7416-25 are supposed to be running together.
-Stef
You are currect.
7411-7415 with 7441-7445 at Unionport
7416-7425 are in service.
#6601-6610 is currently in service on the #2
#7426-7435 is currently in service on the #6
#6621-6625 are on the TA property as well. I saw it inside the shop a few weeks ago. Any more of them in the yard or the shop?
CWalNYC
6631-35 just arrived from Plattsburgh yesterday.
-Stef
R142 6611-6615 and 6626-30 are in the shop. There are other sets in there as well. R142A 7446-50 is in the shop.
Thanks.
I haven't been up there in weeks. Are there any on the test tracks?
CWalNYC
6516-6520 was on the Dyre test tracks yesterday. Go to Lenox, you might be in for a surprise........
I also seen that train on a track test on the White Plain line between Burke Ave and Bronx Park East.
whats at lenox
how come R-142a 7211-20 is still out of service? its been sitting in unionport for some time now.
maybe its testing again
the so called damaged R-142 6586-6590 is now running on the 2 attached to set 6346-6350.
I was just about to mention that. I came off that train a little after midnight.
-Stef
is it really what about 6587-6588
6587-88 is the trailer cars in the set of 6586-6590. ran with no problems. still running today. 6301-10 is out of service as they fix the airconditioner in 6307 south end of the car. it was making a loud ruckus everytime the fans came on.
ive been on it like 3 times
Yes I saw that trainset at Flatbush yesterday evening around 7pm.
I had that train today. It really doesn't take long to fix minor damage which was a busted fuse. It only takes a day or two to come back to the road.
The last time I was on a R142 there was scratchetti next to the doors. Do the TA replace that? Since its made out of metal.
no. replacement is expensive. with the new type of stainless steel that was used to build these cars, they can buff it out. it will still be there but you can't notice it.
I remember some movie in Black And White done in the late early 60's that featured the subways in a good part of the movie. It was about people being taunted by roving gangs. I know it wasnt 'The Warriors' because its not in Black And White and that movie came out in 1979 (One year after I was born). So does anyone know the name of the Black and White film?
It was "The Incident," and it came out in 1967. Look in the SubTalk archives for previous discussions (of which there are many) about this movie. For details about the movie itself, look at the Internet Movie Database (http://www.us.imdb.com).
Cool. Thanks A lot :)
I have a question about the number 4 line, Which stops at "Woodlawn Road", but there isnt a Woodlawn road?The road underneath is JeromeAve and the road that forks off is Bainbridge Avenue.I was just wondering why this is.was there a Woodlawn road to begin with?
I do believe....Woodlawn Rd was changed to Bainbridge Avenue...most likely back in the 20's....Probably the Bronx Historical Society
would really have the answer.
The 4 stops at Woodlawn, not Woodlawn Road. Some signs make this error but most are correct, as is the map.
But all the original Redbird route signs (and the Low Vs before them) listed Woodlawn Road as the No. 4's northern terminus. The change has only come about in recent years.
It's also possible that Woodlawn rd could be that point where Jerome and Bainbridge merge and head up to Yonkers and that pretty much ends in Woodlawn at the 233 st on-ramp to the Deegan. after that it's pretty much service road leading up to Central Ave.
Car#9279 have Woodlawn Road on its bulkhead sign.
Metro-North also has a stop called Woodlawn. It's located at the Bronx River Pkwy and 233rd St. This would suggest that Woodlawn was the name of the section of the Bronx rather than a specific street.
Woodlawn Road was a specific street (Bainbridge Avenue), and a neighborhood.
In John McNamara's book, "History in Asphalt" he describes two "Woodlawn Roads" in The Bronx. No 1 was the former name of East 204 St from the Grand Concourse to the Botanical Garden, it was chaged in 1911 to Potter Place. No 2 was the former name of Baonbridge Avenue from East 205 Street north to Jerome Avenue. This is the one that gave the subway station its name.
It should be noted the Woodlawn is also the name of a cemetery in the the north Bronx where many famous people are buried,among them FW Woolworth,Herman Melville and Moby Dick.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>> Woodlawn is also the name of a cemetery in the the north Bronx where many famous people are buried,among them .... Moby Dick <<<
That's got to be one humongous grave site! :-)
Tom
It's called Woodlawn because It is next to Woodlawn Cemetery and at the next traffic light north (e 233 st) you're in the actual Woodlawn section of the Bronx.
I happin to fround this site and it's on a 62 Mile Rail line from Phily to Wyomissing. And it's going to use Overhead Wires and trains are run by ONE Person. The type of fare payment are "POP"("POP" Means Proof of payment.)And here's what tracks it's Going to use."Alignment
MetroRail trains would operate on SEPTA-owned tracks between Philadelphia and Norristown, except for a short stretch between Spring Garden and 52nd streets in West Philadelphia, which Amtrak owns.
Between Norristown and Wyomissing, trains would run in a corridor now owned by Norfolk Southern (NS). MetroRail could operate on its own separate tracks or share tracks with NS, depending on the results of negotiations with NS. Most trackage is expected to be separate.
In the densely developed area between Port Kennedy and the King of Prussia mall, MetroRail would include a modern aerial viaduct."
There's ALOT More info on this project. SO check out the link below.
http://www.svmetro.com/
BTW. The project have been going on since 1998.
hmm i think that the product continue all the way up to reading.
Well, this will only happen if someone actually pays for it. The Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers is opposing this plan in favor of a plan of lower expense involving dual mode locomotives and not building enough track to Reading to allow 15 minute headways there (they believe in greater headways to Port Kennedy and King of Prussia) for the fact that:
-A plan of lower expense has a greater chance of being implemented, and if SEPTA becomes familiar with using Dual mode locomotives, it will be easier to build other rail extentions using dual mode instead of electrifying. More at DVARP's web site.
Between walking over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge, riding The Cyclone and Wonder Wheel, and riding over the north side of the bridge today, we went to the Transit Museum. They had what they listed as a BMT Q car #1612 C. But, it was the width of Division A cars. Why is this?
The "Q" cars were rebuilt into "Q" (for "Queens") cars from BMT elevated cars as the BMT's contribution to the 1939-40 World's Fair. They were not subway cars, having been built for the "el" lines the BMT operated.
David
At the time (1930s), the BMT and IRT shared operations on the Astoria and Flushing Lines. BMT trains on the Flushing Line ran as far as Willets Point, the site of the fair (Flushing Meadow Park), and elevated cars were used.
David
BMT gate cars got to operate into Main St., but 2nd Avenue el trains didn't.
Bu's in Main Street? Do you know which years?
Bu's in Main Street? Do you know which years?
Only after 1928 :-)
Started Saturday, Jan 21, 1928. Q types began coming in at the end of 1938. I don't know at what gate cars were completely withdrawn.
Thanks. For some reason I thought that the BMT el car shuttle
trains were turned back at Willets Point, even after Main St
opened.
I'm not exactly sure why the BUs were allowed into Main Street but the Manhattan el cars weren't. Top two answers I can think of are:
1. The BMT pressed for this successfully, as it was the only way to vindicate its full trackage rights on the Flushing Line, so this was made an exception to the rule not to introduce wooden cars in new underground trackage; or
2. The IRT and BMT didn't want to deal with headache of dispatching local and express services on three different lines from Main Street, so 2nd Ave. was the odd service out.
Maybe both. Maybe neither. But a decent guess.
Hi Paul - another reason the BU 1200 & 1400 & Q - type cars could go into subway tunnels at Flushing were the fact they had a composition concrete agregate flooring and steel framing - they did not
require truss rods as Manhattan el cars with semi-wood-steel framing and wooden flooring required. Their fire-proof capacities re; underbody
equipent "accidents" or short-circuit fires were
more substantial than Manhattan IRT cars. Also the Q types weree extensively overhaled AND rebuilt by
the old BMT Company just for the WF of 1939-40 and
were Almost" like new when on line those early years
of their new rebuilt-life.
I don't know a lot about this, but I do remember from my 1970s childhood in Flushing that the station entrances had signs mentioning the old BMT service still there. I asked my mother, who remembered the old joint operation, and told me that it was long gone.
I think the Qs ran on the 3rd Ave line at one time, but I am not sure
I think the Qs ran on the 3rd Ave line at one time, but I am not sure
Picture on this page of The Third Rail.
The Qs were used only in express service on the 3rd Ave. el, carrying revenue passengers in the peak direction while operating on the express track. They deadheaded in the opposite direction.
From some time in 1950 until some time in 1956 when Steel Steinway subway cars replaced wood equipment on the "sort of" 3rd ave. el..Bronx. That was when they had the markers moved inboard which looked a lot better than the BMT outboard style IMHO.
>>> BMT trains on the Flushing Line ran as far as Willets Point, <<<
During the ‘40s Q cars went all the way to Main Street.
Tom
Did they? My mistake.
David
There is a Q car at TMNY. It is currently looking a bit forlorn. The guys currently restoring the R-16 are thinking of turning their attentions to the Q after the R-16 is done. The current plan is to restore it as a BU. It would be nice to start building up a restoration fund to tap when it is time to start the work on the Q. If you are interested in making a tax-deductable contribution, please see our web page at tmny.org, or you can even donate on-line through the membership section of shop.tmny.org.
Thanks!
As I was signing at World Trade Center at 9:30 this moring, I saw one set maybe both sets, passing on the Uptown "A" tracks. Me and the Dispature both just looked at each other as to what was going on. Dose anyone have any info on this.
Robert
Yeah, today was a Nostalgia Special D type trip to Rockaway Park sponsored by the Transit Museum.
The lost train from 1925 found its way back from a long GO :)
--Mark
what number was the marker on?
On the first nostalgia trip last month, I believe it was signed as a 1.
Should have had a GO out for the Museum Train, not reading your G.O.'s there Robert??
Last time I rode it, we pulled into Jay (north on the F line) and the Tower kept giving the wrong lineup (twice for 6th Ave) and the T/O yelled out, "doen't anyone read G.O.'s anymore!!"
>G<
When do the R143's go into service on the L line. Also what is the R160, and when are they supposed to arrive. Which lines will they be running on?
R-143's will be in service next year if they pass their tests.
The R-160 is in the drawing boards or the prototype is currently in production. It is from what I know a 60ft car, to run everywhere in the system except IRT of course. It's supposed to get rid of the R-40 or R-38. Or it's purpose is just to add more cars to the system which is greatly needed.
The way people feel on this board about their beloved redbirds, is the same way that I'll feel when they retire the 38's.
Really?
They arrived after the R32's & have a similar look. However, they may be retired before them, as the 32's were built better.
Just curious, why miss that class of cars (the 38's) in particular?
The handholds curve down by the doors. Other than the Redbirds (which, as we know, are on their way out) and the Coney Island-GOHed R-40's (which have their own problems, apparently), holding the overhead railing for more than a few minutes cuts off all circulation in my arm.
That would be the Coney-Island GOH'd R42's (#4840-4949), all the R40 and R40M were Sumitomo.
Yes I agree with you, the R38 has a very handsome interior, with the backlit advertising signs (no ceiling lights), and the curly bars are simply divine. Plus they're FAST!
wayne
Yes, R-42, not R-40. Sorry about the typo.
I agree on the R-38 interior. I also like the R-42 interior. The R-40, unfortunately, suffers from a few innovative misfeatures.
>>The R-160 is in the drawing boards or the prototype is currently in production. It is from what I know a 60ft car, to run everywhere in the system except IRT of course. It's supposed to get rid of the R-40 or R-38. Or it's purpose is just to add more cars to the system which is greatly needed.<<
The prototype is not in production, I don't even think a contractor has bid on the cars yet. And, it is set to replace 607 cars from the R-32GE,R-38,R-40,R-40m and R-42 classes. (with 53 extra cars, bringing the order to 660.) This has been gone over numerous times.
The era of digital cars is really starting to kick in. In 15 years the R-32-R-40 will be gone. Probably the R-160 and R-143 will be in full swing. Maybe cars in the R-170's or R-180's will be getting designed or even in production. This is all going to be interesting.
..and my favorites, the R46's, will either be gone or on their way out(sniffle).
The R-32s will be roaming the system until the 15th year.
How long is the R143.
Sixty feet.
Peace,
ANDEE
And it looks like the damn R142/R142A inside! PHOOEY!
wayne
How do you feel about the R-110B? (I've never seen it in person but there are lots of pictures at nycrail.com.) IMO, it's a heck of a lot classier than the R-143 that ultimately prevailed, except for the seating.
About six to eight weeks.
Dan
You missed the thread.
There will have to be new conductor boards on all the Eastern Division lines. Why? The C/R position on the R-143 is between the 4th and 5th cars, no negotiations. The C/R position on the R-40/42 is between the 5th and 6th cars. There would have to be separate marker boards. I'm guessing the design will be R-110 style, blue with R-143 R-143 R-143 written in white.
Isn't the 40/42 conductor position also between the 4th and 5th cars? Why would it be elsewhere?
Dan
Absolutely not. There are no conductor controls in the #1 cabs.
Like Bill from Maspeth said, there are no Conductor's controls in the number 1 cab on all R40/42 equipment.
The C/R operates between the 3rd and 4th car southbound on an 8 car train. Conversely, that would be cars 5 & 6 heading north.
I've heard that the Jamaica line at 168th was eliminated in an attempt to "improve" downtown Jamaica. However, according to this stie, this idea (not suprisingly) did more harm than good, as it was now harder to reach the stores there.
I was wondering if anyone knows or remembers who first proposed this demolition, and whether the TA went along willingly or made any serious attempt to save the line? What was the reaction of the community? Was there any serious effort to save the line or did everyone just jump on the bandwagon for elimination?
The big department stores Macy's and to a lesser extent Allied Stores (Gertz) wanted the el removed. The small merchants wanted it to stay. Macy's pulled up its tent about a month after the el stopped.
It could've been saved, at least until 1985, if the TA wasn't so damned quick to begin tearing it down. The city was a co-conspirator in this mess.
Wasn't Donald Mannes part of the shenanigans ?
As for alternatives to Archer, I would have figured out a way to route it onto the LIRR embankment from Lefferts Blvd keeping the tracks physically seperate and put the terminal around where the Airtrain terminal is to go. It would not have been easy, but still much cheaper than building the subway.
I though that it was May's Department Store, not maCy's, that wanted the el down.
No, it was definitely Macy's. Their store was on 165th St, one block north of El. One of their features was roof parking.
May's was one block east of the end of the el. It's easy to confuse the two.
I was only a kid at the time, but I remember Jamaica being one of the worst neighborhoods in NY. Shopping was way down, and more and more started making the trip to Green Acres and Queens Center.
While people blame the department stores for the demise of the J to 168th, I don't think they had much to do with the ruination of the J line west of Sutphin.
I am sure the El was torn down to build the Archer Avenue Subway that was supposed to go to St. Albans. Then they cancelled the St. Albans section, but had already planned the Queens Blvd. connection to Archer Avenue already. My guess it is like the "63 St. Tunnel" fiasco: "We already got bids on it, even though we're cancelling the important part of it so let's build it anyway."
Shades of the Second Avenue El. The problem is not the elimination of the El; it's the failure to build the promised replacement (or in the case of Jamaica, to build all of it).
"I've heard that the Jamaica line at 168th was eliminated in an attempt to "improve" downtown Jamaica. However, according to this stie, this idea (not suprisingly) did more harm than good, as it was now harder to reach the stores there."
You got it half-right. The demolition of the El did help improve downtown Jamaica - a great deal. However, if the Archer Av line had not been implemented, then removal of the El would simply have meant removal of subway service - not good for Jamaica. Happily, that wasn't the case. Some merchants were unhappy because the last stop is now further away. That's understandable, but by no means a disaster.
The whole "package" - the El demolition, the Archer Av line with a new route for the E train, direct connection to the LIRR, and extensive connecting bus service from covered bays- was coordinated with govt. investment in the area and triggered private investment as well. Today, the arrival of Airtrain is helping continue that improvement.
15 years ago you risked your life walking through that area, and the biggest merchants were drug dealers. Not the case now!
It would be nice to see the J subway extended further along Archer (next stop Merrick Blvd?). It's not impossible - could still happen.
I've heard that the Jamaica line at 168th was eliminated in an attempt to "improve" downtown Jamaica. However, according to this site, this idea (not suprisingly) did more harm than good, as it was now harder to reach the stores there.
You got it half-right. The demolition of the El did help improve downtown Jamaica - a great deal. However, if the Archer Av line had not been implemented, then removal of the El would simply have meant removal of subway service - not good for Jamaica. Happily, that wasn't the case. Some merchants were unhappy because the last stop is now further away. That's understandable, but by no means a disaster.
It wasn't the location of the last stop that hurt downtown Jamaica. It was the fact that the El was demolished more than a decade before the Archer Avenue line opened. Downtown Jamaica was left without any rail transit service (not counting the higher-priced LIRR) for way too long a period. It's not surprising that the area suffered considerably, especially considering that the growth in suburban shopping centers would have made the period in question challenging under the best of circumstances.
The whole "package" - the El demolition, the Archer Av line with a new route for the E train, direct connection to the LIRR, and extensive connecting bus service from covered bays- was coordinated with govt. investment in the area and triggered private investment as well. Today, the arrival of Airtrain is helping continue that improvement.
15 years ago you risked your life walking through that area, and the biggest merchants were drug dealers. Not the case now!
Downtown Jamaica has improved in recent years, as you correctly note, but let's not forget the fact that none of the area's six major projects that have been completed in recent years or which are under construction are private sector activities. Five of the six are under outright government ownership (the federal building, the new court house, the FDA labs, Jamaica station and Airtrain), while the sixth (the commercial development by the E/J terminal) is heavily subsidized.
Sure, some private investment has been triggered, but by any reasonable standards it's a pretty feeble amount.
"It wasn't the location of the last stop that hurt downtown Jamaica. It was the fact that the El was demolished more than a decade before the Archer Avenue line opened. Downtown Jamaica was left without any rail transit service (not counting the higher-priced LIRR) for way too long a period. It's not surprising that the area suffered considerably, especially considering that the growth in suburban shopping centers would have made the period in question challenging under the best of circumstances."
Yes, I would agree with that. An accurate assessment.
"Downtown Jamaica has improved in recent years, as you correctly note, but let's not forget the fact that none of the area's six major projects that have been completed in recent years or which are under construction are private sector activities. Five of the six are under outright government ownership (the federal building, the new court house, the FDA labs, Jamaica station and Airtrain), while the sixth (the commercial development by the E/J terminal) is heavily subsidized."
In effect, though, no different than many other areas of the city, even wealthy ones, where the city offers tax breaks for companies to invest. The subsidy's rewards are evident. Moreover, the mainline merchants at One Jamaica Center will be assuming substantial risks on their own.
"Sure, some private investment has been triggered, but by any reasonable standards it's a pretty feeble amount."
Wrong. Private investment has been substantial, and as I noted above, the subsidies, in effect, have not been all that different from those offered other parts of the city. This is not "feeble." It is substantial, and has made the public/private partnership here a success. To suggest otherwise is misinformation.
BTW A new hotel/conference center is in the works, funded mostly with private funds...
Sure, some private investment has been triggered, but by any reasonable standards it's a pretty feeble amount.
Wrong. Private investment has been substantial, and as I noted above, the subsidies, in effect, have not been all that different from those offered other parts of the city. This is not "feeble." It is substantial, and has made the public/private partnership here a success. To suggest otherwise is misinformation.
Where is all this private-sector investment? All but one of the construction projects I've seen, as noted in my earlier post, are under outright government ownership. From what I have heard, the one exception - the commercial development by the E/J terminal - has gotten large direct taxpayer subsidies, not mere tax breaks. You can correct me if my information is wrong. You want to see ample private sector development, look around most any suburban commercial area. Don't expect to see much if any of that in Downtown Jamaica.
BTW A new hotel/conference center is in the works, funded mostly with private funds...
"Coming soon" is one of the oldest lines in the (real estate) book.
"Where is all this private-sector investment? All but one of the construction projects I've seen, as noted in my earlier post, are under outright government ownership. From what I have heard, the one exception - the commercial development by the E/J terminal - has gotten large direct taxpayer subsidies, not mere tax breaks. You can correct me if my information is wrong. You want to see ample private sector development, look around most any suburban commercial area. Don't expect to see much if any of that in Downtown Jamaica."
There is no difference between a tax break, when large enough, and a direct subsidy. When a large corporation doesn't have to pay any taxes because it decided to stay in a Manhattan office building, govt. is putting money directly to their bottom line.
BTW A new hotel/conference center is in the works, funded mostly with private funds...
"Coming soon" is one of the oldest lines in the (real estate) book."
Considering that the developer wants to break ground next year, that's pretty close by. The NIMBYs are already gearing up (but will not succeed-not enough clout).
Of course, if everyone had your attitude New York would have sunk into the ocean a long time ago...
"Where is all this private-sector investment? All but one of the construction projects I've seen, as noted in my earlier post, are under outright government ownership. From what I have heard, the one exception - the commercial development by the E/J terminal - has gotten large direct taxpayer subsidies, not mere tax breaks. You can correct me if my information is wrong. You want to see ample private sector development, look around most any suburban commercial area. Don't expect to see much if any of that in Downtown Jamaica.
There is no difference between a tax break, when large enough, and a direct subsidy. When a large corporation doesn't have to pay any taxes because it decided to stay in a Manhattan office building, govt. is putting money directly to their bottom line.
Well, yes, there is a difference. The cost of a tax break is an opportunity cost - the city loses the amount of tax that would have been paid by the property that would have been built on the site if no breaks had been granted. In some cases, especially in Midtown, that can be a major loss, as the sites in question may be attractive to many developers even without tax breaks (and no, I do not blindly support the idea of handing out tax breaks - it has its merits in some circumstances but by and large has gone too far). As far as Downtown Jamaica is concerned, however, these opportunity costs probably aren't too great. A direct subsidy, in contrast, isn't just a "what if" loss but represents a direct infusion of taxpayer money. While subsidies of this sort might pay off in the long run, by encouraging non-subsidized development, there are no guarantees. And it's also likely that a subsidized development also will get ample tax exemptions.
"The cost of a tax break is an opportunity cost - the city loses the amount of tax that would have been paid by the property that would have been built on the site if no breaks had been granted."
Correct. Right from the textbook. But here's where you got it wrong:
"As far as Downtown Jamaica is concerned, however, these opportunity costs probably aren't too great. A direct subsidy, in contrast, isn't just a "what if" loss but represents a direct infusion of taxpayer money."
Also incurs an opportunity cost, by definition. The money could have been spent on other projects; on reducing budget deficits; on rebate checks to taxpayers, etc.
"While subsidies of this sort might pay off in the long run, by encouraging non-subsidized development, there are no guarantees."
This is also true in midtown Manhattan. How many companies jumped ship as soon as the subsidy ran out, or perhaps despite it, with their lawyers backing them up and fighting the city in court?
As to the government's projects: They had to go somewhere! MTA has a large headquarters in Manhattan. The Port Authority has headquarters at the World Trade Center. The Schools are headquarted in Brooklyn. Since the FAA needed functions in the area anyway (near JFK) Jamaica is a logical place for them. They would have been established anyway; why not in Jamaica? Good for the neighborhood, and good for the city.
Your comments regarding Jamaica reflect a fair amount of misunderstanding, and perhaps prejudice as well, though I can't tell the latter for sure.
As far as Downtown Jamaica is concerned, however, these opportunity costs probably aren't too great. A direct subsidy, in contrast, isn't just a "what if" loss but represents a direct infusion of taxpayer money.
Also incurs an opportunity cost, by definition. The money could have been spent on other projects; on reducing budget deficits; on rebate checks to taxpayers, etc.
True, and it supports my basic claim - that subsidized development is (sorry, Martha) not a Good Thing. Whether it's better than no development at all is one of those largely unanswerable "it depends" questions.
While subsidies of this sort might pay off in the long run, by encouraging non-subsidized development, there are no guarantees.
This is also true in midtown Manhattan. How many companies jumped ship as soon as the subsidy ran out, or perhaps despite it, with their lawyers backing them up and fighting the city in court?
Again, you've supported my position.
As to the government's projects: They had to go somewhere! MTA has a large headquarters in Manhattan. The Port Authority has headquarters at the World Trade Center. The Schools are headquarted in Brooklyn. Since the FAA needed functions in the area anyway (near JFK) Jamaica is a logical place for them. They would have been established anyway; why not in Jamaica? Good for the neighborhood, and good for the city.
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not opposed to the idea of putting needed government developments in Downtown Jamaica or anywhere else in the city. My point is simply that because almost all major development in Downtown Jamaica is government-owned or government-subsidized, the fact that you see a lot of construction in the area does not mean that the area is economically healthy. It might indeed become more prosperous in years to come thanks to all the government development, and will start attracting private unsubsidized development, but that remains to be seen.
BTW, the FAA building is right near the airport, not in Downtown Jamaica. You might be confusing it with the new FDA lab building, which is much closer to Downtown, just off the LIRR's Atlantic branch where it leaves the mainline.
Your comments regarding Jamaica reflect a fair amount of misunderstanding, and perhaps prejudice as well, though I can't tell the latter for sure.
I don't consider my points to reflect misunderstanding at all. As far as prejudice is concerned, I have no particular bias for or against the area.
So, if I am to understand you corrctly, you don't like subsidies or tax breaks anywhere.
If that is the case, then we wouldneed to eliminate them - the trouble is, the poorer areas would get hacked off first.
As long as there is corporate welfare, I will welcome subsidized development in poor areas.
So, if I am to understand you corrctly, you don't like subsidies or tax breaks anywhere.
If that is the case, then we wouldneed to eliminate them - the trouble is, the poorer areas would get hacked off first.
As long as there is corporate welfare, I will welcome subsidized development in poor areas.
I am not opposed to subsidies and tax breaks in all instances. Under the appropriate circumstances, they can be very useful in spurring job creation and neighborhood development - indeed, that may end up happening in Downtown Jamaica, although it's much too early to tell for sure. All I've been trying to say is that the rapid pace of development in the area is not a good indicator of economic growth because almost all of the development is government-owned or subsidized. That in no way makes the development "bad."
What I do deplore in most instances is the city's practice of giving huge tax breaks to cunning (and usually highly profitable) corporations that mutter vague threats about moving to Jersey City or elsewhere. New York is hardly the only offender, of course. It would be very nice to see a political leader with enough courage to call the bluff the next time a corporation makes such an extortion effort. Don't hold your breath waiting, however. Most politicians aren't known for being risk-takers, and they'd be too scared that one of the corporations actually would relocate.
"I am not opposed to subsidies and tax breaks in all instances. Under the appropriate circumstances, they can be very useful in spurring job creation and neighborhood development - indeed, that may end up happening in Downtown Jamaica, although it's much too early to tell for sure."
While I agree with your sentiments, I think downtown Jamaica has proven itself nicely. You can choose to close your eyes to progress, if you like, of course.
Part of the problemwith your evaluation stems from this: In fact, there are very few areas in the country - never mind New York City - where this kind of development does not occur. Friendly zoning boards which look the other way, developments where environmental mitigation is not enforced, land which is procured from govt. on the cheap, below market value, all contribute to our current situation.
In short, there are very few examples of economic development where govt. authorities are not involved, and offer direct or indirect economic incentives. The purely private economic development in areas in "starter mode" simply does not exist. It's pointless to wish for it.
"All I've been trying to say is that the rapid pace of development in the area is not a good indicator of economic growth because almost all of the development is government-owned or subsidized. That in no way makes the development "bad."
Welcome to the whole world, Peter.
Similiar investments would've been stimulated by rehabbing the entire J line, as has been done already to the existing portion. And at a fraction of the cost than the construction of Archer Ave.
"Similiar investments would've been stimulated by rehabbing the entire J line, as has been done already to the existing portion. And at a fraction of the cost than the construction of Archer Ave."
Except that the re-route of the J (and the E) to Archer Av and Jamaica Station required a new line anyway. And there are problems when you rehab elevated stations to ADA standards, such as finding space for elevators and ramps without blocking sidewalks etc. etc. Sometimes building an entirely new station is, from an engineering standpoint, more feasible.
And a lot of residents were strongly in favor of getting an underground line. Hell, I'd be too. They were not in favor of losing subway service, and the interruption was bad news.
Now, I am not against rehabbing Els per se. SEPTA is spending $180 million over four years to reconstruct the Market-Frankford's west Philly line from a standard bridge geometry to a T-bent design, and several stations will become ADA-compliant. This will be easier on traffic. I do not know if this is the total cost of the project, though -only that this is the money being spent from '01 to '04. Some of the money is already committed by the state, but I don't know if all of it is officially available yet (eg the federal portions...
I'm sure every neighborhood would prefer an subway over an el. This isn't justification to spend billions of dollars to dig tunnels.
168th St. could've easily been upgraded to ADA standards. This is another foolish reason to raze a perfectly functional el.
"I'm sure every neighborhood would prefer an subway over an el. This isn't justification to spend billions of dollars to dig tunnels."
Realigning the whole route to integrate it with the LIRR is a good reason. And this is a democracy, so if the neighborhood (600,000 people live in SE Queens and are affected, directly and indirectly, by subway and LIRR services) wants the line removed and rebuilt, that cannot be dismissed with a wave of the hand.
"168th St. could've easily been upgraded to ADA standards. This is another foolish reason to raze a perfectly functional el"
That's one station. And I've met a lot of people in YOUR neighborhood who don't think that El was as "peerfectly functional" as you thought it was. They thought it was a piece of junk. They saw the subway as vital, but they needed it replaced. The ten year gap was terrible, no question. But that's over with now, so why rant about it?
Everything was a piece of junk in the mid 1970's. If that's your rationale for the el's demolition, then all evelated structures should've been demolished.
And it wasn't a majority who decided that the el should go. It was a well connected and powerful minority.
I'm probably the most well versed person on this particular subject in here. So I know what I'm talking about.
"And it wasn't a majority who decided that the el should go. It was a well connected and powerful minority."
That's a line a lot of people use when they think something is unfair. In some cases it's true, and in some cases, not true. Which minority do you blame here?
"I'm probably the most well versed person on this particular subject in here. So I know what I'm talking about."
You're a long way from proving that. But this is Subtalk, not a university classroom, so you're not required to.
Of course, I should stress that you're entitled to your opinion. I'm clearly not going to move you over to my position, so perhaps the best thing to do here is agree to disagree.
That's a line a lot of people use when they think something is unfair. In some cases it's true, and in some cases, not true. Which minority do you blame here?
The owners of Macys and Gertz. They had the political clout to do it.
"The owners of Macys and Gertz. They had the political clout to do it."
That they had clout, by themselves, is beyond question. How much? Well, you think more clout than I would give them credit for.
The owners of both companies gave a lot of $$$ to John Lindsey's mayoral campaigns. We all know what drives private interests to do this.
And it's ironic that neither store lasted much longer than the El anyway, isn't it?
How did they expect to attract shoppers without cars once the train was gone?
Beats me. Perhaps they thought busses would work, as this area is criss-crossed with dozens of bus routes. But if a bus is gonna be used, you might as well go to a more upscale area, like Green Acres (which is EXACTLY what happened. The el's closure was a boon for this mall).
When I was living in Richmond Hill a while back, the Jamaica El stopped at Sutphin Blvd, but the J was running only to 121, ironically, my home station. Queens Blvd and Metro Ave were still there. It took me years to learn that the line went all the way to 168th. Which explained why the Q49 was always waiting at the bottom of the stairs going to 168. Here's a funny story. One day I wanted to ride the J all the way to QB, but when the train came in at Fulton, it was in terrible shape. It was like every single wheel on the train had a flat spot! I am not kidding. I got as far as Eastern Parkway before I went home. I couldn't take the ride and the noise any more. I wish I was well versed in subway car model numbers, but this was an OLD car from the 70's.
The portion from 121st to Sutphin, stood unused until at least 1998. In fact, it was still there, even after Archer Avenue line was opened. I was next in the neighborhood in late 1990, by which time the only sign of the El above 121st were the short street lights and an usused (looks from the 1950s) substation.
Excuse me. I typed "1998" above. I meant "1988".
I recall that the "J" line was cut from Queens Blvd to 121 St in April 1985. Some "J" trains actually began service at 111 St, and there were some lay-ups at 121 at and on the tracks heading towards Metropolitan Av-Jamaica. Before the MTA tore down Metro. and QB, the structure was a sad green sight!! Before Parsons/Archer opened, the Q49 shuttle bus serviced the passengers for the defunct Jamaica Av stations (I think I still have one of the transfers--they looked like skee-ball tickets!!). I don't think that the loss of "EL" service caused a business slowdown in Jamaica during that time, it was just one of those neighborhoods with major problems. It's a lot nicer now, esp along Jamaica Ave--nice shops, clean streets, a nice park along the way, etc.
That substation (at 143 Place & Jamaica Ave) now feeds the Archer Ave subway, so they've made good use of it. It was built in 1966.
Well, it is gratifying to know that it didn't go to waste. I saw it 1992, and knew it wasn't old, at least not in subway terms.
When they built it 1966, did they know the El wouldn't last too much longer?
I don't think so. As I recall, the first proposed plans for the Archer Ave subway didn't come out until 1968.
The infamous "1968 Plan for Action". Another pie-in-the-sky transit plan that were tossed around before the budget crisis of 1975.
I moved out of RH in 1988, moved to OV in 1989. The old EL was still there. I'm not sure as to when they actually took it down, but when I was on the Q56 one day, I was shocked to see that the EL was gone. The good part was when Parsons/Archer opened, they started getting rid of the redbirds that were a common sight on the line. The best thing they ever did was to leave one door open on each car to keep the heat in during the early am at 121.
I rode on a J out to Parsons/Archer in 1990. At that time, the abandoned el structure was being dismantled. The girders had been removed, but the support columns and cross beams were still standing.
Good riddance to the whole El. If it was raining, and you're waiting for the Q56 at Queens Blvd/Jamaica, you had to watch out for the torrent of water coming down from the abandoned station overhead.
I remember the night they were to close the LIRR main line for a few hours to remove the horizontal gidres crossing the LIRR. The closure lasted longer than expected becuase of some engineering problem - forgot the details.
Yeah, it was an absolute eyesore at the end. But I'm glad it lasted as long as it did as I got a wonderful chance to explore the whole thing. I even have an incandescent light fixture from Queens Blvd. sitting in my basement.
"I even have an incandescent light fixture from Queens Blvd. sitting in my basement."
Is it hooked up and working?
No. Can't get those reverse-threaded bulbs.
The section from the turnoff to the ramp down to Archer Ave to the edge of Supthin Blvd (where demolition ended after the first closure on 9/77) was demolished in late 1990-early 1991. The Metropolitan Ave mezzanine had become a notorious crackhouse in the late 1980's.
"The section from the turnoff to the ramp down to Archer Ave to the edge of Supthin Blvd (where demolition ended after the first closure on 9/77) was demolished in late 1990-early 1991. The Metropolitan Ave mezzanine had become a notorious crackhouse in the late 1980's."
This would be the portion you're not still pining away for...:0)
Well if it was still in use the crackheads wouldn't have used it.
"Well if it was still in use the crackheads wouldn't have used it."
You're right. They were too busy mugging, stabbing and shooting the people who did.
Those wonderful R16's on life support, man! Monuments to transit neglect.
Sounds like you were on an R16!
Does that mean the lower level tracks do not curve right under the LIRR as the upper level-tracks do ?
Correct.
That's right. The upper-level tracks were intended to connect with LIRR ROW to Rosedale, but the limited budgets and an FRA in crack-down mode nixed that plan.
What about today? is it possible to route the E trains there now that the FRA has loosen it's grip on the MTA[LIRR]?
I don't think that grip has been loosened. Moreover, other posters have written on this site that LIRR has had second thoughts about giving up part of its track to subway trains.
I would have been for this new subway, but I can understand why LIRR is not thrilled with it.
The E train can also be extended underground, in the same direcion - but it would be a lot more expensive and wouldn't go as far. Perhaps a better use of available money (assuming the money was available to be spent on the Archer Av trains) would be for extension of the J to cover more fully the Jamaica business district.
This Guy is right.In 1985 the J train was on the brinks of meeting the MJ fait.If the Archer avenue extension wasnt made everything north of 111 street would be demolished(at 121 street there was nothing besides stores,middle class people with their own cars and lirr tracks).Though with the opening of the Archer avenue extension the F also saw a decline in ridership(which would be the reaso there's no Hillside express)because there was a closer conection to the lirr(Ridership might increase when the Airtrain is open).
In 1995(you should know how many years ago the archer avenue extension was open) the J and Z grossed in enough money to build a 2nd avenue line from Delancey street to houston(which is not a great distace).All in all the J came a long way from its status in 1985.
This Guy is right.In 1985 the J train was on the brinks of meeting the MJ fait.If the Archer avenue extension wasnt made everything north of 111 street would be demolished(at 121 street there was nothing besides stores,middle class people with their own cars and lirr tracks).Though with the opening of the Archer avenue extension the F also saw a decline in ridership(which would be the reaso there's no Hillside express)because there was a closer conection to the lirr(Ridership might increase when the Airtrain is open).
In 1995(you should know how many years ago the archer avenue extension was open) the J and Z grossed in enough money to build a 2nd avenue line from Delancey street to houston(which is not a great distace).All in all the J came a long way from its status in 1985.
I know.Its dumb.I couldnt get my info straight to make it good.
This was all part of the MTA's master plan for subway expantion.The 1968 MTA Program For Action had about 11 new routes planned for NYC. The Archer Avenue complex was part of the larger Queens Superexpress route plan.It called for the removal of the Jamaica el from ENY to Jamaica with the line relocated to subway[part of an earlier plan]under Jamaica ave.THIS plan was revised to the cuts from 121 st to 168 st. When the store owners gained wind of this,they were all for it.New subway service?...Getting rid of that old beat up EL? SURE!! With that,the MTA got the green light. What they didn't know,with the removal of the EL,getting to the shopping center would be hard as hell and the nearest line[Hillside E/F] WAS BLOCKS AWAY! No direct subway service, sales fell off,the area went to heck,stores went bust[Macys,gertz etc...]New subway construction was to start under Archer ave near Sutphin blvd in 1972,and the TA made plans to cut service on the Jamaica line. By now, the grand subway plan was going bust and the city was going broke. All the new route were cancelled except the ARCHER AVE,63rd street crosstown and the Southeast Jamaica line to Springfield Gardens. There's more but Iguess you guys already know the rest. Never the less, the Archer was finished[minus the Spingfield branch]Jamaica was fixed up[how nice] and there's still a gap in train service in Jamaica[the J needs to be pushed to Merrick Blvd or further] thanks for listening.
The money got somehow misplaced in all that time, right? NY politics as usual. I hope that someday the lins that were proposed come into being, even if I am either too old or in a cemetary to ride them.
That gives me an idea.
There should be hearse trains for those railfans who want to ride one last time.
That reminds me of RFKs funeral in 1968. Talk about a hearse train! From NY to Washington the NE Corridor. All televised. One of the strangest things I've ever witnessed. I wonder if RFK was a railfan?
Peace,
ANDEE
Same thing with FDR in 1945.
In the early part of the 20th Century there was a funeral service on the Chicago L, on the Met-West Side Company I think. What some of us call a combine [baggage-coach car] was the funeral car itself, complete with chapel style stained glass windows on the baggage doors and the coach portion with wicker chairs lounge style.
That would be "Going In Style" for a railfan; of course improved roads and vehicles put an end to the train service to the promised land in that area.
Good movie too...Going in Style..couple of R32's on the E in it but story itself good.
My aunt sent me a clipping of that hearse train. I still have it somewhere.
>>> In the early part of the 20th Century there was a funeral service on the Chicago L <<<
Yesterday evening I was watching a TV show about the Orange Empire Railroad Museum. It included a view of a funeral streetcar which is located there and was used in Los Angeles in the early part of the 20th Century. It had fancy cut glass in the windows, and near the front of the car on the right side behind the operator's position were small doors just below shoulder height which opened to allow a coffin to be slid into the car from the side. The rest of the car had seats for the family and mourners. The narrator said that some cemeteries of the day had rail spurs leading into them so the funeral car could enter the grounds. The narrator went on to say that streetcar funerals were common then as an alternative to a horse drawn hearse, and at least one funeral of a well known civic leader had a cortege of 30 streetcars following the funeral car.
Tom
Wrong, Wrong. The el's demolition was silly. It was a viable transit line, only to replaced by one underground. And at what cost? Billions of dollars? Money which could've been better spent fixing the infrastructure, which was falling apart in the 1970's. Or perhaps used to build a line where the need was greater, like 2nd Ave.
Jamaica residents would've been better served with the retention of full E/F service to 179th St, with a skip/stop J/Z line from 168th.
"Wrong, Wrong. The el's demolition was silly. It was a viable transit line, only to replaced by one underground. And at what cost? Billions of dollars? Money which could've been better spent fixing the infrastructure, which was falling apart in the 1970's. Or perhaps used to build a line where the need was greater, like 2nd Ave."
As a transit line the route was viable, with a lot of demand. No question. But the move to relocate it and integrate Sutphin Blvd station with LIRR's Jamaica Station was very smart. Joining the E to it was also smart, and the new station at Jamaica Hospital was a much welcomed addition. Putting it underground was expensive, but reduced noise pollution and clutter on the streets and let some sunshine in, so to speak. The merchants didn't like not having subway service for a long time, but NYC's financial collapse was not foreseen at the time the project was started. Maybe you like living right next to a century-old elevated (and I grew up next to one) but a lot of people appreciate the relative "quiet" advantage that an underground line offers.
Virtually no one except for a few subway nostalgics who post on this site pines for the elevated bridge. It isn't missed, and once the subway replaced it, it had no purpose save for the recycleable steel. There were many who wished the money had been there to replace some of the elevated west of 121 St with subway. Plus, the new stations are spacious, much better designed for customer comfort, ADA-compliant, and Jamaica Center has a lot of bus-transfer bays built into it. Had the project been on-time and on-budget, few would have complained, and even those would have clammed up if the train had a terminal at Merrick or further. So rant here, then get over it. Everyone else already did years ago.
Personally, I would like to see the J extended to Merrick Blvd. and beyond. Maybe one day.
Wrong, Wrong. The el's demolition was silly. It was a viable transit line, only to replaced by one underground. And at what cost? Billions of dollars? Money which could've been better spent fixing the infrastructure, which was falling apart in the 1970's. Or perhaps used to build a line where the need was greater, like 2nd Ave.
As a transit line the route was viable, with a lot of demand. No question. But the move to relocate it and integrate Sutphin Blvd station with LIRR's Jamaica Station was very smart. Joining the E to it was also smart, and the new station at Jamaica Hospital was a much welcomed addition. Putting it underground was expensive, but reduced noise pollution and clutter on the streets and let some sunshine in, so to speak. The merchants didn't like not having subway service for a long time, but NYC's financial collapse was not foreseen at the time the project was started.
You're still missing the point. No one's going to deny that the Archer Avenue subway has many advantages over the Jamaica Avenue El. Whether building the subway was the best use of resources, well, that's another question entirely, but it's not the real issue. What is the important point is the fact that the El was demolished more than a decade before Archer Avenue was ready to open. That didn't involve any unforeseen circumstances; from what I have gathered, everyone knew that there would be a very long time gap in which Downtown Jamaica would be without transit service. Yet the El came down nonetheless. That's sheer idiocy.
"You're still missing the point. No one's going to deny that the Archer Avenue subway has many advantages over the Jamaica Avenue El. Whether building the subway was the best use of resources, well, that's another question entirely, but it's not the real issue. What is the important point is the fact that the El was demolished more than a decade before Archer Avenue was ready to open."
I didn't miss the point at all, Peter. I agree with that statement. I said as much; you didn't read my posts carefully.
" That didn't involve any unforeseen circumstances; from what I have gathered, everyone knew that there would be a very long time gap in which Downtown Jamaica would be without transit service. Yet the El came down nonetheless. That's sheer idiocy."
What exactly did you gather? You're very fond of pointing to the MTA, and saying Stupid, Stupid,Stupid, on everything. (Ultimately, if you say that enough times, people look at that and start to wonder about you instead - a fact of life)
I don't hold NYCTA blameless, but there's no denying that, had the city not collapsed financially in the 1970's you would have seen that project, and more of the 63rd St line, completed a lot sooner. Mayor Beame, to avoid a 5 cent fare hike, forfeited $1 billion in federal construction money that could have been applied to the project by switching $280 million out of the transit capital accounts and into operating accounts. A foolish move.
That didn't involve any unforeseen circumstances; from what I have gathered, everyone knew that there would be a very long time gap in which Downtown Jamaica would be without transit service. Yet the El came down nonetheless. That's sheer idiocy.
What exactly did you gather? You're very fond of pointing to the MTA, and saying Stupid, Stupid,Stupid, on everything. (Ultimately, if you say that enough times, people look at that and start to wonder about you instead - a fact of life)
I don't hold NYCTA blameless, but there's no denying that, had the city not collapsed financially in the 1970's you would have seen that project, and more of the 63rd St line, completed a lot sooner. Mayor Beame, to avoid a 5 cent fare hike, forfeited $1 billion in federal construction money that could have been applied to the project by switching $280 million out of the transit capital accounts and into operating accounts. A foolish move.
Go back in time to the late 1970's. The City's finances are still a mess, the Beame Shuffle is fresh in everyone's mind, and it's obvious that it's going to take many years to complete the Archer Avenue line. Yet the MTA goes ahead and demolishes the still-serviceable Jamaica Avenue El. I simply cannot comprehend how anyone with an I.Q. score over 75 would have approved that plan. "Idiocy" is, if anything, too mild a word.
"Go back in time to the late 1970's. The City's finances are still a mess, the Beame Shuffle is fresh in everyone's mind, and it's obvious that it's going to take many years to complete the Archer Avenue line. Yet the MTA goes ahead and demolishes the still-serviceable Jamaica Avenue El. I simply cannot comprehend how anyone with an I.Q. score over 75 would have approved that plan. "Idiocy" is, if anything, too mild a word."
Have you considered the possibility that part of what was involved was a desire to reduce maintenance expenses? I am not saying I agree with what they did, but some of it may have been forced by financial constraints. The Nassau St line today is being reconstructed to remove maintenance liabilities from certain stretches of track. Is it possible the Jamaica demolition was a larger version of this? Plus, shorter route = fewer train cars needed for that route.
I agree it was bad news - but to point blame entirely at MTA requires putting on blinders and not seeing anything else.
Or perhaps
Go back in time to the late 1970's. The City's finances are still a mess, the Beame Shuffle is fresh in everyone's mind, and it's obvious that it's going to take many years to complete the Archer Avenue line. Yet the MTA goes ahead and demolishes the still-serviceable Jamaica Avenue El. I simply cannot comprehend how anyone with an I.Q. score over 75 would have approved that plan. "Idiocy" is, if anything, too mild a word.
Have you considered the possibility that part of what was involved was a desire to reduce maintenance expenses? I am not saying I agree with what they did, but some of it may have been forced by financial constraints. The Nassau St line today is being reconstructed to remove maintenance liabilities from certain stretches of track. Is it possible the Jamaica demolition was a larger version of this? Plus, shorter route = fewer train cars needed for that route.
Anything's possible, but I'd say that was quite a stretch. Remember that the Jamaica El was still in good condition at the time of its demolition and presumably needed no more than routine maintenance. Sure, there were some savings to be realized, but it must have been obvious that Jamaica's loss of transit service would be too high a price to pay.
"Anything's possible, but I'd say that was quite a stretch. Remember that the Jamaica El was still in good condition at the time of its demolition and presumably needed no more than routine maintenance."
That appears to be controversial. I've heard the opposite.
"Sure, there were some savings to be realized, but it must have been obvious that Jamaica's loss of transit service would be too high a price to pay."
The long term costs were greater than the short-term savings. Save a penny, squander $100, to be sure. as to who is ultimately responsible for the decision, well ?????
But, what the hell, it's in the past now...
That appears to be controversial. I've heard the opposite.
You'd be wrong. The portion that was demolished was in no greater state of disrepair than any other dual contract era box girder elevated anywhere else in the city at that time.
"You'd be wrong. The portion that was demolished was in no greater state of disrepair than any other dual contract era box girder elevated anywhere else in the city at that time."
Me and a lot of other people.
Granted, some of those would undoubtedly have been reacting to the offer of an underground line, as in "gee this bridge is ugly and unsightly. Let's get a new subway instead." That is different than saying the bridge was unserviceable. But others had that opinion...
I'm not saying people liked the el. What I'm saying is the portion that is now gone wasn't in any greater state of disrepair than the surviving portion, or the nearby Liberty Ave. el, or the Culver line, etc. It's physical condition cannot be used as a legitimate reason to justify the closure.
I watched Jamaica decline and decay after the el was removed with my own 2 eyes. Granted, it wasn't the only reason, and the area has rebounded somewhat in recent years. But was it really worth it? Billions of dollars spent, businesses ruined, etc? I say no.
We'll agree to disagree on the closure per se.
"I watched Jamaica decline and decay after the el was removed with my own 2 eyes. Granted, it wasn't the only reason, and the area has rebounded somewhat in recent years. But was it really worth it? Billions of dollars spent, businesses ruined, etc? I say no."
That must have hurt a lot. And the specific way it happened sucked big time. We don't disagree there.
If we put it in perspective, the Archer Av project was but one aspect of a much larger set of state-funded Capital Plans (which started in 1982). Coordination/continuity with prior work done was probably less than ideal.
I saw Jamaica before in the mid 1980's, and then periodically after the Archer Av line opened for business. I got a chance to do some effective lobbying and pushed very hard for AirTrain beggining with the 1994 PA announcement that it was on the table.
Since we can't go back in time, the best we can do is look at the baseline condition now and do what we can to advocate for progress. There is plenty of reason for hope.
If we put it in perspective, the Archer Av project was but one aspect of a much larger set of state-funded Capital Plans (which started in 1982). Coordination/continuity with prior work done was probably less than ideal
I think the whole plan was foolish to begin with. Adding transit is smart. Replacing one form for another when other more pressing needs exist is an idiotic way of thinking. The only parts of the whole Archer Ave. project which made sense are the parts that were NOT built. No part of the current complex provides subway access to areas that didn't have it before. It's hard to tell Upper East side riders that their badly needed 2nd Ave. subway is still but an imaginary line on an engineer's map, only to watch billions of dollars spent to make Jamaica Ave. more "sunny and quiet".
"I think the whole plan was foolish to begin with. Adding transit is smart. Replacing one form for another when other more pressing needs exist is an idiotic way of thinking."
You feel that way because you perceived this project as desrving of lower priority. Other people disagreed with you, and some of them might have said not doing this project is idiotic. I maintain that realigning the subway to integrate it with LIRR, bringing in a new service(the E train), and placing everything underground was smart. This project also enhanced the value of the new AirTrain terminal (though that was not on the table in the mid-eighties) by offering not one but two subway lines connecting to it.
"The only parts of the whole Archer Ave. project which made sense are the parts that were NOT built."
I'm sorry those parts were not built, but I find the attitude you express to be narrow minded and short-sighted, every bit as short-sighted as the person(s) who decided to end subway service before the Archer Av service was ready to go.
"No part of the current complex provides subway access to areas that didn't have it before."
That's partly true. It offers the area easier access to Queens Blvd. subway service than it had before, and encourages ridership on both subway and LIRR.
"It's hard to tell Upper East side riders that their badly needed 2nd Ave. subway is still but an imaginary line on an engineer's map, only to watch billions of dollars spent to make Jamaica Ave. more "sunny and quiet."
I've spent a lot of effort with politicians and business people, on the phone, by postal service, in meetings, pushing them to get the 2nd Av Subway on the map. I refuse to give up on it. But even I will concede that finishing a worthy project already started (in 1972) would have to take priority over a new one.
But hey, it's over, alright, dude? Move on with your life.
Want to help bring 2nd Av to reality? I can send you contact information, if you're truly interested. You can make a difference.
Oh, and I forgot to mention this:
Before Archer Av, the only way to go north-south on the subway, say from Queens to Brooklyn, was the G train (excluding Manhattan).
Archer Av provides a (partial) way to do that now on the eastern side of the subway map. That's noteworthy in and of itself.
But it still is not a sufficient reason to do what was done. Even collectively, all the little advantages of Archer Ave. can never justify the expenditure that was made on it's construction.
"But it still is not a sufficient reason to do what was done. Even collectively, all the little advantages of Archer Ave. can never justify the expenditure that was made on it's construction."
A lot of people disagreed with you then and disagree with you now. Overall, a large majority supported the overall project (though all of us wish the process had been easier)- even if Macy's had a lot to do with one specific aspect: tearing the bridge down early (assuming your version of events is correct, a controversial view).
I wholeheartedly disagree. No advantage justified the expense in any sane argument.
I guess we can leave it at that.
I do like your passion though. Do you want contact info for Second Av proponents and state legislative staff? They could use somebody like you, if you're willing to show that passion outside Subtalk.
Just let me know...
Unfortunatley, my family and job concerns leave me little time fior anything else. I'm more of an armchair railfan these days. Thank God for the Internet!
I don't buy this argument either. The demolition cost money. Building a new switch complex and crew quarters at Queens Blvd cost money. New signs, new maps, etc. cost money. Considering that the Jamaica Ave el never recieved any noticable kind of maintenance until just before Archer Ave. opened is the final end to this point.
I never understood the logic behind the way the el was closed anyway. Why not leave the whole thing intact until construction necessitated the el's cutback to 121st St (1985)? What was the logic in truncating the line to Queens Blvd, merely for 7 years?
I'm gonna speculate here. I guess since the line was set to turn after 121st, as in fact it does, they need to cut in there. But we both know that, and in 1985, construction was actually in progress. I guess the FIRST cutback was done simply to placate the crooked dept stores and realtors who were so desperate to "improve" their neighborhood by making it less accesible. They couldn't wait a few years for any construction to get going, and had the same worldview as East Side realtors in the 1950s.
Getting rid of the El was all they cared about. But back to my original question here- did MTA/TA go along with this easily or did they try to fight it?
Which leads me to mention the obvious answer: political clout of those who wanted the el gone ASAP.
Wasn't there any serious opposition at all to letting this happen?
I understand the benefits of the current Archer Ave. line. What I'm saying is that they are insignificant when compared to the cost of construction and the disruption of Jamaica Ave. service, which killed Jamaica forever as a retail and shopper's paradise.
You really don't have a clue about your own neighborhood, do you?
It's not necessary to resort to personal insults. Lets just agree that you know as much about Jamaica as I do about Bayside.
"It's not necessary to resort to personal insults. Lets just agree that you know as much about Jamaica as I do about Bayside."
No personal insult was intended. Bayside is a good place to get to know. Have you been around Oakland Lake and the Riedel Wildflower Meadow and to Alley Pond Environmental Center? Being summer, it's a good time to check it out (assuming you haven't already). Bring a bike.
I hope you'll join me in forgiving Bayside for not having any subways. :0)
It's not necessary to resort to personal insults. Lets just agree that you know as much about Jamaica as I do about Bayside.
No personal insult was intended. Bayside is a good place to get to know. Have you been around Oakland Lake and the Riedel Wildflower Meadow and to Alley Pond Environmental Center? Being summer, it's a good time to check it out (assuming you haven't already). Bring a bike.
I hope you'll join me in forgiving Bayside for not having any subways.
Bayside has done just fine without subway service. Downtown Jamaica was and is a very different sort of area, and unfortunately was grievously wounded by its decade without transit service.
"Bayside has done just fine without subway service."
No doubt. I think it would do better with it, esp. if the line paralleled the LIE or served Springfield Blvd.
But that's my personal opinion....
Is the switch tower still at Jamaica Avenue @ 166th Street on the corner with other buildings ?
I agree!!
Oh boy, my favorite subject!!!
It was the owners of Mays and Gertz which led the fight to remove the el. Many of the smaller businesses rightfully had concerns about the quick removal of the major transportation their customers used to reach the area.
This move, even after Archer Ave opened, was perhaps the dumbest mass transit move ever made. No reason existed to tear down the el. It wasn't in any state of physical deterioration (as the Bronx 3rd. Ave el and the Culver line were). I hope those responsible for this debacle rot in hell, their searing souls tortured throughout infinity as maggots eat their rotting bodies, reducing the remains to a feculant pile of biomatter.
"This move, even after Archer Ave opened, was perhaps the dumbest mass transit move ever made. No reason existed to tear down the el. It wasn't in any state of physical deterioration (as the Bronx 3rd. Ave el and the Culver line were). I hope those responsible for this debacle rot in hell, their searing souls tortured throughout infinity as maggots eat their rotting bodies, reducing the remains to a feculant pile of biomatter."
Do you live in Los Angeles, by any chance? Beyond knowing a little about who owns which store, you don't seem to have a clue about the neighborhood...
No, I actually live along Jamaica Ave all my life, a lot closer to the neighborhood than you do if your handle is accurate.
"No, I actually live along Jamaica Ave all my life, a lot closer to the neighborhood than you do if your handle is accurate."
I visited often. More importantly, I paid attention. :-)
Not to anything related to this subject, dude.
"Not to anything related to this subject, dude."
Try paying attention yourself, sometime, and you'll see... :0)
>>> I hope those responsible for this debacle rot in hell, their searing souls tortured throughout infinity as maggots eat their rotting bodies, reducing the remains to a feculant pile of biomatter. <<<
Gee, Chris, instead of waffling on the matter, you should have let us know whether you thought tearing down the El was a bad decision. :-)
Tom
I feel as if you are holding something back from us.
Wouldn't you feel better if you let it out, say whats really on your mind.
Drag your demonds from the dark into the light, free your soul.
This is not the time to use clever phrases to mask whats on your mind.
Its time to release.
LET GO!
avid
Gee, I had no idea this topic would produce THIS much discussion, though I'm glad it did.
Personally, while I never lived an area served by this line, I totally oppose the idea that a neighborhood would be "improved" by loss of a transit resource. While I don't have a position on whether this neighborhood's been brought back by private, public, or subsidized investment (my personal preference is for unsubsidized private efforts), I think it could have been done with the EL in place. Rehabbing it would not only have been far cheaper than building Archer Ave, but that line of thinking is why the East Side of Manhattan is so underserved! Just "get rid of the ugly EL!". If we SubTalkers support that line of reasoning, certainly that makes it way too easy for a financially strapped TA to work with self-interested, short-term realtors to get rid of other needed service. How long did the major stores stay in Jamaica after the El was gone?
For example, if Bushwick and Bed Stuy are ever to be rescued from poverty, taking away peoples' way to get to work is NOT a solution.
I'm glad that some people here agree with me on that.
>>For example, if Bushwick and Bed Stuy are ever to be rescued from poverty, taking away peoples' way to get to work is NOT a solution.<<
That Bed Stuy is completely 'poverty stricken' is a misbelief of many people: some blocks look horrible, and others are very nice. Look at Fulton St., where the A and C trains run below the street. The street is known for it's stores, and the city has just announced plans to help try to get more 'chain stores' into that area.
I've walked through the mall areas on Fulton Street. Some of it looks a bit shabby, and somestores may not sell the kindsof things I would buy, but overall it looked pretty good. If merchants swept the sidewalk a bit more, picked up litter, made an effort to do a bit of "Spic'N'Span" on their blocks, it would look even more encouraging.
Went to Shea Stadium today. (Mets actually won again, behind some excellent pitching, and good hitting). Caught #7 at 74th street stop. Without thinking, I went into what appeared to be a car with seats. Guess what - 9335 is (of course) a single unit, fan equiped car!
My question is this (and be honest): How many of you out there are old enough to remember riding these cars when they were Blue and White (Bluebirds) and ALL the cars had fans?
I remember riding the #4 up to the Bronx in the early 1980's, during the middle of the summer. That was hot - I don'think people knew any better then. BTW, does anybody know how hot those cars actually got? I tell people 110 degrees, but this is just an estimate.
How hot the car got depended upon the number of people in the car and the ventilation. I'm sure sometimes the cars didn't get any hotter than the outside air if there weren't many people in the car but, when it was filled with people I'm sure that the car got pretty hot inside. Next time you should ride an R-33WF or a car with malfunctioning A/C bring along a thermometer and that may tell you how hot the car actually gets during hot weather.
BMTJeff
Easily 110 degrees. Coming back from Shea in the summer of 1966, I was on a #1 train R21 in July at rush hour. The fans were not working! My friend and I had to get off and wait for the next train. No circulation at all in the car. Maybe 125?
I wonder if many other suffering passengers stepped off that train at and waited to take the next train hoping that the fans were working? I bet plenty did just to get off a hot and stuffy train.
BMTJeff
>>>How many of you out there are old enough to remember riding these cars when they were Blue and White (Bluebirds) and ALL the cars had fans? <<
Oh, a wise guy, eh?
I can remember when trains had rattan seats and were built like tanks.
(before you make any age jokes, they were still running in the 1960's when I was in my early teens).
I remember the R-36s in their original teal and white paint. Not to mention the R-1/9s and BMT standards.
Of course, it could be worse. You could be stuck on an unbearably hot, crush loaded train, and have the heat come on.
true
Been there, sweated alot.
I was born in Queens, in 1968, and lived there till I was 11. I remember the blue paint vividly, but was less aware of the lack of AC. In those days, few cars other than R44-46 (and maybe R42?) had AC.
On Prime Ministers Questions tonite (C-Span, Channel 38 on the Time Warner system, Sundays at 9PM and 12 Midnite - Check it out it you haven't seen it - Really fun), an MP mentioned that his community was YIMBY - "Yes, in my backyard" for some sort of project.
Wouldn't that be great if somebody in New York City was YIMBY for anything??????!!!!!!!!!
What ever is proposed, no matter how much good it will do for the public (ie Second Avenue Subway), there will always be somebody who says no.
What about those idiots who were protesting the implosion of the gas tanks in English Kills.
Apparently, they were saying yes to keep dangerous, empty gas tanks in their backyard.
Same for the old tanks in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, which were imploded today.
--Mark
Those were the ones I was talking about. I use more specific neighborhood names.
I wouldn't go so far as to call those people 'idiots'. Why do you have to use such language?
Some of those people were indeed sentimental and wanted to keep the tanks for emotional/nostaligic reasons. But many were protesting the implosion because of health concerns over lead dust that would be released when the tanks collapsed. Being concerned doesn't make someone and 'idiot'.
BMTman
Is there anywhere I can find more about this controversey? I'ma chemistry teacher and this sort of thing can be useful in the classroom.
Mark
It's been all over the newspapers. Try doing a search of their on line versions.
Also, there is bound to be one of the neighborhood pseudo newspapers for that area. Give them a call.
The owner of the tanks also has a PR dept.
I want to ask about a few things. Apologies if they have been brought up already:
It seems like almost all of the lines except the G, N, M and R and C have more frequent service than the average.
G crowding unavailable?
N most crowded? 7 close to the least crowded? 6 better than average on crowding?
The G is funny, because you'll see a packed train going southbound during AM rush from 36th to Queens Plaza, and it's packed, then all of a sudden it's empty.
N is by far one of the worst lines in the city when it comes to overcrowding. So is the 6. 7 has been better lately, but you still need to get on the 7 at Times Square, or you won't get a seat at rush-hour. Many people at Grand Central just go back two stops to Times Square to get seat.
I think people ride the 7 back to TS just to get on. The L train is different though, people ride the L back to 8th Avenue to get a seat.
How is that different.
N Bwy
What he means is that the 7 train is so overcrowded, that a passenger riding from GCP to TS thinking he'll get a seat going back to Queens may actually get to TS, and discover that the train in the station has already filled every seat, so now there's only standing room.
And he's right. It's no exaggeration. The 7 is that busy.
True.
N
LOL. That's true. Can you believe that I once went back to Times Square on the 7 and could not get a seat on the waiting train, so I got back on the one I was on?
That is pretty ironic, considering that the Straphanger's report called the L more crowded than the 7.
>>> Many people at Grand Central just go back two stops to Times Square to get seat. <<<
I guess some things never change. Fifty years ago I did that regularly to get a spot at the railfan porthole on the R-15.
Tom
Anyone know what is happening to the removed roll signs from the scapped redbirds?
Most are being discarded, though I'm sure that quite a bit will be available at the Transit Museum for purchase.
Where are they being discarded? Is the dumpster, um, open to the public? Is there a way I could have one discarded into my mailbox? (I'll cover postage.)
What about the straps? I'd like one of those, too. A bench, also, but I don't really have anywhere to put it.
Get them at the SBK floats, where I picked up the roll signs from the R30s years back. They will be there soon enough, and plenty for everyone.
Field trip!
What is SBK floats? Please let me know.
South BrooKlyn Railway float barges.
Peace,
ANDEE
PLayland, Joe, you know what time it is. SHOPPING, lets hire friendly Q-Type Car Mexicans to lift and help us SHOP!!!. Transtie Calamari.
If we do that, we have to get them squatters to put some damned clothing on.
No no, just name tags around their ankles this way you'll know who you're working with.
I'm going to try and get myself a rollsign box. Actually, two. I always see R16-38 rollsigns up for grabs on Ebay, it'd be nice to have something to put them in.
As of right now, they are going in the dumpster...
Someone tell me how I can get one please $$$
I think not!!! 2 of the 4 UP escalators were not working tonight. That's a long climb.
God, the subways are literally falling apart.
Were the elevators running?
Actually, there is only one elevator from the platforms to the turnstiles (and another from the turnstiles to the street). Bring nose plugs.
I know how many elevators there are. Two, as you say. That's why I used the plural.
Sorry. I guess I was thinking more in terms of a substitute for the long escalators down from the token booth.
Yes sir, the elevator was working. The elevator that fits all 15 people, and was packed by the time I got to it, and would not be back again for approximately another 6 or 7 minutes, further delaying my trip.
Does the fact that the elevator was running, somehow compensate passengers for the escalators that never operate properly?
You should also know that there was actually a stretch of about two weeks when both elevators were out of order, AND two UP escalators as well.
All the station manager had to do was reverse the DOWN escalators to the UP direction, and it all would have made sense. Instead, the city would rather waste money paying some guy to stand in front of the turnstyle, handing out transfers to the 6 train, for the idiots who still have not figured what is going on.
I saw one of the new subway maps yesterday, with the 2 Q trains and the W etc. Look at the Roosevelt Ave Station in Queens, it lists the V train as stopping there, but there is no other mention of the V train.
You're kidding? It's not mentioned at Queens Plaza and at the local stops between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt?
It shouldn't be mentioned anywhere yet. The V doesn't begin service until November.
Good point.
Your are 100% correct, which is why some folks may want to get a copy of this version of the map before it is corrected. It kind of goes along with the Subway Bloopers thread that was on the board a week or so ago.
Oink, Oink
Piggo/Bill
Absolutely, but is this map available yet at the booths, or are you suggesting I take the one on the platform?
I would think they are available in booths, at least the booths that have recieved new maps. As I said, I first noticed it in subway car sized map (in a subway car) which is what they give out at the booths; I just mentioned poster sized as that is what I looked at on my lunch break to verify the information.
Bill/Piggo
On Monday, 7/16, I requested a "new" map which would reflect the 7/22 changes. The station agent, gave me a look of surprise, then handed me: a)A map from Sept.2000; b)a brochure detailing the Manhattan Bride Changes. So much for TRANSIT keeping the staff updated.
Hey, if you want vintage MTA maps, go to a Long Island Rail Road station. My station is more than a year behind. Lot cheaper than bidding on eBay. ;-)
Still no new maps at Rockefeller or along the West End available for passengers, I've been checking every day.
-Alan Scott
And, if you want a vintage Staten Island Hagstrom street map check out the one at the St George SIRT station. A golden oldie from about 1970...
www.forgotten-ny.com
While you're there, check out the roll signs by the SIR entrances. They are still able to list trains to South Beach.
Same thing happened to me yesterday (7/16), but the agent gave me a MAY 2000 map, which shows the B train going to Queensbridge. I thought that might happen.
Who knows where I can get the subway maps with the Manhathan bridge changes?
>>Who knows where I can get the subway maps with the Manhathan bridge changes?<<
At a token clerk near you!
I couldn't get one from my nearest token clerk. In fact the map I got was dated May 2000. But maybe later in the week the new maps will make it to subway stations in the outer boros.
>>In fact the map I got was dated May 2000.<<
what!?! Even on the G we're doing better than that!
Well the White Plains Road (#2) line is one of the last lines to get a lot of things. One of the last to get flourescent platform lights, one of the last to get stainless-steel cars, one of the last to get the new block-signals and our stations did not get MetroCard turnstiles until late 1996, if I remember correctly. Even the subway maps on the platforms show Queensbridge being served by a shuttle from Queensbridge to the 57th St N/R station. With the new maps, I wouldn't have expected anything different. I'll have to check the Transit Museum Store in Grand Central. They didn't have them there last Friday, but they might have them there now.
thats but save the best for last
thatstrue but save the best for last
63rd drive still has March 2001, I still maintain the new maps have not been distributed in the customer version.
The first place to have it will be the customer service center at 370 Jay st.
I just double checked when I went to lunch. I looked at the large poster size map on the N and R platform at Lexinton Avenue. For the stop on the Queens Blvd Line @ Roosevelt Ave, the trains listed are the E F R and "V"! I know they are looking to get the G off Queens Blvd, but this pushing it a bit!!!!!!!!
WHOOPS! I saw it too.
:-) Andrew
1/9 66 Street - Lincoln Center
I was there today. I read all replies, I am surprised no other places have the new ones. I asked for a map at every station I stopped at today and yesterday:
18th Avenue - F
14 Street/7th Avenue - 1, 2, 3, 9
66 Street/Broadway - 1, 9
42 Street - Times Square - (they didn't have any maps at all !)
Stillwell Avenue - B, D, F, N
34 Street/6th Avenue - B, D, F, N, Q, R
14th Street - Union Square - L, N, R, 4, 5, 6
NONE HAD THE NEW ONES, EXCEPT THE OBVIOUSLY MENTIONED
SO GO, GET ONE, BEFORE ERRORS ARE CORRECTED AND THIS MAP BECOMES RARE !
PS. By the way, here in the Culver Line, we are doing much better with old maps. We have March 2001. For real, May, September 2000 ? Talk about outdated.
Holy dead trees, Batman! Is it really true?!? Is the station clerk there all night? Would I be crazy enough to go there right now from Midwood in Brooklyn to get one of the maps? Maybe. Or maybe I can leave for work early and go way out of my way to stop at 66th street. Thanks for the tip. You are the boy of the day!
Which booth? That'll be my first stop tomorrow.
The Downtown entrance on 66th Street and Broadway.
Not if I get there before you and take them all! Bwah hah hah hah! Better to keep the new maps away from the public until the last second. Don't ask me why I say that. It's my justification for fantasizing about taking all the maps at 66th street.
Sorry everyone, 66th is out. I tried both the downtown and the uptown booth at the north end. I didn't bother trying the 64th Street booth. Then I walked through the park and asked at 5th Avenue (which has the N/R/W listed at the entrance), where I was handed a March map. 63/Lex had a stack of March maps outside the booth.
After all that, I tried my home station, 86th on the 1/9, and got a brand new July 2001 map (the monolingual edition). This was at the part-time (rush hour) southbound entrance at 87th; I don't know about the main booths at 86th.
The simple explanation is that someone made a typo and hit V instead of G. I have the map in front of me and it states:
E-F-R-V
Also, the V and the G are right next to each other on the keyboard.
It's not a typo. To prove it, look at the 2 Avenue, Houston St. (V train terminal) station in an old map and in the new one. In the old one it just said "2 Avenue," but the new one states--in a fashion only terminals would have--"Lower East Side - 2 Ave.," which led me to believe that the person updating the map had put in the V line and had to take it out after the MTA changed its plans and mvoed the V to November. Some artifacts fromt aht change still remains.
Metropolitan Avenue on the M line does not follow this terminal naming scheme. Maybe they should rename it to Middle Village - Metropolitan Avenue.
Shawn.
On the new map it does follow the scheme, exactly the way you posted it.
Shouldn't it then read "E-F-V-R"?
This Friday, I'm going to ride the North side of the Manhattan Bridge. I'm doing it on Friday, because I want to ride a Q and take some pictures out of the front. I know not everyone works part time and has Friday off, so I thought a subtalk trip over the bridge might be nice for this Saturday. I wouldn't mind doing it two days in a row. The Friday after this, I want to ride the new services, mainly the W. By the way, what equipment is going on the W?
Now I have two problems for Friday. 1. Finding a train that some two legged zoo savage animal bastard hasn't ruined the window on, and: 2. Finding a train that doesn't have any kids looking out of the front. Forgive my language regarding the latter. I don't mind little kids because there's nothing wrong with new train buffs, but we can do without the animals scratching up the windows. I propose two months of torture followed by the death penalty. I'd be willing to pay a fare of 10.00 if the TA gave us the right to kill these people.
Better to put them on chain gangs and assign them to remove graffitti with tooth brushes and paint thinner.
Nah, just cut off thier fingers.
I like what some old-time Transit Police would do, take the paint and spray the graffiti "artists'"hands or face with their own paints. Perhaps we can go to their house and scratch their windows instead.
OOOOHHHH! The violent suggestions on this site! I thought I had problems! LMAO! How 'bout we slash their faces instead. The gangs seem to have good luck with that.
Graffiti should be a crime punnishable by Death, Scratchiti is ofcourse equivalent to Espionage, Multiple Murder, Child S&M abuse and rape followed by murder, Conspiracy to commit homocide, conspiracy to conspire against the government, selling NSA Secrets, Cowardece, Terrorism, Anti-Human rights crimes of the highest degrees. Graffiti is a crime which warrants an exception to U.S. Law which allows those convicted to be subjected to Cruel And Unusual Punnishment. Rethink what you say, what if your kid was doing something stupid that kids do? Execusion? Killing their family, as Peter Rosa once suggested should be done to my family? careful guys
My kid would be taught to express himself in other ways. Also, I wasn't refering to first offenders.
i agree it's ugly, but what you're suggesting is no better than the actions of those "two legged zoo savage animals" (and assuming you're an adult, probably worse). One can only hope it was sarcasm.
Something i've always wanted to point out:
Years ago, I knew a rather well know graffiti artist with a thing for scratching subway windows. Let's call him 'bob'. bob's did his damage around 93-94-95 - and today, years later, you'll still find the very same damage on the very same subway cars that he did 6, 7, 8 years ago.
It's not that many people are involved in this scratchetti crap - it's that over the years, it has simply accumulated. It's akin to not cleaning your bathroom regularly - over time, it's going to get pretty damned disgusting.
With the initiative to keep the R142s clean, and i'd assume all cars that follow, it's likely you won't see much, if any of it in the future. With the redbirds, et al going to scrap in the coming year or 2, there will be just that many less cars with it, leaving mostly the R60 types which i'd assume would be due an overhaul anyways.
I forget the model numbers, but plenty of old cars went to scrap still coated in graffiti in the 80's - the TA knew they were going to retire them soon, so there wasn't any incentive to paint them for their last few years of service - especially with many other things that needed to be done...
So fear not, and give it time.
Besides, kids today are more interested in Hacking and 'stealing' MP3s than graffiti writing.
I did mean it mostly sarcastically, but we've lost the whole Manhattan Bridge topic here!
gotcha. i mutter such things myself at times, but avoid it on the web... it's too damn hard to figure out who's sarcastic or not around here...
A few months ago I was in a station and saw a girl not older than 10 or 11 scribbling all over a column on the opposite platform while she was waiting for a train.
A few weeks ago I was on a 1 train and some teenage kids were videotaping themselves scratching up an already scratched-up window, chatting amicably the whole time as if it was what they normally did on their subway rides.
Canal Street station on the soon-to-be 6/N/R/Q/W/J/M/Z was renovated fairly recently, but they're cleaning off fresh marker all the time from the doors and walls.
Many of the recently installed glass blocks on the 7 elevated platforms have been scratched up, and you can bet those won't get replaced for decades.
All in all I think the vandals aren't going away or getting more distracted by their MP3's.
I was coming home late one night, or early one morning from a club and I saw this teenager scratching his name on the side of an R-42 or 40M. Anyway I WAS going to ask him why he was doing that for (What I really wanted to do was break his arm and kick him off the train). But it turns out there was this other guy sleeping in the train who happend to be his friend. Two on one would not have been a pretty sight for me. It pisses me off to see someone in their late teens defacing property like that. Ohhhhhhhhhh if I had my way :)
It'll always be there - people will always do it - no matter what. But if you look back to the 80's and compare it to now, there is no comparison.
So long as the window shields on the new cars are always replaced, and the walls are kept clean in a reasonable amount of time, it'll continue to diminish. Every subway car on the system is clean these days, and if it's not, it's cleaned within hours. Eventually the windows will be scratch free just as the cars are paint-free. The TA drew the line in the sand with the R142s, and so long as they hold that line to all new cars, i'm not worried.
I used to see and know people who tagged up all the time. I haven't seen anyone do it in a good long while, and the ones i knew who did are all either on rikers, or gave up after being arrested over and over.
The 80's are over. period.
Yeah, but people will think of a different way to deface Subway property. And when It does happen it will be up to the MTA to figure out how to deal with it.
Well I have a few people joining me on a subtalk trip starting at the west end of the westbound platform at 21st-Queensbridge at 3pm this Friday. We will be riding the Q all the way down to Brighton. If you want to join us you're more than welcome. There are only R68's running on Saturday so if you want a railfan window you're out of luck. Email me if you're interested.
Wait a minute, both platforms are westbound when trains terminate at Queensbridge!
Yeah I know but not in that context. With service through 21st on nights and weekends I assume everybody knows what the "westbound" platform is. Sorry for any confusion.
Just warning you that the 3:10 Q you're trying to catch may leave from the other platform.
I'm planning my farewell for Wednesday but I may also join you on Friday.
Well we'll take the first train from the westbound platform after 3pm then.
i might come also.
I'm planning my farewell for Wednesday but I may also join you on Friday.
Hi David,
Just wondering when you're planning on riding on Wednesday? I am starting my verification rides for the third edition of my book this week and I will very likely be riding the bridge in both directions on the Q. Since I will be out of town this weekend, I intend to see as much of that north-side crossing as I can. Interested in saying hello?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Absolutely. I didn't have an exact time in mind since in addition to riding the Q I also want to check out some of the updated signage, get some last-ditch pics of the old signage, and maybe hunt for 8603 on the 6 (I was unsuccessful last week). (I don't know if you're interested in tagging along for any of this.)
But, certainly, let's meet up. Pick a time (preferably after 11, but earlier's fine too) and a place (I'm in Manhattan, so any Q station on this side of the bridge is good).
But, certainly, let's meet up. Pick a time (preferably after 11, but earlier's fine too) and a place (I'm in Manhattan, so any Q station on this side of the bridge is good).
Oh I hear you on that "not-before-11:00" thing :-)
OK, Wednesday it is. Let's say 14:00 at the head-end (where else?) of the 6th Ave. express platform at West 4th Street. If anybody else in interested in popping by for a bit, I'll wait around until 14:15 or so, then catch the first southbound Q after that. I'll be glad to sign any track books as well(for those few people who still don't have a signed copy!).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Excellent. That'll also give me a chance to photograph the "3 Av local" sign upstairs (I spotted it from a moving A train on Sunday so I know exactly where to find it).
If I remember to bring it, I'll be wearing a Maxtor pin with a picture of a train (complete with blinking light) on it.
At Kings Hwy the signs at the stair cases are all now Yellow Q's (Circle/Diamond) and the words for Bronx and Queens are covered up. Platform wise they have changed the CI bound side but not the north side.
I was at 7th Ave and those signs have all been changed at the stationa and platform level.
Kings Hwy is strange, the CI bound stair case (24hr Entrance) has LARGE Q/Q stickers where the Manhattan side has little ones.
Are they running out of stickers?? >G<
The main entrances at Stillwell Ave are already signed FNQW (and lots of people are wandering aimlessly looking for the D), and once inside the terminal, the signs are a mishmash of Bs, Ds, Qs, and Ws, with no apparent logical order for covering signs. The new maps were giving some folks on the D a hard time yesterday, too. It should be a fun week :).
BTW, the map replacement has been more dilligent in some yards than others; the map on the 1 I was riding yesterday still has the B going to Queesbridge.
I was hoping to get some final Stillwell pictures of the old letters. Oh well.
I guess this makes up for last time, when they never quite got around to updating the signage there.
I haven't seen any updates in Manhattan yet.
As for the maps, I don't think I've seen the new ones on any IRT cars.
I just came back from the Mid - Manhattan Library. At 42nd and 6th, I saw a B on the downtown track, and on the bulkhead roll signs were (W)s and s. Even on the non - powered cars. The train that pulled in on the uptown side (where I was), had the new maps for the Manny B. changes this coming Sunday. They were also on the A train I got on at 59th-Columbus (Oh, and did I mention that this (A) was also all R-32s?)
Does anyone know where to get the new subway maps
The customer versions are not being distributed yet.
What's the holdup!?! I'm chomping at the bit to own my very own copy!
I got my copy at 66 Street - Lincoln Center, in Manhattan today.
I picked up my copy of the July 2001 subway map at my local Metro North train station today in Hastings-on-Hudson. Yes there are yellow "Q"s all over the place
I saw an R68A at Coney Island attacking the car was signed up as a W.
Sort of.
I hiked up the soon to be former River Line from Hoboken to Port Imperial yesterday and then climbed the stairs to Blvd East -- puff, puff -- and walked over to Bergenline and 49th Street to see the site of the future HBLR station. The lot has been cleared and fenced and posted by NJT.
Then I went looking for the west portal of the tunnel from Weehauken. I had been led to believe that it was at Tonnelle Avenue. Found there a road bridge with the tracks, 3 of them, crossing in a cut underneath. No sign of any work on the HBLR there. Walked back up the hill, checking each cross street. No luck. Each street dead ended at a fence too far from the edge to see into the cut. Didn't feel like hiking across a cemetary after closing hours.
The 6 mile hike wasn't a total waste. Found a Japanese restaurant with a tremendous view on Blvd East at the top of Pershing Road.
I saw one of the new subway maps yesterday, with the 2 Q trains and the W etc. Look at the Roosevelt Ave Station in Queens, it lists the V train as stopping there, but there is no other mention of the V train.
Classic. I got to get one.
The V train does not start until NOVEMBER that is why it is not on the new map. Look for a new map closer to when the V train will start.
That is my point, the map just issued for the Manhattan Bridge flip lists the "V" as one of the trains stopping at Roosevelt Avenue (instead of the "G"). I know the V does not start until November, that is why I pointed it out. As I said in another post, I just double checked when I was out at lunch and it most definately is shown with the V rather than the G!!!
Yeah, I caught that as well. Maybe they made the changes before the starting date for teh V was pushed back, and forgot to change that.
Don't you get it? V is one half of a W so it only travel half the route of the W.
Very Witty.
Who is this guy that thinks he can solve transportation problems for cities he doesn't live in? He especially likes thinking he can solve Atlanta's problems while sitting in Illinois. I'd like to see his ass sit in rush hour traffic and say rail is not an option.
At his web site, he has an article saying that for the cost per rider you can lease a new Jaguar or BMW. I'm going to give him the benefit if the doubt and say his stats are correct. According to bmwusa.com, it cost around $985 a month to lease a 740i (really nice car, I used to detail them at a BMW dealership). That comes to around $12,000 a year. Only three transit systems are more expensive than that.
Of course Cocks fails to mention that the real cost of driving that Bimmer of his is $0.36 a mile (average for all cars, according to the AAA, so the BMW most likely has much higher cost per mile), figuring about 12,000 miles a year, that comes out to about $4300 added to the cost of the car. Also there's the cost of building the roads and maintaining them. I don't have any numbers for that, but I doubt it's cheap.
So we have an average $8,037 per new rider on public transit (according to his stats) and $16,300 plus road costs for the car per year. Can Cocks tell me again how driving is cheaper than building transit systems?
Look at the overall picture - he is one of the shrub's men. Make money in energy ( oil, gas, electricity ) and later for those who are not well off. As was once said by the great Leona Helmsley "Only the little people pay taxes".
Did you notice that accotding to his table FTA's recommendation for ESA was "not recommended," I thought it was recommmended?
Arti
That is a "standard" practice. People who are in a position to make recommendations on Public transit almost (if ever) never use the sytems they are making the recommendations for.
Just imagine what the NYC Subway would be like if the MTA's "experts" were forced to use the subway to get to work instead of their cars.
Frank Krusei of CTA fame makes a big show of using the system. I'm sure he jumps in a car to be on scene for the regular train fires and whatnot.
I'm sure he jumps in a car to be on scene for the regular train fires and whatnot.
Well obviously. If there's some sort of service disruption, then that's the only way.
The big factor here that you just touched on and Cox ignored completely (because it would undermine his argument–completely) is road costs. He’s comparing apples and oranges, since the public works projects’ costs are a combination of infrastructure (track) plus trains/buses/trolleys.
If you add the infrastructure costs into the equation, public transport is extremely competitive in high-density areas.
I don’t think that Wendell Cox is a moron, but certainly the information presented on the webpage is misleading to say the least, if he is not actively lying.
Anyone know how the parking situation is at 179th St. & Hillside Ave? Is there all day street parking? Or are there lots around? Thanks..........
Try the side streets off Midland Parkway between Hillside and Grand Central Parkway. There are probably alternate side signs, but if you scope it out, you should be able to get a space. Be prepared for some walking, though.
Alternate side days are Monday and Tuesday. On those days I park in Briarwood (where alt side days are Thursday and Friday) and use the "Van Wyck Boulevard" Station.
Wednesday through Friday I park at 179th St. To the east of Midland Pkwy there are a few good streets to park on.
Wexford Terrace is one block north of Hillside, accesible from Midland Pkwy, and you sometimes get a spot on it, but usually it's a ways east of Midland and the station. It's probably your best bet---if you can get it.
The next street north of there is Dalny Rd. You might get a good spot, but I should warn you that there is an all-day quasi-alt-side thing going on there. Monday-Friday, one side or the other is closed all day. Dalny curves south and intersects Wexford and Hillside.
Avon St is the next thing east of Midland Pkwy, crossing both Wexford and Dalny. There's sometimes parking between Wexford and Dalny, but you usually have to go north of Dalny. A side street off of Avon is Kruger St, which almost always has something (but it's a bit of a walk by then.)
Yes. That is my life. (Sigh.)
:-) Andrew
During the mid '80s I parked that this area. Donated two AM_FM taped deck radios to the local boys club. Oh and two vent windows. The radios were good for traffic and weather. My guess is a kid on a 10 speeder spotted the car as a commuter and came back knowing he had plenty of time.
avid
Anyone know what those little 6' cutouts are on the track walls of stations? It almost looks like they are for workers to go in there if a train is passing by. Thanks............
Yes.
Hi guys, I'd like to set up my video camera to take a time lapse video of trains coming past. My question, what the best station for this? I'm looking for the one with the most rail traffic from one viewpoint. One with express tracks would be good too. Maybe Dekalb Avenue? Opinions? Thanks.
Personally I'd recommend one of the local stations on the Flushing line during rush hour. LOTS of express traffic and a clear unobstructed view of all three tracks.
-Dave
The problem with DeKalb is that walls block the bypass tracks. All you'll really see is trains on the two tracks at your platform.
The 7 is a good choice. So is just about any four-track station in Manhattan; most have unobstructed views of all four tracks.
OK, I'll forget DeKalb, looked good from track maps but the walls won't help me. Can you give me a busy example of a 4 track station in Manhattan? Thanks again.
Try any station on the 7th avenue line...Clear view of 4 tracks...It's busy with express trains and local trains!
The IRT lines are traditionally the busiest. On the East Side, go to Brooklyn Bridge, 14, or 42 if you want an express station (one track on one side of the platform, three tracks on the other) or to Canal, Spring, Bleecker, Astor, 23, 28, or 33 if you want a local station (all four tracks on the same side of the platform). On the West Side, go to Chambers, 14, 34*, 42, 72, or 96 if you want an express station or to Franklin, Canal, Houston, Christopher, 18, 23, 28, 50, 59, 66, 79, or 86 if you want a local station. (* 34 is arranged differently from the usual express station. It's more like a local station with an extra island platform between the express tracks. This may be ideal for your pursuit, since if you stand on the center platform you'll have two tracks to your left and two tracks to your right.)
If you're not against crossing the border, I would suggest 65st or 36st on the Queens Blvd line, front of the Manhattan bound platform, afternoon rush. Nobody will be getting on or off, and you have a very clear view of four tracks. There are no pillars at 65st's local platform, and very few at 36st, so you have an unobstructed view for a tad farther than you would at other stations. Also, at 36st, you get an excellent view of all 4 tracks in the tunnel, thanx to the 63st connector. Actually, you really get a view of 6 tracks if you count the connector.
Better yet, wait until November, when all six tracks will be in use.
Shoot it from the downtown platform on the IRT Lexington Ave. line at Union Square. Set up the camera just after the curve onto Fourth Ave. begins and point it uptown (north) and you'll get headlights from the No. 4/5 trains coming straight at you from Grand Central 1 1/4 miles away, with the uptown 4/5 and the uptown 6 in the background, off to the right side of the camera image.
Remember: Although videotaping is permitted, use of a tripod in the NYC subway is prohibited, as is use of lighting with the camera.
Also: Don't plug the camera into any NYCT outlets. Even if the voltage is right, that's theft of service.
Finally: try to stay out of the way of people walking by.
Other than that -- have a good time.
David
Does anyone know what time the last D, B, and Q trains cross the North Side on Saturday night?
YOu're thinking waht I'm thinking. I want to ride the last train over the North late Saturday nite then the first over the South after midnite. I just cant figure out the times and trains.
Its probably to tight timewise to ride both trains both ways
(Its probably to tight timewise to ride both trains both ways)
If Operations Planning has a sense of irony, you'll have 15 mintues of trains on both sides of the bridge -- with the N and Q express on the south side -- before we go back to inferior service for another three (ten?) years.
It's almost -- almost -- worth standing on the Manny B pedestrian walkway to get a picture of. It would be worth the effort if the passing trains were going to be there at 12:25 p.m. instead of 12:25 a.m.
Not the N.
But, if, say, the last B and D leave Stillwell, 205, and 145 just before midnight, and the first Q and W leave Stillwell, Pacific, and 57 just after midnight, there could easily be a Q on the south side at the same time a B or D crosses on the north side.
They usually do overlap. In the '95 weekly closings, every Fri. night the last D left right behind the first Q, and on Sun night, the D's started running at 10PM, yet the last Q's still had to go all the way to 21st and back, arriving over an hour later, so you had the D and Q running together southbound. It was also like this during Chrystie St., with the last QT's arriving back at around 1:30 AM. During the last flip, rather than switch the B back for just one hour when it became a shuttle (1AM), they kept it running on the other side, while the D had begun running on this side. I'm wondering if they'll do that this weekend (so there's still no telling when or what exactly will be the last train).
I'm more interested in finding out when exactly the first yellow Q trains will be running over the bridge. Will they begin service at 57th and Stillwell at midnight? Will they begin service at 57th and Stillwell before midnight, timed to reach the bridge at midnight? Will the first trains go into service at Canal and DeKalb, so anyone waiting anywhere else misses out on the fun?
I had to register for City Technical college. So we took the 8:06 from Rosedale (AKA LIRR 2819). Saw 2 C/R's collecting ticktets once we changed at Jamaica. How many C/R's are on a LIRR Train? Then we got to Flatbush Avenue in time to miss a R142 2 train! arghhhh!!! one of the numbers was 6585, maybe u guys know that train. So we caught 1622, a Car on a R62 4 train to Borough hall. Another fact is there are alot more Redbirds on the 4 line now! I saw at least 4-5 while on the 4/5 line. After leaving the College, we got on a Redbird on the 5. By the way, does the Roller sign on the redbird have to be right? I saw a 4 front sign say New Lots Avenue. Does this mean he was really goin to New Lots at 930am? It could be goin to the yard...... Then i saw at least 6 R142A's on the 6 which i am VERY excited. I do still love the Redbirds, but the R142A's makes me wanna s tick to being a Motorman rather than a Long island Railroad Engineer. Funny I found LIRR to be boring this morning....
Then i got a Redbird on the 6. There were a few of them left which i like! I also like MTA's comedy with their Car numbers. I saw 8585 on the 6 today a Redbird. a R46 6060 as a E. a R46 as 5858 as a R. And lets not forget. If Any subtalker wants to talk to me directly, my screenname is F TRAIN 5656 on Aol instant messenger. So holla at me
>>How many C/R's are on a LIRR Train?
Technically only one that is in charge of the train. You have Asst. Conductors and Brakemen (do they have Brake Men anymore?).
Not to say there could be people in the Full Conductor title lifting transportation and not be the "CONDUCTOR" of that train when they have a crew shortage.
Every job has 3 members to its crew. Engineer, Conductor and Assitant Conductor (Brakeman, Collector). Depending on the job and time of day there can be anywhere from 1 Collector to 3 Collectors on a train, they are Assistant Conductors. I am currently in the next Assistant Conductors class to come out in September and will qualified for braking jobs.
You rather be subway motorman, than a LIRR engineer WHY???????????
I was working on the No.2 Line today and there wher alot of R142's. I had 3 R142's myself. I can't believe I had a Redbird only for a half a trip.
Also tomorrow I have the same assignment on the No.2 Line.
tell me what is good about being a LIRR engineer besides more money. I did ride LIRR today. And one thing keeping me wanting to be a Engineer is the DE30. They remind me of airplanes with their cabs and sounds. Can you do me a favor, and tell me about the job of Engineer? I am considering it, because Everyone in my fam who loves trains has always been Motormen, i am considering LIRR for Engineer. Plus i love the M-3s. So email me at paulroach2001@yahoo.com. I already am ahead of the game, because i know the NORAC rules!!
I sent you an e-mail, if you have any other questions I will try to answer. As soon as I got called for the LIRR Assistant Conductor position, I tossed my list number for the Subway Train Operator in the garbage.
You are not as ahead of the game as you think!! The LIRR DOESN'T follow the NORAC. They are neither full nor associate members, which means they have their own rule book.
Michael
As far as the A Divsion, i love the ride of the downtown 2 express or the 5. Those 2 trains i like best. Without their speed, ITS NOT THE SAME!!!! especially when they are local. Also the 2 seems to have the most drama. People have gotten life on the 2, and some have even lost their lives on the 2. As far as the B division i like the E and F. I like the E because i practically grew up on it. I like the F because i have gone into the crew room, i know alot of people in there, and i like how it goes outside, and best of all, R46's. Plus it goes kinda fast, the route that is
The F goes FAST?!!? ....I've been seeing
an average 8 to 12 minutes between F trains
at B'way Lafayette these days... whereas the
1/9 rarely go more than 6 minutes between.
(reference to weekday, daytime hours; not overnights)
Careful not to be too biased towards the west side. We on the 6 supposedly get 3 minute headways at the height of the AM rush. Although the only problem is that so many people try to stuff themselves into the first train that comes into the station that the headways get longer in front and shorter in back of that train.
Bias nothing, Mr 137... simply expressing
my valium-needy experiences on the F recently
which made the 1/9 look all the more "excellant".
Meanwhile, the 4-5-6 serve me well (evenly and
fluently).. so there's hope for equality on the
east side lines... I've never waited as long for a train
as I did this week on the F (midday both ways, too).
....and they're not even hippos!! :c)
Today while on the "Q" (Yes this was the last time I get to be a T/O on the 6ave "Q".) I saw about three maybe four full train with new signs on them. They are the same type that are on the R68's. When did they start putting them in the R68a's
REober
I just noticed that today as well, I had seen them before on the 68as but not full sets (usually one box only, or even one of the two signs in the box). I assumed they were replacements for those random cars that had one or both destinations rolls from R-68s.
But today I saw a full four car set with them, I guess they're replacing everything.
R68 and R68A will be getting new roller curtains. I don't like the new ones. The readings aren't in uniform size. The letters on the new bullets are way too big!
Here's the URL for a photo on the www.nycrail.org website of one of the BMT wooden gate cars at the Transit Museum. Can anyone tell me what the number of this car is??
http://www.nycrail.com/images/tm_2_2_01/tm2001_0216CY.jpg
Not sure of the exact number- but just to clarify- my website is www.nycrail.com, not www.nycrail.org.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
I forget which position the cars are in, but 1273 is the trailer (the middle car), with 1404 and 1407 making up the ends.
-Stef
I have either heard or asumme each of the following:
(correct me where I go wrong)
1) They will get new floors and scratched windows replaced,
2) They will get Identra loops mounted on the ends,
3) The singles will get double-trip cocks to pilot deadhead moves to/from Coney Island.
4) Coney Island trains will either be 7 or 12 cars.
5) They will run in the middle of revenue consists so the motorman and conductor each have the benefit of a full-width cab,
Is there any confirmation that they're going to rehab these cars beyond what's needed to operate on the 7? (clean ehm up a bit, replace the windows...)? It'd seem like a prime time to do it.
The floor work Joe V. cited is to be done on all R-62As, irrespective of where they're operating now or where they'll be operating in the future. In addition, the R-62A fleet is receiving new E-Cam controllers (under the car, not the stuff in the cab). Other than that, I know of no rehabilitation work being contemplated for these cars, although component upgrades are regularly done under the Scheduled Maintenance System (SMS) program (the floor work and new controllers are SMS items).
David
Floors and windows will be applied to all R-62/62As at some point. You're right though; a transfer would be a good time to do so.
Note that 62As on the 1 and 3/S are E-Cam, those on the 6 line are not. I was wondering why the transfers took so long to show up when they left Pelham but I understand it takes about 5 weeks to modify the WH control system.
I am not so sure about the 4 trip arms; perhaps the Single R-33s will be retained as horses for moves to CI. Though the scrapping of 9321 may indicate otherwise. In addition to the 4 trips, I believe the single cars at Corona have an enlarged main reservoir.
There's absolutely NO need for Indentra coils. That hasn't been used in years.
The 11-car train configuration had not been determined yet, AFAIK. Simplicity seems to hint at a "5-1-5" set-up, though. This would, as you say, put Conductors and T/Os in full-width cabs. It would also line up with the Conductors' Boards.
I get no sense whatsoever that any of these issues have been completely analyzed, but one of these days I'm sure we'll get a rather big surprise.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I have a few questions:
1) What are "Identra" coils?
2) Why are special setups needed for Coney Island moves? Could someone explain what needs to be done specially to get a Flsuhing line train there and why?
3) Why would using the R33 singles help? If so, amybe they'll retain 1 or 2 of them for this purpose?
Thanks!
1. ?
2. A division cars and tracks have the brake trippers on the right side. B division cars and tracks have the trippers on the left side. Most work equipment has the trippers on both sides. The R-33 single has them on both sides as well, so the emergency brakes can be tripped no matter what division the car is operating on.
And I still maintain that if an A division car with the tripper on the right side runs on the B division tracks with the trip arm on the left, the brakes would not be tripped at all because the signal would detect the car within its block and drop the trip arm before the offside tripper can hit it.
Identra coils are part of a train identification system that was used on the subway for a couple of years. Some of the folks who understand the details of how it worked can explain it better; I'm just offering this very basic explanation in the meantime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe it had something to do with the express/local designations, and was used on the R-12/14/15 trains and on the current set of R-33/36 WF trains when they were first delivered. (Photos are on Dave's site, just look for the Flushing Bluebirds with the big circular loop sticking out from the front of the train)
1) Old train identifing system unique to the #7. Would attach a loop (looked like a small toilet seat) to the front of the train and anytime the train passed an identra (looked like a signal box with a small blank billboard on the top), it would identify the train as a local, express or super express to the tower.
2 & 3)Moves to Coney Island (for the main shop) must be made with single units on the ends of the train. Single units are specially equipped with 4 trippers instead of the normal 2. In the A div. the trip arms for associated signals are located on the right hand side and the B div. trip arms are located on the left. Therefore the location of the trippers on the cars for each div. is different. A div. cars have the trippers on the right side and diagonally across on the opposite end of the car. The B div. has its trippers on the left side of the car and diagonally across. In order to not compromise the safety of the signal system, transfers must have single units on the operating ends. The single units have trippers on all four corners of the cars. On a transfer move if a train without a single unit runs past a signal in the B div., the back of the car will get tripped instead of the front thereby allowing the train to travel an extra 50 feet before going into emergency. Not good. Dispatcher and T/O will be in trouble if caught.
The Identra system was instituted in the 1950s to set routings. It relied on radio transmission between trains and wayside encoders so the trains had a round "coil" suspended off the windshield. The Broad Street Subway still uses it. The encoders are still mostly there today. They consist of flat metal squares suspended from a framework at trackside. I believe the best example is at the east end of 111 Street.
Sometime in the 1980s the Flushing Line became remote-controlled from Queensboro Plaza (correct me if wrong) and the Identra system retired.
The single R-33 have additional trips for use on the B-Division. Trips on the two divisions are on different sides.
Flushing Line equipment is based at Coney Island, technically it's part of the B-Division; technologically its IRT.
The R-62As only have IRT trips. Adding a set of double trips entails some pipe-fitting so it costs $$$. Using single 33s as "horses" for shop moves could save some $$$.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
1. Who bulid the cars for Route 100 and what year where they bulid?
2. Do the Route 100 makes every stop on the line?
3. Is this ture that if you want to get on that you have to press a button that tell's the T/O to stop and pick up people. Is this ture?
4. Do I have to pay my fare before I get on Route 100?
5. If I want to get off Route 100. Do I have to ring a bell? Yes or No.
6. Is 100 a verry nice route?
Thanks.
The current cars were built by ABB.
No, it only makes stops that passengers request.
Yes.
Pay on exit outbound, pay on entrance inbound. (From 69th St.)
You press a stop request button.
Yeah, it's fun.
Thanks.
I just needed to know since I be planning to ride the 100 someday. Now I got a few more.
1. Where do I have to press the button to yet the T/O to stop and yet me on?
2. Where is the Stop Request Button?
3. Is service is good on 100?
Thanks again.
Both bottons are plainly labeled.
They run usually about every 20 minutes.
OK. Thanks.
The button for the TA to stop is located right on the platform shelter, and you should have no trouble finding it unless you have to run for the train.
As for the trains making all stops, during the peak express trains are run, stopping only at 69th Street, Ardmore Jct. and Bryn Mawr before running local to Norristown. The other half are locals to Bryn Mawr. Therefore, 69th Street Ardmore Jct. and Bryn Mawr get peak service every 6 minutes, the rest of the stations get peak service every 12 minutes, with those stations Bryn Mawr and south getting slightly more service at the fringes of peak hours. Midday and Saturday headways are 20 minutes, Sunday is 30 minutes.
Now all I need to do is look for the Shelter and press the button. AND BOOM! The train come's!
YES YOU PRESS A BUTTON ON THE PLATFORM AND IT TURNS ON A LIGHT THAT SIGNALS TO STOP. I GOT BURNED BY THAT ONCE. I WAS COMING BACK FROM KING OF PRUSSIA TO MY DORM ROOM AT VILLANOVA I WA WAITING AT THE GULPH MILLS STATION AT 9:30 OR SO ON A DECEMBER NIGHT AND FORGOT TO HIT THE BUTTON AND THE TRAIN JUST BLEW ME OFF. NEXT ONE WASN'T TOO FAR BEHIND, BUT IT WAS CCCCCOOOLD THAT NIGHT!!!!
AS FOR THE CONDITION OF NORRISTOWN, I HAVE BEEN A PART OF SOME 'HABITAT' TRIPS WITH VU AND THAT ARE HAS FALLEN INTO DISREPAIR
AND BEEN HIT WITH A LOT OF CRIME, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF REHAB WORK BEING DONE.
<6. Is 100 a very nice route? >
The route is nice, Norristown is not - on the order of Far Rockaway or Hempstead. I have driven through it on the way to Strasburg and wished I hadn't. Watch it.
What do you mean Norristown is not nice?
Let's just say you should watch your back and keep your valuables secure. It was once a very nice working-class town, but it has gone downhill considerably in the past ten years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To Anon-e-mouse,
That's plan just plain ole common sense anywhere you go, whether if the neighborhood had gone downhill or not. Anything can happen to anybody whether you're railfanning in the city or the suburbs. But I take it that you had had learn that the hard way. So I hope you would be more cautious the next time you railfanning in cities you're not that familiar with.
Sincerly,
Ms.SEPTA
I take it that you had had learn that the hard way.
Fortunately, no, but I know a couple of folks who have... including our webmaster here (he's posted about it, so I'm not telling any secrets). I've also been in Norristown several times, and the only time I felt even halfway comfortable there in recent years was during a street festival when there was a significant police presence.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My Great Aunt's Norristown house (off "Whitehall Road," I think), was robbed repeatedly starting about 7 or 8 years ago after having lived there peacefully for 30 or 40 years prior. She has since moved into a retirement community, which has a manned security gate. (BTW, Penna. has the third most retirees, behind only Fla. and Ariz. It also has the lowest divorce rate of all the states too, but I digress...) My impression of Norristown when I visited as a kid was that it was a nice suburb. Amazing how things can change. Funny, I don't recall ever hearing about any of her family taking public transport, such as the SEPTA R6 or the P&W, though I'm sure they must have. I'll have to ask her.
She would probably refer to the R6 as the Reading's Norristown Local, although trains from/to Reading and Pottsville stopped in Norristown.
Why you have to say that it's going Downhill? Do you know anybody that lives in Norristown?
I've visited a number of times as a railfan over the past forty years. It's simply based on personal observation. I had one friend in Norristown but that was over twenty years ago - we lost touch with each other for many years, and reconnected when I went to visit my cousin in Yardley five years ago and he recognized me - he's her next door neighbor.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To put things in perspective, there are much more dangerous places in the Philly metro area. If the only reason you're going there is to ride the trains, you can ride Route 100 out there and back without ever leaving the platform and going into town. (By the way, The platform has nice views of the Schuylkill River and its steep valley, and the train crosses it on a high bridge with nice views, too.) And if you want a different ride back into Philly, you can take a very short walk to the R6 station. This also means very little time spent in Norristown if you're afraid of crime.
Mark
Well. I was going to go up to Norristown to ride Route 100 and take photos of Buses from Fronter(Norristown is the place most Fronter Buses go to.) I could be there for like a Hour or so. Anouther place I could take photos of Fronter Buses is King Of Prussia. I could do that instead of going to Norristown. So I could take the 100 eather to Gulph Mills and take eather take the 124/125 to King Of Prussia. or take the 100 to King Manor then take the 99 to King Of Prussia. Can anybody tell me witch is the better way to King Of Prussia?
My personal preference would be to take the P&W (Route 100) to Norristown. You can get pictures of trains, light rail cars and buses at the same location. I didn't feel unsafe when I was there last, but Keystone Pete was there for protection.
So are you saying that it's SAFE? And do you have the photos online that you took in Norristown?
I didn't feel unsafe - Bob
So are you saying that it's SAFE? - Q46 etc
No, I said that I didn't feel unsafe.
And do you have the photos online that you took in Norristown?
I didn't have a digital camera yet when I was there.
Keystone Pete has one Norristown shot from our trip on his website.
SEPTA Adtranz LRV at the Norristown Transportation Center, Norristown, PA, February 2, 2001
To put things in perspective, there are much more dangerous places in the Philly metro area.
Absolutely. That's one of the reasons that I've done very little solo railfanning there - almost all of it has been as part of an organized fantrip, and the rest has been in the company of one or both of my sons (6' and 6'3") or another person of intimidating appearance. The only other place where I feel equally uneasy is Asbury Park, NJ - SE Washington doesn't even bother me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What are the red cars in the background of this picture taken at Coney Island?
The cars are the R44 or/and the R46
the r44-r46 are red cars?
I didnt read the whole message.
The Red cars are called gate cars. They are mad of all wood.
Robert
My guess, upon checking the "Rolling Stock" section of this site:
BMT Gate EL Cars
If you check the museum roster section of this site and look up Shoreline trolley museum, there are several pictures of car 1227 which is an operating Gate Car. Hopefully it will make an appearance during the Autumn in New York Weekend 9/28 & 9/29.
Looks like the first three posters need to spend more time looking around the site for more complete answers... :)
Those are the Transit Museum's BRT el cars ("gate cars") numbers 1404, 1407, 1273. Had been converted into "Q" types and then rebuilt back into their more-or-less original appearance. There are more pictures of them on the Museum Roster.
Well, if the R26s are Redbirds, I guess you could style those cars "Red Pteradactyls." They were commonly called "BUs" (BEE-YOOZ) for "Brooklyn Union," operator of most of Brooklyn's els, pre-BRT.
Research, thy dear subtalker.
Nitpick alert!
Wouldn't that be "thou?"
I might be old, but not old enough to speak "King James" English natively!
End nitpick
...are you the Eggman?
NO YOU'RE NOT said Little Nicola!
Yes, and I am The Walrus.
peace
wayne
Cu cu ca choo
"NO YOU'RE NOT said Little Nicola!
Yes, and I am The Walrus."
THE WALRUS WAS PAUL !!
Bill "Newkirk"
It would be my, since he's not trying to say your dear Subtalker.
Oops, I think this is the link.
Anyway, what were the BU cars doing outside?
That was back in the mid-1970s when those Q cars were being
un-rebuilt into BUs at Coney Island Shops.
With vivid memoirs of the MTA being
'scrap-hungry' certain years ago & torching
the r10 fleets with no regard for their
B division car population-- (see: present-day
car shortage on the C/E lines)... I ask:
When the r62/62a's go in for overhaul/rebuilding,
WHAT cars will we have to take their place in
(temporary) IRT revenue service?
Hhhhm?
With the advent of the Scheduled Maintenance System (SMS) there are no overhauls of the type the fleet underwent in the 1980s and early 1990s. A "float" for SMS work is included in the car requirements determined by Operations Planning.
David
What about provisions for improved service, as I've called for on the 1/9? Even if it's not decided to make any changes today, ridership may increase even further in the coming years. Wouldn't it be prudent to keep some of the Redbirds that are still in decent shape?
Wouldn't it be prudent to keep some of the Redbirds that are still in decent shape?
It would not. Because with the change order and the excersized options there will be MORE R-142s and R-142As than Redbirds.
I'm not saying the new cars should be thrown out, as one poster here feels. I'm saying that it might be worth considering keeping some Redbirds on land to allow for service improvements over what the R-62, R-62A, R-142, and R-142A combined could provide. I'm also pointing at one service improvement that's obviously warranted.
But the MTA already realized that, which is why the negotiated a new contract with the builders that increases the number of new cars being brought in. Specifically to increase service while still putting every Redbird out of their riders' misery.
What will the net increase be?
"What about provisions for improved service, as I've called for on the 1/9?"
That's one of the things that will precede 10-car #3 trains.
David
Excellent! I'm glad somebody else has noticed the problem.
Any idea how exactly service will be improved? Or rough dates that we'll see the improvements in action?
The improvements are supposed to start with the August 5 pick, but they've been put off before...
David
So I should expect to find the new 1/9 schedule on the TA web site in 2003 or so?
Before that, I hope.
David
....which cars are going to be used as (temporary)
replacements when the r62/62a's go in for rebuild
and/or overhaul??
As David-with-no-last-name said in response to your earlier inquiry, the TA no longer does rebuild or overhauls.
I am well aware that the Green Hornet, Zephyr and original Bluebird(8000) ran in service on the Fulton St. El for a time, but is there any record or documentation that they might have also run in service on the other Bklyn Els for any length of time?
Carl M.
If by "els" you mean those lines whose platforms were configured for elevated widths (5th, Lex and Myrtle south of Broadway) none of the experimentals could run on them because of clearances.
Elevated widths? Could please explain? Thanks.
The old, unreconstructed BRT/BMT el lines were never widened to handle the 10-foot wide cars the system adopted with the beginnings of the subway, that's why the Q cars had to have platform extnders for the Myrtle Ave. line north of Broadway, because they were IRT width.
Conversely, if the Bluebird of Zephyr had run south of Broadway on the Myrtle, or on the other lines Paul mentioned, you would have had a 10-foot train running down a line with platform clearances for 8-foot-10 inch trains. Perhaps if someone in the tower gets really, really confused next Monday and tries to run a W train to Main Street at Queensboro Plaza, we can get the modern equivalent of the problem when the R-68 arrives at 33rd-Rawson. :-)
Ooooohhhhhh! Ouch! I wouldn't want to be there. It's the R-10 story all over again. OTOH a BMT standard or Triplex would have blazed its own path.
R-10 story? What are you referring to?
subfan
I believe a Concourse R-10 CC local car one time (probably when they all had the silver/blue MTA exteriors) was mistaken for an R-12/14 and almost sent up the Jerome line, but I could be wrong.
The story I heard was that an R-10 got thrown into a train of R-12s and R-14s which was then sent along the Flushing line. All went well until it got to an express stop, then crr-rrruuunnnn-nnch!!!!!
Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!
Thanks.
Obviously, the Fulton St. El must have had the proper clearances for these cars.
Carl M.
Yes, Fulton platforms were trimmed and wayside equipment moved for 10 foot widths. That's why the C-types had those skirts, q.v.
PAUL - thats why BU el gate cars had those retrofit small extension plates (steel) affixed to the edge of the open end platforms - stuck out about 3 (+) inches from end of platform sides - so they could run on lines (when needed ) like Fulton that had retrofit to 10 ft car widths as well as Bway Bklyn Elevated joint use with 10 ft steels & stations above Bway-Myrtle on the Myrtle to Metropolitan cleared for 10 ft width steels - you can see these extender plates in close up pics of BU gate platforms during the 20's to 50's era.
PS: Get a chance to look up my NEW expanded website - you can access it thru RailServe, East Penn Club,
NYC Model Transit Assn (group) - Rails USA and of course your web site...let me know what you think
as we lived thru thse periods of time the models reflect!
Joe--
I already commented on your great stuff at message 238898.
For anyone who hasn't checked out the most realistic (IMHO) model elevated scenes I've ever seen, here's a direct link.
It looks like they're finally pulling down the long, skinny tower between and over the tracks between 39th and QP on the astoria N line. The top floor seemed to be gutted by contractors over the weekend while the track around the curve was also being replaced. While it's shell and lower, track level floor seems to be intact, I can only wonder if the rest is to be pulled down this weekend, or the following one?
It's been inactive, so long as I can recall, since the last bridge-flip-flop around 1990. At that time a small building across from it was pulled down, and one further up the tracks on the old 2nd Av ROW was taken off this spring...
It's a pretty unique looking structure, so if anyone out there wants photos, yee would be adviced to do it this week.
Why are they pulling it down?
N Bwy
Beebe tower. Probably before it falls down.
"Why are they pulling it down?"
Don't know exactly why, but the TA is removing all decommissioned and abandoned towers. Atlantic Ave on the (L) is one, the tower at Bway Junction that stood alone was removed also.
Bill "Newkirk"
167St tower on the 4 (Woodlawn) line is gone too.
"167St tower on the 4 (Woodlawn) line is gone too."
That tower bit the (steel) dust ?
That tower controlled the movements of the 9th Ave el's Bronx connection and later Polo Grounds shuttle. History is disappearing !
Bill "Newkirk"
No longer needed. The Master Tower controls the area now.
Has anyone noticed that alot of Commuication Rooms are popping up everywhere?
Probably because the TA is making money from selling space in the tunnels for dark fiber.
John
Yup, the door and windows arrangement on the south side of the tower has been removed leaving a gaping rectangular opening the height and width of the tower-house. No longer is there that door, propped open by a hand-held fire extinguisher. I always thought that tower made a nice little dwelling for the homeless. Obviously, grafitti artists had visited numerous times. This week, the Queens-bound track was still missing its third rail covers between QBP and Beebe. I imagine they will be put on this weekend and the work lights removed.
Oddly enough, I don't think any homeless ever moved in there - the pigeons did though - by the truckload. that fire extinguisher was coated in bird-poop.
it's sole purpose these last 10 years has been a resting place for the birds (heh - it went to the birds!) and indeed a frequent graffiti target - though they kept a decent coat of black on it's base the last 4 or 5 years...
quite interesting.....
It was Luck! Also that half a trip with the redbird was my first half and the rest of the day was R142 all the way. I hope tomorrow is the same way.
In the Division of Rapid Transit Operations, a full trip is a trip in both directions; a half trip is a trip in one direction.
David
In NYC Subway Cars book of James Clifford Greller on pg67 shows R16 6429 in a futuristic rebuild in 207 Yard,butcar didn't go nowhere, the car was scrapped right a way. My question is why did they gave a futuristic remodel to this car & what was the purpose for it to be futuristic?
"My question is why did they gave a futuristic remodel to this car & what was the purpose for it to be futuristic?"
If it was a success, the whole R-16 fleet was supposed to be overhauled. Why, I am not sure. The interior was that of an R-46 !
Bill "Newkirk"
Actually it was more like an R62 (a car that didn't exist at the time), with the seats along the wall. But the car ceiling, handholds, and car ends were 100% R44. I saw this strange car at 207th Street Shoppe in 1980 during the open house. They made a point of showing this car off; people lined up to look at the interior. It was signed up as "A", front and side. It was very very nice, too bad they didn't continue in this vein.
wayne
It probably would have been too expensive to attempt a GOH of the R-16s, especially in the bad shape they were in back then combined with the financial situation of the TA.
Wholeheartedly agreed; especially to the extent that #6429 was overhauled. The R16 as a fleet, by 1980, was in precarious shape, especially the 6400s.
wayne
Today I took my seven year old son Alex down to D.C. to the Air & Space Museum and like a tru Subtalker who didn't give a damn about the exhibits. But he just LOVED the double-decker Marc trains and the light rail and buses in Baltimore. He wants to ride a trolley so I'll probably take him to Philly within the week. Too bad there are no more PCCs though.
Eric D. Smith
HURRY and take him to Newark! I went there on Friday, and they STILL have the PCCs there. HURRY BEFORE THEY DISAPPEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CWalNYC
Excellent idea!
E_DOG
Excellent idea!
E_DOG
Yeah, my daughters (esp. my elder) like trolley rides, though I never tried to push it on them.
But a question about the subject line: Shouldn't it be:
E_DOG and E_PUP?
Now, hold on a minute there! You mean to tell me that there exists a seven year old boy - in America! - who doesn't like airplanes and rockets? Doesn't think he'd look cool in a space suit?
He'd much rather operate a train. Go figure.
E_DOG
What happened to the Blue stripe the TA used to have on most of it's trains. I distinctly remember them on the R-46's when I used to travel on the GG. Then when the LCD signs began appearing on the R-46's the blue stripe was gone. The blue stripes were also removed from the LIRR in favor of the bare metal. Anyone have any idea as to why the TA did that?
At the time they did away with the blue stripes, the MTA worked on distinguishing amongst its various divisions (TA, LIRR, Metro-North), as opposed to this whole standardization thing with which the MTA started in ’68. Notice that the R62’s and R62A’s didn’t have any blue stripe, although the way it was designed you’d think there was a provision for it to be painted.
Also, the graffiti scourge of the 1970s and early 1980s and the solvents needed to remove them played havoc on the blue stripes, the same way it did on the painted bodies of the carbon steel cars. Since all or most of the cars bodies from the R-32 up were stainless steel, the MTA decided there was no need to paint those areas if they have to keep doing it over and over again, and so the blue stripe was abandoned.
If you are a mischevious type of guy, you can see where the blue stripe was on the R-44's by looking at the side next to the doors...there is a silver color different from the rest of the car, the MTA was cheap so they put a silver sticker over it, peel it off and I think you can see the blue stripe...Am I right?
The silver area where the blue stripe used to be is painted. R-44's were built with that area constructed of carbon steel instead of stainless steel. They use metallic silver paint.
There are two possible explanations as to why these cars were built that way: 1) Paint sticks better to steel than stainless steel; 2) Stainless steel is more expensive than steel; the manufacturer (St. Louis Car Co.) was trying to cut some corners to lower the car cost and thus submit a lower bid when cars were being considered for purchase. That is probably also why R-38's, R-40's, and R-42's have painted steel roofs.
What you see is not a peeling sticker; it's rust causing bubbles under the paint.
R-46's have their belt rails constructed of stainless steel.
Fortu
For those of you subtalkers into modeling the rapid transit of New york, or just appreciating the work of scale modelers - my site has been expanded to 129
images w/captions - since the much smaller Website
came on line on May 31, 2001.
to Access my web site
(a) access my EMAIL address by click on
(b) send me an email requesting info
(c) I will email you back my email form which has my website URL name & address IN CLICK ON form
Try using the website address on a search or other
"Go To" mode of your computer --as follows:
http://community.webtv.net/nycmodeltransit/
NYCModelTransitEL
Other web sites have my site listed as the New york City Model Transit System O-Scale El or NYC Model Transit El. There is a "click on" at my post in Model Subtalk Msg Board & Also at NYC Model Transit Assn website board. Hope you enjoy the photos and the site in general
The level of detail of both your equipment and structures is nothing short of incredible.
Speaks well also for 0 scale. 0 scale was my first love but, unfortunately, I had to produce in HO when I was in the business--bigger market and the $$$ investment in 0 sale was just too high.
Paul,
Born in 1956, spent my young years riding the Southern Div. lines with the ABs, D-types, R27 & 32s. When I went into the modeling aspect of this great hobby, the only models available to me at the time were the Q-Car ABs and R9s. Was lucky enough get hold of 3 of your great Silverleaf ABs, but alas, when the WP ones came out I ditched them. To this day I regret it. You did one heck of a job with those ABs, even almost 40 years later, the detail holds up well.
How I wish I could turn back the clock for a few days and ride those ABs and D-types on the West End, Brighton, and yeah Fred, the Sea Beach too!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Thanks for the nice words. I don't know how the modern models (which look great!) are produced but back in Silver Leaf days the Japanese makers used a combination of photoengraving, lost wax casting, and similar craft techniques, and lots of hand assembly. What a craft it was!
I never see Silver Leaf models on eBay. There were only 300 ever made, and about a dozen of these never made it to America--sold on the Japanese market.
Incredible! I thought I was looking at the real thing!
***** WOW! *****
I can't believe it's all a model ... WOW ...
I second that emotion! I am in awe of your modeling skills!!
Thanks Dave (and "Selkirk" re: post also) My
enjoyment is by the enjoyment of the "viewer" -
that is what drives me to extremes to Capture
"essences and the feel" of the way the times and
prototype were - within model restrictions and
artistic license issues.
That truly is a remarkable piece of work and obviously (considering the details UNDER the els) took a long long time to do. What amazed me most was the street corner details including the DeSoto taxi and all. It must have been an incredible amount of work to get all that down, and having lived along the third avenue El (Bronx) and ridden it, the details were SPOT ON, right down to the guard rail changes, latticework and walking boards ...
Again my highest PRAISE and highest compliments for your excellent website & the absolutely BEAUTIFUL models showing
when the subway was a real subway & all cars came railfan window equipped ! The pre world war 2 stock was ALL HIGH CLASS!
I do intend to order all of the CDs & videos that come from this fine collection !!
AND PLEASE NO CRAPPY R-142s !!! ...........lol !!!
Again my highest PRAISE and highest compliments for your excellent website & the absolutely BEAUTIFUL models showing
when the subway was a real subway & all cars came railfan window equipped ! The pre world war 2 stock was ALL HIGH CLASS!
I do intend to order all of the CDs & videos that come from this fine collection !!
@AND PLEASE NO CRAPPY R-142s !!! glad to see them GONE from your website !!...........lol !!!
Thanks for the kind thoughts about the pre-WW2 equipment. My thoughts exactly.
Fantastic!
You should open a Museum. I would certainly pay to see the layout in person.
You should open a Museum. I would certainly pay to see the layout in person.
Ditto. I'd pay to see that layout myself. How big is it? I'd love to hear and read the story behind it!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Someone had posted a suggested trip by foot over the Manhattan Bridge with return trip by train for Sunday. Is this trip on?
I had posted a basic subway itinerary, riding across the bridge a few times and stopping at the major transfer points to watch the crowds. I wasn't planning on wasting any time walking across the bridge, which I'd also like to do but I can always do some other day. If you want to organize something, though, I may join.
A few weeks ago Allan suggested we start the trip at 57 St & 7 Ave on the Q, change at Atlantic Ave for Pacific St, take the W to CI, eat at Nathan's, return on the Q to Canal St & (optionally) walk across the bridge.
I may or may not be able to make it Sunday (I will know by Friday evening) but I suggest this:
Meet at about 10:00 AM at 57th St/7th Av on the southbound platform by the dispatchers office. At about 10:20 (giving people time to get there) get on a SB Q train. Take it to Atlantic Av, change to the W at Pacific St. Take it to Coney Island. Have lunch (Nathan's). Then hop on a NB Q to Canal St. Walk back to the Manhattan Bridge and walk along the pedestrian path for at least half the span. There is an interesting spot on the Manhattan side just where the train leaves the tunnel. Someone peeled back (at least it was that way 2 weeks ago)the fencing and you get a clear shot at the tracks and signal and maybe the back of a train entering the tunnel.
Allan
I like your suggestion, but it would be much more convenient for me if we could start the trip a little later, say 11 AM. If anyone else is interested, please post.
Sounds good to me. We were on the walkway this past Sunday, and I didn't notice any fencing out of position, but, then, I wasn't looking for it.
me too i dont no if i can make
Sounds good.
According to the New Maps, at Court Square there is a free transfer between the G and the 7. By following the chain of lines, you can also deduce that there is a transfer between the E and F and the 7 as well. Now, being that there is no disclaimer anywhere stating that the transfer is Metrocard only, is there a secret hidden passage somewhere that leads people to a teleport onto the 7 platform?
I didn't know even the MetroCard transfer was in place yet.
Neither did I. Maybe it isn't. It could be right up there with the V stopping at Roosevelt ave.
I wonder how the TA will handle reimbursement requests from passengers who read the map (properly) and assumed there was a transfer there.
In any case, MetroCard transfers and regular transfers should be notated differently. Even for passengers using MetroCard, there are critical differences (the transfer must be taken within two hours of initial entry, and if you threw out your empty MetroCard after emptying it, you're out of luck).
I have to tell you--I saw the map and I don't think I saw that transfer there. I'll have another look tomorrow, but are you sure it wasn't the bubble that (foolishly I think) puts Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza together?
:-) Andrew
Saw it today. Sorry. You're right.
:-) Andrew
The Second Avenue Subway or the Bering Straits tunnel? As far as I'm concerned, the tunnel's the better bet.
A million to one, the Bering Tunnel comes first. We get absolutely no love from Washington, unlike other great loobyists in this nation.
There seems to be a lot of idealism in the press about bringing the Summer Games to NYC in 2012, esp. since Beijing (of all places) got the AOK for 2008. All of a sudden, the whole debate about the transit nightmares a stadium on the west side, as well as the two and a half weeks of over - capacity crowds, went out the window.
According to press reports, a nonprofit group has come up with a plan for shuttling all the crowds to and from the sites, one which relies on rail transit and water transit. I just want to say that there have been plans before for transit expansion in this city, esp. for big events, and they've all gone down the toilet for one ridiculous reason or another. Right now, as I speak, there are plans for acces to lower Manhattan, ESA, PSA (PS=Penn Sta.), and a SEPTA - like "Metrolink" (brought to you by the RPA). I have little reason to believe that all of these plans will be ready by July of 2012. And I have less reason to believe that newer plans for transit expansion will get off the ground by then. IMO, well have to crawl on our knees to NJT, LI Bus, and the Bee - Line for help when we start bursting at the seams, assuming that we even get selected as a host city.
Any questions?
If New York got the 2012 Olympics, I'd be willing to bet they could get one line -- the No. 7 over to the proposed stadium site next to the Javits Center -- built, because it would have the full backing of both the political and business community. That wouldn't be because any of them suddenly care so much about New York City mass transit, but because they wouldn't want to be embarrassed by the national and world media saying how ineptly planned the whole thing was, and how you coudln't get to or from the main Olympic Stadium venue without enduring a 15 minute walk or 30 minute bus ride through hordes of people and thousands of gridlocked cards.
Fear of public humiliation felt by both the politicians and by the business leaders who would be involved in the NYC Olympic organizing/fundraising committee would do wonders to make all the red tape surrouding a No. 7 extension disappear so fast it would make your head spin.
Environmental impact problems -- gone. Union contract/territoral disputes -- gone. Problems co-ordinating relocation of water, sewer, phone and electric lines with other agencies -- gone. NIMBYs -- muffled, if not gone, because their lawsuits against any project like that would be quickly tossed out of court. If the big money people and the folks in politicial power want the Olympics to make them look good -- and if a No. 7 extension to 34th St. and 11th Ave. will help do that -- it will get done.
However, since there would likely be no Olympic facilities built anywhere along Second Ave., any attempt to secure the 2012 Games would likely have no effect whatsoever on speeding construction of that line.
It figures. Except if those facilites happened to be in The Bronx or Brooklyn, which meant that either the Brooklyn IRT gets help or grinds to a devastating halt.
Depends on how big a venue was put in the Bronx or Brooklyn. An aquatic center would get some sort of mass transit help -- depending on the location possibly extra trains through the Rutgers Tunnel to the downtown Brooklyn area or possibly two sides of the Manny B (!) in service during the two weeks of the Olympics.
Less-hpyed Olympic sports though would likely not get the same treatement. It would probably corrolate to the value of the tickets and to the status of the people attending those events -- not that they're going to be the kind of people that would take the subway; they'd be limmoed there -- but the event would be higher-profile which would result in more questions being asked and plans made about subway service before the Olympics begin.
Well, some things could certainly get done.
By 2003, there will be full rail access to Kennedy and Newark airports. LaGuardia rail service could be ready by 2012, if the political will were mustered to do it. Even a Javits extension could be done.
Politics introduces a big IF. But I think other posters are right - the Olympics could help set up a mandate to get some of this done.
Personal embarrassment would win out over civiv responsibility any day among the top people (whoever they are) in the city and state government five to eight years down the line. The Los Angeles Olympics in 1984 made Peter Uberroth in to a celebrity and got him the job as MLB commissioner (with great press clippings) as well. The California pols in the mid-1980s also benefitted from the smooth-running Olympics.
Compare that to the abuse heaped on Atlanta in 1996 over their nyriad of problems co-ordinating things (capped off, of course, by the Olympic Park bombing). It didn't enhance anyone's career and it probably wrecked the careers of one or two people.
With that background, whoever is NYC's Uberroth and whoever the mayor and governor are will want to run things the way L.A. did, not the way Atlanta did. And if that means extending the No. 7 train four blocks west and eight blocks south, it will get done because careers and personal reputations will be at stake.
I doubt any transit upgrades would be needed in order for New York to host the Games.
I attended the Games in Atlanta -- the Olympic Stadium was over 3/4 of a mile away from the MARTA station. Tens of thousands of people made that walk daily. An outdoor mall of corporate sponsors and food vendors was set up along the entire distance.
For those venues outside the city, a network of busses and commuter rail (with extra service) would probably suffice. Atlanta borrowed busses from just about every major transit system in the country in '96.
The biggest issue I see is where to build the Olympic Stadium and what to do with it when you're done.
CG
The west side is prime area, and it has already been selected.
And the Jets need a home.
I'm aware of the west side plans, but I don't think those who are pushing them have fully thought out the details.
The Jets do need a new home, but don't they need one sooner than 2012?
Olympic stadiums are too big for football -- you need to put a 400 meter track around the field, and then 100,000+ seats around the track. In many cases, particularly in the end zones, the front row will be 30 yards from the football field. The beauty of Giants Stadium is that it was configured for football only -- the playing area is even too small for a regulation soccer field.
Can the Jets draw 100,000 fans to a stadium with mostly crummy seats? Can the Jets draw 100,000 fans to any stadium?
What is the crime impact when you put down a building which will be roughly 5 blocks long and an avenue or more wide -- and then you use it only 10 times a year (assume 8 home games and 2 preseason games)?
I won't say that the NYC2012 movement is entirely off base, but it does suffer from some extreme short-sightedness. People see the tourist $$$ and think it's a windfall. In recent memory, the only olympiad that was a major financial boom for the host city was Los Angeles in '84. Montreal was a financial disaster. Atlanta didn't get nearly the financial influx that they'd planned on.
New York has the hotel rooms to host an Olympics -- but those rooms already are filled at a high occupancy rate. What do they want to do -- build new hotels just for the Olympics and then have the rooms sit vacant after that? In current times, hosting an olympiad is for 2nd tier cities that are looking to make a name for themselves as up-and-comers -- essentially looking to establish themselves as "world class" cities. Athens and Moscow are probably the only two exceptions to that since the 60's, and Athens was chosen for sentimental/historical reasons.
CG
... just one more logistical comment. The International Olympic Committee will require a second regulation size track -- with appropriate security -- be built within a quarter mile of the Olympic Stadium to serve as a warm-up and athlete check in facility.
Where is anyone proposing to build such a companion facility?
CG
I don't know. Maybe Randall's Island (about 3 - 4 miles away)? Whose location in the midst of one of the most heavily used toll plaza's in the United States makes it unacceptable?
Solutions:
Build hotels which can be converted easily to apartment houses once the games are over, as was done with the Olympic Villages in Montreal and other recent Olympic sites. If it works for the athletes' housing, it can work for hotels too. This will help the housing shortage in the city. I saw the rendering of the Olympic Village in Long Island City, and it looks like such redevelopment would be attractive, with apartments being made available to the public after the games cease.
Build an Olympic Stadium which is easily converted after the games are over to better suit "American" sports, as was done in Atlanta. Part of "Olympic Stadium" was torn down to create "Turner Field." Yes, the Jets have a wide fan-base, which would support them. I'd love to get Jets tickets, but they're sold out at Giants Stadium.
Build the 7 extension, but don't have it utilize 7th Ave. and 34th St. Rather, bust through and eliminate the 8th Ave. Lower Level platform and extend the tail tracks. Put a stop at 10th Avenue, to help serve the new development just beginning between 8th Ave. and the Hudson R. (which, sadly, is destroying Theatre Row). Then have the tracks turn south to the Javits Center/Stadium.
Build the LaGuardia Subway extension. Airtrain will be in operation by then, as well as the Newark Monorail connection to the NEC and possibly PATH. Beefed-up ferry service will help too.
"Build the 7 extension, but don't have it utilize 7th Ave. and 34th St. Rather, bust through and eliminate the 8th Ave. Lower Level platform and extend the tail tracks. Put a stop at 10th Avenue, to help serve the new development just beginning between 8th Ave. and the Hudson R. (which, sadly, is destroying Theatre Row). Then
have the tracks turn south to the Javits Center/Stadium."
"Build the LaGuardia Subway extension. Airtrain will be in operation by then, as well as the Newark Monorail connection to the NEC and possibly PATH.Beefed-up ferry service will help too."
You're forgetting somthing. There is also baseball and softball in the olympiad. That entails utilizing both stadiums for play, which entails that the current IRT lines that run to both facilities will be quickly overrun.
My suggestion is to do all that you have said, and in addtion add about two extra trunk lines in both Queens and the Bronx. In any case, they (the four potential lines) should have been built.
NYC needs the olympics like a hole in the head.
Hosting the games is a good idea for a city that is trying
to establish itself as a world-class location for tourism,
conferences, etc. I think NY is already on the map as far as
that goes.
>>> Hosting the games is a good idea for a city that is trying to establish itself as a world-class location for tourism, conferences, etc. I think NY is already on the map as far as that goes. <<<
That attitude is on a par with "It doesn't matter if corporations threaten to move their headquarters away from the City, there is nowhere else where they will have so much prestige."
Tom
Corporations having offices in New York is a sustainable source
of jobs and tax revenues. Hosting the Olympics is a one-shot
that will result in a mini-boom followed by a crash. Net long-term
gain for the city: 0, minus the debt service on the bonds we'd
float to finance all of the useless construction. Read Larry L's
thoughtful analysis.
As for the transit tie-in, yes, it would be nice to have the
Flushing line extension. Not important, but nice. It will
do very little to relieve the acute capacity and service level
problems in the system. To say that we need the Olympics to provide
the excuse to build it is like saying you need to buy a new car
because one of your tires is flat.
You did not read the contemporary european newspaper articles. Le Monde had a scathing series regarding the inadequacy of the transportation arrangements.
"You did not read the contemporary european newspaper articles. Le Monde had a scathing series regarding the inadequacy of the transportation arrangements. "
I didn't read them. I was there. I didn't experience any major difficulties with the transportation network (yes it was slow and occasionally there were 15 minute gaps in service -- but nothing I'd call major). I didn't hear any complaints from either the American or the European spectators I talked too. I didn't see any empty seats at the starting time for key events.
Some athletes did experience major problems getting to and from their venues -- especially during the first week of the games.
CG
It was the *press* that got the inadequate transportation. I read several NY-area papers that talked about how members of the media got short shrift.
But that's the problem -- or the positive. You were there, and you may not have seen any problem with a 15-block walk to the stadium from MARTA, but the world and national media had a tremendous problem with the arrangement, and trashed the Atlanta city officials and Olympic organizers as a result. And that's the bad public relations that no pol or big businessman working as an Olympic organizer wants on their record. That's why a west side Olympic stadium would speed construction of the No. 7 line becuase to those people, media perception trumps (in the real, not the Donald sense) reality.
And let's not forget that New York is just one of many contenders.
Given the way htings work in NYC, Trump will insist that it all occur in venues he will build and as it gets close to the date, New Jersey will sue *insisting* that New Jersey receive half of the events since New York is really the harbor and it belongs to New Jersey. Bottom line, they'll hold it in Chicago. Am I a cynic or what? :)
Pardon me for being a little unenthusiastic, but I find any bid by NYC in 2012 and also from what I've been reading Philadelphia in 2020 to be downright laughable, although you'd sooner see them in NYC than Philly.
Old, fully developed, modern American cities hosting a major international event? I simply can't picture it happening.
L.A. was still half-desert when they hosted the Games and Atlanta is mostly bckwoods, plenty of room to build.
Where in the hell would new facilities for the Games be located if the Games came to NYC? Can you say New Jersey?
I don't think even NYC could ever be prepared to handle such a major happening with it's current infrastructure. 12 years isn't enough time I think. The city's just now geting around to building a subway that's been on the table for 50 years and now they think they can host the Olympics?
As much as I'm railing on NYC, don't get me started on Philly.
There are at least 5 games, in my opinion before either city should even dare to suggest they could handle the crowds, accomodate the athletes and media and prepare facilites and the city for the eyes of the world.
Paris hosted the Olympics twice, it is older and even more difficult to build infrascture there.
London hosted the Olympics.
Athens has hosted and will again host the Olympics. One of the oldest cities in Europe.
I can list every city that has ever hosted the games since 1896, and your argument on age and development holds as much water as a colander.
You should do at least some homework.
Paris hosted the Olympics twice, it is older and even more difficult to build infrascture there.
It's hard to comprehend how agricultural and non-urban France and Paris used to be. Paris started on the Ile de la Cite, in the middle of the Seine, and expanded outward. This expansion did not reach its 1848 boundaries (the 20 arrondissements) until the 1920's.
The 1900 Olympics were held in the Bois de Boulogne, just past the 16th Arrondissement. The swimming events held in the Seine. The games also took second place to the 1900 Worlds Fair that was also held in the Bois. These Olympics were known as an organizational disaster.
The 1924 Olympics were held just outside the 1848 boundaries in the town of Colombes. These were the first modern Olympics, in that they had an "Olympic Village" for the participants, radio and media coverage, etc. It was also all farm land, when they started.
Paris' bid for the 2008 Olympics would have used the existing Stade de France on the outskirts.
London hosted the Olympics.
The 1948 games were played in the existing Wembly Stadium. The Olympic Village was the army barracks in Uxbridge.
You should do at least some homework.
I can do research, but I will never do any homework. The evil forces that have brought misery and suffering with little benefit on millions of school children in the form of "homework" deserve to be tried on charges of crimes against humanity and hanged.
You've forgotten that both Paris and London have transit systems larger than NYC. Unlike us Americans, they believe in the concept of public transportation as not "communist."
I don't think even NYC could ever be prepared to handle such a major happening with it's current infrastructure. 12 years isn't enough time I think. The city's just now geting around to building a subway that's been on the table for 50 years and now they think they can host the Olympics?
There won't even be 12 years. Beijing just got the 2008 Games. New York is just one of many contenders, and if it does get selected no one will know for sure until about 2005. That's not enough time to get any major subway or other infrastructure projects built absent some ASB* intervention.
* = ASB - Alien Space Bats, used on soc.history.what-if to mean a wildly improbable, deus ex machina turn of events that makes the impossible come true for the sake of discussion.
You can count Denver out. The IOC will never award any Games to the Mile High City, not after what happened here before. In 1970, the 1976 Winter Games were awarded to Denver. Concerns about financing resulted in a ballot proposal being overwhelmingly shot down in the 1972 general election. Basically, Coloradans told the IOC to take their Games and shove 'em. Innsbruck got the '76 Winter Games instead.
Maybe the proposed link to SI via Tunnel will take place - utilizing the new ballpark - and possibly sites on the North Shore of SI.???
Would be interesting.
SIRT - routed into either the 4/5 lines, N/R, etc??
It was supposed to be tied into the BMT. Remember, the ex-SIRT cars were built to the same external dimensions as the BMT standards.
Two words: won't happen.
It has always amazed me how the IOC has ignored the Media Capital of the World for their Games.....Facilites? How about the new Olympic Stadium on the West Side [with the #7 connection] for ceremonies, track and field,etc? For baseball, you have Yankee & Shea Stadiums [or whatever new park the Mets can wrangle] for Chrissakes..The Garden for basketball and boxing....How about a swimming/diving facility at Flushing Meadow?? Soccer-Use Michie Stadium up at West Point [TRYING to get a couple of events up here....LOL] Besides the main arena/stadium and the swimming [which the Jets want anyway], NY is VERY prepared with facilites that can be used...and IF NJ wants to cooperate, it makes even easier.......
It has always amazed me how the IOC has ignored the Media Capital of the World for their Games
It's the other way around. I don't believe New York has ever bid on the Olympics.
MARTA did the same thing! We loaned buses to MARTA as did NJT.
(There seems to be a lot of idealism in the press about bringing the Summer Games to NYC in 2012, esp. since Beijing (of all places) got the AOK for 2008. All of a sudden, the whole debate about the
transit nightmares a stadium on the west side, as well as the two and a half weeks of over - capacity crowds, went out the window.)
Since I was involved in this thing before fleeing the Department of City Planning, and was present at a full briefing, I can actually add some facts about what these folks have in mind.
Before we get to transportation, let's talk about money. NY 2012 says the Olympics will pay for themselves, but this isn't so. They are assuming the Olympic Stadium will already be there, paid for by someone else. And they assume that the property tax revenues from new office development on the West Side will be used to pay for the Flushing Line extension and Olympics, not anything else. Not schools. Not the Second Avenue Subway. Not tax reduction. And that development, if the Flushing Line were extended and zoning permitted, would develop anyway in the next economic upturn. So they are capturing the tax revenues, not generating them as they say.
NY 2012 also didn't deal with the city's crunching shortage of hotel rooms. It simply said that demand is lower in the summer, so the city's 60,000 hotel rooms (less than Chicago) would be enough. That's the second big problem.
If anything, the plans don't call for enough sports in New Jersey. Olympics that didn't bankrupt their hosts used lots of existing facilities. There are lots of existing facilities in NJ. NJ was participating in the planning, but pulled out since part of the plan was to relocate the Jets from NJ. That's the third big problem.
Everywhere else, states and the federal government put up much of the infrastructure money. But the Vampire State and the federales like to such money out of NYC not put money in, and NYC's "representatives" always agree in exchange for big money for "their" non-profits. That's the fourth big problem.
NY 2012 wants the City to hand it a host of prime sites, which will be taken off the market and reserved for an Olympics that might never come. Queens Borough President Shulman has already said that she wants the side of the proposed Olympic Village in Long Island City developed now, now held vacant. That's big problem number four.
NY's public review process is so long and litigation friendly that anyone could hold up any and all of their venues until the Olympics was over, unless and until they were bought off. In a meeting, I suggested a state over-ride of any and all reviews (like the one used to widen the LIE) as the only feasible course. They said they would consider it. Call that big problem number four.
Aside from that, the plans are reasonable. The Olympics requires plans for three streams of people -- the fans, the athletes, and the media.
The fans are easy -- NY 2012 worked out a plan with the MTA to schedule all the events to generate trips at non-rush hour times. All the venues would be adjacent to the subway or PATH, with no parking. TrainDude and the like would have to schedule maintenance so that peak hour service would be available 16 hours per day for the entire Olympic period, and RTO workers would have to agree to lots of overtime. But the non-rush hour capacity of NY's rail transit system is, for all foreseeable purposes, unlimited.
The problem is moving the athletes -- and keeping them safe from terrorists. That's where the "Olympic X" comes in. All the venues would also be either on the waterfront, on the Port Washington Line, or on the Northeast Corridor line in NJ. Athletes would move on dedicated trains, or ferries which would be used by the public when the Olympics were over.
The media would be stuck on the street in buses, but with police escorts and the right of way.
On balance: GO TAMPA, NY's main competitor for designation and the U.S. applicant!
I really ought to read my posts and edit them before sending. For those who are wondering, I can count to more than four. There are SIX problems.
Interesting points. Personally, I don't like this competition among cities to host the Olympics. I'd support building a permanent site in Greece, with top-notch dedicated facilities, and holding the Games there every four years. It could be designated international territory like the U.N. or Antarctica.
If there wasn't so much international competition for attention, as there is now, maybe such an idea could come to fruition.
(Q) 57st / 7 ave via Broadway Express.
Transfer to < Q > to the Bronx at 34 st.
I actually laughed out loud at that sign.
BTW: Way to go MTA, thanks to your wonderful idea of putting new signage up a week before, the confusion will be present both the last week of the old plan and the first week of the new one. Job well done.
Please note: All the signs on the northbound platform are like this. I counted four.
Hmm, transfer to the to the Bronx at 34th St.
Jay st. had better get somebody down to DeKalb to spray over that sign quick, or else there will be H*** to pay on Sunday and the Monday AM rush.
Hmm, transfer to the Q to the Bronx at 34th St.
Jay st. had better get somebody down to DeKalb to spray over that sign quick, or else there will be H*** to pay on Sunday and the Monday AM rush.
Incidentally, they've changed the D/Q-side signs, but not the M/N/R-side ones, so for late-night R service to Queens you're still told to take the D to West Fourth for the E/F.
>>>BTW: Way to go MTA, thanks to your wonderful idea of putting new signage up a week before, the confusion will be present both the last week of the old plan and the first week of the new one. Job well done. <<<
I am no big fan of the MTA and cannot believe I am defending them but, when do you think they should change the signs? It cannot be done in one day. There is going to be confusion no matter which way you cut it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Cover over the sign NOW with a corrected sign made of cardboard!
...and waste even more time?
Peace,
ANDEE
NO JUST DO WHAT I SAY AND GET THERE AT 4:00 P.M.!
I MEAN A.M.
When the speed limit on many of New York's highways went up from 55 to 65 a few years ago (1995?), all the signs were changed overnight, IINM. I was driving on I-81 about a week before the change, and the new signs were already installed, directly behind the old ones. I guess the crews went around the night of the change and plucked out the old ones -- probably took no more than a few hours.
I don't see why the same couldn't be done here.
Talking about changes overnight on signs. Way back in 1985 when Delta Airlines bought Western Airlines. The changeover date was a Sundaynight. Western was a big airline. When I went home at 9.00PM Sunday Night you could tell that Western was still there. When I came into work at LAX at 8.00AM, you can see the difference. All Western Signs were gone, replaced by Delta. Western s Headquarters were across the street from the Airport. The 4 story Western Sign was gone, no replacement for a couple weeks, but get this. EVERY PLANE that was on Westerns Fleet, had the name and logo painted over, and read Delta. Not a trace of the name of Western Airlines was left throughout the whole system. Now that was fast
When you operate for a profit and have a corporate image to promote and protect, you do things like that.
-Hank
>>I don't see why the same couldn't be done here.<<
Because, highway signs are not subway signs. You are suggesting placing new signs behind existing signs, something pretty musch impossible to do on the platform.
Changing the sign now will not cause a lot of confusion as Henry R32 suggested. Most rush hour riders don't even pay attention to the signs, and the only people who do right now are the tourists. They're going to be lost either way.
Why is it impossible to place one sign behind another?
Or to install new signs side-by-side with the old ones, but covered up? Saturday night, remove the wrapping and pull down the old signs.
I don't think this is a terribly big deal, but I don't see why the entire process couldn't be done in a few hours.
>>Why is it impossible to place one sign behind another?<<
There's these things running behind the signs, you may have seen them, called trains. Plus, outside stations don't have the space. and there's a third reason. (see next paragraph)
>>Or to install new signs side-by-side with the old ones, but covered up? Saturday night, remove the wrapping and pull down the old signs.<<
You want to waste all that money? The lines that need re-signing are:
Astoria elevated line
60th st tunnel
Broadway express tracks
DeKalb Av.
Pacific st/36th st
West End Line
Entire Brighton Line
Putting in all new signs would be a frivolous expenditure. Why do that when you could use the perfectly good sign frames right there. And again, this will cause virtually no confusion.
>>I don't think this is a terribly big deal, but I don't see why the entire process couldn't be done in a few hours.<<
Thats a lot of work to be doe overnight. That would take quite a while...
>>> You are suggesting placing new signs behind existing signs, something pretty musch impossible to do on the platform. <<<
Not really so hard. The new signs could be installed during the week or two before the change with temporary old signs over them held on with adhesive that could be easily removed with a solvent and discarded during the early morning hours on the day of the change.
Tom
We are talling STICKERS here people. They aren't pulling down signs, just placing stickers over them. The Brighton Kings Hwy Manhattan bound stop has two BLACK stickers over the words Bronx adn Queens and Q stickers over the D and the Q (orange).
Stickers are even easier and faster to install than signs. Each station should take no more than ten minutes to cover (pun not intended) with a few guys working. This could have been done in one night.
Alright. That could be done in one night. But, I repeat:
THIS IS NOT CAUSING ANY KIND OF CONFUSION!!!
Given the normally high degree of confusion among all but the regulars, how can one tell?
I've seen dozens of people who would disagree with you, and that was only on one trip on the D.
As I said, it's not a very big deal either way.
But I'm sure it's causing some confusion. Given that the situation is already confusing enough even with accurate signage, wouldn't it be better to avoid whatever's avoidable?
Everybody at Stillwell is asking me for the B and I point them in the direction of the W. Very weird.
let's keep in mind that there are still a few markers for the K service along CPW.....
This is the same agency that starts changing their station clocks
(not the new digital ones) for the EST/EDT switch days in advance.
Actually, the advertising contractor changes the station clocks.
David
I stand corrected!
I was expecting more along the lines of Friday night and through Saturday.
...when the sign is being removed before the service change! Last weekend, the Surf Ave entrance to Stillwell terminal had FNQW signs, but sometime between then and yesterday, the entrance closed and the sign came down!
Photos
Also, they haven't gotten the really big D sign yet; notice the directional signs to the Q further down the passageway. Also, the crews only covered over "Bronx," so those Qs are going to "Manhattan &"
Huh? What's the error?
34th St. is where former D riders who now must take the Q will be able to catch a Bronx-bound D train, isn't it? So, the sign seems right to me.
Are you complaining that the sign didn't say something like "Uptown, Bronx, and Queens", since you can get the D or F at 34th St? If so, that is hardly a "big flagrant error".
Ferdinand Cesarano
It should say transfer to the (D) to Bronx at 34th Street, not the . The doesen't go to The Bronx.
Peace,
ANDEE
It should say transfer to the (D) to Bronx at 34th Street, not the Q . The Q doesen't go to The Bronx.
Yep, there you go! Duh on me.
I was concentrating on looking for the error in the transfer point or the destination; I totally overlooked the letter.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Get a picture before someone corrects it.
My friend did. Priceless.
Post it!!!!
Whoooooooooops!!!!
I ran into Eric B at DeKalb this afternoon and we figured out what happened. At the sign at the front end of the platform, he noticed that the diamond-Q was a label that was stuck on carelessly. He peeked underneath and found an orange D. Here's my guess: First, the signs were updated properly. Then, somebody went around overzealously slapping yellow Q's over all the orange D's -- including the ones on the brand new signs. (I have no idea why he used the diamonds, though. Apparently this same guy was down at Sheepshead Bay, where the southbound express platform still has orange Q's but the local platform has diamond-Q's. Whoops.)
Might be the work of those who print those "Karma Conditioned Car-Please Keep Minds Open" and slap them everywhere.
Several C/Rs and station announcements are warning about the future Manny B changes coming next week. Was this an order given down, or an independent act by the people who will be at the front lines on the 23rd in a futile attempt to promote public awareness?
Sigh, yesterday was the last time there'd ever be a Sunday schedule for the north side, at least until 2004/5.
It is in the "Weekly GO's" sheets that we get. The annoucement making are supposed to start tomorrow but some C/R's are getting an early start to it. C/R's in both divisions are to make these annoucements.
PLEASE NOT WHEN THE DOORS ARE OPEN.
The whole ride in on the D today the C/R made the annoucment only when the doors were open. This extended our dwell time and made the trip longer.
Please not during rush, or if you have to, do it between stations.
If Im on a Redbird such as Ill be on today. (Job on the 5) It will be hard to do between stations. If we stop in the tunnel, then Ill make the annoucement.
The 5 (outside Manhattan) I can understand but this is the Brighton LOCAL, he could have covered it between stations. He ended each station with "stand clear..."
I just felt we were talking longer then normal with the FULL annoucement covering the stops on the Broadway and every thing at each and every stop.
Since some of you are members of streetcar museums and I'm not (yet anyways and no current plans on joining), I'd like to ask a few questions about the training on the actual operation of vehicles and not on the various broader less vehicle specific subjects like safety, history of the museum etc. that you receive.
First of all, I've found that many members of the local streetcar museum like to scream and yell, sometimes literally, about how terribly difficult a task operating streetcars is and how it requires extensive and exhaustive training in order to do so. Is this a common 'attitude' at most streetcar museums?
My second point, the training itself, is directly related to the first. I've also found that the actual training on the vehicles at the local streetcar museum is rather rudimentary, despite what they like to say about it as I've mentioned above. I'm writing two examples down to convey some of what I mean by this:
First example: the last time I was at the local streetcar museum they had an all electric PCC (4600) out and it was being driven by a person who had earned a probationary qualification on it which means that a fully qualified person has to be on it while it is being operated by someone with only a probationary qualification. The person operating 4600 wasn't using some of the controls properly (using the signal bell instead of the gong - there is a big difference as the signal bell emits a little ding behind the driver's head whereas the gong is the streetcar equivelent of a car horn) and I ended up pointing it out while the instructor either didn't notice or didn't think it was important enough to comment on. Later that day, I was riding the all electric PCC again and the same person was operating it and there were two other different fully qualified operators supervising when it simply wouldn't take power when pulling out of the loop. None of the three operators were able to find the problem and correct it to get the PCC moving again so I ended up going to the front of the streetcar and taking care of what was wrong (the very picky reverser handle had ever so slightly budged, within its tactile notch, just enough to disengage the forward selection - the most frequent cause I find for a good all electric PCC to suddenly fail without providing any telltale symptoms other than the brakes releasing but it then refuses to go).
At other trolley museums, do volunteers only get 'basic training' on the vehicles they operate, or do they receive a more comprehensive education what the most common in operation problems are and their solutions?
Second example: Last year at the museum's extravaganza, the unit of Gloucster cars made a couple of trips up and down the line as usual. The person driving them finished their last trip and stopped them on their normal parking spot on an infrequently used shop lead. Then he walked into 5099, set the handbrakes and switched off the air compressor and then strolled through to the other car and set 5098's handbrakes and shut off the motor generator set. However, the driver decided to leave the interior lights on in both cars - including the 50 volt emergency lights that are backed up off of the train's battery bank in addition to the main lights which are powered directly from their own 600 volt circuit connected to the main +600v distribution line in each car. Leaving the interiors of the subway cars lit up was certainly a nice idea but, by the time I checked on the Gloucsters near the end of day to see if something had been done to prevent it, the emergency lights had drained off the train's batteries because the MG set had been shut off. The batteries ended up being externally recharged later.
I think this sort of thing gets filed under the heading of Silly little easy to make mistakes that result in an annoying nusiance. Even so, shouldn't there be training on things not to do to the vehicles? The subway cars are the highest up the ladder of things to train on and their drivers must have a lot of experience and prior training that goes with it so I was still quite surprised to see this done.
Lastly, I've also found that the vast majority of the drivers at the local trolley museum, while they know how to operate the vehicle they are driving, don't actually know how and why it works or much at all in terms of the various equipment used on the various streetcars and subway train units. I personally think that some of this knowledge should be included in the training program for each vehicle because this kind of knowledge would enable the staff to answer more questions from visitors, help them understand how to operate the vehicles properly and certainly help them a) diagnose failures when they occur and b), if applicable, fix them on the spot, both a and b being outlined above. Do other streetcar museums provide this sort of training? And what are your thoughts on all of this in general?
-Robert King
P. S.: This has been prompted by two separate conversations I've had with two separate friends earlier today, one of which was asking various questions about how to operate some of the museum's vehicles and the other who was asking me why I haven't joined the museum.
At Seashore, training is extensive, but designed to get the new operator comfortable with the car(s). (Remember, many operate differently).
The best analogy is learning to drive an automobile: It's easy right? Gas to go, brake to stop. But in reality there's a lot more to it than that. So we teach the basic "mechanics" of running the streetcar, but also some of the how and why. And since you'd be operating an antique vehicle in a relatively dangerous environment, we teach what can go wrong and how to deal with it, as well as how to make sure our visiting public enjoys their visit and learns a lot as well.
So in a nutshell, you're correct: The very basic part of stop-and-go is not that difficult. But an effective teaching/training program must have a lot more to it than that.
The very basic part of stop-and-go is not that difficult. But an effective teaching/training program must have a lot more to it than that.
I know. My problem is, is that they are not doing the second half of that (or only minimally) - and I've always thought they should, although that was always my personal opinion and I don't know if others have the same thoughts on the subject. I honestly think the museum's training programs and standards for operator knowledge aren't as high as they should be and certainly aren't as high as they say they are. (It shouldn't be necessary for trained volunteers to email me with questions about the vehicles they operate or ask me in person when I visit the museum. The fact that this happens frequently seems to indicate that something just isn't be right here with respect to the training that's given.)
-Robert King
Robert, you seem very knowledgable about the cars you mentioned above. Perhaps your contribution to the museum should be a written manual of sorts on those cars you're familiar with. At Seashore, various members (myself included) have contibuted manuals and documents that have been used in training on the wide variety of cars we have.
I'm not sure how I feel about volunteer motormen making running repairs. I wouldn't be real comfortable having a weekend warrior pulling the cover off a controller with a boatload of passengers and the pole still up. I've seen it done.
Also, a volunteer must be interested in the subject matter for him to keep volunteering. Generally, people who have or acquire an interest in the mechanics of streetcars will spend some of their time in the shops, helping out there.
I'm usually pleased if the student handles the car well, knows all his emergency procedures and has a basic knowledge of the railroad he's operating on. After that, I can only hope he will develope an interest in the working of the car, the history that we teach and learning techniques which will enable him to convey this material to the guests of the museum.
Instead of asking why these guys are asking you all the questions, you should be asking yourself why you aren't helping them and the museum you obviously care about.
Yes, I do care about the museum but I give up.
I would ask by what route you became a mechanical expert on these
cars, evidently never being a member of any museum or a transit
agency employee.
I've run into this kind of attitude or mindset more or less continuously for nearly two years for having tried, but when I find it plastered on a forum like this, it means the writing is clearly on the wall. There's nothing I can do about it; joining the museum hasn't been possible financially and won't be for at least the rest of this year while working for the TTC is out of the question on medical grounds, and in hindsight I should have realised that I would hardly be taken seriously by anybody, either here or at the museum, because I don't have the only universally recognised credentials of being a member of a streetcar museum or a transporation authority with the resultant credibility necessary to back me up. Without it, the knowledge and, to a much lesser extent, experience that I do have is useless and hardly worth a damn to anybody. That's the long and short of the situation.
-Robert King
Robert,
I don't know the intent of the poster who wrote what you quoted but I wouldn't take it so hard. I think it is a legitimate question to ask. For instance, I'm not a transit agency employee nor have I ever volunteered at a transit museum. I've never had any hands-on the guts of a trolley or other electric transit car and I'm not an electrical engineer. So it doesn't seem like a bad question- How do I know what I know about electric transit? I think in your original post on the topic you posted a couple of scenarios where the museum volunteers clearly didn't know all the ins-and-outs of the cars, whereas you did. To some people, and in fact maybe the museum volunteers themselves if you had pointed out the error being made and the consequence, might have viewed you as an expert on the subject and would be naturally curious where you got your skills.
On the other hand, when talking to people on here and at museums who have had the hands on experience dealing with trolleys and transit cars, it might be an asset to have some credible "association" with a transit agency or museum in order to back up what you know.
A lot of people, especially here, are quick to rip you down but not too quick to explain why their viewpoints are more credible than yours. I wouldn't take it too personally. But don't expect to be able to waltz into a museum and point out errors the staff are making without being asked how do you know what you know. I would consider it a more curious inquiry rather than trying to debate where you obtained your knowledge.
-Dave
At the same time Dave, there ARE some people who are also more full of themselves than they deserve to be. People who have worked on an industrial floor have often seen situations where a piece of large rotary equipment refuses to "go" because a switch isn't fully making contact and it doesn't require a BS in EE to figure out if you jiggle the handle, it will go.
Given the sneering attitudes of some educrat types that inhabit "educational facilities" who clearly know everything, one would expect that in an environment that projects such an image, they truly WOULD know "everything" ... perhaps that's where he's coming from. I've been duly impressed over the years here with the attitudes of the folks from the Kingston TMNY and Branford (though I suspect Seashore is also similarly humble) as opposed to the "formal press release" I saw yesterday from a spokesperson for the IRM in Illinois. I personally favor the attitude of the locals here since after all, it's a museum, not a political subdivision.
But really, there's a number of people who lecture here who really could use a few pounds less air in their tires. :)
The way I found out about the trick of giving the reverser handle a wiggle was quite similar to your shop floor example. Over time when I used to go riding on PCCs, I noticed that most of the time when a PCC refused to take off after a stop the drivers would shake the reverser handle then click it back into its position and the PCC would resume working as normal. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the driver's area of one of these PCCs to refer you to on the internet but the reverser handle is located on the floor beside the driver's seat, the fare box, and the area at the front where passengers go by to get to and from the front doors and pay their fares, so it is relatively well exposed to a busy area and easily bumped out of position just enough to cause the PCC not to work - especially when the number of people passing through that little area at a busy stop during rush hour is considered.
-Robert King
No surprise there ... when something doesn't work as expected and a miracle cure occurs, those are the things we all tend to notice. I learned about the "drop the reverser to kill the deadman" on R1/9's from a motor instructor during my road training who swore that if I ever told anyone the trick he'd shown me that he would personally find me and beat me into road tar if I ever told anyone else about the trick. I could see showing it to museum folk and watching the eyes open wide - it ain't in the book. Then again, some of the museum folks here are every bit as nuts as I am and have probably discovered that trick themselves ... I know if it's been maintained, 1689 at Branford can do this trick, so can Seashore's ...
But you learn a lot of these "tricks" in very informal (and COMPLETELY UNAPPROVED) ways. :)
Actually that one IS in the books, but maybe not the operating
dept. books that were being given to m/m :)
Wasn't in the manuals the TA handed out at the time. Then again, I learned a LOT of undocumenteds between the old timers that trained me and the car inspectors who would pop in and say, "next time it does this, just whack this thing here" ... heh. The TA was a lot more fun in those days. :)
So that's what those ball peen hammers were for.:-)
And shoe paddles to operate the breakers safely ... yeah, the R1's through 10's were truly a tinkerer's delight. Often a good quick smack fixed a recalcitrant car ... and it was funny, as long as you called a car inspector out (to justify the job) they didn't care if it was you or them that whacked the door mechanisms. :)
Just to let you know, though I did do some time with the NYCTA over 30 years ago, I don't consider myself to be an "expert" on any of this myself. There are some elitist types here and in some museums and their beratings SHOULD be ignored. FWIW, I've ALWAYS enjoyed your observations (and remember your comments about the lights still being left on a few months ago) ...
Dunno what it is about the internet, but it DOES encourage some people to become bullyish and stupid and do things they'd NEVER dare do face to face lest theirs get bashed in. Forgive the idiots, some of us like you VERY much ... Je suis un Uhmerican (sniff sniff). :)
Those comments were about the way a TTC driver shut down a PCC at the end of a fan trip in Toronto. (I guess the TTC being a transportation agency makes them fair game here :-) I'm still puzzled as to why the driver decided to shut down the PCC at the end of the trip though. The TTC normally leaves them up and running, as they do with all the other streetcars, so that they can be driven around under their own power which makes day to day yard movements in an operating carhouse as easy to do as possible. Shhh - it also makes something else as easy to do as possible(!)
Thanks,
Robert King
Probably just following the propers of "if you ain't using it, don't be sucking electrons needlessly, after all, they need watts for tots down in California and we're neighbourly." :)
And after all, when you throw the switch in modern equipment, "off" means "off" ... whoops.
Robert,
Your post above seems to imply that I said something I didn't. I made no comments on your creditials. I think you know what you're talking about in regard to the PCC's. Forget the creditial crap.
Write out the things you know about the cars. Give them to your friends. Offer them to the museum, even if you're not a member. I'd be pleased to get a copy, as I'm always looking for more info on operating various cars.
Like other people have suggested, ignore the person that made the statement that you quoted. Your knowledge is a valuable. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I think you are quite right in your assertion that the best training would include the how's and why's, mechanically speaking. I, for one, hope to learn much more than "stop" and "go" when I get my training. I would feel like a moron if I were unable to answer the mechanical questions as well as the historical ones, were I to be operating for paying guests at Rockhill.
But keep in mind that most of the staff of these museums is volunteer, and it's quite a lot asking them to put in the kind of time required to get them up to speed on all of the mechanics of the various equipment. I have in my possession a rulebook from Seashore circa 197-something, which is two inches think, typewritten in single-spaced paragraphs. Personally, I would love to comb through that book till I were thoroughly knowledgable before grabbing a brake handle, but I doubt I'd be able to do that quickly.
At Rockhill, even our President is a volunteer, yet he spends most weekends sleeping at the museum. There are a few others who do the same. These are dedicated people, but they can't be expected to do all of the jobs. In fact, many of the members less able to put in that kind of time contribute monetarily to the museum, and want to learn to operate streetcars. This helps keep the museum alive. Anyway, there is always someone at the museum when it is open who can solve a mechanical problem should it come up.
All of that being said, I am not yet qualified at our museum, so I'm not certain of the training. The times I've visited or worked there, however, the motormen seemed to know what they were doing. I feel like a babe in the woods when I watch them, or when I have asked them to explain some of the mechanics. I guess the more training and practice I get, I will only get better. But I agree, there's nothing wrong with more thorough training balanced with serving the needs of an all-volunteer organization.
All of the streetcar museums that I've read about operate this way. Unfortunately, I've only been able to visit a lamentably small number of trolley museums and see how they work in person, not to mention enjoy riding and photographing the vehicles.
Regarding the 1970s rule book, I can understand its size. I've found from my own experience that these sort of documents, especially when the become very technical in nature, tend to grow very large whether they cover streetcar technical material, audio/video technical material, computer programming material, or physics work whenver it becomes long and involved. I did a reasonably small computer project with two other people a couple of years ago but all of the documentation when nicely organised and filed in binder stuffed a 1.5 inch spined binder to the gills although our program itself only occupied a very small fraction of an 880kb floppy disk. The resulting presentation, which I'd say covered approximately 60% to 65% of the binder, including a fairly thorough demonstration of our software took about 45 minutes although I do have to admit everybody attending the presentation was well up to speed on computers so we didn't have to cover the basic groundwork. This wouldn't be a case with training at a streetcar museum, but I've found from discussing streetcars myself that it takes much less time to convey information in person than it does for either me to write it all down or someone else to read and absorb it all. This paragraph wouldn't take long at all to discuss with someone, but it took me quite a while to write it out and it will probably take a while to read as well and then one can just consider the quantity of text too, as a further example.
I'd agree that if you have the time to eventually work your way through the rule book, it would be a beneficial read. Anyways, good luck at your museum.
-Robert King
The month long of Saturdays that BERA does its training does cover some of the basics of electricity and traction. This past year they took a track cart out and showed how flanges work over rail and switches (which I think was a huge plus). Even derailed the thing through a switch that was not properly aligned (amazing how the shop guys could tell what happened by looking at the grease on the rails).
But most of these people are as stated volunteers, they paid their membership dues to do this (plus cost of training material) and want to move the cars.
BERA right now has 5 service cars, 2 straight air and 2 safety car with 629 the 3rd Ave car in a class by herself. You have to first road qualify and then qualify on each type of the service car.
I'll let Jeff H. if he wants to answer more about BERA since he knows a lot more about the training there. >G<.
Was this, by any chance, the Halton Radial Railway Museum, Rockford (outside of Toronto) Ontario?
It certainly is - no other museum has a unit of Gloucster cars, so my discription about the flattening experience their batteries had would have given them away to anybody familiar with the roster.
Anyways, I'm beginning to get uneasy about acting as a source of information on the equipment for several of my friends who volunteer there. My biggest concern is comprised of two related points:
1) Information that I have and give these people is, at best, highly unofficial. Remember: I'm not a member of the HCRR and by virtue of that I'm also not on their training committee. This means that not only am I not qualified by the museum on any of their vehicles but that I'm also unqualified as an instructor, mentor, source of information or whatever term might be applied to this position that I'm somewhat increasingly finding myself in.
2) The worst case sceneraio that I can see that could arise is something going wrong (this can have its own degrees of severety) because a few people, a number easily counted on one hand with a couple of fingers left over, may be using unofficial advice or information that I've provided on request, as I've outlined in point #1. The last thing I want to see happening is one of my friends, or anybody for that matter, getting stuck when something goes wrong or in the worst case get into an accident - and I've already had one damn good scare, althought it fortunately did turn out to be just a scare without anything to actually be afraid of and luckily not a near accident - because of this.
My personal feelings are that the HCRR training programs need to be changed so that volunteers are well prepared with a full complement of information in order to operate the vehicles with a minimum of uncertainty. Yes, I've tried talking to the museum about this in the past, but...
-Robert King
At the Baltimore Streetcar Museum our training course is structured to take a volunteer who knows nothing about streetcars except that they run on tracks and go "ding-ding" and turn out a safe, reliable operator. It starts with a "get acquainted" trip (supervised by an Instructor) to allow the student to understand what it is to operate a streetcar. This is done with a double-end car and is point-to-point, with no switches crossed.
The class then continues for 10 days (all Saturdays) and includes a basic tour of the works of a car (conduced by a member of BSM's Rolling Stock & Shops Department), plus classroom work. There is a pair of sessions dealing with the docent part (car history, talks on the car, etc.), two that deal with fare collection and accounting, including training on being a Cashier (you deal with admissions from the visitors, plus phone calls and visitor questions).
Once the basics of being a Conductor are learned, a written examination is given. If the student passes, they then must work with a qualified Conductor for 15 trips (3 operating days, 5 trips each). Sometime during the 3rd day, an Instructor will observe the student's ability, and if satisfactory, the student receives a temporary Conductor badge and becomes qualified as a Conductor. Meanwhile, the classes continue, and at the conclusion of the second half of the course a written examination for Motorman is given. If the student passes, they then repeat the process as a student Motorman. Under the supervision of a Motorman-Line Instructor. (A Motorman-Line Instructor is a qualifed Motorman who the School of Instruction has certifed is able to have a student in their charge.) After 15 more trips (Same 3 days of 5 trips) the same process occurs again and the student is qualifed as a Motorman. He recieves either a badge with the student's membership number (a permanent badge) or a temporary badge and is a fully qualified Motorman/Conductor. The permanent badge will always have the member's number and will be obtained as soon as possible.
Once qualified, the member may then qualify as an Operator (one-man cars) and may eventually move into supervision, becoming an Instructor or a Dispatcher.
We have been doing our training this way since 1970. We have people with 30 year service pins on their coatsleeves and people who still have 9000 series temporary badges. Everybody went through the same process.
We do allow qualified people from other Musuems to become qualified at BSM. They must, of course, be member of BSM, and they don't have to take the whole 10 day course, as the School of Instruction will determine what the need to learn. We have had people from National Captial, Pennsylvania Trolley Museum and other Museums join us. One of the folks from PTM, altough only had to attend session 3,4,5 & 7, but stayed for the whole 10 days, saying that he learned things he never got at PTM and it made him a better operator at PTM, as well as an operating member of BSM.
It seems to me that most of the problems take place in the same window of opportunity as they do with automobile drivers: when they've been driving long enough to be confident, but not necessarily long enough to be expert enough to justify their confidence. At the Illinois Railway Museum, our training programs try and minimize that window by using a sort-of stepping-stone training program. The first step is the basic safety/rules qualification, a written and oral exam of 100 questions which - once passed - allows the person to serve as a groundman or conductor. The person generally does not learn to operate any equipment until they've served at least a year as being a trainman or conductor. Then, when they are ready to learn to operate equipment, they must first learn on straight-air streetcars. They are restricted to operating these lightweight cars on the streetcar line and yard trackage for a year. After a year, assuming they are considered to be doing well, they can be trained on the heavyweight interurban cars and are allowed to operate on the 40mph main line.
This method seems to work pretty well. Unfortunately, most of the slack areas involve the people who are teaching the trainees how to operate specific cars. Most of our "qualifiers" are both experienced operators and have done work on repairing and maintaining the equipment; this means that during the process of training they can teach the operators about the "hows" and "whys" of the cars. IRM has taken steps in recent years to formalize the training and confirmation of qualifiers.
In the end, a few of the less competent will fall through the cracks. While it shouldn't happen, in a volunteer outfit it often will. One way to deal with this is to train everyone you can as well as you can, to provide a safety net. Once or twice, I have heard of an astute conductor pulling the panic cord when he observed his train passing a signal it was not authorized to pass. Also, the museum must make it policy to not tolerate these sorts of mistakes. IRM has permanently disqualified a few motormen over the years, and temporary suspensions for minor infractions are not uncommon. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that we're all just human.
I really can't comment on HCRR's training program as I'm fairly
unfamiliar with that museum and the people there.
I would ask by what route you became a mechanical expert on these
cars, evidently never being a member of any museum or a transit
agency employee.
As a rule, operating personnel on any railway, museum or otherwise,
are not expected to be able to make running repairs to the
equipment! At Branford, they are trained on normal operating procedures and certain emergency procedures, such as stopping a car which has lost its air brakes or dealing with a fire. Any other
problem, they are told, call the supervisor or the shop on the radio.
We and every other museum training program I've seen provide an
overview of how a streetcar works mechanically and electrically,
but there is a long winding path between understanding series/parallel
motors and being able to diagnose a grounded armature. In fact,
our rulebook specifically forbids ordinary operating personnel from
making repairs to the equipment.
If you find that you are the conduit of information concerning
basic operating facts for your friends who presumably are qualified operators there, then either they are not following correct procedures for finding the information, or they've been told and did not
retain it, or maybe there is a problem with HCRR's training program.
Again, since I'm not familiar with it, I'd rather not speculate.
I would ask by what route you became a mechanical expert on these
cars, evidently never being a member of any museum or a transit
agency employee.
First of all, I am not a mechanical expert on these things but I do have a reasonably good knowledge of them. You are overstating things quite a bit here. Although I do know a quantity of information that I would term useful (as I frequently make use of it), I am not a walking encyclopedia of an expert as you seem to imply.
Secondly, frankly, more than just those two routes exist. Do you really care to find out where I've been getting most of my information? My great grand uncle who died several years ago was, for all intents and purposes, an engineer and accumulated a substantial library of books, including a large number dating from the 1890s up untill PCC cars and Brillliners on the subject STREET RAILWAY EQUIPMENT AND RELATED INFORMATION TO THAT FIELD. There are an even larger number of books from the same period of time covering ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING, and MECHANICAL ENGINEERING. I've only read through a small number of them while at the cottage but they are my primary source of information. I've been planning on going through them one at a time more thoroughly whenever I can in my spare time after I move them here. I'm sorry if reading is an unconventional and controversial method of learning to you, but I find it particularly useful.
Thank you for your vote of confidence.
-Robert King
I am not a walking encyclopedia of an expert as you seem to imply.
I didn't imply that. You did. The entire tone of your posts
for the past year concerning HCRy has been "those guys are a
bunch of reckless morons, I know better than they, but they
won't listen to me".
I've never been to Halton County, I don't know anyone from there,
and I don't think I've even had any dealings with them through
ARM. So, that place could be anything from a shit hole to the
utopia of railway museums. I really have no way of knowing, and
no way of evaluating your claims in that light.
I can tell you, however, and if you read carefully you are being
told the same thing by my colleagues from other museums, that
if you walk into any railway museum with that kind of attitude,
you will be rebuffed. Book learning is great and in fact a
prerequisite to many kinds of work. We send our trainees about
100 pages of study materials to read before they first walk on to
a streetcar. I read the PCC maintenance manuals cover to cover
twice before I would even think about dropping the pans. But,
you don't have _experience_ until you've actually _done it_,
as opposed to reading about doing it.
So don't get bent out of shape if the amount of your practical
experience is called into question. Regardless of which museum
or "real-world" transit operation you get involved with, you'll
find you'll get a lot further with the attitude of "I'm prepared
to work and learn" as opposed to "I already know this".
You also mentioned in another post that it was too expensive for
you to join your local museum. I don't claim to have an intuitive
grasp of the exchange rates, but according to their web pages,
associate membership is $48 CDN per year, and that doesn't seem
too steep, even on a tight student budget.
Thought I'd register my "two cents worth" here since I do volunteer at a trolley museum.
[First of all, I've found that many members of the local streetcar museum like to scream and yell, sometimes literally, about how terribly difficult a task operating streetcars is and how it requires extensive and exhaustive training in order to do so. Is this a common 'attitude' at most streetcar museums?]
I don't find alot of 'screaming and yelling' from members at BERA --Branford Electric Railway -- the museum I belong to. You'd have to cite specifics for me before I could comment on that aspect. However, the training that I (and others -- some of whom post here) received was thorough but not what I would consider 'exhaustive'. Safety was considered priemium in our training (and should always be so everywhere).
To answer your 'example #1': Probationary persons at BERA do not operate under 'normal passenger conditions' unless they are supervised by a qualified Operator, as far as I recall (Jeff H. would better answer this question). As well, the Qualified Operator is NOT required to be a mechanical engineer, so if he is operating a car that suddenly breaks down, it is not his responsibility to repair the car. That is why ALL Qualifited Operators are required to carry functioning two-way radios. If a car has a malfunction, the Operator is to report the problem to Dispatch and await either: (1) assistance from a qualified mechanic, or (2) a rescue trolley to transport his passengers back to the main building when in fact the mechanical problem cannot be corrected w/o the cars' removal to the shop barn.
To answer 'example #2': people are only human, and yes we all forget to do something on occassion. What you cite here was indeed a mistake, where the operator turned the motor generator off while leaving the lights on to run off the battery power only. If indeed he wanted to leave the lights on strictly for display purposes, the correct approach would have been to have left the trolley pole in contact with the overhead -- even with the MG off -- so that the lights would not have to have been run off the battery units.
Hope that answers some of your questions.
BMTman
Does anybody have any documentation of reports by TA employees of unusual activities occuring anywhere in the NYC Transit system during the early morning hours of November 30, 1989? Particularly on trains crossing the Manhattan Bridge and buses operating in the Lower East Side between the hours of 3:00-4:00 AM?
This is when the infamous alien abduction of Linda Napolitano from her Lower East Side apartment supposedly took place. Eyewitnesses who claimed they were driving on the FDR Drive and Brooklyn Bridge claim to have seen this event.
While I am a fan of supernatural phenomena and UFO's, I'm personally very skeptical that this event took place. I find it hard to beleive that such an event could take place where it did, regardless of time of day, without infinantly more documentation.
Thanks for any information.
The geomerty train has been a complete sucess and 79mph is a go. Now the 7 crews are entering intensive training and land is being leased for the stations.
Will there be a train station in dover NH?
Very cool - I'm a native of Portsmouth NH (now Brooklyn); would be great to take the train right to my backyard, practically...
"The geomerty train has been a complete sucess and 79mph is a go."
WOOOWWWW! Is 79 mph's really adequate for cross-country transportation today? I guess I was expecting more like 179 mph's instead of a mere 79 mph's. Anyway, at least someone is going somewhere. heeheheeehee.
N Bwy Line
Take one look at the Maine Turnpike and its' associated Widening Project which won't be finished until 2004. Like the widening itself, this rail line is LONG overdue. Southern Maine is overrun with millions of tourists in the summer. 79 MPH sounds pretty darn fast when you're stuck in backed up traffic at the toll booth in York. Besides, two of the proposed stops are Wells and Old Orchard Beach. I've lived in both towns in my past. The Wells stop will be off of the Turnpike (Exit 2). The O.O.B. stop will be downtown near the world-famous pier and the 7-mile stretch of unbroken beaches. Now if somebody can estimate what the fare will be? :>
79mph Is the speed limted for any train passenger or freight set by FRA due to Signal visblity for faster speeds signals must be displayed In engine cab. On some streches Of the BNSF main line in Northern Arizona & California (Flagstaff Az to Barstow Ca) some freight and Amtrak Trains are Leagally clocked at 90mph (Line Is Dual Tracked, Engines are equipted with In Cab signals, and signals are placed at block intalvals along the route.) Im not familer with the speeds set in the NE Corridor Bewtween Dc and Boston and from Phili to Harrisburg.
79mph Is the speed limted for any train passenger or freight set by FRA due to Signal visblity for faster speeds signals must be displayed In engine cab.
The requirement is for Automatic Train Stop, not cab signals. This could be something as simple as a trip arm.
If I want to go railfanning on the PATH train, is it possible to get off at Journal Square and get on a train going the other way without having to pay another fare?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes. Only at Newark and at Harrison (and I think some of the Manhattan stations) must one pay another fare to turn around.
The Manhattan stations in question, I.I.N.M., are 14th and 23rd Streets.
Except that Newark bound at Harrison has no fare control.
The same goes for Newark itself. That's why you need to pay another fare to turn around. (If you pay $1.50 to go from Newark to Harrison, then, no, you don't need to pay another fare to turn around and go back to Newark. But why would anyone want to do that?)
Well, some people work in Harrison, so they in effect have a 75 cent fare each way for that 1 mile trip. It's kind of like the free fare in Boston on the west-bound green line above ground.
How do they work it during service diversions? Currently T-W-Th during mid-afternoon, all service is from the eastbound platform. I guess Harrisson->Newark riders have to pay the fare in that instance.
Does that mean that Newark-bound trains at Newark stop inside fare control, too?
During normal service, the PATH arrives at Newark Penn Station on track H, which is one level above all of the other tracks in the station. Since no one is allowed to board the train on track H, there is no fare control in operation normally.
After all pax leave the train, it pulls forward across a switch onto a lay up track, where the T/O changes ends. The switch is then thrown to its other position, and the train pulls onto the single track -- on the main track level -- that has fare controls. The paid zones are on half of platform B (the other half of which serves track 1) and half of platform C (the other half of which serves track 2). Thus, pax leaving a westbound NJT or Amtrak train on track 1, have a cross-platform transfer to PATH available (requiring payment of the PATH fare). Pax leaving a train on track 2 have the same arrangement during the peak hours when the part-time PATH gates on platform C are open.
In theory, when the west bound track is OOS and PATH turns its trains on the main level, it could discharge onto platform C, close up, then open on platform B for boarding pax. Had I realized that this question was going to be asked, I would have paid closer attention the last time I saw the train turned in the station. For all I know PATH doesn't bother and simply absorbs the few dollars lost to freeloading railfans.
PATH has also been consistently cooperative with Amtrak and NJT in that whenever there is a problem cancelling or severely degrading rail service to Penn, PATH agents open the gates and let train riders board free to finish the trip to New York. I have benefitted this way on more than one occasion.
Does PATH bill Amtrak/NJT for this??
When the westbound is OOS, they simply run the trains on the eastbound and charge everybody.
When the eastbound track is OOS, they activate the fare controls at Platform H and yes, there is a fare control area at Harrison Westbound, which is activated in these instances.
That must be fun, cramming all those people through the two or three turnstiles on platform H.
You have to go up to the concourse level to reverse direction. Watch out for the pigeons!! They have a maintenance worker stationed there rush hours who largely deals with the wretched refuse of these winged rats.
The MBTA (Boston) Board has approved a contractor's proposal to install antennae within the confines of the subway system so that passengers in trains underground will be able to use their wireless (cellular/digitial) phones. As part of the compromise agreement, the MBTA will designate certain cars as "quiet." (Yeah, go enforce that!)
The contractor will make a sizable yearly payment to the MBTA, so this is a revenue-generating program for them. The contractor will in turn lease capacity to the various wireless services to make back their investment and generate their own profit.
Installation will begin in the next few months, and completion will be in under two years.
Now that is Yankee ingenuity at its best.
If you take the Queensbound 'J' train leaving East New York and look out the right side of the train (Opposite the yard, looking towards Canarsie). You will see some iron work from which used to be the Fulton St EL (I Think). There is a single track below the 'J' that just dead-ends at some Transit Related office. I notice that the signal is still active, but yet I have NEVER seen anything on those tracks for as long as I can remember. The track itself must hold maybe one or two cars the most. Anyway my Question is why is the signal still active? Most likely the Third Rail would Still be active too. Why dont they just cut the power to it and somehow disconnect the signal? Does it have to do something with the track coming down from the Canarsie line into the Yard?
I would think the reason for not cutting it has to do with the fact that occasional yard moves take place on Y2. A train can come out of the yard and relay into that track, then move elsewhere. But with the tearing down of the K Tracks, isn't that supposed to disappear anyway?
Y2 formerly served as the Yard Lead for the Fulton El.
-Stef
I have also wondered why this track remains. It was even replaced when this entire complex had it's tracks replaced in the early 1990's.
is there a source for information on that whole complex? i.e. the designation for each track, what they were used for when the fulton el was operational, etc.?
thanks
...to set up his BBQ grill at Grand Central. Tunnel Vision
Peace,
ANDEE
If he sets up his grill will the featured item be "Frog Legs Diamond" ?
LOL
Hey!! I resemble that remark!
;-D
BMTman
nyuk, nyuk, nyuk
Actually, I thought it was an opportunity for American Pig. They said they wanted clowns…
I really enjoy any place that's named for talking about hogs (or hamburgers if you're from Albany).
At one time, the area was crisscrossed by els, so people could go and chat about hams from far and wide.
When I read the article about the destruction of the Second Avenue El, it showed a one level configuration that allowed Second Avenue service to go only from South Ferry. When was the structure modified and the second level added?
I believe there were several rebuildings at Chatham Square, including an interim one which produced a flyover track so 3rd Ave. el trains could use the South Ferry Line without crossing the 2nd Avenue el tracks. But don't quote me on that.
But the big reconstruction which left the system in its final state was part of the 3rd tracking of the 2nd-3rd-9th that was completed in 1916.
The IRT boasted that the work (including the famous "hump" express stations) was done with no service interruption longer than 20 minutes. That 20 minutes was to put a girder in place at Chatham Square. How times have changed.
There is one thing that is different:
If the IRT disrupted service, they would lose money and that would not be good. Today of course government agencies run transit like a social service.
Very wise!! No wonder they renamed Chatham Square Confucius Plaza!!
Confucius Plaza is the name of the apartment building in the triangle between Bowery, Division Street and the Manhattan Bridge. It is completely north of the square.
But Chatham Square is double named with Kimlau Square.
Much like the posts on Bridges ['they don't built 'em like they used to, and without computers yet] the thoughts on 3rd tracking the Manhattan els, the longevity of the original equipment,old buildings , etc etc etc... It's simple proof that people knew what they were doing back then and did it without high tech assistance.
But i guess we could consider that some structures built by the Romans still stand....
Much like the posts on Bridges ['they don't built 'em like they used to, and without computers yet] the thoughts on 3rd tracking the Manhattan els, the longevity of the original equipment,old buildings , etc etc etc... It's simple proof that people knew what they were doing back then and did it without high tech assistance.
The mistakes that were made disappeared a long time ago and have been forgotten.
22 Emmy nominations and not one subway scene! If the writers are on Subtalk, tune in dudes.
I WANT SUBWAY SCENES!!!
As soon as the 7 is extended to New Jersey I'm sure there will be subway shots >G<.
The oft-visited cemetary is by the portal where the PATH trains emerge to and from darkness between Grove Street and Journal Square. Listen carefully and you can hear the screech.
do you like them
yep
You betcha!!
thier okay
It's my favorite car class!
So....yes.
:-) Andrew
its not my favorite cass but its all right
I don't dislike them, but nothing about them stands out in such a way that would make me like them more than another "average" car class.
true
That's because they're essentially redbirds with some improvements (Stainless steel bodies, better signs, etc.)
I must really like them.........after all, they like me !
Bill "Newkirk"
They're OK. If they had the final field shunt step restored, they'd be devastating. Nothing could touch them. Come to think of it, they're pretty swift even in their neutered state.
Big fan of the R-62. Especially when they were new and less timers were on Lex. Ave.
Wayne
true
A very sad story. Condolences to the family.
Peace,
ANDEE
Everytime I'd run my train past those guys working on the tracks, I'd say a prayer for them. I've been on the roadbed a few times, and man, it's not an easy place to be, let alone work. I'm sorry for his family's loss.
Don't you have to touch the 3rd rail and one of th eother two rails simultaneously to get a jolt?
You need to be touching the third rail and another grounded object which doesn't necessesarily have to be any of the running rails, however, as the running rails do provide a dedicated return path for the traction current supplied to the trains from the third rail, the would definately make a strong enough ground connection.
Given the close location of both running rails to the third rail, I can imagine that it would be very easy to fall on the third rail and the running rail located nearest it if one had tripped on something, as the report suggest may be the cause of the worker's fall.
It's quite a shame to hear of this happening and I really feel sorry for the track worker and his family; electrocution is one of the worst ways to go.
-Robert King
-Robert King
I remember walking the rails a while ago before they start running trains through the new 63rd route. The feeling of putting my feet over the 3rd rail was the most frightening experience I would never forget!!! But what also bothered me was those switches. I could have easily lost my whole leg in one of those switches or EVEN MY DAMN!!! LIFFE!!! Besides that, I had to worry about the parked N train which was behind me, that could have gone into service at any moment. And I can't forget about risking being caught by a subway employee, which could've resulted in BIG jail time for trespassing. Anyway, Thank god I didn't make the wrong move, otherwise, I would have ended up like that guy. The subways are real dangerous places that should be left to trains, not people. Unfortunately, these subways wouldn't be possible if these hard working transit workers didn't keep them fix to proper standard. No! amount! of! money! is! worth! what! these! guys! do! so we must commend them even when our train is delay.
God bless....
N Bwy Line
And, hopefully, you won't pull a stunt like that again, for your own sake!
"You need to be touching the third rail and another grounded object which doesn't necessesarily have to be any of the running rails, however, as the running rails do provide a dedicated return path for the traction current supplied to the trains from the third rail, the would definately make a strong enough ground connection. "
Believe it or not, sometimes, while walking on wet ballast you may feel your feet tingling or the hairs on your legs stand up. That's with a ANSI approved workshoe, too.
Ok, ok, a question I always wondered about on third rail is, how much leakage is there to the ground, and how much load does it put on the system. Also, does keeping the insulators clean help any? Have there ever been instances of third rail to ground arcing due to high dirt levels? Can such arcing even be detected by substation equipment?
Is leakage a problem with catenary setups too?
On the old TVs I collect, some of them have nasty HV leakage no matter what. You'd be amazed at the dumb things manufacturers did on those sets*, and also the lengths they went to to keep HV leakage at bay. I've seen sets with the HV tubes mounted in special molded sockets, sets where the HV rectifier is mounted up off the chassis, and sets where the HV stuff is all brought out through a circuit board! You can tell that leakage too. Nice hissing noise and maybe a blue arc. And the ozone smell. My Dumont is the current worst in this department - the HV box has had severe arcing even with repeated cleanings and smoothing outs.
I guess 600V is easier to contain, but at 10,000 volts, the electricity is litterally looking for places to get out. It's creepy.
*My favorite is use tube pins marked "do not use" as tie points on the socket for various puposes. My least favorite is audio amps with 6L6s that use pin 1 as a high voltage tie point. I'll let the tube nuts here guess why (hint: look at an RCA recieving tube manual =)
I don't know quantitatively how much leakage there is. I do know that when an insulator lets go, the tower of sparks can be 100 feet high and the ground will glow for hours. While we don't clean the insulators, excessive dust will provide a path to ground, especially when wet.
Don't get me started with old TVs. I used to pack the 3A3 sockets with black RTV to insulate them.
I'm sorry for the worker, but 600 volts is nothing to fool around with.
We had a funny leakage story from BSM a couple of years ago. We had a snow/sleet storm the preceeding night, and Sunday dawned clear and cold, with several inches of white frozen stuff on the ground and temps in the middle 20's. We opened the line and noted nothing out of place or order. Several hours later, a call was received from the operator of a northbound car, reporting of "steaming ground" around a pole just north of 27th Street. I reported to the site to discover that a steel line pole was indeed surrounded by bare ground, from which steam was rising. I immediately killed the 600, and had the line crew respond. They discovered that ice had collected around the strain insulator between the hanger and the pole. As the sun's heat began to melt the ice, water provided about a 200 volt leak to ground and the heat melted the snow/ice cover for about 3 foot circle around the pole.
The line crew broke the ice on the strain insulator, and the line was reopened.
And, NOBODY got a picture. It's never happened again.
The news about that poor worker is terrible, but others have been electrocuted by coming in contact with the third rail. When I was a medical student back in 1974, we had a class in forensic pathology at the NY city Medical Examiner's office at First Ave. and 30th Street in Manhattan. We had to view autopsies being performed. Now this work is important, since many cases of homicide were discovered by this means, and it is necessary when perpetrators try to make their crimes look like an accident. On the second floor of the bulding was a museum of sorts, in which they had specimens from very unusual cases of death which happened in the city. One display was very eyecathing - the individual was a drunk who needed to urinate and was on the subway platform, so he proceeded to do so - right onto the third rail. Death was instantaneous, and a part of his anatomy is preserved in formaldehyde at the medical examiner's office. It is still there, folks.
RTV...
RTV Rapid Terrain Visualization
RTV Real-Time Video
RTV Recoverable Test Vehicle
RTV Return To Vendor
RTV Room-Temperature Vulcanizing
no that's not it
okay, enlighten us mechanically declined folks.
RTV is a kind of silicone rubber that comes in a tube like caulking but hardens like rubber and has a high dielectric value.
As you said, Steve - an excellent capsule description of Room Temperature Vulcanizing rubber. Its high dielectric value is a welcome byproduct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All kidding aside, I never would have guessed that even after using it for 30 years.
I was in fire school training last year with a power distribution maintainer who told me the leakdown to the protection boards brackets and surrounding boards have been measured over half of the third rail voltage. Thats a good reason NOT to step on the third rail protection boards. While working on work trains, I have seen the tower of sparks jump to the cast iron ringed Steinway Tubes. The resulting bang outdoes any Grucci display I have seen up close and personal.
While relaying at 205th, I've seen jacob ladders leap from the rear shoes, along the track to the end of the segments with a report that can only be described as a cannon going off when the arc broke at the end of the segment ... that earned some instant respect for going down on the ground right there. Summertime of course.
Yikes! That won't actually kill a person though, unsettling and annoying as it may be. I have noticed that on rainy days in outdoor cuts no animals will walk around the subway tracks and will stay instead on the embankments on either side of the line whereas on nice days you will quite often see cats, raccoons, and squirrels crossing from one side to the other of subway lines in open cuts (I've noticed the open cuts on the subway are a good hunting territory for cats to find freshly dead birds) and I was guessing that these animals were staying away from the subway tracks on rainy days because some third rail leakage made the area uncomfortable for them.
I think that this hypothesis is probably true, given what you've written, and the fact that the animals wandering around on the subway tracks would be feeling the full effect of the leakage as they don't wear ANSI approved workboots and enjoy their benefits which track crews do.
-Robert King
I understand what you are talking about, I am currently in LIRR A/C training program and we were out in the Hillside Yards in wet weather training on safety techniques on crossing over the third rail and boarding trains from the ground and with the apporvoved safety shoes you could feel the juice on the ballast. I tell you one thing I will walk around the third rail at every opportunity even if if means walking a couple of hundred feet, 750 volts is no joke.
That's interesting. I've seen SEPTA cleaning guys bouncing up and down on the 3rd rail cover and most PATCO track workers treat it like it's not there. I have also seen a rabit go under a 3rd rail w/ zappage effects.
It would be nice if workers didn't treat the third rail cover like a trampoline. How can you know it won't give way?
That just might be the last thing that they find out, then all of a sudden they are in front of a real old guy in a very bright place and he has this big book...
...explaining that Hilary will be right back? :0)
It would be nice if workers didn't treat the third rail cover like a trampoline. How can you know it won't give way?
That just might be the last thing that they find out, then all of a sudden they are in front of a real old guy in a very bright place and he has this big book.
In the scenario you describe, the "real old guy" to whom you refer would be a certain bearded gentleman of stern Victorian countenance by the name of Charles "Uncle Chuck" Darwin.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Some would call him St. Peter, others would give the individual another name, but the message is clear - you would not be going home anymore once you met him.
It was wooden, not one of those cheso plastic ones.
It can still break though. Wasn't there a post a few days ago about a 142 whose shoegear managed to get on top of and ride along the coverboards above a stretch of third rail because some of the coverboards were broken?
-Robert King
Actually I would have thought that the resin covers would be better in this application:
You make the plastic non-conductive
It doesn’t rot.
It doesn’t absorb water, so that it maintains as much insulating value as possible in wet weather.
John
"I have noticed that on rainy days in outdoor cuts no animals will walk around the subway tracks and will stay instead on the embankments "
And now you know why!
That poor guy lost his life while trying to earn a living. There are risks in all kinds of jobs, and you never know when the time comes for you to see just what can happen at yours. I hope his family can get through this.
http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/zap718.htm
this one plays up the human interest angle, talking about his family and avocations.
http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/zap718.htm
this one plays up the human interest angle, talking about his family and avocations.
Somehow, the use of the word "zap" in the URL doesn't seem quite appropriate, given the circumstances ...
Hello, there. With the Bridge Changes just a few days away,does anyone have the first/last times of theB, D, Q,Q,W services, at,let us say, Stillwell Terminal on the 21st/22nd? (23rd for the W).
As far as I know, circle 7 is supposed to mean local, and diamond 7 is supposed to mean express. Apparently, nobody really knows what their train is doing until Queensboro Plz when the conductor mentions the next stop. The conductor I had just said between Times Sq and Grand Central, "Queens bound 7" and then the next stop. And Vernon-Jackson to 45th road, "Flushing bound 7" and next stop. People were holding the doors at 5th Ave and Grand Central asking other passengers if it was local or express. Held up the train. With two minute headways like the ones on the 7, it isn't hard to hold up the entire line. Anyway, signs were all messed up. Half the cars said Flushing Local, another half said Flushing exp, 1 or 2 used the arrows and said stuff like <<<<<>>>>>>. Same on most trains that went by the other way. The fact that the Mets were playing at Shea didn't help. So the sign in front said diamond 7 and Flushing exp at Times Sq so I get on. Conductor doesn't say anything except the next borough and stop. At Queensboro, she finally says local so I hop off. Next train says circle 7, flushing local. Wouldn't you know it would run express?
Trains that start out as expresses sometimes become locals. Trains that start out as locals sometimes become expresses. Changing all the signs at the terminal would delay service.
Just get on the first train that comes and listen for announcements at Queensboro Plaza. If it's not the one you want, get off and wait for the next one.
I was at 61st the other day, and saw a Manhattan-bound express switch to the local track north of the station. After making all local stops to 45th Road, the train's next stop was Grand Central. It was weird not stopping at the two underground Long Island City stations.
Very strange. Perhaps there was a gap in local service, so the train switched to the local track to pick up the stranded passengers but then skipped two other stops to get back on schedule. Not a bad idea, really.
That C/R should have been making local/express annoucemnts from the time he/she left TS. This would have avoid all the confusion at QBP.
Apparently the circle and diamond 7's do confuse people. This is why they should give the 7 Express a different number. I think that once the 7 gets R62As, they should use the other purple circle on the rollsigns and designate the 7 express as the 11. Then there would be less confusion because 7 trains would be local and 11 trains would be express. A lot of times, people don't make the distinction between circles and diamonds and conductors don't say "7-Circle" or "7-Diamond" and that's why the two services should have two different numbers. People will make the distinction between two different numbers because it's more obvious.
I agree with your plan: Run the (11) in place of the < 7 >express. The only problem that I have with this system is the same one with the J/Z or 1/9. When trains run antipeak, they are forced to change their rollsigns back (the 1/9 do not, thanks to the south ferry circular turnaround, but the Z train runs manhattan bound in the AM, bklyn-bound in the PM). Running the 7 express means that when you're going antipeak, you're still a 7 train, just like all the other local trains.
Actually some Motorman forget to change the signs. I have seen Z trains making all stops in the afternoons towards manhattan around 4pm he was stopping at 111th which is a J only station, and his sign said Z
That was most likely a put in.
soundsthat way
"Running the 7 express means that when you're going antipeak, you're still a 7 train, just like all the other local trains."
Why don't you just say the 11 runs express in peak direction only and on anti-peak, both 7 and 11 just run local.
Besides if people see "<7> Express" on the front and sides of their train they may assume it's going to run express, even if the train is going in the anti-peak direction.
That is true, the 11 train would have to either make all stops when it runs anti-peak or switch the signs to 7. But a similar situation is going to happen over on the Astoria line, where N trains will run local and W trains will run express in peak direction, but in anti-peak both N and W trains will make all stops. I guess that also would happen on the Flushing line if the diamond-7 becomes the 11.
>>But a similar situation is going to happen over on the Astoria line, where N trains will run local and W trains will run express in peak direction, but in anti-peak both N and W trains will make all stops. I guess that also would happen on the Flushing line if the diamond-7 becomes the 11.<<
You're right, this situation is similar, but not the same: after 49th the N/W split trackage. The 7 and 11 would share routes all the way...
(the 2/5 and B/D are different even more so, because they have different terminals at both ends of the exp run.)
Still, using the 11 roll would be very effective, and a great improvement (They do have 7 diamonds on R-62A's, right?)
I saw "<7> Express" on a middle car on a 3 train. I don't know if they all have them, because some R62As were delivered during the big Flushing line reconstruction when the 7 express was suspended for quite some time. But 11 is better, you'll also be able to spot it from a distance because the R62A has the big roll signs next to the storm door. They should have put R62s or R62As on the 7 a long time ago when all of them were single cars.
that a good point
yeah
It is not necessary to change the sign. Everyone understands that express runs peak direction only on Flushing Line.
On local station signs they have to say (am - pm hours) when #11 train stop there.
When are you going to realize that MOST PEOPLE DON'T READ SIGNS!!!!
If you want an example get on a #1 train this weekend at Times Square (if the 42-72 G.O. is in effect) and watch all the confused people at 103 st. who ran on a silver train on the express track and ASSUMED it was a 3. They don't read signs or listen to announcements. Remember when they were testing the 142's, they had them signed as a 6 and ran them on the west side express tracks and people were angry when it stopped in a station and did not open it's doors. I could sign a R62a out of V.C. as a #13 train with the destinations being Main St. and Dyre Ave. and 96% of the people would not notice or care.
That's right, the only time people may pay attention to the sign closer is on lines like the A which split into 3 sections on the rush, the R maybe for short turns at Whitehall, the 6 for 6 lcl or 6 exp, and the 5 for the 238/Dyre split.
Not the R. Board the first R that comes and take it as far as it goes. If you're kicked off at Whitehall, get off and wait for the next train. (Why pass up a train to Brooklyn that may have been missigned or rerouted? And if you're going from Queens to downtown Brooklyn, now you can use the N, too.)
There's also no reason to insist on a 5 to 238. Take the first 5 to E180; if it's continuing to Dyre, get off and wait for the next train. Now you can take a 2, also.
Speaking of the 5, I just want to get straight how they work at peak:
5 (circle): Dyre to Bowling Green, local from E180 to 149GC in all directions
<5>: 238 to Flatbush, express from E180 to 149GC in peak direction.
Is this correct, or do all trains go to Flatbush?
No, I don't believe that's correct.
All rush hour 5's (barring an occasional short-turn) go to Flatbush. And all rush hour 5's run express (peak direction) in the Bronx. Some run to 238th and some run to Dyre.
There are no distinct diamond and circle routes, as on the (future) Q. The map uses diamonds to show rush hour services (for the most part). As for the signs, I haven't figured out why some rush hour 5's show diamonds and others show circles.
(Off-peak, all 5's between Bowling Green and Dyre, local in the Bronx. But you knew that.)
"all rush hour 5's run express (peak direction) in the Bronx. Some run to 238th and some run to Dyre."
I'm not totally sure, but I remember some change that occurred within the last 1-2 years where instead of all 5s running exp in peak and 2s running local, the 2s and 5s going to 238/241 would run exp in peak, and the 5s to Dyre would run local. There was definitely an argument about it, but I have no subway map and never needed one for years so I don't know what it says.
That plan was nixed. It never went into action.
Yes.....there were plans for that last summer, but the folks along the Dyre line weren't too happy about it and got the local politicians involved. That was not a good time for the TA to try and make that move either....Dyre Line riders were already frustrated by summer-long half hourly shuttle service and so the news that they would then also lose the rush hour express service on top of that did not go over too well.
1. During AM rush hours, 5 trains operates from 238St. During PM rush hours, 5 trains operate to 238St. (These trains are express.)
2. There are 5 trains during the PM rush that run lite to
Bowling Green, go around the loop and go back uptown in service.
Not all Rush Hour No.5 trains go to Flatbush Ave during Rush Hours.
During the AM Rush Hour there are about 3 trains that only go to Bowling Green as well as the PM Rush but during PM's they run light downtown. Also during the AM Rush Hours there are about 8 trains that go to Utica Ave. During PM's there are about 4 trains that go to New Lots Ave.
The way I understand it, here's how it works:
< 5 > From 238th st to Flatbush, via express
< 5 > From Dyre Av. to Flatbush, via express
( 2 ) From 241st st to Flatbush, via local.
I didn't know that this had changed. If it has could someone tell me the present service pattern (note to Isaac, no 'regular' 5 service is stopped at bowling green rush hours.)
see the 1st response to post #239989
Exactly. Then these customers tke their frustration on you......
>>> Apparently the circle and diamond 7's do confuse people. <<<
I think you missed the thrust of some of the preceding posts. Sometimes a train is directed to change from express to local and vice versa after it leaves its terminal. Changing a 7 to an 11 is not going to help that. Since the express only runs in one direction, the diamonds and circles are probably a better way to differentiate the two services along with clear announcements at Main Street and Queensboro Plaza. (Or maybe we should go back to the red and green lights on the front of the train. :-))
Tom
>>Changing a 7 to an 11 is not going to help that.<<
True, it might not help that problem. But it will help the problem of mis-marked trains leaving the terminal.
No it won't. A train will leave the terminal marked with the wrong number (7 vs. 11) just as trains now leave the terminal marked with the wrong shape (circle vs. diamond).
A local arrives at the terminal and the crew is informed that its next run is express. Do you really think the crew should take the time to crank the signs in all eleven cars? With all that time wasted, it would have been faster to just go local. If you insist on correct signs in all cars, perhaps the knobs should be restored and the passengers should be asked to help out.
Yeah, how come they weren't using those, they are on most other redbird routes.
All the TA has to do is to maintain equipment that has been in place for 40 years. The Flushing line is equipped with Identra. There are signs on the platforms of Fifth Ave, Grand Central, Vernon-Jackson, 45th Rd and Queensboro Plaza that display Exp or Loc depending on the Identra loop setting first car of the train. This setting can be changed form the motorman's cab.
Well hopefully when the R62's come to the 7 this problem will be solved.
Is there the word "local" and "express" put below the #7's logo on the R62s as it is on the #6. Also, does that word get placed on the front only or everywhere on the train?
I've seen the <6> express on both the end and side signs. The only one that has (6) local is #1820.
On the 7 heading outward yesterday evening, the exp overran Junction Blvd by about a car length. I was in the front, the doors didn't open. No announcements or anything. We waited for about the time a train usually stays at a station and then just took off, I wonder if the back doors were open, but the front was left closed? I've had experiences at Newkirk {it always seems to happen there} on the southbound Brighton were the driver misses by a door so he just gets out and checks that nobody exits by that door. So what's the drill? I assume you never back up, even at night. What do you do?
Unofficially I think:
Pass one long buzzer back to the C/R so he does not open up. Lock out the doors/car that did not platform and then tell the C/R to open up and assist customers to the next door/car that platformed.
Officially I think you have to report it to Command, do the above and then they will tell you discharge the train. Wait for TSS and your union; pray to your deity of choice.
but what is the usual outcome for a T/O, when overrunning a station platform? Does he/she get fired, suspended, written up?...what are the procedures of punishment if any?
Most likely, a T/O goes downtown for drug testing, and depending on his/her prior record an average suspension of 10 days.
The MTA is very serious about this. Running the platform or a red signal to the MTA is like getting in to an accident. You'll more then likely go to the terminal and then get discharged, cause they dont want to cause any delays for the passengers on the train.
After overrunning a station the first thing the T/O does is pray his C/R's radio battery is dead.(2nd) hits his circuit breaker for that car so the doors wont open (3rd)Hides his Flask and light a Ciggerrete Whiskey breathe is not good in these situations.(4th)Open the Cab door to make sure there is not a TSS standing there, And Let the girl who was sitting on his lap out of the cab.(5th)Blame everything on the train itself By saying theses brakes suck When are they going to fix the brakes.Finally When his gets backs back to the crew room, What station overrun not me ask my conductor we stopped evrywhere perfectly ,must of been my follower.
Boy, I hope we dont work together if you are a T/O.........
Hahahahaha ... you forgot kneeling in the prostrate position in front of the fan window with your hands behind your back waiting to be cuffed. :)
I'm not a T/O, but I was on a E train that overshot 23/Ely. I heard the conductor on the radio say that he'll open the rear section only. He closed the doors, and off we went. I didn't hear the conductor chewing out the motorman, even though he deserved it.
i remember when i was on the 7 flushing line and a New Female T/O overan junction blvd. The Experienced T/O just stood by the door telling people to use another door. She only overran by one door. she told the other T/O to start pullin the brake handle a little earlier
Not all of that is true for every T/O.
I'm a non-smoker.
>>> (3rd)Hides his Flask and light a Ciggerrete Whiskey breathe is not good in these situations. <<<
You forgot the step where you take the plastic bag of "clean" urine from your bag and tape it to the inside of your thigh to heat it up to body temperature and have it ready when needed. :-)
Tom
The TA's procedure for when a train overruns a station:
1. If a Train Operator senses that they will overrun a station platform, they must alert the Conductor with one long buzzer signal not to open the doors.
2. Once the train stops, the T/O must communicate verbally with the C/R letting them know of the overrun.
3. The C/R pulls the emergency brake valve (EBV).
4. The T/O puts the train into emergency with the brake handle.
5. The T/O and the C/R notify the Control Center of the overrun and the reason for it.
6. The C/R opens the doors of the section that are still in the station, making an announcement over the PA for those passengers in the closed section to walk towards the back of the train to the open section.
7. The T/O walks back through the train towards the C/R position keying open crew doors that are next to the platform.
8. The C/R secures their position and assists in opening crew doors that are next to the platform.
9. After passengers have gotten on and off the train, the T/O and C/R close all crew doors and lock all end doors that were locked before.
10. Once they've returned to their position, the C/R will reset the EBV.
11. The T/O will recharge the train.
12. The C/R lets the Control Center know that the train is preparing to leave.
13. The C/R closes the section of the train that was open. When they have indication that all doors are closed and locked, they will pass indication and two long buzzer signals to the T/O.
14. Once the T/O has indication and has receieved the proceed signal from the C/R, they will notify the Control Center.
15. The T/O takes a rolling sensitive test and then proceeds.
Of course, we know that it is not always done that way because of the fear of retribution from the TA. There are lots of things that can contribute to a staion overrun such as long brakes on a train, or inclement weather. This is not an excuse, though, for recklessness. The safety of thousands of people rests with the crew of that train. Therefore, it is imperative that T/Os maintain control of their trains and C/Rs make sure that they are at the proper indication board for their train class whenever they are in revenue service.
Isn't it easier just to bypass the station and report it to the tower?
>>>>>>5. The.......C/R notifies the Control Center of the overrun and the reason for it.
Bang me in and I'll bang you harder than a double 6 domino!!!
LOL @ zman!
I'd never do that to you, my friend. But harder than a double six domino? That remains to be seen, buddy! LOL
what does the term " long brakes on a train " mean?
"Long brakes" simply means the train has a bad braking problem. It refers to the time the T/O starts to pull on the brake handle until the time the train starts to decelerate.
In my opinion, if a train takes more than two seconds to start to slow down once a T/O has applied an air brake, that train has "long brakes."
Also, long brakes can mean simply "weak brakes". On trains with long brakes, when you apply 50 pounds of brake, it could feel like 30 or even 25 pounds. It's these type of trains that cause a lot of the station overruns. The only thing that you could do is adjust your operation and begin the braking sequence earlier.
Of course if the brakes are so weak to the point where you can no longer control the train the way you want to, then that train goes out of service on the spot.
Most times crews will do it the old fashion way; long buzz, T/O drops the D8 or DC1 or 2 breaker, two buzzes, T/O tells people in the first car go to the next car to exit, C/R closes down, train moves on. No harm no foul. Plus it saves time and doesn't tie up the railroad.
The reason for the long procedure is that sometimes the circuit breakers don't do there jobs and people step without looking.
I have known that if the proper procedure is followed and the T/O does not have a "reputation" as being unsafe or careless MOST TSS's after interviewing him/her will report that the T/O is fit for duty and back up the T/O if disciplinary charges are brought. (he /she is following STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE)
If a station overrun does occur and the proper procedure is not followed and the crew is caught/reported both T/O and C/R are in deep doo doo. I have also seen action taken against the C/R for not following the procedure to the letter. (basically for banging in his/her partner and tying up the railroad.)
Thanks for your answers so far! Does anybody have a statistic as to how often this happens? {overrunning platform}
TA would only have stats on those reported to Command. I'm sure (and I have seen) they are unreported ones. Even if one door does not platform it is an overrun.
So is it okay to go past your # but no door gets overrun? Also, is there a problem if a train is supposed to stop at "8" but stops at "10" instead?
No, you just give the passengers waiting at the end of the platform a good workout. (But, please, C/R's, keep the doors open an extra few seconds when this happens. Not everyone can run as fast as the train.)
A lot of rules, but definitely worth it. I recall that the driver of the Moorgate disaster train overran at least one platform on the morning of the crash. Can anyone else confirm this. What is the procedure in London for overrunning?
ok..i am very interested in this test and want to know all the info...im buying the cheif today with all the dates and stuff...but what do i do to sign up and stuff. lol...thanks for anyone who helps me out
Danny
Go to the DCAS web site, go to Washington Street, Go to the Staten Island Ferry (a computer threre prints the applications for a fee) or READ THE CHIEF they all tell you how to file for Civil Service Exams.
Story about the blokes giving kiley the boot.
Peace,
ANDEE
If government (elected officials) wants to go in a particular direction, appointed officials who oppose their masters are likely to lose their jobs- regardless of how ably they perform otherwise.
(Wow, that was deep, wasn't it?)
Some jobs need to be above politics, for that they should have longer terms from which they cannot merely be fired, but need to go through a complicated (but possible and democratic) process of impeachment.
Perhaps. There is merit in that view.
On the other hand, look at Daryl Gates (ex LAPD chief). He deserved the boot a lot sooner than he got it, because he was so well protected in his job.
I'm not familiar with the Daryl Gates case, can you elaborate?
Daryl Gates was the police chief who, on the one hand, introduced SWAT to the LAPD, and, on the other, badly mishandled the street rioting after the trial verdict of "not guilty" was announced for four LA cops accused of beating Rodney King.
Also note - Gates was on the L.A. force for about 40 years. This is what I read, and in my view, the only thing he was doing was keeping a younger person from getting a job.
He was a long-time career cop, true. The only job he ever had.
"the only thing he was doing was keeping a younger person from getting a job."
No. He was also trying to avoid being held accountable for his actions.
Yes, that too. A friend of mine who retired from the US Postal system told me that after 40 years of service, the feds - and this is what he told me - do something to convince employees that the time to go has arrived. They continue to deduct your pension plan contributions from your pay, and your health nsurance premiums, but your pension does not increase the longer you stay on the job. When you finally do retire, you get back the excess money that was taken out of your pay for the pension plan - without any interest that it might have earned while sitting there, and get this - they hit you with a SERVICE CHARGE. So you get only the pension that you would have gotten if you got out after 40 years, and for working the excess time, you in effect, PAID THE GOVERNMENT IN ORDER TO KEEP ON WORKING.
That has got to be the most vile, sneaky, meanspirited thing to do to someone. This applies to federal employees, and what happens in the City civil service system is different. There was an example of a lady who worked for the City Corporation Counsel for 61 years - when she finally retired at age 85 or so, her pension was more than her annual salary. My friend told me that in his opinion, for twenty years she was working for nothing, and keeping a younger person from getting a job.
Part of the incentive to put in twenty and leave...
To understand Daryl Gates, you need to know a little history of the L.A.P.D. From 1920- 1940, Los Angeles was a wide open town. To quote the L.A.P.D.'s own history:
"Los Angeles attracted the worst elements produced by the times. Crooked politicians, racketeers, bootleggers, and judges enjoyed immunity to arrest. The City was all but totally in the hands of bosses who controlled elected officials, dictating police appointments and promotions while garnering huge sums from booze, gambling, and vice."
When James E. Davis became Chief in 1926, he formed a 50-man "gun squad" announcing that "the gun-toting element and the rum smugglers are going to learn that murder and gun-toting are most inimical to their best interest." He added that he would "hold court on gunmen in the Los Angeles streets; I want them brought in dead, not alive and will reprimand any officer who shows the least mercy to a criminal."
With his return to office in 1933, Chief James E. Davis deployed a "Red Squad" to "investigate and control radical activities, strikes, and riots." By today's standards, the Squad's tactics were intolerable, but its members had the blessing of government officials and the business community. In referring to individuals deemed subversive, one Police Commissioner voiced his views by declaring: "The more the police beat them up and wreck their headquarters, the better. Communists have no Constitutional rights and I won't listen to anyone who defends them."
Corruption throughout local government reached new depths during the term of Mayor Frank L. Shaw whose brother, Joe, wielded self-imposed authority over the Police and Fire Departments. Mayor Shaw was ousted from office in a 1938 recall.
Fletcher Bowron was elected as a reform mayor in 1938, and in reaction to all the previous corruption, strong civil service protection was given to the police chief to prevent political pressure on him. During the ‘40s the police department was cleaned up as the worst of the corrupt were fired or retired.
In 1950, William H. Parker was appointed police chief. He is treated by the department as a deity and is given credit for the department's reputation for being incorruptible. He was a good leader and also a great PR man. He supposedly was the one who got Jack Webb to do the "Dragnet" TV series. He was chief for sixteen years until he died in 1966. He presented the L.A.P.D. as the "Thin Blue Line," and was responsible for the image of L.A.P.D. cops as physically fit short haired polite honest cops with a military bearing who look like they came off an assembly line. What was not said was that although his department was incorruptible as far as graft was concerned, it was mostly white male, and racist. Parker sent recruiters to Southern military bases to recruit soldiers finishing their first hitch in the military. He instituted military discipline, and in minority neighborhoods acted like an occupying force. Bulletin boards in station houses had racist cartoons posted openly.
Although it was a Highway Patrolman's actions which sparked the 1965 Watts riots, the feeling of oppression in the South Central neighborhoods fanned the flames. The Mc Cone Commission determined that the riots weren't the act of thugs, but rather symptomatic of much deeper problems: the high jobless rate in the inner city, poor housing, bad schools, and police relations with the community. It was reported to the commission that some officers randomly and arbitrarily beat and tortured black men, even those who were not suspected of anything. Bending fingers back, twisting ears, tightening handcuffs into medieval torture devices, slamming the victim's head into the door while placing him in a vehicle' were some of their milder techniques.
After William Parker's death, Tom Reddin became police chief for two years from 1967-1969 when he retired to head a security (rent a cop) company. He was quite liberal and tried to bring about the changes recommended by the McCone Commission.
After Reddin, "Crazy" Ed Davis became chief from 1969 - 1978 when he retired and ran for the state senate where he has remained since then. He too did a lot to end the overt racism in the department and started hiring more minorities and women.
In 1978, Daryl Gates was appointed police chief. It was a popular appointment. He had joined the force in the early days of Chief Parker, and had been his driver. He was popular with the rank and file and the public. In 1972 he had organized the L.A.P.D. SWAT team. He was given a lot of credit for the smooth running of the 1984 Olympics. He continued the policies of minority hiring and improving community relations. The one problem was that he did not get along with the mayor, Tom Bradley.
Tom Bradley had been an L.A.P.D. officer who rose to Lieutenant before running for City Council in the early ‘60s. He had experienced the internal racism in the L.A.P.D., and thought the department needed new blood at the top if there was to be serious change. He was a Democrat, and Gates was a conservative Republican. The previous police chief had gone into politics, and Bradley saw Gates as a potential political rival. Because of the civil service independence built into the city charter back in the late ‘30s, the chief was not beholden to the mayor at all and had his own political power base.
In early 1991, the world got to see the Rodney King beating. This was a real black eye to the department, and was not good for Gates' future political ambitions. The mayor and his allies started sniping at him for not doing enough to stop police brutality. At the beginning of 1992, Gates announced that he would retire on July 1, 1992 with 40 years of service to the L.A.P.D. In April, 1992, the jury acquitted the officers charged in the Rodney King beating. This trial was not televised, and although those who followed it closely could understand how a jury could acquit, and the acquittal was popular with L.A.P.D. officers, the general public was not so understanding.
On the evening that verdict came in, Daryl Gates was scheduled to speak at a political fund raiser. He decided not to cancel that appearance, put the force on alert and left instructions for his subordinates to follow the department plan for civil unrest. When the smoke cleared four days later, it would be an understatement to say that the elected politicians were rather unhappy with the L.A.P.D. reaction to the disturbances, which was basically to stay inside their police stations and allow looters to run wild all over the city. Long Beach, the 2nd largest city in the county had only a minor disturbance which was immediately suppressed by its police force, and other cities in Los Angeles County did not have disturbances, nor did the roving bands of looters go into those cities where police in riot gear and carrying shotguns were very evident.
The perception was that perhaps the L.A.P.D. held back to show the city that it could not do without them. Rank and file policemen complained that they wanted to go out and take back the streets but were prevented from doing so by higher ranking officers who told them to stay off the streets and wait for further orders.
Gates really caught the flack for the poor L.A.P.D. performance and his absence. There were demands that he be fired. He announced that maybe he would delay his retirement to supervise additional training of the L.A.P.D. That really brought howls from the elected politicians since they had already hired Willie Williams from Philadelphia to replace him, and they now found out that no one could fire him and if Gates decided to stay on no one could stop him. It was like a Banana Republic coup. In the end, Gates avoided a crisis and retired when he said he would. L.A. changed its charter so that all future police chiefs serve a five year term which may be renewed for a second five year term, but after ten years he is out.
Tom
That was a very nice post. A lot of historical color thrown in, enjoyable reading. Thank you.
There is much merit in your evaluation of the riot response. Gates' miscalculation cost lives. And yes, other cities suppressed the rioters quickly. Some rioters actually made it to the border of Beverly Hills, but BHPD made it clear they would become "skeet" or lunchmeat for police dogs if they crossed the border.
"This trial was not televised, and although those who followed it closely could understand how a jury could acquit, and the acquittal was popular with L.A.P.D. officers, the general public was not so understanding."
Well, the trial was held in Simi Valley, where A LOT of police officers live. Nearly any jury empaneled wasvirtually guaranteed to contain members exceptionally sympathetic to police officers. This put an overwhelming burden on the prosecution; the consensus (an accurate one, I think) was that to convince this jury you'd have to show a cop tying King's hands behind it back and then executing him in front of the camera, Anything short of that - the jury was not going to be impartial.
It happens. The system isn't perfect - but justice was ultimately obtained through federal court.
>>> It happens. The system isn't perfect - but justice was ultimately obtained through federal court. <<<
That's not really true. Holding the Federal trial in Los Angeles was a travesty of justice. It should have been removed at least to San Diego. The federal jurors during deliberations must have had the thought in mind that after the last jury acquitted the officers there was four days of rioting and 50 deaths, what will happen to the city if we acquit again? That was definitely a big thumb on the scales of justice. To put a bit of transportation in this post, although two officers were acquitted, the rest were railroaded.
Although Simi Valley probably has a higher number of peace officers per capita living there than anywhere else in the state, it would be incorrect to assume the jury there was a counterpart to a Mississippi lynching jury of the ‘50s.
The following facts were presented to the Simi Valley jury.
1. The incident occurred after a high speed chase, giving the officers reason to believe the occupants of the car might be involved in criminal conduct.
2. Once the car was stopped, the passengers obeyed the officers' instructions and lay down on the pavement and were handcuffed. None of them were beaten or had any claim that they were mistreated by the officers.
3. When King got out of the car, he refused to lie down and the officers made the (correct) assumption from his buffed appearance and his dislike of authority that he was a recently released
ex convict. This led to speculation that because of the three strike law, if he was involved in criminal activity he might resist quite desperately being taken into custody.
4. When struck with a TASER, King shook it off without apparent effect. This led to the assumption that he might be on PCP which has the tendency to mask pain and provide super human strength. (In an earlier unrelated case a police officer was acquitted after shooting several times and killing a naked unarmed man on PCP who was advancing on him and had taken his baton and thrown it away.)
5. The officers were using the tactics taught by the L.A.P.D. for dealing with a combative subject, under the direction of a supervisor.
It should be noted that the L.A.P.D.'s range of responses had been narrowed by the disallowance of using a choke hold after several deaths resulted, and Chief Gates' foot in mouth statement that blacks died from the choke holds because their carotid arteries were "different from those of normal people."
The second guessing after the fact was that the police officers should have swarmed King and brought him down by sheer weight of numbers. At the time, because of the fear of AIDS, all officers tried to avoid close contact with unknown suspects which could result in cuts, bites, or abrasions which could come in contact with blood or saliva of the suspect.
Although when one looks at the infamous tape of the King beating it really looks bad, at the trial, the tape was played over and over again in slow motion with stops after each blow. The officers explained what part of the body was targeted and why each blow was struck. There were pauses between blows when the officers thought King was going to comply with instructions, and they started up again when he did not. An experienced L.A.P.D. training officer testified that the blows struck were in accordance with L.A.P.D. training and were appropriate for the situation. It became clear that the officers were not beating King from anger, but were following their training. If anything the case should have been an indictment of the L.A.P.D.'s training and tactics rather than the individual officers.
Given the standard for conviction of beyond a reasonable doubt, and the lack of malice by the officers and the expert testimony that their actions were in accordance with their training, it should come as no surprise that a conservative jury would acquit them.
If this trial had been given the TV coverage of the O.J. Simpson trial, perhaps more people would have accepted the verdict. To get the full story of the trial it was necessary to follow it in the newspapers, and follow the story to back pages rather than just read the headlines. Unfortunately many people did not follow the trial at all, and had seen the tape of the beating only over and over for more than a year, and therefore thought after the Latasha Harlins debacle, that the jury verdict was a whitewash of the incident.
In March of 1991, 13 days after the beating of Rodney King, 15-year-old Latasha Harlins was shot and killed after a dispute over a $1.79 bottle of orange juice. A security camera recorded the altercation between the child and the owner, as well as the blast to the back of her head that killed her.
The merchant, Soon Ja Du, a 49-year old Korean woman who, with her husband, owned the Empire Liquor Market Deli in South Central LA was charged with murder. She was later found guilty of voluntary manslaughter, but the Judge, Joyce Karlin, granted the defendant probation. At the sentencing, Karlin's demeanor was described as "dogmatic, even arrogant," as she lectured blacks. She reportedly admonished the dead girl's grandmother, saying none of this would have happened had her granddaughter not gone into the store. The store closed immediately after the shooting and never reopened. Not surprisingly it burned during the 1992 riots.
The 1992 riots, with the slogan "No justice, no peace," were a reaction to both cases. It was not a coincidence that Korean owned liquor stores and other businesses, even in Koreatown were particular targets of the riots and were looted and burned.
Tom
Tom,
You did what the LAPD did, there, buddy. You explained the trees and missed the forest!
Holding the Federal trial in Los Angeles was a travesty of justice. It should have been removed at least to San Diego. The federal jurors during deliberations must have had the thought in mind that after the last jury acquitted the officers there was four days of rioting and 50 deaths, what will happen to the city if we acquit again?"
So where were the defense attorneys and their duty to ask for a change of venue? I don't see a court of appeal reversing on this issue.
"When King got out of the car, he refused to lie down and the officers made the (correct) assumption from his buffed appearance and his dislike of authority that he was a recently released
ex convict. This led to speculation that because of the three strike law, if he was involved in criminal activity he might resist quite desperately being taken into custody."
Regardless of the resistance offered, a police officer is required to reduce the force used on a suspect commensurate with the suspect's offering of force - with King helpless on the ground, this clearly did not happen here.
"The officers were using the tactics taught by the L.A.P.D. for dealing with a combative subject, under the direction of a supervisor."
False. The Simi jury was willing to believe the (officers) defense case on that. The videotape shows the officers recklessly beating a suspect under the direction of a supervisor, violating several aspects of police training. This does not mean LAPD training may not have been deficient...
"The second guessing after the fact was that the police officers should have swarmed King and brought him down by sheer weight of numbers. At the time, because of the fear of AIDS, all officers tried to avoid close contact with unknown suspects which could result in cuts, bites, or abrasions which could come in contact with blood or saliva of the suspect."
Nonsense. This is 1991 not the early '80s. And swarming, is in fact exactly the correct response there: you overwhelm the suspect, keep the suspect safe by reducing errant limb and head movement, and apply restraints quickly. This not only assures the suspect's safety, but the officers' as well. I myself was taught to do this in a psychiatric ER setting when staff needed to subdue a combative patient. NYPD cops knew how to do it.
In 1984, I watched two Beverly Hills police officers subdue an angry, kicking, biting woman in a bank lobby. She was very strong, refused to go to ground, yet the officers kept their cool, used the baton only as a fulcrum to help get her handcuffed, and DID NOT STRIKE HER ONCE. It was a very professional, restrained performance.
The LAPD had another option they could have used, but didn't: the police dog. A German Shepherd or Belgian Malamut could have grabbed one of Rodney's arms and brought him down, helping the officers subdue him. He would have suffered some dog bites, to be sure, but nothing worse. No one, including the supervisor, thought to call for a K-9 unit, even though they had plenty of time to do so.
It is possible, however, that, given a police force where backup officers are miles away, that initially arriving officers will tend to resort to weapons more quickly - the baton, the TASER, a sap (not exactly legal, but some LAPD officers were known to carry them)- and of course the sidearm. This habit becomes second-nature.
"Although when one looks at the infamous tape of the King beating it really looks bad, at the trial, the tape was played over and over again in slow motion with stops after each blow. The officers explained what part of the body was targeted and why each blow was struck. There were pauses between blows when the officers thought King was going to comply with instructions, and they started up again when he did not."
I saw that tape. Slow-motion here served only one purpose: to obfuscate. You didn't need slow motion to figure out what was going on.
"An experienced L.A.P.D. training officer testified that the blows struck were in accordance with L.A.P.D. training and were appropriate for the situation."
Well, what was he supposed to say? "No, they screwed up?" Does he like his job assignment? Does he want to keep it?
"It became clear that the officers were not beating King from anger, but were following their training."
Not really. Of course, if I recall correctly, the jury didn't see the computer transcripts from the patrol cars where the officers were doing a perfect imitation of a Mississippi lynch mob. Did you miss that too, Tom?
"If anything the case should have been an indictment of the L.A.P.D.'s training and tactics rather than the individual officers."
Really? Officers have no common sense? OK, so how about this (cerca 1945): "I was just following orders. My superiors told me to kill the dirty Jews, so I did. What's wrong with that?"
"If this trial had been given the TV coverage of the O.J. Simpson trial, perhaps more people would have accepted the verdict. To get the full story of the trial it was necessary to follow it in the newspapers, and follow the story to back pages rather than just read the headlines"
That's your fantasy, Tom, and you're entitled to it...The story was all over the place, andthere were plenty of headlines.
Latasha Harkins was a tragedy. There was no excuse for what the woman merchant did. It is also unfortunate, and unjust, that every merchant of Korean ethnicity was tarred the same way...
These "officers" were unprincipled slime buckets with badges. The streets are safer with them no longer on the police force. People are breathing a sigh of relief, and with good reason.
The second guessing after the fact was that the police officers should have swarmed King and brought him down by sheer weight of numbers. At the time, because of the fear of AIDS, all officers tried to avoid close contact with unknown suspects which could result in cuts, bites, or abrasions which could come in contact with blood or saliva of the suspect.
Nonsense. This is 1991 not the early '80s. And swarming, is in fact exactly the correct response there: you overwhelm the suspect, keep the suspect safe by reducing errant limb and head movement, and apply restraints quickly. This not only assures the suspect's safety, but the officers' as well. I myself was taught to do this in a psychiatric ER setting when staff needed to subdue a combative patient. NYPD cops knew how to do it.
In 1984, I watched two Beverly Hills police officers subdue an angry, kicking, biting woman in a bank lobby. She was very strong, refused to go to ground, yet the officers kept their cool, used the baton only as a fulcrum to help get her handcuffed, and DID NOT STRIKE HER ONCE. It was a very professional, restrained performance.
Subduing a person can be far more difficult than you think. When I worked in a criminal courthouse in Connecticut about 8 or 9 years ago, three correctional officers - all large, strong-looking men - were unable to control a defendant who inexplicably went wild. Two court officers, also fairly large men, had to join in the fray, and it was with considerable difficulty (and with the assistance of a copious dose of pepper spray) that they were able to get the defendant hauled out of the courtoom into the lockup. The defendant himself was fairly tall but a bit on the thin side, not some huge buffed-up goon. Oh, and the best part is yet to come. Throughout the entire "proceedings" the defendant was handcuffed and in leg irons.
Your description is accurate, from my experiences with prison inmates.
The smallest guy might suddenly have the strength of Hercules, and could require several large officers to subdue him or her. When I worked in an emergency department, anyone who had to be held down by several hospital police officers was most likely felt to be under the influence of phencyclidine, also known on the street as "angel dust". A very potent and dangerous stimulant, it caused a lot of havoc in hospital ERs and jails. Metamphetamine( "crystal "or "crank" )is another dangerous drug that sometimes causes problems, but it is mostly seen in the South and the Western USA. Again, not every raging maniac is under the influence of drugs, but they are something to consider.
Metamphetamine( "crystal "or "crank" )is another dangerous drug that sometimes causes problems, but it is mostly seen in the South and the Western USA.
Crystal meth may be more of a western thing, but here in the East we have OxyContin, aka Hillbilly Heroin.
As one civilian workerin the jail I work at told me once " every knucklehead out here is a chemist". There is nothing that these fools would not try out to get high. If someone told them that beach sand would give them a buzz, they would try to sniff up Rockaway.
Jones beach would disappear.
People frequently get the stupid idea that just because a drug is legal, it's not dangerous....
"Subduing a person can be far more difficult than you think. When I worked in a criminal courthouse in Connecticut about 8 or 9 years ago, three correctional officers - all large, strong-looking men - were unable to control a defendant who inexplicably went wild. Two court officers, also fairly large men, had to join in the fray, and it was with considerable difficulty (and with the assistance of a copious dose of pepper spray) that they were able to get the defendant hauled out of the courtoom into the lockup. The defendant himself was fairly tall but a bit on the thin side, not some huge buffed-up goon. Oh, and the best part is yet to come. Throughout the entire "proceedings" the defendant was handcuffed and in leg irons."
You're preaching to the choir. I am fully aware of what happens at times, and have seen (and participated in) examples similar to the ones you describe first-hand. Being prepared with a lot of trained bodies, and adding more, if needed, addresses that very well. In the law-enforcement setting, a police dog can help a great deal also, depending on the situation. There was no excuse of what LAPD did to Rodney King. None. Zero.
>>> So where were the defense attorneys and their duty to ask for a change of venue? I don't see a court of appeal reversing on this issue. <<<
The defense attorneys did ask for a change of venue and it was denied. Just because a judge did not grant the change of venue does not mean it should not have been granted. Judges are human and subject to fallibility, but don't try to tell that to some of the federal judges in Los Angeles, they are appointed for life, and some of them think they are gods.
>>> Regardless of the resistance offered, a police officer is required to reduce the force used on a suspect commensurate with the suspect's offering of force <<<
You seem to forget this was a time when the police use of pain to gain compliance was generally condoned. It wasn't until police started using pain compliance on unresisting middle class protesters (pepper spray in the eyes, twisting arms and lifting in such a way that if the subject does not get up the arm will be dislocated) that the practice was challenged in court and stopped.
>>> The officers were using the tactics taught by the L.A.P.D. for dealing with a combative subject, under the direction of a supervisor.
False. The Simi jury was willing to believe the (officers) defense case on that. <<<
And of course it is the jury's job to evaluate the evidence presented and determine which is believable and which is not believable. There is no sense in having a trial if the jury cannot believe the evidence presented by the defense.
>>> At the time, because of the fear of AIDS, all officers tried to avoid close contact with unknown suspects which could result in cuts, bites, or abrasions which could come in contact with blood or saliva of the suspect.
Nonsense. This is 1991 not the early '80s. <<<
And your point is??? It was five years later, in 1996, when Magic Johnson tried but was unable to return to pro basketball because other NBA players were concerned about playing basketball with him because he was HIV positive, and there was a possibility that he might receive a cut during a game and bleed on the other players. Emergency workers in 1991, and still today are very cautious about coming in contact with blood and bodily fluids of strangers they come into contact with on the job.
>>> I myself was taught to do this [swarming] in a psychiatric ER setting when staff needed to subdue a combative patient. NYPD cops knew how to do it. <<<
I am certainly glad that they do not use batons to subdue mental patients in an ER. That would really be a PR nightmare. There is a difference between subduing a mental patient in the relatively controlled setting of a hospital, and facing an unknown stranger. And regardless of the training given to NYPD cops (who seem to have their own special techniques with a baton) the swarming technique was not the L.A.P.D. approved way of dealing with a suspect in the field.
>>> In 1984, I watched two Beverly Hills police officers subdue an angry, kicking, biting woman in a bank lobby. <<<
Beverly Hills cops tend to be more courteous because they often deal with politically powerful people, but even they might have acted differently if they were dealing with a buffed ex-con who they thought might be high on PCP.
Ladies do not fare so well in Los Angeles. In the ‘70s, Eula Love was shot (11 times IIRC) and killed on her front lawn when she became angered over having her gas shut off, refused to put down a kitchen knife and threw it in the direction of one of several police officers. More recently a homeless woman was stopped to be questioned about the ownership of a shopping cart she was pushing, and when she advanced on one of two officers present with a pair of scissors she was shot and killed. In neither case were the police officers involved charged with a crime.
>>> LAPD had another option they could have used, but didn't: the police dog. <<<
You can't be serious. What great film that would have made. The police dog ripping at the man's flesh while he kicked an screamed and tried to protect his face and throat from the fangs while police stood around in a circle, or perhaps he would fight back and get a hold of the dog and try to break its neck, at which time he would be shot and killed by the dog's handler.
The L.A.P.D. had to change the way they used their dogs after the courts disallowed their "find and bite" technique of searching for suspects, and insisted that they use "find and bark."
>>> An experienced L.A.P.D. training officer testified that the blows struck were in accordance with L.A.P.D. training and were appropriate for the situation.
Well, what was he supposed to say? "No, they screwed up?" Does he like his job assignment? Does he want to keep it? <<<
You are asking the wrong question. The correct question is what do you expect the jury to do? Are they to ignore the expert testimony presented to them? They are charged with finding facts based on the evidence presented in court. That testimony was part of the evidence.
>>> if I recall correctly, the jury didn't see the computer transcripts from the patrol cars where the officers were doing a perfect imitation of a Mississippi lynch mob <<<
And now you are suggesting that the jury should have convicted on evidence that they were not aware of. And you are right, I was unaware that anything the officers said at the scene had been recorded and transcribed. I do not remembers seeing any such transcriptions in the newspapers, and if they existed and it was possible to identify who said what, it should have been introduced into evidence.
>>> Officers have no common sense? OK, so how about this (cerca 1945): "I was just following orders. My superiors told me to kill the dirty Jews, so I did. What's wrong with that?" <<<
Ah, playing the "Nazi card" are we? There is qualitative difference between the holocaust and what happened to Rodney King. And even after WW II, the common soldiers who fired the bullets were not brought to the bar of justice. At a later date, the soldiers who did the killing of women and children at Mei Lei were not charged, only the officer giving the order (and his punishment was being confined to quarters for 30 days).
The King case was not about whether the techniques used were so horrible that even if the officers were told to use them they should know they were immoral. It was about whether the force used was excessive for the circumstances.
>>> The story was all over the place, andthere were plenty of headlines. <<<
The story of the beating, not the trial, complete with a tape of the beating being played each time was all over the TV news. And usually there was a snippet on the TV news of the attorneys talking on the courthouse steps. That was not enough to fully understand what was going on in the courtroom. More than half of Los Angelinos get their news from TV, and I dare say that among those who took to the streets after the verdict, the percentage was even higher. These were not people who read detailed analyses of the trial and its nuances. They were people who believed from the information they received (which was far less than the jury received) that no honest jury could acquit the officers.
>>> These "officers" were unprincipled slime buckets with badges. The streets are safer with them no longer on the police force <<<
It is a shame that you think that way, because the overwhelming attitude of the rank and file of the L.A.P.D. was "there but for the grace of God go I" when the officers were convicted in Federal Court. The perception on the force was that the officers who were convicted were doing the job that the L.A.P.D. told them to do in the way they were taught to do it, and they were sacrificed by the top brass for political expediency. Morale started going downhill then and has not recovered. When Stacey Koon, the sergeant who was given the longest term was released from prison, the LAPRAAC ( Los Angeles Police Revolver and Athletic Club) which is a private club of L. A. police officers held a welcome home benefit dinner for him. They wanted to hold it at the Police Academy which they own, but they got flack from the police chief and had to hold it elsewhere. It was well attended. This does not mean most L.A. police officers are brutal or condone brutality. It means their sense of fairness was offended.
Tom
man ! that was "really a good " & a, { ON TOPIC POST } !!!! lol !!!
& all about " Rail Transit systems WORLDWIDE not just nyc ".....lol!!
at least you could have mentioned that the {long beach blue line} ran during the civil distrubance / rebellions of 1992 !! lol !!
bush !! send me my tax refund check now !!! .........lol !!!!!
man ! that was "really a good " & a, { ON TOPIC POST } !!!! lol !!! & all about " Rail Transit systems WORLDWIDE not just nyc ".....lol!! at least you could have mentioned that the {long beach blue line} ran during the civil distrubance / rebellions of 1992 !! lol !!
Running the blue line through the riot zone was probably NOT a good idea, as it unnecessarily exposed passengers and staff to extreme danger. Fortunately nothing happened, but things could have turned out differently.
"Running the blue line through the riot zone was probably NOT a good idea, as it unnecessarily exposed passengers and staff to extreme danger. Fortunately nothing happened, but things could have turned out differently."
Could they have charged extra for a "thrill" ride? :0)
its true !! & there was NO problems at all the line ran smooth as silk!!
Oh, what do you know, Shithead
its true !! & there was NO problems at all the line ran smooth as silk!!
I'm sure you're right. But the fact remains that running the blue line through the riot zone could have resulted in disaster and probably was an unnecessary risk.
yes sir!! It was possible but even the los angeles sheriffs & lapd who did security & patrols on the long beach blue line saw no
threat to the operation of the los angeles blue line & everyone behaved themselves so well they let the line run itself !!
this was the most underreported trivia about the so called 1992 rodney king " riots " etc...& most unknown history as well........
& the most amazing thing here is that the los angeles blue line 1991____ to today ran before during & after the civil disturbances
of 1992!! I think it says something good about the way the riders valued thier one year old rail transit system here !!! lol !!! & the rest of the city, .................oh well...................( sigh ) .......!!!
Go figure. They burnt everything else down.
not really just the store & landloards & property owners setting FIRE TO THIER OWN BUILDINGS then collecting arson / insurance
FRAUD kickbacks after the ashes cooled off !! ( I was gald to see the liquor stores go ) ...lol !!!
Prove it. 90% of the world saw everything live on TV. I suppose the store owners paid the 'rioters' to steal and burn? Yeah, right. What hole are you still living in?
-Hank
>>> 90% of the world saw everything live on TV <<<
Not everything. There was a lot more going on than the TV cameras saw. A friend of mine who had a bail bond business on Broadway at 77th Street, had no trouble with looters, but on the 2nd night a mysterious fire was started at the back of the building in wood stacked against the back door. It was seen quickly and extinguished. by those who were inside the building. If no one had been there, the building probably would have burned down.
I think it is fair to say that at least a few of the fires were insurance inspired arson, but the vast majority were not. It is also true that some of the deaths were not random but were intentional homicides under the cover of the riots.
Tom
Hmmmmm so the people we saw on CNN running down the street with color TVs, Nike sneakers etc, were all merchants? The people who pulled Regenald Denny out of his truck and beat him nearly to death were all merchants? I couldn't tell that from the camera angle in the news copter. Luckily we have you to clearify the mis-impressions that we have.
Don't you just love the way some people try to justify doing something stupid and wrong by invoking some other injustice?
Yes. The verdicts against those cops that beat Rodney King were wrong.
But how does the decision of a few reactionary jurors in Simi Valley justify stores being destroyed and lives being ruined many miles away?
Did beating Reginald Denny help Rodney King's cause? Did the destruction of small mom-and-pop businesses help advance justice?
Aren't Euphamisms great? A riot becomes "Social Unrest". That's as bad as calling genocide "Ethnic Cleansing" or the killing of civillians in a war "Colleteral Damage".
A few neo-facist cops get off easy, so I guess that justifies stealing TV sets out of a department store.
I guess the people standing up on the roof of the building across from, parading around with shotguns, were just some tenants trying to protect themselves from a greedy landlord. (I lived several miles away, in Palms, and watched buildings go up in flames less than a half a mile from me.)
One thing is certain: Several days of stupidity didn't discriminate against any ethnic group. The images on TV of the looters showed a microcosm of Los Angeles' diverse population.
Sometimes I think Salaam writes this stuff deliberately to piss people off. Maybe he realizes were becoming numb to his usual "railfan window" nonsense.
>>> Don't you just love the way some people try to justify doing something stupid and wrong by invoking some other injustice? <<<
Justify is not the correct word. Sociologists try to explain the causes of a riot so that what seem like irrational acts can be explained and possibly prevented in the future.
A riot is not composed of people thinking rationally that the cause of the riot justifies the destruction which results. It is the action of a group of persons who emotionally pass the point objective reasoning. It has some trigger to get it started, but that trigger is not the cause.
To suggest that one who tries to to determine the causes of a riot is somehow justifying the actions of the rioters is foolish. To ignore the causes of a riot because one thinks the results of the riot are not justified is equally foolish.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana (1863 - 1952)
It is interesting that the commission which studied the causes of the 1992 riots found many of the same things which were the causes of the 1965 riots.
Tom
Well during the Crown Heights riots, the 3 and 4 trains still ran along Eastern Pkwy. Only the buses, especially the B46 along Utica Ave was stopped due to crowds that begin to gather.....
>>> But the fact remains that running the blue line through the riot zone could have resulted in disaster and probably was an unnecessary risk. <<<
Unlike 1965 when the worst of the disturbances were contained in a relatively small area that was cordoned off by the National Guard, the 1992 looting an burning went on throughout the city, with groups of looters traveling by car. After the first day with the violence at Florence and Normandie, traffic was generally left alone and the emphasis was on looting and burning business establishments. In an effort to calm the populace and convince them that the trouble was over, the RTD did their best to maintain all regular public transportation. During the day the Blue Line and the city buses were necessary to get people to work. The Blue Line passed by some places where looting was going on, which was generally done with a carnival like atmosphere, but it did not pass through any areas of street fighting. Since the T/Os were in radio contact with their dispatcher, it would be possible to report any area where there was a problem quickly, and halt the trains if necessary. I think the MTA did the correct thing in keeping the Blue Line running. Suspending service would have been over reacting.
Tom
RTD's reasoning was more or less on-target, I think.
excuse me sir but i think you got it wrong about the 1965 rebellion in which they never did exactly set any boundries & especially
with our STEALTH MAYOR of that time " the ol' bigot sam yorty' & his kkk grand dragon chief parker of the lapd !!( august 1965 )
& Wrong again the civil disturbances was totally visable from all parts of the LONG BEACHY BLUE LINE which ran right thru the
CENTER of this whole 1992 rebellion !!......geeeezzzz!!! lol !! & I thought you posted you lived here & knew what you were talking about !!???
The RTD / MTA knew the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE was not any kind of a target of the so called rioters etc... & ...............
the property owners of the buildings that they set fire themselves THE LANDLORDS & not the looters setting fire to thier own buildings!!
@ to get " fraud kickback insurance fraud claims " & that is the truth !!!
While the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE ran totally unaffected & unmolested & untouched in any way during the 1992 civil unrest here !! lol ~@!
Unlike 1965 when the worst of the disturbances were contained in a relatively small area that was cordoned off by the National Guard, the 1992 looting an burning went on throughout the city, with groups of looters traveling by car. After the first day with the violence at Florence and Normandie, traffic was generally left alone and the emphasis was on looting and burning business establishments. In an effort to calm the populace and convince them that the trouble was over, the RTD did their best to maintain all regular public transportation. During the day the Blue Line and the city buses were necessary to get people to work. The Blue Line passed by some places where looting was going on, which was generally done with a carnival like atmosphere, but it did not pass through any areas of street fighting. Since the T/Os were in radio contact with their dispatcher, it would be possible to report any area where there was a problem quickly, and halt the trains if necessary. I think the MTA did the correct thing in keeping the Blue Line running. Suspending service would have been over reacting.
Makes sense. News reports at the time seemed to indicate that rioting was concentrated in a few geographic areas, and I suppose that impression was especially strong among people (like me, at the time) who didn't know much about Los Angeles-area geography. Clearly it would have been unwise to have run the blue line through a concentrated riot zone. But with "dispersed" rioting, I suppose it wouldn't have mattered. Thanks for the information.
NYC question - did the J line run along Broadway in Brooklyn during the 1977 blackout riots?
but missed by old tom & others as well.. was that the 1965 disturbances was wider than what was actually reported !!! .....he he he he !!
>>> but missed by old tom & others as well.. was that the 1965 disturbances was wider than what was actually reported <<<
??? I was there in 1965 and know how far the disturbances extended, and saw what was reported in the L.A. Times and L.A. Herald-Examiner which was generally accurate. Please give specifics, if you have any, of where disturbances were not reported.
Tom
i m not telling other than the truth here !!
shithead
??????????????????...............................!
shithead??..........speak for yourself only .........lol!!!
also i would like to add ( even if subwaysurf decides to ignore this ) that this DID HAPPEN & is a permanent piece of the first electric
rail system ever re-installed since the { laRy & PE system was dismantled & dissembled } & thsi IS also a part of the permanent trivia
- true history of the re-introduction of urban electric rail transit here in the los angeles county area ! Even if SOME choose to ignore this
actual fact of the history of the " LONG BEACH BLUE LINE " it is allright with me as we were here when this "1992 shit" whent down !!
LOL !!!! & as i was driving around in my 1972 delta 88 oldsmobile watching all of the building fires etc not set by the looters .....
but set by the property owners for INSURANCE KICKBACK ARSON FRAUD money (while blaming it falsely on the 1992"riot")
While this was going on ( ON TOPIC ) The LOS ANGELES LONG BEACH BLUE LINE 1991____ on was running 24/ 7 lol!!!
now who is the (shithead)?? eh subwaysurf ?? I was here & saw this go down !!! he he he he he he !! ........lol !!!!!!!!
Also I bought a ticket & watched the so called 1992 "riot" from the comfortable & safe SEAT of the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE !!
@ laughing my ass off here ( lamo ) & lol !!! he he eh he he he he he he he he he he he he he he .........lol !!!
>>> The LOS ANGELES LONG BEACH BLUE LINE 1991____ on was running 24/ 7 <<<<
The Blue Line does not now have 24 hour service. (Nor does the Red or Green Lines). When was the service cut back from 24 hour service?
Tom
I did not say the line ran 24/7 !!! ( BUT ) the REGULAR etc.... service was not stopped during the 1992 civil disturbances !!!
geeeeezzzzzzzz............
Um, you did, numbnuts.
Um, you did, numbnuts.....?????????
Question for the subtalker who changes his handle like a farmer changes the SLOP he feeds to his PIGS...
where you here when this whent down ?? or as usaual you dont have a clue ?? ........lol !!
You said the line ran 24/7. Then you said it didn't.
Maybe you can go up and read the message. I'm not sure if you can read though.
No i did not say it ran 24 / 7 sory if you misunderstoond hope this clears this up ....lol!!!
i am using my reading glasses and can see & read nicely / can you ??........lol!!
Excuse me, but here's the text copied from your earlier post: The LOS ANGELES LONG BEACH BLUE LINE 1991____ on was running 24/ 7 lol!!!
Now whos's the dimbulb? Better get those reading glasses changed.
>>> Excuse me, but here's the text copied from your earlier post: <<<
Hey, Salaam is a Clintonian Democrat, and therefore it depends what the meaning of "is" is. (Or in this case what the meaning of "was" was.) :-)
Tom
"Hey"!....Salaam is a Clintonian Democrat??
No , actually I fell out with mr.clinton when he goosestepped ( excuse the pun folks ) with gingrich & signed the welfare-deform-cut-off-bill back in 1996
No good president johnson-democrat would have done this ( even if he was from texas ) ....!
However I do want to make a correction about any impression that i said the the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE ran a 24 hour shift during the 1992 los angeles civil rebellion etc & no 24/7 here.!
It did run during all regular hours however !! lol { CORECTION }..thank you , salamallah
"The defense attorneys did ask for a change of venue and it was denied. Just because a judge did not grant the change of venue does not mean it should not have been granted. Judges are human and subject to fallibility, but don't try to tell that to some of the federal judges in Los Angeles, they are appointed for life, and some of them think they are gods."
That's why there is such a thing as a Court of Appeals, Tom. If the Appeals Court doesn't reverse, there's a pretty good chance the federal judge got it right the first time. And this time, he did.
"There is a difference between subduing a mental patient in the relatively controlled setting of a hospital, and facing an unknown stranger."
The difference can be great or trivial, depending. I've been there; perhaps you haven't.
">>> In 1984, I watched two Beverly Hills police officers subdue an angry, kicking, biting woman in a bank lobby. <<<
Beverly Hills cops tend to be more courteous because they often deal with politically powerful people, but even they might have acted differently if they were dealing with a buffed ex-con who they thought might be high on PCP."
I didn't use that example to claim that BHPD is perfect- it isn't. But those two officers led by example. Too bad LAPD didn't follow it.
"Ah, playing the "Nazi card" are we?"
Yes, because it relates to making moral choices about which orders are lawful and which are not. We are all responsible for making choices like that, Tom.
">>> LAPD had another option they could have used, but didn't: the police dog. <<<
You can't be serious. What great film that would have made. The police dog ripping at the man's flesh while he kicked an screamed and tried to protect his face and throat from the fangs while police stood around in a circle, or perhaps he would fight back and get a hold of the dog and try to break its neck, at which time he would be shot and killed by the dog's handler."
Where did you learn this from? Chuck Norris? Charles Bronson? John Wayne?
A police dog can be a lifesaver - for both suspect and officers. Police dogs do not go for the throat or face. They are trained to restrain an arm or leg, and to release quickly once the suspect is subdued. It was one more way to try to bring King down quickly, and with a minimum of violence.
"It is a shame that you think that way, because the overwhelming attitude of the rank and file of the L.A.P.D. was "there but for the grace of God go I" when the officers were convicted in Federal Court. The perception on the force was that the officers who were convicted were doing the job that the L.A.P.D. told them to do in the way they were taught to do it, and they were sacrificed by the top brass for political expediency."
The LAPD has a problem of "us vs. them," more so than most other departments. The average LAPD officer has much less of a sense of community and neighborhood than the average NYPD officer. Not their fault entirely, I suppose. This is where I would agree with you that training is deficient. The top brass' attitude is deficient. And having only 7,000 officers to cover more than 400 square miles doesn't help. But it could be compensated for...
"They wanted to hold (the dinner) it at the Police Academy which they own, but they got flack from the police chief and had to hold it elsewhere. "
This is one time when the police chief actually set a good moral example. That's part of his job. Too bad he and the brass didn't set that example before the incident happened, at the police academy and with the training officers.
nice post !
The LAPD had another option they could have used, but didn't: the police dog. A German Shepherd or Belgian Malamut could have grabbed one of Rodney's arms and brought him down, helping the officers subdue him. He would have suffered some dog bites, to be sure, but nothing worse. No one, including the supervisor, thought to call for a K-9 unit, even though they had plenty of time to do so
For all the supposed ferocity of the beating, King actually suffered relatively minor injuries - a few head cuts and an uncomplicated leg fracture, IIRC. He might very well have suffered worse injuries from a police dog.
"For all the supposed ferocity of the beating, King actually suffered relatively minor injuries - a few head cuts and an uncomplicated leg fracture, IIRC. He might very well have suffered worse injuries from a police dog."
An uncomplicated leg fracture is much worse than anything the police dog would have done.
""The merchant, Soon Ja Du, a 49-year old Korean woman who, with her husband, owned the Empire Liquor Market Deli in South
Central LA was charged with murder. She was later found guilty of voluntary manslaughter, but the Judge, Joyce Karlin, granted
the defendant probation. At the sentencing, Karlin's demeanor was described as "dogmatic, even arrogant," as she lectured blacks.
She reportedly admonished the dead girl's grandmother, saying none of this would have happened had her granddaughter not gone
into the store. The store closed immediately after the shooting and never reopened. Not surprisingly it burned during the 1992
riots. """"""""""" HELL SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF 1st DEGREE MURDER !!!
The 1992 riots, with the slogan "No justice, no peace," were a reaction to both cases. It was not a coincidence that Korean owned
liquor stores and other businesses, even in Koreatown were particular targets of the riots and were looted and burned. """""
************************************************************************************************************
Well i am was glad to see the liquor stores go up in flames & most of them not returning !! judge karlin was the worst kkk ever !!
then we were sold out by comptons pat moore who was found out for what she really is & just got out of prison .( send her back )..
***********************************************************************************************************
"""""""Holding the Federal trial in Los Angeles was a travesty of justice"""""????????????????
the first trial should have ben found with a GUILTY VERDICT!! ( Do you rememberr the 1965 watts rebellion & why this happened )???
hmmmmmmm!!!! & the same problem that has still not been delat with ( police brutality & mob attacks on the most vunerable )
************************************************************************
the next line below is not true & you must not have been in southern california when this real deal whent down here !!!
""""????If this trial had been given the TV coverage of the O.J. Simpson trial, perhaps more people would have accepted the verdict????""""""
Sorry folks the entire trial was shown on live television here ( not just news reports shown later at night ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
************************************************************************
some of my questions go to the shooting & murder of margaret mitchell a HOMELESS elderly black woman here SHOT dead !!
( the lies told against her were insane & too long to post here ) !!! & she was MURDERED by lapd non motorized bike patrols !!
so the madness against the poor blacks homeless & any onters the law enforcement agencies here still spin out of control!!
*********************************************************************************************************
In tampa florida videocameras MONITOR all who walk down almost any STREET there !! "" big government, brother ""!!!!
Here in lost angeles whe have an EPIDEMIC of video cameras taking PICTURES of so called ""red light runners""
( jeorge orwells 1984 again ) with equipment that is calibrated by who knows what ?? some hanky panky was found out as well.....
A large CRACKDOWN is being done by even the METER MAIDS (parking enforcement gestapos) to any who drive any vehicle
WITHOUT ANY FRONT LISCENSE PLATE !! @ this is so the red light out of calibration cameras can catch anyone who is over
the crosswalk imediately when any traffic light SUDDENLY & QUICKLY changes from green to red quick fast & in a hurry !!
in san diego at least they are putting up a noble FIGHT against this crap!!!!! good for them i hope they win BIG TIME !!!
**************************************************************FINALLY BACK ON TOPIC OF SUBTALK *******
The blue line light rail system ran as normal during the entire time of the 1992 los angeles county rebellion here !! Operations
were as totally normal with no problems of any kind whatsoever & the line ran as smooth as silk !!!!........lol !!!
Salaam Allah see you in nyc this october to shoot some more video !!
that was the only good thing here that is on topic here at SUBTALK the blue line light rail ran during the so called
"" 1992 riots "" !!!!! lol !!!
Thanks for the enlightening information. I now see some of the things that led up to what happened there. I hope those who are in control of things at present resolve to repair the damage and make proper law enforcement the ultimate goal of the LAPD.
(If government (elected officials) wants to go in a particular direction, appointed officials who oppose their masters are likely to lose their jobs- regardless of how ably they perform otherwise.)
Perhaps, then, you realy agree with my assessment of who is responsible for all the things the MTA has failed to do over the decades. The pols love trashing the "unaccountable" bureaucrats, and part of their job is to take it. We know who sent the money elsewhere, and made the deals.
I think that had something to do with it, sure. But our own Mayor Beame had something to do with it too (remember the Beame Shuffle)?
The E line is mostly R32s because i have grown up on the E. Lately however, at least 2 R46's can be seen if u ride the E line all the way. Talking to a Motorman on the E, R46's appear alot on Mondays. Yesterday i saw 4 in a row, and i was riding one! They borrow them from the R broadway local line. On tuesday around now, it might be a few R46's but R32s are all over the E like white on Rice.
I say the E is good with Either R32s or R46's. R32's have better brakes according to Motormen, but R46's give the E express better speed!!! Average speed of R32's 5mph between Roosevelt and Queens plaza, R46's around 54mph. Motormen gotta really watch out for those Timers!!
That is because R ran to Jamaica Center last weekend. Naturally more R46s were on the E line the next weekday.
Chaohwa
true
[Average speed of R32's 5mph between Roosevelt and Queens plaza, R46's around 54mph.]
I hope that's a typo.
I find it in the 39 for both, top speed you can reach without running a danger is 44 anyway
Anyone know why the IND mezzanines were built so wide. At some stations it would be impossible to fill the hallways with people? Thanks...........
I think they were built that way because everyone knows "bigger is better."
Anyone know why the IND mezzanines were built so wide. At some stations it would be impossible to fill the hallways with people.
In part it's because the IND was overbuilt. Transit use was on the steady rise when the city began planning the IND, and the system was designed to meet anticipated higher future demand rather than the demand that actually existed at the time. It didn't occur to anyone that subway ridership in fact might not keep rising at such a high rate.
By the time the IND actually was in use, the Great Depression lowered ridership below earlier levels, what alone had been planned. After a temporary blip caused by World War II, increased suburbanization and car use combined to pressure ridership levels. As a result, it's fair to say that the IND never handled the number of riders it was designed to accommodate.
But you have to admit that it is a pleasure to be able to walk on the mezzanine level without being in a crowd.
And now they're planning to build a 2-track 2nd Ave. subway with no provisions for future express service. Helloooooo! C'mon, unless someone invents a flying car, transit ridership can only increase in the future. There ain't no place for no more roads, folks. You gotta applaud the IND for thinking ahead. Would that there were more such foresight in the world.
hear, hear! right you are and the incremental cost of the mezzanines was so low as to be meaningless. As well, I believe it was mostly cut and cover so its just part of the box.
One possible explanation is that they had to excavate down to the track level, and instead of filling in above the platforms, it was better to just leave the space open as a mezzanine.
Take West 4th Street as an example.
Piles were presumably driven around the footprint of the intended lower level platform. The lower level platform occupies the same footprint as the upper level platform. Station construction would begin by excavating the material contained by the piles down to the level of the lower platform. The lower level would then be constructed. Instead of filling back in on top of a portion of the lower level, the space was left completely open as the mezzanine you see today. The upper level would then be built. You need an upper mezzanine for an express station. Again, the builders could have partially filled in around the piles, but it may have just been easier to construct the entire space as a mezzanine.
I have no idea how West 4th Street was actually constructed, and I am basing this theory solely on my few visits to the station. There are other possible explanations.
MATT-2AV
Aside from allowing uptown/downtown transfers, the middle level mezzanine at West Fourth Street was manditory, because it's on the same level the PATH trains are when it comes onto Sixth Ave. from Christopher St. The A/C/E have to travel above the PATH tracks, while the B/D/F/Q trains (or just the F trains as of next Monday) have to cross under the PATH tracks at Christopher St.
(or just the F trains as of next Monday)
And the Shuttle train, too!
Is the shuttle going to W. Fourth? I thought only Grand to B`way-Lafayette.
The other shuttle. The one from Queensbridge.
Forgot about that one...
From today's Associated Press wire:
***
LONDON (AP) - Bob Kiley, the New Yorker hired to turn around
London's struggling subway, was fired from the system's governing
body Tuesday for opposing government plans to partly privatize the
network.
Transport Secretary Stephen Byers said Kiley had been removed as
chairman and board member of London Regional Transport, the body
that oversees the London Underground.
The dramatic move raised the stakes in a long-running battle
between Prime Minister Tony Blair's government and London Mayor Ken
Livingstone, who favors full public ownership of the system.
Byers said Kiley had tried to use his board position to block
negotiations with private firms bidding to run portions of the
subway system.
"When I announced the government's decision to ask London
Transport to continue with their plans for investment in a publicly
run, privately built Tube ... I had hoped (Kiley) would accept our
decision, despite his disagreements."
"Unfortunately," Byers said in a statement, "this hasn't been
the case."
Kiley, a former New York subway chief, was hired last year as
transport commissioner by Livingstone and charged with overhauling
London's aging, cash-starved subway system.
The two have fought against government plans for a
public-private partnership that would carve up the system among
private contractors. Livingstone has expressed fears about safety
under the new arrangement, and Kiley has argued that he needs to
have control of the whole system in order to deliver improvements.
Despite the disagreement, in May the government appointed Kiley
chairman of London Regional Transport, charged with leading
negotiations on the contracts to run parts of the subway. On June
29, Kiley wrote to Blair reporting that he had been unable to reach
an agreement with the bidders.
Kiley's ouster is effective immediately, Byers said. His
replacement is London Regional Transport's former chairman, Sir
Malcolm Bates.
Kiley remains commissioner of Transport for London, the
transport arm of London's local government, the Greater London
Authority.
Transport for London runs London's buses, trams, ferries and
other public transport, and is scheduled to take control of the
subway system once the public-private partnership is completed.
Maybe we can get him back.
He still has his original job. The job he was fired from is an additional one that was offered as a peace gesture a few months ago.
May-November 1995. Do you remeber that time period? Yes, it was when the 6th av Manhattan Bridge tracks were shut down during the middays, weekends and Saturday Late Nights. (the Broadway tracks were not open just in case you didn't know).
During that period, the following events occured:
57/6th av shut down during those times.
West End Train terminates at Pacific during these times
Lone Brighton train (Q) runs via montague tunnel and express up Broadway.
C train is the only CPW local
The B train is presently slated to run middays on CPW. I find this a waste of cars. Even before the above mentioned construction, CPW was served by one local during the middays and weekends, that was the (K) which ran solely so that CPW would be served during the midday hours. The B train terminated at 57/6th av all times (strangely, this train always ran as a 6th av local except to bklyn PM hours. This meant that there was a B running express and a B running local during the AM hours, and in the PM hours northbound only).
But now, the B train is not the West End Line, and the train stops at 34th. Why can't it become a rush hours only line again? This would save resources, and it would make the most sense.
I had the same idea, but then I thought it out fully.
The C can't run alone middays on CPW at its current headways. Off-peak ridership has gone up since 1995 and the days of the K. Believe it or not, I've seen midday crowds at the CPW stations.
To make up for lost B service at the CPW stations, the C would have to run more frequently, at least between 59 and 145.
At the same time, service from 59 to 6th Avenue would also need a boost. Granted, that corridor won't be as popular as it is now, but it could use something.
What that leaves us with is a version of the C that branches off towards 6th Avenue at 59, terminating (say) at 34.
But that's precisely the B!
>>The C can't run alone middays on CPW at its current headways. Off-peak ridership has gone up since 1995 and the days of the K. Believe it or not, I've seen midday crowds at the CPW stations.<<
That's when a train is late. And those 'crowds' are often just bunching of people near the entrances.
>>At the same time, service from 59 to 6th Avenue would also need a boost. Granted, that corridor won't be as popular as it is now, but it could use something.<<
The D train would be sufficient during the Midday. It would not need a boost.
Run The C On 6 Avenue from 4 Street North to 57 then west returning to 8 Avenue/Central Park West. Operate A/E Skip Stop From 50 Street to 4 street.
Take it from me, someone who lives with the 1/9 skip stop lunacy, you don't want it.........
Skip-stop is used when there are a lot of passengers near the end of a line that doesn't have express tracks. It's entirely inappropriate for the A and E. You want all trains to stop at the major transfer points: 59, 42, 34, 14, and W4. That leaves 50 and 23. Let the A skip both, on the express track, rather than crowding the local track and having the A skip one and the E skip the other. (Actually, theoretically, the E could stop at 50 and continue on the express track, while the A takes the local track, bypasses 50, and stops at 23. But I really don't see the point.)
If the C runs over to 6th Avenue, it's really nothing but the B, as I've pointed out. (A few details to correct, though. First, the connection between 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue is at 53rd Street, not 57th Street. Second, that connection leads only to the express tracks on 6th Avenue; if the D is terminating at 34, the B -- or C, as you call it -- really has no option but to also terminate at 34.)
You really must be as loco as your name suggests.
Passengers want more service not less.
I'm going to be at the Atlanta Airport on the way to my NYC railfanning trip this weekend and am wondering if I shoould hop on the MARTA and ride up past Dunwoody to the new 2 Northsprings stations. Are the stations or new rails there anything special or would I be wasting my time?
Let me know, Thanks
How much lay up time will you have? It takes about 45 minutes or more to get to North Springs, so you'd need about 2 hours or more to be on the safe side.
It's up to you whether it's worth going. The stations are really nice looking and the tunnels are really clean. One cool thing that I like is that 30 seconds before a train approaches in the tunnels, a string yellow flashing strobe lights blink all the way down the tunnel to warn workers that a train is coming. This way the trains don't have to sound their horn when entering a tunnel and disturb the businesses around there. You can see this work at Sandy Springs, or looking thru the front of the train.
Is it true that some R-62's from the #4 line are maintained at Concourse? I've seen pictures of R-62's in Concourse, and heard something like that before...
They're stored at Concourse but maintained at the Jerome Av Facility (Mosholu Yard).
-Stef
They also use the car wash facility at Concourse yard.
Exactly! Concourse is particularly heavy these days with Redbirds waiting to meet their end.
Redbirds stand on a few tracks while lowly 1369 sits on a track by the bumping block. I'm surprised it hasn't been moved.
-Stef
1369 most likely won't be moved any time soon. While I have this on no particular authority, I would guess that it has to do with the fact that the car does not belong to the TA.
As to the state of Concourse Yard, it's about to become somewhat busier. When the flip-service goes into effect, we'll be laying up 10 B's and 8 D's every night. That's 4 more Bs and 3 more Ds than today. Finding 7 tracks won't be easy. Consider storage for up to 140 redbirds, 4-5 #4 trains daily, 2-3 worktrains plus the 4 collector cars - there will be precious little room left at the inn.
Who belongs to 1369? Didn't see it in the museum roster and I *assume* it's an R6 since that car number would fit that series. Then again, BRT had that number range too thus I was wondering.
Hey buddy, right number, wrong car class. 1369 is a wrecked R-62, a car which spends it's days alone, after a collision at Fordham Rd in 2000.
BTW Kev, I am awaiting the return of car 6688 to the rails..... Plattsburgh will be sending the car at some future time. Let's celebrate!
Cheers,
Stef
Heh. Sorry, when I see low numbers, I think of old cars. Can't help myself there. I think it's time for the TA to go to five digits just to minimize the confusion. Then again, I know the thinking ... this ain't baseball, we ain't retiring shirts. :)
I actually don't know who owns 1369. The car was leased to the NYCT, however as many cars are.
Hmmm ... Stef seems to think it's part of the Fordham wreck. Do ya know what kind of car it is? Not that I'm a foamer and really care much (only time I wrote down car numbers in a book was when I was working the property so as to be able to explain when needed, "no, I wasn't ON that train last Tuesday, see?") but if it's a fast "I know that one" then I'm curious ... if it ain't, no sweat. :)
Stef is correct. The car was part of the recent mishap and is, indeed, an R-62. Many cars are not owned by the MTA but are leased tot he respective agency. Some M-1/M-3 are actually owned by the Port Authority. I believe that at one time 26 of the R-68s were also leased. It was a great tax shelter in the 80s but I'm not sure if it still holds true.
Wow ... means I might be able to rent a train after all. Heh. Thanks for clearing that up!
But Kev, it wouldn't have AMUE braking.:-)
I'll FUDGE it ... hell ... if I could stop an R9, I'm sure today's modern robotic joystics will be like driving a Rolls. :)
Wait `till the R-160s start showing up later this decade, probably carrying the current IRT high 8000-low 9000 Redbird numbers. That'll be a bit hard to get used to for a while.
Well, at least they haven't gone back to THREE digits ... they're still unmistakeable. :)
Do they ever use the express track on the Concourse line for storage other than during a cold weather contingency plan?
Only when the yard is closed for G.O.s
I forgot your email, what was it again?
Also, all i got is High school Diploma, I am a McDonalds Grill operator, I volunteer for MTA New York City Transit, and I am on my way to College. Do u think thats enough, or do u think i should wait a while before applying?
When you respond to a posted message, you should do it as a response, not as a new message.
What are some transit systems that allow train to just back up after a station overshoot? I know some communter train does this.
TTC
PATCO
Bob, didn't we watch a T/O overshoot a station on the BSS and back up to compensate?
Yes; thanks for jogging my memory.
SEPTA.
SIR
I was on an Amtrak train pulled by an HHP8 on Easter weekend. The train had a scheduled stop in Aberdeen, Maryland. The train overshot the station, backed up a few car lengths, and stopped to receive passengers.
I was in the Alexandria VA station when a southbound Amtrak train overran the platform by such a distance that it entered the next block and the boarding passengers had to walk along the ROW to get to the train.
I was waiting for a LIRR diesel train at Medford one morning. It had an Alco power pack up front and a SW1500 at the rear. The train overshot the station, which was only about one and a half car lengths long, so the train had to back up and everyone climed into the last car. Thankfully, no one got mad. We were all too sleepy. lol
Metro-North, especially in the fall when the leaves come off the trees.
Isn't the rule that for a train to back up, if the T/O doesn't switch ends, the C/R or another member of the train crew has to be in the last car and in communication with the T/O? That may be why the NYC subway's don't back up!
I have been on a train that back up one time. And it was a NYC Subway train that back up that the train was on the wrong side at 71 Ave on a Close Phatformand the T/O back up the train a little bit then shitch tracks to the other side and ran on that track. This was doing a G.O. at the time that all trains ran on the Queens Bound Side from 71 Ave to Rossevelt Ave.
I was on Metro North once at Fairfield going to NYC when the train overshot the station, he just backed up into the station. He only overshot by 1 1/2 cars.
Is it possible to back up a train from the front cab? Doesn't someone need to operate the rear cab in order to back up the train?
- Lyle Goldman
Reverser key ... the only impediment in NYC is policy and charging up time.
I've seen it on the LIRR.
One does not back up a NYC subway train. Once the operator throws the reverser from foward to reverse, it is considered "Other Than Head-Car Operation". In order to operate other than head car (as covered under rule 36L):
A) There must be a qualified 'flagman' at the front of the train.
B) The flagman and the operator must have positive communications. If the communication is lost the operator must stop immediately.
C) During such operation, the train may go no faster than 10 miles per hour.
D) If there are passengers aboard a train being operated via this method, they must be discharged at the first station. LIRR has similar rules.
A very reasonable set of precautions!
Bombardier to supply people movers for Hartsfield
Bombardier has been rewarded the contract to to replace the oldest Westinghouse cars on Hartsfield's people mover system. Westinghouse was bought by Adtranz, which in turn was bought by Bombardier, so I'm not expecting any big changes to the new cars. The first ones will be delivered by next month, that's fast.
The last car order made by Hartsfield was from CEM, I think, anyone know what's going on with CEM?.
What does CEM stand for?
The Hartsfield system is very nice. Passenger-friendly, efficient, clean. The cars do occasionally over or undershoot the exit doorways by up to several inches. What system currently lines up the cars? Does anyone know?
I have no clue what CEM stands or or who they are. I've never even heard of CEM before I saw it on the builder's plate in one of the cars. The Tampa airport pictures on this site look the same as the CEMs in Atlanta.
The trains occansionally overshoot by as much as one door panel. I know that the whole train/track/computer control system was a whole "package" developed by Westinghouse back when the system was first installed in the 70s, they probably upgraded it since then. I don't know for sure.
Here's another mystery car from the www.nycrail.com website. It's obviously some sort of work car, but I have no idea what it is or what it does. It is listed on the website under "Museum Cars." Does anyone know what museum it's owned by?
http://www.nycrail.com/images/ciy_rodeo_4_7_01/museum6.jpg
One of two things come to mind even though I'm not that familiar with these old pieces of work equipment. It's either an old Rubbish Collection Car, or might be an old Signal Dolly used to deliver materials to various points in the system.
-Stef
Geez look at that monster!! LOL. I have never seen that before. But the 'Money Train' is next to it.
Well I can't tell you what type of car it is. But I can tell you that the pic was taken in Coney Island Yard.
What's that arch shaped assembly on the front for ya s'pose?
Looks like it might hinge down... but for what?
Battering ram?
Picking up mail bags?
That's the original signal dolly. It is reputed to have the same controller as the BMT Standard. The BMT Standard's controller is unique because the motormans indication is built in instead of being separate.
Bill "Newkirk"
on the cars with ato will there be cross cabs?
Are any cabs needed in this case?
"cross cabs?"
You mean as opposed to mild-mannered, happy cabs? :0)
They might be, but it is not needed. CCTV technology allows OPTO/ATO operation from a 1/2 cab.
Yes, you will always need an operator.
CCTV technology, in theory, allows OPTO operation from somewhere other than the train itself. No need to waste valuable space on cabs when all the T/O's can be sitting comfortably in downtown Brooklyn.
Which makes sense if they're only going to be supervisors, they can supervise multiple trains at once.
I'm not sure if that's a great idea. But space inside trains is more valuable than space in an office building in Brooklyn. If the T/O's were all moved to an office building in Brooklyn, there would be no need for cabs on trains. (Yes, railfans, your window is back.)
I'm officially going to retire my handle (BMTJeff)that I've used since December of 1999 in honor of the new "W" train which runs on the ex BMT West End Line. I've decided to do that because the ex BMT West End Line train now runs on the former BMT Broadway line in Manhattan once it crosses the Manhattan Bridge rather than the IND 6th Avenue line. I'm also happy that the "Q" train (formerly #1 Brighton Line) is also running on the ex-BMT Broadway line in Manhattan. Now if they could only run the "N" train (formerly #4 Sea Beach Line) on the Manhattan Bridge. Then another BMT Line train can be restored to its former stature. THE BMT LIVES!!!!!
BMTJeff
So what will be your new handle?
Careful, "W" is reserved for President BuSh in case he wants to be a SubTalker.
Dubya? If that happens, I'm outta here.
Tell the T/A to change the "W" train to the "T" train. It would sound better.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I hear your buddy Al Gore has put on over 25 pounds since the election. That is just swell. He now not only acts like a pig, he looks like one, too. He will never see the Presidency.
That's too bad. Unless he manages to slim down in time for the 2004 presidential election he might not get elected much less nominated.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
WHO THE HELL CARES HOW MUCH HE WEIGHS?
I'm sorry, but fattiness is not any qualification or disqualification into the office of the presidency.
Well, maybe in a world that elects W.
I'm sure that many people don't care how much Al Gore weighs but, it may not necessarily help him any if he is noticeably overweight.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I doubt if we'll see Georgie Porgie on this bulletin board.
They should have called the new "W" train by its former designation the "T".
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I like W, it stands for West End, the name the BMT used. The Triplexes were used very little on the line.
They actually ended their careers on the West End. Prematurely. July 23 will mark 36 years since they rode off into the sunset.
I AGREE!!!
My new handle is #3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Go Jeff!!!! Sorry Bob. But you still have the Q. But the D is a dead as a doornail on the Brighton Line.
I'm posting this message to check if my new handle works.
#3 West End Jeff
I'll still think of it as the "T" no matter what they call it :-)
I wish they did use the "T" designation. It sounds better than the "W" train.
#3 West End Jeff
Oh, W has the problem in that people will confuse it with the UU train, the local version of the U train. :-)
I loathe to think of a WW train.
I think they should have had T and U on the rollsigns. Q and U would make sense together.
Much as I think the TA was right to move away from double letters, it might not have been a bad idea to run the Q (express) and QQ (local) rather than distinguishing the two by shape.
And appearance wise, W is like VV. (will it be the local version of the new Queens-6th Av local?
I had been suggesting in writing for years the T and U as replacements of the B and D in Brooklyn (or use the W in place of U.) But as long as they got rid of the split B & D, I'm happy.
Ditto here. I saw a T train once or twice, but never rode on one.
I think the (R) should be the one to go on the Bridge. Since it makes LOCAL Stops in Brooklyn. After all it saves time for the (R).
Remember during the Willy B rehab, and the 63st shuttle? The signage was in inverted colors (white with black stripe and lettering) to denote the fact that it was temporary. The Manny B signs aren't.
And the 63st line already has signs in the permanent scheme denoting the (S) 63rd st shuttle to B'wy Lafayette. It gives the impression of being a 24/7 line.
For the TA 3 years is permanent. But anything can hapen between now and 2004.
While the signage looks permanent, they simply riveted a front panel to the front of the existing signs. True to form, I alreay found errors:
At DeKalb(Brighton) the sign says change at 34/Broadway for the Bronx Diamond Q.
And the 63st line already has signs in the permanent scheme denoting the (S) 63rd st shuttle to B'wy Lafayette. It gives the impression of being a 24/7 line
And that impression is correct - the 6th Ave Shuttle will indeed run 24/7.
My copy of the Manhattan Bridge Service Changes brochure begs to differ. From the inside front cover:
New Sixth Avenue (S) Shuttle
Runs weekdays between 21 St-Queensbridge and Bdwy-Lafayette St. This shuttle, and the (F), serve Sixth Avenue local stations.
The 6th Avenue Shuttle is scheduled to run 24 hours a day. The TA has assigned crews on the line for all three tours.
The only exception is when F trains are rerouted via 63rd Street due to a GO.
Or R trains, I take it, like on August 22 itself. Or will Queensbridge be served by two lines at those times?
I guess F and R reroutes won't be as common now as they've been since January, when all night and weekend service was by GO.
So then, 21st Queensbridge-57/6 will all be closed nights and weekends? This includes Roosevelt Island, which is actually not that quiet.
No. Look at any current map (i.e., showing today's service patterns, not next week's). The current Q -- a weekday-only service -- is the only regular service to Queensbridge. At all other times, Queensbridge is served whichever line is rerouted there -- usually the F or the R.
Originally that was to continue next week, with night and weekend service by GO. Apparently that's changed.
I didn't think of that. So the S may not get much non-weekday service for it's entire life to November.
I went into the 34-W4th street dash twice in each direction on a Q today. On my way I saw new signs at Queensboro Plaza for the W. The rides through the dash were great. The first Q train I took had an air leak in the front door making this whining sound, like a baby crying. The Q will sure miss the dash. Also went across the northside several times as well. It sure looks in bad shape.
Also saw new Q signs at Dekalb as well. The new maps are in most subway cars and stations, but at Grand street they are STILL HANDING OUT THE OLD ONE!! Also no new maps to take anywhere, checked out transit store at GCT as well. They should have the new maps out already,
Well at least they are giving out pamphlets there (at Grand). I got another one on the D train, the C/R walked through the whole car and gave them out. Also there were announcements on the trains about the switch as well.
I still feel sad the 6th ave dash is closing. Yeah I had fond memories of it. I used to take it all the time (B,D,Q) from Grand to 34th-6th for the now defunct Manhattan Mall Flamers place. I had good times in there. So I feel a little sad. Well hopefully it'll be back in three years, if the workers don't clown around on the job like last time.
I also rode a Redbird 4 Brooklyn bound to Atlantic. Those Joralemon tubes are pretty damn fast. It seems there's less timers Brooklyn bound than Manhattan bound for some reason, the Redbird flew through there. Also the redbirds have this unique motor sound when they go fast no other trains have. It's like a low pitched whine.
Remember my very last trip on the Q will be from 21st-Queensbridge at 3pm on Friday, from the west end of the westbound platform,that is T1 track.
>>Also no new maps to take anywhere, checked out transit store at GCT as well. <<
Yesterday, when I asked at the Information booth at GCT, the guy gave me a January 2001 Multi-lingual. Based on past experiences I'll bet that the new maps will not be out until after 7/22.
At the customer information center on the ground floor of 370 Jay St.,they have the new July maps, ut in the Multi-Lingual version only.
A plea for information:
On July 11, there was a response posted by "Engine Brake" regarding the thread entitled "Looking for Strange Redbirds." 7875 was mentioned as being in storage at Concourse.
I have not come across this pair otherwise and have yet to learn which cars are located at Concourse.
Does anyone know which Redbirds are stored at Concourse Yard?
Many thanks and Best Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I probably have a list somewhere under 75 or 80 pounds of paper on my desk. I'll try to post the list tomorrow - time permitting.
Great!
Thanks much!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I've had my 1995 Saturn SL2 (84,000 miles when purchased -- 87,000 now) only about three months since I purchased it from Saturn of Chicago, and so far I've come across the following problems:
1) Three oil leaks, one at the valve cover seal, one at the oil pan seal, and another at the oil pressure sensor.
2) Most ominously, a large cloud of blueish smoke from the tailpipe whenever I hit the gas from a dead stop after the car is warmed up. A trusted gearhead friend of mine says this is a sure sign of bad piston rings. The only way to repair bad piston rings is to totally rebuild the engine.
Between the two causes above, I'm losing about two quarts of oil per week on this thing! I don't know how much is dripping to the ground and how much is going up in smoke, but this amount of oil consumption has been going on since I bought the car. Other problems:
3) A strange clatter sound whenever I hit the gas from a dead stop, which seems to be related to the smoke cloud. The bigger the clatter, the bigger the cloud.
4) A broken parking brake cable. Thank God I live in Chicago and not San Francisco.
5) A missing air dam from below the front end of the car.
6) Occasional sputtering and stalling in heavy stop-and-go traffic.
7) A bad oxygen sensor (since replaced)
8) Tires that lose air due to corrosion in the insides of the wheel rims.
And that's not even counting the stuff that one would normally expect in a used car, like worn spark plugs, brittle hoses, inoperable cruise control, and some minor cosmetic blemishes. Either this car was a dud to begin with, or some previous owner abused the hell out of it.
I bought the car "as-is" with no warranty. However, on the same window sticker that says the car was bought as-is, there is also a section that says every used car Saturn sells has been thouroughly inspected and that the buyer will be informed of any outstanding maintenance issues. It also says every "Inspected" car has at least a 90-day limited powertrain warranty. This window sticker is a legal document, part of the sales contract.
Also, because of the smoke cloud, I would be shocked if this car passed the state emissions test. As far as I know, it is illegal in Illinois for a dealer to sell a car that won't pass emissions.
I've taken the car to the dealer and they told me the problems were either my fault because I accidentally left the oil cap off, or that they couldn't reproduce the problem. Their response was essentially, "You bought the car as-is. Deal with it."
I've already contacted an attorney that specializes in consumer law and Lemon Law issues. I'll probably find out within the next few days whether or not I have a valid case against the dealer.
I certainly didn't expect a car in my price range to be flawless (I paid $5000 for this thing), but I at least expect the engine to be in somewhat-decent working order and certainly not to need to be overhauled. Am I being unreasonable here? What sort of recourse do I have, if any? I should point out that my car is now a crucial neccessity: My new job involves driving around to various suburbs near O'Hare to inspect the soundproofing of houses.
Anybody have any comments about this or about the symptoms I've listed? Assuming the piston rings are shot and I have no legal recourse, how much longer should this car last as long as I keep dumping oil into it? Sorry for the off-topic post, but I figure there's at least a couple of car experts here who could offer some advice.
The whole reason I picked Saturn was because of their supposed relaibility and because their dealerships supposedly have some shred of ethics. So much for being A Different Kind of Company... I think my next car will be a Toyota.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, if you're interested in anything transit related, in Houston, we're selling RTS buses for about 4,000 dollars. Of course, they're between the ages of 18 and 20, they have one million miles or more, and you need a CDL to operate them, but hey, they still run. Besdies, you'd be the talk of the office showing up in one of those beauties.
Seriously though, sorry about your Saturn. I never liked the damn things myself. Next time, try a Chevy Impala. GREAT looking car, pretty cheap too, in the 16-19 thousand range.
Well, if you're interested in anything transit related, in Houston, we're selling RTS buses for about 4,000 dollars. Of course, they're between the ages of 18 and 20, they have one million miles or more, and you need a CDL to operate them, but hey, they still run. Besdies, you'd be the talk of the office showing up in one of those beauties.
And I'm sure street parking in Chicago would be no problem whatsoever. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Just park it at any bus stop.
And Paint the bus in cta colors.
Sympathies on the Saturn ... we have an SL2 from that vintage and it's been a delight ... reliable as hell too. It does sound like someone screwed it up. Dunno if I'd buy one now - when the car was MADE, the folks who built them still had some independence and were happy. Subsequently, GM came in and turned it into another Oldsmobuichevrolac division and morale slid. Still, you should have some recourse if the dealer can't prove they gave you paper outlining the details.
And as to the BUS ... well ... let's be real, you can pretty much park those anywhere you want. Those tiny little towtrucks ain't gonna haul one of those away easily. And if you were turn it into a Bluesmobus, you could probably take out what's left of Lower Whacker. Heh.
Sympathies on the Saturn ... we have an SL2 from that vintage and it's been a delight ... reliable as hell too. It does sound like someone screwed it up. Dunno if I'd buy one now - when the car was MADE, the folks who built them still had some independence and were happy. Subsequently, GM came in and turned it into another Oldsmobuichevrolac division and morale slid. Still, you should have some recourse if the dealer can't prove they gave you paper outlining the details.
It's been hinted that GM may decide to send Saturn out to the pasture along with Oldsmobile. Sales are so slow, according to a recent item in (IIRC) the Wall Street Journal, that the main plant in Tennessee is operating at less than 50% capacity. GM's contract with the UAW has an airtight no-layoff clause, so many of the workers at the plant spend their shifts doing nothing. Most of the models haven't been redesigned in over a decade, and the much-hyped larger LS model is just a reskinned Opel from Germany, built at a creaky old plant in Delaware (and its sales are just as poor as the other models').
I suspect that Saturn's survival will depend in large part on the sales performance of the forthcoming SUV model. SUV sales are still strong, but it's a very crowded marketplace.*
* = Toyota surely must be the champion when it comes to the number of SUV models ... it has five sold under its own nameplate (RAV4, Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia, and Land Cruiser) plus two Lexus models.
It's been hinted that GM may decide to send Saturn out to the pasture along with Oldsmobile.
[snip]
the much-hyped larger LS model is just a reskinned Opel from Germany, built at a creaky old plant in Delaware (and its sales are just as poor as the other models').
Well I can certainly vouch for the quality in the L series. We bought our first-ever new car from Saturn of Long Island City back in January. A nice dark-red L-300, loaded with everything but leather. Fast enough to set off Quebec Provincial Police radar traps (as I found out last month!) and powerful enough to haul the lumbering bulk of your humble scribe about these-here five boroughs with nary a care.
It's a beauty and our pride and joy, but, that said, the dealers are certainly not that different from anybody else out there. What's worse, you can't dicker the price down...you pay the same as the next schmuck who walks in the front door.
I think their way of doing business was a nice gimmick when first introduced last decade, but the novelty has since worn off and people are starting to see a very naked emporer riding north from Springhill.
I hope they find a way to survive because the vehicles themselves are still pretty nice, but please spare us the "different kind of company" marketroid-spew. I agree with the new Impala being well-worthwhile--in retrospect, I should have looked a lot closer at both it and the Subaru I'd been lusting after for a couple of years.
As to your SL2, the dealer who sold this thing to you is a lying, scheming scuzzbucket who should have something very unpleasant done to him with a rusty garden weasel. Your description of the oil consumption and blue-smoke problems are a classic case of piston rings gone south, allowing engine oil from below to seep past them into the combustion chamber above. As my dear friend, Zathras might say: "Not Good--Malfunction."
Athough you probably won't need a complete rebuild (just the top-end), it'll likely cost you about half of what you paid for the wreck in the first place. They say there's a 90-day powertrain warranty? Use it! I believe you said you've contacted an attorney as well...methinks that once Larson E. Pettifogger knocks on their door, you'll see a Different Kind Of Dealership Attitude from Saturn of Chicago!
Good Luck!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
"Most of the models haven't been redesigned in over a decade..."
actually the SL was completely redesigned in '96 and the SC the following year.
I know someone who is currently laid off from the Wilmington,DE plant where they build the LS and he says they're asking too much for them.
Most of the models haven't been redesigned in over a decade...
actually the SL was completely redesigned in '96 and the SC the following year.
I know someone who is currently laid off from the Wilmington,DE plant where they build the LS and he says they're asking too much for them.
The changes made in 1996 and 1997 were significant, but not full redesigns. The basic body platforms are still the same as when the models first came out. That's not necessarily bad, but it does tend to show a lack of initiative.
Incidentially, the Wilmington plant, unlike the main plant in Tennessee, does not have a no-layoff contract with the UAW, hence your friend's plight.
The problem is that when Saturn launched 10 years ago, they were innovative, and their pricing policy was great. GM aknowledged they were part of the team. Now, the cars aren't as innovative, and a Cavalier or Sunfire can be had for less with better standard equipment. When I ws looking for my first car, I went to Saturn, but for more than the cost of the Sunfire I wound up buying (and quickly replacing) I still would have to pay extra for ABS and A/C.
-Hank
sunfire is a sweet car. performance is so good. so fast so stylish. my aunt in phily is going to give me hers. she is going for a grand am gt. what was your problem with the sunfire?
Commercial van driver with poor skills.
-Hank
ouch!!! so that did some damage! well it is fixible but, based on the damage given, i would say there is damgage to the wheel well, the cv joints making it expensive to fix after including the fender, bumper, paint, labor, and dammaged armlinks in the wheelbase.
Nope, not fixable. $10k in damage. You don't see the frame. The estimate listed the entire right-side suspension, left side steering knuckle, both driveshafts, two front wheels, one tire, two airbags, windsheild, right fender, dash, hood, bumper, paint and 'labor' for the left fender, left front door, both right doors, and a frame member called a suspension cradle. Also would have needed to clean the ventilation system from the glass bits and talc from the airbags. Car sells for around $15k. NYS law says that if damage exceeds 75% of the resale value, it gets a salvage title. Even if it were fixable, the body shop said it's not worth it, as there is likely internal damage to the transaxle that would go undetected until it started to fail.
-Hank
Nope, not fixable. $10k in damage. You don't see the frame. The estimate listed the entire right-side suspension, left side steering knuckle, both driveshafts, two front wheels, one tire, two airbags, windsheild, right fender, dash, hood, bumper, paint and 'labor' for the left fender, left front door, both right doors, and a frame member called a suspension cradle. Also would have needed to clean the ventilation system from the glass bits and talc from the airbags. Car sells for around $15k. NYS law says that if damage exceeds 75% of the resale value, it gets a salvage title. Even if it were fixable, the body shop said it's not worth it, as there is likely internal damage to the transaxle that would go undetected until it started to fail.
Er, I think I'm missing something ... $10,000 of damage on a vehicle worth $15,000 is only 66.6% ... below the 75% salvage title threshhold. I know it's too late now, but you probably could have negotiated with the insurance company to get the car repaired. But then, you can hardly expect "service" out of an insurance company.
It wasn't worth 15k with 15k miles on it in 8 months. And again, the body shop said I'd be better off not fixing it. If the guy who would make a buck off it is telling me he doesn't think it's a good idea, thats some advice I'm taking.
-Hank
it blew the passenger airbag also? damn! thats gonna be expensive then. your talking about 3 grand. or more.
Passenger bag is why the windsheild is shattered. Oddly, neither of us came close to the bags when they went off, since the seatbelts restrained us and were were hit at an acute angle by a vehicle traveling in the same direction.
-Hank
Passenger bag is why the windshield is shattered.
Interesting... same thing happened to my daughter in her '93 Sable back in May. The airbags caused more damage than the impact itself. On the other hand, the passenger airbag may have helped her housemate escape more serious injury, so I'm glad they deployed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems in most cars, the airbag takes advantage of the windshield by design, deflecting the bag more directly towards the passenger.
-Hank
" the LS is a reskinned opel from germany". of course it is. also like the LS, the Saab 95 is a reskinned Opel Vectra, but sheet metal was redesigned and refined to give it the saab identity. that is the gift of GM. even though the many cars are based on the same platforms, they don't feel or look or drive the same. but you think that is bad? the Lexus ES300 is a reskinned Toyota Camry, so is its crappy RX300 SUV, their boring but luxurious Highlander. the RAV4 is based on the Corolla. the Infiniti G20 is based on the Nissan Sentra. the New Kia Optima (i praise this car) is a reskinned Hyundai Sonata. the Mitsubishi Eclipse is a reskinned Dodge Stratus/Chrysler sebring. i can keep going and going. out of the imports i just mentioned, only Chrysler and Toyota have an identity crisis because all their cars perform the same or look similar than usual.
You're a little mixed up. The Eclipse is NOT related to hte Stratus/Sebring, hover the old Eagle Talon was a rebadged Eclipse. The G20 is based on the Altima, not the Sentra; the RAV4 is new platform unrelated to the Corolla.
You wanna talk pure badge enginering, look at the old Chrysler K cars and the Chysler LeBaron/Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Grand Fury of the 80s, and the current Isuzu Trooper/Honda Passport and former Isuzu minivan/Honda Odyssey. Even the original Dodge Caravan was based on the K-car. The minivans only got their own platform with the generation before the current one. I'm smile when the next series of MeBes come on the Dodge Intrepid's platform.
-Hank
You wanna talk pure badge enginering, look at the old Chrysler K cars and the Chysler LeBaron/Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Grand Fury of the 80s, and the current Isuzu Trooper/Honda Passport and former Isuzu minivan/Honda Odyssey.
Actually Isuzu Rodeo/Honda Passport. The Trooper shared its platform with an Acura SUV model, I can't remember its name or number, that was cancelled a couple years ago. The Rodeo/Passport platform is the same as that of the Chevy TrailBlazer/GMC Envoy, although there are so many sheet metal and mechanical differences that any similarlities are well-hidden.
also the mazda tribute and the ford escape are the same car also.
the G20 is based on the Sentra.the G20 uses a sentra engine, chassis, the whole frame. it was never from the Altima because it came out before it. the Altima came from another car origined in japan under nissan. the RAV4 is based on the corolla, the Eclipse is based on the Sebring/Stratus. the Eclipse and sebring/stratus are made out of the same plant. go do a little research and you will see that these cars are the same. at one time, when the eclipse came out in 95 with the egg shaped re-design, their base model rs was using a modified standard engine that was used in the Dodge Neon.
the eclipse came out in 95 with the egg shaped re-design, their base model rs was using a modified standard engine that was used in the Dodge Neon.
We have a 1995 Neon, although it's not currently being used, and my wife has a 2001 Eclipse GT. Let me tell you, comparing the Neon's engine to the Eclipse's is like comparing an R68 Hippo to a French TGV!
The company was part of GM to start with and was and still is funded by GM to some degree.
Yep ... but int he beginning, they were VERY independent of Detroit. Even the UAW thought it was a great place ... then the wigs from Michigan blew in and it went straight to hell ...
"GM came in and turned into anothor Oldmobuicheverolac." it was a GM company since scratch. by the way, as Oldmobile fades away, Opel, GM's german division is planning debut in the U.S. in 2004. one of the planned released models is their sporty Astra coup.
Are you serious? $4000 for an RTS bus? What model years? This is a hot deal! I could use it to move my stuff to college. What kind of top speed would these buses have on the highway? Can they do 65mph?
Yeah, I'm serious. A top Metro manager told me that they wouldn't put wheelchair lifts in the bus because the wheelchair lift would be worth more than the bus. I'd be surprised if they were worth more than 6,000 dollars. They were run into the ground.
We have model years 1981-83. Some can do 65mph. Those may have been stripped though. 2153 was one of them but I think she just got her stripes removed. If you want I'll check into it for you.
Oh no, are you going to try to park it in the circular driveway? I think you'll take out the rock garden in the process.
Well, if you're interested in anything transit related, in Houston, we're selling RTS buses for about 4,000 dollars. Of course, they're between the ages of 18 and 20, they have one million miles or more, and you need a CDL to operate them, but hey, they still run. Besdies, you'd be the talk of the office showing up in one of those beauties.
Would you need a CDL to operate one if you did so for personal use only? CDL's aren't needed to operate motor homes, and I've see some pretty monstrous ones.
Nope. CDLs are necessary only if you intend to make money driving the thing. Likewise, you don't need a CDL or any special training to drive the largest vehicle U-haul can rent.
-Hank
In New Jersey is it illegal to sell a Used Car "As Is". I think they have to include a 30 day warrenty.
In New Jersey is it illegal to sell a Used Car "As Is". I think they have to include a 30 day warrenty.
Wrong. Vehicles in New Jersey may be offered for sale "as is" - I bought a 1993 Mercury Sable that way three years ago. It turned out to be an excellent car, by the way, until its unfortunate demise in an accident this past May.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well that's what a son of a big time used car dealer told me.
Well that's what a son of a big time used car dealer told me.
Would you believe what the son of a big time politician tells you?
Actual conversation heard recently:
Drew: You lied to me!!!
Brant: I'm paid to lie...I'm a broker.
Well during my parents time buying pre-owned cars a little bit back when I was at the dealerships I didn't see any thing with an As Is tag.
At Echelon Ford in Stratford, every car below a certain price (everything in my range) is "as is", without a tag identifying it as such. There's not enough markup to cover warranty repairs.
As-is or not, state lemon laws may cover you. Especially if the vehicle displays undisclosed issues.
-Hank
I bought my '91 Grand Prix (You rode in it, Mike) "as is" for $3000 with 107K miles on it in August, 1999. Three weeks later I got the title from Trenton and it's a "salvage" title. I've spent $650 on 2 repairs and it now has 153K miles. Runs great, gets 28 mpg driving to work (99 miles round trip).
If you don't get anywhere with the dealer, try contacting the Saturn company itself. They make a big deal out of customer service and quality control, and just might be willing to help you out even if the dealer won't. There are no guarantees, of course, but it might be worth trying.
The whole reason I picked Saturn was because of their supposed relaibility and because their dealerships supposedly have some shred of ethics. So much for being A Different Kind of Company... I think my next car will be a Toyota.
One of the fellows who works for me purchased a Saturn recently because he had a similar miserable experience - with a Toyota. It goes both ways.
As for me, my next car will be a Ford... just like the four in our family fleet now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
$5k down the tubes on a very used Saturn. Next time buy used Toyota. They run forever. My '90 Camry (bought new) has 75k miles on it, runs great, the a/c still works, and only needs a new starter.
Corrosion on the wheel rims is a new one, I've never heard of that happening to a car, sounds like the remnants of serious water damage. You might have been unlucky enough to buy a car damaged in a hurricane or tornado. You'd think the a legitimate saturn dealer would reject a car like yours, 'as-is' or not. GM hard at work building customer loyalty.
Check the title. If it was heavily water-damaged in a flood it would have been totalled by the insurance company and should have a salvage title. In many states, if the dealer didn't disclose that he was selling a salvage vehicle, you may have some legal remedies.
CG
I had a 1987 Nissan Maxima until it was damaged in a relatively minor accident in March. It didn't make sense to repair.
Apart from a few problems that are unavoidable due to age, it worked beautifully and would have lasted another couple of years.
And I liked driving it better than the Acura, no turbo lag.
Of course, Nissan has gone down in the past 14 years. I think it's owned by Renault now.
Oddly, Nissan and Honda are the only Japanese auto builders that an American automaker doesn't have a large stake in.
Ford owns large part of Mazda
Daimler-Chrysler, through Chyrsler, has a large part of Mitsubishi.
GM has a chunk of Isuzu, and a working relationship with Toyota, which sells rebadged Cavaliers in Japan as Toyotas (And GM sold rebadged Corollas as the 'Geo Prizm'.)
-Hank
Oddly, Nissan and Honda are the only Japanese auto builders that an American automaker doesn't have a large stake in ... GM has a chunk of Isuzu
49%, in fact. GM is letting Isuzu handle the development of the next-generation small pickup truck that is sold as the Chevy S-10. On the other hand, the next generation Isuzu Rodeo, which will come out for the 2004 model year,* will no longer be built on the same platform as the Chevy TrailBlazer.
* =Good timing. My lease on a 2000 Rodeo will be up just as the restyled 2004's hit the market, and therefore I won't be stuck driving "yesterday's" design.
Nissan is now partly owned by Renault. But - the good news is that the engine designs come from Japan - not France. Nissan quality remains every bit as good today as Toyota and Honda. ?P?The Renault people simply play with the money - not the machine. ?P?And speaking of Nissan - I had to retire my ?86 Sentra a couple of years ago due to rust. The original motor was still in her and she burned not a drop of oil. Mileage on the odometer - 370,000 - not a typo - three hundred - seventy thousand on the original engine. So next time - think about a Sentra for something small, reliable and economical.
Our 1987 Camry, which we bought new, is in mint condition and works very well without any problems. We expect to get a few more years out of it given its condition. A good quality car will last a very long time if you do the routine maintainance and look after it.
As for GM, suffice it to say that the Camry replaced a Chevrolet Citation II. How we managed to keep that car running into 1987 is beyond me.
-Robert King
$5k down the tubes on a very used Saturn. Next time buy a used Toyota Camry or Corrolla. They run forever. My '90 Camry (bought new) has 75k miles on it, runs great, the a/c still works, and only needs a new starter.
Corrosion on the wheel rims is a new one, I've never heard of that happening to a car, sounds like the remnants of serious water damage. You might have been unlucky enough to buy a car damaged in a hurricane or tornado. You'd think the a legitimate saturn dealer would reject a car like yours, 'as-is' or not. GM hard at work building customer loyalty.
Saturn's quality level took a downturn when the company stopped making everything exclusivly at their Tennessee plant and started building some of the cars in Canada, and basically treating the division no different from Chevrolet, Pontiac, etc. However, since your car was bought used and is from 1995, I would assume it's from the original plant and is either a vicitm of someone who treated it like crap so that by the time it hit 87,000 miles it wasn't worth a damn anymore, or if the dealer is underhanded, that the odometer may have been rolled back.
If that's the case, there may be a way to trace the car's actual history using the VIN number at the front of the dashboard to see if it's been subject to any major repairs, accidents, or other things the dealier failed to notify you about. Then you've got a legitimate court case.
They are. As far as I know, they're building the American and Japanese S-series at their Tennessee plant and the L-series at the new Delaware plane.
They are? As far as I know, they're building the American and Japanese S-series at their Tennessee plant and the L-series at the new Delaware plane.
It's hard to believe. I have a 1996 SL2 bought new. They redesigned the SLs and SWs for 1996 but the engines have remained the same since the 1991 introduction of the company. We rolled up 30,000 miles the first year on it. No problems with it. We've only needed 2 tires and a rear left steering knuckle, and a battery replaces on it. It's at 58,000 miles right now. I think they need some quality control at that dealership. The one I went to was great. You should contact the company itself to let them know.
I just sold my 1992 SL-1 with 60,000 miles on it. I had originally bought it new - for about the first 5 years it had no problems then over the remaining time I owned it, it needed the following:
1) Motor mounts needed replacing
2) Drivers side power window motor replaced
3) Alternator replaced twice
4) Power door motors replaced
5) Windshield washer hoses replaced
6) Radiator hoses replaced - the hose burst on me while heading home from Atlantic City - found out the hard way that the service areas on the GSP dont carry parts.
I just bought a Hyundai Sonata V6 - why - more comfort and power for the money. I was never quite happy with the hp on the Saturn - and I also found the seats too low.
I guess I've been lucky, or maybe Hondas are just more reliable than average.
On my 1994 Honda Civic EX, at 91,000 miles and change now, the only major repairs I've needed have been on the brakes. (I spent about $1000 last week on new pads and new rotors, as well as three new tires and NYS inspection.) Otherwise, just about everything's been routine: tires every few years, the timing belt at 90,000, and the muffler. (When the initial muffler failed, I made the mistake of buying a generic one. Just under a year later, when it looked like it was about to go, I had it replaced under warranty. Just over a year later, it fell off on the Mass Pike. I'm now back with a Honda muffler, although I paid a lot for the privilege since I was stuck in Boston and couldn't shop around.) It could use a bit of body work -- the (metallic) paint on the rear (plastic) bumper is beginning to rust.
This car has spent most of its life in snowy territory (Ithaca and Champaign-Urbana) and has been exposed to both very long drives (between Illinois and New York) and very short drives (alternate side).
(I was never quite happy with the hp on the Saturn - and I also found the seats too low.)
My Saturn is four years old, with no problems. I just hope it doesn't fall apart after six, like yours did. I'm hoping for lots of years of cheap driving with no comprehensive insurance.
( 2) Drivers side power window motor replaced 4) Power door motors replaced)
I tried to avoid power anything -- just more stuff to break. I hope my car lasts long enough that my next one (if any) is powered by a fuel cell.
I actually saw my first Insight on the road today...It's small compared to my Sunfire, a sub-compact to begin with!
-Hank
you must have had bad luck. my cousin has a 1991 saturn sl2, bought it used and not one problem even at 110,000 miles. she had the breaks replaced and that was all. power everything still works. my old highschool teacher has a 1994 and hasn't had a problem since.
of course you wouldn't be happy with the horse power. even though it gives more pep than its competetors, it is a compact car. most compact cars don't come with 6 cylinder engines or high powered 4 cyl.
ok for starters you bought the saturn, 1995 used at 84,000 miles. the car gives you a hole list of problems. it is common sense that the car was owned by a person who beat it up during their use of it. so you basically bought a car from a person who puts them in bad condition. if you bought it new, you wouldn't have a problem now. as far as going to toyota, good luck. all i can say is with toyota, you aren't gonna get your money's worth. they come with nothing in them at a high price, they aren't as reliable as they used to be (honda is becoming the same way), their warranty is obsolete(up to this day, they don't offer roadside assistance),and nowadays any american car can keep up with them. even beat them. choose your next car wisely. not by reliability because nowadays any car you get import or not, lemon is possible
ok for starters you bought the saturn, 1995 used at 84,000 miles. the car gives you a hole list of problems. it is common sense that the car was owned by a person who beat it up during their use of it.
And yet it was a fairly low-mileage vehicle. 84,000 miles in six years (almost seven) is on the low side.
yeah but still anything can happen in between that time and with the person who owned it. my mother had bought a toyota corolla 95 with the same amount of mileage. the car lasted only 1 year. 89,000 miles.it failed. she took care of it with oil changes and everything. the car died slowly and was considered junk. bought a 99 Kia Sephia and hadn't had a problem since. after two years the only thing we had to correct on the car was the wheel alignment.
Let's hope your granny doesn't hit anything. Kias flunk crash tests miserably. If you crash hard enough to pin your legs in the car, emergency workers won't have to cut the doors off to get at you; the hinges failed already.
-Hank
Let's hope your granny doesn't hit anything. Kias flunk crash tests miserably. If you crash hard enough to pin your legs in the car, emergency workers won't have to cut the doors off to get at you; the hinges failed already.
Maybe the Kia car models are flimsy, but I've heard that the Sportages are tough little beasts indeed.
yes they are. they are rock climbers. the sportage is not car based. it is truck based. latterbox frame. which means it is one of the few mini suv's that can really clim a rock or do off roading.
yes they are. [Kia Sportages as tough little beasts] they are rock climbers. the sportage is not car based. it is truck based. latterbox frame. which means it is one of the few mini suv's that can really clim a rock or do off roading.
You're right, I think the only other small SUV model with a truck frame is the Suzuki Vitara. They're quite a bit more expensive than the Sportages, however. Kia just came out with a minivan, the Sedona, which is by a considerable margin the least expensive vehicle of its type.
"lets hope your granny doesn't hit anything Kia's flunk crash tests miserably"
its not my granny who owns it, its my mother. technically you would be right if this was 1997. Kia Sephias 1998-2001, even though below par with its competetors because of high injury rate in the crash, crash safety has improved from poor to marginal. crashtest.com gave it an above average crash rate of 5 and 4 stars for the side impact for both passenger and driver and 3 and 4 for frontal impact. eventhough suffering poor offset, the frame absorbed the impact well and would be considered rebuildable. so, she has no worries. and basically, she doesn't care about crash test anyway because what ever the accident that happens, no matter how safe the car is, injuries will be severe or fatal. ratings and dummies aren't that accurate.
Next time use carfax.com
I did, and the car's title history was clean. But that only means it wasn't flooded (I've owned a previously-flooded car before, and the warning signs are hard to miss) nor totalled in a wreck and rebuilt. But CarFax won't tell you the complete maintenance history of the car, nor will it tell you if any of the previous owners drove it like a Ferrari and/or never gave the damn thing an oil change.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Had it been totalled in a wreck and rebuilt, you'd be in better straights than now, many of the problems you mention would have been rectified.
And, there's little to do in saving that car, short of buying a completly new engine. The Oil leaks in 3 places! You loose oil as you go along at ridiculous rates. Unless you really love that car, you should send it where it (and the redbirds) belong, the scrapyard. Unless you can find some guy willing to repair the car for free.
A scrapyard is where it belongs, but unfortunately I've just begun paying off a $5000 loan on this thing, and having a car is also rather crucial to my job right now.
If it turns out I have a good case against the Saturn dealer, then hopefully I'll be driving a much newer and nicer car before too long. If not, then hopefully I'll be able to keep this thing running long enough to get it paid off and be able to afford a replacement.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>If it turns out I have a good case against the Saturn dealer, then hopefully I'll be driving a much newer and nicer car before too long. If not, then hopefully I'll be able to keep this thing running long enough to get it paid off and be able to afford a replacement.<<
That last sentence sounds like the TA during the 70's...
Plus, with the cash flying out the window to keep this one running, you might not get a new one for years, if you don't win your case.
That last sentence sounds like the TA during the 70's...
Good. I've been looking for a way to get this thread back on-topic.
Plus, with the cash flying out the window to keep this one running, you might not get a new one for years, if you don't win your case.
Well, if you're willing to buy me a better car in the meantime, I'll be happy to accept. Not all of us can just run out and purchase a new car when the mood strikes, especially just after being unemployed for five weeks. Just being able to get this thing was a big stretch for me financially, and that was before I had lost my job.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>Well, if you're willing to buy me a better car in the meantime, I'll be happy to accept. Not all of us can just run out and purchase a new car when the mood strikes, especially just after being unemployed for five weeks. Just being able to get this thing was a big stretch for me financially, and that was before I had lost my job.<<
I'll put it like this:
If through some means I get a few million dollars, you'll be the first person to get a new car.
Didn't you say you needed your car for your job?
If through some means I get a few million dollars, you'll be the first person to get a new car.
In that case I won't hold my breath. I guess your suggestion of simply sending my car to a scrap yard isn't such a viable option after all now, is it? If you have any other ideas, I'm all ears.
Didn't you say you needed your car for your job?
Yes, I just started working again 2-1/2 weeks ago. I'm supervising the soundproofing of houses in various suburbs near O'Hare Airport, which involves a lot of driving to and from our field office at the airport, and to various job sites. (Luckily I get reimbursed for mileage.) My car also serves as my de facto office, so public transit is not an option in this case.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>If you have any other ideas, I'm all ears.<<
Well, you could take the car's frame, and place it on a new chassis. Follow that by junking the old engine and wires entirely and putting in a new one. Then, replace the car's frame with a new one. Wait a minute, that's a whole new car! Guess those redbird fans have been rubbing off on me...
But seriously, if this car is a must keep, you could try the following option: replacing the bad parts. You said the following was wrong:
1) Three oil leaks, one at the valve cover seal, one at the oil pan seal, and another at the oil pressure sensor.
2) Most ominously, a large cloud of blueish smoke from the tailpipe whenever I hit the gas from a dead stop after the car is warmed up. A trusted gearhead friend of mine says this is a sure sign of bad piston rings. The only way to repair bad piston rings is to totally rebuild the engine.
3) A strange clatter sound whenever I hit the gas from a dead stop, which seems to be related to the smoke cloud. The bigger the clatter, the bigger the cloud.
4) A broken parking brake cable. Thank God I live in Chicago and not San Francisco.
5) A missing air dam from below the front end of the car.
6) Occasional sputtering and stalling in heavy stop-and-go traffic.
7) A bad oxygen sensor (since replaced)
8) Tires that lose air due to corrosion in the insides of the wheel rims.
For Nos. 1-3, you could replace the engine. I know that this is a seemingly costly fix for a busted car, but if you could get a used car engine, you could keep the car in condition to run for a while, at least for a few years.
#4: tough luck. Only solution: replace the cable (you knew that)
#5: The air dam is missing. Consider that a blessing that's the only thing missing right there.
#6: Could be an alternator problem. (when I was a little sprout, we had that problem in a car.)
#8: since you said you're on a tight budget, you could try just putting air in them every day.
(Just being able to get this thing was a big stretch for me financially, and that was before I had lost my job.)
That makes you about the umpteeth person I know personally who has been canned in the last three months. The June 2001 employment figures for New York don't look so good either. But their better than the national average, which doesn't look good at all.
Odd as it may sound, the fact that unemployment is rising* is a pretty good sign that the overall economy is improving. Unemployment is one of the "laggiest" of the lagging economic indicators. The people who lost their jobs before the slowdown began last fall, when unemployment was still falling, may very well have taken longer to find new jobs than will be the case with people losing their jobs right now.
* = unemployment may be on the rise, but it's still quite low by historical standards.
yep! i tol' my son not to get one !
( reminds me of the r-142 ) ...............laughing out loud ........lol!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry to hear that. Usually something a valve cover gasket is not expensive to replace, but the blue smoke does indicate serious wear and the engine would need to be rebuilt. It sound like this car has many problems and the last owner dumped it. The dealer probably put the additive that stops the smoke temporarily.
Good luck.
Wayne
I'm sorry to hear that. Usually something a valve cover gasket is not expensive to replace, but the blue smoke does indicate serious wear and the engine would need to be rebuilt. It sound like this car has many problems and the last owner dumped it. The dealer probably put the additive that stops the smoke temporarily.
Good luck.
Wayne
A head job ( & new valves ) ...
What a LONG THREAD!!! I'm sympathetic to your cause, having been fooled out of my almighty dollar for a 1994 SW with the signle overhead cam engine, one which i understand has been recalled for cylinder head cracking problems. I took it back to the dealer and they had the same sob story. I ended up taking apart the cylinder head, changing the head gasket and finally after getting oil back into the radiator, replaced the motor oil with gear oil to stop the clattering and promptly traded it in for my new Neon.
I would first stick to the warranty as it is almost 90 days and under 3,000 miles should be honored by the dealer. If you plan on bypassing the dealer and want a second opinion before court, get a mechanic to do a compression check to see if it is the rings before discarding the car. If compression is within 10 LBs from the highest to lowest on average of four cylinders, you have sensors broken, perhaps the MAP and you are looking at the valve seal umbrellas, a job that can be done along with the valve cover gaskets and oil pressure switch for a few hundred $. If adding a squirt of oil to the lowest pressure cylinders brings it up, the piston oil control rings are shot. Check the radiator cap for motor oil in the antifreeze as I suspect the head gasket may be shot. It was a chronic problem on the SOHC piece of shit they installed from 94 up. The oil pan seal is a big job but if you can knock off the other two leaks, you shouldn't be at 2 quarts a week.
Road Car Inspector :-)
I would first stick to the warranty as it is almost 90 days and under 3,000 miles should be honored by the dealer.
This is where it's a little fuzzy. On the same window sticker that says the car carries at least a 90-day warranty, there is also a hand-written note that says something like "AS-IS. No warranty is expressed or implied." They also had me sign a paper that states the car is as-is. I would assume this overrides the hint of a 90-day warranty on the sticker. Regardless, the window sticker is essentially giving conflicting information, but it makes it clear that the car has supposedly been thouroughly inspected. Hopefully some attorney will be willing to sort it all out. (I still haven't heard back from them yet. I'll give them until Monday, as they said it would be 3-5 days.)
If you plan on bypassing the dealer and want a second opinion before court, get a mechanic to do a compression check to see if it is the rings before discarding the car.
The Saturn dealer supposedly did a compression check when I brought it in, and told me the car passed. But based on my experiences with them so far, I'm inclined to take their word with a grain of salt. Also, I understand that in rare cases it is possible for a car to pass a compression test but still have crappy rings. I think my next step may be to take the car to an independent mechanic and see what they say.
Also, the Saturn dealer told me I have oil leaks at the valve cover seal and at the oil pan seal, but that there was no leak at the oil pressure sensor. This struck me as a bit odd, since I had gotten the valve cover seal replaced less than a month ago at Pep Boys, and they had told me there was a leak at the pressure sensor. I took the car back to Pep Boys to have them look at it, and they said the valve cover seal was fine and that there is no leak there. However, they confirmed the leak at the oil pan seal and said the oil pressure seal was still leaking.
Like I said, I still haven't heard back from the attorney yet as to whether or not I have a valid case. I've been doing some reading up in the meantime, and I'm starting to suspect my only glimmer of hope would be to somehow prove that the dealer knew about the problems before selling the car to me.
Arrrgh!!!
-- David
Chicago, IL
In that case, I wouldn't touch the car at all. I was in the same position where I had to have a newer vehicle for long trips and made the mistake of getting the Saturn. BTW, oil leaks are an unsafe condition and can cause failure to pass safety inspections nowadays. I learned that even though I am a shadetree mechanic, it pays for me to bring a professional the next time I look at a used car. Hope it doesn't happen to you again and good luck in court.
My late grandfather once got a lemon of a Buick. He made up a sign, parked in fromnt of the dealership, and put the sign on top of the car. In three hours, they had fixed every problem.
-Hank
My late grandfather once got a lemon of a Buick. He made up a sign, parked in fromnt of the dealership, and put the sign on top of the car. In three hours, they had fixed every problem.
Then there was a man in Florida who did that one better. He bought a ten-foot tree at a commercial nursery and let it stick through his car's sunroof when he parked in front of the dealership. You can figure out what species of tree it was.
I pulled a similar stunt at the fruit stand at 63rd Dr and Booth St. Sold rotten fruit, and rtefused me a refund. Pointing to the sign, the girl at the counter says "NO CASH REFUND. You take more apple." I told her, in a nice loud voice for the customers in line behind me, that if I didn't get the cash refund, I'd stand in front of their store and display the rotten fruit to every customer.
-Hank :)
Best to go out and get yourself a brand new Sonata, They're sharp-looking, highly rated by AAA, and they're well designed on the inside as well as the outside, even in the subtlest things like having a small register on the driver and passenger side doors (makes defrosting your front side windows 100 times easier) and the secret compartment to the left of the steering wheel (a lot easier at the toll booth).
And Hyundai really backs up their cars...10 year warranty I bought mine as a demo/floor model w/3200 miles on it, so I defaulted to the standard 3/36, but added an extended warranty to 6 years 75k.
I don't care what they say, those extended warranties are well worth it. For $18-30 more a month on the payment you hardly pay for a major repair.
>>> $18-30 more a month on the payment you hardly pay for a major repair. <<<
Hmm. $30/month for 36 months = $1,080.00, plus the maintenance expenses at the intervals required to ensure that the warranty remains in force. Seems like you pay for a major repair whether you need one or not. Statistically, extended warranties are a bad investment.
Tom
Tell that to my 6-month-old TV.
-Hank
You could try using Motor Medic or similar additive to reduce or stop the oil burning. If you didn't see any blue smoke when you bought the car, the dealer probably threw in a can of it. Heavier oil (straight 40-weight) does the same thing. Valvoline has 50- and even 60-weight racing oil; however, you don't want to have that stuff in your crankcase during winter. The resulting engine drag would be quite high.
It sounds as though the previous owner either abused the vehicle or neglected it, or both.
When I left a few months ago, this site was still about transit...
4 days and you have to come back to be the only one to complain.
The amount that a person complains about off-topic conversation is inversely proportional to the amount of knowledge that person has to contribute.
I wasn't complaining; there have always been off-topic threads. I just thought it was ironic that a thread about internal combustion powered cars had no responses mentioning transit as an alternative.
Probably because transit is not an alternative in this case. As I mentioned in my first posting, my job requires me to drive around to inspect various construction sites in the suburbs. As such, I also end up using my car as a mobile office to transport various tools and paperwork. If I were to even attempt taking public transit, I'd be spending most of my work day waiting at train stations and bus stops, not to mention lugging around a huge crate of files, tape measure, level, flashlight, cell phone and laptop computer. That simply isn't an option in my case.
-- David
Chicago, IL
While browsing through the SubTalk archives a couple nights ago, I came across a thread that mentioned the Illinois Railway Museum (which I am now a proud member of!) has agreed to purchase a pair of redbirds.
Any idea of what the status is of this aquisition, or when they are due to arrive? I'm no fan of the rustbirds in revenue service, but it will be nice to have a couple preserved at a good museum. IRM could also certainly use a bit more NYCTA equipment, as it naturally leans heavily toward Chicago equipment.
Wonder if we could arrange a fan trip on the redbirds around the Chicago Loop... Wouldn't that be a sight!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Redbirds on Chicago's Loop "L"? That would indeed be a sight. However, two things come to mind:
1) Third rail pickup. Chicago's "L" third rail is more like Manhattan's elevated third rail than the configuration for the IRT subway.
2) While IRT car dimensions are closer to Chicago's than those of the BMT/IND, could a redbird negotiate the 90' radius curves on the Loop "L"? Think about the Inner Loop curve at Wells and Van Buren, the sharpest I can think of offhand.
While redbirds in the cornfields of Union, Illinois is another intriguing idea, would they be just a static display, or would some trackage be third rail equipped?
While redbirds in the cornfields of Union, Illinois is another intriguing idea, would they be just a static display, or would some trackage be third rail equipped?
I can't answer your first question, but weren't the North Shore interurbans roughly the size of the redbirds and able to navigate the Loop without trouble?
Regarding the third question: Assuming the cars are operable, I suspect they'd be outfitted with descreet trolley poles and would run on the museum's regular trackage. There are several pieces of CTA rapid transit equipment that operate in a similar way.
I'd love to see their insurance agent's reaction at the thought of putting 600-volt third rail on the museum's grounds. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
If you examine the North Shore interurbans, you'll see they have rounded ends which no doubt helped them snake around the sharp curves the L structure has to offer. The Electroliners, as well as present day L cars, have tapered sides in order to increase capacity and still meet clearances.
All Chicago L cars are 48 feet long while Redbirds are 51 feet long. I think the Redbirds could run in the subway portions, but they mat get hung up on some of the curves on the elevated structures.
<< While redbirds in the cornfields of Union, Illinois is another intriguing idea, would they be just a static display, or would some trackage be third rail equipped? >>
Static. The IRM generally only runs equipment that ran in that part of the country. For example, the museum has a pair of PCCs still in MBTA colors, that will eventually be repainted and relettered for Chicago. The museum also has a H&M car on a storage track but I never expect to see that receive anything other than a cosmetic restoration.
All running equipment receives a trolley pole. The CTA El cars all run under wire even though in the operational life they ran third rail.
Those of you coming to Chicago for the First Midwest Subtalk Labor Day Field Trip will experience the museum first-hand. It's quite a sight!
I'm the Associate Editor of "Rail & Wire," the official newsletter of IRM. As an attendee at several recent Board of Directors meetings, I can tell you that IRM is planning to acquire a pair of Redbirds. At the moment, the project has stalled because the cars need to have asbestos removed. However, it is still on track to happen.
It should probably be made clear that the cars are being acquired for one primary purpose: to go into revenue service. The electric collection at IRM has always focused on the Midwest, and - believe it or not - there's a heckuva lot of opposition to the idea of acquiring a pair of New York subway cars. The only way that the NY subway fans here have been able to justify it is by presenting the argument that IRM will be able to run these new cars all the time, thereby easing the strain on some of the Chicago-area cars that are more central to the collection. In essence, IRM will be acquiring the Redbirds for the expressed purpose of running them into the ground.
There is also opposition based on the fact that they will have to be modified with unprototypical trolley poles. You're right about the insurance companies' probable reaction to the idea of third rail! We'd never consider installing active third rail, however IRM is not wild on the idea of installing unprototypical equipment either.
As for the points made above that purport that IRM has "tourist line" tendencies, let me make a couple of things clear. Those two MBTA PCC cars were stored at IRM for several years by an outside owner, who eventually lost interest and donated them to IRM. They will NOT be repainted in Chicago colors; IRM is not in the business of altering history for our own benefit. The current plan is to scrap them both for parts for a pair of Chicago streetcars. And IRM doesn't have an H&M car at all - perhaps you're thinking of the one at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis.
"In essence, IRM will be acquiring the Redbirds for the expressed purpose of running them into the ground."
I am aware of what that means, can you express it in your own words ? It sounds like it is a temporary thing.
Bill "Newkirk"
Isn't that kind of like what the Ta is doing now? Run them to make money, with very little spent on the maintenance. Spend only what is required.
<< Those two MBTA PCC cars were stored at IRM for several years by an outside owner, who eventually lost interest and donated them to IRM. They will NOT be repainted in Chicago colors >>
Is that a change from previous plans? When I visited two years ago I was told by one of the streetcar operators that IRM was going to repaint and reletter the PCCs to Chicago Surface Lines.
If they really wanted to make those PCCs authentic CSL representatives, they'd mount the bodies on the trucks 3 inches off center. They had to do that with the Blue Geese and Green Hornets because of clearance issues. Otherwise, they would have sideswiped each other.
Are there any plans to restore Blue Goose 4021 to running condition? I saw it in 1996, and it looked mighty spiffy in its original paint scheme. How's Green Hornet 4391 doing? My dream is to make it out to IRM on a day when it's running. I also saw it in 1996, even gave it an affectionate pat. Its signs were set to the old Halsted route 8; whenever I think of the Green Hornets, I think of the 36 Broadway-State or the 22 Clark-Wentworth routes.
And to think I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago....
Of course, their 4000s had trolley poles right from the start.
Much easier to just stick a trolley pole on top. Assuming they already have some trolley wire up. But even if they don't, trolley wire seems a lot easier to install than a third rail.
IRM has a 4-mile track with overhead wire, as well a fairly long trolley loop around the grounds with several stops, also with overhead wire.
Map of Illinois Railway Museum grounds (including partial track map)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well there ya go! Looks like that museum is a pretty happening place. I'd like to stop by there sometime.
IRM is a very cool museum. I had been to Seashore a few times while living in Boston, and I was very impressed by the size of the place, but IRM blew me away. And unlike many trolley museums, IRM has everthing from steam, deisel, trolley, interurban, and rapid transit. If it runs on rails, IRM probably has it.
They also have an extensive signal display, and an actual reconstructed "L" stop. Their main depot is said to be the oldest surviving railroad depot west of Pittsburg, and they're also in the process of restoring an honest-to-goodness diner as a functioning restaurant.
Yeah, it's a pretty happening place. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yeah, it's a pretty happening place. :-)
I'll second the motion!
-- Ed Sachs
I'll third that!:-)
Is the SubTalk field trip to IRM still scheduled for Sept 1?
Indeed it is. I plan to get some group rate information for various hotels downtown soon, and I'll post further details to the mailing list and to SubTalk as soon as they become available.
-- David
Chicago, IL
There was a thread posted about 2-2 1/2 years ago when it was first mentioned IRM was seeking a married pair of Chicago-based American Car Foundary Redbirds once they were retired. Assuming the R-26/28s are all off the system by the end of the year, that would mean the IRM could have the ACF `Birds on display by sometime next years.
David, the person to talk with at IRM concerning this is
Jerry Saunders.
While IRM has approved the acquisition and there are some funds
on hand for it, the status is very much in the air for any museum
to receive any retired redbirds because of the abatement issue.
Can anyone out there let me know if the PCC cars are still in operation or not?...I have heard some talk that buses are being used on the line on the weekends.
AFAIK, they are still in service, but only on weekdays. Weekends there is substitute bus service. I'm not sure about evenings.
If you're planning a field trip, I'm in -- I still haven't ridden the PCC's.
Not my fault that you haven't ridden the PCC's yet. If there weren't a place called BusTalk next door, I'd tell ya walk I think about their "substitute bus service!"
Read this post:Newark City Subway Article (239482)
Aug 27th last day.
Aug 27th last day.
Aug 27 is the first day for the light rail cars. Presumably the last day for the PCC's will be Aug 24 or 26.
the loot
The Electric City Trolley Museum in Scranton, PA, better get at least one of these. They can really haul! If NJ Transit is seriously set on giving them away to museums then that is really nice of them. Although I think they can give one or two to San Fran. What's wrong with that?
Doesn't San Fran leave them in the home livery?
Doesn't San Fran leave them in the home livery?
Yes, they do, at least in old-time home livery. It's fun to try to count how many different cities' colors you can spot on Market Street. It'd also be fun to see PCCs with the bright orange-blue-purple NJT stripes running through San Francisco, but I have a feeling they'd run the Newark PCCs in the nostalgic white and goldish-brown of their earlier days.
Mark
The offical word is that all cars and parts are to stay in NJ. The cars are politically connected.
BTW - as much has I like these cars (I now have 12 of their sisters here in Brooklyn), and know how hard the folks under Penn work to keep them going, but they are really tired. No GOH's ever, just minor renovations, regular maintenance and a relatively protected environment. It takes a toll after 50 years.
Ok. Thanks.
Sad that the local news outlets couldn't write an article on their own and instead had to go with the wire services.
But I guess that's how the modern media works.
So Newark will get its subway extension in operation at about the same time we get ours...
The connection to Broad Street will be a good thing.
So Newark will get its subway extension in operation at about the same time we get ours...
Ours????
It's rather hard for me to be sure if there is a blooper because I haven't actually seen it :-) As a registered member of nitpickers.com with more than three posted nitpicks, I get to vote on accepting or rejecting recent submissions (there are currently over 4,000 awaiting review). At any rate, I just came across a submission for Along Came a Spider, in which it was claimed that a scene supposedly taking place on the DC Metro was actually filmed on the NYC subway. The person making the submission claims that the cars shown clearly were New York ones, although he or she didn't say what type they were. Has anyone seen the movie? If so, is this claim true?
To all SubTalkers. The handle (BMTJeff) which I have used since December of 1999 is officially retired. I new handle is #3 West End Jeff in honor of the new "W" train on the West End Line that now operatres on the BMT Broadway Line in Manhattan rather than on the IND 6th Avenue line in Manhattan. THE BMT LIVES!!!
#3 West End Jeff
<Just not in your handle.
I hope that you like my new handle in honor of the old BMT West End Line.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
How did you change your handle
I contacted the web site host and asked him that I wish to change my handle. I checked my e-mail a few hourd later and the change took effect.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Well---we now have #1 Brighton Express Bob, #3 West End Jeff, and yours truly, #4 Sea Beach. What we need is a #2 Fourth Avenue Local, and a #5 Culver and we're in business. Any takers out there?
Well, I'm thinking of going to something like A Train Steve. I still won't use any R-10 references out of respect for William Padron.
Right On!!!!!!!! William Padron is R-10 PERIOD!!!!!!! But that new handle that you are contemplating sounds good to me. So as you told me two years ago: "The name is yours for the taking." Take it.
Yes, indeed, William is Mister R-10. I'm just a big R-10 fan. Come to think of it, R-10 Fan wouldn't be too bad a handle after all.
Well, Now we have a #1 Brighton exp. Bob, a #3 West End Jeff, and a #4 Sea Beach Fred. Perhaps I should change my handle to #5 Culver J? Nah, I like the Culver better as an IND line. It keeps off that bridge, and better yet, It kept the Culver alive (it wouldn't have survived). An' 'sides, I'm not an 'old tymer' like you other 'BMT number fellas'
But now for the real topic of this post:
#1=Brighton exp, #3=West End, #4=Sea Beach, #5=Culver, #7=franklin. Were there any #2 or #6 trains?
My last post was almost a carbon copy of yours. If I had read yours first, I wouldn't have written mine. Yes, the #2 train was the Broadway Local, known in Brooklyn as the 4th Avenue Local. There was a #6 train as well. It was the 5th Avenue Brooklyn line. All of this is made clear in James Greller's "Cars of the BMT."
The #2 train on the BMT was the 4th Avenue local in Brooklyn. It also was a local train in Manhattan under Broadway.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I see a 9! :)
#9 on the BMT was the Flushing line. It never appeared on rolling stock, though.
Brighton
4th Avenue Local
West End
Sea Beach
Culver
Fifth Avenue
Franklin
Astoria
Flushing
Myrtle-Chambers
Myrtle-Sands/Park Row
Lexington (Brooklyn)
Fulton
Broadway El local
Jamaica
Canarsie
It is getting very close, surely someone must have a more set-in-stone MU assignment list than the one on Korman's site. If so, please post!
Hey folks,
Just a reminder that I'll be starting my track review for the third edition today, and will be having a little impromptu get-together at the south end of West 4th St., southbound 6th Ave. express side, between 14:00 and 14:15 or so (after which I'm off on the next southbound Q for a farewell to the North Side Tracks).
I'll be glad to shake hands with and say hi to any fellow SubTalkers who plan on being in the area today. Hope to see you there!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
I asked around and I solved the 3/4 aspect confusion. The 1924 CSS test on the Williamsport Div. did use a three aspect system, but all other CSS installations used the 4 aspect we all know and love. Here is an excerpt.
"According to Atlantic Div. ETT #2, 9/30/1928 (see S. I. #D2503) the Cab Signal (as it was now called) on the engines displayed the same 4 aspects as we are used to seeing. Only the names were different, in deference to the terminology contained in the 1925 rule book. Baltimore Div. ETT #11, 4/27/1930, confirms this (see S. I. #D2510)."
i have seen it today at E. 180th street (7/17) set number 6511-15 had art work over led exterior route sign box. shocking! for you who hated the antiseptic look, this will give it a nice touch. however i'm gonna dislike it. it looks better without it. also the painting is one more thing for vandals to ruin. also the bombardiers, as i talked to the ta, says that they aren't doing so well compared to the kawasaki. as they come in some pass the the tests, most come in for minor tweaks before passing on the second try. he also told me that the kawasaki's pass on the first try and run well but are consistant in being called out of service frequently for problems. thats why there is a lot of other sets than the ones that were in for a long time on the line.
4:42 PM Tuesday near the Arlington Station. He "apparently wandered onto the tracks."
Star-Ledger story
That's sad.
Also sad is the comment that a passenger accident had little impact on the evening rush. Sad commentary on the state of service on the Boonton line.
Can anyone report on the actual progress on the Montclair connection? I haven't been out that way in years, and the NJT website's information on the subject hasn't been updated in ages.
CG
Here's the list of the condemned prisoners in Concourse Yard,
8574-75 8614-15 8634-35 8658-59 8538-39 9500-01 9490-91 9480-81 7784-85 7760-61 7854-55 8776-77 7756-57 9482-83 9484-85 9520-21 9278-79 9514-15 9518-19 9596-97 9502-03 9522-23 9524-25 9498-99 9512-13 78-28-29 7952-53 7894-95 7874-75 7764-65 7803-02 7840-41 7718-19
Not responsible for typographical errors
Bt the way: Will someone hold salaam's hand when he reads this. Many of these 'death row inmates' are old friends of his.
I'll drink to that (Smile)!
Quick, someone get our LA Friend Scooba Gear, he's gonna need to do railfan videos from underwater........
-Stef
Thanks Steve. All those are added to the scrap lists.
Although there's one pair in there that is an R22 and one pair that is an R30.. is that right or just a typo?
I noticed 7750-51 isn't on the list. Have that pair and a few others already been cleared from the property?
That was the Concourse Yard list. 7750 is (was?) at 207th St.
7750 and 51 are stripped and waiting to be barged away from 207th St.
Anyone have a confirmation date for when these are leaving the property?
-Stef
I just checked the scrap list of R36WFs and compared with Steve's list. The Redbirds retired on 7/3/01 are still in Concourse Yard except 9478-79.
9278-79 belong to Jerome Yard. They may be typing errors of 9478-79.
Also, 9596-97 belong to Corona Yard. They may be the typing errors of either 8596-97 or 9496-97.
Chaohwa
I don't have the list in front of me but I copied the #s off of the yard map. The errors, if any, can be blamed on the yard disp.
Sure hope they get a last meal ... bouillibase at least. :)
Don't let our idiot president find out, he'll get too excited if he hears about condemned prisoners!!!!!!!!!!!
Your favorite socialist
Piggo
Let's give them 600 volts! A volt for every vote! (whoops, been done)
Dear Train Dude:
Thanks very much for your response to my inquiry of last night.
Scanning these inmates reveals no surprises. Most seem to be the former Pelham R-36 fleet, some were previously reported in stroage at Coney Island. Strange how that one pair (R-28s 7874/7875) never turned up elsewhere.
The net result is the same. The "Deadbird" body count on July 17 stands at 162 cars. An impressive start for two short months!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Why are so many of you guys so sadistic about this ? They are in far better shape at 40 years of age than the pre-war cars were when they met their fate 20-30 years ago. Any they still run pretty good with MDBF's that put R16's to shame at 25 years old.
I'm sure for most here it is only a reaction to the "Redbird Forever" contingent.
You're making it sound as though they were at Attica.:-)
Fry 'em! Give 'em 600 volts where it COUNTS! :)
More like Terre Haute.
I was thinking of the rouing that both 6th Avenue shuttles would take. These routings are based on Peter Dougherty's "Tracks" book, and the given terminals for both shuttles.
(S) 6th Avenue Shuttle
SB-to B'way-Lafayette
On T1/B5 between 21 Street and Rockefeller Center
Bottom yellow at X120 north of Rockefeller Center to arrive there on B1 track
Bottom yellow at XB14 north of West 4th to arrive there on B3 track
Terminate at B'way-Lafayette on B3 track.
NB-to 21-Queensbridge
On B3 at B'way-Lafayette
Switch to B4 track north of station
Bottom yellow at X25 at West 4th Street & switch to B2 track north of station.
Bottom yellow at X140 at Rockefeller Center & switch to B6 north of station.
Continue on B6/T2 to 21-Queensbridge
Since (B) and (D) trains will use 34th Street as a terminal station, (S) trains would need to switch to/from the local tracks north of Rockefeller Center to avoid train conflicts.
(S) Grand Street Shuttle
On B4 track in both directions.
Since B3 track is being used fot (S) trains to Queens, Grand Street (S) trains are confined to the B4 track, on which a train can operate in both directions. If Queens (S) trains ran to 2nd Avenue (on tracks B5 and B6) instead of B'way-Lafayette, two trains could operate as shuttles, using both B3 and B4 tracks.
That would confuse people who wouldn't know which shuttle would be the next to leave. Besides, a one track train could easily facilitate 5-6 minute headways if the trains are turned around quickly.
"That would confuse people who wouldn't know which shuttle would be the next to leave"
Not if the signs on the platforms are placed correctly. For example, "for shuttle to Grand St" etc.
Well, that plan that R36 had sounds like the plan to be implemented.
I was thinking of the rouing that both 6th Avenue shuttles would take. These routings are based on Peter Dougherty's "Tracks" book, and the given terminals for both shuttles.
(S) 6th Avenue Shuttle
SB-to B'way-Lafayette
On T1/B5 between 21 Street and Rockefeller Center
Bottom yellow at X120 north of Rockefeller Center to arrive there on B1 track
Bottom yellow at XB14 north of West 4th to arrive there on B3 track
Terminate at B'way-Lafayette on B3 track.
NB-to 21-Queensbridge
On B3 at B'way-Lafayette
Switch to B4 track north of station
Bottom yellow at X25 at West 4th Street & switch to B2 track north of station.
Bottom yellow at X140 at Rockefeller Center & switch to B6 north of station.
Continue on B6/T2 to 21-Queensbridge
Frankly I think you've made it far too complex than it needs to be. I suspect it will work as follows:
Orange-S will run local up and down 6th Ave., interspersed with Fs, discharge at B'way-Lafayette and relay at 2nd Ave. (although why they wouldn't run it revenue to 2nd Ave. is beyond me--this would be a logical terminal for it).
Grey-S will run on both B3 and B4 (no relay required)
Of course, I could be completely wrong (I don't know this ahead of time, despite aking all my usual sources).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
They are planning on doing precisely what R36 said. The reason 2nd ave is not being used is because the switches are being replaced.
"The reason 2nd ave is not being used is because the switches are being replaced."
in preparation for the V I assume b/c they haven't been used for years
>>in preparation for the V I assume b/c they haven't been used for years<<
Night shuttles from 21st Queensbridge are listed as running to 2nd av.
Si, and they also ran the D to 2nd ave somewhat recently (mid Feb?)
But the crossover at 2nd Ave. is still not back in place...
So they need to turn the trains at Bway/Lafayette.
I live close to 2nd Ave. station. I would love to see more service.
But it can't be done right now.
Also which yards and trains will be used on the sixth ave and Grand shuttles?
The Grand St. shuttle is supposed to use a 4 car R-46, so that would place it in Jamaica, even though the shuttle is apart of ther South section rather than Queens.
The 63rd St shuttle is supposed to be R-32's, so I have no idea what that will be, as CI, Jamaica, and Pitkin/207th have those cars.
The various GO-related 63rd Street shuttles have usually been R-32's. This one will presumably be from the same yard -- Jamaica, probably.
And it'll be interesting to see R-46's at Grand. Aside from an occasional F or R run astray, when was the last time an R-46 stopped at Grand in revenue service?
>>The various GO-related 63rd Street shuttles have usually been R-32's. This one will presumably be from the same yard -- Jamaica, probably.<<
Interesting that you mention those shuttles. I never knew what yard they came from. But, one day at City Hall, an R-32 comes into the station displaying "Y" on the front. I was puzzled as the people next to me, but as it passed us, I saw it was signed up for "Shuttle" or (S) 63rd st shuttle. It also only carried 6 cars. The train could only have been headed one place, CI. Thus, it is extremely likely that any future 63rd st shuttles on Broadway would come from Coney.
However, this shuttle is operating on 63rd and 6th av. Since the Grand St. shuttle is coming from Jamaica, It's probable that the 63rd st shuttle is coming from Jamaica too.
BTW: how many trainsets are needed for the shuttle?
Good with R32's you'll still get a railfan window through the 63rd street tunnel.
[Good with R32's you'll still get a railfan window through the 63rd street tunnel.]
And the 6th Avenue Local, which, before Sunday, was in desperate need of something other than R46's running on it.
I'm guessing 6 car R-32s for the shuttle, as on the 63rd/Broadway shuttle. But there may be 8, since the 6th ave corridor would be less served without the B/D.
I don't think many people, except those who ride the F or the shuttle anyway, will bother with 6th Avenue. With the notable exception of W4 (both as a destination and as a transfer point), Broadway is close enough to 6th that it's just not worth transferring.
Incidentally, when I transfer at 34th, I usually use the south end, which always seems like the back way. For a change, I tried the north end yesterday. Those ramps are even worse than the ones at 42nd! There should really be four direct platform-to-platform elevators (staircases probably wouldn't fit) to make transferring a bit easier, at least for the few who fit in the elevator.
Hmm. In the article which mentioned that the M would be extended to Brooklyn, it is also mentioned that the Grand St. shuttle is now extended to W4th st. But, if the 21st st shuttle is to terminate at Bdwy-lafayette, the following sequence must occur:
(S) arrives at W4 switches. Takes the crossover onto the express downtown track. Goes to Bdwy-laff. Dumps. Then, takes single crossover west of Bdwy-laff. to arrive at W4 express track. Switches to local track after W4th. However, between Bdwy-Lafayette and W4th, the two shuttles must share trackage. Considering that the (S) will be a single track shuttle, I find it hard to see how the TA plans on doing this. Anyone who knows how, please explain it.
Here is the track map of the area.
I can explain it perfectly. The shuttle won't be extended until November, as the article states. That is when the shuttle kicks the bucket and is replaced by the F which gets replaced by the V.
oops. Thanks Henry.
From today's NY Times:
JUL 18, 2001
Vallone Would Aid City Riders by Adding Suburban Train Stops
By DIANE CARDWELL
Saying that New York was alone among large cities in having decreased its train track mileage since the 1940's, Peter F. Vallone outlined a plan yesterday to expand city train service using existing tracks and stations.
"It's expensive, but it's doable," said Mr. Vallone, the City Council speaker and a Democrat who is running for mayor. He estimated that the cost of reopening the stations would be from several hundred thousand dollars to $20 million. "These are existing rail lines that we should be talking about reopening service which once was available to the people of the city of New York," he said.
Mr. Vallone's announcement came a week after another mayoral candidate, the Republican Michael R. Bloomberg, rode the subways, pledged to use some form of public transportation including taxis if elected mayor, and discussed his own transportation plan.
Yesterday, Mr. Bloomberg's rival for the Republican nomination, Herman Badillo, asked Mr. Bloomberg "to schedule a series of debates, preferably two per week." Ed Skyler, a spokesman for the Bloomberg campaign, said, "Mike has agreed to debate Herman," but declined to give specifics or set a schedule.
Mr. Vallone's plan would use a combination of existing Metro-North, Long Island Rail Road, Amtrak and Staten Island Railway tracks, trains and stations to alleviate crowding on lines like the Lexington Avenue line in Manhattan and to reestablish service in under-served communities. For example, Metro-North trains that now zip underneath Park Avenue on the Harlem line would stop at reopened stations at 86th Street, 73rd Street and 60th Street.
Riders' advocates said yesterday that they supported the basic idea of the plan. "If the speaker is advocating that the suburban commuter lines better serve the city, then I say right on or ride on, whatever the correct exclamation would be," said Gene Russianoff, staff lawyer for the Straphangers Campaign, a transit watchdog group.
Tom Kelly, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which operates several of the commuter lines involved, said that he would not comment until he saw a more detailed proposal.
Another Democratic candidate for mayor, Mark Green, the city's public advocate, yesterday proposed doubling the size of the Jacob K. Javits
Convention Center. He criticized the current administration's plan to tie expansion to the construction of a stadium, saying it would require breaking up the center's exhibition space.
Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company
"It's expensive, but it's doable," said Mr. Vallone, the City Council speaker
So is a bridge across the gulf of mexico. Mr. Vallone is one of those who talks but says nothing.
If Speaker Vallone wants to turn heads with his transit ideas, he needs to do two things:
1) Quit the bickering about the line to LGA and start giving some better ideas aside from the N line extension, and
2) he'd better start talking to the people planning ESA, LESA, and Access to the region's core.
Excuse me, LESA was supposed to be "Lower Manhattan Access"
(Mr. Vallone is one of those who talks but says nothing.)
All of the candidates have spoken with unspoken words. They have lots of plans for NYC tax dollars. But transportation, well their plans are all contingent on the State and Federal government kicking in the money.
In other words, invest in transporation, but only if money falls from the sky. Not using NYC tax dollars. Not raising fares. Not installing tolls on the East River Bridges. Not raising productivity, by having one station agent instead of two token booth clerks.
Of course, NYC DOES get a bad deal from other levels of government in transportation. But that ain't going to change just because one of these guys gets elected.
"Don't tax you. Don't tax me. Tax that guy behind the tree."
while operationaly 60th st might be a problem, the general idea is IMHO correct. Two issues are key. First ALL fares withn the five boroughs must be the same -- Metrocard single fare as with any other TA bus or train. Secondly some 'smarter' scheduling and operation is called for. The best thing here is that the issue has surfaced in the public debate. We here at subtalk have batted around some of these ideas off and on, but now we have a shot maybe at some actual transit improvements.
In principle, I like that idea. But, unless this is just talk for the sake of talk, I think Vallone needs to be ready to come to the table in a cooperative mood...
On main page for R142 it is said that :
R142 primary order 6301-6980 Bombardier 1999-2001 680 cars ;
R142 option order 6981-7210 Bombardier 1999-2001 230 cars .
But if you see the delivery notes page for R142A (Kawasaki):
7209-7210 Seen being delivered via truck via GWB, presumably en route to Yonkers 1/29/2000;
Seen in Yonkers 5/9/2000 .
Which information is correct, and what's the story about 7209-7210 ?
i think their both correct probaly saw them once on the GWB and once at yonkers. 7209-7210 are maintence cars so t/os can get use to the car that the #6 operators operate the train a little better
Thanks.
It means, that 7209-7210 were made by Kawasaki.
R-142 6301-6980: Original Bombardier order.
R-142 6981-7210: Option #1 to Bombardier order.
R-142A 7211-7610: Original Kawasaki order.
R-142 7610-7730: Option #2 to Bonbardier order.
R-142A 7731-7850: Option to Kawasaki order.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
That should be 7611-7730!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What's the probability of accepting an option order? Pretty high, I would think.
They already have chosen to accept the option orders.
Peace,
ANDEE
Were all three Opt. orders were chosen? I thought that there were only one Opt order per company. When did they add the secound one to Bomd.
Robert
In January 2001, Bombardier was awarded a 200-car option and a 150-car change order (R-142). Kawasaki was awarded a 120-car option (R-142A).
David
So is it possible that the original two Kawasaki cars bearing the numbers 7209-7210 seen in Yonkers in Jan. 2000 have been renumbered and delivered? Anyone know?
why would they do that
Because of R142 Option Order Numbering - the last two cars will have 7209 and 7210 numbers.
R142 Main Page & R142 Delivery Page at www.nycsubway.org have to be updated according to this memo.
did the ta order morder R142s
are they goiong to be on the #3 and #4 like i said before
did the ta order more R142s
are they going to be on the #3 and #4 like i said before
Here's is Bloomberg's Plan.
"As Mayor, to encourage the use of mass transit, I pledge to lead by example. During my administration, I will use public transportation at least once every day rather than the City-provided official car."
WOW!
Well, that changes everything.
I had decided against voting for him when he said something about zero tolerance (pronounced Zi-roe in-tel-i-jens) in schools.
If the courts uphold the Mayor's current efforts, diplomats who thumb their noses at traffic laws would have their cars towed to the farthest tow pound in the city. We might not be able to collect fines and other levies, but we could make them think twice about violating the law.
That'd be funny as hell to see a diplomat try to recover his or her car.
Yes it would. Just remember that "what goes around comes around." We also have diplomats in other countries.
[We also have diplomats in other countries. ]
I don't think NYC has.
Arti
No, but the US does. And I seem to recall an incident where because we treated one country's diplomats badly, ours got sent back to the States on the first thing smoking.
I don't think we NYers really need to get this nation in trouble just because of a "get tough on diplomats w/o being smart" issue.
The recent history of the Williamsburg Bridge illustrates the cost of the failure to do regular maintenance. Instead of an estimated annual cost of $2 million in maintenance, we have spent more than $400 million in the past 20 years. An estimated $100 million more is needed. The disruption to the roadway and subways has been tremendous.
Do you think he meant the Manhattan Bridge?
No. Someone has pointed out to him that virtually the entire Willie B (except for the piers and anchorages) is being replaced -- one piece at a time.
I talked to my Educator boss, as a Docent, he informed me that we are closing in August. So the Museum has not much time.......
Rumor has it among Educators it is gonna be closed at least a year or so.
This is probably a silly question, and my apologies in advance, but WHAT museum?
the Transit museum which we all have come to love!!!! the one with Money car G in it, the one with Q cars in it and so on
YOW! Sorry for not knowing that, I'm tucked away in upstate Noo Yawk where we're still waiting for the Paturkey to show up in his office and do some of that "budget thang" that was supposed to be finished on April 1 ... and no doubt, the lack of money for the MTA and everything else that matters ain't happening ... and Paturkey and Bruno are now saying there may be no budget at all ... wonder if that's got anything to do with it.
Just flipping wonderful ... we all gotta make some noise ...
. . . wonder if that's got anything to do with it.
No. This one's not his fault. It's been coming for a while. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is for renovations.
Yes. Go back and search the archives, and I think the first report of the planned closer of the Transit Museum for renovations was posted on the board almost a year ago.
Oh for renovations. I thought it was closing permanently!
While we’re on the subject of renovations at the T.M. – I suppose that during this coming period of renovation, there’ll be a full reworking of the R30 #8506 car which hasn’t been functional (in terms of the lights being on and the doors open) for over a year now. . . .
During phases of the construction, the cars will have to be moved
out of the museum. That might be an opportunity to send the car
down to CI for repair, but then again it may not be a priority.
They aren't going to do any of that because it's not a priority. The Transit Authority is not in the Railfan Business, and like everything else it costs money. I suspect every piece of equipment will be stored at Pitkin Yard, why bother with the long haul? Car G will need extra security being outside of the Museum. I hope it gets stashed away in the shop at CIY.
-Stef
Stef, technically, Money Car G could also be stored at Linden Shops so long as it is kept inside one of the sheds there.
BMTman
I won't play guessing games with where Car G would go, although a certain Branford Colleague of ours in Transit would know. Seriously, without using up all that mileage, G could go into the facility at Pitkin Yard.
-Stef
In reality, if a certain person who is unofficially responsible
for maintenance of the museum fleet wants to bother to fix
whatever problems that R30 has, it'll happen. If he has other
more important things on his plate, it won't.
8506 is being worked on now. It's still in the museum but closed to the public and full of work lights; signs posted on it say it's "being restored."
Of course, the "restoration" could actually be "stuffing and mounting" like 9306...
Sorry, could only react to the words I saw which suggested a PERMANENT closure and disbanding. If the station's being renovated, then a "Museum in exile" could still be setup somewhere. My concern was that it was being "abolished" as a result of budget cutbacks since the state has no budget and various state agencies are borrowing money to keep the lights on.
I think the subway would be a lot more fun if the lights were turned off.
If mysterious pregnancies/illegitimate children is your idea of fun, so be it.
Heh. Back in the days of the R1/9's, "silent running" was a way of life ... and the view out the cab window WAS better with the headlights doused. And as we all know, you lost enough bulbs in a car and they'd go completely dark ... unless you wanted to kick the breaker and have the remaining bulbs go off like a flash camera. :)
Heck, I used to love riding on a prewar train without headlights. You could barely see the rails, and the I-beams became silhouettes with the only illumination coming from the tunnel lights.
Next best thing to a lover's leap. Heh. Here's what got me into doing it whenever I could ... you're following another R1/9 that's "smoking" ... back then, there was a LOT of steel dust in the tunnels and from time to time, there would literally be a "haze" that was hard to see through - hit it with headlights and distant signals could be hard to read in the distance. Douse the lights and you could see 'em ...
Many of the lead cars I took out didn't have working headlamps anyway but I enjoyed having them out myself. After all, once I got across the bridge, it was lights out all the way north to 205th though the return trip after lights out was ... well ... blinding coming out of Grand St but hey, it was still fun.
Oh my God, but why?? This is a real shame. With all the money in the city we can't have a transit museum. This really has gotten me steamed!
Don't these posts indicate that the Museum is closing for reconstruction? A bigger, better Museum, it seems, will open in about a year, right?
Correct me if I'm wrong...
Well, we certainly hope better, but how bigger? Court St station is the same size it was?!
Now there’s a use for a big IND mezzanine!
John
Of course, there's always Heypaul's motorman's cab.:-)
Any idea on what they're actually renovating?
Any idea on what they're actually renovating?
From what I've been told, two biggies are asbestos removal and the installation of air conditioning. I suspect you can add general structural shoring-up where needed, wiring, plumbing, etc. to that list.
My real worry is that once closed, its reopening may be delayed indefinitely due to budget concerns, etc. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't trust those who hold transit's purse strings.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Fortunately, the 100th anniversary of the subway is only a little over three years away, which should provide any needed spur to the MTA to get the museum reopened (not that the renovation should take 3-plus years, but without a major event like that coming up, your fears about being X-ed out by some bean counter down the block at Jay Street could be justified)
Good point there, Peter.
One thing I DO KNOW for certain is that all OFF-SITE programs will continue as scheduled, even after the closing. This means most lectures/slideshows, walking tours and even book signings will likely take place, although at different locations to be announced in forthcoming TA Museum bulletins.
BMTman
I share your concerns. TA is NOT in the railfan business, and let's not forget the "temporary" SERVICE disruptions which became permanent, like the loss of the Culver Express in 1987. I actually have a map from that year which states the express would be resotred once repair work was complete. Never was.
WHAT?! When is this info going to be released to the press?
I was just there yesterday and no one so much as dropped a hint about this closure business...
I suppose this is the long-awaited reconstruction and addition of A/C for Court Street station??
BMTman
You got it.
Will it be announced to the Press? Your guess is as good as mine.
Can anyone confirm/deny this? August is pretty close; it makes no sense that this would be kept an internal secret until the last minute. In fact, I would expect the museum to greatly publicize the closure to get more visitors (unless they're afraid they'll get fewer members - no benefit of free admission).
The renovations are supposed to take 18 months, IIRC.
Confirmed-from sources at the Transit museum-closing date for renovations is August 31st-projected to take at least a year.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks! Now we wait patiently for an official announcement...
story in the boston globe
Uh..Uh..Uh..Isn't this subtalk?
story in the boston herald
story in the boston herald
story in the boston globe
I will be in the Miami area soon, and I looked up the Subways.org website information on the rapid transit system there, and I need more information. Anybody know if the City of Miami has a web page for their system similar to the MTA's? I know that there is no comparison, but it does not hurt to ask. I am particularly interested in what service is available south of downtown Miami, and I saw on a Microsoft Streets CD-Rom map a rail line that seems to parallel US Highway 1. Is there any service that approaches Kendall or Perrine?
I lived in miami for a couple of yrs after moving from nyc to miami.
Here's the website. http://www.metro-dade.com/mdta/
Been on the metro rail and metro mover. It has 21 stations ( a new station is undercontrution and a big yard in hileah. can get a clear view of the yard(south of the yard) from the street(okeechobee rd). big yard ,but not that many cars.
go to the metro mover and get to know ur way around down town. on the metro mover , go to riverpark statio. It's the highest station in mimai. you can get a go view of the metro rail el structure from brickle to gov center. also , you can get a railfan window while stading and while sitting down. take the 1st seat to the right side of the train. Hope this help you.
Opps Wrong st , the yard is next to nw 24 st and miam dary rd.
Here's a areal pic.
http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn%2Ftwn-map_results&uid=uas2l2q1s655t8ld%3Az0dwra5fr&SNVData=3mad3-96%2Chr%253bas5a15%253d%253dy2lu7w%252495-dut%253bvj%257cs0w%2Cbb6%257c_%255bu2n%2529urw%255dD%252bIYDSYVBPMJ%252bCE%2526%252b%2519J%2512%2512S%2513V%2540%252b%2519N%2540%252b%2511E%253a%2528_%253dGG_14yl9y%2528.56aa5r%2528l%25241w-u.wf7%253bxcx5sf7.grfe%257cs%2524jdvnd%257c%255b9u2.9w1%255dJ%252bQZJDXPXVSM%252bN%2515%253a%252bMD%2513NDVP%2526%252bUC%2526%252b%2510F%25247wv%2528u&pcat=&aphoto=1&MAP_AB_LABELS=&WORK=&mouse_mode=zoomin&map.x=195&map.y=393
Don't live in miami anymore.
NYC Subway #1
THANKS!
Would you know where the construction is going on? I was there in May and did not see any work being done. Could it be the line extension that's going the Miami Airport?
Thanks,
Paul
BTW - Thanks for the view from above. I'll have to remember that address for next time I'm down there.
http://www.co.miami-dade.fl.us/transit/metrorail/map.htm
I'll ask my friend in miami to pass by there. it start at okeechobee station. see the map in the above link.
here's the contrution info
http://www.co.miami-dade.fl.us/transit/future/palmetto.htm
Thanks for link. The project is a good idea since the Palmetto is mostly packed everyday including the weekends. I95 is the same as well.
By the way, does the Tri-Rail line have a web page?
http://www.tri-rail.com/
You are fantastic! Thanks!
Yep. It's at http://www.tri-rail.com/
Does Miami Metro rail have its own website
Read some of the other postings to this thread. The assistance of the other subtalk guys was fantastic. You will be surprised to find out what you can learn. I even found a website that gives maps, traffic reports and other vital information, and that is thanks to a subtalk buddy who told me about Miami-Dade Co transit's web page and then mentioned mapquest in his information. You have to go to:
http://www.co.miami-dade.fl.us/transit/
I read in Tri-Rail's web page that the line is being double tracked - which means that they are preparing for increased traffic. I will ask the folks in the Miami Dade area if they intend to consider extending the hours of operation as well. A side note - mapquest and other mapping web pages give detailed aerial views of many important sites in the USA - and others overseas can look at this information as well as I can. Sometimes I want to tell the folks in the Pentagon "Custer, you are selling GUNS to the INDIANS! "
They have a commuter rail system called Tri-Rail
As most of us know this board was originally put up for NYC subway topics but since then it has grown considerably and has postings for other systems as well.
What I would like to request fo my fellow SubTalkers is that if you are posting a thread/topic on something other than the NYC Subway (i.e. Boston, Philadelphia etc.) is that you put the name (or acronym) of the system in the title (MBTA, CTA, WMATA etc.)so that we know what you are talking about and be able to take your posting in the proper context.
Someone posted something that started with "T". A lot of people do not know that the "T" is the acknowledged symbol of the MBTA system in Boston. In NYC subway terms "T" is the old symbol for the West End line.
Thanks for listening.
Allan
Got megaphone?
As one of the non-New York readers of this message board, I really appreciate it when people specify what city they're talking about, because it helps me to find posts about my home subway more easily.
Mark
This morning as I got to 42nd St (6th Ave) from the #7 train for my usual ride on the F to Jay Street, an A train (R-38s) pulled in. It had obviously been re-routed down 6th Avenue, but I knew it would end up at Jay Street one way or the other, so I got on. It switched to the local track just before 34th St (I was hoping for the dash and then the switch before W4th) and made all F stops to W4th St. The conductor kept saying "A train on the F line". At W4th there was mass confusion, since no one knew which way we were going to go to Brooklyn. The conductor kept saying "A train on the F line", but a faintly-heard station announcement seemed to mention Spring St. Riders kept getting on and off not knowing; the conductor kept shouting "Clear the doors, A train on the F line" but people were still not sure what the route would be. Eventually, the riders became convinced that we were following the F route, so those who wanted F stops stayed on while those who wanted A stops got off. The conductor finally closed down and sure enough we ended up stopping at Spring Street, to the great disappointment of many on board. (Those left behind at W4th never knew they could have remained on that train.) After leaving that station, the conductor apologized, saying that she had only repeated the information that she had.
Of all the complaints that riders have about the subway system, the lack of timely accurate announcements has to be the most aggravating. With all the radio contact, how could the conductor not know which way the train was going? And didn't the motorman have to know from the line-up at W4th, and couldn't (s)he have made it clear? A re-routed train always causes some delays, but the delays are compounded by the confusion caused by the lack of information. Lag time at stations increases because of rider indecision about whether to board or get off the train.
In case any Transit officials are listening, the last car of the train was either 3794 or 3974.
I always get the impression (and please forgive me on this) that some (not all) conductors have selective hearing, that is, when they are concentrating on getting the doors closed and getting the train in motion their ears "shut off" so that any announcements either on train or station PA or even on the radio are ignored.
I do put the blame partially on Control Center or the Tower Operator for not making sure that the train crew has received and understood the route change. T/O's are supposed to make sure that they and their conductor are in communication with each other on things like this.
Question: Do the train operators operate the track switches ahead of them or is there some massive computer somewhere that handles all of that. Seems like if the first is true a confused operator could take you just about anywhere.
Motormen and Conductors cannot control the movement of switches. There are tower operators in either master towers or smaller towers near the station in question. Like for example lets say a E train is on the local track stopping at Van Wyck blvd. The signal says main route green over green on it. I believe union turnpike or Continental controls that signal. Bottom green sends u up to hillside avenue. lets say that the interlocking request buttons don't work or something. U get on the radio and request "Can i have the lineup"?
then The tower operator will notice his/her mistake and switch it. After all, if u say something like hey i am a Echo(E Train) not a Fox(F), u will get the Tower operator into trouble, because giving wrong lineups can get u written up. After all, supervision might be listening. As a matter of fact, i heard a story from a Motorman on the R line. He went express for some reason up to Roosevelt Jackson heights station. Then he was supposed to go local to continental, the tower operator gave him a bottom green which would have sent him express. he calls the tower operator over to the train and says "I'll take that lineup if you want me to!!" The tower operator was like "WHOA" "Thanks you saved my job"! He then changes the lineup from bottom green to red, to bottom yellow which is correct for a switch.
Umm, What about towers that are on AUTOMATIC??
50th Street (6th Ave) is one such and "What you punch is What you get". So if the T/O punches wrong and does not catch it, it is 100% the T/O's fault (well until the Union blames the punch box wasn't working right).
A couple of years ago, I heard that a T/O punched in the wrong lineup at Rockefeller Center on 6th Av. The F train got as far as 21/Queensbridge. The passengers were discharged and the T/O had to go back the way he came. He probably got yelled at by the tower op.
No, he got more than being yelled at if he took the wrong lineup.......
>>>>>E train is on the local track stopping at Van Wyck blvd. The signal says main route green over green on it. I believe union turnpike or Continental controls that signal.<<<<<
The switches at Van Wyck Blvd are controlled by Parsons-Archer Tower.
>>>>>>After all, if u say something like hey i am a Echo(E Train) not a Fox(F), u will get the Tower operator into trouble, because giving wrong lineups can get u written up.<<<<<<<<
You can only get into trouble if the wrong lineup is actually accepted. By saying something over the radio such as the above statement would only result in some embarrassment on the part of the Tower Op.
by the way, the only reason some Conductors don't tell you is because they don't know yet! A couple of weeks ago, when the R was running to Jamaica Center, the Conductor said this "Manhattan bound R Train, next stop is Van wyck blvd". "At this time we do not know which way we are going to manhattan, as soon as we know, we will let you know, we regret the delays". The Conductor didn't know until we got into 36th street and we waited one minute for the lineup. We got a bottom green and went thru the 60th street tube as the next stop was Queens plaza. And sometimes the Conductor cannot know or The Motorman won't know until the train moves. Here are 2 perfect examples. Lets say a Southbound E at 50th street. Of course the Homeball is going to say bottom yellow at all times. Recieving a bottom green sends you into 42nd lower level. watch your lineup!!! So lets say u might go express. You will not now until you leave 50th street then u pass the bottom yellow and then recieve a bottom green at the next homeball.
Another example is say your on a 2 at 149th 3rd avenue. There is no homeball telling you which way your going. The Tower has not called you yet. Your Conductor says the next stop is Jackson avenue, but when u get outside you get a Express lineup!!!
so sometimes you never know until its too late!!!
Actually, at 50th st downtown, there are two signals for determining express-local.
Local Line-up:1st - G/Y | 2nd - R/R
Exp Line-up:1st - G/G | 2nd - G/Y
Of course the Homeball is going to say bottom yellow at all times. Recieving a bottom green sends you into 42nd lower level. watch your lineup!!!
Not any more. D3 through 42nd-lower is permanently out of service (switch clamped diverging to express). Yellow at 23-ball and you're going local, Green you're express.
As to the Bronx, isn't that a what-you-punch-is-what-you-get scenario? I'm sure it is southbound at 14L.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
D3 through 42nd-lower is permanently out of service (switch clamped diverging to express).
I wouldn't classify that as "permanently" - given the MTA's costs to maintain a switch (periodic inspection, etc.) it's either "long-term temporary" or "waiting for the switch to be removed". And the last time I checked, the 3rd rail was still on down there and the signals were lit.
>>>>>>>>>I do put the blame partially on Control Center or the Tower Operator for not making sure that the train crew has received and understood the route change. T/O's are supposed to make sure that they and their conductor are in communication with each other on things like this.
In this instance, neither is at fault. It is the fault of the C/R for failing to make the proper announcement, but even more at fault is the T/O for failing to notify his C/R about the route change, and for failing to make a corrective announcement himself. Dumbkopf's.
For anyone who thinks that the TA is not making a big deal of the upcoming changes just take a look at the MVMs. One of the screens announces the changes in full color so it cannot be missed.
The TA has spent over a million dollars in its Ad campain on the switch. Talking to the TSS at 50th St. Tower, he will report to 34th Street Monday to help customers make transfers back to 6th Ave.
His comment on the million dollar advertising campain is people won't listen until they arrive at Canal Street Monday morning >G<.
According to an article in the Queens edition of today's Daily News, Gene Russianoff said something very similar "This is very complicated stuff. But for most people, they're not going to listen until they have to".
I agree 100%. Over the years I have seen people look at service change notices and make a comment but never remember them until they get inconvenienced by the change.
I hope that TSS gets plenty of sleep the day before because it will be pure pandemonium on Sunday and even worse on Monday.
I think the tss is gona need a fuck of alot of coffe and crank on the 23.I remember when theyed did work on the bridge in 1995.Alot f people were extremey pissed when the D wasn't running.When I go back to work on Monday it's gona be PURE HELL.
Ah the advantages to a Subway LAN/WAN, the MVM's use NT Workstation 4.0 you know...
And they are very unreliable. The other day I spoke to as MVM maintainer who advised me (off the record) that he likes the machines since they break down often and ensures his job. I was advised they jhave a software problem (not Windows Problem).
A MVM cannot take transit cheks but your friendly neighborhood Station Agent Can. Can the MVM issue block tickets or G.O. tickets-- NO!!
Can the MVM look at the cutomer and give travel direction based on perceived notions on the customer's level of physical fitness (ie-can they walk a long distance, up and down stairs or would they like an across-the-platform transfer.) Can the MVM see they have a stroller, luggage or packages and want an easier transfer--NO!!
A MVM cannot take transit cheks but your friendly neighborhood Station Agent Can.
Completely useless as there is now a Transitchek Metrocard.
Can the MVM issue block tickets or G.O. tickets
Waste of resources to do that anyway. The Metrocard can automatically give additional free transfers.
Can the MVM look at the cutomer and give travel direction based on perceived notions on the customer's level of physical fitness (ie-can they walk a long distance, up and down stairs or would they like an across-the-platform transfer.) Can the MVM see they have a stroller, luggage or packages and want an easier transfer--NO!!
This is a stupid statement as the MVM can't give travel information at all. For that there is the Travel Information Hotline.
If you can find a working pay phone in a deserted station at 2am!
As far as Transit Chek being useless I see kits if them. They are simpler for empoloyers since this allows transit discount for riders of any rail , bus or ferry.
So are you the resident expert now on Transit Affairs?
Let's See-
Subway Buff Says: A MVM cannot take transit cheks but your friendly neighborhood Station Agent Can.
You Say: Completely useless as there is now a Transitchek Metrocard.
My comment is not every person is getting a Transit Chek MetroCard, so someone it'll be up to S/As to take them. Is someone going to try and convince every employer in this town to give up use of the TransitChek? No!
Subway Buff Says: Can the MVM issue block tickets or G.O. tickets
You Say: Waste of resources to do that anyway. The Metrocard can automatically give additional free transfers
What card do you know that gives additional free transfers? Last time I checked, the customer was entitled to one transfer, from either subway to bus, or bus to subway, not much more. And yes, you can pay for up to 4 people on one farecard, and they are entitled to ONE free transfer. The Unlimited Card will enable customer to take multiple rides, but it is not designed for passing back to others. Whatever the case maybe, I seriously don't think they're about to change MetroCards to lose money.
Subway Buff Says: Can the MVM look at the cutomer and give travel direction based on perceived notions on the customer's level of physical fitness (ie-can they walk a long distance, up and down stairs or would they like an across-the-platform transfer.) Can the MVM see they have a stroller, luggage or packages and want an easier transfer--NO!!
You Say: This is a stupid statement as the MVM can't give travel information at all. For that there is the Travel Information Hotline
This is not a stupid statement as my colleague is trying to make a point. The MVM doesn't give out travel information and not everyone uses the travel hotline. At least S/As try to give out accurate information, what's the sense of dealing with a hotline that may just give the same information to everyone, regardless of a physical ailment/impairment they may have?
Some of us value our jobs, and if Transit has it's way, we might as well be out of the job. I for one don't want to lose my job and no one else does either. So if my colleague decides he wants to pose an argument for having S/As in the booth over an MVM it is his right.
You don't have a right to say it's stupid, because you're not in our shoes. At least you don't have to worry about losing a job.
Disagreeing is one thing, but saying it's stupid is a put down.
-Stef
Some of us value our jobs, and if Transit has it's way, we might as well be out of the job. I for one don't want to lose my job and no one else does either. So if my colleague decides he wants to pose an argument for having S/As in the booth over an MVM it is his right.
No one's job is at any risk. At some point the station agents might be relieved of fare-sales duties and reassigned into a customer-service role. They'll still have their jobs. So there's really no reason to be concerned.
Peter,
I think you are right - on paper. The TA will at some point find an excuse to reduce the # of Station Agents down to one per station and then eventually one per grouping of stations.
One arguement that was never stated (at least I never saw it) is that once a station booth area is unmanned (unpersonned?) then what is there to prevent anyone from jumping over or ducking under the turnstiles? They could lose big $$$$ because of that.
As for the RR Clerks becoming Station Agents and not work in the booth. I like the idea generally but from some of the Clerks I have seen or dealt with I think that they would never survive dealing with the public w/o that partition to protect them. Not all of them can be like subwaybuff (who I think would do great in face to face dealings).
What about providing a hologram of a station agent? :0)
"please state the nature of your travel"
Thanks for the compliment. I already provide face-to-face assistance at WTC,Newark Penn, NY Penn(The RR Station and subway), Times Square Complex, Canal Street Complex among other locations. I often accompany "lost" individuals to their train before back tracking to my original destination. AT times I am
"leading a group of 5-6 customers to the same destination or two different destinations stopping the group at the turn off to the first location and then resuming the trip to the second location.
Another point to consider with having us outside the booth is robbery and assault on ourselves. In the booth we have a high tech lock, bullet resistant glass, a slide out tray("Deal Tray") and a fire, smoke, emergency alarm system.
I can forsee someone luring us to as remoter part of a station and then leaving their accomplice free to commit a crime in our original location or to hurt us in the remote area. A radio if we are issued one can fail and we can be hit over the head or with acid thrown at us.
What if someone you know personally were attacked in the subway and we were lured elsewhere . What if you needed help and we were writhing on the floor after having acid thrown at us. What is a loved one were working for Transit. Would you still say so what?
I do respect differing opinions even though I do disgaree with the opinions
Another point to consider with having us outside the booth is robbery and assault on ourselves. In the booth we have a high tech lock, bullet resistant glass, a slide out tray("Deal Tray") and a fire, smoke, emergency alarm system.
I can forsee someone luring us to as remoter part of a station and then leaving their accomplice free to commit a crime in our original location or to hurt us in the remote area. A radio if we are issued one can fail and we can be hit over the head or with acid thrown at us.
Out-of-booth station agents will be at no higher risk than ordinary riders because they won't handle money. Are you trying to say that being exposed to the same risks as John Q. Public is unacceptable? If so, that attitude won't win the agents much public support - there might well be a big call for "re-engineering."
It is not unacceptable. I was just expressing concern that the public might not know where in the station we might be roaming.I dont care if I am outside the booth. I care about the public knowing where we are.Tjhey dont want to roam an entire station hoping to find someone.
What card do you know that gives additional free transfers? Last time I checked, the customer was entitled to one transfer, from either subway to bus, or bus to subway, not much more. And yes, you can pay for up to 4 people on one farecard, and they are entitled to ONE free transfer. The Unlimited Card will enable customer to take multiple rides, but it is not designed for passing back to others. Whatever the case maybe, I seriously don't think they're about to change MetroCards to lose money.
The computer can easily be programmed to allow additional transfers during a GO or a reroute. Just because it isn't done now doesn't mean it shouldn't be.
This is not a stupid statement as my colleague is trying to make a point. The MVM doesn't give out travel information and not everyone uses the travel hotline. At least S/As try to give out accurate information, what's the sense of dealing with a hotline that may just give the same information to everyone, regardless of a physical ailment/impairment they may have?
What she said was too much information. There is no need to specify that the MVM can't give information based on a person's physical condition because it can't give any information at all.
Some of us value our jobs, and if Transit has it's way, we might as well be out of the job. I for one don't want to lose my job and no one else does either. So if my colleague decides he wants to pose an argument for having S/As in the booth over an MVM it is his right.
Don't you have a no layoff clause?
I can understand your desire to keep your job, but it is completely out of self-interest (nothing wrong with that), not out of concern for the passengers, for whom the subway exists in the first place.
Even if you were in favor of unmanned stations, you would suppress that desire for obvious reasons.
If there is a disabled train for 2 hours, you can't just reprogram a metro card. You hand out BLOCK TICKETS. If you are within fare control how is your card going to be updated??
You get a BLOCK TICKET.
Block Tickets are for emergancy use not G.O's
Look, the card has a record of being used, all a person has to do is select the appropriate computer option as soon as word of the BLOCK reaches the control center. Metrocards could then be used at the appropriate locations.
Why do you assume nothing in the stations will change if S/A's are eliminated?
Presumably there would be customer service phones, surveillance cameras, and MetroCard swipers. You need a block ticket? Pick up the phone, explain the situation, and swipe your card. Done: you now have a block ticket encoded on your card for the next two hours (or whatever). An entire trainload needs block tickets? Just let everyone in for free across the street for the next ten minutes -- the savings in not having to pay someone to sit around all the time waiting for an occasional problem will easily offset the fares lost in those ten minutes. (Besides, look what happens now. Hundreds of people flood into the station and jam their block tickets into the booth window. Do you really think the S/A is careful to only allow those individuals who had block tickets into the station? No, everyone gets in for free anyway.)
I agree with you, Stef. I'm not a TA employee, but you're right in saying that while we can disagree with each other here, we shouldn't engage in insults and name-calling.
And I certainly hope you don't lose your job!!
Well at this point friend, no one is slated to lose a job. I just feel that the TA could change it's mind at anytime and hand clerks a pink slip if they thought it would be advantageous to do so.
As for disagreeing with someone's remarks I still stand by it. Telling someone you're making a stupid statement is in fact saying you know more than someone else.
-Stef
Read the contract, specifically the "no layoff" clause. As long as that clause is in there, there will be no layoffs.
David
Well that's fine. I hope it stays that way. Call me a cynic.....
-Stef
MVM's have now replaced the window at LI Bus. There are two in service. Sure nice that they have arrived in Nassau county. Hopefully at Roosevelt Field and LIRR next. Also they have the bridge advisories up as well.
MVM's have now replaced the window at LI Bus Hempstead Transit ctr. There are two in service. Sure nice that they have arrived in Nassau county. Hopefully at Roosevelt Field and LIRR next. Also they have the bridge advisories up as well.
Will the window be open at least on a limited basis? Otherwise, where else am I to get LI Bus maps?
I didn't know till a few weeks ago that MVMs used Lan/Wan technology. Then I saw one at 14th/union Square displaying a DOS command line with a high letter (like "R" or something, rather than "C" or "D" for a typical internal drive)
Question on the W Train
I was just at the Broadway line station at W57. The southbound local platform has a new sign saying the W stops on that track basically all times it is running except for the weekday evenings (and the express track says the W stops there at those times). The sign at Lexington Ave says the W stops at 49th Street.
1) Why would the W use the express track during evening rush hours?
Isn't that track going to be busy enough with both Q trains being turned at 57 and B'way?
2) Can the W be swithed back to the local track for the 49th street stop?
Not that this has been posted to death.
The W will switch to the local tracks at 42nd Street. The express tracks at 57th will be used to relay (Q) and trains and having the W switch there would just slow everything down more.
bring it on,baby. gonna take a trip on the last B,D and Q trains this weekend. hope to meet some of you guys out there!!!!!!!
I understand the relay of the Q at 57/Bway, but my point was that the signs installed over the southbound express track at 57 & Bway says that the W WILL STOP AT THE SOUTHBOUND EXPRESS TRACK WEEKDAY AFTERNOONS. My question was why would the W use the express at those times. I would think the express track would be busy enough relaying the two Q's. I don't understand why they would switch the W onto the express on weekday afternoon.
When the W terminates at 57th/7th during evening hours it will use and stay on the express tracks. At that time the - Brighton Express will not be operating so the terminal should be able to handle the traffic.
The Q express is not going to operate during the evening rush hours???? Are you sure? And the W will be running express in Astoria during the evening rush hours, so it will not be terminating at 57/bway. I am still confused..................
<< The Q express is not going to operate during the evening rush hours???? >>
I never said that!!!!
Based on information in the July map:
Rush Hours, Middays and Evenings to 9:30 PM the "W" will operate to Astoria and will stop at 49th St. After 9:30 PM the "W" will terminate at 57th/7th and operate Express in Manhattan and in Brooklyn to 36th St (local from there to Stillwell Av). Weekends service will be between Pacific St and Stillwell Av (Express to 36th St then local to Stillwell Av).
The diamond Q will operate Express in Manhattan: Rush Hours, Middays and Evenings until 9:00 PM.
The circle Q will operate at all times and will be Express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn.
This clear things up?
I think he misunderstood the signs. After 9:30, to about midnight, the W will operate from the express tracks, as it will terminate here. The W will not run on either express track when there are 2 Q's and the W continues north of 57th. This was the same pattern with the B/D/Q yellow lines in 1987/88 (from 4/86 to 5/87, the B ran to Queensboro Plaza on weekends as it did during weekday middays, and the N ran express via bridge, terminating at 57/7).
Yes, Thank you, I think I was confusing "evenings" and rush hour.
Bill
Why not just do what they do at 205th? Use the tracks north of 57th Street for relaying purposes.
NB Q stops at 57th, discharces all passengers, closes up, moves north of the dbl-Xover north of the station, reverses, and comes back into the station on the downtown side to start the trip to Brooklyn?
This seems very logical. However, while I wish I could remember details, someome else answered this question a few weeks ago. Soemthing to do with switches and the unusues north side tracks at Lexington/63rd. Anyone else able to clarify?
That's what I'd like to know! Plus, there are double Xovers just below 57th that would allow W trains to switch from express to local. Then they could bypass 49th without fouling up the Q.
The D relays because it can't turn in the station. Not the case with 57/7. Granted, it's a stupid arrangement, but to relay would require trains be emptied out first. By turning in the station the pax can stay on and reverse direction (not that anyone but a railfan would want to, but this way no TA personnel have to be on hand to speak to people who get lost or screw up and refuse to leave the train).
For the record: I like the idea of relaying north of the station. And, unlike at Brighton Beach or 34st-6th, you have an extra local stop before the next station with a guaranteed across-platform express-local transfer. People who take the express hoping to supercede an R (heading northbound) have a 50/50 shot at pulling in on a convenient platform at 57th.
Let me take a guess. The MTA borchure was remarkable in its lack of precise details.
The Brighton Express will not run weekday evenings. During those hours the West End Express will terminate at 57th St, instead of Astoria.
Currently the last Brighton exp leaves Brighton Bch at 9 and gets back around 10:30. According to the TA on the map, Evenings start promptly at 8PM but the Q is the exception. Will the lose that privilege because of the W?
What does the W have to do with anything?
The Q express will stop running at 9:00. Beginning at 9:30, the W will run express to 57th (bypassing 49th) and terminate there.
According to data on the FTA website the NYCT's subway operating costs are $6.20/car-revenue-mile.
According to the MTA Schedule there are 1124 'N' trains originating at Ditmars every week. Let's assume that they are all 8-car trains.
The one-way distance for the projected extension is approximately 3.5 miles.
Thus the additional weekly operating cost can be estimated as:
$6.20 x (2 x 3.5) x (8 x 1124) = $390,025.80/wk
or
$20,293,145/yr.
That's a pretty gross over-simplification. What percentage of the $6.20 is fixed cost and what percentage is variable?
CG
Vehicle Operations: $2.6
Vehicle Maintenance $1.0
Non-Vehicle Maintenance: $1.6
General Administration: $0.8
The amended figure for operating expense should have been $6.02/car-revenue-mile
This brings the annual operating cost down to: $19.7 million/yr and the weekly cost down to $378,922.86/wk.
I'm using 1998 data that is reported by the National Transportaion Database.
That's interesting -- but you still need to consider fixed versus variable costs. Each of the four items you list has both fixed and variable components.
CG
Not to mention the presence of only one station. The cost vary with the time the train is in service, and stops increase time. Not useful at all.
Not to mention the presence of only one station.
The plans call for 3 stops: Marine Air Terminal; Central Air Terminal and US Air Terminal.
The cost vary with the time the train is in service, and stops increase time.
OK, we'll play it your way.
The average is 18.4 revenue-vehicle-miles/revenue-vehicle-hour. This means that the operating costs are:
$6.02 * 18.4 = $110.678/revenue-vehicle-hour.
How fast will the trains be going, including stops? They've got 3 stops and a right angle turn. Say 20 mph? So the round trip time will take 7/20 = 0.35 hr.
There are stil 1124 8 car trains per week.
The weekly cost will be:
$110.678 x (8 x 1124) x 0.35 = $348235.79/wk
The yearly operating cost will be:
$348235.79 x 52 = $18,112,941/yr.
Not useful at all.
My estimate was $19.7 million based on revenue-miles. The estimate based on revenue-hours is $18.1 million. Both are in the same ballpark.
"My estimate was $19.7 million based on revenue-miles. The estimate based on revenue-hours is $18.1 million. Both are in the same ballpark."
Except that you're the only one playing in that ballpark. I've posted my explanation elsewhere.
Whether you calculate based on revenue-vehicle-miles or revenue-vehicle-hours, you still need to take into account the fixed and variable costs. Does the cost of general administration (Jay Street) go up proportionately to having 7 more track miles? -- probably not -- it may not go up at all. Operations? -- also, probably not as you still have the same number of yards, towers and terminals. I'd assume vehicle maintenance has both fixed and variable costs -- others here are better served to answer than me, but I'm guessing that some maintenance is performed on a "once a year" or "once a month" basis while other maintenance is "every X miles". I'm assuming that Non-Vehicle maintenance is essentially tracks and stations. If you calculate a ratio of new mileage to existing mileage, or new stations to existing stations (or better, some informed guess as to a proper weighting of both) do you come anywhere near your original projection?
CG
Whether you calculate based on revenue-vehicle-miles or revenue-vehicle-hours, you still need to take into account the fixed and variable costs.
If the TA ceased all operations (zero revenue-miles) and abandoned all its facilities, what would its operational costs be? Pretty close to 0, I'd think.
In some operations not all vehicle-miles may be revenue-vehicle-miles. An efficient operation would show a higher percentage of revenue-vehicle-miles to vehicle-miles. This would be reflected in a lower operating cost per revenue-vehicle-mile.
Does the cost of general administration (Jay Street) go up proportionately to having 7 more track miles? -- probably not -- it may not go up at all.
Adding more track miles, more revenue-miles, while keeping the same schedule will require more trains. More trains will require more personnel - both operating and maintenance. The proportion of additional personnel and cars will be roughly the same as that for the additional revenue-vehicle-miles. There are administrative expenses associated with additional equipment and personnel.
One would assume that a good proportion of the GA cost associated to operations is fare collection. It certainly cannot be characterized by vehicle operation or maintenance. Moreover, these will be prestige stations, so one should not expect to see iron maidens. Also, there will be more single fare transactions taking place, which means increased costs than a normal station.
Operations? -- also, probably not as you still have the same number of yards, towers and terminals.
Actually, they are planning to add a yard on airport property as part of the extension.
If you calculate a ratio of new mileage to existing mileage, or new stations to existing stations (or better, some informed guess as to a proper weighting of both) do you come anywhere near your original projection?
The additional costs that I project are running about 1% of the current operating costs of $1.9 billion. They will be adding 3 new stations or 0.64% of the current total of 468. They will be adding 3.5 new route miles or 1.5% of the current total of 230. I'd say that my projection comes pretty close, wouldn't you?
"Adding more track miles, more revenue-miles, while keeping the same schedule will require more trains. More trains will require more personnel - both operating and maintenance. The proportion of additional personnel and cars will be roughly the same as that for the additional revenue-vehicle-miles."
Again, your assumption, unproven. An extension's added costs depends on whether it includes branches, staffing of additional stations, towers, yards etc. Clearly, LGA will be adding stations, and fairly close together. You've mentioned a plan for a new yard. Fine.
Can I make a sugggestion here? Since it isn't clear you really know how this is calculated, why not write the TA and ask them how they would do it? I can assure you somebody would get back to you. Post the answer here, and critique it if you like.
At least then we could apply a reality check to this. You have enough time to post to this site. By definition, you have the time to write a polite query to MTA.
Do you want me to send you a first-class stamp?
(Actually, they are planning to add a yard on airport property as part of the extension.)
I don't know if your information is accurate, but if it is they should run the train out the other end of the airport, on the water side of the Grand Central, and on to Flushing and the College Point Industrial Park, as I suggested. They could build a connection and use the Corona Yard.
(My estimate was $19.7 million based on revenue-miles. The estimate based on revenue-hours is $18.1 million. Both are in the same ballpark.)
That's about $50,000 per day. At current rates ($1.37 pay per ride at 11 for 10), you'd need 18,000 round trips per day to cover that in full. I think that's very doable, especially with bus transfer from local neighbhoods. Of course, costs have increased since 1998, but the fare is bound to increase as well.
And again, I don't think the marginal costs is equal to the average cost of the system, which includes yards, etc. And the marginal cost per ride is much lower off peak than at peak hour, since much of the system's track capacity is car fleet ought to be charged to peak hour users. Airports generate off-peak trips, though their peak traffic is also substantial.
...you'd need 18,000 round trips per day to cover that in full. I think that's very doable,
What do you base this on?
(...you'd need 18,000 round trips per day to cover that in full. I think that's very doable,
What do you base this on?)
Dividing $18.1 million by 365 by $1.37 by two.
What makes you think that 18,000 round trips /day are likely from LGA?
18,000 / 24 = 750 riders per hour. Of course, overnight usage is much lower, so let's call it 1,000 per hour for 18 hours a day and nobody during the 6 hour overnight. Just for starters.
Assuming 10 minute headways, you have 12 trips per hour -- 6 in, 6 out. So you need 83 passengers per train from 6AM to midnight to reach 18,000. 83 per train ~sounds~ more achievable than 18,000 per day, though there basically the same thing.
Of course, it's my opinion that there are flaws in the revenue per passenger assumption that went into the determination that 18,000 passengers per day provides sufficient revenue.
CG
How would one compare possible LGA demand with O'Hare, which has 3 times the number of flights and passengers?
Or maybe we could compare it to Midway, Chicago's smaller airport, served by CTA's Orange Line.
Mark
Midway has 67% of the number of flights and 57% the number of passengers.
Midway might be a better comparison, as many O'Hare is a hub for both United and American as well as an international gateway. A significant percentage of the passenger load at O'Hare never leave the airport. LGA is probably more similar to Midway in terms of trip originations/terminations.
For May 2001, the Midway airport had 8,247 entries on weekdays and about 2,910 per day on weekends. So that's an average of 6,722 per day. If you assume that there is one arrival for each entry you get 13,444 passengers per day. Scale up by 100/57 and you get about 23,000 as a projected LGA load (if you use 100/67, the number is about 20,000).
For those that are interested, O'Hare averages 8,400 entries per day (averaged over weekdays and weekends).
Obviously, the limitations on the above analysis and on the rest of our work in this exercise are significant -- but it's interesting, at least to me.
CG
The revenue per ride is considerably less than $1.37 if you're counting bus transfers among the 18,000.
CG
Yes. Moreover, while average variable cost is a better approximation of marginal cost than average total cost is, all other things being equal, I would rather see someone actually identify the elements of the marginal cost, estimate the value of each as closely as possible, and then add them up.
Of course you assume that the additional cost will be added linearly. Is this the way to calculate system expansion costs?
I would think the way to do it is to take the overall system condition assuming the extension is built, then calculate the cost per revenue mile. Why? Because the extension will not reflect the different operating conditions throughout the system.
For example, you have old and new track throughout the system. Old and new switches. Facilities and subway cars in various states of repair. Now, the $6.20 reflects all that, presumably. The new extension will include new track, signals and structure, in mint condition to begin with. Also, new track layout etc. etc. So the costs of operating over this line will likely be much less than the cost of operating over older sections of track. On the other hand, we concede that capital costs (for building) have gone up over inflation.
Does your method account for all this?
You claim to be an experienced NASA engineer. If so, you know better. If you're not, well, this is Subtalk, and nobody is going to check up on you...
Of course you assume that the additional cost will be added linearly.
No, I assumed that operating costs are proportional to vehicle-revenue-miles or in the case of my reply to Mr. Larry Littlefield to vehicle-revenue-hours.
Is this the way to calculate system expansion costs?
The NYCT leopard will not shed its spots. The system is runn pretty much the same throughout, especially one that represents a minor increase to an existing service.
I would think the way to do it is to take the overall system condition assuming the extension is built, then calculate the cost per revenue mile.
You want to have an educated estimate of the operating costs BEFORE the extension is built. You method appears to build first, calculate the operating cost consequences later.
Why? Because the extension will not reflect the different operating conditions throughout the system.
For example, you have old and new track throughout the system. Old and new switches. Facilities and subway cars in various states of repair. Now, the $6.20 [$6.02] reflects all that, presumably. The new extension will include new track, signals and structure, in mint condition to begin with. Also, new track layout etc. etc. So the costs of operating over this line will likely be much less than the cost of operating over older sections of track.
The non-vehicle maintenance portion is $1.60, which I presume includes ROW maintenance. It would be keeping with NYCT practice to reduce this to 0 and wait for a derailment. :-) This would bring the annual operating cost down to $14.5 million until judgement day. However, a fair portion of this extension will be out of doors and subject to the elements. It will age pretty quickly, because it will be fairly close to salt air for most of its length.
On the other hand, we concede that capital costs (for building) have gone up over inflation.
NO capital costs are included. This is strictly operations - not reimbursible via FAA funding.
Does your method account for all this?
Using averages to get an estimate is a fairly standard engineering practice. Most times the differences between this approach and a detailed and itemized estimate are not worth the added cost of the latter.
"You want to have an educated estimate of the operating costs BEFORE the extension is built. You method appears to build first, calculate the operating cost consequences later."
On paper, sure. I want to perform the estimate assuming I had constructed the line. The pile drivers aren't assigned yet at this point.
"Using averages to get an estimate is a fairly standard engineering practice. Most times the differences between this approach and a detailed and itemized estimate are not worth the added cost of the latter."
Not a good assumption to make, esp. when you're out of your field of specialty.
"Using averages to get an estimate is a fairly standard engineering practice. Most times the differences between this approach and a detailed and itemized estimate are not worth the added cost of the latter."
Not a good assumption to make, esp. when you're out of your field of specialty.
The Weak Law of Large Numbers applies to all statistical problems.
I'll repeat what I said in a different post: You have time enough to post here. Use a little time to write a polite letter to MTA and ask how they would calculate the operating cost of an LGA Extension. Propose your method. Even if they don't give you an exact answer in return, they'll tell you whether or not they agree with yours, and why.
Then post it here, and critique it.
Is it just me or are more booth clerks are running out of subway map more often.And when are the new maps coming in?
Its is the more tourists,since its summer.
My thoughts exactly. As much as the TA tries to stock the booths some run out much faster than others (Grand Central, Times Square, Penn Station, South Ferry just to name a few).
The new ones should be arriving within a week (my guess) although I was able to get the July 2001 Multilingual through another source (don't ask please). The best place to try is the Transit Museum store in Grand Central or the Information booth in the terminal itself.
((The new ones should be arriving within a week (my guess) although I was able to get the July 2001 Multilingual through another source (don't ask please). The best place to try is the Transit Museum store in Grand Central or the Information booth in the terminal itself.))
MULTILINGUAL????
That sounds great, any way you could obtain one for me? (note that i'm not asking *how* you got it)
-West End Scott, who is not a native spanish speaker but likes to read the service notice signs in spanish anyway...
I have ALL THE ANSWERS for you guys. Multi-lingual editions of the new July 2001 MTA "The Map" are available at the Transit Museum store in GCT! I was there at lunchtime and they had a ton of them. I was there at 7:30pm and they had about 1/4 of them left. Now I'd like to find some non-multi-lingual versions.
"Is it just me or are more booth clerks are running out of subway map more often?"
Just out of curiosity, when did you run out of subway maps?
whats going to to the #3 in august
Where do they keep the wreckage today.Is it still at Concourse or is it already scraped
The car that was split in two, 1437, is gone. It was scrapped at Concourse Yard earlier in the year. 1439 was put on a barge a few short months ago and departed 207th Street. 1436 is still at 207th Street. I am unaware of the whereabouts of 1435 and 1440. 1435 was last sighted at 207th St this year but I have no knowledge if it was barged out with 1439. 1440? Is it at 207th Street?
-Stef
Just wondering...why have they kept these cars almost 10 years later?
Is it for insurance or investigative purposes or sonething along those lines?
I guess for srapping
Litigation (lawsuits) could keep these wrecks for many years onward. As Train Dude has pointed out, the R-62s are said to be leased (that's my understanding of it), so this may be another reason for keeping wrecked cars around for so many years. You can't touch what doesn't belong to you.
-Stef
I expect that they're using R-62As. I believe a previous thread states 4 sets will be stored there.
-Stef
The R62 set are the trains on the 4 right?
Right on...
No, I mean R-62As currently assigned to the 3 Line.
-Stef
whats going to happen to the #3 in august
I wasn't aware anything was going to happen to the #3.
What have you heard that prompted the question?
that the four #3 trains run from 180st instead of 137st in august
ARe they going to be in service from E 180 or run light until Manhattan (135th St). Talk about confusing the public!!!
They will be in service from E. 180th Street. As I said in another thread, I was mistaken in posting that they would be running light from E. 180th Street to 96th Street.
David
Perhaps they should be signed as 2 trains, then. An occasional 2 runs to New Lots. Once at New Lots, change the signs.
I asked about that. They'll be signed as #3s from 148th Street to New Lots (after all, the only sign that matters on a given trip is the destination, not the departure point). After they get to New Lots, they will be in regular #3 service to/from 148th Street. I didn't look, but the trainsets that leave E. 180th Street in the morning may not be the ones that go there in the evening.
David
But the destination point does matter in the Bronx, where passengers will be confused seeing a 3 pull in. Some (granted, very few) may have no idea where the 3 runs. Since few passengers in the Bronx are going all the way to New Lots, IMO it should be signed as a 2, at least until 149-GC -- once in Manhattan, I suppose the signs could be changed. (The 3 will be running R-142's by the time this is implemented, right? Changing the signs will be easy.)
(To be sure, this isn't at the top of my list of concerns.)
The #3 line will certainly not be running R-142s in early August 2001, which is when the schedule with the E. 180th Street #3 put-ins is to take effect. As to the destination, first off, how many people getting on in the Bronx are going so far south that it would matter whether the train is a #3 or a #2? Secondly, as stated before, once the train reaches New Lots Avenue, it will be going along the regular #3 line (to 148th Street) all day. Thirdly, Bronx passengers have seen #2 trains signed for New Lots and #5 trains signed for New Lots, even though neither line regularly serves that station. What's one more anomaly added to the mix?
David
As long as the R-62A's are still running on the 3, the point is moot.
The destination isn't the issue at all -- as I said, not many in the Bronx care. But Bronx residents know that the 2 goes to the West Side and the 5 goes to the East Side. Some may not know where the 3 goes.
Since the IRT lines regularly switch south terminals, everyone's used to an occasional 2 or 5 at Utica or New Lots. The IRT lines just about never switch north terminals, though; 3's and 4's are never seen on White Plains Road. IMO, the pattern should continue: a train from E180 to New Lots is a 2 with a change in the usual south terminal, not a 3 with a change in the usual north terminal, since north terminals never change.
true but us bronx residents see a #3 train we will get on it .is still going down the westside .maybe might see a r142 on the #3.the #3 train maybe start down the express track and then pick up #2 passengers
The confusion will occur during the evening rush hour. A train marked 3-E180th St might cause all sorts of chaos. The conductor's explanation over the PA would take longer than the alloted dwell time. A train marked 3-148th St would be even worse at 135th St.
If they get the destination sign to read E 180th St, then they will need to change it twice. Once before the last run of the day at New Lots and again before the first run of the day at E 180th. If they decided to make the train a 2-E 180th St, then they would have to change the signs twice. Once after the first run of the day at New Lots and again before the last run of the day from New Lots.
I don't see any difference in the amount of work required to change signs. Of course, the TA may use its normal operating procedures and have different destinations and routes on different signs within the same train or car. That should keep the public guessing :-)
But why would the train be marked #3 to E. 180th Street? As I have said here several times (and I have confirmed that I am correct), the #3 trains that are going to E. 180th Street will discharge passengers at 96th Street and run light to the yard!
David
As I have said here several times (and I have confirmed that I am
correct), the #3 trains that are going to E. 180th Street will discharge passengers at 96th Street and run light to the yard!
Will it be marked 3-96th St or 3-148th St?
If the crew and any available platform people at New Lots are doing their job properly, 96th Street. IF...
David
No there arent any crews at New Lots. And the signs will probably still be marked as 148St. This is how it is when they go to 137St yard after discharging at 96-Bway.
Just what is that little yard at 148th St. used for anyway - storage only? Any forseeable plans to do any major overhauls or new construction involving it?
The yard at 148th Street is only for storage. It used to have a shop associated with it -- 147th Street, which was the IRT's main shop until operations moved to 207th Street circa 1960.
David
Was that when the connection from the 1/9 opened to the 207th Street yard? When was the connection from the Jerome El to Concourse opened?
Jerome/Concourse. Broadway/207th Street didn't open until the 1980s.
David
I remember seeing the Jerome/Concourse connection active during the late 1960's. The Jerome Ave. trains used to be sent into the D line Concourse yard to use the wash tracks, and a few were checked out in the maintenance building. I even saw a few times during which an A division single car was used to switch and move several B division cars - once I saw it moving what appeared to be an R-9.
Will they run express or local from 180th to 149th?
I'd have to look at the timetable to be sure, but at this point I'd say they'll be locals like the #2 trains.
David
The #3 line have four AM jobs that come out of 137St-Bway right now. Instead of coming out of 137St, these trains will start out of E.180st starting next month.
why are they going to do the rest of the whie plains rd line,before going to 96street
I wrote a fiction story about a Nightmare Commute From Long Island to the Upper West Side.
I would like the Subtalkers to review Either On Subtalk Or on the fanfiction page below.
Link to story.
www.fanfiction.net/sections/originals/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=360018
My trip home was Uneventful till I got off the train In Port Jefferson Station at 9:30 pm, I found a $170 parking ticket on my car for not renewing my Brookhaven Township parking tags on my car. The parking tags expired Yesterday!!
Anyone living in Stony Brook, like the story's narrator, could have avoided this entirely by taking the train from Stony Brook. Parking's free for everyone and never gets full!
"Its 7:45 when I get off the E train at 50th Street.Then I cross over to get the uptown C Train."
There's no way of Crossing over from the (E) to the uptown (C) at 50 St. Could have been at 42 St.
The C platform is right above the E platform at 50th.
But nobody would take the E from 34th to 50th to change for the C. And the E isn't express. The A is the express; it bypasses 50th and stops at 59th, where our narrator can transfer to the C or B across the platform.
There's an 88th Street exit from the 86th Street station -- thus only a two-block walk.
I don't know of a professional camera shop on 89th and Columbus, but I live a few blocks away so I can check it out if necessary.
The Story is Fake, Fictional. the camera shop is fake. i just used the corner for the location.
The first "Q" to run over the MB Braodway side will be the 12:03am out of Stillwell Ave. I looked up this when I got to work at 207 yard Today. Is anyone going to try to get on this train.
Robert
When is the last Q(6th avenue express)train leaving Brighton beach.
When is the last Q(6th avenue express)leaving Brighton beach and when is the first W train leaving Stillwell
I don't know about the "W". I did not look it up.
Sorry.
Robert
ok.Besides.I'm riding the Q from Brighton to 34th street at 1pm on friday.
>>When is the last Q(6th avenue express)leaving Brighton beach<<
The same time the last Q leaves every Friday.
that time in case of doubt is somewhere between 8:50 and 9 PM which gets back to Brighton Bch at around 10:30
So it should hit DeKalb about 12:35 then? Thats where I'm getting on unless I can figure out what the first Souhbound train will be.
12:35 at the earliest
Excellent. Thank you for posting this info.
What about the first Brooklyn-bound Q? Just after midnight at 57/7?
I don't know. I did not see if there was a crew signing it at 57/BW. If there is a crew then one will leave there, if not then the first train there will be the first one out.
Robert
no there's no yard there it'll have to wait for the 12:03 Stillwell to get there
I figured the TA would have a bunch of trains waiting near the north end to go into service at midnight.
Here's a picture of the North Side of the Bridge. Northbound Q train. I took it today. It's not too clear because the windows was dirty.
Picture
Northbound Q train. I took it today. It's not too clear because the windows was dirty.
I must have just missed ya! I was doing the Q across the bridge at about 2:20 this afternoon (took a B back about 3 hours later).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Me too! Me too! There was some guy standing by the front window holding a track map book. I wonder who that was.
(Sorry, I'm in one of those silly moods now. Feel free to ignore me.)
You kidding? You're always silly. Seems like I'm the only serious guy around here. Maybe I should visit at normal hours and not at 2:00am!
LMAO! What's WRONG with you people! By the way, I thought the Bridge change was taking place Monday. Now, I hear Sunday. Did they move it up a day?
Schedule changes on NYC's transit system take place on Sundays. If a line doesn't run weekends, its first day of operation under the new schedule will be a Monday (or Tuesday, if Monday is a holiday).
David
A 12 year old boy picked open the transverse cab door lock on the Broad St. subway. He then opened the motorman's window , stuck his head out, and lost his life when his head hit a column at speed.
Septa says the door was locked, but is shocked at the accident.
There was a lot on TV tonight.
Chuck Greene
I heard on the radio that there were protests against SEPTA today, blaming them for the incident.
Yeah, those BSS cab locks look pretty flimsey. Of course the T/O stand where w/ the storm door open. Maybe the kid learned from bad example. Man, I'd sure hate to be the one that had to clean up the mess? How big was the service disruption?
If the kid is stupid enough to have gone into the motorman's cab, opened the window and then stuck his head out, he got what he deserved. SEPTA should not be responsible for the accident. The only thing that they should do is to make sure that the locks for the motorman's cab are as secure as possible.
#3 West End Jeff
He got what he deserved? Come on now. I wouldn't wish death upon anybody. I agree SEPTA should not be responsible but that's a steep price to pay for being mischevous. Weren't you ever a kid?
Peter Rosa has kind of an interesting point, though. The Darwinian theory. Natural selection, in which nature weeds out those that'll be a burden to the advancement of a species; nature's form of population control, AKA Survival of the fittest.
I mean, think about it - humans are the only species capable of countering natural selection (at least temporarily) through medicine. That translates into overpopulation.
Perhaps we should not be desperately trying to treat and keep alive those with severe diseases, terminal illnesses, birth defects, and mental disorders . . . cruel and cold-hearted?
From an emotional and compassionate standpoint, definately.
From a practical standpoint, definately not!
When all is said and done, though, nature always wins.
I mean, think about it - humans are the only species capable of countering natural selection (at least temporarily) through medicine. That translates into overpopulation.
Perhaps we should not be desperately trying to treat and keep alive those with severe diseases, terminal illnesses, birth defects, and mental disorders . . . cruel and cold-hearted?
Just a few days ago the government of the Czech Republic announced that cigarette smoking is actually a cost-effective habit despite the health risks and related costs. The pension money that doesn't have to be paid when smokers die young far outweighs the added health care burdens. I'll bet this calculation applies in the United States as well, although of course no politician would dare say it.
"Just a few days ago the government of the Czech Republic announced that cigarette smoking is actually a cost-effective habit despite the health risks and related costs. The pension money that doesn't have to be paid when smokers die young far outweighs the added health care burdens. I'll bet this calculation applies in the United States as well, although of course no politician would dare say it."
Before you make a bet like that you need to do a lot of homework. You do realize, of course, that people who die young also do not contribute to the economy, to their fullest potential. So pensions aren't paid out, but productivity is cut, too. After that, add on health care costs. And remember, a large chunk of health care $$ is spent at the end of life (ICU beds, intensive care nursing, surgeons, specialists). Smoking increases the number of people who need more expensive, intensive and chronic care.
I don't see a reason to trust the Czech estimates.
Just a few days ago the government of the Czech Republic announced that cigarette smoking is actually a cost-effective habit despite the health risks and related costs. The pension money that doesn't have to be paid when smokers die young far outweighs the added health care burdens. I'll bet this calculation applies in the United States as well, although of course no politician would dare say it.
Before you make a bet like that you need to do a lot of homework. You do realize, of course, that people who die young also do not contribute to the economy, to their fullest potential. So pensions aren't paid out, but productivity is cut, too. After that, add on health care costs. And remember, a large chunk of health care $$ is spent at the end of life (ICU beds, intensive care nursing, surgeons, specialists). Smoking increases the number of people who need more expensive, intensive and chronic care.
I don't see a reason to trust the Czech estimates.
It's possible that smoking passes the cost-benefit test in the Czech Republic but wouldn't in the United States. From what I've heard, the health care systems in most foreign countries don't pour quite as many resources into end-of-life care as we do here.
As far as lost productivity is concerned, that indeed is an issue, but I suspect that it's not as significant as might be thought. It's my impression that smoking-related deaths are relatively uncommon before age 60 or so, by which time most people are at or near retirement. I would be interested to see some statistics on these issues, as right now I'm basically going by impressions. I'll admit that the statistics might tell a different story.
"It's possible that smoking passes the cost-benefit test in the Czech Republic but wouldn't in the United States. From what I've heard, the health care systems in most foreign countries don't pour quite as many resources into end-of-life care as we do here."
Absolutely correct.
"As far as lost productivity is concerned, that indeed is an issue, but I suspect that it's not as significant as might be thought. It's my impression that smoking-related deaths are relatively uncommon before age 60 or so, by which time most people are at or near retirement."
That depends on a lot of things (family history, genetic predisposition, # of pack-years smoked, roll the dice for a particular patient to see which disease he/she gets etc. ad nauseum).
But also, please note: If the flu sends you home for twice as many days as it should because you're a smoker; if high blood pressure or lung disease forces you to stop working a particular job long before you should have had to, your economic productivity is already dropping even as you incur costs for medicines, doctor visits and hospitalization.
Here is a partial list of diseases smoking contributes to:
Lung cancer (and anywhere else the cancer goes)
Mouth cancer
Cancer of esophagus, stomach, intestines
Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease
Worsened consequences of pneumonia or influenza or common cold
Heart disease, hypertension
Statistically, increased chance of death by fire (does the person smoke in bed?) - this can cause someone else's death as well, and property damage, of course
Now, some good news:
Your risk for these diseases drops nearly to baseline, over time, for the most part if you stop smoking. At least half the benefit happens within the first year of smoking cessation!
I heard Charles Osgood talking about that on the radio yesterday morning;you do know who sponsored that study over there in the Czech Rep???? PHILIP MORRIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The smoke, er, plot thickens!
>>> you do know who sponsored that study over there in the Czech Rep???? PHILIP MORRIS!!!!!!!!!!!!! <<<
The study was not done in in Europe, it was done here in the United States for use by the tobacco companies to counteract the clams by states that cigarette smoking was raising health care costs. It pointed out that if these people did not die early from illness caused by tobacco they would live longer and eventually die from other more lingering diseases which would be more expensive to treat.
As cold blooded as it seems, a 50 year old who dies of cancer costs the health care system less than someone who lives to eighty and during those extra thirty years has a variety of diseases which come along with aging.
Tom
As cold blooded as it seems, a 50 year old who dies of cancer costs the health care system less than someone who lives to eighty and during those extra thirty years has a variety of diseases which come along with aging.
Anecdotal statements of opposite conclusion can also be made.
My nonsmoking grandfather died of liver cancer at age 91, 5 months after diagnosis. He was a cost to the health care system a portion of that time.
My uncle died of emphysema and was so severly addicted to nicotine that he couldn't quit smoking even after being diagnosed. He slept in the living room for 5 years because he couldn't climb the stairs to the bedroom. He was a burden to the health care system off-and-on for several years.
"As cold blooded as it seems, a 50 year old who dies of cancer costs the health care system less than someone who lives to eighty and during those extra thirty years has a variety of diseases which come along with aging."
Really? What about the reduced productivity of that worker before the cancer killed him/her? What about the economic activity he/she couldn't produce until retirement?
>>> Really? What about the reduced productivity of that worker before the cancer killed him/her? What about the economic activity he/she couldn't produce until retirement? <<<
Those are not things for which the states could recover damages. The states were claiming that they incurred additional expenses for medical treatment of smokers. It is realatively easy to add up expenditures made for medical treatment. It would be too much of a speculative stretch to say because someone was less productive the state lost the tax revenues he would have generated.
Tom
Yes, that is harder to quantify. One can, for illustrative purposes, take a few examples, look at earnings and deduce what they would have continued earning at minimum had they stayed healthy (not counting promotions etc.)
>>> . One can, for illustrative purposes, take a few examples, look at earnings and deduce what they would have continued earning at minimum had they stayed healthy <<<
That would work if you were looking for the damages an individual sustained, but it is not true for a state, because if this individual is not earning the money, another one has the job and is paying taxes on his earnings.
Tom
"That would work if you were looking for the damages an individual sustained, but it is not true for a state, because if this individual is not earning the money, another one has the job and is paying taxes on his earnings."
Think population effect, Tom. If more people die early, then we have more people whose economic productivity drops, then is eliminated upon death. The higher the percentage of smokers, the higher the number of people this applies to. This is why smoking adversely affects economic productivity as a whole. Now, those people don't draw pensions after death. But they might draw Social Security disability checks, disability insurance checks and other benefits from funds sustained by the population that's still working.
As much as I wouldn't wish that on anyone either,young people are listening less and less to instruction and have less and less respect for other people and property and unfortunately sometimes it takes a horrible accident like this to teach that type of lesson. Suppose somehow the boy had hit a switch in that cab or hit a hand brake or some other piece of equipment in that cab causing the train to possibly derail and consequently injnure or even kill several passengers??? (maybe some of this scenario coukldn't happen, but I think you get the gist)
That has happened before, unfortunately. Down in SC, Amtrak's Silver Star was thown off the rails at top speed near the capital of Columbia, injuring dozens. Apparently some kids decided to play a trick on the engineer by putting a lead pipe on the track. Don't remember if any passenger died frm that incident.
Or, how about the boy who was runned over by Amtrak's Adirondack, which was coming southbound on the WSRR trestle in W. Harlem? He and a couple of other friends were up on the trestle sraying grafitti.
Sometimes I wonder about kids nowadays. Some of them get out of control and wind up causing a catastrophe.
"Sometimes I wonder about kids nowadays. Some of them get out of control and wind up causing a catastrophe."
How come every mention of kids doing stupid and/or criminal things always ends up talking about "kids nowadays"?!? The lead pipe on the track sounds like the kind of thing kids have been doing for almost two centuries of railroading.
One of my older relatives tells stories from his youth of him and his friends riding home from high school running in unison from one side of the streetcar to the other in order to see if it would tip over. The more businessmen, housewives out shopping, and old people on the streetcar to scare the crap out of, the more likely they were to do it. :^)
Yes I was a kid once too. I probably went to an extreme in my post but, it should be used as an example upon what NOT to do for other kids so they don't get injured or killed because of their mistakes.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
>>>...he got what he deserved. <<<
What an awful thing to say. I'm sure you would be singing a different tune if it was a friend or relative of yours.
Peace,
ANDEE
I probably would be singing a very different tune if it was a relative or friend of mine. Let this tragedy be a painful lesson to others. Never put ANY part of youy body outside of a moving train. You can be seriously injured or killed.
I probably would be singing a very different tune if it was a relative or friend of mine. Let this tragedy be a painful lesson to others. Never put ANY part of youy body outside of a moving train. You can be seriously injured or killed.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
It's tough when a kid is involved.
A 12 year old boy picked open the transverse cab door lock on the Broad St. subway. He then opened the motorman's window , stuck his head out, and lost his life when his head hit a column at speed.
Septa says the door was locked, but is shocked at the accident.
Presumably, at age 12, he hadn't yet made any contributions to the human gene pool (but you can never be sure these days), so this may indeed be a true Darwinian situation.
That kid's parents should have known his whereabouts.
A twelve year old should have limits put on him - no one is trying to place him in a Soviet style Gulag, but he should not be free to go and pick locked doors in the subways. I have a problem with so-called adults who are quick to blame the transit system for injuries that their offspring suffer because of unsupervised mischief. Let them try to make a noise like that in China - the parents would get a bill for the cleanup from the government.
That kid's parents should have known his whereabouts.
Can you remember life when you were 12?
I rode the Broad Street Subway for fun when I was 12 and my parents didn't know where I was.
I have a problem with so-called adults who are quick to blame the transit system for injuries that their offspring suffer because of unsupervised mischief.
So do I.
I don't see the need to assess blame here. The kid made a thoughtless mistake and paid the ultimate price for it.
Yes, and he is no longer around to hear any scolding from any of us. His parents will carry this heartache for the rest of their lives.
>>> That kid's parents should have known his whereabouts. <<<
You must have had a very dull childhood if your parents had you under constant observation when you were 12 years old. His parents may have known he was on the subway, but you expect them to know he was picking a lock. How do they go about that?
By that age I was traveling on inter-city trains and airplanes without an escort. My instructions were to look for the Travelers' Aid booth if I needed help.
Tom
We here in Portland Ore have had a lot of people mostly adults that have been seriously hurt or killed by the MAX light rail cars in the last year,mostly not being aware of the silent running cars,they must have assumed that if you can't hear it then there is no train around,this has also involved cars where the driver just wanted to beat the train result a stupid move on the part of the CAR driver not the motorman of the train,still a 12 year old is a child and he should've been with an adult if the parents knew if he wasn't capable of taking the train,i can't judge anyone only i can say what a waste of a human being....i feel for the parents.
Proper supervision of children by the parents is very important. If a parent feels that their child should not ride the subway alone he should be told not to ride it by himself. There will always be those who ignore their parents warnings and transit employees should be on the lookout for those whom they feel shouldn't be riding on the subway alone
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Generally, not only are the doors to the cab supposed to be locked, but the windows are also supposed to be locked.
So the kid picked open the window lock as well. Real cute for a 12 year old! I'm sorry to see him lose his life, but he sure made a big mistake.
Chuck Greene
According to this article SEPTA knew the locks could easily be picked, and was in the process of replacing them. The article goes on to say that they only admitted they knew the problem after the boy was killed. I'm not sure if that leaves SEPTA liable, but I can hardly blame them for not going public with information like that. It wouldn't actually be in the interests of safety to let the whole world know how easy it is to pick the locks, as then everyone and their brother would be trying to pick them.
Mark
When i was about 12 yrs old i was almost killed by a stupid act involving a B.U.car in the Fresh Pond Rd. yards,my parents never knew what happened.....i was lucky...very lucky.also being with three friends sitting in an old ahs pit while a L.I.R.R. frieght pulled by a steam engine rolled over us,now thats stupid......but when you're a kid then you don't think in terms of safety....only fun,now picking locks or vandalism wasn't in our minds in those days,just having fun as all kids do granted sometimes it was dangerious but we all surived, Question : how close are those poles to the train mentioned in the article ? would one have to lean half the way out of the car to get hit ? Portland will introduce the new light rail cars which will run within very congested areas of the city this Friday,the news stations are telling the public to be aware...as the cars are very quiet...we'll see if the public will listen.
Back around '86 one of the neighborhood kids was killed on the Metro North tracks on the Harlem line paralleling Webster ave in fron of Bronx Park/Allerton Baseball fields. He and a few of his friends were down there putting nickels on the rails to mutilate them. and a train came, he froze and did not get out of the way, and was killed.
Of the gang of 3or 4 that were there, he was the least likely to be down there doing that so it was a shock to the neighborhood; the others there were rude little SOB'S who respected nobody.
Again, supposed the train had derailed????
Only one escalator was in operation this afternoon at the west end of the E/F Lexington Avenue platform. (Yes, the escalators that were replaced a few years ago. Guess the warranty's over.) Some genius had the brilliant idea of having the only working escalator run down. That's a long climb, and I really feel sorry for the guy in front of me dragging luggage up the steps. I think I vaguely heard an announcement recommending that we use the east exit -- not that that would help anyone trying to make the transfer to the 6. To top it all off, a J4J guy was blocking the top of the escalator, handing out pamphlets. I was tempted to throw him down to the platform below but that might have injured some of my fellow passengers.
Please excuse the ignorance of a country bumpkin, but what the devil is a "J4J" guy?
Jews for Jesus
Thank You!
I'm going to have to think about that one for a while!
Translation: Christians masquerading as Jews - the organization is funded largely by the Southern Baptist Convention.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Chris! That explains it. I honestly had never heard of the group.
J4J= SCUM OF THE EARTH!!!! Christians are for Jesus if you believe in Jesus, you are a Christian (a wonderful thing) but if you deny, you LIE and profane BOTH Judaism and Christianity with that LIE.
It seems as though the problems with the escalators at 53rd/Lex are a weekly occurance. Get used to it. It's only going to get worse, before it gets better.
I've only used that station twice in the past year. Fortunately I don't have to get used to it. Do they always run the working escalator down when one is broken?
You'll be glad to learn that all of the escalators ten blocks away at 63rd were working. (The ones between the platforms and the mezzanine, at least. I didn't use the escalator from the street.)
I saw that. I was happy when I saw the escalators were already fixed at 63rd/Lex tonight.
Going into the city earlier today, I did not have any problems at 53rd/Lex, but I can tell you that whenever there is a problem with the regular UP escalator, no one ever does anything about it.
In fact, there are usually about 6-8 TA employees at rush-hour working on the platform at 53/Lex signaling to conductors when they can close the doors. You would think they would be able to get someone to reverse the functioning escalator right away, but unfortunately it does not work that way. One day someone will "fall" or have a heart attack, and the TA will act in a more timely fashion regarding such matters.
I believe only a STATIONS DEPARTMENT Supervisor can start/stop esculators so everyone on the platform works for RTO and can not do that.
But couldn't someone on the platform summon someone who's authorized to fix the broken escalator or switch the direction of the down escalator?
Better yet why not find out where to get the escelator keys yourself and start it!
That would be an EXTREMELY irresponsible thing to do (and Mr. Greenberger does not strike me as the irresponsible type). When an escalator shuts off, it could be due to someone pushing the emergency stop button for no good reason (which happens often, and in this case restarting the escalator would probably do no harm). However, it could also be due to a fault that's been detected by the fault detection system, a fire or smoke condition that's been detected by the fire/smoke detection system, an object caught in the treads, or vandalism (beyond shutting the escalator off). Unless one has been specially trained to investigate, determine the cause, and determine whether restarting is possible and safe, one should not be playing around with an expensive and potentially dangerous piece of machinery. Besides, those keys are not issued to just anyone -- possession of one when not authorized could very well be a crime.
David
Sorry, I've read posts about this stupid f**king rule before. How hard is it to push a stop button, or put a key into a slot to get the sucker moving again. In five minutes you could train anybody to do this safely. C'mon! I'm pro-union, but this particular job-protection b/s is a little out of hand! And let's be realistic. That's what it is, isn't it? Enough people who work for you can do your job, they don't need you any more, now do they? Puleeeeeeeeeeease!
With the Railroad Clerks, er, Station Agents, wandering the station areas instead of being confined to the booths, PERHAPS they will be trained in escalator fault detection and empowered to restart stopped (but not malfunctioning) escalators.
David
Heck, when the new escalators first went active, there were small speakers next to the handrail which used to emit an audio version of the content of the streaming LED announcements overhead. "Face Forward. Don't ride off. Escalators are for passengers only"...etc. That feature only worked for about the first month, and not since. I guess the ADA inspectors only show up at the beginning.
Ah, yes, I suppose ADA requires that inane announcements be spoken as well as displayed!
For all the problems the Main St escalators have, that announcement still works - in English and Chinese!
At Grand Central this morning, I noticed some big yellow posters going up, announcing an escalator closure until sometime in 2002. I didn't catch which one.
All announcements should be in English.
Well, these were. No harm in supplementing the English with some Mandarin or Cantonese.
Then supplement in EVERY language spoken in NYC, or it's pure discrimination.
I don't think its discrimination to accomodate a subway stop in a predominantly Chinese neighborhood with Chinese language information, as long as there is an overwhelming number of people close-by who speak the language. We could get into trouble defining "overwhelming" with respect to foreign language speakers in a given neighborhood, but some discretion can be applied. I think if these types of decisions are made locally, there's no harm. Accomodating people of different cultures with small measures like this is quite the opposite of discrimination, and, indeed, enhances the concept of "local control" that conservatives are always harping about!
I don't think its discrimination to accomodate a subway stop in a predominantly Chinese neighborhood with Chinese language information, as long as there is an overwhelming number of people close-by who speak the language. We could get into trouble defining "overwhelming" with respect to foreign language speakers in a given neighborhood, but some discretion can be applied. I think if these types of decisions are made locally, there's no harm. Accomodating people of different cultures with small measures like this is quite the opposite of discrimination, and, indeed, enhances the concept of "local control" that conservatives are always harping about!
Language-choice issues arise all the time with MVM's. They can display a maximum of four languages, so the TA has to decide what three* will be displayed in addition to Emglish. Neighborhood characteristics presumably are taken into account.
* = or maybe just two, as every MVM I've seen has Spanish in addition to Emglish.
"Local control"? In other words, keep feeding an immigrant population their native language, so they can't learn English, and have a better chance of succeeding in the US.
I was furious when I entered 67th Ave. in Forest Hills, and ALL GO signs regarding the Manhattan Bridge were in Spanish and Chinese. In that case, I felt like the foreigner.
It costs the city big bucks to print in languages other than English. It's not fair that others have to pay to absorb this cost.
My neighborhood is mainly Russian(Forest Hills, 108th st). I have never seen subway signage in Russian. It's not fair that the city does not print signage in their language too, just because Russians have a higher capacity for learning English.
>> In other words, keep feeding an immigrant population their native language, so they can't learn English, and have a better chance of succeeding in the US.<<
So basically, you want the TA to keep it's non-english speaking riders in the dark?
>>I was furious when I entered 67th Ave. in Forest Hills, and ALL GO signs regarding the Manhattan Bridge were in Spanish and Chinese. In that case, I felt like the foreigner.<<
Yeah, that's a slip-up. There should have been some in English too.
>>It costs the city big bucks to print in languages other than English. It's not fair that others have to pay to absorb this cost.<<
Yes it is. How can you say something like that? The money those people pay to get in the subway is used to print signs for them to read. Forgive the TA for giving a damn about their riders.
>>My neighborhood is mainly Russian(Forest Hills, 108th st). I have never seen subway signage in Russian. It's not fair that the city does not print signage in their language too, just because Russians have a higher capacity for learning English.<<
"Higher capacity for learning english?" What the hell are you talking about?!? What kind of stereotype is this? I know a lot of Russians who can't speak english, and a lot of Chinese who can. Please, close you mouth right now, i've never seen any G/O signs in foreign languages, save those big poster G/O signs. I've seen plenty of TA advertisments in Russian. I'm not entirely sure at what you're getting at here, but please take it no further.
This is AMERICA. English is the official language. As such, the NYCTA should print ALL material in the official language of this country.
Sometimes, I see GO posters in another language, and I have to go out of my way to find one in English!!!! I'm sorry, but the NYCTA is taking this sensitivity thing too far.
But using your argument that those who don't speak English still pay the same fare as others, and have a right to have signage printed in their language, what about all those ethnic groups left out?
Koreans? Arabic? Japanese? Most subway signage that is not printed in English, is printed in Spanish. New York is an international city! If the NYCTA is going to print signage in a foreign language, they should print in all languages, or just English. It's just not fare to favor one or two groups, and ignore the rest.
This is AMERICA. English is the official language. As such, the NYCTA should print ALL material in the official language of this country.
Sometimes, I see GO posters in another language, and I have to go out of my way to find one in English!!!! I'm sorry, but the NYCTA is taking this sensitivity thing too far.
But using your argument that those who don't speak English still pay the same fare as others, and have a right to have signage printed in their language, what about all those ethnic groups left out?
Koreans? Arabic? Japanese? Most subway signage that is not printed in English, is printed in Spanish. New York is an international city! If the NYCTA is going to print signage in a foreign language, they should print in all languages, or just English. It's just not fare to favor one or two groups, and ignore the rest.
Agreed. I speak and read several languages (with varying degrees of fluency - medium to NOT) but that's so I can get around in a foreign country, not so I can communicate with someone living here who hasn't troubled themselves to learn our language. Commonality of tongue is an essential part of the definition of a nation, and learning that language is an essential part of what enables immigrants to become Americans; those who cannot be bothered to learn our language can pack up and go home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I speak Spanish. Not fluently, but I am definitely conversational.
I workout in a gym that with a membership that is 90% foreign born, and have lived around people of all backgrounds my entire life. I have no problem with people speaking another language. Heck, I like Mexican wrestling so much, I watch more Galavision than anything these days(That's where my screen name comes from, Lucha Libre AAA cut down to LuchAAA).
But the way I see it is this:
If the TA wants to print signage in another language, the message should ALWAYS BE PRECEDED OR FOLLOWED BY THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. This way, no one will have to go out of their way like I did, to find the same signage in the official language of the USA, ENGLISH!
Actually, we don't have an official language in this country... English is simply the common tongue. I'm not sure how many countries actually do have legislated official languages; Canada is officially bilingual (English and French), although each of its provinces and territories also have their own official languages (Québec has established French as theirs, New Brunswick is offically bilingual, and all the others have selected English). Beyond that I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A lot of countries have their official language, but it does not and will not exsit in this country for one reason-they didn't do it before, and they cannot determine it now. For the multicultral situation in the USA, it seems to be too hard to find out one without any complian from any group of people. If English is the official language in this country and this is the regulation for the immigrants, I think at least some of them cannot enter this country before they cannot speak English. By the way, I agree English should be the priority here.
I'm not suggesting that we limit immigration based on whether or not the person immigrating can speak English. What I am suggesting is that we not pamper those who make the choice to not learn it. Immersion is the most effective technique for learning a language, at any age, and offering information or instruction in another language makes it easier for those who do not choose to learn our common tongue.
I work in a very multicultural environment, with people of many diverse national backgrounds. On my immediate staff I have people who were born and raised on six of the seven continents - Antarctica being the exception - and who speak at least twenty different languages (plus who knows how many different dialects) at home. What enables them all to work effectively together is their knowledge of our common language. Imagine the confusion if we were all speaking different languages. Our employer - a major telecommunications company - would fail, and us along with it. A common means of communication - a common language - is essential for success. We should not pamper those who are too lazy to learn it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One of the things I have noticed over the years about families where English is either the second language or is not spoken at all: By the third generation, the situation has pretty much reversed itself if the family is fully emersed in American life -- the kids speak mostly English and very little of their parents' or grandparents language, because; virtually all the good TV shows their peers like are in English and the same goes for movies, records, most of the books or magazines about pop culture, etc.
Grandma may only speak a few words of English haltingly at best while mom and dad may frature the vernacular when they speak it, but the kids don't want to be left out of all the good stuff, and willingly jump into the English language pool, unless forcably restrained, either by their families (and very, very few immigrants do that) or by misguided school programs that delay emersion later than it should be, since young kids pick up new things incredibly quickly.
True, but many factors have changed all of this.
UNIVISION. TELEMUNDO. GALAVISION. GEMS. Fox Sports in Spanish. RCN TV, El Diario, Hoy, Noticias del Mundo, and other media far too numerous to mention have slowed the assimilation process for Hispanics more than any other ethnic group.
Technology has changed everything. Direct and Dish TV offer like 30 Spanish language networks. And I see alot of those little dishes in Jackson Heights and Corona when passing through on the 7 train.
Pretty soon, all immigrants, no matter where they are from, will be able to receive media from their native countries, as if they are still back home.
Another problem is that many immigrant kids don't learn "American" English. They learn "urban" English, which is not corrected in the Public schools because the teachers either don't care, or are too stupid themselves to notice, or are just desensitized to it all.
Another problem is that many immigrant kids don't learn "American" English. They learn "urban" English, which is not corrected in the Public schools because the teachers either don't care, or are too stupid themselves to notice, or are just desensitized to it all.
That's a very valid point. The large urban environment, unfortunately, all too often combines students with many, many strikes against them to start with (poverty, absent and/or uneducated parents, etc.) with overcrowded classrooms taught by teachers who are often hired simply because they have a teaching certificate and the system is desperate to fill classroom slots. Historically, the top 20% of teachers gravitate towards small-town schools, the middle 60% end up in rural, suburban, or small-city schools, and the bottom 20% end up in large urban systems. (Why? Small-town systems offer the least restrictions for the teacher, allowing them to be creative in the classroom, while paying reasonably well and being free of the negative pressures associated with larger environments. Suburban and small-city schools offer the most money, while rural schools are often staffed by teachers who grew up in that area. Urban schools typically pay poorly by comparison with suburban schools, are overcrowded, and have a significantly higher percentage of students with "issues" - too stressful an environment for most teachers.) Obviously, there are individual exceptions to all the generalizations I've listed, but on the whole I think I've covered it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another phenomenon I don't like is that poor immigrant children often don't speak their native tongues correctly. When an arrival from Central America doesn't speak grammatically correct Spanish, has a poor native vocabulary, AND cannot speak English, he/she is screwed unless someobody intervenes.
I speak Castillian Spanish, because that's what I was taught in school, and I recognize there are many legitimate variations and dialects, but I have conversed with people who clearly don't speak any dialect correctly at all. This is a tragedy.
I'm afraid you have this backwards. You learned a language from a textbook and you're telling us that you speak the language properly but a native speaker doesn't? Sorry, that's just not the way language works.
More likely, you were taught a somewhat "upper-crust" dialect of the language. That doesn't mean the lower-crust dialects don't exist. Many everyday speakers of the lower-crust dialects probably have no difficulty using an upper-crust dialect when the situation demands -- but hanging out with friends on the subway (there! we're on-topic!) is not such a situation.
Much to the dismay of English teachers nationwide, native languages are not acquired in class. We've all been taught to never split infinitives. We've all been taught that prepositions are bad to end sentences with. (Okay, okay, that second one was a bit awkward. But the first was perfectly normal.) Neither of those rules is part of any but the most pretentious of English dialects. They were adopted by seventeenth-century prescriptive grammarians in an attempt to mimic Latin, where infinitives can't physically be split (they're single words) and prepositions can't end sentences. They have never been incorporated into the common man's English. Now, OTOH, did your high school English teacher bother teaching you that the subject usually comes before the verb? Of course not (except when discussing grammatical vocabulary like 'subject' and 'verb'); no native English speaker would consider a sentence like "Rode I the subway" acceptable in any but the most poetic settings.
See the Linguistic Society of America FAQs on language change and language acquisition.
True on both counts, but content still drives popularity to a certain extent, and while the Spanish channels can be wonderfully polticially incorrect and show more babes fabuloso in one hour than an American network will show in a week, there have only been a handful of foreign celebs (usually Latin) that have crossed over into the mainstream pop culture, where all the kids and their peer groups want to be. That doesn't mean it isn't easier to remain submerged in the Spanish language than it used to be, and that Spanish FM or TV stations aren't doing better in the ratings than they used to do, but to kids, the huge bulk of the pop culture world remains out of reach for them unless they learn English.
Jennifer Lopez made it big portraying Tejano pop star Selena, but the truth is the Tejano market has slipped back since the mid-1990s and a lot of radio stations in the southwest have abandoned or cut back on the format, because the main demographic teen/young adult market is listening to it less. The fact that they are listening to urban/hip hop more (which also explains J Lo's recording direction and her little flap over the `N' word lately) shows the type of English they are picking up is not the kind that's going to work very well inthe adult business world, but that's something that a few years of living in the real world will probably modify.
It's funny because at one point in California, everyone was fighting for bi-lingual education(which is really Spanish-English education, although other languages are offered, such as Vietnamese), arguing that kids should even be able to take exams in the language of their choice. As long as the kids showed that they learned the material, that's what mattered, was the argument used.\
Now, Hispanics in California realize that they have been left so far behind as a result of years of bi-lingual education, they are now trying to push more of their kids right into mainstream classes. But the damage has been done.
In LA, the number one radio and two radio stations are La Nueva and K-Love, which broadcast in Spanish. KMEX-CH.34 (41 in NY) beats all local affiliates in any language during the 6pm news.
Here in NY, Ch.41 now has more viewers than Ch.9.
The truth is, most of the Hispanics arriving in the US these days, just don't have the time to learn English. They generally work Mon-Sat, 12 hours a day, with Sunday being the only day off. There is no time to take English classes. It's alot different for them, then it was for my ancestors who came from Italy.
Things are getting more diversive in the states. I'm really afraid one day California would be out of the USA because of its very different status. Hispanics and all other immigrants including illegal immigrants should have more oppotunity to enter the American society by teaching them English. BTW, why Latin Americans are called as Hispanics.
>>> why Latin Americans are called as Hispanics. <<<
This is a somewhat obsolete term going back to the days when Blacks were Negroes. When the term Hispanic was in use it generally covered Puerto Ricans in the Eastern half of the United States, and those of Mexican descent in the Western United States. It referred to the language spoken and was frequently abbreviated by the less tolerant among us.
When the U.S. Government started keeping track of minorities for federal programs it had difficulty with a name for this group since there was no distinct racial characterization. The first attempt at naming the group was "Spanish Surname," which was not too effective since it would leave out many people such as the actor Anthony Quinn and many Brazilians, and included many Filipinos, Spaniards, and others not really intended to be included. It also allowed people who were not in the target class to change their names to become included. The more modern term is "Latino" referring to anyone from Latin America or descended from someone from Latin America.
Tom
why Latin Americans are called as Hispanics.
This is a somewhat obsolete term going back to the days when Blacks were Negroes. When the term Hispanic was in use it generally covered Puerto Ricans in the Eastern half of the United States, and those of Mexican descent in the Western United States. It referred to the language spoken and was frequently abbreviated by the less tolerant among us.
When the U.S. Government started keeping track of minorities for federal programs it had difficulty with a name for this group since there was no distinct racial characterization. The first attempt at naming the group was "Spanish Surname," which was not too effective since it would leave out many people such as the actor Anthony Quinn and many Brazilians, and included many Filipinos, Spaniards, and others not really intended to be included. It also allowed people who were not in the target class to change their names to become included. The more modern term is "Latino" referring to anyone from Latin America or descended from someone from Latin America.
Hispanic remains the term of choice in most of the eastern states. Latino is more southwestern, and when used in NY and elsewhere in this region usually (though not always) has politically correct connotations.
My own choice is ... nothing. I am fed up with the way people are constantly being racially and ethnically pigeonholded. Enough already!
Not suprising about the first generation -- the ones that are newly arrived in the U.S. are here either to earn money to send back home or to start a new life here in what is usually a minimum wage (or even off-the-books sub-minimum wage) jobs. If they do stay and start a family, the second generation is usually bi-lingual, but more comfortable with their parents' native tounge. It's the third generation that traditionally has made the changeover complete, though we're talking currently of kids who are in their teens whose grandparents arrived in the U.S. in the 1950s to mid 1960s.
For new arrivals with a language barrier problem, we could be talking 2035 or so for the grandkids, and you're right that the increase in satellite media transmissions does make it possible for people to "cocoon" themselves in an area that maintains the olf language, such as Little Havana in Miami or many of the border colinas in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. But for now, I think the mainstream American pop culture still wins out, since the kids don't want to be home Saturday night watching Sabato Gigante on Univision.
I sure wish there'd be a Chinese TV and radio station out there. There should be two TV stations, one in Mandarin and one in Cantonese. And while there are some weak part time Chinese AM stations there should be one, if not two full power FM stations playing chinese music. If you go to Chinatown you'll see how many stores sell lots of Chinese music, and wonder why no radio stations play it. NYC has 3 major Spanish FM's but not one Chinese, even though chinese are a sizable ethnicity in NYC. Why?
Because corporations are not obsessed with the Chinese population as they are with Hispanics.
I heard today that M&M's are introducing DULCE DE LECHE flavored candies for the Latino market.
Hispanics are treated as a separatist community by corporate America.
Corporations aren't going to favor one group for no reason. I think it's because there are more Hispanic executives in any media conglomerate. Even without that, there are certainly more spanish-speaking executives than Chinese.
>>> Hispanics are treated as a separatist community by corporate America. <<<
It is not so much corporate America as such, but the growth of Ethnic marketing. As ethnic groups are identified and reach a significant size to warrant the expense of targeted marketing, separate advertizing is produced. The Chinese market is not yet large enough for that treatment, and the overall Asian market is too diverse for targeted marketing.
If you go to a library and get a copy of Ebony magazine from 50 years ago, you will see that national advertisers such as Coca Cola and the auto manufacturers and cigarette manufacturers ran the same ads there as they did in Look or Colliers. Next came ads with Black models but the exact same text as the general ads. Finally completely different ads (and even different brands) targeted to the Black population.
There is a similar progression with marketing to Hispanics. Originally general advertising with the text translated into Spanish, now the text and pictures created by Hispanics for Hispanics which includes the shadings of cultural differences from the general population. There will even be some differences for marketing in New York, Miami, and the Southwestern United States.
Tom
Because corporations are not obsessed with the Chinese population as they are with Hispanics.
I heard today that M&M's are introducing DULCE DE LECHE flavored candies for the Latino market.
I would hardly call that an obsession. Corporations don't produce certain products to score political points. They produce products to make money. It is a reasonable assumption that marketing executives at Mars (the makers of M&M's) decided that there is a large enough potential market for Dulce de Leche flavored candies for production and sale thereof to be profitable. No doubt this decision was made after analysis of marketing studies and demographic information. If they had decided that, say, the Korean population was large enough, and that Koreans liked walnut-flavored candies (that's just a wild guess on my part), there would be walnut-flavored M&M's hitting the market soon. Money is a much larger motivator of action than is ideology or ethnic pride. Never forget that.
In addition, it's also unsafe to assume that only Hispanics are buying Hispanic-oriented food products. I often buy various ethnic foods, Hispanic ones included, even though I'm not a member of the groups in question. And I'm hardly alone. Vareity in food choice is a good thing.
One of the things I have noticed over the years about families where English is either the second language or is not spoken at all: By the third generation, the situation has pretty much reversed itself if the family is fully emersed in American life -- the kids speak mostly English and very little of their parents' or grandparents language, because; virtually all the good TV shows their peers like are in English and the same goes for movies, records, most of the books or magazines about pop culture, etc.
Grandma may only speak a few words of English haltingly at best while mom and dad may frature the vernacular when they speak it, but the kids don't want to be left out of all the good stuff, and willingly jump into the English language pool, unless forcably restrained, either by their families (and very, very few immigrants do that) or by misguided school programs that delay emersion later than it should be, since young kids pick up new things incredibly quickly.
What you describe indeed has been true for many generations of immigrants. I am reasonably confident that it will continue to be true for today's immigrants.
There are a couple of factors that might slow the pace of English-learning among immigrants. The easy availability of foreign-language media is one, as another poster in this thread has noted. But then, let's not forget that non-English media (of different types) is not a new phenomenon. I recall reading that NYC had something like 25 foreign-language daily newspapers in the early 1900's. And clearly the more "trendy" cultural outlets are mostly English.
The second factor is one that most people are probably too hesitant to mention, but I'll bring up - race. Immigrants in past generations were overwhelmingly white, those today are overwhelmingly minority. Even so, I don't see much of a problem as far as English-learning is concerned. Language is sufficently race-neutral to overcome these learning barriers. Besides, a knowledge of English is very important when it comes to earning a decent living. Money has a way of overpowering racial pride!
In short, I would imagine that the children and especially grandchildren of today's immigrants will learn English.
Getting back to the topic, subway escalators today I had to climb out of that deep 4/5 station at 59th street, because the escalator was broken.
God. That is one very long hike. One I am all too familiar with.
I feel bad for older and overweight people who really struggle, and have to stop to catch their breath. It can really affect(?) some people.
I work in a very multicultural environment, with people of many diverse national backgrounds. On my immediate staff I have people who were born and raised on six of the seven continents - Antarctica being the exception
You're going to have to correct that situation - go out and hire a penguin right now!!
Well, these were. No harm in supplementing the English with some Mandarin or Cantonese.
Whoops. Previous message in wrong place in thread. Sorry. :O)
I was on that !@#$% escalator -- yes, actually standing, riding on one of the steps -- when the !@#$% thing stopped moving. This was around 4:15pm or so. Of course, I had only made it up about 10% of the way! Is it not dangerous to shut down and escalator when people are riding it?!! The elderly and the disabled and people not holding the handrail could fall down, fer cryin' out loud! In fact, a bunch of us were stuck behind a poor lady with asthma, who thought she was in for a comfortable ride to the mezzanine, not a long climb, huffing and puffing all the way. Sheeeeesh!
Any indication of why it stopped?
I was there maybe 15 minutes after you. I met two SubTalkers yesterday and apparently just missed a third.
I'm not sure whether the stoppage was automatic (can this happen?), or if a SUPERVISOR stopped it, or if a kid pushed the button to be, uh, cute. I was running late, and didn't have time to really investigate. I saw no MTA employee presence on the mezzanine, save the S/A twiddling his thumbs in the booth. (Just an observation. Ahhh, MVMs...) Anyway, I would have loved to have railfanned yesterday with you guys, but there was no way I could have gotten outta work.
I'm not sure whether the stoppage was automatic (can this happen?)
If the mechanism gets screwed up, then it can only stop. In that case stopping would be the safe alternative (I don't want the escalator to catch fire or explode).
At my old high school the escalators stopped like that all the time. There was no interaction (nobody bending down to reach the keyhole, no alarm going off).
Back between 1986-88 during the last disruption of MannyB work the Broadway yellow "B" terminated @ Queensboro Plaza durring middays, why aren't they gonna do it to the "W"?
Those B trains were rarely checked to assure they were empty before moving onto the center track at Beebe Ave for a relay. To do so will cause a bottleneck at QBP as N trains wait for W trains to be completely checked to assure nobody is on board.
Besides, Astoria could use the extra service all day long.
Besides, Astoria could use the extra service all day long.
Amen, brother.
I would be surprised that the Astoria line would be so crowded, considering that as far as I know, all N trains run the full route, but the Sea Beach side has many more stations than the Astoria side, so one would think Astoria would not be as crowded. This same phenomenon exists on the Market Frankford Line, where the Frankford side gets more riders than the Market side on weekdays, but the Market side gets more people on weekends, making the trains more crowded on one end than on the other. (Despite the fact that the Frankford side is more populated on weekdays, it is because of the Frankford influx, not because of more stations).
The Sea Beach never strays far from the West End, and the latter is better located and has a faster ride into Manhattan. The Astoria line is all there is in Astoria.
I can't believe that someone is actually complaining that there will be too much service.
per Station Department Bulletin # SD-289-01
Weekday:
B From 145 to 34. Extended to Bedford Park 0526-0923 and 1600-1900. Service will terminate/originate on the downtown express track at 34.
D from 205 to 34. Bronx Express peak direction only 0615-0855(Southbound) and 1600-1821 (Northbound.)
Service will terminate/originate from the uptown express track at 34.
N is normal.
Local Q from Stillwell to 57/7 running express in Manhattan.
Diamond Q from Stillwell to 57/7 runs express in Brooklyn from 0600-2200.
R is normal
W runs from Ditmars to Stillwell. Brooklyn service same as B West End.
Broadway Express in Manhattan also stops at 49/7th.
From 2130- midnight will run from 57/7 to Stillwell and skip 49/7th.
After midnight runs in Brooklyn Only.
Orange S- runs 24/7 from Queensbridge to Broadway Lafayette.
Gray S- runs 24/7 from Broadway Lafayette to Grand Street.
Paid shuttle bus from Grand(Gray S) to Canal Complex.
Night service:
B- not running
D- All Local in Manhattan and Bronx after B stops running.
N- Normal
Q Local- Local in Brooklyn and express in Manhattan.
R- Shuttle from 95/36. Northbound skips 53 and 45 (use N.)
W- Shuttle from Stillwell to Pacific.
Weekend:
B- not running
D- Local in Manhattan and Bronx since B is not running.
Q Local- same as night service.
R- 71-Continental to 95.
W- Same as night service.
** I will post a separate Message for G.O.s from 7/21-7/28
Woah -- the D is running local on CPW nights and weekends? Nothing of the sort is indicated on my map. Are you sure? (This would be a service improvement to the CPW local stations at night.)
Also - the new-and-shortened B is now a rush hours and middays only train? This was also not indicated by the new maps i've seen, if i remember right...
Sort of a disgrace to a major & pretty reliable train...I guess the W's getting the better half of service (though that whole not-running-to-manhattan-on-weekends thing still kills)..
-Alan Scott, Dubya rider
The Map is designed to show normal service. The CPW (Central Park West) local service is only when the B train does not run. The B runs weekdays only until late evening. The Bulletin does not list when the last B runs Southbound and does list the last Northbound B.
I am guessing (Note, I said **guessing) the last B might be around 2130 since that is when the W does not go to Queens and ends at 57/7th.
I am sure this info will change often during this time--allow extra travle time, be flexible and be prepared for change. Keep your erasers handy.
But the map also includes the "Subway Service Guide" at the bottom. Regarding the D:
6 Avenue Express
All Times except Rush Hours: All stops in The Bronx, express stops in Manhattan, from 205 St, The Bronx, to 34 St/Herald Square, Manhattan
Rush Hours: Express stops in The Bronx on trips to Manhattan (AM rush hours), to The Bronx (PM rush hours), express stops in Manhattan from 205 St, The Bronx, to 34 St/Herald Square, Manhattan
The D is not listed under "Special Night Service."
The D better be express in Manhattan at all times! Or else!!!!!
Why do you care about the D anymore?
A local D gives me one more option to get home. I like it.
I need the express D in Manhattan to whisk me down from 181st street early early Monday mornings (like 1:00am) after coming back from being at home for the weekend. I live along the D (now the Q) so I only need t otake the A to the D and then straight home. But if the D runs local now in Manhattan during late nights, then there is no CPW express!
I'm afraid you're just going to have to sit on the train for five more minutes. Really, that's all the express saves. It wouldn't even be worth making the extra transfer if it did run (since the D runs at 20-minute headways and you need to change to the Q regardless), so this is a nonissue.
Don't bring the Q into this.
So you're going to hang out at Herald Square all night?
I'll try to take a look at the midnight D work programs and report my findings.I don't believe it's going local during the overnight hours.
I have a hard time imagining a D train whisking anybody anywhere, if you know what I mean (nudge, nudge).
Well dear colleague, that says it all. The question is will the avereage passenger listen? I'm glad that there are those out there who are listening as I've had customers come to me and request the brochure.
Unfrotunately, there are some who aren't aware of the changes and will probably learn the hard way.
-Stef
Dont forget that C/R's are supposed to make annoucements telling passengers to go to their local token booth to pick up a brochure.
Night service:
Q Local- Local in Brooklyn and express in Manhattan.
So Broadway goes from having no express service for over a decade to having one of the only lines with night express service? Well, I suppose it beats a return of the QT line.
Makes sense. The Brighton line runs express at all times in Manhattan, wherever in Manhattan it may happen to venture.
Makes sense to run more night expresses in Manhattan, especially on the IRT uptown lines, but they don't, both for budgetary reasons, and due to the fact that the time saved at night by express runs, in the MTA's mind, is outwieghed by the time saved by local passengers watching the express buzz them at 2:45 a.m. I was just pointing out the irony that the line that some people have never seen run regular express service in their lifetimes now will have 24/7 express service.
The TA was absolutely correct in running additional local service at the expense of express service in Manhattan. At 20-minute headways, adding a second local service means that average wait times at local stations (or at express stations for passengers going to local stations) drops from 10 minutes to 5 minutes. The time saved there is about equal to the time lost to anyone riding the express from top to bottom, but (a) there are probably more of the former than of the latter, and (b) it's a lot safer and more comfortable to spend five extra minutes on a train than five extra minutes in a station (especially a spooky IND station).
I don't ride much at night, but a few months ago, when I rode the last express 2 from Flatbush to 86 (it stopped at 79 and 86 for a GO) on a Saturday night, my car was basically empty (no more than two passengers) through Brooklyn and most of Manhattan, but from 42 until after I got off there were more standees than sittees.
Since when are IND stations spooky? BMT stations are haunted and most defintely spooky! IRT stations are just plain old. IND stations are strong and industrious.
Local IND stations in the middle of Queens with incandescent lighting are spooky at 1 AM. Particularly since my station with 6 staircases to the street at all ends of the station get reduced to 2 in the middle, yet the mezzanine is fully open.
Grand ave at all times is a bit odd. The lighting is dim everywhere, and the fenced off / closed staircases give a strange abandoned feeling to the place. The wall barriers in the middle don't help the image.
IND stations have huge empty spaces that aren't very well lit. Let's just say that if I were a mugger, I'd spend my time at an IND local station in the middle of the night. IRT and BMT stations are just too small; there aren't as many good places to hide.
The diamond Q is supposed to be terminating at Brighton Beach as per RTO work programs.
When the customers go ballistic, tell them that the Manhattan Bridge has been screwed up for 20 years, and the MTA had a plan to improve things (ie. Rutgers-DeKalb connection) but none of the politicians cared.
There's a green seat on R-32 3947 (running today on the N). Look near the #2 end.
Many of the R-32 seats were new but a fair number were refinished seats from the pre-overhaul days. Either you saw one which has seen some unusual wear or someone had one of the old ones stashed somewhere,
This one was a pretty uniform green throughout. Well-worn, though. Leave it alone; I like the texture and the history. (I sat on it -- at least until I got up to take a picture.)
As the dark gray paint wears off on these refinished seats,
you can see their origins. Some or that blue-green of the
original R32 seats, others salmon (prob ex-R30?)
I'd say the seats were more of a cyan or turquoise color, not plain green. Better than the current dk. gray.
R-32 seats were close to teal blue/turquoise in their original incarnation, which went with the light blue walls similar to those on the R-33/36 WF trains (and of course we don't want to forget the R-32's dark blue exterior doors, either)
I will only list G.O. ite,s pretaining to B Division Bridge and Queens Only.
Per official Bulletin SD-292-01.in re G.O. # B-3873-01
F- Midnight hours run via 63rd st.
Q- Pay close attention, several patterns:
001 Sunday to 0100 Monday- Stillwell to Times Square
0100 Monday- runs from 57/7 to Stillwell.
R- Via 63rd when it runs to Queens.Express in Manhattan Southbound from 0500-2400 Saturday and Sunday.
A second G.O. is to start 2200 on 7/23 and work from 2200-0500. This is for Monday to friday only. That info to follow in a second message.
You dropped a digit. What time does the GO on the Q start? "001" is not a time according to my watch.
(I predicted this. The R needs access to the express tracks at 57th for its GO. Poor planning.)
How far south will the R be running express? What will happen to the Q then?
the times are 0001 to 42 and 0100 to 57.
Thanks.
According to other posts, the first Brooklyn-bound Q will be the 0003 from Stillwell, whenever it reaches Manhattan. In effect, the above GO simply means that the first and maybe second Q will only be going as far as 42.
The R starts coming through 63rd again at 0500. Will the Q be cut back to 42 again? If not, where will it turn? The R needs both express tracks at 57.
The R stops running in Manhattan at 2400 and starts again at 0600.
regarding the Q to Brighton vs Stillwell. The Q Express stops running at 2200. This G.O. covers the weekend when the Q Express does not even run.Q Local (Circle Q) is the only Q overnights, weekends and holidays.
But how will the Q turn at 57th while R's need to run through on the express tracks?
The way I understand the G.O. is that the Q will terminate at 42 St all day Sunday. This would free both express tracks at 57 St for the R for 63 St operation.
Either turn at 42nd, cancel the R G.O. at the last minute, or (and I'll bet on this one) toss the trains where they may and let the tower sort ém out.
Getting of my B train on the way home this afternoon at a station already covered with W signs, I *almost* stopped by the token booth to ask if the new maps had come in yet. "Almost" because written in big block letters on the markerboard behind the token clerk was written "NO NEW MAPS."
I guess that more than just the crazy railfans have been running to pick them up..
-Alan Scott, official Dubya-train rider.
There are no new maps as of Monday. As a matter of fact, supervision was trying to throw the old ones out, in preparation for a new shipment.
-Stef
Simply amazing, they have no new subway maps in the subway sytem but they have them at Metro-North stations. Sorta shows you what customers the MTA cares about, huh?
Peace,
ANDEE
Kings Hwy Brighton Station Agents have covered up the new Circle Q's on signs with hand written circle D's.
Guess they are getting too many questions
The new maps are on most B division cars and few A division cars.
True, Mike, but I was referring more to the lack of them in the booths.
Peace,
ANDEE
What happened is that there was much greater demand at token booths than at Metro_north Stations.
Do they have the new subway maps at GrandCentral?
Do they have the new subway maps at the Metro North terminal in Grand Central?
Yes, in the Transit Museum shop, multilingual (pink) only. The info booth looks like it still gives out March.
Same thing at 34 St on the 1/2/3/9; "NO SUBWAY MAPS AT THIS TIME."
There's a GO-like "take-one" out there for the N/W, too; "W to run express in Queens, beginning July 23, 2001." A friend said that people were swarming the "take-one" holders in Astoria this morning to get one; passers-by at Grand Central last night seemed far less enthusiastic about them.
per Official Bulletin SD-295-01. G.O. B-3894-01 and B-3902-01.
E- Normal. Queens local when R is not running.
F- 63rd st then normal until Brooklyn when it runs Express from Smith/9th to Ditmas.
G- Extended to Church Av running Local.
Orange S- replaced by F
Q- "Will operate between Stillwell Avenue and 34 Street/Broadway. Beginning approximately 0100 hours service will operate between 57Street/7 Avenue and Stillwell Avenue."(Exact quote).
W-"Service will operate between Stillwell Avenue and 34 Street/Broadway. Beginning approximately 0100 hours W Shuttle will operate between Stillwell Avenue and 36 Street. 4Avenue."(Exact Quote.)
Stations closed: local track at Queens Plaza.
a ps to part 1 message: Stations closed will be 57/6 from 0530-2200 on Saturday and Sunday.
*****D i s c l a i m e r** This material taken from Official Station Department Bulletins. RTO can and has suspended G.O.s or changed hours and conditions without notice to Stations. Please be patient with Transit during this transition time.
Note to Mike Adler: This will be included in the package which is forthcoming in the next few days
Well, I have recently come upon some information on the less glamorous part of the TA, MOW (maintenence-of-way). There appears to be no people on this board who work in this department, and there is lots of sketchy info...
Never fear, for the 'reliable' J Trainloco is here with the facts. This is the first in a series of posts that I'll put up on this board. Hopefully, you'll learn something new (and hopefully, i'll get this right the first time around...)
Anyway, the first post is on G.O.s and the way they work. subway-buff@mindspring.com brought up a good point:
*****D i s c l a i m e r** This material taken from Official Station Department Bulletins. RTO can and has suspended G.O.s or changed hours and conditions without notice to Stations. Please be patient with Transit during this transition time.
He is totally correct, Stations dept. has little control on G.O.s. In fact, often RTO has a G.O. on standby. Here's what I mean:
Many G.O.'s re-route all trains. This is for something major like a concrete pour, or track replacement. But, many G.O.s are turned on or off by the supervisor on hand. A supervisor can call up RTO and say: "Turn the G.O. on on the A line from Chambers to Jay", and the G.O. will be in effect. He can then call up and turn it off. This is what is often done in 'wrong-railing' situations. Thus, if a crew finishes work early, the supervisor can turn the G.O. off early. If the crew is late, the supervisor keeps the G.O. on.
In addition, while Stations can not really control G.O.'s, they can hold up trains. If a supervisor has workers down on the tracks, he can stop a train from entering the station, and even have a train re-routed via the express track (i think...). However, the supervisor must write a letter to his superintendant as to why he held up the train. (A supervisor my dad knows was so fed up with this policy, that he wrote to his superintendant that he held the train because he "felt like it". {this wasn't really the case}).
Next time your train is delayed due to a 'red signal', you will probably know why: either a train is really in front of you, or a work gang is holding it up.
I would hope you hold up a train from entering a station, saftey of the work crews should be foremost. I know the "ROAD" has priority and most crews clear up well before the road arrives but if for some reason (some one trips) they don't get out of the way I don't mind waiting.
Everybody here seems to know that T/O's are trained in classes at yards and on school cars along a line. But, I'm sure you knew that track workers also need some type of class as well...
Well, most people here have heard of P.S.248 in Bklyn. This is where track workers get their training (a number of outside employees have been trained there recently, including people from Kawasaki and Bombardier). Any type of TA maintenence job you could think of is taught there. This is where the classrooms are for the workers. However, they get their hands on training elsewhere.
The actual track safety classes are taken out to the R line in Bay Ridge from 59th to 95th sts. (As a general rule, the instructors like to stay away from 36th. Too many trains taking too many different routes). The classes are taught on live R line tracks.
Other classes are taken to 207th yard (ex, welding classes) and others to Linden Shops (ex, crane operator classes). This is the basic training plan for TA maintenence workers.
P.S. on this site, R-16 6452 is mentioned, but it is noted that the mechanical status of the car is unknown. Dave, you can update that to "not operational"
> P.S. on this site, R-16 6452 is mentioned, but it is noted that the
> mechanical status of the car is unknown. Dave, you can update that
> to "not operational"
Thanks will do but just a note, I can't possibly read every message so if you have something for my attention just drop me an email or a feedback. Thanks :)
-Dave
>>Thanks will do but just a note, I can't possibly read every message so if you have something for my attention just drop me an email or a feedback. Thanks :)<<
No problem. Will do that in the future.
Track cuts. Probably the single most disrupting work done by the TA, track cuts are when the TA replaces the track ballast. Because the procedure is so long, often track cuts can last for a week, re-routing trains nightly.
The procedure for track cuts is as follows:
The work is done different ways. For streches of track where there are no interlockings, work is done nightly. First, each night sections of the concrete ballast are cut away. After enough sections have been cut out, the pour is done (usually on a weekend). The TA used to have mixers on flatcars, but not anymore. At street level, Trucks bring in the concrete, and pipes are run from the nearest street exit to the worksite. Then, the concrete is smoothed into place. It takes a few hours to actually harden, but 29 days to be considered fully hardened. (This is why you see that trains move at restricted speed for weeks after a pour is done. The TA wants to put trains back on the tracks, but they don't want to crack the concrete they just put in.)
However, if there is an interlocking, different procedure must be followed. First, the track department must remove the switch completely. (interesting note: A signal is at no time changed, so I think it's possible for a T/O to recive a lineup that's not there. I've never heard that happen before, so I wonder what would happen. There's no switch to cross onto!). After the switch is removed, the work begins on cutting out the concrete between the tracks still in place from the switch, and the trackbed where the switch was removed from. After that, the pour is done the same way as above. Usually, the switch is not put in until about a week later.
Track cuts are not done by any one department. Aside from the switch removal (done by the track and structures department), this work can be done by people from varying departments who have the know how. It goes without saying then, that this is an overtime pick.
Track cuts are not done on elevated lines. The closest thing to a track cut on an elevated done recently was the ballast work done at smith/9th when F's were routed express.
On elevated lines, tracks are not set up the same. Undergorund, rails are placed individually on the ties. So, If the siganl rail cracks, I can just replace it. On elevated lines, the tracks come in panels, where the 2 tracks, the ties and the employee walkway are all incorporated into one peice. Track dept. just brings them on a flatcar and, using a crane, puts them into place.
Even the Inventory Company that does the TA's mechincal parts inventory had to take a track saftey class. (According to the same vendor that does our inventory).
In the event of a case where the person had to be in a yard, the TA wants to be safe rather than sorry.
In addition, while Stations can not really control G.O.'s, they can hold up trains. If a supervisor has workers down on the tracks, he can stop a train from entering the station, and even have a train re-routed via the express track (i think...). However, the supervisor must write a letter to his superintendant as to why he held up the train. (A supervisor my dad knows was so fed up with this policy, that he wrote to his superintendant that he held the train because he "felt like it". {this wasn't really the case}).
To the best of my knowledge, Stations can only slow us down while their Mobile Wash team is cleaning the station walls. Aside from that Stations does not belong on the tracks. GOs are usually created by either Track, Signals, Power, Structure or Outside Contractors. RTO just sort of deals with them, but in certain circumstances (cold weather) can cancel them.
>>Stations can only slow us down while their Mobile Wash team is cleaning the station walls.<<
That's pretty much the only reason the guys would be on the tracks. Except for when the workers are doing work on that yellow strip at the edge of the platform (I forgot the name, I think it's called a running board). Sometimes, carpenters replace those. On newer stations, the things are made of rubber, so that's not really a problem.
I thought they were putting a moratorium on these G.O.'s for a week, so people could get used to the new pattern. How old are these bulletins? Have they been superseded?
The bulletins were dated 718(SDD-292-01 and SD-295-01).
Here again please keep in mind that sometimes what actually happens is different than the info we have in Stations Department.
Once I was at a statiion and taped a platform due to be closed. Stations called in the booth via emergency phone system and told us the G.O. wasd canceled and to reopen the platform. I complied with the request. Yeah- you guessed it, The G.O. did work and I called stations(regular phone) to inform the G.O. was working. Stations called back via emergency phone and said they had wrong info and to reclose the platform.
As Alex L and other RTO posters have stated, we do not control the G.O.s- if we need to close a station our supervision calls RTO and RTO Supervision(IND, IRT or BMT Desk supervisor in their Control) will acutally close the station and tell trains to skip the station. In the meantime, police will be dispatched to the station to watch customers (ie lighting failure, etc.) until trains skip the station.
Here is the procedure S/As follow: Let's say we are in an elevator station and power fails. We hit our EBCS and advise of power failure with(or without) customers trapped in elevators. Police will immediately come to our station to clear the station and elevators. In the meantime our supervisor who took our EBCS call calls RTO Command Desk Supervisor and requests trains to skip the station.The call is nowe in the hands of RTO. Station supervision will also respond to the station to assist in evacuation which might be needed. We will be instructed by supervision in our role.
Does anyone care to venture a guess which train will be the last one to cross the Manhattan Bridge A/B tracks in service? How about which will be the first to cross on the H tracks in service?
Simple answer to Question #1: Since the D train is the only train to use the Manhattan Bridge at night because the B is shuttle service and the Q doesn't run. So expect the last train to be a D train.
The Answer to your second question it will be more then likely to be an N train. The first Q train to leave from C.I. will leave at 12:03 I dont know what time the first Q train leaves from 34 Street. So more then likely it will be an N.
>>The Answer to your second question it will be more then likely to be an N train. The first Q train to leave from C.I. will leave at 12:03 I dont know what time the first Q train leaves from 34 Street. So more then likely it will be an N.<<
Considering that the N will not even cross the bridge, I've got to say that the N will likely not be the first train to cross the bridge on the H tracks. I have no idea where you got the idea that the N was on the bridge, but it is not.
Here's a third (and much easier) question that requires NO guessing! Why are the Broadway tracks called the H tracks, and the 6th av. trax called the A/B tracks?
Actually, I was looking for a more scheduled answer like 23:05 D Bedford or the 00:17 N Stillwell (Those are exaples and not the correct answer unless I'm an incredible guesser)
>>Actually, I was looking for a more scheduled answer like 23:05 D Bedford or the 00:17 N Stillwell<<
I figured, but i'm not guessing, just setting the matter on the N straight.
Here's a third (and much easier) question that requires NO guessing! Why are the Broadway tracks called the H tracks, and the 6th av. trax called the A/B tracks?
WABAC before Chrystie, the south/west side tracks went to Chambers Street, the north/east side went to Canal. They were part of lines H and A. When the bridges connection was converted to the current state, A now went on the south side until abruptly moving back north maybe in the middle (I don't know exactly), there H starts again. IND B extends to the middle of the bridge along the north side.
I don't know, but if you do, you'd better tell us by Saturday night.
i noticed a pretty innovative element to the Track maps on this site. Instead of just reprinting the diamond symbol to show the terminals of express/rush-hour trains, like the MTA maps do, what's used is a square (like the standard terminal symbol) but with a drawn diamond shape around the route letter. (for visuals, check out the Coney Island-area track map, look at Brighton Beach).
Any way to get the MTA to adopt this? (question directed mostly to those subtalkers lucky enough to drive trains etc. for the MTA)
-West End Scott of the Dubya train
I noticed a pretty innovative element to the Track maps on this site. Instead of just reprinting the diamond symbol to show the terminals of express/rush-hour trains, like the MTA maps do, what's used is a square (like the standard terminal symbol) but with a drawn diamond shape around the route letter. (for visuals, check out the Coney Island-area track map, look at Brighton Beach).
Thanks for noticing that :) I got the inspiration for that idea last Sunday. I was racking that-which-passes-for-my-brain these days for a new way of depicting the terminal of a diamond service. Two ice-cold Cokes and a backrub from my sweetie later, the idea materialized. Next time I get into the map I'll surround the yellow square with a black stroke as well (it just doesn't look right the way it is now).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
now that i know who does it, I'll congratulate you on a great idea personally....Any way you think to get the MTA to conform to your standard?
-West End Scott, Dubya rider
Well, There's a good chance that i'll be at (meaning going inside) Linden Shops sometime next week. If anyone has any Linden Shop questions, I might be able to find answers for you.
Track maps dude! Pictures! Have fun!
>>Track maps dude! Pictures!<<
If I can, I will get you guys some Linden Shops pictures. Track maps... i'll see what I can do.
>>Have fun!<<
Thanks.
I second the request for track maps. My source material is a few years old now and may have changed. Pics would be VERY greatly appreciated as well.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Hopefully, the link will work now:
I guess the link to cnn.com just won't work - it looks fine on preview, but doesn't work on the actual posting.
See if this works.
That is one fire that you do not fight with water. The hazmat teams will be real busy for a spell.
Service on the Central Light Rail Line was completely suspended in downtown, as was MARC commuter train service to Camden Yards. The Metro Subway line passes under the B&O tunnel, but I didn't hear of any disruption there.
On the local news you could see smoke pouring out of BOTH ends of the tunnel, which is more than a mile long. The second half of an Orioles doubleheader was cancelled; the way dem bums have been playing, it was probably a blessing!
The came today is history as well. Civil Defense Sirens, I bet that is a first in 30 years. Would anyone know what they were?
It's still hopeless. At 3:25 today my ISP lost its connection, at least for a while. They use UUNET for their backbone to the Internet and the main cable for UUNET runs guess where? Right through the Howard St. tunnel. By 7:30 UUNET apparently re-arragned their sevices, as my ISP is able to get out to the 'net. Here's what I was going to post at 3:25:
The mess is hopeless as well. The cars are still burning, there are 9 tank cars with various hazardous chemicals, one containing Hydrocloric Acid is leaking, and a badly burned RBOX boxcar was pulled out the south end this AM. Fire crews are still working, but as of this posting the fire still burns.
The Light Rail is suspended from North Avenue to Patapsco Avenue, with bus bridges between the points. MARC is still running to Dorsey on the B&O line. Normal service is being operated on MARC's Penn Line and the Baltimore Metro.
Added to the mess is a broken main water line, 40 inches in size, that ruptured at Howard and Lombard Sts. DPW crews have been working on this since last night. This morning they attempeted to shut off the line, but the closest valve jammed, and one several blocks away was being closed. The flow has been cut by 80%, but the flow has to be stopped to apply the patch. The Light Rail tracks have been damaged, but MTA's track crew can't do anything until DPW is finished.
The Howard Street Tunnel was constructed by the Baltimore & Ohio in 1895 and was the first electrically operated railroad in America. The tunnel is a brick-lined one, and current suspicion is that the fire will have severly damaged the lining in that area. It is likely that it will be out of service for a considerable time, causing CSX much pain in rerouting trains. The MTA is not too unhappy about CSX's pain, considering how much pain CSX has caused the MTA's MARC operations. A current story (aka rumor)is that Baltimore City is going to make CSX pay for all the money that has been spent in this mess.
As of 6:45 they were preparing to attempt to extract the cars plus supress the fire - at the same time!! News may be fortcoming by 11:00.
CSX finally admitted that the train did derail - today. CSX's track record (use the term loosly) is just short of abysmal. They were #2 on the FRA "Bad Track" list and paid a pretty stiff fine. Betcha they're still short-shifting track maintenance.
I hear that the train might of been speeding befor the derailment
It is said that the Internet is the greatest source of misinformation and rumor and after reading the post about speeding...one has to wonder.
The Baltimore Sun website clearly quotes an NTSB official who states the train was within the 25 mph limit in the tunnel and that when the emergency brakes applied, the speed was 18 mph.
The poster who implied "speeding" quoted no one.
David Harrison
Anyone know when the Redbirds will actually join the fishes? What happens when they leave on the barges?
John
Someone is sure to cue up Bye, Bye, (Red)Birdies.
If they are floating them out of 207 Street Yard, they will have to write a long term General Order taking 64 track O/S so advanced notice will be given. The rumor I heard was targeting either August 13 or the 20 as the start dates. When they removed the R44s, the 1909 and the 14 Street cars, they removed at least 6 cars max per day during the last G.O.
Well, this has been a busy couple of weeks for my maps. I have
finally gotten around to posting some long-promised vintage maps on my little
web site, including:
A map of Manhattan, ca. 1903, showing the legal boundaries of the old
village of New Harlem. A nice feature of this map is that it shows
all the streets in New York in very great detail. I also include the
little bit of New Harlem history which I know on the top level page.
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/NewHarlem_1903/NewHarlemLevel1.html
1886 maps of Upper & Lower Manhattan, as well as Brooklyn. There is a
lot of detail in these maps, and you can see which ferry lines used to
ply the East River before the bridges were built. The Brooklyn
Bridge is shown in the Lower Manhattan map, but it is not named
anything other than "suspension bridge".
Ob nycsubway.org: As far as I can tell, the 1886 maps also show the streetcar network, including stop stations.
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/UpperManhattan_1886/UpperManhattan_1886_Level1.html
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/LowerManhattan_1886/LowerManhattan_1886_Level1.html
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/Brooklyn_1886/Brooklyn_1886_Level1.html
All maps are "clickable", meaning that you can zoom in on a section of
a map in order to get more detail of that area.
Please enjoy the new, old maps!
Stuart
They are indeed fascinating maps. I am particularly interested in the Manhattan detail with all of the elevated lines and their stations. Thank you for sharing them. Would it be possible to have a permanent link to your site and maps from the historical map segment of this site?
Thanks for your kind words. I am always happy when people link to my site. Several other sites already have links to it. However, the person who would create a link from here is David Pirman, who runs nycsubway.org.
I own the 1886 map you show, but I don't have upper Manh.
These maps are fascinating, especially the map of Brooklyn.
The Brooklyn map is from just after the annexation of the Town of New Lots, and it shows the "Annexed District of New Lots" in an inset. The annexations of the Town of Flatbush and the Town of Flatlands are still 8 and 10 years in the future, respectively, and so we see the borders that Brooklyn shared with those municipalities.
I am interested to see that today's Fulton St. east of Broadway Junction was Fulton Avenue in New Lots. I had never really appreciated that they were two separate streets. How long after this annexation was the name of Fulton Ave. was changed to Fulton St.?
Also, we see Jamaica Ave. under the name "Brooklyn and Jamaica Plank Road". Because Jamaica Ave. through Hollis once had the name "Fulton St.", I had theorized that it possibly had picked up this name from the meeting with the "real" Fulton St. at Broadway Junction. But, this map indicates that this was not the case. Would you happen to know: 1) how far into Jamaica the Brooklyn and Jamaica Plank Road got before it became known as Fulton St.; and 2) by what name was Fulton Ave. known after it crossed from New Lots into Jamaica?
Speaking of street names, today's Eldert Lane is given with the full "Elderts" spelling. Unfortunately, however, Van Sic(k)len Ave. is not labelled; I would have been interested to see which spelling was used. I also noticed that Shepherd Ave. is given as "Shephard". Is this an error on the map, or was that spelling actually used in those days?
Furthermore, I see that what is today Pitkin Ave. then carried the name Eastern Parkway (and also that the entire eastern section of today's Eastern Parkway that turns and runs parallel to E. New York Ave. had not yet been built). John R. Pitkin was, I believe, the founder of Woodhaven back in the 1830s, yet his name is still not attached to the avenue over 50 years later. Do you know if the Pitkin Ave. name was being used on the Queens side of the border at that time, and if maybe it "migrated" westward over the years?
Finally, the strangest street name oddity that I found involves today's New Lots Avenue. Not only was it then "Road" and not "Avenue", but "Lots" is spelled with 2 Ts: "New Lotts Road". (Incidentally, today's Lott Ave. was then Lotts Ave.) Yet, the town's name is given on the map with one T: "New Lots". I had always thought that the name "New Lots" had someting to do with the concept of "lots", meaning plots of land. But, this map now has me doubting that. Was there a Mr. Lott for whom this place was named?
Anyway, thanks for posting these maps. I will enjoy studying them immensely.
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- small HTML error: the "title" tag on the zoomed-in Brooklyn map pages seem to have the wrong borough and year. The title bar on my browser says "1866 Map of Upper Manhattan".
Thanks for your interest and your intriguing questions. I am unfortunately ignorant of Brooklyn's history. However, this map has peaked my curiosity a little, and I may try to do some reading on the subject.
P.S. -- small HTML error: the "title" tag on the zoomed-in Brooklyn map pages seem to have the wrong borough and year. The title bar on my browser says "1866 Map of Upper Manhattan".
Oops! I generate the maps using Perl scripts which I have written to process the image and chop it up into the smaller maps. When writing the scripts, I generally use the last script as the template for the next one. I am not always perfect about editing out all the old tags for each new map & script. Thanks for the QC, I will fix it tonight and upload the correct html.
While you're at it, could you change your Perl scripts to include appropriate height and width attributes on your images? That should keep the arrows from jumping around, as they do now.
Now I see what happens to Riverside Drive around 155th Street. The northern part is Boulevard Lafayette -- the only remnant of that today, AFAIK, is Plaza Lafayette, at the west end of 181st Street. And I like the way Fort Washington Avenue continues through today's park to meet Broadway.
While you're at it, could you change your Perl scripts to include appropriate height and width attributes on your images? That should keep the arrows from jumping around, as they do now.
That has to do with the fact that the layer 2 map html is created as a table. When the arrows are not there (on the images on the map's edges) then the number of rows/columns changes and the image jumps around on the browser page.
I agree that it's a PITB, and is a "bug" on all my maps. I will play around with fixing it.
Now I see what happens to Riverside Drive around 155th Street. The northern part is Boulevard Lafayette -- the only remnant of that today, AFAIK, is Plaza Lafayette, at the west end of 181st Street. And I like the way Fort Washington Avenue continues through today's park to meet Broadway.
Boulevard Lafayette's only remnant is the Plaza on 181st St, and maybe some section of the access road which runs down to Riverside Dr. from the Plaza. Does anybody know more about this? (I guess I can look at my other maps to find this out . . . . .)
Not only was Fort Washington Ave truncated, but Margaret Corbin Circle was also moved about a couple of blocks south with the construction of Fort Tryon Park. Also, I believe that W 190th St also didn't exist until they built the park. Rather, Overlook Terrace cut into what was Margaret Corbin Circle at 193rd St. Check it out at:
http://www.brorson.com/maps/NYC/NYC1934/UpperManhLevel2_1200_795_3360.html
Finally, it's interesting to see in the 1886 map that Inwood Hill park at one time had streets running through it, and was presumably a built-up area.
That has to do with the fact that the layer 2 map html is created as a table. When the arrows are not there (on the images on the map's edges) then the number of rows/columns changes and the image jumps around on the browser page.
As I suggested, use height and width attributes. The problem is that the browser doesn't know how large the image is until it starts downloading it. If you include that information in the HTML itself, the browser can render the page properly from the outset.
Not only was Fort Washington Ave truncated, but Margaret Corbin Circle was also moved about a couple of blocks south with the construction of Fort Tryon Park. Also, I believe that W 190th St also didn't exist until they built the park. Rather, Overlook Terrace cut into what was Margaret Corbin Circle at 193rd St. Check it out at:
Now I'm thoroughly confused. This just adds to my confusion over the subway station there, 190th Street-Overlook Terrace, which is a few blocks north of either 190th Street or Overlook Terrace.
Now I'm thoroughly confused. This just adds to my confusion over the subway station there, 190th Street-Overlook Terrace, which is a few blocks north of either 190th Street or Overlook Terrace.
Yup, it is kinda confusing. But because there are very few numbered streets up there (at least on FWA) it has never bothered me very much.
But now I am intrigued. Perhaps Overlook Terrace actually did run by the station exit back when the station was built. A look at the opening dates in the IND section of nycsubway.org shows that the Washington Heights section opened on 9.10.1932. Fort Tryon Park opened in 1935 according to
http://www.brorson.com/neighborhood/ParkTourNew.html. Moreover, that little parklet donated by Rockefeller with the ping-pong tables next to the station was also opened about the same time as Ft. Tryon Park. Therefore, it is entirely possible that the lower mezzanine of the 190th St stop used to open onto Overlook Terrace before the parks were built, since Overlook would have run right by there. Hmmmm . . . .
The lower mezzanine? That's all the way down the cliff by Bennett. Or do you mean the back of the current stationhouse (at the top of the elevators)? I suppose that's a possibility.
What about the buildings on 190th between Overlook and FWA? (There's one on each side, I think.) Or do those postdate FTP?
The lower mezzanine? That's all the way down the cliff by Bennett. Or do you mean the back of the current stationhouse (at the top of the elevators)? I suppose that's a possibility.
I mean at the back of the current station at the top of the elevators. That's where the little parklet is.
What about the buildings on 190th between Overlook and FWA? (There's one on each side, I think.) Or do those postdate FTP?
AFAIK, the buildings on the east side of FWA from 190th on up were built in the late 1930s. 720-730 FWA (my building) was finished in 1940 IIRC.
There is a cool ariel photo of the area on display in one of the other apartment buildings in the area, in the lobby. The photo shows the Fort Washington ridge before the apartment buildings were built. I will take a look at it sometime to see if I can discern an entrance from the subway onto the former Overlook Terrace.
This answers another question. Why did the IND build the 190th Street stationhouse below the level of Ft. Washington. Now I see.
Oh, BTW, were Fort George and Fort Washington named after the same person?
I know that the MTA will be closing the northbound platforms at Canal Street and Farm Road and consolidating all traffic on the southbound side. Will anything be done at East Saxon Street?
I assume eastbound (northbound) service will use the center track instead of the side track, but the same platform will be in use.
With the side track out of service, the TA should install a removable bridge to the exit on the south side of Schiff Parkway.
Is that secrect subtalk for Essex?
avid
Ha, ha. He is trying to show off that he knows that Bowery is from the Dutch word for farm, and Essex means East Saxon.
why?
In defence of his swineness, he can read as well as write!
avid
Do the strips on the side of the cars near the operating cabs mean something?
Why are the interior cab lights always on at the rear end of the train?
>>>Do the strips on the side of the cars near the operating cabs mean something? <<<
These red stripes indicate wheelchair positions. 4 cars (#s 1,5,6 and 10) per 10 car consist.
Peace,
ANDEE
The light say on in all the cabs that are not being used by the T/O. It is so the T/O can see into the cab before they go in.
Robert
Is this a feature only on these cars? I've never seen cab lights on all the time like this in any other equipment?
The cab lights can be turned off, its up to the T/O or C/R......
(I'm posting this again under it's own subject in case people aren't seeing it where it is currently buried)
I have ALL THE ANSWERS for you guys. Multi-lingual editions of the new July 2001 MTA "The Map" are available at the Transit Museum store in GCT! I was there at lunchtime and they had a ton of them. I was there at 7:30pm and they had about 1/4 of them left. Now I'd like to find some non-multi-lingual versions.
Anyone prepared to mail English versions of the new map to the UK when available? I have plenty of London maps etc. for exchange. If so, email me direct.
Mutli-Lingual July 2001 maps are available on S.I. at the New Dorp branch library (New Dorp Lane & Clawson Street). They've been in stock there for about two weeks. I didn't see any non-multi-lingual maps though. The MTA takes forever to send the library current x-bus & SIR schedules but the subway maps shows up early.
How much longer do you think they'll be around, before being replaced?
I'm hoping for another 10 years for each model.
R-32's --> 20 years (basd on info posted in SubTalk, sketchy as it may be :)
R-40's --> 10 years (I will tear my clothing and pull out my hair when they retire the slants)
This A.M. on my way to the salt mine, I was stareing out of my window on the "A" train.
When we stopped at Hudson St., I thought of Henry Hudson. I guess the street was named to honor him. An Englishman working for the Dutch.
At Franklin Ave. I thought of Ben Franklin, one of the founding fathers.
At Utica, the city to the north. Euclid, a famous Greek mathamatician.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn, The famous knuckleball pitcher and the Colonial Dutch erotic underwear merchant.
Clinton-Washington Two famous Presidents!
Bowling Green, Where the colonial Dutch starter the first bowling League.
,BUT WHO IS RALPH?
is he the same Ralph from my youth, whos name I heard called from alleys and parking lots after the "Last Call"
Raaaaaaalph bring the Buuuuuuuuuuick!
avid
I forgot to mention Lafayette St named for the french guy Gen. Pershing was looking for when the A.E.F. arrived in France.
John Jay, signer of the Declaration Of the Independant Line.
avid
I didn't know the A,E,and F trains went to France from Manhattan.
Michael
IND Second System extensions.
Clinton Avenue was named for DeWitt Clinton.
In addition to Ralph, I'd like to know who Howard was. Maybe it was one person: Ralph Howard.
The Howard of Howard Beach is William Howard, who purchased and developed the land in 1897. Dunno about Ralph, but the street certainly predates Kramden, Nader, and Fiennes... :)
The Howard of Howard Beach is William Howard, who purchased and developed the land in 1897. Dunno about Ralph, but the street certainly predates Kramden, Nader, and Fiennes... :)
I was talking about the Howard of Howard Avenue, I know about Mr. Howard of Howard Beach. Ralph Avenue and Howard Beach have jack squat in common. Ralph and Howard Avenues are one street apart.
Anyway, since we're doing this, where do the names Dyckman, Smith (as in Smith Street), Pitkin, Shepherd, Grant, Boyd (as in 88th St-Boyd Av), Mott, Frank, Gaston, Straiton and Holland come from?
Avid reader, you forgot Franklin. One hundred Dollars, it's all about the Benjamins.
Those I know:
Chambers is named for John Chambers (I ain't kiddin'), he was one of the three people to whom the old dutch public square was leased as a green to be used for bowling.
Arverne is named for R. Vernam.
I don't know who Broadway Nassau was, but I feel sorry for anybody whose first name is Broadway. :-) (j/k)
I don't know who Broadway Nassau was, but I feel sorry for anybody whose first name is Broadway
I think he was related to Broadway Lafayette and Broadway East New York. The family was a major contributor to the IND.
Don't forget their distand 2nd cousin, 74th-Broadway.
Dan
You've hit on a long-running feud in the family. Your entry and Broadway Junction are examples of the BMT supporters. So is Broad Street (an obvious anglicization of the family name).
I forgot to mention in my earlier post that the IND was so grateful to the family that a station on the IND's flagship line, the G, was named after the family as a whole.
Wyckoff. Where the hell is that from?
Pieter Claesen Wyckoff and his descendants (I assume Classon Ave can also be traced back to him). His house, built ca. 1652, still stands today on, of all places, Ralph Avenue; it was even (unofficially) part of a SubTalk Field Trip in December.
Much of northern Manhattan was farmland owned by the Dyckman and Nagel families; Pitkin was just mentioned in this post. The rest I don't know off the top of my head, but I'm guessing Grant was named for the Civil War general, and the rest have to do with landowners or prominent New Yorkers.
A test , so far you are the only one to pass or respond!
You did Good!
avid
What? There really was a Ralph Howard?
If only Ralph and Howard were towns in Upstate NY, because the streets run:
New York
Brooklyn
Kingston
Troy
Albany
Schenectady
Utica
Rochester
Buffalo
Ralph
Howard
Saratoga
Howard is in the Southern Tier, just off Route 17.
MapQuest places Ralph a bit east of Cazenovia, but I've never heard of it myself.
But they're not big like the other cities.
Saratoga and Kingston aren't big, by any stretch of the imagination (although the latter was the state capital for a time).
OTOH, all but Ralph, Howard, and Brooklyn are cities.
Brooklyn was a city when the streets were laid out, and it's much bigger than all of the other places listed (except New York, which it cannot logically be bigger than).
Saratoga isn't part of the city-named system, it's just a coincidence. Ralph and streets to the east extend north to Broadway, where construction is probably older. Therefore it fits into a pattern of Marcy, Tompkins, Throop, Sumner (Marcus Garvey), Lewis, Stuyvesant, Reid (Malcolm X), Patchen, Ralph...
Oh, and as for Bowling Green, it was the British who bowled there. The Dutch used it as a public common.
Kramden???
Uh oh. Your A train stopped at Bowling Green? Guess they need to reinstall those platform edges now.
No, we didn't stop at Bowling Green, I just mentioned it and its history.
avid
Where are the Woods at Woodhaven?
Where are the Woods at Woodhaven
...or the bushes in Bushwick; the ridges in Ridgewood; the glens in Glendale...
Are the Woodhaven woods the same as the Woodlawn woods?
Are the bushes in Bushwick the same as the bushes in Flatbush? Is there a Flatbushwick?
What's the difference between Brooklyn and Lynbrook?
"What's the difference between Brooklyn and Lynbrook?"
Or, in Chicago on the Blue Line, Montrose and Rosemont?
Bushwick is a corruption of a Dutch word meaning town of the woods. The question is where are these woods?
Glendale is right below the hills of Forest/Highland park, and on one side is Ridgewood, so that's the glen right there, and while I'm not sure of Ridgewood's topography, it's near the hills of the glacial moraine.
You mean, where were these woods. All this stuff was named long before the areas were built up as they are now.
And, yes, Ridgewood was named after the ridge that runs through the cemetary separating it from ENY.
....fleeting memoirs of A CHRISTMAS STORY and
it's mil-numerous stints in "all-day" marathons
and a Red Ryder (not Bob) shooting his eye out.
Gene Shepard.
avid
York St. for the Dutchess of York, who now makes her home in NYC.
High St. for the successful drug dealers in NYC.
Has anyone ever swam in Fresh Pond?
What were they looking for in Prospect Park?
Lefferts, the surgeon general, associated with malaria and yellow fevers demise in Panama, I think.
Newkirk, famous subtalk poster.
Kings Highway, ambitious name to lure Geo. Washigton into Politics.
avid
High St. for the successful drug dealers in NYC....Newkirk, famous subtalk poster.
I hate to argue, but I think High St-Brooklyn Bridge was also named for a SubTalker ;).
You are right! How did i miss that?
avid
Might have been the guy on 1277 back in September of 1973.:-)
Would you like a storm door?
July 19, 2001
TRANSIT COP ABUSES POWER
Takes Front Subway Window from Late-Night Railfan
A night-owl railfan riding the number 7 train to Queens from Manhattan early this morning was asked to leave his post at the front window by a transit police officer. No explanation was given for the usurpment, which took place seconds after leaving the Grand Central subway stop.
"I heard something on the policeman's radio about 'Vernon Jackson', but I couldn't make it out, nor the officer's response, which is amazing since I was standing right next to him," said the bewildered railfan. The policeman then proceeded to look out the window throughout the entire trip from Grand Central Station to the next stop at Vernon-Jackson, where he got off the train.
"I would have asked if he was maybe looking for vandals in the tunnel, but I didn't want to disturb the guy," said the passenger, who would only identify himself mysteriously as "Keystone Pete." "He might have been doing some part of his job, I don't know. I guess I'd rather see transit cops on the train and in stations than not. I suppose it's not too much to ask that they too be allowed to railfan a little during a long night's work."
Keystone Pete was happily back at the front window for the rest of his trip. "Don't you just hate all these timers? Well, timers, cops...safety first, I guess!"
The officer was performing a mandated terrorist security check of the tube.
What will the NYPD do now that R-142's rule? is there an officer's seat in those transverse cabs?
WOnder if they'll need a warrant and a battering ram. :)
TPD officers are making periodic ride through river tubes and sometimes even for stretches between stations to check for tresspasers, homeless conditions in addition to security concerns.
Considering the tunnel clearance in the Steinway tubes, unless they're at the track crossover beneath First Ave. a homless person in the tunnel is likely to quickly become a headless person (and an armless and legless person, too) once the first No. 7 train passes by.
Looking for oil?
Shit. you beat me to that one.
Hey, I think we're on to something here! Since New York gets no love from Shrub and Dickey, the MTA might be able to get into their good graces by drilling and marketing that new oil resource. They could form a subsidiary: "Steinway Oil Company," which would turn a profit to help fund transit projects, and since the oil industry gets all of the attention and benefits of this administration, the MTA could even squeeze out some more government funding in the form of corporate welfare from Georgie the Younger. They could butter him up even more by showing him pictures and maps of the new train service they named after him!
It's a good thing you took something for consideration to someone else. When someone works harder than you, sweats more than you, thinks more than you (sarcastic), and has a full-time job putting his life on the line everyday, we all ought to give some respect to those who want something that interferes with our wanting.
And of course, selfish railfans will not be railfans for long...
Railfan Pete.
...were delivered to East 180 at about 1:45 this morning. I saw the diesel locomotive going southbound at Pelham Parkway as i was on a Northbound 2, also a R142.
it was at the 239 yard thats why you saw it going southbound
That train was at 239 YD almost all week. I seen it there Monday and Tuesday. I wanted to get pictures of the yard but did not have time. Being on the No.2 Line was fun the last two days. I had a total of 3 Redbirds and 5 R142's. One of them 6337 had a slow closing door also the computer said I had 2 hot cars.
It kind of takes the fun out of guessing the problem car.
yeah i saw it there sunday 7/15/01
i remember when i was on 6588 and the doors wouldnt close at 96th
those cars on the 2 line have been having problems with the doors. some doors, when the train opens, one side of the door gets jammed and will not open an then the next stop it would open with no problems. its one of the the newest and least of a headeache problems that the Bombardier R-142 has. t/o told me this on tuesday. i was also told that the last R-142's to come in from Plattsburgh needed tweaking up after failing tests on the first try. but they always pass on the second. though, they come in passing on the first for most of them.
Has anyone else noticed that there are no signs directing you from the Manhattan-bound 'L' platform at Lorimer St. to the 'G' train? You would expect there to be a big sign over the top of the stairwell to the transfer, which is at the "front" of the platform, reading "To G Trains" or "To Crosstown Line," but there isn't. Couldn't find any the length of the platform either. I guess the recent rennovation cost us some signage.
(And I just posted this a few days ago.)
That doesn't count? And I thought there was also a modern overhead sign at the stairwell.
I'm actually talking about the Manhattan-bound platform. Unless your negative is reversed, this is the eastern (Canarsie) end of the Canarsie-bound platform. Since we know the transfer is at the extreme western (Manhattan) end of the Lorimer station, and since the arrow is pointing towards us, and since it appears to be the end of the platform, and since the trains arrive to our left, were we facing this picture, we would have to turn backward to reach the transfer. Were we to continue to face this direction, arriving trains would be coming towards our front, and the transfer would be in front of the head car as it stops, a whole train-length away from and to the rear of where we're standing.
If the negative were reversed, so would all the text.
I thought these captions were installed on both platforms, near the transfer. Maybe not.
Duh, about the negative. I'll check again when I'm there next week.
I'll be at that station(Both sets of platforms) Saturday overnight/Sunday AM and will check.
click here for USENET post
According to the New England Transportation Site only car 3804 is out of service. The rest are still active.
story in the Boston hearld
The following is taken from the "Running Times" which is a bi-monthly RTO employee newsletter. Since it took a while to type, I didn't bother spell-checking or error searching. So deal with it :)
When NYC Transit embarked on a mission 14 years ago to develop a new generation of subway car, no one was really sure what the results would be. The goal was clear however. The cars would have to incorporate fresh new technologies, be reliable, energy efficient, easy to maintain and capable of meeting the needs of customers and employees well into the 21st century.
After an exhausting and sometimes bumpy development period, this vision became reality last year with the arrival of the spiffy new R142/142A cars. Now it's Subdivision B's time to shine in the spotlight as the R143 subway car, designed and equipped to be used with CBTC (Communications-Based Train Control), is about to debut.
Featuring a clean stainless steel interior, the handsome R143 has the enviable distinction of being the most technologically-advanced subway car in NYCTA history. T/O's and C/R's will be delighted with the car's ease of operation and maintenance personnel will be pleased at how easy it is to diagnose and service.
Subways' Senior VP Joe Hoffman is both eager and excited about the new arrival of the cars. "These new generation of subway cars are the first to be designed with input from both customers and employees and incorporate technologies never before used on the NYC Subway. If the goal of the New Technology Train Program was to develop cars that are customer and user-friendly and easy to maintain, then the result is a success. Everyone will love these cars."
TECHNOLOGICALLY-ADVANCED FEATURES
In addition to CBTC, the energy efficient R143 is equipped with other advanced technologies that offer improved levels of safety, comfort, and reliability. These cars are designed to be easier to maintain than older models and are expected to remain in service for at least 50 years. It is also important to note that these cars, along with the R142/142A are the only cars in the TA's fleet that have computer-controlled propulsion and braking systems.
A key feature of the R143 is CBTC. Originally known as Moving Block Signal Technology, CBTC, has been around for almost 3 decades and is currently in use on Vancouver's SkyTrain, the Paris Metro's Meteor Line (#14) and San Francisco's MUNI system as well as other systems both here and abroad.
Instead of using the century-old fixed block and track circuit based system to guide the safe movement of trains, CBTC uses high-speed bi-dierectional communication between the train and control system. Under this design, the signal block moves along with the train, better identifying the train's exact location, thus allowing trains to operate with tighter headways.
The first 8 cars of the 212-car order, manufactured by Kawasaki arrived late last month. The initial cars will first undergo extensive testing under simulated operating conditions and then be required to complete a 30 day acceptance test in customer service. Following successful completion of the test, where the cars must experience no in-service mechanical failures for 30 consecutive days, the remaining cars will begin being accepted. These cars will be assigned to the L line and CBTC is scheduled to begin operation at the end of 2004.
IMPROVED CUSTOMER COMMUNICATIONS
The 60 foot cars feature bench-style seating with lumbar supports that accomodate customers better than bucket seats. Also included are vertical hand holds, wider doors for easier customer boarding and alighting, electronic strip maps and signs that display route and station info, final destination, next stop and the time of day.
In addition, there are arrows indicating which side the doors will open, intercoms for customers to communicate with the crew in the event of an emergency, a PA system with interior and exterior speakers and prerecorded announcements with station-stop transfer info.
The R143 cars, linked permanently in 4-car units to eliminate identical components on each car, have increased soundproofing and an air bag suspension system for a quieter and smoother ride. For greater customer and employee comfort the cars have two independent air conditioning units so in the event of failure, one will remain operational.
OPERATING PERSONNEL IMPROVEMENTS
T/O's (but not railfans) will appreciate the spacious full-width cab that is ergonomically correct with easy to reach controls. The cabs have two display screens; one for the T/O top monitor train-line operations such as speed, side door status and braking systems and the other for maintenance functions. For operational safety, the cars have a console-mounted hands-free microphone for communicating with the Control Center and the C/R. A 3-speed windshield wiper and vision glass defroster, complete with windshield washer fluid identical to an automobile's is included.
C/R's are going to welcome the 2 separate microphone locations for the PA system to accomodate persons of varying heights. Moreover, a volume control switch for the PA system is also featured.
Train crews will be pleased that the emergency brake cord is in a recessed compartment with a door that sounds an audible alarm when opened. For improved security the cars feature windows at each end for easy viewing into adjacent cars.
"Look around and be ready because Subdivision B's train of tomorrow is only days away," said Nat Ford, Chief Transportation Officer. "Whenit arrives, check it out and you may be so asantly surprised that you'll look to pick on the L line."
(Zman's note: I wonder if he made that last statement with a straight face?)
Press releases by public relations flacks really can pile the cow patties high at times, can't they? :-)
Cow patties doesn't begin to describe it. After months of riding the R-142As, I have no major reason to believe that their BMT sisters will be a big leap forward, barring the actual CBTC equipment that came with the cars.
>>I have no major reason to believe that their BMT sisters will be a big leap forward, barring the actual CBTC equipment that came with the cars.<<
I guess you mean a big leap forward from the R-142, right? because from a maintenence/TA worker standpoint, they are much better, and from a rider standpoint, they will be much nicer to ride.
"they" as in??
Thanks for taking the time to type the article for us.
I have a few comments/questions:
1)"The R143 cars, linked permanently in 4-car units" Does this limit their use to the Eastern Division and maybe the C train? If they are permanently linked into four car units, what about all the B division lives that run 10 care trains? And even assuming all these cars will be assigned as 8 car trains, they are getting 212; that equals exactly 26.50 trains????? One extra 4 car train for maintence fill ins?
2)Do the IND R-142 cars have this new CBTC technology?
1) It doesn't "limit" them, but the purpose of these cars are for Eastern Division use, primarily the (L) and (M) lines. With all of the eastern division lines using 8-car consist trains, the R-143s are perfect. Now as for the extra 4-cars, who knows!?!???!?
2) The A-Division R-142/R-142A Subway Cars can be set up for CBTC, I found this out recently. However since the IRT is not the test platform for the CBTC system, I guess it wasn't really pushed in the "fanfare" finding out.
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
>>Now as for the extra 4-cars, who knows!?!???!?<<
You guys do realize that not every car goes out everyday, right? This 'extra' 4-car set will sit on the sides, probably with other 4 car sets, and wait to replace a 4 car set that is running. These cars are not 'extra' at all.
[The A-Division R-142/R-142A Subway Cars can be set up for CBTC, I found this out recently. ]
What exactly did you find out? For the matter any car can be set up for CBTC.
Arti
Like the R-143, it has the components for CBTC but will not implimented until X date. Judging by the way the CBTC program is headed. my guess we probably won't even see CBTC in the A-division until it's proven on the (L) line which can take anywhere from months to years.
So don't hold your breathe for the CBTC on the R-142 program to happen soon, just know that the R-142/R-142A order cars DO have the components to run in a CBTC style.
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
[just know that the R-142/R-142A order cars DO have the components to run in a CBTC style. ]
We had this discussion with David a while back, and he claimmed that not to be the case.
Arti
I talked with someone who worked on the R-142 design project and got the specs, so I take that guys word CLEAR over Davids!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Ok I went on for a second opinion from another person that worked on the R-142 project and this is what I got:
Neither car class has provisions for CBTC. There is very little room under the cars because they are IRT size. Further, they didn't want to even try to make provisions for CBTC because they felt the cars would be retired before there would be any mony for CBTC on the IRT Main Lines.
Ok so now that I've heard two different things, I'm confuseded. However I think I'm gonna go with the second guy I talked to because he is more reliable than the later, so I guess NO CBTC on the R-142s.
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Ok I went on for a second opinion from another person that worked on the R-142 project and this is what I got:
Neither car class has provisions for CBTC. There is very little room under the cars because they are IRT size. Further, they didn't want to even try to make provisions for CBTC because they felt the cars would be retired before there would be any mony for CBTC on the IRT Main Lines.
When you think about it, and consider the fact that the R-142's are likely to have a service life of 40+ years, the last sentence is rather depressing.
story in the Boston Herald
A $1.50 fine for non-payment?! Cry me a river and play "Hearts and Flowers"!
Where I get on the Metra, at a busy express station so the village knows people will park no matter what (*cough* Franklin Park *cough*), non-payment gets a $30 ticket! And as the article said, feeding the wrong slot counts as non-payment. The village sells a $20 (same price for resident and non-resident!) monthly parking tag, but they don't publicize that they sell it. I wonder why. :^)
story in the Boston Herald
I have no great love for cell phones, but I suppose it's better for people to use them on the subway than to use then while driving.
Mark
click here
Yesterday, I was on an N train going through the 60th Street tube on G1 track. I got on at Queensboro Plaza. The lead car was 5094, an R68A. As it entered Queensboro Plaza, it looked a bit weird because from the front end window, I could see inside the passenger area of the car. Anyway, I got on and looked through the open cab door, and saw a man in uniform talking to the person in T/O position. The train left the station and stopped near signal G1 111. We waited there until all the signals from G1 111 to the portal showed green. As we were going through the tunnel, I started looking for the speedometer, as the cab door was still open. I couldn't beleive what it said: 62! (not 62 factorial or 3.14699732604*1085, but sixty-two. If it were the former, we'd be going 1.48705613939*1069 light years/sec; We'd be outside the known universe in less than a second!)
This hippo can hustle!
The Japanese Kawasaki R68As are 10x faster than thier French Westinghouse Counterpart, R68s.
GO KAWASAKI!!!!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Even the R68 can achieve those speeds on long runs. The R68's rep is not built on it's top speed, but it's acceleration. It just takes a lot longer for the R68 to reach it's top speed than other cars do.
Do you think that the Westinghouse Amrail R-68s can reach 60 MPH if given half a chance?
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Well the R68 I rode on the Astoria-bound N today (7/19) practically flew through the 60th Street tunnel. I don't know if it did 60, but it sure felt fast.
By the way, the Astoria line has the W added to its platform signs, and Q and W signs have been added to the Broadway line between Lexington and Times Square. But below Times Square, they still have the old platform signs.
>>Do you think that the Westinghouse Amrail R-68s can reach 60 MPH if given half a chance?<<
Yup.
I had more then one R68 hit 59mph. I seem not to be about to get that 1mph to get to 60mph. But ether way thay still rock alot.
Robert
If they changed the gearing on the R-68s could they accelerate faster? Also what can be done about the rocking from side to side. Maybe if they do this both the R-68s and R-68As can lose their Hippo nickname.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
The R-68s have a higher gear ratio than other cars, permitting higher speeds. They need to have the final field shunt step restored.
Yes, but only on long stretches, or where gravity is a factor (like the 60th St. tunnel).
"Yes, but only on long stretches, or where gravity is a factor (like the 60th St. tunnel)."
I've ridden BART a couple of times across San Francisco Bay. This was several years ago. The train maintained 45 mph under the bay. BART subway cars are 75' cars, as are Washington Metrorail cars, if I am not mistaken.
I was on a BART train 20 years ago which hit 72 in the Transbay Tube.
I'm glad to hear that if given the chance the Hippos can move at a pretty good clip. Can the Westinghouse Amrail R-68s reach 62 MPH? on a long straight away?
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I would think so. It's a gearing issue, probably, not a horsepower issue. Other posters to this site have pointed to differences in acceleration.
Then they should change the gear ratios on the R-68s so that they can move faster. Maybe the Hippos can be fast cars if given a chance.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
But was that train huffing and puffing going uphill in that tunnel? The BMT standards were famous for that.
>>>...I could see inside the passenger area of the car. <<<
UMM... that's called a reflection. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I think he meant that he could see the passenger area through the opened TO's cab door, as the train entered QBP.
[I think he meant that he could see the passenger area through the opened TO's cab door, as the train entered QBP.]
Correct!
Actually, all car classes hit between 60 and 63 on that stretch of track.
What?!? even those slow hippos?!? you're a liar zman! hippo's do more like 20 on that stretch. I swear that's true.... (just kidding)
Ok. You've got me. The hippos can't go past 25 without shimmying.
But seriously, if you get a slant 40 on that stretch, it'll shake more than a bowl of jello on a washer going through the spin cycle.
I gotta get out there and ride that! My top speed record (for times when I could actually see the speeedometer) was set tonight on a downtown #2 at 12:01am between 72nd and 42nd. He hit 46mph. And he only slowed down because if some track workers. We then hit 42mph a few more times. But now I want to ride this 60mph+ N line.
It all depends on what T/O you get.
If you get one who doesn't work the N often, and thus doesn't know the timers, then he probably won't go past 52. If you get a regular, then you'll go as fast as 63.
Remember also, folks, that no matter what car class one is riding, the train gets a boost by going downhill, and that once the middle of the tube is reached the train begins to climb uphill. Any Train Operators out there want to tell us what the speedometer says when the train gets to the 11th Street Cut or (the other way) the top of the platform at Lexington Avenue?
David
At the cut, the train'll do about 26 at the switches.
At Lex, the N (if it reached the 60's) will do about 30. The R (which only reaches 51) will do about 23.
Those numbers are about what I figured. Going southbound through the Joralemon Street Tunnel, trains fly until they have to go uphill. By the time they approach Borough Hall, they're doing 19 and wheezing.
David
They need to put metic digital speedometers on the R-68s. Then they could hit 100 in the tunnel. :-)
Now if they could only deal with the problem of those speeds between Manhattan and Brooklyn on the Manny B...
story in the Boston Herald
This week's Time Out New York has an article about the July 22 route changes. It states that there will also be several changes to station names, as follows:
Lexington Ave (B,Q) >> Lexington Ave - 63 St
Lexington Ave ((N.R) >> Lexington Ave - 59 St
Lexington Ave (E,F) >> Lexington Ave - 53 St
Fifth Ave (N,R) >> Fifth Ave - 60 St
Fifth Ave (E,F) >> Fifth Ave - 53 St
Second Ave >> Lower East Side - Second Ave
Interestingly, it doesn't say Fifth Ave on the 7 was changed to Fifth Ave - 42 St. Also, shouldn't Lexington - 59th be Lexington - 60th? I guess that's to avoid confusion since it's a transfer point to 59th on the 4,5,6.
Does anyone know if this change is reflected on the new maps? Will there be new signs in the staions?
That last one is pretty stupid. The only part of the Lower East Side I ever go to is served by Essex/Delancey and East Broadway, and Grand and the Bowery to a lesser extent. The official "Lower East Side" station is in a different neighborhood entirely.
They probably added "Lower East Side" to Second Avenue because it will soon be a terminal station for the V line and they wanted to have a place name for the destination signs.
- Lyle Goldman
There you go!
If the Mta is making the station names proper,shouldnt they have these names:
Saratoga avenue>Saratoga/Livonia Avenue(3)
14th street Unionsquare(L,N,R,4,5,6,>Union square park(L)
59th street>59th street Cental Park west(A,B,C,D,1,9)
Roosevelt Island>Main street Roosevelt Island(Q or S which ever suits you).
ALl of these names (Except Lower East Side) are "complex" Stations . The NYCT is finally starting to do what even insiders have done for years --use of the combined name such as Myrtle/Wyckoff, Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau, Delancey/Essex etc.I have even startged hearing J line conductors refer to Eastern parkway as "Eastern Parkway- Broadway Junction" As far as Union Square Park the name Union Square suggests the park and Central Park South's official name is still 59th street.
I'll have to correct you on that last point. Central Park South is as much 59th Street as Central Park West is 8th Avenue: not at all. It falls in the grid where 59th Street would fall, but it's not 59th Street itself. (For that very reason, 110th Street on the 2/3 is inaccurately named.)
I don't think the 59th Street name is inappropriate, since 59th Street would run west from the station if only a building (and now a construction site) weren't placed in the way.
I thought the official station name was 59th Street-Columbus Circle, in any case.
As for Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau, that's quite a mouthful. The entire complex should really be renamed simply Fulton Street.
Since were renaing stations why not change "Briarwood-Van Wyck Blvd" to "Briarwood" (Van Wyck Blvd Has Not existed since the early 1950's), "Jamaica-Van Wyck" To "Jamaica Avenue", "23 Street-Ely Avenue" to "23 Street-Court Square"
I know that the old street names (#7 Rawson, Lowery, Bliss, Lincoln, Fisk. A - Hudson, Boyd, Oxford, Greenwood. & G - Van Alst) are not show on The Map, But are their still signs/Tile in the Stations.
Keep in mind that if you change the name of an IND station, either you'll have to change the vintage IND signs, incurring the wrath of many here, or some of the signs will disagree with what's printed on the map.
Although I'm no big fan of the IND, for some reason I really like the color of the tile at 23rd-Ely. I'd hate to see it go.
I think the 59th St. name on the 1/A/B/C/D dates from the time before the NY Coliseum was built, and 59th St. ran through from Columbus Circle to 9th/Columbus Ave. (since the name changes at 59th St.)
As for the Second Ave. name, the one the IND builders and route sign desingers gave the station in 1932 should be good enough - Houston St.-Second Ave., unless the MTA is afraid some people will think the next stop after Brodaway-Lafayette on the F/V trains is someplace in southeast Texas.....
On the '64 map (Red, Black, Green lines) the EP/BJ/BWAY-ENY complex shows as Eastern Pkwy-Bway Jct if my hazy memory serves me well.
Even has a broken green line through for the flyover/flyunder.
On another subject-
The flyover pictures came out pretty good- considering the day was so glum. Especially good was the final approach to Eastern Parkway with the Red Barn right in the middle of the picture. I got #4433's bar in most of the pictures so you can tell what kind of train I was on.
You could feel the whole train shudder as we went into the curve. Top speed: MAYBE 5 MPH, if that.
wayne
That flyover also has a note: "through service rush hours only".
I'm looking at the new map on my wall now, the name changes have already been made.
A few notes:
5th ave / 53rd is already signed as such.
110st was renamned Central Park North.
While they're at it, why don't they drop "Avenue", "Blvd", "Pkwy", "Road" and "Street" from stations that have named streets? For example, Canal Street would be simply "Canal," Fort Hamilton Pkwy would be just "Fort Hamilton," Simpson Street would be just "Simpson" and so forth. Every other transit around the world that I know of does it that way or uses a nearby neighborhood, park or landmark for station names. Even conductors tend to omit "Avenue" or "Street" when announcing stops. I've had conductors on the 2 and 5 who announce "Freeman is next," "Simpson next stop," "Intervale," etc. The TA might as well make it official.
Fort Hamilton is also a destination- 95St/Fort Hamilton.To drop the "Pkwy" from the name would increasse confusions for thode siring service to the area called Foirt Hamilton.
A few of us are going to re-do Thurston's field trip to Rockaway and Long Beach on Sunday Aug. 5. Anyone else interested? Thurston? How about you?
If the time and the weather is good, I'll be there (again).
Today in 1967 a Brooklyn bound F train left Queens being the first subway car with air conditioning
I'm sure everyone remebers the 135th st. "A" train accident, when car 5282 was torn apart. 5282, needless to say, was scrapped. But, what about the other 3 cars that were in the set with 5282? what happened to them?
Does the TA still run this type of train?
I remember seeing them in the early 80's late at night...
Thanks
I have seen the MTA run the VAC-TRAK through the system, but no detergent and rinse train. That does not mean that it does not exist.
Actually,
It was two trains. A detergent train, followed by a rinse train. Don't know if they used Ajax or Mr.Clean :)
The MTA has so many cool work trains!
It seems that community involvement has forced the TA to reconsider to reconsider their plans for Grand Street and surrounding areas
Peace,
ANDEE
After the uproar that occured in Chinatown when the word was leaked that Grand St. was closing, there was a guaranteed fight on the MTA's hands. And judging from the service patterns I saw on those nice little brochures, management went down for a ten - count.
That article is so full of errors, I can't tell what it's trying to say.
The M is scheduled to run in Manhattan middays as well as rush hours. (A recent several-month GO has curtailed that service, but it is supposed to be there.) However, it only runs to Brooklyn rush hours.
Is the article trying to say that the M will run to Brooklyn 17 hours a day? Is that just weekdays, or weekends too? Where in Brooklyn will it go?
What's the point of a shuttle bus to DeKalb? Canal is closer, and there's already a full-time shuttle there for those too lazy to walk a few blocks: it's called the J train. The W, which most of these people presumably want, doesn't even stop at DeKalb. And the M most certainly does not have 24-hour service to DeKalb! Where do they get this?
>>What's the point of a shuttle bus to DeKalb? Canal is closer, and there's already a full-time shuttle there for those too lazy to walk a few blocks: it's called the J train. The W, which most of these people presumably want, doesn't even stop at DeKalb. And the M most certainly does not have 24-hour service to DeKalb! Where do they get this?<<
They're saying that the M will run to brooklyn middays as well. The shuttle to DeKalb is a great idea: do you know how close to the bridge both stations are? It's to keep Grand st. connected to DeKalb.
And, the Article does not say that the M has 24 hour DeKalb service. It says that DeKalb is an M station, and that DeKalb has 24 hour service.
Read the article again. It's riddled with errors.
Part of the "compromise," according to the article, is that "the M train will run in Manhattan from 5 a.m. until 10 p.m. instead of just during rush hours as it does now." Check your handy M schedule and you'll see that the M already does run to Manhattan at those times on weekdays (although midday Manhattan service has been suspended in recent months due to a GO). Now, the author of the article may have thought this meant what you think it means, but my guess is that he simply had no clue of the M's route.
And, again, what's the point of a shuttle bus to DeKalb? Do you think hordes of Grand patrons are going to DeKalb? No, they're going past DeKalb. They might as well get on the very same train at Canal instead of at DeKalb -- they'd get where they're going sooner and the TA wouldn't waste as much money on superfluous bus service. (There's no need for a Grand-Canal shuttle; the J train already serves as a Bowery-Canal shuttle.) The W (the route that, according to earlier reports, Grand patrons will miss the most) never even stops at DeKalb! Weekdays and evenings it bypasses DeKalb. Weekends it doesn't go past Pacific. Nights it doesn't go past 36th. Only when the M is running to Brooklyn (south of Chambers) is DeKalb of any use, and at those times the M also stops at the Bowery.
This article says nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if its author misunderstood the situation completely and nothing's happening at all. I would like to see off-peak M service past Chambers, and (as I've proposed many times here) Grand Street should be the south terminal of the Queensbridge shuttle and, later, the V. That's all that's warranted.
>>And, again, what's the point of a shuttle bus to DeKalb? Do you think hordes of Grand patrons are going to DeKalb? No, they're going past DeKalb. They might as well get on the very same train at Canal instead of at DeKalb -- they'd get where they're going sooner and the TA wouldn't waste as much money on superfluous bus service. (There's no need for a Grand-Canal shuttle; the J train already serves as a Bowery-Canal shuttle.) The W (the route that, according to earlier reports, Grand patrons will miss the most) never even stops at DeKalb! Weekdays and evenings it bypasses DeKalb. Weekends it doesn't go past Pacific. Nights it doesn't go past 36th. Only when the M is running to Brooklyn (south of Chambers) is DeKalb of any use, and at those times the M also stops at the Bowery.<<
The whole problem here is that people do not wan to walk to canal St. The Shuttle bus rectifies this.
Look, I'm not saying that some of this service isn't unnecesary, it is. But if it makes the riders happy, then so be it.
Once Canal St shuttle bus riders realize that they're only traveling one third the speed of the pedestrians, they'll start walking or taking alternate routes. The 10 PM-5 AM DeKalb shuttle will be a good way for novice bus operators to get more practice without passengers. Aren't most of the businesses whose patrons are losing their "vital link" closed during those hours?
Well if the bus shuttle is only late nights then there shouldn't be much traffic.
No, the problem is that a few loudmouths like to complain.
Not everyone in Chinatown is better served by Grand than by Canal. Of those who are, most don't have to walk past Grand to get to Canal. Nobody who walks at a reasonable pace loses more than eight minutes.
Anybody who doesn't want to walk that distance can walk one or two short blocks to the Bowery station and take the J train one stop to Canal. The J train runs between those two stations at all times.
Most people in this city don't have a choice of either walking eight minutes or changing trains. I wouldn't be surprised if most passengers walk over eight minutes and change trains. This complaint is frivolous.
For an elderly person the walk from Grand to Canal is a LONG walk.
So that's how it works now? If any elderly people live eight minutes away from the nearest station, they're entitled to demand a shuttle bus from the TA?
Once again: there already is a shuttle bus from Grand to Canal. It's called the J train. There's no reason to prefer DeKalb over Canal; at any given time of day, every train that stops at DeKalb also stops at Canal (but some trains that stop at Canal don't stop at DeKalb), and trains cross the bridge faster than buses.
Why am I upset over this? Because it's an absolute waste of money. I'm paying for this shuttle bus, as is everyone else who rides the subway. That same money could be used to improve train or bus service where it's actually needed or to push off the next fare hike a little while.
>Check your handy M schedule and you'll see that the M already does run to Manhattan at those times on weekdays
It doesn't run until 10PM. The last two trains to Broad leave around 7 and return around 8. Also, it doesn't start at 5. the first Broad St trains leave around 6. (I just posted on the M a week ago. It was a 4:30 AM job, and we did 3 round trip shottles, and out trip to Bay Pkway left Met at 7:20)
The increased hours will definitely help me and my wife in the evenings.
What I want to know, is what about WEEKENDS? Does the 5am-10pm apply to that as well? They said the bus would only be nights, so they would have to run one of the options weekends. (It would especially be good to replace the W shuttle).
You're right; I wasn't being precise with my times. The first M to Manhattan leaves Met at 5:46 (only two minutes after a shuttle to Myrtle!); the last M from Manhattan leaves Broad at 8:33.
My point was that the reporter clearly didn't realize that the M, when it runs its full length, runs from Queens to Brooklyn to Manhattan and back into Brooklyn, and that it's the south end, not the north end, that's truncated when the M doesn't run its full route. Contrary to what's printed in the article, the M already does run to Manhattan middays -- only not from the south, because that's where service is cut.
It would definitely be nice if the M ran to Brooklyn from 5 to 10, but given the reporter's track record, I'm not so sure I'd take the article's word for anything.
Weekends? Something, either the J or the M, should really run at least to Broad -- not for Broad itself, but for the transfer at Fulton. If anything is extended, it will probably be the J, given the history of the two. I doubt anything will run to Brooklyn, for the same reason the W is confined to Brooklyn on weekends -- if track work on the bridge sends the N, R, and Q all via tunnel, it will be a bit too crowded for the M, and if track work is in the tunnel itself, nothing will make it past Broad. (Then again, if the track work is on the N/R in lower Manhattan, the TA might send the N via bridge, cancel the R entirely, and extend the J to Bay Ridge.)
In that case why not extend the Q to Queens or have the W make R stops in Queens o all together?
I just hope they raise the fare to pay for it instead of deferring maintenance.
For what, the useless bus? I hope they require the complainers to pay for every penny.
(For what, the useless bus? I hope they require the complainers to pay for every penny.)
They won't be on the bus. The added M service might work, however.
Well, the M train extension was an excellent idea: It required no extra trains. The present trains that the M lays up at Coney and Metropolitan will just stay in service. Plus, that Grand st. shuttle bus is the best one yet: it virtually makes a D train between Grand and DeKalb.
Will this mean the M again terminates at 9th av. middays? if so, i'd like to see how M trains turn around at 9th.
There is one problem I have here though: the article says the work won't end until 2005 now...
Well finally the residents of Chinatown get something they've been fighting for! :-)
I knew that M would have to get extended!
That's just a journalistic error. The MTA Website states work will be completed in 2004.
The DOT chief engineer on the Manny B project has stated it will be done in 2004.
And if you believe that, there’s a bridge I’d like to sell you…
:-)
John
I do believe it. And I've already bought into a bridge - the Manny B. :-)
9th Avenue is a three-track station with two island platforms. When M trains terminated there middays from 1987 to 1995 they used to pull into the center track at 9th and reverse direction there.
I just figured that out. When I first looked at the track map, it looked like the Center track could not reach the uptown track again, but I misread it.
They could always pull into the lower level center track (with no passengers of course)...
I'm sure they'll do that at some point of they ever have to run N trains express on the B due to work on the Sea Beach.
Great. They built a constituency and made a persuasive case to elected officials. I hope the new plan executes smoothly.
This post is opinion and not fact:
I guess we now have to look for an AUgust 2001 Map? or a July Map with a notation on the cover of the revision.
It's okay. The July map already has two major errors, as pointed out here (V instead of G to Roosevelt and a free transfer between the G and the 7 at Court (House) Square.
The F also doesn't have a stop at W8th st in Brooklyn. Error made because the orange line for the D was simply changed to yellow, a new line was drawn in for the F and they neglected to put in a dot.
The F is listed as stopping there, but people usually look at dots on lines rather than the list of routes stopping there.
True, but that's less of a problem since nobody will be seriously misled. A few people might take the Q instead of the F from Manhattan, but that's fine; some might plan on taking the F to Stillwell and transferring to a Q to backtrack to W8, and they'll be pleasantly surprised.
I'd say they walk, Stillwell to W8th is slightly more than a trainlength.
Arti
A few things:
1. M to South Brooklyn - Good idea, I fully support it. I presume a "split M" service will be run during the Willy B single-tracking during middays (unless they're done with that).
2. Grand street (S) extended to W4th in November:
- I have a funny feeling that they were planning on doing this anyway.
- The shuttle will run less frequently.
3. Shuttle Bus: MTA has no intention whatsoever of keeping it. It was done to appease, and they fully intend to cancel it due to "lack of ridership" once people find alternatives. In fact, I think the bus drivers will be encouraged to take a circuitous route just to piss riders off and encourage use of the subway. I also guarantee from day night one the bus will be completely empty from DeKalb to Canal, as everyone will ignore annoucements and end up in canal, where they will either walk or transfer to the J to Bowery, and thus it will be set up as their new daily routine.
The long-term GO on the J and M is finally over (after tomorrow, at least).
Yahoo!!!! I assume the weight restriction on the bridge will be lifted, so buses and trucks can go there again? If so, then I will no longer be able to ride the QM11 over the Manny B (which was fun).
FYI...it was on this day in 1967 that the first air-conditioned subway train (R38 protos., I believe) entered revenue service on the F train. INFO
Peace,
ANDEE
1967 was the first time the subways had A/c cool
Yeah, but it was only ONE train for quite a while.
Peace,
ANDEE
After the initial few runs I think they split up the 10 R-38s, which then showed up only as their own AC married pairs, usually, it seemed, on the E train. It was interesting to see passengers faces who were getting on if you were riding one of those things (and it also gave riders of both the E and F R-38/R-40 trains in the late 60s and early 70s a good lesson for the summer in roof grill designs -- perforated grill the full length of the car = axleflow fans; grill openings only at the ends of the cars = air conditioning).
I had always thought the first air conditioned subway train car (prototypical or production) was an R-15. The project was unsuccessful, because the A/C's air vents got clogged with dust in a week, and then water dripped on commuters. Then the A/C was removed...
You are correct about that. However I don't think that the R-15 experiment was an entire train. Only one or two cars IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I had always thought the first air conditioned subway train car (prototypical or production) was an R-15"
Only one car, R-15 #6239 which reposes in the Transit Museum in downtown Brooklyn.
Bill "Newkirk"
Correct. This was in 1955 and was followed in 1956 by 10 R-17 cars (6800-6809), which were the first NYC subway cars DELIVERED with air conditioning equipment. The system made the cars cool but didn't dehumidify them properly, if memory serves. The units were replaced with more powerful ones, but by 1962 NYCT(A) had given up and replaced the air conditioners with the traditional Axiflo fans.
Then John Lindsay was elected Mayor and made air conditioned subway cars a priority. NYCT(A) was able to make a change order with St. Louis Car Company in time to re-engineer the R-38s so that the last ten cars (4140-4149) could be air conditioned. The train NY1 cited didn't have ten air conditioned cars, though -- they weren't all in yet. Again going by memory from what I've read, four cars were air conditioned.
David
Don't forget the R-11's, upon rrebuilding in 1964 (you can see the compartments at the ends of the car in the museum. These were vented through the axiflows, and still didn't last, though.
Where were the compartments on the older experiments located at? (In the middle, like the redbirds, or on the ends like newer cars and B-div. rebuilds). When I first began going to the Transit museum, years ago, I used to see an interior picture of what looked like an R26-33/maiinlin 36 with end mounted AC's, just like on the newer cars. This could have been a 17 with the end door changed. (Or perhaps it could have been a realistic drawing?) Another poster describes the experimental unit (doesn't seem to know which car class) as "the AC units came very low into the car and blew like a jet exhaust". Still, where in the car were they located?
The R-11s were NEVER air conditioned, although they were designed to be converted to air conditioning.
David
They could of tried to use that with todays redbirds
I've looked through 2 engineering documents and neither refer to HVAC being installed on the R-17s when delivered. This is also true for all IRT car classes until R-62. Is it possible that you have the documentation or can point me in the right direction?
I don't remember the exact date, but look at the New York Times Index for 1956. I have read the contemporary articles on the subject. One of the articles also mentions that on the inaugural trip of the air conditioned R-17 train, music was piped in over the PA system!
Also, from pages 9-10 of the NYCT(A) 1955-56 Annual Report:
"Experiments are being made with ten air conditioned cars to determine whether available air conditioning equipment can be successfully applied to rapid transit cars operating under the extreme conditions of heat, humidity, and crowding which may be found in the subways."
David
Thanks! That'll give me a good starting point.
Here's some more:
Page 67 of UPTOWN DOWNTOWN by Stan Fischler and pages 231 and 301 of EVOLUTION OF NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS by Gene Sansone also provide information on the air conditioned R-17s.
David
FYI...it was on this day in 1967 that the first air-conditioned subway train (R38 protos., I believe) entered revenue service on the F train.
It probably would have taken longer if the TA hadn't been embarassed by PATH's ability to A/C its cars.
>>>It probably would have taken longer if the TA hadn't been embarassed by PATH's ability to A/C its cars.
<<<
This and John Lindsays pressure were, more than likely, major factors.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe that the first AC cars were part of the R40 series.
There were several variants of the R40:
* slant, no A/C
* slant, with A/C
* modified ends (all with A/C)
-- Ed Sachs
True, but there were 10 R38s delivered with A/C, these are the cars they're talking about.
Peace,
ANDEE
I recall an "experimental" air conditioned train on the Lexingtion Avenue line in the late 50's! It was only one train, the AC units came very low into the car and blew like a jet exhaust. Needless to say, the experiment was not followed up with any regular equipment.
And it was today in 1967 that I embarked on my first day-long railfanning trip with my mother. She even remembers it, too. Several firsts including riding on the R-10s and BMT standards.
I got one at the museum gift shop at GCT. They had the multilingual version. You can tell the map was printed in the last few days, or even hours, by the smell of the ink and quality of the paper. Now, from what I understand, the W will run express out of Astoria during the whole day, downtown AM, uptown PM, just like the 6 and 7 trains. Am I right, or is it only going to be rush hour like the 5 is in the Bronx? By the way, any other map buffs out there? Besides subways, I love city and transit maps.
My site
It will run express from Astoria from about 6 AM to Noon, towards Astoria from noon to about 9:00 PM. These times are approximate.
6 AM to 1 PM, 2PM to 9 PM.
Yeah! I consider myself a map buff. I have all kinds of maps at home. I'm knocking myself for throwing away the NYCT maps I had dating back to the World's Fair (1964). I too like to look at the details and especially the discrepancies between what's on the map vs. reality.
Regards,
Jose
I also have a bunch of maps. Also interesting to me, but slightly off-topic here is my 1967 NYC street map put out by Mobil. It shows the old West Side Highway(with exits marked) and also markings for Interstate 78 along Conduit Blvd/Ave. This not only gives us a hint as to where one of Moses' projects would have gone (highway right from the Holland Tunnel to JFK), but also, at least in my mind has some bearing about last week's thread RE: the 76th/Pitkin Station.
You might have ran into me, I was around there about noon to 1pm, looking around at all the nice map/subway things. I wanted to get one of the subway line T-Shirts...they don't make them in the B (my old line) or in the W (my new line), so I was gonna get an F (the second line i use) but they didn't have any in my size.....likewise for the shirt that had the HIGH VOLTAGE warning on it.
They've got some wacky stuff there, like the shot glasses with subway signs on them. I'm going back in a few weeks when they get more tshirts in.
(And of course i grabbed 3 of the new maps.)
-West End Scott, Dubya rider
Well it looks like I will be stoppping at the Museum Gift Shop tomorrow (7/20). I hope they don't run out of new maps by then.
They have hundreds in the racks, and thousands more in the cabinet underneath. They ain't running out.
Question about The (new) Map: Are the W express stops from 57th street on to Astoria shown with express station circles? (I guess I'll find out soon enough anyway when I get my own, just thought I'd ask...)
No. The W is listed as running express between Canal and 34th and local between 34th and Queensboro Plaza. That solves the problem of 49th, which would otherwise be served by one of three expresses.
What about Astoria Blvd and Ditmars Blvd on the Astoria el, for the peak-direction express?
I don't understand your question. All trains stop at Astoria and Ditmars.
Are they shown as express stations, with the other Astoria line stations shown as local stations? Or are they all local stations?
Oh. All local, with the W running around the actual local stops.
Wow, another misteak.
Well, it looks like I'll be stopping at the Transit store at Grand Central Terminal to get some more maps !
Dave:
After the WONDERFULL job you've done speeding up Subtalk, I hate to bring this up. When you preview your post, if you want to make a change and hit the back button, the form resets to blank. This is disheartening if you've written a long post. As the worst speller in the US, I need that back button. To comprimise, I've been copying my post to the clipboard before previewing it. Just wanted to let you know. The rest of subtalk is awesome. I don't know what you did, but the speed is great!
Tony
It's not the site, it's your web cache. Clear your temporary internet files (internet cache) and try again.
-Hank
Like Hank said, that's totally a function of your browser.
OH! That did it! Thanks! Because I have a 60GB hard drive, Windows was kind enough to automatically assign about 30 gigs for my cache. I cleared it and reset it to a smaller size. Thanks again!
The smaller size will cause the issue to show up again, earlier. If you start seeing visited links look like you've never visited them, it's time to clear the cache.
-Hank
I thought that was a function of the browser's history, not cache.
The cache is the history. If you look at the temp files for IE, you'll see that each file has an expire date and a source location.
Netscape still uses an odd asorting method that no one understands.
-Hank
I've cleared my cache time after time, the links remain purple. History and Temporary Internet Files are completely independent.
If you use Internet Explorer, go to Internet Settings (from the Tools menu or from Control Panel). Under Temporary Internet Files, click Settings, then there will be four radio buttons. Regardless of which one is selected, make sure it is NOT "Every visit to the page," select "Automatically."
I just cleared out my temporary internet files and I seem to be having a problem when I click the back button to get out of a message and back to the index. I've noticed it for about a week. Am I doing something else wrong
Thought I'd post about some things I've noticed lately on my morning commute:
LIRR (Flatbush Ave.): Track #6 is out of commission as work commences on the expansion/rebuild of Atlantic Complex. I saw a high-rail vehicle on track 6 on Monday and the roof is partially missing over the tracks at that point. Passengers parting from trains on track #5 difficult as half of the platform (the track 6 side) is covered up with construction-shielding.
B'way/East NY: The escalator/passageway has been outfitting with those multi-colored glass panels that can be found at other MTA stations like the Franklin Avenue Shuttle and the LIRR Huntington station. The work is not yet finished, but most of the panels are already in place. Some steel work still needs to be done, but the place is looking really nice lately (skylight is already in place).
BTW, something IS certainly afoot with the old abandoned LIRR Sub-station at ENY (#2). The place has all that new fencing and I saw a work crew (complete w/TA-type vests) going in there last week...I'll keep an eye out on this development if I can.
On the morning commute from Nassau County I'll sometimes jump off the 8:15 LIRR train into Flatbush at ENY station just to get my 'subway fix' by riding the rest of the way downtown on the 'A' train....:-D
BMTman
OH, stop being such a foamer. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yo BMTDude, I rode your beloved L train yesterday. Had to go to East NY FedEx (108th) Street so took it to 105th.
Thought of ya
Lou, did you notice that the station stairwell at E. 105 was rebuilt recently? I forgot to post about that (the westside entrance that had the fire years back).
BMTman
Although the best is the dissent...
-Hank
http://www.silive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?o0163_BC_NJ--Sconj-TrainFatal&&news&newsflash-newyork-si
Sports Authority liable in train death at Monmouth Park
By LORI HINNANT
The Associated Press
7/19/01 3:10 PM
TRENTON, N.J. (AP) -- The widow of a horse trainer who was struck by a train while crossing tracks at Monmouth Park Race Track can sue the state Sports and Exposition Authority, the state Supreme Court ruled Thursday.
According to the ruling, the engineer of the New Jersey Transit train blew the whistle four times before approaching the crossing, looked away for a few seconds, then saw Michael Vincitore in his car on the tracks.
"He and Vincitore made eye contact, and he saw that Vincitore had a puzzled look on his face," Justice James R. Zazzali wrote for the majority opinion, which overturned an appellate decision.
The train then collided with Vincitore's car. The retired Jersey City police officer died of his injuries in the February 1995 accident. Monmouth's racing season runs from Memorial Day to Labor Day, but Vincitore was at the track to retrieve some equipment he had left there.
The rail lines, which run across the race track grounds, were marked not by flashing lights but by sliding metal gates which were monitored by guards during the racing season.
Safety precautions were less clear in the off-season, but the gates were left open when Vincitore was struck and there was a permanent warning sign just off the roadway near the crossing.
According to the ruling, "it reasonably can be said that the condition of the property caused the accident."
"Vincitore drove across the tracks at a crossing designed for that purpose," Zazzali wrote.
The crossing was dangerous and the Sports Authority, which operates the race track, knew that, according to the ruling.
"The authority knew of the risk, knew that having guards operate the gate eliminated that risk, and knew that people who ordinarily traversed the crossing during the racing season likely would have believed that open gates meant it was safe to proceed," Zazzali wrote.
Justice James H. Coleman dissented, saying the view of the crossing was unobstructed, there was at least one permanent warning sign, the accident happened on a clear day and the train sounded warnings.
Vincitore's "failure to yield to a clearly visible train that was sounding audible warnings was so objectively unreasonable that the condition of the property cannot reasonably be said to have caused the injury," Coleman wrote.
Justice Jaynee LaVecchia joined in the dissent.
I suppose the decision junk justice of a sort, but it would've been even junkier if NJTransit had been held liable.
Pray tell, what in the sam hill was the operator of the train supposed to do, ask the driver of the car for permission to move the train? The fool just stared at the train - was he under hypnosis or something? He got hit due to his own idiocy - you hear a train coming, you are at a grade crossing, you move your carcass. Simple thing! How come it is so difficult?
The fire in the CSX Howard Street tunnel is STILL burning...temperatures in the tube reportedly topped 1,000 degrees, and someone said the rails were glowing! Also, a 40-inch water main ruptured at Howard & Lombard Sts, making things even worse.
Howard Street is closed from Pratt St. all the way up to Dolphin St. That includes EVERY intersecting street for at least one block on each side of Howard. MTA buses run on many of those streets; they're being diverted far to the north or south. There doesn't seem to be any "official" detours issued by MTA Supervision. Buses are going any which way they can - you don't know where the hell to catch them!
There's no service on Light Rail between Patapsco Ave. and North Ave. OUCH!! A "bus bridge" links the stations in between, but Lord knows where those buses run in downtown!
MARC commuter service on the Camden Line does not operate north of St. Denis in southwest Baltimore County, and there's no bus between there and downtown, either (unless you count the #31 in nearby Halethorpe). MARC Penn Line and Amtrak services are not affected, despite the fact that Pennsylvania Station is only two blocks from the CSX tunnel's north portal!
Service on the Metro Subway is in relatively good shape, even though the line passes under the CSX tunnel between Charles Center and Lexington Market. At about 3:40 this afternoon a train went out of service on the eastbound track at Charles Center; another eastbound train wrong-railed from west of CC to Johns Hopkins. However, by about 4:15 service in that area was back to normal. Also, MTA has closed State Center station, which is near the CSX north portal, for safety reasons.
Finally, the Baltimore Bums postponed both their games today with the Texas Strangers, at a reported cost of $1.5 million per game.
More info about this massive snafu can be found at WBAL-TV's web site.
You are too critical. With the ongoing problems that affect Howard almost end-to-end the bus system is going to have a lot of problems.
Give the MTA a break. This is an emergency situation.
Dan is right. The situation down here is pure chaos. I'm no fan of the MTA but at least they're doing as well as can be expected.
Eric Dale Smith
Tell that to anybody who had to ride the #23 line today. That line has crummy service under normal circumstances; today it was simply miserable.
My mom got an eastbound bus that went only as far as the Eastern division (Oldham-Ponca Sts). Passengers were told to walk one block east to Ponca, where they could get a bus continuing on. After a half-hour, a bus pulled out of the division, came down Ponca, then turned onto Eastern Ave - not passing the stop where many people were waiting! Mom then walked another two blocks to Tolna, where after another half-hour she was able to get service.
MTA looks like they're trying to form a plan. Crosstown lines, such as the 15, 20, and 23, were split into two parts (east and west). To continue from one side of town to the other you had to get off and walk several blocks for service on the other side of the split.
I worked in the MTA's information center for 5.5 years (there was union corruption in that office, BTW). If I was still there today I'd have surely gone postal by now...!
Randy,
The MTA is doing exactly what it can. With all the problems resulting from the CSX mess, no traffic can cross Howard St anywhere the tunnel is under it.
This is not the MTA's doing, it's the City, the NTSB and the Police and Fire Departments. The MTA can only do what they are told. NO vehicles and cross Howard Street. Period. Paragraph.
Get used to it. Might be several weeks to several months before things are back to normal.
From the Baltimore SUN:
Train fire, toxic cargo shut city
Firefighters stymied as CSX freight burns in Howard St. Tunnel; Civil defense sirens wail; I-395, Inner Harbor closed; water main break cuts power . . .
.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.train19jul19.story?coll=bal%2Dhome%2Dheadlines
.
Click the other links on the right for a graphic and also two stories on the history of the tunnel, built in the 1890s, with 30,000,000 bricks!
I will be taking the last orange 6th ave Q's tomorrow, Friday the 20th. Meet me at 3pm, at the 21st Queensbridge station on the westbound platform-at the west end by the control room (T1 track,northern platform for those of you who aren't familiar with through 63rd street svce).
At around 3:10pm or so we will leave to take the Q it's entire route, if somebody has a videocamera the dash between 34th and W4th should be captured.
For those of you who don't know me, I'll be wearing a CI shop hat.
John
Today on NY they mentioned a while ago, i forgot the year, that the New Yorkers on the F line got relief because the first subway cars with Air Conditioning went into service. From the pictures i believe they were R38's
Yup! The photos show a R-38 on TV. And here's a did you know.
DYK that the R-38's are the first Subway Cars with A/C? Well it is!
(DYK is short for Did you know.)
Here's another did you know:
Did you know that MrX2001 brought up this subject in message 240248?
Or that ANDEE started a substantial thread an hour later with message 240272?
This is obviously of interest to subtalkers.
Oh god this suck ass
Oh god this suck @zs
By this suck ass I mean knowing that someone posted the same post as me and no one responded to mine
The first subway cars with A/C were on the H&M in the late 50s.
This is true but, the first NYC cars were the R38s.
Peace,
ANDEE
The year was 1967.To be exact the date was July 19th!!!!!!
Today was my older daughter's birthday. She loves penguins so we went to the aquarium at Coney Island to see the real things--the ones there are little guys--so-called Jackass Penguins. My daughter wasn't too happy that they're out of their natural habitat, but I pointed out that they're no Jackasses--free rent, swim, sun, live about 50% longer than in the wild (mostly because of lack of predators) and then at 3:30 a girl comes out with a big bucket of little fish and hand feeds them as many as they want.
Well daddy treated both daughters to the gift shop so for my percentage, I took my camera over to Stillwell--the entire entranceway is reduced mostly to steelwork, but there are a few things still worth photographing--especially the sign announcing the various lines (Brighton, West End, etc) from BMT days. Also got a shot of a soon-to-be-history B train.
I think a lot of the people on SubTalk are also general transportation/history fans, so I want to share the big surprise of my trip. For the last 50 years I have been watching the slow retreat of the old wooden light poles that announced PARKWAY all over the NY Metro area. They disappeared gradually on the Belt, being replaced by a variety of metal poles as they were knocked down or rotted out, adn then wholesale on one parkway after another on Long Island.
When they began making patchwork replacements on Jones Beach with wooden poles with ugly metal arms--which presaged complete removal on the other parkways, I thought the final end of the old style poles were at hand. Well, heavy traffic on the Southern State had me going down Meadowbrook so I could take Ocean Parkway. Just past Merrick Road going south are several solid MILES of brand new, old style wooden poles. I couldn't believe it. I hope they do this at least on the Jones Beach sections of all the parkways.
Similar parkway light posts are on Seven Lakes Parkway in Harriman State Park. I'm not sure, but they look original.
...replaced by a variety of metal poles as they were knocked down...
Those metal poles are designed to fall down on impact. It substantially decreases the amount of damage to the car and its occupants.
Paul - Hi --re the NEW wooden parkway poles --I remember the original ones on the Belt and other parkways around NY City from the 60's and 70's in my extensive drives around NY City -ALWAYS had a car since l964 in the City (as now of course). I believe NYC Mayor Guiliani had some imput at the least - on getting the exact replics of the cast iron early l900's era streetlight poles
(goosenecks, bracket arms etc.) like we remember from our younger days by the millions - restored all over the City (Manhattan, at least is where I saw them a few years ago on my drives thru town) - perhaps he or the spirit of the idea (baby boomer- politicians - trying to restore a bit of their -our-
past youth and times) - has influenced the "tax dollars at work" bureaucrats to replicate the wooden poles for historic, aesthetic and bucolic
reasons on the parkways. I guess Kevin Walsh
(Forgotten NY sites) and Jeff Saltzman (Lamppost
nut Site) will also be happy, as am I, to hear of your discovery. Till next time--be well & take care Thanks for your comments on my expanded website also Joe --
Paul,
Take a ride on Loop Parkway where it interchanges with the Meadowbrook. There is a whole bunch of NEW ones that went up recently when the parkway was resurfaced and fixed up. The wood poles are taller and are almost an exact knockoff of the original ones from the 50's. Even the "gumball" fixtures replicate the original, although they are high presure sodium.
Bill "Newkirk"
Aren't those wooden parkway poles named "woodies"? I like them as well, and was sorry to see them go along the Wantagh and Meadowbrook parkways. I'm glad to see that some are coming back.
Yeah, I recently caught a glimpse of the retro-Woodies getting off the Meadowbrook at Merrick Road, the last exit on the mainland. They always were a part of my childhood thanks to being frequently driven along the Meadowbrook, Northern State and Cross Island in the early sixties.
I was one heartbroken six-year-old when they were replaced on the Cross Island in 1966. The Grand Central lost its woodies, which came in about ten different variations, when the section east of the Clearview was widened around 1972. They gradually got knocked off the Belt and all the Long Island parkways from the seventies through the nineties. No metal replacement poles could begin to approach the personality conveyed by the woodies.
Apparently they were put up for sale after being removed from the parkways, because woodies began to appear in many shopping center parking lots around Queens and the Island, often with the light fixture replaced with an elongated, high-intensity diffuser.
They were also on some roadways that were not actual parkways, but ran through parkland. The roads through Pelham Bay Park and leading to City Island all had woodies (in possible anticipation of Pelham Parkway becoming a true limited-access highway, something that never happened), as did those through Jacob Riis Park. Interestingly, Shore Front Parkway, which is lined with high-rises, had woodies well into the seventies. I seem to remember seeing some under the subway ROW deep into Far Rockaway. Bob Moses planned for a parkway to run the length of the Rockaway peninsula that was defeated, so this was another instance of foresight that led nowhere.
A couple of service roads to the Grand Central in Forest Hills and Queens Village also had them. There were a couple of woodies on 66th Avenue in the midst of a postwar garden apartment complex immediately off the service road that stood till about 1981- even though the parkway itself got metal dual-mast armed poles when the road was widened for the second World's Fair.
There still may be some originals on the roadways in Jones Beach state park proper and on the Ocean Parkway out to Captree. There still may be some in state parks not located on Long Island. I seem to recall seeing a couple in the parking lot at Bear Mountain in the early nineties. Back in 1978 I bikerode from my college to Hamlin Beach State Park, located on Lake Ontario fifteen miles west of Rochester. There was at least one woodie there, immediately noticed by a friend from Valley Stream and myself. The other two people, upstate natives, couldn't see what the big deal was.
The strangest place I ever saw woodies was the extreme southern quarter mile of the Palisades Parkway in Fort Lee, NEW JERSEY. They appeared as soon as one turned off the GWB and disappeared after the merge from 9W.
Getting back to transit angle, someone at my office who is rather subway illiterate was planning to take the train from the upper West Side to Coney Island on Sunday. I talked them out of it.
The strangest place I ever saw woodies was the extreme southern quarter mile of the Palisades Parkway in Fort Lee, NEW JERSEY. They appeared as soon as one turned off the GWB and disappeared after the merge from 9W.
What's so strange about that? The PIP was a Moses parkway even though part of it is in New Jersey.
Getting back to transit angle, someone at my office who is rather subway illiterate was planning to take the train from the upper West Side to Coney Island on Sunday. I talked them out of it.
Actually, beginning Sunday, it'll be easier to get to Coney Island from the 1/2/3/9 on the Upper West Side -- especially since this weekend the 1 is running express from 72 to 42.
The original wood poles had sodium vapor lamps and their yellow/orange glow gave a lot of light and little glare. It was said that the bulbs were replaced with other types in order to save money. You could tell a parkway from some distance due to those "orange" lights.
per flyer in stations the fares will go up at 12:01am on 7/29/2001
Lindenwold,Ashland, Woodcrest to Philly............$2.45
Hadonfield, Westmont, COllingswood to Philly.......$2.15
Ferry Ave in Camden to Philly......................$1.85
Any NJ Station to Any NJ STtation..................$1.30
Broadway, Camden City Hall to Philly...............$1.15
Any Philly Station to any Philly Station...........$1.15
Reduced fare-ten rides $5.75
SEPTA-PATCO Transfer (Round Trip)$2.10
Existing tickets will remain valid
They also announced a capital program to renopvate the NJ Stations abd Philly Station Mezzanines with new lights, floor andf wall tiles and art.Old escalators will be repaired or replaced.
Wood ties will be replaced with concrete andf the embankments will be repaired and stabilized. The total cost of these and other projects over the next 3 years is over 100 million.
Any additional ADA stations in these plans?
Damn, three years ago the highest fare was like $1.60
Damn, three years ago the highest fare was like $1.60
Twenty years ago, too.
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE F-ING KIDDING ME! THAT IS HIGHWAY ROBBERY! THEY JUST RAISED FARES TWICE AND SAID THAT THAT WAS IT! F-ING LIARS.
Do I hear swearing?
CRAP, OOPS, CRAP
Hi there, I'm back. My house was broken into and my computer got ripped-off. Anyhoo, PATCO hasn't raised their fares in 20 years before 1998 and now they have raised it 3 times. Are they trying to comete with SEPTA for the highest fare in the region (if not the nation)? If PATCO would have gradually raised the fare in the 22-year period then it would be understandable, but 3 hikes in 3 years, that's outrageous. I've used to think that PATCO was one of the better-runned transit systems (if you can call one line a system), now they are ran like SEPTA, the clowns are running the circus.
I've used to think that PATCO was one of the better-run transit systems (if you can call one line a system), now they are run like SEPTA, the clowns are running the circus.
Interesting observation/opinion. PATCO's management was recently ousted and replaced by DRPA management.
Wow! Everything makes sence now. So the clowns ARE running the circus, just like Budd Train said. I wonder why they are trying to make transit less attractive than the bridges they also run. Theybe they are gunning for an eventual phase out of PATCO. Maybe they are getting kickbacks from the parking lot owners in Philly. Next thing you know they'll install EZ pass on PATCO (funded by yet another fare hike of course}.
They are funding a Capital Plan to replace rolling stock and fix up stations (and maybe one day look into a new branch). That takes $$$.
PATH's new Capital Plan also required a fare hike.
Of note: PATCO carries 11 million passengers a year at last count. If I recall correctly, that's down slightly. PATH carries 76 million passengers a year, up significantly from 64 million two or three years ago. Of course they are not directly comparable, PATH being better integrated, and feeding into, other transit systems with high ridership, but the numbers are interesting.
That sounds about right. PATH goes through very densely populated areas that are transit dependant, while PATCO goes through transit independant neighborhoods, and serves a much smaller city.
As for stations and rolling stock, they seem in pretty good shape to me. But a new branch, and possibly a new means of fare collection, would be wonderful.
from the MTA web site:
July: Renovate Jackson, Prospect, Simpson, Freeman, 174, East Tremont on the 2 line.
Rehab Brighton el from SHeepshead Bay to West 12.
August: ADA for Marcy
September: Renovate Marcy, ADA for 179
October: Demolish 8 closed towers, ADA West 4
December: ADA Euclid,20 stations on Brooklyn IRT(Eastern Parkway and Nostrand Line), 4th ave BMT,, Brighton, Nassau Loop- lighting upgrade.
Renov. Times Square Phase 2 (BMT and Flushing) and ,74/Roosevelt.
ADA means elevators will be added. Times Square and 74/Roosevelt projects include elevators.
disclaimer-- just because they have plans to advertise a project does not guarantee it will be bid and if bid no guarantee a contract will be awarded.
I am so pleased about the 2 and 5 renovations indeed. Make them look nice and the surrounding neighborhood will protect it. Make the Bronx IRT shine better then the flushing line. FINALLY! Once they do the 4 and 1,9 lines everything will be complete. The Bronx IRT will be the jewel again. The 7 line will not be the only beauty in the system.
Yes, but will the track workers be able to work with trains running. To rehab those stations will take 75-100 years at the current speed of the contractors, so does that mean shuttle buses all that time? I'm just fooling around. I think it's great. They'll most likely run express service bypassing the stations. What happened to the 1900-1904 workers that built from City Hall to 145th in four years?
You know, I emailed an employee of the RPA on exactly that question. Apparently, back in those days Col. W.B. Parsons had very liitle regard for the risk of life and limb for the workers on the IRT. That's why there were so many bad accidents during the construction. And that's why there are so many construction restrictions in place, which prolong projects.
A little tenuous, but it's all good in the end.
There are 5 cent tickets currently for sale on eBay. They look like they were issued by the Board of Transportation. I know the IRT Co issued tickets when they first opened (have one in my collection), but was never aware of any similar system for the IND. I thought they just used coins. Does anyone know when / if these were used and why?
The link is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1168649220
Could these be the transfer tickets issued in conjunction with
the bus-to-subway transfers when the fare was raised?
According to NewsRadio 880, in a last minute compromise, the MTA agreed to the Grand Street Chinese community's demands to run M service to Brooklyn for most of the day, from 5 a.m. to 10 p.m. But it doesn't say how far into Brooklyn they'll go.
http://wcbs880.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_227435593_html
This is certainly great news!!
I guess they listened to all us SubTalkers, LOL!
(if only)
NICE.......
Don't laugh. It could have happened that way.
One of the WCBS 880 people is a SubTalker - Todd Glickman.
I was in fact, half-kidding. I'm sure if they were asked, TA management would dney even knowing this page exists. But I'm also sure they check it anyway.
I hope so...the best suggestions for *everything* subway-related has come out of here, from better cartography for the subway map, to various efficient service plans, etc..
Of course, some things here are just off-the-wall, but most of very impressive :)
The postings on this website do tend to be, on the whole, much more reasoned and fact-based (even when we heatedly disagree with one another and say Poppycock! and other exclamations) than on other sites. Do you guys see what goes on in discussion boards for the NY Times or Daily News? The naivete, ignorance, bigotry and just plain silliness and immaturity are incredible. I'm not saying everyone who posts there is like that, of course. I just see more brains on this site.
YEAH! Subtalk Forever!
I can't take credit for that one. But I can for getting Dave Sr. and Dave Jr. (father & son together!) their excellent publicity.
BTW, just back from a day in NYC, where by the luck of the draw, all I got were R-142s on the 2, and R-32s on the N. I rode my "last" Q dash and Manny-B north run for a while, and I'll be back next week for a Q Broadway and south side spin. I also received (thanks to a fellow SubTalker on the F) a copy of the July map, with the "V" mistake at Roosevelt Avenue. An administrative contact at the TA acknowledged that they'll have to reprint rapidly to make the M changes just announced.
While riding the R-142s, I began wondering how/if/when the TA will modify the in-car strip map transfer icons to reflect the new Q/W transfers.
There is a memo in the terminals stating that the R142 wont be programmed to say the transfers until late fall. Until then, the C/R's have to make manual annoucements when they get to a transfer point involving the Q and W lines.
It could be the old M service plan (pre-1995) with M trains operating to Bay Pkwy rush hours and 9th Avenue during non-rush hours. Kook at it this way, there'll be R143s operating in southern Brooklyn during more hours of the day.
I DID notice that they removed the old crew headquarters at 9th Avenue, and the area is roped off. They may put another one there.
I think it is turning at Kings Hwy on the Sea Beach.
No. 9th Avenue.
R143's are for the L line first, any leftovers, for the M.
And those leftover R143s will be in southern Brooklyn during more hours of the day, now that the M will be operating to 9th Avenue during middays.
That should read "Look at it this way, there'll be R143s operating in southern Brooklyn during more hours of the day."
I think they're only going to use the R-143 on the "M" when they are running the M-Shuttle cos it's OPTO. The full route would not be OPTO.
And I think they'll turn at Bay Pkwy in rush hours, 9 Avenue mid-day.
NEXT ON THE AGENDA: Peak hour, peak direction "W" express service from Bay Parkway to 36 Street! Bring on the Slants for this one, leave the hippos in the yard!
wayne
But Wayne, what about the slants on the Q, especially if they end up on the express?
Ah, yes, those... well with the R143's coming, they'll go on the "L" and so displace the 48 Slants that live over there.
wayne
I thought we already discussed this. The MTA will not keep their trains sitting around during the day just to run at night. The trains that begin and end their runs in Coney Island Yard will be all R-42. Those that are stored at Fresh Pond will be both. All of the R-42s will be stored when the train terminates at Myrtle. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
The 143s for the OPTO shuttle would be used during the day on the L. Nights, they would be freed up.
Though, if there are extra, they probably would make about as many appearances on the M as R-62as on the 5.
There are more R-143s than required for the L. They're not going to be stored during rush hours.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH this is a welcome change - cutting "M" service off at 8:45AM northbound from Pacific - is a major pain in the neck. Now at least one of the key links between two lines can be put to better use. NEXT ON THE AGENDA: Open weekend service to Broad Street so the transfer at Fulton can be utilized. I will volunteer to man the tower if they provide me with free coffee.
wayne
There goes the nice job I picked on the M this pick.All this because of a bunch of lazy whiners who want everything handed to them on a silver platter.I guarantee usage of the Bowery station will remain the same.
If anyone's being a lazy whiner, it's you. The service is here for the riders, not the employees.
Watch it. He is perfectly justified in his complaint. When he picked the M, it was a nice, short line during middays. Thus he expected such. Suddenly, they double the time it takes to make a round trip, and he's stuck with a line twice as long as he asked for, local all the way. Long local lines are for newbies with no seniority.
>>Watch it. He is perfectly justified in his complaint.<<
No he isn't. I understand that he wanted a particular job, and granted, that job he picked is gone now, but this is no reason for him to whine about having to take his train on a longer run then. And then, he calls the riders the whiners. This is the real world. In the real world, things happen.
>>Long local lines are for newbies with no seniority.<<
Perhaps from a railfan perspective. I believe that zman said the "C" is a high seniority line. Often those 'long local' lines get less people, and that is what any T/O wants.
Long lines less runs... Fewer runs make people happy I believe.
Plus walking that 600 feet adds up too >G<.
Awwwwww, poor baby. The trials and tribulations of train operators are horrible, eh?
All sarcasm aside, perhaps a new pick is in order.
Maybe that's the union rule. But I, personally, have more respect for a work ethic which espouses solid work with pride no matter what's thrown at the worker.
Now, I realize MTA may not always encourage or reward an attitude like that.
Does this assignment mean he gets home late a lot, or does more overtime than expected?
No,I don't think so.Those of us in the suburbs laugh at the residents of the boroughs in regards to their constsant crying of always being shortchanged on something.I guess that's what that cycle of dependency known as liberalism will do to some people. As a result of this service change,people who work the M are getting screwed!People pick a job based on the hours and amount of work it does(SENIORITY).If you don't like the answer, too bad! People will be stuck finishing later or coming in earlier than usual just to pick up a few extra people at the Bowery.Those people will go to Canal St for the quicker Q or W into Bklyn.
>>Those of us in the suburbs laugh at the residents of the boroughs in regards to their constsant crying of always being shortchanged on something.<<
Those of us in the city laugh at their 'model' neighborhoods, which are well, pretty boring and isolated.
>>People pick a job based on the hours and amount of work it does(SENIORITY).<<
Yes, I know the whole TA process. (Henry, look at what he just said. T/O's don't care about whether a run is express)
>>If you don't like the answer, too bad! People will be stuck finishing later or coming in earlier than usual just to pick up a few extra people at the Bowery.Those people will go to Canal St for the quicker Q or W into Bklyn.<<
I suppose I understand that. Still, that's no reason to begin whining with them. And don't fret. If the Bowery doesn't get more ridership, you can expect the TA to whip that M back into place!
...amount of work it does(SENIORITY)...
...(Henry, look at what he just said. T/O's don't care about whether a run is express)...
You're probably right, stopping every 2 minutes is much less work than running in full parallel for 7.
I would rather have Huntington and Port Jeff villages anyday as opposed to that village called Greenwich.One of my contacts in Port Jeff village told me recently kids from the boroughs were causing trouble in the area.Can't they just go the South Street Seaport and do their thing there?
"I would rather have Huntington and Port Jeff villages anyday as opposed to that village called Greenwich.One of my contacts in Port Jeff village told me recently kids from the boroughs were causing trouble in the area.Can't they just go the South Street Seaport and do their thing there? "
As one of those 'kids from the boroughs' I'm qualified to say that there's no way you can make comments like that about 2 million people who are totally beyond the genralization of a small-town suburbanite.
Personally, I don't see why anyone from the City would travel all the way to Port Jefferson for any reason, and moreso from my own experience, the friends and acquaintances my own age who I've met from the City are alot more "well grounded" and balanced people than the ones from the Suburbs....they do a lot less drugs, too.
-West End Scott
A lot of kids from the suburbs come to the city and wreak havoc too - and then complain when they get locked up in a city jail!
A small number of people from New York are visiting your hovel, and of course since the hardest thing that a person can do is face their problems, they're chosen as scapegoats for your dysfunctional village. It's much easier than dealing with real problems. It's the same kind of thing that was done in Germany from 1933-1945, just with death.
Kids in suburbs are the most dysfunctional people of all. They're more likely to shoot up their school, more likely to use drugs, more likely to engage in destructive mischief of all kinds.
Suburban adults are also more likely to be insane. With kids it's even worse. Unable to drive anywhere, kids are tied down to a household with the inability to go anywhere useful without their parents, they're forced to watch insane amounts of television (what else is their to do? There is no park/playground within walking distance). Suburbs are the most horrible tool of youth oppression. While we're at it, they're the most horrible tool for oppression of the poor and the infirm. In the case of the first one, suburban zoning prevents people of limited financial means from living in the suburbs, the same place where the jobs for unskilled workers are mainly found. You might like not living next door to somebody who cleans houses for a living, considering that this person is inferior to you.
Suburbia is counter to the trends of a functional civilization.
oooh. well put. I agree, but never could express the same idea as concisely. I'll be quoting you in the future..
...AND so will I
Kids in suburbs are the most dysfunctional people of all. They're more likely to shoot up their school, more likely to use drugs, more likely to engage in destructive mischief of all kinds.
Sorry, most dysfunctional KIDS of all. Suburban adults are much more crazy than their kids, forget media propoganda.
Thank you for your wonderful post.
I always must remember to be grateful that I live in the city where the transit is excellent, and I do not live in the suburbs, where I cannot even walk to a store to buy food. But maybe the reason that suburban schools are better than city schools is because there is nothing to do in the suburbs, so kids spend their free time doing homework.
I've already mentioned how the cities are forced to take in all of the tired, the poor and huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
Suburbs however can keep those people out thanks to their high property taxes, which in turn spend more money to steal all of the good teachers from the city.
But all suburban schools are not great. You have your wonderful city schools, and then there are the horrible suburban school districts (cough:::roosevelt:::cough).
Most of the problems in the public school are due to lack of parental involvement.I know someone who recently starting teaching at a public school in Williamsburg.She told me the kids are out of control.She's had stuff thrown at her.She gets no support from the administration of the school.She is looking to get a job in the suburbs as soon as possible.The public school system in the boroughs is shot.Parents just don't care.Just look at that vote on the Edison schools recently.I think about 20% of the parents voted.I would hardly characterize a person choosing to teach in the suburbs as being stolen from the city.If the overall atmosphere is better(no metal detectors)where would you go?
I would feel safer with metal detectors, considering all of the recent school violence has been in the suburbs.
Parental involvement is an important factor, and it's often inversely proportional to wealth. The fact that urban schools are poorer is a function of restrictive suburbs that prevent the poor from settling there. Zoning should be abolished.
The parental involvement argument can easily be verified if one chooses to abandon all blanket statements about New York schools. Every one of them receives the same amount of funding, but those in better neighborhoods or with admission requirements perform better.
So higher income and property tax collections have nothing to do with it, eh, Isaac?
That could be partly responsible for the large number of idiots (aggressive sorts) on the roads, and the number of substance-abusers of all stripes out here on LI.
wayne
I agree with many of your sentiments...
As long as the P.M. switchman doesn't get any extra work...
I may be booking off quite frequently thereby requiring the switchman to pick up the slack. I should've picked switching after all. I'll wait for the bid sheets to come out.I know the job I'm looking for.
We've got plenty of qualified road people to pick up the slack...and remember, the new guys aren't even ALLOWED in Fresh Pond.
Excuse me, but your are putting down liberalism and liberals. Yet you say a union may with high seniority gets screwed. If the right wing nutnicks got there way, there would be no unions. After all the Republicans always rail against how the unions protect incompetent workers (or is it workers who don't kiss up to management) and how unions ruin the economy. It is liberal/Democrats who have through the industrial history of the US supported unions and passed legislation allowing for there formation and operation. So be careful who you put down. If the capitalists had there way, we would all work for what wage they could push us down to, after all the less paid out in wages, the more profits for the capitalist expoitors. Marx explained that perfectly.
[If the capitalists had there way, we would all work for what wage they could push us down to, after all the less paid out in wages, the more profits for the capitalist expoitors. Marx explained that perfectly. ]
... and incorrectly.
Arti
Incorrectly????? Have you EVER seen an employer give a raise without having to be pushed into it by a union or the threat of losing workers? Marx was 100% correct in his theory of excess value. A main hires a worker to make a product, he pays the worker $1 to make the prodeuct, he then sells it for whatever he can. The worker added the value to make the item worth what is sells for. The capitalist does nothing and makes the big bucks. Look around at the profits of major corporations, do you thing the workers are getting a fraction of the profits???????????????
[The capitalist does nothing and makes the big bucks.]
Capitalist takes the risk.
[Look around at the profits of major corporations, do you thing the workers are getting a fraction of the profits??????????????? ]
So you're saying that most corporations are operating with few thousand % profitability?
BTW I don't think that anyone but few commmunists take marxist theories seriously.
Arti
"Look around at the profits of major corporations, do you thing the workers are getting a fraction of the profits???"
Well, yes.
Look at Citigroup. For the year 2000, Citigroup reported profits of $13.5 Billion. Citigroup has 230,000 employees -- depending what you assume for their average salary and bonus, you get various results for their total employee compensation.
If you assume $30,000 per employee (probably low) and then add 25% for benefits, Citigroup employees received 8.625B. That's a pretty good fraction.
If you assume $47,000 per employee, then you're at the level of profit being equal to employee compensation.
Feel free to research some other companies and report back on the results.
CG
"Mike", who works the M line, and seems somewhat less enthusiastic about liberals as he did years ago. Hmmmmm. I think I know who you are.
And you're right to be angry about this whole last minute M line mess.
But it was just a matter of time before the Chinese community sued the city over this whole rerouting issue, so the city had to move now to prevent a lawsuit.
Oh, man, if I were given the alternative of long "M" versus short "M" I would certainly go for the LONG - especially on THAT serpentine route with all those delicious crunchnoisy curves. Sure it's a local, but hey a good place to practice braking and hitting your station signals.
wayne
You do like squeals and squeaks around curves, don't you?:-)
You're right Mike! The reason the changes were made, is strongly political.
Chinatown protested under the banner "Chinese community", which struck fear into the TA, politicians, and the media. As a result, some kind of PR move had to be made.
When people from a neighborhood like Forest Hills voice their complaints, it's done under the banner "Forest Hills community", as opposed to "White community", so no one listens to their concerns.
It's all about politics, and which groups have "victim status", and which ones don't.
p.s.- If this is the Mike I think it is, you should know that Milan Topolav is on the list for T/O. E-mail me when you can.
The M will return to 9th Ave. There was a memo in the office that was printed up and handed out before yesterday. TA is CYA. :)
Midday Ms will turn at 9th Avenue....and the evening service until 10PM? Does that turn at 9th Avenue or at Bay Parkway?
So the Grand St. shuttle will be extended "in November" - that is, when the V train replaces the Queensbridge shuttle on 6th Ave.? From this, it can be concluded that the operation of the Queensbridge shuttle interferes with extending the Grand St. shuttle to W. 4th St. In other words, the Queensbridge shuttle will terminate on one express track at Broadway-Lafayette - I expect on the downtown side - and the Grand St. shuttle will terminate on the other. The Queensbridge shuttle will not go to 2nd Ave. to relay, but when the V train starts, it will run in service to 2nd Ave., and both express tracks will then be clear for the extended Grand St. shuttle to use.
Just one question: if the V train can run to 2nd Ave. concurrently with thru F train service, why can't the Queensbridge shuttle do the same thing?
Switch replacement at 2nd ave.
What's happening at Coney Island? They've litterally torn the roof off the place!
New terminal, finally.
OK, I apologize for being off-topic but I know that this message board is an invaluable resource visited by TA employees so I write..I am new to the TA & we've just received new raises..I understand that because I started after the cut date that I am not eligible for compensation..problem is, there is another person in my office that started after me that I believe is getting the raise..so, what do I do? Should I make an attempt at arguing for my raise because they gave one out to a more junior employee than me? (even though it could adversely affect me during probation) or do I just lay down and accept that this has happened?..any advice from TA employees would be helpful...thanks
Contact your HR department, they have the rules for who gets the raise and the cut off dates. I have two page print out from the PMS system (yup the city calls it PMS Payroll Managment System, look at your check) for when/who gets the DC37 raises.
Because of my title/union change I miss it by one month (29 days). Nothing I can do about it.
I am not a TA employee, so I defer to Lou's post regarding the mechanics of what you should do.
However, I offer you this perspective: You're new, and this is one raise. Distinguish yourself at the TA with hard, intelligent work, and take advantage of training offered etc., and as your career progresses you will earn enough raises and promotions so that this one missed raise (if indeed you do miss it) will mean nothing when you look back at it 5 years from now.
Are you in the union? DC37 people just got a raise of 5.78% retroactive for a year to April 2001. They also get a 4% raise retroactive to April, 2001. The raise will be in the next check and the retroactive money will be paid W/O 8/2/01. If you are not in DC37, that might explain why you are not getting the raise.
Exactly..I am non represented but I believe this individual (that got the raise) is as well...also I do understand that the raises are independent of your performance (completely unliike my former private sector job)..kinda takes away that incentive to excel and prmotes mediocrity....I do agree with Ron's sentiment though..I do love my job and am happy to be there.it's just BS like this disenchants me a bit..Thanks everyone.
Looking at the map, I noticed several things:
1. There is not one bold B anywhere. That means no weekend service.
2. The guide reads "Rush hours, middays, and evenings". If it were weekends, they'd say "All times xcept nights".
To combat all complaints at the loss of B service on weekends, I'd like to remind you all of one thing:
Before November 2000, the C was the only weekend CPW local. The B was instead going to Queensbridge or 57/6th. The only reason it was sent to 145 was because Brooklyn riders needed service into Manhattan, and thanx to 63rd st work / reroutes the closest possible terminal was 145th, so they made it official. Now, that is irrelevent, since BK riders are being underserved anyway due to anticipated Bridge / Tunnel GOs. Keeping the Manhattan B on weekends ain't going to help that.
BMT Road Dogg pointed this out when the picks came out.
Wasn't the C running only four cars on weekends the last time the bridge shut down?
Anyway, the amt. of cars that run on the C should be another issue altogether.
>>Wasn't the C running only four cars on weekends the last time the bridge shut down?<<
Certainly not in 1995.
>>Anyway, the amt. of cars that run on the C should be another issue altogether.<<
8 cars serves the C well enough. If the trains came at 7.5 minute headways, that would fix things.
Granted, Rush hour C's get crowded, but no more than an A train with 2 extra cars.
>>Wasn't the C running only four cars on weekends the last time the bridge shut down?<<
>>>Certainly not in 1995.
Actually, the C was 4 cars on the weekends back then. That was when they ran between 145 and WTC. Funny, the first car going downtown would be packed and the other 3 cars would still have plenty of seats. The C even ran 4 cars on Mon-Fri from 10 am to 2 pm.
Don't ask me why.
I remeber midday C trains running 4 cars, but not in '95. By that time, they were running 8 car trains middays.
I never rode a weekend C, but I rode the weekend A, and I don't recall 4 car C trains there either, but i never payed attention.
Why doesn't the C have 10 cars just like the A & E???? Even at one time, I remember the A & D with 4 cars!!!
The C doesn't get as many riders as the A and E trains. The E is an express on the busy queens Blvd, so it gets tons of service. The A is express, and it also runs further, thus more people take it. It's rare that I Get a C more crowded than an A from Brooklyn. I don't know about the CPW service, but on Fulton, 8 car C trains are adequate. I wouldn't mind it if the C were 10 cars, but personally, I'd like to see the train arrive every 7-8 minutes instead of every 9-10.
4-car trains of 75-footers would sound right. I used to see 8-car A trains of R-10s in the late 60s on Saturdays.
Becasue the TA does not have enough cars! And the car crunch will get even tighter when the V starts in November.
Because the C doesn't need 600' trains serving it. We've talked about this at length in the past.
Sometime after summer 1997, before the end of weekend C to WTC, I rode a 4 car C train. I had never seen a 4 car R-32 train before, it was strange. I don't think I ever saw one again.
Oh, I remember seeing 4-car AA trains of R-32s in 1967-68.
I can vaguely recall 4 and 6 car r-32 "N" off-peak trains during the "Broadway Express days". During the late '70's and early 80's esp, there were 8-car r-10 or r-40 "A" trains, 4 car J/M/LL, 4 car r-44-46 D, E, F, N trains, and the majority of "AA" trains were 4-car R-38 or 42's. The IRT lines tended to be shortened to 5 or 7 cars. Tony
for about a year prior to the midday and weekend full closure of the Manhattan Bridge in April 1995, the midday C ran 4 car trains and the midday B ran 6 car trains of slants.
Having two services (B/C) running through CPW on the weekends is a waste of transportation resources. So I agree with the idea of eliminating the B service on the weekends. Furthermore, since this service will have a new terminus at 34th Street, it would be a better idea to just have rush hour service on the B line. Then former passengers on the B line could be encourage to use the 1/9 lines.
N Bwy Line
I too want just rush hour B service. The C can easily handle CPW rush hour crowds.
What do you believe will happen in 2004 when the North side resumes? B back to 145 weekdays? Surely the passenger loads are there for it.
Weekdays, of course. Weekends, probable. Why? Because ridership will only increase by then.
Hi
Did anybody catch the roll signs on the R68A...gone are the big bold Arial signs that said Coney Island, Bedford, Ditmars, Astoria...
what do they have now...you'll recognize them...they've installed the regular, but new R68 signs that have the neigborhood and the street on top of each other...you will also notice that the FRONT sign is the regular R68 sign...look at the B train, gone are the regular orange sgn...replaced now the the red-orange R68 B sign, sometimes the big kindergartenlike sign on the side roll....check it out, you'll see what I'm taking about...so what does this mean?? the R68A never had a W sign???....woudl've been easier to let the R32's or the regular 68's take the W and leave the 68A's to the N
They also put the boro on top of some of the new signs. Now THAT'S just dumb! The signs for Bedford Park read "Bronx" on top and "Bedford Park Blvd" on bottom. So people would read a sign like that as "Bronx, Bedford Park Blvd." It makes no sense! It's like saying you're headed to "France, Paris" instead of Paris, France. What the heck was the MTA smoking when it designed those new signs? The sign for 205th Street is "Norwood, Bronx, 205th Street." They should have just left "205th Street" off the new signs and just called it "Norwood, Bronx."
I sad this about a week ago.
Robert
Sorry, must have missed your post.
The MTA thinks the name in Chinese way.:P You can find this in Hong Kong too, especailly in the name of bus terminus , for instance, Sham Shui Po (Yam Chau Street).
For the name I've mentioned in the previous post, it should be Yen Chau St. The name means Yen Chau St., Sham Shui Po actually.
That's not exactly a precedent setter. The destination signs on the R-1/9s listed the branch name first, then the station. Thus you had "Wash. Hts 207th St"; "Concourse 205th St"; "Jamaica 179th St." and so on.
Meanwhile, they leave "Stillwell Av" off of Coney island, when the former is the actual name used for the station/terminal. It would have looked better with the two-lines, like most of the north terminals
That sucks! I loved the old R68A signs!!! Now the reading are all different sizes. And those overgrown letters look horrible. Now in the front too?
Re: New roll **sings** on the R68A / rather old signs...
Didn't know the new signs sing, what key?
Here.
Also: Be sure to download the (D)(Q) schedule PDF before they remove it forever!!
Get the regular (B) schedule before it's gone forever too! It even includes the Queensbridge shuttle designated as a (B) train and running to 34th Street over the (N)/(R) line. Intersting. Get it while you still can!
Likewise the *.PDF map.
Which PDF map where? I haven’t seen one. I know that I can convert the .GIF into a PDF, but if there’s a nice high-resolution map waiting to be downloaded (or one you could e-mail to me) I would be very grateful.
John
BTW: Have you looked at the source for the page with the GIF map on it? Talk about complicated imagemap coordinates!
Sorry, my mistake. They are *.gif files. The site used to have *.pdf files for the map.
Today while visiting a T/O friend of mine he told me about the changes,M trains rush hours turn at Bay Parkway on the W, Non Rush they turn at Kings HIghway On the N , This is to help with the Very Chinese populated 8thave,20th ave and Bayparkway stations on the N,Plus there is no crew room or bathrooms at 9th ave station anymore.
so the R gets some help on the 4th Ave lcl on the midday.
"so the R gets some help on the 4th Ave lcl on the midday."
I thought my train (the N) runs local with the R during the midday?
N Bwy
>>I thought my train (the N) runs local with the R during the midday?<<
No. N trains run as 4th av express Rush hours and middays. Sometimes though, the trains are re-routed via local.
No, the N runs express on 4th Ave all day long during the week.
""Today while visiting a T/O friend of mine he told me about the changes,M trains rush hours turn at Bay Parkway on the W, Non Rush they turn at Kings HIghway On the N , This is to help with the Very Chinese populated 8thave,20th ave and Bayparkway stations on the N,Plus there is no crew room or bathrooms at 9th ave station anymore.""
Uh oh...is this the beginning of ethnic politics mutilating the subway services? Instead of having a system that tries to get everyone around quickly, will it now be tied to what you look like or what language you speak??
New train services in such a scenario -
J train now runs down the West End, around Coney and up the Brighton Line to the Upper West Side to connect the Jewish neighborhoods of Borough Park, Midwood, Lower East Side and U.W.S.....
AA train runs across northern Brooklyn and changes to an express in Manhattan uptown until 125th Street, to connect the African American neighborhoods of Bed-Stuy, Bushwick, and Harlem....
W train runs from Broad Channel into Manhattan and then up Lexington to connect the very European American areas of Broad Channel and the Upper East Side...
E train runs local along 4th Ave in Brooklyn and then up express up Lexington until 125, and then loops around the South Bronx, connecting the Latino/a areas of Sunset Park, Spanish Harlem, and the S.B....
wacky stuff..
I called RTO. There is nothing about turning midday Marys at Kings Highway.
Well, i'd like to know where the midday M's will be terminated at. Bay Pkwy?
9th Avenue, as it was done in the past.
Your friend is either mis-informed, or a fibber.
There are crew headquarters at 9th Avenue, complete with a modern building and showers, etc. The crew quarters are viewable from a passing southbound B/M/W train.
This is not happening. The M will turn at 9th Ave. when not using Bay Parkway. For once, community selfishness might actually make things better.
"Riders Get Ready For Retraining
Big changes on B, D, Q lines start Sunday"
Daily News story
They should stop making it seem like a bad thing so much. It may be benificial to other riders.
The tabloid papers make a living out of 120-point crisis headlines. Unless there's some big break in the Chandra case to tout, Tuesday's Daily News and New York Post will make the confusion about subway changes on Monday sound like the biggest mess since the Army and Navy failed to move their planes and boats at Pearl Harbor...
I think we're all sick of hearing about the Chandra case. That's tabloid garbage that doesn't belong in mainstream news IMHO.
Here's an idea I've been tossing around. What if gasoline taxes were based on population density? In my fantasy nation, this would encourage people to use transit where its most available and traffic problems are the worst, without penalizing people who live in small towns and rural areas who have not options but driving.
Is this a good idea? Is this a terrible idea? How could it be made better? What are its flaws? Just wondering what others think.
Mark
It might work, assuming everybody who lives in the city works in the city. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who live in the city and work on Long Island or in Jersey and therefore must use their cars, so a gasoline tax would unfairly penalize them.
Just a thought. I know that LIRR and NJTransit serve these areas, but it's not very convenient for places not adjacent to a train station.
Dan
The flaw is that the people who clog up the roads at the most inopportune times, at least in the NYC region, are those living outside the densest areas. They'd just fill up in their suburbs (just as commuters from New Jersey fill up there and don't pay their fair share towards New York roads). And NYC residents, who probably don't drive to work but may have cars for other purposes, are more likely to use their cars off-peak, but they'll be stuck paying the higher prices.
A better idea, IMO, is to replace the gas tax entirely with ubiquitous electronic tolling.
Seems like the House Majority whip may have screwed Houston's bid for the 2012 Games by being so intrangent against any rail mass transit systems for the city. Can't help but get a smile over this one. :-)
***
By MARK BABINECK
Associated Press Writer
HOUSTON (AP) - Houston must project itself as a truly international city - which likely would include a rail transit system - to have a shot at the 2012 Summer Games, the chairman of the U.S. Olympic Committee site evaluation team said Thursday.
"Europeans are used to railroads. Europeans, among others, are going to be voting (for the host city), and this is something you need to address," Charles Moore said after his task force concluded a three-day tour.
The Metropolitan Transit Authority is building a 7 1/2-mile light rail starter line from downtown to the Astrodome complex, home of two stadiums at the heart of the city's Olympic dream. Moore insinuated the nation's fourth-largest city needs to lay more track.
"You need to address how you're going to accommodate roughly a million and a quarter additional people in the city," Moore said.
Local bickering over rail has reached Washington, where Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison supports federal funding while suburban Houston U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay, a fellow Republican, wants a public referendum first.
Moore repeatedly cautioned he is precluded from saying much about Houston or any of the seven other communities vying to be the U.S. candidate city in 2012. Officials said the U.S. Olympic Committee will announce finalists in December.
Moore appeared satisfied that Houston's wealth of climate-controlled facilities, including three indoor stadiums and two large arenas, should negate its famous heat during the Olympic events envisioned in late July and early August.
"We've had games in hot places before. Barcelona was really hot, Atlanta was really hot and, likely, Houston will be really hot," Moore said.
Moore also reported that an offhand attempt by a Dallas official to undermine Houston backfired when his warning of ravenous mosquitos did not pan out. Moore did report meeting some Texas fire ants during a visit to the proposed rowing venue near Texas City.
Moore, who has now visited both Texas candidate cities, declined to compare Houston to even hotter Dallas, which does not have an indoor stadium.
He noted that Atlanta was the first city in recent memory to win an Olympic Games on its initial attempt, making it an uphill climb for Houston and other rookie applicants.
"My sense is that Houston is in it for the long haul and that if it didn't get it in 2012, they'll try in 2016," Moore said, conceding that no U.S. city would be in the running in 2016 if Toronto pursues and wins the 2012 Games.
But Toronto is a two-time loser, Moore said, and there's no guarantee the International Olympic Committee will choose it next, despite a strong but unsuccessful run for the 2008 event, which will be held in Beijing.
"North America has no lock on it in 2012, I assure you," Moore said.
The task force has visited Washington, D.C., Dallas and Houston. They're off to Cincinnati now, followed by New York, Tampa, Fla., San Francisco and Los Angeles.
See, this is what happens when your city doesn't have a good rail system, anything remotely interesting, and RTS buses. We didn't have a chance. Not a chance.
I'm surprised a city like Houston has gone this long w/o a rail system. Us NYers have the largest rail system in the nation, and that still may not be enough to shuttle around nearly two million extra people for two weeks.
With mostly conservatives leading the charge for the 2012 Olympics, things will really get interesting.
Score another one for the rightwing, big oil sucking up exploiters of the working class. Tom Delay is about as far right as one can get this side of a facisist. It never ceases to amaze me how these southern extremist of the right think funding mass transit is a waist of taxpayers money - why shouldn't it pay for itself? they say. Yet they NEVER even begin to add up the money spent on the gov't to subsidise highway contruction and maintenance. I guess because a higher proportion of transit users are not RICH.
Did everyone know that for years the NYC fire department has failed to earn back its operating costs in revenues! I say the thing should pay for itself or be discontinued!
:)
Mark
how "crass" of you!
No; how Republican of him.............
I'm surprized Rudy never proposed the idea, as the fireman approaches a victim in a burning building, he could demand a "rescue fee", threre will be no free rides for these malingerers. We need to break the cycle of dependancy.
Be sure to charge extra for oxygen and bandages.
aren't those synonyms? To me fire, HEALTH, TRANSIT,sanitation, and police services are the reason we make the compact to tax ourselves and provide "for the general welfare". The oxygen wasters with no moral compass who whine about '[profits' and 'freeloaders' usually turn out on serious investigation to be total hypocrites. Most of the Bush 'victory' states in the recent fraudulent (S)election are in fact ney vampires of Federal expenditures compared to the IRS collections within their borders. If DeLay, Ken Lay, and the rest of their cohorts, had to pay their own way in Texas, they would all be poor.
Transit content: Make the price of gasoline reflect the cost of US military operations in the Gulf, Colombia, Indonesia etc where U money is spent to assure oil at some price, and BTW this invludes in my book all related health, retirment costs of Gulf war syndrome etc. Then let's ask about gas under $7/gal!
That was the point I was trying to make. No one would seriously argue that the fire department should have to pay for itself, because it is a vital service. I was trying to illustrate that we should see transit in the same way. Putting a fire out is important to everyone in a community, not just the person whose house is on fire (think Chicago in 1870, or London in 1666). Likewise, public transportation is vital to everyone, not just those who ride it. It is important for a businessperson whose employees need it to get to work, and whose customers need it to come shop at his or her store. It is important for people who have to drive, because it means less traffic to deal with for them. It serves everyone, but too many people aren't looking at it in this way.
That was the point I was trying to make. No one would seriously argue that the fire department should have to pay for itself, because it is a vital service. I was trying to illustrate that we should see transit in the same way. Putting a fire out is important to everyone in a community, not just the person whose house is on fire (think Chicago in 1870, or London in 1666). Likewise, public transportation is vital to everyone, not just those who ride it. It is important for a businessperson whose employees need it to get to work, and whose customers need it to come shop at his or her store. It is important for people who have to drive, because it means less traffic to deal with for them. It serves everyone, but too many people aren't looking at it in this way.
I agree of course with what you say about the importance of transit. As to the question of why many people fail to see its benefits, well, I'd say that the benefits are too indirect in many cases to be apparent. Transit simply isn't an option for many people personally due to the location of their residences and jobs. I suspect that most people in that sort of situation just dismiss the usefulness of transit out of hand and fail to realize that they still benefit, albeit indirectly.
>>> No one would seriously argue that the fire department should have to pay for itself <<<
Here in the West there is an attempt made to have these services pay for themselves. If police are repeatedly called to a noisy party, or answer false burglar alarms, a bill for their services will be sent. For a short time there was an attempt to bill those arrested by police, but that went nowhere when it was decided that those who were not convicted of anything should not have to pay, and those who were convicted generally could not pay the bills so the cost of accounting exceeded the revenue generated. There is a program that lets some employed minor offenders (usually drunk drivers) serve their sentences on weekends, but they have to pay the county the cost of their lodging. They can even choose to serve their sentences at a local jail instead of the huge central jail by paying the local community a fee (which is higher than the county fee and varies from community to community) to use their jail. Defense attorneys have lists of the better jails, and some have to turn away prisoners because they are over booked.
Last year I was attended by Emergency personnel and transported three bocks to a hospital, and got a $600.00 + bill for their services (and $6,000.00+ for five hours in the emergency room). Also if a brush fire is caused by negligence, i.e. campfire not properly extinguished or careless smoking, the county will send a bill for putting out the fire which could run into the millions. Of course most of these bills are never paid, but the attempt is made.
Tom
I believe EMS squads can now bill health insurers for transport and treatment services, or at least use forms allowing you, the patient, to be reimbursed by your health insurer...correct me if I'm wrong.
That's the case in NYC. FDNY bills directly, although a year later.
Arti
Here in the West there is an attempt made to have these services pay for themselves. If police are repeatedly called to a noisy party, or answer false burglar alarms, a bill for their services will be sent.
Many communities throughout the country charge for excess false burglar alarms calls.
Has anybody else noticed that the congessman has the most appropriate last name in this case???
I seriously doubt another sweltering, ugly sunbelt city will be in the running after Atlanta.
But IF Houston does start looking like a contender I wonder if there will be an international outcry over Texas' less than super human rights record. Might be interesting.
Um, I'm the only one here that gets to say that about Houston. :-)
Uhh...they're going to Beijing in 2008, so I don't think international ouitcry over human rights records has much of a chance of floating with the Olympic people. If you kiss the posteriors of the IOC reps enough and slip a few perks to the proper authorities, they'd hold the thing in Kabul, Afghanaistan, Talaban not withstanding (though having all women competitors wear garments that cover their entire bodies would make for some unusual competitions...)
Ehh, probably not, but who can predict what craziness will happen between now and the closing ceremonies in 2008.
The Europeans really don't like the death penalty, or at least like poking the US in the eye about it.
Can you tell me exactly how hot and ugly it was here during the Olympics, since you were obviously here for them? My point is that no one who attended the Games here thought that they were a disaster and they actually enjoyed it. Only the reporters dissed us, becuase they didn't get the five star treament they think they deserve. What they say gets more airtime than the average person, so that's why people think that they didn't go well.
I saw interviews with tourists who said it was ugly and hot. This is my experience of Atlanta in summer, though I wasn't there in 96.
Wonderful people though!
Don'y worry you'r ahead of the curve. My city, Chicago is becoming very sunbeltish, in a generation or so it'll be indistinguishable from anywhere else!
The reporters conducting the interviews probably were intentionally looking for the few people that weren't happy. I'll give it to you though, it was hot! This year's summer hasn't been as hot as usual for some reason, however.
Was there a time when the #3 Express ever ran 10-car trains??
And a vaguely remember 8-car GG-trains! (??) Am I correct?? If so, when did the MTA begin running short G trains?
<>
No. #3 trains have always been 9 cars or less. It all has to do with the fact that the 145th St station is, was, and will probably always be only 5 cars long. A tenth car would cause a blockage preventing use of the switch south of the station.
The switch south of 145th St. has nothing to do with the #3 running only 9 cars; the switch is roughly 150 - 200 yards from the southern end of the station.
And, besides, the #3 used to run ten cars. The reason it went down to nine was for a car shortage brought on by the takeover of the 42nd Street shuttle, when the #6s R-62As were permanently coupled into five - car sets. This should be rectified when Westchester's R-62As are fully displaced by the R-142As.
true
What do you contribute by posting one word responses. I should killfile you.
>>The reason it went down to nine was for a car shortage brought on by the takeover of the 42nd Street shuttle, when the #6s R-62As were permanently coupled into five - car sets. <<
I beg to differ. The #3 was 9 cars even when the R62A's were on Shuttle duty.
However, before #3 R62A cars took over the Grand Central Shuttle, all #3 trains were still 9-car sets.
Chaohwa
Thank you Chaohwa. At least I am not the only one who remembers that fact.
No problem. When I started taking photos on NYC Subway in 1995, all #3 trains were already 9-car sets, even long before Livonia R62A cars took over Grand Central Shuttle.
Chaohwa
I remember seeing 9-car trains on the 3 even back in the late 70s. On Saturdays, they'd be 5 cars long with the conductor between the first and second cars.
I heard something to that effect as to why the 3 train is only nine cars. But now I got the full story.
OK guys, thanks for the responses! So YES, the #3 once ran 10-cars one of you said. WHEN exactly did it go down to 9-cars?? I remember 9-car trains as early as 1980, a few years BEFORE R-62's came into existence. Even when the #3's ran to Flatbush Ave, I still remember 9-cars. Tony
No, you don't. As 137th Street-Free Academy has said, the switch is not the problem. The problem is a few storage tracks at the Lenox Terminal yard that cannot hold 10 car trains.
This will be changed with a few #3s starting in the morning and ending in the evening at East 180th Street on the 2 and 5.
As for car train lengths, when the CC was using R10’s in the 1980’s they had 7-car trains. Slant R40’s that occasionally ran on said line during that period had 8 cars running in a train.
I commuted on the E from Penn Station to 7th Avenue 1984-1987 and can tell you the C was always 8 cars then with R10's or R38's.
Do they run 9 car trains on the 3 because only 4 cars can open at 145th St?
If the 3 must run 9 cars, I don't understand why they don't switch the 3 and the 4 southern terminals. It seems like the New Lots local would get many more passengers than an express to Utica, considering how few stops the 4 makes. Or would this be too complicated in terms of the track map, or because off-peak, the 4 will be so much more crowded than the 5 in lower manhattan.
If this was done, the 3 and 4 would have to cross one another, as the system is designed for 7th Avenue locals and Lexington Avenue expresses. And again, the 3 does not NEED to run 9 car trains, and it will cease doing so to some extent in the next pick or the one following.
>>>>>And a vaguely remember 8-car GG-trains!
The GG actually ran 7 car R10's.
Sorry guys, I was inquiring about the "GG", not "CC" trains. But, I can recall during the '70's and early '80's, R-38's occassionally on the "GG" (at a time when they were the rulers of the "B"). I just don't recall if there were 8 R-38's making up a "GG" train then. I do remember the R 10's and I believe sometimes R-44's or 46's!! Tony
Back in the real old days, when GG trains used the R-1 and R-9 (real IND style), there were 3-car trains on the weekend. That's why all the local stations in Queens had big signs saying "Train stop in the center of the platform."
In fact, on the Jamaica Yard lead just north of 75th Avenue, there still is a 3 car reverse marker. I was wondering what would run 3 cars.
Lorimer St. on the Canarsie line had such a sign. Of course, 3-car trains of BMT standards were common. I only saw them in 6-car trains.
I know the MVM uses a PC with Windows NT 4.0.
What does a MEM use?
Probly the same. It would be dumb for the TA to uses something different. But then again this is the TA we are speeking of.
Robert
A regular computer can't fit into one of those things, can it?
They use a flat screen in them. Also look at Lap Top computers just how small they are. So they can be a regular computer in them.
Robert
Doesn’t need to be a regular computer. If you open a beige box these days, there’s a lot of empty space. There are mini-motherboards out which have all you need for a basic PC: ATA disk, floppy, NIC, keyboard and video monitor. It’s not like an MEM is going to need Diamond Stealth graphics for high performance video…:-)
John
A computer holding a Pentium processor, 64MB of RAM, and 8 GB of hard disk storage can fit in your coat pocket. If you eliminate the keyboard (because let's say data isn't submitted from there in that application), you can shrink it down to fit in a shirt pocket.
The new B/D/S/S schedule, Q/Q schedule, and W schedule are online.
I have the old B, D, and Q schedules on my computer; I can email them to anyone who still needs them.
Some observations on the new W schedule:
1. This is a very significant increase in Astoria service. Trains are every 10 minutes throughout the day, 6-8 minutes in rush hour, added on to the N trains.
2. The most frequent AM service (6-8 mins.) leaves Ditmars from 8:16 to 9:28. These trains will arrive in Midtown after the peak rush is over. Why isn't the most frequent service earlier?
3. There's a PM rush train to Astoria that originates at Times Sq. at 4:59. Theat's a great idea to have an empty train enter service there to pick up overflow crowds. But where does that train come from before it enters revenue service?
4. I'm surprised peak direction express service runs all day, rather than just during rush. This is a disadvantage to all stations except Ditmars & Astoria Blvds. Is this because Ditmars is Vallone's home station?
5. Late evening and early morning, Ws will stop at DeKalb.
"5. Late evening and early morning, Ws will stop at DeKalb."
Nice. I can ride some new trackage :)
That's not new. IINM, the B's been doing that all along. I was also once on a random midday or rush hour B that caught us all off-guard by stopping at DeKalb after the next stop of Grand was announced.
Contrary to an earlier post, it appears that the D will run express on CPW all through the night.
What would be the local?
Arti
Doesn't the A run local at night?
Yes, the A is the local on CPW at night.
Peace,
ANDEE
Knew it all along.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know I have to pick up MARC at Perryville no problem, but do I have to change trains in Baltimore at all or is that line a straight shot to Union Station.
Also, would this trip involve the tunnell that currently still on fire???
You can look at the MARC schedule here. According to the Penn line's schedule, there are two trains from Perryville running non-stop from BWI Airport to Washington, D.C.
Penn line trains are not affected by the CSX derailment in Baltimore. Camden line trains are. You don't have to worry about it.
Be sure to visit DC during weekdays because MARC trains don't run on weekends.
Chaohwa
I'm on vacation from now through next week. That was my plan to do it on a weekday. Thanks!!!
From CBC's news website:
Stolen Indian Train Kills One
Seeing SUBWAYSURF's posting reminded me of something I saw in yesterday's NY Post (I read it because I get it for free).
July 19, 1877
"The New York and Manhattan Beach Railway was formally opened today"
"One section of the road ran from Bay Ridge to Coney Island where it connects to the Manhattan Beach Railway, which runs at present only to East New York but is ultimately to be extended to Greenpoint."
"The trains on both roads will run hourly, ferryboats from the Battery with the road at Bay Ridge ..."
"Great care has been taken to secure civil and trustworthy subordinates, who are all uniformed in neat suits of blue"
Research: Laura Harris
NY Post
Civil and trustworthy?? neat suits of blue?? Wow, have times changed.
(I'll catch hell for that I know).
Burning cars in Baltimore rail tunnel resist control:
Crews use manhole to approach blaze with cooling water;
5 of 60 cars removed;
heat makes cleanup of acid leak difficult
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.train20jul20.story
This is slowly turning into a rail soap opera. Besides the stubborn fire (which no one, BCFD, FRA, NTSB, CSX, MdDeptEnviron, or anyone you can mention knows what's burning, how many cars are on or off the track, how much rail is torn up, or how much of the tunnel is damaged), we are still dealing with a very stubborn water main break that is trying the patience of DPW and the motoring public. Two valves are so corroded that they are useless, one broke in half and will have to be replaced, and a possible valve that can be used is right in the middle of the Light Rail tracks at Howard & Saratoga.
There was an attempt to pull the undamaged 45 cars out of the tunnel using 3 CSX high horsepower units (one ex-ConRail), but the heat and smoke was still to intense. 4 people (2 CSX, one MdEnviron and 1 from a local chemical unit) were overcome, 2 went to Shock-Trauma and 2 treated at local ER's. As of 6:45 news was received that an attempt to pull 5 cars out should be tried tonight.
All MTA bus lines that cross downtown are being turned back at the edge of the area and returned to the outer terminals. Light Rail is still suspended between North Ave. and Patapsco Ave. stations with bus bridges between. This might continue this way for several more days to a week or more. The Metro (subway) will operate 7 days a week starting this Sunday and remains a viable way to downtown and East Baltimore.
Experts now fear that the extreme heat being generated in the tunnel will cause damage to the 106 year old brickwork and much repair/rehab will be required before it can be placed back in service.
Right now, much of CSX's east coast operations are severely affected by this, with 2-3 week delays in getting cargo to points between Washington and New York.
I just took a lil trip to my nearest subway station to get a new subway map. The token booth lady at 179th station said we don't have any. So i go to Jamaica center and they said no subway station will have any until sunday! Arghh what a wasted trip. Good thing i rode my bike to the station or i would have wasted a trip. Alot of commuters looked at me funny because i had a Mongoose bike in a subway station :).
oh well
I already posted: 86th on the 1/9, at least at the rush hour entrance at 87th, gave me a new map on Wednesday. I don't know if they're still there.
Ooooo, also they have the neighborhood maps on both ends at the 86st entrances, sorry for the off-topic comment, but david, do you live in the upper west side?
Just go into Manhattan and get them at the Transit Museum store in GCT.
I was at the INTREPID carrier touring with the parents, and they had the international maps for July in an info rack inside!
Ironic, those people just visiting for the week last week had maps that were wrong, and those who were planning ahead for their commute had the same 'ol same 'ol.
I go you one better. Every once in a while I see a tourist using a subway map from the pre-The Map days. I am always tempted to ask them how old the map is but I refrain as not to cause any embarassment on their part or my part (If I carried a supply of the latest maps with me all the time I would offer them one).
That's an idea. I'd love to get my hands on some of the old maps. If I carry around a stash of current ones, I can offer to trade with tourists.
I saw someone with a pre-12/11/88 map at (of all stations) Union Turnpike! He was very confused at why the Es were express and the Fs, local, and even moreso when he was told by the C/R that he should take the E to the LIRR station.
The maps are now int he booths. The map is the sdame July 2001version that was out briefly. According to a picture in either the Post or News there is also an international version and I saw a single copy in one booth. I examined that version also. Neither edition of the 7/2001 map has the M going to Brooklyn Mid-days. I still think there **might** be an 8/2001 map showing the M to Brooklyn mid-days and later in the evening.
I was told the same thing at Bowling Green station last night. "No maps anywhere in the system." I gave the clerk a disbelieving look and she just shrugged. They did have Manhattan bus maps though ... I take it those will be updated too (since the subway routes are printed on them) ... ?
I already picked up the latest (July 2001) edition of "The Map" at my local Metro North station in Hastings-on-Hudson so I'm ready. I'm all ready for the changes in service. In simple terms you've got to take the BMT Broadway line in Manhattan for direct service to the West End Line and the Brighton Line in Brooklyn. THE BMT RULES!!!
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I was posting on the M today and was given the Supplements to bring back to Metropolitan.
M service during the Am and PM rush hours will remain the same - Met to Bay Pkway.
Midnight and Weekend service remains the same - Met to Myrtle.
Service M-F middays will run from Met to 9th Ave in Brooklyn. This is the ONLY change from current service.
So, I guess that Kings Highway thing was bogus. I guessed that the M's would have terminated at 9th from the beginning, but when someone mentioned Kings Highway, I trusted that their facts were correct. Aww well.
Of course it wasn't accurate. Logic would tell you there would be no reason to add service to the Sea Beach when the Sea Beach isn't an affected line.
Too bad...I was hoping they'd extend it down the West End late evenings also. If i'm in Lower Manhattan, I alway get to a JMZ station just after the M's finish running..
I shouldn't be affected by the supplement.One of the alternatives was to run it to 9 ave 24/7!That would've been a total waste of money.The TA should've planned for this a long time ago when the service changes on the other lines were being formulated.As a result, different M jobs could've been written into the work programs.
So it runs middays when the W still runs, but not Weekends, when both West End and Myrtle are shuttles. I just don't get their way of thinking.
On weekends, they could run the M to C.I. and kill the W, but that might mean 4 services through the tunnel (N,Q,M,R) so that won't happen.
Where do you get the weekend "Q" running thru the BMT tunnel?
Normal weekend Q service is via bridge, but the only logical reason to truncate W service to Pacific St. is because a lot of planned weekend G.O's will end up rerouting the Q up the tunnel anyway.
I see, so the only reason W is being turned at Pacific is in anticipation of G.O.'s coming down the line, so no space for Q, N, R and W in the tunnel.
But until the actual G.O. comes along, why can't the W run into Manhattan? I don't see anything about any G.O.'s on the Bridge (South).
Or because GO's will reroute the N and R over the bridge. (Rector needs a rehab.) In that case, the M (or J) could run through the tunnel without getting in anyone's way. In fact, perhaps it should, to 95th. Cancel the R entirely and run the E local in Queens.
Then let them operate the "N" over the Bridge on weekends, when the "W" is curtailed to Pacific St.
Why should the "W" be curtailed at pacific when the "W" has more riders than the "N"?
My take on it is:
Given the Bridge flip, possible weekend detours of everything thru "the Tunnel", Stillwell reconstruction, and that the West End line's C.I. platform is the only one that will not be disrupted, a Pacific Street - Coney Island W on weekends is the only constant the Southern Divsion will see for 3 years - so one less G.O.
After the bridge is completed, Stillwell Ave is rebuilt and the West End signal replacment is done, I propose a 10 year ban on any significant GO's on any Southern Division BMT line. These lines have been abused enough for 20 years now.
All 3 could be run, as it was done in 1986-88 (weekend bridge service of B, D AND N service).
Either the N or W should run over the bridge. Lower Manhattan is a lower priority on weekends and only one bridge train (Q) will be insufficient.
Not only that, but the N and W lines will now run on a supplement schedule for the entire pick.
Ran into Mark W. last night (6:20) at Pacific Street northbound on the N line. He was on the job and looking every bit the part.
P.S. -- You could kick up the 'volume' a notch when you're making station announcents....;-)
Go luck, Mark. And thanks for the booklet.
BMTman
Hey Doug.....easy way to have Mark W. kick up the volume....Have his favorite passenger (Dennis R.) ride his train....LOL
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not that thing!!!!!
Oh.....So were you that guy going car to car begging for pennies? ;-)
MW
Mark, ya know I gotta pay the rent somehow....;-)
Considering the last D trains from 205 will still be going through Stillwell and back home, there will be Brighton local service, so maybe to get trains to 57/7 faster in case they don't have a starting train there, the first Qs should run exp on the Brighton until the end of D service. What do you think?
The first B-Div. class from the street is now out on the road (the A div. classes were transferred to B and now have to remain in training to be familiarized with the yards and routes).
So after 4 station stops along the G line today (our road practical), and cuts, adds, and finding brake pipe ruptures yesterday (yard practical), everyone from both my and TonyIND's classes passed, and we start Sunday Night or Mon. (still have to find my report time, but the Crew office line is busy now).
So wish us luck.
Eric B Div T/O
Congratulations!
Is anybody here going to be working the early morning Q or W this Sunday?
I've got a W job on Sunday morning - 5 trips to Pacific. Sunday (and Monday) will also be the first day that the 40 A to B transfers hit the road on their own.
If I get up the energy to go outside today (I was up late last night), I'll be sure to ride the W. I'll be standing right behind you (or next to you, if those R-40's on the B make it over to the W and I catch one). Feel free to identify yourself.
Eric,
Congrats!!!
May your BIE's be far and few between.
Congratulations...
As an aspiring T/O here, coudl you tell me what the process is (and is like) to become one?
I am a T/O in school car in the B division. I can tell you what the process is like. Step 1, when the T/O test is announced file as soon as you can (your list number is affected by this). Step 2, wait about a year for your test results. Step 3, about 1 month after test results you will be called for a "survey" (psychological exam). Step 4, 2 to 6 months later you will be called in for a drug test. Step 5, about 1 month later you get called for a physical exam that includes eye and hearing exams and a cursory exam by a "doctor". NOTE: UNLESS YOU ARE IN EXCELLENT PHYSICAL SHAPE THESE "DOCTORS" WILL FIND SOMETHING TO HOLD YOU BACK WITH. Step 6, having jumped through all the "hoops" for the "doctor" you get fingerprinted and id photo and told when to report to school car. Good Luck and Best Wishes!
Wow, I had no clue that your list number would be affected by how long you wait until the filing deadline.
The T/O list is up to 718, and I am 740something, and have been told that the next class is tentatively scheduled for October, but I have a feeling it'll be January.
>>>>>>>>Wow, I had no clue that your list number would be affected by how long you wait until the filing deadline.
Only in the event of a tie in scoring is the filing date taken into account. A person who scores 88 who filed on the last day takes precedence over a person who scores 87 and filed on the first day.
"""I am a T/O in school car in the B division. I can tell you what the process is like. Step 1, when the T/O test is announced file as soon as you can (your list number is affected by this). Step 2, wait about a year for your test results. Step 3, about 1 month after test results you will be called for a "survey" (psychological exam). Step 4, 2 to 6 months later you will be called in for a drug test. Step 5, about 1 month later you get called for a physical exam that includes eye and hearing exams and a cursory exam by a "doctor". NOTE: UNLESS YOU ARE IN EXCELLENT PHYSICAL SHAPE THESE "DOCTORS" WILL FIND SOMETHING TO HOLD YOU BACK WITH. Step 6, having jumped through all the "hoops" for the "doctor" you get fingerprinted and id photo and told when to report to school car. Good Luck and Best Wishes!"""
Thanks for the info...and are T/O Tests announced anywhere besides that "The Chief" newspaper I was told about? and how often are they give?
Um, that doctor check-up sounds slightly disturbing...how held up does a typical applicant get in that part of the process, and do most people make it through?
-West End Scott
Great! May you enjoy a long career!
Congratulations to you, Eric!
After a few attempts, I was able to get through to the crew office: I have the 208 C job out of Pitkin Yard at 0852 on Sunday.
Will good luck on the C. Just remember that is a 8 car train. Most of the 8 car marks can be seen as you enter. There are a few that are hidden or to dark to see. 34th street both direction are hidden, Nostran Ave South bound it is behind the platform sign for the train. Just take your time entering the station and try to spot them as you enter. Also watch out as you come nouth bound into 110th street, it's a very fast station. Take full brake as you enter the station if you are going faster then 35mph. The 8 car mark is two car lenth from the 10 car. Remeber Nouth bound Bottom yellow South of Hoyt street and nouth of Canal steet also the WD entering Canal street. South you need a bottom yellow South of Canel street and south of Hoyt Street also the WD entering Canal Street.
Also, make shore you get a TSS when you do your put in. Let the tower know that it's your first day out and you want one to make shore you are doing the per trip right.
I remenber my first day out, boy was I scard. The TSS rode me all the way out to 71st Cont on the R. Now I only have two 1/2 mouth left on Prob. I get a TSS mayby once a week. If the line TSS's know that you know what you are doing they well come less and less. There is only one or two line that they ride you every time you on them. They are the B and N. But again they might only ride you for a couple of stop.
Good Luck. Have fun with it.
Robert
P.S. I just found out after try of and hour 1/2 that I have N204 from Astora. Look the New Jack gets early work then me. What a system we work for.
By the way, I have a 8:00am bourd at Elcud Ave. Tomorrow.
Robert
Eric:
Best of luck to you. I'm sure you willl learn the tricks, timers, & signals real soon and be an expert T/O.
Chuck Greene
Stay safe out there. You came to work in one piece, go home the same way. Good luck and be well.
Pacific St., 5:30 Am I was told.
Now I have to try to go to sleep now, wake up at 10:30 to try to get the last D over the bridge, and then stay at my parents on Roosevelt Island and leave there at 4:30 for Pacific to 34th for
Hope I can do it, or I'll be upset they made my schedul;e conflict with the changes and my sleep (There are enough people who want AM's. I wanted PM's. RDO's are the lowest priority Tues/Weds)
Anyway, it will be nice to operate the new letter on its first day. Just have to watch my first stop: 36th, with the 10 car marker and punch right on the homeball, with R-68A's that can be tricky to stop exactly where you want them. Did OK on them in poting though)
coincidently I'm riding the first Q exprss out of Manhatthan to work
>>>>>>>Now I have to try to go to sleep now, wake up at 10:30 to try to get the last D over the bridge, and then stay at my parents on Roosevelt Island and leave there at 4:30
You're risking sleep and your new job by taking the last D train. And you're working an unfamiliar shift. Stay home and sleep. DON'T BE STUPID.
>>>>>>Just have to watch my first stop: 36th, with the 10 car marker and punch right on the homeball
Here's something that I do to avoid stopping on top of the red homeball at 36th Street. When you are passing 25th Street, get on the radio to Murphy Tower and give them your call letters.
Example: Hello, Murphy Tower. Approaching 36th Street on 3 track you have the 5:45 W out of Pacific.
9 times out of 10 the tower will have the ball cleared for you before you attempt to make a stop.
Someone at Murphy was awake today: on all 5 trips, the homeball was set for me while I was still going through the timers. No punch needed!
They probably left the "gate" open since the W was the only train using the middle track. They were probably still sleeping! :)
>You're risking sleep and your new job by taking the last D train. And you're working an unfamiliar shift. Stay home and sleep. DON'T BE STUPID.
Just what the wifey said. I had been weiging it, and tried to get extra rest in the afternoon, but the block party outside was keeping me awake anyway. I probably wouldn't have gotten the sleep anyway. I Plus, I was already so annoyed by the report time and RDO's that to let it make me miss this event would have been abigger insult. I had been waiting for this for so long.
Anyway, after getting some rest at my father's house, I was just fine. I can go one day without much sleep, especially as wound up as I was with all that's going on and still function, but now, or course, I'm going to have to get some sleep for my 600 E job.
Also helping the situaion, the job I was assigned to was just a switching (relay) job. I picked up the W's at Pacific, recharged, waited for the T/O to clean out the train and reach the other end, and then just ran to the 10 CAR marker past the switch, so the T/O could bring it back to Pacific. I got off, crossed over and waited for the next one (after a while, a second switchman reported)
So I started off right at the center of the madness. As every train came in, we had to redirect everyone, keep them from boarding, etc. Once, two people jumped right on and the doors closed. Only I saw it, and I pointed it to the dispatcher, who keyed them off
On the other side, as the train reentered service, everyone was asking "does this go to 36th?". I said "just like the B, no more B here"
The Supt. told me as well the service was cut because "You don't need so many lines running, but the B ran. It's the same thing, only shifted to the other tracks. If work comes up, then cut it like they always did.
They really do need to replace this shuttle with the M on weekends. A lot of people were asking for W 4th and Bway LAfayette. Running to take over the controls, it was hard for me to redirect them. Take the N&R to 8th St. It's kind of nearby, but maybe not close enough for some. the 2 & 3 to Chambers for the 1 to Christopher? The 4 to Bklyn Bridge for the 6 to Bleecker (no coonection uptown.) One lady just said she was going to go the other way to get the F at 9th St. I warned her she had to be way up in front (we were in the back, southbound) and the big climb. With all the focus on Grand St., what's ignored is that the M would provide a connection to the lower IND, with the transfer at Fulton. The A & C would take them right to W4. People are saying here "It's a waste, Bowery still won't be used", but even if it isn't, Fulton would be. (I'd still keep Broad closed to eliminate the excuse that it is too underused on weekends.)
Congatulations!
I would like to wish you alot of luck on your new career from one T/O
to another. Have fun and enjoy your new position.
Ms.SEPTA
Way to go, all of you. Hope you're all nice and aggressive. Flog those hippos!
Dan
Congrats and welcome to the club ... keep that cutting key handy, it'll get you into a beer can when your tour's over. Heh.
Is it true that you guys don't have radios?
I was told that out of the class of 100 or so, all of them do not have radios issued. Make sure you newbies tell terminal and yard supervision you don't have one and do not leave any terminal in mainline service without one until after you notify control center.
Good luck, and be careful out there. Hope everythings goes peachy-keen.
Gotta be truthful here, but I hope the Crew Office waxes your asses for the first year (initiation rites).
If the crew office treats these guys any different from us, someone will end up regretting it.
On railroads, crews are tested on the physical characteristics of the territory and can only operate in their qualified territory. Are you qualified to operate any route?
Michael
He SHOULD be qualified to operate any non-OPTO route in the IND/BMT.
"Road Posting" was when I operated all the routes once (The A, D & F twice), except for the Franklin and Rockaway PArk shuttles (OPTO). This includes the now suspended (cut in half) routes. For the new routes, we rode on the qualification train (Called "QT" on the radio) like everyone else.
Why shouldn't he be qualified to run on the IRT?
Because that's a separate division with varying rules and requires separate training. A road T/O is only allowed to work one division at a time.
In the July 19-26, 2001 issude of Time Out New York (TONY), there are a number of items dealing with the NYC Subway:
Page 20: A short piece on the "logic" on how the lines are numbered/lettered.
Pages 22-23: a look at what goes on under the sidewalk
Pages 26-27: an article on the Control Center at Jay St.
Page 44: TONY's take on Sunday's big changes entitled "The routes of all evil". On the sam epage they point out that some stations now have new names (they have been reading the map obviously).
This article is at http://www.timeoutny.com/aroundtown/304/304.subways.html
Example: Lexington Av (E,F) is now Lexington Av-53rd St
Lexington Av (63rd St) is now Lexington Av-63rd St
Fifth Av (E, F) is now Fifth Av-53rd St
Fifth Av (N, R) is now Fifth Av-60th St
Second Av (F) is now Lower East Side-Second Av
The first 4 I can see the change as designed to remove the confusion on like named stations. The last one I guess is to push the "Lower East Side"
I already posted this station name change info yesterday. As one respsondent pointed out, the change of 2d Ave. to Lower East Side is probably because that will be the terminus of the new V train. Most terminuses are designated by a neighborhood as well as a street.
>>I already posted this station name change info yesterday<<
So you did. But good things are always worth repeating.
Qtraindash7's "last Orange Q's" run was an unprecendented success! There were four of us. I hoped off early at Newkirk to head home, but everyone else was continuing on to Stillwell. I'll let the man with the plan himself fill you all in on the details.
Just as one era is ending, a new one is beginning. Long live the dash.
Yup, LONG LIVE THE DASH!
Wow!!!! I missed you guys by an hour. I caught the 2:10pm out of 21St. Took it down to Sheepshead Bay, and caught the D for the last in Bklyn :(:( to CI. Then I took the B up to Pacific for the R to Lawrence, where I went to 370 and got the new maps.
There is a switch on the r142s located in the window of ajacent to
the end door. It has a red handle and is has a sign saying "Disconnect before servicing" or something like that.
What does it do?
Blows the Horn?
It blocks the storm doors so they won't impale someone exacting repairs on them.
At Coney Island, and other stations along the Brighton line, the new signs are up. Q, Q in diamond, and W signs. I also saw an out of service train heading North on the South side of the bridge. Today was my last ride on the North side. Next Friday, I want to do Astoria to Coney on the W. That should be fun! Express in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn. COOL!
Yeah I left that one out. There was a school car signed up as an N going across the bridge. Or maybe it was just OOS since it was full length.
The new map is finally up on the TA's web site. The relevant corrections at W. 8th Street and at Court (House) Square have been made. The M is still indicated as a rush hour service south of Chambers.
The schedules page has also been updated (except the M).
Funny that Brighton has a separate line for express route, MTA usually does this with peak running expresses.
Arti
There's no other way to show it, as both lines are the same letter and color.
It wasn't there last night at midnight.
It wasn't there a few hours ago. I've been checking periodically.
Hoooray! I downloaded all the schedules today. Only the BMT/IND routes are dated July 2001. I'll be checking the M schedule daily to see if it's updated to reflect service to 9thAV middays.
Your link led me to a map dated June, 2000.
Try reloading. I checked again and it's still the July 2001 map.
When I logged on Saturday morning (see 241163 in this thread), the new map appeared. I guess it takes a while to travel the 3,000 miles to the Left Coast.
I can't see that it would be different, since the MTA servers are the same. Next time hit REFRESH or RELOAD.
Um...that was my feeble attempt at making a sardonic remark.
If the F, N, Q and W stop at Stillwell Avenue, why is it that only the B has handicap accessibility.
Because tracks 7 and 8 were the only ones with viable space to install an elevator.
Of course, this station should become fully ADA compatable on all tracks once the renovations begin.
My point was not that the westernmost platform is the only one with ADA access, but the point is that it says "B only" when it should say "W only."
Then you have discovered one of the numerous typos in the maps. It was just recently that the "B only" wording was added to the maps with regard to ADA access at Stillwell.
FWIW, that error is not on the printed map.
If you look up at 205th St (D) the way they placed the route indicators would give someone the impression that the B goes up there map as well instead of ending at Bedford Park Blvd. The printed version shows the B ending at Bedford Park.
Indeed.
The TA should hire us as proofreaders. (Well, not me -- I don't think I've actually caught any of the errors.)
Yes, indeed, the map is up.
Notice also that the part-time 63rd St Connector service is denoted by a dotted orange line on this map.
As it was on the previous printed map, which never made it onto the web.
Has the Aqueduct Racetrack station been abandoned? It is not shown on the new map.
>>>>>>Has the Aqueduct Racetrack station been abandoned? It is not shown on the new map.
Yes it is. Look again.
My March 2001 map shows Aqueduct Racetrack on the A line just north of Aqueduct North Conduit station, inbound only, with a note "Open 11am-7pm on racing days." This is missing from the map on the MTA website. I haven't seen the new printed map.
The new printed map shows it.
And the ASCII map has been updated, fwiw, which isn't much.msh210
Hey, that is pretty cool!
I see one problem, though.
You say that "black is used on this map when trains of two or more different 'colors' run on the same line for a stretch or stop at the same station ". For clarity, however, I think you need to amend this criterion, and remove the bit after the "or". Black should really only be used when the the lines in question actually run on the same tracks, like on Central Park West or 53rd St.
I don't think it is a good idea to use this same convention on the stretch between Park Place and Bway-Nassau/Fulton (2/3 and A/C), or heading north from Bway-Nassau/Fulton to Canal St. (4/5 and J/M). Conflating intra-divisional and cross-divisional transfers seems wrong to me, and doing so covers up a useful distinction about the type of transfer necessary. Would it be impossibly hard to replace the black lines with the different-colored lines in those places?
Finally, while I realize that stations with multiple names are a problem, it is nevertheless inadequate to lable that large downtown station served by the 2/3 and the A/C (and even by the E) as "PkPl" (Park Place), and to thereby ignore the name "World Trade Center". (I understand ignoring the name "Chambers St.") It would probably be better to label that station as "WTC" or "WTC/PP".
Overall, well done!
Ferdinand Cesarano
I don't see a problem for using one station (on a map) for interdivisional transfers -- it is one station, now. Otoh, I fully agree with you about not using one line (on the map) for two lines that happen to stop at the same station, such as north of Fulton. However, yes, it'd be a pain in the neck to do it the other way, so I'm leaving it as is. Granted, it's inaccurate, but it suffices for all (i.e., people who just want to know how/where to go) but railfans.
Concerning Park Place, I suppose you're right. Here's what I'll do: I'll relabel it WTC with a notation (at the bottom of the page) that that stands for "World Trade Center / Chambers Street / Park Place". (Another correction to be made there, btw, is to note that the E stops there, which I shall.)
Thanks a lot!msh210
I wasn't really talking about changing the station markers. A single marker per station (even if the station has multiple names and serves lines of different divisions) is really the best way to go. Sorry if I implied otherwise.
The only thing I had in mind as a means of showing cross-divisional transfers would have been lines of different colors converging at a single station marker (as, for example, the A and the 1 at 168th St.).
But, I also understand your point about it being a pain in the neck.
Anyway, I am honored that you made that change at the World Trade Center station.
Once again, cool map. Let us know if you ever get to do any of the other boroughs.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Now, is the M going to run to Brooklyn on the West End during midday hours? I saw this in the Daily News, but they were vauge on exactly what times the M will run. It said, "peak hours." The M already runs this way during rush hours. Running it into Brooklyn all day is good.
Kudos to the Chinese community downtown for caring about their neighborhood and getting things done. I think we all could take a lesson from the South side of Manhattan. If enough people band together, they can make changes.
There have been rumors about the North side ending up closed for years like the South side was. I don't see this. It seems subway pride and enthusiasm are way up since the '80's. With ridership on the rise, I don't see people allowing it to happen. It's about time New Yorkers regained pride and love for the system that built this city.
M middays to 9th.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/mline.htm
Arti
It's pre 1995 service pattern is being restored. Praise the lord. Perhaps 3 years of all-day M service will force the TA to keep it permanently.
The Papers do say that M service will run from 5 Am to 10 PM. Can anyone tell me when the first M to leave Metropolitan Ave in the AM going to Bay Parkway is scheduled to leave?
Hello,
I thought I would provide a service to this board by giving you a peak into what the service changes are for the new Manhattan Bridge re-routing, as far as what trains run when, etc.
Now I'm sure this has been posted about, oh 6 BILLION times already, but I thought, since I visited some sources, including the MTA's web site, which DOES contain a new subway map with the changes included, that I might report this to you here.
Ok so here goes:
***
B and D trains will run normally in the Bronx and in upper Manhattan. They terminate at 34 Street on the 6th Avenue Line.
The Q train route from 21 Street/Queensbridge is completely replaced.
The B is replaced with the W.
W TRAIN - Astoria West End Express
Rush Hours: Ditmars Blvd, Queens to Stillwell Av/Coney Island, Brooklyn. Express in Queens (to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM), express in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Middays: Ditmars Blvd, Queens to Stillwell Av/Coney Island, Brooklyn. Local in Queens, Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Evenings (after 9:30 PM): 57 St/7 Av, Manhattan to Stillwell Av/Coney Island, Brooklyn. Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Manhattan-Bound trains stop at DeKalb Avenue after 11:15 PM.
Nights: 36 St/4 Av, Brooklyn, to Stillwell Av/Coney Island, Brooklyn.
Weekends: Pacific Street, Brooklyn to Stillwell Av/Coney Island, Brooklyn. Express in Brooklyn from Pacific St to 36 St.
The D is replaced by the Q LOCAL (Q with a circle)
Q LOCAL TRAIN - Broadway Express/Brighton Local
All Times: 57 St/7 Av, Manhattan to Stillwell Av/Coney Island, Brooklyn. Express in Manhattan, all stops in Brooklyn.
The Q to Brooklyn is replaced by the Q EXPRESS (Q with a diamond)
Q EXPRESS TRAIN - Broadway Express/Brighton Express
Rush Hours, Middays and Evenings until 9 PM: 57 St/7 Av, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn. Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
The Q to Queens is replaced by the Orange S Train.
ORANGE SHUTTLE TRAIN - 63 St/6 Av Shuttle
All times: 21 St/Queensbridge, Queens, to Broadway/Lafayette St, Manhattan. All stops. Late night and weekend service subject to change due to trackwork.
Grand street is served by the Black S Train. This is the third black S train which will now operate, in addition to the Grand Central and Franklin Av Shuttles.
BLACK SHUTTLE TRAIN - Grand Street Shuttle
All times: Broadway/Lafayette St, Manhattan to Grand St, Manhattan.
Effective November 4, Shuttle will be extended to West 4 St, Manhattan.
Super express buses will also operate from 10 PM to 5 AM, between Grand Street, Manhattan and DeKalb Avenue, Brooklyn.
Finally M train service will increased during weekdays. M trains will serve Manhattan from Metropolitan Av between 5 AM and 10 PM. This helps with Chinatown passengers and the Bowery station.
phew! I think that's everything.
- Jose
One small but important correction: the B train runs as usual on weekdays only. There is no B service on weekends or nights.
David,
The current B train does operate on weekends from 145 St, Manhattan to Stillwell Av, Coney Island; and during nights as the west end shuttle from 36 St/4 Av to Stillwell Av, Coney Island. I am not sure if there were any temporary changes in B train service the past few weeks, but this is the way it would normally run.
The W train, the B's replacement, will also operate during nights from 36 St/4 Av to Stillwell, but on weekends, only from Pacific Street to Stillwell.
- Jose
My point is that the new B (not the W) will only operate weekdays. That's very much unlike current service, which runs weekends, too.
the overnight R shuttle is extended to 36th Street. Northbound will run express from 59th to 36th(for 53rd and 45th use the N).
Late night,overnight and weekend DF runs via CPW local.
Hasn't the overnight R shuttle run to 36th until now?
According to the schedules (which may or may not be correct -- personally, I hope they're not), the D will always run express on CPW.
Stop hoping the schedules are not correct. Subway schedules are my rock. I depend on them. If you can't trust a subway schedule, then what can you trust? There would be nothing left to live for...
The schedules are more like a wish list/best guess than a rock…
Is this the OFFICIAL version?, Peggy?
Peace,
ANDEE
In the history of transit have fares ever actually gone down? Maybe due to public outrage over a preceeding fare increase?
Fares were decreased in Manhattan elevated days, when the off-hour fare was reduced from 10c to 5c.
Fares were decreased in many instances with the Dual COntract requirements of a 5c fare.
Fares were decreased with advent of the MetroCard discounts. Yeah, I know the cash fare is still $1.50, but the 10% bonus, the unlimited cards, the bus-subway transfers, free Staten Island ferry, etc., represent a massive effective fare decrease.
YES. When the rockaway line first opened, asecond fare was charged south of Broad Channel. I think it was when the fare went up from $0.75 that the double fare zone was dropped, so residents on the Rockaway Peninusla wne from $1.50 one way to $0.80 one way.
Before you respond that it was removed earlier or later, it was still a fare cut for those riders.
It was in 1975 when the fare went up to 50˘. I may be wrong, but it was still there in 1972, gone by 1978. The fare went to 75˘ in 1981.
Fares were decreased in Manhattan elevated days, when the off-hour fare was reduced from 10c to 5c.
Fares were decreased in many instances with the Dual COntract requirements of a 5c fare.
Fares were decreased with advent of the MetroCard discounts. Yeah, I know the cash fare is still $1.50, but the 10% bonus, the unlimited cards, the bus-subway transfers, free Staten Island ferry, etc., represent a massive effective fare decrease.
I suppose one could argue that the long-lived 5-cent fare was "decreased" over time due to the effects of inflation. Five cents in the fare's last year was worth a lot less than five cents in its first year.
Paul - dont you remember when WE were young - the extra fare the coductor used to collect on the IND Rockaway line past a certain point - back in the early to mid 60's - around Howard Beach or so - I seem to recall an extra 15 cents collected - or am I wrong - a few times I rode the line I think I recall that happening and didnt ride it much until later I heard the extra fare was recinded -Please refresh my memory on that---Thanks - Joe
I remember having to pay an extra fare to get OFF the train ... you had to put a coin into the exit turnstile ... but I may be suffering from brain damage - we're always the last to know. :)
YOoooo - Honarks Oinkway - hiyaaaa - yeah - I wonder if thats what I forgot - maybe in crossing OVER the
tracks at Hammels or Howard Beach or wherever you would cross over / under the tracks to get to opposite platform and its train for return trip without leaving "the property--ie: not going to the public street and then back to station" --maybe they had the passage to opposite plaform fare-gated to collect a return trip fare instead of a free cross--
over or under as was usual at all other line(s)
station mezzanines - see my post to Stephen Bauman also - I know it PO'd me then to pay that extra fare
and I stayed off that line until they recinded that BS I think in the late 60's - maybe you can remember. But, you know I was an IRT (Irreplaceable Rugged Trains) man anyway so that line was a LONG haul for me - especially if you had to take a "whizzz....." - thats why motormen had extra empty coffee cup-containers---but Low & High V IRT guys had it easy - just slide the platform sliding door open a bit (some guys had a latch bar to hook it open about a foot in summer for a side-breeze into the cab)--and "let it whizzz---fly! Remember?? - but, then, YOU were stuck in a full solid R1/9 cab and had to use your T/O side window --(fond memories!!??) Well..you are at the half-century mark this year (like an old Hi-V Deck Roofer in 1960) -
so we do have our memory fadeouts here & there!!!
You remember the sweet & sour fragrance of blue
ozone smoke the R 1/9's motors were legend for
generating in the tunnels - your headlights (you kept yours OFF) would pick up that haze as if you were behind a '49 Hudson with very bad ring-blow by
on all pistons in the Holland Tunnel (with the lights off in the tunnel)....remember the fragrance!! Yeah--some things dont fade away.....
Memories..........
"You remember the sweet & sour fragrance of blue ozone smoke the R 1/9's motors were legend for generating in the tunnels".
That's one thing no one was ever able to record (??--any railfans canning subway air in the '50s??). Each division (IRT, BMT, IND, plus Hudson Tubes) had a very distinctive smell, even decades after Unification. You could plunk me down blindfolded at 34th-6th I could tell you what platform I was on--in fact, if you didn't know where the Tubes were, you just followed your nose--very strong and distinctive odor (Eau d'McAdoo?).
It may sound funny, but it's true. I never met anyone with a complete or definitive explanation--I suppose a combination of the ozone produced by different kinds of motors, maybe the composition of brake components and lubricants favored by one company or the other?
Wasn't just ozone, it was burning OIL, and let's not forget the sweet phenolic smell of my babies. :)
Back before the toasters on wheels, the subway was a cacaphony of sight, smell and sound that nothing today can compared to (OK, the "whirr" is new heh) ... but just like today's oil burners, the old oil burners of yore (hey kids, who remembers trackside grease?) were able to take anything that oozed out of the curve lubers and turn it into a multimedia experience. Who needs Smellovision? (grin)
That's one thing no one was ever able to record (??--any railfans canning subway air in the '50s??). Each division (IRT, BMT, IND, plus Hudson Tubes) had a very distinctive smell, even decades after Unification. You could plunk me down blindfolded at 34th-6th I could tell you what platform I was on--in fact, if you didn't know where the Tubes were, you just followed your nose--very strong and distinctive odor (Eau d'McAdoo?).
Some things haven't changed. PATH stations still have a distinctive musky odor.
It took two tokens to enter a turnstile on the Rockaways and Broad Channel. It took an extra token exit through these turnstiles. There was also a special arrangement, involving a paper voucher, for people travelling within the double fare zone.
I don't remember any instance of fares being collected on the Rockaways' trains. So far as I remember, the only lines that had such collection were the late night Dyre Ave Line and the lower Myrtle.
Hi Stephen---- I do recall the two token sitation but what happened to a thru passenge who boarded the IND Rockaway line in the inner part of the City - say in Queens or Brooklyn - got on the train for the standard fare? ---did passenger ride to Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park Branches for that single fare...I seem to remember differently but I cant recall the exact way it was handled - only that the few times I experienced that extra fare (I remember it because it was collected from me & others on the train) it annoyed me as what was the big deal for an extra fare to Rockaway...can you refresh m memory as to a thru rider getting away with no extra fare - perhaps at any station on the Rockaway branches that one
detrained to cross over to get the opposite train
via the mezzanine (usually free) underpass connecting the platforms - there was a setup to cause payment of extra fare to get on opposite platform - it was 40 years ago and my memory is vague as to the how method...but I never left the structure "or property" (ie: going to the street which would necessitate a new fare payment) but I do remember
getting hit a few times with the extra fare and ended up staying off that line for my joyrides past the Fulton El cutoff area...maybe you can figure out the thru-passenger "surcharge collection" if they
never left the train when it changed ends at terminal and stayed for the return trip to the City
inbound -----thanks for your help
I did it for sheets and giggles and if you paid one fare and never got off the train, you rode back on your original "Y" coin ... could well have been they did the ticket thing but not on any of my few rides out there ... perhaps in the very beginning right after the takeover ...
I do recall the two token sitation but what happened to a thru passenge who boarded the IND Rockaway line in the inner part of the City - say in Queens or Brooklyn - got on the train for the standard fare? ---did passenger ride to Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park Branches for that single fare...I seem to remember differently but I cant recall the exact way it was handled
Those wishing to exit the station had to pay a single extra fare. The fare was collected at the turnstile, which did not permit a free exit. So persons starting north of Broad Channel paid 1 fare to enter the subway and another fare to leave it at Broad Channel and the Rockaways for a total of 2 fares.
Those wishing to enter a station south of Howard Beach had to deposit 2 tokens into the turnstile. They exit for free, north of Broad Channel, for a total of 2 fares.
A problem arose for people entering and leaving the double-fare zone (e.g. Rockaway Park to Playland) because they would pay 3 fares under this scenario. This was handled with a time-stamped paper voucher that the entering passenger would receive from the token agent. The passenger would deposit 2 tokens and enter the system. The passenger would exchange the voucher with the token agent at the exiting stop (within the double-fare zone) for a token and a free exit at a special turnstile, for a total of a single fare.
The token booths at Broad Channel and the Rockaways were designed and placed so as to service both the uncontrolled and the controlled areas.
I can't say if all the stations had/have free cross-overs. As I remember most did. Certainly Mott Ave and Rockaway Park have island platforms. I doubt that you were ever in danger of getting charged an extra fare, so long as you stayed on the train. Getting out for a breath of salt air would have cost 3 tokens.
Thank you Steve - it is all coming back to me now - I do now recall having to pay 2 fares at the entry point of the train (and was PO'd ) and I recall crossing over the tracks at one of the stations inland BEFORE the Bay (Howards or Hammels..not sure) - and would have had to go OUT the exit gate and get a new token
to get thru an entry turnstile to get an inbound train (I wanted to cut the ride short of the Rockaway branches due to saving some trip time to Rockaway and back to pursue other riding venues) and could not free-passage over the tracks. I was so PO'd that I went back to the original outbound platform and waited for the next outbound Rock train and wasted my time doing the round trip out and back inbound on the same train. I thought of crossing the tracks at the surface level near-the bay station but there was a transit cop standing around and...well-
I waited for the train outbound. The whole double fare soured me - it was probably double-fared to help with costs of purchase of and rebuilding the line in the mid 1950's. My episode happened about
1961 or so. I felt bad for people who lived out in the Rockaways and commuted regularly and got stuck with the double fare during those times - especially
the Rockaway Playland visitors who got stuck with a double fare while Coney Island visitors had a one train-one fare ride each way to and from Coney.
Probably didnt help the Playland business for those who took the IND from the City rather than drove by car the the Playland Amusement Park and beaches.
Thanks again Steve and other posters for refreshing my memories of this little "sour fare point" for me after 40 years! However the fare was recinded as Paul's Third Rail Publications posted - so that WAS a fare reduction of some type re: the original Posting thread---of sorts.
How did they collect the fair back then?
Paul - dont you remember when WE were young - the extra fare the coductor used to collect on the IND Rockaway line past a certain point
What do you mean, when we were young? :o)
That fare, and its deletion, were chronicled in The Third Rail 26 Years Ago ("Rockaways Get a Break"). I remember the first time I rode the line, not long after it opened. As my (R9? R10?) clacked across the bay (talk about a duck out of water) I wondered at what point the conductor would come around to collect my extra 15 cents, like the extra nickel on the Q44. But it never happened ... you went through an exit turnstile in the Rockaways to pay the extra fare. If you didn't leave the station, the ride to and from the Rockaways was no extra charge.
The only time I ever paid the extra fare (in my recollection) was when I purposely rode from one part of the Rockaways to another, just to see how it worked--i.e., did you end up paying THREE fares (two to board, one to get off)? The answer: when you got on you paid two tokens, and requested a transfer or ticket (forget which). When you got off in the Rockaways, you handed in the ticket and were let out for "free."
What was the name of that poor dude who never got off the MTA? (If you're old enough, you'll know what I'm talking about).
Charlie. (Folk song from the sixties)
Charlie. (Folk song from the sixties)
Actually, it was an election song for a mayoral candidate in the late 40's. The Kingston Trio recorded it in the late 50' and it became a hit.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
You said "transit fares" and "go down" in the same sentence without "not" in between. Remember: All bridges in and around NYC have long since been paid for, yet for the most part they all have tolls. Why? Immense spending requires huge budgets. Therefore, once they have your money, they never give it back.
Dan
All bridges in and around NYC have long since been paid for, yet for the most part they all have tolls.
Tolls on the City's East River Bridges were eliminated during the Gaynor Administration (1910-1913). The bonds on the Manhattan and Queensboro Bridges were not retired until the 1950's.
And the currently tolled bridges still need to be maintained, policed, etc.
NYCTA express bus fare was lowered from $4 to $3 when buses became equipped with MetroCard fareboxes.
Staten Island Ferry fare was lowered from $.50 to $0.
You beat me to it...
I predict AirTrain will be the next NYC area fare decrease (nobody will be riding at $5 a trip, it will be lowered to whatever the current express bus fare will be).
There used to be a 2.5 cent surcharge on the Delaware River Bridge train (now PATCO over the Ben Franklin Bridge). A PTC token and a DRPA token (two for a nickel) were needed to enter on the Camden side, and if my long-term memory is holding up better than short-term, the DRPA token was neded to exit in Camden. When PTC was running serious deficits, the DRPA gave their token revenue to PTC. When the 2.5 cent token was discontinued, chances are that it coincided with a PTC fare increase, thus not resulting in a fare decrease. This is just a guess.
Bridge train in PATCO Lindenwold yard
PATCO train on Ben Franklin Bridge
After the PA took over the H&M, Newark fare was reduced from 40c to 30c.
SIRT had fare structure like a commuter road. The fare south of Clifton was 20c or 25c, south of Great Kills was 35c (IIRC) at the same time the subway fare was 15c. Now it's the same as subway fare or lower (like zero--does zero count as a fare decrease?).
Today I took another Amtrak trip from Meriden to Philly (stay tuned for my trip report) and I was pleased to say that it gave me some clousure on a long lasting relationship. The relationship I am talking about is with the Amtrak F40-PH. When mytrain 145 pulled into Meriden I saw on the head end FOUR, count 'em FOUR locomotives. the front were 2 F40' being transported back from Springfield or Boston and two of them were P42 Genisis locomotives, the wave of the future. For all I know this mught have been the very last train to run on the inland route with F40 as all the diesels in the ew Hven engine pit were P42's. Alas, although my F40's were running I do not think they were generating amperage (conductor hinted at that) and I was subjected to the full effect of "8 and Wait" (dear Goodness they were slow). In fact they were slower than a train headed by 2 F40's alone. Acceleration was path-e-tech. i also learned that whenever you used to see 2 F40's runnning one was powering while the other was providing HEP. Those 20 year old, 3 khp locomotives sure did have some nice preformance. So hats off to you F40's. You gave me 20 years of fun (and fast) times. Enjoy your retirement.
>>>Enjoy your retirement<<<
Me personally, I wouldn't enjoy being sent to an abandoned siding to sit and wait for the scrappers torch, in the meantime being vandalized and cannabalized as I watch newer, faster, and better looking trains perform the duties I used to and BETTER. Some retirement. But hey, at least they won't have to do that AND be drowned.
The F40's are either being sold (a few have already gone to Panama) or turned into Cabbage cars.
When the first F40s were being retired after their stint with the failing UP/SP they were being sent back to Amtrak and turned into glorified slugs. Are these "Cabbage Cars?"
A Cabbage Car is an F40 with the prime mover removed and the space used for baggage (complete w/ a side door). The cab is left as is and it canfunction as a leading control cab. I am not sure if HEP equipment is lift in place.
The HEP equipment on an F40 consists of an AR15 HEP alternator which is shafted directly off the 645. Any Baggage modification of an F40 would require removal of the prime mover, rendering the AR15 useless so the AR15 went too.
/*I was subjected to the full effect of "8 and Wait" (dear Goodness they were
slow). In fact they were slower than a train headed by 2 F40's alone.*/
Oh yeah, GE units are slow, aren't they? Part of it is the over optimistic gearing of those units (110 Vs the F-40's 103, IIRC)
/* Acceleration was path-e-tech.*/
Oh, they get much worse. Wait till they stop doubleheading them.
/*Those 20 year old, 3 khp locomotives sure did have some nice preformance.*/
Oh yeah, it helps to have youer prime mover at a fairly high speed when you start out. Ironically, GE was the ones who brought shaft drive HEP to the masses. I've heard that F-M invented it.
From what I've heard, GEs have a reputation for bad acceleration. Add DC traction to the mix, high gearing, and heavy equipment, you're screwed. It's amazing amtrak even bought them, but they did....
I don't know Acrobat Reader that well, and I can't get the Subway line schedule .pdf's to print page by page; rather than fit-to-the-page (wicked tiny), or the right size but just the center of the page....
Any tips?
Thanx, Dave
I am just going to wait until the TA makes the timetables available to the public.
The .pdf files are only 2 pages long. To print it accurately, you need two pieces of paper that measure 8.5" wide x 22" long for each separate schedule (or one piece that gets printed front and back).
I think it was rude of the MTA to have so much of its site in .pdf format. What about those of us who can't decode .pdf (such as WebTV users)? And WHY did they feel the need to put line service notices and diversions in .pdf as well?
Because pdf is a convenient way to store exact replicas of printed documents in a way that many different computers and operating systems can recognize, down load and print out.
I would blame WebTV for not providing support for Acrobat.
Besides, since PDF is vector based, one can download a high resolution image without spending so much time doing so.
[Besides, since PDF is vector based, one can download a high resolution image without spending so much time doing so. ]
Unless, of course it's a raster image, like few scanned documents at MTA's site.
Arti
Try asking the people at Adobe, the software makers of Adobe Acrobat, which is used to read pdf format documents. Go to this web page:
http://www.adobe.com and post them your questions.
The PDFs on MTA's site are not made from printed documents, they are the files that are used to make the printed documents. They are most definitely not scans.
True, and therein lies the problem.
The map, schedules, and everything else the TA produces, are custom-sized to be printed and then folded. Most people at home have printers that will take either letter or legal paper. The documents should be reformatted to fit one of those sizes, even if it means multiple pages.
John
BTW: NJ Transit’s new site commits the same sin.
RIGHT! That's what I'm looking for! The documents (except the B/D) are all 8.5" wide, I'd just like to split them horizontally into two pages, so they are of readable size.
I really miss the train by train schedules they had a couple of years ago....
I'm with you here.
PDF is a good format for transporting printed or printable documents. It's a pretty poor format for communicating simple, brief announcements, like "the 1 is running express from 72 to 42 this weekend" (it is, FWIW). I realize that the TA already has to produce the PDF files, but converting the information to plain HTML manually would take under a half hour a week of minimum-wage work -- and if that's too expensive, the process could be automated.
What you need to do is use the Print picture Button in the PDF window, not the higher Print button in the main window. Then you can choose, "Fit to one page" and it automatically prints it portrait or landscape whichever produces the largest output; you don't have to choose.
What you need to do is use the Print picture Button in the PDF window, not the higher Print button in the main window. Then you can choose, "Fit to one page" and it automatically prints it portrait or landscape whichever produces the largest output; you don't have to choose.
any info on drug tests??? i've never used drugs, but im deathly afraid of needles. do they draw blood?
thanx
Are you referring to a test for illegal drugs? That is usually a urine sample, looking for both traces of illegal drugs, as well as their metabolites (break-down products).
Sometimes legal drugs can result in a positive test. For example, if your doctor prescribed for you a cough syrup with codeine, a urine test would be positive for morphine, a metabolite. This would not be a problem, as long as you showed your employer a prescription, a letter from your doctor, or the pill bottle from the pharmacy.
ok...thanx...a little urine i can give up. lol
Just a reminder to all who are interested.
There will be a field trip over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge on this Sunday 7/23.
We will meet between 10:00 AM and 10:30 AM at the south end of the 57th ST/7th Av station (N,Q,R,W) near the dispatchers office.
At 10:30 we will board a Q train and take it over the MB to Pacific Street. There we will change for a W train and take it down to Stillwell Av. After lunch (Nathan's, of course) we will get on a NB Q train to Canal St. From there we will walk over to the Manhattan Bridge and walk along the new pedestrian path on the south side (how far we walk will be determined when we get there).
Of course, the itinerary can change of something interesting pops up.
I know some asked if we could do it at 11:00 AM but I felt that since it will probably be a warm day the trains could get a bit crowded with beach goers. That is why I thought we should go a bit on the early side. But if you miss us you can probably catch up with us down at Coney island.
Hope to see you there.
Allan
I'm gonna try and make this one, it's just too tempting to pass up. Looks like I will be riding the NYC subway for 4 consecutive days (today, Saturday, Sunday, Monday). There's definately alot of activity going on!!! This weekend (and next week) will be a railfan's dream. But I must emphasize the closure of my beloved 6th ave dash. I'm sure gonna miss it! Also got two new July 2001 maps (with the V error on it).
Call me crazy but I'm getting all hyped up about the chaos that will greet us come Sunday!! :-)
I think you mean Sunday July 22 (not 23). I can make it. Interestingly, because of a G.O., the Q may start from Times Square this Sunday (the R needs the express tracks at 57 St because it's running via 63 St) but I think we should still meet at 57 St as originally planned.
You are right Sundday is 7/22.
The G.O. involving the R is going to make things interesting. (like I said the itinerary can change as things pop up).
We will still meet at 57th St
I'll be backing and forthing on the W on Sunday with time off between 1124 and 1207.
I just might be there...gray shirt with madsoul graffiti on it...Light blue hat (yankees) and dark green shorts...Cya there!(hopefully!)
Yup, I will be there, see previous message for what I will be wearing, a MTA vest might accomadate that...Not sure yet though about the vest, anyways...I'll have to depart on the NB Q to canal at Kings Highway...Oh boy, Nathans, yum....:-) Cya there!
Q46, if you dare, join me!
Well after my exhausting LI Bus experience today, plus planning on railfanning Monday I can't make the trip later this Sunday. In order for me to be there by 10:30am I'd have to catch the first N21 bus at 7:30am, that's a bit too early for me.
Plus with the way the buses have been another problem and I'm really gonna lose it. My first time riding the new routes will be this Monday. Maybe we can plan another trip later this week, when the Q express will be running and the W in Manhattan. Maybe sometime on Thursday, but nothing has been planned yet. Also it's gonna be in the upper 80s and humid tomorrow, so for those of you who walk the Manhattan bridge it's gonna be pretty uncomfortable.
I just better rest Sunday, as I'll need every ounce of energy getting through the confusion Monday. Frankly though I'm not worried, whatever problems happen on the subway aren't nearly as annoying as those POS LI Buses.
Well three other Subtalkers met up with me at 3pm at the 21st Queensbridge station for the last day of "Q" on 6th avenue.
We left around 3:10pm, and noticed that there was that "no windstorming" sticker near the front of the car. It basically shows someone holding onto a pole going horizontal. I have no idea what "windstorming" means, but my guess is speeding.
The ride on the Q went pretty well. Even though there was Hippo D in front of us after 34th. The dash still managed to be pretty fast until we had to slow for the block of timers before W4th. New signs are up in some places. The ride across the bridge was slow as usual, but this will be my last Q ride on the northside. The D finally got enough ahead so the Prospect Park tunnels were pretty fast. This T/O was definately enjoying this run. We passed TWO lumbering D trains on the Brighton express. We got off at Sheepshead Bay and got a D train to Stillwell. While on the D I noticewd something very weird on one of the front signs on one of the R40 cars. A blue "K". I showed it to everyone. Would've definely been nice to have a picture. Got to Stillwell and transfered to a B train, after all this will be the last of the B in Brooklyn for awhile. We got on a train that we thought would leave first, but it was announced the otherone would leave. I had a little tumble leaving the R68, for some unknown reason. Just a minor scrape from it that's all. The floors were very slippery. The "lumpiness" didn't help either, it seems R68's could use some new floors. The B ride was very slow on the west end line. Lots of the old "dwarf" signals are out, due to the signal upgrade.
Speed picked up once we got to 4th ave express. Across the bridge was slow, almost 10 minutes from Pacific to Grand. I wonder if it'll be any faster when it becomes the W. All in all a great time, sure glad I had some company to enjoy my last Q train through the dash. Well even though the dash is gone my handle stays, in memory of it.
Also rode an R32 N from 34th to Queensboro Plaza. We did 55mph going through the 60th street tube. That is FAST!
At Queensboro Plaza I got off said goodbye to the last subtalker to remain, danilam (forgive me if I spelled your handle wrong)and took a 7 local to 46th and Bliss. I wanted to go to Wendy's and knowing how they've abandoned Flushing and all I made this extra stop. Actually it's pretty close to the station at 46th, a few blocks. Pretty nice area too (is it considered Woodside?). IMHO a better place than Flushing, with a much better (shorter) commute. Even though 46th is only a local stop it's so close it doesn't matter, plus locals are always emptier than expresses.
Going back from there to FlushinG i got lucky and got a 7X across the platform at Woodside. Also earlier in the day I picked up two July maps at the Transit Museum store at GCT.
I'm going to try and make the last day of the 6th Avenue dash tomorrow. Besides, the way my college education is going, I may not even be in NYC when the north side of the bridge reopens.
I believe the neighborhood around 46/Bliss is known as Sunnyside.
CG
Thanks for the report
I also enjoyed the trip
After i got off at Grand, i backtracked to 9 Av, to get the tickets for the MOD special. Unfortunately person in charge of tickets works from 7:30 AM until 3:00 PM (got the info from the guard at the entrance.
Maybe I will pick them up on Wednesday
Then got back on the B to 36th and swithched to N to Cortland.
Then as usual for me PATH to Newark and NJT (express this time) to South Amboy
Here it is. If you want to be on the last train over the A/B tracks in revenue service, you need to be on the 00:07 D Stillwell. This train will be followed by 4 light R-46 cars which will be used for the Grand Street Shuttle. Once they cross the bridge, the tracks are closed. Now, if my wife'll just let me out of the house......
I was told it would be the 2353 D Stillwell. That's the last run of the Sat. schedule, and the next departure would be apart of the Sunday work program, and thus the beginning of the new pick. (It was the pick office that told me this). Of course, if there is a supplement, it could be changed.
Also, what is the last southbound train, in case it is after the last northbound?
It must be a supplement then because I got the info from the Gen. Supt. in charge of the closing. I don't know about the last southbound across the bridge but I suspect it'll be before the subject train.
But the 0007 from Stillwell could be the last Saturday PM crew who start & finish from Bedford Park.......Just a thought.......
I just came back from a trip where I got a bunch of WMATA Metrorail images. Go to www.trainweb.org/nyrail and click the WMATA Metrorail link. If someone knows about old diesel switchers, please tell me what the diesels that the Metro uses are. I have photos of them on the page above. They look to be either modified-clearance GE SL110's or some aALCo product.
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Nice pictures. I enjoy them very much!
Chaohwa
Interestingly, when you connect with the page, Trainweb.org promptly delivers a "404-Not Found" message. I could still click on the WMATA link in the frame and see the pics, though.
The car that appears to be a work motor or stored/scrapped is one of the Rohr cars that was involved in the wreck that occured that same time the airliner crashed into the Potomac at the 14th Street bridge. It may be used as a work motor.
One of the Washington Metro experts on this board should be able to give more detail.
I notice there are hardly any GO's this weekend. Most trains are running normal. Do you think it's because of the service change? Maybe, they want to treat us right until we get used to it. I hope the diversions from hell don't come back next weekend. Especially next Sunday. I have to be at 59th Street a 9:30 for the Nostalgia Train.
That's what they're supposed to be doing, but it seems they will still go through with the R 63rd St. GO which will cause the new Q to be cut back to 34th or 42nd.
And I think they'll still be running the "L" in two sections this weekend.
wayne
Saturday only 7am to 8pm. Next weekend it is back to all weekensd from Fri Late night to Monmday at 5am
BTW, for those who haven't ridden the L yet when it's on this GO, it uses the K tracks and stops at the J platform at Eastern Parkway.
I don't know why they bother with the shuttle bus, except for passengers to the actual stations skipped. The L should continue nonstop to Myrtle and, if there's some way to do this cleanly, reverse up the M (so the M and the eastern L would be using the same trains). Through L passengers would transfer once at Wyckoff-Myrtle and wouldn't have to put up with a bus.
NJ TRANSIT FINALLY HAS A NEW WEBSITE. SO FAR IT LOOKS GOOD. I WILL REPORT MORE AS I USE IT
SORRY
WWW.NJTRANSIT.COM
The trip planning feature is quite problematical ... I tried entering a simple trip from New York Penn Station to Newark Penn Station without success. Maybe I'm missing something.
I'm glad to know that I am not the only one finding the site difficult to navigate. I just tried a simple trip from Newark Penn Station to Raritan and, as far as I could figure out, the system demands an actual address, not something as simple as a station name. I also was unable to find a previous, quite valuable feature-- maps of station locations.
I realize it is probably in the test stages, but it keeps crahsing Netscape 4.77
The trip planning feature is quite problematical ... I tried entering a simple trip from New York Penn Station to Newark Penn Station without success. Maybe I'm missing something.
It's www.njtransit.org
I AM HAVING PROBLEMS ALSO ( ITS NJTRANSIT.COM) I THINK 2 YEARS AGO IT WAS OWNED BY SOMEONE ELSE AND THEY BROUGHT IT. IM AT THAT ADDRESS NOW. ITS VERY SLOW WITH THE TRIP PLANNER. I WOULD IMAGINE THEY ARE TESTING IT TO ADVERTISE IT ON MONDAY OR NEXT MONTH LOL
NJ Transit is a private corporation that happens to be owned by the State of New Jersey.
And since when have government agencies been .org?
Try it, see for yourself. It only takes 3 seconds. NJT is most definitly not for profit so therefore it is an .org
Hey loos better than the old site. Besides the old site looked fake.
The old site looks fake because that was a virtual image, not based on an actual photo screen.
I've noticed it too.
Railfan Pete.
This may have been discussed within the numerous messages about the new maps. If it has, I apologize.
I picked up a new map today at the Transit Museum shop in GCT and made a couple observations:
The diamond Q's are indicated along the entire Q line instead of only on the Brighton Beach Line where one is local and the other is express, such as with the #6 and #7 trains.
The yellow line from the bridge and the yellow line from the tunnel do not merge at DeKalb and subsequently there are two separate yellow lines along 4th Avenue.
I also read here that this map had a lot more errors, including a 'V' listed at Roosevelt Ave (it begins in November, right?)
I guess an updated and corrected version will have to be published, especially now that the M service has been changed.
A question about peak service on the 6: Do all trains terminate at Pelham Park, or do some trains (I would assume the peak direction locals) terminate at E177, and the peak direction expresses terminate at Pelham Park?
During weekdays, all Bronx locals terminate at 177-Parkchester. All Bronx expresses terminate at Pelham Bay Park (in a nutshell).
According to the Car Service notice issued to RTO locations, the J and M lines will be running short trains during off hours on weekdays and all day on weekends.
J line: First 4 car train Mon-Fri leaves Parsons at 9:13 pm, last 4 car train at 3:28 am. 4 car trains to run all day on weekends.
M line: To run 4 car trains for late evening and weekend shuttles between Metropolitan Av and Bway-Myrtle Av.
All of this info is subject to change by the J/M/Z Line Superintendent.
The Shuttle between 21 St-Queensbridge and Bway-Lafayette will run 6 car R32's at all times.
Also heard through the grapevine today that when the R143's come in, OPTO will definitely be implemented on the M weekend shuttle. Stay tuned on this one.
Why does the TA run short trains? And how do they determine which lines to run short trains on?
I remember an experience I had on the 6 train in Dec of 1998. I was at 68th street on a Saturday afternoon, going downtown. For some reason, they were running short trains that weekend.
The result? You guessed it! SEVERE OVERCROWDING. A S/B train pulled in, and it was packed, and there was no sign of a train coming from 77th. I decided to wait anyway.
The conductor tried to close the doors a few times, but there was no way he was going to have an easy time. Finally, he shouted "stand clear of the closing doors", and a passenger squeezing in the doors right in front of the conductor yelled, "---- you! This is what happens when you run short trains on the Lexington Ave. line during the height of holiday season". A few people applauded, and the conductor looked so defeated.
I don't think I have seen a short 6 train since.
The TA cuts cars to reduce mileage and wear & tear on it's equipment. In turn, it greatly reduces maintenance costs.
I was one of the C/R's on the 6 when they were cutting to 7 cars (8 on redbirds). Not wise in my opinion.
But the "bonehead" award has to go to the 7 Line Superintendent back in 1997 when he decided to cut the trains to 6 cars starting at 10 pm. Not only were people being left out on the platforms with 20 minute headways, but people were actually riding on top of the train to escape the masses.
Fortunately, that didn't last long. After all, it's not wise to piss off the ridership on the 7 of all lines.
I take it, then, that J,M,Z ridership has not dropped recently, and this is primarily a response to rolling stock shortages.
It's not a shortage, it's just the TA saving costs. That and patronage on the Eastern Division really does not warrant 8 cars on weekends and late nights unless there is a weekend GO on the W'burg Bridge.
Will T/O's start getting more pay (i.e.- 10% increase on OPTO trains) for doing the work of two people?
As far as the M goes, I would just run it as a shuttle to Myrtle-Broadway during middays, as a way of saving money. Use the money saved to send more T/O's to a line that needs more trains, like the N, or the E, or R lines.
>>>>>>Will T/O's start getting more pay (i.e.- 10% increase on OPTO trains) for doing the work of two people?
Currently, OPTO Train Operators receive a $2 an hour differential which is equivalent to 8.43% of the regular hourly wage.
>>>>>>As far as the M goes, I would just run it as a shuttle to Myrtle-Broadway during middays, as a way of saving money.
Being frugal is one thing, that's being miserly. I think you'll find in a month or two that the money used for the extended M service is money well spent.
You don't ride the J/M lines much, eh. Cutting midday M's back to a shuttle is unfeasible.
I disagree.
Being a victim of the N train and Queens Blvd trains, my trips to the M during midday have been a pleasant change. I still go back to Ridgewood for different reasons, and can always count on the M to be empty between 10a-3p.
Either your exagerrating, or lying. The M isn't exactly packed, but it carries it's fair share of people all day long. Perhaps you're riding in the reverse peak direction too much.
Between the hours of about 10a-3p, how many people would you say there are on an 8-car M train between Myrtle/BDWY-Metro? 100? And this is going in either direction.
My point is, these people could easily get off at Myrtle-BDWY going to Manhattan, and catch an arriving J train, and not cause any overcrowding on the J.
Untrue. And this is coming from a regular J rider. Reducing the M to a shuttle would pack J trains to unacceptable levels.
What you call unacceptable by J train standards, is a joke to us who have to ride the 7 or Queens corridor trains.
Nothing can be done to help us on Queens Blvd (next week we'd have the V if it wasn't for those damned G riders). Why drag the J down with us?
LOL! I will bet anything that somehow, someway, a train will terminate at Queens Plaza on weekends.
Maybe I am wrong, but if the city runs G and R trains local in Queens on weekends, we'll have two locals serving all those stranded at local stations??????? NO WAY!!!! The nature of public transportation is to CUT CUT CUT away at service, and keep expenses down.
Broadway just got a huge boost in service. And 4th Avenue finally regained its dual midday locals.
I'm happy that we get two locals on weekends now. Thx to the G riders complaints, even though weekday service improvements were delayed, once we get two weekend locals they will never be able to get rid of that level of service.
They did on CPW.
Yes, but the C runs more frequently than the R. I've seen the R schedule, about a year ago I think it was every 16 minutes on Sundays.
Then R service has been significantly improved in the past year. According to the current schedule, it runs at the standard ten-minute headways most of the day on Sunday, as does the C. (Saturday R service is better than Saturday C service.)
Sunday R headways are at most 15 minutes from 7:22am until Queens service ends for the night at 10:55pm southbound, and from 8:18am until Queens service ends for the night at 12:18am northbound. (All times are at Continental.)
Incidentally, after Brooklyn shuttle service starts, there are still three trains to Queens beginning at Canal. If you're going from Bay Ridge to a local station in Queens, you have to take the R to the F/N/W to the R. That's just odd.
I'm confused! Two locals now? Where? South/West of Roosevelt maybe. But us who live between Continental and Roosevelt are not so fortunate.
On weekends, I sit on an F from 63rd/Lex going to Queens, making all local stops until Roosevelt, where magically, the train goes express, and many have to get off an suffer waiting for an R. Everyone is furious.
You mark my words. Somehow, some way, Queens Blvd will NOT have two locals on weekends.
Sometimes I feel like throwing some litter at the brake tripper of a passing F just so the next few would be forced to run local. Maybe come in one night and clamp the switches at Roosevelt straight, so the F has to run full express or full local, and not half-assed.
It's so annoying. But for the next few weeks, the R will run 63rd while the E and F go express. And I'll get off at 63rd/Lex, and they'll be 100 people getting off there asking for transfers to the 6.
And as soon as the 63rd tunnel goes into full service, some other GO will go into effect for the next 5 years to screw things up even worse.
The local stations west of Roosevelt don't have access to Queens Plaza or the 4/5/6 without backtracking. That's somewhat annoying. I think it would make more sense to, say, run the R express all the way to Jamaica Center and send the E local. That might be confusing, though. Does the shuttle bus run when the R runs via 63rd or only when Queens Plaza is disconnected from Court Square?
On Sunday, my C/R on the R repeatedly warned that there was no transfer to the 4/5/6 at Lex. Anyone who got off at Lex looking for the 4/5/6 was deaf.
O, tal vez, ellos no hablan ingles...oops, I mean maybe they don't speak English.
Whenever I am on a S/B 63rd tunnel train (R or F, it does not matter), I am GUARANTEED the opportunity to practice my Spanish because someone does not understand what is going on, so I get to translate. And it's a great way to meet chicks. They love it when a fair-skinned blue-eyed American lends his knowledge in their native language. Just last week, two gorgeous Columbian girls were on their way to see the World Trade Center, and invited me along after we spoke for about 10 mins together, but I was on my way to work, and missed out.
Joking aside, everyone seems confused, regardless of language preference. But something has to be done about those escalators always being out. Sometimes it's one, sometimes two. I confronted the guy giving out 6 train transfers about this, and he told me the passengers are the ones who turn them off, and a key is needed to turn the escalators back on again.
This past weekend, the R ran through 63rd, and I think a shuttle bus did run between Queensbridge and the G train, but I can't remember for sure. This weekend, the R is running 63rd again, and I'll be sure to make note of it.
Fair enough.
Yes I remember those short 6 trains. I think it was about 8 cars. I used to do volunteer work at Lenox Hill during the summer of 98 and remember that I had to run to the last car as I thought there was a station overrun.
What are the advantages of running short trains on a part-time basis? Isn't any savings in terms of power more than lost by the time involved in assembling and later uncoupling full-length rains?
I can see why a short train might make sense on a shuttle, but the benefits of alternating between the two are beyond me. Could someone clarify this?
In the NYC subway, subway car inspections are based on mileage, so the fewer miles a car runs, the less often it has to be inspected.
In addition, there is at least a perception that shorter trains are more secure than long trains during hours of light usage, on the theory that there is safety in numbers -- shorter trains mean more people in each car.
David
Makes sense on the J and M.
There are lots of pictures going way back on this site where there is a 3 or 4 car R16, or a 3 car Standard, running on these lines.
Acceptable for weekend or nightime service, but not during the weekdays, as was done in the mid-1990's.
I could have told you that one on the R143 for the Mary shuttle. But why cut to 4 cars on the weekends?
I know that there are OPTO signs next to the 10 car signs at Continental. Do you think OPTO will be coming to Queens Blvd. any time soon?
M is ideal for OPTO trains. Especially short trains during weekends and nights.
When do you expect the R-143's to arrive? And how long will it take to implement OPTO on the M if they indeed do so?
The G when it's extended to Continental Avenue on Saturdays/ Sundays next pick will be OPTO.
Even though I'm against OPTO, I do agree with your assessment on working OPTO on the M but for weekends only. To run it on the evenings creates logistics problems as far as crew assigning goes.
And as far as to when the 143's arrive, NOBODY has the answer to that yet. When the TA is satisfied with the testing results on the 8 cars that it already has, only then will the 143's start filtering their way in.
this is where all rail transit systems are going to,,, OPTO & " transverse cabs " & the "RAILFAN-STORM-VIEW-WINDOW"
is gone forever !!!!!.........................................................
It's a shame that the railfan windows will one day be gone. I credit them with cultivating an entire generation of future T/O's and conductors.
I have loved railfanning ever since I was a kid, and the accessiblity I had to the front window only increased my love for subways.
I may not be on the T/O list today had I not been so exposed to the profession I hope to obtain one day.
yes thats right just go to cities like washington d.c. & atlanta & not only do they run short cheap trains during the weekend
& off peak hours but no railfan window as well ( like ridin' amtrak ) !!!
This is not middays, right?
2. Where are the cut out J cars kept? ENY?
>>>>>This is not middays, right?
Nope, not on middays.
>>>>>Where are the cut out J cars kept? ENY?
Correct.
Short trains on the J/M have been the rule on paper for quite a long time. In reality, they have been running long trains 24/7. It costs money to hire the extra switchmen needed to accomplish short trains (contrary to whatever the TA says, RTO's budgets are more important to them than running short trains to promote customer safety), and zman and other TA t/o's know full well that the screw office does not cover the existing switching jobs as it is. Currently, the M only has tracks 1 to 6 at Fresh Pond Yard availiable for use as per a G.O. for track rehab in the yard, so there isn't any space for the extra layups right now. The orders of the line sup't supercedes "the length of train" car assignments.
I was thinking that both interests could be served if the last four cars of the trains were closed during the off hours, RR style (lights out, storm doors locked). No extra switchmen and customer safety. But most riders would not understand.
Too bad subway riders aren't as smart as RR riders (in general).
The did that on the A train in the late seventies sout of eAST nEW yORK.
Hmmm. I boarded a D (yes, D) train this afternoon at 59th with the first car out of commission (I don't know what the problem was, but the only person in the car -- a TA worker -- kept opening and closing various panels). That caused slight problems since there was a large crowd waiting by the first car, and there was no indication that the doors there weren't going to open until the T/O stuck his head out and pointed back. Then the C/R tried to close the doors on me as much of the crowd was still trying to cram into the second car.
I have never experienced anything like this since the graffiti days.
NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!
Running 4 car J trains during the week is completely unacceptable! These trains were run before, and they ran packed, not to mention those who either missed trains alltogether or delayed trains as they were caught waiting at the wrong end of the station.
Weekends and nights are fine, but not during the week. This must be stopped.
Whoops!
Disreguard my previous rant. Midday trains won't be cut, so the plans to shorten trains makes more sense. I was prepared to personally picket Metrotech to prevent the cutting of midday J trains in half. Hey, if people could force the G train into meaningless full Queens Blvd. line service on weekends after the V starts running, then anything could happen.
What about 6 car J's midday, which was done prior to Chrystie, or is it not worth the effort ?
That takes even more work than 4 cars. 4 car trains can be attained by simply taking half the trains out of service and splitting the remaining trains in half.
While it feels fairly strange for me to accuse the Straphangers Campaign of making the NYCT seem better than it actually is, I am wondering if that helps explain why the 7 was rated one of the least crowded lines.
I am thinking that they based the statistics on people going in both the peak and anti-peak direction, not just the peak direction. And of course, the anti-peak direction is much less crowded. I would also guess that the 7 has less crowding in the anti-peak direction, because it does not have a very long run in Manhattan that could be heavily populated either way, whereas other thru-lines have such a volume. If the 7 has to run extremely frequent service to keep up headways in the peak direction, they have to turn them back, right? And when they turn them back, they still have to run at frequent headways, so I would imagine that anti-peak trains on the 7 are not very crowded.
But this logic does not work for the L, which the Straphangers Campaign rated one of the most crowded.
The 7 is highly over-rated in my opinion. It is the most crowded and dirty subway line in the system. But it's also one of the quickest and most frequent.
I am thinking that they based the statistics on people going in both the peak and anti-peak direction, not just the peak direction.
The methodology is explained in detail on their site:
D. Chance of getting a seat
We developed a formula to calculate the chance of being able to get a seat at the most crowded point on each line. First, we identified each line’s "instance of greatest crowding" using New York City Transit’s 2000 Weekday Cordon Count. We did this by isolating the most crowded 15-minute interval for each line, at the most crowded point of the route listed. Then we divided the number of seats on cars in a line by the number of passengers at that 15-minute interval. For example, the 2 line was at its most crowded point at 72nd Street in Manhattan, heading downtown between 5:30 and 5:45 p.m. on the day the count was taken; the average number of passengers counted was 144.0 per car. Cars on the 2 line are of the class R-33 G.E., a 51-foot A division car with 40 seats. Thus the ratio of the number of seats to the total number of passengers per car would be 40/144, or 28%. This figure, 28%, represents the chance that a rider will be able to get a seat on a train at the 2 line’s most crowded point, during the most crowded 15-minute weekday rush hour interval. (Source: New York City Transit Rapid Transit Loading Guidelines, November 5, 2000; and "Year 2000 Subway—By Route Analyzed by 15 Minute Intervals," Supplement to Year 2000 Weekday Cordon Count, June 2001. In cases where more than one car class was used on a line, we evaluated crowding based on the seating guidelines for the predominant type of car used on the line.)
See Stephen Baumann's post. Also, note the following:
"I would also guess that the 7 has less crowding in the anti-peak direction, because it does not have a very long run in Manhattan that could be heavily populated either way, whereas other thru-lines have such a volume"
Two of the 7's three Manhattan stops are major transfer points to other heavily used lines, and the route is in the heart of midtown, so the length of its run is not really relevant.
I hopped on a D in midtown Friday night towards the Bronx, and it ran express on the local up CPW.....does anyone know why?
That's not that unusual. I would worry if it were to run local on the express track . . .
Heh. Have the geese "walk the plank?" :)
There must have been a work train on the express tracks, so the tower put the D train on the local tracks to go around it.
I was just struck by the juxtaposition of these two signs at Stillwell.
At least the TA in their new schedules give proper due to the names "Brighton" on the Q/Q scheds and "West End" on the W.
That's a great picture.
A keeper. 50 years of Stillwell Ave. history are portrayed in it before the whole complex gets bulldozed shortly.
I hope that sign to the right makes it's way to the Transit Museum soon. I would hate to think of it laying in a garbage file somewhere.
(Of course my apt would be better).
I hear (from who...?) that sign may be preserved and reused in the "new" station.
If so, that brings up one of those itchy preservation questions. Do you rehang it in its current ratty condition, or repaint it "like new" including restoring the CULVER wording? Of course, signs like this were often repainted--even the BMT LINES painted signs that were on many stations were repainted form time to time. But if they repainted it, is it still the same sign, or a new sign on an old piece of wood?
The sign is an artifact, it should go directely to Boerem Place, as it is.
The Transit Museum is way better than destruction, but I always prefer to see things preserved "in their natural habitat" so to speak.
But it really is useless today as a helpful sign. A museum is an appropriate place for it to go to.
But it really is useless today as a helpful sign. A museum is an appropriate place for it to go to.
Except arguably for the 1954 (and later modifications) of "AND IND..." the sign is contemporaneous. All the lines mentioned still exist and run to Coney Island. And the names are in use. Check out the new Q/Q and W timetables.
The letters don't describe the lines, they describe the services which, as we have seen, are as emphemeral as the shifting shoreline...
Gad, I'm a poet! :)
LOL.
Unfortunatley, today's commuters use the letter/number route designations to denote which line they need to use. Just last week, I had to inform a shocked N line rider from Brooklyn that his line was actually called the "Sea Beach". This, after 20 YEARS of daily use!
The names Brighton, West End, Culver and Sea Beach are slowly returning. They are on the R-32/38 side roll signs and are on station signs too.
Those names also appear on some newscasts, but occasionally.'
Bill "Newkirk"
I think in the past decade, the MTA figured out that if a passenger getting on the Sixth Ave. line in Manhattan who is not familiar with the system but is trying to go to someplace in South Brookyln was simply told to "Take the (name your line) train going to Coney Island" they could get a wee bit confused with the B, D and F all terminating in the same place and the Q coming pretty close. Restoring the old names gave the lines a little differentiation, which will hold true now that the Broadway line has the same situation with the N, Q and W trains.
That sign will not make it to the Transit Museum because it wil be restored and hang proudly in the new terminal.
The original facade with the "BMT Lines" in tiles was taken down and that too will be restored and be part of the new front facade.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ordinarily, I'm not in favor of pilferage of MTA signs while they're still in service...
...but I'm wondering if somebody can confiscate this sign in order to preserve it.
Because the MTA will surely destroy or discard it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That station tends to be a hangout for cops I notice, so you'd either have to be very fast or very insane.
6476-80 and 6611-15 are in service as of today.
6616-25 which are on the property, are running in test mode.
-Stef
6611-15 is the first Bom R-142 to have artwork in its interior.
Are you sure, what kind of artwork. I could have sworn I was on one of those cars recently and I didn't notice anything.
the same kind of art work that is on the Kawasaki R-142A's. the cars with the artwork will be in service in the next week or two. i saw it on tuesday 7/17/01 while talking to the T.O. that afternoon. unfortunately i didn't have my camera. it is 6611-20 that has the artwork. look out around the first week of august
also. if you see one on the platform anywhere on the 2, look throught the window. you'll see it
I heard the artwork would appear much later and be a picture of a barge of Redbirds miles off the coast of Delaware !!
Bill "Newkirk"
There are only 16 hours left before the bridge filp. Is there enough publicity for the passengers? Is there any map in every single stations? Are the subtalkers ready to give help and see the confusion and chaos? Are the passengers ready to adopt this change? Is everything settle down now? Are the T/Os, S/As and C/Rs ready to answer massive of question asked by the mass? There are a lot more questions to ask, but I won't be here to see this simply because I'm not a New Yorker.
I'm ready tomorrow to offer people help (When I'm on the train) and every channel has been telling the news. Tonight it will be the Main Story and in the Papers tomorrow it will make the front page. This is big and affecting thousands of people. So the media will be over it.
I hope the ordinary commuters will remember the changes. If not, haven knows what will happen.
>>. Is there enough publicity for the passengers? <<
It is been in Newspapers, on the radio news and on TV news.
There are signs in every subway station in the system. There are more brochures than you can shake a stick (or schtick) at. The signs on the platforms have been changed (or just about). And whether some of them are wrong (like at Dekalb)if people don't know about it then they have been in a coma for the past several weeks and they havve no one to blame but themselves if they get lost.
>>Is there any map in every single stations?<<
Every station has at least one wall map (at the token booth and on the platform). I can not state that all have been updated but I am sure that has been done at the station that are most affected by the changes.
>> Are the subtalkers ready to give help and see the confusion and chaos?<<
You had better believe it. Between Subtalkers and all the Transit personnel that are going to be out there in force, all bases will be covered.
>> Are the passengers ready to adopt this change?< But as any New Yorker knows, after a few days of grumbling, everyone will accept and go with the flow. NYers are the most adaptable people in the world.
>> Is everything settle down now? Are the T/Os, S/As and C/Rs ready to answer massive of question asked by the mass? <<
Since I do not work for the TA, I won't answer for the people who work there. I am sure some with be overwhelmed and have some problems while others will be cool, calm and in their element in dealing with the madness that will ensue (and it will).
>>There are a lot more questions to ask, but I won't be here to see this simply because I'm not a New Yorker.<<
You got questions, post them here. You are looking at probably the biggest collection of NYC transit knowledge gathered in one place.
If you ask me this whole bridge flip is a piece of cake to understand, well at least when compared to understanding LI Bus.
When, and under what circumstances, were LIRR push pull cars used on the SIRT and...
Does the new Ball Park station use new trackage, or employ old North Shore Line tracks?
www.forgotten-ny.com
the ballpark station employs the old North Shore Line. The track continues after the ballpark, but a few 100 feet, which was snug harbor station is all washed away. As you continue though down as you see in the forgotten NY website, all those stations are still there, and in arlington yard, which the fence is open, all the switches still work! amazing..lol and of course if you follow the track, it goes right into NJ over the arthur kill.
>>>The track continues after the ballpark, but a few
100 feet, which was snug harbor station is all washed away. As you continue though down as you see in
the forgotten NY website, all those stations are still there, and in arlington yard, which the fence is open,
all the switches still work! amazing..lol and of course if you follow the track, it goes right into NJ over the
arthur kill. <<<<
The North Shore Line shoud really be revived. Much of the infrastructure of the tracks and stations are still in place. Port Richmond has experienced a mild renaissance, and the area west of the Bayonne Bridge could use a boost. A revived North Shore Branch could be a big help. And while we're at it, how about hooking it up to an NJT line in Jersey?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm afraid redoing the North Shore Line (great idea!) runs into the plans to revive freight service and therefore the good ol' FRA.
The MTA managed to shake the ex-SIRT loose from FRA status (it was a Class I RR, after all) and I don't think they'll go for anything that threatens that.
I'd like to see Hudson-Bergen and SIRT merged. (Dream on)
About the only chance would be if the cross-harbor tunnel uses the old B&O/CSX freight bridge to get to SI, and from there to a tunnel under the Narrows to the NY&A tracks. The connection between the CSX bridge and the tunnel could be run underneath the remaining North Short SIRT right-of-way and under Richmond Terrace to at least St. George for the tunnel connection, while the SIRT line could be rebuilt (as part of the federally-funded project) above the freight lines. That would keep the two seperated and avoid the FRA problem, while cutting the underwater tunnel to the shortest possible distance, which should save some $$ compared to a direct Bayonne-to-Brooklyn line.
From a transit point of view, reviving North Shore SIRT service has everything going for it--a largely intact right-of-way, a real need, the possibility of adding service to other rail-starved communities, possibly the lowest chance of NIMBY opposition in the City, prbably the most added mileage for the buck since the Rockaways.
But...
You really think the City will put even relatively minor bucks into a line in the most socially and politically isolated part of the City?
I was reminded of Staten Island's lowly status recently when I read a published comment that "Queens was the last borough to get major subway service".
Rodney Dangerfield, move over.
The city would put money into it if it isn't their money (as is the case with most mass transit projects), and while Congress gave only a pittance to the LIRR-Grand Central connection and nothing at all to the Second Ave. subway, they did agree to fully fund plans for the Cross Harbor Tunnel, mainly because it will help other areas besides New York City itself.
Because of that, the city is in effect playing with the house's money on this one -- if the project is funded for X amount of federal dollars, and if the city can figure out a way to get it build via Staten Island and the Narrows for X-minus-Y dollars (if it's cheaper than a straight Brooklyn-to-Bayonne route) and are able to use the North Shore ROW between the CSX bridge and St. George, then they could use the leftover money to help fund rebuilding the North Shore line.
Admittedly, the odds are long for this one, but there is money on the table for a rail project that could involve Staten Island, and it would be nice if they were able to squeeze an extra mass transit project out of what would basically be a freight rail system.
The city would put money into it if it isn't their money (as is the case with most mass transit projects), and while Congress gave only a pittance to the LIRR-Grand Central connection and nothing at all to the Second Ave. subway, they did agree to fully fund plans for the Cross Harbor Tunnel, mainly because it will help other areas besides New York City itself.
Let's not get too excited here. Funding plans for the Cross Harbor Tunnel isn't the same as funding the tunnel itself. Surely the city would be expected to throw at least some money into the project.
Full funding isn't there, but because the Cross Harbor Rail line would allow freight serivce via the NY&A and the Hell's Gate bridge diretly from southern New England through to the mid-Atlantic states, the odds of New York City/State actually having some allies on the project from other states increases.
Both the city and state will have to put up some money to get the project, but add to that the lowered cost of rail shipment of imported goods from an expanded Brooklyn supercargo ship port to states even outside the northeast and mid-Atlantic, and the odds for funding the project further increases -- so long as Nadler and others can peddle it as a "not just for New York" project, it has a chance.
Ah, but there are those truckers and possibly even NS & CSX that very much enjoy the profits of having large terminals in NJ, or the added revenue of dragging a train on a 300 mile round trip to selkirk just to cross the river...
Even if it were to happen, where would they put a freight yard, at least on LI, to handle some of the freight? the freight side of sunnyside is going to LIRR's GCT access for MU storage, Holban yard is long gone, etc etc... there's not a lot of yard capacity for freight out there on LI, and a lot of Nimbys.
Just like anything else, there's gunna be those for it, and those against it.
result: 'paralysis by analysis'.
winner: anyone who makes money off the status quo.
loser: citzens who pay tolls and taxes to repair roads that are beat up by the trucks, and breathe worse air due to the pollution. and people wonder why every other kid in this town is born with asthema?
*grunt*
-Joe
>>>From a transit point of view, reviving North Shore SIRT service has everything going for it--a largely intact
right-of-way, a real need, the possibility of adding service to other rail-starved communities, possibly the
lowest chance of NIMBY opposition in the City<<<
This is punctuated by the recent decision of a private carrier to cancel express bus service from Mariners Harbor to midtown. It used the Bayonne Bridge and Lincoln Tunnel. Mariners Harborers now have to use the MTA express buses, which crawl over the Verrazano and BQE.
The MTA has ruled out running express buses to Bayonne, where a transfer could be made to HBLR's new trolley. The HBLR would be all for it--more fares--but the MTA is not about making life easy for commuters, it's about the bottom line; apparently it would cost them a lot to enter NJ. How, I don't know.
That's why you need a revived SIRT there...
...but the MTA's bottom line says it'll never be done. Message to Mariners Harborers? Buy a car and choke midtown even more with exhaust fumes and make more noise pollution with honking horns.
www.forgotten-ny.com
This is punctuated by the recent decision of a private carrier to cancel express bus service from Mariners Harbor to midtown. It used the Bayonne Bridge and Lincoln Tunnel. Mariners Harborers now have to use the MTA express buses, which crawl over the Verrazano and BQE.
As it was a private carrier that cancelled the service, ridership presumably wasn't sufficient to make the run a cost-effective propostion. It doesn't sound as if the MTA was at fault in any way.
No, the private carrier had the ridership. It was a revenge tactic for not getting the subsidized routes from the city. Their service sucked in any case. Any day, your bus might not be there because they needed it for a charter run.
-Hank
Other than a common passenger terminal, the North and South (currently operating lines) tracks could be kept separate, could they not? Thus, even if a revived North Shoreline comes under FRA jurisdiction (requiring RR type rolling stock, perhaps refurbished M-1's or borrowed PATH cars) the current SIRT should not.
Good idea. I guess the lines could be kept separate--maybe they could even deal with it by having the the North Shore operated by NJT or Metro North or something.
I don't know how all the FRA rules work, but I understand they sometimes get upset if there is so much as a common switch connecting FRA and non-FRA operations.
Obviously the FRA would be the final arbiter on something like this.
Biggest stickler about FRA rules (and why PATH wants out) is that each car with a traction motor is considered a Locomotive and must be inspected as such very frequently. This is a killer on service and cost of inspections.
The last stop can be South Ave, where they would have to build a station. Past South Ave is the yard itself, and the tracks could be kept seperate. There are no current plans to send freight any further than Howland Hook and Travis.
-Hank
When, and under what circumstances, were LIRR push pull cars used on the SIRT?
Defining push-pulls as trains in which a locomotive on one end provides motive power in both directions and controls in one direction, and a non-powered cab car provides controls in the other direction:
Unless there's something I've never heard of, push-pulls of any kind were never used on the SIRT, but surplus LIRR electric cars were. These were used as supplementary equipment just before the delivery of the R44s that are there now.
In fact, I don't know whether the former push-pulls on the LIRR were "true" push-pulls like the new double- (triple?) deckers, in that the "push" control cars were locomotives ("power packs") which didn't provide traction.
"Unless there's something I've never heard of, push-pulls of any kind were never used on the SIRT, but surplus LIRR electric cars were. These were used as supplementary equipment just before the delivery of the R44s that are there now."
So the SIRT tracks don't have any curves or platform clearances that would cause the 85' LIRR cars problems.
I don't know all my old LIRR classes. My impression was that the LIRR cars that were used were not as long as 85'.
The only place I can think of where there might have been clearance problems would have been on some tracks at St. George, but they would have avoided that by just not using those tracks.
The SIRT considered both Standards and Triplexes as supplemental equipment in the mid-'60s (i.e., before state takeover was a given)--in fact, some Standards were set aside, but, as we know, this never came to fruition (*sob*).
Yes, the equipment used was in fact 85'. They were the same cars that were used on the LIRR engine-hauled trains until the C-3s took over.
see:
These 1955-6 Pullman Standards were 81 feet long, class MP72.
I have a copy of the blueprints. They were also 13'7" tall.
2505, 2509, 25??, 2517, and 2646 went to Staten Island for the 72-73 winter via Selkirk. That was also the Dec-Jan that the LIRR was on strike and so were the only LIRR cars in service for that period.
Only the 1963 Worlds Fair cars, class MP75 (never saw Staten Island), were 85 feet long and 13' 0" tall, the same as arch roof MP54's.
All LIRR push-pull coaches (172 of them) were at one time EMU's.
They were gradually removed from electric service from April 1971 through October 1973, and converted to push pull service at budget permitted from May 1971 through Mar 1979. The last 8 converted were placed on the 4:34pm Hunterspoint to Port Jeff, replacing the last of the ex-B&M American Flyer coaches. They were 85 feet long too, calss P74.
Thats why the MTA/TA should use some M1 CARS to replace the R44'S operating over there.
Let me get this straight-
The SIR should use LIRR M1s to replace the R44 they currwently use simply because they fit?
The dumbing down continues. This is why I take long breaks from this place.
-Hank
PS-Note to the world that I used 'BREAKS' as in seperation, not 'BRAKES' as in for stopping.
love you too HANK.
What's so dumb about it ? The mainline B division is short of equipment, the R143 is not sufficient fleet expansion, and 60 out of 770 M1's can be cheery-picked for survival. They should also pick another 60 to send to Metro North to replace the 1100's more quickly. At least there would be a common spare parts maintenance stream.
Only some of the M-1s are to go soon. Others are to be rehabbed to squeeze out a few more years.
The M-1's perform rather well, despite their age. Kudos to the maintenance and repair crews.
Where is the car shortage on the SIR?
Why a new car type?
Who is going to train te maintainers?
Who is supply the parts?
R44's are working fine last time I was there and they were meeting all equipment demands of the passanger schedule, why the expense of moving M1's and all of the above when the LIRR needs the cars in the first place.
You miss the point. Move the R44's to car-short TA, move the M-1's to SIR when they get replaced by M7's.
Thanks, Joe. You explained it better than I did.
I got it. We replace cars that are perfect for the job they do with the 'creme de la crap' from the crapboxes that LIRR commuters bitch about.
Makes sense to me. Seems it wasn't that long ago certain posters were decrying the conditions of the LIRR MU fleet. Why would anyone else want to suffer with those?
-Hank
>>>I got it. We replace cars that are perfect for the job they do with the 'creme de la crap' from the crapboxes
that LIRR commuters bitch about.
Makes sense to me. Seems it wasn't that long ago certain posters were decrying the conditions of the
LIRR MU fleet. Why would anyone else want to suffer with those? <<<
I wouldn't mind the M1's on the SIRT, or the BMT/IND for that matter. Soft seats! The 3-across seat arrangement would be impractical during rush hours though. They really need a cleaning though...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The 3-across seat arrangement would be impractical during rush hours though.
3-2 seating worked great on the standards.
<'creme de la crap' from the crapboxes that LIRR commuters >
What they bitch about is from poor maintenance and is easily remedial, and can be made just as good as the MN ones.
Kevin,
The cars you inquired about were MP-72 MU electric cars that later became the "push-pull" coaches for the now retired diesel fleet.
The MP-72s were borrowed when the R-44s were late in coming to SIRTOA and the old 1925 Standard Steel cars were failing fast. I never rode them in Staten Island, but I do remember a "Voice of The People" letter in the Daily News by a rider who thought the MP-72s were comfortable and air conditioned. The voicer couldn't understand why the LIRR commuters were complaining about them. Compared to the old BMT Standard lookalikes, this was luxury.
I have a SIRwy employee timetable that still lists as a restriction 85' pasenger cars from operating 100' east of bumper blocks at St.George tracks 5,6 & 9 !! Use of 85' passenger cars is also explained in the paragrapgh below.
I was also told that during WWII, troop trains from New Jersey using the Arlington Branch were routed through the wye at St.George. Ending up at a spur around Stapleton (?). The troops boarded various destroyers and/or aircraft carriers for deployment overseas. The troop trains were said to be B & O equipment, possibly steam powered. There seems to be no photos documenting this because this was wartime and you just didn't photograph anything military.
Bill "Newkirk"
Looking at these LIRR cars now it's hard to imagine them remaining in service, in the condition they deteriorated to, until 1997...
But I miss them.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What do you guys think of this?
For years, Boeing and other aerospace contractors sponsored college contests, where they challenged engineering students to design a supersonic business jet or some other vehicle, as good p.r. and as a way of encouraging engineering student enrollment.
Suppose the Transit Authority picked a station which is currently not ADA-compliant, and challenged NY area students to produce an architectural plan, a mock draft EIS and the like, to rebuild that station. Beyond good transit p.r., could that also be a cost-saver - e.g. if the contest-winning plan were good enough, it could be reviewed and modified as needed by the TA's contracted architect/engineers, and then implemented. Presumably the portion of the work done by the students (with their professors consulting) would not have to be done from scratch by the consulting firm, but only reviewed, saving $$$ in that phase. Plus, it would be good for community involvement.
The prize for the winning plan could be: 1)Psychobucks from knowing this is how the station will really look 2) College scholarship money, say $5,000 first prize in college tuition money 3) Other prizes??
Am I unrealistic here? Does the TA do that already? If I recall correctly, there have been interns working at the TA, right?
Your idea sounds interesting, but the trick is to convince the administrative level crowd of the MTA to look into it. I would even run it past the governor's office - who knows? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Go for it.
I might just do that.
The Daily News has a story today on Sen. Clinton showing up for an event on Long Island 90 minutes late because she was stuck in traffic on the LIE, and her comments on what should be done about it, which are on the depth and weightiness level of that Barbie doll they programmed to say "Math is Tough" about 10 years ago.
I think Schumer's on his own as far as getting any more mass transit funds for the metropolitian area through the Senate...
No LIE: Hil's a Victim of Traffic
I saw the story.
Hillary is as capable of learning as anyone else. How she applies that remains to be seen. Also, as a "freshman" Senator she will need the support of others to get things done.
But the statement does sound like a close cousin to George H.W. Bush's remarks about supermarket scanners back in the 1992 election -- an elected official who's been out of touch too long and doesn't recognize something commonly known to all of the voters.
While I have no doubt Hillary is smart and can do well discussing topics she is versed in, like health care (or the trending patterns of New Hampshire Democratic presidential primary voters, for example), she does not "think on her feet" very well. I'm sure she's been given details about NYC mass transit needs by her staffers, both while as a candidate and as a Senator over the last two years, but given it or other topic or political situation she obviously has little or no consuming intrest in, she has shown an inability, unlike her husband, to call up those facts and speak on the topic off-the-cuff, which in a way makes her a lot like George W. Bush (which is pretty ironic in itself), who's extemporainius remarks tend to be muddled -- Hillary doesn't invent new words or new grammer, but her comments on what to do about things she's not focused on tend to fall into the "well, duh!" category.
That's one of the reasons why Bill Clinton was a great politician, his ability to speak lucidly on things that he might not give a damn about, but that a lot of other voters did, and it's a quality his wife lacks at this time. That's why after a 90 minute delay on the LIE -- when she and her staff should have known there would be questions about New York transportation problems -- Hillary ended up doing a near-Dan Quayle verbal imitation. Monorails? Jeez! Why didn't she add she was going back to DC to fight with all her energy for the installation of matter transporters between New York City and Long Island?
It's up to Hillary to prove you're wrong and she's up to it.
While I have no doubt Hillary is smart and can do well discussing topics she is versed in, like health care (or the trending patterns of New Hampshire Democratic presidential primary voters, for example), she does not "think on her feet" very well. I'm sure she's been given details about NYC mass transit needs by her staffers, both while as a candidate and as a Senator over the last two years, but given it or other topic or political situation she obviously has little or no consuming intrest in, she has shown an inability, unlike her husband, to call up those facts and speak on the topic off-the-cuff, which in a way makes her a lot like George W. Bush (which is pretty ironic in itself), who's extemporainius remarks tend to be muddled -- Hillary doesn't invent new words or new grammer, but her comments on what to do about things she's not focused on tend to fall into the "well, duh!" category.
All that's true, I'm sure, but an additional problem is that Hillary's ultra-liberal ideological views blind her on issues that don't fit within the traditional liberal-conservative spectrum. More money for social services? She's all for it. Expansion of affirmative action? Count her in. More lenient treatment for criminals? Turn them loose! But when it comes to something like transit, which cuts across ideological lines, she doesn't know what to do.
Very well put. I agree completely.
>>> But when it comes to something like transit, which cuts across ideological lines, she doesn't know what to do. <<<
Better public transit is always a liberal Democratic priority. The fact that she did not have a fully formed detailed proposal to solve L.I. transportation problems when she was making a short stop on the way to a holiday weekend is not surprising.
Tom
That's the "thinking on your feet" problem -- or in this case, thinking while sitting in a car on the LIE for 90 minutes. IMHO, she and/or her staff come across as either naive for not realizing the delay would result in questioning, or sloppy/lazy/dumb for not coming up with a better answer than what she gave. Her husband, given the same situation, could have BSed for 15 minutes on the subject of regional mass transit.
But on the positive side, there is nothing like a real-life demonstration of the problem to get the point across that more mass transit is needed in the area. We'll just have to see if the incident made much of an impression on the Senator...
But the statement does sound like a close cousin to George H.W. Bush's remarks about supermarket scanners back in the 1992 election -- an elected official who's been out of touch too long and doesn't recognize something commonly known to all of the voters.
While I have no doubt Hillary is smart and can do well discussing topics she is versed in, like health care (or the trending patterns of New Hampshire Democratic presidential primary voters, for example), she does not "think on her feet" very well. I'm sure she's been given details about NYC mass transit needs by her staffers, both while as a candidate and as a Senator over the last two years, but given it or other topic or political situation she obviously has little or no consuming intrest in, she has shown an inability, unlike her husband, to call up those facts and speak on the topic off-the-cuff, which in a way makes her a lot like George W. Bush (which is pretty ironic in itself), who's extemporainius remarks tend to be muddled -- Hillary doesn't invent new words or new grammer, but her comments on what to do about things she's not focused on tend to fall into the "well, duh!" category.
That's one of the reasons why Bill Clinton was a great politician, his ability to speak lucidly on things that he might not give a damn about, but that a lot of other voters did, and it's a quality his wife lacks at this time. That's why after a 90 minute delay on the LIE -- when she and her staff should have known there would be questions about New York transportation problems -- Hillary ended up doing a near-Dan Quayle verbal imitation. Monorails? Jeez! Why didn't she add she was going back to DC to fight with all her energy for the installation of matter transporters between New York City and Long Island?
[Monorails? Jeez! ]
What's wrong with monorails. Monorail advocacy site claims they are the cheapest.
Arti
They're not practical because there's nothing off-the shelf about them, switching them is difficult, and other than those who advocate them, everyone thinks of them as theme-park rides.
-Hank
Well, their will be an grand new example in Las Vegas in 2003. And also another example in Seattle if the advocates succeed. In my opinion, it is hard to switch them, but it is worth to try if it is just a simple straight line. Back to the main point, do you think the connection between Long Island and New Jersey is pretty bad? There is no expressways to connect between them in Manhattan, causing huge traffic jams. Can you think anyway to solve the problem?
Moses thought to build a highway from JFK, accross Brooklyn (notice how Conduit Blvd looks like a service road in the "City Line" part of Brooklyn), including the Willy B, over Canal Street, to the Holland Tunnel. I even have a 1967 map showing the Queens portions of the proposed highway. I think the Nassau Expwy, built in the late 80s, is a remant of that plan.
This plan would have destroyed Chinatown, Tribeca, and SoHo, and connecitng highway along West Broadway would have taken the Village with it. I'm glad little to none of this occurred.
There is a monorail operating in downtown Jacksonville, Florida. It only operates on the weekdays on 2.5 route miles of guideway. It is made by Bombardier who will build one based on the Jacksonville design in Las Vegas if everything goes according to plan.
[They're not practical because there's nothing off-the shelf about them, switching them is difficult, and other than those who advocate them, everyone thinks of them as theme-park rides. ]
http://www.monorails.org/
There's very little off-the-shelf about any alternatives either. The advantage of off-the-shelf is cost factor, according the above referenced advocacy site, monorails are cheaper, so it's a moot point.
Arti
You want a 35-50 mile long monorail from Long Island into Manhattan? Running shorter ones to the LIRR connections or to the Jamaica/Hillside/Flushing subway stops doesn't solve anything, all the tunnels into Manhattan for those lines are at capacity.
Now if she had her husband's political accumen, she would have gone on about the $10 million just approved for the LIRR Grand Central connection, and how more money is needed for that to add capacity into Manhattan, or how a Second Ave. subway line with a downtown Brooklyn connection could incrase the viability of the Flatbush Ave. LIRR station for Manhattan-bound commuters. The first one she should have thought of; the second would have been a tough one, but Bill probably could have scanned the mental database fast enough to throw in a sentence or two on the topic.
Wow. Has senator bimbo done anything for NY state besides trying to ban cockfighting? We voted for her over Lazio for THIS?
Come on. "We need to build more public transportation and a monorail" You'd think she'd at least know somerthing about LI (largest commuter rail system in the US). There's lots of nagging problems with the LIRR right now that if fixed, could really bump capacity and get ridership. We don't need monorails, or the NY DOT's pathetic bus rapid transit system on the southern state.
Add a third track to hicksville, electrify Port Jeff, add a 2nd track on Ronkonkoma, electrify to Pathauge, and get things moving faster.
And the freaking LIR clusterf**k construction's getting annoying too. It was fine until they decided to tear it up...
Think being stuck in traffic is bad Senator, how about waiting an hour for a crowded, hot bus? How about not getting any information from bus drivers? How about seeing breakdowns everyday? Ride LI Bus, see how bad it is. After you do, you'll kiss the LIE.
Her Highness never mentioned transit issues even once during the campaign...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Don't blame me, I voted for Rick Lazio.
Ewww ... but if you're an LIRR fan, I hear rumors he's a ticket taker on the Speonk. :)
Actually, he's been on TV the in the last week or so saying what a nice guy Gary Condit was when they were both members of the House of Representatives ... Obviously, Rick needs to develop a better BS detector :-)
Well, don't wanna develop a political thread here, but it was Rick's to lose and he made a complete ass of himself. Hillary won because he shot himself - over and over again with increasing bore size. I'll leave it lay there.
Yes, you have a point, and I agree with you to an extent. It was not so much I liked Lazio, but more that I absolutely abhor Hillary. I said it before and I'll say it again -- that bitch has one thing on her mind -- the White House -- and I don't care who disagrees. On a lighter note, I commute via Metro-North so I guess I'll miss Rick on the LIRR. Hey, win some, lose some.
I was just kidding about the LIRR thing - don't want to be accused of spreading heinous rumors ... but he did have that kinda face ... years away from school car. :)
Oh I know. I was just playing into your humor.
Here is the Saturday New York Daily News article on the erroneous DeKalb Ave signs.
OK< Who Blabbed???? LOL
I'm very confused about the new W train - If this is supposed to be an express train in Astoria, why did they change all the signs at the Broadway N train station to include the W? My understanding was that the W train was not stopping at Broadway.
It is only an express in one direction at a time (AM to Queensboro Plaza, PM from Queensboro Plaza). There are only 3 tracks. So while one will operate express, the other headed in the opposite direction will be local. Hence the W on the sign at Broadway.
Once the folks at 30th Ave and Bway figure out their rush hour service has been halved (the N now runs every 10 mins. instead of 5), there will be a big outcry. I predict the W will become all local all the time by October.
Are you serious???? N every 5 mins instead of 10???? God. I lived in Astoria for almost 2 years, and rode the N every single day. I boarded at Ditmars, and can honestly tell you that this is a big mistake if what you're saying is true.
I always noticed that 30th Ave. and Broadway were heavy stations. But 36th has a significant ridership as well, and many times, they can't even get on the train by the time it arrives at their station.
But here is my point. I always observed that when an N train was late by about 2 or 3 minutes, it meant more people at each station, thus less room when the train arrived, thus the train being set back even later. With N trains arriving at 10 mins intervals, there will be serious problems.
It's true. N trains have had their service decreased from every 6-7 minutes to every 10 minutes.
Remember that the W trains will take a lot of the people from Ditmars Blvd and Astoria Blvd. So that'll cut off some of the overcrowding.
If the overcrowding becomes an issue, then the W may operate local. I'm sure if it does that the TA will hear about it big time.
True, W trains will pick up the Ditmars and Astoria Blvd crowd. But all N trains will pick up Ditmars, Astoria, AND all the extra people being dumped on the locals, because some trains are going express.
We'll have to see what happens.
Will TA officials be on the road this week to observe the effects of all the service changes first-hand, or will they watch from their offices?
>>>>>>>Will TA officials be on the road this week to observe the effects of all the service changes first-hand, or will they watch from their offices?
Well they're definitely keeping an eye out on Astoria to see if any bottle-necking results from having two services end at Ditmars. They'll probably stumble upon the overcrowding situation if any.
Well they're definitely keeping an eye out on Astoria to see if any bottle-necking results from having two services end at Ditmars
I can't believe they're worried about bottle-necking from having two services terminate at Ditmars-- This is nothing new - before 1967 the T and QT terminated there together. If you go back before 1940 you had the BMT Shuttle, IRT Second Avenue, and IRT Steinway Tunnel trains. What's wrong with the TA today - can't walk and chew gum at the same time?
I totally agree with you.
I just don't see the sense in running the W Express. It is not going to save much, if any, time. And all Astoria line riders will benefit with the increase in service.
I don't see the bottleneck at Ditmars; there will be one at Queensboro in the AM.
Pre-Christie St. and the Queens connection that brought the BMT Broadway trains onto the IND Queens line, the rth Ave. local and Brighton local both terminated at Ditmars Blvd., if I remember correctly. They were able to do it then. Was their combined frequency lower than the combined N/W frequency starting on Monday?
Mike Rothenberg
I can't wait for that W express this Monday. Hahahaahaha.
W Express Broadway Line
Astoria Blvd 31st Street
Would you be saying this if your station was one of those local stations which is losing almost half its' rush hour service?
By the way, here's the average weekday ridership at Astoria Line stations in 1999:
Ditmars Boulevard: 14,323
Astoria Boulevard: 8,291
30th Avenue: 11,621
Broadway: 10,524
36th Avenue: 5,907
39th Avenue: 1,458
So, N and W trains will both serve the busiest station, Ditmars Boulevard, and the fourth busiest (of six), Astoria Boulevard, in the peak direction (N and W trains will serve all of the stations in the off-peak direction). Stations #2, #3, #5, and #6 will have only N service in the peak direction. Unfortunately, I don't have ridership breakdowns by direction and time, so I can't say what percentage of the riders in the AM peak, say, would have access to both N and W service.
David
Cleverly, the new schedule calls for each N train to leave Ditmars in AM rush approx. 3 minutes after each W, then there's a 7 minute wait after the N for the next W. This insures that more people will ride on each W at Ditmars and Astoria Blvds. than on the Ns -- which may alleviate the overcrowding on the Ns.
I think I might as well change my handle to the W Broadway Express instead of the N Broadway Local since I use the Astoria Blvd station.
Bye.....
N Broadway Line
W Broadway Express
Who knows now what the Sea Beach side of the N is going to look like with the service decrease and no supplemental service.
I find it quite laughable that the city will have to increase N service FROM Brooklyn after people become fed up with 10 minute rush hour headways.
Can somebody "in the know" describe how frequent the N will run during the rush hours along it's entire length?
According to the new schedule, the N out of Ditmars will run at ten-minute headways from 6:49am to 8:19. Shorter headways (8-9 minutes) will prevail until 9:53, when ten-minute service begins again. From 4:03pm until 6:43, headways are 8-10 minutes. Then they get longer.
Somehow, northbound service is even worse. Trains arriving at Ditmars after 5:25pm have headways of 10-12 minutes.
Your post has strengthened my position, which I posted here on SubTalk a few months ago after Astoria line "W" peak direction express service was announced, that the decrease of N line rush hour service to local stations will not be accepted by Astoria residents and that the "W" will have a suppelement schedule allowing it to make all local stops between QBPL and Astoria Blvd.
Good to know that some people are actually taking up the cause of the N train---my Sea Beach. Now if we can get the TA on the stick we might get something done. Like how about this---run an Sea Beach express to Coney Island for those traveling to see the first place Brooklyn Cyclones play. Has anybody seen them play this year? Who are their star players. I heard they were in first place a week ago.
Well if the TA can find a way to shaft the Sea Beach consider it done. I literally fume when I think of what they have done to my train. Someday I hope to see it an express again and traveling over the Manhattan Bridge, but I get very tired saying it. I'm sure so does everybody else. OK guys, get behind me. Tell the TA to keep their damn hands off the Sea Beach unless it is to pass them goodies.
Actually, I too have been doing my best for my beloved N...first, I want to point out that my N was virtually stripped of all of her R68's...I was noting all the R68 Q's that used to be N's (series 2776 to 2915)...they're more or less gone...about 60 R32's went to the 63rd Street S and whatever is left remains...I counted 6 distinct R40 car sets...that's too muc back ache...I HATE the R40's, railfan or not, they suck...acceleration or crawl...they suck...the N shloud consist of R32's and R68's and an R68A here and there....the Q can have `em...in addition, since they are cutting service on the N, it should have a model that seats more, that's not the R40 which seats at most 6 people per bench...
I have been a most helpful Sea Beach passenger...two years ago, a recod breaking 99% of the trains were clean according to the staphangers report...two years in a row, it was the cleanest train...
I myself take a little credit for that...I'm the person who points out to approachable people to pick up that newspaper and coffee cup...furthermore, if there's garbage on the floor, I'll kick it of the train (I don't need any of those statistics people finding garbage on the beloved N)....I'll pick up newspapers if I see any...
So, to all my fellow Sea Beach riders...please fax the superintendent of the N train and express your thoughts...
Sea Beach Fred, I recall mentioning that you liked the R68's on the N...please, write to the superintendent as well...his fax number is on the straphanger's website...
And to those Brighton riders who like the R40...write to your superintendent for the exclusive rights to the R40...
>>about 60 R32's went to the 63rd Street S and whatever is left remains<<
Are You Serious???!!!??? 60!!!! That's 10 trains!!!What are they running, 5 minute headways?!?!
The train assignemts that someone posted a while ago stated that 60 R32's were taken off the N fleet....
TEN whole Coney Island R32's have made it onto the E line, among them 3918-3601 3418-3863 I didn't get the rest
Ooooooohhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooo.
It may not be so bleak, Steve - from the sound of another post, these "N"s may have been replaced with Slants.
wayne
Well said fellow Sea Beach fanatic. Needless to say you have a buddy 3000 miles away. Keep up the good work. I might go even one better. I might actually call the person involved and say my piece. Anyway, keep up the good work. ABTW, why the 53? Does it have significance for you? It does for me. 1953 was the last year I rode the Triplex #4 Sea Beach. I didn't ride it in 1954 for some reason, and that year I moved west. When I came back to NY for the first time 20 years later the Triplexes were gone and so was the #4, given to that accident prone montrosity IRT line in the Bronx.
You state (wrongly) that "About 60 R32's went to the 63rd St. S......" Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!!!!!!!!! There are 4-six car R32's on that shuttle, that's 32 cars from CIYD, not 60 as you inaccurately stated........ Here are the consists: First the R46 on the Grand St. Shuttle: 5622/23/25/24 (from Jamaica of course). Eventhough there are 2 train operators assigned, there is one conductor. And the TSS's are making sure the conductor changes operating positions all the time. So instead of a train operator changing ends, the conductor has to try to close the door numerous times, change ends, and operate from the last car all the time!......As for the 21 St. to Bway Lafayette shuttle, the consists are: 3638/39, 3378/79, 3622/23. Next: 3599/98, 3675/74, 3741/3530. Next: 3408/09, 3926/27, 3825/24. Next: 3907/06, 3605/04, 3847/46.
Why does the Grand shuttle need a conductor at all? Let the T/O who isn't T/Oing operate the doors and make announcements.
Here is the problem: What happens if that R46 goes bad ordered and has to be removed from service? I'm not talking about when it is time for the trainset to go for inspection,shopped for a car with a dead motor or defective air conditioning, in which case prior arrangements for a swap would be made during the midnite hours. The replacement is in Jamaica Yard! So they would have to temporarily "steal" one of those R32 trainsets from 21 to Bway Lafayette shuttle. Now you need a conductor on the Grand St. shuttle in a hurry. You can't steal a conductor from the other shuttle since now you;ll need someone else to do his trips!
But a crew of two is all that's needed on a trainset of R-32's, too. Either designate one as the C/R and the other as the T/O (who will get a lot of exercise walking 360 feet every few minutes) or have each crew member shift up half a train length (180 feet) at each terminal, alternating roles. (The latter should take less time than what's done now, with the C/R walking a full 300 feet at each terminal, AIUI.)
The R40's aren't that bad... but that's only cuz my favorite car is a R40.. plus.. my name says it all :)
Damn, that's foolish. Express W service is now unacceptable if 10 minute headways on the N will be in effect.
YESSS!! Agreed. Speaking as an 'N' rider who will not actually ride rush-hour 'W' trains, I welcome them, because it will reduce crowding on my 'N' train. In fact, I saw the fruits of this 'W' service just this morning, since I had elbow room on the way to work (it's Monday). KEEP IT, PLEASE.
N trains are scheduled for 6 minute rush hour headways, as is the W. I don't see any loss of peak rush service at any Astoria local stop.
I am completely outraged at this loss in N service. For those of us getting on at 30th Ave, Broadway, 36th Ave, and 39th Ave, it is an insult. And it is an even BIGGER insult to those of us who are ALSO travelling downtown past Canal Street. The MTA needs to hear from us disgruntled riders.
And it's even worse for Sea Beach riders, who have no alternative. Astoria riders can take an N/W the wrong way to an express stop and backtrack on whatever comes first. Lower Manhattan riders also have the R, as well as a variety of services on other nearby lines. Sea Beach riders have nothing else; they won't be happy to learn that their service was cut because of additional service way up at the other end of the line!
I expect the TA will have to run supplemental N put-ins from City Hall(relaying out of the lower level) or even Chambers (coming out of the former south side bridge track leads), or will send the M via Sea Beach instead of West End (to Kings Highway or all the way to Stillwell). Passengers from Midtown to the Sea Beach will quickly learn to take a Q or W and transfer at DeKalb or 36th to an M or N rather than crowd onto the N and endure a longer ride.
And poor Fred will have a fit. (Just look at the bright side, Fred. If the M is moved to the Sea Beach, you still won't have service over the bridge but at least you'll have a variety of Manhattan service, something none of the other BMT lines in Brooklyn will feature.)
I can only imagine the confusion and crowding at Queensboro tomorrow during PM on the N/B platform. If anyone is up there tomorrow, let me know if I'm correct.
When was the last time there was revenue service on the Astoria Third track? What problems were there bakc then.
Is this a trial to see how LaGuardia Airport Service would run?
This is the first time in the history of the Astoria line
that there is regular scheduled revenue service over the middle
track. During the last iteration of the MB flip when the B's
were extended to Astoria, the middle track was still unsignalled.
One-way service is certainly a time-wasting pain to riders. Friday 7.20 I decided to ride part of the B-Brooklyn service. I got off at Ninth Avenue, found Manhattan-bound platforms roped off, and the next southbound was flats of empty garbage bins, powered by four motors. The following southbound picked up crowds of passengers at a few stations. The crowd traipsed downstairs at 62nd St to get an inbound Sea Beach. Of course, one had just left. Next came a Manhattan-bound B on the express track. Finally, an inbound slant N. A hold at 59th express track for no R. A crawl into 36th, but the B must have been a mile ahead. Speed to Union Street. Fortunately, a connection to a bridge-D at DeKalb. Has the MTA slogan changed to "Going away the other way"?
I thought it was "MTA - Going Nowhere Fast"
Update on the Baltimore Howard St. Tunnel Fire:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-trainfire.special
Anyone know when the MTA started to switch the white signage in subway stations to the current black signs? Thanks..........
The old white signs were originally designed to assist visually impaired passengers to identify the station. They started changing to the black signs in the 70's.
The white letters on a black background appear larger than the same size black letters on a white background. They used to have a demonstration of this years ago at the Transit Museum.
Peace,
ANDEE
If what I saw here about a newspaper article reporting that due to community pressure iw true, that the M will run off-hours to 9th Ave. due to the bridge flip and Grand St. not longer available to get to southern Brooklyn, this is a real waste of money. A shuttle from Bowery of Essex St. to Canal or Chambers St. would make for an easy connection to the Q/Q/W Canal St. platforms. Why isn't that adequate?
why run the M's to 9th Ave. when ridership during those periods doesn't warrant it?
Reminds me of the community pressure to rebuild the Franklin Ave. shuttle: what a waste of money. A bus connection would have been adequate. How many people use it? The money spent there would have been better spent on buying 30-40 subway cars. That would have made more sense, to me, since many more people would have benefitted, e.g., on the D/Q line, from the greater frequency that could have been created with additional trains made from those cars.
Mike Rothenberg
I would have rather seen the Franklin Ave. shuttle modified so that a connection was made between it and the Fulton Street lines - rail connection, that is. In case of a problem on the Manhattan Bridge, trains from Brighton could be routed to Manhattan via this conection and alleviate any congestion that would occur. The current configuration is better than what existed in the past - now there is a free transfer between the shuttle and the IRT at Franklin Ave. station, which did not exist before. At least if there is a problem say, on the Manhattan Bridge, commuters can use the shuttle to get to either an IRT connection or an IND ( Fulton St. line ) connection, and vice versa. As for the bridge, I would rather build two double tracked tunels and remove the trains from the bridge, so that travel would be faster and to a degree, safer.
The free transfer from the shuttle to the IRT is somewhat of an improvement, but there is already a free transfer to the IRT on the Brighton main line at Atlantic Ave. If there was a problem on the Manhattan Bridge, wrong-railing might be required to get the (now) Q/Q trains back to Prospect Park from Atlantic Ave., but at least it would involve only a single transfer. Shuttle stations are short, so people would crowd impossibly into two(?) car shuttles, then have to change again at Franklin Ave.
What would be a useful improvement would be cross-over switches on the Manhattan and Brooklyn tracks leading to the bridge, on both the north and south side sets of tracks. In the event of a bridge problem, this would allow Manhattan 6th Ave. and Broadway trains to reverse and use the appropriate tracks to go back uptown. Similarly, on the Brooklyn side, this would allow bridge-bound trains from the 4th Ave. and Brighton tracks to reverse (after discharging remaining passengers at DeKalb Ave.) to do the same, and return towards Coney Island. Such switches would give flexibility in limiting the extra number of trains that might be routed through the Montague St. tunnel. A pedestrian tunnel connection between the IND Jay St. and BMT Lawrence St. (?) stations is planned for the next round of improvements, according to the MTA web site so that would cover the BMT/IND transfers.
Your call for two 2-track tunnels to replace the bridge tracks is right on target. I'm with you there. What a waste of money over all these years, when four tunnel tracks could have been built in probably 1/4 the time - and probably for less money than was spent so far. Yes, it would give a faster and safer ride. And it would be a permanent fix.
Mike Rothenberg
I did read in Trains Magazine about various kinds of bridges, and it was state that suspension bridges are not suitable for rail traffic. the Manny B is a suspension bridge, yet it is being used for that purpose. Granted, there is no frieght railroad traffic on the Manny B, but I would prefer all rail traffic in tunnels rather than on bridges. One quick fix that was proposed was to tie in existing lines to the Rutgers St. tunnel, which is now being used only by the F line from Brooklyn to Manhattan. I would build new tunnels, completely replacing the bridge lines. A quick fix might be cheaper, but money spent now might save a lot more money later.
Curiosity-wise, what types of bridges did the article say *were* suitable for rail traffic?
And are any of them appropriate for crossing the East River?
Aesthetically, if not in cost, I still consider bridge crossings superior to tunnels for the subway, that spends so much time in holes in the ground anyway.
-West End Scott, rider on the yeller Dubya
Truss bridges, girders,and one or tow other types, but suspension bridges were definitely mentioned as not good for rail traffic. I do not think that some of those other types can be used to cross the East River, because of the heights required for ships and navigational difficulties. Tunnels do not pose such problems.
Manhattan Bridge & Williamsburg Bridge Tracks are owned/matained by NYCDOT NOT MTA.
Not quite.
The tracks, signals, etc. are NYCT's. The structures on which they sit (i.e. the actual bridges) are DOT's.
David
"Your call for two 2-track tunnels to replace the bridge tracks is right on target. I'm with you there. What a waste of money over all these years, when four tunnel tracks could have been built in probably 1/4 the time - and probably for less money than was spent so far. Yes, it would give a faster and safer ride. And it would be a permanent fix."
And those remaining tracks can be put on the center of the bridge.
N Broadway Line
"I would have rather seen the Franklin Ave. shuttle modified so that a connection was made between it and the Fulton Street lines - rail connection, that is. In case of a problem on the Manhattan Bridge, trains from Brighton could be routed to Manhattan via this conection and alleviate any congestion that would occur. The current configuration is better than what existed in the past - now there is a free transfer between the shuttle and the IRT at Franklin Ave. station, which did not exist before. At least if there is a problem say, on the Manhattan Bridge, commuters can use the shuttle to get to either an IRT connection or an IND ( Fulton St. line ) connection, and vice versa. As for the bridge, I would rather build two double tracked tunels and remove the trains from the bridge, so that travel would be faster and to a degree, safer."
The shuttle is good, however, if something ever happens to Manhattan Bridge service, this line is too inefficient to handle the rush hour crowds on the D/Q lines.
They should have made the stations longer; it could have accomodated at least 4 cars. BUT NO! they never considerate what would happen in the future. But at least the option still exist if travel patterns insist on it.
N Bway Line
Temporary wooden platform extensions would serve the purpose of receiving the Brighton main-line crush. The major problem is removal of the 2nd track north of Botanic Garden, thus, minimum 8 minute headways.
"I would rather have seen the Franklin Av. shuttle modified...." Here, here, I agree 100%. Provision for this connection should have been made years ago when the Fulton St. subway was built, but of course the IND was made to compete with existing service and not to provide more service to the citizens of the city. This connection should be considered seriously as it could up capacity of the southern division lines into Manhattan, without building an extra tunnel under the East River.
Exactly the point that I was making. You sometimes wish that the guys who make the plans ever consider some "what if" scenarios.
Even if the MB problem is alleviated completely, this connection would allow for increased southern division service.
Yes, the connection for the IRT trains at Botanic Garden Station is a vast improvement for the Franklin Shuttle. However, the configuration of single-track operation north of Botanic Garden was a serious mistake (most likely a short-sighted cost-saving feature). If one track has mechanical trouble up by Park Place or the terminal at Franklin/Fulton that would basically shut the line down.
Still the rebuild of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was not a wasted project, since the neighborhoods around the line are starting to turn 'upscale' ala Park Slope.
BMTman
Still the rebuild of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was not a wasted project, since the neighborhoods around the line are starting to turn 'upscale' ala Park Slope.
Very true. If the shuttle had been abandoned, for all we know the improvement of the neighborhoods might have been halted. That's why I consider the shuttle's renovation money well spent ... besides, it would be disgraceful if New York had the nation's only shrinking mass transit system.
Shame such forethought wasn't around in 1973 and 1975, when the Bronx 3rd Avenue EL and the Culver Shuttle EL were discarded.
Such lines whould have made nifty thru-services today.
>>>>>>>A shuttle from Bowery of Essex St. to Canal or Chambers St. would make for an easy connection to the Q/Q/W Canal St. platforms
Evidently, you haven't made a transfer at Canal Street lately. That transfer is the farthest thing from easy.
Just about the entire Chinese community wanted the M extension, so while it may seem a waste of money to you, it is a big sigh of relief for these people. IMO, the late night shuttle bus isn't necessary, but the extended M service is.
Here is the M schedule info:
from 0930 to 1530 it will run to 9th Ave(previously ran to Chambers). From 1530 until 2215 it will run to Bay Parkway. Last rtain to Bay Parkway will arrive there at 2215.
SOURCE: Poster at M stations.
The transfer from the SB J/M/Z to the Q/Q/W is easy: just go downstairs.
Anything involving the NB J/M/Z or the SB N/R is a real pain, though.
I'm sure that if this transfer was proposed and advertised, most Chinese residents would just get off the system at Canal St. This will probably happen anyway, as it takes forever to get from Dekalb to The Bowery via the M.
The M only takes about six minutes longer than the W from Canal to Pacific.
More like 10, not to mention the time you'd need to make the walking transfer at Canal to the J/M to get to the Bowery.
That's your opinion. The opinions of thousands of displaced commuters overwhelm your comments. Frankly, the majority rules, as in this case.
You are right that it's only my opinion. Assuming you are referring to the bridge flip, a ride to Canal St. would put Grand St. riders on the same trains they took to Brooklyn B->W, D->(Q), Q->). Regarding my shuttle comments, I bet there are more thousands of (soon-to-be) Q/Q riders who would have benefitted from some extra trains than the number of people who take the shuttle.
Just my opinion....
Mike Rothenberg
Restoration of midday M service is a boon to more than the residents near Grand St. Now, midday M riders coming over the Williamsburgh bridge have direct access to Fulton St. and Broad St., Montague St. gets a 33% service increase (especially to the heavily used Lawrence St. station), and 4th Ave local riders above 36th St. don't have to wait and watch train after train wizz pass them on the express tracks as they wait for the lumbering R.
This service should have NEVER been eliminated in 1995. A mistake is corrected. Praise the lord.
I thought the N runs local with the R during the midday hours, leaving the B on the express track?
N Bwy Line
No. The N runs express on 4th Ave all day long during the week.
Oh.. Ok. It must have changed recently.
W Bwy Express
Actually, it's been like that for a couple years now.
Oh, I think it has been so since 1995. I will go back home to check it out this evening.
Chaohwa
The N/M express/local swap was made at the same time N service was restored from 86th St to Coney Island in June 1994. I remeber the rhubarb this relativly minor service change caused.
Nope, it's been like this since Summer 1994.
Yep, I have the map that says it.
Remember all the whining people on 4th Ave did after this change was announced? Yeesh!
I wonder if the M and N hadn't swapped, and the M were eliminated in 1995, would we even have a 4th ave express other than the B at all?
The Franklin Shuttle was not a waste of money. Plenty of people used that line to get from the Q to C. Plus there is a transfer to the 2,3,4 at Botanic Gardens. High Schoolers use it to get from Bed-Stuy and ENY to the schools along the Franklin Shuttle and the Brighton. There is a hospital along the Franklin Shuttle(Park Pl) that warrants ridership. The only problem I have wwith the shuttle is that it is not two tracks the entire length and the platforms is not longer.
What is the shuttle ridership from MTA records? Couldn't be that much with the short trains.
According to the NY Times article I read, ridership has increased from something like 10,000/day (pre-rebuild) to approx. 15,000/day(last available figures). I know you'd like to get rid of it...but that's just you. If you were really interested in making your point, you'd ask what the turnstile revenues were/are for the stations served by the line. (I have no idea what those numbers are...)
I've never ridden it. But frankly, I think the MTA did the right thing (by everyone) by rebuilding it and keeping it in service. I see *plenty* of people scurrying off my D or Q (now Circle-Q/Diamond-Q) trains over to the waiting shuttle trains on my morning commute.
It's a useful line, but it wasn't restored properly. A single track thru Park Place and NO provisions for expansion to full 600' train service makes the rehab very restrictive.
A full restoration wouldhave been useful. Of course, the restoration was competing against other projects (and other projects were competing against it).
To put in perspective, though, the Franklin Shuttle would have shut down completely, and fairly soon, had something not been done about it.
True. I'm suprised someone didn't fall through the rotting wooden platform at the old Park Place station the last time I was in it (about 1991).
Chris, I think that wooden platform extenders could be put up easily, should there be a crisis situation (MB out, for example). The main problem is the single-track operation north of Botanic Garden, limiting headways to 8 min. I share Jailhouse Doc's opinion, that plans and provisions should be made to connect it with the (westbound) Fulton St. subway, as this would increase overall capacity on the southern division.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Hopefully no major disaster happens. I do not think that any of the proposed second system projects will ever get into reality, butI can still imagine how great they would have been.
"The Franklin Shuttle was not a waste of money. Plenty of people used that line to get from the Q to C. Plus there is a transfer to the 2,3,4 at Botanic Gardens. High Schoolers use it to get from Bed-Stuy and ENY to the schools along the Franklin Shuttle and the Brighton. There is a hospital along the Franklin Shuttle(Park Pl) that warrants ridership. The only problem I have wwith the shuttle is that it is not two tracks the entire length and the platforms is not longer"
I agree - but I'm grateful they redid it at all. As long as good headways can be maintained, it'll serve well enough.
"Reminds me of the community pressure to rebuild the Franklin Ave. shuttle: what a waste of money. A bus connection would have been adequate. How many people use it? The money spent there would have been better spent on buying 30-40 subway cars. That would have made more sense, to me, since many more people would have benefitted, e.g., on the D/Q line, from the greater frequency that could have been created with additional trains made from those cars."
A lot of people depend on that Shuttle, and and the neighborhood's recovery did too. I've seen a lot of off-the-cuff remarks about the Shuttle which bear no resemblance to reality, but does show a lot of ignorance about New York's neighborhoods and their relationship to the subway.
Oh well, what's one more...
The F.S. is a necessary rail line that just got its first capital investment since 1917, assuming they did something to it for Dual Contracts to support steel trains. Amortize what they spent over 80 years, and it is not a lot of money.
Bustitution NEVER regentrifies/revitalizes neighborhoods - look at the southern half of Myrtle Avenue.
>>Bustitution NEVER regentrifies/revitalizes neighborhoods - look at the southern half of Myrtle Avenue.<<
South?!? of where?!? Perhaps you didn't take notice, but the neighborhood that Myrtle av. runs through in it's 'south' is on the rise. This is because of the presence of MetroTech. Don't know how far south you meant though, because North of Ryerson (Ryerson is a few blocks south of Bedford/Frankiln avs.) Myrtle is still pretty crappy.
It would be better if a rehabbed Myrtle Ave el was still operational, running modern rolling stock. But the 1960's/1970's anti-el mania condemned it.
I'm pretty sure I understand the pros and cons of Els, re: their effect on surrounding areas, but my question is, Are there any hypothetical plans for new Els, maybe built in the style of monorails, that would eliminate the Cons and be an inexpensive way to greatly expand the Subway system through S. brooklyn and E. queens?
Maybe I'm being provincial and petty, but despite how ugly some parts of New Utrecht Avenue look because of it, i've always been glad that the West End was an El, if only for the views you get riding it.
-West End Scott, yeller Dubya rider
It isn't always a technical issue; it's also a political issue. Modern Els are pretty good: trackbeds are better, noise baffles are effective (check out Miami Metrorail, for example), etc. But NIMBYs are often not rational, and they do have influence. And there are places where streets have no room for an El. So subways, while expensive, often are best at dealing with political forces who will often kill an El no matter how cost-effective it is. In a democracy, pure cost-effectiveness is one important factor in rail expansion decisions, but it cannot be the only factor (nudge to my political opponent ChrisR27-R30 :o) ).
This is not always true, but it is often true.
Myrtle runs east/west, it makes no sense to consider that it goes north/south just because it intersects with a line that leaves the evil island going east (and the evil island isn't even aligned to north-south).
So what if its crappy.PEOPLE still live there. AND they make the best of it.So keep your comments to yourself,if you dont mind.
And Jamaica Ave (nudge to my nemesis from Bayside).
LOL.
The M to 9th uses a very underutilized connection. Granted, ridership is low between Manhattan and South Brooklyn, but you've overlooked something: the 4th ave local.
Before 1995, everything was kosher:
Rush hours:M/R
Middays:M/R
Evenings:N/R
Weekends:N/R
Nights:N
After 1995, things got screwed up:
Rush hours:M/R
Middays:R
Evenings:N/R
Weekends:N/R
Nights:N
I don't know about you, but I believe a line is not supposed to have better service on weekends than middays. Granted, most 4th ave local stops do not warrant two lines. But the one that does, 9 st, deserves it. It is the only direct connection between the Culver and the rest of the Brooklyn BMT without going to CI or Manhattan.
the new plan fixes this:
Rush hours:M/R
Middays:M/R
Evenings:M/N/R
Weekends:N/R
Nights:N
I agree with this assesment, except for one thing. Fourth Ave local ridership justifies 2 lines during the week, along it's entire length. If it was operationally feasible, the M should be run to Bay Ridge.
>>Reminds me of the community pressure to rebuild the Franklin Ave. shuttle: what a waste of money. A bus connection would have been adequate. How many people use it?<<
Funny you should ask that question. The NY Times reported a few months on this a few months ago. Ridership on the Shuttle has increased since the re-build. Before it was approximately 10,000 per day, now it's 15,000. I've been on a crowded shuttle train. At roughly 2pm.
>>The money spent there would have been better spent on buying 30-40 subway cars. That would have made more sense, to me, since many more people would have benefitted, e.g., on the D/Q line, from the greater frequency that could have been created with additional trains made from those cars.<<
I really don't think so. If more people realized that the shuttle was there, then the TA wouldn't need expanded service. How much do you think D/Q service can be expanded? While the D/Q were still on 6th av, they also were running with the B.
Further, after you get through the planning stages, and the drawing boards, the TA would have been able to get 20 cars or less. That's 2 trains. Not enough to affect the frequency of the far stretched D line. Not even worth it. But now, the TA has 5,000 more riders.
M service to 9th Ave. is a useful restoration of service unfairly eliminated in 1995. Good ideas always resurface.
Does anyone out there know of any other new proposed building projects BESIDES the Second Ave. subway, or the AIRTRAIN? I wrote another post about the Franklin Ave. shuttle, and that got me thinking, so what things are being proposed? I know that there is a lot of ADA compliance work being done at present, but what other projects are in the works. There has to be something.
1. Astoria Line extension to LaGuardia Airport
2. Flushing Line extension to Javits Center
3. LIRR access to Grand Central Terminal
4. Metro-North access to Penn Station
David
Add to that: PATH Extension to Newark Airport Rail Station- feasibility study now underway.
AirTrain is nearing completion; it is no longer in the "planned" category.
Is anyone out there advocating for the extension of the IRT Seventh Av line past Brooklyn College, to extend under Flatbush Av toward the ocean? If I recall correctly, that was under consideration in the 1960's by the Board of Estimate (correct me if I am wrong).
The M(C)TA's 1968 "Program for Action" did propose the extension of the Nostrand Avenue Line to (what was about to become) Kings Plaza via Flatbush Avenue. If memory serves, the 1969 NYC master plan proposed extending the line via Nostrand Avenue to Avenue W.
The current plan involves creating a small subway yard (5-6 tracks) alongside the Bay Ridge freight line (there's room along the right-of-way), just south of the Flatbush Avenue-Nostrand Avenue terminal.
David
They should build to extend down Flatbush -and- Nostrand. Of coures, they should be buildlng a lot of things...
What about some of the IND Second System Lines such as Utica Avenue,Worth st,Boston Road and ROOSEVELT line.? Worth street should be built,as it would help the lower Manhattan acess program under study by the TA/MTA at this time.
Well, there was talk many moons ago of connecting the Franklin Avenue Shuttle to I believe the Jamaica or Myrtle Ave lines, but none of that ever came about.
And of course there was also a proposal to connect the LIRR Atlantic Avenue branch to the Brighton Line via the Franklin Ave. Shuttle connection (this was back in the days when the BRT was still around -- somewhere prior to 1918).
BMTman
What about that center track at the Bedford-Nostrand Station on the G? It goes to two stub end tracks just north of the station. There is also an abandoned station complex at Broadway on the G line. Any hopes for that?
Anyone have the assignment list yet?
The statements that I heard and read indicated that the cost of extending M train operation to 9th Ave and the bus would be around $2 million/year. Simple estimates, based on FTA database information, indicate that actual operating costs to be much more.
M train extension.
Track mileage from Chambers St to 9th Ave is 6.62 miles, each way
There are 41 trains in each direction that terminate/originate at Chambers or Broad St each day, for a total of 82 trains.
The operating costs are $6.02/revenue-vehicle-mile.
They are running 8 car trains.
This means that the yearly operating cost will be:
82 x 8 x 5 x 52 x $6.02 x 6.62 = $6,797,225.30/yr
The operating costs for bus operation are: $12.25/revenue-vehicle-mile.
There are 37 trains that currently terminate/originate at Myrtle Ave, which will have bus service, 74 both ways.
The distance between Grand St and DeKalb Ave is 2.08 Miles.
This means that the yearly operating cost will be:
74 x 5 x 52 x $12.25 x 2.08 = $490,235.20
This means that the estimated cost for the additional operating cost will be closer to: $7.3 million per year not the $2 million reported to the press.
This cost is billable to the to the Manhattan Bridge Rehabilitation Project (highway funds) and should not come out of the TA's operating or capital budget.
I haven't taken an R142 anywhere outside the stretch from 34th to Atlantic on the 2 train. No transfers to the 3 were announced. When do they announce this transfer? My guess would be at 135 St and Franklin Ave, the stops where the 2 and 3 first and last meet. Please respond.
I'm sure that's the case. There is no need to transfer to the 3 anywhere else.
That is in fact the case. Unfortunately, the transfer on downtown trains is announced at 135 instead of 110. A useless announcement.
I remember for the first few weeks they completely forgot about the 3 at Franklin, and added the announcement later.
"Unfortunately, the transfer on downtown trains is announced at 135 instead of 110"
It is supposed to be announced at 135 that's where they meet!!!!
Yes, and I'd like to see you transfer from a downtown 2 to an uptown 3 at 135 with a Pay-Per-ride or token.
I don't think they announce the transfer for that reason, though you do have a good point. I think they mean if anyone is coming in to Lenox on the 2 from the Bronx and wants to go to New Lots from there, they may want to transfer to the 3 at 135 to get that part done instead of waiting for Franklin. Once again though I didn't think of Lenox terminal so you are right.
It makes more sense to transfer at Franklin if you're going to New Lots.
How many people are going from the Bronx to New Lots? And it always makes more sense to transfer later, not earlier. If there's a problem with the subway at Franklin, you can take the B45 to the B14 or B15. What can you do at 135th Street?
Transferring early makes sense if you don't have a seat (especially since the 3 will most likely have seats available at 135th).
Transferring late makes sense if you do have a seat.
Barring issues of crowding, transferring late usually makes more sense.
the reason for this is because the 2 and 3 are running on the same line most of their routes. they are both the 7th ave. express. so they are only said to transfer to the other train at the last transfer point where they will go their separate ways.
hey everyone, sorry if i havent posted too much messages. Anyways, i was wondering if anybody has any pictures of the infamous W train. kthx!
---Jonathan C
Unlikely yet, since it doesn’t start until tomorrow!
John
The W train starts to run tomorrow.Of course theres no mug shots of it.
There are a few trains on the B rolling around with W here and there in between cars. Also trains in the yards have them too. Only a few though.
Saw an R68 marked W in the Coney Island Yard today from the Belt.
Now that the "B" train won't the running on the West End Line and the "D" train won't be running on the Brighton Line andrelpaced by trains running on the BMT Broadway Line the BMT Rules Brooklyn once again. Now they should roll out the museum BMT Standards and the museum BMT Triplexs to celebrate this event. Now the "W" train running on the BMT Broadway Line to Brooklyn will run on the West End Line (formerly the #3 West End Line train) and the both the yellow diamond and yellow circle "Q" trains (formerly the #1 Brighton Line train) will run to Brooklyn on the Brighton Line. The IND trains will not be running on the Manhattan Bridge for quite some time.
THE BMT RULES!!!
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Also, might I add:
Huwahahahahahahaha!!!
Dan
The old system (and the current system, in 7 hours) is inefficient.
Trains from the north south are forced to turn around when they reach the end of the central business district. The connection to Sixth Avenue allowed routes to be through-routed.
The current V, which will end without leaving Manhattan is an attempt to replace the service that was supposed to be served by the K or KK via the Williamsburg Bridge.
The Q - which if both sides are open would end at 57th Street/7th Avenue - would have gone up 2nd Avenue, providing Upper East Side and East Bronx passengers easy access to the West Side, access that currently requires at least two trains.
With both sides open, Brooklynites can choose which avenue they want to go up.
The only justification for maintaining an "all yellow" southern BMT is either the loss of the bridge's north side (as is happening) or weird provinciality for a dead company1.
1I assume that with that comment, I've either hurt your feelings or put you down. I do not apologize.
weird provinciality for a dead company
To paraphrase a political question used effectively by Mr. Reagan 20 years ago and more recently by Mr. Clinton, "Is Brooklyn rapid transit better off than it was 60+ years ago?"
The best would be for both sides of the bridge to be open, and when the TA built Chrystie Street, they never contended that the 6th Avenue route was superior to Broadway, or even as good. Their argument was that Brooklyn would have more service, not better service. Now there's significantly less service and, even when both sides of the bridge were open there was never as much service as they promised.
The only advantage of 6th Avenue other than the betrayed capacity promise is through-routing, but this is a matter of operational efficiency, and is nothing for the rider.
Still, I appreciate your openness to saying that something new can be better (even if you're wrong in this case) since railfans tend to be neophobes.
>>> since railfans tend to be neophobes. <<<
HEY! What I do in my own bedroom and who (or what) I do it with is my own business. :-)
Tom
After Chrystie St. opened, the answer is yes, it was better served. The problem was with the way service was configured, not in the overall layout of Chrystie St. I've posted before about the idiocy of only limited QB service and the entire thought process behind the QJ route. These stupid service patterns negated any net advantage the new bridge configuration gave southern Bklyn.
To reiterate my earlier post, the best is if both sides of MB are open. But if only one side is open (and that's been for a long time save for a brief spell in 1990) Broadway provides the superior service for Brooklyn.
Of course, come 2004 we may have it all. But I wouldn't count on having any MB at all in the longer term.
Why does Broadway provide the superior service? Both the 6th Ave. and Bway lines parallel one another for most of their runs.
Transfers. The IND was designed with poor interdivisional transfers in mind. It has convenient transfers within its system but not to the BMT or IRT. The BMT and IRT have many joint transfer points with express and local service on both lines.
Valid point. But Broadway-only service eliminates any real transfer to the 8th Ave. IND. So that negates that to some extent.
Perhaps the current service configuration will ease congestion at Atlantic/Pacific.
The new transfer to the IND at 42nd is inconvenient. But trade that for the new transfers, with short walks, to the local and express at 14th, 34th, 42nd, and Lex. That's a net gain.
I agree. The MTA had to make Atlantic Avenue and BMT-IRT transfer point in 1967 because of the loss of the very convenient Union Square and Times Square connections. I also remember that my trips to Manhattan from Beverley Road went from 30 minutes on the QB to 40 minutes on the D, partly because the trains were longer and slower on the Manhattan Bridge, and partly because ??(Who knows why??)
And the 8th Avenue connection is the least useful. 8th Avenue for 59th Street north is provided by the 6th-34th connection. 14th Street-8th Avenue is accessible from the transfer at Union Square. Most other spots served by the 8th Avenue are walkable.
Everyone knows that Broadway is the best located line. That's why the IRT had a cow over the possibility it would be awarded to the BRT in the Dual Contracts.
In the event the MB has another whoopsie and they have to switch sides yet again again, it will be interesting to see if people will give up Broadway service as quietly as they did in 1967, once they've gotten used to the advantages of Broadway service.
Hey, they cried in 1988 when Broadway service was lost, and they cried in 1986 when 6th Ave was lost. They'll always cry.
Brooklyn people probably will like the change. The people who transfer to the B/D/Q from the downtown 6 at Broadway-Lafayette will have to get used to riding the train for two more stops to Canal Street to change trains, but the fact that they can now use the exact same station to change in both directions should be a major improvement.
The xfer at 14th is even better, express between both divisions.
Broadway has more and better connections than any other Manhattan mainline. It has convenient connections to every other Manhattan mainline except 8th Avenue.
Broadway express stations are better situated, hitting the hearts of Chinatown, Union Square, Herald Square, Times Square and 57th Street.
6th only has the advantage of having W4 in the heart of Greenwich Village, but that is more a tourist rather than commuter destination.
6th doesn't connect to the Nassau Street Line, to either IRT line, except north of the CBD; the Flushing connection is via a long passageway; the 14th Street connection from a local station via an even longer passageway.
As I said before, the TA never contended that 6th Avenue was superior, or even as good a route as Broadway. Their bottom line was that it would provide more service.
Agreed. Brooklyn really benefits only when BOTH sides are running and both routes have equal service.
weird provinciality for a dead company1
Amazing how that dead company's ideas are slowly coming back... ideas such as chimes that announce doors closing.. ideas such as placing priority on comfort and customer service... The BMT Bluebird still beats anything the MTA has to offer!!!
Also as an Astoria resident I never forgave the TA for ripping out the decent pre-1967 service ("T" and "QT/QB") we had and replacing it with the lousy "RR". Not only did 6th Avenue get all the good services but the others were sent up Nassau street to Jamaica. After 1967 Jamaica residents could get to Coney Island via the F or QJ. Astoria was left with the garbage.
Amen to that, brother! Not only did we get the lousy RR but we got stuck with the older R16s where as 6th Av got the newer trains.
Jose
Amazing how that dead company's ideas are slowly coming back... ideas such as chimes that announce doors closing.. ideas such as placing priority on comfort and customer service... The BMT Bluebird still beats anything the MTA has to offer!!!
How is the BMT coming back? I don't see the MTA doing anything that comes close to the BMT's technology, the IND's engineering or the IRT's station design.
Well, they are now using stainless steel and door chimes, technology the BMT company pioneered.
Had the BMT continued to pioneer, we would have had the R-142 (it would have been called the J-type or something) in the 1970s and would have been far ahead now.
The R-142 is a good move, however looking at how horribly primitive the TA was until now is disgusting. I can understand their conservatism in the 1980s, but not before.
They got "innovative" with the R44 and R46, and look what happened. I hope history doesn't repeat itself with the R142/143.
Instead of evolving from the old BMT designs as they should have, they were forced to create everything anew, and failed. The R-110 was a test of the design so they didn't have over 1000 cars fail.
But the designs of the 50s and 60s were HORRIBLY CONSERVATIVE. The Redbirds are just another one of those, the R-38 too.
I agree. The most radical 60's car was the R32, probably the best B division car ever produced. Sometimes, they get it right. Too bad only 600 were ordered.
I think the TA has learned from past mistakes, which explains the R-110A/B -- don't make a massive rail car purchase without making sure everything is (relatively) tested. The R-44s would have probably been better off as merely an eight-car prototype order leading up to the main order for the R-46s than what finally took place, which wasn't pretty.
Judging by the photos posted on the website, the R-143 interiors actually have a semi-retro look with the blue seats a return to the days of the R-32 through R-42 trains, while the success of the CBTC system will just have to be seen.
Maybe the T/A should revive the BMT's ideas such as the Multi-Section cars, Triplexs, Blueburds, the Green Hornet etc. only more up to date. Having never ridden on the original BMT subway cars I never experienced what they were like but, from the information that I have they were often quite comfortable. I also liked their plans for some subway lines that were never built.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Seriously, when it comes time for the R-44s to head for offshore reef-land, the MTA really should consider replcing those 75-footers with 150-foot triplex units made up of three 50-foot sections apiece. A 600-foot train would have four more doors than a 600-foot train of R-44s does, and would be able to travel anywhere on the system, which is something the 75-footers can't do without either jamming a tunnel here and there or blocking traffic at Atlantic Ave. and Cresent Street...
You're right. A modern version of the BMT "Triplex" units would be better then the existing 75' long cars such as the R-44s. No jams in the tunnels and no hassles. The BMT had it right when they introduced the Triplex units back in 1925.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
"Seriously, when it comes time for the R-44s to head for offshore reef-land,"
You mean the recycling plant...
Aww, c'mon -- this fish will love the multicolored seats and the State of New York emblems on the walls :-)
Never happen. The NYCT office of System Safety has mandated that on a 600 foot train, the conductor position must be in the middle of the train, so he/she can safely view 300 feet on either side. This rule made due to the R110B. I mentioned here on SubTalk a few weeks ago that for this reason, the R110B will never be seen again on a route which operates full length 600 foot trains.
The train that J Lee proposes would still have an even number of units, and therefore would still have a cab in the middle.
Correct -- four 150-foot units ot Triplexes would equal the current 8-car 75-foot trains, with the C/R right in the middle, the same as currently is the case on the R-44/46/68s.
Where there would be an uneven number would be if they were used on the Eastern Division because of the shorter platform lengths, but that would still be within Office of System Safety guidlines -- it would be a 450-foot train of three 150-foot sections, presumably with the conductor operating out of the front cab of the rear section of the Triplex, which would leave a 300-foot section in front of him and a 150-foot section in back.
Trains from the north south are forced to turn around when they reach the end of the central business district. The connection to Sixth Avenue allowed routes to be through-routed. >
Thru routing is inefficient. Trains should turn around when they hit the CBD and go back for another load - that's where everybody gets off. That's why the M replaced the QJ - to mimimize the inefficiency of thru-routing. Sending D trains from 59th to the Bronx every 5-6 minutes in the AM is poor use of resources.
>>Thru routing is inefficient. Trains should turn around when they hit the CBD and go back for another load - that's where everybody gets off. That's why the M replaced the QJ - to mimimize the inefficiency of thru-routing. Sending D trains from 59th to the Bronx every 5-6 minutes in the AM is poor use of resources.<<
2 things Joe:
1. if the trains do not continue, eventually you get a stoppage of trains from one direction.
2. Let's take a few examples.
A trains:
Trains from Bklyn turn at 34th st. Trains from Harlem turn at 34th st.
D trains:
Trains from Bklyn turn at 59th. Trains from the Bronx turn at W4th
F trains:
Trains from Queens turn at 2nd av. Trains from Brooklyn turn at 57/6th av.
Seeing a pattern? The plan you suggest is stupid. Trains from Brooklyn might be empty, but they are going to the end of the line, and when they turn around, they are picking up passengers. This also prevents division of lines up into shuttles. As was demonstrated above. Further, the people from Brooklyn who may want to go further aren't forced to go back.
In essence, the trains that should "go back for another load" are replaced by thru trains that go back for another load.
Get used to it. That is how the trains once ran in Manhattan before the days of the Chrystie Street connection. You'll find that the system is perfectly workable with the West End Line and Brighton Line trains running on the Broadway Line. Sure there will be a few inconveniences but, it is far better than no trains on the Manhattan Bridge.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I'm not complaining. I understand it is an absolute necessity. But trains on both sides of the bridge, with 6th Avenue and Broadway service is optimal.
"Now they should roll out the museum BMT Standards and the museum BMT Triplexs to celebrate this event."
The BMT Standards are undergoing a slow restoration and are in no shape to be running. One wonders if they will be running at the time of the 2004 Centennial.
Bill "Newkirk"
I also hear that the Triplex's are now being held together with duct tape and paint. I hope all the retired museum fleet cars could be restored to running order, especially the R1-9 cars.
"I also hear that the Triplex's are now being held together with duct tape and paint"
If they are being held together with paint and duct tape, then that's damn good paint and duct tape !
For 75 years of age, these elderly veterans with millions of miles on them run damn good for their age.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why was 63rd St selected as a route, let's say instead of 68th Street, providing a transfer to Lex?
Arti
That's a great question, Arti.
Was it because of the alignment originally intended at Sunnyside Yard (where the bypass track on LIRR ROW would have originated??)? Was it because of the siting of Roosevelt Av station, or because the MTA had originally intended a local connection to Queens Blvd. as well, and 41rst Av was the preferred route?
Was it because this route provided the least disruption to Central Park and the East 60's during construction?
Are any of these reasons valid or plausible?
[Was it because this route provided the least disruption to Central Park and the East 60's during construction? ]
What I've read 5th Avenue "residents" had a major problem with Subway construction as it was, so I can't see it happening 5 blocks north any different.
As far as your other points, the route could have crossed the river more diagonally, I guess.
But the question still stands. I understand the IND (53rd St crossing) not caring about transfers, but in an unified era???
Arti
I was speculating. I don't know if my points are truly valid or not.
Same here, I'd really like to know the logic behind it.
Arti
More so,if that was the case,what about today? With the Second Avenue subway line constrution[a big maybe]looming like the plauge,I can assume the residents and store owners will not be happy about this.Not at all. There is a question I would like to ask,though.There were three stations planned for the crosstown line,[Northern Blvd,Woodside and Continental Avenue]running along side the LIRR.Did the FRA kill the project or did the Long Island object to having TA trains operating on their ROW?
The idea of the 2nd Ave subway brings up an idea. If you had a 2nd Ave subway station that stretches between 60th and 63rd Sts then maybe you can have a direct connection from Lex on the 63rd St line to Lex on the 60th St line. I guess three blocks apart turned out to be perfect. Just speculation remember.
That would be a good way to solve a problem,and I for one would love to see that come true.But,the TA does not have any plans for any stations from 60 to 70 st's. The nearest one to 60th st would be 57th st,and the other at 72nd street. Not to mention,at that location there's the juntion between the two crossing routes[63rd /2nd ave].
Lets remember that this line was planned and built in a time when community pressure was a major factor in placement of lines. Perhaps 63rd. St. was used because it was the only street the city could build on without screaming residents crying NIMBY.
I refer you to #857's post regarding line up with the proposed LIRR bypass route...63rd St and 41 Av in Queens were the straightest way to get there.
I am not disagreeing with the NIMBY effect, however. Good point.
Don't forget The Battle of Central Park, which resulted from the subway tunnel just encroaching on the southeastern corner of the park, requiring the demolition of a playground for several years for construction equipment access. Judging by the howls of protest by the people who used the playground -- basically the children of rich parents in the Central Park South area with access to the editorial page of the New York Times -- you would have thought the MTA was building a 70-story office building on the site.
Running a longer extension through Central Park -- to 68th or even 77th Street to meet up with the No. 6 train stops there -- would have probably required another tunnel access area be built within the park, which would have caused even more howling (though running a tunnel down 67th or 68th Sts. during the 1970s would have definitely been interesting on a geo-political scale, since it would have passed right under the area where the Soviet Union's UN Embassy was. I could just picture CIA tunnel construction crews planting listening devices in the outer walls of the Queens-bound tracks between Third and Lexington...)
"I could just picture CIA tunnel construction crews planting listening devices in the outer walls of the Queens-bound tracks between Third and Lexington...)"
And as a result the subway could have been partly financed out of "black" funds in the CIA's budget.
Can you see some Senatorial with secret clearance running the numbers: "OK, 27 million for the U-2 spy plane, 14 million for a satellite, hey, what's this...Harry, do you know what R-46 means? Is that some new satellite they didn't tell us about?"
:0)
from what i understand, the Queens crosstown line was to begin from the Queen plaza station,and the new river tunnel to Manhattan from Steinway street and Broadway.Those plans were changed to what became the 63rd street crosstown,Queens superexpress.
Thank you. So that means the necessary alignment with the LIRR ROW was a determining factor.
Yes and a ROW like 68th St is too far up if it was to merge back with Queens Plz. It would mean more mileage.
"Yes and a ROW like 68th St is too far up if it was to merge back with Queens Plz. It would mean more mileage."
But 68th Street would have been much better for residence living on the eastside. Besides, it would have provided a needing connection with the #6 line. In return, passengers using the eastside #6 line would have a faster option of getting to the westside.
N Broadway Line
East side passengers would not need to transfer, as they would have the direct service from Second Avenue.
READ THE DAMN! TITLE OF THIS SUBJECT "PIG." It says 63rd Street, therefore, clearly I'm not talking about the 2nd Avenue Line. My criticism is the building of the 63rd Street line - it was bad planning!
The big benefit of putting the line as far as 79th Street, is that it would have solve some of the overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue Line without ever considering the Second Avenue Extension. Also, it would have gone in the center of Roosevelt Island where all the residences are. And, on top of that, provide another transit option to the Astoria area.
W Express Line
Astoria Blvd Station
You didn't mention what you were talking about, in addition to that, you completely misread what I was talking about.
I was talking about the relative merits of a 63rd vs. 68TH street line, I never once mentioned anything about a line north of there. And I WAS talking about the Second Avenue Subway.
If you don't want to respond to that, then don't. But don't say that my idea makes no sense when you have no sense in your head to figure out what I'm talking about.
The above should also be in response to this: message 241622
I've heard that Rockefeller University didn't want subway construction beneath it as the construction could interfere with its experiments. Rockefeller University ends at 63rd Street.
If the subway was at 68th, it would have been impossible to connect the line to a 72nd Street station without building a two level station or moving it north to 79th. A station at 79th would have been too close to 86th but too far from 96th.
Finally, a diagonal tunnel would be more difficult and expensive to construct. Connecting at 37th Avenue would have been too far away from Long Island City's center and locals to the QB line would skip 36th Street.
The Second Avenue subway would also suffer from transfer difficulty. I'm sure that they originally wanted to have long halls with moving walkways.
Thanks
Arti
"If the subway was at 68th, it would have been impossible to connect the line to a 72nd Street station without building a two level station or moving it north to 79th."
Could you explain that in more detail?
Well, the tracks would have to be on different levels so there wouldn't be an inefficient grade junction. If the junction was at 68th, the tracks would not merge and move to the same level, necessitating a two-level station such as the IND station at 8th Avenue/50th Street.
Thank you. I understand now.
"I've heard that Rockefeller University didn't want subway construction beneath it as the construction could interfere with its experiments. Rockefeller University ends at 63rd Street.
If the subway was at 68th, it would have been impossible to connect the line to a 72nd Street station without building a two level station or moving it north to 79th. A station at 79th would have been too close to 86th but too far from 96th.
Finally, a diagonal tunnel would be more difficult and expensive to construct. Connecting at 37th Avenue would have been too far away from Long Island City's center and locals to the QB line would skip 36th Street.
The Second Avenue subway would also suffer from transfer difficulty. I'm sure that they originally wanted to have long halls with moving walkways."
This stuff that you posted makes no sense to me. 79th Street would have allow a connection b/t the #6 line and give eastside passengers a faster choice to the west side.
N Broadway Line
Maybe if you learned some English. A station at 79th Street and 2nd Avenue would NOT provide connection to the 6. It would make no sense to build a transfer from the Second Avenue Subway and the Lexington Avenue Subway there.
The name fits you very well! Anyway, I wasn't talking about the Second Avenue Line, I was talking about a connection with the Lexington Avenue Local. I don't know why you misunderstood my last post unless you're just having a bad day. Again, your responses to me has always been pretty demeaning... But it's you.
BYyyeeee.
W Broadway Express
Astoria Blvd Station
message 241645 should have been a response to this.
The name fits you very well!
Thank you. I've always enjoyed having the name of one of the most intelligent creatures on Earth. Certainly more intelligent than you.
Again, your responses to me has always been pretty demeaning... But it's you.
No, it's you. I respond to people based on how I think of them. I don't care as much about your butchering of the English language, but you've already made clear the kind of slimeball you are.
I would have prefer a 77th Street line which would service the Upper East Side besides the 4,5, and 6.
N Broadway Line
The 1963 plan provided for a tunnel at E. 76th Street. Eventually it made its way down to E. 61st Street, then back up to E. 63rd Street (after the Rockefeller Institute complained, as someone mentioned a day or two ago).
David
What a shame! 76th Street would have taken some of the strain off the Lexington Avenue and the Astoria Lines. Compare that to what we have now (dead ending at the housing projects), NOTHING. Besides, the line would have service the center of Roosevelt Island where most of the residence are.
Shame!
W Broadway Express
Astoria Blvd Station
Shame!
No. We got something. And housing projects hold people who need transit options more than anyone...
Know when to be thankful for small miracles.
63rd street is roughly two and half blocks from the 60th street exit of 59/Lex. I remember seeing something that there was a plan to connect the two with a tunnel along the S/B 6 track allowing transfers to the 4/5/6/N/R. Has anyone else heard this?
Yes. It'll be ready when the 2nd ave line is in full operation.
I do remember hearing something about that.
In the meantime, a Metrocard transfer will have to suffice...
MVMs have headphone ports for audio assistance, but since the machines use touch screens (a no-no for the blind), how do they enter data? I once inserted headphones into the port on the MVM to see what happens, and nothing did. I see this as a grievous violation of ADA, especially since it's not difficult to rectify (MVMs have a numeric keypad).
MVMs have headphone ports for audio assistance, but since the machines use touch screens (a no-no for the blind), how do they enter data? I once inserted headphones into the port on the MVM to see what happens, and nothing did. I see this as a grievous violation of ADA, especially since it's not difficult to rectify (MVMs have a numeric keypad).
Maybe the headphone ports require the use of different types of headphones, ones that blind people have.
I don't see why there should be a special type, unless for some reason it has to have a microphone.
In any case, they should have mentioned that in the brochure.
Ahah! We can help the visually impaired.
I'm not going to post ATLAS because I forgot the IP address for my website and those numbnuts at Namezero or Network Solutions still haven't updated my data (so I'm still being forwarded to a domain name-less account).
subtalklive.com
irc.dal.net:7000
channel #subtalklive
Now, I'm off to send an angry e-mail to Namezero.
Why are the northside Manhattan Bridge tracks only going to take 3 years to reconstruct while the southside tracks took 20+ years?
Because the Southside reconstruction wasn't one project. It was, if I recall right, ac series of failed attempts, including a badly mismanaged effort involving US Steel Corp. The completed reconstruction project was a recent effort begun by city DOT and completed in a coherent fashion. It took 20 years in the same way that Archer Av took twenty years. When funding and proper management was in place, real progress was made.
I guess that means that the north side will take at least 15 years then.
"I guess that means that the north side will take at least 15 years"
Skepticism is expected here, but no, this will probably take exactly what they promise - three years. Funding is in better shape and so is management.
Is there any incentives for the contractor if they finish earlier than posted ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I haven't seen the contract. However, the city did have a good experience with other recent projects - for example, repairs to the Williamsburg Bridge were completed ahead of schedule. Granted, a much smaller job, but evidence of a consciencious effort by the city.
We all get cynical from time to time but it's wrong for us to prejudge everything that way.
News media (I think it was the Post) says $50,000/day bonus for being early, $50,000/day penalty for being late.
David
If you believe this will take 3 years to do, I also have an 11 year old auto to sell you!
I see that next weekend, and the one after, the N train from astoria to queens plaza will yet again be replaced by a shuttle bus.
It seems that they pull this lame, idiotic stunt for at least one weekend every summer, with the effect being that if there simply is no service. Perhaps one bus will run every 5 ot 10 minutes, with a max capacity of what? 100? compared to one full length N every 10 or so minutes that can carry around 1000 (just a guess - what's the max capacity on 8 BMT cars, anyways?).
The effect is predictable: car services make a fortune. by the time a bus arrives at 30th av or broadway, it is dangerously overcrowded with people packed in to the steps on and off the bus. (I'd bet people ride on the back bumper, too). There simply is NO SERVICE, and what is there is far to dangerous and inhuman for anyone with half a brain cell to consider using.
So the queation is: who are the idiots that decide these things? and does anyopne think the media might be interested in covering such dangerous conditions? (if just one of the buses were in an accident, there'd be at least a dozen people hurt).
These days, I live close enough to the G/R that it won't effect me, but one of these days, someone's gunna get hurt. even one shuttle every 20 minutes using one track of the line would be far more logical than their stupid bus BS.
Sounds like history (from the late 1930's thru 1973 re; Bronx 3rd Ave El closing and all NY rail rapid transit lines prior from 1939) repeating itself as many of we " old timers " has spoken about includingme in some of our subtalk posts ---oh well...
Who decides this you ask? Oh I don't know, probably randon T/Os who decide they want the day off so they make a deal with B/Os to run shuttle buses just for the sake of displeasing the 2% of the riding public who actually cares.
But seriously, it's A TA issue. I'm sure the people would rather ide the shuttle bus than walk. And you're knocking the NYCTA Bus Ops when you call their buses dangerous.
Actually, the process is quite complex. They do use numbers derived from the traffic checkers to determine how many busses, how many drivers, how many station agents, etc. I recently took a course in which we actually planned a G.O. and the bus service to cover it. It isn't easy. I can tell you that the people who do this, some of whom I've met, are not idiots. But I'll give you a chance to prove how smart you are, - tell me how much and what resources are needed for each 8 hours of this G.O. If an idiot can plan it - you, being so much smarter, should have no problem with it.
Last night [or this morning]about 3am,Iwas standing on the platform waiting for the Brooklyn bound A train. Two TA personel were walking down the platform from the staircase leading to the 2/3 lines one male,one female. Now these were two people who were cleaning the station. the young man picked up a bottle and smashed it on the ground,and kept walking. The young lady that was with him said ''STOP THAT S..T!''She then pointed up toward the ceiling to inform this guy that BIG BROTHER WAS WATCHING.He then shughed his shoulders and said ''SO F-----G WHAT''!Iwatched them pass the newspaper stand shook my head. ITS a shame,for sure.
Ever since I posted my first article the future Q,I havent really complained abou anything so I am going to start
1.Is there really a transfer between the E,F,G and 7,and if so,is this new transfer going to provide relief to the Queens blvd line?
2.Why did the MTA choose now to put the 5 into bold coors(I always thought this was an issue) after so many years?
3.Why is there always a blunder on these subway maps?
4.Is the Broadway connction to the 63 street tunnel going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection?
5.Is the V going to have the same fait as the NX?
6.WHY NOT extend the Q back into Queens?
7.Instead of making a trip long,why not have the V make express stops to Grand street and extend it to 179 street so the G could go to 71 ave?
8.Why not add a new line to the lexington avenue local or express(and don't tell me theres not enough track capacity,as long as it takes my 5 to come into Union square theres enough track capacity)?
9.Is it going to take 11 years to repair the north side of the Manhatthan bridge?
And finally
10.To make your "V" train work each train would have to come every 5 minuites(aproximately) befor and after an R train leavesa station,long into short how many trains are running per hour?
Ever since I posted my first article the future Q,I havent really complained abou anything so I am going to start
1.Is there really a transfer between the E,F,G and 7,and if so,is this new transfer going to provide relief to the Queens blvd line?
2.Why did the MTA choose now to put the 5 into bold coors(I always thought this was an issue) after so many years?
3.Why is there always a blunder on these subway maps?
4.Is the Broadway connction to the 63 street tunnel going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection?
5.Is the V going to have the same fait as the NX?
6.WHY NOT extend the Q back into Queens?
7.Instead of making a trip long,why not have the V make express stops to Grand street and extend it to 179 street so the G could go to 71 ave?
8.Why not add a new line to the lexington avenue local or express(and don't tell me theres not enough track capacity,as long as it takes my 5 to come into Union square theres enough track capacity)?
9.Is it going to take 11 years to repair the north side of the Manhatthan bridge?
And finally
10.To make your "V" train work each train would have to come every 5 minuites(aproximately) befor and after an R train leaves a station,long into short how many trains are running per hour?
I'll address the points I can one by one.
1.Is there really a transfer between the E,F,G and 7,and if so,is this new transfer going to provide relief to the Queens blvd line?
There is a transfer right now. It is very heavily used during rush hours. I don't know what made you think it's new, I believe the transfer was put in when the Queens Boulevard line was built.
3.Why is there always a blunder on these subway maps?
I wasn't aware that blunders on subway maps were a ubiquitous thing.
4.Is the Broadway connction to the 63 street tunnel going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection?
Once they build the 2nd Ave. subway, it's going to be put into full time use. Until then, it'll probably remain solely a convenient way to re-route R trains on the weekends.
5.Is the V going to have the same fait as the NX?
The NX was an effort to re-create the Bankers' Specials (and shut up the riders who no longer had them) that once ran up the Brighton and over the Manny Bridge to Chambers then back to Brooklyn through the tunnel. It was put into service after Chrystie St. and died through lack of ridership.
The V train, on the other hand, is an addition to service on the Queens Boulevard line, a very crowded and heavily used line. Any train that comes and is going to Manhattan will be used. I know I'm going to be taking it an awful lot.
6.WHY NOT extend the Q back into Queens?
Three words: Not enough trains. The trainsets to give frequent service between Brighton Beach and 179th (or even Continental, even though Continental wouldn't be able to handle it) are just not there. When the R-160s are in full service, ask again.
7.Instead of making a trip long,why not have the V make express stops to Grand street and extend it to 179 street so the G could go to 71 ave?
On the extention to 179th, you run again into the problem of Not Enough Trains. If any line should be extended to 179 it should be the R. As for the Grand St. terminal idea, it wouldn't work because Grand is not set up for terminal service. There is no crossover outside the station and no room to put one in. I think infrequent express service and infrequent local service is less preferable then frequent local service and no express service.
8.Why not add a new line to the lexington avenue local or express(and don't tell me theres not enough track capacity,as long as it takes my 5 to come into Union square theres enough track capacity)?
I don't think there's any demand for a new Lexington local. More frequent service, sure, but a new line wouldn't serve much purpose.
9.Is it going to take 11 years to repair the north side of the Manhatthan bridge?
Good god I hope not.
Dan
>>> I don't know what made you think it's new, I believe the transfer was put in when the Queens Boulevard line was built <<<
The free transfer (74th & Roosevelt stations) was initiated concurrent with the big fare increase on July 1, 1948.
Mr.X2001 was probably referring to the Court Square transfer since he specifically mentioned the "G".
Tom
"Mr.X2001 was probably referring to the Court Square transfer since he specifically mentioned the "G"."
Also, he never mentioned the R.
Okay, let me take a shot at these:
"1.Is there really a transfer between the E,F,G and 7,and if so,is this new transfer going to provide relief to the Queens blvd line?"
I'm assuming you mean at Court Square/Ely Ave. No not yet, but it should come out within less than a year. If you mean Roosevelt, as danilm said, it is there and was there from when Queens Blvd was built.
"2.Why did the MTA choose now to put the 5 into bold coors(I always thought this was an issue) after so many years?"
I'm assuming you mean 5 in bold on the subway map for each station between E180 and Bowling Green because it went to these stops all times except nights. Search me, probably an error from before.
"3.Why is there always a blunder on these subway maps?"
Always? Try sometimes, and usually the blunder is quiet a small matter.
"4.Is the Broadway connction to the 63 street tunnel going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection?"
What fate is this, not being used? And by Chrystie St do you mean the KK connection or the bridge connection? Okay, in terms of not being used, I may agree. These two trackage places seem to be there for backup if something goes wrong, if you mean the KK connection for Chrystie St. For example, R uses 63rd-Bway connection for GO jobs same as when the D used the KK connection to get to Brighton in the early 80s when the North Side of the Bridge was out. It went onto the Williamsburg Bridge and then back via Nasssau.
"5.Is the V going to have the same fait as the NX?"
If you mean being retired, no. The V is something essential, meant to help Queens Blvd passengers get to Manhattan and also to help out the F on 6th Ave below 34th St. The NX was something that was just like the N except it just ran non-stop 59-Coney Island and went to Brighton Bch. Not much use and not really necessary.
"6.WHY NOT extend the Q back into Queens?"
The 63rd St-Queens Blvd connection isn't in full-time use yet, and so by running it to Queensbridge, it would make the 6th Ave S obsolete and if that happened 57/6 would be closed down. Also, as mentioned before, car shortage can't be helped.
"7.Instead of making a trip long,why not have the V make express stops to Grand street and extend it to 179 street so the G could go to 71 ave?"
Well it can't run Queens Blvd express because there is no room to fit it with the E and F. And the F can't run local because it would be the 63rd St service and 63rd St was meant to be an "express" as it avoids the 53rd/60th/Lex crowding. So having the 63rd St train run local makes no sense. Also having both the E and V run express, with the F local brings 2 53rd St expresses thereby the connection from the G where it ends at Court Sq {it won't fit into Queens Blvd either way} would bring passengers no direct Crosstown-Queens Blvd Local service without taking 3 trains. Can't run to Grand b/c there's no switches to turn it. Can't run to 179 b/c of car shortage and the fact that it would save only 3 minutes or so. True we would like it but it isn't necessary for the people who want to get to work.
"8.Why not add a new line to the lexington avenue local or express(and don't tell me theres not enough track capacity,as long as it takes my 5 to come into Union square theres enough track capacity)?"
If you travel on the rush, there's no track capacity. Don't forget there are 4s squeezed in between those 5s. And also, no capacity on the local track b/c don't forget the 6 represents two trains, the 6 lcl and the 6 exp, and it has the most service in the system.
"9.Is it going to take 11 years to repair the north side of the Manhatthan bridge?"
Who knows nowadays?
"10.To make your "V" train work each train would have to come every 5 minuites(aproximately) befor and after an R train leaves a station,long into short how many trains are running per hour?"
I believe it is on 8 or 9 tph.
1.Is there really a transfer between the E,F,G and 7,and if so,is this new transfer going to provide relief to the Queens blvd line?
Are you referring to Roosevelt Avenue? There's been a conection there for as long as I can remember.
2.Why did the MTA choose now to put the 5 into bold coors(I always thought this was an issue) after so many years?
Bold coors? I've seen regular coors, coors lite and coors lite ice but never have I seen bold coors.
3.Why is there always a blunder on these subway maps?
Probably for the same reason there ARE always blunders in your posts. Lack of education and/carelessness by the writer/map-maker.
4.Is the Broadway connction to the 63 street tunnel going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection?
It depends on the definition of the word "Fait"
5.Is the V going to have the same fait as the NX?
Same as above.
6.WHY NOT extend the Q back into Queens?
Where into Queens should it go? Astoria already has the W & N. Queens Blvd already has the E,F, G, & R and soon the V. The Q train will not fit onto the #7 line and would be less functional on the J, Z and M.
7.Instead of making a trip long,why not have the V make express stops to Grand street and extend it to 179 street so the G could go to 71 ave?
Grand Street is not configured as a terminal.
8.Why not add a new line to the lexington avenue local or express(and don't tell me theres not enough track capacity,as long as it takes my 5 to come into Union square theres enough track capacity)?
So, in other words, don't confuse you with facts because your mind is made up?
9.Is it going to take 11 years to repair the north side of the Manhatthan bridge?
It may take even longer to make the repairs. As of now, subway service will be disrupted until 2004.
And finally
10.To make your "V" train work each train would have to come every 5 minuites(aproximately) befor and after an R train leaves a station,long into short how many trains are running per hour?
I'm sure this is english but not a dialect I'm familiar with. Can someome please translate it for me?
I'm sure this is english but not a dialect I'm familiar with. Can someome please translate it for me?
I tried to put it through Babelfish (babel.altavista.com), but the results were suspect. It said "the cheese is too soft."
Ah well.
Dan
3. There is always an error in the subway map for the same reason that you spelled "fate" wrong (as "fait"), "color" wrong (as "coor"), and "there's" wrong (as "theres") because it is very hard to get EVERYTHING right no matter how hard you try to edit what is created.
5. The Broadway to 63 connection for the near and middle term future is like the Williamsburg Bridge to Bway-Lafayette section of the Chrystie St. connection, to be used for emergencies.
7. The V will not make express stops to Grand St. during the MB repairs because they are using the express tracks as turnarounds for the D and B. After full service is restored, the B & D will probably run express again, and the F and V will run local on 6th Avenue. Also the whole purpose of creating the V and cutting back the G is to get all four trains running under Queens Blvd. to run into Manhattan. That is why the G is being cut back at Court Square. Personally, I think it should go to Queens Blvd. somehow to allow the Greenpoint riders a shot at 2 trains instead of one. But, that is where they may make a connection to the 7 allowing a connection to a very frequent train line, with the drawback of having to climb a lot of steps or use a long escalator, if they ever get around to building it.
10. Who knows what your question means (see #3 again).
I remember whn my mom would take me to Coney Islandon the B and D(since it was faster than the F and N.Plus we got a free transfer to the 4)I've just got back from taking my niece to Coney Island when I seen the new Q signs at Coey Island.Its a wierd thing how that sign took away the last of my boyhood cause it almost brung a tear to my cousin's eye.Then I realized how some things don't seem precious untill they're gone.I know you don't see where I'm coming from,but when they replace that old 4 sign for that shiny new 10 express sign you would feel the same way.
I feel that way about the old Jamaica Avenue El. I remember seeing it as my father and I approached Jamaica on the LIRR back in the early 1970s.
E_DOG
Shiny new 10 Express?
Metaphor, man.
OK, I got it.
And to me it's more like homecoming.
Strange how our youthful memory freezes things as rockbound which were only points in time.
And that's exactly how I felt when they took away the "T", "QT", and "QB" 24 years ago!!!!
oops... 34 years ago (damn.. I am getting old)...
I don't know if I'm that upset about it.
When I was a kid, I lived between the F and N in Gravesend, Brooklyn. Kings Highway was my stop.
If anything, my boyhood trains have been gone for sometime.
Even though the bridge is flipped to Broadway, the N is still local through the tunnel. Nothing beat those R32's up 4th Avenue, over the Bridge, and then express up to 34th Street. The N was alot faster than the F middays.
We had F express service during rush hour to and from Jay Street, and that has been gone even longer.
I took the dash one last time today. I went through a total of 5 times. Fortunately the windows were not covered up on the R68's I rode, and I managed to get one last view. The signs are getting put up at Bway-Laff, plus track workers are all over Grand setting things up for the shuttle there. It was sure hard to say good bye, late at night tonight the dash will be no more, at least not for 3 more years.
The Grand street station seemed emptier than usual today as people start changing patterns.
Going back home the N20 out of Flushing was a no show (read the full bs in Bustalk) so I took the LIRR. The swift 7 train got me to Woodside with 5 minutes to spare. Well at least the train ride went very good, like clockwork. Gotta love the speed between Woodside and Jamaica, and then around the Floral Park area. Plus the A/C is great.
It's amazing LIRR goes to alot of the same places LI Bus does, yet the LIRR is the only way to actually get there if you know what I mean!
I checked out the progress today on the Stillwell Terminal arcade demolition. All the old stores and food concessions are gone, including Philips Candy store. Only one concession remains, but that is partly inder the concrete structure. A matter of time before that goes.
All that remains is the steel work of arcade structure. Is will disappear in the future. The area where the car service,pizza shop and corner convience stores once stood is now blacktopped. This came in handy with the CROWDS streaming off the arriving trains.
Bill "Newkirk"
That little fiasco with the "Take (Q) to 34th St.for to the Bronx"
has been cleared up by pasting an orange (D) over it.
HOWEVER..........
Check the Manhattan bound signs for what I think is another gaff. The sign for the (R) says "To Forest Hills via Broadway Local.....Late night hours, take (Q) [yellow] to West 4th St for (F)!!!!
The yellow (Q) doesn't run up 6th Ave, but Broadway. Shouldn't that be shanged to "take (Q) to 34th St. for (F) ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That little fiasco with the "Take (Q) to 34th St.for diamond Q to the Bronx"
has been cleared up by pasting an orange (D) over it.
HOWEVER..........
Check the Manhattan bound signs for what I think is another gaff. The sign for the (R) says "To Forest Hills via Broadway Local.....Late night hours, take (Q) [yellow] to West 4th St for (F)!!!!
The yellow (Q) doesn't run up 6th Ave, but Broadway. Shouldn't that be shanged to "take (Q) to 34th St. for (F) ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They covered over the D and E on that sign, but apparantly "W " was never covered with " 3". Oh well...
On a good note: Daily News captured a beautiful photo of the DeKalb < Q > sign, it will be immortalized in microfilm (and in my newspaper clipping book) for years to come.
At 1650 hours, the train arrived at DeKalb ave (stupid familiarization train...) heading southbound. Am I the last person from this board to have a railfan window over the North side, or did someone get it after me?
BTW: Someone came in and filmed a railfan window video at Grand st. Was it someone from here?
I'd like to know who had that camera too as he shot me passing by Northbound.
A little before 5PM, I boarded a slant "B" at Bway Lafayette too, and at Grand St, a guy w/ braids also got on with a videocam (and a huge smile--it was his lucky day) to tape one of the last rides over the North side of the Manny B. HE got OFF at Dekalb. I rode down to Coney Island only to look at the overpass to see the guy who snapped a photo about 55th ST snapping a departing R-68 "B" at Stillwell. WE BOTH boarded a "D" to Brighton, got off, went to the opposite platform to get a beautiful shot of an r-68 "D" rounding that obtuse curve!!! THEN I WENT TO WALK ON THE BEACH. Returning to Stillwell, I boarded a "B" to return to Manhattan via SEA BEACH EXPRESS!! As we passed thru the yard, I looked for "W" trains, but instead saw several slant "B"'s!!! It was only when I glanced into the "Garage" that I saw an R-68 "W" and orange "S". As we crossed the MannyB and went thru to Bway Lafayette, it hit me--I wont be able to do that for another 3 years!!!! Sigh.........Tony
Also saw a couple of slants on the B at the CI Yard yesterday when passing over the Belt.
From what someon told me at the ERA meeting, the B is going to run 8 car slant 40's, to conserve the space used by all the B's laying up on IND turf now.
I don't know how true this is, but if so, those slants were probably the trains that would finish uptown during the flip.
Tomorrow, we'll see.
If this is true, I hope they put up the special 8 car conductor boards for R40 cars since the conductor operates an 8 car R 40 at 3 cars south and 5 cars north because of no conductors door panel in the #1 cabs of this type of equipment. The conductor boards for an 8 car train on that section of the IND would be set up at 4 south, 4 north for R32 type cars.
'tain't true. The AM assignment for the B line consists of 160 R-68A cars and 8 R-68s. The PM assignment has the 160 R-68As but no R-68s.
David
That's what I get for posting things while I'm half-asleep :-)
The assigment I listed is for the W.
The B assignment consists of 80 R-68s in the AM and PM peaks.
David
Do you have a complete listing of all MU assignments?
If so, please post.
Will Concourse maintain any R68As?
All R-68As are assigned to Coney Island, none to the Bronx. We'll see if I have time to post the entire assignment.
David
I rode through the dash on an R-40 B around 11 tonight. One of our resident Atlantans, JRR4, boarded at Broadway-Laf(?). We bypassed DeKalb and ran express to 36th, where the two of us hopped off for an R-40 N across the platform (how often does that happen?).
I think it's pretty safe to say, unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary, that this was the last R-40 in revenue service through the dash and over the north side tracks.
More later. This was an eventful evening.
I had been on one of the northbound runs of that Slant R40 B train, at the time period herein mentioned, soaking in the view in all its glory (boarded at DeKalb Avenue, got off at Grand Street).
You got to bed early. I'm finally heading in now.
Imissed all the fun due to the wife wanting to go to Staten[uh!]Island to see her family.
And Boy it was doing 120 in westerly (Finally I have seen a high speed train).
On the Part 3: track cuts portion of my "less glamorous parts of the MTA", I wrongly stated that track panels were loaded on to flat cars and taken to the worksite. Because there is not enough clearance in the tunnels, track panels are loaded onto Flatbed trucks and taken to the worksite.
'Tis the very witching hour of night, and those spooty B and D trains are back in the Bronx, where they belong.
The BMT is back. Deal with it.
Finally!!!
Now if we just rename the W the T...................
The BMT will REALLY be back!
Also forgot to say that we get back all the R32's..........
And make the N the exp. via bridge to 57th, and the Q local via tunnel to Astoria
Eric: If we ever run into each other the drinks are on me. I could have written your message myself. You're a gentlemen and a scholar.
I just new you would like that.
It made my day. Keep the good thoughts coming.
Can I come too?
I don't remember quite what this was in answer to, but as a Sea Beach fan it goes without saying the answer is yes. Boy is it great to see some new Sea Beach fanatics making their way on Subtalk. I was getting the feeling I was the Lone Ranger in that regard, but you, Sea Beach 53, and Sea Beach Express make me feel we are putting a real force together. And there's always room for one more, or two, or twenty.
At least the N has always been a pure BMT route. OK, it did run to Continental Ave. via the IND for a time.
Yeah, right!
Almost Virgin!
avid
>>>>>You're a gentleman and a scholar.
Don't let that get around. He's got a reputation to uphold you know.
Well don't hold back zman. What do you know that the rest of us don't? It can't be bad. Eric is a class act.
Huh? The IND has the R32's on the A, C, E, 21 St. to Bway-Laf. shuttle, and occasionally on the G. And if they wound up on the B, ( cars displaced from the N) which we'll see in a few hours from the time of this post, the only place where you would see an R32 on the BMT would be on the R, whose cars of course are assigned to the IND. Unless I'm missing something........
The N has (had?) lots of R-32's and is 100% BMT. (The R has very few.)
I was refering to a RUMOR that in order to save a few cars, there was a possibility of the CIYD asigned R32's woul be used on the B in 8 car consists. Since my original post, I have been informed that ten 8 car R68's (80 cars) will be used in B service.
What would R-32's be doing way up there? I don't think the Bronx knows what to do with them.
The R32's was up there before........
R32s on the B would be great!! It would give us a chance for railfanning on the Concourse Line.
That's another thing about the R32s. They were the last distinctly "BMT" equipment, specifically BMT Southern Division equipment, before the breakdown of divisional car assignment.
I forget where the first assignment of the R38s was. IIRC, the first R40 Slants went to the IND Queens Lines.
The R38's first run was on the F.
So were the Slant R-40's. I believe they debuted on the F.
BMTman
Yep, they sure did. And the E as well.
Actually, the R-68's could be considered BMT equipment, as when they were delivered, the system was in the current configuration-- BMT and IND separated), and the 68's debuted on the Coney Island D and later spread to the N and Q. (except for the initial run on the whole D before the closure, and some runs on the F afterward) The 68A debuted on the Concourse D. That's one reason why I wished they would have sent the 68A's back to Concourse for this change. Plus, the dimmer interior was more like a cool IND look (R-38's, slant 40 original interior, etc.)
The first revenue trip of a train of R-68s took place early in the morning of April 16, 1986. This was two weeks before the "A/B" tracks on the Manhattan Bridge closed to accommodate a phase of the structural rehabilitation (the Brighton Line went skip-stop at that time as well, due to reconstruction of the local tracks between Kings Highway and Prospect Park). I was on that trip. So, at the time the R-68s made their debut in service, full service was being provided over the Manhattan Bridge, but not for long.
David
No, the T was symbol imposed by the TA, the very same TA that killed the BMT. If you want the BMT back, call it the #3 or the West End Line.
Pig: Call it the #3? Coming from you? Wow!!! You must have had an epiphony. You were so dead set against numbers for the BMT trains just a short while ago. I'd love to bring back numbers for the BMT trains, and give those letter to the IND where they belong. As for the IRT they never used numbers until the 60's. They could go back to being faceless, just like the Bronx dominated IRT.
No, I'm saying that 3 is better than T. Not that it's better than W. W is still better than any of them.
Even better than W? B!
YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!
BMT-Lines.COM
[The BMT is back. Deal with it.]
Really? Are you saying that, after 50-plus years, the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Company has been spun-off from NYC Transit and is once again operating its own separate and distinct subway service? Does the media know?
What fare does the BMT charge? Does it accept MetroCard? Are transfers available to/from lines still run by NYC Transit?
:-)
Who knows? Anything is possible now that the BMT Crew has been emboldened.
Unfortunately, if the MTA did spin off the divisions, I'm afraid they'd turn them over to an even bigger bunch of turkeys.
The BMT is on the march and no fugitive from Bustalk is going to throw a damper on it. BMT men unite. We will be heard from again. The BMT rules.
Today is a great day for BMT fans. The old trains are back! Remember the #3 West End Line trains and the #1 Brighton Line trains. They back to their former glory as the "W" and the "Q" trains respectively. THE BMT RULES!!! and I hope that there is no turning back. The IND with the exception of the Culver Line is no longer in BMT territory. BMT fans have their favorite trains back. Now hope that they revive the #4 Sea Beach Line express.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
It would be nice if the Triplexes could rise from the dead. Today marks 36 years since their last regular runs. I'm not counting the 1974 Culver Shuttle run.
I never rode on a Triplex but, I've seen the Triplex unit at the NYC transit museum. Although the Triplexs weren't well maintained during their last years they kept right on running. Another SubTalker is suggesting a modern version of a Triplex unit that would be 150' long and would have 9 doors on each side. I also would suggest bringing back modern versions of such units such as the Multi-Sections, Bluebirds, Green Hornet. I think that they would be better than the R type cars that have been built over the last 70 years.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
>>I think that they would be better than the R type cars that have been built over the last 70 years.<<
That's because they were more innovative that the cars that have plied the rails for so long, those redbirds which everybody pines for so much are just a stamp of an endless monotony during an era.
The R-142/143 bring back some Bluebird technology: Bluebirds were deisgned to run smooth and quiet, and the R-142/143 is a base on the same concept. It would be nice to see some articulated cars on the TA's lines, but that's not gonna happen.
If they're already setting up cars such as the R-142s in 5 car sets I see no reason that they cant make a five section articulated unit. You would need fewer trucks and that would save on weight and operating costs.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Fred,
The Brighton Line has always and still does rule.
Two Q's are better than one !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I must say I'm enjoying this banter. As someone who's first introduction to the subway was in the mid 60's on the A line in Washington Heights, I would say that I considered myself an IND fan. But then for the past few years (since I've lived in Manhattan and the Bronx), I discovered the #1 train and cosidered myself an IRT guy. But I do find the new (Old??) "BMT" routes that have been restored this past week to be very interesting (the history of the Manhattan Bridge routes, the much better connections from BMT to other lines than from the IND.
And to compound my feeling, the "A" train is now a disgrace, with very infrequent service, so maybe the IND is third among equals.....
Sounds like a grouchy IND partisan :-)
IND or IRT and probably Bustalk too. Who the hell cares what he says?
No, gotta be an IND fan ... after the Astoria/Flushing line battle was settled back in 1948, the IRT has had their own lines to work with, and haven't really had much "route competition" with Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit. But over the past 50 years t he BMT has been the one steadily seeing its territory eaten away by the TA/MTA, with routes either being recaptured by the IND or el lines being abandoned entirely (the 11th Street cut for the R train being the lone exception to the rule).
And of course, the greatest indignity came in 1967, when Stillwell went from three BMT lines and one IND route to three IND ones and one BMT route, which they've been trying to choke off more and more for the last decade (as you obviously know). Today's change just goes a little ways towards setting the universe back into its proper order...
Very nostalgic, but the B and D trains belong in Brooklyn as they were before. I can't wait for 2004.
Yeah, and I'm insulted that two respectable letters from the top of the alphabet--B and D--have been banished from Brooklyn, which has to accept a couple of letters they had lying around at the bottom of the alphabet, Q and W.
Q and W are good Scrabble® letters...but not for subway trains running in Brooklyn...
Er, um, [g]
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sorry to disagree - the B killed my T = Revenge is sweet!!!
The D belongs in Brooklyn. Can't say the same about the B.
Awww, come on man. We railfans remain nostalgic about a subway system that existed over 30 years ago. That doesn't mean it is better than the current system. I have never known any other line but the B (and M) serving the West End line. Anything pre-1967 is meaningless to me, except as an interest in subway history.
Meaningless to you? OK, I can live with that. But not meaningless to me or any old BMT fan for that matter. My elixir is your poison, but better that than the other way around. Now to get the Sea Beach on the bridge again.
The B and D never belonged in Brooklyn. They were part of the IND line, which as everybody knows was instituted out of spite by some lame brained mayor with an ax to grind against the BMT. Why they were ever put on the BMT tracks in Brooklyn is beyond comprehension. I love the new arrangement and do most BMT fans.
I would have to agree with you upon the new arrangement. The IND trains are back where they belong and the BMT is the BMT once again. THE BMT RULES!!!
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
It has nothing to do with your delusions about some "mayor with an axe to grind" The through-routed routes were more efficient.
Only for IND riders. BMT riders are obviously better off; IRT riders now have real transfer points.
And you can't deny that the Q works much better on Broadway. Well, you can, but you'd be wrong.
With the exception of the Culver Line, the Southern Division has been divorced from that upstart IND Lines inspired by that wicked John Hylan. Old Johnnie Boy must be spinning in his grave !
Also, express service has returned and not just some reroutes because of trackwork. Those rails on the express track are really gonna be polished for the next four years !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>Also, express service has returned and not just some reroutes because of trackwork. <<<
We'll see how long they run that W express. The B tended to local service whenever they had an excuse for it...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Attaboy Paul. Keep those damn B and D trains up in the Bronx where the hell they belong. The BMT rules and IS back and, yes, those of you anti-BMT fans out there------Tough Tacos.
Welcome back, guy! "GO" ahead, enjoy your hippopotami, Da Bronix got da 32's so we'se happy as clams in mud. :)
Hey Selkirk, good to hear from you again. Where have you been? Yes, we BMT fans are overjoyed. But as long as you and I are bantering in good fun, I hope this subject doesn't lead to some others getting carried away and starting some attacks. But you are welcome to keep the B and D in the Bronx. That's where they belong.
Heh. I'm here, almost every day. Ain't always that much to respond to though ... I'm of the old school, I take my train orders and take my lineups and don't much care to rewrite the route maps. As long as I clock out in about the same condition I shaped up in, I'm happy.
But just wanted to bust your chops since I saw you driving by. Heh. And you KNOW I won't be happy until the D train stops in Selkirk. And as to the Dubya train, it ought to go to flatBUSH ... ouch. :)
That's worth a rim shot.
OK ok ok ... BUSHwick will do. :)
Yeah, send it all the way over there on weekends. --with the 68A's!
I'm sure they can put up crossing guards so only one train does the S curve at a time. Some customizing to be done there otherwise. :)
Always good to hear from you, and I never feel you're busting my chops. All good old fashioned banter. If you can't take a little needling you ought not to be on this site in the first place. Please tell that to two of your Bronx buddies up there. They have as much sense of humor as an over-ripe prune.
Heh. You've gotta get out of the city for a while to develop a sense of humor ... or so it would seem. Have your boys guard them trains, us Bronx guys are planning to grab all the 32's we can. :)
I still think of the R-32s as being BMT equipment. That very first N train I rode on back in 1965 was a shiny new R-32 consist. Ditto for the R-27/30s. Seeing the R-32s on the N and Q makes me think, you really can go home again.
Sorry to burst ya bubble, but the D is a BROOKLYN train as far as I'm concerned...forever associated with the very scenic Brighton Beach Line.
BMTman
Hey! Hey! Well ... we can share ... it was the one train that linked the two far boroughs in a commonality. And now they've STABBED it. :)
I must admit I have a hard time picturing R-1/9s running on the Brighton after being used to seeing them howling ass along CPW.
I did notice they were a bit "sluggish" out there, but yeah, they ran. It was actually a nice ride down the Brighton line considering it's in Brooklyn. Heh.
Not as strange as those KK trains of BMT Standards must have looked plowing the local tracks along Sixth Ave. in 1968 (I would have loved to have heard the noise they would have made coming into the echo chamber stops at 14th and 23rd Sts. -- they both had bull & pinons, but the Standards and the R-1/9s each had their own unique sound)
The "D" belongs on Culver - For me the Brighton will always be the Q series (Q, QB, QT).
For me and Brighton Express Bob, it was always be the #1 train.
Get with the times, the #1 is my Bronx/Broadway/7thAvenue Local. Maybe the best train on the system, it least it runs often!!!
But Doug, the Brighton Line is a BMT line from time immemorial. It was the line of the famous #1 train. Ask Brighton Express Bob about that. I know you are younger than I am by a good decade at least, so maybe you are unaware that the D was a IND line train and never even got to Brooklyn until late 1954, just weeks after I loved to California. I'd love to give the BMT trains numbers again, too.
>>I'd love to give the BMT trains numbers again, too.<<
I'd have to shoot you.
Enjoy the BMT, and come visit the "South Side" Fred!
But Doug, the Brighton Line is a BMT line from time immemorial.
The BMT has never even existed in your life. The Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation was purchased by the Board of Transportation of the City of New York on June 1, 1940. Before 1923 it was the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company. And of course, before 1900, the Brighton Line was owned by the Kings County Elevated Railroad, and before that by the Brooklyn and Brighton Beach Railroad, which was a reorganization in 1887 of the Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island Railroad, established 1878.
Actually it's weird to consider that the BMT existed as the BMT for only 17 years* but it left a big big mark.
As you study more history, Pork, you'll realize that certain things exist in a very real sense long after their narrowly defined corporate existence ended. When I was growing up in '50s, when the BMT had been gone almost as long as it existed, the BMT was still very real for the people of Brooklyn. Station signs everywhere still said BMT LINES (and INTERBOROUGH and INDEPENDENT). Car fleets, station furniture and routes (with rare exceptions) were as distinct between the three divisions as if they were separate companies. Some of the BMT Standards still had BMT-only route maps inside. I even remember the day back in 1957 or so when the startling innovation of a token vending machine was installed in the outer wall of Church Avenue stationhouse. For the publicity pictures, the TA sent a professional sign painter to repaint the station house sign. The sign proudly proclaimed "BMT LINES" in (IIRC) red, white and green.
Even the transfers on the bus routes still said "BMT BUS DIVISION" though they gradually began to replace these with "BROOKLYN BUS DIVISION."
Only in 1967 with Chrystie Street did the TA make a major effort to break down the divisional designations (and route names, inter alia. This was inspired not only by the service mergings, but by the bureaucratic thinking of a coldly mechanistic era.
To this day, the BMT exists in contract plans and procurement.
So the BMT isn't dead, it's just been napping.
*If you wanna be technical, 20 years, since its corporate existence wasn't dissolved until 1943.
P.S. Since I know you are serious about history, a nitpick--the Brooklyn Flatbush & Coney Island (as in the Brighton Line--there were two others railroad incorporations by that name in NYS) was established in 1877, but opened in 1878.
Tell 'em---Paul you be de man - yes and the natives still called it the BMT and IRT until the late 70's-and the IND was also the "IND" - it was only unill the merging of lines and routes that the BMT and IND lost their distinctiveness and individual
character - not to mention look-alike equipment of the post R-38 class cars. However, albeit newer
equipment - the IRT routes and structures still
retain a good part of their original character because of their inability to merge (due to car
size differences) with other lines---maybe Belmont
had something there when he designed it!
True, the DESIGNATION is IND -- only due to the consolidation of the system.
However, for folks of MY GENERATION the D of the Brighton Line is as a part of Brooklyn as Nathan's Famous of Coney Island. True it was the #1 train of days of yore, but most people (certainly born within the last 35 years) know the Brighton Line as D train territory.
BMTman
And to me the D train was an invader - it forever deprived me of the Astoria - Brighton Service I grew up with. Just like the B deprived me of the "T" - Astoria-Broadway-West End EXPRESS.
So I am rejoicing even if it is only for 4 years!!
Maybe after four years the TA will get religion or brains and not undue one of their better moves in the last 30 years.
Doug: As an old warhorse of the late 40's and early 50's, it is anathema to me to see an IND train running on a BMT route. It is, in fact, sickening. But you younger guys have a different take on it, so that is understandable. But you have to be pleased that the BMT is forging out in the forefront again. Right?
Except in the old days (actually lasting till only a few years ago), it was the D & C in the Bronx, and it was the Brighton Line (not Sea Beach)that ran to Astoria most of the time, joined by the West End T during the week.
YES!! THE BMT!!!!!!!!
Oh, sorry!
Sorry? Sorry Hell. Now is the time for all BMT aficianados to rejoice. YAHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
I thought I'd change the title so it'd be more fitting! The BMT is crap! 60th st is as far north as it goes. That's shameful! The IND is much better. Uptown, the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn and the rockaways. What train has a song about it?????
THE (A) BABY!!!! NOT THE (N)! NOT THE (W)! NOT THE BMT "BEST" (Q), THE (A)!!! BOOOOO-YAAAAAHHHH!!!!
Just messing with all you "BMT aficianados"
J-Dub.
hysterical..thank you very much.
I'm a young'un here, so I can't say I have much loyalty to anything other than my local line...though i was thinking, if the MTA split up and became different companies again, would that spur competition, i.e. improvement and maybe new track construction?
-West End Scott, dubya rider
>>I'm a young'un here, so I can't say I have much loyalty to anything other than my local line...though i was thinking, if the MTA split up and became different companies again, would that spur competition, i.e. improvement and maybe new track construction?<<
I'm a "young'un" too. Nice to see more 'junior subtalkers'.
I doubt that if there was a split it would be beneficial.
1. the BMT/IND are too intertwined.
2. the IND could dominate any new track building: private companies had to get the city to dig their tunnels.
3. Competition was around back then too. Of course, it was more like the IND against the world. The Fulton subway was directly below the Fulton elevated. Sound like competition to you? The BMT was solely concerned about transportation outside of Manhattan. South Brooklyn (and the Fulton line) were the most important lines to them, and the Park Row station was where people transferred to the IRT. Hence, the IRT and BMT were more like rivals unified for a purpose. They would be the same if a breakup were instutited today.
Shouldn't it be more like:
THE (A) BABY!!!!!
You have no idea how long I've wanted to do that.:-)
I'd feel better about the IND if it wasn't for the fact it's basically the "claim jumper" division of the New York City Transit Authority. The A mimiced the IRT Ninth Ave. el and the BMT Fulton El, the D did the same with the Jerome el (which fortunately survived), the Ninth Ave. el and the Sixth Ave. el even before it stole the Culver line from the BMT (and then ripped off half the Brighton line 13 years later). Even the GG train muscled in on the territory of the Lexington and Myrtle Ave. els in Brooklyn. And the Rockaway shuttle came from the LIRR, of course.
With all that, the IND's only really unique routes -- routes that don't paralell any current or former subway, el or ex-LIRR lines are:
A -- Between 168th and 207th Sts. (and part of that is just because it's a long walk up and down to Fort Washington Ave.)
B -- Nada.
C -- Nada.
D -- Nada.
E -- 53rd and Fifth to Sutphin Blvd.
F -- 53rd and Fifth to 179th Hillside; Jay Street to Church Ave.
G -- Myrtle-Willoughby to Continental Ave.
Not much originally show by Mayor Hylan and the Board of Transportation boys, IMHO. The Green Line down in DC probably has more original track milage.
A -- Between 168th and 207th Sts. (and part of that is just because it's a long walk up and down to Fort Washington Ave.)
Not even. The A and 1/9 are very close, and only at 181st and 190th/191st are the hills an issue (the two Dyckmans are an easy walk apart) -- and there, the station elevators take care of the hills. So the city could have gotten away with just building the stations at 181st and 190th, with no actual tracks or trains!
That's because the IND was built to COMPETE with the IRT.
For me, the IND is the line since that was (and still is) the only line serving Greenpoint, Brooklyn where I grew up. The GG got me to Queens where I could switch at Queens Plaza for other IND lines into Manhattan or up to the Bronx. Only real exposure to non-IND trains was the connection to the 7 at Roosevelt for trips to Shea.
Trips to Shea???? Well you must be a Mets fan. That make is ok for you to be an IND fan in my book. But take it from me, the IND and IRT are small pototoes compared to the incomparable BMT.
>>>That's because the IND was built to COMPETE with the IRT. <<<
Correction.. The IND was built to put the IRT out of business. Evil traction interests and all, 'ya know.
Peace,
ANDEE
And it succeeded.
And even worse, it killed the BMT, just another one of the great things that even under the political grip of the evil island, gave Brooklyn its now faded independence.
For that, Hylan deserves to be on the Brooklyn shitlist, a list of people who deserve to burn for crimes against Brooklynity. I guess it's fitting that his boulevard should be in the borough that - more than any other - stole people from Brooklyn (that's kind of good though).
<<And even worse, it killed the BMT, just another one of the great things that even under the political grip of the evil island, gave Brooklyn its now faded independence.
For that, Hylan deserves to be on the Brooklyn shitlist, a list of people who deserve to burn for crimes against Brooklynity. I guess it's fitting that his boulevard should be in the borough that - more than any other - stole people from Brooklyn (that's kind of good though). >>>
I remember reading that an insane amount of the people in this country have either lived in brooklyn or their parents have lived in brooklyn. I think we've got enough support out there to make a bid for renewed independence. What do you think? (i'm sure the 2 Comrades from moscow would approve)
Talking about crimes against Brooklynity, my chem teacher in high school had a party with old friends of his on the day they heard that the guy who took the Dodgers from B'klyn died. I think they do it every year on the anniversary.
A few years ago, the New York Times Magazine section did a cover article (which i still have) on Brooklyn, and what has happened to it since the Consolidation and what might have happened had the consolidation never occured. Very interesting, inspiring stuff. Now if only we could use our numerical power in population to take control of the city government, maybe take the spotlight away from manahttan for a while.....
-West End Scott
Actually I remember a time when Brooklyn *did* take over the city - when Brooklyn Borough President Abraham Beame became mayor of NYC. I moved. Heh. Bustini bustini ...
Actually I remember a time when Brooklyn *did* take over the city - when Brooklyn Borough President Abraham Beame became mayor of NYC. I moved. Heh. Bustini bustini ...
That's nice, you moved from New York because something never happened.
Abraham Beame wasn't even FROM Brooklyn, let alone its borough president!
Now if you had elected the borough president of Brooklyn, that would have never happened.
Whoops ... got him mixed up with Abe Stark ... brain damage ... too many diesel fumes ... mommy! :)
Stir in a 20% solution of Biodiesel in with your petrodiesel.
It will undue the damage!
avid
Heh. I can't believe I was wrong about Abe Beame there - I mean the man was "MISTER Brooklyn politics" ... only Carmine DeSapio outdid that boy as a figurehead of the borough ... but then again, what can I say? I grew up in Da Bronix and all we ever did in my teen years was fight Brooklyn guys ... Mario Biaggi, where are you? :)
Maybe Vito Batista?
avid
Heh. Wonder how many here remember HIM? Brooklyn had very colorful politicians back then ... Beame didn't fit the mold at all ...
BEAME WASN'T FROM BROOKLYN!
I was wrong about him having been borough president, already fessed up to that. In the meantime, I've reserved a special highlighted copy for you at http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:fs8yjkmKr7s:www.nationalpolitical.com/column53.htm+beame+brooklyn&hl=en DO read it, it's pretty short.
BEAME WASN'T FROM BROOKLYN!
He actually was born in England, the bloody sod.
Sure you're not thinking of Abe Stark? He was the longtime Brooklyn Borough President, who was also immortalized on the outfield wall at Ebbetts Field ("Hit this sign and Ray Stark will buy you a suit").
Yep ... mentioned that in a previous post about my wires getting crossed ... in 1928, The Beame's established a home in Brooklyn's
Crown Heights-Prospect Park area, so they do have lineage in Brooklyn. But yeah, I already pled brain damage, was sentenced and did my time. :)
MP, it is not Ebbetts, it's Ebbets Field. An old Brooklyn Dodger fan can not let that pass.
Beame was Comptroller.
--Mark
Comrades from Moscow???? I'd love to here from you! We can band together and begin a socialist revolution here, this capitalistic system must go!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not one of those comrades from moscow, I was referring to (I believe) yourself, as well as that other "commie" :) Subtalker.
Not into revolutions here, I like my politics without violence.
-West End Scott
That's nice, a commie. Which reminds me, what do you get when a Commie marries a Nazi????? Instant shit.
Ah yes, Walter O'Malley.
Scott: Maybe you are too young to remember but the most effusive display of hatred between Manhattan and Brooklyn was the baseball rivalry between the Giants and the Dodgers. Fights broke out all over when those two teams met, in the stands and on the field. Manhattan had the towers, banks, Broadway, the museums, Wall Street, etc, while Brooklyn had Coney Island and, especially, the Dodgers. OK, for me they also had most of the #4 Sea Beach train, and the Brooklyn Bridge. I remember once four of us went to the Polo Grounds to see a game, and afterwards we decided to walk south to Central Park for a little fun since we were in high spirits because the Dodgers kicked the shit out of the Giants that day 16-7. A few Giant fan punks followed us and outnumbered us about 3-1. Well we were in Harlem, right in the Giants backyeard, but some friendly African=American guys took our side and threatened to tear those Giant bastard fans apart. We were wearing Brooklyn caps, and even in
Harlem the people there were overwhelmingly Dodger fans. What a day.
Good my ass! Hylan was a lowdown skunk and the only other two persons who could compare to him in infamy in Brooklyn were Robert Moses, who wouldn't give Walter O'Malley the land he needed in downtown Brooklyn for his new stadium, and O'Malley himself who, like a thief in the night, stole the Dodgers out of their heritage. They came out here where I live, but I never took to the LA Dodgers. I hold them in contempt.
"the only other two persons who could compare to him in infamy in Brooklyn were Robert Moses, who wouldn't give Walter O'Malley the land he needed in downtown Brooklyn for his new stadium"
Why should he have engaged in corporate welfare? The Dodgers would have been profitable had the stadium they were playing in been full you should be mad at the racist fans who wouldn't go to a baseball game in a black area.
"O'Malley himself who, like a thief in the night, stole the Dodgers out of their heritage."
He didn't steal the Dodgers he paid good money for them. A thought you were a capitalist not a socialist?
The last year the Dodgers were in Brooklyn they drew 1,250,000, which if I remember right, was third best attendance in the National League that year behind eventual World Series champs Milwaukee and St. Louis, and I believe their attendance was pretty much in line with what the Yankees drew in `57, when they were coming off their Series win over the Dodgers and won the pennant again. Despite the far lower prices back in the 50s, teams rarely drew as many people per season as they do today -- a meaga-big year was the 2 million-plus Cleveland had in 1948, but it wouldn't even rank among the Top 15 in all-time single-season attendance nowadays.
Their leaving Brookyln for L.A. was like Art Modell taking the Browns and heading out of St. Louis -- the fan support was there in Cleveland and Brooklyn, but the owner just saw more $$$ someplace else. And it is true that Moses perferred the Flushing Meadow site over the proposed domed stadium at Flatbush and Atlantic, and the other city officials did have that "We're New York, noone will want to leave here" attitude, but the blame is far more on O'Malley's side than on the city's, since the Dodger fans were supporting their team better than about 75 percent of the other 15 MLB franchises.
The Giants on the other hand, only drew about 650,000 their last year in the Polo Grounds, so their decision to leave for San Francisco, even though it came after O'Malley's move to L.A., was far more understandable (though in the long run, a mistake because attendance at Candlestick was always a struggle, and the Giants would have been the lone NL team in NYC and would have gotten the park Flushing Meadows if they had stayed)
Their leaving Brookyln for L.A. was like Art Modell taking the Browns and heading out of St. Louis
Are you confusing the St. Louis Browns (Baltimore Orioles) of baseball with the Cleveland Browns (Baltimore Ravens) of football?
And thanks to this post, I just realized how Baltimore likes to steal browns. :-)
Got my Browns-to-Baltimore teams and towns equasions mixed up.
Modell + Cleveland Browns - operating cash due to bad investments = Baltimore Ravens;
St. Louis Browns - Bill Veeck due to bad attendance (even with the midget stunt) = Baltimore Orioles.
J: A couple of observations about your post. First of all, the Brooklyn Dodgers did NOT draw 1,200,000 plus in their last season in Brooklyn. That was done in 1956, their next to last year there. In '57 they drew a little over a million. Secondly, the Giants announced they were moving to San Francisco on August 20, 1957, a full month and a half before O'Malley threw in the New York towel. As far as the Giants having all the National League support in NY if they had stayed, remember this, they didn't even have a majority of fan support in Manhattan, the borough where they played. In a poll of sorts in 1956, it was found that upper Manhattan supported the Yankees more in fans allegiance, and in lower, Manhattan, eeee gads, the Dodgers were the most popular team. Giants fan base had eroded to Weschester and New Jersey, and even that in small numbers. Giant fans in New York were a slow vanishing breed, while Dodger fans were gaining in great numbers.
But New York was (and would be if the Mets ever got their act together) a National League town. Given the choice after 1957 of rooting for the Giants or rooting for the Yankees, who were in the midst of a six pennant in seven years run, I think the Giants would have had their share of hold-your-noses-and-root-for-them Dodger fans come around eventually. And most of the Dodger fans did end up rooting for the Mets, a team owned for its first 20 years by a family of former part owners of the New York Giants, the Paysons (who also saw most of the readers of their newspaper, the Herald Tribune, move to Westchester and New Jersey after WWII) so some sort of truce could have been worked out between the warring factions.
J: I can tell you weren't young enough to have grown up seeing the Giants and the Dodgers have at it during their latter New York years. If you had you never would have made that statement. The Mets were a new team and their primary color was Dodger royal blue, and to many people they are the legitimate successors to the Brooklyn Dodgers, not the Los Angeles Dodgers. Keep in mind that when both teams left town after the 1957 season, Yankee attendance actually dropped in 1958. There would be no holding your nose because Dodger fans would not have followed the Giants. It worked out well for New York because the Mets, for the most part, have been a good team. I happen to root for them and I live in California.
One other point. Even though the Yankees won all those World Series in the 40's and 50's the Dodgers were the most popular team in New York. Their TV rating far outstripped the others, and except for Italian=Americans, the Dodgers had most of the Jews and others on their side. In fact, it is estimated that 95% of African=Americans were Brooklyn fans. I don't agree with that. I think it was more.
My only trip to see either of them was at age 5 months in September 1957 to the Polo Grounds (comp tickets, my parents knew Charlie Stoneham, Horace's son) so naturally I don't have too much of a recollection of the game, sad to say.
It would have been interesting to test your theory, Fred, if the Dodgers had gone to California and the Giants stayed. Dodger fans would have had the option of just not rooting for anyone and ignoring baseball all together, rooting for a team now 3,000 miles away or a team in some other city, or rooting for one of the two remaining local teams.
There were a lot of people after the major league strike of 1994-95 who said they would never go to another game again, and it took several years for attedance numbers to get back to normal. I'm sure some people angry over the `94 strike have not come back to the watch any games since then, but a lot of other have, and I'm sure a lot of Dodger fans would have never, ever rooted for the Giants. But I think by 1962 or `63 a lot of resistance would have been broken down and a certain group would have rooted for them, mainly because you just couldn't root for the *&^$#@$%* Yankees if you were a National League fan (and the 1962 NL playoff series between Watler O'Malley's Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Giants really would have tested loyalties).
J: You sound like a real baseball fan and, therefore, my hats off to you. It would have been interesting if such a scenario had taken place. I do know that none of my relatives have ever switched to the Yankees, that much I do know. Perhaps as National League fans they would have gone to the Giants. Here's one for you. Suppose the Dodgers stayed in New York and the Giants left (and they had more reason to leave than the Dodgers did), would the Giant fans have gone over to the Dodgers? That could put a little different take on things.
I think most would -- I mean, the Yanks had been beating both the Giants and Dodgers in the series over the years, though I'm sure for many it would have been the same "Hobson's Choice" Yankee fans faced during the 1986 World Series -- Mets or Red Sox?
Giant fans who had kids who came of age during the Yankees' drought between 1965-75 might have see them change leagues, especially if they moved to the suburbs, since they wwould have been less tied to root for the National League team and would have gone with the one that drew more suburban fans, and like you said, the Giants' fan base was migrating to the suburbs after WWII.
Kind of like the way Airbus Industries was set up by the governments of England, Spain and France to "compete" with Boeing, which at least has the United States government looking out for it to avoid allowing the Euros to subsidize Airbus to the max and running Boeing out of business.
Unfortunately, the IRT and BMT didn't have the feds behind them in the 1920s and 30s when Hylan, Walker and LaGuardia were building the IND and refusing to allow the privately owned lines to raise the fares above 5 cents to support maintenance and operations.
The IRT and BMT were built by people with profit on their minds, which may not be something everyone on the board agrees with, but the IND was built by people with revenge on their minds, which is why instead of expanding the areas served by mass transit in NYC the way the original two systems did, it merely duplicated or mirrored existing routes on about 80 percent of the system. That's no way to either build, or run, a railroad.
100% of the duplicated lines were and remain superior in every way.
All weather, underground, larger, and with an open end for expansion.
avid
Open end? Are you talking about the tunnel exit just before Ditmas Ave? What is so great about something all underground anyway? Entering and exiting a portal gives you a big rush, and, especially the Sea Beach with those mini=tunnels. Elevated, subway, and open cut is the way to go. Besides, did you ever see those underground trains. They were absolutely filthy.
See my post on another thread. Building a subway line along Sixth Ave. with all the costs involoved was the moronic act of a revenge-obsessed twit, with the Seventh Ave. and Broadway lines on either side of it, and was done just because Hylan wanted to take traffic away from the BMT and IRT.
And if the IND had built original routes back in the 30s, odds are there would have been more subway construction after World War II when rising real estate prices around Manhattan would have put pressure on the city to build the Second Ave. subway and tear down the els. When the east side els were ripped out in the 30s and early 40s, there was no real estate pressure to speack of -- LaGuardia just hated the els and the traction interests they symbolized.
I most certainly agree, that making a profit in not the idea behind a transit system, in general profit motive is evil and explotive.
Profit motive is just FINE for "discretionary" needs ... it's when you get down to "essential facilities" that government can do it better. I wouldn't want to see Exxxxxxxxon/Moboil defending the country, but at the same time I wouldn't want to see the government making donuts ... does that make any sense? I go bed now. :)
I worked for the government making donuts once.
And they were good donuts.
And they were the ONLY donuts as far as the eye could sea.
But then, I was a cook on an Aircraft Carrier.
Elias
Heh. On a boat though, they're an "essential facility" it's not like you could swim to another boat and get better dognuts ... ya done good! :)
Well what did you expect? A crappy system built by crappy people.
Hey! What's wrong with the BMT???
After all, the BMT gives you the Brighton Express run, the longest run on elevated tracks in the system (J), and the line that we all know and love (avoid the spit-take), the Canarsie Line. And a certain individual named Sea Beach Fred could chime in with a few diddies. Leave the BMT alone.
Now if ya wanna make fun of the IRT, well then be my guest.
>>What's wrong with the BMT???<<
Nothing really. But I just like the IND better. But I figured that I could mess around with all these guys who are so happy that DeKalb is all BMT again.
>>And a certain individual named Sea Beach Fred could chime in with a few diddies.<<
I was going for that. So far, he's a no show....
Wrong J, I'm very much in evidence and guffawing at your incredibly naive support for that IND montrosity. They had to horn in on the BMT and become almost part of it since they were third in the system's triumvirate. Hell, they couldn't even surpass the sad IRT. And you defend that line? Come on, get with it and smell the freaking coffee. You ought to no better than that.
That's right--there's plenty to laugh at with the IRT, a real second rate system if you ask me. But lay off the BMT. Our system is simply the best and that is why the IND horned in on our routes and became intertwined with the BMT, and the IRT stole our numbers. As for the Sea Beach, watch what you say to a real original BMT line, my line and the best one of all.
Since I'm a fan of the BMT I'm rejocing at the return of the old BMT trains such as the Broadway West End Line train and the Broadway Brighton Line train. Thank god that the IND is off of the BMT tracks for now.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
In the immortal words of "Five Star Genl. MacArthor And Arnold Schwartznegger,
We'll be Back! The IND!
avid
You'll be back all right. Way back where you belong as a third rate system. Hey, have you ever looked carefully at the IND line trains. They were absolutely filthy compared to BMT lines. I can remember as a kid just how dirty and dingy they were. Yuk!!!!
The BMT is back. Deal with it.
What if I can't?
There's a 12 step program. :-)
This afternoon (Saturday), I spent it the only way a true railfan should, saying farewell to th (B) & (D) in brooklyn.
I started out by crossing th GW Bridge into NY and taking the (A) down to 59th Street to transfer to the (D). Only to pull into 59th Street and miss one of two R-40 slants on the (B), so I stayed on the (A) thinking I'd catch up to it at West 4th, to no avail, got to West and watched it leave, no sweat. I stood at West for about 30 minutes videoing and shooting various (B) & (D) Trains, I finally boarded a West End Bound (B), making photo stop overs at Pacific Street, 36th Street and 55th Avnenue/Street (Which ever one it is, lol). At 55th, I ran into accomplished photography, Douglas Grotjahn. He gave me some pointers on shooting and some lovely spots along the line to shoot, including stops along the Brighton (Dave, you got some more pix comin'). I chilled out with him at 55th and also at 18th Avenue. There we snapped two trains together, and I boarded the third, he stayed behind and photographed the third. At this point I continued onto Stillwell to start my Brighton Branch Run.
After spending about 30 miuntes at Stillwell, shooting various things, I proceeded on a (D) to West 8th for a shot stop. Shot the (D) & the (F) and proceeded to Brighton Beach for a stop there. At this stop is where I started running low on time (has to head to hell, I'm mean work at NJT). So around 7:50ish, I boarded a (D) headed for Midtown (Car #2628), this was MY VERY first French R-68 that flew, I have never been on a R-68 this fast along the brighton, we were in midtown inside of 30 minutes. It was a great ending for my last ride on the Manny B North for 4 years.
That was final experience on the (B) & (D) Brooklyn Branch!!!!
Regard,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
"Thanks Doug for the Pointers"
It's only 3 years it'll be closed.
We rode the first Q train from Coney Island this morning at 12:20am. It was also the first Q over the south side of the bridge. We passed the first southbound Q at Canal St. We rode the Q up to 42nd, got kicked off, and then rode the same train set back over the bridge. That was the second southbound Q train over the bridge. While we were crossing the bridge northbound, we saw a southbound B on the north side of the bridge. This was around 1:00am. The only SubTalk'ers riding the first train were BMdoobieW (and his dad and sister), JRR4, David Greenberger, and NJcoastexpress. The rest of you are all talk and no show :) By the way, NJcoastexpress missed the last NJ Transit train home, so he'll be riding the subway system all night 'till his first train leaves in the morning. So why don't you all stand at your home stations and pass him some warm food as he comes through. Thanks.
We also saw the Grand Street Shuttle at Stillwell. It came in on the B, boarded a few MTA people, then pulled out again. We also saw two Slant40 sets on the N at Stillwell.
At least at Ave. J, the station clerk gave me a pre-made-up package of a new Mono-lingual July 2001 map, a new Q/Q timetable, and the MannyB Service Changes brochure. She asked me if the Q service went smoothly. She was concerned with dealing with the passengers on Monday. I told her they won't get confused/mad until they pull into Canal St. Also, I noticed at DeKalb Ave that those lighted signs saying if it's a tunnel or bridge or broadway train have been replaced with signs that say Brighton Lcl, Brighton Express, something for the N/R and something for the B. I think. Whatever. Time for bed.
At DeKalb Northbound it says Bridge and Tunnel and where its going because that is important in that direction. On the Southbound side it says Brighton/West End/Sea Beach/4th Ave, etc. because that's important when you're heading that way.
Oops. Sorry about that. So I guess nothing changed there? Or did it?
Um...its only been that way since...um....1920 or so.... :>)
The light-up panels are new and include the new route letters. I assume nothing behind the panel is any different.
(I think that was SB. I didn't see any change NB. Or maybe I have that reversed.)
I personally wanted to be there with bells on, BUT New Jersey Transit needed me tonight, so right now (since 10pm) I'm a work typing this, in envy of your guys that rode that first train across! ARRRRGGHHHHH!!!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.tranistalk.com
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you get a chance to ride the new Q soon. Don't work too hard :) Good night.
I had to work the N in the morring so I had to sleep. I did want to be the. Beside the first train was 12:03 out of Stillwell Ave. I looked it up myself.
Robert
It wasn't. The first revenue Q left around 12:20, give or take five minutes. An old-fashioned D left a few minutes after 12:03.
Maybe it wasn't supposed to be that way, but I was there.
12:07A, to be exact.
I was on that first southbound Q train over the Manhattan Bridge via the Broadway line (the consist, with the front car in bold, being R68’s 2740-2741-2743-2742-2726-2727-2725-2724) which I boarded at 34th Street at 1 A.M. One person asked why they couldn’t have resurrected the “T” designation for what they now call the W line. I told him I was asking myself that same question; obviously, we were all in agreement, NYC Transit management are not exactly historically inclined (pardon the latter word).
I also happened to travel on the last northbound D train over the northern Manny B. tracks, which I boarded at DeKalb Avenue at 12:39 A.M., the consist being R68’s 2580-2581-2583-2582-2588-2589-2591-2590 (I was informed that that might have been the 12:06 out of Stillwell). I had boarded that train the minute the conductor announced that “this is the last D train going over the Manhattan Bridge to 6th Avenue.” As I was travelling on that last northbound ride, there were two southbound trains – a B train of R68A’s, followed by a D train of R68’s – which had to have been the last southbound runs of those respective trains over these particular tracks for (at least) the next three years. I can also say with certainty that I savored every minute of the atmosphere as each section passed, knowing who knows when, or if, we’ll ever see such a view from such a vantage point again.
Then you must have seen NJcoastexpress at DeKalb. He was standing at the front of the Northbound platform since 11:50pm, writing down info on every train thru the station. He heard the announcement for "last D train over the bridge to 6th ave," but stayed at DeKalb, opting to wait for the first Q. Hopefully he'll post everything he wrote down. Or at least a summary.
I saw two guys at the front of that DeKalb Avenue platform at that time period in question – one with what sounded like a Russian or Eastern European accent, the other a onetime NYC Transit train operator. The former was putting down notes of train consists going through the “Bridge” track. I couldn’t tell you which one was which. I can tell you for sure, both men did pass on that last northbound D train, hoping to board, or at least be witness to, the first northbound Q. Certainly by the time I arrived back at DeKalb after being on that southbound Q, they were gone.
Yes, those were the two guys. Only prob is doing a "simple search" for "njcoastexpress" turns up nothing. Maybe I misunderstood what he said his SubTalk handle was.
I understand your point there. I just reported what I saw.
As a finale . . . I made it a point, after getting off that final northbound D train in question at 34th and 6th, to thank the conductor for the ride as it was pulling away from the station.
I finally got enough time to post the info on the trains running before flip
All times are Dekalb ave northbound
B is for bridge
T is for tunnel
For tunnel most trains just noted first car
Line reflects front end sign
Time Track Line Consist
11:52 B D 2546 - just first car
11:54 B OOS/E 2564-2565-2567?-2566-2530-2531-2529-2528
11:58 T N 3398
11:59 B B 5180-5179-5177-5178-5050-5049-5051-5052
12:03 T OOS/NIS EP007-flatcar-flatcar-flatcar-EP009
12:08 B ?D 2506-2507-2505-2504-2560-2561-2563-2562
12:13 T OOS/Q 2724-2725-2727-2726-2742-2743-2741-2740
12:15 T N 3602
12:21 B B 5080-5079-5077-5078-5088-5087-5085-5086
12:24 B D 2714-??????
12:30 T OOS/A 2636-2637-2639-2638-2524-2525-2527-2526
12:32 B OOS/Q 2744-2745-2747-2746-2734-2735-2733-2732
12:34 T N 4284
12:38 B D 2580-2581-2583-2582-2588-2589-2591-2590(C/R announced as last)
12:47 B B 5132-5131-5129-5130-5154-5153-5155-5156(T/A last B - info wia Brian's(former T/O) scanner)
12:50 B OOS/S 5624-5625-5623-5622 (Grand Street shuttle)
12:54 T N 3546
12:57 T D 2844-2845-2847-2846-2840-2841-2843-2842
That's when Brian and I jumped on it when I noticed fellow railfans on board and they confirmed that this was the Q
On board I noticed that right side was signed for Q and left side for the D
Then we took it to 42. Brian jumped off at Canal where he tried to catch Q going southbound.
Correction: that last train -- the first Q -- was on the bridge track. Otherwise we would have all gotten off. What's the point of a Q via tunnel?
I wonder why the shuttle didn't use the bypass track. It approached DeKalb from 4th Avenue.
Ain't riding no "Dubya" train ... ah-ah ... :)
I just remembered...there was one other guy on the train with us over the bridge. He got on at DeKalb with NJcoastexpress.
I started at 86-CPW around 10:40, hoping to catch one of the last weekend B's. Instead I took an A of R-44's (which, indeed, is supposed to run local at that time, much to my surprise, although the signs called it an express) to 59. I was tempted to take the D across the platform but I was hoping for a Slant on the B.
The next train in was, indeed, a Slant on the B. Back when the Slants ruled the B, I hadn't yet discovered the front window, so this was my first time through the 53rd Street curves at the window. Went through the dash around 11. JRR4 boarded and introduced himself at Broadway-Laf. At Grand the striped wooden thingy used to block off rails was between and parallel to the rails and track workers were getting ready to put it into position. Rode over the north side one last time.
Went over the bypass track -- a first for me, and possibly a last ever, at a railfan window. Express down 4th. An N of Slants was waiting at 36th, so we transferred for a change of scenery. We were discussing how signals work; the T/O stepped out of his cab, apologized for eavesdropping, and gave us a quickie lesson, after which he switched to the express track to bypass two stations.
At the yard, there were a bunch of W's waiting. A four-car trainset of R-46's signed "S / SHUTTLE / to GRAND ST" passed us in the opposite direction -- that got me all excited.
Some of the signs at Stillwell are all wrong. The N platform has one sign pointing to the transfer to the F/Q/W and another one, just beyond it, pointing to the F/N/W. There are one or two similar errors on the other platforms.
On the Q platform, a D was boarding and an empty Q (with orange Q's on most of the signs -- whoops) was waiting on the other platform. Much to our dismay, it pulled out without taking passengers. We ran into BMdoobieW and family at that point.
Over in the distance, a trainset of R-46's pulled into the W platform. Could it be? Yes, the Grand Street shuttle again! Huh? It was going the right way before when it passed us on the Sea Beach. Why did it turn around and pull into a dead-end track at Stillwell? In any case, a few minutes later it headed back out.
Another Q ran off light. Passengers were herded onto "the last D." We waited for the next train, a Q. It pulled out with only some signs changed -- in the first car, both end signs were still at D; one of the side signs hadn't been touched and the other was marked as a Q to (random upside-down north destination). I discovered that my mailbox key fits in the rollsign slots but opted not to correct the error.
Despite the two trains that went ahead, ours was the first in revenue service over the south side. We were met midway by the last Brooklyn-bound B over the north side -- that's right, revenue service over both sides of the bridge at once! We were hoping to catch the first Brooklyn-bound Q back but it pulled into Canal with us and we didn't think we'd make it across in time. Nobody in our car seemed surprised by our routing in Manhattan.
Between 14th and 34th someone entered the car (!) and fixed the signs. He didn't appear terribly amused that we were getting pictures of him while doing so.
At 42nd, I split off from the rest of the group and went over to the IRT platform. Two TA workers were hanging around the BMT mezzanine handing out new maps and service change brochures. A 2 of R-142's, running local, pulled in. SRO. Signs and announcements called it a 7th Avenue express even though it was local (and it wasn't running on 7th Avenue anymore). Announcements worked fine at the local stops, except we were instructed at 59th that we could transfer to the A, C, and D -- even though the C doesn't run when the 2 runs local.
Both full-time booths at 86th-Broadway are out of maps.
I was in Harlem yesterday, and decided to do one last ride over the Manny. B. north side. I walked ove to the station at 135th - St. Nick., and waited for the (B). Instead of R-68As, Slants pull in. I decide "Oh heck, I might as well get one last look ahead on the Dash, over the bridge, and in the labyrinth of tunnels under Flatbush Extension." And that's what I did. This was at around 1:30 P.M.
I'd wish I brought my camera for this. 'Cause the sights were great.
I was trying to get to Stillwell around 11:50 to find out from the dispatchers what exactly would be the last D. Coming all the way from Ridgewood (the round the world journey from the days of my courtship 8 years ago, plus various school car and posting assignments this year), of course hindered this. I left around 10:30, via L, A, S, D. Had to wait a long time for the L, and especially the D. I asked the C'r what time they were due at Stillwell, and he said 3 min. to midnight. (I saw a Q running th other way, and panicked, bnut it was empty, and I figured it was running light to the north end.) I had heard conflicting reports that the 2353 or 0003 from Stillwell would be the last D. I didn't want to take the chance, so at the last min. I jumped off at Brighton Beach, to catch the 2353. At Neck Rd. I went outside to ask the T/O if this was the last, and he said he thought so. So I stayed on. Not one single announcement anywhere. At DeKalb, there was perhaps one TSS toward the rear, and in the front were 3 railfans (at least one I know fom the ERA) waiting for the first Q. Crossing the bridge, the D's continued going the other way, as if there was no change occuring. It was way after 12 already. I ride the dash, and get off at 34th. after a while I see a southbound train, figuring it was the first D to 34th, but it was still going to Brooklyn. (It was now around 1) Now this one was being clearly announced as the last D to Brooklyn. So I get on, and pass something in the dash, figuring that the 0003 must have been the last. At the bridge portal, we passed the R-46 set already signed up as "Shuttle" (The front sign using the word, not the bullet). I see a Q passing the other way on the other side, and the entire front (end and side) had "D", and the rest was orange Q's. I get off at DeKalb, to cross to the other side for the Q, and my thrill at riding the last Northside train was dashed by a B passing in the bypass. I was hoping it was a light transfer, but it had riders. I didn't know the B ran that late, and even then, after a certain time it would stop at DeKalb and run local, woudn't it?
The Q had all orange signs, except for the ends. The north destination was 57th, but the empty Q I had earlier seen had almost all yewllow Q's, and said "Times Square". All the Q's I saw today said 57th St., though theay were all yellow).
Two light Q's ran from Stillwell to Manhattan. IIRC, the second one had lots of orange Q side signs. That identifies that one, I think. Then again, the first in-service Q had D's on all the ends and on the left side of the front car, but I don't think we passed a D on the bridge.
We did pass a B on the bridge. That was the one that went through the bypass.
When I was riding the Q from Coney Island,My train was held at Atlantic Avenue because the MTA is still finishing electrical work on the bridge.When my train arrived at Dekalb avenue,I saw a W train across the platform because they were delayed at Pacific for electrical problems.It took us 30 minuites to cross the bridge(10 minuites longer than usual).At Canal I had to get off because the train was
running local.I got a W which skipped 5th Avenue and ran express in Queens on the way back to Brooklyn(I decided to ride the Q and W round trip because I was pissed by te way,the W train I was on skipped 49th street).
There were apparently signal problems on the bridge this morning. (Great timing, no?) When I rode by around 2:30 or 3 in the afternoon, there were three track workers about 1/3 of the way over from Brooklyn.
There still seemed to be alot of track workers around the bridge. Cmmon guys finish the job!
A few more observations:
At 86th IND, a rat joined the passengers waiting on the platform. The TA has thoughtfully provided a hole in the platform wall so the rats don't have to use the turnstiles, since they might have trouble reaching the MetroCard slot.
While we were waiting at Stillwell, I spotted a train approaching one of the Q tracks from the yard. I didn't see a destination sign. From a distance, it didn't look like an R-68. It certainly didn't look like an R-40. It seemed to have a small rectangular bit of light coming through the window, so I proclaimed that it must have been an R-62 gone way off-course. Nobody believed me. Turns out it was one of those work cars that look like defenestrated R-62's. (Okay, okay, I know, that word means "with their heads thrown out the window," not "without their windows removed." But it should mean the latter. Just think -- the same word could be used for your computer if you switched from that Microsoft operating system to Linux.) At least I was close!
When we pulled into Canal last night, the red platform signs had just been recently removed. They were sitting at the west end of the bridge-bound platform.
The curve from the bridge into the BMT mainline is surprisingly gentle. It's posted, I think, 22 (it's a bit hard to tell through those fuzzy windows -- I'll check again tomorrow on a Slant). All those who complained that the IND is straighter than the BMT, I'm afraid you're wrong.
As of last night, the new station entrance at 41st and 7th was nearing completion. As of this evening, nothing had changed.
At Times Square IRT, two or three track workers were strolling up and down the uptown local track, shining their flashlights at the track. I thought locals might be diverted to the express track, but they wouldn't be able to switch back until 72nd, and a GO already had the southbound local track out of commission (for work at TSq), so that would leave no service at all to three stations (well, the IND would still stop at 59th). The track workers just got out of the way for the arriving local (2).
Well, I'm back in Atlanta now. Was really neat for a Georgia boy to run into another SubTalker in the subway. What are the odds?
On the night of the bridge flip? Pretty high.
Glad you could make it.
Yeah, I expected a lot more SubTalkers to be there for the first train over the bridge. I think what it is, is that a lot of them don't really live in New York City, they just pretend they do....but seriously, I think there are a lot of "out-of-town" railfans and that is great. I just always assume that everyone posting here lives in NYC, but that's just not true. But in the end JRR4 kinda destroys my theory by coming all the up from Georgia to do the Bridge Flip. It was nice meeting you.
I would have come, but...
That time of day?!? I'm 16, not 26. I don't stay out that late...
You should have asked the TA to delay the flip another ten years.
No, really? I had you pegged as being a thirty-something. :) Seriously, ya, if I were 16, I probably wouldn't have done the flip. But then again, it was "only" midnight, you do live in NYC, and Coney Island was full of people coming back from the Amusement Park. If you were gonna do the flip with someone, maybe a little older, would you have gone? I probably wouldn't have done it myself, but I knew I was meeting at least one person at Coney. And as it turned out, I also dragged my dad and sister (who were both visiting me) out to ride the first train over. Oh, for the record, I'm 21.
No, really? I had you pegged as being a thirty-something.
Prime evidence that a person's "maturity" is unrelated to cosmic events regarding the Earth's orbit around the sun.
Well, I guess I hold the record for the longest traveled to be with you guys Sunday AM. All the way from Atlanta. BTW, I'm 36. JR
then I guess I qualify as a person that stayed longest in subway system after the original trip
After coming with David to Avenue J. Headed back to 42. The again rode to Coney on the Q and came back to Manhattan on N to WTC.
I left the NYC Subway system at 5:15 AM
Hey, I'm Brian, not David! :0 He left us at 42nd. It was late at night. You were half asleep. Easy mistake to make :) I forgive you.
I also got your handle wrong. I thought it was NJcoastexpress
I stay out until 1AM on nights of school dances (17, 16 last time there was a dance).
Overnight service is a necessity in NYC...
First of all congrads to all new t/o's from the street.You have made it through school car and know how the system is suppose to run. You will find out now how the system is really run! lol.I'm a conductor in the b division and would like to offer some tips.
1)Talk to your conductor! be sure to introduce yourself and let he/she know that your new .alot of c/r's including myself are willing to help you with any questions you might have .
2)Most important thing to a c/r? put me on the board. take your time the first few weeks,keeping the schedule is important but not as important as safe operation.Remember coming in 5 min late looks better then coming in 5 min early.
3)If the train goes BIE let your c/r know if it is something on the roadbed or a emer. brake activated.If you put the train into emergency by accident ie hand slipped off controller give the c/r 2 buzzer signals.Communication will stop the c/r from calling in simple mistakes that the t/a will make into a big problem.
4)Think teamwork!help me out and i'll help you out/door problems/finding a pulled cord (emerg brake)/isolating a car/ the faster we get it done the quicker we are on the move and can get off the train.
5)Last but not least! Remember even when a tss is not on your train you are still being watched! On every train you operate there is at least one person who is in a bad mood and waiting for you to do something so he/she can feel better by reporting you.
Stick to the rule book until after your probation is over!
HOPE TO WORK WITH YOU SOON GOOD LUCK!!!!!!
As an old timer, glad to hear there's still the old spirit of cooperation out there. For you new guys, THIS is the way to survive your trip. Be good to your fellow crewmember and they'll save your buns some day. BOTH of you go down when one does so it's in everybody's best interest to work together. THANKS for putting that out there!
I am not a TA employee but I cringe a little when I see a post apparently implying that supervisors are all jerks and everybody is out to get you.
I know that there is some sobering reality underlying this, but the last time I checked, supervisors were people too. Is it possible some of them are sincere and want to do the best job they can to help their subordinates?
There's an odd additional layer to civil service - I've been through it on both sides, as hourly employee and "signing time cards" which makes you more responsible than politicians for the outcome of whatever. If you sign a time card, you're "supervisory."
What makes civil service different from the "private sector" is that there are all sorts of "rules," many of them written by desk flyers seeking to justify their existence. Some are reasonable and logical, many are written SOLELY for butt covering, and can be arbitrary and capricious. Civil service positions exaggerate all of the stereotypes of the outside world since the rules are there to be enforced, and there is a perception that civil servants "get away with stuff" by nature of the outside perceptions.
Therefore, it is EXPECTED that X number of disciplinary actions will take place per year and that if a manager falls short of that number, then they're not managing. There is terrific pressure to "quantify and qualify" everything and this in turn has both sides of that fence scurrying or management appears to be lax.
Bottom line, if there's an incident that can result in disciplinary action, it will be gone for, just to make the "numbers" look good. It's sorta like those books of speeding tickets constables and police officers are handed every month. While there is no "quota" it's not good to turn in a book at the end of the month that isn't empty.
Unlike the "real world" though, all of this is there to keep the politicians from too much "oversight" of a political operation like the MTA and others like it. Agencies that "do the numbers" tend to get left alone ... so is this malicious management or stupid employees? Greedy unions? Nope. It's just the way the game is played in the civil service reality ... keep your head low and wear a jockstrap. :)
Sound advice. All newbies should read "time's" post a few times over.
I'm wearing a tye-dye t-shirt with dark green shorts and a light blue yankees hat...I hope to have fun on this one!
Make that a US Open 2000 Shirt...I'm completely random:-)
On Saturday, one of the UP escalators at 63rd/Lex was not working. I had to carry my bike up that flight of stairs, and was pissed. But I was happy to see the rest of the escalators were working.
I asked a TA employee who was working upstairs by the token booth, giving out free transfers to the 6 train, if he knew about the malfunctioned escalator, and if he could do anything about it.
He told me that the passengers are the ones who are responsible, because they press an emergency button to turn the escalators off.
When I returned to the station a few hours later, everything was fine.
But I'd sure like to know the level of a mind that would turn off an escalator in the subway.
What are they going to do at Times Square subway entrance with well-lit subway signs? Are they going to leave them they way they are or going to add they (Q),, and W?
The building where the fancy entrance was at Times Square (the Times Square Brewpub was the main tenant) had a pretty serious fire (at least, it looks like a fire-- could just be normal demolition). The whole upper level is gone. Not sure what's going on at the entrance to the subway but I bet that sign is the least of their worries.
There's another entrance, with similar flashy signage, across the street.
The building where the fancy entrance was at Times Square (the Times Square Brewpub was the main tenant) had a pretty serious fire (at least, it looks like a fire-- could just be normal demolition). The whole upper level is gone. Not sure what's going on at the entrance to the subway but I bet that sign is the least of their worries.
It was normal demolition. A new skyscraper will be rising on the site, complementing the Conde Nast, Retuers and Ernst and Young buildings on the other corners (the former Knickerbocker Hotel building across Broadway, with the former private entrance to the shuttle, will remain).
The lure was just too much for me to wait until Monday. So I hopped a D at Bedford Pk about 7:45 this a.m. and went as far as 59th. I figured I could get my cup of joe and hop the Q at 57th. I knew the changes were limited today, but just the thrill of riding the B'way Exp and the Canal St lower level again was all I needed today. First I noticed the lack of signage hanging from the platform ceilings, unlike many other stations in the system. A platform conductor agreed that this station was an information nightmare. Second, the Q only ran to 42st; no mention was made of this. One poor sap actually waited nearly an hour before he asked this same platform man where the Q was. I was delighted to wow this platform man with stories of pre-Chrystie St. He had no idea!
I took an N to 42nd and hopped a waiting Q. The t/o was timid, to say the least. I'm sure it was unfamiliar territory to many but this was ridiculous. But it was a thrill just the same. Never ever thought I'd be crossing the bridge from the Canal St lower level again, albeit the opposite side from what I am used to. The view from the front of
R68 was not as clear as I would have liked, but it was sufficient.
Crossed over at Dekalb and caught an entering R68 Q. This ride was just the opposite of the trip south. Good operator, somewhat fast cars; signals seemed faster too. And the staccato of the flat wheels under car 2883 made it all just right.
Joe C.
I'm likely going to be in NYC in early August for a few days. On previous trips I've bought a weekly pass but since this trip will only be for three days, what is the next best thing? A day pass? And how much are they? Also, what new things do I have to see on this trip. I'm reading about the Q on the bridge - are those the reopened south side Manhattan Bridge tracks? I haven't been keeping up to date on SubTalk for awhile and don't know what's been going on.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
A day pass ("Fun Pass") costs $4 and is available from vending machines and out-of-system vendors but not from token booths. It's valid from the time of first use until 3:00am the following calendar day.
Yes, the south side tracks reopened early this morning. A few of us rode the first revenue train over. The north side tracks are now closed.
In addition to the Bridge flip, you should check out the new R142's on the #2 or the #6.
What this new W line all about? When did it start up?
The W replaces the B in Brooklyn. It runs from Stillwell up to Astoria Ditmars Blvd (weekdays) and just up to Pacific St. on weekends. The B continues to run down from the Bronx, but only as far south as 34th St and 6th Ave. You can transfer between the B and W at 34th at 6th and Broadway. This changeover happened Saturday night at Midnight.
I wonder if the 6700+ series wil show up on the 5 line?
you betcha the #2 order will probaly go up to 6671-6700
yes it will. there is almost enough R-142's to run the whole two line without the Redbirds on a weekend schedule. unfortunately some are still at 207 getting modifications on the braking system and what not to give it the ability it already has of running for a long time in service without a problem. the ones that are still in 207 will be back on the 2 sometime around mid september. also, Kawasaki R-142A 7211-20 is having problems and will be out for a while. it is still sitting in Unionport waiting to be fixed. should be back around the same time or earlier.
#7266-7270 may soon join those units. I rode them on the #6 today, and the lead motor, #7270, and the second car, #7269, didn't have that annoying "whining" sound that they usually do. I assumed then that the motors were shot for some reason (they were probably shot to begin with.)
I didn't know that there was another option order for the Kawasaki R142As. The numbers are 7731-7850. The info is posted on the R142 roster on this site.
yes they do but i don't think they will be coming anytime soon because the ta might not need them.
The cars will come in right behind the base order of 400 cars.
Why would NYCT not need them?
David
i'm assuming because they are only gonna be running on the 6. the 6 doesn't need all those cars when they are only getting one model. well you know what happens when people assume. i made an ASS out of U and ME. more likely i just made an ass out myself alone.
Can anyone explain how express stops are determined? For years I've been trying to understanding why the D doesn't stop at YANKEES STADIUM
during rush hour. It's the only transfer point for the 4!!!! and noe on the new map even the B does not stop there.
Express stops can't be added on a whim. (They can be removed but they rarely are.) The typical local station has the express tracks running between the local tracks with nowhere to platform.
As for transfer points, many on the IRT and BMT weren't transfer points until the IND was built. In some cases (like the example you cite), even the IND didn't bother making its new transfer points express stations. I suspect this is due to the anticompetitive nature of the IND. Just look now at the remarks about the bridge flip: everyone (okay, not everyone) who needs to transfer to the IND in Manhattan is complaining but everyone who uses the BMT and IRT is cheering.
I thought it was always a key stop and transfer point while I was a kid. and then all of a sudden when I started working downtown after high school, It went express from 182-183 to 145. You at least used to be able to switch to the c/b for local service that would stop there, but now you can't even do that according to the new mta map.
Instead of just walking down the block to the 205th station I ended up walking over to jerome and getting directly on the 4.
It is a key stop now, but when the IND was built, the idea was not to create convenient interdivisional transfers -- if anything, the opposite was the goal.
I don't know where you're looking on the new map. Rush hours (when the peak direction D bypasses the stop) the B still stops there. I have the new map in front of me. What gives you the idea that the B won't be stopping there anymore?
The map on the MTA website only shows the black dot on the 4 line and no transfer circle on the concourse line or the route notations at tha tpoint
Look more closely. There are two orange lines, one for the express (peak direction rush hour D) and one for the local (anti-peak direction D, non-rush hour D, and rush hour B). A single dot is placed through the 4 and the IND local. (The printed map, for some reason, has one dot through both and another dot through just the 4. It looks like the 4 stops twice at the same station.)
The online map doesn't have route indications at any of the stations.
161st Street is a local stop, with two side platforms, as it has been since the IND Concourse Line opened in 1933 (which is after the stadium opened, in case anyone's interested). The station has three tracks, with the middle track available for express service. During the AM and PM rush hours, D trains operate express in the peak direction and B trains run local.
When the line opened, the IRT was privately operated, and there was no free transfer between what is now the #4 train and the IND at 161st Street. It should also be remembered that baseball season does not last all year, that the Yankees are only home for half the season (and the stadium is hardly ever used except for Yankee games), and that not all of the games they are home for are weekday night games. Therefore, the fact that D trains run express in the PM rush and bypass 161st Street has only a minimal effect on Yankee game riding. (Moreover, local supervision can order D trains to run local and serve the station if necessary to help out with game crowds.)
As for there being no mention of the B stopping at 161st Street on the new map, I haven't seen the new map, but if that's the case it's an error on the map -- the B will be stopping there weekdays.
David
Well, on nights of Yankees home games, all trains on the Concourse run local past Yankee Stadium. Doesn't help you get your transfer to the #4 on other nights, though.
That question baffles me !
When Yankee Stadium first opened, the IRT Woodlawn-Jerome line was already there. So the "el" came first.
On the IND Concourse subway, both Yankee Stadium and 155th St./8th Ave (Polo Grounds) are both local stops. Perhaps the IND believed that it would defeat the purpose of express service to have two express stops serving two rival baseball stadiums. These stations are too close for comfort. I don't know what year the physical transfer was opened, but I know ticket type transfers were issued.
BTW - I haven't used this transfer in a year, are the escaltors finally running ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Sent my check last Saturday and this past Friday I received my ticket for the above trip.
On the back of my ticket was a number in the 300's. Don't know if each location has a consecutively numbered batch or if they're all being mailed from one spot.
If it is from one spot, then you'd better send you money ASAP because it's going to close out.
It appears to be an interesting trip. Several Sub-talkers are going and a charity will benefit from the proceeds. A great deal...lets hope that Todd Glickman can deliver perfect day weatherwise.
Here it is:
-Harry
www.nycrail.com- over
1500 NYC subway photos
That proves it! Our president has the IQ of a hippo.
Hippos are millions of years older than man and have survived in the most harsh of enviornments for that time. I'd say that our President being compared to a hippo is a compliment for him.
BTW, thanks for the $500, Dubya ...
$500? I only got $300 (which is going towards the $900 of the $1,500 I owed the IRS this year, since I did the credit card installment thing to free up some vacation money).
Head of households (married with at least 1 child/primary wage earners)get $500.
Head of households (married with at least 1 child/primary wage earners) get $500.
Actually, we're getting $600 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My bad. Wonder why I'm only getting $500 and wifey only $300 ...
Who said--------"Some days you pay the man & some days the man pays you?? I'am getting $340.00 George be the man???
Chris,
Why do you want to insult the hippos?
It's interesting that liberals use ad hominem attacks and wild exageration to insult politicians they disagree with. Conservatives, however, are excoriated for merely stating facts about liberal politicians, like "our previous president was, while president, an adulterer with a person only 3 years away from being a minor."
The "hippo" jokes are one more sterling set of examples of the former.
How about returning to transit issues?!
"our previous president was, while president, an adulterer with a person only 3 years away from being a minor."
Conservatives just love to take non-crimes and make a big deal about them. They are hypocrites who like to moralize against activities they themselves perform.
As for Clinton's activities, nothing he committed was a crime against anybody other than his wife. The Wrongpublicans made themselves look like idiots for impeaching him for that. And Lewinsky may have been "3 years away from being a minor," but that means JACK SQUAT (you should be aware of that value, it is the intelligence of the average conservative). She was able to consent to what she did with him, and would have been able to regardless of some magic cosmic event that occurs after the Earth moves around the sun a certain number of times.
And since when was 24 three years away from being a minor? Does 24-18=3 in conservative land?
Sorry for the late answer.
His affair with her started when she was 21. I did not discuss laws or impeachment. All I stated was a fact and you went off, as expected, on an ad hominem attack.
BTW: Wait until you grow up; 30 years from now the Youth of America will find something new to champion that you find abhorrent (like brother/sister marriage, or bestiality, or euthanasia decided by a third party, or something I can't even imagine yet). We'll see how you like being called a number of synonyms for a foolish person with no right to have an opinion.
It's interesting that liberals use ad hominem attacks and wild exageration to insult politicians they disagree with. Conservatives, however, are excoriated for merely stating facts about liberal politicians, like "our previous president was, while president, an adulterer with a person only 3 years away from being a minor."
The "hippo" jokes are one more sterling set of examples of the former.
How about returning to transit issues?!
Nice pics. Did you encounter any confused riders?
Everyone in brooklyn was fine with it. In midtown things got a little hairy..
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
I could imagine that.
I predict that northern B and D lines will have more confusion than Brooklyn BMT lines. The B and D lines will appear to be completely normal.....until you get to 34th St. Riders heading south of here will be the ones who will be lost in space. Brooklyn BMT riders will notice the changes the minute they get to the subway station.
But B/D riders can't stray too far off their intended path. They'll get kicked off at 34th and will quickly discover the F/S for points south on 6th Avenue or the Q/Q/W for Brooklyn.
But they'll be lost, trust me. The advertisements of the new service has emphasized the changes in Brooklyn, not the Bronx/Upper Manhattan. I wonder how many of these riders think that the service changes don't affect them because they don't want to go to Brooklyn.
Stake out a good spot at 34th St. tomorrow and watch ...
They'll be lost, certainly, but less so than those forced to confront unannounced GO's.
I'm sure some 1 passengers heading to Brooklyn will be kind of annoyed today. They'll try to get off at 59th, but southbound trains are running express, so they'll have to transfer back up at 42nd. Then they'll finally get the D, which will only take them as far as 34th, where they'll have to transfer to a train they could have gotten 30 minutes earlier at 42nd.
See the headlines today. It's as though the editors were wishing for a calamity.
1010 WINS had a bunch of idiots saying that they didn't know it was happening. They're making it out like it's the end of the world. Fucking morons.
-Hank
The media don't sell papers and get viewer/listenership without stirring up a scandal.
I hate to say it, but anyone who rides the trains with any regularity and any brains would have known of the changes by now. Still, the media's got to find the ignorant screamers and try to raise a scandal.
Really, as we all know, it ain't toooo hard to adjust. If live in Brooklyn and work on 6th or 5th Avenues, just take the Q or W and walk one extra block, take a look at the clean Times Square. Or, if you were coming from the Bronx to Chinatown, just switch to the BMT at 34th or Times Square. That's tough, right?
That's IMPOSSIBLE for me! How am I supposed to keep my nail appointment with Chu Lin at Grand St AND my hair appointment with Mr. Sven at Atlantic Ave? HELP me!!! I've never HEARD of the IRT!
-Hank :)
(Tongue planted firmly...)
You can see 30 more pictures of the new W and Q trains as well as current pictures of Stillwell Ave. at my website www.nycrail.com!
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Nice Photos there! And how about the (Q) and also? Want to see that.
Then visit my website and go to the R68 and Coney Island pages.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
I have searched the R-68 and Coney Island pages, and I have found no new Qs.
My bad- There are only two pictures of the new Q and it is purely their rollsigns. I had thought I had taken more.
Sorry to be misleading.
-Harry
Search Coney Island itself and you'll see lots of new Q's (not to be confused with New Lots).
Isn't R68 #2915 assigned to the Franklin Shuttle?
Nope...Franklin Shuttle has 2916-2924 (9 cars).
David
Gotcha. Thanks.
ah yes ! with a hippo...... a slow ......hippo !!! .........lol !!!........
your photography is excellent i would like to add as well !!
@ ah yes ! with a hippo...... a slow ......hippo !!! .........lol !!!........
DAMN! Clear as a bell! Digital camera or scanned image?
Digital Camera- and a relatively cheap one at that...
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Yeah, some day my digital photos will be as nice as that! I'm hoping for that day to come by the end of this week, annakownna I'm leaving NYC in two weeks and won't be living here again for at least a year or maybe more :(
7731-7850 represent a second 120-car option to the R-142 order from BOMBARDIER!
Sure, there will be a break in the numbering but that's what makes rosters interesting. And it was nice to see the general roster updated.
The totals are: Bombardier-1,030, Kawasaki 520.
Hopefully this will be corrected.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Correction Noted.
Thank You!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
getting hired as a provisional so and so....whats that mean?
Welcome to civil service ... from the OFFICIAL documents of the NYS Dept of Civil Service:
Non-Permanent Appointments
The two major types of non-permanent appointments are temporary appointments and provisional appointments. Basically, a
temporary appointment is an appointment to a position that is established for only a temporary, short duration or an
appointment to a permanent position that is temporarily vacant. A provisional appointment, on the other hand, is a stopgap
appointment to a vacant position pending the establishment of an appropriate eligible list from which a permanent appointment
to such position can be made.
Provisional
CSL § 65.1
A provisional appointment may be made when no appropriate eligible list of at least three people willing to accept
appointment is available to fill a vacancy in a permanent position in the competitive class. In such case, the appointing officer
nominates a person for the provisional appointment. If the nominee is certified by the Department of Civil Service as
qualified, he/she may be approved as a provisional appointee until an appointment can be made from an appropriate eligible
list. The qualifications of the nominee are determined on the basis of a review and evaluation of his/her training, experience and
other qualifications measured against the minimum requirements for the position. No written, oral or performance test is
normally required. The appointing authority must attest that the provisional nominee meets the minimum qualifications for the
position.
CSL § 65.2 65.4
The law provides that no provisional appointment may continue for more than nine months. Successive provisional
appointments of the same individual may not be made to the same position after the nine-month period, unless an exam is not
provided in a timely manner. If an examination fails to produce a list adequate to fill positions held on a provisional basis, new
provisional appointments may be made to any positions remaining unfilled. A former provisional appointee may be given such
new provisional appointment. However, retention of a provisional who has served for nine months or longer and who has
passed an examination which results in a "non-mandatory" list will result in such person becoming permanent, subject to
satisfactory completion of the probationary period.
CSL § 65.3
A provisional appointment must be terminated within 60 days following the establishment of an appropriate list. However, an
application may be made to the Department of Civil Service for a waiver of this requirement. A waiver may be sought if there
are provisional appointees to be replaced by permanent appointments from a newly established list and the appointing officer
believes that terminating all provisional appointees within that time would disrupt or impair essential public service. The
Department of Civil Service may be asked to authorize the termination of the employment of various provisional appointees
at stated intervals, in other words, on a staggered basis. In no case may the employment of any provisional be continued
longer than four months following establishment of the eligible list.
Tenure Rights
CSL § 80.1 80-a.1 CSR § 55(d) 4.10
A temporary or provisional employee has no tenure rights and, therefore, may be removed at will. In the event of
abolition of positions, all temporary or provisional employees in the titles involved must be laid off before permanent
employees. Temporary and provisional employees have the same salary rights as permanent employees. If a person is given a
temporary appointment from an eligible list, eligibility for permanent appointment from such list is unaffected. If a permanent
employee is given a temporary or provisional appointment or promotion to a higher level position in his/her department, the
employee may be placed on leave from his/her former lower grade permanent position.
>>>Congress gave only a pittance to the LIRR-Grand Central connection and nothing at all to the
Second Ave. subway<<<
The New York State legislature and the US Congress routinely give short shrift to mass transit in favor of road building projects. Amtrak has been a basket case for years.
Can it be boiled down to a simple equation:
In urban areas, at least, auto owners have more money, more clout and more votes; mass transit riders do not; therefore mass transit can expect scant funding?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The uncontrolled growth of suburbs and cheap gas and autos had a lot to do with it. Affluent people bought a patch of the American Dream, and with it the right and need to use automobile transportation. Today the average suburban family driving SUV's would think it nuts if you suggest to them that perhaps others don't appreciate having to breathe in their pollution and suffer the results of their ripping up natural areas and then flushing their toilets into someone else's drinking water (this is exactly what could happen to the Ramapo River's watershed). And city dwellers' taxes subsidize this! We are not yet at a point where people with influence see this as a problem.
Many in high government see public transit as communist. And America has had a long and colorful history of defying communism. May sound all right at first, until one takes a look at the systems of London, Paris, Moscow, and Hong Kong. And then, one also has to take a look at how much sway the airline industry has over everything. And the auto industry.
That's why the future of public tranist in this nation is grim at best. Highways will get increasinly congested, and politicians will keep reqesting the construction of more highways that will keep tearing up neighborhoods and rural areas. All to satisfy a politically affluent voting body.
You hit the nail right on the head. America has a history of the "fend for yourself" attitude and views stuff from affordable housing, mass transit, and social services as Communist. And sadly most people who vote are too stupid to see what's really going on.
Rich continue to get richer at a rate most of us can only dream of. They exploit the worker and give them pennies compared to what they make. Now the rich American companies exploit workers around the world. That's why you've been hearing about the violent protests at the World Economic Summits. And with each one they are getting larger and more violent. It's not if there's going to be a revolution, it's when. We will get better public transit in the USA, once gas prices jump so high SUV's won't be able to be driven. Traffic will get so bad emergency vehicles can't get through. Catastophic events may occur, which may be the only way the attention of our leaders may be brought onto public transit. The situation cannot continue forever.
The policy of our government should be the following
1. SUV's will no longer be allowed in the mainstream auto market, as strict guidelines will be in place to allow only economy class cars.
2. Funding for mass transit projects will come from new road taxes and gas taxes, as well as the tax hike on people making over $200,000.
Light rail, heavy rail, and bus projects would be studied in all urban and suburban areas.
3. Congested urban areas will be subject to massive auto restrictions. In order to bring your car into an urban area, you will have to prove that the trip cannot be done any other way, or face a $20 charge for entering the city.
I do believe Mexico City and Singapore are a few cities that already practice car use limitations.
4. NIMBY's will be abolished, as the State and the will of a majority of the people will determine land use, not the small population that lives by the land.
Just a few policies that I think should be instituted. Will they happen? Well most likely not, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
1. As much as I hate SUVs (mainly because of the assholes that drive them), we live in a free market and it's the automakers right to sell whatever they want.
2. Never heard of a "new road tax," I assume you meant sales taxes that go toward the building of roads. I agree with you about using gas and sales tax for mass transit. The gas tax should be raised by a lot, too. The tax hike for people makng over $200,000 is stupid. People have a right to make as much money as they can (legally and ethically, of course), and I plan on taking full advantage of that one day.
3. Good idea, with some more thought put into it, it would work.
4. Sure, NIMBYs can get in the way and mess up projects, however, I'd rather have NIMBYs than a totalitarian state where no one can voice opposition to anything.
The tax hike for people makng over $200,000 is stupid. People have a right to make as much money as they can (legally and ethically, of course), and I plan on taking full advantage of that one day.
People making over $200,000 per annum already pay more in taxes.
If one taxed people's income above that point, nobody would bother to get an occupation that normally earns that much money, occupations that are important to society. There is no way you can have everybody equal. People are NOT equal, and they never will be. People can earn as much money as their merits allow them. That's how society works, and it can't work otherwise. Every attempt at creating a society that works otherwise has failed miserably (cough USSR cough).
Well, everyone should also keep in mind that up in that income bracket, the "$200,000" is TAXABLE income ... there's plenty of ways of moving remuneration to means that aren't "taxable income" such as capital gains, paper and other non-taxable means. Don't cry for them, there's plenty of ways to get your taxable income WAY below that, and legally.
>>> The policy of our government should be the following
1. SUV's will no longer be allowed in the mainstream auto market, as strict guidelines will be in place to allow only economy class cars. <<<
Comrade! You are so right. Things like SUV's should be limited to important party officials who need them to get to their dachas in the Hamptons. After all there is no excuse for 90 minute traffic delays on Friday afternoon.
>>> 2. Funding for mass transit projects will come from new road taxes and gas taxes, as well as the tax hike on people making over $200,000. Light rail, heavy rail, and bus projects would be studied in all urban and suburban areas. <<<
Not just a tax hike, we will confiscate the property of all those reactionary capitalists and their running dog lackeys making over $200,000.00. And in our first five year plan we can assign all workers housing near their places of employment and reduce the need for so much transit. This will make it easier for railfans loyal to the party to travel on less crowded trains.
>>> 3. Congested urban areas will be subject to massive auto restrictions. In order to bring your car into an urban area, you will have to prove that the trip cannot be done any other way, or face a $20 charge for entering the city. <<<
Better yet, no one is allowed to enter an urban area without permission of a party leader. And instead of a $20.00 charge, we will confiscate the vehicle used. This will help reduce congestion.
>>> 4. NIMBY's will be abolished, as the State and the will of a majority of the people will determine land use, not the small population that lives by the land. <<<
Of course, comrade, the NIMBYs will be liquidated along with the greedy landlords and other economic parasites. This will allow the downtrodden of Seacliff to arise and flourish in a workers' paradise. :-^)
IVAN
Better yet, no one is allowed to enter an urban area without permission of a party leader. And instead of a $20.00 charge, we will confiscate the vehicle used. This will help reduce congestion.
What vehicle? The vehicles will be posessed by the government so they can be used by the pigs party leaders for the good of all the animals people in the farm country.
Of course, comrade, the NIMBYs will be liquidated along with the greedy landlords and other economic parasites. This will allow the downtrodden of Seacliff to arise and flourish in a workers' paradise. :-^)
Liquidated? You are cruel like a capitalist! We will send them to labor camps in Alaska so that they may work producing goods for the good citizens of our worker's paradise.
IVAN
OLD MAJOR
Okay you George Orwell wannabe's, that's enough propoganda for today! ;-)
That's propiganda.
You know, there's a biig difference between actions taken to stave off total urban breakdown caused by excessive car traffic and totalitarian communism.
Some of the suggestions may have been a little extreme, but the idea is perfectly sound.
They do that now!!! its called "meter maids" some call them parking enforcement some are called pay parking lots with FEES so high only the most well off can afford it. Dont forget laws (ordinances) in many cities that you cannot sleep in your car even if thats all
you got !! & the crap asociated to it when and where you can park & cannot ( so called anti lawn parking ordinances ) ....
so much for " park and ride " ...lol !!!
They do that now!!! its called "meter maids" some call them parking enforcement some are called pay parking lots with FEES so
high only the most well off can afford it. Dont forget laws (ordinances) in many cities that you cannot sleep in your car even if
thats all you got ( your car to sleep in ) DONT FORGET THE RED LIGHT TRAFFIC CAMS !!!
& the crap asociated to it when and where you can park & cannot ( so called anti lawn parking ordinances ) ....
so much for " park and ride " ...lol !!!
"That's why the future of public tranist in this nation is grim at best."
Really? So I must be imagining all those light rail lines that have been built in Western cities that everybody said would never have rail transit.
*Sacramento
*San Jose
*Los Angeles
*San Diego
*Denver
*Dallas
*Saint Louis
And I must be imagining the full park-and-ride lots at the stations of these new systems.
And, since all politicians and voters are highway-happy and want to starve public transit, I must be imagining that EVERY ONE of those systems have built, are building, or are in the final stages of planning, expansions of their light rail.
Don't confuse the fact that nothing can get done in New York, or the loud squawking of a few well-organized anti-railers like Tom Delay or Wendell Cox, with a general anti-transit mood. Highway congestion has driven (pardon the pun) a lot of people in a lot of cities that didn't think they were a New York or Chicago or Boston to realize the need for good transit. For example, who would have thought 20 years ago that the busiest Amtrak corridor outside the Northeast, at 1.5 million riders a year and rising, would be in Southern California, the originator of the freeway and drive-through everything?
That's why the future of public tranist in this nation is grim at best.
Really? So I must be imagining all those light rail lines that have been built in Western cities that everybody said would never have rail transit ... And I must be imagining the full park-and-ride lots at the stations of these new systems.
Don't confuse the fact that nothing can get done in New York, or the loud squawking of a few well-organized anti-railers like Tom Delay or Wendell Cox, with a general anti-transit mood.
It's refreshing to see a non-New Yorker's perspective on this issue. People on this board and elsewhere are constantly bemoaning the fact that the federal government won't give New York sufficient transit funds. While there may be a number of reasons, it's entirely possible that politicians are not as stupid as commonly thought. They very well might have figured out that giving huge amounts of federal money to New York for transit construction will accomplish nothing - the money will disappear into an endless round of "studies" and not a thing will be constructed. It's totally unreasonable to expect Congress to keep throwing good (taxpayers') money after bad.
And the only way to stop MTA's "studying" is to push the MTA to accomplish the work in certain years or the money has to be retained. This way the MTA will use less money on "studying" and do the actual work, or the New York State Government will have debts. LOL
Also, Maryland's MTA is FINALLY adding a second track to the single-track portions of the Light Rail line. They're also building a new station in Ruxton, an affluent area that violently opposed a stop when the line was new. (The old "conduit for crime" argument, which has been disproved.) Of course, such a station would kill the glorious Falls Road-Lutherville "dash"...
Yeah, but the double track project will take SEVEN YEARS by the MTA's own admission.
This is despite the fact that a competant railroad contractor can get the job done in 18 months.
The 7 year figure is for the operational weenies on the Light Rail who still don't know that you can run a railroad (or a glorified streetcar line) during a construction project.
I will bet you that double tracking will have loads of "bus bridges", since they will suspend operations while the work is ongoing in a section.
In fact, the only part that might need a shutdown is the Middle Branch Bridge, but even that should be able to be done under traffic.
Well, you have Mr. "Do-It-NOW-Instead-of-Correctly" Willie Don Schaefer to thank for that mess. And note the article in the Baltimore Sun the other day about the inadequacies of our local transit system.
Theoretical question: How would you expand rail transit in Baltimore, and where would you put the lines? For starters, I'd extend the subway line north and east from Hopkins, up Broadway and then under Gay St. and Belair Rd. The stops would be Wolfe/Washington Sts., East North Avenue, Erdman, Moravia, Frankfort, Gardenville Park'n'Ride, Overlea Loop, somewhere just outside the Beltway, then east under White Marsh Blvd. to somewhere near the mall.
Then I'd build an east-west line running generally along U.S. route 40, from Rossville Blvd. to Rolling Road. I'd probably tie it into the current line's tracks from just south of Hopkins to somewhere between Chas. Center & Lexington Mkt., perhaps running on a lower level.
There'd also have to be something from the southwest...perhaps a line up Wilkens Ave. to Pratt, then north on Charles, terminating at CC (the better to use that transfer level!).
Mr. "Do-It-NOW-Instead-of-Correctly" Willie Don Schaefer to thank for that mess.
Don got the thing built. His Do-it-Now!!! attitude got lots of things done that haven't been done since. If Don wasn't there - no light rail. There was no vision at the MTA then, and it's still a bus company with some rail operations. If it wasn't for the limited vision enherant in the Maryland General Assembly, it would have been built as double track from the get-go. When the costs started to escaltate, cuts had to be made (bear in mind that there was a contingent in the General Assembly that was pissed off about the baseball and future football parks and all the $$ going to the City and wanted to screw Baltimore and Schaefer.) so, single track.
What I was ranting about is the idiot management of the Light Rail, who have no idea of how to run a streetcar line let alone the idiotic timetable for the Double Tracking project. Any competant rail contractor should get the whole job done, wired, stations rebuilt and in service in two years, tops. Anybody who says it can't be done is blowing smoke.
"And then, one also has to take a look at how much sway the airline industry has over everything. And the auto industry."
Not to mention the PETROLEUM industry. He/she who uses mass transit does not consume gas, and therefore is a threat to the oilmen...and please remember that the so-called President was once an oilman (though he didn't find very much oil).
He/she who uses mass transit does not consume gas, and therefore is a threat to the oilmen...
Considering this country deathly fear of CLEAN AND SAFE nuclear power, what fuel is used to power the electricity of the mass transit system?
It depends where you are. If you're riding SEPTA, the trains are most likely using nuclear-generated electricity.
You said it!
The New York State legislature and the US Congress routinely give short shrift to mass transit in favor of road building projects. Amtrak has been a basket case for years.
Can it be boiled down to a simple equation:
In urban areas, at least, auto owners have more money, more clout and more votes; mass transit riders do not; therefore mass transit can expect scant funding?
That's possible. A more likely explanation, in my opinion, is that most people (translation: most voters) in the United States simply don't think of transit because it's just not relevant to their lives. A significant percentage of the nation's population, probably a substantial majority, lives and/or works in areas that are so decentralized as to render transit use an impossibility no matter how much one supports it. More than fifty years of suburbanization, affecting both residences and work places, is behind this.
To put it somewhat differently, transit today is almost by necessity a regional issue, very important in a relatively few metropolitan areas but largely irrelevant in most parts of the country. As a result, it's not likely to become a major political priority. I certainly wish things weren't this way, but they are.
Part of the problem dates back to the 40 year period after World War II when the U.S. government, following the lead of Robert Moses, the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and the designers of the German Autobans that Ike thought were really, really cool decided to build more limited access highways to speed traffic in and out of cities, and then, as the developers moved to build new homes in the suburban areas where those roads were located, built even more highways, under the mistaken belief that "If we built one more road it will solve everything."
Now, outside of only the most trogladite-thinking legislator (yes, Tom "I don't want to ride a train with scary Negroes" DeLay qualifies, but even some other hard right conservatives like Richard Vigurre are transit backers) everyone realizes if you build one more road in suburbia, the surrounding land is just going to be developed and used to capacity pretty quickly. As a result, mass transit is starting to get a foothold in areas that it never had before, such as cities in the South and Southwest.
The problem however, with subway construction, at least in politicans eyes, goes back to the same reason Robert Moses loved bridges and hated tunnels -- they both do the same job, but the bridge is a visual monument to the greatness of the builders, while the tunnel is buried out-of-site and ignored by everyone except the users. That's why Moses had to be fought all the way to the White House to stop the Brooklyn-Battery Bridge from being built back in 1939.
Add to that the fact that building a subway takes time, so that if Politician A proposes it, odds are it won't be ready by the time he has to run for re-election -- but all the annoying construction work, street and sidewalk detours will be in place to anger people -- making it possible that Politician A's rival Politician B will get to take credit for the thing when it's finally opened, and you can see why underground mass transit doesn't set most pols' hearts aflutter. Voters can see a highway being built, and voters can even see an above ground light rail line under construction, but to most people, a new subway line is just an aboveground construction equipment nuicance until it finally opens.
Add to that the fact that building a subway takes time, so that if Politician A proposes it, odds are it won't be ready by the time he has to run for re-election -- but all the annoying construction work, street and sidewalk detours will be in place to anger people -- making it possible that Politician A's rival Politician B will get to take
credit for the thing when it's finally opened, and you can see why underground mass transit doesn't set most pols' hearts aflutter. Voters can see a highway being built, and voters can even see an above ground light rail line under construction, but to most people, a new subway line is just an aboveground construction equipment nuicance until it finally opens.
Very true, and of course the MTA doesn't help matters by taking an eternity to finish even the simplest projects. Seven plus years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel cannot be justified on any grounds whatsoever.
"Very true, and of course the MTA doesn't help matters by taking an eternity to finish even the simplest projects. Seven plus years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel cannot be justified on any grounds whatsoever."
Peter, if you had read any of the previous threads or had paid attention to newspaper articles when they came out you would know that "1500 feet of tunnel" was but one part of the Connector project. (And actually it was, not counting the ramps or other aspects, 3000 feet of tunnel, since the LIRR tunnel was extended underneath it. If you want me to, I will list the other parts of the project...
7 years is a long time. Maybe too long. This was due to: annual budget allocations to the project (you work when you have money); also, Queens Blvd. service continued uninterrupted while all this was going on.
To build the Connector in a much shorter time would have required cancellation of E,F, G, R service for significant amounts of time. Think of the nightmare that would have been.
service continued uninterrupted while all this was going on.
To build the Connector in a much shorter time would have required cancellation of E,F, G, R service for significant amounts of time. Think of the nightmare that would have been.
Service continued uninterrupted while a third track was added to the Manhattan els in the early 1900's - so I find this to be a poor excuse. They just don't know how to do it any more!!
Peter, if you had read any of the previous threads or had paid attention to newspaper articles when they came out you would know that "1500 feet of tunnel" was but one part of the Connector project. (And actually it was, not counting the ramps or other aspects, 3000 feet of tunnel, since the LIRR tunnel was extended underneath it. If you want me to, I will list the other parts of the project...
7 years is a long time. Maybe too long. This was due to: annual budget allocations to the project (you work when you have money); also, Queens Blvd. service continued uninterrupted while all this was going on.
To build the Connector in a much shorter time would have required cancellation of E,F, G, R service for significant amounts of time. Think of the nightmare that would have been.
I know what the 63rd Street project entailed. I also know that maintaining Queens Boulevard service was an added complexity. But I also know that the project took so hopelessly long because there was no real incentive to finish it any earlier as it was not a private sector project. People who were fed up with the MTA's glacial pace of construction were hardly about to use a competitor's subway. Free of competitive pressures, the MTA could take as long as they wanted. And they did.
Well, I shall give you an example about how a private sector(more precisely, semo-private sector because it is owned by the Hong Kong Government until its privatisation in 2000) do things. The MTR(the subway in Hong Kong) built the Lak King Approach/Connector(Or something like that, because I forgot the name:() to made a same platform transfer between Tsuen Wan Line and Tung Chung Line(One of the lines in the Airport Railway Project, which connects the new airport and the CBD, i.e. Central). Lak King Station is inside the hill, so it is more harder than building the 63rd Connector I suppose. The service on Tsuen Wan Line is remain uninteruppted even though the peaktime headway is about 105 seconds! The contractor dig bit by bit in the time gap, fortunately there is no accidents throughout the construction. And it is finished within 3 to 4 years. This tells us that if you are determine to finish, everything can be done.
True; even in Washington, D.C., whenever construction on a rail line section started (usually about 5 miles at time, about the size of the northern 2nd Avenue Branch), it was ready to roll in 4.5 - 5 years. In Philadelphia, the 2-mile Snyder-Pattison branch was built under its most main of main streets in 5 years. The current Toronto Sheppard Avenue Extension, about 3 miles long, is taking about 4.5 years to build, also under a street, and connecting to a station under Toronto's "mainest" street. Almost everywhere a subway extension takes 4-5 years, except in New York apparently.
Let anyone else to rule NYC and the MTA, then the problem solved.
In Philly the Snyder-Pattison extension may have taken five years, but the Roosevelt Boulevard subway has been talked about for over twenty years with nothing being done. You're not alone in your frustration, New Yorkers.
Mark
Twenty years is not seventy-five years. I'm sure that when the shovels come to Roosevelt Boulevard, it will be finished, and in a year a mile (reasonable time-span I believe).
Philly will have its Roosevelt Blvd line long before we get our 2nd Avenue subway (if we get it).
When did Tom DeLay say what you quote him as saying? I'm just wondering...
My take on DeLay is not a direct quote -- the guy's smarter than that to make such a career-killing statement -- but is based on his adimate opposition to any light rail construction in the Houston area, specifically on the south side of town (in Houston the southeast side of town is the low-income area, while the southwest side is middle class-and-up housing, the rail line terminus near the Astrodome would bisect the two areas).
It's the old-line "Let's just build another highway mentality" which has earned the city its reputation as being second only to Los Angeles in terms of both road rage and airborne pollutants (traffic congestion there is marginally better than in L.A. or D.C.). If you've ever been in Houston's rush hour traffic, you'd have to ask yourself who in their right mind would want to build another 10-lane concrete parking lot over a rail system, unless they were so dedicated to the "one man-one car" way of life that has allowed people in Houston and other cities shaped by the Interstate highway system over the past 40 years to avoid contact with the people from other sections of town on mass transit systems.
Also, in relation to another thread on the board today, DeLay is one of those people who believes new highways pay for themselves through the federal gasoline tax, while mass transit systems suck money off of the federal taxpayers through non-dedicated tax collections for rail systems that never pay for themselves. The former isn't true in a direct sense, while the latter is; but if you believe that the highway system is self-supporting and are a low-tax conservative, than you can justify staying in your car and not having to mingle with other people on mass transit lines.
Even Houston is getting smarter -- their latest highway project is actually a toll road, which is self-supporting -- but the current light rail fight pits DeLay and others like him against a growing number of people who just can't stand that daily commute any longer and want an alternative.
You state a number of facts some city's transportation policies. Then you make assumptions as to the supposed reason some other person has for believing them even though he is not a member of that city's executive branch. Basically you are using projection of your own simplistic beliefs about the "Other Side" and have talked yourself into believing it is all absolute fact.
Not everyone does things for the reasons you require them to have so you can demonize them.
So DeLay (or "Delay," oddly appropriate) thinks:
1) transit is a boondoggle that will waste tax dollars and nobody will ride, and
2) more and wider highways are not only A solution to traffic congestion, but the ONLY solution.
That may make him a damned pudding-headed fool, but there's still a big difference between that and opposition to transit based on racism, which is what you accused him of.
>>>...So DeLay ....<<<
Yeah, his name says it all, don't it?
Peace,
ANDEE
[More than fifty years of suburbanization, affecting both residences and work places, is behind this.]
Don't forget that the "fifty years of suburbanization" was based almost entirely on the arrogant "what's good for General Motors is good for America" philosophy. In other words, suburban sprawl was sponsored by the auto industry, at the same time GM (through its National City Lines subsidiary) was ripping up urban streetcar lines.
I don't know; it might be possible that some people like driving around and having a back and front yard. Maybe not those of us writing on this board, but it seems to me a lot of people liked it. Unfortunately, the world of us humans often goes from something is invented and it is so scarce and expensive that it is only used in bulk: transportation (buses and trains), movies (theaters), televisions (bars and TV shop windows), telephones (only at drug stores and downstairs in rooming houses), computers (at universities). Then it gets less expensive and it becomes more private: cars, VCRs, a TV in (potentially) every room, cordless and cellular phones, a computer in every home (soon to be in every room).
Rather than rail (pun?) against it, find ways to make urban close living more attractive; for now, most people like a bit of privacy during their adult lives; many don't but most do.
Can we find a happy medium between super-dense high rises
and super-sprawled suburban one-acre lots? I live in the near-northeast of Philadelphia, where there are a lot of neighborhoods
of duplexes with fairly high population densities and decent public transportaion that still manage to have a comfortable amount of grass, trees and breathing space around them. Could this be at least one
model for balancing people's need for space and privacy?
Mark
Sorry, that should say, "Could this be at least one model for balancing people's need for space and privacy with our need to conserve wilderness and other natural resources?"
Mark
Can we find a happy medium between super-dense high rises and super-sprawled suburban one-acre lots? I live in the near-northeast of Philadelphia, where there are a lot of neighborhoods of duplexes with fairly high population densities and decent public transportaion that still manage to have a comfortable amount of grass, trees and breathing space around them. Could this be at least one model for balancing people's need for space and privacy?
Not only is this sort of mid-density housing a happy medium, there's at least some anecdotal evidence that it's becoming more popular around the nation. An increasing number of people are coming to the realization that the low-density suburban and exurban model is not their cup of tea - people may like cars and driving, but spending three hours a day on traffic-choked roads isn't so fun. On the other hand, while high-density city living has some appeal, it has a number of limitations, especially for people with school-aged children.
What the growing popularity of mid-density housing (I'll assume that the trend will continue) means for transit is not entirely clear. Areas such as you describe may not have enough density to support traditional subways or heavy rail, but they might be quite suitable for light rail, especially if there are adequate park-and-ride facilities.
Can we find a happy medium between super-dense high rises and super-sprawled suburban one-acre lots?
Yes, and it's called Chicago :-)
Chicago's central area and the lakefront have densities similar to New York, but the vast majority of the city's neighborhoods consist of tidy single-family houses and apartment buildings along quiet, tree-lined side streets. A well-planned system of alleys between these streets allows almost every house to have a detached garage facing the alley, in addition to ample street parking out front. (The only neighborhoods outside downtown where parking is a problem are super-trendy neighborhoods which already have excellent transit access.) And the alleys also allow utilities and trash pickup to be located away from the streets, which are not cluttered with telephone poles or trash bins.
The neighborhoods closest to the lakefront tend to be mostly apartment or condo buildings, while the outermost neighborhoods are almost entirely Chicago-style bungalow houses. Most of the intermediate neighborhoods have a pretty healthy mixture of both apartments and houses. Commercial districts, typically located along every half-mile avenue, are never more than a short walk away. Almost all of these same avenues have a bus line which connects to at least one L line, and most parts of the city are within walking distance of an L stop. If you must drive, parking is usually tolerable as long as you stay away from downtown and the lakefront, and traffic isn't too bad as long as you avoid the expressways at rush hour.
Many of Chicago's closer-in suburbs like Skokie, Evanston, and Oak Park also offer a happy balance between transit-oriented and automobile-oriented development. Further out in the suburbs, though, you may as well be in Houston.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Despite the presence of the L, Dempster Street in Skokie has always appeared to me like the typical suburban strip. I certainly wouldn't want to walk much along it. How often do the buses there run?
Despite the presence of the L, Dempster Street in Skokie has always appeared to me like the typical suburban strip. I certainly wouldn't want to walk much along it. How often do the buses there run?
You're right about Dempster... That's probably not the best example. There are also some streets in Chicago that are almost as bad (Clybourn Avenue and some parts of Western Avenue come to mind). While most of Chicago's commercial streets may not have the aesthetic charm of the streets in someplace like Boston, they typically serve their function fairly well for both transit and auto use. The only things missing are the streetcars (advantage to Boston on that one).
Pace route 250 runs about every 20-30 minutes during weekdays. Having a car up there is probably the best option if you're going more than a couple blocks away from the L stop, but at least transit is not totally out of the question.
-- David
Chicago, IL
*I don't know; it might be possible that some people like driving around and having a back and front yard.*
Let's not forget governmental encouragement of such behavior (to benefit GM, perhaps?) through the tax code, which encourages homeownership (in suburbs) and punishes renters (in cities). In fact, at the time the highways were being built, federal housing laws made it easier and cheaper to buy a house (if you were non-Jewish white, that is) than to rent.
Seth
"most people like a bit of privacy during their adult lives"
Yes I have heard this. Very odd- many suburbanites say that they also like appreciate community. I have a hard time seeing how a place can provide more community and more privacy, unless you skew the definitions of one.
Either there are two kinds of suburbs or people really haven't thought through what they want.
Once again, the evils of capitalism are apparent. What is good for the rich is good for the country. In more progressive systems transit has been addressed, the Moscow subways is one of the best! The rich and corportations do what ever is needed to oppress the average man to benefit themselves, ie ""what's good for General Motors is good for America"
Well said!!
The comrades have found each other.
That's right, the revolution is coming and this time we won't allow the mistakes that derailed the glorius Soviet Revolution.
There is a perception by legislators that road expenses are fully covered by its own (gasoline tax) revenue sources. Thus, road improvements do not vye with other government services (police, education, water, health, etc.) for general revenues.
This perception is based on myth but it remains largely unchallenged.
Agreed.
And the auto companies had/have even bigger clout.
Seth
Some of what gauls me is how rail transit systems were REMOVED & dismantled in many towns & cities ( not just los angeles county )
the crooked plan was to replace them with diesel & gasoline powered engine vehicles such as buses cars vans pickup trucks big trucks etc..
But first rip out all of the trolley & commuter rail systems, fail them sabatoge & destroy them then RIP UP & OFF ALL THE TRACKS
burn all the transit cars ( except for a few wise museums who snached up as many as they could ) Now we are all ready set, go !!
To sum it all up they all GOOSE-STEPPED together didnt they? The oil companies the rubber tire mfg. companies the internal combustion
engine mfg. companies !!!! Re: What is the basis of governmental opposition to mass transit? It is very simple folks
THE GOVERNMENT IS OPPOSED TO MASS TRANSIT ( except for buses which they are in partners in crime with ) ....lol !!
I know what you mean. Atlanta had over 200 miles of trolley lines, but in the 50s the tracks were all ripped up and replaced with diesel buses.
They do that now!!! its called "meter maids" some call them parking enforcement some are called pay parking lots with FEES so
high only the most well off can afford it. Dont forget laws (ordinances) in many cities that you cannot sleep in your car even if
thats all
you got !! & the crap asociated to it when and where you can park & cannot ( so called anti lawn parking ordinances ) ....
so much for " park and ride " ...lol !!!
There is now direct access from the Q/W to the Northbound J/M/Z without having to go all the way around the wall. The passage looks like it was very hastily opened.
Hallelujah! Until the J/M station is cut in half, that passageway should remain open.
I saw this from a passing Q last night, and I'm glad, because I was getting ready to make noise about this (It was too long that way as it was)
Just now, I was trying to talk my wife and friends into taking this new way home, from Times Sq. They objected, because it would mean taking 3 trains (Q, J, M), so they stuck with the L. But then what do they do, but take the L the other way to 8th Av. to get a seat (they usually run to the L on the other side that leaves first). What is this but 3 trains? (Q, L, L), plus the walk up the grade from Wyckoff Av. (Seneca is closer to us, and there is much more shade as well). I just left them and went straight (Plus my wife keeps bringing up the recent rape on the Canal platform, but I kept telling her this was before the trains started running there --this morning. She just wouldn't hear it.) I'll never get these people, but this is why confusion abounds with the average person, because they are just used to what they are used to, and that's what makes all of today's changes so hard, even with all the notices everywhere (They were even suspicious of the new train I was bringing them on at 42nd)
Did they at least fix the stairs themselves up a little bit? Once people figure out that the Canal transfer from the Q/W to the J/M/Z for the trip to Bowery beats that shuttle bus to Grand Street or riding the M straight through the Montague St. tunnel, those stairs figure to start getting quite a passenger load during morning rush hours.
Yes, I was shocked to see that this afternoon! The paint still smelled wet; I didn't test it. I asked a TA worker there when it had reopened and he pointed me up to the northbound platform -- apparently he didn't understand the question, since I wasn't asking for directions. A week ago, I peered through a hole in the plywood door and saw new railings (I think I mentioned them here), so I expected the passageways to open eventually, but this was sooner than I had expected.
I saw the new railings behind the short black plywood barrier on the J&M platform Fri. from a passing train and figured this would be when it finally opened. Then I saw the sign pointing into the passage from the early Q.
14st has no mention of the Q/W.
42st/6th lists the B, D and Q to Brooklyn and has no mention anywhere of an S.
Canal st does not differentiate the North and Southbound transfers to the Q/W from the 6.
And about half the trains as well as several key stations (42nd/6th) still do not have new maps.
Kings highway on the Q still has an Orange Q on the express tracks and a Orange D on the local...Pitiful
And Sheepshead Bay (SB) has an orange Q on the express track and a yellow diamond Q on the local track. (Or at least it did on Wednesday. Today I was on a local so I couldn't see the signs.) Whoopsie.
Gentlmen: This is a major change and it takes time to change multiple signs in multiple stations. Have any of you ever moved? You know how long it takes to change the address. Please be patient.
I realize it's a major change. I do find it kind of strange that, of the two signs I saw at one station (Sheepshead Bay), one hadn't been updated and the other had been updated incorrectly.
The TA really should have hired an army (figuratively speaking) to run around and resign everything early Sunday morning.
Barring that, there's no excuse for the still-old signage at 34th and at Canal. At 34th the middle escalators on the IND platform make no mention of the Q/W (the large platform maps there haven't been updated either, but as of today someone had taped a few of the folding maps inside the glass). Also, signage upstairs at 34th prominently points towards the uptown and downtown platforms even though the uptown B is running from the so-called downtown platform. At Canal there's some stray N/R/6 signage on the J/M/Z platforms and the signs coming from both IRT platforms list the Q/W but don't bother giving directions, forcing people to guess which platform to use.
I really got a kick out of the (R) sign at DeKalb. After getting it wrong about night service, they just erased everything and left it blank.
At 36st, late nights for W service you can take the ;nbsp .
At 36st, late nights for W service you can take the nbsp; .
At 36st, late nights for W service you can take the .
At least no one can complain it's wrong!
The entire Brighton line has still not been properly signed.
I hear what you are saying. Let's go to a change of address example: Force mailers to hire an army of people so your change of address is posted immediately.
I know you dislike Transit and I work for Transit, but come on-- give us a break. This is a major change--it takes time to make the signs, transport the signs to the field location and a crew to install the signs plus a flagger since they are working near the platform edge and then most stations have at least 3-4 overhead signs plus street entrance signs. Large complex stations such as 34/Bway/6av have more signs than might a station like Alabama Ave on the J. You want them to block movement of customers to install signs-yeah, and then you'd gripe about blocking vustomers to insaall signs.
I may disagree with you but you have the right to your opinion.
I was very disappointed at Herald Square. Some but not all of the signage has been updated. The mezzanine still has many N/R signs. The middle escalators on each IND platform also only have N/R signs, and the maps nearby are old. I spent a few minutes there directing passengers; I had to tell them to follow the N/R signs to get to the Q.
Broadway-Laf has orange S's over the Grand Street shuttle platform. That's the wrong S.
Anybody see today's NY Post. They are predicting a disaster with the flip.
It'll be interesting to see how tomorrow goes.
Tomorrow is going to be absolute madness. People will be waiting at Astoria Blvd. for the express, when a whole bunch of regular (N)s will be breezing by. The switching fun at 57th/7th and 34th/Herald Sq. (for the ) will definitly cause delays, not to mention what will happen at Dekalb. And what about the passengers all over South Brooklyn, esp. at Stillwell. I may be too young to know about the Chrystie St. opening, but there will be a taste of that madness come tomorrow's morning rush. I'm just glad that I live in The Bronx.
As a side note, I was at 57th/7th waiting for the (Q), keeping in mind the presence of the (R) detour. That was dumb. I spoke to a station agent, and was told that all the (Q)s were starting at Times Sq. Fine, but why weren't signs posted at stations north of Times Sq. indicating this. Just another example of the lack of notification that the MTA has been recently criticized over.
I was at 46 and Queens Blvd around 720 this am on the R. We get to Roosevelt and are held. C/R then announces we aere goign express to 71 due to congestion. Being in uniform the customers were getting unhappy. I told them another is right behind and will run local. As if on cue, as soon as the first R left, another pulled in as soon as the signal cleared and did run local.
After finishing at Woodhaven I was back on the R and experienced slowness to Times Square where two Q trains were on the express tracks-the Northbound having just pulled in and dumped( "Dump" is the deliberate application of the emergency brake at a terminal.)
On my way to work I was at Canal on the J-- there are semi-permanent shuttle bus signs on the columns at the exit to Canl and Centre Street.
At Broadway East NY(BENY) earlier I spoker with several officers from the District in the station. They agreed with my opinion that there qwill be chaos. The too predicted At least one person will be removed from the system due to rage over the bridge. The police will also be out in force although they did not disclose and did not ask their plans.
NYPD did predict the biggest problems will be 34, Canal, Grand and DeKalb.
Actually, I doubt any switching delays at 34th St. or 57th St. will happen. I remember when they were used from 86-88, and they ran fairly smoothly.
What will cause problems is the B and D at 34th St. One track for each line to terminate means backups all the way through 7th Ave. Even in 1986-88, backups were always a problem here.
I made a BAHN simulation with the new patterns in effect and sure enough there were delays with trains turning at 34th. One track for each line will cause delays, unless headways are lengthened on the B and D.
One possible way to ease these backups is to take all B's and D's out of service at the southbound 34th St. station, run light to the X crossing north of W4th St, switch to the uptown track, reverse ends and run back up to 34th St. to the uptown express platform. This would probably necessitate more cars than just switching north of 34th.
[As a side note, I was at 57th/7th waiting for the (Q), keeping in mind the presence of the (R) detour. That was dumb. I spoke to a station agent, and was told that all the (Q)s were starting at Times Sq. Fine, but why weren't signs posted at stations north of Times Sq. indicating this. Just another example of the lack of notification that the MTA has been recently criticized over.]
I did the same thing, but quickly realized I had to go to Times Square for the Q. I suspect non-railfans wouldn't figure it out so fast. Fortunately, there didn't seem to be many people waiting for the Q at 57th/7th. The biggest crowds got on at 34th, naturally. I saw one or two Q cars with "Times Square" on the roll sign, but most still had 57th/7th. It seems too obvious to put the "Times Square" sign on all the Q's today; someone at NYC Transit should have thought of it.
I saw one running empty in Brooklyn right before the flip, and it said "Times Sqare". But then the rest of the day, they all said 57th. I don't get this one.
I think the train crews were to lazy to change all the signs to read Times Square
The "all Yellow Q to Times Square" empty non-revenue train pulled into Stillwell from the yard a little before midnight. It then supposedly ran non-stop to Times Square. The other Q trains that followed it were already in service as D trains. I assume that while it was in the yard, they had time to change all the signs.
There are switches betw 14 and W4 on 6Av. Why not switch the S to express track at W4, B/L, grand instead of making Grand-W4 a two-seat ride?
msh210
http://www.crosswinds.net/~msh210/
To do that would require trains run at wider headways. Queensbridge patrons would suffer.
This was done in the 1980's switch.
The TA has announced that starting in November the Grand Street shuttle will go to W4.
Face it there's just no way to keep the dash. I've boggled my mind about it too. :-(
That would require single-tracking in both directions between north of Broadway-Laf and Grand. I still think it could be done. The Grand Street shuttle today (with two T/O's) ran with approximately three-minute dwell times at each end. If it takes three minutes to get from Broadway-Laf to Grand (I think that's an overestimate, but I'll have to go back and time it), through service could run at nine-minute headways.
That's certainly sufficient now, with the two shuttles. With the V, alternate rush hour trains would probably have to terminate at 2nd Avenue, as currently planned. I can't see why this wouldn't work.
Is there any reason not to do this?
To torture then grand st. riders as much as possible.
Nothing more can be realistically done.
Tomorrow will be such a "good" day to see if the 1 month of notices paid off. The 4 is probably ready for an additional crush of riders who want to get the Dekalb quickly. I might just go to 34 Street and help for helping sake. Choas is reigning the D and B riders. Confusion reigns.
By the way anyone else planning to help confused riders? We might need people who speak other then english. Maps are not in every language.
Not unless the TA wants to donate to the cuase by handing out some Metrocards gratis.
Not unless the TA wants to donate to the cause by handing out some Metrocards gratis.
Se Habla Espanol..... and I'd perk for a MC au-gratis
Every man/woman for themselves!
Peace,
ANDEE
I've been doing my best with my fellow co-workers. None of those who ride any of these lines had any problems today.
NOTES
(1) Subsequent revisions will be reflected in the next update.
(2) Listings are based on technical history and consist practice.
(3) This list describes available equipment on the date indicated. All may not have been used in revenue service.
(4) Additional changes not shown were awaiting confirmation.
#1/9 (Red)-340 cars
340 WH R-62A 1651-1670, 2156-2475 (E-cam, unitized).
One WH R-62A from 1/9 used on 5.
#2 (Black)-413 cars
146 GE R-33 8916-8925, 8928-8933, 8936-8957, 8960-8967, 8970-8979, 8982-9017, 9020-9055, 9058-9075.
132 GE R-33 9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9123, 9126-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-9151, 9154-9163, 9166-9211, 9214/9215.
135 Am R-142 6301-6350, 6411-6445, 6476-6480, 6501-6505, 6576-6615 (unitized).
GE R-33s from 2 used on 5 as required.
#3 (Blue)-274 cars
30 WH R-62A 1871-1900 (E-cam, unitized).
244 W R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-2155 (E-cam, single units).
24 cars 1901-1965 have full-width cab at one end for S.
#4 (Orange)-423 cars
20 GE R-33 8836-8855.
88 GE R-33 9216-9223, 9226-9305.
315 GE R-62 1301-1365, 1371-1434, 1438, 1441-1625 (unitized).
#5 (Green)-344 cars
28 GE R-26 7762/7763, 7766-7777, 7782/7783, 7786/7787, 7790-7795, 7798-7801.
40 GE R-26 7804-7813, 7816-7827, 7830-7833, 7838/7839, 7842/7843, 7846-7849, 7852/7853, 7856-7859.
38 GE R-28 7860-7869, 7872/7873, 7876-7889, 7892/7893, 7896-7901, 7904-7907.
42 GE R-28 7910-7917, 7920-7941, 7944-7949, 7954-7959.
108 GE R-29 8688-8711, 8714-8775, 8778-8799, 8802-8805.
88 GE R-33 8806-8835, 8856-8883, 8886-8915.
GE R-33s from 2 used on 5 as required.
One WH R-62A from 1/9 used on 5.
Two WH R-62A from 6 used on 5.
#6 (Yellow)-511 cars
86 WH R-29 8570-8573, 8576-8581, 8584-8599, 8602-8605, 8608/8609, 8612/8613, 8616-8625, 8628-8633, 8640-8645, 8650-8653, 8656/8657, 8660-8665, 8668-8673, 8676-8687.
200 WH R-62A 1671-1870 (Standard Cam, unitized).
225 Am R-142A 7211-7435 (unitized).
Two WH R-62A from 6 used on 5.
#7 (WH-Black, GE-Yellow)-402 cars
38 WH WF R-33 9307-9320, 9322-9345.
132 WH WF R-36 9346-9477.
20 WH R-36 9526-9539, 9542/9543, 9546/9547, 9550/9551.
212 GE WF R-36 9558-9769.
S (Blue)-10 cars
10 WH R-62A 1901-1908, 1910-2155 (E-cam, single units).
24 cars 1901-1965 have full-width cabs at one end for S.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
George,
Can you come up with a detail for the B Division? You are very exacting in your deatiling and I would love to see such a listing for the BMT/IND.
Thanks!
Some 9000 series R33's have made their way to th #5.
OK.
Do we have a number grouping or is this random pairs? How many train sets?
More detail would be immensely helpful.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Most of the R-33 cars that are on the 5 are assigned at random.
8806-35 are definitely a part of the 5, with other cars filling in the gaps.
On the R-142 front, 6431-45 are not in service as of this writing.
-Stef
6431-40 left the East @ around 11:15pm last night heading to unknown location(?) It was followed by the 6411-20 which was in revenue service. Also 6626-30 have the artwork in side the cars as well.
One would venture a guess that 6431-40 were going to 207 St for work.
-Stef
The last day of pasenger service for R-36s on he 6 has been confirmed as Monday, July 9, 2001.
Two trains were operated that day.
One consist departed Parkchester at 6:38 am as a local and made one round trip: 9491/9490-9501/9500-9502/9503-9497/9496-9518/9519. This set was moved to Concourse for storage that evening.
The second consist actually made the last trip late in the morning rush hour out of Brooklyn Bridge. Consist 9523/9522-9524/9525-9498/9499-9513/9512-9514/9515 was put in service at Pelham Bay Park as the 6:00 am Pelham Express and remained on the road until pulled into Westchester Yard at 10:19 am. It, too was moved to Concourse yard for storage later that day.
All WF and ML R-36s were confirmed out of service on the 6 line as of July 12, 2001. All cars had departed for storage except 9500/9501, which was finally moved to Concourse this past week.
Next in line seem to be the remaining WH R-29s. Get those pictures soon!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Why are the newest Redbirds being pulled out before the older ?
The air conditioning on the R-36s I was on last month on the 6 was barely working on at least two of the cars in the consist. In contrast, the AC on R-29 car 8605 at least was blowing and going -- it was colder in there than on one of the R-142 cars I rode a little while later.
There may be other mechanical or rust-related reasons for removing all the R-36s from the 6 first, but if you're planning to get rid of them all by summer's end, yanking the ones with the crappiest air conditioning first isn't such an illogical idea.
A small group of us led by Allan,including Clayton, Harry (High St./Brooklyn Bridge), Victor M. and his friend Mike, and Rosanne and I, set out from 57th/7th Ave. this morning about 10:30. Of course, because of the G.O. we had to take a downtown N to 42nd to transfer to a waiting Q. We proceeded on the Q over the south side of the bridge to Atlantic Ave. and then transferred to the W at the Pacific St. station and continued to Stillwell Ave.. This is where Harry departed after taking the photos which he has already posted. The rest of us headed for lunch at Nathans. Clayton then left us. I suggested riding the Cyclone, but all the SubTalkers refused. Mike, however, was game and the two of us went on it. He loved it. Allan, Vic, and Mike decided to go to the Transit Museum and headed out on an F, but since Rosanne and I had been there last Sunday, we declined and stayed with the original plans to return on a Q to Manhattan. We then transferred at Canal to a downtown N and headed to the ferry, and a round trip to Tottenville on the SIR, the ferry and a M 15(forgive us for our sin),and dinner in Chinatown. And how was the museum?
Sounds like you have a good time. On the (Q). Did you get a R40S? And I could be going to Coney Island with a 6 Year Old Girl from Purto Rico. Witch she's my Cosen and she's comming with her mother and I have to look after her. Not only that. I would be takeing her to Phily also and New Jersey too. And I have the Money to do it ALL! :)
Identifying cars in not something that I do well without a listing of car numbers. I thought we had all R68s. Perhaps Clayton who also went back on the Brighton would know. Have a good time in Coney Island. Be sure to go to Nathan's, and if you want ice cream, to Denny's farther down Surf Ave. They have soft pistachio and banana.
We had all R68's.
It is easy to tell the difference by car numbers, the R68's are numbered 2500 - 2924. The R68A's are numbered 5001 - 5200.
The best physical way I found to tell them apart is by the cab doors on the full width cab end. On the R68's the cab door opens inward from left to right. On the R68A's the cab door slides from right to left.
>>And how was the museum?<<
It was great as always. Victor practically went ga-ga over the 2 trucks on display on the platform.
I was really suprised that after all this time Victor had never been to the Museum. He thought it was just a couple of old cars and was really suprised at all the equipment and tranist items that were on display. He commented that some of it made him feel old. Victor, you have a few years on me but let me tell you there are times I sit in my favorite car (Lo V trailer) and it brings me back to when I rode it as a kid in the 50's and as a teen in the 60's. It makes me feel old as well. Mike had a good time and had tons of questions which I was happy to provide answers (to a lot of them anyway).
Hopefully they will be able to make it back to the Museum before it closes for renovation next month.
Many, many thanks to you for that great museum tour (and to you and Gary & the others for the trip). Those trucks on the platform at the museum answered questions I've been thinking about for years -location of the motors, how they are mounted, geared to the wheels, etc. I'm amazed they can get so much horsepower out of a relatively small motor. Also, entering those cars on display was almost like stepping into a time machine! Thanks again!
The thanks go to Allan for organizing he trip.
Would I be right in guessing, then, that none of you were the two guys on the southbound platform of 18 Ave (?) on the W taking pictures of my northbound around 1:40pm?
We may have already left Coney Island, but none of us took the W back with the possible exception of Harry. He left before lunch and I don't know what train he took.
Hi there I just wanted to introduce myself to the board. My name is Chris Tormey and I am a long time Subway fan. I have a few questions.
1) Will the B line ever be re-established in Brooklyn once construction is finished on the Manhattan Bridge? I took one last ride on the B last night for nostalgia reasons. I really don't
2) My father is recently retired Conductor (he worked the RR, N, B, A, C, S shuttle in Rockaway Beach (the Round Robin)) over the last 25 years) and I wanted to get him a model train (about 1-2 feet long?) of a subway car preferably a modern car, any ideas on where to get one?
Thanks, Christopher
There is a place on West 45th St., I believe , that sells brass models, but they can cost a small fortune. Try to look into Model Railroader magazine to see what can be had, especially if you look in the section in the back marked interchange.
Yeah, that's the Red Caboose you're talking about. They also carry some of the Images Replicas plastic models.
The original poster must be new to the site too because there's a whole list of Subway Models elsewhere.
Cappelli Hobbies in Philadelphia PA (Market St, between 3rd and 4th Streets, listed in the phone directory) has unpowered HO gauge BART and Washington Metrorail subway cars built from kits, if you're interested...
Welcome to the board, Christopher.
The East Penn Traction Club has a fairly comprehensive listing of manufacturers of subway equipment, and web sites thereof when available.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks everyone for the information and links. I have lots of fond memories of riding the trains with my dad (Tom) as he worked. I even made some announcements! :P I love the NYC trains and as I can tell by the amount of posts here on the board I am not alone. I love the pictures of the TA trains, stations on this board. Incredible. I take the N train every morning to work and I actually look foward to it. There are always new experiences to be had. I see there are a core group on this board that go on the field trips, I'd like to go one time on a local trip. Kudos to those that run this site and to the workers of the trains (and buses) that keep the city running.
Thanks.
Christopher Tormey
Hi Chris - you can get a 4-car set of O-Scale IRT R-21 cars factory painted Redbird Colors - signed, numbered & with M logo panels - with interiors and
lighted - made to run on 3-rail o-gauge track - for $199.95 + tax from any major NY Hobby shop -but
move fast as the entire run - produced by Mikes Train House (MTH) Electric Trains - is sold out - if its on a store shelf its is surplus set(s) and up from grabs lst come - lst gets. Most sets were customer pre-ordered via stores during production & only a few on-the-shelf sets are still around now.
You can keep 2 cars and give your dad two - cars measure a scale IRT 51' x 9' (13" long x 2 1/2" wide O-scale) so 2 cars = 26 inches approx. These are
first quality scale items and the price beats HO or
O Brass or other unfinished kits (epoxy, etc.) that have to be finished and painted by the buyer. Welcome to subtalk and happy hunting!
How do you change your handle?
You send me email requesting it. You can't do it by yourself online.
Thanks I just wanted to know for further refrence.
how soon before we start seeing 142 equip on the 5 line. R142a already has tod programmed with route info?
Probably starting with the 6700 series.
ME!!! THAT'S WHO!!! I found out that a group that I am perifurally involved with was having a little get together doen in Cape May and they had hired a FREE chartered CMSL train from the 4H fairgrounds to Cape May. The best part was that both the crew members were a part of the groupe and therefore more fun could be had by all. The C/R and Engineer were soth somewhat new on the job and were not very bound by the rules of "proper" railroading. Budd car M407 pulled in c. 9AM and the whole group took a trip to the Cape May Park and Zoo. Not including me and the crew there were two other railfans in the group. We got back to M407 by 11 AM and left no later than 11:20. The reason for this was that we had a Form D and we had to meet the regular CMSL train at the Cape May Court House passing siding. Te siding was rusty and over grown w/ weeds, but we still made it. I took lots of pics of that and the From D exchange that included the CMSL onwer guy. I got a cab ride the whole way, with both crew members. They even let me stick my head out the window and operate the hi level platform thinggie. Last year they let one of the other railfan guys DRIVE the RDC for a mile or two.
Now on this trip M407 was having a bad time of it. At one point we caused both the engines to disconnect and due to the fact that the air-compressor was needing 80 amp fuses when we only had 60 amp fufes made things a bit interesting. We blew a total of 4 fuses. Each time the Engineer would notice that the resevoir pressure was NOT recharging and had to make cureful use of the brakes and horn as the pressure got lower and lower (got down to about 65 once). Then they would stop the train and get out to change the fuse. They used all the spare fuses and the bolt they kept on in case of total fuse loss had been removed.
We ran express THROUGH Cold Springs at like 35 mph and then passed a Form D to the operator at CANAL. This was my first trip into Cape May over the new bridge.
We pulled into Cape May and got word that the real train was already comming back through Cold Springs so we made haste to back off the station track and into the #2 track. All this had to be done w/ waning air pressure as we had blown our last fuse. The other railfan guy got to flag the crossing as it pulled into the #2 track. They them put a blue flag on M407 and the engineer went to work jury rigging the fuse. Now the return trip was at 7 PM, but I had to go early so I caught the next regular train back (M410). It was pretty uneventful except that #7000 had pulled out of Rio Grande and gone to the Wildwood passing siding where it was doing something w/ the cars stored there.
It was one of the best trips I have ever had and I can't wait to do it again next year. Stay Tuned for my pictures in a week or so.
BTW, M407 had been involved in a grade crossing accident and it's rear marker lights on the effected end have not been re-coloured. Because of this, on my trip, the engineer did not need to display the white extra flags and just used the normally tail lights as white "Extra" marker lights. This was SO SO SO SO SO COOL!!!!!!!!! It's called old timey railroading at its best.
Subway Photos from July 20, 21, & 22, 2001
You can use the links here, or go to an index page at:
http://www.hillel.cornell.edu/brianw/subway/index.htm
The photos are all around 50-60k in size.
July 20, 2001
DCP_1130.jpg -- The "No Windstorming" sticker, found in lead R40 slant of Qtraindash7's "Last Run Thru the Dash" trip
DCP_1131.jpg -- Destination sign on same R40 slant
July 21, 2001
DCP_1132.jpg -- Blurry photo of first "yellow Q" signed non-revenue train to cross the south side of the MannyB (leaving Stillwell in photo). I was told this train was running non-stop to Times Square. This was a few minutes before midnight.
DCP_1133.jpg -- Blurry and out of focus shot of the Q leaving Stillwell.
July 22, 2001
DCP_1135.jpg -- Destination sign of the Grand Street Shuttle R46's that pulled into the W platform just after midnight. Sign says "S to GRAND STREET"
DCP_1136.jpg -- Another photo of the shuttle's destination sign, with the sign saying "S SHUTTLE"
DCP_1137.jpg -- Destination signs on the second non-revenue train that was announced to be going non-stop to Times Square
DCP_1138.jpg -- WARNING: The following four photos may cause motion sickness. They are all of a subway worker changing the signs on our "First Q over the bridge" between 14th and 34th. Originally, the car was signed up like a regular D. At this point, the top sign says "Bronx Bedford Park Blvd"
DCP_1139.jpg -- Now the top sign is the upside down version of the pic before
DCP_1140.jpg -- Now the top sign is blank
DCP_1141.jpg -- Here the worker admires the final product
DCP_1142.jpg -- Finally, the subway stopped and I got a solid photo of the destination sign
So what have I learned from all this? That I have to learn how to hold my digital camera steady, change some setting (if possible) to account for action photos, or buy a small tripod (although I don't know what I would have placed it on).
Enjoy,
BMdoobieW
Nice photos. You'll all have to wait a few months to see mine -- I first need to finish the roll, get it developed, and find some way to scan the final product.
Your second link has two "http://"'s.
Tripods aren't allowed in the subway system (not that I care, as long as you don't get in my way).
Ok, I'll fix that. I hope your photos aren't as blurry as mine. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that in no uncertain terms will they be blurry. They will be perfect. So hurry the heck up and post them!
Right now, the only sense in which I can post those pictures is by hanging my camera on the wall. I'm afraid that would serve no one, and it would make it impossible for me to take pictures of the chaos tomorrow (although I could get some of the opposite wall). I'd never finish up the roll and the film would never be developed.
Hey now. I can finish up that roll for ya real fast, drop it off at the supermarket with the "kodak photo cd" box checked, and have those puppies posted on the 'net in about 3 days flat. So what's your excuse?
You gonna pay for that developing? I pay $3.98 per roll, including low-res scans (which are basically useless). And I don't want a photo CD since I think it uses JPEG, which is fine until I want to edit anything at all (crop, zoom in, resize, whatever), at which point quality begins to drop precipitously. No, I insist on high-quality TIFFs or PNGs, which I store on CD before I convert to JPEG.
"Windstorming?"
Heh heh, yeah. Pretty funny. It's up to you to decide what it means. But don't read too much into it...it's only a sticker. And a joke sticker, at that.
Yeah I was going to post that it's probably a joke. I've seen fake Service Notices in stations. Someone posted a photo of one some time back. Heh.
I was the one who found the fake service notice last year -- it was on a corridor near the Canal/Bridge station platform.
Learn all about the X Train!
Now there’s an idea to confuse the unwary! Print your own service notices!
LOL
John
Don't give me ideas........
I spotted this sticker on R40M #4522 last March.
Well, I wasn't on an R40M, (it was a slant) so I guess there are at least two of these stickers traveling under, over, and through the streets on New York. The more the merrier, I say.
If your camera allows it, you use the LOWEST res/quality settings..this shortens the load time for the image......
Do you mean it will "take the picture faster" and cause less bluriness?
It will take a fast but low quality picture.
I have a digital cam(intel). i took some pics & and Vids before while the cars is in motion. When taking a pic, wait a few seconds after hitting the button. I had this problem(blury pics) when I first got my cam.
Thanks for the tip! I'll do that.
After years of looking for track maps I finally found this site and a map of the J and M beneath Nassau Street. What a joy also to have found a listserve of informed contributors! I hope you can give me some leads on this. I live in a coop on Nassau, just north of Beekman. The J train can't really be heard in the apartments in our building, but the M makes a huge noise. So the weekends, when the J runs, are nice and quiet, but weekdays, when the M runs, it's a bit like a thunderstorm. It looks as if both run on the same track. So does anyone have any idea why there would be such a difference? Years ago we had noise engineers measure the sound in our apartments and they found it excessive. MTA did some track work with little effect. When the M was running rush hours only, it was a problem that could be borne, but with full service hours for the M beginning tomorrow, it's something we'll need to look into. I'd appreciate any thoughts the listserve contributors might have.
As far as I know, the J & M run the same equipment, so I really can't imagine there would be any difference, other than the frequency of service.
The J terminates at Chambers during the weekends. This is just north of your building, since after Beekman is Spruce, and then Frankford and the Brooklyn Bridge approach. The southbound end to Chambers is located around the city-bound Brooklyn Bridge traffic lanes.
During weekdays, the J runs down to Broad. So does the M from 530AM-930AM, and again from 330PM-730PM. The noise that you hear is the J OR the M running down or up Nassau. Since on weekends, when the M does not run into Manhattan at all, and the J terminates at Chambers, you have no passing trains, hence no noise.
Both trains do run on the same track.
You might also hear some noise from the Park Row 4 and 5, since they are only one wall away by the time the 4, 5 and 6 are at Brooklyn Bridge. The false wall between the IRT and BMT can be seen on the southbound Chambers Street platform.
However, starting tomorrow, your noise level will increase markedly, since the M will not terminate at Chambers Street, but run down and up Nassau into Brooklyn and Queens, from 530AM-930PM weekdays.
Thankfully, weekend service (as of now) along the J and M is unchanged.
I would also call BOMA (Building Owners and Management Association) for a liasion between yourself and the property owner. If you are in a Class "A" building, you should have many avenues available to you for redress, including BOMA.
Thank you, ItalianGuy in SI. I see now that I misidentified the problem, not knowing about the J's termination at Chambers on week-ends. In a years' calling and writing to MTA, no one came up with this explanation, or corrected our error. And thank you, also, for the information about BOMA.
You are very welcome. Good luck.
> listserve
The what? :-)
"The J train can't really be heard in the apartments in our building, but the M makes a huge noise."
heheheheeehe
OK, do I give the obvious answer, or do I simply allow all of us to engage in a collective "duh"???
Would you believe I got a picture of an IRT car on Staten Island today? More to come by Thursday.
-Hank :)
HMMMM... "TA hides 20 year construction of super tunnel from South Ferry Station to Staten Island. The 1 trains new route will be 207th Street, Bronx, to Tottenville, SI."
"207th Street, Bronx." I meant 242nd Street. It's pretty bad when you mix up the IRT with the IND's A line. I think I'd better get to bed.
well lets see it?
Which car and where?
If I told you that, it wouldn't be a surprise... :)
-Hank
Oh you tease you.
Maybe he's referring to those MTH R-21 "O" gauge trauns that just came out !
Bill "Newkirk"
Or maybe the SIR has acquired some retired IRT cars to use as work trains???
I am gonna ride the W tomorrow morning in the morning rush hours. If any subtalkers wanna know what i will look like, i will be wearing the A TRAIN shirt with an american flag for a bandana. I will be in the front car watching the M/M seeing what views i can get. Hope to see u there! it will be around 8 or so in the mornin.
You're off to C the W? Given your handle, you're off to E the W. Given your shirt, you're off to A the W. You're clearly not off to C the W unless there's reroute.
Hey! How was the walk today, fellas? Sorry I couldn't make it. I have a question. On the Manhattan side, where can I enter the walkway to walk over the Manhattan Bridge to Brooklyn? What street? Also, what level is the walkway on? Is it on the level of the tracks? I don't know if this walkway's new or not. I know you can walk over the Brooklyn Bridge. I assume it's perfectly legal to walk over the Manhattan Bridge. I want to do it this Friday. I'd appreciate the info. :) Plus, the walk would do me good as I'm trying to drop a few pounds. ;)
The walkway connects at the Manhattan end at Canal Street and Bowery. Walk from the Manhattan end, at the Brooklyn end the streets are more obscure and farther from the subway. Easier to find your way out than in.
The walkway is on the same west (most incorrectly call it south) side as the tracks that are currently being used.
We didn't make it to the walkway yesterday, but a few of us did the previous Sunday. The entrance is on The Bowery just below Canal Street. Cross The Bowery at Bayard Street (one block south) to avoid being killed. The walkway is on the lower level next to the tracks that are now in use.
Most D passengers got off at 34th, despite the awful crowding in the second car (the first was locked up) and the inaudible announcements. A few stayed on and were treated to a trip back to 42nd.
Efficient operation on the Grand shuttle. Two T/O's with rapid turnaround. Service is on the northbound track, so there are no southbound signals. The cab door at the south end was propped open all the way, so I had a good view. Both platforms at Grand have signs for the shuttle bus, even though only one platform is in use.
Excellent announcements on the Manhattan-bound R via 63rd about the omitted 4/5/6 transfer. No mention of the missing E/F (to G) from local stations west of Roosevelt. No mention of no Q at 57th.
They've brought out the big guns at Canal: platform conductors! You know, those guys waving the flashlights at Grand Central? They're at Canal -- on a weekend, yet! The narrow platforms were, indeed, very crowded, and they'll only get more crowded tomorrow with over triple the service. Good move.
Someone was hogging the window on the next Q over the bridge -- standing right in front of it, not even moving a bit to the side. The view to the south is much better than the view to the north. Around Brighton Beach, I noticed someone trying to push the storm door at the other end closed(!); I took a picture and sat down, enjoying the pleasant breeze. I wanted to watch the infamous scissor action at the curve into W8, and I was thinking of passing into the next car at a station, but Mr. Window Blocker decided it was his duty to unlatch the thingy that was holding the door open. I realize I'm risking offending someone on this board in this paragraph, but blocking the entire railfan window (especially on the first day of a new service) is just plain rude, and there's really no need to close the door when you're sitting right near it and can stop anyone who's about to pass through at a dangerous time. (There were kids in the next car tugging on their door handle, which actually moved -- I guess that's how our door got open in the first place -- but closing our door wouldn't have stopped them from opening theirs.)
There didn't seem to be any confusion on the W to Pacific (but my car had only one other passenger, so maybe I missed it all). We were held four or five minutes south of Pacific because the W in front of us was taking its precious time getting out of our way -- I'm not sure why, since it has to relay. I passed every W in service -- no Slants. The one I rode yesterday on the B must be in the yard, waiting for Q express service tomorrow.
The C/R on the Q back to 42nd made a number of witty references to air travel, but he also offered the transfer to the W at each stop in Manhattan. At 42nd, I walked back to correct (and commend) him; he was making announcements and closing up through the window from outside the car. He thanked me. Then I pointed out that his train had just pulled out without him, but he told me it had two T/O's on board for the relay. (Why bother relaying? Both directions could be served from one platform.) I guess he caught it on the other side.
All relevant tracks not in use today were taped off, except at Grand, which was probably handled on the mezzanine. (Well, except the downtown local at 72nd, where there were also no signs and where my 3 C/R didn't bother saying a word. Lots of people got off to change to the local, which happened to be running express. My complaints about mishandling of GO's are not unfounded.) Some (34th SB IND express, W4 SB express, Queens Plaza local) will need to be untaped tomorrow morning.
Are both Q's using R40 slants? What kind of cars are running on the new services? Someone told me 60 footers would be used in the Bronx. I find that highly unlikely. Keep the wonderfully fast and sleek R40 slants on the Brighton Express!
The Q local was running all R-68's (and R-68A's?) today.
A bunch of R-40's in the card were signed as Q expresses.
Looks like the new services are running what we're all used to already.
YES! R40s on the express! Woo-hoo! The front viewing windows live on! Goodnight, y'all. I'll sleep much better. Keep the 75 foot Godzillas off the good express runs! Better yet, cut 15 feet off them.
There aren't too many men around who would be comfortable saying "Woo-Hoo" in public.
Everybody here would merely testify that they thought he said "Woo-woo" ... :)
Not too many of my friends would feel okay saying "woo-Woo" either.
Now, nyuk-nyuk-nyuk-nyuk-nyuk, or soitenly, real men say that!
Woo-woo-woo-woo ... woo-woo-woo-woo ... so there. :)
BY the WAY ... since you're on the inside of the MTA jailhouse these days, how's about helping us start a MOVEMENT ... the anti-W train movement ... think you can talk the TW/O's into referring to that sucker as the "woo-woo-woo-woo?" I ain't riding no Dubya train. :)
There seemed to be more R40s on the N over the weekend, and I spotted at least one R46 (!!!!) set saturday in astoria. I wonder if they reassigned it already? (probably was just filling in with the slight car shuffle/ resigning going on...)
I sure have alot of new lines to ride on later. The yellow Q express, the W, the orange S to 63rd street line. And it's sure gonna feel wierd going through the Canal bridge station on a train!
And seeing the other tunnels that are used for the south side between Dekalb and the bridge. Plus if I have time I may check out the increased M service at the Bowery. All in all it's gonna be one big day. Well I'll be there to help the confused. I'll report on it all sometime Monday night. It's gonna be a long day, that's for sure. :-)
(In whining voice) I can't ride until Friday! Why didn't I take my vacation this month? :(
You and me both.
I do have a question for some of the...er, oldtimers. I was riding to work last Thu. AM @ approx. 10AM on an R-40 Q, and I asked the TO about the signs on the Manhattan-bound B'way platform which served to indicate whether the train on that track was going via bridge or tunnel, and whether it was a Nassau or Broadway train. He said he had been working for the T/A for 28-some years, and that it was possible for a train on that track to go via either bridge or tunnel.
My question is: if, as all available maps indicate (including those in Peter Dougherty's great "Tracks of the NYC Subway" tome [mine came in the mail last week -- thanks Pete]), that all trains on the Brighton side of the platform *must* go over the bridge, and all trains on the Broadway/Nassau side of the platform *must* go through the tunnel, why were the signs there in the first place?
Did the ability to switch to the bridge tracks from the B'way/Nassau side disappear when the junctions north DeKalb were rebuilt, and platforms were extended north to replace the now-abandoned southern end of the platforms?
If anyone can shed any light on this, I'd appreciate it.
I'm looking forward to switching from the new Diamond-Q to the 7 at Times Square later today...I hope the escalators are working.
Rednoise
(Q-Newkirk)
Just FYI (you probably know this already), there are two up escalators from the 7 platform at Times Square. The easternmost one gets you closest to the BMT, but if that one's not working, walk over to the next one (which is paired with a down escalator). The walk is a bit longer but anything's better than the evil ramps.
If a train is on the N/B bridge platform at Dekalb there's no way to switch to the tunnel. It would have to switch south of Dekalb.
Thank you. I was reasonably sure of that much.
More specifically, what I'd like to know is...can trains from the M/N/R side of the platform change to the bridge line, or *must* they go through the tunnel? (That's the side where the illuminated signs are... yet all the maps I've seen suggest that there is no crossover available from that side of the platform to the bridge line.)
Thanks again.
Rednoise
(Q-Newkirk)
If a train is on the "bridge" track at DeKalb (or the "bypass" track), it must go over the bridge. If a train is on the "tunnel" track at DeKalb, it must go through the tunnel. Look at the north end of the station, by the exit stairway and escalator. At that point, the platform splits, with the "bridge" side higher than the "tunnel" side. The tracks are not at the same level, and therefore there can be no switch.
David
The illuminated signs on the bridge say "via bridge" at all times; the part that changes can say either "Broadway" or "Sixth Ave.". The signs on the tunnel side say "via tunnel"; they can say either "Broadway" or "Nassau". As an asside, prior to the rebuilding of DeKalb in the late 50's/early 60's, the bridge/tunnel switch was _after_ DeKalb; if you look at the layout of the pillars about 2/3 down the n/b platform, you can see traces of where the switch used to be - the pillars curve toward the tunnel track at that point.
subfan
>> ...prior to the rebuilding of DeKalb in the late 50's/early 60's, the bridge/tunnel switch was _after_ DeKalb; if you look at the layout of the pillars about 2/3 down the n/b platform, you can see traces of where the switch used to be - the pillars curve toward the tunnel track at that point. <<
I've been meaning to thank you for some time for this info. It is exactly the info I was looking for.
Thanks again.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
You're welcome - I actually picked up that info a while back from another poster, and checked it out myself. The point of this rework was to ease the bottlenecks going into Manhattan, though I'm not sure it did - it seems to me it only shifted them to north of DeKalb from south of the station. Incidentally, this change also disconnected the Manhattan-bound Brighton tracks from the DeKalb bypass tracks - for some reason, the Coney Island-bound tracks were never connected, even though an analagous trackway existed.
subfan
BTW... just to confirm, I'm talking about the Manhattan-bound platform at DeKalb Ave.
AS an aside... mayble I'll change my handle to "Newkirq"
Rednoise
(Q-Newkirk)
Rosanne and I walked through the Canal Street bridge station twice and rode through once yesterday. It certainly looks quite different from the various conditions it has been in during the last several years. It looks good, and it feels good to have what had been a ghost station be alive with trains and people.
And, just for Qtraindash7, the TA has hired for today only a "mystical girl" as a greeter on every car of the Q-diamond and the W.
Yeah I wish.
I just realized that, for 4 years anyway, the BMT, the best division, rules the Manhattan Bridge again. The evil IND has been disgracing the Southern Division long enough. It's about time the mighty BMT reclaimed the lines that were stolen from it 61 years ago.
As you can see, I am a HUGE BMT buff. At least the Southern Division wasn't butchered like the Eastern Division.
Lines the IND has stolen.
1. LIRR Far Rockaway Branch.
2. Culver line.
3. West End Line
4. Brighton Line
5. Fulton El to Lefferts.
Peter Dougherty! I know your out there. Which lines, if any, have I forgotton.
If I remember correctly, Peter isn't too fond of the IND either. I could be wrong, though.
The only cool think about the IND is that it has no constraints of what it can tunnel under. Churches, cemetarys. And, it's giant stations which I actually like.
After getting my quadruple headed Inland Route train I make the quick journey down to New Haven. There was one thing I did notice and that was that there seems to be less inland route service, notablely in the midday. Anyone have an answer to this?
Not much new at New Haven. The there is not much more work on the site of the old new engine area and the New old engine area is filled w/ P42's. The New Haven line was under construction as usual. At most locations at least one track was OOS due to the presence of MoW vehicles. At Stamford (future home of the 2012 Olmypics!) the E/B platform was in use and the center trackbed was all torn up/out. The old bridge over whatever road is there has also been torn out and the #4 track has been put on a little new single track bridge b4 it platforms. Track one b/t Stamford and NY State is still OOS for catenary replacement and at some of the interlockings it looks as if they are going to re-pole the entire getup. Some of the 1918 NH cat poles have been shired up w/ extra concrete footings. Also, our train almost hit a deer outside Stamford.
We platformed on track 4 at New Roshelle and then went to the Hell Gate line. Nothing new to report there. At GATE we crossed over and wrong-railed through HAROLD and F to enter Penn Station through the northbound Amtrak tube, platforming at track 7. In my car there was some nice western family (from CA I think) going from BOS to WDC via train and they all seemed to be having fun. Lets hope 3-4 kids turn out to be Amtrak supporters.
The NEC was pretty quiet. ACELA Express trainsets are getting quite common and I saw 3-4 throughout the entire journey. The Newark Airlink station is rapidly nearing completeion (way faster than that Secaucas connection) and out train almost hit a badger outside of FAIR interlocking.
The SEPTA zone was quiet as well. Saw a CSX freight train comming off the Delair Branch through SHORE and 2 E60 pulled trains. One Keystone and another long-haul one. We arrived 30th St. ontime. Got home via PATCO and SETPA RR.
One thing I noticed was that my ticket price was 51$. Ouch!
went from flushing to staten island and back today. about 2 hr 45 min each way, on the following:
9477 r36 (7)
???? r46 (F)
1800 r62a (6)
7781 r26 (5)
???? r44 (sirt)
442 r44 (sirt)
1666 r62a (1)
9644 r36 (7)
planning on doing some redbird photography in the nest 2 weeks. i'll let y'all know when it happens.
Just got to work at 0430, there are no less than 6 news sattelite trucks parked on 34th st at 6th ave. Looks like the media is gonna do their best to get in the way.
Peace,
ANDEE
maybe they'll all get lost due to the changes and we'll never see them again :-)
Interestingly enough, I took the shuttle from 34/6 to 57/6 at 8:00 AM and things were pretty calm. A few confused looks, but otherwise no big deal. (shuttle was R32 or R38's, car # 3847 for those keeping score at home).
It looked like there may have been the beginnings of a backlog on the southbound express track, though with a train sitting at 42/6.
CG
They want to find all the confused pax. Great news stories!! (Tic)
CBS Channel 2 was filming at 34th when I walked by. I hope i was on the news!
I was taking a joy ride to Gladstone with my dad on Sat. July 14, and while riding on the Waterfront Connection train from Newark Penn Sta. to Hoboken, we passed by a building used for a shop and maintenance area and is owned by NJ TRANSIT.
There is a rail yard for storage for NJT's ALP44 Locomotives, Comet cars, and then I saw the connected sets of the retired Arrow II's!
I am guessing that the Arrow II's that were in front of the PATH Rail Shop & Maintenance Yard has been moved to that site.
If anyone wants to see, they may freely ride (you need a ticket to Hoboken) a scheduled Waterfront Connection train from Newark to Hoboken and find out for yourself!
: )
Railfan Pete.
Thanks for finding them. You saw them at the Meadowlands Maintainence Facility. They were previously at Aldene Yard at HUDSON.
Too bad NJ Transit can't put them in service.
Continuing the trip to Gladstone with my parent, I keenly observed the rail storage area located adjacent to the Gladstone train station.
It was filled with Comet I's, 2B's, IV's and then I saw the grand car that I saw 'running the rails' of the Northeast Corridor, The former MTA owned Comet IV #5009.
I wonder if it's going to be used frequently. I have ridden on it once, and saw it stop by Metuchen, my home train station on both the inbound and outbound platforms.
What I want to know is, if the #5009 was attached to the Comet III trainset with an electric ALP44 locomotive traveling in the Northeast, how and where was it detached and reattached to fit the trip from Hoboken to the Gladstone yard?
~Interesting~
Railfan Pete.
Maybe it's used on one of the MidtownDirect trains?
Good consideration. But if it was rerouted onto the MidTown Direct line, how can the #5009 detach itself to travel to the Gladstone yard?
Or maybe, the #5009 took a little trip to the NJT Shop & Maintenance Yard right next to the Waterfront Connection rail (I forgot what it was called) and detached from there, went to Hoboken, then to Gladstone??
And they frequently use Arrow III's of the MA type on the Gladstone Branch.
~Enough of me rambling on~
Railfan Pete.
Why didn't the MTA just have the 6th Avenue S from 21st/ Queensbridge to Bway-Lafayette continue on to Grand Street - eliminating the need for 2 S trains?
The problem is no swtiches south or north of grand street. So one train goes back and fourth between Grand and B'way Lafayette. If they did it from 21st/Queensbridge. It will be 1 train to go back and fourth that would upset alot of people have a huge headway. So what they did was right. If there was a switch south or north of the Grand Street then the B and D trains would terminate there. The S train would not excist except to get passengers to Queensbridge to Rockerfeller Center.
If they did it from 21st/Queensbridge. It will be 1 train to go back and fourth that would upset alot of people have a huge headway.
Wrong. The train would still be double tracked along Sixth Avenue. The headway would be lengthened because it would take longer for a train to go one track from B'way to Grand and back than just reverse at B'way. This was acceptable when trains terminated at 57th Street, but is not acceptable now that there is a 63rd Street Line. Even if they were through-routed, that would still have to end in November when the V, with more frequent service will begin.
The S train would not excist except to get passengers to Queensbridge to Rockerfeller Center.
And where would this train end? It would still have to go south to somewhere, like Grand Street, meaning the B and D would not be able to terminate there.
According to the posted Queensbridge shuttle schedule, the shortest gap between trains is ten minutes. Headways on the Grand Street shuttle are longer.
I rode the Grand Street shuttle from B-L to Grand and back. Total elapsed time, from when the doors closed at B-L to when they opened at B-L, was 6 minutes, 47 seconds. That includes a dwell time at Grand of three or four minutes (I wasn't keeping a close eye on the watch), clearly far longer than actually necessary.
The switch between express tracks is just north of B-L. It obviously doesn't take 3 minutes, 13 seconds to pull into B-L, load and unload passengers, load and unload passengers again (on the return trip), and pull out of B-L.
Even with the unnecessarily long dwell time at Grand, the two shuttles could easily be merged while maintaining current Queensbridge shuttle headways. (Whether this would work with the V depends on the absolute minimum dwell time at Grand and on V headways. If headways are too high, how about sending alternate V's to Grand?)
Obviously, this would make life easier for Grand Street passengers. It would also simplify the confusing situation at B-L: two different routes with the same letter (at least the colors were corrected today -- the signs by the Grand shuttle track had orange S's yesterday), the southbound one on the northbound platform and the northbound one on the southbound platform.
I've proposed this before, but I hadn't yet timed the trip. Now I have, and I see that my proposal made perfect sense. Could someone from the TA please tell me why it wasn't implemented?
To clarify -- I'm not looking for an official response from the TA. I know this isn't the place to get that. I'm hoping that someone who's involved with the TA and has an insider's understanding of the system can shed light on what's wrong with my proposal.
Noticed at W 4th the orange S logos appear to be stuck on the platform signs upside-down; i.e. the larger curve on the top and the smaller on the bottom. Nit-picky, I know, but...
Check the tilework on the uptown platform at Aster Place. Some of the "S"s are upside down !!!!
Hey, I was gonna ask that question. LOL
See also 241557.
Just curious - why hasn't the MTA ever thought to route the M train after over the Williamsburg Bridge through Chrystie Street Connection and run to the Bronx or uptown Manhattan? - and then make the Z run like the M to Brooklyn?
A number of us suggeested that the new (November) V be sent over the Williamsburg Bridge via the M or J. The problem is that the V needs to be a full 600 feet long but the Eastern Division platforms are only 480 feet long.
One idea is to send the C, which is already only 480 feet long, out to the Eastern Division. Merge the C and J into a single route, running down the 8th Avenue local to W4, switching there to the F, and running over the bridge. The new V would run down 6th Avenue to W4 and terminate at WTC, with the E taking over the current C south of that point. (I'm not just sending the V out to Brooklyn since that would leave Brooklyn without weekend local service.) The M and Z would continue to run south from the Williamsburg Bridge. Extend the M on weekends (to Chambers, Broad, or somewhere in Brooklyn) so that corridor isn't neglected entirely.
A better way to perform the switch would be to swap the F and V with the C and E south of West Fourth. This way no trains would have to merge/split at West Fourth. The V would go to the World Trade Center, the F to Euclid Avenue, the C as you've said, and the E to Coney Island via Culver.
Sixth Avenue has all of its service going to Coney Island and 8th Avenue has two Fulton services. This will make things more balanced.
Switching both Sixth Ave. local trains and both Eighth Ave. locals south of West Fourth would probably create too many delays -- just swapping the V and C during rush hours would be a tight fit to avoid backing up E and F trains behind them.
Depending on the number of TPH that the V and C would run, another option would be to run the C to Jamaica, keep the F where it is and run the V through the Rutgers tunnel with the F and then switch it over to the A tracks at Jay Street to run as the Fulton local to Euclid. That would avoid the double-crossover south of West Fourth by moving one of the swtichovers to Brookyln, but would depend on being able to fit the C, F and V on the same track between West Fourth and B'way-Lafayette.
It would also leave the Brooklyn local stations unserved on weekends.
You could run the A local, but that would annoy everyone.
You could extend the E on weekends, but that means that weekend service would use a different letter and tunnel than weekday service. It would be less confusing to run the same service to Brooklyn on weekends as on weekdays -- that's why I suggested the E (which could run with the F, but I wouldn't recommend it), leaving the V to terminate at WTC.
The junctions south of West 4th are set up so such a "swap" would involve no trains crossing one another at grade.
The advantage to my proposal is that 6th Avenue locals and 8th Avenue locals each continue down both Church and Houston. Yours sends all 6th Avenue locals the same way and all 8th Avenue locals the same way, at least for the next few stops.
Now that's a good proposal. Combining the C and J into a single line would make excellent use of the 6th Av-Williamsburg Bridge connection. I say call the combined line the C and have the J replace the Z (but make the current "J-only" stops and the C making the "Z-only" stops) and use Z for 2nd Avenue (if it happens). I would definitely would like to see this happen. Plus with two lines being combined into one, some subway cars would be freed up. Combine that with the R143s going into service over the next couple of years and we might not have to worry about a car-shortage. Plus, no new construction would have to be done.
There are only about 7 Z's per rush hour at 10-12 minute intervals. What would you do with all the excess C's ?
>>One idea is to send the C, which is already only 480 feet long, out to the Eastern Division. Merge the C and J into a single route, running down the 8th Avenue local to W4, switching there to the F, and running over the bridge. The new V would run down 6th Avenue to W4 and terminate at WTC, with the E taking over the current C south of that point. (I'm not just sending the V out to Brooklyn since that would leave Brooklyn without weekend local service.) The M and Z would continue to run south from the Williamsburg Bridge. Extend the M on weekends (to Chambers, Broad, or somewhere in Brooklyn) so that corridor isn't neglected entirely.<<
This is a horrible, flawed idea.
1. You say that the E will run into Brooklyn via Fulton local. How do you plan on running 10 car E trains at 5 min. intervals? You guys don't realize that the C will still need more cars than the present 'Z' train. Further, the cars on the 'Z' are used on the J, and Z trains are J trains. There won't be any extra cars for the E train extension.
2. American Pig makes the following statement:
"Sixth Avenue has all of its service going to Coney Island and 8th Avenue has two Fulton services. This will make things more balanced."
(Sending V to Fulton as local)
What the hell? First off, local tracks do not need 'balance'. I don't know where the hell people get off with this crap. First off, I'd like to say that 6th av only has one service to Coney Island right now. Second, People from Fulton St. have a cross-platform transfer at Jay st. to the F. However, more people get on the A/C at Jay than the F. (via transfers). This is for the transfer to the 2,3,4,5 at B'way-Nassau. So, that 'switch the V at Jay' crap dumps all the people on the 'A' train. A trains would be packed like sardine cans. Finally, my third point on this matter is the crowding of 8th av trains. By the time that trains get to Chambers, it's usually possible to get a seat. By the time you leave W4th, the trains are pretty much empty. Most 'A' passengers are riding to lower manhattan. They want 6th av, they transfer. They want the IRT, they transfer. They DO NOT need a 6th av train on the Fulton local.
3. I don't see the point of combining the C and J lines. All it does is require the re-routing of trains. People east of B'way ENY on the J/Z take the A train if they want 8th av. west of that, they can ride to Fulton st. There is no reason to send a combined J/C line around, when there are perfectly good transfers.
4. Just because a connection is in place, that doesn't mean that the connection must be used. You guys are infatuated with the idea of running trains from 6th av. across the Willmsbrg. bridge. NO!!! BAD SUBTALKERS!!!! This proposal is a bad one. Routing a 6th av train across the bridge defeats the purpose of the essex transfer.
I don't know where any of you guys got all of this BS, but these service plans are horrible. In case you didn't realize, here are the results:
1. E trains (or V trains, depending on the poster) are running down Fulton st local with serious deficiencies in service.
2. C and J train merge. No extra service, few riders. (i'm serious, not many people will ride an 8th av train (a local at that) north of W4th in the AM rush. It's sole duties will include running people on CPW to 42nd, where they'll wait for an A or E instead of their straight thru C ride.
3. A train gets more passengers. A lot more. But no increases in service.
Why do you guys want to try and use that Chrystie St. connection soooo badly? It FAILED!!! GET OVER IT!
A much better idea for the V (especially now, with the F being so crowded of late) is to run as the Culver local to Church with the G and letting the F run express.
The ideal train routing, IMO, gives passengers as many options as possible. Right now, the Williamsburg Bridge leads only to Nassau Street, 8th Avenue leads only to Church Street and (for lines not terminating at WTC) Fulton Street, 6th Avenue leads only to Houston Street and (for lines not terminating at 2nd Avenue) Smith Street (and, once the tracks reopen, the Manahttan Bridge). Anybody who wants to go anywhere else has to transfer.
Passengers would be better served if there were more variety in routings. Many who have to transfer now wouldn't have to transfer anymore. Many who will still have to transfer will have better transfer points available. (Fulton is quite a bit south of the bridge, it's a pain to use, and it's not even available on weekends.) Sure, some who have a direct ride now will have to transfer across the platform.
Perhaps you've forgotten that, with the R-143 influx, there will be more cars available. Besides, terminating the V at 2nd Avenue while sending the J essentially right past it only to terminate a few stops down is a waste of cars. The only net increase in service is to the Fulton Street local, since the E runs longer and more frequent trains than the C.
I know the J and Z are treated the same now. That would have to change. Big deal.
The only actual service reduction would be on Nassau Street. Given the large crowds that use that line (that was sarcasm), I don't see that as a big deal.
Also, if you look at the map and see the indirect route the A train takes, it's quite possible a rush hour C train running express along Broadway-Brookyln would actually beat the A train to East New York, if both lines left West Fourth St. (or vice-versa) at the same time. The problem with the K train 25 years ago was it ran rush hour local on Broadway Brooklyn, negating any advantage a passenger traveling from midtown to East New York or further on to Jamaica Ave. would have by taking it instead of the A southbound or the E/F northbound in Manhattan.
The only Chrystie St. connection/B'way-Brooklyn local route that makes any sense would be one running from Canarsie to midtown, since it would give L train riders south of B'way Junction a one-seat ride there, something they don't have right now. But with CBTC coming for the L, that line will have to be stand-alone while testing is done, probably at least until the end of the decade, so the East New York flyover can't be used.
You say that the E will run into Brooklyn via Fulton local. How do you plan on running 10 car E trains at 5 min. intervals? You guys don't realize that the C will still need more cars than the present 'Z' train. Further, the cars on the 'Z' are used on the J, and Z trains are J trains. There won't be any extra cars for the E train extension.
There will be more cars with the R-143 and R-160. And it's an F extension.
(Sending V to Fulton as local)
NO! The F. The V would terminate at the World Trade Center.
What the hell? First off, local tracks do not need 'balance'.
Yes they do. People need as many options as possible to get to their destinations.
I don't know where the hell people get off with this crap. First off, I'd like to say that 6th av only has one service to Coney Island right now.
Right now is just a temporary service reroute, like when the Q ran via 6th, or the N via tunnel.
Second, People from Fulton St. have a cross-platform transfer at Jay st. to the F.
The goal is to give more people a one seat ride.
However, more people get on the A/C at Jay than the F. (via transfers). This is for the transfer to the 2,3,4,5 at B'way-Nassau.
So, if the F runs via the C line south of West 4th Street, how will that change anything? Then the people will board the A or F to get to Broadway-Nassau.
So, that 'switch the V at Jay' crap dumps all the people on the 'A' train.
I have never heard of this before you mentioned it.
A trains would be packed like sardine cans.
How? All the people wanting to get off at Fulton could just as easily get the A or the F.
Finally, my third point on this matter is the crowding of 8th av trains. By the time that trains get to Chambers, it's usually possible to get a seat. By the time you leave W4th, the trains are pretty much empty. Most 'A' passengers are riding to lower manhattan. They want 6th av, they transfer. They want the IRT, they transfer. They DO NOT need a 6th av train on the Fulton local.
Now, if they want 6th Avenue, they can get there without transfer, and still get downtown. Apparently you didn't think this through all too well.
I don't see the point of combining the C and J lines. All it does is require the re-routing of trains. People east of B'way ENY on the J/Z take the A train if they want 8th av. west of that, they can ride to Fulton st. There is no reason to send a combined J/C line around, when there are perfectly good transfers.
The whole point is to MINIMIZE transfers. One-seat rides are better than two-seat rides. Two-seat rides are better than three-seat rides.
Just because a connection is in place, that doesn't mean that the connection must be used. You guys are infatuated with the idea of running trains from 6th av. across the Willmsbrg. bridge. NO!!! BAD SUBTALKERS!!!!
Running trains along Sixth Avenue from the Williamsburg bridge is EFFICIENT. As David J. Greenberger has already said, it makes no sense to terminate the V when the J (or Z) ends only a short distance away).
This proposal is a bad one. Routing a 6th av train across the bridge defeats the purpose of the essex transfer.
Running a train defeats the purpose of a transfer? WHAT KIND OF CROCK IS THAT? You should cut down on your consumption of psychotropic drugs. Does the presence of the M15 defeat the purpose of the Second Avenue Subway?
I don't know where any of you guys got all of this BS, but these service plans are horrible. In case you didn't realize, here are the results:
1. E trains (or V trains, depending on the poster) are running down Fulton st local with serious deficiencies in service.
Neither poster advocated V trains, I clearly advocated F trains.
2. C and J train merge. No extra service, few riders. (i'm serious, not many people will ride an 8th av train (a local at that) north of W4th in the AM rush. It's sole duties will include running people on CPW to 42nd, where they'll wait for an A or E instead of their straight thru C ride.
They can transfer to other trains that offer better downtown access than Fulton Street.
3. A train gets more passengers. A lot more. But no increases in service.
This plan mentioned nothing about service frequency, how do you assume it wouldn't be increased as necessary.
Why do you guys want to try and use that Chrystie St. connection soooo badly? It FAILED!!! GET OVER IT!
The nuances of the Chrystie Street connection is lost on you, and apparently the TA. The whole purpose was to combine two trains. You yourself noted the positive aspects of that in another post.
And it failed because the K was local, the J was express.
The 6th ave/Bway Bklyn route was a good concept.It failed as a valid line because of the way the TA operated it. The route should have been express on Broadway to andfrom ENY[WITH skipstop service to JAMAICA] AND the replaced the J as the 24hour service .
....and WHO are you?
A friend.
>>There will be more cars with the R-143 and R-160. And it's an F extension.<<
There's something called a spare fleet. Right now, it's really small. After the V arrives, it will be even smaller. The R-143 just fixes this. The R-160 only makes an extra 53 cars.
The F should not be changed from Coney Island. That would be pointless.
>>Yes they do. People need as many options as possible to get to their destinations.<<
The xfer at Jay accomplishes this. efficiently too.
>>Right now is just a temporary service reroute, like when the Q ran via 6th, or the N via tunnel.<<
That's your idea of temporary? Ask #4 Sea Beach Fred about that being 'temporary'...
>>The goal is to give more people a one seat ride.<<
Blah, blah, blah. That one seat ride crap is just that: crap. The F serves it sufficently. Transfer!
>>So, if the F runs via the C line south of West 4th Street, how will that change anything? Then the people will board the A or F to get to Broadway-Nassau.<<
Again, the F should continue running to Coney Island. I thought that you were talking about the E or V.
>>The whole point is to MINIMIZE transfers. One-seat rides are better than two-seat rides. Two-seat rides are better than three-seat rides.<<
Whose point are you talking about? Yours, maybe. But the TA's is to move the trains along as speedily as possible. All this switching will slow things down, and further, there will still be lots of transfering. This whole One seat point is foolish. Transfers are sufficient.
Running trains along Sixth Avenue from the Williamsburg bridge is EFFICIENT. As David J. Greenberger has already said, it makes no sense to terminate the V when the J (or Z) ends only a short distance away).
If the V could continue to Broad, that would be good, but in neither direction would this be efficient.
>>Running a train defeats the purpose of a transfer? WHAT KIND OF CROCK IS THAT? You should cut down on your consumption of psychotropic drugs. Does the presence of the M15 defeat the purpose of the Second Avenue Subway?<<
Simple. The few people who do transfer from the J to the F would not warrant a whole new service. And this proposed C service benefits no one, as I've said.
>>Neither poster advocated V trains, I clearly advocated F trains<<
That's even worse.
>>They can transfer to other trains that offer better downtown access than Fulton Street.<<
So basically, you want the Fulton riders to have one-seat rides, but the CPW riders to loose theirs. Are you looking at what you're posting?
>>This plan mentioned nothing about service frequency, how do you assume it wouldn't be increased as necessary.<<
There would not be enough cars.
>>The nuances of the Chrystie Street connection is lost on you, and apparently the TA. The whole purpose was to combine two trains. You yourself noted the positive aspects of that in another post.<<
I advocated thru-routing on a single line. The connecction of the C and J is pointless, the C is already thru-routed to Fulton, and serves downtown manhattan for it's CPW riders. There's no point in doing this, because, NO ONE rides the C north of W4th in the am hours. Thus, people coming from the Broadway el will not ride the C train north of W4th, maybe not even at all, only riding the present J route. Similarly, people north of W4th do not ride the Broadway el. So, this C will collect local CPW passengers, and again, will dump them off somewhere they can continue south on 8th av. (W4th or 42nd, depending on the riders intelligence).
I see no benefits from this. No one will benefit from that C/J line. The F should continue to Coney Island with the V running Culver local. ALL people south of Church on the F who are headed to Manhattan would benefit from this rather than the few people who would benefit from this utterly senseless plan.
American Pig, you have some good ideas, but some of them are just ridiculous. (i.e. the 'No Hillside express' plan. You say that people at local stops shouldn't have to endure local rides. Therefore, the Concourse line exp., the C from 145 to 168, 4th av exp., and Fulton Local should not be run at all.)
This is a ridiculous idea.
There's something called a spare fleet. Right now, it's really small. After the V arrives, it will be even smaller. The R-143 just fixes this. The R-160 only makes an extra 53 cars.
The R-160 order can still be modified.
The xfer at Jay accomplishes this. efficiently too.
Through train service is better.
Again, the F should continue running to Coney Island. I thought that you were talking about the E or V.
It should not. The B or D can take passengers to Coney Island.
Whose point are you talking about? Yours, maybe. But the TA's is to move the trains along as speedily as possible. All this switching will slow things down.
There will be no more switching. The junction south of West 4th Street is designed for a switchless swap. Running C trains through to the east would minimize switching as there would be fewer terminals to work with.
and further, there will still be lots of transfering. This whole One seat point is foolish. Transfers are sufficient.
They are NOT sufficient. Again, one seat rides are better. A transfer is an inconvenience, especially one that involves stairs, ramps or long walks.
That's [F train] even worse.
Why?
So basically, you want the Fulton riders to have one-seat rides, but the CPW riders to loose theirs. Are you looking at what you're posting?
They have the A.
There would not be enough cars.
We've already mentioned that.
I advocated thru-routing on a single line. The connecction of the C and J is pointless, the C is already thru-routed to Fulton, and serves downtown manhattan for it's CPW riders. There's no point in doing this, because, NO ONE rides the C north of W4th in the am hours. Thus, people coming from the Broadway el will not ride the C train north of W4th, maybe not even at all, only riding the present J route. Similarly, people north of W4th do not ride the Broadway el. So, this C will collect local CPW passengers, and again, will dump them off somewhere they can continue south on 8th av. (W4th or 42nd, depending on the riders intelligence).
The point of through routing the C and J is for through-routing. I've always wanted to swap the E and F, but dealing with the C was the problem. This solves it.
I see no benefits from this. No one will benefit from that C/J line. The F should continue to Coney Island with the V running Culver local. ALL people south of Church on the F who are headed to Manhattan would benefit from this rather than the few people who would benefit from this utterly senseless plan.
OK, then send the C and E via Culver, end the V or F at WTC and continue the F or V to Euclid.
American Pig, you have some good ideas, but some of them are just ridiculous. (i.e. the 'No Hillside express' plan. You say that people at local stops shouldn't have to endure local rides. Therefore, the Concourse line exp., the C from 145 to 168, 4th av exp., and Fulton Local should not be run at all.)
OK. My Hillside plan makes no sense, I will agree.
>>The R-160 order can still be modified.<<
True.
>>Through train service is better.<<
For an individual passenger, yes. For the overall system, no. That's ineffecient.
>>It should not. The B or D can take passengers to Coney Island.<<
What train runs down Culver. That it runs to Coney Island is irrelevant, the Culver line is the important part.
>>There will be no more switching. The junction south of West 4th Street is designed for a switchless swap. Running C trains through to the east would minimize switching as there would be fewer terminals to work with.<<
True, but the C should still not be run to BMT east.
>>They are NOT sufficient. Again, one seat rides are better. A transfer is an inconvenience, especially one that involves stairs, ramps or long walks.<<
Again, they are sufficient. The people who would benefit from the re-routes would not be enough for the cost of running these trains. The Jay st transfer is an excellent system. As I said, More people go from Culver to 8th av than Fulton to 6th av.
>>Why?[Is the F worse]<<
Again, not enough cars, what train runs down Culver, etc, etc...
>>They have the A.<<
I was referring to the local stops.
>>We've already mentioned that.[shortage of cars]<<
Yes, and at present, even with the R-160's on order, there just aren't enough.
>>The point of through routing the C and J is for through-routing. I've always wanted to swap the E and F, but dealing with the C was the problem. This solves it.<<
Ah-ha! this is why you want that plan! For your own sadistic pleasures!
The C already Runs to Fulton Local. I just said it's already Through Routed. Want to Through route the J, run it to Brooklyn. There's no reason to swap the C. People always say that: 'trains have shared terminals (6th av, 8th av and Broadway trains), but how many people really ride from 34th st to Coney Island? Most get off between these stops. There is no reason for any swaps. This is Even with the swap, examine the following:
2 men (or women, just to be politically correct) ride from 34th and 6th av. one is headed for Kings Hwy. The other wants to go to Ralph av. Under present service, the F gives one man the 'one-seat' ride, and the other must transfer. Swap this and the other man has the one-seat ride, but not the first one. See the problem? With the current service, the C stays put. And, that's what the TA needs, the C to stay put.
>>OK, then send the C and E via Culver, end the V or F at WTC and continue the F or V to Euclid.<<
That's just silly. As I've stated before, many A/C riders board at Canal, Chambers and B'way Nassau, and swapping these lines, doesn't fix a thing, they'll still be transferring to the Culver lines.
Again, transfers are sufficient for efficient operation. If this system could be suited to all riders, each Brooklyn/Bronx/Queens line would have a line that runs into each major trunk line in manhattan (much like Queens Blvd is.). But, that's not possible, now is it?
By offering a flexible system (with 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue, Williamsburg Bridge, and Fulton Street service going to a variety of places), more origin-destination pairs would be transfer-free than are currently. Of those that do require transfers, many would be on the same platform -- e.g., C to A at W4 for those continuing south on the former C route, C to M at Marcy for those continuing south on the former J route, etc. The messy transfers at Essex and Fulton will be eased a great deal by these changes.
Look at CPW today. There's one local service and one express service to each of 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue. The arrangement could be "simplified" by, e.g., sending all 8th Avenue service express and all 6th Avenue service local, but more people would need to transfer.
Look at 4th Avenue in Brooklyn. Some lines run via bridge and others via tunnel. No matter which you want, the worst you have to deal with is an easy transfer at Pacific. (Except on weekends, when there are no bridge services from 4th Avenue, so the bridge is inaccessible from the W without either a long walk or a double transfer.)
Look at the Brooklyn IRT. For "simplicity," should the 2 and 3 both go to Flatbush and the 4 and 5 both go to New Lots or Utica? No, since the current arrangement allows many passengers to go directly where they need to go without transferring, and those who do need to transfer (i.e., those at local stations bound for the East Side) can do so easily at Franklin or Nevins.
>>By offering a flexible system (with 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue, Williamsburg Bridge, and Fulton Street service going to a variety of places), more origin-destination pairs would be transfer-free than are currently. Of those that do require transfers, many would be on the same platform -- e.g., C to A at W4 for those continuing south on the former C route, C to M at Marcy for those continuing south on the former J route, etc. The messy transfers at Essex and Fulton will be eased a great deal by these changes.<<
This simplifies only the Transfer at essex. Further, As I have stated, and will continue to state, the C becomes basically just a shuttle for people. Few riders are going to take the C from say 59th/8th av to Marcy. This wastes the C train. Further, the transfers are not 'messy'. They're perfectly fine, and there's no reason to re-open the Chrystie St. connection.
>>Look at CPW today. There's one local service and one express service to each of 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue. The arrangement could be "simplified" by, e.g., sending all 8th Avenue service express and all 6th Avenue service local, but more people would need to transfer.<<
That would complicate matters. The C would have to crossover from the local tracks to the express tracks. So, that's out of the picture. Then you have the B/D. One local, one express. That's simple, and it serves the people well, unlike that C train.
>>Look at 4th Avenue in Brooklyn. Some lines run via bridge and others via tunnel. No matter which you want, the worst you have to deal with is an easy transfer at Pacific. (Except on weekends, when there are no bridge services from 4th Avenue, so the bridge is inaccessible from the W without either a long walk or a double transfer.)<<
Look at 8th av/6th av. The worst you have to deal with is a cross platform Jay st. transfer or a walk up the stairs at W4th. Big deal.
>>Look at the Brooklyn IRT. For "simplicity," should the 2 and 3 both go to Flatbush and the 4 and 5 both go to New Lots or Utica? No, since the current arrangement allows many passengers to go directly where they need to go without transferring, and those who do need to transfer (i.e., those at local stations bound for the East Side) can do so easily at Franklin or Nevins.<<
All of these analogies which you have stated are poor comparisons. Nonoe of them requires complete re-routing of a subway line, rather just one less switch. The plans that you have proposed would have the C not even touching Fulton st. subway and changing the whole IND south of W4th. If you're going to make a comparison, make one that fits.
And, while the stated plans might eliminate some transfers, it would not be efficient. The transfers in place are plenty good enough.
This simplifies only the Transfer at essex.
And the transfer at Fulton, especially for those who used to transfer there to the A/C, but also for some IRT riders.
Further, As I have stated, and will continue to state, the C becomes basically just a shuttle for people. Few riders are going to take the C from say 59th/8th av to Marcy. This wastes the C train.
I don't know what this means. Every line is just a shuttle for people -- what's it supposed to be? The C and J aren't among the most popular routes in the system, so of course their merger won't suddenly soar to the top of the charts, but it will be useful for some.
Do you have demographic information that I'm unaware of that indicates that people are more likely to commute between CPW and Fulton (Brooklyn) than between CPW and Broadway (Brooklyn)? That Williamsburg Bridge travelers are more likely to be heading south of the bridge in Manhattan than north of it? In any case, my proposal keeps all the current options available (either directly or with a single same-platform transfer) while opening new ones for those going elsewhere.
Further, the transfers are not 'messy'. They're perfectly fine, and there's no reason to re-open the Chrystie St. connection.
The transfer at Essex involves narrow platforms, narrow staircases, and narrow passageways. It's a lot worse than hopping off one train and on another at Broadway-Lafayette (where, incidentally, the 6th Avenue express also happens to stop).
The transfer at Fulton to the IND isn't too bad, although it's still a lot worse than hopping across the platform or staying on the same train. The transfer there to the IRT is horrible, since the BMT itself gets in the way.
And none of these transfers will be eliminated. There will still be service to Essex and Fulton. There will also be service to the north.
All of these analogies which you have stated are poor comparisons. Nonoe of them requires complete re-routing of a subway line, rather just one less switch. The plans that you have proposed would have the C not even touching Fulton st. subway and changing the whole IND south of W4th. If you're going to make a comparison, make one that fits.
But the IND system was designed from the start to allow for swaps like these with a minimum of effort. (It's one of the few things I like about the IND.) What gives you the idea that the current service patterns serve passengers better than the ones I proposed?
What's wrong with the C not serving Fulton? C passengers bound for Fulton can easily transfer to the A or E, which will serve Fulton.
And, while the stated plans might eliminate some transfers, it would not be efficient. The transfers in place are plenty good enough.
Ah, I see. I have no business suggesting changes, even if they'd improve matters, because matters are good enough as they stand. I thought you had something against my plan (or AP's) specifically, but you appear to be arguing against progress in general.
"Why do you guys want to try and use that Chrystie St. connection soooo badly? It FAILED!!! GET OVER IT!"
A number of connections exist that are not currently in use. They have value today in allowing the TA to quickly re-route trains around temporary blockages (fire, medical emergency, power failure at a substation, etc.), and to offer special services at specific times or events.
So they're not wasted,
>>So they're not wasted,<<
I'm not saying they're wasted, i'm saying that they're not for revenue service.
Granted.
Case in point: the switches south of W. 4th St. They're not used in regular revenue service, but they come in mighty handy for emergency reroutes.
The only thing I agree with is the "V" via Wmsburg Br. on Broadway Bklyn and so to Canarsie after leaving Eastern Pkwy. And this would be RUSH HOURS ONLY.
wayne
Because that would make the BMT cool. The TA can't have that, now can they?
I hung around 57th and Broad this morning to watch the (Q)/'s relay. Funny the uptown starting lights/bell is broken. It just keeps ringing every 30 seconds or so even when there is no train on the track (Mr. Dispatcher did you live the switch on?).
No announcements were made to the fact that you might arrive on the downtown platform and if you wanted a connection to other (Gawd I love saying this) BMT services (alright forget about the R train) you should have switched at 42nd St. A lot of C/R's make this announcement at Sheepshead Bay when riding the Brighton Express.
Trains were piling up coming up to 57th from 34th on. The local N train did beat us from 34th street on as we crawled up. Our Q local arrived on the downtown with another Q local on the uptown. I did the "Up and Over" as that Q local left.
A Q express came it and BAM, new crew jumps on, she is charged up and off she goes (following sensitive rolling test). Right on the heals "DING" on the downtown platform the Q local I arrived on is told to move out. I can't see the signal, I wonder if it cleared so fast after the Q express left.
Every Q arriving was meet with an announcement on how to transfer for further service. There were platform conductors as well as the new crews milling about as well.
Interesting for the first Rush.
My publisher has given me preliminary approval to begin my third book. It will be a combined effort covering the transit systems of Baltimore, Boston, and Philadelphia. Baltimore and Philly are accounted for. What I need to find out is what inexpensive accomodations exist in the Boston area and how can I learn about its old El routes (I assume that no Els exist up there)?
E_DOG
Boston still has el running, mainly on the Green Line north of Haymarket. And lots of surface/grade running, such as the Green Line outside of downtown; Blue Line north of Maverick; Red Line south of JFK/Umass; Orange Line north of Haymarket.
Inexpensive accomodations in Boston! HAH! Most places are over $250/nite these days. Maybe the YMCA on Huntington Ave. if you can handle that. Otherwise, venture out of town a bit, such as to Woburn (Anderson Station on Lowell commuter rail) where you can find under $100 rooms at the Marriott Courtyard or Fairfield.
From the Boston Street Railway Association (BSRA) Web site you can find a host of books and videos on historic Boston rail topics.
>>>>>>Inexpensive accomodations in Boston! HAH! Most places are over $250/nite these days. Maybe the YMCA on Huntington Ave. if you can handle that. Otherwise, venture out of town a bit, such as to Woburn (Anderson Station on Lowell commuter rail) where you can find under $100 rooms at the Marriott Courtyard or Fairfield.
Either that or he can rent a refridgerator box in Ruggles for $10.
If you are looking to stay in Boston on the cheap, the Motel 6 in Braintree is a good bet. It's miles from downtown, but a three minute walk from the Red Line terminus.
It's cheap and clean and as long as you don't mind the long subway ride into town it's great. There is also a commuter rail station at Braintree if you are interested in exploring.
That refrigerator box is now a combination Starbuck's and Cheer's tee-shirt shop..... Sorry!
Oh great, there go my plans for a visit.
I hear that they've got a few available in Lynn.
>>>Inexpensive accomodations in Boston! HAH! Most places are over $250/nite these days.<<<
When I'm up there I stay at a place in downtown Brookline for abt $100 a night. You can find 'em...
www.forgotten-ny.com
What are the titles of your first two books? Just want to know whether I already have your books.
Chaohwa
The first one is "A Tale of Ten Cities", Volume One, "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York". It can be purchased from barnesnoble.com or amazon.com. Try the former since the delivery time is faster and it comes at a 10% discount. Volume Two, "Windy Rails: The Elevated Railroad and the Transformation of Chicago" is a week from completion and is due to be sent to my publisher the first week in August.
Eric D. Smith
Thanks a lot, Eric! :)
I don't have this book. So I am going to buy it right away.
Chaohwa
No, thank you.
E_DOG
I assume that no Els exist up there
there is one but like the others its gonna be demolished.
There's a place called the Milner Hotel near the Theater District (I forget exactly which street it's on). It's a bit of a dive, but it's only about $100 a night and you get a private bathroom. Also, it's only a couple blocks away from the Boylston stop on the Green Line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I got two of the multi-lingual (pink) copies and have come up with a list of errors I noted:
1. The local CPW D train. There is no indication whatsoever about local D service on CPW when the B does not run. Also, I noted the B is called the 6th Avenue Express/CPW Local while the D is just the 6th Avenue Express.
2. No M to 9th Avenue but we all know that isn't on there.
Now for some more minor things:
3. The Q at Times Square is light face. Hard to notice since its a black Q over top of the blue line for 8th Avenue. All other Qs on the map are bold as they should be.
4. Along the Brighton Line, there are now two yellow lines at local stations like on the Pelham and Flushing lines. The text reading "Brighton Line" was moved out of the way of the express Q but the text reading E 15 St was not.
5. On the accessible station list, the diamond Q for 14th Street appears to be raised, it has a shadow behind it.
If I find more, I will try to post ASAP.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
I don't think the D runs local ever.
The map indicates it's always express. The schedule indicates it's always express. The D I boarded yesterday (a weekend, so it "should" have been running local) was on the express track at 59th.
Weekend CPW local service has been cut.
That's right - according to the new schedule, the D is express 24/7. The A runs local at night.
The "D" , the only overnight eXXXXXXXXXXXpress in the city.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, the Q is express also. In keeping with the TA's general policy of preferring two local services overnight to one local and one express, both the D and the Q should really run local -- but, at least for the Q, the TA didn't want to cause even more confusion.
The 4 bypasses Hoyt on the express tracks, but that's only because the local tracks only lead to the 7th Avenue line in Manhattan. The R(!) bypasses two local stations on 4th Avenue northbound, I guess so it can turn at 36th, but southbound trains stop, as do N trains in both directions.
It's a pain in the ass to switch the Q local at Prince and back express at 57th, all for four stops.
Five. And how is it a pain to switch?
Not exactly a pain, but it's less work. Less wear on the switches and all that. It's simpler.
The TA doesn't apply that reasoning to the 2, 4, E, or F, all of which switch from the express tracks to the local tracks at night. Why should it be applied to the Q?
But the E and F don't have to switch back to the express again, and would have to switch local again anyway. Plus there's no other local service, sending one express and the other local would incur the wrath of whoever was stuck with the local. The 2 and 4 do switch express and have another local service, but it's a helluva lot more than five stops, and several of the local stops on these lines are major transfer points (Bleecker, Canal, 51st, 59th). Also, unlike the Q/N relationship, the 4 and 2 serve additional stops within Manhattan that the 6 and 1 do not cover, passengers wishing to go short distances would have to wait twice at 20 minute headways instead of once if they did not run local.
The (Q) is just a D in diguise, so my statement stands.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Weekend CPW local service has been cut."
What about the C? Or did we forget about it b/c it is ranked the worst line in the system?
The C remains unchanged
Cut, not eliminated. Reduced, if that makes you feel any better. Weekend local CPW service used to be provided by the B and C; now it's provided by only the C. And I think the weekday B has greater headways than it did last week. This despite assurances that the B and D north of 34th would be providing "normal service."
Remember, before november CPW was the C only anyway. This is, essentially, normal service.
No it's not. The issue isn't what service pattern is warranted -- it's whether the TA's brochure should simply ignore a significant service change just because it has nothing to do with Brooklyn, Grand Street, or Queensbridge.
The map never indicated the B as running up CPW on weekends. The B was always in lightface print. Some signage was changed, but that's it.
Though you're right, they should have made some mention of it. But really, who actually waits for a B when they could take a C to 59th and possibly get a D, or a D to 59th and possibly get a C?
What was printed on the map or on the signs isn't the point.
Of course, now, there's no point in waiting specifically for a weekend B, although some people dislike changing trains for whatever reason and would insist on waiting for a B rather than taking a C to a D (or maybe they don't know the subway system and are just working from directions, which are stated as simply as possible and omit possible time-saving moves).
More important is that weekend headways at the local stations (which, IME, have become relatively popular lately) have doubled with no warning. I don't know about you, but I'm often willing to walk a few extra blocks to reach a station with shorter waits -- I'm sure some of those CPW patrons would prefer to walk to an express stop or to the 1/9 if only they were informed of the change.
One sentence would have sufficed: "There is no weekend B service."
Okay, I concede. They should have said something. Also like Astoria riders should have had better notice of the W express. But people are figuring things out now.
You forgot the "V" at Roosevelt Avenue,
I don't really see a reason why the (B) and (D) should be named the 6th Avenue Express, since it doesn't even run express on 6th Avenue anymore. They terminate at 34th Street, and the only time the (B) and (D) would go express on 6th Avenue is between 34th Street and W. 4th Street. So why not just name the (B) Central Park West local and the (D) Central Park West express?
Look at the West 8 Street station in brooklyn. The way they have it indicated it says the Q and F lines stops there but the stop circle is only on the Q and just shortly the N joins instead of coming from the top of the coney island terminal like the N does on other maps.
You won't find that on MY subway map!
When I say that, I mean that I drew up my own map.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/info/
Pretty cool! You actually emulated a *.pdf map that I have dated Sept 1997 that has the service descriptions in the upper right corner. I have not posted it for the rest of the railfans on this board because I interpret any electronic files that originally came from the MTA is copyrighted, therefore it is for private use only. I'm sure the webmaster will have a problem with that. Is that correct Mr. Pirrman.
Jose
You can post links to whatever you want. It's hosted on your own web space it's up to you to be responsible for the content.
All I see is an outline of the boroughs and an empty colored table on the upper right. No text and no actual subway lines. (I guess it can't have any errors, then.)
If the PDF loads inside the browser, the whole thing doesn't load immediately.
very good
1. Woodhaven Blvd. station callout: No Q57 bus exists there, but is listed. Actually, I don't think a Q57 bus even exists!
2. 75th Avenue: Labelled as E-F, but still has a half-dot on the F.
3. Queens, near 40th Street (7) station: Street nearby labeled "STEINWAY ST." Steinway Street stops at Northern Blvd.
4. Brooklyn, near Nassau Avenue (G) station: Street labeled "NASSAU ST."
Rode the R to City Hall - interesting to note that there were an M train laying up btw Canal and City Hall on the northbound express track, and there was a "R" that was laid up going into the LL platform and was actually in the station on the lower level - saw from the stairs going down. Guess all work is done with the LL of City Hall.
I layed up a N train there Sunday Night. I did not know that the Platform can only handly 8 60footer. I is still a very poorly lite station
Robert
Why was a Mary being laid up on the Broadway BRT?
By the Kent Ave. entrance there are about 10 trolleys or buses or trains all lined up. I drove by fast and couldn't really get a good look. I think they had some symbol on them "MTR", but could not tell. Has anyone else seen them?
Wonder if it has anything to do with the Red Hook Trolleys. Supposedly they are getting 10 or 12 cars from Buffalo. Wonder if they are floating them down the Erie Canal / Hudson River ?
These are 11 of the 12 ex-Shaker Heights PCC's the Brooklyn Historic Railway bought from the Buffalo NFTA in March of this year. The 12th car (#70) is down at our place in Red Hook being worked on, and is operational.
These cars join the 3 ex-T PCC's which are planned for a "heritage" trolley route headed toward downtown Brooklyn.
It's fun working on these cars, and I'm just about to head down to the shop to go get filthy.
Uhm... can you tell me where i might find more info about this trolley line? I've heard about it for awhile now, but nothing specific like where it will run to-from, etc. is there a site one might visit?
Also, is the warehouse where the cars are being worked on that one across the street from the old LV barge? I was down there last weekend and spotted the strip of track with 2 cars wrapped in blue stuff there...
There isn't a site that is updated yet, both are unofficial productions about the BHRA, but not BY the BHRA. This site has some photos of last year's operations on the pier with ex-Oslo #3, and in work shots of 3321. IT is one of the things that we have been meaning to do, just not gotten roundtoit yet.
Yep, that is the shop so far, if you come around the corner, you will see another blue wrapped car with us roasting inside replacing the old green tinted and now nearly opaque lexan windows. That is ex-SHRT 70, the previous car in the St. Louis Car Co. litter to Newark's #21.
I tried getting into the Navy Yard yesterday to take a few photos, but security wouldn't let me though, even with my press credential.
-Hank
That means they are doing their job!!
If you'd like to see them up close, email me off list, and I would be glad to give you a tour.
:-)
Jan
Be glad to email you, if your email address was shown (it isn't). Feel free to email me...
-Hank
May I join this tour also. Would like to see the new arrivals.
My email address is listed above.
Can I join too?
Sorry about leaving my email off, it recently changed.
I will have to see if we can do a joint tour with the folks visting from the Baltimore Trolley Museum next week. Will let you guys know when I get the real info.
Just advice - wear old clothes, we haven't given the Navy Yard cars a bath yet!
If you want, come down to Red Hook and see the 98% done Boston 3303, and the progress made on SHRT 70. You can actually see out the car now and almost everything works the way its supposed to. 70 is operable now, but we are making adjustments. The car has sat for a long time.
from the Boston Globe
from the Boston Herald
Nice gesture, but it worries me that a train that arrives 29 minutes late is considered on-time.
A 29 minute late train is not considered on-time. The policy take into consideration that all public transit will have some kind of problems at times. They have picked 30 minutes late as a number that they consider unacceptable and worthy of a refund. On the subway, after 10 minutes, everybody involved is writing out reports on the incident. This can include guards, motormen, inspectors, train starters, supervisors and dispatchers.
Usually, if a delay on the subway reaches the 30 minute mark, busses will have already been called out.
As the article states, it has affected commuter rail far more than other modes. Part of this was a new interlocking on the corridor that required some extra break in time to get right. The other major cause is dead engines out at the far ends of the lines. The spares are kept at North or South Station areas and in many cases would require an hour just to get to the end of the line for the rescue.
I was just looking at Nostalgia train photos on Oren H.'s website (Nice pix--thanks, Oren!)
When did the Triplexes get those headlights? I don't ever recall Triplexes getting headlights, probably because they were considered too close to the torch (sniff) when they were putting them on the Standards and even the Qs.
Am I misremembering? Did they have to do that? It's really jarring and anachronistic, like seeing a picture of Richard Nixon wearing a nose ring.
>>>...picture of Richard Nixon wearing a nose ring. <<<
HAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Peace,
ANDEE
The headlights were added much later on as a requirement for all equipment operating in the subway (the same was done to the LoV's that were still around and the R1-9 cars).
Early Sunday AM while I was riding the one of the lines (I cant remember which one) the TO was in training and the trainer was standing next to her straddling her door and the railfan window. He was counting the signals as she passed them and it got very annoying after the first 100 or so. Why was he doing this? Anyone in the know?
>>>>>He was counting the signals as she passed them and it got very annoying after the first 100 or so. Why was he doing this? Anyone in the know?
I have absolutely no idea as to why they were doing this. The TA does not teach us anything about counting signals.
Probably had nothing better to do.
Someone training a student on a Sunday? on the first day of a new pick? huh?
Hmmm, perhaps some extra-curricular activities going on?
there is absolutely no reason to count signals. perhaps you mis-interpretted what was going on. There is much information gained by reading the information on the signal plate, though. Perhaps that's what he was teaching the trainee.
Maybe it was SubTalk's own Larry Littlefield, railfan and financial wizard of signals?!
The last boxcar was pulled out of the Howard Street Tunnel at 7:10 this morning, filled with smoking typing paper. Once the carbon monoxide levels in the tunnel drop to normal the engineers (CSX, NTSB, FRA, MTA and Baltimore City) will enter and examine the tunnel for danage. Surveys will be done to see if the DPW can begin to repair the broken 40 inch water main at Howard & Lombard. The repair parts are on hand, as soon as the green light is given the main and streets will be repaired.
It is expected that Howard Street will be still be restricted to all traffic until the tunnel is pronounced safe.
Light Rail tracks on Howard were damaged and will will have to be relaid/repaired before LRV's again roll on Howard Street.
However, the fire's out and all cars, burned and soot-covered, have been removed from the tunnel. No one was seriously injured, and emergency crews, Fire Department personnel (Baltimore City and surrounding counties) and CSX and FRA/NTSB people did a marvelous job.
>>>No one was seriously injured, and emergency crews, Fire Department personnel (Baltimore City and surrounding counties) and CSX and FRA/NTSB people did a marvelous job. <<<
Yes, they did a wonderful job. Congratulations to all concerned.
Peace,
ANDEE
We drove thru Baltimore yesterday & today via I-95 and saw no visible
signs of smoke. Kudos to all who cleaned up this horrible wreck.
Chuck Greene
Yeah, they pulled the last two smoking boxcars out of the tunnel.
A fantastic job done by all concerned!
Additional details and pictures from the Baltimore Sun
I rode the W today. I got on at lex and 59. rode it to Astoria. From Astoria all the way to CI. the W is 1 hour and 24 minutes. We left Astoria at 9 and got to CI at 1024. Also whats with this Diamond W. when is that? i saw several W trains during rush hour with the sign. it was nice but weird.....
>>>>>>Also whats with this Diamond W. when is that?
The diamond W's are only found on the old roll signs. The ones that you had seen weren't replaced yet.
[The ones that you had seen weren't replaced yet.]
Those are mostly found in the middle of those 4-car sets found on the (W).
I will take a ride on the W Train tommorow afternoon. As well as joy rideing on the E,F,J,L,M,N,Q,R and 2,5,6,7 Lines. I also have to go to an IRT Terminal to see if there is anything for me to pick.
I have just uploaded 22 new MARC photos from a recent trip. Go to www.trainweb.org/nyrail and click on the "maryland Mass transit Administration" link.
Enjoy!
-Dan
New York Area Railroads
I have a question about cab car #7748. Is it supposed to be made by Sumitomo?
Chaohwa
Is it? I thought is was Bombardier.
It is indeed made by Sumitomo. You can look here.
Also, here is a webpage about MARC's rolling stock.
Chaohwa
i enjoyed the Ride of Both a R68 and R68A on the W today. number 2896 went express in queens, towards manhattan. Maybe thats what the diamond is for. Anyways according to a Superintendent at Queensboro plaza, the first returning express is the 1206 from stillwell
It's pretty simple, the diamond stands for rush hour service. The regular circle design is for normal day-long service, some of which refer back to the local rails.
Railfan Pete.
>>>>>>>It's pretty simple, the diamond stands for rush hour service.
That used to be the singular meaning. Now, not only does it stand for rush hour service, but it also stands for special express service (i.e. diamonds on the 6, 7, J, Q.)
The diamond means nothing on the W -- except that the sign in question is old.
The local-express pattern on the W in Queens is determined solely by the time of day. In the morning, every W runs express southbound and local northbound. In the afternoon, every W runs express northbound and local southbound. The shape doesn't signify a thing -- just use your watch and listen to the announcements.
The splitting point is 1PM, for some reason...
Does anyone know what equipment will be used in this shuttle?
Nick
4 R46's is what I believe Train Dude said left Stillwell as the last thing over the North Bridge Sunday night.
Following cars form Grand Street shuttle
5624-5625-5623-5622
Wouldn't that be a horrible job operating that thing 8 hours a day. Boooooring!
Your choices are as follows:
Do the Job.
Be Unemployed.
-Hank
Boooooring never sounded so good.
At least the Grand Street Shuttle sounds good now. Remember the square wheeled jobs we had the last time we ran it?
I remember those! Were they R16's or r27's?
They were the dirtiest, graffiti covered, loud trains.
It was fun riding in the front cab though wrong railing!
"I remember those! Were they R16's or r27's?"
They were R-27/30's. Seemingly all had flat wheels, and graffitied too.
Bill "Newkirk"
The last time they ran it was with slant R40's.
If you're referring to the time with the R30's, I'm still surprized that those suckers somehow stayed on the tracks.
Your choices are as follows:
Do the Job.
Be Unemployed.
-Hank
Ummm...hmm...er..I choose "-Hank."
Dan
Um.....
Question....
Are you choosing to be Hank.....OR TO DO HANK?!??!?!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Whoa! I AM NOT A CHOICE!
-Hank :)
Um...No comment.
Dan
Shit.I would love to drive a train for 8 hours a day.
Wow! I've never heard anyone say that before. Of course it takes a rare breed of person to drive a train. You need to be a really inventive person - take a big step and apply for the job. Nah, that sounds too complicated. Wait until the TA calls, looking for you.
Train dud, why are you such a nasty negative individual?
If the man has a dream then this is the forum to air such things. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to work for NYC transit for various reasons.
Stop being such a non-witty moron, relax we aren't your cleaners at your "yard" where ever that is.
Remember those times you rode in the cab of the LIRR engines, maybe at heart thats what you would have liked to do.
>>>Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to work for NYC transit ...<<
I consider myself lucky in that I don't work for them....8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Operators are standing by ...
That wasn't a very kind post TD.
Not very kind? Perhaps not kind but I think the advice was dead-on point. Did you wait until the TA called you? Not at all. You went out and got the job. It's the same advice I'd give anyone. Don't whine about it. If you want it, get off your dead ass and work for it.
>>>>>Did you wait until the TA called you? Not at all. You went out and got the job
Actually I took the test.........then I waited until the TA called me.........and when they did I went out and got the job.
So I check the box marked "all of the above".
Methinks a manager hath "morale" issues. Moo, dewd, bustini, bustini, ignore that man in the blue jacket with handle's Messiah. :)
Hey Ferdie,
What is it with you. People post mild flamage all the time about many people. Yet it seems that that I'm the only one you ever call to task. Why is that, ferdie. Could you have an alterior motive???
My turn!
It's 'ulterior'
-Hank :)
You are correct and the A & U are not close enough to each other to call it a type-O. Now does this constitute a minor mistake or is it a major slaughter of the English language?
Depends on if you've taken to writing grammar flames or not...
But you know how to take me. Number-one nitpicker.
-Hank :)
Who's Ferdie?
Peace,
ANDEE
I can say from experience that certain shuttles can be rather monotonous.
A good shuttle is the Rockaway Park Shuttle where the average assignment comprises 8 or 9 round trips.
A bad shuttle is the Franklin Shuttle where the average is 17 round trips.
A HORRIBLE shuttle is the IRT Grand Central Shuttle where you have to clock off 41 round trips. I was a C/R on the GCS three times. After working a stint on that, I knew how a prisoner felt when he carves the time spent encarcerated on the cell wall.
Not sure how many trips it is on the Grand Street Shuttle. I'll letcha know later.
Aw, let's go for some wagering. I say 31 ...
I'll see your call, raise your bluff, and call your bet, and say that it's 29.
Heh. THAT'S the spirit! I see your 29 and raise you two back to 31 ... and don't forget to carry da bum. :)
But you get that big extra OPTO pay too!!!
Big deal. Two bucks-n-hour. They can keep it (unless it's Rock Park).
At least the T/O doesn't have to walk back and forth at each stop. It seems to be running with two T/O's and one or two C/R's. (Wouldn't two T/O's suffice?)
You guys are posting way too many things on this site, esp. because it's just the first weekday of the Manhattan Bridge Construction.
I just posted a couple of things and all of a sudden this site was innundated with web site postings, half of which I have checked and thought of it as nonsense.
Use this website resourcefully, as the way David Pirmann wants it to be used.
~An inspirational thought is the prelude of a new beginning~
Railfan Pete.
Is this the new craze around SubTalk? Posting the whole alphabet in 26 messages?
Please tell me what you're saying.
I don't want to waste a posting if I'm only going to say something like this.
Railfan Pete.
Why can't you just tell us the whole subject insted on a exclamation point for the subject.
Geez I had a hard time clicking on that !
I clicked on a response and then clicked "first in thread". Much easier.
And by posting this you are some CUTTING DOWN on useless posts here? =)
I'm certain (or certainly hope) David Pirmann anticipated higher than usual postings and traffic to the site given the events of the day and has the capacity to handle the extra traffic if need be...
The talk about the demise of the Revenue Collector shall cease for now. The TA has decided to run the collector this pick. So the R21's still have some life in them after all.
The bad news is Keanu Reeves will be the T/O ...
And Woody and Wesley as the bag men..
Let's DO it! :)
We'll start plans tonight under the panic. Is it up town or downtown????
63 St tunnel ... don't forget your crowbar, I'll bring the handles. :)
zman, that figures: I saw the R-21 revenue collection cars with a bright 'n spiffy new paint job over at 38th Street Yard just this past Friday. No wonder they got spruced up!
BMTman
Why couldn't a pair of decent Redbirds be converted for revenue service ? At least the employees would work in an air conditioned car for a change.
Bill "Newkirk"
What to do with all those new armor cars and collection agents?
"Car Service" for Donald Trump. Maybe Herr Mayor can take his honey out on dates in one of them. :)
Is that why is saw 4 armored cars for sale as surplus(at the MTA website)?
I remember when the movie came out, a TA rep actually denied to the newspapers that there even were money trains. While some of us may have known that was mis-information (at the time, I wouldn't have known, though), the Post sent a reporter to surveil the system late at night, and got a pic.
The TA had no comment.
Really? If that's true then that's really funny! Ha ha ha. "...no comment." Hee hee hee
Well, as we all know, the media can make a lot of mistakes, especially when bashing the MTA (actually, I've done that here as well, but only when I felt it was deserved, not for the fun of it), but that WAS the story. MAYBE the first spokesperson the Post contacted wasn't up on the money train, or maybe the Post got its facts wrong by some other means.
But I remember pretty clearly when they announced that, despite the MTA's supposed (the Post's story, again, I ain't claiming they were right)denials, yes, there was a money train!!
The TA wanted to defuse any plot to rob the train since the train is really a sitting duck. Even though the Collecting Agents on board have guns, they're not allowed to use them.
Remember when some misfit teenagers blew up the booth at Kingston-Throop (mimicing the scene in Money Train) and killed poor Harry Kaufman. That movie caused more problems and heartache (such as introducing Jennifer Lopez) than it did "entertaining" people.
>>>Even though the Collecting Agents on board have guns, they're not allowed to use them. <<<
Then why do they have them...seems kinda silly.
>>>Remember when some misfit teenagers blew up the booth at Kingston-Throop (mimicing the scene in Money Train) ...<<<
At the time the kids who torched the booth sais they hadn't even seen the movie. Booths had been torched before that movie ever came out.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Even though the Collecting Agents on board have guns, they're not allowed to use them. <<<
>>>Then why do they have them...seems kinda silly.
For show.
Hmm, I was wondering why I still saw them heading by on the QB express westbound past 63dr at 9PM today.
To many tokens train to heavy..
Hey, what's wrong with that? Hey, better than running a Nassau Street Local 'R' liek the MTA did in 1987...
Anyone know why the TA doesn't connect the 6 Av Shuttle S and the Grand St one?
Asked and answered....more than once. I apologize if I seem curt, but, please *read* the message board before you post to it. In many cases, one's question has already been discussed and/or answered.
The short answer to your question is the lack of crossover switches in the vicinity of Grand St...no place to turn the trains.
Does anyone know what's up with the 2 Nd Avenue Subway?
Why, is there some sort of service interruption?
Seriously. There's nothing up. They're still talking about thinking about maybe possibly studying the environmental effects of contemplating building a subway. Don't hold your breath.
Not quite. They’re still p*****g away tons of money alking about thinking about maybe possibly studying the environmental effects of contemplating building a subway.
However: “Don’t hold your breath.” is still good advice!\
:-)
John
That's so much fun to think about: the environmental impact of a subway needs to be studied when the environmental impact of not building them—lots more auto exhaust pollution and greenhouse gases—is so blatantly apparent and outweighs any damage the subway could possibly do.
Mark
No, they're still thinking about talking about thinking about maybe possibly studying the environmental effects of contemplating building a subway.
-Hank
To David and 'someone':
For much more information about the 2nd Av Subway, and what they are doing and going to do, visit the MTA's website, at www.mta.nyc.ny.us
and click on the menu at left 'Planning Studies'.
It will list what the MTA Construction and T/A are going to do to continue the work needed to better serve passengers. All are quite interesting, and there are 7 topics to click on.
The last one is the Second Avenue Subway, and it looks like all of the engineering and planning is going underway as we speak, and the physical construction will begin at the end of 2004.
David:
Please be more considering to others, and not so selfish when replying to someone who doesn't know what is going on.
I remember when you became all 'bugged-out' when I just asked you two questions.
i don't think that is a very effective way of treating others.
Consider this: If you were the one all confused and blank, and you asked someone for advice, and they were all mean and nasty to you, you wouldn't like them, would you David?
Railfan Pete.
The last one is the Second Avenue Subway, and it looks like all of the engineering and planning is going underway as we speak, and the physical construction will begin at the end of 2004.
Yes, construction will begin in late 2004 ... and I'm going to be next year's Miss America.
It will never be built.
Actually, the 2nd Av. Subway is undergoing a major series of engineering and planning as we speak. MTA Construction workers and their contracts are planning and are scheduling for the start of the construction beginning at the end of 2004.
The subway is not constructed as easy as you think it may be.
Visit the www.mta.nyc.ny.us website and click on 'Planning Studies' and click on 'Second Avenue Subway'. It has all of the engineering and constructing information that you need for your questions to be correctly answered.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
Listen. I consider myself, shall I say, very close to the "2nd Avenue subway process." Let me tell you that money is being spent and real work is being done. A 2nd Avenue subway will be built (in some form), and 2004 does not seem unreasonable as a starting date for construction.
To be fair, though, we as citizens need to keep upthe pressure on the Governor and on MTA to follow through.
That shouldn't be necessary, but it is. So we do it.
Agreed...Washington will never help fund it, while Albany will never make up its mind whether it wants to consider helping.
There's only one thing to do.
We're gonna have to build it ourselves. Grab the shovels.
www.forgotten-ny.com
what happened to the E.I.S. from the first attempt at building this thing? Has things changed that much ,that the TA/MTA needs another? What of the original design,the 2,4 and 2 track layout[4 tracks midtown].Did they just throw it away or something?
(what happened to the E.I.S. from the first attempt at building this thing? Has things changed that much,that the TA/MTA needs another?)
An industry of environmental lawyers has grown up that makes its living filing lawsuits claiming environmental impact statements are inadequate, in an effort to tie things up until they die.
(What of the original design,the 2,4 and 2 track layout[4 tracks midtown].Did they just throw it away or something?)
The Downtown Lobbyists want a plan that includes something like a one-seat ride from the suburbs to Midtown. If not one seat, at least something that does not involve riding with subway passengers. Some politicians want a system that connects to Brooklyn and the Bronx, the two poorest boroughs.
The RPA Metrolink plan did both. It had local trains via either the Rutgers or Montigue Tunnel (connect to Nassau Street) to Brooklyn, and through to the Bronx via the orginal alignment. The express woudl go direct from Grand Central, down Whitehall Street, through a new tunnel to Atlantic Avenue, the out to Jamaica and the LIRR.
I agree that if the suburbs don't get something we won't either (a more likely scenario is the suburbs get some thing and we don't).
"(a more likely scenario is the suburbs get some thing and we don't). "
If the suburbs "get something" then at least you will get those commuters out of your way on the other lines that you already have. Why do you suppose that New Jersey is pushing so hard to put a commuter line into Pennsylvania!?! It is cheaper and better for the environment to put those commuters on a train than to build and maintain a huge interstate highway for them.
Elias
"Here she comes...Miss America..."
If that's what it takes to get a 2nd Ave. subway built, you have my vote.
Dan
If you seriously want to help get it built, I can send you contact information of people who can get you involved in it. I have found it an interesting an rewarding experience, and one that has taught patience and helped build political skills. Let me know if you're interested. You can make a difference, regardless of what Peter Rosa says.
Or you can take his advice, throw rocks on Subtalk and sit on your ass...
At least they could put some more stops in and a third track.
W Broadway Express
Who should I write to to get them going? I would like to be able to ride the Second Ave. subway before I am put in the casket.
Make sure you're buried along 2nd ave...
That will be nice. Sure does beat being buried underneath a prison. heheheehehee.
W Broadway Express
I've sent you an email to your Prodigy.net mailbox with appropriate info.
Finally a constructive attitude...
Thanks! Now to get the wheels in motion. Tell some of the other guys to make noise also, because the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Now that I know who to write to, maybe some things can get accomplished. who knows? Anyway, thanks. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Good for you.
I'm amazed by the number of people who can spend endless hours bitching and moaning, but ask them to lift a pen or the phone, and the answer is "Gee, wish I could but I have to fix dinner..."
If you seriously want to help get it built, I can send you contact information of people who can get you involved in it. I have found it an interesting an rewarding experience, and one that has taught patience and helped build political skills. Let me know if you're interested. You can make a difference, regardless of what Peter Rosa says.
Or you can take his advice, throw rocks on Subtalk and sit on your ass...
You are so naive when it comes to subway expansion. The Second Avenue line has been in the "planning" stage since the 1920's. Through all the intervening decades, nothing's been built save a piddling little bit in the 1970's. Superb opportunities have been squandered. Today we're in an era when NYC is competing with many other cities for scarce transit funding, when NYC's voice in Congress has diminished, when environmental and other restrictions make major infrastructure projects more difficult than ever, when a handful of determined opponents can delay projects indefinitely through lawsuits, and when (I'm going out a bit on a limb here) long-term economic and demographic trends by and large are not running in NYC's favor.
You may think I'm being over cynical, but I simply cannot believe that there'll be a Second Avenue line until, as Dave said, the actual construction begins ... and maybe not even then, as the experience of the 1970's shows.
"You are so naive when it comes to subway expansion. The Second Avenue line has been in the "planning" stage since the 1920's."
Oh, I don't think so. I'm fully aware of how long it's been. I'm also aware that it's attitudes like yours which will help make it even longer. You've chosen to be part of the problem, instead of part of the solution.
The "Chunnel" betwen England and France was started way back in the 19th Century, and had many false starts, along with lots more proposals and wasted paper. But it's here. Nothing is impossible.
You are so naive when it comes to subway expansion. The Second Avenue line has been in the "planning" stage since the 1920's.
Oh, I don't think so. I'm fully aware of how long it's been. I'm also aware that it's attitudes like yours which will help make it even longer. You've chosen to be part of the problem, instead of part of the solution.
The "Chunnel" betwen England and France was started way back in the 19th Century, and had many false starts, along with lots more proposals and wasted paper. But it's here. Nothing is impossible.
You did not quote the more important part of my posting. It's not so much that the Second Avenue line has been proposed for many decades. What's bad is that a variety of factors make it much more difficult for New York to carry out a major infrastructure project today than ever before. Do you think Congress is dangling a huge bag of cash, with a sign on it saying "Reserved for New York"? Do you think Congress actually cares about New York, or considers it as anything except a big fat cash cow?
It took 35 years to build 21.5 miles of highway in the Philadelphia area to connect i-95 with the Pennsy Turnpike. Anything is still possible.
I know there are new issues of safety and wages today, but if anybody here ever watches the show "Earth Movers" on Discovery, they also have some serious technology and equipment out there today that hey didn't have in 1900. Has anyone seen the tunnel digger that's boring out the tunnel for the Central Artery in Boston??? Get one of those down to Manhattan and you'll have a 2nd ave subway by Christmas!!! LOL.
"It took 35 years to build 21.5 miles of highway in the Philadelphia area to connect i-95 with the Pennsy Turnpike. Anything is still possible."
Chicago first formally planned for a subway out to Midway Airport in 1939, when it was still Chicago Municipal Airport and the biggest passenger airliner was the DC3. The Orange Line to Midway finally opened in 1993, 54 years later and deep into the jumbo jet age. Mind you, the original plan was for a subway under Archer Avenue, while what was built was an elevated that uses old railroad right-of-way as much as possible and avoids a couple of neighborhoods for the sake of cheap ROW. But it WAS built, and a Chicagoan in 1960 or 1970 or even 1980 would have been as cynical about the prospect of it being built as many are about the Second Avenue subway.
OK. So what are you going to do about it?
You are one of the most prolific posters on this board (and that's not a bad thing - you write well, and we read what you write). That also means, by definition, that you have time you could direct to transit-friendly political activism, should you so choose.
It's up to you.
"Do you think Congress is dangling a huge bag of cash, with a sign on it saying "Reserved for New York"? Do you think Congress actually cares about New York, or considers it as anything except a big fat cash cow? "I don't recall any Federal Money being spent on the IRT or the BMT or even (?) the IND when these were first built. When did we (all Americans) become a suckling calf to Washington?
I do not think that the Federal Govenment should be involved in any such projects. Of course they shouldn't collect the tax money either.
Taxes and Projects ought to be managed at the most local level feasable. This might mean a multi-state Transportation colation of some sort, both raising the funding, and managing the development.
Or you can come out here to North Dakota and ride on a new (albeit mostly empty) interstate at 70 MPH (not enforced until 80 MPH) for 400 miles without ever running into any traffic congestion. Your FEDERAL tax dollars at work for you!
Elias
while I have no exact figures, I believe Federal (WPA) money WAS used in IND construction. Fed money was certainly used building the State St. (Red Line) tunnel in Chicago. As to locality, on an abstract basis how local do you wish to go? Your county, town , street? The point of any polity (nation-state) is to provide for the common good. This is why we have 'national' taxes to provide for 'national' benefits. I do not love every Fed expenditure of OUR tax monies, but in this representative democracy, the allocation is supposed to be decided by 'legitimate' means. In fact , of course, the bribing class runs the show and the taxes extorted from the producing classes are are mainly wasted on useless crap(extra aircraft carriers, unused highways, $72 allen wrenches, a totally fraudulent 'drug war' ad nauseam.
The bottom line however, is that even the current crop of 'Railroad Magnates' are standing in line for capital to build trackage, improve signaling, AND welch on retirement funging.
Assuming the technology is there -- and I think it is, now, although it wasn't ten years ago -- what's wrong with having each individual pay for the precise transportation resources he uses? Nobody in North Dakota would have to pay for the NYC subway, but by the same means nobody in NYC would have to pay for the North Dakota highways. Once people start covering their own costs, efficient solutions will start to prevail.
>>Once people start covering
their own costs, efficient solutions will start to prevail. <<
Fisrt off we have a fundamental philosophical divide here. I am unconcerned about each citizen paying exactly his/her net share of everything. I believe we are here (on this planet) as a community.
As such I am not outraged by wasting my tax money on highways I am legally prevented from using (can't pass the eye test for a license).
I would prefer to spend that money more intelligently(you might in a gross sense call me a tree hugger although that would be over-generalizing). All this said, I advocate 'rational', and 'people-centric designs. of social engineering. (And if you pretend that so called free-market capitalism is NOT social engineering you might consider how advertisig drives attitudes and cultural norms. Ultimately I prefer one person one vote to one share one vote, AND as a corrollary, I support PUBLIC services as a benefit of having emerged from the caves. As such public transit IMHO is little more than paving streets. Fare gates on transit are to me like turnstiles on sidewalks. I therefore always oppose fare increases because I want the 'fare' abolished. Laboring in the real world I am aware I will ride the 2nd Ave line before I see most of my goals for a just society achieved but you 'asked' the question. It should be mathematically obvious by now that NO US subway system ever has or will recover the full capital costs of construction, and operation from the fare box. If you accept that 'fact' (I can prove this) then the only real question is how to allocate the costs. I favor a 'progressive' income tax over sales tax because sales tax by design hurts lower income groups more. In turn I favor a more 'honest' allocation of tax proceeds on a population basis (which would return vast Federal monies to NY, Ca, etc at the expense of the lightly populated states which typically scream about Federal taxes but also receive disproportionately larger Fed grants/contracts.) BTW the most interesting data came out from DC recently. 60% of all riders on the Metro are less than one mile rides in the core. What this means is that dollarwise they needn't have built most of the system on a purely economic basis.--BUT of course the suburbs run the show and wihout routes out there it would never have been built, besides, EVERYONE benefits from the existence of the system.
Thank you for your detailed response. Needless to say, we disagree at a fundamental level, but I respect your views.
My basic problem with publicly funded transportation systems is that they encourage inefficient use. Much of what's involved in moving around comes with a cost. Some of those costs -- for, say, gasoline, asphalt, tracks, signals -- are explicit. Others are not, like the noise from a highway or an elevated rail line, or air pollution, or eminent domain (which is nothing but a legally sanctioned way for the government to force a sale at a price the seller would not agree to). By not expecting each individual to cover his own costs, we artificially increase the price to the user of some forms of transportation while artificially decreasing the price of others. With this arrangement, an individual who strives to minimize his own costs does not necessarily end up minimizing the total costs to society. This problem can be seen every rush hour, as thousands of automobiles line up at the bridges and tunnels, even though there are far more efficient ways to get across the rivers at peak times.
If all costs are passed on to those who incur them, I expect that many public transportation systems -- the NYC subway, certainly, although service cuts may be necessary in places -- will thrive in the competitive environment. Many will die out. Some cities will have to make major changes or their residents will leave.
Now, as it stands, this leaves the poor in a bit of a mess -- but there's no need to leave it as it stands. I have no objection to blatant redistribution of wealth -- I think it's a necessary element of civilized society. Why should the poor be subsidized only when engaged in transportation? Just give them the money and let them spend it wisely. (I realize this is a bit daring. Let me know what you think. I haven't thought it out fully myself.)
Despite what I said (to stir the pot as it were) I do believe that all kinds of infrastructure are part of the commonwealth of all of our peoples. An improvement in a road here allows the transport of goods (you *like* to eat, don't you) to market. Likewise, an improvemnet in the subways of New York are infact an improvement here in North Dakota what with the improvement in air quility, fuel consumption, and oh yes, did I tell you that North Dakota is also a net exporter of electricity.
When people in New York live better, the whole nation, the whole economy gains, and the dignity of all is improved. (we can also sell more of our cows to McDonalds).
While I think there is too much boondoggle in Washington, it is a fact that only wise taxation and expenditure can develop such a vast infrastructure as the United States. Still it rankles me to think that we, the Subway or our water projects here in North Dakota are controled by plutocrats in Washington.
I should like to point to Highway 8 in Conneticut. CT wanted the highwya built on rte 8 and Mass wanted built on rte 7. It was a stand off, but CT thumbed their nose at the fed and built the highway without them.
Way to go.
Elias
Despite what I said (to stir the pot as it were) I do believe that all kinds of infrastructure are part of the commonwealth of all of our peoples. An improvement in a road here allows the transport of goods (you *like* to eat, don't you) to market.
But shouldn't that road improvement be funded directly and indirectly by the people who use the road directly and indirectly (respectively)? If I drive on the road, I pay to use it. If I buy a quart of milk that was transported on the road, the shipping company passes those costs on to the store, which then passes those costs on to me. If a different shipping company finds it more efficient to ship, say, by rail, the store, in an effort to cut costs, will switch to the cheaper shipping company and will ultimately charge its customers less. But none of that will happen if the first trucking company doesn't pay for its road use explicitly -- in that case, switching to rail would only increase costs to the consumer, even if rail happens to be more efficient in the global sense.
While I think there is too much boondoggle in Washington, it is a fact that only wise taxation and expenditure can develop such a vast infrastructure as the United States.
Why can't infrastructure be developed by private parties? Look at the original IRT subway, which was forced out of business by the inability to raise the fare and by competition from the city (the IND).
"Why can't infrastructure be developed by private parties?
1) Lawyers
2) Tree-Huggers
3) NIMBYs
4) Politicians
5) Venture Capital (Needs better returns than some needed infrastructure can give)
: ) Elias
>>> But shouldn't that road improvement be funded directly and indirectly by the people who use the road directly and indirectly (respectively)? <<<
If that is followed to its logical extreme, then sensors would be imbedded into all highways so appropriate tolls could be charged for the use of them. A crowded highway in the sun belt would have an extremely cheap toll applied because of the large number of vehicles and the good weather leading to very low maintenance per user vehicle mile. On the other hand, that North Dakota highway which may be a link between Chicago and Seattle ( I haven't bothered to look at a map) would have to charge a humongous toll because of far fewer users and much higher maintenance costs per user vehicle mile due to snow removal, and damage from extreme weather.
This would lead to widely different transportation charges for anything moving through different parts of the country. I do not know if you remember when automobile prices were quoted F.O.B. Detroit and different charges were tacked on depending how far a vehicle was shipped. Now a standard transportation charge (with possible exception of Alaska and Hawaii) is tacked on to average the transportation charges of all vehicles. Now there is national pricing and it does not matter to the purchaser where a vehicle is assembled. This standard pricing has a unifying effect on the nation. To go to a system in which each part of the infrastructure has to pay for itself would be a giant step backward.
Tom
A very astute post. I totally agree.
A lot of systems work (more or less) this way. AT&T charges the same long-distance rates regardless of where the phone call goes or how its routed (eg computers route calls through available lightwave or microwave routes, which can change countless times, but your phone bill does not change).
The US Postal Service delivers a first-class letter anywhere for the same price. That means that we city people are, in effect, subsidizing mail delivery to the guy in Montana whose nearest neighbor is 10 miles away. Intra-city mail subsidizes inter-city mail, because in the latter case the Postal Service has to buy the mailbag a ticket on an airliner. And then there are the mules which must be fed and groomed so they can take a mailbag down into the Grand Canyon...
But that's OK- I pay 34 cents to send a first class letter because the mail is a lifeline for people, and it helps unify the country too. Do we want to begrudge rural folks mail service to save a few pennies on our own stamps? I think not.
If that is followed to its logical extreme, then sensors would be imbedded into all highways so appropriate tolls could be charged for the use of them.
Absolutely. Local streets, too. Including on-street parking.
A crowded highway in the sun belt would have an extremely cheap toll applied because of the large number of vehicles and the good weather leading to very low maintenance per user vehicle mile. On the other hand, that North Dakota highway which may be a link between Chicago and Seattle ( I haven't bothered to look at a map) would have to charge a humongous toll because of far fewer users and much higher maintenance costs per user vehicle mile due to snow removal, and damage from extreme weather.
That's not clear to me. Highways in metropolitan areas are expensive to build and to maintain. Land acquisition is expensive. Air and noise pollution directly affect more people, and they'd all have to be reimbursed according to my proposal.
But your point is that highway X may be more expensive to drive than highway Y. That's correct. If highway X is more expensive to build and maintain, then shouldn't it be more expensive to drive? I'd like to see people make globally intelligent choices in how they use transportation resources, but that will never happen if the globally intelligent choices (the ones that cost the least to society) don't coincide with the individually intelligent choices (the ones that cost the least to the individual).
This would lead to widely different transportation charges for anything moving through different parts of the country.
That's already the case. Many goods cost more in the NYC region than elsewhere because shipping is expensive here.
And I see nothing wrong with it. If shipping is cheaper over there than over here, that's an incentive for me to move over there, where transportation is more efficient. That's good.
I do not know if you remember when automobile prices were quoted F.O.B. Detroit and different charges were tacked on depending how far a vehicle was shipped. Now a standard transportation charge (with possible exception of Alaska and Hawaii) is tacked on to average the transportation charges of all vehicles. Now there is national pricing and it does not matter to the purchaser where a vehicle is assembled. This standard pricing has a unifying effect on the nation. To go to a system in which each part of the infrastructure has to pay for itself would be a giant step backward.
Are you serious? I propose a technique to promote transportation efficiency and to personally reward those who make efficient choices. Your rebuttal is that this would eliminate uniform shipping costs for automobiles. Now, most people I know buy automobiles between zero and six times in their lives. They live with the effects of inefficient use of transportation resources every day. I can't even imagine what's wrong with shipping prices that varies by location. Do you have a problem with stores that charge different prices for different items? Maybe the price for each item in the store should be fixed at $15. This standard pricing would also have a unifying effect on the nation.
IF everything could be "honestly" priced and "afforded" maybe. In the US )as in most of the world in fact) the prices of foodstuffs are artificially low as a function of 'standard of living'. If the price of bread in this country actually covered the cost of farming etc, the price per loaf might be 10 to 15 a loaf. If gasoline prices included smog induced disease costs, and US military in Arabia, m,aybe 7 a gallon. The point is most costs are shifted, hidden, dumped on someone else. So IMHO it is very difficult to simplisticly opt for making users pay their 'fair share'. I also believe that society is much better when 'price' alone is not the determinant. I am more interested in 'quality' than profit.
Transit content. Strict 'cost accounting' coupled to 'fully attributed costs' might be the death nell of public transit. I would find that intensely stupid as well as ultimately counterproductive as we all choke in smog (or in my case forced to walk everywhere I go_.
IF everything could be "honestly" priced and "afforded" maybe. In the US )as in most of the world in fact) the prices of foodstuffs are artificially low as a function of 'standard of living'. If the price of bread in this country actually covered the cost of farming etc, the price per loaf might be 10 to 15 a loaf. If gasoline prices included smog induced disease costs, and US military in Arabia, m,aybe 7 a gallon. The point is most costs are shifted, hidden, dumped on someone else. So IMHO it is very difficult to simplisticly opt for making users pay their 'fair share'. I also believe that society is much better when 'price' alone is not the determinant. I am more interested in 'quality' than profit.
But that's the point? Why should I subsidize your loaf of bread while you subsidize mine? (And if you don't eat bread, why should you be paying for part of my loaf?) Is there some advantage to having low numbers on the price tags in stores while making up the difference in taxes? Why not charge the appropriate price while lowering taxes? The person who is absolutely average in all ways won't see his costs change at all -- until the greater efficiency promoted in this model pushes the average toward lower costs.
Price alone is not the determinant. You're welcome to spend your money wherever you like. Whatever you choose to spend your money on, though, I think it makes sense for you to spend your money and not everyone else's.
Transit content. Strict 'cost accounting' coupled to 'fully attributed costs' might be the death nell of public transit. I would find that intensely stupid as well as ultimately counterproductive as we all choke in smog (or in my case forced to walk everywhere I go_.
Not at all! Air pollution is one of those costs just about never paid for by its generator. It's one of those hidden costs. You're welcome to pollute all you want, but you have to pay those affected. (Who's affected? All of us and our children, for starters. The people in closest proximity to the source of pollution are affected to a greater extent than those halfway across the country. I haven't worked out an exact pricing scheme, but it would take this into account.) The price of driving would go way up to account for this and similar hidden costs. The price of riding the subway would also go up, but in a city like NYC where subways make sense, it would come out way ahead. My prediction is that cities that aren't compatible with transit would have to restructure themselves or will lose much of their population due to the comparatively high cost of living, which is now spread over all of us.
How many federall $$$ went into building the IRT the BMT and the IND?
[The "Chunnel" betwen England and France was started way back in the 19th Century, and had many false starts, along with lots more proposals and wasted paper. But it's here. Nothing is impossible. ]
IMO the Chunnel, despite the desire, was technologically and financially undoable until recently.
Arti
You may be right - of course the previous construction teams didn't know that....
Let me know if you're interested. You can make a difference, regardless of what Peter Rosa says.
Or you can take his advice, throw rocks on Subtalk and sit on your ass...
Let's use an analogy, shall we? Assume that you've got a troubled relative living with you. Say a "black sheep of the family" cousin, who's staying with you while he tries yet again to get his life in order.
You find out one day that your cousin has taken your car without your permission and wrecked it. Next day, he "borrows" one of your credit cards and runs it up to the limit buying useless junk. You tell him he's got to hit the road, but he begs your forgiveness and says that he'll never do anything like that again. Would you believe him?
Well, if you'll believe the MTA's promises, after decades of empty talk, you'll believe your cousin too.
Wrong analogy. In the first place, you can get rid of your cousin if you want to badly enough.
Second, your cousin isn't receiving money (and, more importantly, conflicting demands) from 20 million other people,five boroughs, a dozen counties and whichever Governor happens to be in Albany today.
Your cousin and the MTA would have something in common in that he would be second-guessed by people who believe in their hearts that they could do a better job. In the case of your cousin, that might be true. In the case of MTA, probably not true.
Giddyup!!
I think Peter Rosa would make a
very pert-ty (read: pretty) Miss America!!
Optimism.
Giddyup!!
I think Peter Rosa would make a
very pert-ty (read: pretty) Miss America!!
Optimism
I'm sure I could fit into a plus-size evening gown and think of something to do for the talent part. But the swimsuit competition? Forget it!
Speedos, my good fellow... just look what it
got the guy in the STACKER II commercial!!
Nothing is UP with the 2nd ave subway, it will run underground.
Instead of just guessing, you are allowed to visit the www.mta.nyc.ny.us website and find out the facts.
Click on the 'Planning Studies' button and click on 'Second Avenue Subway' from the 7 topics that are listed, and voila, learn from it. I did.
Railfan Pete.
I know what you're trying to say but I'm not following your logic. Just because you see it on the MTA's planning website doesn't mean it will be built. It didn't get built the last 75 years, and the public has already paid for it via bond issues. What's even more ridiculous is that they have to pay for the impact studies all over again, throwing out not only the 1970s' small amounts of construction but even the original planning! The fact that it's being seriously considered again now doesn't mean a single thing to me until the trains start running... or at least, they start digging.
I know what you're trying to say but I'm not following your logic. Just because you see it on the MTA's planning website doesn't mean it will be built. It didn't get built the last 75 years, and the public has already paid for it via bond issues. What's even more ridiculous is that they have to pay for the impact studies all over again, throwing out not only the 1970s' small amounts of construction but even the original planning! The fact that it's being seriously considered again now doesn't mean a single thing to me until the trains start running... or at least, they start digging.
If it's any consolation, this Nutty-Professor, Gang-That-Couldn't-Shoot-Straight incompetence is not inherent to New York. Nobody's putting stupid pills in the Catskill and Croton reservoir systems. It is, quite clearly, the MTA's fault. New Jersey Transit has done a good job in getting HBLR, the Newark Subway extension, and the Secaucas Transfer built in a reasonably prompt manner. Right in the city, the Port Authority's Airtrain project is shooting up like corn in an Iowa summer. But the MTA? Sheer incompetence.
Have you considered one additional fator Peter?
MTA, by itself, is the world's largest railroad/transit network. It is larger by than NJ Transit, SEPTA, PATCO and the PA's transit operations by orders of magnitude. This also means its maintenance and Capital requiements are higher. I'm not taking anything away from NJ Transit, but it's easier to build new track if you don't already have to maintain an empire of old track. It's also easier to do that if you didn't just spend $35 billion on rebuilding your network. Which, by the way, MTA has done a pretty credible job, overall, on.
Now, that doesn't mean there aren't problems - like a bloated bureaucracy, for example.
It's also very easy to call someone else incompetent when you sit in an armchair and post on Subtalk. You've used that word ,or words like it, so often, one has to wonder what that says about you.
Yeah, going around saying "it's not gonna happen" is very immature and makes you (not you, RonInBayside, I'm refering to people who posted above you) look dumb. Either you say "it is going to happen" and then you provide evidence for that, or you say "it's not going to happen" and you provide evidence for that. I say it's going to happen because the studies are being done in a very serious manner and at a steady pace. Also the MTA seems to be getting a lot of things done lately and done right. I don't claim to have the final answer, but this is my opinion and why I believe it to be true.
And how do you account for the past 70+ years?
They didn't have competent engineering firms working on the EIS. And besides, they weren't really serious during the past 70 years. They were just relating grand visions of what could be and what they would like to do. But now they ARE DOING IT, just like the MTA website says.
And when do you guys gather that FEIS and EIS are 2 different animals.
Arti
Whichever one is the correct one in this situation is the one I meant. Obviously.
(And when do you guys gather that FEIS and EIS are 2 different animals.)
The FEIS is the DEIS plus language adjusting to a couple of political deals cut after DEIS publication.
"FEIS is the DEIS plus language adjusting to a couple of political deals cut after DEIS publication."
What you're realling trying to say, Larry, but you can't since you've got both feet in your mouth, is that in a democracy, citizens get to point out flaws in a DEIS and the FEIS reflects governments response to that, albeit imperfect sometimes. But it's the best we can do.
(What you're realling trying to say, Larry, but you can't since you've got both feet in your mouth, is that in a democracy, citizens get to point out flaws in a DEIS and the FEIS reflects governments response to that, albeit imperfect sometimes. But it's the best we can do.)
That's not what I'm trying to say at all. My experience is that "decisions" made in the political process tend to be good, but "non-decisions" and deals tend to be bad. At some point, you'll have a proposal that is attractive to "citzens" who comprise a majority or a substantial minority in a "democracy." But after that point, those narrower -- but richer or better positioned -- interests will start demanding tribute in exchange for not using the veto power they somehow have obtained, and allowing a public minded proposal to go foward.
Have you ever been personally involved in the drafting of regulations in NYC, and seen what has actually happened? Not what is said in the DEIS or FEIS, but what actually occurs. I have. There is nothing more naseuating than having to draft a "rationale" for rules whose actual purpose is to benefit one or a small number of people.
What distinguishes New York is that the non-public minded part of the proposal often accounts for less than 50 percent of the total effects, rather than 10 percent off the top to grease the wheels.
And that doesn't happen in Chicago, Philly, Miami, Detroit...yeah, right.
I don't like it either. But I deal with the hand I get. And we could be a lot worse off (Rio, Bogota, ...)
(And we could be a lot worse off (Rio, Bogota, ...)
That's true. On the other hand, perhaps the "optimistic" point of view is that we SHOULD be a lot better off.
And we COULD be, if we decide to work on it.
(And we COULD be, if we decide to work on it.)
Hey, I've done what work I can do, both on the job and on my own. Not much in the results department yet.
Hopefully by the end of the week, NYU will post my compilation of Census of Governments data. Among the things it demonstrates is that transportation is something we have NOT spent on, relative to other areas, net of dedicated funds. And that while our debts and taxes are up at the top, our capital expenditures are average at best, even in good years.
That compilation was a lot of work. I'll annouce it here when they finally get it up.
Thanks, Larry. You can only do what you can.
And don't be so sure you haven't achieved anything.
> They didn't have competent engineering firms working on the EIS.
Interesting statement, and I'm not going to argue with it. But since since you seem to know (if you can make that statement), which were the engineering firms who worked on the 1970s EIS and planning?
Come on, you know I was just joking. (It could be true, the engineering firms really could have been incompetent, but I don't know). I just said that from the standpoint of an engineer in the early 21st century who hopes the engineers of today will get the 2nd Ave Subway project further along than the ones in the 70's did. (and I don't mean that kind of engineer). Ahem, yeah, so...does this place need an "off-topic forum" or what? Just kidding! Don't change anything about SubTalk! I love it! It runs sooooooooooooo fast now! I'm getting a little off-topic now, but let me just say that before the recent server upgrade, I didn't frequent SubTalk at all because I just couldn't get it to load within a reasonable amount of time. But now (on my 56K dial-up connection) it isn't even the smallest issue! Thank you! You allowed people like me to participate in discussing the things they love! (gee...is that last statement a great opening for an insult barrage or what? :)
Actually I wasn't sure whether you were kidding or not. I mean, you could have had some beef with former TA engineering consultants, how do I know? :-)
-Dave
When you talk about speed, I know how spoiled I am, I have never used anything other than my office T1 line. I know I would be real disappointed with a dial up. When I do break down and get a computer for home, I'm going to have to spend some $$$ for a fast connection.
"They didn't have competent engineering firms working on the EIS. And besides, they weren't really serious during the past 70 years."
Whoa. Hold on a second here. Even if your unsubstantiated claim of incompetence on the part of the consultants is true, how does that make them liable for failing to complete construction?
If the design had progressed past the EISs and gone to bid, the engineers would still have only a third party obligation to the contractor via the client, in this case, The City of New York. This, of course, assumes that the firm doing the EISs is not a design-build firm, which is a whole separate issue of discussion. There are many consulting firms out there that can do an EIS, all of whom can be fired off a job for purported incompetence. The City is ultimately responsible for producing a finished project.
Before we start pointing fingers at the engineering firms, I want to see some evidence of incompetence.
MATT-2AV
First, there was the invincibility of Robert Moses, and his war against the trains. When he finally lost power, the safeguards put up to prevent his types of abuses put a stranglehold on an agency's ability to build just about anything.
Then again, one can argue that the MTA's people are paid to work through these things.
Don't know if we can blame the 70s problems on Moses. He would have been nearly 80 years old in the mid 70s. Was he still an influence? Or was it just fiscal irresponsibility of the city as a whole?
It's also very easy to call someone else incompetent when you sit in an armchair and post on Subtalk. You've used that word ,or words like it, so often, one has to wonder what that says about you.
It says that I am &%$#@ sick and tired of the fact that what is in many ways the world's finest mass transit system has seen only a minimal amount of expansion (and has had elevated lines shut down) since before most of us were born. That is a disgrace.
when you sit in an armchair and post on Subtalk
WHO HAS AN ARMCHAIR AT THEIR COMPUTER?!?!?!? I HATE YOU!!!!
Sorry. My computer chair's padding is approximately the same thickness as a facial tissue. It gets on my nerves sometimes.
Dan
Like DUDE! You should have totally jumped on the hot deal they had at OfficeDepot.com last week! They had a fabric executive chair (with armrests and lumbar support, of course) that after a coupon was applied, came to $35 with free shpping if you live within a few miles of an Office Depot. I ordered one, but had to pay for shipping since I don't live near an Office Depot.
They had a fabric executive chair (with armrests and lumbar support, of course) that after a coupon was applied, came to $35 with free shpping if you live within a few miles of an Office Depot.
I don't suppose this is still valid...?
Dan
Not worth it, I bought a $25 task chair at Staples several years ago and it's hard, the back part keeps flipping over to the back and it's low. If you're a crafty person at all and like a small project, go to your nearest unpainted furniture store and pick up a windsor back swivel desk chair then stain it to match your desk. The one I bought ran about $162, but the sales man gave it to me for $135. I love to get things like that or find an old piece of furniture at a thrift shop, strip it and refinish it to match something in my home. There's just something about taking something like that and making it your own.
A point well taken. It is often forgotten when one looks at all the changes in NJ recently that, circa 1980 New Jersey's transit network was woefully insufficient to meet the needs of that time, let alone now.
CG
David:
You're absolutely right. While the environmental impacts of contruction would be temporary, some NIMBYs will scream about athsma from the dust, etc, and it's very unlikely to ever happen.
I didn't believe they'd build the Queens Blvd./63rd St. connection, and I'm still shocked that it's actually almost complete. But note- building the original IRT line took less time than that connection of only a few blocks.
I didn't believe they'd build the Queens Blvd./63rd St. connection, and I'm still shocked that it's actually almost complete.The MTA was backed into a corner. The Feds threatened to demand back the monies spent on the 63rd St tunnel, if the line were not extended past 21st St.
And the U.S. Senate last week appropriated $0 in transportation funds for the Second Ave. subway for the 2002 fiscal year. That means any studies the MTA wants to conduct as of Oct. 1 will be done on city and state money. Odds are, since they would be using their own $$ in this case, the MTA will decide they can best spend it someplace else besides another Second Ave. envionmental impact study.
Building the first segments of subway using city and state money only is actually a good idea. When MTA applies again for federal dollars, it would be for completion of an ongoing project, not to merely support a paper plan. That might stand a better chance in Congress...
That was the reasoning the last time around, too. The section from E. 2nd Street to E. 9th Street was to be built without Federal assistance. And we all know how THAT went... :-)
David
It probably would help the thing along if the city and state showed people down in D.C. they were willing to make a major financial committment on their own for the project, but very few people on major projects -- whether they're government agencies or private concerns -- seem willing to put their money where their mouth is nowadays if they can finagle a way to use other people's $$.
The new stadium situation today is a perfect example -- You can tell Steinbrenner or Fred Wilpon from now until eternity about how the S.F. Giants financed PacBell Park on their own, while letting the government only worry about the surrounding infrastructure. Doesn't matter -- George and Fred want the city and state to pay for their new parks here, even though both teams are financially way better off than the Giants were when they were at Candlestick Park. They could build their own stadiums, but they won't because there's a good chance someone else will built it for them.
The MTA is the same way -- they're not going to do anything about re-starting the Second Ave. subway project with their money -- that is the money they know they'll get through state and local taxes, fare collections and/or bond revenues. They'll only do it if someone else foots the bill.
The MTA is the same way -- they're not going to do anything about re-starting the Second Ave. subway project with their money -- that is the money they know they'll get through state and local taxes, fare collections and/or bond revenues. They'll only do it if someone else foots the bill.
Except there's no "someone else" to cough up the $$. Can you say "Catch 22?"
Well, they want Uncle Sugar down on North Capitol Street to do it, but the city and state have absolutely zero bargaining power this congressional term. They'll have a little more in 2002 if House Republicans want to help Pataki's re-election bid and toss the area some extra mass transit cash, but then it could be Hillary and Schumer's turn to sit on their hands in the Senate, in order to help Cuomo or McCall in the guberanotial race.
To David Pirmann:
You can't predict something that you cannot prove. Take a look at the 63rd St. Tunnel Connector. Did it get built since they failed to complete it? NO! Now they are physically completed and all they have to do is 'rewire' the signals of the 53rd St and 60th St. Tunnels for full-time service through the 63rd St. Tunnel.
How do you know that a lot of money will be spent for impact studies?
Do you have facts or sources that I can refer to?
Just like I said to another person on this site, you can't be so narrow minded and think that it'll never get built 'because we've been waiting forever'. Construction will begin at the end of 2004, and I know the MTA website WILL NOT post something to the mere public lies about what they are doing.
JUST be PATIENT. If you have recently been into any of the stations of the NYC Subway, did you ever take time to notice how they have built the walls, the I-beams, platforms, how they have structured multiple-levels, mounted the tracks and the third rail?
It's a lot than just setting a structure and pouring in loads of cement. It's not as easy as you think.
Major construction projects take years even to plan. If you're an architect (I'm sure you're not), and just a regular city member of NYC, you may have to sit back and think about how hard the engineers and the technological crew are working on how they are going to build from a preserved section of the 2nd Av. Subway.
Do you know how long the Secaucus Transfer station in NJ was in planning? Do you know about the Newark Airport rail station, and how that never came to physical building until a year ago?
I'm saying that!:
1) Narrow-minded people never get their way and just quote "I don't care, it'll never get built. I'll just be happy with the current subway." They're not optimistic about future plans and study.
2) Engineering crew and construction workers sweat and study their brains out more than you think. Regular or normal people, do not take insight on what is 'Behind the Scenes' on building a structure. They're just happy that someone has built it and they're happy because its convenient for them.
3) Do you think the MTA website would post something that they will soon regret or post lies?
4) If you take time to read this, David, you might want to change your mind about what you are thinking about the 'Planning Studies' of the NYC Subway. And it's not just the NYC Subway, the crew is planning and researching brilliant plans for the LIRR, and the MTA Metro-North. They have seven different planning research and studies for the NYC Subway itself!
Good luck to you!
Railfan Pete.
JUST be PATIENT.
If you were born on the day that the Second Avenue line was first proposed, today you might very well be a "patient" in a nursing home!
Perhaps you don't realize this, but the original plans for the 63rd Street line were not to simply hook into the existing Queens Boulevard line. That was done after the fact, when it was clear the original plans were never going to come to fruition, to save the tunnel from being a total waste.
Fruition? Then what were the original plans?
I am patient. I am just addressing someone who I think is contrary to being considerable and optimistic.
Railfan Pete.
From 1971:
See that "SUPER EXPRESS LINE" in Queens?
Also see the Second Avenue Subway timeline on this site.
YEP! The Second Avenue Line would have taken over the Roe that was once used by the B/W railroad years ago; totally replacing the Dyre Avenue Line. Plus a stop at 126th (Triborough) and 2nd Avenue.
To me that is a better idea than taking over the #6 line after 125th Street. But I would have prefered a new elevated route spring up on 3rd Avenue though.
W Bwy Express
Since it's been a few months, I'll mention what I think would make the most sense: a four-track line on 2nd Avenue, with the express tracks taking over one of the existing Bronx lines and the local tracks running across 125th Street to the Hudson, with transfers to the north-south lines. (Whoops, I've been corrected in another thread. Everything's a north-south line, even one running across 125th Street.)
Why must the 2nd Avenue Line take over one of the IRT lines? And what about creating an new elevated 2nd Avenue Line.
W Broadway Express
Why must the 2nd Avenue Line take over one of the IRT lines?
Where else would it make sense to go? Queens, I suppose, is another option, but the 63rd Street branch will presumably be going to Queens already.
And what about creating an new elevated 2nd Avenue Line.
Somehow I don't think the neighborhood would go for that.
I should have said creating a new 3rd Avenue line in the bronx. And using the old B/W railroad route which connects to Dyre Avenue in the Bronx.
N/W Broadway Lines
Thank you for mentioning about all lines are North/South. What is up with that, is the 42st shuttle a north/south line also??????, How about the #7. If anyone could enlighten me I would appreciate it.
Ask Train Dude. He got all bent out of shape when someone used the words 'east' and 'west' when discussing the subway. I'm content to use the terms most of us are used to but I don't want to offend anyone in the process.
You know, in a way your post summaries alot of what is wrong with the MTA. 99.99% of the population understands 4 main compass points/directions. If normal average people are discussing a train traveling accross 125 street, that would be referred to as EAST TO WEST (or visa versa). Trying to force or impose non existant facts on to that conversation "I'm going to get a 125th street cross town train going north (or south) to Lexington Ave" makes ZERO sense. Why is it hard to live with realistic terminology and instead try to reduce even the most basic things (elimate east and west and function with only north and south) to the least common denominator.
Let's really simplify it and call it Left/Right and UP/down!!!!
lol!!!
I wouldn't take things quite that far. To simplify matters, the TA, internally, considers everything north or south, since most of the lines do more closely approximate north-south than east-west. That doesn't mean the TA has anything against east-west travel, only that it's going to (internally) call it north-south anyway. Don't like that? Okay, then, DIRECTION A and DIRECTION B -- is that any better?
Along the same lines the BQE is designated as an east-west route contrary to what the map tells me. More like NE/SW.
The BQE's east-west designation is idiotic. There's no reason for it. Then again, it's not like the overall I-278 designation makes much sense either -- it's a bunch of separate highways strung together.
The I-278 designation is going by federal Interstate Highway guidelines -- Routes ending with even numbers other than loops are supposed to be east-west highways, while routes ending in odd numbers are supposed to be north-south.
Of course, going by this still doesn't explain the LIE, which is east-west, is definitely not a loop route, but is designated I-495. Perhaps they should switch numbers on the LIE and BQE to make things more logical.
There's another part of this that defies the I-495 logic on LIE;
On the 3 digit route designations if the first digit is an even number. it either connects with another route or back into it's origin at another point. If it begins with an odd number it is just a spur...Example..in Philly I-476 (the blue route) connects with I-95 in Delaware county with I-76 and 276 (PA Turnpike) and then goes on at the Northeast Extension until it ends and merges into 81 somewhere near Scranton. In Western NY, I-190 feeds off the Thruway and goes through BUffalo and up to the Canadian border at the Rainbow Bridge and becomes the QEW in Ontario.
I-495 for the LIE is comprehendable if you can imagine the 34 St expressway in Manhattan and a bridge from Orient Point to Westerly, RI (or any of the other LI Sound bridge plans), it's a loop.
I-295 for the Clearview boggles the mind, since 95 has never had the ambition to venture into Southeast Queens...
Years ago the I-495 thing came up as there WAS some major talking going on about building such a bridge.
There are many quirks in the Interstate Highway numbering system.
Try and figure out how I-238 wound up in Castro Valley, California. It connects I-580 and what used to be CA SR17 (now I-880). It's less than five miles long.
The original plan for the Clearview was to have it continue through Queens to the Belt, hook up with the stub that is now called the Nassau Expwy, then cross Brooklyn along Bushwick, over the Williamburg, through Manhattan and through the Holland, thus hooking up with 95 in NJ.
As for I-238, it took over the ROW of Cal. 238, and the authorities were too laxy to change the number for such a short connecter.
The Clearview et. al. was all to be I-78, which now ends at the Holland Tunnel. I don't know where the I-295 number came from.
I-238 should just be CA 238. There's nothing wrong with a state highway that happens to meet Interstate standards.
>>> I-238 should just be CA 238. There's nothing wrong with a state highway that happens to meet Interstate standards. <<<
That is true, but when travelers not familiar with the area look at a map which has Interstate Highways in one style and color, and State highways in another, it is helpful to have the connecting link between two Interstates which meets the Interstate standard in the Interstate style and color.
Tom
Those maps don't deserve to be bought. There's no reason to make a distinction in color depending on what the route marker looks like. All freeways should have the same color, whether or not they're Interstates. The style of map you describe makes NYC look awfully strange, with all the parkways playing second fiddle (which they certainly don't do in real life, except to truckers).
Besides, I-238 is a short connector used overwhelmingly by daily commuters. These people don't care how it looks on a map.
Those maps don't deserve to be bought. There's no reason to make a distinction in color depending on what the route marker looks like.
Whoah! Just for that it doesn't deserve to be bought? I know it's the roadgeek in me that likes to see those distinctions, but even for the average driver it's not a bad thing to have the interstates in a certain color.
:-) Andrew
Why? What's the advantage to the map user of having two highways of identical design, one carrying an Interstate marker and one not, depicted differently?
I agree that a limited access highway is a limited access highway, but parkways merit a different color because of the truck restriction.
While we're still on the subject of Interstates, Can anyone explain the deal with I-95 in New Jersey???? First you think it's all of the Jersey Turnpike to the Delware Memorial Bridge, THEN you find out I-95 actually runs parallel to the Turnpike along the Delaware River through Philly and Bucks County, PA up until Trenton where it loops back southbound and becomes I 295 south heading back the teh DEL MEM BRIDGE!!!!! Can anybody explain that one????
A piece of I-95 in New Jersey between I-287 or thereabouts and Trenton was never built.
Whether it's ever built or not, I still think I-95 should be transferred over to the Turnpike itself. Whether or not NJDOT ever builds the proposed and cancelled highway, the Turnpike is still the most direct route for through I-95 traffic.
Oh, that's easy. I-95 doesn't exist through central Jersey :)
It was originally supposed to head from NYC to Philly, but a few wealthy towns near Princeton were able to stop it from being built through them.
I-95 was originally supposed to continue north of its connection w/I-295 near Lawrenceville and continue up through Hopewell, Montgomery Township, Hillsborough, and eventually meet I-287 near New Brunswick. One plan had a massive interchange for 95 & 287 right where the Easton Ave exit is on I-287 (another poster recently supplied some scans of gas station maps from the 60s with the proposed routes).
Local opposition (most notably from the bucolic hamlet of Harlingen in Montogomery Twp.) stalled the project for years, eventually resulting in the missing link of I-95 being de-designated. This was unfortunate (depending upon one's point of view), mostly because it would have seriously relieved congestion on what is still the only "major" artery (if you can call two lanes in each direction --in some areas only one lane in each direction-- a major artery) between central Somerset County and Princeton -- US 206. A section of the Turnpike was signed for years as "Temporary I-95", a designation which will become permament.
It also would have relieved congestion on the already overburdened US-1 corridor.
The prospect of reviving the project somes up every now and again in local papers when people talk about what can be done to alleviate the horrible traffic in the area. But in fact, the 2nd Ave Subway stands a far greater chance of eventually being constructed than this link does.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
The short form: I-95 is unfinnished.
The long form: I-95 was supposed to run down the Turnpike from NYC until Exit 10, then share I-287 until some point arround the NJ 27 exit. From there a new highway, the Middlesex Freeway would carry it and connect near Trenton to the current southern I-95 through the Philadelphia area. The Middlesex Freeway was killed because of NIMBYs in Central Jersey, and I've hear also because the NJ Tpke Authority didn't want a free road siphoning off drivers from its tolls. As a result, there is NO direct freeway route between New York City and Philadelphia.
Until recently, the most official route for I-95 was (southbound) NJ Tpke to Exit 7a, then I-195 west to I-295 north, which becomes I-95 south--a very indirect route. To visit my friend in Philly, I used to just take US 1 to the southern I-95. Or sometimes I would take the NJ Tpke to the PA Tpke to the first exit, US 13 to PA 413 to I-95.
Anyway, the new solution is to run I-95 on the NJ Tpke up through exit 6, then onto the PA Tpke connector, then onto new ramps to the current I-95. The remaining current I-95 from there north to Trenton would be redesignated, proably as part of I-295.
:-) Andrew
The New Jersey Turnpike, for a good part of its length, is a strange animal - built to Interstate standards, considered an Interstate by many if not most of its users, yet not an Interstate.
As far as I know, the only other major roadway that shares these characteristics is Florida's Turnpike.
The Jersey Turnpike was built before the Interstate system began.
Kentucky has several former toll roads that are interstate standard which the tolls were removed from in the last 10-15 years as the bonds were paid off (what a novel concept). I believe some of the Purchase Parkway, Western Kentuck Parkway and Bowling Green Parkway are to be included in the zig-zaggy Interstate 69 project, which will run from the Lower Rio Grand Valley in Texas to south-central Michigan.
We have an example of a former turnpike here in Denver: US 36 between Denver and Boulder. It was built in 1951 and became a free road in 1967. It's still known as the Denver-Boulder Turnpike. Although many of the original viaducts have been replaced over the years, a few are still in place.
By the same token, we have a new toll highway in metro Denver: E-470. The nice thing about it is that there's less traffic on it than on I-25. That may change this fall when T-Rex begins. That's the massive rebuilding of I-25 and adding a light rail line alongside it.
>>> The New Jersey Turnpike, for a good part of its length, is a strange animal - built to Interstate standards, considered an Interstate by many if not most of its users, yet not an Interstate. <<<
Just before the beginning of the Interstates there were a number of toll roads built, Including the NJ Turnpike, NY Thruway, Ohio Turnpike and Indiana Toll Road. When the Indiana Toll Road and the Ohio Turnpike were connected to the Penn Turnpike and NJ Turnpike, it allowed driving from just outside of NYC to Chicago without a traffic signal for the first time.
These toll roads put the U.S. Highway system to shame, and the Interstate system was proposed in the ‘50s as an upgrade. IIRC, when it was proposed it was to be all free highway, not using any of the existing toll roads because it was considered not politically correct to have a public highway system which favored the rich.
Tom
I love ho the mainlines of the Pennsylvania and Ohio Turnpikes and the Indiana Toll Road form one long, continuous turnpike.
:-) Andrew
If you really want to go far using all toll roads, then you can connect from the PA Turnpike to the NJ Turnpike, to the Garden State Parkway, NYS Thruway mainline, Berkshire Extension and then the Mass Pike.
Of course, since just staying on I-90 is faster (or is I-90 to I-86/NY-17 to I-84 back to I-90 faster?), I'd think that the best bet for anybody who wants to take the above route is to stay on the Turnpike and I-95, then take I-87 to I-278, and take the first ramp on the right to connect to NY-900G, then take the next ramp again and drive around until you get to some big buildings.
Or, for an even more pointless routing: Chicago Skyway - Indiana Toll Road - Ohio Turnpike - Pennsylvania Turnpike - New Jersey Turnpike - Garden State Parkway - New York State Thruway mainline and Niagara Extension to the Pennsylvania border. Sure, you could have just used I-90 from Elyria to the PA-NY border, but that's no fun.
The dip down to I-84 via I-86/NY 17 is a significant detour. I-90 to I-86/NY 17 to I-81 to I-88 to I-90 takes only a bit longer, but it avoids all of the Thruway toll except B1-B3 and is a great deal more scenic. I haven't computed the mileage, but it might be worthwhile to stay on the Ohio Turnpike past Elyria to Youngstown, "exit" at the bump to I-80, take that all the way to I-81, and then take I-84 from beginning to end. (From Columbus, I-71 - I-76 - I-80 - I-81 - I-84 is more direct than I-71 - I-271 - I-90, and the total toll until reaching the MassPike is $1, eastbound only.)
New York State Thruway mainline and Niagara Extension to the Pennsylvania border.
The Niagara Extension is I-190 to the Lewiston-Queenston Bridge. The section from Buffalo to the PA border is part of the mainline, even if it has a different toll section.
Sorry, I meant Erie, not Niagara. The Thruway Authority considers it a separate section, distinct from the mainline.
When they finished I-80 through Pennsylvania, it made the New York-to-Chicago drive much quicker and for less, since it's free, and there are no tunnels. We used it for the first time in 1971. However, it wasn't until 1974 that I-80 was finished through New Jersey, and by then we had moved to Connecticut. We had to use NJ 94, IIRC, or US 46.
I-80 is also a lot more direct than the Pennsylvania Turnpike all the way down to the New Jersey Turnpike. Or did you use US 22 from the Harrisburg area? Parts of I-78 postdate even I-80 in New Jersey.
>>> The New Jersey Turnpike, for a good part of its length, is a strange animal - built to Interstate standards, considered an Interstate by many if not most of its users, yet not an Interstate. <<<
Just before the beginning of the Interstates there were a number of toll roads built by corporations without tax money, Including the NJ Turnpike, NY Thruway, Ohio Turnpike and Indiana Toll Road. When the Indiana Toll Road and the Ohio Turnpike were connected to the Penn Turnpike and NJ Turnpike, it allowed driving from just outside of NYC to Chicago without a traffic signal for the first time.
These toll roads put the U.S. Highway system to shame, and the Interstate system was proposed in the ‘50s as an upgrade. IIRC, when it was proposed it was to be all free highway, not using any of the existing toll roads because it was considered not politically correct to have a public highway system which favored the rich.
Tom
We know. You just said that four minutes ago.
>>> You just said that four minutes ago. <<<
Does anyone know how these double posts occur. In this case I had previewed the post, gone back to make corrections a couple of times, and finally hit the post button from the preview scree. Shortly thereafter I saw the double post in the index and thought that I had posted an early draft by mistake. I inspected both posts and they were identical and my final draft. If they had been a few seconds apart I could consider it possibly a double keystroke, but four minutes is a complete mystery.
Any ideas?
Tom
Back before Dave was gracious enough to rework the server, I can attest to a number of "doubles" myself - I'd hit the SUBMIT button and nada, nugga, nothing. So I figure to myself, "server too busy to take the post" ... so I hit cancel, waited a minute or so and tried again and it went straight away. Went to look, and there was the double posting with no way to delete the duplicate.
And I can WELL understand why "delete" isn't an option here. I've seen it used in too many other places to fake someone else, go in and kill their post on them, posing as them. If I ran this place, I wouldn't allow it EITHER.
But that's how I did it. I learned to just sit and wait, go do something else until I saw "posted" ... but since Unca Dave redid the place a while back, this NEVER happens anymore. :)
Gremlins? Pookahs? BMTMan doing his Lucky Luciano "thang?" Have you checked for pods in the basement? Had a Priest do a bedside? Called for a car inspector? Inquiring mimes knead to no ...
Certain versions of Netscape has a "feature" that submits forms twice if you try to print the resulting page or if you use certain combination of "back" buttons. I think this was mainly in Netscape 4.0 and 4.5 if I remember correctly.
Lexcie
Never saw that myself, but Netscape has always had suspicious, weird problems on Windows boxes. Funny how Netscape on any other platform was smooth as a baby's bum. :)
I haven't had myself in such a situation of late, but I do recall I would often do that accidentla duplicate submission myself and Dave's code would catch it, insisting it was a duplicate and couldn't post it at all unless I changed something (this happened in the past too but I haven't seen this oddity in a long long time). But you're probably right about that.
The problem with my dupe checking code is that it only checks sequential posts for the problem. If a second person makes a post in between the two "duplicates" it doesn't detect that. It's too much effort to do a full text comparison of all the messages on the board for each post.
What about having a cache containing pointers to the records in the database for the last posts from each "handle", so that instead of comparing it with the global last post, you could compare it with the last post from that handle? (I don't remember if this is a cookie site) but if it is, you could even store that pointer on the client box. Or you could just have a first-in-first-out fixed dimension cache to hold say the last 25 handles that were posting.
Please don't ask me to write the code though.
Lexcie
Been a long time since I've done that and was amused seeing it the first time ... I tell ya, you've done WONDERFULLY well with this place. Only wish a few of the others here would show a bit of respect for all your work here. But me? I'm as happy as a clam ... and some of the clams I hang with are way too happy for their own good. :)
At one time, your duplicate-checking code even checked duplicates between messages that were never even posted! When I would click on the Preview Message button, hit the Back button on my browser, then click on the Post Message button, the message would not be posted unless I had changed the message. Thankfully, that doesn't happen any more.
Now maybe you can allow angle brackets to be displayed without being interpreted as HTML tags!
<Q> =
- Lyle Goldman
Ok, well it could be a bug.
Ok I've typed something, then previewed it, now I've gone back. And I'll preview it again.
Looks good to me so far.
That one only showed up once...
When the Indiana Toll Road and the Ohio Turnpike were connected to the Penn Turnpike and NJ Turnpike, it allowed driving from just outside of NYC to Chicago without a traffic signal for the first time.
Of course, you still can't (or at least not easily) drive from NYC to Philadelphia without a traffic signal.
NJT to 195 West to 295 South to Ben Franklin Bridge.
Well, OK. But then you end up hitting a light the very second you hit Philly, before there's any access to I-95 or I-676.
The most official way is the very indirect route via the NJ Turnpike to exit 7A, then I-195 west to I-295 north, which becomes I-95 south. No traffic lights, but you lose at least 20 miles.
US 1 to I-95 is usually my choice, or NJT to Penna Tpke to US 13 south to PA 413 north to I-95 south (approximating the future I-95 as best as one can.)
:-) Andrew
One solution would be for NJTurnpike to build a direct interchange with the Atkasntic City Expwy.
So does anyone wonder why the Amtrak NEC makes money, but the Amtrak Lakeshore loses money hands over fist? Here, I have an idea. Tear up the Ohio Turnpike (does anyone know who James W. Shocknessy was anyway?) Replace the turnpike with a high speed line. Buy new Swedish X2000 tilting trains for that line. Voila.
Lexcie
So does anyone wonder why the Amtrak NEC makes money, but the Amtrak Lakeshore loses money hands over fist? Here, I have an idea. Tear up the Ohio Turnpike (does anyone know who James W. Shocknessy was anyway?) Replace the turnpike with a high speed line. Buy new Swedish X2000 tilting trains for that line. Voila.
To use a popular Australian expression, that idea would be about as well-received as a turd in a swimming pool.
James W. Shocknessy oversaw much of the design work and financing of the Ohio Turnpike. They must have miscalculated when the base was put down, because the original concrete didn't hold up very long. By the 60s, the highway was being resurfaced. Even then, tolls didn't go up at all between 1957 and the early 80s. The Indiana Toll Road OTOH held up much longer, but tolls kept going up and up.
They had a parade in downtown South Bend when the Toll Road was dedicated. It was dedicated, in fact, one day after the South Shore's East Chicago bypass opened - Sept. 17, 1956. I asked my folks if they remember anything about the parade, and they don't.
>>> They had a parade in downtown South Bend when the Toll Road was dedicated <<<
The toll roads were a big deal when they opened. When the Ohio Turnpike opened, as teenagers we would take short rides (one or two interchanges and back) just for the joy of traveling on such a high speed highway.
I also remember traveling between NYC and Toledo, Ohio by car when the Penn Turnpike only ran from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. That was grueling trip in a new Oldsmobile which we often broke into two days with a stop at road side cabins.
After the Ohio Turnpike opened I was able to beat the Greyhound schedule hitchhiking from Toledo to NYC. I would start early outside an interchange and only accept a ride that was going into PA. Then I would catch a ride on the border, but only accept a ride going into NJ. At that border I would catch a ride into NYC. I found that I never had to wait more than five minutes to catch a ride.
Tom
My father remembers when there were no speed limits on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and car engines would literally catch on fire after trying to do 80-90 mph.
My folks took my grandparents for a ride on the Toll Road shortly after it was dedicated, then right after that my mother had me. (No, not in the car; my father got her to the hospital in plenty of time.)
Just before the beginning of the Interstates there were a number of toll roads built by corporations without tax money, Including the NJ Turnpike, NY Thruway, Ohio Turnpike and Indiana Toll Road.
I assume they were profitable as they still provide surpluses today - so when/why did they end up in government hands? Are there any private toll roads/tunnels/bridges in the US today?
Yes. There's at least one in California, and I think the 407 ETR in the Toronto area is privately owned.
Then there are the bridges. The Memorial Bridge between Parkersburg, WV and Belpre, OH is privately owned and charges, I think, 40 cents each way. The nearby US 50 bridge is free, but the MB is closer to downtown Parkersburg. My favorite is the Dingmans Ferry Bridge across the Delaware River: 75-cent (don't even try to use your tokens from the I-80 bridge), collected by a guy who stands in the middle of the road collecting from traffic in both directions. No toll booth or anything. I'm sure there are others.
I don't know of any private tunnels.
The Memorial Bridge between Parkersburg, WV and Belpre, OH is privately owned and charges, I think, 40 cents each way. The nearby US 50 bridge is free, but the MB is closer to downtown Parkersburg.
There's also a privately owned, one-lane bridge across the upper Potomac between WV and MD. It was shut down for a while because of structural problems, but IIRC it's been reopened.
All funding for operations, maintenance, etc. comes strictly from tolls collected. The original bonds may be retired, but somebody's got to pay for upkeep. It's the same story with the Illinois Tollways.
I believe the toll road from the DC area out to Dulles is a private road... at least it was constructed as such.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What about just renumbering the turnpike I-95 since it pretty much is the straight route and most natural run anyway (straight to the bridge and then on to Baltimore and DC. adn redesignate the 95/295 loop as 295 and treat it like a "super beltway" looping through Philly,Trenton and Wilmington. At least then 95 would be a continuous north-south highway!
interstate hyways where to be toll free roadways. that is way the turnpike was never I-95. (in the begining)
Part of the New Jersey Turnpike is already I-95, and its Newark Bay Extension is I-78. The New York State Thruway is I-87 and I-90 (and I-95). The Massachusetts Turnpike is I-90. The Pennsylvania Turnpike is I-76, I-276, I-476, and I-70. The Ohio Turnpike is I-76, I-80, and I-90. The Indiana Toll Road is I-80 and I-90. The Illinois Tollway system consists of parts of I-80, I-88, I-90, I-94, and I-294. (I'm afraid the Chicago Skyway is not I-90, despite what your map may claim.)
Then there the dozens toll bridges and tunnels, many of which are part of Interstate highways.
Don't forget Interstate 44 in Oklahoma, which is a series of toll roads covering about 350 miles from near Joplin, Mo. to near Wichita Falls, Tx. (like the NYS Thruway at Buffalo, it has non-toll sections for commuters in the Tulsa and Oklahoma City areas)
I agree.
The objection is that I-95 would then not pass through Philadelphia. I don't see what difference that makes, but I guess some people measure the worth of their cities by how many Interstates enter them. Seems silly to me.
There's been a movement afoot down here for 2 years or so to renumber I-495 (loop by Port of Wilmington) as I 95 and call the existing 95 throught the city "business 95" in order to siphon off the passers-thru. But of course the opposition is that it will hurt tourism and revenues from the tax-free shoppers.
It may not be an issue of worth-measurement but instead one of reducing confusion. I-95 has been I-95 through Penna for so long that changing it may be more trouble than it's worth. The connection via Exit 6 is one of the best ways of connecting the two I-95 sections without having to "un-number" too much.
I suppose that's a reasonable argument, but I-95 should have never been assigned in Pennsylvania at all. When the number was given, the Turnpike already existed and was a better route for I-95 than any other existing or proposed route.
Has everyone forgotten the Philadelphia is the 4th or 5th largest city in the US and will never allow itself to lose the major east coast north-south interstate running through it? That's why 95 was put there to start with.
I suppose Philadelphia and the other SE Pennsyvania sections that I-95 touches are afraid they'll lose business if the Deleware Memorial Bridge is renamed from I-295.
I supposed if you really, really stupid, or just zoning out while driving north and equate I-95 with the road to New York, you might stay on it through north Wilmington and Philadelphia, but most people already know to avoid the Philly traffic jam by following I-295 across the bridge.
When I drive up to NYC, and if its during the afternoon, I'll stay on I-295 all the way to Exit 57 in New Jersey, then take U.S. 130 north from there to State Highway 32, jog across to the Turnpike and then take it two exits to the N.J. 439 - Outerbridge Crossing exit and then cut across SI and Brooklyn into Manhattan. Takes a few minutes longer if you hit the lights around Princeton Junction on 130, but the total Turnpike toll comes to 45 cents and the gas stations around Bordentown as you get off I-295 are among the cheapest in the state, so the side trip just about pays for itself.
Barring unusual traffic at the Holland Tunnel, how could it possibly be worthwhile to go through Staten Island and Brooklyn to get to Manhattan, especially if you want to avoid the $3 Battery Tunnel toll? There are enough alternate routes from Newark on up that it's usually not too bad. True, the Turnpike toll is a bit higher, but you can easily bail out onto US 1, and the gas stations lining the Holland Tunnel approach are quite inexpensive (I don't know how they compare to the ones around Bordentown).
From there a new highway, the Middlesex Freeway...
SOMERSET Freeway. The Middlesex Freeway is I-287.
"Anyway, the new solution is to run I-95 on the NJ Tpke up through exit 6, then onto the PA Tpke connector, then onto new ramps to the current I-95. The remaining current I-95 from there north to Trenton would be redesignated, proably as part of I-295. "
Yes, this is the current plan. The PA turnpike website even talks about it. But it's years off. Meanwhile, northbound from Phily, you can get off 95 just south of Trenton onto US 1 (which is an expressway at that point), then onto NJ 29 in Trenton, which feeds into I-195, leading to the Turnpike. Not sure if this works in reverse (never tried it).
Yup, that's the story.
But as for a "direct freeway route between New York City and Philadelphia", the following looks like it would work, at least on the map, though I haven't tried it:
NJ Turnpike south to Exit 7A, I-195 west past I-295 onto NJ 29, then US 1 south to I-95 south in PA.
Question: would this work? Or is there a problem trying to go from NJ 29 to US 1, or from US 1 to I-95?
I know it works in the northbound direction -- I've done it. What I don't know is the ease of connection from NJ 29 to US 1 south.
I don't think NJ 29 is a freeway all the way to US 1. I tried it once and got mired in downtown Trenton.
:-) Andrew
I-278 makes no sense by any real world standards. Any plans that would have connected it to I-78 are just this side of impossible, and in fact the originally proposed route of I-78 didn't really make much sense anyway. They would have had it running through central Brooklyn to merge into the Nassau Expressway (good so far) then turned north to eventually become the Clearview Expwy then ulitmately back west with the end of the Throggs Neck Bridge into the Bruckner Interchange. I would have just kept it running east, maybe to the end of the Nassau Expwy (which also would turn slightly back west, but not enough to matter) or continue it on the proposed Atlantic Expwy (Sunrise Hwy) to the Hamptons.
At any rate, I-278 has to go. I'd give it a number like I-895, since it really is a loop of I-95. It already applies to the Sheridan, so I'd make a mountain out of that molehill and extend that designation all the way from its merge with the Bruckner to Linden, NJ. The remaining mile or two of I-278 in the Bronx could be another x95, maybe I-995.
I don't think it's essential that a 3di Interstate with an even first digit meet its 2di parent twice, so I can deal with I-495 in New York. That is, of course, if you think of 34th St as I-495 and hold out hope for a cross-Manhattan tunnel. (I even have a mile-marker system worked out for the LIE which begins at the state line---that is the middle of the Lincoln Tunnel.) If nothing else, I-495 does meet I-295, which also works if you forgive the "loop" rule.
:-) Andrew
You have to remember that many of oday's interstate numberings came as a result (back in the 1950's) of "plans for the future" that never got built.
There was major talk of a bridge from Orient Point to Rhode Island...making the I-495 numbering completely valid.
As I mentioned elsewhere, there is I-238 in the bay area of California. This one doesn't make any sense at all -- nowhere is there even an I-38 for it to connect to (it would have been way down south anyway....) It connects I-880 and I-580 in Castro Valley/Hayward area.
I believe they had to resort to calling it I-238 becasue all the I-X80's had been taken up, so they simply retained the old number from the un-upgraded highway when it was just a State/U.S. Route.
No, they stuck with the 238 because it's an upgraded state highway, CA238, which continues from both ends. It got an I number for familiarity, since most everyone in the US knows what an Interste Highway sheild looks like.
-Hank
Generally, when State or Federal road get upgraded into Interstates, they get a new number designation, for instance NY 17 becoming I-86. (fo rnow west of elmira, in the future, all the way to rockland and jersey?)
Here we go, backup for me: http://gbcnet.com/roads/I-238/
I-86 would end in Harriman. NY 17 is a 4 lane undivided highway between Harriman and Sloatsburg, with a shrot 2 lane stretch in Harriman and a very narrow 4-lane stretch just north of Tuxedo (originally 2 lanes with shoulders, now 4 lanes, no shoulders). An interstate would never be designated so w/o being brought up to certain standards, which is why NY-17 hasn't been renamed I-86 east of Elmira. Intersections, for one, are a major no-no.
--Mark
Those wacky traffic lights in Liberty...
Well, one traffic light, at Exit 98 just west of Liberty, which KNOWS EXACTLY WHEN YOU'RE COMING and will be 100 percent guarenteed to turn red as you get within 1000 feet of the intersection. Every time, without fail. There's got to be a motion sensor in the ground there that automatically signals the light to turn red at the sign of oncomming traffic on Highway 17.
If you're driving eastbound and you're sure the light's going to turn red, take the abrupt unmarked exit a few hundred feet before the signal. That'll quickly dump you onto a dead-end street (near the Parksville Synagogue, which looks like it hasn't been used in at least 50 years, although I did daven mincha on its lawn one afternoon). Make the first left and you'll be back at the highway -- and if the light's red on the highway, you should have the green.
Thanks I'll remember that.
And I may be wrong, but I believe a friend of mine at school, who is from Liberty, davens there frequently. Of course, it could be another shul (though I'm pretty sure it's that one), but how many would there be in that area?
The Parksville Synagogue is in Parksville, a few miles west of Liberty. It's not terribly convenient for Liberty residents. I'm sure there's a shul in Liberty itself. You could be right, but on a nice summer afternoon the door was locked. (The building wasn't abandoned, though, that's for sure. A hose hooked up to the side wall was dumping water into the stream behind the shul.)
But there are other shuls in the general area. I know there's another old one, still active, in Ellenville.
I always seem to get caught on the westbound trip to Binghamton. I think someone in the diner on the north side of 17 may be controlling the light to make more people stop and think about getting off the have something to eat...
I always seem to get caught on the westbound trip to Binghamton. I think someone in the diner on the north side of 17 may be controlling the light to make more people stop and think about getting off to have something to eat...
That theory is utterly bizaare ... but just might be true. It has been established that the Breezewood situation in Pennsylvania is allowed to exist as a benefit to the travel-oriented businesses at the location. I wouldn't put it past New York authorities to pull something similar.
Very unlikely, for a number of reasons.
First, the only business there is the aforementioned diner. (There's a gas station on each side of the highway about a mile west of the intersection, but one is closed.)
Second, that diner only first opened about two years ago.
Third, that traffic signal will be gone within ten years or so.
Fourth, NYSDOT is not PennDOT.
Except around Sayre, between Binghamton and Elmira, where I believe N.Y. 17 actually does dip for just a little bit (following the Susquehana River's path) into Pennsylvania, but NYS seems to maintain the upkeep on the road.
Yes, NY 17 briefly dips into Pennsylvania near the US 220 interchange, and it is indeed maintained by NYSDOT straight through. This leads to the question of whether US 220 enters New York. On the one hand, it appears to terminate at NY 17, which is just into Pennsylvania. On the other, signage indicates that it terminates at old NY 17, just north of the modern highway, in New York. It's unclear what the final word is. The piece of highway in question isn't maintained by NYSDOT in any case, so it doesn't have reference markers, but the entrance ramp to eastbound NY 17 (which is undoubtedly in Pennsylvania and is maintained by NYSDOT) has a unique "P220" reference marker.
Over the past 25 years a lot of U.S. highways have been "decommissioned" in certain sections, as new highways have made the old routes obsolete. U.S. 66 is the most famous decommissioned route, but U.S. 15 befell the same fate in Upstate New York when I-390 was linked to N.Y. 17, so the section of U.S. 220 between old 17 and new 17 may also have been taken off the U.S. Highway rolls, which supposedly saves the federal government some 50-50 matching road funds.
US highways have nothing to do with funding. A US highway is funded no differently from a state highway. It's nothing more than a state highway with a differently shaped marker and a continuous number from state to state. The short piece of road in question -- about a block long -- isn't even state-maintained. Money had nothing to do with it.
US 220, incidentally, doesn't meet US 20, as it should. It could easily do so by taking over NY 34, but New York was never really into the US highway program to begin with.
As for US 15, it still exists in New York, but only from the Pennsylvania line to I-86/NY 17. From there the old route continues to Rochester as NY 15.
The way I understood it in the past, Interstate Highways were funded based on a 90-10 federal-to-state ratio, at least on the non-toll sections across the country, while U.S. Highways were maintained based on a 50-50 federal to state split, which also applied to the business U.S. and business Interstate routes around the country.
If state highway maintenance funds overall are split 50-50 with federal highway funds, then I suppose there would be no difference between the two funding formulas.
Sometimes they wait to change a designation until a connector road is finished. For the longest time PA route 9 branched off of the PA TURNPIKE (I-276) at Norristown and was called The "Northeast Extension" of the PA Turnpike while they took 35 years to build The Blue Route(I-476). When 476 opened in '92 it connected I-95 near Ridley to the 276/PA 9 interchange in Plymouth Meeting while they finished up the final section. in '95 after the interchange was finished the N>E Extension was fully connected to the Blue Route and the entire road all the way up to Scranton was renamed I-476
There actually are a few officially designated Interstates that have blatant violations like intersections. For instance, according to NJDOT, I-78 continues from the end of the Turnpike Newark Bay Extension along 12th and 14th Streets to and through the Holland Tunnel. I-70 exits the Pennsylvania Turnpike at Breezewood and runs along surface US 30 for a block.
NY 17 is mostly fine. There are only a few small clusters with intersections and driveways, and there's Kamikaze Curve in Binghamton.
There actually are a few officially designated Interstates that have blatant violations like intersections. For instance, according to NJDOT, I-78 continues from the end of the Turnpike Newark Bay Extension along 12th and 14th Streets to and through the Holland Tunnel. I-70 exits the Pennsylvania Turnpike at Breezewood and runs along surface US 30 for a block.
NY 17 is mostly fine. There are only a few small clusters with intersections and driveways, and there's Kamikaze Curve in Binghamton.
The ultimate "bad" Interstate has to be I-180 in Wyoming, which for its entire length of five miles or so is a regular surface street with traffic lights and so on. I guess the people in Cheyenne wanted their own Interstate but weren't able or willing to actually build one.
I know it isn't actually an interstate, but until recently (and possibly still today), 34 St in Manhattan had some signage indicating it as I-495.
Until the early 1970s, I-95 in southern RI followed SR 3, with intersections and no median.
34th Street still carries signage for I-495, and I have a mile-marker system worked out for I-495 that includes it. The terminus in Riverhead would be Mile 73.
:-) Andrew
No, 34th Street carries TO I-495 signage. It's not signed anywhere as I-495 itself.
That said, I know someone who addressed a letter to (some address) Interstate 495. It reached the intended address on 34th Street.
That said, I know someone who addressed a letter to (some address) Interstate 495. It reached the intended address on 34th Street.
Then there's the old story about a letter addressed as such:
Wood
John
Mass
It was delivered as intended, to John Underwood in Andover, Massachusetts.
FINALLY got into this one! The problem with the Liberty-Harriman section is that to upgrade to 'interstate standards', there a LOT of local exits which will have to be closed..and their is HOWLING around here about it already. BTW...most of the PEOPLE around really dont want an Interstate 86..its the POLTICIANS who seem hell bent on shoving it down our throats....
The last time I was up that way, the area right before Binghamton was one HUGE construction project:upgrading it by eliminating intersectiins,etc,etc....One thing about 17 that must be realized: WEST of Binghamton the whole thing was done as one big project in the 60's,and was constructed to ALMOST Interstate standards, so making that portion I86 wasn't very difficult at all..While the section EAST of Binghamton was done in fits and spurts as early as the late 40's!!! The section from Goshen approximately to Fair Oaks [exit 118], was originally built as a Middletown by-pass starting in 1949!!! Up until the early 70's there were actually intersections,and even a railroad crossing going across the damn thing!!! You can stil see from the highway where the ROW used to be.....
Actually, west of Binghamton the highway was also built in stages. When I first drove the westernmost section in 1997, it was still a super-2 (i.e., a freeway with only two lanes total, undivided) west of Chautauqua Lake. The Corning bypass wasn't completed until 1995 or so. And the section of NY 17 most severely in need of improvements is in the Elmira-Horseheads area. East of exit 98, the road is mostly good to go.
THey do. But I86 is a 'non-chargeable' interstate. It's being designated solely to help spur industry in the southern tier.
-Hank
That's what we were told out here in California. It was changed when it was upgraded during the BART Dublin-Pleasanton line was being built, and also received enhanced interchanges with I-880 so folks didn't have to drive through central Hayward on streets to get from I-580 to SR92.
As I mentioned elsewhere, there is I-238 in the bay area of California. This one doesn't make any sense at all -- nowhere is there even an I-38 for it to connect to (it would have been way down south anyway....) It connects I-880 and I-580 in Castro Valley/Hayward area.
Other Interstate numbers that don't make much sense:
I-97 (Baltimore to Annapolis) - really, this one is much too short to have merited a 2-digit number.
I-45 (Galveston to Dallas) - 2-digit numbers ending in 0 or 5 are supposed to be reserved for major cross-country routes. I-45 is entirely within the state of Texas.
I-99 - 'nuff said.
How about I-684 from White Plains to the I-84 section in Katonah? To my understanding, 3di interstates nos. that begin with an even no. are supposed to lead you through a city. I-684 stops about three miles short of White Plains, and at best only cuts through the ritzy suburb of Greenwich, CT. IMO, I-684 would be better as NY 684 or even I-(odd No.)84.
For the record, I-684 meets I-84 in Brewster, Putnam County, about 10 miles north of Katonah, in Westchester County (which I-684 also goes through.)
I-684 probably should have had an odd first digit. In fact, it was originally going to be part of I-87.
:-) Andrew
I've seen old maps where it was part of I-87. I think this was before the Tappan Zee was built. It went up to the junction near Brewster, then ran with I-84 to the other side of the Hudson, where it picked up the thruway
No. The Thruway always ran across the Tappan Zee. For some reason, early plans had I-87 diverging from the Thruway, running up I-684 and over I-84, and rejoining the Thruway at Newburgh. (I wonder if a direct interchange was planned for the through I-87 movement there; there isn't one currently between the Thruway and I-84.) Sounds crazy to me.
That direct I84-to-the-Thruway exit is ANOTHER pipe dream that been simmering for YEARS..almost as long as the Second Ave subway....
At least New York isn't alone in this one. They've been waiting 25 years for a direct connection from Interstate 30 to State Highway 360 in Texas, which is the main north-south road from the D-FW Airport and passes right by the Six Flags-Ballpark at Arlington tourist complex. That's been promised since they took the tolls off I-30 in the 1970s, but so far, nothing...
>> To my understanding, 3di interstates nos. that begin with an even no. are supposed to lead you through a city <<
No, they're supposed to bypass around a city. 287 is an unfinished loop around NYC, 295 loops around Trenton, the Beltway around Washington DC is 495, etc.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I always heard that the odd 3 digit interstates had one terminal in the city and extended outward in one general direction, while the even numbered ones either went completely through the city or around it. For example, I-495 in NY theoretically goes through NY, with the LIE on the east and the Lincoln Tunnel on the west, while I-495 in Washington is a beltway. (The three digit routes can be repeated from state to state.) Here, in upstate, we have I-190 (from Buffalo outward to the Lewiston/Queenston Bridge), I-290 (beltway around northern suburbs of Buffalo), I-390 (from Rochester going toward the Southern Ties), I-490 (passing through Rochester east and west), I-590 (bad example; loops around Rochester's east side), I-690 (passing through Syracuse east and west), I-790 (connecting I-90 with Utica), I-890 (passing through Schenectady east and west) and I-990 (extending out of Buffalo toward Lockport), which generally meet these criteria.
But the criteria they all meet is the simple, even starts and ends at an interstate, odd ends at a non-interstate at at least one end.
You've also mentioned the only complete set of 3dis.
Now if we can get Maryland to build another 3di off of I-95...
Not to mention I390 which is the connector from [what is now]I86 in the Corning/Elmira area up to Rochester..Its longer that some 2 digit Interstates....
No. even numbers start and end at an interstate, odd numbers start at one but end elsewhere, or have two non-interstate ends and just meet one in the middle.
I-684 runs from I-84 to I-287. It's not I-284 or I-484 because those already exist near Hartford and I-684 passes through Connecticut.
I should also mention that some 3dis only intersect with other 3dis, like Maryland I-795.
Except that 3 digit Interstates with an odd leading number are supposed to off a main road and terminate in a city- for example I-787 runs from the Thruway into downtown Albany, and I-395 runs from I-95 in Richmond VA and ends at the intersection of New York Avenue and 4th Street (SW, I think....), in the District of Columbia.
BTW, there's a whole bunch of those red-light cameras on NY Avenue, also known as Route 50.
Wait until they build I-69, which, thanks to all the representatives they had to placate, will take an extremely wayward course from Brownsville at the Texas-Mexico border to Southern Michigan (wayward, as in most truck drivers today wouldn't go from Texas to Michigan by way of Mississippi, but that's where the planned route goes)
>>> 2-digit numbers ending in 0 or 5 are supposed to be reserved for major cross-country routes. I-45 is entirely within the state of Texas. <<<
A Texan would not consider that to be inconsistent. :-)
Tom
Yes, but they may get ticked off soon -- there's a proposal to extend I-45 north along thre U.S. 75-69 corridor into Oklahoma, which is to Texans what New Jersey is to New Yorkers.
Yup! Everyone north and east of the Red River is considered a Yankee.
It just happens that that a lot of Yankees moved down to the Land of "W" because of corporate relocations. Even the former mayor of Plano, TX (Dallas suburb), now state senator Florence Shapiro is originally from NY, NY.
Jose
(Dallas, TX)
Yes, the Dallas sububrs owe a lot of their growth to the "we can screw with these people all we want, because they would never leave our wonderful city" policies and tax schemes of New York politicians in the 1960s and 70s. They made the CEOs decide taking a powder to the low-tax (and weaker union) D-FW area was a good idea.
Yes, the Dallas sububrs owe a lot of their growth to the "we can screw with these people all we want, because they would never leave our wonderful city" policies and tax schemes of New York politicians in the 1960s and 70s. They made the CEOs decide taking a powder to the low-tax (and weaker union) D-FW area was a good idea.
Very true. What's really sad is the fact that two worst losses, J.C. Penney and Exxon, both happened in the late 1980's or thereabouts. Both companies had strong enough ties to NYC that they stayed for years after the bad attitudes and taxing schemes you mentioned drove many other companies away. Which means, in my opinion, that city politicians had ample opportunities to retain these huge companies, but blew the opportunities and let thousands of jobs (and an incalculable amount of prestige) slip off to Texas. Disgraceful.
I-49 Louisiana
I-66 Virginia
I-17 Arizona
I-19 Arizona
...and there are more.
I-4 Florida
I-12 Louisiana
I-16 Georgia
I-43 Wisconsin
I-72 Illinois
I-86 Idaho
I-87 New York
I-88 New York
I-88 Illinois
I-96 Michigan
Not to mention misordered roads like I-71 and I-75 in Ohio, I-82 and I-84 in Oregon/Washington, I-87 and I-95 in the Bronx and one day I-86 and I-84 in New York. The list goes on.
Nothing wrong with an intrastate Interstate if you ask me. If it's reasonably long and connects two cities, then it's A-OK by me. There might as well be more. For instance, I think it would make sense for US 101 to be upgraded to I-3 one day at least between LA and San Francisco.
:-) Andrew
Other Interstate numbers that don't make much sense:
I-97 (Baltimore to Annapolis) - really, this one is much too short to have merited a 2-digit number.
I-97 was constructed to replace MD3/US301 from Baltimore to US50 (the so-called "Ocean Gateway). It runs from I-695 (Baltimore Beltway) to US50 east of Annapolis. MDDOT got the number I-97 from the Feds since it runs north/south and it's close to I-95's route at the north end.
Being forced to drive on it from time to time, I'd say the number of the BQE should be 666.
They actually did have a U.S. Highway with that designation once, and while the U.S. system is supposed to work the same way as the Interstates -- even numbers east-west, odd numbers north-south -- U.S. 666 was a north-south route through eastern Arizona and Utah. It was the major north-south highway through the Navajo Nation, but due to the high rate of alcohol deaths on the road and the connotations of the number, the government changed it to U.S. 191 about a decade ago.
The Capital Beltway can easily become I-666 and not violate any rules.
American Pig wouldn't I-666 make that hwy. the Devel's highway??
Not only might it be politically appropriate, but I-66 is nearby, and could probably be connected, if not already......
That would make it the " Super Saten " hgy. 66666
In the hearts and minds of people who drive it daily, the Capital Beltway is I-666, in spirit if not in actual signature. L'Enfant's original DC design, combined with "The World Revolves Around Us" attitude of the highway designers during the 1950s, 60s and 70s make the Beltway the only road around DC for people going from Maryland to Virginia and from Montgomery to Prince Georges County -- ther most screwed up highway system in the nation and one that had to have had Satan's help in the planning stages (though it sure has helped boost Metro ridership over the past 25 years).
In the hearts and minds of people who drive it daily, the Capital Beltway is I-666, in spirit if not in actual signature. L'Enfant's original DC design, combined with "The World Revolves Around Us" attitude of the highway designers during the 1950s, 60s and 70s make the Beltway the only road around DC for people going from Maryland to Virginia and from Montgomery to Prince Georges County -- ther most screwed up highway system in the nation and one that had to have had Satan's help in the planning stages (though it sure has helped boost Metro ridership over the past 25 years).
There has been talk of another Potomac River bridge, upstream of the current west Beltway bridge (not the to-be-replaced Wilson bridge, the other one).
Connecting Sam Eig Parkway (the ridiculously short I-370) in Maryland with State Highway 28 in Virigina, which has been upgraded to near-Interstate level in the Sterling-Dulles Airport area, would make tremendous sense, since there is no way across the Potomac right now other than the White's Ferry crossing (300 yards, $3 toll, with narrow roads on both sides -- quaint, but not a viable modern alternative). But the environmental activists and NIMBYs have all but killed any plans to hook up the two roads.
On the positive side from a transit perspective, the fact that 95 percent of the roads in that area point towards downtown DC, where only about 65 percent of the people at best want to go, has boosted the odds that the Dulles Metro extension and possibly a second Virgina crossing from Arlington into Georgetown and towards Dupont Circle will be built. Unlike New York, the NIMBYs really haven't gone after the subway down there yet, though I'm sure whatever street was picked for the Georgetown line would draw its share of NIMBY lawsuits eventually.
Unlike New York, the NIMBYs really haven't gone after the subway down there yet, though I'm sure whatever street was picked for the Georgetown line would draw its share of NIMBY lawsuits eventually.
Didn't "neighborhood activists" already kill off the idea for a Metro line to Georgetown?
They did on the original Orange/Blue line back in the 1970s, but with traffic so bad now a second crossing has been proposed, and now people and businesses in Georgetown say they want it.
Sending the new line down M Street would seem to make the most sense, but M is pretty close to the Potomac waterfront, which could pose problems.] or raise construction costs. Send it down any other east-west street north of M and you run into a lot of high-priced Georgetown homes, and a lot of high-priced Georgetown lawyers who would probably be more than happy to take time of from their political lobbying to file a NIMBY suit against the new line.
NIMBY opposition to Metro expansion in Georgetown
They did on the original Orange/Blue line back in the 1970s, but with traffic so bad now a second crossing has been proposed, and now people and businesses in Georgetown say they want it.
If Washington is anything like New York, the fact that most people and businesses in Georgetown want a Metro line is meaningless, if there are just a few determined opponents who are willing to (mis)use the legal system to stop it.
M Street seems most logical, I'd say. Those upscale merchants wouldnt like it at all, however.
Yah, I TOTALLY agreee. Almost the ENTIRE length of I-278, from the Goethals Bridge (I KNOW it technically starts in Linden)to the Bruckner Interchange is the "Highway to Hell".
I dunno, I've always considered the BQE to be the most exciting drive in the city - what other highway comes close to it in variety of elevations/depths, hairpin turns, creative exits and entrances, and views of the skylines of both Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn??
As long as traffic's light (which happens pretty often, in my limitted non-rush-hour experience) it's awesome!
Yes, the scenery is interesting, I agree. However, just try it in evening rush hour. It motivated me to take public transit from my home in Southern Staten Island to Forest Hills.
Another, more serious problem with I-278 is that it falls woefully short of federal standards for Interstate highways. Apart from maybe the Staten Island Expressway, little or none of I-278 is up to Interstate standards. Interstates all over the New York City area violate the same standards, with 2di's I-95 and I-87 not exceptions, but I-278 is bad even for New York City.
The lanes are too narrow throughout Brooklyn and Queens, sometimes dangerously so. Hairpin curves are a common sight throughout. There's almost never a shoulder lane. There are many on-ramps without any acceleration lane to speak of. The route is fragmented onto several different roads, and in the case of westbound travel through northwestern Queens, requires exiting the "Mainline" Grand Central Pkwy with one lousy lane continuous as I-278. Futhermore, the section between there an the Triborough Bridge is unforgivably closed to commercial traffic, forcing trucks onto the Astoria Blvd. service road and causing a heinous backup.
Yet somehow this passes for an interstate.
:-) Andrew
Does anyone remember/know if the BQE was designated North-South before it was I-278? There are some signs that refer to it as North-South, most notably, the orange temporary construction signs on the LIE Westbound for the "BQE Southbound" exit.
US 1 in Connecticut has an even worse identity crisis; the signage has it constantly changing from a N-S road to E-W.
Here's my take.
The BQE and I-278 are not the same entity. The BQE begins at the Battery Tunnel (despite what signs claim), runs up through Brooklyn and Queens, and splits into two forks near Northern Boulevard. Both forks end at the Grand Central Parkway. I-278 runs from New Jersey to the Bronx and encompasses most but not all of the BQE -- specifically, the east leg of the BQE has no touring route number (it's not even clear if it has a reference route number -- the reference markers call it 278, as opposed to the 278I one finds on I-278 proper).
I-278, for whatever reason, runs east-west. Signs reflect that. The BQE runs north-south -- certainly unofficially if not officially (I don't know if the BQE is an official entity anymore). An occasional temporary sign reflects that, too.
Really, the names make more sense. I-278 as a whole serves little purpose -- who would follow I-278 from the LIE interchange to the Bruckner Interchange when the LIE to the Van Wyck/Whitestone (or the BQE to the GCP to the Whitestone) is a better route in just about all ways? Strictly speaking, the GCP is an exit off of the continuous I-278 -- even though far less traffic uses the west leg of the BQE than uses either the east leg or the GCP through route. And New Yorkers invariably refer to the highways by name, anyway.
What I'd like to see (those of you who read misc.transport.road have probably seen this already) is a unique marker for each (named) highway. We have a head start: the GCP already has one, and the old Belt Parkway markers could be revived. (Outside the city, the Palisades Interstate Parkway effectively has one -- although the same design is used on many of the other roads in Harriman State Park, most travelers don't know that. The Long Mountain Parkway does have a unique marker.) The MTA crossings also have unique markers. Finish off the job and come up with markers for each of the other parkways and expressways. Then treat those markers as standard highway markers. Both on the large green directionals and on the side of the road, they'd appear, along with whatever numerical designation remains. Directions would be assigned based on the actual highway, so the BQE would run north-south (even if I-278 runs east-west) and the CBE would run east-west (even if I-95 runs north-south). I think that would go a long way towards eliminating the confusion: the Throgs Neck Bridge is clearly east, not north, of the George Washington Bridge, even if the I-95 through route runs north-south. This way, both would be signed.
Sounds like a perfect idea.
Each highway doesn't necesarily have ot have its own special sign though, I'm thinking like how on Long Island all the highways have the same lighthouse signs - only the big capital letter naming the highway is different.
Maybe highways in the city could copy the idea, but with a skyline image, or a statue-of-liberty head (or a rudy giuliani head?) instead of the lighthouse.
(Reminds me, all along Ave Z in brooklyn there are signs leading to the Belt in the long island parkway style, with the lighthouse! first time i saw that, i was so impressed i almost swerved into oncoming traffic :)
Another thing to consider is all the other pointless names for highways....how the Gowanus and the BQE overlap, how the Belt and the SIE are the "POW MIA" and the Belt is also the "Shore" and the "Leif Ericson" and how one of the highways on SI is the "Korean War Veterans Memorial highway"....I say we go back to the days when a highway was called by where it *went*, i.e. West Side Highway or Interboro...
The problem with the lighthouses is that they all look the same from a distance. For those who don't know the secret code (SO vs. SA vs. SM, etc.), even close up it's hard to tell them apart. The Westchester-style markers are a bit better but the last time I came around a bend and found myself staring at three of them, I missed my turn since I couldn't distinguish them quickly enough. Unique markers would alleviate that problem, at least for those vaguely familiar with each highway.
There are a few of those Belt Parkway markers, as well as at least one for the Cross Island Parkway:
They're better than nothing but the lighthouse seems somewhat out of place. (The CIP is technically part of the Belt so I don't mind that they use similar markers.)
As originally built, the Belt Parkway was in four sections: the Shore Parkway, the Southern Parkway, the Laurelton Parkway, and the Cross Island Parkway. For whatever reason, all but the last of these names as fallen into general disuse. Those POW-MIA and Leif Ericson names are relatively recent and are merely honorary designations, not actual highway names, although some maps get confused on this point.
Wow, nice picture thanks for posting it - where is that?
Out in Queens, near where the Belt becomes the Cross Island.
Thanks. I actually have well over a thousand photos. Many were posted on a web site that died a sudden death in January. Many more have been taken since. Eventually I'd like to get them all back up, but it won't be for a while. Requests are welcome.
For the record, that assembly must be on eastbound Linden Blvd. I drove by there today and saw the same signs. I actually like them. Perhaps those can be the Brooklny/Queens parkway shield while the Hudson Valley standard reins in the Bronx and Manhattan. Brooklyn and Queens are, after all, part of Long Island, and the Bronx and Manhattan part of the Hudson Valley. Now Staten Island, I don't know where to place.
:) Andrew
Yup, on Linden. At least I think that's where I found it.
I still think each expressway and parkway should have its own unique marker (although the Belt and Cross Island could share a common design -- perhaps with the section name in tiny print).
As for Staten Island, just use the New Jersey standard.
There is no Jersey standard...unless you mean the Garden State Pkwy, or do you mean the Palasades.
I don't think SI likes being lumped with New Jersey, though I think they might have an easier life in some ways (at least toll-wise) if they were part of it.
:-) Andrew
If the goal is to be helpful to out of towners, I suggest an hourglass for the Van Wyck, BQE, and Cross Bronx. Just to let people know that they shouldn't use the road unless they have lots of time.
Use a skull and crossbones for the Jackie Robinson.
Hmm....has anyone ever considered coloring the *asphalt* to let drivers know for certain what highway they're one? for instance, Lets give the Gowanus a sign showing a cross-section of a Canal with the word "gowanus" above it. And let's say the sign is bright green. If the highway were actually a shade of green until the wacky multiple-ramp transition into the BQE, where it shifted to another color (matching the BQE's own sign), I think people would be a lot more certain of where each highway began and ended, and be able to give better directions, etc.
(Not suggesting blindingly pastel colors here, just an unobtrusive coloring to the asphalt)
Another thing that might clear up the roads would be "END" signs like on the Interstate...for instance "END BELT PARKWAY" at the fork of the Cross Island and the Southern State. (i dont think they have any currently, though i may just have missed them)
The numbers are helpful to non-New Yorkers, who are more familiar with numbers than names. It's far easier to tell someone flying into LGA, renting a car, and driving to Staten Island to "follow the signs for 278 West" than "take the Grand Central Parkway westbound to the BQE southbound to the Gowanus Expressway to Verrazano Bridge to the Staten Island expressway."
On paper, 278 looks like a good bypass for travellers on I-95 to bypass Manhattan; of course, $10.50 in tolls and the traffic on the BQE render it useless.
Funny you should mention the Van Wyck to the Whitestone as a better route: it also involves an interstate highway number being applied to a single-lane ramp :).
I never said the numbers should be abolished, for precisely that reason. (Still, an out-of-towner who tries to get around using only the numbers will miss all the parkways but one.)
I-287 is a reasonable I-95 bypass; if it didn't swing so far west I'd say it should carry I-95 proper. The GSP to I-287 is another. The BQE isn't a bypass at all, since it goes through the city where I-95 skirts by it.
I would guess that as the former connector between the Park Ave. South and Broadway tracks, on the shuttle Grand Central is "south" and Times Square is "north." On the other hand, considering where the No. 7 train goes, on the Flushing line, Times Square is probably "south" while Grand Central is "north" on the way to the northern terminus at Main Street.
Now, if the TA ever built a (very) short shuttle line along Stuvyesant Street, it really would be impossible to add the north-south designation. Stuyvesant Street is the only street in Manhattan that runs due east-west.
OK how about this:
1.) Make the Second Ave. Subway IRT.
2.) Connect it up to PATH
3.) Run a line from PATH across Ninth St. to Third Ave., and then down Stuyvesant St. to the Second Ave. line -- volia! Stuyvesant Street subway, albeit not a shuttle.
Main problem here is that PATH is FRA compliant whereas NYCTA is not. Can't run the two on the same ROW or else someone (not sure who, but it's someone important or it wouldn't matter) will throw a fit.
Dan
How compliant is PATH with FRA? I heard that they regularly get waivers from various regulations to reflect the reality that it is a rapid transit system, not an mainline railroad like AMTRACK
The #7 isn't a South and North line, it's a West and East Line.
N/W Bwy Lines
Acoording to the TA it is a N/S line. N being Main Street and S being Times Square. TD explained why.
Peace,
ANDEE
So what is the L Line then?
N/W Bwy
I would guess that N is Canarsie and S is 8th Ave.
Peace,
ANDEE
Stop fooling around? Is it a north and south Line or what? You told me earlier that the #7 was a north and south Line, so what about the L line.
N/W Broadway Express
The Canarsie Line is north-south in NYCT parlance. Eighth Avenue is the "north" end, and Rockaway Parkway is the "south" end.
David
Ohhh Ok.
N/W
...is the 42st shuttle a north/south line also?
Yes. Times Square is the north end, Grand Central is the south end, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I also would like to say that the idea of a line running east/west under 125 would be an exellent idea. 125 may be one of the busiest cross town streets with traffice usually at a crawl, a subway linking the east side lines and other lines (and providing access to metro north) would be a boon to the area.
I completely agree.
In fact, if we put aside the construcvtion costs for a moment, having a line run straight across 125 St, then dive into a tunnel and head for Queens, with transfer stations with the 7 and new cross-Queens service might work out nicely, with a lot of ridership.
Of course, I'm ignoring costs, NIMBY, competition on the Capital Plan with other projects, political considerations...
On August 28th, 1922, Mayor Hylan proposed a line from 125th Street (near today's Henry Hudson Pkwy) crosstown, to and across the East River, to Astoria, Queens, likely connecting to the BMT Astoria Line. Imagine going from 125th St to, say, 57th St / 7th Ave via Queens :)
--Mark
Thank you. A 125th Street crosstown line would be useful even for those not at 125th Street. It's currently impossible to go east from the West Side IRT anywhere north of 42nd Street. (There's a two-transfer option at 53rd -- 1/9 to 59th, B/D to 7th, E to wherever -- but that's a pain.) Crosstown buses crawl (especially on 125th!) except late at night. A link to all the subway lines in Harlem would relieve loads on the crosstown lines in Midtown.
The line would run across 125th, stopping at Lex-Park (4/5/6/Metro-North), Lenox (2/3), St. Nicholas (A/B/C/D), and Broadway (1/9 via elevators). At Marginal Street, by the river, it would turn north, stopping by Fairway and terminating at Riverbank State Park. Alternatively, it could swing south after Broadway and terminate at Grant's Tomb.
Or it could connect up with the A/B/C/D tracks at St. Nichols (since the line is six tracks wide north of 125th ramps up to it would be easy to install). That would allow any Second Ave. subway line to cross 125th and head either for Upper Manhattan or for the Bronx via the Concourse line -- not a directr route, but it would save $$ on new tunnel construction under the Harlem River.
...thereby not serving anything west of St. Nicholas and missing the connection to the 1/9 entirely.
I don't see the point. If anything, there is too much service on St. Nicholas. The C terminates at 168th and, except rush hours, the B terminates at 145th. There's no need for new service there. There is need for a decent crosstown north of 42nd, one that reaches Broadway.
Agreed - I think you have to know the area to appreciate your point. The the area west of St Nick, all the way west to Riverside drive, is heavily populated and the 1/9, while offering pretty frequent service, really doesn't get the job done (and the local only aspect slows things down). By running the 125th Street line to tie in with the 1/9, you create all sorts of options from people coming from upper Manhattan and parts of the Bronx like Kingsbridge, Marble Hill (I know, Marble Hill is techincally Manhattan) and Riverdale to get to Midtown and the East Side, via the connections across 125 Street.
The 1/9 stop at 137 is always very busy from morning rush till late evening, so many people live on the Broadway "corridor". Also, the tie in to the 1/9 at 125/Bway could be a boon for people headed to and from both Columbia and CCNY.
"Or it could connect up with the A/B/C/D tracks at St. Nichols (since the line is six tracks wide north of 125th ramps up to it would be easy to install). That would allow any Second Ave. subway line to cross 125th and head either for Upper Manhattan or for the Bronx via the Concourse line -- not a directr route, but it would save $$ on new tunnel construction under the Harlem River."
I hate this idea, because there is enough trains running along this route already. Plus, the Broadway Line sure can use a crosstown connection.
N/W Bwy Lines
"Crosstown buses crawl (especially on 125th!) except late at night. A link to all the subway lines in Harlem would relieve loads on the crosstown lines in Midtown."
One of those buses that crawl through 125 is surprisingly the BX 15. And guess what, the BX 15 was a replacement for the Third Avenue El. My plan would be to reconstruct a Third Avenue El in the Bronx. It will replace the Bx 15 and give passengers a faster alternative.
"Lex-Park (4/5/6/Metro-North),"
This is very important for safety reason.
" it would turn north, stopping by Fairway and terminating at Riverbank State Park. Alternatively, it could swing south after Broadway and terminate at Grant's Tomb. "
Going north is definitely a better option, because the passengers are there compare to Grant's Tomb. Plus, there is more space to build a train yard in this area.
N/W Broadway Lines
The Bx15 was there when the el was still around, it was called the Bx29.
But there wasn't a free transfer, right?
N/W Broadway Line
No, there was not. The Bx55 was the one created to replace the el.
"The Bx15 was there when the el was still around, it was called the BX 29"
Yes did a massive re-numbering of all the bronx bus routes in 1984.(WHY???)..the BX15 was Norwood to Co-op City...after the re-numbering it became the BX28.
Very good point about the space to build a train yard. Along 12th Avenue between about 128 and 140, next to the sewerage plant there is a good deal of "open" (at least by Manhattan standards) space. So then here's the plan.
Second ave subway to turn west onto 125th Street, connecting to all the lines (and Metro North) where they cross 125. Continuting on to the area of Riverside Dr and heading north to the yard and Riverbank Park. This could be the "home" yard for the 2nd Avenue line.
Now if we can expand on the other proposal I saw on the board elsewhere about hooking the southern end into the PATH, we could really have something here!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The sewage treatment plant (aka Riverbank State Park) is on the river. Where would you put the yard?
"This could be the "home" yard for the 2nd Avenue line."
It could be the "secondary" yard for the 2nd Avenue Line. The main yard should be in the southern part of the Bronx where B/W railroad use to be. And we can't forget the 180's street yard which serves the 2/5. Maybe some trains can be laid up there too.
That's of course if they decide to recontruct the line which would then connect to the Dyre Avenue route (original route of The B/W railroad). Meanwhile the #5 could operate along the express tracks via White Plains Road with the #2 to 238th Street.
N/W Broadway Lines
"I also would like to say that the idea of a line running east/west under 125 would be an exellent idea. 125 may be one of the busiest cross town streets with traffice usually at a crawl, a subway linking the east side lines and other lines (and providing access to metro north) would be a boon to the area."
I agree with your comment wholeheartedly! Definitely compare to the plan of talking over the Pelham Bay Branch.
Anyway, this could terminate somewhere around Broadway 125th Street, while the other two routes could go to The Bronx. One will run along an elevated roe, while the other route will use the old B/W roe to Dyre Avenue. This will replace the #5 line which currently serves this branch.
N/W Broadway Lines
I didn't realize that one opition being discussed was to run the 2nd Avenue line to the Pelham Bay line. I'm not too familar with areas serviced by the 6. But I cannot believe the need for more service on that already existing line is anywhere near the demand for relief along 125. Maybe with President Clinton moving his office to 125, this proposal may get a hearing. Aside from the lack of movement along the vital 125 corridor, I know the traffic must have a horrendous effect on the air quality, and the asthma rate in Harlen is off the wall, so maybe we can accomplish a variety of positives with our plan.....
The TA considered shaving back the Pelham line's platforms and installing extenders. That way, both "A" and "B" division cars could use the same track.
I think the Idea is ridiculous!
N/W Broadway
Why? It makes use of existing ROW in the Bronx and gives Pelham Bay riders a choice of which venue (Lex vs. 2nd Av) they want to be on. And it provided a plausible way for the TA to increase service to the Bronx. The TA needed to build 2nd Av to IND standards, so this "duel mode" track approach was required.
It's not the only way to do it, obviously, and money ran out long before anything was done, but it's actually a very intelligent proposal.
I see that SUPER EXPRESS LINE in Queens, but what is it, and why is it so special?
-West End Scott
I don't know exactly where it was supposed to run, but it would have provided two tracks of additional capacity all the way across Queens and into Manhattan. The connection that was ultimately built doesn't provide any additional capacity across Queens; it can only be of any use by removing existing services, like the G.
The two tracks were to have been added to LIRR ROW (but for subway service only) to Forest Hills.
Would that super-express been an outdoor line parallel to the LIRR tracks?
I believe so, yes.
You're right - but a local connection was part of the plan (and would have been a good idea anyway).
Uh, yeah. Thanks for the lecture.
The problem over the last 50 years has been that the TA or the MTA has never had a long enough period of financial stability to get delayed maintenance projects done before proceeding with a major new line on Second Ave.
Demands on the IRT and BMT to maintain the nickle fare led to their banruptcy and delayed maintenance and railcar purchases while the city had to put its money before and after WWII into the completion of the IND system. So the money for the first Second Ave. bond issue in 1950 went into funding needed repairs and upgrading equipment that had been put off from the late 1920s onward.
Bond issue No. 2, in 1970, did get work started on the Second Ave. line, but deferred maintenance was already rearing its ugly head on the rail cars and stations of the existing system by the late 1960s, so that when the city's financial shell game collapsed in 1975, the future funding for the Second Ave. line was killed, and funding for the rest of the system was also neglected, leading to the major investments in repairing the existing infrastrcture over the past 15 years.
Once they get all that work done, and if the city's economy stays strong and if the MTA doesn't do some financial sleight-of-hand similar to the Beame Shufle of 1971-74 (the biggest if of all over the next five years), then maybe there will be some funds to start work on the Second Ave. subway. But if any of those things doesn't happen, Second Ave. will be the first place they'll look to tighten their belts.
Once they get all that work done, and if the city's economy stays strong and if the MTA doesn't do some financial sleight-of-hand similar to the Beame Shufle of 1971-74 (the biggest if of all over the next five years), then maybe there will be some funds to start work on the Second Ave. subway. But if any of those things doesn't happen, Second Ave. will be the first place they'll look to tighten their belts.
There one more contingency - if the federal government makes funding available. No funding, no Second Avenue line.
Tat funding is important, but it doesn't have to be in place right away.
What gets me is the way the MTA played the game with the last Second ave subway attempt.To start building at two oppostie ends,[upper Manhattan at 120-110 st and 105-99 sts, then between 9th-2nd/under the Bowery/Canal st/Manhattan Bridge] and hoping that there's enough money to piece them together. Then there was the BEAME SHUFFLE[lets play three card monty,everybody. INSTED OF WHERE'S THE CARD,HE SAID WHERE'S THE MONEY,FIND THE MONEY]Leaving the Second ave subway constuction out of the budget and using the funds to save the 50 cent[HA] fare was stuipid. I hope these new guys can do a better job,and do what needs to be done.
>>>>JUST be PATIENT.<<<
Hmmm, they start in 2004, finish in 2024-2030. I'll be 68-74 years old. At least I'll be alive. I hope.
One idea...if lightning strikes and they start building, how abt opening it in stages, like first the stubway from 6oth Strret to Spanish Harlem they wanted to do in the first place, and later the whole thing?
www.forgotten-ny.com
A subway line, such as the 2nd Av. Subway, does not take 20-26 years to construct and finish, as you have mentioned.
In six years, the majority of the digging for the underground IRT railroad in Manhattan was underway and done in the making.
Consider figures of how long people in the 1800's and early 1900's have built an entire subway system, and not just a segment like the 2nd Av. Subway, to compare how long (be practical) it will take to complete the 2nd Av. line.
Some of the articles are listed on this website, specially compiled onto the www.nycsubway.org domain by David Pirmann.
Railfan Pete.
If you need to build a connector for 7 years, 20 years for a 2nd Ave subway is not a joke. As I said before, if you are determined to do something, everything can be achieved. We(Hong Kong) can build a 19 mile(34km) railway in 6 years, why can't NYC.
Ahh, the old "they built the IRT in four years" argument. It sounds compelling until you consider the conditions in 1900:
1. no minimum wage; workers worked for pennies and if one quit there were 10 more in line to work
2. no saftey regulations, no OSHA, etc. Injuries and accidents occured at a much higher rate than today
3. (and this might be a little naive) construction industry less controlled by certain outside influences requiring tribute (except of course Tammany Hall but the city was paying for the subway in the first place)
4. no previously existing subway lines to dig around and under
5. utility lines less widespread, it was easier to relocate gas, water, sewer, phone, and electric since there wasn't so much of them at the time (together with #4, made cut and cover construction relatively easy)
6. no mandate to maintain service on nearby subway lines 24 hours a day since there was nothing to maintain (this isn't to say that there weren't some interesting engineering challenges on the first subway like underpinning els in certain places and trolley lines in others but under the other conditions, particularly #2 above, it wasn't as much of a concern to do it safely)
One other thing which may have escaped your attention, although you did make reference to some of the historical documents I collected and put on the site, is that the first committee appointed to study the rapid transit issue in New York City was formed in 1866, thirty-four years before anyone built anything, not counting Alfred Ely Beach...
So all things considered, the IRT was not "built" in only four years and under such conditions that would never, ever happen today.
And one other point, you also asked me if I thought the MTA would post "lies" on its web site. No, of course not. I have no doubt they are performing the studies that they posted about on their site, with the intention of finalizing plans for construction of 2nd Avenue. Does that mean it will actually be built? Maybe, maybe not, all we know for sure is that they'll have a bunch of spiffy plans and studies which they can put on the shelf next to the ones from 1970.
-Dave
Ahh, the old "they built the IRT in four years" argument. It sounds compelling until you consider the conditions in 1900:
5. utility lines less widespread, it was easier to relocate gas, water, sewer, phone, and electric since there wasn't so much of them at the time
I have heard that there are considerably fewer utilities under Second Avenue than among any of the other avenues or major streets, this having been done in anticipation of subway construction.
Having worked for Con Ed for many years, I do know that they moved many of their lines out of the way, but I think that was limited to the 3 or 4 segments that actually saw construction in the 70's. I'm not sure of the rest of the route.
And David mentions safety now vs then. One problem Con Ed has was securing the work sites, the local junkies thought the copper from the electrical cable would be good for $$$$ if they could steal it and sell it for scrap, only problem was they they sometimes attempted to cut out sections that were alive (and exposed in the construction trench when the crews were not at work). At least two were found electrocuted.
...except for a major sewer line which runs up Second Avenue to 110th Street before making a sharp turn to the east. Existing sewers are some of the hardest utilities to relocate and work around. This sewer was so important to construction that it showed up in one of the MTA planning study profiles.
As for construction, it's going to be difficult, and it's going to be expensive, but it certainly isn't going to be impossible. Far from it.
MATT-2AV
[re few utilities on Second Avenue] ...except for a major sewer line which runs up Second Avenue to 110th Street before making a sharp turn to the east. Existing sewers are some of the hardest utilities to relocate and work around. This sewer was so important to construction that it showed up in one of the MTA planning study profiles.
As for construction, it's going to be difficult, and it's going to be expensive, but it certainly isn't going to be impossible. Far from it.
It's been said that any construction will be done by means of deep tunnelling rather than cut-and-cover. I don't know how deep this sewer line is, but hopefully the tunnelling will pass beneath it.
...and I wholly agree with the decision to use a deep bore tunnel.
I don't recall how deep the sewer runs either, but it is large and most certainly fragile. Construction will have to be mindful of its presence.
I have never heard anything to indicate that the 2nd Avenue sewer (or any other utilities) would prevent or alter subway construction.
I think you are right; tunnelling will probably pass beneath or around it.
However, won't the station shells require at least some cut and cover excavation? In this instance, minor utilities will have to be relocated, but this is presumably no big deal.
MATT-2AV
Ah, the old David.
Probably you just aren't patient.
If the T/A running the MTA website had any regrets as to start construction at the end of 2004, wouldn't you think that you would read something like "We regret that we can start pouring in cement by late 2004."?
And if construction dare ends between 2024 and 2030, I'll have some people to congratulate, but that won't be for some time now...
Railfan Pete.
Read This pamphlet and you'll see why we don't believe it.
Well it's pointless to continue the argument. So I'll just make a friendly wager.
12/31/2004. If shovels have started digging on 2nd Avenue, I will buy a round of single malt scotch (or some other drink that suits your fancy) at Keen's Chop House for any Subtalker who cares to show up.
No digging? No scotch. Unless Pete or someone else wants to take me up on the wager.
-Dave
12/31/2004. If shovels have started digging on 2nd Avenue, I will buy a round of single malt scotch (or some other drink that suits your fancy) at Keen's Chop House for any Subtalker who cares to show up.
OK, guys. Off we go to Home Depot. I saw a pretty good deal on garden spades there this afternoon and I think I can borrow a jackhammer or two if necessary! Make mine a 33-YO Bunnahabain, if you please :-)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
so Keens is still there? cool. last ate there in maybe 1969. scotch maybe not but some 7star Metaxa see ya there
I am curious, what about the conditions in the late 20s, when IND construction was being performed, and the late 30s and 40s, when they still were working on IND sections. Surely, some workers' compensation laws, OSHA, etc. were in place.
How long did Chrystie Street take? 7 years?
I am curious, what about the conditions in the late 20s, when IND construction was being performed, and the late 30s and 40s, when they still were working on IND sections. Surely, some workers' compensation laws, OSHA, etc. were in place.
Workers' comp has been around for decades, but if I recall correctly OSHA is a creature of the 1960's. Worker safety was not ignored even before OSHA, but there wasn't quite the same level of concern as there is today. A certain number of worker deaths was regarded as more or less inevitable on major projects at least as recently as the construction of the Verrazano Narrows Bridge. Today's greater insistence on safety probably has added some cost to big projects and makes them slower to complete, but I suspect that the difference isn't huge. And this is one situation where the tradeoff may be worth it.
How long did Chrystie Street take? 7 years?
I had thought it was maybe 5 years, but I'm not certain.
According the the Transit Authority's 1957-58 annual report, construction of the Chrystie Street Connection started in November 1957. As we know, the connection opened on November 26, 1967, which means that the project took ten years to complete (granted, there was a strike in there, I think by the signal manufacturer's workers, as well as one at the St. Louis Car Company plant that delayed the R-38s).
David
Planning studies can be very useful but usually get turned into bureucratic perversions. For example, the 2nd Ave study uses 1995 ridership data and predicts only very negligent increases in ridership for the future, which as we all know is simply not the case.
Then there are the planning studies for Metro-North Penn Station services. Right now, I could rent a pair of Arrow MUs from NJ Transit and run half-hourly srvice from New Rochelle to Penn. it would take maybe a month to get the paperwork sorted out, but certainly not 10 years, which it will be by the time they are done.
Good for you!
>>>Click on the 'Planning Studies' button and click on 'Second Avenue Subway' from the 7 topics that are
listed, and voila, learn from it. I did. <<<
They've been studying and planning...
--extensions to southeast and northeast Queens
--extensions to both airports
--a 2nd Avenue subway
since the 1960s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Service on the 2nd Avenue line was reduced substantially yesterday.
The one station on the line, formerly served by three through services, is now served by only a shuttle to the north.
"""Service on the 2nd Avenue line was reduced substantially yesterday.
The one station on the line, formerly served by three through services, is now served by only a shuttle to the north. """
Good point...I had remembered reading somewhere that Grand Street was originally supposed to be part of the Second Avenue subway. They don't seem to be including it in any of the current SAS plans, though...
-West End Scott, yeller dubya train partisan (and what an interesting commute it was today, my first real ride on the Dubya. I might even call it an improvement over the old B train! though those local stops i passed along broadway certainly need a lot of work - i'm hoping all the damage was actually construction)
It is construction. It just looks really bad.
You said the "one station" on the 2nd ave line, did u forget the 2 ave station in the lower east side on Houston St, thats soon will be served by two lines by November.
That's not on the 2nd Avenue line. Grand Street was designed from the start to be enlarged to a four-track station served by the 2nd Avenue line.
The original plans for the 2 ave line was revised during the 40's,with two routes comming off the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges,including the stop at Grand st.When the TA placed the 2ave line on the back burner,it was deamed that the section between the MANHATTAN BRIDGE,WILLIAMSBURG BRIDGE and Houston st could still be used to join the two[BMT/IND]divisions as well as relieve some overcroweding conditions[BMT Broadway line oneway traffic as one example]on somelines. Bacically, it was turned into new routes for the 6th ave line.
I love "studies".
Perhaps the context of "study" is meant in the same way it was when I was in college: Open the books for a half hour, then go back to the dorms and party.
No wonder nothing is getting done.
Yes. It will never be built. Period.
Then stop paying your taxes and move out of the USA because you're probably throwing money away. (Along with the money you're throwing away for other various local, county, state, and federal projects.)
I think it will be built. However, by the time it is, ridership will have increased so much that even a full-length Second Avenue line will be just a drop in the bucket of needed service increases.
And your data is from where?
Arti
I didn't realize I was getting graded on this. People were taking recreational guesses for the purpose of chatting on this board, and I was participating.
Does anyone know what's up with the 2 Nd Avenue Subway?
They're building 2 North Dakota Avenue subways? Where is North Dakota Avenue? I know about Dakota Place in Brooklyn.
We'll have one in time for the ANTI-GRAV R-5500 cars, due to be delivered in the year 2525.
By that time the Second Avenue subway construction will stop and instead the built tunnels will be used to run teleport lines.
What in the world are we talking about in the 2nd Av. Subway title?
About 5-7 messages that I have seen is nothing about 'interstate roads go around Trenton and to Trenton. Odd-even #'s are north, west, east .... . '
And another set is about 'I buy the rotating office chairs for my office. I think they're comfy. You can get it for.. . but the salesperson only gave it to me for 135.... .. '
What in the world are we talking about here?
This is nonsense, preposterous, talk!
No wonder why the 2nd Av. topic had the most responses.
Something was odd about it.
These are the ones that I have checked but I'm sure there are a LOT of others that pertain NOTHING to the 2nd Av. Subway.
??? Railfan Pete.
What in the world are we talking about in the 2nd Av. Subway title?
About 5-7 messages that I have seen is nothing about 'interstate roads go around Trenton and to Trenton. Odd-even #'s are north, west, east .... . '
And another set is about 'I buy the rotating office chairs for my office. I think they're comfy. You can get it for.. . but the salesperson only gave it to me for 135.... .. '
What in the world are we talking about here?
This is nonsense, preposterous, talk!
No wonder why the 2nd Av. topic had the most responses.
Something was odd about it.
These are the ones that I have checked but I'm sure there are a LOT of others that pertain NOTHING to the 2nd Av. Subway.
??? Railfan Pete.
Aha! No one responding. I had better look more articulately into this situation.
Railfan Pete.
The IRT Flushing (7) line still runs with 11-car trainsets.
I counted them on ground level, when a Manhattan bound 7 train was traveling at a moderate speed, to arrive into 61 St- Woodside station.
The last (11th, or the 1st when Flushing bound) Redbird car was #9430, as I remember.
Railfan Pete.
No offense Pete but - your point?
My point, Allan is that everyone on this website SubTalk posting has been growling and complaining about the IRT Flushing (7) line losing their last, or 11th, car and that the 7's will run on 10-car sets. But that is not true, as of yet. I just want to let everyone know.
Railfan Pete.
At the risk of being accused of FLAMING, it would be appreciated if you would preface your remarks or make reference to a previous posting or set of postings so people with know what in world you are talking about.
While I agree that some of the postings/reponses are getting to be like War and Peace (that is way too long), it is part of the nature of this group. If you are not happy with it, then - you fill in the blank.
damn stop fighting. so lets talk on when will the r62a's comes? its taking pretty long
The reason why it's taking so long for the Redbirds to retire out is because the 'authorities' with the Environmental Society of NY and NJ are still planning the designated spot on where the Redbirds W/F cars should be placed 'overboard' into the Atlantic.
The 7 line will be replaced with 'high-technological' trains, which I doubt are the R62A fleet, but you never know.
The W/F R33/36 Redbirds will be role-playing as 'artificial coral reefs' for the fish and wildlife that lives on the bottom of the Atlantic. They can't just dump it anywhere, and be glad with it, as some short and narrow-minded people, known as perdents are used to think in their thinking process.
Well, may the Redbirds live long for the time that they are allotted on the 7.
Let's wait and see.
Railfan Pete.
i hope so to. but they said that the r142's don't work on the 7. well let just wait and see how you said
http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_1854303881_html
I thought the trains wouldn't move with a door ajar? At least, they shouldn't, should they?
It depends on whta type of car it was. If it was one of the older cars patricularly the Redbirds the rubber ends of the doors do not have the new "male/female" extensions and a shoulder strap etc could get caught. Also at the bottom there is a wide rubber piece. A foot could easily get caught there.
Personally, I feel that if someone gets caught in the door it is their own fault. They should be paying attention to their surroundings and their posessions.
But I am not saying that the conductor shouldn't have seen the person and kept the train from moving.
Gosh, you're an empathic soul. When some city guy steps on cow-you-know-what in a pasture and falls in it, I just say "it's your own fault." And I am sure you will never lose your bearings or get a tad confused when you are leaving a vehicle that may be different from what you are accustomed to, or get distracted when you are tired from working or walking all day. (Note: try to remember this discussion in 30 or 40 years from now.)
Many people deliberatly stick their hands, arms, feet, purses, or children into the closing doors of a subway in order to get the doors to "open up again." Some people think they automatically reopen, and others know that it is the conductor that reopens them. In any case, they are fully aware that they are intertwining themselves with a very heavy and powerful vehicle that travels through tight clearences, all in the name of saving between 3 and 10 minutes on their ride home. (And don't even get me started about the times when the PA system clearly announces that there is another train "DIRECTLY BEHIND THIS ONE" and you can even see the headlights but people still crowd onto the train in the station.) If anyone here has actually been caught in a subway door by innocently boarding an uncrowded subway (door area is mostly clear), then I will take this back, but I feel that if you do any of the things i listed in the first sentence, along with standing very close to the door opening with or without your hand or bag sticking out of the car, then you deserve whatever fate befalls you when the conductor closes the subway car doors.
>>> I feel that if you do any of the things i listed in the first sentence, along with standing very close to the door opening with or without your hand or bag sticking out of the car, then you deserve whatever fate befalls you when the conductor closes the subway car doors. <<<
Wow! I used t think they were tough in Texas and Florida, with their high numbers of death sentences, but you seem to be advocating capital punishment for 1st offense Door Holding.
BTW standing close to the door with your hand or bag sticking out of the car rarely results in dragging, even if you are caught by the closing door. :-)
Tom
When my northbound W was sitting at Astoria Boulevard waiting for the N across the platform to go first (this was before I gave up), someone in the first car of the N stuck a bottle(?) in the door as it closed -- I'm not sure why, except to delay service on not one but two trains.
That bastard... messing with me N train?!?!?!
hehehee.
W Bwy Express
Cute, very cute.
>>>Wow! I used t think they were tough in Texas and Florida, with their high numbers of death sentences, but you seem to be advocating capital punishment for 1st offense Door Holding.<<<
Sorry, but the laws of nature don't differentiate between first time offenders and hardened criminals. It's unfortunate, but true.
>>>BTW standing close to the door with your hand or bag sticking out of the car rarely results in dragging, even if you are caught by the closing door. :-)<<<
I didn't give a specific fate, I just said you deserve whatever fate befalls you. I'm sure you can come up with an idea of what could happen if you leave certain things sticking out the doors of a moving subway train. I don't want to get explicitly graphic here. You know, I'm not a mean guy. I just like alternating my posts between serious sounding ones and funny ones. This is a serious sounding one. I'm also being kinda serious about the topic.
DAMN RIGHT!!! It's the person's fault for getting themself stuck in the door. There's always people trying to hold doors for someone else and most of the time, they don't even know them. First of all, an accident like this could happen and second, it holds up trains when someone doesn't let the doors close. There was this time when I was on the N at City Hall and there were these people in the front who were holding the doors and so the conductor couldn't close them. Well the conductor got upset and said over the PA (1) "please stand clear of the closing doors" (2) "please stand clear of the closing doors" (3) "let go of the doors in the front" (4) "Stop holding the doors in the front" (5) "we are being held in the station due to someone holding the doors in the front" and we waited there for a while... now tell me why someone like that doesn't deserve to be dragged by the subway?
"(And don't even get me started about the times when the PA system clearly announces that there is another train "DIRECTLY BEHIND THIS ONE"
Which is often times a lie....
W Bwy Express
Many years ago on the way back from Rockaway, the CC pulled in to Euclid ave and sat there several minutes then all of a sudden the condustor ordered everyone off and while my mom led us off the train, he closed the doors on her while hse was halfway on/off. She didn't "stick her hand out to reopen it" or anything like that, just was getting off per instructions and got caught in between.
Well, that's just not right... that was definetly the conductor's fault... but while there are bad ones, there are also good ones and i think that there are more good than bad because this kind of thing doesn't happen too often.
What I notice from many NYkers, they wait until the last minute to leave a bus or the train. For instance, they might be sitting and when the train opens the door, all in a sudden, they get up to leave. This process interrupts the flow of passengers trying to board the train. If passengers were more considerate, they will get up shortly before the train opens up so passenger flow into the train isn't interrupted.
N Broadway Local
W Broadway Express
Astoria Blvd Station
I try to make my way to the door before the train arrives at my station.
I can't do that if others are obliviously blocking the door.
And then they wonder why I shove them out of the way.
Your right David. Many times people are blocking the doors. But if you kindly say excuse me before the door opens up, they will move out of your way. One thing I notice, if you plan early, you will have better results. But if you do things at the last minute without planning, you are sure to fail.
Stress is one of the worse things people face in this city. To limit stress, we must plan. What I do when leaving the train, I say excuse me constantly (no harshly) to avoid bumping into people. This not only helps me, but other passengers who want to get on the train.
W Broadway Express
I'm sorry, I feel no need to be polite to the inconsiderate boobs who block loading and unloading and slow down service for anyone. I do plan ahead, as I said, by making my way to the door before the train arrives at my station. I'm not going to "excuse me" my way through a crowd by the door since I assume they're also getting off. If, in the end, they're not, then what are they doing by the door? They could at least move to the door on the other side.
Pushing and shoving people out of your way can be extremely hazardous to your health in NYC.
Peace,
ANDEE
It can also be hazardous to their health if I'm in a bad enough mood. Maybe a few will get the point.
Yeah and maybe you will get the point:
A point of a knife in your gut
A gun POINTed in your face, whatever 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Thats my point, it can get pretty dangerous if you don't plan careful. In other words, not everyone is going to brush it off when someone pushes them, regardless of whether they were in the right or wrong. Sorry Daivd, but I have to agree with Andee.
N(Super Local)/W(Super Express) Broadway Lines
Yeah, I've noticed how people randomly look up and run off the train after it's been in the station for 10 seconds or so. And I'm not talking about when an express pulls in. Although today a funny thing happened on the way to 34th. I was on a southbound orange S at 42nd. A B/D pulls up on the sb express tracks. Some people run out of the S to get on the "express." Hah hah. I think we left 42nd and got to 34th before they did. I wonder how they felt when they realized they're express wasn't going past 34th.
This happens too and it sickens me. New Yorkers have such an ignorant mindset when it comes to transportation.
W Bwy Express
If it was a train of R-10s, it's easy to see why. They had the fastest doors in all of New York.
According to The Daily News, it was a rustbird.
Peace,
ANDEE
...and further along the same report,
the Daily News reports that the train
being a Redbird was NOT a factor in the
incident..
Consider the source.
Peace,
ANDEE
After you, Sir...
no after you ..... i insist !! ....lol !!
It really depends on what type of train she was trying to ride on.
I see on the MTA website that the services at 14 St- Union Square station (the place of the incident), are W,L,N,Q,Q,R,4,5, and 6 trains.
All railfans know what car types are used on these lines, but unfortunately, the news article did not mention which train it was that she was stuck on.
The conductors onboard the trains are responsible for checking the length of the train for obstruction before closing doors. It is NOT a good way for them to close the doors while a crowd or a person is trying to get off or board the train.
Railfan Pete.
I just read the Daily News website and it said it happened on a Uptown No.6 Train. I bet it was a Redbird as well.
I just read the Daily News website and it said it happened on a Uptown No.6 Train. I bet it was a Redbird as well.
Today's print version of the Daily News confirms it was a 'bird. It also says that the woman freed herself less than ten feet from the wall at the end of the platform. Way too close for comfort, I'd say!
Wonder if Mark W. was working the line and let his buddy "you know who" into the cab to work the doors while dreaming of Coney Island.
Wall? At 14th St/Union Square IRT N/B, What wall?
Peace,
ANDEE
The big thing in the Daily News story was the woman actually gave a mea culpa and admitted she bore some responsibility for the incident, for trying to rush onto the train when the doors were closing, which resulted in her being pulled down the platform. Very rare nowadays, when it's always supposed to be someone (the conductor) or something (the Redbird) else's fault.
Of course, at this very moment there are hundreds of tort lawyers out there just licking their chops in anticipation of getting her to "revise and extend" her remarks and crank up another lawsuit against the MTA. We'll see how that turns out...
You know, if somebody had filmed that (preferably at multiple camera angles) they could have saved it for use in a thriller movie, like Die Hard Part 16...
Oh Im PRETTY sure it was a Redbird. And at 14St-Union Square: the "S" curve station. The cameras help but not that much.
For all of you amature sleuths on Subtalk and at the risk of ferdy saying I;m mean-spirited again - here's how it happened. It was a redbird. The female customer acknowledged that the doors were closing when she stuck her foot into the doorway. The train moved 2 feet before the conductor pulled the cord. End of story. My source: Not the Daily News...
did that fact that it was a It was a redbird have anything to do with it?
I won't speculate as to cause, especially since there is still an active investigation on-going. The redbirds are not equiped with door obstruction sensing (this has been widely publicized). However there are other systems that are incorporated on all subway cars. We'll wait and see.
>>> The train moved 2 feet before the conductor pulled the cord. <<<
I'm certainly glad the C/R was alert. The next question is will the TA consider him a hero for saving the woman's life and give him an "Attaboy" for being on top of the situation? Or will he get some kind of a black mark because the incident occurred at all?
Tom
Doesn't matter if the train moved 2 feet or 2 car lengths. Conductor does not get a medal from the TA, nor does she get hero status in the next employee newsletter. The TA does not do business like that! The fact of the matter is that it was a customer injury caused by dragging. Doesn't matter that the customer was in the wrong or not. As per TA procedeure, conductor submits to a urine test, sees the TA "doctor", visits Labor Relations, and then has her hours changed for the privelge to work on a 100+ degree platform till all the paperwork is processed.
>>>conductor submits to a urine test, <<<
...AND the T/O
Peace,
ANDEE
Who's Ferdy? I'm confused.
Peace,
ANDEE
How is it physically possible? If the doors don't touch, isn't the train not able to move even if the moterperson puts it in gear?
Most certainly not. Whether the doors are open or not does not stop the T/O from taking off.
Whether the doors are open or not does not stop the T/O from taking off
This statement is incorrect.
As most subtalkers already know, the motorman can not take power
(we'll overlook Tony's automotive vulgarity -- a subway car is
always "in gear") unless all of the side doors are closed and
locked (unless he or she uses a bypass button).
There are a number of possible reasons why indication may be
received even with someone stuck in the doors. Some of it
can be considered a design defect of the redbird doors, or it is
possible that a component was out of adjustment. That will be
determined in the investigation. As an aside, however, the worst
place to try to hold a redbird door open (not that I am advocating
this) is at the bottom.
What happens if the doors open while the train's moving by accident? Does the train automatically stop?
If that were to happen, and it is fairly unlikely, the motorman
would lose indication. The train would not stop but the motors
would no longer be drawing power. The crew would be required
to stop the train and investigate.
I don't know if anything renowned like that will ever happen, but it most certainly won't. The conductor on board uses a key to open and close the doors. After the train serves its passengers and the doors close, the conductor has to rotate the key back to the normal operating position (if it has a name, please let me know!) and pull it back out promptly.
But if the doors open while the train is moving (not near a station platform), and the conductor was drunk (just for a scenario), the fault will go to the conductor and also if anyone was injured by falling out of the train.
Opening the doors of a train while moving will give the engineer a red signal and will most likely pull the emergency brake to stop.
Any questions? Feel free to post them.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
How could opening the doors on the train cause the next signal to turn red?
I meant that the signal in the driver's cab will illuminate, signalling that the doors are open. It's pretty obvious that the engineer won't keep operating the train when the doors have accidently opened, and of course, the signals within the train will react if this ever did happen.
I've been on numerous subway rides, and when conductors close the doors at a station stop, the engineer doesn't always get the 'Go' signal. (Even if the doors close all the way). Therefore, the conductor has to turn the key again to open the doors and close it immediately after, this time hoping that the latches will shut the doors and give the signal to the engineer that they're ready to go.
Railfan Pete.
Isn't it the opposite?
The indication signal, which is LIT telling the T/O he can go, would go OUT (Dark). Your telling me that there is another indication light that tells him the doors came open and the indication light goes OUT (Dark) the Door Open Light comes on??
I also don't think the T/O would pull an emergency brake cord, he can stop the train faster and keep in under control with out letting go of everything and pull a cord??
There's a considerable amount of misinformation here.
The person at the front of the train is called the motorman or
the train operator in the subway system, not an engineer.
You are correct that the conductor must return the master door
control key to the running position before the train operator
will get indication (AND the doors all have to be closed and locked)
If the doors open enroute either because the conductor did so
or someone has tampered with the doors, the train operator will
not receive a red signal, nor will a light come on in the cab.
The train operator's indication light will go DARK and the train
will lose power. The emergency brakes will not apply.
On certain car classes, it is impossible for the conductor to
open the doors unless the train operator first gives permission
by pressing the appropriate door enable button.
"If the doors open enroute either because the conductor did so
or someone has tampered with the doors, the train operator will
not receive a red signal, nor will a light come on in the cab.
The train operator's indication light will go DARK and the train
will lose power..."
Interesting. The safety mechanism here is passive (the indicator light shuts off). This way a burned-out bulb doesn't prevent the motorman from being alerted to a problem while the train is moving.
But why not have the train "dump" (eg emergency brake on) if a problem like this occurred?
Before I became aware of this board and less attuned to what was happening on board the subways, I recall being on an E train in Manhattan when the doors opened while being held in the tunnel. The doors closed after a second or two and the train went on its way. A few stops later a supervisor came through asking if anyone had noticed the doors open but most people had already gotten off by that time. In hindsight I probably should have explained what I saw but I wasn't certain of the ramifications.
>>>>In hindsight I probably should have explained what I saw but I wasn't certain of the ramifications.
The C/R would have been fired.
To make the train go BIE when indication is lost would require
some way to reliably detect when the train is stopped, otherwise
the train would dump at every station.
I'm not sure what RTO SOP is re loss of indication between stations.
Back in the days when that was a much more common problem, I knew
motormen who swore the best procedure was to bring the train to
a quick but not harsh stop, the theory being that if a door really
had opened, you wouldn't want to dump the train and potentially
throw people off balance and out the doorway.
The policy is still the same. Since you don't know if indication loss is due to an open door or not, the train is brought to a stop without throwing people across the car.
Thanks for the RTO FYI c/o CED, TD.
Older cars can move with the doors slightly held open. - just enough for someone to be caught in them...
So does this person who got stuck in the door win today's darwin award?
It's really simple: stay away from the closing doors, period.
Yep. I periodically see the IRT (7) Flushing line trains with a gap between the doors that is wide enough for a 2-3mm obstruction, (such as a jacket sleeve) to fit through.
And the engineer doesn't have a signal to stop the train because of obstruction.
But in case of emergency, there's no playing around or horse play. Someone caring enough or someone who has observed an incident should pull the emergency brake if they're caught outisde being dragged, and the conductor of the T/A also, they check for any obstructions until the train has left the platform, then he rolls his window back up.
This goes especially for the R142A and the R142 car types which will eventually fill up all of the spots on the #2 - 7th Av. Exp. and the #6 - Pelham (Lex Av.) Local line, since their doors are electronically operated, and it is literally impossible to force the doors open when they're closing.
Passengers & the conductor (when closing the doors) must be extremely careful when boarding or discharging trains on the R142 type, esp. when it's crowded.
~Have to get some sleep... Hope you are patient for the end-of-2004 construction of the 2nd Av. Subway! (attn: David Pirmann)~
Railfan Pete.
Oh god damn, what a wuss...OOO wow foot caught, if it was a quarter of the foot, deal with it, have people pull the doors, it doesn't deserve it's own news story...Whole foot can be a bit scary :-)
MESSAGE TO ALL SELFISH @$$ES...We all hate those who are the last on the crowded train and INSIST that they get on...Especially women, they really annoy me, its like the world is going to blow up if they dont get on the train. Mean while their fat butt is rubbing against my leg and I'm almost squashed to death...WAIT FOR THE NEXT TRAIN IF IT IS CROWDED! I cannot stress the importance of this for your safety and other commuters sanity...Thank you
AMEN! It's even worse when the woman's fat butt is sticking out the door and the conductor says "Please release the doors at the front of the train" but the woman doesn't move because either she thinks her butt cleared the doorway or she can't move because the car was already full! [NOTE: I don't want to offend anyone here over this silly issue so let me say that men have fat butts also and can and do hold up trains in a similar manner.]
To wait for the next train if the one in the station is crowded takes common sense, which is in short supply to a lot of people riding the subway. Terminal shortsightedness is their disease, and there is no cure. When they were offered brains, it sounded like pains, so they asked for very few.
Two comments:
1) Almost all {if not all} car types have to be reopened by the conductor. They are not elevator doors. I'm not sure about the R110/R142/R143, however.
2) I have to commend the conductor. I'll admit to the fact that he/she shouldn't have allowed the train to move by warning the T/O, but let's look at what he/she did perfectly according to code. Following the rules, he/she was clearly monitoring the platform after the train took off for several car lengths like they are supposed to. And they were on top of things enough to notice the problem. Some conductors just wave to the people on the platform {a little sarcasm but sometimes they do actually waste time doing that if they see somebody they know}.
The R-142 doors reverse direction for 1 inch and tries to close again if they encounter an obstacle, and repeat this three times. After the third time, they don't move in either direction. Conductor hits recycle and that door only reopens fully and then closes (as opposed to opening the entire front half of the train).
The R-142 I rode this afternoon had one bouncy door. Two or three times, as soon as the doors closed, one door leaf popped open an inch before closing for good.
BTW, the C/R didn't bother making announcements at affected stations (I don't know about Atlantic since I got on there, but there was no mention of the new offerings at 14th or 42nd.)
The evening rush hours is coming now. And the morning rush hours is gone. Is there anyone willing to conclude how it is this morning? I think subtalkers in elsewhere would like to know how it is look like.
Fortunatly, I ride the IRT. My friend told me the uptown D had the usual amount of riders.
I'd say it went a lot better than I expected. There were a lot of confused people, but they didn't seem to be getting militant. (I was decked out in full riot gear just in case. I even carried a large bag with me in anticipation of widespread looting. I wanted to score a video camera, among other items.) I hoped off my Qexp (northbound) at Canal and observed the platform until the next Qexp (northbound) came in. A lot of people had questions and asked the platform conductors. Two of the MTA people even noticed that the sign at the north end of the northbound Canal St bridge platform was misleading, in that it had an arrow pointing to the exit for "Q&W downtown" but the N&R circles were away from there and placed next to the EXIT word so people were like "Well how do I get to the N&R?" I'm sure most of us know that that means you exit the room right there and follow the rest of the signs to get to the N&R, but for someone who never had to follow/read a subway sign in their life (or at least the last 30 years), they probably would have felt better if they saw an arrow pointing them to the N&R. Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say. Besides that, there were plenty of maps for the taking so every MannyB crosser should have one by now.
One delay stemmed from some kind of a signal problem at the peak of the bridge. My Qexp stopped at a red signal, and couldn't move again until a signalman put a hook over the stop cock and we went through the red signal.
Also, in the afternoon, I again rode the railfan window of a slant on the Qexp (brooklyn bound). As we came into 34th, people looked to see what subway line this was and then turned away in digust. Multiple people. Well, what subway line were they looking for or expecting? There was a W right in front of us, and a Qloc right behind us. And I believe the signs on the platform at 34th were correct in stating which subway routes arrived at the local and express platforms.
Maybe they were looking for a B or a D.
I quickly learned how to identify the diamond-Q from a distance: it's the one with the invisible front route marker.
(If all of the side destination signs could be replaced, even though they're not backlit, why couldn't the front route signs be replaced too?)
Huh? Wouldn't they be looking for the B/D at the IND station, not the BMT station?
And yeah, those diamond Q signs are pretty lousy. So they are just stickers right on the outside of the glass?
They're stickers on top of some other letter on the rollsign. This technique (as shown) only works on side rollsigns, not backlit front rollsigns. The MTA will either fix this or swap the local and express fleets.
A lot of people know that B and D service is split but don't know the new names. I suppose they'd prefer the flip the way it was handled last time.
Coming home from work today I decided to try the new W express in Queens, so I boarded R-68A 5160 at Lexington at around 1510. The express run in Queens was wonderful. The R-68A was smooth and silent and pretty quick. It reminded me of MNRR's M-1s, only without the speed.
In the front of the train were two rail buffs talking. I didn't introduce myself, being somewhat shy (today), but I was the kid in the blue T-shirt in the forward-facing seat on the left. Hi!
Dan
Could it have been I that you saw? I am the somewhat older of the two, with camera bag. I boarded at 57th at about 3p, after a lengthy delay in service; I nearly gave up. I was sitting in the front seat until Queens Plz, when they announced we were going exp. I was shocked that we actually skipped 42 street due that delay! I agree the 68A was nice riding on that rather smoothe track. The W: a welcome addition to the lines we have.
Joe C.
Certainly could have been. Nice to meet you! (=
Dan
I ran intop Railfan Pete tomday, on my way home from Astroa. I saw him get on at I think it was 36ave. You can always tell who is a rail fan and who just an out of towner getting a pitcher.
Robert
I ran into Railfan Pete today, on my way home from Astroa. I saw him get on at I think it was 36ave. You can always tell who is a rail fan and who just an out of towner getting a pitcher.
Robert
Had a good trip on the W today. The express dash on Broadway was great. I just wish i knew how fast we were going. R68s aren't so slow afterall. BTW also caught a few R142(A)s today. The new Q and W transfers aren't even installed yet. This probably can cause confusions also.
Oh, they are running R-68s on the W? They're the best 75 footers, although they still don't hold a candle in the speed department to the 60 footers. At least, they give the allusion of going slower.
The W runs R68A's.
And as far as the "speed department" goes, I have no idea as to where all you guys get your info from. IMO, 90% of all cars in all car classes have s*it speed. Once in a while (again in all car classes), you get a little mini-rocket.
I'd really like to know: What do you consider s*it speed and what do you consider a little mini-rocket? And are you refering to top speed or acceleration? And if you're refering to top speed, aren't there speed limits anyhow? (I saw what i believe are 35mph speed limit signs on the broadway express). And if you're refering to acceleration, can't you just throw the selector (or whatever the "gas pedal" is called) a few more notches toward the fast setting to make the train accelerate faster? And even if the train accelerates faster (either due to it being a mini-rocket or you moving the accelerator farther forward) won't you just toss the passengers around a lot more than usual? Please don't view this as a negative or inflammatory post. I really do want to know your honest answers to these questions :) Thanks!
Here is the sad truth:
3/4 of the time, when you leave the station, trains are accelerating at the fastest possible rate for their class. There are only three "notches" that lead to movement: switching, series, and parallel. And, most T/Os when leaving the station are in parallel (unless you get the weirdo on the E line that drives the whole route in series). T/Os do not accelerate by gradually moving the controller, they throw in to its highest setting from a dead stop and wait for it to increase speed.
Now I'm learning something. So that's why I always hear the T/O slide through a few notches when he starts up. So can you explain to me what switching, series, and parallel are?
Switching, series and parallel are the only three available speeds on the master controller (gas pedal). Switching (one point of power) is to be used for slow moves only (i.e. adding or cutting or for rolling tests) and is not a running position. Series (two points) attains a maximum speed on level ground of 18 mph. Parallel (three points) is full power. The master controller cannot go past parallel.
As far as your prior post BM which was:
>>>>>>>>>I'd really like to know: What do you consider s*it speed and what do you consider a little mini-rocket? And are you refering to top speed or acceleration? And if you're refering to top speed, aren't there speed limits anyhow? (I saw what i believe are 35mph speed limit signs on the broadway express). And if you're refering to acceleration, can't you just throw the selector (or whatever the "gas pedal" is called) a few more notches toward the fast setting to make the train accelerate faster? And even if the train accelerates faster (either due to it being a mini-rocket or you moving the accelerator farther forward) won't you just toss the passengers around a lot more than usual?
As far as acceleration goes, from a standing start nothing goes faster than an R68 or R68A. The instant you put the controller in a power position, it takes off. Also, the power available in the switching position is very powerful, so you have to be careful if you're making an add or performing a task which requires a very slow speed. As far as the "s*it speed and mini-rocket" goes, I'm referring to the top speed of a train on track with no speed limits and not to acceleration. And you really can't toss the passengers around unless you are braking the train unevenly, or you're taking a turn or switch way past the posted speed limit which is a big no-no.
As far as the posted speed signs on the Broadway Express, you also have a 20 mph sign on 4 track (uptown exp) leaving 8 Street and one on the same track entering 34 Street, and a 15 mph sign on 3 track (downtown exp) entering Times Square.
Thanks for all that info!
>>>As far as the "s*it speed and mini-rocket" goes, I'm referring to the top speed of a train on track with no speed limits and not to[p] acceleration.<<<
What are some examples of track with no speed limit?
>>>>>What are some examples of track with no speed limit?
Any mainline track without a posted speed sign, or after passing a section of track with a restriction and reaching the green R sign (R= resume speed).
If one "weirdo" on the E operates the whole route in series, he will have the entire Queens IND tied up and be at least 15 minutes late at both ends of the line for all his trips. If that does indeed happen, his assigned TSS would be reinstructing that person about it. Since a new pick has gone into effect, perhaps that train operator is no longer on the E........... P.S.: I don't think you are talking about me! I may not be the fastest T/O in the TA, but I certainly never tied up the whole line due to not operating fast enough! I did tie it up a few times in my 26 months there due to 3 BIE's in which I had to walk around the train, a few sick customers waiting for EMS, and one assault in which a passenger in the last car was cut up by a broken bottle for resisting a robbery attempt.
I know what you look like, it definitely ain't you. This guy also likes to slam on the brakes on the way up from the 53st tube.
I hope he has the Franklin Shuttle now. He must have transferred from A division or something.
But A division is fast.
This morning i got the N from astoria @ 36th av - slightly smaller than usual crowd for 9am...
coming home was almost comical. right around 5 i grabbed a W, which was nearly empty it's entire ride to queens - where it went LOCAL to ditmars. apparently there was a delay in N's, so they sent the W local. Even then the train was near empty. went to 30th av (where a W caught up with us on the exp track), did some shopping, got back on for the ride to 36th. a W ran through EXPRESS on the local track, heading south, followed by another W which was going local.
Spotted at least 2 people videotaping - one at 39th av, and one at broadway - anyone from here? it was around 5:30...
If the W is always like that, i might backtrack to astoria blvd in the mornings just to ride it so i can lay out and nap ! hehe!
THere seemed to be more W's than N's that's for sure.
Yes. many, many more it seemed during the pm rush, at least.
It figure....
N Broadway Local
Spotted at least 2 people videotaping - one at 39th av, and one at broadway - anyone from here? it was around 5:30...
That was me, most likely. I was on the Manhattan-bound Broadway platform around 5:30 or so, and the Astoria-bound 39th / Beebe platform at around 6:00 or so.
--Mark
Here's a map problem which may have been mentioned. Canal street is set up so it looks like on stop. I wonder how many people will wait on the N/R platforms for the Q. On the real old subway maps, they used to have two seperate Canal Streets, one on the main line, and one on tlhe bridge approach. They really rushed this map. Check here.
They did that a lot. At the West 8 St. NY Aquarium station they didn't even indicate an F stop there.
The F stops on mine...
I think you're reading the small letters under the Station Name. Queens Blvd was talking about the alignment of colored lines, how the F line totally misses the dot for West 8.
-West End Scott, Dubya rider
So that makes three errors on the new map:
1. Transfer shown between #7 Train and E/F/G Trains at 23rd Street - Court Square when in fact none exists.
2. M Train listed as going to Brooklyn during rush hours only, when in fact it goes to Brooklyn middays, too.
3. Improperly-placed dot at West 8th Street seeming to indicate that the F Train does not stop there, when in fact it does.
Did I miss any? (I'm not counting the Canal Street problem because it is not really an error, since it is the same station with the same name, just a different platform.)
- Lyle Goldman
Plus the phantom V train at Roosevelt Avenue.
Seth
Plus the phantom V train at Roosevelt Avenue.
Seth
So that makes four errors on the new map:
1. Transfer shown between #7 Train and E/F/G Trains at 23rd Street - Court Square when in fact none exists.
2. M Train listed as going to Brooklyn during rush hours only, when in fact it goes to Brooklyn middays, too.
3. Improperly-placed dot at West 8th Street seeming to indicate that the F Train does not stop there, when in fact it does.
4. "V" train instead of G Train shown as stopping at Roosevelt Avenue.
Sorry I forgot about that last one!
- Lyle Goldman
The "M-train" error isn't really an error because whe the July 2001 map was drawn, the M-train was to be operating as it is indicated on the map. Also don't forget the "non-bold Q" at Times Square. That was mentioned by someone a little while ago.
The Astoria express stops are shown as local stops (black dots rather than white dots).
Are you compiling this list for your own edification or to forward to someone who can actually correct the errors in the next edition?
57/7 is also shown as local.
MTA doesn't have any email addresses -- which gives one the sneaking suspicion that they don't want to hear suggestions from their customers.
I was considering sending it to someone, but to whom?
- Lyle Goldman
Don't forget the Roosevelt Avenue stop of the V train. The new map shows the V stopping at Roosevelt Ave already (but no place else).
The old map was a better map.
The new timetables reflecting the expanded service to/from 9th Avenue and Bay parkway are still not found on the TA's web site.
They still have the train pre bridge flip, when you pull the Adobe file.
I want to see it also! And I can't beleave they forgot the (M) also. They got the (Q)Local, Express,(W),(B),(D), 6 Ave SHUTTLE,and Grand St SHUTTLE up on the website. The (M) should be on the Website as well.
Oh Well! :(
>>>>>>>>And I can't beleave they forgot the (M) also
GEEZ!! They just wrote up the supplement about 5 days ago!! It's going to take time to re-do the M schedule.
If it's not the schedules, it's the new maps, or it's the car lists.
Mr. Pirmann should rename the board "ImpatientTalk".
And of course, since it is a supplement to the M service, there is a good chance it will never make it to the website.
A supplement that is supposed to last until at least 2004 should not be put on the TA website?
IGSI, let me say it like this:
NO signage on the M has been changed. All signs still say M to Bklyn Rush hours only.
Rush hours (I'm talking like 6:30pm) the M trains still read 9th avenue Brooklyn or 9th av/West End Line. It was terrible. Not just one train. The almost all M trains had this incorrect signage. (only saw three of them though...)
I was referring to the TA's web site, NOT the station signs or the MU signs.
Of course I don't expect the station signs to be changed overnight, although it is certainly within the TA's power and ability to do so.
I DO expect the website to reflect these changes in a day or two.
By its very nature, a supplement CANNOT last for 3 years. In theory, it is not allowed to last for more than 30 days before there is either a re-pick of jobs on the line or a new supplement is put into effect. In reality, Transit gets around this by claiming that it is not running for 30 days, since it does not run on the weekend; ie it only runs 5 days. The end result is this: for this current RTO pick (now until mid-November), do NOT expect to see an updated M schedule on the MTA website. IF the schedule is changed for November, then and only then would I expect an update on their site
For the sake of comparison, this schedule change on the M is similar to schedule changes on the 2 line when it runs around the Ferry loop to Lexington Ave: you can't get the adjusted schedule.
This does not preclude a friendly from posting this info here, anyway.
Don't count on it. Too much typing.
The change wasn't even announced until a few days ago. Give them time to come up with a schedule and be glad there's service at all in the interim.
It's very simple to update a schedule. When some parts of the TA website list C trains going to the Bronx and Brooklyn Bus Service not reflecting changes in routes made almost a year ago, the time factor is a poor excuse for failing to keep customers informed. How much time is needed? A day? A week? A month?
As far as service goes, it is the least they could do. Even with the general increase of users, on lines with additional capacity, the service increases have not nearly matched the increased passenger loads.
Don't award any medals to the TA for doing something that should have been planned at the inception of future service disruption notification. It took the Gov. Pataki to finally intercede to push for the increased service, just as was done for the Queens Blvd. IND.
If the TA wants to become more customer service oriented, as Mr. Reuter is quoted as saying, they can start by adhering to the customer's wishes, at the first request, not the 10,000th.
I agree that the TA web site is poorly maintained.
But, if there is any sort of schedule for the midday M yet, it's not in a form usable by the public. I can't fault the web site for not having posted something that doesn't exist yet.
If the extended M service is operating, which it is, a schedule must have been drawn up, period. It takes very little effort to place it and format it into the web site for the users' needs. For the TA not to have done this shows not only poor planning, but poor judgment.
A schedule has been drawn up.
It may be only experimental, subject to change. And, whatever it is, it's not in nice printable form.
Even if it is subject to change, which I doubt since the TA has already agreed to the times and days of operation, even a typed-in basic no frills schedule without the frilly graphics and fonts would suffice. Again, it is easily installed into the web site.
I agree that something would be nice, but I don't see this as a very high priority compared to, e.g., correcting all the signs in the stations and making clear announcements.
Plus, who besides us even GOES to the MTA website looking for SUBWAY SCHEDULES! I doubt most people even KNOW the subways run on a schedule! Most people just received the "Manhattan Bridge Service Changes" brochure and the new map for the first time today. They defintely were not lost and confused today because the updated M-train schedule PDF file was not posted on the website. Face it, those schedules on the website are for PR and marketing purposes. They don't have to be there, and they aren't needed. They are just a luxury and I'm grateful that they are available. (I have used them to plan early morning trips from Brooklyn to World Trade Center [with a transfer at DeKalb between the train that was a D and an N/R] to catch a PATH train to be at Newport for 5:45am). I hope the MTA webmasters are busy doing more important things than converting "a schedule that doesn't exist yet" into Adobe Acrobat PDF format and placing it on the website. Maybe if the MTA has some summer interns sitting around with nothing to do then they could update the site, but if not, I have no problem. I'm sure the site will be updated in due time, so just be patient. The MTA doesn't have to operate at lightening quick speeds just because it has the website. Maybe they'd be better off getting rid of the website to concentrate on more important things like the 2nd Ave Subway. (although I'd miss the online G.O. listings :)
The people who go to the website are people who want a timetable, and do not want to send in a self addressed stamped envelope to the TA, then wait for another 2 weeks to get it back to them.
The timetables are for the straphangers who want to know WHEN a train is due at their station, and how long it will take them to get to where they are going. That isn't so much to ask in the year 2001.
As far as the "MTA webmasters" are concerned, they should be putting MORE effort into their site, since some parts of it, as I said before, reflect C trains going into the Bronx and Bus Maps showing incorrect routings. But of course, this is not an "important thing".
Finally, if you think they will concentrate on the Second Avenue Subway more since they would not have to deal with a website, then you haven't lived in the City for too long.
The G still goes to 179 at night, don't get me started on the bus transfer list...
See???
>>>>>>>The G still goes to 179 at night
Absolutely not. The G at night terminates at Court Square.
But the web site told me it does! :·)
They forgot to eliminate the station information. The G hasn't run to 179 Street since around 1997.
Peggy just passed along this info:
I finally found out what was behind the closed stairway at the extreme North end of both platforms--they lead to a mezzanine and another crossover. The stair
iway on the South ferry bound platform was open and I got a peak without entering. Careful observation from the platform reveals the crossover. While I have no confirmation, I believe this too was a casualty of the IND and probably also had elevators.
When a tour is scheduled I will show you to observation point for this closed area.
That north crossover was active as late as the early 70's ... probably was closed because of crime concerns [WARNING! SPECULATION]
If you are talking about the #1 line station at 168 and not the IND station, that stairway at the north end is for a long disused tower. Maybe somebody knows when it was closed.
A tower for what? No switches in the area.
There is a switch just north of the station plus the one north of Dyckman and north of 145
much like the stairs at the southern end of 149-GC
on the 2/5 lines... seem to link to a closed crossover
which appears more like a storage area on the uptown
side of the way..
149/GC had double decker elevators and a crossover there.
I recall the crossover and the elevators, would Peggy know when was the last time the elevators were used in service? The crossover has been unused for a certain number of years.
-Stef
You DO know I was referring to the staircase(s) at the
T/O end of the downtown platform... double decker elevators
couldn't go up more but a few feet in that slot... the overpass
is quite visible (even moreso with the lighting fixtures added)
:>
149/GC had double decker elevators and a crossover there.
Double-decker elevators?
Yes and in plain sight! Go to the South end of the uptown(241-bound) platform and you'll see a dark area behind locked gates--they are in this area. They lead to a mezzanine, now removed, above the 4 line. The crossover was closed due to safety concerns (throwing objects at trains) SOURCE:Joe Cunningham.
Now we go to opinion- there are other open crossovers remaining such as 168 on the 1. I think there must habve also been crime concerns or 168 and others would have been enclosed.
IMO, the crossovers at 149-GC serve ill purpose due
to their close proximity to the tunnel entrances
(& if objects were thrown, it would give t/o little
or no time to react/brake)
Whereas, at 168 and 181 on the 1 line, the crossovers
are placed more along the center regions of the platform
(& if objects were thrown, it would give t/o a distance
with which to react/brake)
Doesn't really matter. Tunnels are close at 168 st. coming northbound. Person jumped one time at 181 st. Dead.
Two months ago, I caught an N train downtown from 42nd st. The N and R were running express at this time. Anyways, there's this older guy talking to this much younger lady. He's talking about how they're doing this work on the local tracks now because they are eventually going to have to open up the broadway express tracks for Brooklyn south trains. He basically goes through the whole manhattan bridge thing with his companion.
Cut to today.
I'm waiting for A "Q" train at DeKalb. I see this older guy and this lady waiting for a train too (At this point I wasn't paying attention). A (Q) train pulls in, but they don't board it. I figured they still thought the "D" was running, and they were waiting for it. I was waiting for a slant to peer at the trackage before the manhattan bridge (that's all slants are good for, you'll see why in a sec..). Then, a slant shows up But, the man and woman get the railfan window. So I sat down on those bum benches.(see?!?) Anyway, it was then that I realized that it was THE SAME TWO PEOPLE I SAW 2 MONTHS AGO ON THE N!!!!! (you probably figured that out anyways.) They moved out of the window at Canal St, (actually a little afterward), but I didn't get up. They got off at 34th...
Was that anyone here on this board (the old man or the younger woman). If it was, you probably saw me today. I was the kid in the 'camoflauge' blue Brooklyn 'fisherman's' hat with a "Tar Heels" T shirt on.
I wasn't the man or the woman, but I noticed a guy with a large, mounted camera taking pictures of Coney-bound W/M trains as I got off this afternoon at my stop at 50th Street in B'klyn.
Thought it might have been another Subtalker.
-West End Scott
A guy dressed in a white dress shirt and dress pants rode my brooklyn bound afternoon rush hour Qexp between Canal St and Atlantic Ave. He wasn't a SubTalker, but I think he was a "high-up" in the MTA. He stood next to me at the railfan window and cursed at some signals. When we got onto the bridge, he used his very loud Nextel Direct Connect phone to take a call from "Dennis" up in Astoria. He asked Dennis to find out how many of his W trains arived at Astoria between 4pm and 6:30pm. ASAP. Dennis replied that there were some signal problems that delayed the W. The MTA man, then, rather annoyed, said that "that is why I want to know how many W's arrived at Astoria!" So, was anyone else from here on that train and in the first car and have any idea what I'm talking about or have an idea as to who the MTA guy might have been?
He might have been the Superintendent of the "W" line.
Someone asked if there was a lot of confusion today on the trains in NYC.
To put it simply, not more than could be reasonably expected.
Most people were generally intelligent. For instance, one woman asked the platform conductor: "Is this the train that makes all former D stops?". She knew what she was asking. People who had no clue whatsoever even knew to actually ASK. This one kid asked the platform conductor a question at 42nd st, then got off at 34th and asked where to find the "D" train. At Canal, I saw some people figuring out the problem themselves with a map and the 'route changes' brochure. All the people I saw at DeKalb and 57/7th generally had some idea of where they were going.
For those people who are just 'dumb blokes', they were lost, but they get lost anyways....
In conclusion: It wasn't a bad day.
Of course, tomorrows Daily News will probably announce the following:
MASS CONFUSION IN THE SUBWAYS!!!! THOUSANDS STRANDED FOR DAYS!!!!
The Daily News seems to think that it's the TA's fault that the 6th av tracks are closed...
"The Daily News seems to think that it's the TA's fault that the 6th av tracks are closed..."
And as of last night, at least, WCBS/880AM's traffic reporter was under the impression (several times!) that the Grand Street station is CLOSED.
In my (unofficial) observations during this first weekday of the new service plan, I found that most of the hysteria was in the mind of the media (and in some cases it appears that the media was TRYING TO CREATE the hysteria in order to justify the headlines -- called "managed news."
David
New Yorkers are pretty stubborn.
But they're also very adaptable.
So first day confusion is not surprising, and by next week everyone (except us rail fans) will forget there ever was a north side service. I predict that whenever both sides open (whether 2004 or beyond...) there will be complaints for some reason (too confusing??!!).
With the proliferation of media outlets (print, radio, TV, cable, Internet...), all of them are competing for not-enough-news and not-enough-readers/viewers/listeners/clickers. It's no surprise hysteria-generation was in full force.
I'll be riding the Q-'n'-W this Wednesday PM, after my AE ride down from Boston :-)
I'll be riding the Q-'n'-W this Wednesday PM, after my AE ride down from Boston :-)
Hi Todd,
Any idea as to where or when? I'll be doing my first trip on the South Side this afternoon as well, and would like to say hi if the timing's good.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
I was at 34th & 6th this morning from 6 AM to 9:30 AM - fielding questions and guiding the lost. All-in all, the first rush hour went better than expected. Most people were not lost - just not sure. Once re-assured, they went on their way. There were 3 notable items that might need to be addressed.
B's were turning on 3 track while the D's were turning on 4 track. Since 4 track is uptown, the D's were leaving full while the B's were leaving empty because people had to go upstairs to cross over.
The 21st Street shuttle, at 6-cars, is too short. Too many people running for the short trains on crowded platform. I guess that people will get used to it quickly though.
Crowds jumping from the D to the F and vice-versa were causing door related delays. More platform conductors will likely be needed. Of course the Japanese KITA method might be needed.
One tip: If you are going uptown and transferring to the B or D from the F or S - do it at 42nd St. or 47-50th St. This way you can access the B or D from the same platform.
BTW: I was photographed by the Post, News and Newsday this AM. So much for maintaining my secret identity...
>>B's were turning on 3 track while the D's were turning on 4 track. Since 4 track is uptown, the D's were leaving full while the B's were leaving empty because people had to go upstairs to cross over.<<
Not really any remedy for that, is there? We could rebuild 34th so that it's an Island platform for express trains. No? Oh well, it was a suggestion...
>>Crowds jumping from the D to the F and vice-versa were causing door related delays. More platform conductors will likely be needed. Of course the Japanese KITA method might be needed.<<
Work related deaths would soar if the KITA method were used.
>>B's were turning on 3 track while the D's were turning on 4 track. Since 4 track is uptown, the D's were leaving full while the B's were leaving empty because people had to go upstairs to cross over.<<
Yeah i felt smart after figuring that out this morning as i transferred from the W....caught an almost completely empty D train uptown just by going to the "downtown" platform...it left before the B on the "uptown" track did, too..
-West End Scott - it's all about the Dubya
>>it's all about the Dubya<<
Sorry 'lil buddy, but the A and F are the best lines. The Culver hasn't been pissed off by that evil bridge for almost half a century, and the A, well, is the A (needless to say, these are and always will be my favorite lines.)
When the F runs express in Brooklyn (Church St thru Prospect Park to 7th Ave, over Gowanus to Bergen St), then it'll be my fave too. Of course by then I'll have moved to Queens or something...
One partial remedy would be to install electronic signs above each staircase, escalator, and ramp to the IND platforms (I know there are a lot, but one or two signs just aren't enough), controlled by the tower, indicating when the next B and next D will be leaving and which platforms they'll be running from.
I had a nice ride on a nearly empty B this afternoon. The D on the other track, which left after us, was already more crowded.
There is a new electronic sign reading (I think) "Next Express Uptown" with arrows at the 32nd Street end.
It was pointing both ways when I saw it. How helpful. And it's only by one of the many staircases/ramps/escalators.
It's at the junction of all the ramps (so anyone within the ramp system would pass it eventually), plus at the top of the ramp closest the N/R transfer (points to the escalator for uptown and ramp for downtown), and a third somewhere in the 32nd st. end.
Yeah, I saw the signs and the arrow was only pointing one-way, not both ways at the same time.
Okay, I lied. I saw the sign with one arrow. I also saw the sign with two arrows, pointing both ways.
A simple "NEXT B DEPARTS IN 3 MINUTES / NEXT D DEPARTS IN 7 MINUTES" display, with the B and D platforms signed clearly, would be much more useful, IMO.
A simple "NEXT B DEPARTS IN 3 MINUTES / NEXT D DEPARTS IN 7 MINUTES" display,
That would be real-time train departure information in the NYC subway. We can't have that. =)
The C/R on the Grand Street shuttle yesterday afternoon announced when he was scheduled to depart. I was most pleased.
"Yeah, I saw the signs and the arrow was only pointing one-way, not both ways at the same time."
I swa two different electric signs. one was pointing only to the D track, and the other was pointing to both. I did not see either sign change.
Elias
"I had a nice ride on a nearly empty B this afternoon. The D on the other track, which left after us, was already more crowded."
It really matters not. They will very QUICKLY find out where the D and the B trains are. Then they will just go to the one that they want.
Elias
Heh. Well, since a lot of the truly confused will be arriving by staircase, perhaps some SIGNS:
<-D B->
might be in order up above the platforms ...
"Not really any remedy for that, is there? We could rebuild 34th so that it's an Island platform for express trains. No? Oh well, it was a suggestion... "
I was there too, a better suggestion is to empty the trains on the Southbound platform, then pull them out of the station and return them to the northbound tracks.
One D train did come in on that track and was pulled south, and did in fact carry passengers to W 4th street (which does seem to be needed) Perhaps the T/O punched the wrong button when he entered the station and so was sent around that way. Or it may have just been a flex to accomodate some congestion. There was congestion when I first arrived at 34th Street.
Elias
You mean the dash was still used? There's hope. :-)
They should send trains through the dash to W4th just for the fun of it.
That won't work. The (S) from Broadway-Lafayette comes into West 4th Street on the uptown express track, then switches to the local track after leaving the station. Running trains "just for the fun of it" would interfere with regular operations.
There was only one such train while I was watching... a D had come in where the planned to lauch the B, so it seems that either a TO pushed the wrong button, or they diverted him to this side to relive congestion. Perhaps he was running on the wrong interval.
Elias
I rode through it in '87 when there was some sort of delay, so you will see passenger trains going through there on occasions.
And once again, we must have crossed paths without being able to recognize each other. I was at 34St from about 6:15 until 7:03 when I left with an uptown B. Upon returning to 34 St at 9:00ish, I was re-routed down the local track in service to W.4 St, turned and sent light to 59 St. It made everyone's day when a southbound B arrived at W.4 St, and then wouldn't go any farther.
Then you had to see me with the D line Supt. and deputy & TSS.
I wan also with the CTO and ACTO for a bit.
Sorry. the only one of those people I would actually recognize on sight would be Mr. Ford, and I didn't see him.
> The 21st Street shuttle, at 6-cars, is too short.
Still better than the four-car trains they used in the late 80s.
A question:
Are the 63rd Street shuttles too short in that there isn't room for any more passengers/customers, or are they too short only in that people have to run for them?
David
They're too short in that people have to run for them, from my observation.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's easily corrected, should a decision be made to do it, by running longer trains. An additional eight R-32s should be easy enough to scrape up to extend the four six-car trains to eight cars. It should be remembered, however, that
a) People will get used to the shorter trains in a few days and congregate in the middle of the platforms (and by the accounts I have heard overcrowding is not a problem on the shuttle anyway), and
b) The 63rd Street Shuttle is scheduled to go away in November, when the V train starts.
David
The only thing I really noticed about the service changes today (Monday) was that the dwell times in Manhattan on the BMT Broadway Line were somewhat longer than usual. I spoke to a number of T/Os and they pretty much agreed that there was no mass confusion today at all.
There were a great deal of signal maintainers on the Manhattan Bridge today during middays. I mean, LOTS of them - must have been at least a pair near every signal on the Manny B's main span today when I crossed it (3:30pm). I also saw a similar number when I walked across it at about 10:30am. Was there something going on or was this "just in case" something would go wrong?
And the DOT hasn't wasted any time getting started on the North Side, either. I saw many a jackhammer already at work.
Even with the W running express to Astoria from Queensboro Plaza, there are still nearly four #7 trains for every W or N that passed by in the 2 hours I spent videotaping the Astoria Line and Queensboro Plaza. When was the last time express service was offered on the Astoria Line?
I also wasn't alone railfanning - I saw at least 2 individuals with cameras on the Astoria Line today between 4pm and 6:30pm. Any Subtalkers perhaps?
Finally, there aren't too many good shots to be had along the Manny B bike / pedestrian path, except near the anchors. The fence between the walkway and the trains obscures any images you might try to get. However, I walked across the Brooklyn Bridge today, too, and there are quite a few vantage points where you can get some nice shots with a zoom lens.
Went to Stillwell Ave today, too. The area where the stores used to be at the corner of Stillwell & Surf Aves has been torn down to the point that only the steel skeleton remains. By the time next week rolls around, it wouldn't surprise me if THAT was gone, too.
--Mark
--Mark
I noticed "dwell time" problems as well, on the "D" train coming back from Yankee Stadium last night around 10pm. We sat for a long time at each of 59th, 7th Ave, and 42nd St. before crossing over into 34th northbound express track to terminate. Some people wouldn't get off the train despite the annoucements.
>>>Some people wouldn't get off the train despite the annoucements. <<<
Yes, rumor has it that this same group of people have been on the D train since Sunday. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, if they wait long enough, it will go back over the bridge.
Now the $64,000,000 question: how long is long? (Images of dusty skeletons travelling up and down the D-line)…
John
>>>(Images of dusty skeletons travelling up and down the D-line)… <<<
Dusty skeletons with very thick skulls...could it be a group of SubTalkers...nah 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe a few errant FOAMERS, perhaps...;-D
BMTman
I started my day at 8:30 this morning and just got back. The N21 bus got me to Flushing in an hour, but there was the usual confusion at Main street, and I had to wait 15 minutes for an express.
Well at least the T/O wasn't a scardeycat in the Steinway oil tubes. After a restroom break at Grand Central I get a 4 up to 59th, and get on a W train of R68A's. The W was empty. I take it to 57th where I get off for the Q express. A Hippo Q local leaves first from the other side but I'm waiting for a Slant. It pulls in, and the diamond Q stick on can barely be seen (no light). I get on and we leave soon after. The ride at first was kind of slow, as we had to wait for that Q local ahead of us (which had to wait for the W). 34th is more crowded than usual but nothing chaotic. We got good speed down the express track, they take the curves pretty fast (no timers).
The curve into Canal is fairly gentle but guarded by timers. It definately felt wierd to enter Canal a different way (on a train). The platform was busy, but again nothing chaotic. After we pull out of Canal I notice how nice the tunnel is leading up to the bridge. The design is more spacious than Chrystie, and straighter. Also noted are trackways where the Nassau st. tracks used to tie in. The ride across the south side was fairly smooth and definately less sickening than the north side. The view to the south was nice. The tunnels that lead into Dekalb seemed pretty quick also. We rejoined the brighton line after Dekalb. We finally passed the lumbering Q local of R68 on the Brighton express, but I did need to catch it when we got to Brighton beach anyway to get to Stillwell. From 57-7th to Brighton the Q express only took 45 minutes, much quicker than the 6th ave route.
When I got to Stillwell I hopped on a W, R68A's of course, with the front window covered up. :-(
The ride was slow on the West End, but fast along 4th ave exp. Saw some M's laying up around 9th as well, and what looked line another railfan (whom I do not know) who got off at 9th ave to videotape.
On the W the bridge seemed much slower, there must have been congestion but I saw alot of track workers and supervisors out there. I guess they are just watching to make sure everything's OK, but we did have to slow down. There was congestion the whole way up Broadway. Not too bad, but no fast speeds were obtained. I stayed on the W going through to Queens, where the 60th street tube was pretty fast. By the time we left Queensboro plaza it was just after 1pm, but we didn't go express to Ditmars and ran local. When we got to Ditmars it seemed there were some delays, I guess the tower has to get used to the additional volume. I got on another W going back toward Manhattan where I took it to Canal. Again some congestion around 5th and 34th st. Also a Q express had to wait for us at 42nd. I got off at Canal and the station was definately busy, like Grand street, but no major confusion. I walked on Canal street which was more jammed with people, obviosly due to the service changes. I still think they should take a lane of traffic out to give people more room to walk.
Grand street definately seemed empty, but the subway station itself still had a reasonable amount of people. The wooden blocks are in place, nothing going over the northside! Same for the tunnels from Dekalb to the A/B. The shuttle train of R46 arrived shortly, as almost every seat did get taken. Took it to Bway-Lafeyette where I crossed over for the orange S to Queens. I had to wait about 15 minutes. Also I saw no F's Brooklyn bound during that time, except for one that was packed to the gills and bypassed the station (blowing horn). F's going uptown looked equally packed. The shuttle train of 32's was fairly empty. We had a quick T/O. We left Bway-Lafeyette on the S/B express track, then switched over to the northbound. We arrived at W4th on the N/B express track. Then diverged to the local track. All signals in the dash were set to RED. :-(
The R32's roared through the 63rd street tunnel. It was a pretty good ride. After a quick reverse at 21st, getting off at Lex/63rd and walking to Wendy's for "linner" (a combination of lunch and dinner) I got back on the Broadway line, taking an N to 42nd street for a Q local. I went across the bridge again and got off at Dekalb to take a Manhattan bound Q. I just missed a Q exp of R40 slants but I only had to wait about 6 minutes for the next one (after a local). There was an announcement about an investigation at City Hall. I was hoping to see an N go over the bridge but they were just bypassing that station. I get on the Q and we go across. The south side tunnel lead dives down on a rather steep grade. Thanks to track workers in the area any hopes of speed were dashed. Going across the bridge there wasn't any congestion ahead of us but with track workers, supervision and T/O's that are still new to this concept, timers were treated with the utmost room.
There's alot of timers going down into Canal from the bridge, just like with Grand. Going up Broadway was pretty quick. In beteen Prince and 8th we just flew, and the T/O took the curve before 14th a bit hard, but then slowed down. I got off at 34th and walked around abit. There didn't appear to be any confusion, even though this was the evening rush. It was crowded, but the only mobs of people I saw were around TV cameras. If you ask me I don't think they should be filming at that time.
I got on a W going to 42nd. It was so nice to get into the Broadway line 34th station and a train comes right away! Got off at 42nd and got to the 7 express. The 7X was fast as usual, we got a real agressive T/O! I just made an N21 back home when I got to Flushing. The ride went pretty well until the driver made a wrong turn and had to turn around, that'll be mentioned in Bustalk.
My overall impression is that things appeared to go pretty well. I didn't see many confused people around Grand or Canal streets, or 34th as well. There was only some confusion on the Queens bound W at Lexington avenue, as people were wondering where the W was going. Answer, Astoria, astoria, astoria!
Still there needs to be better signage. Some signs on the 6th ave line just have BDQ covered up, and at 57th and 7th there's no signs explaining the Q train, or which track the Q expresses leave from.
TA personnel were out in force all over the system today, I got two more maps from boxes in Canal street and Stillwell avenue. There were some delays due to door holding mostly around 34th street, but nothing major. There were some merging delays at 34th with the Q and W, as well as the Q and N on the Astoria line. But this will probably diminish with time, as T/O's and tower operators get more practice with the new layout. The main thing that seemed to be a problem was the F. Even though I didn't go on it, the trains I did see were packed to the gills. Probably 6th ave riders that still haven't switched yet. The Broadway trains weren't too crowded at all, but they probably will get all their riders back by later this week. Also the N line had alot of Slant R40's in service today. In fact the N trains I saw were mostly R40s with an occasional R68 or R32.
All in all I say today appeared to go very well. No major problems that I saw. And even though the dash is gone, Broadway is back and better than ever! Plus the connections are fabulous compared to 6th avenue.
BTW if anybody did see me today I was wearing a blue shirt, tan pants and carrying a black bag, occasionaly with headphones on.
>>Also noted are trackways where the Nassau st. tracks used to tie in.<<
Perhaps you're talking about the Trackways that lead from the Broadway tracks to the 6th av tracks. What gets me, is that the entire trackway is still there!! If the TA wanted, trains coming from Brooklyn could run up broadway when the south side tracks are closed.
>>Also I saw no F's Brooklyn bound during that time, except for one that was packed to the gills and bypassed the station (blowing horn). F's going uptown looked equally packed.<<
A lot of brooklyn riders that previously took the D/Q can take the F (if GreenSignL ever comes back here, you could ask him 'bout that). I guess that a lot of people decided to just hop on the F instead of deal with the Broadway mess. I expect F ridership to soar. If the V could be extended to Brooklyn, and the F allowed to run via Culver express, that would be a big help.
>>and at 57th and 7th there's no signs explaining the Q train, or which track the Q expresses leave from.<<
The Q,< Q > and W (evenings) can depart from either of the 2 express tracks, as the signs point out. Further, there's no need to explain the Q's in the uptown direction.
>>Also the N line had alot of Slant R40's in service today. In fact the N trains I saw were mostly R40s with an occasional R68 or R32.<<
I saw a quite a few R-32 N trains and 2 R-68 N trains, but as you said, the N seems to now be a majority of R-40's. (those cars suck. Unless you want a window, they're the worst.)
<<"Perhaps you're talking about the Trackways that lead from the Broadway tracks to the 6th av tracks. What gets me, is that the entire trackway is still there!! If the TA wanted, trains coming from Brooklyn could run up broadway when the south side tracks are closed.">>
I've never ridden the H tracks, and will be out of town most of the summer, so I wont get much chance to see this for a while. But you mean that if they were to remove the wall they built in 1967 at the north side portal,, it would be possible to have had BMT express service for all these years? The Q didn't need to go to the IND?
Wall? Hell, the wall isn't even there. The only problem would be that northbound Q trains would have had to cross in fron of South bound B and D trains at grade level. The M does this though. And, with the Q off the 6th av, congestion would have been reduced. still, I don't think the TA would have been too happy about this.
Something was done when they did Chrystie to make it impossible to use the connection from B'wy to the north side. I think the approach grades to the North Side were changed.
And, you can also see the former connection from the south side to Nassau as well.
I never noticed this until today. My previous trips through this area were before the newer brighter tunnel lighting was installed.
That's something I will have to check out this fall. I rode over the south side in 1987-88 and tried to note the old Nassau St. connection, but couldn't make it out. Nice to hear the slants are holding down the fort on the Q express.
I don't think the grades between the north and south tracks on the Manny B could have been changed that much, since the changover from B`way to Sixth Ave. back in 1967 only took an extended weekend to accomplish. The B'way tracks do dive faster once they're in the tunnel, since the Canal St. station on the Q/W is three levels down from the street, while Grand is only two levels below ground.
>>Something was done when they did Chrystie to make it impossible to use the connection from B'wy to the north side. I think the approach grades to the North Side were changed.<<
Don't think so. The trackways are still in place. Before, if you rode southbound on the A/B tracks, you could see the connection to Broadway there. No that you're on Broadway, when you ride into manhattan, you can see the trackways, again. These trackways weren't modified. Hence, all you have to do is lay trackage on this trackway.
Perhaps you mean the grade was changed after the trackway connection...
Yes, that would be visible, especially from the rear window of the southbound Diamond Q. Why they don't reactivate that with a grade crossing is totally beyond me. The crossing at grade would only impact southbound trains when northbound (counter-clockwise) Loop trains were using it. Ptoper signalling would take care of it.
wayne
It was possible, bit it would have necissated a grade crossing between 6th Ave. and Bway trains. It wasn't worth the effort.
(if GreenSignL ever comes back here, you could ask him 'bout that).
His computer is out of commission indefinitely. He's going through withdrawal. Not a pretty sight.
Dan
So why doesn't he get a new one? Prices have really come down in the last year. I configured one online (with a 3 year warranty) for under $400 (add your own OS) or you can build one yourself for a similar price.
I dunno. He told me that it was a loose processor, today, and that he should be back up and running this evening.
Dan
>>I saw a quite a few R-32 N trains and 2 R-68 N trains, but as you said, the N seems to now be a majority of R-40's. (those cars suck. Unless you want a window, they're the worst.)<<
What?!? Is this some kind of a cruel joke? R40's are awesome, just because of the window (and they also look really nice!)! I mean, why else would you desire to ride a certain modern NYC subway car besides for it's railfan window?
These cars are good for only 2 reasons: speed and the railfan window. The seats are absolutley horrible, their suspension is jumpy at best and the slanted noses are, well, ugly.
It's not that ugly... the bouncyness is kinda nice and it's the point of the subway... you can expect the bouncyness... and the seats aren't that comfy but BIG DEAL!
Wasn't the R40 designed by the guy who designed the GG1 electric locomotive? You gotta respect that. Everything before and after (from R26 to R142) the R40 is just a flat faced wimpy looking bus with steel wheels. The R40 was actually styled! It was meant to look good. It would look a lot better if all the anticlimbers and stuff that were added could be taken back off. The car looks simpler and even better. Also, remember the period in which the car was designed, and what themes the designer was trying to bring out.
Yes, they are also fast, but I'm sure they aren't given the chance to go as fast as they can. The IRT seems to be a much better place for people who want to go fast. Except maybe the recent reports of 50mph+ in the BMT or IND tubes to Queens.
Finally, I don't think the seats are that bad. I've never seen anyone sit down, and then get back up because the seats are uncomfortable. If you are tired and want to sit for the ride, you will sit on the R40's benches and not complain.
Your posting made a partiucularly interesting point- that the trip to Stillwell was much faster on the BMT. Hopefully when (and if) we get full M/B service back, there will be more frequent Brighton/Broadway service than there was in the 70s-early 80s.
Here's a dumb question:
Why didn't you take the W from Queensboro Plaza instead of going all the way to Grand Central and then north to 59th?
Outstanding post Qtrain7 helps us out of towners who keep up useing a map....
I have several comments to make:
Why can't the N go over the bridge? It's not like 4 trains on one side of the bridge would make it collapse since they're not all on it at the same time. If the N goes express, there would just be 4 express trains on the Broadway and 6th ave lines combined just like what it used to be.
People from the West End line from Brooklyn can actually take the M to 9th street for the F for 6 ave stops in Manhattan. How come the brochure didn't mention that?
If the Brighton lines in Brooklyn are diamond and circle Q's, how come the Grand Concourse lines in the Bronx aren't named circle and diamond B's or D's?
**If the Brighton lines in Brooklyn are diamond and circle Q's, how come the Grand Concourse lines in the Bronx aren't named circle and diamond B's or D's?**
Ostensibly, the diamond Q is a replacement for the 6th Avenue–Brighton Q line which last ran over the Manny B. via Sixth Avenue on Friday, while the circle Q is in place and stead of the Concourse–6th Avenue–Brighton D, the last train of which, as I’d noted before, I travelled between DeKalb Avenue and 34th Street-6th Avenue in the wee small hours of early Sunday morning.
>>Why can't the N go over the bridge? It's not like 4 trains on one side of the bridge would make it collapse since they're not all on it at the same time. If the N goes express, there would just be 4 express trains on the Broadway and 6th ave lines combined just like what it used to be.<<
There's a limit to how many trains can use a line of track before trains slow to a crawl. 30 tph is generally what a 2 track configuration can support. Putting the N on the bridge screws that up. Does that explain it?
>>People from the West End line from Brooklyn can actually take the M to 9th street for the F for 6 ave stops in Manhattan. How come the brochure didn't mention that?<<
It's not really a service change. It's a normal service plan. People who could do that before could do that today.
>>If the Brighton lines in Brooklyn are diamond and circle Q's, how come the Grand Concourse lines in the Bronx aren't named circle and diamond B's or D's?<<
They aren't the same line. Why should they? There's no reason.
They are the same line. The two 6s and Qs have a similar relationship. One is local, the other is express, and they have different terminals on their outer end.
Of course, the A/C have the same relationship, and have different letters. But I think 4 lines called A would be a tad excessive.
J trainloco addressed your first question in part. In addition, running the N express (the bridge tracks function in effect as shortcut express tracks to the N/R through lower Manhattan and don't connect to the local tracks on either side without some degree of messy switching) would shortchange the Broadway local stations. Two services need to stop at those stations and it was decided to make them the N and the R, if nothing else to reduce the confusion this week.
When the brochure was published, the M wasn't scheduled to run south of Chambers outside of rush hours. In a situation that's already complex, including information that's only valid for a few hours a day is a mistake. Besides, I can't imagine that this would be a popular routing -- except for those who absolutely insist on a 6th Avenue line, the Broadway line is much faster and more direct.
Except for service patterns, the B and D are identical to their incarnations last week from 34th Street on up. Why should their names change?
I have just created the Acela Express photo gallery in New York Area Railroads. To see the photos, click here, then select the Amtrak section where you will find the AE gallery.
-Dan
New York Area Railroads.
Since you took the photo of Power Car 2030, the Cafe car you took should belong to this trainset. According to the roster of Acela Express, the Power Car number you took should be 3302.
Chaohwa
Oops, 3302 is the Cafe car number you took. I should write Cafe car instead of Power car.
Chaohwa
The Q has two ways to get from the bridge to the DeKalb platform. Mine took the first diverging route. Did anyone's tunnel under the track from the north side?
My express ran on the track against the wall.
I think someone telepathically planted the idea in my head that the "underpass" is only being used for DeKalb "bypass" trains, aka the W. YES, I KNOW the Qexp/loc can also use the underpass, but I got this funny feeling they ain't. And I'm really bummed over it because I really wanted to ride it. But at least I got to ride the Manhattan bound underpass on a Qexp with a railfan window.
As did mine.
Mine took the first diverge also, and it's very annoying because of the sharp S-curve to the right as soon as you get underground, requiring extra slow speed for a longer period of time. (I don't think there's a similar sharp S-curve on the now-unused north track the the D/Q used to take leaving Brooklyn.) That curve should've been straightened out a bit during the years of non-use; the tunnel seems wide enough.
It's my assumption that the Qs will always take the first diverge and the Ws will use the other route.
I rode the W from Pacific to Astoria and it was obvious that the C/R was reading off the map (not always accurately).
Most of the way up he claimed the last stop was Astoria Boulevard. Close but not quite.
He announced that we'd be stopping at DeKalb. He announced it again, with a list of transfers. We bypassed DeKalb. I'm not sure if he even noticed.
In Manhattan, he announced the transfer to the Q all the way up to 57th (except 49th). (There's no possible reason to transfer from the W to the Q anywhere past Canal.) At one point he even announced the transfer to the W. (If he had been a C/R on the E, I'll bet he would have nonchalantly announced the transfer to the 7 at 23rd-Ely and the transfer to the V at Roosevelt.)
He was announcing the W as though everyone knew what the W was. Most of the passengers thought it was a missigned N. (The north and south terminals are both the same as the N's.) Many more just stood on the platforms, waiting for the next train. Remember, the TA targeted its ads and brochures at B/D/Q riders, not N riders.
To his credit, he clearly announced the express run in advance. Most passengers got off at QBP to wait for a local. One passenger in my car was mildly perturbed as we zoomed by his station. But turning at Ditmars takes too long -- the W waited so long at Astoria that I eventually gave up and got on a southbound train.
Is it too much to ask that C/R's be expected to actually understand the service changes and make intelligent announcements that might actually help passengers cope with the changes?
(Another example of a poor announcement, this time on a B. If you're the C/R on a B that's sitting at the southbound platform on the first weekday of a major service change, the proper announcement is not a quiet "B to 145th, step in, stand clear of the closing doors." Thanks to the guys on the platform directing southbound passengers to the F and S, only one passenger in my car was confused when we pulled out.)
Sounds like you would make a good conductor!
Thanks, but I couldn't see myself putting up with much of what conductors deal with every day. Stick my head out the window of a moving train into a mob of confused and angry commuters? No thanks!
I do get the impression that many conductors don't really know or care much about the system they work in. That's a shame, both for them and for the system.
I remarked yesterday about a conductor on the Q who was clearly enjoying his job (that's a good thing) but didn't realize that the W didn't run to Manhattan on weekends. I corrected him and he thanked me. I often want to make minor corrections or suggestions that might help other passengers, but I'm always afraid that I'll be asked to mind my own business. (That was essentially the response I got at 34th IND when I suggested to the guy giving out information that he ask the relevant people to correct the sign that was hanging right over his head, confusing everyone he was speaking to.) Should I come forth or should I just mind my own business and let the next trainload get lost?
Mind yer own business! :) And enjoy the subway system for yourself. Of course, in the event of a matter of life and death, G-d forbid, please help the person in trouble.
You did the proper thing ....
It is much harder to understand a system when you're inside it and are forced to work with it all the time. There's no chance to figuratively take it apart and see how it works.
If I were in that situation, I'd say "The system is crazy and I can't understand it but I can't fight it or change it. So I'll do my job and not drive myself crazy by trying to learn everything."
Do tou have anything nice to say about the system, it seems like the only time you post is to complain or find fault with others.
I wouldn't bother complaining if I didn't think the system were worth complaining about. The New York City subway system is the finest in the world, but it's not worth much if its passengers can't find their way around it. If even the C/R's can't find their way around, that points to a problem at the training level -- and if anyone here happens to be involved in the training process, I hope they'd look into the problem.
Almost all of my criticisms are constructive. I don't just say that somebody did something bad -- I also give advice (as a random subway rider who happens to be more familiar than average with the workings of the system) of what would be better. Reading a list of transfers off a map isn't going to help anyone, and announcing a stop at DeKalb is undoubtedly only going to confuse -- so, as a rider, I suggested that C/R's study their new routes well enough that they can make intelligent announcements that will help other riders find their way around.
Do I have anything nice to say about the system? Lots! As I said above, it's the finest subway system in the world. Most of the C/R's and T/O's are more than competent. Overall I think the TA handled this situation quite well, but there are a few sticking points that should be fixed.
Exactly. 100% agreement here. I wonder if he is a TSS in disguise :):).....
Don't worry, I'm not here to get anyone fired!
Um... there were signs everywhere about the changes... i even saw them on busses... and there were also advisories on the N train... infact... i picked up my brochure at Prince St.
There were signs in a lot of places. Almost all of them shouted out "B-D-Q-Q-W." The impression given was that the changes weren't relevant to those who didn't ride those lines. In fact, the changes were directly relevant to N/R riders and indirectly relevant to just about every subway rider.
But there aren't any changes to the N and R... the N/R still go where they have been and there haven't been any re-routes... Sure there's extra trains on Broadway, but no changes...
Many N/R passengers can save time with the Q/W. Large crowds at 5th and Lex stood back to let our mystery W go by, although a handful got on when the passengers assured them it was an N (which, of course, it wasn't). N service has been reduced, so those passengers who could take the W if only they knew where it went are waiting longer than they used to for nothing. The changes have some sort of affect on nearly anyone who rides the trains in Manhattan, Queens, or Brooklyn.
Extra trains mean that people who used to hop on any old train now need to check the signs. I boarded a shuttle at Queensbridge today; someone assumed it was an F and didn't realize her error until the last stop.
hm... i c ur point... but what i meant was no reroutes...
Oh, certainly, the changes were most pressing for B/D/Q riders. But the large posters in the cars implied that nobody else should even bother looking into the pending changes.
Large crowds at 5th and Lex stood back to let our mystery W go by,
Maybe they weren't going to an express stop?
And they preferred standing in the stifling underground heat over waiting on an elevated platform? (This was yesterday, when it was at least bearable outdoors.)
No, many if not most had no clue what this new-fangled W thing was. The passengers in my car thought it was an N with the wrong signs up.
You shoulda seen the look of this guy on my manhattan-bound W this morning at we pulled onto the Southside tracks on the bridge. Completely priceless expression - the essence of "WTF??" followed by a just as perfect shrug. New Yorkers may be expressive and complain alot, but they knwo how to make do.
Everybody notices Canal vs. Grand, but how many passengers do you think notice that trains are now running on the other side of the bridge?
Um... there were signs everywhere about the changes... i even saw them on busses... and there were also advisories on the N train... infact... i picked up my brochure at Prince St.
Is it too much to ask that C/R's be expected to actually understand the service changes and make intelligent announcements that might actually help passengers cope with the changes?
To put a little perspective on this: Sunday and Monday, aside from being the start of major service changes, saw the following: 40 A to B division transfer TOs coming out to the road; 25ish A to B transfer TOs from the open competitive coming out to the road for their very first day; a full class of B division TOs from the open competitive coming out to the road for their first day ( I don't know how big that group was); a class of A to B division CRs who are currently posting and a class of new CRs who have just hit the road in the last week. Depending on the size of those last three groups, you're looking at somewhere beteen 100 and 200 'new' RTO employees who are trying to make as much sense of the changes as the general public. For some reason, however, it would seem that we are not allowed the time to get used to it the way the public is. Too many people expect us to know everything immediately and get annoyed when we make mistakes (to err is human... last I looked I wasn't an alien (or the big man himself)).
Yesterday, the big question at 34/6 Ave was "How do I get to Brooklyn?"
Unfortunately, without more info, I can't tell you. Just when I thought I could get away with sending everyone to the Q/W, one gentleman told me he needed to get to Brooklyn - Clinton/Washington on the C. Luckily I had asked for the clarification on Brooklyn before sending him upstairs.
Another example of a poor announcement, this time on a B. If you're the C/R on a B that's sitting at the southbound platform on the first weekday of a major service change, the proper announcement is not a quiet "B to 145th, step in, stand clear of the closing doors."
OK, you're right. The proper announcement is "This is a B to 145 St. the next stop is 42nd St. Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
To put a little perspective on this: Sunday and Monday, aside from being the start of major service changes, saw the following: 40 A to B division transfer TOs coming out to the road; 25ish A to B transfer TOs from the open competitive coming out to the road for their very first day; a full class of B division TOs from the open competitive coming out to the road for their first day ( I don't know how big that group was); a class of A to B division CRs who are currently posting and a class of new CRs who have just hit the road in the last week. Depending on the size of those last three groups, you're looking at somewhere beteen 100 and 200 'new' RTO employees who are trying to make as much sense of the changes as the general public. For some reason, however, it would seem that we are not allowed the time to get used to it the way the public is. Too many people expect us to know everything immediately and get annoyed when we make mistakes (to err is human... last I looked I wasn't an alien (or the big man himself)).
I agree that these past few days have been big days for everyone and mistakes are bound to happen. I can't fault someone for trying to do the best he can but occasionally slipping up. As I posted a day or two ago, when my C/R on the Sunday Q announced the transfer to the W in Manhattan but was otherwise helpful, I went up to him at the end of the trip, thanked him, and offered my correction -- for which he thanked me. I obviously wasn't out to get him fired or anything like that -- I simply wanted to correct a minor error so his passengers for the rest of the day wouldn't get totally lost. If anything, I was protecting him from disciplinary action that may generally be taken (I don't know) against C/R's who make erroneous announcements. But on yesterday's W, the C/R hadn't even put in the effort. How could he have possibly thought that the W stops at DeKalb -- unless he was just aimlessly looking at the map in front of him?!
Any position within the TA that deals with the public, especially that of C/R, is a customer service position. Customer service agents are paid to get their facts correct and to express them in a useful manner. So, no, I don't think C/R's are entitled to as much time to get used to the changes as the public -- at least not after the changes have taken effect. (The planned changes were announced months ago. C/R's had months to get to know the new arrangement.)
Incidentally, your "we're only human" argument flies in the face of subway-buff's push to keep human S/A's. The more the humans make mistakes, the stronger the argument to automate, automate, automate.
Yesterday, the big question at 34/6 Ave was "How do I get to Brooklyn?"
Unfortunately, without more info, I can't tell you. Just when I thought I could get away with sending everyone to the Q/W, one gentleman told me he needed to get to Brooklyn - Clinton/Washington on the C. Luckily I had asked for the clarification on Brooklyn before sending him upstairs.
Oh, I agree. I fielded a few questions myself (not nearly as many as you, I'm sure), and I got people looking for the generic downtown, for SoHo, and of course for Brooklyn. Someone at 34th on the IND platform asked me how to get to 50th -- I told her to take any northbound train two stops, and only then did she clarify that she wanted 50th in Brooklyn on the former B. Saturday night, at Coney Island, as the very first yellow Q pulled in, somebody asked me if it was going to Brooklyn.
OK, you're right. The proper announcement is "This is a B to 145 St. the next stop is 42nd St. Stand clear of the closing doors, please."
In two weeks that will be the proper announcement. This week it is not.
One fact about the human brain is that it filters out distractions -- information that may be correct but is not relevant -- to make room for the useful stuff. To any regular rider of the B, any run-of-the-mill announcement is invariably filtered out. To someone who boards a B at 34th on the downtown platform every day, any run-of-the-mill announcement is simply not going to be heard let alone heeded. Especially when trains are running north from the traditionally southbound platform for the first time in 13 years, announcements of the change need to catch the passengers' attention.
A proper announcement -- for now -- goes something like this: "Attention, passengers. Due to service changes, there is no B or D service south of 34th Street. This is a Bronx-bound B train. One again, passengers, this B train is running north to the Bronx. The next stop will be 42nd Street. Bronx-bound B, Bronx-bound B, Bronx-bound B, 42nd next. Stand clear of the closing doors, please." Or something like that.
I agree with your last comment but passengers are never satisfied. Case in point: Monday, I had a job on the 5. From 125St, I annouced that "this 5 train will be going express in the Bronx." I must have so many times that by the time I got to 3Av, I heard people saying, "We know already." Yet these are the same people that say later that they didn't know that E.180St was the next stop. What can I say? I rather say it over and over instead of a passenger coming up tp my window and saying that they did not hear me. Of course, they are regular 2/5 customers.
Also 30 new O/C Conductors are on there 2nd week in the B Div. and 50 New C/R's on the A Div.
But turning at Ditmars takes too long -- the W waited so long at Astoria that I eventually gave up and got on a southbound train.
I noticed that too...I waited for nearly five minutes at Astoria Blvd. Strangely enough, I was at Ditmars for about two minutes before the train turned and left. Very short layover.
Dan
eBay Item 1170544017; covers Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk.
By Trevor Logan
Man, was this shot work!!!! Took 3 trains to get it right!
Lead Car #4357
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Must have been! I waited for three trains before boarding a Hippo-Q at De Kalb to go over the South side of the bridge tonight.
John
Beautiful Shot!
Excellent photo. It's very well composed. It was worth the effort.
lovely
Thank You All!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
You were the person that they were saying was on the tracks. You are lucky the Cops did not get you.
Nice Shot
Robert
Front sign is super-small don't you think? Nothing's wrong with the picture, but the sign on the train: diamond Q has got to be smaller in size than circle orange Q
Exactly. I've been wondering from the very beginning, what's the deal?.. The diamond is smaller than the circle both on trains and on station signs -- why? Cost cutting?! :-)
The paste-on diamond FITS INSIDE the circle sign on the roll that's why it looks smaller. A regular diamond's (.ie. the Diamond "W" or diamond "R") points overlap the edges of the circle sign so it looks the same size.
wayne
And for such a momentous occasion you'd think they could spiffy up the train a little; repaint the anticlimbers...
Those aren't anti-climbers, those are safety gates.
The anti-climber is the part that goes straight across the face of the train below the storm door and above the coupler.
Time for a little photoshop action.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, that could have been easily fixed in Paint Shoppe Pro or Photo Deluze or the like. If he sends me the jpg I will fix it and send it back to him.
wayne
And the Q-diamond end signs are not lit up like the Q-circle and W on the R68s. Are the Q-diamond end signs opaque paste-ons instead of real scroll signs? It's really noticeable as they approach in the tunnel, and it's a shame.
They're paste ons and suck.
I noticed this too. You cannot tell it's a until it arrives inside the station. Not very attractive.
I guess switching the cars on circle and diamond Q is out of the question. I know that the R68s have diamond Q on them. I don't know if the R40s have yellow circle Q but they do have orange circle Q, and it isn't really that important what color it is as long as it is the right shape nowadays. But switching is out of the question b/c then R40s get full-time service and that's what we are trying to avoid. Maybe simply mixing it up so both routes get both R40s and R68s and then on weekends circle Q gets all R68s? How are these suggestions?
Nice Photo! And how did you get the Photo up onto the Post?
The same way as always: you put it on a web site somewhere (in this case msn.com) and then put a link to it. If you look at the source, there is the image link: {img src=http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/ 0OQAAAKkTFSVYcRE5r8pJClvn6ZOu55q28Y54E!qGKCpzmS7*9OLWWuzIAHTVwJxMFt3sWdyVpJtS 0SGdlrViW34gZUqCmzwF/MTA_R40_AvenueM.jpg"} (I have put some spaces in for clarity here, have a look at the original if you want to get the exact reference. I also replaced the characters <> with {} so that the reference isn’t actually parsed as such). This produces an inline image.
John
Did you take it near Kings Highway?
An excellent shot.
Chaohwa
The photo was taken at the Avenue M Stop!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
You mentioned getting some pointers from Doug Grotjahn, whom you met up with a few days ago. Any inspiration there ?
Nice shot !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, Mr. Grotjahn has been the inspiration for a lot of my shots recently with the pointers he had shared with me, also I have other people like:
Andrew Grahl, John Pappas, Adam Paul (Balitmore), Dave Pirmann
To thank for inspiration on styling and shot composure!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Thanks but I don't belong in the list of greats like Doug & Joe T. & Steve Zabel etc. yet. :-)
Little do you know!
You had sent me a shot a while ago you did up at Yonkers, It was a Conrail train. That shot was just plain awesome and in my book, put you right up there with them!
Regards,
T.Logan
www.transitalk.com
Mahhhhh-velous. Simply maahhhhhh-velous.
Very good, Trevor! That's my wallpaper now.
wayne
lighting & tine of day is the thing with all photography - video too !! & skill & trial & error & then finally some luck & there it is !!
"" Nightshots "" are really the tough ones to shoot even with a digital camera !! ......lol !!
I do all kinds of day and night! This is a bus shot though but its a night shot!
Enjoy!
Regards,
T.Logan
www.transitalk.com
Wow, that's nice! No tripod I assume? Looks digital?
No Tripod at all!
Yes I took it with my digital SLR, did it all in Manual Mode, none of the automation crap :o)!
Regards,
T. Logan
www.transitalk.com
Looks great and has a certain "comic book" look to it, I love it!
Peace,
ANDEE
Nice photo of time square and the OriOn V.
Captures the bus and its environment, very nice compostion.
WOW !! was that taken with a digital camera my brother ??
man what a nice pic !!
Digital All The Way!
Trevor
Me sees WWF New York!!
:cD
Only if he could squeeze MTV in the picture.
I sent you invitations to join my transit pages clubs / & discussion groups
most of my analog / digital photography is loaded there
thanks !! Salaam Allah
Good shot Trevor, right by my alma mater: E.R. Murrow High School.
Hey, folks!
I was out railfanning today in Astoria for both the morning and evening rush, trying out my new digi-cam. I got
about 50 photos, mostly of the W in action. Click this link to go to my website, Keystone Pete's Trolley Photos, and click on
the "Day One of the 'W' " link to view some of the better shots. Dont worry, the thumbnail versions of the photos on the new
page are only 40kb on average.
With regard to a recent thread, there's a shot at 39th Avenue showing the partially demolished Beebe tower in the background.
(Anybody know where I can download any GIFs or JPEGs of the number/letter bullets. I seem to recall a SubTalker having
posted about where to find them on his website some time ago. I'd like to cop a W bullet if I can.)
I met a SubTalker T/O during the evening rush, who has probably posted by now about the travails of the first day of W's from an insiders' viewpoint. Or maybe not. I'll let him identify himself if he wishes…
Enjoy the photos, guys and gals. As usual, comments and corrections are appreciated.
Keystone Pete
Did the same, Here is what I caught today:
By Trevor Logan
1st Pic End Car is #5014
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Nice photos.
You can go to R.M. Marrero's site (Transfer Point Transfer) for bullets:
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/bullets
Sorry, I forgot to tell you that those are great photos. Brought me lots of memories of my railfanning days during the 60's and 70's upon seeing the Astoria line stations.
Jose
Thanks. I was having fun too. :O)
You must have taken those evening shots at 39th/Beebee not 15 minutes after I left, judging by the sun's shadows .....
--Mark
You must have taken those evening shots at 39th/Beebe not 15 minutes after I left, judging by the sun's shadows .....
--Mark
I was all over the place. I started at QBP, took an 'N' to 39 Av., took a 'W' back to QBP, rode a 'W' to Astoria Blvd. (we went at a pretty good clip in that R-68 on the center track!), and then took a 'W' back to Broadway. I took shots in all these places.
I saw a railfan (an asian guy, don't know if he's a SubTalker) at Astoria Blvd. with a telephoto lens. He was on the "downtown" island plat and I on the "uptown." We both watched a Penn Station-bound Acela Express train go by on the NYCRR overpass. He said he had been taking shots of the bridge activity earlier. Sadly, my cameral has limited zoom, so an attempt was not warranted in my case.
Hey KP,
Excellent shots. Not that I mind being upstate for a personal reason, I was really bummed that I couldn't be home in time for the switch (I'm still upstate btw), but it was nice to see a little of my neighborhood while I'm not there.
For all who ever venture to Astoria or live in it, the bakery he has pictured (the one where he's outside of the Broadway station), is the best in Astoria.
=)
I was surfing the R33-R36 scrap list and saw that 9540-9541 were scrapped as of 7/9/01 at 207 St. A friend of mine says that they're in CI Yard. Corona Yard wants the parts from 9540-9541 for their other Mainliners that are in service. And it seems like these cars have been the biggest mystery out of all the RedBirds.
I heard that 9541's truck derailed at Hunter College Stop some time back. Was there any damage to that car?
My question is where are these 2 cars now and have they been scrapped or will they be brought to Corona for their final run and/or scrapping?
Info would be appreciated.
#9540-9541 R36 MainLiners
Okay, here's 57st:
Q local and express trains were arriving anywhere there was space, which left one group of people at 57th (downtown plat) waiting for an express after passing up four locals. Several times, a Q local arrived, then an express, the express left, then the local. Afterward, there were 2 locals that entered and no room for an express, thus two local Qs in a row.
Here's Astoria:
My W is immediately behind an N. We pass the N at 30 ave. Somehow, we manage to leave Astoria Blvd at the same time and arrive at Ditmars Blvd simultaneously. When was the last time there was a simultaneous arrival at Ditmars of two revenue trains?
Usually when two trains attempt to be in the same place
simultaneously, the NTSB visits.
Thx to the track arrangement, the W on the 3/4 switched to 1, while the N stayed on 2. No need for the NTSB yet. Now, if they had tried to leave at the same time...
Not totally inconceivable. If the express run is ever extended through the night (fat chance), at some point the express will stop running north and start running south. An N and a W could pull into Ditmars at once just before the switch, swap letters, and pull out at once, with the new W running express.
Yeah, they would probably stagger the departures...
Personally, I find the notion of 24-hour express service on the Astoria line, of all places, somewhat less likely than departures that aren't staggered.
addendum, on an uptown 1 train recently as we were
crawling out of 238 towards 242-VCP, a second train
pulled up from the 240st Yard (entered middle track)
and later switched over to the downtown track as
both trains proceeded to enter 242 VC at the exact
same time and the exact same speed (car wise, too).
Attn: David Pirmann
Attn: Kevin Walsh, Forgotten-NY
During a visit to THE WESTCHESTER MALL in White Plains NY
today I came across a museum-like display for the
NY Westchester & Boston Railway (Co.?) which contained
a model-scale railway car along with several photographs
and memorabilia from the line; including a platform sign
listing the fares (one-way, round-trip, and monthly commutation),
several trip tickets (dated 1937), a conductors ticket
hole-puncher, a section of rail taken from the actual
ROW, as well as complete maps detailing the stations along the
NY W&B route (including E. 180th (where the stationhouse
is much still intact today) and all proceeding stations up
to the DYRE AVENUE (5) Terminal)
A rather interesting find, inside the food court
at the WESTCHESTER MALL in White Plains, NY.
I know that display well. Roger Arcara (RIP) was a font of knowledge about this railroad.
It is said that when they did the excavation work to build the Westchester Mall back in the early 90's, they found broken up rows of track. Roger Arcara provided much of the memorabilia you see in the display case.
The train's White Plains Depot was located on the exact spot of the Mall. Before the Mall was built, B.Altman's occupied the sight.
Roger Arcara used to hold these film events at the now gone Bronx YMCA on Westchester Avenue - where the Spanish Bank building is today.
His events were always fascinating. I unfortunately found out about them a little too late. I was only able to attend two of the events in 94 until Mr Arcara became too sick to continue. The books and videos and slides that railfans sold at these events were great. Mr Arcara had many videos to choose from. He had videos on Freedomeland (where CoOp City is today) to the a railfan window's view of the last day of service on the NY W & B.
I regret to say that no one continued this fine tradition after Mr Arcara's passing. I do hear that you can still purchase his videos though.
Ooops I meant site not sight
I know the TA is scrapping the Red/Bluebirds when the new R142s arrive, but I think they are doing somethings wrong.
I was on the #2 this morning and had 9007. NO A/C - felt like a sardine from the heat and it being packed.
Why doesn't the TA remove the DEADBIRDS that have NO WORKING A/C first?
OH - BTW - I like these trains - so I am not really complaining - just commenting.
How do you know that the scrapped cars had goo air conditioning? A big criteria for scrapping a certain before the others is the amount of rust on the car body, as well as mechanical history. Air conditioning is a passenger ammenity. I'm sure there are other hot Redbirds besides 9007 out there.
Funny, it worked a week ago when they pulled the last batch of cars to go...
-Hank
I think you shoud avoid 9007.
So the AC doesn't work. What's the matter with you guys, you've never been in a hot car before?
Even the best Redbirds and R-142s and other car classes have there share of mechanical problems. THAT'S REALITY. Live with it.
-Stef
The last time -- really the last time -- I was on a set of R-36 WF Redbirds on the No. 6, in mid-June, the AC stunk. On the other hand, the R-29 `Bird I was on later in the day on the 6 had great AC, and AFAIK, it's still there and the R-36 cars have gone off to the scrapper, so at least in that case, the MTA did send off the hot cars first (though of course there may have been other reasons for the decision).
>>>So the AC doesn't work. <<<
In a system that claims to be 100% AIR CONDITINED no customer should have to LIVE WITH IT.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well then that's pure BS if they're making such a claim. How can they say that? As I recall, there are 40 single units without AC running on the Flushing Line. So the system is NOT completely air conditioned.
-Stef
>>>...40 single units without AC running on the Flushing Line<<<
They are supposed to take these units OOS in the summer time, you know that.
Peace,
ANDEE
to make 11 cars, those menopausal hotbirds will not leave for a summer vacation.
"As I recall, there are 40 single units without AC running on the Flushing Line."
39 is more like it. #9306 is the museum piece in Downtown Brooklyn.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well if you want to get picky, 9306 is at the Museum.
-Stef
Let's get pickier: 9321 is out of service.
David
I can get pickier than that. Tonight, they yanked out 9321 out of the main shop on scrap trucks. Not exactly O/S. Another 4 entered the shop this morning under power including 7797/98. The reef squad is converting a 4 car set in 3 days or less now that they got the hang of it. 7797 had its tanks, group switch, draft grear assembly, trucks and compressor off by lunch. The steel balers are busy with swing panels, storm, cab and side doors, and local/express and side windows are piling up in dumpsters. They are going fast.
That's another nail in the coffin for R-26s.
-Stef
Are they salvaging roll signs, at least?
The rollsigns are heading straight for a dumpster.
-Stef
Where's the dumpster?
I too, wish to know...
....rollsigns and car number plates!!?!
The car number plates aren't worth a s**t, they were replaced in the '70s. Those were the ones that the Transit Museum has had for sale. The plates on the trains now were stick-on numbers.
>The car number plates aren't worth a s**t,
Let WE be the judge of thaaaaaaat!
All you have to do is compare what th TA Museum sells to what is on any Redbird out on the road right now. Half of the numbers are peeling off! But the ones for $5 at the Museum. A Brillo pad cleans them up great.
I would have to agree with that opinion if they are bubbling up with rust, as are many of those on the R29 cars.
wayne
I don't care about number plates. Ideally, I'd like a full set of rollsigns with the thingy they're mounted in, a bench (a short one will do), and a few straps. And a bucket of red paint.
The dumpster is on shop grounds, no one will be able to grab signage. As for number plates, well, me thinks the cars are going underwater with their plates still on them. What a dramatic moment....
-Stef
Aawwwww, mannnnnnnnnnnnn!!
I will take a set of bulkhead signs if anyone knows where I can get one.
wayne
If only MTA knew how much $$$ them rollsign blokes
sell for on E-Bay... it'd be wise of the shopfolk
to place dumpster in question within public reach
and plant a sales attendant on a stool and see just
how much $$$ the MTA can make withOUT dreaming of a
bloody fare increase!!
I, for one... would line up at that very dumpster.
I can see it now ... "Garbage truck hijacked at gunpoint" ... and people all over the country shaking their heads. And you just KNOW Heypaul will show with snacks and eats. :)
Not to mention his gas grill.:-)
Nah, THAT has salvage value ... and Heypaul already has all the memorabilia he needs. Them damned redbirds were interlopers and ruined the prewar cars over on the "toy subway" ... :)
Aye, I would too, just tell me where it is.
Somebody has to know somebody up at 207th Street, you would think.
I know when my Dad was up there anytime there was a wreck, he'd get someone to go out to the Boneyard to pull off the dogtag - I have them right here in front of me: R-6-3 #986, R-10 #3062 and the prize: R-10 #3333. When the R-4s were being scrapped wholesale in 1970 he managed to get about 75 or so brass dogtags, I have 'em all sitting in a metal box. He'd even shine 'em up on the grinders wheel for me!
wayne
When the R-1/9s were retired, their roll signs, complete with mechanisms, became readily available. I got most of mine at Cityana Gallery, then picked up a complete signbox at Shoreline. Cityana also had an R-27 destination curtain which I didn't buy. Bummer.
If I'm not mistaken, the bulkhead sign mechanisms on the Redbirds are identical to the ones on the R-1/9s, assuming they were manufactured by the Hunter Illuminated Car Sign Company.
Yep ... Hunter did the IND cars ... spent more than enough time as a conductor getting the curtains back on the spools on those puppies. Glad to have been promoted to motor ... the curtains I dealt with would catch fire up front and melt. Heh. Actually happened to me twice. Someone here posted a picture of one of the cars I had to take an extinguisher to after dropping the lid to put a curtain out. The shot that was posted here had the lights exposed after it had melted to the glass. The shot was either Bedford or Tremont, forget which ...
Steve, do you remember where Cityana Gallery was, or still is?
You're correct in making that statement which there are 39 Redbirds w/o A/C on the Flushing line. I have seen R-33WF #9306 in the transit museum in Brooklyn.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
The AC cars with broken AC are worse than the R33S becuase the ceiling vents have been all sealed up and there are no fans.
dont forget the winter ! & BRAND NEW cars blowing COLD ac instead of heat !! (MARTA) in Atlanta for me 1983-1989 !!!
( no redbirds there ) !!! he he he he !!! .......lol !!
It's not worthy to complain about a broken A/C on a subway car. You're not the only one to suffer from the heat.
I was on the No.6 Pelham line on an R62A type train with a non-working A/C. Boy I was beginning to sweat. My skin started to feel like flame. Because of that, one of passengers held open the interior car doors used to cross between cars for a little added coolness from the subway tube. (Sorry, I don't recall the #)
This happened a year ago, and being a railfan doesn't guarantee you perfect living, so be thankful for what you are privileged to experience. Nothing is perfect, just as machines aren't all perfect.
Railfan Pete.
It would make a lot of sense to remove the Deadbirds (Redbirds) with non-working A/C first. However they should keep justa few trains of them through the winter until they're sure that the R-142 and R-142A subway cars are running reasonably trouble free.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I'm going to Toronto next week, and I'm going to try to ride all three subway lines, including the Scarborough Rapid Transit, as well as the famous red streetcars. Which streetcar line would be the best to ride, and what sites should not be missed in the city?
Mark
I'd suggest riding the Harbourfront line from Union Station, since it has some very interesting tunnel running as well as street operation, and at least one other of your choice, preferably one with the articulateds (I'll let the Toronto natives suggest that, since I'm not that familiar with the system).
Also see Casa Loma... excellent view of the city from up high, including a CN rail line that runs nearby. The CN Tower in downtown offers a mediocre view and the famous revolving restaurant is overpriced and offers poor "service".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Both lines (509, 510) out of Union Station are good.
509 / Harbourfront goes from Union Station to the Exhibition grounds by way of Queen's Quay and Fleet St. and is quite a nice ride but the streetcars lay over at the Ex for a long time before returning to Union Station. I'd suggest leaving the Exhibition instead on a 511 / Bathurst streetcar, since you'd have a good chance of getting an articulated, and ride all the way up to Bathurst station where you can ride the subway one stop to Spadina station and catch a Spadina streetcar (make sure it is signed for 510 Union Station and not the 510 King short turn) down to Union Station. That knocks off three interesting streetcar rides right there.
The CN tower is something that can be missed without much regret. But to get to Casa Loma - ride up to St. Clair on the Yonge subway and take a 512 St. Clair car across (to get to ride through St. Clair West, another underground streetcar stop) to Spadina Rd. and walk down to Casa Loma. There's a big billboard advertising it on the south side of St. Clair at Spadina Rd.
Another two good streetcar rides are 506 / Carlton from Main Station all the way out to High Park (you'll see Don Jail to the north as the streetcar travels west from Broadview Ave., Maple Leaf Gardens and the College Park are also right on this streetcar line), and 504 / King from Dundas West Station to Broadview Station (this line passes through some streetcar suburbs, the most complicated streetcar intersection in the city - look at the special track work at Roncesvales - and the central business district. Also, the view across the Don Valley as the streetcar climbs up Broadview Ave. is not to be missed).
-Robert King
You might also want to ride the 501 Queen, 504 King, 505 Carlton, these operate out of both carhouses, Roncesvalles and Russell (Connaught). The personnel are very friendly. Perhaps you can receive a tour of the carhouse(s). They are both along the 501, on Queen St., at opposite ends. Also, my favorite line is the 511 Bathurst.My second is the 512 St. Clair, both out of Ron.
505 is Dundas, 506 is Carlton.
Of course there are the obvious landmarks, The CN tower and The Skydome, Maple Leaf Gardens. But check out the two city hall buildings there's the original one side by-side with the modern, quite a contrast in the architecture, which is gorgeous throughout the city, Lots of Seaport activity, I think more so than South St Seaport.
Something I personally enjoyed was taking a ferry across the lake to Ward's Island, which is sort of a bungalow community Kind of like Breezy Point in NY. A cool Breeze blowing through and cozy little homes. The only transportation you can uuse on the islands are bikes.
If I had a scanner I'd e-mail you some pictures of my one and only visit there in '93...a day trip for a Paul McCartney Concert at the CNE.
According to an item in today's Times, the percentage of working-age women in the New York metropolitan area holding paying jobs is the lowest of any urban area in the country. The federal Bureau of Labor Statistics says that 49.2% of New York-area women hold jobs, as compared to a national average of 57.4%. The Minneapolis-St.Paul metro area has the highest percentage, 70.7%.
I find myself at an utter loss trying to figure out why this is so. Try as I will, I can't come up with a logical explanation as to why women around here don't work. But I can see a couple of consequences for transit:
1) There's a lot of pent-up demand. If New York women start joining the labor force in greater numbers, expect to see a big jump in ridership, especially at rush hour. That would translate into more demand for service expansion.
2) Keeping in mind that these are areawide statistics, not just for the city, it's evident that the metro area's economy is weaker than often thought. Low unemployment rates in most suburbs may disguise the fact that there are fewer jobseekers in the first place. And the city's already high unemployment rate would be even worse if so many women weren't out of the labor force. A weaker economy, of course, may make it harder to pay for transit improvements.
It could also mean that there are more single income households, because the one job holder makes enough money for the woman to stay home with the children.
Maybe women want us men to do the work and make them rich so they don't have to work. :-0
Check out my msts brighton line pics that i'm working on.
http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite/brightonlinepics.msnw
Good work so far! I can't wait! Can I beta test it? heh, I admire you for learning that route editor...it's very tough!
i'm having trouble viewing the pictures. I'll try at home later.
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let us know when it's done! How did you figure out that editor???? SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
Generally positive press on the flip from area papers.
Here's one from the Post. It features a commuter whose ride is now better thanks to the flip.
And another from the Post that even quotes Russianoff saying something nice!
The New York Times tunnels into the issus.
Newsday looks at the bridge contract, and incentives to finish early -- and penalties for finishing late.
I rode through Brooklyn and Manhattan on Friday and again on Monday. Took numerous pictures ( slides) of old signage. Hope to be able to post some of them when I get them processed.As an old BMT fan, Monday was a great day. All in all it seems to go well for the passengers, but as I crossed the Bridge ( twice) the signal problems were bad. Had to flag us by each time. T/O was upset as he was 10 minutes late to 57th St ( diamond Q).Seems that there will always be a backup on Broadway as there is so much service ( great!). Noticed that they held N and R at 34th for W crossovers. passengers will probably complain.
One more fact, sad as it is IRT is much faster. With BMT, there are constant timers and slow running. What can be done to speed up the trip?
"With BMT, there are constant timers and slow running. What can be done to speed up the trip?". A change in philosophy by NYCT.
Do you mean there's too much of a "safety-before-speed" thinking now?
On the IRT too, e.g., when I see a 2/5 take all of a couple of minutes to pull into the terminal and in Flatbush... this just doesn't look right. If you can't make it faster while keeping it safe, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the trains.
Hi, there. Does anyone know the first/last times of the "M" leaving Met., Bay Pkway, and 9th Avenue(Not the same trip, but at different times), as per the official supplement? If you have this info, please post
1.Are they still trollys still locate in the depot.
2.how big is the depot?
thank you
The last time I was by there I think there were still 10-15 PCC's in off-rail storage in addition to about the same number of AMG tracklesses. The depot is still active as SEPTA's Trenton-Phila subsidiary organization which operates the Phlash, LUCY and other contract-type services, so you will find some Phlash buses (the Orion II low-floors and the two 30' types that SEPTA was supposed to purchase but didn't) in addition to the 6 ElDorados in the LUCY scheme (the 30' buses SEPTA did purchase).
Germantown is the smallest of SEPTA's depots, site-wise, which always constrained its operations, and which contributed to its demise. As a carbarn, it was fine, but it has homes close by, and, with its considerable outside storage, this presented a problem when buses were being started, warmed up, or kept running (in colder months overnight). It also is hard to access by buses, with several narrow streets in its vicinity, and, aside from Germantown Ave, was not all that close to many of the routes it served. It closed as a bus garage in '93, sending its routes and buses scattered to Allegheny, Callowhill and Luzerne (later replaced itself by Midvale) depots. In some cases, though, the routes served were even further from the depots than they were when Germantown was open.
1.How many on-rail things they still got?
2.do they have any scap buses there?
I don't think anything at G'town is still on rails. Any rail vehicles left there are on pavement. The Buckingham Valley collection, which was there temporarily, was similarly stored on blacktop until it was moved to Scranton.
I don't believe there are any scrap buses at G'town. The backlot at Midvale is the new gathering place for the scrap line, with the area next to the entrance of Frontier a close second (Frontier's is currently crowded, but this changes very often and sometimes there are no buses there at all).
Somewhat related - SEPTA has advertised for sale of the remaining Volvo artics. Anybody want a 60' souvenir?
There was also a major fire there which wiped out a bunch of PCCs years ago. Forgive me, I don't know the date. I'll have to look it up at home.
BTW, the bus-idling-in-the-middle-of-residential-neighborhood-and-causing-pollution problem would not be a problem if Germantown were a trolley carhouse like it should be instead of a haven for those fossil-fuel guzzling behemoths! :O)
Septa have it share of fires in it time like look at the woodland fire in the 70's and look at the callowhill in 1993.
That was the Woodland Depot fire in '75. About 60 PCC's, most of the better ones, were lost. That fire sparked (no pun intended) the abandonment of the North Phila system, since the K cars were already being considered for the subway-surface lines and the PCC's would then be rehabbed for the surface system. The loss of the cars caused SEPTA to rethink the rail investment - some say it may have gotten the K cars on the property that much faster, but eventually the lack of PCC's allowed SEPTA to justify the abandonment of 6, 15, 23, 50, 53, 56 and 60 (although, technically, 15, 23 and 56 are not abandoned and are still rail routes).
You are correct that G'town was never designed to be a bus depot but Comly survives as one in very similar conditions (i.e. residential neighborhood with close-by homes). Comly has much better road access than G'town, which was one big source of complaints from neighbors. Among SEPTA depots, Allegheny, Callowhill, Frankford (to some degree) and Southern have similar situations with close-by homes but still survive.
I remember Germantown Depot from when I was a kid... My grandfather lived about half block down Gorgas Lane. Wish there were still active trolleys there!
Just feel like sharing some impressions of these two days. I live near Kings Highway on the Brighton Line, and work at Broadway & Fulton. So I used to do Q to DeKalb -> N/R to Cortlandt. Running ahead of myself, I may well switch back to that... but not before all of the new things have been tried! :-)
Yesterday I did Q diamond to Canal -> N/R down to City Hall. Main impression - an advanced signal system on the bridge :-) We were closely trailing a W, stopped like 3 times while in the open, and near the middle of the bridge I saw why... there were those pink-and-orange uniformed guys near all but every signal, waving us through ..... red lights. And at least one of the signal (??) boxes near the two rails was thrown wide open. Clearly there was some post-deadline work going on.
In the evening, M from Fulton to Canal -> Q diamond to Brooklyn. (Missed an M by some 30 seconds, and the next one was an M too... Where are all the J's?!) The underpass from J/M/Z to the bridge line Canal -- awesome!! Isn't that about the shortest transfer from station to station in the city?
The bridge ride was not too bad: circa 7 minutes from Canal to DeKalb. No signs of the advanced signal system left.
This morning: Q diamond to Canal -> J to Fulton. On the Q, did the side window for a change, and got a good view of the place where the pre-Chrystie tunnel joins the present track. One used to be able to see quite far down that tunnel from the north side (looking west) and now it's also visible quite far from the opposite side (looking east). I actually expected to see daylight now, but didn't. Is there a wall somewhere midway down that tunnel?
Timing, however, was largely a disaster. DeKalb to Canal was 9 minutes, but this plus transfer plus waiting for the J (forever!) plus Canal to Fulton consumed all of 20 minutes. Now, I don't remember DeKalb to Cortlandt ever taking more than 15 (barring accidents). MB sucks, Montague tunnel rules?..
And a couple more points. Canal. I didn't know until yesterday that the SB J/M/Z had been renovated: Looks nice, but... traces of rusty streams from the ceiling already there, paint on the ceiling itself already detaching by the layer. Is it *principally* impossible to water-proof these stations?!
And I'd never noticed that this J/M/Z Canal is the only (??) station to have its name inscribed in a foreign language (Chinese) right there on the sign beside the English name. Way to go! When are we getting the Russian version of the name at Brighton Beach? :-)
Rider confusion. Witnessed none yesterday, but got "lucky" today. On the Q, one lady asks: "Does this one go to Grand Street?" The other one goes: "Well, there has been some change, but, hmmm, yes, it *should* go there!" Time for my intervention :-) The other lady then asked me at DeKalb whether this one went to City Hall... I recommended jumping out and catching the N/R. I'll have to time this at some point, but as of now, it seems to me it's faster than changing at Canal! Not?.. And then there were a couple next to me, who, while going over the bridge, clearly did not understand what was going on and why downtown Manhattan was so close, all of a sudden :-)
Got some more, but it's time to wrap this up for now :-)
Next month it'll be 10 years since my dad was transferred to Delaware and let me tell you guys (and gals),coming from an ex-New Yorker, You all don't know how good you really have it as good as far as mass transit goes I started College in Philly in '88 and until then I never had to so much as entertain the thought of looking at a train schedule. In fact until finding this board and the MTA site I didn't even think the MTA ran the subways or buses on a formal schedule...why??? Beacuse having grown up a block away from 205th ST station and Bainbridge Ave, where at least 6 different bus routes converged I knew if I just missed the bus or the train that it wouldn't be long at all before the next one was coming. Down here if you miss one, you might not see the next for several hours.
I live a very short walk from the terminus of a DART bus route and when I worked at Sears and had the noon-9:30 shift, I had to get a 10:15 bus b/c the next one was @1:12!!! And then on the rail front, I was all they could do to convince SEPTA to come to Wilmington and then to Newark and even then you have to get up at 4 am to get to Philly or the outskirts by 8:30. Only about every 3rd train ends in Wilmington and maybe every 5th ends in Newark; and there's absolutely NO RAIL SERVICE HERE ON THE WEEKENDS. sometimes down here, it's quicker to sit in traffic on I95 than to wait for a bus and then a connection.
The state is constantly growing and expanding, there are tons of ex-NYers down here from all the banks moving down and no infrastructure to support it all. I'd give my eye teeth to either move back to NYC or to have even a fraction of the mass transit system you have up there.
Granted I never had to commute down 2nd ave and the most crowded car wsliding doors i've ridden in the last 10 years is an elevator with 7 people on it, I'd take an overcrowded NYC subway train over foot/leg cramps from pumping my brakes any day.
>>> Beacuse having grown up a block away from 205th ST station and Bainbridge Ave, ...<<<
Yes, I agree totally, I live in that neighborhood now and was just talking to a friend of mine the other day about how lucky we are, mass transit-wise, D, B, 4, MN, and Express and local busses all within 6 blocks. It's GREAT
Peace,
ANDEE
I've heard such rantings before. That seems to be the whole thrust behind an effort by the rich to move back into NY nowadays. While the low - to - middle income families are forced out into those very same suburbs to suffer under such erratic service patterns.
I woudn't agree. I have lived in the neighborhood he speaks of for over 20 years and you coudn't blast me outta here.
Peace,
ANDEE
Explain to me just how this "effort by the rich to move back into NY" works and who is behind it. And who or what is forcing low - to - middle income families into the suburbs???
Explain to me just how this "effort by the rich to move back into NY" works and who is behind it. And who or what is forcing low - to - middle income families into the suburbs???
More and more people who could easily afford the suburbs are choosing instead to live in cities. New York is one of several cities that are experiencing this form of revival. Now, it's important to keep things in perspective, the numbers involved aren't huge in absolute terms, but it's a definite trend. 2000 Census data might shed more light on it.
I would have to say that having more affluent people living in cities is good for transit, as they have more clout to demand transit improvements.
(I would have to say that having more affluent people living in cities is good for transit, as they have more clout to demand transit improvements.)
We've had this discussion before. At DCP, I was one who believed that the U.S. practice of dumping the fiscal burden of the poor on those who live near them (higher local taxes, less money for services such as education and parks) was responsible for urban decline. Others argued that virtually everyone wanted a suburban lifestyle, and that was the cause.
I think the data supports my view. Those cities with enough businesses and non-poor people to provide decent -- not good -- services at high -- not crushing -- taxes are thriving. It seems, in reality, that many people (not all but enough) are willing to pay a premium to live in a place where transit is available and you can walk to things.
Will the poor now be pushed out? I think NYC STILL has to worry about having too many poor people who can afford pay little in taxes yet require extensive services, not too few. In 1969 (1970 census data), New York City's poverty rate was at about the national average. NYC was far, far, above the national average in 1989. When the census comes out, if NYC's poverty rate has fallen back to the national average, then I'll worry about the City having less than its share of poor people. But that's not what I expect.
I don't know exactly what I think about all of this, but I'm reminded of the ongoing gentrification of Harlem. How does this trend fit into this discussion?
Mark
I'd give my eye teeth to either move back to NYC or to have even a fraction of the mass transit system you have up there.
If you have eye teeth then lack of mass transit is the least of your problems. (=
Dan
Let me put it another way..I'd give my left arm for it...AND I'M A GUITARIST!!!!!!!!!!!!! That ought to put it in perspective for you.
I'm also a guitarist, and I know what you mean about transit in north Delaware. Not long after I moved to Philadelphia, and I was not yet savvy at using transit in any way, I had to go to Wilmington on a work assignment one Saturday and naively tried to get there on the R2, not knowing it stops at Marcus Hook, PA on weekends. So I ended up walking two and a half miles into Delware where I could pick up a DART bus. I arrived so late that I missed the event I was supposed to attend.
Mark
I'm stunned you even got a Dart bus on a Saturday and I'm even more astounded that you got one that allowed you to board. I've practically had to stand out in the the middle of traffic and the driver STILL WOULD NOT STOP TO LET ME ON.
So do you play mostly acoustic or electric guitar??? i have a 6 and a 12-string Guild acoustic. I play primarily at Sunday Mass.
Rest assured, I waited a very long time for that DART bus. To get home I just shelled out the $15 for an Amtrak ride from Wilmington to 30th St. The trip that took three or four hours going took twenty minutes returning!
I play acoustic and electric. Not long ago I inherited a very interesting old Martin tenor guitar.
Mark
I'm 16 and I am just waiting until I know I am old enough to take the T/O test. So how old do you need to be to take the T/O test? 16? 17? 18? I know alot about signals, (from learning from this site) I just want to take it soon.
I hope someone can answer this
16 to take the test, 18 to be hired.
BTW, the only tests available for 2002 are for Bus Operator and Track Worker. Both make you eligible for the promotional test for T/O.
No word as to the next T/O test, and whether it'll be an open competitive test.
<<<16 to take the test, 18 to be hired.
BTW, the only tests available for 2002 are for Bus Operator and Track Worker. Both make you eligible for the promotional test for T/O.
No word as to the next T/O test, and whether it'll be an open competitive test. >>>
Does this mean that it's not possible to be hired by the MTA as a T/O, that it's a position you have to be promoted to?
-West End Scott
PS- Christopher Rivera, maybe we could start a study group for the T/O test made of all the aspiring-T/O Subtalkers
To answer your question about the T/O being a promotion position. It use to be from a conductor you took the T/O promotion test and became a T/O then a couple a years ago a test came out that regular people who have never been in transit before could now take the test and become a train operator.
A study group....interesting..I wonder how many people would join?
In order to take the open competitive exam, you have to be a college graduate with an associate degree (2 year, junior/community college).
So you'll have to be 20. Unless you drop out, get a GED and then go to college now.
>>>>>>In order to take the open competitive exam, you have to be a college graduate with an associate degree (2 year, junior/community college).
I know that's true to take be hired for Police Officer & Firefighter, but the least required for the TA is a high school diploma/GED.
"...Unless you drop out, get a GED and then go to college now."
If it has already happened, the GED is your way back into getting a decent education.
Never drop out of high school voluntarily - the percentages are against you...
No need for a GED, necessarily.
One of my high school classmates wanted to go to college after his junior year. The high school wasn't interested in playing along and certainly wasn't going to allow him to graduate early. He applied to Columbia anyway and got in. I haven't spoken to him since, but I assume he now holds a college diploma (and possibly an advanced degree) without ever having graduated high school or bothered with a GED.
Oh, I should also mention that a housemate of mine in college simply didn't go to high school -- after 8th grade he went straight to college. He was preparing for a freshman chemistry exam at the same time he was preparing for his bar mitzvah.
Oh, I should also mention that a housemate of mine in college simply didn't go to high school -- after 8th grade he went straight to college.
Same as my younger daughter... she graduated with high honors, Phi Beta Kappa and all that, from Mary Baldwin College last year and has now completed her first year at Georgetown Law.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>>>>>>Does this mean that it's not possible to be hired by the MTA as a T/O, that it's a position you have to be promoted to?
The last test was made available to the public, but rumors are swirling about that it was just a one shot deal.
Advice to all: Take ALL tests that come along. Just getting on the TA payroll is a huge advantage, and then you don't have to worry about the next T/O test because you'll automatically be eligible if it's a promotional only test.
Good luck to you if and when you take it.
While you're pursuing it, though, put in a stellar performance in high school; the TA appreciates a good student and a high school diploma as much as any other organization.
You think 1 A+, 3 A's, 1 B+ and 2 B's will do that trick? Thats what I got at the end of school year.
Maybe the MTA will like that.
I think the TA would like that very much. Congratulations and keep it up!
>>>>>>>While you're pursuing it, though, put in a stellar performance in high school; the TA appreciates a good student and a high school diploma as much as any other organization.
For hourly and supervisory titles such as Conductor, Train Operator, etc., the TA could care less as to an individual's academics.
It's when you reach management, or enter via an administrative title where your academics could really help you.
It's when you reach management, or enter via an administrative title where your academics could really help you.
If you do reach that point, I'm sure that your work habits and experience will matter more than your grades from the cerebral laundromat. College is a different story.
Cerebral laundromat!
LOL, I like that!!! ;-)
Oh, I don't know about that. High school may seem pretty irrelevant to you, but I can think of at least a dozen ways a good student benefits from the efforts he/she puts in to education, even if there is no desire to advancing into management ranks.
Not to mention, of course, that a diploma is the key to keeping one's employment options open in the future. And that hard work and good grades are sometimes their own reward...
I'm not refuting the worth of an education. What I am saying is that if you plan to become an hourly worker.......and remain one for your entire career........then you could be as dumb as dirt. And there are a few examples of that currently existing down here.
"I'm not refuting the worth of an education. What I am saying is that if you plan to become an hourly worker.......and remain one for your entire career........then you could be as dumb as dirt. And there are a few examples of that currently existing down here."
Yeah, but why aspire to it if you can have more? What Imean specifically, is, why aspire to be a "dumb" track worker when/if you have the potential to be smarter and safer about your job? And some of what you can learn in high school can help you with that.
Hourly work is honorable work, deserving of respect - esp. when you take pride in what you do, and try to do the very best job you can every day. And learn something new all the time.
Yeah, but why aspire to it if you can have more? What Imean specifically, is, why aspire to be a "dumb" track worker when/if you have the potential to be smarter and safer about your job? And some of what you can learn in high school can help you with that.
I assume you're not trying to tout the value of promotion, but rather the value of being a smart track worker (or some other hourly job). In that case, sitting in the forced cerebral laundromat/day prison is not a way to learn.
The best way to learn is through self-initiative.
The best way to quash self-initiative is by force.
High school may seem pretty irrelevant to you
but I can think of at least a dozen ways a good student benefits from the efforts he/she puts in to education
What does high school have to do with education? Education is valuable certainly, but how does high school achieve that? Colleges require the canary carpet they give you on the last day of forced cerebral laundromat, but that's the only use for it.
High school, at the minimum, offers you a resource - a way to get formalized instruction, a way to be exposed to ideas in an organized way, and a way to get answers and learn where to look next for an answer you want. And a means to achieve basic literacy.
But you have to put effort in yourself. If you don't pay attention and make an effort, you'll get very little out of it.
Your post suggests that you feel you got very little out of school. Some schools really do stink - and sometimes you have to be willing to accept personal responsibility for your learning. Sometimes both.
If it weren't for high school, I could not have had the career I've had.
High school, at the minimum, offers you a resource - a way to get formalized instruction
"formalized" instruction is the problem. FORCING people to learn only makes them feel it is a chore, and something that has to be done regardless of the benefits. Why do you think so many children in school do not feel that learning is a lifelong experience? Because they've been enslaved, and made to feel that learning is a bad experience that must be pushed out of the way. Little children do not feel that way, they are extremely inquisitive and want to know a lot. It's not a natural force that kills that curiosity.
a way to be exposed to ideas in an organized way
Books, libraries and democratic education is such a way. I can understand that somebody needs to teach someone how to read first, but I never decried the institution of teaching, just the forum within which it's executed.
and a way to get answers and learn where to look next for an answer you want.
Again, there are libraries for that. And much of that learning in high school is useless. Whether it's interesting or not isn't important, it should be up to the student to decide, as in college.
And a means to achieve basic literacy.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE. Why is it that so many people manage to finish high school, or even elementary school, without the ability to read?
The literacy rate in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts was higher before it became the first state to adopt child slavery compulsory schooling than at any time after.
I understand that the following can be a function of parental involvement (I'll be sure to look in on it when I go to the library later this week): The Sudbury Valley School in Framingham, MA-America's first democratic school-does not require their students to learn to read. When they go to school, they can do whatever they want, even play video games. No person has ever left this school without the ability to read.
Children are denied their freedom in the matter of schooling, among other things, not because they cannot handle it, but for the same reasons it was denied to common people, then blacks, then women.
But you have to put effort in yourself. If you don't pay attention and make an effort, you'll get very little out of it.
I am advocating effort, however the effort put in to high school is wasted. Public schooling was designed to churn out a large workforce of drones for industry, it is completely incompatible with a technological society. In fact, until the Great Depression, high school was not even required, it was only made compulsory to take teenagers out of the workforce because of rampant unemployment. So high school isn't about learning, it's about segregation pure and simple.
Your post suggests that you feel you got very little out of school.
I've gotten a lot out of my education, and I will not deny that some of that has been through school. However by that time most people feel that education sucks (since grades 1-8 killed their curiosity).
I have gotten less out of my education than I will get in the future, if only because I have more years left to live than I have already lived.
Some schools really do stink
I went to one of the best public high schools in America.
and sometimes you have to be willing to accept personal responsibility for your learning.
I have accepted personal responsibility, I have found that it is incompatible with drilling and repetition.
Whatever works for you, I guess. There are two many other people who would not benefit from your approach to make it practical.
Maybe it is for you. Obviously, time will tell you if it worked for you or not.
There are two [sic] many other people who would not benefit from your approach to make it practical.
So most people cannot work with freedom, most people need government control over everything? That's never been done before! Especially not in the 1930s and 1940s!
"So most people cannot work with freedom, most people need government control over everything? That's never been done before! Especially not in the 1930s and 1940s!"
Your definition of freedom is very narrow. Standards and a framework can be liberating. Once handed a set of rules, one can feel free to focus on solving a problem within the rules, as opposed to worrying about the rules themselves. Examples: Robert's Rules of Order, computer operating systems, adults who provide guidance to minors (guidance does not equal tyranny, even when the minor does not have a choice).
Out of curiousity, what are you doing now (are you in college?)?
Your definition of freedom is very narrow. Standards and a framework can be liberating.
Same thing that was said in Germany, Italy and Japan in the 1930s. And in the Soviet Union.
Once handed a set of rules, one can feel free to focus on solving a problem within the rules, as opposed to worrying about the rules themselves.
That leads nowhere when the rules themselves are so horribly flawed one can't help to want to escape from them.
Examples: Robert's Rules of Order, computer operating systems, adults who provide guidance to minors (guidance does not equal tyranny, even when the minor does not have a choice).
Or a system of democratic government. In that one, the people whom the government has control over at least have a say over how that government functions. If there is no say, then it is tyranny, plain and simple.
"That leads nowhere when the rules themselves are so horribly flawed one can't help to want to escape from them"
Sometimes rules are flawed. Sometimes the person complaining lacks the maturity, education, and emotional stability to take advantage of them.
Sometimes rules are flawed. Sometimes the person complaining lacks the maturity, education, and emotional stability to take advantage of them.
So the people of the world lack the maturity, education and emotional stability to live in a nice, efficient, fascist world?
That's my tame response, your unwavering disrespect for those younger than you does not merit a tame response. I guess I can control my anger better today. That and I feel sorry for your dementia.
I don't see the fascist world you keep complaining about. All I see is somebody who's free to do a lot of things but complains he can't.
Of course, you realize that by now I've called the anti-complaining police and you will be dragged away shortly to the Detention Center where you will serve your sentence prohibited from thinking, saying, reading or hearing anything about any subway topic except specifically the R-30. :-)
I don't see the fascist world you keep complaining about. All I see is somebody who's free to do a lot of things but complains he can't.
I'm complaining because of the restrictions placed on people just because the Earth hasn't gone around the Sun enough times since they were born.
A. P.,
I'm curious - how old are you?
I ask because I'm 20.
-West End Scott
I'm 18.
Interesting....I'm trying to think back to when I was 18. (actually a hard proposition for someone with my terrible memory).
Honestly, I can't empathize with you that much, though I'm trying. You're 18, so the only thing you can't do right now is buy liquor or rent a car without a heavy surcharge.
I can remember exressing sentiments similar to yours, but only during fights with my parents, the sort of "Why should you rule my life?" stuff. And personally, I still think my parents (try to) control what I do, and influence the kind of person i want to be, more than they rightfully should. I can't think of any time I've expressed the same sorts of feelings against generic lawful authorities. Sure, it would be nice if I could do anything I want whenever I want, but as long as certain rules have valid purposes (i.e. driving age limits) they're by definition reasonable.
Then again, maybe my veiwpoint has been tempered by my now 2 years away at college, where you can get away with pretty much anything, even if technically you're "too young" for it. (As in, why complain if you can cicumvent?)
-West End Scott
PS - when it came to school, I constantly kept my eagerness to learn new things throughout all sorts of bad teachers and bad policies. it was jsut a matter of working wiht what you're given. Anything else you want to learn that's not taught in school you can learn on your own anyway.
Interesting....I'm trying to think back to when I was 18. (actually a hard proposition for someone with my terrible memory).
Honestly, I can't empathize with you that much, though I'm trying. You're 18, so the only thing you can't do right now is buy liquor or rent a car without a heavy surcharge.
I'm not complaining about what I can't do now, I'm complaining about what others under 18 cannot do.
I can remember exressing sentiments similar to yours, but only during fights with my parents, the sort of "Why should you rule my life?" stuff. And personally, I still think my parents (try to) control what I do, and influence the kind of person i want to be, more than they rightfully should.
I am the opposite, I have almost never complained about my parents. Probably because they're liberal as parents. Maybe that's why I have contempt for the regulations under which children have to live.
. I can't think of any time I've expressed the same sorts of feelings against generic lawful authorities. Sure, it would be nice if I could do anything I want whenever I want, but as long as certain rules have valid purposes (i.e. driving age limits) they're by definition reasonable.
Regulations are not necessarily reasonable. They might have a valid purpose though. The driving age is NOT reasonable. It's not like once a person turns 16, they can't just grab keys and get behind the wheel. People have to get licensed to drive, with exams. If nobody under 16 is qualified to drive, they'll just fail the test. If the tests are too weak to weed out bad drivers of ANY AGE, then that's a problem with the tests.
Then again, maybe my veiwpoint has been tempered by my now 2 years away at college, where you can get away with pretty much anything, even if technically you're "too young" for it. (As in, why complain if you can cicumvent?)
I think it's wrong to make people criminals (you're still a criminal if you don't get caught) for what should be a lawful activity.
Anyway, do you live on campus or with parents?
when it came to school, I constantly kept my eagerness to learn new things throughout all sorts of bad teachers and bad policies.
So did I.
it was jsut a matter of working wiht what you're given. Anything else you want to learn that's not taught in school you can learn on your own anyway.
That's one solution, but now that's it's over, I can rail (finally, on topic!!! :-) against it.
I'm 18.
Human years or pig years?
Can you enter as a Conductor or Train Operator, even Bus Operator, and then advance into management positions, like something in the route planning or scheduling department?
How good does a job in the subway Command Center, say trainmaster or something similar (forgive me, I'm not familier with the official titles), pay?
Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>Can you enter as a Conductor or Train Operator, even Bus Operator, and then advance into management positions, like something in the route planning or scheduling department?
Of course you can. From C/R or T/O, you can go to either Dispatcher or Train Service Supervisor. After that, you can enter management as a Deputy Superintendent. In management, it's quite possible to enter a different department (such as buses, etc.--even though you worked on Subways).
How good does a job in the subway Command Center, say trainmaster or something similar (forgive me, I'm not familier with the official titles), pay?
A Console Train Dispatcher in Control Center makes about $70,100 annually. A Deputy Superintendent makes slightly more. The title of trainmaster was eliminated (it was a union position) and was replaced with the title of Line Superintendent (non-union).
Train Service Supervisor??? Are those guys also known as "Motor Instructors", those guys who stand around platforms all day, writing up T/O's for the slightest thing?
I have heard that they can earn in the area of $65,000 a year.
Hey, the new T/O's should be making about $20 an hour, or $41,000 a year, which is more than just about any college student will earn upon entering the work force.
<<>>
And to think I was gonna go to grad school for that Masters Degree in Urban/Regional Planning! And I've always wanted to drive subway trains....
I don't think the MTA has part-time T/O's so I can't do both....hard dilemma.
-West End Scott, being all about the Dubya
>>>>>I don't think the MTA has part-time T/O's so I can't do both
There is no part-time work available for any train service position.
What about night school? There are a lot of students who hold down day jobs and go to school at night. These days, there are also on-line courses.
A friend of mine got a MS in engineering doing telecourses at Univ. of Southern Calif (while working a full-time job). The homework was harder than hell, and the classes covered a lot of material, but he did it (with honors). An understanding wife helped...
TSS's (formerly known as Motor Instructors) will earn at the end of their contract $68,000 annually. And no, they don't write you up for every thing, but you do have a couple of knuckleheads out there.
T/O's earn $23.4175 an hour which equals $48,708.40 annually, with a raise to $24.3525 an hour in November (total $50,653.20).
Night differential of $1.4953 an hour is also paid if any portion of your tour of duty falls between 6 pm and 6 am Monday-Friday and all day Sat, Sun, Hol.
OPTO differential of $2 an hour is also paid for One Person Train Operation runs.
Holiday differential of $2 an hour is also paid if you work on a major holiday (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.).
So if you were to work an OPTO run on Christmas Day, you'd be making $29.8478 an hour.
AND WE EARN EVERY PENNY!!!
Can you enter as a Conductor or Train Operator, even Bus Operator, and then advance into management positions, like something in the route planning or scheduling department?
Can you enter as a conductor or T/O, even B/O, and then advance into the position of chairman?
>>>>Can you enter as a conductor or T/O, even B/O, and then advance into the position of chairman?
If you get down on your knees and blow the Governor.
This might mean the current list is being extended a year (2nd of 4 possible years).
What is the maximum age for any TA test?
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't think that there are any maximums, there were a few guys in their 50's in our T/O class.
A lot more than just signals you have to know, Chris.
You have to know and have skill in a job position, how to operate a track switch,
know where all of your routes are,
know all of the speed limits, timers, etc.,
know where all of the track switches are located,
you have to know what to do during service diversions,
know where and how steep various curves are and located,
where in the position in the platform you have to stop to stop the train safely,
and other things
by common sense brings you to know what a T/A employee should be capable of the duties that they need to carry out.
Knowing a lot about signals, tells me that you may desire to become a future engineer, and not a conductor or some other job.
May Good luck from me and other supporters be with you!
For much more information, including info. for an application and to be eligible, go to the www.mta.nyc.ny.us website and click on the left menu "Employment". It'll even tell you on where you have to live to become employed, and filing a lot of complicated things, just as you would when you first start a new job.
Railfan Pete.
Now this is not on the MTA site, but the map of queens on this site - track map - has the F stopping at 21st Queensbridge and going through 63rd St, as well as 53rd street. Future route change?
Also, why not have the S continue on to Astoria instead of Queensbridge?
>>>>>>>Also, why not have the S continue on to Astoria instead of Queensbridge?
Queensbridge and Astoria are served by two different lines which are not connected.
Because those track maps are updated over time (they've been there for a few years, and sometimes the mapmaker misses some edits.
-Hank
The track maps are not necessarily meant to show service patterns. They show the tracks. I suppose Peter is trying to show predicted usual service patterns when he labels the service and colors the tracks to correspond.
I want to point out a few observations and questions I've had regarding the new B Div pick which started this past Sunday. Obviously, we know about the Manhattan Bridge; the north side has closed and service has switched to the south side of the bridge causing a whole slew of changes. Some questions regarding that.
1. At Ditmars Boulevard, Astoria, are there two dispatchers in the office, one for the N and one for the W since they are two separate lines?
2. Are R40s still being used for the Q express service along Brighton?
3. What was the point of having the W go to Ditmars? Why not have ended it at 21st Street-Queensbridge therefore eliminating the need for a 6th Avenue Shuttle from Queensbridge to Broadway-Lafayette?
Now for some comments. Because there was no B service running along CPW on Sunday, I was able to get my C train from 168th Street to Euclid Avenue on time in both directions. The line-ups were ready for us when we got 59th and 145th Streets. People easily adjusted to there only being the C (although a few decided to wait for that B train. They got their wish Monday morning, I assume). Because I didn't have the B in front of me, I was able to get in front of the E at 50th Street. It was the first time in months that I actually enjoyed working the C on the weekend.
Also, last Sunday, I boarded the train of TonyIND, one of the new T/Os from the street. It was his first day on the road, from what I understand. I was able to talk to him briefly before he started his trip back to Euclid on the C. I must say, he seemed like a very nice guy, and his operations were smooth and superb. He admitted being a little nervous, but that's to be expected when you're starting out on your own for the first time. Keep up the good work, Tony.
Speaking of first day on the roaders, I was on a northbound #5 from Wall St. to Grand Central (redbirds of course) yesterday evening starting around 5:45, at the window of course. Anyway the driver was exceedingly timid. He would stay at least a trainlength's back from a red signal and not accellerate even when the FOLLOWING signal was clearly not red. It took nearly 20 minutes to get from Wall to GCT, and there were no visible trains ahead of us the whole time. He must have been fouling the entire track behind him...
I hate those type of drivers. Normally I get the aggressive drivers (luckilly non have been tripped) soI get home quickly. Yesterday I did the Wall Street to 42nd Street in 12 minutes. I must be lucky
Thes are the type of T/Os who, IMHO, are in the wrong line of work.
Peace,
ANDEE
Additionally, this is the type of T/O the TA produces with their oppressive work practices, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey Dave: I wonder if you was on my train. I was working the 5 and thats the time I usually passed that area. My partner is a veteran so IDK. We did crawl between Brooklyn Bridge and GC.
I can't help you with 1.
2. Yes.
3. With the two Q's terminating on the express tracks at 57th, the W can't run through to Queensbridge. (Queensbridge is only accessible from the express tracks.)
Terminate the Q services on the local tracks. That way you can ensure severe delays on Broadway at all times, rather then just hoping for it.
Dan
Answers to your questions:
1. There is one dispatcher and two assistant dispatchers (one for the N, one for the W) working Ditmars.
2. Yes. Slants on the express, 68's on the local.
3. In addition to the Q's terminating at 57/7 this would leave 57/6 without service.
Check it out.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap.htm
Looks fine to me. Try clearing your cache.
to force your browser (IE or Netscape) to reload a page from a sitwe press shift and at the same tiome click reload.
I was riding a R-142 or R-142A, I forget which line has which, on the 6 today on my way home from work. The two things I noticed were that the AC was kickin' like Jackie Chan on steroids, and the other is a danger. I'm sure you've seen the bars at the ends of the seats. My concern is that small children could stick their heads between them. I know parents should watch out for their kids, but this is New York. I think the TA should look into this. I have heard of this happening. It may seem funny, but it's terrifying to both parent and child.
The AC really is something, probably the best I've felt. Considering it's 1250 degrees outside, it's pretty impresive.
>>>I'm sure you've seen the bars at the ends of the seats. My concern is that small children could stick their heads between them. <<<
This is a very i n t r e s t i n g point. I wonder if they have thought about this possibility?
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably not. They just designed those bars and the doorways they guard to be ergonomically friendly for those people who simply don't understand what "Stand clear of the closing doors please" means.
How's this. "Make sure you are not between the doors as they close." "Stand clear of the closing doors" is a bit vauge. "Stand clear"?
The bars were placed like that to help prevent chain snatching and the slashings that occur.
How wide apart are the bars?
About this wide.
Damned computers, convey no sense of emotion, feeling, or hand gestures.
Dan
I'm sure you've seen the bars at the ends of the seats. My concern is that small children could stick their heads between them. I know parents should watch out for their kids, but this is New York.
And the bars at the end of the seat shoud be 1 foot apart.
i don't think a childs head can go through. from measuring it, its about 8 inches. a child's head is much fatter than that.
Which child's head is larger then that?
Dan
How about they make the bars like the ones on the redbirds?
The AC really is something, probably the best I've felt. Considering it's 1250 degrees outside, it's pretty impresive.
Wow! That's a lot. It's a good thing I'm not going out yet (I'm waiting for a book I reserved to be available), that's a lot even in Rankines.
Are R40 Slants are going to run on (Q) on Weekends?
Thanks.
They did Sunday.
Huh? Those cars we were on for the first train over the bridge were R68's. When did you see R40 slants on the Q on Sunday? Maybe you're thinking of the slants you rode on the N and B on Saturday night?
No they didn't. That was a rare Slant on the B we rode (probably the last one ever), followed by a now-very-common Slant on the N. The Q was a run-of-the-mill R-68.
I stand corrected. Sorry.
Man wouldn't that be nice. Railfan window from Ocean Pkwy into Coney Island. Mmmmmmm
Come to think of it, why can't expresses and locals both turn at Stillwell? They both turn together at 57th.
At 57th they stay in the station for about 30 seconds. If they did that at the other end too, the trains would never be cleaned.
I couldn't resist it anymore, so I ditched work today to check out the new subway services.
Observations:
I got to Queensboro Plaza at 7:05 to ride the entire W line from Astoria to Coney Island. Whomever was conducting the W which arrived at 7:10 was trying to explain how the W will operate in Queens. Lets just say that he not only confused everyone on board the train, but even himself. 2 women panicked as we were turning up towards Beebe Ave because they were led to believe that the W operates as an express "when your going to work". The conductor forgot to think that some people might actually work in Astoria!
The Astoria express is a nice run, but it's useless. As I feared, the W, with plenty of seats still available, whizzed through crowded Astoria local stations. I even saw a man at Beebe Ave. give the T/O the "bird" as the train slowed at the junction of the express and local tracks. Run the W as a local and ditch the silly express run.
Canal St. is absolutley beautiful, completely different than I remember it when it was last in service. It was also full of Chinese people who seem to have adapted quickly to the new services.
The ride on the southern side of the bridge is a much more enjoyable one, as it gives a great view of the Brooklyn Bridge and WTC (I ducked so noone would see me from way up at 2 WTC....LOL).
At CI, I took the Q "local" up Brighton to Sheepshead Bay, then x-ferred to those zippy slants on the express tracks. Time from Sheepshead Bay to 34th St: 32 minutes! Wow.
Saw M trains signed up with the 9th Ave destination, something I haven't seen in 6 years and something I hope will stay after 2004.
Brooklynites are much more intelligent than Bronx or Upper Manhattan riders, or it least it seems that way. Not a single rider I saw on either Q or W line at any time appeared to be confused as to where the train they were on was going. Contrast this to the 6th Ave platform at 34th St, where I had to help a lot of confused D riders on an inbound train, who remained on the train, expecting to continue downtown despite the train being on the uptown track! One guy who was lost asked where he could get the D to Brooklyn. I politely told him the Q was going to Brooklyn on the upper level, but he looked at me puzzled and said he needed the D, because he wanted to go to Ave. M, a "D" stop. I think he's still lost.
Paul was right. Brooklyn riders are better off with the Broadway line using the bridge than the 6th Ave. line. Except for those around Grand St., these disruptions actually benefit a lot of people. It was also very satisfying to see the Broadway BMT in full operation, with crowds at stations not seen since 1988.
All in all, a good day. Tomorrow, back to the office.
A detailed transcript of your report has been fowarded to your employer.
Glad you had a good time 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL
A detailed transcript of your report has been fowarded to your employer.
Glad you had a good time 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Brooklynites are much more intelligent than Bronx or Upper Manhattan riders...<<<
THAT'S debatable.
Peace,
ANDEE
I made that statement tounge firmly in cheek. I just found it amusing how quickly Brooklyn riders adapted, as opposed to the still bamboozeled upper Manhattan/Bx. B/D riders. Just as I had anticipated.
Yeah, but they were forced to adapt closer to home IYKWIM.
Peace,
ANDEE
[I made that statement tounge firmly in cheek.]
Yes, but who's cheek was involved? ;-D
Queens subway riders also get confused quite easily.
Most confused riders were at 59/Lex Queens bound. The only two people that asked me for help were on the Queens bound W.
[Brooklynites are much more intelligent than Bronx or Upper Manhattan riders, or it least it seems that way.]
A very astute observation, my man.
;-D
BMTman
For Brooklynites, it is back to the future!
Chaohwa
keep it up!
I usually do!!
:-)
More intelligent? OH, YEAH.... Ask me any subway question. ANY! ANY, damn you! Oh, sorry.
I am on the phone with your boss right now. Just kidding. Believe me, I was tempted to do it this week. However, I'm off Friday, and since I don't wish to catch a massive heart attack in the heat, I'll wait. Thursday and Friday will be much cooler. What is it outside now? Last I heard it was 1655 degrees, although I think it's gotten cooler. I turned on my A/C, and it said, "I'm not even gonna try."
Brutal here in northern Nassau, low 90s, while observations from the south shore were in the low 80s. Whenever we get the S-SW wind it is BRUTAL here in the northland.
Be thankful, at least you don't have to deal with unshoveled sidewalks in "what's a shovel" Sea Cliff, right?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, it seems Sea Cliff isn't nice in any season! :-0
it said, "I'm not even gonna try
You should get an A/C like ours. It's the largest window model that Friedrich makes that runs off 110v current and due to 50 year old wiring in our building, it blows fuses at an alarming rate. It will, however, keep the house at meat locker temperature in 6,000ş heat.
Eat your heart out.
Dan
Hi. I had asked who you were before, because I work at CCNY. I don't know if you answered me. If you want to remain private, I understand. My e-mail addres is here. If you want to e-mail me, that's OK. If you want to reamain annonymous, I understand.
Tony :)
What's a job that someone with limited vision could get at the TA?
It would largely depend on how limited. The TA does fall under ADA guidelines and so it is required to make "reasonable accomodations" for physically challanged persons. The best bet is to go to 130 Livingston, 1250 B'Way or 370 Jay Street. Read the job postings and if you see one (no pun intended) that you meet the qualifications for & could do with only minimal accommodation, just apply. What have you got to lose.
Each week, at least a dozen new postings come out. Some are open to current NYCT employees but others are open to al who care to apply.
Chairman of the board. 8-))
Sorry, you left your self opem w/ that one
Peace,
ANDEE
Har, har, hardy, har, har!
Nothing in train service...
-Hank
There are jobs out there, but the would be something like Supervisior, line supervisior etc. You can get them, you just have to know the right people.
That's almost the wrong question to ask.
What can you do? What kind of education do you have? People skills? College degree? Work experience? Special talents? Work ethic?
Answer those questions first- the limited eyesight just might turn out to be a non-issue!
T/O. Just keep the train moving. It'll stop by itself if there's a red signal.
"Just keep the train moving. It'll stop by itself if there's a red signal."
This is true, but running a red signal is viewed as an EXTREMELY serious offense by NYCT supervision.
David
Anyone here who's interested in working for NYC Transit should go to this link:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/hr/index.html
The TA has over 55,000 employees, and not all of them are train service employees. The TA is always looking for persons to fill administrative and clerical positions (such as in the payroll department or with system safety) for those with varying experience.
Copy and paste the following link (posted earlier by David) to see some available positions, and good luck on your search:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/hr/index.html
My friend Joe and I are going to the TA dinner in Brooklyn Monday. Joe got an invite from a friend. I like talking the the old time T/O's and employees. Anyone else here going?
OK. Last post for now. Don't mean to hog the board, but to keep things organized, I like to make different posts. Hope no one minds. Anyone going to be at the Nostalgia Train this Sunday? Last one this year. :-( (sniff) I hope for nice weather. In June, we hasd a typhoon out in the Rockaways.
Happy Birthday 2 Me..
For real? Happy birthday to you and it's mine too! Awesome!
This is weird...it's mine on Monday. Happy birthday to us all. (Especially me.)
Dan
Happy Birthday to you. Ride the 1, 9 or 2. Happy BIRTHDAY to the train buffs, Happy Birthday to youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!! (Dogs howl, glass breaks, nooses tighten)
Well last Museum Trip.
I'll be on the "D-Types to the Docks" in August.
According to the Continental Airlines web site, a one-way ticket on NJT from Newark Airport to NY Penn will be approximately $10.
Seems much higher than the one-way fare from either Newark Penn or Elizabeth. Does anyone know whether this is accurate?
CG
where on the website did you find this?
Go to "http://onepass.continental.com". Then click "News and Offers" on the left. Newark Airtrain is the first item under News and Offers.
CG
Yes, the PA is charging NJT a per-passenger fee at the newark airport station.
And then the PA will charge the passenger again to use the monorail.
Ain't monopolies wonderful?
You've got to be kidding me! If that's the price the tickets are going to be, I recommend purchasing one to Elizabeth and detraining early (unless there's a guy who checks tickets as you board the monorail).
Isn't it only $2.50 for a ride from Newark Penn Sta to New York Penn Sta?
yes. Roundtrip during non-peak hours is $3.50
In addition to making your travel from the airport to Manhattan a breeze, the rail service significantly improves transportation to the airport from Manhattan. And, while waiting at Penn Station for the next train, Presidents Club® members and those with a same-day BusinessFirst® ticket can work or relax in the on-site lounge, equipped with Internet access and telephones.
When you arrive at the Newark International Airport Station, you’ll feel as if you’re in the airport. Continental representatives will be on hand so you can check in for domestic flights, check your luggage, and obtain your boarding pass. Then, you can proceed to the monorail, which will take you to the appropriate airport terminal for boarding.
The next time your itinerary includes travel between our Newark hub and Manhattan, let the convenient new rail service take the hassle out of your commute.
Looks like the Newark International Airport Rail Station will open this fall. According to this article, Newark Airport rail station is a place far better than I thought it would be!
At the end of the news, it says 'between Midnight and 5 a.m., the monorails operate every 10 to 24 minutes.' The problem here is that NJT trains will not be running between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m. here. I guess the airport passengers will make the rail station an airport (it feels like an airport the news says) to sleep for a few hours until the first train arrives at around 4:45a - 4:50am to New York.
The prices I am seeming are accurate. The rail fare is $2.50 one way from Newark Penn to New York. $3.50 round trip.
The fare from Broad St. Elizabeth to New York is $4.50 O-W and $6 round trip.
Is $10 reasonable?
I personally don't think so.
NJT fares are based on the distance traveled, and $10 one way from Newark Airport to New York is NOT based on distance traveled, but is the fare for the accomodations given with Continental Airlines employees and such.
My question is,
are ALL NJT trains going to stop at Newark Airport Rail Station? (including Saturdays, Sundays, and Major Holidays)
What is the frequency of trains stopping at Newark Airport Sta. going outbound to Trenton and not New York?
I really don't want express trains to stop there because that would just delay the 'express' process, esp. after outbound trains from midday- early afternoon to the train that departs out of NYP at 9:40PM are ALL EXPRESS to Trenton, also the 5:03 PM 'special express train' from New York to Trenton in 3 stops! Local stops are accomodated by the North Jersey Coast Line during these times.
Answers to these two questions are greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
I hope that most NJ Transit trains, both Corridor and Coast Line stop there. This will offer convenient airport access not only from Manhattan but from many areas of Central and South Jersey. And, when the Secaucus Transfer (hopefully will be renamed Manhattan Transfer) opens, swift airport access will be available from virtually all of northern New Jersey.
It just came to my mind, but I think Comet IV rail cars should accomodate the Newark Airport Rail Station. These rail cars will give the frequent flyers a taste of what train traveling is like, even for an excursion trip. The Comet IV cars are one of the best quality and best cars that I've ever ridden on. It's exterior slender, shiny aluminum body and the colorful accomodations on the inside just brings the traveler to his luxurious senses all the way to New York!
It actually might be a good idea.
Fortunately, I've seen more Comet rail cars on the Northeast than I have expected. Comet 3's are a little bit older, but I think they're ok too.
Railfan Pete.
The interior colors of the IV are, IMHO a bit too feminine, while the color coordination of the III is a bit, well, uh . . . not attractive!
Whatever happened to that refreshing and soothing green and blue seats on the Arrow III's! They've been replaced with *brown*! Ugh.
Yesterday I rode on one of the [blue-band] Metro-North Shoreliners ("High Tor") on the Bergen County line on the 4:31 Ridgewood Local from Hoboken.
The blue and red seats was a nice change from the drab tan seats of the NJT-owned equipment.
I know the colors are feminine. I guess we will have to wait for the Comet V's to come out next year.
I saw one of the MTA Metro-North Railroad Comet cars @ Hoboken Terminal, and the cars on the side had someone's name written on it. It's their first, middle, and last name. I saw about two of those connected together with a GP-40-PH NJ TRANSIT locomotive attached at the front.
1) Whose names are written on the sides of the Metro-North Comet coaches?
2) Who are those people?
: )
Railfan Pete.
Here is a Metro North car roster, including all the names on their Shoreliner Is (as well as CDOT's).
The names are usually:
1. Town served by the train.
2. Famous individual in NY (or CT)'s history.
3. Name of a train station.
4. Something related to the state (ie: The Connecticut Yankee).
Several names have been changed over time, such as the Montrose and all the NJ ones with town names.
Is the Brighton line done?
MSTS?
Microsoft Train Simulator
The latest trend with the LIRR seems to be putting two locomotives on each end of their diesel trains. Yesterday, I saw DE30's 414 & 418 bracketing a four car trainset on a eastbound Montauk express. Since no one here likes to stop at grade crossing, they're probably doing it for crash protection. I only see the Greenport shuttle use a single engine/cab control combo. Also, I saw a Jordan spreader parked at Riverhead with the other museum pieces. It's painted grey and orange, so I assume it is retired.
Crash protction? more likely to be engine-failure protection. Any one of these piles of scrap metal can barely move a 4 car train. I wonder if having a second engine on it will help at all.
"Also, I saw a Jordan spreader parked at Riverhead with the other museum pieces. It's painted grey and orange, so I assume it is retired."
Retired and in the collection of the RR Museum of LI
Bill "Newkirk"
Since some east-end trains during the summer need the power of an extra engine or two, if you see an extra engine on a short train, you may be seeing the extra engine being returned to a point where it's needed.
They might have run out of cab cars. Aren't the 400's the dual modes ?
They probably don't trust them on their own. They have to run them into Penn Station with one on each end per Amtrak reg so they don't gap on crossovers.
Aren't the 400's the dual modes ?
The 500's are the dual modes. The 400's are diesel only.
DM-30 500-522
DE-30AC 400-422
C-3 Bi-Level (T Car) 4000 Series (Even Numbered)
C-3 Bi-Level (TT Car)4000 Series (Odd Numbered)
C-3 Bi-Level Cab Car 5000 Series (Even & Odd Numbered)
Befor I start,I put 2 months of reaserch in this just to let you know.
And since the Boadway tracks are back in use,this seems like the best time to do this.
Soul purposes(befor July 22 2001)
B:West End Local,4th and 6th avenue express,Central Park west local.Serves skipped stations for D
D:Brighton/Concourse local,6th ave/Central park West express.Rush hour Concourse express
Q:Brighton/6th ave express,63 street connector
Soul purposes(today)
B:Cetral park west local,Serves skipped D stations
D:Central park west express,Concourse express
Q:Broadway express,Brighton express/local
W:4th ave/Broadway/Astoria express,West End local.
Future(In 2004)
B:6th ave express(If V is not given that title),West end local
D:Same as today,May replace Q as Brighton Express
Q:Same as today.Unknown about Brighton service,May see Queens service again?
V:6th avenue local(May be express in 2004),Queens local
W:May replace M in brooklyn or never see revenue service again.
This is obviously to see what happens when the Bridge construction is over.These are only rumors.
The original plan for the "W" is to run between Astoria & Whitehall St during rush hour along Broadway line beginning(probably) 2004 when MannyB in full service. Also heard that theirs a plan to terminate "M" trains @ 95 Street Bay Ridge when MannyB repairs is over could it be true?
who are you people?
WHO are you?
"You" being who? The people who posted that message? Subtalkers in general? The men in white coats sneaking up behind you with hypodermic needles and a strait jacket?
Dan
N,Q,R,W,:In 57 street right after the express tracks rise to 63 steet,there is a trackway that emerges from the local tracks.Possibly for an easier connection to the 63 street tunnel for local trains.
Q,W,Grand street:After the trains enters the portal from the bridge,there are 2 hidden trackways going south right befor Canal street(I guess the one befor Grand street is for the 2nd avenue line.
2:When the tracks turn towards east 180 street,there is a stub going towards Boston Road(If that stub was built going towards White plains East 180 street would be useless,by the way,I didn't see any stubs
from the 3rd avenue line).
4,5:There is a hidden tunnel seen befor 138 street which emerges from the express track after 125th.
N/Q/R/W: This probably refers to the stubs that were supposed to turn west and then north under Central Park West. The BMT had its eye on such a route before the City decided to build what became the IND.
Q/W/Grand Street: This probably refers to the original routing of the "A/B" tracks on the Manhattan Bridge, which was to the Broadway Line's Canal Street "bridge" station. Remember, when subway service over the bridge started, the "H" tracks connected to the Nassau Street Loop, and the "A/B" tracks connected to Broadway.
#2: This is probably the E. 180th Street/Bronx Park spur, on which service ended in, I believe, 1952.
#4/#5: not sure
David
The first one you mentioned was for a planned Upper West Side BMT line extension never built (the city later built the IND CPW line instead). The stub near the curve to E180th St led directly to the old (and gone since 1950) Bronx Park terminal.
These aren't hidden at all, they are fairly well known (to most of us anyway).
>>N,Q,R,W,:In 57 street right after the express tracks rise to 63 steet,there is a trackway that emerges from the local tracks.Possibly for an easier connection to the 63 street tunnel for local trains. <<
Way back in the early days of the IRT and BMT, the BMT thought that they might get the Lexington Avenue line so they made a provision for a track/tunnel heading. As we all know Belmont and the IRT got it.
>>Q,W,Grand street:After the trains enters the portal from the bridge,there are 2 hidden trackways going south right befor Canal street(I guess the one befor Grand street is for the 2nd avenue line.<<
That is the old connection to/from the Nassau Street Loop. Prior to the 1967 opeing of the Chrystie St connection which allowed 6th Av trains to operate over the MB, the Broadway trains operated over the north side tracks and the Nassau Loop over the south side tracks.
>>2:When the tracks turn towards east 180 street,there is a stub going towards Boston Road(If that stub was built going towards White plains East 180 street would be useless,by the way,I didn't see any stubs from the 3rd avenue line). <<
That was the leftover from the Bronx Park spur. All the stubs from the 3rd Av Line have been removed EXCEPT for the lower level at Gun Hill Road.
>>4,5:There is a hidden tunnel seen befor 138 street which emerges from the express track after 125th<<
That is not a hidden tunnel. That is the tracks to/from the Pelham Bay line.
What was going on around 4:30 this afternoon? I was joyriding on a diamond-Q out to Brooklyn and was planning on crossing over at DeKalb for another Q back. I wanted to get home this week, so I returned to Manhattan on the boring IRT instead.
At Canal, there was another diamond-Q sitting in the station with the doors open. On the bridge, we passed four trains: a W, a diamond-Q, a W, and a circle-Q. There was a W just inside the portal. I think there was also something on the DeKalb bridge track, but it's hard to tell with that wall in the way. (At the other end, I wasn't really paying attention, but I don't think anything was stacked up on the Broadway express track.)
What was going on? Did they send any trains via tunnel just to get by the jam? (Even if not, isn't it nice that there's a way to get around jams now?)
BTW, we took the first diverging switch into DeKalb again.
This morning, as per my usual practice, I woke up to The Weather Channel. (Informative enough to get my attention when I'm half-asleep, but not as annoying or obnoxious as the local news.) During their Travel Planner section, they actually gave a heads-up about the Manny-B reroutes on the NYC subway, even going so far as to show which "new" route bullets correspond to which "old" bullets. They may as well have been speaking in tongues for anybody not familiar with the NYCTA system, but it was still refreshing to see some coverage given to transit modes other than airports and interstate highways. Way to go!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hey! That's my line!
TWC knows that NYC is its largest market (both in terms of local viewers, travelers heading there, and people interested in how the weahter there is affecting their friends/relatives). That's why you'll often see them concentrating on weather/events there.
I'm looking forward to an AE then Q&W ride tomorrow :-)
As most of you know, I've recently started a new job in which my official function is to inspect houses in the vincinity of O'Hare Airport as they are being soundproofed by the city. I work with other architects and some acoustical consultants, and so far the job is going very well.
In reality, though, we end up spending most of the time standing around in people's front yards and trying to identify the aircraft passing above our heads. (Things are fairly slow right now and one can only spend so many hours a day watching a guy caulk window frames.) One of our acoustical guys happens to be an aviation nut, and knows as much about commercial airliners as some SubTalkers know about subway trains. Not only can he identify most airplanes just by the sounds of their engines, he can also identify the serial number of each engine and also inform us that there's a screaming infant in seat 17A, and then give us the entire history of that particular model. All this before the plane even comes into view.
He's managed to train about three of us into identifying various aircraft. (MD80's are long and skinny; 727's are loud as hell and have the three engines in the back, 737's are short and fat, 747's are huge beasts that block out most of the sky as they swoop in for a landing, Airbus plans are more organic-looking and have a unique sound...)
As for myself, I'm blessed with the unique ability to identify trains on a nearby set of railroad tracks just by the sound of the horn at a grade crossing: Whether it's a freight train or a Metra commuter train, and if it's Metra, whether it's in push-mode going-inbound or pull mode going outbound.
Between the bunch of us, we've probably become the most annoying group of people to be around for those who have no interest at all in planes or trains. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
That leaves me to wonder, are their boat and ship fans as well? Or maybe even heavy constuction equipment fans. Of course those bird fans are increasing in number.
Yes, there are ship spotters on the Great Lakes.
That leaves me to wonder, are their boat and ship fans as well? Or maybe even heavy constuction equipment fans.
You'll find plenty of boat fans at any marina or yacht club. :-)
My father, in addition to being somewhat of a railfan, has a thing for sailboats and Naval warships. (Pretty much covers the spectrum there, huh?) I love sailboats myself, and hope to own a very large one someday.
My youngest brother at one point seemed to have a thing for heavy construction equipment when he was a kid, but I'm not sure if he still has that interest or if it was just a phase.
A friend of mine from church, in addition to being a railfan and bus fan, also has an interest in fire trucks.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That leaves me to wonder, are their boat and ship fans as well? Or maybe even heavy constuction equipment fans.
I like watching big cargo ships, in fact the best thing about the Staten Island ferry is all the ships you see in the lower harbor :-)
I think that auto carriers are the most impressive of the big ships, as they look something like floating shoe boxes.
Have you seen the Navy's cargo ship in the navy base on Staten Island? That thing is gigantic. It is used to carry such things like tanks and trucks to the theater fronts.
All through grammar school I had a friend who was just as big a plane nut as I was a railfan. Our schoolyard was in an approach path for LaGuardia, and 9/10 planes lowered their gear right above us. Canadian airlines (or whatever the one with the red parks department symbol is) was the most frequent, followed by USAir, and once or twice I saw TWA, Continental, Delta, and American. Those were rare, though. Anyway, thanks to this friend I knew how to determine the 7x7 series (by the number of engines), the airbuses, and the occasional DC-9.
When I worked at Hughes in El segundo CA I learned to tell an axial-flow turbojet from a turbofan, take-off thrust from reverse-thrust, and of course I knew all my airplane types.
Kennedy is a great place to plane-spot. You get airplanes found almost nowhere else. Concordes (back soon), Tupolev's, Ilyushins, an occasional French Caravelle, a British Trident (I am not referring to the L1011), a DC-8 in freighter service, even a Convair 880 or 990 relatively recently. And of course all the more common airplanes...
Kennedy is a great place to plane-spot. You get airplanes found almost nowhere else. Concordes (back soon), Tupolev's, Ilyushins, an occasional French Caravelle, a British Trident (I am not referring to the L1011), a DC-8 in freighter service, even a Convair 880 or 990 relatively recently. And of course all the more common airplanes...
Tupolevs and Ilyushins? I'm surprised, I thought that by now even Aeroflot was using western equipment. I also didn't think that any Caravelles were left in service.
I'll be at Kennedy on Friday of next week, starting a 3-day trip to Seattle. I'll look for some of the exotic stuff.
I don't think there are any more scheduled passenger Caravelle flights. I could be wrong though.
The Soviet planes (Tupolev's, Ilyushins, et al) are almost carbon copies of Western counterparts.
For example, the Ilyushin IL-62 is identical to the Viscount VC-10.
The Tupolev TU-154 looks like a beefed-up 727.
The Ilyushin IL-86/96 are similar in appearance to Airbus equipment.
And the Tup. TU-204 is basically a 757.
But don't let the "Soviet" title mislead you. Many of the Soviet planes are damn good peices of equipment. It's just that most of the airlines that operate them have maintenance departments that consist of little more than chewing gum, super glue, and duct tape.
Excellent point. The TU-154 was designed to fly from relatively unimproved airports. It was also designed to tolerate a certain amount of abuse and neglect (eg if your mechanic hasn't shown up for work this week, the airplane will still fly).
For example, the Ilyushin IL-62 is identical to the Viscount VC-10.
That would be the Vickers VC-10. It and the 707 were always my two favourite airplanes to watch, although I never had the opportunity to fly on either one.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Aeroflot did indeed purchase Airbuses and 767's, and re-equipped some Ilyushin-96's with Pratt and Whitney engines. But the Russian equipment is still flying. In Russia, the standard plane on domestic routes is the Tu-154 (looks like a 727).
I think the remaining Caravelles either see cargo service, or they are flown on charters by the poorer third-country airlines, esp. African carriers from former French colonies. They are rare these days...
Aircraft-watching is a lot of fun. We have relatives in Levittown, in Nassau County, who live more or less under the flight path into Kennedy Airport. Whenever we're over there I like to watch the incoming planes. Most of them are just low enough that I can identify the airline markings. And I live not too far from Long Island-MacArthur airport, close enough to get good views of the planes (mostly Southwest or Delta 737's, and some USAir turboprops).
The most impressive airplane I saw, on the ground rather than in flight, was a Russian transport at Bradley Airport in Connecticut several years ago. I don't remember its name, but it was said to be the largest airplane in the world, bigger than even a C5A Galaxy.
It was an An-1(27?) Condor.
Close.
The Antonov 124 Condor is larger than the C-5, and able to carry a larger diameter load. Range and speed with average payload is inferior to the C-5, however.
The An-225 "Dream" is the largest - six engines. Range on internal fuel sucks, though, so the only transatlantic trip it could take would be when it's not carrying anything...
Hey, I'm a big time airplane/airline buff myself.
Ever since a kid, I loved going to the airport (it was usually to drop off or pick up a relative) and as we walked through the terminal and passed each gate, I would gawk at all the airplanes out on the tarmac and wish that I was a passenger on each one of them!
We fly a couple times a year and often times while in the departure lounge, I still stand by the large windows and take a look around. My father also has a pretty good interest in airplanes and we often stand by the window and point things out to each other then proceed to discuss the different varients of each aircraft, the history of them, future plans, etc.
Another thing I find myself doing on occasion is looking at an aircraft, either on the ground or in the air, and trying to visualize just what is going on inside the cabin at that moment.
Another thing I used to do was to see how many different airlines I could spot. I actually made a list of each airline I ever heard of, but like most things I made when I was young, it's nowhere to be found . . .
so yes, it's definately possible to be a transit buff and airline buff at the same time!
MD-80's are basically DC-9's.
In fact, they are.
MD-80 is the common designation for the DC-9-80.
The DC-9-95/MD-95 is now the B-717 after Boeing purchased the line from McDonnel Douglas.
727's are "loud" because, well, they're airplanes!
But that's because most 727's have not had their engines either "hush-kitted" or replaced with quieter, more efficient engines, but most airlines are opting to replace their 727's with new equipment.
There are 3 "generations" of 737's
The 1st is the -100 and -200 (1960's thru early 1980's - engines are narrow and long).
The 2nd is the -300, -400, -500 (1980's and still produced today, I think - engines are short and wide).
The 3rd is the -600, -700, -800 (releases within the past couple years - engines also short and wide).
A 727 is loud because it uses turbojet engines, vs. turbofans on other airplanes. The noise you hear is comprised of sonic booms as the supersonic exhaust leaves the engine, providingthe thrust. More modern airplanes use high-bypass turbofans, where most of the exhaust is bypass air travelling at subsonic speeds around the engine core. Most of the thrust is provided through the fan. This makes the airplane much quieter.
Hah! I loved this thread so much I couldn't help searching around the internet for something. Check this out:
AirTalk!
Doesn't look has 'hardcore' as this board, but similar. And pretty up-to-date too.
Wouldn't it be funny if we started having guests from their board here, and vice versa? Maybe we can arrange a Sub-Air/Talk Field Trip?
WS
<< Maybe we can arrange a Sub-Air/Talk Field Trip? >>
The MTA had that idea years ago on the JFK Express..."Take the train to the plane."
Maybe we can arrange a Sub-Air/Talk Field Trip?
Sounds like......
Only one problem. No fantrips. Can't hop off on a cloud for a photo op/runby. No AirFan Window. Can't ride up front.
Planes can be ridden, spotted in the air or on the ground. That's it.
Or flown in many simulators...
Or flown for real, or chartered (same as a fantrip if it's a classical plane).
I have a Even better website called
I have a Even better website called Airliners.net
I occansionally lurk at www.airliners.net. They have a bunch of different message boards with lots of posters. I am mainly intrested in anything that has to do with Hartsfield and/or airport construction, so I'm pretty limited in my interest. They also have an ungodly amount of photos, seachable any way you want.
Well, I've been an airplane fan LONG before I was ever interested in railroading, and to this day, I'll spend serious time watching arriving aircraft whenever I have nothing to do on a warm summer's day. Of course, I also carried this hobby to its logical conclusion and got my private pilot's license a few years ago (I fly out of Republic airport in Farmingdale).
I don't suppose the TA gives out private T/O certificates, do they ??
In the Chicago area, you might see a whole bunch of them stopped (illegally) on the road that roughly parallels runway 22L (I think it's Irving Park Rd., but I could be mistaken).
There are a few places around Kennedy but not many. Best spot I've found so far is near the threshold of 22R, near the roate point of 31R, up by US Customs. Good closeup view of aircraft taxiing for 22R departure. I've not found any good place to watch arrivals on the 4s or 13R/31L.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway, and who can accurately spot just about anything within 2 miles of touchdown.
>>> In the Chicago area, you might see a whole bunch of them stopped (illegally) on the road that roughly parallels runway 22L <<<
A great place to view aircraft arriving at LAX is at the end of the runway which was shown in the opening scene of the movie "Easy Rider." (Be sure to have hearing protection)
Tom
I'm an airfan myself. I photograph different aircraft with different paint. Remember People Express, or New York Air, or the orginial UAL paint? It's like remembering R10 under CPW, or the R11/34 on the West End, or the D on the Culver el.
Phil Hom
>>> One of our acoustical guys happens to be an aviation nut, and knows as much about commercial airliners as some SubTalkers know about subway trains. <<<
When I was a kid I was interested in aircraft, but the advent of the jet age spoiled it for those not near an airport. Back then, when you heard an aircraft engine you looked up to see what type of plane was passing over. If you had binoculars you could read the registration number on the wing. If you went to an airport you could watch the planes take off and land from an open observation platform.
I even had a game which had cards with front, side and bottom aircraft silhouettes on them, and the object of the game was to shuffle the cards and identify the planes (such as Vals, Zekes, Bettys, Ju88s, Me109s, FW190s. Lancs, Lightnings, Dakotas and Flying Forts) from their silhouettes. Fortunately, I never had occasion to see those silhouettes "live."
Tom
I noticed that the doors don't immediately open upon arrival at stations. C/Rs seem to follow some ritual of pointing in the air and counting before they press the button to open the doors.
Is there some interlock they are waiting for the T/O to release before the doors can be opened?
Michael
P.S I wish spell check was available for this board.
The Ç/R's point because some T/A management person visited the Japanese subway system and saw that they had a complex system of pointing and gesturing things to convey information and ensure safety. This management dude decided to dumb this down to NY's standards and we ended up with a totally meaningless gesture: The C/R is required to point to the conductor board before opening the doors. This is so that he does not open the doors when the board is not directly opposite the cab (which means there has been an overshoot or undershoot). If an overshoot has occurred, and the doors were opened and people fell out onto another track or (if an el) 30 feet to the ground, management could yell to the conductor: "How could you open the doors? You pointed at the board, didn't you?"
Excuse me. When I read your post I laughed. Out loud. Very much. This must be some sort of joke intended to amuse me, rather then a serious post. Right? Please say I'm right. Please?
Dan
Hello Dan:
Wrong! It's a serious question. Maybe the answer is humorous, but it's really done. See the response prior to your response.
Michael
Where and what is the conductor board?
Michael
Conductor board is that zebra-striped thing the conductor pointed at. It is supposed to line-up with the conductor's position, if the C/R doesn't have a board, he's not supposed to open up unless the T/O gives him two buzzes.
...eeeeat cookie!!
::thrack!!::
read fortune!
Or if many of you noticed we point with our middle fingers as if saying F U MTA .
Yeah. And remember what happens if management catches you doing that.
A quick lead-in: first, I'm new here and what I've read just blows me away. And, second, maybe someone's already brought the next two things up.
Anyhow, today I rode a new 6 train (R-142, I guess) and it still hadn't had its automatic transfer announcements updated ("Next stop is Union Square-14th Street, change for the 4, 5, N, R, and L trains"), but then I saw another uptown one pull into 28th Street, stop, and have the doors open onto the express tracks, close the doors, and pull out. Had they maybe updated the announcements and were testing them?
Second, why is the Grand St. shuttle on the (formerly) uptown express track at Broadway-Lafayette? Does it switch off with the orange-S? It seems much more confusing that way.
Thanks
Seth
Answer to question #1: The automatic announcements haven't been updated yet to reflect the new service pattern. Conductors have been ordered (by way of a Bulletin) to announce transfers themselves at stations that have new services operating.
Answer to question #2: We've got several threads going about this one right now. Basically, there's no switch between Broadway-Lafayette and Grand Street. Whatever track it's on is the one it stays on.
David
<>
Thanks. But is there a switch between W 4th and Broadway-Lafayette? In that case, 6th Av. shuttles could pull into the uptown express track (track 4, I think), and Grand St. trains could be shifted to the downtown express track (track 3?). I'm only asking because, I saw people race down the stairs, hearing a train pull into that track, and clamber on, immediately to get off once they learned the train they were getting onto wasn't going to Grand St. but back uptown.
Seth
If you have questions about tracks and switches, you might
want to look over the system track maps which are on
www.nycsubway.org
Some of the strangest Amtrak coaches I've ever seen, Amtrak Beech Grove and Corridor Clipper (AMTK 10001, 10002) were spotted in Washington DC's Union Station. See them at www.trainweb.org/nyrail/amtrak/special_cars.
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Neat photos!
I think I've seen the Beech Grove at Union station.
Twice, I'm on an R-40 Q, it pulls into the uptown platform at Canal, and I have to climb over a low railing to get out. What's up with this?
The platforms at Canal Street are 615 feet long, and a 10-car train of 60-footers is 605 feet long (because the cars are actually 60.5 feet long). There should be room. Unless some of the platform space was recently taken up by a Relay Room or something like that (I haven't been through there in a while), evidently the Train Operator stopped short of the stop marker, but closely enough to it that the Conductor's board was in front of the Conductor (or the Conductor wasn't paying attention...I don't know; I wasn't there).
David
There's a railing at the very end of the platform. I don't know what purpose it serves, but it blocks the R-40 door, which is closer to the end of the train than the R-68 door.
I expect that within a week, either the railing will be gone or the stop markers will be moved. (But will the first R-68 door then be in the tunnel ahead?)
Is this a safety hazard or is does the railing stop anybody from falling under the train? The fact that the door isn't on legal platform seems a little scary to me. Not that I'd be scared, but if somebody isn't paying attention something would happen, but I'm assuming from how calm everybody is about this that the problem can't be that big.
The railing is on the platform, parallel to the tracks. It's all the way at the end. As I said, I don't know why it's there.
There are a few other railings along the platforms, where some of the various staircases come down. I thought they'd be removed in time for actual train service, but I guess not. They're far enough from the doors that people should be able to squeeze around them.
The railings are directly across from the platform exits. So if someone came running onto the platform (perpendicular to the tracks) at full speed, they would smack into the railing instead of falling down onto the tracks. I assume these railing were put there for that exact reason while it was being used as a connection between two of the lines at Canal St. When my nb Qexp pulled in to Canal this morning, i was at the rear of the last car, so I saw the door open and the railing right there. There were also a bunch of MTA bigwhiggs examining the railing and trying to figure out what to do. I guess they couldn't come up with anything becuase the railing is still there. Ever heard of a hacksaw?!?
I know why the railings by the staircases are there.
But why that railing at the very end? The nearest staircase is at the other end of the brief vaulted ceiling. (Yes! There's a vaulted ceiling where the J/M/Z crosses over.)
Is the railing new? If not, then this should only be a problem if the T/O doesn't stop far enough forward, since similar 600-foot 10 car 60-foot trains (R-27/30/32s on the N, Q and QB lines) would have been stopping at Canal Street during the 1960s, 70s and early 80s with the door locations in the same spot.
Are the doors on those cars in the same location as in the R-40? (Was the N running R-40's in 1990?)
I think the other railings were added shortly after the N stopped using that station in 1990. I don't know about the one at the end.
The slants weren't on the N in 1990, but the R-32s and the R-27/30s before them and the R-42s that followed had the same offset door placements as the R-40s, so any problem with a railing at Canal that affected one model should have affected all of them.
Are all offset doors offset by the same distance? The R-40 door is quite close to the car end.
If the railing was first installed after 1990, the point is moot.
Going by the seats between the doors and the end of the cars, both of which are designed for two persons, the distance on the Slants and on the R-27/30 through the 38/42s should be the same, give or take an inch or two. The slanted end may move the doors in slightly, but not enough to make a big enough difference to put the end doors completely behind the railing (especially since the difference is wholly within the design of the fiberglass bonnet)
The railing at the end is protecting the invisible staircase that is haunted by Mitch, the guy who was murdered in that very spot 20 years ago and buried under the platform. If you look where the roadbed meets the bottom of the platform, you can see the patchwork. Legend has it that on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday nights when the signals all line up green on the Manhattan bound south side tracks of the MannyB, Mitch will crawl out of his concrete tomb, only to be repeatedly run over again and again by train after train after train. He then gives up and crawls back in, to plot his stategy for the next all-green signal line up. His dream is to one day make it out of the bridge line station and meet up with the girls that haunt the Essex Street trolley terminal.
P.S. The legend about the all-green signal line up; I don't believe it.
Is that who we saw Saturday night on the first Q?
I sure hope he wasn't ON the first Q. I assume you mean you saw him from the safety of your R68. Because, like, if he managed to escape his hardened tomb, then I'm, like, outta here, Scooby Style!
The JFK express symbol. Oh well, it's not like we would ever need it again, or even if we did we probably wouldn't use R-40s on the line anyway, with them having the worst seats and all.
I've only seen it cover up the yellow D, which the dual Q renders obsolete. That makes more sense, since the yellow D is near the Q (JFK is at the very beginning, far from the Q, which is towrd the end)
Perhaps you saw one of the signs that did not have a yellow D. (I heard many of the older 40/42 signs had that, or the Z, but not both)
My petite fiancee would disagree with you about the seats.
She doesn't follow subway cars at all. However, she loves the Slants, because only they seem to have seats that allow her feet to touch the floor.
(I don't know whether the R40M or R42 seats would be the same; she may not have been on those cars before, based on which trains she uses.)
R-40Ms Yes. R-42s No. The R-40 series seats had to have been designed by someone who is very, very short.
I'm undertall and I think the seats are just fine. If you 6'5" 250lb guys with huge muscles are uncomfortable, then get up and let us 25lb weaklings sit down. Not that I'm a 25lb weakling and not that there's anything wrong with that.
Well, the seats are good for the vertically challenged, as is the railfan window on the slants, but the angle of the seats still leaves a lot to be desired, whether you're 5-foot-2 or 6-foot-2.
In terms of shape, I actually prefer the Redbird seats to the R142 seats. I was surprised by that, as more thought probably went into the newer ones.
My butt invariably slides off the R40/R40M seats. The angle of the seat bottom is wrong; it's flat by about 5 degrees. I don't have this problem with the R42 seats or even the R32 or R38 seats. Only the R40. Been that way since day one.
wayne
Tell the truth, Wayne. How often do you actually SIT while riding in a slant R-40?
I think people are confusing two problems with the R-40 seats.
They're apparently short. I've never noticed. I don't have a problem with this.
But they're also shaped all wrong. Compare them to the Redbird/R-32/R-38/R-42 seats, which are a joy to sit in. The R-40 seat contour is all wrong.
The R-142/R-142A seats are also shaped all wrong (but differently). Their contour is clearly intended to fit that of the human body but it's way off for me. Supposedly they're shaped that way to keep people from slouching, but unless I want to ride with a piece of plastic jabbing me in the lower back, I have no choice but to slouch. (I looked around the car today. Some people fit just fine. Others are like me.) The Redbird etc. seats were much better and I never slouched in them -- do they not fit some other people?
I agree; I made a similar comment, re the Redbird vs. R142 seats, in the thread just above your post, before reading yours.
Other than the 142's and the pint-sized R62 buckets*, I don't have a problem with any of the cars' seats.
*If anyone would fit in an R62 seat it would be me, and even I find them too narrow.
>>Other than the 142's and the pint-sized R62 buckets*, I don't have a problem with any of the cars' seats.<<
I like the R-142 seats. They're good on my back. (hard to believe that a kid has back problems, eh?)
The R-40's seats suck. I mean really. They're not comfortable at all, even when you slouch.
The R-142 seats fit the curves of your body? Congratulations. I find them about as uncomfortable as R-40 seats, believe it or not.
How do you find the Redbird (et. al.) seats? I find them exceedingly comfortable.
The R-62 (et. al.) seats aren't terrible but they do become mildly annoying after a while. And they're too small.
Speaking of uncomfortable seats, does anyone remember the grey fiberglass bench seats on the R14s through 22s? As these models were introduced through the fifties, they originally had padded red foam rubber seats. (Those seats can be found on the R14, 15 and 17 at the Museum.)
Sometime in the sixties, constant vandalism committed on the padded seats led the TA to replace them with extremely uncomfortable low straight-backed grey fiberglass benches. If I was riding the mainline IRT with my mother, she would try to avoid these cars for an R26 through 36, which of course were built with the much more comfortable curving high-back seats that prevailed through Division B's R-27/30, 32 and 38. It was good that we even HAD the option of picking and choosing what car we wanted, thanks to Division A trains mixing their rolling stock.
At least this would work more on the '2', '5' and '6', which were much more likely to run mixed consists, with newer cars mixed in with older ones. The '1', '3' and '4' often ran solid consists of the older, 'straight-backed' models. This became especially noticeable from 1978 through 1983 as the newer cars were outfitted with air-conditioning. In hot weather, people would often pass up a non-A/C '4' (which persistently ran R17s almost exclusively until the 62s took over) for a partially A/C '5'. The '2' and '3' had a similar A/C-non-A/C relationship.
Getting back to seats, the R10 and R16 also premiered with padded seats- wicker and foam rubber respectively. Once again, they succumbed to the vandals' switchblades and were replaced by the same rigidly right-angle grey fiberglass seats as the 14s through 22s, albeit with higher backs. The first time I remember riding an R10 was around 1968 or '69, because it already had the grey seats. Because these models still had 'living room' seats (facing all different angles that was revived with the R44), some ridiculously narrow seats were found by doors and at the ends of cars.
As uncomfortable as these straight-back seats were, those on the R40s were worse because, not only was there no curve, but the bench and (very low) back met at a strange angle that forced you to sit in an awkard sort of semi-reclining position. This is very rough on the spine. A lot of people prefer to sit straight up on the benches without leaning back at all. When the 40s were overhauled, the color of seats changed- from light blue to grey- but the shapes did not.
Perhaps because of complaints, the R42s returned to the standard curved bench of the 26s through 38s, although the back remained short.
Obviously the buckets on the 62s proved unpopular, witness the return of bench seats on the 142s. Now I wonder if the wider, Division B R143s' seating pattern will emulate the bucket/'living room' format in place on the 44s, 46s and 68s. Or will it be benches and more standing room, like the 27/30s, 32s and 38s?
Personally I find the R68 buckets much roomier than those on the 62s.
Speaking of uncomfortable seats, does anyone remember the grey fiberglass bench seats on the R14s through 22s? As these models were introduced through the fifties, they originally had padded red foam rubber seats. (Those seats can be found on the R14, 15 and 17 at the Museum.)
The first cars to be equipped with the red foam seats were the R16's. The R15 seats came with a brown leather-like covering and very little foam. The R14 seats were covered with an artificial cane weave.
The red covering did not breathe and the foam molded this covering to one's body contours. The net result was that one had to peel oneself off the seat.
The R 7/9s that spent their last years on the Eastern Division (if they weren't running the KK route) also had their wicker seats replaced with the straight plastic backs. Very uncomfortable.
If I remember right, several of the R-17s (6608 was one I think) got red plastic seats instead of the gray ones, which had slight indentations on the bottoms instead of a completely smooth surface. I thought they were better than the flat backs that the other pre-1959 trains had, but not as good as the ones that debuted with the R-26/28 series.
There were also those hideous striped green cushioned seats
that appeared on some of the R1-9s, did any R10s get them too?
You can relive some of that discomfort of your youth by visiting
6688 at Branford :)
The R-143's seats are the same as the 142
The only seats I have any complaints about are the R 62/62A. I never noticed the ergonomics of any of the others.
But on the 62/62A, I've caught so much grief from fellow passengers who accuse me of intruding into their space, that if the train's even a little crowded, I just stand and save myself the trouble.
I guess some of those folks expect the same comfort on the IRT as in a limo...(I even said this to someone once)
Buckets are still used on buses though. Why do they keep them on buses but not subways? Maybe because you slide around more on a bus?
Benches on buses would allow lots more standing room.
Even though I'm small the bucket seats on the 75' class aren't that comfortable. I wonder if the TA ever plans on replacing the buckets on the R44/46, 62, and 68 class cars with benches?
And masochistic ...
Well I'm a short guy and the seats aren't that uncomfortable, but the main problem is that with little support you slide around alot. And for reasons that boggle me most petite women are walking around with tall guys. That weird behavior I cannot explain. :-0
Those R-40 seats are pretty uncomfortable. You can't slouch on them and a sharp curve at speed to make you slide right off them. I rode the R-40M's a lot when they were assigned to the D line, but I was usually at the railfan window anyways.
Wayne
For one minute, I thought you were going to say the viewing window. I can put my gun away now.
I cannot describe the hatred, venom, and loathing for the seats on the R-44/46/62/68s. If you're a big guy like me, with a big butt, you end up having that divider, well, you know. Unless you're 23 pounds or under, these seats are the worst invention EVER. I think they were supposed to keep homeless people from sleeping, but they do it anyway.
The R-40 seats are pretty bad. The 32/38/redbirds are the best. I've taken naps.
The R-142s aren't that bad, but they should have just duplicated the redbird seats in the powder blue color.
Anyone ever see the famous pic of the sad pile of old BMT standards, ready to be scrapped, stacked on top of each other, ravaged with broken windows and bent metal? When the orange seat trains end up in a pile like that, I will stand there and laugh like Nicolson as the Joker. I will take pictures and use them whenever I need a laugh.
I despise those seats used in the R-44/46/62/68 subway cars. They ARE the worst invention of mankind. Unless you're a pygmy they are uncomfortable. Even an average sized person such as me doesn't fit into those seats very well. If we're lucky the R-44s will be scrapped within a few years or so. Those cars apparently have been deteriorating since a portion of the sides are made of regular steel and there is corrosion appearing in those portions of the R-44s. The condition is only going to become worse which will mean the cars are going to have to be retired when the corrosion is too severe.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
"The condition is only going to become worse which will mean the cars are going to have to be retired when the corrosion is too severe."
You're talking about corrosion of the pretty car sides. Not the frame or something important. Why would that put the R44's out of service?
Unfortunately the portion of the car sides on the R-44s which were once covered by a blue stripe prior to the GOH program were not made of stainless steel and on some of the R-44s they are in the beginnings of corrosion. If not looked after this condition will only get worse and if it gets bad enough structural damage can result from the corrosion spreading too far. The T/A might look into this problem seriously enough and if they don't want to deal with it the R-44s will then be taken out of service and scrapped. The similar R-46s were manufactured with all stainless steel side so corrosion isn't expected to be a problem anytime soon.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Cesar Romero's Joker laugh was more insidious (and irritating).
I know that pic. .....
6636-40 are being delivered to East 180th Street Barn as of this writing with the usual diesels in tow.
-Stef
I just observed some cars assigned to the 5 from the 8806-8835 grouping assigned to 2 Train Service, so it would appear that even this group is not specifically assigned to the 5, these appear to be assinged at random.
8836-55 on the 4 spend time either configured in their own group, or get mixed with other 'Birds on the 4.
-Stef
Well, almost.
There are a lot of equipment swaps between the 2 and 5 lines, particularly in rush hours. You could also see a set of R-26/28/29s on the 2 if you wait around long enough on many days.
I am told it's a way of adjusting service to compensate for terminal delays at Flatbush Ave.
Incidentally, the reassignment of R-33s on the 5 was up to 8917 as of yesterday. I haven't seen any reports of 8920s on the 5 yet.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
You are correct. Cars on the 2 and 5 regularly swap when necessary.
-Stef
On Tuesday, my operating postions was 8930-31 on the 5. Of course, the bulkhead signs throughout the consist was signed up as a 2.
on-topic for Subtalk or Bustalk? A case can easily be made for both.
SubTalk. Trolleys don't have gas pedals. Take trolley-buses for example. If they have "gas pedals," the I'd say they belong on BusTalk. But since they don't run on gas, I'm not sure what they have. I assume they could still use a pedal to regulate the amount of juice sent to the electric motors.
On a trolley bus it's called a "controller pedal."
What kind of controls do modern trolleys/LRVs have? Don't they all have pedals, like PCCs?
It really depends - some modern streetcars have pedals while others have hand controls.
But PCCs have pedals. I think the Newark subway is SubTalk (it is a subway, after all), but what if I wanted to ask about the old Brooklyn trolley network. :-(
but what if I wanted to ask about the old Brooklyn trolley network.
I guess that question is easily answered. Someone who would know about old Brooklyn would more likely be on SubTalk. It was a very rare railfan in ye olden days who crossed over to bus fandom.
If they have "gas pedals," the I'd say they belong on BusTalk. But since they don't run on gas, I'm not sure what they have.
They have Charge pedals!
If they roll on rails, I'd say they're SubTalk material. If they have rubber tires, well, that's a different story.
-Stef
What about those rubber tired subways, like in Montreal I think. Or somewhere not in these United States. Obviously they are subways and would be discussed on SubTalk, but it throws your rubber tire theory into disarray. Sorry :(
Rubber-tired subways still run on tracks, though.
Flanged Wheels?
In case you're curious as to how rubber tired systems work, check this site out.
And the new MBTA silver line will have buses in a subway tunnel.
The big banner at the top of the index says rail/rapid transit
issues only. That pretty much includes trolleys but excludes
buses, and would seemingly exclude trackless trolleys as well.
The Montreal subway is a rapid transit system.
What about Bus Rapid transit?
The operative word is BUS. A bus in a tunnel is still a bus.
Bus rapid transit may possibly be the next oxymoron.
The Baltimore MTA runs express buses through the Fort McHenry Tunnel. It's in a highway tunnel (I-95 for those interested), but it's still a bus.
What is the definition of Rapid Transit? Probably requires
the movement of a minimum number of passengers per unit time.
A bus will never do it, unless you are talking about some kind
of MU-able bus.
What about a moving walkway system ("people mover")? It is
a fixed guideway system and its capacity approaches 100%
utilization of the guideway space.
You're right about that. But you'd get more mileage out of a post on SubTalk than on BusTalk.
Those BusFiends can get quite rabid with anything on rails you know.
I would say either, depending on what you were discussing.
My general question is--if you were choosing one or the other forum, which forum's participants would be more interested? In the era when there were still a lot of trolley lines, I would say definitely SubTalk--which more attracts RAILfans. But these days, do bus people like trolleys?
My question is about old Brooklyn trolley routes, why did so many of them get new routes as busses, and why the busses that were never trolleys have the low numbers.
My question is about old Brooklyn trolley routes, why did so many of them get new routes as busses
I'm not sure what you mean by the question. That the buses didn't follow the same routes as the trolleys?
When they were first converted, by and large they followed the exact same route as the trolleys, except where bits of private right-of-way or one way streets forced diversions. In the last decade or two a lot of routes have changed, however, but this is long after the conversions. Was that the question?
and why the busses that were never trolleys have the low numbers.
I've never thought of that exact question, but the probable answer is that the new bus-only routes (18th-foster, kings highway, etc.) were assigned numbers by the Brooklyn Bus Corp., the BMT subsidiary that ran these lines. So naturally they started with "1" and worked their way up. The trolley lines used numbers which sometimes overlapped the bus numbers, but I don't believe these numbers showed on the trolleys except the PCCs. Some trolley routes were renumbered when they got PCCs. For example, the Church Avenue Line had two numbers assigned, 8 and 13, but by the time PCCs were assigned this was changed to 35.
My question is about old Brooklyn trolley routes, why did so many of them get new routes as busses
I'm not sure what you mean by the question. That the buses didn't follow the same routes as the trolleys?
When they were first converted, by and large they followed the exact same route as the trolleys, except where bits of private right-of-way or one way streets forced diversions. In the last decade or two a lot of routes have changed, however, but this is long after the conversions. Was that the question?
and why the busses that were never trolleys have the low numbers.
I've never thought of that exact question, but the probable answer is that the new bus-only routes (18th-foster, kings highway, etc.) were assigned numbers by the Brooklyn Bus Corp., the BMT subsidiary that ran these lines. So naturally they started with "1" and worked their way up. The trolley lines used numbers which sometimes overlapped the bus numbers, but I don't believe these numbers showed on the trolleys except the PCCs. Some trolley routes were renumbered when they got PCCs. For example, the Church Avenue Line had two numbers assigned, 8 and 13, but by the time PCCs were assigned this was changed to 35.
I'm not sure what you mean by the question. That the buses didn't follow the same routes as the trolleys?
I mean new numbers. Some have almost the same routes, but new numbers.
The 2 became the B65, the 7 became the B47 (by now combined with the B62, itself formerly the 16 into B43).
Probably because those routes as trolleys didn't display the numbers, but when buses were used (which did display numbers) they would have conflicted with numbers assigned to original bus routes by the BBC.
OK. Now all I have to do is find out when the bus routes were assigned and routes that were started as busses originally.
I think the following BBC (BMT) bus routes were never trolleys, as follows (* is a little less certain):
1--Manhattan Beach
2--I think this was something which evolved into Avenue R, but forget the details.
3--Avenue U
4--Bay Ridge Parkway*
5--Kings Highway
6--Bay Parkway-Avenue
7--Kings Highway
8--18th-Foster
9--60th Street
11--49th-53rd
12--East NY Avenue
15--Manhattan Bridge (as a BMT route--there were other MB trolleys)
16--Ft. Hamilton Pkwy
There were probably others and I may have skipped some. These are all from memory. I can't explain the number gaps. 10-New Lots was for sure a trolley.
The BMT is heavily associated with trolleys and rapid transit, but they were a prominent proponent of the "all-four" theory for big cities--i.e., subway/els, trolleys, trolley-buses, bus--each in its appropriate place. They were big supporters of buses, but as supplementary transit, not for heavy main lines.
I now have compiled a list of all the trolleys and the busses they've become. It's in ASCII. I'm going to move it to Excel via Word and resort it to see which busses today were not trolleys, then I'll get back here.
This has been crossposted to both boards.
I have completed the compilation of the Brooklyn Bus/Trolley list, it is available at http://www.subtalklive.com/brooklynbus.html
Corrections are welcome.
Today, while taking an N Silverbird from Cortland to Whitehall St, arriving at 4:50 PM, noticed something VERY UNUSUAL in this time of changes to routes and lines.
THERE WAS A "W" TRAIN ON THE MIDDLE TRACK AT THE WHITEHALL STREET STATION.
When I saw it, it was dumping its load and all pasengers had to get off - looks like what happens at the City Hall Station of the IRT #6. The doors only opened on the Northbound Platform.
All the people proceeded to exit the "W" and board a Silverbird "N" Northbound that just entered on the northbound track.
Now, understanding certain news that the W would eventually may become an Astoria - Whitehall via Broadway, is this a test?
Man, not even 3 days after the change on the Manhattan Bridge, and for some people it's confusing enough - BUT TO HAVE A "W" AT WHITEHALL DUMPING ITS LOAD - CONFUSE THE HELL OUTTA THE PASSENGERS!
Pretty interesting.
But a W train at Whitehall St.?! The W is not even planned to go there. At Canal St. (N,R) station, the Q,Q, and W trains shift over to the East River tunnels into Brooklyn. The N and R trains continue to go south towards Park Place, Wall St., Whitehall St., then on the long tunnels to Court St. in Brooklyn.
Wow.
If you visit the www.mta.nyc.ny.us website, they have the new entire system map along with the W,Q, and Q trains. Seems to me that the W goes from Ditmars Blvd. - Astoria (N station), following the N line all the way to Canal St., then curving its way through the underwater tunnel all the way to 36th St. in Brooklyn, then moving its path to Coney Island during weekdays.
You really should ask an expert on Subway Advisories to answer this one.
Railfan Pete.
Post-It Note: Don't trust people who respond with a weird tone in their speech, slang, or useless info. If one sets up a bandwagon, others will follow, although some of them can actually give you helpful answers and advice.
It was probably an emergency reroute, this happens all the time. I've seen the following cray reroutes in my lifetime:
A on Queens Blvd - Problem at 59th on the northbound express, this A happened to be stuck at 42nd so the only way to move it anywhere was onto Queens Blvd
M on 6th ave - before flip, they came from DeKalb when there was Nassau or Montague problems, or from Essex when there was Nassau or Montague problems
F on the G - occurs many, many times, for a variety of reasons
R on 6th ave - before flip, when Montague or Broadway problems
E on Fulton st to Euclid - problem at Chambers, was sent via F to Brooklyn (no way to turn at 2nd ave due to switches OOS), the E in front was sent to Lefferts.
G on 6th ave - Crosstown problems
C on Queens Blvd - long gap in E service
E,F,R through 63rd - Problems in their respective Queensbound tubes. This afternoon there was a smoke condition at Lex, and two Rs got sent through the connector.
The three different routes from DeKalb to Coney Island often see foreign lines on them from time to time, if there's a problem on any one of them. Trains are almost always sent to the Brighton, the 4 tracks provide for lots of breathing room for rerouted trains.
Some oddities are scheduled, such as 2s and 5s to/from New Lots or Utica in the rush hours.
One question:
Can anyone give me any information on what a smoke condition is?
Much information would really help.
Thanks.
Railfan Pete.
Is it when you've been smoking 5 packs a day for 40 years and it really starts to show? I could imagine a guy like that holding up a train. Yuck.
When there's smoke and "they" haven't found the source yet or the fire department hasn't given the OK to resume service yet.
I have experienced a 'smoke condition' at 42nd St. - Grand Central on the Flushing line #7. The conductor announced that 'This train will not be stopping at Grand Central because of smoke conditions'. Of course, quite some passengers were wanting to discharge or board at Grand Central but the conductor won't open the doors for them.
All of the 7 trains that day (Sunday, about a year ago) did not stop at 42nd St. Grand Central. I doubt that they were rerouted because the Steinway tubes don't have a lot of options for alternate routes.
Railfan Pete.
Hmm, nonstop situations, I can think of a few I've seen over the past few years:
Smoke condition: Steinway st - Gs and Rs skipped it in both directions, pax still allowed on platform level and threw stuff at the passing trains.
Lighting problem: Lex/63rd's mezzanine had no power. You couldn't see your hand in front of you. Token booth and turnstiles on backup power, elevator and annunciators still had power from elsewhere. Trains ordered to skip and station closed after the problem persisted for 3 hours.
Police investigation:W4th st. Stuff skipped for a while, then service was halted.
12-9: Times Square downtown Express (a redbird), nothing could use the express tracks so everything was sent via local. I got there before the police ordered all trains to skip, but didn't see much of the gory details other than what appeared to be a pair of jeans jammed under a wheel. About 10 minutes later, Times Square IRT was closed for one hour, it reopened at about 4:30 PM.
I remember riding a G train on 6th Avenue several years ago. It was the weirdest thing I ever saw in the subway, because I always knew the G as the train that didn't enter Manhattan. But there was the G train at Herald Square. That was the one and only time I ever rode or saw a G in Manhattan.
This flip thing and the various re-routes that happend as a result of neccessary G.O. work lends credence to the 20-20 hindsight theorem.
By now it should be obvious where connections must be made to insure a seemless and transparant re-route. These re-routs caused by accident, illness, equipement failure, sabotage or crime.
1) the DeKalk connection.
2) a southbound connection from "F" Houston and Nassau St. line.
(this would have been a boon to this flip.
3) extension and connection of the B"way local tracks from 57th St.
under Central Park to connect with 8th Ave-CPW between 72nd St. and 81st St. utilizing the layup tracks.
4) a single track connection between Cortland St and Chambers St. utilizing the layup track north of Chambers between the North and South bound express tracks
5) a connection between Court St. on the M,N,R line to the Court St. Station north end Transit Mueseum.
6) a Grand Union "Broadway-East New York Broadway Eastern Parkway
A,C,J,L,Z with some meaningfull connection of the "L" to lines in Manhattan.
avid
You left out connecting the Franklin Av. shuttle to the Fulton St. subway.
I sometimes see "5" trains on the Westside IRT during rush hour. At first I thought it was just a mess-up in the signs, but I looked at the front sign and...voila! <5> is right on it.
You know, I once saw a C train at Queens Plaza and did a double take. What the....? How in the.......? Son of a .........
I might have even taken it. Don't remember for sure; I was still in shock.
I'll bet this had something to do with the mystery bridge blockage at 4:30 I posted about earlier. Did you see any other W's or Q's?
Na - the only one as I had to run and catch the Ferry.
Ferries! Aha! That's the solution to the ailing Manhattan Bridge. Send trains on ferries! How much would a dozen 605-foot-long ferries cost?
Didn't they do that down at the Brooklyn Army terminal long time ago - float trains on barges?
They still float freight cars on barges, and it works pretty well. I think you're on to something here. They could tear down the Manhattan Bridge and just run the tracks straight out to the waters edge at both shores. Boy, after the 10 minute cut in my commuting time from the switch to the Broadway line, these ferries could save me another 10 minutes!
Why not just make it a 2000' foot long ferry, and cut the trip time down. Harder to run off the end, too.
Or do like the Key System and other San Francisco ferries, and build a pier almost halfway across the water!
I know what caused the blockage: Smoke condition at Lex/59 caused 57th to become a 4 track terminal. From 4:15 to about 4:45. Trains on G(A?)2 relayed through 5th ave. G4 was kept empty for Rs via 63rd, Q trains were only being relayed on G3.
Wow. And that backed up trains all the way to DeKalb?!
Did Astoria have any service at all during that time? (Run every fourth 7 to Astoria and back, asking passengers to mind the gap?) I was in the Queens Plaza area around 4:00 and N's and W's were still screeching their way through.
I was on a W that left QBP a little after 4. The problem had just happened at Lex as I went by, a train had just been taken OOS there. Southbound trains kept coming, I presume they kept at least two up there in case of emergency shuttle service.
If we weren't so lawsuit-crazy, running the #7 to Astoria in the event of a GO or emergency would be a sensible plan. Unfortunately, all it would take for one person to not watch his/her step, get a minor sprain, and win $4 million of public funds.
I'm sure management knows this (I hope they do!), and therefore is almost certain never to do this.
Before the bridge flip, all those weekends there was no #7 service to Times Square, it could have been routed nonstop via the BMT and terminated on the downtown 42nd st. Times Square platform with special temporary platform extensions.
Southbound trains would have to wrong-rail through Queensboro Plaza, and no 7 trains would be able to stop there...
Problem: every train on the #7 line would need 4 trip cocks on both end cars.
Right. So shorten trains to 10 cars, with a single on each end. It's weekend service so there should be enough singles laying around.
I'll confirm that "W" train sighting at Whitehall. I was on a southbound "R" at Rector st. about 4:55-5:00(on my way to catch the 5:29 out of Flatbush to Huntington) when in pulled norhtbound an R68 "W" in service.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Speaking of lunch, guess what I brought today. Something to do with your analogy of Triplexes and BMT standards.:-)
Saw 6301-6310, 6321-6330, 6350-46/6586-6590, 6411-6420, 6515-6506, 6616-6625, & 6521-6525/6xxx-6xxx on Service today. Also i saw R142A 7446-7456 "NIS" at SB E. 180th St & look to me like they heading to Westcheaster Yard. This Friday i will be doing Performance Indicator Program on W line at 36st/4 Av & Lexington Av/59th St Platform.
Peace
David Justiniano
What's the "Performance Indicator Program?"
Performance Indicator Program mean "On Time Performance" & it like a Dispatcher. All i have to do it write down the Car Lead #, Arrive Time, Last Car # & Leave Time.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
R-142s 6506-15 and 6616-25 were road testing. Could they be in service? R-142As 7446-55 are also road testing and have not entered service on the 6 as of yet.
-Stef
If you want to color a yellow train, you should do it this way or else you will incur the wrath of the color police. Or at least use color="gold".
If anyone happens to get on a Redbird line pretty soon, (preferably the IRT #2 line, because I saw the #9119 there at Penn Sta. 34 St. at 12:40AM) and comes across a Redbird #9119, please let me know!
That car is the best Redbird car that I have ever ridden on. Anyone else who rides it would think the same. This car, unbelievably, works at top, above average, optimum condition, including:
1) Smooth startups.
2) Smooth brakes (no squeaks) and when slowing down to stop.
3) Modern electric motor installed and can be heard faintly with doors closed. (Motor used on R46 cars)
4) The one that everyone loves, A/C!
5) Smooth door closings and openings. (Doors close at reasonable and steady speed, in unison, and does not make a lot of noise or slam when opening or closing.)
6) No rusts or paint peelings.
7) Minimum number of the so-called 'scratchiti'
8) Clean and 'polished'.
9) Every characteristic you would want a Redbird to have.
10)A smooth ride all the way through!
You'll love it!
I really hope that they do NOT scrap the #9119 very soon, but it would be appreciated if we paid a tribute to the MTA to purchase it, store it in the MTA Transit Museum, or preserve it in any way possible.
Anything resourceful will help!
Railfan Pete.
What's painted red and travels on the B-division? I saw such an animal crawling out of the N/R Tunnel at DeKalb as I was leaving on the rear of a Qexp. I considered jumping off at Atlantic and running over to Pacific to see it go by, but we went kinda slow to Atlantic so I thought I might have missed it. Anyone have a clue? This was at 7:53pm this evening.
Redbirds heading to Coney Island Yard?
The train that you saw was the Coney Island transfer from the 7 to the N/W tracks. They switch over at QueensBoro Plaza. I saw the train at Roosevelt Ave and 50th Street at 7pm last night. It was an 8 car consist. 3 singles, 2 R36 Sets and 1 single at the end.
#9312 R33
#9612 R36
Of course, nowadays when those trains go out, you're never really sure if they're ever coming back....
Thanks. I love it when you guys have all the answers :)
What's painted red and travels on the B-division?
The R30s have been RESURRECTED!!! move out of the way, R68--there's a new (old) car in town!
it cant be the r30's!!!!!!!
no way in hell
I understand the M now runs 5 AM - 10 PM weekdays between Brooklyn-Manhattan-Queens (S to N). Does anyone know exactly what its south terminals are during those times? I realize that Metropolitan Ave. is always the N terminal. Thanks.
5 am - 9:30 am and 3:30 pm to 10:15 pm----Bay Parkway
9:30 am - 3:30 pm----9th Avenue
All other times----Myrtle Avenue/Broadway
Zman, the South Mary terminal Bay Parkway has the service until 10:15? I thought it was 9:30.
The MTA planning study on its recent map shows most of the route in Light Blue (the Old JFK Express Color).
See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/sas_alignment.htm and open the Adobe Acrobat file.
Is this a color of things to come.
It also shows that the southernmost segment includes two options, One for a new Water Street Subway and one for a Nassau Street Subway connection. Subtalkers, What are your preference?
I don't think the color they use in planning in any way presages the color they would actually use.
However, I have good reason to believe the actual colors will be either ultraviolet or infrared.
I have a better reason to believe the Second Ave line color will be black, as in BLACK HOLE. Money gets thrown in and nothing but Lipservice comes out of it.
avid
By your reasoning, when the light comes out of the other side of the black hole, the color will be "light urple" with pink polka-dots.
Yeah, with the little sparkel things.
avid
"However, I have good reason to believe the actual colors will be either ultraviolet or infrared."
Just like ultraviolet or infrared light, I don't think anyone will be seeing the 2nd ave. subway
Nassau Street, definitely. Nassau is underserved now and tying the 2nd Avenue subway (if it's ever built!) will make it a more important route.
On the north end, I noticed on that 2nd Avenue map that it will just end at 125/Lex. I think a smart thing to do would be to make it go west on 125 St. past Lexington, Lenox, and St. Nicholas, maybe all the way to Broadway. Then every uptown/Bronx line could have a transfer to it, and one of the the most crowded streets in Manhattan could have a crosstown subway underneath it.
Fair enough. I think something to that effect may be in the works...
Yes. There should be that one branch under 125th Street all the way to Broadway and another branch to Co-op City along Amtrak's Northeast Corridor.
I vote for Water st. Another connection to the Manhattan Bridge at Grand st, thus allowing three trunk lines to use it.
Plus, if they do decide on Water st, the Nassau line is so close that they will probably build a connection to it anyway. And, if they're really smart, they'll put a pair of relay tracks north of the junction between Nassau and water st. so that it will be possible to route D trains via nassau, onto the relay, reverse into grand, reverse again onto 6th ave next time the north side is closed.
Both should be used.But another route could be established via Worth st to the World Trade Center and loop into the 8th ave local tracks.
In case you'd like to imagine what it must have been like try this page:
Coney Island Rides
That's a great site so I hate to argue with it right off the bat (pun not intended) but "The California Bats - 1900 (joke attraction - 2 broken bricks in box) Note: aka Red Bats" at Steeplechase isn't the way I remember it. The attraction was either Louisville or St. Louis (some color) bats. Louisville makes more sense but for some reason St. Louis sticks in my mind.
Anyway, you climbed a little ladder to see a painted baseball bat through a peephole. As I remember it, I (and most other kids) felt cheated by it, since you used up a ride punch on a scam.
Steeplechase was really cool, and it would be great if it were still there, but rather tame by modern standards at places like, say, Wildwood, NJ or even the water park in Riverhead, LI.
I went on most of the surviving "famous" rides and the actuality was not always as great as the "must-have-been." The big slide leading to the turntables that spun you round and round was great, but it was extremely difficult to stay on for more than a few seconds before you were thrown to the side.
The Steeplechase itself (a "racing" horse coaster) was thrilling only insofar as you got to put your arms around your date's waist.
I can't imagine what they would do today with the subway-type grating that everyone walked over. Whenever a girl walked over it a clown sent a blast of air up to send skirts flying. Now too few girls wear skirts to put on much of a show and those that do would probably be contacted by a lawyer for a harassment suit.
O tempore. O mores.
Thanks for sharing your first-hand experiences. My Dad also used to share his youthful experiences at Coney Island with me and took me there by subway quite often during the 1940's and early 50's. He had travelled there years ago on the Iron Steamboats. Luna Park was his favorite. Their competitor, Dreamland, had a great advertisement written for it: "Meet Me Tonight in Dreamland". It's still part of the old-time favorites for singers and the score is readily available. "Meet Me in Luna, Lena" just didn't have it and its lyrics are not to be found. Looking at the Bowery now makes me sad. ...and then there were the trolley cars on Surf Avenue...
The late 40's and early 50's. There was no place in the world like Coney Island was then. What a pleasure and joy to take my Sea Beach out there for a day of fun. I remember July 3,1951, a Tuesday. The place was packed like sardines and you could hardly get a piece of beach for your towels and umbrellas. We even went under the boardwalk for a time to get our of the sun, and back then you had pizza shops and ice cream shops located there. I've never forgotten that day, nor the next when we went to Ebbets Field and saw the Brooklyn Dodgers sweep a double header from the New York Giants. I will never forget my Coney Island experiences.
I can only imagine what it must have been like to take the subway out of the hot urban environment to the ocean. I'm still amazed at some of those old pictures of Coney Island where you can barely see the sand for the people. Living in the northern part of Brooklyn when I was younger it seemed like it was actually easier to get to Rockaway than CI-GG to LL to A. In hindsight it probably was just as easy to get to Coney.
Sure JK. There are a number of transfer stations where you could go from the GG tothe F, then transfer at 4th Avenue for my Sea Beach that would take you right to Coney Island. We went to Rockaway, too, as a kid, but I always got pissed off when we had to go there instead of CI. No Sea Beach to Rockaway, and when we would go to a bar to get a score of a ball game in the summer it was usally the God-damn Yankees they were watching. Not so at Coney, that was Dodger country and if they were playing a day game we could get the score, and actually stay for awhile and watch the game. Those bartenders around Coney Island were real cool about that.
>>> The attraction was either Louisville or St. Louis (some color) bats. Louisville makes more sense but for some reason St. Louis sticks in my mind. <<<
Your memory matches mine on the bats. It was St. Louis red bats. There was a sign at the bottom of the ladder indicating that there were two rare St. Louis red bats in the nesting place above. The sign requested that you remain quiet so as not to disturb the bats. After climbing the ladder you got to see two crossed Louisville Slugger bats painted red. In those days the bats all had major league player's signatures on them, and these two bats had St. Louis players' names on them. You just felt foolish after being taken in to see the rare red bats, and of course you did not give the joke away because you wanted your friends to be just as big fools as you were. There was no charge for the attraction though. If there had been a charge you would not let your friends waste a ride punch on it, and you would have felt cheated rather than just foolish.
IIRC, you got a 12 ride ticket with your admission, and could buy additional 8 ride tickets inside.
>>> I can't imagine what they would do today with the subway-type grating that everyone walked over. Whenever a girl walked over it a clown sent a blast of air up to send skirts flying. <<<
Actually it was not the clown who controlled the air blasts. The exit from the horses was across a stage. The clown on the stage was the one with the "cattle prod" who would intercept the women (particularly those who appeared to be there for the first time with wide skirts) and threaten them with it the prod. As they were backing away from him, he would direct them over a small hole in the floor (there were several of them) and someone offstage would release a blast of air. The woman would grab her skirt and the clown would advance on her, causing her to jump to get away from the air, and put up her hands to fend off the clown. The clown would then direct her over another blow hole where another blast of air would be let go. This would happen two or three times before the woman got off stage. The audience, consisting of those who had previously come across the stage after leaving the ride would roar with laughter.
In those days it was considered good clean fun. Now it would result in lawsuits.
Tom
I also remember it well. When that blast of air sent the skirts flying what the women for undergarments sure didn't come from Victoria's Secret. Today they would ask for a release before entering so they could ward off the lawyers. Or at least have to options for those entering.
I would take the jamaica el to ENY transfer to the A train Transfer to the Franklin shuttle and then on to Coney on the Brighton Exp what a ride and take no more than 45 minutes back in the 50's.
Curt
If my memory serves me right there was also a slide viewer stand where you could look in and as the sign said see "Great Views of the Park" that also had an air jet in the floor. Obviously the better view was for those who were looking at the stand when a female in a skirt was looking at slides.
Did anyone ever notice a similarity between the Steeplechase poster man's face/hairdo and Shemp Howard (Horwitz) of the 3 Stooges?
Great work Gary. I've missed your posts. Have you been on vacation. That was quite a spread you put out, but, as you could guess I hit #61 and saw a picture of the Cyclone. I don't care what coaster I've ridden, there is none like the Cyclone. Any New Yorker who misses out on that ride is a loon. Keep the posts coming, but don't bring up the Mets. Boy, have I been taking shit out here from my so-called friends.
We don't get any real vacations--just three day weekends twice a year. I've posted a few times, but you must have missed them. I feel like we should be going to Coney Island this Sunday since we've been there the previous two Sundays, but we won't be able to go. I did go on the Cyclone both days, of course. I'll always regret not seeing the area in the fifties, but at least I was on the other two roller coasters.
I would like to thank the conductor on the Southbound 6 Saturday who was so gratious to this Georgia fella in allowing me to ride the loop and get a good view of the City Hall Station and remnants of the original Brooklyn Bridge Station. He was so imformative about the station, the once-held tours, and why they aren't given anymore.
I missed his name but he was a black man with graying hair and a stache who appeared to be in his 50's.
He was a big help and I appreciate his gratiousness.
I had so much fun Saturday on the 1/9 at Courtland, Rector and South Ferry stations in the 6th car of the 10 car train. The fun first started at about Courtland station when the Conductor announced that 'to exit at South Ferry (Battery Park) you must be in one of the first 5 cars of this train.' - For those not in the know this is due to the South Ferry platform being only 5 cars long.
The fun is watching the panicked tourists, of which I was one - tourist that is. When the accouncement is first made a few of them, usually larger sized women with half-a-dozen-or-so kids in-tow, frantically exit the car they are in and make a mad dash on the Courtland platform for a more forward car. They then make it into the car as the doors are closing gasping for the stale and humid subway air. This repeats itself again at the Rectum , I mean Rector stop - same gasping pear-shaped women - now sweating profusely, same wide-eyed passle of kids.
Then at South Ferry things get really funny. After the train stops those still in car 6 realize the front door is in the station but not going to open - there is no gap filler there. Nevertheless, panicked that the train will leave in just a few short seconds ... it won't... the robust mothers try to pry open the door with a twinkie. Amused as ever, I tell them they can go thru the doors between cars. As they do so one of the larger moms gets scared and won't budge (maybe she got stuck). Anywhoo, just then all the panicked and confused tourists from cars 7 thru 10 who paid no attention to the conductor 2 stops back arrive and there is a real logjam.
Finally, all the tourists have left the train and the train pulls out, thought probably a bit delayed.
This was so amusing to me that I exited at Canal, crossed the platform, and rode the same loop 2 more times.
Actually, this is a problem now. With the new transverse cabs at either end of the five-car sets used on the 1/9, there's no way to pass from the sixth car to the fifth car unless the C/R is kind enough to move his door out of the way.
One problem with the typical announcement is that the average non-subtalker has no idea which number car he's in. Can the C/R, say, flash the lights in the rear half so those passengers who won't be able to get off can identify themselves and move up?
This always bugged me about Amtrak trains too. You can't expect passengers to remember which car they are on in sequence, especially with 6 or 8 car trains. But even with three car trains, this can be a problem. Often, when boarding, it's hard to see how far back the coach you're gettin on is, especially at Penn, when you want to get the heck in there and grab a seat before they all disappear. Same goes for the Number 1 IRT train. If you're not used to the South Ferry arrangement, and you're rushing to board before the train pulls out, you don't have time to check whether you're in the first 5 cars. On Amtrak trains, sometimes the conductor will announce that only one exit will be available at certain stops (like, say, Elizabethtown on the Keystone Line, or Utica on the Empire Line). He might say "between the 2nd and 3rd car" or more commonly, "please exit where you see a member of the train crew." How are passengers to know where this "member of the train crew" is? What if they start to go the wrong way and can't find the right door until its too late and they're off to the next stop 40 miles down the line? Can't the conductor announce, "The exit at Utica will be between car number ##### and car number #####. Passengers in cars #####, #####, and ##### should walk forward to exit." Is that so hard? Or they could post a sign or program the LED display to say, "You are in the 5th Car of this Empire train. Thank you for riding Amtrak." Or even, "You are in the 5th Car of this Empire train. Please walk forward X cars to exit at [stop name here]." There are so many ways they could improve customer service in this regard. What is it about railroads that makes communications so hard?!
That’s what the conductors in NJ Transit trains do for short platforms or where there are low platforms (Jersey Ave or when we have to disembark from the express tracks).
Not difficult to write down the car numbers of your consist before the trip!
John
It's a common practice on the LIRR for the crew to announce that only the last 'X' number of cars in the front or back will platform (somehow the word 'platform' has become a verb) at a given station. This is fine if you happen to know whether you're in one of those cars or not. If you're boarding a train at Penn or Jamaica, especially in a rush, you may not know whether you're in one of the front four cars, or whatever.
This especially applies on the Port Washington branch where Murray Hill, Auburndale, Manhasset and Plandome have short platforms. I've seen a few people, after hearing the announcement, nervously ask if the car they're in will platform. A lot of the passengers aren't even sure (although daily commuters habitually ride in the same car that opens by their stairway, so THEY should know). Usually it's best to follow the crowd.
Once when riding a post-midnight (and post-WRESTLING-at-the-Garden) train to Kew Gardens, there was no announcement at all. When I saw we were stopped well back of the platform, I had to scramble for the first car whose doors were opened. It's a good thing I made it out by a hair's breadth, because it would have been a long wait- and expensive (change of fare zone)- to get a train back from Jamaica to Kew at that hour. This was before the Archer extension opened.
Somehow I don't think I could use a lack of short-platform announcements as an excuse for getting out of paying to backtrack one stop. Falling asleep and missing your stop certainly isn't.
===
(somehow the word 'platform' has become a verb)
===
Just nitpicking. "Platform" can be a verb. BUT, you are not putting the train on a platform, as much as you are putting the doors to the train on the platform.
---
platform \Plat"form`\, v. t.
1. To place on a platform. [R.]
2. To form a plan of; to model; to lay out. [Obs.]
Church discipline is platformed in the Bible. --Milton.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
---
There was once a severe delay to a Westbound train that was to stop at Kew Gardens and Forest Hills, due to its connection at Jamaica being late. To hurry this train out of the station once the connection arrived, they made the announcement that the train would double-stop at those stations and all cars would platform. I've only seen this happen twice in my lifetime.
>>>>>Can the C/R, say, flash the lights in the rear half so those passengers who won't be able to get off can identify themselves and move up?
No. If you flash one car, you flash them all. And the C/R is required to open his cab door for anyone lagging behind at South Ferry.
I didn't mean to provoke such a discussion. I just wanted to tell how much fun I had watching the tourist confusion.
It's been going on for decades.
"It's been going on for decades."
And it will continue to go on. The logical solution to this problem is to extend the length of the platform to include the last five cars. The cost of such a project, however, would quickly kill any hopes that it would get done (since South Ferry is so close to the New York Bay shoreline).
Couldn't the platform be extended through the existing tunnel in either direction? Leave the loop as it is.
I didn't say anything about changing the loop. Just the cost of extending the platforms.
What does the proximity of the shoreline have to do with anything?
With two exceptions, all of the short platforms systemwide were lengthened decades ago.
Whenever I get off the #1 at SF, and walk upstairs, I'm usually looking at rock sediments on the shore by the ferry terminal. And, I read about how the city had trouble keeping the tide out when that portion of the IRT was built.
Understood. But any platform extension would be along the tunnel wall north of the station on one side or the other.
The tunnel wall between Rector and South Ferry is holding back landfill - the cost of rearranging that for a platform extension boggles my mind. Extension of the platform north of the Ferry on the uptown side would probably be hampered by supports for the Ferry Terminal upstairs and the N/R stop at whitehall.
Actually, the uptown side is about 1 1/2 levels above and to the west of the 4/5 tunnel, with the N/R tunnel and Whitehall Station about a level below and a half block to the east of the Jouralmon Street tunnel. Logistically, those wouldn't kill a platform extension, but the switchback from the outer tracks to the inner loop would.
They had to run pumps around the clock to keep the water out during construction. It was an engineering horror, probably on the same scale as 34th St. at 6th Ave.
I think part of the problem -- asides from the serious waterproofing the SF loop has -- is the distance between the switches from the inner (Lex) track to the outer track before SF and the ones from the outer track to the inner one after the station is less than 10 cars long, so that if the platform was extended to 515 feet, one of those track switches would end up inside the station itself.
Sinces switches are among the most likely places for a derailment, and since that station is already part of about a 320-degree loop, the safety concerns would probably prevent the MTA from adding on another 255 feet or so to the station.
Interesting point, but why is that a problem? Right now, the 1/9 stops with the last five cars dangling out the back of the station. I don't know if they clear the switch from the inner loop, but whether or not they do, that's where trains stop. What would change if trains stopped in exactly the same place but the doors opened?
You're standing on the platform directly in front of the switch, and a 5 decides to derail and shove it's coupler up your ass.
That would be most rude.
Seriously -- how about putting a one-way gate at the end of the new platform? Passengers would still be required to board up front, but passengers on the train could get off anywhere. Nobody would be standing on that platform for very long, and most of the time another train would block the path of any possible derailment.
No. The man mentioned couplers and asses. End of story.
And I quote:
"Homer: Look, Marge, you don't know what it's like. _I'm_ the one out there every day putting his ass on the line. And I'm not out of order! _You're_ out of order. The whole freaking _system_ is out of order. You want the truth? You want the truth?! You can't handle the truth! 'Cause when you reach over and put your hand into a pile of goo that was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do! Forget it, Marge, it's Chinatown.
Homer Simpson on one of the rear five cars of the 1/9 at Rector Street -- an interesting episode for the Simpsons' 12th season....
There is a switch at the end of Exchange Place PATH and the end of Rahway NJT. No reports of maimed passengers due to derailment yet...
I see the concern with NYCT, though.
There is a switch at the end of Exchange Place PATH and the end of Rahway NJT. No reports of maimed passengers due to derailment yet...
A car did end up on the platform after the H&M derailment at Exchange Place in the 1940's. Was the switch (if it existed then) the reason?
No, it was just going much too fast in a 12 mph zone.
Seth
What did you think a discussion board was for?
-Hank
I have heard the C/R announce that passengers should walk through the train to the front. Of course, that causes some in the head five cars to walk to the first car!
The same thing happens on Metro North -- on many trains they announce that the first two cars will not platform at various stations, and the last two at others. Result, everyone packs into the middle of the train.
It wouldn't be a bad idea for new cars to have some way of making announcements in only some cars.
When I rode the 1 to Rector a few weeks ago, the C/R didn't open his door there. (I got off there, so I don't know if he opened it at South Ferry itself.) Lots of passengers did the platform shuffle, including one who didn't make it in time and was left behind on the platform. The only people I saw remaining in the train was a group of three in the very last car.
Incidentally, standard platform signs run the length of the southbound Rector platform. (Yes, I do realize that few people actually board there -- but if there are going to be signs at all, they might as well be accurate.)
What are you talking about?
The travails of travel to South Ferry. What are you asking about?
Well even though it is against procedure, the C/R should close down the front end of the train and announce that "if your the doors in your car are open at this time your car will not platform at South Ferry. Take this time to use that open door and move up to the first 5 cars of this train past the Conductor's operating position if you wish to exit at South Ferry, I am now reopening the front half of the train, South Ferry next...".
Or they could just say "This is Rector Street. The next stop for those of you in the front five cars of the train is South Ferry. For those of you in the rear five cars, the next stop is Rector Street. This is Rector Street. The next stop..."
It may not get the tourists to move to the front of the train, but it will give them something to ponder while they're making the loop around South Ferry. :-)
I think I know why they don't allow the train to discharge passengers in 2 parts. Isn't there a sensor or signal that tells the operator when he is lined up for the gap fillers. This probably operats by reading the location of the front of the first car. If the train were stopped so the last 5 cars could discharge there would have to be a second gap filler sensor down the line. More if 9, 8, 7, or 6 car trains runs the line. Perhaps I'm wrong but it makes sense to me. Besides, the mass confusion at SF is so much fun to watch. Don't ruin it.
FINALLY! Someone who thinks that public transit SHOULD be difficult.
-Hank
9 car 3s do run the line on occasion...
That was funny! You win the "funny made up C/R message of the day" award.
Better yet, have a 5 minute layover at Chambers Street going TO South Ferry instead of LEAVING South Ferry, announce to all passengers that only the first 5 cars open at South ferry, and that if they are alighting at South Ferry, to move up to the front of the train. This way, there is no panic by tourists or anyone else for that matter, and you allow peole a few minutes to move up to the front of the train. Some people, rightly so, are afraid to walk between cars while the train is moving, and if they try to do it while the train is at a station stop, they try to rush it before the train starts moving again.
--Mark
Brilliant idea, brilliant. BTW, I love moving between cars when the train is moving. Sortof gets the adrenaline going.
Problem with that is those of us who board a train expecting to have 5-10 minutes to make the ferry.
-Hank
They do often have a 5 minute layover there, trains are usually held until a northbound 1 leaves (they might be keeping the number of 1 trains south of Chambers at a constant).
It wouldn't make a difference - they still won't listen.
Sounds good. But don't have the C/R use the word "alighting." People might think he's asking them to light him up a doobie. And if you get the C/R high, you're in for a wild ride.
Isn't the solution for the train to discharge everyone in the first 5 cars, then shut those doors and pull forward so the last 5 cars have platformed, then open those doors? MetroNorth has done this on occasion. There have to be clear announcements, of course, but that's true now. Is there any reason this won't work?
From the way the track maps look the 5 line, which uses the inner loop to turn on weekends, crosses the 1/9 line where the first 5 cars would be waiting while the last 5 are loading/unloading. Maybe I'm wrong. I was once before.
The inner loop and outer loop do not cross at-grade. There is a crossover from the inner to the outer prior to the station, and from the outer to the inner just past the station.
-Hank
Interesting idea. There would need to be an accurate stop indicator in the tunnel since the T/O wouldn't have a platform by his side to confirm that all is okay. Would it delay service? Maybe during rush hours, but not at other times. And I'd just love to see the reactions on the faces of the tourists who would run into the station and see their train pull out only to have it stop again.
The tourists would all run on, thinking they got "lucky."
And what's wrong with that? Sure, they wouldn't have the railfan window, but they'd be able to look out the back.
It would help with door holding if people knew the trains would double stop. Think about it: Are you going to run if there's a 50% chance you'll be able to make the same train in 30 seconds? No one knows if this is the train's first or second stop.
Classic. Someone should video tape this stuff, maybe do an entire documentary on stupid tourists
Like the ones on the W who wanted to go to the World Trade Center, and after Canal watched it get further and further away...
Yeah, make a video! I'd be willing to pay up to $10 for at least 60 minutes of non-stop stupid tourist action. But's that's not where the money really is. Because I'd be willing to pay up to $12 for at least 60 minutes of stupid NEW YORKERS in action down in the subway. You can't blame the tourists too much. You CAN blame and mercilessly make fun of the New Yorkers who are ig'nant and naive.
Wanna find some New Yorkers to make fun of? It doesn't happen so much any more, but while the 63st construction was in full swing every night and weekend the line from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt ave was subject to constant <- express local -> service.
All trains run express in one direction, we'll say Queensbound. People will wait at the local platform at Roosevelt for an R despite the fact that they're arriving behind them. They don't even turn around.
People who wanted a local stop and got expressed crossed over and waited for the R, despite the fact that all trains (EFR) were going local in the opposite direction.
You're a sick, sick man.
Keep them stories coming!
My aunt had a similar experience back in 1959. She was going to the Battery to catch the ferry to Liberty Island, and went around the loop more than once before finally asking a conductor what was going on. He explained that you have to be in the first 5 cars to get off at South Ferry, etc., etc. Unfortunately, she doesn't remember if the trains were Lo-Vs or R units. I'm speculating they might have been Lo-Vs, since she says there was no announcement. Then again....
They knew what they were in for.
While riding on a Queens-bound 7, I noticed that there was a signal actually on the platform itself at the Vernon-Jackson platform right before the tunnel entrance. I usually ride the train home in that direction (taking the F directly in the mornings) so I haven't really noticed if there's a similar signal on the Manhattan-bound platform. Is that a rare occurrence or are there similar instances like that across the system? Seems like a prime opportunity for vandalism.
There is a signal on the platform at 34th/6th ave IND N/B Express platform at the north end. I am sure there are others.
Peace,
ANDEE
There are plenty of signals on side platforms throughout the system. They just happen to be mounted horizontally and attached to the ceiling as opposed to the platform itself. Why the signal on the Queens-bound V/J platform is not so mounted I do not know. I always thought it had something to do with the fact that 11-car trains stop in the station well-ahead of that signal, and that portion of the ROW could be considered "not practically part of the station," since no boarding occurs in that area.
Downtown Wall St on the 4/5 has a signal bolted to the platform floor about 4/5 of the way towards the front.
John
The signals are also mounted on the platform at the southbound platform at 138th St./GC on the 4/5, Jackson Av. on the 2/5 (both directions), and at W. Farms Sq. on the 2/5 (uptown only). Moving them to be off the platform and safe from vandalism (not!) would throw the track circuit out of proportion.
Most of the platform mounted signals have been there for years and do not appear to have sustained much damage from vandals. I believe that they get checked on a regular basis, so that any damage gets addressed in short order. Besides, you have station cleaners who work on all three shifts, plus train operators are required, I believe, to report any signals that look damaged, so an extra layer of protection exists.
There is a home Signal on the North Bound D platform at 34th Street.
Robert
It also serves as a stopping mark of sorts for 10-car trains of 60-footers down through the years. Every such train I have ever seen stops so that the first car is at that signal.
The signal has nothing to do with where the train stops. The car markers at 34th street are under the platform and the 10 car marker just happens to be right near that signal.
Peace,
ANDEE
There's one on the northbound platform at Ditmas Avenue on the F.
That ball on D4 track is an oddity! Most of the high signals
on platforms were originally beyond the station before the
platforms were lengthened. At 34 St, that signal is well beyond
the 10 car marker, but the platforms there are HUGE. Do any
IND experts know why?
Perhaps it was yet another fine example of IND overbuilding.:-) I really don't know. I do know I kept getting fooled at that station, waiting for a train by the northernmost staircase and having to make a mad dash when the train arrived. Never realized just how long that station was in those days.
At Wall Street, Southbound on the 4/5, there's a home signal, set up the same way, mounted vertically on the platform itself.
"At Wall Street, Southbound on the 4/5,"
Technically, by your previous post, there is no southbound at wall st. The station is south-east. Which way do you want it?
There are many signals on platforms that are curved such as Union Square or South Ferry. Some of these are mounted vertically too.
-Dan
Signal is also on the platform at the west end of Sutphin Blvd E station on the W/B track.
For the record, subway ststions in the New York City system DO NOT HAVE EAST ENDS OR WEST ENDS. All subway stations have either north or south ends.
In technical subway terms, you're of course correct.
By the conventional meanings of the words 'east' and 'west,' you're not.
Looks like John was using the conventional meanings.
I second you on this, David!
And under ground, how do you know the actual propogation of the station platform? You may have a general idea but what he calls west might be south west or west-south-west. The purpose of the TA system for identifying directions is so when two people discuss directions, there is no confusion. Since this is 'SUBTALK' and we talk about BIEs and Home Signals I don't think it's too much to expect that a simple convention like that be followed - especially when John talks about wrong-railing etc.
It woudl probably be easier to just ask everyone to identify what kind of direction they mean when identifying them...like "System south" or "Real West", etc.
DANG! Those low-bid compasses again ...
"DANG! Those low-bid compasses again ... "
1) Philidelphia is 40 degrees North of the Equator...
If you go directly south until you are 40 degrees south of the equator, you will be in the PACIFIC OCEAN.
2) Reno (Nevada) is 100 miles WEST of Los Angeles (California)
3) If you travel in an easterly sort of a direction through the PANAMA CANAL, you will arrive in the PACIFIC OCEAN.
(Gee... isn't geography PHUN!)
Elias
Also there's a signal at 34/6th on the N/B express platform, at the north end.
A friend of mine has experienced excellent service on the Brooklyn bound Q (morning rush) to Dekalb and says it's fast and easy. OTOH, the Manhattan bound Q during PM rush from DeKalb seems to be slow and moving through a bunch of switches after between DeKalb and the bridge.
I went to the map section of this site and it appears based on the maps of the Dekalb area that Brooklyn bound tracks to DeKalb are pretty direct. It also appears based on the map that the Manhattan bound Q out of Dekalb needs to merge with atleast one other line and then cross over the set of tracks that normally go to and from the North side of the Manhattan bridge. Is this the case? If it is then should I assume that Manhattan bound Broadway BMT service will always be significantly slower than Brooklyn bound?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
The tracks to the Manny B. are the same for Bway and Sixth Ave. service for a short distance beyond Dekalb. The bypass tracks merge with those main tracks just after the abandoned Myrtle Av. platform. After that, the tracks split, with the Bway bound tracks ducking under the Sixth Av. tracks and then curving over to the south side of the bridge. All of the interlocking and grade timers in that labyrinth of trackage makes the Manhattan Bound trip seem slow.
Going Manhattan-bound, the bridge and bypass tracks share a wye turnout just past the abandoned Myrtle Ave. station, where the Broadway track turns off to the south side. The merger takes place beyond the wye.
This weekend, along with changes to the 4 (read the announcement yourself), the 5 is running south on the West Side to South Ferry, returning north on its regular route.
The wording of the announcement ("Manhattan-bound 5 trains run on the 2 from 149 to Chambers Sts, then on the 1 to South Ferry") implies that the 5 will be making local 1 stops from Chambers to South Ferry. It also implies that passengers won't be permitted to remain on board from South Ferry to Bowling Green. Is that correct? I thought Redbirds couldn't stop at South Ferry because the gap fillers wouldn't line up. (Will the 5 temporarily swap its fleet with some other line's?) And isn't the usual service pattern to run non-stop, with passengers aboard, from Chambers straight through the loop to Bowling Green?
IMO, the announcement implies that 5s will run local to South Ferry, discharge all passengers, and swith over to the inner loop for the trip to Bowling Green.
I don't know about the usual service patterns in GOs like this, however, because they ususally take place well after my bedtime.
Yes, that's how I read it. But I thought Redbirds couldn't stop at South Ferry since the doors don't line up with the gap fillers.
The last time I rode a similar service pattern (northbound 2 trains ran up the East Side from Brooklyn; southbound 5 trains ran up the West Side from Bowling Green), passengers trying to go up the West Side were instructed to transfer at Bowling Green to a southbound 5, which would become a northbound 2. No stops were made between Bowling Green and Chambers Street.
Why wouldnt they let passengers ride between SF and BG this coming weekend? It's one measly switch and a very short ride.
They're probably strict about the tresspassing rules for that stretch of track, so the answer would be no.
Whats so special about that stretch if track?
The train is officially NIS for trips such as the South Ferry crossover. Unless someone wants to correct me, I don't think that T/Os and C/Rs would want to risk carrying stowaways and the bad press that would follow.
But the track is in service during many other GO's.
What bad press? The train pulls out of South Ferry. A few seconds later it's in Bowling Green.
Most likely, the train will discharge at Chambers, run light to SF around the loop to BG. And why would it swap its fleet, the GO is for 16 hours. (11pm, Sat-3pm, Sun)
Other notes about the GO:
4 train: Runs from Bklyn to 3Av-138St. Bronx Service: From Woodlawn to 149-GC. Shuttle bus service is available between 161St and 3Av-138St (6 Line)
Then why does the announcement say that the 5 will be running on the 1 from Chambers to SF? It should announce that the 5 is running on the 2 to Chambers and then terminating.
The only reason to swap fleets is to make the stop at SF.
You're not gonna win. Give it up. We all know that if it says "that the 5 will be running on the 1 from Chambers to SF" then it means you can ride it from Chambers to SF. If you want to know what happens at SF, just ride the G.O.
And I plan on doing just that.
Maybe the best idea is to take a 1 to SF (since I know the 1 will stop there) and wait on the platform to take pictures of Redbirds passing through and maybe even stopping where they shouldn't be stopping.
I still haven't ridden the Newark City Subway, and I'd like to make it out there before the PCC's are retired.
Not directly on-topic, but I'd also like to walk a few of the area bridges -- specifically, the Manhattan, Williamsburg, Queensboro, Triboro, Henry Hudson, and George Washington. I'm in no urgent rush here. I figure we could easily cover all these bridges in two or three days.
I can do this all alone, but if anyone else has similar plans, we might as well join up.
I JUST walked across the Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queensboro Bridges this past Monday ... all with an emphasis on the trains of course :)
--Mark
The trains on the Brooklyn and the Queensboro?
This Monday I was too busy riding over the Manhattan Bridge to even consider walking it.
Brooklyn has an excellent view of the Manny B.
Queensboro goes right by the N as it enters the tunnel portal.
I walked across the Manhattan bridge today on a whim. I got off the black/white/grey S shuttle at Grand Street (duh!) and walked over the bridge and then over to DeKalb. Stupid north entrances to stupid Dekalb Ave close at 8:00pm. I got there at 8:10pm. How far does one estimate I walked?
My first double post. Oops. I hit the refresh button on my browser (I did not push the "Post Message - Click Once" button twice)! Anyhow, don't forget to add in the extra distance that I had to walk to check and see that ALL the north entrances to DeKalb ar either temporarily or permanently closed after 8:00pm.
I regret to inform you that DeKalb is not on the list of stations slated to have a part-time attended entrance converted to a full-time unattended entrance. (Neither is my station.)
I walked across the Manhattan bridge today on a whim. I got off the black/white/grey S shuttle at Grand Street (duh!) and walked over the bridge and then over to DeKalb. Stupid north entrances to stupid Dekalb Ave close at 8:00pm. I got there at 8:10pm. How far does one estimate I walked?
I've done most of these, I want to walk the GW and Triborough, which I have not done.
What about the Bayonne? That's walkable. I've done it though.
Fine, the Bayonne, too. Getting there appears to be a moderate pain, though.
What's the best way to walk the three legs of the Triboro without backtracking too much? The M35 may come in handy.
Staten Island busses can get there.
Or the shuttle from the HBLR terminal.
I didn't know there was a shuttle from HBLR. The NJT website (the old one, at least) assumes you already know the information you're looking for.
At the Staten Island end, I suppose this would give me an opportunity to ride SIRT (which I've never ridden) and/or the ferry (which I haven't ridden in over ten years).
The SIRT is far away. It would make no sense to combine it into one trip.
I know it runs the wrong way from St. George, but seeing how often I'm in Staten Island anywhere other than the highways (just about never, except once a year or two ago when I tried -- and failed -- to bypass a traffic jam on the WSE), SIRT is closer than it's ever been.
First you've never been on PATH (has since been resolved). Then you've never been on the Newark City Subway. Now you've never been on SIRT. And you implied that you've never ridden/walked across the GW. I think it's time you got your priorities straight. Things like the GW will not be around forever. You snooze, you lose.
You have not walked the GW? Take my advice...do it...it is a singular experience.
Peace,
ANDEE
You can take a virtual walk of the Manhattan Bridge at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/mmanhattanbridge/manhattanbridge.html
Hey I'M always up to railfanning on the NCS so I can atleast show off the best train in Jersey. I also would be interested in walking the bridges, Email me for some more info. THanks
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I "discovered" that in Mapquest you can see actual satellite images of places. I found some nice shots of subway stations around the country:
Lakewood/Ft. McPherson on MARTA
Coney Island
Fort Totten on WMATA
Colma on BART
You can even find your own house. Put in your address and it comes up. you even get to see what your neighbors have in their back yards without looking over the fence. The bad part is that with this kind of technology, you can be sure that your privacy will be compromised should the wrong types get their hands on it.
I know, but I'm not going to have eveyone here know where I live! The resolution isn't high enough where you can see indivdual objects, also it's not like we're controlling the satellite, so I'm not too worried. Of course the gov't has the technology to see way better than this, so that's might be a problem.
Heh. Move those plants inside. Voorheesville, NY is apparently out of range so I'm out here waving my thing at the sky. Ya never know. :)
I was doing the same thing! Now you know why I didn't post an image of my house :)
I heard that they can even read the newspaper that you have in fromt of you from one of those satellites. When they can listen to your conversations from that distance, and know what you had for your last meal and when you last took a bath, be afraid, be very afraid.
If you're looking for a location in (or near) New York State, you'll be able to zoom in even further at the Interactive Mapping Gateway. To zoom in all the way, you'll need special software, but it's available for free (and well worth the download).
The Microsoft Terraserver does the same thing, only better. terraserver.microsoft.com, they know where you live.
The current token system is the crappiest in the world. Most of the machines never work, and if you only have big bills and you only want one or two rides, you end up having to buy 5 or 7 tokens and up to six quarters in your pocket. At least we got monthly, weekly and weekend TransCards.
Ahh, but rescue is on the way. We're going to get a "Smart Card" system that can be used on multiple systems. Read about it
it is really sad that the Fed Gov does not enforce the language on the currency. The idea that 'goverbment produced money' is not usable in fare gates is WRONG!
it is really sad that the Fed Gov does not enforce the language on the currency. The idea that 'goverbment produced money' is not usable in fare gates is WRONG!
It makes sense to separate fare purchases from fare payment. I don't want to get stuck behind people trying to search for nickels when I was responsible enough to buy my fare in advance.
Hi folks,
OK, I'm usually the one who can answer these kinds of questions, but this one has me caught a bit off-guard.
Northbound at Broad Channel there are now four possible routings:
1) Normal, through routing on F4 (bottom-green)
2) Layup on F6
3) Test track F5 (which, believe it or not, I never even heard about until I was out there last week!)
4) Relay crossover to F3
What indications show up at 322 ball (or 310 reverse-running, for that matter) for each routing. Do you get one bottom yellow for relay moves? What do you get for F5 and F6? One is obvioulsy three-yellows but what of the other? Do moves to F5 and F6 both get three-yellows?
Thanks.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
I think you have to take a call-on to enter the test track.
It's Y/Y/Y to get to F6 at both 310 and 322.
It's G/Y to do a simple crossover. For some reason, before F5 was declared "active", the bottom yellow on 322 was covered with something, so you had to read the iron to tell wether you were going to wrong-rail or enter the relay.
It's Y/Y/Y to get to F6 at both 310 and 322.
It's G/Y to do a simple crossover.
OK, so that solves three of the four routes.
G/G - Northbound F4 (through)
G/Y - Relay to F3
Y/Y/Y - F6 layup track
For some reason, before F5 was declared "active", the bottom yellow on 322 was covered with something, so you had to read the iron to tell wether you were going to wrong-rail or enter the relay.
Hmmm. I'm still confused about what you get for F5 now that all aspects of 322 are again available. Another poster suggested call-on?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Hi folks,
For the coming third edition of my book, I'm planning on doing a chapter on towers and master towers. One problem: I don't know where they all are! Anybody have a listing of what towers are active, where they are and what their control limits are? By this, I mean (for example) Queensboro Master controls the following tracks between location X and Y. I have much older information in my General Signal Arangement books, however I'm sure many new masters have replaced smaller towers since those drawings were made.
I'm planning on giving this topic about 4 or 5 pages (including photos), so I'd like to get as detailed as I can. Any takers?
Thanks tremendously.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
The towers that I do know that are active are at (if I am wrong about some sorry, but this what I remember)
Woodlawn
149 Street- Grand Concouse
180 Street
241 Street
Dyre Avenue
Parkchester
Soon to Be Concouse Yard Master Tower
205 Street
Grand Central
Times Square
96 Street
125 Street
145 Street
59 Street- Grand Central
34 Street (6th Avenue)
Queens Plaza
Continental Avenue
Coney Island (no brainer)
Mrytle Avenue
Dekalb Avenue
The IRT also will have Unionport to replace the smaller towers. it will control 2 and 5 North of 149 to 241 and Dyre.
Brooklyn has:
DeKalb /Flatbush
Murphy (Jack Murphy was a Sgt and killed in Gulf War.)
Atlantic, Utica (IRT)
Jay Street, Bergen(Soon to be run from Jay Street) A bunch at Coney Island Area, Liberty Jct(Where Lefferts and Rockaway A split), East NY Master. Sometimes the tower at Utica IND Fulton is used during a G.O, Myrtle/Wyckoff(during a G.O. the L platform tower is used.)
Nassau, Bedford-Nostrand on the G (Both only when needed for a G.O.)
Manhattan/Bronx= SOuth Ferrey, Brtooklyn Bridge, Grand Central, Times Square, 8th av(L Train), Mott Ave (Soon to be replaced by Unionport Master, Westchester Ave(6 line). World Trade, Canal, Chambers(IRT),96(IRT during G.O.s), 137.
Queens- Ditmars, Queensboro Plaza Master, Queens Plaza(North and South), Continental, Roosevelt, Parsons(J/E), 179.
Perhaps Alex L.who moved from A Division to B DIvision or others can give the full list of both full-time and part-time towers and towers only open during G.O.s and perhaps our great, wonderful, super, etc. webmaster can add this to the FAQ. (I'm ducking!).
One correction Subway-buff: There is no Atlantic Ave tower on the IRT. It is Nevins Street, which cotrols everything from Alantic to Wall St on the 7Av and Atlantic to BG on the Lex. It also controls the SF/BG loops.
Hope this helps,
Thanks. if anyone can add others please feel free to do so.
Rather than attempt it here without a spell check, I've sent the A Div towers to Peter by e-mail (with the B to follow). I'll also post them to my own site sometime in August.
<< Rather than attempt it here without a spell check, I've sent the A Div towers to Peter by e-mail (with the B to follow). I'll also post them to my own site sometime in August. >>
Where is your site?
Jim D. (RailBus)
home.att.net/~alabianca
Rather than attempt it here without a spell check, I've sent the A Div towers to Peter by e-mail (with the B to follow). I'll also post them to my own site sometime in August.
I'd like to take this opportunity to publicly thank you for sending this stuff to me. 'Twas greatly appreciated, and I look forward to receiving your B-Division list whever it's assembled.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
The tower info and control limits would be an excellent addition to your book.
Jim D. (RailBus)
The following master towers control the following areas:
207 St Master: south of 168 St to 207 St incl. all 207 Yard leads.
59 Master: north of 145 St to south of 59 St.
DeKalb: All of the DeKalb area, plus Pacific St N/R/W station, Brighton Line from DeK to south of Prospect Park, entire Franklin Shuttle route.
Joe Murphy/38 St: 4th Av Line from 36 St to 95 St, switches at West End portal to Bush Term, Sea Beach to 8th Av and further pending increased coverage.
Stillwell: Can control Brighton Line from Kings Hwy to CI, entire Stillwell complex, Stillwell Yard, CI yard leads from CI creek area (double check this info on Stl MT)
Queensboro: 7 line between Hunterspoint Av and 33 St, 11th St Cut, N line from cut to Ditmars, 63 St line from south of Lexington/63 to 36 Street incl. switches at 36th. Range for QBMT to increase.
City Hall: Broadway BMT line from Lexington/59 to switches south of Whitehall St, all switches at Broad St. (currently, 57/7 is run manually by TW/O on site.)
Essex: North of Essex St to south of Chambers St, 6th Av line from Bway-Laf to south of Delancey St.
East NY: M line from Marcy Av to Metropolitan Av, J line from Marcy Av to 121 St and can control as far as Parsons/Archer. L line from Bway Jct to Livonia Av, yard leads to Linden Yard from L and 3 lines.
What aqbout part-time towers such as Utica/Fulton, Bedford-Nostrand(G) ,Nassau(G), Myrtle (L), etc.
What about Jay Street and Bergen Street Brooklyn
According to the MTA website, contract procurements has a listing for Bedford park Master Tower, as well as replacements for Jay and Bergen St. As for now, they remain satellites, with 2 towers at Chambers St, one for the A1/A2 tks which is automatically controlled by starting lights, as well as the tower at the north end of Chambers street from the A3/A4 tks which control traffic in conjuctnion with Jay Street for wrong rail moves to the Cranberry, as well as the spur track A5 used for G.O.s and bad order trains that need to be moved off the road sooner than possible.
How's this for a new route for you guys? It starts at 205 St on the D in the Bronx, follows the D into Brooklyn, then follows the West End line to Coney Island (it would switch over to the platfrom where the F terminates), then keeps going up Culver, then it follows the Crosstown line the Queens Blvd, and then finally goes to Jamaica Center. It would be the only line that crosses over itself and it would reach an important demographic of people who want to get from the Bronx to Queens using the longest possible route. It would also finally get the pesky Crosstown line into Manhattan. How long do you think it would take to go from end to end?
It would take way too long, plus give the operators a real headache.
The J used to run from Coney Island to 168th St. in Queens, which was one real long trip. Someone finally saw the light and cut the line down, so that a human being could operate the trains with some degree of sanity.
Could have worked IF the QJ was an Express train middays too. Theres not much differnce between this line and the current A,C,D,F,N,R,2 and 6 lines.
OK, you try to stay in that little operator's cab for that long trip from Stillwell Ave. to Jamaica, Queens, and during said trip, you have a serious call of nature! That is what I mean by operating the line with some sanity. If you can hold it for the entire trip, then Krypton is not the only place where Supermen come from.
This is the reason empty Snapple bottles were invented for. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, try running a C train of R10's from Rockaway Park to Bedford Park. Makes the QJ look like a shuttle trip.
They used to run the c train with r10s during rush hour.
180 Minutes- 1 way
6 hours- 2 ways
Alot of time. Who ever stays on that line for the entire distance has too much time on their hands. Eventhough it would have important connections, it would just be boring for the drivers.
I'm just joking around, by the way. I hope no one actually thinks I'm serious.
Sounds like you've been riding back and forth between the Airport and North Springs too much. BTW, after a weekend in NYC where 1.50 got me anywhere I wanted to go in 5 burroughs, 1.75 for two measly lines on MARTA is way too much.
Did you get to ride up to North Springs during your layover? $1.75 is a little steep, but the system is made for commuting and not railfanning. We're going to have light rail lines in 10 years (I'm sure of this, every business along the proposed route supports it, they even want it sooner than planned), so there's more to come.
Too bad. People are.
-Hank
Now if there was a practical long line, the problem of operation could be solved by changing operators mid-stream.
Thats what THEY did when the "E" went from 179th in Jamacia to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park. Crew Change at Euclid Ave.
Was that the only instance of a crew change?
avid
179th to Euclid? That's a really long run in and of itself. Why couldn't they do it somewhere closer to Queens, like Jay St?
Dan
"Thats what THEY did when the "E" went from 179th in Jamacia to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park. Crew Change at Euclid Ave."
They did that often when the C line ran to Rockaway Park as well.
N/W Broadway Lines
As for a call from nature, forget the Snapple Bottle. I think a 100oz. Arm & Hammer detergent container, wide mouth, for your driving pleasure! We aim too, please.
avid
I am off to Florida on friday where I hope to see some of the Miami-Dade Co. Transit system. I will check out the Tri-Rail line as well, and give a report on the line upgrade when I get back. From what my relatives down in Broward County tell me, the area is booming with newcomers moving in to make homes there, and the highways are not up to keeping up with the increased need.
We shall see what is developing there.
Sunshine state my ass. It rains like hell there from April to October and they get a hell of a lot less sunshine than does my California. We are the real sunshine state, and don't forget it. But have some fun down in FLA and don't get bit by any of their humungous insects, something for which that state is well known. And don't forget, they have to color their oranges because they aren't orange, they're yellow. And I'll bet you didn't know that.
The oranges are really yellow?
Is that before or after the bridge flip?
You forgot about the alligators. California has snakes, so there is no competition there.
..and crocodiles, the only wild crocs in the U.S., and snapping turtles as well. Who needs Jurassic Park? All the large carnivorous reptiles we need are in Florida already! But don't take them on the el in Miami. Only guide alligators for the blind are allowed on the trains.
Mark
You said that you're at CCNY. What part exactly?
Time to move this discussion to email, folks.
> Time to move this discussion to email, folks.
Quote RSPW: "I agree with this post."
Please if your gonna talk to Tony at least visit his website.
yes ! those nice shots of the staten island railway cars " with no railfan windows " .......
Nice web site, Tony. The T in MTA is for Transportation not Transit. A common mistake found in professional publications. (Like going to Grand Central Station to catch a train - great if you live in Chicago many years ago)
Phil Hom
And tokens!
I have some sort of token, slightly larger than a penny, with "ONE FARE" in the center and "METROPOLITAN TRANSIT AUTHORITY" around the outside. At first I thought it was an old NYC subway token, although I couldn't find any information about it. Then I noticed the Transit/Transportation discrepancy. Where on earth is this token from?
Maybe LA, just after Pacific Electric was taken over, or from Boston when Charlie of the MTA could not pay his exit fare on the subway/surface lines.
Why do you have to pay exit fares? Have you alredy payed the entrance fare?if you hyave to pay another fare on exit that that's compleatly pointless.
Distance-based fares are often pay-on-exit, at least if you didn't pay enough on entry.
NYC used to have pay-on-exit in the Rockaways.
I've heard of some bus systems where payment is made on exit instead of entry. I think the idea is that all routes begin or end downtown, and rides within the downtown region are free, so boarding is free and exiting is also free if it's still within the designated area.
I've heard of some bus systems where payment is made on exit instead of entry. I think the idea is that all routes begin or end downtown, and rides within the downtown region are free, so boarding is free and exiting is also free if it's still within the designated area.
I believe Seattle's that way. I'll be going there next week, so I'll see for sure.
Thats' true. It's pay on exit for outbound trips and pay on entry for inbound trips. There's also a free ride zone downtown. What are the advantages of having a system like that? Seattle doesn't have a distance based system, so I don't see why that's better than an pay on entry system everywhere.
They have an excellent bus network up there, frequent and they go everywhere you want. The system hub is on 3rd Ave, I believe. The Metro tunnel stations are great looking.
Pay on exit on transit buses is intended to speed loading. Passengers don't need to fumble with finding and depositing their fares, so more people can board in the same or less time. It also means the vehicle can close up and move on faster -- other traffic can move more easily as a result. In theory people are taking the bus enough of a distance to have the fare ready by the time they arrive at their destination.
But wouldn't the front door be clogged by people outside waiting for people to pay to leave?
Passengers can board through the rear door.
How would you implement a free zone without pay-on-exit?
Good point, I guess that's the real advantage.
Newark used to be like that until August of 1999 when they went to POP.
You would pay your fare on board like a bus. During rush hours, it was on entry for $1. Other times inbound (to Penn Station) would be on entry and outbound (to Franklin Avenue) would be on exit. Those entering or exiting in the downtown subway portion (Broad, Washington, Warren Streets) would only pay 45˘, while others would pay $1.
So, in the old days, a round-trip ride from Penn Station to Penn Station (like the one I'm planning) was free?
The driver stopped twice, at two different points at Franklin. You would be thrown off at the first stop. If not, then you'd pay twice right there.
Oh, and the trip now is cheaper. The round trip takes less than 45 minutes and therefore can be done on one ticket.
The little scab/van/busses on Boulevard East in NJ have a pay on exit policy, I don't know why though.
Peace,
ANDEE
(I've heard of some bus systems where payment is made on exit instead of entry. I think the idea is that all routes begin or end downtown, and rides within the downtown region are free, so boarding is free and exiting is also free if it's still within the designated area.)
As discussed previously, I see exit fares as a way to implement Metrocard on the commuter railroads. Outside Grand Central and Penn Station, you'd swipe to enter or exit, with the amount deducted assuming a trip to Manhattan. If you get off elsewhere, and the fare is less, money would be restored upon the exit swipe.
POP would be much easier to implement, since many of the surface stations would be difficult to secure appropriately.
I'd like to see Breakneck Ridge secured properly...
Boston once had a subway and surface fare. There was no free transfer between riding on the subway and the surface (bus). Now with the Green Line (subway/surface) you pay getting on the subway, When the PCC ran on the street you pay for the surface fare. It's like the pre-MetroCards days when you could not transfer from Subway to surface lines and had to pay another fare.
Charlie of the MTA (Song by the Kingston Trio) did not have the fare required to pay his way out, and was stuck riding in the street of Boston and he'll never return.
In a way, it is distance based fare, where the subway ends you have to exit and go on by bus.
Well, David Pirmann said not to talk on this board, but I don't know your site. Last one, David. I usually work in the NAC building as a computer tech. The Chief of Public Service is my supervisor. Please e-mail me if you want further info.
Considering that LR is basically a bus on rails, I wonder if the MTA is willing to consider LR in the outer boroughs, such as the GC in the Bronx, Union Tpke in Queens, Hylan Blvd. in SI, and Kings Hwy in Bkyn?
There are places it could work, but it's as vulnerable to NIMBY, and more so in some ways, than subway because it does eat real-estate on busy streets.
There are loads of threads on this subject. If I recall correctly, this was extensively discussed last year and a few months ago...
Woodhaven Blvd would be ideal for a light rail.
I'd also like to see one on 2nd Ave. from 125th to South Ferry, and another one from Penn Station to the financial district.
But only modern, progressive cities can implement such beneficial services. In NY, we'd rather talk about wasting Billions on the 2nd Ave tunnel, and in 20 years, it still won't be in service.
I am receptive to this.
You have not, however, factored in some costs which light rail can impose on NY: traffic accidents, legal liability, lack of compatibility with subway ROW, need for MTA to invest in light rail maintenance, something currently the agency does not have expertise or operating experience in; increased costs if a separate ROW is established.
A new subway is expensive to build, but its operation is something MTA does day in and day out, and the trains will be compatible with other ROW. It also causes a lot less NIMBY problems in the city. Also, speeds will be lower than a new subway's due to traffic influences, and subway offers a higher passenger capacity.
I am not against it, since it does have a lot of pluses- but you haven't presented the whole picture.
<<A new subway is expensive to build, but its operation is something MTA does day in and day out, and the trains will be compatible with other ROW. It also causes a lot less NIMBY problems in the city. Also, speeds will be lower than a new subway's due to traffic influences, and subway offers a higher passenger capacity.
I am not against it, since it does have a lot of pluses- but you haven't presented the whole picture.
>>>>
I think most of your objections would be neutralized if the Light Rail system were built as an elevated (is that an oxymoron? i don't know. but you know what i mean) - that way, no traffic problems, less ROW problems, still a lack of compatibility but we've alreay got the IRT being uncompatible.
I'm thinking have 2 tracks held up on a single support above the centers of the Wider streets of the outer-outer boroughs (think Airtrain tracks over the Van Wyck, but closer to the ground and with thinner supports) - This could work down Nostrand, Flatbush, Union T, etc. and either function as extensions of current subway lines (annoying transfers would exist for riders to get from one to the other, though), or as a complete system covering the underserved areas of S. Bklyn and E. Queens, maybe far N. Bronx, with a few major transfer points to the current subway.
-West End Scott, Dubya lover
PS: of course, since i'm not totally clear the what the exact difference is between a subway and light rail, i may be totally off the mark. Then just consider this my interesting plan for expanding subway service. :)
I don't think you're presenting an unreasonable picture. Light rail cars are lighter, I believe, than subway cars, and their operation is somewhat different (the trolley operators on this board should jump in and explain the differences). A slender T-bent guideway design can be compatible with many streets. Transfers to subway would require some creative architectural work, but not dissimilar to, say, 74th St-Broadway. So it should be do-able.
Light rail cars are lighter, I believe, than subway cars
They are not. I was just about to post that if elevateds are being built anyway, why not run subway cars on them and solve the problem of compatibility?
OK. So let's assume an LRV weighs as much as a subway car. In that case, subway cars might make more sense in the MTA context.
LRV's do have one advantage: if a "low-floor" design or otherwise fully accessible design is used at grade, then platforms are ground-level and therefore cheaper to build. In fact, these platforms are cheaper on elevated systems too. SEPTA uses them (but SEPTA stations are not ADA-accessible unless they include an elevated platform or mini-high.
I just had a thought, while absorbing all the different info on LR you've all provided.
Running through different alternative styles of subway/LR car with regard to their pros and cons, I started thinking about how to make elevateds quieter.
Has anyone ever proposed/implemented a silent-running elevated using water instead of standard wheels/tracks? I'm thinking, like those log flume rides at amusement parks - the portions before the big drop at the end where you're just in a boat in an elevated water stream. Of course to make a subway-sized Log Flume-style elevated would take massive supports, totally obliterating the street below it, but hey, it's a thought - any comments?
The "trains" would be propelled by the continously flowing water, and braking would involve some sort of hook/brake that would grab onto / press against the walls of the "track".
-West End Scott (i think i've been staring at the strangely symmetrical W M signs too long..)
Interesting idea, but think about the creatures who would just love to vandalize such a structure. Another alternative would be mag-lev systems. The technology exists, and there are some systems in operation in Europe, and there is no noise. The hurdle in building it would be the expense of the system, and it does use elecric power in large amounts. How does that sound?
Another alternative would be mag-lev systems. The technology exists, and there are some systems in operation in Europe
Are you sure that there are some systems in operation? I'd thought mag-lev was still in the experimental stage.
I saw some mag-lev systems featured on the Discovery Channel on cable TV. One was located in Germany, and looked like it was in regular service. I could be wrong, but it sure looked interesting.
As one who attended the Maglev public hearings (a waste of time, as far as I was concerned) in Baltimore last year, no scheduled or revenue-generating maglev service exists anywhere.
However, in Wuppertal, Germany, they have the Schwebebahn (Hanging Railway), in which trolley cars run on elevated lines like clothes at the dry cleaners. I don't know if they are quiet or noisy but they have worked well for over 70 years.
[However, in Wuppertal, Germany, they have the Schwebebahn ]
It's actually considered a monorail.
Arti
I rode on a mag-lev train in Berlin, Germany about a decade ago. It didn't go very far or very fast since it was just a demonstration system. They since removed it to restore a U-Bahn connection between the former Western and Eastern sectors.
Light rail cars are usually heavier than subway cars. That's because if a car or whatever hits one on the street, the impact can be absorbed better. The "light" refers to capacity, they carry less than subways.
Light rail kinda sucks, I'd rather see monorail than light rail. Concrete beams are cheaper and faster to build.
I was going to bring up the issue of NY building a monorail, but it's progressive, and NY agencies don't think that way.
A monorail costs much less than subway construction, and can be constructed much faster.
When I see how fast the Port Authority has constructed the AirTrain between Jamaica and the airport, I ask myself why NYC can't do the same in the City, in areas that desperately need a fast mass transit resolution. Why? Because NYC is no longer a world leader. We don't know how to provide anything that benefits the citizens of this city.
And it's not just in the area of mass transit. It's evident on highways, airports, and even sports facilities.
For God's sake, the year is 2001, and JFK Airport still has stairs that people have to carry their luggage down, in order to catch a cab. It's a disgrace. Every airport that I have been to in recent years has ramps, elevators, and escalators so that people don't have to worry about having to carry any items down a flight of stairs.
Just look at the sports facilities situation. Nearly every city in this country has built a modern, state-of-the-art sports facility for their home team.
Boston- Fleet Center
Philly- First Union Center
Baltimore- Camden Yards
D.C.- MCI Center
Atlanta- Georgia Dome and Philips Arena
Miami- The Miami Arena and American Airlines Arena
Ft. Lauderdale- National Rental Center
Tampa- Ice Palace
Arlington- The Ballpark
Dallas- American Airlines Center
Phoenix- America West Arena
Denver- Pepsi Center
Chicago- United Center
NEW YORK- NOTHING!!!!!!!
Don't use sports arenas as an example. I think it's GOOD that New York taxpayers haven't spent a dime to support those useless sports teams. Maybe the government should provide bread, but definitely not circuses.
Light rail refers to the RAILS. Light rail cars are usually lighter than subway cars, if you divide by the longer length of many light rail cars. E.G. Baltimore's LR is 90,000 lb, but it is also 110 feet long. A subway train is 75' long and weighs 70,000 lbs, I think. I am not sure, but it's weight/length that is important.
Perhaps axle-loading is the key issue here. How does subway compare to light rail in that regard?
Roughly similar, to my knowledge. Some systems may use two axles per car (such as HBLR), others may go to three, to better spread weight.
The LIGHT rail has to do with capacity, not with mass.
And what does my post on sports stadia have to do with this?
FYI...PacBell Park in SF was financed entirely with private funds. No taxpayer money was used to construct the stadium.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
in chicago. the loop portions of the subway and the el dont connect but the fare card realizes that you are leaving one station and going to the station right above it giving you a free transfer. like bus to sub in nyc.
Well, a Metrocard transfer can do that too. But you still have to build things like elevator shafts and design your station so that people can get from the El platform to the subway platform quickly and comfortably - whether or not they stay within fare control areas. And of course, by law, anything new must be ADA-compliant.
and when I first used the L at age 11 (today I turn 57) you did the same with a paper transfer issued for the purpose. technology is great, but the politics of 'universal transfer' are the key.
let's clear up some facts here. The physics of LRV's v. "subways" are mostly arbitrary. example--the Chicago L Subway cars are essentially evolved from PCC L cars which for most purposes were streetcars set up for high level platforms. In turn the LRVs in San Francisco are very heavy and are run in the tunnel sections as 2-4 'car' trains. In the instance of a four car set we are talking a 300 ft train using high level platforms in a subway with 'barrier fare control' on a mezzanine level. Sound familiar?
The cost per mile of construction is more a function of corruption and stupidity than system metrics. Think the relative costs of the Airtrain (nominal LRV) v. BART to SFO ("heavy rail" aka subway).
The real differeential in service quality has to do with the degree of exclusivity of ROW. Subways are total. "Streetcars" are minimal.
So if we wanted a transit service in the Second Ave 'corridor' the questions are several. What level of proximity to each destination do we want(local, many stations) how fast over the whole route(express, few stations), what level of auto interference is tolerable? (IMHO NONE)
I favor a 'proper IND local/express four track system' with connections to other boros. I believe the size of the market is such that not much less than a full system will serve the market adequately. (We have been living with the "no-build" alternative far too long). The likelihood that a 'surface' system could do the job is very low, and the NIMBY fight over an el would be horrendous. (BTW the BART el is the T shape precast concrete type described by others., but it is still an el.)
The cost per mile of construction is more a function of corruption and stupidity than system metrics.
How true!
The fundamental problem with using LRV technology on 2nd Avenue is that you are not creating new ROW - you are simply converting one form of ROW into another.
I realize that this is a message board dedicated to rail transit, but when you propose solutions for 2nd avenue, you have to think big picture. Second Ave. is a major southbound vehicle corridor. Any disruption to the flow of traffic can impact traffic patterns from the East Side to the South Bronx. Rail is just one of many parallel transportation means in this City.
When you construct surface LRV technology, you are taking away lanes of traffic. You are taking one form of ROW (road), and converting it to another (rail). As an aside, if you could make the road wider, we wouldn't be having this discussion. In the end, you're hoping that your converted ROW is substantially more efficient than the previous ROW, but with LRV technology on 2nd Avenue, I don't believe that is even the case.
I assert that the frequent intersections and high vehicle volume along 2nd Avenue make it particularly poorly suited to surface LRVs. Surface LRVs would have to deal with the same traffic signals at cross streets as motor vehicles. They would also have to deal with the same gridlock at cross streets. Worse, LRVs cannot maneuver around obstructions. LRV technology is more environmentally sound than cars, and if given the chance, the rail cars can proceed unobstructed from red light to red light. But I ask: what could dedicated lanes of traffic for LRVs accomplish that dedicated bus lanes could not, and for significantly less cost?
A 2nd-Avenue subway, on the other hand, builds completely new ROW underneath the existing ROW. For the record, an elevated structure would accomplish the same. Yes, subway construction is very difficult and expensive (we like to say $1 billion and a life lost per mile of tunneling), but new ROW is what 2nd Avenue needs. The Lexington Avenue line is already at crush loads, and southbound traffic on 2nd Avenue during the morning rush is very heavy.
If local politicians believed that their jobs depended on completing a 2nd-Avenue subway, I think things would be very different. Packed onto the 86th Street platform in the heat waiting for a downtown train, I often hear complaints about how deplorable conditions are on the Lexington Avenue Line. I remind the person that there are n blocks of completed Second Avenue subway tunnel, that the 2nd Avenue subway is real and not an urban legend, as many people still think. Instead of complaining, I tell them to contact their local politicians, but I doubt they do. I imagine they're on the platform the very next day - complaining to another stranger.
New York City is this nation's hallmark City. It is the quintessential city. It is The City. In our plastic disposable society, it is so often that we simply want to discard what is old and move on. That was the attitude towards New York in the past decades. New York is finished, lets move to California.
But as we've seen over the past few years, New York is back and better than ever. With greatness comes great challenges, including building infrastructure. It is harder to build in Manhattan than just about anywhere else. And yet New York is building. The largest public works project in the City's history, Tunnel number 3, is scheduled for completion in 2020. The City is spending billions on rehabilitating existing subway infrastructures.
Constructing a 2nd-Avenue subway is going to be difficult, it is going to be time consuming, and it is going to be expensive, but it is certainly not going to be impossible.
MATT-2AV
Well said. I'd give you my vote - tell me your runnign for something :)
I agree. Furthermore, if the proposed light rail is just going to run at-grade, a bus lane (physically separated from the main road) would be better. A bus lane can be implemented piecemeal, only where it's necessary, and buses can use the regular road elsewhere. A bus lane can accomodate many of bus routes, some of which may turn off (look at 5th Avenue, with the M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, Q32, and a variety of express routes all running on the most congested section but each going its own way elsewhere); with light rail, any route joining for a stretch must either be converted in its entirety to light rail (could you imagine a light rail line up Riverside Drive for the M5, in Fort Tryon Park for the M4, or on the Queensboro Bridge for the Q32?!) or run in mixed traffic on the now-narrower main roadway.
I propose an alternitive route(s). Use existing inferstucture, the highway networks in brooklyn and queens, ie: BQE, Belt Parkway, Interbourogh Parkway, etc. The center median can be used, same way as the Air-Train at Van-Wyck Expressway. This valuable infrastrucure already in place. A concreate ELEVATED structure can be set in place.
This is just an idea and what do some of you think ?
SamVt
Expressways are good places to put a train. However, if they're not designed with the train to begin with, you may have to rebuild the road to avoid losing lanes. The Van Wyck worked out well because there was room to recreate the third lane in each direcion and still provide buffer in most places. Other roadways may offer that option as well.
On this day (July 25, 1953) the first token was used, in the advent of the increase in fare to 15 cents.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe they should have a special celebration on the 50th anniversary of the first subway token.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Yes, by eliminating it.
A token demonstration by a token group of subway riders?
I have some where in one of my many "junk" drawers a token from the Pittsburg transit Company, or something sounding like that. It was the same size, different metal composition. SilverISH. Maybe a nickle composite.
My Plan was to somehow get to Pittsburg, buy up a ton of their tokens and save 2 or 3 cents on the NYC subs.
I guess I wasn't alone in my petty schemes. The transit Mueseums have an interesting collection of tokens,slugs and foreign coins.
I think the Conneticuit turnpike was the most successful.
Anyone hve the real stats and facts.
avid
I certainly remember when the Connecticut Turnpike tokens were being used in the turnstiles so people could get their ride on the subway for the cost of 17 1/2 cents. Once the tolls were eliminated on the Connecticut Turnpike the use of the Connecticut Turnpike tokens in the subway turnstiles ended. There was apparently a coin from was is now the former Soviet Union that could also be used in the New York City subway turnstiles.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I never knew there was such a thing as a Connecticut Turnpike token, and I lived there for 7 years. My father's strongest memory of that highway was being in a massive backup at the 10-cent toll barrier at the Connecticut River back in 1967. He maintains to this day that it was stupid.
Those toll barriers were stupid. Thank goodness they were removed in late 1985. They only caused more problems than they were worth.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
It didn't have the Y cutout, either, IIRC. Not initially, anyway. I remember using the later dime-sized tokens with the cutout.
Let's say the 1/3 of the engineers who say the Manhattan Bridge can and will be permanently fixed in 2004 are right. It has been so long since the last time the bridge was fully open, and so much has changed, that it is hard to say what a full open scenario would look like. I'd like to propose a few criteria.
o The number of trains going over the H and A/B tracks must be approximately balanced at all times.
o At least one 4th Avenue train will have to go through Grand Street.
o At rush hours, about 1/3 of the trains should use the tunnel and 2/3 the bridge, based on the job distribution.
o To limit stress on the bridge, the "base" service should include two services in the tunnel, and two on bridge (one on each side).
Now what? I have yet to come up with a scenario that meets all those criteria.
That last criterion of yours makes things quite difficult, seeing as there are five basic services on the Brooklyn end (Brighton local, Brighton express, West End, Sea Beach, Bay Ridge). The only one that can be dispensed with without leaving any station without service at all is the Brighton express, so that's gotta go off-peak ("base service"). The Brighton local, which I'll call the Q, will use the south side. The north side, per your second criterion, might as well be our old familiar friend, the B. Send the N and R through the tunnel. (If you're willing to relax your requirement on only two tunnel services, the M can also use the tunnel.)
For peak service, we can add one more service to each side of the bridge. On the south side, add the N (removing it from the tunnel). On the north side, add the D, this time running express in Brooklyn. The reduction in lower Manhattan and Broadway local service could be partially alleviated by sending extra N's or R's local, terminating Whitehall.
That seems to meet your criteria. It's not great, but my hands are tied.
Nothing could be simpler. Go back to the 1967 plan.
6th Ave - B via West End Exp + D via Brighton Local
Bway Exp - N via Sea Beach Exp + Q via Brighton Local
Bway Local - R via 4th Ave + EE via Forest Hills (terminates at Whitehall)
Nassau Local - via via West End + specials
Pleeeease don't EVER send that R back to Astoria - pffffft!!!
The N & R won't ever switch terminals in Queens again.
"Pleeeease don't EVER send that R back to Astoria - pffffft!!!"
Why? Was the service worse than the current N service today?
N Broadway Local
(Nothing could be simpler. Go back to the 1967 plan.
6th Ave - B via West End Exp + D via Brighton Local
Bway Exp - N via Sea Beach Exp + Q via Brighton Local
Bway Local - R via 4th Ave + EE via Forest Hills (terminates at Whitehall)
Nassau Local - via via West End + specials)
Not so simple, and this is what led to my question. That service plan works until you get to nights and weekends, when the Q does not run. At that point you have the B and D on the north side, but just the N on the south side, an unbalanced load.
You could route either the B or D via tunnel, but not to 6th Avenue. Running the N via tunnel would further unbalance the load.
You could replace the B with the W on the West End nights and weekends, and run it via tunnel to 57th Street. But that breaks the link to Grand Street.
Perhaps the thing to do is make the Q the full time service on the Brighton, and send the N through the tunnel nights and weekends. Then you'd have the B (West End) on the North Side and the Q (Brighton) on the south side. The D would have to terminate someplace. Or perhaps the B would be the full time service on the Concourse? Arrgh.
Not so simple, and this is what led to my question. That service plan works until you get to nights and weekends, when the Q does not run. At that point you have the B and D on the north side, but just the N on the south side, an unbalanced load.
The BMT ran an unbalanced load for years, with heavier cars (cough:::Triplex::::cough) and they did not have problems. The problems were cause (as ItalianGuyinSI has said) by deferred maintenance.
A Balanced load won't fix the twisting problem: unless a train on both sides runs somewhat next to each other at the same time. The present work will fix the twisting. Before, there was no solution for it, and for that reason, The work we have had for so long has come about (when regular maintenance was done, it fixed the problem, but that's like fixing a cracked pipe by wrapping it with duct tape, it's temporary. The present work will make the 'routine maintenence' less necessary.)
Wrong. There was a solution for it: To maintain the expansion joints, suspension anchor bars and other parts that give the bridge it's FLEXABILITY. A pipe has O rings and seals around it, if replaced, the pipe can last practically forever, with upkeep.
No work was done on the bridge in years. DECADES.
If simple preventive upkeep and maintenace were performed, you would not need the draconian fix-it plan as you have now.
Perhaps the thing to do is make the Q the full time service on the Brighton, and send the N through the tunnel nights and weekends. Then you'd have the B (West End) on the North Side and the Q (Brighton) on the south side. The D would have to terminate someplace. Or perhaps the B would be the full time service on the Concourse? Arrgh.
Isn't this what I put forth? Yes, B to 205th.
(Isn't this what I put forth? Yes, B to 205th.)
Well, then I guess that works. Book it, and send it to Operations Planning.
What I would have intially thought was to keep all the 4th Avenue services on the Broadway, and the Brighton on the 6th Avenue, to minimize switching. But that was before the whole outcry over access to Grand Street from the 4th Avenue. Clearly there is a need that needs to be accomodated.
So, summarizing your proposal, if the Q Broadway is full time on Broadway via bridge (Brigton Local), then the B can be full time on 6th Avenue via bridge (Concourse and West End). The D express appears rush hours and mid-days, at other times the N heads for the tunnel.
I guess it works, with a few extra tunnel trains at rush hour.
You would, of course, refrain from using the double letter and the "EE" would become the next incarnation of the "W".
wayne
Or, how about we get all the cars off the bridge and up it to 8 tracks. Funny, most bridges that are just railroad have no problems. Cars already have dozens of bridges in NY. Give this one to the subway.
The Manhattan Bridge was designed originally just for Heavy Rail and Trolley. I have said many times before, the Manhattan Bridge should carry ONLY rail, as was it's original intent.
But isn't it the trains that cause the problems?
The trains cause the majority of the problems with the sway, but that is due to years of deferred maintenance. Expansion joints were found to have been completed rotted away, and these joints are what gives the bridge it's ability to move to and fro. These joints are supposed to be replaced every few years, at a low level of disruption. In addition, suspension anchor bars (appear on top of the towers) were found in a frozen, rusted state. Since the cables couldn't flex, the bridge deck was forced to flex much more intensely. Nothing was done for untold numbers of years, until finally inspections observed stringers almost completely rusted and jarred loose. It's amazing that no tradegy had occured up until the time of the renovations (mid 1980s). What you see now with the State DOT work is the catch-up phase, that could have been avoided altogether if simple upkeep was performed.
As in the Williamsburg, the Manhattan was NEVER designed for the load of vehicular traffic that appears on these bridges today. That's one key reason why neither bridge has gained Interstate status, since the lanes are too narrow and too few. I-78 was to be the routing of the Williamsburg.
If the Bridge was inspected on a regular basis in the 1960s and 1970s, a great portion of this work woul dnot even have had to be performed. This is also the cause to the problems on the FDR Drive, the Williamsburg (to a lesser extent), numerous roadway bridges.
Now, if you look at the PAID toll crossings, you will see, for the most part, properly maintained structures.
Agreed. The politicians of the time must have figured that if maintenance was deferred, they could get by until they left office, then the hot potato would be left in someone else's hands. They did not consider the old proverb that a stitch in time saves nine. Now thanks to those characters, we have the headaches of the present day. Somehow, another old proverb comes to mind - those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat them.
Thank you, very well said. You can bet your ass that won't happen again.
We can only hope that it does not. As long as some character figures that people are stupid, the same tricks will be tried again and again. When the trickster gets a rude awakening, then he stops.
The trains cause the majority of the problems with the sway, but that is due to years of deferred maintenance. Expansion joints were found to have been completed rotted away, and these joints are what gives the bridge it's ability to move to and fro. These joints are supposed to be replaced every few years, at a low level of disruption. In addition, suspension anchor bars (appear on top of the towers) were found in a frozen, rusted state. Since the cables couldn't flex, the bridge deck was forced to flex much more intensely. Nothing was done for untold numbers of years, until finally inspections observed stringers almost completely rusted and jarred loose.
It should be noted that the TA was not in any way responsible for this sorry situation. Blame the state DOT, which chose to "defer" maintenance. Unfortunately, it's the TA (and obviously its riders) that suffer the most.
City DOT, no?
City DOT, no?
I thought it was NYS DOT that was responsible. Maybe I heard wrong, however.
AFAIK, NYSDOT and NYCDOT are jointly responsible, in a sense, for the parkways and expressways. Toll bridges and tunnels are maintained by the MTA or PANYNJ; everything else (free bridges and city streets) is maintained by NYCDOT.
State DOT.
If this was CALDOT, a new bridge would have been built already.
Did you see how long it took CALTRANS/CALDOT to repair those I-405 overpasses in the San Fernando Valley? 6 MONTHS!!!!
Try that here...ha!
City DOT? Then explain this and this -- and explain why the Manhattan Bridge is not listed here.
The City DOT is listed in your first two links as being as responsible entity. However, the Bridge is listed by the TA as being worked on by the State DOT, as well as the NYC DOT.
I do not know why it is not listed in the State DOT page, but judging on how the work is being performed, I'm not surprised.
Listed by the TA where? Not the Manhattan Bridge Service Changes brochure -- that credits NYCDOT.
Nearly every road maintained by NYSDOT has little green reference markers every tenth mile. The Manhattan Bridge has no reference markers.
I very strongly suspect that your information is in error. I've presented many sources indicating that the Manhattan Bridge is maintained by NYCDOT and not NYSDOT. I haven't seen a single source indicating the contrary.
Your sources indicate NYCDOT, of which the STATEDOT is a part.
(Your sources indicate NYCDOT, of which the STATEDOT is a part.0
The bridge is owned and operated, and is being repaired by, NYCDOT. However, it is probably part of the state network, and thus eligible for NYS DOT money. It therefore has NYS DOT oversite. All the state roads in NYC are maintained by NYC DOT. The City administrations have wanted to hand out those contracts themselves.
Is NYC responsible? To judge by the politicians, no one is responsible.
The Manhattan Bridge is not a state highway in any sense of the term. NYSDOT may be helping out somewhat just as NYCDOT performs most of the minor maintenance on the parkways and expressways, which are state highways.
NYSDOT and NYCDOT are independent entities. NYSDOT is a state department; NYCDOT is a city department.
According to other posts here, NYSDOT is at the very LEAST, helping NYCDOT. So my comments were, at the very least, partially correct, and I stand by them.
Correct, the bridge troubles are NOT due to the TA.
(Now, if you look at the PAID toll crossings, you will see, for the most part, properly maintained structures.)
I agree. You don't always get what you pay for in government, but you never get what you don't pay for. All the bridges should be tolled. And the subway fare should keep up with TWU wage increases.
If you tolled Manhattan Bridges, and put that money toward rail, I'd bet you could have a second avenue subway AND twin tubes to replace the Manhattan Bridge tracks in less time than it would take you to say "W to Astoria"
Dedicating the Manny B to rail only is a nice idea in concept, except that it would require more subway contruction on both ends, and as far as I understand it, the bridge would have trouble with yet more trains crossing it (even though that may have been the original intent)
Additionally, many vehicle drivers (I know this a rail page, but most of us drive at least sometimes!)have become dependent on the bridge (which is directly opposite the Holland Tunnel). There would be one less relief point for trucks coming out of the Holland Tunnel. If they couldn't use the M/B, they'd switch to the Willy B, and cut accross Tribeca, SoHo, and the Lower East Side to get there.
I'm not too wild about all the traffic on Canal Street, but it's here to stay, and forcibly shifting it as this would won't work.
There is no 'concept' in the idea of using the Manhattan Bridge as a rail-only bridge, that's the intent of the structure, and that's for what it was designed. Period.
As far as subway construction goes, it's a small price to pay for dedicated transit links. A tiny bit of construction on the west end of the bridge was all it would have taken to avoid this bridge flop, but that is another story.
The bridge wasn't designed for trucks. Use the Brooklyn Battery, for a direct shot up the West Side for your Holland Tunnel. You will avoid cross town traffic as well.
Want to see the Canal Street traffic disappear? Start charging a per-axle toll on the East River Bridges.
You make some good points (BTW, I also live in SI). Unfortuantely, politics, lack of funding, and various enviromental protest would prevent most of it from occurring. I'd bet that Brooklyn Heights residents would complain about the fumes from trucks backed up at East River toll plazas, the way we Staten Isanders complained about Brooklyn-Bound toll delays and pollution.
Of course more transit is a better idea, and the East River briges need revenue so they don't deteriorate again- but I don't see this happening any time soon.
Here we go again.
No toll plazas. High speed E-ZPass readers. Anyone without E-ZPass is welcome to sit in line at the tunnel, as long as the physical toll booths remain in place. Eventually they should be removed and replaced with license plate cameras; if you don't have E-ZPass, the registered owner of the car is billed for the toll (plus a surcharge).
Funny, most bridges that are just railroad have no problems
How many of these are suspension?
Some railroad bridges are suspended, but these are WELL-MAINTAINED and WELL INSPECTED. Ben Franklin in Philadelphia is one.
Cannot say the same for the East River Bridges, before 1986.
Ben Franklin Bridge has always had the same number of trains on both sides, running at RR frequency and most of the time with only two cars (xcept rush hours).
So? No matter if 2, 6 or 10 cars, the point is SEPTA and the local agencies have maintained the bridge in top form since it's construction I believe in 1926. Doesn't matter if the load is unbalanced, what does matter is if the bridge is maintained in a proper fashion.
Different bridge, lighter usage. No comparison can be made. The bridge design is also different, with thicker cables closer to the outboard edges and load-bearing beams across the main deck.
-Hank
It's a suspension, the tracks are on the outside. Lighter usage in terms of road or rail traffic?
Ben Franklin has how many cables?
Ben Franklin doesn't even have a truss plating below the deck, yet it still holds up to the traffic. Again, up-keep is key.
Well it's actually more complex than that since we also have the 63rd Street tunnel to fit in. Here's my ideas...
North side-- one part time, one full time service:
B - west end/4th ave/6th ave express/cpw local (not nights or weekends)
D - brighton local/6th ave express/cpw express/bronx (full time)
South side-- one part time, one full time service:
Q - brighton express/broadway express/terminates at 57th (not nights or weekends)
N - sea beach/4th ave/broadway express/60th st/astoria (full time)
Tunnel-- one part time, one full time service from broadway, one part time service from nassau:
R - 4th ave/broadway local via tunnel/60th st-qblvd local (full time)
W - astoria express/broadway local to whitehall (or to 9th ave to provide additional brooklyn tunnel service however 9th ave doesn't need *3* services, the B, M, and W) although.. BMW would love it.
M - metropolitan/west end via tunnel (daytimes)
Queens Boulevard adjustments
R - as above, local via 60th
F - current service, express via 63rd st., super express at far end of qblvd line to 179th st.
V - queens blvd local from 179th st/53rd st./6th ave local/culver express (daytimes) -- I think the Culver express will have to see service in order to get another train without too much service on Brighton or 4th Ave
E - current service, express via 53rd st.
Night times a shuttle could provide 63rd ST service or divert "F"
At night, G extended to 179th St.
CPW adjustments
D, express as above
A, express as current
C, local as current
B, local as above
Summary:
Bridge: North side & south side balanced each with a full time (D, N) and a part time (B, Q) service
Tunnel: Service to both Broadway (R, W?) and Nassau (M) with additional peak service
Broadway: two local trains (R, W), two express (Q, N)
6th Avenue: two local trains (F, V), two express (B, D)
Queens Tunnels: Rush hour has one service thru 63rd St (F), three through 60th Street (N, R, W), two through 53rd Street (E, V);
Queens Boulevard: Two services express (E, F), two local (R, V); late nights "G" all the way to 179th replaces part time V
CPW: Same service as now (A, D full time express, B, C local with the B part time); 8th Avenue & Fulton same as now
New service: V, using Culver express and extra 6th Ave local
Problem Areas that i can think of
Adds a crossover at 53rd St/6th Ave interlocking that doesn't exist now (currently all 57th st trains go express during peak hours)
NIMBYism against culver express service
F could run thru 53rd St at night with shuttle serving 63rd st. to provide additional 63rd st service; or rush hour V and F could switch tunnels but I think a qblvd express service should each use one of the tunnels
Hmm I just realized you can't terminate a train at 57th & Broadway AND use the Broadway/63rd St connector for an express Brodway service. Well I guess you could but you'd have to get that terminating train turned fast.
Oh, lets see does my plan meet all the criteria:
The number of trains going over the H and A/B tracks must be approximately balanced at all times. Yes I think so (one full time one part time on each side)
At least one 4th Avenue train will have to go through Grand Street. (yes but not 24/7-- the B during daytimes; use D and transfer at Dekalb nights/weekends)
At rush hours, about 1/3 of the trains should use the tunnel and 2/3 the bridge, based on the job distribution. Debatable... the B/D/Q/N vs the R/M and maybe W. Yeah I'd say that would probably work out to 2/3rd vs 1/3rd depending on tph for each.
To limit stress on the bridge, the "base" service should include two services in the tunnel, and two on bridge (one on each side). My plan had one full time north side (D), one full time south side (N), and one full time tunnel (R). So maybe this point needs some work.
-Dave
(Pirmans scenario)
Where does the West End go nights and weekends? Did I miss something?
Probably a shuttle, just like now.
Yeah, I was just assuming it would be cut back to a Stillwell-36th St shuttle. I'm not sure what the exact hours of that operation is today but if it's just late nights and not also weekends it shouldn't make a whole lot of difference to the load balancing scheme.
The basic pattern might look something like this:
TerminallineBrooklyn route patternTPHSouth Crossing Manhattan routeManh. PatternNorth CrossingNorth Route
N
patternTerminalNotesConey Island
West End express 12 Manhattan Bridge AB 6th Ave.
express CPW local 145th/Bedford Pk eves & weekends to 145th? Coney Island
Brighton local 10 Manhattan Bridge AB 6th Ave.
express Concourse express 205th St
Coney Island Culver express15
Rutgers 6th Ave local 63rd St Queens Blvd exp. — 71st 179th St. All times exc nightsChurch Ave.
Crosstown local? Court Sq. non wkdys Smith/9th-71stP95th St or Coney Is
4th Ave. or Brighton 7 Montague Nassau local
Williamsb Bridge Myrtle Ave. Local Metropolitan
Coney Island Sea Beach express
10 Manhattan Bridge H Broadway express 60th St Astoria Ditmars Blvd Brighton Beach Brighton express 12 Manhattan Bridge H Broadway express 57th St weekdays Church Ave Culver local 15 Rutgers 6th Ave. Local 53rd St. Queens Blvd local 71st or 179th St
= 15 TPH =15TPH
· Return of both Broadway and 6th Avenue service together on the Brighton Line
Throughput
Manhattan Bridge H 22
Manhattan Bridge AB 22
Montague St 22
Rutgers St. 27
63rd St 15
60th St 25
53rd St. 30
Queens local 30
Queens express 30
These are round figures. They would probably be a bit less to allow for slack.
The N might be switched over to the tunnel at Prince (peak direction for Queens), otherwise, the would be queezed in, probably about 6-8 tph, taking a few slots from the R.
Other than giving riders a choice of Manhattan route, why should Brighton trains run over each side of the bridge? Doesn't this slow down service?
Many's the time that the Brighton train I'm riding is held north of Dekalb while a West End train crosses ahead. This will continue to happen -- with the Sea Beach thrown into the mix -- once (if) the bridge is fully opened, unless the Qs and Ds have one side to themselves.
Northbound, during rush hours at least, the B and N are both 4th Avenue expresses in Brooklyn and merge south of 59th Street; Brighton locals and expresses merge north of Parkside Avenue. Why add another merge point if you don't have to?
choice and to balance the service over both sides.
All they would have to do is schedule the N's and D's to cross the Gold St interlocking and the B's and Q's to cross the interlocking at the same time.
I do not assume that your first criteria will be necessary. The steel bracing is designed to reduce twisting even when the bridge is inherently unbalanced, as it will be for the next three years. That will provide NYCDOT with data regarding effects on structural integrity.
Then we'll know a lot more about the importance (or unimportance) of balancing train loads on both sides of the bridge.
B: Via Bridge and 6th Ave all times except nights
D: Same as above, except it runs 24/7
N: Via bridge and Broadway, all times except nights, when it goes via tunnel.
Q: Same as above, except at nights (Run it on weekends, the Brighton could use weekend express service).
It won't be completely balanced at all times, but it's adequate.
Okay, here is another plan, this based on increased ridership figures to level in 1960, and is thus partly a throw-back to then:
MB:
B 10 tph rush, all times except nights
N 8 tph rush, all times except nights on bridge (nights via tunnel)
D 8 tph rush, all times
Q 10 tph rush, all times except late evenings and nights (operates 16/5 + 7AM to 8PM weekends and holidays). Rush extended to Jamaica replacing 10 tph Fs, exp. via Hillside Av.
Not perfect MB balancing, but close. This would necessitate other changes:
V 10 tph rush, some Vs extended to Jamaica (to make up for missing local Fs on Hillside Av.). V runs to Kings Highway rush, to Church Av. M-F middays, at which time F runs as Culver Exp. to/from Kings Highway rush, to/from Church middays. G runs to Church when F runs Culver Exp. other times terminates at Smith-9th.
Z 6 tph, rush extended via Brighton local to Coney Island. Rush exp. from Broadway Junction to Essex.
J 6 tph, rush and mid-day exp. from Broadway Junction to Essex.
K 6 tph, Broadway Junction to 168th St.-Washington Heights.
W 8 tph, Astoria-Whitehall Broadway local.
Thus: 24 tph on Broadway Brooklyn with express service to Jamaica, 16 tph Astoria, 24 tph Brighton, 24 tph Wash. Hts. local, as well as other service increases.
Any faults in this plan?
(Any faults in this plan? )
Just the two services on the N side and none on the south side nights and weekends. I think Mr. Greenberger is the winner, with.
B: West End local, N Side of Bridge, 6th Avenue Express, Concourse local, all times.
Q: Brighton local, S Side of Bridge, Broadway Express to 57th all times.
D: Brighton and Concourse Express, N side of Bridge, 6th Avenue express, except nights and weekends.
N: Sea Beach local and Broadway express to Astoria, S side of bridge, except local via tunnel when D is not running.
You get balance at all times, plus 4th Avenue service to Grand Street at all times.
R and M as now, with perhaps another special through the tunnel rush hours as well. That will provide the needed service to Lower Manhattan.
R and M as now, with perhaps another special through the tunnel rush hours as well. That will provide the needed service to Lower Manhattan.
Currently, the R operates as a shuttle between 36th and 95th Sts Brooklyn, during midnight hours.
What service will be provided for City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, Whitehall, Court and Lawrence during these hours?
(Currently, the R operates as a shuttle between 36th and 95th Sts Brooklyn, during midnight hours. What service will be provided for City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, Whitehall, Court and Lawrence during these hours?)
I can't speak for Mr. Greenberger without going all the way back, but the plan calls for the N to move to the tunnel when the D isn't running, so service on the bridge will continue to be balanced (B north side, Q Brighton south side). So all stations will be served.
Midnight service is awful, awful, awful. Twenty minutue waits, and you have an extra wait to get to your destination because of the shuttles. Plus everything local. And we're not even talking about G.O.s.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I still think we'd be better off with high-frequency IRT service as far as transfer points at Queensborough Plaza in Queens, the Hub and 161st Street in the Bronx, and Atlantic Avenue and Grand Army Plaza in Brooklyn, with special night owl buses from there.
Service would be better. Your walk to the train in Manhattan might be a block or two longer, but if the bus network was properly planned you could end up with no more than a 2.5 mintue wait for a train, followed by a no more than ten minute wait for a bus, with no other waits, followed by a short walk. Buses could be given the ability to turn all the lights green in the middle of the night along these routes.
Costs would be cut. With the B division and the A division express tracks shut down each night, maintenance would be faster and safer. With the stations closed, locked, dark, and electronically monitored, crime and vandalism would go down.
As was stated, the N would run via tunnel (and thus serve Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, and City Hall) when the D isn't running, which, according to our musings here, would be nights and weekends.
As the R is a shuttle late nights only, this is exactly when the N would be in the Montague Tunnel as well as serving lower Manhattan, in addition to weekends.
One problem with this plan is that the BMT Broadway local tracks are underutilized. Rush hour service between Queens and the downtown business district is limited to 15 tph. The R is going to get quite crowded south of 14th St.
What do I win?
Larry, I think you partly misunderstood my plan. I have the Q (Brighton Express) running on weekends (south side) from 7 AM to 8 PM. Basically, the only time there would be unbalance would be with running only the D over the bridge at night (north side), when there are only 3 tph in each direction, anyway.
This sounds very good (the "Greenberger Plan").
...6th ave Shuttle trains have beeen increased to 10 car consists
Good. The F line was packed too heavily south of 34th St.
I was told that there were simply not enough cars to do that.
Saw a ten car (r32s) 6th ave. shuttle @ approx. noon on wednesday N/B at 34th. Will look again today.
Peace,
ANDEE
Checked it again today, Thursday, and yes it is a 10 car consist of r32s lead by north motor #3725. Guess they found the cars somewhere.
Peace,
ANDEE
The GO on the 5 this weekend is good for me. I need to get to 59th Columbus Circle by 9:30 for the Nostalgia Train. Now, I can take the 5 right to 72nd and get a 1. With my luck, there will be a GO on the 1 that makes it run express. And, by the way, last time they ran this GO the 5 just went past South Ferry. Didn't the Redbirds stop there before they got the R-62s?
IIRC, the 2 G/O last September had the redbirds
taking the ferry loop (and some of those redheads
even STOPPED at SF!)
I had one today on a S/B R at Steinway at 2:15pm. He rode with a TA employee, so I guess some of the guys are still being closely supervised. He did well with the timer right where the R and N/W merge. Good luck to him, he did a great job.
Well, SubTalkers, I'm taking AE from NYP to BOS tomorrow. When should I venture back to the Bistro Car to see if I can get a look at the speed readout in the conductor's cab? Like, how long after which stop(s)? Hopefully, someone will be there to open it up for me if I'm a nice enough guy!
You should go to the Cafe car after the train passes Kingston, RI.
My friend rode AE from Boston to DC. He says there is a 150-mph section is between Kingston and Providence. The conductor will make an announcement when the train reaches 150 mph at that section.
He also says there is a short 150-mph section east of Providence. Conductors usually don't make announcements at that section.
Chaohwa
Iunderstand that Acelas have been running at 140 mph in certain sections of track between NY and Washington, esp on NJ Transit/SEPTA territory where 4 tracks are available.
Actually the highest speed between NY and DC is 135 mph in New Jersey.
Chaohwa
I had read that Amtrak was running certain trains in service at 140 mph as a test...
However, it is still 135 mph in revenue service.
Chaohwa
Update us if you hear about test results?
If I have the test information, I will definitely post it.
Chaohwa
In NJ, none of the trains can go above the restricted speed limit of 100mph, unless if engineer professors can push the wall and go faster without any complaints or service disruptions.
The reason being is because NJ is an overly populated state, and common sense has it that AE trains cannot just zip past through people at above 100mph in these areas. The top speeds of 130-150mph will be reached in sections east of New York, and south (west) of the crowded 30th St. Station and Philadelphia area.
When I was riding an NJT train from Trenton/Princeton Jct. to Metuchen, I saw the periodical yellow, speed limit signs between the catenary wires. Since there is a long gap from Princeton Jct. to New Brunswick, trains on the tracks 2 & 3 express are allowed 100 mph, but I also noticed that speeds kept decreasing to 95mph, 90mph, 80mph, then back to 95mph and 100mph. I wonder why this is so.
Unfortunately, the local rails (tracks 1 & 4) used by NJT can only reach 75-80 tops here.
I've never ridden an AE train before, but I would love to, esp. that feel of the 150mph zip to Boston.
Railfan Pete.
"The reason being is because NJ is an overly populated state, and common sense has it that AE trains cannot just zip past through people at above 100mph in these areas. The top speeds of 130-150mph will be reached in sections east of New York, and south (west) of the crowded 30th St. Station and Philadelphia area."
Are you serious?
We have a separated ROW, no grade crossings, with an express track. The train isn't passing anybody, unless there are a lot of people wandering on the ROW itself. There's no legitimate reason for that speed restriction.
I'm tempted to call NJ Transit's PI office and ask about this...
I told you my experience on AE three weeks ago.
I was near the Conductor's room. There is a speedmeter inside the room. It showed "125 mph" when my southbound AE was north of Trenton, NJ.
Chaohwa
Um, Amtrak trains quite frequently go above 100. It is NJT trains that are restricted. The Yellow signs are "Approach Periment Speed Restriction" signs. It means that the trains have to SLOW to that speed by the time the pass the board. They can go back to linespeed (125mph) once the pass the [R] board. I have seen both 110 and 105 APS signs on the NEC in New Jersey. Also, the zone b/t PORTAL and the North River tubes frequently sees 125 running.
And that's because NJT operates on the local track where a "skip-stop" can apply suction to unsuspecting passengers while it rockets past the platform...right?
Acela Express trains (and, for that matter, all Amtrak trains) can run at speeds higher than 100 mph in NJ. NJ Transit trains, however, have lower allowed speeds.
That's correct, Chaohwa... between Providence and Sharon, as you pass through South Attleboro, Attleboro, and Mansfield.
Todd,
I plan to visit STM on Friday. Since it's a workday, I doubt you'll be around. Is there anything new there I should look for? Also, I'm taking the red-then-orange-then-blue lines from South Station to Logan to pick up a rental car. (I thought this would be easier since we're driving to Maine - no Big Dig or downtown traffic to deal with.) Are there any T "G.O.'s" or traffic trouble spots between Logan and Maine I should be aware of?
I emailed this same note to you, but I wasn't sure if you would get it by tomorrow morning, when we leave.
-KP
I've replied via private email.
But the T doesn't generally do GOs on weekdays, since the system shuts down from 1-5am. There are occasional weekend work programs, such as the current one to upgrade the rails on the Green Line (to accomodate the oh-so-tempramental Type-8s).
It is 150mph between milepost 162 and 170, except on the #1 track for curves between 167.5 and 167.7 and 168.5 and 168.7 where it is 130, and then 150 again between MP 195 and 205
Centered around Kingston, RI. I rode it today from Route 128 to NYP, on time and comfy. Even with much track work on CT, we hit every station on the mark. The "quiet car" is wonderful.
In between appointments I rode the Q & W, and met up with track-map-guru Peter D.
I plan to railfan in Boston on Sunday late morning/early afternoon. That's what worked out schedule-wise. Is the Mattapan trolley running on Sundays? I want to ride the green line too. How is the Sunday service schedule? Worth railfanning?
Yes, the Mattapan-Ashmont trolley runs at all times the T runs (exception is roughly 1-5am (6am Sunday)).
On the Green line, try the B/Boston College to find a Type-8. Most lines have 5-10 minute headway on Sunday.
Pete, The 3/4 Ton Crew did all the colors on a Sunday, except the commuter line, last year from about 10 AM thur 11:30 (when they roll the streets up).
Get your day pass & enjoy.
Note we didn't do every piece of every line, but we were on all the colors (Red, Blue, Orange, Green).
Mr t__:^)
Hey Todd!!!
You have any idea when the next subtalk->Seashore trip is scheduled for?
I missed last years - I heard the subway car wqorked better then ;)
Saw the M going into service at Chambers today around 4:30 PM. Anyone know why?
Yup. At 6pm this evening I spotted an R68A on the Q express heading toward Manhattan at Prospect Park. This is great! My favorite cars on my favorite line. I wanted to get it on the Brighton Express but I had to get back to Brighton Beach by 7pm. So I only stayed on till Atlantic Avenue after I started a 2 word conversation with the C/R. At Atlantic Avenue I was talking to the platform C/R while waiting for perhaps another R68A on the Q express. I asked the C/R how many he's seen and how long he's been there. He said he saw 2 on the express all day. So, did anyone see R40s on the W or Q Local?
To some extent this is not shocking to see different equipment running the (Q) or line based on before the bridge swap, R-32s would appear from time to time.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I saw it leave 34th at 4:55 PM today (southbound). It may have been a put-in from Lex/63rd, as I saw an R-68A Q local yesterday get put in at 57th from Lex/63rd.
The R-68's are on the W, most of them or all of them. But if you want to see the 5000 R-68A's then the W line is the best place to look.
I hope that both Qs gets all R68As. I know this is heresy.
Terrific. Then we can watch turtle races along the Brighton.
I simply do not believe the claims that the R68/As are slower than the R40. To my knowledge, no statistics have been forwarded to support the claim. One statistic showing that they move at the same speed has been presented. The R68/As are quieter and sway less, perhaps giving the feeling that they are moving slower. And hey, nice graphic!
Inside the belly of a Hippo is a good place to get lulled to sleep.
The Dude from the Bronx keeps them mechanically fit, so enjoy the ride.
Mr t__:^)
I couldn't resist. Every time I'd see one of Heypaul's scrolling masterpieces, I'd be in stitches. I do apologize for breaking my resolve not to mention R-68s and speed in the same sentence. This one should be a little more neutral:
R-10s on the A along CPW
I can see it now:
LOCAL
EXPRESS
Instead of:
R-68
SLANT R-40
Wow ... and if you let your page run for a while, the R-68 local beats out the R-68 express :)
--Mark
Hippo alert ... be prepaired for a S_L_O_W express ... oh no Mr Bill.
Mr t__:^)
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Nah. Today my R68A W Train kicked the R40 N Train's ass when leaving 14 Street.
I see a lot of references on SubTalk to the R68’s being ‘Hippos’. Why are these cars slow? Is it that they accelerate more slowly? Do they have a lower top speed than other B Division cars?
Jim D. (RailBus)
Oh pleeeeease, let's not start this idiotic argument again.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm not looking to start an argument. I've just seen the Hippo description so often that I thought it was fact that the R68's were slow, or underpowered, or whatever.
Jim D. (RailBus)
Some will say they are, some will say they aren't, you'll see. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
They certainly feel slow much of the time. Whether they really are or not I'll leave for someone else to decide.
That said, I was on an N of R-68's today that just roared from Queensboro Plaza to Lex. It then crawled the rest of the way to 42nd -- there seemed to be problems on the local track ahead. A circle-Q passed us northbound between 57th and 49th. It passed us again southbound at 49th. We arrived at 42nd in time to meet the following diamond-Q.
Incidentally, the W:N ratio appears to be too high. The second of three consecutive northbound W's around 5pm made local stops. If one must run express in Queens, perhaps it should be the N instead of the W.
<<>>
As a W rider, that reminds me of the Q:W (or the old D/Q to W ratio along 6th Avenue) ratio..I havent been riding the W much, but whenever I headed to catch a B home to Brooklyn is was always the same...first a D would pass, then a Q, then another D, and sometimes another Q, and then the B would arrive. Always. I think they had the schedule set up as D-Q-D-B-D-Q-D-B
-West End Scott
"If one must run express in Queens, perhaps it should be the N instead of the W."
Why?
What difference does this make unless you are going to BROOKLYN!
The N is local on Broadway
The W is express on Broadway
Therefore ought not an express remain and express
and a local remain a local.
Seems simple to me.
Elias
The W runs more often than the N. Headways on the N were increased to make room for the W.
The reason they're called the hippo is because the anti-R68 crowd is remarkably foolish. Apart from their disdain from the facts, and their reliance exclusively on flawed perception, they are horrible zoologists. The hippo is a nimble creature.
"The hippo is a nimble creature. "
It is also a member of the pig family.
Be that as it may, there were no R-68s when I left NYC in 1983, the R-46 being the newest.
But I rode on several R-68s this trip, and on the Broadway Express without any slow zones they went as fast as (almost) any other cars that I can remember.
Elias
OH DEAR GOD NOOOOOOO!!!
Do you have any idea what a can of words you've opened up?
Oh well.
Dan
The train was running again today, same exact headway.
Check this PS 2 video game...it a train driving/ motorman simulator!!!. This is the Japanese version... It probably wont come out in America, but check out that contoller! Cooooooooollllll!
Cut and paste this into your browser and scroll down...!
http://www.geocities.com/chtang.geo/gaming.htm
- Sony announced a new PlayStation 2 training driving simulator called The Yamanote Line: Train Simulator Real, scheduled to release in Japan in October, for 5800 yen. The game features photo realistic graphics and change of daytime. There is a Training mode, in which you can learn the basic control of the game, you have to acquire a driver license in this mode to play the game. The game will be compatible with Taito's Densha de Go Controller Type 1 and Type 2, and a USB controller called Master Controller II for Train Simulator, which is compatible with PS2 and PC, and the retail price is 19800 yen.
I wonder if the Master Controller II for TS can be modified for running HO scale stuff? But I'll pass as Y19,800 is pricey.
$160 isn't so bad. It looks like a nice controller too. Wonder what JR would charge for a REAL one. :)
-Hank
Tell them to shut that window. Rain will ruin the car.
Did you go down there and get the number plate? :-)
I will. Tell me where this palce is.
Witte Marine, Arthur Kill Rd. Bring lots of cash. The guys first question to me when I asked about it was "How much is it worth to you?" He followed that up with "I can get at least $50 for that." I let him know the TA sells them for $5-$8, and all he had to say was "OK."
Not worth it to me.
-Hank
What's with this new fangled MTA policy of leaving the car numbers on the car when they are scrapped? All those redbirs i see in the photos here still have their number boards on. I guess that's good for those of you who want to be able to identify them as they head out to pasture, but I'd like to have some of those number boards! Do you think the MTA will leave them on, even when they start dropping them into the water? Also, if the MTA eventually wants to get rid of the whole redbird fleet, then all the parts they stripped from them will become surplus. Maybe the MTA will start selling/giving the stuff away a little early.
Damn, I can't believe Staten Island got the R-62s before the Flushing Line :-)
They impounded my subway car!! They ruined my beautiful half-ripped apart, Warn out train!!!
Is that where 1909 went? It was barged out of 207th Street only a few short months ago. I would have expected it to be in NJ, not over at SI. Could you make out anything else that appeared to be what was a subway car?
Hey Engine Brake, if you're reading this, I'd like to hear what you have to say. Is this Naporano's property?
-Stef
What happened to 1909?
What happened to 1909?
Derailment on the 6 line about five years ago.
Here is the picture from Transit World.
http://www.geocities.com/transit_world96/GLENN6398/R62a1909.jpg at 207th St Yard back in March, 2001. That happen back in November 24,1996 two days before my birthday & i live few blocks away when that happen.
Peace
David Justiniano
Nice picture - that's kind of reminiscent of what happened to BMT Standard #2299 - but this car didn't fare as well as the oldtimer did AND the wall didn't get knocked down either.
wayne
The car was wrecked at Hunts Point Av , 11/24/1996. It split a switch and went sideways causing side damage to the carbody.
-Stef
What happened to her friends, 1906-1910?
I saw them several years ago, signed up as a (10) in Wakefield's yard.
1906-10 (without 1909) are assigned to the 3 at present in single unit formation.
-Stef
Speaking of which, what happened to the orphaned R62's of the #4 line ?
Depends on which ones you're referring to.
Union Sq:
1435 and 1439 are gone. 1436 is still at 207th St unless I'm mistaken. 1440? Does anyone know what became of 1440? The infamous 1437, which split in two was scrapped earlier in the year.
Fordham Rd: 1366 and 1367, as well as 1368 and 1370 are at 207th St, but 1369 is still at Concourse. 1366 and 1367 are true orphans.
Perhaps #1440 was cut up on site. That was the third car, the one that wrapped around the pillar and ALMOST cut in two.
wayne
Perhaps #1440 was cut up on site. That was the third car, the one that wrapped around the pillar and ALMOST cut in two.
I can't imagine how 1440 could have been removed without being cut up.
That car should be down there with the R44s and the 14 Street Cars. They all left 207 on the same boat. That must be Sarnelli Brothers yard.
Was that IRT car part of IRT wreck at 14th street a few years ago or if not - what situation caused its
demise on Staten Island dumpsite? Anyone know?
Not that car. 1909 was involved in a mishap in the Bronx. She split a switch and went sideways into a tunnel wall.
-Stef
RE: IRT 1909 AT Staten Island scrap yard - thanks for the info, Stef !!
In addendum to Stef's information: the accident involving R62A #1909 occurred on November 24, 1996, just south of Hunts Point Avenue. The car suffered severe side-body impact damage as a result of collision with either some girders or a curtain wall.
wayne
Thanks, WAYNE,--- ALSO for the additional info on IRT R-62 # 1909 at scrap yard in Staten Island -
originally responded to me by STEF.
I recalled hearing about the crash back then from friends but it was about a week after it happened.
Any history on the other R-62's involved with l909 in the derailment - were they repaired and in service at this time - anyone know on SubTalk?
I would assume that cars coupled at each end of 1909
sustained significant end sheet damages.
As I understand it, #1909 was the last car on the train and the only one to sustain damage. Southbound leaving Hunts Point crossing from 1 to M. These cars were not linked up yet (single units.)
You are correct. #1716 was coupled to #1909 and suffered nothing more than a bruised anticlimber as #1909 kissed the wall sideways. Tin trains, I tell ya.
wayne
If the city decided to tear down the bridge to build a beautiful bridge that would make New York City shine and have subway service at the same time. What type of bridge would they use? (This is an opinion question)
I say that they would use a cable stayed bridge. If you get the right person to design the cable stayed bridge then you have a really nice looking bridge that can take a ton of weight daily. It would really make the city skyline nice with the Brooklyn Bridge, new Manny B and the World Trade Center there in the back (use you imagination)
What exactly is a cable stayed bridge?
Personally, a design i'd like is that type of bridge where the roadway is held below a giant arch the length of the span.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bridge/meetcable.html
copy and paste it, it's a very beautiful look bridge. Very Nice compared to the Suspension bridge
Oooh, pretty!
I approve highly.
How about we tear down the Willy B as well, and rebuild one as a Cable-Stay, and the other as my suspension/arch (like the Hell Gate Bridge!).
-West End Scott, it's all about the dubya
Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed that the Bayonne Bridge is readily visible from the south side Manhattan Bridge tracks?
We noticed the view of the Bayonne Bridge when we were walking over the bridge, and the view from the tracks is the same.
Cable-stayed is all the rage these days--Boston is getting one. They really look like 21st Century bridges. Would be nice if NYC could get one as well.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The nearest cable stayed bridge to NYC I believe is the bridge on the new Deleware 1 toll road over the Intercostal Waterway Canal south og Wilmington.
It is nice looking, but the logistics of tearing down the Manny B and putting up another bridge would be nightmarish, since the only place the new bridge could go would be exactly where the old bridge is, due to property condemnations/land access costs, location of access roads to and from the bridge, let alone the problem of replacing the subway lines to Brooklyn
If the Manny B ever was torn down, odds are they would either replace it with a tunnel (which could be build in a slightly different location) or a rail tunnel would have to be built first, before the bridge could be torn down and a vehicle-only (toll) bridge put up in the same place.
Come to think of it, are there any cable-stayed bridges that carry rail traffic?
Yes there is: Kap Shui Mun Bridge (Kong Kong)
· World’s longest cable stayed bridge carrying both road and rail
· Double deck, steel composite, aerodynamic shaped bridge deck
· Two 3-lane carriageways on the upper deck. Two railway tracks and two sheltered single emergency lane carriageways in the lower deck
· Weight of structural steel in main span deck 4,700 tons
Here is the link: http://bridge.tongji.edu.cn/bridges/cable/compos/kapshuimun.htm
Of course, there was also a documentary on The Discovery Channel recently about historic bridge disasters. The theory posed at the end of the show was that there's always been a major bridge failure about every 30 years, usually coinciding with the introduction of a new technology for bridge construction that hasn't been fully thought out yet. They then cut to a shot of the new Tampa Bay Skyway cable stay bridge and inferred the cable stay was the most likely candidate for the next major bridge engineering disaster (of course, the last Tampa Bay Skyway bridge was also the last major U.S. vehicular bridge disaster 15 years ago, but that was caused by a freighter nailing one of the towers in the fog).
Kap Shui Mun Bridge is in Hong Kong, not in Kong Kong. Also the Tsing Ma Bridge in Hong Kong is the longest suspension bridge carrying both road and railway. They are the link to the new airport on Chep Lak Kok, near Lantau. They are called the Lantau Link. By the way, a tunnel for subway is better because the train need not to climb up from underground. Let Manhattan Bridge handling road traffic only, it will be better.
Hey by having it look nice it would be great and the city my use the bridge cause of the view it offers. By the way I knew you were going to catch on the Kong Kong I messed up on the typing and caught my self too late.
The Manny B and the Willie B are *nice* bridges.
But the city is full and doesn't need any more cars.
So all auto bridges need to be converted to rail or light rail, and sleek new bridges or tunnels (Hudson River) need to be built.
In my fantasy, I had envisioned a 34th Street Mall project that would have light rail running on it, and across the East River on a sleek bridge arching gracefully across.
For heavier subway traffic a new bridge in between the Manny and the Willie ought also to be of a sleek arching nature. It should have no less than 4 tracks on it, perhaps on two levels, maybe more. Maybe the LIRR might leap across the river here, and then go under the river, perhaps to Hoboken. Maybe even move auto traffic out of the Holland Tunnel and use one of those tubes. Let NJT in from the other side and turn those trains in Brooklyn.
I even drew such a map once, and they asked how much would it cost.
Eh... I did it all with just one pencil.... *THAT* couldn't have cost too much now, could it have had.
Elias
Build a clone of Hell Gate Bridge. It could carry subway trains around the clock and not even break a sweat.
Cars 205 and 207 on the track at JFK. Next day, cars 205 and 206 were running. 205 has 'Test Car' plastered on the side windows.
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/PAAirtrain%20205%20at%20JFK%20Yard-m.JPG
-Hank
PS-Anyone know what this is?
http://www.mindspring.com/~nixon1/jerseydock.JPG
PS-Anyone know what this is?
Sure, I do. It's a puttinstuffinthingsforpeopleinator and it can be yours for the LOW LOW price of just 3 easy payments of $499.99! As seen on TV!
Dan
Those airtrain cars look fake. Like bloated plastic toys. Why can't they be sleek and trim, to cut through the Queens air with proper poise? Why can't they look like all those great vehicles Europe and Japan have?
You can definately see the evolution of the vehicles from the original production run of ICTS cars to the Air Train units:
-Robert King
I was thinking they closely resemble a shortened SOAC.
-Hank
Now that you mention it, they do look like a SOAC that's been shortened, especially if you can visualize a SOAC with externally mounted doors and a slightly more rounded front end.
Vancouver should be getting some ICTS Mk. II cars as well within the next few years for the Skytrain extension/expansion there.
-Robert King
"Why can't they be sleek and trim, to cut through the Queens air with proper poise?"
1) Because "sleek and trim" means narrow, as in Boeing light-rail-car narrow, which is NOT a good thing for a train serving the airport and carrying passengers with overseas-trip amounts of luggage.
2) Proper poise? What is this, "Bridget Jones' Diary"? Gitouttahere. :^)
"Why can't they look like all those great vehicles Europe and Japan have?"
Umm, because those trains are intercity trains that get up to 100+mph, while the Airtrains are urban transit and have little need to go over 60mph or so.
Form follows function, people!
The second picture is of the old Reading RR coal dumper in Port Reading New Jersey.
There really nice!
N/W Broadway Line
Compliments to the photographer who took the beautiful picture of Main Street-Flushing's express track with the Redbird framed by columns. Nice composition!
Hey now, lets not confuse SubTalk with the entire rest of the site. :-)
But, to give credit where credit is due, the photo in question was taken by Salaam Allah. And although I usually crop a 400x100 section of a photo to use for a banner, his was a panoramic photo already in the proper aspect ratio, I didn't have to crop it at all.
-Dave
Cheers, Salaam!!
Mr David Pirmann , ( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 ) RonInBayside ..
First of all folks please !!! I do need to RE-SCANN that photo & submit a better & sharper verson of that photo!
I had just bought this epson#2500 copier scanner & I was a total failure with the operations of scanning negatives
not using the settings to correctly bring out the correct atmosphere of that photo which that scan in my opinion was
not as clear as i wanted to be ( however i did fix how to do scanning of negatives to a 1997 machitosh i mac ) ...
the camera was the very first minolta freedom vista QD 1991 model one piece panorama 35 mm camera that was
one piece & not a disposable type for example : ( use one time & throw away the camera body ) you know those type !
it measures only 114.5X61x33*mm (4-1/2 x 2-7 /16 x 1- 5/ 16 in ) in size weighs bout' 9 oz. uses a energizer battery #el123ap
duracell#dl123a 3 volt battery to drive the flash AF focus meter cells thread & frame advance etc.. film kodax max 400 speed
the camera cost me a little over $50.oo but not more than $100.oo total including all california taxes
the lens is a 24mm type ( YEA EXTRA WIDE ) ....the type of lens i like for wide scenic shooting i do out here in the wild wild west !!
uses a simple infared autofocus FROM 0.9 to infinity ( the trick is to cover up the meter cells hold the camera on a stable prop )
& since i own 2 of these wonders i disabled the flash on one for night photography & left the other one alone for people use etc..
so there it is Howevr i revisited this area the next year with a sonydsc s30 digital camera & retook some of these shots !!
It was hard work shooting a railfan video of the # 7 plus taking sitll shots but i did the best i could sorry folks ( Salaam Allah )
go go redbirds see you this fall in nyc at the railfan window shootin video & still shots again ....lol!! .........he he he he!!
Mr David Pirmann , ( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 ) RonInBayside ..
First of all folks please !!! I do need to RE-SCANN that photo & submit a better & sharper verson of that photo!
I had just bought this epson#2500 copier scanner & I was a total failure with the operations of scanning negatives
not using the settings to correctly bring out the correct atmosphere of that photo which that scan in my opinion was
not as clear as i wanted to be ( however i did fix how to do scanning of negatives to a 1997 machitosh i mac ) ...
the camera was the very first minolta freedom vista QD 1991 model one piece panorama 35 mm camera that was
one piece & not a disposable type for example : ( use one time & throw away the camera body ) you know those type !
it measures only 114.5X61x33*mm (4-1/2 x 2-7 /16 x 1- 5/ 16 in ) in size weighs bout' 9 oz. uses a energizer battery #el123ap
duracell#dl123a 3 volt battery to drive the flash AF focus meter cells thread & frame advance etc.. film kodax max 400 speed
the camera cost me a little over $50.oo but not more than $100.oo total including all california taxes
the lens is a 24mm type ( YEA EXTRA WIDE ) ....the type of lens i like for wide scenic shooting i do out here in the wild wild west !!
uses a simple infared autofocus FROM 0.9 to infinity ( the trick is to cover up the meter cells hold the camera on a stable prop )
& since i own 2 of these wonders i disabled the flash on one for night photography & left the other one alone for people use etc..
so there it is However- i revisited this area the next year with a sonydsc s30 digital camera & retook some of these shots !!
It was hard work shooting a railfan video of the # 7 plus taking still shots but i did the best i could sorry folks ( Salaam Allah )
go go redbirds see you this fall in nyc at the railfan window shootin video & still shots again ....lol!! .........he he he he!!
All right, maybe it's okay at Coney Island, Astoria, and Far Rockaway where turnaround time is about 10 minutes and low volumes of people are boarding. But at 57th/7th and 34th?! As if it weren't confusing enough, you have to close and reopen the doors? People think the train is about to leave, so they go for the Q as opposed to the N, doors close, N train leaves, doors reopen? I know on the R-68s you have to de-zone and re-zone, but why can't this be done before arriving?
After leaving 42nd, conductors should switch to the other cab, and open the doors from the appropriate cab for the reverse direction at the terminal!
>>After leaving 42nd, conductors should switch to the other cab, and open the doors from the appropriate cab for the reverse direction at the terminal!<<
Did you actually think about that? Switching cabs before the terminal? That'd be kinda silly, don't you think?
Yes, and switching cabs while in the terminal, which requires the doors to be closed and reopened (with pax constantly holding the doors), is much less silly. I've seen several conductors switch before the terminal at Coney Island, it should be a reccommended practice.
Why do conductors need to switch cabs at all (assuming transverse cabs)?
So that they can properly lined up with the C/R board. Proper procedure(at least in the IRT) is:
1. Train arrives in terminal and dumps.
2. C/R dezones from orginal operating position.
3. C/R crosses over and zone up the new operating position.
But why does any of this apply to the Grand Street shuttle? It's a single train running back and forth over a dedicated track. Boards and stop markers can be moved, if necessary.
No, no, NO! That's ACCEPTED procedure. Proper procedure is:
Train arrives at terminal and dumps.
CR opens doors from current operating position, allowing time for passengers to de-train.
CR closes the doors and de-zones train and then keys himself off.
New CR keys on and sets up new operating position, then opens doors.
Even the Grand Street shuttle closes and opens at each terminal.
What's involved in dezoning and rezoning, and does it apply to R-46's?
My understanding: Only one conductor position should be active at a time. Whatever operating position opened the doors must remain active until they're closed again. With shuttle trains (eg: Grand st. or Rockaway Park), since the cabs are only on the ends of the train, it's impossible to avoid this. But on full length trains with the cabs in the middle, there is a way to avoid it: Switch to the new cab before the terminal.
The Franklin ave shuttle trains are equipped with something (drum switches?) which somehow avoid this problem.
BTW: I think it's a rule that the conductor on transverse cabbed trains must be in the cab in the rear set. This is impossible on northbound G trains with 6206-6207.
The Grand shuttle doors close and reopen almost immediately. Obviously the C/R can't get from one end of the train to the other in that time. Why doesn't the C/R just stay in the same place?
The operateor on the West end brought the train into times square, while the operataor on the east end opened the doors.
Now the operator on the east end wants to drive the train, but he cannont since he is the conductor. so he must close the doors in order to "sigh off" as conductor, and then move his control key to the operator's console.
Then the dude at the other end of the train can move his key to the conductor's console and open the doors.
I was not aware that the conductor could not sign off with his doors open. Maybe this is a thing with the newer cars.
Elias
The east end T/O dose not zone out. He dose both jobs at all the time. This was done to save time having the T/O changing end. That why the line is call OPTO even know there are two T/O's. I heard this is going to be done next pick to the Grand Street Shuttle. Right know there is two C/R's and two T/O's on bord.
Robert
Yes, this was confusing to people boarding the B train at 34th Street.
The conductor would say "Last Stop ! All Out" and close the doors.
Obviously it took a new conductor to open the doors again and announce the new Uptown B Train.
Elias.
The rules mandate that trains may only be re-zoned while stopped in a station with the doors closed. All car classes with transverse cabs must be re-zoned at each terminal so that the CR will be in the correct position for the next trip. Occasionally, atrain that is de-zoned while between stations will also experience loss of TO indication. At other times, CR have been known to re-zone between stations ( or even in the terminal before opening the doors) and then open up the doors on the wrong side. As a result, the practice is a no-no.
With all the supervision out in the field the last few days, every CR is playing it safe with the re-zoning.
In the hustle at 57st, I saw one train which never got re-zoned in time. The departure lights went off as the C/R closed from the "old" cab, and the T/O left. I presume he fixed this while in 42st.
What exactly is "de-zoning" and "re-zoning", how are they done, and why do they all of a sudden have to close the doors while doing it? I've never seen that happen until this week!
- Lyle Goldman
On Thu Jul 26 00:09:05 2001, Lyle Goldman wrote:
>
> What exactly is "de-zoning" and "re-zoning", how are they done,
> and why do they all of a sudden have to close the doors while doing it?
> I've never seen that happen until this week!
No one here can tell me?
- Lyle Goldman
>>> No one here can tell me? <<<
Read the thread. It was pretty well coverd. It is closing the C/R's position and then reopening a new one.
Tom
Yes Henry, I totally agree with you. Actually, the practice of re-zoning and opening up at a terminal from the opposite cab was the general rule for a long time. Then one day some imbecile (you have to realize I work with some real rocket scientists) was in the middle of this out at Far Rockaway, re-zoned and opened up on the wrong side! How you can open up on the wrong (non-platform) side at a station like Far Rock is beyond me. Yet I'll bet this jerk still has a job (for political reasons, naturally), and the rest of us have to suffer with this crap because of them screwing up. Like Alex said, these supervisors are all over the place nowadays with the service changes, we're just trying to play their game -- it's easier than the grief we'd encounter otherwise.
Some PATH conductors switch cars between stations so they can get to the right control box.
First of all, zoning up a train can only be done R44, R46, R62, R62A, R68, R68A trains (R40s and R42s can be zoned up, but they don't have transverse cabs; therefore, there is no need to set up a new operating position). Conductors do this to set up the operating position from which they will operate the doors. Generally, the conductor operates between the fourth and fifth cars of a full length train consisting of 8 75-foot cars in the fifth car unless there is an unusual circumstance to warrant operating in the fourth car (and there is a good reason for this. In the event that the train becomes uncoupled, the conductor will be in the cab to operate a handbrake and notify the Control Center immediately).
Once at a terminal, the conductor is supposed to open the doors to allow departing passengers to leave the train. Once all have left, the conductor is to close the doors of the train and once receiving indication, de-zones; that is, cancels out the operating position. He is to then key himself off the train through the crew door. The next departing conductor of that train then keys himself on the train and sets up the operating position on the train to go in the opposite direction.
This is the way that the TA wants the procedure to be done. Presumably, it is to prevent conductors from opening doors on the wrong side of the train, especially outdoors when trains are on open air structures. This is in addition to the fact that there are now door enablers on some trains that prevent a conductor from opening doors without "permission" from a train operator. It's time consuming and it has it's flaws, but this is why trains open, close, and reopen at terminals and turn-back stations.
This reminds me why I should stay on the IRT.
Hey guy! Uh, yeah ... I expecially like the logic of "if the train uncouples" (no offense, Road Dog, we know it wasn't YOUR idea heh) so what does the TA have for procedure if say 2/3 car or 5/7 car uncouples? Oh, nevermind.
In the prewar car days, you were out between the cars and you keyed in in the ceiling outside your storm door. If you left the train, you'd just open up, take your key out and go. Seems as though the word "progress" doesn't always equate to "improvement" but then again, I can understand that if you need to change cabs, then you need to confuse the geese to clock out. I suppose ...
Your forgeting that on the R44/46/68/68a's that the other cars are linked by draw bar. Lot less likely to uncouple then in the middle of the 4 car set.
Though it sounds logical it is the first time I've heard of a reason why the conductor has to ride in the cab of the 5th car instead of the 4th but then Logic and TA are oxymorons.
Heh. Sorry, I forgot about the 4 car sets ... when I left the system, they were only doing pairs at the time but then again, I recall they were doing 4's with the bing-bongs. Taking this from the sublime to ridiculous and then laying it up, I would imagine if a conductor HAD to do a BIE, he'd be nailed for "out of title work" ... heh.
>Generally, the conductor operates between the fourth and fifth cars of a full length train consisting of 8 75-foot cars in the fifth car unless there is an unusual circumstance to warrant operating in the fourth car
Just the other day my conductor on the F to 179 had to change positions at Queens Plaza because he said, the buttons woudn't work. (He was having troble closing)
As far as the "door enabler" goes, it is only in operation when the reverser is thrown. If the reverser is centered, then the enabler is turned off and the C/R can open/close the doors without "permission".
Thanks, Z. I'll have to remember that one.
It has nothing to do with conserving A/C on hot days or heat on cold days?
--Mark
Sorry, Mark. There's no connection.
Hmm. The problem that you have mentioned doesn't happen at Flatbush Av. (2) or the (7)Flushing line trains at Times Square, Jamaica Center (E,J,Z trains), World Trade Center (E). After each route, the conductor leaves his train post for his next route, or if he has break or off duty. He or she does not close the doors, because then he or she wouldn't be able to get out. Perhaps if you could render your information more clearly, I would understand.
By the way, the turnaround time is approx. 10 minutes for every terminal station. The terminal station's dispatcher, at his office, rings a bell exactly once, which signals the train's departure time and for the conductors to close the doors to depart. As you have mentioned, the turnaround time and the door closures do not apply to #6 trains at Brooklyn Bridge, and the #5 trains (normal service, not rush hour only) at Bowling Green.
: )
Railfan Pete.
This only applies to car classes with transverse cabs. The 7, J, and Z don't do this because the cars all have half-width cabs. Most Es are R-32, so that's why you've not seen them do this at WTC and JC. Most 2s are either R-33 (half-width cabs) or R-142(has something that makes this unnecessary).
You have to do the same proceedure with the R142 as with any other Transverse cab equipment.
Here we go again.......... 6646-50 are in the process of being delivered to East 180th Street Barn for a second day in a row.
Gosh, where's the damn webcam when you need it?!? Perhaps this should be on my future to do list.
#1 Thing To Do: Install Webcam. Heh.
-Stef
No sign of 6646-6650?
That would bring the total number of delivered R-142s up to 275.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What? You lost me there. I spotted 6646-50, so I would guess that 6641-45 are not too far behind.
-Stef
i think there are more ways then for but so far i can only think of 4.
1. if the Motorman takes his/her hand off deadman
2. if they move brake handle above 80lbs of air pressure(full service brake)
3. If Motorman or passenger pulls Emergency brake
4. Run a red signal and get tripped
are there any other ways i have forgotten?>
are there any other ways i have forgotten?
Yeah. Divine wrath, Murphy's law and dead people on train tracks. Presumably very large, slow rats could trip the tripcocks too, but I doubt they'd get away without severe death.
Dan
And yellow paint on their backs for easy identification. :)
They'd have white paint. The wayside trip arms are painted yellow,
the onboard trip cocks are white.
Btw, I know at least one m/m who did get tripped by a rat and
had the pleasure of "clearing the debris from the roadbed"
Yowsers ... back in my day they were yeller. Then again, it'd make sense that they'd be a different color to pick up the yeller paint off the arm itself. Back in my days if you hit one, the objective was to get the railroad running again - everybody knew if you dumped on a homeball, didn't need "proff" on the cock ... the amount of time it took when they saw your lights on the board at a homeball while you climbed down to reset and then recharge made it pretty obvious to the tower what had happened, and you got to explain it to the TMO when you were done.
What I find amusing about the current state of affairs is how often the trippers seem to come up under the second car. Back in my days, that was very rare. VERY rare ...
How does a dead person on the tracks cause the train to go into emergency? Does the train see the dead person, like that guy in the movie "Scary Movie" who said "I see dead people," and then it goes into emergency somehow? Note: I have not seen the movie "Scary Movie." I got that quote from seeing the previews/ads on the TeeVee.
The body of the person on the roadbed gets struck by the tripcock.
I never would have come up with that. Nice. Better not be any dead people laying across the tracks of my rush hour Q Express.
There are many many more ways that the 4 simple ways you've mentioned.
what's the deadman?
the deadman is the controller that the Motorman must hold while the Train is moving at all times. If he relaxes his grip on it, the train will trigger an emergency brake system. If u wanna see how this works, go to the last stop of a subway line like Chambers on the E or wakefield on the 2 and watch the Motorman dump the train.
The deadman is a device to stop a train if the motorman should drop dead. On most subway equipment this consists of holding the control leaver down while operating it through its notches.
On older diesel locomotives this consisted of a foot rest that had to be held depressed. On newer locomotives it takes the form of the "Alerter" that must be responded to every few seconds.
The idea is to prevent a runaway train in the event that the operator dies or takes ill or something. The device dates back to some of the earliest steam locomotives, albeit there, there was a fireman on the locomotive who could control the train and bring it to a stop if needed.
Elias
On the 142's and 143's, it's the handle of the stick shift like controller. You twist it to a position parallel to the windshield.
wow... thanks guys... i guess that at last stops... when u hear the brakes... that's the t/o letting go huh? kewl...
The R-44s and R-46s also had this type of controller originally.
Well, it wasn't really a stick, from what I used to see. It was more like a knob that you twisted, and if I'm correct, I think brake was push up(forward) and power was down(toward you). This is the opposite of the new controllers.
On the R-44/R-46, the master controller was up for power and down for brake. Bottom position was emergency and locked position.
5. Brake pipe rupture.
David
6. Loss of battery
7. Making an add. When the couplers make contact, it dumps.
Someone said when they separate, but when doing cuts, they don't dump on their own. I'm not sure about accidental pull-aparts.
Wouldn't a breakaway dump the air from the brake pipe hece emergancy?
E-CAM circuit breaker
Huh? Which one is the ECAM circuit breaker. You mean CB+?
If cutting out the group switch causes the train to go in the
hole, that sounds like a design defect.
Not quite Jeff. On the E-Cams there is a secondary B+ breaker that the train operators are calling the E-Cam Breaker. Actually it's the B+ to the emergency contactor. Cut it off and ......CHOWWWWW
That's different from "classic" wiring. You mean if the EC loses
power it causes an emergency application on these cars? How does
that happen? The EC used to just be a switch that was closed by
BP pressure. The only electrical way to get emergency was to
energize the EMV. Please bring me up to speed.
hey guys thanx for your answers. it might also be interesting to know that on LIRR, not answering the Automatic speed control within the 8 seconds, will also put a train in emergency
I'd rather call it the E-Cam breaker than that wonderful little id sign that's been placed under it. The breaker is properly labeled EMER. If it trips out, the train dumps and recharges, BUT the needles do not cross.
Here's a good one, and if y'all don't believe me, all I can say is that I found this out by mistake a couple of years ago and have recreated it many times since to show other interested employees (unless a modification has since been made), on the even numbered CI rebuilt R42's (55 cars numbered from 4840 to 4949), drop or should the B+ trip in the operating car, CHOW! This does not happen to an M/K rebuilt! I have to find out, after I come back to the M after my vacation, if the same thing happens if the even car is elsewhere in the consist.
This should be normal on cars with Westinghouse Static Converters. When the battery is lost, the Lay-Up relay drops out - hence - CHOW.
I was stuck recently on an A with a leaky brake line that kept going into emergency.
Being held up under the east river at 3:30am with no A/C while the RCI's searched for the hissing sound was quite unwelcome. (But completely necessary, of course).
C'est la vie
I heard about that train of R44s, right? Pitkin released that train the night before after repairing the branch line assembly to the trip cocks for another brake pipe rupture. At least to them it made it out of the yard.
A train could be tripped by an object on the roadbed such as heypaul's Bar-B-Que grille.
:-D
BMTman
I resemble that remark. Nyuk, ntuk, nyuk.
We covered that one with the dead body on the track, but he could have been flipping burgers.
Train separation.
It's 80lbs on all types of cars or is it different for each?
R44 is the oddball. 110 normal full service reading.
Actually, it's straight air greater than 57 PSI needed to retain the brakepipe. 78 PSI +/- 2 is simply the maximum straight air of the service brake range.
besides looking at the Air gauge awaiting it to say 80lbs, how else does a Motorman know that he has enuf brake to let go of the deadman without an Emergency brake application?
There is a noch of which is right before the Emgince brake. Once you hit that noch you can let go of the dead man.
Robert
I was visiting my parents in Pennslyvania for two weeks, and made two trips into the city. The secnd, on Monday (23rd) was to witness the confusion.
And some confusion there was. I placed myself at the bottom of the south stairway on the downdown 6th Avenue platform at 34th Street.
People would run down the stairs to catch the B train waiting at the platform, and I'd tell them "Uptown B Train to the Bronx" And they would stop short and confusion would reign.
I told them to go back up stairs and follow the signs to the Q or W trains on the Broadway Line. It seems most understood that they wanted the Q or W trains, but did not seem to know that their *was* a Broadway Line. I told one elderly Hissadic Jew that it was running on the BMT line, and his face cleared and he said "Ahhhhh...., Thank You" and he went back upstairs.
One lady said "Oh Yeh..... That was the train we used this morning, wasn't it" Yup, that's the one I said. But she still needed directions to find it.
To others I told them that the "Whole world was changed while they were sleeping last night."
Anyway, I was glad that I got into the city to see this.
Elias
"And some confusion there was. I placed myself at the bottom of the south stairway on the downdown 6th Avenue platform at 34th Street."
I think many of the people running down the stairs knew that the D and B trains to Brooklyn had flown the coop, but did not realize that that lovely empty train sitting on the express track was not going to one stop them to West 4th Street.
The F Trains were very very crowded and people had to squeeze onto them. There were no S trains at this end of the platform.
Oh well, they will get the hang of it.
Just try waiting for a subway train out here!
Elias
Elias did you have a camera around your neck? I asked you if you worked for the MTA? I had a feeling you were a railfan.
Yes, I did have a camera around my neck.
I'm back in North Dakota now, and I did enjoy my annual visit back east.
Anybody want to go to the Bronx?
Elias
>>>Anybody want to go to the Bronx? <<<
Sure...I go there every day.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Sure...I go there every day"
On my vacation I went there too. It was the first time since the 1960's that I rode on the Pelham line. I don't know what the neighborhoods looked like while I was riding in a hole in the ground, but once on the elevated, I was quite impressed, and wouldn't mind living there myself.... well, here in North Dakota, we *do* have a *little* more space : )
I rode on a redbird express up to 125th street, and I must say, those cars look the best I have ever seen them, and then on an R142A to Pelham. Thanks to the T/O who visited with me at the end of the run.
I rode back to City Hall, and around the loop, which hasnt changed much since I did it in the '60s, then I changed to the J train at Chambers Street. (Say... I think that platform could use a little work).
On the J, there seemed to be a supervisor riding up front talking to the motorman. She said that she had heard that the Chambers line once went across the Manhattan Bridge, and I confirmed that, said I had taken the TT train through that loop several times.
Then when we got to the Willie B (the north side was closed due to construction, and trains had to single track across the bridge) where there was that great open cavern off to the right. That, I told them was the old street car terminal. It looked like they were doing some sort of work in there, but I remeber when the tracks and low street car platforms were still to be seen in there (no.... the cars were long gone by the time I went rail fanning in the 60s.) and then there was a nice run out to Jamacia.
Elias
... that takes forever to build transit or rail lines. I recently read the classic novel A Town Like Alice by the Australian author Nevil Shute. Written in 1950, much of the book's action takes place in northern Australia in the late 1940's. In one scene, people in the city of Darwin, the capital of the Northern Territory, were complaining that the long-promised north-south rail line across the continent had never been built beyond Alice Springs, hundreds of miles short of Darwin. As a result, Darwin's economy was suffering.
Curious, I did a little Web searching, and it turns out that this rail situation was not fictional at all. Darwin had been promised a rail link to the rest of Australia for decades without result. Finally, just a couple of years ago, construction began on the line north of Alice Springs, and the connection to Darwin will be complete in 2004 - something like 60 years after it was first promised.
Does that ever sound like New York!
Not at all! Even the greatest optimists here are only expecting a start to 2nd Avenue construction in 2004.
And some day the Alaska Railroad will be connected to the rest of North America. In case you did not known anything beyond the Tri-state area, rail traffic is floated from Seattle to the 50th state.
Phil Hom
And right after that we can start work on the Bering Strait Tunnel. Then the long-awaited dream of a one-seat ride from Tacoma to Vladivostok will be a reality!
Mark
Too bad we can't go any farther than that (Russian rail gauge is 1.52 meters). Otherwise, we could go around the world by rail (once they lay the transatlantic tunnel)
I think that railroads in Spain and France, which are different gauge have interconnections in which the wheels are moved apart or together. My father recalls such an arrangement (while stopped) in 1980 at a station east of the border between the USSR and Czechoslovakia Ukraine and Slovakia.
Spain operated with at least three gauges, perhaps more, for many years... now most railroads there have been converted to standard gauge. I rode the Talgo across the French frontier in the early '70s when there was still a gauge change; the train simply stopped on a pit track, a mechanism was loosened at each axle, and the train proceeded slowly about a quarter mile to another pit track where the mechanism was tightened again. The rails were a type of girder rail during that quarter mile and forced the wheels apart or together as appropriate. The whole process took about 45 minutes, during which time Customs officials from both countries were aboard the train checking paperwork.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've actually been to Darwin. Talk about being isolated. There's a national park there that's the size of Connecticut (or something like that). Took two hours driving just to get to the visitor center. Darwinites must be clamoring for access. (Or maybe not-some may like the isolation).
When, why, and how does the #7 line have a 10 car train? I have never seen any such thing, just 11 car trains. But I keep hearing rumors of 10 car #7 trains. Fill me in please.
it usually runs 10 cars in the summer, so far as i know though they kept them 11 cars this summer...
There are NO plans for 10 car 7 trains this summer. I have no idea why. However the summer of 1998 was the same way. Summers of 1994-1997, 1999 and 2000 had 10 car 7 trains. 10 car 7 service first began in the summer of 1994.
And that 11th car is unbearably hot. I had to get out of one last night.
Missed your shower this morning? No problem! If you live on a line served by R-40s, just bring a bar of soap and stand at the end of the car. Let the air-conditioner condensation wash over you as it streams through the cracks in the ceiling panels! Cool off, enjoy yourself. Get clean!
Today was the second time I witnessed torrents of water, and I do mean torrents, streaming out from the cracks in the panels hiding the air-conditioning unit. Today it was in car 4182. Can't remember yesterday's car number. The car was not very cool, unless you happened to be standing under one of the streams as the train rounded a curve or jerked as it started pulling out of a station, as I almost was. I moved out of the way to the storm door, where the conductor and an instructor were standing with the door open.
"Sorry about the water," he said.
"This is the second time I've seen this on an R-40," I replied, "I've only seen it on the R-40."
"I told them about this ## years ago. They don't listen to me."
This can't be good for the electrical panel in the conductor's cab, which is right beneath the leaky a/c. Is the MTA doing anything about these major leaks?
When you have packaged units, as in most MU's, there is a problem with condensate if it is not tubed off correctly.
This is a simple fix.
There was a literal waterfall on one R-44 SIR last summer. It was no trickle, it was thick enough that water was exiting the train through the doors closest the A/C at every station. Every time the brakes were applied, people sitting in the seats on the car end had to raise their feet.
The R-62s and 68s also have this problem, but not as bad as the R-40s.
I've never seen this on R-32, 38, 46, 142.
Someone on nyc.transit reported rainstorms on an R-142 a day or two ago.
We saw this phenomenon on #4433 earlier this month; the more humid it gets, the more the Shovelnoses leak and drip. Only at the "A" end and only from the louvers right near the forward door. Like ItalianGuyinSI said, it seems like an HVAC setup problem and shouldn't be too tough to fix. The R40M does the same thing. #4511 was leaking like a faucet on the "J" the same trip. Both cars were very nicely cooled.
wayne
A few weeks ago, when I spent an hour at Grand Central watching Redbirds go by, one of the air coolers was crying. I should have brought an umbrella since the cooling worked best right near the drip.
by the way, what is the "storm door?" I assume you mean the end door of the car. So why not call it the "car end door?" Why is it a "Storm Door?"
In the pre-air conditioning days on the IRT and the shorter IND/BMT cars, when it was hot out you would leave the front door open to let the cooler air in (and on the IRT and BMT els that even included the very front door of the train at times), but you would close it when they was a storm, hence the "storm door" name.
Awesome. I'm learning more here than at college....of the stuff I want to learn about :)
The lowered ceiling portions at each end of the car house
an evaporator and blower motor. On any A/C system, condensate
will form around the evaporator as warm humid air is cooled.
There is a sheet metal drip pan beneath the evap coils, which
is pitched towards the corner where there is a fitting to a piece
of copper tubing that drains the condensate down to the roadbed.
The pan and the drain are supposed to be cleaned during inspection.
Train Dude could tell you during which cycle. If this is neglected,
crud accumulates at the bottom of the pan and blocks the drain.
The water overflows the pan and sits on top of the access doors
until it finds some crack from which to leak. Starting, stopping
and lateral forces around curves tend to slosh the water into a
corner where it rains down more forcefully.
I work on 86th Street in Brooklyn near the Bay Parkway Station. During the day (at least until this week), M trains would sit on the express track waitng for when service resumed in the afternoon. Last summer, they tended to be situated such that condensation was draining down on the crosswalks at 24th Avenue. It was quite a sight. I guess that is better than raining in the cars, unless you happen to be underneath when the water starts flowing.
These are packaged units. How many tons capacity?
They're not package units. They are a split system, with the
two evaps up top piped to a common compressor/condenser cradle
below. I don't remember the tonnage offhand. 8 tons per evap
comes to mind. I'll bet David has the spec book handy.
8 tons per evaporator? So if two evaporators are in each MU, that's 16 tons capacity, not bad for a subway car.
Who, me? Of course I do!
Two units, 9 tons each.
David
That's kind of what happens when the drain tube on your car's A/C becomes obstructed. The condensate ends up inside the car. It happened to me 5 years ago in Nebraska, and my first thought was my heater core had let go. Yikes! Funny thing, I inspected my drain tube afterwards, and it appeared to be fine. Maybe there doesn't seem to be much condensate here in Colorado because of the dry climate.
That happened to me once with a car back in 1989. The drain tube become plugged up thanks to spiders that decided to build a nest in the drain tube so the condensate dribbled into the footwell on the passenger's side.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
>>>...thanks to spiders ...<<<
Umm...how did you know it was spiders?
Peace,
ANDEE
It was spiders because I found one in the drain tube of the A/C.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
"Missed your shower this morning? No problem! If you live on a line served by R-40s, just bring a bar of soap and stand
at the end of the car. Let the air-conditioner condensation wash over you as it streams through the cracks in the
ceiling panels! Cool off, enjoy yourself. Get clean!"
You left something out that you need. A WASHCLOTH!!
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
How about there is a pipe that makes the water drop on the third rail?
Light show!
Ond second thought I shoud leave the A/C The Way it is leaky.
On some cars there is. I think it's the 62As. Standing at 59th St. I saw a 6 train pull out of the station and rinse the 3rd rail cover at the same time. Dangerous.
Dan
Many of the LIRR MU's can be quite drippy.
Zman said the Marys are running to Bay Parkway West End until 10:15PM.
Why the increase of 45 minutes??
I believe that the last northbound M leaves Bay Parkway at 9:30 pm, but the southbound M's continue to operate to Bay Parkway until 10:15 pm when they lay-up to Coney Island Yard.
The M has always worked that way in the Bay Parkway area.
Thanks for the info. How many M trains lay up at Stillwell Yard about?
About 8 layup in CI Yard.
Zman, one last Question, would you have the MU assignment roster now that the flip has taken place? I know the B is all Concourse, but unsure of the other lines. Thanks, Al.
I hope this answers your question:
A- Equipment used: R38,44. Maintenance Yards: 207 w/some work @ Pitkin
B/D- R68/Concourse
C- R32,38/Pitkin w/some work @ 207
E- R32,46/Jamaica
F/G- R46/Jamaica
J/M/Z- R40M,42/East NY
L- R40,40M,42/East NY
N- R32,40,68/Coney Island
Q- R40,68/Coney Island
R- R32,46/Jamaica
W- R68A/Coney Island
Rock Pk S- R44/Pitkin
Franklin S- R68/Coney Island
6th Av S- R32/Jamaica
Grand St S- R46/Jamaica
Doesn't the N also run R-68A's?
One or two of them, and once in a while. Not enough IMO to include them as regular cars on the N.
I didn't know there were so few.
Why does each line typically use only one or two models of car? Why not just pull the most convenient trainset out of the yard and send it out on whatever line needs it? One of the features of the N thatI like is its diversity.
"One of the features of the N thatI like is its diversity."
Railfans like diversity. Transit agencies don't, because when you mix equipment on lines, you need to be able to take care of more than one car type.
Washington Metrorail has one car design, fundamentally. MTA wishes it could do that too, frankly. The new generation of cars (R142-R143) appear to be close cousins, so that helps.
I can understand why the TA would want to limit the number of car types in each yard. But once a yard is home to a variety of car types already (like Coney Island, which has R-32, R-40, R-68, and R-68A), who cares (other than railfans) which types run on which lines? How would it hurt the TA for an occasional R-32 to run on the F or the W, seeing as the yards that take care of the F and W already have R-32's?
I'd love to see anything with a railfan window on the F. Occaisionally the G gets a loaner unit, but the F, alas, probably hasn't seen anything other than a 46 since the mid-70s.
As a child, I remember Slants on both the E & F, and an occaisional R 1/9. Too bad I didn't appreciate the 1/9s when they ran.
However, if one looks closely inside DC Metrorail cars, there are subtle difference between car series- seats and partions at car ends, particularly on the low-numbered units, can be different. Also the lenses on the lights that illuminate the door sills are different between different series.
But essentially, they all do look alike, and I'm sure are similarly maintained. If TA wanted a uniform fleet, wouldn't it just have been easier to order more 62s & 68s? (Wecould call 'em 62B & 68B). These are already proven models, and don't have a lot of new technology that's not proven over the long-term, and in the case of the strip maps, attractive to vandals.
Must be more than that. With 160 R68A's assigned to the W, that leaves 5 trainsets available for other lines. I saw one on the Q diamond on Tuesday, but that was it.
>>>>>>>With 160 R68A's assigned to the W, that leaves 5 trainsets available for other lines.
Not every R68A is in service right now. Some are up for inspections and can't be used until the inspection is complete (most Yard Dispatchers will purposely hold on to an inspection train 72 hours before the inspection actually comes up because if the train isn't there at exactly the prescribed time, then there's hell to pay). And some have mechanical problems that need to be fixed.
Since someone recently said that CI Yard had to use an R68 for W service on one day last week, that should tell you that not every car is always available.
Your saying that at least 40 R68A cars are not available for service at any given time? Seems like a lot.
The service requirement for R-68As is 160, leaving 40 cars. Of those 40, 32 are considered "unavailable," which means long-term holds, cars undergoing SMS work or other modifications, cars being inspected, or cars pending scrap (of which I don't believe any are). The remaining 8 cars are considered "spares."
David
Thanks for clearing that up. I had no idea that SMS required so many cars to be unavailable at any given time.
Inspections eat into the available fleet, as well, and as was pointed out by "Zman179" in this thread, with the R-68As one out-of-service car is really four out-of-service cars because they are linked.
David
>>>>>>>Your saying that at least 40 R68A cars are not available for service at any given time? Seems like a lot.
No way.
But lets look at some of the stats. You said earlier that there are 160 R68A cars assigned to the W. That equals 20 trains. Consider that W service operates to Astoria Monday-Friday. If the W operates at 8 minute intervals, then that means that the W would need a bare bones minimum of 18 trains to be in service at one time. That would leave a balance of 16 cars. And remember, if there's a problem with one car, then all four cars of the unit stay out of service.
Sometimes I see either something other than 32/38 on the C - looks like the A or E sometimes.
Thank you, Zman.
Hi all,
Wanted to let you all know that I've updated this site's NYC Subway route map.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
One comment: The Q & W line that goes to the MB does not have a station dot for the Canal St. bridge station. However, I noticed that you made the Canal St. station on the N & R as the express station. Not being picky. Thank you for your wonderful efforts.
Jose
It is not an error. An Express station has long been defined as a station where local (N/R) and express (Q/Q Diamond and W) trains satop. Canal is such a station. It is lioke saying I bought six donuts vs I bought a half a dozen donuts- you sitll have the same amoutn of donuts!
It is an error. Look at the map. There is no dot at all showing a Canal Street stop on the Q - W line.
What they meant about the Canal St station is that there's no dot showigng that the trains from the bridge actually stop there. The dot for Canal is *below* the junction of bridge and tunnel tracks.
Also, the northern terminal of the Q should have the same style symbol as the other diamond-terminals.
Other than that, it's GREAT! thanks!
Hi all,
Thanks for letting me know of 2 minor corrections...the station dot is now on Q/W on the bride line also made correction for northern diamond Q with box.
I gotta lay off correcting any maps after coming home working 12 1/2 hours, hehehe.
Michael Adler
Mike the Mailman in Denver
Mr. Adler,
Why did you use two yellow lines for the Q express and local? I would have expected you to show it as one yellow line, with the express and local stations indicated by the different station symbols.
When the Brighton line was the D and Q, didn't you show it as one orange line? (I seem to remember that you did.) The fact that the local and express are now called by the same letter name should not really alter the presentation. Likewise, if for some reason the TA decided to abolish the C train and turn the 8th Ave/Fulton St. local into the diamond-A, that shouldn't alter the presentation of this line as one solid blue line with local and express stops indicated by the different symbols.
Furthermore, a single line is used in the two other places where a local and express are called by the same letter/number: the 6 and the 7. (By the way, I was interested to see that you don't show the diamond-6 or diamond-7 symbols at all. I hadn't noticed that before.)
Also, use of the square stop symbols on the Q is not really consistent with the use of this convention elsewhere on the map. Elsewhere, the square stop symbol is used on a rush-hour-only line which is a different color from the regular line, such as the diamond-5 in the Bronx and Brooklyn, and the recently-eliminated diamond-M in Brooklyn.
So, I think it might be clearer and more consistent to show the Q with one yellow line.
Anyway, thanks for a great map.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Did you write to the TA and make that same complaint? :-)
Seriously the new "The Map" shows it the same way Michael did. It doesn't make any sense but that's the way it is... :)
Well, it wasn't really a "complaint". Overall, it is obviously an excellent map.
But, since you brought up the official map, I would agree that the Q is shown there with two lines. But this is consistent with how the official map shows the diamond-7 and the diamond-6, and even the W/N and the J/M. On Mr. Adler's map, however, the Q is the only use of the two-line convention.
Mostly I was questioning the inconsistency, rather than the validity of any one method (though I do express my own preference for the one-line method).
Ferdinand Cesarano
Actually it's inconsistent on the TA's part too; in all the other places they use the two lines for express it's for PEAK express, not four-track both directions express.
When the A ran express rush hours only, it was shown as two lines.
The reason for the double line is because they're both the same letter. Formerly you could simply look at the D or D·Q and it would tell you what stopped where. There is no other place in the system which has bidirectional express with the same letter for local and express.
Judging by the fantastic job they did at 57st, Astoria Blvd, and Ditmars; they don't seem to be supporting the two-different dots method.
The reason for the double line is because they're both the same letter. Formerly you could simply look at the D or D·Q and it would tell you what stopped where.
But, that still doesn't explain why it couldn't have been shown the same way Mr. Adler shows the 6 and the 7 -- one line, one route marker (you don't even need to show the diamond). The local and express stops are differentiated by two different station symbols.
Like this (with apologies to msh210):
\ O = express stop
\ 0 = local stop
O Church Ave.
\
\
0 Beverley Rd.
\
\
0 Cortelyou Rd.
(Q) \
\
O Newkirk Ave.
\
\
0 Ave. H
\
\
0 Ave. J
\
\
0 Ave. M
\
\
O Kings Hwy.
\
\
Ferdinand Cesarano
Oops!
In re-working this sentence while writing it, I got it a little messed up:
...if for some reason the TA decided to abolish the C train and turn the 8th Ave/Fulton St. local into the diamond-A...
Obviously that should have been "...turn the 8th Ave/Fulton St. express into the diamond-A and the local into the regular A..."
Anyway, the point is the same.
Ferdinand Cesarano
There already is a diamond A, it goes to Rockaway Park.
What's the weirdest rerouting you have ever seen or ridden? For example, has anyone ridden a G up 6th Avenue, or an M into the Bronx?
I once rode a D under Nassau Street and onto the Willie, where it reversed and rejoined the 6th Ave at Bway Lafayette.
I have seen R's at Parsons Archer earlier this summer.
I have seen non-revenue #7's on the BMT Bway tracks.
And, are there any lines on the BMT or IND unreachable from any other? Or did the connector under Chrystie street make every line accessible from every other?
www.forgotten-ny.com
And, are there any lines on the BMT or IND unreachable from any other? Or did the connector under Chrystie street make every line accessible from every other?
The connection on McDonald Ave between the IND and the Culver made the IND and BMT accessible to one another. The 11th St Connector provided an additional connection.
I got one for you
A non-revenue 4 train going down the brighton express tracks headed towards Coney Island. Also to boot it stopped inside Coney Island (doors remained closed .. it was waiting for a green signal) which really confused alot of people. It was cool seeing the R-62 go down that stretch.
It must have got onto the IND tracks in the Bronx....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hmmmm, lets see what i can remember that was out of the ordinary...........
R38 C train to Parsons-Archer (E)
E train to Euclid Av and to 168 St/Bway
R68's on the F
G via 6th Avenue (I operated two of them)
C to Lefferts Blvd
F via the West End and Broadway
M to 95th Street and to 168 St/Bway
I'm sure that there are a few others that don't come to mind right now.
That M (If the one you're talking about was earlier this year) switched over to the 8th Av. line after Bway Lafayette to get there.
I remember a J to Coney Island once.
There are no isolated BMT/IND lines in the sense that the Flushing Line is isolated from the rest of the IRT.
There are a few cases in which a discrete line (as opposed to a branch, like Concourse) would be isolated if a single junction was cut off. For example, Canarsie if something happened to the connection at Bway Jct. As we know, the entire Eastern Division of the BMT was isolated when the Willie B connection was closed.
I was in the Bay Area for about a week and I got a chance to ride on BART. Briefly I thought It was very clean no litter, and it had carpeting! Anyway I'm not sure about those distance based fares but I guess it is more like a commuter train (NJT LIRR) then a inter-city train (PATH) I guess would be the reason for the distance based fares. But I have a question the Station Agents, what exactly is there job? They can't make change for me (since I had only a $10 I had to buy a $10 card) and when I got on one day at nite the SA was litteraly laying across the turnstiles with the door to the booth open. I know any TA SA's would be jealous if they saw that. So in conclusion no place on earth beats the NY/NJ but I was impressed by the train. If anyone knows please do tell me there job if they have any, thanks.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The station agent is supposed to be there to assist customers if they have problems with the fare machines or turnstiles.
They are NOT there to make change.
Obviously, fromthe position you saw the SA in, the fare machines and turnstiles do NOT cause many problems.
On the other hand, the MUNI SA's in the level above BART under San Francisco Market Street are there to check passes and transfers and collect fares. Once the fare is paid, or pass/transfer displayed, they will unlock the turnstile for a customer to get through. They also issue transfers to those paying cash.
As for finding the BART trains clean and free of litter, you got very lucky. Usually there are newspapers strewn all over (thanks to the slobs who ride the trains...) and the carpet usually smells like piss or booze from the winos who camp out on the trains.
The newer cars have linoleum floors -- as well as the older cars that have gone through a rehab program. It's easier to mop up the piss and booze from linoleum.
man!!..........the san farnciscos rail systems were soooooo boring..!!! & BLAND ( like atlanta & some others )
( however though i found the the trolley buses & trolleys were nice ) :) 1979 was my first visit there ... lol !!
man!!..........the san franciscos rail systems were soooooo boring..!!! & BLAND ( like atlanta & some others )
( however though i found the the trolley buses & trolleys there were nice ) :) 1979 was my first visit there ... lol !!
Just because NJ is next to NY, you don't have to link the two. I (unfortunatley) was born and raised in NJ, at the first oppurtunity - I LEFT FOR NY, pronto..... Die NJ Die
What a remark! When I said NY/NJ I mean it as the states not as the inter-state trains. And how could you put NJ down like that? Anything NY has NJ has and cheaper!
Mike
"Mr MAss Transit"
How can I put NJ down???? I live there for over 20 years. I know the place. Cops running lose like storm troopers, racial profiling not just existing but official policy! The court system in NJ would embarrase a banana republic, especially at the munciple level. Social services more like one would expect in the backwood of Mississippi than a supposedly enlightend Northeast state.
Believe me, I'd rather live in a cardboard box in NY than in a mansion in NJ
How can I put NJ down???? I live there for over 20 years. I know the place. Cops running lose like storm troopers, racial profiling not just existing but official policy! Social services more like one would expect in the backwood of Mississippi than a supposedly enlightend Northeast state.
Don't you mean, those people in NJ actually have money, and they don't give a donkey's ass about social services?
The court system in NJ would embarrase a banana republic, especially at the munciple level.
I thought court system throughout the USA embarrassed a banana republic. I was always told that I should never allow myself to be sued in the USA, instead I should just shoot whoever that's gonna sue me and that way the justice system will favor me.
How come the first thread is gone in this posting?
Railfan Pete.
thank you i was going to ask that too !!! ...........lol !!!
Dave has moved it to the archives...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And it's about time, it was posted in 1969. :-)
Having been born and raised in NJ, and having lived the first 33-plus years of my life there, and having spent the last several years in various parts of Brooklyn, I can say -- categorically -- that you, sir, are off your rocker.
Would you rather have your kids go to school in the 5 boroughs than in almost any part on NJ (or upstate NY, for that matter)? Because, when my son gets to be school-age in a couple of years, he's either going to private school or we're moving as a family out to someplace like Summit or New Providence where one can get a decent public school education.
This is off-topic, however, and I shan't waste any more of this site's denizens' time on it.
Now, if you want to talk about something to do with railroads or mass transit, I'm all ears...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I thought It was very clean no litter, and it had.....carpeting! well the carpet floored subway cars of atlanta have it too... ugh !!
The marta system, in the lost city of " atlantis " ( atlanta ) 1983-1988 era... i do hope they REMOVED it buy now !!! he he he ..
why would anyone have CARPET in thier transit cars anyway ?? i did find the bart system quite boooorrriiiinnnnggg!! lol !!!
I thought It was very clean no litter, and it had.....carpeting! well the carpet floored subway cars of atlanta have it too... ugh !!
The marta system, in the lost city of " atlantis " ( atlanta ) 1983-1988 era... i do hope they REMOVED it buy now !!! he he he ..
why would anyone have CARPET in thier transit cars anyway ?? i did find the bart system quite boooorrriiiinnnnggg!! lol !!!
Washington Metrorail is carpeted. Gets vacuumed every day.
Another foamer. Making life difficult for railfans everywhere.
Peace,
ANDEE
Foamer sounds wrong, this guy is just disturbed.
No, he's not disturbed. He's a professional thief who knows his job very well.
This is defintly sad, it makes the name train buff sound bad. It makes it sound like we're just weird people. When it's a hobby, something that we think is really cool. I'm totally dissappointed in this lastest thing. What makes it sadder is the fact that he will not be the last one and there will be more people. The question is how much more will the MTA will tollerate before taking drastic action.
That idiot will keep going through the revolving door of the criminal justice system until he finally gets a judge annoyed enough to make him do some serious time, or something bad happens to him in jail to make him think hard about where his life is going, or he finally realizes that he is not a kid anymore. Most of the characters I encounter in the jail have the belief that nothing can happen to them, and that they are bullet proof. When they get the rude awakening that so many of them desperately need, for some it is too late, for others, they make an effort to change their lives.
Thank you for the interesting and concise observation
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee to call this guy a foamer is wrong. Call him what he is: a thief.
BMTman
He's really an imposter, too, in addition to being a theif.
-Robert King
He's really an imposter, too, in addition to being a thief.
-Robert King
I wonder if there is a charge for impersonating a gov't employee? (i know there is for impersonating a cop...)
Yes, it falls under "criminal impersonation" if he identified himself to anybody as an employee or provided a false name.
I wonder if that person's wearing of the stolen uniform would count as identifying himself to anybody as an employee or if that requires the guy to actually make a statement to another person (written or verbally) that he is an employee of the MTA.
I think a strong argument could be made in court that wearing the stolen uniform essentially made a false claim, at least to whoever happpened to see him in it, that he was an MTA employee.
-Robert King
While not QUITE the same, wearing a lookalike policeman's uniform is good enough under NYS law ... I would imagine that it would qualify. New York's laws tend to be the most perfected and also have the most juice. I'm sure they'll add that to the roster of charges.
ok..a foamer thief then...happy
Peace,
ANDEE
Just a couple of MTA things I was wondering about, they have nothing to do with each other:
-Is the Grand Street shuttle running two trains single track between Grand Street and Broadway-Lafayette, or just one train that turns around at Bway-Lafayette?
-Does anyone know when the next conductor's exam is?
Thanks to everyone in advance.
B63Mike
It's 1 train from what I know of. It might be two trains, but I see 1 train as the only option.
It's one 4 car train of R-46s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just one train. The other express track at B-L is used by the Queensbridge shuttle.
>>>>>>>>>>Does anyone know when the next conductor's exam is?
Not until 2003 at the least. The only tests on tap for 2002 are for Track Worker and Bus Operator.
Yesterday, I took the Q Local to DeKalb Avenue, and it was composed of R-68s. But when I crossed over to the northbound platform, a W train of R-68AS STOPPED at DeKalb Avenue. It was around 5pm. Why did the W train stooped at DeKalb Avenue? Usually the W bypasses DeKalb Avenue at all times. The < Q > Express R-40s does not have the front car marker lights on. What's the matter?
There must have been a signal problem will prevented the W from using the by-pass track.
As for that R40 slant there is probably a circuit problem or the bulbs in the from sign panel burned out and no one has gotten around to fixing it yet.
The W may have stopped at DeKalb to fill in for a gap in Q service. I was once on a B that stopped there, much to the C/R's surprise.
The diamond-Q on the front roll signs is a stick-on, so the light doesn't shine through. Get used to it. Don't complain about it too much or the express will get R-68's.
Yes DeKalb Tower does this when there is a delay in Brighton Service. It was done when the W was a B in the past so nothing is new here.
The problem is that coming from 4th Ave you only have one track to Dekalb Ave (Local Stop for 4th Ave) so having FOUR trains (M/N/R/W) is a little too much for one track and would delay normal service during rush hour so the W skips DeKalb via the bypass track unless they are filling in for Brighton Service.
And remember the W no only has to run on the M/N/R track but then cuts over to the Brighton Track in order to get back to the bridge.
Can someone explain why the W (and previously the B) almost always skips DeKalb? It only saves 90 seconds and it means W (or B) riders can not easily transfer for lower Manhattan and the finanacial district.
Or is DeKalb so busy with so many train stopping there that it is necessary to have one line bypass the station?
Craig
>
DeKalb is pretty busy. Besides, W riders can transfer to other lines at the Pacific-Atlantic stations.
Because the tracks are set up that way. DeKalb is a local station that happens to have four local tracks. The W would have to cross the M, N and R in order to stop there.
First off, the W skips Dekalb because all trains from 4th Ave must use one track from Pacific to Dekalb, both express and local. So 3 trains (M, N and R) share a single track. You can't fit anything else on this track. The 4th Ave express tracks feed directly into the bypass tracks (in fact, Dekalb Ave was originally designed as a 4th Ave. local station, and the "bypass" tracks are merely extensions of the express tracks). Second, your statement about inconvenient transfers from W/B trains to trains headed for lower Manhattan is false. The only trains that cannot directly be transfered to by the W not stopping at Dekalb are the 2 Brighton services, neither of which go near lower Manhattan.
Visited relatives in New York for the first time since 1997. We took Amtrak from Buffalo/Depew to NY-Penn, then LIRR to Great Neck. Some observations:
Greatest density of grade crossings between Rochester and Buffalo;
Best grade crossing: Village of Fairport (east of Rochester)
Freight trains run with about 20 minute headway on Sunday between Buffalo and Schenectady;
A lot of single tracking for Amtrak; most of the route is double track, though it looks like more tracks existed on the ROW in the past.
Most surprising station: Utica. Old trains lie outside station in downtown as decoration; plans for a South Adirondack Scenic Railway with southern terminus at Amtrak station.
Railfans taking videos at virtually every station upstate.
Hoping for better: We went to a wedding in Schenectady last summer. Noted that the station is an elevated structure in the heart of downtown. Looked to be at least four tracks, several platforms from ground. Actually......two tracks and an island platform. Western track used by train to Buffalo (both directions), eastern track probably used by train to Montreal (both directions). Unused area probably had two more tracks, one more platform.
Saddest sight: Lake Shore Limited arriving from Chicago in Albany 4-1/2 hours late on Sunday; passengers look like they've gone through a war.
Beautiful scenery along Hudson. Graffiti along Metro-North as bad as I remember it in NY in the 1970's. Some old station houses still used and renovated, others boarded up.
Another surprise....a mini-NYC subway yard just north and east of Yonkers station, containing cars similar to those shown in the Sub-Talk photo. Why are they outside the city? Do they connect with Broadway or Jerome yards?
Learned something new....Amtrak goes down west side of Manhattan to get to Penn Station; homeless people living near tunnel portals; tunnel walls are natural rock, not man-made concrete; at station, shares island platform with NJT.
LIRR concourse at Penn Station a complete zoo at PM rush hour. People stare at TV screens until the track number of their train appears, then run for the stairs. This is New York! Excited about first trip on LIRR in over 30 years.
So many tracks as we come out of the tunnel in Queens; Amtrak, Hunterspoint, Sunnyside Yard...I can't analyze it, train is moving too fast and I'm sitting in a middle car.
Port Washington line already "on its own" by Woodside station, using 2 tracks to one side.
Train is running express to Bayside. I'm surprised at how many people get off at those stations within Queens. The time must be more valuable to these people than the money.
On the return home, surprised at number of people heading into the city on LIRR on a Sunday. Told to stand in one place, hoping to get railfan window, then train pulls in with full length of cars. Oh well.
Talk to my cousin who is a retired engineer. I tell him about nycsubway.org. He's interested, but, alas, is not computer literate. Tells me he worked on fixing a bad design on subway cars manufactured in late 40's and early 50's. Seems interested in technical aspects of subways and railroads. (He commuted from Hicksville to Flatbush in his prime.) I always loved him, now I know why.
Anyway, we had a great time.
Another surprise....a mini-NYC subway yard just north and east of Yonkers station, containing cars similar to those shown in the Sub-Talk photo. Why are they outside the city? Do they connect with Broadway or Jerome yards?
This is the Kawasaki assembly plant... the cars are trucked to NYC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So did you sit in the middle of nowhere between Buffalo and Rochester for 45 minutes with no explanation???? Amtrak likes to do that!!!!
I'm looking for information on car assignments for the Q line in particular and all other lines effected by the Manny B change. For example, I'm wondering how many R68s, R40s, R32s and anything else (R42s??) that may have been assigned to the Q, D and W.
The only information on this site that I could find seems to end at 1998. Is there a link I missed here?
If I haven't missed a link for updated car assignments, could somebody post information as to current car assignments for the Q, D, W lines? Thanks in advance.
Q EXPRESS- 140 R40s
Q LOCAL - 144 R68s
W - 160 R68As
D - 104 R68s
B - 80 RR8s
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anybody know if the occasional R-40 will show up on the W on weekends, as was the case for the B? (There were no R-40 W's this past Sunday even though there was at least one R-40 B the day before.)
They probably will get a slant or two on the W. The B is out of the question is b/c it is based fully out of Concourse. So yeah, and maybe more than often we'll get one on the W.
David, I do not believe that the "W" will require any slants on the weekend, since the line, Stillwell to Pacific, requires only 10 consists, this can easily be handled by the newer equipment.
The old B didn't require them on the weekend either (there were none on weekdays, when more cars are in service), but they were there nonetheless.
Not that it really matters. The only unique feature of R-40's on the B was a railfan window through the DeKalb bypass. The weekend W doesn't pass DeKalb. I'd love to see an occasional R-40 on the weekday W but I'm not holding my breath.
The reason why you had shovelnoses on the B was so to give the R68A's some downtime, for SMS or whatever reason. The R68A's were running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Not so with the R40's.
Andee, can you post the rest of the MU assignments for me (us) if you get a few spare moments?
Thank you very much.
Al.
Guys - thanks for all the answers on the above lines.
Thing is - now you've got me wondering - where are all the R32s, 38s 40Ms and 42s????
Again thanks for your help.
There are R-32's on the Queensbridge shuttle, apparently taken off the N, which gained more R-40's to compensate. (I'm not sure where they came from. Perhaps off the Q, which now has a slightly shorter route than before.) No changes to the R-38, R-40M, or R-42 (although I thought the N was supposed to get some R-42's as part of this deal, as if its fleet isn't diverse enough already).
(although I thought the N was supposed to get some R-42's as part of this deal, as if its fleet isn't diverse enough already).
No, that's when the R-143's bump some of them (R-40's first) off of the Eastern Div.
THe extra slants came from East New York.
How could ENY afford that? The J/Z and L are unchanged and the M, if anything, needs more cars now than before.
M trains were dropped from 22 trains to 18. J/Z trains were dropped from 21 or 22 trains to 19 trains.
Unsure about the L, I believe it stayed the same at 21 trains. ENY now has 48 R-40 Shovelnoses, 99 R40M wanna-be shovelnoses, 391 R42.
28 R-40 Shovelboese went from ENY to CI.
When: This A.M. about 05:10.
Where:47th-50th St. Rockefeller Center Mezzanine.
What: Tracings.
So, I'm on my way to the office on Park Ave. and 47th. I get off the "F" train at 47th-50th and use the 48th St exit. This is just rigth so I can stop at the Variety Cafe for my coffee w/skim and a toasted dry bagel.
I,m climbing the stairs from the platform to the mezzanine when I see this average looking dude taping what appears to be brown wrapping paper on the wall. He is using masking tape. The paper is about two ft. wide by 6 ft., maybe 7ft. long.
I put on my semi-fake limp, and slow down. I keep my eye on this guy.
He finishes putting the tape on and starts scribbling back and forth, top to bottom with a soft thick lead pencil. I guess it was one of the types artist use for charcoal drawings.
I stop to retie my shoe.
The tiles underneath are coming through. Its a Mosaic.
I look all around and don't see any others. Its just the little squares.
I'm thinking this guy is nuts. He keeps scribbling.
Then I see it. But it seems like a partial mosaic. It says " 47th-50th St."
I look around again, and this time I spot others.
This Station mezzanine has been re-habed over the years, but only on the mezzanine level near the various exits to the street or buildings.
At one time there were many mosaics but they were painted over with a paint that matches the wall tile color. its easy to miss the mosaic!
So confess! Which one of you was doing the Tracings this A.M.
Avid
This same guy probably has a large collection of MEN and WOMEN mosaics. They're painted over in dozens of IND stations.
or visible at Astor Place...
Does the m.t.a. use the same horn signal blasts as the railroads do or is rapid transit in a diffrent catagory ? what are the horn signals i think one blast is go, two is stop,whats the rest ?....thanks
The NYCTA is not subject to FRA rules.
Peace,
ANDEE
As Andee says: >>The NYCTA is not subject to FRA rules. <<
However, there are some horn signals in use (and people, please correct me if I miss any - and I am sure I will)
1 Long, 1 Short = request for Police assistance
3 Long = Request for Road Car Inspector
2 Long = Warning (usually to personnel working on Roadbed). This is followed by 2 short when the the first horn signal is acknowledged by hand signals from the track crew.
Multiple short (generally 3 or 4 and done more than once) = warning to passengers on platform if train is passing thru w/o stopping.
>>>>>>>1 Long, 1 Short = request for Police assistance
Actually 1 long, 1 short, 1 long, 1 short. The above is to call a Signal Maintainer.
>>>>>>3 Long = Request for Road Car Inspector
3 short instead.
>>>>>>>>>2 Long = Warning (usually to personnel working on Roadbed). This is followed by 2 short when the the first horn signal is acknowledged by hand signals from the track crew.
Correct. Acknowledged by hand or light signals.
>>>>>>>Multiple short (generally 3 or 4 and done more than once) = warning to passengers on platform if train is passing thru w/o stopping.
Old version is above, but is commonly used today.
New version is 2 short entering, and 2 short leaving the bypassed station.
You were 0 for 4. Let me give you the correct signals.
LONG = STOP TRAIN IMMEDIATELY
LONG LONG = SOUNDED WHEN PASSING CAUTION LIGHTS OR FLAGS
LONG LONG SHORT SHORT = TRAIN HAS RUN PAST OR STOPPED SHORT OF PROPER MARK.
SHORT SHORT = ANSWER TO ANY SIGNAL
SHORT SHORT SHORT = REQUEST FOR ROAD CAR INSPECTOR
LONG SHORT = REQUEST FOR SIGNAL MAINTAINER
LONG SHORT LONG SHORT = REQUEST FOR POLICE ASSISTANCE
SHORT SHORT SHORT SHORT = REQUEST FOR PROPER LINE-UP
SERIES OF SHORT BLASTS (MORE THAN 4) = WARNING THAT TRAIN IS PASSING WITHOUT STOPPING OR MAKING AN IRREGULAR MOVE.
SERIES OF SHORT BLASTS (MORE THAN 4) = WARNING THAT TRAIN IS PASSING WITHOUT STOPPING OR MAKING AN IRREGULAR MOVE.
When trains bypass stations on Lex (I'm thinking 6 trains during the morning rush skipping 59th because some a-hole was holding doors at Grand Central or 51st) we get two short blasts as warning--if that. Sometimes there is no warning. That's really annoying.
Dan
They really should make a station announcement when a train that normally stops will be skipping the station. That would be much more helpful than a series of train horns that may or may not be sounded or may just mean get out of the way.
- Lyle Goldman
I once heard an announcement at 86th/CPW that a C approaching at 103rd would be running nonstop to 72nd on the local track and the following B would make all stops.
That station gets really good announcements, and the PA system actually works. On Monday there was a near-error: "There is a Brooklyn -- correction, downtown local approaching 86th Street." (She presumably had no way of knowing if it was a B or a C. Turns out it was a B, so her correction was in order.)
Contrast that to 86th/Broadway, where the typical announcement, when one is made at all, starts out with a loud hum with the S/A's conversation sneaking through. After a few seconds of that, the announcement is made, but it's hard to understand over the hum. Then the hum continues for another minute before being shut off.
from The Boston Herald
The MTA may now sell bonds late this year or early 2002 after originally having plans to hit the market this summer. Blame it on the late state budget. Another interesting bit of news was Gov. Pataki possibly agreeing to use some World Trade Center lease revenue to fund capital projects like the Second Avenue Subway. Of course, the Port Authority is involved so that should be something to watch.
(The MTA may now sell bonds late this year or early 2002 after originally having plans to hit the market this summer. Blame it on the late state budget. Another interesting bit of news was Gov. Pataki possibly agreeing to use some World Trade Center lease revenue to fund capital projects like the Second Avenue Subway. Of course, the Port Authority is involved so that should be something to watch.)
That bond financing, like the Transportation Bond Act, should never take place. There is too much debt already. The City and State should stop under funding transportation, and over funding other priorities, with annual tax dollars. Fares, tolls and fees should keep up with inflation. And our federal "representatives" should stop agreeing to less funding for transportation in exchanged for more funding for housing and health care.
And with gas prices going down, the federal gas tax should be raised to fund more transport spending and encourage conservation (fat chance).
One of the most important factors involved is the role of the investment banks. If memory serves, the financial advisor recommending the sale of the bonds "somehow" is also the lead manager of the issue. Do I hear "conflict of interest"?
(One of the most important factors involved is the role of the investment banks. If memory serves, the financial advisor recommending the sale of the bonds "somehow" is also the lead manager of the issue. Do I hear "conflict of interest"?)
Yes your memory does serve. It made me sick to my stomach. It isn't often that transit advocates, unions, non-profits and business groups join together to denounce something, but all were outraged by that refinancing. And the Vampire State, knowing that its legislatures don't face real elections, went for it anyway.
Here's the perfect example why Second Ave. Subway, Part III will meet the same fate as Parts I and II did in the early 1950s and 1970s. Even if the bond issue is passed, the debt levels will get so high that the MTA will either have to raise fares -- which the politicans will balk at -- or take money out of the bond issue to pay for maintenance and operation of the existing lines, thereby removing the available funds for the Second Ave. construction (of course, if it really gets bad and if the people running the MTA have the collective memory of a fruit fly, they could also start cutting back on preventive maintenance to save cash, which would drop us right back into the late 1970s-early 80s MBDF tarpit again).
Last night, I boarded a northbound #2 R-142 at Fulton Street and immediately realized that there was no A/C in the car.
Wonderful thing, technology.
What's a complaint without a car number?
A missed opportunity. :)
Car numbers
of Rustbirds
W/O A/C would
fill a page or more
Peace,
ANDEE
But the MTA is asking for some 120-point sized type in the Post or News -- NEW TRAINS BURN UP RIDERS -- unless they get the bugs worked out. People grumble, but they can understand no air-conditioning in a 37- to 42-year-old subway car; those things are headed for the scrapper anyway. But when the AC is out in a 37- to 42-day-old subway car, then someone's going to be in trouble if the problem isn't resolved quickly.
Wonderful thing, technology.
And all of the times you've ridden on a non-A/C redbird, you don't complain.
Sorry, but the R-142 is a MACHINE. As anything in the world, it's not perfect and it breaks. It still is more reliable than those horrible red-painted rustbuckets.
Your constant picking on of a machine is just another sign of your insanity. When the last Rustbucket gets carted off into the sea, I guess we can cart you off to Ward's Island.
I must agree with you, the R-142 and R-142a's are still brand new. And the sophisticated software on the cars, I'm quite sure they still have bugs in them. We had similar problems our M-4 cars on the Market-Frankford Line when they first went into service 4yrs. ago. You think going w/o AC is something, I was on M-4 car# 1060 @ 15th St and all the doors in the train opened except for the car I was on. And all of the passengers and I ended up riding to 30th St. But of course now after 4yrs. the M-4's run quite well. The only thing I dont like about the M-4 cars is they have poor spin/slide control. Other than that they're pretty good cars.
See ya,
Ms.SEPTA
spin/slide control? what is that?
I must agree with you, the R-142 and R-142a's are still brand new. And the sophisticated software on the cars, I'm quite sure they still have bugs in them.
That's true, but it isn't even that. The R-142 A/C may be more reliable, but it is not invincible. Especially now with the amount of work an A/C has to perform, one is bound to fail, in any car class.
Not only LAST NIGHT. Yesterday morning there was no A/C in ## 6601 and 6595 cars. Ride was terrible (plus delay @ 14 Street).
it happens. eventually they will come back on during the run. i assume that you haven't ridden them throughout the whole line. also the 2nd one to have this problem, Car 6589 had a noisy a/c. 6307 had it but was taken out of service and fixed. this ones isn't as bad but will be taken out of service (probably is today) to correct the problem. but remember it is new and still needs to get worked out. remember that the redbirds went throught this period whent they first came in. so did every car in the system.
David, let me be the first sub-talker to compliment you on the new website appearance. It was a pleasant surprise when I signed on....
Please also preserve the picture of R36 # 9769 at 45th Road. It was the last WF car delivered.
Thanks! You're the first to say anything. I'm not sure I'm totally done with it yet though...
As mentioned before, the banner pictures are randomly chosen (from a pool of about 45). You can find the full picture of 9769 in the R33/R36 WF car roster pages.
As mentioned before, the banner pictures are randomly chosen (from a pool of about 45).
My computer doesn't load a new banner picture unless I clear my cache. Any ideas off the top of your head on what I could do to see all the pretty pictures?
Dan
Uhh...hehe...disregard that last post. I fixed it. I like the new site design, Dave. Good work!
Dan
There's an article in today's Jersey Journal about the possibility of constructing a light rail line on Washington St in Hoboken using Newark PCCs.
Um, so they didn't want the HBLR on the east side but they'll build a trolley as well? Right.
Maybe the LRVs didn't "look like Hoboken?" ;)
The last day the PCC's are running is my 4 year annavery. I going to try to get to day off from the TA. Maybe my wife would like to come with me to ride one since she never been on them.
Robert
Yeah, that article makes a lot of sense. How about the PCCs being similar to the 'famous trolleys' in San Fran? What 'famous' railcar comes to mind when someone mentions San Fran? It ain't NOTHING like a PCC!
-Hank
Depends on who you talk to. The PCC has a long history in San Francisco and the recent work of the Market St. Rwy. has kept it going to great success... Cable cars are for tourists. The real residents of SF have been riding PCC's for 55 years.
How about the PCCs being similar to the 'famous trolleys' in San Fran?
That leapt out at me, too, as did the mention of "horse-drawn trolleys" and the relationship between "subsurface infrastructure" and "laying down trolley wire." Of course, the Jersey Journal isn't published by the ERA, so you have to expect some butchering of technical items. The important thing here is the politicians are pushing for it (if NJT pays...)
An article in today's (July 26th) New York Times entitled "Auditors Doubt Amtrak Will Meet Profit Goal" is located in section A of the New York City edition. Part of the article quotes Kenneth Mead, Inspector General of the U.S. Department of Transportation, testifying before a House sucommittee yesterday. The Times says "He testified that the new high-speed Acela trains serving Boston, New York and Washington were lightly used and that the number of seats filled was declining on Boston-to-New York runs. He added, though, that this might simply be because the service was new."
My personal suspicion is that the decline is rather caused by the fact that the service simply isn't speed competitive with air shuttles. What are your thoughts on this?
Yeah, maybe but I feel that the fares are a bit pricy. That can play a part in the low ridership as well.
Amtrak will negotiate corporate discounts to get bulk travel. My employer gets 30% off business class Acela Express fares (and we can use the discount to buy personal travel tickets as well).
That's great for businesses, but regular travellers like myself get the shaft.
I'm not spending slightly over twice the price to shave off an hour off the trip.
Fuhgeddaboutit.
AE is currently offering 2-for-the-price-of-1 tickets on weekends. I'm sure there will be more discounts offered later on for leisure travelers, when AMTRAK figures out their slack periods. Airlines have sure figured out how to do this... it's called "yield management," and designed to get the most money possible by filling all the seats, even if it has to practically give away the last few.
Wow. That deal works.
I want to go on an AE train for a leisure ride between New York and Boston and back if time permits and our budget. Unfortunately, Amtrak only offeres one-way fares and not discounted round-trips. : (
I wonder when I will ever get to ride an AE train.
Railfan Pete.
Airlines do it because to run a plane at anything less than full capacity is corporate suicide. It's better to have a seat make $100 in revenue than $0. And when you're talking about aircraft level costs for doing things, every penny you can get in helps.
>>>>>>>AE is currently offering 2-for-the-price-of-1 tickets on weekends.
That's great. But there's a problem. I'm off Tuesday & Wednesday. So much for the discount.
I know that I'm in the vast minority when it comes to days off, but it still would be nice to take advantage of some discounts once in a while.
If ridership stays down despite added service, Amtrak can cut the price.
It's the rest of the improvements which are harder to get done.
Consider the cheaper (but not so cheap) fares and services of Amtrak's NEDirect trains. Regionals and Metroliners only differ about $10-$20 from AE fares, but you can give it a shot. Also, some shuttle trains (i.e. Train #691) may provide you some discount, but it is not guaranteed.
Railfan Pete.
And that the acela regional is like 1/2 the cost to Boston, and a whopping 20 minutes slower. Most people can do the math, and the screaming kids are as annoyingas the cellphones, so it's not like you gain anythig with the Express (even the ride, IMHO, doesn't justify it)
Agreed. It's not a finished product yet. Amtrak needs to get trips consistently down to 3 hours (reliably), then start slicing it from there. That will be a gradual process (it would be nice if there was more money to finish catenary replacement faster).
I hope the service can survive, because if the airlines have a stranglehold on the riding public, we can expect delays and flight cancellations to continue to plague us. By the way, Ron, I wrote the letters to those two elected officials in the hope to get the Second Ave. subway going. Every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single footstep.
Great going!!
I recommend you write to your elected officials (assuming you arein NYC); whenever you write, send Sheldon Silver and Virginia Fields a copy.
And do write to the governor. As a physician, you can make the case that this subway forwards the cause of public health.
I'll keep that in mind. Here's hoping.
Ok, lets do the math.
Two round trips for you and your companion from Boston to New York via Unreserved Coach:
3 hrs. 55 mins. Cost: $262.00
Two round trips for you and your companion from Boston to New York via Acela Express
3 hrs. 30 mins. Cost: $480.00
Would YOU spend an extra $218.00 to save a total of 50 minutes?
Ahh, shades of the Turboliner to Boston from Grand Central 30 years ago. The prices was higher, the view from the observation car was lovely, but the cost didn't justify the minimal time saved over regular passenger service, and the time saved wasn't enough to be competative with the Eastern Airlines shuttle from Logan to LaGuardia (which even in 1970 was a walk-up, get-on service, with a cart with credit card machine pushed down the aisle to take payments after the flight was in the air).
Would YOU spend an extra $218.00 to save a total of 50 minutes?
After my experience riding the Express from Washington to New York, the answer is a resounding YES - not because of the time saved, but because of the significantly higher comfort factor. For one person, one way, it cost more than double ($143 vs. $68) but I'm glad I spent the money.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it has a lot to do with the fact that most of the Acela trains aren't running yet. Five Acela Express round-trips, and a bunch of Acela Regionals (essentially, NEDirects without the change at New Haven) a day between New York and Boston simply isn't going to have the draw that the full schedule of Acelas would.
In short, Acela as it was planned to be really ISN'T up and running yet.
I would agree.
Three problems, actually:
1) Not enough trainsets (as was already posted)
2) High-speed running still not uniform enough; Amtrak needs to do more signal work, and MTA needs to finish their catenary replacement program. Also, another article pointed out that parts of the Connecticut ROW are subject to rockslides.
3) Fares should be evaluated to determine if a downward adjustment is needed. This is the easiest adjustment to make, if it is part of the problem. But when all trainsets are in service, we'll have a better idea of what's really going on.
All of the 20 Acela Exp. trainsets are expected to arrive from Bombardier, Ltd., by the end of 2001.
Can you tell me what kind of signal work Amtrak needs to do? because I haven't heard anything about it, everything seems to work out fine. I don't think signals are a problem.
The MTA catenary-replacement project will take an expected 10 years of work from start to finish. I'm not comfortable with this situation but authorities may do whatever is needed to accomodate and restore above average service on the Northeast Corridor, especially for the Acela Express trains.
Railfan Pete.
The signals in the Connecticut portion of the ROW are not up to high speed operation, at least according to what I've read. Even late night running has seen trains do no more than 90 mph in some places, below even Metroliner speeds.
All major news notes will be posted on the website.
Visit (or type in): www.trains.com, which will direct you to the website.
After the page has loaded, click on the 'NewsWire' button on the top left of the screen. It's a beige color. From there, you have two choices of news articles. One is from today's news and the other is from two days before that. Click on both, and you'll see news from rail companies (freight, NJT, and Amtrak) that service the entire continent of North America.
Read all about it. A few weeks ago, I read an article on this site about the Acela Exp. service and how it is declining in quality and on-time service. As far as I know, I think only 28% of the trains ever made it early or on-time in at Boston South Station, and periodically, the route from Washington to New York was delayed and in mediocre quality.
One big thing that affected the time route, was that Amtrak Authority added too many stops for it to be competitive with airline shuttles, esp. from Boston and New York.
In its normal scheduled run, the Acela Exp. was scheduled to travel non-stop between Washington D.C. and New York (trip time 2hrs. 28 mins.), then from New York to Boston (trip time 3hrs. 15 mins), with top speed of 150 mph somewhere along the route.
Also, the thing is, the century-year old catenary wiring east of New York Penn Station (used by Metro-North and Amtrak) needs repairing and adjusting. It is possible, but experts say it will have to be a 10-year project to replace the catenary wiring.
Now I look at the Amtrak schedules and it states that the Acela Exp. has now become a slow, crawling 'bug', going as slow as the service of the Acela Regional and the Metroliner trains. Even some NorthEast Direct trains can top Acela Exp.'s on-time schedule. !!!
Among the stops that they have added, are (going from Boston to Washington), Boston Back Bay, Rt. 128, Providence, New Haven, Stamford, Newark, Metropark, Trenton, 30th St. station Philadelphia, Wilmington, Baltimore, and BWI Airport Rail Station.
Here it is impossible to reach speeds of 150mph because of the distance between stops and the speed limits to which the Acela Exp. is restricted to.
Because of this, the Acela Exp. is not competitive with airline shuttles anymore, although service has increased since Acela Exp. came into service. Amtrak gained its ridership to some 44,000 passengers and brought in more profit for its revenue service which began in December 11, 2000.
Any questions, feel free to reply or visit www.trains.com for news and www.acela.com for information on Acela service on Amtrak.
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
It is helpful.
Acela Express should be able to keep a 2.5 hour schedule between NY and Wash even with intermediate stops. It isn't the higher top speed as much as it is the fact that it can take curves at 110.
The Metroliner had one non-stop a day which did NY-Wash. in 2.5 hours. You don't need Acela equipment to do that.
Good point. The Metroliner trains, which were invented about 30 years ago, are designed to go 125 mph top speed.
Acela Express trains can curve at speeds of 110mph because it is equipped with Bombardier's exclusive tilting system, which tilts the train on embankments and curves so that riders do not necessarily feel the curve when the train is curving.
By the way, the on-time schedule for a Metroliner train from NYP to Washington D.C. with its normal intermediate stops is 2 hrs. and 59 mins. The earliest train made it 4 mins. early making it 2hrs. and 55 mins. I would rather go with the Metroliner. 'Had better ride 'em fast mates 'cauz the Metroliner will retire pretty soon at the end of 2001. Acela Regionals will be replacing these memorable trains!
May the AE be a start of a bright and busy future!
Railfan Pete.
The following intermediate stops should be eliminated:
BWI Airport rail station
Metropark
BWI is served adequately by NeDirect and is a short MARC ride from DC / Baltimore.
Metropark shouldn't even be a Metroliner stop, it has local platforms and is best served as a commuter station with NeDirects. It is the NJ equivalent to Cornwells Heights, PA.
The following intermediate stops must remain:
Newark - Everything stops at Newark.
30th st Philly - Too major a city to be without direct service.
Baltimore - Same as above.
I don't know anything about the stops north of New Haven, therefore I suspend my opinion.
I guess Amtrak put Iselin NJ (Metropark) on its station list because of ridership demands. How many people get on Amtrak there (compared to NJ Transit and compared to other stations).
If I recall correctly, an occasional Amtrak train also stops at other stations, like New Brunswick. Correct me on this if I'm wrong.
Read all about it. A few weeks ago, I read an article on this site about the Acela Exp. service and how it is declining in quality and on-time service. As far as I know, I think only 28% of the trains ever made it early or on-time in at Boston South Station, and periodically, the route from Washington to New York was delayed and in mediocre quality.
The 28% figure was for a single month. For months prior to that the on-time performance was in the high 80's to 90's %. Periodically trains any place on the NEC are delayed, because it's Amtrak we're talking about. =)
In its normal scheduled run, the Acela Exp. was scheduled to travel non-stop between Washington D.C. and New York (trip time 2hrs. 28 mins.), then from New York to Boston (trip time 3hrs. 15 mins), with top speed of 150 mph somewhere along the route.
All Acela Express trains still hit 150 mph at the same places on the route. There has been no change. The NY-DC non-stop was a temporary media ploy to stir up hype. It worked. Amtrak has had non-stop (or maybe it was 1-stop, at Philly) NY-DC Metroliners in the past and ridership has always been low. One of Amtrak's great strengths is making intermediate stops. People traveling BOS-LGA-DCA have twice-hourly air shuttles, but people at intermediate stations don't have that kind of air service. Much of the ridership on the NEC comes from intermediate stations, and Amtrak is smart to serve those markets.
Also, I don't think Acela Express was ever scheduled for NY to South Station in 3h15 in revenue service. (I might be wrong... but if it did, it was probably also a temporary media ploy.)
Also, the thing is, the century-year old catenary wiring east of New York Penn Station (used by Metro-North and Amtrak) needs repairing and adjusting. It is possible, but experts say it will have to be a 10-year project to replace the catenary wiring.
With funding from CT finally forthcoming, the project has started.
Now I look at the Amtrak schedules and it states that the Acela Exp. has now become a slow, crawling 'bug', going as slow as the service of the Acela Regional and the Metroliner trains. Even some NorthEast Direct trains can top Acela Exp.'s on-time schedule. !!!
Which NortheastDirect/Regional/Metroliner trains do you see that are scheduled to be faster than Acela Express on the same route?
Among the stops that they have added, are (going from Boston to Washington), Boston Back Bay, Rt. 128, Providence, New Haven, Stamford, Newark, Metropark, Trenton, 30th St. station Philadelphia, Wilmington, Baltimore, and BWI Airport Rail Station.
There was never a Boston-NY non-stop. There were always intermediate stops, though not all trains stop at all intermediate stops. And I think the stops south of NY are the same stops Metroliners make.
Here it is impossible to reach speeds of 150mph because of the distance between stops and the speed limits to which the Acela Exp. is restricted to.
Acela Express has always been limited to 135 mph south of NY. More station stops does not prevent it from reaching 135 mph there. Acela Express has always reached 150 mph in parts of RI and MA, even with stops at Providence and Route 128. It still does, with the same stops. Acela Express accelerates well-- the distance between stops is much less of an obstacle to high speeds than things like old catenary, drawbridges, curves, congestion, etc. etc.
Because of this, the Acela Exp. is not competitive with airline shuttles anymore, although service has increased since Acela Exp. came into service.
Competitive defined how? The time performance of Acela Express is such that it always has been, and still is, time competitive with shuttles NY-DC, and not very time competitive with shuttles NY-Boston. Nothing has changed about that, except that there are more round-trips. NY-Boston will not become time competitive until major improvements (like the catenary replacement on Metro-North) are finished.
I have done three and a half round-trips on AE (the last half is in less than an hour, on today's 6pm 2170 NYP-BOS). As a vertean of HUNDREDS of air shuttle flights, I can tell you that AE can be competitive on a number of levels. AMTRAK needs to do a better publicity job aimed at the time-sensitive business traveler, who is set in his/her ways and automatically orders a $400 round-trip air ticket from the travel agent without thinking about the alternative.
I will agree that the current 5 round-trips/day is not enough to allow the business traveler who must be flexible to change trip times easily. Hopefully when 10 round-trips/day is implemented by the end of the year, that objection will disappear.
If I recall correctly, the latest estimates say that the Second Avenue line would cost about $1 billion per mile to construct. A staggering sum, right? Well, to put things into perspective, consider the fact that JDS Uniphase just announced that it lost more than $50 billion in the past year. Somehow the cost of completing the line doesn't look so daunting anymore.
What's the JDS Uniphase?
Peace,
ANDEE
The largest producer of fiber-optic equipment in the world.
What's JDS Uniphase
The largest producer of fiber-optic equipment in the world.
Endlessly touted by shills, er, stock analysts who didn't know what fiber-optic networking really was but thought it sounded real cool. And who certainly didn't have the ability to realize that there was a grotesque oversupply of networking and telecom equipment, thereby not realizing that stock prices of JDS and its ilk were headed for a huge fall. JDS stock sold for almost $150 per share a year ago and is now selling for under $10 (and almost certainly will sink like the Titanic tomorrow).
Transit content (sort of): as has been pointed out by other SubTalkers, I am very cynical about the MTA and its ability to get anything accomplished in a remotely competent manner. However, I fully acknowledge - citing JDS and other tech companies as a prime example - that private industry is every bit as capable of acting incompetently.
While this sounds like a lot of money, it's not real money. JDS's collective net worth had been downsized by $50 billion. All on paper ...
Have you noticed the red octagonal, "street" STOP sign reminding (S) 6th Ave. Shuttle motormen that Broadway-Lafayette is the last stop? It really looks out-of-place on a subway system! Too bad I didn't have my camera with me last evening when I saw it. Perhaps one of our fellow SubTalkers can get a shot of it for posting.
Incredible. Possibly I can check it out for myself.
If the octagonal red 'stop' sign is out of place for the subway system, what other ways can motormen be reminded of that Broadway - Lafayette is the last stop?
The best reason is for motormen to memorize it, but on the flip side they are hard workers toiling all day and night on subway trains operating it from 'wall to wall', if you get the drift.
This is it for now...
Railfan Pete.
There one at 34street for each the B & D train.
Robert
The sign were installed on the night of the flip. I actually talked to two TA employees who were carrying them to the stations for mounting. It was weird seeing them up close.
To compliment it, they need to put a "Dead End" sign at the south portal of Grand Street :-)
Bumper posts would do the trick.
BARF! I guess it isn't any worse than the "know-your-lineup"
color cartoons. Makes one wonder though: take a contemporary
subway train operator and transport him or her back in time
to say 1950 and one of the Brooklyn els. Marker lights,
slow non self-lapping air brakes with no dynamics, no sealed beams,
no PA, no radio and making adds and cuts with Van Dorn couplers,
hoses and MU jumpers.
Oh, and no A/C.
These Know Your Lineup signs are now in the tunnels too. I rode the to Brigton and saw them scattered all over. Is it really THAT hard to remember Green from Yello? :)
Shawn.
> Is it really THAT hard to remember Green from Yello?
I'm sure it's harder than remembering how to spell yellow! (:-)
Seriously, though, I like those "Know Your Lineup" signs. The more help train operators get to avoid going the wrong way and messing up service, the better, don't you think?
- Lyle Goldman
Who knows? Perhaps the next big thing will be installing drool cups on the edge of the control consoles. :)
One often sees these stop signs on SEPTA subways when trackwork is being done.
I *miss* those days. (sniff!) Nobody looked at ya funny when you said the angle cock wouldn't go in. :)
At Van Wyck Blvd, they actually installed a digital sign saying:
"KNOW YOUR LINE UP!! TAKE BOTTOM YELLOW FOR JAMAICA CENTER. TAKE BOTTOM GREEN FOR 179ST. SAFETY! ATTENTIVENESS! TRAIN CONTROL!"
Well, I'm glad somebody brought that up! Everytime I see those "KYL" signs I, too, want to barf. When I knew I was going to be on a new route, I rode it both ways, several times, on my own time! I made notes about the timers, curves, etc. I always tried to be informed and prepared. I didn't expect every single little thing to be spelled out for me. I would have felt like I was being treated like a dummy if it were. 20 years later, times have certainly changed.
Sorry for kicking in here, I'm 30 years out and never cease to be amazed at what the "ta" has become since ... back in my day, if you didn't kill somebody, it was a GOOD day. Heh.
Then again, 1970-71 was a time when if it rolled at all, it got into the consist and if it was missing parts, they'd hide it at 2 car or 9 car ... their attitude then was if you didn't quit, you could deal with it. Whatever it was ... and you'd BETTER know your lineups or explain it to the TMO. Now I hear, the TMO is dead, and is now a non TWU position. Then again, WD's and timers galore, seems as though they're planning on hiring J Fred Muggs soon.
If you've got 20 on you, then you remember what was left of the good old days when if you got a set of handles or a church key, you must ACTUALLY know what you're doing. Damned shame from my own perspective. Just wanted to let you know you're not alone in feeling that way.
I knew you would understand...
I spent 7 months in the yards before I got a sniff of the road. Believe me, that was a 4 credit course by itself. How many times did I go to prepare a train for service or just move it into the shop, that the brakes were stuck, straight air doesn't drop to zero in release, train wouldn't charge, train 'dead and dark' (!). I was lucky that I made friends with a Trainmaster and a few other "hooks" and they took a liking to me. It helped, of course, that I was eager, respectful, and I knew what I was doing. Because of all that, I was able to do some cool things for a rookie, including, operate R1-9s on a work train a few times. By 1982, they were long off the road, and I remembered them as a kid, so that was a thrill for me. Evern though they were taxicab yellow, I still dug them. Good memories...
Yeah, that was pretty much how well they worked on the road. But still, I loved those old things. Dumb as a bag of bowling balls, if you knew how to kiss them or kick them just right, they'd do your bidding ... USUALLY ... and every station you stopped at, you knew that YOU were the reason WHY they stopped. And those babies TALKED to you too if you knew how to listen.
I got some chool car time on the 42's ... HATED them ... two fisted operation is the only way to run a train ... eye-hand coordination and FEELING your train ... I was lucky in that respect too ... many with months left on the job actually like this 19 year old and the attitude of "these things are sweeties" ... most of the newcomers in my days wouldn't hear of running the "old wrecks" ... I savored EVERY moment in a cab, either in the middle or up front ... but alas, one of my sweeties screwed me and since I was a probie, no hose work for me. I was out. But I enjoyed every delicious moment on the railroad, and then got me a REAL job. Heh.
Look at it this way ... the storm door is nice and all, but it just can't beat the view of a rail under your eyeball. :)
Yeah, but simple is better, I think. Look at those rolling Pepsi cans they have on the IRT now. Computer screens (!) and all, they can have 'em. The more complicated they are, the more that can go wrong with 'em. Those "old wrecks" would (and one or two still are) be running today with a little TLC. Let's see how the newfangled stuff fares in the coming years (even with the regular maintenance the rolling stock gets these days).
I'm glad you savored every moment, most people aren't wise enough to do that, and don't realize how much they liked something till it's gone.
I'm just about to return to Boston from a two-day trip to NYC. I picked up five extra post-flip maps. If there are any out-of-town SubTalkers who would like one:
Do not reply to this message
This is for out-of-town SubTalkers only, limited to residents of the 50 United States who can't get to NYC but would like one
Email me privately at todd@nycsubway.org
I'll send you my address; you send me a self-addressed, stamped ($0.77) business-size (#10) envelope, and I'll send the map to you.
This is for the first five responses only; one per customer!
A service of Transit and Weather Together
While Ed Koch was mayor he took away the extra fare charged to subway riders in the Rockaways. Does anyone remember how this extra fare was charged?
Did turnstiles lock in both directions unless you put a token in? Were token booths set up so people on both sides of the turnstiles could buy tokens? Were people arrested for turnstile jumping when exiting?
Craig
^
I remember the turnstiles, there is one at the transit museum, a coin was indeed needed in either direction. Maybe the token booth straddled the fare sone or maybe not. Maybe you just had to plan ahead.
The turnstile in the muesum required a dime to enter and a nickle to exit, but when I was a kid you needed a token to exit, so you just made sure you had one. I guess you needed two tokens to enter, but I dont remember that. (Kids riding on the subways simply did not get off there.
Elias
The turnstile in the musuum required a dime to enter and a nickle to exit
That wouldn't have been used in the Rockaways. The token fare was 15c when the Rockaway Line opened in 1956. You paid two tokens to enter, one token to leave.
That turnstile might have been used at one of the Coney Island terminals before the BRT was forced to lower the Coney Island fare to 5c. That's assuming they were using turnstiles at C.I. then.
As it was eliminated in 1975, it would have been mayor Abraham Beame.
Did turnstiles lock in both directions unless you put a token in?
Yes, two tokens to enter, one to exit.
Were token booths set up so people on both sides of the turnstiles could buy tokens?
One booth facing both sides.
Were people arrested for turnstile jumping when exiting?
I don't think anybody was arrested for fare evasion back then.
I guess your right about people not getting arrested for fare evasion back then, fare beating only became a felony under Adolf Guiliani. Back then I would guess cops had more to do than hid in subway stations looking for some kid or homeless person to jump a turnstile. I'm surprised any one survived those dangerous criminals going unpunished.
The rationale for arresting fare beaters, AFAIK, is to check for outstanding warrants. Falls under the quality of life thing. As to what the end result is vs. the number of people caught I haven't got a clue.
Fare beating wasn't a national pastime (NY Division) back then.
Fare beating proceeded like a lot of unpunished petty crime. A few rare kids would do it sleathily, then more openly and it would spread to young adults, and eventually it became treated as a virtual entitlement.
The attitude was helped along by displays of intentional turnstile jumping by activists when fares were increased.
I belive that St George & Ballpark Stations on the SIRT require fare payment on entrance and exit.
Yes, you're right. To both enter and exit at St. George/S.I. Ferry Terminal you must swipe your Metrocard...although if you took a bus or subway to get to the SIR from the Manhattan side or a bus to get to the SIR from the Staten Island side, you get charged nothing. You still have one free transfer still available to you.
If you work in Midtown and live some distance from the nearest SIR station, you could take a subway from your office to South Ferry, ride the ferry, ride the SIR and then take a bus home from your nearest SIR station, and that would all be covered under one fare.
Also, if you use the SIR at all stations other than St. George and the new baseball stadium, the ride is totally free. You need no Metrocard or POP anywhere else on the system.
Craig
*
If you work in Midtown and live some distance from the nearest SIR station, you could take a subway from your office to South Ferry, ride the ferry, ride the SIR and then take a bus home from your nearest SIR station, and that would all be covered under one fare.
You could skip a step and ride the bus directly to the ferry.
That takes longer.
I wonder if it's possible to "loop" with the metrocard transfers. I think the S79 and S53 are routes with double transfer priviliges, is it possible to take the subway, to one of these, get a second transfer and use it on SIR, get another transfer and end up back in the subway?
But after transferring from the subway to the S53 or S79, there is no longer a transfer to antyhing else, except for the S60 from the S53.
Mayor beam removed the double fare from the rockaways. There were two sets of turnstiles. You put two tikens to get on and one token to get off. The token booth had two sides.
The token booths in the rockaways have windows on both sides of the fare zone (the one on the inside says "closed" all the time). Are they the same booths as back then?
Yes, those are the same booths.
Peace,
ANDEE
Abe Beame was mayor, and he didn't do it - the Transit Authority did. It was 1975.
David
To ride to/from the Rockaways way back when (before a lot of SubTalkers were born!!) you would use one token to board in the rets of the city, and then use another token to exit.
When boarding in the Rockaways, you put in two tokens, as when you got to rest of the world, there was no turnstile to exit.
The real kicker was if you were riding locally in the Rockaways. As I remember, you had to tell the station agent you were doing so and they issued a Rockaway boarding receipt, and when you exited, you got a refund of one token. In other words, to ride locally in the Rockaways you paind just ONE token.
That wasn't done much, Green Bus Lines ran routes downstairs on the street.....
PATH, or maybe it was still the H&M, had such an arrangement when their fare was .30 and the NYC subway was .15. If you traveled within the limits of five stations, the four in Jersey City + Hoboken, you could get a refund by presenting some sort of receipt.
At Journal Square, it was presented at the Pennsylvania Railroad ticket office. Hard to imagine there was once enough demand for such an outlet.
The arrangement that I remember in the H&M days was as follows. You bought a ticket for 40 cents, if you were going to Newark instead of a 30 cent token. There was a special manned turnstile, for Newark customers. Patrons with tickets were allowed through this turnstile. I don't remember if the ticket was punched or not. This ticket was collected on the train between Jersey City and Newark by the conductor. As I remember, one of the first things that the PA did when it took over operation was to reduce the extra fare to Newark.
they did punch the ticket. sometimes in off hours the token/ticket seller would punch the ticket and release the gate
The new layout for this website (www.nycsubway.org) is fantastic! Great job Dave!!
Eric D. Smith
Hey Dave!
The new layout is excellent! Keep up the good work!
I'm hoping they let us ride the Hudson-Bergen line free again at the
Try Transit Festival in sept. Have you heard anything???
Chuck Greene
Thanks but it's not like radically different :) I just wanted some space at the top to make announcements. ("New & Noteworthy")
-Dave
I agree with this post.
I agree with this post.
I agree with those who agree with those who agree.
I work for an Australian engineering consultancy which is currently compiling a list of the ten deepest underground railway/subway stations in the world. I thought this would be relatively easy to determine, but it's proving more difficult than I thought.
I've managed to determine from the web that the Washington Park MAX Station is the deepest transit station in North America, but definitive details of other stations and rankings are difficult to track down.
Can anyone help?
The deepest stations on the NYC subway system are the Roosevelt Island station on the S train (soon to be the F train), the 181 and 191 St. stops on the No. 1 line in Manhattan, and the 181st and 190th on the A in Manhattan. The 168th St. stop on the No. 1 and Clark St. in Brooklyn on the 2/3 also are fairly deep, but no station in NYC comes close to the depths of some of the Red Line stations north of Silver Spring down in Washington.
You're right. I recommend you look at Wheaton and Glenmont Stations on the Washington Metrorail. WMATA can supply statistics.
The Forest Hill (Laguna Honda Blvd.) Station on the San Francisco Muni is very deep. I've climbed the stairs a few times, it's somewhere between six and eight stories below street level.
It also appears in the movie "Dirty Harry". Clint Eastwood boards a PCC there after getting instructions from "Scorpio."
George Devine
San Francisco, CA
That's a great scene. Calahan all out of breath, trying desperately to beat Scorpio at his own game...
The very deepest in NYC, IINM, is 191st on the 1/9.
Forest Glen is even deeper. It is the only station in DC accessible by elevator only.
I have a feeling that the London underground would have the deepest in the world. I searched and found several sites that say the deepest point on the Tube is on the Northern line, below Hampstead Heath is 220 ft underground. Maybe there are others deeper elsewhere, but that is surely one of the deepest.
The deepest station in St Peterburg, Russia is somewhere around 300 ft below ground.
Arti
Are they saying "Q local" and "Q express" or "circle Q" and "diamond Q"? I've only been on one Q since the swap {an express} and the conductor just said "Q train to. . ." Has there been an offical layout planned for the announcements?
The canned platform announcements at DeKalb specity the "Q CIRCLE" and "Q DIAMOND." I'd rather heard "Diamond Q/Brighton Express" and "Q/Brighton Local."
Conductors are saying Q Express while in manhattan, and they say Q local and Q express while in Brooklyn. Only the station announcements say circle or diamond.
My conductor this morning at Newkirk/Church said transfer to the Q, no express local or diamond circle.
I think that was stupid.
Also had a C/R say at 14th St. 42nd Street next and then complain as people were jumping off and on and holding the doors as she continued to say "42nd St. next". People asked me where to get the D..Uhh...
Oops. What about 34th St?
My on the R this am announced transfers to the Q1 and Q2.
They should just do what they do on the uptown '6': Say "Parkchester local"/Local to Parkchester" or "Pelham Bay express/Express to Pelham Bay." People generally seem to understand, even if they're getting on in Midtown, that the 'express' designation doesn't take hold until the train reaches the Bronx.
Of course, this service pattern has been in place since, what, 1920?
Therefore, if they just say "'Q' local to Coney Island, all stops in Brooklyn", or "'Q' express to Brighton Beach", that should be sufficient- at least for passengers with reasonable intelligence.
I am just loving the increased service on Broadway. This is the way it SHOULD be. I caught a 7X today to Queensboro plaza (the C/R said transfer to the N and Q, hopefully over time they will get used to it). After a few minutes a W pulls in. The Bway express was fast, the R68A was zooming past the stations. Man this is so nice. No more waiting for just a NEVER and RARELY. And after walking through Chinatown I realized that with middway M service I could do something I never had, gone through the Nassau street-Montague connector. So I walked on over to the Bowery station, it's about 5 minutes from Grand (which was empty, the street and the station). It doesn't seem like the Bowery is getting anymore traffic. It was my first time in the station, which is nicely designed in classic BMT style but the closed entrances seem abit spooky. I was the ONLY one on the platform. I didn't have to wait long for a Brooklyn bound M.
I got on the R42 train, and we zoomed through the following curve to Canal street. It was a cool ride, the R42 have great take-off. After slow timers before Broad street, the tunnel loomed. It appears after the Broad street station the tunnel turns sharply to the left and is a tube, and the merge of the Nassau st tracks with the Montague appears to be under the river at that point. If it wasn't for the R in front of us the tunnel would've been faster. I know alot of people bash the Montague st tunnel but it sure beats those stinky Steinway tubes. I took a Q express for a nice Slant R40 ride across the bridge to Manhattan, got a bite at Union Square and then a W to the 7 at Queensboro plaza. The W shaves a good 10 minutes off my travel time. It runs way more often than the N, plus it's express south of 34th, and the 60th street tunnel is fast. It was so nice not having to go through those dirty old Steinway tubes on the 7, since it doesn't really pay anymore to take the 7 at Times Square. I did stay on the W all the way to Ditmars for the Astoria express. Good run, the R68A's did well. If it wasn't for those timers right before Astoria Blvd we would've been flying. I stayed on the W at Ditmars for a quick reversal and local back to QBP.
While waiting for a 7X to Flushing I saw that the ratio between N/W and 7 is nearly the same now, they seem to come equally often. This is great! It's just too bad the W don't run on weekends (in Queens and Manhattan). Broadway rules. The BMT is back! And I can get to Chinatown, the 7 train, and Union Square very easily. Union Square is much better than Herald Square IMHO!I'm growing very fond of that W train. :-)
"Broadway rules. The BMT is back!"
Yup.... When I was I kid I thought that the BMT was the best too! : )
Elias
7X??
An express bus to staten island?
7X?? An express bus to staten island?
No, 7X is the little-known Queens County route designation for Roosevelt Avenue :).
The time is coming, and the grim reaper of subway cars are breathing down the neck of the Redbirds. Some of us, like this, some of us dont. I personally, am very depressed. But, when you think about it, these cars are very old, and many share of people have had there chance to ride them, so i guess we all have to say goodbye. Even me. 40 years of glory.....
And for any of you who wish for the grim reaper of subway cars visits the R-40's, your not alone. Ill cheer for that!
Fortunately, the 'grim reaper' that you are talking about will not touch or go near the R32's and R38's for some time also.
I've seen the retirement plan for these trains, but I guess the T/A cancelled the proposal. I like the R32's and 38's especially. Even if they're 40 years old, everyone knows that they're in decent enough shape to be in service as long as the R62A's are going to be in service. The exterior and interior quality look the same, although some R32's need some repair with the brakes. They squeak too much, and they're LOUD.
Long live the R32's and R38's. I guess these are the only two car-types which are in above average condition and can be run for up to 60 years max on the subway system. Come to think of it, the R32's and R38's do not look old AT ALL to a degree, especially they're replacing the floorboards of the R32's at Jamaica Yard with navy blue with tiny white speckles.
Railfan Pete.
The R38s aren't as well built as the R32s. I don't believe that the R38s have stainless steel frames like the R32s have. They'll be gone before the phat R32s.
MUCH earlier. I believe the R-38s are next on the hit list.
R-32s will stay around for a while, but the R-38/40/42s (and the R-44 bands, for that matter) all have sections that are not stainless steel and are prone to corrosion. That's why some or all of those three series of cars are exepcted to be the next ones out the door when the R-160s show up.
LIRR operators often say, "We have a restricting."
What's a restricting, and can anyone offer translations of other LIRR jargon (which escapes me at present)
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Restricting" is the name of a signal. Based on my 1982 LIRR rule book it looks like (in yellow lights)
. . .
.
.
.
Restricted speed is a speed not exceeding 15 mph being able to stop within 1/2 of the range of vision looking out for obstructions, broken rail, switch not lined properly, etc.
The train was probably making a reverse move with the conductor on the rear calling out the signals to the engineer at the other end.
You'll have to help me with other LIRR jargon. I left NY 28 years ago. LIRR jargon is probably the same as any other railroad.
Michael
The lights in the above message are formatted differently than the way I type them. The top row is horizontal. The bottom row is a left diagonal. Something happened in the transmission.
Michael
Rule 290, Restricting. Train is restricted to 15 w/i interlocking limits, 20 outside. Able to stop short of train or obstruction and looking out for broken rail. Train must remain at restricted speed until entire movement recieves a better indication or passes into DCS territory.
On a PRR dwarf it is \. On a high signal it is -- over \. On a colour light signal it is R/Y or R/R/Y or anything w/ red over Lunar White.
"On a PRR dwarf it is .. or anything w/ red over Lunar White."
Not exactly. That signal is Stop and Proceed. The train must come to a complete stop and then proceed at restricted speed. A restricted signal can be passed without stopping.
Michael
I said on a Colour light signals R/LW, R/R/LW or LW is Restricting. Not PRR signals.
can anyone offer translations of other LIRR jargon
"Go to Channel 4" means they want to discuss something that they don't want the passengers to hear.
can anyone offer translations of other LIRR jargon
"Go to Channel 4" means they want to discuss something that they don't want the passengers to hear.
I generally sit near the end of the cars, so I sometimes can hear the Channel 4 discussions from a conductor's booth. Most often it's just the crew members discussing their next assignments after they reach the last stop.
>>>>"Go to Channel 4" means they want to discuss something that they don't want the passengers to hear. <<<
On the LIRR you don't want to hear 'Go to channel 4 please."
On the subway, you don't want to hear,
"Good evening ladies and gentlemen!"
www.forgotten-ny.com
Restricting signal (Zone C). Proceed at restricted speed.
Restricting signal (Zone A). Proceed at restricted speed until entire train passes a signal displaying a more favorable aspect or entered non- signalled DCS territory.
Restricted Speed - A speed not exceeding 15 miles per hour at which a train can be stopped within one-half the range of vision, short of the next signal, another train, obstruction or switch improperly lined, looking out for broken rail or crossing protection not functioning.
LIRR Rules of the Operating Department 6/18/2001
We have a restricting on "the hanger"
Some signals cannot be seen by the engineer on some platform locations at Penn. The conductor or asssitant conductor will give the aspect to the engineer. That is why we must get 100% on our signal tests (siganl qualilfied)in training (Conductor and Assistant Conductor).
Well, tomorrow I'm up bright and early. I want to ride some of the new services. I've done the South Side and that walkway looks VERY tempting. I'm going to try and hit it tomorrow. I'll have pics. My unlimited ride monthly card is twitching in my wallet.
Goodnight. :)
Tonight, (actually yesterday, since it was Friday), I saw an AirTrain car being delivered.
I was crossing the Goethals Bridge, leaving NJ, and parked on the shoulder was a flatbed truck with what at first I thought might be a PATH car getting junked (as it was leaving NJ)- passing it while driving, it seemd about the right lenght of a PATH car and all.
But when I got close, there were the markings- "AirTrain". I couldn't believe it. It was a thrill!! Personally, I think the AirTrain is a big waste (they shoulda simply extended the A train), but it was still especially a thril as I completely didn't expect it. I just spent 10 days in upstate NY on business, and this was quite a welcome home.
But when I got close, there were the markings- "AirTrain". I couldn't believe it. It was a thrill!! Personally, I think the AirTrain is a big waste (they shoulda simply extended the A train), but it was still especially a thril as I completely didn't expect it. I just spent 10 days in upstate NY on business, and this was quite a welcome home.
Where are they being built?
IN CANADA!
A naive question from a foreigner: did the recent route changes involve any significant construction of new track/tunnelling, or did it mainly involve the use of existing trackage. I assume it's the latter, but I would be interested in confirmation or enlightenment.
Thanks
No new tunneling was made, but the trackbed on the Manhattan end was completely redone and the station at Canal st was rehabilitated.
Not one iota of new construction will be seen in the NY subway until late 2004 when the 2nd avenue starts being built.
Thanks for the info; regards
IF the 2nd Av starts to get built.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Supposedly, there is a never-used tunnel beyond the north end of the Canal St. bridge station. It was started before plans were revised to route the bridge tracks up Broadway.
And the beginning of it is plainly visible from the railfanning window (is it the fanrailing window if one is looking out the back of the train? [g]) on the R40s.
The wall on the Brooklyn-bound side of the tunnel doesn't make the turn with the tracks, but instead continues straight as an arrow along Canal St. for a short distance, and there is ramp up to a door in what appears to be the sealed-over entrance. My very first thought when I saw it was that they must have started tunneling across Canal St before they decided to re-route the bridge tracks as the B'way Express. At least now I know I wasn't crazy.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Just look west (am I allowed to use that word?) from the west end of the platform and you'll see it.
>>>(is it the fanrailing window if one is looking out the back of the train? [g]) <<<
No, it's the "naflair wodniw"
Peace,
ANDEE
More likely in 2008, if the city gets the 2012 Olympics and builds a stadium next to the Javits Center then we'll see new construction, with the No. 7 extension from Times Square to 34th St.-11th Ave.
Maybe.
Well, the Manhattan Bridge flip is now past. I'm not sure if this is the long-term permanent fix that the authorities hope it will be (how much $$ was spent on the MB "repair"?) but there seems to be some underlying "unfixable" component, as I see it.
Many years ago, the Brighton, Sea Beach and West End expresses all ran over the bridge weekdays and weekend days (and nights?). When the bridge problems first became known (as far as I recollect, in the 1950's), diversions through the Montague tunnel and line cut-backs, as on the West End Express becoming a tunnel/Nassau route) or being truncated, began. Maybe I've got it wrong but if the W/West End can't make it over the bridge on weekends, is something still wrong? Now I've read about the need to balance the bridge trains on each side - after the "repair". D and B on the northside and Q and N on the southside on weekdays. D on the northside and N on the southside on weekends.
W riders get screwed and the bridge still seems to have a problem.
Maybe the Brooklyn-bound bridge tracks should be outfitted with connections to the IND F line Rutgers tunnel? That would provide a sure connection. Maybe the W could go that way on weekends. IF more people take the West End than the N Sea Beach, why is the W truncated on weekends? Something seems wrong.
Mike Rothenberg
There is no need to perfectly balance the bridge 24/7 despite the tone of that thread. So long as during the majority of the time (weekdays) everything is near equal, everything's fine. The bridge just went 10 years with service all on one side, I don't understand why people think that having 2 out of every 7 days with unbalanced service is such a big deal...
That said: The W does not go to Manhattan on weekends simply because they may have G.O.s that will cause all broadway lines to use one track, such as:
Bridge closed, Q via tunnel.
Tunnel closed, one direction N/R via bridge.
Broadway local closed, one direction via Broadway express.
The W would end up being truncated anyway, this avoids confusion when that does happen. And I guarantee, By September at least one of the above will have happened.
If both sides of the bridge go down, the system is going to be screwed royally. The bridge is approaching 100 years old, and how much longer does it have?
They should consider the connection to the Rutgers Street tunnels immediately.
Also some years ago, there was talk of connecting the unused express tracks of the F with the D through Prospect Park. This should also be considered.
Rutgers street tunnels? I am not familiar with those. Tell us more about them.
Rutgers street tunnels? I am not familiar with those. Tell us more about them.
The tunnel under the East River used by the F train.
It where the F runs. Passes under the bridge tracks between the bridge and (if memory serves) York (on the F) and DeKalb. And it really isn't a long-term solution (as it is) either, as (AFAIK)it's only a 2-track tunnel. Not enough capacity for the 4 or perhaps 5 lines that would be trying to squeeze through it. Seems to me it would need to be upgraded to a 4-track tunnel -- at minimum -- to accommodate the increase traffic.
Still, any kind of connection to it would be nice.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I would like to see a new tunnel built under the East River to replace the subway tracks on the bridge. Somehow, those in charge just look for the quick fix. Somehow it looks to me like less money spent now means more money to be spent later.
A tunnel might be a great idea. In fact, I'd love to see a 4 track tunnel replace the bridge. Having said that, let's just keep things in perspective. While the repairs to the Manhattan Bridge may be a huge financial burden to the MTA, it is not related to the actual repair of the bridge. The costs of the repairs are the responsibility of the DOT and other state and federal agencies.
True. However, I would not rely on those agencies to keep the bridge in good repair. A tunnel with a four track capacity would give the MTA independence from them, and allow the MTA to provide service whatever the State DOT needs to do with the bridges.
...and allow the MTA to provide service whatever the State DOT needs to do with the bridges.
City DOT, actually
I agree 100%. Just think how much faster service on all 4 bridge lines would be without the climbing and speed restrictions the bridge puts on train service. Also, a station further up Flatbush Ave. towards Manhattan could be built to give the newly thriving DUMBO area improved rail access.
A connection to DeKalb should be considered way before the connection to Prospect Park. The TA has gone so much as to draw their diagrams for the DeKalb-Rutgers connnection so if it doesn't go, nothing goes. However, what I'd suggest is a connection from the bridge tracks from DeKalb before they go on the bridge to High St on the A/C. I haven't put much thought into this, so I figure something's wrong, whether you aren't deep enough to go through or whether you'll run into the fifth basement of a big building, but tell me what you think?
Connecting from DeKalb to the Cranberry Street A/C/ tunnel creates a capacity problem that the Rutgers tunnel doesn't have. With both the Eighth Ave./Fulton local and express in the Cranberry tunnel between High St. and B'way-Nassau, there's little spare capacity during rush hours to stick in a third line without cutting the number of trains per hour on one or all of the lines. On the other hand, Rutgers only handles the F train, so theoretically, the number of additional TPH could be equal to the number of E trains sharing trackage with the F right now in Queens, since that line is at capacity.
The problem with that, however, is what to do between West Fourth St. and Second Ave. when the V train shows up. Switching the B or D train over to the Rutgers tunnel would put three different lines on the outer tracks at B'way-Lafayette under the current set-up, so either the V would have to go someplace else -- say down to the WTC with the E while the C switches over to the express tracks before West Fourth, or the number of TPH on the F, V and either the B or D lines would have to be decreased during rush hour if the V was sent to Second Ave. or further on, like to Church St. on the Culver.
You would probably have to build a number of flyovers/unders similiar to what is at West 4th Street to keep the traffic moving.
I just remembered. Aren't there plans to extend the V all the way down to Church Ave. on the F? That would use up whatever excess capacity going through these tunnels.
Look, they are going to have to do something...........
If the ideal situation is no more than two lines sharing a single track, and if the MTA wants to limit useage of the Manny B, they can do it by building the Rutgers St. connection for the B or D, and then running the V through the switch south of West Fourth from the lower level onto the Eighth Ave. local tracks to terminate at WTC with the E (which shared the WTC terminus for years with the AA or K trains). And the Manny B service would be balanced -- D train (or B train) only on the Sixth Ave. tracks and Q train only on the Broadway tracks.
If the B uses Rutgers and switches back to the Sixth Ave. express tracks between W. Fourth and B'way-Lafayette and the V switches from the Sixth Ave. to the Eighth Ave. local tracks, the only problem would be getting the C train off the Eighth Ave. local tracks and onto the express tracks north of West Fourth. According to Peter Daugherty's track map, the next switch north of there is south of Penn Station, so the only stations that would lose service would be Eighth Ave.-23rd St. (E train only) and Grand Street (D train only), while the F line between Second Ave. and York St. would gain a second service with the B train.
(The problem with that, however, is what to do between West Fourth St. and Second Ave. when the V train shows up.)
Just make the V train one of the services in Brooklyn, ie. the Brighton Local.
That's basically what would happen. All of the Rutgers service plans called for the connection to be served only by the "Q", which at that time, was what was assumed to be the 6th Av-63rd St line. Of course, now, with the Q thankfully fixed back on Broadway, and the V soon to be established, that's what would use the connection: the V to Brighton. Of course, then the Culver would never get it's Church Ave. express. The DeKalb service would of course take precedence.
So what would happen to the D train if the V becomes the new Brighton local?
Under these plans, the B & D would terminate at 34th, and there would be the other D in Brooklyn (which would now be called the Q) which would go via tunnel and Bway exp. to 57th. West End would remain a shuttle.
Assuming the N ever gets back on the bridge, I suppose that's possible if you eliminate the Q train completely. But then you get back into the unbalanced Manny B traffic problem again if the B and D run on the Sixth Ave. tracks and only the N runs on the Broadway tracks.
Again, that balanced load thing is not a factor. Why do people think it is?
The steel braces installed on the bridge reduce twisting to the point where balancing should no longer be an issue. However, the next three years will serve as a test of that. Subway trains are now travelling on the braced south side; the north side will receive braces. At the end of three years, we'll see how well the repairs held up. If the bridge performs as hoped for, then full 4-track subway service can begin without regard to how many trains use each side.
Why do we have to eliminate the Q, please explain?
Well, because if the V is routed through a new Rutgers connection to DeKalb and becomes the Brighton Local, you would have the following lineup:
B -- West End express via Sixth Ave./bridge
D -- Brighton express via Sixth Ave./bridge
N -- Sea Beach express via Broadway/bridge
M -- West End local via Nassau St./Montague tunnel
R -- Fourth Ave. local via Broadway/Montague tunnel
V -- Brighton local via Sixth Ave./Rutgers tunnel
You still have bridge space for the Q and space on Broadway for the Q, but unless the M train south of Broad Street is abandoned, there's no place for the Q to go south of DeKalb unless you cut back the number of TPH for the D and V on the Brighton, and that would affect service for passengers in Queens and the Bronx.
The Q on Brighton exp would help.
Help who? If the combined V and D lines run at about 12-15 trains per hour during rush hours on the Brighton, that leaves little or no space for the Q. Add the Q to the Brighton route and you cut D train service for the Concourse line and V train local service on Queens Blvd.
Six different lines running through DeKalb under current conditions is really all the station can support -- two Fourth Ave. express lines (B/N), two Fourth Ave. local lines (M/R) and two lines through the Brighton tunnel (V/D -- that sounds awful, doesn't it?). The only one that can really be axed would be the M through Nassau Street, and I suppose the Q could be kept on the Brighton line and the V could run West End to Bay Parkway, but that would put two Sixth Ave. lines on the West End, which would be a little redundant.
The Rutgers plan for bridge fully open called for the M moved to 95th or CI via Brighton local (with the D); the 63rd St-Rutgers (called "Q") as the express to Brighton Beach, and the extra space on the H tracks was to be used by a "T" on the West End with the B (replacing M) to 57th. (this would probably be "W" now)
What we could do now that the V will be established, and the Q stay on Broadway, is make the V the West End extra service. Or maybe something different like 95th. But of course, all this is wishful thinking, as Rutgers seems to have become another bright idea fallen to the wayside.
And don't forget being track capacity is 30tph that the F will have 15tph, half.
>>>The problem with that, however, is what to do between West Fourth St. and Second Ave. when the V train shows up. Switching the B or D train over to the Rutgers tunnel would put three different lines on the outer tracks at B'way-Lafayette under the current set-up, so either the V would have to go someplace else -- say down to the WTC with the E while the C switches over to the express tracks before West Fourth, or the number of TPH on the F, V and either the B or D lines would have to be decreased during rush hour if the V was sent to Second Ave. or further on, like to Church St. on the Culver.<<<
Sending the V to the WTC could work with either the B or the D being rerouted to the Rutgers tunnel. Then whichever line gets routed into the tunnel would not have to be decreased.
"They should consider the connection to the Rutgers Street tunnels immediately" they should consider new tunnels immediately
The Rutgers/Dekalb connection is not a long term answer. Southern division BMT lines would only have access to about half the total capacity, much less than the current one-side only Manhattan Bridge capacity (30 TPH), which is barely adequate anyway.
The only long term solution: 4 new tubes to replace all 4 tracks on the current bridge, or a compromise plan moving the 6th Ave tracks to a tunnel, with the Broadway tracks remaining on the bridge using the current middle roadway.
This should've been started 15 years ago, but the city continues to pour funds into that huge suspended money pit ...
Let's think about this a little bit. If the bridge can handle two tracks, everything could be OK.
The way the bridge is configured now is pretty close to how it was pre-Chrystie Street, except for the Nassau Street loop. I've read from a few posts here that this was really underutilized with maybe a few Bankers Specials. I'm not really sure what this service looked like.
The service today that most closely duplicates service over the south side of the bridge in the original configeration is today's M, except it doesn't use the old loop. You have been posting here that midday service is a waste of money and is underutilized. Riders are taking the Q or W to Canal and changing for Nassau service there to get where they have to go.
Even if the loop was intact and the M could cross the bridge, it would not stop at Canal.
There has been 30 TPH over the bridge for over a decade now with one side open and the other closed, and we have survived.
A four track tunnel will never happen, even though it is sorely needed. We may be able to get another 10 TPH though Rutgers at best.
As long as the bridge can handle traffic, don't expect any changes.
The current 30 TPH over the bridge is barely adequate. It's not a real long term solution. 4 tracks must operate or service can never expand to meet current and future increases in ridership. We haven't "done OK" in the past 15 years with only 50% of the bridge operating. We've suffered because we have had no choice. Brighton service alone needs a significant service increase during rush hours right now.
The powers that are in control at present will not build the tunnels to replace the bridge tracks until they get hit in the head with some major disaster that necessitates closure of the bridge. This is how the city works,unfortunately. Four tunnels would provide good service without the current headaches - provided that they are designed with some overlapping in mind, in case of an emergency ( derailment, emergency line closure, stalled train, you name it ).
I will be patient, but the wait can be annoying at times.
Tunnels would also allow new services, like an extension of the Chrystie St. line south to a new station at Chatham Sq, running to Dekalb Ave in a tunnel south of the Brooklyn Bridge, or even having Broadway express trains running to the lower level at City Hall before turning towards Dekalb Ave in Bklyn.
Yes, but from what I read in another posting in SUBTALK, plans for those tunnels will not be made, due to some changes in the area around the Manhattan Bridge on the Brooklyn side. We can always dream, but reality must be dealt with, like it or not.
...and they've passed the point of no return.
Here's one editorial and another editorial calling for better transit in Baltimore. It seems that the rail accident and subsequent traffic disruption has people there thinking about the need for a better mass transit system. Think anything will come from sentiments like these? I'd especially like to hear what any Baltimore residents think.
Mark
I doubt anything will come of it soon. The State Legislature is notorious at dragging its feet when it comes to improving mass transit in Baltimore.
E_DOG
Hey Andee, have you checked you e-mail?? Since you said you live in my old neighborhood, I've wanted to compare notes a little and I dropped you n email.
Yes, I'll get back to you over the weekend
Peace,
ANDEE
Newark AirTrain begins service Sept 30. Read Newsday's article, located at:
http://www.newsday.com/news/skybot/city/friday/nd6955.htm
Charging quite a premium for one-seat service from NY Penn, I might add. You can do NY Penn -> NJ penn for $2 and then NJ penn -> airport station for $5.65 for a total of $7.65, much cheaper than the $11.15 for direct service.
Your fare is a premium fare, too. Plus, how do you get to the airline terminal from the rail station?
If I recall correctly, PATH is $1.50 to Newark Penn (assuming a round-trip fare), and, unless fares have changed, I used to pay $1 on NJ Transit bus #62 to the airport, which drops you off within walking distance of the gate. That's $2.50, one third what you're paying.
Thanks for the article.
Hmm. The Airlink bus fare has increased to $4 adults and $2 children to the airport from Penn Sta. Newark. I know these are the prices but I don't know if they're the same for peak hours or normal service.
I'll have to think extensively about which option is better. For a frequent flyer, or a regular commuter, I'd go with the Newark Int'l Airport rail station. I think for frequent flyers NJT, Amtrak, and the PA will have to designate prices for special ticket fares. (i.e. time-saving ten-trip tickets)
Sept. 30 is a good opening date for the airport link station. It's on a Sunday. Reason being is maybe the terminal can open before the peak period starts at the beginning of the work week.
Does anyone know:
1) Which trains will be stopping at the Airport station? The article says 'several trains' from NJT.
2) What will be the official name for the terminal? A good name will be 'Newark Airport Rail Station', though I would accept some suggestions.
Answers to these questions will be greatly appreciated...
Railfan Pete.
You would get to the gate from the station via the monorail extension. That is why they extended the monorail, to provide a link from the Airport to the NE corridor rail tracks.
I guess it depends on how faster it is, the "hassle factor" of witching, # and weight of bags carried, etc.
Oops! Switching not witching although I'm sure someone here could work that word in somehow.
On my way to work this morning, I walked through the Canal Street Bridge Line station, marveling at how the station was finally in use again after so many years in awful decay.
A Bridge-bound W pulled in. I saw that a few of the in-between cars carried a "W-Diamond" symbol on their ends.
I don't recall hearing about such a designation. What is it?
I have seen many of the Diamond Ws between the cars.
Maybe it designates (or someone thought that it would designate) trains running express in Astoria. Maybe the planners had second thoughts about that.
More likely, if you have to change and or add letters, may as well add a few extra in case you want them later. Cheaper to do many at once, than to come back later and do them all over again.
Elias
The W was supposed to be express on the elevated line to Ditmars Blvd. - Astoria, with the N line serving local stations during normal hours, and also in Manhattan on the Broadway (N,R) line. Unfortunately, the W will stop at 49 St. (N,R) station. I think it reroutes back to local in Brooklyn all the way to Stillwell Av.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The old rollsigns don't have W-in-a-circle. They do have W-in-a-diamond. So that's where they're cranked. It doesn't mean anything special.
Confusing though.
And frustrating for us subway buffs, I also thought there was a hidden meaning
The diamond W was put into the rollsigns of all the overhauled cars on the late 1980's. It was meant for a rush hour Ditmars/Whitehall all local service to compliment the N when full Manhattan Bridge service returned and the N no longer served lower Manhattan.
Yesterday rode a R40 Slant south from 42nd to Canal - was in last car looking out the rear. As we entered the bridge station, right behind the eastbound platform, there seems to be 2 tunnels that go somewhere. There is a portable office there in one track and the other has something else.
What is this?
I do not see any indication of a tunnel on the Track Maps on this site. Is this a connection to southbound N/R tracks to City Hall via Express? To Nassau? (According to the track maps, the Nassau connection is after the station, before the bridge so I guess it isn't this.)
The Canal Street line was originally meant to go east-west under Canal Street. Never happened. They're not on the track maps since there were never any tracks.
Go east-west. And what, terminal on the west side or shoot up the west side via 8th Ave or maybe 11th/12th Ave (if iT was to be built?)
I remember reading on this site (either a post or some other place) that one part of the second system proposed a 10th Avenue line. Now I know the IND was to compete with the IRT and BMT, but maybe this cross Canal line could have merged or turned up 10th Avenue. It's only a guess
In the original Manhattan Bridge service plan, the south side tracks were to terminate at Chambers St. The north side tracks were to feed into a Canal St line that went all the way to the Hudson River. The Broadway BMT line was never originally meant to use the bridge, which is why the Canal St. "local" station looks like a normal local stop with completely unused express tracks.
The South side of the Manny B tracks used to go into Chambers Street, while the North side went into the Canal Street Bridge Station.
The TT train used to make the "Nassau Stree Loop" returning to DeKalb and the West End via the Tunnel.
With the intrusion of the 6th Avenue Line onto our beloved BMT System, the North Side tracks served 6th Avenue, the South Side tracks served Broadway, and the connection between the Manny B and Nassau Street was abandoned. The M train covers this service from the Willie B.
Elias
does anybody have any idea how far the tunnels goes alomg Canal st?
What was the path of the Nassau Street Loop?
It went over the bridge on the south side and then where - DEKALB? and where did it go South, to Wall? Broad?, through the Tunnel?
It went (I believe) north from DeKalb over the south side of the bridge, down Nassau St, and back through the Montague St. tunnel to DeKalb again.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
DeKalb - Myrtle - bridge - Chambers - Fulton - Broad - tunnel - Court - Lawrence - DeKalb
A loop.
Most of the time, it ran in the opposite direction, up the tunnel, up Nassau, and deadheading over the bridge. At least this is how the Brighton Banker specials, West End local and the Culver (prior ro 1954) ran. Only the Bay Ridge/4th Ave Bankers specials crossed the bridge from Dekalb, running DOWN Nassau St.
What is going on with the R-143 MU's? Just the first eight cars? When is the next delivery?
The next delivery will happen when the first 8 MU's finish interviewing all the new MU's they will be supervising. They're very picky, you know.
:-)
This past Wednesday, July 25, 2001, the eight R-143 cars were operated back and forth on the IND Rockaway Line test track north of Broad Channel. I was able to see them in different directions each from the front storm door window on an R-38 "A" train to and from Far Rockaway.
-William A. Padron
The R143 must serve for at least a month in revenue service without a mechanical breakdown. It has yet to even to begin this. Assume a few problems will force the clock to be reset a few times (like with the R142) before the required month long test period is successfully completed. Then, I believe delivery will be 40 cars a month, like the R142. Don't expect to see R143's in any numbers for the rest of the year.
I know the N and others like the A/C/E and S run Silverbirds, but yesterday saw an R silverbird. Why would they use this on the R?
If they needed extra trains, prefernce to R40 Slants.
You mean R-32's? A few R-32's are supposed to run on the R. More drift over (from the E?) on many weekends. R-40's never run on the R.
what shuttle runs Silverbird R32s?
Queensbridge.
6th avenue shuttle.
Peace,
andee
Good, somebody corrected it.
R-32s are no longer assigned to the R (as of the bridge "flip"), but may still be seen from time to time.
David
Thx to the W using the 60th, R TPH was reduced, so there is no longer a need for R-32s on the R. Those trains went to the Queensbridge shuttle, I presume.
BTW: If anyone out there in MTA headquarters is listening: We NEED more Lower Manhattan service rush hours! Send a few Ws down there or something!
Yes, you are correct - any R32s you see on the "R" come from Jamaica Yard. These would normally be found on the "E".
wayne
FYI: one E train consisted of Coney Island R32's this week...I'll post the car numbers...
No...one train (may have) consisted of FORMER Coney Island R-32s. 14 R-32s were transferred from Coney Island to Jamaica due to the Manhattan Bridge "flip." Sorry, I don't have the car numbers...
David
First question:
What is a 'Silverbird'?
This is to someone who posted about 'We need more lower Manhattan rush hour service':
The T/A cannot run its system by someone's preference. They can't pull out their magical wand out of the hat and say "We'll provide you an 'x' number of W's so that we can serve passengers better."
The problem being is that W trains already have a set route to travel. They can't switch tracks automatically between stations and mess up the traffic signals and timers there. Have you ever noticed the new map with the W,Q, and Q's? After Canal St. local station on the N,R, the W drifts away to Brooklyn.
Tracks are insufficient for random W trains to collide into the Broadway N,R line to Whitehall St. And of course, the W CANNOT MAKE WHITEHALL ST. ITS LAST STATION STOP, NEITHER CAN IT GO TO LOWER MANHATTAN BEYOND CANAL ST.! Wouldn't you take time to imagine the consequences and situation of this happening?
Any questions or responses will be appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
Just to let you know. On the evening of July 26 (This past Thursday) I was on a Sothbound W train that did not go over the Manhattan Bridge. Instead it went along the N and R lines through Lower Manhattan and into Brooklyn :)
I call the Brightliners "Silverbirds" b/c they are basically similar to the R26s-30s (both IND/IRT) - and these cars are called REDBIRDS - so since the Brightliners aren't painted Red, I call them Silverbirds.
The Redbirds are rippled? Well, maybe from the rust...
Sometimes the E and R swap cars. I saw several R46 E trains yesterday.
The R-46 is frequently used in E service.
I saw 5 R46 E's last night during the PM rush (not including the one I was on). I saw 2 R32 R's as well.
Thats been known to happen. Id like to see an R-32 or R38 on the J or L lines. Thats sure to turn some heads. I actually saw an R-40 on the J line once. 99.9% of the time its nothing but R-40M's and R-42's on the J.
Yup, I rode some slants on the J a few months back as well.
The J will get to use R32's eventually, as the R40/42 cars get retired.
More likely the J will get to use R-160s. The plan (at least at this point) is to order enough four-car units to (along with the R-143s) meet East New York Shop's requirements, along with several five-car units (probably for E service).
David
I doubt that the entire eastern division will be given new cars over other high profile lines. The only reason the L is getting them is because of the CBCT. Look for the R160's to go into service on lines like the N/E/Q, etc.
Look...the cars haven't even been ordered yet. As of now, they could go anywhere, or never be ordered. I'm just reporting what the plan was the last time I heard an update (which was a few months ago). I didn't hear it on SubTalk; I heard it in the office from my boss, who is in a position to know such things.
David
I know. Just speculation. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
I just don't believe the city will put the R160's on the J and M, leaving the older R32's on the more high profile lines.
I'm probably the last person on this board to ride the subway since the changes took effect. If it hadn't been so hot and humid Monday through Wednesday I might've done it, but I avoid riding in such conditions if at all possible.
(Someone at work gave me their extra parking pass AND my place offers staggered early summer hours, so I've been driving instead of taking the subway, and getting home at 4:00 instead of 4:30. Call me a turncoat if you must.)
Last night's extremely cool conditions beckoned, so we drove to Ditmars terminal around 5:30. There must have been some kind of delay, because when we got up to the platform, both tracks were empty-hardly the norm during rush hour. Shortly, an extremely crowded R-32 'N' pulled in followed closely by a virtually empty 'W'. It was announced that the 'W' would leave first, but no one sitting on the 'N' moved across to it. Maybe they were all going to local stations below 34th Street?
We didn't pass another Astoria-bound train till an R-68 at 36th Avenue, followed by a 32 at 39th. Both were very crowded, further bolstering suspicions of delays. All inbound platforms through Queensboro Plaza were fairly crowded, but once again many people wouldn't get on our 'W'. We finally passed an outbound 'W' while going downhill towards the portal; it looked virtually empty.
Switched at Lexington for a downtown '5' Redbird, then at 14th for an R-142 to Canal. The strip map and transfer announcements were still not updated for Bleecker or Canal. Since we were in a rear car, we passed the front stairway at Bleecker too fast to see if the platform signs had been updated. At Canal, tiny circles for the 'Q' and 'W' were stuck onto the platform transfer signs.
Came downstairs to the uptown bridge platform just in time to miss a Slant. The station was renovated to the same attractice pattern as the 'N' and 'R' platforms. The outbound platform seemed fairly empty. We got to see all three services go by in each direction, and none of the outbound trains seemed particularly crowded, but they each had rather long dwell time. Repeated announcements and multiple door closings were common. Either people still hadn't caught on, or the crowds had thinned by 6:15. There were platform guards on both platforms, but no one sought assistance. Outbound trains appear to take the sharp downhill curve from Broadway onto Canal pretty fast.
When the Slant came, it took the express run decently but not spectacularly- understandable, considering three services use it. It may be much better on weekends when there's only one service- even if it IS all 68s. There's a dramatic slowdown on the curve north of 8th Street. Both our train and a Slant 'N' stood at 34th Street with doors open for a long time, no doubt to allow the 'W' in front of us to switch over at Times Square.
We took a bathroom break and glass elevator ride at the Marriott Marquis, and headed over to 49th and 7th. As we got to the bottom of the stairs, an uptown 'W' stood there that I held out no hope of getting on, but there were enough confused passengers blocking the doors that I was able to swipe my card, get on and find a seat with time to spare.
Most of the few passengers on board were scratching their heads and staring at the maps, which were updated. Despite very clear announcements, hardly anyone got on at the remaining three Manhattan stations. Someone in my car asked about 36th Avenue. I told him to get off at the Plaza to wait for the 'N'. He said he'd rather ride to Ditmars and backtrack. I didn't say another word.
At the Plaza, the conductor said we were only going to Astoria Boulevard and Ditmars Boulevard, without using the term 'express'. A '7' pulled in across the platform at the same time, and you could hear a huge collective screech of brakes as all the transferers froze when they saw this train was not an 'N'. The express run up 31st Street was surreal, but sluggish. Some people at the inbound local stops gawked and pointed at us as we passed. We stood at Astoria for quite a long time waiting for Ditmars to clear, but that's nothing new. It always happened on weekends with ONE service.
Heading for the stairs at Ditmars, a woman asked which train was going to Manhattan. I asked her what stop she wanted, as the two trains make different stops in Manhattan. She got all huffy, so I tired to explain that I can't help her unless she's more specific. Well, I tried.
I'm on vacation all next week, so there's lots of catching up to do.
I'm probably the last person on this board to ride the subway since the changes took effect. If it hadn't been so hot and humid Monday through Wednesday I might've done it, but I avoid riding in such conditions if at all possible.
I haven't ridden the subway since the Wednesday before the flip. So I'm still last! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I have been upstate since early July. I'm sure there are others on this board who aren't in NYC often so I expect those to be the last ones. I won't get my rides until mid August.
=)
I haven't been on the system since July 12th, and probably won't get to until mid-August. By then, all this stuff will be old news...
Sounds like a lot of people who could use the W are resisting beause they don't understand it. This betokens a potential problem.
>the last person on this board to ride
>the subway since the changes took effect.
Sounds like that's gonna be me, sir.
What happened to the Amtrak Turboliners that used to make the Emipre route up to ALbany from New York. I have seen pictures of them being refurbished. Are they going to be placed back in revenue service as part of Acela (if they arent running already)? If they are back in service does anyone know what times they run?
I believe there is still one roaming about the Empire Corridor, departs Poughkeepsie southbound at 1PM, NYP northbound at about 4:30 PM Mondays-Thursdays. I saw it leave NY around 5 PM on a Sunday earlier this year.
All turboliners will return to the empire corridor after they're refurbished. Nobody know when that will be.
But that is not the Super Steel rebuilt one. The one that is currently running will be the last one redone.
Well, I was back in my old neighborhood of upper Washington Heights today on Friday, July 27, 2001 (Bugs Bunny's 61st birthday), and I have noticed some major station improvements on the IND "A" line on that portion of its route. Most notably, the entire 190th Street station (my former long time home station stop) was entirely repainted in the light tan (beige) scheme, while the Bennett Avenue exit passageway and entrance was done complete in a tannish white (light color) and green, including on the wooden doors.
The Dyckman-200th Street station was being prepped for repainting as well, and at 181st Street station the process of putting new tiles are being used to fill in the empty ad wall spaces on the platform. The 207th Street terminal is still simply a marvelous showcase after its rebuilding but with colorful prefab tile wall paneling.
-William A. Padron
With only the few Bs and Ds running out of it to 34th St, Concourse yard must be the most empty yard in the system don't you think?
I believe Train Dude posted that they are actually fuller than ever. Before the bridge flip, they only stored a few B and D's overnight, the majority were stored in Brooklyn (I guess CI, but I think there is small yard called 39 street that laid up a few B's). But now they store more B and D's as they all have to stay west of the river. Also they are holding a lot the "condemed prisoners" aka Red Birds.
>>I think there is small yard called 39 street<<
It's actually 38th (or 36th) st yard. This yard is the main base for work trains.(aside from linden shops. I also know that Westchester yard holds a lot of work trains) A few B trains were laid up there nights, I don't know if W's are laid up there nights.
I was just looking at the W work programs this morning, and here is a job that starts at that yard, so they probably do store at least one there
Absolutely correct, although during the day it looks empty. At night there are 10 B trains, 8 D trains, 4 #4 trains, bad order #4 cars, spare and bad-order R-68s, all of the redfins waiting for the final swim and a large # of work equipment.
see 240th Street Yard during Rush-Hours.....
In no particular order:
-Ride the inbound 'W' express out of Astoria before noon.
-Ride each of the three Broadway express/Bridge services (different model on each) both ways. I did a Slant uptown from Canal to Times Square last night, so that's a small head start. It'll still mean three round trips over the Bridge.
-Get an R-142 on the '2' from the Bronx to Brooklyn. I'd done the entire route the other way in two segments, with an overlap from Fulton Street to Times Square, on consecutive weekends in June. Unfortunately, both times GOs forced us to run on the local tracks on either side of Times Square, so I haven't had a chance to evaluate the speed capabilities yet. On a day off last month, I tried to get an AM rush hour 142 out of 241st, but from 7:30 to 8:30 there was nothing but Redbirds, so I caved in. It wasn't until Freeman Street when a 142 finally passed by the other way.
-Get a 142A on the Bronx-bound Pelham express. I've ridden one downtown, and the speed was decent from Saint Lawrence to Elder. The other way should be even better, because the Redbirds and 62As I've ridden absolutely fly downhill from the river bridge all the way to Parkchester.
-Go to Broadway-Lafayette just to see how people react to seeing two 'S' trains of different models loading on adjacent tracks.
-Walk over the Manhattan Bridge, something never before possible in my lifetime. Some of you have reported that the views of the trains are partially obstructed, but it's still a first. I just hope it's safe in terms of criminals and speeding bicyclists.
-Ride NJT's Raritan branch all the way to High Bridge, which has only been possible outside of peak service since early 1995 (right when pregnancy and parenthood knocked me out of commission). The stretch between Somerville and High Bridge is the only NJT trackage I haven't been on (except the Atlantic City line). You gotta get up awful early in the morning to do this, but now that PATH charges $1.50, there's no financial motivation to trek out to Newark; I can board at Penn instead, which is much more convenient. For years I would only ride NE Corridor, Raritan or Coast trains out of Newark rather than Penn because tickets were $2.50 less. Now the difference is only $1.50, which is worth paying.
-Get to the beach at least once, weather permitting. Last year it didn't.
Have you ridden the HBLR yet? If not, you should put it on the list.
Thanks for asking. I rode the HBLR when it was a week old; I would have been there for the April 22, 2000 opening, but it was pouring rain that day. Since then I've been on it five times, twice since the extension to Pavonia/Newport opened.
Howard, are you coming to Try Transit this fall? I'll bet they let us ride the system free again. I spotted you at the fair last year, I should have talked to you.
Chuck Greene
Posted for Randy Kennedy of the NY Times
For a while now, i've been wanting to do a column that talks about the curious history of the IND, and one way i thought about getting into it was talking about, or profiling, some train buffs who are i guess what you would call IND partisans, people who love the IND and its lore and history more than the IRT or BMT. i've run across some of these people in my travels but thought that you might know some more informed and devoted IND-only people.
Reply to kennedyr@nytimes.com
Not to start a fight with my IND friends (all two of you) ;-)--I responded to Mr. Kennedy in part:
"From a railfan's point of view, it's difficult to be an IND buff for several reasons. Speaking as a Brooklynite, you could say rooting for the IND was like rooting for the Yankees during the '50s--it was kind of like cheerleading for General Motors or Microsoft.
"The original IND is beautifully built but bland. Almost completely underground with only one kind of equipment, of utilitarian design, it sports a history marked by few colorful characters but a much larger cast of aparatchiks.
"In short, the IND has very few of the things that inspire most buffs--pretty or interesting outdoor rights-of-way, a colorful history, innovative or exciting equipment, collectibles or artifacts.
"There are admirable things about the IND--its high state of engineering being prime. Also, it made a significant social contribution in that its civil service hiring policy gave many African American men an opportunity to become motorman in an era when it was uncommon.
"If I were an IND buff, I suppose I would cite its complex interlockings, ambitious terminals and unfulfilled plans as major points of interest."
Still, I wish him luck,
Right, Paul. the IND compared to the BMT is a bland, second-rate rapid transit system. The stations lack character and design. They all could have been created out of a 'cookie-cutter'.
The only thing I can say on a positive note, is that the IND led the way in the idea of the 'super express'. The Fulton Street/8th Avenue Line in Brooklyn and the E in Queens bieng the best examples.
Speed was the IND's only 'ace' card.
BMTman
Thats what I love about this board,you can learn tons of stuff here.
Speed was the IND's only 'ace' card
Isn't a shame, Doug, how the TA loused up what was perhaps the best run of all -- 125th-59th -- with timers?
Good point, Paul. But of course the timers were installed due to accidents (both human and otherwise) in years past. An unfortunate side effect of running a 24-hour commuter railroad on tight headways.
BMTman
Hey guy! Like most "public sector" projects, ornate and ostentatious has ALWAYS been a "no-no" ... anything beyond the most basic utilitarian, spartan appearance invites the "fleecing of America" types to crawl all over something good like flies on ... a ... ummm ... yankee frankee ... the designers of the IND didn't want to go too much further overboard than tile since that was accepted at the time as "cleanliness," something the privately held IRT was NEVER known for. But it was political pressure that resulted in the "boring" aspects of the IND's "design" ... the trains got you there a hell of a lot faster than those on the lines the IND competed with ... until recently.
Right Kev, 'until recently'. Now the IND doesn't run any faster than the BMT or the IRT. Talk about 'standardization'.....:-D
BMTman
That IS a shame ... the IND was designed with VERY gentle curves along most of its route, flat level straightaways built for speed and relatively generous track spacings from the walls to cut down on air fritcion "drag" ... from all those years of riding it and a short time "running" it, I can't fathom HOW you could need timers on it until you approach the interlocks on either side of the dash and the realignment of the tracks coming off the "stack" at each end of it. Even if you let gravity do its thing without encumberance, it was STILL a pretty much straight line until you got to the homeballs. I don't get it.
I know this isn't a very nice thing to say, but the TA must have a MIGHTY low opinion of its employees if so much "bunkering" is required. Used to be if you didn't cut it, you'd be shown the gate, end of story and no regrets. Maybe they should install airbags. :)
from all those years of riding it and a short time "running" it, I can't fathom HOW you could need timers on it until you approach the interlocks on either side of the dash and the realignment of the tracks coming off the "stack" at each end of it. Even if you let gravity do its thing without encumberance, it was STILL a pretty much straight line until you got to the homeballs. I don't get it.
If we're talking CPW the story goes like this: After a decade, the BofT inspected the CPW express tracks and found them worn beyond anything they had seen in a similar time period. THey blamed it on the normal stresses of operating numerous trains at full speed.
So they ruined one of the great express runs to save money on future track replacement. Don't know if the story is true, but it's what I heard "way back when." Sounds plausible insofar as that kind of thinking was very much the City mentality at least since Unification.
That's NUTS ... perhaps if the wheel truing shop at Coney had seen more of those cars back then, the tracks wouldn't have gotten pounded to death by flat wheels. :)
But yeah, I guess there's a mission afoot to take the "rapid" out of "rapid transit" ... just amazes me sometimes. If ever there was a place though to experiment with continuous welded rail, that'd be the place.
How many facts does he want to know about the IND? I'd bore his ears off.
Figures the Times would do something on the IND. It was a big government project (good in the Times' eyes) that went after the mney-grubbing corporate interests of the BMT and IRT (bad in the Times' eyes), and like the Times, the system showed a high amount of intellegence (the flying junctions and 600-foot platforms) but paired it with a severe lack of common sense (building the Sixth Ave. line on a street filled with cost-increasing obsticles over several other far-more needed routes).
Figures the Times would do something on the IND. It was a big government project (good in the Times' eyes) that went after the mney-grubbing corporate interests of the BMT and IRT (bad in the Times' eyes), and like the Times, the system showed a high amount of intellegence (the flying junctions and 600-foot platforms) but paired it with a severe lack of common sense (building the Sixth Ave. line on a street filled with cost-increasing obsticles over several other far-more needed routes).
How true. The one development that would make me positively ecstatic would be if Rupert Murdoch mounted a hostile takeover of the Times Company, followed by the "re-engineering" of the entire management and editorial staff (except John Tierney and William Safire, of course). Unfortunately, I believe that the Sulzbergers own enough stock to thwart any such attempt.
you want the Times turned into another tree wasting piece of fish wrap
? How nice. If you don't like their editorial viewpoint, DON'T BUY the paper. Meanwhile some of us will continue to read it with some interest.
Tranit comment. For someone like me who moved to NY in 66 left in 70 the IND was a fait accompli. I have no emotional anger left from losing previous el's. Au contraire as the most comprehensive single design before the DC Metro, the IND IMHO stands out as a grand scheme crippled by stupidity(Moses), bad luck(depression, war), and corruption(TWO bond issues with less than a mile built!). All that said, they were smart enough to build full size stations.which have not quite maxed out today, unlike the BMT lines with the necessary platform lengthening of the 60's. As to the mezzanines, (AND the convenient connections to buildings and stores, I would open ALL of them back up. It has been my great pleasure, courtesy of this board and Joe Brennan's excellent pages, to learn what the mystery parts are that so amazed me as a younger rider.
There was a separate thread on Acela Express speeds that was straying, so I'll start things anew. First thanks to author Chaohwa for including reference to my Acela speeds chart posted on my website and cudos to author Jersey Mike who is accurate as always on the mile posts of the 150 territory.
There seems some misunderstanding about the retangular speed signs along the NEC. Those signs are not the speed limits, but restrictions on the limit, due usually to a curve or interlocking trackwork ahead. There doesn't seem to be "resume" signs posted so that probably is a part of the misunderstanding.
Remember too, Acela Express has its own set of speed limits and restrictions to those limits, that is usually higher, but is not posted with any visible signs on the right of way. Acela Express limits, "Train Type A" in the timetable; are only in the employee's timetable/bulletin.
With that out of the way let me invite you to drop by the website which covers railfanning Acela Express with vid caps of on board and trackside video and modelling the Express in HO scale on a portable layout.
The layout will be East, next, at the end of September in Wilmington, Delaware, and then at the Transit convention in Philly the following week.
Drop by the website and I would love to hear your comments. Finally, Kingston, R.I. is not in the 150 mph territory, but adjacent to it.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/acelatrains
An error occurred. I still can't link to the site...
Let me retype this again. Remember, no "www."
http://community.webtv.net/acelatrains
David Harrison
I typed it in exactly as you did, and saw a dark colored "redirect" display, followed by an error message that the page I was looking for was not on the server.
I am using Netscape 6. Perhaps I should try with Netscape 4.7 or IE...
It worked using Netscape 4.7. You can try it that way.
Chaohwa
I'll try. In the meantime, I used my dial-up AT&T service and did see the site using IE5.
There doesn't seem to be "resume" signs posted so that probably is a part of the misunderstanding.
They are down in the track bed, you gotta look hard.
As there are many PSR's of 100, 105 and even 110 you must not forget the host of 90's, 80's and the 55 for the famous Elizabeth 'S' Curve. How fast can the ACELA's go around that?
This might be a funny question but:
What is a track bed?
All of the 'PSR's are located between the catenary wires.
They are found between the auxiliary and the messenger wires.
Railfan Pete.
Not all of them. Take a ride in the rear vestabule, some are down in the track bed (what the sleepers rest on, i.e. the ballast)
Also the signs are APPROACH SPEED LIMIT signs. You need to APPROACH the SLOW SPEED SIGN at that speed. The speed limit sign is a yellow diamond w/ a black 'S' in it. You can then resume your speed at the RESUME SPEED SIGN which is a green square w/ a white R in it. Both SLOW and RESUME signs are always on the track bed and are hard to spor if you're not looking for them.
I have read that the Acela can take a curve which would limit a Metroliner to 75 mph, at 110 mph. Is the relationship roughly proportional? I don't know. Could Acela take a really tight S-curve at 75 or 80 where a conventional train would be limited to 50 or 55 (or slower)?
I don't know enough about the engineering...
Amtrak timetables designate Acela Express as HST (High Speed Trainsets with active tilt) and as Train type A. Other AEM-7 and HHP-8 powered equipment are usually Type B.
Some data from Washington-Philadelphia; Type A speed restriction then type B.
CVS MP5 100/90
CV MP50 105/90
CV MP57 110/95
CV Gunp 115/100
There are many curves with restrictions for Type B and no restrictions for Type A. Type A can maintain maximum speed.
North of New Haven (East) curves above 70 allowed Type A to do 10 miles per hour faster; 65/70; 75/65; 85/75.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/acelatrains
At the worst PSR on the NEC, the big curve at SHORE (Frankford Jct.), the ACELA's are limitd to 50 along w/ everything else as it is all the signaling system can handle.
Yeah, that's one more thing Amtrak has to upgrade (SEPTA doesn't have the money...)
I usually try to figure these out by observation, but my observation tells me RTO doesn't know what the hell they're doing. Example:
Monday, Wed, Thursday: 57st (Q) and < Q > Put-ins.
Thursday: Canal st (W) put-in.
Friday: 57st (W) put-ins, after the rush is mostly over (5:50 PM).
Can anyone tell me what's supposed to be going on? I can't even keep track of my Rs from Whitehall!
I don't need a complex schedule, so long as I know the start time and station, and which direction it's going. ie:Canal (W) 16:30 Northbound.
I do not have a list of the put-ins over there since I do not work that section.
But what I CAN tell you is that if a Q train is put-in at 7:30 am on Tuesday, then that is the same thing for Mon, Wed, Thur and Fri. Road conditions may force supervision to deviate from normal operations however such as bringing out put-ins early, or losing one due to faulty equipment.
There are exceptions such as the J line's midnight tour from Sunday night into Monday morning, or the OPTO put-ins on the PM tour on the G line, but there aren't many exceptions.
T/O list is now up to number 718 on the list. I am almost sure to be called for the next class as my list number is in 740something.
I have some questions, which some of you can hopefully answer.
1. Will the TA call previous employers?
2. Will they ask questions about me to previous employers?
3. What kind of questions can I expect the TA to ask them?
4. Legally, can the TA ask only certain questions?
5. If I get a bad reference, does the TA have to inform
me so?
T/O list is now up to number 718 on the list. I am almost sure to be called for the next class as my list number is in 740something.
I have some questions, which some of you can hopefully answer.
1. Will the TA call previous employers?
2. Will they ask questions about me to previous employers?
3. What kind of questions can I expect the TA to ask them?
4. Legally, can the TA ask only certain questions?
5. If I get a bad reference, does the TA have to inform
me so?
I don't know the TA's policy, but I do know that many employers these days will not give out any information on former employees beyond verifying the dates of employment. They won't comment on performance, except maybe to say whether the employee left for cause.
Thank you for writing back.
I believe that you are 100% correct. Let's say I was fired from a job, and the TA calls the location, and they say, ".... worked here from (date)-(date)", and nothing else.
Sometimes, not giving any reference is the same as giving a bad one.
I believe that you are 100% correct. Let's say I was fired from a job, and the TA calls the location, and they say, ".... worked here from (date)-(date)", and nothing else.
Sometimes, not giving any reference is the same as giving a bad one.
I'm sure the personnel workers at the TA are aware of the no-information policies at many businesses. It shouldn't hurt your chances any if a former employer declines to give any information, as that's more or less what the TA expects to hear.
Two out of three of my previous employers were out of business when I joined Transit - didn't seem to make a difference.
They can't ask your age, sex, marital status or religion during the interview process. Some of this becomes OK once you have the job.
Damn their up that that many huh? I feel like an old timer already I was in the first class that started in January. I got a 100 on the test and it would have been 105 but TA screwed up someway with my veteran credit and that would have put my list number at 1 or 2. But that OK I still made the first class and I can use my credits for TSS. Just remember to listen to all your Motor Instructors and study hard. O yeah and watch out for those Home Balls and Timers. One thing they may not tell you when you go thru the hiring process is that you need to get a 100 on a signal test thats 20 out of 20 right if not your back on the street.
It's highly unlikely that the TA will attempt to contact any of your previous employers, unless you have an above average criminal record.
The only thing that they really check up on is if you do have a record, and if so that you've disclosed anything. Leaving even one thing out can be cause for disqualification.
If you have no record, then you should be in like flynn.
My friend just got called for the urine test for the conductors job. He showed up, took the piss test, and left with a 20 page booklet asking him everything about his life. He was told to fill this booklet out, and have it ready in 30-90 days when he would be called for the next phase of testing.
In the previous employment section, there is a page for every job you have had. On the bottom of each page, there is an "official use only" box which says, "letter", or "phone", and there is a check box next to each word.
This means that the TA might contact previous employers by phone or letter. At least that's what they're supposed to do. My guess is that they just want to make sure you worked where you say you worked, and if they catch you lying, then GOODBYE!!!!!
20 page booklet??? Whoa times have changed!! When I was hired in 1993, they took my $51 for the fingerprint test, I filled out a 1 page application and that was it.
It's funny because I seem to remember filling out a background form long ago regarding the T/O job, but I could be wrong.
I wish I could corner one of the new T/O hired off the street recently to tell me what they went through, but I have had little luck.
I just know that the guys hired in Feb, who "got out" and have started work last week, have told me that the investigation period is relatively short.
For example, the guys who started T/O training on Feb 26, got a letter in the mail in the beginning of Jan telling them to come down for a urine test. Once they past that, they came back for a physical, interview, and I think once again for fingerprinting. So we're talking about 6 or 7 weeks from the time everyone got a letter, to the date they got the job.
Yeah, it was very quick, like a flash. I'm sorry I forgot to mention to you the 20 page questionnaire. (See, That whole period was such a blur!) Most of my old employers were long gone. Th Census Bureau and NYS-DHCR are still around, but the offices I worked at and the supervision are long since moved.
The second time you go back to 1250, you're mostly waiting around all day, then you take the pictures for the ID, and the fingerprinting.
First day, you report to the Union Hall way over on 11th Av. and 64th, where you're basically lectured to all day regarding union matters. Th next 2 days you report to PS248 on Av. U, where you sit in the auditorium all day, receive your tools, are measured for uniforms, watch videos on safety and already, how to bang yourself in when you overrun a station.
Then you choose which div., if you're being given that choice (Feb26th was, but the first class wasn't and were all sent to the A div.--only for all those in both classes to be sent to the B later). If the A is being opened again, you may only get to pick it if you're high on the list. It fills up after awhile( The seniority rank kicks in already).
Then you're grouped into your small classes (TA- or TB- followed by a number. You'll probably be in the 30's by now for B div.), and the yard you will be based in. Our instructors (me and Tony IND's class, which were together at Jamaica yard) were told to report to Continental, in the crew room the next day. There we were shown the crew reporting center. Then we went to Parsons-Archer, where we also saw the crew reporting center, crew rooms, and the connections between both levels in the tunnel beyond both ends of the station. Then we walked to Parsons on the F and were shown 179. Then it was off to the yard, and the classroom ("school car", which here was a trailer, but in most other yards are actual retired cars--R-30 redbirds on the B div) and we were taken out to the "head" of the yard and shown basics of how switches work, and how to hook down a stop arm. I'm not sure what the other classes did the first day in their yard.
From there, we rapidly began aquiring hands on knowledge of the equipment, and traveled to the other yards and facilities. Get ready for the structure walk-- you see those flimsy boards or slightly better yellow fibreglass walks on the elevated lines. We have to be able to walk on those, like if the train goes BIE and we have to inspect, and places like Lefferts you lay up trains in the middle and have to cross the eleveted switches with ties that have nothing between them and slippery creosote all over the place (And to make it worse, you're not supposed to step on rails) and some yards and towers can be accessed by these walkways. Both me and Tony are very nervous on them.
Then there's the Simulator. But in our classes we bagan moving actual cars before our first visit to Livingston, so the Simulator was like nothing. You should get alot more road practice than the curriculum actually calls for, and we needed it! The 3rd visit to the Simulator is the Signal Test, which you have to get 100 on. This will be towards the end, though. Early on, you will be shown how to manually retrieve an electric portion (the electrical trainline connections on the couplers.) This is hard for some people, as it can be pretty tight, and you're down inbetween and almost under cars in an awkward position. All my arm muscles ached after the first time, and there is this big guy in our class we teased until the last day because he could harly do it at all.
Well, that't the basics ow what you'll encounter in school car. It was quite an adventure.
Timers, WD's, "KYL's," actual stop signs, and now this ... no bout adoubt it, the route of the rusty nail is planning to hire simians ...
We have a booklet like that as well as list every school you went to back to kindergarden.
Pain in the a** if you ask me. They used to make you fill it everytime you changed title so I kept a copy >G<. Now there is only a 4 page update sheet if you already filled one out. I wonder how long it took them to figure that out.
While you are on probation for the first year TA is doing a background check on you. (the 20 page booklet) If anything comes up "dirty" they can fire you no questions asked. I know of one person fired with one week to go on probation because of "non disclosure".
I'm going to catch NJTransit from Penn Station out to Madison to visit some friends tomorrow. What should I look out for?
Dan
Are you a first-time rider of NJT? It seems like you are.
You can trust the service of NJT and the riders are trustworthy, and most of them are not 'buggy' or 'short-tempered and easily agitated'. The conductors are all friendly, and no one that you come across will sell you drugs, look like a bum (I don't know how else to put it) or something.
If any problems arise, you may let me know at once.
Good luck and enjoy your trip!
Railfan Pete.
I rode to PJT from NYP one Saturday morning across the aisle from a drunk, loud, barefooted, homeless man on his way to Trenton. He was such a pain in the ass that the passengers complained and the conductor threw him off at PJT, but not before yelling at him, "You're being too loud, ya stink, and you're getting off my train!" I'm sure the residents of West Windsor were later surprised to see this buy roaming about their idyllic township. I wonder if he ever made it to Trenton...
Gee sounds like the 540am out of GCT on the New Haven. 3/4 of the pax have hang overs since the missed the last train from last night around 1am. >G<
Board the train at 5:25am and everyone is lying down across the seats in drunk snores. 5:30 and on the crew is banging on the seats "One Ticket One Seat, This ain't your bedroom, Feet on the Floor" >G<.
Some of the stations on that ROW (the old E-L) are a trifle dilapidated -- especially the ones near Newark/Broad St (the Oranges come to mind) -- but all in all, it's a pleasant ride.
There aren't that many historical sites to see. The NJ Transit "throwback" trains to Port Jervis and its old turntable are much better for that, as you pass by a great deal of no-longer used E-L tracking and structures (you even get to watch them turn the Steam loco on the old turntable at Port Jervis, as well as get several photo-op "run-bys" at the Port Jervis station).
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Is that you, Bill? I like the modernized spelling.
No, I'm not Bill. My name is Chris, and I just thought I'd try to come up with some sort of sub-heading that identified which stop I live nearest...
But thanks for liking the spelling...
Sit on the left hand side of car. After you get out of the tunnel, you can see all the work being done at Secaucus Transfer.
It is also interesting when crossing the Passaic River, and the trip from Broad Street Newark through the Oranges.
Hope you enjoy the trip.
I had the day off from work and decided to venture over to ENY to see what's the latest with the Canarsie Line El structure by Pitkin and Sneidiker. Nothing new to report on the El, but I got a surprise when I spied several tracker trailers parked on Junius between Liberty and East New York Avenues. The entire block was closed for a film shoot. Turns out it was the crew for the NBC series 'The Third Watch' and they were using the tunnel portal of the LIRR Bay Ridge branch for filming. Apparently, a railroad will figure prominently in one of the episodes in the fall.
So, keep your eyes out for 'Third Watch' in September.
BMTman
Did you volunteer to be an extra? :-)
No, Bob, I was TOO BUSY taking pictures to submit to www.lirrhistory.com for future use (if possible)
:-)
There IS something new to report both at Atlantic and at Sutter - new lighting is up at Atlantic - and the bases are in place at Sutter. No doubt this is going to be more of those goofy-looking hatbox lights - they have ruined Atlantic and Eastern Parkway AND Broadway Junction with them, when replicas of the originals are available too. PHOOOEY!
wayne
Thanks for that news Wayne! I hadn't ventured to the station platforms, since I was primarily interested in the steel structure. BUT, I will get to check out the platform on my next trip.
BMTman
Yes, those silly-looking lights have spread like a fungus all up and down the Broadway El, and now they've invaded the last bastion of Original 1917 Cast Iron - Atlantic Avenue. They can be found at the south end of the far west platform, the one they intend to keep.
As for Eastern Parkway, they have taken hold at the west end of the station, and they've been painted a hideous shade of green! YECCCCHHH!!! Actually I like the green better than the plain silver. But green or silver, I can't stand these things; they ruin the character of the station. The only thing that could be said for them is that they do a good job of lighting, and I guess that's what counts. But why did Myrtle merit the repro lights and not any of these other stations? They look GREAT at Myrtle. And they're also at Queensboro Plaza (where they painted them the wrong color) and Sheepshead Bay too.
I am a purist when it comes to platform lights.
wayne
Aw man! I was somewhat near there on the J!
This report contains questions and comments throughout the whole thing, I doubt it's going over two paragraphs, so here goes:
{I haven't rode the subway since July 20 before the flip except for a quick diamond Q ride from Kings Hwy to Church Ave earlier this week.}
Went via bus to Coney Island, to start. Took (Q) to Brighton Bch for . The front/back signs are terrible, as they aren't lit and appear smaller in size because the shape is a diamond not a full-sized circle. It's like being in absolute darkness, though I know what they are you don't see the letter until it's a few feet away. So is the TA doing something about this? Anyway, I planned on taking this over the bridge, but it was early so I got off at Atlantic to go for a Northbound R142 #2. A 3 came in and the first 2 was an R142. This would make my fifth trip on one of these and I didn't want to get too off course so I got off at Borough Hall to get back to my original purpose. I went down to the M/N/R. I waited for whatever came in first, I had the option of taking a southbound train to DeKalb to go for the bridge, or Northbound train to Canal. An M came in, even though it was 7:30PM the signs all said 9 Ave as the south terminal. Went for Broad St to get off for the Z, the only line I haven't taken in the subway system {except for the W} which I don't really count. Took it to Canal to go for the bridge tracks. I wanted to go up further to take something down Bway Exp but I've done that before on N/R GOs and so I just waited for the first W after a circle Q. The hill to the bridge is awesome, going down must be good, but I was headed up of course. I searched on the outside of the tracks for the Nassau Loop tracks but didn't find an outlet at all. Could someone tell me if they are still visible and if so, where in relation to the start of the bridge and the Canal St station they are? Took the W to Pacific, went across back to the Q/Q. Took (Q) for the sake of taking it {my first one} and got off at Prospect Park for to Brighton Bch. Along the way the regular D/Q format was followed, ie the lcl leaving Church just before the exp came in, woe to those on the exp headed for Beverly/Cortelyou. Any comments would be appreciated.
If you "haven't rode the subway since July 20 before the flip except for a quick diamond Q ride from Kings Hwy to Church Ave earlier this week," whose trip report is this?
By the way, be careful with your angle brackets.
- Lyle Goldman
No, I meant I haven't rode the subway since July 20 before I took Friday the 27th's trip. In terms of the angle brackets, I remember seeing them on the screen when I typed the message so maybe they don't come up but yes, I meant diamond Q had terrible front/end signs.
Angle brackets are interpreted here as HTML tags, and Q in angle brackets quotes all following paragraphs until the end of the page or a closing delimiter is encountered. To display angle brackets, use < (ampersamd + lt + ;) for the left angle bracket (less-than sign) and > (ampersand + gt + ;) for the right angle bracket (greater-than sign). Thus, <Q> should look like . To be perfectly sure, use the Message Preview before posting.
- Lyle Goldman
Actually, that didn't work very well either, did it? Perhaps there is a bug in Dave Pirmann's posting software?
- Lyle Goldman
If you use IE, use < without the ; This will not work in Netscape.
Apparently the board software tries to process < before it's posted.
Actually, it does work under Netscape 6.
- Lyle Goldman
< <Q> >
It's actually a feature to prevent people from posting in HTML. :-)
It doesn't seem to be working
And though it can be a pain to some, that's what I *LIKE* about this site. It's deliberately designed to prevent some moron from posting expoitive javascript and nasties, yet allow useful body tags for URL's and picture links. I like it JUST the way it is. No tocar!
How does it prevent the posting of JavaScript?
How does it prevent the posting of JavaScript?
> It's actually a feature to prevent people from posting in HTML.
Really? Then isn't it ironic how it is actually having the exact opposite effect? If you want to keep HTML away, you should convert symbols into their symbolic HTML representation, not the other way around! Besides, I thought you wanted people to be able to post HTML.
- Lyle Goldman
< <Q> >
To be perfectly sure, use the Message Preview before posting.
When using escape sequences, DON'T! the characters will be double processed unless you hit BACK and post from the form.
> the characters will be double processed unless you hit BACK and post from the form.
So, do that.
- Lyle Goldman,
Nope! That doesn't work either!
- Lyle Goldman
I'd give my congrats. to Neil Sullivan and David Pirmann for taking all of those pictures of the IRT lines. Although I haven't gotten through all of them, amongst the 20 or so pictures that I have seen were very interesting.
Also, I've noticed that in one of the pictures, the Redbird front rollsign displays '2 (circle, not diamond) Utica Av.'
And then I thought, hmm, 2 doesn't stop at Utica. Let's check the map. Sure enough, it was the terminal for the 4 line.
Well, special gratitude for those pictures!
Railfan Pete.
It used to. One of the big changes in the 80s was the serious rearrangement of the southern IRT terminals. The 2/3/4/5 all used to terminate at Flatbush Ave, and the 2/3/4 all used to terminate at New Lots. Some 5 trains ended at Bowling Green or Atlantic Ave, some 2 and 4 trains terminated at Utica Ave.
And so on.
-Hank
Even now, an occasional 2 (and 5, I think) will run to New Lots or Utica. This is a scheduled service even if it isn't explicitly shown on the maps.
Some rush-hour 5 trains run to (and from) Utica. I'm not sure if any make it all the way to New Lots.
Mark
Because Flatbush Ave. is a 2 track terminal with bumper blocks and no storage area, put-ins can't come out of there. Primarily for the PM rush, a few #2 trains come out of New Lots (Livonia) yard. Their south terminal is New Lots at the end of the AM rush to stage them for PM service.
It was a long day, as my dad and I went to NY via PATH from Newark Penn Sta.
I've finally figured out the situation of the 'green lights on PATH', although I do not know the reason for them.
The moment the train stops, the green lights turn and remain on. Then, once the train hits about 10mph, they shut off. All off-duty trains have these green lights on, and they can only be found on PATH's PA-2,3, and 4's.
1) I want to know what these green lights stand for.
While on my ride to Journal Square, I've noticed a very large storage and maintenance facility area, (no building easily visible) with freight flatbed cars for containers and a freight rail line, chugging with a few CSX locomotives. (I wonder what that line is)
On the flatbed cars, I noticed the wheel pattern. It wasn't the usual two-axle per end of the car. On a set, there were only two axles for connecting the two flatbed cars! That saves a lot of wheels...!
Also, on the way back, I enjoyed the 55mph (or maybe higher) dash from Journal Square to Harrison. I enjoyed it!
I also spotted a storage track with an old building that were 'no longer in service'. The first car had the end interior door removed, and the second car had all of the windows blockaded with silver-painted wooden (?) boards. Two Amtrak trains were also spotted at Harrison. One an excursion train, and the other a long distance train, both headed to New York.
: a-05 )
Railfan Pete.
While on my ride to Journal Square, I've noticed a very large storage and maintenance facility area, (no building easily visible) with freight flatbed cars for containers and a freight rail line, chugging with a few CSX locomotives. (I wonder what that line is)
That is the big CSX/Conrail/NS Meaddows yard.
It may have just been a hallucination caused by the sausage & peppers at Keyspan park, but I saw R-142s #6351-2-3-4-5 on the express track at 69St-Fisk Ave! Locomotive #63 was just west (system south, if you must) of the station, not attached to the cars. Side signs were flashing "NOT IN SERVICE," and it was full of TA employees in orange vests. This was at 11:42 PM.
NB: Before anyone asks, This probably does not mean you will be riding R-142s, R-62As, or anything made after 1964 on the 7 tomorrow morning.
I just saw 63 heading light manhattan bound. they're single tracking from hunts point to the city tonight, so it's extra fun: packed red birds in the middle of the night with no ac.
bring on them r142s, or anything, for that matter.
The 7 fleet will be replaced with 'high-technological' trains. That's what a newspaper article told me, sent by 'harry' dated 'September 2000'. Here, I have some doubts as whether it'll be the R62A's that will be replacing the fleet or the R142's.
(Does anyone have any update on the R143 service?)
I've seen one of the cars, #8180 and haven't heard ANYTHING about them as of yet.
Railfan Pete.
8180 is not on the property yet. Only 8101-8108
No hallucination -- the cars are there for parking brake tests that were conducted during the wee hours this morning and will be done again during the wee hours tomorrow (Sunday) morning.
And no, this does NOT necessarily mean that the cars are going to be assigned to Corona any time soon -- or ever. Tests will also be conducted on the Williamsburg Bridge -- anybody think that means they'll be assigned to the former BMT Eastern Division?
David
As said before the final assignments after all R142 and As are in:
I don't know the number of cars:
1/9: R62-A
2: R142
3: R142
4: R62 and maybe some various redbirds
5: I think it was R62-A and some various redbirds correct me if I'm wrong
6: All R142A
7: All R62
***About the various redbirds something tells me they will still be around even after the order is complete. The best redbirds right now are running strong and can probably go another five years if they REALLY HAVE TO. So I expect the last redbird to go to 2003 as I've said before.
Corrections:
The #3 line will NOT run with the R142 fleet. Its R62A rail cars will remain in service until past 2020.
The #5 line, I don't think will be running with R62's, neither have I seen ANY R62 on the #5 line. Redbirds will be used.
The #7 line, I doubt it will be running with R62's. We'll have to wait and see or ask "A real expert on it. NOT an amateur expert."
The best Redbird car that is in service is #9119. Everyone in SubTalk seems to be ignoring me about this, and also selected W/F cars on the #7 are working in an above average condition.
Railfan Pete.
I've seen R62's on the #5 many times and there's a few photos of R62's on the #5 on this site. So this is just a guess: after the final R142 order is in: #5 will probably have a mix of R62's and R142's, but this is just a guess.
R-62As (not R-62s) have been on the #5 in small numbers for the past few years. Two trains of Pelham R-62As run on the #5 and then are split for One Person Train Operation with 5-car trains on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle.
David
The #5 line, I don't think will be running with R62's, neither have I seen ANY R62 on the #5 line. Redbirds will be used.
The redbirds are being replaced, how are they still going to be using them after all the R142s are delivered?
The best Redbird car that is in service is #9119.
What criteria did you use to determine this? Just becuase the A/C works doesn't count.
Have you ever ridden on the Redbird #9119?
I have mentioned this on my last posting many weeks ago, and people just ignored it.
#9119 criterias met are:
1)Smooth door closures. All in rhythmic speed without slamming or 'clicking'.
2)A/C works!
3)Minimal amount of rusts, paint peelings, and 'scratchiti'.
4)Startups and brakes checked in above average condition. No bumps or 'clicks' or squeaks on brakes or when it starts or stops.
5)Modern electric motor installed in the undercarriage which is used on R46 trains. Can be heard faintly with doors closed.
6)Every characteristic you would want an optimum Redbird train to have!
Any questions?
I last spotted and rode a Redbird (don't recall the type, but it's R26-29) #9119 from Bergen St., Brooklyn to Penn Sta. - 34 St. at 12:40AM.
I guess no one has spotted that outstanding Redbird car yet...
Well, keep riding, folks.
Railfan Pete.
CORRECTION:
1) The (3) Line WILL see R-142 service when the option order arrives and will return to 10-car operation.
2) The (5) Line is currently using two Pelham R-62A and one Cortlandt R-62A Set.
3) The (7) Line WILL be a all R-62A fleet once ALL R-142s including the option order is in. The (3) Line Singles will make the 11th car on the (7) Line.
4) The best redbird is NOT 9119! There is plenty better still cranking out miles and miles of service, here are some numbers 9228-9229, 9300, 9245, just to name a couple.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Thanks for the info. sent you a email
Thanks for justifying, Trevor!
> The (3) Line WILL see R-142 service when the option order arrives and will return to 10-car operation.
Really? Then how will they fit into Lenox Terminal?
- Lyle Goldman
We've already discussed this. The few tracks which cannot hold a nine car train will NO LONGER be used. Put-ins will be from 180th Street. Some 3 trains will start and end their day at 180th Street/Morris Park Avenue.
Lenox Terminal, as in the 148th Street station? The platform is 550 feet long.
David
More than enough to hold a 10-car train of R-142s which is 515 feet total, leaving a nice cushion of 35 feet left over for play!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I wish there were in service at Lenox instead of sitting in Lenox storage yard.
Then why do they only run 9-car #3 trains?
I thought I just explained it. SOME tracks at Lenox Terminal yard cannot hold 10 car trains.
Then why do they only run 9-car #3 trains?
I thought someone reminded me that R62(A)'s run in 5-car pairs. Are the R62's coupled for 4-car sets too? Where is the change-in done?
(which yard?)
: )
Railfan Pete.
How can the 5 run redbirds if they are all retired? And if they plan to run R142s on the 7 {since it is the only model left besides redbirds and R62/A} why'd they send an R62 out there? Also, in terms of the expert thing, I have this from another message posted here this isn't my own info, but I remember what the message said and it said R142s and nothing else on the 3.
I think the 7 will get r142's also with the r62a's. thats why corona yard is going to be fixed by a years or 2. it says this in the MTA site.
Tests will also be conducted on the Williamsburg Bridge -- anybody think that means they'll be assigned to the former BMT Eastern Division?
Oo! I can't wait to hear the prerecorded "Please watch the gap between the car and the platform edge..." :D
Thanks for the explanation!
Well, let's add another set to service. 6506-15 are in service as of Thursday.
6516-25 were doing road simulations this evening.
6616-25 were also road testing sometime ago.
Did I mention that R-142As 7446-55 are road testing as well?
-Stef
What a boon the Unlimited Metrocard is!! It allowed me to do this today:
1. Go to Rockaway on a speeding R-44 "A" train. I never had that experience along Fulton St in the days of the R-40 slants and R-10's on the "A", express service was limited to rush hours only (too early or late to go to the beach). But boy, the ride today reminded me of the days of speeding Lex. Av expresses!!! I got to Beach 90 in no time (even after a transfer to the "S").
2. Got 2 busses (q-35 and B2 )to get me to the 2-Q's Kings Hwy to marvel at the slant and (Q)'s at PM rush hour. Of course, got off at Brighton Beach to see a glimpse of 2 City-bond Q's round that obtuse Brighton Beach curve. Then, walked along the CI Boardwalk.
3. Coming back into the City, I FINALLY rode the "W". It was nothing spectacular until we got onto the South side MannyB. I don't even recall if I rode the "N" over the bridge during that brief spell in 1990 (??). But I did notice that the train was travelling at a faster speed over the bridge than the B D Q's used to on the North side. I did remember that in the days of FULL bridge service (remember that), the N and QB trains did seem to go a little faster than the B and D's did (until the decline of course). And isn't the new decor in the Canal Street station great? However, the narrow southside platform was crowded of course--I just had to mention that I realize just HOW NARROW the Canal BWAY express platforms really are!
And up we went via the express tracks!! At each stop, someone asked "Does this go to Astoria?" They must not see THE SIGNS!! Aaah..memories--until I had another flashback--didn't some rush hour Q trains run via. Bway express (via Tunnel) on occassion during the '90's)?? Or was I imagining that??
4. And wht's with all the slants on the "N"?? Someone mentioned this previously, and I noticed it too, I've NEVER in my life seen a
slant on the "R" or even when it was "RR". Same with the "D" train!!
Tony
There was a time during 1995 (it was another bridge contruction episode) when the [yellow-circle] Q ran express on Broadway thru the tunnel during off-peak hours and weekends.
Rush hour service was more or less normal.
Apart from the Heathrow Airport express (London) in between terminals 1,2,3,and terminal 4 does anyone know of other locations where you can legally ride for free ?
Simon
Swindon UK
If you mean anywhere in the world:
Any Staten Island Railway trip not involving Ball Park or St. George.
SIRT, as Pig mentioned, plus...
PATH, Harrison to Newark (but only in that direction, and only when there's "normal" operations going on)
I think both Seattle and Portland, WA have fareless downtown areas. So does Buffalo, NY on its light rail. St Louis, free downtown Light Rail shuttle at lunch time.
St Louis also has a free ride zone between the two airport stops.
The Downtown Pittsburgh, PA portion of the Port Authority of Allegheny County's light rail "T" system between Gateway Center and Steel Plaza stations is free during its operation. Also, PAT buses serving within that same area give free rides but only up to 7:00pm
-William A. Padron
Yup.....Portland Ore has a fairless sq. plus a new Portland street car has a" free " trolley ride on the weekend in the vintage trolley only,but it takes the same route as the new cars do,the fairless sq in downtown is at all hours....nice.
The C-Train is still free (as far as I know - there was some discussion about changing it several months ago but I don't think it went anywhere) in downtown Calgary.
Certain portions of the MBTA's Green Line trolleys do not demand a fare in certain directions (I recall riding the D for free).
IIRC, there's no fare charged if you board the street-running section of any of the Green branches outbound. I know this is the case on the B and C branches.
Having rode it yesterday, the Mattapan-Ashmont trolley is free outbound from Ashmont to Mattapan, and free inbound unless you get off before the terminal at Ashmont, in which case you pay $0.75. At least that's according to the sign. Since no one got off on my inbound trip, I never got to see the motorman charge anyone anything.
On a side note, I noticed that tokens are $1.00 in Boston. By now, this must be the cheapest base fare in the country. I suspect this is what you get in a liberal state with high taxes, which goes to prove that there are different ways to finance your public transit. In my case, being a tourist and not having to pay income tax to the commonwealth, it benefitted me more than the locals!
If you're willing to count an unofficial free ride, board a crowded LIRR train at Penn Station during evening rush hour and get off at Woodside or Forest Hills. More often than not, the conductors won't get around to you to ask for a ticket.
Because the LIRR makes on-board ticket sales, for a $2 penalty, this strategy is legal.
The first months of the C-1 Bilevels there were not enough collectors to get everyone before Jamaica. I had purchased a 10 trip peak ticket for it, rode the 4:49 to Port Jeff every weekday until it ran out 4 weeks later.
Sure, it's legal, but...
I decided one day to take the LIRR from Hunter's Point to Jamaica for a change of scene and to do a little railfanning. I sat at the front of the MU "Silver Snail" to look out the window. Lo and behold, right before pulling into Jamaica Station, along comes the conductor, who charged me $5.50 (fare + on board purchase penalty) and asked twice if that was all the further I wanted to go. I didn't bring it up, but I saw no ticket booths or vending machines at Hunters Point station. Just a sign about monthly passes. I don't think I should have been charged the penalty.
"Just trying out the commute," I said sheepishly.
"How do you like it so far?" asked the train operator, whose door was open, in a decidedly sarcastic tone.
I then got off and watched a few double-deckers and MUs at the station before taking the 'E' to Union Tpk, then the 'F' out to 179th St. (ugly station, ugly part of town, IMHO) then home to Astoria.
Five fifty for HP to Jamaica! That should be free, or at most $3.00. There were plenty of seats available, so it's not like I was occupying a Long Island-bound fare-payer's seat! Were that the case, the $5.50 would be justified, I suppose.
I decided one day to take the LIRR from Hunter's Point to Jamaica for a change of scene and to do a little railfanning. I sat at the front of the MU "Silver Snail" to look out the window. Lo and behold, right before pulling into Jamaica Station, along comes the conductor, who charged me $5.50 (fare + on board purchase penalty) and asked twice if that was all the further I wanted to go. I didn't bring it up, but I saw no ticket booths or vending machines at Hunters Point station. Just a sign about monthly passes. I don't think I should have been charged the penalty.
You were correct. There are no booths or machines at Hunter's Point.
"179th St. (ugly station, ugly part of town, IMHO"
Walk a little further east and up into the hills. It's very pretty there.
And, if I recall right, there's some great Indian food to be had on that stretch of Hillside Av.
Maybe the station should be called 179-Tandoori Chicken (one of my favorite dishes, esp. with Mango juice and followed by a cheese ball dessert)...
That part of Hillside Ave. looked like New Jersey -- gas stations, strip malls, fast food joints -- very automobile-and-bus-centric, save the out-of-place subway stairwells and globes. Detached houses, yes, but with typical Queens aluminum/vinyl siding, which may be energy-efficient, but has got to be the ugliest architectural "innovation" ever. Most of the houses in my Astoria neighborhood are covered in the stuff. I like to call it the "New Jersey/Queens Style." Uuuuuugly. However, when I have more time, I'll investigate a wider swath of the area by walking around a bit.
Walk up Midland Pkwy into Jamaica Estates; after half a block, it's a different world. Of course, the subway globes would look even more out of place there.
>>> There were plenty of seats available, so it's not like I was occupying a Long Island-bound fare-payer's seat! <<<
No, but as it turned out you were occupying a Jamaica bound fare-payer's seat. No transportation company can ever recoup a fare that is not collected, no matter how many empty seats there are.
Tom
It is the ticket agent's responsibility to collect the fare - so you're right in a practical sense; if they don't get to you, they don't get to you.
Once they ask you for it, however, even if you've already arrived at your stop and are ready to alight, you have to pay.
You can occasionally get on Amtrak in Newark and ride to NY-Penn without the conductor asking for your ticket or money, esp. on crowded trains.
Let's say I get on at a station with no ticket agent (or I'm in a rush and I'm willing to pay the surcharge).
The conductor reaches me as I'm arriving at my stop.
Can he make me miss my stop? If we're about to cross fare zones, will he charge me for the additional fare I'm stuck paying for crossing a zone boundary against my will, not to mention the return fare?
I've never seen a conductor collect fares in or approaching a station.
Aas a practical matter, they're too busy to. I was referring to one's legal obligation.
Well, if that were to happen (being asked for a fare right before your stop), he/she would collect the fare from you, you'd get off the train, and then the train would move on.
As a practical matter it won't happen that way, but think about it: Would you ride in a taxi and not pay the driver?
There were a couple of occasions where a conductor saw me at the beginning of the ride but didn't get to me before my stop because he was too busy; I had the right change, so on my way out of the train at my stop I handed him the correct fare. My self-respect is worth a lot more than $3.75.
The conductor could be in the wrong car, would you run just to catch him/her?
I wouldn't proactively go and pay money for the ride, if I was skipped. In such an event, it is nothing more than the railroad's negligence that caused me not to pay my fare.
"The conductor could be in the wrong car, would you run just to catch him/her?"
Probably not. There are practical limits to everything.
There were a couple of occasions where a conductor saw me at the beginning of the ride but didn't get to me before my stop because he was too busy; I had the right change, so on my way out of the train at my stop I handed him the correct fare. My self-respect is worth a lot more than $3.75.
What in the world does "self-respect" have to do with it?
>>> What in the world does "self-respect" have to do with it? <<<
If you do not know, you need not worry about it.
Tom
I'm afraid we're on different wavelengths.
I'm not a regular LIRR rider. In the past ten years, I've ridden twice: from Penn Station to Woodmere and back to Jamaica.
At Penn Station, I bought a one way ticket to Woodmere. I paid whatever the guy behind the window told me to pay.
On the return trip, the decision to go only as far as Jamaica was a last-minute decision. Unlike on the eastbound trip, there was a wait for the connection at Jamaica. I figured that it wouldn't take much longer to return to Manhattan by subway and that it would probably save a bit of money.
Notice that I had no idea how much it would save. How would I know? The ticket booth at Woodmere was closed, so I didn't even have anyone to ask.
How could I drop the exact change (assuming I even had it) into the conductor's hand if I had no idea what the exact change was?
Why do you assume that anyone who gets off the train without paying is doing so to cheat the LIRR? Maybe he's doing so because the train has arrived at his stop.
Is Kenosha's PCC line free?
And since rail transit wasn't specified, RIPTA buses are free on ozone alert days :)
http://www.subtalklive.com
BE THERE AND BE SQUARE!
http://www.subtalklive.com/
BE THERE AND BE SQUARE
Ok
With the 1 running express today from 34 to Chambers, the 2 and the 3, and now the 5....Wow, today will be intresting! 4 different lines on one track, simply amazing, Thanks MTA!
I know you guys are probably sick of heraing it, but when does the R-143 go into service? I know its still in the ENY barn not too far from where I live but I havent seen it anywhere else on the Eastern Division tracks.
Ok, about an R-68A I saw one day. I was on the Broadway line a little bit before 5 PM. I think I was on a W. So I get on and I notice that one of the side windows didnt have that route destination sign or split ventilation window. It was a full single window. It looked kinda cool and it made the car look roomier. It was car # 5133. Anyone know why that window is the way it is? Kinda unusual to see it like that
Best answer is that the R-143 pilot train will go into passenger service when Car Equipment's leaders and the train's testers think it's ready for that phase of the testing (remember, when they go into service it'll be for a 30-day test). There are several steps to the testing (the R-142/142A testing had 72 steps), of which the 30-day in-service test is the final one.
As to the R-68A window, I haven't seen it. It's possible that this window is supposed to have a sign box, but doesn't for whatever reason. In the 1970s and 1980s, by the way, occasionally a solid window would be substituted for a split window on an R-46.
David
the reason why there wasn't a split ventilation window is because of the fact that the original window got damaged and they ran out of stock on the the original window. so they had to use the sign window because the train has to go into service. you will notice that some R-68's have 68A windows put on them.
Someone stole the rollsign box. The only R68 with R68A window is 2882.
Someone stole the rollsign box.
So do you guys want to see a picture of it? I have 2 of them
I got a picture of 5116 when it was missing a sign box. I think they replaced it though.
One of the car adjacent to 5133 in the set also has a missing sign box, on the same side.
Well, yesterday on Friday, July 27, 2001, the first eight R-143 cars (s/8101 to 8108/n) was still being used in the test track area on the IND Rockaway Line north of Broad Channel. On that day while in the afternoon sun, the train was undergoing a braking stop distance test between its speed runs.
-William A. Padron
You mean the R-143 is been stored somewhere else?? EWWWWW. I go by Broadway Junction every morning hoping to see it. Oh well. Maybe I will be coming home late one night from a club and will spot it, hopefully I will have my Digital Camera on me :)
If everything goes well, th passenger service test should begin around October (so the technicians at ENY told me)
The widows that have signs don't have the openable vent window, so if the box is taken out for any reason, all you have is the single pane of glass. Other cart types have the horizontal divider built into the window frame, so if the box is taken out, you still have the 2 piece window, but the top is not openable. (The Franklin Shuttle (R68's) is like this, with a plate sign in the top part)
I was speaking to the sister of a classmate of mine who had passed away recently and she has had occasion to ride on the "N" (Never) and the "R" (Rarely) trains. She had mentioned that the service isn't frequent enough many times and can be somewhat spotty hence the term the "Never" and the "Rarely". Is appears to be stock in trade amongst the riders of the "N" and "R" trains.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
she probably rides those late at night when the R doesn't run period and the N and W run every 20 minutes.
The R train does run between 36th St. Brooklyn and 95th St. Brooklyn during late nights. During late nights, R trains do not run between 36th St. Brooklyn and 71-Continental Avs.
Railfan Pete.
um since this major construction bit, they have been running from canal stree to continental via 63rd street. i didn't mention anything about original service in bklyn.
I'm not exactly sure when she rides. BTW the "W" is nicknamed the "When".
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Or the "Worthless"...
Dubya ... dubya train ... let's call a hoser what it's worth. :)
Like "Worthless" for the "W" train. I still think that "T" would have been a better designation for that train.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I'll second that.
Gees. i can't believe everybody has problems with the N and the W. either i'm the only one who never has problems with them or i have more than tremendous patience. since the W, crowding has stopped. service is quicker. majority of the people who ride the line woudld give good review, but you know how everyone except me thinks of the MTA. its loaded crap.
You're not the only satified n-r rider.
i'd say 95% of the time it's a good ride. it might not come as often as others, but at least it's rarely ever a cattle-car situation - and if it is, just wait for the next one cuz it'll be right behind it and empty.
Never a cattle-car situation?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Come on! Even the straphangers voted it the line with the "least elbow room".
Do you ride the N between Manhattan and Astoria or Manhattan and Brooklyn?
HEY!!! That rating of least elbow room means nothing... I don't really care about a seat anyway. BIG DEAL... so you stand... is it going to kill you? I actually take the N for most of it's route in Brooklyn everyday for school. I get on at Bay Parkway and get off at Dekalb Ave. I don't get a seat most of the time, but It doesn't matter. And I'm very happy and satisfied with my N train. Sure, it wouldn't hurt to come a little more often, but most of the time, it's sufficient. Don't forget, the point of the subway system is not to server YOU, but the city. You can't expect this train to come as often as an IRT. There's rarely a problem and I love my N train. GO N TRAIN!!!
Ahhh. A Brooklyn rider. Means nothing.
You should have seen the N/W last night. F*ucked again in Queens. As usual.
I seem to have more problems/incidents on the 7 than the N/W. Most of the problems on the N/W occur from confused passengers (usually Queensbound) holding doors. They come frequently and are never over-crowded. The 7 on the other hand is the most packed train in the city, it's noisy as hell and the A/C sucks. I had an added incident today, two guys almost got into a fight when one guy's bag brushed up against another guy. I'd much rather take an N,R, or W train to Queens that that rolling garbage can called the 7 train.
(did I mention there was gum stuck to a strap? never saw that before. only on the 7)
<(did I mention there was gum stuck to a strap? never saw that before. only on the 7)>>>>>>
LOL. That's funny.
I took the N and W trains last night to Astoria to go to George's restaurant and the whole thing was a mess. Bunching of trains always has and always will be the norm in Astoria. There is no way around it. People are stupid, and that's part of the cause.
Did you know that the W does not exceed 22 mph on the express track. Express? I think not.
I won't argue with you on the 7. My feeling is that both the N and the 7 trains are a disaster.
Today I was off, and decided to take the R train from Continental to Steinway to work out at Astoria Sports Complex (I like the pool). I spoke to the conductor, who told me that since this whole N/W thing started, he has NOT BEEN ON TIME ONCE, GOING NORTHBOUND IN THE PM RUSH. This whole service change mess is causing service that is twice as inconsistent as it was before.
"I took the N and W trains last night to Astoria to go to George's restaurant and the whole thing was a mess. Bunching of trains always has and always will be the norm in Astoria. There is no way around it. People are stupid, and that's part of the cause."
It's not only the people, but if you check the schedules, the trains are time to come every 12! MINUTES during fucking RUSH HOUR!!! IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL RAPID TRANSIT?! DAMN! YOU ALL FOOLED ME!!!!
It just doesn't make sense to ME! The N Train should run more often, because it serves a very heavily populated area.
"Did you know that the W does not exceed 22 mph on the express track. Express? I think not."
Nothing about the Astoria line surprises me. NOTHING! I got so tired of the Astoria line, I started taking the Q and walking all the way to Astoria Blvd. It sure does beat waiting on a crowded platform and getting on a crowded train. Especially when some people don't manage their body like I do.
"I won't argue with you on the 7. My feeling is that both the N and the 7 trains are a disaster."
I have to disagree with you --- How is the #7 a disaster? It comes often and not very crowded.
"Today I was off, and decided to take the R train from Continental to Steinway to work out at Astoria Sports Complex (I like the pool). I spoke to the conductor, who told me that since this whole N/W thing started, he has NOT BEEN ON TIME ONCE, GOING NORTHBOUND IN THE PM RUSH. This whole service change mess is causing service that is twice as inconsistent as it was before."
So the W isn't cutting the cheese? I guess I shouldn't be surprise. Maybe it has more to do with bad management, than the W line itself. Or should we blame Peter Valone?
N/W Broadway Lines
So the W isn't cutting the cheese?
I think you meant cutting the mustard. Cutting the cheese means something else entirely!
Such as breaking wind, beefing, etc.
So, I guess he should have said that the 'W' is "cutting the cheese," since he thinks it stinks, apparently. :O)
OH MY GOD! YOU can't be talking about the #7 line??? The number 7 rolls into that station very frequently (Queensboro Plaza). The N doesn't (at least before the presence of the W). The N is extremely crowded (because it hardly comes), and the #7 is fairly crowded because it comes more frequently. Did you ever stand in the QB station on a very cold day waiting the N line? Do that one day. Wait in the dead of winter, and you will no longer post foolishness about the #7 being worse than the N line. The N line won't only frustrate you, but you might end up dead! WAITING FOR THE DAMN!!! TRAIN!!!!!!!!!
N Bwy Line
God, you don't know how many times I stood at QueensBoro waiting for an N train, while counting 5-7 #7 trains before an N came. And this is no exaggeration.
Waiting on an elevated platform on a very cold day can be very tempting sometimes. Especially if the line that serves your area is inadequate.
N/W Bwy Lines
Or it repalces the B (bad) and the W becmoes (worse)
Sorry who I stole it from... but just had to put it in... :)
I nicknamed the 'W' the "Where the hell is it?", or the "Where?" for short. So you have the 'N'ever, the 'R'arely, and the 'W'here the hell is it? As an everyday rider, don't I get nicknaming rights? :O)
"Where the hell" has a good ring to it, but I think I prefer "Worthless", as in "That's my train, the W. It's Worthless."
Daily dubya man here also..
I can't say i understand the 'never & rarely thing. I take either or just about every day, for the last 10 years and have absolutely no problem getting to and from... they could probably use a train or 2 or 3 more during rush hour, but what line couldn't?
You want bad service? try anything to rockaway, anytime.
Yes, the Rockaway line. Only line where midday, weekend, and overnight headways are the same.
Since population densities are considerably lower in Rockaway, the 20 minute headways are perfectly adequate. It's the spur to Lefferts which doesn't get enough service.
that whole area just scares me at this point (service wise). i went out there 2 weekends in a row, and have no intention of ever taking a train back there ever again.
Keep in mind that an airport, racetrack, LIRR terminal (okay maybe two people per train use the subway for the LIRR but still), and a shuttle line meeting at a (reverse-peak) 2S:1A ratio all crowd onto those 20 minute headways.
The Lefferts leg has nothing special.
The Lefferts spur runs in a much more heavily populated area than the Rockaway line does.
I proposed years ago sending both A trains to Mott Ave and Rockaway Park, and extending the C to Lefferts. This increases Lefferts Blvd. service to acceptable levels, no people getting "lost" on the way to Kennedy by riding the wrong A train, and it doubles service to Howard Beach.
I disagree with you here... when I had to go to Lefferts a while back a couple of times... everytime that I needed a train to go to Lefferts, I got it without having to wait long. At most, a 10 minute wait. There are plenty of trains going to Lefferts, and the first one that came usually was a Lefferts, if not, the next one was but then again, that's only my opinion and my experience...
Service to Lefferts runs on 20 minute headways during non-rush hour periods, unacceptable for the area it runs thru. Rockaway line service is identical. During rush hours, Rockaway gets more service with 2 A lines.
There is not a day that goes by without significant delays on the N train during rush-hour.
When I lived in Astoria, I would take the N train to Ditmars Blvd everyday.
Upon arriving at Ditmars during rush-hour, I would walk to the center of the platform, where the only stairs to the street were, where bottlenecking of people ALWAYS occured. At the same time, another N train would enter the station, dumping it's load, so now you had passengers from two N trains squeezing throught the singular exit at Ditmars.
That's just how the N train operates. Train, train-----Long Delay------Train, train---------Long Delay-----Train,--------Long Delay---!
I guess i have an incrediable ability to just about always be in the train-train cycle, and seldomly in the long delay cycle.
There should be more exits though - it's the same deal at every other stop except 36th and 39th. there is always a crowd to get down the steps.
<>
Or you're such a big buff, you don't see the existing problems in the subway. I was like that when I was younger, and riding the train was almost always done for pure enjoyment.
Seriously, when do ride the N train home to Astoria, and what station do you use? I can't imagine how you don't see what nearly every Astoria resident does in terms of N train service.
Well I have a great suggestion to all of you out there who are moaning and groaning about this "N" never garbage. First of all, send some other train to Astoria, like the W. Secondly, send the N back to its original terminal at either 57th Street or Times Square and 42nd Street. Thirdly, turn the N back into the Broadway Express. Fourth, send the N over the Manhattan Bridge. And fifth, tell the TA to leave my Sea Beach alone and restore it to its former self. There, then the problem is solved.
Yeah, you're definitely right...the few times I take the N i'm always shocked at how run-down the stations along the sea beach look. My own west end would probably we like that too, if it weren't elevated, and all they need to do to make it look good is just a new paint coat on the wind walls.
...all they need to do to make it look good is just a new paint coat on the wind walls.
Or get rid of those ugly, corrugated eyesores altogether, please.
You don't like them? I've never ever had a problem with them, They're unobtrusive, easy to make look nice (just paint, as opposed to the tiling etc. that goes on in underground stations). As long as the station has enough space on the ends that's just a railing so you can get a breeze when you need it, I'm happy.
In fact, with most of it just having gotten a new paint job recently (track supports, platform walls and railings, the whole shebang), I put in my vote for the West End as the most attractive line in the city. It's simple, stylish, and it offers you a great view.
M/W is for Mouth-Wateringly nice-looking line
I don't ride the West End much, but the wind screens on the Astoria Line are ugly, I think. They're painted in that off-white color, and block the view of the neighborhood, which isn't all that pretty, but better than looking at a piece of steel. I probably wouldn't feel this way if some parts of the stations on the line didn't have portions which were not "windscreened," because I wouldn't have anything to compare. I'd prefer to see the railings put back. They are mildly decorative, whereas the corrugated steel screens are merely utilitarian and boring. Furthermore, the lightposts and fixtures should be restored for the same reason. The fluorescent "boxes" they have mounted on the posts where there are no windscreens are ugly too.
I heard that the windscreens aren't actually for wind protection but to prevent vandals from throwing things off the platform down onto the sidewalk or climbing onto adjoining rooftops. Whatever the reasoning, it makes the stations look gross. And while we're on the subject, it's too bad they had to board-up the windows on the fare control platforms. Perhaps they could have left them glassless and open as an alternative to the "ghetto" look these panels create.
The West End is the line I have ridden the least. I gotta get down there soon.
I've actually never been on the Astoria line, i should take a trip to see if things are different there. Most of the neighborhoods are pretty fair-looking that the West End travels over/through, though the actual street it runs down (New Utrecht Avenue) is sort of decrepit.
Most of the stations have partial windscreens, covering varying lengths of the middles of each platform, with the ends just having a railing (no ceiling at the ends). (At least thats the case through my neighborhood, things may get slightly different towards Coney Island).
Interestign note about the reason for the windscreens. I guess it makes sense, though I always thought that the way they had them built with the slanted roofs made the stations look like long houses in the sky from outside, and like cute awninged spaces from the inside.
I completely agree about the windows in the mezzanines - A few of the stations look totally injured without them, especially the ones that you can tell from the outside (like Fort Hamilton Pkwy.) at one time had fancy stone and mosaic walls. Most of the West End was repainted though, covering up traces of the windows, and as someone who never rode the subway while they were still not-boarded-up-yet (was i born yet?), it's not too bad a blemish.
Of course, the southern stairs up to the 50th Street station (my local one) happen to be near the dumpsters of a fruit stand, where the pigeons have a communal crap-fest daily...So don't get on the train there, it smells and will ruin your whole impression :)
On many el stations they appear to be replacing the windscreens (in areas that don't have canopy) with a fence. The fence holes are small enough to prevent tossing stuff off, and you still get a view.
In the Rockaways there are platforms with a nice, low railing and no windscreen or fence. Nobody tosses stuff from there (not that there's anything to hit...). Some people sit on the railing, lean back too far and it's a 30' drop.
While you guys are waxing poetic about the West End awnings and the wind screens on the Astoria Line (Sea Beach), why aren't you answering why the damn TA will do nothing to refurbish those decrepit stations on the Brooklyn end of the N line? Those stations get worse each time I see them. Just another example of my line being given short shrift by the MTA.
I actually said a few posts back on this very thread (or a similar one) how terrible it is the way the MTA has let the sea beach stations decay - I mentioned it in connection with how much easier it is to make an elevated station look new (just a new coat of paint) as opposed to a regular station, such as the ones along the sea beach, where construction will be needed.
Astoria and the West End look pretty much the same so you're not missing much. It's still nice to take a little ride though... :) On the west end though... why are there some stations that have the awning and otehrs that don't. I think it's 50 or 55 st that doesn't have the awning. I've ways wondered what people do when it's raining since there's no awning and the station is also elevated. There would be too many umbrellas during rush hour...
Actually, 50th and 55th do have awnings, but they don't cover the entirety of each platform, just the center halves. I know this from personal experience, I use both of those stations regularly, and it's the non-awninged parts that I like best about it. Nice breezes, good views, a real railing you can lean on and watch the pigeons try to mate with each other while falling off the edge of the platform.. (this happened this morning)
LOL, i was tehre this morning... i get on at 79th though... i've been taking the west end a lot recently...
I don't consider myself as "moaning" or "groaning". I am simply detailing life on the subway, and the hardship that people experience on a daily basis.
During my last days in Astoria, I always dreaded the N train, and could always count on it to be delayed.
Oh yes, during certain dayparts, there may 10 trains per hour on a TA timetable pamphlet, which translates to one train every 6 mins. But it NEVER works out that way. Instead, you'll wait 12 mins for a very packed train to arrive, with another train directly behind it. And the same cycle repeats itself over and over throughout rush hour.
LuchAAA, maybe it's only you... cuz i dun see anyone else here complaining about the N train... sorry dude... it just doesn't like u. :P
The N in queens isn't broke, so there is no reason to fix it. perhaps it is in brooklyn, but not on this end. Perhaps they need to send the M or something down the sea beach exp?
"The N in queens isn't broke, so there is no reason to fix it. perhaps it is in brooklyn, but not on this end. Perhaps they need to send the M or something down the sea beach exp?"
I believe, but not sure, the N runs better in Brooklyn than it does in Queens. Particularly because it's not as crowded.
N/W Broadway Lines
And tell the Joe that if anything is going to run express on the Sea Beach line it will not be the M, it will be the Sea Beach-----or I'm going to get my gun.
Fred,
This Sunday, I rode the (Q) over the south side Manny B tracks up Broadway to Times Sq.
At DeKalb Ave an R-40 slant (N) pulled up. I wonder why when this whole thing was thought up why didn't they make the (Q) local go through the tunnel and the (N) via bridge running express up Broadway.
Just like the old days.
Bill"Newkirk"
What I understand, the Q never ran in the tunnel.
N/W Broadway
"What I understand, the Q never ran in the tunnel."
The (QT) did.
Bill "Newkirk"
But not the QB of which the Q was born from? If that is the case, the Q never ran over the bridge.
N/W Broadway Line
According to the 1966 official map's route info (in the maps section on this site), the Q was the Brighton express via bridge during regular hours on weekdays.
I mean the Q (which was once the QB not the QT) always ran over the bridge, thanks for the clarification..
N/W Bwy
"But not the QB of which the Q was born from? If that is the case, the Q never ran over the bridge."
Ahhh !! And everyone is confused with two Qs because of the bridge flip.
Pre-Chrystie St November 1967
(Q) Broadway/Brighton Express via Bridge (weekdays)
(QT) Broadway/Brighton Local via tunnel (weekdays)
(QB) Broadway/Brighton Local via Bridge (weekends, holidays)
There was an (M) train via Nassau St. which was dubbed the "Bankers Special". Also pre-Chrystie St.
Bill "Newkirk"
So... what your telling me is that the QB and the QT were the same trains which lead to the Q? I thought the QB lead to the Q. Please help me resolve some of this confusion?
N/W BWY LINES
"So... what your telling me is that the QB and the QT were the same trains which lead to the Q? I thought the QB lead to the Q. Please help me resolve some of this confusion?"
N/W BWY LINES
No, the (QT) & (QB) locals existed at the same time as the (Q) express. Technically the (QT) & (QB) came first because the D-Types on the Brighton Express had #1 on their front route signs. When the R-32s were introduced, the (Q) designation replaced the #1, which was the old BMT route designation.
The (QT) & (QB) were the same trains except, one train was via tunnel on weekDAYS and the other was via bridge on weekENDS and holidays.
The old (QB) designation was held over after the Chrystie St. fiasco of November 1967 as a part time rush hour service for those who desired a one seat ride up Broadway without changing trains. unfortunately, it was local all the way !
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>>>>>>The old (QB) designation was held over after the Chrystie St. fiasco of November 1967 as a part time rush hour service for those who desired a one seat ride up Broadway without changing trains. unfortunately, it was local all the way
The old QB was express on Broadway, but local in Brooklyn via the Brighton Line.
The post-Chrystie St. QB was, anyway. The pre-Chrystie St. version made all local stops. IIRC the QB was a descendant of the old Theater Special service, since it ran during the late hours and had the Brighton line all to itself.
hmmmmm.
Once one was able to figure out what the letters meant they wouldn't get mixed up. It seems that it was reasonably simple and straightforward.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Three thousand miles away Newkirk and I'm asking myself the same thing.
But your name is Fred, not Annie...:-)
"Perhaps they need to send the M or something down the sea beach exp?"
What a waste of public resources...
N/W Bwy Lines
YEA!! Let's get our N train back!
heheheehe.
N/W Broadway Lines
"Or you're such a big buff, you don't see the existing problems in the subway."
HAHAHAHAHA! Oh that's jolly good. I'd hardly consider myself half the fan(atic) of some.
" I was like that when I was younger, and riding the train was almost always done for pure enjoyment. "
And just how old do you take me for, anyway? =)
""Seriously, when do ride the N train home to Astoria, and what station do you use? I can't imagine how you don't see what nearly every Astoria resident does in terms of N train service. ""
How about i ask the questions here: when did live in astoria?? where did you get off the train? what times did you travel to and from??? and just who are all of these mysterious *other* astoria residents who whine and whine over how absolutely bad the service is? How old are they? do they have jobs? do they have nothing better to do than complain? are they happy? well adjusted adults? parents? teachers? kids? etc etc etc.
As I said in my previous post, I take the N just about every day. Sometimes on weekdays I go as early as 7 AM, other times as late as 10am. i'll take it home at night if an R does come before if (I'm close enough to steinway that i can walk just fine)- that can be anywhere from 4:30 to 6:30 - or if i go meet friends, perhaps 10, 11, 12... 2, 3? 4 am? you name it, i've rode it several hundred times.
I know a few billion people in astoria these days, and take it in the evening to head over to 30th av or ditmars to meet ehm. I ride it sometimes if i do food shopping on 30th av down to 36th av (no good supermarkets around here).
The only time i hear any of my friends complain about the service is when they do stupid, dangerous things like put in a shuttle bus on the weekend (they've been doing that once or twice every summer for awhile now). And I complain louder than they do about that.
Other people i know in this city, who have to ride the A, L, 4 5 or 6, envy that I actually get a seat EVERY DAY and don't get squeezed into a sardeen can. I used to switch to the 6 every day, but I'd much, much rather take the slightly slower trip on the N or R than to be packed in a train that, if it derails, will be a very, very ugly scene.
I don't have a car, and I'm a busy man, thus i use and practically abuse my metrocard on the N line. My motto also happens to be "I have no time for patience" - so if i had to wait ever long, you can damn well bet I'd be one pissed character.... but i rarely if ever have to... thus i can't complain about the service.
These reasons and more are why I relax and ride the N. If you've had difference expierences and want to hate the N to hell, well it's entirely you're right to go ahead and do that. Me, I'm gunna put my feet up, read my books, enjoy the elbow room, and have that many less gray hairs because of it.
argue against me all you want, but don't expect a reply. the above stated are my opinions of the service, and i'm sticking with them until which time they go downhill.
heh heh heh - and that's all the joe's got to say about that =)
Fine. But the straphangers report gives a much more accurate depiction than you do.
"(I'm close enough to steinway that i can walk just fine)- "
Lucky YOU! I'm on the bad side, the side by the East River.
N/W Broadway Lines
"Upon arriving at Ditmars during rush-hour, I would walk to the center of the platform, where the only stairs to the street were, where bottlenecking of people ALWAYS occured."
How backwards the train system is. Why wasn't these exist put on the end of the platforms like the J line? And why wasn't the fair control made larger?
At the same time, another N train would enter the station, dumping it's load, so now you had passengers from two N trains squeezing throught the singular exit at Ditmars."
The same thing occurs at 30th Avenue, Broadway and the 36th Avenue station.
"That's just how the N train operates. Train, train-----Long Delay------Train, train---------Long Delay-----Train,--------Long Delay---!"
Your absolutely right in your assertions LuchAAA.
YES! These two terms definitely applies to the N and R lines. As a rider of the N line, many times you are lucky to get a train every 15 minutes during rush hours. For some reason, these trains get delay very often.
The R is called Rarely because these trains run slightly more frequent than the N line. The N is called Never because it hardly ever comes. In other words, when an N comes into the platform, usually 2 R trains arrived already.
For those living on Queens Blvd, thank god you have a G line! Because if you had to rely on one line (N/R), you will be in a lot of trouble. Both of these lines are very infrequent and very unreliable.
Even when these lines run in unison, your going to wait. So the best thing to do in a situation like this is to plan your day early. In other words, leave yourself at least 30 minutes of spare time so that you are not late for your appointments.
N Broadway Line
I have seen 2 "R" trains arrive before an "N" train arrives in my own experience. The "N" isn't a very dependable train as experience demonstrates.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
i've been seeing a bunch of R-40 slants and R-32 on the N. everytime i go home, i endup riding a R-40 N or R-32 N. are all 68/68A cars gone from that line? please reply
The current N assignment has only four trains of R-68s and no trains of R-68As (though they'll probably be seen there from time to time). There are also ten trains of R-32s and six trains of R-40s.
David
One of the R68A "N" was spotted sleeping north of City Hall today; I believe #5014 was one of the cars in the train. Everything else on the "N" was either R32 or R40.
wayne
Sothere's only 20 trains on the N line? Seems too little. Why are we losing the R68s?
I've seen a lot of R32's on the N a lot lately also. I've been wondering, if anyone is a rail yard worker or know how this system works, they could possibly tell KHI and I about this situation. Although, during that time, I spotted one R68 N train off-duty at 57 St.-7 Av. station on the northbound exp track.
I wonder what it was doing there.
The northbound N at 57/7 was headed to or from the storage location "behind the wall" at lex/63rd. 4 trains can fit there, with the possibility of another two in the 63st/Broadway connector (which they usually like to keep clear).
There are never any more or less R-32s on the N. All of Coney Island's R-32s go to the N, so there will usually be the same number found on the line. Though with the bridge flip, they may be thinning out the number of R-32s kept as spares, thus the apparant increase.
The weekend of the flip, there was an r46 set - very rare. it seemed to last only a few hours though.
On the N? I doubt it.
Actually Chris, once in a very blue moon an R-46 does find its way onto the N line, but like Joe said, it usually only lasts for a day or two. Sort of like the occasional R-32 on the Q, they are used for stopgap measures. I'm working the W this pick, so I didn't see the R-46 on the N, but it does happen from time to time.
the r-46 ran up there last week
I haven't ridden or seen an R46 on the N in 14 years. I still find it hard to believe, and I won't until I actually see it for myself.
That's OK. I don't think I've seen R-46s on the N since 1979 or 1980.
They were common on the N when it ran on Queens Blvd. But after the switch to Astoria, these cars were run on the R line. For a 2 month period in fall 1987, the N to Astoria saw frequent R46's. But not since then have I ever encountered one.
Wow, I'd like to be on a R46 N... and what's stopgap?
I have seen this set before Last year, going to school everyday taking the (R)arely
Well I don't mind at all. It's nice the N has got back railfan windows on a majority of it's fleet.
What the hell is an R-40 Aero???
Maybe "areo" is short for "aerodynamic," and in some language, "areo" mean "slant." Either that or the R40 Aero is a hot new fighter jet model.
Spelling corrections:
Maybe "areo" is short for "aerodynamic," and in some language, "aero" means "slant." Either that or the R40 Aero is a hot new fighter jet model.
There was one R46 on the N on Tuesday around 5:00 PM because of a problem in service. It was an emergency put-in around Canal Street...Only the Front roll sign was changed to the N (which is strikingly similar to the R42 sign for the N)...all other signs had an R, including the sign for the last car....there was a delay in Astoria.
>Only the Front roll sign was changed to the N (which is strikingly similar to the R42 sign for the N)
They use the same exact sign box. For that reason, J, L, M and Z are on the R-44/46 front
Just bought Train Sim, and really am enjoying it, especially Acela portion of the program. Two questions:
1- Are there any update patches available yet? My computer seems to be having a problem with ending the program. I keep getting those "failure at module errors" with a blue screen when I end the program.
2- Why no Mass Transit, ie Subway Lines? Any plans to add this in later versions?
Overall, a thumbs-up on this program.
There are routes in progress, one mass transit, the Brighton Line is in progress by fellow poster Jorge I believe...No patch yet...
go to this link and it shows pics of the route i'm working on. More new pics will come soon.
http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite/brightonlinepics.msnw
I run MS Train Sim on Windows 2000, and when i end the program, or even just the current simulation, I get no blue screen, but the computer just automatically reboots! I hate it! I hope it's a documented problem and Microcrap is working on a solution.
Geez ... if I could get Microcrap trainwreck to have gotten that far on ANY of our machines, I woulda lived with THAT ... closest I ever got to it running on any machine was making my selections, clicking the start and watching it bomb ... got the Juku filmclip, the vertigo-inducing background with the selections, then BLAM ... right into the bumping block, through the terminal, left with a smiling FL-9 in the lobby with Richard Pryor driving off in a yellow sports car.
<< left with a smiling FL-9 in the lobby with Richard Pryor driving off in a yellow sports car. >>
FL-9's in Chicago? IIRC, that was an E-9. Good movie!
It was actually cardboard, but still a funny movie. HELLOOOooo, Chicago! :)
I have a year-old eMachines PC from Best Buy - the economy model, really - and I have no problems at all running MS Train Simulator. It was a bit choppy at first, so I bought a 128MB RAM upgrade at Staples for $20. I still can't operate at the highest graphics settings, but the trains just cruise along now. All in all, I'm happy with it.
Jim D. (RailBus)
That MIGHT be the problem then ... all of ours here are standardized at 64 megs ... then again, Billy has an awful habit of expecting that everybody else has as much money as he does ... hey! I've got it! Let's send him a BILL! :)
I remember when MS said FS2K would run on 64K of RAM. Yeah, right! I run 256 (700 MHz P3)and the software runs like a charm. I'll be buying TS in a week or so and expect no problems...at least, RAM-wise.
is one of the largest stations I have ever been in. I went to NY with my dad last afternoon and saw some wall tile columns tiled with a beige frame and in the middle was different kinds of ships. One looked just like the Titanic.
A lot of services were found here also:
1) 8th Av. Lines - A,C
2) Lexington Av. Exp. - 4,5
3) Broadway-Nassau St. lines - J,M,Z
4) 7th Av. Exp. - 2,3
1) On the IND 8th Av. line - the wall tile is a black border with a faded blue color. The I-beams are faded blue and there is no name tablet, but a row of continuous 'Bway', 'Nassau' every few feet.
The station name on the I-beam reads 'Broadway-Nassau'.
Now I travel to the IRT 7th Av. Line - and I see a very old mosaic tile band for the length of the platform with a nicely designed 'F' every 7-10 feet. The I-beams are (I forgot the color), and the station name on the I-beams read 'Fulton St.'
I don't think there is anything for the Lexington Av. Exp. 4,5 lines, and I haven't been at the platforms of the Nassau St. subway (J,M,Z)
Can anyone with enough historical documents and background tell me why the designs are different? and event the station name is different?
If anyone can point me with some helpful advice or information, please let me know!
Railfan Pete.
tell me why the designs are different? and event the station name is different?
It's pretty simple--all of the stations were built by different companies (except the IRT stations) at different times and were connected only after unification. When they were built, they were completely different stations in the same general area.
Dan
To me, Broadway/Nassau/Fulton is the Grand Central of Lower Manhattan. It doesn't get the respect it deserves.
I've never explorered that station. I'm gonna have to go down there this week.
The 4 stations comprising Broadway Nassau/Fulton St. were once 4 seperate stations, combined later after the city took over. Only the A/C and J/M/Z stations were planned together.
>>The 4 stations comprising Broadway Nassau/Fulton street were once 4 seprate stations,combined later after the city took over.Only the A/C and J/M/Z stations were planned together<<
If the J/M/Z/A/C stations were planned together then explain why the 4/5 and A/C are so close together.
Just because they are located closely doesn't mean they were planned together. The 4/5/6 station at Fulton St. opened in 1905. The Broadway Nassau A/C station opened 28 years later.
Fulton St. on the Nassau BMT shares a mezzanine with the A/C, as they were constructed at about the same time. It's also why Fulton St (and Broad St.) looked like an IND station until they were rehabbed 6 years ago.
The Broadway-Nassau mezzanine artwork (with the ships) was installed recently when that part of the station was renovated with new floors, wall tiles, and lighting. I think there was a NY Times article on it some months ago about the art, saying they were taken from the interior of a restaurant that no longer exists.
The J/M/Z tilework at Fulton St look similar to Broad St.
The 4/5 station has white on blue "Fulton St" name mosaics on both platforms, as well as small "F" reliefs. The downtown platform has reliefs showing Fulton's steamboat.
The station-by-station guides on this site have blurbs and photos of each section of this station complex.
And the four stations were opened in different years too:
1) Fulton Street (Broadway) 1907 - design by Heins & LaFarge
2) Fulton Street (William St) 1918 - design by Squire J. Vickers
3) Fulton Street (Nassau) 1931 - Independent design originally, done over in 1996 in the original BMT Grecian style
4) Broadway-Nassau Around 1935 - Independent design
wayne
When I look out the railfan window of the 7 line and arrive at 42nd St. - Times Square, I see the traffic signals right in front of us:
'red light on top of red light'.
Then I see down the distance of the track and see another red signal!
Is anyone kind enough to tell me what that track was/is used for and how they put a traffic signal down the track where the 7 train is not allowed to travel into?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
The 7 or the Flushing line was planned to go all the way out west to 12th Ave, so was the L line I think and the Canal St bridge tracks were to go out there as well.
Which is of help in constructing a new extension of either of these lines.
Before anyone brings thus up again, I will confirm an earlier report. The #7 line is sufficently low enough that it can dive under the lower level of the 8th Ave. IND station. It will have to drop some, but not a full "level" to do so. This has been confirmed by a conversation I had very recently with a senior project manager within NYCT, who has the responsibility to know about this situation. The "story" that the IND lower level was built to preclude the IRT's westward extension is hogwash.
Then what logical reason can be given for it's existance? I can't believe it was built for no good reason.
It was once used, as I recall, for express service to Aquaduct Race Track, and it had its own "extra fare."
Elias
When the IND was built the Aqueduct was an LIRR station. What was its original purpose?
I doesn't appear to be totally pointless. For example, if it were still usable:
No more missing your bus at the PA because the goddam C (if on the E) or E (if on the C) is cutting in front.
It is very easy for E trains to get to the 8th ave express. The direct track before the lower level requires a slow speed, plus waiting A trains would be stopped between stations. The track south of the lower level is straight rail and would allow higher speeds, plus A trains can chill in the station at 42 while the E cut in front.
They probably had ideas of terminating trains there. Remember, the IND was never finished.
-Hank
"The "story" that the IND lower level was built to preclude the IRT's westward extension is hogwash."
This is good. New York City *needs* clean hogs.
Elias
Actually, since the old slaughterhouse area was on the East Side where the U.N. is now located, the hogwash for the No. 7 train would have been at the opposite end of its route in Manhattan :-)
NO!
All of the hogwash comes through the drain of my shower. :-)
I believe that the track west of Times Square exists to permit trains to enter Times Square at a higher speed. This is necessary due to the short headways on the Flushing line. If the blocks were at the end of the platform, trains would need to enter much more slowly, since failure to stop on the marker would be a significantly more serious problem. Check out the 42nd Street Shuttle in the same station complex for a demonstration.
The tracks don't go too much farther west of the station.
And they're not called traffic signals.
Mark
You may be right in one respect, but it was built there primarilly for a planned extension to 8th-12th Aves to end somewhere around there, the highlight being a connection to the 8th Ave line which at the time didn't have a physical connection with Times Sq.
???
Why would putting a bumper block prevent trains from entering in Times Square fast? On every 7 train that I have ridden on, the engineer stops the train before the 'marker???' that you're talking about.
And also, 50% of the time, the signals are 'yellow over green' (or vice versa if mistaken), which means that the Manhattan bound trains would have to change tracks to enter the station, which puts down the speed automatically.
Have you ever gone past the tracks at 42nd St. Times Square 7 platform?
If they're not traffic signals, what are they?
Railfan Pete.
>>> Why would putting a bumper block prevent trains from entering in Times Square fast? On every 7 train that I have ridden on, the engineer stops the train before the 'marker???' that you're talking about <<<
Next time you ride the 7 to Flushing, check out the speed the train is moving as it enters Main Street which does have bumper blocks at the end of the station. If a train is entering the Times Square station at 30 mph, and for some reason the T/O fails to apply the brakes it is much more preferable to have the red signal at the end of the station trip a BIE and have sufficient room for the train to decelerate to a stop before coming to a bumper block (or a laid up train).
Tom
The one at the very end would be a marker signal, which marks the end of signal control (and in this case, the end of the track). It has two fixed reds that cannot be changed. The one before it is probably a regular homeball, and if any type of equipment (work train, etc) had to go back there, it would be cleared from the tower, or at least a call-on given. (Pull the lever to make the stop arm go down, then the rules are proceed with restricted speed and extreme caution.)
The one at the very end would be a marker signal, which marks the end of signal control (and in this case, the end of the track). It has two fixed reds that cannot be changed.
So I guess the extension is off-limits. Does anyone know how far the tracks go past 42nd St. on the Flushing platform? I know it was supposed to be extended to 12 Av.
Railfan Pete.
About 700' past the end of the Times Square platform, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most here believe that the #7 trailing tracks go to the wall of the lower level of the 8th Ave line. If not exactly to the wall, then pritty darn close to it.
Mr t__:^)
Most here believe that the #7 trailing tracks go to the wall of the lower level of the 8th Ave line. If not exactly to the wall, then pritty darn close to it.
Which is about 700'.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At the Virginia end of the Yellow Line in DC, there are similar tracks beyond the end of the line, w/o third rail. They look like a safety measure- in case a train overshoots the terminal station, it won't hit a hard bumper right away- it will lose power first.
When I got a look at the tracks at the end of Times Square, I thought it might be similar. You can also notice that the tile work at the far end of the station is different- defintely looks to have been added later, so maybe it was an extension after all......
To me, it seems common practice to put a red signal right in front of a bumper block, even if it's on a tail track that trains aren't allowed to enter. MARTA has them on all their tail tracks at the bumper block, hundreds of feet away from the platform, even though trains aren't allowed to travel past the platform.
Don't they use those tail tracks for train storage? If so, then that is why there is a signal way down there.
When I was little I thought those tracks led to a loop, like South Ferry or City Hall.
I know the 8th Ave line passes right by the end of the Flushing Line tracks, but when are they going to extend that line? I know there was some talk about this. Anyone??
The plans are up in the air I suppose. The lower level of the 42 & 8 Sta. is in the way of the Flushing line. The lower level has been taken out of service.
No No No. That is another false rumor.
The lower level of 8th Ave. is not in the way. See my post later in this thread.
If construction were to stay on the same level it would be. I couldn't imagine both levels being at exactly the same depth. That is cool that if they do construction that it would be able to dive under 8th ave. Just have to lower the approach to fit.
Wait I thought the Lower Level of the 42nd St station was in the way of the end of the Flushing line. Are you sure its not??
I was answering Mr. Glickman's response to which he stated that it is possible for the #7 to dive under the lower level of 42 st. station and the 8th ave. line.
It was said earlier in the thread that the Flushing tracks have to dip just a bit {less than 20 feet I think} to make a smooth cross-under and connection.
That's correct -- reported to me recently by a senior manager in NYCTA in a position to know.
FYI...
Not that Joe Brennan's fabulous abandoned stations list should be considered the final authority on this, but, if what you say is correct, then he has it wrong as well.
He clearly states in his notes on the 8th AVe/42 ST LL platform that its location prohibits extension of the 7 to the west side.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Well, the main platforms at Eighth Ave. on the A/C/E are two levels below ground (the mezzanine being one level below) and the unused express track is one level below that, or three levels below ground.
Over at Times Square, the BMT N/Q/R/W track are two levels below ground, with the mez and the shuttle being one level beneath the surface. For the No. 7 train to be the same level at the abandoned Eighth Ave. track, it would have to be just one level below the BMT and it's not, it's at least two levels down from there, because the Flushing Line has its own mezzanine at Times Square.
Going by that, it's safe to say so long as the No. 7 train stayed at the same level as at Times Square, it could be extended westaward to the Javits Center without running into the lower level track at Eighth Ave.
Now, running the 7 past Ninth Ave. and getting it under the Lincoln Tunnel portals, that's another story...
Well, according to nycsubway.org
Some relative depths of stations in the Times Square complex are as follows, +/- 10 feet.
7th Ave./West Side IRT, 40 feet below street
Flushing/#7 IRT, 60 feet below street
Broadway BMT, 50 feet below street
Shuttle, 20 feet below street
8th Ave. IND, 30 feet below street
So considering that the lower level track at 8th Ave is no more than 20 feet down from the main station, {50 feet below surface} the Flushing line at 60 feet can get under without a problem, if it had to go down more it would only be a couple of feet for whatever reason.
Those are the measurements I took.
But as an independent "measure," I asked the question to a senior engineering executive of NYCTA who is in a position to know. And he affirmed it can be done with a small dip in depth.
Or the 7 could (I doubt) run on the High line.
There was a piece in The New Yorker back in May about how some West Side environmental activists and community leaders in the Chelsea area want to have the High Line designated as a "rails to trails" park and developed for public use, while some business people and FRA officials are waiting to see it torn down. Given both sides in this case, I doubt the MTA would have the huevos to walk in to the middle of that and try and claim the High Line could best be used for the No. 7 train (though if they ever develop the Hudson River Park, it would be a great way to provide easy public access and could be used for a new limited stop el connection down West Street to the WTC).
Now, running the 7 past Ninth Ave. and getting it under the Lincoln Tunnel portals, that's another story...
For what it's worth, the Holland Tunnel was built crossing over the H&M (now PATH) Caisson #3, with the westbound Holland Tunnel directly over it - see the contract drawings (Contract #6, drawing #1 and #6). By "directly", I mean "as close as possible without touching" - the top of the H&M is at elevation 271.16 and the bottom of the Holland Tunnel is at elev. 271.63.
Therefore, it should be possible to do the same using modern equipment and technology for the #7/Lincoln Tunnel intersection, particularly as the clearance between them would likely be greater.
The line extension will occur before the 2012 Olympics or not at all. The Olympics is the major motivator, we get our stadium built on the west side in time, they will be held here. Otherwise, the eternal flame goes elsewhere.
Neither tail track is long enough to contain a train set, and if it were, trains would not be able to enter at full speed so as to prevent a collision. Those tunnels were built for trolley car usage from Queens.
Remember, the Steinway tubes were originally for trolleys. They came up into a shorter version of Grand Central and then looped to the other side to go back to Queens. Fifth ave. and Times Square didn't exist yet. The loop was eliminated and partially sealed and the tunnel extended to Times Sq. when the subway came and took over for the trolleys. Those tail tracks were a start for something more but never happened...yet (hopefully.)
I thought the trolleys used the track switch before 42nd St. - Grand Central which are no longer in use anymore.
Railfan Pete.
Do you mean First ave. interlocking in the tube? I am not sure it was there at that time. Check out the wonderful article on this site entitled Steinway Tubes for information.
I was over at the Kawasaki Plant in Yonkers, I noticed that some of the R-142A's have blue tarp covering them.My question is are these the "shells" being delivered to Kawasaki, to have the wiring done and the trucks put on, or are these trains are ready to be delivered to Unionport via 239th?I peeked through the windows, saw some of the 7500's series being worked on.Are they going to start work on the R-143's?I didnt see any over there as of yet.You can park over there and look down from the parking lot and actually watch them do the wiring of the R-142A's and get a great view of the Hudson River and the Palisades clifts.For a early Saturday morning there was a lot of activity going on there. I was over there this morning another railfan was watching along aside of me.I wonder was he a subtalker or just a railfan person like myself.So if you in Yonkers you should check it out its a nice way to spend the morning, watching the workers build the R-142A's.
I'm wiulling to bet that if you guys get together with people at ERA, you could persuade Kawasaki to grant you a plant tour...
I wouldn't bet on it...if we could get in there, we would have gotten in there already.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Oh well, just a thought.
Have you considered a trip to Bombardier, in Quebec? I have always found them to be greatly interested in people who show interest and enthusiasm about their products...
The New York Division wouldn't do a Quebec trip because of the distance. We've run very few overnight trips -- they aren't moneymakers for us (and remember, we're a non-profit organization, but we have to operate within our means, and dues do not come close to covering the cost of running the club). Perhaps the national ERA organization would consider doing it.
Our understanding is that Bombardier doesn't want people taking pictures of its equipment (while the equipment is under Bombardier's control, at least) because some of the componentry is proprietary. If that's not correct, then somebody please let me know because we'd LOVE to tour Airtrain before it opens...
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I've done several tours of the Yonkers Kawasaki Plant, just by fanning my NJ Transit ID and we don't even have an order with Kawasaki currently.
Anything is possible if you put your mind to it, hmmmm Sounds like TransiTALK maybe doing another trip soon!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
There is a difference between an individual (a transit agency employee or otherwise) going up to a guard and asking to be let in (or even writing a letter to plant management), and asking for an official tour (which would have to be guided) for dozens of people, most of whom will be toting camera/video equipment and are not likely to be willing to divulge their employment situations to plant management.
We have asked for tours of facilities like the Yonkers plant in the past. Usually, the response is either "no" or "OK, but no pictures." Given that many of the people who go on our tours like to take pictures (and that is their main reason for going), we didn't see the point of taking them to a place where they would not be permitted to take pictures.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
But you can describe what you see during the tour and provide a journal of the visit. It would be nice if cameras were allowed, but not accepting Kawasaki's hospitality because of a "no camera" policy is, well, let's just say I wouldn't have refused. Better than not going inside at all, or skulking around to get an errant shot here and there...
We'd much rather our participants be able to take pictures, since ours is such a visual hobby (except in England, of course, where "trainspotting" is all the rage). However, I'm sure I could get my fellow Board members to consider operating a trip to a facility where photography is not permitted if I could show that there is a groundswell of support for such a trip.
What do you all think? Would you go on a trip to, say, a subway car manufacturing plant, if you would not be permitted to take pictures, videos, etc.?
(Of course, I'm not guaranteeing that either I CAN get such a trip approved by the Board, or that if I do, we can get whomever we request a tour from to give us one.)
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I couldn't take photos when I went, BUT i'ts for the learning expirience, photos aren't everything. It's what your brain retains that is. To be perfectly honest, to turn down a trip do to the "no photo rule" is quite shallow to those that may want to take the trip for the learning expierence!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
As I said in response to "RonFromBayside"'s post, if enough people express an interest in going to a facility even though photography won't be allowed, I'm willing to bring it to the Board's attention.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
What do you all think? Would you go on a trip to, say, a subway car manufacturing plant, if you would not be permitted to take pictures, videos, etc.?
I'd be all for it. One way to think about such a trip is to compare it to visiting, say, the Metropolitan Musuem. You can't take pictures there either, but it's still fun to visit :-)
That's three, then...Trevor, Peter, and Ron...
Keep 'em coming!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Count Bill "Newkirk" in. Maybe it would be a relief not toting that heavy camera bag around for a change.
Bill "Newkirk"
So noted!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Sure why not! COUNT ME IN!@#
And so we have six...
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Actually, seven (aren't you going, too, Dave?)
I wasn't counting myself. Obviously someone from NYD would have to go to run the trip for the club.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Dave .. I'd go, too. Now you're at eight ....
Also, could you contact me privately (mark_train@hotmail.com) - I have a question to ask you.
--Mark
Count Me In
Will do.
I talked the matter over with our Chairman, Bill Erland, and the head of our Trip Committee, Glenn Smith, today. They're considering the question of whether enough people would be willing to attend a tour, knowing in advance that photography would not be allowed, to be worth the effort of putting the tour together (both financially for the club and in the expense of time). I'll keep everyone apprised...
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Offtopic, but... You can take pictures at the Metropolitan (and most other museums), some special exhibits excluded. The rule, as in the subway, is no flash and no tripods or other equipment in the way of the other visitors.
Yes, I would most definitely go on such a trip. I would learn a hell of a lot, and it would help make sense out of ideas I exchange with TA brass and with Subtalkers.
I didn't take any pictures when I toured the Boeing plant in Everett, Washington. But I learned a lot there too.
Bring it on!
Would definetely go on a trip to the Kawasaki Plant pictures or not.
I think ERA should take steps to set up this trip...
So far, five people ("RonInBayside", Peter Rosa, "D4000Cruiser", "Bill Newkirk", and "Subscott" have indicated that they would go. Frankly, that isn't enough (and not that it matters, but as far as I am aware, of the people who said they'd go, only Bill is an ERA member and would get the trip notice -- though I'd post it here as well). I'll give it another week or so for people to reply, but if there aren't very many responses I'll have to assume that not enough people are willing to go to make it worth bringing to the Board.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Wimp!
Just kidding. Seriously, I hope others come forward as well. It would be a lot of fun.
FYI I am a member of the ERA NY Divission. Have went on many trips the last being the Hudson-Bergen light rail excursion. Just mailed my check for the 207th Street Shop Tour on 9/8/01.
Glad to hear it! (Couldn't tell from the handle.) By the way, it's likely (though we won't guarantee it) that R-142s will be at the shop for corrective work. It would almost be like going to the Bombardier factory. Unless we're asked not to take pictures of the cars for some reason, we're expecting that photography will be allowed at the shop (it's been allowed on our past tours). I've sent David Pirmann the details so the trip can be posted on the "upcoming events" page. It's on the same day as the Hoboken Festival, but it's in the morning, so people can do both if they want.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Past tours? So you have gone to the Kawasaki plant before! I thought you said you didn't.
We didn't. I was referring to 207th Street.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
It's also the same day as the Fall trolley Extravaganza in King of Prussia, PA, if memory serves me right.
--Mark
I'd definitely go, photos or not. You might want to post an e-mail address (even set up a Hotmail or Yahoo account for the express purpose) for responses, to keep track of who's interested and avoid lots of "Me too!" posts on the board.
Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, I'm using old-fashioned pen and paper to keep track of the responses.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Do you have to be a memeber of the ERA to join this tour?
No, if there is a tour it will be open to everyone (the 207th Street Shop Tour on September 8 is open to everyone). There will be a fee, to be determined by the Board (for 207th Street, it's $10).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I assume this will be listed on the Upcoming Events page?
I sent it to David Pirmann several days ago using the Feedback Page.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thanks for the info David.
-Paul
BTW - Do you have a website where I can learn more about your organization. Thxz.
Unfortunately, we don't have a website. The issue comes up at every New York Division Board meeting. What it boils down to is, not everybody on the Board has the knowhow to administer an Internet site or even access to a computer at home, and those of us who do (mostly me), don't have the time. We have a commitment for server space, but nobody willing and able to commit the energy to design a site and maintain it. Occasionally, someone comes to us with a proposal, we approve it, and then...nothing.
I've asked before on this Board, but I'll ask again...is anyone out there interested in starting AND MAINTAINING a website for ERA and/or the New York Division? Responses can come as postings on this thread and/or as e-mails to ERA's address: era@juno.com.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
David
I propose that the New York Division sponsor this web site by providing material from their vast library and $$ for new servers in exchange for providing subtalker membership information on the NY Division.
The average age of the membership in the NY Division is high (35+?). The division needs an influx of younger members to keep it going pass the year 2010.
In my association with the NY Division (including a short term position with the Entertainment Committee in 1972), there's never been a member status such as total membership, new members, family members, members lost, etc. I know how much is in the bank each year but how about the state of the membership (that helped keep the last of the ERA division system going.
The board of elders should consider the sponsorship on NYSUBWAY.ORG (do they know what's here?)
ERA member 3620
Thanks...food for thought.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Phil,
I agree 100% especially about the increasing age of the membership and I would suspect the average age is way more than 35.
They should in fact be aware of this site because I was one of the people who made a web site presentation to the NY Division board back in maybe 1998? At the time they were only interested in posting a membership application. I was hoping to get permission to start digitizing their vast archive of past newsletters, etc. but the main argument against that was "the old newsletters are a profit source for us". (On the other hand, they don't publish an index of what's available so the only people really making profits off old ERA newsletters are the guys you see at train shows.)
But as for sponsorship, well... I'd love to be able to host some of their old articles and things but I think what's really going on is that nycsubway.org and the posters to the Talks are really in essense a competing organization (with a lot of overlap of course). Maybe I should just start charging dues to access the web site. :-)
-Dave
It takes a while for e-commerce to catch on, that people can order things on a web site. The younger people would buy off the web and older rather go to a store.
I can see this is happening with this site and the NY Division. The older transitfan rather go to the meetings and exchange gossip, while the younger transitfan can sit in front of their PC and do it from their home, work, or school. The beauty of NYCSUBWAY it that it's 24/7 and anywhere in the world, whereas the NY Division is only third Friday 7PM till 10PM at a fixed location in lower Manhattan. New materials are added to kept this site fresh and in some months more images are added than a typical slide show.
You are right that this site lacks some historical information that Linder and Son is providing the the NY Division. Some on the newer fans never knew the name of certain subway line (such as "The Lex").
The only place I can't get to read NYCSUBWAY.ORG and have to settle for the NY Division Bullentin is a small room fitted with running water, and I'm sitting down.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
The only place I can't get to read NYCSUBWAY.ORG and have to settle for the NY Division Bullentin is a small room fitted with running water, and I'm sitting down.
Me too, except I don't have the NY Division Bulletin when I'm in the kitchen.
Kitchen's that small, eh?
The Master Kitchen isn't, but the other kitchen is.
Hi,
I just want to correct my post on one point, the board was objecting to posting the *current* issue of the newsletter, not older issues.
My faulty memory.
-Dave
Hello David,
I'm a currently proposing to D-BOM (Design, Build, Operate and Maintain) a ERA website, I would need stuff like Content & Photos (for scanning and such). Designing should be simple and not a big issue.
e-mail me tlogan@transitalk.com, to let me know if the ERA is interested in my services!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trevor would be the man to do it. He has my vote.
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW IF the ERA turns down Trevors offer then, the organization deserves to die, IMHO.
Peace,
ANDEE
"BTW IF the ERA turns down Trevors offer then, the organization deserves to die, IMHO.
Peace,
ANDEE"
Gee, with an opinion like that, how can we go wrong? {g}
Seriously, I'll be talking with Trevor about it.
David Ross
Diretor
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
"BTW IF the ERA turns down Trevors offer then, the organization deserves to die, IMHO."
I don't think any educational transit related organization should die because of not accepting an offer for a website.
Dave Ross has to go back to the ERA board and sell the idea to them. Hpefully they will agree and a long awaited website will become reality. Then other similar organizations without website will follow suit.
Bill "Newkirk"
ERA Member #5226
I'll cast a second vote for Trevor. A good man with a pasion for mass transit ... have seen & talked with him at a ERA meeting or two also.
Mr t__:^)
ERA member 3620
They looked deep within your soul and gave you a number based on the order in which you joined.
I didn't ask no guard, I had to call, make contacts and go through the proper channels like I do when I visit 95% of the places I do!
Guards have no say in a facility visit!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Where is the 125 street station going t be for the 2nd avenue line.Original plans are for 125th street to be at 2nd avenue,but new plans say otherwise.In th new plans 125th street is between Park and Lexington.Some people think its not going to happen because of the Metro north station and the fact that the subway station is 2 levels deep.Even if it was possible for it to be elevated the station would be too high for conections to te subway.Plus where are they going to put the portal(God I'm all over the place).Other people say to build under the subway station(which would fuck up the architecture).
I just think te IRT is 50 years overdue for a new eastside subway line instead of waiting for a new subway tunnel for some damn line thatsnever going to come.
About a year ago I saw the results of the MESA study, which at the time were available in the reference room of the Fordham library. The new 125th Street station was shown oriented in a north-south direction, under the east side of Lexington Avenue beyond the building line (i.e., under the Pathmark supermarket). The station would be of a two-track, island-platform design. It would be quite deep, actually deeper than the lower-level of the existing IRT station, but not directly beneath it - as mentioned above, it would be offset somewhat to the east.
The portals: I assume you mean the entrances. Keep in mind that these weren't the final engineering drawings. I think the diagram showed the existing IRT entrances used for access, but I would guess that additional escalators or elevators would be needed for direct access to the new platform.
Metro-North access? That would be great, but I didn't see any provision for it. I think further thought has to be given to that.
The 1970s plan had a station under 2nd Avenue between 120th and 123rd Street, right next to Taino Towers.
A deep 125th St platform for 2nd Av subway use would require escalators and an elevator shaft to connect it to the Lex-125 station, at minimum. However, since Lex-125 is already ADA-compliant, then presumably nothing more would have to be done save for adding signs to direct riders to the new service.
Of course, if the platform is going to be to the east, then MTA could consider adding an entrance, say, on 3rd Avenue which would give passengers access to both 2nd Av and Lexington services.
I say this without actually seeing diagrams, so please take my comments in a general sense.
I suppose a passageway under 125th to 3rd Ave. would be good, as well as another one over to Park to connect with Metro-North. The MTA seems to be getting back to that concept after earlier closing passages for security reasons (e.g., 6th Avenue from 35th to 40th Streets). They now seem to want one under 53rd to connect the 2nd Avenue line to the E and F (or will it be the V then?) and under 42nd to connect with the 7. Back in the 1970s they weren't much interested in such "crosstown" transfers.
New station construction since the 1970's has emphasized good visibility, elimination of "blind alleys" and improved safety. This will reduce the potential problems caused by additional exits, in contrast to older IND stations.
The MTA realizes that the 2nd Ave line will be pretty inconvenient without transfers to the crosstown lines. Hopefully it'll also realize there should be a direct connection at 125 with MetroNorth -- best accomplished if the 125 St. terminus is situated East-West, on 125 St. between Park and Lex.
That would be convenient.
If I remember correctly, though, the current plan is to have a 2nd Av train end up parallel to the Lex trains in the 125 St terminal.
Still, that can change - there's plenty of time to adjust that alignment, since the first built segment will end up at 96 St.
I wonder: Assuming they get that far, can MTA start running a 2nd Av subway service from a temporary 96 St terminal while the 125-96 section gets built?
Would it be worthwhile? I think there would be three stations, or at most four, in that segment. Would they run a shuttle, or perhaps introduce a Broadway service - e.g. extend the Q train to 2nd/96th via 63rd St tunnel, while the F continued running to Queens?
Yes, there will be crossovers allowing 86th Street (not 96th) to be the initial terminal; the MESA study is quite explicit about that. I'm guessing that the next segment will be to 106th Street - there will be about ten blocks of existing tunnel above there, providing plenty of space to turn trains. It's almost inevitable, at $900 million per mile or whatever, that this thing will be built in small segments if it's built at all. Maybe the the MTA will be able to raise $12 billion in one lump sum, but that would be quite a feat.
The MTA definitely doesn't want a shuttle to handle upper Second Avenue; they want a through service off the Broadway BMT. MESA suggested a train from 95th-Bay Ridge, although a Q/Brighton service does seem like a better choice.
While an east-west orientation of the 125th Street station would be more convenient for MetroNorth riders, orienting the station in that direction is pretty much turning your back on the Bronx.
While not impossible, it would be much more difficult to eventually bring the Second Avenue subway into the east Bronx with a perpendicular orientation at 125. The MESA ridership data analysis previously posted on the MTA's website indicated that there is a great demand for additional rapid transit in the East Bronx, namely Co-op City.
For much less cost per unit distance than subway tunnel construction, passageways from Park to Lexington (to 3rd Ave?) could be constructed under 125th Street. These passageways could be architecturally inviting (unlike most IND passageway architecture), and have moving walkways, if necessary.
In conclusion, I wouldn't preclude 2nd Avenue subway extension to a region of the City with demonstrated demand. Not only is this politically dangerous, but suburbanites still could get their enclosed transfer to the 2nd Avenue subway, and for less construction cost.
MATT-2AV
While not impossible, it would be much more difficult to eventually bring the Second Avenue subway into the east Bronx with a perpendicular orientation at 125. The MESA ridership data analysis previously posted on the MTA's website indicated that there is a great demand for additional rapid transit in the East Bronx, namely Co-op City.
Not if the line is built with four tracks, as it should be. Bring two of the tracks (probably the Manhattan local ones) west to an east-west station under 125th between Lexington and Park. The other two tracks can be aimed up towards the Bronx, for a possible future connection to one of the Bronx IRT lines, which from what I understand were built to specifications which would allow running of wider, longer cars if the platforms were to be shaved back. Or even for a connection to new Bronx service for Co-Op city.
It looks good on a map for the two tracks heading west on 125th to continue, making connections with the other lines that have stops on 125th, but people have mentioned that this would be difficult from an engineering standpoint.
Mark
Well, a four-track subway doesn't seem likely (it wasn't even likely 30 years ago), but even a two-track line can handle at least two different routes: say the Q from Broadway/63rd Street and another train straight up from lower Second Avenue (it would be the K or X train or whatever letter is available then). Thus one train could go to the Bronx and the other west on 125th Street. Offhand, a 125th Street line doesn't seem too difficult from an engineering standpoint. It would have to go deep to pass under the Lexington Avenue line, but the 63rd Street tunnel goes deep to do the same thing.
"Not if the line is built with four tracks, as it should be. Bring two of the tracks (probably the Manhattan local ones) west to an east-west station under 125th between Lexington and Park. The other two tracks can be aimed up towards the Bronx, for a possible future connection to one of the Bronx IRT lines, which from what I understand were built to specifications which would allow running of wider, longer cars if the platforms were to be shaved back. Or even for a connection to new Bronx service for Co-Op city."
Anything will be better than taking over the Pelham IRT lines. Other options included:
Dyre Avenue using the Old B/W Railroad
3rd Avenue Elevated Line
125th Street Crosstown
N/W Bwy
Last time I checked, the resources weren't available for a two-track subway alignment, let alone a four-track alignment. More transit isn't always better transit, and I assert that the limited resources should be dedicated to introducing rapid transit to currently undeserved regions of the city. Building a 125th Street cross-town subway certainly wouldn't be a waste. At the same time, I argue that funds can be better spent elsewhere.
125th Street is already a subway rich corridor. You have stops (from West to East) for the 1/9, A/B/C/D, 2/3, and 4/5/6. You also have MetroNorth.
The problem is that uptown residents have a one-seat ride only to their respective side of midtown. Upper East Side (Upper East Side proper to East Harlem) residents can only travel directly to Midtown East, and Upper West Side (Upper West Side proper to Inwood) residents can only travel directly to Midtown West. The only exception is Upper West Side residents who can reach "Central" Midtown via the B or D.
The same pattern can be extended to the Bronx, more or less.
The primary purpose of a 125th Street cross-town subway would then be to provide Upper West Side residents with a two-seat ride to midtown east. The 125th Street cross-town line as you propose would provide no such benefit to Upper East Side residents. Only those within walking distance of 125th Street would have the benefit of a one-seat ride.
My main concern over the 125th Street cross-town proposal is that Upper West Side residents already have a two-seat ride to Midtown East. They can take the 1,2,3,9,A, or C trains to Times Square and transfer to the 7 or S. They can also reach as far east as 6th avenue by way of the B and D.
As for engineering obstacles, well, from personal experience, I can tell you that there are always obstacles. The only ones I can think of right now are the Manhattan Valley fault, which other subway lines cross (albeit at a right angle to the proposed line), poor soil in that region (which didn't stop earlier subway construction), and the need to interface with 4 or so other lines. As such, I would imagine that the subway would have to be deep-bore along 125th. There may be other utilities and water lines to cross, but I don't know their elevations off-hand. Perhaps someone else could explain to me what the engineering challenges are? I don't see why the line could not be engineered with sufficient time and money.
Still, I argue that we should be providing people with an any-seat ride before we start reducing the number of transfers down to zero for other commuters. In other words, there are vast regions of this city without rapid transit. With such limited finds, spend the money on them before duplicating existing service options.
MATT-2AV
MATT as always, a good well spoken point!
Arti
Arti,
Thanks.
MATT-2AV
All valid points, but you missed part of the intent of the 125th Street crosstown suggestion. I didn't even come close to fully explaining it in that post. I'm not going to come close here, either, but I will point out why 125th Street crosstown service provides more than an N-seat ride to neighborhood X for Upper West Side residents.
I feel that any future Second Avenue line will need to prove itself through ridership and through the impact it makes on the rest of the system.
I also feel that a line with connections such as those that a 125th Street crosstown would provide has a far better shot at bringing riders off of other lines and on to the new one. If people from other lines begin riding down Second Avenue, that's good for the line. Realistically, nobody can expect the line to have a Bronx connection from day one. Leaving the options for a future Bronx connection open is desirable, but that connection may never get built if the line doesn't prove itself. Keeping as many riders on the trunk as possible is good for business.
You're right in that 125th Street is already well-served. The money could be better spent for sure bringing transit to, say, southeastern Queens. That's a large project unto itself, though, and as long as the proposed Second Avenue line is going to begin (end) at 125th and Lexington, it's probably worth considering the extra mile over to Broadway, especially if it would make for more favorable politics in the future. Admittedly, it's a little slimy, but in a perfect world, we would have had this thing built three times over already.
Mark
Okay, I had never approached it in that direction. Thanks for taking the time to explain your theory to me.
Redistributing riders from other lines is certainly a valid reason for a 125th Street cross-town line. I don't know that it justifies the presence of the extension, but at the same time, I can't prove that it doesn't.
Redistribution, after all, is the whole reason for the proposal of capturing an East Side IRT line.
However, in the case of a four-track alignment, I wonder if a 125th Street cross-town extension is a solution in search of a problem. You mention the need of the 2nd Avenue line to prove itself in ridership. So say that one set of 2nd Avenue tracks either originates at 125, or comes down from the Bronx. The other set is used to bring riders from other lines along 125. You're then building an extra two tracks just to gain ridership.
For a two-track alignment, a 125th Street cross-town extension is certainly more valid; you're not building extra express tracks, just the cross-town extension. Don't feel that's politics makes the issue slimy. Politics decides what gets done and what doesn't. Just remember that once you make that sharp turn to the west down 125, you're turning your back on the Bronx. That could be very unwise politically, even if we all feel that a Bronx extension will never happen as long as people are still riding trains. The only solution to this political dilemma would be to have two diverging lines running on the same tracks (kind of like the uptown 2 and 3), with one heading up to the Bronx (or just terminating at 125), and the other heading west. Ridership has already demonstrated the need for a 2nd Avenue subway. The question that then remains is whether the 125th Street branch is justified? It certainly may be.
If it isn't, what your left with is the two-track alignment that is currently shown.
MATT-2AV
I don't follow your argument.
I don't think anyone is claiming the 2nd Avenue line should be a four-track line solely so it can branch at its north end. It should be a four-track line for the same reason each of the other north-south Manhattan trunk lines have four tracks: for express service, for additional capacity, etc.
Once there are four tracks, the question arises of where to send them when they split up. From 125th and 2nd, it makes sense for a set of tracks to go to the Bronx. It also makes sense for a set to cross 125th Street. With only two tracks, we'd have to pick one or the other, or put up with a merge. With four tracks, we can do both without causing delays.
"While not impossible, it would be much more difficult to eventually bring the Second Avenue subway into the east Bronx with a perpendicular orientation at 125. The MESA ridership data analysis previously posted on the MTA's website indicated that there is a great demand for additional rapid transit in the East Bronx, namely Co-op City."
The original plan called for using the former B/W railroad tracks into Dyre Avenue. This spur was to come from the 126th Triborough Station. But the MTA wanted to avoid the cost of building another seperate underwater tunnel into the Bronx, so they fooled everyone into believing that a Lexington Connection was better. It is not compare to what I'm going to say.
Of course I prefer the more expensive option, especially if the MTA included in their plans, the 3rd Avenue Elevated line. This spur can connect the #6 and than the and 2/5 lines. It will go all the way to Gun Hill Road with another connection b/t the 2/5.
The other spur (via B/W railroad) will allow a connection with the #6 at Hunts Point Avenue and the 2/5 at East 180th Street. This new option makes it easier to transfer from the Far East Bronx to the Central Bronx. But the Extension of the D line into White Plains Road will give the biggest benefits by providing a western option.
I know this other idea sounds far-fetch! but I feel it's also an option. I'm sure everyone is aware of the #3 line? Weellll, I feel that #3 line will serve a better purpose in the Bronx in opposed to it's current terminus. The new #3 can run via University Avenue which will eventually end up at Woodlawn (current #4) terminus. And since the #4 and D is so close, the #4 can be brought over to the University Avenue.
Furthermore, the 1 or 9 (or shuttle cross bronx line) can be a Gun Hill Road Line terminating at White Plains Road. This will be the final solution to mass transit in the Bronx.
N/W Broadway Line
As a Bronx resident, my tendency would be to find merit in most of these proposals. And since the borough actually gained population in the last census, a turnaround from the steep declines of earlier decades, there is more chance of transit extensions becoming a reality now.
However, priorities have to be set. Extension of the Second Avenue subway would seem the most likely project to push for, and there are indeed various options for doing it (via Boston Road for best ridership; via Northeast Corridor for lower costs). The other concepts have popped up over the years, and seem to have the following prospects.
3rd Avenue replacement service. MTA had this in their 1968 plans, running along the Harlem Division. However, they never specified the engineering of the thing. How would they widen the right-of-way? I suspect that this was a red herring (there were others, like the Utica Avenue subway), and the MTA never intended this to be a priority item.
University Avenue subway. This was actually suggested in the 1920s, when the area was booming, but didn't make into the the IND first or second systems. There is merit in the idea of moving the 4 off the el eventually, but I don't see it happening soon.
1/9/A extensions. RPA offered various suggestions for this in the 1980s, including a Fordham Road subway. I think it would be better to extend the A rather than the 1/9, and go via Fordham rather than Gun Hill.
Extending the D really should get a higher priority over the A. I've seen Burke/White Plains suggested as the terminal, but Gun Hill/White Plains might be better - the fare control area is already at street level, and it's a major bus hub. The benefits of this short route would be considerable.
IMO, the new 3rd Av. line as well as the line to the NE Bronx should get the most priority if there are any new extensions into the borough. With the 3rd Av. line, you really don't need a line going up Boston Rd/US 1, esp. south of W. Farms. Reason: because there would be less than a mile separating the 3rd Av. line from the 2/5 line to E 180th, and the Boston Rd. addition would cause an over - abundance of capacity while the rest of the borough is still underserved.
The RPA in it's METROLINK plan had proposed that any new line to the NE Bronx should use the Northeast Corridor tracks after crossing the Harlem River. In my view, this would be difficult, esp. since CSX took over the frieght tracks (which would inevitably have to be torn up for the subway lines); negotiations would then have to be made with the FRA, creating a mess.
I ling had the idea of utilizing the Pelham line tunnels up to Hunt's Point (so has the MTA), and then branching off at that point: one branch would run along Story/Lafayette Avs en route to Throg's Neck, the other utilizing the el to Pelham Bay, with an extension to Bay Plaza. The major cost would be trying to build the tunnel of the southern line through what used to be marshlands, as well as retrofitting the tunnels and el. The extension would be easier, since there are wide spaces of grass on the NYS Thruway - NE section bet. Pelham and Bartow Av.
"IMO, the new 3rd Av. line as well as the line to the NE Bronx should get the most priority if there are any new extensions into the borough. With the 3rd Av. line, you really don't need a line going up Boston Rd/US 1, esp. south of W. Farms. Reason: because there would be less than a mile separating the 3rd Av. line from the 2/5 line to E 180th, and the Boston Rd. addition would cause an over - abundance of capacity while the rest of the borough is still underserved."
Your post is very confusing. The 2/5 does not run on Boston Road. If it did, it will be a lot better than the current alignment. I personally feel the 2/5 is too close to the #6 (similar to the 4 and D); leaving the rest of the Bronx (Far West and Central) very underserved.
If you are saying they should realign the number 2/5 onto Boston Road, that is definately an idea that should be consider. But does this new alignment really solve the complete problem of the lack of service in the Central Bronx?
The former 3rd Avenue Line had a very good alignment, but those stupid assholes tore it down! They did not consider the residence and businesses of which the line served. But there's hope.
If they do decide to build on RPA's idea (boston road idea), what will happen to the plans for a new Third Avenue Line? Probably nothing... because it doesn't matter anymore.. "PASSENGERS NOW GOT THE BOSTON ROAD OPTION."
I proposed to have an elevated line built along Third Avenue since I had the impression that they won't be too much community opposition. But the biggest reason is because of the cost of putting a subway underneath 3rd Avenue.
Another similar idea includes putting the subway on the Metro North roe, however, that doesn't seem likely. Why? Because it will reduce compacity on these lines heading for Westchester & Connecticut. Not unless they widen the embankment to include two additional tracks that will be strickly for subway purposes. But that will be like building a subway under Third Avenue. Besides that, it will cause unnecessary delays on along the roe due to construction. Tell me if it's worth it (shaking my head)?
The 3rd Avenue Elevated definately sounds attractive in comparison to the other alternatives I mentioned. But lets see what happens in the future.
N/W Broadway Lines
Yes, they tore the Third Ave. line down, but they also let it deteriorate to an almost dangerous state just before they did that. The ties were rotten like you would not believe.
"Yes, they tore the Third Ave. line down, but they also let it deteriorate to an almost dangerous state just before they did that. The ties were rotten like you would not believe."
Why did these fool let this viable transportation go to waste?
N/W Broadway Lines
What he was trying to say that a line straight up Third Avenue (or a parallel street) would provide more benefits than diagonal line along Boston Road. Offhand I'm not sure which would best. (None of this is even on the MTA's radar yet.) Back in the 1980s RPA considered the Boston Road line as a way to demolish the 2/5 el between 149th and 180th. By the time of Metrolink (1999), Boston Road was to be an additional line, not a replacement, so that there would be a speedier alternative for people coming down from the Northeast Bronx. The old el would still handle local service in the Southeast Bronx.
"Extending the D really should get a higher priority over the A. I've seen Burke/White Plains suggested as the terminal, but Gun Hill/White Plains might be better - the fare control area is already at street level, and it's a major bus hub. The benefits of this short route would be considerable."
Exactly. The D extension is also the least expensive of the other ideas I posted earlier. As for the "A" line being extended, this is the first time I'm hearing these plans. But since you mentioned it, I don't approval of this idea for various reasons. The "A" is one of the longest lines in the system. Any longer than it's present state will be too much for the train operator. Plus, I can't see the "A" line going all the way to the Westside just to go back to the Eastside. The 1/9 is definately a better option, because, the route is much shorter, and the 1/9 pretty much stays on the westside. And, Gun Hill Road will be better than fordham road because it will give north bronx residence the option to travel from one end of the North bronx to the other.
"Extending the D really should get a higher priority over the A. I've seen Burke/White Plains suggested as the terminal, but Gun Hill/White Plains might be better - the fare control area is already at street level, and it's a major bus hub. The benefits of this short route would be considerable."
Gun Hill Road is definately a better option than the Burke/White Plains Station. Not only all the buses meet there (as you mentioned), but this is an express station for the #5.
N/W Broadway Line
An extension into the Bronx, while much desired (I live in the Bronx), is a long-term will-o'-the-wisp. Get some immediate benefits from situating the 125 St. terminus east-west. This could allow a future extension to a 125th Crosstown subway, as well as the MNRR connection. (A lot of MNRR riders would transfer -- not only to get to the East Side, but also to go Wall Street via the 63rd St. branch and the Bway line.) You can still extend to the Bronx anyway -- by branching north from 125 St., contnuing straight up Second Ave., leaving the 125th Station as a second, intermediate terminus.
Amtrak has announced a restructuring plan. Included is an effort to reduce management ranks. I don't know exactly how they're carrying this out, but it can be difficult to use that strategy, because the better managers may take it, and leave less competent people still at their jobs...
http://www.amtrak.com/news/archive/atk01146.html
Amtrak has announced a restructuring plan. Included is an effort to reduce management ranks. I don't know exactly how they're carrying this out, but it can be difficult to use that strategy, because the better managers may take it, and leave less competent people still at their jobs...
Amtrak is trying to handle the layoffs as compassionately as possible by using early retirement incentives. While that's obviously the best way to handle a difficult situation from a moral point of view, it doesn't necessarily make the best business sense. From a strictly business standpoint, the best approach would be to make layoffs on a performance basis - workers who scored lowest on their most recent evaluations would be let go, while the better performers would stay. It's really hard to decide which way is better. I certainly don't envy the Amtrak managers who had to decide.
I heard there weren't any competent managers at Amtrak..........
(I heard there weren't any competent managers at Amtrak....)
What AMTRAK is now saying, and the Daily News as well, is that rail only makes economic sense in dense corridors (ie. ours), but politicians have required it to operate a national newtork AND break even. It isn't possible.
Unless they shut down rail service in the Northeast out of spite, we'd be better off if AMTRAK didn't exist.
Amtrak is the only thing keeping the Airlines from shitting on us even more. I want it to stay as is.
Amtrak must survive!
I agree with you.
The newspapers said they have to lay off 2900 management employees. How many management employees does amtrak have?
They said buy-out offers are being made to 2900 such positions. I read that as saying they are hoping 10-15 % of them will take it. They only have a payroll of 25,000 to start with labor.
I work for a company who does this "performance management" stuff, and the system is abused. It's a political popularity process, and people whose jobs are not that essential, or deemed to be non-essential a year or two out are set up to get shitty appraisals. Unrecognized, but good performers, leave anyway; political pets and hacks stay, competent or not.
I was looking at a MBTA GP40 1116 and discoverd that it was Made by Alstom
Made originaly by them? Unlikely. A license-build, perhaps, on a US design? Or a re-build?
Maybe a rebuild.
I've had it with the newspapers printing daily whinefests about the new subway lines. Even John Podhertz got into the act in Friday's Post in his Op-ed piece. If anyone cannot by now figure out how to navigate the system with the new services, then they are stupid morons who should just stay home until 2004.
Sadly not everyone gets the notices like 6 months in advanced like we do. They use the subway to get to work and back home nothing else. So it will defintly take time for everything to get to "normal" just media always takes bad situations and makes them worse. It sucks, but hey we got to deal with it. By the end of the 1st weeks of august everything will be fine and the media will have found another thing to latch on.
It just seems like the newspapers are playing everything up. This story should've died after Monday's confusion (reported in Tuesday's papers). But every day brings a new story. I almost threw my paper away when I read the story about how people don't know what the "S" train is.
It's a sure sign of a slow news week when subway re-routes dominate the local press. But you do have to wonder what fog regular subway riders must be in to have been surprised by the changes.
Where the hell were all those newspapers when half the Manhattan Bridge was out for 18 years. NY pols have realized if they just KEEP things bad, it isn't a story. Only change is a story, for people against change.
Aside from a few shop owners on Grand Street, having the north side out is no worse than having the south side out. Having both sides out 20 years from now with no replacement -- THAT's what we should be worried about.
The disruption, and potential disruption, caused by the bridge ought to be a story every week until is is fixed, and stays fixed, or is replaced.
It is a mystery to me that the long-term Manhattan Bridge issue is still not even on the radar of even the most loud-mouthed Brooklyn politician. If the MB is ever deemed unsound then these same loud-mouths will be jockeying for position in front of tv cameras to roast the city and state DOTs. In fact S.I. and Queens elected officials should be interested in the MB for the obvious reason that if it is ever shut down the other East River vehicle and subway crossings will have to shoulder the burden. And I wonder what shape the Williamsburg Bridge is in??
Getting back to re-route "confusion". The MTA isn't helping matters by having 2 "Q" services on the Brighton where for years expresses and locals had individual letter designations.
It is a mystery to me that the long-term Manhattan Bridge issue is still not even on the radar of even the most loud-mouthed Brooklyn politician.
They probably won't still be in office if/when the bridge becomes totally unusable, so they don't care.
The Williamsburg Bridge had repairs done to it a couple of years ago - the subway approaches were repaired and signalling replaced. A successful project.
"Getting back to re-route "confusion". The MTA isn't helping matters by having 2 "Q" services on the Brighton where for years expresses and locals had individual letter designations."
Oh please give it a rest already. This is not the first time this has been done. The #7 runs 2 services with one route #. So does the #6 and even the A. No one is complaining about them. Which is more confusing a < Q > that runs express from Brighton Beach and a (Q) that runs local from Stillwell Ave. or the (A) to Far Rockaway and (A) to Lefferts? Stop buying into the media hysteria.
"By the end of the 1st weeks of august everything will be fine and the media will have found another thing to latch on. "
This is correct. On Aughust 4th they will find Chandra Levy riding back anf forth on a B train trying to get to Brooklyn.
Elias
20 DIE DUE TO CONEY ISLAND TIDAL WAVE
or
PERFECT WEATHER AT CONEY ISLAND, YESTERDAY
Now which headline would catch your attention? Sadly, the newspapers don't sell because of good news. If they didn't hype the 'chaos' under ground, people would not be interested. On Monday,when told how to reach their destination, virtually everyone I assisted had the same response, "That's it?" The changes were not so earthshaking as the media would have the public believe. In short, don't blame the media - blame us.
LOL.
Point taken. But I still blame the media. They consistently went back to the well with this whole story and exaggerated every little change. One day it was the confusion over 2 Q trains, then those who didn't know what the Sixth Ave shuttle was, etc.
It was like the big story last Sunday when they imploded the last 2 gas tanks in Greenpoint. They were always an eyesore yet channel 7 managed to interview every asshole who would say that the loss of the tanks was like losing part of their youth. One woman said that with the loss of the tanks, she'd never be able to give directions again. With that the reporter asked if the woman was worried about airbourne lead. The woman, who clearly had no clue what airbourne lead was, said "yeah, that too." That's the media business these days. If you can't report it, create it.
(It was like the big story last Sunday when they imploded the last 2 gas tanks in Greenpoint.)
If there ever was an example of "oscillating stupidity" in public policy this is it. Fifty years ago we had Robert Moses bulldozing entire neighborhoods without a thought. Now we have the opposite stupidity -- people protesting the demolition of industrial gas tanks and the installation of wind power turbines, and filing "environmental" lawsuits on the subject.
Fortunately, the "environmentalists" were only able to stall a couple of weeks on this time. Maybe the tide will turn.
There was letter printed this week in the Daily news asking those happy the tanks are gone how happy they'll be when a landfill or nuclear power plant ultimately replaces them.
For gods sake, if you live in an industrial area, you have to accept the consequences. There's a REASON your new home cost 75% less!
-Hank
Yup - I read that letter too. In the writer's small mind, keyspan has only two choices - a ballpark or a nuclear power plant.
Those weepy morons who "miss" the tanks amaze me. Some of these losers were actually crying when they were imploded. This is city is filled with people terrified of change - even if it improves their neighborhood. Unbelievable.
That's one place where a CLEAN, EFFICIENT AND SAFE nuclear reactor should be built.
Bring on the nuclear plant, as far as I'm concerned. Preferable to the landfill, (though the landfill would be easier to staff - fewer educational requirements).
(Bring on the nuclear plant, as far as I'm concerned. Preferable to the landfill, (though the landfill would be easier to staff - fewer educational requirements).)
Of course, the real nightmare is a large supermarket.
Good God, we can't have one of THOSE! I HATE paying less for food!
Bring on the nuclear plant, as far as I'm concerned. Preferable to the landfill, (though the landfill would be easier to staff - fewer educational requirements).
Of course, the real nightmare is a large supermarket.
Yet another one of these only-in-New York moments!
Or DEAR GOD a Home Depot!
-Hank
Totally agree with you. Podhertz is an idiot for writing that piece.
The media has to sell newspapers, get ratings, etc......
My two cents, if I may. All the media hype and mass hysetria is just another instance of the "dumbing down" of the city. New Yorkers have always been opposed or reluctant to change. Many refuse to "get with it"; others simply can't. Eventually most accept; others give up.
It was the same in 1967 with the opening of Chrystie St connection and the Grand Street station. It was the biggest change this city had seen since the IND opened. Mass confusion. Then,as now, the TA issued new maps and individual route information, in full color. The media was informed and reproduced the map as well. Everyone got over soon enough. Ask any of today's subway rider if they even knew, let alone recall, the days before Chrystie Street. To make a great omelet, you have to break some eggs!
Joe C.
I agree. The weekend of the changes it was the only lead story on all the local broadcasts. It seemed as if nothing of news worthiness was happening.
Its similiar to when a bad snow storm or Northeaster comes to town, they tell is stock up on batteries and water etc, etc.
Reading the Post was your first mistake.
-Hank
Recently, I was at the Concourse Yard, I noticed towards the back, I saw a wrecked subway car.I cant tell if its a R-68 or R-62.It looks really banged up.Is this the same car from the 1991 crash at 14th street? It looked really sheared off.I remember back in 1991 after the crash the TA put the R-62's there.
>>>>Is this the same car from the 1991 crash at 14th street?
Yes it is. And there are no plans to move it that I know of.
No that one is from last years Light wash train crash. It is the one the buckle in the middle.
Robert
That's cool! Leave it there as a sculpture. That's our #1437, isn't it? (I think they cut up #1440 at the wreck site)
wayne
1437 is gone, actually. It was carted off to scrap earlier this year right from the yard.
What remains is 1369, from the collision at Fordham Rd in October 2000.
-Stef
Well something had to replace it.
Concourse Yard isn't the same without it's resident relic.
HA! They replaced one wreck with another..... Too bad the elderly R-12/14 pair isn't there any longer.
-Stef
We still have OD437 in Concourse Yard. No plans to scrap it - no hope of selling it - and no one will use it.
OD437?
Would you clarify what that is?
-Stef
OD437 is a side dump car that has a tracking problem over one switch on the entire system.
Do they repair cars in batches? Is that why this unit hasn't gone to the shop yet (or the scrapyard, if it is beyond repairs)?
The car is beyond repair. It should be in a scrap heap, but it will be some time before that happens. Wrecks seem to linger for years on end. 10 years after the USQ derailment occurred, someone finally got around to scrapping the accident cars.
Space is at a premium these days with the intoduction of 142s, and exiting of the Redbird Clan. Why keep wrecks and other old cars around when they only take up space?
-Stef
I think the main reason cars are held over is because of the lawyers and victims that capitalize after an incident. Litigation lingered years after the Union Square wreck. The Williamsburg Bridge cars are still on the property and may be for a few more years, until the last cases are settled. I remember pieces of the 14 Street cars littering 207 and Westchester Yards for a few years as well. In the 1369 car, the Transit Authority was so worried of the extent of the damage they brought engineers in from Kawasaki to look, I guess in the standpoint of improving the new car frames.
I think you may have hit the critical issue. The TA was and is concerned because the damage that resulted from the collision involving car 1369 was so disproportionate to what normally should have been expected from an incident of that type. The engineers have looked at the incident from virtually every aspect and feel that had the incident occured on level, tangent track, the damage would have been expected to be much less severe. The fact that it occured on a 1.4% grade is believed to have contributed to the extensive damage. Does this point to a design flaw in the Kawasaki cars? Will this ultimately lead to Kawasaki absorbing a portion of the losses? This may explain why the car is "hands-off" to all for now.
That's a good point.
Remind me: NTSB doesn't get involved in subway accidents, right (only if the commuter railroad, Amtrak or PATH were involved)??
Don't think so; NTSB reports are available for all of the major (and some of the minor) subway accidents going back to Utica Portal in 1981. You can download some of them by going to the NTSB website.
wayne
NTSB does investigate if damages exceed $10,000, involve customer fatality or employee injury.
So anything above a bent anticlimber would rate an NTSB look, correct?
IIRC they even investigated the little mishap between two R42s at Graham Avenue some years ago (both suffered cracked bonnets, bent anticlimbers etc) and this is the cause of that dreadful 8MPH GT they have there - why don't they go whole hog and put in a WD! I can walk faster than the train runs between Grand and Graham!
wayne
Let me clarify my previous statement. To the best of my understanding, any incident where there is damage over $9,999 must be reported to the NTSB. It may or may not be investigated by them.
The Williamsburg Bridge cars are still on the property and may be for a few more years, until the last cases are settled.
4664 is gone, and the Scrapped/Wrecked roster on this site says 4461 was to be repaired and returned to service. Were cars other than the ends damaged and still linger?
Well... that's what I heard anyway. Maybe it was scrapped after all. Has anyone (Wayne) seen 4461 recently?
Ah, I assumed that it was in the shop for repairs in that photo :). 4461 looks worse off than 4664 in those pictures, anyway.
4427-8 are gone, also; they went with 4664, 4685, and an R-40 and a 42 minus number plates (one of them 4726, maybe?) in late January. I have a few photos of their internment at SBK; feel free to add any to the Scrapped/Wrecked roster if you wish.
Thanks I'll add the photos!
All I meant by my original post is that you have to keep in mind I don't have someone from the TA who's in charge of deciding when to scrap or when to save a car emailing me updates all the time. So the roster data "might" be incorrect. I rely on what I hear on here (Subtalk) to update the rosters and I'm sure you all know how reliable that is, sometimes.. :-)
-Dave
Thanks I'll add the photos!
Thank you; I'm honored :)
I rely on what I hear on here (Subtalk) to update the rosters and I'm sure you all know how reliable that is, sometimes
You mean the <Q> isn't all R-68s and there are no R-62As in Corona yard??
Great pictures! That was most of the junk they cleaned out at 207 Yd. that you photographed at SBK. I believe that R40 might have been #4260. That was taken out of Coney Island along with the R42's.
Thanks!
I guess they had to make room for all the incoming scrap at 207 :).
Hey Dave. #4461 is safe and sound for the time being inside Coney Island main shop with a slant R40 nose/bonnet. Cosmetically, the car looks like it was never in an accident. The car has been there for some time now and hasn't been touched for about a year and a half or more. I don't think they know what to do with it. In case anyone was wondering, they do have another car to mate up with it. #4259 is right next to it and looks worse than #4461. Its nose/bonnet is damaged and a chunk of it around the T/O cab is missing. This car was also involved in a mishap. I would hate to think that they had done all that work on the car (4461) and then not have it returned to service. We'll have to wait and see but it appears unlikely with the arrival of the R143's.
They're both odd numbers, though; wouldn't one of them need a "sex change" (not that it hasn't been done...)?
Yeah, somebody will have to turn in a compressor for a converter. Couldn't see why it can't be done.
What was going on today at the 34th street-Herald Square station? I was there around 12noon getting off the D train and was going to change to the Q. I was in the front car and had to walk to the northern end of the platform to get out, all stairwells at the southern end of the station were taped off with red tape and there was a smell of smoke. There were mobs of people, the platform was jammed so much that you could barely get to the open exits. After getting on the S/B platform on the Broadway line I walked to the south end where the stairway was open, but the transfer to the IND was taped off as well. Later in the afternoon around 2pm I was on a Queens bound F and the stairways at the southern end were still blocked off. Nothing about it on WCBS or WINS, and there were no announcements about the partial station closure in the subway either.
Also the Queens Plaza station smelled like electrical smoke. Perhaps that was from welding going on (R's ran via 63rd street)
Was at the Met game last night, and walked past the Corona yard to the LIRR.
I am happy to report that I did not see any R62's in the yard.
Yeah, ok. Well, I hope the R62As that will go to the 7 have bench seats that look EXACTLY like Kawasaki R62 cars #1586-1590, one half of the R62 Yankee set I saw on the 4 on Wednesday.
CWalNYC
Don't do that!
It's like posting something like: R-40 slants on the F - I walked by Jamaica yard and saw none.
Enjoy your happiness while you can because, YOU'RE DAY IS COMING WHEN THE ENTIRE FLUSHING LINE IS FLASHING SILVER AND YOU'RE BELOVED REBIRDS WELL BE HOME TO THE FISHES OR RECYCLED TO BE YOUR NEW AUTOMOBILE.
I seen today MBTA GP40 number 1116 and it was built by Alstom. Anybody seen ones that are built by Alstom?
The 1100 series was originally built by GM and then rebuilt by AMF Technotransport in 1997-98.
Read all about it on the NE Transit site.
Is Alstom part of AMF Technotransport?
They should get them rebuilt by Juniata. They do the best work there.
They should get them rebuilt by Juniata.
WHAT IS JUNIATA?
The ex-PRR, ex-CR, Currently NS Juniata shops in Altoona PA. They rebuilt most of the NJT Geeps.
Im talking about the ones owned by the MBTA.
As Todd Glickman noted in an earlier post, check out the N.E. Transit website (http://members.aol.com/netransit/index.html). They have a complete roster of all MBTA rail and bus equipment. Pretty good stuff. According to the site, the MBTA's GP40MC's were rebuilt by AMF Technotransport from former Canadian National widecab freight units. I believe that they were GP40-2's.
Jim D. (RailBus)
Like I said Is Alstom part of AMF Technotransport?
<< Like I said Is Alstom part of AMF Technotransport? >>
I don't know.
Jim D. (RailBus)
AMF Technotransport was purchased by Alstom a few years ago. It was part of CN.
So the MBTA GP40's are built by Alstom
So the MBTA GP40's are built by Alstom
No. They were built by EMD and rebuilt by Alstom.
I was going to say that.
I would love to send you a personal e-mail to explain all the things that are happening in the locomotive business today, but you don't exist.
Virginia Division - BMT
Yeah, but BOMBardier/Alstom is Amtrak's "preferred builder" (wink wink) now. I'm almost starting to think that Tier II for HSR was a deliberate attempt on somebody's part to lock Talgo, etc. out of the market. You'll note that NJ tends to go to ABB/Adtranz as of late, NY goes to Kawasaki/Bombardier, and Amtrak goes Bombardier/Alstom. I stopped believing that these contracts were assigned on technical merrit (which they SHOULD be), or cost, long ago.
Anyway, the MBTA getting Alstom stuff is a result of the subcontracting to Amtrak, just as Marc getting HHP-8s is.
What I never understood was the EMD/GE split between the LIRR and MN. AFAIK, the LIRR has never run (pure) GE diesels, but MN has
The latest GE diesels (Genesis) have some nice features. What is most impressive is that they offer up to 4,500 horsepower per unit, not a bad achievement for a diesel.
I assume EMD now offers something comparable.
They run up to 4200 and todays top rated diesels run at 5000 or 6000.
That is quite an achievement, esp. when you consider that the AEM-7, which has no deadweight on board (eg the diesel engine itself along with fuel tank and generator), delivers 7000 horses...
The all time goal is to achieve Q2 power w/ a non-electric engine. That is 8000hp. At that point diesel will have surpassed steam.
That would be impressive indeed. Of course, the real goal is to increase horse-power-to-weight ratios in a diesel locomotive, while maintaining dimensions and axle-loading which allow it to operate safely and efficiently on any railroad.
But electric locomotive makers aren't standing by and not innovating. We have TGV, Acela, the third-generation Japanese Shinkansen. What are we up to, 10,000 horsepower per loco on the best of these?
What are we up to, 10,000 horsepower per loco on the best of these?
I don't know. 10k per car sounds a little overkill. The first TGV's have 4.4k per end. The later ones had 6 and I think the EuroStars have 8, but they are really long trains.
I believe there are a few European locos with short time ratings of 16khp, and a 10k continuous was a level that was demonstrated years ago.
At 25kv, assuming a 1ka load at the contact wire, this translates to a theoretical max of about 33,000 horsepower, though in real life, you'd probbably limit it to around 25,000hp.
And that's not out of the realm for electrical technology. I've heard of 25,000 hp from a single motor before.
The limit is size and switching electronics. And making a 5,000 hp motor that can fit in a rail truck (though it probbably would be body mounted). My guess is the next big thing will be water cooling fortraction motors.
I also have heard the TGV might go towards an MU type of distributed power, and of course, more motors means more power.
"I also have heard the TGV might go towards an MU type of distributed power, and of course, more motors means more power."
And better traction and acceleration.
Thank you for your informative post.
Does anyone know the e-mail address, or, better yet, the phone number of the TA website's coordinator? I need to speak to him or her about ADA complaince. I don't know if anyone has seen the new subway service advisory page, but by making it PDF and having pictures for links, my friend, who is blind and uses a DOS shell acount with a speech screen reader, can no longer read the page. Also, there is no telephone version. The telephone service advisories don't tell you anything. The TA is required to make this information available to people with disabilities. If they want to save money off their billion dollar budget, that's too bad. If anyone knows how to contact someone in authority, please let me know. Otherwise, we're going to contact the Government on this issue. This is dicrimination against people with disablilities. Thanks.
Contact Douglas Sussman's office (deputy director for community relations). Or, send a letter to the MTA Chairman, Peter Kalikow. His staff will make sure the letter gets to the right place.
Your concern is justified. Go for it!
WOW, a justifiable complaint on Subtalk.
I guess the world ends tomorrow...
-Hank
And the complaint wasn't from David J. Greenberger
I apologize. I'll try harder next time.
That's all we ask; give your absolute best all the time.
by making it PDF and having pictures for links, my friend, who is blind and uses a DOS shell acount with a speech screen reader, can no longer read the page.
Check out online conversion tools for Adobe PDF Documents.
Wow a section 508 of the Rehab act violation. Go for it!
Subway-buff and I took another lovely day trip through Brooklyn today, revisiting some of the places my parents and I lived (and taking pictures), and sampling the new "Q" and "W" services. No problems whatsoever with the "Q"; the Canal Broadway station looks good, it was nice to ride over the south side of the bridge once again; a pleasant ride to Coney Island (though I do long for Diamond "Q" service on the weekend, at least in the summertime), where some surprises awaited: the entire front of the subway entrance along witht the stores at Stillwell is GONE, naught but a skeleton of girders; and next to Nathans there was a building site that now is a dining area! ABOUT TIME, GUYS! That building was pretty decrepit, a good gust of wind could have knocked it down. Plenty of room to sit and chow down, and the tables have very cheesy-looking red and yellow plastic umbrellas. We took a walk on the Boardwalk and took in the sights of the amusement park. I was half tempted to try the Cyclone but chickened out. On the way back we decided to try the "W". All R68A, so it seems; and slow as molasses. As we left Coney Island, a Slant (with #4376 the north motor) headed out to the "N" at a brisk pace. We plodded along the West End line without breaking a sweat. In the express stretch, we never really got going and an "R" passed us up. Round about Union Street we ground to a halt! And we waited, and waited, and waited. Then the Slant "N" passed us by; we were standing still. We waited 15 minutes before making it into Pacific Street. I was hoping they'd hold the "N"; no such luck. U betcha dupa I was not too happy!
My complaint is THIS: What is the purpose of turning at Pacific Street? The "W" trains pile up waiting to enter the station; the trains get held in Pacific for more than five minutes each- what is the purpose of having an express run to nowhere? I mentioned to one of the platform conductors that they should TERMINATE THE "W" AT 36TH STREET on weekends. He nodded his head in agreement. Makes No Sense At All running it to Pacific only to have it encounter delays. Either run it into Manhattan or leave it as a shuttle. Turning at Pacific Street caused delays; I should have bailed out at 36th and waited for the local; next time I will do so.
my two cents worth
wayne
They run it to Pacific so the 2,3,4 and Q are available without double transferring. Most people care less about time wasted on the train then time wasted waiting for trains.
There are two things that seem to screw up the W at Pacific:
a problem of some sort that causes one train to arrive at Pacific much later than it should
and
people who refuse to get off the train, thereby stopping it from going into the relay.
I've now worked the W for three weekend days and have only once had a delay of more than a minute trying to get into Pacific.
I have heard alot about people being confused over the new Subway routes, one being the new V train. Well I don't see how they couldn't have known this was going to happen seeing as they ALREADY HAVE a V train. It's the one that goes from Bowling Green to Dyra Ave. and has almost NOTHING in common with the new V train. Now when someone tells you to take the V train you have to ask "which one". I think that the MTA did a piss poor job of naming the new routes and should go back and make some alterations. Bringing back the K train would be one solution.
Yeah but the "K" signs they currently have are blue, you'd have to change all the signs AGAIN to show the "K" in orange, which is the color that the "V" already is.
wayne
Maybe the Second Av service will end up being a "K."
Could be, Ron- although I think they will use "Y" and it will be light blue.
wayne
I doubt there will only be one service.
And don't forget, if they choose the Nassau line, the 2nd ave is brown. If they only build the north leg, it's yellow for Broadway.
I have a strange feeling, though, that the MTA will put their light blue color anyway even if it does tie in with Broadway and Nassau. A new color group is a very significant change, the MTA would want their multi-billion dollar project to have a major change reflected on the map, unlike what they were forced to do with 63st and Archer ave.
"And don't forget, if they choose the Nassau line, the 2nd ave is brown. If they only build the north leg, it's yellow for Broadway."
YOU GUYS ARE FUNNY! BUT YOU RIGHT! THAT'S WHAT IT WOULD BE... But I did see Light Blue as an identify color for the Second Avenue Line. The only way to give the second avenue it's own color is to run it down Water Street... The question is, is that likely?
N/W Broadway Lines
Uh I've never seen a V train anywher ein the NY Subways...what are you referrign to?
Roman numerals. The joke probably sounded better in its original Latin...
That's the spirit of it!
ah, now i get it...thanks
Ah, now I also get it.
And now I get it.
The filthy human loves to steal all of my ideas, like the Long Island 'ail Road.
humans-are-filthy@subtalklive.com
I think not. I complained privately to you about this problem several months ago.
He's being his usual idiot; and ripping off another poster in the process.
-Hank
I was riding 7270 today and the car was not making any sounds and the brakes smalt like they were bruning up. The trainstill did have fast pick up even though the head car motors were dead.
Robert
An R142a with no motors is the best kind
of R142a known to man whom loves thy redbird.
yea !! right on south ferry !!
FACT: what is know to man is that the rust birds are old crap and belongs in the sea.
yea !! right on south ferry !!
some of the R-142A's have very quiet motors than the rest of that fleet. however they can still be heard. the T.O. probably mastered the breaking thats why you didn't hear the loud moaning squeaking stop
No there were no motors. The rest of the train was making nose, and the brakes were overheating do to being the only thing that was stoping the car. I could tell this becouse I am a T/O as my handle says. I have head cars with out motor and the smell that a smelled on 7270 was becouse on this.
Robert
OOOOOOOHHHHHH!!! that is bad. atleast it sounds that way. I guess they were testing them out that way?
Yes, I was on that car yesterday. Could not hear the motors, and the brakes made a deep sqeaking sound everytime the TO applied them. Also the car only had one AC unit working.
That is normal. When the motors are out they have a effect on the brakes by causing them to smell as if its burning rubber and they sound horrible when they are applied. I was on when last week, and when the brakes were applied it made the loud consistant banging and long screeching sound. The R110A was also a victim of that problem when it arised.
Now that the Bridge flip has happened, whats the MTA gonna do about all the signage thats now incorrect. Wont they have to add a whole new letter to the neon subway sign at 42nd St?
Yeah, and add a whole lot more products to the Transit Museum store! Yay!
They have more problems than just those signs... I saw at one of the non-neon-decorated entrances to Times Square station that there wasn't enough room on the sign over the turnstiles to fit all the routes. So they stuck the (circle) Q and W over the C and E, and left out the diamond Q entirely.
It's 95% tourists going into that station anyway. I say they might as well leave the signs as they are for 3 years until this work supposedly ends and let them all be confused.
This afternoon I finally got up the nerve to introduce myself to the folks at the Illinois Railway Museum and tell them I was interested in doing some restoration work on the rapid transit equipment. They put me to work right away, doing some clean-up work on CTA car #30 (single-unit PCC-based car).
After having me sign my life away on a waiver form and after the museum had closed to the public, they invited me to head out on a two-car train of North Shore cars 160 and 714 to test the brakes which had been recently repaired. We took a loop around the grounds, and then after getting clear of the switches near the depot, they let me take the handle of car 160. The 4-1/2 mile main line track is in pretty good condition, so we got the train up to full series (about 40 MPH) for almost the entire way out to the end of the line, save for stopping at the siding midway out and letting an inbound deisel train pass. Somebody else was allowed to take the handle for the return trip.
Very cool!! It was reminscent of last summer at Seashore, except the train is much bigger and faster, and the track is about twice as long and in much better condition. It felt good to be back at the controls again. :-)
Hopefully those of you who are going on the Chicago field trip will be as impressed with IRM as I am. There's a couple of picnic areas on the grounds (I don't recall if there's any grills or not), but I'm thinking some sort of barbeque picnic would be perfect for lunch if the museum has no objections.
Regarding the lodging situation for the field trip, I'm still calling around to find the best group rates. (Most of the group sales people are in only during weekdays, which makes them rather difficult to contact when I'm out on job sites all day.) I've been told that Labor Day weekend is a pretty big convention weekend in Chicago, so finding a block of rooms at an affordable rate will be a challenge. I'll probably be reserving about 12-15 double rooms for the weekend. In addition, different people in the group have different preferences regarding location, price, hotel type (bed and breakfast, regular hotel, youth hostel). For these reasons I'm considering the idea of simply letting people make their own lodging arrangements. Travelocity.com is good for that, and I'm also happy to answer any questions about location, etc. I may also be able to allow one or two people to crash at my place if you have exhausted all other options and are able to provide your own bedding.
I'd appreciate any feedback about that, and in the meantime I'll continue calling around about setting up a group rate (so far I've been told that group rates offer about a 10% savings over normal rates. Not a huge savings, but it adds up.)
Just a reminder: The arrival date is Friday, August 31st, and the departure date is Monday, September 3rd. This coincides with Railfan Weekend at IRM ("If it works, it runs!"), and we'll be spending most of Saturday, September 1st there. The normal adult admission price is $9 each, but we got a $1 per ticket discount if there's more than 15 of us. There may also be some sort of reciprocity thing for card-carrying members of other museums such as Seashore or Branford, but I'm not certain. It may also be necessary to rent a van to get everybody out there from Chicago, depending on how many people we have and how many of these people will have cars. If we have to rent a van (or, God forbid, charter a bus), I'll ask everybody to split the cost.
That's all for now...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Congrats, guy ... first time at the throttle is a HUGE thrill even if you've got someone next to you ready to toss you on the floor and grab just in case. One thing though - you don't "Drive" a train, you "RUN" it ... figured I'd be nice and put that out there before some of the purists here whack your peepee over that ... but congrats, I remember the first day in school car when we were allowed to roll our first train 20 or so feet back and forth. Got better. :)
Didn't you say you stole a train before that?
Yep ... back when I was 15 back in 1966 ... I was with two friends and though I didn't grab the handles (I was afraid to) I was on the train with them, so yeah, that makes (made - statute of limitations) me an accomplice. When I was younger than that, I got some handle time on the A train from some friendly motormen but that also made me RESPECT the handles and not screw around when we did steal that Broadway local that Saturday morning from 242 to just north of 191.
One thing though - you don't "Drive" a train, you "RUN" it ...
Oops... I stand corrected.
This actually wasn't my first time at the controls of a rail vehicle, as I had operated a few of the trolleys at Seashore during my three-month "visit" to Boston last summer. Todd Glickmann and several other SubTalkers were with me on my real first time running a trolley. Today was, however, my first time at the controls of an actual train as opposed to a trolley and also my first time going at such a speed.
My main passion is electric equipment, but I still also fatasize about being able to run a huge deisel locomotive. Maybe someday I'll have a shot at doing that at IRM also. I'm also salivating at the prospect of seeing the museum's beautiful North Shore Electroliner train up and running someday.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'd done 38's, 40's and SD80MACs ... a LOT more complicated than running an electric ... and you GOTTA watch for the wheel slips - you can chew through a rail in no time if you throttle up too much. After getting to play with mighty diesels though, electrics such as subway cars are sorta like driving a volkswagen. :)
But yeah, first time out is a HUMONGOUS thrill ... and my first couple of days "at speed" I was a true chickensheet, constantly undershooting my stops, taking switches at SEVEN and basically letting the parallel get up to speed and letting it coast ... I got yelled at plenty my first couple of days out on the railroad as well and frankly, the Manhattan bridg scared the hell out of me on the downgrades. I had green timers all the way down. Heh.
An amendment since I'm sure to be yelled at by somebody for my poetic license on the "green timers" thing - I know they "clear" to yellow, was trying to make the point that they were clearing several blocks ahead of me ... that downgrade in both directions when you've gotta apply brake to keep the train from getting away from you was mighty scary the first 10-20 trips ... then again, so was trying to stop at Tremont southbound ...
I don't see a problem with allowing timers to clear in front of you. I dislike charging a red/lunar or passing the yellow/s. That tells you your train isn't under control. BTW how much of a reduction did you need for Fordham/Tremont on the ME23s and where did you start the braking?
Heh. Given hearing about so many adventurous souls on the railroad today who seem to like having them clear in their cab window (shudder) I thought I was too timid. And was told so by some fellow guys who I'd shoot the sheet with with the door open (you could do that back then) that I was a poosey, but fear of da ball was drilled into me well.
I worked R1/9's, it was my preference and they were only too happy to give them to me and because I worked lickety splits at the time, it was rare for me to have anything else. With the old cars, you'd pull 60 for those stops just as you were entering and then fan it off, usually taking 40 when you needed it and let it go as you got to the mark. My first two times into both stops, I damned near ran past the end and that made me even more fidgety.
Call me a wimp, but I'd have it down to 5 MPH and then have to release to get to the mark. Everyone told me look out for Tremont in particular. And yes, I admit it - I'd have to give it a notch to come up to the stop position more often than I'd want to admit. The R1/9's were tempermental and you'd need a few stops just to feel them out. Since my tour began out of Stillwell at just after 4:30, I'd usually have center track back south out of the Bronx ... same for the return trip out of Stillwell for the afternoon, but it's a whole lot easier northbound. I'd apply about 1/3 in on the uphill ...
40 pounds sounds like an over reduction, on railroad standards using 90 pound prake pipe. I can imagine back when I grew up in Kingsbridge, with the incandescent lighting, the conductors on the stirrups and that cloud of smoke. We are spoiled by SMEE for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if the TA is thinking about swings again. If it doesn't ruin most jobs, it will ruin personal lives. I wouldn't want to be the one commuting from the Poconos just to kill 4 hours in the city bvetween tricks.
With the R1/9's you had to be aggressive since air was all you had. You'd get it to start slowing down, then you'd back off. I'd imagine ripping a "shunt-enabled" controller three notches in a yank would also get some folks today skittish as well. :)
The absolute worst part of the splits was having nothing to do for 4-5 hours a day ... it'd be a horror if they were to be allowed to bring it back. And mind ya, Stillwell ain't exactly a garden spot day in, day out. And yeah, it wasn't fun even from the Bronx. Had I reported to *my* end of the D train instead of the OTHER end, wouldn't have been so bad - coulda gone home and napped.
AMUE equipment (LoV, R9, AB, D types) all carry 70 pounds
in the brake pipe. The maximum reduction is 20 pounds.
The 10 o'clock position on the gauge was 20? Wow ... I really am losing it ... coulda sworn it was 40 - I remember the tank needle being at 70 but thought the pipe needle was at 40 for a full service.
Nevermind ... brain cramp ... I go get some sleep. :)
The reservoir pressure should be between 85 and 105 pounds.
Normal brake pipe pressure is 70 pounds. Full service is
a 20 pound reduction, i.e. to 50 pounds BP.
Yeah, was at the end of a near 24 hour shift when I came by last night (finally got some sleep) and I read what you posted as something entirely else ... then about five minutes later, the words "REDUCTION" finally dawned on me and I realized I had made a monkey of myself. Like the instructions say, do not operate mechanical equipment when you're stupid from lack of sleep. :)
I rode on their Electroliner a few years ago during the ARM convention. They didn't take it out on the main line until after dark, since their electric bill is lower. A bunch of us were in the #2 end watching the ammeter (I guess that was the most exiting thing to watch since it was too dark to see the corn fields).
It was also night time when I operated their PCC on the trolley loop.
I take it that they've set up with the electric company to have their rates change depending on time of day - lower at off peak hours?
-Robert King
I didn't talk to the IRM people to see how their rates are set up, but I would assume it is similar to what we face at TMNY with Central Hudson. We have a Time-of-Use (TOU) meter. Weekdays 9am-9pm, there is a rate for both KWH and peak KW (the peak KW rate is also called the demand rate). At off-peak times, the KWH rate is lower and there is no demand rate. For our use, the demand rate is by far the largest component of the power bill if it is invoked. Therefore, we only power up the rectifier in off-peak times.
Speaking of demand meters.....
When we began operations at BSM in April 1970, Baltimore Gas & Electric (our power company, even today) installed a demand meter on the AC side of new substation.
We were running only the two-motored cars, controllers never went beyond series.
We played "nice & quiet" for the next 6 months and never exceeded the demand meter's setting. So, BG&E took it out and installed a regular old meter - that's still there, 31 years later and with a new, bigger substation (that fit in the same building we built in 1970).
Out came the four motored cars and the controllers went into the parallel points (in the proper places, of course).
The moral of this story is, be nice & quiet, and maybe your power company will discover you've never met the demand figure. It just might pay off.
Basically, from what I understand this setup (time of use and demand metering) does the following then:
- Lets you get a lower rate at off peak hours.
- Gives you a higher rate during peak hours.
- The demand meter will hit you with a BIG rate if you pull too much current during peak hours.
I suppose the ability to get a lower rate during off peak hours is good, but you do take the risk of being hit with a big bill if too much electricity gets pulled during peak hours (Precautions for preventing this?).
* It would be nice if Ontario Hydro offered these kind of billing arrangements in cottage country - it'd take a good chunk of the electricity bill in late fall...
-Robert King
>>> One thing though - you don't "Drive" a train, you "RUN" it <<<
True enough for American trains, but not so in Great Britain. :-)
Tom
Heh. Yeah, I've seen that term used over there. Well, if they've got steering wheels in their locomotives, how come they've had so many wrecks lately? Why, if you see a head-on about to happen, you just steer over to another track. :)
if you drive a train with IRM. Then you should get a job as a T/O for CTA or METRA.
So where did these old cars get stashed? They aren't sitting at the junction with the West End any longer. Did they go back to the SBK Yard?
-Stef
They are alive and well (Well.....Not that well) They are back at home (Or should I say they are still homeless) I think I worked too hard today......... Anyway, They are back at SBK awaiting their fate.
M.W.
In the midst of the GO on the 4 and 5, something that rarely occurs is happening, the 5 is running all night. Service is quite frequent right now on the 2/5.
The GO on the 4/5 centers on switch replacement at 138th St, GC.
-Stef
I have always been confused by the strange addresses that are found in Ridgewood between Forest Avenue and the Brooklyn border. Forest Ave. runs N-S between Metropolitan and Myrtle Aves. (This, of course, is a bit of an anomaly in itself, since Forest Ave. is a N-S street even though it is called "avenue".)
The numbered avenue just north of Metropolitan Ave. is 62nd Ave., so the addresses on Forest Ave. begin at 62-xx and increase as you go south. Forest Ave. is one block west of 60th Place, and falls in the grid in the place where a "59th St." would be, so the addresses on the E-W streets between Forest Ave. and 60th Pl. are all 59-xx.
So far so good. However, once you cross to the west of Forest Avenue, things get very strange.
One would expect that addresses on any block immediately west of Forest Ave. would be 58-xx, those on the next block over would be 57-xx, and so forth until the Brooklyn border.
But, no.
Instead, on the block immediately west of Forest Ave., you have addresses of 20-xx, followed on the next block by 19-xx, and on down to 16-xx. Furthermore, the N-S streets west of Forest Ave. do not have addresses of 62-xx and highter going south, as Forest Ave. itself does.; they have addresses which begin with 1-xx, and increase as you go south to 10-xx. (Also, in most un-Queens-like fashion, the addresses on the N-S streets other than Forest Ave. do not start with yy-01 with each new block.)
In trying to figure out why this is, I came up with a few possibilities.
The E-W streets that carry these strange addresses are all named streets which have continued into Queens from Brooklyn. So, it is a reasonable assumption to think that perhaps these addresses, while being anomalous for Queens, are meant to continue the Brooklyn addresses pattern.
But, this is not the case. As each of these named E-W streets leave Brooklyn, their addresses are all at different number levels, and not one of them is at 1600! So, the weird Ridgewood pattern can't be explained by an attempt at continuity with Brooklyn addresses.
Another possibility is that maybe the area west of Forest Ave. was once part of Brooklyn. These anomlous addresses are frequently written without their dashes, so they really "look like" Brooklyn addresses. So, I thought that maybe the border had been moved at some point relatively recently, and that perhaps the addresses we see in Queens preserve some older Brooklyn system.
But, this is not so, either. I have recently seen several maps from well before the consolidation of New York City; these maps reveal that Forest Avenue has long been part of Queens, and that the border between Kings and Queens counties hasn't moved in several hundred years (ever?).
So, I am hoping that someone knows why that area west of Forest Ave. has these strange addresses, despite the fact that addresses derived from the normal Queens grid would have fit just fine there.
(When I posted this question to misc.transport.road, Peter Rosa responded, wondering whether the strange address phenomenon had something to do with Ridgewood's ZIP code change in the 1970s. Could be, but I think this goes back much farther than that.)
Ferdinand Cesarano
>>> I have recently seen several maps from well before the consolidation of New York City; these maps reveal that Forest Avenue has long been part of Queens, and that the border between Kings and Queens counties hasn't moved in several hundred years (ever?). <<<
Why do you expect all the numbering in a county to be consistent? It is obvious that at one time the odd numbering was because of a starting point in a village, which grew into a contiguous urban area, and was not changed when it became part of New York City. The County of Los Angeles has more than 72 different cities, and virtually none of them coordinate their address numbers with adjacent cities.
Tom
Why do you expect all the numbering in a county to be consistent
Because it was created for the specific purpose of creating a consistent countywide numbering scheme in 1920.
It did NOT grow out of a single village.
It probably has something to do with Ridgewood's "Is it Brooklyn or is it Queens" dilemma. Some streets have Brooklyn addresses while others have Queens.
Historically, Ridgewood was located in both Brooklyn and Queens with approximate borders of Metropolitan Ave. on the north, the Bay Ridge freight line on the south and east and Knickerbocker Ave. on the south and west. In the last 30 years or so, however, the Brooklyn portion of Ridgewood is now considered to be part of Bushwick.
In addition, until the 1970's all of Ridgewood (Glendale too), even the portion clearly in Queens, was served by a Brooklyn Post Office (Zip Codes 11227 and 11237). I guess when the Streets were renamed, some addresses were given Queens numbers and some given Brooklyn numbers.
Ridgewood is like a world unto itself. It took me almot 2 hours to get home from Ditmrs yesterday (partly because of the shuttle bus along thre Astoria line. But once you get to Queens Plaze, they've moved all the buses, and the G of course, ends at Court Sq. which I wound up walking to.)
It looks like the Crew office is trying as much as possible to send us new T/O's to fairly close to where I live. So I'm getting the F alot, but the whole Queens Blvd. corridor and Jamaica, while centrally located to the rest of Queens, is very difficult from Ridgewood. Usually the M to Metropolitan and then two buses. Or the Q-58 which is extremely slow (both headways, and stops with all the people that do ride it, plus navigating the narrow streets and turns). Or go all the way around, via the L and J, or G, or all the way through Manhattan. But the TA, jury duty and many others assume because Ridgewood is Queens, it is close to those places.
It seems as separate towns, Ridgewood was a suburb of Brooklyn. It does use the northeast Brooklyn (Bed-Stuy/Bushwick) street grid, and is on the Brooklyn side of the great factory/cematary belt. This belt obvioulsy was the undeveloped region between the "greater" Brooklyn and Queens towns (Jamaica, LIC, Flushing) areas. (The main towns and their "suburbs"). So Ridgewood was connected with Brooklyn, but for some reason they made it apart of Queens co. (The line really should be along Forest. That's where it really changes from a Brooklyn like atmosphere to a Queens like one, even though some of the Bed-Stuy avenues continue a few blocks past to Fresh Pond and the LIRR).
But even our Brooklyn transit main line (Myrtle) was cut down, leaving us in this state of being only indirectly connected to everything, though near the very middle of the city.
So Ridgewood was connected with Brooklyn, but for some reason they made it apart of Queens co.
Back in 1683 when the counties were laid out, none of this was settled. Brooklyn was a small village on the East River centered around what is now Old Fulton Street. Brooklyn didn't expand to the area until 1854.
The boundaries likely have to do with property ownership at the time. I think they were straightened out to follow the street grid at some point.
>>> Because it was created for the specific purpose of creating a consistent countywide numbering scheme in 1920. <<<
What was created in 1920? Surely not the counties. Since counties are the basic subdivision of England, I would assume they were in place long before Independence.
Was there a reassignment of addresses in 1920? If so, what explains the anomaly in Ridgewood described by Ferdinand Cesarano?
Tom
What was created in 1920? Surely not the counties. Since counties are the basic subdivision of England, I would assume they were in place long before Independence.
What did I say? I said that it was created for the purpose of creating a countywide numbering scheme. I think that from the text I quoted we can assume that IT is the numbering.
What makes you so sure that counties haven't changed since 1776? The present-day boundaries of Queens County were established on January 1, 1899 with the creation of Nassau County.
What about all the states that were never part of England, yet still have counties?
Was there a reassignment of addresses in 1920?
Isn't that what I said?
If so, what explains the anomaly in Ridgewood described by Ferdinand Cesarano?
I thought that the whole purpose of the thread was to figure it out. That is until you came in thinking it was a product of different municipalities' systems like in Brooklyn.
[What about all the states that were never part of England, yet still have counties? ]
What state that was not a part of England uses English?
Arti
What state that was not a part of England uses English?
Florida and every state west of the Mississippi except for Oregon and Washington which were disputed between many countries including England and the US.
But they are now part of a country that was part of England. Not a very good example.
Arti
But they are now part of a country that was part of England. Not a very good example.
No, it is a very good example. Tom said that the counties were certainly their before the revolution because it is an English creation. I was giving an example of counties that could NOT have been from before the revolution. Next time read all of the posts, not just the one to which you're responding.
>>> What did I say? I said that it was created for the purpose of creating a countywide numbering scheme. I think that from the text I quoted we can assume that IT is the numbering. <<<
It seems that you have an ageist tendency to think all older people are senile. Way back when I went to a very useful school, I was taught that "it" was a pronoun used in place of a noun. Your use of the word was ambiguous, and that is why I asked for clarification. I think I clearly indicated that I did not think "it" referred to county, but your construction of your sentence was such that "it" appeared to be something separate from a countywide numbering scheme, which was created to create the scheme.
A better construction would have been "In 1920 an integrated countywide numbering system was implemented throughout Queens County." Remember, when in doubt, eschew obfuscation!
If that is what you meant, it implies that prior to 1920, addresses were local to the various communities in Queens County. If that is true, it appears that somehow Ridgewood did not participate in the change, possibly as suggested by another poster because the mail was delivered through Brooklyn.
>>> What makes you so sure that counties haven't changed since 1776? <<<
I do not think I stated or implied that counties had not changed since 1776. I did not believe Queens County was created in 1920.
>>> I thought that the whole purpose of the thread was to figure it out. That is until you came in thinking it was a product of different municipalities' systems like in Brooklyn. <<<
And just maybe it turns out that I was correct. :-)
Tom
It seems that you have an ageist tendency to think all older people are senile.
Or maybe it's you who think you're senile, why do you think I care how old you are?
Way back when I went to a very useful school, I was taught that "it" was a pronoun used in place of a noun. Your use of the word was ambiguous, and that is why I asked for clarification.
So you thought that the COUNTY was created for the purpose of a countywide numbering scheme?
I think I clearly indicated that I did not think "it" referred to county, but your construction of your sentence was such that "it" appeared to be something separate from a countywide numbering scheme, which was created to create the scheme.
By saying that "It did NOT grow out of a single village" which was counter to your claim of "It is obvious that at one time the odd numbering was because of a starting point in a village" it makes it even clearer to what "it" refers.
Since it would not be prudent to use a pronoun when the subject or object has not been specifically referred to before, why would you even jump to the conclusion that IT referred to something else entirely?
A better construction would have been "In 1920 an integrated countywide numbering system was implemented throughout Queens County." Remember, when in doubt, eschew obfuscation!
I quoted your text for the specific purpose of referring to it, instead of repeating things that have been said.
When someone asks you a question, do you always reply in complete sentences without using a single pronoun?
If that is what you meant, it implies that prior to 1920, addresses were local to the various communities in Queens County. If that is true, it appears that somehow Ridgewood did not participate in the change, possibly as suggested by another poster because the mail was delivered through Brooklyn.
It was also delivered through Brooklyn in Glendale, but apparently they still use the normal numbering scheme.
Not only was the question of why Ridgewood did not join the Queens numbering system-alone among areas on the Queens "mainland"-but it was also of the nature of the Ridgewood numbering scheme itself.
I do not think I stated or implied that counties had not changed since 1776. I did not believe Queens County was created in 1920.
You stated: "What was created in 1920? Surely not the counties. Since counties are the basic subdivision of England, I would assume they were in place long before Independence." You said counties, implying the current 62 counties or at least neighboring counties of Queens, neither of which is true.
And just maybe it turns out that I was correct. :-)
You still didn't answer the main question: "why 16-xx through 20-xx?"
Queens isn't really a "county", not since 1898. It's part of a city. It would really make sense if all of NYC had a unified system, but that ain't about to happen what with the many different street number systems. However, it is workable within at least most of Queens.
(Yes. I know all five boroughs are technically counties too, but they have very few governmental functions. The only real local government in NYC is the city.)
:-) Andrew
Putnam Avenue gets into the 1500s after Ridgewood Place, the last street it intersects with before hitting Wyckoff, in which the border runs.
If that is correct, then starting from 1600 at Wyckoff Avenue would be in order to start from a new range and not conflict with Brooklyn addresses.
I can assume that where the border is on Irving, the streets start from 1500?
Gates Avenue, the street which extends the furthest west, gets up to the 1500s.
Interesting. So my claim that 16-xx would not be continuous with the Brooklyn-side addresses on any of the border-crossing streets was incorrect; it would be continuous for Putnam and Gates. So, then, the rest of the streets' addresses were made to conform with those on Putnam and Gates?
So, am I to understand the current hypothesis to be something like this?: (say, what do you do if you need a question mark and a colon?)
today's Queens section of Ridgewood, while always legally a part of Queens County, was historically connected to Brooklyn and served by the Brooklyn Post Office; therefore, its addresses were at one time consistent with those in Brooklyn
when the borough-wide grid came in (which, by the way, I believe was in 1915, not 1920), all streets in the Ridgewood area were given addresses that were grid-like, in that the same address could be found on equivalent points on consecutive streets
16-xx was chosen as the common starting point because it was continuous the highest Brooklyn address on any of the streets in question; and this Queens area continued to be served by the Brooklyn Post Office until the 1970s
Well, this explanation is certainly highly plausible. Thanks for helping to work it out.
It is definitely true that the entire area "feels" like part of Brooklyn. In fact, when I lived on 101st Ave. in Ozone Park, there was a faded painted billboard just outside my window which advertised a hardware store. The address on the sign read, "65-[don't remember] Myrtle Ave., Bklyn.", even though that spot would be about a mile from the border. (Sorry, Kevin Walsh; the billboard has been painted over.)
I wouldn't mind seeing the addresses up there converted. I guess it would be a little inconvenient at first, but it seems that it would be simple enough, at least on the E-W streets. 16-xx through 20-xx would simply become 54-xx through 58-xx.
Of course, I don't think it could ever happen, mainly because on the N-S streets it wouldn't be so simple a replacement. There the addresses don't begin at yy-01 on each new block.
You could easily construct a pattern that would fit nicely in the Queens grid, though. I'd say that the 63-00 point on all the N-S streets should be placed at Bleecker or Menahan St. (whichever one of those streets marks that point on Fresh Pond Road). Then, you could increase/decrease the number before the dash by one digit about every two blocks.
That would probably give the N-S streets addresses beginning with 57-xx (for those streets which begin as far north as Flushing Ave.), running down to about 69-xx at Myrtle Ave. Now, these look like Queens addresses.
Anyway, does anyone know what are all the sections of Queens that have dashless addresses? The ones I can think of are Forest Hill Gardens and Jamaica Estates. Also, there are the two places where half of addresses are dashless -- Rockaway (on N-S streets only; the E-W streets use dashes based on the "backwards" progression of the numbered "Beach XX" streets) and Broad Channel (on E-W streets only; I believe the N-S streets use dashes and are numbered based on the intersecting numbered "Roads").
Ferdinand Cesarano
when the borough-wide grid came in (which, by the way, I believe was in 1915, not 1920), all streets in the Ridgewood area were given addresses that were grid-like, in that the same address could be found on equivalent points on consecutive streets
I think the Ridgewood street grid was put in earlier. Why would they have not renumbered it otherwise?
>>> Putnam Avenue gets into the 1500s after Ridgewood Place, the last street it intersects with before hitting Wyckoff, in which the border runs.
If that is correct, then starting from 1600 at Wyckoff Avenue would be in order to start from a new range and not conflict with Brooklyn addresses. <<<
Not having a street map of the area available, I am unable to understand why 16-xx would not conflict with Brooklyn addresses, but 58-xx, the expected numbering, would conflict. Please elucidate.
Tom
Ferdinand Cesarano gave a continuation of Brooklyn addresses as a possible explanation, others have concurred on the Brooklyn ties in Ridgewood. I didn't think it was necessary to repeat that.
I saw a Money Train rerun on cable. I had not seen the movie before.
I wish I hadn't bothered. I turned it off after 45 minutes...
Besides playing "how many mistakes can we find in the subway trains or stations portrayed," (including hearing door-chimes from an R30 etc.) and, of course, the fact that the Money Train doesn't look like that at all, I admit to being disgusted and annoyed with the lack of an intelligent plot. Iremember reading some of the posts here about that some time ago.
As we all learn from this movie, all transit cops get into fistfights with each other. They all talk with exaggerated Brooklyn accents. They sleep with each other (and the female ones have great "T and A" which is the reason the TA hired them). They can't put one sentence together without at least 10 curse words. They're incompetent jackasses with gunbelts.
Stereotypes are wonderful, aren't they? You can spend a lot of money on sets and special effects (and still not get it right on the simplest things, as this movie shows), and then use the stereotypes and idiotic dialogue to avoid having to put real effort into a good plot. And of course, scenes of gratuitous violence help chew up the 2 hours also...
I decided to write this post as a rant. It is unimportant in the scheme of things. Feel free to read, ignore, etc.
"bleed the brakes, so they can't stop us!"
Were there any R-142's running on the two line yesterday? I could only catch R142A's on the six line. Have the r-142's been pulled from service again.
no. remember that the 2 line is the longest irt line in the system, so it is a bit harder to catch them on that line. on weekends, R-142's on the 2 run lightly. but, you can catch them.
From what I heard, yes they have. Ill try to get more info about it later.........
but if you have heard that they were pulled from service, i have rode 6301-10 today and seen 6411-20.
There where pulled from service Friday Evening and also all day Saturday. The reason is hard to explain but they said they found something lose which could have caused the Car Body to seperate from the undercarage.
I think the problem should be currected as soon as possable since the No.2 would be short cars since a whole bunch of Redbirds are in the scrapper.
I forgot to also say this problem they found ONLY effects the R142 Bombardier car the R142A's are made diffrent in this area making it imposable for this to happen on a R142A KAW cars.
Boston Globe Story about Boston's new bridge.
Interesting, it is a cable stayed bridge, it's a new type of bridge. So the flaws have not been totally sought. The head of the big should have listened. The problem is now worse, but hey at least it can be fixed. If it was real bad the bridge would have to come down and that would make a lot of people mad.
Voids in concrete constitute a very common problem, one of the most common-but also preventable. Vigilance is always indicated.
It looks like the MTA is really pulling out all the stops with the Jamaica and Coney Island Terminals getting fully rehabed, and getting a whole truck load of new stuff. I have seen the pictures of what Jamaica Terminal is supposed to look like upon completion which is amazing. If it looks like that I am visiting just to see the complex. I saw the sketches of what Coney Island Terminal is gonna look like upon the rehab completion. It is me or will the "new" coney island terminal look like an old terminal with that type of glass layout. It looks real classy.
For the pictures of the "new" Jamaica Terminal
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/lirr/airtrain/images/airtrainpic1lg.gif
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/lirr/airtrain/images/airtrainpic2lg.gif
I think the effort for these two teminals are amazing. I hope they can come to the bronx and fix up our stations nicely. Maybe East 180 Street would look awesome with a dome or semi dome. It would really build up the neighborhood.
It will be beautiful.
There are plans to build a new hotel/conference center on top of the new Jamaica Station.
"There are plans to build a new hotel/conference center on top of the new Jamaica Station."
I'll bet some of those rooms will be rented by railfans if the windows overlook the approach to Jamaica !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Before the MTA eliminated double fares in the Rockaways, I suppose no one used the subway to commute between points in the Rockaways. Everyone had to pay a double fare entering a subway station and everyone had to pay another token to exit. So if you lived in Far Rockaway and wanted to visit friends in Rockaway Park, or go to the beach there, you'd have to pay THREE fares!
I guess everyone had to use the Q22 bus to commute between places in the Rockaways, even though it's slower and runs less frequently than the subway. (Of course, except overnights you would have to transfer trains in Broad Channel to get from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park.)
Craig
<
Over night they ran a round robin servic . I first went to Rockaway park and then to Far Rockaway. You had to pay three fares and youn got a slip at the token booth. When you got off a station in thje rockaways or Broad Channel you got one token back. The Green bus stopped running at 1 am,
The A train runs on average every 24 minutes during the midday hours. The Q22 runs every 15 minutes.
I still think that it's strange that you wait longer for a train at 12 noon than you would at 2 am when the trains run "only" every 20 minutes.
No you did NOT have to pay three fares. When you entered you went to the token booth and told the station agent you were getting off in the Rockaways, and you got a slip that would let you exit and get one token back at your destination station.
I used to do it all the time in the 1960's when I had relatives in Far Rockaway and we would go to the Playland station. Wehated riding the Green Bus Lines GM old look buses that always stunk of exhaust fumes and were loaded with cockroaches!!!
I've read that the Smith/9th Street station in Brooklyn is the highest elevated station since the tracks must be elevated enough to allow ship traffic to go beneath the subway through the nearby Gowanus Canal.
I had also heard the 168th Street station on the A/1 lines in upper Manhattan was the deepest station.
I recently caught a train at the 63rd Street/Lexington station on the Queensbridge line. I was amazed at how many levels I had to descend to get to the tracks, which only few blocks away have to go under the East River. So I wonder where this station, opened only a few years ago, ranks in depth.
Craig
+
It's about the same depth as the Flushing Line is at Grand Central. Check out the escallator at the Third Ave. end of the station to see.
(Also, the deepest station is 191st on the 1/9, on 168th)
While 190th Street-Overlook Terrace is the deepest station within the IND.
on which line (s) operate the deepest & highest ??
maybe if anyone knows this the highest & deepest usa rail system ( station ) are there & what cities / lines ??
lol....!!
I've read that the Smith/9th Street station in Brooklyn is the highest elevated station since the tracks must be elevated enough to allow ship traffic to go beneath the subway through the nearby Gowanus Canal.
Smith-9th is the highest station above the level of the surrounding ground. It is not, however, the highest station above sea level. That title probably belongs to one of the White Plains Road stations near the end of the 2 line; while they're not particularly high above ground level, the ground itself is at a fairly high elevation above sea level.
Going by elevation above sea level, the subway stations in Chicago are higher than Smith-9th by several hundred feet. And the light rail system in Denver would have us all beat. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
...and using sea level would probably make Roosevelt Island the lowest. The stations in Washington Heights are far below street level, but the streets above are on hills. Many of the "deep" stations are no more than one level below the elevation of nearby streets not on the hills, and are in fact accessible through "side entrances" just one level above.
CG
Explore www.nycsubway.org and you'll find the answer.
(highest) 125th and (deepest) 191st
.... on the 1/9 .
Much much was the nickel fare in todays dollars when it was first implemented and when it was next raised?
I did see a chart once (New York Times?) that showed what the fare would have been in constant (1999-2000?) dollars. The nickel fare of 1904 was the equivalent of about 95 cents in our money. I'm sure that there must be reference sources easily available that show the value of a dollar over the last century.
The chart did show that, as the nickel fare was held over the next forty years, the real cost of a ride dropped quite drastically. I believe the fare went to 10 cents in 1948 (the equivalent of about 50 cents today?).
The city forced the IRT and BMT to maintain the nickel fare after WWI, despite increasing costs which led both companies to seek afare hike. Both systems maintained that rate, even through periods of receivership, for the next 22 years. Once the city took over, the nickle fare lasted all of eight years.
As for the Times' chart, if you go by that, inflation has raised the cost of things in New York 19x in the last 97 years, from five cents to 95 cents. I believe the cost of Monday-Saturday The New York Times in 1904 was two cents, so under that equasion it should be about 38 cents right now ... what? You mean it's not 38 cents? It's more? Does that mean an imminent price reduction for the Times is in the works, to get the paper more in line with inflation rates over the past century?
Well, I think 50 or maybe 60 cents is enough to pay for a newspaper. But then again, the Times gives you articles like this, chosen from the "Dining In" section of July 18, 2001: "In France, It's Finally Time for Tea; Iced Teas Laced With Violet, Melon, and Rosemary are Summer Hits." Only America's Paper of Record could provide you with such vital foreign affairs info.
Only America's Paper of Record could provide you with such vital foreign affairs info.
What do you expect from the paper that called the Good Guy Awards pointless?
best post of the night
Quit yelling, the Teamsters need their sleep.
>>> The nickel fare of 1904 was the equivalent of about 95 cents in our money. <<<
That's way too low. That was before Henry Ford shocked corporate America by paying $5.00 per day to his workers, and the most expensive restaurant meals cost $1.25. A working man with a family might earn $600-$700 per year working twelve hour days.
A quote from "The Impact of The IRT on New York City" by Clifton Hood elsewhere on this site is illustrative:
"The IRT played a limited role in relieving the overcrowded slum districts. For the most part, unskilled workers remained behind in the residential areas that provided easy access to their jobs in the central cities. These lowly paid laborers were unable to afford the nickel subway fare. Since wives and children often worked in addition to adult males, the cost of commuting would have been higher for poor families than for families of better means in which adult males were more likely to be the sole wage earners."
At the end of the nickel fare, I equate it to a candy bar. This because sometimes I had to make a choice between taking the subway, or buying a candy bar and walking (or hopping the turnstile). In 1946 the cost of a candy bar went briefly from 5˘ to 6˘, but dropped back to 5˘ when the candy makers decided it was easier to adjust the amount of candy rather than boost the price a penny. Now if you compare the price of a single subway ride to a candy bar (about 55-65˘) it is clear that in 1948 the subway was underpriced at a nickel.
Tom
Using $0.05 as a base, and then adding in 97 years of inflation, you get very different answers depending on what you use as your average inflation rate...
2.5% -- $0.56
3.0% -- $0.88
3.5% -- $1.41
4.0% -- $2.24
CG
To interpret the nickel to now you need to know starting and ending points, because the fare structure has changed.
(Not counting Metrocard discounts)
In 1904 someone traveling from Brighton Beach to Times Square paid 10 cents. (5c each to IRT and BRT). In 2001 $1.50. Increase: 15x
From City Hall to Times Square: 5 cents in 1904, $1.50 in 2001. Increase: 30x
Let's try 1964 to 2001:
Penn Station to South Ferry: 15 cents to $1.50. Increase: 10x
Penn Station to Flatbush Ave/Ave U: 30 cents to $1.50. Increase: 5x
Penn Station to Tottenville: 55 cents to $1.50. Increase: 2.72x
That phrase "today's dollars" is very tricky. There are various
indices of inflation. Different things have inflated at different
relative rates over the years. For example, the relative price
of labor to raw material acquisition has increased dramatically.
I think the best way to understand the impact of the transit fare
is from the customer's perspective. IIRC, a trolley conductor
in 1900 on the BRT made 20 cents per hour. This was considered
a skilled job, not "minimum wage" (which of course didn't exist yet).
So the fare (and as Paul M. pointed out, often several of them
were needed) was 15 minutes worth of wages. Today's $1.50 fare
isn't even 15 minutes of minimum wage, let alone a skilled job.
So the pocket hit of the 1904 fare was probably at least twice
what it is today.
(Today's $1.50 fare isn't even 15 minutes of minimum wage, let alone a skilled job. So the pocket hit of the 1904 fare was probably at least twice what it is today.)
Isn't the minimum wage still $5.15? That would put a $1.37 fare (with discount) at 15 minutes of the minimum wage.
I honestly don't know what minimum wage is right now. I thought
it was closer to $6.00. At any rate, my point was in 1904 the nickel
fare was 15 minutes worth of skilled labor time. That would make
it at least 30 minutes, if not more, of a minimum wage worker's time.
Well said.
There are many things which make A-B comparisons difficult. At turn of the 20th century, five cents was a big bite for many laborers. People often walked several miles to work to save a nickel street car fare. That in itself says more than inflation charts.
Consider also how difficult it was to provide service and make a profit for five cents. True, the five cent fare was initially lucrative for the IRT, but you have to consider what a limited amount of service you had available without having to dig in for another nickel.
The LIRR tried hard to make a go of rapid transit service, but they charged a dime, and eventually couldn't compete with streetcars for a nickel, even if the RR was significantly faster.
True, the "real" cost of living is sort of an average; it doesn't take into account how various items - including wages - rise in cost (or even drop sometimes) at different rates. As Old Tom pointed out, the nickel fare was a real bargain in 1948. Probably that was much less true in 1904. The big jump in "real" wages - wages going up faster than inflation - occurred after World War II and continued until about 1970.
The federal government site What's a Dollar Worth? will help with at least one way of calculating. Unfortunately, it only goes back to 1913, but the total difference in CPI between 1904 and 1913 is statistically insignificant compared to the difference between 1913 and 2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's some pics of the R68, r49, & r27 skin pics MSTS.
http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite/nycsubwaycarsskinspics.msnw
I will be working on teh interior of the cars and try to do the same for the cabs.
Also will draw a TO for each car and set the headlights in the correct places.
I will start makeing sample skins for R36 (readbirds), R142, R143. In the future
I will make skins for all nyc subway cars that apear in all lines , including the bmt cars.
I will post more pics later. I took a break on working on the Brighton line route and did a culver shuttle
route, since it's a small route, with AI F trains stoping at ditmas ave.
Once done with some skins I will post them later for downloads and a readme file at the msn ms train sim fan site
I tried to gwet into their web site and got an error:
Server Application error. The server has reached the Maximum number of
the application limit for your request.
In non-technish what does this mean
I've pasted the info below:
Server Application Error
The server has reached the maximum recovery limit for the application during the processing of your request. Please contact the
server administrator for assistance.HTTP/1.1 500 Server Error Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0 Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:02:22
GMT Content-Type: text/html Content-Length: 93 The remote procedure call failed.
I can't answer your specific question, but from my experience there is something not quite right with the new NJ Transit web site. I have been using it several times when, out of nowhere, the screen freezes up on me and leaves me stuck. I haven't had that trouble on other sites or the old NJ transit site - just the new one.
It means too many users making trip/schedule requests at the same time.
Today
From June
I didn't ride the train today, but did some shooting on the "el".
I caught an M&K GOH 10 car R-32 train on the (A).
Also a train of 8 R-38s and 2 R-32s on the (A). The R-32s were the north motors.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anyone know who is qualified to run the nostalgia train and who usually runs it?
Don't know exactly who is the T/O, but the person has to be miscellaneous qualified. And the General Supt. (South division) assigns the job, not the crew office.
I do personally know the Nostalgia Train C/R (lucky bastard).
From talking to one of them there are only 3 T/O's qualfied on the D-Types and the TA requires 2 of them for any move. They post a G.O. for the move, the last one I got a peak at had Two T/O's, a qualified C/R (How many are still qualified to stand between cars and open doors?) a TSS and someone from Div C all have to be on the train.
When will future nostalgia trains run?
"When will future nostalgia trains run?"
Next year ! All three specials have run this summer. However, there is a fan trip with the D-Types on August 26,2001. This trip leaves from the BMT Chambers St. station at 10:30am on the above date.
This is a trip run as a fund raiser for the March of Dimes. Adult tickets are $35.00 each. Tickets may be sold on day of the trip unless this trip is a sellout. Perhaps someone here may shed some light on who to contact for info.
Bill "Newkirk"
Argh! I'll be in Boston August 24 - 26!!!
Does anyone per chance know of a good MBTA fan trip, or just a trip in general??
If it's a MBTA fan trim Im coming.
Buy a day pass and do all the colors ... on a Sunday the connections aren't bad and the regulars are home.
Mr t__:^)
Too bad they don't do these fantrips on weekdays, such as in late October.:-( I'd give anything to ride on the Triplexes just once.
*:Please note I am not trying to diss,screw or hurt anyone by posting this.
*Chrystie st and 63 st:I posted an editorial a few weeks back stating is the Broadway tracks of the 63 street connector going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connector,most of the responces say yes.They're going to wait until the 2nd avenue line is built.That tells me yes.What if the 2nd avenue line never comes,what then.Is this another case of buying too soon?
2nd avenue:Speaking of the 2nd avenue line, I was thinking.It would be cool if the MTA built the line after so many complaints from the communities,and no one used it. :D
Buying too soon?
I am hoping that the 63rd tunnel is a success.
Naturally, we can all point out the pros and cons of it before it opens full time.
My main problem with it, is that it should have gone up to 68th to connect there with the 6 train, and it all would have made much more sense.
If nothing else, the Broadway connection to the 63rd Street tube is a superb relief valve. If there is a problem on 6th Avenue, trains can be rerouted. Also, if construction is necessary, there are alternatives so that service can continue. These situations have already happened.
The kind of flexibility in operations this allows is just what our fellow SubTalkers are calling for around the DeKalb area, such as a connection between the Manhattan Bridge lead tracks and Rutgers tunnel.
Who in the what now? Cool is hot, right is wrong.
i saw on the TV news today another amtrak train derailing off its tracks again. This time it seemed like this one was not as bad &
was glad to see this time no serious injuries ( on the channel 2 cbs news here ) Am i the only one who seems to notice that
there just seems to be way a bit too much of these derail(s) going on & far too many of them these days ?? hmm!!....??
Not AMTRAK's fault. Not AMTRAK's track. G-d bless AMTRAK. They try so hard.
If the airlines had to rely on airport maintenance by companies who didn't want planes to land there, you'd see a lot more air crashes.
That, in effect, is what Amtrak has to put up with.
I'm lost! Help me understand what you just written Ron? In other words, what do you mean Amtrak has to put up with it?
N/W Bwy
What Imean is, Amtrak doesn't own any ROW outside the Northeast Corridor. So it is dependent on maintenance and operations help from the railroad which owns the tracks. These railroads can be hostile to Amtrak, and they can be poorly run. Amtrak suffers the consequences.
Airports, on the other hand, are not run by entities hostile to airlines (usually not, anyway).
"What Imean is, Amtrak doesn't own any ROW outside the Northeast Corridor. So it is dependent on maintenance and operations help from the railroad which owns the tracks. These railroads can be hostile to Amtrak, and they can be poorly run. Amtrak suffers the consequences."
hmmm. I did not know this!! WOW! Who are these railroads? Are they passenger services or Freight? How can Amtrak buy the rights to these tracks? Is there any discussion on this - congress, company negotiations, or users of Amtrak service?
N/W Broadway Lines
"Who are these railroads? Are they passenger services or Freight? How can Amtrak buy the rights to these tracks?"
For the most part, outside of the NEC Amtrak runs on the tracks of the freight railroads. Right near a few of the largest cities, they may run part of the way on tracks owned by commuter authorities (like Metra in Chicago) but ninety-something percent of the non-NEC trackage is the freights.
Amtrak has the right to run on these tracks; the issue is that the dispatching is done by freight company employees, who know which side their bread is buttered on. When it comes down to a 70mph Amtrak train versus a 70mph intermodal freight owned by the company that pays your salary, which will you choose to go ahead and which will end up waiting in a siding?
Could Amtrak buy the tracks out from under the freights? Theoretically, of course they could. But practically:
1) The government barely appropriates enough money for Amtrak to keep it running with what it has. Buying tracks would cost hundreds of millions that Amtrak doesn't have and would be better off spending on more rolling stock if it DID have it -- Amtrak is eternally short of cars, and, with ridership and fares where they are, could double its number of trains tomorrow but for the fact that it has almost NO spare cars.
2) The freights would raise holy hell over the prospect of losing control over their tracks and would lobby the bejeezus out of Congress to block the purchase. And to be fair to them, most lines outside the NEC have a LOT more freight traffic than Amtrak traffic, and it makes a certain amount of sense for the operator with the most traffic to own the tracks and regulate traffic.
A possible solution would be for the freights to keep their tracks but Amtrak would pay them more money and tie the payments to on-time dispatching of trains -- too many late trains, and we hold back some of the payment. But that takes serious money to have full impact, and (as I said above) Amtrak gets only the bare minimum it needs to survive.
clarifications are in order here.
1. Amtrak's "right" to operate was the payoff to the RR co's for 'relieving' them of the legal necessity of passenger service.
2. ATK DOES have incentive contracts, but the freight co's insist on heavily padded schedules, so they collect most of the time. If you counsellor had written these contracts, you would be embarrassed by the lack of rigor.
3. "70 mph intermodal freight" HA! look at the performance measures section of the websites of any of the big four. average intermodal is closer to 35mph.
4. As is pointed out repeatedly in both the 'business' and rail press, the freight RR's in general have abysmal schedule reliability even for the so called 'major customers'. They basicly can't/won't run on time no matter who writes the checks.
5. You are absolutely correct about the funding problem. ATK is treated like a 'welfare mother' bt Congress while they 'p**s' billions away on DOD garbage. Between the right wing ideologues who hate money for anyone below their class and the countervailing, "save the train in my district but don't talk to me about principles" votes ATK is permanently starved and forced to run more service than they can afford (even if they were perfect)
Even people who rail against DoD can lose their principles when DoD says, "we're closing bases, and we're starting with yours."
What about adding 2 additional tracks that will be for Amtrak purposes only?
N/W Bwy
A nice idea - so long as the ROW could be secured, property acquired if a property line were crossed - not to mention Amtrak having the budget to do it. In practical terms, difficult to accomplish.
Also, for long-distance trains where Amtrak runs at most one or two trains per day, or a line where Amtrak only runs three times a week, separate Amtrak ROW is not cost-effective.
Hold on here. If the freight lines are hostile to Amtrak, that is one thing. To allow the track and infrastructure to deteriorate in order to hurt Amtrak is very self defeating to the point of suicide, right? They use the same tracks, so they better keep them operating at peak form or else not only will their trains get held up, but the FRA and NTSB will ride them like government mules to force them to correct the situation. Keeping the tracks in good shape so that Amtrak can use them also helps the freight lines, since track good enough for passengers should be good enough for freight.
I agree with your logic, but the freight railroads don't always follow it.
Do you remember the way Southern Pacific always operated? Ten locomotives to run a freight train because they knew four of the locos would go dead en route and you needed six working locos to haul the extra dead weight! And they had some pretty bad ROW, too.
I think part of the problem is this: If a freight train derails, what the hell, it's freight. Cost of doing business. "If we don't fix the ROW today, we can always get to it later" (again, you and I don't agree with that) If an Amtrak train derails, passengers can sue. That's why some RR's don't like Amtrak...
Let some smart lawyer point out to the court that these activities constitute restraint of trade,and when the judge proceeds to give them hell, the freight lines will scramble to make improvements. All of them have an Achilles' heel, you just need to know how to get at it.
I found out tonight that the motorman / engineer / operator put on his brakes but was not able to stop ahead of the rain soaked
damaged tracks which ws the cause of the derailment & why this relly happened !! ( cbs channel 2 tv los angeles ) ...
As much as the media tries to slander Amtrak under the circumstances, 10 minor injuries out of 180 is pretty damned good. They didn't say how many car accidents the 5" of rain caused on the parallel highways.
The chances of being killed on a train are exceedingly small, even if you are on a train which derails.
You should realize that there are so many people killed on the highways by automobiles that it is no longer news. Someone gets killed on the roads every day - most people except the families of the victims just pass it off. A train derailment is infrequent, and that generates inquiry.
Whose RR was the Amtrak running on ?
Whose RR was the Amtrak running on ?
Union Pacific’s DeSoto Subdivision
What a mess that's going to be to clean up. Much re-routeing will be envoled.
One of the reason Amtrak gets a lock of flack when someone gets injured in a crash, is because, they are responsible for everyone's safety when they board their trains. Compare that with someone getting there own self into an accident. Unlike a private company, they are responsible for their own safety, not the company itself.
N/W Broadway
Yes, and sometimes when the dumbbellcauses the accident due to their own idiocy, they will file a lawsuit to try to get money from whomever they can, figuring that the opportunity to make money has arrived.
sometimes when the dumbbell causes the accident due to their own idiocy, they will file a lawsuit to try to get money from whomever they can
Like the woman last week who left a Pop Tart in the toaster when she drove her kids to school and is suing Kelloggs and Black and Decker for the fire.
Now my queston is why should I pay for the stupidity of others?
She's probably doing it because her home insurance carrier read the Fire Dept. report, and told her that due to this act of her own stupidity a check would not be forthcoming.
May she fall flat on her face. What nerve!
I read the same thing in the paper yesterday. Amtrak P42 #76 appears undamaged since she tipped over on her side. Even though the wreck was a unfortunate incident, I don't blame Amtrak entirely, but they could have at least warned the crew about all the heavy rains and impose a speed restriction.
I don't blame Amtrak entirely, but they could have at least warned the crew about all the heavy rains and impose a speed restriction.
That's the responsibility of the freight road's dispatchers... they could have notified the crew directly (their first priority) and (as a second priority) notified Amtrak's control center of conditions. Although we don't know what exactly transpired in this case, it would appear from what has been made public that this didn't happen. UP's folks were obviously aware of the washout but communications broke down somewhere.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The station has a crazy blue and orange stripe thing going on. I kinda like it, but it doesn't match the rest of the IND. Seems like it is painted on, or is a strip of tape, than being made up of individual tiles. Maybe I'll post a pic of it I took today.
It's a metal strip. At the eastern end of the Manhattan bound platform, you can see a small section where it is missing, and underneath is blue-purple vertical rectangular tiles, like at Grant Av. (The stations were done at the same time)
The intertwining orange and blue lines are cool, but as the E no longer goes there, it is outdated.
I thought that station was built along with the rest of the line. It does look kind of like Grant, though. When were the stripes installed? Mid-70's?
"I thought that station was built along with the rest of the line. It does look kind of like Grant"
Jamaica-169th St. was the terminus before the extension to 179th St. The old destination signs on the R1-9s originally had 169th on them before the extension.
Bill "Newkirk"
If 169th Street was originally the terminus, why was it built as a local station?
- Lyle Goldman
Speaking of which, are there any termini other than 179th that have both local and express tracks terminating? Now that all service out there is local, how is it decided where to terminate each train?
Main Street on the 7 comes to mind.
I go to 179 alot with a Motorman i know. I am not sure if this is exactly how it works, but lets say a F comes into 169 to the X4 homeball. The Motorman is supposed to press a bell by the signal letting 179 supervision that hes there. he is then given his indication, if there is clearance for him in 179. bottom yellow sends him over to the express track, entering him on the middle track. Entering 179 on the middle, means u can only relay on the upper level middle tracks. If X4 gives you a bottom green, u go straight ahead. To prevent Motormen from getting parallel position happy doing maximum speed, there is a timer if u enter 179 on the local track. Needless to say, u can still fly into 179 unless there is a train leaving entering the relay area. Entering 179 on the local gives access to the yard on the lower level, and all trains relay via the lower level. so its middle track=upper level. Track against the wall=lower level.
Everything you say is correct.
Note: on your point that some T/O's punch at 169, the Tower Operator HATES IT when the punch is used at 169 since he/she has to listen to a loud buzzer for absolutely no reason. The TW/O can see that a train is at 169 on the model board. The punch is ONLY to be used when there is two different services operating to 179.
I don't think it was designed as the terminus, the line was just extended their "temporarily" for 15 years.
I once was told that the line was supposed to continue down Hillside Av. to Springfield Blvd, which is the reason Hillside Av. opens into a wide plaza there. The center area of the plaza was once used for parking spaces.
Bob Sklar
That is plausible. The line could still be extended today. The tracks end at about 182-3 St or so. There are no other subway lines in the area, and you can build without disrupting train service. Three to four years of construction, $75 million budget, and you could have a new F terminal at the 190 St or so (or whichever intersection would make sense for one). Given the housing density around there, and the people who use transit, NIMBY wouldn't be much of a problem until well past the 200's.
Of course this would compete with other projects for Capital Plan inclusion. Some of you have posted regarding an extension of the IRT past Brooklyn College and down Flatbush Av. A splendid idea, I think.
Let me up the budget figure a bit: if they only extend two tracks, one could see it done for $75-85. To extend the four track tunnel, the cost would be higher.
Hey!
I've never heard you to advocate anything less than 4 tracks :-)
Arti
Four tracks are preferable to two.
Two tracks are preferable to NONE.
If they build, we've WON.
Hey, it rhymes! :0)
But which is preferable, two tracks today and two tracks tomorrow or no tracks today and four tracks tomorrow?
I'd prefer the latter.
If the two-track line is going to be built, it should be built with future expansion to four tracks in mind. For instance, it could be built under the west side of 2nd Avenue, leaving room for two more tracks under the east side.
In this case, I think you mean the north or south side of Hillside Avenue, since that is the line in question.
:) Andrew
Whoops. I got my threads tied up in a knot. I thought we were discussing 2nd Avenue. Sorry.
Hillside only has local service right now anyway. Unless there are plans to change that, I don't see the need to spend money on a four-track extension. Provisions for later expansion would always be nice, though.
Agreed.
I'd love to see the (F) extended as far as possible. Springfield Blvd would be great, but even just to say Francis Lewis Blvd would be a help.
:-) Andrew
Back in the day when I was living in QV, I was thinking it would have been so much better if they extended the line past 179th. Check out my fantasy stations:
187 ST
195 ST
201 ST
Francis Lewis Boulevard
A silly idea I know, but when you live in a two fare zone, you dream about better service.
I don't think it's a silly idea at all. If it's "never gonna happen", then it's city who's silly.
I'd have less stations myself. My idea:
188th St.
Hollis-197th St.
Francis Lewis Blvd.
212 St.
Queens Village-Springfield Blvd.
And if it kept going...
Winchester Blvd.
Commonwealth Blvd.
Little Neck Pkwy
Floral Park-265 St.
If it were 4 track, I'd make Springfield and Little Neck Pkwy the only express stops. I'd be more than satisfied with a 2 track line though.
:-) Andrew
I like your suggestions better. Now if the MTA would only approve it.
Get a petition of Subytalkers together, and send it in. Why the hell not?
"187 ST
195 ST
201 ST"
These stations are too DAMN! close!!!!
Francis Lewis Blvd from 179th Street is a better bet!!!
N/W Byw
would love to see Hillside[subway] pushed further along,but i think the TA would say nay to this.WHY? Feeder buses, plus noone asking for it,like their screaming for the 2 ave line. It's a damn good idea though,Q1,2,36 wouldn't be so full all the time, not to mention Q77[UH.
The thing is, the Capital Investment for 2000-2004 doesn't allow enough money to fund the imaginary project that is going around. The MTA is spending literally over $1.9 billion on improvements of the subway system. There should be now no complaints, because the MTA is trying their best. Among the topics of modernization include:
1) Subway cars (Subway cars make up the most, about $1 billion is being spent)
2)Track switches
3)Track signals
4)Wall tiles (have to check the site again)
5)Repairing of stations' infrastructures
6)New track
7)New lighting
8)Painting (have to check the site again)
9)Misc. Restoration.
All of this money and complete installation of equipment is scheduled as we speak and will finish around 2003-2004.
The thing is, the MTA is not planning on digging any more subway tracks, and among the non-used express tracks and extensions of stations, the MTA can easily construct express rails within the extended platforms if they ever need be needed. (From the helpful site compiled by David Pirmann)
If the Subway is going to extend, it is because of ridership demands or the actual amount of population in that area. The $75 million imaginary budget will not get you very far down the tracks because new scheduling, platform building, tiles, painting, I-beams, dispatcher's office, actual construction of station platform (mezzanine, ticket booth, turnstiles, stairways, elevators, etc. will take all of the budget away.
And of course, the MTA construction crew CANNOT build a station underground. If you took notice, ALL of the stations in the unified subway today were built from an above ground condition. We must think about the logic before planning, but imaginary thoughts would be creative!
: )
Railfan Pete.
You're right, Pete. This would be a project for the future, if it had enough support and demand for it.
The station itself would be built as a cut and cover project, and the tunnel too, most probably.
But a "non-complicated" eight-block tunnel (in contrast to the 63rd St Connector) with no current subway traffic to worry about, or complicated ramp geometries could certainly be built for well under $100 million. I beams and all.
You mentioned an extension of the IRT Flatbush Ave. line - is there some kind of water condition underground that is the reason for the line ending where it does at present? At least, that is what I heard in the past as the reason for why there is no subway line past a certain point on Flatbush Ave. in Brooklyn.
I haven't heard about that - but if true, that could certainly be an impediment. A high water table could complicate even an elevated structure if piles have to go beyond a certain depth.
Would there be another routing possible for that area?
Most of southern Brooklyn is swampy flat land, as in "Flatlands."
Yes, it is. Thank you for reminding me.
You mentioned an extension of the IRT Flatbush Ave. line - is there some kind of water condition underground that is the reason for the line ending where it does at present? At least, that is what I heard in the past as the reason for why there is no subway line past a certain point on Flatbush Ave. in Brooklyn.
Water might be an issue. In addition, there wasn't much of a population base south of the current Flatbush Avenue terminal when the line was built around 1920.
Southeast Brooklyn is flat and was marshy back in ye olden days, which might make tunnel supports a little tricker to handle. But that would likely be offset by the absence of all that lovely hard-to-drill-through rock in north Brooklyn and most areas of the city above the line where the last ice-age glaciers stopped their southerly advance. (obviously, the glaciers got to New York, said "Why do we need to go on south to Philadelphia? There's so much to see and do here," and called it a milennium after that...)
IIRC there was every intention of extending the line further. Otherwise, they would have built the Flatbush Ave. station with an island platform instead of the side platforms it wound up having.
No. The IRT terminated the Nostrand Avenue Line at Flatbush Avenue because they ran out of money.
- Lyle Goldman
You make a good point, but my fantasy line is just that. A fantasy. I don't expect the MTA to start construction because those of us who live east of 179 are sick of taking the bus. I remember how the subway was back in the 80's. I'll be the first one to tell NYCT that they have brought the bus and subway system back from a state of disgrace, and I thank them for that.
According to Motormen on the F, and i have seen it at www.subwaywebnews.com, starting maybe next pick or when the V comes out, they plan to send some E's to 179th. I dunno wether local or exp. i hope exp. Sometimes i ride the F from 179 to parsons for a Railfan trip. and it does take a while....
Actually, the TA's bottom line, which covers only operating expenses, would benefit by extending the line eastward. The operating costs for a train are approximately $48/revenue-mile and the operating costs for a bus are approximately $12/revenue-mile. The point is that there are more than 4 buses per train that originate east of 179th St.
These buses run east-west until the reach their north-south artery. These bus routes would be truncated at Hillside, when the subway would be extended. Less mileage would also translate to fewer buses required and could free up some capital funds by shifting them from the surface division to rail operations.
Bus passengers used to mean extra income prior to the fare reduction. At this point the game is how to move passengers from point A to point B in the least expensive manner. The present per mile operating expenses would indicate that extending the line beyond Springfield Blvd would not bring in any marginal gain, based on looking at a bus map.
The public, of course, would want to know how long the payout due to decreased operating costs would be to cover the investment. That would determine whether the monies should be spent as increased capital or operating costs. However, the TA has never had any difficulty in capitalizing what should be legitimate operating costs.
I agree completely. This would be a worthy project.
"These buses run east-west until the reach their north-south artery. These bus routes would be truncated at Hillside, when the subway would be extended. Less mileage would also translate to fewer buses required and could free up some capital funds by shifting them from the surface division to rail operations."
Or the TA can increase the frequency of bus service with the same # of buses, since each makes a shorter trip.
Or the TA can increase the frequency of bus service with the same # of buses, since each makes a shorter trip.
The purpose for extending the rail line is to reduce operating costs, with the ultimate goal of turning a profit or barring that at least of achieving a positive cash flow. The operating cost reduction is achieved by substituting rail service for bus service in these very unusual circumstances. To compensate for reduced bus mileage by running the buses more freqently will not reduce bus mileage and would increase operating cost.
"To compensate for reduced bus mileage by running the buses more freqently will not reduce bus mileage and would increase operating cost."
Yes; bus operating costs will remain the same, actually (but they would not drop) however, bus ridership has been increasing since the two-zone fares were axed and bus service may not be keeping up with ridership. So by increasing frequency by leaving the number of buses the same MTA would help riders. If this, in turns, encourages more ridership, MTA would see more money at the farebox or Metrocard sales officesw.
Most real world corporations undertake capital expenditures to improve their bottom line by decreasing per unit operating costs and/or by increasing revenues. Extending the Hillside Ave Line beyond 179th St can achieve cost savings because of rather unique circumstances. To extend the line and then not to reduce expenses is financially irresponsible.
"Most real world corporations undertake capital expenditures to improve their bottom line by decreasing per unit operating costs and/or by increasing revenues."
MTA is not a private corporation. It is a public agency run for the public benefit.
"Extending the Hillside Ave Line beyond 179th St can achieve cost savings because of rather unique circumstances."
Yes, that's true, and if the line were extended, MTA might legitimately choose to do that. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm saying they should weigh the options.
"To extend the line and then not to reduce expenses is financially irresponsible."
For a private corporation, that's true. For MTA, not necessarily. And I would hope MTA would not be as dogmatic, narrow-minded and arrogant as you would be about a decision like that.
MTA is not a private corporation. It is a public agency run for the public benefit.
From NYS Public Authorities Law regarding the New York City Transit Authority.
S 1202. Purposes of the authority. 1. The purposes of the authority shall be the acquisition of the transit facilities operated by the board of transportation of the city, the operation of transit facilities in accordance with the provisions of this title for the convenience and safety of the public on a basis which will enable the operations thereof, exclusive of capital costs, to be self-sustaining...
"S 1202. Purposes of the authority. 1. The purposes of the authority shall be the acquisition of the transit facilities operated by the board of transportation of the city, the operation of transit facilities in accordance with the provisions of this title for the convenience and safety of the public on a basis which will enable the operations thereof, exclusive of capital costs, to be self-sustaining..."
Since the subway spent decades not being self-sufficient, we should have ripped them all up and ended subway service a long time ago. Contact the media-subways are illegal!
Stephen, your reasoning here is almost as good as the tax protester's argument that income taxes are illegal and the only legal law enforcement officer is the county sheriff.
Some degree of local bus service would need to be retained to serve locations between subway stations. Certainly, though, most could be safely eliminated.
Well, if I recall correctly, MSBA ("Long Island Bus") runs buses to both Jamaica Center and 179th. Since those buses are subway feeders, their route could be shortened to end at Francis Lewis, or wherever the new terminal would be.
The only Nassau bus that runs to Jamaica Center is the N4, to/from Freeport. The others that go into Queens go to 179th (actually as far as 169th), except for the three (N31, N32, and N33) that serve Mott Av-Far Rockaway.
:-) Andrew
OOOPS! And the N20 and N21 go to Flushing-Main St to meet the IRT.
:-) Andrew
> And the N20 and N21 go to Flushing-Main St to meet the IRT.
That's yet another subway line that should be extended.
- Lyle Goldman
And the N20 and N21 go to Flushing-Main St to meet the IRT.
That's yet another subway line that should be extended.Goldman
Oh baby you know I love when you say that! -D
You betcha it should be extended, even if they'd have to tear up the recent platform level exit and fare control additions. They'll just have to find another way to make Main St. ADA Compliant.
:-) Andrew
When was the blue and orange stripe thing added over the old blue-purple stripe?
- Lyle Goldman
Early 80's, IIRC.
It occurred to me that, as long as MTA is going to rebuild the 179 St station, they could consider a station name modification or exit sign modification to let riders know they ride very near Jamaica Estates.
The Midland Parkway exit is right outside the gates to Jamaica Estates.
Why are they going to rebuild the 179th St station? It didn't look too shaby today. I didn't examine all the nooks and crannies though.
ADA compliance upgrade. Elevators will be added to provide full access to disabled patrons, along with tactile strips for the visually impaired, and I believe, escalators.
I think it looks like crap. I'm not a total purist about the IND. If a revamped station looks better than the original (like 34th/6th Ave), then I'm all for it, but the 179th is one that clearly looks worse. If it's going to be rebuilt again, then an authentic IND build would be an improvement (I think this one used to have purple tile.) or if they think of something else better, than that's good too.
I agree with Ron that a rename could make sense--to "Jamaica Estates-179th St."
:-) Andrew
The yard east of 179th was built in the late '50s. It was done cut and cover. It should be called shovel and cover. The subserface is sand. The hills of Jamaica Estates are sand covered bolders from the last glacier. I recall the excavation using wooden boards and timber to keep the sides from caving in. Todays excavation wood drivw steel piles tahat have a "W" shape and inter-lock with each other. At the time of construction I didn't realize it had two levels. That explains why it seemed to take a long time.
The IRT subway in brooklyn was built when almost all homes had there own water wells. This caused the water table at that time to be lower.
Due to pollution from "Out houses" the area then got "city water" piped in. The water table rose to its original height. I beleive in the '60s- 70s there was a water problem on the Nostrand Ave line.
avid
The yard east of 179th was built in the late '50s.
The entire construction up to 184th Place was completed by 1950.
Then the construction I saw must have been a sewage project. A BIG semwer as I recall the size of the excavation.
avid
Hey, when you italicize a paragraph, you should end the italics before the end of the message, not double it.
- Lyle Goldman
The IRT subway in brooklyn was built when almost all homes had there own water wells. This caused the water table at that time to be lower.
By that time I think that people were already using municipal water.
Even if that municipal water happens to be Flatbush Water from where the Vanderveer Houses are now.
Did Flatbush ever use Brooklyn water from Long Island or did it go right to upstate water?
The station opened after WW2, @1950. 169th used to be the terminal on the local trains, with expresses terminating at Parsons/Hillside.
I'm sorry for the misinformation I posted about the #5 G.O. this weekend. I rode it this afternoon and sure enough, we were kicked off at Chambers and the train ran light down through the outer loop at South Ferry. I will try to get a response from the MTA guy who gave me the information. I'll see what he has to say for himself, and report back here. I hope this wasn't a bannable offense :)
10 lashes with a wet MetroCard for you!!!!!
Finally got the chance to see the abandoned/never used short section of the Utica ave. station above the A/C lines. It was really easy to get in. In other words no locked doors. The station as a whole is mostly mezzanines. One level layered on top of another in order to fit everything. On one closed off level of mezzanine I was able to touch the ceiling very easily. I am 6'2" and I would say the ceiling was 6'6". On the mezzanine there are two staircases that go down to other mezzanines. One on each side of the unused station. There were four staircases at one time but on one side of the mezzanine are now offices for different functions. After going down the staircase (either one) make a 360 and there is an open doorway that leads right to the local trackway. The station is on a diagonal and is a typical express station with four trackways and two island platforms. The station is as long as the A/C lines downstairs are wide. The platforms end about an inch or two away from the walls. There are no staircases on the platform and no tilework whatsoever. I couldn't help but stand there on the station platform and wonder what might have been.
Rather make that a 180 after the staircase. :)
Cool.
What line was suppose to be there?
Frank D
Utica ave. line, IND second system.
1010WINS just announced a "steam engine" exploded at a county fair in Medina, Ohio (somewhere near Cleveland). Three people were killed and 40 injured. It sounds like it was a stationary steam engine, and not a railroad steam engine.
It sounds like it was a stationary steam engine, and not a railroad steam engine.
"The steam engine was part of a display on antique power located at a corner of fairgrounds near entry gates, a sheep barn and grass parking lots. The display includes steam engines, and old cars and farm equipment." - AP
At this point, one can only guess. The AP statement doesn't rule out a locomotive, or a steam tractor.
Dude, I had just read this post and THIS EXACT SAME STORY came on the Channel 8 Hartford news. It was a steam tractor. I had just clicked on chuchubob's reply when they anounced the story. Holy cow.
cnn.com has coverage of the explosion.
That's what we're here for. We decide what's news :) Even the sad news :(
Holy!!!
You're in CT still, Mike?
Damm....
BTW - is it me or is channel 8 wimpy? I can't get it on any of my TVs. Not the RCA, not the Zenith, not the Bendix, not the Setchell Carlson.
I only get channel 3.
Well, old fart programming for old TVs I guess :P
I came back for a summer job here at school.
Cool. I'll have to drop by and do burnouts in front of your dorm or something >:)
That's ok. This area has already been overrun w/ enough bikers as it is. Why the heck are there so many bikers in Connecticut? This is suposted to be a civilized part of the country.
Bikers in CT? 9 out of 10 I see are freaking wimps. They don't ride on weekdays, they don't ride past 7, they hide under a bridge if it drizzles. Most are just yuppies, rubs, or "weekend warriors", as the press calls them. And they can't go faster than 5 under the limit.
You see them because they all flock to Rt 66. They all think there's something magical about that road and go bumbling along bumping into each other, etc.
I tend to stay up out of the mess. I don't need some guy with 500 miles on his (first) bike, who thinks he's Peter Fonda, bumping into me.
And also gets you away from the old farts in old cars with blue dots on the brakelights so you can't see them. UGH.
You want to see people who actually ride their bikes, go to NY more often :)
is that what happens when the ( some type of a valve that lets off excessive pressure ) either does not work right and or the pressure
builds up too high. I am sorry i dont know what type of a valve this is because it was shown to me at the pomona ca. fair,
the los angeles county fair where the largest steam & diesel locomotives are stored & put on display shown every second
week of every month ( a train museum ) the museum one i remember is the one in griffith park " travel town " ...
dont forget the orange empire museum in peris california where all of the laRy & PE cars do thier thing " pretty things they are "!!
"is that what happens when the ( some type of a valve that lets off excessive pressure ) either does not work right and or the pressure builds up too high"
It is called a relief valve. Most likely was working properly too.
The biggest problem is water make-up. The steel sheets that make up the wall between the fire box and the water depend upon water being in the boiler. If the water is too low this sheet can become damaged, which can become a very dangerous situation especially if an inexperienced operator tries to correct it by adding water. At this point the boiler is far too hot, but has not blown the relief valve, since there was no water to make steam. The addition of water now, flashes into steam and explodes the already weakend boiler.
Leastwise that is my understanding of such things, and we will let it be regarded as correct until someone else who knows more on this subject comes along and points out my errors.
Elias
Your explanation is fundamentally correct, Elias. I haven't seen any reports that have indicated the actual cause of the explosion; however, the operators of the tractor were among the most experienced folks out there, so introducing water improperly - unless the operators were misled by a faulty gauge - doesn't seem too likely as the cause.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"If the water is too low this sheet can become damaged, which can become a very dangerous situation especially if an inexperienced operator tries to correct it by adding water" - Elias
When the water level gets dangerously low, moving on a slight downgrade can leave the crown sheet bereft of water such that it superheats, then levelling off or going uphill can bring the water back with catastrophic results.
I haven't seen any reports that have indicated the actual cause of the explosion;... - Anon
I heard a radio report on Friday on my way back from Salem (NJ) that a crown sheet failure was suspected.
I spoke to somebody today that told me the engine involved in the explosion was a stationary steam engine.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I spoke to somebody today that told me the engine involved in the explosion was a stationary steam engine.
It was a steam tractor. The police officer injured in the explosion was talking to the driver about citing him for driving an oversized vehicle on the public streets.
We in Oregon have two weekends in June where they have steam traction engine parades a very colorful display of steam power, some are 10 tons of power, they were used for wheat harvesting a crew would drive this huge steam engine on the county roads from farm to farm,it takes quite a few people to operate all the equipment,it has a large wheel with a belt thats about fourty feet long to a harvester machine that seperates the wheat from the husk...a very impresive sight,the amount of sizes and power is vast,the fair is held in June in Brooks Ore.right north of Salem Ore.on I-5.
They also have a few trolleys from Ohio,and some 1920 Mack trucks,also various cars and trucks.it's held in a working farm out in the field.
R-40M 4476 (which ran today at the Manhattan end of a J train) has an R-42 seat on the short bench across from the operating cab. The back is the usual R-40 style. The two pieces didn't quite line up but it was still more comfortable than the usual R-40M deal.
This car suffered a minor mishap back in the 70s which kept it out of action for a little while; I believe it was a yard accident or something; they no doubt replaced the seat at that time.
Speaking of all things R40M - got an icebox yesterday on the "L", it was #4484 and man it was cold, ice cold. And it didn't drip at all.
We did not see a SINGLE SLANT on the "L", either leg of it either. They were all sleeping at Canarisie-Yard or at East New York.
Much better pictures of the approach to Eastern Parkway from the northbound "L" this time; I will try and get them to Dave for inclusion in the Eastern Division page.
wayne
Slants were on the N, some signs still with the Q's yesterday >G<.
They replaced the seat in the 70's? The seat that's there now is the post-GOH smooth kind -- if anything, smoother than usual. I suspect it's a recent replacement.
Why was the L running in two legs? There was no GO listed, but, indeed, the J I was on used the express track and an L pulled in alongside us. Was there a shuttle bus or was continued service available upstairs?
Yeah, I gave it an A- in support, a B+ in comfort, a B- in condtion (the previous surface was wearing through, not that that's a bad thing), and a C in presentation (the mismatch looked awful and no one would want to sit there if they didn't know how comfy it was [for an R40M ]). If only it could do a triple axle jump, I would have given it a 4 out of 5 overall score, but instead I give it a 3.8/5.
No, the previous surface was wearing through somewhere else. I think it was on one of the R-32's we rode, either on the N or on the E. Maybe it was on the 5. This seat on the J didn't even seem to have a previous surface.
That's a regular occurance.
Wayne I heard some 20 or so shovelnoses went from ENY to CI for the flip. Do you have the MU numbers, by chance?
Thanks IGSY
There are now official signs at Canal directing the way to the NB J/M/Z towards the Bowery.
I went there last week to see the crowds. Nothing. There were three of us on the platform, and it was a longish wait.
I guess the walk to Canal isn't much of a hardship after all. It's good the TA's spending its money on shuttle buses.
I was recently at 42/8, and noticed the station is just beginning a renovation. The one thing that stood out is the workers removing the unused escalator to the lower lever platform. I also heard jackhammers on the lower level platform. Near the north end of the southbound platform there is a hole in the floor which allows the air hose to go downstairs(next to the stairs, closest to the local tracks). Any ideas what is going on down there?
All of the 42nd Street complex is being renovated from 8th Ave to Broadway lines.
They could be disposing of the lower level platform, perhaps in anticipation of extending the 7 line to 12th Avenue. The lower level platform blocks the extension, as the tunnel for the 7 ends adjacent to the walls of the lower level A station.
The lower level platform blocks the extension, as the tunnel for the 7 ends adjacent to the walls of the lower level A station.
I thought it was settled by Todd that this was NOT the case.
Bob is right, the 7 should just dip down a bit and it'll be alright...
I uploaded some photos that I took today "in the system." They aren't fantastic, but you can make out what you're looking at. Go to:
http://hillel.cornell.edu/brianw/subway/index.htm
Most photos are under 100k. Enjoy.
At 179 St, they hid the beautiful tiled purple stripe with that cheap plastic orange/blue stuff to indicate that 6th Ave and 8th Ave service ran there, and 8th Ave trains haven't been there since Parsons/Archer opened. Let's restore the original purple stripe. (At least the columns are correctly painted purple.)
The "No windstorming" sticker is 100% funny.
I'd say its 100% stupid. The MTA should not give that brainless act the dignity of an official name. Anyone dumb enough to ride on top of a moving train wouldn't be dissuaded by a sign, and probably can't read, anyway.
That is not a TA sticker. Someone just put it there.
Robert
Oops!
In that case I give credit to whoever made it, for such an official lookng job. :)
Neat fireworks display in 1256!
When did this line quit? What did it look like?
My information comes from "The Cable Car in America" by George W. Hilton, published by Howell-North, Berkeley CA, 1971.
The Brooklyn Heights Railroad operated a 2,774 foot, double track line on Montague Street between the Wall Street Ferry and Court Street, traversing a 9 1/2 percent grade. The line opened for business July 20, 1891 and converted to electricity September 25, 1909. The cable was 8,500 feet in length, powered from the powerhouse at State Street at Willow Place, and in a blind conduit on Hicks Street. The company had eight closed cars, and seven open ones.
All things considered, it was a great success. It was heavily patronized, and the longest surviving cable operation in the East. The powerhouse was turned into a printing plant for Brooklyn Rapid Transit transfers after then end of cable use. Fourteen cars survived into the electric era.
Interestingly, Brooklyn Heights Railroad leased the Brooklyn City Railroad, then Brooklyn's largest street railway; then in 1896 formed Brooklyn Rapid Transit.
Any Help?
Thanks
Trevor Logan
#7 train passes over the yard. The closest stations would probably be Queensboro Plaza (#7, N, W), Queens Plaza (E, F, G, R, V), 39th-Beebee (N, W), and 33rd-Rawson (#7).
Still doesn't tell me, where do I enter the yard?
Trevor
Trevor: As a youth I would go trough yard with DaWheelFlange's father. The simplest entrance is from 43rd Street, just south of Northern Blvd. At that point, one or two tracks cross 43rd St,with no crossing gate.
Another entry point would be any hole in a fence that ran alongside Skillman Ave. Several factories have sprung up since then so I don't know if that's good anymore.
IIRC there is a fence alongside Thompson Ave (the western continuation of Skillman) that may have breaks in it.
When I was a youngster in the fifties, Railway Express used to operate a depot from inside the yard. Access was from a ramp on the 39th bridge that went from Skillman to Northern. Haven't been down there in a long time to know if the ramp is still there.
Amtrak Police patrols Sunnyside yard, you will be arrested if you are found on the property.
I've been threatened with a summons for just standing on the top platform of the stairs down to the yard by the police.
You forget, he has an NJTransit ID...
I'm a NJ Transit Employee, our trains are in the yard. So I would have NO issues being in the yard!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Question, is your NJT bus ID a different color from the rail employees ID? Or does your ID state your title on it? Double check. If an overzealous AMTRAK cop questions your ID, you could find yourself in some hot water.
The New Jersey Transit Employee ID is the same SYSTEM WIDE. All are the same color, same style. Does not have employees position on the card, it just has our Picture, Name, Employee ID Number and Date of Hire!
So even though I work in bus, I can easily state a position in rail!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The Bulls do "$h1t" but sometimes they do act out, It used to be a prime location to paint freights, but oh well, as long as you are careful to avoid the bull, its fine to tour the yard, this is to anyone who is not an employee, I encourage everyone to do some real "railfanning" and visit these facilities
I didn't know that I could be accessed from the subway lines - at least the nearby lines anyway. Hmmm....
Wayne
Do they even go to CI now? Or are those trains sent to Jamaica or 207 Street? Cause if the IRT cars from concourse need to go CI they would go on to the concourse then at Rockerfeller Center swtich back on to the F line then at Queens Plaza swtich back to R line then follow the broadway line all to CI. OR send the train through South Ferry then up Broadway to 207 and go there.
So what is the process now?
N train, Q & W also go there without any problem, so it is even easier to go to CI right now from Corona than it was before.
Correction. From Concourse to CI - using A line and transfer to the F either South of West 4th Street or at Borough Hall (Brooklyn).
What's wrong with simply taking the F the whole way? They can switch the train at 59st to the 8th Ave local, and at Jay or W4st to the Culver. What makes you think it would be difficult?
-Hank
I was more focused on something else concerning the subway system. I'm reading the 2000-2004 Capital Plan. It's is quite interesting concedering the fact that the Broadway Junction Station and Atlantic Avenue Stations are getting major changes concerning the structures that have not been used since the days of the els.
Hello,
Rob Marrero's web site mentions about a bus sign program for windows, but I can't find it on his web site. Does anyone know where I can download it?
The link was dead, so I removed it. It pointed to an IDrive account I no longer have. The file, between 4 and 5 MB in size, is too large to be allowed on the TopCities server (max. file size is 900K), so it will be unavailable until I find a place to put it.
I can let you use the webspace at Subtalklive.com at no charge. I want the file too.
Okay in da boss' office and low and behold I see a set of R40M's come up out of the 60th St. tunnel at Noon today.
Now my boss is giving me weird looks as I ignore him and try to catch the roll sign to see if this is an N train or what.
Nope it is signed M train and even though it stopped at that Plaza I don't think it was for Pax since it was short.
Major reroute??
Anyone hear of any problems out there today?
Usually, FSSR, M trains run light to the Astoria line and go back light. IDKY.
They were having some problems at DeKalb Av this afternoon due to a train losing indication en route. An M train got rerouted due to a delay in W service.
Thanks Z
"Losing indication" - does that mean during the intended route the train runs into unexpected red signals?
No, that meaens the train lost the indication showing that the doors are closed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you, yes, that all makes sense now.
If the C/R has indication for both halfs of the train and the T/O does not get his indication I believe they are still allowed to move the train in service on buzzer signal. (I could be wrong)
If the C/R fails to get indication then they have to discharge the train and take it out of service.
On buzzer? Wow, that'd be cool, just like riding NJT. Sit near a cab and know exactly when the door-holders relent.
It's a pain. I had a redbird once coming south out of 241. At 238 I received indication but the train wouldn't take power. Had to operate all the way to Flatbush with the buzzer and bypass. RCI got on at 96st. looked dumbfounded when I showed him the condition. Couldn't correct it.
Hi, there. I am curious to know where the "S" 63rd Shuttles lay up overnight and on weekends. They were scheduled for 24/7 operation, but do not run when alternate service passes through the connector. So, where do they lay up?
My guess would be 2nd Avenue on the F.
Maybe the 6th Avenue express tracks.
I doubt it. I think the tracks at Second Avenue Station (not to be confused with the Second Avenue Subway Line (:-) ) are being rebuilt and are "temporarily" out of commission.
- Lyle Goldman
Not anymore! The switches are fully rebuilt and concrete was poured last week. They are as good as new and are ready to be used.
It would be nice to see the station get some upgrading, particularly if it is being turned into a termianl for a new route.
-Stef
They lay up in Jamaica Yard. If space is available, they could also lay up on the spur tracks at Lexington/63.
A pregnant woman who was threatened with abdominal stabbing in a holdup attempt panicked and made her way to the token booth, whose clerk called the police. "Steve Strauss, the Transit Authority's director of government and community relations, was in the station putting up signs advising of coming route changes. He saw the crying woman and immediately went to her aid.
"He is a good man," Montalvo says. "He stayed with me and insisted that the clerk call for help."
But despite his confusion, the clerk had already contacted the police. Two cops arrived 15 minutes later."
story here
Bob Slovak is giving the company line as he is paid to do. As for the part time rush hour booths that are closing, those jobs are simply eliminated, the "token clerks" who are being displaced will have to "pick" jobs in other booths. The current job remains in the 24/7 booth. The station agents who eventually "go on the platform", to the best of my knowlege, go there after the last booth is eliminated and customers have no other choice but to buy MetroCards out of the vending machine. Even with the agents "on the platform", will they be behind a booth or freely standing in the mezzanine? Are we going to have just one real person on duty per station where we now have many in a large stations booth? If this is true, what happens when some nut comes up and puts a gun to the agents' head and demands him/her to open the vending machine so its' contents can be taken? Naturally the agent does not have a key to the machine, but the crook doesn't know this and doesn't care either. How close to a phone will the agent be when he/she is assisting customers? In the booth, it is right at his/her fingertips. Sure the article was sympathetic to the cause of keeping the booths open, but the fact of the matter is that the Daily News (and the NY post of 7-3-01), consistently editoralise in favor of eliminating booths so that salaries can be saved.
The NY Post editorial is Monday 7-30-01.
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/36161.htm
The Post is indirectly saying that having these rush hour only booths open is equal to featherbedding. ?. At least that's what I got out of it. The Post wants the TA to save as much money as possible. I am not a token/metrocard clerk and I wasn't one in the past but at certain locations that warrant extra booths during the rush hours, they are pretty busy. The Post makes a good arguement about eliminating the part time booths but employees know that this is the foot in the door so to speak. Elimination of all booths may not be far behind. The Post shouldn't be concerned with the TA saving money. I really don't think the savings is that great and the Post shouldn't be coaxed into thinking that this savings will be passed to the consumer.
>>> If this is true, what happens when some nut comes up and puts a gun to the agents' head and demands him/her to open the vending machine so its' contents can be taken? Naturally the agent does not have a key to the machine, but the crook doesn't know this and doesn't care either. <<<
I guess we could get an idea of how frequently this might happen from the experience of bus drivers since they stopped giving change and started using locked fare boxes.
Tom
Bus robberies are pretty rare - don't some long-distance NJ Transit commuter buses still give change?
This business of eliminating middle level jobs [as we know in corporate America as well as public services] is out of hand. As much as I like the Chicago L for one I find it most annoying that there is a station person but you can't buy a ticket from them but MUST use a machine. I have found these people to be very helpful and good representatives of the system....PR in other words. But of course this is an intermediate step to "nobody there" or police/security n their place which I can't say I relish.
15 minutes later? must've been lunch time
Donuts maybe ??
The S/A calls their command center who in turn call the police plus downtown traffic 15 minutes isn't bad.
In the debate over station staffing, it seems that the media, the politicians, and the professional activists have chosen (conspired?) to ignore the fact that PATH's stations have NEVER been staffed. Where is the "outrage"? Where are the lawsuits?
I have been to PATH's Control Center. They have color cameras(We have mostly B&W) and they can zoom in on a scene (we cannot even hold the picture on many camera locations.) Most of our monitors are so dirty and poorly maintained that all we see is a blur.
Recently at Woodhaven (R Line) a customer came to the booth advising she was a victim of a pick pocket. I immediately contacted police via emergency system. I asked customer to remain. I also immediately began making PA annoucements warning customers of pick pocket activity along the line. Can the MVM do all that- of course not!
support your station agents-keep the booths open. To those who want us roaming: Let's say we are working the Times Square Complex and you need help. If there is no booth where would we be- hope it is near you! With the current strategically located booth you immediately can find your Station Agent and in some cases we call for help if the customer is unable to call for help. I do agree that we need to roam the station **but** we also need a booth which serves as a communication hub for emergency service request. Perhaps we can ahve two S/As per station--one roams and the other stays in the booth. Ther two would switch periodically. The booth could continue to trade in cards, check cards, combine cards, issue maps, block tickets, etc.
More importantly, the booth can contact police or other emergencvy services.
Hi, new poster from Ottawa, Canada here. I've been lurking here for a while due to my profound interest in the NYC Subway system.
I agree with subway-buff that token booths should remain open. Recently on a railfanning visit in Toronto some idiot tried to snatch my camara from me in the subway. After the incident the booth was the first place I thought of going to report the incident. In a perfect world, crime would not be a worry on transit systems and in that case token booths would not be necessary. But unfortunately all cities are a victim of crime to some degree and the best way to prevent it is to have people there to stop it.
I like Washington's idea. All the fares are purchased through vending machines, but there is at least one station manager there to keep an eye on things and to ensure the machines are working properly. This idea could probably work in NYC.
The DC plan seems to make the most sense -- go to MVMs, but keep the agent in the area and with booth access in case any problems arise. Hopefully, one of the New York papers will actually have the bright idea to send someone down to Washington to do a story on the Metro's system, so that at least one alternative plan can be put into the public debate.
After the incident the booth was the first place I thought of going to report the incident.
Never heard of telephones?
I forgot to mention that after I told the guy what to do with himself he followed me down the platform.
When the guy is right behind you and following you down the platform I hardly think you have time to use a telephone before he catches up to you. With the station attendant in the booth at least he stopped following me once he realized where I was going.
Emergency telephones are seldom useful when the emergency is someone attacking you or trying to steal something from you. Here in Ottawa, there are emergency telephones in all our transitway stations (the transitway is our rapid transit system, but instead of trains on tracks it's buses on reserved roadways). Fortuanately the crime rate in Ottawa is very low, but I have heard stories on the news of people getting attacked who used the emergency telephone but by the time the transit cops came the victim was severely injured and the attackers long gone.
The point is that no electronic security system can substitute for a person already at the site who can help you.
"The point is that no electronic security system can substitute for a person already at the site who can help you."
...who is unarmed and not trained to be a police officer.
The point is that no electronic security system can substitute for a person already at the site who can help you.
...who is unarmed and not trained to be a police officer.
And completely isolated behing bullet-proof glass.
So then arm and train them!! It isn't impossible... I know McDonalds workers who wear bullet proof vests and are trained in these matters (although I admit they aren't armed), especially at the Downtown Ottawa location, which isn't exactly the most dangerous area in the world. So if it works for them, why can't transit authorities do the same?
The idea was put forward earlier that one agent would stay in the booth and the other would roam the platforms. Arm and train the one roaming the platform and the lowlifes will think twice before attacking.
And just the same, even if they aren't armed and are behind bulletproof glass, just the fact that they are there is often enough to keep theives and attackers away. I admit not always, but we have to remember that most criminals are also cowards. The minute their victims run to a booth they run the other way for fear of being caught. That's exactly what the guy who tried to steal my camera did, he didn't follow me up the stairs and continue harassing me!
So then arm and train them!! It isn't impossible... I know McDonalds workers who wear bullet proof vests and are trained in these matters (although I admit they aren't armed), especially at the Downtown Ottawa location, which isn't exactly the most dangerous area in the world. So if it works for them, why can't transit authorities do the same?
First of all, the cost of training the station agents would be very high. What with liability concerns and everything, they'd probably have to go through full police academy training - which lasts the better part of a year IIRC and certainly must cost many thousands of dollars - before they could be deployed. There's really no substitute for all that training. If a lesser-trained station agent shot a suspect, there'd be Hell to pay. I also suspect that some of the station agents wouldn't meet the background and physical requirements. Maybe a lot of them.
BTW - I've never heard of McDonald's workers anywhere in the United States wearing bulletproof vests.
Actually, in this McDonald's it's one worker at any given time wearing a bullet proof vest. I think the procedure is that he/she goes around doing regular duties, but acts as a security marshall. If an incident occurs, the rest of the workers go away in back and call the police or something and this person is responsible for dealing with the situation. I'm not sure what kind of training he/she would have.
I'm surprised that other cities in both our countries wouldn't have this. The area that this McDonalds is in in prone to occasional gang activity, and these gangsters tend to hang out at that McDonalds, so that's why this is being practiced there. But there are higher crime areas than this place so I'd be surprised if there weren't others like it. It could be just at that location though, implemented by the manager at that particular restaurant, perhaps at the request of the employees there.
Going back on topic, I agree that training MTA token booth agents would probably be prohibitively expensive. But having nobody there would not be a good idea at all. You need someone there to keep an eye on things. Again taking Washington as an example... I don't know what kind of training the station managers there have, but I know they're allowed to leave their booths (because when I was having trouble with my fare card the agent came out to help me) and I know they're there to make sure nothing happens in the station. And I know that Metro is one of the safest subway systems in the US, so they're doing something right. So why can't NYC do the same thing?
Going back on topic, I agree that training MTA token booth agents would probably be prohibitively expensive. But having nobody there would not be a good idea at all. You need someone there to keep an eye on things. Again taking Washington as an example... I don't know what kind of training the station managers there have, but I know they're allowed to leave their booths (because when I was having trouble with my fare card the agent came out to help me) and I know they're there to make sure nothing happens in the station. And I know that Metro is one of the safest subway systems in the US, so they're doing something right. So why can't NYC do the same thing?
DC Metro station agents aren't confined to booths because they don't handle money. In fact, I believe they're specifically prohibited from handling it.
I've never heard that they have any security-type training.
"DC Metro station agents aren't confined to booths because they don't handle money. In fact, I believe they're specifically prohibited from handling it.
I've never heard that they have any security-type training."
Then the NYC agents should be the same way. I'm not saying that the MVM's should be abandoned and station agents continue to sell fares. I think that the MVM's should handle the money and the station agent should be there solely for keeping an eye on things and to help passengers out with the MVM's, provide directions, fix screwed up Metrocards, etc.
And as I said before, even without the security training, most crooks are cowards and will go away at the sight of a station agent for fear of getting caught. Most crooks are also stupid, how would they know whether or not the station agent has security training? All they have to see is a uniform with a bullet proof vest, and most crooks will think the station agent is also a security guard.
My case for station agents:
Nobody seems to realize the the most important function of station agents: Protection against fare evasion. We could install HEETs at all locations, but due to the increased time it takes a customer to enter/exit, and the fact that they take up about twice the space of a regular turnstile, the entire Fare Control boundary would have to be replaced with HEETs at some stations.
Also, who would open the auto-gates? Hand out maps and schedules?(the take-one slots never have what you want). The arrangement in DC is, I believe, the best. However, most of DC's stations only have one fare control area. Most of ours have at least two.
Nobody seems to realize the the most important function of station agents: Protection against fare evasion.
This is being penny wise, pound foolish. Clerks certainly cost more than the revenue that is saved from lower fare beating. Since they're not going to run out the booth and chase after anyone, it isn't much of a deterrent, cameras would make more sense, they can photograph the person.
Also, who would open the auto-gates?
It's called remote control.
Hand out maps and schedules?(the take-one slots never have what you want).
Why is it that everyone seems to think that if clerks are eliminated, nothing else will change?
The arrangement in DC is, I believe, the best. However, most of DC's stations only have one fare control area. Most of ours have at least two.
People with special needs can use the main entry, or they can use the intercom (many places already have one).
another problem with HEETs is doubling or tripling-- where two or three or even more go through on one swipe. Also how would a person with luggage or a stroller go through a HEET? I've seen people squeeze through and actually see the HEET momentarily jam with them in the HEET. How would the mVM call for help there- I know: You want them to use the pay phone to call 9-1-1!
I have never been to DC but I like that idea as presented here.
Also how would a person with luggage or a stroller go through a HEET?
I had a hell of a time exiting CTA at the Loop on my way from Loyola U to Union Station several years ago with a large suitcase and a camera bag. I waited until everybody else exited and then struggled. Now that I'm 10 pounds heavier and have a larger camera bag, I'll really have a problem returning from the subtalk Chicago trip Labor Day weekend. I'll have to practice sucking in my gut, I guess.
I fully understand why you feel the current token booth setup is good, but the arguments you present do not really show how the present token booths are better than having station agents who are not tied to a stationary token booth.
>>> I have been to PATH's Control Center. They have color cameras(We have mostly B&W) and they can zoom in on a scene (we cannot even hold the picture on many camera locations.) Most of our monitors are so dirty and poorly maintained that all we see is a blur. <<<
The fact that NYC's monitoring system is inferior to PATH's system really means that the TA needs to upgrade the monitoring system and properly maintain it.
>>> Recently at Woodhaven R Line) a customer came to the booth advising she was a victim of a pick pocket. I immediately contacted police via emergency system. I asked customer to remain. I also immediately began making PA annoucements warning customers of pick pocket activity along the line. Can the MVM do all that- of course not! <<<
The scenario you described above could also be handled by a roving station agent with a cordless phone to contact police, make announcements, etc.
>>> To those who want us roaming: Let's say we are working the Times Square Complex and you need help. If there is no booth where would we be-hope it is near you! With the current strategically located booth you immediately can find your Station Agent and in some cases we call for help if the customer is unable to call for help. <<<
Stations could have emergency phones (under video observation to discourage misuse) which would connect a customer in need with a central location when there is no station agent there, or to the roving station agent's cordless phone when an agent is in the station. And of course a station as big as the Times Square complex would have more than one station agent on duty at most times, and might even have an "Information Booth."
Tom
I liked your post, Tom.
Sometimes we don't know how to "pick our battles." People can be very resistant to change - MTA has to deal with "back seat drivers" on virtually everything the agency does. That can stifle innovation, and can also prevent the efficient management of limited funds and resources.
I think MTA's plan could work, especially if the watchdogs (Straphangers etc.) contribute constructively to it. In this case a lot of people have "tunnel vision."
Of course, it would have been much more useful to have that S/A -- or someone equipped to actually do something -- right down on the platform. And I still don't see how the system becomes less safe a bunch of station entrances that are closed entirely at night (when most violent crime takes place) are, for the first time, opened. If, for whatever reason, you feel safer walking to the attended entrance, be my guest. Me, I'd be glad to reduce my walk (on a dark street with no S/A to look after me) by a block or two and get right into the station, both for safety and for convenience. (Unfortunately, my home station is keeping its rush-hour-only entrance as is.)
You've guessed it. Clinton is moving in. I get off the deuce at 125th, and noticed a heavy presence of kids handing out flyers for each of the four Democratic mayoral candidates. I also noticed the heavy presence of the NYPD, which would be the case for someone this big. Let's not forget the crowds that were around, some of whom were wearing pins for each of the men's (incl. Clinton) faces on them.
I get on NYCT bus #4804 (M101 nbnd), and we head for the stop at AC Powell (7th Av.) We seem to be the first bus past the police barricades on 125th. As we get near the state office bldg., we passengers see hundreds of people gathered around the plaza. Near the bldg. itself, we see a whole bunch of dignitaries incl. Rep. Rangel, and the 42nd president himself. Some on the bus were going wild. I was just looking at the spectacle around me, since this was the first time I've seen the guy up close (I got an even closer look at his wife, Sen. Clinton, when she paid a campaign visit to my home stop at Parkchester during her campaign.)
I tuned on the TV to have some noise with my lunch and Clinton was giving his speech.
There was something passing strange about it. I wasn't looking at the screen and at first I thought it was someone trying to imitate Andy of Mayberry. Kind of like an ingratiating hillbilly aceent. No joke. I often have CSPAN on so my second thought was that it was a politician in the House or Senate trying to sound "down home." When I got my nose out of the refrigerator and turned to look at the screen I saw it was Big Bill himself.
I count Clinton as an outstanding speaker but he just looked odd and sounded odd, as though he was ill prepared for the moment or not connecting with audience. After a while, though, he seemed to hit his stride and it sounded almost like a stump speech from the "old" Clinton.
If he suddenly announced for Mayor, do you think the other Dems would quietly retreat into the shadows like Nita Loewy did when Hillary announced? It seems absurd to think of an ex-President maybe running for Mayor, but he seems to need a splotlight and Mayor of NY has been called "the second toughest job in the nation."
That idea has been floated around before, of Clinton running for mayor. That would change the whole complexion of the race, for all but the most stubborn of the mayoral candidates would roll over and play dead (ignoring the risk incurred of unemployment due to term limits.) And the Republicans behind Bloomberg would have to shell out even more money to try and compete with Clinton's campaigning skills. That would be an interesting race, but it's not going to happen (I don't think it would, at least.) For now, just watch as the Democratic political machine goes to work on PR.
I think the Democratic hopefuls would back off, but they wouldn't be happy about it. The main question though would be: Why on Earth would he want the job? Sure he could campaign against Bush and Pataki in saying the city is short-changed in federal funding, but most of the city's political structure pre- and post-Guiliani matches Democrats against Democrats.
If he's in a contract negotiation with one of the local unions, controlled by Democrats, does he plead poverty or blame Washington for why he can't get them more money? They'll say: Ask your wife, the Democrats are in the majority in the Senate. And any increase in the crime rate or homelessness, or any problems involving the subway or other mass transit that is perceived to make things worse than they were during the past eight years will be immediately jumped upon by state and national Republicans. And any problems here would touch Hillary, and possibly hurt her presidential bid (oh of course she's running).
In short, the job has minimal pluses for Clinton and more than a few pitfalls compared to staying on the sidelines and giving a lot of speeches for a lot of money.
>>>There was something passing strange about it. I wasn't looking at the screen and at first I thought it was
someone trying to imitate Andy of Mayberry. Kind of like an ingratiating hillbilly aceent. <<<
Gore has this habit too. During the campaign he would turn up the Tennessee accent when he was below the Mason Dixon line. But put him in a black church, and he'd start testifying. It was patronizing, actually.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>If he suddenly announced for Mayor, do you think the other Dems would quietly retreat into the shadows
like Nita Loewy did when Hillary announced?<<<
Actually I don't think so. Her Highness has a much more intimidating, regal air about her and from the beginning she sensed the inevitability of becoming senator. She didn't even go on any radio or TV shows that may have asked a challenging question and indeed, never trailed in any poll even when Rudy was still pre-cancer and pre-Judi.
I believe Bill would have at least a runoff forced on him...
www.forgotten-ny.com
There goes the neighborhood !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Could Bill Clinton become Mayor Clinton. Would he want to?
First let's consider whether it could happen. I would say it would be his almost for the asking. If Hillary, whose life connections were with Illinois, Arkansas and Washington, could win as Senator, with the City being only 40% of the state electorate, I could see him losing is BOTH of two conditions occured: 1) a new scandal that would make anything heretofore seem tame in comparison AND 2) an incredibly strong and attractive Fusion opponent, perhaps an indisputable New York type--imagine a younger Herman Badillo combined with Fiorello LaGuardia backed by all the Republican money in the U.S. (as Clinton would be backed by all the Democratic money).
I don't see that happening.
But WHY might he run? IMO, it's a matter of personality. His political persona is "the comeback kid." The press doesn't pay so much attention to him--as is appropriate to an EX-President--and I think he HATES that.
As Mayor of NY he would have all the press again--he would be the indisputable leader of the Democratic Party and could probably successfully stave off party changes that be proposed by a Gore or Lieberman or Dasche wing.
Would it be good for NYC? In the LaGuardia model, I think it would be very good for the City so long as he remained Mayor, but I think it would have a negative effect in the long run, also in the LaGuardia model.
His probable success aside, imagine how much more of the shaft New York would see from the federal government with two Clintons for them to oppose with all their hearts and souls! We get little respect now with one Clinton bearing our torch. (How much did New York transit projects get from the feds this round, anyway? Bupkis.) With both Hill on the Hill and Bill here to shill for us, we would get nada in the respect department, and even less in fundage, unless both the House of Reps in Washington and the 1600 Pennsy were miraculously controlled by Dems after 2004. This is unlikely. As much as I may agree with most of their policies, having both Clintons as whipping-people in New York would not be very shrewd for us as a state and city. We need pols who have the balls to stand up and demand that New York see an equitable distribution of the tax money they provide to the feds every year. The couple from Arkansas will be ridiculed for suggesting this for New York. From this out-of-towner, let's steer clear of the animosity such an arrangement will draw. Like New York needs more contempt from the provinces.
Reporter to Shrub, on his recent visit: "Mr. President, how do you like New York?"
Shrub: "It's a lovely day."
'Nuff said.
"His probable success aside, imagine how much more of the shaft New York would see from the federal government with two Clintons for them to oppose with all their hearts and souls! We get little respect now with one Clinton bearing our torch. (How much did New York transit projects get from the feds this round, anyway? Bupkis.) With both Hill on the Hill and Bill here to shill for us, we would get nada in the respect department, and even less in fundage, unless both the House of Reps in Washington and the 1600 Pennsy were miraculously controlled by Dems after 2004."
Oddly enough, Chicago has has all Dem mayors since the '20s, and the present Mayor Daley is the son of the Daley that (allegedly) got JFK the Presidency in '60. I'd go out on a limb and say ALL the members of Congress from Chicago are Dems. And yet Chicago gets decent federal money, including (to keep this on-topic) several millions to fix the aging Douglas Branch of the Blue Line.
I think the thing you have to keep in mind, though, is that your typical Chicago Democrat is almost an entirely different animal than your typical Democrat at the national level. Sure, they go to all the same fund-raisers and support the same national candidates, but I think Chicago Democrats are much less idealogically-driven than their national brethren. Their main strengths focus mainly on local issues, and they relish the art of cutting a deal. They're happy to let Jesse Jackson take on the role of moral crusader, while they're more concerend about making sure the city works, making their friends rich, and winning re-election. Most of them are actually very conservative on social issues; I suspect Daley himself would be a Republican if he had come from any other family in any other city.
The state Republicans also tend to be less idealistic and more pragmatic compared to their national leadership, in addition to being every bit as corrupt as the Chicago Democratic machine. The two parties seem to have reached sort of a gentleman's agreement over the years, in which the GOP will run state and suburban politics as they please, and the Dems will do likewise for the city. Any third parties such as the Libertarians or Greens, or any independent candidates, will be crushed. Aside from a few border skirmishes such as O'Hare expansion and the typical election season saber-rattling, that seems to be the pattern Illinois has held for several decades now.
-- David
Chicago, IL
why Chicago gets more federal $$ than NYC
I think the thing you have to keep in mind, though, is that your typical Chicago Democrat is almost an entirely different animal than your typical Democrat at the national level. Sure, they go to all the same fund-raisers and support the same national candidates, but I think Chicago Democrats are much less idealogically-driven than their national brethren. Their main strengths focus mainly on local issues, and they relish the art of cutting a deal. They're happy to let Jesse Jackson take on the role of moral crusader, while they're more concerend about making sure the city works, making their friends rich, and winning re-election. Most of them are actually very conservative on social issues; I suspect Daley himself would be a Republican if he had come from any other family in any other city.
NYC Democrats, in contrast, have never learned this lesson. Limousine liberal ideology is much more important than pragmatic filling-the-potholes politics in their minds. It's no wonder that the city gets little or nothing from the federal government. Republicans hold NYC in contempt, and have long since written it off as a source of votes and contributions, while Democrats take it for granted.
In addition, another factor that may limit NYC's access to federal funding is the (entirely justified) fear that city politicians will squander whatever they receive. The Beame Shuffle may have happened close to 30 years ago, but people in Washington still remember.
My political science teacher back in the late 1970s actually perferred the Chicago "Ward Heeler" style of poltics to the anti-Tammany "Good Government" style that began after Jimmy Walker in the 1930s in New York and really KOed Tammany for good in the 1960s.
He said the Daley machine style of politics in Chicago had its share of corruption, but the people knew where they stood -- you gave Dailey and bis boys your vote, and they made sure you got your services. In New York, where the Seabury reforms of the 1930s promoted civil service over the patronage system of Tammany, the city workers became less tied to the machine politicans down at Union Square, but they also became less tied to the pols' constituants as well.
The bigger government is, basically the less able it is to walk and chew gum at the same time. If some local ward boss is meeting face-to-face with people in their area, there's more of a connection and more of a chance that something actually will get done than if some worker downtown is dealing with Case No. 735N/406B7-2Q19750638. Hard to put a human face to something like that, and for a civil service worker, who cares if it's Guiliani, Green, Hevisi or Bloomberg in City Hall; their jobs are safe, so long as the city doesn't go bankrupt again.
The ward system in Chicago has broken down some since Dailey died in the doctor's office back in the late 70s, but Chicago Democrats are still grounded more in the reality of delivering services in exchange for votes than are New York Dems, who tend to go on theoretical "How can we make the world a better place" flights of fancy at times, which often over the last 40 years has led to plans that look good on paper, but don't work at all in the real world.
My political science teacher back in the late 1970s actually perferred the Chicago "Ward Heeler" style of poltics to the anti-Tammany "Good Government" style that began after Jimmy Walker in the 1930s in New York and really KOed Tammany for good in the 1960s
Did your political science teacher point out that goo-goos didn't begin after Walker?
Of course anti-Tammany isn't the be-all and end-all of a good administration. Wagner was supposed to have finally broken the back of Tammany and its lasy power leader, Carime DeSapio, but the City deteriorated drastically under Wagner.
On the side of the goo-goos are a few minor civic projects, like the Dual Contracts.
He focused more on Chicago than on New York, but pointed out that the civil service program, both in New York and in Washington, really got going during the 1930s -- in Washington as a way to lure the "Best and the Brightest" (to take a phrase 30 years out of context) into public service, while in New York the desire was to shield city workers from the excesses of Tammany, which had by 1931 focused way too much on patronage jobs and not enough on constiuant services (that's where he said the Chicago machine was smarter than the New York machine -- Chicago never got too greedy).
Ed Koch was the perfect example of someone who started out as a "goo goo" working against DeSapio in 1961 and later saw that the "Save the World" form of government didn't always work out for the best. There's certainly some merit to civil service -- the Walker administration showed machine pols can get as out of touch with the voters as anyone. But the more layers of civil servants that are added onto the buracracy, the less one-to-one service there is between the voter and the public official, and the less efficent city government becomes.
(that's where he said the Chicago machine was smarter than the New York machine -- Chicago never got too greedy)
I don't think greed (or lack thereof) had anything to do with it, but I agree that the Chicago machine learned an important lesson that had been lost on many other big city governments: The people are usually willing to tolerate almost any amount of official corruption as long as potholes get filled, trash gets picked up, and busses and trains keep running.
This probably also explains why Bill Clinton remained so popular even in the midst of his variuos scandals. Despite the most dire predictions of his critics, the earth did not crash into the sun during the eight years he was in office. Maybe it was just dumb luck, but the economy sailed along and people felt confident under his watch.
Also, the Daley machine had the "advantage" of being simply the latest installment in a long tradtion of municipal corruption. Most people didn't see it in terms of right or wrong, but simply the way things are done. The ironic part is that Richard J. Daley was first elected as a "reform" cnadidate.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Your last sentence looks like it could have come from the mouth of Mark Green. I hope you New Yorkers are not dumb enough to elect him mayor. But, then again, you elected Hillary, so I wouldn't put anything past you guys.
Well, Mark Green does emminate from the "goo goo" wing of the New York City Democratic Party, but apparently his personality has ticked off a lot of other normally supportive Democratic power brokers in the city. I'd like to think that's because he's come to his senses, but judging by the people who are supporting him, Mark appears to be "King of the Goo Goos" for the 2001 race.
The fact that Green has actually hired Al Gore's lawyer David Boies to create a contingent of lawyers to check for primary election ballot fraud by supporters of Vallone, Ferrer and Hevisi shows that if he does get elected, he better become a mean SOB like Guiliani fast or he's going to get rolled by the special interests as bad as Lindsey did back in the 1960s.
I agree, but I actually admire people like John Lindsay who at least had a social conscience, even if they were completely inept at running the city. A sense of civic morality seems to be severely lacking in Chicago's City Hall at some times.
I like to think it's possible to find some sort of happy medium between the two extremes of New York and Chicago: A city government that really cares about the people it serves and sincerely tries to make a positive impact, but is still able to manage the city in a competent manner and take care of nuts-and-bolts issues like the infrastructure and city services.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I actually admire people like John Lindsay who at least had a social conscience, even if they were completely inept at running the city.
No, Lindsay was more than inept. To use a modern term, he "proactively" took a City in trouble and made it worse. Much worse. A social conscience has to be wedded to am understanding of which actions in pursuit of your goals are practical and which aren't. The peculiar problem of moralists like Lindsay is that they can become so sure of their rightness that they assume that anyone who opposes them is motivated by base instincts.
A better example of a Mayor with a social conscience who had a problem with the enormity of the job was David Dinkins. He made mistakes, but he could've made much worse mistakes. I believe his experience in City government caused to avoid stands that could have put the City back in deep trouble during a national recession.
John Lindsay went overboard with his "social conscience" which brought in a lot of votes and by the time he was out of office the city was unsafe for the people who worked, paid the bills, were law abiding, etc.; and the welfare city was a fact of life. And I wish to keep race out of this as whitey was not the only victim of what happened...it was unsafe for all kinds of people except for the upper crust who lived in protected areas, didn't ride the subways, kids in private school, etc.
In contrast Chicago was ruled by [until Daley Sr's death] a government that people accepted the corruption but everybody was given a piece of the pie or at least thought they were, and if things were to be done they got done period. Believe it or not Daley was honest but he sure enjoyed politics and pulling strings. Recommended reading: Boss, by Mike Royko.
In the midst of New York City's worst years I visited Chicago in l976 and 77 and felt safe, virtually no grafitti on CTA property, etc. Now if you looked for trouble I'm sure you'd find it but that was another story.
Mayor of NYC? A dirty job but someone has to do it. What makes it easy is that New Yorkers seem to enjoy being bamboozled.But then seeing what is happening in South Central and Western Montana with the influx of west-coasters that moved in I think its an American weakness.
This should cover my feelings on a few posts on the subject...like it or not Chicago IS the city that works. If New York even came close you'd have a 2nd ave subway, E or F trains to the Nassau county line, etc but this is another story...but rails is what we're here for.
OTOH, New York City has improved under the management of Koch and Giuliani without going back to the clubhouse. These are not perfect men and have their detractors but my point is that the City is governable.
Clubhouse politics works best where this is plenty of money and few entitlements. By "entitlements" I mean city financial commitments like social services that people can demand as a matter of right. If it's a matter of right than it can't be doled out by the local alderman and removes the impression that politicians are doing you a personal favor.
One area in which New York has historically "worked" better than Chicago, and most other cities for that matter, is public hosuing.
I hadn't thought of the "local alderman" angle...you're right. That amounts to nearly direct buying of votes with other peoples' money even if some people are honest and deserving.
Public housing and rentals in some privately owned properties as well can be a nightmare...Public housing prone to the worst though, then again being tax-supported likely that repairs will be made in better time even if over and over. Attitudes have to change before slums can be eradicated.
The patronage system definitely has its share of corruption -- trading service for votes and power allows pols to dole out city contracts to people they favor once they're in office -- but it does seem to provide a more direct connection between the voters and City Hall, which when the system is working the way it should, knows it will be tossed out on its arse if they don't provide the services.
Where it fails is if the voters get so conditioned to voting for one group of people that they pull the level no matter how bad things get. Then if the politicians realize they can get the votes without providing the services, the whole system falls apart.
Hey Big Ed, a great post. Where the hell have you been? Fishing and hunting in Big Sky country? Good to see you posting again.
I like to think it's possible to find some sort of happy medium between the two extremes of New York and Chicago: A city government that really cares about the people it serves and sincerely tries to make a positive impact, but is still able to manage the city in a competent manner and take care of nuts-and-bolts issues like the infrastructure and city services.
I actually don't see what's wrong with the Chicago model as it stands. You may not hear much about "social justice" or similar touchy-feely stuff, certainly not to anything remotely approaching New York levels, but the quality of life for most residents is no worse (and may indeed be better) than it is for most New Yorkers. New York's gargantuan levels of spending on health care and social services doesn't mean that most residents live in affluence to the age of 100.
Sounds a tad like Nassau County Politics...:-(
Ummm ... having relatives out there in Nausea, Dave's right. And it's pretty much the same up here in upstate too. We're registered republicans ... why? Because in *this* town, if you register as a democrat, your property taxes are twice the rate if you "register wrong" ... they don't care how you actually VOTE, it's a matter of which party in which location has the head count. Needless to say, the "hilltowns of Albany county" have voted solidly democratic since there were democrats to vote for.
Then there's NYC where the repubs have to find democrats (like Bloomberg) to run so SOMEONE will run on their ticket. Remember also, John Vliet Lindsay was a republican. (go for it, pigs! He didn't "become" a democrat until he wanted to run for prez) ...
How do "independents" fare in your fine town?
Peace,
ANDEE
Quite a few ... but ya gotta pick a side or they REALLY screw with your taxes ... and considering that I got me my three dollar check to help me do my part to stimulate the economy, I can only imagine what the independents got. Heh.
>>> This is unlikely. As much as I may agree with most of their policies, having both Clintons as whipping-people in New York would not be very shrewd for us as a state and city. We need pols who have the balls to stand up and demand that New York see an equitable distribution of the tax money they provide to the feds every year. <<<
Your post displays an appalling lack of how American politics works. Not since "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" has standing up and demanding something worked in Congress. What works is having the power to say to other politicians "if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours," and having them believe it is an offer that they cannot refuse. Clinton's power comes from his demonstrated ability to raise funds to get Democratic lawmakers re-elected. This has provided Hillary much more power than most first term senators ever have.
Tom
>>> This is unlikely. As much as I may agree with most of their policies, having both Clintons as whipping-people in New York would not be very shrewd for us as a state and city. We need pols who have the balls to stand up and demand that New York see an equitable distribution of the tax money they provide to the feds every year. <<<
>>>Your post displays an appalling lack of how American politics works. Not since "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" has standing up and demanding something worked in Congress. What works is having the power to say to other politicians "if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours," and having them believe it is an offer that they cannot refuse. Clinton's power comes from his demonstrated ability to raise funds to get Democratic lawmakers re-elected. This has provided Hillary much more power than most first term senators ever have.<<<
You are taking my statement way too literally. "Stand up and demand" was figurative. What I meant was, "work the system," I suppose. Right now, the Republicans have the most control of the purse strings since they're in control of the White House and the House of Representatives. There are enough ideologues on the right who will simply go out of their way to oppose the Clintons just because they hate them viscerally. The Clintons' power among Democrats can only get them so far, the balance of power being such that it is.
Lawmakers are much more partisan now than they ever were, and the "back-scratching" you speak of, especially across party lines, has given way to partisan bickering and side-taking. I imagine this situation is much of what caused Jim Jeffords to bolt the GOP and I say Good For Him.
I think I know a bit more about how politics works than you might think.
Why should Bush like New York? It rejected him out of hand and chose that newly minted fat slob Gore, a real loser. It elected that carpetbagger Hillary which prideless New Yorkers seem to do a lot. The only thing that prevents me from showing contempt for New York is that I like the place, am a native New Yorker, and love the subway system----so I can't jump all over her for those reasons. But there are millions who do not fall into the categories I outlined and they hate the place. Electing barfbag Bill would only increase the contempt others have for New York.
Good one, Kev. LOL!!!
Sorry Netscape screwed up the formatting on that so badly ... musta been all those stray magnetic fields. :)
Pricless, thx
Peace,
ANDEE
OOPS, I mean priceless
Bzzzp.
Hey Selkirk: The fault for this problem out here with energy rests with former governor Wilson and the current governor Gray Davis. The liberals out here made sure that no new power plants were built, and we haven't had on for 12 years because of some tree huggers who believe that darter snails, kangaroo rats, and spotted owls count more than people. Unfortunately, these are some of the same people who have advised Davis the last two and a half years. So don't put the blame on Bush, however, much you like to. One more thing. I'd be very leary Kevin when SUBWAYSURF starts praising you. That is like the kiss of death. He is Mr. Buttinsky personified, and would make a great censor for things he disagrees with. Watch it.
Well, since California power powers that LA subway, I guess I can go on this for one more message ... FERC, the federal agency that oversees electric distribution determined that California was subject to usurious electric rates for wholesale, above and beyond whatever the local political issues were and Shrub basically told California to go to hell for relief from the criminal behaviors of power providers in Texas that were found guilty of doing so. What California had going on is the deliberate withholding of available power in order to raise the price. Granted, there isn't enough distribution network for the demand and not enough generators for the need. But what happened was clearly determined to be "price fixing" by people appointed by Shrub hisself ... and their determinations were ignored.
So let's just leave it at this - despite the California issues, the Bush Administration refused to do what was right for the people of California and it was made quite clear in his own remarks that the decision to ignore the FERC determination was based on how people voted. As you get to know me a bit better, I worked in government so I know the REAL truth. Both parties are out to screw you and therefore I don't much care for politics in general. The only observation I can offer is that the democrats tend to spread the loot around a bit more than the repubs but BOTH parties are not your friend if you work for a living. :)
But politics in general? Ptooey. :)
OK Kevin, I will buy your story. If you worked in government you ought to know more than I do, but it is a sad commentary on the state of public service in this country if what you say really goes on.
The sausage crafters rule, and we do what they put into laws that tell us what to do. Fail to do what they want you to do and your title gets abolished. Used to be you had a job for life under civil service. Now they "restructure" if the colicky kids who craft our sausage throw a tantrum.
I've lived an interesting and amusing life. Follow along with me because this all does lead somewhere - I just want to put it all into place for ya. First, graduated De Witt Clinton HS on Mosholu, da Bronx in 1968. My first job was a TV repair shop on Beverley and Nostrand (C&M Color TV if anyone's from the hood there) ... did 6 weeks at Fordham but couldn't afford to keep at it in September. Did more TV repair, only for Panasonic, then SONY in LIC. Then got a gig as a design engineer for Executone, LIC. Home-studied my way to an FCC license (1st class) same year.
Then moved into radio, working most of the major and minor FM stations from WBAI to WHBI to WTFM to WHN to WLIR to WNEW, WPLJ, back to WLIR, WLIB (after Percy bought it) to WHUD in Peekskill. Did on air as well as keeping the tubes at the tower lit. During this same time also had a day job from working in electronics security and countermeasures with a company called Communication Control Corp, a gig at Western Union as a teletype transmitter operator and switch engineer, the TA as a conductor and motorman eventually and after that, went back into radio and got a later gig maintaining television cameras and VTR's for WNEW-TV (Mitch Katz was chief then) ...
Moved out of the City in '75 to upstate, first gig up here was in a TV shop again, started a business building antiwiretapping equipment, built a radio station in New Paltz that lasted two years and went bankrupt, took on contract work maintaining radio stations, built WFTI-TV54 in Poughkeepsie and from there when THAT folded (it's a Pary-TV station now) set up a TV facilities consultancy and ended up fixing equipment and designing TV studios up here and maintained a number of them from ELA studios in NYC to MetroAccess and Manhattan Cable's transmission facilities as well as others. Took the damned bus back and forth from New Paltz since the ride across to Po'town and a train was unpredictable at best. Kids, don't try to live upstate without a *CAR*! :)
I ended up getting a STATE gig in 1985 when the NYS Cable Commission wanted to construct a C-Span like channel up in Albany and designed, built and became Chief Engineer of it for about oh ... ten years. Came in as an SG-21, never saw a promotion or non-union raise in all my years there. Covered the legislature, put in microwave gear, fiber optic, advised the agency on technical matters related to cable, telephone (fiber optic in particular) and other aspects of communications and computer technology.
Having been a news director and on-air (and on-CAMERA) reporter and news anchor, I was stoked for this gig. Working FOR the people covering their elected and anointed leaders in their sty. While the channel was intended to cover the legislature, they never let us in. Instead, we covered endless, mind-numbing public hearings, agency puff-pieces, and at 2PM every day when in session, the Court of Appeals, starring Judge Sol Wachtler. It ran 24 hours a day and due to our lack of access to legislative coverage, it was as boring as a bowling ball.
A pair of senators had a HISSY FIT because they didn't get camera time when they wanted it so they could spout their pre-election tripe (not because WE didn't know what to kiss and when but rather because the satellite time that was booked expired and it now belonged to someone else and their powers of eminent domain were useless) ... so the agency was ABOLISHED by the Paturkey at the request of Joe Bruno and his pals at the NYS Business Council, deftly explaining that our demise was due to an imprudent cost that shouldn't be borne by the taxpayers (we'll conveniently forget that the cable industry paid for this channel and not the taxpayers). All because an asswipe senator from Broome county blew a tantrum because he couldn't be on TV when HE wanted to be. We were willing, but the signal was not.
So, in 1992/1993 (forget which since I don't give a crap about government any longer) we were put on the street. However, my wife, completely twisted out of her tit over this, walked up to a TV camera owned by channel 10 up here and proudly pronouced to them when they asked how it felt to be out of work said, "Republicans eat their young." The reporter asked repeatedly, "do you REALLY want to say that on the air?" She replied, "what are they going to do? Fire my husband?" And so it went .... 6 and 11 and in the papers. The local radio station, WGY was crammed with callers to its talk show insisting that they had NEVER feasted on children and no upstanding republican would eat children without adequate supplies of ketchup and mustard. Poiltical theatre to the extreme.
To make matters worse, since I similarly had nothing to lose now, gave them yet another "camera bite" by saying, "I wonder how many more bodies will be shoveled down the elevator shaft before MINE hits?" Well, chickensheets that politicians ARE, this went over VERY poorly and Bruno's district is across the river where the TV transmitters are and everybody there gets a GREAT signal without an antenna. :)
So suddenly, the next day, the word gets out that the people who worked for the Cable Commission were no longer "fired" and would be absorbed by the NYS Public Service Commission. Yeah, right ... more like "assimilated by the BORG" ... so here you have someone who is highly knowledgeable in ... telecommunications, computers, high power electric transmission and generation (after all, a TV transmitter gets fed 50 kV or better into a huge box containing rectifiers in oil out behind the transmitter (the one I was charged with the responsibility of as Chief Engineer in Poughkeepsie was a FIVE MEGAWATTER) and just about everything the Public Service Commission DID.
NOT ONCE in my three years after assimilation was I ever asked for any knowledge I possessed. PSC has done some incredibly stupid things that wouldn't have been had they asked ANYONE (not just me) which way a generator spins or the difference between AC or DC or many other things. They paid me my SG-21 to sit at my desk and surf the internet day in, day out, porn sites, whatever ... and of course the obligatory study groups and meetings where all that would be discussed was when and where the NEXT meeting would be held and whether or not there would be a flipping fruit cup with lunch.
In disgust, since the agency only listened to whatever crap the industries handed them, lobbyists, or directives from Senator Seward of the Energy Committee in the Senate or other politicos though would be a good idea (and lined their pockets with), I quit in disgust in 1996 and started the software company with my wife which I still do today.
So there you are - my gig with the "ta" was a very pleasant little part of my life and I get to cherish it a bit here, but I spent MUCH more time being a member of PEF (Public Employees Federation), keeping my head low and wearing a jockstrap while our anointed porcine swine do whatever they want to do because they ALWAYS get re-elected, and the public be damned.
So you see? I ain't some whiny-assed liberal ... I actually worked in the meatpacking plant ... and yes, Shrub's an asshole. How does that old saying go? Those who can do, those who can't teach and those who can't teach or learn get themselves elected? 'nuff said. :)
But BOTH parties are out for themselves and those who fork over cold cash. Different rubes for each party's own sidewalk act. But if you didn't give them each $5000, you can go to hell no matter who's in power. Who's cutting YOUR taxes? Nobody. Who's looking out for YOU? Nobody. Nobody for president. Seriously, those of us living in New York STILL have no budget and likely there never will be one. We PAY these people to sit at their desk and beat our meat. Maybe they should be abolished. Can't see government get any more broken than it is. And we KEEP re-electing the same schmucks ... again and again and again so they certainly don't fear US ...
Oh ... meant to add (whole point of the previous longie) ... everybody in FERC knows that California got shafted ("you buy the motor, we'll GIVE you the shaft") by Enron and the rest ... they HAVE the proof ... but as long as skunks like Trent Lott (Southern Corp), Dick Armey (Enron) and other skeevy little sawedoff ... ummm ... ahem's control the outcome, along with our Shrub (check out how many of California's generators are owned by "TexaCorp" companies who financed this "appointment by the supreme court" to the White House and there's no denying what it is you smell as a ratepayer.
Petey Wilson's only guilty of BELIEVING the sidewalk act he was handed ... "keep your eye on the queen ... where's the queen, where's the queen" ... a rube for a tired old NYC sidewalk act. FERC? California PUC? They were TOLD what the answer is - no study groups required, do as we say, not as we do and rubber stamp this here piece of paper or you'll be "reorganized and investigated" ... so, like any other civil service person, you bow your head, check your jockstrap and tighten your sphincter and do as you're told. Or quit.
But yeah, this has been reality for a ***LONG*** time ... some day, some enterprising investigative-type journalist or author will take on a "state or federal gig" for a couple of years ... give everyone a chance to see what they elect from the other side of the "photo-op" or "no photos, please" ... They who has the scratch get the itch fixed. Everyone else gets itch powder and a wet seat. :)
I think Clinton is more likely to have a talk show that fits somewhere between Letterman and Springer, given his personality.
Hypothetically, if he was just a guy, and you didn't know about his little thing with Lewinsky, but knew his personality and 'party guy' repm wouldn't you sit down and have a beer with him?
-Hank (Yes, I would)
Earlier, a few of you asked for the times of the last intervals to/from Bay Parkway. Here they are:
Northbound:
Lv. Bay Parkway 8:51 pm---Ar. Metropolitan Av. 10:14 pm.
Southbound:
Lv. Metropolitan Av. 9:04 pm---Ar. Bay Parkway 10:14 pm.
The next interval begins shuttle service to Myrtle Av/Broadway.
That was me that asked....:)
I also noticed the new crew room at 9th Avenue....
Thanks Zman.
Speaking of crew rooms, it looks like they're building a crew room at the north end of the southbound platform at E180 street. Why are they building it?
There are no "M" trips to B'way- Myrtle in the midday. Perhaps you meant leaving Met to 9th Avenue. I believe that the first train leaving Met to 9th Ave is at about 8:40 A.M. Can anyone verify or correct this?
First train from Met to 9 Av leaves Met at 8:26 am.
Thanks. I appreciate any helpful info.
Earlier, a few of you asked for the times of the last intervals to/from Bay Parkway. Here they are:
Northbound:
Lv. Bay Parkway 8:51 pm---Ar. Metropolitan Av. 10:02 pm.
Southbound:
Lv. Metropolitan Av. 9:04 pm---Ar. Bay Parkway 10:14 pm.
The next interval begins shuttle service to Myrtle Av/Broadway.
This is a long short, but I may as well ask. I'm in Toronto on business, and I stopped by the TTC offices to see if they sold t-shirts like MTA and London Transport do, and they said that they'd stopped selling them about five years ago. I as wondering if anyone knew if any were still floating around anywhere, any excess inventory that ended up who knows where. I don't suspect any are out there to be had, or that any one would know about them if there were, but no harm in asking.
Mark
New-old-stock TTC shirts are out there but they are tough to find. Best bet is always the Model Railway Show, except that's in January, because one of the vendors had a large stock of NOS shirts and that's where I picked up my PCC shirts. I do regret not getting any Gloucster shirts while I had the opportunity but I was out of cash having bought some PCC rollsigns (I got mine for less than $25 each and recently some have sold on eBay for over $150 US so I think it was money well spent).
-Robert King
January will come soon enough. Thanks for the information! Where is the show held, and what are the dates?
Mark
The name of the place that the show is held at is the Toronto Congress Centre (or similar to that) which is located out in the middle of nowhere near the airport so while it is possible to get their by public transportation, it is time consuming to do so. No date has been set for the next show but it will take place over a weekend in January - it would be advisable to attend on the Saturday, not the Sunday.
-Robert King
It might be worth checking the Toronto Christmas Train Show, this year on 24 and 25 November at the International Centre (the address is 6900 Airport Road, Mississauga, Ontario, just west of Toronto). There is no problem with parking at the Centre. Hours are Saturday, 11 to 5, and Sunday, 10 to 4.
Aside from the show, joy-riding in Toronto on a day-pass with all those light rail routes running right through downtown on main streets is a real treat. And all the two-way streets are a relief for pedestrians who don't have to walk the long distances to get to a surface line the way they have to in New York with its subservience to the automobile.
If anyone wants contact numbers for the show, please send me an e-mail.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY (four and a half hours from Toronto)
Got myself a "Metro Moves" sweatshirt many moons ago when TTC had their own store.
--Mark
Check out all the subways this guy has ridden
"Rail Transit Inventory in the USA
A list of what Rail Transit routes I have and have not ridden"He didn't ride them all, he's just listing them.
No, if you actually click on the link, you'll see that it has a column for "Part Ridden" and "Part Not Ridden." You'll see alot of "Alls" under the "Parts Ridden" section
ah, my mistake. Damn, this guy rode the entirety of the 2,3,4, and 5 lines? That type of stuff has to get repetitive...
The J AND the Z? damn...
"You'll see alot of 'Alls' under the 'Parts Ridden' section."
Yep! For example, he's rode ALL of the CTA rail system -- I *live* in Chicago and haven't done that yet!
He didn't mention the Ridge Ave spur on SEPTA's orange line.
How about the subway between the Captiol and the House Office Buildings up on Captiol Hill?
If this guy thinks the A runs into the Bronx at 237th Street, as he says in his web page............
I've ridden most of those at one time or another. And every bus line in S. Calif (RTD(MTA),The Big Blue Bus (Santa Monica), Culver Citibus, Norwalk Transit, Long Beach Transit, and in San Diego, San Diego Transit and North County Transit.
I've ridden the subways in San Francisco, Los Angeles (Blue Line), Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington, Boston, New York (of course), Toronto, Montreal, Newark, London, Glasgow, Brussels and Paris.
The difference being that I didn't go to all these cities just to ride the subways.
>>> The difference being that I didn't go to all these cities just to ride the subways. <<<
Don't complain to us if you can't get your priorities straight. :-)
Tom
HAH !!
Someone e-mail this guy and tell him to return to NYC and ride the (Q), Q diamond, (W) and new (S) shuttles !!
Sounds like he has a lot of free time on his hands.
Bill "Newkirk"
This guy should get a hat that says
"Welcome to Loserville!!! Population 1. Me!"
He must be a rich guy or on SSI benefits!
>>>>>>>>>>This guy should get a hat that says "Welcome to Loserville!!! Population 1. Me!"
Give Mr. Mabstoa a cigar!!
So, I set my camera for high res and got a really nice R-142 pic coming home from work today. Southbound pulling into Middletown Road on the 6.
Nice Pictures
dunno if it looks hi res, but that front 6 sign looks freaky...
nice pic nonetheless
Remember, I have the low end of digital cameras. When I save up some more money, I'll get a better one. However, the money I save on film and the fact that it looks just as good as a scanned image is cool.
Great picture.
The picture looks great!
Nice work, Tony!
Chuck Greene
Excellent picture. It really makes the train look like it belongs here.
(I was referring to the R142 specifically.)
It IS a nice picture but I can't get used to not seeing a big green circle in the left window with a white 6 on it.
I'm a volunteer at a trolley museum near Washington, DC and operate different types of trolleys. My question deals with the braking on the subways.
On passenger trains, the brake system is usually a graduated release. The simple method of operation is "set and forget." Take as much brake reduction as you want and LEAVE the handle alone. Freight trains use direct release. After you take as much air as you want, you return the handle to the "lapping" zone. If you want another reduction, you put the handle in the "service" zone until you get the desired reduction.
Graduated and direct are opposites. There was once a major collision on Amtrak outside Washington, DC. An engineer used to running in direct release was put on different equipment that was graduated release. When he tried to slow the train, he put the brake handle in the service zone to take air. Thinking the system was direct, he returned the brake to the lap zone. Instead of holding air reduction, he actually was releasing the brakes and slammed the Conrail local (yes Conrail ran commuter service before the State of Maryland took it over) into the rear of Amtrak #60 "Montrealer." (Don't bother getting out the timetable. #60 is gone, but not forgotten. Today, it's called #56 Vermonter and operates as far as St. Albans. Amtrak ditched the sleepers and didn't want to pay CN what it considered outrageous trackage fees into Montreal.)
What type of air system is used in the subway? If the answer is "it depends on the type of equipment," count your blessings everytime you get off.
Michael
Even though living in Washington, DC hopes to retire to New York and
enjoy the nation's busiest subway system. BTW, Washington is second.
M-4 you a WMATA employe? I retired 6-1-96 that early out thing. Worked out Northern switched to rail 1981. Worked main line (blue. orange, yellow) bumped down to stations 1997. Stations best job on property. Your museum one of tops in U.S.
You gotta be kidding. Last time I took a trip down there, only 1 car was operational - TTC 4603. Everything else was out of service or otherwise inoperative.
And that was as of July 4.
No, I don't nor ever worked for WMATA. I just fool people into thinking I work for WMATA. AND NOW I CAN ADD YOUR NAME TO THE LIST!
Michael
Mike for what purpose ? Do you vol. at museum??
I'm a volunteer operator. I used to go out frequently, but after I took up dancing, I barely have time to go out. The minimum requirement to stay qualified is one trip every 60 days, so I go out every 60 days.
As for the comment by an earlier rider that only the Toronto car is available service, I don't think that's right. It takes two to operate the European cars (and to tango!) because the doors aren't power operated and under the control of the operator as on a PCC. On most days, there is only one operator, one manager, and one museum shop cashier.
To paraphrase Blance Dubois in "A Streetcar named Desire," the Museum has rely on the kindness of volunteers to operate it.
Michael
A few subtalkers volunter at Trolley Museums, you are not allone.
Well, first of all, that's not an accurate description of graduated
versus direct release. Let's say you are carrying 90 pounds
of brake pipe air. Take a 20 pound reduction and you get a moderate
service application. With both types of equipment, you do this
by moving the brake handle to the apply (service) position and
holding it for a few seconds until your equalizing reservoir gauge
has dropped 20 pounds, then going back to lap. The difference is
that with graduated release, you can partially release the application
by, say, putting 10 pounds back into the pipe by moving the
handle to release for about 2 seconds and then going back to lap.
With direct release, this is not possible. Any motion into the
release area will completely release the brakes and it will be quite
a few seconds before you can take another service reduction and
have it actually do anything. Of course, there is always emergency!
This being said, it has nothing to do with the brakes on NYC subway
passenger trains (although it does apply to work locomotives).
That system is called SMEE and is a straight air system with an
emergency pipe. The brake handles are self-lapping, there is
electric brake trainline and dynamic braking. Totally different
ballgame and compared to a freight train or even a mainline RR
passenger train braking is much sharper, though not as good as
a streetcar.
The difference is that with graduated release, you can partially release the application by, say, putting 10 pounds back into the pipe by moving the handle to release for about 2 seconds and then going back to lap.
This means that the brake equipment on the cars must be different. On ye olde tripple valve if the line pressure is greater than the resevior pressure the cylinders vent. When was this techlonogy introduced and how does it work?
Remember those SEPTA MU's I'm always gumming on about? Well as soon as the engineer puts it in release you can hear the cylinders vent. Don't know what that means them being MU's and all.
This means that the brake equipment on the cars must be different. On ye olde tripple valve if the line pressure is
greater than the resevior pressure the cylinders vent. When was this techlonogy introduced and how does it work?
Graduated release was introduced about 1905. It became standard
on passenger equipment but the old type "K" freight car triple
valve doesn't have it. In order to have graduated release, the
car must carry a Supplementary Reservoir which is kept charged
up to 70 pounds from the Brake Pipe via a check valve. Let's
say you have set up a 20 pound (full service) reductiion. This
means the Auxiliary Reservoir, Brake Pipe and Cylinder have all
equalized at 50 pounds. Now put 5 pounds back into the Brake Pipe.
The higher BP pressure forces the triple valve main slide valve
inward, uncovering two orifices. One vents air from Cylinder to
Exhaust. The other admits air from Supplementary Reservoir to
Auxiliary Reservoir and thus recharges the latter. On a triple
valve without this feature, the Aux Res is recharged very slowly
via the feed groove in the triple valve piston. This rapid
recharge from Supplementary to Auxiliary means that Aux Res pressure
climbs as Cylinder pressure is released. The size of the orifices
is matched so that, in this example, by the time the Aux Res has
climbed up to 55 pounds, balancing against the Brake Pipe, the
Cyllinder Presssure will have fallen from 50 to about 39 pounds.
You can continue to partially apply and release the brakes in
this way indefinitely.
That is how Graduated Release works. Most triple valves with this
feature also have a reversible fitting that can be unscrewed and put
back on 180 degrees to turn off the feature, e.g. when hauling
the thing mixed in a train of freight cars.
Remember those SEPTA MU's I'm always gumming on about? Well as soon as the engineer puts it in release you
can hear the cylinders vent. Don't know what that means them being MU's and all
If it's an electric MU car, it probably has electric brakes.
These essentially bypass the Brake Pipe as the means of brake
signal delivery and instead use two electric trainlines called
A and R. If the electric brake should fail, it fails safe and
the triple valve is already conditioned to take over pneumatically.
Regardless of electric brake, the brakes will always release as
soon as the handle is put in release. What I was getting at about
the 2 seconds routine is that there is an equalizing reservoir
between your brake handle and the brake pipe.
By electric brake do you mean a brake which is not pneumatic? I assume you are referring to an actual brake, not dynamic braking.
Properly it is electro-pneumatic brake. If the electric feature which is a supplementary control failed you'd still have the same brakes only they'd take longer to apply and depending on the barke system..release.
The electric brake operates control valves in each car simultaneously..if that feature was inoperative then you have to wait for the air to reach each car or exhaust from each car depending on the system in a serial action and braking would be slower and more tedious.
I could explain different systems but would have to go on and on...basically straight air where application of pressure actuates the brakes or automatic air where a reduction in brake pipe pressure actuates the brakes. You can have an electric feature added to any of them . For example the R1-9 were automatic with the EP system and the present redbirds are straight air with EP and dynamic as well.
Interesting. But I thought each car had its own air reservoirs.
I understand how an electrical signal would simultaneously operate all train car brakes. If the backup pneumatic system is relied upon, does that mean a column of air goes from car to car, prompting each car's air reservoir to activate in turn?
This must seem like a dumb question. Apologies...
No problem...each car whether plain old freight or Amtrak type or electric transit/commuter has its own reservoir, control valve, etc.
Whether the message transmitted by the Motorman, engineer or whatever is pneumatic or electric the control valve, triple valve, or whatever responds and then air from reservoirs is allowed to go to brake cylinders, or air in brake cylinders is released to atmosphere, etc.You're on the money with the air going from car to car, and yes as the increases or reductions in pressure get to the control valve they respond one car at a time.
You might find it interesting to sit in the cab of a freight engine when they're "setting" air...meaning applying brakes. Let's say 100 cars train length about a mile...you'd be shocked to see how long it takes..over a minute...before the air stops blowing at the brake valve and all train brakes aren't set until the air stops exhausting. Everyone should hear for themselves...they'd NEVER try to beat a train at a crossing.
I know you didn't ask but I'll share that the locomotive brakes are straight air like the R10-42 were..apply pressure into the straight air pipe to apply brakes. Freight cars have automatic...reduce brake pipe pressure which causes the control valve to allow reservoir air to go to brake cylinders. Passenger equipments of varied types are a hodgepodge of systems usually depending on their age.
How does dynamic work on let's say R10-42? The system in each car responds to an increase in straight air pressure and causes electricity in the motors to act as a brake; as dynamic fades out with reduced speed air takes over; if the car has no motive power [dead motor] air brake autonmatically substitued for missing dynamic.
Thank you for that great post.
I have to make a note to myself to try to attend the Sept 8 visit to 207 St shops. It will reinforce what I learn here...
Thanks for the explanation. I basically know how train brakes work, but I really need someone through it with me on a locomotive w/ a little pointy stick. Text descriptions can only go so far.
Now I know you probably answered this, but I'm still a little hazy. I think that on a locomotive brake handle there are 4 positions (Emg, Apply, neutral, recharge) and after you made an application, you would move the handle to recharge to get a release. YOu just described a system were after you move things to release the cylinders do not dump at once, but dump in proportion to the air that is recharged. Is this correct and what is the exact mechanism that get's the cylinders not to dump all at once. I know you explained, I'm just having trouble understanding. Thanks.
I really need someone through it with me
on a locomotive w/ a little pointy stick
Well, your fantasies I can't help you with.
YOu just described a system were after you move things to release the cylinders do not
dump at once, but dump in proportion to the air that is recharged. Is this correct and what is the exact mechanism
that get's the cylinders not to dump all at once
You raise the brake pipe pressure back part way by putting the handle
in release, which feeds air into the brake pipe, and then back to
lap (what you called neutral). On a triple valve with graduated
release, the brake cylinder pressure is proportional to the difference
between the current brake pipe pressure and the nominal pressure,
and that formula works at all times. Without graduated release,
that formula only holds while increasing the brake application, but
release is all or nothing at all.
On most mainline RR locomotives there is no lap zone..most of the older engines in service have the "26" brake valve and many first generation ones have been refitted with it. The newest have that silly R44 type [like they used to be] handles going forward and backward but brake positions the same as on the 26 valve.
Operating the 26 brake valve is much like the ME42-43 on SMEE cars except is a brake pipe reduction [like older MU equipment] instead of straight air. Set it for a reducion and it is also self-lapping so you don't go service-lap then service for more air brake]No elecrtic feature either, maybe someone else has or will say the same.
At one time a motorman could run equipment with three different brake systems the same days: Let's say and R44 or 46, an R40 or 42,and R1-9 and I don't think we had any confusion and problems with forgetting which type of brake we were operating.
Just for info sake nearly all the prewar NYCT equipment could be run behind locomotives with no problems air-wise, just wouldn't have the electric brake feature. I haven't figured what they'd so with the trainlinemain reservoir line on the MU's though, probably hook it up to that of the locomotive?
Yeah, on those "modern" locomotives and control cab cars the
handles are self-lapping.
The use of the Main Reservoir pipe was essential for electric
MU operation because there are many things besides the brakes
on an MU car which need air, such as the control group (most
models), doors, whistle, not to mention being able to get some
feed valve air to operate from a head end car with a dead
air compressor. As long as you don't have to use that stuff,
you can tow dead R9s behind a locomotive with BP only.
Heck, even my GE 23 tonner has a 26C brake valve. But interestingly, according to Train Dude, the new LIRR diesels have Knorr CCB II Electronic Brake Valves which have the same positions as the old H6 brake valve (Release, Holding, Lap, Service, Emergency, (usually CCBI and II EBV's emulate 26/30 equipment). WHAT A THROWBACK!!!
Was there any confusion going from R units to older BMT equipment with the controller and brake valves reversed (a la Heypaul's cab)?
No but being whatever muscles I had were used to the proper way [everything but the BMT...IMHO] I used to have a pretty sore right wrist from holding down the dead man feature when running AB's.
Hey Ed ... you'll get a kick out of this - the controllers on some of the new cabs are on the wall now, like the window crank on the passenger side of a car and in about the same place. I think old "lefty" of BRT fame came back from beyond the grave. :)
Good grief...
What were the controllers on the BMT standards like? Did they jut up at an angle as on R units, or were they similar to the ones on the Lo-Vs? I never noticed them.
I'm digging deep in my memory bank and trying to comprehend exactly how to interpret your question. IIRC most Low-V's and the IRT in general had GE electrical systems where the BMT had Westinghouse.I think the last Low-V orders had some West. (l925--5500,5600) but won't swear to which did, there were some.. These would have similar master controllers as the standards. But different again....
IIRC the standards [or A-B's] had a controller with the off position perpendicular to the rails and multiple was parallel. The handle was a straight bar of course with the globular button on the end like some l0-12" long as opposed to the more ornate GE's. The springs were rather strong [as were the Westinghouse R26,27,28,29,30, and 33 ones] and unnecessarily hard to hold down.
The M/M indication light was right on the top pf the controller between the handle and the front bulkhead.. a rectangle perhaps 1" x3" or so; the thing I hated most was the stiff reverser that you had to snap fast and often skinned your knuckles or it would dump your air. I don't know if this was a built in feature or whether age and wear caused that. Hope I've answered your question..I could run one again today but to verbally describe...??
The current (August) issue of Railpace has a plethora of photos of interest to transit fans:
Page 4: NH FL9 2006 and MN F10 413 hauling 7 cars on the Hudson line June 7
Page 4: R-143 #8108 without wheels on a road trailer at Port Newark after arriving from Kobe, before delivery to 207th St Yard, May 8
Page 4: PCC car #70 on Beard St, Brooklyn, May
Page 4: Four 1100-series MN MU cars running in Scarborough, June 7
Page 10: St Louis Metrolink 2-car train at shop, June 20
Page 14: RBB&B Circus train westbound at Harrison, April 16 (2 E60’s)
Pages 24 and 34: Phila Suburban Transit #76 at Trolley Museum in Scranton
Page 38: NH GP40’s 6696 and 6699 pulling de-motored SPV’s on Long Cove Causeway, June 3
Page 41: Shaker Heights car #12 on Cleveland’s Waterfront Line, May 21
Also, of interest to Jersey Mike and me: page 5: SRNJ’s GP10 “City of Pleasantville”, painted in CNJ Blue Comet colors by West Jersey Chapter NRHS member Bill Kamps; at Winslow Jct, May 10.
Shocking news: even Trains mgazine now has a City Rails section...transit in both diesel and electric form, haven't bought Trains in ages but see the latest one I did buy has a piece on St. Louis light rail in that section. I was disillusioned for years that they never gave urban railways recognition..of course a chance they would as long as it was part of a common carrier operation.
I was walking down West 34 St. - 6 Av. with my dad last Saturday, and amongst the crowded streets, I saw a coach bus (it was all painted, including the windows) and it stated "Coach USA. NY to Newark Airport ---> $11!"
The $11 was inside a decorated silver star.
Then I thought to myself, is Coach USA trying to compete with the $11.15 rail fare from Newark Airport to NY?
If anyone has any updates, please let me know!
Railfan Pete.
BUSTALK
Bill thats the shortest answer in Subtalk history, funny as hell.
That was probably an Olympia Trails/Coach USA bus you saw. If so, that service (midtown to the airports) has always existed. Olympia to Newark, and Carey to Kennedy and LaGuardia.
Really? So the Coach USA bus fare of $11 has always existed? Then how did the Newark Airport fare get its fare that it did?
Railfan Pete.
Last time I checked the bus fare was $10 O/W.
Used to be $10 when I was last at Newark NJ, but that was 1999. I took the $4 bus to Newark Penn and caught NJTransit into NYC for $3.
The other day, I wrote about the TA's new service notice page not being ADA compliant. You can read it here. I'm pleased to tell you that we contacted the web site coordinator for the MTA site, and she was very nice. She was actually happy we brought this to her attention, and promised to come up with an alternative web page for us. Now, we wait and see if she delivers.
I hope by "alternate" she means completely separate and without altering the current page. I like being able to download the PDFs, used to steal G.O. posters off the walls (towards the end of their effectiveness, usually), now all I have to do is print them out! I also love the concise / detailed option in general, I hated having to wade through 50 repetitions of the same information on how to get to your destination.
Good work.
I see that we've got a thread going about the Flushing tracks beyond Times Square and the IND lower level at Times Square.
I'm going to go out on a limb here- is there ANY chance that the lower level wasn't part of the original IND? From the pics I've seen on this site and from the movie "Ghost" (Patrick Swaze/Demi Moore- 1990), the tile work seems to more closely resemble that of 179th/Jamaica. If it was built after WW2, that could make it logical that it was intended for Rockaway/Racetrack service.
I didn't see one station in Ghost that was a real NYC subway station, and although I haven't been on that level in Times Square for a few weeks, I'm 99.5% sure that the tilework is much closer to IRT than 179th St.
"Ghost" has at least the following REAL subway scenes:
Myrtle Avenue/Broadway
The Broadway #1 emerging from the Fort George Tunnel at Dyckman Street.
One station with a single side platform marked "42nd Street", with an R32 (showing #4 on the digital sign at the end). Looks real- when I sw the movie, I thought it must be a fake, as I didn't know about the lower level at 42nd.
>> ...One station with a single side platform marked "42nd Street", <<
That *was* actually 42nd LL, according to what I'd read in more than one place... It was the long scene where Swayze meets another ghost in the subway who teaches him how to move physical objects; and who eventually responds to Swayze's question "How long have you been here?" with "Since they pushed me." Several trains run by them during the scene (as I recall),
I could be wrong....
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
That was lower level 42nd St. indeed. The cigarette machine was of course a Hollywood add-on to fit in with the story line. Note the florescent lights were added for the film, note usual NYCTA lights.
BTW- is NewQirQ pronounced like Newkirk ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>> ...is NewQirQ pronounced like Newkirk ? <<
But of course! Now that both trains that come to my stop are Q's, it seemed a reasonably pithy re-spelling.
And thanks for the 42nd/LL confirmation.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Thanks!! I knew it HAD to be the LL, and notice the tile similar to 179th/Jamaica!!
I don't remember the line "Since they pushed me". Now I'll have to get the movie to hear it myself. I always thought that guy had commited suicide, and was damned to eternal life in the subway.
I was there for some of the shooting[at Myrtle/Bway] got a dollar bill signed by P.S[It said ''May u make more of these'']HA!
Why is it that in movies... the signs are never correct and they have trains that don't go wheree they should... Like in the movie End Of Days... they had a Lex Ave line with destinations to Times Square or something like that...
Most film producers figure the average Joe Moviegoer won't know the difference, especially if they've never been to New York. OTOH those of us who know the subway system and scrutinize every last inch of footage for authenticity are a select minority.
>>>>>>>I'm 99.5% sure that the tilework is much closer to IRT than 179th St.
The other .5% won out. The underground station scene was indeed shot at the lower level at 42 Street/8th Avenue. I should know having been down there quite a few times.
It did have the 1950s tilework, similar to Grant Ave., and it is possible that the station was set up to handle special trains to Aqueduct Race Track, when the Grant Ave. station was built to the Liberty Ave. el for connection with the LIRR Rockaway line. But I've never read anything about any IND construction in the 1950s at 42nd St. on the Eighth Ave. line. It's hard to believe a little thing like that could slip past all the histories of the NYC subway unnoticed.
Lower level WAS used not only for the "Aqueduct Specials" but was also the JFK "Train to the Plane" platform. Its separate fare control area was quite useful for those premium R9's that ran on it. Really. The Aqueduct specials were always R9 consists until after the bingbongs came along. The "JFK" of course got the newer cars.
Also was used for the E when it ran Eighth Ave. express to Euclid or the Rockaways during the late 1960s and early 1970s. I was just trying to figure out what the original use of the platform would have been when the 1950-style tiles were put in, and Aqueduct was the only thing that came to mind.
JFK NEVER USED 42ND LOWER LEVEL,it went uptown via 6th ave to 57th st[later to Queensbridge]I know,use to see the line everynight goimg to and from work from 21st st.
The JFK Express went to Queensbridge?!
I thought it was axed long before the stations were open.
=)
Queensbridge opened in 1989,the JFK stoped running in 1990
Right vegta! The JFK did run to Queens Bridge for a short time before it's cancelation.
N/W Bwy
A logical routing. Extending one seat (to the shuttle bus, anyway) airport-bound rail service to the East 60's and RI- why not?
I am sure that there are a few people on the board who would disagree that the lower level was used for the JFK train.
JFK Express trains ran via 6th Ave., then switched over south of W. 4th St. to the 8th Ave. local tracks.
From this very site:
"The lower level platform was built along with the rest of the station in 1932, but it was only used from 1959 to 1981 for odd services like the Aqueduct Racetrack special fare trains, and for rush hour E trains for a period during the 1970s."
It was also used in 1958 for specials to Rockaway Playland. See my "History of the IND" on this site for the other services this lower level provided.
--Mark
Yes, I read that too, and I HATE to challenge any of the stuff posted on this site. But the tilework looks so much like 1950s than original IND that I had to ask..
It's possible that for some reason, the lower level was built in 1932 but never tiled, like the lower level of the BMT City Hall station, because in 1932 there was really no use for it. Then when the TA acquired the LIRR's Rockaway branch and the access to Aqueduct, someone may have decided it would be a great idea to run specials from the lower level to the race track, the same way the Avenue B & East Broadway buses ran those specials to the tracks.
So the tile job on the lower level of 42nd-Eighth may have been put in about the same time as the Grant Ave. station was getting its 1950s tiles as part of the Rockaways extension.
The lower level was built at the same time as the rest of the 8th Ave. line. For many years, the northern end was used as an underpass between the two main level platforms, since most of the mezzanine was not in the paid fare zone. I remember using that underpass on one or two occasions and getting really spooked. After the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone, the underpass was no longer needed.
I suppose it's possible the thing could be reborn as a transfer point, if the No. 7 train was extended and they decided to put a stop at the Eighth Ave. end of the Port Authority, though I can't see that happening. If a PA stop was built between Times Square and the Javits Center, odds are it would be at Ninth Ave., since the A/C/E already connect with the Flushing line through the 41st St. passageway.
There was also a staircase at the south end of the southbound platforms. It has since been closed and cemented over.
Yes, I remember that staircase very well. You'd look down and see a pillar with a "42" plate on it. I also remember the escalator at the extreme southwest corner of the mezzanine with an "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special" sign pointing to it. Sometimes the escalator would be running on Saturday mornings even though it was fenced off, and sometimes it would be off. That whole area seemed abandoned even though it was regularly used on weekdays.
I remember this having a metal plate over it and it could be opened -- I was there a few weeks ago and saw it.
That was the escalator ... about half way there a door under a stairway that goes down there (it looks like a closet under the stairs, i.e. solid door & totally enclosed space). On the platform you can see the north & south staircases ... was there on my first Transit Museum trip several years ago.
Mr t__:^)
IIRC you can't see the escalator from the mainline southbound platform. My guess is the mezzanine extends further south than the platform. Last fall I was on a southbound A train and as it left 42nd St, I looked over to the right and thought I saw an enclosure just inside the tunnel which may have housed the escalator.
IIRC the mezzanine extends from 40th near the pedestrian tunnel that goes to the #$ 7, up to 46th street.
The lower level could have been built with the original IND, but tiled after WWII. Think Bergen st.
True.
The other day I send a letter to the MTA asking for a request items of timetables on the B/D, /(Q), 6th Ave Shuttle, Grand St Shuttle & W lines & they just only send me a brochure from the changes. Does anybody know were I could get timetables from these following lines?
I got a brochure that gives the full-detailed schedule of the the shortened B and D, the 63rd-6th Ave shuttle and the Grand St shuttle. Very interesting. Should be on TA website soon or find it on the subway at a station highly affected by the changes.
If you're in New York City, you can go to the 9th Floor of 130 Livingston Street. That's the MTA Customer Service Division. I was up there recently and saw timetables for some of the lines. Theoretically they should have all of them up there, but if they're out of stock, they're out of stock.
They're all available online.
I found timetables for the W at (of all places) Grand Central in the display rack at the entrance to the 4,5,6 (at the Lexington Av entrance.
It's this Sunday, Aug. 5, but I can't tell you where we are meeting or at what time. Doug, where are you??
This is via the LIAR correct?
The last trip was by A train and LI Bus; getting home was by either LI Bus or LIRR.
Why are you waiting for Doug to set this up? Gary, why don't you be the coordinator for this trip since you're requesting it.
BMTman
I thought it might be nice to have someone in charge who has done the trip before since I've never been to Far Rockaway nor Long Beach. I hadn't realized that I was coordinating it, but I guess somebody better:
Sunday Aug. 5: Meet by 10 AM at the Brooklyn bound end of the A/C platform at Chambers Street. E-mail me if you expect to go, and please be on time--particularly if I don't expect you.
Missed the last one and will miss this one as the Shoreline Trolley Museum has it's Working On the Railroad Days and I'll be working at the Museum both days.
Working on the Railroad (August 4,5)
Our vintage trolley work cars continue to work for us year after year, keeping our 100-year-old railway running smoothly. Learn how we lift heavy objects, lay down track, and string the overhead wire, with audience-participation shows throughout the day.
I rode the A from Broadway - East New York to 34 St. - Penn Sta. and I really enjoyed the express ride!
It was a Saturday, and on our way back home after 4 hours of subway riding with my dad, we waited for an A express train at East NY at around 9:55 - 10:05 PM. Meantime, a C train pulled up on the local track and served passengers. I thought about riding it, but then I wanted to stay for the 'A' express train. The C quickly pulled out of the station on its local route to 168 St. Manhattan.
Boy, I hoped that 'A' came here soon!
After minutes of waiting, I reassured myself. (We needed to catch the 10:46PM train to Metuchen from Penn) More minutes passed, and then weird thoughts started running through my mind (i.e. what if the 'A' ran local? What if I had to wait over 10mins for it?). Then my heart started to beat faster (literally) because the A train hadn't come in close to around 6 minutes. Thank God! After about 7-8 minutes of waiting, an uptown A express pulled up at East NY! I was delighted. My dad and I enjoyed the express route in Brooklyn and in Manhattan. It was (most likely) the last express train en route to 207 St, considering the time that we rode on it. What a blessing!
The conductor on board the same 'A' train that I rode was very sincere, and he talked in a smooth and steady voice, just as conductors should talk. What an experience!
Unfortunately, the C train that passed us on the local track was never sighted. Probably it was with us at Nostrand Av., where the express and local divide into two different levels. But we saw an 'E' on the local at Canal St.!
Next time, I would want to enjoy the express ride in both Manhattan and Brooklyn all the way to Far Rockaway! (Also the express track in Manhattan. The long exp. stretch from 59 St. - to 125th St. non-stop!)
My experiences...
Railfan Pete.
One A train I rode was at midnight. Clean, spotless, the smell of Lysol still in the air! A fast ride, too.
>The long exp. stretch from 59 St. - to 125th St.......
.....Is NOTHING compared to what it was in the
days of the r10... That stretch was once a
"timesaver" and trains would tear through
there "faster than an eggbeater" when heading
into the city... yet, today we boast of a different tale..
one of a stretch ill-ridden with timers and speed restrictions
(and slower equipment- in the name of the hippo68s
--tho pirmann forbid they ever come near the A line)!!...
Back in the r10 day, you could hop the A at 168 and
get to 59th milleniums BEFORE the 1 train you just
deboarded.. These days... you can hop the A at 168.....
and spend several minutes turtle-ing from pillar to pillar...
only to reach 59th at the SAME EXACT TIME (as per Alex. L)
the 1 you ditched gets there..
Surely that stretch is not today what it once was.
>>>>>>>and slower equipment- in the name of the hippo68s
They are not slow trains.
>>>>>>>>These days... you can hop the A at 168.....
and spend several minutes turtle-ing from pillar to pillar...
only to reach 59th at the SAME EXACT TIME
Not true. In fact, the C gets to 59 Street 2 minutes faster than the 1/9 according to the TA's own schedules.
"Not true. In fact, the C gets to 59 Street 2 minutes faster than the 1/9 according to the TA's own schedules."
One reason this could be is because "Broadway" isn't a straight street. If you ever walked on "Broadway", you will know what I'm talking about.
N/W Broadway LINES
Back in the r10 day, you could hop the A at 168 and
get to 59th milleniums BEFORE the 1 train you just
deboarded.. These days... you can hop the A at 168.....
and spend several minutes turtle-ing from pillar to pillar...
only to reach 59th at the SAME EXACT TIME (as per Alex. L)
the 1 you ditched gets there..
Surely that stretch is not today what it once was.
I don't know about the R10, but YES there was one time when those train went through the Central Park corridor like lightening. Unfortunately, those days are long gone.
Just recently I got on the D "express" which arrived on the local track. Since we were on the local track, many people go off to get on the arriving A "express" train. Unfortunately, no one realize that we was going to make express on the local track. This brought back memories when I use to live on the Lefferts Blvd A line. What happened was the "A" to Lefferts Blvd was making express on the Local Track while the "A" to Far Rockaway was making express on the express track. Those was the days!!!
Anyway, the same thing happened with the "D" and the "A". The "D" was making express on the local track and the "A" did it's run on the express track. As we was passing the 103rd Street Station, the "A" train snuck in behind us. I thought we was finished... But since the express track has so many DAMN! TIMERS! We caught up to them at 86th Street. We kept getting passed and they kept passing us. Between 81st and 72nd Street, it was all over for the "A" "express". At this point, those times really does a number on the express track to 59th Street. I read through there and can't understand why this area is so slow for the express run. As a matter of fact, it's actually slower than the local, making it practically useless for rapid express service. In other words, what was saved b/t 125 and 96th Streets is lost between 86 and 59th Street.
To finish the story, we arrived at the 59th Street way before the "A" "express" and end up leaving the platform before the "A" "express could even discharge passengers. What a sad story.
N/W Broadway Lines
The R-10s thundered, blazed, and rocketed along CPW when they ruled the A. It was sheer bliss for any RAPID transit buff. 81st St. on the northbound run was a blur. And if you were standing on the platform at 81st, you got an earful. The good old days.
I've also ridden on southbound D trains running express on the local track. It didn't seem to make much difference since they had to slow up at each local station and beep-beep, beep-beep, beep-beep their way along.
Ah, yes...the glory days of the R-10's on the IND "A" line. I can recall one memorable southbound trip in the mid-1970's that I was riding on that its run from 125th Street and 59th Street was amazingly done in just 5 minutes, which was 2 and 1/2 minutes ahead of the scheduled timed run. If the R-10's were also able to achieve the same feat in the northbound direction in also 5 minutes, I would not be surprised at all (because I sure it had happened).
Aside from the mad dashes up and down Central Park West, I can remember the fast build up of speed southbound from 59th Street and 42nd Street the R-10's were able to do on that stretch of "A" line express track. Also, another fast accelration going uptown on a downhill stretch from 181st Street to 190th Street (my former home stop for years), and the R-10's dynamic braking was able to pull into that station so easily. Alas, those timer signals on that stretch in Washington Heights erases any chance of ever happening again.
-William A. Padron
Yes, that southbound sprint from 59th St. to 42nd St. could be downright terrifying. Thinking back, those southbound A trains really did seem to pull into 42nd St. very rapidly - and would stop on a dime every time.
While the southbound CPW express dash was impressive, the northbound run remains seared in my memory. Time and time again, those immortal Thunderbirds would still be gathering speed as our train would be skipping 72nd St., and by the time we'd hit 81st St., that train would be in full flight.
It's just too bad I never got to sample an R-10 express dash in Queens or along Fulton St. Not to mention the fact that I never got to ride on a prewar A train along CPW.
August 5 is Sunday, the 30th anniversary of #3194's mad dash from 59th Street (and another mad dash from 145th to 168th). I remember that one very well. Dark car, with buzzing, snarling fans. Only Thunderbird that I ever saw equal that speed was #3080 out on the "F" Hillside Express in 1981. Those R-10s = they could FLY.
wayne
Ah, so you're calling them Thunderbirds now, too.:-) I'll bet 81st St. was an indecipherable blur.
The R44s are guilty of the same sluggishness as their more recent brethren. Only the R38s are capable of any speed through there.
wayne
Unfortunately, the C that passed us on the local track was never sighted. Probably it was with us at Nostrand Av., where the express and local divide into two levels.
That's because the C was probably leaving High St. already on it's way into Manhattan when you boarded that A train at East New York. Yet another reason why the C is the best kept secret of the 8th Avenue Lines. Don't sleep on it!
That is true. There are many times, Ill pass up a crowded "A" for a "C". And everytime it nevers fails. The C will get you to your destination just as quick as the A.
But the thing is I only waited 7-8 minutes for the next A to arrive at East New York (counting the time since the C train left us). Further down the express rail, I was wanting to see how far the C local got down the tracks, but it could never be found.
Then I thought to myself, a C local cannot move itself that fast, can it?
I didn't see it ANYWHERE, not even in Manhattan, West 4 St., 14 St., 34 St. - Penn Sta. (that's where I got off)
But I saw an 'E' local at Canal St.!
Wondering....
Railfan Pete.
Between East NY and 34st you skip only 8 stops. And those 8 stops are not consecutive.
Plus: A C leaving Canal st. directly in front of an A will not be passed until at least 50st, unless there is a high level of patronage on that C, or for some reason the C has sluggish acceleration (ie: dead motor).
Plus: A C leaving Canal st. directly in front of an A will not be passed until at least 50st, unless there is a high level of patronage on that C, or for some reason the C has sluggish acceleration (ie: dead motor).
A C train leaving Canal St. directly in front of an A WILL BE PASSED BY AT SPRING ST. local station. Now since the A can skip directly to West 4 St., and it also skips 23rd St., the C wouldn't catch up to the A, unless if a miracle happened.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The A is usually more crowded than the C. By the time the C pulls out of Spring, the A behind it probably hasn't finished loading at Canal.
According to the schedule, the C takes about two minutes longer than the A to get from Chambers to 59th. From Broadway-ENY to 59th the local takes about six minutes longer; from Euclid all the way to 59th the local takes nine minutes longer. (Locals seem slower than they are.)
If you just miss an A at ENY and a C pulls in right away, take it -- chances are you'll beat the following A.
Of course, actual running times vary. About a month ago I had a most enjoyable ride on the C from 86th to 168th. An A passed us around 103rd. We passed it back shortly thereafter. We pulled out of 125th before the A's doors even opened. At 145th we caught up with the previous A, but it didn't wait for us. At 168th, there it was (I think), doors still open. And this is the IND's flagship express run!
Wow. I should make some examples and report to you myself.
But the thing is I don't like the way the 34 St. - Penn Sta. platforms are constructed. It separates the local from the express. On this site, it says it was built this way in order to discourage passengers from transferring from the local to the exp or vice versa and the amount of traffic it would form.
The same thing is for the IRT 7th Av. lines. They are constructed the same way.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Yes, those platforms (as well as Atlantic IRT) are truly annoying if you just want whichever train pulls in first. In all three cases, there's no need to transfer there between local and express, since a traditional express station is one stop away in one direction or the other. That doesn't help those who are boarding the line to start out with.
If you're nimble and you wait by one of the crossunders, you should be able to make it to the other platform in time. There are annunciators but in my experience they sometimes lie.
They don't have annunciators at 34 St. - Penn Sta. 8th Av. Subway lines.
The unfortunate thing is that I start out at Penn Station NY. I have alternatives like World Trade Center, but I have to make adjustments in travel from NJ then.
Railfan Pete.
If you just miss an A at ENY and a C pulls in right away, take it -- chances are you'll beat the following A.
Yes, that might be helpful. But I'll report to you if we ever ride a C that is sluggish against the A!
Railfan Pete.
Northbound A trains don't exactly rip past 23rd St. They do go faster now than they used to (the R-10s literally crawled past 23rd), but it's still an opportunity for a C to catch up.
If the T/O operates so that he isn't slowing down 300ft from the first yellow on the timer, trains would go much faster. But, A line T/O's are not L line T/O's.
I guest the C line change over the years, because, I always known it too be the slowest line of the Central Park Lines. The "AA" line was the fastest (OF COURSE!)with the "A" close behind. The B was 3rd and the C and D was a far 4th.
N/W Broadway Lines
On the unused outer platforms, during the same Saturday 'A' subway ride, I noticed that they had removed the lighting (or turned them off) along the abandoned platform. Some incandescent bulbs accompany lighting on the west side (front) of the platform.
I know the outer tracks were used for the 'HH' trains which directly connect the Court St. - Transit Museum, thanks to the helpful info. compiled by David Pirmann.
1) How can the Transit Museum be accessed today?
2) What are they going to do to the unused outer platforms? Do they have a plan?
Answers will be greatly appreciated, along with some other info. I ought to know also.
Thanks.
Railfan Pete.
The outer tracks still go to the Court St. station and the Transit Museum.
The only thing that would make sense in order to re-activate the outer platform at Hoyt-Schermerhorn would be to connect the local tracks to the Sixth Ave. F tracks between H-S and Jay Street. That would allow either the future V train service to run as the Fulton local to Euclid or run the C through the West Fourth switch and the Rutgers connection as Fulton local without having to cross in front of the A train before Canal eastbound and before Hoyt westbound. Doing that might allow an increase in the number of A trains per hour, which would boost service east of Euclid and to the Rockaways and Lefferts, but the MTA has a whole bunch of projects that would be a better way to spend their limited resources.
That actually was an idea in the East River Crossings study. (To bring 6th Ave service to Franklin for transfers from the Brighton in the event of Manhattan Bridge closures). But obviously it was too expensive and disruptive to downtown Brooklyn.
The cost/benfite ratio wouldn't be worth it, given the other needed projects on the system today. It's just something that the IND builders should have thought of back in the 1930s, instead of assuming a Brooklyn-only Euclid Ave. to Court Street local would be viable in the short-term, and builing it back then would have had minimal effect on the system's cost.
The outer tracks still go to the Court St. station and the Transit Museum.
What are the hours of the Transit Museum? I've never been there before, and I would like to know. How frequent are trains passing through the outer tracks to/from the museum at Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts.?
Railfan Pete.
New York Transit Museum Home Page
The museum is scheduled to close for renovations quite soon...
Trains don't run to the museum from Hoyt-Schermerhorn - the only time those tracks and platforms are used is when equipment is moved into or out of the museum, or during a movie/commercial/TV shoot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"2) What are they going to do to the unused outer platforms? Do they have a plan"
There are no plans unless the Museum is decommissioned and the Court St. stub is connected to the Second Ave subway. I don't see that happening. They will use those platforms for commercial and film shoots.
Bill "Newkirk"
1) How can the transit museum be accessed today?
The entrance is at Boerum Place and Schermerhorn Street, as it has always been. There is a closed entrance at Court and Schermerhorn.
Trains use the south side (Brooklyn-bound side) outer track for moves back and forth to the museum. I've never seen the north side tracks used.
wayne
They use the northbound track for an occassional Museum Movement. I haven't been there in a long time (12 months is a long time), but I remember it like I was there yesterday.
I was witness to movement of Museum Cars once.
It was a refreshing site to see something other than D-Types Move. How often do you get to see an elderly electric locomotive move with BUs and a modern diesel locomotive at the trailing end? Fantastic!
-Stef
OK, so can 6095 run under its own power right now?
I'm sure it can. Without putting words into anyone's mouth and saying this will happen, I would expect that all three units will be in use for the 8/26 excursion, to accomodate additional passenger loads.
It's not everyday you get to ride a D Type behind a diesel into the street! That damned excursion..... I'm going to miss it.
-Stef
It's too bad the cars on display at the museum are "dead" in the sense that their compressors don't kick in and cut out the way they would if they were in a terminus waiting to depart. I used to hear this all the time at 8th Ave. on the Canarsie line when the BMT standards were still around, and later woth the R-7/9s.
Perhaps if the museum gets some real funding at some point, a recording of those classic sounds could be provided. Wouldn't that be neat? (wouldn't wear down the rotating metal of a classic car either)
What a great idea ... stick the speakers under the cars and ... is it live, or is it Memorex? :)
--Mark
It would definitely solve the "experience" issue without wearing out hard to replace equipment. With modern cheap computers, you could dump the various sounds as looping WAV files and run the sound card outputs to amplifiers and speakers under the cars. The really big attractant of the older cars was the unique sounds they made and I know a number of folks here would likely PAY to be able to push a button for that electric brake valve sound from under an R9. That'd stain my pants. :)
Heypaul has R-9 tape recordings. One of them, on the LL, has great compressor sounds. The overall sound quality is quite good.
Mike's Trainhouse is producing an O gauge version of the R-21 painted as a Redbird. Is this historically accurate?
thanks
I don't have a picture of an R-21 in red but Greller, in his book, New York City Subway Cars," states they were painted in red after a rebuild.
AFAIK only the R-17s got a limited number of Redbird repaints in their final days. The R-21/22s started as dark olive green cars (black, really) and then got the MTA corporate colors of blue-and-white before bowing out of service when the R-62s arrived, too early to get the Redbird repainting.
thanks to all.
No R21/22 cars were painted in the current redbird scheme. Many were painted the lighter red of the mid 1960's. A handful of R17's were painted red in the 1980's and ran on the Flushing line as the "11th" car when the single R33's were being overhauled. These cars later ran on the Times Sq. shuttle and the #5 line, finally being retired in February 1988. The R21/22 cars were all retired by late 1987.
6688, a R-17, at Branford did all of that and left the system, I think in 87.
She is now red again after a lot of work by the 3/4 Ton Crew this Spring & Summer. To be totally honest, there are some yellow patches (the aluminum primer color). All this will change when the final coat gets sprayed on.
Mr t__:^)
Did they get all that silver and blue off as well?
We took her all the way down to bare metal ... this Spring the trolley guys were calling her a "Rust Bird", but we counted 10 & didn't call any of their stuff "Rot Birds".
BTW, there was one more layer of paint we uncovered, gaffitti.
There was also a sign on the end doors below one layor of paint "Please Don't Stand Between Cars". There was also a bend in one of the pantograph gates that 3 of used a bearing sleeve press to hold the gate while we gently bent it back.
Mr t__:^)
There is one R21/22 at Corona Yard that is in the red scheme, renumbered to a 93** number. It is used for a storage car. There were no R21/22s painted in that scheme used for road service, although there was a 7074 painted in the pullman green, used as a spare unit for the 10 8800s that were painted similar. Their schemes matched the 110 WH R10s, except the interiors were beige with orange door panels, where the R10s had green door panels.
You mean 7075, look in Greller's book on pg 77 it is 7075 not 7074
how about the r-17s ? & i have seen photos of them in museums painted red as well ?? where are the museum r 21s?
it sure was a lot of fun riding them on the # 1 train !!
Sometime in the mid sixties IIRC the R12,14,15, and 17 were painted red much like todays redbird scheme; the R21,22,26 and 28 remained Pullman green and the R29,33, ML 36 were bright red originally.
In the mid 70's IIRC all had been repainted MTA colors. I cannot remember any R21 being painted red but there could be exceptions. They weren't done as a fleet.
I don't remember R12-15 being red, but R-21/22's were. I remeber them coming in all the different color schemes that the 17's and other mainline style cars came in. They were all mixed in anyway, so it would be easy to miss. (The 12-15's stood out because of the windows, and I remember them as some dark color, probably the original gray.)
Of course the red was not the same as todays "redbirds", which are a dull "brick" or "fox" red, with the bulkhead black and the roof silver. The R21-30 and 33/36ml were a bright fire engine red, all over.
I disctinctly remember seeing R-12's and R-14's being painted red, but this was in the early through mid-sixties, when any repainted car was being painted red, to look somewhat like the R-29, R-33, and R-26 classes.
When they repainted cars red, they often left the "baseboard" area and the pantograph gates black.
R-21's and R-30's were NOT originally red. The original color schemes for post-war cars were as follows:
R-10's, R-12's, R-14: Two-tone slate blue/metallic silver-blue with orange stripes
R-15: Two-tone Maroon and cream
R-17: Maroon
R-16, R-21, R-22, R-26, R-27, R-28, R-30: painted "Pullman" or "Brunswick" green, a barely green, almost black shade
R-29, R-33 (mainline), R-36 (mainline): Bright red
R-33s and R-36 (World's Fair): Two-tone blue and white with black trim. (Some call it a turquoise, although its more blue than green; the white was actually a slightly greyish off-white.)
R-17: Maroon ... that was her birthday suit ...
I think she got the big blue stripe next, then all white, then all red.
Mr t__:^)
i agree with you there on the r-21 !! ( thanks for the memory ) !!
Wow, I had forgotten about those orange door panels. They were on a lot of cars weren't they?
The orange-and-tan paint debuted with the arrival of air-conditioning on the R-33/36 mainline trains on the Pelham Bay local back in 1978, and then went to the Flushing line's R-36 WF cars after that. The MTA at the time said the paint was more graffiti resistant, but it didn't dawn on them at the time that washing off the graffiti more often was a better way to fight the problem.
If nothing else, the orange-and-tan paint scheme beat the pistachio green-and-gray nightmare design they had given the R-7 through R-36 ML cars back in the early 1970s (though Flushing should have kept the World's Fair Bluebird colors, IMHO)
Thanks.
No, but MTH decided more people would be interested in purchasing the models if they were "Redbirds;" this post from about a month ago explains all :).
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO. I AM NEW TO THE BOARD AND MISSED THOSE POSTINGS.
I dont think so only the R-17's were painted redbird colors, in fact the R-17's ran on the Times Square shuttle then on the Dyre Avenue line then "retired" somewhere in the late to middle 80's, were over in the Unionport yards for a spell if you want to see it hit Rolling Stock IRT link, then hit the R-17 link and you will see the "Redbird R-17". Its a museum car in Conn.
After the MTA blue/grey the only colors I've know the R-21 to be painted in were green (two of them). The only cars prior to the R-26 that I've seen in red were those 10 R-17's that were on the Shuttle and served out their last days on the #5 Line.
Wayne
Were those last 10 Redbird-schemed R17's also the ones that were mixed with R36WF on the Flushing line around 1986 subbing for the R33S's out on GOH ?
"Were those last 10 Redbird-schemed R17's also the ones that were mixed with R36WF on the Flushing line around 1986 subbing for the R33S's out on GOH ? "
You are right, Joe. Never saw them on an operating end, always buried in the middle.'
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't forget the all-white paint job. Most of the R-21s and R-22s got it, too.
It would not be historically accurate to show the R-21s painted in the "Redbird" scheme since to the best of my knowledge there were no R-21s that were painted in the "Redbird" scheme.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I was on my usual Qloc this morning. I was sitting in R68 2776, and I noticed that the in-car PA system was exceptionally loud, and the conductor's voice came over very clearly. That "interference" noice that comes over the PA was also very loud, which makes me think that the "overall volume" of the PA was up, versus the conductor just talking extra loud.
Twenty years ago this summer, I spent several weeks on what amounted to a paid student internship with a local government agency in Connecticut. It was a truly surreal experience. I am not exaggerating when I say that there was literally no work for me. The two regular employees who were supposed to give me assignments had barely enough work to keep themselves busy for more than an hour or two each day; one can hardly fault them for not sharing any with me.
My "workdays" were an utter joke. I was supposed to work nine to three. In reality, I would come into the office about ten or so, see if there was anything for me to do - there never was - and within five minutes would leave the building and head to the nearby public library. I'd spend the next few hours at the library reading books and magazines, surrounded by skells and senile old people, and would go home about two. Fridays were especially tough, as due to budget constraints the library was closed until after noon. Fortunately, I got ahold of a key to a largely disused employee lounge in the basement of my office building, and would hide out there until the library opened, reading a book checked out of the library the day before.
While a literal "do-nothing" job might sound fun, it actually was miserable. I detested coming into "work" each day and couldn't wait for the internship to end. It didn't pay much, but I needed the money and by the time I started it was too late to find another summer job. It should go without saying that the summer of 1981 was not a happy one.
How is this all relevant? Well, I was thinking about the plan to convert station agents to customer-service workers and make all fare sales through MVM's. I have long been a supporter of this plan, as should be apparent from my postings here, and I still consider the "public safety" arguments made by Subway Buff and others to be so much Luddite hot air. But there's one problem ...
Station agents as roaming customer-service workers will be kept very busy at many Manhattan stations and some in the outer boroughs. Stations that attract many tourists are a prime example. But what about the less-busy neighborhood stations that are used mostly by local residents? I somehow don't foresee much demand for customer-service help at those stations. This lack of demand will, of course, be even greater on overnight shifts. What might very well happen is that some station agents, deprived of fare sales responsibilities, will end up like me in 1981 - at work with nothing (or nearly nothing) to do. That seems almost cruel to me.
There do not seem to be any easy solutions. Laying off the unneeded station agents might be kind in the long run, not to mention cost-effective, but would be a hardship for many people and might very well be prohibited by contract. It might be better for all concerned to retrain the station agents for other duties, leaving some stations unstaffed in the off-hours at least. But does the TA have enough jobs to accommodate the retrained station agents? There seem to be so many questions ...
>>> Station agents as roaming customer-service workers will be kept very busy at many Manhattan stations and some in the outer boroughs. Stations that attract many tourists are a prime example. But what about the less-busy neighborhood stations that are used mostly by local residents? I somehow don't foresee much demand for customer-service help at those stations. This lack of demand will, of course, be even greater on overnight shifts. What might very well happen is that some station agents, deprived of fare sales responsibilities, will end up like me in 1981 - at work with nothing (or nearly nothing) to do. <<<
I do not really see this becoming a problem. I doubt that there will be any layoffs, but reduction of force by attrition through normal retirement and job terminations. As the number of agents shrinks there will be no overnight agents in lightly used stations, and even during the daytime, one agent may be assigned to two stations, riding back and forth between them. At worst, the Station Agent will become like a Wal Mart greeter. The friendly face of the TA saying hello to regular commuters. Also, even at stations with regular commuters, the Station Agent will be able to tell them of GOs in effect. Even today I doubt that the job of a station agent in a lightly used station (i.e. two or three people an hour buying a Metrocard) could be very intellectually stimulating.
BTW, the worst do nothing job I ever heard about was quite a few years ago (I have forgotten the details) when a corporation wanted to fire about fifteen workers but could not either because of a union contract or court action. The selected people were assigned to sit at desks in a room during their work day. They were prohibited from communicating with each other or anyone outside of the room, sleeping, eating, smoking, or listening to radios, and the only reading matter permitted was a company procedures manual provided to each of them. Anyone who broke the rules could be fired. They got ten minute potty breaks in the morning and afternoon, and a regular lunch hour. How long do you think you would last at that job?
Tom
"The selected people were assigned to sit at desks in a room during their work day. They were prohibited from communicating with each other or anyone outside of the room, sleeping, eating, smoking, or listening to radios, and the only reading matter permitted was a company procedures manual provided to each of them. Anyone who broke the rules could be fired. They got ten minute potty breaks in the morning and afternoon, and a regular lunch hour. How long do you think you would last at that job?"
If these were union positions, the union's lawyer might have told the company that those work rules were not in the contract, and therefore unenforceable.
As to other situations, well, who knows...
Think about the cop who walks down the street on his beat. The majority of the time, he has no "work," since a crime is not being committed every half hour during his shift, but he is there when one does happen. Furthermore, his very presence deters such crimes. I suspect he is not required to walk the same beat all the time, perhaps just enough to familiarize himself with the neighborhood and its proprietors and residents. The next day he may be on other duties. Station agents should be rotated in and out of walking the "station beat" as well, and shifts should be of reasonable length. I think this would molify the union and help management achieve its goals.
There are just some "jobs" in which "actual work" is not constant, but which are just as important as those with heavy "workloads." Remember the air force guys who would sit in those missile silos in Nebraska in the 1980s with keys in their pockets waiting for the red phone to ring? There was never any "work" to do there (thank God), but we still needed those fellows at their posts.
There are just some "jobs" in which "actual work" is not constant, but which are just as important as those with heavy "workloads." Remember the air force guys who would sit in those missile silos in Nebraska in the 1980s with keys in their pockets waiting for the red phone to ring? There was never any "work" to do there (thank God), but we still needed those fellows at their posts.
Most of those missle silo were manned by two people. The Air Force would not assign a man and a woman to silo duty together, fearing that with all the boredom, things might happen.
I had a meeting in Manhattan this afternoon, and I thought I would follow it with a quick visit to my mother in Astoria. I decided to do the whole trip from Riverdale to Manhattan to Astoria to Riverdale by mass transit.
The 12:36 Hudson local at Riverdale was a few minutes late, but arrived at GCT on time at 1:04. What frosted me was the 2 conductors spent the whole ride in the head 2 cars, never getting to me in the last car to sell me a ticket. So I got a free ride, but as a taxpayer, I was incensed. Probably a dozen customers were overlooked. Not a lot of money, but if this happens every day on multiple trains . . .
Left the office at 4:50, hopped an uptown 6 at 51st. Got a new R142. Noticed 2 things -- the AC was incredibly powerful, and the automated announcments don't yet recognize the existence of the W train at 59th.
Ran down the steps at 5:00, and a W was just pulling in. It was fairly empty, and the R68 just blew through the tunnel. I thought we were maybe halfway through, when we suddenly emerged on the Queens side. At QP, we shut our doors just as a 7 pulled in. I soon saw why -- as we rounded the huge curve, I could see another W pulling into QP behind us.
Got a great view of Sunnyside Yard -- saw an Amtrak and a NJT laid up, while an LIRR was zipping by.
The center track ride to Ditmars was slow ,and we pulled into Astoria Blvd. at the same time as an N. Then both the W and the N arrived in Ditmars simultaneously! Elapsed time, 59th to Ditmars, 11 minutes. Pretty good.
Got a ride to my mom's on 49th St. After the visit, at 6:00, took the M60 bus on Astoria Blvd. over the Triboro to 125th. I was surprised when my MetroCard registered a free transfer, then realized it had been less than 1-1/2 hours since I entered the system at 51st. and Lex. Good deal.
Elapsed time on the bus, 49th St. & Astoria Blvd. to Park & 125th -- 15 minutes. At Park and 125, picked up the 6:30 Hudson local and was home by 6:50, 2 hours after I left the office. Score one for the system!
That wasn't a long post. Don't be ashamed to tell your story.
the automated announcments don't yet recognize the existence of the W train at 59th.
Neither have the conductors, apparently. No conductor I've had has yet announced the transfer to the W since the bridge flip save one, and I ride the 6 four days a week.
Dan
That had to be my W train you rode. I hit Lex at exactly 5:00 and arrived at Ditmars at 5:12.
Did you work the B before the flip?
If so, the W better or worse of a pick now?
I worked the N for the past 3 years. So far with the express and all, I'd say this W is a better deal.
The W is great if it goes where you need to go.
But N service was reduced to make room for it.
That means that if you use the Astoria local stations in the peak direction, the Broadway local stations, or the Sea Beach line, you're worse off now than you were before. That's especially problematic on the Sea Beach, where there are no other options for those not near the West End.
BTW, I loved your conductor. He had a great, sonorous, 1930s New York accent like you used to hear on newsreels. And he made very clear announcements, starting out with, "Passengers, please be advised.." Very literate.
Actually, Steve, I am the conductor. Glad you appreciate my style.
You should teach a conductor elocution course!
I hit Lex at exactly 5:00 and arrived at Ditmars at 5:12.
According to the published schedule the 3:55 out of Stillwell should have arrived at Lex at 4:56 and arrived at Ditmars at 5:08 and the 4:02 out of Stillwell should ave arrived at Lex at 5:02 and arrived at Ditmars at 5:14. Out of curiosity were you 4 minutes late, 2 minutes early or is the schedule inaccurate?
4 minutes late. I make the 1555 Stillwell.
That would explain the fact that there was another W right behind.
The R142 will not be programmed to say the new transfers until late fall.
That way they only have to do it once. No sense in reprogramming it now and then again in November to add the V and lose the S.
Why not? They didn't wait until November to replace the maps and station signs. It should be much easier to reprogram automated announcements than to replace physical maps and signs all over the system.
I heard on the news a bystander got shot to death at the 111st station in Corona on the platform at 6:10pm Sunday. The gun went off when two other people started fighting.
No suprise, Corona is a pretty bad neighborhood. Also there was a story in the Daily News about someone who was mugged at noon in the Bowery station. The station was empty, only the token clerk was there and got help. Exactly why the token clerks should not be removed.
The Bowery spooked me out when I was there last week and I will not go there alone again. It's still a ghost station.
Personally I think Corona is just as bad as the ENY/Brownsville sections, as well as Bed-Sty. Bowery station area is just a ghostown, but it's kinda seedy as well.
The incident at 111 St./Roosevelt Ave. happened in the street. It was not on TA property..........Can I say that the extended M service is not needed since it is geared to allow Grand St. customers to walk to the nearby Bowery station, yet how many additional daily fares have been paid there in the first 6 business days since the changeover commenced?
I remember when it was announced that the M would go to Brooklyn all day, and someone named Mike responded on these boards saying that few people would use the M at Bowery to make up for the Grand st. station.
I bet he was right.
Bowery patronage has nearly quadrupled. There were four people on the platform other than me on Friday, up from one the previous week at the same time.
And who knows in a week maybe two it might be 12 ???
Why is the Bowery station so different from the Grand Street station? It has one of the lowest passenger patronages in the subway network, while Grand Street is the complete opposite. Does the lack of passenger patronage have to do with the condition of the surrounding neighborhood? Or, does it have to do with the M service through the Montague tunnel? Bowery seems like an abandon neighborhood that lacks businesses and residential population. It also looks pretty rundown in comparison to Delancey and Grand Streets? What the HELL happened? Can someone give me a little history of this area? It looks like many stations served by the J/M/Z lines are pretty abandon. Does this lack of patronage have to do with the poor service offered by the J/M/Z lines? Or, does it have to do with traveling patterns? This is indeed an interesting subject to me, and I hope I get a lot of responses from people who know the history of this particular area.
N/W Broadway Lines
Me too. I'd even like to know more about the entire Nassau line.
Why 3 tracks at Delancey, 4 at Bowery, Canal and Chambers, then two at Fulton. Why the inconsistency?
Chanbers used to be the terminal for both Manny B and Willie B trains back in the days when they connected to the Brookly els. Later (the two track lines) it was extended to the Monteque Tunnel.
The South side of the Manny B went directly into the Chambers Street station, and the North side of the Bridge went into Canal street and thence into Broadway.
With the invention of the Christie Street Connection The North Side went to Sixth Avenue, and the South Side made a quick jog top the north to get itself onto the tracks into Canal Street.
So Chambrers Street used to be a big terminal.
There is also off to the starboard side of Jamacia bound Willie B trains a large open area that once upon a time used to be the street car terminal (and no, I am not old enough to remember street cars there, but I do remember when the tracks and low level streetcar platfors were still there. Look fast, they seem to be doing something in there now, may hap part of the pridge rehab.
Elias
IIRC the third track at Essex St was added later. Originally, there were supposed to be two separate loops from Brooklyn to Manhattan and back to Brooklyn. Eastern Division trains would enter Manhattan via the Williamsburg Bridge, then loop back via the Brooklyn Bridge once past Chambers St. This is why the the two westernmost tracks at Chambers St. ramp upwards through the station. This plan was abandoned when it was determined the Brooklyn Bridge could not handle subway equipment. The other loop, which was eventually completed, had Southern Division trains entering Manhattan via the Manhattan Bridge, then looping back to Brooklyn via the Montague St. tunnel.
"This plan was abandoned when it was determined the Brooklyn Bridge could not handle subway equipment."
hmmm. Didn't the Bklyn Br. handle trains before, including a trolley line?
N/W Bwy
Those were wooden el. cars, not heavy steel subway equipment
"South Side made a quick jog top the north to get itself onto the tracks into Canal Street. "
What is a quick jog top the north to get itself onto the tracks into Canal Street?
N/W Broadway Lines
The two tunnels (leading to Chambers and Canal) run next to each other heading away from the Bridge. They knocked a hole in the wall between the two tunnels, and the H tracks now move from the south tunnel to the north tunnel. After they move, the tracks to Chambers begin. This is why when my class rode along on an M layup on J1 (former H1), I saw beyond ther bumper another track swinging into its place and didn't realiz this was the Canal St. track. (I though that would b further, near the portal.
Riding on the Canal St tracks, you see they run straight, then swing to the right for several yards ("jog"), then run straignt again, and that they have simply moved from one double trackway to another.
So Chambers Street used to be a big terminal.
Even LIRR Rockaway trains went to Chambers St. for several years using the Chestnut St. connection.
"Even LIRR Rockaway trains went to Chambers St. for several years using the Chestnut St. connection."
Wait.... Chestnut Street connection? Where the HELL is Chestnut Street? DAMN! Why did they stop this Manhattan access?
Chestnut Street is in Brooklyn, out near Crescent Street. The connection between the LIRR and BMT was just west of the "J" Crescent Street station. It went down Chestnut to Atlantic, then east, then south to Rockaway. This was A LONG TIME ago, I would guess in the 1910s. The only trace of this connection which is visible are the angled crossgirders on the "J" el just west of Crescent.
wayne
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME HEARD ABOUT THIS! WOW!!!
This service terminated in 1917 when the tunnels to Penn Station finally gave the LIRR it's own Manhattan access. The ramp/connection was removed in 1940 when the LIRR was moved from street level to a tunnel under Atlantic Ave. The current Blue Ridge Farms complex is built on the old ramp site.
Blue Ridge Farms, Is that Buggsy Segels Cousin, the one that makes all the potato salad,coleslaw and Macaroni salad found in your friendly grocerers refrigerated section?
avid
The latter, but you forgot to use the words "awful, nasty and unedible" in describing the compost that comes out of this place labeled as potato, macaroni salad and cole slaw.
You can read about it here
Thanks! BoB!
N/W
Thought I'd add that Canal [on Centre St-JMZ line]used to be a turnback for some short line trains. They'd use the middle tracks Essex thru Bowery to Canal and turn back. IIRC this was the Broadway Short line aka 14 that wan as far as Eastern Pkwy, Atlantic, or some to Canarsie.Ran local in rush hours only and made the stops the Jamaica Express skipped.
All Canarsie trains terminated at Canal St. from the time the Williamsburgh Bridge train tracks opened until 1928. The rush hour specials continued until 1968, when the KK was adopted.
Good point. The 14 was originally designated Broadway-Canarsie until the present Canarsie line was finished.
In the 1925 service guide, it shows the #14 running from Canarsie to Canal 24/7. I often wondered why the outer Fulton St. el never ran any Broadway Brooklyn service, only a special Fulton/14th St rush hour line ...
Canarsie via Bway Brooklyn is the original Canarsie Line elevated operation. The Broadway Brooklyn Line was about at capacity, handling trains from Jamaica, Canarsie and Lutheran. Fulton already had downtown service to Park Row. The 14th Street Line was intended (among other things) to provide a better midtown connection, since the Canal Street transfer to Broadway was stressed to the max.
A few weeks ago, the J was split at Canal over the weekend. Trains to and from the north used the inner tracks. At the approach to Canal, there appears to be a signal that's permanently red.
It was built in stages. The original plan had Jamaica trains terminating at the current southbound platform, Manhattan bridge trains terminating at the current northbound platform, and Canarsie trains terminating at Canal St. When Chambers was made into a thru station in 1931, the current setup was adopted.
I also heard some rumors that the current tail track south of Chambers was actually planned to be used by Brooklyn Bridge trains, coming up from the south and terminating at the center platform.
It's no rumour. From my "Early Rapid Transit in Brooklyn" page:
The Brooklyn Loop Lines concept originated from this idea. Loops would connect to all transit lines running over the Brooklyn Bridge, and the Manhattan and Williamsburgh bridges when transit lines would be constructed over them. The Manhattan portion of the loop would run under Centre Street, but part of the proposed ROW was already in use by the IRT. The proposal was then changed to have a terminal built under a new city office building and it became known as Chambers Street. Construction began on January 27th, 1907. Since the area under construction was at one time a pond that was later filled in, construction of the Municipal Building proved difficult, causing delays in station construction so the foundations could be properly secured. The initial plans for Chambers Street comprised of a four track, five-platform station, later changed to a six-track station with seven platforms. This never came to pass and the original plans were used; however, provision for two additional tracks and pltforms was built into the station at the east end. The westernmost tracks of Chambers Street (the ones closest to the IRT Lexington Ave line), at the south end of the station, were built to curve eastward and climb to connecting ramps onto the Brooklyn Bridge. These ramps were located under the Park Row terminal, and were built, but tracks were never laid on them. The easternmost tracks, at the south end, were to connect to a proposed subway to William Street. On the north end, after a complex series of crossovers, four tracks would continue north to Canal Street and eventually the Williamsburgh Bridge, and the two easternmost tracks would also have a branch to cross the Manhattan Bridge. Chambers Street was built to be a through station that could handle heavy traffic; the outer and center platforms would be used for exit traffic and the remaining inner platforms used for boarding trains. The elevation of the westernmost tracks is higher at the south end of the station than the others, in anticipation of crossing the Brooklyn Bridge.
--Mark
The trackways up to brooklyn bridge are still there. It is a short tunnel with one trackway that spits into two, just south and above the westernmost end of the station where the tracks ramp upward a bit - just beyond the turn there, high on the wall, is the cliff from this trackway down to the active j/m/z.
it's a short segment that ends at a wall, and is inaccessable. Ironically, i recall a bit of track buried in the dirt there - which counters the notion that the trackway was built w/o track. perhaps it was temporary railing? it's been about 4 years, so i don't recall all the details of that place...
Why is the Bowery station so different from the Grand Street station? It has one of the lowest passenger patronages in the subway network, while Grand Street is the complete opposite. Does the lack of passenger patronage have to do with the condition of the surrounding neighborhood? Or, does it have to do with the M service through the Montague tunnel? Bowery seems like an abandon neighborhood that lacks businesses and residential population. It also looks pretty rundown in comparison to Delancey and Grand Streets? What the HELL happened? Can someone give me a little history of this area? It looks like many stations served by the J/M/Z lines are pretty abandon. Does this lack of patronage have to do with the poor service offered by the J/M/Z lines? Or, does it have to do with traveling patterns?
Bowery station's lack of use doesn't have much to do with the quality of the neighborhood. It's not far from the much busier (until recently) Grand Street station. Bowery gets little use because the trains serving it don't go where most people would want to go. It's much easier (again, until recently) to make the short walk to Grand Street for much more useful service.
"Bowery station's lack of use doesn't have much to do with the quality of the neighborhood. It's not far from the much busier (until recently) Grand Street station. Bowery gets little use because the trains serving it don't go where most people would want to go. It's much easier (again, until recently) to make the short walk to Grand Street for much more useful service."
So most people don't want to go to Lower Manhattan from Bowery Street (you can include Delancey Street as well)?
N/W Bwy
There is no Bowery Street. I don't hold it against you, but it's something that concerns me. At least call it Bowery Road.
Bowery station's lack of use doesn't have much to do with the quality of the neighborhood. It's not far from the much busier (until recently) Grand Street station. Bowery gets little use because the trains serving it don't go where most people would want to go. It's much easier (again, until recently) to make the short walk to Grand Street for much more useful service.
So most people don't want to go to Lower Manhattan from Bowery Street (you can include Delancey Street as well)?
Some do, I'm sure, but probably not enough to make the station busy.
The problem with The Bowery stop on the J/M/Z, if you look at a map, is it's the only station in Lower Manhattan without direct northbound access to the midtown Manhattan area. It has some function as a southbound access station when the M is running to Brooklyn, but anyone wanting to go uptown from Bowery/Delancey either has to go one stop south and transfer for the Q/R/W/6 at Canal or one stop east and change for the F at Essex. Might as well just walk to the Grand Street shuttle or the Spring Street stop on the 6...
Very good point. I guess it's not worth walking the extra distance just to go one stop for a transfer or when you can just get somehing at Canal.
And, apparently, it's easier now to walk a few minutes to Canal. As I'd been saying all along.
Historically, The Bowery is a very poor neighborhood. In fact, it was beyond poor, because you can have a poor neighborhood with working people and community cohesiveness. The Bowery is/was the east coast equivalent of Skid Row--a place where people ruined by drunkedness and other misfortune ended up. The word "Bowery" was often connected with the word "bum." The area around the BMT Bowery station has been crappy at least since Third Avenue el days.
Grand Street has recently come up in the world due to the growth of the ethnic Chinese community in the area, encouraged by access to the relatively new Grand Street station.
Dramatic neighborhood transitions aren't that unusual in NYC. Try walking a few blocks up Park Avenue in the 90's.
"The area around the BMT Bowery station has been crappy at least since Third Avenue el days."
The next question is, how did the area get that way, even though it is so close to the financial district?
N/W Bwy
That's a good question. The "el" was blamed for part of the blight, but it's one of many areas that did not improve after the el disappeared.
The general area was a residential district, and a notorious one. The infamous "five points" was just a little west of Chatham Square. There was an apartment house there occupied by criminal elements that was considered so dangerous that when the City finally decided they had to do something about it (late 19th c) they had to assemble a small army of police to incade it.
The gangs in the area with names like The Bowery Boys, the Five Points Gang and The Dead Rabbit Gang may sound colorful now but they would probably have made some of the modern-day Crips and Bloods think twice about taking them on.
The district was not a physically desirable area either. I believe the old Collect Pond was very near and the soil was polluted and unstable. And of course as the social structure deteriorated the people who remained included the most criminal, the toughest and the most desperate.
So you could say The Bowery was not ripe for gentrification.
The el came in at the tail end of the most desperate era of the era and possibly helped keep the area from improving, given its background.
I don't know that the above definitively answers your questions, but it probably points in the right direction.
Thank you so much! This was very helpful!!!
N/W Broadway Lines
Collect Pond was actually to the west of the Bowery, in the area around where the Toombs is and stretching north towards Canal. You can see by the elevation coming off Mott Street in Chinatown that The Bowery is a little higher than the area just to the west.
That doesn't change the fact that the Bowery was pretty awful for its entire length -- one of the worst sections near the turn of the century was at the nothern end, around Bleeker Street, where bars were full of gangs, prostitution and the usual fun stuff associated with derilict areas. Chances are the new Bleeker Street station on the IRT local line in 1904 was considered one of the worst stops on the new system, because it was only a few blocks west of a "high crime" area.
"Chances are the new Bleeker Street station on the IRT local line in 1904 was considered one of the worst stops on the new system, because it was only a few blocks west of a "high crime" area."
How things change....
N/W
Wow... i didn't know anything like this about the city's history until now...
An excellent book called Lights and Shadows of New York life, James McCabe, 1872 with a reprint 100 years later covers much on the topics being discussed here and does it well.
Find it interesting which racial group had the most crime and poverty and they weren't black; abortions, prostitution, corruption to make today's worst look honest, whatever is about now was about then. Only more sophisticated now.
Quote...sound familiar....."the roughs board the [horse]cars, refuse to pay the fare, harass and rob the passengers"....
>>>>>>>>>"Chances are the new Bleeker Street station on the IRT local line in 1904 was considered one of the worst stops on the new system, because it was only a few blocks west of a "high crime" area."
>>>>>>How things change....
They haven't changed that much. Head over to Avenues C & D and you'll think that you're in the South Bronx.
I wasn't talking about Avenue C/D, I was talking about The Bowery. Currently the area around 8th Street is very gentified.
N/W Bwy Lines
The Bowery does seem to have calmed down a bit in recent years. There are fewer flophouses than in years past, and at least during the daytime the restaurant-supply businesses lining the street keep things busy. I also believe that the lower end of Bowery has been more or less subsumed into Chinatown, although I haven't been down there recently to know for sure.
I've seen a few vagrants out there during my several trips to CBGB's - and I've also been to a few meetings there at the clubhouse on Bleecker Street. Quite an experience.
wayne
Saw a bleeding vagrant lying outside CBGBs back in 1979, but I think that said more about the bar than it did about the north Bowery...
Chinatown seems to end abruptly north of Grand street.
Come up for air for a moment. Grand Street is now the Northern end of Chinatown (use to be Canal Street when I was a kid). The trains going south off Grand Street goes to the two Chinese community one off the Sea Beach Line and the other off the Brighton line.
The Bowery area is in a neighbor filled with food service supply stores, lighting shops and storefront sign shops. Plus the Bowery lacks consumer retail shops and garment shops (sweatshops), all of which further encourage the use of Grand Street. In addition the Broadway/Brooklyn lines does not support any sizeable Chinese community like the ones in south Brooklyn.
Virginia Division - BMT
Did the Brooklyn Chinese communities spring up primarily after 1967 when Grand St. opened? Or after 1990 when the south side of the bridge was mostly closed? That would be an interesting correllation.
Did the Brooklyn Chinese communities spring up primarily after 1967 when Grand St. opened? Or after 1990 when the south side of the bridge was mostly closed? That would be an interesting correllation.
As far as I know, Brooklyn Chinatown began to develop as a majpr community in the late 1970's-early 1980's, in other words well after Grand Street. There probably were some "pioneers" in the 'hood before 1967, but it wasn't a community by any standard.
Major growth already was in progress by the time the south side of the bridge closed.
Did the Brooklyn Chinese communities spring up primarily after 1967 when Grand St. opened? Or after 1990 when the south side of the bridge was mostly closed? That would be an interesting correllation.
As far as I know, Brooklyn Chinatown began to develop as a majpr community in the late 1970's-early 1980's, in other words well after Grand Street. There probably were some "pioneers" in the 'hood before 1967, but it wasn't a community by any standard.
Major growth already was in progress by the time the south side of the bridge closed.
I guess I forgot that correlation does not always equal causation. It's been said that that main route between Manhattan and Brooklyn Chinatowns is the N from Canal to 8th Avenue. If that's the case, then it's unlikely that Grand Street would have had much effect on the growth of Brooklyn Chinatown.
According to a recent article in The Times (which is never wrong, being the newspaper of record :-) ) almost all of "old" Chinatown consists of people whose ancestors came from a single northern Chinese province, while the newer communities are Fujianese--southern China.
So it might be as absurb to talk "Chinatowns" as to talk about "Europetowns" when ethnic Italians settle in one area and ethnic Irish settle in another.
We had some Chinese settle in Dickinson (ND) recently (best food ever for North Dakota)... they said they came from the Bronx.... Their language skills suggested otherwise. Most were deported, but one family stayed, and runs the resturant today, their kid is a real doll... great in math... but Chinese language skills are lacking in teachers in North Dakota. But plenty of people willing to help them learn.
Elias
According to a recent article in The Times (which is never wrong, being the newspaper of record :-) ) almost all of "old" Chinatown consists of people whose ancestors came from a single northern Chinese province, while the newer communities are Fujianese--southern China.
So it might be as absurb to talk "Chinatowns" as to talk about "Europetown expanding" when ethnic Italians settle in one area and ethnic Irish settle nearby.
According to a recent article in The Times (which is never wrong, being the newspaper of record :-) ) almost all of "old" Chinatown consists of people whose ancestors came from a single northern Chinese province, while the newer communities are Fujianese--southern China.
So it might be as absurb to talk "Chinatowns" as to talk about "Europetown expanding" when ethnic Italians settle in one area and ethnic Irish settle nearby.
Well, at the risk of offending the Almighty Slimes (okay, you can stop genuflecting), I'll point out that I have read many times of the heavy travel on the N train between Manhattan and Brooklyn Chinatowns. The first mention I can recall was in the book Subway Lives by Jim Dwyer, written in the early 1990's. Maybe the people are from different parts of China, but they evidently ride the subway back and forth between the neighborhoods.
The most common regional Chinese spoken is from Canton China and Cantonese is also spoken in Hong Kong. On the map (as I recall) Canton and Hong Kong is in the south (as in ya'll) part of China.
With the influx of new people from the mainland during the post Mao era, more and more people are coming to America who do not speak Cantonese, and have to adapt a bit to blend in.
And Flushing unlike the Chinatowns in Manhattan and Brooklyn, have mainly immigrants from Taiwan. See, that's why I can't find any CHINESE girls in Flushing. :-0
Um... I don't think they're Taiwanese... they're Korean... :)
Well Flushing is made up of mostly Taiwanese and Koreans.
There are very fer Fujianese people that I know of. Yes, Fujianese people are from southern China, but not the southern tip. There are MANY people from China who are not Fujianese people. In fact, there might even be more people who came from south of Fujianese (or whatever you call the place). The Fujianese place is quite north of the southern tip. (I might be wrong) Please correct any mistakes I might have from this post. This is from my experience and it VERY WELL could be wrong as I've met ONLY 3 people who speak Fujianese.
Please read Phil Hom's reply to Peter Rosa... that's what I meant...
When Grand Street first opened, was it heavily used? How long did it take to catch on?
I don't know, but I wonder if Chrystie St. is what helped make central Brooklyn more minority. As late as the early 70's, almost all of Flatbush was Jewish (except for a strip near the IRT --which runs to Harlem and the Bronx), but then in the mid 70's it suddenly rapidly changed. This was after the D started running through there from Harlem and the Bronx. (Before that, I heard that Park Slope was a poor area. The D had been running there, but then it was replaced by the F. At the same time, the area began coming up.)
It does seem people follow the transit lines when moving to other areas. (Which is why they settled to the area near near the IRT --which runs to Harlem and the Bronx first, and why almost the entire A line has been minority for the longest.) It would be amazing that a short tunnel in Chinatown would have such a drastic effect on all of Brooklyn.
"The D had been running there, but then it was replaced by the F. At the same time, the area began coming up.)"
Would it have to do with the F coming out of Queens in opposed to the Bronx?
N/W
In the case of Park Slope, it's more of a case of people wanting to live in an urbanized environment without Manhattan rents. The brownstone is the prime type of home for these kinds of areas. After Brooklyn Heights, the next geographical area is Park Slope.
I should clarify: Park Slope isn't geographically adjacent to Brooklyn Heights, but I think that Cobble Hill and Boerum Hill were gentrified first.
Park Slope and Cobble Hill gentrified more or less concurrently, with Boerum Hill following later. It seems that Park Slope, at least the area closest to the park, moved more quickly down this path.
Seth
To paraphrase something I once read, Brooklyn Heights is more an extention of Manhattan than a real part of Brooklyn.
Brooklyn Heights looks nothing like the Evil Island, it's unique Brooklyn.
Maybe it looks like the Village, but that's it.
I don't know, but I wonder if Chrystie St. is what helped make central Brooklyn more minority. As late as the early 70's, almost all of Flatbush was Jewish (except for a strip near the IRT --which runs to Harlem and the Bronx), but then in the mid 70's it suddenly rapidly changed. This was after the D started running through there from Harlem and the Bronx. (Before that, I heard that Park Slope was a poor area. The D had been running there, but then it was replaced by the F. At the same time, the area began coming up.)
It does seem people follow the transit lines when moving to other areas. (Which is why they settled to the area near near the IRT --which runs to Harlem and the Bronx first, and why almost the entire A line has been minority for the longest.) It would be amazing that a short tunnel in Chinatown would have such a drastic effect on all of Brooklyn.
Your theory is possible, but I tend to doubt it. I don't see why a direct line to the minority areas of Harlem and the Bronx would make Flatbush more attractive to minorities. Yes, the N train appears to link two Chinatowns, but that's probably due more to trade and work patterns than to race per se. In other words, a Chinese person from Brooklyn Chinatown might very well want to travel to Manhattan's much larger Chinatown to shop, or to work in a restaurant or garment factory. But I don't imagine that a black person from Flatbush would have much occasion to travel to Harlem or the South Bronx on a daily basis.
It is true that Flatbush underwent a massive racial change starting around 1970. Alan Abel, in his book Flatbush Odyssey (which made only scant mention of the subway) likened the change to the partition of India and Pakistan in the 1940's. The most likely reasons included the migration of the Jewish population to the suburbs and other parts of the country, heavy Carribean immigration, and the general unattractiveness of the neighborhood's housing stock (thereby preventing gentrification). And let's not forget the so-called "tipping factor" - when the minority population of a neighborhood reaches a certain percent*, the remaining whites leave at a very fast rate. Whether this phenomenon is due to racial fears or some other factors is debateable, but it definitely exists. Flatbush simply may have been the extreme, 99th percentile case.
* = there is much debate as to what this percentage is; while it varies from city to city and time to time, the best estimates place it around 25%.
I don't see why a direct line to the minority areas of Harlem and the Bronx would make Flatbush more attractive to minorities. Yes, the N train appears to link two Chinatowns, but that's probably due more to trade and work patterns than to race per se. In other words, a Chinese person from Brooklyn Chinatown might very well want to travel to Manhattan's much larger Chinatown to shop, or to work in a restaurant or garment factory. But I don't imagine that a black person from Flatbush would have much occasion to travel to Harlem or the South Bronx on a daily basis.
Relatives. And to a certain extent, to use businesses they were accustomed to, that were not yet available in the new area. And they wouldn't have had to travel daily; the point was what made them move in that direction in the first place. Also, sinc the D also went to Coney Island, this too made the neigborhood "in the way" and very conveniently located. So one could go search for a place to live on the way to a day at the beach or rides.
Alan Abel, in his book Flatbush Odyssey (which made only scant mention of the subway) likened the change to the partition of India and Pakistan in the 1940's. The most likely reasons included the migration of the Jewish population to the suburbs and other parts of the country, heavy Carribean immigration,
I do know there were alot of older Jewish people, and when they died off, that further opened up the area. The same thing has been happening in Ridgewood now.
I don't know what India and Pakistan would have to do with it. (They may own stores there, but not alot of them live there)
The way for the Carribean influx in the late 70's (from Crown Heights) was paved by the American Blacks earlier in the 70's.
>and the general unattractiveness of the neighborhood's housing stock (thereby preventing gentrification).
The housing over there is beautiful: both the homes and the design of thr apartments. Most of it was originally luxury. I certainly miss that over here in the long cramped rowhouses of Ridgewood (though they look nice on the outside).
The fact that Flatbush has so many rental apartments, is also what spread minorities. Areas or privately owned houses are harder to get into, which would explain thinghs like why areas along the D-Culver didn't change when it was running there.
Alan Abel, in his book Flatbush Odyssey (which made only scant mention of the subway) likened the change to the partition of India and Pakistan in the 1940's. The most likely reasons included the migration of the Jewish population to the suburbs and other parts of the country, heavy Carribean immigration
I don't know what India and Pakistan would have to do with it. (They may own stores there, but not alot of them live there)
He used India and Pakistan as an analogy - after the end of British rule, there was a huge amount of internal migration as Muslims moved to Pakistan and Hindus to India. Flatbush's racial change in the 1970's was sort of like the same thing though on a far smaller scale.
I guess the key word was likened, which in my rush I missed.
long cramped rowhouses of Ridgewood
These are known as Matthews Flats. The following is from the Newsday website:
Claim to Fame: Parts of Ridgewood, combined with sections of Middle Village, Maspeth and Glendale, make up the largest listing on the National Register of Historic Places, with 2,980 buildings. Most of the historic area consists of rows of Renaissance and Romanesque Revival tenements and rowhouses, built in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.
They also have them in parts of Astoria. Nicer are the two story townhouses with the round bay windows, around Fresh Pond. They are similar inside to the Matthews, but there is only one apartment per floor and the bedroom is wider, the other rooms are layed out nicer, and a bathroom up front next to the bedroom, as well as in the rear. (The bay window is the bedroom, and the straight window above the front door is the bathroom). The Matthews only have one bathroon in the rear, away from the bedroom.
The only problem, once again, is the transit on weekends.
Still, all of these are nothing like the 1920's and later Flatbuch apartments. I guess I was spoiled growing up in one of those (I thought that was "average", but I see they were above average.)
Take your pick of several Brooklyn neighborhoods and perhaps even a little of the Bronx you'll find these architectural gems [Matthews flats] too. I've been in a few, I think my only problem would be no windows in the middle rooms, but having them semi-detached would cure that. But those aren't as common. I hope they last as long as there are people there!
The ones around here do have a light shaft in the middle, which has 3 windows for each building (one facing sideways, one facing the front and one facing the back. In order they are one in the living room, one in the small room next to it coming towards the front, the other in the next room. The other rooms are the master bedroom in the front and the bathroom and kitchen in the rear.) The problem is that these windows face the opposite windows in the next building, and they are right there (of course, many tenements have this, specially in Manhattan, where the shafts are even narrower).
If you are lucky, you can get a building that was designed as the end of a row (either on the corner of the cross street, or even n the middle of a block). These have windows all along one side, and don't have the indentation where a shaft would be, so the middle rooms will have more space, as well as more light.
The Jews aren't a minority?
Much of Flatbush still is heavily Jewish. Look at the area surrounding the Avenue J and Avenue M stops on the Q.
The Jews aren't a minority?
Minorities in the United States have jack squat to do with population and everything to do with economic status.
Well, over there on the other side of the Bay Ridge tracks is not really Faltbush. It's more like Midwood, even though it's close, and definitely on the Flatbush grid. I was talking about the whole central area of Flatbush, including the Flatbush Av. strip (even extending across the track now)
Heheh....there's confusion here based on the fact that "Jewish Flatbush" isn't *Real* flatbush...
For some reason, the Jewish communities of Ditmas Park, Midwood, East Midwood, Ocean PArkway, Kings Highway, etc. have always considered themselves to be living in "Flatbush". It's not geographically correct, but I'm not complaining. I went to a jewish school for h.s. and elementary school called Yeshiva of Flatbush - in midwood! :)
"In addition the Broadway/Brooklyn lines does not support any sizeable Chinese community like the ones in south Brooklyn."
More clarification needed please. What do you mean the Broadway/Bklyn lines does not support any sizable Chinese community like the ones in south Blkyn? Do you mean the N/R/ now Q and W lines. Or the J/M/Z? And what part of south Blkyn are you talking about. Your talking about options: B,D,Q vs JMZ? Thanks again for your response when given.
N/W Broadway Lines
I general don't like to use letters on the lines as the letters are meaningless as it changes (D was Culver, now it's Brighton). The Broadway/Brooklyn line I'm speaking of goes over the Willie B and on to Broadway (in Brooklyn), not Broadway in Manhattan. While considering the J service, which runs on the Jamaica El, down Broadway Brooklyn, across the Willie B into Manhattan, there are no sizeable Chinese community along the Eastern Division of the BMT. New communities are found along the Southern Division BMT.
There is a sizeable Chinese ridership on the M to the Seneca area. This area is mostly Hispanic, but there are some Chinese, who travel to Chinatown, and they used make up most of the riders on the last M's to Broad (which now aren't the last anymore.)
NOW I GOT IT!
The Bowery doesn't seem very intimidating, at least during daylight. The lighting stores and all seem like early stages of gentrification, no?
I guess most people don't like going into that area. Bowery is pretty rundown and empty.
"I guess most people don't like going into that area. Bowery is pretty rundown and empty."
It sure is, but why? With all the damn gentification going on in the lower eastside (and elsewhere), I would think that this area would be the first area to receive some improvements.
N/W Broadway Lines
don't pay attention, go there, see for yourself
As I recently posted on the Straphangers.org board on the M (subject was about the extended M being empty but it also would apply to Bowery):
I think it was not properly publicized, and was a last minute second thought. The minute Grand Street riders began complaining, the TA should have shouted back that the Bowery was right around the corner. Instead, they panicked and proposed shuttle buses from Canal, which are now implemented, along with a bus to DeKalb. These seem to have gotten more publicity. But why should people get up out of the subway and change modes of transportation, when another connected subway goes right around the corner? But that's probably what they are all doing (does anyone know how much riders these buses are getting?). Too many competing alternatives water down all the alternatives.
If they had promoted it right, and perhaps built a connection to Bowery (a plan the was proposed to alleviate crowding on the Grand St. entrances, but was passed over, in favor of just an additional stairway), they could have gotten away with closing the station, and not having to run the one stop shuttle, encouraging the people to use the Bowery and ride that same one stop from to Essex for the F, and also be able to ride one stop the otherway to Canal for the Bridge, or stay on the M for a one seat ride to the former B route. Also, the M provides a connection to the lower IND totally skipped over by the overhyped 34th St. connection: Fulton for the A, C to W4th, etc. Also eliminates the long 41st St passage for access to 8th Av. Many people at Pacific ask for these IND destinations on weekends when neither the M or W runs.
All of this would have brought many riders to the line, [and Bowery station, also making it safer!] but it seems they are not really encouraging it, but giving it [extended M service] to them (partly-- weekdays only) to quiet peoples' cries, yet it will "prove" itself worthless, thus justifying not being run at all.
"If they had promoted it right, and perhaps built a connection to Bowery (a plan the was proposed to alleviate crowding on the Grand St. entrances, but was passed over, in favor of just an additional stairway), they could have gotten away with closing the station, and not having to run the one stop shuttle, encouraging the people to use the Bowery and ride that same one stop from to Essex for the F, and also be able to ride one stop the otherway to Canal for the Bridge, or stay on the M for a one seat ride to the former B route. Also, the M provides a connection to the lower IND totally skipped over by the overhyped 34th St. connection: Fulton for the A, C to W4th, etc. Also eliminates the long 41st St passage for access to 8th Av. Many people at Pacific ask for these IND destinations on weekends when neither the M or W runs"
YOUR RIGHT! The "Broadway Brooklyn" lines does provide a better connection to other lines in comparison to the former B,D and Q at Grand Street. But one wonders why the "BB" lines aren't popular with passengers.
N/W Broadway LINES
As I said, they don't promote them, neither to the southern div. riders (who they give shuttle buses, etc.) or eastern div. riders (who get improved L service, except when all this signal work replaces it with shuttlew buses.)
I've passed by Bowery and Delancy/Kenmare Street a lot and I've NEVER seen the Bowery station. I only recently found out about it by looking for directions in Streets and there popped up the Bowery Station. I've even been to the station and forgot about it. I was coming from Jamaica and going to Canal to transfer to the N. Well, the area that the Station's in is not so bad on the street, and how someone got mugged there, could only be because there are very few people there. The reason why there are SOOO many less riders at Bowery and SOOO many more at Grand is because Grand St. is right at Chinatown. Sure, you can say that the J/M/Z Canal St. station is right in the middle of Chinatown, but the J/M/Z comes from places that don't have chinese people. There are MANY chinese people who are near the West End line. There are also quite a few near the D/Q (or the former D/Q). Many are also in Coney Island so they come from there. Others from Queens can somehow take something and end up on an F and transfer to a former B/D/Q. That's how Grand St. has many more riders. However, many chinese people are near the N, but they don't go to Canal. They don't like the Montague tunnel because they had to pass through Brooklyn Heights and lower Manhattan which took too much time. The riders would rather just transfer to something and get off at Grand St. I wrote a lot, but hopefully it clears things up. :)
I remember seeing an entrance to the Bowery station at Kenmare St. In those days, the side railing was simply marked, "SUBWAY". Same thing at Essex St.
>>> Bowery patronage has nearly quadrupled. There were four people on the platform other than me on Friday, up from one the previous week at the same time. <<<
Oops! Back to basic arithmetic class. From 2 riders to 5 riders is only an increase of 2-1/2 times the number of riders. :-)
Tom
Yeah Bowery was and is still pretty empty. And when I did take the M from there to Brooklyn last week it was empty. If people don't start using the Bowery for the M then the TA may very well decide to cut it back to rush hours. And rightfully so, as all M trains I have seen in Brooklyn at midday are EMPTY.
I apologize for the error about the 111st incident, as usual the news got it wrong.
If you ride the line once, that doesn't make you an expert on ANYTHING. "Railfanning" will teach you almost nothing about New York and its people
Ahem I ride the 7 usually everytime I visit the city, as well as the N and W (used to be Q pre-flip).
Of course after my recent rides on the 7, I'm gonna cut down on riding that line.
Are you sure it's the line, or your own social skills which need improving?
"If you ride the line once, that doesn't make you an expert on ANYTHING"
You got that right (SEVEN-up)!! no need to hear from people who think they know when they NO-Thing!
May the RASTA be with you MON...
I and I, Jah be with you too
Just as bad as ENY/Brownsville?????
Livonia, Sutter, Pennsylvania!!! come on now what gives. You're comparing these two neighborhoods. I know that ENY/Brownsville is gentrifying itself, many new townhouses are going up but I wouldn't go that far in comparing the two areas.
<<>>>
Wow, I can't even start to explain how false this is. It shows either a) you don't know much about both Corona and Bowery, and about the lower east side property values and prefrences of people of this city b) you've been sheltered by your mother too long (sorry just had to say it) some colombians getting in a fight over a soccer match does not signify a bad neighborhood, please back up your statements with some fact, those statements being deeming corona and lower east side/Bowery bad neighborhoods.
It's a number of incidents in the recent year or two that I am hearing about in the Corona/Flushing area, not just the one.
Hey we all have our opinions, but my opinion is the Corona/Flushing area is getting more dangerous. Flushing used to be much busier with shoppers a few years ago, lately it's just a place where people are transferring from bus/subway and vice versa. I even have text from an article (in Newsday I think) about people who live in the Flushing area shopping more in Roosevelt Field and Rego Park because of the dirt, pollution and crime of downtown Flushing.
As far as the 7 train itself, it may come often but it's the most crowded, filfthy train in the system.
The 7 train is not that filfthy at all. Try riding the C local or J. Anyway, as for the Bowery (Because I use that station often) its really not a bad station. I have been there all hours of the night waiting for a J train. No one ever bothers me because no one is ever there. And YES I do wait on the platform :)
""Personally I think Corona is just as bad as the ENY/Brownsville sections, as well as Bed-Sty. Bowery station area is just a ghostown, but it's kinda seedy as well""
Wow, I can't even start to explain how false this is. It shows either a) you don't know much about both Corona and Bowery, and about the lower east side property values and prefrences of people of this city b) you've been sheltered by your mother too long (sorry just had to say it) some colombians getting in a fight over a soccer match does not signify a bad neighborhood, please back up your statements with some fact, those statements being deeming corona and lower east side/Bowery bad neighborhoods.
Along 111st shooting, there have been several notable incidents in the Corona area by Roosevelt avenue. An immigrant was stabbed and robbed earlier this year in broad daylight, I believe near the 111st station as well. Also one of the news shows (channel 5 I believe) did a follow up story to many Corona residents complaints about gang activity and prostitution. They went undercover into hidden prostitution rings to find many hispanic immigrant women being used for sex. In many cases landlords did not know this activity was going on.
If widespread gang and prostitution doesn't make an area bad, then what does?
There is no question that Corona faces some challenges. But if you form your impression from watching television and reading the tabloids, then all you're proving is that you don't know how to evaluate information critically. Watch Maury Povich enough and you'd think most American women are underage and sleeping with their stepfathers. That's called being gullible.
Murders happen everywhere, though the TV news don't always get there to cover it. Murders most often happen between people who know each other and there's usually a reason for it (though never condonable or excusable).
Part of the problem in parts of western Queens is that once people leave the factories for the day, there's no reason to be there, so gangs figure it's OK to congregate.
There are good ways to deal with it, and it's up to the community to employ them.Visit South-Central LA sometime. You'll think Corona is a picnic by comparison.
Well L.A. is much more dangerous than NYC overall, especially South Central and East LA.
Statistically, that is correct.
Also one of the news shows (channel 5 I believe) did a follow up story to many Corona residents complaints about gang activity and prostitution. They went undercover into hidden prostitution rings to find many hispanic immigrant women being used for sex. In many cases landlords did not know this activity was going on.
Of course the landlords are going to say that they didn't know anything. Most of them probably were collecting payoffs in return for looking the other way.
Wasn't our host calling 1999 "The last summer of the Redbirds?"
It's 2001. Anyone know what the current proportions of Redbird vs. R142 on different lines is?
The Times today, in talking about Mayoral candidate Bloomberg quoted a TA source as saying all the Redbirds could be gone "by the end of 2001." Is that possible? I though they hadn't even ordered replacements for them all yet.
I think the concensus here is that they will be around through 2002.
Getting rid of all the remaining Redbirds in five months sounds like it would really be a rush job. I would think at least some of them will be around until next spring, or possibly longer, if the MTA decided to keep a few around to augment rush hour service during a guberantorial election year.
Unlike the reported demise of MetroNorth's beloved 1100's as far back as 3 years ago, with fairwell trips, the replacement of Redbirds is very much in evidence these days, with cars being removed daily with the arrivals of R142/ 142A. Cars are concspicuously showing up in many yards and storage facilities. A train operator on Pelham just today informed me that the 6 line could be all new cars very soon. Former R36 Flushing cars that were on Pelham are in Concourse yards. If you are truly concerned, go see while you can.
Joe C.
I'll miss the Redbirds. but not a great deal. I hope the R142s are a lot better.
>I hope the R142s are a lot better.
That's a very steep, very bottomless,
H O P E there, Paul.
because you are biased against them. and when they do come out of their falling apart phase, which is around the corner, you will be eating your words like MTV does when they say an artist is washed up when they are not.
Not too often do we experience the arrival and departure of a car type. The birth and death, if you will. When the various forms of "redbirds" arrived in their original configurations, it was exciting. The future was here. These are the cars of my "growing up" years, arriving at first while I was in the 6th grade and ending in my high school "world's fair" years. It was the arrival of something new replacing equipment that was around way before many of us were. (Many of us remember even earlier "smee" equipment being new.) These cars went through the gamut. Original appearances in brilliant red and/ or olive green (with coral seats),the trend toward painting nearly everything bright red, the black-like steel dust covering the exteriors making them all look alike, the pseudo-stainless steel silver with blue of the early 1970's, the impact of the grafitti era, the near downfall and decay of the entire system in the very early 1980's, the resurgence of the system and the white IRT trains of the latter part of the 1980's, and finally the turning around of the entire system to where it should have been and the simultaneous rebirth and transformation of over 1000 cars into what we would eventually call "redbirds". They soldiered on, perhaps through more "thick and thin" than any class before them, and certainly any to come. As the Lo-v was perhaps synonymous with "IRT" in the minds of many, I believe the multi-class "redbirds" will linger on in much the same way.
Joe C.
I suppose in a way, the R-26 through R-46 cars are the equivalent of what Tom Brokaw called "The Greatest Generation" in his book -- the group that had to live through growing up during the Depression, then turn right around and fight World War II. The cars built between 1959 and 1976 had to live through the worst of the deferred maintenance period of the late 1960s and 1970s, coupled with the graffiti epidemic of the 70s and early 80s.
They definitely lived through the Dark Ages of the New York City Transit Authority, and I don't doubt they took about five working years off the lives not only of at least half the current group of `birds, but also off the R-30/40/40M/42 class of subway cars as well.
I suppose in a way, the R-26 through R-46 cars are the equivalent of what Tom Brokaw called "The Greatest Generation" in his book -- the group that had to live through growing up during the Depression, then turn right around and fight World War II. The cars built between 1959 and 1976 had to live through the worst of the deferred maintenance period of the late 1960s and 1970s, coupled with the graffiti epidemic of the 70s and early 80s.
They definitely lived through the Dark Ages of the New York City Transit Authority, and I don't doubt they took about five working years off the lives not only of at least half the current group of `birds, but also off the R-30/40/40M/42 class of subway cars as well.
Dunno. All of the car classes you mention except for the R-30's (and presumably the R-27's too) will have lasted close to 40 years before being scrapped. That doesn't seem too bad in my book. And most of them might have ended up lasting years longer a la the R-32's if they'd been built of stainless steel.
If they had been all stainless steel no doubt they would have lasted a few more years. But the original IRT high-Vs lasted about a half-century and the last of the Standards made it to 45 years old, so there was some life-shortening, IMHO, by the abuse the cars had to endure between the mid-60s and the mid-80s.
And let's not forget the 21/22s- they died just just short of 30 years!!
A bunch of 12/14s had also been scrapped or converted to work service by the early 70s, when they were only in their early 30s..
Some main-line R-36s are also on the Flushing Line now.
--Mark
> Wasn't our host calling 1999 "The last summer of the Redbirds?"
Yeah yeah yeah. At the time, that was supposed to have been true.
-Dave
I was surprised by the assertion at the time, since I never remembered any class of cars going so quickly, and it was my understanding that the Flushing cars would be around a few more years. I'm amazed as it is by the speed with which the Redbirds are going.
I guess you meant "on the IRT mainline"(?) anyway. I hadn't thought of that.
From what I've heard, all redbirds on all IRTs, including the 7, are on their way out. The R142/R142A option order saw to that.
:-) Andrew
Well, the text on that page read (and still does), "by the summer of 2000 the R142's will begin displacing these old beasts". I didn't claim they'd be gone. As it turns out the displacement didn't really start to happen in a really visible manner until this year.
I really agree with the "old beast" part. :-)
Maybe you could do a post-scrapum on them called "The Birds and the Beasts."
i was not aware of the redbirds being called a "beast" & or a repusive redbird"!!! its like you folks have assigned a
satanic cult personality to a subway car ! ..lol..! ( howevber i forgot this is the r-142 god worship church here ) lol !!
i say bring back the good old r-17s & r-21-22s !! ( the design with all new parts ) last time i was in nyc the redbirds did
not look like a "beast" & or "repussive" !! old maybe but i was very glad to see them again !! woooooppppppe lol !!
Why not bring back small pox while you're at it?
MATT-2AV
P.S.:The R-17, R-21, and rustbirds belong in the museum. The R-142(a) belongs on the road.
I love the redbirds just like everyone else but for real these trains are starting to look horrible!! especially my line the 5 even though we get some R-62 and R-62A's and some 2 line leftovers some of these trains you touch the rust crumbles in your hand.I grew up with these trains, and I'm not too crazy about the R-142's,but I have to accept them and move on I was reading somewhere on the post that the 5 line might not get the R-142's.I think we will simply because the R-142's will be serviced out of Unionport,but I dont know.The Bombardier R-142 ride better than The Kamasaki's so bring them on.I'm a redbird fan these trains look chewed up.
wrong again i said as a suggestion ( all new ) but using the blueprints of the cars you call rust ''' ........!!
man those r-142s are sure ugly-------- woooooo !
"as a suggestion ( all new ) but using the blueprints of the cars you call rust "
Why?
MATT-2AV
Oh, I almost forgot,
wooooo, heeheeheee, lol.....!!!!!
Oh, I almost forgot,
( u do not have to if u dont want ) ...
wooooo, heeheeheee, lol.....!!!!!
well , why not ?? keep the original beautiful subway look but all new !!
how about some new low vs and high vs ? ..........lol !!
for the Hi & Lo v's, you would have to go to the Smithsonian Institute for the blueprints and metalurgical data! LOL!!!
I accompanied you on that field trip ... the video from that trip was cleverly named "Redbird Country".
At least I have some more time before I have to rename by "endangered species" videos to "extinct" :)
--Mark
Wasn't our host calling 1999 "The last summer of the Redbirds?"
Yes. But rest assured that 2001 will be "The last summer of the Redbirds." : (
It's 2001. Anyone know what the current proportions of Redbird vs. R142 on different lines is?
The rarity of the R142A and the R142's currently are as follows:
(approx. measures)
#2 line: Ratio = 1:5-7 trains are an R142. More or less.
#6 line: Ratio = 1:6-8 trains are an R142. More or less.
#3 line:
#5 line: ---> R142's are NOT planned to travel on these lines.
So far, (according to the official Bombardier website), MTA has ordered about 1,030 subway cars of the R142 type. Notice that Bombardier is the manufacturer of the R142's on the #2 line
Pointer: Do not guarantee the TA statements in this kind of situation. If you ever come across pictures of scrap/rail yards, you'll see that many Redbird (but not most) have already had their doors, windows, and rollsigns removed from them. They're sitting there for the time being, waiting to be:
1) scrapped
2) placed overboard in the Atlantic (W/F #7 Flushing line cars)
3) placed in the transit museum
4) (Restored Redbirds only) Open for sale.
Long live the Redbirds! (And I mean it..)
: )
Railfan Pete.
Wasn't our host calling 1999 "The last summer of the Redbirds?"
Yes. But rest assured that 2001 will be "The last summer of the Redbirds." : (
It's 2001. Anyone know what the current proportions of Redbird vs. R142 on different lines is?
The rarity of the R142A and the R142's currently are as follows:
(approx. measures)
#2 line: Ratio = 1:5-7 trains are an R142. More or less.
#6 line: Ratio = 1:6-8 trains are an R142. More or less.
#3 line:
#5 line: ---> R142's are NOT planned to travel on these lines. (Some exceptions and ideas have been made for the #5 line)
So far, (according to the official Bombardier website), MTA has ordered about 1,030 subway cars of the R142 type. Notice that Bombardier is the manufacturer of the R142's on the #2 line
Pointer: Do not guarantee the TA statements in this kind of situation. If you ever come across pictures of scrap/rail yards, you'll see that many Redbird (but not most) have already had their doors, windows, and rollsigns removed from them. They're sitting there for the time being, waiting to be:
1) scrapped
2) placed overboard in the Atlantic (W/F #7 Flushing line cars)
3) placed in the transit museum
4) (Restored Redbirds only) Open for sale.
Long live the Redbirds! (And I mean it..)
: )
Railfan Pete.
NICE POST !! ....lol !!
i agree with you .
<<#5 line: ---> R142's are NOT planned to travel on these lines. (Some exceptions and ideas have been made for the #5 line) >>
I beg to differ, but isn't the #5 train supposed to get all R-142's? After all, it is practically all Redbirds now. And scrapping all the redbirds is part of the agenda.
Unless the R62A's from Pelham are given to Dyre instead of #7? What else would the #5 have?
beg to differ, but isn't the #5 train supposed to get all R-142's? After all, it is practically all Redbirds now. And scrapping all the redbirds is part of the agenda.
Unless the R62A's from Pelham are given to Dyre instead of #7? What else would the #5 have?
This just in, but according to the updated news:
The #3 and #5 lines WERE initially NOT assigned cars of the R142(A) type. However, the MTA has decided to expand its fleet, causing the myriad of R142(A)'s on the #2 and #6 lines to spill over onto the #3 and #5 lines.
In the meantime, The R62(A)'s on the #3 and #5 lines will push out onto the #7 Flushing line for service. I thought in a newspaper article I read they were replacing that line with "high-technological trains" as of September 2000. (Thanks to Harry for the article).
Please Note: The R142(A)'s were ORIGINALLY assigned to the #2's and #6's. Therefore, the #3 and #5 will NOT get R142(A)'s from the initial lines which are required for their service (maintenance, rush-hour service, normal service, periodical storage, etc.) I don't know if R142(A)'s are going to be in FULL-TIME service for these two lines, as I don't know if MTA ordered enough cars to do so on THEIR rush-hour, maintenance, storage, and normal service hour trains.
Hope this clears up any confusion.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The 5 only has 3 R62A's
The 5 only has 3 R62A's.
Sorry for the misinterpretation. No wonder I always came across a Redbird with my dad and my family when we waited for the #5. Well, in that case, we'll have to wait for further accurate updates from a good expert of NYCT authority.
Does anyone know what will happen to the Redbirds on the #5 line? Would they sink also with the Flushing line cars?
Hold on tight until they come...
Railfan Pete.
Hope this clears up any confusion.
No, it doesn't.
Why don't you stop talking about things of which you know NOTHING about.
Look at you fat munch. I don't see you responding in any of these with intelligent thoughts of your own about this R142 car assignment issue. Post something intelligent and then I'll take further notice.
Railfan Pete.
You're obviously a fat bastard who is in denial about his own weight, otherwise you wouldn't use it as a tool to put somebody down, not knowing what the person really looks like.
I have nothing to prove to you.
>>The #3 and #5 lines WERE initially NOT assigned cars of the R142(A) type. However, the MTA has decided to expand its fleet, causing the myriad of R142(A)'s on the #2 and #6 lines to spill over onto the #3 and #5 lines.<<
Hmmm. That's funny. Let's provide some facts here:
Rush hour trains needed:
Line (AM/PM) no.of cars
2= 31/29 310/290 cars
3= 24/23 216/207 cars* (240/230 cars)*
5= 31/28 310/280 cars
6= 37/38 370/380 cars
In total, max cars needed: 1206
Initial order (w/o change order/options exercised)=1,080
Now then, let's continue this math lesson:
1,080-310=770
770-380=390
So, what you're saying is that the TA planned on having 390 extra cars lying around? No, the initial order would have made the 2,5 and 6 lines R-142. The 5 was an initial line. There would have been 80 extra cars if you throw in the 5 line, and that's enough for the spare fleets of the 2,5,6. And, the 2 and 5 are both operated from E180/Wakefield. Their trains are often switched between lines, depending on the rush hour needs. So, would it have made sense to replace both the 2 and 5, no?
If the options were not exercised, the only redbirds still around would have been some of the Corona redbirds. After the option, the 3 also is supposed to see some of the R-142's. Even the 4 is supposed to get some R-142A's.
So, uh, for your own sake, make sure you have the facts before you post stuff.
"Hope this clears up any confusion"
Last Sunday, (not yesterday), I spotted the grandeur Comet IV car #5009 on the outermost tracks leading to/from Sunnyside Yard, just outside of Penn Sta. NY. It had been reconnected to several NJT owned Comet IV rail cars with Comet III's and was standing there without any engineer or employee. Sorry I don't know the ALP-44 locomotive's #.
Then yesterday, I saw the Comet IV car #5009, trundling and trailing the train down the Hoboken rail towards Hoboken! Whoa, what an experience! The Comet IV car was reattached again with a set of Comet 3's along the way...
If anyone is an NJT expert on this, maybe they can provide some background info. on how this happened and maybe when.
Railfan Pete.
Train sets get broken up all the time. I guess they need to pull as few cars as possible for servicing therefore the available cars get coupled and recoupled on a frequent basis. The NJT Comets are all singles so it's no big deal to chop the trains up.
I was on PATH car 748 "Town of Kearny" twice last week, two days in a row. First time it was the head car, second time buried in the middle of the train. I'd guess PATH does the same thing.
Also that same #5009 train was sitting at Gladstone rail yard many Saturdays ago. I guess PATH and NJT really has a business of "breaking things up". Thanks for the info. David.
However, next time I see that grandeur #5009, I'll inform anyone who wants to know.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Oh, David. I forgot to mention to you but the reason why #5009 is so special is because it formerly belonged to the MTA AFTER it was delivered and painted for NJT service. The #5009 has been unanimously traded for TWO Comet II rail cars that was to belong to NJT after returning from its refurbishing site in Maryland.
If you get a slim chance to see it, you'll see that THREE of NJT's tri-colored stripes are missing and it has NARROW black-lining, NOT the WIDE ones. The side still has burned outlines of "M, Metro-North Commuter Railroad", and the INTERIOR of it has changed very much. It has wood coverings instead of solid, textural colors.
And I also saw (before Gladstone rail yard) that same train trundling TO AND FRO New York to Trenton at Metuchen. So it was special. But unfortunately, I don't think I'll see the #5009 on the NEC, but here's hoping.
Thank you for the pre-modified photo of Comet car #5009. I really appreciate it, especially I like them painted for NJT better than for MTA.
Best Regards,
Railfan Pete.
Oh, David. I forgot to mention to you but the reason why #5009 is so special is because it formerly belonged to the MTA AFTER it was delivered and painted for NJT service. The #5009 has been unanimously traded for TWO Comet II rail cars that was to belong to NJT after returning from its refurbishing site in Maryland.
If you get a slim chance to see it, you'll see that THREE of NJT's tri-colored stripes are missing and it has NARROW black-lining, NOT the WIDE ones. The side still has burned outlines of "M, Metro-North Commuter Railroad", and the INTERIOR of it has changed very much. It has wood coverings instead of solid, textural colors.
And I also saw (before Gladstone rail yard) that same train trundling TO AND FRO New York to Trenton at Metuchen. So it was special. But unfortunately, I don't think I'll see the #5009 on the NEC, but here's hoping.
Thank you for the pre-modified photo of Comet car #5009. I really appreciate it, especially I like them painted for NJT better than for MTA.
Best Regards,
Railfan Pete.
Oh, David. I forgot to mention to you but the reason why #5009 is so special is because it formerly belonged to the MTA AFTER it was delivered and painted for NJT service. The #5009 has been unanimously traded for TWO Comet II rail cars that was to belong to NJT after returning from its refurbishing site in Maryland.
If you get a slim chance to see it, you'll see that THREE of NJT's tri-colored stripes are missing and it has NARROW black-lining, NOT the WIDE ones. The side still has burned outlines of "M, Metro-North Commuter Railroad", and the INTERIOR of it has changed very much. It has wood coverings instead of solid, textural colors.
And I also saw (before Gladstone rail yard) that same train trundling TO AND FRO New York to Trenton at Metuchen. So it was special. But unfortunately, I don't think I'll see the #5009 on the NEC, but here's hoping.
Thank you for the pre-modified photo of Comet car #5009. I really appreciate it, especially I like them painted for NJT better than for MTA.
Best Regards,
Railfan Pete.